<p>One simple way to make this happen would be to make ogres unable to raise their tongues to the roof of their mouths.<br />
[i] and [j] both require that, so they are now impossible for ogres.<br />
Most of the other sounds you mentioned ([a], [o], [u], [ø], [ɑ̃], [ɔ̃] and [w], if I counted correctly) do not use a raised tongue and are still possible.<br />
The only problem would be [y], [ɥ]. (That second one is the IPA symbol for the labio-palatal approximant, the French ui.) I propose that you could open [ø] to the open front vowel [œ] and lower [y] to the now-unused mid front vowel [ø]. On the other hand, I admit, I don't know how to best take care of [ɥ] here.</p>
<p>Another way would be to just say that the ogres can't raise their tongues without also rounding their lips, that <em>might</em> be biologically feasible, and it would allow [y] and [ɥ], while ruling out [i] and [j]. (Rounded [j͗] would still be possible.)</p>
<p>On the very other hand, if you're just wondering whether it could naturally happen: Probably. According to <a href="https://phoible.org/parameters" rel="noreferrer">Phoible</a>, 92% of human languages have [i] and 90% have [j], so it stands to reason that at least about 1%, i.e. one or two dozen (!) languages, have neither. Lacking both of them is therefore still naturalistic.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-06-16T21:28:35.440Z
Inability to raise the tongue sounds like it could work - though I guess you might as well call it not having a tongue altogether. That would also limit the available consonants, which could be interesting. A humanoid losing its tongue through evolution sounds rather implausible however.
Domino
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-06-16T23:04:37.953Z
@Domino I suppose I could've gone with "ogres don't have tongues", but it seemed OP wanted them to have phonetic capabilities as close to human ones as possible.
Cecilia
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-06-24T17:01:21.433Z
The roundedness might be the solution. Except for [a], all vowels in the described language are rounded. Maybe their lips could just be naturally rounded, so that unrounded vowels would be harder to pronounce and roundedness the default, resulting in [y] and [ɥ] to be more likely than [i] and [j].
Lukas G
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-06-25T12:21:09.510Z
@LukasG Ah, lovely; yes, that'd be a good solution too!
Cecilia
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-06-16T18:26:05.040Z
2022-06-16T18:26:05.040Z
Cecilia
<p>Lacking <code>/j/</code> and <code>[j]</code> is entirely plausible, no explanation needed. Attic Greek, for example, lost <code>[j]</code> and did just fine without it for hundreds of years.</p>
<p>Lacking <code>[i]</code> is harder to explain. There's a strong tendency for vowels to expand to fill the available space, metaphorically speaking. Human languages are under a lot of evolutionary pressure to convey as much information as possible without exceeding the limits of our auditory systems, so if there's a way to convey more information without causing problems for processing, languages will use it.</p>
<p>What this means is, since <code>[i]</code> is very easy for humans to hear, human languages tend to make use of it in one way or another. Even if a language doesn't have <code>/i/</code>, <code>[i]</code> will tend to appear as an allophone of something else. This is why it appears in so many different languages. For example, Ubykh is generally analyzed as having only two vowel phonemes, a high one and a low one, but that high one will still surface as <code>[i]</code> to convey more information about the surrounding consonants.</p>
<p>If you don't want any <code>[i]</code> sound in your language, while still being naturalistic, you'll probably want to invoke some physical reason. The speakers of your language, from the sound of it, are biologically different from modern humans. You could simply make <code>[i]</code> difficult for them to produce or distinguish, for various reasons—Richard suggests production difficulties but you could also invoke some perception difficulties. The human ear is tuned to be more sensitive to some frequencies than others, and perhaps the large gap between the formants in <code>[i]</code> is not as distinctive to them as it is to us.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-06-17T21:27:38.213Z
2022-06-17T21:27:38.213Z
Draconis
<p>What I mean is the sound /j/ (as in English <em>yellow</em> and French <em>hyène</em> 'hyena') is the most common semivowel around the world. This phoneme is highly conserved in Indo-European languages (this language family include Italic languages like French and Italian, Germanic languages like English and Dutch, Slavic languages like Russian and Polish, etc.).</p>
<p>Also, the sound /i/ (as in English <em>hippie</em>) (the word <em>hippie</em> is also used in French) in one of the most, if not the most common vowel around the world.</p>
<p>Both phonemes are almost universal, as is the consonant /m/ (as in English <em>mother</em>, and French <em>mère</em> 'mother').</p>
<p>I know many languages that lack the semivowel /w/ like Albanian, Armenian, Greek, and Russian (the semivowel /w/ is found in both English as in <em>world</em>, and French as in <em>oiseau</em> 'bird').</p>
<p>In the universe I am creating, there is a species named ogres (their scientific name is <em>Homo corpulentus</em> 'obese human', so they are still humans, just not <em>Homo sapiens</em>). In the most spoken language used by ogres, there are five basic vowels:</p>
<p>/a/ (as in French <em>arbre</em> 'tree'), the sound corresponding to the /a/ in English <em>gasp</em>;<br />
/ɔ/ (as in English <em>oar</em>, and French <em>ordinateur</em> 'computer');<br />
/u/ (as in English <em>cool</em>, and French <em>ouvrier</em> 'worker');<br />
/y/ (as in French <em>univers</em> 'universe');<br />
and the sound corresponding to French /ø/ (as in <em>euphémisme</em> 'euphemism').<br />
There are no diphthongs in the most spoken language used by ogres, but there are long vowels, and two nasal vowels: /ɑ̃/ as in French <em>antagoniste</em> 'antagonist', and /ɔ̃/ as in French <em>mouton</em> 'sheep; mutton'.</p>
<p>Also, the most spoken language used by ogres has both the semivowel /w/, and the semivowel corresponding to the /ɥ/ in French <em>fruit</em> 'fruit'.</p>
<p>So, I wonder why would a language created by mammals from the <em>Homo</em> genus lack the semivowel /j/, and even the vowel /i/.</p>

<phonology><phonetics><vowels>
Why would a language created by humans lack the /j/ semivowel, and even the /i/ vowel?
# Why would a language created by humans lack the /j/ semivowel, and even the /i/ vowel?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2022-06-16)

What I mean is the sound /j/ (as in English *yellow* and French *hyène* 'hyena') is the most common semivowel around the world. This phoneme is highly conserved in Indo-European languages (this language family include Italic languages like French and Italian, Germanic languages like English and Dutch, Slavic languages like Russian and Polish, etc.).

Also, the sound /i/ (as in English *hippie*) (the word *hippie* is also used in French) in one of the most, if not the most common vowel around the world.

Both phonemes are almost universal, as is the consonant /m/ (as in English *mother*, and French *mère* 'mother').

I know many languages that lack the semivowel /w/ like Albanian, Armenian, Greek, and Russian (the semivowel /w/ is found in both English as in *world*, and French as in *oiseau* 'bird').

In the universe I am creating, there is a species named ogres (their scientific name is *Homo corpulentus* 'obese human', so they are still humans, just not *Homo sapiens*). In the most spoken language used by ogres, there are five basic vowels:

/a/ (as in French *arbre* 'tree'), the sound corresponding to the /a/ in English *gasp*;  
/ɔ/ (as in English *oar*, and French *ordinateur* 'computer');  
/u/ (as in English *cool*, and French *ouvrier* 'worker');  
/y/ (as in French *univers* 'universe');  
and the sound corresponding to French /ø/ (as in *euphémisme* 'euphemism').  
There are no diphthongs in the most spoken language used by ogres, but there are long vowels, and two nasal vowels: /ɑ̃/ as in French *antagoniste* 'antagonist', and /ɔ̃/ as in French *mouton* 'sheep; mutton'.

Also, the most spoken language used by ogres has both the semivowel /w/, and the semivowel corresponding to the /ɥ/ in French *fruit* 'fruit'.

So, I wonder why would a language created by mammals from the *Homo* genus lack the semivowel /j/, and even the vowel /i/.

**Tags:** phonology, phonetics, vowels

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## 2 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2022-06-16. Score: 5 | Accepted answer

One simple way to make this happen would be to make ogres unable to raise their tongues to the roof of their mouths.  
[i] and [j] both require that, so they are now impossible for ogres.  
Most of the other sounds you mentioned ([a], [o], [u], [ø], [ɑ̃], [ɔ̃] and [w], if I counted correctly) do not use a raised tongue and are still possible.  
The only problem would be [y], [ɥ]. (That second one is the IPA symbol for the labio-palatal approximant, the French ui.) I propose that you could open [ø] to the open front vowel [œ] and lower [y] to the now-unused mid front vowel [ø]. On the other hand, I admit, I don't know how to best take care of [ɥ] here.

Another way would be to just say that the ogres can't raise their tongues without also rounding their lips, that *might* be biologically feasible, and it would allow [y] and [ɥ], while ruling out [i] and [j]. (Rounded [j͗] would still be possible.)

On the very other hand, if you're just wondering whether it could naturally happen: Probably. According to [Phoible](https://phoible.org/parameters), 92% of human languages have [i] and 90% have [j], so it stands to reason that at least about 1%, i.e. one or two dozen (!) languages, have neither. Lacking both of them is therefore still naturalistic.

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: Inability to raise the tongue sounds like it could work - though I guess you might as well call it not having a tongue altogether. That would also limit the available consonants, which could be interesting. A humanoid losing its tongue through evolution sounds rather implausible however.  
> **username_1**: @Domino I suppose I could've gone with "ogres don't have tongues", but it seemed OP wanted them to have phonetic capabilities as close to human ones as possible.  
> **username_3**: The roundedness might be the solution. Except for [a], all vowels in the described language are rounded. Maybe their lips could just be naturally rounded, so that unrounded vowels would be harder to pronounce and roundedness the default, resulting in [y] and [ɥ] to be more likely than [i] and [j].  
> **username_1**: @LukasG Ah, lovely; yes, that'd be a good solution too!  

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### Answer by username_4 on 2022-06-17. Score: 4

Lacking `/j/` and `[j]` is entirely plausible, no explanation needed. Attic Greek, for example, lost `[j]` and did just fine without it for hundreds of years.

Lacking `[i]` is harder to explain. There's a strong tendency for vowels to expand to fill the available space, metaphorically speaking. Human languages are under a lot of evolutionary pressure to convey as much information as possible without exceeding the limits of our auditory systems, so if there's a way to convey more information without causing problems for processing, languages will use it.

What this means is, since `[i]` is very easy for humans to hear, human languages tend to make use of it in one way or another. Even if a language doesn't have `/i/`, `[i]` will tend to appear as an allophone of something else. This is why it appears in so many different languages. For example, Ubykh is generally analyzed as having only two vowel phonemes, a high one and a low one, but that high one will still surface as `[i]` to convey more information about the surrounding consonants.

If you don't want any `[i]` sound in your language, while still being naturalistic, you'll probably want to invoke some physical reason. The speakers of your language, from the sound of it, are biologically different from modern humans. You could simply make `[i]` difficult for them to produce or distinguish, for various reasons—Richard suggests production difficulties but you could also invoke some perception difficulties. The human ear is tuned to be more sensitive to some frequencies than others, and perhaps the large gap between the formants in `[i]` is not as distinctive to them as it is to us.


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