[14:06] <ananke> how can I identify which cloud-init module is erroring out? cloud-init status --long shows 'degraded done', but 'errors' shows 'errors: []'
[14:15] <ananke> the exit code I get is '2', while the full message is https://dpaste.org/pbAAp
[14:26] <ananke> while cloud-init.log ends with main.py[DEBUG] Ran 12 modules with 0 failures
[14:26] <ananke> and  handlers.py[DEBUG] finish: modules-final: SUCCESS: running modules for final
[14:37] <holman> ananke: the exit 2 relates to the information you see after 'recoverable_errors'
[14:38] <holman> ananke: does your userdata try to use the `cc_refresh_rmc_and_interface` key?
[14:39] <ananke> it doesn't. frankly, that's the first time I see that module. I'll look more in the logs to see what's going on
[14:39] <holman> ananke: the other thing going on is deprecation warnings due to using keys that will go away
[14:40] <holman> ananke: which distro?
[14:40] <ananke> kali linux, rolling, which is debian based these days
[14:42] <ananke> behind the scenes the process is a bit convoluted. I'm building an AMI from the official upstream AMI, using packer. then I take the resulting AMI and I do the same thing with a trimmed down packer/cloud-init configuration
[14:42] <holman> gotcha
[14:43] <ananke> both packer recipes start with the cloud-init --wait, and the first build process is fine. so it's something I introduce during the first stage, or that I feed during the second stage. second stage cloud-init contains bare minimum, and I've trimmed it down to the point of being just nothing
[14:44] <ananke> so now I'm dissecting things more. the problem is that the logs provide very little clue, there's nothing with 'error', etc
[14:45] <holman> ananke: can you tell me what `grep rmc /etc/cloud/cloud.cfg` shows?
[14:45] <ananke> if I could scope it down to a module, it would be ideal. sure, just a sec. starting a new run
[14:46] <ananke> on an instance running AMI from first stage, that returns: └─# grep rmc /etc/cloud/cloud.cfg
[14:46] <ananke>  - reset_rmc
[14:46] <ananke>  - refresh_rmc_and_interface
[14:47] <holman> ananke: did that config come stock with the image?
[14:47] <ananke> ahh, and cloud-init status produces exit code 2 there too
[14:47] <ananke> holman: yes, it did
[14:47] <ananke> we don't touch /etc/cloud/cloud.cfg
[14:48] <ananke> cloud-init 24.1.1-1
[14:49] <holman> ananke: that specific module was renived in 23.2
[14:49] <holman> removed
[14:49] <holman> so the distro provider needs to drop that key from the confix
[14:49] <ananke> I don't suppose you have an idea what module is this? I can't find it in the documentation
[14:49] <holman> config
[14:49] <ananke> ohh, I see. thank you. and this explains, I was looking at 24.1 documentation
[14:50] <holman> yeah
[14:50] <holman> so probably a debian change?
[14:50] <ananke> wouldn't surprise me. I can file a bug with Kali, and see if they'll file it upstream
[14:50] <holman> ananke: perfect, thanks!
[14:51] <holman> ananke: could you link me the bug once it's filed?
[14:51] <ananke> certainly. one quick question: as a temporary workaround can I override the inclusion of this module via a cfg.d file, or will I have to remove it from cloud.cfg?
[14:52] <holman> just remove it from cloud.cfg and that should go away
[14:53] <ananke> cheers. I'll test that
[14:53] <holman> and once you update your cloud-config keys to use the non-deprecated ones, I would expect status to exit 0
[15:17] <holman> ananke: just to reiterate: all that you need to debug an exit 2 error code should be visible in the recoverable errors key
[15:18] <holman> ananke: and here's some bedtime reading material if you want more background on it -> https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/explanation/return_codes.html
[15:21] <ananke> thank you. I'm currently rebuilding the image in stage 1 to see if removing those rmc modules will suffice. I'll also read that documentation. once I'm certain this is the issue, I'll file bug with Kali and pass you the info
[15:22] <holman> sounds good :-)
[15:22] <holman> looking forward to hearing back from you
[15:23] <holman> minimal: ping (when you're around)
[15:55] <holman> minimal: I know you took a peak at #5120 and had some questions around gdate / etc
[15:56] <holman> minimal: that PR is approved by falcojr but I'll wait to merge in case you have any outstanding concerns
[15:56] <holman> minimal: I added context related to the usage of gnu date to the PR context
[16:02] <minimal> holman: thanks, having a read of the comments now
[16:03] <holman> minimal: thanks :)
[16:03] <minimal> BTW yes Busybox ash is not necessarily 100% POSIX compliant (depending on its config when built) but from memory "shellcheck -s sh ..." does complain about $'..' not being POSIX
[16:04] <holman> yeah I haven't found anything that is 100% POSIX complaint
[16:04] <holman> dash isn't either
[16:05] <holman> good to know on the shellcheck -s sh
[16:05] <minimal> well ash *CAN* be if you don't enable any of the non-POSIX compile options
[16:05] <holman> good to know
[16:06] <minimal> i.e. one of the links you referenced mentioned the ENABLE_ASH_BASH_COMPAT compile option - turn that off and you're 1 step closer to POSIX compliance
[16:06] <holman> but I honestly don't care about 100% compliance without a real use-case
[16:06] <holman> "local" is really nice
[16:07] <minimal> Alpine's ash turns that on: https://git.alpinelinux.org/aports/tree/main/busybox/busyboxconfig#n1143
[16:07] <minimal> yeah, "local" is probably the only non-POSIX feature I tend to use in my shellscripts
[16:10] <holman> I recently discovered the freebsd man page for sh (also an Almquist derivative)
[16:10] <minimal> you can never have enough shell options eh? ;-)
[16:11] <holman> it's really good
[16:11] <holman> https://man.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?sh
[16:11] <holman> hehe, so many options
[16:15] <holman> minimal: one more thing
[16:15] <holman> minimal: do you have any pointers for installing python3.12 on edge?
[16:16] <holman> I can just wait for 3.12 to become available if not
[16:17] <minimal> there are no "released" py3.12 packages for Edge - basically as a lot of python packages are breaking with 3.12 ncopa hasn't yet pushed a 3.12 package as that would mess up Edge
[16:17] <holman> gotcha
[16:18] <holman> I'd have to build from source then to repro that issue?
[16:18] <minimal> however he does have a "personal" repo with the 3.12 packages he created and there were notes posted on IRC how to make use of this for others working on fixing 3.12-related issues
[16:18] <minimal> I'll dig up those notes...
[16:19] <holman> thanks
[16:21] <minimal> cloud-init already has some testing for py3.12, right?
[16:21] <minimal> I though I saw a reference to 3.12 a while ago in some of the github workflow stuff
[16:42] <holman> minimal: 3.13 even :-)
[16:43] <holman> https://github.com/canonical/cloud-init/blob/93f5a0165069603b2eb45ec20983393170fe78a9/.github/workflows/unit.yml#L28
[16:52] <minimal> holmnan: so where would the 3.12 logs be visible?
[16:52] <minimal> BTW re the $'...' thing, https://www.shellcheck.net/wiki/SC2039
[16:57] <holman> Python 3.12 pytest logs should be visible in every PR under the "Checks" tab -> open the "Unit tests" dropdown
[16:58] <holman> ex: https://github.com/canonical/cloud-init/pull/5162/checks
[16:58] -ubottu:#cloud-init- Pull 5162 in canonical/cloud-init "Deprecate the users ssh-authorized-keys property" [Open]
[16:58] <holman> which triggered this ci job: https://github.com/canonical/cloud-init/actions/runs/8626580327/job/23665266600?pr=5162
[17:03] <minimal> so then that ci unittest passing points to the issue likely being specific to musl and py3.12. I wonder if freebsd would have similar issues with python 3.12
[17:50] <holman> minimal: agreed
[17:51] <holman> okay just figured out a reproducer
[18:08] <minimal> oh? interesting
[18:40] <ananke> hmm, more deprecated stuff: Invalid user-data /var/lib/cloud/instances/i-0b277ba864e274251/cloud-config.txt
[18:40] <ananke> Error: Cloud config schema errors: system_info: Additional properties are not allowed ('system_info' was unexpected)
[18:41] <ananke> what was system_info replaced with?
[18:50] <minimal> anake: system_info isn't user-data, it's specified in /etc/cloud.cfg
[18:51] <minimal> used to specify things like the distro name, default user name, etc
[18:52] <minimal> https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/reference/base_config_reference.html#system-info-keys
[18:52] <ananke> uhmm, user-data can provide cloud-init config. this wasn't an issue in earlier versions of cloud-init
[18:53] <minimal> from that page: "Anything under system_info cannot be overridden by vendor data, user data, or any other handlers or transforms."d
[18:53] <ananke> hah. so we've had it all wrong for years, and cloud-init just started enforcing it
[18:53]  * ananke facepalms
[18:54] <minimal> "use the docs Luke..." ;-)
[18:55] <ananke> minimal: that's easy to say when you know what docs to look in. I kept looking
[18:55] <minimal> to find that I just used the "search" functionality on the RTD site
[18:55] <ananke> I did too, but missed that section
[18:56] <minimal> that was the 3rd result returned for "system_info": "Base configuration"
[18:56] <ananke> been fighting this stuff too long today. the fact that it didn't become an issue until now is what was throwing me off
[18:57] <ananke> literally the same config at the start of the process is valid, and it becomes invalid at the end of it, while cloud-init is updated
[18:57] <minimal> it doesn't become "invalid" at the end, it was always invalid, it just wasn't validated automatically in (some) previous releases
[18:57] <ananke> so I'm wondering how in the world this is going to work moving forward
[18:58] <minimal> invalid config is always invalid config, even if you don't realise/aren't told so
[18:59] <minimal> um, you validate any user-data before using it?
[18:59] <ananke> minimal: validate _how_?
[18:59] <minimal> using the cli validation?
[19:00] <ananke> no, I don't. like I said, this particular configuration was never a problem until the new version of cloud-init
[19:00] <minimal> it wasn't a "problem" but it was still incorrect/invalid
[19:00] <ananke> problems with the syntax in the past were more apparent
[19:00] <minimal> "cloud-init schema ..." to check
[19:01] <ananke> minimal: part of the problem is that I can't pre-validate it before feeding it as user-data. chicken & egg: there's no cloud-init in place to validate it
[19:01] <minimal> i.e. "cloud-init schema -t cloud-config -c myconfig.yml"
[19:02] <minimal> you use another machine/VM to run the validation on?
[19:03] <ananke> not for user-data. and I'd need to somehow have cloud-init of a given version available. this process uses a single container image with packer/aws tools/etc. it's used to build images for many different distros, each one with different version of cloud-init
[19:04] <minimal> well as what represents valid user-data can change between cloud-init releases your infra should take this into account
[19:05] <ananke> easier said than done
[19:05] <minimal> ok but that doesn't change the fact
[19:05] <ananke> not sure why you're beating the dead horse at this point
[19:06] <minimal> i.e. if you're creating user-data using some form of templating that that template could be written to cater for differing versions
[19:14] <ananke> as to being invalid in previosu versions, I find it dubious. the default user/gecos fields I'm feeding via user-data _are_ used on first boot.
[19:15] <ananke> or rather, they were with an earlier version
[19:15] <ananke> I'll do some more digging later
[19:15] <minimal> how are you providing them? inside a top-level "users:" section?
[19:16] <ananke> system_info: default_user:
[19:16] <minimal> which earlier cloud-init version?
[19:34] <ananke> sorry, had to drive to the office. let me check
[19:38] <ananke> removing ability to specify default_user via user-data would be fairly problematic. we rely on it, and has worked just fine on ubuntu/centos/debian/etc for years.
[19:40] <ananke> so it worked fine on 23.3.1, and schema check returns no issues there. after cloud-init is updated to 24.1.1 and system is rebooted, schema is no longer accepted
[19:44] <minimal> 23.3.1? I'm not seeing that in the github cloud-init releases list for some reason, there is 23.3.2 and 23.3 but not 23.3.1
[19:44] <ananke> cloud-init     23.3.1-1     all          initialization system for infrastructure cloud instances
[19:45] <minimal> I'm guess that release was "pulled" for some reason
[19:45] <ananke> and this would mean anything previous was accepting these keys too
[19:46] <ananke> our 'default_user' fed via user-data hasn't changed in years
[19:46] <minimal> anyway, the 23.2.2 docs state the same about system_info not being overriden by user-data, so then I'd say the behaviour you see with 23.3.1 is a bug as it was not intended to work
[19:47] <minimal> so what led you to expect a "system_info" section in cloud-config to work? Was there a document at some time that showed this as valid?
[19:49] <ananke> must have been. and it clearly worked across multiple distros/versions. we've had this for the past 5 years
[19:49] <ananke> ubuntu 16/18/20/22, centos 7, debian 10/11, kali, etc
[19:49] <minimal> ok, but it seems likely that was unintended behaviour
[19:49] <holman> ananke: that used to be supported, apparently back in 0.7.2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cloud-init/+bug/1090482
[19:49] -ubottu:#cloud-init- Launchpad bug 1090482 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Raring) "over-riding distro config still broken" [High, Fix Released]
[19:50] <minimal> normally to change aspects of the default user in cloud-config you'd specify: "users:\n  - default\n" and then some attributes
[19:50] <ananke> hah. https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/22.1_a/topics/examples.html?highlight=default_user
[19:51] <ananke> so it was in the sample config in documentation
[19:52] <holman> ananke: but it looks like that was reverted in 18.4 in this commit: https://github.com/canonical/cloud-init/commit/f0ff194054da90b7b49620b5658342e52156d68e
[19:52] -ubottu:#cloud-init- Commit f0ff194 in canonical/cloud-init "stages: Fix bug causing datasource to have incorrect sys_cfg."
[19:52] <holman> as a fix for this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cloud-init/+bug/1787459
[19:52] -ubottu:#cloud-init- Launchpad bug 1787459 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "datasource.sys_cfg gets different values in local stage and after." [Medium, Fix Released]
[19:53] <ananke> holman: so I wonder how it continued to work for us, until now
[19:53] <holman> ananke: did it actually work? or did it just fail silently?
[19:53] <holman> ananke: schema validation isn't blocking configurations, it's just warning about invalid ones
[19:54] <minimal> the cloud-init.log with debug should show exactly what happens or doesn't happen with that cloud-config
[19:54] <ananke> holman: it worked. we've built hundreds of images, with our custom default username fed via user-data's default_username option
[19:55] <ananke> minimal: the users - default doesn't allow you to specify what the default user will be. just includes the default username configured via default_user
[19:55] <ananke> s/default_username/default_user in earlier sentence
[19:56] <minimal> ananke: I believe you can do "users:\n  - default\n    name: whatyouwant\n" to override the default name
[19:56] <ananke> I can certainly try and see if that works
[19:56] <minimal> "name:" being one of the attributes that can be specified
[19:57] <minimal> I'm fairly sure I've used that in the past
[20:06] <Odd_Bloke> "default" is a string not a mapping, so I don't think that's valid YAML.
[20:10] <minimal> hmm, I could have sworn I'd overriden aspects of the default user in the past
[20:10] <Odd_Bloke> I think perhaps `user:` can be used to override the default default user?
[20:11] <Odd_Bloke> Or the default user defaults, perhaps more accurately (if not less confusingly :p).
[20:11] <minimal> well yeah, if you specify "users:" but don't also specify "- default" then it won't be created and then you could have a "full" user definition instead
[20:11] <ananke> so how would one translate this config to something using the user module? https://dpaste.org/XdcZx/raw
[20:12] <minimal> "users:\n  - name: student\n     gecos: Student\n     shell: /bin/bash" would definately work
[20:12] <Odd_Bloke> I _think_ the content of your `default_user:` block under `user:` at the top level.
[20:12] <ananke> the nice thing about using this approach was that one would just override the bare minimum needed: username/gecos/shell. The rest was inherited from whatever the distro provides
[20:13] <minimal> as by NOT specifying "- default" when you specify "users:" then the default is not created
[20:13] <minimal> that's mentioned in the docs for the users_groups module
[20:14] <minimal> oh, you want to inherit also.....hmm
[20:14] <ananke> well, inheritance is a secondary goal, at this juncture I just need to figure out how to make this work with whatever is the correct syntax
[20:15] <ananke> the problem is though, distro provides its own system_info with default_user: wonder how this is going to work
[20:16] <Odd_Bloke> https://github.com/canonical/cloud-init/blob/main/cloudinit/distros/ug_util.py#L172-L173 sets old_user to cfg["user"], and https://github.com/canonical/cloud-init/blob/main/cloudinit/distros/ug_util.py#L207 merges that with distro.get_default_user().
[20:17] <ananke> wonder if I'm a canary, and other people will come out with the same problem :)
[20:17] <minimal> ah, there is "user:" to override the default
[20:17] <minimal> it's shown in "Example7" for the users_groups module
[20:18] <minimal> so "user:\n  name: whatever\n"
[20:19] <ananke> will try both and see what comes out
[20:22] <ananke> gotta get kid from practice, will finish this tongith
[20:22] <ananke> tonight
[20:23] <minimal> Odd_Bloke: I'd missed that you referenced "user:" earlier
[20:35] <Odd_Bloke> Haha, I did wonder, all good!
[20:35] <Odd_Bloke> At least we reached the same conclusion.
[21:08] <falcojr> hmmm, after trying it looks like you actually can override the default_user in system_info using user data...but that's not going to be true for most keys in system_info and using `user` as already mentioned here is the supported way to go
[21:31] <holman> ananke: thanks for reporting one this
[21:31] <holman> *on
[21:32] <holman> it sounds like we have some docs to update and deprecation(s) to add to schema
[21:32] <holman> ananke: we've warned on invalid keys for a while now I think, I assume you're digging into this because of the exit 2 error code?
[21:36] <holman> unfortunately there's been some spurious things like this to fix
[21:37] <holman> which is one reason why we haven't made cloud-init hard error on invalid config, but rather warn more loudly when it thinks it's got something that isn't right
[21:37] <holman> cloud-init's configuration was never fully documented, and it's difficult to audit all of the places that the config is accessed, but we're getting closer :-)
[21:50] <ananke> holman: yes, it all started after running into that exit code 2. when building images with packer we leverage cloud-init as much as possible, so we can have more uniform build recipes, and the first build step is to run cloud-init status --wait. up until now this step never complained about this particular schema
[21:51] <holman> ananke: gotcha
[21:55] <ananke> but yeah, back when we started documentation wasn't anywhere near as complete, so we relied on example configs. once it was working, that part wasn't touched, and we were none wiser
[21:58] <ananke> now it's a matter of moving to whatever syntax is valid and replicates previous functionality. will have to use the serial console, because packer can't seem to be able to connect anymore
[22:11] <ananke> ohh, this is interesting. looks like ssh_authorized_keys for that user may be wiping packer's ssh key
[22:20] <ananke> so a couple observations: 1) no, omitting keys for a user via the users: config does NOT merge it with what the ones for default_user:. this includes things like groups, sudoers, and so on
[22:21] <ananke> which leads me to believe that's not how you can specify the default user, because more importantly 2) this new user does not have ssh keys specified in AWS metadata
[22:21] <minimal> ananke: "user:" config or "users:" config? from the earlier chat the consensus was to use "user:" for changing default user stuff
[22:22] <ananke> minimal: I must have misread it. I've been using 'users:'
[22:23] <minimal> I mentioned "Example7" for the users_groups module
[22:23] <ananke> I haven't figured out what Example7 means. I've been looking at https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/reference/examples.html
[22:24] <ananke> ahh, I see, https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/reference/modules.html#users-and-groups
[22:24] <minimal> go to https://cloudinit.readthedocs.io/en/latest/reference/modules.html
[22:24] <minimal> then go to the "Users and Groups" section
[22:24] <minimal> then click on the "Examples" tab in that section
[22:25] <minimal> then scroll down to "Example7"
[22:25] <ananke> yep, found it, thank you
[22:25] <minimal> also click on the "Config schema" tab in that section and look at "user"
[22:26] <minimal> "The user dictionary values override the default_user configuration from /etc/cloud/cloud.cfg."
[22:27] <minimal> "The user dictionary keys support for the default_user are the same as the users schema" - so you can specify things like "ssh_authorized_keys"
[22:27] <ananke> it's certainly been a long day. user: vs users: blends in
[22:28] <ananke> minimal: the problem wasn't with what was supplied via ssh_authorized_keys, rather what's provided via AWS metadata service
[22:28] <minimal> "users:" is the general way to creation additional users, whereas "user:" is to modify the default user's settings
[22:29] <minimal> you're referring to metadata? or to metadata/user-data/network config provided via the metadata *service* (IMDS)?
[22:31] <minimal> as I'd expect ssh keys coming via IMDS to be from user-data provided (by you) to AWS cli/API when a VM is created
[22:32] <ananke> these keys are created automatically by packer, and accessible via metadata service under public-keys/, presumably that's where cloud-init pulls them from
[22:33] <ananke> point being, when I tried using the 'users:' section to specify our username, that user was created, but the packer ssh key wasn't present in that account
[22:33] <ananke> moving to user: fixed it
[22:35] <minimal> right, as "users:" was creating a new user (with no ssh_authorized_keys specified)
[22:36] <ananke> but interestingly enough, there seemed to be _no_ default user
[22:37] <minimal> in which scenario?
[22:37] <ananke> in users:
[22:37] <minimal> ok, as mentioned earlier, when "users:" is used (i.e. to create NEW users) unless you specifiy "- default" then the default user will NOT be created
[22:37] <minimal> this is mentioned in the docs I referred you to
[22:38] <ananke> which is what made the mistake of 'users:' vs 'user:' confusing.
[22:38] <ananke> right, but all along I was trying to manipulate the default user
[22:39] <minimal> In the "Summary" tab: "Omission of default as the first item in the users list skips creation [typo] the default user."
[22:39] <ananke> that's not the point :)
[22:40] <minimal> that explains why the default user was not created when you used "users:"
[22:40] <ananke> the explanation is much simpler: I kept mistaking 'users:' for 'user:'. didn't realize there was a separate distinct config option 'user:'
[22:41] <minimal> that's why you should check "Config schema" for the relevant module in the docs ;-)
[22:42] <ananke> doesn't help in case where you think user: == users:
[22:44] <minimal> wouldn't kit help as that part of the docs clearly lists "user:" and "users:" *separately* one of the other?
[22:45] <minimal> s/one of the/one after the/
[22:45] <minimal> that section (in my opinion) makes it very clear that they are 2 different things
[22:46] <ananke> not sure there's much more point in telling me I made a mistake
[22:47] <ananke> I realize that. I was merely explaining what happened
[22:48] <minimal> I wasn't doing that, I'm just saying that (in my opinion) the relevant section of the docs, if consulted, is quite clear
[22:48] <minimal> obviously if it is not consulted that's a different matter
[22:49] <ananke> the fact that user manipulation is spread across 'default_user' 'user' and 'users' doesn't help
[22:49] <ananke> but I digress. the issue in this particular case is solved, thank you everybody for help and patience
[22:50] <minimal> "user" and "users" are documented in the same place, "default_user" is documented in base config which, from memory, mentions this is config setting for distros/vendors, not for "end users"


[00:11] <simba_> hmm...to run boxee in lucid i had to manually add libfaad and libmysqlclient...
[00:20] <arand> simba_: Faulty depends? -> file a bug ;)
[00:21] <simba_> arand, yes, but it was a karmic version and not from "our" repos, so i did it with boxee
[00:22] <simba_> arand, i just wanted to see what all the fuzz with boxee realy was
[00:23] <arand> ah, okies, sorry, it was a kind of handwavey answer, I know nothing of boxee really.
[00:24] <simba_> arand, just read a lot about it in all the CES news...it is kind of a mediasenter
[00:25] <simba_> arand, have install files for win, mac and ubuntu....
[00:29] <arand> Ah, I've heard about that in a podcast sometime I think. Didn't ever dabble in mediacentres. Well I guess if the deb is from them the packaging bug should be thrown at them..
[00:30] <simba_> just remember someone was having trouble getting it running the other day.
[00:31] <blueyed> How do I need to change a previous HAL fdi file, so it gets handled in Lucid? (http://daniel.hahler.de/hal-configuration-fdi-for-kingsis-peripherals-evoluent-verticalmouse-3)
[00:38] <dupondje> back on Lucid :)
[00:39] <BUGabundo> wb dupondje
[00:39] <geser> blueyed: I guess you need to change it to udev rules
[00:39] <dupondje> start menu not translated yet ? :)
[00:41] <geser> blueyed: perhaps does this give you enough hints how to transform it: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/lucid/xserver-xorg-input-synaptics/lucid/annotate/head%3A/debian/66-xorg-synaptics.rules
[00:42] <blueyed> thanks geser, I've found https://wiki.kubuntu.org/X/InputConfiguration#Migration%20from%20hal%20FDI%20files already
[00:43] <geser> even better :)
[00:44]  * geser bookmarks this page on the ubuntu wiki
[00:49] <blueyed> yay, it worked, thanks.
[00:49] <dupondje> removing tons of packages :)
[00:49] <dupondje> marking all manually installed packages as autoinstalled, and then select the ones you need :)
[01:02] <dupondje> 176 packages removed :)
[01:07] <simba_> dupondje, what is the command for that?
[01:08] <BUGabundo> simba_: auto-remove
[01:09] <simba_> BUGabundo, autoremove will remove them, but mark all maualy installed as autoinstalled
[01:10] <dupondje> I still got firefox 3.0.7 languages installed, any idea how to remove them ?
[01:10] <BUGabundo> purge?
[01:10] <Laibsch> I have used debootstrap to create a hardy chroot (console-only).  I then upgraded that to lucid by editing /etc/apt/sources.list and "aptitude udpate;aptitude".  I'm stuck with this error: http://paste.debian.net/57461/ for which google does not seem to have an answer.  Do you?  bug or PEBKAC?
[01:11] <dupondje> BUGabundo: doesn't seem to have a package installed :s
[01:12] <dupondje><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:12] <dupondje> found :)
[01:17] <BUGabundo> nuke it :P
[01:19] <simba_> Laibsch, do you need to mount sysfs and proc when installing with debootstrap?
[01:19] <Laibsch> simba_: I used to
[01:19] <Laibsch> This time proc was already mounted
[01:19] <Laibsch> And I think sysfs, too
[01:20] <Laibsch> yes, sysfs seems to have been mounted automatically
[01:20] <Laibsch> The host runs hardy, btw
[01:20] <Laibsch> the chroot has been updated from hardy to lucid
[01:20] <simba_> havent used debootsrap, but that was what i could think of
[01:22] <simba_> Laibsch, there are a few versions between hardy and lucid
[01:22] <Laibsch> I think that update-path is supported
[01:22] <Laibsch> LTS -> LTS
[01:23] <simba_> true,
[01:26] <Laibsch> I tend to think it's PEBKAC, but I can't rule out a bug.  If it was a bug, I wonder what package it may be.
[01:39] <RAOF> Laibsch: Upgrading Hardy->Lucid by changing the series in sources.list isn't really supported; what will be supported is upgrading via update-manager (and it's command-line brother, do-release-upgrade)
[01:40] <Laibsch> OK
[01:40] <Laibsch> I'll restart the chroot
[01:41] <RAOF> I don't think Hardy's update-manager has been taught about Lucid yet, either.  I don't *think* Hardy->Lucid upgrades are supported just yet.
[01:41] <Laibsch> I see
[01:42] <Laibsch> I'm not convinced that is the root cause of this, anyway
[01:44] <simba_> Laibsch, some of the pachages have a chicken-egg thing....to far leap might brake dependency's with to big leaps when installing one by one like apt-get does
[01:55] <RAOF> Laibsch: Oh.  Now that I've actually looked at your error, that'll be due to the DBus system daemon not running.
[01:56] <RAOF> I think.  Possibly it's because upstart's not running, because it's detected you're in a chroot.
[01:56] <Volkodav_> Do I add medibuntu as usual or it is different for lynx ?
[01:56] <Laibsch> yes, there is something about upstart in the log
[01:56] <Laibsch> will a hardy host even be able to accomodate a lucid chroot?
[01:56] <simba_> Volkodav_, as usual
[01:57] <Volkodav_> thanks
[01:58] <RAOF> Laibsch: I think that some stuff just won't try to start; I'm fairly sure Lucid's udev won't work with the kernel in Hardy.
[01:59] <Laibsch> All I do in hary itself in maintain the chroot
[01:59] <Laibsch> The chroot itself shall be used for booting computers over PXE
[01:59] <Laibsch> s/hary/hardy/
[02:00] <RAOF> Interesting.  I'm pretty sure that you should be able to get a lucid chroot happening, even under Hardy.
[02:03] <simba_> Laibsch, apt with --force option dont work either?
[02:03] <Laibsch> I've already removed the chroot
[02:03] <Laibsch> and have restarted
[03:12] <prefrontal> upraded to lucid, wired connection not working. ifconfig shows i have an ip address and my nfs mount is working.
[03:13] <prefrontal> i can also ssh to this machine from another machine..
[03:27] <yofel> prefrontal: can you define 'not working'? You can't access the internet?
[03:28] <yofel> what does 'ping google.com' in a terminal tell you? maybe the DNS setup is wrong
[06:30] <petsounds> hi. when i install recommended nvidia driver from jockey-gtk i got an error msg like this http://is.gd/6UWB8 and then i try to restart the computer but it seems that i've installed wrong driver like this http://is.gd/6UX1p
[06:38] <petsounds> and this is the the output from jockey.log http://pastebin.ca/1763693
[10:22] <knittl> how can i troubleshoot locale-problems?
[10:43] <dupondje> Lucid just feels a bit better then Karmic :)
[10:43] <dupondje> nice improvement
[10:46] <eagles0513875> everythign feels a bit better then the previous
[10:47] <knittl> except my terminal -.-
[10:48] <dupondje> :) the user settings programm seems fucked up, I set my user to administrator, but nothing changes when I click ok, it keeps telling 'custom' :)
[10:58] <hifi> firefox 3.6 coming when?
[11:04] <dupondje>  501. By Alexander Sack  19 hours ago
[11:04] <dupondje>     releasing version 3.6+nobinonly-0ubuntu1
[11:04] <dupondje> they are working on it :D
[11:05] <hifi> sauce?
[11:07] <Ian_Corne> i got it from the ppa :p
[11:07] <hifi> which
[11:07] <switchgirl> anyone able to shed light on why ubuntu karmic refuses to boot at all?
[11:07] <hifi> (the release version, not hg)
[11:29] <dupondje> somebody should push new versions of synce to Lucid :)
[11:38] <junkY_San> hi, i'm using alpha2 and have an ati card. is it possible that the ati drivers aren't compatible with the latest xorg-server? because my X always complains that is runs in safe mode
[11:46] <dupondje> junkY_San: in release notes there is a warning about that
[11:47] <dupondje> The fglrx binary driver for ATI video chipsets does not yet support the X server in Lucid. As a workaround, users should use the open source -ati driver instead. (506656)
[11:48] <junkY_San> ah thanks
[12:53] <petsounds> hi. when i install recommended nvidia driver from jockey-gtk i got an error msg like this http://is.gd/6UWB8 and then i try to restart the computer but it seems that i've installed wrong driver like this http://is.gd/6UX1p and this is the the output from jockey.log http://pastebin.ca/1763693
[13:06] <knittl> hi, i have texlive in status held back for almost a week now
[13:06] <knittl> is it save to dist-upgrade? it wants to remove texlive-base-bin, dvipdfmx and libkadm5srv6
[13:08] <yofel> meh, petsounds gone already...
[13:10] <geser> knittl: texlive-base-bin got replaced with texlive-binaries so it's removal is ok
[13:10] <geser> libkadm5srv6 is unreleated to TeX
[13:12] <knittl> ok, i'll dist-upgrade then. thanks geser
[13:13] <knittl> need to get 500 mb of archives. texlive is HUUUGE
[13:19] <junkY_San> finaly got the radeon driver working again with 3d acceleration. there were some strange libgl packages installed
[13:34] <dupondje> pidgin icon went fucked :p
[13:34] <dupondje> its now with a big white border ...
[13:34] <dupondje> any idea ? :)
[13:46] <penguin42> sometime in the last week gnome shell got installable
[13:53] <penguin42> hmm but apparently not usable
[14:27] <tgpraveen> hey guys I am on lucid and am somewhat a newbie at installation fom source.
[14:27] <tgpraveen> I need the latest version of a program called tucan so I did
[14:27] <tgpraveen> svn co https://forja.rediris.es/svn/cusl3-tucan/trunk
[14:27] <tgpraveen> in terminal after installing svn
[14:27] <tgpraveen> now what is the next step I got the long list of output alongwith
[14:27] <tgpraveen> Checked out revision 1396.
[14:27] <tgpraveen> now what to do?
[14:28] <tgpraveen> where are the files downloaded to? how to compile? please soemone help
[14:37] <chris|> cd trunk && sudo make install
[14:40] <diverse_izzue> i have an existing karmic installation, and a free partition that i would like to use to test lucid. if i install it there, and choose not to install a boodloader, will karmic's GRUB pick it up when i next run update-grub?
[14:42] <penguin42> diverse_izzue: I don't think so
[14:43] <diverse_izzue> penguin42, how would you parallel install the two?
[14:44] <penguin42> diverse_izzue: I typically install in a vm for testing, but I think the otherway might be to install the bootloader in the partition that you are installing lucid into and then tell the first grub to chainload the 2nd - I don't know the syntax on gnome2 to do that though
[14:45] <diverse_izzue> penguin42, that's what i was thinking also, but i know that grub2 has some scripts to incorporate other linuxes, that's why i ask
[14:45] <penguin42> diverse_izzue: It might, I've not tried to do taht - but I don't think so
[14:46] <tgpraveen> chris|: that seemed to have worked
[14:46] <tgpraveen> next what do I do I mean how do I run it. I had earlier installed tucan from the repos so now is that version itself updated?
[14:46] <tgpraveen> can I run this latest version (from source) by using the applications menu icon of tucan
[14:55] <duffydack> diverse_izzue, just install it side by side it`ll pick up the other linux
[14:56] <diverse_izzue> duffydack, thanks, that's what i wanted to hear
[14:57] <duffydack> diverse_izzue,  I removed mine ealier (lucid).  rebooted into karmic, removed the partition and dod sudo grub-install --root-directory=/     /dev/sda  to restore grub
[14:57] <duffydack> dod=did
[14:58] <diverse_izzue> duffydack, so you had lucid's grub installed into the MBR?
[14:59] <duffydack> diverse_izzue, yes. it was the default boot distro
[14:59] <diverse_izzue> duffydack, i plan to not install a bootloader for lucid and use karmic's for the time being
[15:01] <duffydack> diverse_izzue, I guess update-grub will invoke os-prober and handle it for you.. never tried
[15:01] <duffydack> diverse_izzue, I wanna try some of this. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/01/make-grub-themes-beautiful-look-nicer.html
[15:02] <diverse_izzue> looks sweet, but this is my primary machine, playing so much with the boot loader is asking for trouble *g
[15:03] <duffydack> diverse_izzue, thats why ive got a clonezilla backup of everything sat on my usb hd :)
[15:06] <duffydack> diverse_izzue, could use wubi I guess?
[15:12] <diverse_izzue> i do regular backups too, still, one easily looses a lot of time restoring
[15:41] <simba_> sudo lshw messed up my screen (all turned green), had to do <ctrl><alt><f1>,<ctrl><alt><f7> to fix it...anyone else have this?
[15:44] <penguin42> simba_: It's OK here
[15:44] <Adys> all fine here too
[15:45] <simba_> what gfx caru u use?
[15:45] <simba_> i have a intel...
[15:45] <Adys> nvidia 9800gtx+
[15:45] <penguin42> mine is radeon
[15:46] <xguru> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/+archive/ppa   <-- added this ppa updated and nothing is listed to upgrade.  Any ideas?
[15:46] <simba_> anyone using intel i915 driver?
[15:47] <charlie-tca> xguru: packages should already be in lucid, then.
[15:48] <xguru> http://www.clickonf5.org/linux/ubuntu-lucid-windows-aero-style-transparent-look/6038  <--  desktop doesn't look like this...is there something i have to enable?
[17:07] <ryanpg> is the daily build installer working for 32 bit intel?
[17:24] <simba_> where to put x11vnc line in lucid for being able to connect at login?
[17:26] <BluesKaj> simba_, /etc/init.d but you need to make it into a script
[17:27] <penguin42> simba_: Do you mean so that you can login via vnc or do you mean so that when you do login it immediately starts?
[17:28] <penguin42> the two are quite different
[17:28] <simba_> BluesKaj, it used to be just a line in gdm.conf just afther path....
[17:29] <BluesKaj> then try that
[17:29] <simba_> penguin42, so i can use vnc when gdm gives login screen
[17:29] <penguin42> simba_: are you sure you want x11vnc? Another way to do the same thing is to run a VNC Xserver and then have gdm start on that X server as well as your default one?
[17:31] <simba_> yeah, that might be better, just used to x11vnc sins it shows the same as the screen....but i dont need it now sins it will be a remote box in time
[17:31] <penguin42> having said that, I'm not sure what the right way to get gdm to start that is
[17:32] <simba_> if i am lucky the install script might do the job *hoping*
[17:39] <dupondje> any idea why my pidgin icon is messed up ? :) its now in a white box .. :)
[17:59] <simba_> this works for lucid to for x11vnc: http://flukylogs.blogspot.com/2009/11/setting-up-vnc-for-gdm-login.html
[18:45] <penguin42> simba_: so that gets you a vnc shared with the display you can see on your real display?
[18:49] <simba_> penguin42, yes
[18:51] <penguin42> simba_: It is possible to make them actually seperate displays by getting the gdm to start on an Xvncserver - but I can't find a modern recipy for that
[18:53] <knittl> i still don't have umlauts in my gnome-terminal
[18:53] <knittl> but i think i'm closer to the solution
[18:53] <knittl> some site mention to edit /etc/environment, but i wanted to ask if there is another solution?
[18:54] <knittl> it's only since karmic
[18:54] <knittl> und X/gdm seem to reset the locale, because my ttys work perfectly
[19:06] <yofel> yay, kde4.4 rc2 has a sane KDM backround again :)
[19:31] <koud> how can i remove the debug stuff from 10.04?
[19:32] <BUGabundo> what debug stuff?
[19:32] <yofel> koud: notify-osd?
[19:32] <koud> for the osd forexample
[19:32] <koud> yeah
[19:32] <BUGabundo> eheh
[19:32] <BUGabundo> I have a bug for it
[19:32] <BUGabundo> you need to change a flag
[19:33] <koud> where?
[19:33] <CosmiChaos> is deadline for compiz the partner upload deadline or the feature freeze?
[19:33] <BUGabundo>
[19:33] <BUGabundo> Open "/usr/share/dbus-1/services/org.freedesktop.Notifications.service"
[19:33] <BUGabundo> with a text editor and remove "DEBUG=1".
[19:35] <koud> thanks
[19:40] <Some_Person> Is it possible to install lucid onto an SD card?
[19:40] <Some_Person> I'd like to test it, but don't want to have it on my HD
[19:41] <CosmiChaos> when do they fix plymouth for nvidia ...
[19:59] <dupondje> distro[Ubuntu "luiid" 10004]
[19:59] <dupondje> bug in xchat ;)
[20:02] <bjsnider> luiid is a secret distro created by a shadowy agency that's drawing it's plans against us
[20:04] <crimsun> CosmiChaos: compiz is unrelated to partner
[20:04] <dupondje> don't know where the heck it gets luiid from :P
[20:04] <dupondje> Codename:	lucid
[20:04] <CosmiChaos> what is it related to then?
[20:04] <crimsun> patches accepted
[20:04] <dupondje> it parses this, and outputs luiid :)
[20:05] <crimsun> CosmiChaos: bug fixes have no deadline
[20:06] <crimsun> CosmiChaos: feature additions have the deadline of FeatureFreeze
[20:08] <BUGabundo> crimsun: today my sound started clipping... it was so nice two days ago :(
[20:10] <bjsnider> define clipping
[20:13] <dupondje> my sound skips also if I play from share, but it looks like Microsoft can't even have their cifs crap bugfree :(
[20:17] <BUGabundo> bjsnider: you still have your  64bits flash ppa?
[20:17] <BUGabundo> bjsnider: clipping: as in sound is so high it disorces
[20:17] <BUGabundo> *distorces
[20:18] <bjsnider> BUGabundo, if you want to use it can enable it for a brief period
[20:18] <prefrontal> just upgraded to lucid. i have an ip address, my nfs mount is working and I can ssh to this machine, but it is not connected to the internet. ping doesn't work for example
[20:19] <dupondje> route ?
[20:19] <prefrontal> ?
[20:20] <dupondje> whats output of route ?
[20:20] <BUGabundo> bjsnider: was looking for a more "permenant" ppa, so I can give it way to ppl having trouble with frlash wrapper
[20:21] <prefrontal> dupondje, http://pastebin.ca/raw/1764349
[20:21] <bjsnider> BUGabundo, get written permission from adobe for me and i'll do that
[20:21] <BUGabundo> :\
[20:22] <BUGabundo> right
[20:22] <BUGabundo> we can redistribute it
[20:22] <BUGabundo> :(
[20:22] <BUGabundo> F***
[20:22] <bjsnider> get me a document that will stand up in court
[20:22] <prefrontal> dupondje, here is the route output for a jaunty machine right next to this lucid one that is working correctly: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1764350
[20:23] <dupondje> seems like you get weird ip ? :p
[20:24] <prefrontal> these machines have dedicated ip addresses IIRC
[20:26] <bjsnider> default gateway should be a router's ip address. instead you've got a .c file or something
[20:27] <prefrontal> is that to me? a .c aka config file?
[20:28] <prefrontal> wait, the default gateway is not an ip address on the machine that works
[20:29] <prefrontal> `locate muen-gw-clipr.c' brings up nothing
[20:33] <bjsnider> well, th config file should contain the necessary ip address
[20:35] <bjsnider> routers for the past few years have been able to do a combination of static and dhcp, so you don't need to configure that on the client
[20:35] <bjsnider> you can use dhcp on the cient and configure the router to give it the same ip address every time
[20:35] <bjsnider> unless you have an old router
[20:36] <prefrontal> we have a dozen or so identically configured workstations. the rest of them are running jaunty, this new one is running lucid
[20:36] <prefrontal> i don't think i need to reconfigure anything on the router as the rest of them are working
[20:38] <prefrontal> it does seem plausible that a config file was overwritten on the workstation during do-release-upgrade. the question is, which one?
[20:40] <bjsnider> the muen-gw-clipr.c file exists on the lucid system?
[20:41] <prefrontal> it doesn't even exist on the jaunty system
[20:41] <prefrontal> muen-gw-clipr.c is the default gateway for the jaunty system
[20:42] <bjsnider> there are files in /etc/network
[20:43] <bjsnider> i'll bet if you compare them with the jaunty systems you'll find out what's wrong
[20:44] <bjsnider> i still think it would be better to configure the router, just simplify each client to use dhcp and back up the router settings to a jump drive
[20:52] <prefrontal> found it fixed it. somehow the dns nameserver was misconfiged
[20:52] <prefrontal> thanks bjsnider
[20:53] <acicula> Is couchdb installed by default on ubuntu? tried checking the dependency but that doesnt list ubuntu-desktop
[20:53] <yofel> acicula: ubuntu one uses it
[20:54] <acicula> hmm ok
[20:56] <acicula> not sure if i ever installed that, but i guess something pulled it in, thanx yofel
[20:56] <yofel> acicula: actually I might be wrong
[20:57] <yofel> seems like evolution depends on it
[20:57] <yofel> over evolution-couchdb
[20:59] <acicula> ah yeah, that makes sense
[21:10] <alex_mayorga> Does "Switch User..." works for anyone?
[21:18] <BUGabundo> alex_mayorga: with what GPU and drivers?
[21:26] <DanaG> hmm, I don't get a working plymouth.
[21:26] <DanaG> http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/bootcharts/EliteBook-lucid-20100124-4.png
[21:30] <BUGabundo> any one those?
[21:37] <yofel> grmbl
[21:37]  * yofel wants qt 4.6.1
[21:38] <RAOF> No, you can't have a pony :P
[21:38] <yofel> lol
[21:46] <dupondje> \0 = NULL ?
[22:06] <geser> no, NULL is a pointer while \0 is a char
[22:10] <Zer> Has anyone had libvirtd break for you? If so, how did you solve it?
[22:10] <Zer> (updating in the last month... I had it working fine in December)
[22:26] <dupondje> lol, there has been a bug in xchat-xsys for 2 years
[22:26] <dupondje> and nobody noticed it :)
[22:27] <bjsnider> xchat is almost a dead project, that's why
[22:28] <bjsnider> not to say people don't use it, because they do. but i don't think anybody's developing it
[22:29] <dupondje> http://codepad.org/G2fwwjSS => the bug is here, you have the last strcpy is wrong, but don't know how to solve it 100% correctly)
[22:29] <robin0800> dupondje: perhaps try quassel
[22:31] <Zer> Has anyone tried libvirtd with the current version? It seems to have broken.
[22:31] <alex_mayorga> BUGabundo, how can I tell?
[22:31] <BUGabundo> º?
[22:31] <BUGabundo> context please
[22:32] <alex_mayorga> I have an nvidia card, but I don't really know what driver is in use
[22:32] <alex_mayorga> Sunday January 24 2010, 15:09 - alex_mayorga: Does "Switch User..." works for anyone?
[22:32] <BUGabundo> oh
[22:32] <BUGabundo> now I remember
[22:33] <BUGabundo> I'll have to test it later
[22:33] <BUGabundo> I do know I can have two accounts loged int
[22:33] <BUGabundo> but its via FreeNX
[22:33] <DanaG> argh, virt-manager doesn't allow ARM VMs.
[22:34] <alex_mayorga> when I click switch user I see the user list, but when the pointer moves or a ke is pressed I get the password prompt for the user currently logged in
[22:34] <DanaG> And none of the ubuntu ARM stuff works for the stuff qemu can emulate.
[22:35] <Zer> DanaG, is virt-manager working for you at all in 10.04?
[22:36] <DanaG> It would connect, but didn't offer any button but "cancel" on the new-vm wizard.
[22:36] <Zer> Oh..
[22:36] <DanaG> libvirt-bin is the daemon -- had to be installed separately.
[22:44] <WeatherGod> alex_mayorga, that seems like there is some sort of permissions issue that got messed up
[22:44] <WeatherGod> I can't confirm it though, because I am only using a LiveCD version right now
[22:45] <alex_mayorga> I wonder what's the component I should bug report against
[22:45] <alex_mayorga> can anyone else reproduce?
[22:46] <alex_mayorga> BUGabundo: how do I tell what's the video driver in use?
[22:51] <BUGabundo> alex_mayorga: check out jockey
[22:52] <bjsnider> lsmod
[22:52] <bjsnider> check for nv, nouveau or nvidia
[22:52] <bjsnider> of course the module could be loaded but not in use
[22:54] <alex_mayorga> thanks, let me check
[22:56] <alex_mayorga> none of those show, so it's happening with the vesa driver I guess
[23:01] <rr_lap> is anyone using xchat?
[23:02] <charlie-tca> I have it usable. I switch between xchat and weechat right now.
[23:03] <rr_lap> charlie-tca, are your hilighted tabs acting up?
[23:03] <charlie-tca> yup
[23:03] <rr_lap> ok thought it was just me
[23:03] <rr_lap> is there a bug filed?
[23:03] <charlie-tca> bih yup
[23:03] <charlie-tca> bug 508297
[23:04] <charlie-tca> That's why I thought I would try weechat. Xchat is driving me nuts
[23:05] <Sarvatt> tree view works fine still
[23:05] <crimsun> BUGabundo: I'm not sure what that means, but you definitely need to give me alsa-info.sh output when that symptom occurs, because I need both the HDA codec dump and the mixer settings
[23:07] <crimsun> BUGabundo: here are general steps to troubleshoot: 1. check PA's volume.  2. check the amp val for your stereo-out mixer widget.  3. check the verbose PA log.
[23:07] <alex_mayorga> so no-one here switch users, ever?
[23:07] <Zer> Hmm.
[23:07] <Zer> It *appears* that if you use virt-manager, and have a CDROM drive with no ISO connected,
[23:07] <Zer> the VM will not start.
[23:07] <Sarvatt> its broken with plymouth right now alex_mayorga
[23:08] <BUGabundo> crimsun: thanks. I check both 1st. I usually do, before reporting
[23:08] <Zer> If you remove that CDROM drive, it will. Last month's version did not do that :)
[23:08] <alex_mayorga> Sarvatt, Thanks! No need to report then? Is there a bug #?
[23:08] <BUGabundo> wanna now the funny part, no longer happening ... it _fixed_ it self.... I hate this bugs
[23:08] <Sarvatt> disable splash from your kernel command line and it'll work normal, or use log out applet for a few days
[23:08] <Sarvatt> yeah there are a bunch but i dont have any handy at the moment, i'm sorry :(
[23:09] <Sarvatt> will get back to you when i get home if you havent found one
[23:09] <Zer> Yep, getting rid of uninserted CDROM drives makes libvirt work again
[23:09] <crimsun> BUGabundo: please, just get me the requested info when it next occurs, because I can't troubleshoot lack-of-symptom
[23:10] <WeatherGod> crimsun, just letting you know... that system bell bug report got upstreamed by one of the reporters
[23:10] <BUGabundo> I know I know Daniel...
[23:10] <crimsun> WeatherGod: as it should have been.
[23:10] <crimsun> WeatherGod: I don't care much for GNOME bugs, as that lies outside my resource allocation.
[23:10] <alex_mayorga> Sarvatt: thanks, much appreciated
[23:11] <Sarvatt> alex_mayorga: if you use the log out applet in gnome instead of the indicator-applet-session's switch user it'll work even with plymouth for now though
[23:11] <WeatherGod> crimsun, yeah, kinda figured, but this one was so messy, it was hard to determine where the fault lies
[23:11] <Sarvatt> do you get kicked to a VT with the mouse still functional?
[23:11] <crimsun> WeatherGod: it won't even be remotely resolvable until Ubuntu gains a 2.6.34 kernel
[23:11] <alex_mayorga> Sarvatt, unfortunately I don't have much space for yet another applet :)
[23:12] <WeatherGod> crimsun, so, that will be 10.10?
[23:12] <alex_mayorga> Sarvatt, no I get kicked to the user logged unlock screen
[23:12] <crimsun> WeatherGod: no idea
[23:12] <alex_mayorga> over and over
[23:12] <crimsun> WeatherGod: I have no idea what sorts of regressions will be in whatever 10.10 ships
[23:12] <Sarvatt> ah and it doesn't go farther?
[23:13] <alex_mayorga> DanaG: how's your crusade against notify going?
[23:13] <WeatherGod> crimsun, guess we will have to wait and see
[23:13] <DanaG> eh, I just use notification-daemon.
[23:13] <Sarvatt> alex_mayorga: it might not be the same bug then, what GPU are you using? the plymouth one is only really affecting intel
[23:14] <DanaG> Though, oddly enough, brightness control doesn't work in gnome-power-manager.
[23:14] <DanaG> The ubuntu devs must've done something to break it when not using notify-osd.
[23:14] <alex_mayorga> Sarvatt: the laptop has an nvidia chip, but I don't think the driver is in use
[23:14] <Sarvatt> you dont see the splash when you boot up do you?
[23:15] <Sarvatt> black screen with a ubuntu logo in the middle
[23:15] <crimsun> DanaG: might want to ping them during the workweek in #ubuntu-desktop, then.
[23:15] <Sarvatt> yeah doesn't seem like the same bug, sorry to throw you off alex_mayorga
[23:15] <bjsnider> DanaG, you're on a crusade to stop notify-osd before it kills again?
[23:15] <crimsun> (I doubt there's any sort of conspiracy, but people love to make up all sorts of FUD ;)
[23:16] <alex_mayorga> Sarvatt: no splash, I see text
[23:18] <alex_mayorga> my angst with notify-osd is I don't get *any* configuration controls, but they keep saying thats a feature not a bug :S
[23:18] <WeatherGod> I am actually dealing with a bug report right now about the notify-osd...
[23:18] <WeatherGod> the guy is convinced that having the osd disappear on hover is a bug
[23:18] <BUGabundo> bjsnider: not that I like to support DanaG, I do fell that notify-osd (that I didn't like that much when it came) is now taking tooooo much visual space, and not transparent enough
[23:19] <crimsun> point the OR to the design spec for notify-osd, and have him/her argue with macslow, then.
[23:19] <crimsun> (now that would be an interesting exchange)
[23:19] <DanaG> My argument is that it's supposed to make display time proportional to amount of text... but it doesn't.
[23:19] <WeatherGod> hmm, that's a good idea, maybe
[23:19] <RAOF> DanaG: Which is a bug, obviously.
[23:20] <DanaG> A 3-word notification and a 30-word notification, both sent via notify-send, will both show for 10 seconds.
[23:20] <DanaG> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=544750
[23:20] <DanaG> not sure why that report is on debian.
[23:20] <RAOF> C isn't *that* hard to learn; implement that part of the spec :)
[23:20] <DanaG> https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+bug/423314
[23:21] <DanaG> I say, they should stop ignoring the time they're asked to display the thing for!
[23:21] <DanaG> At least within reason.
[23:21] <RAOF> Have you had that discussion with the ayatana folks?
[23:21] <DanaG> well, about the most I have is the comment on that bug report.
[23:21] <DanaG> And what does that name "Ayatana" mean, anyway?
[23:22] <alex_mayorga> WeatherGod: I tend to agree, usually when I move the mouse I'm trying to achieve a target
[23:22] <DanaG> and that blurring... augh, eye torture.
[23:22] <WeatherGod> yeah, and when using something like pidgin, and you have someone IM'ing you, the bubble stays up and gets in the  way
[23:23] <DanaG> stress-test: while (true); do notify-send this sucks; done
[23:23] <DanaG> that'll block notify-osd for 500 seconds.
[23:23] <RAOF> DanaG: Another part of the spec that isn't implmented, yes.
[23:23] <DanaG> 50 is the maximum queue length.
[23:23] <DanaG> 10 seconds is the duration.
[23:23] <WeatherGod> heh
[23:24] <BUGabundo> DanaG: the blur SUCKs
[23:24] <BUGabundo> mouse over does NOTHING
[23:24] <DanaG> Run that on MacSlow's computer some time when he's not watching. =þ
[23:24] <DanaG> Then ctrl-c it after a moment.
[23:24] <WeatherGod> what blur?
[23:24] <alex_mayorga> specially when the users come from win32 and they're so used to click the msn "toaster" to act on it
[23:25] <RAOF> DanaG: While there's certainly stuff of value in what you're saying, bitching about it in #ubuntu+1 isn't really going to do anything other than make you feel better.
[23:26] <DanaG> And the bugtracker seems ignored, as well.
[23:26] <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, bug reports do nothing also
[23:26] <alex_mayorga> DanaG, let's go to #ayatana I'll back you up :)
[23:26] <alex_mayorga> seems like the group is pretty sure,  they're doing it right
[23:26] <charlie-tca> Wish you more luck than I had with ayatana
[23:26] <alex_mayorga> yeah! I tried and failed once too
[23:27] <DanaG> eh, I don't feel like arguing with anyone right now... have homework to do.
[23:27] <crimsun> folks, hint: patches (or git/bzr branches) speak louder than any amount of bitching on irc.
[23:27] <DanaG> yay, raytracing.  NO recursion yet.
[23:27] <DanaG> oops, didn't mean to double-caps.
[23:27] <WeatherGod> crimsun, so true
[23:27] <alex_mayorga> show those notification to a win32 grandma and try to explain they'll dissipate when she tries to attain them  with the mouse
[23:28] <WeatherGod> but, why should they try and click on them?
[23:28] <alex_mayorga> because that's the way they're used to interact with notifications
[23:29] <RAOF> I *think* you'll find that the way they're used to interacting with notifications is to look at them and ignore them.
[23:29] <DanaG> I'm not arguing with the noninteractivity, per se... just with the ludicrous minimum time.
[23:29] <alex_mayorga> also when I click on the envelope and click gwibber it's window won't raise
[23:30] <RAOF> alex_mayorga: Buggy behaivour isn't a good critique of the specification :)
[23:31] <alex_mayorga> as I don't think I have the skill set to branch that right now and these being an ubuntu only thing I'm eying other distros, I guess it's easier
[23:34] <alex_mayorga> RAOF, last time I checked I think plenty of people had spoken on their wiki, mail list, etc.
[23:34] <alex_mayorga> but even when put against a clear user case they refuse to listen
[23:34] <Zer> I think you can turn off a lot of those notification popups
[23:35] <Zer> That said, they are incredibly stupid. In Pidgin or whatnot, there should be a right click option "Notify me when this person is online"
[23:35] <Zer> and it should NEVER show me one in any other case
[23:35] <alex_mayorga> but what do a user know I guess they're the usability masters for a reason
[23:35] <Zer> 99% of people, you really don't care
[23:36] <RAOF> alex_mayorga: I suspect they'd say that anything that requires an action isn't a notification, so it's out of spec for notify-osd.
[23:36] <Zer> It comes from the belief that 'more information is better'. One page versus five hundred page manual, some people will say the latter is better because it has more information. They should not be allowed near any GUI code :)
[23:37] <WeatherGod> Zer, your suggetion sounds more like a wishlist item for Pidgin
[23:37] <RAOF> alex_mayorga: Can you remember the use-case you were thinking of?
[23:37] <Zer> Perhaps. All notifications are like that though. :)
[23:37] <arand> You can do some fairly simple hacking of notify-osd http://mupuf.org/blog/article/22/ if you look around there's min_fade_time as well, still doesn't
[23:37] <Zer> People who think what their app has to say is so worthwhile that it should interrupt the flow of my work
[23:37] <BUGabundo> RD @TravisB: EVERYONE, IN AN HTML5-CAPABLE BROWSER, DO THIS!  http://www.chromeexperiments.com/detail/browser-pong/
[23:37] <BUGabundo> EVERYONE, IN AN HTML5-CAPABLE BROWSER, DO THIS!  http://www.chromeexperiments.com/detail/browser-pong/
[23:38] <DanaG> gaaack.  once is enough.  And lay off the cruise-control.  =þ
[23:38] <BUGabundo> oops... sorry for the double post
[23:38] <DanaG> =þ
[23:38] <BUGabundo> slow pc
[23:38] <BUGabundo> I wonder if it is the game :\
[23:38] <alex_mayorga> RAOF, maybe is language barrier, but in Spanish or in my mind at least I get notified because I need to do something
[23:38] <alex_mayorga> a fire alarm is a notification and you must act on it
[23:39] <DanaG> Would it kill them to make those #defines into gconf keys?
[23:39] <WeatherGod> heh... yeah, I am gonna want to walk away from the computer during a fire alarm
[23:40] <DanaG> I also wish they'd unbreak gnome power manager.
[23:40] <Zer> alex that is exactly right
[23:40] <DanaG> It seems to be waiting for god-only-knows what, before actually changing brightness.
[23:40] <alex_mayorga> BUGabundo, great now I lost my train of thinking :)
[23:40] <BUGabundo> ahahahaha
[23:40] <arand> DanaG: Not sure, I'm guessing it's less than trivial to migrate them though, having to read and store them, etc...
[23:41] <WeatherGod> the brightness controls have always been messed up
[23:41] <alex_mayorga> and they don't let me pick what I get notified of
[23:41] <DanaG> Used to work fine before they tied it into notify-osd.
[23:41] <RAOF> DanaG: At least in part they're not gconf keys so that there's motivation to actually get the right behaviour.
[23:41] <RAOF> alex_mayorga: But notifications are transitory; if the notification means that you need to *do* something, and you miss it, what happens?
[23:41] <DanaG> I oughtta' try building g-p-m with those notify-osd patches disabled.
[23:42] <alex_mayorga> RAOF, they get conveniently stored in their envelope icon
[23:42] <WeatherGod> RAOF: I think you hit the nail on the head
[23:42] <RAOF> alex_mayorga: So why does the notification itself need actions if they're always available from the envelope?
[23:43] <alex_mayorga> my beef is that most of the times I'm there to respond so why should I wait for it to disappear and get "filed"
[23:43] <Zer> It's to let you know the icon just appeared
[23:43] <WeatherGod> oh, so THAT'S what that envelope is for?
[23:43] <RAOF> alex_mayorga: A notification, in the sense of notify-osd (and notification-daemon, really) is “Hi!  This thing that you're hopefully interested in happened”
[23:43] <Zer> RAOF: Well, it needs an option "I'm not interested, go away and never come back" because developers think their apps matter more than they do
[23:44] <Zer> On Windows nobody likes system tray icons that I've met
[23:44] <Zer> because things lurking there tend to harass you about this or that
[23:44] <WeatherGod> Zer, that should be controled from the apps
[23:44] <DanaG> or if you're feeling angry, it's "**** off and die".
[23:44] <DanaG> As I say about audio ads.
[23:44] <Zer> WeatherGod: Have you ever watched someone use a PC, and the popup comes up, and they struggle to figure out how to make it go away? Often those have a checkbox "Don't ask me again" but nobody even _reads_ that
[23:44] <RAOF> Zer: That's an idea that I'd guess the DX team would be receptive to.  As long as you could implement the configuration in a sensible way.
[23:44] <Zer> They just get irritated about it, day in and day out, for years
[23:45] <WeatherGod> for Windows, you mean... yes, because it keeps coming back and requires my interaction to make it go away
[23:45] <WeatherGod> notifications are tempoarary, though, and always goes away
[23:46] <arand> I wonder if it would be possible to allow a three-grade verbosity of notifications or something...
[23:46] <Zer> Well, most people use Windows, but the principle there is the same in most cases... if they queue up I will have a hard time seeing under them etc
[23:46] <WeatherGod> right, which is why they now disappear on hover
[23:46] <Zer> I'm not saying 'because it requires user interaction', it's that when people are using a program and something else pops up, whatever it is, the instant reaction is 'go away'
[23:46] <RAOF> arand: Absolutely; there are currently three grades of notification urgency - low, high, critical (IIRC).
[23:46] <Zer> Not 'ooh information'. It won't even get read
[23:47] <WeatherGod> I love it for Pidgin on my UNR
[23:47] <WeatherGod> I can still see messages to me, even though the chat window isn't in focus
[23:47] <arand> RAOF: Yea, true, but that only affect the ordering, right?
[23:47] <Zer> I am just saying, all notifications, individually, should be explicitly opt-in, unless it's something horribly, horribly important
[23:48] <Zer> For instance, a checkbox 'Notify me when X logs in'. Never on by default
[23:48] <Zer> That way, the person reading them actually expects them, and reacts positively since they asked for it
[23:48] <WeatherGod> Zer, I can  set Pidgin to not notify me for all users
[23:48] <RAOF> arand: There's no reason why you couldn't have a system-wide setting to only show “high” & “critical” when you're busy; notify-osd currently does some of this, with presentation mode.
[23:48] <WeatherGod> you are asking for a wishlist, I suggest you file it
[23:48] <WeatherGod> it is a good suggestion
[23:49] <alex_mayorga> RAOF: yes they do but they chose the importance for me
[23:49] <Zer> Hmm I'll go look. By the way, I noticed that the Ubuntu OpenSSL version is before that 'renegotiation bug' was discovered/patched/whatever. Does it still suffer from it?
[23:49] <alex_mayorga> it might be nonsensical, but a twitter mention is critical to me
[23:50] <crimsun> Zer: more context, please. Which Ubuntu release?
[23:50] <RAOF> alex_mayorga: You could potentially have application-level options for that, but I think that use-case is basically a huge outlier.
[23:50] <Zer> All of them, really
[23:50] <arand> RAOF: exactly... hm I didn't know about presentation mode, is that *supposed* to make it not brute-force harass fullscreen apps?
[23:51] <RAOF> arand: I'm not sure what you mean by that, but presentation mode should kick in when you're running a fullscreen app, yes.
[23:51] <Zer> Actually I take that back, 10.04 has a recent one
[23:51] <Zer> 9.10 is still back at g. alex: That's what I mean, it ought to, in all cases, be something you told it to notify you of
[23:51] <dupondje> distro[Ubuntu "lucid" 10.04]
[23:52] <dupondje> hell yea :P
[23:52] <crimsun> Zer: which CVE? 2009-4355?
[23:52] <alex_mayorga> RAOF: but as I read the specification configurability is not even planned
[23:52] <arand> RAOF: Dunno if it's improved in KK/LL but way back here in jaunty, fullscreen apps jumps and twists whenever notifications kick in..
[23:53] <RAOF> alex_mayorga: The ability to, in some central place, set the importance of every notification you have ever seen?  No, I don't think that's likely to be implemented.
[23:53] <alex_mayorga> I know caring about twitter mentions is nonsense, but that's how most people contact me these days
[23:53] <Zer> crimsun: I'm not a security researcher, so I don't know the specifics, but I remember reading on some site that there was an issue with renegotiation
[23:53] <RAOF> The individual apps are perfectly capable of setting the importance of their notifications; that's where such options should go.
[23:54] <WeatherGod> Zer, yeah, it was a MITM attack
[23:54] <Zer> and it was definitely more recent than 0.9.8g, though, that might be patched I suppose
[23:54] <RAOF> Zer: I'd check the changelog; the security team is generally pretty good with stuff like that.
[23:54] <Zer> RAOF: That just adds another option. Then, on both the notify end and on the program end, the user has to specify an importance, instead of just 'tell me'
[23:55] <WeatherGod> Zer, you could intercept a SSL connection and splice a relay to continue it or something like that
[23:55] <RAOF> Zer: Both the notify end & program end?  I was thinking just on the program end.  But I agree; I don't think it's a particularly valuable option.
[23:55] <alex_mayorga> RAOF, so for now I should be bugging gwibber and not notify-osd?
[23:56] <Zer> Yeah I agree, programs ought to just behave
[23:56] <RAOF> alex_mayorga: I don't see why notify-osd would ever implement “let me override the importance for $THESE notifications”.
[23:56] <RAOF> Zer: Right.
[23:58] <WeatherGod> anybody know where I should file a UNR-only bug?
[23:58] <RAOF> There may be some situations where the application having an option to mark a particular class of notifications as “important” - for your pideon example, maybe there'd be an “important” modifier to the “show me when this user logs on” option, that'd set the priority and additionally stick a message in the messaging-menu, too.
[23:59] <RAOF> That might be a bit ugly.
[23:59] <Zer> To what end?
[23:59] <Zer> Either they need to know or they don't
[23:59] <Zer> Checkbox :)
[23:59] <RAOF> Actually, the modifier would be “Show this even when I'm busy”.


[02:23] <cjohnston> daker: I believe you have commit rights to Summit, I'm fine with you approving things for merging
[02:25] <cjohnston> I'm almost willing to bet that mhall119 feels the same way
[03:05] <mhall119> +1
[04:37] <nigelb> +1


[05:06] <mborzecki> morning
[06:08] <pstolowski> morning
[06:41] <zyga> good morning
[06:43] <mborzecki> pstolowski: zyga: hey
[06:45] <zyga> happy Friday guys :)
[06:46] <mvo> happy friday zyga
[07:07] <mvo> pstolowski: good morning and thanks for your review for 10514!
[07:07] <pstolowski> mvo: hey, yw!
[07:35] <mborzecki> heh, i have so many tabs open that i can't find the ones with half done reviews
[07:35] <mborzecki> and the other half is about bpf :/
[07:35] <mvo> mborzecki: haha and good morning!
[07:35] <mborzecki> mvo: hey
[07:49]  * pstolowski physio
[08:53] <pstolowski> re
[10:40] <ijohnson[m]> morning folks
[10:42] <pstolowski> hej ijohnson[m]
[10:42] <ijohnson[m]> o/
[10:42] <ijohnson[m]> mvo: pedronis: can y'all sudo land https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/10437 ?
[10:44] <pedronis> ijohnson[m]: done
[10:44] <ijohnson[m]> \o/ yay thanks pedronis
[10:54] <pstolowski> heh, --proceed outside of hooks is more surprising than i originally thought, i had 3 ohhhh...a-ha! moments already. fun
[11:11] <pstolowski> and it's here https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/10515
[11:14] <mardy> hi!
[11:14] <ijohnson[m]> hey mardy
[11:17] <mardy> ijohnson[m]: FYI: https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/3545
[11:18] <ijohnson[m]> mardy: nice looks good! You might want to mention in that PR the PR which added support to snapd and what major version number we expect to see snap_microk8s support released in
[11:27] <mardy> ijohnson[m]: which is... 2.52?
[11:28] <ijohnson[m]> mardy: mmm yes I think so, 2.52 hasn't been branched yet
[11:33] <ijohnson[m]> it seems that refresh-delta fails pretty much 100% of the time on amazon-linux2 and centos-7, which is weird if the store was returning incorrect data, wouldn't it return it for all systems?
[11:47] <pedronis> ijohnson[m]: maybe it's an issue with the log searching instead?  fwiw they say they don't support --sync
[11:47] <pedronis> not sure why/what would have changed though
[11:47] <pedronis> recently
[11:47] <ijohnson[m]> ohhh good point tbh I didn't read the failures I just assumed it was related
[11:47]  * ijohnson[m] goes to actually read the failures
[11:51] <ijohnson[m]> pedronis: no it is actually failing to apply the delta: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/j3yjkNX2Mf/
[11:51] <ijohnson[m]> well it says "failed to remove partial delta target", not sure exactly what that means
[11:52] <pedronis> it sounds weird,  anyway other option is the version of xdelta ?
[11:52] <ijohnson[m]> yeah could be maybe
[11:54] <pedronis> but it's also weird because it doesn't seem to happen all the times, no?
[11:54] <ijohnson[m]> it seems to happen all the time on prs I want to land :-(
[11:55] <pedronis> maybe it is happening all the time, anyway next thing to check would be to check xdelta3 version and run the xdelta3 manually I suppose
[11:55] <pedronis> on those two, and for comparison on one of the passing ones
[11:55] <ijohnson[m]> yes, I can take a look this afternoon at it
[11:56] <ijohnson[m]> pedronis: in other news, the failures on https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/10165 are unrelated, can you land it? I made the change you suggested
[11:56] <pedronis> ijohnson[m]: will do, thx
[11:57] <ijohnson[m]> there was an errant failure of the uc20-recovery test after I made that change, but it was just when it didn't come back after the reboot and it went away after a retry so I don't think it's related to the systemctl chmod change I made
[12:00] <pedronis> I suppose, it's the issue that pinning the hardware better would solve I suppose that sergio mentioned a long while ago? but needs no spread option keys
[12:00] <pedronis> s/no spread/new spread/
[12:01] <ijohnson[m]> maybe, I'm not sure anyone has deep dived into why sometimes uc20 doesn't come back after a reboot in gce since you need serial access which only sergio has afair
[12:01]  * ijohnson[m] quick break
[12:05] <pedronis> pstolowski: I didn't really review it yet, but I noticed the TODO in description: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/10515#issuecomment-877136959
[12:08] <pstolowski> pedronis: ah, ok, i misremembered, thanks
[12:49] <pedronis> ijohnson[m]: you planned to re-review https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/10438, correct? I gave a +1 but did not look at tests
[13:36] <ijohnson[m]> pedronis: yes I will re-review it today
[13:36] <pedronis> thx
[13:43] <mborzecki> heh, 3rd thunderstorm today
[13:45] <ijohnson[m]> should send some of those over here, we could use the extra rain
[13:57] <ijohnson[m]> degville: re the gpio unexport, indeed upon disconnection when this service is stopped (the systemd backend for interfaces will start the service mentioned here and stop it when it is disconnected) which triggers an unexport: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/blob/master/interfaces/builtin/gpio.go#L119
[13:58] <degville> ijohnson[m]: that's fantastic - thanks so much!
[14:02] <ijohnson[m]> np
[14:18] <ijohnson[m]> mardy: pedronis re-reviewed the snap start PR, lgtm
[15:30] <mardy>  \o/
[15:38] <zyga-mbp> futuretim in which sense?
[16:13] <futuretim> zyga-mbp: there are clearly a lot of "behind the scenes" things that happen that are not specified in APIs.. like perhaps closed APIs and/or closed UIs.
[16:15] <futuretim> even API docs for things that aren't for public consumption would be awesome. :)
[16:15] <futuretim> seems unlikely but no is definitely the answer if you don't ask!
[16:17] <zyga-mbp> futuretim: I don't know of any documentation for the store APIs
[16:17] <zyga-mbp> your best bet is snapcraft and snapd source code
[16:18] <futuretim> zyga-mbp: well these are things that wouldn't be covered by open source, trust me I've used those extensively!
[16:18] <zyga-mbp> futuretim ?
[16:18] <zyga-mbp> what kind of APIs are you talking about then
[16:19] <futuretim> like if I make someone a collaborator on a snap, what happens in the store to make that happen, i don't think I can discover that in source code
[16:20] <futuretim> there are many, many things.. need to reboot, brb
[23:00] <futuretim> what does it mean in snapd's REST API for system-info "managed: true if able to manage user accounts (?)."
[23:02] <futuretim> this is in the context of console_conf, so it's possible that is running where users aren't being managed by snapd?
[23:04] <futuretim> and I guess every core has its own build of snap?
[23:35] <ijohnson[m]> futuretim im already EOW but ask on Monday and I can explain
[23:35] <futuretim> ijohnson[m]: thanks, if I still have the question Monday I'll let you know, thanks1
[23:37]  * ijohnson[m] forgot to unlunch himself


[03:47] <darthanubis> Is there a way I can install ltsp WITHOUT Unity as the default kit? Can I choose which desktop enviroment?
[04:08] <jeffrubic> If I've originally installed a package via a ppa, then it's later added to the official ubuntu distro, is there anything I need to do to avoid conflicts between the two?
[04:39] <hotswaphdd> hi
[04:40] <hotswaphdd> anyone around?
[04:45] <tgm4883> hotswaphdd, it's better to just ask your question and wait
[08:01] <sliddjur> Hello I am completely new to ubuntu server. what text editors are there? i saw the command vi and nano?
[08:03] <sliddjur> ":q!CR	quit, discarding changes" how do i type :q!CR??
[08:03] <sliddjur> in vi
[08:18] <seekwill> sliddjur: Press ESC first, then :q!
[08:18] <seekwill> CR means "enter"
[12:37] <koopa58> Somewhere on my vps something keeps on sending e-mails to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>How can I find out what script is doing this? I'm using sSMTP with Sendgrid.com.
[12:37] <koopa58> I've set MAILTO="" inside crontab, but this was of no help.
[12:37] <koopa58> And sSMTP does not use /etc/aliases or /root/.forward
[12:38] <koopa58> Any suggestions very welcome, as my reputation on Sendgrid is dropping and the e-mails send to that address keep on bouncing.. :(
[13:14] <koolhead17> hello all
[13:21] <koopa58> Hello koolhead17
[13:23] <koolhead17> hi koolhead17
[13:23] <koolhead17> hi koopa58 :P
[13:24] <koopa58> :)
[13:40] <maxb> koopa58: pastebin an example message with full headers?
[14:00] <koopa58> maxb: I'm not sure what message is being sent.. I only see in sendgrid that it is sent to an address that does not work and thus bounces..
[14:01] <qman__> this is why it's better to use a real MTA
[14:01] <qman__> proper logging and diagnostics, ability to filter things out
[14:01] <koopa58> I do know this: http://serverfault.com/questions/421336/prevent-postmasterdomain-com-bounces-with-ssmtp-and-sendgrid
[14:03] <koopa58> Hope it is of any help, or anyone that might know where I can find more information..
[14:04] <qman__> you'll probably have better luck elsewhere, as postfix and exim are the ubuntu-supported MTAs
[14:05] <koopa58> qman__: Ah, but I need courier or dovecot with those as well or not?
[14:05] <qman__> no
[14:06] <qman__> courier and dovecot provide pop and imap
[14:06] <qman__> if you don't need those, don't install them
[14:07] <koopa58> Hmm.. can I use postfix like sSMTP so that all mail is handled via Sendgrid, and does Postfix then log more information?
[14:08] <qman__> I don't know anything about sendgrid, but postfix can be configured to use a smarthost if that's how you're doing it
[14:08] <qman__> and it can be configured with any number of additional filters, like anti-spam and antivirus
[14:08] <qman__> it's also one of the most widely used MTAs, so online documentation is very good
[14:10] <koopa58> I need something that is easy to setup :) and I only need to send e-mails. Also I've learned that I need to be able to retrieve local mails the system might send..
[14:11] <koopa58> Disabling courier would be dangerous?
[14:11] <qman__> it doesn't get much easier than postfix
[14:11] <qman__> apt-get install postfix, answer a few questions in debconf
[14:11] <qman__> courier is not needed at all
[14:12] <qman__> system mail is delivered locally, and can be retrieved using local mail clients
[14:12] <koopa58> Hmm.. someone said to me: "You need local mail delivery - just disabling Courier compromises the functionality / security your system - you need to replace it with a local MDA such as deliver / procmail"
[14:12] <koopa58> Do you know what they mean?
[14:13] <qman__> partly correct in that you still need local mail delivery
[14:14] <qman__> but removing software doesn't compromise security
[14:15] <koopa58> Aha okay, I also found out about the `mail` program, I could use that to retrieve local mail am I right? I have never seen anything come up in there so :)
[14:15] <qman__> yes
[14:15] <qman__> ssmtp probably doesn't do local mail delivery, so if you continued to do that you'd need procmail or similar
[14:15] <koopa58> Ah thanks for clearing that up :) so `mail` could handle the local mail
[14:15] <qman__> but postfix can do it all
[14:15] <koopa58> Oh okay
[14:16] <qman__> you can optionally use procmail with postfix, too
[14:16] <koopa58> And procmail is like `mail` a client to retrieve mail?
[14:17] <qman__> no
[14:17] <qman__> it's a delivery agent, for local mail
[14:17] <qman__> you still need a mail client like 'mail' to read it
[14:17] <koopa58> Okay, would I need procmail or is it only for filtering and such?
[14:18] <koopa58> Considering what I have setup in /etc/aliases and ~/.forward
[14:20] <qman__> not strictly necessary, just optional
[14:23] <koopa58> Okay, thanks :) I'll try out postfix.. hope I can catch the program that is sending to that address.. I assume postfix also would log in /var/log/mail.* ?
[14:25] <qman__> yes
[14:25] <qman__> it doesn't log the full content of the messages by default but you can turn it on
[14:25] <qman__> but it does log when and where it's sending them out of the box
[14:26] <koopa58> Ah okay, great! Thanks, I'll try it out
[14:52] <koopa58> Getting some more info with Postfix now.. but it still seems to use the address root@vps that does not exist.. http://pastebin.com/xiN1rX43 any ideas?
[14:58] <koopa58> It seems like there are 2 emails being sent
[18:03] <mwcampbell> Why are there two LXC templates for Ubuntu, "ubuntu" and "ubuntu-cloud"? What distinguishes them?
[18:06] <stgraber> ubuntu builds the template from scratch using debootstrap, ubuntu-cloud downloads a pre-built cloud image from the internet
[18:07] <mwcampbell> When should I prefer one LXC template over the other? For example, is ubuntu-cloud primarily intended for use with OpenStack?
[18:10] <stgraber> ubuntu-cloud is going to offer you a behaviour identical to the ubuntu cloud AMI that you'd run in EC2 or other cloud providers
[18:10] <stgraber> however it requires downloading the pre-built image, so if you already have a local mirror, it won't be able to use it
[18:11] <stgraber> also, the image might not be fully up to date, so you may need to apply updates afterwards
[18:11] <stgraber> the lxc-ubuntu template instead builds it locally for you, so if you have a mirror, it'll use it as the package source and it'll be perfectly up to date as it'll be building the template the first time you want to use it
[18:12] <mwcampbell> stgraber: Thanks for the explanation.
[18:12] <mwcampbell> I also see that lxc-ubuntu lets me share my user account and home directory between the host and container(s). That looks quite handy.
[18:13] <stgraber> yeah, lxc-ubuntu has a few more options than the lxc-ubuntu-cloud template
[18:14] <mwcampbell> So I'll use lxc-ubuntu-cloud if I want to test something that I intend to deploy to EC2 using the Ubuntu AMI
[18:14] <stgraber> yep, that'd be the best template to use for that case indeed


[01:00] <snail1> hads_: it's a great way for seeing which sets of people are feeling uncomfortable about their job security
[01:41] <G> snail1: all the people rushing to update their profiles etc?
[01:41] <snail1> G: yep :)
[07:55]  * olly_ is surprised to find a ~12 hour flight to europe
[07:55] <olly_> that'll be from wellington in florida then...
[16:56] <chilts> morning
[20:49] <ajmitch_> morning
[22:29] <olly_> morning
[22:32] <ibeardslee> morning


[01:50] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[06:16] <ducasse> good morning
[06:18] <lordievader> Good morning
[11:02] <lotuspsychje> tomreyn oerheks guiverc https://9to5linux.com/ubuntus-new-desktop-installer-is-now-available-for-public-testing-heres-how-to-test-it
[11:04] <guiverc> thanks, will look
[11:44] <Thaurwylth> Isn't it kind of mysterious and kind of non-mysterious that Firefox updates itself forcibly without input from the user? I mean it updates even though you don't run Apt.
[12:27] <JanC> sounds like you don't use the Ubuntu version of Firefox
[12:34] <ogra> yup, the official deb has the builtin update mechanism disabled
[13:50] <Thaurwylth> What does not using the Ubuntu version mean? I have definitely taken no steps to not use an Ubuntu version. Is it still possible to accidentally have a non-Ubuntu version?
[13:52] <Thaurwylth> This is my package, at least according to Apt: firefox/hirsute-updates,hirsute-security,now 90.0.2+build1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> amd64 [installed,automatic]
[13:58] <daftykins> grep /var/log/apt/history.log - more than likely an unattended upgrade or something else brought it up - it doesn't update itself
[14:31] <Thaurwylth> Well, at one point apt list --upgradable showed 'firefox' among the list of packages, then Firefox gave me a 'Has been updated in the background, please restart' prompt, after that Firefox has disappeared on the list after apt update apt list --upgradable.
[14:33] <daftykins> so check the log i mentioned
[14:40] <Thaurwylth> Commandline: /usr/bin/unattended-upgrade
[14:40] <Thaurwylth> Upgrade: firefox:amd64 (90.0+build1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>, 90.0.2+build1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>)
[14:40] <Thaurwylth> Commandline: /usr/bin/unattended-upgrade
[14:40] <Thaurwylth> Upgrade: firefox:amd64 (90.0+build1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>, 90.0.2+build1-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>)
[14:40] <Thaurwylth> Woooops.
[14:41] <Thaurwylth> So, next question, what does an unattended upgrade mean?
[14:41] <leftyfb> Thaurwylth: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AutomaticSecurityUpdates
[14:41] <daftykins> it happened and you didn't attend it ;D
[14:44] <Thaurwylth> Hmmmm, that sounds scary. Maybe it's okay in the grand scheme of things that there's such a feature.
[14:49] <daftykins> the good news is, it's Linux - configure it as you prefer
[14:49] <leftyfb> yeah, I hate when my system keeps the most popular outward facing attack vector up to date with security updates
[14:51] <daftykins> that was a really unfortunate tone to add to the convo