[00:20] <sebas5384> lazyPower: ping?
[07:29] <leotr> hi! we are going to buy one server (64 gb ram, dual processor) for virtualization purposes. Can juju be useful for us?
[08:45] <Bidule> hi
[08:45] <Bidule> amazing project !
[08:45] <Bidule> really thanks for that
[10:30] <rbasak> jamespage: I think the juju-core (in Utopic) dep8 tests are fetching tools from streams.canonical.com even though they're using the local provider. I wonder: if we want the archive to be as self-sufficient as possible, then can we eliminate that?
[10:30] <rbasak> Is that what juju bootstrap --upload-tools does, and if so, do you think I should use that in the tests?
[10:31] <rbasak> The way I see it, juju need not have any external dependencies in the local discover/test/development case.
[10:31] <rbasak> (if that's achievable)
[10:31] <jamespage> rbasak, --upload-tools is good I think
[13:51] <mivtachyahu> hi all, when I spin up Ubuntu 12.04 machines for Azure in juju, all the host names (/etc/hostname etc.) are set to "default". What is the best way to automatically set that to be the public-address / dns-address?
[13:54] <niedbalski__> hey bcsaller , please review https://code.launchpad.net/~niedbalski/charms/precise/rabbitmq-server/trunk/+merge/219909
[15:13] <l1l> new mysql charm seems broke, its creating empty databases with no tables
[15:24] <avoine> l1l: your application should creates table I think
[15:33] <Egoist> could someone tell me how relation-list command work in juju?
[15:48] <arosales> marcoceppi: Is there documentation somewhere for relation-ids and relation-list?
[15:50]  * arosales also browsing https://github.com/juju/juju/tree/master/doc
[15:50] <arosales> cory_fu ^
[15:50] <arosales> I don't think we cover that in juju.ubuntu.com/docs . .  .
[15:52] <arosales> cory_fu: mention here https://github.com/juju/juju/blob/master/doc/charms-in-action.txt which we also should have in our docs.
[15:52] <marcoceppi> arosales: we do
[15:52] <marcoceppi> we cover it in the docs
[15:52] <marcoceppi> arosales: Egoist https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/authors-hook-environment.html#relation-list
[15:53] <arosales> marcoceppi: ah even better
[15:53] <arosales> marcoceppi: we desparately need better searching in the docs :-(
[15:53] <arosales> cory_fu ^
[15:53] <marcoceppi> arosales: we need actual searching, we don't have that yet
[15:53] <arosales> good point, we should just do SCE for our sub pages
[15:54]  * marcoceppi could implement pretty quickly
[15:54] <Egoist> marcoceppi: why relation-list sometimes don't return all remote unit in current relation?
[15:54] <marcoceppi> Egoist: because that remote unit isn't available at the time the hook started
[15:55] <Egoist> marcoceppi: how to check that remote unit is available? Ping it, or something?
[15:55] <marcoceppi> relation-list
[15:56] <marcoceppi> if you have it listed in relation-list, then it's available
[15:58] <Egoist> marcoceppi: but how charm will know how many units should be listed?
[15:58] <marcoceppi> Egoist: it doesn't know how many should, it knows which ones currently are
[16:16] <mbruzek> Can someone tell me what the command `relation-ids` does and what it is good for?  https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/authors-hook-environment.html#relation-ids
[16:37] <lazyPower> sebas5384: Hey!
[16:38] <sebas5384> lazyPower: hey!
[16:38] <lazyPower> sebas5384: really sorry about missing you lastnight. I forgot to put it on my calendar and totally spaced it off :(
[16:38] <lazyPower> i'm a terrible person
[16:38] <sebas5384> hehe thats ok, it happens :)
[16:38] <sebas5384> next time we put in the agenda hehe
[16:38] <lazyPower> agreed
[16:39] <lazyPower> i felt pretty bad when i woke up this morning and went through my irc backlog to see you hanging out with no lazy in sight.
[16:39] <lazyPower> oops
[16:39] <lazyPower> hopefully you didnt cancel any plans to attend.
[16:40] <sebas5384> no worries, if you can we can do it today
[16:42] <sebas5384> i will be working on vagrant juju things with another colleague here at Taller, so we are going to make a brainstorm about the that
[16:43] <lazyPower> Sure
[16:43] <lazyPower> I'll be around today until late prepping for another proejct going live tomorrow.
[16:43] <sebas5384> i'll ping you, and if you can, more than welcome to join us
[16:43] <lazyPower> so I can host a hangout and order a pizza
[16:43] <sebas5384> ooh nice!
[16:43] <sebas5384> great!!
[17:03] <cjohnston> can anyone help me investigate bug #1319947 please
[17:03] <_mup_> Bug #1319947: LXC local provider fails to provision precise instances from a trusty host - take 2 <juju-core:Confirmed> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1319947>
[17:08] <jcastro> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/track/devops/
[17:08] <jcastro> please submit your sessions!
[17:17] <avoine> noodles775: do you think that would be a good occasion to talk about juju+ansible roles? ^
[17:18] <noodles775> avoine: yep, I've got a meeting proposed, which seems to be approved... just not in the schedule yet: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/michael.nelson/meetings
[17:18] <avoine> noodles775: ok , great!
[17:20] <avoine> noodles775: btw I'll will have something to show soon do you want me to do a pull request or should I put it else where?
[17:22] <noodles775> avoine: A pull request would be great, if it's a shared role (or fixes/additions to the shared roles). Otherwise just pointing me at your repo/branch is fine too :)
[17:22]  * noodles775 goes to put kids to bed.
[17:22] <avoine> noodles775: ok, perfect
[17:54] <cjohnston> jcastro: are you still unable to use juju local on trusty?
[17:55] <jcastro> yeah my stuff is stuck on pending
[18:06] <l1l> are constraints supposed to work when add-machine kvm/0 is used?
[18:06] <l1l> I can't get a kvm to launch without the default settings (1core, 512meg, 8gb)
[18:27] <dpb1> What is the right way to refresh lxc templates on juju local provider?  lxc-destroy --name <template> and just let juju refresh it?   Specifically the apt package cache gets out of date
[18:30] <sebas5384> jcastro: remember we talk about having more than one juju local?
[18:31] <sebas5384> jcastro: i did a poc to test that, https://github.com/sebas5384/ansible-juju-local
[18:31] <sebas5384> and now i use that for my vagrant workflow
[18:45] <jcastro> sebas5384, that looks awesome, sec, on the phone!
[18:46] <sebas5384> jcastro: :)
[19:14] <cjohnston> tvansteenburgh, marcoceppi, is there a way with amulet to load multiple deployer files?
[19:14] <marcoceppi> cjohnston: no, not at the moment, what's the use case?
[19:15] <cjohnston> marcoceppi: a true integration test...
[19:15] <cjohnston> we have ~a dozen deployer files...
[19:15] <marcoceppi> so you want to deploy all of those at once?
[19:15] <hazmat> marcoceppi, what if the deployer files load other ones.. ie are you parsing it are passing through?
[19:15] <cjohnston> all or subsets
[19:19] <tvansteenburgh> iirc amulet just takes the first target from the deployer file
[19:23] <marcoceppi> hazmat: if you load multiple deployments, I'm not sure exactly what happens, I think it just resets the deployment, tvansteenburgh do you know?
[19:24]  * marcoceppi is reminded about doing a non-amulet test, will have that for hazmat's modest proposal next week
[19:27] <tgz> Hi all. Just starting my investigation into juju. I am wondering what happens if a node launched with juju goes down. Does juju monitor and relaunch a node?
[19:29] <marcoceppi> tgz: so, it used to but we found that sometimes there's network latency in a cloud environment, and a node would appear offline but it wasn't, so it'd launch a duplicate and now you've got two nodes registered as the same
[19:30] <marcoceppi> tgz: so, juju status will show agent-state as down (unavailable) and you can juju add-unit to add another unit of that service group
[19:30] <marcoceppi> tgz: juju also is fully driven by a websocket API, so you could write tools that monitor the status and does this. You could also extend that same pattern to implement autoscaling etc
[19:32] <tgz> OK. Thanks for the reply. Does the agent-state have the same false positives issue?
[19:40] <marcoceppi> tgz: it's susceptible to timeouts,I hhink the timeout is set to 2m
[19:43] <tgz> Sounds good. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time.
[20:38] <cory_fu> How much of an issue is interface name collision between charms?  That is, if two completely unrelated charms both use the same interface name but are never likely to be related, does the conflict matter?
[20:48] <marcoceppi> ppetraki: hey, remember your relation-get out of band issue?
[20:48] <marcoceppi> cory_fu: you should never have an interface that doesn't connect with it's counterpart
[20:49] <ppetraki> marcoceppi, yeah
[20:49] <marcoceppi> cory_fu: if you have an interface, then it should connect
[20:49] <marcoceppi> if it doesn't then one charm is using the wrong interface name
[20:49] <marcoceppi> ppetraki: `relation-get -r engine:0 - nginx/0`
[20:49] <marcoceppi> the - will get you all output
[20:49] <ppetraki> marcoceppi, oh come on...
[20:50]  * ppetraki adds to quirks list
[20:50] <ppetraki> marcoceppi, thanks
[20:50] <marcoceppi> np, I'll make a note to document it in the docs
[20:51] <lazyPower> hey marcoceppi, i'm probably the last to know but did you know about this? http://paste.ubuntu.com/7597307/
[20:51] <lazyPower> it even puts you in teh failed hook context
[20:51] <marcoceppi> lazyPower: dude, I wrote that plugin
[20:51] <lazyPower> oh
[20:52]  * lazyPower is the last to know then
[20:52] <marcoceppi> https://github.com/juju/plugins/blob/master/juju-debug
[20:52] <l1l> are constraints supposed to work when add-machine kvm:0 is used? I can't get a kvm to launch without the default settings (1core, 512meg, 8gb)
[20:53] <thumper> l1l: yes
[20:54] <l1l> hmm, must be broke then.. i've tried deploying with more CPU's and more ram, and it still used the default
[21:18] <cory_fu> marcoceppi: I'm asking about the case when there's a conflict.  That is, two charms use the same interface name for different protocols.  Have we had to deal with resolving such a case before?
[21:18] <marcoceppi> no, we haven't
[21:18] <marcoceppi> charms when they go through review are generally checked to make sure there are no collisions
[21:19] <cory_fu> That's going to get exponentially harder as time goes on
[21:19] <cory_fu> But obviously we should look for interface names that may be too generic when reviewing
[21:19] <marcoceppi> cory_fu: well, an interface registry/testing framework will make lite of that work
[21:20] <marcoceppi> cory_fu: well, we have a few generic interfaces already, and they're great! For example, monitors and local-monitors
[21:20] <marcoceppi> super generic, but super flexible
[21:21] <cory_fu> I'm coming at it from the case of having a set of charms that are likely to only ever talk to each other, and wondering how much I should worry about potential conflicts ahead of time
[21:21] <designated> what about being able to specify the network interface used when deploying charms?  as an example, I would like to use two bonded 10Gbe interfaces as bond0 instead of the 1Gbe NICs in the servers.  Is there a way to do this?
[21:22] <designated> or is there logic to use the network interface with the most available bandwidth?
[21:33] <designated> marcoceppi, can you answer my question?
[21:34] <marcoceppi> designated: juju is adding network topology to it's constraints, but it's not available at the moment
[21:34] <designated> marcoceppi, so there is currently no way to specify the use of one network interface over another when building relationships?
[21:35] <marcoceppi> designated: not in the interface, but you could add it to your charm's configuration
[21:35] <marcoceppi> designated: openstack does this, it allows you to specify the nic you want to configure your service to talk on
[21:36] <designated> I'm deploying openstack on maas and I just want to tell the charms to use bond0 instead of the single 1Gbe interfaces.
[21:36] <designated> is that fiarly easy?
[21:36] <marcoceppi> designated: most openstack charms have that option, let me see if I can find it
[21:37] <marcoceppi> maybe not, I'm not well versed in the openstack charms
[21:37] <marcoceppi> or, maybe it's part of neutron
[21:37] <designated> i see where you can set things like HA interface or vip interface
[21:38] <marcoceppi> right
[21:38] <designated> but ceph for example has nothing about specifying an interface.  how will other openstack services talk to ceph nodes on my 10Gbe interfaces instead of the 1Gbe interfaces?
[21:38] <marcoceppi> designated: well, I assume the 10Gbe are on a different network?
[21:39] <designated> marcoceppi, yes they are
[21:39] <marcoceppi> so if all of openstack has been configured for that network they should reach other on those interfaces
[21:39] <designated> but each node also has a single 1Gbe NIC on the same network used for maas
[21:39] <designated> what's the stop them from building a relationship on the 1Gbe NICs?
[21:40] <marcoceppi> I can see the issue, so it's advertising itself as on the MAAS network IP range
[21:40] <marcoceppi> and not the bonded networking
[21:40] <designated> right
[21:40] <marcoceppi> This is where juju knowing the network topology will come in handy, I think setting the VIP on ceph, MySQL, etc will make it so the charm advertises itself on that range rather thanthe 1Gbe nics
[21:40] <designated> i found this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/juju/2014-January/003392.html which provides a workaround when deploying on openstack but doesn't mention deploying on maas
[21:40] <marcoceppi> I believe that's how we overcame it in customer deployments
[21:41] <b0c1> hi
[21:41] <marcoceppi> designated: again, not as well versed in the openstack charms
[21:41] <b0c1> I try to use juju in vagrant... but I have a little problem
[21:41] <marcoceppi> jamespage and the ~openstack-charmers would be much more adept at answering, but most of them are European timezone
[21:41] <b0c1> after the first start everything works, but if I restart the vagrant machine the internal routing (juju gui iptables command) not run
[21:42] <marcoceppi> designated: https://launchpad.net/~openstack-charmers/+members
[21:42] <marcoceppi> designated: you could also mail the juju mailing list about it, so those in other timezones with more knowledge can reply
[21:42] <b0c1> so juju-gui accessible only inside the vagrant machine
[21:42] <marcoceppi><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[21:43] <designated> marcoceppi, thank you
[21:43] <marcoceppi> designated: np, sorry I couldn't be of more assistance
[21:47] <lazyPower> b0c1: you'll want to suspend the virtual image instead of halting it.
[21:47] <lazyPower> s/image/machine/
[21:48] <lazyPower> when you halt it and fire it back up, the cloud-init routine to setup that host bridging doesn't get executed.
[21:48] <b0c1> hmmm
[21:49] <b0c1> lazyPower: thnx...
[21:49] <b0c1> good to know...
[21:50] <marcoceppi> lazyPower: is there anyway to trap the vagrant halt command and warn the user before proceeding
[21:50] <lazyPower> marcoceppi: not that I'm aware of
[21:50] <lazyPower> we could monkeypatch vagrant, but thats not a great idea. its subject to breakage and odd behavior down the road as vagrant updates.
[21:54] <b0c1> lazyPower: only the routing not work after vagrant halt?
[21:54] <lazyPower> b0c1: thats about it. Everything else is a single time setup.
[21:55] <b0c1> why not write the cloud init script the routing into the rc.local ?
[21:55] <b0c1> fast and simple way...
[21:55] <marcoceppi> no, no monkeypatching
[21:55] <lazyPower> marcoceppi: i didnt' say it was a great idea, but you asked if there was any way.... thats all i've got :(
[21:56] <marcoceppi> http://i.imgur.com/tnk4BBl.gif
[21:56] <lazyPower> Really, we should probably add the port mapping to the Vagrantfile
[21:56] <lazyPower> that way it will persist through a halt
[21:57] <b0c1> ummm... the internal cloud init script will write the external vagrant file?
[21:57] <b0c1> I think rc.local is much cleaner...
[21:57] <lazyPower> b0c1: no, the port juju gui deploys to doesn't change. So adding it to the vagrantfile is the safe-bet.
[21:58] <lazyPower> the cloud-init script is calling the vagrant api to set that host-guest mapping.
[21:58] <b0c1> yeah but the juju-gui deployed into internal vagrant with different ip (maybe it´s random?)
[21:58] <b0c1> ohh it can?
[21:59] <lazyPower> b0c1: actually it may even be the shell provisioner thats setting it up, i haven't looked at it in a couple of weeks.
[21:59] <lazyPower> if you look in the box directory, you can see all of the provisioner statements.
[21:59] <lazyPower> which should be something like $HOME/.vagrant/boxes
[22:05] <b0c1> lazyPower: maybe I not understand the problem... but the juju gui run in a separated vagrant machine inside the vagrant machine...
[22:06] <lazyPower> b0c1: there's a juju-gui redirector service that gets deployed on first run.
[22:07] <lazyPower> when you watch teh scrolling output of a first run, it implicilty calls out its setup declaration "deploying the juju gui redirector"
[22:07] <lazyPower> and that's always bound to 6080 on the VM machine.
[22:07] <b0c1> lazyPower: in this case I can access the internal vagrant juju-gui as localhost in the main vagrant machine
[22:07] <lazyPower> i don't know if its in the upstart scripts to restart after a shutdown. I haven't gotten that far into it.
[22:08] <lazyPower> but really, aside from not being able to access it via a port redirect - you can also use sshuttle to route to the gui as a work around. Just hit the IP of teh juju-gui instance and you should be right back where you left off.
[22:08] <b0c1> but after restart I can´t access, I can only access when I direct connect the internal vagrant ip
[22:09] <b0c1> hmmm.... I never used sshuttle...
[22:10] <lazyPower> sebas5384: still kicking around/
[22:23] <sebas538_> lazyPower: yeah! but i'm planning to leave early today :(
[22:23] <sebas538_> here is +1h hehe
[22:24] <lazyPower> sebas5384: all good my friend. Just poking you since we were talking about linking up today
[22:24] <sebas5384> lazyPower: what about monday?
[22:24] <lazyPower> I tell ya what sebas5384, with tomorrow being friday and nobody works late on friday - lets shoot for next week
[22:24] <lazyPower> yeah
[22:25] <lazyPower> Lets try for monday to sync on a vagrant plugin and cook up some awesome sauce
[22:25] <sebas5384> lazyPower: that looks awesome for me!
[22:25] <sebas5384> same bat time?
[22:25] <sebas5384> 7pm EDT
[22:26] <sebas5384> ?
[22:26] <thumper> lazyPower: so about this pending python-django charm
[22:26] <thumper> lazyPower: what's happening with that?
[22:26]  * thumper wants to deploy django
[22:39] <lazyPower> thumper: have a MP for me to look at and speak to?
[22:56] <Egoist> why unit do not appear in relation-list even if relation-set was executed?
[22:56] <Egoist> because machine is busy handling some kind of hook?
[23:01] <marcoceppi> Egoist: the unit on the other end has to have successfully called relation-joined for that relation before the hook which you're calling relation-list in is executed
[23:02] <marcoceppi> Question about subordinates. If I add two subordinates to a service, and one calls open-port 80 and the other does a close-port 80 what happens?
[23:03] <marcoceppi> assuming open was called first and closed called next
[23:03] <marcoceppi> Does juju know not to close the port since it was opened by another charm?
[23:07] <marcoceppi> btw, ppetraki that relation-set thing was in the docs this whole time
[23:07] <marcoceppi> I went to update it and found it in there
[23:07] <marcoceppi> https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/authors-hook-environment.html#relation-get
[23:15] <marcoceppi> what is the app app-servers category entail?
[23:21] <jose> http://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/27cfhw/ibm_app_throwdown_canonicals_juju_selected_as_top/chzmn1y
[23:21] <jose> happy people is what Juju gets
[23:25] <Egoist> marcoceppi: Sorry but i don't get it
[23:25] <lazyPower> wooo!
[23:26] <lazyPower> marcoceppi: depending on which subordinate executes last, the yielding result will happen.
[23:26] <lazyPower> i dont think there's any kind of notion in juju of the open/close ports from one service locking it out to another.
[23:26] <marcoceppi> lame


[07:01] <dholbach> good morning
[07:26] <elfy> morning dpm
[07:26] <dpm> hi elfy
[08:19] <dholbach> dpm, looks like some spots in Europe have issues connecting to Canonical sites
[08:19] <dholbach> dpm, but I'm still here on Freenode
[08:20] <dpm> dholbach, ah, I was just about to ping you about it
[08:20] <dholbach> dpm, yeah, zyga, doko, ara and myself have issues - we're hanging out in #canonical-sysadmin
[08:21] <dholbach> dpm, all right, so I'm back to playing Angry Birds - let me know when connectivity's back
[08:22] <dpm> dholbach, all rightie, have fun ;)
[08:22] <dholbach> :-P
[11:33] <czajkowski> aloha
[11:37] <popey> yo
[11:37] <popey> hows tricks?
[11:39] <czajkowski> not bad thanks tipping away
[12:58] <dpm> popey, dholbach, do you remember who did the team Q&A last week? I think I'm up for today, but I don't know who else
[12:59] <dholbach> dpm, I think the 4 of us were taking care of the last two, so you're on your own
[12:59] <dholbach> dpm, http://arewefullyet.com/images/2012/12/nelson-haha.jpg
[12:59] <nigelb> heh
[12:59] <dholbach> :-)
[13:00] <dholbach> dpm, I don't know - maybe somebody put something in the doc where we noted things down? let me try to find it
[13:00] <popey> the doc is already done
[13:00] <popey> for this week and next
[13:04] <dpm> popey, just looked at it - awesome, thanks!
[13:51] <dholbach> popey, dpm, balloons, mhall119: how about a UGJ planning hangout Thu 14 UTC? it's a free spot in your calendars
[13:52] <popey> sure
[13:52] <dholbach> I'd announce it on the loco list too, so we can have it on ubuntuonair
[13:53] <dholbach> all rightie
[14:00] <dpm> dholbach, sounds good. I've got a call starting 30 mins after, but I can join for the start of the hangout
[14:00] <dholbach> rock
[14:00] <popey> dholbach: you setting up the UOA hangout for today?
[14:00] <popey> I'll pimp it about
[14:00] <dholbach> sure, can do
[14:03] <dholbach> popey, done
[14:03] <dholbach> editing ubuntuonair.com now
[14:04] <popey> kk
[14:05] <dholbach> done
[14:10] <mhall119> dholbach: works for me
[14:10] <dholbach> awesome
[14:10] <dholbach> sent the mail
[14:12] <popey> tweeted from @ubuntu
[14:13] <dholbach> RT'ed
[14:51]  * popey gets coffee
[14:51] <elfy> sounds reasonable
[14:51] <popey> dholbach: will and didrocks asked if they could go first, they have a meeting at :30, so we need to wrap up by then.
[14:51] <dholbach> sure sure
[14:52] <dholbach> posted on FB
[16:03] <mhall119> dholbach: I just realized that FOSSETCON overlaps Global Jam! \o/
[16:03] <dholbach> so that's one big jam already organised :-)
[16:04] <mhall119> yup, done and done
[16:04] <mhall119> it also means Florida gets to claim jose and pleia2 and being part of our team's jam :)
[16:04] <mhall119> and jcastro too, gain
[16:04] <mhall119> again
[16:05] <mhall119> jono: you're going to miss out on all the phone :-P
[16:06] <dholbach> haha, great :-D
[16:06] <dholbach> jono, yo yo
[16:07] <dholbach> jono, how's life over there?
[16:07]  * mhall119 just realized how funny "jono, yo yo" sounds if spoken out loud
[16:18] <dholbach> all rightie, calling it a day - see you all tomorrow! hugs!
[22:08] <bkerensa> pleia2: https://wiki.eth0.nl/index.php/LackRack
[22:08] <bkerensa> :D
[22:11] <pleia2> bkerensa: oh wow, that's clever (and I actually have a Lack in storage)
[22:15] <pleia2> it's pink, obviously


[00:17] <htmlgifted> Hello Looking for a Answer to A bluetooth problem with xubuntu 12.04.... SylvaniaBT device... connected and paired and can control Audicious ... For the next track and previous track fine but doesn't send audio to device.... ? Any ideas?
[00:18] <ElderDryas> Try #xubuntu - the support  channel for Xubuntu.
[00:19] <ElderDryas> You're bound to get an answer quicker there
[00:20] <htmlgifted> see i was told here would be good.
[00:22] <htmlgifted> will try ther and see thanks..
[03:14] <skellat> jjfrv8: Congratulations on becoming documentation lead, boss.
[14:59] <skellat> knome: I'm going to have to miss the meeting as I'm being called away to do tech support for family a village or two east from here
[14:59] <knome> skellat, no problem. have fun
[14:59] <lderan> safe journey skellat
[15:02] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[15:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep 12 15:02:31 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:02] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:03] <knome> so who's here for the meeting?
[15:03] <lderan> me
[15:03] <jjfrv8> o/
[15:03] <micahg-work> o/
[15:03] <knome> #topic Items carried on
[15:03] <knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting
[15:03] <knome> #action     knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
[15:03] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to prepare the website for the desktop of the week
[15:03] <knome> #action     mr_pouit uploads the new artwork package later
[15:03] <meetingology> ACTION: mr_pouit uploads the new artwork package later
[15:04] <knome> #nick mr_pouit
[15:04] <knome> #action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
[15:04] <meetingology> ACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
[15:04] <knome> #nick skellat
[15:04] <knome> #subtopic Strategy Document reviewing
[15:04] <pleia2> o/
[15:04] <knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2013-August/009312.html
[15:05] <knome> jack sent me some grammar and clarity fixes
[15:05] <micahg-work> hrm, sorry, I forgot to review that
[15:05] <knome> but the content itself hasn't changed since last meeting
[15:05] <pleia2> I still need to review as well
[15:05] <knome> okay, let's postpone until next meeting.
[15:05] <knome> #subtopic Ideas for using the project money
[15:06] <micahg-work> more swag
[15:06] <ochosi> #idea live-usb sticks with xubuntu on it (either as a give-away, or even for some very cheap price that's about what the usb stick would cost)
[15:07] <knome> this is somewhat irrelevant, but there was an idea that unixstickers.com could "hold" our free material, and contributors who have talks in events could "order" those when needed with special code or sth
[15:07] <ochosi> also sounds nice
[15:07] <lderan> usb sticks would be cool
[15:07] <lderan> aye
[15:07] <micahg-work> ooh, ochosi's idea is good, no profit...
[15:07] <knome> what micahg-work and ochosi are proposing sound like new marketing projects we should undertake, not exactly "using the money"
[15:08] <micahg-work> well, the money is seed money for the marketing project :)
[15:08] <micahg-work> but it's self-renewing
[15:08] <knome> basically we would like to just set up the swag for our users to order them
[15:08] <ochosi> knome: well the money would be needed for starting it up
[15:08] <pleia2> #idea order some trial tshirts from international vendors
[15:08] <ochosi> micahg-work: +1
[15:08] <knome> not really, if vendors are doing that, like unixstickers.com
[15:08] <knome> pleia2, +1 for that
[15:08] <knome> the situation with t-shirts is that we still haven't found a good vendor
[15:09] <knome> ubuntu studio used spreadshirt.net
[15:09] <knome> or uses
[15:09] <micahg-work> can we use the one that Studio is using?
[15:09] <knome> pleia2, did you get to order something from them yet?
[15:09] <ochosi> who would the tshirts be for?
[15:09] <knome> micahg-work, practically we can use anything, we aren't just sure if price/quality is par with our expectations
[15:09] <knome> ochosi, contributors
[15:09] <knome> ochosi, but the main idea would be to check the quality
[15:09] <ochosi> as in: ourselves? :)
[15:10] <knome> pleia2 has been ordering shirts with her own money for now
[15:10] <knome> yep, us
[15:10] <knome> xubuntu-team
[15:10] <micahg-work> knome, we could do t-shirts for -team members at cost to again keep the money from depleting...
[15:10] <knome> another requirement in addition to quality is reasonable shipping prices
[15:11] <knome> micahg-work, not sure i follow.
[15:11] <micahg-work> or reuse it for multiple ventures
[15:11] <knome> i'm not saying we should just dump it all to something
[15:11] <micahg-work> AIUI, we're only prohibited from profiting, that doesn't mean that we can't use it as seed money over and over again
[15:11] <ochosi> knome: remind me, how much is it again?
[15:11] <knome> usb sticks are nice, and sure, we need to do a trial order even if we use a vendor
[15:12] <knome> we have about 250 euros
[15:12] <ochosi> hm, nice
[15:12] <pleia2> I've only used zazzle so far
[15:12] <pleia2> also, if we do find a marketing thing we like, there is still the flavors pool of money we can make requests against: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/06/20/ubuntu-donations-and-community-funding/
[15:12] <smartboyhw> Speaking of T-shirts: You can only purchase it from USA, Canada, Europe or Japan if you use Spreadshirt
[15:13] <smartboyhw> Which is why I have to via xequenc to get one
[15:13] <smartboyhw> So, not a good idea for you guys.
[15:13] <pleia2> smartboyhw: thanks, good to know
[15:13] <smartboyhw> (to use Spreadshirt)
[15:13] <knome> yes, that was one of the problems with spreadshirt
[15:14] <knome> micahg-work, sure, but "seed money" for me sounds like "new marketing projects"
[15:14] <micahg-work> and?
[15:14] <knome> because ultimately, we don't want to run the merch business ourself
[15:14] <knome> we just want to set up xubuntu-branded merch on other vendors
[15:14] <GridCube> \o
[15:15] <micahg-work> it becomes more of an endowment rather than a gift to spend
[15:15] <knome> micahg-work, i don't think we should user 250 euros to usb sticks to sell them away
[15:15] <knome> micahg-work, i think we should rather work with a vendor to get it right (tm) and allow people to order from the vendor directly
[15:16] <micahg-work> knome, sure, that works too
[15:16] <lderan> aye that makes sense to me
[15:16] <knome> so if we want usb sticks... sure, but we don't need to use a lot of money to create them
[15:16] <micahg-work> but doesn't that usually require some initial investment to "get it right"
[15:16] <pleia2> yeah
[15:16] <knome> unless the vendor is willing to work with us on it
[15:16] <knome> but sure
[15:16] <pleia2> order from a couple places to check on quality
[15:17] <knome> but there's no way getting the initial investment back
[15:17] <knome> if we spend it, we spend it
[15:17] <knome> if something is not right and even if we used 15 euros for it, i don't want to sell that to our users
[15:17] <knome> because it isn't right
[15:17] <pleia2> yeah, we'll just keep them ourselves
[15:17] <knome> that's why i'm +1'ing ordering t-shirts
[15:18] <knome> we've run that project already, and we need some more of that initial investment
[15:18] <ochosi> we can always give stuff that isn't right for free
[15:18]  * lderan will accept reject xubuntu usb sticks / t-shirts
[15:18] <knome> ochosi, sure, but money-wise, that's the same as keeping it
[15:18] <pleia2> we have to start somewhere
[15:18] <ochosi> pleia2: +1
[15:18] <knome> i would be +1 for the t-shirts
[15:19] <knome> that's possible the best merch
[15:19] <pleia2> let's start there then
[15:19] <knome> people need clothes, they want to promote xubuntu
[15:19] <GridCube> i wonder if there would ever be a new USD thats not virtual, if thats the case i would vote to keep the money to help whoever goes to one of those
[15:19] <knome> -> they order a t-shirt
[15:19] <knome> GridCube, 250 euros isn't too much to spend on that
[15:19] <GridCube> no, sure, but it would help
[15:19] <knome> GridCube, say it's in the states, and i needed to travel there
[15:19] <ochosi> how much money would be needed for t-shirts that go from a vendor anyway?
[15:19] <knome> GridCube, the flights would be something multiple times that money already
[15:20] <pleia2> ochosi: custom shirt + shipping is around $30
[15:20] <GridCube> sure, but it will help
[15:20] <pleia2> (less once you get to bulk)
[15:20] <ochosi> right, but how much would it cost for us to set it up?
[15:20] <GridCube> in any case i dont think theres any usd thats in real person soon, or ever
[15:20] <knome> GridCube, i think it's more sensible to use that money to various different things, if that helps us getting the t-shirts to a shippable state etc.
[15:20] <GridCube> i understand
[15:20] <ochosi> how many t-shirts would we order in order to test that the merch is "good" ?
[15:21] <knome> ochosi, one, if the quality is good
[15:21] <knome> ochosi, so far, there have been clear defects
[15:21] <knome> so we won't order again from the same vendor because there is a risk one of our users get a defect shirt as well
[15:22] <knome> so the answer is: we don't know
[15:22] <ochosi> sounds like an investment into t-shirt market-research
[15:22] <pleia2> so we should decide upon a style of shirt to order, then pick a few vendors to order some from
[15:22] <knome> until somebody does it right.
[15:22] <micahg-work> can we find the vendor Canonical uses for their shirts?
[15:22] <pleia2> logo on black is really hard to do right, so I'm inclined to go with a white or blue shirt as the base
[15:22] <knome> don't know how black/blue would be much different
[15:22] <pleia2> light blue ;)
[15:22] <knome> it's easy to get it right if you want to get it right
[15:23] <knome> the problem with online vendors is that they are doing it cheap
[15:23] <knome> that's why it can be wrong time to time
[15:23] <lderan> aye that they can be
[15:23] <ochosi> i agree with micahg-work, let's just use canonical's vendor
[15:23] <pleia2> yeah, not much color balancing for a dark background, so the logo ends up looking even darker
[15:24] <micahg-work> ochosi, Canonical probably orders several thousand, so it might not be possible, but at least worth looking into
[15:24] <pleia2> ochosi: afaik you need to have a bulk agreement with them
[15:25] <knome> this discussion leads me thinking we should just do a white t-shirt first
[15:25] <knome> most vendors are supposed to get that right
[15:25] <knome> so basically:
[15:25] <knome> find a vendor with reasonable (shipping) prices and good coverage on shipping destinations
[15:25] <knome> then order one t-shirt
[15:25] <knome> and if it's good, make it official
[15:25] <knome> then look into other colors.
[15:25] <knome> maybe.
[15:25] <pleia2> yep
[15:26] <knome> that way we'll use about $30
[15:26] <knome> investigting and googling is free of charge
[15:26] <knome> (for now)
[15:26] <GridCube> i've never bought any, but i've heard that topatoco products are rather nice
[15:27] <knome> #action knome to see designing a white-bg t-shirt
[15:27] <meetingology> ACTION: knome to see designing a white-bg t-shirt
[15:27] <ochosi> sorry folks, i gotta run
[15:27] <pleia2> and anyone with vendor ideas, please add to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/Projects#T-shirts
[15:27] <GridCube> :) bye
[15:27] <lderan> by ochosi
[15:27] <ochosi> i'll be back a bit after the meeting, i'll read the backlog and reply later
[15:28] <lderan> bye*
[15:28] <knome> anything else on the topic?
[15:28] <knome> i'd encourage people to discuss this on the mailing list
[15:28] <smartboyhw> You guys have a contract with canonical right?
[15:29] <knome> feels a waste of time to meet every 2 weeks on a meeting and babble 30 mins about merch ;)
[15:29] <knome> smartboyhw, what contract would you be referring to?
[15:29] <smartboyhw> knome, I remembered that ttoine (our person who made the shop happen) spent 2 months working out a deal between Canonical and Spreadsheet or something
[15:29] <smartboyhw> Best to ask him, but the legalese must be sorted out
[15:30] <knome> we've asked canonical if it's okay to do this on the legal sense.
[15:30] <pleia2> we're not making profit on this, it's all promotional material so within our trademark rights (we asked)
[15:31] <knome> anyway,
[15:31] <knome> #topic Team updates
[15:31] <knome> anything? (please #info and #action, and do it quickly :P)
[15:32] <micahg-work> #info Xubuntu restricted extras to not carry chromium codecs (Ubuntu just added it to theirs)
[15:32] <knome> cool
[15:32] <knome> (or that's how you perceive it, but i think it's cool)
[15:32] <jjfrv8> #info review of saucy docs is about 80% complete.
[15:32] <GridCube> #info the desktop of the week team has been in touch with some desktop screenshotters for the licenses that where missing, we are starting to get some responses but not so fast as we would wish
[15:32] <micahg-work> #action micahg to review ochosi's gmb patch
[15:32] <meetingology> ACTION: micahg to review ochosi's gmb patch
[15:33] <knome> micahg-work, when's the last date you can upload new stuff before going away?
[15:33] <knome> we need an upload for the artwork package when the new wallpaper is ready
[15:34] <knome> (trivial, but needs to be done)
[15:34] <knome> would wednesday 18 work for you?
[15:34] <micahg-work> having it by this weekend would be nice, I think the beta freeze might be moving, so next weekend might be viable as well
[15:34] <micahg-work> no, if it's quick I can do it night of the 17th
[15:34] <knome> i'll see if i can get it done by weekend
[15:35] <knome> #topic Announcements
[15:35] <micahg-work> #info micahg unavailable Sep 19-21 and 26-28
[15:35] <knome> #info Jack Fromm (jjrfv8) is the new Xubuntu Documentation lead. Congratulations!
[15:35] <lderan> \o/
[15:35] <pleia2> \o/
[15:35] <micahg-work> congrats!
[15:36]  * jjfrv8 blushes
[15:36] <smartboyhw> \o/
[15:36] <GridCube> \o/
[15:36] <GridCube> :D
[15:38] <knome> #topic New and emerging items
[15:39] <knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
[15:39] <knome> do we want a meeting next week? (UIF, B2F, DocF)
[15:40] <jjfrv8> i might have a problem making next thursday
[15:40] <micahg-work> might be good to nail down issues that need to be fixed before beta 2
[15:40]  * micahg-work won't be around either though
[15:40] <knome> micahg-work, yeah, though that's the b2 freeze day.
[15:40]  * pleia2 out of town too
[15:40] <knome> would wednesday or tuesday be more suitable?
[15:41] <jjfrv8> either for me
[15:41] <knome> that'd leave us some actual time to fix the issues before the freeze
[15:41] <knome> and not a meeting with lots of "we're too late"
[15:41] <micahg-work> tuesday would be better as I won't be able to do much Wed
[15:42] <knome> everybody else fineish with tue?
[15:42] <pleia2> I'm gone all week, but you don't need me for b2 stuff :)
[15:42] <knome> nope, only the release announcement stuff you'll prepare this week
[15:42]  * knome hides
[15:42] <pleia2> lol
[15:42] <knome> no, we're fin
[15:42] <knome> e
[15:42] <lderan> i'll be able to do tuesday :P
[15:42] <knome> #info Next Xubuntu community meeting: Tuesday, September 17 at 15UTC
[15:43] <knome> #endmeeting
[15:43] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Sep 12 15:43:00 2013 UTC.
[15:43] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-09-12-15.02.moin.txt
[15:43] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-09-12-15.02.html
[15:43] <knome> thanks!
[15:43] <knome> i'll put up the meeting minutes up later today
[15:43] <pleia2> thanks knome
[15:43] <knome> np
[15:43] <knome> somebody else could chair the meeting next time ;)
[15:43] <knome> anyway, bbl
[15:44] <lderan> i would not do a good job, since im at work and dont have much to contribute
[16:50] <elfy> re meeting next week - I'll miss that again
[17:39] <knome> elfy, d'oh :)
[17:47] <elfy> I keep having to do stuff like work :(
[17:51] <knome> i know, that kind of stuff sucks
[17:51] <elfy> I'll try and get #info together for it
[17:52] <knome> okay
[17:52] <knome> or just send to email list
[17:52] <knome> currently, we're not using the team reports the way we should, so it doesn't matter
[17:53] <knome> it's just for internal communication to know what's going on
[17:58] <elfy> yep
[17:58] <elfy> I'll do that probably
[17:59] <elfy> generally it's all looking fairly good/same as - packages is good - iso's are the same as normal - get done if I call for testing
[18:07] <knome> yep