<p>This is a case that there is no complete answer. Some clues:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>The 金文 glyph is somehow different than the 篆文 glyph. The 金文 glyph <a href="https://i.sstatic.net/0cNoN.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/0cNoN.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a> shows a person digging holes and putting seeds in, as well as covering with earth. So it is related to farming. This can also be seen from meaning of derived characters. E.g.</p>
<ul>
<li>壤 means earth/soil</li>
<li>穰 means straw of rice/wheat. Derived to mean bumper harvest.</li>
<li>攘 means to plow. Derived to mean to push, to disrupt, etc.</li>
</ul>
<p>And, when used as 谥号, it says &quot;辟地有德曰襄&quot;, meaning if the leader extended the land (like plowing) and get fruitful results for the people, he/she can be named 襄 after death.
So, 襄 also has derived meaning of &quot;achievement&quot;. Also &quot;to manage&quot;, &quot;to assist (the king)&quot;, &quot;to harness&quot;</p>
</li>
<li><p>However, in the 篆文 glyph, it became a 形声字, composed of 衣 and , where  is the sound component. It is unclear what  really is, as it is a rare character. According 说文/漢令，the 篆文 glyph of 襄 character is interpreted as 解衣耕, which is to take off cloths to plow, which tried to explain why it used the 衣 component as the meaning note.</p>
<ul>
<li>If you look at the 籀文 glyph of , the cross in the middle looks a bit like a plow. A wild guess is that it was mistakenly messed up with that character, and then the wrong one became the right one.</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li><p>The character was also borrowed to mean other words as they have the same pronunciation. e.g. to be used instead of 向/曏, which means in-direction-of /face-to.</p>
<ul>
<li>The meaning of 上 (high, rise) may also be a borrow, as 襄 and 上 could have sounded similar in the early days. And at that time, the character of 上 and 二 look almost the same. It is easier to read if a different character with the same sound is used. No proof though.</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-10T20:31:46.807Z
Well that makes kind of sense on why I see the glyph 襄 appearing in farm-related characters. And I guess now I know that  just existed when 襄 became a phonosemantic compound character. The bronze script of 襄 is really tough to see though, I can't really see the resemblance of a person digging up a hole and placing seeds into it. Maybe the 攴 component in that form is supposed to represent the person using some kind of digging tool to dig up a hole with?
prismcool
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-11T13:51:54.827Z
There are multiple glyphs which look some how different. I added the picture of the one I copied explanation from. I'm not sure that's the correct interpretation either, as it cannot explain the other forms. Personally, I'd interpret the middle component as a plow, which then can provide a consistent interpretation to other forms. But I'm no expert on these scripts.
Dudu
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-11T17:07:02.823Z
It's fine, I think the interpretation seems kind of plausible looking at the bronze script but hard to make out. For me, I would probably explain the oracle bone/bronze script as depicting a person with some kind of headwear on them to indicate some sort of inferior person or slave who'd assist the superior people (Followed by the addition of adding in dirt (土), because slaves would work for their masters, and a hand with some kind of stick (攴) to keep the slave in following order)
prismcool
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-12T02:34:03.627Z
Well, that's very a western way of thinking. Chinese culture is an agriculture one, where earth/soil is precious. There is even an ancient tradition that the king/emperor would do some plow in a spring sacrifice event, to pray for good harvest. So 土 would not be used for bad meaning.
Dudu
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-12T02:51:35.757Z
Also, even though slaves did exist back in 夏商周 times, it was not treated as good but more of a punishment, so rulers wouldn't talk about it normally. The rulers were obsessed to talk about good things, painting them as a leader everyone would love and follow. So, no, they won't use a slave in a character.
Dudu
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-12T03:08:52.873Z
Yeah, I guess there's that point there. I mean there's a few characters that implies slavery (民 for example, it's a picture of a sharp object poking an eye, representing a punishment for slaves), but I think you might be right about people slaves being used in characters, most of them I know of is just implied methods of slavery. I mean one character I can think of where it depicts a person slave is 卂, where one scholar thought it represented a captured and tied up prisoner of war, but then again this character's origin is kind of uncertain.
prismcool
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-13T14:38:40.780Z
Personally, I'd not interpret 民 that way. Because slaves were not counted as 民. 民 was similar to citizen. The formal definition was people who were not smart/educated, thus they should follow orders. The character was interpreted as 萌 (meaning the early stage just after birth) in ancient "dictionaries", which was also sometimes substitute as 蒙 (which is 朦 later, meaning not seeing clearly).  So, I'd interpret the bronze script as not able to see clearly.
Dudu
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-10T05:53:10.053Z
2024-02-11T13:46:40.213Z
2024-02-11T13:46:40.213Z
Dudu
<p>Currently right now, I'm researching about the origins of the character 襄 (xiāng; <em>to help</em>, <em>to assist</em>) and the component that's presumably part of 襄 as sound component,  (níng; <em>unidentified meaning</em>). This character is sort of hard to look for the origins on because just at taking a look at the ancient forms of this character, I can't really draw a conclusion to what the character  is supposed to depict.</p>
<p>From taking look at 's ancient forms on 小學堂, it seems like the original shape of this character in oracle bone depicts a man (人) with something on top of his head. However as seen in the bronze inscriptions, 攴 (hand holding a whip or staff) and 土 (dirt; earth) were added later to the character.
<a href="https://i.sstatic.net/gjvKZ.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/gjvKZ.jpg" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
<p>I've actually taken a look at what some sources say about the origin of  and only found two sources on the explaination of the character, this is what both of them suggested:</p>
<p><strong>zi.tools</strong>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>&quot;It can be analysed this character is composed by 吅, 土 and 攴 but with unknown origin.&quot;</p>
</blockquote>
<p><strong>許進雄《甲骨文字典》p.241</strong> (2020 edition to be more specific)</p>
<blockquote>
<p>&quot;金文的字形很像一人手拿木棍,在監督著另一個頭上頂著一個籃筐要運土塊的人。&quot; / &quot;The bronze inscription depicts a man holding a wooden stick in his hand supervising another man carrying a basket of dirt on his head.&quot;</p>
</blockquote>
<p>On the other hand, when I looked up some origins for 襄, a few of time suggested 襄 is a phonosemantic compound composed of meaning component 衣 (clothes) and sound component . As shown here:</p>
<p><strong>漢語多功能字庫</strong>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>&quot;「襄」字的構形初意不明。甲骨文從◎(所象形不明)從「卩」或「大」，疑象人伸手解衣，致力於耕作之形(許慎、劉心源、高鴻縉)。&quot; / &quot;The original meaning of 襄 is unclear. The oracle bone script is composed of ◎ (the object depicted is unclear) and 卩 or 大. It has been speculated that it may depict a person using their hand to loosen their clothing to put more effort into farming. (Xu Shen, Liu Xinyuan, Gao Hongjin)&quot;</p>
</blockquote>
<p><strong>Outlier Linguistics Dictionary of Chinese Characters</strong>, <strong>Wiktionary</strong> and <strong>zi.tools</strong>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Suggests it's a phonosemantic compound composed of meaning component 衣 (clothes) and sound component  with Outlier explaining the original meaning is &quot;to roll up the sleeves and stretch one’s arms out&quot;.</p>
</blockquote>
<p><strong>許進雄《甲骨文字典》p.241</strong> (2020 edition)</p>
<blockquote>
<p>&quot;雙手扶住一把犁,前頭有一隻牛拉著,揚起灰塵的耕田景象。&quot; / &quot;It depicts two hands pulling a plow that is pulled up by an ox in front of them, with dust being thrown into the field.&quot; (Extra note, the oracle bone as shown is this one as shown in the book: <a href="https://i.sstatic.net/4GE2w.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/4GE2w.jpg" alt="enter image description here" /></a>)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Whatever the case might be, I'm still having a harder determining what the character is supposed to pick so if I can have some info, what is the original depiction of  and 襄 and what was the original meaning used for both of these characters? Was 襄 a phonosemantic compound or originally a depiction of something? How did the process of the  component made it's way into 襄?</p>
<p>This is something I need help on since I have no clue on the actual origin whatsoever about both the characters 襄 and  since I'm pretty confused about these two characters' origins.</p>
<p>(Btw also, I don't really see the depiction of a man loosening clothing on his body in the oracle bone script. Maybe it's drawn in a stylized way?)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-02T07:45:30.620Z
Unfortunately I think this is a time wehre the fact that etymology is a reconstructed history shows through, there just isn't enough evidence known to answer your question, the evolution of this vocab hasn't been reasonably reconstructed yet.  I can tell you that many of the occasions of 襄 in oracle bone script are as a proper noun place name, which would lend to the fact its used for its sound originally even more.
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-02T07:46:23.507Z
Also I have seen the etymology of it being two people helping each other with clothes, but that would be an etymology for the modern form, not the ancient ones.
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-02T15:38:18.067Z
@zagrycha Yeah, looks like the context I'm reading this character in seems to be that way. I don't really believe the interpretation for "two people helping each other with clothes" since 吅 wasn't really present in the character during the older forms (Well maybe expect on 樂子簠 inscription where 口 was added and 土 transformed into a circle (〇)).
prismcool
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-02-02T19:05:20.997Z
Within books I can see, there is no recent discussion over 襄. There is a 2020 conference paper 吴良宝《秦文字“襄”地补说》 which is about 襄 as a place name (not about glyph origin), but I do not have access to it. (http://www.fdgwz.org.cn/Web/Show/4682)
user2249675
<characters><glyph-origin>
What is the glyph origins of 襄 and ?
# What is the glyph origins of 襄 and ?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-02-02)

Currently right now, I'm researching about the origins of the character 襄 (xiāng; *to help*, *to assist*) and the component that's presumably part of 襄 as sound component, (níng; *unidentified meaning*). This character is sort of hard to look for the origins on because just at taking a look at the ancient forms of this character, I can't really draw a conclusion to what the character is supposed to depict.

From taking look at 's ancient forms on 小學堂, it seems like the original shape of this character in oracle bone depicts a man (人) with something on top of his head. However as seen in the bronze inscriptions, 攴 (hand holding a whip or staff) and 土 (dirt; earth) were added later to the character.
[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/gjvKZ.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/gjvKZ.jpg)

I've actually taken a look at what some sources say about the origin of and only found two sources on the explaination of the character, this is what both of them suggested:

**zi.tools**:

> "It can be analysed this character is composed by 吅, 土 and 攴 but with unknown origin."

**許進雄《甲骨文字典》p.241** (2020 edition to be more specific)

> "金文的字形很像一人手拿木棍,在監督著另一個頭上頂著一個籃筐要運土塊的人。" / "The bronze inscription depicts a man holding a wooden stick in his hand supervising another man carrying a basket of dirt on his head."

On the other hand, when I looked up some origins for 襄, a few of time suggested 襄 is a phonosemantic compound composed of meaning component 衣 (clothes) and sound component . As shown here:

**漢語多功能字庫**:

> "「襄」字的構形初意不明。甲骨文從◎(所象形不明)從「卩」或「大」，疑象人伸手解衣，致力於耕作之形(許慎、劉心源、高鴻縉)。" / "The original meaning of 襄 is unclear. The oracle bone script is composed of ◎ (the object depicted is unclear) and 卩 or 大. It has been speculated that it may depict a person using their hand to loosen their clothing to put more effort into farming. (Xu Shen, Liu Xinyuan, Gao Hongjin)"

**Outlier Linguistics Dictionary of Chinese Characters**, **Wiktionary** and **zi.tools**:

> Suggests it's a phonosemantic compound composed of meaning component 衣 (clothes) and sound component with Outlier explaining the original meaning is "to roll up the sleeves and stretch one’s arms out".

**許進雄《甲骨文字典》p.241** (2020 edition)

> "雙手扶住一把犁,前頭有一隻牛拉著,揚起灰塵的耕田景象。" / "It depicts two hands pulling a plow that is pulled up by an ox in front of them, with dust being thrown into the field." (Extra note, the oracle bone as shown is this one as shown in the book: [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/4GE2w.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/4GE2w.jpg))

Whatever the case might be, I'm still having a harder determining what the character is supposed to pick so if I can have some info, what is the original depiction of and 襄 and what was the original meaning used for both of these characters? Was 襄 a phonosemantic compound or originally a depiction of something? How did the process of the component made it's way into 襄?

This is something I need help on since I have no clue on the actual origin whatsoever about both the characters 襄 and since I'm pretty confused about these two characters' origins.

(Btw also, I don't really see the depiction of a man loosening clothing on his body in the oracle bone script. Maybe it's drawn in a stylized way?)

**Tags:** characters, glyph-origin
> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Unfortunately I think this is a time wehre the fact that etymology is a reconstructed history shows through, there just isn't enough evidence known to answer your question, the evolution of this vocab hasn't been reasonably reconstructed yet.  I can tell you that many of the occasions of 襄 in oracle bone script are as a proper noun place name, which would lend to the fact its used for its sound originally even more.  
> **username_1**: Also I have seen the etymology of it being two people helping each other with clothes, but that would be an etymology for the modern form, not the ancient ones.  
> **username_0**: @zagrycha Yeah, looks like the context I'm reading this character in seems to be that way. I don't really believe the interpretation for "two people helping each other with clothes" since 吅 wasn't really present in the character during the older forms (Well maybe expect on 樂子簠 inscription where 口 was added and 土 transformed into a circle (〇)).  
> **username_2**: Within books I can see, there is no recent discussion over 襄. There is a 2020 conference paper 吴良宝《秦文字“襄”地补说》 which is about 襄 as a place name (not about glyph origin), but I do not have access to it. (http://www.fdgwz.org.cn/Web/Show/4682)  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2024-02-10. Score: 1 | Accepted answer

This is a case that there is no complete answer. Some clues:

* The 金文 glyph is somehow different than the 篆文 glyph. The 金文 glyph [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/0cNoN.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/0cNoN.png) shows a person digging holes and putting seeds in, as well as covering with earth. So it is related to farming. This can also be seen from meaning of derived characters. E.g.

  + 壤 means earth/soil
  + 穰 means straw of rice/wheat. Derived to mean bumper harvest.
  + 攘 means to plow. Derived to mean to push, to disrupt, etc.

  And, when used as 谥号, it says "辟地有德曰襄", meaning if the leader extended the land (like plowing) and get fruitful results for the people, he/she can be named 襄 after death.
  So, 襄 also has derived meaning of "achievement". Also "to manage", "to assist (the king)", "to harness"
* However, in the 篆文 glyph, it became a 形声字, composed of 衣 and , where is the sound component. It is unclear what really is, as it is a rare character. According 说文/漢令，the 篆文 glyph of 襄 character is interpreted as 解衣耕, which is to take off cloths to plow, which tried to explain why it used the 衣 component as the meaning note.

  + If you look at the 籀文 glyph of , the cross in the middle looks a bit like a plow. A wild guess is that it was mistakenly messed up with that character, and then the wrong one became the right one.
* The character was also borrowed to mean other words as they have the same pronunciation. e.g. to be used instead of 向/曏, which means in-direction-of /face-to.

  + The meaning of 上 (high, rise) may also be a borrow, as 襄 and 上 could have sounded similar in the early days. And at that time, the character of 上 and 二 look almost the same. It is easier to read if a different character with the same sound is used. No proof though.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Well that makes kind of sense on why I see the glyph 襄 appearing in farm-related characters. And I guess now I know that  just existed when 襄 became a phonosemantic compound character. The bronze script of 襄 is really tough to see though, I can't really see the resemblance of a person digging up a hole and placing seeds into it. Maybe the 攴 component in that form is supposed to represent the person using some kind of digging tool to dig up a hole with?  
> **username_3**: There are multiple glyphs which look some how different. I added the picture of the one I copied explanation from. I'm not sure that's the correct interpretation either, as it cannot explain the other forms. Personally, I'd interpret the middle component as a plow, which then can provide a consistent interpretation to other forms. But I'm no expert on these scripts.  
> **username_0**: It's fine, I think the interpretation seems kind of plausible looking at the bronze script but hard to make out. For me, I would probably explain the oracle bone/bronze script as depicting a person with some kind of headwear on them to indicate some sort of inferior person or slave who'd assist the superior people (Followed by the addition of adding in dirt (土), because slaves would work for their masters, and a hand with some kind of stick (攴) to keep the slave in following order)  
> **username_3**: Well, that's very a western way of thinking. Chinese culture is an agriculture one, where earth/soil is precious. There is even an ancient tradition that the king/emperor would do some plow in a spring sacrifice event, to pray for good harvest. So 土 would not be used for bad meaning.  
> **username_3**: Also, even though slaves did exist back in 夏商周 times, it was not treated as good but more of a punishment, so rulers wouldn't talk about it normally. The rulers were obsessed to talk about good things, painting them as a leader everyone would love and follow. So, no, they won't use a slave in a character.  
> **username_0**: Yeah, I guess there's that point there. I mean there's a few characters that implies slavery (民 for example, it's a picture of a sharp object poking an eye, representing a punishment for slaves), but I think you might be right about people slaves being used in characters, most of them I know of is just implied methods of slavery. I mean one character I can think of where it depicts a person slave is 卂, where one scholar thought it represented a captured and tied up prisoner of war, but then again this character's origin is kind of uncertain.  
> **username_3**: Personally, I'd not interpret 民 that way. Because slaves were not counted as 民. 民 was similar to citizen. The formal definition was people who were not smart/educated, thus they should follow orders. The character was interpreted as 萌 (meaning the early stage just after birth) in ancient "dictionaries", which was also sometimes substitute as 蒙 (which is 朦 later, meaning not seeing clearly).  So, I'd interpret the bronze script as not able to see clearly.  

---

