[00:43] <mrroth> what should I look for a  server maintenance checklist
[00:43] <mrroth> of different clients
[00:53] <mrroth> could I do a simple or thier some web app for Server maintenance checklist
[01:07] <mrroth> is thier any free webbased project mangement app
[01:51] <boota2> hello, anyone alive?
[01:58] <Tm0> Hi. Can anyone help me set up Bind so i can use my VPS? :p
[02:01] <Tm0> Can anyone help me setup Bind?
[02:03] <RoyK> Tm0: google it
[02:03] <Tm0> I did. Suprisingly none of them told me what to do if i had two IP addresses
[02:08] <Tm0> Anyone?
[02:31] <boota2> hello
[02:31] <boota2> if you still need help i'm here and i've got nothing better to do with my time
[02:32] <boota2> so
[02:52] <Kaedenn> I'm trying to download Ubuntu 10.10 SE, but I'm getting a cap of 80MiB/sec
[02:53] <Kaedenn> Is there a mirror closer to the USA I could use?
[02:53] <Kaedenn> Rather than somewhere in the UK
[02:53] <boota2> Is that even a problem?
[02:53] <boota2> It's pretty good speed.
[02:53] <Kaedenn> Normally I get 6 to 7 times that.
[02:54] <boota2> Yo mean, like 8 megabytes per second isn't enough?
[02:55] <boota2> Oh shi, what's this unit you used.
[02:55] <boota2> mebibyte, lol
[02:55] <Kaedenn> Oh sorry >_<
[02:55] <Kaedenn> KiB.
[02:55] <Kaedenn> 80KB/sec.
[02:56] <boota2> There is option to choose a mirror by hand.
[02:56] <Kaedenn> Gah it's been a long day. >_>. Brain is totally fried, like my server.
[02:56] <boota2> It's ok.
[02:56] <Kaedenn> Oh?
[02:57] <boota2> Oh, no.
[02:57] <boota2> There is't
[02:57] <Kaedenn> Yeah, I didn't see one.
[02:57] <Kaedenn> Well, I restarted the download and now I'm getting like 400KB/sec.
[02:58] <boota2> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+cdmirrors
[02:58] <boota2> There are ones.
[03:15] <Kaedenn> Thanks. It's downloading quite a bit faster.
[03:39] <saliak1> Anyone have experience getting digest authentication to work with apache2.2?  basic authentication works fine for me, but I can't figure out why digest isnt' working (the user/pass i put in the htdigest file doesn't work).  i'm not sure what could be going on.  i have a feeling it has to do with the "realm" and "domain" but finding inconsistent answers across the web
[04:50] <UbuntuRules> can anyone give me an idea of where to look to figure out why SWAT doesn't start
[04:56] <UbuntuRules> Ill take any advice at this time: this has been annoying me for a week now
[05:18] <Kaedenn> So, for some reason my server doesn't want to boot from the Ubuntu Server Edition CD.
[05:18] <Kaedenn> Yet it boots just fine from some Windows CD.
[05:19] <Kaedenn> So, I'm confused. Is there a reason the CD wouldn't be bootable, or is there something I should be doing?
[05:23] <jmarsden> UbuntuRules: Is inetd or xinetd running?
[05:24] <jmarsden> Kaedenn: Have you verified the CD by checksumming it using md5sum?
[05:25] <Kaedenn> I have not, but I installed the image from ubuntu.com. o_O
[05:26] <jmarsden> Kaedenn: How does that provide any check against the burner creating a bad copy of the image??
[05:27] <Kaedenn> True. I'm making a USB startup disk and seeing if that works, though.
[05:28] <jmarsden> Kaedenn: You might want to check https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToMD5SUM and check the CD, too.
[05:29] <Kaedenn> Erm, "Make Startup Disk" isn't listing my USB stick.
[05:57] <Kaedenn> Okay, now for another advancement. When I try to boot from an Ubuntu USB drive, it just says "Boot error", and nothing else.
[05:57] <Kaedenn> That's all that's displayed on the screen.
[05:58] <jmarsden> Kaedenn: Does that same USB stick boot other machines OK?
[05:58] <Kaedenn> Never tried to boot other machines.
[05:59] <jmarsden> Might be worth checking.  It's a quickish way to see if the issue is with the USB stick, or with the one machine you are trying to boot.
[05:59] <Kaedenn> For some reason, booting hangs when trying to boot a CD. I just get some Intel-specific error code "EB" and the CD drive just spins.
[05:59] <jmarsden> Kaedenn: and the md5sum of the CD checked out fine, right?
[06:00] <Kaedenn> Checking that now.
[06:13] <Kaedenn> jmarsden: The checksum passed.
[06:14] <jmarsden> OK.  Good.  Can you boot a different machine from CD or from the USB stick, as a test?
[06:15] <Kaedenn> I don't have any other machine to test that on >_<
[06:16] <jmarsden> What about the one you are using now, the one you are typing on?   Alternatively, you could download a different small Linux ISO and see if you can get the server to boot from *that*.
[06:18] <Kaedenn> I'm downloading a fork of Tiny Core Linux.
[06:18] <jmarsden> Maybe http://distro.ibiblio.org/tinycorelinux/3.x/release/tinycore_3.4.1.iso which is only around 10MB ... OK.
[06:18] <Kaedenn> Actually that one is a quarter of the size.
[06:19] <jmarsden> Unless you are on dialup to your ISP, a 2.5Mb or a 10Mb file will each download in seconds anyway :)
[06:23] <Kaedenn> Doesn't want to boot from that either.
[06:23]  * Kaedenn hits head against desk
[06:23] <jmarsden> How are you creating the burned CDs?
[06:24] <jmarsden> OK.  Can you mount the resulting CDs and see the usual set of files on them?
[06:24] <Kaedenn> Yeap.
[06:24] <Kaedenn> And the md5sum checked out OK from the MD5Sums on launchpad.
[06:24] <Kaedenn> Or, help.ubuntu.com rather.
[06:24] <jmarsden> Sounds like the issue is with the server.  Why not test by booting the machine you are currently typing from from one of the CDs?
[06:24] <jmarsden> If it can boot them, you *know* the CDs are OK.
[06:25] <Kaedenn> I'm almost certain it's the server, as I've tried four boot mediums thusfar and they all didn't work.
[06:26] <Kaedenn> Wait, no, five.
[06:27] <Kaedenn> Two separate Ubuntu 10.10 i386 CDs, one amd64 CD, a TCL CD, and Ubuntu 10.10 on a USB drive created from "Create Startup Disk".
[06:28] <Kaedenn> And I tried the USB stick with both i386 and amd64.
[06:28] <jmarsden> It's your choice.  At least theoretically, you created all of those, so you are a common factor, a common possible source of error... so until you boot successfully from one or more of those boot media, you do not *know* that the issue is with the server.  Seems to me you have spent a lot of time creating boot media rather than testing the first bootable medium is really truly bootable... :)
[06:28] <Kaedenn> Looks like I'm going shopping tomorrow.
[06:28] <Kaedenn> True.
[06:29] <Kaedenn> Hey. PEBKAC. It's my motto. :)
[06:29] <JanC> maybe the server doesn't like isolinux, or vice versa?
[06:29] <Kaedenn> No idea!
[06:29] <Kaedenn> It could boot just fine from some random Windows CD.
[06:30] <JanC> Windows doesn't use isolinux  ;)
[06:31] <JanC> it is possible that there is a bug in the BIOS in a function that the Windows bootloader doesn't use
[06:33] <Kaedenn> Fantastic.
[06:33] <Kaedenn> We'll go shopping tomorrow.
[06:33] <Kaedenn> Maybe we can pick up an AMD64 motherboard and leave all this behind us.
[06:34] <Kaedenn> It's late. I need sleep.
[06:34] <JanC> well, you might want to check if there is no BIOS upgrade available
[06:34] <Kaedenn> jmarsden, JanC, thank you for your help.
[06:34] <jmarsden> You're welcome.  Goodnight.
[06:34] <Kaedenn> I will do that tomorrow morning.
[07:09] <Guest28392> Hi eveyone, Does anyone here know about virtualization?
[07:44] <awanti> Hi. I am using Ubuntu server for practice. But in server arrow keys are not working!
[07:50] <awanti> is any one can solve my problem. plz.
[07:54] <CppIsWeird> i'd like to use aufs and im a little confused as to how to get it on my lucid system.
[07:58] <CppIsWeird> i cant seem to find aufs-tools in the repository
[08:18] <WinstonSmith> CppIsWeird, look at  http://admin.alfalinks.lv/en/content/how-install-fsprotect-ubuntu-1004-lucid
[08:25] <CppIsWeird> if i installed the aufs-tools package, i havent installed aufs right?
[08:26] <CppIsWeird> i installed this https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+package/aufs-tools
[08:26] <jmarsden> CppIsWeird: apt-cache search aufs   # returns fsprotect and live-initramfs   so looking closely at those packages seems appropriate
[08:41] <CppIsWeird> is there any way to get a list of directories/devices involved in a unionfs/aufs?
[09:00] <mrroth> what a simple wiki I can install in ubntu
[09:00] <mrroth> server
[09:27] <lenios> mrothhh, mediawiki?
[09:29] <kerozene> dokuwiki <3
[09:52] <mrroth> hi any one know of a easy to use wiki for ubuntu
[09:54] <lenios> mrothhh, we already gave you 2 wikis
[10:01] <mrroth> thank you
[10:01] <mrroth> bye
[12:39] <jolop> good evening to all. im hoping to get help here, im sure its simple for many of the users here its about ubuntu10.04 server and raid1. fresh install of ubuntu-10.04.1-server-amd64 and i followed the step by step in the https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/advanced-installation.html but on boot im at the busybox mounting errors
[12:40] <ikonia> jolop: I'll pick it up with you in here as you're also asking in #ubuntu
[12:41] <ikonia> jolop: where did you tell it to install the bootloader ?
[12:41] <jolop> ok ikonia it alright here
[12:41] <ikonia> jolop: did you use a seperate boot partition ?
[12:42] <jolop> from the instructions i only did 2 partitions 1st is the swap file 10gb and 2nd for the / partition remaining of the 500gb also set it to bootable
[12:43] <jolop> no i dont think i used a seperate boot partition
[12:43] <ikonia> jolop: ok, personal experience, you'll find it easier to manage with a seperate boot partition, but that's just personal opinion. Where did you tell the installer to put grub ?
[12:43] <jolop> when it asked, it just asked if i wanted to install the grub on the 1st drive i said yes
[12:44] <ikonia> that should be fine.
[12:46] <jolop> mount: mounting /dev/disk/by-uuid/24b8b.... on /root failed: invalid argumant
[12:47] <jolop> thats the firs tline of error
[12:48] <ikonia>  /root ??? that doesn't sound good
[12:49] <ikonia> jolop: boot into the livecd, start the raid array and check the grub config
[12:50] <awanti> arrow keys are not working on Ubuntu server???
[12:51] <jolop> then the next 3 errors are also mount errors just like that but they are realated to the first one not being mounted "/root/dev /root/sys /root/proc
[12:52] <jolop> rebooting to a ubuntu-10.04.1-desktop-amd64 is it ok?
[12:57] <jolop> ikonia: thank yu for helping me, im now at the live cd
[12:57] <ikonia> jolop: start the array
[12:57] <jolop> im sorry but how do i do that?
[12:58] <jolop> fdisk -l i see the two drives i dont see the md0 i created
[13:01] <jolop> im installing mdadm first
[13:01] <jolop> then i'll try to start the array
[13:09] <ikonia> jolop: cool
[13:09] <jolop> ikonia: i think a i have already started the array using "mdadm --assemble --scan" but when i "fdisk -l" there is a note there that "Disk /dev/md0 doesn't contain a valid partition table
[13:09] <ikonia> apologies, I keep leaving my desk
[13:09] <ikonia> jolop: ok, so that's the issue, the install didn't happen to md0
[13:09] <jolop> and "Disk /dev/md1 doesn't contain a valid partition"
[13:10] <ikonia> jolop: something has gone wrong with the install, re-install (you may want to follow my suggestion and use a seperate /boot)
[13:11] <jolop> the reason i did only 2 partitions is because i dont have a guide on slicing the 500GB in preparation for RAID1
[13:11] <ikonia> raid1 has nothing to do with your partition layout
[13:11] <ikonia> slice it as you see fit
[13:12] <jolop> while im onit and your here to help me any suggestion on slicing up a 500gb? im using it basically for webserver and redmine
[13:13] <ikonia>  /boot / /var /home  seems sensible to me
[13:13] <jolop> the guide im following only told of swap partition on the beginning of the disk and "/" partition that is bootable for the rest of the drive
[13:14] <jolop> the guide: https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/advanced-installation.html
[13:14] <ikonia> because it's personal preference how you slice it up
[13:14] <ikonia> that option I've just given you is just my opinion based on experience
[13:17] <jolop> does the postfix configuration is a requirement for the mdadm, i noticed im always selecting no configuration when its asked after installation of mdadm
[13:22] <jolop> im thinking that the mdadm dis not start on installation when i did no configuration on the postfix that it wants to be installed
[13:24] <ikonia> jolop: postfix is only used for sending alert emails of mdadm failure
[13:26] <RoyK> you can probably use any mta, but postfix is the preferred one
[13:26] <jolop> yes but maybe this time i'll try to configure the postfix install
[13:27] <RoyK> jolop: btw, I'd recommend not slicing up too much - just a gig for the /boot, some swap and the rest for the root is good for most installs
[13:28] <RoyK> just use something to monitor disk usage so it doesn't fill up
[13:29] <jolop> another good soul helping me. thanks RoyK! and thank you Ikonia. im currently wiping the disks before fresh install again.
[13:34] <ikonia> gig for /boot ?
[13:34] <ikonia> 250mb is more than enough for /boot
[13:34] <ikonia> RoyK: did you read what he said about running a web server
[13:34] <ikonia> a seperate /var partition is important for logging
[13:39] <RoyK> not really
[13:39] <RoyK> so long as the drives don't fill up, it doesn't matter
[13:39] <oCean> I agree with ikonia there.. I even separate /var/www on my webservers
[13:39] <jolop> 1m done witht he 1st partition for swap, its 10gb at the beginning, just like th eguide said.
[13:39] <RoyK> and the flexibility of having one large partition is way more important than isolating stuff
[13:40] <RoyK> ikonia: 250MB can easily fill up - beleive me
[13:40] <jolop> now i'll crete the /boot partition is this the one i need to mark as bootable?
[13:40] <RoyK> ikonia: and if you have 500 gigs, 1 less won't matter much
[13:40] <oCean> RoyK: do you collect obsolete kernel versions? :s
[13:41] <RoyK> oCean: or do some testing or ...
[13:41] <ikonia> jolop: the installer will mark what needs to be marked
[13:41] <jolop> is the /boot partition needed to be marked as bootable?
[13:41] <ikonia> jolop: trust the installer
[13:41] <ikonia> jolop: don't worry about bootable flag
[13:42] <RoyK> oCean: with automatic updates, /boot can easily fill up if you don't manually remove old kernels - that's why I want some space there - less hassle
[13:42] <RoyK> and with current drive pricing, 1GB isn't really a lot
[13:43]  * RoyK just checked and old box... $ dpkg -l | grep linux-image| wc 23     248    3176
[13:43] <RoyK> 23 friggin' kernels :P
[13:49] <jolop> finished slicing the 500gb, only 3 partitions, im still afraid on more complications swap, /boot and /
[13:50] <jolop> then on the raid1 devices: 0: as swap, 1: as /boot ext4 and 2: / ext4
[14:01] <RoyK> jolop: how much swap/boot?
[14:12] <pmatulis> not much sense in journaling /boot but ok
[14:15] <jolop> finished the install and its the same error
[14:16] <pmatulis> jolop: using lvm?
[14:17] <RoyK> jolop: what error?
[14:17] <jolop> no lvm
[14:17] <pmatulis> jolop: how many disks do you have?
[14:18] <RoyK> iirc he said one 500GB drive
[14:18] <pmatulis> raid1 with one disk?
[14:18] <jolop> mount error somethign like cant mount /root to /dev/by-uuid-.....
[14:19] <jolop> raid1 2 500gb
[14:19] <RoyK> ok
[14:19] <RoyK> linux software raid?
[14:20] <jolop> ubuntu software raid. following the https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/advanced-installation.html
[14:20] <jolop> im using ubuntu-10.04.1-server-amd64, hp proliant ml110, 2x500gb hdd, 4gm ram
[14:35] <gobbe> what does your /boot/grub/grub.cfg say, and sudo fdisk -l, upload those to pastebin
[14:39] <ikonia> jolop: do what you did before, boot from the livecd, start the array and see if you can mount it
[14:39] <ikonia> jolop: it is pointless doing anything else until you know the array is valid and contains data
[16:13] <audrey> hello?
[16:14] <pmatulis> hello
[16:14] <audrey> does anyone know of a way to send emails using postfix, when the ISP has blocked port 25?
[16:14] <audrey> is the only way to use the isp's relay?
[16:15] <pmatulis> audrey: you're just sending emails?
[16:15] <audrey> well, it seems to receive emails just fine
[16:16] <audrey> but I can't send any emails unless they're internal
[16:16] <pmatulis> audrey: so, yes, use your isp's smtp server as a relay
[16:16] <audrey> I'm pretty sure (from telnetting) that port 25 is blocked
[16:17] <audrey> is that the only way?
[16:17] <audrey> I'm trying to make it as autonomous as possible (I realise I'm at the isp's mercy anyway)
[16:18] <compdoc> sending isnt usually the problem
[16:18] <compdoc> they dont block 25 outgoing
[16:18] <audrey> really? what could be the problem then?
[16:18] <pmatulis> compdoc: many isp's do not allow outgoing port 25 unless it's to their server
[16:18] <audrey> I assumed it was an anti-spam thing
[16:18] <pmatulis> this is very common
[16:18] <compdoc> well, not all do
[16:19] <audrey> I'm with o2
[16:19] <audrey> in the uk
[16:19] <audrey> they *have* an smtp relay, I just don't want to use it if I don't have to
[16:19] <pmatulis> compdoc: he said he can receive email but cannot send. the only way is to use the isp's smtp server
[16:20] <compdoc> yes
[16:20] <compdoc> Ive seen that too
[16:20] <pmatulis> unless his configuration is screwed up.  but we can only go by what he's telling us
[16:20] <compdoc> so use their outgoing - its not a big deal
[16:20] <mattt> all your mail are belong to o2
[16:21] <audrey> thanks mattt, that's actually quite helpful. I suspected as much. Hence encryption? But how do I make it more stable?
[16:21] <compdoc> I use comcast's outgoing because their reverse dns works, and sites like yahoo, etc. wont block
[16:21] <mattt> audrey: if you have another mail server outside of the o2 network, open up port 587 and use that?
[16:22] <KurtKraut> audrey, in Brazil all ISPs blocked together port 25 due SPAM. There is probably an extensive documentation in how to deal with that.
[16:22] <compdoc> there are mail hop outbound services
[16:22] <compdoc> costs a little extra
[16:22] <audrey> compdoc: is comcast your isp?
[16:22] <compdoc> yes
[16:22] <mattt> audrey: i use be in uk, they do same thing
[16:23] <pmatulis> what would be gained by piping all mail to an isp's server or some other organization's server?
[16:23] <compdoc> I can telnet mail servers on port 25 - but I cant receive on 25
[16:24] <compdoc> pmatulis, theres a few benefits
[16:24] <audrey> ok, so use o2 smtp relay, use encryption, and be ready to link to a second server outside o2.
[16:25] <audrey> ?
[16:25] <mattt> let'er rip
[16:25] <compdoc> encription? youre afraid theyre reading your mail?
[16:25] <audrey> well, They always do.  :)
[16:26] <mattt> unlikely, but possible :D
[16:28] <audrey> Could I not just send mail directly on port 587? What are the likely problems with doing that?
[16:29] <audrey> and, indeed, how would you do that in postfix?
[16:29] <compdoc> unless youre plotting to take over o2, I doubt they will care what you say
[16:29] <compdoc> not all mail servers in the world will accept mail on 587, I dont think
[16:30] <audrey> I suppose it would defeat the point of blocking 25
[16:30] <pmatulis> audrey: you need to first figure out what you want to achieve.  from what i'm reading, you don't know
[16:30] <mattt> audrey: if you have a relay server that accepts mail on port 587, that'd work
[16:30] <mattt> you could relay through it
[16:30] <audrey> ah, ok.
[16:31] <RoyK> you need a relay if the ISP blocks port 25
[16:31]  * RoyK has a private server for that sort of things :P
[16:31] <pmatulis> audrey: you can make your server external to your isp listen on *any* port
[16:31] <mattt> yeah, i use my vps for that sort of thing
[16:32] <RoyK> how much do you pay for a small vps these days?
[16:32] <pmatulis> audrey: and "encryption" only makes sense when authenticating to a mail server that you control
[16:32] <audrey> is there a recommended way of switching relays, or queueing them, so that it uses the backup server if the o2 one stops relaying?
[16:32] <pmatulis> and nothing else
[16:32] <mattt> RoyK: w/ minimal b/w, 15 a month or so?
[16:33] <mattt> RoyK: USD that is
[16:33] <audrey> pmatulis: I meant PGP etc
[16:33] <pmatulis> audrey: ok
[16:34] <RoyK> mattt: wouldn't an EC2 VM from amazon be cheaper than that?
[16:34] <RoyK> for just an MTA, I mean
[16:35] <audrey> is there a recommended way of switching relays, or queueing them, so that it uses the backup server if the o2 one stops relaying? using postfix
[16:36] <mattt> RoyK: ah, potentially ... don't use EC2 myself
[16:36] <mattt> audrey: that question doesn't make much sense
[16:37] <RoyK> audrey: normally you have two or more MX records for a domain, with different priority/cost, which makes the email sent to the primary server, but falling back to the secondary server/MX if the primary can't be contacted
[16:38] <audrey> well, in my /var/log/mail I can see if a message didn't get sent (eg if o2 stops relaying), so is there a way of sending it via a secondary server if o2 fails?
[16:38] <audrey> royk: isn't that for incoming mail?
[16:38] <RoyK> er.. yes
[16:39] <RoyK> why shouldn't outgoing mail work?
[16:39] <mattt> audrey: what is sending it through o2?  a mail server or something else?
[16:39] <RoyK> except if the ISP blocks port 25, that is
[16:39] <audrey> royk: I'm recieving mail fine, I think o2 isp are blocking port 25 outgoing except to their server
[16:39] <mattt> audrey: they are, most ISPs do that
[16:40] <mattt> audrey: their mail server may start blocking connections from you if you're abusing their system btw
[16:40] <audrey> mattt: I'm not sure yet. I was going to try this: http://www.zimbra.com/forums/installation/1538-sending-mail-using-your-isp-relay-host.html
[16:41] <audrey> yeah. I don't think I'll be spamming anyone though...
[16:41] <mattt> you sure?  :D
[16:41] <mattt> audrey: postfix should retry if it can't relay the message through o2
[16:41] <mattt> up to a certain # of days, then it'll drop the msg
[16:41] <audrey> I wouldn't know where to start, except maybe lol-spam :D
[16:42] <RoyK> mattt: dpkg-reconfigure postfix
[16:42] <audrey> yeah, but the motivation is to be as autonomous as possible (which I realise in this case is a lost cause)
[16:45] <mattt> audrey: may want to look at something like a vps then
[16:45] <RoyK> http://aws.amazon.com/free/ <-- looks good :)
[16:46] <audrey> lol, thanks. But how do you trust your vps host not to have a snoop-hypervisor?
[16:48] <mattt> audrey: dude, you're right paranoid :D
[16:48] <audrey> yeah, I know :D
[16:48] <audrey> but if They can boot Wikileaks, They can boot me
[16:48] <RoyK> audrey: it's a matter of trust, or money, if you're paranoid, get your own gear and a good internet connection
[16:49] <audrey> royk: that's been my approach. What exactly makes a connection "good"?
[16:49] <audrey> not port-blocking :)
[16:51] <RoyK> well, a 100Mbps link is quite good
[16:51] <audrey> I'm guessing that not having an isp (or being your own isp), even if it were possible, wouldn't be exactly easy
[16:51] <RoyK> audrey: if you're located in the US or China or Iran or something, they have global sniffing in the backbone anyway
[16:52] <audrey> Royk: ORLY? but surely that only picks up on unencrypted transmissions?
[16:53] <RoyK> audrey: it's still pretty hard to break RSA, yes
[16:53] <audrey> :) AFAWK
[16:54] <audrey> it's a fairly endless spiral, this distrust
[16:54] <RoyK> but I somewhat think China is trying to break that with that new supercomputer of GPus
[16:56] <audrey> ok, thanks guys
[16:56] <audrey> ttyl
[17:13] <shauno> does ufw only store rules in /etc/ufw? I seem to be missing something
[17:16] <thesheff17> shauno: ufw is actually built on top of iptables.
[17:16] <compdoc> I think it creates iptables rules and stores them there
[17:16] <compdoc> I like it
[17:17] <compdoc> theres a gufw if you have a desktop. it works well
[17:17] <compdoc> where does iptables store rules between boots?
[17:21] <shauno> I think that's what I'm looking for .. they must persist on disk somewhere between boots
[17:22] <thesheff17> shauno: just doing ufw enable will persist through reboots
[17:22] <shauno> but I'm now discovering the host doesn't have ipt_MASQUERADE available, which is more likely to be why copying rulesets across didn't work
[19:58] <pehden> can some one ping pehden.net
[19:58] <pehden> then www.pehden.net
[19:58] <pehden> tell me if both fail
[19:58] <monteith> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/
[20:00] <pehden> monteith: thanks that will do it
[20:01] <pehden> monteith: well actually that doesnt work
[20:02] <pehden> my browser redirects to www.pehden.net
[20:05] <pehden> and then my other browser says not found
[20:05] <pehden> host pehden.net
[20:05] <pehden> pehden.net mail is handled by 1 pehden.net.
[20:06] <pehden> but www.pehden.net resovles my ip
[20:21] <EvilPhoenix> pehden:  then its DNS issues
[20:21] <EvilPhoenix> oh
[20:21] <EvilPhoenix> btw
[20:22] <EvilPhoenix> pehden:   pehden.net. CNAME pehden.ath.cx.   ;  www.pehden.net. CNAME pehden.ath.cx.   ;  pehden.ath.cx. A <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:22] <EvilPhoenix> that's the DNS entries
[20:22] <EvilPhoenix> i omitted a duplicate entry
[20:22] <EvilPhoenix> pehden:  its likely not a dns issue then, rather an issue with your webserver
[20:22] <EvilPhoenix> and its configuration
[20:23] <EvilPhoenix> oh wait, you're having issues with multiple browsers?
[20:23] <EvilPhoenix> what DNS servers are those systems using?
[20:26] <EvilPhoenix> actually i should beasking what browsers
[20:26] <EvilPhoenix> :p
[20:29] <pehden> thats what i was thinking
[20:29] <pehden> ff
[20:29] <pehden> and arora
[20:30] <pehden> with ff pehden.net redirects to the www.pehden    but in arora pehden.net fails
[20:30] <pehden> due to time out
[23:23] <latenite> Hi folks, I have a connection on my netstatlist that I would like to know more of. Its line 6 and 14. How do I find out what service is on that port? http://pastebin.com/Xcqm4JAB
[23:25] <Pici> latenite: Run netstat with sudo and be sure to include the -p switch
[23:25] <Pici> That should tell you the process
[23:27] <latenite> Pici, nice flag thanks. Sadly the data I pasted is from yesterday. Is there still a way to find out? today it looks like that http://pastebin.com/RDBYErT0
[23:30] <Pici> latenite: I'd be completely guessing, but it looks like it *might& be skype, the port numbers are in similar locations and a quick search reveals that skype doesn;t use any specific preset ports.
[23:33] <latenite> yeah maybe :) hey thanks a lot :)
[23:33] <Pici> np


[00:25] <ali1234> i just discovered final fantasy 7 has a large mod community
[00:26] <ali1234> trouble is it's all for the PC version so unlikely to work correctly in wine
[00:38] <hamitron> don't you run the PC version in wine?
[00:42] <ali1234> the PC version was famous for being extremely crashy to start with
[00:42] <ali1234> so i never tried it
[00:42] <ali1234> i only own the playstation version anyway
[00:43] <hamitron> heh, I remember it crashing on me when a friend lent me it
[00:43] <hamitron> so never bothered trying it
[00:43] <hamitron> :)
[00:44] <ali1234> how far did you get before it crashed?
[00:44] <hamitron> it never started
[00:44] <hamitron> :/
[00:44] <ali1234> i've completed it in pcsx or epsxe
[00:44] <ali1234> they're both basically perfect now
[00:45] <hamitron> nice
[00:45] <ali1234> you do have to use software graphics though
[00:45] <hamitron> I keep meaning to try PSX emulators a go sometime again
[00:45] <hamitron> as it is the last console I owned, so have a few games I used to love
[00:45] <hamitron> :)
[00:46] <ali1234> soul blade and puzzle fighter were the only two other games i had
[00:47] <ali1234> well, the only ones i remember
[00:48] <directhex> last psx emulator was fine with the correct plugins
[00:48] <ali1234> yeah
[00:48] <directhex> most modern emulators use a plugin system for audio, video, and controller support
[00:49] <directhex> sadly an open-source emulator may be best served by closed source windows-only plugins
[00:49] <ali1234> i never had much luck with the GPU accelerated plugins
[00:49] <ali1234> and the software graphics is pretty much pixel accurate and runs at full speed anyway
[00:50] <ali1234> and the high res you get fromGPU plugins doesn't look that good anyway, cos the models aren't good enough
[00:53] <ali1234> anyway, if you only play one FF game, it should be 7, cos it's the best one.
[00:58] <directhex> i've only ever half finished one FF game, that's the most i've done with the franchise
[01:00] <ali1234> i've only finished 7
[01:01] <ali1234> i nearly finished 9 then i hit a showstopper bug in pcsx. it got fixed months later but by then i forgot about it
[01:02] <ali1234> but 7 stands out because of the ways it subverts the standard plot mechanic in these games
[01:05] <Azelphur> directhex: I'm in the steam Linux beta now
[01:05] <Azelphur> :D
[01:05] <ali1234> how'd you manage that?
[01:05] <directhex> Azelphur, you didn't get your buddy directhex in? :'(
[01:05] <Azelphur> I know valve people
[01:05] <Azelphur> directhex: sorry, that'd be pushing it :P
[01:06] <directhex> ali1234, i half finished 6, then quit when i hit an unfinishable blocker based on design flaws
[01:06] <ali1234> wow, really? a bug in the actual game?
[01:06]  * Azelphur is installing tf2
[01:07] <ali1234> do tell. cos that's rare for an oldschool console game. unless it was the recent remake i guess...
[01:12] <directhex> one of the characters has a special skill where they throw an inventory item at the enemy
[01:12] <ali1234> you threw an important key item at the enemy?
[01:12] <directhex> at one stage in the game, you split into several groups. managed to throw a plot-essential item from a different group when playing as the group with the tosspot in
[01:13] <directhex> multiple groups; shared inventory :p
[01:13] <Azelphur> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/2012/November/2012-11-07-011145_1000x660_scrot.png \o/
[01:13] <ali1234> key items usually go in a different inventory section, they do in 7, 8, 9 anyway. and you can't use them anywhere except where they are needed
[01:14] <ali1234> but yeah that is a bit bad
[01:22] <ali1234> whenever i play a RPG that has ethers for restoring MP i always think of that scene in fear and loathing in las vegas
[01:33] <directhex> squaresoft peaked when they shipped chrono trigger
[01:33] <ali1234> yes
[04:29] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Stuart Langridge] Purple map, 2012 edition - http://kryogenix.org/days/2012/11/07/purple-map-2012-edition
[08:21] <popey> morning all
[08:22] <theopensourcerer> Morning all. Glas that the US managed to not elect Romney.
[08:23] <theopensourcerer> \Glad
[08:23] <Azelphur> popey: hi, I got in the Linux beta :D
[08:23]  * Azelphur is happy now
[08:24] <popey> :)
[08:24] <popey> ditto theopensourcerer
[08:24] <Azelphur> popey: you have dual screen right?
[08:25] <popey> ya
[08:25] <Azelphur> do you get this issue with big picture mode? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/2012/November/2012-11-07-063029_5120x1440_scrot.png
[08:26] <popey> i have seen that in the past, yes
[08:26] <popey> not got two screens on this machine right now
[08:27] <Azelphur> fun, yea I've seen it on a few things before, I can't run games in full screen either, it's not a major deal though as noborder and windowed mode work fine
[08:27] <Azelphur> flash player did that for ages, but recently it got fixed
[09:13] <MooDoo> morning all
[09:14] <diplo> Morning all
[09:28] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:34] <dwatkins> hiya brobostigon
[09:35] <brobostigon> morning dwatkins
[09:40] <dwatkins> I'm in a good mood today, a certain country didn't destroy my faith in humanity
[09:42] <brobostigon> :)
[09:42] <brobostigon> yes, obama won.
[09:47] <danfish> morning
[09:47] <brobostigon> morning danfish
[09:47] <danfish> stayed up late watching the election. Feel somewhat tired today
[09:48] <danfish> anyone using amazon glacier with ubuntu?
[10:05] <dwatkins> looks handy, but I have about 500 GB to backup, which might take a while at 1 MBit.
[10:08] <JamesTait> Good morning all! :)
[10:09] <brobostigon> morning JamesTait :)
[11:08] <diplo> Blimey dead in 'ere today
[11:09] <SuperMatt> everyone is playing with the steam beta
[11:11] <drhodesmumby> I'm not. D:
[11:11] <SuperMatt> well maybe you should
[11:11] <SuperMatt> I'm waiting for my lunch break
[11:11] <diplo> I'm not :(
[11:12] <diplo> I was away at sign up
[11:12] <SuperMatt> you still can fill in the survey
[11:12] <SuperMatt> and you'll still be in with a chance in the next round
[11:13] <SuperMatt> not that it matters because it appears anyone can use it anyway
[11:13] <diplo> yeah just read that
[11:13] <drhodesmumby> I'm not even in Linux at the moment. :-(
[11:13] <diplo> Will take a look for the survey later
[11:16] <diplo> Oooh MS are closing msn messenger next year, I totally missed that peice of news
[11:17] <popey> you would have known this if you'd listened to UUPC last night :D
[11:17] <popey> first with all the news :)
[11:17] <popey> "first"
[11:18] <diplo> I'm behind with uupc by about 6-7 episodes!
[11:18] <SuperMatt> I'm glad they're switching to skype really
[11:18] <popey> gosh
[11:18] <SuperMatt> finally, we can all talk cross platform
[11:18] <Dave2> It's disappointing, it will be one less protocol for people to not talk to me on
[11:18] <diplo> Actually let me correct that, I haven't watched/listened to ANY podcasts in a fair few months
[11:18] <Dave2> SuperMatt: MSN had an XMPP interface, Skype does not
[11:18] <SuperMatt> I know, but at least now we have an app which is open source form the off
[11:18] <diplo> I wish all my friends would use google chat or something
[11:19] <SuperMatt> wait
[11:19] <SuperMatt> not open source
[11:19] <SuperMatt> I mean cross platform
[11:19] <Dave2> But there are no third party clients that can properly talk to Skype, as far as I'm aware.
[11:19] <Dave2> There are loads that can talk to MSN.
[11:19] <AlanBell> open protocols > cross platform apps
[11:19] <diplo> ejabberd++ :)
[11:20] <diplo> Been playing with that recently to add it into our ERP system
[11:20] <Dave2> The fact that there's a native client is nice, but it's been neglected, and things like bitlbee have to rely on some Skype binary
[11:20]  * AlanBell logs into skype for the first time this month
[11:20] <dwatkins> I can't remember the last time I used Skype.
[11:20] <AlanBell> nobody ever contacts me on it
[11:21] <Dave2> I'm normally signed in
[11:21] <Dave2> (Not the same as using it though.)
[11:21] <AlanBell> it was popular 5 years ago
[11:21] <popey>   PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
[11:21] <popey>  6145 alan      20   0  737m 176m  22m R   30  2.2  86:28.49 chromium-browse
[11:21] <popey> :(
[11:21] <dwatkins> I disabled it because of the constant login and logout messages I was seeing.
[11:21] <AlanBell> well, it is probably still popular. Maybe *I* was popular 5 years ago.
[11:22]  * Dave2 has never used Skype all that much
[11:23] <popey> dwatkins, i turn those off
[11:23] <dwatkins> I was just thinking there should be an option for that, popey
[11:24] <popey> its the first thing I disable
[11:26] <Daviey> I used to use skype quite heavily in 2003-2005?
[11:26] <diplo> We used to use it for work webcam meetings but been using hangouts more recently as half of us use linux
[11:28] <SuperMatt> I'd quite like everyone to switch to google talk too :(
[11:29] <dwatkins> I use google talk pretty much exclusively, if people aren't on it, they simply can't chat to me :)
[11:30] <drhodesmumby> I switch between Google Talk and Skype, although Talk's increasing.
[11:31] <AlanBell> Daviey: yeah, around that time it was the first thing that did voip and video reliably across assorted network configurations
[11:37] <Daviey> right
[13:52] <theopensourcerer> This looks fun: http://gamelab.mit.edu/games/a-slower-speed-of-light/ Shame it's only on Windows/MAC
[13:58] <mgdm> s/MAC/Mac/
[14:01] <directhex> theopensourcerer, unity3d. they could rebuild in unity 4 & ship a linux binary if they wanted to
[14:01] <dogmatic69> Chrome memory usage: 1.7GB :/
[14:02] <awilkins> Using memory is good, as long as you have some left
[14:02] <awilkins> Using less is better, true
[14:03] <awilkins> But not if it means things are slower
[14:05] <mungojerry> chrome has killed my DE many times
[14:05] <mungojerry> in fact, i think it's why i've had to switch to lxde
[14:05] <awilkins> Are we talking Chrome or Chromium?
[14:05] <mungojerry> on a fast and RAMified machine
[14:05] <mungojerry> same probs with either
[14:05] <awilkins> I don't seem to have that problem (quad core i7, 8GB of RAM)
[14:06] <awilkins> Most of my RAM consumption comes from Eclipse :-(
[14:06] <mungojerry> tend to have around 30-40 tabs
[14:07] <mungojerry> and use some IBM stuff
[14:07] <SuperMatt> I can't stand to have that many
[14:07] <mungojerry> it's work
[14:07] <mungojerry> (the nature of my) work
[14:08] <SuperMatt> I think the most I ever have open would be about 15, but I tend to cull about every hour or so
[14:08] <mungojerry> see this? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ActiveDirectory
[14:09] <SuperMatt> I can, yes
[14:09] <awilkins> Yeah, Ubuntu should aim for that too
[14:09] <mungojerry> big time
[14:09] <SuperMatt> agreed
[14:09] <awilkins> The other thing it needs to sort out is HTTP proxy support
[14:09] <awilkins> I have an idea for that
[14:10] <SuperMatt> there should come a point when we can give users a choice over which OS they want, and it doesn't matter what the servers are running
[14:10] <awilkins> Many corporate networks use PAC scripts but most apps besides browsers can't understand them
[14:11] <awilkins> So I reckon the OS should run a proxy, and if you provide a PAC script, it configures that proxy, and everything else can just use dumb HTTP through it
[14:11] <popey> theopensourcerer, it almost works in wine :)
[14:12] <awilkins> This way you could use ISA with NTLM / SSPI or SSH + SOCKS or whatever and everything would work
[14:12] <popey> there's an app that does that already
[14:12] <awilkins> I don't think even Empathy works with PAC scripts (directing to SOCKS) and that's a core app - I've installed Pidgin just so I can run it through tsocks
[14:12] <awilkins> popey, Are you thinking of ntlmaps?
[14:12] <awilkins> Python program
[14:12] <popey> ya
[14:12] <popey> http://ntlmaps.sourceforge.net/
[14:13] <popey> well, does part of it
[14:13] <awilkins> I use it on occasion but it's not perfect
[14:13] <awilkins> Everything should be able to use your global proxy config
[14:13] <popey> directhex, how did you know it was made with Unity 3D?
[14:13] <awilkins> But until everything can use a PAC script, that won't happen, because it just hands the PAC URL to applications if it's configured
[14:14] <awilkins> Much better for the OS to take the responsibility of interpreting PAC scripts and authentication, and  provide a dumb HTTP proxy across a local socket for apps to use, or even make it transparent for those apps that don't understand proxies at all
[14:27] <BigRedS> awilkins: but everything should also be able to have its own
[14:28] <awilkins> It's own config? It's own proxy arrangements?
[14:28] <BigRedS> yeah
[14:29] <BigRedS> I'm not sure of context here, but it infurates me that so much these days requires that I set up a global proxy
[14:29] <awilkins> BigRedS, Well, that would be doable, most things that are aware of proxies and aware that the OS has proxy settings also have a manual option
[14:29] <awilkins> On the flipside, a lot of programs are not aware of proxies, and of those that are, only a subset understand proxies other than HTTP, or PAC scripts
[14:30] <awilkins> e.g. Ubuntu One - you'd think it was a core, flagship product, but I gave up on it and stuck with Dropbox because it doesn't understand PAC scripts or SOCKS proxies.
[14:30] <awilkins> Empathy, likewise, doesn't work with a PAC script
[14:31] <awilkins> So I install Pidgin and run it using tsocks
[14:31] <ali1234> empathy doesn't support proxies at all
[14:31] <ali1234> pidgin doesn't need tsocks - it has socks support built in
[14:31] <awilkins> All the default apps that communicate via a network should work with all the possible proxy configurations you can feed into the OS proxy settings
[14:31] <awilkins> Including SOCKS and PAC
[14:31] <ali1234> probably doesn't support PAC but then i don't know what that is
[14:32] <ali1234> is PAC like internet explorer automatic proxy config?
[14:32] <awilkins> It's basically Javascript with a set library that lets you discover proxy config
[14:32] <ali1234> anyway, i use pidgin because of socks5 proxy support that i use with ssh
[14:32] <awilkins> IE auto proxy config is just "get me a PAC script from http://wpad/wpad.dat and configure the output from it"
[14:33] <awilkins> PAC was originally a Netscape thing
[14:34] <awilkins> One problem is that if you configure a PAC script as your proxy config it just hands the URL to the application when it asks for proxy config. If your app doesn't understand how to run Javascript PAC files, tough luck
[14:35] <awilkins> Makes sense to take that and get the OS to do it and just return the result
[14:35] <awilkins> But! PAC scripts are also used for load balancing. So makes even more sense to get the OS to run it's own proxy, and tell apps to use that, and the proxy runs the PAC script
[14:36] <awilkins> And even better, if you have an app that i) doesn't do proxies or ii) doesn't understand all proxy types or iii ) Doesn't do the kind of auth the proxy demands
[14:36] <awilkins> The OS proxy takes care of that and you just ask for sockets normally and it redirects them
[14:37] <awilkins> Like tsocks, but more
[14:37] <awilkins> Roll in modules for things like NTLM / SSPI (windows proxy auth) etc.
[14:37] <awilkins> Everything benefits, Empathy works, Ubuntu One works, Ubuntu works much better in a corporate environment, 4) Profit, etc
[14:40] <awilkins> With that kind of setup, Ubuntu One would beat Dropbox for ease of use, because Dropbox doesn't understand PAC scripts (despite there being Python libraries available for it and AFAIK the Dropbox client is written in Python)
[14:40] <ali1234> i don't want every piece of software to use the proxy
[14:41] <ali1234> i only want software which is blocked by a firewall to use it
[14:41] <awilkins> ali1234, So you make it configurable on a per-app basis - we're having to mess with things to get them to use the proxy, so turn off the messing otherwise
[14:42] <awilkins> Or write a PAC script that returns "DIRECT" for certain ports and addresses
[14:42] <awilkins> (and presumably have a wee graphical widget for writing PAC scripts)
[14:42] <ali1234> the thing is it's already configurable on a per-app basis, and look how well that works
[14:42] <ali1234> i do like the idea of configuring proxy on a per port basis, almost firewall style but in reverse
[14:42] <awilkins> ali1234, The problem isn't the apps that DO have proxy config, it's the ones that lack features
[14:42] <awilkins> LIke even knowing about proxies at all
[14:43] <awilkins> Or not supporting SOCKS
[14:43] <ali1234> yeah, or the feature to tell it NOT to use the proxy
[14:43] <awilkins> ali1234, That would be part of the OS proxy feature
[14:43] <awilkins> ali1234, I'm thinking you'd only turn it on for things that don't have a "respect the OS proxy" setting in the first place
[14:45] <ali1234> sounds complicted
[14:46] <awilkins> I think it reduces the global level of complexity - no more separate config for all those apps, no more pestering them with bug fixes to include SOCKS support
[14:46] <awilkins> No more apps that don't work because they don't grok PAC scripts and you have to read it and configure them manually and then change it when you move offices
[14:48] <ali1234> it puts all the complexity in one place
[14:49] <ali1234> there is infact already software that does this
[14:50] <ali1234> it's a socket wrapper library. when program asks for a socket it transparently sends it through the proxy you configured
[14:50] <awilkins> ali1234, Yup, there are things like ntlmaps that will do Windows proxy auth for you and be a local proxy (but no PAC scripts)
[14:50] <awilkins> I think what it lacks is a single, standard, integrated version that works with the rest of the desktop platform
[14:51] <awilkins> Integration and simplicity is one of the big things that Microsoft scores points on
[14:51] <awilkins> And Apple
[14:52] <ali1234> lol
[14:52] <awilkins> Every time you go "Ah, but for THIS app, you do THIS" to a newbie, their affection for Linux dies inside a little
[14:52] <ali1234> ever tried to connect an apple machine to a corporate VPN?
[14:52] <awilkins> ali1234, Ok, I didn't mean specifically on proxy support for Apple
[14:52] <ali1234> that simplicity is not a positive aspect
[14:52] <awilkins> I just meant the "just works" impression you get from their products
[14:52] <ali1234> i've never got that impression
[14:52] <awilkins> (which I don't own or use, so I could be wrong)
[14:53] <ali1234> i get the impression it "just works" as long as all you want to do is hand more money over to apple
[14:53] <AlanBell> they are just surrounded by a reality distortion field
[14:53] <ali1234> other than that it is basically designed to fail
[14:53] <awilkins> Well, it may just be the way they sell them, but it's obviously attractive or it wouldn't sell :-)
[14:54] <awilkins> Arrgh, why does the VPN configuration forget my group password even though it's in the configuration entry?
[14:54] <ali1234> i dunno. ever tried to connect a windows 8 machine to a VPN btw?
[14:54] <awilkins> Seems to be a regression of a bug from 2007 *headdesk*
[14:54] <ali1234> they made the wizard really hard to find
[14:55] <awilkins> ali1234, No, we have Cisco VPN
[14:55] <ali1234> if you search in the metro thing you won't find it
[14:55] <awilkins> ali1234, And we're just migrating to Win7 at present, so most of us are still on XP
[14:55] <ali1234> you have to search for control panel first and then go through the old style interface
[14:57] <ali1234> i only work with small businesses
[14:57] <awilkins> I work for the NHS
[14:57] <awilkins> The central IT project
[14:57] <awilkins> We only ditched IE6 this year
[14:57] <ali1234> businesses with <20 people where they use whatever software came with the laptop they each personally decided to buy
[14:58] <awilkins> Heh, we have a huge IT department that wants us to move to a model where we only install software they approve of
[14:58] <ali1234> you have it easy with your centrally managed systems
[14:58] <awilkins> And getting a new app approved costs £2,000
[14:58] <ali1234> BYOD is a PITA
[14:59] <ali1234> i have to learn everything
[14:59] <ali1234> i can't say "sorry that's not supported"
[14:59] <awilkins> Agreed, but locked-down-to-the-max is really counter-innovative
[14:59] <awilkins> Want to try processing your data with Cygwin and some shell scripts / awk / grep / sed? Sorry, you're not allowed Cygwin.
[15:00] <ali1234> ha
[15:00] <ali1234> i wish the people i support even knew what cygwin was
[15:00] <awilkins> I work in stealth mode - because my Linux system isn't detectable by their Windows management software, it doesn't exists.
[15:00] <ali1234> normally i get requests like "dave has made this cool excel spreadsheet and it doesn't work on my mac, can you convert it?"
[15:01] <awilkins> "No, do it as a LibreOffice Calc sheet and then it will work on either" probably isn't a palatable answer
[15:01] <ali1234> not at all
[15:01] <awilkins> Bloody VBA
[15:01] <awilkins> *spit*
[15:02] <ali1234> it's not even the VBA
[15:02] <awilkins> As the technical crew, we get all the VBA / Access / Excel abominations that people think up delivered to our door in a basket with a note that says "Please will you care for this application and raise it as your own"
[15:02] <awilkins> Sharepoint *spit*
[15:03] <awilkins> Whoever thought up the great idea to make Sharepoint support Access as a front end should be killed.
[15:03] <awilkins> Sharepoint data tables have one numeric format, and it's floating point.
[15:03] <awilkins> Foreign keys - what's that??
[15:03] <ali1234> yeah  i don't even have to deal with that because none of the companies i have worked for has even had a central server of any kind
[15:04] <ali1234> unless you count their hosted email
[15:04] <ali1234> which they very much use as a file sharing platform
[15:05] <ali1234> passing around a word document with annotations is commonplace
[15:05] <awilkins> Yup
[15:05] <awilkins> I hate that
[15:05] <ali1234> then they send it to me and i ruin it by saving it in open office. lol
[15:05] <awilkins> As soon as you mail documents around, it's a revision control nightmare
[15:05] <ali1234> not to worry, they have 1,000,000 slightly different copies attached to various emails
[15:06] <awilkins> And they try and design things this way *sob*
[15:06] <ali1234> well the alternative is to try to coral all their different platforms onto a VPN or something
[15:06] <ali1234> with zero budget of course
[15:07] <ali1234> the good side of this is they are very receptive to open source solutions
[15:09] <ali1234> as long as they don't have to actually use or know about them, basically
[15:10] <ali1234> so a linux VPN + fileserver is fine, as long as it works with every version of windows ever made, and mac, and all smartphones and tablets
[15:11] <ali1234> one good thing about this model is then never get a total system outage due to a virus on the network
[15:11] <ali1234> it's so mixed that something always keeps working
[15:12] <awilkins> Heheh
[15:12] <ali1234> but the downside is you can never be sure what will be working today
[15:12] <awilkins> Whereas we get stupid-assed decisions like "Hey, lets use Exchange as an email server for a million users!"
[15:12] <ali1234> yeah they loooooove exchange
[15:13] <ali1234> cos it works everywhere
[15:13] <awilkins> Mail quotas numbered in megabytes are so last century.
[15:13] <ali1234> but with few users it's not a probleem
[15:13] <ali1234> and it's hosted anyway so even if it was it would be someone else's problem
[15:14] <awilkins> Well, we have the new cabinet office directive to consider OSS solutions wherever possible and justify why we are not using them now
[15:14] <awilkins> Well, open data standards
[15:16] <awilkins> Heck , they even published the document as ODT (alongside Word Doc and PDF)
[15:16] <awilkins> http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/sites/default/files/resources/Open-Standards-Principles-FINAL.odt
[15:16] <awilkins> Notable that it's the smallest file
[15:17] <ali1234> no plain text?
[15:17] <ali1234> html?
[15:17] <awilkins> No
[15:17] <ali1234> boo
[15:20] <twager> msg NickServ identify twager
[15:20] <SuperMatt> oops
[15:21] <SuperMatt> you might want to change your password
[15:21] <ali1234> and also get an irc client that understands services
[15:21] <mungojerry> hunter2
[15:22] <popey> :)
[15:25] <BigRedS> What do people use for distributed and offline-accessible todo lists? I've been using tomboy/sparkleshare for a while, but I seem to spend more time making it resemble a todo list than I do getting stuff done
[15:25] <mungojerry> i use tomboy, but there's GTG ?
[15:25]  * popey uses tomboy
[15:26]  * BigRedS looks at GTG
[15:26] <ali1234> "a notepad and pencil"
[15:27] <BigRedS> yeah, it got wet
[15:27] <mungojerry> http://gtg.fritalk.com/
[15:27] <BigRedS> getting a new one might turn out to be simplest...
[15:27] <ali1234> i'm actually using tinyissue for this
[15:27] <ali1234> https://github.com/mikelbring/tinyissue
[15:27] <ali1234> it really is tiny
[15:28] <ali1234> also i sent in a patch and it was accepted in under 10 minutes
[15:28] <BigRedS> Oooh
[15:28] <BigRedS> But I'd like an easily-offline-accessible one
[15:29] <mungojerry> android phone?
[15:29] <ali1234> well offline *or* distributed. pick one
[15:29] <BigRedS> yeah, but that's still online  :)
[15:29] <BigRedS> I want both! Basically, Tomboy but with priority/ordering capabilities
[15:29] <ali1234> for offline use a notepad
[15:29] <AlanBell> HTML5 local storage
[15:30] <mungojerry> does owncloud do it?
[15:30] <BigRedS> I mean, anything I can point at a filesystem's good
[15:30] <mungojerry> seems to do everything
[15:30] <ali1234> also, if you write in the notepad in pencil, it will survive getting a bit damp
[15:30] <BigRedS> 'cause that I can distribute with sparkelshare or something, but I'm less sure about gitting MySQL data files... :)
[15:30] <popey> BigRedS,  a text document in dropbox / u1?
[15:31] <ali1234> this ^
[15:31] <BigRedS> yeah, I think that'll be it
[15:31] <mungojerry> this is same as tomboy
[15:31] <ali1234> but not dropbox/u1. use git, because then it's actually distributed
[15:31] <BigRedS> I just stumbled across todo.txt which is basically that but markdowned
[15:31] <BigRedS> yeah, I'm using sparkleshare now
[15:31] <popey> well, dropbox/u1 means you can easily use phone/tablet/pc/web etc
[15:31] <BigRedS> (though not really markdown)
[15:31] <popey> as they have clients for most platforms
[15:32] <awilkins> Freemind + Dropbox for me
[15:32] <ali1234> got a symbian u1 client yet?
[15:32] <popey> pass
[15:32] <popey> aquarius, ^
[15:33] <ali1234> photo sync is actually the only thing i use
[15:33] <ali1234> phones tend to not have plain text editors anyway
[15:34] <ali1234> so you could put your todo list in it and get it on the phone, but not view or edit it
[15:34] <ali1234> unless you can find an app and seriously who can be bothered with that?
[15:34] <BigRedS> most of what's on my todo list requires a computer of some sort anyway
[15:34] <BigRedS> as in one with a keyboard and a proper screen
[15:34] <ali1234> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.madgag.agit&hl=en
[15:35] <ali1234> yes, very much so
[15:35] <ali1234> and in my case, an internet connection
[15:35] <ali1234> either that or it requires none of the above in which case the notepad works fine
[15:36] <BigRedS> yeah, I suppose those are two distinct enough lists. Todo.txt looks fairly ideal, actually. Really tempted to write a bunch of scripts for talking to calendars and stuff
[15:36] <ali1234> i'm thinking of writing a android todo list that uses plaintext/markdown/git as a backend
[15:37] <ali1234> but i probably won't do it
[15:39] <BigRedS> haha
[16:12] <BigRedS> If I've a volume that I can see mounted in the GUI file browser thing, how do I find out which device it is and where it's actually mounted? I'm clicking around a mounted SD card but /media/avi/ is empty....
[16:18] <SuperMatt> which version are you running?
[16:18] <SuperMatt> you can find out where something is mounted by typing mount at the command line
[16:18] <BigRedS> I know
[16:18] <BigRedS> But I don't know what Gnome calls that
[16:19] <BigRedS> 1210
[16:19] <BigRedS> 12.10
[16:19] <SuperMatt> it may be in /run/user/BigRedS
[16:19] <BigRedS> I think that's one thing that's been steadily getting worse for a few releases. You used to be able to do it by going back and forward a few times and eventually ending up having browsed to the mount point rather than the //computer/SDCard or whatever
[16:20] <BigRedS>  /run? Nothing there... I've just pulled the sd card out now, though, and there's an obvious sda so I can do it the old fashioned way :)
[16:21] <SuperMatt> I'm actually confused about what you're doing :P
[16:22] <BigRedS> When I have a removable volume plugged in it shows up as some human-friendly name in the file browser. I want to know which actual device this is. Without unpluging it and plugging it in again and watching dmesg or stuff like that
[16:22] <BigRedS> it *must* be buried somewhere in this GUI, surely
[16:22] <SuperMatt> yeah, you should be able to find it in disks
[16:22] <diplo> aha, was about to suggest dmesg
[16:22] <SuperMatt> as in the application called disks
[16:23] <diplo> yeah disks was my next one
[16:23] <BigRedS> Ah, I can get the mountpoint out of the properties apparently
[16:23] <BigRedS> hahahaha, no
[16:23] <BigRedS> they've all got '/media/avi' as their location, but none say which directory under that they're mounted at
[16:24] <SuperMatt> it'll be named with the Volume name
[16:24] <SuperMatt> as listed in the properties
[16:24] <BigRedS> yeah, they're in disks, but disks doesn't use the names that the file browser does
[16:25] <diplo> that sucks :/
[16:25] <BigRedS> ah yeah, I can click through each device and check for partitions on it to see which one has that label
[16:25] <BigRedS> Suddenly, D:/ isn't looking so bad
[16:26] <BigRedS> at least there everything uses the same name for it...
[16:38] <awilkins> I find labelling filesystems helps a lot
[16:38] <awilkins> Instead of some short hex ID the mountpoints then get named for their label
[16:39] <BigRedS> do they?
[16:39] <BigRedS> I gave up on using labels because everything seemed to prefer UUIDs
[16:39] <awilkins> So I have /media/MEDIA /media/BIGTHUMB /media/tachikoma etc.
[16:39] <BigRedS> hm, maybe time to revisit that assumption
[16:48] <BigRedS> hm! So it does!
[16:52] <awilkins> Bah. Rhythmbox has gotten worse in Quantal, if that's possible
[16:53] <awilkins> At least Pulseaudio became stabler and doesn't have a spazz and garble all the samples played through it when you randomly hop around in an AVI file
[18:30] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Ubuntu UK Podcast] S05E19  Random Rhymes and Rambles - http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2012/11/07/s05e19-random-rhymes-and-rambles/
[18:32] <MartijnVdS> \o/ podcast
[19:00] <samuel> helllloooo
[19:00] <AlanBell> hello
[19:02] <samuel> yay!
[19:03] <samuel> anyone here testing steam?
[19:03] <AlanBell> ali1234: your cock a leekie soup made it to the podcast :)
[19:03] <AlanBell> samuel: some people are, I am not really into games
[19:04] <samuel> i got the client installed but as i'm not enrolled i cannot download any games yet, still its handy for getting on the client to chat
[19:04] <samuel> u know what... steam supports my sound devices better on linux than windows
[19:04] <samuel> pulse audio is good for something!
[19:06] <samuel> i expect you dont use unity either AlanBell :P
[19:06] <samuel> xfce perhaps
[19:06] <AlanBell> I use unity
[19:06] <samuel> what do you think of the new previews?
[19:09] <directhex> samuel, you can bypass the enrollment check & play any of the games which you own & have a linux version
[19:09] <directhex> http://i.imgur.com/BUOK9.png
[19:10] <samuel> hi directhex, i can get on the client, view my library, browse the store etc, i heard that l4d was on the beta but i cant download it it just has a link to the gaming hub
[19:11] <directhex> l4d is not in the beta AFAIK
[19:11] <directhex> it's one they were originally testing, but it's not part of this beta
[19:12] <directhex> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/12qs6z/steam_for_linux_its_here_deb_in_the_link/c6xf19p shows the status of games right now for people bypassing the bets (e.g. i hear SS3 works for real beta testers)
[19:14] <samuel> thanks so much for the link
[19:19] <samuel> ah but they have tf2! however i need to clear some hard drive space :P or maybe just buy a new hard drive for my laptop
[19:21] <samuel> think i will have much luck running it on an e450 and 4gb ram?
[19:27] <directhex> the "real" beta games actually require you to be in the beta
[19:27] <directhex> i.e. tf2 and serious sam 3
[19:29] <ali1234> AlanBell: well someone else came up with that specific search term
[19:31] <ali1234> this idea that the design is intentional bothers me
[19:32] <ali1234> because the filter clearly is matching against a specific set of patterns
[19:32] <ali1234> the idea that adding a space means "i really want adult content" seems pretty far out
[19:33] <ali1234> since it matches a specific set of words, why not match those words and then put up a message "it looks like you are searching for adult content. do you want to see it? yes/no/never show this again"
[19:33]  * awilkins steams
[19:35] <awilkins> "Steam is having trouble connecting to the Steam servers."
[19:37] <directhex> awilkins, when you try to do what?
[19:37] <awilkins> Log in
[19:37] <directhex> hm
[19:38] <awilkins> This is a 64-bit machine, mind
[19:38] <awilkins> I have a feeling that may be a problem
[19:39] <awilkins> Although the deb package obviously didn't
[19:41] <ali1234> 64 bit works for me
[19:41] <awilkins> Got a steam guard code this time
[19:41] <ali1234> even big screen mode
[19:41] <awilkins> But still server response is off
[19:41] <awilkins> Hmm, that was odd, it had an error but still worked :-)
[19:42] <awilkins> And the window chrome coordinates dont match the screen position of the mouse
[19:42] <awilkins> e.g. try to drag the scrollbar and it selects text
[19:42] <awilkins> to the left of it
[19:43] <ali1234> yeah i get that
[19:43] <ali1234> try dragging it around
[19:43] <awilkins> Resizing window fixes it
[19:44] <awilkins> "Log in with an enrolled account to continue" *phut*
[19:44] <directhex> awilkins, you can easily work around that
[19:44] <awilkins> So I gather, looking at the reddit page
[19:45] <directhex> here's the cutest: run it, so it appears in your unity dock. right click, click "lock to launcher". then when it gives you an error, click ok. your still have a steam icon in your dock. now instead of left clicking it, right click and pick *any* option. library, friends, store, whatever
[19:45]  * awilkins clicks on install TF2 link and it gets to the "Install" dialog
[19:46] <directhex> tf2 will not install if you're not in the beta
[19:46] <awilkins> Preparing
[19:46] <directhex> the steam servers will issue a 403 when your client tries to download the linux binaries, resulting in a "servers too busy" error
[19:46] <awilkins> But it gets you into client
[19:46] <awilkins> Osmos is apparently all I have registered
[19:47]  * awilkins tries big picture
[19:47] <directhex> big picture works, although it's super slow to start
[19:47] <awilkins> Tis going here
[19:47] <awilkins> v.pretty
[19:47] <ali1234> it wasn't slow for me
[19:47] <awilkins> Not integrated with my XBOX controller  though :P
[19:48] <awilkins> Bah, FTL has a Linux version
[19:48] <awilkins> It should work
[19:49] <directhex> i have no comments on which games work unless they;re listed on http://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/12qs6z/steam_for_linux_its_here_deb_in_the_link/c6xf19p with my name next to them
[19:51] <AlanBell> ali1234: I actually like the way the filter is implemented
[19:52] <ali1234> it's too opaque
[19:52] <AlanBell> it is very unobtrusive
[19:52] <awilkins> "No intenet connection"
[19:52] <awilkins> When trying to install Osmos
[19:52] <awilkins> Hrrmph
[19:52] <awilkins> Client refuses to be dragged off screen 0 - probably why the chrome is "off" until you resize it
[19:52] <AlanBell> it acts like a regular uncensored search (censorship is bad m'kay)
[19:53] <aquarius> ali1234: hey. There's no symbian client for Ubuntu One as far as I'm aware, but... does Symbian run Qt/QML/Python apps? If it does, then taking my N9 client and adapting it should be relatively easy
[19:53] <ali1234> aquarius: nokia owned Qt for a bit and was the first smartphone to officially support python... they also made their own python/qt bindings but both versions are fully supported. so yes, very much so
[19:55] <aquarius> ali1234: that's what I thought. (Sorry, I don't know much about Symbian; the last time I used a Symbian phone was an E60, about eight years ago, and that had a Python interpreter.) So, someone with Symbian knowledge and Python + JavaScript knowledge could take my N9 client and port it relatively easily, I'd have thought.
[19:55] <ali1234> should be...
[19:55] <aquarius> ali1234: there's a few n9-specific things in there; the largest ones are talking to the N9's "transfer UI" (a system-wide download progress indicator), and that the QML uses Meego-specific components.
[19:56] <ali1234> ah yeah
[19:56] <aquarius> But all the *code* to connect to U1, download things, etc should work fine.
[19:56] <ali1234> the good old platform specific components in meego
[19:56] <ali1234> in QML i mean... one for each platform, all totally different
[19:56] <aquarius> It'd be a port, not just a case of copying files, I'm afraid, but I suspect that the stuff I did would get someone, say, 60% of the way there.
[19:56] <ali1234> probably further actually
[19:58] <aquarius> alternatively, for a slightly hackier approach, u1ftp (which runs as an ftp server and connects to U1 on the back end, allowing you to "connect" to U1 with an ftp client) is pure Python with no UI components, so that might be another approach; install u1ftp on the phone and run it, and then connect to localhost:2121 with any existing Symbian FTP client.
[19:58] <ali1234> hmm... no
[19:58] <aquarius> that's obviously hackier, but it's probably easier to get up and running. :)
[19:58] <ali1234> all i want is my photos auto uploading, like they do on android
[19:58] <aquarius> a.
[19:58] <aquarius> ah.
[19:58] <ali1234> don't use any other U1 features
[19:58] <aquarius> u1fn9 (my N9 client) doesn't do auto-photo-upload.
[19:59] <aquarius> I wanted it too, but I didn't want to write a long-running Python daemon
[19:59] <ali1234> at the moment i carry my C7 as a phone and my android phone as a camera/tablet/maps
[20:00] <ali1234> and the android is tethered to the C7
[20:00] <ali1234> on wifi
[20:00] <aquarius> so you'd need to implement it as a new thing. It'd be *fairly* trivial to do, though; a daemon which gets signalled somehow by the OS when a new photo arrives (I don't know how Symbian would do that) followed by a simple HTTP PUT request with oauth signing to upload the photo.
[20:06] <ali1234> aquarius:  seen this?: http://ubi.garage.maemo.org/
[20:07] <aquarius> ali1234: I have. I dropped off a note to the author a while back, but didn't hear back.
[20:07] <ali1234> quite possibly he's totally disillusioned with nokia
[20:07] <aquarius> it is possible. I have something of a similar feeling.
[20:08] <ali1234> every one does :(
[20:08] <ali1234> last update was somewhat recent though, so who knows
[21:00] <ball> Evenin'
[21:01] <popey> lo
[22:19] <directhex> jesus tapdancing christ what grade of obnoxious moron puts a "good, not evil" clause in their software license?
[22:20] <mgdm> I've come across that but I forget what it was
[22:20] <shauno> reminds me of itunes' "nuclear facilities" clause in their eula
[22:20] <mgdm> shauno: Java has that too, I think
[22:20] <directhex> mgdm, anything json-related. it's the json license
[22:21] <directhex> MIT with an added non-free clause about good and evil
[22:21] <mgdm> ah, hmm. I'm sure there's something else, too
[22:29] <ali1234> json?
[22:30] <ali1234> aren't there multiple independent implementations under different licenses?
[22:37] <directhex> http://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=The+Software+shall+be+used+for+Good%2C+not+Evil
[22:37] <directhex> every hit is non-Free & needs to be pulled
[22:38] <ali1234> i agree
[22:38] <popey> oh dear
[22:38] <popey> what loon put that in there?
[22:39] <ali1234> http://wonko.com/post/jsmin-isnt-welcome-on-google-code
[22:43] <mgdm> Oh dear
[22:43] <mgdm> didn't realise we'd used that code in PHP
[22:48] <directhex> they seem to think it's funny
[22:48] <directhex> srsly guys, wake me when you hit puberty ¬_¬
[22:49] <zleap> lol
[22:50] <ali1234> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2010/03/msg00064.html
[22:52] <ali1234> actually i think i remember this being on slashdot
[22:56] <popey> yeah, about etherpad?
[22:56] <popey> "Google released the source code for Etherpad under the Apache License version 2.0 on December 17, 2009.[14] Subsequently, Google asked the Etherpad code maintainers to remove JSMin from its code tree due to a clause in its license stating, "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil," which is not compatible with the open source licenses allowed on Google Code.[15]
[22:56] <popey> "
[22:58] <popey> oh, its in android
[22:58] <Azelphur> haha
[22:58] <popey> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1496760
[22:59] <AlanBell> that is a textbook example of a non-free clause
[22:59] <shauno> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2010/03/msg00071.html   claims the implementation in v8 (which that android link appears to reference), is a clean implementation
[23:08] <Azelphur> Anyone else who uses faster payments transactions with bank regularly, does your bank display a clause when you send money that it may be held for up to 2 days for a fraud check?
[23:08] <Azelphur> Santander just did that to me and it caused a buttload of problems, really annoying.
[23:11] <czajkowski> aquirius: they've seemingly deleted all their work after adding another machine, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2012-November/035358.html
[23:11] <czajkowski> aquarius: ^^^
[23:12] <daubers> \o/ RepRap prints!!!
[23:16] <ali1234> oh dear.
[23:16] <popey> i bet he added a second machine, and right clicked the ubuntu one folder and said "sync this"
[23:16] <popey> uploading nothing
[23:16]  * popey replies
[23:17] <ali1234> this is why i only use U1 as some kind of magical pipe for copying files between machines
[23:17] <ali1234> copy file in one end, move it out the other
[23:17] <ali1234> popey: that's not an unreasonable thing to do
[23:17] <directhex> AlanBell, yes, it's *the* textbook example
[23:17] <AlanBell> why wouldn't you expect that to work?
[23:18] <ali1234> only unreasonable people like me would expect that to be broken
[23:18] <directhex> DFSG clause 6
[23:18] <directhex> No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor
[23:18] <directhex> The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the program in a specific field of endeavor. For example, it may not restrict the program from being used in a business, or from being used for genetic research.
[23:18] <directhex> evil is a field of endeavor
[23:23] <shauno> is lazieness good or evil?  because most my code is born of lazy :/
[23:24] <AlanBell> https://plus.google.com/118095276221607585885/posts/13shsS2bAEY
[23:24] <ali1234> attempting to define good or evil for the author of this license is pointless because their whole point is "hurrr, if you don't know you must be evil!"
[23:25] <shauno> interesting.  "works at paypal".  I wonder if he's dual-licensed it for them
[23:27] <popey> i doubt they care
[23:28] <ali1234> so basically his contribution is he wrote a retarded license to make himself feel good, do nothing to prevent "evil" and cause a lot of problems for everyone else
[23:28] <ali1234> well, gee, thanks
[23:29] <ali1234> what an absolute nob
[23:29] <AlanBell> that might not be in relation to json code, could be anything really, just was someone who uses it and feels good about doing so
[23:29] <ali1234> AlanBell: what do you mean?
[23:30] <AlanBell> ali1234: I have no idea who that person is, or whether they wrote the json license
[23:30] <ali1234> he did
[23:30] <shauno> popey: companies that size end up caring whether they want to or not, because they've got so many lawyers trying to keep themselves employed
[23:31] <ali1234> he's the moron who started the whole thing
[23:31] <AlanBell> ah, he did
[23:31] <AlanBell> mupet
[23:31] <shauno> eg, http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-10422338-264.html   ^F IBM  (and it's on topic)
[23:45] <ali1234> even if he makes an except and allows it to be used for good and evil it still isn't free
[23:45] <ali1234> because what about uses which are neutral?
[23:45] <AlanBell> so for something like PHP5 which includes it in on file
[23:45] <directhex> it's a clause designed to mock users who obey licenses
[23:46] <directhex> so why obey the rest of it (the MIT parts)?
[23:46] <ali1234> how do you obey the MIT parts?
[23:46] <AlanBell> /ext/json/JSON_parser.c (actually a couple of others too)
[23:46] <AlanBell> if we were to write a clean implementation of that file, and patch the clean one over the non-free one
[23:46] <shauno> I more found it interesting that places that can afford lawyers, do take it seriously.  (and that he treats the whole thing as the best joke he's ever heard)
[23:46] <AlanBell> would that be allowed as the non-free one is still in the source package?
[23:47] <ali1234> shauno: yes, that's why i think he's a nob. beacuse he thinks he's really clever for doing this.
[23:47] <AlanBell> or is it a case of dropping php altogether
[23:47] <AlanBell> or patching out that file and dropping json support, would that be acceptable?
[23:47] <ali1234> AlanBell: i think it would be, because nothing says you can't distribute non-free and free side by side. in fact it's explicitly allowed
[23:47] <shauno> or pushing said reimplementation upstream
[23:48] <ali1234> you just can't "link" them
[23:48] <directhex> ali1234, by placing a clear copyright notice where required
[23:49] <AlanBell> shauno: pushing upstream would clearly be the right way to solve it, I am curious about the alternatives
[23:49] <ali1234> directhex: besides, that's exactly what he wants. because then he can say "ell, GPL people don't follow other licenses so why should i follow the GPL?"
[23:49] <directhex> well, the question is whether the evil clause is a redistribution issue or an and-user issue
[23:50] <directhex> if it's a redistribution issue, i.e. "this file may not be redistributed by evildoers", then the file must be dropped from a modified source tarball, and the replacement injected either here or in debian/patches
[23:50] <directhex> if it's an end-user issue, then the original tarball can remain
[23:50] <directhex> and the patch be applied via debian/patches
[23:50] <ali1234> it clearly says "used"
[23:51] <ali1234> it also says "The above copyright notice"
[23:51] <ali1234> doesn't say anything about the part below
[23:51] <ali1234> so just delete that line, and you are in compliance with the license
[23:52] <popey> novel
[23:52] <AlanBell> brilliant :)
[23:52] <ali1234> nah, someone pointed it out on the comments on the first article i linked
[23:54] <shauno> I'm not sure that's accurate.  'the above copyright notice' (the (c) json.org part) 'and this permission notice' (of which the absurd clause is part)
[23:54] <ali1234> damn
[23:54] <ali1234> oh well, back to plan A. just rewrite it and forget this ever happened
[23:56] <ali1234> actually i think directhex has a point about distribution
[23:56] <ali1234> if i beat someone to death with a debian source CD i am probably violating this license
[23:56] <ali1234> that's a field of endeavour right?
[23:56] <popey> depends who you beat to death
[23:56] <ali1234> good point
[23:57] <ali1234> let's assume it's a puppy then.
[23:57] <AlanBell> and whether you take the CD away or leave it on the body
[23:57] <popey> what if the puppy bit my cat?
[23:57] <popey> tricky area
[23:58] <ali1234> not really, it's still vigilante justice and cruel and unusual pnishment
[23:59] <shauno> reimplementation sounds like a fantastic idea.  author is apparently gidy with this modicum of power, so it should probably be taken away for his own sake.