[00:01] <mkanat> lifeless: A modification to "bzr patch" would probably be the place, yeah?
[00:02] <lifeless> mkanat: yes, that might make sense. or import-patch, a new command.
[00:03] <mkanat> Yeah. Although I'd like to see "patch" do other nice things, too (like understand renames), so it might just make sense to improve it.
[00:20] <bob2> meoblast001: struct module isn't that bad
[00:36] <lifeless> mornink poolie
[00:36] <poolie> hello there
[00:37] <lifeless> mkanat: I think it would surprise people to have 'patch' do a commit ;). I think there are two use cases, but probably we want common code paths internally.
[00:37] <mkanat> lifeless: Well, yeah, doing a commit would be surprising for sure. :-)
[00:37] <lifeless> mkanat: but thats what I want it to do; commit on a temp branch and merge back
[00:37] <mkanat> Ah, okay.
[00:38] <lifeless> mkanat: and you said you'd like that as well :>
[00:38] <meoblast001> bob2: yeah, but how can i guarantee that it's 4 bytes bigendian?
[00:38] <mkanat> lifeless: Yeah, for sure. bzr diffs include date info, so you could even do it automatically.
[00:38] <lifeless> meoblast001: by the format you give it
[00:39] <mkanat> lifeless: If no revno was specified.
[00:39] <meoblast001> ah, ok
[00:39] <lifeless> pydoc struct
[00:45] <lifeless> hmm, functions there have bad docs; you'll want the python online docs.
[00:46] <lifeless> mbarnett: are you around
[00:46] <jml> the pypy people are interested in getting benchmarks from various python projects
[00:47] <lifeless> awesome
[00:47] <jml> does bzr have some benchmark scripts to share?
[00:47] <lifeless> usertest
[00:47] <lifeless> its kindof a plugin
[00:47] <poolie> hello jml
[00:47] <lifeless> it runs bzr against real-worldish scenarios
[00:48] <lifeless> and the 'bzr' it runs can be differnet versions, or run in customised ways
[00:48] <lifeless> so it should be easy to tweak it to say 'pypy bzr' rather than 'bzr'
[00:48] <lifeless> poolie: I've just submitted a 'use subunit' patch to PQM, that spiv reviewed over the weekend.
[00:49] <poolie> ok...
[00:49] <lifeless> poolie: should be no fallout, but if there is its my fault, sic me onto it.
[00:49] <poolie> actually when you mean 'to pqm'
[00:49] <poolie> do you mean changing pqm, or changing bzrlib?
[00:49] <lifeless> pqm.bazaar-vcs.org
[00:50] <lifeless> changing bzrlibs Makefile
[00:50] <poolie> :/
[00:51] <poolie> you know sometimes people say "but i'll give people a chance to object"
[00:51] <lifeless> poolie: I was of the understanding that it was simply tuits missing to do this; so I found somes.
[00:51] <lifeless> poolie: it was up in the queue for over a day; and its easy to back out
[00:51] <lifeless> poolie: I didn't think it was contentious
[00:53] <poolie> i think it's worth a try
[00:53] <poolie> i'm just saying saturday night to monday morning is not really likely to have people see it
[00:53] <poolie> so this makes subunit a hard dependency to run bzr check
[00:54] <poolie> that might be worth documenting
[00:54] <lifeless> 'make check' specifically
[00:54] <poolie> s//make check
[00:54] <lifeless> not selftest, which is what we generally advise.  Yes, good point, I'll add some doc
[00:55] <poolie> i'm pretty sure that pqm's mail stuff is not 8-bit clean therefore it the stream parser will crash
[00:55] <poolie> but we'll see
[00:55] <poolie> istr it reads it as lines and reinserts \ns
[00:55] <poolie> but it may work
[00:56] <lifeless> poolie: I don't think that the weekend should really be specially treated; we only have 24 hours of non-core-people-working coverage regardless; and we more core committers than staff paid to work on bzr [at this point in time]
[00:56] <lifeless> poolie: once it lands I'll send a broken patch through to see how it handles it
[00:57] <poolie> i think there's pretty clearly more activity from both staff and nonstaff developers during the week
[00:59] <poolie> anyhow
[00:59] <poolie> if that works it'll be good
[00:59] <poolie> s/if/when :)
[01:00] <lifeless> we don't have an official quiet-period where things approved get a chance to be looked over by other people at the moment; I don't understand why patches put in in the weekend should get one, and ones in the week not get one.
[01:00] <lifeless> I'm not trying to be difficult, I really don't see the connection
[01:01] <lifeless> we do have a 'use judgment' angle; the flipside to that is that people will
[01:02] <exarkun> I'm noticing some issues with running 'bzr svn-import' against the same repository multiple times concurrently
[01:02] <exarkun> I'm going to file a ticket or two about it I guess
[01:04] <lifeless> poolie: it failed to land anyhow; subunit isn't in the chroot (which is odd because we had it in the chroot a few months back; possibly before we upgraded the chroot though)
[01:04] <poolie> so
[01:04] <poolie> people tend to have comments on changes to infrastructure
[01:04] <poolie> it's just polite to give them a chance to express those opinions
[01:05] <poolie> considering the review concluded at midnight on sunday(!) looks a bit like routing around it
[01:05] <poolie> i think the actual change is fine
[01:06] <lifeless> If I had submitted it at 1am I could understand that perspective; but I submitted it at 11:30am or so
[01:06] <poolie> i expect it will break but it should be fixable, and it's worth fixing
[01:06] <lifeless> very much not avoiding things; everything to do with spiv's sleep schedule :)
[01:07] <lifeless> something about this leaves me unsettled. I need to mull on it I think.
[01:21] <mkanat> mwhudson: Any new crashes?
[01:25] <twb> I'm rolling binary packages from a bzr repository.  I want a way to get a short, monotonically increasing string to describe the repository state.  Bonus points if it is in <last tag name>+<revisions since last tag> format rather than just <number of revisions>.
[01:25] <twb> The git equivalent is "git describe --tags" and the hg equivalent is hg parents --template '{latesttag}+{latesttagdistance}\n'
[01:25] <lifeless> twb: bzr revno
[01:26] <lifeless> you'll want to set the 'is a mainline' flag to stop people pushing altered trunks though
[01:26] <lifeless> append_revisions_only=True
[01:30] <mwhudson> mkanat: no
[01:31] <mkanat> mwhudson: Okay.
[01:34] <twb> v=$(bzr tags | tail -1); v=${v%% *}+$(($(bzr revno) - ${v##* }))
[01:36] <fullermd> That sounds...   unuseful.
[01:36] <fullermd> For one things, tags sorts by the tag name, and for another, they may not be on integral revnos.
[01:37] <twb> You have fractional revnos?
[01:38] <fullermd> Not exactly, but they read that way.
[01:38] <twb> Blergh
[01:38] <twb> These packages aren't important, so I'll use that shitty code until it breaks
[01:40] <twb> Is it just me, or is bzr export REALLY slow on a --lightweight checkout?
[01:40] <fullermd> If the branch is very far away, that wouldn't be surprising.
[01:41] <twb> It's lp:dosage, fwiw
[01:42] <fullermd> Across the internet easily qualifies as "very far away"   :)
[01:44] <twb> I notice that bzr export eats the existing file instead of writing to a temp file and then doing a final move.
[01:44] <twb> i.e. while bzr export is running, or if it is interrupted, the old tarball is bogus
[01:45] <fullermd> Well, it's probably not really designed for its destination to exist already.
[02:25] <meoblast001> lifeless: in the doc for bzrlib.branch.ChangeBranchTipParams, i can't find anything about commit author
[02:30] <lifeless> meoblast001: branch/repository.get_revision(new_revid).authors
[02:30] <meoblast001> ah, ok
[02:30] <meoblast001> uh oh, bazaar choked on my plugin
[02:32] <meoblast001> lifeless: is the bzrlib.branch.ChangeBranchTipParams my branch/repository?
[02:32] <meoblast001> or is that a member of it
[02:32] <meoblast001> or do i just use "branch"
[02:33] <lifeless> meoblast001: it has a branch attribute
[02:33] <lifeless> see the pydoc for i
[02:33] <lifeless> it
[02:33] <meoblast001> ah, ok, i see now
[02:33] <meoblast001> there seems to be a lot of "branch" in Bazaar :P
[02:34] <meoblast001> lifeless: is there a place i could go to see all the members of this branch, that way i can stop nagging you :P
[02:36] <lifeless> meoblast001: pydoc + the source
[02:36] <lifeless> there are apidocs mwhudson publishes somewhere
[02:36] <meoblast001> i tried bzrlib.branch.ChangeBranchTipParams.branch, but got no Python documentation found for 'bzrlib.branch.ChangeBranchTipParams.branch'
[02:37] <meoblast001> but then again, i shouldn't be guessing, as this is my first day ever writing Python code
[02:37] <meoblast001> and i don't even know where the source to those .py files lie
[02:48] <lifeless> meoblast001: just do pydoc bzrlib.branch.ChangeBranchTipParams
[02:48] <lifeless> the branch attribute is a 'bzrlib.branch.Branch'
[02:48] <meoblast001> lifeless: i did that
[02:49] <lifeless> so pydoc bzrlib.branch.Branch
[02:49] <meoblast001> i'm so lost of what derives from what, what already exists
[02:49] <meoblast001> ok, thanks
[02:50] <meoblast001> lifeless: i can't find repository or get_revision
[02:52] <meoblast001> oh yay, i managed to crash pydoc
[03:31] <meoblast001> lifeless: is there an online documentation for this?
[03:31] <meoblast001> it would probably be easier for me
[03:32] <lifeless> yes, mwhudson has apidocs published
[03:32] <lifeless> mwhudson: where are they?
[03:32] <mwhudson> lifeless: python.net/~mwh/bzrlibapi
[03:32] <mwhudson> might be a bit out of date now actually
[03:32] <lifeless> meoblast001: ^
[03:33] <meoblast001> ok, thanks
[03:33] <meoblast001> i hope i can do this >.<
[03:33] <lifeless> you could mail the list and ask for help
[03:33] <lifeless> folk do that quite regularly.
[03:33] <meoblast001> i think my Python knowledge is just horrible
[03:34] <meoblast001> i can't understand if i'm supposed to be using branch.Branch, or branch.repository, or result.branch
[03:35] <meoblast001> probably would be easier for me to write a Git plugin but i don't use Git
[03:35] <lifeless> meoblast001: the params object you're given has a branch attribute
[03:36] <lifeless> that is a branch object
[03:36] <meoblast001> ok
[03:36] <meoblast001> that's what i was wondering
[03:36] <lifeless> meoblast001: it is an instance of bzrlib.branch.Branch
[03:36] <meoblast001> there is no get_revision() function in Branch though, according to the docs
[03:36] <lifeless> meoblast001: thats right. you want branch.repository.get_revision()
[03:37] <lifeless> where branch is the branch object you're starting from
[03:37] <meoblast001> hm, it's not listing a member named repository in the docs
[03:37] <meoblast001> http://python.net/~mwh/bzrlibapi/bzrlib.branch.Branch.repository.html < also does not exist
[03:38] <lifeless> meoblast001: so your function is called with an object.  So 'params.branch.repository' is an instance of bzrlib.repository.Repository
[03:39] <lifeless> meoblast001: you can examine this interactively.
[03:39] <meoblast001> what does get_revision(new_revid) return?
[03:39] <lifeless> define your hook function as
[03:39] <lifeless> def myhook(params):
[03:39] <lifeless>     import pdb;pdb.set_trace()
[03:40] <lifeless> now do a pull or something in a test branch
[03:40] <lifeless> you'll drop into pdb
[03:40] <lifeless> you can use 'pp params' to pretty print params
[03:40] <lifeless> dir(params) to see the attributes of params
[03:40] <meoblast001> yay
[03:40] <meoblast001> found the revision object
[03:40] <lifeless> 'vars(params)' to see its variables and their values
[03:41] <meoblast001> hm, can't find a list of its members though
[03:41] <meoblast001> only its member functions
[03:41] <lifeless> the revision object docs are a bit weak
[03:41] <lifeless> however
[03:41] <lifeless> vars(revisionobject)
[03:41] <lifeless> should print something sensible
[03:42] <meoblast001> silly me, // does not comment Python code >.<
[03:42]  * meoblast001 needs to use #
[03:43] <lifeless> using pdb will probably help you explore the system a lot
[03:43] <lifeless> even if it has a little learning curve
[03:43] <meoblast001> yeah, i'm getting no arguments passed to my function
[03:43] <meoblast001> Post_Change_Branch_Tip() takes exactly 1 argument (0 given)
[03:43] <meoblast001> i set it with branch.Branch.hooks.install_named_hook ('post_change_branch_tip', Post_Change_Branch_Tip, 'Announce Commit')
[03:44] <lifeless> show me the definition of Post_Change_Branch_Tip
[03:44] <meoblast001> http://pastebin.com/d79e4cd50
[03:45] <lifeless> line 46 is your problem
[03:45] <lifeless> you are calling your hook; don't do that.
[03:45] <lifeless> once its installed bzr will call it at the right time.
[03:46] <meoblast001> oh >.<
[03:46] <meoblast001> how did i leave that there
[03:46] <meoblast001> i was doing some independent tests without Bazaar for a bit there, must have forgotten to remove that line
[03:46] <lifeless> if you put '  import pdb; pdb.set_trace()' at line 25, then when bzr calls it, you will be put into a debugger.
[03:46] <meoblast001> just to check that my backend could properly process the results
[03:47] <meoblast001> it doesn't actually list the vars
[03:47] <meoblast001> isn't that what vars() is supposed to do?
[03:48] <lifeless> no
[03:48] <lifeless> its a function
[03:48] <lifeless> so you need to print its output
[03:48] <lifeless> if you are in a read-evaluate-print-loop, results are printed automatically
[03:48] <meoblast001> ah, ok
[03:48] <lifeless> which is what pdb would put you in
[03:50] <meoblast001> print vars (result.branch.repository.get_revision (new_revno))
[03:50] <meoblast001> not printing
[03:50] <meoblast001> does vars return a string?
[03:50]  * meoblast001 googles
[03:53] <meoblast001> lifeless: this pdb, is it extremely useful?
[03:54] <lifeless> yes
[03:54] <lifeless> meoblast001: just put this in as your hook function
[03:54] <lifeless> def myhook(params):
[03:54] <lifeless>     import pdb;pdb.set_trace()
[03:55] <lifeless> and then install it as normal - bzrlib.branch.Branch.hooks.install_named_hook('....
[03:56] <meoblast001> still nothing
[03:56] <meoblast001> the only real issue i'm having is here
[03:56] <meoblast001> print vars (result.branch.repository.get_revision (new_revno))
[03:56] <meoblast001> nothing is being printed
[04:00] <meoblast001> i'm going to do a full test on this, see if it all runs well
[04:04] <lifeless> meoblast001: well, by nothing, what do you mean?
[04:04] <lifeless> if you do a pull or ap ush with the little hook I gave you, bzr should put you into a interactive prompt
[04:04] <lifeless> note that you need to do that locally, not on your server
[04:04] <lifeless> because on the server it can't show you the prompt :)
[04:04] <meoblast001> ok
[04:04] <meoblast001> well i'm going to do this one last test, then i'll try that if it does not work
[04:05] <meoblast001> lifeless: aparently new_revid doesn't exist
[04:06] <meoblast001> i'm assuming i need result.new_revid?
[04:06] <lifeless> yes
[04:07] <meoblast001> lifeless: all works except for one thing
[04:08] <meoblast001> i need a way to obtain the branch name
[04:08] <meoblast001> oh, and an integer of the latest revision number
[04:08] <meoblast001> i have a var dump though
[04:13] <lifeless> meoblast001: branch.nick may be what you want; and new_revno from the params object
[04:13] <meoblast001> lifeless: i guess there's always result.branch._last_revision_info_cache[0]?
[04:13] <meoblast001> ah, silly me
[04:13] <lifeless> no, _ prefixes mean 'private' by convention in bzr
[04:13] <meoblast001> new_revno is there
[04:13] <meoblast001> ah, ok
[04:14] <meoblast001> ok, let's fire up the server and see how well this works
[04:15] <meoblast001> oops, forgot to copy over the new version
[04:16] <meoblast001> lifeless: what's bother me is that it's not giving me any information on where the error is
[04:16] <meoblast001> i thought that was the advantage to using an interpreted language
[04:16] <meoblast001> bzr: ERROR: exceptions.TypeError: coercing to Unicode: need string or buffer, int found
[04:16] <meoblast001> that's all i get
[04:16] <lifeless> meoblast001: I have suggested that you test locally
[04:17] <meoblast001> yes, i'm doing that
[04:17] <lifeless> meoblast001: if you are testing on your server, you'll need to check the .bzr.log on the server
[04:17] <meoblast001> this seems to be getting called at every bzr commit and bzr uncommit
[04:17] <meoblast001> so i am getting output
[04:17] <lifeless> meoblast001: if you're testing locally, set BZR_PDB=1
[04:17] <lifeless> e.g.
[04:17] <lifeless> BZR_PDB=1 bzr uncommit
[04:17] <meoblast001> as a shell variable?
[04:18] <lifeless> yes
[04:18] <meoblast001> get the exact same output
[04:18] <meoblast001> is result.new_revno an integer?
[04:18] <lifeless> it should put you into pdb
[04:18] <meoblast001> because i treat it as one
[04:19] <meoblast001> it didn't
[04:19] <lifeless> why did you say 'forgot to copy over the new version' and 'time to fire up the server', if you are testing locally.
[04:20] <meoblast001> ah, that's because this is a networking plugin
[04:20] <meoblast001> the server is a plugin for my IRC bot
[04:20] <meoblast001> it runs in a thread, waiting for signals from version control systems giving it details about the commits made
[04:20] <lifeless> ok
[04:20] <lifeless> and the branch you are testing on is on your local disk
[04:21] <lifeless> and not a bound branch
[04:21] <lifeless> and you're testing by doing a commit in it ?
[04:21] <meoblast001> it's just a random branch i created with bzr init
[04:21] <meoblast001> and it's on my local system
[04:21] <lifeless> ok
[04:21] <meoblast001> i'm testing by doing a commit
[04:21] <lifeless> what bzr version?
[04:22] <lifeless> check ~/.bzr.log, it should have the full backtrace there regardless
[04:22] <meoblast001> Bazaar (bzr) 2.0.2
[04:23] <meoblast001> hm, i wonder if i typed something wrong, it's complaining about no get_revision function
[04:23] <meoblast001> bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AttributeError: 'BzrBranch7' object has no attribute 'get_revision'
[04:23] <meoblast001> and i'm correct ;) i did type something wrong
[04:25] <meoblast001> dang, it just keeps finding problems
[04:25] <meoblast001> bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AttributeError: 'BzrBranch7' object has no attribute 'respository'
[04:25] <lifeless> rep not resp
[04:25] <meoblast001> oh >.<
[04:26] <meoblast001> i've been all out of it today
[04:29] <meoblast001> lifeless: yay, it works now :)
 randproj: Revision Committed by Braden Walters<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Initial Commit
[04:29] <lifeless> great
[04:29] <meoblast001> now i just need to get the commit number off of it
[04:29] <meoblast001> lifeless: i'd have to bot come in here to show you guys, but i'd probably get kick/banned ;)
[04:32] <lifeless> I think for a commit or two it would be fine
[04:32] <lifeless> is vcannounce generic?
[04:32] <lifeless> like cia?
[04:32] <lifeless> if so you might want to publish your plugin for others to use
[04:34] <meoblast001> lifeless: my bot is a plugin-based bot
[04:34] <meoblast001> written in C
[04:34] <meoblast001> Nitrobot is the name of the bot, VCAnnounce is the name of the plugin i just wrote
[04:35] <meoblast001> and i will be publishing my plugin in the nitrobot-plugins package
[04:35] <meoblast001> i'll connect him now for one test
[04:36] <nitrobot> randproj: Revision 2 Committed by Braden Walters<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Added file "file"
[04:36] <meoblast001> lifeless: see :)
[04:36] <meoblast001> !quit thepassword
[04:36] <lifeless> grats
[04:37] <meoblast001> thanks
[04:37] <meoblast001> and also thanks for the great amount of help you provided on the Python side
[04:37] <lifeless> de nada
[04:38] <meoblast001> lifeless: once i'm done cleaning up the code (will probably do that tomorrow or later tonight), should i publish a link to where the plugin can be found somewhere?
[04:38] <meoblast001> as you were saying i might want to publish it
[04:38] <lifeless> yes, the bzr plugins wiki page :)
[04:38] <meoblast001> ok, the Bazaar plugin is no good though without the bot and the bot plugin, so i'm assuming a link would be most appropriate?
[04:42] <spiv> lifeless: yes, Command.add_cleanup is in 2.1
[04:42] <meoblast001> hopefully that script will be as useful to others as it will be to me
[04:42] <meoblast001> i hated having 2 bots sitting in my channel at the same time
[04:45] <lifeless> spiv: doh
[04:45] <lifeless> meoblast001: well you'll want a link to the bzr plugin, and a link to your bot
[04:46] <meoblast001> ok, i'll do that tomorrow :)
[04:46] <meoblast001> actually, i only have to do endianness conversions right now really, so i  could finish that up tonight
[04:54] <mwhudson> more up to date api docs at http://people.canonical.com/~mwh/bzrlibapi/ now btw
[04:55] <lifeless> mwhudson: can't use the old api?
[04:56] <mwhudson> lifeless: you mean old server?
[04:56] <lifeless> url
[04:57] <mwhudson> it's not very well maintained these days
[04:57] <lifeless> <- brain has melted
[04:57] <mwhudson> i'll set up a redirect
[04:57] <lifeless> mwhudson: can you delete them at least, so that people don't read only stuff
[04:58] <mwhudson> sure
[05:03] <spiv> lifeless: why doh?  Hmm, well I guess I ought to have listed some of that change in NEWS under API Changes (as well as Improvements, where it is mentioned)
[05:03] <lifeless> spiv: because that makes it harder to rethink the change to be better
[05:04] <spiv> lifeless: *nod*
[05:04] <spiv> lifeless: (I thought that might be what you meant, but wanted to be sure)
[05:04] <spiv> FWIW it landed on Jan 11.
[05:05] <spiv> So, relatively late in the cycle, but still 10 days before rc1.
[05:05] <spiv> And a full month before the final release.
[05:06] <spiv> Ideally that should have been ample time to notice any issues :/
[05:07] <meoblast001> now, time to do a test install on my server
[05:07] <meoblast001> where would i put a plugin if i want it to apply for every user?
[05:09] <lifeless> spiv: I don't think you did anything wrong.
[05:09] <mwhudson> lifeless: redirect in place
[05:10] <lifeless> spiv: its roughly the halting problem to always know in advance.
[05:10] <spiv> lifeless: sure
[05:10] <spiv> lifeless: I'm just wondering aloud if there's a deficiency in our process that we easily improve
[05:11] <spiv> lifeless: nothing is springing to my mind, but then, my mind isn't at work today either :)
[05:11] <lifeless> spiv: poolie and I spent some time today talking about a similar problem.
[05:11] <poolie> hullo
[05:11] <lifeless> I don't think tht the obvious options [more mandatory review time and similar] would help.
[05:11] <lifeless> sorry, woud be a net improvement
[05:11] <spiv> Ah well, I'm happy to have provided another data point then, as well as another feature ;)
[05:11] <spiv> *nod*
[05:12] <poolie> what is the 'it' here?
[05:12] <lifeless> poolie: Command.run not being safe to call anymore.
[05:12] <spiv> The best I can think of is "get more testing from plugin authors and plugin users", but even that's a bit vague.
[05:12] <spiv> (and easier said than done)
[05:12] <lifeless> poolie: which didn't stand out during review; it was obvious to the right eyeballs, but how do you get them on it in time?
[05:13] <spiv> I do think I made a mistake in not writing an API Changes entry for that change.
[05:13] <spiv> I'm not sure that would have brought it to the attention of the right eyeballs, but it might have.
[05:13] <lifeless> I think that if you had thought it was an API change you might have noticed it as being a problem, in fact
[05:14] <spiv> Right, there's also a degree of chicken-and-egg in that statement :)
[05:14] <meoblast001> is there a location for global Bazaar plugins?
[05:14] <spiv> meoblast001: the system-wide bzrlib/plugins dir, IIRC
[05:14] <spiv> meoblast001: (check the location of bzrlib by running 'bzr version')
[05:14] <meoblast001> ok, thanks
[05:23] <lifeless> spiv: perhaps one thing we could say is 'ask yourself, does this change the safety of calling what I changed, or does it stop calling something it once [promised] to call'
[05:23] <lifeless> spiv: as part of the regular 'think about it' part of review
[05:43] <lifeless> EOD; see you tomorrow.
[05:48] <thumper> night lifeless
[06:05] <poolie> spiv, lend me your thoughts on the retrospective
[06:06] <spiv> poolie: basically, +1
[06:08] <spiv> poolie: picking the focus features is the tricky bit
[06:09] <spiv> poolie: that's worked ok for us when we've had a really clear goal for a release, e.g. "2a must be robust and fast before we can declare 2.0"
[06:49] <poolie> spiv, was there anything else you particularly noticed as good or bad this cycle?
[06:50] <spiv> (sorry, was interrupted by baby)
[06:50] <spiv> The motivation for focus features seems harder when they are just "nice to have"
[06:53] <spiv> I think the cycle worked pretty well.  It still seems hard to get plugin authors to reliably notice problematic changes until after a release, though.
[06:53] <spiv> But I think even there we've probably done better than previously.
[07:09] <vila> hi all !
[07:13] <lifeless> spiv: I think the issue with plugins is that many plugin authors don't run trunk, and don't want to
[07:13]  * vila wonders why he's a channel operator....
[07:13] <lifeless> spiv: and the current api churn on trunk makes it even less attractive
[07:13] <spiv> *nod*
[07:13] <lifeless> vila: you have chanserv /nickserv setup to auto op you when it can
[07:13] <vila> lifeless: sure, but why *can* I ? :D
[07:13] <lifeless> spiv: I'd like us to totally reverse the deprecation policy to what we had before; that is a much nicer rid, and conducive to running trunk
[07:13] <lifeless> vila: because you're a core committer
[07:14] <lifeless> vila: please change your setup though, to not op you automatically; helps avoid channel trolls
[07:14] <spiv> lifeless: yeah, abentley at least seems to find the current policy worse
[07:14] <vila> lifeless: but you and spiv and poolie are too .... ha ok
[07:14] <lifeless> vila: yes, see<-
[07:15] <poolie> hello vila, welcome back
[07:15] <vila> hey poolie !
[07:15] <lifeless> spiv: I replied to the thread saying I too find it worse.
[07:15] <poolie> so
[07:15] <spiv> I definitely thinking we need to find a way to encourage plugin authors (and keen plugin users) to track bzr trunk.
[07:16] <poolie> i get discouraged from running plugin tests
[07:16] <poolie> there seem to be too many broken windows
[07:16] <poolie> i don't think the previous policy for apis was good enough
[07:16] <spiv> But I'm not a plugin author, so I'm happy to let those who are make suggestions about what will help.
[07:16] <poolie> there were some cases where people spent half an hour changing something and days working out how to deprecate it
[07:17] <poolie> this is not a good tradeoff
[07:17] <lifeless> poolie: I agree that that is a bad ratio; I've not experienced it myself
[07:17] <poolie> i think this was a patch of vila i had in mind
[07:17] <poolie> yes
[07:18] <spiv> I think in general a plugin cannot rely on something like 'require_api(x.y.z.b3)' until x.y.z.b3 has been released, but this means that trunk is almost always a version that a plugin can't safely rely on.
[07:19] <spiv> But at the same time, we want plugins to be tested with trunk.
[07:19] <lifeless> spiv: that aspect of the current system doesn't bother me so much
[07:19] <lifeless> spiv: its the 'whaaay, lets not deprecate anymore' that bothers me
[07:19] <vila> poolie: the one about SubUnitFeature ?
[07:19] <poolie> i forget
[07:20] <vila> poolie: I didn't spend *days*, merely hours and mainly because the parameter order tricked both of us and led to an infinite recursion IIRC
[07:20] <vila> but I miss the context so...
[07:21]  * vila triages mail
[07:21] <poolie> so
[07:21] <poolie> i think if it's easy to keep something supported we should
[07:21] <poolie> i don't think we should take for granted that doing any large amount of work in bzr is worthwhile
[07:24] <lifeless> poolie: we didn't take that for granted before
[07:24] <lifeless> poolie: I landed lots of patches of the kind 'too hard to deprecate, not doing so'
[07:24] <poolie> ok
[07:25] <lifeless> poolie: we don't seem to be trying at all at the moment
[07:25] <lifeless> and I have two problems with this, as a user/advocate
[07:25] <lifeless> firstly stable release to stable releae should do deprecations where we can
[07:25] <lifeless> we've made these release jumps 6 months of rolled up work
[07:25] <lifeless> so they are much bigger than they were before (in potential delta)
[07:26] <lifeless> that, to me makes the benefit of a deprecation much greater.
[07:26] <lifeless> and the risk of confusion to someone upgrading a plugin larger
[07:27] <lifeless> secondly, deprecations add value to users - they have saved me lots of log grepping in the past, when someone else changed something.
[07:28] <lifeless> and I think this is an experience other authors have had
[07:28] <poolie> i can see how that helps authors but not users
[07:29] <lifeless> when a plugin stops working with no visible indication, the user has to debug this.
[07:29] <lifeless> a deprecation does two things; it keeps the plugin working, and if it fails at doing that, then it at least tells them
[07:37] <poolie> hm
[07:37] <poolie> but it's probably not going to stop with no visible indication
[07:38] <lifeless> compare a Warning + AttributeError vs just an AttributeError
[07:38] <lifeless> anyhow, I said this on the list
[07:38] <lifeless> where everyone can participate  :)
[07:41] <poolie> i'd be ok to reiterate that people should deprecate unless it is too hard
[07:41] <poolie> it seems like there might be some better option though
[07:41] <poolie> or something complementary
[07:45] <Speedy2> www.search2.net
[07:52] <poolie> spam
[07:58] <igc> hi all
[08:04] <lifeless> poolie: I'm disabling autoops
[08:13] <lifeless> igc: can you do '/msg NickServ SET NOOP ON'
[08:13] <lifeless> igc: and then leave and rejoin #bzr? testing fallout from the expanded access lists we did last week
[08:14] <igc> lifeless: done
[08:14] <lifeless> ok great
[08:14] <lifeless> if you need to become operator do this:
[08:14] <lifeless>  /msg chanserv op #bzr
[08:14] <lifeless> an to stop being an operator
[08:14] <lifeless>  /deop igc
[08:17] <lifeless> igc: actually, I think I've found the root cause, youcan undo that if yu want
[08:18] <lifeless> thee instructions to become/drop root still spply
[09:02] <radoe> Are 2 minutes to create a new local branch from an existing branch of bzr-2.1 sources normal?
[09:03] <poolie> radoe, do you have a shared repository locally?
[09:05] <radoe> poolie: no, this test was without a shared repo, so I think it has to copy over the whole history, right?
[09:05] <poolie> yes
[09:05] <poolie> still seems a bit slow
[09:08] <radoe> poolie: yes, I had the same feeling about beeing a tad slow in this local branching case.
[09:11] <radoe> For more than a minute it stays at "Fetching revisions:Get stream source", having one CPU core running at 100%
[09:18] <poolie> radoe, could it be the repositories are in different formats or something?
[09:21] <radoe> poolie: both are "Standalone tree (format: 2a)". Further branching from the just-branched branch takes about the same time.
[09:33] <Coke> Hi! I have a 1.5 version on server and 2.0.4 on my client, it takes like 2 minutes to transfer 62k of data, it does max 1k/s and most of the time even less. This is on a LAN!!! Needless to say, this is getting frustrating, is there a quick fix to mend this problem?
[09:45] <poolie> Coke, so the obvious first step would be to upgrade the server to 2.1 or 2.0
[09:54] <Coke> actually, there's no bzr server
[09:54] <Coke> I use sftp
[09:54] <Coke> My bad.
[09:55] <poolie> ok
[09:55] <Coke> So there's just the 2.0.4 client
[09:55] <poolie> that's still kind of surprising
[09:55] <poolie> what does bzr info show in that branch?
[09:55] <Coke> location, checkout of branch and format pack-0.92
[10:00] <bialix> hi poolie
[10:04] <mathrick> Coke: and you're sure you can get normal sftp transfers at better speeds?
[10:16] <poolie> hi bialix
[10:17] <bialix> poolie: I've made 1.0.0rc2 release of bzr-explorer
[10:17] <poolie> bialix, i saw, that's great
[10:17] <poolie> thanks
[10:18] <bialix> that's minimum I can do for Ian
[10:19] <bialix> I don't know is anybody working on including bzr-explorer to Lucid?
[10:20] <jelmer> bialix: AndrewSB is I think
[10:21] <bialix> ok
[10:21] <bialix> hi jelmer
[10:21] <bialix> have a minute? you've asked about icon
[10:21] <jelmer> bialix: He's the packager of bzr-explorer for Debian and Ubuntu, I'm not sure if he's specifically working on 1.0.0.rc2 though
[10:22] <bialix> jelmer: that's ok
[10:28] <poolie> he'll probably do it if you poke him
[10:28] <poolie> i think ian will be away a bit this week
[10:30] <bialix> poolie: any specific plans for 2.2? does nested trees have a chance?
[10:30] <poolie> bialix, i was just talking to vila about that
[10:30] <poolie> i think we should pick a thing
[10:30] <poolie> Coke, did you work it out?
[10:30]  * bialix waves at vila
[10:31] <poolie> i was saying to vila maybe we should either all get onto merge/conflict, or he should leave it
[10:31] <poolie> it seems a bit slow and he's having trouble getting good reviews
[10:33] <poolie> vila, if you're piloting this week you're going to be busy
[10:34] <vila> http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/PatchPilot says jam is the patch pilot this week, I plan to be *next* week
[10:37]  * bialix nods
[10:38] <poolie> oops
[10:38] <poolie> sorry
[10:38] <poolie> must be sleepy
[10:41] <vila> no worries, but go get some sleep :D
[10:42]  * fullermd waves at vila.
[10:43]  * vila waves back to fullermd and bialix enthusiastically
[10:43] <bialix> hi fullermd
[10:44] <fullermd> ... some day, people in my own TZ will get their acts together and be around at the same time as I am...
[10:44] <bialix> :-)
[10:45] <vila> fullermd: why don't you just move where the sun shines during your work hours :) It really helps you know...
[10:45] <fullermd> Sun...   shines?!  But what about my sensitive skin?
[10:46] <poolie> sure shines here, 37C today
[10:46] <vila> Oh, no need for direct exposure, but the light....
[10:46]  * fullermd shudders.
[10:46] <fullermd> It burns us, preciouss!
[10:46] <poolie> bialix, so i would like us to agree on a specific thing for 2.2, but i don't want a thread where everyone names their favourite bug
[10:46]  * vila throws some snow balls at poolie
[10:47] <bialix> poolie: yep
[10:47] <poolie> i recognize there's useful data in it but it just seems likely to cause disappointment if we don't go for whatever is most loudly demanded
[10:47] <poolie> ooh that's nice
[10:48] <bialix> poolie: I'm a bit tired with my scmproj and I have to rewrite big part of it, so I'm asking
[10:48] <bialix> nested trees deferred for ~ 1 year
[10:48] <poolie> so we could try to merge nested trees
[10:48] <poolie> i wonder if it's too intrusive of a way to put it in
[10:48] <poolie> in some ways we should just clear the decks and do it
[10:48] <poolie> i wonder if we can do anything in the core to allow plugins to do this really well
[10:49] <poolie> oh, there are some user questions open on lp if anyone wants to answer them
[10:50] <vila> Ideally we should ad hooks or whatever is needed in core to *allow* a plugin (or several) to implement nested trees
[10:50] <Coke> poolie: no luck
[10:50] <poolie> right, that would be nicer
[10:50] <poolie> ok i'm going to call it a night
[10:50] <poolie> have a good day europe
[10:50] <Coke> still as slow
[10:50] <vila> Doing it via plugins lower the constraints about compatibility while allowing experiments
[10:50] <poolie> right
[10:50] <Coke> nn
[10:50] <vila> poolie: have a nice night
[10:50] <poolie> also, maybe has a cleaner architecture
[10:51] <bialix> today the limit of either scmproj or bzr-externals is lack of snapshots
[10:51] <fullermd> A problem with trials like that is that figuring out just what sorta hooks are needed is the lions share of _doing_ it   :|
[10:51] <bialix> i.e. they don't record revision-ids of entire tree
[10:51] <vila> fullermd: that could be driven by the plugin authors
[10:52] <vila> bialix: revids of nested trees ?
[10:53] <bialix> vila: I'm not sure hooks will help there
[10:53] <fullermd> Yeah.  Has to be, really.  But it risks turning into a long serialized HCF sorta process.
[10:53] <jelmer> vila: they just point at the tip of a branch, not a specific revision
[10:53] <bialix> there is need to run some operations recursively in all trees'
[10:53] <jelmer> whereas nested trees in their current form only support specific revisions, not tip
[10:53] <bialix> fullermd: HCF?
[10:53] <bialix> vila: yes
[10:53] <bialix> jelmer: ?
[10:54] <jelmer> bialix: nested trees as aaron has implemented them only support snapshots
[10:54] <vila> jelmer: ':tip' as a special revid like ':null' ?
[10:54] <jelmer> (If I understand the terminology right)
[10:54] <bialix> jelmer: that's good
[10:55] <vila> urgh, non-sense
[10:55] <bialix> jelmer: one can easily implement: for $each-subtree do bzr pull
[10:55] <fullermd> bialix: "Halt and Catch Fire".  No real relevance, I was just being whimsical.
[10:55] <jelmer> vila: well, the tip of the branch, no matter what revspec you use to describe it :-)
[10:55] <jelmer> vila: tip: would be one way of supporting non-snapshots with the current bzr nested tree storage format
[10:56] <jelmer> bialix: pulling a subtree is a change to the parent tree
[10:56] <vila> jelmer: hmm, I said non-sense because if you want to refer to a particular revision for a tree you don't want the nested tree to change
[10:57] <vila> so, yes, you want some mechanism in place to update or not when you pull, merge, etc
[10:59] <bialix> jelmer: believe me: I have much more problems because of lack of snapshots
[10:59] <bialix> jelmer: I don't understand
[10:59] <bialix> what it means: pulling a subtree is a change to the parent tree?
[11:00] <bialix> if I change subtree I should commit this changes to parent tree, yes, that's right
[11:01] <jelmer> I think I should probably get out of this discussion because I'm only familiar with the nested tree terminology, not with the scmproj terminology.
[11:05] <bialix> I'm not very familiar with nested trees terminology, bad
[11:06] <bialix> how nested trees called the entire saved state of all subtrees?
[11:06] <bialix> in hg they save revids to .hgsubstate
[11:06] <lifeless> bialix: it doesn't have that concept
[11:06] <lifeless> its just part of the inventory
[11:06] <lifeless> and only refers to the immediate children.
[11:07] <lifeless> its recursive, so deeper children are referred to by their containing tree.
[11:07] <bialix> so there should be a way to update inventory for desired revision
[11:08] <lifeless> yes, there is an api call
[11:08] <bialix> IIUC it's similar to textual changes?
[11:09] <lifeless> yes
[11:09] <bialix> but the subtrees all live in separate branches, right? so I should be able to update just specific subtree
[11:10] <bialix> if there is no built-in way, then we can call API in the plugin
[11:12] <lifeless> bialix: I don't understand the question
[11:14] <bialix> lifeless: there is nested by value and by reference
[11:14] <bialix> I'm talking about by reference case
[11:15] <lifeless> yes
[11:15] <lifeless> I guet that
[11:15] <bialix> referenced subtree lives outside main tree IIUC
[11:15] <lifeless> I don't know what you mean by 'update just specific substree'
[11:15] <lifeless> do you mean 'update the referenced revision'
[11:15] <bialix> so if it external than we should be able to pull/push it
[11:15] <lifeless> or 'do an update on the local tree for the subtree'
[11:16] <bialix> I mean cd subtree; bzr pull
[11:16] <lifeless> sure, just do it
[11:16] <lifeless> nothing else needed
[11:16] <lifeless> the next commit in the parent tree will notice and record it
[11:20] <bialix> brilliant
[15:50] <naoki_> Hi, all.
[15:51] <naoki_> https://code.launchpad.net/~songofacandy/bzr/fix-524560/+merge/19737
[15:51] <naoki_> I found 'N' mode on msdn.
[15:51] <naoki_> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/yeby3zcb.aspx
[15:52] <naoki_> This mode means open file with os.O_NOINHERIT.
[15:53] <naoki_> And I test the mode on Linux. 'N' is just ignored.
[15:53] <naoki_> Currently, my bugfix branch make osutils.open and use it instead of builtin open.
[15:54] <naoki_> osutils.open adds 'N' on win32, osutils.open is builtin open on Linux.
[15:55] <naoki_> Can I use 'N' on Linux?
[15:55] <naoki_> If I can, I'll remove osutils.open and add 'N' for open() in transport.local
[16:04] <Mez> "secret service operation failed" ...
[16:04] <Mez> doesn't sound good.
[16:04] <Mez> I don't like secrets in my system
[16:10] <vila> Mez: And how is that related to bzr ?
[16:15] <jelmer> naoki_: that sounds reasonable
[16:19] <naoki_> manpage for fopen describe modes.
[16:20] <naoki_> posix modes: r, r+, w, w+, a, a+
[16:20] <naoki_> glibc extension (trailing chars): c, e, m, x
[16:21] <naoki_> I don't know other libc's fopen extension.
[16:23] <naoki_> Using 'N' only on win32 is safe because glibc and other libc can use 'N' for some meaning...
[16:25] <naoki_> BTW, what name is suitable for osutils.open? open_noinherit? open_safe?
[18:38] <chromakode> hey folks, can you give me any suggestions on how to extract all code lines touched by a specific author?
[18:55] <jelmer> chromakode: from Python code or from the command line?
[18:55] <chromakode> either way is fine
[18:56] <jelmer> chromakode: from the command-line the easiest thing to do is probably to loop over all files in the working tree, run "bzr annotate" on them and grep
[18:56] <chromakode> that's a good idea! though it won't include past code
[18:56] <chromakode> I guess you could do it for each revno
[18:57] <Tak> could grep the log for the author, then annotate from there
[18:58] <jelmer> chromakode: from python it should be possible to find all changed lines by using a combination of the log and the annotate code
[19:00] <chromakode> thank you, I can work off that :)
[19:00] <chromakode> if I end up writing a script to do this, I'll post it here.
[19:00] <rubbs> I'd like that ^
[19:43] <_TiN_> Hi, I'm trying server bzr through apache with mod_wsgi, and the "app" return nothing. This is my wsgi script http://dpaste.com/163148/ and the output is a clean list, just []
[19:43] <_TiN_> :-/
[21:04] <poolie> hi jam, shall we talk?
[21:13] <shodan45> what options do I need for bzr to make a .patch file that works with patch?
[21:16] <marienz> none?
[21:17] <marienz> that is: I'm pretty sure I've fed "bzr di" output to patch
[21:17] <marienz> shodan45: ^^^
[21:17] <shodan45> marienz, ok, then what options to patch do I need? none? because it sure doesn't work for me :/
[21:18] <lifeless> shodan45: when you apply it, pass -p0 to patch
[21:18] <lifeless> or is it p1, I think its p0
[21:19] <marienz> shodan45: I think it's -p0 but it might be -p1. I usually need to try both with --dry-run.
[21:19] <marienz> actually it's probably -p1
[21:19] <shodan45> ok, I thought for sure I tried both -p0 and -p1, but -p0 worked
[21:19] <shodan45> thanks :)
[22:11] <_TiN_> Howto disable the comprobation SSL certificates?
[22:11] <_TiN_> bzr push bzr+https://myurl
[22:12] <_TiN_> bzr: ERROR: Connection error: curl connection error (server certificate verification failed. CAfile: /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none)
[22:14] <_TiN_> /s/comprobation/check
[22:16] <mwhudson> _TiN_: using a https+urllib:// url will work i think
[22:33] <_TiN_> mwhudson: this just work on cloning, when i try push doesn't work because the protocol is bzr+http[s]
[22:34] <bob2> heh
[22:34] <bob2> can you append +urllib to that?
[22:35] <_TiN_> bob2: unsupported protocol
[22:35] <_TiN_> bzr+https+urllib or urllib+bzr+https or bzr+urllib+https
[22:37] <mwhudson> bzr+ shouldn't be necessary
[22:43] <_TiN_> mwhudson: the push doesn't work with http[s]+urllib
[22:43] <_TiN_> mwhudson: in this link say http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.2.1/en/user-guide/http_smart_server.html?highlight=mod_python#pushing-over-bzr-http
[23:33] <spiv> _TiN_: that doc is out-of-date, or at least misleading.  You can omit the 'bzr+' prefix on http URLs; bzr will automatically probe for a smart server and use it anyway.
[23:34] <spiv> _TiN_: you might be encountering some other problem, of course :(
[23:36] <_TiN_> spiv: noup, whitout bzr+ prefix doesn't work, but uninstall pycurl it's work :-)
[23:36] <_TiN_> thanks verterok ;-)
[23:37] <spiv> _TiN_: and https+urllib didn't work?
[23:37] <spiv> Odd.
[23:37] <verterok> _TiN_: you'r welcome :)
[23:37] <spiv> _TiN_: anyway, please file a bug :)
[23:37] <spiv> _TiN_: we want this stuff to Just Work
[23:38] <verterok> spiv: heya!
[23:38] <verterok> spiv: I can't uninstall pycurl so I'm stuck with this bug ;)
[23:39] <spiv> verterok: maybe you should file it then? :)
[23:39] <spiv> (Or is it already filed?)
[23:39] <verterok> spiv: I can't uninstall pycurl so I'm stuck with this bug ;)
[23:39] <verterok> spiv: I keep getting: bzr: ERROR: Unsupported protocol for url "urllib+https://trac.usla.org.ar/bzr/prueba_bzr"
[23:40] <verterok> spiv: and with reverse order, I get the user/pass prompt but: bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "https+urllib://trac.usla.org.ar/bzr/prueba_bzr/".
[23:40] <verterok> spiv: I think it's https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/82086
[23:40] <spiv> verterok: right, https+urllib is the correct prefix
[23:40] <spiv> verterok: but the https+urllib variant should work
[23:40] <verterok> spiv: so, it might be a server config issue?
[23:41] <spiv> Possibly!
[23:41] <verterok> _TiN_: ^ :)
[23:41] <spiv> verterok: add -Dhpss to the command line, and maybe -Dhttp too, and pastebin the ~/.bzr.log (after sanitising it for passwords etc), or attach it to a bug
[23:42] <verterok> spiv: ok
[23:44] <spiv> verterok: also, perhaps try installing lp:bzr-ping, and try 'bzr ping URL'
[23:44] <spiv> It fails for me, but I don't know the username and password, so that's unsurprising :)
[23:45] <verterok> spiv: pastebin: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/381915/
[23:45]  * verterok branching bzr-ping
[23:46] <_TiN_> verterok: this through varnish http, and https pound+varnish
[23:47] <spiv> So, it appears to be talking to the smart server ok via HTTP
[23:47] <spiv> But then it tries to read /bzr/prueba_bzr/.bzr/branch-format
[23:47] <spiv> via regular HTTP
[23:47] <spiv> And that gets a 404
[23:47] <spiv> So, a server config issue, I think, although bzr should give clearer errors in this case.
[23:48] <spiv> (Although perhaps bzr could try falling back to trying to read only via the smart server)
[23:51] <_TiN_> may be with AliasMatch directive
[23:52] <verterok> spiv: oh, nice. thanks for looking to the logs :)
[23:55] <spiv> verterok: cool.  So please file a bug and attach that, because I'm pretty sure that bzr can do better here.  (and because I'm not really here today)
[23:56] <verterok> spiv: oh, ok.
[23:56] <verterok> spiv: will do it


[01:08] <psusi> is there some info I can read somewhere on the procedure for managing debian packages in git?
[08:58] <trijntje> Hi all, I'm trying to build localised iso images for dutch for Quantal, but for some reason all builds on amd64 fail because of an error configuring the kernel:http://pastebin.com/DUCv8j4h
[08:58] <trijntje> The full build log can be found here (https://launchpadlibrarian.net/122238857/binary.log), can somebody provide me some pointers on how to resolve this?
[13:43] <infinity> pitti: Is apport meant to ignore crashes until I log out and back in, or is that a bug/misfeature?
[13:44] <infinity> pitti: (And how can I force it to re-scan /var/crash/ and report everything that hasn't been reported yet without logging out?)
[14:01] <penguin42> infinity: Well you can give it one explicitly, i.e. apport-cli /var/crash/whatever
[14:03] <infinity> penguin42: Not quite what I was hoping for, with a backlog of a dozen or so.
[14:03] <penguin42> infinity: well, that's trivial in shell
[14:05] <infinity> penguin42: Not the point, but thanks.
[14:06] <infinity> achiang: So, that new valgrind from unstable will require some MIRs for openmpi stuff, or some removal of build-deps and (presumably) features.
[14:09] <infinity> achiang: mpi-default-dev is in universe, as is its direct dep (libopenmpi-dev)
[14:13] <infinity> achiang: Doing a logical revert of this bit could be the path of least resistance:
[14:14] <infinity>   * Enable mpiwrap module (Closes: #565139)
[14:14] <infinity>     - Add new valgrind-mpi package
[14:14] <infinity>     - valgrind Suggests valgrind-mpi
[14:25] <infinity> achiang: In fact, I've just done that on your behalf, and will sponsor this with your name attached to it, so you get the merge nags. :P
[14:33] <infinity> achiang: Uploaded, with the following diff on top of yours: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1443561/
[14:53] <infinity> achiang: Oh, and FTBFS on arm because of retaining the dh_autoreconf delta.  Oops.
[16:47] <achiang> infinity: the FTBFS is why it was rejected?
[16:51] <infinity> achiang: I uploaded a fixed version.
[16:53] <achiang> infinity: oh, thanks!
[16:56] <achiang> infinity: so no action needed from me? (i got the rejected emails so not entirely clear to me what i need to do)
[16:56] <infinity> achiang: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/valgrind <-- All good now.
[16:57] <achiang> derp. thank you
[16:57]  * achiang only built on x86, will definitely build on armhf next time
[16:58] <achiang> <= ashamed
[16:58] <infinity> S'ok, I didn't test on ARM either. :P
[16:58] <infinity> And, arguably, it's a bug in the Debian patches that he patches configure without patching configure.in to match.
[16:59] <infinity> But not autoreconfing fixes it, so whatever.  Keeps the delta lower.
[17:01] <jtaylor> valgrind upgrade closes 1077014 and 1041117
[17:05] <infinity> Close away, then.
[17:21] <jtaylor> we should probably backport 3.8 to precise
[17:21] <jtaylor> the avx support makes it useful longer
[17:43] <cjwatson> I've been gradually converting all my autotoolsy packages to dh-autoreconf after realising *just how much easier* it makes it to apply build system patches
[17:43] <cjwatson> admittedly in one case this required a giant patch to upgrade from 2.13
[17:52] <cjwatson> (And yeah, I realise it breaks if somebody has foolishly patched generated files - wants to be done as far upstream as possible, really)
[18:25] <infinity> cjwatson: Oh, I'm all for attempts to autoreconf sanely with one's own Debian packages, just noting that it can fail miserably if Ubuntu deviates from Debian on that score.
[18:25] <infinity> cjwatson: (Because, yes, as noted, we may not notice if Debian introduces a patch to the generated files)
[18:26] <infinity> In this case, I noticed because the build actually failed when said patch go regenerated into oblivion, but that was just luck, really.
[18:26] <infinity> s/go/got/
[19:53] <achiang> jtaylor: would a valgrind backport to precise be an SRU candidate or just go into -backports ?
[19:53] <jtaylor> achiang: backports
[19:54] <jtaylor> probably a quite simple one
[19:54] <jtaylor> no rdepends and builds unmodified
[19:54] <jtaylor> wait it has rdepends o_O
[19:54] <jtaylor> but probably all not problematic
[19:55] <achiang> what rdepends does it have? (in the middle of eating a meal now ;)
[19:55] <jtaylor> looks like programs to display its results
[19:56] <jtaylor> kcackegrind eclipse codeblocks stuff
[19:57] <jtaylor> I'll let it settle a bit in raring and file a request
[19:57] <jtaylor> you are welcome to help testing :)
[19:57] <achiang> heh
[19:57] <achiang> ok
[19:57] <jtaylor> thx for the update
[19:58] <achiang> it would be nice for another thing i'm working on to see a newer valgrind in -backports, but now i'm weighing the effort of the rdepends too
[19:58] <achiang> that probably pushes it out into the "nice to have if someone else did it" territory for my own personal bandwidth. :-/
[19:58] <achiang> but yeah, i could help test
[20:01] <penguin42> has something changed with X ABI over the last week ? I've just rebuilt a package with some debug added and it's complaining about ABI version mismatch, doing that last week was fine
[20:02] <jtaylor> which package?
[20:02] <penguin42> jtaylor: It's xserver-xorg-video-cirrus I've been debugging
[20:08] <penguin42>  (EE) module ABI minor version (1) is newer than the server's version (0)
[20:12] <penguin42> ah right, yes it has
[20:12] <penguin42> got bumped last week
[20:14] <psusi> cjwatson, why is libparted packaged in libparted0-debian1 with a dummy libparted0 depending on it?
[22:58] <_abbe> Hola!
[22:59] <_abbe> I've a fix for a bug report for which I've patched the sources, and generated quilt patches (courtesy: dpkg-source --commit)
[22:59] <_abbe> I'm wondering how to go about submitting it
[23:00] <_abbe> should i just upload the quilt patch ? or is there something else i need to follow?
[23:00] <jtaylor> _abbe: which bug?
[23:00] <_abbe> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libnfsidmap/+bug/1088154
[23:00] <jtaylor> _abbe: the usual process is to attach a debdiff and subscribe ubuntu-sponsors
[23:01] <jtaylor> _abbe: for stable release update follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[23:01] <_abbe> jtaylor: debdiff ? is that a package i need to install
[23:01] <jtaylor> _abbe: a debdiff is a package-patch
[23:02] <jtaylor> it can be generated with the debdiff program, debdiff old.dsc new.dsc
[23:02] <_abbe> oh, devscripts
[23:02] <_abbe> i didn't have that installed, installing it then posting to the bugreport
[23:03] <jtaylor> for a proper debdiff use dch -i, describe your changes and then build source the package
[23:03] <jtaylor> with debuild -us -uc -S
[23:04] <jtaylor> that will give you the new dsc
[23:04] <jtaylor> you may need to install build dependencies, most conviniently that is done with mk-build-deps -ir
[23:05] <_abbe> I'm actually running new .deb in production, i've done anything to control file, just fixed the bug, generate the quilt patch, and built .deb
[23:06] <jtaylor> the quilt patch can be sufficient, depends on who sponsors it in the end
[23:06] <jtaylor> if possible please check if it applies to debian to and submit your patch there too
[23:07] <_abbe> okay, i guess i'll go with quilt then
[23:08] <jtaylor> we also need to know to which release it applies to
[23:09] <_abbe> it's for precise, but looking at changelog i don't see anything in quantal which fixes it
[23:10] <jtaylor> please follow the wiki for an update in precise
[23:10] <jtaylor> but it first needs to be fixed in raring
[23:10] <jtaylor> and quantal
[23:13] <jtaylor> _abbe: could it be a duplicate of bug 939232?
[23:13] <jtaylor> no thats fixed in precise
[23:14] <_abbe> jtaylor: i searched for my bug already, and didn't find in tracker a week ago, and the one you pasted is different from what i'm experiencing
[23:30] <_abbe> posted. thanks for the help jtaylor
[23:40] <jtaylor> hm making functions static is problematic
[23:40] <cjwatson> psusi: who knows, maybe I explained it in the changelog?  see 2.2-4
[23:41] <cjwatson> archaeology (changelog or otherwise) is a fundamental skill in package maintenance :)
[23:42] <psusi> cjwatson, does that mean that this was done because upstream broke abi without changing sonamever?
[23:42] <psusi> cjwatson, and since upstream has moved to a new sonamever, this can be dropped now?
[23:43] <cjwatson> please read the changelog and the contained bug reference, and say that you've done so, before asking further questions?
[23:44] <cjwatson> (if you had, you wouldn't be asking that question)
[23:44]  * cjwatson -> bed
[23:47] <_abbe> yes needs proper testing, but from what i see in my setup, it didn't break anything
[23:48] <cjwatson> BTW I am more than happy to deal with parted 3.x packaging once d-i is migrated away from the relevant obsolete functions
[23:48] <cjwatson> and when I do that I know how to do the appropriate things with its versioning
[23:48] <cjwatson> I just don't see the point of doing it knowing that it will break the installer
[23:49] <jtaylor> _abbe: nfs-utils does not contain libraries, so it might be ok
[23:50] <jtaylor> _abbe: but I think that change should be done upstream first
[23:50] <_abbe> yes, definitely
[23:50] <_abbe> but only if someone else tests it as well
[23:50] <_abbe> this needs a bit of time!
[23:53] <jtaylor> _abbe: it would be good if you could contact upstream about it, maybe the debian maintainers too
[23:53] <jtaylor> this is unfortunately far outside my area of knowledge
[23:53] <_abbe> Okay, I'll post it to upstream as well, and if they accept then file a bug report against Debian
[23:54] <jtaylor> thx
[23:54] <TheLordOfTime> i'd file against Debian anyways
[23:54] <TheLordOfTime> but that's just me ;)
[23:55] <jtaylor> I must leave now, bye
[23:57] <psusi> cjwatson, the fs resize functions have been put back, but in a separate lib, so I think it just needs packaged properly, and d-i and gparted and whatever else patched to link to the new lib
[23:58] <cjwatson> Not that simple.
[23:58] <cjwatson> I'm sure I've explained this at some length before.
[23:58] <cjwatson> I'm currently filing a Debian bug on partman-base with the details of what needs to be done.


[02:43] <xubuntu399> Need some help installing the ISO
[02:43] <holstein> xubuntu399: installing the iso to a USB stick? or installing the operating system using the iso?
[02:43] <xubuntu399> anyone able to help?
[02:43] <bazhang> burning it to cd or usb
[02:44] <xubuntu399> burned it to a DVD after a bit torrent download
[02:44] <bazhang> so whats the issue
[02:44] <xubuntu399> not being recognized during boot
[02:44] <holstein> xubuntu399: is it a DVD rom?
[02:44] <bazhang> md5 the iso yet?
[02:45] <xubuntu399> yes
[02:45] <bazhang> do the disk integrity check after a slow burn speed?
[02:45] <xubuntu399> k
[02:45] <gratefulj> can anybody help me install my wireless usb... i think i have the driver install with ndiswrapper but i can't see it in my panel
[02:46] <xubuntu399> disk integity is good
[02:46] <holstein> xubuntu399: you checked from the menu at boot?
[02:47] <xubuntu399> no. how?
[02:48] <holstein> xubuntu399: at boot, there is a disk check...
[02:48] <gratefulj> hardware says its present in the windows wireless drivers app
[02:48] <holstein> gratefulj: thats good... you dont see the wifi icon? the network icon?
[02:48] <gratefulj> no
[02:49] <gratefulj> and in the panel it just has enable networking, no notion of wireless
[02:49] <holstein> gratefulj: output lsusb in
[02:49] <holstein> !paste | gratefulj
[02:50] <xubuntu399> what does it look like?
[02:50] <holstein> xubuntu399: its a menu item ... tap shift, should say "confirm iso" or "check disk"
[02:50] <gratefulj> looks like i need to install yagiuda
[02:51] <holstein> gratefulj: for?..you can just open a terminald and type that and paste it in. no yagiuda needed
[02:51] <gratefulj> when i  type output says command not found
[02:51] <gratefulj> suggested i installed that
[02:52] <holstein> gratefulj: lsusb ?
[02:52] <gratefulj> ouput
[02:52] <gratefulj> output
[02:53] <gratefulj> but each command says i need a -option
[02:55] <gratefulj> your command you posted didn't work
[02:55] <holstein> gratefulj: share all the ouput
[02:55] <holstein> gratefulj: you can paste it in a pastebin
[02:56] <gratefulj> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1199844/
[02:56] <xubuntu399> not on this system
[02:57] <xubuntu399> I am in the BIOS and cant get the system to boot from the DVD drive
[02:57] <xubuntu399> it is that or the disk is the problem
[02:58] <holstein> xubuntu399: all of those are different... i would try ruling that out.. maybe try booting the DVD in another machine.. boot another DVD in that machine
[02:58] <holstein> gratefulj: OK
[02:58] <holstein> open a terminal and type this
[02:58] <holstein> lsusb
[02:58] <holstein> then hit enter and past that output
[02:59] <xubuntu399> I think I ruled it out. I know there are several versions of the software. How do I decide which one to use. IE how do I figure out 32 vs 64 bit
[02:59] <holstein> xubuntu399: 32 will typically always work
[03:00] <holstein> xubuntu399: i would google the hardware if i didnt see anything anywhere on the unit
[03:00] <gratefulj> i see it
[03:01] <gratefulj> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1199847/
[03:03] <holstein> gratefulj: i would refer to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx and see if you even need ndis
[03:03] <holstein> i would just try installing the b43-fwcutter and firmware-b43-installer packages
[03:06] <gratefulj> then what?
[03:06] <holstein> gratefulj: i would reboot or reload as the page suggests and see if the device works..
[03:08] <gratefulj> hmm
[03:08] <gratefulj> i think you fixed my internal wireless
[03:08] <gratefulj> but the usb one i bought still doesn't connect
[03:08] <gratefulj> interesting
[03:10] <gratefulj> thank you
[03:10] <gratefulj> i wonder how much better my usb wireless is
[03:10] <gratefulj> worth the hassle to get it working or not
[03:11] <gratefulj> i'd assume so, comp 5+ years usb brand new
[03:11] <holstein> gratefulj: if you have the reciept, i would just return it and enjoy the functional one
[03:11] <holstein> i dont have an N router though
[03:12] <holstein> you might be able to disable the internal one and get the USB one to work easier
[03:20] <gratefulj> thank you
[04:33] <CQN> what directories do i delete to rest xfce settings? i think i have config files from a previous version of xubuntu left over. i tried deleting ~/.config/xfce, but that had no effect after rebooting
[06:05] <mrdoctorwho> Hello. After last update all Qt-apps that have tray icon placed in Xfce4-indicator-plugin. Is there any way to remove it from indicator and replace to tray?
[06:47] <ochosi> mrdoctorwho: there might be a package that supports indicators in qt
[06:48] <ochosi> mrdoctorwho: but if you don't find that, you can either remove the indicator-plugin from the panel or uninstall the indicator-application package
[06:54] <mrdoctorwho> ochosi: without it nm-applet and volume applet don't work correctly
[06:55] <mrdoctorwho> And with it Qt-apps don't show popup-menu correctly
[07:55] <pappawagner> Hi. Any tips on how to purge my system from old files after updates?
[08:02] <TheSheep> sudo apt-get autoremove --purge && sudo apt-get autoclean
[08:02] <pappawagner> What will the commands do, just remove old ones ore more?
[08:04] <tsimpson> you should be able to do something like: dpkg --purge $(dpkg -l | grep '^rc' | awk '{print $2}')
[08:04] <TheSheep> the first one will uninstall all the packages that are dependencies of no longer installed packages
[08:04] <TheSheep> the second one deletes the downloaded files
[08:04] <tsimpson> which will get a list of packages which are removed with only config files remaining, then pass that list back to dpkg for purging
[08:06] <pappawagner> Thanks - I'm running the first at the moment :-D
[10:25] <pimperle> i cannot shut down a fresh 12.04 xubuntu installation. i did not change anything, but after logging in, logging out again, i cannot perform a shutdown/reboot from the login screen. Confirming the dialog brings me back to the screen immediately.
[12:19] <wizardslovak> hi ppl
[18:35] <cavi> Hello?
[18:36] <rainfall> Hello
[18:36] <cavi> I am havin issues intalling LSB-Core :/
[18:37] <cavi> cavibird2005@Cavis-Zenbook:~$ sudo apt-get install lsb-core [sudo] password for cavibird2005:  Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree        Reading state information... Done Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable distribution that some required packages have not yet been created or been moved out of Incoming. The following infor
[18:38] <Sysi> cavi: did you run sudo apt-get update
[18:38] <cavi> I can gimme a sec
[18:40] <cavi> same issue afterward
[18:43] <xubuntu206> Hi guys. is anybody russian here? I'm have some definitely stupid questions, can someone help in private messages?
[18:43] <Sysi> !ru
[18:44] <xubuntu206> But questions about xubuntu,not ubuntu?
[18:45] <Mathias> the core is the same, but the user interface/window manager is different
[18:45] <Mathias> so kind of both i think :P
[18:45] <Sysi> loco:s should handle other flavours too
[18:46] <xubuntu206> so, it means , that i can ask on ru channel, and they help me? or just kick/ban,because of lame? =(
[18:46] <xubuntu206> "should"...
[18:46] <Pici> xubuntu206: No one should be kicking you for being new.
[18:47] <xubuntu206> I'm gonna give it aa try. Thanks guys.
[18:55] <xubuntu206> Err, they just ignoring.
[18:59] <xubuntu206> here's the question:When system boots up,and user selecting menu appears,there's a submenu, called"Enviroment" r somethin. if i clik, some menu appears, with Xfce and other lines. Whit is it?
[19:06] <TheSheep> xubuntu206: the default settings and desktop environment to use
[19:06] <TheSheep> xubuntu206: you see, you can have ubuntu, xubuntu, kubuntu, etc. installed at the same time and select them there
[19:07] <xubuntu206> Wow. And, it will be different OS or SAME, with only GUI changed?
[19:07] <xubuntu206> I mean, if i install some apps in Xfce, then they will not work in others, right?
[19:08] <David-A> xubuntu206: In xubuntu there is the alternatives "Xfce session" and "Xubuntu session". different backgrund and menu structure. try both and use what you like best.
[19:08] <Mathias> they will work in others afaik
[19:08] <Mathias> the core is the same, it's just the display manager that's different
[19:08] <David-A> xubuntu206: most programs work in both Xfce, Gnome/Unity and KDE.
[19:09] <xubuntu206> What is this - display manager?
[19:10] <TheSheep> xubuntu206: the program that draws your window borders, decides where to put the windows, which windows should have the focus, etc. -- is the window manager
[19:10] <TheSheep> xubuntu206: there there are other parts, like the program that displays the dekstop, the program that displays the panels, etc.
[19:11] <TheSheep> xubuntu206: together they make a desktop environment
[19:11] <Sysi> David-A: though after first time loggin in settings are saved and shouldn't change
[19:11] <TheSheep> xubuntu206: and ubuntu has several of such sets to choose from
[19:11] <TheSheep> xubuntu206: standard ubuntu uses gnome3 and unity
[19:11] <TheSheep> xubuntu206: kubuntu uses kde
[19:11] <TheSheep> xubuntu206: and xubuntu uses xfce4
[19:12] <xubuntu206> So simple explanation,miracle)
[19:13] <TheSheep> it does get complicated
[19:14] <TheSheep> for example, different applicatiosn will use different widget toolkits, which make them look differently -- so the kde applications may look out of place in unity
[19:14] <TheSheep> but they will work just fine
[19:14] <TheSheep> just look inconsistent
[19:15] <craigbass1976> I'm running the ppc version of 12.04, and a wireless network in range isn't showing up.  This works fine at my house.
[19:16] <TheSheep> craigbass1976: you might check #ubuntu-ppc, because here not many people have experience with it
[19:33] <craigbass1976> TheSheep, Maybe it's not ppc related.  I get the "wireless networks available" message, then nothing shows up in the list.  Have you ever seen this happen?
[19:33] <Mathias> i've seen that happen a couple of times
[19:33] <TheSheep> nope, sorry
[19:33] <Mathias> just need to turn the wireless off and then on again
[19:34] <Mathias> and sometimes need to disable all networking for a couple of minutes
[19:39] <craigbass1976> Weird.  I set it up manually and crossed my fingers, and voila!  Now, I need to take this to a school board meeting tonight and wonder if it will hook up there...
[19:43] <Mathias> :P
[20:39] <tukata> hello
[20:41] <lut_tul> hi
[20:41] <lut_tul> I need help. please tell me how to install a software on xubuntu
[20:41] <lut_tul> example i just download firefox
[20:41] <lut_tul> and I want to install it on ubuntu
[20:41] <lut_tul> How can I do it? please help
[20:43] <Unit193> You don't do it like that, you open synaptic or Ubuntu Software Center and search for firefox.
[20:43] <Unit193> !software | lut_tul


[00:21] <fisch246> anyone here in the metro? there will be a party in Hopkins if you're in the area :)


[03:37] <__Techie__> might i have rushed into the networking configuration too fast?
[05:51] <joerg> _Techie_, maybe
[13:34] <mgariepy> morning all
[14:18] <highvoltage> morning mgariepy
[14:19] <mgariepy> highvoltage you won't see any snow when you arrive i think the winter is over now :(
[14:20] <highvoltage> mgariepy: pity. on the other hand... I'll have double-summer :)
[14:21] <mgariepy> highvoltage, yeah indeed, i just hope we will have a great summer.
[14:21] <highvoltage> mgariepy: hopefully renewing a work permit isn't so much effort
[14:22] <highvoltage> monday they sent me a message saying they want proof that I worked everywhere I say I did, so I had to hunt a bunch of people down so that they could write and sign letters saying so and post it to the embassy
[14:22] <highvoltage> hopefully that will have been the last stuff they want from me
[14:24] <mgariepy> i hope so too. or you'll finish by having 2 winters ;)
[14:44] <highvoltage> mgariepy: I'll probably be coming back this side in September and be back that side by January. It's a bit hard to plan and make everything work at this stage :)
[14:50] <mgariepy> hehe i understand :)
[16:01] <alkisg> nubae: have you seen the " [moodle-packaging] Time to Orphan?" mail in the ML ?
[16:02] <alkisg> Maybe you'd be interested to help there? I think you're using moodle, no?
[17:05] <Ahmuck> edubuntu on a stick?
[17:05] <Ahmuck> or edubuntu in windows - aka pubuntu
[17:05] <Ahmuck> ?
[20:42] <nubae> alkisg: yes
[20:42] <nubae> can u give me a link that is a beginning point for the problem?
[20:43] <alkisg> I've only got the mail, I don't know anything else about it
[20:44] <nubae> ok, there isnt a tentative plan with a calendar as to when things should be done?
[20:44] <nubae> ie... organisatiion?
[20:48] <alkisg> No idea
[20:48] <alkisg> As I understood it, they're looking for a maintainer
[20:57] <nubae> WEll the entire moodle on a stick thing is a complex one...
[20:57] <nubae> before that... we need gears working well with moodle to synch between local setups and a server
[20:57] <nubae> Martin Langhoff of olpc fame is working on that, as its one of the bsic tenants for Sugar and the one laptop per children
[20:58] <nubae> but, he's one man, and the people that have come and cone to help out with the gears integration have shown that this is not s easy as it might sound. Everyone goes in a different direction when trying to set i tup.
[20:59] <nubae> I believe the best way is to do something with gears that is quite general and wll allow any of our edubuntu apps to run offlne
[21:00] <nubae> that would be one hell of an advancement
[21:00] <nubae> and a necessary one since lets face it, eedubuntu is most interesting in environments where there is no reguar internet access.
[21:01] <nubae> Now.... back to something practical on my part... I need to learn how to do the official packaging dance, can someone point me to the best docs to follow... thanks?
[21:02] <alkisg> I guess you should reply to the ML for that
[21:02] <alkisg> The maintainer said that it's time for him to resign, so you should reply to him and tell him that you're interested (if indeed you are) and ask for whatever directions...
[21:03] <alkisg> See the ML archives for the actual mail
[21:03] <nubae> umm... intrested in what?
[21:03] <nubae> resigning from what?
[21:03] <nubae> sorry for the dense questions, but its not clear to me
[21:03] <alkisg> There's a man who's packaging moodle
[21:03] <alkisg> He doesn't want to do that anymore
[21:04] <alkisg> So we won't have moodle packages for debian/ubuntu, unless someone else wants to do this job
[21:05] <alkisg> I don't use moodle, but I thought you did, and you were asking yesterday about any edubuntu-related work, that's why I mentioned it..
[21:05] <alkisg> And that's all I know about it - for whatever more you'd need to ask him...
[22:12] <nubae> I am using moodle yes
[22:13] <nubae> link to specifiic email if u have it...
[22:13] <nubae> oh.... alkisg is gone:-(


[16:51] <tomreyn> should the !lpstatus (ubottu) factoid be updated to point to https://ubuntu.social/@launchpadstatus (or possibly to https://dev.launchpad.net/Maintenance )?
[16:51] <tomreyn> !lpstatus
[21:43] <cjwatson> tomreyn: yes, I think it should point to the ubuntu.social account (but I don't know how to update it)
[21:44] <tomreyn> cjwatson: i can do so if you like, or you could request it in #ubuntu-bots
[21:45] <tomreyn> (please indicate any other changes to the wording you'd like to see happen, if any)


[09:30] <xubuntu95w> Hello, does anyone know the best method to use a windows-orientated program under xubuntu?
[09:41] <xubuntu95w> Is Wine the best, or is there another, better possibility?
[09:43] <xubuntu95w> I mostly (about 99%) work with Xubuntu 14.04 LTS, but there are 1 or 2 programs which I use, which are only there under Windows.
[09:55] <Meerkat> xubuntu95w, what kind of programs? You may be able to run them better in a virtual machine. I do that for Hammer and some other applications.
[10:42] <q3575634> No have vpn L2TP (no encryption). My provider use vpn l2tp  or a small number of pptp users pptp. pptp not works normaly internet speed only 2000 kbits. But new users only L2tp In my country I think it will be more than one hundred thousand connected to that ISP. Provider gradually translate users on PPPOE but the full transition will take I think at least 5 years if not more
[10:43] <q3575634> pptp/L2TP not works normaly internet speed only 2000 kbits on Linux, Windows - ok
[10:47] <q3575634> No have vpn L2TP (no encryption). My provider use vpn l2tp  or a small number of pptp users pptp. pptp not works normaly internet speed only 2000 kbits. But new users only L2tp. In my country I think it will be more than one hundred thousand users. Provider gradually translate users on PPPOE but the full transition will take I think at least 5 years if not more
[10:48] <q3575634> i not use router
[11:13] <q3575634>   There are only two options: to have a router or VirtualBox/vmvare Player on Windows.
[11:23] <q3575634> This disease is almost all Linux. Not working properly PPTP/L2TP. How are things going with the server version. There is support by default, l2tp on the server version of Ubuntu without configuring through command and additional installation of packages l2tp?
[11:25] <xubuntu37w> Hi !  I have a quick question...   How to report a bug in Xubuntu 14.04 LTS??
[11:33] <q3575634> bug or not bug How to use vpn L2tp?
[14:03] <xubuntu822> trying to get a live usb for gparted to reduce my dir - maybe that is THE only way to avoid long waits...just don't know yet
[14:03] <bazhang> get the gparted iso then
[14:03] <bazhang> 60mb at last check
[14:04] <bazhang> gparted.sourceforge.net should have it
[14:07] <xubuntu822> Thanks - newbie here...Had to reinstall after I tore up tables or such - I was booting off usb Ubuntu then openning up gparted - prob not the procedure but I gave it a shot...then lost all - Rebooting and re-installing now so I can make the live usb gparted... thanks for the info - this is my first awareness of on-line presence - awesome!
[14:09] <xubuntu822> I assume Ill need an installer of sorts... thx for the heads up on 60mb partition size!
[14:10] <xubuntu822> thanks bazhang!
[14:10] <bazhang> np
[14:12] <xubuntu822> my goal is to install versions of windows in their own partition...or maybe I should keep the remaining space for the various virtual drives... or not...
[21:45] <simon> when I plug my usb, in dmesg I see "[   42.185119] sd 6:0:0:0: [sdc] Attached SCSI removable disk", but I can't see it in file manager
[22:37] <simon235> Hi, when installing from usb, I don't see my ssd. I've followed this guide: http://superuser.com/questions/863073/ubuntu-14-04-doesnt-see-my-ssd-drive/863086#863086 , but I got this error: "/usr/sbin/grub-probe: error: failed to get canonical path of `/cow'.". Then I've followed this guide: http://askubuntu.com/questions/207663/cannot-update-grub-with-paramters-on-live-usb/333011 , but still got the same error. Someone knows how to fi