[00:03] <humphreybc> looks good Ilya
[00:03] <humphreybc> do you want to push your changes?
[00:03] <humphreybc> Tidying up the prologue was on my list of things to do anyhow :)
[00:31] <humphreybc> wow the thread is up to 11 pages now
[00:31] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson, how is the survey going?
[00:39] <wolter> hey humphreybc why can't we use \begin{comment} in the manual?
[00:40] <humphreybc> uhm.. pass?
[00:40] <humphreybc> you want to add in a comment?
[00:40] <wolter> Well, i get building problems when I use one in my tex file
[00:41] <humphreybc> godbyk: ^^
[00:45] <wolter> \begin{comment} So I don't have to prepend % to every sentence \end{comment}
[00:45] <humphreybc> hmm
[00:45] <humphreybc> i'm not sure
[01:02] <wolter> should I use \application{App} everytime I mention an application's name?
[01:43] <godbyk> back.
[01:44] <godbyk> wolter: There's current not an environment defined for that, but I could make one.  You just want a place to dump comments that don't appear in the PDF? Or do you want the to appear in the PDF?
[01:44] <godbyk> wolter: Yep, using \application{App} will let us format all the application names the same way (and also automatically add them to the index).
[01:44] <wolter> godbyk, i just want the text between \begin{comment} and \end{comment} to work as % comments
[01:45] <wolter> in other words, yes, off the PDF comments
[01:52] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i'll push the changes then
[01:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> re survey: we've got about 200 responses
[01:56] <humphreybc> awesome
[01:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> I want about a thousand
[01:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> and i want a lot more windows/mac users than we have (the majority is still linux ppl)
[02:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: pushed
[02:08] <wolter> I suggest that the text formatted with \nav{} is either underlined or italicized
[02:13] <godbyk> wolter: Thanks, I'll see how that looks.  Right now all the formatting (\application, \nav, etc.) is just kind of placeholder. We can tweak it all whenever we like.
[02:17] <wolter> Ok
[02:17] <wolter> good
[02:19] <wolter> hey humphreybc I just worked on the software and packaging section, i will push now in case you wanted to review my changes
[02:19] <humphreybc> wolter sweet ill check them out
[02:22] <godbyk> who's in charge of the Makefile? I'd like to hack on it or replace it.. it'd be better if we compile with pdflatex instead of straight latex.
[02:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> re navigation, per style guidelines in Ubuntu and other guides, it should be Menuitem --> Submenuitem --> ...
[02:24] <humphreybc> godbyk, i guess you are
[02:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> or the equivalent thereof
[02:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> except that in LaTeX we have codes for arrows
[02:25] <humphreybc> yeah arrows are swell
[02:25] <humphreybc> godbyk could you push through the changes to the notes?
[02:25] <godbyk> we can pick different arrows, as well.  those were just the ones I typically use.
[02:25] <godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, once I fix things I broke. :-)
[02:25] <wolter> ok, i would use triangles for arrows
[02:25] <humphreybc> haha okay neat
[02:25] <godbyk> What's the normal bzr work-flow?
[02:26] <humphreybc> what's the benefit of using pdflatex?
[02:26] <godbyk> Right now, I make changes, then bzr commit, then bzr merge, then bzr commit again, then bzr push.
[02:26] <wolter> Applications ▸ Accessories ▸ Terminal
[02:26] <wolter> for example
[02:26] <wolter> but smaller, if possible
[02:26] <godbyk> for that second bzr commit, I'm always at a loss of what to say about the changes because nothing's changed -- it's just merging the main branch and my previous changes.
[02:26] <wolter> let me see if I can find any
[02:27] <godbyk> humphreybc: well, the immediate benefit is that the cover page stuff will work. :-)
[02:27] <godbyk> also, I think the result PDF files may be smaller, though I haven't tested it.
[02:27] <godbyk> the current compile path looks like this: .tex -> .ps -> .pdf
[02:27] <godbyk> whereas with pdflatex, it's .tex -> .pdf
[02:27] <wolter> Applications ➤ Accessories ➤ Terminal
[02:27] <wolter> also looks good
[02:27] <wolter> but i think the other one is better, for it is more simple
[02:28] <humphreybc> cool, godbyk, do it. wolter I like those, how are you doing them in IRC?
[02:28] <wolter> humphreybc, i just copy them from the character map
[02:28] <humphreybc> oh ok
[02:28] <humphreybc> i thought you might have been using black magic
[02:28] <godbyk> wolter: Pick an arrow from here: http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/.../symbols-letter.pdf
[02:28] <wolter> there is a u though
[02:29] <humphreybc> link no woriky
[02:29] <humphreybc> worky*
[02:29] <godbyk> gah, bad url.
[02:29] <godbyk> one sec.
[02:29] <humphreybc> links in IRC are hopeless
[02:29] <godbyk> http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive/symbols-letter.pdf
[02:30] <godbyk> google mangled the url earlier.
[02:30] <humphreybc> haha
[02:30] <humphreybc> so pdflatex sounds good, go for it
[02:31] <godbyk> as for the bzr workflow, am I doing it right? if so, what do most people add for the msg when they merge?
[02:31] <wolter> ah my mouse weirded up again
[02:32] <humphreybc> there are a LOT of symbols...
[02:32] <godbyk> heh.. yeah.
[02:32] <humphreybc> um no we usually don't merge
[02:32] <humphreybc> we just make changes, commit, push
[02:32] <godbyk> LaTeX is used for math all the time, so it requires a ton of symbols.
[02:32] <humphreybc> commit -m "Changes go here"
[02:32] <godbyk> I think it complains when I push and haven't merged.
[02:32] <humphreybc> really?
[02:32] <humphreybc> it shouldn't
[02:32] <humphreybc> do you pull first to get the latest reviison tho?
[02:33] <wolter> \blacktriangleright seems like it
[02:33] <humphreybc> \Rightarrow looks okay too
[02:33] <wolter> or \smalltriangleright
[02:33] <humphreybc> wolter what page is blacktriangle on?
[02:34] <wolter> hm.. 28, but just search for it
[02:34] <godbyk> ok, I did a pull.. that appears to have worked.  Got a msg about "Text conflict in ubuntu-manual.cls".  Can I see what the conflict was so I can resolve it?
[02:34] <wolter> humphreybc, I think rightarrow is a little cluttered
[02:34] <humphreybc> you could be right
[02:34] <humphreybc> i like \blacktriangleright
[02:35] <humphreybc> i think if you do bzr diff godbyk
[02:35] <humphreybc> it will show you some info
[02:35] <humphreybc> bzr --help too
[02:35] <godbyk> wolter: Ah, you'll have to pick a different black triangle.  Those are included only with the Minion Pro font.
[02:35] <humphreybc> or bzr -merge. You can merge locally which would save two commits
[02:35] <humphreybc> hahaha
[02:35] <godbyk> The Minion Pro font is non-free.
[02:35] <wolter> oh
[02:35] <humphreybc> \closedsucc ?
[02:36] <godbyk> I could compile it since I have the font, but no one else could.  (I could put in an if-minion-pro-installed-use-it-else-use-this-other-font for you guys, but then I have to compile all the final drafts.)
[02:36] <humphreybc> lol no that's fine godbyk we can find another arrow
[02:37] <humphreybc> \succ ?
[02:37] <humphreybc> or \clossedsucc - they both look good
[02:37] <humphreybc> minimilist
[02:37] <humphreybc> maybe too minimilist
[02:37] <humphreybc> \gg ?
[02:38] <wolter> godbyk, which font should I look for?
[02:38] <wolter> I think there are plenty of them triangles
[02:38] <wolter> let me see
[02:38] <godbyk> I think almost all of the other symbols in that list are safe.
[02:38] <humphreybc> \gtrclosed
[02:38] <godbyk> I can also draw a triangle and use it as a symbol, too.
[02:38] <wolter> is gg >> ?
[02:38] <humphreybc> yea
[02:38] <wolter> If you could, I would draw a really small filled one
[02:39] <humphreybc> \gtrclosed is like the filled black triangle, but not filled
[02:39] <humphreybc> \blacktriangleright ?
[02:39] <wolter> hm i like that one
[02:39] <humphreybc> that one's filled
[02:39] <humphreybc> it's a bit big tho
[02:39] <wolter> i think that one is the non-free font
[02:39] <humphreybc> oh
[02:39] <humphreybc> yeah it is
[02:39] <godbyk> Minion Pro is a rather nice font. :-)
[02:40] <humphreybc> \Longrightarrow ?
[02:40] <godbyk> I think it comes with Adobe Acrobat Reader for free, but I'm not positive.
[02:40] <wolter> too long in my opinion
[02:40] <godbyk> What do you like/not like about the current arrow?
[02:40] <humphreybc> \Rightarrow ?
[02:40] <humphreybc> which current arrow?
[02:40] <godbyk> Too long/short? Too light/heavy?
[02:41] <godbyk> The one we're using in \nav.
[02:41] <humphreybc> goes to check
[02:41] <godbyk> (look in the software and packaging chapter)
[02:41] <humphreybc> too light
[02:41] <humphreybc> not prominent enough
[02:41] <humphreybc> where's chapter 8?
[02:42] <humphreybc> no one has started yet...
[02:42] <humphreybc> oh that's right Ryan was doing it
[02:42] <humphreybc> but he's been away
[02:42] <humphreybc> I like the filled one that wolter suggested
[02:42] <humphreybc> can we find a free alternative to that?
[02:43] <humphreybc> \chemarrow ?
[02:43] <humphreybc> also the registered trademark stuff looks ugly!
[02:44] <humphreybc> if we HAVE to put a circled R next windows or whatever, can we find a tiny one?
[02:44] <godbyk> humphreybc: We don't legally have to put (R) next to stuff, and I don't think we should.
[02:44] <humphreybc> Okay well remove them :)
[02:44] <humphreybc> when you see one
[02:44] <godbyk> Will do.
[02:45] <wolter> yeah, or just replace recursively all the \textregistered or \texttrademark for an empty char
[02:46] <humphreybc> aha!
[02:46] <humphreybc> \ding{228}
[02:47] <humphreybc> or 226 or 227
[02:47] <humphreybc> or 232
[02:47] <wolter> \mantriangleright
[02:47] <wolter> ?
[02:47] <wolter> let me check those
[02:48] <humphreybc> yep that could work, if we want something bigger we could use \Forward
[02:48] <humphreybc> man there are symbols for china here
[02:48] <humphreybc> i mean really, \MartinVogel ??
[02:48] <godbyk> Okay, I pushed a bunch of changes I'd made earlier (some which are still in-progress, so don't complain too much about the formatting yet! :)).
[02:48] <humphreybc> \Womanface ??
[02:48] <wolter> nice ding 228
[02:48] <godbyk> What all did you have me promise to do while I was in a half-awake state this morning during the meeting?
[02:49] <godbyk> And what did you want me to do just now?
[02:49] <godbyk> (Brain's fried today.)
[02:49] <humphreybc> hahaha
[02:49] <wolter> hey humphreybc so are meetings going to be at 2000 from now on?
[02:49] <humphreybc> um https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Meeting Summary
[02:49] <humphreybc> oh ignore the stupid split link
[02:49] <humphreybc> but meeting summar
[02:49] <humphreybc> just have a perve at the voting results
[02:49] <humphreybc> that's practically what has to happen :P
[02:49] <humphreybc> wolter: yep
[02:50] <wolter> good =D
[02:50] <humphreybc> we should have a sudo rm -rf / command with \skull beside it....
[02:50] <humphreybc> haha
[02:53] <wolter> hahaha
[02:53] <wolter> yes
[02:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> we should put the (R) at least once
[02:53] <wolter> We should put it short after the titlepage
[02:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> my recommendation is the first time in the manual use the full name of the thing (for example Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Vista, etc)
[02:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> any subsequent time, no need to use the symbol anymore
[02:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> so, basically, once per manual for the \textregistered or \texttrademark per brand
[02:54] <wolter> like, We acknowledge that <list of used registered brands> are registered brands and blah blah blah
[02:54] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: It's not really our place to defend or promote anyone else's registered trademarks.  All we should do is capitalize the words appropriately.
[02:54] <humphreybc> lol godbyk you've changed a tonne of stuff :P
[02:55] <wolter> style stuff?
[02:55] <wolter> let me pull
[02:55] <godbyk> A bit.. most of it is just taking out the pre-existing formatting so I can clean it up.
[02:55] <humphreybc> I'll talk to the doc team about what they do
[02:55] <godbyk> So some things will be going back in.
[02:56] <humphreybc> they would know more about legalities
[02:56] <humphreybc> neat
[02:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: it's not a promotion, it's actually a CYA move -- we're acknowledging the fact that the mark we are using is registered
[02:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> but after that, there's no need to do any further mentions
[02:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> this is pretty common for written works (books etc)
[02:56] <wolter> godbyk, I must say I like it, the font is nice to read
[02:57] <wolter> But I think we should adopt a more ubuntu-like style
[02:57] <wolter> and tab headers
[02:57] <wolter> I like the notes better though
[02:57] <godbyk> wolter: The current chapter and section headings are the LaTeX defaults.  I haven't gotten back to reformatting those, yet.
[02:58] <wolter> Also, watch the bullet symbols
[02:58] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I understand, but we're not legally required to specify (R) or TM or SM -- those are used solely by the companies that own those trademarks and service marks.
[02:58] <wolter> and, if there was a way to group near notes, that would be awesome
[02:58] <godbyk> wolter: What about the bullet symbols?
[02:59] <wolter> I don't know, I prefer the old ones (plain circles)
[02:59] <godbyk> The notes appear adjacent to where they were entered by the author.
[03:00] <wolter> lol ---> FLOSS @ chapter 10
[03:01] <humphreybc> hmm the serif font does look quite nice
[03:01] <humphreybc> but it's not "ubuntu" ish
[03:01] <wolter> Also, I think there is a space between bulleted points a little bigger than it should be
[03:01] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: the problem is that our stuff is competitve in a way.
[03:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> see http://en.allexperts.com/q/Business-Technical-Writing-1516/Trademark-Symbol-Use.htm (the answer to the question references a good manual of style)
[03:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> this is pretty common in technical writing
[03:03] <wolter> or we could just define variables for windows and mac and other common trademarks used
[03:03] <wolter> I don't know...
[03:03] <IlyaHaykinson_> we only need to do it once, not every time
[03:04] <humphreybc> we totally need to get a better R symbol then
[03:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> probably just need to redefine the command to make it smaller and superscript
[03:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> alright, i gotta run to dinner. be back in an hour or so
[03:05] <humphreybc> righto
[03:05] <wolter> Ill play some guitar, ill be here though
[03:07] <humphreybc> wolter you should learn "Gravedigger" by Dave Matthews
[03:07] <humphreybc> I've been learning it, it's a great song. Fairly easy and very effective.
[03:08] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I grabbed my info from the Chicago Manual of Style.
[03:08] <godbyk> It states:
[03:09] <wolter> oh thanks humphreybc I like dave matthews :)
[03:10] <godbyk> "Brand names that are registered trademarks -- often so indicated in dictionaries -- should be capitalized if they must be used. A better choice is to substitute a generic term when available. Although tht esmbols (R) and TM often accompany trademark names on product packaging and in promotional material, ther eis no legal requirement to use these symbols, and they should be ommitted wherever possible. Note also that some companies
[03:10] <godbyk> want people to use both the proper and the generic terms in reference to their products ("Kleenex facial tissues," not just {"Kleenex"), but here again there is no legal requirement
[03:11] <godbyk> Also, from reading online, if you put (R) next to a trademark that is *not* registered in that country, then it is illegal.
[03:11] <godbyk> http://inventors.about.com/od/inventing101trademarks/f/tm_symbol.htm
[03:11] <humphreybc> leave them out then
[03:12] <humphreybc> i'll confirm with the docs team
[03:12] <godbyk> In short, IANAL but from a typographic standpoint, I very much dislike them.  :-)
[03:17] <humphreybc> why on earth are there characters from the simpsons in latex!?
[03:17] <humphreybc> no wonder the download is so damn big!
[03:18] <godbyk> LOL
[03:19] <godbyk> It's kind of like python where if you can think of a feature, there's probably package that implements it already.
[03:20] <humphreybc> hahaha
[03:21] <humphreybc> I would like a feature in Ubuntu that flips my screen around every 5 minutes to a different orientation
[03:21] <humphreybc> so I can stretch my neck
[03:21] <humphreybc> it would reduce RSI
[03:24] <humphreybc> because I spend too bloody long in long meetings and IRC chats....
[03:25] <humphreybc> :P
[03:40] <doctormo_> humphreybc: I should be finished with the first release of ground control tomorrow... it's had some niggles today, but I will get a video out explaining how to use it.
[03:44] <wolter> are you martin owens?
[03:53] <godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, the credits are now in a three-column format.  I also changed the arrow used in the menu selection stuff.  (See page 17 and tell me what you think.)
[04:28] <humphreybc> wolter: yes doctormo is martin
[04:28] <wolter> cool
[04:29] <godbyk> wolter, humphreybc: do the new arrows look better?
[04:29] <humphreybc> yep godbyk they do look good
[04:29] <godbyk> 'kay, cool.
[04:29] <humphreybc> and the credits is definitely an improvement :)
[04:29] <wolter> should I pull?
[04:30] <godbyk> wolter: sure.
[04:31] <wolter> hm godbyk looks nice
[04:31] <wolter> I would prefer the grtclosed though
[04:33] <godbyk> wolter: It looks like grtclosed is only in the Minion Pro font, though, right?  (Did I miss it elsewhere?)
[04:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> for credits, can't we just do them later on (towards the end) by going over bzr logs?
[04:33] <wolter> oh
[04:33] <wolter> oh..
[04:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> instead of maintainign them all the time?
[04:33] <wolter> and how about the one in mnfnt?
[04:33] <wolter> man font or something?
[04:33] <humphreybc> Ilya, yeah probably
[04:34] <humphreybc> I just wanted to get an idea of what it'll look like
[04:35] <godbyk> The MnSymbol package uses the Minion Pro font for its symbols.
[04:52] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: ok, i agree with your research on (R)
[04:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> are Minion Pro fonts open content?
[04:57] <godbyk> I'm not sure what you mean by "open content".
[04:57] <godbyk> I think you can get a version of them for free with Adobe Acrobat Reader (but I'm not sure).
[04:57] <IlyaHaykinson_> it would appear that the fonts are under a commercial license
[04:58] <godbyk> I have a copy that I bought, so I can compile docs using them.. but if you don't have the fonts, it won't look the same when you compile it.
[04:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> they may be free, but they are not a) in the public domain, b) under the GFDL, c) under Creative Commons Attribution or Attribution-ShareAlike
[04:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> thus, they're not "open"
[04:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> which would mean that anyone using them needs to agree to a commercial license
[04:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> https://store4.adobe.com/cfusion/store/html/index.cfm?store=OLS-US&event=displayFontPackage&code=1719
[04:59] <IlyaHaykinson_> it's unfortunately not enough that they're distributed for free with a commercial program
[04:59] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yes, all of that is true.
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: the change to default-apps/gettingonline.tex with \advancedusage becoming a margin note didn't work
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> first, i really would like to have non-margin paragraph styles
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> i.e. just a differently-highlighted paragraph for advanced usage etc
[05:30] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Is it going to be a warning-like box? or what's its intent?
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> these aren't things that should go in the margin (plus, in this particular case, it breaks the layout completely)
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> no
[05:30] <godbyk> (I have to make a warning paragraph thingy still.)
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> similar to a warning, but more like a paragraph for people who want to be advanced
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> or do advanced things
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> not necessarily anything to watch out for...
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> but also not something i want to just put in the main body without highlighting as being advanced stuff
[05:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> in this particular case, it's a brief discussion of needing to enter a MAC address in certain cases... this is not something i would want to leave in the main body because it'll confuse people.
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> whereas in an "advanced" paragraph frame, it'll clearly stand out enough to be skipped by those who don't care, or specifically looked-at by those who need it
[05:35] <godbyk> It may be better to leave it in the main text (as a normal paragraph), but you'll have to explain to people when they need to enter the MAC address.
[05:35] <godbyk> If it's for "advanced usage," should it be included in the manual in the first place?  (I honestly don't know.)
[05:39] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think it's just one example of something that should be mentioned close to where the discussion is taking place, but very distinctly presented as not being part of the main narrative
[05:39] <IlyaHaykinson_> this is the case for most technical books on my shelf, at least... there's boxes, and notes, etc as needed.
[05:40] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Sure.  Do the boxes in those book tend to attract your attention or do you typically skip over reading them?
[05:40] <godbyk> And in this case, do we want the advanced usage notes to attract attention or minimize it?
[05:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> different readers will do different things. some people will see that it's for advanced use and skip right over it. others will read it.
[05:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> but regardless, it'll be clearly demarcated
[05:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> otherwise, i basically have to do the same demarcation -- but in prose
[05:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> or, alternately, leave it out of the manual altogether
[05:42] <IlyaHaykinson_> neither option sounds appealing :)
[05:42] <godbyk> Okay. Let me work up something here real quick and we'll see how it looks.
[05:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> thank you much
[05:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> btw... quick question.
[05:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> i noticed that with the recent change to the templates, you've removed color
[05:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> while it's fair to say that color will be mostly useless for folks who do print the manual -- i doubt many will waste color ink on it...
[05:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> it looks like the majority of our readers will not be printing it
[05:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> which means that we can use color, at least lightly, to help distinguish main section headings from subheadings
[05:48] <IlyaHaykinson_> font size is certainly a good hint too, but it may not be enough when the point difference between section, subsection, and subsubsection is as small as it is currently
[06:04] <godbyk> Yeah, I have to reformat the headings.
[06:05] <godbyk> I basically reverted a lot of the formatting to its original LaTeX defaults and I'm now applying the formatting decisions we made earlier.
[06:05] <godbyk> So the headings will be getting a makeover soon.
[06:05] <godbyk> Hopefully people aren't going so deep on the heading levels (hierarchy) that it becomes difficult to follow.
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, nifty, thanks. if possible, don't keep identing like we did before
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> it created such huge margins that the content looked really funny.
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> most books, imho, don't use section indentation.
[06:06] <godbyk> (Similar to: Just because you have
 through <h7> in HTML doesn't mean you *should* have seven levels of headings in your document.)
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> oh. right. i think our current three level set up is actually quite good.
[06:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> keeps us restrained.
[06:07] <godbyk> I haven't looked into everyone's writing, so I'm not sure how far people are going.  Hopefully subsection is low enough. :-)
[06:07] <godbyk> (Also, it means there are fewer headings I have to format! :-))
[06:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, section, subsection, subsubsection is what i meant by three levels.
[06:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think we could do with two levels, though so far just chap 3 (me) and chap 5 are using subsubsection
[06:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> which is rather to say that not a lot of other sections are fleshed out yet. :)
[06:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> personally i'd prefer if we leave all three levels handy. my chapter is very long, and i have to use sections one per application.
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> so really subsection and subsubsection are my two levels of hierarchy on a regular basis.
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> (in other words: i'd vote to keep subsub, if possible)
[06:12] <godbyk> Gotcha.
[06:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> ooh, gedit has a latex plugin
[06:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> ...complete with an embedded preview. very nice.
[06:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> btw, quick hit from the survey so far: nearly 40% of respondents say that they would be interested in printing the manual.
[06:45] <godbyk> wow.
[06:46] <godbyk> Since we're generating PDFs, we could also easily use a publish-on-demand site (like lulu.com) and people could buy printed copies.
[06:50] <godbyk> Btw, wolter, your \begin{comment} blah blah \end{comment} stuff should work now (though I haven't tested it).
[06:58] <wolter> oh thanks, you are really efficient godbyk :)
[06:59] <godbyk> wolter: I can't take much credit for that one.. It required \RequirePackage{comment}.
[06:59] <godbyk> Done! :-)
[06:59] <wolter> haha
[06:59] <godbyk> One of the best things about LaTeX is that if there's a feature you want, chances are someone's already written a package to implement it.
[06:59] <wolter> nice
[07:00] <wolter> i never knew about latex and how convenient it was until I joined this project
[07:00] <wolter> godbyk, and how do you write the style?
[07:00] <wolter> it is not CSS, is it?
[07:00] <godbyk> Nope, it's not CSS.  It's TeX -- its own language.
[07:01] <godbyk> You can take a look at the ubuntu-manual.cls to see what it looks like.
[07:01] <wolter> oh
[07:01] <godbyk> (most of the interesting code is toward the bottom.)
[07:01] <wolter> nice
[07:01] <wolter> good to know, I might play around with it a little later
[07:01] <godbyk> TeX is a typesetting language written by Donald Knuth in the late 70s and early 80s.
[07:02] <godbyk> It evolved into a Turing-complete language, so while it may not be easy, you really can do some crazy things with it.
[07:03] <wolter> Worked like a charm
[07:03] <wolter> yeah well, I wouldn't call it hard wither
[07:04] <wolter> either*
[07:04] <wolter> at least not LaTeX
[07:04] <wolter> (i've heard latex is different from tex)
[07:07] <godbyk> LaTeX is a set of macros built using the TeX language.
[07:07] <godbyk> Kind of a framework, so to speak.
[07:07] <godbyk> So LaTeX has nice syntactic sugar and commands/macros to simplify things for us mere writers.
[07:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, you know, one thing is quite annoying with our current layout: it's made for printing....
[07:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> so the margins shift between inside/outside
[07:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> and that means the content keeps shifting too
[07:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> makes reading the PDF, linearly, kind of distracting as the left alignment of text shifts with every page.
[07:11] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, that'll change in a bit.
[07:11] <godbyk> (It's just a matter of saying \LoadClass[oneside]{book} instead of \LoadClass[twoside]{book}.)
[07:11] <godbyk> In evince, I go to View > Dual.
[07:11] <godbyk> Then it looks all pretty again.
[07:12] <IlyaHaykinson_> plus, the alternating-margins only makes sense when printed in book form...
[07:12] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: alright. perhaps eventually, if we decide to offer an actual book version, we can have an alternate set of classes that do this twoside thing
[07:13] <godbyk> Yep.  I'm designing it on now so I don't have a bunch of work to do later.
[07:13] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, yes, pretty, though just by virtue of being side-by-side :)  thanks though.
[07:13] <godbyk> When we switch to oneside, it will just use the formatting and page layout of the right-hand-side page.
[07:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> nod. makes sense.
[07:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> thanks
[07:16] <wolter> oh.. now i understand why the text body shifts
[07:17] <godbyk> There is, in fact, a reason to the madness!  <grin>
[07:21] <wolter> haha
[07:21] <wolter> hey godbyk, is there a way I can separate my file into various and just include the text from the main file?
[07:22] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: see how i did it in default-apps
[07:22] <godbyk> wolter: Yep.
[07:22] <godbyk> Just split your file into multiple .tex files.
[07:22] <wolter> nice
[07:23] <godbyk> Then in your main chapter .tex file, use \include{sec1} \include{sec2} etc.
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> can't use include, i think... gotta use input
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> include doesn't allow you to nest other includes
[07:23] <godbyk> If you use \include, it will insert a page break.  If you use \input it won't.
[07:23] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Ah, that sounds vaguely familiar.
[07:24] <godbyk> (I never split my docs so far down. I usually keep one chapter per file.)
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> yeah
[07:24] <godbyk> Inkscape isn't exporting this icon to PDF in a very nice way.  :-(
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> the warning one?
[07:25] <godbyk> yeah
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> shouldn't it be a .PS or whatnot?
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> and theoretically there should be SVG -> PS conversion?
[07:26] <godbyk> Well, I'm hoping to bypass the tex -> ps -> pdf pipeline and go straight from tex to pdf.
[07:26] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah, during the build process?
[07:26] <wolter> godbyk, yeah, inkscape is giving me fun too
[07:27] <wolter> with transparencies
[07:27] <wolter> ?
[07:27] <godbyk> that's my guess.  not sure, though.
[07:28] <godbyk> I'd hate to have to export a nice vector graphic to a lame raster graphic.
[07:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> EPS is vector, isn't it?
[07:34] <godbyk> yes, but I don't think pdflatex likes it.
[07:34] <godbyk> plain latex will eat eps just fine, I think.
[07:34] <godbyk> unfortunately, plain latex doesn't like pngs (but pdflatex does).  (if I remember correctly)
[07:34] <godbyk> has to do with the differences in ps vs. pdf.
[07:38] <wolter> hey godbyk so the cover doesn't have to be in pdf format?
[07:38] <wolter> If it can be plain png and pdflatex works it nice, then i'm so relieved
[07:39] <wolter> anyway godbyk, how would I change the text color of chapters when editing the ubuntu-manual.cls ?
[07:39] <godbyk> Well, I *think* that using PDF for the cover and warning icons (and any other vector graphics) may reduce the resulting PDF file size.. but I'm not positive.  (I'd have to experiment to see.)
[07:39] <godbyk> If it comes down to it, we can use PNG graphics throughout, though.
[07:39] <wolter> would reduce quality of the cover then as well, wouldn't it?
[07:40] <godbyk> Yes, the PNG format would compress it and things like gradients may not fare as well, we'll have to see.
[07:41] <godbyk> Editing the colors of headings isn't the easiest thing to do.  Since we're using the titlesec package, it makes it a bit easier, but it still rather confusing.
[07:41] <godbyk> If you type 'texdoc titlesec' at the prompt, it will open up the documentation for the titlesec package.
[07:49] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I just pushed an update that includes \warning and \advanced.
[07:49] <godbyk> I'll fix them to use nice icons after I'm done beating up inkscape (or after I've given in to it).
[07:51] <wolter> haha
[07:51] <wolter> I know a bit of inkscape so if I could help you with anything just ask
[07:55] <godbyk> wolter: Just for you, I restored the colors of the headings. :-)
[07:56] <wolter> ooh nice
[07:56] <wolter> let me pull
[07:56] <godbyk> (People are probably tired of seeing commit emails from me!)
[07:57] <wolter> haha, don't bother.. but I think you should make the font bigger and bold, as it was before. Anyway, don't feel compelled to do it right now, even though your kindness would be well appreaciated
[07:59] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: nice updates, thanks.
[07:59] <godbyk> I just set them sans serif and bold.  I'll have to play with the font sizes tomorrow, I think.  I want to make sure there's a clear hierarchy between the different heading levels.
[08:00] <godbyk> It's 2 a.m. here, so I think I'll head to bed.  I'll continuing the formatting stuff tomorrow.
[08:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> besides, godbyk, i think i bother ppl with just as many commits as you.
[08:00] <godbyk> (Feel free to email me, file bugs, or leave messages on IRC for me while I'm away and I'll look into all of it in the morning.)
[08:00] <wolter> ok, thanks :)
[08:01] <IlyaHaykinson_> and, godbyk, thanks for the great work you are doing on the layout.
[08:01] <wolter> yeah, i like memoserv
[08:01] <godbyk> wolter: Works for me!
[08:01] <godbyk> Okay, g'night guys.
[08:01] <wolter> gnight
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> alright, midnight for me, time for bed as well.
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> bye folks.
[08:11] <wolter> bye IlyaHaykinson
[10:08] <jmburgess> hey everyone
[10:17] <jmburgess> wow
[10:20] <jmburgess> godyk has done a crap ton
[10:20] <jmburgess> he is a lot better than me at this
[11:48] <jmburgess> hey tya
[11:48] <jmburgess> or sorry XiXaQ
[11:48] <XiXaQ> :)
[11:48] <XiXaQ> what the hell does that quit message mean?
[11:48] <XiXaQ> * XiXaQ has quit (Success) ?
[11:50] <jmburgess> haha
[11:50] <jmburgess> it means that you quit and that was the comment your client gave
[11:50] <jmburgess> not ure why
[11:51] <XiXaQ> no, I didn't quit.
[11:51] <XiXaQ> also, that wouldn't look like that. That would look like * XiXaQ has quit (quit: Success)
[11:51] <XiXaQ> wouldn't it?
[11:52] <XiXaQ> hmm. Maybe not. * IlyaHaykinson_ has quit ("nitenite")
[11:55] <jmburgess> yeah i am pretty sure it is your client that does that
[12:13] <pererik87> someones earning karma:   	  (no translation yet)
[12:13] <pererik87> 	Translated and reviewed by Fredrik Sudmann on 2010-01-15 :P
[12:18] <pererik87> omg thats so annoying its everywhere.
[16:14] <kell05> Does anyone know how the manual is going to be delivered to the end user?
[16:17] <pererik87> I don't really know. i hope it wont compete with Ubuntu Help Center in system -> help and support
[16:31] <kell05> It might be wise to consider this now, especially since the document must be VERY visible to noobies.  Has it been considered asking ubuntuguide.org for a merge of the two projects?
[16:33] <pererik87> i didn't know about Ubuntu Help center before today. im so used to overlooking help symbols in windows, because they never did me any good
[16:34] <pererik87> I guess its a common problem among newbies also
[16:40] <kell05> You can lead a horse to water...
[16:41] <pererik87> i think ubuntu manual is the more to be printed form of help. i believe it could follow with new computers. UHC also needs to be sync. with the manual.
[16:42] <kell05> Never thought of a printed version.
[16:46] <pererik87> I don't know anything right now, i thought this was a UHC project. i didnt know it existed
[16:47] <pererik87> But i think it looks very good as a print. have you seen the front page layout and so. amazing
[17:02] <kell05> Any reason why my minor changes were rejected?  I added labels to the chapters to allow for cross referencing then alamati made modifications for version 124 and deleted them.  I am new to Open source development, so I just want to get my head round it so it doesn't happen again.
[17:04] <pererik87> The big guys live in another timezone. ask again in a few hours. I don't know the answer sorry
[18:21] <jmburgess> kell05: wait I am pretty sure we don't have a review process
[18:27] <kell05> Fair enough.
[18:39] <pererik87> what do i do with the one posting (not translated yet) as translations for stuff?
[19:05] <wolter> heyo
[20:01]  * dutchie writes up the translations process
[20:46] <godbyk> kell05: Per your earlier question, it was probably just due to someone not merging your changes before they commit (or something like that).  That's my guess, at least.
[20:46] <godbyk> kell05: Though, the labels should come *after* \chapter, otherwise they won't do what you think.
[20:47] <kell05> Ah, that was a screw up on the sed oneliner I used.
[20:48] <kell05> Cheers
[20:48] <godbyk> Once we have labels we can start using real cross-referencing instead of hard-coding it.
[20:49] <godbyk> (It'd been on my TODO list, so I'm glad someone's picked it up!)
[20:57] <dutchie> right, I just pushed an update on the translations
[20:57] <dutchie> if it screws the already-done ones up again, tell
[21:15] <godbyk> Hey, dutchie, has the Makefile ever been modified or is it the stock LaTeX Makefile?
[21:15] <dutchie> no, but I was going to at some point
[21:15] <godbyk> If there's nothing special in it, I'll probably replace it with one that uses pdflatex instead of plain latex.
[21:15] <dutchie> not just sed -i 's/latex/pdflatex/'?
[21:16] <dutchie> it seems pretty powerful, and I've got kind of used to it
[21:16] <godbyk> Can't, 'cause it's trying to be too smart about things.
[21:16] <dutchie> what, like images?
[21:16] <godbyk> It expects to take the .tex -> .ps -> .pdf path.
[21:16] <godbyk> images and hyperlinks, yeah.
[21:17] <dutchie> yeah, it might be easier to deal with a Makefile we've built ourselves
[21:17] <dutchie> it does have some pretty nice features, like all that colourised output
[21:17] <godbyk> I do like the colorized output.
[21:18] <godbyk> I'll try to see if we can keep that or find another colorizer.
[21:18] <godbyk> btw, do the po4a comments in the tex code tell po4a to handle it in a special way or something?  (just curious.. I've never used po4a)
[21:19] <dutchie> it complains if it doesn't know what's going on
[21:19] <dutchie> don't think it treats it differently or anythign
[21:21] <godbyk> Ah, okay.  Should I be adding those comments (and if so, when?), or is it easy enough for you to keep up with?
[21:22] <dutchie> well, all these extra commits are a pain
[21:22] <dutchie> just add them in whenever you do a new environment
[21:22] <dutchie> I assume you can work out the format?
[21:23] <godbyk> I can do that.  Do I add them for commands, too?
[21:23] <dutchie> don't think so
[21:23] <godbyk> 'kay.
[21:23]  * dutchie double-checks
[21:23] <godbyk> Well, I'll set up a new Makefile then and maybe we can see about automating the translations, too.
[21:24] <dutchie> yeah
[21:24] <dutchie> encodings are going to be a pain
[21:25] <godbyk> Yeah, that'll be interesting.
[21:25] <godbyk> If things get too hairy, we can always try switching over to XeLaTeX.  It'll let us use any font we want and works a lot better with unicode, I think.


[04:28] <pitti> Good morning
[08:03] <jibel> good morning
[08:09] <dholbach> good morning
[08:17] <pitti> hey dholbach
[08:17] <dholbach> hey pitti
[08:21] <jibel> good morning dholbach
[08:21] <dholbach> salut jibel
[11:08] <xnox> with the shiny new reboot powers - can one reboot multiple times?
[13:21] <zyga> balloons: ping
[13:22] <zyga> balloons: for the hardware collection tool, which versions of ubuntu are you interested in seeing supported? Currently we assume that -r and -s only, do you need anything earlier than that?
[14:59] <balloons> ohh zyga, ddn't see you in here :).. Yes, current development verision (raring) and forwardis fine


[01:55] <ddecator> i'm guessing the ubuntuzilla repo isn't officially supported by the mozilla team?
[02:01] <micahg> ddecator: no
[02:01] <micahg> ddecator: it's not a repo AFAIK
[02:02] <micahg> oh, I guess it is
[02:02] <ddecator> micahg, that's how a bug reporter referred to it...i noticed that it has its on bts on sourceforge, so i figured there wasn't a real connection
[02:02] <micahg> ddecator: nm, it is, but we don't support it
[02:03] <ddecator> micahg, so i'm guessing a bug report for a version of firefox from that repo is invalid and should be reported on the ubuntuzilla bts instead, or the person should use the official -stable ppa, yes?
[02:04] <micahg> yes, use the note about official software
[02:04] <ddecator> good deal
[02:04] <ddecator> one more ?
[02:05] <ddecator> micahg, is the latest update for ff 3.6 going to be pushed to the -stable ppa for karmic?
[02:07] <micahg> ddecator: yes
[02:08] <micahg> oh, the cookie accept thingy?
[02:08] <ddecator> micahg, yup
[02:09] <micahg> k, I'll push now
[02:09] <ddecator> micahg, thanks =)
[02:13] <micahg> ddecator: done
[02:14] <ddecator> micahg, thanks, now i can close those two reports
[08:45] <BUGabundo_remote> m0rn|ng
[12:01] <lantizia> Hey I normally use Ubuntuzilla to get the latest FX and TB, but I stopped and swapped to the firefox-stable PPA especially since an amd64 version is available
[12:02] <lantizia> Any chance of a thunderbird-stable PPA so I can stop using Ubuntuzill altogether?
[12:02] <lantizia> Or someone else I can get the latest stable (and TB branded) packages Thunderbird?
[12:02] <lantizia> *packaged
[12:04] <BUGabundo_remote> why branded?
[12:04] <lantizia> it helps me sleep at night
[13:10] <mahfouz> fx 3.7 from daily build not working atm
[13:10] <mahfouz> Could not find compatible GRE between version 1.9.3a2pre and 1.9.3a2pre.
[13:10] <mahfouz> strange error message :)
[13:10] <asac> mahfouz: guess xulrunner didnt get build and hence you dont have a xulrunner-1.9.3 that is appropriate
[13:11] <mahfouz> i have 1.9.3 installed
[13:12] <mahfouz> 1.9.3~a3~hg20100301r38798+nobinonly-0ubuntu1~umd1
[13:12] <asac> sure ... my guess is just that its too old
[13:13] <asac> hmm
[13:13] <asac> seems not ;)
[13:13] <mahfouz> just installed from daily build
[13:13] <mahfouz> I upgraded to lucid 2 days ago
[13:13] <mahfouz> today installed fx 3.7 and then this
[13:13] <mahfouz> could never start 3.7
[13:13] <asac> mahfouz: what is firefox-3.7 package version?
[13:13] <mahfouz> 3.6 works fine from daily build
[13:13] <mahfouz> 3.7~a2~hg20100227r38786+nobinonly-0ubuntu1~umd1
[13:14] <asac> mahfouz: yeah. so that is outdated it seems
[13:14] <asac> most likely it fails to build atm
[13:14] <mahfouz> ah ok
[13:14] <mahfouz> I'll try later
[13:14] <asac> yeah seems to https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-daily/+archive/ppa
[13:15] <asac> Applying patch bzXXX_moz_app_name_inconsistencies.patch
[13:15] <asac> patching file browser/installer/package-manifest.in
[13:15] <asac> Hunk #1 FAILED at 66.
[13:15] <asac> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- rejects in file browser/installer/package-manifest.in
[13:15] <asac> Patch bzXXX_moz_app_name_inconsistencies.patch does not apply (enforce with -f)
[13:15] <asac> so yeah. someone needs to rebase that patch
[13:54] <asac> Thunderbird <IP_ADDRESS> build1 - tagging started
[14:30] <asac> fta: dont disable nmt please just because folks complain ...
[14:30] <asac> ok scratch that
[14:34] <BUGabundo_remote> asac: LLOOOOOOOLL
[14:34] <BUGabundo_remote> make up your mind!
[14:34] <BUGabundo_remote> :p
[17:13] <fta> asac, ???
[17:14] <BUGabundo_remote> fta: I didn't get him either
[17:21] <asac> fta: all fine ... got confused by pmsgs i got
[18:52] <LLStarks> micahg, 3.7 is broken.
[18:52] <LLStarks> Could not find compatible GRE between version 1.9.3a2pre and 1.9.3a2pre.
[18:53] <micahg> LLStarks: k
[18:53] <micahg> LLStarks: I have to fix 3.7 anyways
[18:53] <LLStarks> hah
[18:53] <micahg> LLStarks: which version are you running
[18:53] <micahg> LLStarks: daily broke last night
[18:53] <LLStarks> that one.
[19:30] <ddecator> anyone know what a "compatible GRE" is for firefox? the version numbers seem to match up with xulrunner...
[19:31] <micahg> ddecator: yeah, it got tagged last night...that seems to happen when we get in between versions
[19:32] <ddecator> micahg, i didn't see anything on lp about it...but it should get fixed with an update soon? 3.6.2 still works for me, just not 3.7
[19:32] <LLStarks> and 3.6 still lacks cairo.
[19:33] <micahg> ddecator: yeah, xulrunner1.9.3 is ahead of ff3.7 which causes the issue, maybe I'll add a check on that
[19:33] <ddecator> micahg, ah, i see. thanks
[19:34] <micahg> ddecator: it'll be fixed tonight
[19:35] <micahg> at least the build...idk about the check
[19:35] <ddecator> micahg, good deal. i didn't realize how different i had 3.6.2 setup compared to my 3.7, so it'll be nice if i don't have to go through and reconfig my 3.6.2 install haha
[19:36] <micahg> ddecator: if you have the old xulrunner-1.9.3~a2 package in your apt-cache you could downgrade
[19:36] <ddecator> i just cleared my cache yesterday, but i can check...
[19:37] <ddecator> nope, i only have an a3 package now...oh well
[19:38] <micahg> ddecator: amd64 or i386?
[19:38] <ddecator> amd64
[19:39] <micahg> ddecator: karmic or lucid?
[19:39] <ddecator> karmic...do you have a link to the a2 package or something?
[19:40] <micahg> ddecator: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-daily/+archive/ppa/+build/1534930
[19:40] <ddecator> micahg, perfect! now i can get to work on getting back to some of my bugmail...
[19:41] <maxb> What exactly does the firefox-gnome-support package do? It appears to contain no files barring the changelog.
[19:41] <micahg> maxb: which release?
[19:42] <micahg> or rather, which source?
[19:42] <maxb> I'm looking at current lucid at the moment
[19:42] <micahg> hmm
[19:42] <micahg> that doesn't seem right...
[19:43] <micahg> maxb, to install the dependencies
[19:43] <micahg> package is empty
[19:43] <maxb> ah, I see
[19:44] <micahg> maxb: it's actually in the changelog for 3.6 initial release
[19:44] <maxb> oops :-) Sorry
[19:44] <micahg> maxb: np, just pointing you there if you wanted to know more :)
[20:28] <edakiri> is I'm missing a key for apt, it seems to be for mozilla team.  How do I get it? W: GPG error: http://ppa.launchpad.net karmic Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY EF4186FE247510BE
[20:29] <micahg> edakiri: PPA page has instructions
[20:29] <edakiri> I do have a key for mozilla team, but it is CE49EC21
[20:29] <lantizia> Lo, I normally use Ubuntuzilla for the latest FX and TB, but now I use the firefox-stable PPA especially since it's 64-bit too... any change of a thunderbird-stable PPA?  Or someone else I can get the latest stable (and mozilla branded) packaged Thunderbird 3?
[20:29] <micahg> lantizia: yes
[20:29] <edakiri> I followed the instructions and it installed the aformentioned key but not the missing key.
[20:29] <micahg> edakiri: which PPA?
[20:29] <lantizia> micahg, wow quick answer... what do I need to know?
[20:30] <micahg> lantizia: idk, I have to find out when I can publish it :)
[20:30] <edakiri> Perhaps the daily PPA?  I have both mozilla team PPAs.
[20:30] <micahg> edakiri: daily PPA is different
[20:30] <lantizia> micahg, so you have a TB 3.0.2 amd64 build (thunderbird branded) in .deb format?
[20:30] <micahg> lantizia: not yet, soon
[20:30] <lantizia> so a thunderbird-stable PPA is to be expected then?
[20:31] <micahg> lantizia: yes, probably before Lucid is released, but don't quote m
[20:31] <micahg> *me
[20:33] <lantizia> micahg, so for now (if I don't want it shredder branded) my only choice is the 32-bit ubuntuzilla or .tar.gz versions?
[20:33] <micahg> lantizia: I suppose, Lucid has 64 bit 3.0.1
[20:34] <lantizia> Ah... how handy, I'll steal that then :)
[20:34] <lantizia> it'll update when the thunderbird-stable PPA goes live anyway
[20:34] <lantizia> good idea!
[20:35] <micahg> edakiri: check the key on the mozilla daily PPA homepage
[20:36] <lantizia> micahg, I take it the "firefox-stable" PPA doesn't just exist to shut up Jaunty/Karmic users who want 3.6... it'll be a permanent offering that will always have the up to date (and mozilla branded) version?
[20:36] <lantizia> i.e. it's something you can rely on
[20:36] <micahg> lantizia: we'll try :)
[20:36] <micahg> yes, that's the goal
[20:36] <lantizia> ok just checking :)
[20:37] <micahg> we hope to have a relatively latest stable in all stable releases soon
[20:37] <lantizia> cuz obviously mozilla daily builds have existed for a while now
[20:37] <micahg> but this should be ahead of that as there is more QA required for archive entry
[20:38] <lantizia> will the versions in the PPA be affected by canonical decisions? (like the Yahoo! search change)
[20:38] <micahg> lantizia: already should be :)
[20:38] <lantizia> right, so in effect you're presenting the PPA versions to Mozilla for approval - and then re-using those packages in the distros
[20:39] <micahg> lantizia: no
[20:39] <lantizia> rather than waiting for the next distro to ask for approval
[20:39] <micahg> we get approval when needed/as necessary
[20:39] <lantizia> do this must have more than doubled the need to speak with Mozilla about approving your branded versions?
[20:39] <lantizia> *so
[20:39] <micahg> PPA is a way for people to get the latest stable a little faster than archive
[20:40] <micahg> they're the exact same packages
[20:40] <lantizia> right so what I said in the begining was right :)
[20:40] <lantizia> make them for PPA use as and when Mozilla releases a new version - reuse those packages in the main repository
[20:41] <micahg> lantizia: no, the mozilla-security PPA is for that purpose
[20:41] <lantizia> lol confusion
[20:42]  * micahg is starting to get confused...
[20:42] <lantizia> my understanding was each time you release a binary build of firefox you send a copy to mozilla first to get their blessing
[20:43] <micahg> lantizia: no
[20:43] <lantizia> so having this PPA that gives out branded versions... must more than double that contact with mozilla
[20:43] <lantizia> ok
[20:44] <lantizia> so if you don't need approval... then why bother having the daily builds unbranded?
[20:45] <micahg> lantizia: they approve the conventions we use in teh pacakges, dailies are unbranded
[20:45] <micahg> dailies upstream are unbranded
[20:45] <lantizia> right so the conventions for making the stable PPA versions and those in the main repository are the same - thus they can be branded
[20:46] <micahg> lantizia: right
[20:46] <lantizia> conventions used for the dailies are not always the same, thus safer to be unbranded
[20:46] <micahg> lantizia: dailies aren't branded by mozilla AFAIK
[20:46] <lantizia> they arn't
[20:49] <lantizia> micahg, ok so say if I use whatever "conventions" that mozilla have blessed canonical to use ... can I build myself a 64bit .deb version?
[20:49] <lantizia> or thunderbird
[20:51] <micahg> lantizia: no
[20:51] <lantizia> because I'm not canonical?
[20:51] <micahg> not in a PPA
[20:51] <micahg> the branding is licensed
[20:51] <lantizia> right, with a fee?
[20:52] <micahg> no, but you need permission to use it AFAIK
[20:52] <lantizia> right
[20:53] <lantizia> well this lucid thunderbird seems to depend on libasound2 (>> 1.0.22) for some stupid reason
[20:53] <lantizia> probably not needed, but having .deb installed manually is sticky enough - resolving all it's dependencies could be a headache
[20:54] <micahg> lantizia: xulrunner-1.9.1 requires it
[20:55] <lantizia> I already have xultunner-1.9.1 <IP_ADDRESS>+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.9.10
[20:55] <micahg> lantizia: yes, but tb has it's own copy
[20:55] <micahg> s/it's/its
[20:56] <micahg> lantizia: i don't think there's a strict version requirement, so if you have libasound2, you can force it
[21:20] <ccheney> asac: it seems that the GtkIconInfo stuff is needed by GtkEntry which is used by several parts of epiphany
[21:21] <ccheney> lib/widgets/ephy-search-entry.c lib/widgets/ephy-location-entry.c src/ephy-window.c
[21:22] <ccheney> asac: i guess if i can get rid of the gtk_entry_* calls i could bypass needing that
[21:22]  * ccheney will see if he can compare what was done in old epiphany to see if it is possible to copy old code in place of then stuff using gtk_entry
[21:30] <ccheney> ugh rewritten
[21:49] <ccheney> ephy-location-entry.c is particularly fun, heh
[21:49] <ccheney> whole thing appears to be rewritten to use new api
[22:10] <ccheney> epiphany api is slightly different for that part but not too bad it seems
[22:11] <ccheney> ugh it is worse than i thought inside though :-
[22:11] <ccheney> \
[22:12] <ccheney> apparently this icon stuff in gtk came from epiphany or looks like it did
[22:15] <ccheney> hmm so it seems i need to copy ephy-icon-entry from old version to new one, then copy those two other files over and fix them up to match the new api inside epiphany
[22:16] <ccheney> that might be enough to get away from the gtk_entry part
[22:24] <ccheney> grr it looks like some of what they changed was to just make diff's harder
[22:24] <ccheney> they reordered the structs in a header file for apparently no reason at all


[11:34] <kanzie> Im trying to get suspend and hibernate gto work...
[11:34] <kanzie> on my ibm thinkpad t60
[01:19] <kanzie> Im experiencing big problems with suspend and hibernate
[01:19] <kanzie> on my ibm thinkpad t60
[01:24] <mjg59> What version of Ubuntu?
[01:28] <kanzie> dapper
[01:28] <kanzie> latest, just installed
[01:28] <kanzie> the thing is I think my swap is to small, it is smaller than the size of my ram
[01:29] <kanzie> I have installed gparted but cant seem to resize my fat32-disk with free space on it
[01:47] <simira> kanzie: it is reported a bug on it, please add any comments or logs if you find it necessary (hibernate problems)
[01:52] <kanzie> simira: Where is it reported, which app is it that is causing the problems? xgl? compiz? or the x-server?
[07:57] <rizo> help https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/58247


[03:41] <UbUntUToUchLover>  test
[05:34] <brijithmac> how secure is ububtu touch!?
[05:34] <lotuspsychje> more secure then android
[05:34] <nhaines> Specify.
[05:34] <brijithmac> i am planning to install it in my nexus 7 tablet
[05:35] <lotuspsychje> its highly recomended to install :p
[05:35] <nhaines> lotuspsychje: Ubuntu has no encryption or data security.
[05:35] <brijithmac> :) ok
[05:36] <brijithmac> what about the stability?
[05:36] <nhaines> brijithmac: applications are heavily sandboxed, so apps are pretty secure.  But there's no encryption available so a stolen device means free data for the thief.
[05:36] <nhaines> Do you have the 2012 or 2013 Nexus 7?
[05:36] <brijithmac> 2012
[05:36] <lotuspsychje> ouch
[05:36] <nhaines> brijithmac: then Ubuntu is not available for that device, unfortunately.
[05:37] <brijithmac> :(
[05:38] <lotuspsychje> brijithmac: i buyed the 2013 wifi n7 just for ubuntu touch, and works nicely
[05:39] <brijithmac> wow great! but mine is 2012..
[05:39] <nhaines> I wouldn't buy a tablet for Ubuntu before there is being sold preinstalled.
[05:43] <brijithmac> yeah.. good. I am curious about it. so thought of installing it.. :(
[05:43] <lotuspsychje> brijithmac: maybe check the XDA forums and see if any project got it working anyway maybe
[05:44] <nhaines> Yes, unfortunately it is a lot of work to support specific hardware, so very few models are supported.
[06:44] <UbUntUToUchLover> Any news on the ovation image? I have a B&N Nook HD+, and the Ubuntu Touch image on the Ubuntu Touch Devices page has not been updated since May. I am currently running Cyanogenmod.
[06:47] <UbUntUToUchLover> Also, who is Wesnoth? Is this person the same one who develops the Battle for Wesnoth game? If so, he doesn't mention it on his website.
[06:49] <UbUntUToUchLover> If he does mention it, I haven't found it, yet.
[06:51] <UbUntUToUchLover> Sorry if somebody responded. I was accidentally kicked off.
[06:53] <UbUntUToUchLover> Is there anybody who can help me with my problem?
[06:58] <UbUntUToUchLover> Any news on the ovation image? I have a B&N Nook HD+, and the Ubuntu Touch image on the Ubuntu Touch Devices page has not been updated since May. For now, I am currently running Cyanogenmod, and although I like the user interface and the billions of Google apps, I am not fond of Android, and would rather have something close to one of my favorite Linux operating systems.
[07:00] <UbUntUToUchLover> I would also like to know a little more about the person who refers to him/her self as simply "wesnoth", and if it is the same developer of Battle for Wesnoth.
[07:02] <UbUntUToUchLover>  Is there anyone who can help me?
[07:03] <nhaines> UbUntUToUchLover: you'll need to use the contact information on the Ubuntu Touch Devices page to get more information.  We don't have anything other than what porters report there.
[07:05] <UbUntUToUchLover> Hmmm... Well, thanks, anyway. I was just hoping for some answers. After all, I saw how you were talking to someone else about their tablet problems, and thought I might offer mine. Sorry for any problems I might have caused!
[07:07] <UbUntUToUchLover> I'll keep checking the website. Also, is it possible that I might get some answers from "wesnoth" via IRC?
[07:18] <mvo> bzoltan: this is something you will like: https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/click/chroot-15.04-multiarch/+merge/243493  - it should unblock you
[07:22] <nhaines> UbUntUToUchLover: no problems at all!  Unfortunately, the other person was also using an unsupported tablet.  :)
[07:22] <nhaines> UbUntUToUchLover: I have no idea who wesnoth is--maybe just a fan of the game?--so I don't have any useful advice other than to check the wiki and any links from there.
[07:23] <nhaines> And sorry I didn't respond faster.  I'm busy writing a book and every so often I stop being responsible and peek in here.  ;)
[07:24] <UbUntUToUchLover> No problem. Anyway, I figured as much, but isn't there also talk about an Ubuntu Touch image that is universal to various devices, even those not officially supported, or am I reading the news wrong?
[07:26] <UbUntUToUchLover> I think there should be one. I like Ubuntu that much. :-)
[07:27] <nhaines> The main filesystem is basically universal, but there needs to be hardware integration work for each and every single mobile platform before it can function on a platform.  That's because unlike IBM PC-based hardware, every ARM platform boots differently, has different graphics and sound and hardware, and so on.
[07:28] <nhaines> So for now a truly universal image is unfortunately unpossible.
[07:29] <UbUntUToUchLover> Hrm. I was afraid you'd tell me that.
[07:31] <UbUntUToUchLover> If you do enough web searching, you'll eventually find pictures of someone trying it out. I have tried it myself, but it was so buggy, I had to flash Cyanogenmod as quickly as possible!
[07:32] <nhaines> Yeah, even as much as everyone seems to love the Nexus 5, it's only working because the Nexus 7 2013 model had almost the exact same chipset.
[07:33] <nhaines> So after a year, it really hasn't gotten any better.  It mostly all works, but no Bluetooth support, which kind of makes it useless for a phone.
[07:34] <UbUntUToUchLover> Well, some of the problems I've found for this image are differently-sized apps. Some fill the screen and some take up only a third of the screen, as if some of them were made for a phablet instead of a tablet.
[07:36] <UbUntUToUchLover> The on-screen keyboard was the worst problem. Not only was it off to the side most of the time, my touches would sometimes activate what was BEHIND the keyboard, as if it had virtual holes!
[07:37] <UbUntUToUchLover> As for what you said about bluetooth, it works for Ubuntu on my Nook, although I haven't officially tested it.
[07:40] <UbUntUToUchLover> I've done research about this problem, but I'm at my wit's end. That's why when I saw the link to the IRC chat, I logged on as soon as possible. I've been following it ever since.
[07:42] <UbUntUToUchLover> Anyone else know about the ovation image? I've been discussing it with nhaines, but he's a little busy, right now.
[07:45] <UbUntUToUchLover> I'll check back later.
[07:54] <UbUntUToUchLover> Sorry, my IRC client crashed. I've been talking to people on #wesnoth (which is also a freenode channel), but they know nothing about it, either.
[08:14] <mvo> cjwatson, bzoltan: going further on the chroot creation for 15.04 I think we need to split ubuntu-sdk-libs-dev into -dev and -tools and the later will contain all the native arch tools like cmake,python3. then we install -libs:$targetarch, -libs-dev:$targetarch, -libs-tools:$native-arch - any thoughts or concerns about this approach?
[08:14] <dholbach> good morning
[08:15] <bzoltan> mvo: yeps
[08:15] <bzoltan> mvo:  the oxide in the silo13 is good, the arch specific conflict definition works
[08:16] <mvo> bzoltan: nice!
[08:16] <mvo> bzoltan: did you create a chroot? I was running into the problem that it pulled in py3:armhf but we really need py3:amd64 of course (same is going to happen for cmake) - this is why I think we want to split -dev into -dev and -tools so that we have a clean speration here, I prepared this already
[08:18] <justCarakas> Good morning all :)
[08:21] <bzoltan> mvo:  python is a troublemaker .. .but the ubuntu-sdk-libs installed without problem
[08:21] <bzoltan> mvo:  it seems we came to the same conclusion in the same minute :D
[08:22] <mvo> bzoltan: cool, I update the seeds and generate this new -tools package then
[08:23] <bzoltan> ogra_:  yes here :)
[08:23] <ogra_> heh
[08:24] <ogra_> bzoltan, well, seems mvo is on top of the issue
[08:24] <bzoltan> ogra_:  is it a custom for -dev packages to pull dev tools?
[08:24] <mvo> ogra_: what is the issue you see?
[08:24] <ogra_> no, usuall not
[08:24] <mvo> ogra_: I am on top of something :) not sure its the same though
[08:25] <ogra_> mvo, the issue ? that bzoltan pinged me in another channel and started the very same conversation with me :)
[08:25] <bzoltan> ogra_:  mvo: I am pretty much in the relaxed state of mind and I know what we are doing :)
[08:25] <ogra_> bzoltan, right, let mvo just handle it then :)
[08:26] <bzoltan> ogra_: mvo: we split the -lib-dev and make a tools package just for building .. no IDE stuff
[08:27] <mvo> bzoltan, ogra_: cool, yeah it looks like we are all on the same page
[08:27] <bzoltan> mvo:  yeps..  you have all rights to fix the seeds, right? Or do you want me to make an MR for it?
[08:28] <UbUntUToUchLover> Finally got IRC working right. Here's more proof of wesnoth's work, for anybody interested: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2406766&page=5
[08:29] <mvo> bzoltan: yeah, I have the required privs: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-touch.vivid/revision/269
[08:29] <bzoltan> mvo:  hehe :) I see you are already doingit
[08:29] <bzoltan> mvo:  you just changed between my two F5 hits ...:D cool, thanks
[08:30] <bzoltan> mvo:  that (ubuntu-html5-theme-examples) is deprecated
[08:30] <UbUntUToUchLover> There's pictures, links to images, and the little info I know about wesnoth.
[08:31] <bzoltan> mvo:  and you know what? We could add the new qt5-qmake-arm-linux-gnueabihf to that meta package
[08:32] <mvo> bzoltan: indeed
[08:32] <bzoltan> mvo:  so, there will not be need to do other mod in the click than add the ubuntu-sdk-tools in native to the chroot
[08:32] <mvo> bzoltan: yeah
[08:32] <mvo> bzoltan: nice that it comes together
[08:32] <bzoltan> \o/
[08:33] <bzoltan> mvo:  to be honest I was surprised that this odd conflict definition worked out ... it is actually documented exactly that way in the debian docs
[09:32] <mardy> marcustomlinson: ping
[09:32] <marcustomlinson> mardy: pong
[09:33] <mardy> marcustomlinson: in ubuntu-rtm, we see some requests for authentication coming from scoperunner (with the youtube scope)
[09:34] <mardy> marcustomlinson: these requests don't have the UI policy set to "no interaction", so they generate a snap decision
[09:35] <mardy> marcustomlinson: did you say that all the requests from the scope have the no-ui-policy flag set?
[09:36] <marcustomlinson> mardy: no, I use the default ui policy because of that issue where the scope can't subscribe to a signal that tells it "new token granted"
[09:36] <marcustomlinson> mardy: so there's no way for a running scope to know that it should ask for the token again
[09:37] <marcustomlinson> mardy: as far as I see it, if you remove that snap decision fallback, everything will just work (and work better)
[09:37] <marcustomlinson> mardy: we only expect the UI to show up from the dash process, and scopes show the need for a new token by returning a log-in button
[09:38] <marcustomlinson> mardy: so I think your change will not effect us
[09:38] <mardy> marcustomlinson: that will be equivalent to you setting the no-ui-policy
[09:38] <nhaines> I have a couple built in apps on ubuntu-rtm/14.09 r10 that had icons disappear in the Dash Apps scope at some point.  Does anyone want me to check anything about that before I reset the phone?
[09:39] <marcustomlinson> mardy: when will this change happen? do you have a branch/silo I can test?
[09:39] <mardy> marcustomlinson: I think that we will anyway do as you say (remove the snap decision path), but I'd rather have the clients migrate to the no-ui-policy first, so that they can do that at their own pace
[09:40] <mardy> marcustomlinson: you (the scopes) have a nice fallback on the dash, but I'm afraid that account-polld and sync-monitor are not ready for this change
[09:41] <mardy> marcustomlinson: so if you set the no-ui-policy bit, that would fix the issue with the scopes, without affecting the other projects (from which I haven't yet seen the snap decision, yet)
[09:42] <marcustomlinson> mardy: sure I understand. what kind of timeline are we talking here? When will your change happen?
[09:43] <mardy> marcustomlinson: so, we have a silo ready (#9 on ubuntu-rtm), maybe you could propose a MP for the no-ui-policy and we could add it to the same silo?
[09:44] <marcustomlinson> mardy: really really not that simple
[09:44] <marcustomlinson> mardy: I rely on the ui policy at the moment
[09:44] <mardy> marcustomlinson: but I think we don't see these issues in vivid... do you know why?
[09:44] <marcustomlinson> mardy: no idea
[09:45] <dbarth_> marcustomlinson: yes, if that makes sense, i was not seeing so many auth prompts while testing on vivid
[09:45] <mardy> marcustomlinson: but wait: if you set the no-ui-policy bit, you will get an error, and the scope will generate the "login" result for the dash
[09:45] <mardy> marcustomlinson: then when the user clicks that, the dash does the auth with the full ui; I think that this is already working, isn't it?
[09:46] <marcustomlinson> mardy: its complicated to explain it all, but essentially that scope relies on callbacks to get new tokens, it doesn't ask for the token every search like we decided on in Washington
[09:46] <marcustomlinson> mardy: I need to change the logic in Youtube, Vimeo and SoundCloud scopes
[09:47] <mardy> marcustomlinson: ah, I see :-/
[09:48] <mardy> marcustomlinson: can I help somehow?
[09:49] <marcustomlinson> mardy: I'll work on it today, but I can't guarantee you a speedy delivery
[09:50] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Make A Gift Day! :-D
[09:50] <mardy> marcustomlinson: whatever, you rock as usual :-)
[09:51] <marcustomlinson> :p
[09:51] <matv1> mardy fyi as you were helpfull on this before, I have reopened https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-system-settings-online-accounts/+bug/1389028
[09:52] <matv1> mardy i am not sure what we can still do at this point though
[09:55] <dholbach> pete-woods, do you know if https://code.launchpad.net/~dholbach/cmake-extras/1394648 is getting landed?
[09:56] <pete-woods> dholbach: Saviq is preparing a landing for some cmake-extras stuff right now
[09:56] <pete-woods> not sure about that MR
[09:56] <dholbach> ok...
[09:57] <Saviq> pete-woods, dholbach, yeah, that's the first that's going in
[09:57] <Saviq> (well, second, counting the sync from archive first)
[09:57] <dholbach> thanks
[09:57] <Saviq> vivid silo 1
[10:00] <mardy> matv1: weeeird
[10:00] <pete-woods> Saviq: is this MR already included in the archive sync? https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/cmake-extras/fix-xgettext/+merge/240092
[10:01] <Saviq> pete-woods, yes
[10:01] <matv1> mardy you are telling me :)
[10:01] <Saviq> pete-woods, this is actually already in the archive for some time now
[10:01] <pete-woods> Saviq: okay, cool, just wanted to check
[10:01] <pete-woods> will mark as merged
[10:01] <Saviq> pete-woods, https://code.launchpad.net/~saviq/cmake-extras/sync-archive/+merge/243505
[10:01] <Saviq> pete-woods, could get your ACK here then
[10:04] <Saviq> pete-woods, tx
[10:05] <Saviq> pete-woods, can I ask, what was the reason to add ALL?
[10:05] <Saviq> IMO this leads to crappy commits
[10:05] <Saviq> I'd rather see bug #1359667 fixed and do that there on release
[10:06] <matv1> mardy I am thinking there may be a more fundamental corruption in the U1 account. So maybe just ditching the entire account might just be a solution.
[10:06] <pete-woods> Saviq: the people using the macro weren't happy/capable of running cmake targets manually
[10:06] <Saviq> pete-woods, oh interesting
[10:06] <matv1> mardy but a) I am not too keen on that and b) that would prevent us from troubleshooting in the future.
[10:07] <mardy> matv1: it would be interesting to see exactly at what time it's disappearing
[10:07] <matv1> mardy why?
[10:11] <mardy> matv1: ok, I watched your video again
[10:11] <seb128> is the phone (rtm image) supposed to get poll notifications from fb messenger?
[10:12] <mardy> matv1: the account creation actually failed, but for some reason the U1 account was shown in the UI
[10:12] <mardy> matv1: I think the U1 account plugin is doing something weird, I'll comment on the bug
[10:13] <matv1> mardy sorry i do not think that is right
[10:13] <marcustomlinson> mardy: can I rather leave the ui policy as default? I'd really like the shell to reuse the same method
[10:13] <mardy> matv1: can you please do this test: create the U1 account, then exit from the system settings, then reopen it and check if the account is still there
[10:13] <marcustomlinson> mardy: so essentially, from scope its the equivalent of no_ui_policy, and the shell continues to work as is
[10:13] <matv1> mardy sure give me a minute!
[10:14] <marcustomlinson> mardy: both shell and scope use the same OnlineAccountClient API you see
[10:15] <mardy> marcustomlinson: I see... well, I'm not too confident on fixing it on our side right now, I'm afraid it might break some other uses cases
[10:16] <marcustomlinson> mardy: it kinda over complicates things for us
[10:16] <mardy> marcustomlinson: can't you add a method which takes a flag for it, and make the current API just wrap it (so that the scopes won't change), and make the dash use the new method?
[10:17] <mardy> marcustomlinson: I understand that it complicates the things, but I also see it as the right thing to do: the scope doesn't want UI, so it should specify that
[10:17] <marcustomlinson> mardy: actually I do want UI. you're taking it away fomr me ;)
[10:19] <marcustomlinson> mardy: the only way to do what you're saying is to construct the OnlineAccountClient class with this flag.  "DONT USE THIS!"
[10:20] <matv1> mardy U1 account is stil there after leaving/restarting system settings. That was as I expected as again: only installing these 2 apps cause U1 account to crash. If i choose any other app, it installs fine.
[10:21] <matv1> mardy so that must mean that U1 account is registered correctly
[10:22] <mardy> matv1: no, actually I just saw that later in your video, when you go to the store to install the app, it brings you to the system settings again, and there the U1 account is no longer there
[10:22] <mardy> matv1: I'll comment on the bug
[10:24] <mardy> marcustomlinson: no, of course you shouldn't do that. The other option of course is duplicating the OnlineAccountClient library, but let's see what dbarth_ thinks
[10:24] <matv1> mardy yes but that was caused by trying to install one of the 'bad' apps. If  I had installed any other app, the install would have gone fine and the U1 account would still have been there.
[10:24] <mardy> matv1: this really cannot depend on the app; it must be just a coincidence
[10:25] <matv1> mardy i know how weird it sounds believe me
[10:25] <matv1> but then how am i able to replicate it almost every time
[10:25] <mardy> dbarth_: so, solving the issue in the scopes is rather tedious; shall I just drop the snap-decision code path in ussoa?
[10:27] <mardy> matv1: maybe the deletion of the account happens by a background process, and it's not really depending on the app you want to install
[10:27] <dbarth_> mardy: just reading the logs
[10:29] <matv1> mardy I can really do this 10 times in a row with either of the 2 apps, and when i do it with any other, the U1 account survives and the app installs. I kid you not. That looks to me like there is a relation
[10:30] <matv1> mardy anyhow if you need anything else. Even using my U1 creds if needed. let me know. And thnks!
[10:35] <mardy> matv1: I added a comment; it may be a timing issue. Maybe the account gets deleted after N seconds
[10:39] <matv1> mardy great! lets hope ubuntuone-credentials can spot something. thnks again.
[11:15] <ogra-mobile> sil2100, i have a complete internet breakdown over here, sorry for missing the meeting
[11:15] <ogra-mobile> asac ^^^^
[11:16] <asac> ogra-mobile: no problem
[11:16] <asac> ogra-mobile: ping us when back online :)
[11:17] <ogra-mobile> yeah, will do ... i wish i could get more than edge
[11:17] <ogra-mobile> my krillin sucks indoors here
[11:22] <sil2100> Oh my!
[12:00] <Sujeet_Hinge> hi
[12:01] <Sujeet_Hinge> any1
[12:01] <Sujeet_Hinge> ???
[12:02] <Sujeet_Hinge> wanna know how to installthe latest stable image on ubuntu emulator
[12:10] <bzoltan> mvo:  could you find somebody to approve the new seeds?
[12:50] <mvo> bzoltan: see #ubuntu-devel, any archive admin can approve it
[12:59] <jdstrand> nhaines: fyi, data encryption is being worked on. also, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityAndPrivacySettings/ProtectingUserData
[14:32] <zyga> beuno: hey
[14:33] <beuno> zyga, hi
[14:33] <zyga> beuno: we (the canonical cert team) would like to upload checkbox touch 1.0.1 to the store, it's in the com.canonical namespace, it's an unconfined application
[14:33] <zyga> beuno: I heard you're the person to talk to
[14:33] <zyga> beuno: the app works on kryllin and nexus 7 and is all open source and available for general consumption
[14:34] <zyga> beuno: the app is designed as a post-sales support app for $secret_operator_name
[14:34] <zyga> beuno: if we release 1.0.1 click package today, could we ask you to look at it and tell us how that works?
[14:34] <zyga> +
[14:35] <beuno> well
[14:36] <beuno> jdstrand would review the app from a security perspective
[14:36] <zyga> ok
[14:36] <beuno> and approve it on the store
[14:36] <beuno> I'm not sure who currently owns the com.canonical namespace
[14:36] <zyga> ok, one thing, who do I send it to? I cannot upload it as it's com.canonical
[14:36] <beuno> popey may know
[14:36] <zyga> to you or jdstrand?
[14:36] <zyga> ok, we'll release that to launchpad
[14:36] <popey> mirv or balloons can
[14:37] <zyga> and I'll send an email out to all three of you, CCing my manager
[14:37] <zyga> ok
[14:37] <zyga> thanks!
[14:37] <zyga> :-)
[14:37] <popey> actually
[14:37] <popey> no
[14:37] <popey> we upload com.ubuntu
[14:37] <zyga> oh
[14:37] <popey> one moment
[14:37] <zyga> do you want us to change the app to .com.ubuntu then?
[14:37] <popey> wait 1
[14:37] <zyga> currently we use...
[14:37] <zyga> ok
[14:37] <zyga> com.canonical.certification.checkbox-touch
[14:38] <popey> zyga: looking at my device the only com.canonical packages are scopes and payui, all the rest are com.ubuntu
[14:38] <zyga> popey: ok, sounds good to me
[14:38] <zyga> popey: the app is a generic test shell shipping the ubuntu touch test collection so that's even better
[14:38] <zyga> popey: I'll corret the namespace
[14:39] <jgdx> mpt, hi, do you know when you'll get a look at bug 1379850? I'm at the point where the spec fails me.
[14:44] <zyga> popey: is there a policy that we should adhere to
[14:44] <zyga> popey: we're okay to make the change but we'd rather do that knowing exactly so that we don't need to undo it later
[14:45] <popey> zyga: for everyone else it's com.ubuntu.developer.<developername>.<appname>
[14:45] <popey> we have some which are com.ubuntu.<appname> but those are core / pre-installed apps
[14:45] <zyga> popey: our app is a team developed app
[14:46] <zyga> popey: but that's about the <developername>.<appname> or <appname>, I'm more interested in .canonical vs .ubuntu
[14:46] <popey> i explained canonical vs ubuntu already...
[14:46] <popey> the only canonical ones are scopes and payui
[14:46] <popey> the rest are ubuntu
[14:47] <sergiusens> popey: zyga webapps are com.ubuntu.developer.[web app launchpad team] fwiw
[14:48] <popey> zyga: whats the team name?
[14:48] <zyga> popey: checkbox-dev
[14:48] <zyga> popey: or cert+infra (not sure what's the team name is now)
[14:48] <popey> will there be more than one checkbox app?
[14:48] <zyga> popey: the code is owned by checkbox-dev
[14:49] <zyga> popey: it's not likely, we want to make that app play nice on all devices
[14:49] <zyga> popey: it will probably drop "touch" some time later
[14:49] <zyga> popey: and will be used on the desktop as well
[14:49] <popey> so com.ubuntu.checkbox then is what I'd use.
[14:51] <zyga> popey: okay, that sounds good to me
[14:51] <zyga> popey: thanks
[15:18] <jdstrand> fyi, if it is in com.canonical, we can wave it through
[15:18] <jdstrand> (ie, unconfined is ok)
[15:19] <mpt> jgdx, unfortunately it’s #17 on my list at the moment
[15:19] <jdstrand> the manual review will always be triggered of course, but we can get it in easily
[15:21] <jgdx> mpt, right, but you're so efficient so that must mean it's done by, what, Friday?
[15:24] <mpt> jgdx, something like that ;-)
[15:27] <ogra_> yay
[15:33] <taiebot> Does login on the here maps web-app work? i have tried few times but it does not seem to work.
[15:35] <oSoMoN> Mirv, in case you want to rebuild webbrowser-app for Qt 5.4: https://code.launchpad.net/~osomon/webbrowser-app/qt54/+merge/243551
[16:07] <viejotren> Hi, I'm working with ubuntu-sdk and with thje scope template, I did some modifications, such as images, colors and some options, but for some reasons those changes are not displayed, I rebuilt the project already, am i missing something?
[16:45] <mvo> bzoltan: https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/click/chroot-15.04-multiarch/+merge/243493 - works for me now
[16:46] <bzoltan> mvo: I check it in a sec
[16:46] <mvo> bzoltan: no rush, but if it works I can land it tomorrow morning or later tonight
[16:46] <bzoltan> mvo:  OK
[16:46] <mvo> bzoltan: but I'm really happy with the solutionn, feels very clean now
[16:47] <bzoltan> mvo:  yes it feels better now.
[16:52] <bzoltan> mvo:  could you please push an other change into the sdk-tools to contain the cross qmake?
[17:13] <taiebot> Blabble is broken on my phone. Its weird i used to have it installed but no it appears not there. so when i try to install it it fails.
[17:46] <popey> ogra_: I've been tempted to get a OnePlus phone to try and go through the porting guide steps
[17:48] <ogra_> popey, oh god
[17:49] <ogra_> i guess there will be many many roadblocks ...
[17:49] <ogra_> but doing a port is the only way to get it back in shape
[17:57] <rodney77> Hi, do you guys have a list of devices that support ubuntu touch? Is it still just nexus devices?
[18:00] <popey> ogra_: yeah, but at least there's an AOSP build, which helps, and I think it's MKT
[18:00] <ogra_> ah, if you have an AOSP tree that shouldnt be to hard at least, yeah
[18:03] <popey> what I don't have is the device ☻
[18:03] <popey> need an invite
[18:07] <nerochiaro> alesage: hi, any news on how to add code coverage to that branch I mentioned to you yesterday ?
[18:08] <nerochiaro> alesage: if you find out can you please send me an email ? i won't be online in the next few days
[18:08] <nerochiaro> thanks
[18:08] <alesage> nerochiaro, ok--sorry, slipped my mind, will do this week :)
[18:08] <nerochiaro> alesage: much appreciated
[18:08] <alesage> nerochiaro, and send a mail/bug
[19:56] <nhaines> jdstrand: vague, handwavey plans that aren't prioritised doesn't make Ubuntu Touch more secure than Android today, when a novice user has a tablet in his hands and is asking which OS should he flash to be secure.
[19:57] <lotuspsychje> security is a vague conecept...the moment you get online its a risk
[20:01] <dobey> that's why i live in a cave and don't use phones or the internet at all
[20:01] <lotuspsychje> lol
[21:22] <tester> hi
[22:04] <jdstrand> nhaines: that was harsh. they aren't vague handwavy plans-- it is something being designed now
[22:05] <jdstrand> so, no, there is no fs encryption no, but yes, there will be
[23:52] <nhaines> jdstrand: Features get postponed all the time and who knows when something designed now will see a phone (July?).  I always advise people to make decisions based on features present and not features promised.
[23:54] <nhaines> So while I'm looking forward to full-device encryption (which will almost certainly be solid and secure), it has to ship before I use it as a feature bulletpoint with users.


[01:33] <hassletime> hey all
[03:10] <lotuspsychje> good morning
 "good morning" <- 👋 good morning
[03:23] <lotuspsychje> howdy ilvipero
[08:54] <gonix> hi
[08:54] <arraybolt3> ello
[17:43]  * luna used plain Ubuntu at the new job for the first time today :)
[18:13] <leftyfb> luna: how did you like it?
[18:14] <luna> leftyfb, worked good for what i used it for
[18:15] <arraybolt3> I'm silly - any time I hear someone say that some particular flavor of Ubuntu is working for them, I want to switch to that flavor :P I'm already planning to hop from Ubuntu Unity to Kubuntu sometime in the near future.
[18:18] <beardedgnu> hi
[18:18] <beardedgnu> anyone got any ideas .. inspiration.. tweaks... improving performance
[18:23] <arraybolt3> beardedgnu: Meh, I generally don't mess with performance tweaks beyond maybe setting my CPU into Performance mode if the flavor I'm on offers that feature.
[18:24] <arraybolt3> (Some advice for performance improvements, like disabling security mitigations, can cause way more trouble than it's worth.)
[18:24] <beardedgnu> well if you do that.... enable pstates
[18:24] <beardedgnu> youd like to have my setup? im pushing for max benchmarks
[18:24] <leftyfb> beardedgnu: you should also point out, according to your PM to me, that you're not actually running Ubuntu
[18:24] <beardedgnu> toxic alert
[18:24] <beardedgnu> whos this guy
[18:25] <arraybolt3> I guess this is for discussion of Ubuntu, so we don't really care what OS you're running, but tricks that you use to improve performance on one distro might not work on Ubuntu, that's all.
[18:25] <arraybolt3> (They might work, too.)
[18:26] <leftyfb> beardedgnu: #ubuntu and #ubuntu-discuss are channels for Ubuntu support and discuss respectively. Hence "Ubuntu" being in the name of the channel. You would be better served in #linux or #linux-offtopic to discuss your distro, custom or not
[18:27] <beardedgnu> i didnt even name what distro im running youre just seeking something hallucinatory to call me out on
[18:28] <beardedgnu> ignore. bye
[18:28] <arraybolt3> beardedgnu: Please remain respectful as per the Ubuntu Code of Conduct if you intend to use this room or any of the Ubuntu IRC channels.
[18:28] <leftyfb> [13:20:29] <beardedgnu> i have full userspace script plus my custom kernel.. which is a combination of clear linux xanmod and me. theres no faster stuff out there
[18:28] <arraybolt3> (Also ignoring regular members can make things go south if someone calls operators.)
[18:28] <beardedgnu> the fact is this toxic guy just wants to lash out and im not trolling cause im outspoken. seeking sneaky ways to do so.
[18:30] <leftyfb> beardedgnu: there's been no lashing out or anything toxic. I'm just pointing out that your discussion about your custom distro which isn't based on or related to Ubuntu in any way is not an appropriate topic for #ubuntu nor #ubuntu-discuss
[18:30] <arraybolt3> He's not lashing out, he has a point. The room is for discussion of Ubuntu. Clear Linux is probably awesome, but it's not Ubuntu, and that's not what this channel is for. I'd get given warnings and the like if I brought Ubuntu optimization into the Arch Linux room too, since that's not what that room is for.
[18:30] <leftyfb> beardedgnu: I've given you more appropriate channels which would be more receptive to your discussion
[18:30] <beardedgnu> its kernel  not distro
[18:31] <beardedgnu> probably he doesnt know the difference between kernel and distro...
[18:31] <arraybolt3> beardedgnu: Clear Linux is a distro separate from Ubuntu.
[18:31] <beardedgnu> cl has a kernel as well that can run on any distro. you know that
[18:31] <arraybolt3> Unless you mean you built the Clear Linux kernel for Ubuntu, which is still not really recommended but that would make sense.
[18:31] <beardedgnu> yes but already got judged with assumptions
[18:32] <arraybolt3> beardedgnu: And don't assume people know everything. I don't study Clear Linux, and I'm in the Ubuntu room. This is the very reason we keep things Ubuntu-related in this room. Would you please stop disrupting, insulting, and being generally mean?
[18:32] <beardedgnu> as usual here right>?  nothing new
[18:32] <beardedgnu> i just made some stuff which benches 13 times faster hackbench right
[18:32] <beardedgnu> sharing is caring right?
[18:32] <beardedgnu> thats the thanks you get nowadays for contributing
[18:32] <leftyfb> beardedgnu: what release of ubuntu is it running on?
[18:36] <beardedgnu> besides the point. im just wondering... im seeking ideas or any tweaks something i might have missed if anyone has any clue. im making my stuff compatible over many distros. so anything that works in ubuntu i can incorporate
[18:37] <arraybolt3> beardedgnu: What release of Ubuntu are you using this setup on?
[18:45] <leftyfb> beardedgnu: if you want to contribute, it would be helpful to add to or create a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ detailing all the ways you suggest others to improve their performance on Ubuntu (sans custom kernel)
[18:45] <leftyfb> !wiki | beardedgnu
[22:35] <Jeremy31> leftyfb: Did that command for the wireless script request a sudo password in terminal for you
[22:35] <leftyfb> yeah, that's one issue with it I keep forgetting about. My machine is setup not to ask
[22:37] <Jeremy31> I am not sure if chmod +x is still needed on it or not.  I should look at the code to see if it looks for some of the new rtw88 and rtw89 modules
[22:38] <leftyfb> it's needed regardless of the contents, unless you just call it with bash
[22:41] <Jeremy31> Hasn't been updated in 3 years, so rtw88 and 89 need to be added.  I will see if Wild Man on the forums can push my commits later
[22:42] <leftyfb> we should make it more of a general data-collection tool
[22:42] <leftyfb> like inxi but without having to install it
[22:43] <leftyfb> also add the ability to pipe the output like to nc and not have to write out a file or pop up the messages
[22:43] <leftyfb> wget script -O - | bash | nc termbin.om 9999
[22:44] <leftyfb> and suggest to users to just login as root to run it, though that's generally not good advice
[22:44] <Jeremy31> leftyfb: general info like https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2465764&highlight=inspired
[22:46] <leftyfb> jeeze
[22:46] <leftyfb> some time was spent on this
[22:47] <Jeremy31> I think the original date on the wireless script was 2012
[22:50] <leftyfb> the system-info gathers good info, but the UX for it needs to be improved
[22:50] <leftyfb> similarly to what I mentioned about the wireless-info script
[22:52] <Jeremy31> I think I remember some talk about not making it fairly private and non invasive.  It would be easy to have it upload to termbin
[23:42] <Jeremy31> leftyfb: first changes https://github.com/jeremyb31/wireless-info/raw/master/wireless-info


[04:45] <Sarvatt> anyone around that would be willing to review and/or sponsor xserver-xorg-video-intel from this bug into maverick-proposed by any chance? https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/654876
[04:45] <ubot4`> Launchpad bug 654876 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu Maverick) (and 2 other projects) "[Sandybridge] Attempting to use Xv textured video hangs the system. (affects: 1) (heat: 177)" [High,In progress]
[04:46] <Sarvatt> I'm waiting to hear back from slangasek about an exception to get it in even though there is a freeze on -proposed for linaro