<h3>(y)i, (w)u</h3>
<p>&quot;High vowel&quot; / &quot;glide + analogous-high-vowel&quot; are non-contrasting in Standard Chinese, and can be pronounced either way:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Chinese also lacks the contrast between V and GV, or VC and GVC, where
V is a high vowel and G is the corresponding glide, such as the pairs in (30).</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/dXMsN.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/dXMsN.png" alt="..." /></a></p>
</blockquote>
<ul>
<li><em>The Phonology of Standard Chinese</em>, 3.7 Allophonic variations</li>
</ul>
<h3>Optional glide onsets generally</h3>
<p>Duanmu refers to this as <em>G-spreading</em>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>G-Spreading requires a high nuclear vowel to spread to the onset. As a result, there is a lack of contrast between many pairs of forms, such as [sin] vs. [s<sup>j</sup>in] or [ɕin]. The process is graphically shown in (28), where O is the onset, N the nucleus, and C the coda. As will be discussed in Chapter 4, in
a CGVX syllable both C and G are in the onset.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/FuPl4.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/FuPl4.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>Because of G-Spreading, there is no surface [sin] but only [s<sup>j</sup>in], which is used by some speakers, and [ɕin], which has further undergone palatalization and is used by most speakers (see Chapter 2).</p>
<p>G-Spreading may also be responsible for the lack of contrast between [win] and [w<sup>j</sup>in] or [ɥin], or between [ juŋ] and [ jwuŋ] or [ɥuŋ], if it can
apply, at least sometimes, when the onset already has G. Assuming that [ɥ]
is a combination of [ j] and [w], [ juŋ] can be analysed as in (29).</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/tfyqz.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/tfyqz.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-04-13T07:53:04.260Z
2021-04-15T07:53:31.950Z
2021-04-15T07:53:31.950Z
大胳膊雅各布
<p>As far as I can hear, Chinese pronounce &quot;yi&quot;, &quot;yu&quot; and &quot;wu&quot; most times as [i], [ü] and [u], except sometimes in combination with a preceding syllable (like in &quot;suoyi&quot;). This is the reason, I think, why Mandarin speakers have problems in distinguishing between the pronunciation of e.g. English &quot;east&quot; and &quot;yeast&quot;. Also because of this, foreign students of Mandarin are never, or hardly ever, warned in Chinese textbooks not to pronounce the y- resp. w- preceding -i or -u, which in my eyes is a real omission. I am afraid Chinese just don't hear the difference and therefore won't understand the question of issue, neither will they adjust their textbooks for foreigners. For pronouncing the words &quot;east&quot; and &quot;yeast&quot; correctly they would have to do hard exercise.
This topic is basically a problem of Chinese textbook authors rather than foreign learmers.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-23T18:40:57.497Z
2021-02-24T07:22:27.530Z
2021-02-24T07:22:27.530Z
Derk Boonstra
<p>(Disclaimer: Not a native speaker )</p>
<p>This depends on the person's speaking habits. Chinese people have told me you can use either one, most people can't or don't care enough to tell the difference.</p>
<p>Sometimes, the same speaker will alternate their pronunciation with the same word within the same conversation. What I noticed was that the vowel portion (so the part after w or j as you said) is clear. If it's two syllables, then there is &quot;glide&quot; in between, rather than breaking up the word.</p>
<p>I don't think of this too linguistically... I just think of it like Spanish or English. It's all about connecting the words and making it easier on your throat and tongue, rather than stopping every time to say each word.
A Napple -- this is how we read &quot;an apple&quot;. In Chinese &quot;Yinyue&quot; is easier to say as &quot;injwe&quot; rather than &quot;in-i-ue&quot; or something like that.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T06:02:28.257Z
2021-02-19T06:02:28.257Z
Soroush
<p>The letters w and y are just an orthographic convention.</p>
<p>Syllables starting with u are written as w in place of u (e.g., *uan is written as wan). Standalone u is written as wu.</p>
<p>Syllables starting with i are written as y in place of i (e.g., *ian is written as yan). Standalone i is written as yi.</p>
<p>Syllables starting with ü are written as yu in place of ü (e.g., *üe is written as yue). Standalone ü is written as yu.</p>
<p>Further explanation:</p>
<p>The letter &quot;i&quot; in pinyin should be written as &quot;y&quot; if it is the start of a syllable. This is to avoid ambiguity in syllable boundary when writing words. For example, for &quot;fani&quot; it is not clear whether it's &quot;fa-ni&quot; or &quot;fan-i&quot; (both are possible in Mandarin), but for &quot;fanyi&quot; the only possible combination is &quot;fan-yi&quot;.</p>
<p>This is only an orthographic convention. Whether it is written as &quot;y&quot; or &quot;i&quot; does not affect the pronunciation. An English speaker might think &quot;yi&quot; is /ji/ and &quot;i&quot; is /i/, but a native Mandarin speaker does not distinguish between /ji/ and /i/.</p>
<p>The same applies to w/u.</p>
<p>There are other conventions. Read them here: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin#Orthographic_rules" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin#Orthographic_rules</a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-17T14:26:09.533Z
This is a little confusing. It seems like 'wan' is pronounced /wan/  but 'wu' is pronounced /u/. And similarly 'yan' is /jan/ but 'yi' is /i/ Is that correct? (the '/' is the way you write [IPA which spells out exactly how something is pronounced](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet).
Mitch
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-17T22:57:29.630Z
About “'wu' is pronounced /u/”, there are also 4 tones in Chinese, where the second tone sounds like /u/ but the first tone sounds like /wu:/
Shaw
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-18T01:42:43.763Z
@Mitch Well no, I didn't write IPA. What I wrote was all pinyin. The letter "i" in pinyin should be written as "y" if it is the start of a syllable. This is to avoid ambiguity in syllable boundary when writing words. For example, for "fani" it is not clear whether it's "fa-ni" or "fan-i" (both are possible in Mandarin), but for "fanyi" the only possible combination is "fan-yi". It is only an orthographic convention. Whether it is written as "y" or "i" does not affect the pronunciation. The same applies to w/u.
Betty
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-18T02:55:49.517Z
@Betty could you address the pronunciation part then, rather than the pinyin? The orthographic convention is interesting and useful for an answer, but my primary question is the pronunciation, not the writing.
Mitch
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-18T02:56:23.793Z
@Shaw that sounds like the start of a (separate) answer!
Mitch
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T05:09:02.827Z
@Mitch wan is /wan/ because it's really uan (like huan with no h). an with no initial is written 'an'. You really need to look at a table because the matrix of sounds is very regular, but the way pinyin is written has many exceptions.
Ben Jackson
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T05:56:01.347Z
@Mitch A native speaker does not distinguish between /ji/ and /i/.
Betty
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T14:35:50.437Z
@BenJackson "pinyin is written with many exceptions" - that's why I'm asking this question, to find out exactly what those exceptions are, when 'y' or 'w' really is pronounced explicitly and when not.
Mitch
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T14:37:49.573Z
@Betty A native speaker may not distinguish them but if a non-native speaker says it the other way than usual, the native speaker will think it sounds strange even if they are not aware of what the problem is.
Mitch
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T18:17:16.283Z
@Mitch They're never pronounced. Sometimes they are similar to the sounds (or the initial mouth shapes) involved in pronouncing isolated finals. The "w" sound in "wen" is there because the final "uen" starts with "u". The "y" sound in "yan" is the pronunciation of the final "ian" (like "bian" without the "b").
Ben Jackson
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-20T20:24:23.413Z
@BenJackson Is the 'y' in 'yan' pronounced? or is 'yan' pronounced just like 'an'? Same questions for 'yin'.
Mitch
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-20T22:05:45.857Z
@Mitch You should really, really just look at a pinyin chart. "yan" *does not end in an* in the pinyin sense. It ends in "ian". There is an ending "an" and its no-initial form is "an". "yan" is "bian" without a "b", "an" is "ban" without a b. If you asked a native speaker about "yin" and tried it "both ways" (which is really just amount of tongue tension for the "eee" sound) they would say it sounded the same.
Ben Jackson
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-20T23:08:19.247Z
@BenJackson I'm looking at https://sensiblechinese.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/grammar_sheets1.jpg in the section headed 'i,ia,iao,ie,iu,ian,iang,in,ing,iong' it feel like and I hear that there are really two distinct starting sounds: i,in,ing start without a glide and the rest do. But I am not sure because of the spelling below those headers yi,yin,ying which make me thing that they also start with glides. I'm seeking clarification because I feel like the spelling is misleading. Or maybe native speakers really do have an equally strong glide at the start of yi,yin,ying.
Mitch
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-17T04:42:51.390Z
2021-02-19T07:04:51.287Z
2021-02-19T07:04:51.287Z
Betty
<p>IMHO, there are two reasons.</p>
<p>In general, Chinese people tend to pronounce every Chinese character in one syllable (每个字听起来像一个音节) with similar length, which will cause the &quot;word initial glide&quot;, like 'y' and 'w'.<br />
That makes you find different pronunciations between learning Pinyin and actual chinese characters.</p>
<p>Examples:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>&quot;王&quot;<br />
If you separate the pinyin, it goes like <strong>/u:/ + /a:ŋ/</strong>.<br />
But actually, we pronounce &quot;王&quot; as <strong>/wɔŋ/</strong> to make it as one syllable.<br />
(And you never heard the sound /u:a:ŋ/ in China)</p>
</li>
<li><p>&quot;一个&quot;<br />
Pinyin goes as <strong>/yi:/ + /gə/</strong>.<br />
But the word sounds more like <strong>/igə/</strong>, as &quot;个&quot; is kind of a short sound.</p>
</li>
</ol>
<p>The other reason is that Pinyin has got four tones, which are represented on vowels rather than the initial sound, but there is NO definition of long vowel.<br />
Among those four tones, first tone sounds more like a long vowel while others not.<br />
In this case, you'll find some characters with same vowels in pinyin, but sounds (quite) different.</p>
<p>By the way, those are also (probably) the reasons that when Chinese start to learn English, they usually pronouce long vowels improperly, as they still speak in the way of Pinyin.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-18T03:51:32.400Z
2021-02-18T19:31:48.100Z
2021-02-18T19:31:48.100Z
Shaw
<p>As a russian native speaker I use <a href="https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BF%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Palladiya system</a></p>
<p>russian has more sounds, and it's easier to read than International Phonetic Alphabet transcription</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-24T22:05:28.397Z
Nice. If you know Cyrillic and Russian pronunciation, it seems to corroborate other answers here: 'wu' and 'yi' don't seem to have starting glides like 'wang' or 'yang' do. Can you add that explicitly to your answer?
Mitch
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-24T19:04:58.783Z
2021-02-25T16:46:41.157Z
2021-02-25T16:46:41.157Z
srghma
<p>This is probably a better question for linguistics stack exchange; however, I will say that you are not hearing things incorrectly. My background is in linguistics, though not specifically in phonetics and phonology, so don't consider this an expert opinion. However, given some searching, I've found a helpful <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Wikipedia</a> (Glides section) note  on this:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The glides may occur in initial position in a syllable. This occurs with [ɥ] in the syllables written yu, yuan, yue, and yun in pinyin; with [j] in other syllables written with initial y in pinyin (ya, yi, etc.); and with [w] in syllables written with initial w in pinyin (wa, wu, etc.). When a glide is followed by the vowel of which that glide is considered an allophone, the glide may be regarded as epenthetic (automatically inserted), and not as a separate realization of the phoneme. Hence the syllable yi, pronounced [ji], may be analyzed as consisting of the single phoneme /i/, and similarly yin may be analyzed as /in/, yu as /y/, and wu as /u/.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology" rel="nofollow noreferrer">1</a>:274ff <strong>It is also possible to hear both from the same speaker, even in the same conversation</strong>.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology" rel="nofollow noreferrer">1</a>:274ff For example, one may hear the number &quot;one&quot; 一; yī as either [jí] or [í].</p>
</blockquote>
<p>What this seems to be saying is that the glides [j] and [w] can be inserted in front of certain vowels of which the glide is considered an allophone and that the insertion of such glides depends on the speaker. From my own experience, this very much seems to be the case. I often speak with Taiwanese/Southern Chinese speakers and will almost always hear [u] to represent the pinyin &quot;wu&quot; and [i] to represent the pinyin &quot;yi&quot;. For what it's worth, this is also considered &quot;standard&quot; in terms of the sources (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology" rel="nofollow noreferrer">1</a>,<a href="http://www.zein.se/patrick/chinen8p.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">2</a>) I've found.</p>
<p>I am avoiding / / notation since usually this is used to denote phonemes (something used to distinguish minimal pairs), whereas [ ] is used to denote surface realizations of the phoneme (allophones). <strong>By the way, if someone more familiar with phonetics/phonology finds something wrong here, please do correct me.</strong></p>
<p>To sum up, you are not wrong in hearing it this way. Just be mindful that you may hear some variations. If you want to be safe and certain that you will be understood, then pronounce them as [u] and [i]. Though, given some more listening practice, you may start to mimic some other accents. Try out <a href="https://youglish.com/pronounce/%E4%BA%94/chinese/cn?" rel="nofollow noreferrer">this</a> website to test out words like &quot;五&quot; and ”一“. You can filter by region to try to hear differences. Personally, I hear the glides inserted more often when using the CN filter, and find them less so when using the TW filter.</p>
<p>PS: You might also find it interesting to look at &quot;<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Bopomofo</a>&quot; or &quot;Zhuyin&quot;, the phonetic symbols used in Taiwan as opposed to Pinyin. In the case of &quot;一&quot; and &quot;五”, both use symbols that correspond simply to [i] and [u] respectively.</p>
<p>EDIT: To answer your question &quot;Are there (other) contexts where the word initial glide does not occur?&quot;. To my knowledge, this is the only context where [w] and [j] are omitted in pronunciation but still have &quot;w&quot; and &quot;y&quot; written explicitly in Pinyin. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken here.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T04:57:18.717Z
2021-02-19T15:38:11.610Z
2021-02-19T15:38:11.610Z
kg5425
<p>As a non-native speaker, I read pinyin and want to pronounce 'yi' as /ji:/
and 'wu' as /wu:/.</p>
<p>But sometimes I think I <em>hear</em>  just /i:/ and /u:/.</p>
<p>Is that really the case or am I just (not) hearing things? I don't ever hear 'yang' or 'wang' as /jaŋ/ and /waŋ/. Are there (other) contexts where the word initial glide does not occur?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T09:15:51.637Z
I'll try to write up an answer later, but this is unrelated to spelling conventions and Pinyin. There are indeed two ways of pronouncing these sounds, with and without a glide at the start. @dj1121's answer comes closest so far. From a learner perspective, both are correct, and like the quote from Wikipedia says, even the same person can switch between the two versions.
Olle Linge
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T14:50:56.810Z
@OlleLinge Spelling conventions are an attempt at recording pronunciation that doesn't capture everything. I'm trying to get more information about what pinyin doesn't capture about 'y' and 'w'. But sometimes, because a foreigner's ears just don't 'get it', and reading is all you have to go on. Looking forward to your answer.
Mitch
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-02-19T17:13:06.010Z
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to criticise your question, I just wanted to say that answers that invoke spelling rules are not going to help you here. :)
Olle Linge
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-04-13T08:09:41.870Z
Does this answer your question? [Why one -> many mapping between IPA and Pinyin?](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/2431/why-one-many-mapping-between-ipa-and-pinyin)
大胳膊雅各布
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-04-13T08:44:53.563Z
Actually, **y**, **i** and **yi** read the same in pinyin system, as well as **w**, **u** and **wu**. If used as initials, written as **y** and **w**. If used as part of finals, witten as **i** and **u**. If used as a single syllable, written as **yi** and **wu**.
xenophōn
<pronunciation><pinyin>
Pronunciation of word-initial glides (pinyin 'y' and 'w')
# Pronunciation of word-initial glides (pinyin 'y' and 'w')

(Asked by: username_0 on 2021-02-17)

As a non-native speaker, I read pinyin and want to pronounce 'yi' as /ji:/
and 'wu' as /wu:/.

But sometimes I think I *hear* just /i:/ and /u:/.

Is that really the case or am I just (not) hearing things? I don't ever hear 'yang' or 'wang' as /jaŋ/ and /waŋ/. Are there (other) contexts where the word initial glide does not occur?

**Tags:** pronunciation, pinyin
> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I'll try to write up an answer later, but this is unrelated to spelling conventions and Pinyin. There are indeed two ways of pronouncing these sounds, with and without a glide at the start. @dj1121's answer comes closest so far. From a learner perspective, both are correct, and like the quote from Wikipedia says, even the same person can switch between the two versions.  
> **username_0**: @OlleLinge Spelling conventions are an attempt at recording pronunciation that doesn't capture everything. I'm trying to get more information about what pinyin doesn't capture about 'y' and 'w'. But sometimes, because a foreigner's ears just don't 'get it', and reading is all you have to go on. Looking forward to your answer.  
> **username_1**: Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to criticise your question, I just wanted to say that answers that invoke spelling rules are not going to help you here. :)  
> **username_2**: Does this answer your question? [Why one -> many mapping between IPA and Pinyin?](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/2431/why-one-many-mapping-between-ipa-and-pinyin)  
> **username_3**: Actually, **y**, **i** and **yi** read the same in pinyin system, as well as **w**, **u** and **wu**. If used as initials, written as **y** and **w**. If used as part of finals, witten as **i** and **u**. If used as a single syllable, written as **yi** and **wu**.  

---

## 7 answers

### Answer by username_10 on 2021-02-19. Score: 5 | Accepted answer

This is probably a better question for linguistics stack exchange; however, I will say that you are not hearing things incorrectly. My background is in linguistics, though not specifically in phonetics and phonology, so don't consider this an expert opinion. However, given some searching, I've found a helpful [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology) (Glides section) note on this:

> The glides may occur in initial position in a syllable. This occurs with [ɥ] in the syllables written yu, yuan, yue, and yun in pinyin; with [j] in other syllables written with initial y in pinyin (ya, yi, etc.); and with [w] in syllables written with initial w in pinyin (wa, wu, etc.). When a glide is followed by the vowel of which that glide is considered an allophone, the glide may be regarded as epenthetic (automatically inserted), and not as a separate realization of the phoneme. Hence the syllable yi, pronounced [ji], may be analyzed as consisting of the single phoneme /i/, and similarly yin may be analyzed as /in/, yu as /y/, and wu as /u/.[1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology):274ff **It is also possible to hear both from the same speaker, even in the same conversation**.[1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology):274ff For example, one may hear the number "one" 一; yī as either [jí] or [í].

What this seems to be saying is that the glides [j] and [w] can be inserted in front of certain vowels of which the glide is considered an allophone and that the insertion of such glides depends on the speaker. From my own experience, this very much seems to be the case. I often speak with Taiwanese/Southern Chinese speakers and will almost always hear [u] to represent the pinyin "wu" and [i] to represent the pinyin "yi". For what it's worth, this is also considered "standard" in terms of the sources ([1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology),[2](http://www.zein.se/patrick/chinen8p.html)) I've found.

I am avoiding / / notation since usually this is used to denote phonemes (something used to distinguish minimal pairs), whereas [ ] is used to denote surface realizations of the phoneme (allophones). **By the way, if someone more familiar with phonetics/phonology finds something wrong here, please do correct me.**

To sum up, you are not wrong in hearing it this way. Just be mindful that you may hear some variations. If you want to be safe and certain that you will be understood, then pronounce them as [u] and [i]. Though, given some more listening practice, you may start to mimic some other accents. Try out [this](https://youglish.com/pronounce/%E4%BA%94/chinese/cn?) website to test out words like "五" and ”一“. You can filter by region to try to hear differences. Personally, I hear the glides inserted more often when using the CN filter, and find them less so when using the TW filter.

PS: You might also find it interesting to look at "[Bopomofo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo)" or "Zhuyin", the phonetic symbols used in Taiwan as opposed to Pinyin. In the case of "一" and "五”, both use symbols that correspond simply to [i] and [u] respectively.

EDIT: To answer your question "Are there (other) contexts where the word initial glide does not occur?". To my knowledge, this is the only context where [w] and [j] are omitted in pronunciation but still have "w" and "y" written explicitly in Pinyin. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken here.


---

### Answer by username_2 on 2021-04-13. Score: 3

### (y)i, (w)u

"High vowel" / "glide + analogous-high-vowel" are non-contrasting in Standard Chinese, and can be pronounced either way:

> Chinese also lacks the contrast between V and GV, or VC and GVC, where
> V is a high vowel and G is the corresponding glide, such as the pairs in (30).
>
> [![...](https://i.sstatic.net/dXMsN.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/dXMsN.png)

* *The Phonology of Standard Chinese*, 3.7 Allophonic variations

### Optional glide onsets generally

Duanmu refers to this as *G-spreading*:

> G-Spreading requires a high nuclear vowel to spread to the onset. As a result, there is a lack of contrast between many pairs of forms, such as [sin] vs. [sjin] or [ɕin]. The process is graphically shown in (28), where O is the onset, N the nucleus, and C the coda. As will be discussed in Chapter 4, in
> a CGVX syllable both C and G are in the onset.
>
> [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/FuPl4.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/FuPl4.png)
>
> Because of G-Spreading, there is no surface [sin] but only [sjin], which is used by some speakers, and [ɕin], which has further undergone palatalization and is used by most speakers (see Chapter 2).
>
> G-Spreading may also be responsible for the lack of contrast between [win] and [wjin] or [ɥin], or between [ juŋ] and [ jwuŋ] or [ɥuŋ], if it can
> apply, at least sometimes, when the onset already has G. Assuming that [ɥ]
> is a combination of [ j] and [w], [ juŋ] can be analysed as in (29).
>
> [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/tfyqz.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/tfyqz.png)


---

### Answer by username_4 on 2021-02-23. Score: 2

As far as I can hear, Chinese pronounce "yi", "yu" and "wu" most times as [i], [ü] and [u], except sometimes in combination with a preceding syllable (like in "suoyi"). This is the reason, I think, why Mandarin speakers have problems in distinguishing between the pronunciation of e.g. English "east" and "yeast". Also because of this, foreign students of Mandarin are never, or hardly ever, warned in Chinese textbooks not to pronounce the y- resp. w- preceding -i or -u, which in my eyes is a real omission. I am afraid Chinese just don't hear the difference and therefore won't understand the question of issue, neither will they adjust their textbooks for foreigners. For pronouncing the words "east" and "yeast" correctly they would have to do hard exercise.
This topic is basically a problem of Chinese textbook authors rather than foreign learmers.


---

### Answer by username_5 on 2021-02-19. Score: 1

(Disclaimer: Not a native speaker )

This depends on the person's speaking habits. Chinese people have told me you can use either one, most people can't or don't care enough to tell the difference.

Sometimes, the same speaker will alternate their pronunciation with the same word within the same conversation. What I noticed was that the vowel portion (so the part after w or j as you said) is clear. If it's two syllables, then there is "glide" in between, rather than breaking up the word.

I don't think of this too linguistically... I just think of it like Spanish or English. It's all about connecting the words and making it easier on your throat and tongue, rather than stopping every time to say each word.
A Napple -- this is how we read "an apple". In Chinese "Yinyue" is easier to say as "injwe" rather than "in-i-ue" or something like that.


---

### Answer by username_6 on 2021-02-17. Score: 1

The letters w and y are just an orthographic convention.

Syllables starting with u are written as w in place of u (e.g., \*uan is written as wan). Standalone u is written as wu.

Syllables starting with i are written as y in place of i (e.g., \*ian is written as yan). Standalone i is written as yi.

Syllables starting with ü are written as yu in place of ü (e.g., \*üe is written as yue). Standalone ü is written as yu.

Further explanation:

The letter "i" in pinyin should be written as "y" if it is the start of a syllable. This is to avoid ambiguity in syllable boundary when writing words. For example, for "fani" it is not clear whether it's "fa-ni" or "fan-i" (both are possible in Mandarin), but for "fanyi" the only possible combination is "fan-yi".

This is only an orthographic convention. Whether it is written as "y" or "i" does not affect the pronunciation. An English speaker might think "yi" is /ji/ and "i" is /i/, but a native Mandarin speaker does not distinguish between /ji/ and /i/.

The same applies to w/u.

There are other conventions. Read them here: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin#Orthographic_rules>

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: This is a little confusing. It seems like 'wan' is pronounced /wan/  but 'wu' is pronounced /u/. And similarly 'yan' is /jan/ but 'yi' is /i/ Is that correct? (the '/' is the way you write [IPA which spells out exactly how something is pronounced](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet).  
> **username_7**: About “'wu' is pronounced /u/”, there are also 4 tones in Chinese, where the second tone sounds like /u/ but the first tone sounds like /wu:/  
> **username_6**: @Mitch Well no, I didn't write IPA. What I wrote was all pinyin. The letter "i" in pinyin should be written as "y" if it is the start of a syllable. This is to avoid ambiguity in syllable boundary when writing words. For example, for "fani" it is not clear whether it's "fa-ni" or "fan-i" (both are possible in Mandarin), but for "fanyi" the only possible combination is "fan-yi". It is only an orthographic convention. Whether it is written as "y" or "i" does not affect the pronunciation. The same applies to w/u.  
> **username_0**: @Betty could you address the pronunciation part then, rather than the pinyin? The orthographic convention is interesting and useful for an answer, but my primary question is the pronunciation, not the writing.  
> **username_0**: @Shaw that sounds like the start of a (separate) answer!  
> **username_8**: @Mitch wan is /wan/ because it's really uan (like huan with no h). an with no initial is written 'an'. You really need to look at a table because the matrix of sounds is very regular, but the way pinyin is written has many exceptions.  
> **username_6**: @Mitch A native speaker does not distinguish between /ji/ and /i/.  
> **username_0**: @BenJackson "pinyin is written with many exceptions" - that's why I'm asking this question, to find out exactly what those exceptions are, when 'y' or 'w' really is pronounced explicitly and when not.  
> **username_0**: @Betty A native speaker may not distinguish them but if a non-native speaker says it the other way than usual, the native speaker will think it sounds strange even if they are not aware of what the problem is.  
> **username_8**: @Mitch They're never pronounced. Sometimes they are similar to the sounds (or the initial mouth shapes) involved in pronouncing isolated finals. The "w" sound in "wen" is there because the final "uen" starts with "u". The "y" sound in "yan" is the pronunciation of the final "ian" (like "bian" without the "b").  
> **username_0**: @BenJackson Is the 'y' in 'yan' pronounced? or is 'yan' pronounced just like 'an'? Same questions for 'yin'.  
> **username_8**: @Mitch You should really, really just look at a pinyin chart. "yan" *does not end in an* in the pinyin sense. It ends in "ian". There is an ending "an" and its no-initial form is "an". "yan" is "bian" without a "b", "an" is "ban" without a b. If you asked a native speaker about "yin" and tried it "both ways" (which is really just amount of tongue tension for the "eee" sound) they would say it sounded the same.  
> **username_0**: @BenJackson I'm looking at https://sensiblechinese.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/grammar_sheets1.jpg in the section headed 'i,ia,iao,ie,iu,ian,iang,in,ing,iong' it feel like and I hear that there are really two distinct starting sounds: i,in,ing start without a glide and the rest do. But I am not sure because of the spelling below those headers yi,yin,ying which make me thing that they also start with glides. I'm seeking clarification because I feel like the spelling is misleading. Or maybe native speakers really do have an equally strong glide at the start of yi,yin,ying.  

---

### Answer by username_7 on 2021-02-18. Score: 1

IMHO, there are two reasons.

In general, Chinese people tend to pronounce every Chinese character in one syllable (每个字听起来像一个音节) with similar length, which will cause the "word initial glide", like 'y' and 'w'.  
That makes you find different pronunciations between learning Pinyin and actual chinese characters.

Examples:

1. "王"  
   If you separate the pinyin, it goes like **/u:/ + /a:ŋ/**.  
   But actually, we pronounce "王" as **/wɔŋ/** to make it as one syllable.  
   (And you never heard the sound /u:a:ŋ/ in China)
2. "一个"  
   Pinyin goes as **/yi:/ + /gə/**.  
   But the word sounds more like **/igə/**, as "个" is kind of a short sound.

The other reason is that Pinyin has got four tones, which are represented on vowels rather than the initial sound, but there is NO definition of long vowel.  
Among those four tones, first tone sounds more like a long vowel while others not.  
In this case, you'll find some characters with same vowels in pinyin, but sounds (quite) different.

By the way, those are also (probably) the reasons that when Chinese start to learn English, they usually pronouce long vowels improperly, as they still speak in the way of Pinyin.


---

### Answer by username_9 on 2021-02-24. Score: 1

As a russian native speaker I use [Palladiya system](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BF%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F)

russian has more sounds, and it's easier to read than International Phonetic Alphabet transcription

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Nice. If you know Cyrillic and Russian pronunciation, it seems to corroborate other answers here: 'wu' and 'yi' don't seem to have starting glides like 'wang' or 'yang' do. Can you add that explicitly to your answer?  

---

