<p>There are several cases here.</p>
<p>Exemplar 1, 2, 4 are colloquial and informal. In this case measure words are optional after 这.</p>
<p>In exemplar 3, 第X YY is a common pattern to name institutions in mainland China: 第一人民医院, 第九中学, 第二汽车厂, etc. This is a remnant of the scheduled economy.</p>
<p>In exemplar 5, X大YY is also a common pattern: 四大名著, 六大奇书, 三大改造, etc. It means the top X most prominent items of a category.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-12T14:28:54.330Z
Agree, the 3rd and 5th one are not the case for optional measure word
Archeosudoerus
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-13T04:02:41.233Z
glad you pointed out the informality.  Huge amount of chinese language becomes optional unless needed for comprehension when super casual haha.
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-11T14:44:47.880Z
2023-10-11T14:44:47.880Z
user2249675
<blockquote>
<p>They all have a measure word omitted for unknown reasons.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Because they all pointed to a single specific event/item, which is equivalent to the English form of &quot;this + a singular noun&quot;).</p>
<p><strong>Singular Noun vs Plural Noun</strong>:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>我把这(件)事儿忘了。vs 我把这<strong>幾件</strong>事儿忘了。</p>
</li>
<li><p>您觉得这(首)音乐怎么样？ vs 您觉得这<strong>幾首</strong>音乐怎么样？</p>
</li>
<li><p>这(間)书房干净吗？vs 这<strong>些</strong>书房干净吗？</p>
</li>
</ol>
<p><strong>Other Cases</strong>:</p>
<ol start="3">
<li><p>陸軍第三()医院 - The Third Hospital of the Army. Here, <strong>&quot;第三(The Third)&quot; is part of the name</strong> that is meant to indicate its rank, and uniqueness, in the chain of hospitals operated by the Army. It does not quantify the hospitals as in &quot;陸軍<strong>第三座</strong>医院&quot; - &quot;The third/<strong>number three</strong> hospital that operated by the Army.&quot;</p>
</li>
<li><p>亿光四()大产品 - the measure word is often omitted when the adjective &quot;大&quot; proceeds the noun to emphasize its outstanding quality/quantity, such as &quot;江南四(個)<strong>大</strong>美女&quot;, &quot;十(項/個)<strong>大</strong>建設, so does &quot;亿光四(項/個)<strong>大</strong>产品. (Similarily, &quot;亞洲四(個/條)<strong>小</strong>龍.)</p>
</li>
</ol>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-11T23:01:43.803Z
2023-10-11T23:01:43.803Z
r13
<p>Measure words are optional in Chinese for the most part.</p>
<p>我們把這(尾)魚清蒸來吃</p>
<p>這(個)人心懷不軌</p>
<p>小陳住在這(座)大廈3樓</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-13T04:04:21.293Z
I would disagree.  There are many times measure words may be needed for clarity, or it is rude and too casual to leave out measure word, in the end measure words are usually the proper form.  If you just said sometimes instead of most of the time I would agree with you.
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-14T04:58:04.947Z
A few examples would be helpful.
fat penguin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-14T05:10:45.217Z
not sure what you want an example of, so here is one of each:  十二名學生 --名  is a formal and polite measure word, 個would be more casual and nuetral, no measure word would be very casual. Imagine giving a formal speech with super casual wording, mayne not so good, dropping measure words is usually like that. (◐‿◑)
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-14T05:19:34.693Z
an example of when it is needed for meaning-- 一沓信紙 is a pile of papers, 一張信紙 is a sheet of paper, 一款信紙 is a type of paper.  All very different concepts.  If context is clear you may be able to leave the measure word off, but if it isn't clear you need it for comprehension.  And regardless its casual to drop so back to point one of matching formality as needed.  Hope it makes sense o(∩_∩)o
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-16T02:22:38.127Z
Um, sure. What I was saying was measure words are not needed most of the time, not all the time. Speaking of formal speech, measure words are very rare in classic Chinese. For example, 四時五行七律八掛. How about a famous Confucius saying 三人行必有我師?
fat penguin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-16T03:51:32.910Z
And I disagree, most of the time measure words are needed, and it is impolite or awkward to leave them out.  classical chinese is a completely different language from modern mandarin and I think its an irrelevent comparison.  I agree, many chinese sentence could be understood without measure words, but that is not the same as them not being unneeded.  Using measure words is the norm in average conversation and what you mostly see, dropping them is the exception.
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-17T02:43:01.777Z
On the contrary. modern Chinese is just a continuation of classic Chinese. There is no clear break between the two. OTOH, you can find a lot of trasitional forms between "pure" modern Chinese and "pure" classic Chinese, even when spoken. In fact, the examples I provided above are from daily conversations.
fat penguin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-17T12:07:21.177Z
they are different languages.  yes many quotes and sayings still exist from classical chinese, but if they were the same language no one would need to study classical chinese when they already know modern chinese.  the grammar and structure is very different.
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-18T04:38:22.497Z
You are kidding, right? You are basically saying somebody who knows a language doesn't need to study it? Why are there Chinese courses all throughout primary and secondary schools?
fat penguin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-18T14:01:09.767Z
To quote you, you are kidding right?  If you think modern chinese lessons are the same exact ones as classical chinese, they aren't.  I cannot walk up to someone and say/write  子為誰  and have them understand if they do not specifically know classical chinese.
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-19T04:17:40.327Z
You were saying that one need not to study a language when one already knew it. I pointed out your mistake. You are also conflating knowing classic Chinese and knowing specific sections of a classic book.
fat penguin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-19T05:26:51.397Z
As a counter example, anybody who knows Chinese will know what 故人西辭黃鶴樓 means
fat penguin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-19T17:57:30.270Z
I agree that anyone literate in chinese will know this, perfect example of how much classical chinese has survived to modern chinese.  On the flip side in that same example, the phrase 故人 would be very hard to decipher for someone who only knew daily life modern chinese, and was not literate.  This is the point I was trying to make.  Much of classical chinese is still in use, so its not right to say its gone.  However it still has differences from modern chinese in structure and you can tell the different source (◐‿◑)
zagrycha
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-12T07:47:17.910Z
2023-10-12T07:47:17.910Z
fat penguin
<p>Here are some examples which I have found in genuine Chinese textbooks and material.
They all have a measure word omitted for unknown reasons.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>我把这()事儿忘了。</p>
</li>
<li><p>您觉得这()音乐怎么样？</p>
</li>
<li><p>第三()医院</p>
</li>
<li><p>这()书房干净吗？</p>
</li>
<li><p>亿光四()大产品</p>
</li>
</ol>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-10-12T09:30:54.490Z
Seems like you've asked something similar before: [Optional measure words](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/50527/optional-measure-words).
Becky 李蓓
<measure-word>
Omission of Measure words in Mandarin
# Omission of Measure words in Mandarin

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-10-11)

Here are some examples which I have found in genuine Chinese textbooks and material.
They all have a measure word omitted for unknown reasons.

1. 我把这()事儿忘了。
2. 您觉得这()音乐怎么样？
3. 第三()医院
4. 这()书房干净吗？
5. 亿光四()大产品

**Tags:** measure-word
> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Seems like you've asked something similar before: [Optional measure words](https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/50527/optional-measure-words).  

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2023-10-11. Score: 4 | Accepted answer

There are several cases here.

Exemplar 1, 2, 4 are colloquial and informal. In this case measure words are optional after 这.

In exemplar 3, 第X YY is a common pattern to name institutions in mainland China: 第一人民医院, 第九中学, 第二汽车厂, etc. This is a remnant of the scheduled economy.

In exemplar 5, X大YY is also a common pattern: 四大名著, 六大奇书, 三大改造, etc. It means the top X most prominent items of a category.

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: Agree, the 3rd and 5th one are not the case for optional measure word  
> **username_4**: glad you pointed out the informality.  Huge amount of chinese language becomes optional unless needed for comprehension when super casual haha.  

---

### Answer by username_5 on 2023-10-11. Score: 1

> They all have a measure word omitted for unknown reasons.

Because they all pointed to a single specific event/item, which is equivalent to the English form of "this + a singular noun").

**Singular Noun vs Plural Noun**:

1. 我把这(件)事儿忘了。vs 我把这**幾件**事儿忘了。
2. 您觉得这(首)音乐怎么样？ vs 您觉得这**幾首**音乐怎么样？
3. 这(間)书房干净吗？vs 这**些**书房干净吗？

**Other Cases**:

3. 陸軍第三()医院 - The Third Hospital of the Army. Here, **"第三(The Third)" is part of the name** that is meant to indicate its rank, and uniqueness, in the chain of hospitals operated by the Army. It does not quantify the hospitals as in "陸軍**第三座**医院" - "The third/**number three** hospital that operated by the Army."
4. 亿光四()大产品 - the measure word is often omitted when the adjective "大" proceeds the noun to emphasize its outstanding quality/quantity, such as "江南四(個)**大**美女", "十(項/個)**大**建設, so does "亿光四(項/個)**大**产品. (Similarily, "亞洲四(個/條)**小**龍.)


---

### Answer by username_6 on 2023-10-12. Score: 0

Measure words are optional in Chinese for the most part.

我們把這(尾)魚清蒸來吃

這(個)人心懷不軌

小陳住在這(座)大廈3樓

> **Comments:**
> **username_4**: I would disagree.  There are many times measure words may be needed for clarity, or it is rude and too casual to leave out measure word, in the end measure words are usually the proper form.  If you just said sometimes instead of most of the time I would agree with you.  
> **username_6**: A few examples would be helpful.  
> **username_4**: not sure what you want an example of, so here is one of each:  十二名學生 --名  is a formal and polite measure word, 個would be more casual and nuetral, no measure word would be very casual. Imagine giving a formal speech with super casual wording, mayne not so good, dropping measure words is usually like that. (◐‿◑)  
> **username_4**: an example of when it is needed for meaning-- 一沓信紙 is a pile of papers, 一張信紙 is a sheet of paper, 一款信紙 is a type of paper.  All very different concepts.  If context is clear you may be able to leave the measure word off, but if it isn't clear you need it for comprehension.  And regardless its casual to drop so back to point one of matching formality as needed.  Hope it makes sense o(∩_∩)o  
> **username_6**: Um, sure. What I was saying was measure words are not needed most of the time, not all the time. Speaking of formal speech, measure words are very rare in classic Chinese. For example, 四時五行七律八掛. How about a famous Confucius saying 三人行必有我師?  
> **username_4**: And I disagree, most of the time measure words are needed, and it is impolite or awkward to leave them out.  classical chinese is a completely different language from modern mandarin and I think its an irrelevent comparison.  I agree, many chinese sentence could be understood without measure words, but that is not the same as them not being unneeded.  Using measure words is the norm in average conversation and what you mostly see, dropping them is the exception.  
> **username_6**: On the contrary. modern Chinese is just a continuation of classic Chinese. There is no clear break between the two. OTOH, you can find a lot of trasitional forms between "pure" modern Chinese and "pure" classic Chinese, even when spoken. In fact, the examples I provided above are from daily conversations.  
> **username_4**: they are different languages.  yes many quotes and sayings still exist from classical chinese, but if they were the same language no one would need to study classical chinese when they already know modern chinese.  the grammar and structure is very different.  
> **username_6**: You are kidding, right? You are basically saying somebody who knows a language doesn't need to study it? Why are there Chinese courses all throughout primary and secondary schools?  
> **username_4**: To quote you, you are kidding right?  If you think modern chinese lessons are the same exact ones as classical chinese, they aren't.  I cannot walk up to someone and say/write  子為誰  and have them understand if they do not specifically know classical chinese.  
> **username_6**: You were saying that one need not to study a language when one already knew it. I pointed out your mistake. You are also conflating knowing classic Chinese and knowing specific sections of a classic book.  
> **username_6**: As a counter example, anybody who knows Chinese will know what 故人西辭黃鶴樓 means  
> **username_4**: I agree that anyone literate in chinese will know this, perfect example of how much classical chinese has survived to modern chinese.  On the flip side in that same example, the phrase 故人 would be very hard to decipher for someone who only knew daily life modern chinese, and was not literate.  This is the point I was trying to make.  Much of classical chinese is still in use, so its not right to say its gone.  However it still has differences from modern chinese in structure and you can tell the different source (◐‿◑)  

---

