<blockquote>
<p>何謂四靈？麟鳳龜龍，謂之四靈。故龍以為畜，故魚鮪不淰；鳳以為畜，故鳥不獝；麟以為畜，故獸不狘；<strong>龜以為畜，故人情不失</strong>。</p>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="https://liji.5000yan.com/liyun/118.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><strong>[释译]</strong></a></p>
<p>“何为四灵？麟、凤、龟、龙，是四类动物之王称为四灵。因此，龙如果成为家畜，这样的话鳞族部下就会随之而来；凤如果成为家畜，羽族部下也会随之而来；<strong>龟如果成为家畜，这样可用以占卜，就可以预先察知人情</strong>。**所以先王秉持蓍草和龟甲，安排祭祀，**瘗缯（掩埋丝帛，祭地礼）降神，宣读祝词和嘏词，制定各种制度。于是百姓都彬彬有礼，百官都各自治理自己的事情，所有的事情都是有章法的，凡所行礼，皆有次序。”</p>
<p>[<strong>My understanding</strong>]</p>
<p>龟甲自古用于占卜, 占卜則用于探討<strong>人情</strong>事故 - Here, 人情 does not mean &quot;human relationship&quot; but &quot;a person's situation/circumstance in the past, at present, and in the future. &quot;龜以為畜，故人情不失&quot; = &quot;養龜為家畜, (其甲可用于占卜, 因此原故,) 可測知一人/家/國之未來&quot;. Here, &quot;不失(not lost)&quot; literally means &quot;可測知(can be predicted, made known and record.)&quot;</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-31T21:13:49.190Z
Thank you - so this is a modern interpretation (the same one that I had also in mind). But are there also classical commentaries that offer the same reading?
mudskipper
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-31T21:22:40.880Z
It might have, but not to my knowledge. There are quite a few users here who are very knowledgeable about old Chinese literature, maybe someone can bring it up.
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-31T18:22:49.110Z
2024-08-31T18:22:49.110Z
r13
<p>“鲔”，大鲤，尤善逸者，“淰”，惊散也。“獝”，狂飞。“狘”，惊走。三者在是，则其属聚而绕之，“人情不失”，谓灼之以卜而知吉凶之情状。此释四者所以为灵，而致之足以为瑞也。 作者：-雪路 <a href="https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv26276843/?jump_opus=1" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv26276843/?jump_opus=1</a> 出处：bilibili</p>
<p>Here 人情 means knowing the future by divination</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-02T14:47:55.673Z
Thank you for the link to the commentary by 王夫之.  But I do not believe that "人情" here is "knowing the future through divination". Since we have in the Liji 18: 何谓人情？喜、怒、哀、惧、爱、恶、欲，七者弗学而能
So, should "人情" not first of all mean: "human feelings, emotions" or "human dispositions"?
mudskipper
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-02T16:31:16.560Z
In Chinese a word may have several different meaning. Here's a word called "天道人情" where 人情 means human nature. and I think human nature desribes more accurate than my first explanation. Any way, for me, here 人情means the common rule/law in human world.
Lake_Lagunita
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-02T01:39:57.437Z
2024-09-02T01:39:57.437Z
Lake_Lagunita
<blockquote>
<p>Are there traditional Chinese commentaries that mention this passage</p>
</blockquote>
<p>there’re many </p>
<p>in the book “日講禮記解義” by 張廷玉, 清 dynasty; <a href="https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&amp;chapter=175603&amp;searchu=%E9%BE%9C%E4%BB%A5%E7%82%BA%E7%95%9C" rel="nofollow noreferrer">volume 25</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>何謂四靈・若麟性之仁厚・鳯之知治亂・龜之兆吉凶・龍之能變化・則所謂四靈是已</p>
</blockquote>
<p>tortoise is assigned a feature of “foretelling good or bad” (兆吉凶)</p>
<blockquote>
<p>案三靈馴擾則其類皆從</p>
</blockquote>
<p>the 3 &quot;spiritual creatures&quot; (龍、鳳、麟) were assigned as leader of fish, bird, beast (魚、鳥、獸)</p>
<p>that, if a sage’s (聖人) governance is good enough, these spiritual creatures would gather around [the sage]; then, their subordinates would also gather around [people], which implied stable meat supplies (domestication)</p>
<blockquote>
<p>龜乃不言介蟲類應者・以前知之物・尤聖人所寳・故特明之</p>
</blockquote>
<p>the tortoise was not associated with animal with shell (~ crustaceans) (龜乃不言介蟲類應者), cause it’s a spiritual creature that can foretell (以前知之物), particularly treasured by all sages (尤聖人所寳); therefore, mentioned it especially (故特明之)</p>
<p>another book “欽定禮記義疏”, 清 dynasty; <a href="https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&amp;res=725718&amp;searchu=%E9%BE%9C%E7%9F%A5%E4%BA%BA%E6%83%85%E9%BE%9C%E6%97%A2%E6%9D%A5%E6%87%89" rel="nofollow noreferrer">volume 32</a>:</p>
<p>quoted that yet another book “禮記正義” annotated:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>龜・北方之靈・信則至矣</p>
</blockquote>
<p>tortoise, spiritual creature of the north, [with] sincerity, [it] would come</p>
<blockquote>
<p>魚鮪從龍・鳥從鳳・獸從麟・其長既来・故其屬見人不驚也</p>
</blockquote>
<p>fishes follow dragon, birds follow phoenix, beast follow kirin, since their leaders are coming [due to the sage’s good governance]; so, the subordinates of these spiritual creatures would not be scared by people</p>
<blockquote>
<p>龜知人情・龜既来應・故人各守其行・其情不失也</p>
</blockquote>
<p>the tortoise knows humanity, since the tortoise is coming; therefore people “binding over” according [to their social strata], the humanity is not loss</p>
<blockquote>
<p>上三靈・言其長来而族至・龜獨言其感信而至・與上相互也</p>
</blockquote>
<p>the first three spiritual creatures, mentioned that the leaders come, the subordinates also come</p>
<p>only the tortoise, mentioned that it senses the sincerity [of the sage], it would come, [for] it interacts with the ruler / sage</p>
<p>imo, interpret “畜” as “家畜” (livestock) is . . . unthinkable</p>
<p>read it as “金文表示畜養，引申為羅致、治理人才，秦公鎛：「咸畜百辟胤士」，意謂羅致百官賢士。”</p>
<p><a href="https://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk//Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=%E7%95%9C" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk//Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=%E7%95%9C</a></p>
<p>have fun :)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-01T13:10:26.247Z
人各守其行・其情不失也 -- That's a very interesting gloss! It matches the overall interpretation of ritual based on the Liji that Michael Puett makes in https://scholar.harvard.edu/sites/scholar.harvard.edu/files/puett/files/puett_sacrifice.pdf
mudskipper
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-01T13:19:04.523Z
@mudskipper, interesting, you read it affirmatively  for me, i’ve quite negative interpretations  based on my own experiences, and knowledges of the culture, history 
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-02T14:46:13.330Z
It seems you read 人情 as "human relations" ("humanity") but should it not be "human feelings, emotions"? Since the Liji itself has: 何謂人情？喜怒哀懼愛惡欲七者，弗學而能
(https://ctext.org/liji?searchu=何谓人情)
mudskipper
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-02T15:00:10.540Z
@mudskipper, good  there’re 17 “人情” in 禮記 https://ctext.org/liji/zh?searchu=%E4%BA%BA%E6%83%85 , only the above mentioned one is “people’s emotions”, others, read as “humanity” is, . . . more appropriate, imo 
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-02T15:07:56.777Z
Ok - I will need to study this some more! :) But the point is that in the quote I gave it explicitly is _defined_ so I believe that should be the start (it's also the most natural reading, no?). On the other hand, I agree, that in other places it could have a wider or somewhat different meaning...
mudskipper
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-02T15:21:37.810Z
@mudskipper, don’t worry, for that quote, your reading is correct 
水巷孑蠻
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-09-01T03:27:50.593Z
2024-09-01T03:27:50.593Z
水巷孑蠻
<p>In the Liji (<a href="https://ctext.org/liji/li-yun" rel="nofollow noreferrer">禮運</a> 21, 23) we find the following passages</p>
<p>故聖人作則，必以天地為本，以陰陽為端，以四時為柄，以日星為紀，月以為量，鬼神以為徒，五行以為質，禮義以為器，人情以為田，四靈以為畜。</p>
<p>何謂四靈？麟鳳龜龍，謂之四靈。故龍以為畜，故魚鮪不淰；鳳以為畜，故鳥不獝；麟以為畜，故獸不狘；龜以為畜，故人情不失。</p>
<p>The context is an explanation of how the sages used (or established) rituals to order human feelings/attitudes (治人情) and how rituals are part of a process of domestication, similar to the domestication of animals for food. My question is about the second passage.</p>
<p>The four &quot;spiritual creatures&quot; -- dragon, phoenix, qilin and tortoise -- are mentioned as emblematic for all domesticated animals of water, air, and land. Each one of them is linked to a special domain (dragon - water/fish, phoenix - air/birds, qilin - land/beasts), except for the tortoise, which is linked up with human dispositions. Why was this done? Does it have a specific significance? Are there traditional Chinese commentaries that mention this passage (or perhaps similar passages) and clarify why the tortoise was associated with 人情? Or should we say that this passage came about more as rhetorical sequencing (after all, the text is rather formulaic in terminology and phrasing), so that we shouldn't put much (or any) weight on this association (it just so happened that the 4 emblematic animals needed to be matched up with water/air/land, so there was a gap that needed to be filled for the 4th)?</p>
<p>It's probably not hard to <em>invent</em> an interpretation of this (for instance taking into account the use of tortoise plastrons in the old oracles, or other ceremonial uses of tortoises/turtles), but I'm mostly interested in knowing if there are references in traditional commentaries that discuss this association explicitly (if there are any).</p>

<classical-chinese><culture>
Why is the tortoise associated with 人情?
# Why is the tortoise associated with 人情?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-08-31)

In the Liji ([禮運](https://ctext.org/liji/li-yun) 21, 23) we find the following passages

故聖人作則，必以天地為本，以陰陽為端，以四時為柄，以日星為紀，月以為量，鬼神以為徒，五行以為質，禮義以為器，人情以為田，四靈以為畜。

何謂四靈？麟鳳龜龍，謂之四靈。故龍以為畜，故魚鮪不淰；鳳以為畜，故鳥不獝；麟以為畜，故獸不狘；龜以為畜，故人情不失。

The context is an explanation of how the sages used (or established) rituals to order human feelings/attitudes (治人情) and how rituals are part of a process of domestication, similar to the domestication of animals for food. My question is about the second passage.

The four "spiritual creatures" -- dragon, phoenix, qilin and tortoise -- are mentioned as emblematic for all domesticated animals of water, air, and land. Each one of them is linked to a special domain (dragon - water/fish, phoenix - air/birds, qilin - land/beasts), except for the tortoise, which is linked up with human dispositions. Why was this done? Does it have a specific significance? Are there traditional Chinese commentaries that mention this passage (or perhaps similar passages) and clarify why the tortoise was associated with 人情? Or should we say that this passage came about more as rhetorical sequencing (after all, the text is rather formulaic in terminology and phrasing), so that we shouldn't put much (or any) weight on this association (it just so happened that the 4 emblematic animals needed to be matched up with water/air/land, so there was a gap that needed to be filled for the 4th)?

It's probably not hard to *invent* an interpretation of this (for instance taking into account the use of tortoise plastrons in the old oracles, or other ceremonial uses of tortoises/turtles), but I'm mostly interested in knowing if there are references in traditional commentaries that discuss this association explicitly (if there are any).

**Tags:** classical-chinese, culture

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2024-09-01. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

> Are there traditional Chinese commentaries that mention this passage

there’re many

in the book “日講禮記解義” by 張廷玉, 清 dynasty; [volume 25](https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=175603&searchu=%E9%BE%9C%E4%BB%A5%E7%82%BA%E7%95%9C):

> 何謂四靈・若麟性之仁厚・鳯之知治亂・龜之兆吉凶・龍之能變化・則所謂四靈是已

tortoise is assigned a feature of “foretelling good or bad” (兆吉凶)

> 案三靈馴擾則其類皆從

the 3 "spiritual creatures" (龍、鳳、麟) were assigned as leader of fish, bird, beast (魚、鳥、獸)

that, if a sage’s (聖人) governance is good enough, these spiritual creatures would gather around [the sage]; then, their subordinates would also gather around [people], which implied stable meat supplies (domestication)

> 龜乃不言介蟲類應者・以前知之物・尤聖人所寳・故特明之

the tortoise was not associated with animal with shell (~ crustaceans) (龜乃不言介蟲類應者), cause it’s a spiritual creature that can foretell (以前知之物), particularly treasured by all sages (尤聖人所寳); therefore, mentioned it especially (故特明之)

another book “欽定禮記義疏”, 清 dynasty; [volume 32](https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&res=725718&searchu=%E9%BE%9C%E7%9F%A5%E4%BA%BA%E6%83%85%E9%BE%9C%E6%97%A2%E6%9D%A5%E6%87%89):

quoted that yet another book “禮記正義” annotated:

> 龜・北方之靈・信則至矣

tortoise, spiritual creature of the north, [with] sincerity, [it] would come

> 魚鮪從龍・鳥從鳳・獸從麟・其長既来・故其屬見人不驚也

fishes follow dragon, birds follow phoenix, beast follow kirin, since their leaders are coming [due to the sage’s good governance]; so, the subordinates of these spiritual creatures would not be scared by people

> 龜知人情・龜既来應・故人各守其行・其情不失也

the tortoise knows humanity, since the tortoise is coming; therefore people “binding over” according [to their social strata], the humanity is not loss

> 上三靈・言其長来而族至・龜獨言其感信而至・與上相互也

the first three spiritual creatures, mentioned that the leaders come, the subordinates also come

only the tortoise, mentioned that it senses the sincerity [of the sage], it would come, [for] it interacts with the ruler / sage

imo, interpret “畜” as “家畜” (livestock) is . . . unthinkable

read it as “金文表示畜養，引申為羅致、治理人才，秦公鎛：「咸畜百辟胤士」，意謂羅致百官賢士。”

<https://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk//Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=%E7%95%9C>

have fun :)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: 人各守其行・其情不失也 -- That's a very interesting gloss! It matches the overall interpretation of ritual based on the Liji that Michael Puett makes in https://scholar.harvard.edu/sites/scholar.harvard.edu/files/puett/files/puett_sacrifice.pdf  
> **username_3**: @mudskipper, interesting, you read it affirmatively  for me, i’ve quite negative interpretations  based on my own experiences, and knowledges of the culture, history   
> **username_0**: It seems you read 人情 as "human relations" ("humanity") but should it not be "human feelings, emotions"? Since the Liji itself has: 何謂人情？喜怒哀懼愛惡欲七者，弗學而能 (https://ctext.org/liji?searchu=何谓人情)  
> **username_3**: @mudskipper, good  there’re 17 “人情” in 禮記 https://ctext.org/liji/zh?searchu=%E4%BA%BA%E6%83%85 , only the above mentioned one is “people’s emotions”, others, read as “humanity” is, . . . more appropriate, imo   
> **username_0**: Ok - I will need to study this some more! :) But the point is that in the quote I gave it explicitly is _defined_ so I believe that should be the start (it's also the most natural reading, no?). On the other hand, I agree, that in other places it could have a wider or somewhat different meaning...  
> **username_3**: @mudskipper, don’t worry, for that quote, your reading is correct   

---

### Answer by username_1 on 2024-08-31. Score: 1

> 何謂四靈？麟鳳龜龍，謂之四靈。故龍以為畜，故魚鮪不淰；鳳以為畜，故鳥不獝；麟以為畜，故獸不狘；**龜以為畜，故人情不失**。

[**[释译]**](https://liji.5000yan.com/liyun/118.html)

“何为四灵？麟、凤、龟、龙，是四类动物之王称为四灵。因此，龙如果成为家畜，这样的话鳞族部下就会随之而来；凤如果成为家畜，羽族部下也会随之而来；**龟如果成为家畜，这样可用以占卜，就可以预先察知人情**。\*\*所以先王秉持蓍草和龟甲，安排祭祀，\*\*瘗缯（掩埋丝帛，祭地礼）降神，宣读祝词和嘏词，制定各种制度。于是百姓都彬彬有礼，百官都各自治理自己的事情，所有的事情都是有章法的，凡所行礼，皆有次序。”

[**My understanding**]

龟甲自古用于占卜, 占卜則用于探討**人情**事故 - Here, 人情 does not mean "human relationship" but "a person's situation/circumstance in the past, at present, and in the future. "龜以為畜，故人情不失" = "養龜為家畜, (其甲可用于占卜, 因此原故,) 可測知一人/家/國之未來". Here, "不失(not lost)" literally means "可測知(can be predicted, made known and record.)"

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thank you - so this is a modern interpretation (the same one that I had also in mind). But are there also classical commentaries that offer the same reading?  
> **username_1**: It might have, but not to my knowledge. There are quite a few users here who are very knowledgeable about old Chinese literature, maybe someone can bring it up.  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2024-09-02. Score: 0

“鲔”，大鲤，尤善逸者，“淰”，惊散也。“獝”，狂飞。“狘”，惊走。三者在是，则其属聚而绕之，“人情不失”，谓灼之以卜而知吉凶之情状。此释四者所以为灵，而致之足以为瑞也。 作者：-雪路 <https://www.bilibili.com/read/cv26276843/?jump_opus=1> 出处：bilibili

Here 人情 means knowing the future by divination

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thank you for the link to the commentary by 王夫之.  But I do not believe that "人情" here is "knowing the future through divination". Since we have in the Liji 18: 何谓人情？喜、怒、哀、惧、爱、恶、欲，七者弗学而能 So, should "人情" not first of all mean: "human feelings, emotions" or "human dispositions"?  
> **username_2**: In Chinese a word may have several different meaning. Here's a word called "天道人情" where 人情 means human nature. and I think human nature desribes more accurate than my first explanation. Any way, for me, here 人情means the common rule/law in human world.  

---

