[02:07] <deanna> hey yall
[02:07] <deanna> anyone here
[02:07] <deanna> i need some information please
[02:07] <kut> yap
[02:08] <deanna> how do I get my sound back after upgrading to 9.10
[02:08] <deanna> it was there for aminute
[02:08] <deanna> but then went by the waqy saide
[02:08] <deanna> :)
[02:08] <deanna> Hmmm
[02:10] <kut> have you checked the forums?
[02:10] <mhall119> also try asking in #ubuntu
[02:10] <deanna> well if anybody has a clue and can help a poor girl out let me know
[02:10] <deanna> what is that may aI ask
[02:11] <stooj> deanna: #ubuntu is the best place for support questions
[02:12] <deanna> can ya please tell me
[02:12] <deanna> I am really slow
[02:12] <deanna> I just finally figured out how to install upgrades :-)
[02:12] <deanna> so i am in the right place
[02:13] <deanna> hello
[02:13] <mhall119> deanna: there is a support channel for Ubuntu
[02:13] <mhall119> it is #ubuntu
[02:13] <mhall119> that is where the people most likely to be able to help you will be
[02:13] <stooj> Hi deanna - what programme are you using to talk to us here?
[02:13] <deanna> not the #ubuntu-classroom
[02:14] <deanna> ubuntu 9.10\
[02:14] <stooj> No
[02:14] <mhall119> empathy then, probably
[02:14] <deanna> the newset one and thee only one that o\worked with ethernet
[02:14] <running_rabbit07> xchat?
[02:14] <deanna> how do i find it
[02:14] <running_rabbit07> empathy?
[02:14] <mhall119> I think empathy
[02:14] <stooj> Try typing /j #ubuntu
[02:14] <mhall119> I don't think xchat comes in 9.10
[02:15] <deanna> im in 9.1
[02:15] <mhall119> stooj: empathy doesn't understand /commands
[02:15] <running_rabbit07> nope, I had to install it
[02:15] <deanna> in the terminal
[02:15] <deanna> stooj?
[02:15] <stooj> Bah. Just setting up an empathy IRC account so I can figure it out
[02:15] <stooj> deanna: no
[02:15] <deanna> k tanks
[02:15] <stooj> Sorry, don't worry about tht command
[02:15] <deanna> let me know
[02:15] <stooj> Will find you the correct way
[02:15] <mhall119> deanna: go to Room->Join Room
[02:16] <deanna> Thanks
[02:16] <mhall119> sorry, join new
[02:16] <deanna> k here does it day room
[02:16] <mhall119> select IRC from the drop-down
[02:16] <deanna> say*
[02:16] <mhall119> and type #ubuntu for the room name
[02:17] <deanna> i think im there lol
[02:17] <stooj> Beat me to it, mhall119
[02:17] <deanna> Thanks and i also will stay here if yall find an answer :-0 MUCH APPRECITAED
[02:18] <deanna> LUV UBUNTU LOL
[02:18] <running_rabbit07> you are not from lynchburg are ya?
[02:18] <deanna> lol no
[02:18] <deanna> Michigan hick here lol
[02:19] <deanna> it also says that i was rebrouted
[02:19] <deanna> outt of #UBUNTU
[02:19] <running_rabbit07> k, got a sister inlaw there, she been saying she was gonna load Ubuntu for years
[02:19] <deanna> rerouted*
[02:19] <deanna> I recently puchased my laptop with it on it
[02:19] <running_rabbit07> sweet
[02:20] <deanna> and I have been wqiting for the day I can find sumthing else
[02:20] <stooj> Awesome deanna
[02:20] <running_rabbit07> Ubuntu is great, once tweaked
[02:20] <kut> like any OS
[02:21] <deanna> but then 9.10 cam eout
[02:21] <deanna> an d i could get online again
[02:21] <deanna> exactly kut
[02:21] <running_rabbit07> once you get your sound fixed, come here and ask for some pointers to make that thing work better for ya
[02:21] <deanna> yea and i was ready to delete it cause icouldnt figure it out
[02:21] <deanna> but like ai said
[02:21] <deanna> i am a wee slow on techno things
[02:21] <deanna> i am totally wanting to learn it
[02:22] <running_rabbit07> just takes some time and effort, mostly gotta ask the right questions at the right time
[02:22] <deanna> yes it does
[02:22] <deanna> AND determintation
[02:22] <deanna> LOL
[02:22] <deanna> which i have sometimes :-)
[02:23] <running_rabbit07> It took me a few weeks to get it down.
[02:23] <stooj> OK, deanna - have you read this: http://psychocats.net/ubuntu/
[02:23] <running_rabbit07> great site
[02:23] <deanna> WHAT IS THE COMMAND TO FIND OUT WHAT SOUND EVICES ARE INSTALLED
[02:23] <deanna> sorry caps
[02:23] <stooj> deanna: Recommended reading when you're starting out
[02:23] <deanna> im missing fingers
[02:23] <deanna> I totally will
[02:23] <deanna> bookmarked it :-)
[02:24] <stooj> Deanna: Also, try joining #ubuntu again
[02:24] <running_rabbit07> in the stsatus icon in the upper right, does the speaker have a red x?
[02:24] <deanna> k but it says if i leave somehting bad will happen lol
[02:26] <running_rabbit07> deanna, have you set up a Ubuntuforums.org account yet?
[02:26] <deanna> yes
[02:26] <deanna> i think so the main ubuntulinux.org
[02:27] <deanna> let me try
[02:27] <running_rabbit07> it may be a bit slower, but you may get better results there
[02:27] <deanna> AHH yes i have
[02:27] <deanna> lol
[02:27] <deanna> for my ethernet a few weeks ago lol
[02:27] <deanna> i was left confused :-)
[02:27] <running_rabbit07> happens sometimes
[02:27] <deanna> what should i search for
[02:28] <running_rabbit07> what system are you using?
[02:28] <deanna> i have tried no sound and it said too general
[02:28] <deanna> ubuntu 9.10
[02:28] <deanna> karmic kaola
[02:28] <running_rabbit07> use google search to find answers in ubuntuforums
[02:28] <deanna> k
[02:28] <akk> ha, "no sound" will get you thousands of threads.
[02:28] <deanna> yea it said too generall
[02:28] <deanna> LOL
[02:28] <running_rabbit07> such as "ubuntu 9.10 audio problems
[02:29] <akk> It's an all too common linux problem, alas.
[02:29] <deanna> awesome
[02:29] <deanna> tanks i will try it out
[02:29] <deanna> :-)
[02:29] <stooj> deanna: Also, there is a Michigan Ubuntu user group that will probably be able to help
[02:29] <running_rabbit07> if you include ubuntu, it will almost always take you to a thread that can help
[02:29] <deanna> thats cool
[02:29] <stooj> deanna: If you join #ubuntu-us-mi you will find them
[02:29] <akk> maybe 9.10 OR karmic -- a lot of people post about releases by name, not number
[02:29] <running_rabbit07> akk: true
[02:30] <akk> (I always use the name when blogging problems/workarounds)
[02:30] <deanna> im so inspired that i got the ethernet going by myself I HAVE FAITH IN MYSELF LOL with help of corse
[02:32] <running_rabbit07> deanna: http://wwww.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1311206
[02:33] <running_rabbit07> it may be helpful
[02:33] <deanna> k
[02:34] <deanna> installing gnome alsamixer is that a bad thing?
[02:34] <deanna> im afraid i may do too much and clog my machine
[02:35] <running_rabbit07> alsamixer isn't very big
[02:36] <running_rabbit07> 610k
[02:37] <running_rabbit07> need the command or can ya find it in Syanaptic Package Manager/
[02:37] <running_rabbit07> ?
[02:37] <stooj> extra w in that link running_rabbit07
[02:38] <stooj> Hah! Still resolves though :)
[02:38] <running_rabbit07> just copied and pasted, didn't even notice
[02:39] <running_rabbit07> that's odd, just looked and every link I was clicking had the wwww in it
[02:41] <running_rabbit07> I am glad Ubuntu is smart enough to fix my what my fingers can't
[03:19] <manlycoffee> Hi
[03:21] <running_rabbit07> burnt coffee?
[03:36] <manlycoffee> Hi
[03:55] <Shalendar[ubuntu> hello?
[03:56] <Shalendar[ubuntu> my 9.10 update screwed up. grub issue
[03:56] <jtatum> Shalendar[ubuntu, ask in #ubuntu
[03:56] <Shalendar[ubuntu> ooooookay
[03:57] <Shalendar[ubuntu> #ubuntu
[03:57] <Shalendar[ubuntu> ok, how do i get there
[03:57] <jtatum>  /join #ubuntu
[03:57] <Shalendar[ubuntu> thanks
[04:01] <jm2> Hi Nathon
[04:52] <stooj> Is #ubuntu-classroom always filled with so many support requests?
[04:59] <Animagladius> Night! :)
[05:16] <schithen> Hello, is there anyone who can help me? I have a hp dv6-1030us and installed ubuntu 9.10 and can't get my wireless card working
[05:26] <stooj> schithen: This isn't a support channel - you'll have better luck with #ubuntu or your local ubuntu-loco channel
[06:03] <thesheff17> I have a Atheros Communications Inc. AR9285 Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (rev 01)
[06:03] <thesheff17> with the new ubuntu 9.10
[06:04] <thesheff17> and I just can't get the wireless to work
[06:04] <thesheff17> I have also installed the backports
[06:07] <Treenaks> Does the machine have a wifi on/off switch? is it on?
[06:07] <Treenaks> Atheros wifi should work out of the box afaik
[06:14] <thesheff17_> it does not have a wireless switch
[06:14] <thesheff17_> I wish it did :-/
[06:15] <thesheff17_> also I have tried this post http://www.jfwhome.com/2009/08/06/perfect-ubuntu-jaunty-on-the-asus-eeepc-1005ha-and-1008ha/
[06:15] <thesheff17_> and it doesn't work
[06:16] <thesheff17_> I don't get how this works for jaunty but not karmica
[06:16] <thesheff17_> doesn't make sense
[07:13] <michaelanthony> hello?
[07:13] <michaelanthony> is anyone there?
[07:13] <michaelanthony> i'm a neewb in serious need of help wit my ubunto
[07:14] <michaelanthony> is anyone there?
[07:14] <michaelanthony> I just need to know how and  if I need to partition my Vista 64 bit OS
[07:21] <Prakhar> need to install STA broadcom driver in karmic
[07:46] <AlanBell> just looking at the schedule for today
[07:46] <AlanBell> what is WIOS?
[07:48] <AlanBell> can't imagine it is the radio station for old people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIOS
[07:49] <stooj> Women In Open Source AlanBell
[07:50] <AlanBell> ah ok thanks
[07:50] <stooj> Not a problem
[07:54] <AlanBell> I expanded the abbreviation on the wiki
[08:08] <MenZa> AlanBell: probably a good call
[08:09]  * MenZa did not know until he read up on it, either
[08:27]  * gnomeye is working
[08:39] <ethos101> test
[08:40] <Balsaq> loud-n-clear
[08:42] <ethos101> this empathy client isnt very IRC friendly... looking.
[08:43] <MarkDude> ethos101,  empathy is not that great. x-chat works ok
[08:44] <ethos101> im trying to include IRC in my IM.  I might try pidgin in a minute
[08:45] <MarkDude> there is a funny workaround to get empathy irc friendly
[08:45] <ethos101> workaround you say?
[08:46] <MarkDude> yes rww showed me how to do it last week.
[08:46] <ethos101> i had mirc running under wine but it's a little buggy for my taste.  it was wine beta though.
[08:47] <ethos101> whats the workaround
[08:48] <MarkDude> just a sec im looking googling - its someting funky
[08:54] <rosemary> hi
[08:56] <MarkDude> hello
[08:59] <rosemary> hi
[09:01] <ethos101> well, pidgins about the same.  both like to crash often
[09:11] <gnomeye> ethos101: pidgin crashes? when? not so often like empathy... never
[09:13] <ethos101> initially when i set up irc connection it did
[09:20] <mikey_> hey guys..now that ive updated to the new Ubuntu version, I cant access my favourite browser game...no idea why (im not very technical!)
[09:20] <Treenaks> which browser game is it?
[09:20] <Treenaks> mikey_, also, support is in #ubuntu
[09:21] <mikey_> nodiatis, its called (can I give address?)
[09:21] <mikey_> ok, well ill go there if ye cant help me?
[09:22] <Treenaks> Does the game not show up at all, or is it something else (can't click on it?)?
[09:23] <mikey_> it loads
[09:23] <mikey_> but cannot connect to the server
[09:23] <mikey_> it was fine in last release
[09:23] <Treenaks> I have no idea, sorry. Try on #ubuntu, they might know
[09:24] <mikey_> ok I will, thanks for your time anyway :-)
[09:32] <marek__> anybody here?
[09:33] <Xiella> marek__: classes are over for now, I think there's about 4-5 hours til the next class?
[09:35] <marek__> I have one question about ubuntu instaling
[09:35] <gnomeye> Xiella: at 1500 UTC
[09:37] <Xiella> gnomeye: Ah, that's right...  11 pm for me so i just think of start time as 4 am...
[09:37] <Xiella> marek__: you might find more response in #ubuntu
[09:44] <nik> hello is there anybody in here?
[09:45] <gnomeye> yes 216 people
[09:45] <gnomeye> hi ni
[09:45] <gnomeye> hi nik
[09:46] <dimple148> Hello i need help with my new installation of Ubuntu 9.10
[09:46] <gnomeye> dimple148: you may ask in #ubuntu
[09:46] <gnomeye> they might help you
[09:46] <dimple148> ok thx
[09:48] <nik> why can't i join #ubuntu?
[09:56] <Dinozex> hey
[09:56] <Dinozex> i got my disktop icons disappeared suddenly
[09:57] <nalioth> Dinozex: support is in #ubuntu  :)
[09:57] <Dinozex> thanks
[10:20] <AFO_> Hello everyone
[10:21] <AFO_> I have question..
[10:21] <gnomeye> AFO_:  support is in #ubuntu
[10:22] <gnomeye> you're welcome
[12:02] <leedrag0n> hey everyone
[14:12] <dox_drum> Hi pl!
[14:20] <lovol> hello
[14:21] <lovol> does anybody know how to get the software centre to work behind a http firewall? (I've never used ubuntu before, but testing it in a Virtual box on Win7)
[14:22] <AntoniTen> Do you have internet conectivity from inside the virtualbox?
[14:22] <lovol> yep, I'm using ubuntu now!
[14:23] <lovol> does it need more than just http forwarding/proxying do you think?
[14:23] <AntoniTen> Does it restrict what ports can access the net?
[14:23] <pleia2> lovol: you'll want to go to #ubuntu for support :)
[14:23] <lovol> no restrictions, other than it only forwards http requests (can;t get the ftp to work with freeproxy :(
[14:23] <pleia2> we'll be starting up sessions again here in about 35 minutes
[14:24] <lovol> ahh right, i see this is a classroom, what gets tought here? is  there a cylabus??
[14:24] <pleia2> lovol: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[14:24] <pleia2> that's the schedule for this week
[14:25] <Jesi-Idle> ok, yeah you'll want to go to #Ubuntu because this channel is going to be busy here soon, but try opening up all the ports for a minute or two to see if it's a port problem
[14:26] <lovol> cool, the reason I wanted ubuntu was to develop on it ( I'm a M$ sucker at the mo) and that start in 35 mins :)
[14:26] <erno> hello,is xorg.conf in etc/X11 still for setting graphic?i have problem with standard settings on ubuntu 9.10.My hardware supports resolution 1024x768 100 HZ, but i dont have choice in "windowed" settings...i try configure xorg.conf but nothing happens...please help me if  you know...
[14:26] <pleia2> erno: please head into #ubuntu for support
[14:26] <pleia2> lovol: great! :)
[14:30] <AntoniTen> UTC.equals(GMT+0)?
[14:30] <FFEMTcJ> AntoniTen: yes
[14:30] <AntoniTen> thanks
[14:33] <Dig> test
[14:39] <mhall1191work> AntoniTen: you can run "date -u" on the command line to see current UTC time
[14:47] <sebsebseb> hi
[14:49] <Sassinak_> Must be some week. Nobody answering me on forum
[14:52] <Sassinak__> am I here or not?
[14:53] <sebsebseb> Sassinak__: yes your in here
[14:56] <Kmos> hi folks
[15:00] <pleia2> we'll be starting sessions in a minute, so I'm going to go ahead and moderate the channel now, please take questions and discussion to #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
[15:00] <dholbach> HELLO EVERYBODY!
[15:00] <dholbach> I'm here with a fantastic developer and a great friend: James "james_w" Westby
[15:01] <james_w> hello
[15:01] <dholbach> James and I will run a double-session block today
[15:01] <dholbach> the first part of it will get you started with Ubuntu Development - getting your development environment set up and everything
[15:02] <dholbach> in the second part we'll dive head-first in some real-life activity and fix some Ubuntu bugs
[15:02] <dholbach> if you could please prefix your questions with QUESTION: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat - that'd be nice
[15:02] <dholbach> ie: QUESTION: james_w: I heard you're a great DJ - is that true?
[15:02] <dholbach> thanks in advance. :-)
[15:02] <dholbach> james_w: ready? :)
[15:03] <dholbach> alright... one page you absolutely should bookmark is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
[15:03] <dholbach> it talks about all the stuff we're going to cover today and much much more
[15:03] <dholbach> the Packaging Guide, how things in Ubuntu are done, where to find easy tasks to work on, etc. - it's all in there
[15:04] <dholbach> some MOTU Videos too :)
[15:04] <dholbach> one question we hear a lot is "if I want to do Ubuntu development - do I really need to run the development release?"
[15:04] <dholbach> and the answer is yes
[15:04] <dholbach> you need it to build packages, you need it to test packages, etc.
[15:05] <james_w> you don't have to run it as your main environment though
[15:05] <dholbach> luckily, you don't need to have a broken system all the time because https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases explains various ways how to do that in a sane way :)
[15:05] <dholbach> (but that's linked from the Getting Started page too :))
[15:06] <dholbach> so even if you don't run lucid right now (I don't blame you), let's all enable "Sources" in System -> Administration -> Software Properties -> Software
[15:06] <dholbach> (please let me know in #ubuntu-classroom-chat if that takes you to the right place (I use the German version :-))
[15:06] <dholbach> that will give you easy access to the source of Ubuntu
[15:06] <dholbach> afterwards please run
[15:07] <dholbach> sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends gnupg pbuilder devscripts build-essential debhelper fakeroot
[15:07] <dholbach> it will install a few tools we're going to need during our excercise here
[15:07] <dholbach> james_w: want to say anything about the tools there?
[15:07] <dholbach> or shall we talk about it later on?
[15:07] <james_w> I think we should cover those tools as they come up
[15:08] <dholbach> makes sense :)
[15:08] <dholbach> ok, let's talk about gpg keys
[15:08] <dholbach> as a developer you're going to need a GPG key in order to sign packages and indicate that it was really you who touched them last
[15:09] <dholbach> (you can generally use gpg to encrypt and/or sign files and messages)
[15:09] <dholbach> so whenever I upload a source package to Ubuntu, I sign it first, so the build daemons know they can trust me and let it pass :)
[15:10] <dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto has a lot of good information about how to use and set up gpg keys
[15:10] <dholbach> we'll do the short version here
[15:10] <dholbach> if you don't have a key yet(!), please run:
[15:10] <dholbach> gpg --gen-key
[15:10] <dholbach> james_w: want to talk about the values you best select in there?
[15:11] <james_w> the "comment" it asks for is optional
[15:11] <james_w> most people don't have one
[15:11] <james_w> and it can get confusing later if you put one in :-)
[15:12] <james_w> you don't have to use an @ubuntu.com email address or anything
[15:12] <dholbach> james_w: any advice for all the numbers? (I mostly stick to the default values :-))
[15:12] <james_w> me too
[15:12] <dholbach> ok
[15:12] <dholbach> let's crack on then
[15:12] <dholbach> you might get a message that it is waiting for entropy shortly after you agreed on defaults or picked different values
[15:13] <dholbach> in that case, let it run and do it's thing (it waits for more random numbers to generate the key, so some additional activity on the machine is what it's waiting for)
[15:13] <dholbach> now we'll set up pbuilder (which also takes a bit of time for its setup)
[15:13] <dholbach> please create a file called ~/.pbuilderrc
[15:14] <dholbach> and put          COMPONENTS="main universe multiverse restricted"          into it
[15:14] <dholbach> this will enable all components of Ubuntu as opposed to just "main"
[15:15] <dholbach> now just save it - that's all the configuration it needs right now
[15:15] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto talks about the more advanced options
[15:15] <dholbach> (a good read btw.)
[15:15] <dholbach> now please run
[15:15] <dholbach>   sudo pbuilder create
[15:16] <dholbach> this will set up the pbuilder (by downloading all the minimally required packages), which can take a bit on a slow connection
[15:16] <dholbach> so what's pbuilder
[15:16] <dholbach> it's a tool to build packages in a minimal and clean environment
[15:17] <dholbach> the great thing about it is, 1) you don't have to install millions of packages to build the package locally (and maybe remove them afterwards), but more importantly 2) you can afterwards guarantee that the package will build in a minimal environment with just the packages it specifies for building
[15:17] <dholbach> if some of you have heard of Build-Depends before - that's what I'm referring to
 QUESTION: how can we tell pbuilder to include binary-package-mangler (or whatever that "test the translations" thing is)
[15:18] <dholbach> MsMaco: I think that's mentioned in the PbuilderHowto page - you can tell it to install additional packages and run arbitrary scripts in various hooks
[15:18] <dholbach> do we have some more questions up until now already?
[15:19] <dholbach> there's also a neat tool called pbuilder-dist (in the ubuntu-dev-tools package) that lets you build packages in various distro releases? (like: build supertux in dapper and hardy please)
[15:20] <dholbach> james_w: anything you'd like to add right now?
[15:20] <james_w> pbuilder rocks
[15:20] <dholbach> :-)
[15:20] <dholbach> short and precise - that's why we all like james_w
[15:20] <james_w> you will need to run "pbuilder update"
[15:20] <james_w> every few days
[15:20] <james_w> that will install updated packages and update the apt lists
 Question: What skills do we need to have, or should have, before we get involved in development,  are there any particular coding languages we should learn?
[15:21] <dholbach> Jesi-Idle: I have that on my list in a bit :)
[15:21] <dholbach> next we'll tell the packaging tools who we are
[15:21] <dholbach> for that please edit ~/.bashrc in your favourite editor
[15:21] <dholbach> (or .zshrc if you use zsh, etc.)
[15:22] <dholbach> I added something like this to the end of the file:
[15:22] <dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
[15:22] <dholbach> export<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[15:22] <dholbach> please use the name and the email address you used for your gpg key in there
[15:22] <dholbach> (although you can specify the key id somehow differently)
[15:23] <dholbach> this will speed up development as you don't have to write your name all the time in changelogs and stuff
[15:23] <dholbach> ....... unless you like doing that :)
[15:23] <dholbach> afterwards please save the file
[15:23] <dholbach> and run
[15:23] <dholbach>   source ~/.bashrc
[15:23] <dholbach> or restart your terminal
 QUESTION: Can we use pbuilder for setting something like an automated buildd when we are making batches of packages ?
[15:24] <dholbach> kalon33: you can use pbuilder in scripts to do something like that - I guess it depends on your use-case
[15:25] <dholbach> james_w: did we forget anything initial?
[15:26] <dholbach> ok... so while pbuilder and gpg are still doing their thing, let's talk a bit about Ubuntu Development more generally
[15:26] <dholbach> I really like Jesi-Idle's question
[15:27] <dholbach> because the task of doing Ubuntu Development sounds very daunting in the beginning
[15:27] <dholbach> if I was to think about important skills of new Ubuntu Developers, I personally wouldn't name "C, Python, C++, Makefiles, Shell scripting, etc." first
[15:28] <dholbach> but different things like:
[15:28] <dholbach>  - be a good team player
[15:28] <dholbach>  - liking to make things work again
[15:28] <dholbach>  - don't be afraid of documentation
[15:28] <dholbach>  - don't be afraid to ask when you're unsure
[15:28] <dholbach>  - like doing some detective work
[15:28] <dholbach> james_w: anything you'd add to the list?
[15:29] <james_w> that's certainly a good start
[15:30] <james_w> you need at least to be able to work a text editor
[15:30] <james_w> and knowing how to work the command line is a good idea
[15:31] <dholbach> yep, you're right
[15:31] <james_w> any programming knowledge is a bonus
[15:32] <dholbach> that's one good thing about working on Ubuntu - there's a lot to learn and we work on all packages together :)
[15:32] <dholbach> a good place to talk to people about packaging and ubuntu development is the #ubuntu-motu channel
[15:32] <dholbach> and<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[15:33] <dholbach> there's a lot of friendly people who can help you getting up to speed with your first bug fixes
[15:33] <dholbach> and there's of course: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
[15:33] <james_w> indeed
[15:33] <dholbach> (did I mention it already? :-))
[15:33] <dholbach> so go and bookmark it :)
[15:34] <dholbach> Ubuntu Development is a lot about integrating good software better into Ubuntu
[15:34] <dholbach> so packaging is your bread and butter every day
[15:35] <dholbach> do we have any more questions about that?
[15:35] <dholbach> Jesi-Idle: let us know if we answered your question well enough :)
 secondly, I would like to know specifically how to get mentored. I've gone through the wiki pages, I've added myself to the mentor request list and no one has responded. I'm a web developer that would like to learn how to package programs written in PHP, such as phpMyAdmin, KohanaPHP and some others that I've requested.
[15:35] <dholbach> oh, I missed that one
[15:35] <dholbach> brettalton: there's the MOTU Mentoring programme, but I daresay it's under a lot of load right now
[15:36] <dholbach> if you didn't receive a reply yet, try again
[15:36] <dholbach> one thing should be clear: you don't need to have a mentor to participate
[15:36] <dholbach> reading the packaging guide, having a look at example packages and how they work are a GREAT way to get started
[15:37] <dholbach> and that's why you'll learn much quicker by working on existing packages, because there's a lot of knowledge of hundreds of maintainers already in them
[15:37] <dholbach> since you enabled "Sources" in the software properties above, a simple        apt-get source <pkgname>    will give you access to how they did it
[15:38] <dholbach> brettalton: the people in #ubuntu-server might know a bit more specifically about php packages and web apps in general
[15:38] <dholbach> (or the Debian PHP team)
[15:38] <dholbach> any more questions?
[15:39] <dholbach> seems we're good for now, but keep the questions coming! :)
 Question : Is there a place for a noob to go - for mentoring, i would like to install, configure , modify my own system so that i can better give back to the system as well to others.
[15:39] <dholbach> openweek6_: I think I just answered the mentoring bit... but generally this session is a good start
[15:40] <dholbach> plus https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
[15:40] <dholbach> plus #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net :-)
[15:40] <dholbach> let's crack on :)
[15:40] <dholbach> so... let's say you worked on some kind of bugfix and have a patch available
[15:40] <dholbach> james_w: how do I get that patch into Ubuntu?
[15:41] <james_w> sponsoring!
[15:41] <dholbach> yeehaw!
[15:41] <dholbach> how does it work?
[15:41] <james_w> this is the process by which you get an Ubuntu developer to review your changes and upload them for you
[15:41] <james_w> http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ shows some of the patches that are waiting for review
[15:42] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess explains it in detail (also linked from the getting started pages)
[15:42] <james_w> beat me to it!
[15:42] <dholbach> generally, you will
[15:42] <dholbach>  - find a bug
[15:42] <dholbach>  - fix it (YAY!)
[15:42] <dholbach>  - attach the patch to the bug report
[15:43] <dholbach>  - subscribe the sponsors team
[15:43] <dholbach> done :)
[15:43] <dholbach> they'll review it and upload it for you once they're happy
[15:43] <james_w> act on any review comments if needed
[15:43] <james_w> hopefully not :-)
[15:43] <dholbach> :-)
 Question: I'm under the impression programs get re-packaged with each version of Ubuntu, even if the packaged program hasn't changed? is this so and why is it the case? because other than a few programs I've seen, it seems like everything is already packaged
[15:43] <dholbach> Jesi-Idle: it depends on what you mean by re-packaged
[15:44] <dholbach> if there's no new upstream version (no changed code by the authors of that software)
[15:44] <dholbach> we will often fix bugs by patching small things in the code, or add something useful to the packaging
[15:44] <dholbach> let's say I package frobnicator and I uploaded version 1.4-0ubuntu1 (more about version numbers later)
[15:45] <dholbach> if I decide that frobnicator isn't telling enough, I might want to add a manpage to the package
[15:45] <dholbach> in that case I'd upload a 1.4-0ubuntu2
[15:45] <dholbach> (I hope that makes it a bit clearer)
[15:46] <dholbach> alright, so much for the mechanics of getting fixes into Ubuntu in the beginning
[15:46] <dholbach> let's talk about becoming an Ubuntu developer and joining the uploaders team
[15:46] <dholbach> once you've heard "you're doing great work - you should be able to upload yourself" more often from your co-developers, you should consider applying
[15:47] <dholbach> the process for that is explained at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers and will change slightly in the next few months
[15:48] <dholbach> at the moment you are required to document your work a bit on your wiki page, ask for comments from developers you've worked with and attend a meeting in which a few questions will be asked
[15:48] <dholbach> if all goes well, you're part of the team afterwards :)
 question: where would i report a "bug" report of 9.10 x64 not booting on a dell xps630i computer?
[15:48] <dholbach> james_w: want to take this one? :)
[15:49] <james_w> hmm
[15:49] <james_w> I'm not entirely sure
[15:49] <dholbach> maybe more appropriate for #ubuntu-bugs?
[15:49] <james_w> you'd have to do a bit more investigation to find out the package
[15:49] <dholbach> maybe we have a debugging boot page?
[15:50] <dholbach> if so, it's linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
[15:50] <james_w> and turn on debugging to get the messages that explain why it isn't working
[15:50] <james_w> (if any)
[15:50]  * dholbach nods
[15:50] <dholbach> ok, next question
 Question: is a patch simply a documented change in code that you then apply or do you make a patch file that will run and edit another file, just wondering..
[15:51] <dholbach> Jesi-Idle: nice question
[15:51] <dholbach> we'll produce a bunch of patches later on
[15:51] <dholbach> generally it's a text file that contains well-structured instructions on how change file A to become file B
[15:52] <dholbach> james_w might be able to put it into cleverer words :)
[15:53] <james_w> I think that's a damn good description actually
[15:53] <dholbach> Jesi-Idle: generally "a documented change in code that you then apply" is what a patch is :)
[15:54] <dholbach> so all good :)
[15:54] <james_w> the "patch" command knows how to apply them, so we use that
[15:54] <james_w> you'll see later
 QUESTION: bug fix, patch, develop,  What's the diff?
[15:54] <dholbach> openweek6_: I'd say they're all part of each other :)
[15:54] <dholbach> we'll concentrate on fixing bugs by creating patches in the second part of the session :)
[15:55] <dholbach> how about a 5 minute break before diving into Ubuntu bugs?
[15:55]  * dholbach would get himself some new tea :)
[15:55] <james_w> good idea
[15:55] <dholbach> if you have questions, keep them coming and we'll back in a few :)
[16:00] <dholbach> james_w: ready for part 2?
[16:00] <james_w> yes
[16:00] <dholbach> alrighty
[16:00] <dholbach> do have a bug we could get started with?
[16:01] <dholbach> just to answer a quick question first:
 QUESTION: (if you're not going to get to gpg later): is the Ubuntu WoT same as Debian? (i.e. do I need to get my keys signed by two different sets of people?)
[16:01] <dholbach> jtniehof: it's very strongly encouraged
[16:01] <dholbach> but as far as I know not enforced
[16:02] <dholbach> also... if your gpg run is done now, please head to https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editpgpkeys and add it to Launchpad
[16:02] <dholbach> (that's not necessary for the example now, but very useful :-))
[16:03] <dholbach> james_w: you have a bug we can start with?
[16:03] <james_w> want to start with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xtux/+bug/454115 ?
[16:04] <dholbach> sounds good :)
[16:04] <dholbach> james_w: want to kick off the bug fixing frenzy? :)
[16:05] <james_w> ok
[16:05] <james_w> so, we first need to get the source package so that we can examine it and change it
[16:06] <james_w> so, please move to a temporary directory and run:
[16:06] <james_w> apt-get source xtux
[16:06] <james_w> that will go off and download the source package for you
[16:07] <james_w> you will see some messages about what it is doing
[16:08] <james_w> but it basically leaves you with the unpacked source package in
[16:08] <james_w> xtux-0.2.030306
[16:09] <james_w> so run:
[16:09] <james_w> cd xtux-0.2.030306
[16:09] <james_w> and you can see a whole bunch of files that make up this package
[16:10] <james_w> the packaging itself lives in the ./debian directory
[16:10] <james_w> and there are a whole bunch more files there
[16:10] <james_w> we won't look at what each of them do now
[16:10] <james_w> just a couple
[16:10] <james_w> so, debian/changelog
[16:10] <james_w> this is the changelog of the packaging
[16:11] <james_w> you can see changes that have been made
[16:11] <james_w> debian/control is some information about the package
[16:12] <james_w> it has things like the description, dependencies and the list
[16:12] <james_w> and the like
[16:13] <james_w> debian/copyright contains information on the license of the pakcage
[16:13] <james_w> so, let's look at the bug
[16:14] <james_w> so, the problem is:
[16:15] <james_w> Removing xtux-client ...
[16:15] <james_w> dpkg: error processing xtux-client (--remove):
[16:15] <james_w>  subprocess installed post-removal script returned error exit status 1
[16:15] <james_w> what does this mean?
[16:16] <james_w> the "post-removal script" that it refers to is one that a set of scripts
[16:17] <james_w> that a package can provide
[16:17] <james_w> these scripts are run by dpkg as the package is installed or removed
[16:17] <james_w> so, let's look at the one that is failing
[16:17] <dholbach> a lot of stuff is done during that step
[16:18] <dholbach> like updating the docs database, updating icon caches etc.
[16:18] <dholbach> in most cases you don't need them, unless you want anything special to happen during the installation or removal
[16:18] <dholbach> if you do want that to happen, you need to be extremely careful
[16:18] <james_w> yes
[16:19] <dholbach> everything else will botch the installation of your users
[16:19] <dholbach> like this case
[16:19] <dholbach> (all the regular steps are added automatically :))
[16:19] <james_w> open the file debian/xtux-client.postrm
[16:20] <dholbach> the real beef of the file is:
[16:20] <dholbach>    rmdir /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz >/dev/null 2>&1
[16:20] <james_w> "postrm" means "post rm", or "post removal"
[16:20] <james_w> so we know it is the script that we want
[16:20] <dholbach> everything else is stuff you need in there to get the "regular actions" taking after the removal of packages
[16:21] <dholbach> the call I mentioned above is problematic for a few reasons
[16:21] <dholbach> 1) it suppresses any output which makes it harder for us to figure what the problem is ( >/dev/null 2>&1)
[16:21] <dholbach> 2) it does not check if those directories are available
[16:21] <dholbach> 3) rmdir will fail if those directories are not empty
[16:22] <dholbach> james_w: anything I forgot?
[16:22] <james_w> it should perhaps only does it's work on purge as well?
[16:23] <dholbach> ah, good point
[16:23] <dholbach> (the difference between    apt-get remove <pkg>   and    apt-get remove --purge <pkg>   (or dpkg -P))
[16:23] <dholbach> james_w: what do we do to fix it?
[16:24] <james_w> so, to fix 1)
[16:24] <james_w> we need to to change the redirection
[16:24] <james_w> instead of rmdir /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz >/dev/null 2>&1
[16:25] <james_w> do rmdir /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz 2>&1 >/dev/null
[16:25] <james_w> or just rmdir /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz >/dev/null
[16:25] <james_w> to fix 2)
[16:25] <james_w> we need to guard this by a check for the existence of the directory
[16:26] <james_w> and 3) change the way we run rmdir
[16:26] <james_w> so something like:
[16:26] <james_w> for dir in /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz; do
[16:26] <james_w>     if [ -d $dir ]; then
[16:26] <james_w>       rmdir --ignore-fail-on-non-empty $dir;
[16:26] <james_w>    fi;
[16:26] <james_w> done
[16:27] <james_w> the "[ -d $dir]" checks that the directory exists before it is removed
[16:27] <dholbach> (that's the test(1) command)
[16:27] <james_w> the --ignore-fail-on-non-empty means that the command won't error if the directories are not empty
[16:28] <james_w> so, please go ahead and change the line in the original file to those few lines
[16:28] <dholbach> that looks good to me, so we just replace the original rmdir call and we're done?
[16:29] <james_w> for that file I think?
[16:29] <dholbach> yep, looks good
[16:29] <dholbach> so apart from test building the package and more importantly:
[16:29] <dholbach>  _____ _____ ____ _____ ___ _   _  ____ _
[16:29] <dholbach> |_   _| ____/ ___|_   _|_ _| \ | |/ ___| |
[16:29] <dholbach>   | | |  _| \___ \ | |  | ||  \| | |  _| |
[16:29] <dholbach>   | | | |___ ___) || |  | || |\  | |_| |_|
[16:29] <dholbach>   |_| |_____|____/ |_| |___|_| \_|\____(_)
[16:30] <dholbach>
[16:30] <james_w> ok
[16:30] <dholbach> we need to document our changes properly so people know what we did and why :)
[16:30] <james_w> so, next step is to edit the changelog
[16:30] <james_w> yes!
[16:30] <james_w> want to take this bit?
[16:30] <dholbach> sure
[16:30] <dholbach> I use the    dch -i   command from the devscripts package
[16:30] <dholbach> this makes use of the DEBEMAIL variables we set before
[16:31] <dholbach> and will add a template changelog entry for us and increment the version number
[16:31] <dholbach> after some editing the first line for me now says
[16:31] <dholbach> xtux (0.2.030306-11ubuntu1) lucid; urgency=low
[16:31] <dholbach> let's go through it one by one
[16:31] <dholbach> first up is the name of the source package
[16:32] <dholbach> xtux-client (the binary ".deb" package) belongs to the xtux source package
[16:32] <dholbach> one source package can build multiple binary packages
[16:32] <dholbach> this is used to split things up for various reasons
[16:32] <dholbach> this example will show you a package that makes use of the idea extensively: apt-cache showsrc mono
[16:33] <dholbach> next up is the version number, which in our case now is: 0.2.030306-11ubuntu1
[16:33] <dholbach> it means that the software authors released 0.2.030306 at some stage which has gone through 11 revisions in Debian
[16:33] <dholbach> and we're just about to add the first change to it in Ubuntu
[16:34] <dholbach> next comes the distro release we want to upload it to later on
[16:34] <dholbach> this should always default to the current development release which since some days is lucid
[16:34] <dholbach> if you want to get something included in an older release, you might want to have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[16:35] <dholbach> we can ignore "urgency=low" - that's a Debian'ism that Launchpad does not make use of as far as I know
[16:35] <dholbach>  -- Daniel Holbach<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:30:38 +0100
[16:35] <dholbach> is the last line which isn't particularly interesting
[16:35] <dholbach> :-)
[16:36] <dholbach> so, let's document what we did
[16:37] <dholbach> james_w might have a better wording than I do, but I'd put something like this in there
[16:37] <dholbach>   * xtux-client.postrm: don't fail to remove directories which don't exist
[16:37] <dholbach>     or are not empty (LP: #454115)
[16:37] <dholbach> this does 3 things:
[16:37] <dholbach> it mentions which files we changed
[16:37] <dholbach> it mentions how we changed them
[16:37] <dholbach> and it references the bug report in Launchpad we attempt to fix
[16:38] <dholbach> (and it also closes the bug automatically when the package is uploaded)
[16:38] <dholbach> this is important for a few reasons
[16:38] <dholbach> we all work on Ubuntu packages togethere
[16:38] <dholbach> there is no strict "owner" of a package
[16:38] <dholbach> so you don't want others to have to second-guess what you actually changed
[16:38] <dholbach> AND
[16:38] <dholbach> YOU don't want to second-guess half a year later :-)
[16:39] <dholbach> once you've done that, please save the file
[16:39] <dholbach> james_w: anything I forgot before we crack on?
[16:39] <james_w> don't think so
[16:40] <dholbach> I stand correct: maco points out that urgency DOES make a difference in Ubuntu too: https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/BuildScores
[16:40] <dholbach> please use it wisely :)
[16:40] <dholbach> alright, we should be done now
[16:40] <dholbach> please run
[16:40] <dholbach>    debuild -S
[16:40] <dholbach> this will rebuild the source package for us
[16:41] <dholbach> (if you ran into an error saying something about Ubuntu maintainer, please run update-maintainer from ubuntu-dev-tools and debuild -S again)
[16:41] <dholbach> (it also uses quilt, so if you get an error about that, please install quilt too)
[16:42] <dholbach> once it completed I get the following files (below the xtux-<IP_ADDRESS>306 directory):
[16:42] <dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11.diff.gz         xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1_source.build
[16:42] <dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11.dsc             xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1_source.changes
[16:42] <dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.diff.gz  xtux_0.2.030306.orig.tar.gz
[16:42] <dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.dsc
[16:43] <dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306.orig.tar.gz contains the code that was actually released by the xtux authors
[16:43] <dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11.dsc and xtux_0.2.030306-11.diff.gz basically make up the packaging by the Debian maintainer (of the -11 version)
[16:43] <dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.diff.gz and xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.dsc is -11 plus our good work
[16:44] <dholbach> the .diff.gz files contain the compressed set of changes we need to apply to make the package build the "Debian/Ubuntu way"
[16:44] <dholbach> the .dsc is metadata like md5sums
[16:44] <dholbach> there's a nifty tool called debdiff, which we'll use here to get us the patch for the changes we just did
[16:45] <dholbach> please run:
[16:45] <dholbach>   debdiff xtux_0.2.030306-11.dsc xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.dsc
[16:46] <dholbach> the output should be a bit like this one:
[16:46] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/310719/
[16:46] <dholbach> if you got this far: you just created your first patch
[16:46] <dholbach> CONGRATULATIONS! :))))
[16:46] <dholbach> james_w: want to take us from here?
[16:48] <james_w> what's next?
[16:48] <dholbach> we could test-build it
[16:48] <dholbach> or try to squeeze in another bug :)
[16:48] <james_w> of course!
[16:48] <james_w> pbuilder build xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.dsc
[16:48] <james_w> that will build your new package inside pbuilder
[16:48] <dholbach> you might want to add a    sudo     in front :)
[16:49] <dholbach> ok, let's hear some more questions
[16:49] <dholbach> for those of you who want more bugs and more bug fixing action, you could try having a look at these bugs:
[16:49] <dholbach> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fet/+bug/368017
[16:49] <dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ibus/+bug/429986
[16:49] <dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ibus/+bug/429988
[16:49] <dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usermode/+bug/461365
[16:50] <dholbach> and check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO which lists a lot of good stuff to get started with
[16:50] <dholbach> do we have more questions?
[16:51] <dholbach> did pbuilder succeed for anybody already? :)
 QUESTION: Is it reasonable to use your ppa rather than using pbuilder to test build a package?
[16:51] <dholbach> jsgruber: good one
[16:52] <dholbach> so jsgruber is referring to PPAs (personal package archives), a service by Launchpad to build your package for you: https://help.launchpad.net/PPA has more details about that
[16:52] <dholbach> I usually prefer to build them locally - it's mostly quicker because you don't have a queue :)
[16:53] <dholbach> I just use PPAs to distribute packages for testing
 QUESTION: What if the bug fix you create fixes the bug you intended to fix, but creates other bugs in the source? How would you test for this?
[16:53] <dholbach> openweek7: in our case, I'd test-install the package and see if I can remove it safely again
[16:53] <dholbach> it's really important that you install the packages you just built and play around with them to make sure the fix indeed does what you promised
 Question: what are the differences from building the "Debian/Ubuntu way" or the "Fedora" or "Suse" way since you mentioned it, just little things or is there a significant difference?
[16:54] <dholbach> I won't go into much speculation about how it works for Fedora or SuSE because I don't really know
[16:54] <dholbach> I know that in the .rpm world a .spec file is involved which is a condensed ./debian directory
[16:55] <dholbach> what I can say is that the debian/ubuntu way of building software basically means that you wrap a well-defined build system around that that comes from the upstream software
[16:55] <dholbach> I know that's a bit "meta" :)
[16:56] <dholbach> a lot of C programs usually take you a  ./configure && make && sudo make install  route
[16:56] <dholbach> python projects might require a   python ./setup.py build <something>
[16:56] <dholbach> and there's lots of other software that does it in different ways
[16:56] <dholbach> we have clever tools for all the "regular" cases
[16:56] <dholbach> so you merely run      fakeroot debian/rules clean
[16:57] <dholbach> or fakeroot debian/rules binary
[16:57] <dholbach> or whatever
[16:57] <dholbach> basically a build system with build targets around the one you're required to follow by that software
 QUESTION: is it reasonable updating system (using for testing devel releases and ubuntu devel purposes) to lucid (before alpha1 release) today? or should better to wait for alpha1?
[16:57] <dholbach> I'd encourage you to read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases
[16:58] <dholbach> because it explains how to set up lucid in a chroot or a vm or a separate partition or something
[16:58] <dholbach> and you don't have to deal with the daily pain :-)
[16:58] <dholbach> alrightie
[16:58] <dholbach> please bookmark:
[16:58] <dholbach> ¡¡¡ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted !!!
[16:58] <dholbach> see you in #ubuntu-motu
[16:58] <dholbach> and make james_w and me proud!
[16:58] <dholbach> thanks a lot james_w
[16:59] <dholbach> and thanks a lot everybody for attending the session!
[16:59] <dholbach> 1 minute to go until mneptok and jussi talk about the IRC world!
[17:00] <mneptok> ladies and gentlemen, the equally smart and sexy dholbach. let's give him a nice round of applause.
[17:00] <dholbach> mneptok: don't forget the smart, sexy, clever and rocking-DJing james_w
[17:01] <mneptok> oooo! ja,es_w is a DJ, too? now i understand your co-presentation. ;)
[17:01] <mneptok> OK, let's get started on this next session.
[17:01] <james_w> thanks dholbach
[17:01] <james_w> you rock as always
[17:01] <mneptok> Hello all, and welcome to the self-referential Open Week IRC session on using IRC. :)
[17:02]  * mneptok is Kurt von Finck
[17:02] <mneptok> I'm a member of the Ubuntu IRC Ops Team, and co-presenting with me is juss01 (Jussi Schultink). Jussi is also a member of the ops team.
[17:02] <mneptok> We would ask that you save your questions until the end of the session, and ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[17:02] <mneptok> Our session is divided into two parts. First, Jussi will discuss what IRC is and how it works. If you're new to IRC, and want to know more about connecting servers, / commands, registering a nick on Freenode, and similar issues, Jussi has your answers.
[17:02] <mneptok> Second, I will discuss how Ubuntu channels operate, and what netiquette we expect from users of official Ubuntu channels. If you want to know where to go for help, how to ensure you get help in a timely and efficient manner, and how to stay off ban lists, my section will be of interest to you.
[17:02] <mneptok> So, without further ado, ladies and gentlemen ... Jussi Schultink! Take it away, Jussi!
[17:03] <jussio1> ahh thats better
[17:03] <jussio1> Hi Everyone! :)
[17:03] <jussio1> As Kurt Just mentioned, I'm Jussi Schultink. I am a member of the Ubuntu ops team and also part of the Ubuntu IRC council.
[17:03] <jussio1> First I'm going to go through how to connect to IRC properly, register your username, and generally getting set up.
[17:04] <jussio1> Then I am going to show you some useful commands and how to use the bot efficiently.
[17:04] <jussio1> After that, Ill hand off to Kurt and he will tell you some more about how to behave on IRC.
[17:05] <jussio1> Ok, So lets start with connecting to IRC. Youve all done this already, although there might be some who are reading the logs who are still interested. You can connect with a number of different clients, depending on your situation. The default client installed in ubuntu is Pidgin and the default client in Kubuntu is Quassel.
[17:06] <jussio1> You can also connect with freenodes webchat if you don't want to or cannot install one on your system. You can find it here: http://webchat.freenode.net/
[17:06] <jussio1> Ok, Ive been corrected, the latest ubuntu has empathy :)
[17:06] <jussio1> (yeah, Im a kubuntu user  :D )
[17:06] <mneptok> we love you anyway
[17:07] <jussio1> Once you are connected, you need to find a free nick. If you connect and you are using someone elses nick who has nick protection on, your name will be changed to Guest##### after 30 seconds. To see who owns a nick you can use the following command: /msg nickserv info <nick>
[17:07] <jussio1> If the message from that command comes back with "<nick> is not registered" then you may then switch to the nick with /nick <nick> and register it with /msg nickserv register <password> <email@address>
[17:08] <jussio1> Please remember to do these commands in your server window, so if you mess it up you don't post to the whole channel  :)
[17:09] <jussio1> So, about / commands. We have already been through a few for registering your nick. Some other common ones include:  /me - which will print your name first, as if you have done an action - like this:
[17:09]  * jussio1 waves to everyone!
[17:10] <jussio1> Also, / commands are used if you want a way to private message someone with out actually opening a query with them, as we have just done with nickserv. ( /msg nickserv <message> )
[17:10] <jussio1> Now, Freenode has several services bots available, Im not going to go through all of them, but the 2 most important ones. They are Nickserv and Chanserv. As you might have guessed, Nickserv handles anything to do with nicknames and Chanserv anything to do with channels.
[17:11] <jussio1> You can get help with the commands from these two bots by messaging them with the help command: "/msg nickserv help" or "/msg chanserv help". Also, you can ask the services bots for help with specific commands by adding the command on the end, ie. /msg nickserv help <command>
[17:12] <jussio1> Now Im going to talk a little about ubuntu's info bot, ubottu. You can find her (yes, thats right, its a she :D ) info pages at: http://ubottu.com/ and a wiki page about ubuntu bots generally at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[17:12] <jussio1> Ubottu also has several clones, (ubot*) these do very similar things so I wont really talk about them here.
[17:12] <jussio1> hehe
[17:13] <jussio1> Our Ubottu is a (somewhat) intelligent IRC bot. (even though she claims she isnt). The idea behind ubottu is that it remembers answers to commonly asked questions and that users of #ubuntu/#kubuntu (and other channels she is in) can easily recall them when needed. You can recall a factoid by doing the following:
[17:13] <jussio1> !bot
[17:14] <jussio1> You can switch out !bot for any factoid you like, although we do ask you know which one you want, as to not create undue noise - see:
[17:14] <jussio1> !botabuse
[17:14] <jussio1> If you notice a factoid is incorrect, or feel a factoid needs to be added, then you can suggest a new one to the ops with "!factoid is <reply> fact".
[17:14] <jussio1> Ubottu also does a few other tasks, if she notices a bug number in the form "bug 2" then she will tell the channel what the bug is and give a URL for it. She also will tell information about packages in the following way:
[17:15] <jussio1> !info kubuntu-desktop
[17:15] <jussio1> If you dont know the whole package name, she is able to search the repository for you with the "!find" command.
[17:15] <jussio1> !find mnemos
[17:16] <jussio1> Both of the above commands can have a certain version of ubuntu attached if need be, for example if you want to see the version of kubuntu-desktop in jaunty, then:
[17:16] <jussio1> !info kubuntu-desktop jaunty
[17:16] <jussio1> Ok, Now Im going to hand off to Kurt and he will take you through some IRC etiquette.
[17:17] <mneptok> Alright! Thanks Jussi!
[17:17] <mneptok> Now, onto how to use Ubuntu IRC channels specifically.
[17:17] <mneptok> Official Ubuntu IRC channels are all hosted on Freenode. If you are connecting to another network you may well find channels dedicated to Ubuntu discussions, but these are not official, and may well have guidelines different from those I will discuss. Be sure you know where you are. :)
[17:18] <mneptok> Behavior on IRC, like any medium in the Ubuntu world, is subject to the Ubuntu Code Of Conduct, often abbreviated to CoC. All IRC users are expected to adhere to the principles set forth in this document. Here's a link to the CoC:
[17:18] <mneptok> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
[17:18] <mneptok> the bot knows about this, as well
[17:18] <mneptok> !coc
[17:18] <mneptok> In addition to the CoC, IRC users are also asked to familiarize themselves with the official Ubuntu IRC Guidelines, and follow those, as well. Here are those guidelines:
[17:18] <mneptok> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[17:19] <mneptok> !guidelines
[17:19]  * mneptok pats ubottu
[17:19] <mneptok> Let's cover some of those guidelines with some more depth, and give some of the reasoning behind them.
[17:19] <mneptok> Many of the guidelines involve input to the channel. Such things are a big issue, as the Ubuntu channels can be very busy.
[17:19] <mneptok> Pasting, flooding, /away messages, multiple inputlines for single questions, bots ... all of these are frowned upon.
[17:20] <mneptok> Anything that adds input to the channel, but is generally superfluous, is a bad idea. If every user spent no time thinking about this issue, the channels would quickly spiral into a chaotic mess that no one could read.
[17:20] <mneptok> Take for example /away messages. Imagine a channel the size of #ubuntu (>1K users) where every user sent text to the channel every time they looked away from the chat window or went for a snack. It would be bedlam. Hence, public /away notification (including nick changes) are not allowed.
[17:20] <mneptok> then there's
[17:20] <mneptok> the issue
[17:20] <mneptok> of people
[17:20] <mneptok> using multiple
[17:20] <mneptok> inputlines
[17:20] <mneptok> to express
[17:20] <mneptok> a single
[17:20] <mneptok> thought
[17:21] <mneptok> Well, that was annoying when I did it. Now imagine 1,000 people doing it. Once you have regained some semblance of snaity, you'll know why the !enter factoid exists.
[17:21] <mneptok> !enter
[17:21] <mneptok> Sometimes it becomes necessary to share multiple lines of information with people on the channel. For example, some kind of output from your machine that is necessary to help people help you.
[17:21] <mneptok> For these occasions, we ask users to use a "pastebin" service, that allows you to paste output to a web page that anyone can read. The Ubuntu pastebin is at:
[17:22] <mneptok> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com
[17:22] <mneptok> !pastebin
[17:22] <mneptok> Instead of pasting to the channel, use pastebin.
[17:22] <mneptok> Another type of annoying input is IM speak. Ending your sentences with "lol" or "roflmao" or using text shortcuts like "u" (you) or "2" (too/to) isn't necessary in a medium where there is no per-character cost. Be aware, the person that can best help you with your problem may not be a native English speaker, and your IM speak will be off-putting.
[17:23] <mneptok> IRC is not SMS, or IM.
[17:23] <mneptok> About bots. One word is enough here. "Don't." The guidelines are quite clear on this point. Do not bring your own bots into Ubuntu IRC channels.
[17:23] <mneptok> A final piece of channel etiquette advice: don't send other users private messages (/msg or /query) without asking first. Many people find it disruptive, and you're more likely to get help if you ask a group than a specific individual.
[17:24] <mneptok> Now on to Ubuntu channels, and their use.
[17:24] <mneptok> If you are using Ubuntu, and you need help, #ubuntu is the correct channel. #ubuntu is a support channel, and should only be used for support issues.
[17:24] <mneptok> If you are using Kubuntu, use the #kubuntu channel. The same rules about "support only" apply.
[17:25] <mneptok> If you feel like socializing rather than looking to receive or give help, #ubuntu-offtopic exists for just that reason.
[17:25] <mneptok> The channels above are English language channels. We ask that you only use English on those channels. But that does not mean that Ubuntu IRC is for Anglophones only.
[17:25] <mneptok> There are many local channels that cater to users in native languages other than English. try /join'ing #ubuntu-$ICANN_TLD to see if such a channel exists. For example, Romanian speakers congregate in #ubuntu-ro and Mandarin speakers in #ubuntu-cn.
[17:26] <mneptok> A fairly complete list of Ubuntu channels is located on the Ubuntu wiki
[17:26] <mneptok> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
[17:26] <mneptok> Often the purpose and policies of Ubuntu channels are stated in the channel /topic, which your IRC client should show to you when you enter that channel. Always read channel /topics so you don't make easily avoidable errors.
[17:26] <mneptok> So, long story longer ... be sure you are using the correct channel for the conversation you are having. And be sure you're using the correct language.
[17:27] <mneptok> Now, on to how to ask questions in order to get help. There is a great link on the IRC Guidelines page I would encourage you to read.
[17:27] <mneptok> http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html
[17:27] <mneptok> Some of the points there are worth repeating.
[17:27] <mneptok> Don't ask to ask a question. Or tell people you have a question. Just ask.
[17:27] <mneptok> !ask
[17:27] <mneptok> Don't repeat yourself more than once every 5 minutes. Be patient. If someone knows the answer, they will answer. Or not. Pestering an entire channel is a good way to ensure you're ignored.
[17:28] <mneptok> !repeat
[17:28] <mneptok> Remember, users helping other users are volunteers. You don;t have an inalienable right to help. That being said, people should always be patient, helpful, and friendly when helping others, per the CoC.
[17:28] <mneptok> !patience
[17:28]  * mneptok jiggles ubottu
[17:29] <mneptok> Finally, what happens when it all goes wrong? What if another user is in violation of the CoC or the IRC Guidelines? What if you have been, and have been kicked or banned because of it?
[17:29] <mneptok> The Ubuntu IRC Ops Team has a channel designed for just such ocassions, #ubuntu-ops. Use this channel to report bad or suspiscious behavior, or to speak to an op about results of your behavior.
[17:29] <mneptok> The #ubuntu-ops channel has a no-idle policy. It's clearly stated in the channel /topic, and we all read channel /topics when we /join, right? ;)
[17:29] <mneptok> you can also call the ops to a certain channel like so:
[17:30] <mneptok> !ops
[17:30] <mneptok> consider that the IRC equivalent of the emergency flare
[17:31] <mneptok> And with that, we'll move on to the question and answer section of this session. Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and , Amber, Jussi and I will paste them here.
[17:32] <mneptok> there was a question about Empathy's support of basic IRC / commands
[17:32] <mneptok> be aware, Pidgin and Empathy are bare-bones IRC clients.
[17:33] <mneptok> if you are going to use IRC for any length of time, most experienced users would encourage you to use a more feature-rich client.
[17:33] <mneptok> XChat, Smuxi, Konversation, and Quassel are all good choices.
[17:34] <mneptok> a lot of old-time IRC users use command-line clients. my preferences is irssi.
[17:34] <mneptok> you'll probably want to become fairly familiar with IRC before trying a CLI client
[17:35] <mneptok> next q?
[17:35] <jussio1> akgraner: ?
 QUESTION: is the IRC council and IRC ops team considering adding irc helpers ( half-ops ) to help out in #ubuntu?
[17:36] <jussio1> Ok, Ill answer this one.
[17:37] <jussio1> The IRC council considers all suggestions sent to it. Currently we are in the process of elections, and we will consider this after the new council is in place.
[17:38] <jussio1> you can see more about the IRC council here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil
[17:39] <jussio1> next?
 QUESTION: Why are the ops so awesome? :)
[17:39] <mneptok> we're sure to drink our Ovaltine
[17:39] <mneptok> next?
 QUESTION: How many ops are there? Are they the same for all ubuntu channels?
[17:40] <mneptok> i'll take this.
[17:40] <mneptok> currently there are ~20-30 active members of the ops team
[17:40] <mneptok> the ops team is responsible for official namespace Ubuntu channels, with the exception of LoCo channels.
[17:41] <mneptok> as i pointed out during my part of the talk, a list of official Ubuntu channels is at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
[17:42] <mneptok> and yes, the ops team has consistent across Ubuntu IRC namespace
[17:42] <mneptok> next?
 QUESTION: about bots in Ubuntu channels.. do you mean just the ones that begin with #ubuntu or does that mean LoCo team channels as well?
[17:42] <jussio1> Ill get this
[17:43]  * mneptok will just point out that #kubuntu does not start with #ubuntu ;)
[17:44] <jussio1> Ubuntu channels have some official bots, as on the page I mentioned before. however, some loco channels have their own localised versions of ubottu. The key here is whether the channel owner permits the bot. be sure to ask before bringing any bot into a channel.
[17:44] <jussio1> next?
 QUESTION: as mentioned at the start, this IRC based intro to IRC is self-referential. How can IRC better promote itself to new users outside of IRC?
[17:45] <mneptok> i'll take this.
[17:45] <mneptok> i think a good amount of promotion is done via the Ubuntu wiki and other resources.
[17:45] <mneptok> read through the documents there, and if you find weak spots or omissions, correct them
[17:46] <jussio1> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
[17:46] <mneptok> that being said, i think that if someone *wants* to use IRC, the resources for learning how to do so are already available.
[17:46] <mneptok> so, then the question is "how do we make people want to use IRC?"
[17:46] <mneptok> there are a few things you can do.
[17:47] <mneptok> blog/dent/tweet about it. "I use IRC to get help with Ubuntu, and it's a LOT faster than the forums!"
[17:47] <mneptok> talk about IRC at LoCo meetings, release parties, conferences, etc.
[17:48] <mneptok> when that fails, get a big board with a nail through it and start ringing doorbells in your neighborhood. >;)
[17:48] <mneptok> next?
 QUESTION:  So in reply to questions  if ubottu is going to be used it should only really be used once per question?  With some possible exceptions.
[17:49] <jussio1> Ill get this :)
[17:50] <jussio1> The real answer to this is use common sense. This will differ according to the question, but please dont spam some poor soul with 15 bot replies :D
[17:50] <jussio1> next?
 QUESTION: how do u teach ubottu new tricks?
[17:51] <mneptok> i'll answer this
[17:51] <mneptok> first, like a trained seal, be sure to have botsnacks at hand.
[17:51] <jussio1> :)
[17:51] <mneptok> !botsnack
[17:51] <jussio1> She is a little sick atm :/
[17:52] <mneptok> to add a factoid, the syntax is !new_factoid is desired_reply
[17:52] <mneptok> like so:
[17:52] <mneptok> !mneptok is a hoopty frood who knows where his towel is.
[17:52] <mneptok> next?
 QUESTION:Can ubuntu bots be brought to any channel?if yes, How?
[17:53] <jussio1> OK, Ive got this
[17:54] <jussio1> Ubuntu bots have limited resources, however, they are available for official ubuntu channels. if you would like ubottu's functionality in your private channel, you can set up and run your own.
[17:54] <jussio1> !botclone
[17:54] <jussio1> She is open source, so you are welcome to modify her and create things :)
[17:54] <jussio1> next?
 QUESTION: Since emotion and body language can not be seen on IRC and it is not SMS or IM how do you suggests people showing tone emotion etc?
[17:55] <mneptok> OK, i'll take this
[17:55] <mneptok> not only are emotion and body language impossible, so is tone.
[17:56] <mneptok> so one of the few things that translates well from IM to IRC is emoticons.
[17:56] <mneptok> ;) :) >;) :O :( :/ O:)
[17:57] <mneptok> use these to denote your tone and intent.
[17:57] <mneptok> for example, i have met akgraner and her husband in person. akgraner's husband could kill me with 9 fingers tied behind his back.
[17:57] <mneptok> if i say:
[17:57] <mneptok> akgraner: someday i will steal you from Pete
[17:58] <mneptok> Amber will, quite rightly, think about putting me on /ignore
[17:58] <mneptok> but if i say:
[17:58] <mneptok> akgraner: someday i will steal you from Pete ;)
[17:58] <mneptok> it's fairly clear i'm kidding, and that i know Pete could destroy me using only his mind.
[17:59] <akgraner> and with that time is up..
[17:59] <akgraner> :-)
[17:59] <mneptok> now, be aware that humor on IRC is always good, like being of good humor anywhere in life.
[17:59] <akgraner> thank you mneptok and jussi01
[17:59] <akgraner> :-P
[17:59] <jussio1> :)
[17:59] <mneptok> but support channels like #ubuntu do not benefit from jokes, as many people are having problems and are frustrated to begin with.
[18:00] <kirkland> akgraner: am I up?
[18:00] <mneptok> thanks everyone
[18:00] <akgraner> up next is Dustin Kirkland and KVM and Virt-Manager
[18:00]  * kirkland high fives jussi01 and mneptok
[18:00] <akgraner> yeppers..take it away kirkland
[18:00] <kirkland> alright, so I'm talking about Virtualization in Ubuntu
[18:01] <kirkland> specifically, using something called KVM
[18:01] <kirkland> i'm going to throw a bunch of examples at you, that I hope you'll try at home
[18:01] <kirkland> you'll need a couple of things to get started
[18:01] <kirkland> first, your CPU must support something called Virtualization Technology
[18:01] <kirkland> you can easily check by running:
[18:02] <kirkland> egrep "flags.*:.*(svm|vmx)" /proc/cpuinfo && echo "Yay" || echo "Boo"
[18:02] <kirkland> if that comes back and says "Yay", you're good go
[18:02] <kirkland> otherwise, please listen along, save the logs, and try again when you find a computer that has VT
[18:02] <kirkland> or, better yet, next time you buy one, make sure it has VT before checking out ;-)
[18:03] <kirkland> next, you'll also need to have an Ubuntu ISO somewhere on your system
[18:03] <kirkland> as we're going to run an Ubuntu virtual machine, inside of Ubuntu
[18:03] <kirkland> you can download one from the nearest mirror at http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
[18:03] <kirkland> or, hopefully you already have one lying around
[18:04] <kirkland> you can do this on either an amd64 kernel, or an i386 kernel
[18:04] <kirkland> for Virtualization, I really prefer 64bit
[18:04] <kirkland> because a 64bit system can host either 32bit or 64bit VMs
[18:04] <kirkland> a 32bit system can only host 32bit VMs
[18:04] <kirkland> so if you have a 32bit system, make sure you download a 32bit iso
[18:05] <kirkland> if you have a 64bit system, you can download either
[18:05] <kirkland> also, you might want to start downloading http://people.canonical.com/~kirkland/hardy.img.bz2
[18:05] <kirkland> that's a 64bit image
[18:05] <kirkland> sorry, i forgot that some people still use 32bit when i created that
[18:06] <kirkland> my bad ... so it's only worth downloading that if you're running 64 bit, I'm afraid.  my bad....
[18:06] <kirkland> in any case, you're going to create your own VMs
[18:06] <kirkland> now, I'm also assuming you're running Ubuntu 9.10
[18:06] <kirkland> if you haven't already done so, install the utilities that we're going to use
[18:06] <kirkland> sudo apt-get install qemu-kvm virt-manager
[18:06] <kirkland> it'll pull a few dependencies if you don't already have them
[18:07] <kirkland> i'd like to spend about 15 minutes looking at using KVM from the command line first
[18:07] <kirkland> and then 15 minutes using the virt-manager GUI
[18:07] <kirkland> and spend the rest of the time taking questions
[18:07] <kirkland> cool....
[18:07] <kirkland> so qemu-kvm is the utility we're going to use from the command line
[18:07] <kirkland> qemu stands for "quick emulator"
[18:07] <kirkland> and kvm stands for "kernel virtual machine"
[18:08] <kirkland> the Linux kernel provides KVM as a virtualization layer ... a "hypervisor" built right into the kernel
[18:08] <kirkland> other virtualization options available in Ubuntu are not built into the kernel
[18:08] <kirkland> well, Xen kind of is ...
[18:08] <kirkland> but Xen is a giant patch to the kernel
[18:08] <kirkland> that's not entirely upstream yet
[18:08] <kirkland> so it's not something that we can support very well
[18:09] <kirkland> same goes for things like Virtual Box, etc.
[18:09] <kirkland> these are good virt options too, but not what we're talking about today
[18:09] <kirkland> or really what I work on, on a daily basis
[18:09] <kirkland> okay, so first, i'm going to create a backing disk image
[18:09] <kirkland> virtual machines have hard disks that fit entirely into a single file!
[18:10] <kirkland> this is really cool because you can move this file around
[18:10] <kirkland> to a different machine on the network
[18:10] <kirkland> onto a usb key, or whatever
[18:10] <kirkland> we're going to create a "sparse" file, which means that it small to start with
[18:10] <kirkland> but will grow as your virtual machine grows
[18:10] <kirkland> cd /tmp
[18:10] <kirkland> or somewhere that you want to put your virtual machine
[18:10] <kirkland> df -h .
[18:11] <kirkland> make sure you have sufficient disk space
[18:11] <kirkland> we're going to create a 6G disk image
[18:11] <kirkland> which is plenty big enough for the Ubuntu Desktop
[18:11] <kirkland> kvm-img create -f qcow2 foo.img 6G
[18:11] <kirkland> Formatting 'foo.img', fmt=qcow2 size=6442450944 encryption=off cluster_size=0
[18:11] <kirkland> that should happen very fast
[18:11] <kirkland> as it didn't actually write 6G of data to your disk
[18:12] <kirkland> now, assuming you have an ISO available, you can boot a virtual machine
[18:12] <kirkland> i'm going to give my VM 512MB of memory
[18:12] <kirkland> which is fine, because my host has 4G of memory
[18:12] <kirkland> but bear this in mind when you do this
[18:12] <kirkland> i'm going to point the first hard disk at foo.img
[18:12] <kirkland> and the cdrom at the iso file i'm going to use to install this
[18:13] <kirkland> /usr/bin/kvm -m 512 -hda foo.img -cdrom ../iso/karmic-desktop-amd64.iso
[18:13] <kirkland> if you get an error about not being able to enable KVM
[18:13] <kirkland> acceleration
[18:13] <kirkland> you might need to debug one or two things
[18:13] <kirkland> first, you might have to enable KVM in your BIOS
[18:13] <kirkland> unfortunately, a lot of new computers support KVM
[18:13] <kirkland> but don't enable it by default in BIOS
[18:13] <kirkland> stupid
[18:14] <kirkland> also, you might need to check the permissions on /dev/kvm
[18:14] <kirkland> make sure that you have write access to it
[18:14] <kirkland> you might need to add your user to the kvm group
[18:14] <kirkland> with
[18:14] <kirkland> sudo usermod -a -G kvm $USER
[18:14] <kirkland> you'll need to log out, and back in
[18:14] <kirkland> or, you can just use sudo on the kvm command itself
[18:14] <kirkland> i don't recommend that in general
[18:14] <kirkland> but for this demo, it's okay
[18:15] <kirkland> so in the mean time, my VM has now booted!
[18:15] <kirkland> i'm looking at the Karmic livecd desktop in my virtual machine
[18:15] <kirkland> has anyone else booted their iso at this point?  answer -> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[18:16] <kirkland> now, from here, I've answered the 6 pages of questions
[18:16] <kirkland> and i'm installing Ubuntu desktop into a virtual machine!
[18:17] <kirkland> we'll pause for questions now, while our VMs install
 QUESTION: When you say 64bit system... does it have to be running a 64bit OS as well to run either 32 or 64 bit VM?
[18:18] <kirkland> Mindfulgeek: yes
[18:18] <kirkland> Mindfulgeek: i'm talking about the OS
[18:18] <kirkland> you can tell what you're running with:
[18:18] <kirkland> uname -a
[18:19] <kirkland> if that says x86_64, then your OS is 64bit
[18:19] <kirkland> if it says i686, your OS is 32bit
[18:19] <kirkland> akgraner: anything else?
 QUESTION: I know it's not secure, but: can I remote connect to --vnc booted guest? by default it listens on localhost:590x
[18:19] <kirkland> cemc: that question is a little bit complicated....  it depends on the network configure your host has offered to the guest
[18:20] <kirkland> using the commands i did above, the networking setup is very basic
[18:20] <kirkland> the guest will be able to get out to the internet
[18:20] <kirkland> but no one else (not even your host) will be able to initiate network connections to the guest
[18:20] <kirkland> to do what you're asking, cemc, you need "bridged" networking
[18:20] <kirkland> which is a little bit invovled to configure on the command line
[18:21] <kirkland> but really easy using virt-manager
[18:21] <kirkland> which we're getting to :-)
[18:21] <kirkland> now, if you've managed to download that hardy.img.gz that I pointed you to earlier
[18:21] <kirkland> i hope you've unzipped it
[18:21] <kirkland> as this is a virtual machine ready to go!
[18:21] <kirkland> running the hardy server
[18:22] <kirkland> my laptop is a dual core
[18:22] <kirkland> so I should very easily be able to run 2 vm's at once
[18:22] <kirkland> actually, i can run more than that
[18:22] <kirkland> but 2 should be very doable
[18:22] <kirkland> so I'm also going to launch that hardy server vm
[18:22] <kirkland> with:
[18:23] <kirkland> /usr/bin/kvm -hda hardy.img
[18:23] <kirkland> this should boot up very quickly
[18:23] <kirkland> and now, i have a second VM up and running
[18:23] <kirkland> I do essentially all of my Ubuntu testing and development in "throw away" vm's like this
[18:23] <kirkland> I use this like scratch pads :-)
[18:24] <kirkland> to doodle ideas in code
[18:24] <kirkland> test them out
[18:24] <kirkland> all without polluting my oh-so-clean primary desktop environment :-)
[18:24] <kirkland> it really helps keep my fringe testing away from my pristine desktop
[18:24] <kirkland> and this is something *you* can help us with
[18:24] <kirkland> there's a lot of people complaining about the quality of Karmic right now
[18:25] <kirkland> and I hope you know that we're focusing on quality of Lucid, as an LTS
[18:25] <kirkland> but we can really use a lot of help from YOU testing this stuff earlier in the development cycle
[18:25] <kirkland> and this is something that you can do in Virtual Machines
[18:25] <kirkland> without b0rking your lovely desktop :-)
[18:26] <kirkland> so there are a lot more fancy things that you can do with kvm from the command line
[18:26] <kirkland> if you look at the manpage
[18:26] <kirkland> man kvm
[18:26] <kirkland> you should see dozens of other options
[18:26] <kirkland> lots of them are very useful
[18:26] <kirkland> i use an "alias" in my .bashrc that adds a bunch of them for me
[18:26] <kirkland> /usr/bin/kvm -m 512 -smp 2 -usb -usbdevice tablet -net nic,model=virtio -net tap,script=$HOME/bin/bridge.sh -soundhw es1370 $ARGS
[18:26] <kirkland> something like that, I find useful
[18:27] <kirkland> i like to give my guests 512M of memory
[18:27] <kirkland> and 2 cpus
[18:27] <kirkland> i use usbdevice tablet which makes the mouse/cursor behave a little better when moving in and out of vm's
[18:27] <kirkland> i also use "virtio" for networking and disk, which makes both of those about 10x faster
[18:28] <kirkland> and i have a bridging script that puts my VMs on the same network as my PC
[18:28] <kirkland> and i enable sound in my guests too
[18:28] <kirkland> OKAY
[18:28] <kirkland> so all of that is the command line KVM
[18:28] <kirkland> before I switch over to GUI virt-manager ... let's take a few more questions....
[18:28] <kirkland> akgraner: anything queued up?
[18:28] <akgraner> yep
 Question: is there specific BIOS's better suited to VT/KVM?
[18:29] <kirkland> Jeruvy: hmm, not really...  i have both AMD and Intel CPUs, both of which support KVM very well
[18:29] <kirkland> Jeruvy: i like AMD slightly better right now, because those CPUs support "nested" virtualization
[18:29] <kirkland> Jeruvy: which means that I can run VMs that run VMs :-)
[18:30] <kirkland> Jeruvy: but BIOS doesn't really matter
[18:30] <kirkland> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: With the commands you gave, will the guest OS be able to access the usb ports, etc?
[18:30] <kirkland> Mindfulgeek: not with the commands I gave, however, there is a -usb option
[18:30] <kirkland> Mindfulgeek: take a look at the kvm manpage
[18:31] <kirkland> Mindfulgeek: look for the -usb option
[18:31] <kirkland> Mindfulgeek: basically, you'll pass -usb Address:To:Usb:Device
[18:31] <kirkland> Mindfulgeek: according to the addressing shown by lsusb
[18:31] <kirkland> Mindfulgeek: note that the user launching the kvm line will need read/write access to that usb device
[18:32] <kirkland> Mindfulgeek: if you're looking for help online, search for "kvm usb passthrough"
[18:32] <kirkland> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: but testing on a VM limits a lot the coverage basically all kvm are equal (same hardware)...
[18:32] <kirkland> erUSUL: perhaps...  KVM isn't suitable for really testing Ubuntu on different hardware
[18:33] <kirkland> erUSUL: however, it's really valuable for testing non-hardware features
[18:33] <kirkland> erUSUL: splash screens
[18:33] <kirkland> erUSUL: artwork
[18:33] <kirkland> erUSUL: user interface stuff
[18:33] <kirkland> erUSUL: any python/perl/ruby whatever code that doesn't care about what kernel or hardware you're running
[18:33] <kirkland> erUSUL: server stuff, like web applications
[18:33] <kirkland> erUSUL: etc. etc. etc.
[18:33] <kirkland> erUSUL: there's plenty of usefulness to testing in KVM
[18:34] <kirkland> akgraner: okay, let's get back to virt-manager, and i'll take some more questions shortly
[18:34] <kirkland> okay, so command line is fine and dandy, but it's not for everyone
[18:34] <kirkland> assuming you've installed virt-manager, launch virt-manager with:
[18:34] <kirkland> Applications -> System Tools -> Virtual Machine Manager
[18:35] <kirkland> double click on localhost (System)
[18:35] <kirkland> this will attach virt-manager to the libvirt daemon running on your local system
[18:35] <kirkland> however, this is what's cool ....
[18:35] <kirkland> let's say you're working on your little Dell netbook computer, which doesn't have VT
[18:36] <kirkland> but you have a big beasty quad-core under your desk that *does* have VT
[18:36] <kirkland> you can use virt-manager to remotely manage VMs over on big beasty
[18:36] <kirkland> to do that, you'd use File -> Add Connection
[18:36] <kirkland> and establish an SSH tunnel over to that other machine
[18:37] <kirkland> however, for now, let's work locally
[18:37] <kirkland> so once my connection to localhost (System) is Active, i can create a new virtual machine
[18:37] <kirkland> right click on localhost (System) and select New
[18:37] <kirkland> this should pop open a *really* straight forward wizard
[18:37] <kirkland> perhaps more what you're looking for than command line, i don't know
[18:38] <kirkland> give your vm a name
[18:38] <kirkland> "foo"
[18:38] <kirkland> and choose "local install media", ISO image or CDROM
[18:38] <kirkland> since we already have an ISO
[18:38] <kirkland> note that you could also pop in a CDROM into your computer's drive
[18:38] <kirkland> also, note that in my examples, we're running Ubuntu on Ubuntu
[18:39] <kirkland> you could also run Fedora, RHEL, CentOS, Debian, SuSE, or even Windows
[18:39] <kirkland> click "Forward"
[18:39] <kirkland> and browse to your ISO image that you downloaded earlier
[18:39] <kirkland> you can select your OS Type and Version
[18:40] <kirkland> these aren't mandatory, but they do enable some advanced features if you do
[18:40] <kirkland> click forward
[18:40] <kirkland> choose some amount of RAM and CPU to give to your VM
[18:40] <kirkland> i'm giving 512M and 1 CPU
[18:40] <kirkland> since my other cpu is busy
[18:40] <kirkland> and now, create your disk image for the VM
[18:40] <kirkland> it defaults to 8G
[18:40] <kirkland> we did 6 earlier
[18:40] <kirkland> either should work
[18:40] <kirkland> depends really on what you're installing
[18:41] <kirkland> you can also either allocate your entire disk now, or just allocate it on the fly
[18:41] <kirkland> i usually just allocate it on the fly
[18:41] <kirkland> that allows me to store more VMs on my system
[18:41] <kirkland> however, i have to be mindful of how much disk space I have on my physical machine
[18:41] <kirkland> it's not good to over commit ;-)
[18:41] <kirkland> i click forward and i should get an opportunity to review my VM
[18:42] <kirkland> and I click Finish to launch it
[18:42] <kirkland> i see the boot loader screen
[18:42] <kirkland> and choose to Try Ubuntu
[18:42] <kirkland> about a minute later, I should be back in the Ubuntu desktop
[18:42] <kirkland> now, there's a few advantages of doing this using virt-manager instead of by the command line
[18:42] <kirkland> for one thing, it's much more useful if i want to use this vm again and again
[18:43] <kirkland> as it will be in my list in virt-manager until such time as I delete it
[18:43] <kirkland> it's also just a point and click away from launching
[18:43] <kirkland> rather than typing in the whole command line
[18:43] <kirkland> in the virtual machine window, you can also see the details of the vm
[18:43] <kirkland> click the Details tab
[18:44] <kirkland> you should see each of the items associated with this vm
[18:44] <kirkland> some of these can be changed dynamically
[18:44] <kirkland> others need to be added/removed when the VM is not running
[18:44] <kirkland> you can play around with this
[18:44] <kirkland> so there's a *lot* more that I could show
[18:45] <kirkland> but I feel like I should save the rest of the time for questions, since there seems to be a bunch
[18:45] <kirkland> I hope I've encouraged you to go play with virtualization in Ubuntu
[18:45] <kirkland> KVM is really cool
[18:45] <kirkland> and Virt-Manager uses KVM under the covers
[18:45] <kirkland> akgraner: fire away :-)
 Question: if you are running an OS that requires 256MB of RAM and run another in KVM that requires 256MB, will you need a total of 512MB, or does i
[18:46] <kirkland> Jesi-Idle: yeah, pretty much right now
[18:46] <kirkland> Jesi-Idle: there is some work upstream on something (badly) named KSM
[18:46] <kirkland> ksm = kernel shared memory
[18:47] <kirkland> which allows similar guests to use the same memory, where that memory is identical
[18:47] <kirkland> think about a VM farm launching 10 identical VMs
[18:47] <kirkland> a lot of the static kernel stuff will be similar among them
[18:47] <kirkland> so they could share certain portions
[18:47] <kirkland> Jesi-Idle: but in general, it's a good idea not to over commit
[18:47] <kirkland> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: do kvm guests have time issues like in vmware for example (clocks too fast, too slow etc) ?
[18:48] <kirkland> cemc: occasionally; though I think KVM is better about this than most hypervisors
[18:48] <kirkland> cemc: i actually use CPU frequency scaling on my hosts
[18:48] <kirkland> cemc: which definitely screws up other hypervisors, having a CPU who's frequency is jumping around
[18:48] <kirkland> cemc: it seems to work well for me
[18:49] <kirkland> cemc: there is one particular type of AMD processor with VT and freq scaling that is broken
[18:49] <kirkland> cemc: and I happen to have 4 of them, but there are work arounds
[18:49] <kirkland> cemc: i can either: a) pin the cpu at a certian speed, or b) boot the guest with noapic on the kernel line
[18:49] <kirkland> akgraner: next?
 Question: if you are running an OS that requires 256MB of RAM and run another in KVM that requires 256MB, will you need a total of 512MB, or does it not work this way? in other words, how do requirements stack?
[18:50] <akgraner> sorry
[18:50] <kirkland> akgraner: next
 kirkland: I have an older P4 640 which as some sort of 64-bit extension, but I've never tried installing a 64-bit OS with it. The same goes with KVM; how do I know if it's supported?? What can I do to test?
[18:50] <kirkland> brettalton: cat /proc/cpuinfo
[18:50] <kirkland> brettalton: that will tell you everything about it
[18:50] <kirkland> brettalton: if it's older than 2 years, it almost certainly does not have VT
[18:51] <kirkland> brettalton: look in the flags for "vmx" or "svm".  if you have either of those, you have VT.  if not, you don't.
[18:51] <kirkland> akgraner: next?
 QUESTION: can u boot a vm from a physical disk? e.g. in a dual
[18:51] <kirkland> amichair: you can
[18:51] <kirkland> amichair: and performance can actually be really high
[18:52] <kirkland> amichair: you can even give vm's their own partition or LVM volume
[18:52] <kirkland> amichair: i don't like to do this, though, as there's not enough flexibility for me
[18:52] <kirkland> i have 27 vm's on my laptop right nwo
[18:52] <kirkland> in .img file format
[18:52] <kirkland> but I don't have 27 disk, or 27 partitions ;-)
[18:52] <kirkland> it's a matter of choice though
[18:52] <kirkland> akgraner: next?
 Question: so it dosent matter what your chipset architecture is if your testing Ubuntu in KVM because it doesnt apply to how KVM works?  just want to make sure I understand here
[18:53] <kirkland> Jesi-Idle: hmm, well, it does sort of matter
[18:53] <kirkland> Jesi-Idle: KVM (accelerated virtualization) only really works on i686 and amd64
[18:53] <kirkland> Jesi-Idle: it sort of works on PPC and s390, but we don't really support those in Ubuntu
[18:54] <kirkland> Jesi-Idle: there's also QEMU
[18:54] <kirkland> Jesi-Idle: which is pure *emulation*
[18:54] <kirkland> Jesi-Idle: but that's ungodly slow
[18:54] <kirkland> akgraner: next?
 kirkland: so what's the consensus with all the different hypervisors out there? for open source ones that can run on Ubuntu, use KVM if your processor has it, use virt-manager if you want a GUI, use Xen if that's your personal preference and use VirtualBox if your CPU doesn't support KVM??
[18:55] <kirkland> brettalton: it's going to be hard for me to answer that one objectively
[18:55] <kirkland> brettalton: so I'm not going to try to be objective ....
[18:55] <kirkland> brettalton: Use KVM if you can (ie, if your CPU supports it)
[18:55] <kirkland> you'll get by far the best performance out there
[18:55] <kirkland> and full support from Ubuntu, Canonical, and upstream
[18:55] <kirkland> this is really where the momentum is with developers right now
[18:56] <kirkland> Xen is a reasonable option if your hardware doesn't support KVM
[18:56] <kirkland> but Xen is not officially supported by Canonical;  it is in Universe, and there are some good people looking after it
[18:56] <kirkland> but every day that goes by, more new hardware ships with VT
[18:56] <kirkland> and Xen slowly eeks its way out
[18:56] <kirkland> I don't have much experience with VirtualBox
[18:57] <kirkland> though I understand it's quite popular
[18:57] <kirkland> it's slow compared to KVM
[18:57] <kirkland> and it, like Xen, is a universe-only project
[18:57] <kirkland> if it meets your needs, that's great; i'm glad you're happy with it
[18:57] <kirkland> as for virt-manager, it's a useful GUI
[18:57] <kirkland> not perfect, by any stretch
[18:57] <kirkland> but if you want to use virt, and need a GUI, it's a decent option
[18:58] <kirkland> me, i'm a command-line only sort of guy
[18:58] <kirkland> akgraner: one more ...
 QUESTION: how much is the performance penalty on using an img vs. a physical partition?
[18:58] <kirkland> cemc: i'm not sure exactly
[18:58] <kirkland> cemc: but I always use disk images and virtio, and that's really quick
[18:59] <kirkland> cemc: i can't really say;  if you benchmark it, let me know
[18:59] <kirkland> all, thanks for your attention
[18:59] <kirkland> and good questions
[18:59] <kirkland> I hope you enjoyed this presentation
[18:59] <jcastro> thanks kirkland!
[19:00] <kirkland> with that, I'm handing it back to akgraner ....
[19:00] <akgraner> Thanks kirkland  Awesome session!!
[19:00]  * stgraber waves to everyone
[19:00] <jcastro> ok next we have edubuntu
[19:00] <jcastro> take it away!
[19:01] <stgraber> Hey everyone, I'm Stéphane Graber (french for Stefan).
[19:01] <stgraber> I live in Quebec, Canada and work as LTSP developer and Ubuntu liaison for Revolution Linux.
[19:01] <stgraber> LTSP stands for Linux Terminal Server Project and is about having
[19:01] <stgraber> thin clients booting (ed)Ubuntu from a central server.
[19:01] <stgraber> My friend and fellow Edubuntu council member, Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)
[19:01] <stgraber> also started working for Revolution Linux this week !!
[19:02]  * stgraber waves to highvoltage
[19:02] <highvoltage> hi everyone!
[19:02] <stgraber> In the Ubuntu community I'm mostly known as
[19:02] <stgraber> an Edubuntu council member and Ubuntu core developer
[19:02] <stgraber> mostly working on LTSP (that I maintain and develop),
[19:02] <stgraber> Education, Community (I'm part of the EMEA membership approval boards)
[19:02] <stgraber> and the QA team (ISO testing).
[19:02] <stgraber> Now, enough about me, let's speak of Edubuntu !
[19:02] <stgraber> For this session, I'll start by a quick reminder of what Edubuntu is as it's been released in Karmic,
[19:02] <stgraber> then we'll look back at Edubuntu's history for a bit
[19:02] <stgraber> and then I'll quickly go through our short, middle and long term goals.
[19:03] <stgraber> Then during the remaining time, I'll be answering any question you may have.
[19:03] <stgraber> Now, a quick reminder of what Edubuntu is (but all of you already know right ? ;))
[19:03] <stgraber> For those of you who haven't heard the name before, Edubuntu is an Ubuntu derivative for education.
[19:03] <stgraber> It's aimed for usage at school, at home with children as well as in high school and university on the server.
[19:04] <stgraber> The distribution itself is directly based on Ubuntu
[19:04] <stgraber> with which it shares its desktop environment (gnome)
[19:04] <stgraber> and all of the Ubuntu software and then, on top of that, adds a lot of educational software.
[19:05] <stgraber> Edubuntu also optionally let's you install a LTSP server
[19:05] <stgraber> so you can then have thin clients or regular computers boot on the network
[19:05] <stgraber> and run Edubuntu in no time with nothing installed on their harddisks.
[19:05] <stgraber> In karmic, it comes under the form of a DVD image for 32 and 64 bit CPUs.
[19:05]  * stgraber waves to LaserJock too
[19:06] <stgraber> It's mostly thanks to Jordan (LaserJock) that we had a rocking Karmic release and are back on www.distrowatch.com !
[19:06]  * LaserJock waves to everybody
[19:06] <highvoltage> and ranking #26 for the last week as well!
[19:06] <stgraber> Now, before I quickly go through our plans for the future, let's speak of the past a little bit
[19:06] <stgraber> The Edubuntu project started in 2005 with 5.10 (Breezy Badger), then improved over the years as Ubuntu did.
[19:06] <stgraber> LTSP was included in Edubuntu making it more and more used mainly in the classrooms.
[19:07] <stgraber> An education server component was also added by packaging SchoolTool and Moodle.
[19:07] <stgraber> At some point (8.04 LTS - Hardy Heron), it was decided that Edubuntu wouldn't continue to be a distribution
[19:07] <stgraber> and would instead become a simple addon on top of Ubuntu.
[19:07] <stgraber> This change was criticised by most of our users as it was making Edubuntu's installation a lot harder and longer than it used to be.
[19:07] <stgraber> Also there was no longer a Live environment that you could use to demo or test Edubuntu.
[19:07] <stgraber> It took us over a year of meeting, discussions with Canonical and our users to revert that change in Karmic where we are a real distribution again !
[19:08] <stgraber> and as highvoltage noted, we seem to have done it quite well for a "dead" distro (as distrowatch used to call us for a while) !!
[19:08] <stgraber> Regarding LTSP, during 8.04's development cycle, LTSP was moved to Ubuntu Alternate and we wanted to keep it that way as it lets more users install LTSP.
[19:09] <stgraber> Though we also included it on the Edubuntu DVD so one can install a regular workstation, a server or simply use the Live CD without touching his harddisk.
[19:09] <stgraber> Before I start speaking of our goals, any question at this point ?
[19:11] <highvoltage> 21:10 < Jesi-Idle> Question: will you still be able to add the Edubuntu packages to your Ubuntu install?
[19:11] <stgraber> absolutely
[19:11] <stgraber> Educational softwares still appear in the software center
[19:11] <highvoltage> 21:10 < AlanBell> QUESTION: how do you have something suitable for education from pre-school through to university?
[19:12] <highvoltage> AlanBell: short answer: we don't completely, it's one of our aims and goals though so as time progresses we would hopefully fill more and more gaps
[19:13] <stgraber> Our approach is to have all applications on the DVD, then users can either install them all and filter them or only install the ones they want.
[19:13] <LaserJock> mind if I mention something on that one?
[19:13] <stgraber> LaserJock: please do
[19:13] <LaserJock> Edubuntu was structured to be somewhat modular
[19:14] <LaserJock> we've created what we call "application bundles" for Pre-school, Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary aged students
[19:14] <LaserJock> in the future we would like to not only do that with our applications
[19:14] <LaserJock> but also with themes (we currently have 2 different themes, one for kids and a plain one for older students)
[19:15] <LaserJock> so we make it work by being highly modular and hopefully flexible enough for users to decide wha they need
[19:15] <LaserJock> done
[19:15] <highvoltage> 21:11 < AlanBell> QUESTION in the UK and other countries there is a standardised national curriculum for schools, what is being done to ensure the whole thing can be taught on Edubuntu?
[19:17] <stgraber> Basically, with that modularity LaserJock mentioned, we should be able to filter through the menu and show only what's applicable to a certain region/school system
[19:17] <stgraber> it's part of our goals for 10.04 to be able to propose that kind of adaptation to the different school systems and countries
[19:18] <LaserJock> it will also likely take support from Ubuntu Local teams to help
[19:18] <stgraber> absolutely
[19:18] <LaserJock> Edubuntu can't know about all the standards of every country around the world
[19:19] <highvoltage> We would welcome contributions that would make Edubuntu more curriculum-friendly for any area though
[19:19] <stgraber> indeed, we'll need input from the loco teams on that
[19:20] <stgraber> I'll take one more question and continue, there will be room for more questions at the end
[19:20] <highvoltage> 21:11 < Jesi-Idle> Question: Edubuntu is great, I enjoy it and think it could be a great resource for many students, and teachers... but it doesn't matter how great Edubuntu becomes if we don't get people to use it, how whould you suggest one go about encouraging schools in their area to try Edubuntu?
[19:21] <stgraber> I believe that locoteam would be a good way to spread the word
[19:21] <highvoltage> Schools have a big problem in that their often left with products that are unsupported
[19:21] <highvoltage> I think if you can show them that you'll hold their hand and give them support,
[19:21] <highvoltage> and that there's a large community out there that can help them maintain their system,
[19:22] <LaserJock> With Edubuntu 9.10 DVD you can also do live demo's to help people see what's available
[19:22] <highvoltage> they'd be more inclined to try it out and keep using it as well
[19:22] <stgraber> thanks for all the questions so far, now I'll quickly go through our goals for the next few months, then I'll be taking questions again.
[19:22] <stgraber> so, our short term goals
[19:23] <stgraber> As some may have noticed, the current Edubuntu Council is only made of two members (Jonathan and I) as Jordan has resigned due to time constraints from his new job.
[19:23] <stgraber> So we will be having elections quite soon to get the council to at least 4 members and then 5 members (our goal).
[19:23]  * stgraber wants to thank LaserJock again for the awesome work on Edubuntu he did over the last few years
[19:23] <highvoltage> ++
[19:23] <stgraber> Also, we have been working on a few documents that will help us get more and more contributors.
[19:24] <stgraber> That includes cleaning up the wiki a bit, creating task list for new contributors and improving our website.
[19:24] <stgraber> that's our goals for the next months or so, that way we'll be ready to work on Lucid
[19:24] <stgraber> Our middle term goals mostly focus on the next LTS release, 10.4 Lucid Lynx.
[19:24] <stgraber> The main changes we thought about so far and that will be discussed at UDS are:
[19:24] <stgraber>  - Having LTSP available in the LiveCD
[19:25] <stgraber>  - Avoid the text installer (saves space) except for server installation (Moodle for example)
[19:25] <stgraber>  - Add more applications and improve the ones already present (general goal)
[19:25] <stgraber>  - Work on the menus so we can easily show what's best for the user (depending on its country, language and grade)
[19:25] <stgraber>  - Include more packages from sister projects (Qimo, Guadalinex)
[19:25] <stgraber> (I hope I didn't forget anything major here ...)
[19:26] <stgraber> Our long term goals are quite obvious:
[19:26] <stgraber>  - Get more contributors !!
[19:26] <stgraber> That's probably the most important one ;)
[19:26] <stgraber>  - Easily configure the distribution so it matches the user's usage (country, region, language, ...) as the need in education is extremely different depending on where you are
[19:26] <stgraber>  - Propose other installation medias and maybe other "editions" (netbook ?)
[19:27] <stgraber> I see some questions on -chat, we'll be taking them again in a few minutes and will have plenty of time to answer them all
[19:27] <stgraber> Now, I hope that some of you want to join us ;)
[19:27] <stgraber> If you are interested in contributing to the Edubuntu project, you are more than welcome.
[19:28] <stgraber> You can easily get in touch with us on IRC (#edubuntu) or on our mailing lists (edubuntu-users and edubuntu-devel on http://lists.ubuntu.com).
[19:28] <stgraber> Feedback, help with bugs, new developers and more generally great people hanging around are welcome to join.
[19:28] <stgraber> If you attend the Ubuntu Developer Summit in Dallas (16-20 Nov), I'll be there and will be scheduling a few sessions.
[19:29] <LaserJock> The Edubuntu team hangs out in #edubuntu naturally enough
[19:29] <LaserJock> also the edubuntu-devel mailing list (on lists.ubuntu.com) is a great place to get involved
[19:29] <stgraber> That's basically it as far as presenting the project and our goals is concerned, I'll be taking questions again and will of course appreciate the input from LaserJock and highvoltage
[19:30] <highvoltage> 21:15 < Jesi-Idle> Question: this isn't really a question as much as it is a suggestion, so I'm sorry if it's out of place but one thing I think would great for Edubuntu is if we could gather free educational texts like study guides and reviews and package them
[19:30] <highvoltage> There's lots of requests for off-line content, especially in bandwidth deprived areas, and there are some nice content available out there, like the wikipedia for schools project
[19:31] <highvoltage> I'm going to compbine two questions here:
[19:31] <highvoltage> 21:17 < dscassel> Question: Are there institutions/districts that have rolled out Edubuntu you can tell us about?  Any success stories?
[19:31] <highvoltage> 21:18 < FrozenZia> Question: Follwing up on dscassel's Q, I'd be particularly interested in hearing about schools making use of old/refurbished computers...
[19:32] <LaserJock> well, I'll give a personal, non-school example
[19:32] <highvoltage> I worked on a project in South Africa where we installed 200+ computer labs using edubuntu and refurbished computers, there's a little write-up about it at http://jonathancarter.co.za/files/static/docs/tuxlabs.pdf
[19:32] <LaserJock> I recently gave an old ClassmatePC I had with Edubuntu on it to a neighbor boy, 4 years old
[19:32] <LaserJock> he loves it and his parents love it
[19:32] <LaserJock> in fact he just got a Wii and his parents told me they would rather he play on Edubuntu
[19:33] <stgraber> As I mentioned at the beginning, I'm working on LTSP-Cluster, that's large scale (hundreds to a few thousands thin clients) deployment of LTSP mostly in schools. They often don't directly use Edubuntu though they use the packages we maintain and debug. Some of them use new thin clients, some other use old computers (PIII being great as thin client for example)
[19:33] <highvoltage> 21:21 < mhall1191work> QUESTION: What tools does Edubuntu include to help teachers?  Things like lesson planning, gradebooks, attendance, etc
[19:34] <stgraber> currently, the main tool we ship that helps teachers is iTalc for classroom management (see what the students are doing)
[19:34] <stgraber> we also maintain Moodle for course management
[19:34] <stgraber> highvoltage, LaserJock: Something I forgot ?
[19:34] <LaserJock> hopefully in the future SchoolTool might also be included
[19:34] <highvoltage> I believe Schooltool would also be useful, it's not in Ubuntu at the moment due to broken dependencies
[19:34] <LaserJock> we're always open to suggestions
[19:34] <highvoltage> but it most probably will be again in the future
[19:35] <highvoltage> 21:25 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Do you think that  Edubuntu should become the only OS for a school?  Or do you think  students/pupils should be learning Windows as well, but maybe also Mac OS X if schools can afford to buy Macs?
[19:35] <LaserJock> of course ;-)
[19:35] <highvoltage> I believe that it would be good if a school can get by by only using Edubuntu, I don't think we'll ever want it to be a requirement
[19:36] <LaserJock> I think schools should use what works
[19:36] <LaserJock> Edubuntu will probably not fit *every* use case
[19:36] <stgraber> I think that showing different OS may be interesting for schools though we should be able to cover all their needs with Edubuntu
[19:36] <highvoltage> 21:31 < mhall1191work> QUESTION: Does Edubuntu do anything specifically for OLPC laptops?
[19:37] <highvoltage> we had some people involved who worked on packaging the Sugar interface for Ubuntu
[19:37] <LaserJock> that would be a great area for people to get involved with
[19:39] <highvoltage> 21:32 < bob3> QUESTION: For schools, the cost of setting up a lab is obviously very important. How much would an Edubuntu classroom of 40 computers cost considering that it would be using LTSP. What are the required specifications for the clients and for the server?
[19:39] <stgraber> starting with jaunty and now karmic, we have local applications working quite well
[19:40] <stgraber> in the past, the main issue with LTSP was firefox which was killing a server quite easily
[19:40] <stgraber> now, if your thin client is powerful enough (atom based being the best for new hardware or P3 with ~500M of memory) you can run these softwares locally
[19:40] <stgraber> and keep the others on the server
[19:40] <stgraber> that helps decrease the load considerably
[19:41] <stgraber> so for 40 computers, if they are capable of running local applications, I would think it's possible with a good dual-core and some 4GB of RAM
[19:41] <stgraber> network also needs to be good
[19:41] <stgraber> where I work, we can put up to 150 users on a dual-quadcore with 16GB of RAM, that's clearly entirely different hardware but that may give you an idea
[19:42] <highvoltage> QUESTION: Did you know that someone is selling ClassmatePCs loaded with Edubuntu? http://tinyurl.com/edubuntu
[19:42] <stgraber> if you need more specific information, feel free to poke me a bit later
[19:42] <highvoltage> We know of quite a few cases where Edubuntu is sold with PC's, personally I didn't know about that specific one yet.
[19:43] <LaserJock> one of the problems with running an open source distro that you give away for free is you never really know where it goes :-)
[19:43] <highvoltage> 21:36 < mhall1191work> QUESTION: For a large lab, getting a server with enough memory can be a challenge.  What options are there for labs with a memory-constrained server?
[19:43] <stgraber> development for the classmate was initialiy done by Canonical and Ubuntu improved so it works "quite" well on it. I personaly own a Classmate with Edubuntu too ;) (though not this one)
[19:43] <highvoltage> I think that ties in with what stgraber said earlier, if you use local apps, you can reduce memory usage on a server drastically
[19:44] <stgraber> indeed, same thing, if you want more detailed information, feel free to poke me directly as it depends on quite a few variables to determine what kind of hardware requirement you'll have
[19:44] <highvoltage> you can also use a smaller footprint user interface such as LXDE, although you'll lose out on some tools and functionality
[19:44] <stgraber> highvoltage: indeed, that may help, or even only running the applications you need (kind-of kiosk mode) if applicable
[19:46] <highvoltage> any answers that need clarification or further questions?
[19:46] <highvoltage> 21:45 < slacker_nl> QUESTION: does edubuntu also have tools for teachers and principals for student administration? or is that not the goal for edubuntu?
[19:47] <stgraber> I guess that's the goal with schooltool, though it's not in yet
[19:47] <highvoltage> We will include Schooltool (http://schooltool.org/) again once some of its packaging problems have been addressed
[19:47] <stgraber> but if someone is interested on working on it, that'd absolutely be great and it looks like a great tool to have
[19:48] <highvoltage> 21:47 < ewaldmire> QUESTION:  Will SchoolTool possibly be included in an update to Karmic, or will this have to wait until 10.04?
[19:49] <LaserJock> 10.04 I think
[19:49] <highvoltage> I doubt there would be a backport available for karmic, I think the Zope dependencies is the problem for karmic
[19:49] <LaserJock> SchoolTool does have a PPA
[19:49] <highvoltage> so 10.04 at the soonest officially
[19:49] <stgraber> 10.04 would be great, then we can backport or you can use the PPA
[19:50] <highvoltage> 21:47 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:  I assume  that most/all of Edubuntu can  still be installed into a standard  Ubuntu install  using for example sudo apt-get install edubuntu-desktop
[19:50] <LaserJock> and also edubuntu-desktop-kde for Kubuntu users
[19:50] <stgraber> yes, we still have package bundles and the edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde packages
[19:51] <highvoltage> Absolutely! All of Edubuntu can be installed on an Ubuntu system, you can do a search in your favourite package manager for "edubuntu" to find the edubuntu meta-packages
[19:51] <stgraber> you can also install individual softwares through the new software center
[19:53] <highvoltage> I want to add that we have an IRC channel on this network- #edubuntu, all of you are welcome to pop in at any time even if it's just to say hi or to ask a quick question
[19:53] <highvoltage> otherwise you're more than welcome to also lurk around and contribute when you can
[19:54] <highvoltage> it's not an extremely busy channel so you won't get spammed too much :)
[19:54] <stgraber> Before giving the room to Elizabeth Krumbach with "Women in Open Source - Issues", I want to quickly give a few useful links:
[19:54] <stgraber>  - http://www.edubuntu.org obviously
[19:54] <stgraber>  - http://www.ltsp.org for LTSP
[19:54] <stgraber>  - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP as documentation for LTSP in Ubuntu
[19:54] <stgraber> ^ there's great stuff there
[19:54] <stgraber>  - http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/karmic/release/ for those who'd like to download Edubuntu
[19:55] <highvoltage> stgraber: we still have a few minutes right?
[19:55] <stgraber> absolutely
[19:55] <highvoltage> 21:52 < ewaldmire> QUESTION: Can you give a brief description/update on LTSP-Cluster or any other ability to use multiple LTSP servers for  Edubuntu (with load balancing?)
[19:56] <stgraber> sure
[19:56] <highvoltage> LTSP-Clustee also has a nice web interface where you can manage your thin client settings without having to edit lts.conf by text file
[19:56] <stgraber> especially as I'm the main developer of LTSP-Cluster and now helped by highvoltage at Revolution Linux
[19:56] <stgraber> basically it provides you with a few of seeing your whole LTSP network
[19:57] <stgraber> configure it with that web interface
[19:57] <stgraber> have a lot of servers that will report their state to a central load balancer
[19:57] <highvoltage> 21:53 < Jesi-Idle> Question: What plans does Edubuntu have for students with special needs?
[19:57] <stgraber> which will in turn be used by the thin client before connection so you spread your load on all your servers
[19:57] <highvoltage> (sorry to cut you short there a bit stgraber)
[19:57] <stgraber> no problem
[19:58] <LaserJock> I would love to see people with a passion for special needs students and adults with learning disabilities join the Edubuntu cause
[19:58] <highvoltage> in terms of special needs, I speak under correction but I think it's an area that we should perhaps spend some focus on at some point
[19:59] <highvoltage> I've seen adult people who can't read who gained a lot by using some of the reading and touch-typing software
[19:59] <LaserJock> this is an area where Linux and the Ubuntu project can really shine, in my opinion
[19:59] <highvoltage> even tuxmath :)
[19:59] <LaserJock> but we need help
[20:00] <stgraber> Thanks everyone for attending and for the great questions you asked.
[20:00] <highvoltage> LaserJock, stgraber I guess that's a wrap?
[20:00] <highvoltage> thanks everyone! we'll continue on #edubuntu
[20:01] <stgraber> feel free to join #edubuntu if you have more questions or if you simply want to talk
[20:01] <jcastro> thanks guys!
[20:01] <jcastro> ok next up we have pleia2 with Women in Open Source!
[20:01] <jcastro> take it away pleia2
[20:01] <pleia2> Hi everyone! Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week Session on the Ubuntu Women Project: Women in Free Software Issues
[20:01] <pleia2> My name is Elizabeth Krumbach. I currently work as a Debian and Ubuntu Systems Administrator for a Philadelphia-based Linux-centric technology services provider. I became involved in the Ubuntu Women project as soon as I found out about it in the spring of 2006.
[20:02] <pleia2> Aside from Ubuntu Women work, I'm a member of the Community Council. I'm currently heavily involved with the LoCo Teams projects, specifically with my own state of Pennsylvania and the greater work of the US Teams Mentoring program. I also work on the Ubuntu Community Learning Project (which I did an UOW session for Tuesday).
[20:02] <pleia2> On also I contribute upstream some as a Debian Package Maintainer and am the sysadmin for the Ubuntu Pennsylvania Team Linode.
[20:03] <pleia2> In this session I'm going to give a general introduction to the Ubuntu Women Project, explain why we feel such a project is important.
[20:03] <pleia2> Then we'll go into a Q&A session. Following this session Mackenzie Morgan will be hosting a session about ways to resolve some of the issues I will discuss - so if you have questions about actually solving the problems, I suggest you wait for her session :)
[20:04] <pleia2> So, I am going to start out by saying that I am not speaking for all women in F/OSS or all women Ubuntu, that would be impossible! The opinions of women inside and outside of the Ubuntu Women project vary widely.
[20:04] <pleia2> While discussing "Issues" I am drawing from my own experiences and experiences of other women within F/OSS communities that curb or prevent participation, these experiences are not shared by every woman who becomes involved, but do impact many.
[20:05] <pleia2> Now, to the resources! The official website for the Ubuntu Women project is http://women.ubuntu.com. From there you can get to all our other resources, including our Mailing list, Forums, Launchpad and Wiki.
[20:05] <pleia2> History-wise, the project was loosely founded on the forums and in IRC in the summer of 2005. It was extended by Vidya Ayer to mailing lists and a website, and became an official team in early 2006.
[20:06] <pleia2> Intitally it was modeled closely after the Debian Women (http://women.debian.org) project, but since their focus was primarily getting women to become Developers it quickly became apparent that the Ubuntu Women approach would have to have a much broader focus, encouraging women to be a part of every facet of Ubuntu.
[20:07] <pleia2> Before I get into the details of why we have the project, I want to emphasise that we have a very serious committment to not being separatist or exclusive.
[20:07] <pleia2> If you join our IRC channel, mailing list or forums you'll find both men and women involved in the project. We have no gender requirement placed upon our members, anyone who is interested in getting more women involved is welcome to join us, so please do!
[20:08] <pleia2> The main goal of the entire project is to get more women involved with the general Ubuntu community. As such, separatism would defeat the whole goal of this project.
[20:09] <pleia2> And really, the "#1 Bug" in the Ubuntu Women Project is the need for the project to exist. We would like to be able to dissolve the project in the future when more women are comfortable getting involved themselves.
[20:09] <pleia2> So, why do we feel this project is important?
[20:09] <pleia2> Simply put, those of us who are involved with Ubuntu Women believe that everyone has the potential be a valuable resource for the Ubuntu project and we should work to be inclusive and encouraging.
[20:10] <pleia2> We've chosen to focus upon becoming well-versed in the issues currently facing women specifically in the community so we can shape our project to cater to those issues.
[20:10] <pleia2> Does anyone have any questions about the premise of the project before I discuss what kinds of issues many women encounter?
[20:12] <pleia2> ok, I'll move on then... What are these issues?
[20:12] <pleia2> We don't want to dwell on the past because we want to move forward in a positive and encouraging way, but for the record, there have been a few incidents which have caused women within the project to either leave or pull back involvement, these are documented here: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Ubuntu
[20:13] <pleia2> Looking at these incidents by themselves may not seem like much, but the culture within F/OSS is such that such incidents compound an already very male-dominated space where as a minority many women feel uncomfortable.
[20:14] <pleia2> This discomfort comes from a variety of things, but frequently stems from being (or feeling like) you're the only woman in a room/project/irc channel/etc
[20:14] <pleia2> As much as I love and appreciate the men I work with on projects, it's comforting to not be the sole representive of a minority within a community :)
[20:15] <pleia2> Many women in F/OSS also frequently receive tongue-in-cheek marriage proposals from strangers upon learning they use Linux (it's not really that funny, we've heard it before, and at this point it's off-putting), among the frequently less flattering comments asking for pictures or assumptions being made about your looks.
[20:16] <pleia2> Many have been exposed to situations where they were part of an audience at an event where the speaker or audience member makes remarks assuming the audience is all male (please, please don't start another presentation at a tech event with "welcome, gentlemen!")
[20:17] <pleia2> There are often assumptions being made that you're attending an event as a "just a girlfriend or wife" rather than an actual contributor - and then there is the resulting shock when people learn you're actually involved.
[20:18] <pleia2> And in some cultures, there is still a stigma against women holding leadership positions, so even in F/OSS a vocal minority of detractors may make it difficult for women in these areas. Even with support from much of the team, these detractors are exhausting and cause many women to avoid getting too involved.
[20:20] <pleia2> There is also an atmosphere in a lot F/OSS projects that's a bit like a men's locker room, or a boys club where crude and sexist behavior is the norm (I don't see much of this in Ubuntu itself, but it is an image within F/OSS that we need to combat)
[20:20] <pleia2> All this boils down to is a culture where you are not only a minority, but you're constantly reminded that you're a minority and when you start being unsure about your committment? It makes it that much easier to give up, or not even start getting involved at all!
[20:20] <pleia2> < highvoltage> QUESTION: I've followed some of the geekfemism conversation, and it seems to mostly focus on what not to do and negative things that people have done, wouldn't it be more effective focussing more on things that do work well and showing why equality is beneficial to all?
[20:21] <pleia2> That's why maco is doing a whole session following mine on Encouragement and how to Do It Right :)
[20:22] <pleia2> So there are few women in F/OSS, you wouldn't believe what a relief it was for me to join Ubuntu Women so I could share experiences and have a network of support from people who understood these challenges.
[20:23] <pleia2> any questions regarding these issues?
[20:25] <pleia2> so I'll be pre-emptive about one question we tend to get
[20:25] <pleia2> Why isn't there an Ubuntu <insert minority>?
[20:25] <pleia2> Because no one has created one yet! The Ubuntu project is very open to other sub-groups like Ubuntu Women if there are people who feel a need to create it. Yes, #ubuntu-men exists, but for some reason nobody ever feels the need to hang out there.
[20:25] <pleia2> And we understand that not everyone shares in these viewpoints, methods or goals, which is really a great thing about F/OSS - you don't have to. And if you're sincerely interested in getting involved we're always open to constructive discussion.
[20:26] <pleia2> One of the things we're working hard to do is have #ubuntu-women be a place where women can come and feel comfortable, as well as others within the project joining us to engage in thoughtful discussion on the issues within the community
[20:27] <pleia2> This is a delicate balance, and one that is a continuing challenge, but we have a really great team of folks from throughout the involvement spectrum of Ubuntu
[20:28] <pleia2> And that's all I've got for the core of this session, so Q&A time!
[20:28] <pleia2> < Gareth> QUESTION: Can offer some advice to men who want to encourage women to be involved in Ubuntu and F/LOSS community but don't want to appear to be patronizing?
[20:28] <pleia2> maco will cover "how do we.." more in her session in 30 minutes, but essentially by treating women with respect and as equals
[20:29] <pleia2> don't make assumptions about her involvent, just as you wouldn't a man, etc
[20:29] <pleia2> < Jesi-Idle> Question: I'm a guy and I support what your doin, I'm not really sure what to say for this session, and I think that goes for most here and is why you're not getting many replies, I've never had a problem when it comes to gender equality and it's something I promote,   but I know that allot of my male friends really aren't that sensitive here, but they often don't realize it,
[20:29] <pleia2> cont: what steps can one take to make sure the evironment doesn't seem so male-dominated, because I garuntee you many guys are completely oblivious
[20:30] <pleia2> speaking up when you see other guys making comments is important
[20:31] <pleia2> a lot of guys sit idly by when they see sexist behavior and assume the women will speak up for themselves - a lot of women don't, they just leave
[20:31] <pleia2> < LaserJock> QUESTION: Do you think Ubuntu Women will ever go away? Will it vanish when its Bug #1 is fixed or will it continue on as a social gathering
[20:32] <pleia2> As an official Ubuntu Project, it will go away
[20:32] <pleia2> some of us might drift off into social channels though, at this point a lot of us are friends :)
[20:32] <pleia2> < astechgeek_> QUESTION: How do new folks getting involved help with avoiding some of the issues that have happened in the past?
[20:33] <pleia2> I believe most of the past issues came up simply because people weren't being mindful that Ubuntu is such a diverse community, being mindful is vital
[20:33] <pleia2> there is an example of the "even some wives" mailing list post linked to the wiki page I posted earlier, the fellow who wrote that meant no harm (we all knew that), he just "didn't think" when he wrote it
[20:34] <pleia2> < gQuigs1> QUESTION: I'm pretty sure I refer to "guys" when I give talks (but I mean it as all inclusive) should I try to cut that out?
[20:34] <pleia2> this is a very good question
[20:34] <pleia2> my mother called my sisters and I "guys" :)
[20:34] <pleia2> but it's cultural, and not always acceptable
[20:35] <pleia2> I tend to go with "folks" or other terms that I'm pretty sure are completely neutral
[20:35] <pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION: in other words - it is up to ALL of us to 'call out' negative behavior, right? Not just the groups that are the target?
[20:35] <pleia2> right!
[20:36] <pleia2> and there are loads of ways to do this, humor helps :)
[20:36] <pleia2> it's unfortunately common for men to join a "boys club" type channel and type the greeting "hello ladies!" as an insult
[20:37] <pleia2> to which I reply with some flowery "wow, it's nice to be noticed for once!" and they end up looking terribly silly
[20:37] <pleia2> < Jesi-Idle> Question: follow up, I do, I meant, if it's mostly a group of guys, the environment in which they meet, or some of the things the group does, while not sexual at all, may be seen as offensive, and the guys there may not even realize that, yeah there are many guys out there who are jerks, but I think allot of it is misunderstanding as well
[20:38] <pleia2> certainly a lot of it is misunderstanding
[20:38] <pleia2> asking people to "tone it down" does wonders, in Ubuntu we have the Code of Conduct which outlines some guidelines that require us to be respectful of each other - respect is huge
[20:42] <pleia2> < czajkowski> QUESTION do you think many time we often go too politically correct so as to not offend, making people feel like they are walking on egg shells, how can we better interact with one another better?
[20:42] <pleia2> great question!
[20:42] <pleia2> it's true, and we don't want people to be walking on eggshells to interact with each other
[20:42] <pleia2> the biggest thing here is we all need to learn to admit we make mistakes
[20:43] <pleia2> I think in almost all the instances discribed on that "Incidents" page it was not the initial thing that happened that triggered the problems, but the response to it from the community
[20:44] <pleia2> so if you offend and didn't mean to, try to apologise and move on, I will :)
[20:44] <pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION: The statistical 'outlier' argument - how can we get the 'white dudes' to see that there is really not a welcoming environment sometimes?
[20:45] <pleia2> it's difficult, one fellow I dated didn't "get it" until he was in situations with me where he saw me being treated differently because of my gender
[20:46] <pleia2> I think by telling our stories, having sessions like this one, and continuing to succeed in spite of them we do a lot to help people see
[20:46] <pleia2> < AlanBell> QUESTION: many blokes using Ubuntu have wives, girlfriends, daughters, mothers, sisters (I have all - except girlfriend) who they have normal social interactions with. Is there a bigger online issue than there is an offline issue? Why?
[20:47] <pleia2> I think it depends on the community, some LoCo teams and LUGs are more welcoming to women, some IRC channels are very unwelcoming
[20:47] <pleia2> and the other way around too
[20:48] <pleia2> I will say that I've never gotten a marriage proposal in person, it tends to be the perceived anonymity of the internet that allows those kinds of jokes
[20:49] <pleia2> < erUSUL> QUESTION: "it was not the initial thing that happened that triggered the problems, but the response to it from the community" so the real problem is not sexism but that the community overreacts to otherwise pretty harmless things put other way has too thin skin ??
[20:49] <pleia2> I mean the community as in the wider F/OSS community
[20:50] <pleia2> I once made a suggestion on a mailing list to use the term "spouses" rather than "wives" in an article - instead of accepting my suggestion I was told I was nit-picking, getting upset over insignificant details, etc
[20:50] <pleia2> if they had just accepted my suggestion, we would have all been happy
[20:51] <pleia2> (and the article would have been more accurate :))
[20:51] <pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION- is the root of MANY problems encountered - the inability to admit that you made a mistake?
[20:52] <pleia2> I believe this is part of it, and a general negative reaction many people have to being "corrected" for something where they don't see a problem
[20:54] <pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION -follow-up so in other words - dont think that you are PERFECT? Because no one is?
[20:54] <pleia2> right, and be open to concerns others have