[00:43]  * MattJ wants to register lunchpad.net
[00:43] <daftykins> !
[00:43] <daftykins> genius
[05:24] <kaushal> hi
[05:24] <kaushal> I installed php on Live Bootable USB
[05:25] <kaushal> when i rebooted and booted from USB, the php5 is not installed
[05:25] <kaushal> USB is persistent right ?
[05:30] <shauno> I think the default is for liveusb to act just like a livecd.   You might want to take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveUsbPendrivePersistent to see what needs to be different for it to be persistent
[06:03] <kaushal> shauno: ok
[06:21] <shauno> morning knightwise
[06:25] <knightwise> hey shauno  !
[06:25] <knightwise> morning to ya
[06:27] <knightwise> damn
[06:27] <knightwise> i sound like a leprechaurn
[06:27] <shauno> ;)
[06:28] <knightwise> that or an irish barman
[06:29] <shauno> if an irish barman says "morning to ya", you're drinking too early :)
[06:30] <knightwise> also true
[06:30] <knightwise> hmm , just watched the gnome 3 video
[06:30] <knightwise> Gnome looks like unity to me
[06:31] <shauno> haven't tried either yet, but I gather they're both aiming in the same direction
[07:53] <MooDoo> morning
[08:14] <kaushal> popey: hi
[08:15] <kaushal> Yes. Do a standard Ubuntu install onto a USB stick rather than use persistence mode in USB startup disk creator.
[08:15] <kaushal> i did not understand that
[08:16] <AlanBell> the persitence mode basically drops the CD iso onto the USB, and has a read/write area next to it
[08:16] <AlanBell> so you boot into a live CD session, but have some storage space
[08:17] <AlanBell> however you can just install ubuntu on the USB directly as if it was a hard drive
[08:17] <kaushal> ok
[08:17] <Tommeh> Though, beware flash re-write limitations
[08:17] <kaushal> not sure install ubuntu on the USB ?
[08:18] <kaushal> how do i install ubuntu on the USB ?
[08:18] <kaushal> apologies if i am asking basic question ?
[08:18] <Tommeh> It appears as a disk at install time. Just select it :)
[08:18] <AlanBell> stick the USB in, stick CD in, boot from CD, install to USB
[08:19] <AlanBell> Tommeh: I have never actually seen a flash rewrite limitation happen in real life
[08:20] <Tommeh> It's only going to happen if you use it for 6 months or something like that.
[08:20] <AlanBell> I suspect you are likely to forget where you put the USB stick well before it breaks
[08:20] <Tommeh> As a daily-use installation, I mean
[08:21] <Tommeh> USB sticks don't have the wear levelling or sector replacement that SSDs do.
[08:27] <kaushal> AlanBell: Thanks
[08:28] <kaushal> Tommeh: Thanks
[08:28] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Kwabena Aning] Using images in LaTeX - http://blog.kaning.co.uk/archives/261
[08:29] <MartijnVdS> popey++ ("Unity" mailing list link @ twitter)
[08:32] <ali1234> i like the reply where ubuntu's choice to not support a feature is described as "functionality"
[08:32] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: tbh, the whole "let's dump it in the systray" mentality of many programs needs to disappear
[08:32] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: but they're going about it the wrong way :)
[08:32] <ali1234> if you don't like the systray turn it off
[08:33] <ali1234> the indicator just moves it to a deeper menu anyway
[08:33] <ali1234> except that hardly any software supports it
[08:34] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: I mean things like the "HP tools" crapware
[08:34] <ali1234> don't install it then
[08:34] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: I need it for my printer to work
[08:35] <MartijnVdS> It's the same in Windows.. "Let's add a systray icon", so every user has 600.000.000 of them and the had to invent a new way of managing them
[08:35] <ali1234> on linux?
[08:35] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: yeah it does some initialization.. I could close it afterwards
[08:36] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: no wait.. it's the only way to read ink levels.. that's waht it does
[08:36] <ali1234> oh
[08:36] <ali1234> so how would oyu have it work?
[08:36] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: Through the "Ink levels" tab in the "printer settings" window
[08:36] <ali1234> killing the systray won't make that happen
[08:37] <MartijnVdS> but that tells me "Retrieving ink levels isn't supported by this printer"
[08:37] <MartijnVdS> except it is, because the separate tool does it..
[08:37] <ali1234> this has nothing to do with systray, they would still ship a separate tool
[08:37] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: No killing systray won't fix this specific problem. It'll just remove the HP branding from my desktop. And the Spotify banding. And the Skype branding.
[08:37] <MartijnVdS> I haven't seen a useful use of it in a long time.
[08:38] <ali1234> then just remove it
[08:38] <ali1234> it's not required to have the applet on your panel
[08:38] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: That fixes the problem of rogue icons for me. Not for everyone.
[08:39] <ali1234> my tray only has three icons in it: network manager, bluetooth, and pidgin
[08:39] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: They should have made a better api 10-12 years ago, when the whole "systray" API was invented
[08:39] <MartijnVdS> N-M is an indicator now, bluetooth as well
[08:39] <MartijnVdS> I use empathy, which is also an indicator
[08:40] <MartijnVdS> My biggest issue with the whole "new design" crap is the global menu and "be like apple for the sake of being like apple"
[08:41] <ali1234> the indictor only works with the crappy gnome-bluetooth which i don't use
[08:42] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: what do you use then?
[08:42] <ali1234> i suppose now i will have to add indicator back to my pael to get N-M icon back, unless it can be reconfigured
[08:42] <ali1234> i use blueman for bluetooth
[08:42] <MartijnVdS> What are your problems with the Gnome one?
[08:43] <ali1234> it doesn't support enough bluetooth functions
[08:43] <MartijnVdS> It supports audio and file transfer.. what more do you need? :)
[08:44] <ali1234> pan, dun, hid
[08:44] <ali1234> blueman is also easier to use
[08:44] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: it supports hid, I had a mouse that worked fine
[08:44] <MartijnVdS> And I've seen options to set up PAN and DUN
[08:45] <DJones> Morning
[08:45] <ali1234> obex ftp...
[08:46] <ali1234> none of this stuff worked when i started using blueman
[08:46] <MartijnVdS> It does now :)
[08:48] <ali1234> the biggest problem with systray is it doesn't support multimonitor
[08:48] <ali1234> so it's annoying that it's been replaced with something else that also doesn't support multimonitor
[08:58] <Apacheuk> morning all
[08:59] <popey> morning all
[09:02] <Apacheuk> I'm in the middle of a *discussion* with one of our admin guys at work, we have a situation where a number of users/jobs dump xml files into a directory and another user (ifs) picks up those files and processes them, but for some reason the ifs user will only process them if they are owned by ifs, is there a way to set up a directory so that no matter who/what dumps a file in a directory that it has ownership set to
[09:02] <Apacheuk> this ifs user/
[09:03] <bigcalm> Good morning one and all :)
[09:04] <Apacheuk> at the moment we have a job that runs via cron, but thats causing an issue where the ifs process stops working if it tries to pick up a file thats being processed via our cron job?
[09:23] <shauno> that's a fun one Apacheuk. I can do it on bsd, but not linux :(
[09:26] <Apacheuk> :( cheers anyway
[09:27] <oimon> Apacheuk: does it also work if the ifs is not owner but is in the same group?
[09:29] <Apacheuk> I've been told thats been tried and it still causes an issue
[09:29] <oimon> put all common users in the same group, then do chmod g+s on the directory so that  all new files in that directory will inherit the group ownership of the aprent
[09:31] <Apacheuk> I'll check that out..... cheers :)
[09:31] <daubers> Morning
[09:35] <bigcalm> jQuery: I need to run my own script after a 3rd party script has run. I know my script works on generated source, but it's not working in the real world. Anybody with any thoughts?
[09:36] <kazade> Heh, Nokia Fail: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/366637/nokia-symbian-is-not-open-source
[09:39] <oimon> htc overtook nokia in market value - htc in the 00's is what nokia were in the 90s
[09:39] <oimon> rather 10's and 00's
[09:39] <oimon> forgot which decade i was in :S
[09:43] <s-fox> Hello.
[09:44] <bigcalm> Morning
[09:45] <shauno> hm, acl don't seem to do it either
[09:49]  * dwatkins returns
[09:49] <dwatkins> and good morning all
[09:50] <MartijnVdS> g'morning
[09:50] <bigcalm> Afternoon. Is it home time yet?
[09:50] <MartijnVdS> almost
[09:50] <dwatkins> Which timezone are you in, bigcalm?
[09:50] <s-fox> Good evening bigcalm :)
[09:51] <ali1234> wow, holding up empathy of an example of why it's a good idea to put inferior software in by default... that's just crazy
[09:51] <bigcalm> I guess it'll be home time somewhere in the world
[09:51] <bigcalm> dwatkins: BST :P
[09:51] <dwatkins> bigcalm: ah ok, perhaps you start early as I often do.
[09:52] <bigcalm> dwatkins: just bloody tired today
[09:52] <dwatkins> understandable, it being Friday
[09:52] <bigcalm> It's been a long and stressful week. Want it to be over already
[09:54] <dwatkins> yeah, same here - I will be glad when certain things at work are resolved.
[09:58] <oimon> redhat's dodgy glibc update is causing massive problems, i can't believe how slow they are in fixing it :(
[09:59] <dwatkins> in what way is it dodgy, oimon?
[10:00] <oimon> crashes evolution every time when clicking send, and regular gnome-panel crashes, to the annoyance of all my desktop users
[10:01] <oimon> the fact there is no update yet goes to show that Redaht are not interested in the desktop
[10:01] <DJones> oimon: Sounds like a good excuse to migrate them to ubuntu :)
[10:01] <oimon> DJones: my users wouldn't like unity - gnome2 would have to be guaranteed for 12.04 LTS
[10:01] <oimon> half of them are still on KDE
[10:01] <oimon> 3
[10:02] <DJones> Heh
[10:02] <oimon> probably the same ones who use pine still/
[10:03] <oimon> at this point, due to uncertainty over unity, i'd tend towards debian for my users.
[10:03] <shauno> does pine crash when you hit send?  ;)
[10:04] <oimon> man, i don't know how or why they still use pine
[10:04] <davmor2> morning all
[10:04] <oimon> search is ugly and almost impossible
[10:04] <oimon> once they locate an old mail, they forward it to themselves to get it to the top of the list again
[10:04] <shauno> if evo is crashing when you hit send, and pine isn't, I'd say they're justified with sticking with what works :o)
[10:06] <DJones> oimon: Could offer them 10.04, its LTS so plenty of time for them to keep using it
[10:06] <HazRPG> \o
[10:07] <oimon> DJones: our postgrads tend to keep the same release for the duration of their course. so a postgrad joining in sep 2012, and receiving 10.04 would be seriously out of support by the time they complete their course
[10:07] <HazRPG> how's everyone doing?
[10:08] <AlanBell> things don't magically stop working when they are out of support
[10:08] <HazRPG> they sometimes do the minute the warranty runs out, so why wouldn't it :P?
[10:08] <ali1234> they just become a liability
[10:09] <DJones> oimon: Right, I can understand that for consistency, but they're students, surely they want everything to be shiny & new and cutting edge
[10:09] <ali1234> they're postgrads
[10:09] <oimon> DJones: nope!
[10:09] <ali1234> not undergrads
[10:10] <DJones> ali1234: That would make a difference, undergrads would also want cheap/free to leave money in the beer budget
[10:10] <oimon> they do however like dropbox and chromium
[10:12] <oimon> using an OS outside of the support cycle is a massive liability, particularly for security reasons
[10:12] <oimon> lucid desktop expires 04/13
[10:12] <HazRPG> DJones: stereo typing there a bit? :P I liked cheap/free when I was undergrad... but it was because I wanted my money to go into the holiday jar, I hate sitting around in one place for too long
[10:13] <oimon> undergrads have the tablets and laptops. postgrads clamour for the 6yr old PC's i give away
[10:14] <HazRPG> oimon: surely the penny will drop at some point when they realise that new applications are suddenly not in the repo?
[10:14] <HazRPG> and when things like empathy or pidgin or w/e stop working
[10:15] <oimon> HazRPG: you don't wanna know how old the RHEL5.x apps are!
[10:15] <HazRPG> RHEL5.x ? I'm taking it the RH is Red Hat.. EL?
[10:15] <oimon> i feel embrarrassed installing evince 0.60
[10:15] <popey> Enterprise Linux
[10:15] <oimon> HazRPG: centos
[10:15] <oimon> :P
[10:16] <popey> we use RHEL at work on hundreds of boxes
[10:16] <gord> is rhel gonna go with gnome-shell?
[10:16] <HazRPG> hmm
[10:16] <oimon> maybe in 2019
[10:17] <HazRPG> gord: somehow I doubt that :p
[10:17] <oimon> rhel 6 is based off fedora 13, and will last for a while
[10:17] <HazRPG> I'm sure people will support gnome2 for a while yet tbh
[10:17] <gord> shell just doens't seem like the kind of thing that would work well in an enterprise system
[10:18] <HazRPG> I can see the grump-force (possibly me inc.) coming out and trying to keep it alive as possible
[10:18] <HazRPG> as long as possible*
[10:18] <oimon> people don't like it when they think it is just change for change's sake
[10:19] <gord> gnome2 isn't going to die, its code, it exists now and works - it'll exist and work forever
[10:19] <daubers> gord: Has the unity launcher got ldap bindings?
[10:19] <gord> daubers, in what kind of a way?
[10:20] <oimon> gord - however compiz may lose functionality etc, so you are left with a snapshot - gnome 2 compiz 0.8 etc - no bugs get fixed or backported
[10:20] <daubers> gord: With an ldap server can I dictate what goes into the launcher?
[10:20] <gord> daubers, no, why would you need to do that? what goes in to the launcher is gsettings based so you can use whatever people use to remote administer gsettings/gconf stuff
[10:20] <gord> i mean, if there is a valid need let me know
[10:21] <daubers> gord: Ah, ok. Thats just the kind of thing that OpenDirectory/ActiveDirectory servers do. A lot of Uni sites I go onto use that kind of feature in the directories
[10:22] <ali1234> does gnome classic rely on gtk+2?
[10:23] <gord> ali1234, yup
[10:23] <ali1234> so it's basically going to be unsupported pretty soon?
[10:24] <ali1234> what about applications eg gedit? do they have to be rewritten for gtk+3?
[10:24] <gord> eh no
[10:25] <gord> most applications don't need a lot of changes to do gtk3. gtk3 is really not much different from 2
[10:25] <gord> just some api removed - all drawing is done with cairo now
[10:25] <oimon> ali1234: my feeling is that people will produce gnome-panel etc for gtk3 so we aren't stuck with gnome shell -either that or gnome shell will get extended, since it is rather sparse right now - i know that's sort of the intention, but..
[10:25] <ali1234> let me put it another way: can i have gnome-panel with gtk+3?
[10:25] <ali1234> that is, without gtk+2
[10:27] <gord> i'm not sure, gnome-panel is a special case. uses terribad things like bonobo. i think i heard of someone porting it to gtk3 though
[10:27] <ali1234> yeah, it's terrible code, but it's the only panel system for linux that is both usable and looks good
[10:28] <oimon> +1
[10:28] <ali1234> seriously, if KDE ever gets their act together and works out how to render text correctly, i would switch
[10:28] <ali1234> but i've been waiting nearly 10 years for that to happen
[10:28] <oimon> i think these things (gnome panel ) will come with us into the future out of necessity
[10:28] <oimon> and large user base
[10:29] <oimon> ali1234: i didn't get to feedback about ny gvfsd experiements - are you still interested?
[10:29] <ali1234> i reported the bug upstream with python testcase and valgrind log
[10:29] <ali1234> but i guess the developers are kind of busy right now with the 3 release
[10:29] <oimon> system monitor froze on natty , consuming 100% cpu after leaving overnight.
[10:30] <ali1234> well, that's interesting
[10:30] <ali1234> probably overloaded the dbus
[10:30] <oimon> lucid , gvsfd grew to 800M and has stayed there since closing system monitor
[10:30] <ali1234> yeah it will do that
[10:30] <oimon> ali1234: however , gvfsd on natty remained quite low ~ 100mb
[10:30] <ali1234> bug 751523
[10:31] <ali1234> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646867
[10:31] <ali1234> try the python script on natty
[10:31] <ali1234> it will eat up hundreds of mb in a few seconds
[10:32] <oimon> hold on..
[10:32] <ali1234> the amount of memory leaked is entirely dependent on the size of the returned data from listMounts
[10:32] <ali1234> it gets filled up with a lot of stuff like every URL you click in pidgin
[10:32] <ali1234> mine currently returns 200kb of data all of which never gets freed
[10:33] <ali1234> and g-s-m calls it once for every filesystem displayed, so 17 times per second in my case
[10:40] <oimon> ali1234: confirmed on natty
[10:40] <oimon> you should take a screencast of the memory flying up :)
[10:40] <oimon> popey style
[10:41] <oimon> increasing at 1M per second
[11:15] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[11:15] <bigcalm> Morning
[11:16] <brobostigon> morning bigcalm
[11:16] <willy1977> good morning.
[11:16] <brobostigon> orning willy1977
[11:16] <brobostigon> morning*
[11:17] <willy1977> how are we feeling today? TFIF?
[11:17] <davmor2> czajkowski: hugs how's the back
[11:17] <brobostigon> willy1977: not bad, tired, and you?
[11:18] <willy1977> ok, stuck at work - and like you tired ;) but I'm good thanks.
[11:18] <czajkowski> getting better thank you
[11:18]  * brobostigon shares his pot of coffee with willy1977
[11:19] <willy1977> appreciate brobostigon love a nice cup of coffee
[11:19] <willy1977> appreciated*
[11:19] <brobostigon> willy1977: you're welcome, :)
[11:22] <brobostigon> any ideas of something i could try and build for android with google app inventor.?
[11:24] <davmor2> czajkowski: Yay! you'll soon be back to annoying and everything then yes?
[11:24] <czajkowski> yes next week
[11:25] <davmor2> czajkowski: Woohoo! I've missed your goading
[11:26] <willy1977> brobostigon: I've not really seen the google app inventor...
[11:27] <brobostigon> willy1977: it sllows for a graphical way of making apps, rather than typing out java, which i dont understand anyways.
[11:27] <brobostigon> allows*
[11:28] <ali1234> brobostigon: i have a small list of apps that you can't make with it, or can't make easily...
[11:28] <ali1234> for example, try making a paint program
[11:28] <willy1977> that sounds pretty nifty
[11:28] <brobostigon> ali1234: elaborate. why ?
[11:29] <ali1234> try it and see
[11:29] <ali1234> basically if there isn't a widget that already does exactly what you want, you can't do it
[11:29] <brobostigon> ali1234: there is a tutorial for a paint pro ontheir site.
[11:29] <ali1234> link please
[11:29] <brobostigon> one minute.
[11:30] <brobostigon> http://appinventor.googlelabs.com/learn/tutorials/paintpot/paintpot-part1.html
[11:30] <brobostigon> i interpret that as a pain prog.
[11:30] <ali1234> cool
[11:31] <ali1234> so they have "DrawingCanvas" to handle it...
[11:32] <brobostigon> ali1234: i havent looked closely as to how it works.
[11:33] <ali1234> looks like it works in a fairly sensible way
[11:33] <ali1234> just connect the canvas.touched to the drawing function
[11:33] <ali1234> makes sense
[11:34] <brobostigon> ali1234: ok.
[11:37] <ali1234> of course, extending it with more interesting painting tools would be a challenge... like a blur/smudge tool for example
[11:43] <brobostigon> ali1234: soany ideas, of something fairly easy to start,i could challange,
[11:43] <ali1234> a spell checker?
[11:44] <ali1234> i tend to think if it's easy it's not worth doing
[11:45] <oimon> cool. playing with a polarising filter on my camera - i can turn it so that LCD screens are completely black on photos :)
[11:45] <brobostigon> ali1234: itend to think, to start my brain going, startwith something easier, and then toto something harder to challange it.
[11:48] <ali1234> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azVqekQBK8g
[11:53] <MartijnVdS> Whoa.. just came across a snake on lunch break
[11:54] <directhex> escaped from bronx zoo?
[11:55] <shauno> escaped from a nokia :/
[11:55] <MartijnVdS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_Snake
[11:55] <MartijnVdS> ^ one of those
[11:56] <shauno> funky
[11:56] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: Wuss that's not a big snake
[11:56] <shauno> all the grass I found in holland was in bags too small to fit a snake in :o)
[11:56] <MartijnVdS> http://t.co/BpPmdeg
[11:56] <MartijnVdS> ^ the snake
[11:57] <shauno> nice hat!
[11:57] <MartijnVdS> shauno: coworker hiding from other coworker's annoying questions :)
[11:58] <shauno> that works?!
[11:58] <MartijnVdS> shauno: only if you do it like that
[11:58] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: Nice
[11:58] <shauno> is the sunflower also necessary?
[11:58] <MartijnVdS> shauno: of course!
[11:59] <shauno> hm.  this could be difficult
[11:59] <willy1977> /Nhttp://t.co/BpPmdeg
[11:59] <MartijnVdS> willy1977: please try again :)
[12:00] <willy1977> doh
[12:01] <willy1977> nice looking beast...
[12:01] <DJones> 10:02 < oimon> probably the same ones who use pine still/
[12:01] <MartijnVdS> (for reference: the pavement tiles are 30x30cm)
[12:01] <DJones> grr, stupid putty
[12:02] <willy1977> DJones: definitely stupid putty just caught me out too :/
[12:06] <oimon> importing images using shotwell feels slower than fspot :S
[12:14] <Oli``> Very off-topic question: Does anybody know where I can get a standard UK tap - to - European tap converter? I've got a silly Gardena timer and the tap screw is like 7mm too wide for the tap and it didn't come with a step-up converter... I've tried searching but I don't have a clue what I should be asking google for
[12:14] <popey> Oli``: B&Q?
[12:14] <Oli``> popey: haven't tried them specifically but I did troll around a smaller garden centre for 20 minutes and everybody thought I was a bit mad
[12:16] <davmor2> Oli``: why not just get the right sized tap fitting and attach it directly to the hose?
[12:16] <Oli``> davmor2: it's not a hose, it's a watering timer. A little grey box that screws right onto the tap, I had a hozelock one but it died in the ice and was given this as a replacement
[12:17] <davmor2> Oli``: Ah I see
[12:18] <Oli``> This, essentially: http://pan.fotovista.com/dev/6/1/02728816/l_02728816.jpg
[12:18] <Oli``> Although ours doesn't have the dark grey adapter in the top of the lighter grey screw... That's the bit we need =(
[12:19] <popey> Oli``: plumbers merchants?
[12:19] <bigcalm> ScrewFix?
[12:19] <seeker> Duct tape?
[12:20] <bigcalm> Silly putty?
[12:20] <willy1977> how about searching for gardena spares uk ?
[12:20] <Oli``> Yeah I guess that's what it'll have to be: B&Q, Screwfix and then bodging it on with some high-tensile duct tape
[12:20] <willy1977> just looks like that grey thing should've come as part of the unit to me.
[12:21] <Oli``> willy1977: because that just makes too much sense
[12:21] <Oli``> Found one lol
[12:21] <Oli``> http://www.watering.co.uk/pack-of-2-threaded-adaptors-fits-top-of-timer-to-std-3-4-bsp-threaded-tap-924-p1302.html
[12:21] <willy1977> http://www.watering.co.uk/pack-of-2-threaded-adaptors-fits-top-of-timer-to-std-3-4-bsp-threaded-tap-924-p1302.html
[12:21] <Oli``> jinx
[12:21] <willy1977> oh for goodness sake...
[12:22] <willy1977> not quite Oli`` just my ham fisted-ness at work again.
[12:54] <X3N> really annoying when you find a patch that you want to use but is only in ubuntu :|
[12:56] <oimon> x3n which bug?
[12:57] <Accidental> Hi Paula from Fossbox said someone may be able to help me.  We have Ubuntu installed on our charity's computer and it worked well for a few weeks.  Now it won't boot automatically; instead we get the following page: GNU GRUB version 1.98 + 20100804-5ubuntu3 GNU GRUB version 1.98+20100802-5ubuntu3 Ubuntu, with Linux 2.6.35-22-generic Memory test (memtest86+) Memory test (memtest+, serial console 115200).  Can you advise?
[12:59] <ali1234> select Linux 2.6.35-22-generic and press enter
[12:59] <X3N> oimon: not a bug, ubuntu pataches gnome-settings-daemon to do it's own thing with the osd volume display, it would be useful if it was exposed in other distros
[13:04] <UndiFineD> Accidental, you could install the application startup-manager, which will let you tweak grub options and boot automatically again, perhaps waiting time is set to a high value
[13:05] <willy1977> X3N: I see, so you'd have to get the source from ubuntu's slice of gnome-settings-daemon and somehow wedge that into the other distro's version of gnome-settings-daemon - I guess?
[13:07] <willy1977> brb
[13:12] <Accidental> Please could you let me know how to install the application startup-manager; will it be obvious how to tweak the grub options?
[13:13] <X3N> Accidental: go to add/remove programs and search for startupmanager
[13:17] <Accidental> Unfortunately I'm not in front of the computer itself today (working from another place).
[13:18] <X3N> are you connected via ssh?
[13:19] <Accidental> Not sure what ssh is - I really am an 'accidental techie'...
[13:24] <daubers> Accidental: Where abouts is the charity based?
[13:27] <ging> oh i installed grub 2 from grub 1.5 and now it wont boot
[13:28] <ging> it chainloaded from grub 1.5 to grub 2 fine so i did the command to upgrade it and it still has grub 1.5 trying to boot and now failing
[13:31] <ging> i think i installed grub 2 to the wrong device
[13:35] <Accidental> We're in Islington off the Holloway Road.
[13:39] <X3N> Accidental: what does your charity do out of interest?
[13:40]  * ging mumbles about having to google his own solutions because everyone is out enjoying sunshine in pub gardens
[13:41] <brobostigon> ging: i am not, :(
[13:42] <ging> well i have to work tonight so i can't
[13:42] <brobostigon> :(
[13:45] <ging> might have a bbq on sunday
[13:45] <Accidental> supports children and adolescents who arrive as unaccompanied refugees who have had to leave their home country because of war,etc
[13:54] <ging> Accidental: i'm sure recent events will be keeping you busy for a while
[13:54] <MooDoo> cool emails should come to me then as well as i'm signed up tooalright all?
[13:54] <MooDoo> oops i meant
[13:54] <MooDoo> ALRIGHT ALL :)
[13:58] <MooDoo> czajkowski: how's the back today?
[13:58] <Accidental> Yes, increasingly busy
[13:59] <davmor2> MooDoo: I asked that one earlier,  she'll be as annoying as ever next week she says \o/
[13:59] <MooDoo> davmor2: yay let's see if we can break her :)
[14:00] <AlanBell> no breaking czajkowski until after the 15th
[14:00] <davmor2> MooDoo: lets not hey, week after she'll be fighting fit
[14:00] <MooDoo> okey :) 15th sounds good :) that's my birthday :D
[14:04]  * daubers goes on holiday on the 15th \o/
[14:04] <daubers> On a seperate topic... how many charities are we aware of that use Ubuntu in the UK? And should we as a team be trying to support them in a more organised manner?
[14:04] <daubers> should qualify that as small charities
[14:06] <AlanBell> there is an #ubuntu-ngo team and channel (not very active)
[14:07] <daubers> Any idea who is the lead in that team?
[14:08] <DJones> daubers: In the past when I went out to charity clients, they were all using windows for internal systems, most of them used some sort of proprietry software to manage their database & committed donations from the public
[14:09] <DJones> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ngo
[14:10]  * DJones notes that the wiki says "talk to Laura or Daniel", could that be a Laura cz[tab]
[14:11] <daubers> I was more contemplating the idea of if there was a (small) charity who needed some help with Ubuntu machines, could we as a group provide them with people/resources/what ever to help/train/advise their support people? Or would we be treading on toes by doing so
[14:11] <AlanBell> DJones: it is
[14:12] <ali1234> any time you give out free advice you're treading on someone's toes
[14:12] <AlanBell> charities have complicated accounting requirements
[14:12] <AlanBell> ringfenced funds all over the place
[14:12] <daubers> AlanBell: Thats kinda why I dictates "small" :)
[14:13] <AlanBell> size doesn't matter
[14:13] <AlanBell> (or so they say)
[14:13] <MooDoo> haven't been into the ngo channel in ages
[14:13] <AlanBell> even small charities get grants for things
[14:13] <AlanBell> or donations for things
[14:13] <AlanBell> and they have to account for the right bit of money being spent on the right stuff
[14:13] <daubers> AlanBell: You say that, but having done some work for a couple of big charities, and some stuff for some smaller one, the smaller ones care more about getting stuff done, while the bigger ones care more on the paperworky stuff :)
[14:14] <daubers> AlanBell: Didn't say anything on spending money. Was more of a thing on a volunteer basis
[14:14] <AlanBell> sorry, yes, I agree
[14:14] <DJones> Plus from the ones I've dealt with, MS seem to have quite a hold on them in that they get heavily discounted software eg MS Office for £10
[14:15] <AlanBell> I proposed a project some time ago to do a chart of accounts for gnucash for small charities, but there was little interest in doing it
[14:15] <daubers> Just something like Accidental's issue. If someone was around Islington and could pop in for half an hour over lunch to give some advice kinda thing
[14:15] <oimon> +1
[14:16] <ali1234> that pretty much means anyone in london...
[14:16] <AlanBell> yeah, there is a lot of cheap software pumped into the charitable sector so that proprietary companies can account for it as corporate social responsibility
[14:16] <ali1234> (i've been, they have trains)
[14:16] <daubers> ali1234: Takes about an hour and a half for me to get there :p
[14:16] <ali1234> it takes an hour and a half to get between any two points in london
[14:16] <DJones> I would say the ones that provide computers/access to computers for people could well be interested though, they'd presumably be interested as ubuntu/linux software would be free, they'd probably be installing on donated equipment etc
[14:17] <daubers> DJones: Those are the people we'd be able to help more
[14:20] <daubers> An interesting thing to ponder on for a little while anyway
[14:24] <ging> ah i dont get it i've proper screwed up my laptop by installing grub2
[14:25] <ali1234> why did you install grub2?
[14:25] <ali1234> more omportantly, why didn't you already have it?
[14:27] <ging> ali1234: well i had upgraded several times so i was still on old grub
[14:28] <oimon> is it considered bad taste to take photos in a graveyard?
[14:29] <ging> oimon: depends on the photos
[14:29] <oimon> shots of pretty bluebells among the gravestones
[14:29] <ging> no
[14:29] <oimon> i wonder if people would be offended by that
[14:30] <ali1234> a photo of you pointing at the tombstones and laughing is probably bad taste
[14:30] <oimon> i was also fully clothed :)
[14:30] <ging> it would be bad taste if the bluebells were replaced with girls with a lot of exposed flesh
[14:30] <DJones> oimon: Is the graveyard attached to a church or seperate from a specific church
[14:31] <oimon> separate and unused in over 100 yrs.
[14:31] <ali1234> dressing like a zombie is also not a good idea
[14:31] <oimon> i already took the photos
[14:32] <oimon> although i always feel conspicous when taking photos of everyday objects
[14:32] <oimon> like patterns on things...people give you weird looks
[14:32] <DJones> oimon: I would think that as long they were tasteful shouldn't be a problem, if its photo's of a bring a spade party.... maybe not
[14:32] <ali1234> take a photo of them giving you a funny look
[14:33] <popey> take a photo of them punching you in the face
[14:33] <ali1234> make a photoblog out of it
[14:33] <ali1234> even better
[14:33] <shauno> I think with almost anything in a graveyard, it's not what you're doing, but how you do it.
[14:33] <ali1234> i would read that blog
[14:34] <oimon> ali1234: a photoblog of photos taken while punching people? i would read that too
[14:34] <shauno> if you're quiet and respectful, you're already way ahead of 99% of the disasters we see in public :)
[14:34] <ali1234> http://www.brendanhughes.com/pictures-of-people-punching-me-in-the-face
[14:35] <oimon> i don't believe it!
[14:36] <popey> haha, brilliant
[14:37] <oimon> goes to show, someone somewhere has already done whatever you are thinking of, it just has to be marketed right
[14:38] <oimon> not the best pics because i was rushing, but it's a beautiful sight irl https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/5RngH0JYp_ulO6Kyo6Hhe2KtutltVwpUXNnARE5AE8M?feat=directlink
[14:39] <AlanBell> my oggcamp mug has sprung a leak
[14:39] <davmor2> AlanBell: you weren't meant to use it
[14:39] <popey> oh noes
[14:39]  * AlanBell wants a refund
[14:39] <popey> you aren't meant to use it to hammer nails in
[14:41] <bigcalm> You weren't meant to use it for cake
[14:41] <AlanBell> there is a tiny chip on the inside
[14:41] <popey> heh
[14:41] <AlanBell> yeah, it is the one I made cake in
[14:41] <bigcalm> AlanBell: araldite
[14:41] <ging> is there a way to boot from a live cd then use apt-get from there but to point it at the local harddrive to add/remove packages?
[14:41] <davmor2> AlanBell: Sure you need to take depreciation into account so by now .....carry the one.........collectors item......carry 3.......you'll owe them around a £5
[14:42] <ali1234> ging: yes
[14:42] <AlanBell> coffee has seeped through and comes out of the glaze on the outside
[14:42] <daubers> AlanBell: At least you can get a new one soon-ish :)
[14:42] <DJones> If it wasn't so late in cycle, I'd be tempted to get a mug thats for sale in the shop next door with Meerkats on it
[14:42] <AlanBell> daubers: good point
[14:42] <AlanBell> so popey, when exactly do I get a new one?
[14:42] <popey> when:-
[14:42] <popey> a) they are designed
[14:42] <popey> b) they are made & shipped
[14:42] <popey> c) you pay for them
[14:43] <bigcalm> Pay?
[14:43] <AlanBell> so no date yet then!
[14:43] <exobuzz> does anyone know if the locked top panel on ubuntu natty with unity, is something that is planned to be fixed, - i mean if unity is to be default, it seems a bit of an oversight to not allow people to add their own applets
[14:43] <popey> the panel isnt for applets
[14:43] <ali1234> exobuzz: it's not planned to be "fixed"
[14:44] <exobuzz> where should i put my time tracker applet then? :)
[14:44] <oimon> hamster?
[14:44] <exobuzz> yeh
[14:44] <ali1234> exobuzz: rewrite it to use indicators
[14:44] <exobuzz> ugh
[14:44]  * exobuzz uninstall ubuntu
[14:44] <oimon> exobuzz: hold on 2 secs...
[14:44] <ali1234> exobuzz: switch to classic
[14:45] <oimon> saw a blog post the other day about hasmter
[14:45] <exobuzz> yeh i know, i was trying really trying to like unity
[14:45] <Laney> is there a cross-DE solution for that kind of thing?
[14:45] <popey> bug 686062
[14:45] <oimon> http://albertomilone.com/wordpress/?p=502
[14:45] <ali1234> Laney: if by "cross-desktop" you mean "works on gnome, kde, xfce, lxde", then yes
[14:46] <exobuzz> thanks.
[14:47] <exobuzz> i got a feeling users are not going to like this.
[14:47] <ali1234> heh.
[14:47] <exobuzz> the beta  reviews haven't been good - at least the ones i bumped into
[14:48] <popey> I have only seen one
[14:48] <exobuzz> i saw two
[14:48] <ali1234> i haven't bothered to read any because i already know i don't like it
[14:48] <exobuzz> the register and one other one.
[14:48] <brobostigon> i tend not trust reviews, i tend to like to try stuff myself, andmake my own judgement.
[14:48] <exobuzz> yeh and i installed ubuntu
[14:48] <exobuzz> and i don't like it ;-)
[14:49] <ali1234> "worst ubuntu beta ever" - the register. lol
[14:49] <HazRPG> my ubuntu swag has been sent \o/
[14:50] <oimon> i like the fact that we get a public holiday for the release of natty
[14:50] <davmor2> ali1234: why?
[14:50] <HazRPG> meerkat tee + hoody on its way :)
[14:50] <ali1234> davmor2: i dunno, read the review
[14:50] <HazRPG> oimon: we do?
[14:50] <oimon> yeah
[14:50] <popey> pffft, meerkats are so last year
[14:50] <HazRPG> *\o/*
[14:50] <davmor2> ali1234: I meant why do you know you don't like it?
[14:50] <ali1234> davmor2: oh. because i tried it
[14:50] <exobuzz> regarding applets, users are not going to care if there is a new better system, they just want their stuff to work.
[14:51] <oimon> HazRPG: actually it's the day after release, 29th april
[14:51] <davmor2> ali1234: I didn't think I'd like it buat now I can't get used to using this box (maverick)
[14:51] <HazRPG> popey: still one of my favourite builds so far along with koala and jackalope
[14:52] <ali1234> davmor2: i don't like global menus, i don't like docks, i don't like the start menu
[14:52] <ali1234> i pretty much don't like anything about it
[14:52] <ali1234> i also don't like buttons on the left
[14:52] <ali1234> i don't even like the new themes
[14:52] <exobuzz> i dont like the global menus on my highres computer, i like em on a 800x480 machine - showing that you cant always do something for everything
[14:53] <ging> oh i think i've just wiped my hard drive
[14:53] <ging> stupid ext4
[14:53] <HazRPG> erm... don't know who started it, but well my argument is that some of the people I've converted are only *just* getting to grips with the layout of gnome2... introducing them to natty is going to be a living nightmare for me
[14:53] <exobuzz> ali1234, might be quicker to list what you do like :) hehe
[14:53] <ali1234> exobuzz: i don't like *any* of it
[14:54] <exobuzz> ali1234, i like slightly more than you, but not much
[14:54] <ali1234> i don't like how the dock autohides either
[14:54] <oimon> ali1234: this is why i need a dock: http://i.imgur.com/zChuy.png
[14:54] <exobuzz> you can control the autohide from compiz config which isnt installed by default ;-)
[14:54] <ali1234> i don't like that you can only have 1 dock
[14:54] <ali1234> and i don't like that it has to be on the left hand side
[14:55] <dogmatic69> oimon: you running one of them windows viruses?
[14:55] <HazRPG> oimon: holy cow and I thought I was bad!
[14:55] <oimon> what?
[14:55] <exobuzz> at least they didnt remove classic mode - if they really plan to do that for the next release, then ..
[14:55] <HazRPG> oimon: is that how many apps you have open?!
[14:55] <oimon> i just use lots of applications at once
[14:55] <oimon> yes
[14:55] <HazRPG> woahhh
[14:55] <ali1234> oimon: see there's two problems there: firstly, you have crammed the taskbar into the same panel as the menu and tray, and secondly, you're not using the virtual desktops
[14:55] <HazRPG> oimon: that's what my chrome browser looks like most days :P
[14:56] <ali1234> unity won't make things any better for you
[14:56] <oimon> i have 90 windows showing in alt-tab
[14:56] <exobuzz> look like you need grouped tasks or so
[14:56] <daubers> ali1234: I love the dock autohide! Had me amused for weeks!!
[14:56] <oimon> ali1234: i use docky
[14:56] <davmor2> ali1234: the theme is the same one as in lucid and maverick, the backdrop is pretty much identical to mavericks, they got rid of one bar at the bottom and made it autohide on the side, not sure I see the issue?
[14:56] <ali1234> davmor2: yeah i didn't like those themes in maverick or lucid either
[14:56] <ali1234> davmor2: i still use human theme
[14:56] <davmor2> ali1234: you know you can change them right?
[14:57] <ali1234> davmor2: to human theme, yes
[14:57] <ali1234> but you can't change the theme of the dock
[14:57] <oimon> docky reduces all my windows to this: http://i.imgur.com/995ga.png
[14:57]  * brobostigon is happy with with gnome3/gnome-shell, endof;
[14:57] <exobuzz> i was using linux mint, but i dislike that users have little way apart from the forum to feeding bugs back, and further route upstream. i do like the simple layout though. but at least ubuntu has a bugtracker i can write on (of course they will be mostly ignored but) ;-)
[14:58] <ali1234> davmor2: they also remvoed all the functionality of the top panel that i use and replaced it with inferior versions: start menu, and systray -> indicator
[14:58] <ali1234> so now the top pael might as well not even be there
[14:58] <oimon> ali1234: i agree with a lot of what you are saying. i am just hoping unity will improve gradually
[14:58] <oimon> i am seeing signs that it is improving
[14:58] <ali1234> oimon: you mean like empathy did? (lol)
[14:58] <davmor2> ali1234: but that is the same in gnome 3 only more so
[14:58] <oimon> and hacks can move buttons and docs and launchers etc
[14:59] <exobuzz> personally i think if you are doing "experiments" it should be optional until its truly ready
[14:59] <exobuzz> it still feels like an experiment to me
[14:59] <ali1234> davmor2: yup i hate gnome-shell too
[14:59] <davmor2> ali1234: so don't use them go with something else
[14:59] <HazRPG> davmor2: the argument that the bottom bar is now the left auto-hide *thing* is invalid... because a) you can see your virtual spaces just at a glance on the bottom; b) the applications running per screen (ali1234, thanks for that tip btw :)); and c) a show desktop icon if needed... you can even add more stuff if needs be down there
[14:59] <oimon> gnome shell is a tablet DE
[14:59] <ali1234> for months now i've been saying that the only good thing about unity is "at least it's not gnome-shell"
[14:59] <oimon> (IMHO)
[14:59] <exobuzz> brb - switching to ubuntu classic - need my applets
[15:00] <HazRPG> oimon: so is unity in all fairness
[15:00] <ali1234> HazRPG: unity not usable on a tablet due to it's overuse of mouseover to unhide things
[15:00] <ali1234> (that's another thing i don't like about it)
[15:00] <hamitron> why is it changing if so many hate it? :/
[15:00] <oimon> HazRPG: but more hackable i think, and mark seems to agree on any cool plugin/feature that is suggested , within reason
[15:00] <HazRPG> ali1234: I guess, but you could stop it auto-hiding
[15:00] <ali1234> hamitron: because ubuntu is not a democracy
[15:01] <oimon> ali1234: unity requires too much keyboard input - more than gnome classic
[15:01] <ging> ali1234: how do i use the live cd to modify the packages installed on my hdd then i can't figure it out
[15:01] <ali1234> ging: you boot up and then chroot into the harddrive root filesystem then use it like normal
[15:01] <ali1234> !chroot
[15:01] <hamitron> ali1234: neither are many companies, but it still makes sense to try to provide what people want
[15:01] <ali1234> hmm that's not really what i expected
[15:02] <brobostigon> oimon: the less i have to use my mouse the better, it wastes alot of time moving my hands around, so the more natural keyboard controls the better.
[15:02] <HazRPG> brobostigon: I guess... but well your more likely to suffer RSI over-using the keyboard too
[15:03] <hamitron> brobostigon: putting your greasy paws on the screen and having to clean it each day, is the way forward ofc ;)
[15:03] <davmor2> HazRPG: It was an analogy rather than an exact duplication.  I actually prefer the zoom out approach as it means you can actually see what is going on in each desktop, per application is still in place and show desktop is a shortcut for minimise all iirc
[15:03] <oimon> exobuzz: do you know it is possible to whitelist apps that require the systray
[15:03] <brobostigon> HazRPG: maybe, but, i prefer my keyboard, :)
[15:03] <brobostigon> hamitron: i hope not, :(
[15:03] <exobuzz> oimon, how do you mean ?
[15:04] <ali1234> hamitron: all tech companies today want to be "social"
[15:04] <oimon> exobuzz: if you want to use an app in natty, but the icon does not appear in systray, you can whitelist it to appear there
[15:04] <ali1234> hamitron: look at the google +1 stuff
[15:04] <HazRPG> davmor2: yeah it is, erm, I thought that's what mod4+e was?
[15:04] <exobuzz> oimon, it's an applet issue not a systray issue
[15:04] <ali1234> hamitron: it's insane, it might even hurt them quite badly
[15:04] <exobuzz> oimon, i need to use an applet. hence i just switched to classic mode
[15:04] <hamitron> +1?
[15:04] <ging> ali1234: so i just do "sudo chroot /media/something/ apt-get" and it'll work like it was running on the installed copy ? or do i need to use a pipe or something?
[15:05] <HazRPG> davmor2: mod4+e shows you all workspaces in much the same way, and that's been there since compiz's inclusion into it
[15:05] <ali1234> users flocked to google precisely because it wasn't loaded down with the usual webportal crap that all the other sites had
[15:05] <hamitron> meh, I think I have it easier burrying my head in the sand
[15:05] <ali1234> but now somebody decided that actually what google needs to do is... fill their site with social content! (which is just the new equivalent of web portal crap)
[15:06] <ali1234> the me menu is borne of the same silliness
[15:06] <davmor2> HazRPG: and I love the ctrl+alt+t for a terminal
[15:06] <HazRPG> davmor2: I changed that to mod4+t ;)
[15:06] <ali1234> ging: no not really, not like that at all
[15:06] <oimon> ali1234: I never , ever use the memenu
[15:06] <HazRPG> davmor2: that way I can do it with one hand rather then 2
[15:07] <hamitron> I liked it when the web served you content, and the users job was to read ;)
[15:07] <HazRPG> davmor2: since I can't see a natural way of doing ctrl+alt+t without fumbling my hands around
[15:07] <ali1234> oimon: i removed the whole thing from my panel... can't do that on unity though
[15:07] <davmor2> HazRPG: I do it with one hand anyway, maybe I have large hands :D
[15:07] <HazRPG> davmor2: although ctrl+alt+t has been around for a while too if I recall though
[15:08] <exobuzz> HazRPG, its easy if you have a forefinger twice as long as other fingers
[15:08] <HazRPG> or maybe its just always the first thing I do on each fresh install :P
[15:08] <HazRPG> I use mod4 for a lot of things, because well its an unused key most of the time
[15:09] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: Mod4? Winkey?
[15:09] <davmor2> HazRPG: Never knew about it till I read askubuntu unity keyboard and mouse shortcuts
[15:09] <exobuzz> large hands..
[15:09] <HazRPG> mod4+left OR right, and that skips my music, mod4 up = play/pause, mod4 down = stop, mod4+home/end = vol up/down, mod4+del = mute
[15:10] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: yeah winkey
[15:10] <HazRPG> davmor2: I always look under keyboard shortcuts to see what changes has happened, and to see what I can configure
[15:10] <davmor2> ali1234: what are you going to use instead of gnome/unity then are you moving to XFCE?
[15:10] <ali1234> davmor2: i'm going to use gnome classic
[15:11] <ali1234> davmor2: and i'm going to configure it to look like karmic, the last version of ubuntu that worked properly ootb
[15:11] <oimon> i will probably use gnome classic too and then assess the unity situation in 11.10
[15:11] <HazRPG> I also have mod4+f1 to f4 for usual apps :)
[15:11] <oimon> woops, looks like hazrpg did an alt-f4
[15:11] <ali1234> alt-f4 turns on god mode!
[15:12] <oimon> did you know that you password appears as ******* when you type it in irc :P
[15:12] <MartijnVdS> haz needs to use screen with his irssi :)
[15:12] <davmor2> ali1234: and what you going to do in 11.10?  no classic mode there
[15:12] <HazRPG> grr, don't know what happened there
[15:12] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: screen, then irssi
[15:12] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: not irssi in a terminal :)
[15:12] <ali1234> davmor2: yeah right
[15:12] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: Alt+F4 vs Mod4+F4
[15:12] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: byobu :)
[15:12] <ali1234> davmor2: 11.10 isn't even specced yet
[15:13] <davmor2> ali1234: no seriously!  It's already been announced
[15:13] <HazRPG> oimon: who's password? what?
[15:13] <ali1234> davmor2: i don't see how it's possible to remove classic mode
[15:13] <ali1234> davmor2: are they going to specifically prevent me from installing gnome panel? remove gtk+2 maybe?
[15:13] <oimon> HazRPG: http://www.bash.org/?244321
[15:13] <davmor2> ali1234: unity 2d instead
[15:14] <HazRPG> oimon: bah! lol
[15:14] <ali1234> davmor2: classic isn't something made by canonical, it's part of gnome
[15:14] <popey> it wont be on the cd i think davmor2 means
[15:14] <popey> so you wont get that session option
[15:14] <ali1234> big deal, half the programs i use now aren't on the CD
[15:14] <popey> sure, I'm just clarifying
[15:14] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: its not irssi that closed the channel, it was pidgin :/
[15:14] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: use irssi! drop pidgin!
[15:14] <hamitron> ubuntu as a collection of software is moving further away from what I want each time, but still a good base to work on :)
[15:15] <MartijnVdS> hamitron: Xubuntu \o/
[15:15] <davmor2> popey: no for 11.10 I think gnome 3 will be in the repos and unity no classic gnome full stop
[15:15] <ali1234> gnome 3 includes classic mode
[15:15] <hamitron> xfce is not great either ;/
[15:15] <popey> meh
[15:15] <popey> its not decided fully yet
[15:15] <hamitron> lxde <3
[15:15] <popey> given they haven't even decided fully if 11.04 is going to have unity by default, what 11.10 will have by default is well open
[15:15] <davmor2> popey: nope but it'll be a fun UDS for sure
[15:16] <popey> for some
[15:16] <ali1234> for the trolls :)
[15:16] <MartijnVdS> popey: that mailing list thread you linked to this morning is all "OH WOW UNITY IS SO GREAT"
[15:16] <davmor2> popey: I'm only there cause we happen to have a sprint at the same time :)
[15:16] <MartijnVdS> I can't be the only hater ;)
[15:16] <ali1234> MartijnVdS: the thread on sounders is exactly the opposite
[15:17] <ali1234> at least it was until it degenerated into an argument about the middle east
[15:17] <hamitron> is there probably gonna be a Gubuntu for vanilla Gnome?
[15:17] <DJones> Is sounder still going, I thought it had been closed down last year
[15:18] <willy1977> whilst I don't have much exp. with classic I find unity confusing and those global menus are not there when I need them... I switched to "classic" as I find that more intuitive... but I'll have to keep trying I guess.
[15:18] <brobostigon> hamitron: venilla gnome now, is gnome3.
[15:18] <popey> DJones: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016351.html
[15:18] <HazRPG> hamitron: I hope so!
[15:18] <HazRPG> hamitron: if not, I think we should make it so!
[15:19] <oimon> isn't it concerning that so many hardcore ubuntu users are worried about whether they can use it in future?
[15:19] <popey> dunno, is it?
[15:19] <HazRPG> oimon: I'd say it was!
[15:19] <DJones> popey: I seem to remember a similar mail/meeting last year with sabdfl getting involved
[15:19] <hamitron> if there are enough who want it, there will be enough to make it exist
[15:19] <popey> yup DJones
[15:19] <popey> I actually argued with sabdfl that sounder should _not_ be shutdown
[15:20] <ali1234> popey: u mad cos of david gerard?
[15:20] <HazRPG> but I have a feeling canonical is trying to span out more users... however I feel this is a BAD way of doing so.
[15:20] <popey> ali1234: apparently
[15:20] <brobostigon> hamitron: i agree, i would want an ubuntu remix asentially, with pure gnome3, and and not having to ass it seperatly.
[15:20] <hamitron> "span out"?
[15:20] <brobostigon> add*
[15:20] <DJones> popey: Maybe suggest handing the sounder ML over to #defocus admins
[15:21] <HazRPG> hamitron: well reach a bigger user base
[15:21] <ali1234> if anything that list serves the purpose of keeping most of the trolling in one place :)
[15:21] <HazRPG> hamitron: try and tab the tablet market
[15:21] <popey> ali1234: that is a point of view expressed by many :)
[15:21] <ali1234> and i only see "most" because i don't post there
[15:21] <HazRPG> hamitron: so that it gets preinstalled as standard with more manufacturers, but this is just speculation on my part
[15:21] <ali1234> *say
[15:22] <hamitron> HazRPG: there is nothing wrong with expanding, and changing things to do so, but always a good idea to try not to isolate the original audience
[15:23] <HazRPG> hamitron: bingo!
[15:23] <HazRPG> hamitron: my argument exactly
[15:23] <HazRPG> hamitron: personally, I don't think it would hurt at liveCD/install time to ask if you want gnome2 or unity
[15:23] <HazRPG> if CD space is too much trouble
[15:24] <HazRPG> have gnome2 a download option at install  time (much like it does with updates on install)
[15:24] <ali1234> there's the alternate CD for that stuff
[15:24] <hamitron> I don't see it much of an issue, just install cli or alt cd
[15:24] <oimon> popey: they should just rename the sounder list to trollfarm and leave it at that
[15:24] <brobostigon> HazRPG: unity, gnome2, or gnome3. :)
[15:24] <hamitron> or kde
[15:24] <hamitron> or xfce
[15:24] <hamitron> or lxde
[15:25] <hamitron> or fluxbox, etc (I'll stop now)
[15:25] <brobostigon> hamitron: xubuntu- kubuntu- lubuntu, :)
[15:25] <HazRPG> hamitron: heh taking it too far...
[15:25] <ali1234> what about... fvwm96
[15:25] <oimon> i know people that still use fvwm
[15:26] <hamitron> the 1 problem I have.... they seem to be hiding the more advanced installation options from the front page
[15:26] <HazRPG> hamitron: ubuntu as a thing is gnome/debian based distro with a reasonable release cycle... its why we like it so much
[15:26] <brobostigon> if gnome should be an option next to unity, then justas much, so should gnome3,
[15:26] <HazRPG> hamitron: however if they want it to have unity, give users the option... the liveCD already gives you the option at start if you want to boot to the liveCD or to the LiveInstall
[15:27] <hamitron> I had to use google to find the mini.iso!
[15:27] <ali1234> just... no
[15:27] <popey> !mini
[15:27] <shauno> I still wanna know how they stuffed up the global menu so badly :/
[15:27] <hamitron> popey: stop wrecking my arguements plz, ty ;)
[15:27] <popey> np
[15:27] <ali1234> !pxe
[15:27] <popey> :(
[15:27] <hamitron> !netboot
[15:27] <popey> that needs a factoid
[15:28] <HazRPG> hamitron: in all fairness ya should have tried the factoid in the first place :P
[15:28] <popey> ahhh
[15:28] <popey> \o/
[15:28] <popey> hamitron: its a draw
[15:28] <hamitron> !pxe would be better
[15:28] <ali1234> that factoid isn't that helpful
[15:28] <ali1234> it doesn't tell me where to get the pxe bootfiles
[15:28] <popey> !automate
[15:29] <davmor2> hamitron: Why the cd image is called netboot?
[15:29] <popey> feel free to improve it :)
[15:29] <ali1234> that has nothing to do with pxe?
[15:29] <hamitron> but I still don't like the ubuntu.com webpage, hiding everything
[15:29] <ali1234> the real instructions are here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PXEInstallServer
[15:29] <ging> yay i have grub back and i didnt wipe my hdd
[15:30] <shauno> \o/
[15:30] <ging> that was a stessful hour
[15:30] <ali1234> but even that tells you to get the files from the CD... but i know they're on the archives somewhere
[15:32] <ali1234> ok i eventually found them: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/
[15:33] <ging> i can't wait till they bring out grub 3
[15:33] <hamitron> ali1234: it is maybe because there is so much information to look through, with ubuntu doing a very good job at everything?
[15:34] <ali1234> hamitron: no, it's because there's too much documentation and not enough getting to the point
[15:34] <hamitron> ali1234: yeh, maybe :)
[15:39] <shauno> heh, I hate clients that send parts instead of just disconnecting :/
[15:39] <HazRPG> agreed
[15:39] <HazRPG> what is a part anyways?
[15:40] <shauno>  /part
[15:40] <shauno> it's how you leave a room :o)
[15:40] <willy1977> leaves just that channel doesn't it ;)
[15:40] <HazRPG> i thought that was what /leave was for
[15:40] <shauno> that's what's messing with the proxy.  some clients will just disconnect, some get funny about cleaning up their windows
[15:40] <brobostigon> HazRPG: i use /wc
[15:41] <HazRPG> heh
[15:42] <HazRPG> I must say I do really like irssi proxy
[15:42] <HazRPG> I've got my phone hooked up now too :)
[15:42] <brobostigon> me too,
[15:42] <gord> irssi proxy ended up just getting in the way for me, switched to znc
[15:42] <gord> much nicer
[15:43] <shauno> I tend to have irssi going most the time anyway.  it's what I connect from work with, etc
[15:43] <shauno> so I just leave it there and attach a gui to it when I get home :)
[15:44] <gord> yeah, it wasn't long after i switched away from irssi-proxy that i stopped using irssi entirely
[15:44] <HazRPG> i think i'd probably confuse too many people if i ever showed them irssi
[15:46] <willy1977> i've only just started using irssi - seems pretty cool... nice and simple-ish
[15:47] <willy1977> it can probably do loads more than I've got anywhere near yet of course :D
[15:47] <hamitron> I use pidgin
[15:47] <hamitron> ;)
[15:48] <hamitron> omg, late for a cup of tea
[15:48] <hamitron> brb, tea and cakes \o/
[15:49] <xwx> hello。
[15:50] <willy1977> hello
[15:50] <Azelphur> hello
[15:57] <HazRPG> hamitron: I had a vision of you running to the kitchen with your arms in the air because of the \o/ lol
[16:02] <hamitron> HazRPG: it is certainly how I felt :)
[16:05] <exobuzz> cake!!
[16:06] <exobuzz> is anyone else finding this warm summer like weather is making them drink more beer ?
[16:06] <bigcalm> Ale \o/
[16:06]  * dogmatic69 ++
[16:06] <davmor2> someone say cake
[16:06] <bigcalm> c4k3
[16:06] <dutchie> exobuzz: you say that like it is a bproblem
[16:06] <davmor2> wow l33t cake
[16:06] <exobuzz> dutchie, hehe
[16:07] <exobuzz> dutchie, it can be ;-)
[16:07] <hamitron> it certainly encourages me to drink more tea, compared to coffee
[16:08] <hamitron> the transcoding performance of my i3 is disappointing
[16:09] <hamitron> was expecting more compared to be budget c2d
[16:27] <DJones> hamitron: i3? which one did you get
[16:28] <hamitron> i3-550 3.2ghz I think
[16:28] <hamitron> yeh
[16:28] <DJones> right, I've just got an i3 350M
[16:29] <hamitron> I'm finding it good for gaming
[16:29] <DJones> retired my old 8100 :)
[16:29] <hamitron> omg!
[16:29] <hamitron> what you done/doing with it?
[16:30] <DJones> Not sure yet, may stick lubuntu on it to see how it works & keep it for a while
[16:30] <hamitron> I'm still using mine
[16:30] <DJones> Although I've now got 3 old/oldish laptops sat doing nothing
[16:31] <hamitron> LXDE runs sweet I find
[16:31] <hamitron> tbh, my 8100 with lxde, runs better than my c2d with XP on
[16:32] <hamitron> ;)
[16:32] <DJones> Heh
[16:32] <oimon> c2d?
[16:32] <hamitron> core2 duo
[16:32] <oimon> ah:P
[16:32] <hamitron> it is only 2.2ghz though
[16:33] <hamitron> having said that, the p3 is only 1.2ghz
[16:33] <DJones> hamitron: p3? Is that the 8100, Mine was an Athalon
[16:34] <hamitron> DJones: laptop?
[16:34] <DJones> Yep
[16:34] <DJones> At least I think it was
[16:34] <hamitron> I'm sure
[16:34] <DJones> Might be getting mixed up with my old desktop
[16:35] <hamitron> my Inspiron 8100 has a 1.2ghz p3, and the latitude c810 has a 1.13ghz
[16:36] <hamitron> I remember they came with both nvidia and ati cards
[16:36] <hamitron> at the time I had to have the top nvidia one, even though the ati had 64mb memory :) nvidia drivers existed \o/
[16:37] <hamitron> I sort of worshiped the dell laptops that year, while choosing which to get :/
[16:38] <DJones> hamitron: I was the same, spent weeks picking out the best of the best
[16:38] <hamitron> I spent 4 months
[16:38] <hamitron> :D
[16:38] <oimon> i got sent an audit questionnaire for our impending microsoftisation - asking for packages we use..i am sending rpm -qa > packages.txt
[16:38] <hamitron> my first dell sales rep hung up on me after getting sick of me
[16:39] <DJones> Decided since I was paying £2.5K, I wanted to get the most, latest, up to date, longest life etc
[16:39] <hamitron> yeh
[16:40] <DJones> I must dig out my old copy of Deus Ex and try it on this new laptop and see how it goes, it went quickly on the 8100
[16:40] <hamitron> I'm playing with the idea of getting 2 more
[16:40] <hamitron> we have a round table in the kitchen now, could be good with 4 laptops for some multiplayer gaming
[16:41] <shauno> Is this normal ?   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23042/Screen%20shot%202011-04-08%20at%2016.39.06.png
[16:41] <hamitron> old C&C or starcraft
[16:41] <popey> shauno: bug innit
[16:42] <DJones> hamitron: You could play "hearts" on winxp between the four laptops
[16:42] <kazade> popey, where's the bug?
[16:42] <hamitron> DJones: haha
[16:42] <kazade> You mean "File ma" ?
[16:42] <shauno> that's what I mean, atleast
[16:42] <kazade> shauno, it's by design...
[16:43] <shauno> seriously?
[16:43] <kazade> yeah, like 90% sure
[16:44]  * shauno boggles
[16:44] <hamitron> !rtorrent
[16:44] <hamitron> !torrent
[16:45] <shauno> this isn't just aversity to change.  I've been using a mac as my main machine for 6 years.  a global menu bar isn't change.
[16:45] <shauno> there is absolutely nothing about that thing that's right
[16:46] <kazade> heh
[16:46] <shauno> if I had to narrow it down to anything in specific, it's existance is probably a bug.
[16:47] <shauno> the dock actually doesn't bother me.  I haven't found a pattern to when it thinks it should be on screen or not, but that's probably down to being used to another dock
[16:48] <shauno> but I think kde's implementation of a global menu bar beat that thing 10 years ago.
[16:51] <shauno> that can't be intentional.  the 'file ma' label should be aligned to the same position it is when the windows is maximized.
[16:52] <kazade> shauno, does the label move when the menu is shown then?
[16:52] <shauno> yes.  the window controls (Traffic lights) move to where 'file ma' is, and 'file ma' shifts to the right
[16:53] <shauno> so when the menu autohides (I won't get into mystery meat navigation right now) it doesn't look like it was created by someone who's never seen a global menu before
[16:53] <shauno> but when it's windows, the text label goes back to where the traffic lights were.
[16:53] <shauno> uff, *windowed
[16:55] <kazade> hmm, I dunno then, that could be a bug
[16:55] <kazade> I know the overlapping label/menu isn't
[16:55] <kazade> it's supposed to appear awkwardly over the end of the label (I think this is partly what MPT complained about a little while ago)
[16:56] <shauno> that's what I can't get straight in my head
[16:56] <shauno> "it's meant to be awkward"
[16:57] <kazade> heh, I know shauno, don't even get me started ;)
[16:57] <shauno> if they're going to autohide over the top of it (which they really, really shouldn't), they should atleast be consistent about it
[16:57] <kazade> well, really, they shouldn't be hiding it at all...
[16:58] <kazade> god knows how touch screens are gonna work with that..
[16:58] <shauno> that label is my only point of reference for where the thing that I want to click on but can't see is.  don't move the only point of reference I've got left.
[16:58] <kazade> shauno, https://twitter.com/#!/jonobacon/status/56385297189056512
[16:59] <shauno> 'file' appearing over the start of the text label is about the only shred of muscle memory that leaves intact.  so they move the label.  gah.
[17:03] <ubuntu> popey: hi
[17:05] <ubuntu> I was trying to install 10.10 on USB
[17:06] <ubuntu> kaushal here
[17:06] <kaushal> hi
[17:06] <shauno> sorry, that wasn't meant to be a rant.  I thought I hadn't managed to apply the default settings properly.  I wasn't expecting "oh, we know".
[17:06] <kaushal> due to which i broke my production laptop
[17:06] <hamitron> :/
[17:07] <kaushal> I get a grub> prompt
[17:07] <bigcalm> We learn a lot by breaking stuff :D
[17:07] <kaushal> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/591306/
[17:09] <popey> kaushal: i suspect you have overwritten your grub bootloader
[17:09] <popey> rather than installing grub on the usb stick
[17:09] <kaushal> my bad
[17:09] <kaushal> :/
[17:10] <kaushal> popey: i tried to fix it
[17:11] <kaushal> Please guide
[17:11] <shauno> have you taken a run thru https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestoreGrub  ?
[17:11] <kaushal> yes
[17:11] <popey> kaushal: sorry, i am just packing up and leaving the office now
[17:12] <bigcalm> popey: part timer!
[17:12] <popey> I am working from home from 9pm until sunday lunchtime
[17:12] <popey> :p
[17:13] <popey> and by "working" I mean "watching an rsync in a screen"
[17:13] <bigcalm> popey: Workaholic!
[17:13] <bigcalm> Oh, fun
[17:13] <popey> :)
[17:13] <popey> copying ~4TB from here...                            to here...
[17:13] <daubers> popey:  over single GigE?
[17:14] <bigcalm> By working you mean playing minecraft while you have a terminal open
[17:14] <popey> yus
[17:14] <davmor2>  copying ~4TB from here... 1tb                           to here...
[17:14] <popey> from one filer to another
[17:14] <davmor2>  copying ~4TB from here...    1tb                        to here...
[17:14] <popey> heheh
[17:14] <bigcalm> Hehe
[17:14] <davmor2>  copying ~4TB from here...       1tb                     to here...
[17:15] <davmor2> it start to slow in the middle it always does
[17:15] <daubers> popey: Should only take ~10 hours if your drives can sustain saturated GigE
[17:16] <popey> I'm getting ~70MB/s
[17:16] <popey> right, home time.
[17:18] <kaushal> shauno: please give me a moment
[17:18] <kaushal> popey: will update you
[17:18]  * kaushal rebooting my laptop
[17:18] <popey> its fairly easy to fix
[17:18] <kaushal> yes it is
[17:20] <bigcalm> Has anybody experienced <select>s not working in FireFox? By not working, I mean that clicking on them will not display available options. Using cursor keys does work though to cycle through the options
[17:26] <kaushal> hi
[17:27] <kaushal> shauno: i tried following the steps as mentioned on the recovery grub2
[17:27] <kaushal> it did not worked :/
[17:27] <kaushal> i still get the grub> prompt
[17:28] <kaushal> popey: sorry i got rebooted
[17:29] <bigcalm> kaushal: he has gone home
[17:29] <kaushal> oh ok
[17:29] <kaushal> i mounted the boot partition
[17:30] <kaushal> it gave "No error reported"
[17:30] <kaushal> Anything else i am missing ?
[17:32] <AlanBell> if anyone has unity questions David Barth, the Desktop Experience Engineering Manager is now doing a Q&A session in #ubuntu-classroom
[17:33] <AlanBell> and you can poke him with questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[17:33] <AlanBell> ali1234: MartijnVdS ^^
[17:34] <kaushal> AlanBell: ok
[17:34] <kaushal> AlanBell: Shall i explain the issue ?
[17:35] <HazRPG> woot! My Arabic recipe got added in Calibre :D
[17:35] <HazRPG> score \o/
[17:36] <kaushal> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/08/%23ubuntu-uk.html
[17:36] <kaushal> I dont see the latest conversation
[17:37] <HazRPG> kaushal: hmm?
[17:37] <kaushal> I have by mistake broke my production laptop
[17:37] <kaushal> :/
[17:38] <kaushal> I mean overwritten the bootloader
[17:39] <kaushal> followed the suggestion as mentioned by shauno
[17:40] <kaushal> sudo grub-install --root-directory=/media/0d104aff-ec8c-44c8-b811-92b993823444 /dev/sda
[17:41] <kaushal> i just got Installation finished. No error reported.
[17:41] <kaushal> and rebooted and still get grub >
[17:42] <shauno> I really don't have anything that isn't in the wiki.  I've not touched grub for a loooong time.
[17:43] <kaushal> ok
[17:43] <kaushal> Anyone else can guide me ?
[17:47] <HazRPG> I'm lost, what's up exactly?
[17:47] <HazRPG> or rather what happened?
[17:48] <kaushal> HazRPG: i have overwritten by bootloader on 10.10
[17:48] <kaushal> while preparing persistence USB stick
[17:49] <kaushal> I did followed https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows
[17:49] <kaushal> Any clue ?
[17:51] <HazRPG> you say you get a grub promt right?
[17:51] <kaushal> yes
[17:51] <HazRPG> prompt*
[17:51] <HazRPG> oh
[17:51] <HazRPG> ok*
[17:51] <HazRPG> hang on a second
[17:51] <kaushal> sure
[17:52] <HazRPG> did you just copy and paste exactly was in the wiki?
[17:52] <kaushal> nope
[17:52] <HazRPG> oh, its just because you wrote: kaushal: sudo grub-install --root-directory=/media/0d104aff-ec8c-44c8-b811-92b993823444 /dev/sda
[17:52] <kaushal> Are you asking about the UUID ?
[17:52] <HazRPG> which is the exact same command as the wiki
[17:52] <HazRPG> yeah
[17:52] <kaushal> nope
[17:52] <kaushal> thats the command i follow :)
[17:53] <HazRPG> right, so when you typed mount | tail -1, it gave you /media/0d104aff-ec8c-44c8-b811-92b993823444 ?
[17:54] <kaushal> sudo grub-install --root-directory=/media/56c0727a-78fb-4888-9f51-4cd5ca58533b /dev/sda
[17:54] <kaushal> /dev/sda1 on /media/56c0727a-78fb-4888-9f51-4cd5ca58533b type ext4 (rw,nosuid,nodev,uhelper=udisks)
[17:54] <PalaPad_> What a day
[17:54] <PalaPad_> Am knackered
[17:54] <kaushal> Installation finished. No error reported.
[17:54] <HazRPG> kaushal: ah, so you typed the right one for your system... that's okay... hmm
[17:55] <kaushal> HazRPG: Anything else i need to do ?
[17:55] <HazRPG> did you check that it was boot partition ?
[17:55] <kaushal> yes
[17:55] <HazRPG> ok
[17:56] <MartijnVdS> Failing police in this town.. you're not allowed to use a bicycle in the main shopping street.
[17:56] <MartijnVdS> What's the best way to give fines to people who do?
[17:56] <MartijnVdS> Go after them on a motorbike of course!
[17:57] <KrimZon> because unicycles are so much safer
[17:57] <MartijnVdS> KrimZon: no, it's just not safe to cycle in a sea of walking people.. common sense
[17:57] <KrimZon> oh, it's pedestrianized
[17:58] <HazRPG> kaushal: hmm...
[17:59] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRfluaMKoOY
[17:59] <AlanBell> ooh heck, bit more nsfw than I thought
[18:00] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: he sounds more northern english than dutch :)
[18:01] <kaushal> HazRPG: Anything else to be done ?
[18:02] <HazRPG> kaushal: erm...
[18:02] <HazRPG> yes
[18:02] <HazRPG> at the grub prompt try this
[18:02] <HazRPG> root (hd
[18:02] <HazRPG> but don't hit enter!
[18:02] <HazRPG> press tab
[18:02] <HazRPG> it should show you a list
[18:02] <HazRPG> or it might just put in a 0
[18:02] <kaushal> ok
[18:03] <MartijnVdS> time to add some RAM, brb
[18:04] <HazRPG> if you get a list, pick one of the hard drives by typing a number in
[18:04] <HazRPG> (from the list)
[18:04] <HazRPG> then put a comma, and then tab again
[18:05] <HazRPG> the first number is the hard drive
[18:05] <HazRPG> and the second number is the partition
[18:05] <kaushal> ok
[18:06] <HazRPG> actually, hang on... I'll see if I can find a site with this info on
[18:06] <kaushal> root (hd0,1) setup (hd0,1)  ?
[18:06] <kaushal> if boot is /dev/sda1 ?
[18:07] <HazRPG> no, /dev/sda1 would be root(hd0,0)
[18:07] <kaushal> ok
[18:07] <HazRPG> because sda# usually starts with 1
[18:08] <kaushal> ok
[18:08] <kaushal> HazRPG: will try it and update you
[18:08] <kaushal> please give me a moment
[18:08] <bigcalm> Have a good weekend everybody :)
[18:08] <HazRPG> kaushal: here, I've found this site with some better instructions :) http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.php?act=ST&f=14&t=5025
[18:08] <HazRPG> bigcalm: you off for the weekend or something?
[18:09] <MartijnVdS> \o/ 8GB
[18:10] <bigcalm> HazRPG: it's that time of the week again :)
[18:13] <HazRPG> kaushal: if you follow that guide and can boot ubuntu back up, type in "sudo update-grub2" inside of ubuntu
[18:14] <kaushal> ok
[18:14] <kaushal> sure
[18:44] <MartijnVdS> directhex: How did that work? Dropping banshee CPU usage by that much?
[18:50] <directhex> MartijnVdS: short version: a major reduction in the frequency with which the "now playing" text label is refreshed. it was several times per second before. next thing is to make it not update whilst minimized
[18:50] <MartijnVdS> directhex: ooh..
[18:51] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: nice timing with the ooh I'm currently listening to war of the worlds :D
[18:54] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: don't tell the Wokingites :P
[18:54] <davmor2> Mayberry hill
[18:58] <popey> evening all
[18:59] <MartijnVdS> evening popeyman
[19:15] <davmor2> morning popey
[19:38] <Seeker`> bah, I want to be able to sit and watch TV on a friday evening, not have to fight with X -_-
[19:40] <Seeker`> Hey, my pc has just failed to start X, using nvidia propietry drivers. Message in /var/log/Xorg.0.log is "Failed to initialize the NVIDIA graphics device PCI:2:0:0", and the /var/log/kern.log file seems to suggest that "RmInitAdapter failed! (0x26:0xffffffff:1028)", although the first item that looks like a "fail" is "vmap allocation for size 16781312 failed: user vmalloc=<size> to increase size" <- if anyone has any bright ideas
[19:47] <gord> Seeker`, try nouvou maybe?
[19:47] <gord> really, if the nvidia driver fails you just have to shrug and go "okay"
[19:48] <Seeker`> fixed it
[19:48]  * gord claps
[19:49] <Azelphur> Just did an update on natty, now I'm having issues with software sticky middle click, anyone else getting this?
[19:57]  * Azelphur pokes popey
[20:06] <gord> software sticky middle click?
[20:09] <Azelphur> gord if you press and release middle click, it only sends a keydown event
[20:09] <Azelphur> press and release again, it sends the keyup
[20:09] <Azelphur> so middle click is like a toggle switch now :s
[20:10] <Azelphur> really annoying breaks compiz rotate and my mouse gestures and paste :/
[20:10] <MattJ> Feature!
[20:10] <Azelphur> indeed \o/
[20:11] <gord> Azelphur, eh? weird
[20:11] <Azelphur> indeed, fun.
[20:11] <gord> i can't confirm that here
[20:11] <Azelphur> \o/
[20:12] <Azelphur> gord done a natty update and an X restart today? :p
[20:13] <gord> i did an update
[20:13] <gord> oh yes and a restart
[20:13] <Azelphur> fun
[20:13] <Azelphur> it just hates me personally then :D
[20:14] <MattJ> Feature!
[20:25] <jacobw> moo
[20:31] <willy1977> evening
[21:23] <daubers> evening
[21:26] <AlanBell> o/ daubers
[21:29] <daubers> Quiet around here this evening isn't it
[21:36] <Pendulum> it is quiet today
[21:36]  * Laney bangs some pots
[21:37]  * AlanBell looks at lots of c++
[21:38] <daubers> AlanBell: Urgh
[21:38] <daubers> AlanBell: Thats not good for you you know
[21:38] <AlanBell> yeah
[21:39] <AlanBell> who thought writing compiz in something other than python was a good idea?
[21:40] <daubers> heh, what're you trying to break in compiz?
[21:41]  * popey ponders minecraft
[21:41] <Seeker`> AlanBell: Fancy taking a look at my C instead?
[21:41] <Seeker`> :P
[21:42] <daubers> popey: I'm considering whether now is the right time to turn left towards rapture
[21:42] <daubers> Might go forward another six blocks firts
[21:43] <AlanBell> daubers: trying to get ezoom plugin to follow the text cursor
[21:44] <AlanBell> I know how orca magnifier does it in python
[21:44] <AlanBell> just need to do the same in C++, register for at-spi events and get the coordinates and move to them
[21:44] <AlanBell> simples
[21:44] <daubers> Doesn't sound it
[21:45] <AlanBell> if only I knew c++
[21:45] <daubers> Having spent the whole day compiling stuff, I think I can easily say tha all compiled languages are evil
[21:45] <AlanBell> yeah, I haven't quite figured that bit out yet
[21:46] <AlanBell> I managed to do it by dpkg-buildpackage then install the resulting deb
[21:46] <AlanBell> however that is really slow, I just want to compile one little cpp file each time I edit it
[21:46]  * hamitron will use everything compiled and let daubers just use the scripted stuff
[21:47] <matti> ;]
[21:47] <daubers> hamitron: I'm having to move more and more stuff into compiled languages lately for the performance :(
[21:48] <hamitron> daubers: good :)
[21:48] <hamitron> look at it as your part for saving the planet \o/
[21:49] <daubers> hamitron: By saving GHz?
[21:49] <AlanBell> meh to that
[21:49] <daubers> Oh, anyone know a good textbook that talks about binary diffing?
[21:49] <AlanBell> almost always the algorithm counts for much much more than the interpreted vs compiled difference
[21:50] <hamitron> daubers: yeh, less speed can equal less need for power :)
[21:50] <daubers> AlanBell: I've tested some of it in both :) Compiling it definatley helped
[21:51] <AlanBell> yeah, but if you have a compiled routine that touches the disk once more per loop than an interpreted one then the interpreted one will win
[21:51] <daubers> Most of the time I'm trying to _stop_ it touching the disk
[21:51] <hamitron> AlanBell: that is really using an unfair comparison to make scripts look good ;/
[21:52] <hamitron> like for like, compiled code is "better"
[21:52] <daubers> AlanBell: Also, in the box that this is for, disk isn't too much of a bottleneck :)
[21:52] <AlanBell> hamitron: sure, my point is that the algorithm is more important than the language
[21:53] <hamitron> AlanBell: I'll accept that :)
[22:03] <daubers> Oooh, didn't notice the ubuntu circle of friends doodah goes blue when an appliction wants your attention
[22:03] <czajkowski> daubers: aye I find it an odd choice of colour
[22:04] <daubers> czajkowski: \o/
[22:04] <daubers> Hows your back?
[22:04] <hamitron> a hot colour would be nicer?
[22:04] <czajkowski> daubers: getting there slwoly but surely
[22:04] <czajkowski> a week of resting sleeping and not being online has helped a lot
[22:04] <daubers> czajkowski: My wifes cousin was rushed to surgery today to sort a slipped disk!
[22:05] <daubers> czajkowski: Really do take it easy.
[22:05] <czajkowski> that's one of my greatest fears
[22:05] <czajkowski> surgey on my back
[22:05] <czajkowski> it has only a 50/50 chance of success
[22:05] <daubers> czajkowski: My boss has a slipped disk that can't be moved as it's pressing on some nerver or other, his dad has the same
[22:05] <czajkowski> daubers: yup I'd need a neurosurgeon to operate on mine
[22:06] <czajkowski> as nerve is caught down my left leg
[22:06] <daubers> czajkowski: Ick
[22:06] <czajkowski> yes
[22:08] <daubers> czajkowski: Well, don't go breaking yourself!
[22:08] <czajkowski> no intention of
[22:08] <czajkowski> reason I've been offline and restging this week
[22:08] <czajkowski> stayed in london and slept
[22:08] <daubers> :)
[22:09] <daubers> well, 'cept the first bit of that sentence
[22:09] <daubers> stayinh in london is more of punishment
[22:09] <czajkowski> nah it was all good
[22:38] <popey> Azelphur: you about? i have a steam question
[22:38] <Azelphur> yup
[22:51] <popey> Azelphur: had problems where you cant logon to steam, try to reset pw and it wont accept it?
[22:51] <Azelphur> nope
[22:52] <Azelphur> popey: try doing it from steamcommunity.com ?
[22:52] <popey> no
[22:52] <popey> i havent
[22:52] <Azelphur> I do have an issue where it stalls at logging in for anywhere up to 48 hours
[22:52] <popey> hm
[22:53] <popey> its asking for a code
[22:53] <popey> ah, i have mail
[22:53] <Azelphur> indeed
[22:53] <popey> so i have logged in via the website now..
[22:53] <popey> wonder why i couldn't with the client
[22:53] <Dave2> SPOOOOOOOOON^WSTEAAAAAAAAAM GUAAAARD. *ahem*
[22:54] <popey> but i cant login with the client now...bah
[22:55] <Azelphur> popey: does it hang?
[22:55] <popey> no, it just goes back to the logon screen
[22:55] <Azelphur> no error?
[22:55] <popey> hah, now its updating
[22:55] <Azelphur> :D
[22:58] <popey> sorted, seems like the steam guard thing is new?
[22:58] <popey> new since i last used it
[22:58] <Azelphur> popey: yep
[22:58] <Azelphur> popey: they are quite proud of it and did a press release where gabe newell told everyone his password
[22:58] <Azelphur> myself, I think it's irritating and turned it off :D
[22:59] <popey> heh
[23:31] <directhex> i turned it off too
[23:31] <directhex> and the release version is not gabe's version
[23:31] <directhex> gabe runs a steam beta which uses intel's cpu-based drm
[23:31] <directhex> the normal version isn't as smart
[23:35] <Seeker`> so, should I get minecraft?
[23:36] <hamitron> bad for your health unless you are strong minded
[23:36] <Seeker`> well, I managed to quit WoW cold turkey
[23:37] <hamitron> if you can do that when needed, should be safe
[23:37] <hamitron> :)
[23:38] <hamitron> I'll be making a minecraft comeback soon
[23:38] <hamitron> \o/
[23:39] <popey> yay
[23:40] <hamitron> I've been playing too much Hearts of Iron
[23:40] <hamitron> :/
[23:41] <Seeker`> bah, can't buy it :( servers busy :(
[23:42] <popey> works fine here
[23:43] <hamitron> I'm still annoyed it won't work with synergy
[23:43] <hamitron> on the client comps anyway
[23:44] <Seeker`> "Too many concurrent Sessions. Please try again later"
[23:44] <popey> Seeker`: what url?
[23:46] <Seeker`> http://www.minecraft.net/prepurchase.jsp
[23:46] <Seeker`> then I enter my payment details, and the next page is "too many.."
[23:46] <popey> ah
[23:47] <matti> Hah.
[23:47] <hamitron> ner ner ;)
[23:47] <matti> I can't play 1080p ;/
[23:47] <hamitron> :\
[23:47] <Seeker`> you only have 1080p?
[23:47] <directhex> press f11?
[23:49] <MartijnVdS> I set up va-api (in vlc), now I can do 1080p
[23:49] <Seeker`> aha, got it
[23:51] <matti> It is tha my load average goes through the roof with 1080p
[23:51] <matti> I guess some code(s) are not the most performent ones.
[23:52] <matti> codec(s)
[23:52] <matti> Huu...
[23:52] <matti> Chillies were hot ;]
[23:53] <matti> ;p


[08:41] <sil2100> bdmurray, xnox: ok, just to double confirm - the phasing machinery for secureboot-db is deployed and it will all work automagically, yes?
[08:41] <sil2100> I don't need to do anything special to special-case it?
[09:30] <LocutusOfBorg> Laney, FYI we forgot on bad package the libgstcamerabin.so, so now they are not installable together (good and bad) meh, removing and reuploaded
[09:30] <LocutusOfBorg> seb128, ^^
[09:33] <Laney> LocutusOfBorg: You didn't test?!?!?!!
[09:33] <seb128> LocutusOfBorg, quality
[09:33] <LocutusOfBorg> I did
[09:33] <LocutusOfBorg> and I don't know why it got installed in my chroot
[09:33] <LocutusOfBorg> I also debdiffed the resulting binaries
[09:35] <LocutusOfBorg> of course I tested the locally built packages, not the one in the archive (because they were in new queue), so I used dpkg -i on them
[09:35] <LocutusOfBorg> the only package who was asking to be autoremoved was an old dbg package, because of the new dbgsym one
[09:35] <LocutusOfBorg> I still have the debs, let me try to figure out what happened
[09:36] <Laney> I see, that's partly why I wanted to have the PPA :-)
[09:36] <LocutusOfBorg> I even tested the upgrade path from 1.16 to 1.18
[09:39] <LocutusOfBorg> damn, I tested them again, and they still install
[09:40] <LocutusOfBorg> ok got it
[09:41] <LocutusOfBorg> libgstreamer1.0-plugins-good-dev doesn't install gstreamer1.0-plugins-good
[09:41] <LocutusOfBorg> seems counter intuitive, but correct :(
[09:42] <Laney> oh well, you caught it, no big harm this time
[09:46] <LocutusOfBorg> once, a while ago I setup piuparts to automagically do this instead of doing it manually (because with such big number of binaries and new binaries, manual testing is PITA), but I forgot the setup
[09:46] <LocutusOfBorg> meh
[09:48] <LocutusOfBorg> btw I would have loved to use the ones in the ppa, but the dh_gstscan dh call was not preloading the libraries (and silently failing), so I opted for a faster local build...
[09:49] <LocutusOfBorg> (not sure what the gstscanplugins call does, but I wanted to be safe)
[09:55] <Laney> It's used to generate the fields you see in the archive, Gstreamer-Encoders and friends
[09:55] <Laney> so that packagekit and stuff can find the right package to install on demand
[10:10] <xnox> sil2100:  correct
[10:11] <xnox> sil2100:  it has hardcoded constant to slow phase if package name is secureboot-db
[11:57] <Laney> LocutusOfBorg: The -dev package is borked on i386, the -opencv dep needs to be excluded there
[11:58] <Laney> if you've got time, fixing that would be welcomed, otherwise I'll do it later
[11:58] <Laney> and please pull git, I fixed up the branches a bit
[11:59] <Laney> they were a bit weirdly messed up
[12:05] <mvo> juliank: hey, not sure if you are the best person (who is doing grub these days?) to ask I just filed 1896608 about a grub-shim-amd64-signed failure, I have an open debug shell to the machine if that is useful, I can provide interactive help if needed
[12:06] <juliank> mvo: i did read the bug a few minutes ago, and that seems to be fallout from xnox's latest changes to error out with exit 1 instead of continuing on
[12:10] <juliank> mvo: I can't really context switch to it right now, I'm inside PackageKit :(
[12:18] <mvo> juliank: no worries! not urgent from my POV, just tried to help :)
[12:19] <LocutusOfBorg> Laney, done thanks
[12:19] <juliank> mvo: We've seen about 3 such bugs and marked them incomplete because there was no error message in the log :)
[12:20] <mvo> juliank: yeah, this wa a bit tricky to debug, it highlights that shell and debconf has some shortcomings when it comes to APIs :)
[12:21] <xnox> mvo:  how did you upgrade?
[12:21] <xnox> mvo:  non-interactive?
[12:22] <xnox> juliank:  also now i'm not sure if install_devices are expected to be empty for efi?!
[12:23] <xnox> mvo:  yeah i would want to see the debconf-get-selections | grep grub or some such.
[12:24] <juliank> xnox: grub-efi/install_devices should not be empty, it will be populated from mounted ESP (migrated setting)
[12:26] <xnox> ack
[12:26] <xnox> mvo:  were you upgrading non-interactive?
[12:26] <mvo> xnox: this was not set to non-interactive, the code comment is not accurate
[12:26] <mvo> xnox: it was an apt upgrade
[12:27] <xnox> but return code 30 would mean SKIP / not-shown
[12:27] <xnox> is our debconf handling all wrong then?!
[12:27] <mvo> xnox: it looks like this is an exit code
[12:27] <mvo> xnox: so the if is non-zero
[12:27] <mvo> xnox: at least that is what sh -x is indicating
[12:28] <xnox> mvo:  can you pastebin the sh -x log?
[12:28] <mvo> xnox: sure, one sec
[12:29] <mvo> xnox: I added debug lines to each "exit 1" so don't be surprised by that: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/9CBGGvJjz9/
[12:30] <mvo> xnox: I think the crux is that "if db_input critical grub-efi/install_devices_empty" gets a return code 30 because the question is skipped
[12:30] <mvo> xnox: and that triggeres the "non-interactive" branch which is not quite right, it's skipped because it was asked before
[12:31] <mvo> xnox: does that make sense?
[12:31] <LocutusOfBorg> Laney, I think you got it from ehre "libgstreamer-plugins-bad1.0-dev/i386 has unsatisfiable dependency"
[12:31] <LocutusOfBorg> what about also telling "which" dependency is unsatisfiable? isn't this a good feature?
[12:33] <mvo> xnox: grep -A4 grub  /var/cache/debconf/config.dat|pastebinit -> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/j2DwtQHzSb/ but I think the crux is just the "install_devices_empty" and the fact that it has the seen flag
[12:34] <mvo> xnox: anyway, I have the debug shell here if needed, I would love to have the two "exit 1" to print something before they exit so that at least it's slightly more clear what is going on (I was totally lost when I saw this initially)
[12:47] <sil2100> xnox: ok, done, hopefully it's phasing now
[12:47] <sil2100> xnox: btw. is phasing also implemented for -security too?
[13:09] <xnox> sil2100:  no, there is no phasing for -security, it gets auto-installed within 24h via unattended updates.
[13:21] <LocutusOfBorg> jamespage, hello, do you care about temptest? removing python3-neutron-tempest-plugin/0.2.0-1/amd64 from testing makes python3-tempest/1:23.0.0-0ubuntu2/amd64 uninstallable
[13:25] <LocutusOfBorg> I syncd it
[13:27] <LocutusOfBorg> looks like it was syncable, and no features
[13:36] <Laney> LocutusOfBorg: it is, but the code doesn't make it simple so that's why it's not been done straight away
[13:36] <Laney> feel free to take a look
[13:40] <LocutusOfBorg> ack, I was wondering something more difficult to implement
[13:41] <LocutusOfBorg> btw, will you open an RC bug for gst-omx in Debian too?
[13:41] <LocutusOfBorg> I asked to trigger an autopkgtest
[13:41] <LocutusOfBorg> the full gst-stack in Ubuntu might be close to migration in one britney run
[13:42] <LocutusOfBorg> I mean, you opened a bug already, but I would raise it to RC
[13:42]  * LocutusOfBorg does it
[14:08] <LocutusOfBorg> looks like the Debian gst-omx is not failing, so probably also the Ubuntu one was good with the correct gst* triggers
[14:12] <seb128> LocutusOfBorg, l_aney said he fixed that one already
[14:12] <seb128> LocutusOfBorg, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/groovy-changes/2020-September/011185.html
[14:17] <Laney> LocutusOfBorg: I guess if you can prove it's broken in Debian, feel free to make it RC
[14:17]  * Laney likes tasty RC bugs
[14:49] <LocutusOfBorg> Laney, what I'm saying is that it wasn't broken at all in Ubuntu
[14:49] <LocutusOfBorg> https://ci.debian.net/packages/g/gst-omx/unstable/ppc64el/
[14:49] <LocutusOfBorg> it just needed the right gst trigger to pass... so I can't RC it :)
[14:57] <Laney> sad
[14:59] <xnox> juliank:  so apperantly it is hetzner machine, and it has grub-efi-amd64-signed installed, despite not being an EFI machine......
[15:00] <xnox> juliank:  it seems like grub-efi-amd64-signed is installed, yet the machine is non-efi one
[15:00] <LocutusOfBorg> I triggered the test with the right triggers, lets see
[16:08] <juliank> xnox: I shall upgrade my hetzner
[16:09] <juliank> xnox: i have a hetzner vps and I don't have efi grub
[16:10] <juliank> xnox: but yes, that's a valid configuration
[16:10] <juliank> xnox: that's why grub-* only upgrade grub, and don't install new grubs
[16:13] <LocutusOfBorg> waveform, hello, can you please forward rpi.gpio patches to debian next time?
[16:14] <LocutusOfBorg> I fixed your package, but please next time make it syncable, specially when packaging bugs comes from Debian...
[16:15] <LocutusOfBorg> oh well, there is a merge request with that change, nevermind
[16:15] <waveform> LocutusOfBorg, which patch is that (I don't recall touching rpi.gpio in aaages?)
[16:15] <waveform> (though it's on my list for the next cycle as we're way out of date on that and need to get gpiozero in too)
[16:16] <LocutusOfBorg> the readme file being wrong
 Opened #970728 in src:rpi.gpio 0.7.0-0.1 by Gianfranco Costamagna (locutusofborg) «rpi.gpio: bad debian/doc file». https://bugs.debian.org/970728
 Opened #970726 (serious) in src:rpi.gpio 0.7.0-0.1 by Gianfranco Costamagna (locutusofborg) «rpi.gpio: FTBFS in sid (gcc-10)». https://bugs.debian.org/970726
[16:17] <LocutusOfBorg> and also the gcc-10 build failure in proposed
[16:17] <LocutusOfBorg> I'm NMUing the package in Debian so we can sync it again
[16:21] <LocutusOfBorg> waveform, well 0.7.0 looks like the latest stable to me
[16:21] <LocutusOfBorg> but in any case, I can do the "debian" uploads if you want
[16:21] <LocutusOfBorg> so the package doesn't get forgotten in Ubuntu, and is auto syncd
[16:24] <waveform> LocutusOfBorg, thanks - that would be good (it's on my list, along with the other gpio-related packages, to look at next cycle - and I need to look at moving the udev rules in rpi.gpio out of that package and somewhere in the base image)