<p><a href="https://www.sohu.com/a/165583228_433022" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Story 1</a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>相传有个叫彭祖的人，寿命有八百岁。一生到过不少地方，就是不曾到过黄河.....</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>彭祖 lived for 800 years but never saw the Yellow River</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>当时陈抟就走到彭祖的坟边，打开坟洞，拉出棺材。把棺材打开一看，彭祖的骨肉都烂掉了，只剩下一个心未烂</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>陈抟 went to 彭祖's grave, open his coffin, and found 彭祖's body had decayed except his heart</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>陈抟随手提起彭祖的心，带到黄河去。到了黄河边，陈抟就对彭祖的心讲：“彭祖，这里就是黄河了。” 陈抟的话刚讲完，彭祖的心一下子烂掉，变成水流走了。</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>陈抟 took 彭祖's heart to the Yellow River side and 彭祖's heart finally turned to water and washed away</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That is the story of 不到黄河心不死</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sohu.com/a/417946175_100177711" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Story 2</a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>这句话最初的版本是 &quot;不到乌江心不死&quot;</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>The original version was “不到<strong>乌江</strong>心不死</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>西楚霸王 lost the war for the control of China against the Han army. His final stand was at 乌江 where he finally lost all hope (心死 )and committed suicide. Later people replaced &quot;乌江&quot; in &quot;不到乌江心不死&quot; with the more commonly known river -- 黄河</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>黄河是中华文明的发祥地，孕育着华夏民族的智慧与文化。中华民族的始祖黄帝便兴起于黄河流域</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>The Yellow River is the birthplace of Chinese civilization, which nurtures the wisdom and culture of the Chinese nation. The first ancestor of the Chinese nation, the Yellow Emperor, arose in the Yellow River Basin</p>
</blockquote>
<p>黄河 was the most famous river in China and many idioms have mentioned it, for example, 跳进黄河也洗不清 (Even Jump into the Yellow River cannot clear the suspect upon someone)</p>
<p>I think the most reasonable explanation is that 黄河 being the most famous river in China, it naturally became the first choice in idioms that needed a river name. Similarly, a lot of idioms mentioned 泰山 instead of any other mountains because 泰山 was the most famous mountain in China.</p>
<p>黃河清，聖人出；黃河之水天上來</p>
<p>泰山崩於前而色不變；死有重於泰山; 泰山壓頂</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-07T09:08:38.227Z
2022-09-07T09:22:48.787Z
2022-09-07T09:22:48.787Z
Tang Ho
<p>It is actually quite interesting because the 黄河 here is not the actual river, but the same meaning as the river Styx, in Greek mythology, one of the rivers of the underworld.</p>
<p>So, when one is at the river Styx, it means that one is already dead. Similarly, when one arrives at the mythical 到黄河, it signifies death.</p>
<p>Therefore the sentence 不到黄河心不死 should mean &quot;So long as haven't reached the 黄河, the heart, (Hope), would not die, because so long as there is life, there is hope still&quot;, because it is only with death,i.e. on reaching 黄河 that all hope is lost. Therefore,&quot;to keep going while some hope is left&quot;</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-07T09:40:05.293Z
This 黄河 thing is also "played out" at funerals of certain ethnic groups. I remember when my grandfather died, at his funeral, the monks erected some kind of sandy structure to signify the underworld 黄河, and chants were made to "guide" my grandfather's soul to the "river" There is a belief that sometimes the dead person may not realize he is actually dead, and so runs the danger of becoming a "wandering lost ghost" inhabiting the human world (why people see ghosts) And so "guiding" the soul to the 黄河 brings the realization of one's death and so proceed to the "proper" place for reincarnation.
Wayne Cheah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-07T19:49:57.927Z
黄泉 signifies underworld, not 黄河
Tang Ho
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-07T23:16:11.697Z
I've seen pubs with a sign above the door: "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here!"
Pedroski
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-08T02:39:55.077Z
@Tang Ho -- My comment was to say that the "sandy structure" to represent 黄河 built by the monks was to indicate to the soul that it has arrived at the underworld. In any case the "underworld" has more than one name, besides 黄泉, like, 地狱, 阴间,下域. I suppose different parts of ancient China have many ethnic representations of what the "Underworld" is called and what it is like, just like the "other" place, Heaven which also has many names and many representations.
Wayne Cheah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-08T02:53:44.513Z
@Pedroski -- Quote - "Abandon hope"? If you ask the Irish, they'll say "No!", because whisky is called, by them, "Uisce beatha", literally meaning "Water of Life", the name for whiskey in Irish. So, where there is "Life", there is "Hope", and with all the gallons of whisky found in a Pub, there is an abundance of "Hope" :) Please, I am not advocating alcohol consumption on a family Website, in case people get the wrong idea, though I am not a member of the Temperance Society.
Wayne Cheah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-07T09:12:34.583Z
2022-09-07T09:46:38.153Z
2022-09-07T09:46:38.153Z
Wayne Cheah
<p><strong>Per Baidu:</strong></p>
<p>“不到黄河心不死”是汉语词汇，拼音是bù dào huáng hé xīn bù sǐ，意思是不到无路可走的地步是不肯死心的。比喻不达目的不罢休。 <strong>[1]</strong>  常见的说法是由“不到乌江心不死”讹变而来，出自明代小说《初刻拍案惊奇》卷十五。 <strong>[2]</strong>  而“不到黄河心不死”本句出自清代小说《荡寇志》第八十二卷。</p>
<p><a href="https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E9%BB%84%E6%B2%B3%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%BB/1261714" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E9%BB%84%E6%B2%B3%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%BB/1261714</a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-08T06:17:32.000Z
Quote:- 意思是不到无路可走的地步是不肯死心的。OK, but OP's question is "Why is 黄河 used in the saying 不到黄河心不死?"
Wayne Cheah
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-08T11:27:12.017Z
@WayneCheah I've no answer to it but to provide more clues for research.
r13
CC BY-SA 4.0
2022-09-07T16:37:53.827Z
2022-09-07T16:54:01.793Z
2022-09-07T16:54:01.793Z
r13
<p>In Chinese, there's a saying along the lines of &quot;it's not over until the fat lady sings&quot;:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://www.mdbg.net/chinese/dictionary?wdqb=%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E9%BB%84%E6%B2%B3%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%BB" rel="nofollow noreferrer">CC-CEDICT</a>: <strong>不到黄河心不死</strong>: lit. not to stop until one reaches the Yellow River (idiom) / fig. to persevere until one reaches one's goal / to keep going while some hope is left</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm curious as to why 黄河 = &quot;Yellow River&quot; is used here.  I didn't find the answer at <a href="https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E9%BB%84%E6%B2%B3%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%BB/1261714" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Baidu Baike</a> nor <a href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E9%BB%83%E6%B2%B3%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%BB" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Wiktionary</a>.  Baidu Baike indicates it originated from Qing Dynasty novels (by 茅盾 and 李宝嘉), so the use of 黃河 may be part of the context of these novels.</p>
<p><strong>Question</strong>: Why is 黄河 used in the saying 不到黄河心不死?</p>

<usage><etymology><colloquialisms>
Why is 黄河 used in the saying 不到黄河心不死?
# Why is 黄河 used in the saying 不到黄河心不死?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2022-09-07)

In Chinese, there's a saying along the lines of "it's not over until the fat lady sings":

> [CC-CEDICT](https://www.mdbg.net/chinese/dictionary?wdqb=%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E9%BB%84%E6%B2%B3%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%BB): **不到黄河心不死**: lit. not to stop until one reaches the Yellow River (idiom) / fig. to persevere until one reaches one's goal / to keep going while some hope is left

I'm curious as to why 黄河 = "Yellow River" is used here. I didn't find the answer at [Baidu Baike](https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E9%BB%84%E6%B2%B3%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%BB/1261714) nor [Wiktionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E9%BB%83%E6%B2%B3%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%BB). Baidu Baike indicates it originated from Qing Dynasty novels (by 茅盾 and 李宝嘉), so the use of 黃河 may be part of the context of these novels.

**Question**: Why is 黄河 used in the saying 不到黄河心不死?

**Tags:** usage, etymology, colloquialisms

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2022-09-07. Score: 4

[Story 1](https://www.sohu.com/a/165583228_433022)

> 相传有个叫彭祖的人，寿命有八百岁。一生到过不少地方，就是不曾到过黄河.....

> 彭祖 lived for 800 years but never saw the Yellow River

> 当时陈抟就走到彭祖的坟边，打开坟洞，拉出棺材。把棺材打开一看，彭祖的骨肉都烂掉了，只剩下一个心未烂

> 陈抟 went to 彭祖's grave, open his coffin, and found 彭祖's body had decayed except his heart

> 陈抟随手提起彭祖的心，带到黄河去。到了黄河边，陈抟就对彭祖的心讲：“彭祖，这里就是黄河了。” 陈抟的话刚讲完，彭祖的心一下子烂掉，变成水流走了。

> 陈抟 took 彭祖's heart to the Yellow River side and 彭祖's heart finally turned to water and washed away

That is the story of 不到黄河心不死

[Story 2](https://www.sohu.com/a/417946175_100177711)

> 这句话最初的版本是 "不到乌江心不死"

> The original version was “不到**乌江**心不死

> 西楚霸王 lost the war for the control of China against the Han army. His final stand was at 乌江 where he finally lost all hope (心死 )and committed suicide. Later people replaced "乌江" in "不到乌江心不死" with the more commonly known river -- 黄河

> 黄河是中华文明的发祥地，孕育着华夏民族的智慧与文化。中华民族的始祖黄帝便兴起于黄河流域

> The Yellow River is the birthplace of Chinese civilization, which nurtures the wisdom and culture of the Chinese nation. The first ancestor of the Chinese nation, the Yellow Emperor, arose in the Yellow River Basin

黄河 was the most famous river in China and many idioms have mentioned it, for example, 跳进黄河也洗不清 (Even Jump into the Yellow River cannot clear the suspect upon someone)

I think the most reasonable explanation is that 黄河 being the most famous river in China, it naturally became the first choice in idioms that needed a river name. Similarly, a lot of idioms mentioned 泰山 instead of any other mountains because 泰山 was the most famous mountain in China.

黃河清，聖人出；黃河之水天上來

泰山崩於前而色不變；死有重於泰山; 泰山壓頂


---

### Answer by username_2 on 2022-09-07. Score: 2

It is actually quite interesting because the 黄河 here is not the actual river, but the same meaning as the river Styx, in Greek mythology, one of the rivers of the underworld.

So, when one is at the river Styx, it means that one is already dead. Similarly, when one arrives at the mythical 到黄河, it signifies death.

Therefore the sentence 不到黄河心不死 should mean "So long as haven't reached the 黄河, the heart, (Hope), would not die, because so long as there is life, there is hope still", because it is only with death,i.e. on reaching 黄河 that all hope is lost. Therefore,"to keep going while some hope is left"

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: This 黄河 thing is also "played out" at funerals of certain ethnic groups. I remember when my grandfather died, at his funeral, the monks erected some kind of sandy structure to signify the underworld 黄河, and chants were made to "guide" my grandfather's soul to the "river" There is a belief that sometimes the dead person may not realize he is actually dead, and so runs the danger of becoming a "wandering lost ghost" inhabiting the human world (why people see ghosts) And so "guiding" the soul to the 黄河 brings the realization of one's death and so proceed to the "proper" place for reincarnation.  
> **username_1**: 黄泉 signifies underworld, not 黄河  
> **username_3**: I've seen pubs with a sign above the door: "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here!"  
> **username_2**: @Tang Ho -- My comment was to say that the "sandy structure" to represent 黄河 built by the monks was to indicate to the soul that it has arrived at the underworld. In any case the "underworld" has more than one name, besides 黄泉, like, 地狱, 阴间,下域. I suppose different parts of ancient China have many ethnic representations of what the "Underworld" is called and what it is like, just like the "other" place, Heaven which also has many names and many representations.  
> **username_2**: @Pedroski -- Quote - "Abandon hope"? If you ask the Irish, they'll say "No!", because whisky is called, by them, "Uisce beatha", literally meaning "Water of Life", the name for whiskey in Irish. So, where there is "Life", there is "Hope", and with all the gallons of whisky found in a Pub, there is an abundance of "Hope" :) Please, I am not advocating alcohol consumption on a family Website, in case people get the wrong idea, though I am not a member of the Temperance Society.  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2022-09-07. Score: 0

**Per Baidu:**

“不到黄河心不死”是汉语词汇，拼音是bù dào huáng hé xīn bù sǐ，意思是不到无路可走的地步是不肯死心的。比喻不达目的不罢休。 **[1]** 常见的说法是由“不到乌江心不死”讹变而来，出自明代小说《初刻拍案惊奇》卷十五。 **[2]** 而“不到黄河心不死”本句出自清代小说《荡寇志》第八十二卷。

<https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E4%B8%8D%E5%88%B0%E9%BB%84%E6%B2%B3%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%BB/1261714>

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: Quote:- 意思是不到无路可走的地步是不肯死心的。OK, but OP's question is "Why is 黄河 used in the saying 不到黄河心不死?"  
> **username_4**: @WayneCheah I've no answer to it but to provide more clues for research.  

---

