[00:00] <shauno> last time I tried it, it had none of that power-management nonsense either.  got a month out of it before I needed to break into my ipod to replace the battery
[00:00] <HazRPG> cool
[00:00] <HazRPG> wow, that puts new meaning to stuff I've been reading recently
[00:00] <freelore> what have you been reading?
[00:00] <HazRPG> hardware hacks
[00:00] <freelore> ah
[00:00] <ali1234> yeah power management is always the last thing to get implemented and it really hurts things like mobile distros
[00:00] <shauno> lp claims this rhythmbox thing was fixed in 10.04
[00:00] <ali1234> for example meego-n900
[00:01] <freelore> shauno, oh?
[00:01] <ali1234> no power management = can't use it as a phone
[00:01] <shauno> bug 164265 looks like the one?
[00:01] <ali1234> not a mobile phone anyway
[00:01] <shauno> power management should be the first thing they get working in mobile devices, not the last
[00:01] <slackthumbz> aye, that's why I'm sticking with maemo on my n900 till meego has matured
[00:02] <shauno> because a mobile device with a flat battery has zero features.
[00:02] <ali1234> shauno: i agree, and i told the meego-n900 people same on several occasions :)
[00:02] <ali1234> but seems like the people who can actually fix it (nokia) are more interested in making the n900 a development platform than an actual usable device
[00:03] <slackthumbz> well
[00:03] <slackthumbz> nokia have jumped into bed with MS
[00:03] <ali1234> they still have a lot of resources in meego
[00:03] <freelore> ali1234, you gotta emulate to accumulate
[00:03] <freelore> or something
[00:03] <slackthumbz> unsurprising considering that Stephen Elop is an ex-MS guy with a ton of shares in, you guessed it,MS
[00:03] <ali1234> wut?
[00:03] <ali1234> slackthumbz: he also sold macromedia to adobe :)
[00:04] <freelore> nokia making a mobile app platform
[00:04] <freelore> copying the trends
[00:04] <slackthumbz> ali1234: can't say I like the guy, he seems to be a complete idiot
[00:04] <freelore> n/m, i was rambling just then
[00:04] <ali1234> freelore: ah yeah, that's not what i mean
[00:04] <shauno> nokia's so hung up on this ecosystem thing they seem to think completely passed them by, but in the process has kinda forgot to ship any compelling products.  and they wonder where they're going wrong
[00:04] <ali1234> freelore: what i mean is they see it as a device for developers only, ie always tethered to a development box and power supply, so PM is not important
[00:05] <ali1234> that's the impression i get anyway
[00:05] <shauno> that's just going to teach third-party devs to be as bad as they are, if everyone's working to the assumption power's never an issue
[00:06] <ali1234> shauno: nothing new there :(
[00:06] <alexcockell> What - AGAIN?
[00:06] <ali1234> they will do that anyway
[00:06] <shauno> I've seen inside my phone.  it's 3/4 battery.  power is the only issue.
[00:06] <alexcockell> So a battery life of 1-2 days like with the N900?
[00:06] <ali1234> alexcockell: no
[00:07] <ali1234> alexcockell: a battery life of 1-2 hours and the CPU running at max all the time
[00:07] <alexcockell> What use is that?
[00:07] <slackthumbz> you might get 1 - 2 days if you hardly use it
[00:07] <alexcockell> I *USE* my N900..
[00:07] <slackthumbz> same
[00:07] <ali1234> no, because even if you don't use it, it will currently run the CPU at maximum power, and not power off any devices
[00:08] <ali1234> i'm sure it will get fixed eventually
[00:08] <slackthumbz> well, 1 - 2 days on maemo. I've not tried meego yet.
[00:08] <ali1234> but it should have been fixed first not last
[00:08]  * alexcockell facepalm
[00:08] <ali1234> if meego had the same PM as maemo it would be fine
[00:08] <ali1234> but currently it has none at all
[00:08] <ali1234> (on n900)
[00:08] <alexcockell> Umm - why on earth did they blow so much time changing all the substrate like power mgt etc?
[00:08] <alexcockell> and package mgt?
[00:09] <ali1234> alexcockell: because they wanted to just switch to using moblin and moblin used rpm
[00:09] <ali1234> meego is pretty much moblin renamed
[00:09] <hamitron> ali1234: weren't you suggesting I got a N900? ;/
[00:09] <ali1234> sure
[00:09] <slackthumbz> just don't use meego
[00:09] <hamitron> even though it is shit?
[00:09] <ali1234> maemo is OK
[00:09] <hamitron> poor
[00:09] <freelore> anyone got an opinion on the sansa clip+?
[00:10] <hamitron> ;/
[00:10] <slackthumbz> and the n900 is an awesome phone
[00:10] <ali1234> maemo isn't perfect but it mostly works and some parts of it are awesome true
[00:10] <ali1234> meego is still nowhere near ready on the n900 though
[00:10] <ali1234> remains to be seen what the nokia mystery device will be like
[00:10] <slackthumbz> physical keyboard + xterm on a phone is incredibly handy for me
[00:10] <freelore> haven't nokia jumped into bed with ms + wp7?
[00:10] <ali1234> yes
[00:11] <slackthumbz> ali1234: whatever it is it'll run WP&
[00:11] <slackthumbz> wp7*
[00:11] <ali1234> but they still are commited to releasing 1 meego device
[00:11] <hamitron> I don't need a phone to be a phone, but N900 costs a lot
[00:11] <hamitron> :/
[00:11] <slackthumbz> and therefore will be a total waste of hardware
[00:11] <ali1234> of course that could change... nobody really believes anything nokia says anymore
[00:11] <ali1234> also they have not even confirmed the 1 meego device will be a phone
[00:12] <ali1234> could be a tablet, could be a netbook, could be a digital TV receiver... could be some crazy device nobody even thought of
[00:12] <freelore> i think they have lost the plot
[00:12] <hamitron> they have to offer some higher end devices with other OS, purely to attract developers of apps for their low end phones?
[00:12] <HazRPG> shauno: bit late... but its like saying "the playstation has no games!"
[00:12] <alexcockell> My N900 is on a Carphone Warehouse O2 contract - before O2 reduced the 3G data limits
[00:12] <slackthumbz> alexcockell: mine too
[00:13] <freelore> what are they going to do with Qt now they are all but ms's hardware division?
[00:13] <shauno> HazRPG: I don't follow
[00:14] <ali1234> freelore: ironically, they are going to port it to android :)
[00:14] <hamitron> won't they need Qt for low end phones?
[00:14] <ali1234> no
[00:14] <freelore> ali1234, they sound desperate. trying anything, see what sticks.
[00:15] <ali1234> freelore: the irony is that Qt people wanted to port to android officially but couldn't because it would look odd for nokia... but now nokia is with MS, they can...
[00:15] <hamitron> aren't they intending to still ship symbian phones though?
[00:15] <ali1234> yes
[00:15] <ali1234> symbian isn;t low end
[00:15] <freelore> symbian has seen better days
[00:15] <shauno> I think desperate's a pretty apt word for it.  they've just seem the biggest cashcow in the market just completely overtake them overnight
[00:16] <hamitron> windows phone 7 does look interesting to be fair
[00:16] <ali1234> i prefer my symbian phone to my n900 for typical use
[00:16] <slackthumbz> hamitron: it's barely beta in terms of feature completeness
[00:16] <ali1234> the email client is miles better for example
[00:16] <hamitron> slackthumbz: and android is a moving target
[00:16] <slackthumbz> doesn't touch ios, android or even maemo
[00:16] <ali1234> (see earlier complaint about how nothing can handle my mailbox)
[00:17] <freelore> i've never seen a symbian phone that didn't feel underpowered
[00:17] <ali1234> symbian^3 runs super fast
[00:17] <ali1234> it's really smooth compared to maemo
[00:17] <hamitron> I like symbian the best tbh
[00:18] <ali1234> but stuff like S60 5e really ruined symbian's reputation
[00:18] <freelore> isn't symbian^3 the one thats not to be confused with the rather old symbian 3?
[00:18] <ali1234> the symbian numbering makes no sense at all
[00:18] <ali1234> don't even try to understand it
[00:19] <freelore> a bit like ferrari f1 cars
[00:19] <hamitron> or most cars ;/
[00:19] <ali1234> it makes even less sense than the way ati and nvidia number their video cards
[00:19] <hamitron> and cpu
[00:19] <hamitron> and gpu :D
[00:19] <freelore> or even apu
[00:20] <hamitron> android has really been over hyped though, imo
[00:20] <freelore> tho i thought apu had already been taken by the sound card people
[00:21] <hamitron> my symbian phone makes phone calls.... I can develop apps, also have an ovi store
[00:21] <freelore> ovi store... lol
[00:21] <freelore> its no apple app store
[00:21] <ali1234> yeah, ovi store... it's no fun
[00:21] <hamitron> ovi store is good tbh
[00:21] <ali1234> it has so many usability problems...
[00:21] <freelore> well, it works. put it that way.
[00:22] <hamitron> also get free sat nav
[00:22] <freelore> thats becoming standard everywhere
[00:22] <ali1234> the mapping tech they bought it pretty good
[00:22] <freelore> still prefer google maps though
[00:22] <hamitron> doesn't android need online access for google maps?
[00:22] <ali1234> yeah
[00:22] <hamitron> so no good on a budget
[00:22] <freelore> oh yeah mean offline sat nav?
[00:23] <hamitron> yeh, ovi maps is offline
[00:23] <freelore> *yeah = you
[00:23] <popey> there are offline maps apps on android
[00:23] <freelore> i didn't know that
[00:23] <ali1234> ovi maps is both
[00:23] <popey> most use openstreetmap
[00:23] <hamitron> popey: as good?
[00:23] <hamitron> ah, ok
[00:23] <ali1234> it will download maps you don't have, or you can preload them, and all the maps are free
[00:23] <popey> i never found ovi maps to be any good
[00:24] <ali1234> the ovi maps program on n900 suuuuuuuuucked
[00:24] <hamitron> I've travelled many miles with ovi maps
[00:24] <hamitron> :)
[00:24] <ali1234> the symbian one is much better
[00:24] <HazRPG> shauno: never, can't find where you said something similar but for different platforms
[00:25] <hamitron> main thing that puts me off android, is all the OS versions
[00:25] <freelore> yes, and the 'will i get the update' lottery
[00:25] <hamitron> I don't expect to have to upgrade OS so often
[00:26] <shauno> I still find that funny
[00:26] <shauno> apple tell you you're due 2 OS upgrades past what you bought, people get mad.
[00:26] <shauno> android leave you guessing ...
[00:26] <hamitron> both suck ;)
[00:26] <freelore> not forgetting the 'yes, the updates are coming.' rumours
[00:26]  * hamitron rubs his nokia ngage
[00:27]  * ali1234 listens to some fleetwood mac
[00:27] <freelore> i'm waiting for the iphone nano
[00:27] <freelore> you know itll happen
[00:27] <hamitron> no micro first?
[00:27] <hamitron> :/
[00:27] <dwatkins> freelore: I'd like a badge that's a phone
[00:28] <freelore> yeah, with a delta shield man!
[00:28] <freelore> and gold trim
[00:28] <hamitron> :)
[00:28] <hamitron> I want a phone with an i3 cpu
[00:29] <ali1234> why not atom?
[00:29] <ali1234> those are actually available
[00:29] <ali1234> not on a budget though
[00:29] <hamitron> i3 would double up as hand warmers
[00:29] <ali1234> so does atom :/
[00:29] <hamitron> :)
[00:29] <hamitron> a commamd line phone ftw
[00:29] <freelore> with a battery that comes in a stylish holdall
[00:30]  * HazRPG plays on his dreamcast
[00:30] <hamitron> use the "call" command to dial
[00:30] <ali1234> that's pretty much meego right now :)
[00:30] <hamitron> it has won me over then
[00:30] <hamitron> ;)
[00:30] <ali1234> i threatened to make a ncurses dialer interface for ofono before
[00:31] <ali1234> maybe i should actually do it
[00:31] <hamitron> if you have a phone so poor, nobody would want it, no gf can read private texts, nobody would want to steal it
[00:31] <dwatkins> There are plenty of terminal applications for Android, can you not dial from the command line?
[00:31] <hamitron> remove the GUI entirely!
[00:32] <freelore> if your gf reads your private texts, you should get a new gf
[00:32]  * dwatkins looks this up on iphone
[00:32] <dwatkins> freelore: why not just get texts she can read?
[00:32] <freelore> or maybe if she reads your private texts, you will *need* to get a new gf
[00:32] <hamitron> lucky for me I am so useless at using my phone, nobody ever texts me
[00:32] <freelore> dwatkins, i wasn't advocating it ;) just sayin'
[00:32] <slackthumbz> or you could, y'know, have a relationship built on trust and mutual respect for each others privacy...
[00:33] <hamitron> it is always orange txting me to say i have no qualified for magic numbers this month
[00:33] <hamitron> not*
[00:33] <freelore> slackthumbz, what are you -- some kinda new ager?
[00:33] <slackthumbz> lolwut
[00:33] <slackthumbz> I hate hippies
[00:33] <freelore> with your crazy ideas about trust and respect
[00:34] <slackthumbz> lulz
[00:34] <freelore> no place for that in a marriage
[00:34] <slackthumbz> crazy sandal-wearing motherf***ers
[00:34] <hamitron> the lack of trust makes it interesting anyway
[00:34] <hamitron> ;)
[00:34] <freelore> marriage is no less than mental warfare
[00:34] <slackthumbz> I've managed to avoid marriage quite succesfully so far
[00:35] <shauno> in a desperate attempt to drag this back to 'somewhat on-topic', I'll let you know I love my iphone, and think you're all nuts :)
[00:35] <popey> *cough*
[00:35] <hamitron> shauno: "love"? ;/
[00:35] <freelore> i was joking by the way ;)
[00:35] <slackthumbz> shauno: lol, I'll never buy a device I have 'jailbreak' just to use in a way that I want to.
[00:36]  * hamitron hands popey a bottle of calpol
[00:36] <slackthumbz> have to*
[00:36] <freelore> do you think a truly open phone will exist?
[00:37] <slackthumbz> perhaps, maemo isn't bad. If meego actually matures into a decent system then yes.
[00:37] <shauno> let me know when you find a telco that aren't evil, with an unhealthy dose of "lost, confused, and not entirely sure how to package the internet as minutes"
[00:37] <hamitron> if you build one, it mainly could. apart from a few IC
[00:37] <shauno> then we can worry about a phone that makes use of them :)
[00:37] <slackthumbz> heh
[00:38] <slackthumbz> a fair point
[00:38] <hamitron> isn't the interweb Mb now?
[00:38] <slackthumbz> mine is
[00:38] <slackthumbz> 1gb per month included in my conract
[00:38] <slackthumbz> contract*
[00:38] <hamitron> 1 quid for 24 hours use on mine iirc
[00:39] <shauno> hamitron: sure.  I get n many minutes, n many texts, and n many megs.  hence 'trying to package them as minutes'
[00:39] <freelore> i love the fair user stuff. "unlimited internet, limited to exactly 1000mb"
[00:39] <hamitron> but I just use my DSL through bluetooth
[00:39] <freelore> *use
[00:39] <shauno> and heaven forbid you try to use another country's internet
[00:39] <slackthumbz> heh, I'm in the philippines right now. Haven't seen any mobile broadband so far
[00:40] <shauno> (I did that once, that vacation cost me more in phone bills than hotels)
[00:40] <slackthumbz> but then again the infrastrtucture here is more 3rd world than yorkshire
[00:40] <hamitron> leave yorkshire out of it
[00:40] <hamitron> ;/
[00:40] <slackthumbz> monty python reference
[00:41] <freelore> and now for something completely different
[00:41] <slackthumbz> indeed
[00:41] <slackthumbz> g'night all
[00:41] <freelore> night slackthumbz
[00:41] <hamitron> like minecraft me thinks
[00:41] <hamitron> :)
[00:41] <freelore> i should be going too. i'll never be up in time to take the kids to school at this rate. night all.
[00:42] <hamitron> laters
[00:42] <freelore> thanks for all the help, btw
[00:42] <shauno> funny you should mention that, I'm losing my mind digging a huge subway tunnel atm :(
[00:42] <freelore> ;)
[00:42] <hamitron> shauno: where?
[00:42] <shauno> in the floor man
[00:46] <shauno> I gotta say, tunnels aren't very interesting endeavors.  it feels like being stuck in an Aniston commercial
[02:05] <shauno> so, if you dig a tunnel so far that it exceeds the render distance, it doesn't tail off into darkness.  the 'fog' is sky coloured (and night-coloured, and sunset colour, as appropriate at the time).
[02:05] <shauno> so it's official.  "the light at the end of the tunnel" is a bug.
[02:05] <ali1234> yea
[02:05] <ali1234> i have rooms that big
[02:06] <directhex> i built a map that big in half-life once :p
[02:06] <shauno> never played halflife :/
[02:07] <shauno> I'm fairly sporadic with games.  I'll play the same things for year on end, while the rest of the world passes me by
[02:08] <shauno> about the only pattern to them so far is that shooting people in the face just ain't my thing
[02:09] <shauno> (zombies, however, are perfectly acceptable.  it's not a fps thing.  just not a fan of war/reality-based shooters.  gimme quake :)
[06:06] <kaushal> hi
[06:06] <kaushal> Any good apps for task/event available in Ubuntu ?
[06:06] <kaushal> I mean task reminder
[06:43] <kaushal> checking in again for the query ?
[07:33] <popey> kaushal: it was 6AM when you asked, chances are people are asleep / commuting
[07:33] <kaushal> popey: apologies
[07:37] <kaushal> popey: I have tasque but it doesnot have popup or reminder
[07:37] <kaushal> Can you please suggest something ?
[07:38] <Myrtti> evolution?
[07:38] <kaushal> Myrtti: I do not use Evolution
[07:38] <kaushal> I mean any desktop apps
[07:38] <kaushal> anyways fine
[07:42] <MichealH`> Hmm... When I switched servers I didnt come here xP
[07:57] <AlanJenkins> morning all
[07:57] <AlanBell> morning
[07:58] <AlanJenkins> morning AlanBell hows things mate?
[07:59] <AlanJenkins> morning TheOpenSourcerer
[08:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> is it?
[08:08] <diplo> Morning
[08:15] <DJones> Happy Friday, almost the start of the weekend
[08:20] <MooDoo> well done AlanBell
[08:21] <MartijnVdS> \o
[08:40] <screen-x> morning :)
[08:41] <DJones> Heya screen-x
[08:42] <screen-x> morning DJones :)
[08:43] <screen-x> I'm feeling quite alert this morning, had 10 hours sleep! much better than the 4 I had yesterday.
[08:43] <screen-x> Also no phone interview to stress about today :)
[08:44] <DJones> That will certainly reduce the stress levels
[08:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> gah - screen-x I had about 2 hrs - have been awake feeling bloated and uncomfortable since about 02:30am... :-(
[08:47] <screen-x> TheOpenSourcerer: :(
[09:07] <daubers> Evening
[09:07] <daubers> Also, who released dutchie from the grammar prison?
[09:08] <danfish> wotcha all
[09:08] <daubers> o/
[09:09] <danfish> TheOpenSourcerer: it's a big day tomorrow - you can't afford to have Delhi Belly today!
[09:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> Better to get it out of the way today danfish
[09:10]  * TheOpenSourcerer is spinning up 4 new VMs for a customer (unfortunately they use CPanel & CentOS) but the host is Ubuntu :-)
[09:11] <dwatkins> I need to reinsall a server at work with Ubuntu, as I think it
[09:11] <dwatkins> will work much better than Fedora for various things including vmware.
[09:13]  * danfish has caught up with FLOSS Weekly and set up a Big Blue Button VM to mess around with
[09:13] <danfish> actually very painless and looks quite useful, though rather flash over dependent
[09:17] <shauno> odd question, but does anyone know if I should be concerned about penecillin alergies if a parent has the same? or does it not work like that
[09:22] <MartijnVdS> shauno: Ask a medical expert, like a doctor :)
[09:22] <shauno> heh, yeah, I know.  but I'm at work, and I'm never quite sure where/when to trust the internet
[09:23] <MartijnVdS> shauno: that's why you shouldn't ask the internet, but a doctor ;)
[09:23] <shauno> as far as I can tell, most sites I'm seeing are setup to take advertising dollars from hypochondriacs.  I'm more "nosey because I've never done this before"
[09:23] <danfish> shauno: no - there is no proven correlation
[09:23] <shauno> sweet, cheers
[09:24] <MartijnVdS> However, being alert for symptoms shouldn't matter :)
[09:24] <danfish> MartijnVdS: quite right
[09:45] <JamesTait> Happy Red Nose Day! *8OD
[09:49] <danfish> bejesus - we've that to look forwards to 2nite :(
[09:49] <screen-x> danfish: its not compulsasry, /me will be on the M4 for most of it..
[09:50] <Tommeh> TheOpenSourcerer: any v6 support in cPanel yet?
[09:53] <MartijnVdS> danfish: mini Dr Who episode \o/
[09:54] <danfish> MartijnVdS: that's more like it :)
[09:56]  * DJones would prefer it if the time comic relief was on was an extended DW episode with a mini comic relief segment in it :)
[09:57] <daubers> woot, new HDD for my laptop \o/
[09:57] <screen-x> morning daubers :)
[09:58] <daubers> screen-x: Quite probably, though my brain still feels like it's night :)
[09:58] <daubers> Also, morning :)
[09:58] <DJones> daubers: Still doing the Australian support?
[09:58] <daubers> DJones: No, end of a very long project. Just finishing getting the system running as the customer wants
[09:59] <DJones> daubers: Shame, you could have asked for a site visit
[09:59] <daubers> Discovered that my IPC stuff had issues yesterday
[09:59] <daubers> DJones: Possibly doing an install in Dubai in a couple of months
[09:59] <daubers> Which will mean a week out that way
[09:59] <daubers> Kinda half way to Aus :)
[10:00] <DJones> daubers: Thats true, when I went to oz years ago, there was a stopover in Dubai
[10:25] <czajkowski> aloha
[10:26] <shauno> morning
[10:26] <andylockran> is something broken on the internets?
[10:27] <dwatkins> yes
[10:28] <andylockran> dwatkins: more speficially?
[10:28] <bigcalm> Hi kids :)
[10:38] <bigcalm> andylockran: it is morraly broken
[10:38] <MartijnVdS> O NOES
[10:38] <shauno> just hows we likes it
[10:39] <dwatkins> andylockran: oh sorry, I'm sure that something is broken (my VPN connection for one thing) ;)
[10:39] <MartijnVdS> too many dirty pictures/minute?
[10:45] <iclebyte_work> anyone noticing problems with BT advertising a load of networks?
[10:51] <daubers> !logs
[10:55] <gil> Morning all - is anyone here using natty with the gnome 3 team ppa?
[10:57] <daubers> Argh!
[10:57] <daubers> I hate politics!
[10:57] <screen-x> anyone know when the census deadline is?
[10:58] <gil> screen-x you can do it online can't you?
[10:58] <screen-x> gil: yep
[10:59] <gil> I think it's ages from now
[10:59] <screen-x> but if it doesn't have a deadline, it's chances of being filled are low
[10:59] <gil> it's got vague legal threats attached to not filling it in, if that helps
[11:00] <screen-x> a little, maybe I'll use census day (the 27th) as the deadline
[11:02] <daubers> popey / Daviey / AlanBell Question: PoC or Team Leader. There's a lot of discussion on which throughout the past, which is confused by Davieys first meeting as whichever stating "<Daviey> and my first meeting as Leader / PoC", the wiki stating PoC, and popey was definatley PoC when he was in charge....?
[11:02]  * daubers has just scanned a 3 years of ML posts and the irc logs from 2008/9
[11:03] <AlanBell> an interesting question, just been talking to czajkowski about that
[11:03] <BigRedS> screen-x: sent by 31st march IIRC
[11:03] <Daviey> daubers, Wow, straight in there :)
[11:03] <daubers> AlanBell: Yeah, she manages to confuse things :)
[11:03] <AlanBell> I didn't realise there was that much of an important distinction
[11:03] <DJones> daubers: Going back to when Daviey took over from popey, I thought it was described as POC rather than team leader
[11:03] <Daviey> This is true...
[11:03] <screen-x> BigRedS: thanks.
[11:03] <daubers> DJones: I can't find anything written down that makes the distinction in the UK LoCo stuff
[11:03] <Daviey> Back before popey, when it was Nick - it was a Lead.
[11:03] <daubers> Hence digging through logs and lists
[11:04] <Daviey> I don't think popey chose for it to be a PoC.
[11:04] <DJones> daubers: Have you looked at this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto
[11:04] <daubers> DJones: Yes, but I wanted to see if we as a group had made a decision first :)
[11:04] <AlanBell> I thought the terminology changed globally at some point, but it was a new name for the same thing
[11:04] <Daviey> In some ways, it's a little dis-empowering - and a worthy question of being answered before the new fool takes over :).
[11:05] <Mez> anyone going to http://bringonipv6.com/
[11:06] <DJones> One of the differences seems to be that teams don't need a "team leader" but they do need a "point of contact"
[11:07] <daubers> Urgh... confused now
[11:07] <Daviey> Mez, Doesn't look that exciting, i'd be surprised if there is much meat there.
[11:08] <gil> so can anyone help me locate ligtk3.0-0? I have an upgrade for gucharmap but I can't do it because it needs libgtk3.0-0 which I can't seem to find anywhere :(
[11:08] <popey> 11:04:15 < Daviey> I don't think popey chose for it to be a PoC.
[11:08] <popey> I didnt
[11:08] <popey> the name was "changed" to PoC by people who held a meeting whilst I was on holiday
[11:08] <Mez> Daviey: free food though :P
[11:08] <Daviey> shortly prior to popey taking over IIRC.
[11:08] <Daviey> Mez, heh
[11:09] <daubers> I suppose the question here should be "Should we have a more formal leadership chain?" rather than the ad hoc people do what they want to do and we have a PoC to talk to the broader worls?
[11:09] <gord> gil, what version of ubuntu are you running?
[11:09] <gil> gord I am running natty with the gnome3 team ppa
[11:09] <popey> In Ubuntu projects we call them team leaders
[11:09] <popey> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct
[11:09] <Mez> Daviey: am tempted to go just to bitch @ AOL people :D
[11:09] <gord> gil, then you should have libgtk3.0-0
[11:10] <gil> gord I know :(
[11:10] <gord> gil, update?
[11:10] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Iain Cuthbertson] Getting a random wp-block by regex - http://www.myrant.net/2011/03/18/getting-a-random-wp-block-by-regex/
[11:10] <popey> I think PoC is a worthless moniker, a team _needs_ leadership
[11:10] <Daviey> I must say, something i found quite quickly is the ability to JFDI is significantly reduced with just a PoC
[11:10] <gil> gord the update fails because it can't find libgtk3.0-0 :(
[11:11] <Daviey> but as i suspect popey found, when you are in the hot seat  - it's perhaps inappropriate to change that.
[11:11] <gord> gil, remove the silly ppa - it may be doing stupid things
[11:11] <popey> yup
[11:11] <popey> it was "voted" by the "team"
[11:11] <popey> (in fact it was raised by one person at the meeting with very little discussion)
[11:11] <popey> that person now doesn't actually contribute to Ubuntu at all, and hasnt done for a year or more
[11:11] <daubers> Right, so what we need to do is define what a Team Leader should do, if there should be a PoC or some other components to the leadership grouping and then put a proposal _everywhere_ and get a meeting together about it?
[11:11] <popey> back seat drivers ftw
[11:11] <gil> gord - I have libgtk-3.0 from ubuntu but the gnome 3 team ppa which is supposed to be the semi-official ubuntu build for gnome 3 doesn't recognise it.... that's the crux of my problem I think :(
[11:12] <gord> gil, no such thing as semi official, ppa's can and will screw up your system
[11:12] <AlanBell> personally in general terms I think *any* role is what you make of it, not what happens to be on the business card
[11:12] <Daviey> I'm sorry I wasn't at the meeting last night.  FWIW, i'd fully support a proposal of it being a 'Leader' position.
[11:12] <gil> gord but it's the only way I can play with gnome 3 isn't it? :(
[11:13] <Daviey> AlanBell, Already have the biz cards? :)
[11:13] <daubers> AlanBell: Problem is, that when you're elected into a role, people should need to know what they're electing people to do?
[11:13] <gord> gil, get a virtual machine, get a gnome 3 live cd, play with it in that?
[11:13] <AlanBell> that is a reasonable point
[11:13] <Daviey> daubers, 'election' you say.... not seeing many candidates.
[11:14] <daubers> Daviey: Well... yes... but tha may have been predicated by the role being watered down
[11:14] <gil> gord that's one solution, but didn't I hear that natty won't really have a proper gnome 3 build anyhow?
[11:15] <AlanBell> I don't think a lack of a fierce election battle is neccessarily a problem
[11:15] <Daviey> daubers, either way,  I would like to get things moving.
[11:16]  * screen-x proposes daubers stands so that AlanBell can be voted in legitimately
[11:16] <bigcalm> Humm, fancy a cream egg now
[11:16] <gord> gil, depends what you mean by gnome3. if you mean the applications and libraries and such then we have all that. if you mean shell, then no thats not in natty
[11:16] <gil> gord yeah sorry, I meant the shell stuff, not just the underlying libraries
[11:17] <popey> Daviey: you want to get rid of AlanBell already :D
[11:19] <Daviey> popey, yeah - his face doesn't fit.
[11:19] <Daviey> =)
[11:21] <daubers> I would actually suggest the additional creation of a Team Lead role, alongside the PoC role
[11:21] <daubers> Since the PoC role seems to be more adminy in nature
[11:22] <daubers> the Team Lead should be the person going to conferences and what not and pushing the team to do things, where as the PoC should be a role to ensure that notices and what not get distributed to the group
[11:22] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/MeetingNotes/20070916Meeting
[11:22] <daubers> It also allows us a catchall should one of them disappear off the face of the earth
[11:24] <Daviey> daubers, i'd meh at that TBH.
[11:25] <gord> a point of contact should be an email address
[11:25] <daubers> Daviey: I dunno... I know some people who make fantastic administrators, but are rubbish leaders, and people who are the opposite. Know very few people in between
[11:25] <daubers> or who can do both well
[11:26] <daubers> Daviey: the other thing is, some people may want to get involved who would shy away from the limelight, this would give them a chance to do something without that issue :)
[11:27] <daubers> Reading that meeting through... it's not very clear what was decided
[11:27] <Daviey> gord, there is already a contact email address...
[11:27] <Daviey> :)
[11:27] <Daviey><EMAIL_ADDRESS>:)
[11:28] <AlanBell> so where does that go?
[11:28] <popey> wherever you want it to :)
[11:28] <Daviey> AlanBell, currently to me, but eager to change it
[11:28] <Daviey> But TBH, i don't think it's exactly used - due to poor doc
[11:29] <AlanBell> feel free to point it at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:29] <Daviey> I normally get direct contact via my normal address
[11:29] <Daviey> AlanBell, on it
[11:30] <AlanBell> OK, so I think the title should remain as Point of Contact
[11:30] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[11:31] <brobostigon> congrats AlanBell :)
[11:31] <AlanBell> and that role would include passing on details from the loco council, ordering CDs and additionally providing such leadership as is appropriate in a non-exclusive way
[11:31] <daubers> AlanBell: and remain leaderless? (that sounds sracastic, but it's not, it's a question :) )
[11:31] <Daviey> AlanBell, ygm
[11:32] <AlanBell> so I have, thanks Daviey
[11:32] <daubers> AlanBell: In that case, can we document the expected process to get things done? If we are to remain a collective type of leadership, we may end up on the defining quorum thing again
[11:33] <Daviey> FWIW, i would prefer a leader position over a PoC... but i won't mention it again.
[11:34] <daubers> Daviey: I think I concur, largley because we have no defined membership, so getting backing on decisions is difficult otherwise
[11:34] <AlanBell> leader is fine too, I don't mind
[11:35] <screen-x> "take me to your PoC" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
[11:36] <AlanBell> "take me to your Lizard" works well
[11:36] <Daviey> "take me to my daddy" also works.
[11:36] <daubers> The question is, how does the decision process work in each situation?
[11:37]  * Daviey adds<EMAIL_ADDRESS>-> alanbell
[11:37]  * popey adds<EMAIL_ADDRESS>-> daviey
[11:37] <Daviey> Ooo misses.
[11:41] <MartijnVdS> Are you my mummy?
[11:41] <brobostigon> lol
[11:42] <daubers> le sigh
[11:42]  * bigcalm wibbles
[11:42] <screen-x> daubers: appologies for derailing your sensible leadership process discussion :/
[11:44]  * daubers jots down some notes
[11:45] <popey> FRIDAY!
[11:45] <popey> etc
[11:45] <screen-x> and almost lunchtime at that
[11:47]  * mungojerry is mildly cheesed off :(
[11:47] <screen-x> sup mungojerry?
[11:47] <bigcalm> TTFCIF \o/
[11:48] <mungojerry> builders are sawing paving stones outside my window for the last 5 days..rather hard to concentrate on anything
[11:48] <mungojerry> loud music doesn't even drown it out
[11:48] <bigcalm> mungojerry: you need some decent cans
[11:48] <screen-x> closed cans
[11:48] <mungojerry> i need a holiday
[11:48] <daubers> Right, comments on this please http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/WhatTypeOfLeadership
[11:49] <daubers> comments/additions/edits/so on
[11:51] <screen-x> daubers: Idon't really have a comment, but would vote for combined, maybe a poll of some sort is needed?
[11:52] <daubers> screen-x: We should first decide if we need to do this, then it should go out to be discussed, then polled, then implimented
[11:52] <daubers> This is why I hate politics
[11:53] <daubers> (if you miss any of those steps, someone _will_ whinge and call the process into question :( )
[11:53] <mungojerry> wasn't there a meeting yesterday?
[11:53] <BigRedS> "Requires 2 people when we struggled for more than one nominee this year" is a bit of a weird 'con' without knowing why we struggled to get more than one
[11:54] <BigRedS> If the problem was that nobody wanted the workload, that's a pro for splitting it up, for example
[11:54] <daubers> mungojerry: Yup, I was actioned (apparently) to document the election process, but someone asked if we have a Team Leader or a PoC, which is an.... interesting point
[11:54] <brobostigon> BigRedS: or simply not having certain capabilites,
[11:54] <daubers> so before the process can be defined we really should define the positions
[11:54] <AlanBell> the positions are defined
[11:55] <AlanBell> we just need to decide which position(s) we are going to have
[11:55] <daubers> AlanBell: Yes, thats what I meant :)
[11:56] <BigRedS> brobostigon: yeah, or that. But if the problem is apathy, then splitting the position will obviously not help
[11:56] <seeker> Popey for president \o/
[11:56] <popey> hahah
[11:56] <popey> retro
[11:56] <brobostigon> BigRedS: very true, yes.
[11:57]  * seeker goes back to lurking
[11:58] <BigRedS> Are there any hoops I should be jumping through to get natty/unity working properly on virtualbox?
[11:58] <BigRedS> It looks like broken gtk currently
[11:58] <AlanBell> use virtualbox 4
[11:59] <AlanBell> install the guest additions
[11:59] <BigRedS> Ah, I've done the second but not the first
[12:05] <BigRedS> :(
[12:05] <BigRedS> this one's called "Oracle virtualbox"
[12:06] <directhex> moo
[12:06]  * directhex officially moos @ everyone
[12:06] <bigcalm> That time of day eh?
[12:07]  * BigRedS has never had an official moo before
[12:07] <bigcalm> What on earth shall I have for lunch?
[12:07] <daubers> Whens the next meeting?
[12:07] <directhex> bigcalm, fish!
[12:07] <MartijnVdS> Cow.
[12:07] <bigcalm> directhex: 'n chips?
[12:07] <directhex> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPNGaBdHAak
[12:08] <bigcalm> directhex: what happened to all of the fish? Somebody ate it
[12:08] <bigcalm> DJJ is a acting god!
[12:09] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: processed how?
[12:09] <bigcalm> s/a/an
[12:10] <daubers> Right, here is my plan for approval. If I send a mail to the list describing this issue with the etherpad for editing, and propose that it be discussed/finalised at the next meeting (on what we want from that list) and then we can go from there?
[12:10] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: randomly
[12:11] <bigcalm> Puppies!
[12:11] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: you're going to eat puppies?
[12:11]  * bigcalm pushes himself down the stairs
[12:11] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: Chinese or Korean? :)
[12:11] <BigRedS> daubers: sounds good. It strikes me that what's needed most is for someone to just decide how it's going to happen.
[12:11] <BigRedS> that might as well be you :)
[12:11] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: more tender than old dogs
[12:11] <daubers> BigRedS: And this is why we need a Leader!
[12:12] <BigRedS> daubers: yep!
[12:12] <daubers> (on a side note so no-one gets any ideas, I never intend to stand in a leadership capacity as I'm a rubbish leader)
[12:13] <MartijnVdS> daubers: Rubbish needs leaders too!
[12:14] <seeker> daubers: That never stopped Popey! :P
[12:16] <daubers> seeker: ooooh... harsh
[12:16] <seeker> popey knows I'm joking :P
[12:17] <MartijnVdS> seeker: I wouldn't be so sure.. :)
[12:18] <seeker> Well he hasn't kicked me yet
[12:20] <DJones> seeker: He's become more subtle than  that, he'll just move everybody else into a new channel :)
[12:20] <mungojerry> seeker maybe he's sending his mum over irl
[12:34] <AlanBell> daubers: make it so
[12:38] <BigRedS> Hm. I will never get used to this no-root-password-by-default thing, apparently
[12:42] <mungojerry> BigRedS: yeah i change that soon after install
[12:42] <daubers> Hmmm... issue....
[12:42] <daubers> new HDD is too fat to fit in my laptop
[12:42] <mungojerry> woops
[12:43] <screen-x> daubers: :(
[12:43]  * daubers for sees the purchase of a USB caddy...
[12:44] <daubers> Anyone got any recommendations for a USB caddy that will take 2.5" 1TB drive?
[12:47] <MartijnVdS> daubers: sata?
[12:50] <daubers> MartijnVdS: Yup
[12:50] <MartijnVdS> daubers: http://www.amazon.co.uk/IOMAX-SATA-Adapter-Power-Drive/dp/B001A5SK56/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300452614&sr=8-1 ?
[12:50] <MartijnVdS> or more like http://www.amazon.co.uk/IOMAX-External-Enclosure-Laptop-Powered/dp/B001EEQQ8Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1300452614&sr=8-2  ?
[12:53] <daubers> MartijnVdS: More like the second but with 1TB support
[12:54] <screen-x> daubers: are there names for the different heights?
[12:54] <daubers> screen-x: Don't think so...
[12:56] <MartijnVdS> screen-x: heights are in millimeters :)
[12:56] <screen-x> MartijnVdS: I was curious as I thought that the form factor is well defined
[12:56] <screen-x> so to have a disk that doesn't fit is a bit odd.
[12:57] <MartijnVdS> only height isn't well-defined
[12:57] <daubers> it's a 12.5mm high drive
[12:57] <shauno> 12.5 don't fit in mine :/
[12:57]  * screen-x defines NQSFF
[12:58] <MartijnVdS> daubers: http://www.storagedepot.co.uk/Hard-Drive-Cases/sc884/p912.aspx
[12:59] <daubers> MartijnVdS: Yeah, probably end up with an Icy Box, quite nice enclosures
[13:17] <mungojerry> well, there's nothing i'd be remotely interesting in buying from amazon's android app store http://www.androidnews.de/amazon-appstore-apps-prices-leak
[13:18]  * brobostigon has found a honeycomb build on xda for g1. amazing.
[13:19] <brobostigon> i am feeling adventurous, lets try it.
[13:23] <mungojerry> brobostigon: what do you have on it right now?
[13:23] <brobostigon> mungojerry: 2.2.1
[13:25] <gord> i don't really understand the logic behind amazons app store on android, i mean on ios it would make sense because their app store is more restrictive, but this is just gonna be a carbon copy with price differences that are never gonna matter
[13:26] <mungojerry> gord: yep, the only reason would be to make it more accessible to some people who can't use the google store to buy stuff right now
[13:26] <screen-x> will amazon have the same powers of remote removal/installation?
[13:26] <mungojerry> or they see a whole lot of devices out there and want slice of pie by undercutting by 20p for a while
[13:27] <mungojerry> i buy mp3's from amazon (via banshee :P ) , and they have become my first port of call for music purchases now
[13:28] <mungojerry> i've never paid for an app, maybe they hope for convenience, people like me might use their store to buy
[13:31] <screen-x> Now that my iphone 3g is no longer receiving updates, its jailbreak time :)
[13:31] <mungojerry> screen-x: why not?
[13:31] <screen-x> mungojerry: precisely :)
[13:32] <mungojerry> is it possible to get the updates on there somehow?
[13:32] <screen-x> I am particularly interested in tethering options
[13:32]  * daubers waits for debian to install on his laptop
[13:32] <mungojerry> screen-x: what tethering does apple allow OOTB?
[13:33] <screen-x> mungojerry: usb, but disabled by carrier
[13:33]  * mungojerry is experiencing some RHEL6/SL6 kickstart install issues :(
[13:33] <mungojerry> screen-x: wow, that sucks
[13:33] <brobostigon> mungojerry: fail, such a gui doesnt reallywork, on said small screen.
[13:33] <mungojerry> brobostigon: boo
[13:33] <screen-x> mungojerry: I think there maybe a BT option as well, can't remember.
[13:33]  * brobostigon  tries gingerbread again.
[13:34] <screen-x> brobostigon: you got honeycomb installed and tested in that time?
[13:34]  * mungojerry is waiting for the next release: haribo
[13:34] <brobostigon> screen-x: yes.
[13:34] <screen-x> mungojerry: ice cream?
[13:34] <brobostigon> screen-x: i couldnt see a thing, everything was too small.
[13:34] <screen-x> brobostigon: good effort
[13:35] <brobostigon> screen-x: i would have needed a magnifying glass.
[13:35] <mungojerry> screen-x: i'm hoping they will call the next one after that haribo after the world's best sweets
[13:35] <popey> mungojerry: its up to the carrier
[13:35] <popey> i have all tethering enabled
[13:35] <popey> usb, bluetooth and wifi
[13:36] <mungojerry> i don't use tethering much but it's invaluable on holiday
[13:36] <mungojerry> (in the UK)
[13:36]  * screen-x wonders hopes there is a wifi tethering option with jailbreak
[13:38]  * daubers waits for his partitions to resize
[13:40]  * dutchie gets out of bed
[13:40] <mungojerry> daubers: debian testing?
[13:41] <brobostigon> sid?
[13:43] <mungojerry> fedora 15: Ethernet NICs embedded on the motherboard will be named em[1234] rather than ethX. PCI add-in card NICs will be named pci<slot>p<port>_<vf>.
[13:44] <mungojerry> except for VMs. ..sounds like going back to the Solaris days.. fe0 , ge0, hme0 ewww
[13:44] <popey> expect lots of things to break :)
[13:44] <mungojerry> popey: isn't that fedora's slogan?
[13:45] <popey> heh
[13:46] <daubers> mungojerry: no, stable :)
[13:46] <daubers> (debian version that is)
[13:46] <mungojerry> daubers: gnome 2.32?
[13:46] <daubers> mungojerry: No idea, ask me once it's installed :p
[13:47] <mungojerry> should be done by now :P
[13:47] <daubers> mungojerry: It's resizing quite an old partition, which takes time
[13:47] <mungojerry> ah
[13:48] <mungojerry> i didn't realise what a difference it makes going from a 5400rpm laptop disk to a 7200rpm one
[13:48] <mungojerry> much more IOPS
[13:48] <screen-x> talking of NIC names, it would be really useful, if ethtool or something like it could make one an interfaces LEDs flash, so you can work out which is which.
[13:50] <screen-x> heh ethtool does it already.. should have read the man page.
[13:51] <mungojerry> screen-x: like ethtool -p ?
[13:51] <mungojerry> i also find audible ping useful when moving machines while they are switched on
[13:51]  * mungojerry actually has a server room that doesn't have noisy raid alarms constantly beeping
[13:52] <brobostigon> gingerbread seems to be working,
[13:52] <mungojerry> om nom nom
[13:52] <brobostigon> :)
[13:52] <directhex> i'm so looking forward to a new phone
[13:53] <popey> new palm pre?
[13:53] <directhex> mungojerry, if you want iops, you don't use spinning discs of rust
[13:53] <directhex> popey, that's the current plan
[13:53] <screen-x> directhex: pre3?
[13:54] <directhex> indeed
[13:55] <directhex> or i could get that 3d android phone, to view my 3d photos on :p
[13:56] <screen-x> directhex: do you have a 3d monitor/tv?
[13:56] <directhex> screen-x, yes
[13:56] <screen-x> work well with the 3d camera?
[13:56] <directhex> no idea, don't have a mini-hdmi cable yet :p
[13:57] <screen-x> how are 3d photos stored?
[13:58] <directhex> .mpo files, which are basically .jpg files with two image sections defined. most apps will open them & ignore the second image
[13:58] <directhex> e.g. regular command-line exif tools work
[13:58] <screen-x> interesting
[13:59] <brobostigon> in gingerbread will i be needing setcpu?
[14:03] <daubers> \o/ for experimental installs
[14:04] <daubers> I have 1xnatty partition and 1xdebian partition installed on a btrfs FS :)
[14:25] <bigcalm> Is there a wordpress function to get a page_name (slug) from a given ID number?
[14:25] <bigcalm> (shot in the dark question)
[14:37] <popey> http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/18/flash-10-2-hits-android-today-adobe-hopes-for-viewable-720p-pla/
[14:38] <screen-x> bigcalm: I'm guessing mysql_query is the wrong answer..
[14:39] <cocoa117> my ubuntu 10.10 Gnome keep think pdf,rar,deb files is text/plain type, anyway to solve this?
[14:39] <cocoa117> this happened after i installed php5-cli and phoronix-test-suite
[14:39] <bigcalm> screen-x: one would hope so
[14:39] <bigcalm> screen-x: I'll write my own function if need be, just wanted to make sure I'm not reinventing the wheel
[14:40] <screen-x> bigcalm: no idea
[14:42] <bigcalm> :)
[14:42] <gord> cocoa117, right click -> properties -> open with - select what you want it to open with there
[14:43] <screen-x> bigcalm: get_page returns more than you need,but does include title
[14:43] <cocoa117> gord, i did, then the Document viewer for PDF file showed "unable to open document, file type text/plain is not supported"
[14:44] <cocoa117> gord, it was fine before I installed php5-cli
[14:44] <gord> cocoa117, eh then i'm not sure sorry
[14:47] <bigcalm> screen-x: yes, that's the function I'm using now
[14:47] <bigcalm> $sectionPage = get_page(83);
[14:47] <bigcalm>  return $sectionPage->post_name;
[15:00] <kubik32> d
[15:01] <screen-x> b
[15:01] <kubik32> hi
[15:01] <screen-x> hi kubik32
[15:02] <bigcalm> And there you go
[15:02] <screen-x> haha
[15:02]  * daubers orders 1 of http://www.amazon.co.uk/IB-250StU3-B-Aluminium-Case-inch-Interface/dp/B0030CK2YE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300453897&sr=1-1-catcorr
[15:06]  * DJones wonders if "hi" in polish means something other than hello that may have scared kubik32 out of the channel
[15:06] <screen-x> DJones: he/she said it first
[15:07] <screen-x> I personally think it was the character symetry that scared him.
[15:07] <screen-x>  /her
[15:08] <DJones> Heh
[15:08] <mungojerry> most IRC rooms aren't very active..maybe it was the first time he/she had seen a response with 60 minutes that scared them off
[15:09] <daubers> (
[15:09] <screen-x> )
[15:09]  * screen-x likes this game
[15:09] <bigcalm> {
[15:09] <BigRedS> Hah. I've spent days in a typo of the channel I was aiming at before noticing the traffic was a *tad* lower than usual...
[15:09] <daubers> }
[15:09] <screen-x> bigcalm: consider yourself bracketed
[15:09] <shauno> I've done that a few times, but been in the right channel on the wrong network
[15:09] <screen-x> tab fail
[15:09]  * bigcalm considers it
[15:10] <shauno> eventually start to babble (it's what I do) and notice I'm opped.  oops.
[15:10] <bigcalm> Oh for flip :)
[15:10] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Phil Bull] User Help hackfest - http://philbull.livejournal.com/58631.html
[15:10] <bigcalm> BigRedS: I don't think people in here can cope when we are both active!
[15:11] <screen-x> three characters should uniquely identify any nic
[15:11]  * bigcalm o O ( likes this )
[15:12] <mungojerry> screen-x: +1
[15:13] <daubers> screen-x: Nonesense, most of the time they start with eth :)
[15:13] <BigRedS> haha!
[15:14] <mungojerry> this room still has around 80% lurkageunless they all get busy at 11pm
[15:14] <shauno> the day-time people are boring :(
[15:14] <screen-x> mungojerry: I was here at 2am the other day, at there was quite a lot of overlap with day people.
[15:14] <mungojerry> lol
[15:14] <screen-x> it seems sleep is not a universal requirement
[15:15] <shauno> I think it's a requirement, I just find 'daily' to be pushing it a bit too far
[15:15] <mungojerry> i remember at uni , we didn't have such things as laptops, or even desktops in those days, so the geeks would just hang out in the lab virtual chatting and MUGing late into the night
[15:16] <mungojerry> i don't think any coding or work got done
[15:16] <mungojerry> compsci students are actually quite social amongst their own kind
[15:17] <bigcalm> I don't really enjoy talking shop that much in outside of work
[15:17] <mungojerry> i would but none of my irl friends are geeky enough
[15:18] <mungojerry> especially the ones who consider themselves geeks
[15:18] <BigRedS> I just get into arguments with my geeky friends
[15:18] <BigRedS> they're either flash devs or windows admins :(
[15:18] <mungojerry> me too, usually involving apple or freedom :P
[15:18] <BigRedS> I tend to berate them for breaking the internet
[15:18] <mungojerry> same as my banter with popey and shauno really :P
[15:19] <BigRedS> haha, I did enjoy the macbook comment someone tweeted at fosdem
[15:19] <screen-x> mungojerry: I used to annoy people in the CS labs for being too social/nosey I always wanted to know what other people were up to
[15:19] <mungojerry> screen-x: become an admin :P
[15:19] <screen-x> mungojerry: tick
[15:20] <screen-x> I dont care what my users are up to (within policy..) much less interesting than CS students :(
[15:20] <mungojerry> uni doesn't teach you enough about admin rights..i knew how to program etc but only really knew cd/ls/pwd/gcc/mailtool/rlogin/xlock
[15:20] <mungojerry> but got a job as sysadmin..had to learn quickly
[15:20] <screen-x> mungojerry: yep, same
[15:21] <mungojerry> fortunately my boss taught me well
[15:21] <mungojerry> i have repayed the favour by teaching many others
[15:21] <Azelphur> sigh, lodgers laptop has smitfraud on it
[15:21] <mungojerry> don't keep knowledge to yourself
[15:21] <Azelphur> I usually don't do windows support, but baring in mind my parents are so horrible to him lol
[15:22] <mungojerry> Azelphur: hmm..source of your bandwidth issues?
[15:22] <Azelphur> mungojerry: nope, did per user and everyone was even
[15:22] <mungojerry> even your dad?
[15:22] <Azelphur> yup
[15:23] <Azelphur> there was like 1GB between the highest and lowest user
[15:23] <screen-x> Azelphur: sounds like you need a transparent proxy
[15:23] <shauno> that's fairly atypical .. must be a pretty odd house
[15:24] <Azelphur> screen-x: why? :p
[15:24] <screen-x> How do your parents use 20gb/month? iplayer?
[15:25] <Azelphur> yep
[15:25] <Azelphur> and hour long youtube lectures
[15:25]  * mungojerry checks his usage
[15:25] <Azelphur> and my dad does lots of VNC
[15:25] <mungojerry> geek dad lol
[15:25] <screen-x> how does your router differntiate users?
[15:25] <screen-x> static IP?
[15:25] <Azelphur> screen-x: mac address
[15:25] <screen-x> ahh
[15:25] <screen-x> all routers should do that
[15:26] <Azelphur> they should
[15:26] <screen-x> I know you said the other day, but which one is it again?
[15:26] <Azelphur> I use a linksys WRT610N with DD-WRT
[15:26] <Azelphur> but DD-WRT isn't exactly great, and getting bandwith monitoring going isn't easy unless you want to pay them bucketloads of money
[15:27] <screen-x> pay for dd-wrt?
[15:27] <Azelphur> yea they have a pay version with extra features :/
[15:27] <screen-x> opencore :(
[15:27] <Azelphur> I'm not too sure on how that works baring in mind it's GPL
[15:28] <Azelphur> screen-x: the web panel is encrypted too so you can't add your own pages -.-
[15:28] <Azelphur> openwrt is probably better but it isn't compatible with my router
[15:29] <Daviey> BigRedS, Were you at FOSDEM this year?
[15:29] <mungojerry> Azelphur: usage for last 3 months for me + wifey: http://i.imgur.com/MNwUb.png
[15:30] <Azelphur> :p
[15:30] <BigRedS> Daviey: yeah
[15:30] <mungojerry> do all my ISO downloads and iplayer downloads at work
[15:30] <Azelphur> yea, if you had to do that at home your bandwith usage would go way up :)
[15:30] <BigRedS> I meant to seek out some of you people, but, er, didn't
[15:31] <Azelphur> mungojerry: then we've got weird stuff like the lodger isn't allowed to watch TV (See: my parents arn't nice to him) so he has to use iPlayer or similar to watch anything
[15:31] <Daviey> BigRedS, If i knew that, i might have let you buy me a drink.
[15:31] <mungojerry> lol is your dad alan sugar?
[15:31] <BigRedS> Daviey: Aha! I knew I should have announced more
[15:31] <BigRedS> wait... :)
[15:32] <Azelphur> o.O
[15:32] <shauno> I think at some point you just gotta admit that most residential connections aren't sized for 4+ over-average users
[15:33] <Daviey> BigRedS, Mind you, i'm not sure i could have handled more.
[15:34] <BigRedS> Daviey: Ah, so you had the right sort of amount?
[15:34] <shauno> they sell it around email/myface/youtube, where you'd be an anomaly, and 4 anomalies under one roof is heavy
[15:34] <mungojerry> about 10 years ago an work colleague mounted a roof aerial to run a wifi connection between his mums house and his own, to perform offsite backups
[15:34] <Daviey> BigRedS, Hmm.. possibly excess...
[15:34] <mungojerry> i have a massive microwave/laser aerial about 5 yds from my head on the top floor on the office :S
[15:35] <mungojerry> pointing at halls of residence about half a mile away
[15:35] <shauno> we used to have something like that linking 2 college campuses.  it'd go wrong in very bad weather
[15:35] <mungojerry> i'd like to know if there are any health risks in working next to it
[15:36] <screen-x> mungojerry: that sort of thing is usually pretty directional
[15:36] <mungojerry> tbh the asbestos is probably a higher risk
[15:52] <BigRedS> What's the name for a person being sponsored. It's not 'sponsoree' but might be in some sort of a horrible nightmare
[15:52] <BigRedS> s/\./?/
[15:52] <BigRedS> I suppose it could be 'the sponsored'...
[15:55] <screen-x> http://www.sponsoree.com/en/faqs
[15:55] <screen-x> others have suggested sponsee, but I don't like that either
[15:56] <bigcalm> Anybody here have a faveorite form plugin for WordPress?
[15:56] <DJones> BigRedS: If the person being sponsored is running a marathon, then I'd call them insane :)
[15:56] <shauno> my dict just goes with sponsored :/
[15:57] <BigRedS> DJones: haha, part of the point of sponsorship is that you're doing somethign a bit insane, surely?
[15:59] <mungojerry> does anyone in here know about combi boilers?
[16:00] <directhex> i know they boil things!
[16:00] <DJones> mungojerry: About the bare minimum, turn tap on boiler switches on to heat water, time clock comes on central heating comes on
[16:00] <mungojerry> the water pressure in my boiler has been increasing rather high, although i haven't introduced any new water to the system..rather weird
[16:00] <directhex> mungojerry, *increasing*? how random
[16:01] <mungojerry> i bled the radiator to let out air and 2 pints of water from the system
[16:01] <mungojerry> rather concerning
[16:01] <screen-x> mungojerry: retract the control rods a few cm
[16:01] <mungojerry> screen-x: i'm a noob
[16:01] <mungojerry> what's a control rod
[16:01] <shauno> heh
[16:02] <screen-x> mungojerry: nuclear fuel
[16:02] <dutchie> well, anti-fuel
[16:02] <screen-x> dutchie: ah yes, wrong way round
[16:02] <mungojerry> ah
[16:02] <dutchie> screen-x: the fuel rods are called, imaginatively, "fuel rods" :)
[16:03] <DJones> Isn't the pressure supposed to rise a bit when it heats up because the hot water expands
[16:04] <mungojerry> DJones: yes
[16:04] <shauno> aye.  inserting the control rods a bit more (more mediators) should lower pressure.  he got it all about face, but it was funny
[16:04] <mungojerry> but recently (last week or so), it hasn't been resetting to the previous pressure
[16:04] <mungojerry> after cooling
[16:04] <screen-x> mungojerry: does the manual give safe ranges?
[16:04] <mungojerry> the central heating system can withstand pressure up to 3 bar
[16:05] <mungojerry> mine was around 0.5-1 bar for a long time
[16:05] <mungojerry> then zoomed
[16:05] <mungojerry> up to 3 bar
[16:05] <mungojerry> (with heating on). so i bled a bit from radiator to release pressure
[16:06] <DJones> mungojerry: http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9358
[16:08] <DJones> Do those symptoms sound similar
[16:10] <mungojerry> hmm..probably this is more similar http://boards.fool.co.uk/boiler-pressure-increasing-11233573.aspx?sort=whole
[16:11] <jgjones_> I'm just looking forward to summer - central heating goes off completely.
[16:11] <mungojerry> i don't actually know what the expansion vessel is
[16:11] <mungojerry> i've had my heating on constantly for ages, since we have a little babby
[16:11] <DJones> That seems to be talking about the same problem (2nd part of the answer anyway) a loss of pressure in the expansion vessel
[16:13] <mungojerry> i have a digital pressure reader , so it seems i need to stick it in the expansion vessel valve, wherever that is
[16:14]  * mungojerry hates house things going wrong
[16:14] <jgjones_> I liked Outcasts on BBC and am disappointed to hear that apparently it've been cancelled now....does that mean I'm just plain weird for liking Outcasts since it seems that those naff "TV critics" from papers think it's crap?
[16:15] <DJones> jgjones_: I couldn't get interested in Outcast, it looked good from teh adverts but once it started, it didn't hold my attention
[16:15] <Cepheus> I watched the first episode, it was okay but nothing spectacular
[16:15] <jgjones_> It seemed to get a lot better toward the end.
[16:16] <DJones> This looks interesting if it ever makes it this side of teh Atlantic http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/18/breaking_in_pen_testing_sitcom/
[16:16] <DJones> http://www.fox.com/breakingin/
[16:16] <jgjones_> Frankly, if they're cancelling it, fine...but they'll better not replace it with yet another bloody "reality" show
[16:19] <DJones> Maybe they're going to do a reality show based in a circus, every week they "stars" have to perform as a different circus act, with the 1/4 final as tightrope artiste, semi final trapeeze artiste and final as a lion tamer :)
[16:20] <jgjones_> a better reality show would be to have bankers learning that they're not getting any bonuses and instead it goes on paying off UK debt.   I'm slow and verbose
[16:44] <Cepheus> It will always echo bob because always at least one of those is true
[16:44] <X3N> ah yes, thanks
[16:44] <Cepheus> replace || with &&
[16:45] <moreati> would be clearer as $cats not in ['felix', 'fifi']
[16:45] <moreati> assuming php has a 'not in' operator
[16:45] <dwatkins> I thought || was meant for commands, not within if statements
[16:45] <bigcalm> You could replace it with if (!in_array($cats, array('felix', 'fifi'))) { ...
[16:46] <dwatkins> if ( true | false ) { echo either; }
[16:46] <dwatkins> as oposed to /bin/true || /bin/false
[16:47] <shauno> I don't think php has a straght |
[16:47] <bigcalm> Not as an or, no
[16:47] <shauno> *straight
[16:47] <dwatkins> oh right, thought it was bash
[16:47] <Cepheus> | is bitwise or in PHP
[16:47] <Cepheus> I think
[16:48] <shauno> so it is
[16:49] <X3N> brain failing to do logic this evening, kind of bad
[16:49] <shauno> just don't do double-negatives.  if they don't make sense in english, they're not going to look any prettier in code :)
[16:49] <bigcalm> :D
[16:50] <bigcalm> if (!false) { die(':('); }
[16:50] <dwatkins> noooooooooooooooooo!
[16:50] <dwatkins> that smells like a nasty forkbomb, bigcalm
[16:51] <screen-x> nah, just certain death
[16:51] <bigcalm> Not in the slightist
[16:51] <dwatkins> | cake
[16:51] <Cepheus> death is not the end =p
[16:51] <bigcalm> while (true) { fork; }
[16:52] <dwatkins> while ( cake | death ) ; do eat ; endwhile
[16:52]  * screen-x gives Cepheus a philosophy point
[16:52] <screen-x> dwatkins: ||
[16:52] <screen-x> unless you are planning to pipe cake into death
[16:52] <moreati> die(':(') anyone else see a duck blowing a rasberry?
[16:53] <shauno> I did that with a chunk of perl earlier.  looked at it.  and again.  decided I saw 7 smileys, and nothing else. and closed it again.
[17:07] <popey> I am looking forward to drinking beer tomorrow afternoon.
[17:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ahh popey
[17:10] <TheOpenSourcerer> What time you planning on getting up there?
[17:12] <BrianM_> ?
[17:12] <BrianM_> help
[17:13] <BrianM_> list
[17:14] <moreati> BrianM_: I am the helpbot. What s the nature of your enquiry?
[17:15] <BrianM_> how do i list channels
[17:17] <moreati> BrianM_: To list channels type /list for further help type /help list
[17:19] <popey> TheOpenSourcerer: dunno really, you?
[17:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> probably mid afternoon I guess (2~3pm)
[17:21] <popey> yeah, same here
[17:21] <popey> Sam has a party till 1:30
[17:21] <popey> I need to get back and then get to the station
[17:23] <bigcalm> My car is 4 years old and has a service interval of 20,000 miles. Would you still take it in every year for a service or wait for the 20k to pass?
[17:23] <popey> yes
[17:23]  * bigcalm wallops popey
[17:23] <popey> :)
[17:23] <bigcalm> :P
[17:24] <bigcalm> I'm wise to your tricks, mr popey
[17:24] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: I'd go every year
[17:24] <MartijnVdS> just to make sure nothing is wrong (yet :)
[17:24] <MartijnVdS> and assuming it doesn't cost hundreds of ££
[17:24] <bigcalm> 6.4K left on the clock until the next service
[17:24] <bigcalm> Though I doubt I'll do that in the next 2 weeks
[17:25] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: No business will turn away a customer.. will they? :)
[17:25] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: of course not. But I'm wondering if it's over kill for my wallet or not on a 'new' car
[17:26] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: You could always ask them if they think it's necessary..?
[17:26] <MartijnVdS> or learn how to service your car yourself... life skills++
[17:26] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: what place would then say 'na, don't bother'
[17:26] <bigcalm> I can service it myself :)
[17:26] <bigcalm> Dad brought me up well
[17:27] <gord> if you install wine, "open with notepad" gets added to your right click menu for text files....
[17:27] <gord> how is that a good idea ever?
[17:27] <bigcalm> But I'm happy to pay somebody else to do it for me and get a stamp in the service history book
[17:27] <MartijnVdS> gord: If you want to try out the newest Notepad 0days
[17:27] <bigcalm> o.O
[17:29] <MartijnVdS> http://twitter.com/#!/Queen_UK/status/48790292555497472
[17:29] <MartijnVdS> ^^ take note :)
[17:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: There is a 14:12 from Woking that gets into Clapham at 14:31 - That's probably the one I'm aiming for.
[17:50] <popey> might be rtough for me to make that
[17:50] <popey> *tough
[17:50] <popey> will let you know, and will have location tweets and latitude on
[18:00] <brobostigon> has anyone here tried k9 on gingerbread, it seems to not be able to pickup email push or polling,
[18:01] <brobostigon> unless i specificlly open k9, and tell it to update manually.
[18:39] <jgjones_> brobostigon, I'm using Cyanogen 7 RC1 - it's based on Gingerbread....would that work for trying out K9 or are you using vanilla Gingerbread?
[18:41] <brobostigon> jgjones_: i am also using a version of cm7, but its not made by cm.
[18:43] <brobostigon> jgjones_: but they should be closeenough to eacother.
[18:43] <Cepheus> froyo is the most popular version of android. and there are more people using 1.6 than gingerbread by almost seven times
[18:44] <brobostigon> jgjones_: thank you for your help.
[18:48] <jgjones_> brobostigon, will get K9 on phone and try it.
[18:50] <brobostigon> jgjones_: thank you, ihave it set to pickup from gmail. and the "checking email" icon always stays in the notification, and doesnt do anything,
[18:57] <brobostigon> jgjones_: and could you check to see if k9 lets android sleep or not.please.
[19:01] <jgjones_> brobostigon, for background sync, what do you set it to?
[19:01] <brobostigon> jgjones_: the time?
[19:01] <jgjones_> brobostigon, in settings, Network > background sync
[19:01] <brobostigon> jgjones_: always,
[19:03] <jgjones_> notification's working
[19:03] <jgjones_> brobostigon,  notification's working
[19:03] <brobostigon> jgjones_: ok, that is ok here aswell.
[19:03] <jgjones_> I sent an email to myself (google apps email to gmail account) and within seconds of sending, I got a notification.
[19:04] <brobostigon> jgjones_: push seems to be woking fine for you then, something is broke here then.
[19:06] <jgjones_> brobostigon, I'm doing it again, but this time, my phone screen is off (locked) and sending from laptop
[19:06] <jgjones_> So far nothing.
[19:07] <brobostigon> jgjones_: that sounds like what is happening here.
[19:08] <jgjones_> brobostigon, yup...seems notification works while I'm using phone, but not if it's not in use
[19:09] <brobostigon> jgjones_: so it seems, it isnt letting it doanything, while android is asleep.
[19:09] <jgjones_> brobostigon, and locking phone excessively cos I just love that "power down" animation :D
[19:09] <brobostigon> jgjones_: :)
[19:10] <jgjones_> brobostigon, hmm...my phone lit up as I got an text. So I switched it on, and I could see the notification for K9 in the notification bar already there - it might have appeared as soon as my phone lit up for a text but it's not doing it while sleeping
[19:21] <brobostigon> jgjones_: thats the impression i got here, aswell.
[19:30] <MartijnVdS> <3 Dr Who mini-special :)
[19:30] <brobostigon> yes, :)
[19:40] <shauno> wutwut? whar/when?
[19:41] <MartijnVdS> shauno: just then, on BBC One (Red nose day)
[19:42] <shauno> ow
[19:46] <shauno> oh well.  keep yer dr who.  I have baileys.
[19:48] <phonex01> guys need help about aircrack
[19:48] <HazRPG> aloha!
[19:48] <phonex01> i put my mon0 device to work on channel 1 and it is turned to channel -1 ?
[19:49] <AlanBell> !aircrack
[19:49] <AlanBell> !info aircrack
[19:49] <AlanBell> nope, not in the repos
[19:50] <DJones> !info aircrack-ng
[19:51] <DJones> Not something I've ever installed though
[19:51] <AlanBell> hmm, interesting
[19:51] <AlanBell> we tend not to support cracking stuff, but that is in the repos!
[19:52] <HazRPG> AlanBell: its not really intended for cracking, its mainly for sys-admins to secure their networks...
[19:52] <HazRPG> besides, doesn't shock me its in the repo... because backtrack 4 used ubuntu as its base at one point...
[19:53] <dutchie> and also it has just come straight from debian
[19:53] <HazRPG> plus I had it installed once on my laptop going round securing my friends wifi's with it
[19:53] <HazRPG> I used it as proof how properly unsecured wifi was bad
[19:53] <AlanBell> yeah, there are other tools in the repos, wireshark and nmap for example which are generally handy things for diagnosing network issues
[19:54] <AlanBell> they don't really call themselves "cracking utilities" though
[19:59] <shauno> backtrack terrifies me
[19:59] <Azelphur> why?
[19:59] <shauno> it seems to have an odd talent for drawing the wrong audience
[19:59] <Azelphur> that's why it's good, it's like facebook
[20:00] <Azelphur> it magnets 99.9% of irritating people away from the good stuff
[20:01] <DJones> AlanBell: Its not the package thats a problem, its what the user uses it for, if they use it as a sys admin tool its no problem, if they do something dodgy with it....
[20:01] <AlanBell> of course, any tool is just a tool
[20:02] <HazRPG> can brasero write to disc from .cdi images?
[20:02] <DJones> Must admit, I think its description could be better stated
[20:04] <brobostigon> what is the proper wayto pipe terminal output into a text file?
[20:04] <shauno> >
[20:05] <brobostigon> thank you shauno
[20:06] <shauno> not sure if I'm missing a detail there, but >filename isn't a hack, it's how it's meant to go :)
[20:07] <HazRPG> brobostigon: \o :)
[20:07] <HazRPG> no one know if .cdi can be burnt to disc?
[20:07] <HazRPG> using brasero
[20:08] <shauno> not entirely sure what a .cdi is; what does 'file filename' say it is?
[20:08] <brobostigon> shauno: it worked, :)
[20:08] <DJones> HazRPG: http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1288517.html
[20:08] <DJones> Maybe that will help
[20:09] <ali1234> !info cdi2iso
[20:09] <shauno> the forum post asks you to grab a package of geocities .. I thought they finally sank that :(
[20:09] <HazRPG> DJones, ali1234: Thanks guys :)
[20:10] <HazRPG> also, anyone know why brasero doesn't seem to be able to eject my disc drive?
[20:10] <HazRPG> and why the disc doesn't stop spinning when it has burnt something
[20:10] <ali1234> maybe it's busily burning a hole right through it
[20:10] <shauno> it's screwed into the case?
[20:10] <HazRPG> shauno: erm... should be, why would that matter?
[20:11] <daubers> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2011-March/029195.html
[20:11] <HazRPG> its not using metal screws, its using those clip on and twist caps
[20:11] <dutchie> daubers: apostrophes!
[20:12] <HazRPG> DJones: I love how you were right on the money with that post being dreamcast based
[20:12] <HazRPG> DJones: I just got one of my dreamcast games back from a friend, and he'd managed to scratch it to hell :(
[20:13] <DJones> HazRPG: I had no idea, google search terms "ubuntu .cdi" :)
[20:13] <HazRPG> I hate how some people don't know how to look after things :/
[20:13] <daubers> dutchie: Not an englishist!!
[20:13] <ali1234> i can see the need to differentiate between leader and poc
[20:14] <shauno> HazRPG: the difference between ejecting a disk and ejecting the drive :)
[20:15]  * daubers is starting to feel like the team secretary
[20:15] <ali1234> daubers: you're talking a lot about decisions... can you give examples on the kind of decisions the loco has had tomake in the past?
[20:15]  * DJones hands daubers a shorthand pad
[20:15] <HazRPG> shauno: ah, my mistake >_< I meant disc
[20:15] <ali1234> cos the only ones i'm aware of were "who to elect leader" and "what should we use for the new logo"
[20:16] <HazRPG> think it could be bad drivers that causes it?
[20:16] <HazRPG> because discs continue to spin
[20:16] <HazRPG> regardless of what discs I put in
[20:16] <shauno> drivers barely exist for cdrom.  it's ide, scsi & atapi.  and they're all old enough to be your grandma
[20:16] <HazRPG> or whether I'm writing or just reading discs
[20:17] <HazRPG> shauno: hmm,  but surely a disc shouldn't still be spinning when you press eject
[20:17] <shauno> I think that's up to the hardware
[20:17] <HazRPG> and it definitely shouldn't stop brasero from being able to eject it using its programming calls
[20:17] <daubers> ali1234: It's more so that if the LoCo decides to do something and there is a lot of uncertainty, that kinf of paralises things under the current regime
[20:18] <daubers> ali1234: In that scenario a "leader" as such could make a final decision on what occurs
[20:18] <shauno> drives can block eject, using the lock call
[20:18] <ali1234> daubers: examples?
[20:18] <ali1234> like i said, i understand the general idea
[20:18] <ali1234> how does it apply to this specific group?
[20:19] <HazRPG> shauno: oh... hmm, I hate to utter the words - but I never had troubles with earlier ubuntu's nor under any windows install
[20:19] <directhex> From<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:19] <directhex> Your order has been despatched.
[20:19] <directhex> :)
[20:20] <HazRPG> directhex: didn't realise one could order alcohol online :o!
[20:20] <daubers> ali1234: An example would be if we wanted to make subtle change to how the irc rooms are monitored, that could easily cause a divide in opinion
[20:20] <shauno> I'd assume, the same as any other group; it's a technicality to cover eventualities, but you hope you never need it because we're old enough and ugly enough to do things without clawing each others' eyes out
[20:21] <ali1234> ah, good example
[20:21] <daubers> It might also help reduce the level of apathy of in the group having a "leader" to help spur people on
[20:22] <AlanBell> ali1234: I think it makes little practical difference, however as the topic has been raised this is as good a time as any to clarify it
[20:22] <ali1234> well it seems to me the logical thing to do is option 2, but allow people to stand for both roles if they want to :)
[20:22] <shauno> I think the 'day job' should simply be that canonical require a named point of contact
[20:23] <ali1234> i mean option 3 :)
[20:23] <AlanBell> the way I see it is that the defined "point of contact" role is the minimal level of leadership required
[20:24] <shauno> having to make decisions because the rest of us can't reach consensus is the other extreme, and kinda indicates everyone's doing something wrong
[20:24] <shauno> I think that's all I'm getting at.  that may, but shouldn't happen
[20:26] <DJones> I guess a team leader would have the teams authority to make a decision on short notice if something needed to be decided upon before it could be discussed in meeting
[20:26] <daubers> I'm happy to go with the group largley. But a small part of me thinks that there should be an administrative role and a lead type role. Hopefully we'll get lots of opinions though and then we can distil it and put it to a vote
[20:26] <ali1234> yeah i agree
[20:27] <ali1234> i don't see a need to elect the PoC if there is a formally elected leader
[20:28] <ali1234> basically, the leader should just choose someone (probably at the same time they announce they will stand for leadership, kind of like president/vice president ticket)
[20:30] <daubers> or you make the admin role a short fixed term, but that can add some uncertainty
[20:30] <ali1234> nah i would not have a fixed term on the admin role either
[20:30] <ali1234> if it is really just admin it has no power
[20:30] <daubers> More so that everyone get's a chance to be useful
[20:31] <ali1234> i don't think people complaining they don't have enough work to do is a problem you should worry about :)
[20:31] <daubers> heh
[20:31]  * suprengr thinks: it's Friday night, peeps should stop being so pedantic & have a drink instead   [...& then runs for cover!]
[20:31] <ali1234> leadership should be fixed term though
[20:31] <daubers> suprengr: I've already broken out the bottle of whiskey
[20:32] <shauno> way ahead of you :D
[20:32] <suprengr> daubers: good on ya mate - cheers ;)
[20:33] <ali1234> but i'm looking at this from a "how do we stop a leader from becoming a dictator" pov rather than assuming that everyone is nice :)
[20:33] <zleap> hi all
[20:34] <shauno> that's depend hugely on what an admin role actually is.  otherwise it looks like 2 people, but still has one person calling the shots
[20:35] <shauno> have there actually been any issues so far?
[20:36] <daubers> ali1234: Yeah, thats why I added that to the bottom of that etherpad
[20:37] <ali1234> do we even have more than 1 person who is actually interested in the job?
[20:37] <ali1234> cos if we don't it is rather a moot point
[20:37] <shauno> I'm not sure fixed terms are the right way to solve that
[20:37]  * AlanBell gets out the "how to be a dictator book"
[20:37] <HazRPG> wow my ratio for ubuntu-10.10-alternate-i386.iso is 162!
[20:38] <shauno> if you say, this post lasts 2 years; you're just going to worry potential candidates that may not be able to commit to a full 2 years
[20:38] <HazRPG> completely forgot I've been seeding that :P
[20:38] <ali1234> AlanBell: psst http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm
[20:38] <AlanBell> at risk of sounding like a dictator I am not sure that fixed terms are neccessary when we have the obligation to step down gracefully
[20:39] <ali1234> AlanBell: fixed terms but no term limits
[20:39] <ali1234> you can just stand again if you want
[20:40] <shauno> that's it.  the solution for dictators is to have a way to get rid of them.  not a way to decide how long you'd like to be dictated over
[20:40] <zleap> 2 years is a long time to say you can commit for
[20:40] <AlanBell> shauno: agreed
[20:40] <AlanBell> and we have that
[20:40] <ali1234> zleap: it's a maximum not a minimum
[20:40] <zleap> ok
[20:40] <AlanBell> the loco council and community council are there to do exactly that
[20:41] <shauno> zleap: 2 years was just a number picked out of the ether to form an example
[20:41] <zleap> ok np
[20:41] <shauno> that is exactly the example I was trying to make, just don't get hung up on the numbers :)
[20:43] <ali1234> AlanBell: can't say i have much faith in that system... generally the further you go up the chain, the worse is the corruption, and the less they actually care. at least in my experience
[20:43] <shauno> I'm genuinely curious what problems have been into so far.  even in other groups, or minor grumbles.  fixing boundless hypotheticals is difficult
[20:44] <DJones> I'm tempted to say that the roles should be a combined one given that only AlanBell was willing to stand as POC which has most of a suggestion of being an admin role, if "Team leader" became available and multiple people stood for it, I'd be concerned that they were only standing for the apparant "kudos" that the position could be seen to infer
[20:44] <shauno> ali1234: I'd kinda agree with that, but only because I have no idea who they are.  I wouldn't accuse them of anything, but I'd prefer a way the members themselves could say "oi, vote time"
[20:44] <ali1234> shauno: yes exactly
[20:45] <ali1234> what DJones said too
[20:45] <AlanBell> um, well czajkowski is on the Loco Council, popey is on the community council
[20:45] <AlanBell> both of them highly corruptable individuals
[20:46] <shauno> sure.  this convo could use more popey really :)  but I'd hazard a guess that the majority would be people we only know by name, if at all
[20:47] <AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/~communitycouncil/+members
[20:47] <shauno> I tend to think this group is small & sensible enough that we could find a fairly painless process to "ask for a vote"
[20:48] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil
[20:48] <AlanBell> Popey is in fact on both
[20:48] <shauno> so should be corrupted first
[20:48] <AlanBell> :)
[20:49] <shauno> popey and cztab are the only names on loco I recognize; for the other list, maco & Him, but feel too abstracted
[20:50] <shauno> not really trying to argue anything, just stating that I do believe the one way to prevent dictatorships is to give people a way to rid themselves of dictators.  having higher beings we can appeal to is too abstracted from any other system I'm familiar with
[20:51] <AlanBell> shauno: I have met most of them at UDS
[20:51] <ali1234> is the community council or the loco council elected?
[20:51] <AlanBell> yes, sort of
[20:51] <AlanBell> except for Mark Shuttleworth on the Community Council
[20:52] <ali1234> yeah ofc
[20:52] <Azelphur> Anyone know if it's possible to have more than one fan get the automatic speed control from the motherboard with only one header?
[20:52] <Azelphur> maybe something that reads the header and replicates it to a few other fans?
[20:52] <AlanBell> and there is a shortlisting process which is a bit undemocratic (and unashamedly so)
[20:52] <ali1234> Azelphur: just build your own fan speed controller
[20:52]  * Azelphur isn't mcgyver
[20:52] <AlanBell> and the eligible voters are Ubuntu Members for the community council and I think Loco Council too
[20:53] <AlanBell> IRC council is slightly different
[20:53] <ali1234> Azelphur: it's easier than building something that reads from the motherboard speed control
[20:53] <ali1234> Azelphur: although software would be more complex
[20:54] <shauno> temp->pwm shouldn't be terribly difficult.  you can find it in $5 bay controllers from china
[20:54] <Azelphur> yea, except that I have no electronics experience and don't particularly want to start yet :P
[20:54] <ali1234> the only person on either who i have heard of outside this channel is dholbach
[20:54] <Azelphur> was just wondering if anything existed to do it
[20:55] <ali1234> all you need is something to generate pwm
[20:56] <shauno> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/5-25-pc-front-panel-lcd-thermostat-fan-speed-controller-with-overheat-alarm-15666 is an example; £7 shipped
[20:56] <AlanBell> DJones: it was announced as both point of contact and team leader and I think most people had considered the terms to be interchangeable http://popey.com/blog/2011/03/03/ubuntu-uk-loco-team-leader-sought/
[20:56] <Azelphur> shauno: nice, where does it get the temps from, is there a header on the mobo for it?
[20:57] <ali1234> Azelphur: it has a bunch of thermometers
[20:57] <shauno> the little yellow bits on leads appear to be thermometers
[20:57] <popey> evening all
[20:57] <MartijnVdS> \o
[20:57] <ali1234> Azelphur: also looks like it can only control one fan
[20:57] <Azelphur> I see
[20:58] <ali1234> Azelphur: but thing is, you can build this for pennies with an avr chip
[20:58] <ali1234> in fact there are probably several websites with schematics
[20:58] <ali1234> you can probably do it even cheaper
[20:58] <ali1234> i mean you can probably just amplify the pwm sigal and feed it into all the fans
[20:58] <shauno> it'd be a fantastic place to learn if you have no experience, because the task is so very well defined
[20:59] <Azelphur> baring in mind I have no electronics experience at all to the point that I havn't even replaced a fuse in a plug :P
[20:59] <ali1234> an arduino board would be perfect for this if it wasn't a) huge and b) devoid of real usb capability
[20:59] <shauno> I've got some pretty small arduino ;)
[21:00] <ali1234> i found another good board: http://leaflabs.com/devices/
[21:00] <ali1234> arduino compatible but with real usb on board
[21:00] <ali1234> and no silly interface glue
[21:01] <ali1234> gonna get a maple mini when it comes out
[21:02] <shauno> http://shaun.oneil.me.uk/tmp/img_6634.jpg   they're the boards I use
[21:02] <ali1234> http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/20100811_004.jpg is what i use
[21:02] <shauno> they're arduino, but without the ftdi, and 3.3v so I can drive them from lipo
[21:03] <HazRPG> shauno: woah, you smoke reds!
[21:03] <HazRPG> shauno: I had to give those up for gold/light because of the morning after being weezy
[21:03] <shauno> HazRPG: I don't, they came back from amsterdam and I certainly smoke freebies
[21:03] <HazRPG> shauno: ah, well then carry on :P
[21:04] <shauno> (which is why the label mentions something about toes)
[21:04] <HazRPG> shauno: I smoke reds whenever I go to egypt - because they're cheaper than lights (granted both are still much cheaper than here!)
[21:04] <MartijnVdS> you know what's even cheaper? :)
[21:04] <HazRPG> shauno: :P What do you normally smoke out of interest
[21:04] <shauno> letting someone else fund the NHS?
[21:04] <MartijnVdS> Not smoking ;)
[21:05] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Someone has to fund the NHS... even if it is just us who's going to be using it more later on down the line xD
[21:05] <shauno> at the time, I figured they made a good scale reference, as the packets are the same size everywhere
[21:06] <HazRPG> shauno: makes sense :) - although don't forget super kings :/
[21:06] <shauno> they're forgetable :/
[21:06] <HazRPG> I hate people's reasoning for smoking those :/
[21:06] <shauno> (and still maintain the scale from that POV)
[21:07] <shauno> this etherpad thing is funky.  I haven't closed it yet, and I'm watching someone else's edits realtime
[21:07] <phonex01> guys heelp plz
[21:07] <phonex01> im using aircrack
[21:08] <phonex01> when i change mon0 channel using " iwconfig channel 9 mon0"
[21:08] <MartijnVdS> don't use crack.. it's bad for you
[21:08] <HazRPG> phonex01: as long as its not for illegal purposes... ask away
[21:08] <phonex01> mon0 set to channel -1 !
[21:08] <phonex01> im using aircrack for the simulation course
[21:08] <phonex01> not to hack someone
[21:08] <MartijnVdS> Maybe your WiFi driver doesn't support monitor mode
[21:08] <shauno> my biggest 'con' with fixed lengths is simply that it looks like it'd make people feel trapped into a fixed amount of time.  it appears we thin enough for volunteers without adding barriers
[21:08] <MartijnVdS> lots of them don't
[21:09] <HazRPG> phonex01: yeah, what MartijnVdS said :P
[21:09] <phonex01> how can i make sure about that ?
[21:10] <daftykins> aircrack has a way of testing if injection is working
[21:10] <daftykins> among other things
[21:10] <daftykins> amusingly enough it's all on their wiki
[21:10] <HazRPG> phonex01: http://www.aircrack-ng.org/doku.php?id=compatibility_drivers
[21:10] <AlanBell> there is an empty aircrack channel here
[21:10] <AlanBell> topic is Current plan: #aircrack will be forwarded to #aircrack-ng, in the absence of the  original author, and since the original project seems to be dead. Please message lilo if you have any problems or issues with that disposition. Thanks!
[21:11] <shauno> is -ng any less empty?
[21:11] <HazRPG> #aircrack-ng has 92 people
[21:11] <AlanBell> oh it is, loadsa people there
[21:11] <AlanBell> but alis didn't know about it
[21:11] <shauno> I'd have to suggest that'd be the right place to ask then
[21:12] <HazRPG> AlanBell: yeah, I did find that odd too
[21:12] <HazRPG> phonex01: best /join #aircrack-ng and ask your problems there - they'll be able to help out more
[21:13] <DJones> w 13
[21:13] <phonex01> i did
[21:13] <phonex01> they are stupid
[21:13] <shauno> 13?  you know you're an addict when ..
[21:13] <HazRPG> phonex01: try looking on that site I linked you
[21:14] <phonex01> i did
[21:14] <HazRPG> any joy?
[21:14] <phonex01> but they patch driver is not exist
[21:14] <phonex01> i mean i got HTTP repsonse that the file is not found
[21:14] <phonex01> wget http://superb-west.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/ieee80211/ieee80211-1.2.17.tar.gz
[21:14] <phonex01> that file is not exist
[21:15] <HazRPG> phonex01: try a different mirror: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ieee80211/
[21:16] <MartijnVdS> Do you need that? Aren't those part of the stock kernel by now?
[21:16] <MartijnVdS> The 802.11 stack?
[21:16] <HazRPG> usually anything after the /sourceforge/ is the name of the project
[21:16] <HazRPG> however yeah, you should already have it
[21:17] <HazRPG> phonex01: what are you running it on? PC/Laptop?
[21:17] <phonex01> laptop
[21:17]  * MartijnVdS ponders ordering a 3G stick/sim from $work
[21:17] <phonex01> my chip is supported
[21:17] <HazRPG> phonex01: built-in wifi?
[21:17] <phonex01> it is strange
[21:17] <HazRPG> ah
[21:17] <phonex01> yes
[21:17] <phonex01> Intel
[21:17] <HazRPG> which model?
[21:18] <phonex01> Network controller: Intel Corporation WiFi Link 5100
[21:18] <phonex01> 	Intel 4965/5xxx	iwlagn
[21:18] <daftykins> you don't get much luck with Intel ones
[21:19] <phonex01> really ?
[21:19] <daftykins> nope, though it depends what you're doing
[21:19] <daftykins> my 3945abg can support packet injection with the ipwraw driver
[21:19] <daftykins> i use the backtrack 3 LiveCD
[21:19] <phonex01> what about 4965  ?
[21:19] <daftykins> just taking a class on network security and did a simple WEP cracking demo in fact, as old school as it is:D
[21:20] <phonex01> ok then tell me what is the problem with 4965 ?
[21:20] <daftykins> phonex01: you've already been linked to a hardware compatibility page, i've said they have a command to test, so pull your finger out and do something about it instead of expecting the answers to be handed to you
[21:20] <phonex01> i did
[21:20] <phonex01> i tested my device with injection test
[21:21] <phonex01> and it is worked
[21:21] <phonex01> 100%
[21:21] <daftykins> so what's the problem...
[21:21] <phonex01> ok i set the mon0 which is a virtual wlan deivce on channel 9
[21:21] <phonex01> but when i make scan it says that mon0 is on channel "-1" !
[21:22] <daftykins> when you say you're setting a channel, what are you really typing?
[21:23] <phonex01> ok i type this
[21:23] <phonex01> iwconfig channel 9 mon0
[21:23] <HazRPG> what that might be why
[21:24] <daftykins> why are you setting a channel anyway? :)
[21:24] <daftykins> what are you trying to do...
[21:24] <phonex01> i have to set the mon0 to have the same Freq as the Freq of AP im trying ti hack
[21:24] <HazRPG> it should be iwconfig [interface] [command]
[21:24] <daftykins> that's not how it works
[21:25] <HazRPG> ah, see now it all comes out... monitor mode isn't really a channel, what your trying to do is filter out a specific channel
[21:25] <HazRPG> you should know what MAC it is your trying to filter out
[21:25] <HazRPG> and do it that why, not by channel
[21:25] <phonex01> so ?
[21:26] <daftykins> you start by running "airodump-ng <interface>" to see what's available
[21:26] <phonex01> ok when i try to make ARP injection i have error
[21:26] <HazRPG> s/why/way*
[21:26] <phonex01> saying that AP working on channel 9 and my card on channel -1 !
[21:26] <daftykins> then you run this to get it to start capturing packets from a given AP...
[21:26] <daftykins> airodump-ng -c (channel) -w wep --bssid (paste AP's mac here) INTERFACE
[21:26] <phonex01> i do that
[21:26] <phonex01> i have problem with this
[21:27] <daftykins> that much is evident
[21:27] <phonex01> aireplay-ng -3 -b 74:EA:3A:BB:DA:04 wlan0
[21:27] <phonex01> 23:27:19  mon0 is on channel -1, but the AP uses channel 9
[21:27] <daftykins> ok well first off -3 is the wrong option for ARP injection :P
[21:27] <phonex01> so how can i fix that ?
[21:28] <HazRPG> isn't it -1?
[21:28] <HazRPG> been a really long time since I've done this
[21:28] <daftykins> -5 :>
[21:28] <HazRPG> ah
[21:28] <daftykins> well, depends which stage you're at
[21:28] <daftykins> -5 is what you pick to capture a packet you then want to fragment
[21:28] <daftykins> ready for ARP replay
[21:28] <phonex01> you mean change -3 to-5 ?
[21:29] <HazRPG> yeah
[21:29] <daftykins> i doubt it's that simple
[21:29] <daftykins> it looks like you're going wrong pretty early
[21:29] <phonex01> 23:29:10  Waiting for beacon frame (BSSID: 74:EA:3A:BB:DA:04) on channel -1
[21:29] <phonex01> 23:29:10  mon0 is on channel -1, but the AP uses channel 9
[21:29] <daftykins> what interfaces does "ifconfig -a" list?
[21:30] <phonex01> mon0 and mon1
[21:30] <phonex01> and wlan0
[21:30] <daftykins> 0o
[21:30]  * kazade is using IRC through Empathy for the first time
[21:30] <phonex01> i can remove mon1 by " airmon-ng stop mon1"
[21:30] <HazRPG> right, okay... my advice is save everything you've got ... restart and try again dude
[21:31] <daftykins> phonex01: so what course is this?
[21:31] <HazRPG> kazade: its not as good as say pidgin or xchat though - you'll slowly notice that... e.g. /msg doesn't work :/
[21:31] <phonex01> in modeling and simultion course we study that
[21:31] <daftykins> heh
[21:31] <daftykins> modelling and simulation 0o
[21:31] <kazade> HazRPG: Yeah, I might install Xchat again
[21:31] <daftykins> whaaaat
[21:31] <daftykins> irssi!
[21:32] <daftykins> the masochist's client
[21:32] <phonex01> do you know that aircrack uses simultion model to hack networks ?
[21:32] <kazade> I've just installed ElementaryOS and it's so lightweight it seems a shame to bloat it up with apps ;)
[21:32] <MartijnVdS> !xyproblem
[21:32] <MartijnVdS> strange bot :)
[21:32] <phonex01> so guys what is the problem !
[21:32] <phonex01> it is really strange
[21:32] <daftykins> phonex01: i don't know it uses such strange words 0o
[21:32] <phonex01> me ?
[21:32] <daftykins> phonex01: i don't really think an Ubuntu help channel really has anything to do with "help me crack WEP" really
[21:33] <phonex01> i'm not asking that
[21:33] <phonex01> and if i want to hack someone i have an embedded system do that
[21:34] <daftykins> well whoop-de-doo
[21:34] <phonex01> and if you dont know there is an embedded system build with wifi module and Microchip TCP stack can hack WEP , WPA and WPA-PSK
[21:34] <phonex01> and i have it , but i dont want to hack someone
[21:34] <dutchie> why do you have it then?
[21:34] <daftykins> WPA TKIP maybe :>
[21:34] <phonex01> why do i have it ?
[21:34] <phonex01> thsi is my work
[21:34] <phonex01> im working in Ics and embedded systems
[21:35] <phonex01> and anything new in this filed i normally love to have it
[21:35] <MartijnVdS> so set up your own network to hack
[21:35] <MartijnVdS> you must have a spare AP lying around'
[21:35] <MartijnVdS> ?
[21:35] <phonex01> i want to use Aircrack because i have a presentation about aircrack
[21:35] <daftykins> what are you running it from?
[21:35] <phonex01> and by the way i have three internet lines
[21:35] <phonex01> HSPA+ with 21 Mbps
[21:36] <phonex01> so plz dont try to look like " owner man !! " first  im a msulim and i will never hack someone or someone network
[21:37] <phonex01> because in m religion this behave is "forbidden "
[21:37] <phonex01> got that ?
[21:37] <phonex01> so if you can help me about aircrack then say what you have or keep silent
[21:37] <daftykins> well with that attitude you can get stuffed
[21:37] <DJones> !attitude | phonex01
[21:37] <MartijnVdS> phonex01: (keep in mind: Speeding is forbidden, it still happens ;))
[21:38] <daftykins> i for one cannot be bothered with you
[21:38] <MartijnVdS> !xy
[21:38] <MartijnVdS> I think it's a case of that
[21:39] <ali1234> wut
[21:39] <DJones> Folks may want to step away from the keyboard for 10 minutes or so & let feelings settle down
[21:39] <ali1234> you lost me at "XY"
[21:39] <phonex01> ok im sorry anyway
[21:39] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: http://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem
[21:39]  * MartijnVdS gets another beer :)
[21:39] <shauno> DJones: did that a long time ago :)
[21:39] <dutchie> ooh, beer
[21:40] <dutchie> that sounds like a good idea
[21:40] <daftykins> folks should suggest to folks less
[21:40] <phonex01> ok i think i have to leave to help protesters or maybe wait for a while ....
[21:40] <phonex01> anyway it is cold !
[21:40] <shauno> tonight, my poison is baileys, watered down with various leftover christmas pressents
[21:41] <shauno> it's my revenge for working 36 hours over paddys :)
[21:41] <gr33npeace> shauno: like socks?
[21:42] <shauno> gr33npeace: various whiskeys that I couldn't bring myself to drink straight
[21:42] <gr33npeace> shauno: baileys and whiskey?
[21:42] <Cepheus> ali1234: If you mention a problem, but only ask about a solution to your problem, it stops others from suggesting other solutions which might be better.
[21:42] <shauno> gr33npeace: it's the only way to drink it
[21:42] <gr33npeace> shauno: what's wrong with a dash of water,or a single icecube?
[21:43] <shauno> gr33npeace: baileys is essentially cream & irish whiskey.  all I do is alter the ratio until it's a little less sweet, but enough to cover up the trash my neighbours gave me
[21:43] <gr33npeace> shauno: hahaha, ok man... you're ok... I am jealous.
[21:44] <gr33npeace> I saw there are some empathy users here, I was looking for a theme that's simple, but always posts the time next to the messages.... can anyone suggest one that fits the bill?
[21:44] <HazRPG> phonex01: ooo I'm a muslim too :)
[21:44] <phonex01> really ?
[21:44] <phonex01> where are you from ?
[21:45] <zleap> HI
[21:45] <gr33npeace> you see, i work with some right lazy sods, and I want to start keeping them to their promises...  :D
[21:45] <phonex01> HazRPG where are you from ?
[21:46] <HazRPG> phonex01: UK
[21:46] <phonex01> wlecome
[21:46] <phonex01> ok im from jordan
[21:46] <HazRPG> phonex01: mum's egyptian, and my dad is a revert
[21:46] <phonex01> nice to meet you
[21:46] <phonex01> talk to me on private ?
[21:46] <HazRPG> nice to meet you too
[21:47] <shauno> phonex01: I'm curious, and I hope this doesn't sound rude, but could I ask why you chose the -uk channel for this?
[21:47] <zleap> english speaking perhaps,
[21:47] <shauno> I noticed we had a visitor for lagos the other night, and I'm genuinely curious as to what brings them
[21:48] <MartijnVdS> our hospitality :)
[21:48] <gr33npeace> surely the welcoming and helpful british attitude?
[21:48] <phonex01> hahah
[21:48] <phonex01> why ?
[21:48] <zleap> that too
[21:48] <shauno> phonex01: as a brit, I'm genuinely curious what it is that draws people
[21:48] <shauno> not trying to be negative at all; just nosey
[21:49] <DJones> shauno: We get quite a few ukrainian thinking that -uk is ukraine
[21:49] <shauno> DJones: see, that one makes sense to me
[21:50] <shauno> but for instance, the person asking for help downloading backtrack a night or two ago, was lagos
[21:50] <phonex01> shauni im not a TERRORIST !
[21:50] <shauno> I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just curious why the first person I've ever seen online from there, chose a -uk room
[21:51] <daftykins> those poor people
[21:51] <shauno> phonex01: nothing to do with that at all
[21:51] <daftykins> even worse if they appear outside of UK hours
[21:51] <phonex01> what do you mean ?
[21:51] <HazRPG> see I at first thought -uk was ukrain at first when I was looking for a more localised LoCo about 3 years ago... but since I couldn't find a GB or GB-UK I assumed it was this one
[21:51] <shauno> I mean it's nothing to do with terrorism :)  I'm not that kinda person   lol
[21:52] <phonex01> i hope so
[21:52] <ali1234> shauno: xchat autojoins this channel by default under certain conditions
[21:52] <phonex01> becuase it is common idea about MUSLIMS
[21:52] <HazRPG> phonex01: don't worry shauno's a nice guy, he's just curious :)
[21:52] <ali1234> i'm not sure what those conditions are but there's got to be a chance of it getting it wrong...
[21:52] <phonex01> ok no problem
[21:52] <MartijnVdS> phonex01: It means that if you ask a question here at a time that's night in the UK, you might not get an answer, because everyone'll be asleep
[21:52] <ali1234> everyone except me
[21:52] <phonex01> ok then they have to wake up
[21:52] <phonex01> hahah
[21:52] <MartijnVdS> or HazRPG
[21:52] <shauno> jordan's not so bad, because their timezone is close to ours.  when we're asleep, he'll be too
[21:52] <shauno> lagos .. I'm not even sure where that is
[21:52] <DJones> MartijnVdS: Except HazRPG Who'll still be awake :)
[21:53] <MartijnVdS> shauno: Sure, but wait for the Aussies :)
[21:53] <shauno> MartijnVdS: they're not banned?
[21:53] <shauno> or are we on speaking terms since the ashes :)
[21:53] <HazRPG> yeah, I'm usually awake at silly hours
[21:53] <phonex01> it is 23:53
[21:53] <MartijnVdS> shauno: that would explain their absence
[21:53] <MartijnVdS> shauno: Kiwis as well
[21:53] <shauno> seriously not trying to offend anyone.  just trying to understand the choice
[21:54] <shauno> eg, I wouldn't go to ubuntu-fr looking for help
[21:54] <MartijnVdS> shauno: issyl0 would :)
[21:54] <MartijnVdS> shauno: It seems like a sane choice if you know (a bit of) the language
[21:54] <shauno> but so does #ubuntu proper
[21:54] <gr33npeace> shauno: sometimes I log into the Brasilian channel, as I am trying to learn Brasilian Portuguese...
[21:54] <shauno> well, it doesn't it's full of crazies.  but it makes sense on paper ..
[21:54] <MartijnVdS> It's why I'm here.. I speak English, I don't like #ubuntu (too crowded), or #ubuntu-nl (too stupid)
[21:54] <MartijnVdS> So I came here :)
[21:55] <Synth_sam> hi all
[21:55] <daftykins> you can get newbie overload in #ubuntu
[21:55] <MartijnVdS> shauno: Speaking of French -- http://3voor12.vpro.nl/speler/luisterpaal/44540018
[21:55] <MartijnVdS> shauno: French summer pop :)
[21:55] <shauno> fair enough, just thought I'd ask
[21:55] <gr33npeace> daftykins: agree... it can scroll way too fast for me
[21:55] <MartijnVdS> gr33npeace: Especially on release day :)
[21:55] <phonex01> shauno do you like muslims ? or you hate them ?
[21:56] <gr33npeace> MartijnVdS: oh god yes!  hahaha
[21:56] <shauno> phonex01: that'd be a difficult discussion
[21:56] <phonex01> why ?
[21:56] <HazRPG> shauno: yeah I joined here since I wanted english-speaking people, I originally joined #ubuntu but the intelligence level of some of the questions was a bit... erm... "I'm sorry are you from the past!?" worthy
[21:56] <phonex01> more details ...
[21:56] <gr33npeace> phonex01: quite a general question there... do you like people or hate them!?  :)
[21:56] <MartijnVdS> phonex01: To most people, it doesn't really matter what you believe in for them to help you, or to be friendly/friends with them
[21:57] <shauno> phonex01: I'm not a huge fan of islam.  but much in the same way, I'm not a huge fan of christianity or judaism either
[21:57] <MartijnVdS> At least, that's my opinion :)
[21:57] <Myrtti> randomness
[21:57] <DJones> phonex01: Thats not really an appropriate question to ask somebody
[21:57] <MartijnVdS> Myrtti: Randomness to you too!
[21:57] <Cepheus> I don't have opinions on people because of their beliefs, just their actions.
[21:57] <Myrtti> indeed
[21:57] <phonex01> yes it is do you know why ?
[21:57] <daftykins> oh dear, someone wants to setup SSH to a box they're already remote from
[21:58] <MartijnVdS> Myrtti: actually, that's a good greeting :)
[21:58] <shauno> phonex01: I guess the main point is that I wouldn't think any less of someone for being a muslim.  or a christian, or jewish.  but the religions themselves  (any of them) .. they're just not my cup of tea
[21:58] <Myrtti> mmmm tea
[21:58] <daftykins> religions seem to make you have to... do stuff :)
[21:58] <gr33npeace> love tea.
[21:58] <phonex01> because since 1890 UK deal with Middle east as _____
[21:58] <Cepheus> shauno: agree...  I am a man of science.
[21:59] <daftykins> or not do stuff!
[21:59] <phonex01> i dont ant to say that bad word
[21:59] <gr33npeace> phonex01: do remember that foreign policy is one thing, "normal" people are another
[21:59] <daftykins> unfortunately you go home tonight with our blankety blank chequebook and pen
[21:59] <shauno> phonex01: safe to say, I have not been involved with UK foreign policy at any time since 1890 :)
[22:00] <MartijnVdS> shauno: you didn't vote?!
[22:00] <shauno> MartijnVdS: actually, no
[22:00] <MartijnVdS> shauno: then the current libdem/etc. issues are your fault! :P
[22:00] <Cepheus> politicians are elected by the general populace but rarely speak the minds of the general populace =p
[22:00] <MartijnVdS> *ahem* ##politics
[22:00] <shauno> I didn't register to vote before I left the UK, which has rendered me inelligible for overseas voting
[22:00] <gr33npeace> MartijnVdS: they're my fault too...
[22:00]  * dutchie waves his hand in the "not involved in UK foreign policy since 1890" camp
[22:00] <shauno> ^5 dutchie
[22:01] <ali1234> as if anyone here has any control over foreign policy
[22:01] <dutchie> though i can't be blamed for being born 2 months later than what would have allowed me to vote in the last election
[22:01] <phonex01> "normal" people are another !!!!
[22:01] <gr33npeace> phonex01: yeah i know... no one in IRC is normal...
[22:01] <daftykins> ali1234: Guernsey law could well rest in my hands!
[22:01] <shauno> that's it.  we're people.  if you're people, welcome.  if you're a politician, there's better channels / prisons for you.
[22:01] <phonex01> if so why they did not stoped there gov when they get in iraq in 2003 and destory it ?
[22:02] <ali1234> daftykins: you could invade sealand perhaps?
[22:02] <daftykins> that was last friday
[22:02] <daftykins> it didn't end well
[22:02] <Myrtti> soapbox is at hyde park
[22:02] <dutchie> daftykins: did someone stub their toe?
[22:02] <daftykins> dutchie: worse, there was... an incident
[22:02] <daftykins> some bacteria were harmed
[22:02] <dutchie> :o
[22:03] <AlanBell> shauno: there is an #ubuntu-gb channel, it diverts to here
[22:03] <AlanBell> in fact that is what xchat autojoins
[22:04] <AlanBell> #ubuntu-$countrycode
[22:05] <shauno> AlanBell: I'm not sure -gb would be any more obvious to either of the examples I can think of
[22:06] <daftykins> two letter country codes can be quite cryptic
[22:06] <daftykins> i should start up #ubuntu-gg
[22:06] <daftykins> but there'd only be me in it
[22:06] <shauno> but as I've been at pains to point out, it's a genuine curiosity, not a criticism of any kind
[22:07] <HazRPG> phonex01: in all honesty, most people here don't really care for race/religion - as people are polite and friendly all are welcome here :)
[22:07] <phonex01> ok we will not tallk about policy
[22:07] <phonex01> or religion
[22:07] <phonex01> now i think i have to go
[22:07] <phonex01> protesters calling me !!!!!!!!
[22:08] <gr33npeace> phonex01: good luck, stay safe!
[22:08] <phonex01> hahahah i have a gun
[22:08] <gr33npeace> ....
[22:08] <phonex01> it is not that big
[22:08] <phonex01> M16 hahahah
[22:08] <shauno> I'll echo "stay safe" then.  you could have someone's eye out with that
[22:08] <gr33npeace> or worse!
[22:09] <phonex01> oh no man
[22:09] <gr33npeace> you could definitely get a bruise
[22:09] <DJones> phonex01: Thats enough, time to end that conversation
[22:09] <phonex01> it is a tradtion here
[22:09] <phonex01> oh DJones ?
[22:09] <Myrtti> moving on
[22:09] <Synth_sam> indeed
[22:09] <phonex01> you speak like our police ?
[22:09] <MartijnVdS> [ Meanwhile ]
[22:09] <gr33npeace> anyway, I did come here to ask some advice from the masses
[22:10] <gr33npeace> I saw there are some empathy users here, I was looking for a theme that's simple, but always posts the time next to the messages.... can anyone suggest one that fits the bill?
[22:10] <MartijnVdS> gr33npeace: the default "time once in a while" theme isn't enough?
[22:10] <ali1234> gr33npeace: if you find one please let me know
[22:10]  * MartijnVdS doesn't know any other themes than default
[22:10] <gr33npeace> MartijnVdS: oh!  I hadn't seen that!
[22:10] <ali1234> gr33npeace: i've been looking for such for years, i even went and bugged the developers about it
[22:10] <shauno> I think the time is driven by the engine, not the theme
[22:11] <ali1234> yet still the only adium themes that work are the "hello kitty" ones
[22:11] <gr33npeace> gross
[22:11] <gr33npeace> ok, I will continue my search!
[22:11] <ali1234> nope, you can do it in the theme
[22:11] <ali1234> i even tried to make a theme
[22:11] <ali1234> and uncovered a few bugs
[22:11] <ali1234> still didn't actually manage to make empathy look decent though
[22:11] <gr33npeace> gotta dash... Portuguese lesson!  cheers all and good night
[22:12] <shauno> I may have to take up that challenge sometime.  I'm kinda used to adium
[22:12] <shauno> (and realise that empathy's implementation is half-baked)
[22:12] <ali1234> what you can't do with adium themes is auto colour nicks
[22:12] <MartijnVdS> gr33npeace: good luck!
[22:12] <ali1234> at least not time i checked
[22:13] <ali1234> also there's something weird with the way paragraphs are formatted that makes everything run together into a huge wall of text
[22:13] <shauno> adium itself is pretty horrid for irc.  it fares best at IM
[22:13] <ali1234> couldn't seem to figure that one out either
[22:13] <ali1234> i don't see why thetre is a different between irc and im
[22:13] <ali1234> ugh
[22:13] <shauno> there's more than 2 of us in here
[22:14] <ali1234> so?
[22:14] <shauno> so me & them is a colour issue which doesn't ordinarily exist
[22:14] <ali1234> how does the special case of 2 people affect anything?
[22:14] <shauno> there's stuff I sent vs stuff I received.  nick colouring is ancillary
[22:14] <ali1234> the problem is that empathy devs see multiperson chat as a special case instead of seeing 2 people as a special case
[22:14] <BigRedS> with IM you're normally pretty sure that whatever you didn't say was said by the single person you're talkin to
[22:14] <ali1234> if you look at it this way it's not even that special
[22:15] <shauno> BigRedS: bingo
[22:15] <ali1234> anyway, the total failure of empathy and irc and the lack of a decent theme is the reason i don't use it
[22:15] <shauno> adium is very much like gaim.  an IM client that does multiuser chat poorly
[22:15] <BigRedS> I've never really been grasped by a want to treat the two the same, either. I have an IM client and an IRC client and I've never suspected that either should do the job of the other. But I don't really know why
[22:15] <ali1234> gaim doesn't exist?
[22:15] <ali1234> you mean pidgin?
[22:16] <BigRedS> it's now pidgin...
[22:16] <BigRedS> but it's still Gaim in my head
[22:16] <ali1234> pidgin is what i use all day every day
[22:16] <shauno> I frankly don't care what it's called.  you know exactly what I'm talking about
[22:16] <ali1234> it works far better than empathy
[22:16] <BigRedS> I use empathy 'cause it does XMPP priority
[22:16] <Synth_sam> ali1234: the IRC in pidgin is terrible
[22:16] <BigRedS> but then I get annoyed 'cause it doesn't do auto-idle
[22:16] <ali1234> Synth_sam: maybe but it is still better than in empathy
[22:16] <Synth_sam> true
[22:16] <Synth_sam> I'm using irssi for IRC
[22:16] <shauno> I haven't used linux on the desktop since 2006.  last I used it, it was called gaim.
[22:17] <ali1234> point is, pidgin is the best client that supports both irc and xmpp
[22:17] <HazRPG> hmmm, I'd just like to point out Jordanians are actually nice people
[22:17] <Cepheus> I use weechat!
[22:17] <Synth_sam> I have to use MSN, so pidgin is far superior to empathy
[22:17] <HazRPG> its the Saudi's you've gotta worry about
[22:17] <shauno> I have used empathy in a VM, but disliked it because it was difficult to close without it /part'ing channels I was in, which doesn't bode well with my setup
[22:18] <Cepheus> I use empathy for most IM networks, emesene for WLM, and weechat via screen/ssh for irc
[22:18] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: People are pretty nice people. It's the not-nice people you need to worry about ;)
[22:18] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: agreed
[22:18] <MattJ> +1
[22:19] <shauno> Cepheus: I use adium for IM networks, for which empathy seems a close equivalent.  and then irssi-proxy & whatever client is native at hand for irc
[22:19] <daftykins> ooooh i hate my joooob :/
[22:19] <daftykins> even though it's temporary
[22:19] <daftykins> teaching is hell
[22:19] <Cepheus> MartijnVdS: +1 for race-free people assessment
[22:19] <shauno> I like teaching.  I dislike customers :((
[22:19] <Synth_sam> daftykins: what are you teaching?
[22:19] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: There's a Dutch book about this "Het zijn net mensen" ("They're just people") -- http://www.bol.com/nl/p/nederlandse-boeken/het-zijn-net-mensen/1001004002412120/index.html
[22:19] <HazRPG> ali1234: didn't realise you used Pidgin - I had you down more as a irrsi guy
[22:20] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: google translate should help :)
[22:20] <daftykins> Synth_sam: IT at A level, but not actual A-level, just at the same 'level' :D
[22:20] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Don't worry, I've seen my share of different kinds of people - so I do know :)
[22:20] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: good :)
[22:20] <ali1234> HazRPG: i don't use crippled software just to seem more leet :)
[22:21] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: this is the translation btw: http://www.stanley-livingstone.nl/luyendijk-people-like-us-b-3446.html
[22:21] <shauno> MartijnVdS: I'm curious; does that mean belgians are people too?  ;)
[22:21] <ali1234> got over that when i quit using gentoo
[22:21] <Synth_sam> daftykins: ahh, I stopped studying IT "officially" at AS-level (years ago) it was dull
[22:21] <MartijnVdS> shauno: Only if they bake good fries :)
[22:21] <daftykins> Synth_sam: i'll bet. this is a BTEC national diploma course
[22:21] <shauno> MartijnVdS: I converted a yank to fries & mayo.  that was a good day.
[22:22] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1593762569
[22:22] <MartijnVdS> shauno: haha, mayo++
[22:22] <shauno> I use irssi 24/7, but rarely actually use it.  screen+irssi is my fallback, and the irssi-proxy module lets me throw whatever client I find best into the mix
[22:23] <HazRPG> mayo++ indeed!
[22:23] <Cepheus> i just like the old school feelin' =p
[22:23] <shauno> so I can drop in on my shell, my desktop, my phone, without being a spammy mess of joins/parts/altnicks
[22:24] <ali1234> never felt the need to irc while and out and about
[22:24] <ali1234> i just read the scrollback when i get home
[22:25] <shauno> quite often I'll be mid-conversation when it's time to leave for work
[22:25] <shauno> I'll knock my phone on so I get beeped if anyone follows up
[22:25] <ali1234> "sorry i have to go to work now ttyl"
[22:26] <daftykins> mmm i run irssi (this one) from a VM on a file server
[22:26] <shauno> I rarely (but have) talk all the way to work.  I just get a notification that way
[22:26]  * MartijnVdS runs this on a vps
[22:26] <shauno> this is on a vps, but via a local client atm
[22:27] <shauno> that's why I love irssi-proxy.  I can be via  gui client one minute, via ssh the next; without spamming people
[22:31] <ali1234> if people didn't want to know when people enter and leave the channel they would turn off those notifications...
[22:33] <daftykins> it's better netiquette not to spam channels with clones
[22:34] <daftykins> $nickname-guess-what-device-i-just-bought
[22:34] <ali1234> that is a little bit annoying
[22:34] <ali1234> $nick-laptop is okay
[22:34] <ali1234> $nick-mbp is not :)
[22:36] <daftykins> ^_^
[22:36] <shauno> well, for instance
[22:36] <shauno> I know people that show up as foo, foo|work, and foo|mobile
[22:36] <MartijnVdS> foo|toilet
[22:36] <shauno> I consider that bad form, and work my setup around it
[22:36] <daftykins> foo|drivinghomeforchristmas
[22:37] <ali1234> i just ghost myself
[22:37] <shauno> they'll say, I forgot to close irc before I went to work
[22:37] <AlanBell> http://blip.tv/file/4904015
[22:37] <shauno> I just join in the same irc.  with multiple clients at work if it fits the situation
[22:37] <shauno> er, at once
[22:37] <shauno> (I never claimed to be sober)
[22:38] <ali1234> AlanBell: "59 seconds = unacceptably stale news"
[22:38] <shauno> I think the big part is, I'm not always a gobshite.  sometimes I'll peek in, and then leave again.  this way, I do so without a trace :)
[22:38] <ali1234> i hope you were being ironic
[22:39] <shauno> I knew one guy that'd show up as dave|mobile and then rant about how he had connectivity on the train.  again.  the same train he took home from work 5 days a week.
[22:40] <shauno> I simply don't want to be that guy
[22:40] <shauno> and irssi-proxy is so easy
[22:41] <shauno> (and lets me define ports per the list work passes ;)
[22:41] <daftykins> =]
[22:42] <shauno> the one thing their nannywall does right, is give us a list of ports/services which are acceptable
[22:43] <shauno> sad thing is, I used to have a free pass on it.  someone else took it up when we got aquired, and I found it easier to route around than to go play in the red tape
[22:43] <daftykins> take it you're not in the IT department then?
[22:43] <shauno> ish
[22:44] <shauno> I'm on the dc team for our site.  the actual 'IT department' are in bangalore
[22:45] <daftykins> haha
[22:45] <daftykins> "hallo sah"
[22:45] <shauno> I will admit, they're not idiots
[22:45] <shauno> they just don't seem to understand the different roles we have in place
[22:46] <shauno> eg, I have access that's completely without my job description, because I train other people on those units
[22:47] <shauno> that just doesn't seem to make sense to them at all
[22:48] <daftykins> sounds like a bureaucratic workplace
[22:48] <shauno> to the extent that I'm glad we outsource security locally, else I simply wouldn't have physical access
[22:48] <shauno> there's 140-150 thousand employees globally.  bureaucratic barely scratches it
[22:51] <shauno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_Electric   appears to be missing atleast 2, possibly 3 acquisitions
[22:54] <shauno> the job itself is boring, but I get to train network integration for UPSes 39k to 499k, which is actually fun
[22:55] <shauno> (we don't train 500k+, just stick a developer on a plain.  that's also entertaining, but in the wrong way)
[22:55] <shauno> er, plane
[22:55] <daftykins> :)
[22:55] <Pendulum> shauno: are developers on a plane like snakes on a plane?
[22:56] <shauno> possibly worse
[22:56]  * Pendulum once ended up in a tabletop game that somehow involved snakes on a plain.
[22:56] <Pendulum> It was really the worst joke ever
[22:56] <shauno> platform development are strange creatures
[22:57]  * AlanBell contemplates snakes on an n-manifold#
[22:57] <shauno> we had one walk off a site in $easterneuropeancountry because he was sick of being robbed
[22:57] <AlanBell> if we consider the snakes to be one dimensional
[22:58] <AlanBell> good job I don't make films isn't it
[22:58] <daftykins> lmao
[22:58] <shauno> they're simply not afraid of people in suits.  it's inspiring and terrifying at the same time
[22:58] <daftykins> I ain't trainin' no ****ing developers on no ****ing plane!
[22:59] <shauno> "dude, we got a call you didn't show up this morning.  where are you?"  "denmark."  "but we set you to ....."
[23:01] <shauno> but yeah.  it makes getting anyone to agree to anything a complain pain in the rear
[23:01] <shauno> I had to fight to get access to me.com so I didn't have to stuff my shifts into my phone one by one.  then it disappeared again
[23:02] <daftykins> 0o
[23:03] <daftykins> could be worse
[23:03] <daftykins> your IT department where you work could ignore you until you stop trying to get stuff fixed :D
[23:03] <shauno> oh it could.  my job's so easy I don't get yelled at for napping
[23:03] <shauno> I just miss the old nannyfilter :)
[23:04] <shauno> the old one had a lil box where I could type my key in and make it go away.  the new one just goes blah blah blah
[23:05] <daftykins> mm
[23:05] <daftykins> what product is it?
[23:06] <shauno> I have no idea
[23:06] <shauno> it doesn't give much away
[23:06] <shauno> to the extent that when it first appeared, I was a little freaked out because I was seeing facebook 'like me' iframes that bore nothing but the corp logo
[23:10] <ali1234> why is peter crouch on horizon?
[23:10] <AlanBell> does this work for people: http://blip.tv/file/4904015
[23:11] <ali1234> not if it is supposed to be more than 3 seconds long
[23:12] <AlanBell> bother
[23:12] <ali1234> the one you posted before way ok though
[23:12] <BigRedS> i just got 3 seconds out of the twitter one..
[23:12] <ali1234> wait its the same one
[23:12] <ali1234> how odd
[23:12] <BigRedS> s/3/only 3/
[23:13] <AlanBell> blip seems to have now broken it
[23:13] <ali1234> nice
[23:13] <ali1234> use youtube
[23:13] <ali1234> it actually works
[23:14] <popey> http://blip.tv/file/4904015?filename=Alanbell-CircleOfFriendsTheTwitterClient799.ogv
[23:15] <popey> its fine, their conversion to flv probably failed, it usually does
[23:15] <ali1234> ah yeah that's probably why it worked for me before
[23:15] <ali1234> if it hadn't finished converting
[23:25] <brobostigon> good night everyone, sleep well.
[23:26] <daftykins> nn brobostigon o/
[23:27] <brobostigon> good night daftykins
[23:37] <dutchie> AlanBell: i saw a very interesting talk about mathematical flags, which included sticking 1-d vector spaces into n-d vector spaces
[23:38] <dutchie> http://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/~grabowsk/talks/invariants11.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grassmannian
[23:38] <dutchie> if you understand that, you are doing better than me
[23:39] <popey> dutchie: see what you mean about the moon
[23:39] <dutchie> yeah, it is very very bright
[23:39] <popey> yeah
[23:40] <popey> is it full tomorrow?
[23:40] <popey> that'll make for a nice evening journey home
[23:40] <popey> (after beer and rugby)
[23:42] <dutchie> not sure
[23:42] <dutchie> i would check my brit astro handbook, but i can't remember whether i got a 2011 one before my membership expired
[23:44] <gord> brightest full moon in years tomorrow yep