[07:00] <inetpro> good mornings
[07:03] <theblazehen> Hi inetpro , all
[09:57] <Kilos> :-)  morning all of ya
[09:57] <Kilos> hehe with 3 mins to spare
[10:28] <Kilos> hi MaNI
[10:28] <MaNI> hi
[10:29] <Kilos> have you got your solar panels on the roof yet?
[10:29] <Kilos> hehe
[10:30] <Kilos> cremora inetpro
[10:30] <MaNI> haha, bit of a sore point that, but no.
[10:30] <Kilos> hahaha
[10:30] <MaNI> I'm about one saturday worth of work away from them being up, but just way too busy right now
[10:30] <Kilos> never do today what you can put off till tomorrow
[10:30] <MaNI> hopefully over december
[10:30] <Kilos> good luck
[10:31] <MaNI> assuming there is a day sometime in december where the wind stops blowing
[10:31] <MaNI> probably not safe to hold a panel on the roof in 50 km/h winds
[10:31] <MaNI> haha
[10:31] <Kilos> yip blowing big gales here
[11:05] <MaNI> ahh great, first fire of the year :(
[11:05] <MaNI> going to be a long rough summer
[11:05] <Kilos> we had one here on sunday
[11:06] <Kilos> many hectares of veldt burned, but the big job was stopping it getting into the wheat crops
[19:02] <Kilos> jy weet inetpro , die vlieg is baie slim
[19:03] <Kilos> my ou datum is nog geldig
[19:03] <Kilos> dankie superfly
[19:41] <superfly> Kilos: eh?
[19:42] <Kilos> i still show as joined in 2010
[19:42] <Kilos> not yesterday hehe
[20:20] <Kilos> night all. sleep well


[00:34] <ubuntu-mate> hello
[01:47] <SudoLinux> Hello
[02:05] <nikita> hi there
[18:34] <mate|5202> hello
[18:34] <diogenes_> hello
[18:34] <mate|5202> where can I find the "boot" script in ubuntu mate? trying to make octoprint start automatically
[18:35] <mate|5202> I also have near zero knowledge about ubuntu mate
[18:36] <diogenes_> you can add it to autostart
[18:37] <mate|5202> let me google that...
[18:37] <mate|5202> I am running an arm based single board computer here...
[18:40] <mate|5202> turns out I do not have autostart application installed
[18:41] <diogenes_> weird
[18:42] <mate|5202> yes, it is an OS version like for raspberry pi, only the single board computer is korean :)
[18:42] <mate|5202> found this in init.d
[18:43] <mate|5202> https://thepasteb.in/p/k5hYB2y9VyQSE
[18:43] <mate|5202> Ha, what a great trick with pastebin :)
[18:44] <mate|5202> sudo pluma /etc/init.d/octoprint
[18:45] <diogenes_> gksu is better instead of sudo
[18:45] <diogenes_> in this case
[18:46] <mate|5202> not familiar with this at all...
[18:47] <mate|5202> is there a way to figure out why octoprint is not started?
[18:48] <diogenes_> use sudo when running terminal commands and gksu when opening graphical apps
[18:49] <diogenes_> try to add the original shortcut to /etc/xdg/autostart
[18:49] <mate|5202> what is the original shortcut??
[18:50] <diogenes_> also add it to /home/youruser/https://thepasteb.in/p/k5hYB2y9VyQSE
[18:51] <diogenes_> the shortcut fot octoprint
[18:53] <mate|5202> sudo cp ~/OctoPrint/scripts/octoprint.init /home/myuser/octoprint
[18:54] <mate|5202> original: sudo cp ~/OctoPrint/scripts/octoprint.init /etc/init.d/octoprint
[18:55] <mate|5202> obviously I do not know which shortcut are you talking about...
[18:58] <diogenes_> did you restart the system?
[18:59] <mate|5202> yes, you did make my gerbil run a little bit...
[18:59] <mate|5202> # The init.d script will only run if this variable non-empty.
[18:59] <mate|5202> OCTOPRINT_USER=pi
[19:00] <diogenes_> so did it run?
[19:00] <mate|5202> now, what if octoprint_user does not exsist? the user is for instance "DALEK"?
[19:00] <mate|5202> not so fast...
[19:01] <mate|5202> did not add the shortcut yet and did not reboot, as I am writing this conversation on the same machine used to run octoprint...
[19:02] <mate|5202> just explain
[19:02] <mate|5202> you said: "also add it to /home/youruser/https://thepasteb.in/p/k5hYB2y9VyQSE
[19:02] <mate|5202> "
[19:03] <mate|5202> but this can not work, there must be a file to write to or a file to be created (with possibly a known name) and then this init copied to. Correct?
[19:06] <mate|5202> reeeeeeeeebooooooot
[19:11] <odroid> hello
[19:11] <odroid> the octoprint guy...
[19:11] <odroid> did not work...
[19:12] <diogenes_> odroid, run: cat /etc/xdg/autostart | nc termbin.com 9999
[19:12] <diogenes_> tell me if you see any link
[19:13] <odroid> cat: /etc/xdg/autostart: Is a directory
[19:13] <odroid> no links...
[19:13] <diogenes_> oh sorry
[19:13] <diogenes_> run: ls /etc/xdg/autostart | nc termbin.com 9999
[19:13] <odroid> ls /etc/xdg/autostart | nc termbin.com 9999
[19:14] <diogenes_> in terminal
[19:14] <odroid> http://termbin.com/d1wm
[19:14] <odroid> so yes, there is a link. what is this and may I click it? :D
[19:14] <diogenes_> now
[19:15] <diogenes_> run: ls /usr/share/applications | nc termbin.com 9999
[19:15] <diogenes_> share the link
[19:16] <odroid> I already did... it is a few lines above, here is the pastebin: https://pastebin.com/pEB7SC8y
[19:16] <odroid> no, sorry, will do it now
[19:17] <odroid> http://termbin.com/i4r3
[19:18] <odroid> my god had no idea this was possible in ubuntu
[19:19] <diogenes_> ok what is the command that you use to start your octopusthing in normal way?
[19:20] <odroid> ~/OctoPrint/venv/bin/octoprint
[19:20] <odroid> in command line
[19:20] <odroid> MATE terminal, sorry
[19:21] <diogenes_> run: cat ~/OctoPrint/venv/bin/octoprin | nc termbin.com 9999
[19:21] <diogenes_> sorry add a "t"
[19:22] <diogenes_> cat ~/OctoPrint/venv/bin/octoprint | nc termbin.com 9999
[19:23] <odroid> cat: /home/odroid/OctoPrint/venv/bin/octoprin: No such file or directory
[19:23] <odroid> cat: /home/odroid/OctoPrint/venv/bin/octoprin: No such file or directory:)
[19:23] <diogenes_> ~/OctoPrint/venv/bin/octoprint <[19:24] <odroid> just a second, my fault...
[19:25] <odroid> http://termbin.com/gmwi
[19:26] <diogenes_> so you just run in terminal ~/OctoPrint/venv/bin/octoprint and it works right?
[19:26] <odroid> yes, correct
[19:27] <diogenes_> ok now
[19:27] <odroid> it starts the server and I can get to it via browser
[19:27] <diogenes_> run: touch OctopusPrint.desktop
[19:27] <odroid> 66% of stuff does not work yet, so no webcam, no slicer, but these will be another topic
[19:28] <odroid> currently the server is running. Leave it or shut it down?
[19:28] <diogenes_> leave it
[19:29] <odroid> nothing happened?
[19:29] <diogenes_> I know, just tell me done
[19:29] <diogenes_> now
[19:29] <diogenes_> run: pluma OctopusPrint.desktop
[19:30] <odroid> done
[19:30] <diogenes_> did it open a document?
[19:30] <odroid> yes, blank document titeld OctopusPrint.desktop
[19:30] <diogenes_> good
[19:31] <diogenes_> now open another terminal
[19:31] <odroid> done
[19:31] <diogenes_> run: ls /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/ | nc termbin.com 9999
[19:33] <odroid> http://termbin.com/o9jf
[19:36] <diogenes_> do you still have that document opened?
[19:36] <odroid> yes
[19:36] <diogenes_> open this link and copy its content to that document: http://termbin.com/so9u
[19:37] <odroid> pasted
[19:37] <diogenes_> save the document and close it
[19:38] <odroid> done
[19:38] <diogenes_> now in the same terminal that you have just opened the document run: chmod +x OctopusPrint.desktop
[19:39] <odroid> done
[19:40] <diogenes_> now run: cp OctopusPrint.desktop $HOME/.local/share/applications
[19:41] <odroid> done
[19:41] <diogenes_> now go to the mate menu > internet and see if you find the new shortcut named OctopusPrint
[19:41] <odroid> confirmed
[19:42] <diogenes_> now let's test it, shutdown your octopus server and try to open it via the new shortcut
[19:43] <odroid> let me verify if the server really is stopped
[19:43] <diogenes_> ok
[19:44] <odroid> it sensed the server is starting, give it a minute or so... looks good so far
[19:44] <odroid> started.
[19:44] <diogenes_> so it works with the shortcut right?
[19:44] <odroid> correct
[19:45] <diogenes_> ok now
[19:45] <diogenes_> run: sudo cp $HOME/.local/share/applications/OctopusPrint.desktop /etc/xdg/autostart
[19:46] <odroid> done
[19:47] <diogenes_> run: cp $HOME/.local/share/applications/OctopusPrint.desktop $HOME/.config/autostart
[19:48] <odroid> done
[19:48] <diogenes_> run: ls /etc/xdg/autostart | nc termbin.com 9999
[19:49] <odroid> http://termbin.com/nd67r
[19:49] <diogenes_> run: ls $HOME/.config/autostart | nc termbin.com 9999
[19:50] <odroid> http://termbin.com/gqt7
[19:51] <diogenes_> go ahead reboot
[19:51] <odroid> let me just copy and save this goodies
[19:52] <diogenes_> you gonna have everything in your terminal history anyways, but save it, it's useful
[19:52] <diogenes_> if you run in the terminal: history
[19:52] <diogenes_> it will show you everything
[19:52] <odroid> multiple terminal windows??
[19:53] <odroid> reebooot
[19:53] <diogenes_> ok
[19:56] <odroid_back> hello
[19:56] <v3k> +i
[19:56] <odroid_back> I am pleased to say it works!
[19:56] <diogenes_> odroid_back, ok goot
[19:56] <diogenes_> good*
[19:56] <odroid_back> excellent
[19:56] <diogenes_> fantastic
[19:56] <odroid_back> would you like a reward?
[19:57] <diogenes_> don't worry, linux is non-profit
[19:57] <odroid_back> user support isn't
[19:57] <diogenes_> it's meant to be free and the support at least from my side will always be like this
[19:58] <v3k> help
[19:58] <odroid_back> I bow to you sir.
[19:58] <v3k> hi ?
[19:59] <diogenes_> odroid_back, once you've lit your torch up, share the light with others who need it!
[19:59] <diogenes_> good luck
[20:00] <odroid_back> thank you and much respect from my side
[20:00] <diogenes_> you're welcome
[21:57] <ryan_> just installed ubuntu mate 17.04 on emachine t5212 how to make dvd's play?
[22:06] <supMATE> I have had to to reinstall Ubuntu MATE 4 times due to really odd bugs. It wouldn't boot at one point, wifi would not work one time only wired(checked, and have all drivers), desktop became corrupted, and then my cursor wouldn't work even after restarting. So far I haven't had to reinstall all day since this morning, but I do not wan't to have to re
[22:06] <supMATE> install again. Anyone know what's going on?
[22:14] <supMATE> I should probably put this on AskUbuntu instead of here because I do not think anyone here knows what's going on
[22:16]  * supMATE
[22:27] <ladys574> ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ DID YOU GUYS KNOW TODAY WAS NIGGERS DAY??  SAY HI TO YOUR FAVORITY NIGGER IN #FREENODE!! quicktalkeh676te.onionfzddt: aptanet rymate1234 cyphermox karjala el ali1234 DerRaiden_ s0ph0s pizzaops sixwheeledbeast isaagar mich1x lord4163 mandje_ ryan_ harald_bl_g AndrzejL M1K4 to ubergoose johnc4510 egos wxl karjala_ m4t BlackPanx Hobbyboy khw Tal
[22:31] <ryan_> only installed once and updated after all working but playing dvd's


[21:27] -queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: cloud-initramfs-tools (xenial-proposed/main) [0.27ubuntu1.3 => 0.27ubuntu1.4] (edubuntu, ubuntu-server)
[21:28] -queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: cloud-initramfs-tools (yakkety-proposed/main) [0.30ubuntu1.1 => 0.30ubuntu1.2] (edubuntu, ubuntu-server)


[04:55] <MarkMaglana> Hi. Sharing my early attempts at using the test harness for feedback. I <3 how it simplifies my unit test drastically! https://github.com/relaxdiego/charm-k8s-grafana/commit/38fa63ad8918d0a178986ccc2032d89994029392
[04:55] <MarkMaglana> (Ignore the FrameworkAdapter for now. I'm seeing the light and may soon have no need for it)
[05:41] <MarkMaglana> Question: What is the recommended way to get the model name? I've been using `os.environ["JUJU_MODEL_NAME"]` in my code but I suspect that's not the smartest way.
[06:40] <jam> morning all
[06:41] <jam> MarkMaglana, good to hear you're finding Harness good to use.
[06:41] <jam> MarkMaglana, I don't think we currently expose JUJU_MODEL_NAME from the framework. something like self.model.name sounds like the place to put it
[06:41] <jam> can you file a github issue?
[06:42] <jam> MarkMaglana, along with your use case as to what you need the model name for
[06:42] <jam> (generally charms shouldn't care, but I think for K8s you need it to configure pod names)
[07:08] <MarkMaglana> @jam thanks for the reply! yes you got it right, it's for getting the underlying k8s pod's status so i can report its liveness/readiness back to Juju via OF.
[07:10] <MarkMaglana> i'll go ahead and file that github issue
[07:21] <MarkMaglana> 13:41:26 <jam> MarkMaglana, good to hear you're finding Harness good to use. <--- As a friend used to say "the best code is the one I don't have to write!" and I adhere to that where feasible. :-)
[08:04] <jam> morning Chipaca
[08:04]  * Chipaca is being phone support rn
[08:07] <Chipaca> now yes
[08:07] <Chipaca> jam: morning! :-)
[08:11] <jam> Chipaca, how's the new/old laptop treating you? did they fix the issue?
[08:11] <Chipaca> jam: I haven't been able to get the hard drive back into it yet, they tightened the screws past what my screwdriver could do (have ordered a new one)
[08:12] <Chipaca> my T5 head died to bring me this information
[08:12] <jam> Chipaca, wow, a whole new laptop just for a couple screws :)
[08:12] <jam> (ah the joy of english ambiguity)
[08:12] <Chipaca> :)
[08:12] <Chipaca> i probably could've phrased it better (but why would i)
[08:13] <jam> you were perfectly understandable, I just enjoy puns
[08:13] <Chipaca> also, that laptop is coming up for its 3rd anniversary, so shold i really call it 'new'
[08:15] <jam> my laptop is now 'bowed' so I'll need to get something new before the next sprint. Whenever we actually meet in person again :)
[08:17] <jam> its also fairly old, so I've been wanting to update it anyway
[08:18] <mup_> Issue operator#274 opened: Currently no way to get the model name <Created by relaxdiego> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/274>
[08:18] <mup_> PR operator#252 closed: ops/testing.py: document Harness in Google style <Created by jameinel> <Merged by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/252>
[08:23] <Chipaca> jam: bowed?
[08:24] <Chipaca> makes me think the battery's bulging, but that's probably the wrong meaning
[08:25] <jam> Chipaca, nope, that's exactly what I mean
[08:25] <Chipaca> youch
[08:25] <Chipaca> you removed the battery, yes?
[08:25] <jam> Chipaca, I drained the battery so it isn't powered, but it is a Mac and I don't have the little torx. I need to take it to the shop
[08:26] <Chipaca> ah. little torxes and the little prying pluck needed, right?
[08:26] <Chipaca> jam: my old canonical-bought mac laptop developed that, and the shop here swapped the battery for a new one for 50£ IIRC (pre-corona obvs)
[08:27] <Chipaca> that first my is about possession, not ownership fwiw
[08:27] <jam> yeah, it only really started bowing about 2 weeks ago, and I only use it when traveling so it hasn't been high priority
[08:28] <Chipaca> jam: i'd be freaking out about it catching fire, but that's probably because everything around me is flammable
[08:28] <Chipaca> also inflammable
[08:29] <jam> Chipaca, I've been looking at some of the network-get support. It is straightforward to let people do 'pre-canned' responses, but I'd like to actually design something that is better for testing your stuff
[08:29] <Chipaca> it was the only time i've noticed these houses are basically chimneys filled with kindling
[08:29] <jam> should I start with  the former as I design the latter? or skip it because we don't really want people to have to know the details
[08:30] <jam> and/or we should probably talk through what we think are ideals for how people would interact with networking and charm testing.
[08:30] <Chipaca> jam: the latter sounds more powerful, but the devil is in the details (and schedules)
[08:30] <jam> Chipaca, indeed.
[08:31] <Chipaca> jam: want to timebox some design and see where we get?
[08:31] <jam> sounds reasonable
[08:31] <facubatista> Muy buenos días a todos!
[08:31] <Chipaca> whaaat
[08:31] <Chipaca> facubatista: cucha nene
[08:32] <jam> morning facubatista
[08:32] <facubatista> hola Chipaca, jam :)
[08:33] <Chipaca> jam: on an unrelated note, did you see my bug+patch to sphinx?
[08:34] <jam> Chipaca, link?
[08:34] <jam> btw, https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/272 needs your eyeballs
[08:34] <mup_> PR #272: ops/charm.py: Update the Docstrings to Google style <Created by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/272>
[08:34] <Chipaca> jam: https://github.com/sphinx-doc/sphinx/pull/7655
[08:34] <mup_> PR sphinx-doc/sphinx#7655: Make sphinx.util.typing.stringify render optional unions better <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/sphinx-doc/sphinx/pull/7655>
[08:36] <jam> Chipaca, ah, so that was doing Optional if you had exactly 1 type and None as the other option?
[08:36] <Chipaca> jam: it was doing Optional[foo], but not Optional[Union[foo, bar]]
[08:37] <Chipaca> ie it was doing Union[foo, None] but not Union[foo, bar, None]
[08:37] <jam> Chipaca, presumably if you did Union[foo, None] it would also translate that to Optional[foo] as well ?
[08:37] <Chipaca> yep
[08:39] <Chipaca> jam: btw, compare https://operator-framework.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#ops.testing.Harness and https://operator-framework.readthedocs.io/en/docs-tri/#ops.testing.Harness
[08:39] <facubatista> Chipaca, #!/bin/bash -> #!/bin/sh ... I always don't know if (why) it's better to use `sh` there
[08:39] <jam> Chipaca, i'm a bit surprised to see all Unions end up with Optional
[08:39] <jam> but if that is all they track, then I guess
[08:39] <Chipaca> facubatista: smaller and faster
[08:40] <Chipaca> jam: yeah i was surprised as well (but the current Optional becomes Union isn't very good either)
[08:40] <jam> 'dash' is the current /bin/sh which is Posix compliant, but not Bash compliant
[08:40] <facubatista> Chipaca, and for anything not "real command line usage", the same than bash?
[08:40] <facubatista> oh:
[08:40] <facubatista> $ ll /bin/sh
[08:40] <facubatista> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 ago 11  2018 /bin/sh -> dash
[08:41] <facubatista> nice
[08:41] <Chipaca> facubatista: unless you need bash features in your script, then yes
[08:41] <jam> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dash claims it is 4x faster than bash and smaller footprint
[08:41] <Chipaca> some things in bash are nice / very convenient
[08:41] <jam> it doesn't have support for things like arithmetic in shell IIRC
[08:41] <jam> I remember when Ubuntu switched and it broke a lot of scripts that assumed /bin/sh was bash
[08:41] <Chipaca> arithmetic yes, that's posix afaik
[08:42] <Chipaca> $ sh -c 'echo $((1+1))'
[08:42] <Chipaca> 2
[08:42] <Chipaca> no $RANDOM though
[08:43] <facubatista> $ python3 -c "print(1+1)"
[08:43] <facubatista> 2
[08:43] <facubatista> :p
[08:43] <Chipaca> no brace expansion
[08:43] <Chipaca> no a..b expansion
[08:43] <facubatista> Chipaca, for the docstring, what about "Must override in each command with its respectively core working code."?
[08:43] <Chipaca> facubatista: what is 'core working code'?
[08:44] <facubatista> Chipaca, *the code* of the command that makes the command do what the command does
[08:45] <facubatista> the rest is just boilerplate to make that code run
[08:45] <jam> apt install devtools comes with 'checkbashisms'
[08:45] <jam> though it is written in perl...
[08:46] <Chipaca> jam: shellcheck will look at the #! line and tell you about them in excruciating detail
[08:47] <jam> https://mywiki.wooledge.org/Bashism
[08:47] <Chipaca> facubatista: how about something more like "this is called to have the command do its work, and should be overridden by the command implementation" or something?
[08:48] <jam> keyword 'function', for loops, extended globs
[08:48] <facubatista> Chipaca, I never know the "tone" of the docstrings when "imperative" doesn't fit
[08:49] <Chipaca> jam: command substitutions also
[08:50] <jam> Chipaca, https://operator-framework.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#ops.testing.Harness doesn't seem to have a link for the types
[08:50] <Chipaca> facubatista: threading.Thread's run method says "Method representing the thread’s activity.\n\nYou may override this method in a subclass. [...]"
[08:50] <jam> with: https://operator-framework.readthedocs.io/en/docs-tri/#ops.testing.Harness I can click to jump to CharmBase
[08:51] <Chipaca> jam: yep, and latest has the types in the signature which gets messy
[08:51] <jam> (and I personally prefer Parameters as a section that doesn't cause the params to indent as far)
[08:51] <facubatista> Chipaca, improving also the docstrings of that whole class
[08:51] <Chipaca> jam: is there anything in docs-tri that's off?
[08:52] <Chipaca> or, is there anything in latest that's better than the one in docs-tri
[08:52] <Chipaca> turns out it was easy to get rtd to use latest sphinx :-)
[08:52] <jam> Chipaca, I do find latest harder to read for advanced type signatures, I find it kind of snazzy for simple ones, eg: https://operator-framework.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#ops.testing.Harness.set_leader
[08:53] <jam> latest looks 'more like the source' but definitely Harness.__init__ gets ugly
[08:53] <Chipaca> yeah, on both points
[08:54] <Chipaca> i can probably put the types back in the signature, and they might be a bit better than latest
[08:55]  * Chipaca tries
[08:57] <jam> Chipaca, I'm used to typed languages, so seeing types in my signatures is expected and comforting. I don't know that others feel that way :)
[08:58] <jam> I think there are pros and cons of either path. I really like being able to go to the link of "what is this type" so you can figure out how you might want to interact with it.
[08:59] <Chipaca> jam: setting the type hints back in the signature does not look any better than on 'latest' with the newer sphinx, meaning add_leader looks good but e.g. update_config already looks scary
[08:59] <jam> does key_values: dict = None give a better result?
[09:00] <jam> and List[str] vs Iterable[str]
[09:00] <Chipaca> jam: also it's not a link in the signature :-/
[09:00]  * Chipaca checks
[09:00] <jam> The goal was to not say "this has to exactly be a list object" but Iterable feels overly abstractd
[09:01] <jam> saying list felt bad when I set it to the empty tuple as the default value :)
[09:01] <jam> (cause if you set it to [] then linters complain that you're setting a default to a mutable value)
[09:02] <facubatista> right, don't use [] as default, ever
[09:02] <Chipaca> saying list and setting it to default to a tuple would also cheese off mypy
[09:02] <facubatista> well, 99.999% ever :p
[09:02]  * Chipaca was already thinking of counter-arguments to "ever"
[09:03] <facubatista> jam, "iterable" is a totally firm thing in Python, sounds good
[09:03] <Chipaca> jam: no it doesn't look particularly better with List/Dict instead of Iterable/Mapping
[09:03] <jam> facubatista, yeah, I do remember doing it in the past, and using it to populate a dict or something, and then suddenly adding a value here was adding it there too
[09:03] <Chipaca> still wraps
[09:03] <facubatista> Chipaca, I used {} once in real code :D
[09:03] <Chipaca> shocking
[09:03] <facubatista> but not as a "default parameter", just a "dict I wanted to have inside the function definition between calls for caching"
[09:04] <Chipaca> so, ok, i'll push the change from docs-tri to a pr once again :)
[09:06] <mup_> PR operator#275 opened: explicitly ask for a newer sphinx on rtd <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/275>
[09:08] <jam> Chipaca, you asked for it to be merged into docs-tri
[09:08] <jam> so it doesn't show any diff and says already merged
[09:08] <Chipaca> hah
[09:08] <mup_> PR operator#275 closed: explicitly ask for a newer sphinx on rtd <Created by chipaca> <Merged by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/275>
[09:08]  * Chipaca <~ dumb banana
[09:09] <jam> Chipaca, you can change the target branch after proposing it
[09:10] <facubatista> Chipaca, just pushed the charmcraft branch
[09:10] <facubatista> let's see how travis goes
[09:11] <Chipaca> jam: docs-tri on rtd now has the charm changes
[09:12] <Chipaca> if you're wanting to look at that
[09:12] <Chipaca> need to fix that pr now :)
[09:14] <mup_> PR operator#276 opened: explicitly ask for a newer sphinx on rtd <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/276>
[09:18] <Chipaca> my new T5 arrived! brb
[09:26] <facubatista> wee, "a man and a screwdriver", the movie
[09:28] <jam> Chipaca, that seems very fast
[09:33] <Chipaca> jam: i'm spoiled, geographically
[09:40] <facubatista> Chipaca, more important: were you able to open the laptop?
[09:46] <Chipaca> facubatista: yes! uefi's all messed up and my bios has more enterprisey features than when it went off but everything seems ok
[09:46] <facubatista> good
[09:50] <facubatista> jam, re #269 ... I understand why calling other_unit.is_leader() is a bad thing, and I think it's better to raise an exception than answering False or None... but if "you should not call is_leader on a different unit", maybe we shouldn't expose it?
[09:50] <mup_> Issue #269: Warn that model.unit.is_leader() can raise an exception <Created by timClicks> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/269>
[09:51] <jam> facubatista, that was my point as well, trying to not have the method vs having it but being a runtime error
[09:51] <jam> but it means having multiple Unit types one representing *you* and one representing all the other units
[09:51] <facubatista> otoh, it looks weird if Unit (as the object) exposes the method *sometimes*
[09:52] <facubatista> jam, thinking out loud, what if we deprecate Unit.is_leader, and we add something `self.is_unit_leader()`?
[09:54] <jam> I don't think this is going to be the only thing that you can do on yourself that you couldn't do on another.
[09:54] <jam> so I'm not opposed to having a different type for the Unit representing you
[09:58] <facubatista> OTOH, I feel better to do `wrong_unit.is_leader()` and getting SomeError("You're calling is_leader on a different Unit that yours, which doesn't make sense") than a silly AttributeError
[10:01] <facubatista> So, current solution is the best (TM)
[10:01] <facubatista> (maybe we could improve the exception message)
[10:02] <facubatista> jam, this is all yours: https://github.com/canonical/charmcraft/pull/1
[10:02] <mup_> PR charmcraft#1: Draft to show several characteristics <Created by facundobatista> <https://github.com/canonical/charmcraft/pull/1>
[10:02] <jam> facubatista, yeah, I think it is a fair trade for where we are at. AttributeError hints at a programmer error as well to me (and your editor won't try to fill it in for you)
[10:04] <facubatista> jam, but AttributeError is obscure, when you have that method in "other" units... like, using it, getting the error, reading it and thinking "mmm... the Unit has not is_leader method???", going to the code, *seeing it*, seeing other code that uses it just fine, etc
[10:05] <facubatista> getting SomeError(VERY_GOOD_EXPLANATION) would totally help
[10:05] <jam> yeah, that is what we've been using RuntimeError for, figuring out language that people understand for that is probably the point
[10:07] <facubatista> jam, I'd improve the message... "cannot determine leadership status for remote applications" looks like "the process wasn't able to do that at that time"
[10:08] <jam> invalid request: leadership status of remote units is not available
[10:08] <jam> invalid request: you can't do that dave
[10:08] <jam> is_leader is only valid for yourself
[10:09] <facubatista> "is not available" <-- again, looks like messaging failed or network glitch
[10:09] <facubatista> I'd totally go with "you can't do that dave"
[10:11] <facubatista> and we can have a counter, if you call that more than three times, the exception message turns into Daisy Bell lyrics
[10:12] <jam> leadership status of remote units is not visible to other applications
[10:12] <jam> leadership status is only visible for your own application
[10:14] <__chip__> eeee
[10:15] <__chip__> eeeₑₑₑ
[10:15] <__chip__> ₔₔₔəəə
[10:16] <__chip__> convincing my laptop that I _didn't_ have windows, nor did i want to 'repair' it for the lack, was harder than i expected
[10:17] <__chip__> now i need to sync my work back and I'll be set :-D
[10:18] <Chipaca> anyway, time for a break
[10:18] <Chipaca> __chip__: can i get you a coffee?
[10:18] <__chip__> Chipaca: please
[10:18] <jam> Chipaca, I'll go make one now, come by anytime to pick it up
[10:19] <__chip__> jam: 👍
[10:23] <facubatista> Chipaca, jam, is the "charm docs daily" currently a thing?
[10:24] <jam> facubatista, it has not been happening but we've been stopping by to check each day
[10:24] <facubatista> jam, "polling"
[10:24] <__chip__> facubatista: "it's complicated"
[10:25]  * facubatista is complicated
[10:33] <MarkMaglana> jam and and __chip__ aren't really in the same house/neighborhood are they?
[10:33] <jam> MarkMaglana, __chip__ is Chipaca's other machine
[10:33] <jam> and no, we're continents apart
[10:34] <jam> hence why I can offer to make as many coffees as I want
[10:34] <jam> :)
[10:34] <MarkMaglana> lol OK. then can I have a cup as well, pretty please?
[10:35] <__chip__> jam: just one
[10:35] <__chip__> continent i mean
[10:35] <jam> MarkMaglana, happy to
[10:36] <jam> I'm going to have a hard time sleeping with all these extra coffees lying around
[10:36] <jam> Can't let them go to waste
[10:38] <MarkMaglana> might as well add some cold brew in that mix topped by whole milk foam and some simple syrup.
[10:38] <__chip__> dalgona also
[10:39] <jam> I have not had dalgona before
[10:39] <jam> seems interesting
[10:40] <__chip__> what's up with the failures in travis wrt the test main charm?
[10:41] <__chip__> jam: we'd have it frequently in high school, before it was called that
[10:41] <__chip__> we just called it 'batido'
[10:44] <facubatista> MarkMaglana, each team member is from a different continent :p
[10:44] <jam> facubatista, clearly the next hire should be NZ/Australia so we can maximize our worldwide coverage
[10:45] <facubatista> Antarctica FTW
[10:45] <MarkMaglana> facubatista i'm in one of those southeast asian archipelagoes.
[10:45] <MarkMaglana> archipelagos? archipelagoes? anyway, group of islands.
[10:48] <facubatista> :)
[10:50] <jam> facubatista, but if Antarctica then couldn't they be in *any* TZ ?
[11:00] <jam> facubatista, Chipaca coming along to meet with gnuoy ?
[11:01] <facubatista> yes
[11:15] <MarkMaglana> jam: When you get the chance, can you shed some light on this thing I'm getting blocked at? I was attempting to remove one of the Grafana charm's delegators as well as the FrameworkAdapter and came across an issue. See commit https://github.com/relaxdiego/charm-k8s-grafana/commit/b689a77cb2714075b2c88e5fe6442e26f1ca033e
[11:23] <facubatista> jam, Chipaca, for later: did we consider that saving state in the controller may be expensive? e.g. if the controller is in another DC/cloud
[11:42] <mup_> Issue operator#277 opened: Helper library of common operations <Created by stub42> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/277>
[12:01] <__chip__> jam, facubatista: i'm going to be 5 minutes
[12:01] <facubatista> __chip__, ack, will heat water for the mate, then
[12:46] <jam> Chipaca, __chip__ still need your eyeballs on https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/272
[12:46] <mup_> PR #272: ops/charm.py: Update the Docstrings to Google style <Created by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/272>
[12:50] <mup_> Issue operator#278 opened: Unit.status not unit tested <Created by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/issues/278>
[12:55] <facubatista> jam, I'm failing to relate my blog to apache :/ ... I see that one of the items apache2 provides is:
[12:55] <facubatista>   apache-website:
[12:55] <facubatista>     interface: apache-website
[12:55] <facubatista>     scope: container
[12:55] <facubatista> then, my blog requires:
[12:55] <facubatista>   apache:
[12:55] <facubatista>     interface: apache-website
[12:55] <facubatista>     scope: container
[12:56] <facubatista> but then I get
[12:56] <facubatista> $ juju add-relation bdv:apache apache2:apache-website
[12:56] <facubatista> ERROR no relations found
[12:56] <jam> facubatista, do you have "subordinate: true" in your metadata.yaml ?
[12:56] <facubatista> maybe I needed to do something different when deploying?
[12:56] <facubatista> oh
[12:57] <jam> (I hadn't told you about it because I had forgotten it, but as I'm writing docs I came across it again)
[12:57] <facubatista> jam, no problem that you didn't tell me, I'm a little frustrated about not finding this myself in the docs
[12:59] <facubatista> ok, upgrade no longer works because I changed the application's subordinacy, let's remove and redeploy
[13:02] <facubatista> ah, and then the `juju deploy` sits there in 'waiting' until I relate it to the other app
[13:03] <facubatista> it could totally say that in the message
[13:05] <__chip__> jam: 272 gtg
[13:09] <jam> \o/
[13:10] <mup__> PR operator#272 closed: ops/charm.py: Update the Docstrings to Google style <Created by jameinel> <Merged by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/272>
[13:28] <jam> facubatista, Chipaca does typing have a type like Optional but meaning "you *can* set this, but you really shouldn't"? :)
[13:29] <facubatista> jam, I've been checking its docs, after you used it... it looks is an explicit way that you can use that, or the default... IOW:
[13:29] <facubatista> if you do    def foobar(foo: Optional(int) = None):
[13:29] <facubatista> foo is optional, yes, as it has a default
[13:30] <facubatista> but the Optional would mean that you can actually pass an int, and you can even pass None!
[13:30] <facubatista> without the optional, at typing level, you could pass an int or nothing
[13:30] <facubatista> that is what I understood from reading a little the docs, never really tried it
[13:31] <jam> facubatista, standup?
[13:32] <mup_> PR operator#279 opened: ops/model.py: Document public methods and types <Created by jameinel> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/279>
[14:14] <jam> Chipaca, pip3 install --upgrade --user flake8 made it fail for me, but because there is a new pycodestyle which "has no attribute 'break_around_binary_operator'"
[14:15] <jam> pip3 freeze our deps :)
[14:18] <jam> ugh, it seems flake8 had a long standing pycodestyle <2.4.0 but tip of flake8 says 2.6.0 but doesn't actually work with it?
[14:22] <jam> so test suite passes if I do: pip3 install --upgrade --user flake8==3.7.* autopep8 pycodestyle==2.5.* mccabe pyflakes==2.1.*
[14:22] <jam> it fails to run with flake8==3.8.* which needs pycodestyle 2.6.0 but doesn't actually work with it AFAICT
[14:23] <jam> (in neither case does it cause E402 errors, which is what we see on Travis)
[14:39] <__chip__> newsflash: ops doesn't work with python 2
[14:40]  * __chip__ glares at his new venv
[14:42] <__chip__> jam: was the problem with the doc of RelationData that things like :class:Application weren't getting rendered correctly?
[15:28] <__chip__> jam: what category in the discourse shold the readme point to?
[15:28] <__chip__> /c/charming?
[15:28] <__chip__> i'm also going to point at /c/docs/operator-framework
[15:28] <jam> __chip__, the issue is that RelationData's docstring was completely absent
[15:28] <jam> I was trying to figure out if :class:Application worked or if you need :class:`ApplicationData`
[15:29] <__chip__> jam: i'm not seeing that, fwiw, with either version of sphinx here
[15:29] <jam> but it didn't render anything or complain
[15:29] <__chip__> jam: without the `s it doesn't render it as a link (so it outputs the string verbatim)
[15:29] <__chip__> including the :class:
[15:29] <__chip__> jam: but again, that's here where it is rendering :)
[15:30] <__chip__> strange that there it isn't
[15:30] <__chip__> i built a new env to see if i had anything left over that would be doing it, and no
[15:30] <__chip__> and i tried with both sphines in a new env each time, also no
[15:30] <jam> __chip__, https://imgur.com/U4WQcvp
[15:30] <__chip__> no == it did render, i mean
[15:31] <__chip__> jam: that looks like you're not picking up the :members:
[15:31] <__chip__> jam: ie the defaults from docs/conf.py
[15:33] <jam> __chip__, so it is because I was looking at context.html which was renamed to index.html, but index.html isn't getting the right theme (from what I can tell), so I thought it was the wrong dok
[15:33] <jam> doc
[15:34] <jam> __chip__, wiping out the dir and recreating it revealed the wrong html file
[15:34] <__chip__> jam: the default theme will be different in the local build, it'll be a very spartan thing now rather than the green friendly one
[15:34] <jam> right, that's what I'm seeing, but at least I'm seeing the fields I added :)
[15:34] <__chip__> I could explicitly say 'use the tbd theme' but that's an extra requirement
[15:34] <__chip__> rtd*
[15:35] <__chip__> the rtd theme is bigger than sphinx :-D
[15:36] <__chip__> jam: did you see my question about the discourse?
[15:37] <__chip__> (while i have you here :)
[15:38] <jam> __chip__, So your request for ``{name: stuff}`` means that links don't work. eg: {relation_name: [ :class:`Relation` ]}
[15:38] <jam> for discourse...
[15:38] <__chip__> jam: ah. ufa.
[15:38] <jam> I think timclicks wants us to use https://discourse.juju.is/c/charming
[15:39] <jam> __chip__, ufa ?
[15:39] <__chip__> jam: "rats"
[15:40] <__chip__> as an interjection i mean
[15:40] <jam> __chip__, I'm happy for whatever rendering we like for it. I don't have to have links, but I do kind of like the cross reference
[15:40] <__chip__> me too
[15:40] <__chip__> indeed i like it a little more than i want code to look like code, in small snippets at least
[15:41] <jam> It seems to help the "what is this thing, oh that's what it is, what can I do with it" in a nice way
[15:41]  * __chip__ nods
[15:41] <jam> I can say "map of foo => :class:`Bar`" if you don't want it to look so much like code
[15:42] <jam> It is a pattern I use a lot because we have a lot of maps in our structs
[15:42] <jam> classes even
[15:42] <__chip__> maybe working into a sentence is better
[15:43] <__chip__> as in "a map of foo to :class:`Bar`" or sth
[15:43] <__chip__> dunno
[15:44] <__chip__> jam: i can confirm that setting html_theme to 'sphinx_rtd_theme' renders things almost exactly like on rtd
[15:45] <jam> __chip__, I'll try out the sentence structure.
[15:45] <jam> I think the big thing was realizing that index was, indeed, the correct rendering, and not a mistake
[15:45] <jam> I can live with it
[15:46] <__chip__> ok
[15:46] <__chip__> i can add it to docs/requirements and make it explicit, should help us when we start tweaking the theme
[15:48] <__chip__> pushed that
[15:49] <__chip__> facubatista: dev-requirements.txt, or requirements-dev.txt? i know we had this discussion before but don't remember the outcome
[15:49] <facubatista> __chip__, I prefer requirements-dev.txt, as you locate it more easily when listing the directory
[15:49] <jam> __chip__, do you know why https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/276/files looks like it is r
[15:49] <mup_> PR #276: explicitly ask for a newer sphinx on rtd <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/276>
[15:49] <jam> bringing in my charm.py changes?
[15:50] <facubatista> __chip__, btw, are you working on that? I am
[15:50] <__chip__> jam: i don't, i probably need to rebase or something
[15:50] <__chip__> jam: i'll clean it up before my eod
[15:50] <jam> __chip__, I also prefer requirements-dev because of sorting
[15:50] <__chip__> facubatista: i am not, but i'm updating the README that assumes it's done :-D
[15:51] <__chip__> jam: facubatista: fffantastic
[15:51] <facubatista> __chip__, ack
[15:56] <__chip__> jam: it seems happier now (all i did was rebase to master)
[15:56] <mup_> PR operator#280 opened: Included the dependencies in requirements files, updated README and .travis <Created by facundobatista> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/280>
[15:56] <facubatista> __chip__, ^
[15:56] <jam> __chip__, my guess is that the land-with-squashing is causing one of your patches to look like an additional change
[15:56] <__chip__> facubatista: wouldn't it be enough to say ==5.3.*?
[15:57] <facubatista> __chip__, I don't know, are you sure they use 100% semver?
[15:59] <__chip__> facubatista: I am 3.75% sure about absolutely everything
[15:59] <__chip__> but it adds up in weird ways
[16:00] <facubatista> __chip__, +/- ?
[16:00] <__chip__> 5
[16:00] <facubatista> :)
[16:23] <karimsye> did you guys read this - https://discourse.juju.is/t/experimental-new-feature-k8s-charms-as-operators/2849
[16:24] <karimsye> does it support/conflict with anything you guys have planned?
[16:29] <karimsye> I am guessing I can still use the operator framework to do things like read models,units,applications states and their config
[16:31] <facubatista> karimsye, thanks, will read
[16:31] <__chip__> karimsye: it neither supports nor conflicts with what we have planned so far, and we don't currently have concrete plans to really support that feature
[16:31] <karimsye> facubatista: thanks
[16:32] <__chip__> karimsye: but we do have a blanket 'make things better' for juju on k8s, which might include this (or other work) as juju changes
[16:49] <__chip__> facubatista: i think i saw you say something about having a signature like foo(n: Optional[int] = None)
[16:51] <__chip__> facubatista: if i understood you correctly, you were further saying that   foo(n: int = None)  was OK as well?
[16:51] <facubatista> __chip__, today, 10:29.ar
[16:52] <__chip__> facubatista: yeah, i'm asking if that second part was what you meant to say
[16:52] <facubatista> IIUC, foo(n: int = None) means that if you pass a parameter, it must be an int (you may not pass it)
[16:52] <__chip__> foo(n: int = None)  is wrong
[16:52] <__chip__> because n = None can't be done if n is int
[16:53] <facubatista> according to whom?
[16:53] <__chip__> hmm
[16:53] <__chip__> hold on maybe i misunderstood
[16:54] <__chip__> i was sure i had run this past mypy and it had complained
[16:54] <__chip__> gasp
[16:54] <__chip__> mypy is now saying that Optional happens automatically
[16:55] <__chip__> look:
[16:55] <__chip__> given def foo(n: int = None) -> int:
[16:55] <facubatista> __chip__, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/pJHQGvttyy/ ?
[16:55] <__chip__>     return 2*n
[16:55]  * __chip__ looks
[16:55] <__chip__> tal cual
[16:55] <__chip__> but now change it to → int and return 2*n
[16:56] <__chip__> it looks like this only works with None, you can't do shenanigans like foo(n: int = 'hello')
[16:57] <__chip__> but for =None, it automatically makes it Optional
[16:57] <__chip__> that's Neat
[16:57] <__chip__> this is new, or when i tested i bungled the test :)
[16:57] <facubatista> __chip__, the problem is the value in multiplication, not the signature
[16:57] <__chip__> facubatista: yes but that's where you see that it's promoted the n to Optional
[16:57] <__chip__> it says the operand is of type "Optional[int]"
[16:57] <facubatista> __chip__, this is fine: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/vtcgXWNhG7/
[16:58] <__chip__> yep
[16:58] <__chip__> so maybe we can do without those Optionals in our annotations
[16:58] <__chip__> i'll give it a pass over later
[16:58] <__chip__> right now i need to soft-eod and go for a short run and make dinner
[17:00] <facubatista> __chip__, it looks Optional is now optional :p
[17:00] <facubatista> __chip__, see https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/8bmYJSxY79/
[17:00] <__chip__> facubatista: or is it that optional is Optional
[17:00] <facubatista> as it's "optional at Python level", it just does the right thing (tm)
[17:01] <__chip__> facubatista: but, again, only if None afaict
[17:01] <facubatista> __chip__, see `bar` in my last pastebin
[17:02] <__chip__> facubatista: and def foo(n: typing.Union[str, int] = None) -> int: return 2*n    and you see that it's promoting the Union to Optional, and then the stringify of that optional union has the same issue as it does in sphinx
[17:02] <__chip__> facubatista: there's no promotion there
[17:03] <__chip__> typing.Optional just means "it can also be None"
[17:03] <__chip__> because typing.Optional[SomeType] is just typing.Union[SomeType, NoneType]
[17:03] <facubatista> __chip__, I don't care about that special case, as everything else seems to work just fine without using Optional
[17:04] <__chip__> k
[17:04] <facubatista> __chip__, I mean
[17:04] <__chip__> anyway, soft-eod for me
[17:04] <facubatista> __chip__, it looks everything "is just fine" without using Optional at all
[17:04] <__chip__> afaict yes
[17:04] <__chip__> i'm going to try (later) and see what breaks if anything :)
[17:10] <__chip__> oh rats, https://github.com/sphinx-doc/sphinx/pull/7298
[17:10] <mup_> PR sphinx-doc/sphinx#7298: py domain: Add py:property directive to describe a property (refs: #7068) <domains:py> <enhancement> <refactoring> <Created by tk0miya> <https://github.com/sphinx-doc/sphinx/pull/7298>
[17:10] <__chip__> we're going to get into trouble with descriptors
[17:10] <__chip__> with both mypy and sphinx
[17:10] <__chip__> afaict
[17:10] <__chip__> booo
[17:10] <__chip__> ANYWAY I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE GONE
[17:23]  * facubatista bb~1h
[17:29]  * facubatista didn't go :p
[17:51]  * facubatista bb~1h for real now
[19:12]  * facubatista is back
[21:04] <__chip__> ok, i'm out
[21:04] <__chip__> facubatista: amañá!
[21:04] <facubatista> __chip__, chaus
[21:21] <__chip__> facubatista: i lied!
[21:21] <__chip__> muahahaha
[21:21] <facubatista> jajaja
[21:21] <__chip__> facubatista: could you review #281?
[21:21] <mup_> PR #281: make flake8 happy again <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/281>
[21:22] <mup_> PR operator#281 opened: make flake8 happy again <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/281>
[21:22] <__chip__> facubatista: both you and jаm have (i think?) written the same thing but mixed up with other stuff
[21:23] <facubatista> __chip__, indeed; there +1'ed it
[21:23] <__chip__> facubatista: thank you for buying the conflict :-)
[21:24]  * __chip__ pokes travis
[21:26] <facubatista> :)
[21:26] <mup_> PR operator#281 closed: make flake8 happy again <Created by chipaca> <Merged by chipaca> <https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/281>
[21:30] <__chip__> facubatista: anything i can review for you?
[21:30] <facubatista> __chip__, I lost track, tomorrow need to do a pass on everything
[21:31] <facubatista> I think I have feedback on everything, though
[21:31] <__chip__> facubatista: ok
[21:31] <__chip__> facubatista: you've also been here since forever
[21:31] <__chip__> almost as long as me (but i went off and had dinner and watched some netflix)
[21:31] <facubatista> __chip__, I took a nap :)
[21:31] <__chip__> facubatista: ah, good :)
[21:31]  * facubatista is not 25 since a long time ago
[21:49] <__chip__> facubatista: i can resolve that conflict for you if you want
[21:49] <__chip__> s/if you want/if you don't mind/
[22:03] <facubatista> __chip__, no worries, I will work it out tomorrow
[22:06] <__chip__> grrr, squash merge i hate you so much
[22:06] <__chip__> "i've seen this change before, let me just search for the commit hash"
[22:06] <__chip__> hahaha nope
[22:08] <facubatista> __chip__, we can stop squashing
[22:08]  * facubatista hates squashing, it's human solution to a technical problem
[22:09]  * __chip__ likes butternut squash
[22:18]  * __chip__ zzzs


[10:36] <Nairwolf> Hi ;) I'm gonna install Xubuntu 16.04 in my personal laptop right now ;) See you later ;)
[11:48] <flocculant> ochosi: while you're still XPL can you renew me in release team before it causes tracker issues for me please :)
[11:48] <flocculant> unless
[11:48] <flocculant> !team | if anyone wants to do QA instead of me - shout out :)
[11:48] <knome> indeed, XPL stuffz
[11:49] <knome> flocculant, any date when you'd at latest want the first meeting?
[11:50] <knome> ochosi, my turn to schedule next meeting, but would probably be good to coordinate it so that you can be around, so ping me with your available dates
[11:50] <knome> ochosi, (and times)
[11:50] <flocculant> knome: well couple of things we need to get sorted out as soon as we can = millstones and package testing or not
[11:50] <flocculant> though the last is more bluesabre and me I guess
[11:50] <knome> mhm
[11:50] <flocculant> but still should be discussed by team
[11:51] <knome> i'd say put up a thread for the milestone participation on the mailing list
[11:51] <flocculant> could do
[11:51] <knome> also for archiving purposes and something to point people to if they ask
[11:51] <flocculant> true
[11:51] <knome> i think it's a question between 1/2 betas anyway
[11:51] <flocculant> especially given my position now :D
[11:51] <knome> and i think the team has been historically bending towards 1 beta with non-LTS stuff
[11:52] <flocculant> knome: oh btw - that nugget thing - not actually live - think I saw that only with a ppa version of xfpm :)
[11:52] <flocculant> well - we've always done the betas iirc
[11:53] <knome> so no nuggets for the users :P
[11:53] <flocculant> yup
[11:53] <flocculant> well some - you might want to be aware of these things with gnome software
[11:53] <flocculant> " "
[11:59] <flocculant> mail sent
[11:59] <flocculant> biab
[12:00] <knome> lol
[12:02] <knome> and replied
[12:02] <knome> going some shopping next
[12:03] <knome> and then visit mum
[12:03] <knome> so will be afk'ish the rest of the evening before night
[12:03] <knome> might pop in as knome-tracker though :P
[12:03] <flocculant> :)
[12:03] <flocculant> cya later
[12:09] <knome> yup, hf
[12:09] <knome> -->
[12:28] <Nairwolf> hi guys ;) I think I shouldn't say that here, but could you explain me this bug please : https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1366546 ?
[12:28] <Nairwolf> I'm using a laptop with efi, and for 14.04 I've created a /boot/efi partition, and it worked fine.
[12:29] <Nairwolf> Do you think I should do the same thing ?
[12:40] <flocculant> Nairwolf: not a clue - and you should #xubuntu or #ubuntu for support :)
[12:41] <Nairwolf> Thanks flocculant ;)
[12:41] <flocculant> oh you did :p
[12:41] <Nairwolf> yes, at #ubuntu, more people should answer me
[12:51] <flocculant> we haz dailies
[12:56] <Nairwolf> Yes ! I'm now on Xubuntu 16.04 ;)
[12:58] <flocculant> Release:	16.10
[12:58] <Nairwolf> oh, really ?
[12:58]  * flocculant is
[12:58] <Nairwolf> how do you that ? You just boot on a 16.10 daily iso and then update it ?
[12:59] <flocculant> no - I change sources
[12:59] <Nairwolf> oh, yes ;)
[12:59] <Nairwolf> 16.10 and 16.04 aren't too much different right now, I think
[13:00] <flocculant> Nairwolf: nope not yet :)
[13:19] <Nairwolf> now, it's time to put back all my precious data from my hdd to my computer
[20:53] <ochosi> bluesabre, flocculant: hey there! i renewed our membership in -release until 2016-10-30
[20:55] <Unit193> ochosi: Howdy.
[20:55] <ochosi> hey there Unit193
[20:56] <ochosi> what's up?
[20:57] <knome> everything that's not down..
[21:06] <ochosi> oook, guess i should've seen that coming
[21:07] <ochosi> anyway, it's been a full weekend, gotta get some sleep before i gotta get up for work again


[04:16] <rww> fun fact: #ubuntu has 405 entries on the bqeI lists
[04:17] <Flannel> Do we win if we get it to 500?
[04:17] <Flannel> If so, I'm going to set exceptions and invites for all sorts of important people.
[04:18] <rww> one of these days I'm going to convince staff to set -L out of principle
[04:47] <rww> ugh, can we not ban ranges like<EMAIL_ADDRESS>from #ubuntu
[07:52] <elfy> good morning - not sure if there's much point in doing so - but the purelxde and purexfce factoids are pointing to aysiu's psychocat tutorials - which he doesn't maintain anymore - he moved newer stuff to blog - but newest one there is for 13.04
[07:52] <elfy> thanks
[08:38] <AlanBell> !purelxde
[08:38] <AlanBell> !purexfce
[09:11] <Pricey> rww: We could definitely arrange something.
[12:05] <bazhang> !quantal
[21:08] <Pici> Nearly every time I kick someone like that, I make a little 'toodles' wave at the monitor
[21:11] <chu> lol


[00:01] <phillw> belkinsa: as long as you promise not to tell anyone.... I will help you with both docs and classroom sessions. you know where to find me.
[00:11] <pleia2> belkinsa: oh yes, go for it
[00:12] <belkinsa> Thanks again.
[00:16] <belkinsa> knome, ping.
[00:17] <knome> pong
[00:18] <belkinsa> You are the one that designed the menu header item for the Doc Team's pages, right?
[00:28] <slickymaster> anf the one for NewDocs
[00:28] <slickymaster> s/anf/abd
[00:28] <slickymaster> bah :P
[00:28] <slickymaster> and ^^
[00:29] <belkinsa> Trying to work one out and I'm failing for some reason, if you saw, knome.
[00:30] <knome> nope, but i can look at it
[00:30] <knome> which one?
[00:31] <belkinsa> This is one: DocumentationTeam/MenuBar, is the one that I basing the NewDocs one off of.
[00:32] <knome> where's the NewDocs one?
[00:32] <belkinsa> This is the blank page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Header
[00:32] <belkinsa> I tried it but ended up ditching the header.
[00:32] <knome> aha
[00:32] <knome> what do you want to link from it?
[00:33] <belkinsa> Homepage: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/HomePage Workflow: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/WorkflowPage
[00:33] <belkinsa> What else, slickymaster?
[00:33] <belkinsa> Oh!  The icon of NewDocs: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Icons
[00:34] <slickymaster> hmm https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/ContactPage <---
[00:34] <belkinsa> That too.
[00:36] <slickymaster> belkinsa: above the Category tage you should have 4 hyphens, not 3
[00:38] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Header
[00:38] <knome> that's the skeleton
[00:38] <knome> how do you like it styled?
[00:38] <belkinsa> I don't see it.
[00:38] <belkinsa> And I will fix that slickymaster.
[00:38] <knome> hard refresh
[00:38] <knome> ctrl+shift+R
[00:38] <belkinsa> I got it.
[00:38] <belkinsa> F5 = that, knome?
[00:39] <knome> that's not exactly the same
[00:39] <knome> ctrl+shift+R purges the browser cache for that page
[00:39] <belkinsa> I see.
[00:39] <knome> and reloads all images and linked files again
[00:40] <belkinsa> The header is good so far but did you add the icon image yet?
[00:40] <slickymaster> belkinsa: no need to. I alreday done that
[00:40] <belkinsa> Okay, for the image or the tag?
[00:40] <slickymaster> hey looks great knome
[00:41] <slickymaster> thanks for leaning a helpful hand
[00:41] <belkinsa> yes, thank you.
[00:41] <knome> aha, so you want to add the newdocs icon to the header?
[00:41] <slickymaster> belkinsa: the tag
[00:41] <knome> are you sure you want to use that image? ;)
[00:41] <knome> the 14x14 px version doesn't look like... much
[00:42] <belkinsa> slickymaster, thanks and the icon image is up to you.  I was just thinking of the Doc Team's header menu object.
[00:42] <slickymaster> hey knome that image took me almost a afternnon to put together
[00:42] <knome> awwh :)
[00:42] <knome> i would have poked an icon theme and see for an existing icon
[00:42] <belkinsa> We have 96^2'd and 172^2'd also.
[00:42] <slickymaster> but I'm not a graphical designer and suck at gimp :P
[00:43] <knome> belkinsa, i know, i'm looking at the icons page
[00:43] <belkinsa> Er, 96 x 96 pi.
[00:47] <knome> sooooo... how do you like that styled?
[00:47] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Are you still looking for me? I know it is now very late for you.
[00:47] <knome> color?
[00:48] <belkinsa> I think the basic color that the Doc Team uses since NewDocs is a part of the Docs.
[00:48] <belkinsa> If that made any sense.
[00:49] <knome> if you're thinking like that, why not links the docs under the main docs header?
[00:49] <slickymaster> hmmm I think that NewDocs never even thought about that
[00:49] <belkinsa> As in?
[00:49] <belkinsa> I was told that once, slickymaster/.
[00:49] <knome> belkinsa, include NewDocs as an item to the DocumentationTeam banner
[00:50] <slickymaster> that sounds a vet good idea knome
[00:50] <belkinsa> Sure, I think that might be needed.
[00:50] <slickymaster> s/vet/very
[00:50] <belkinsa> Well, is very, very needed.
[00:50] <knome> also thinking how high traffic the irc channel is? while i wouldn't mind to be on that channel, i try to limit channels, so... meh :/
[00:51] <knome> this channel isn't too busy either
[00:51] <belkinsa> Most the channels that I'm in are quiet.
[00:52]  * slickymaster goes back to what he was doing
[00:52] <knome> slickymaster, nooo
[00:52] <belkinsa> +1 ^^^
[00:52] <slickymaster> :)
[00:52] <knome> slickymaster, unless that's convincing unit for the next XPL ;)
[00:52] <slickymaster> :) that's where I was returning to :)
[00:53] <knome> i always encourage new people to contribute any way they want to, but on the other hand, more bureaucracy is.. meh
[00:53] <knome> slickymaster, did you look more closely to that... output i gave you?
[00:53] <slickymaster> sorry, wasn't here
[00:54] <knome> slickymaster, you are misunderstanding. we had a PM some time ago
[00:54] <slickymaster> yes, I remember
[00:54] <slickymaster> hey wait
[00:55] <slickymaster> to which one are you referering?
[00:55] <knome> haha
[00:55] <knome> let me dig that up...
[00:57] <knome> building...
[00:57] <knome> humpf
[00:58] <knome> http://temp.knome.fi/temp/docs/docs-popular.html
[00:59] <slickymaster> ah, well I must say that that listing raise quite some drama among the ranks
[00:59] <belkinsa> Brb- dinner.
[00:59] <knome> well that's raw data, not an opinion ;)
[01:00] <slickymaster> it was hard for some to understand what it was and how it could be worked with
[01:00] <slickymaster> but step by step I manage to tutuor them and they are know actually using it as a aid in NewDocs
[01:00] <knome> ok, cool
[01:01] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'm here. :)
[01:01] <knome> so how do you think about putting newdocs under the general docs banner?
[01:01] <slickymaster> I think it would be a great bump for the project
[01:02] <slickymaster> but I'm not NewDocs lead, I have always been kind of in the background providing a more technical view on what should be added or/and removed
[01:02] <knome> i know it might be a bit touchy for some, but the name isn't really descriptive..
[01:03] <knome> are the leading people (ever) on IRC?
[01:03] <slickymaster> and editing in the comminity wiki page
[01:03] <dsmythies> Gunnarhj: I was away from my desk for a moment.
[01:03] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Me too.
[01:03] <slickymaster> nopes,they don't use it
[01:04] <slickymaster> they are more into the forums
[01:04] <knome> slickymaster, do you think there would be any chance to schedule a sprint with them?
[01:04] <slickymaster> I can try
[01:05] <knome> i think it would be a good idea to sit down together and actually talk between the newdocs team and other people who are working with the wiki, like some admins here (me, pleia2)
[01:05] <slickymaster> I'll contact them to see if they're willing and their availability
[01:05] <belkinsa> Back.  slickymaster, maybe need to pass this header and the linking of our team and the NewDocs to BlinkyCat?
[01:05] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: What's up?
[01:05] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I get the impression that outdated items are stripped from the PO files in the package, but that they are otherwise the same.
[01:05] <slickymaster> I agree with you knome
[01:05] <belkinsa> Or the whole team...
[01:06] <knome> slickymaster, can also set up a doodle poll to find out what times would work for them
[01:06] <slickymaster> belkinsa: ^^^
[01:06] <knome> in what timezones are they?
[01:06] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: So they seem to be synced somehow.
[01:06] <belkinsa> Okay, that works also.  But getting them on IRC is the problem and timezones.
[01:06] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I agree (now and finally) except for the dates 2011 Vs 2013.
[01:06] <slickymaster> australia, states (don't remember which state
[01:07] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Yeah, I noticed those dates. But they don't mean anything in practice.
[01:07] <belkinsa> But I think she is in EST.
[01:07] <knome> getting them in IRC would only be posting them a webchat link.
[01:07] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: The POT file update yesterday thew me off. I can fix the dates amnaully
[01:07] <belkinsa> So, -5 GMT.
[01:07] <belkinsa> knome, yeah, but it's something else: they are forum folks not IRC folks.
[01:08] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I think I know how to proceed...
[01:08] <knome> belkinsa, i understand that. forums aren't a very effective way to discuss things with people though...
[01:08] <belkinsa> Agreed.
[01:08] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: ?
[01:09] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll add the missing languges, take the PO files from "Package" 44 from no subdirectory and 24 from subdirectory and commit.
[01:09] <slickymaster> I'v already set them up with personalized links to freenode, including the their nick's and channels names
[01:09] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Sounds good to me.
[01:09] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: If I mess up, somehow, we'll revert.
[01:09] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I suppose that the fact that some of them are outside subdirs doesn't mean anything.
[01:10] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I still hope to hear from dpm on that. It makes no sense to me and I do not like things that do not make sense.
[01:10] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I think we proceed as you suggest, request an upload and see what happens.
[01:11] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll do my part, then you can do the changelog and go from there.
[01:11] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Why are you working with Ubuntu then? ;-)
[01:11] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: lol lol lol
[01:11]  * slickymaster is going to smoke the last cigarette of the day
[01:11] <knome> slickymaster, belkinsa: anyone of them around right now?
[01:12] <belkinsa> Dunno.
[01:12] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Sorry for the delays. Yesterday things were very confused.
[01:12] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Agreed. If you fix the POs, I'll update the changelog tomorrow and ping some core-dev.
[01:12] <slickymaster> BlinkinCat might be
[01:12] <slickymaster> Ĩ'l take a look in the forum~
[01:13] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Really no need for you to apologize.
[01:13] <slickymaster> yes, he's listed as being online
[01:14] <belkinsa> BlinkyCat?
[01:14] <slickymaster> yes
[01:14] <slickymaster> knome: I'll PM via the forum to see if he'd mind to come here
[01:15] <knome> sure :)
[01:22] <slickymaster> belkinsa:if you please read the logs to catch up on what I and knome were discussing
[01:22] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: One more thing: Shouldn't we go to https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubuntu-docs/+sharing-details and remove the links to the project?
[01:22] <slickymaster> knome: sent
[01:22] <knome> slickymaster, ta
[01:23]  * slickymaster now s really going to smoke the last cigarette of the day
[01:24] <slickymaster> hey BlinkinCat good morning to you
[01:24] <slickymaster> night to us
[01:24] <knome> o hai!
[01:26] <slickymaster> knome, belkinsa he's over at #ubuntu-newdocs
[01:27] <slickymaster> is easier for us to go there than for him to come here
[01:38] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll bounce all of this off dpm (already started, actually) and solicite his opinion.
[01:42] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Good. But I have a feeling that dpm does not know about the package related details. He isn't a computing engineer.
[01:42] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Oh.
[01:43] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: You often encounter that problem. Very few - if any - have the whole picture.
[01:43] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: So in this case I'd say that we will probably need to figure out some stuff ourselves.
[01:43] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K.
[02:25] <belkinsa> pleia2, do you accept .doc files?  Because I'm thinking about doing my outline in LO Writer.
[02:26] <knome> why no .odr
[02:26] <knome> *odt
[02:27] <belkinsa> Because my LO is set to .doc for the ease for everyone at my school.
[02:31] <knome> heh
[02:32]  * knome shakes head
[02:33] <knome> belkinsa, go to sleep. you're tired.
[02:33] <knome> belkinsa, you just sent a mail about mailing list prefixes, then sent another mail without one :)
[02:35] <belkinsa> Carp, I did.  But!  It's not official yet.
[04:01] <pleia2> belkinsa: fine by me
[15:51] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: ping?
[16:44] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I am here, but didn't notice your "ping" until now.
[16:44] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok..
[16:44] <GunnarHj> Did you see that I can't approve those two imports?
[16:45] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Guess it's because they have your name on them...
[16:45] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, but I wonder if I just explained what to do poorly. I just sent you and e-mail with screen shots.
[16:46] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: For sure it is not becuase I did the commit.
[16:48] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Done. :)
[16:49] <dsmythies> GunnarhJ: Great.
[16:49] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: What I did was clicking the yellow thing to the right...
[16:50] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: And there was the approve option greyed out.
[16:50] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Anyway, this little issue resolved now. Thanks!
[16:50] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, that is what I guessed just a moment before I was going to send that e-mail, so I did the screen shot stuff to clarify.
[16:51] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: So, are we ready to go now?
[16:53] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, I think so. Myself, I would like to export the POs again from the "project", just to observe if the new languages end up in subdirectories.
[16:54] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: And maybe just to observe/confirm that they are O.K>
[16:54] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Do you mean before the upload?
[16:55] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Isn't that one of the things that will be examined via the upload?
[16:56] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I think you can proceed, and I'll do my bit when I have time.
[16:56] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'm talking about within the "project" only type stuff.
[16:57] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok.
[16:58] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'll check if seb128 is still on line. It's a little late in Europe, so he may have left. In that case I'll wait until Monday.
[16:59] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I didn't do the changelog for this latest bit.
[17:00] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Saw that. I'll do it.
[17:00] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. (it was on purpose, as I wanted you to do it.)
[17:01] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Thought so.
[17:01] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: But going forward, I think we should consider to update the changelog together with each commit.
[17:02] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: No. And there is a long thread about this from last cycle. I'll try to find it and forward it to you.
[17:03] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok, discussed before... ;-)
[17:15] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I pushed the changelog and talked with seb128, who will upload soon. :)
[17:33] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Thanks for the update.
[17:33] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: np
[17:34] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Now let's just hope that nothing goes wrong...
[17:35] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: But I'm really glad that we do this now, i.e. not waiting untill after March 20.
[18:00] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I didn't see your previous two comments until now, but agree. The today PO files export  (project) all have proper sub-directories. The content is quite changed though, but seems like O.K. changes. Some of it seems to be re-wrapping of lines. More on that later today (I don't have time now).
[18:27] <cprofitt> hello all
[19:56] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Are you still here?
[19:56] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Yep.
[19:57] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I haven't had the guts to look at the PO stuff yet. Have you?
[19:57] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: For example, French statsu should have moved to about 121 string to translate, but hasn't. Maybe a launchpad propegation delay, but also see stuff held in queue here:
[19:58] <dsmythies> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubuntu-docs/+imports
[19:59] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Don't you think we should wait a few hours - maybe a day - and let LP do its things?
[19:59] <belkinsa> Hey therem cprofitt.
[19:59] <belkinsa> there,*
[20:00] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. but "needs review" I think means manual intervention required. In this case, "package", I do not have rights. On the "project", I do.
[20:01] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'm not sure of that. I think there is some automatic "review" taking place. But that may take some time.
[20:01] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K.
[20:02] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: So my suggestion is that we check the status again tomorrow and talk then about how to proceed (if there is anything left to do).
[20:03] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I am not familar with "package" delay times. I watch "project" dellay times very closely. Thay are much much faster than they used to be. O.K. on tomorrow to pick it up.
[20:05] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: My experience is *very* limited. But I translated a few strings for the lightdm package, and noticed that my manual import first resulted in "needs review" but was imported a few hours later. And I don't think that any human did anything.
[20:07] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. My only expericne is with the ones that sit forever in the import queue without manual help. So we'll see tomorrow.
[20:07] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: We will.
[20:07] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Btw, do you think the message to ubuntu-translators was clear enough?
[20:08] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes.
[20:09] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Great!
[20:39] <shaunm_> when's the next version of ubuntu, and what version of yelp will it include?
[20:44] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Next release is in April, and currently we have yelp 3.10.1-1ubuntu1 in the archive.
[20:58] <shaunm_> GunnarHj: cool
[20:58] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Enough current version?
[20:59] <shaunm_> I'm trying to get 3.12 to follow the GNOME 3 designs. I suspect that's going to make it less suitable as the help viewer under Unity.
[21:00] <shaunm_> I want to work on making the UI adapt so that it fits the Unity designs when run under Unity, but feature freeze for GNOME is Monday.
[21:00] <shaunm_> So if Ubuntu just skips 3.12 entirely, I can get some Unity design work in for 3.14, and everybody wins.
[21:03] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Hmm.. Wonder who should have that info. The package is maintained in Ubuntu by "Ubuntu Developers", i.e. no individual maintainer.
[21:03] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Guess the doc team should try to keep our eyes open. ;-)
[21:08] <GunnarHj> Hi belkinsa!
[21:08] <belkinsa> Hey there, GunnarHj..
[21:08] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: Why not just go ahead and change https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki ?
[21:08] <belkinsa> Sure, but I think I want feedback first.
[21:09] <GunnarHj> belkinsa: That change is so obvious so it shouldn't be necessary.
[21:10] <belkinsa> Alright
[21:10] <GunnarHj> :)
[21:10] <belkinsa> On it.
[21:11] <belkinsa> And done.
[21:11] <belkinsa> dsmythies, you should be aware of this change.
[21:11] <pleia2> belkinsa: I also don't think we need to "notify the community" of the change, it's really central to docs and it's automatic+transparent for anyone who visists help.ubuntu.com/community
[21:12] <pleia2> it's really just a syncing up of our naming
[21:12] <belkinsa> Gotcha.
[21:12] <belkinsa> (Even I have the fear of doing something)
[21:12] <pleia2> fear of doing something?
[21:13] <belkinsa> Editing a page is what I meant and causing a uproar.
[21:13] <pleia2> GunnarHj's right, it's a good change
[21:44] <dsmythies> belkinsa: Thanks for the heads up.
[21:44] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[21:46] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: shaunm_: We are not asking for a change to yelp version for upcoming release. We are wanting (must have) newer yelp-tools and yelp-xsl, as per the two bug reports I put in and set to "critical" a couple of weeks ago (to 3.11. something)
[21:51] <GunnarHj> dsmythies, shaunm_: I just talked with Iain Lane, and he said that the Ubuntu developers are told to not upgrade to GNOME 3.12 for any package before the 14.04 release. So possibly we will have the burden of proof to make them upgrade to 3.11.
[21:53] <shaunm_> dsmythies: it's safe to upgrade to yelp-xsl and yelp-tools 3.12 while leaving yelp at 3.10
[21:54] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: No depencency issues?
[21:54] <GunnarHj> dependency
[21:56] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: shaunm_: I have been running yelp-tools and yelp-xsl 3.11.3 and 3.11.5 (cann't recall the order of which version goes where) with whatever yelp comes with 14.04 for a few weeks now.
[21:56] <dsmythies> shaunm_: You know all this.
[21:58] <shaunm_> GunnarHj: not in that direction
[21:58] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp-xsl/+bug/1276227 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp-tools/+bug/1276230
[21:58] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1276227 in yelp-xsl (Ubuntu) "Version >= 3.11.5 needed for Trusty" [Critical,New]
[21:58] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1276230 in yelp-tools (Ubuntu) "Version >= 3.11.3 needed for Trusty" [Critical,New]
[21:58] <shaunm_> yelp updates sometimes require yelp-xsl updates, but almost never the other way around
[22:02] <GunnarHj> shaunm_: Ok, thanks. Then it shouldn't be a problem to have 3.11 or 3.12 of yelp-(xsl/tools) in the archive, I suppose.
[22:05] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Looked at those bug reports. "Critical" is not correct, I think, if you study the guidelines for setting importance. The packages are not shipped by default, but only installed as needed. So I would think that to get those upgrades in we'd better prepare the necessary MPs.
[22:11] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I did review the guidelines, and they are needed now and so thought cricial was apprpriate. I was trying to beat the debian import freeze deadline (now long past) becuase such stuff typically goes via debian first (acccording to Kevin). I have no intention of doing whatever MP's, at some point someone else has to to stuff. I'm overloaded.
[22:12] <knome> pleia2, do we further want to change the wording on https://help.ubuntu.com/? Says "community contributed documentation" on the link now
[22:12] <dsmythies> knome: I was wondering that also.
[22:12] <knome> i mean, we probably do... but what text should replace that?
[22:13] <belkinsa> knome, +1
[22:13] <knome> "... visit the community help wiki for..." ?
[22:13] <pleia2> knome: +1
[22:13] <knome> ok, i'll reply on the ticket
[22:13] <pleia2> knome: wait, don't we manage that?
[22:13] <knome> do we?
[22:13] <dsmythies> knome: and was about to update help.ubuntu.com anyhow as I didn't get around to the 13.04 EOL deletions yet.
[22:14] <pleia2> I think dsmythies does :)
[22:14] <dsmythies> pleia2: Yes we do.
[22:14] <knome> ah, then ping dsmythies :P
[22:14] <knome> great.
[22:14] <belkinsa> Also, are we going to a have vUDS session for this upcoming one?
[22:14] <knome> i've bugged the IS enough during the last month
[22:15] <pleia2> I can't participate in mid-cycle UDSes
[22:15] <knome> i can't participate in fake-UDSses (:
[22:16] <dsmythies> knome or anybody. However, I looked at help.ubuntu.com a few hours ago and don't know what to change to what.
[22:17] <knome> dsmythies, says now:
[22:17] <knome> If you don't find what you are looking for, visit the community contributed documentation for even more material!
[22:17] <knome> dsmythies, should say:
[22:17] <knome> If you don't find what you are looking for, visit the community help wiki for even more material!
[22:18] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Does debian has a plan to upgrade from 3.10.1-1 soon? Or are you suggesting that we would make an exception and bypass Debian in this case?
[22:19] <dsmythies> knome: Aghh: The glue level html pages then. O.K. easy. It will be published after I do the 13.04 deletions stuff.
[22:21] <knome> cheers :)
[22:24] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I looked up the minatainers of both Ubuntu and Debian yelp-tools and yelp-xsl, and some were the same. So I had hoped that the bug reports would be enough to get some traction. It appears it wasn't. I was not trying to by pass Debian in this case, and originally there was lots of time, but I lost a bunch due to 14.04 development issues breaking my VM's. Anyway, it got to be now and I don't know what to do. I'll have to re-assess I guess.
[22:25] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: shaun put some stuff in particulary to address our upsteam problem reports. I had hoped to include in the LTS release from the start.
[22:26] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'll take a look at the sources...
[22:27] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Re: changlog stuff from earlier today. See: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017776.html (the whole thread).
[22:27] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Right, I already read that thread.
[22:28] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Actually I'm not convinced.
[22:29] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: You can well have a changelog entry UNRELEASED and add lines to it when committing.
[22:31] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: The advantage of doing so is that when you commit something (your own change or merging someone else's MP) you are completely up to date with the nature of the change, and it's easy to add a proper wording. If somebody does it afterwards, s/he needs to read up on the topic to be able to know what to write in the changelog. That's not very effective.
[22:33] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Well, I do not know what to say here. I thought we drove this topic to conlusion. We can re-open the discussion. Myself, I'm against it.
[22:34] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: What makes you be against it?
[22:37] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: It's not a big deal for me. But to be honest it took me several hours to update the changelog. Maybe I was too careful, but I took pains in getting all the LP: #xxxxxxx in, for instance.
[22:41] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll forward you an e-mail in a moment.
[22:41] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok.
[22:43] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: As regards yelp-tools and yelp-xsl: We have exactly the same stuff in the archive as Debian unstable. Maybe we should talk to somebody about the possibilities to upgrade.
[22:45] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Bug reports don't always get the attention they deserve. Since there are far too many of them compared to the available developer resources.
[22:48] <dsmythies> GunnarHj: Agreed, and I know. I simply have not had to capactity to follow up since I entered the bug reports.
[22:49] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Don't we all have some loose ends... ;-)
[22:56] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: Read the e-mail.
[22:59] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: I feel we are currently dealing with things that may have caused frustration in the past. :)
[22:59] <GunnarHj> dsmythies: But I suggest that we drop the changelog discussion for now. Maybe next cycle...
[23:00] <knome> i'd like to read a mail that speaks for not updating changelogs as you go as well...
[23:01] <dsmythies> knome: most of the discussion is in the thread I gave a link to above.
[23:01] <knome> ok, i'll look there
[23:02] <dsmythies> knome: We relied on input from Matthew East on the sbuject. However GunnarHj has a point as to how long it took him to update it.
[23:03] <knome> i mostly tell people to update the changelog as they go
[23:03] <knome> ultimately, when we're closer to release, it's easier to make it look a bit better
[23:03] <knome> than start looking at diffs
[23:10] <GunnarHj> I think the changelog is not just a formality. It's a way to give people who fixed bugs public credit for their work, and as regards packagex (ubuntu) bug tasks, the LP: #xxxxxxx entries result in those tasks autmatically be marked as "Fix released".
[23:12] <knome> GunnarHj, when the package is uploaded.
[23:12] <knome> GunnarHj, but not when it's merged.
[23:12] <GunnarHj> knome: Right, when uploaded.
[23:13] <knome> i don't see any problem bugs that are fixed and merged in a branch that is used to built packages for the current release, marked fix committed
[23:14] <GunnarHj> knome: That sentence is not easy to parse. ;-)
[23:14] <knome> lol, i'll rephras
[23:15] <knome> if bugfixes are in a branch, which is the source for a package,
[23:15] <knome> i don't see any problem with the respective bugs marked "fix committed"
[23:16] <knome> ultimately, the UNRELEASED status makes it obivious that the bugfixes aren't *released*
[23:16] <knome> failure to release bugfixes that are waiting in a branch that only needs an upload is another story
[23:16] <GunnarHj> knome: No, before the package *upload*, "Fix committed" is the correct status, I think.
[23:17] <knome> GunnarHj, ...which is what the bugs will have
[23:17] <knome> they're marked "fix released" only after upload+release is done
[23:18] <GunnarHj> knome: I know - did you think I said something else?
[23:18] <knome> no
[23:18] <knome> i guess we're agreeing here
[23:18] <GunnarHj> me too
[23:19] <knome> i fail to see arguments against building the changelog up as we go
[23:21] <knome> we encourage people to update the changelog when they've done changes to the documentation, and tell them to use common sense if something needs an entry in the bugfix (IMO, "fixed a typo" doesn't)
[23:21] <knome> practically we still see if the changelog correlates with reality when uploading
[23:28] <dsmythies> knome: belkinsa: I am now going to to help.ubuntu.com in two steps. Please see step one, I think I got them all (except 13.04, because it will be deleted in step 2 anyhow): http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/revision/116
[23:29] <belkinsa> You still have 10.04
[23:29] <dsmythies> Yes, for serverguide
[23:29] <belkinsa> Oh.
[23:29] <knome> is "the excellent source of community help wiki" fluent?
[23:29] <dsmythies> Dekstop is EOL and has been deleted.
[23:30] <dsmythies> knome: huh?
If you can't find what you are looking for here, try the excellent source of <a href="https://help.ubuntu.com/community" target="_top">community help wiki</a>.</p>
[23:30] <knome> that's what 13.10 and previous say
[23:31] <knome> i would probably just s/try the excellent source of/visit the/
[23:32] <dsmythies> knome: O.K.
[23:32] <knome> (as it stands in the current index.html anyway)
[23:32] <knome> otherwise, ack
[23:41] <dsmythies> knome: see: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/revision/117
[23:41] <knome> dsmythies, ACK
[23:41] <knome> looks good
[23:42] <belkinsa> All, sorry for that last e-mail, if it's too hard to read.
[23:47] <dsmythies> knome: I forgot that you automatically get e-mails about changes to help.ubuntu.com anyhow, as I just saw in my inbox.
[23:48] <knome> dsmythies, not the frontpage though


[15:07] <balloons> we are live!
[15:07] <mhall119> if you didn't see the video on ubuntuonair.com, refresh the page and it should be there now
[15:07] <mhall119> sorry about the technical difficulties
[15:07] <mhall119> and if you have any questions, ask them here starting with QUESTION
[15:11] <balloons> feel free to ask questions here
[15:13] <mhall119> if you have any questions, ask them here starting with QUESTION
[15:15] <alex02012> why are the ubuntuphones just sold in flash sales?
[15:15] <ahayzen> 1 hour earlier this week? ... damn DST lol
[15:16] <balloons> ahayzen, yea.. we're all confused
[15:16] <beardofomens> QUESTION: canonical push updates for ubuntu to all phones everywhere forever? so a year from now an ubuntu phone will still get new versions? is this a requirement for a carrier to do ubuntu that they permit it?
[15:16] <bendyone> when are you going to have 4g
[15:17] <balloons> hello everyone, feel free to ask your questions here
[15:17] <jnxd> Somehow the live streaming does not work on the very OS this Q&A is for :( Does anyone have a solution?
[15:18] <balloons> jnxd, is it still not working for you? We had some ssl config issues, but should be fixed now?
[15:18] <balloons> jnxd, if you still can't see video, try http://youtu.be/wBc5S1PBU1A
[15:19] <jnxd> It's probably due to the flash/html5 issue.
[15:19] <jnxd> ballons, youtube link behaves the same way as the ubuntuonair page
[15:20] <balloons> jnxd, ahh. :-( Did you try chrome/chromium and firefox?
[15:21] <jnxd> balloons, all I get is, "Your browser does not currently recognize any of the available formats...". I am on Firefox and I can see the previous videos pretty well
[15:21] <mhall119> keep the questions coming!
[15:22] <balloons> jnxd, I use ff as well
[15:23] <mhall119> anyone else on firefox able to see the video?
[15:23] <ahayzen> i can :)
[15:24] <bendyone> Question 4g as in LTE in the UK
[15:25] <balloons> hello everyone, feel free to ask your questions here! prefix them with question and we'll answer them
[15:25] <jnxd> BTW, a wild "7" seems to have appeared on the site on the left of the video. You might want to fight it off.
[15:25] <ahayzen> yeah i see a random "7" as well lol
[15:25] <mhall119> jnxd: fixed, thanks :)
[15:26] <bendyone> Using Ice Dragon in the UK no problems
[15:26] <jnxd> mhall119: that was fast!
[15:26] <theBest> QUESTION: What do you guys think about the UbuTab? (http://www.ubutabshop.com/)
[15:26] <mhall119> popey: where's your ports spreadsheet?
[15:27] <balloons> howdy howdy! feel free to ask your questions here! prefix them with question and we'll answer them
[15:28] <ChiSamurai> question: Is there any approach on porting Whatsapp to ubuntu touch? Telegram is fine, but WA is something like a killer app
[15:29] <popey> mhall119: https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/spreadsheets/d/1uUHF463g4f4L5ljWZf0l7b4VAevM-twHag4ZoEd_TNc/edit#gid=0
[15:29] <mhall119> popey: \o/
[15:29] <who_me> is this session about Ubuntu touch only or can we ask other questions regarding the desktop OS?
[15:29] <popey> mhall119: please pass on the info that I'm happy to grant edit rights to any community people who are maintaining a port
[15:29] <mhall119> who_me: you can ask any questions
[15:29] <popey> so they can update their lines
[15:29] <who_me> QUESTION: Are there plans to "backport" the nvidia proprietary drivers from 15.04 to Trusty? (the ones in Trusty's repos are ancient)
[15:29] <davmor2> QUESTION: Have you guys played with unity8 desktop what is your opinion of it?
[15:30] <who_me> QUESTION: Are you guys going to "play" with the online kernel updates for future versions of Ubuntu that will use the 4.x Linux kernel?
[15:31] <balloons> https://plus.google.com/+WillCooke/posts/BWBndjXhzUt
[15:31] <balloons> link ^^
[15:31] <popey> who_me: I'm already running 4.0 :)
[15:31] <popey> alan@deep-thought:~$ uname -a
[15:31] <popey> Linux deep-thought 4.0.0-040000rc4-generic #201503152135 SMP Mon Mar 16 01:36:37 UTC 2015 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[15:32] <who_me> popey, yes, but my Q is more about supporting that feature in the Software Updater
[15:33] <who_me> popey, are you running 4.0 rc with trusty as a base or Vivid?
[15:34] <jnxd> balloons: Do you have flash installed? Mine kept saying it's outdated and simply wouldn't work so I eventually got rid of it.
[15:35] <balloons> jnxd, no I don't have flash
[15:37] <popey> who_me: vivid
[15:37] <ChiSamurai> QUESTION: Any approach on porting Whatsapp to ubuntu touch?
[15:37] <jnxd> balloons: the plot thickens...
[15:40] <balloons> jnxd, if you are happy to try chrome, it has flash bundled and may solve your problem. That said, I'm html5 only and things seem to work fine
[15:42] <balloons> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity8Desktop
[15:43] <balloons> questions questions, send'em along, we'll answer them!
[15:43] <ChiSamurai> ah... missed to turn on video stream... so If there was any reaction on my question, I missed it...sorry :)
[15:44] <mhall119> ChiSamurai: there was, the tl;dr was that you should ask WhatsApp to port their app, as they tend to shut down 3rd party clients
[15:46] <jnxd> balloons: thanks for the suggestion, but I'm pretty happy with my firefox. I'll watch the Q&A some other time, maybe
[15:46] <daker> mine :)
[15:46] <daker> daker@daker-k:~$ uptime
[15:46] <daker>  15:48:03 up 69 days,  2:29,  3 users,  load average: 3,01, 2,74, 2,41
[15:47] <balloons> daker, nice :-)
[15:48] <daker> yes, chromium :)
[15:48] <balloons> last minute questions?
[15:49] <ChiSamurai> ah, thanks @mhall119 ... i'm looking forward very exited to get my Ubuntu Phone
[15:50] <balloons> post pictures when you get them!
[15:50] <balloons> thanks everyone. Sorry for the troubles with the stream earlier, and the changing times
[15:50] <ChiSamurai> promised! :)
[15:50] <balloons> jnxd, yea, sorry to hear about the trouble
[15:54] <Masternoob> #PhoneShipmentOnFridayHype \o/
[15:56] <who_me> mhall119, yup, live patching
[15:57] <jnxd> balloons: perhaps something about the version. On trusty here
[16:01] <who_me> thank you, bye
[16:04] <Masternoob> QUESTION: How happy is canonical with the bq sales/demand? Did they meet the expectations?
[16:12] <Masternoob> QUESTION How happy is canonical with the bq sales/demand? Did they meet the expectations?
[16:14] <balloons> Masternoob, hey you things.. DST messed up the hours I think, it was an hour ago
[16:14] <balloons> *missed
[16:16] <lteme> hello
[16:17] <Masternoob> @balloons xD ...well i should have noticed that...
[16:17] <Masternoob> thx for the info...
[16:30] <lteme> QUESTION There was an article on omgubuntu last year where VLC in addition to Lastpass was coming to ubuntu touch.  I haven't seen any other info on this.  Has anyone else heard anything? (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/02/vlc-lastpass-coming-ubuntu-touch)
[16:36] <lteme> QUESTION There was an article on omgubuntu last year where VLC in addition to Lastpass was coming to ubuntu touch.  I haven't seen any other info on this.  Has anyone else heard anything? (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/02/vlc-lastpass-coming-ubuntu-touch)
[16:38] <lteme> quit
[17:46] <Bernd> Ubuntu on OnePlus One  -  is it an illusion or will Canonical suport this  device?
[17:49] <PaulW2U> Bernd: are you watching a recording? if so your question won't be answered
[17:52] <davmor2> Bernd: No there is a community port being made
[17:56] <Bernd> the community port do not work realy... no network , no camera, and so on...
[18:50] <Technical> If I can use the phone I bought nearly anywhere in the world, why can't they be sold anywhere in the world?
[18:53] <toddc> I think you can buy BG from anywhere but due to hardware it does not work every where yet
[18:54] <Technical> you mean i.e. quadband?
[18:55] <Technical> So if I go to somewhere like the US my phone wouldnt work.
[18:55] <toddc> CMDA and 4G hardware issues
[18:55] <toddc> correct
[18:56] <Technical> oh dear, fair enough
[18:56] <toddc> again it is very new and as others come on board it will soon
[18:57] <Technical> How can you determine what countries it will work in?
[18:59] <toddc> sooo many standards and rapid deveopment it changes fast but from what I read US carriers some will and some not
[19:00] <toddc> It should work on t-mobile but not sprint or verizon
[19:00] <Technical> I'm from the UK but I'm wondering where it might not work while travelling
[19:03] <toddc> since it hardware for the most part it will depend on the phone currently two BG a Mezu I have not read much on the Mezu yet
[19:05] <toddc> GSM is working well and used in most of the world
[20:53] <Pinokiio> Hi
[21:18] <NiggafromAberdee> can i ask one question >
[21:18] <NiggafromAberdee> ?
[21:19] <NiggafromAberdee> ubuntu ask service is sleepinh already ?
[21:19] <NiggafromAberdee> tb sleeping
[21:21] <NiggafromAberdee> well thank you for answers .......................................\