<p>There is already a good discussion going below the original question. I'll just strip the Wiktionary link and put it down here:</p>

<p><a href="http://zh.wiktionary.org/zh/%E5%85%AE#.E6.B1.89.E8.AF.AD" rel="nofollow">http://zh.wiktionary.org/zh/%E5%85%AE#.E6.B1.89.E8.AF.AD</a></p>

<pre><code>字   Mandarin  MiddleChinese  OldChinese  Cantonese
兮   xī        hej            /*ɡˁe/      hai4       
</code></pre>

<p>And also:</p>

<pre><code>Japanese   Korean   Vietnamese
kei        hyey     hề
</code></pre>

<p>So the consonant is along the line of <code>g</code> and <code>h</code>, something down the throat, unlike <code>xi</code> which is in the mouth.</p>

<p>While I don't agree with Phil on "兮 is nothing but a punctuation" and "Dialects were totally unintelligible so people had to write to each other even if they met face-to-face", I agree with him that a standard classic Chinese dialect didn't really exist. There could be many ways to read 兮 in ancient times, especially the vowel, although it's thought to be <code>e</code>, I wouldn't be surprised if it was shifted to <code>a</code>, <code>o</code> or any strange diphthongs in a local dialect.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-03T15:04:55.850Z
agree on all points - i didn't mean to imply otherwise.  mainly concerned with how to deal with the poetry as it was *spoken*, as impossible a task as that is given the distance in time.  knowing how characters 兮 functioned is certainly relevant to that, so thank you for putting together an answer.
Master Sparkles
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-03T15:00:33.510Z
2015-01-03T15:00:33.510Z
Wang Dingwei
<p>I recently bought the book <em>ABC Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese</em> in an effort to get minimally smart about old phonology. But the #1 character I'm curious about, with regard to old poems, is 兮 - Mandarin <code>xi1</code> - and it's missing from the dictionary! Which is weird, because the character is seen ALL the time in classical poetry, especially very old poetry from Jin all the way back (I believe) to 诗经, and appears to be used phonologically as an interjection like "oh!" or "ah!".</p>

<p>Does anyone know what the reconstructed Old Chinese pronunciation of this character is? Alternately, does it sound radically different (perhaps, at least subjectively, more like an exclamation "should" sound like) in dialects other than Mandarin?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T17:36:47.277Z
Most characters in Old Chinese sound radically different even from Middle Chinese, let alone modern mandarin...
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T17:38:35.277Z
true - but having listened in awe to Cantonese speakers belt out 李白 poetry, even modern dialects not Mandarin seem to preserve a lot more "data" about the way this stuff is "supposed" to sound like.
Master Sparkles
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T17:38:53.003Z
The Old Chinese pronunciation is thought to be /*ɡe/ where the /g/ is a pharyngealized sound
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T17:39:43.163Z
post as answer (preferably with source, not out skepticism, so I can find more answers wherever you are)
Master Sparkles
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T17:40:51.987Z
李白 is Middle Chinese, not Old Chinese... Old Chinese is really really different -- it had no tones but consonant clusters, a lot of pharyngealized consonants, etc...
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T17:42:28.487Z
Baxter-Sagart Old Chinese construction: http://ocbaxtersagart.lsait.lsa.umich.edu/BaxterSagartOCbyMandarinMC2014-09-20.pdf
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T17:43:11.513Z
oh excellent, and it's free. 3Q!
Master Sparkles
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T17:45:10.467Z
oh and regarding Li Bai being Middle Chinese - I think xi1 is still used as an actual interjection (Rather than convention) in Tang poetry, even though by Qing Dynasty it had definitely ceased to serve any actual use (according to Yuan Mei).  So would still be interested in later pronunciations perhaps preserved in modern non-Mandarin dialects.
Master Sparkles
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T17:50:23.557Z
After the Old Chinese era, writing and speaking have sort of been 'separated'. It is way more likely that 诗经 was based on the actual Old Chinese pronunciation at that time (and it is believed so) than later works on the actual Middle Chinese pronunciation.
user58955
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-01T20:27:57.773Z
apparently Middle Chinese it was pronounced "hej" in phonetic alphabet - so like "hey"? Sounds a LOT more like an exclamation.
Master Sparkles
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-02T07:27:25.230Z
Viêtnamese hề, Cantonese hai4.
dda
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-03T13:08:23.460Z
Apologies, I probably should have clarified I was trying to use "Old Chinese" in the technical sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Chinese . 兮 seems to function different from the particle 也 which almost never seems to appear in poetry - while 兮 does mark blocks of meaning it seems plausible to interpret it, at least originally, as serving an exclamatory purpose as well.  Hence the interest in the reconstructed pronunciation: hard for me to imagine old Chinese people exclaiming "Oh why oh why doesn't the emperor like me ... SHEEEEEEEEEEEE... guess it's into the river I go." (pace Qu Yuan)
Master Sparkles
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-03T14:22:17.997Z
on the other hand, 也 might serve an exclamatory purpose as well- for example when 也 appears in 崑曲 suzhou dialect it is long and drawn out exactly like another kind of exclamation. all very interesting...
Master Sparkles
<pronunciation><poetry>
What is the Old Chinese Pronunciation for the Character 兮?
# What is the Old Chinese Pronunciation for the Character 兮?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2015-01-01)

I recently bought the book *ABC Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese* in an effort to get minimally smart about old phonology. But the #1 character I'm curious about, with regard to old poems, is 兮 - Mandarin `xi1` - and it's missing from the dictionary! Which is weird, because the character is seen ALL the time in classical poetry, especially very old poetry from Jin all the way back (I believe) to 诗经, and appears to be used phonologically as an interjection like "oh!" or "ah!".

Does anyone know what the reconstructed Old Chinese pronunciation of this character is? Alternately, does it sound radically different (perhaps, at least subjectively, more like an exclamation "should" sound like) in dialects other than Mandarin?

**Tags:** pronunciation, poetry
> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Most characters in Old Chinese sound radically different even from Middle Chinese, let alone modern mandarin...  
> **username_0**: true - but having listened in awe to Cantonese speakers belt out 李白 poetry, even modern dialects not Mandarin seem to preserve a lot more "data" about the way this stuff is "supposed" to sound like.  
> **username_1**: The Old Chinese pronunciation is thought to be /*ɡe/ where the /g/ is a pharyngealized sound  
> **username_0**: post as answer (preferably with source, not out skepticism, so I can find more answers wherever you are)  
> **username_1**: 李白 is Middle Chinese, not Old Chinese... Old Chinese is really really different -- it had no tones but consonant clusters, a lot of pharyngealized consonants, etc...  
> **username_1**: Baxter-Sagart Old Chinese construction: http://ocbaxtersagart.lsait.lsa.umich.edu/BaxterSagartOCbyMandarinMC2014-09-20.pdf  
> **username_0**: oh excellent, and it's free. 3Q!  
> **username_0**: oh and regarding Li Bai being Middle Chinese - I think xi1 is still used as an actual interjection (Rather than convention) in Tang poetry, even though by Qing Dynasty it had definitely ceased to serve any actual use (according to Yuan Mei).  So would still be interested in later pronunciations perhaps preserved in modern non-Mandarin dialects.  
> **username_1**: After the Old Chinese era, writing and speaking have sort of been 'separated'. It is way more likely that 诗经 was based on the actual Old Chinese pronunciation at that time (and it is believed so) than later works on the actual Middle Chinese pronunciation.  
> **username_0**: apparently Middle Chinese it was pronounced "hej" in phonetic alphabet - so like "hey"? Sounds a LOT more like an exclamation.  
> **username_2**: Viêtnamese hề, Cantonese hai4.  
> **username_0**: Apologies, I probably should have clarified I was trying to use "Old Chinese" in the technical sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Chinese . 兮 seems to function different from the particle 也 which almost never seems to appear in poetry - while 兮 does mark blocks of meaning it seems plausible to interpret it, at least originally, as serving an exclamatory purpose as well.  Hence the interest in the reconstructed pronunciation: hard for me to imagine old Chinese people exclaiming "Oh why oh why doesn't the emperor like me ... SHEEEEEEEEEEEE... guess it's into the river I go." (pace Qu Yuan)  
> **username_0**: on the other hand, 也 might serve an exclamatory purpose as well- for example when 也 appears in 崑曲 suzhou dialect it is long and drawn out exactly like another kind of exclamation. all very interesting...  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2015-01-03. Score: 2 | Accepted answer

There is already a good discussion going below the original question. I'll just strip the Wiktionary link and put it down here:
http://zh.wiktionary.org/zh/%E5%85%AE#.E6.B1.89.E8.AF.AD
字   Mandarin  MiddleChinese  OldChinese  Cantonese
兮   xī        hej            /*ɡˁe/      hai4       

And also:
Japanese   Korean   Vietnamese
kei        hyey     hề

So the consonant is along the line of g and h, something down the throat, unlike xi which is in the mouth.
While I don't agree with Phil on "兮 is nothing but a punctuation" and "Dialects were totally unintelligible so people had to write to each other even if they met face-to-face", I agree with him that a standard classic Chinese dialect didn't really exist. There could be many ways to read 兮 in ancient times, especially the vowel, although it's thought to be e, I wouldn't be surprised if it was shifted to a, o or any strange diphthongs in a local dialect.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: agree on all points - i didn't mean to imply otherwise.  mainly concerned with how to deal with the poetry as it was *spoken*, as impossible a task as that is given the distance in time.  knowing how characters 兮 functioned is certainly relevant to that, so thank you for putting together an answer.  

---

