[01:40] <LjL> gnomefreak Amaranth nalioth, around?
[01:40] <nalioth> square
[01:41] <Pici> hehe
[01:41] <Seeker`> triangle?
[01:45] <LjL> nalioth: well the others will see later, hopefully. amaranth has a valid point i think: will the traffic created by redirecting upgrade questions to #ubuntu+1 overwhelm the traffic that is saved by it? i'm not sure i can answer, and this is a concern.
[01:45] <LjL> the other point is, the users will be confused and not know where to go. is it that much more confusing than, say, effects in -effects? "if it's something that happened while trying to upgrade, or if you just want to know how to upgrade, it's #ubuntu+1"
[01:45] <nalioth> for every upgrader, they'll have to be told where to go, and possible helped there
[01:46] <nalioth> er, possibly helped in #ubuntu to get to #ubuntu+1
[01:46] <nalioth> we are not dealing with internet (or computer) savvy people
[01:46] <Seeker`> is there a limit to the number of peope in a channel?
[01:46] <nalioth> we need to keep the 'new stuff' to a minimum
[01:46] <LjL> nalioth: yes, that is true, but it's one message ("join #ubuntu+1 please") compared to, in many cases, a long exchange
[01:46] <nalioth> they auto join #ubuntu and expect help there, not to be told to do something they may have never heard of
[01:47] <Seeker`> and would it be sensible to have a #ubuntu-upgrading instead
[01:47] <nalioth> LjL: but what if they don't know how to /j #ubuntu+1 ?
[01:47] <LjL> Seeker`: that's exactly what i'm proposing to use #ubuntu+1 for
[01:47] <LjL> nalioth: you tell them: type /join #ubuntu+1. as we already do with a good 50% of them
[01:47] <Seeker`> LjL: I was thiking that the rename may make it simpler
[01:47] <PriceChild> I'd assume people that have been using feisty and want to upgrade to gutsy are relatively computer savvy.
[01:47] <LjL> Seeker`: i doubt that's really the issue
[01:48] <Seeker`> what is the issue then?
[01:48] <LjL> PriceChild: you assume a lot. they have a point here. but... i still think it would lighten the traffic in #ubuntu by a perceivable amount. and it's just a matter of telling users where to go - maybe they don't know, but once you tell them, it's not rocket sience
[01:49] <LjL> Seeker`: the issue is fear that a split would confuse the users, and that we'd waste more characters in telling them to join the right channel rather than just helping them in #ubuntu
[01:49] <PriceChild> If people have problems upgrading... its 9 times out of 10 going to require more than a one line solution.
[01:49] <PriceChild> I'm pretty sure they'd relish the chance of a quieter channel
[01:50] <LjL> nalioth: anyway the problem is this. do you remember last release? i assume so. face it, the channel was unusable for everyone for a while. unusable. so, maybe my idea isn't the best possible, but what else?
[01:50] <Seeker`> LjL: The reason I suggested a rename is because it is relatively obvious what -upgrading would be for, whereas +1 is less so
[01:50] <LjL> Seeker`, people wouldn't *look* for the right channel anyway, you'd always have to *tell* them. so what difference does the name make?
[01:51] <LjL> Seeker`: "type /join ubuntu+1 for help with upgrading". "type /join #ubuntu-upgrading for help with upgrading".
[01:51] <Seeker`> LjL: fair enough
[01:51] <LjL> Seeker`: the issue here is whether to make the split or not make it, the channel name doesn't really much matter. we already have #ubuntu+1, people using gutsy are already there, so it's handy
[01:52] <LjL> Seeker`: and it also solves the problem of everyone in +1 moaning that the channel gets closed (they always do)
[01:52] <Seeker`> LjL: in that case, I reckon a split is a good idea
[01:53] <LjL> i'm not proposing to make it longer than say a week
[01:53] <LjL> but somehow we need to keep #ubuntu manageable. or we may as well set +i and avoid giving users the *illusion* that they may get some support
[01:53] <Seeker`> !modes
[01:53] <ubotu> There are many different channel and user modes on Freenode (see !freenode). Here's a list: http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
[01:54] <LjL> now, maybe nobody will care about Gutsy like they did about Feisty, and the channel won't have a spike at all :)
[01:54] <LjL> but i'm assuming it will.
[01:54] <Seeker`> Its better to plan and it not explode, than have a huge spike and be unprepared
[01:55] <LjL> that's what i'm trying to do, and while i do realize that splitting and using +1 for upgrades isn't optimal, i just can't think of another sane way to handle it
[01:55] <Seeker`> I ask periodically in +1, but never get a response
[01:56] <LjL> Seeker`: you'll never get suspend to ram working, get on with life.
[01:56] <Seeker`> LjL: well, it works to an extent, but when it resumes it logs me off
[01:56] <LjL> Seeker`: then consider yourself lucky.
[01:56] <Seeker`> LjL: Unless there is something I dont know about IRC channels, splitting is the only sensible way of keeping the number of users manageable
[01:57] <LjL> Seeker`: it does also have serious drawbacks
[01:57] <nalioth> if we're gonna split it, don't split it into #ubuntu+1
[01:57] <LjL> when a permanent split of #ubuntu was proposed, i opposed it completely.
[01:57] <LjL> nalioth: then what?
[01:57] <Seeker`> but do the drawbacks outweigh > 1600 people trying to ask questions at the same time?
[01:58] <nalioth> #ubuntu-upgrading or w/e
[01:58] <LjL> Seeker`: that's what i'm thinking. for the next couple of weeks, i think not
[01:58] <nalioth>  #ubuntu+1 needs to stay for 'the next version'
[01:58] <LjL> nalioth: uh again, but what difference does it make? i mean, since it doesn't make any difference, it's ok with me but...
[01:58] <nalioth> i'd prefer to just use #ubuntu
[01:59] <nalioth> you guys are the one talking of splitting and such
[01:59] <LjL> nalioth: we don't *have* to split. i've proposed it. there have been at least three negative reactions to that, on the ML.
[02:00] <LjL> nalioth: taking those into account, i'd retract my proposal. but i'm still concerned about the non-manageability of #ubuntu... so i'd like to either convince you that splitting is a good idea, or find a better idea
[02:00] <LjL> if i fail to do both, then #ubuntu it is
[02:01] <LjL> but for heaven's sake i don't want to even hear anyone saying "#ubuntu is too much of a mess, we need to create many separate channels! #ubuntu-networking! #ubuntu-video! load balance, #ubuntu1 #ubuntu2 #ubuntu3!"
[02:02] <bbrazil> don't forget DR instances on other networks to be safe :)
[02:02] <LjL> i.e. if if people start pushing for a *permanent* splitting in order to avoid a *temporary* one, then i'll strangle them.
[02:03] <nalioth> LjL: no, any splits would be temporary.  Closing #ubuntu-upgrading at the same time #ubuntu+1 reopened perhaps
[02:04] <LjL> nalioth: ok i still don't see why just using #ubuntu+1 wouldn't cut it... there's already people in there who are already using gutsy and who always dislike having to leave the channel... i think using #ubuntu+1 rather than something else would solve *one more* problem
[02:04] <LjL> but who cares, if you prefer to have #ubuntu-upgrading, then fine, but the issue is that you don't prefer either thing
[02:05] <LjL> (neither do gnomefreak and amaranth so if i have to take that as a sample, i'd have to say nobody likes the idea)
[02:08] <rob> I haven't read everything above, but I think we should forward #ubuntu+1 to #ubuntu on release day and deal with it
[02:09] <rob> no need for a permanent split imo :)
[02:09] <Seeker`> rob: I think everyone is against a permanent split
[02:10] <nalioth> you see, if you start sending folks to +1 for upgrading, they'll continue to go there after it switches over to hardy beta talk
[02:10] <rob> we will get a lot of questions obviously which will mean we will have to keep on our toes. +m may need to be used occasionally and if we have too we could have a temp overflow to #ubuntu+1
[02:11] <Seeker`> hmm, maybe there should be an irc entrance exam - that way people will read topics etc, and this would be much less of a problem :P
[02:11] <rob> or a new channel, like #ubuntu-2 :) whatever..
[02:11] <rob> how long have we got to go until the release?
[02:11] <mc44> day and a bit
[02:11] <nalioth> rob: 18th is the day
[02:12] <rob> so ~ 30 hrs
[02:12] <rob> roughly
[02:12] <mc44> more like 36 ish :)
[02:12] <Seeker`> rob: I'd say more like 36
[02:12] <mc44> usually about midday utc
[02:12] <Seeker`> mc44: have there been enough releases for a "usually"?
 in #ubuntu-offtopic is about to earn a ban I think...
[02:13] <rob> that means about 8pm my time tomorrow
[02:13] <rob> I will be here :)
[02:13] <Seeker`> rob: East coast USA?
[02:14] <rob> Seeker`, no, Australia
[02:14] <LjL> rob, read the mailing list rather than reading everything above
[02:14] <rob> I'm +10, so midday utc = 8pm my time
[02:14] <PriceChild> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3546058#post3546058
[02:14] <Seeker`> erm
[02:14] <Seeker`> 12 + 10 != 20
[02:15] <rob> hmm I didn't get a mailing list
[02:15] <rob> err mail on the mailing list, actually I don't think I am subscribed yet
[02:15] <Vorian> woah PriceChild!
[02:15] <LjL> rob: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2007-October/thread.html
[02:15] <Vorian> that's crazy
[02:15] <rob> Seeker`, 10am my time is midnight utc. +10 hours on that makes it 8pm
[02:16] <mc44> PriceChild: wait Carmony resigned?
[02:16] <mc44> Clearly I don't read enough /,
[02:16] <Seeker`> PriceChild: Looks like that topic may require a bit of moderation
[02:16] <PriceChild> only read the first post
[02:17] <Seeker`> rob: midnight utc + 10 hours = 10am utc
[02:17] <rob> 8pm my time.
[02:18] <rob> = 10am utc
[02:18] <mneptok> rob: i thought you were in the US?
[02:18] <rob> mneptok, nope, Aussie born and bred
[02:18] <rob> Seeker`, trust me, I convert timezones for a job :)
[02:19] <Seeker`> rob: its this comment that got me: rob+: I'm +10, so midday utc = 8pm my time
[02:22] <rob> utc 0001 = 10am my time. Midday utc (10am + 12hours) = 10pm my time. I was wrong by two hours, but yes, close enough :)
[02:23] <mneptok> +12 hours?
[02:23] <rob> 12 hours from midnight is midday
[02:23] <Seeker`> mneptok: midnight + 12 hours is midday, so 10am + 12 hours is 10pm
[02:23] <mneptok> he is +10
[02:24] <rob> my timezone is +10, so midnight + 10 hours is when utc midnight falls my time
[02:24] <mneptok> if it's 12 noon UTC, it's 10pm in eastern .au
[02:24] <Seeker`> mneptok: thats what we just worked out :)
[02:24] <rob> ypu
[02:24] <rob> err yup
[02:24] <mneptok> +10. just add ten hours. this isn't rocket science. :)
[02:25] <rob> heh
[02:25] <Seeker`> mneptok: you'd think so, wouldn't you :P However, it being 1:30am, and me having had 2 bottles of cider, it gets quite a bit more difficult
[02:25] <Seeker`> for me anyway
[02:25] <mneptok> this is where rob tells us he's in Perth and we kill him
[02:25] <rob> dam it I want to play ETQW but after going though synaptic I have an hour of downloading to go..
[02:26] <rob> mneptok, heck no, Brisbane :)
[02:26] <rob> I went down to Surfers the other day, bloody mayhem and the racing hasn't even started. Got to look at some sweet indy cars close up though.
[02:27] <mneptok> damned right. you stay in that +10 Syd/Melb/Bris/Canb tz
[02:29] <Seeker`> how many ops are from GB?
[02:29] <PriceChild> seciboi4u pm'd me earlier, asking asl and everything
[02:30] <Seeker`> PriceChild: oooh, someone likes you ;)
[02:30] <PriceChild> Seeker`, me, davi, me.z, pop.ey, i think
[02:30] <rob> wow, a little bit of overkill maybe LjL for release..
[02:30] <PriceChild> he's in -offtopic
[02:30] <Seeker`> PriceChild: how many that aren't just -uk ops?
[02:30] <LjL> rob, do you not remember the days after feisty or edgy release?
[02:31] <PriceChild> Seeker`, me and me.z i assume
[02:31] <Seeker`> PriceChild: cool
[02:31] <rob> LjL, did you see what happen on I think efnet during 911? That was mayhem :)
[02:31] <PriceChild> Seeker`, probably missing one or two... st.din i think
[02:31] <LjL> rob: this is not efnet... and #ubuntu is a support channel. i'd like to be able to keep giving real support
[02:31] <LjL> rob: and i was on ircnet during 911 :)
[02:32] <LjL> i remember that the server i was connected to went down, since it was right in the wtc, but i could connect from another server, although i had more than 5 minutes of lags
[02:34] <LjL> rob: and aside from the +1 split, there's nothing i think particularly huge that i say in that mail. we've had +J during "normal" times before, kick-as-warning is something we've often encouraged...
[02:34] <LjL> sure, splitting is big, but then again having 2000 users of which 500 speaking in a channel is "big" too
[02:35] <rob> LjL, just saying.. My take on it is that a second channel should be set up and once it gets to hectic we should forward people to it, splitting the channel up some but only temporarily until it dies down a bit. The channel should not be #ubuntu+1 or any existing channel, just a channel we can easily set up and forward once the release is over back to #ubuntu. In addition to that join throttling will be needed and I will personally be running a script to
[02:35] <rob>  watch out for common things like dcc sends and taking action against them pretty quickly (I will be personally monitoring it the whole time), Yes +J is needed just like it is needed at all times.
[02:35] <Seeker`> rob: sounds sensible
[02:36] <PriceChild> rob, we tried +J a while ago but it fails badly in server deaths iirc
[02:36] <rob> the #ubuntu+1 channel should be forwarded back to #ubuntu until hardy has people using it
[02:36] <LjL> rob, i fear that "until it dies down a bit" means without interruption for a week at least. but ok, the concept is sound.
[02:36] <PriceChild> which is why we didn't use it much after
[02:37] <rob> my suggestion about +J and also flooding, maybe consider running debian's bot, it handles both pretty well
[02:37] <Seeker`> are we actually at risk of hitting a server limit, or is it just making the channel unusable due to the sheer number of msgs?
[02:37] <PriceChild> Seeker`, the latter
[02:37] <LjL> rob: nalioth said that to me too. i don't know, i'm not familiar with it, honestly i thought +J, being a freenode-wide solution, would tend to be a better solution. but as long as it works
[02:37] <rob> not going to hit a server limit, the latter
[02:38] <rob> LjL, the Debian bot dynamically sets +J as needed
[02:38] <LjL> rob: define "as needed"
[02:38] <LjL> doesn't it set +l?
[02:38] <rob> also, something to kick/remove pasters would be nice too
[02:38] <LjL> (or whatever it is that limits the total number of users)
[02:38] <LjL> rob, heh, that's an old one :)
[02:39] <rob> LjL, +J to iirc
[02:39] <LjL> we never did that for one reason or another
[02:39] <rob> I think last time I was manually messing with +J a bit
[02:39] <LjL> rob: i'm not sure how it would know when to set +J... i mean, how can you know until the bots come?
[02:40] <rob> LjL, it is hard to second guess bots, don't rely on +J alone
[02:40] <PriceChild> I always thought we never liked the idea of "bots with ops"?
[02:40] <nalioth> rob: the debian bot doesn't do +J, it does +L
[02:40] <rob> nalioth, ah ok
[02:40] <nalioth> er, whatever 'channel user limit" is
[02:40] <LjL> PriceChild: that's one point. the other point is that stuff like that needs to be tested. sure, it's tested in #debian, but do we have the time to take it and deploy it in a safe manner?
[02:40] <nalioth> rob: it keeps it 10 or 20 above the current user base
[02:40] <Seeker`> i thought +J was meant to be there to stop floods happening - isn't setting +J reactively is effectively just closing the channel when it hits the limit (ie doing +J semi-manually)
[02:41] <rob> however +J and +L are unlikely to give you proper decent protection against most botnets anyway
[02:41] <LjL> rob, +J worked nicely when we used it... except for the server death problem
[02:41] <nalioth> +L will stop a 10+ clone swarm join attack
[02:41] <LjL> rob: having 5 bots join is something *very* different from having 50 bots join
[02:41] <LjL> for starters, 5 bots can't cause people to excess flood
[02:41] <LjL> 50 can
[02:41] <LjL> and do
[02:42] <rob> well, personally if I were running a bot net I'd have them join a few at a time anyway then launch the attack :)
[02:42] <LjL> rob: they did that once, yes
[02:42] <rob> I even wrote a script that would do it like that in a moment of boredom
[02:42] <LjL> or twice
[02:42] <LjL>  /kb rob
[02:42] <rob> heh
[02:42] <nalioth> rob: but neither +J or +L will stop the slow join attacks
[02:42] <Seeker`> you're giving them ideas now
[02:43] <rob> nalioth, my point exactly
[02:43] <Seeker`> nalioth: will anything stop slow join attacks?
[02:43] <nalioth> Seeker`: not much
[02:43] <LjL> rob: but - although i've never been attentive enough to spot it myself - other ops *have* been able to see that there were "too many users" and set +R in advance
[02:43] <rob> thus +JL does not give you all that great of protection, you might just slow them down
[02:43] <nalioth> the point of +J or +L is to stop the kiddies who use the mass-clone-swarm-join attack
[02:43] <rob> yup
[02:43] <Seeker`> hmm - do bot nets generally send the same message at the same time?
[02:43] <LjL> often.
[02:44] <rob> so just set +J manually as needed, it shouldn't have to be altered all that often
[02:44] <Seeker`> hmm, you could implement a script to watch for multiple users saying the same thing within x seconds, if the number of users is > x, kick them
[02:45] <rob> as for +L, it could be used on a temporary basis if a sustained attack happens
[02:45] <LjL> Seeker`: we could implement many things, but 1) we don't have time 2) there are countless arguments against doing that sort of thing
[02:46] <LjL> we've gone over and over such arguments many times, it's pointless to bring them up now - we just don't have the time either way
[02:46] <rob> Seeker`, its called a flood protection script, I had an idea that would expand on that which would do if ANY user repeats the same text more then x times in x seconds, kick everyone who says the same line of text thereafter
[02:47] <rob> because, often botnets flood the same line over and over again :)
[02:47] <Seeker`> rob: I thought that most scripts only caught user a repeating line b, not multiple users and the smae line
[02:47] <Pici> Theres some flood detection stuff built into irssi, but nothing hooks into the events by default.
[02:47] <LjL> Daviey, botnets usually come from several IPs. but yes, that's a clone detection script.
[02:47] <rob> Seeker`, exactly, my script is better :)
[02:48] <LjL> but really now... talking about "smart" scripts is pointless, they have their merits, but we just can't implement any for release time, not to mention *agreeing* on using them
[02:48] <rob> Seeker`, oh and for a slightly different purpose
[02:48] <Seeker`> i'll probably get shot down for suggesting this, as its obvious, but would some sort of planning session further in advance of hardy be a good idea?
[02:49] <rob> LjL, of cause, but that doesn't mean one can't discuss them at all
[02:49] <rob> Seeker`, I think that's what people are trying to do but it is hard to get everyone together when we are all over the world
[02:50] <Seeker`> rob: agreed-  I meant more than 24 hours in advance of launch though
[02:50] <rob> oh, LjL, and I already have some of these scripts that I mention
[02:50] <Daviey> rob: and thats why regular irc council meetings and ML discussions should be conducted :D
[02:50] <LjL> rob: no, i'd just like that everyone kept in mind that we have to deal with an immediate spike of users in #ubuntu, though, rather than devising new/old ways to detect clones and bots
[02:51] <LjL> rob, using them won't get approved. i could approve it, i don't know, i'd have to know what they do exactly and how, but i assure you that, aside from me, they wouldn't get approved in time. perhaps after a(nother) *long* discussion about it.
[02:51] <rob> LjL, sure, but +J and +L are not going to prevent attacks, only potentially take some steam out of the dumber ones
[02:52] <Seeker`> rob: but you cant prevent attacks, only react
[02:52] <rob> yup
[02:52] <Seeker`> and whatever system is implemented will have holes
[02:52] <LjL> rob, +J has been *very* effective, seriously. it just has problems. sure, bots could join slowly, but most of them don't -- and if they do, you have a chance of spotting them before they start flooding, anyway
[02:53] <rob> my thought is +J is going to have to be set slightly higher then normal just due to the normal traffic we are going to have to contend with anyway, so +J starts getting less useful when you do that
[02:54] <Seeker`> J controls join rate, not total?
[02:55] <LjL> rob, as long as you can keep the number of bots that can join at a time below 10, i think it's still quite useful. how many CTCP VERSIONs does it take to flood out the average xchat user?
[02:55] <LjL> Seeker`: the former.
[02:56] <Seeker`> so what is the highest number of users you would want to join in, say, 10 seconds?
[02:57] <Seeker`> or am I looking at it too simplistically?
[02:57] <nalioth> For tips and information on channel and user modes and management, see http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml Seeker`
[02:58] <Seeker`> nalioth: Just read that, but I didn't know if there was a reason why someone couldn't just say roughly x users in y seconds
[02:58] <nalioth> Seeker`: that is how +J works
[02:59] <nalioth>   /mode #channel +J 2,10
[02:59] <nalioth> or whatever
[02:59] <Seeker`> nalioth: yeah, but why hasn't someone suggested a figure like that?
[02:59] <nalioth> Seeker`: it has been used before and is being discussed now
[03:00] <LjL> Seeker`: because it depends on the channel.
[03:00] <LjL> i have suggested 2,5
[03:00] <LjL> but i don't really know
[03:00] <LjL> it worked well last time, but last time wasn't release time
[03:00] <Seeker`> i cant imagine you will get a huge rush of people joining, even if it is release
[03:00] <Seeker`> last release seemed to be a fairly gradual curve up to 1600
[03:01] <LjL> Seeker`: i'm sorry i can't dig up the stats of the feisty release for you, as my logs are a mess, but i do beg to differ
[03:01] <LjL> fairly gradual like in 6 hours, yeah
[03:01] <LjL> and then it kept steady for quite a while
[03:01] <rob> guys, take a look at http://stoffers.id.au/dancer/
[03:01] <rob> mainly the channel mode section :)
[03:02] <Seeker`> yeah, but what I mean is that is wasn't like at midday, 300 people joined
[03:02] <Seeker`> so something like ~5 users in 10 seconds sounds reasonably justified
[03:02] <LjL> Seeker`: i think we all agree. possibly even less.
[03:03] <LjL> Seeker`: but keep in mind that 1600 people doesn't mean the *same* 1600 people all the time... a lot of people join, and a lot of people part
[03:03] <LjL> but a reasonable +J setting doesn't stop being reasonable, no
[03:04] <rob> depends :) Just come up with something you think as reasonable and adjust it as needed on the fly.
[03:04] <Seeker`> how does this sound: set it to something like 2,5, redirect overflow to a channl with a topic explaining that the channel is overcrowded and to try again soon. If the channel starts getting huge, alter the limit
[03:05] <LjL> Seeker`: join #ubuntu-unregged.
[03:05] <LjL> it's exactly what we used to do.
[03:05] <Seeker`> was there a problem with that method?
[03:05] <LjL> and -unregged never got huge, for the record - quite the contrary
[03:05] <LjL> Seeker`: yes. on server deaths, +J causes terrible problems.
[03:06] <LjL> it's a rare event, but when it happens it's apparently a nightmare
[03:06] <LjL> that's the only real problem
[03:06] <Seeker`> beecause everyone tries to rejoin?
[03:06] <rob> hopefully server deaths won't happen :)
[03:06] <LjL> rob: that's what i say, but pessimism reigns :)
[03:06] <Seeker`> a) what is the likely hood that all ops will be on the same server
[03:06] <Seeker`> b) how quickly can someone -J?
[03:07] <rob> LjL, a netsplit is an example of a time where you might want to alter or remove +J completely for a bit
[03:07] <LjL> Seeker`: a) zero, but does it matter? b) not quick enough
[03:07] <LjL> rob, it seemed that netsplits were handled well actually, it was only netsplits caused by servers going down that were a problem...
[03:08] <Jucato> %login
[03:08] <ubotu> OK
[03:08] <Seeker`> if a server dies properly, surely you are talking up to a min before people start rejoinig?
[03:08] <LjL> Seeker`, honestly, i've never experienced that.
[03:08] <LjL> i'd have kept +J if it had been for me
[03:08] <LjL> but it was removed because of that issue.
[03:09] <Seeker`> because it wont go "ooh, netsplit, lets try again", the client will just have no more connection, so it has to time out before it will retry
[03:09] <LjL> Seeker`: if the server gives a FIN, then clients will immediately try to reconnect to another server
[03:10] <LjL> but really i don't know about the details. i'm just telling you that +J was voted down at some stage, because that was felt to be a problem.
[03:11] <LjL> all i'm saying is: what is the likelyhood of a bad server crash during the week after release? murphy's law would say "high", but rationality says "low enough".
[03:11] <LjL> so, *temporarily*, +J should be fine. permanently, that's another matter, but not one i'm concerned about right now
[03:12] <LjL> exactly.
[03:12] <mneptok> i just had a mass-join bot attack ...
[03:12] <mneptok> ... in my pants.
[03:12] <Seeker`> mneptok: you fail :P
[03:12] <LjL> and a good bot attack can cause probably somewhere around 200 clients to disconnect (taking the increased number of users into account), which is bad enough
[03:13] <Seeker`> do the attacks usually rely on making the clients send so much data that the server kicks them?
[03:13] <LjL> Seeker`: they do.
[03:13] <Daviey> disconnect... then immedietly reconnect - circle continues
[03:13] <Seeker`> someone should write a server to stop that :P
[03:13] <Seeker`> any volunteers?
[03:14] <LjL> Seeker`: not very feasible... it should be the *client's* task to avoid flooding out
[03:14] <rob> Seeker`, the problem is it starts to impact on freedom of speech and privacy when the ircd starts trying to filter things
[03:14] <LjL> but most clients aren't, uhm, very good at that
[03:14] <Seeker`> that was more of a joke than a real suggestion
[03:14] <rob> Seeker`, trust me Freenode has discussed it at great length :)
[03:15] <LjL> rob: although the suggestion to have some mode, let's call it +C, to stop people from CTCP'ing the channel sounds reasonable to me. we have a similar mode for users.
[03:15] <rob> LjL, problem with that is /me is a CTCP.
[03:15] <LjL> rob: surely one that can be told apart by the server
[03:15] <Seeker`> rob: It may be in the standard to allow CTCP to many users frequently, but in reality, the chances of it being used on a big server like freenode for a "legitimate" purpose is pretty low
[03:15] <rob> again, filtering, it also would put a lot of stress on the servers.
[03:16] <LjL> rob: true.
[03:16] <LjL> rob: really, if only irc clients wouldn't be so dumb, it would be a non-issue
[03:16] <rob> LjL, yep.
[03:16] <LjL> rob: xchat just happily replies to the CTCPs, and excess floods
[03:17] <rob> LjL, one way to protect yourself from it is to disable automatic replying to ctcp, its what I have done
[03:17] <LjL> rob: my konversation manages to avoid the excess flood, but still it doesn't give *my own* messages priority over the CTCP replies, so i'm blocked from doing anything
[03:17] <LjL> rob: yes, i've been thinking of doing that
[03:17] <LjL> Seeker`: floods.
[03:17] <Seeker`> any nice ways to stop it?
[03:18] <LjL> Seeker`: most likely... irssi can be scripted in about every thinkable way
[03:18] <rob> in xchat, blank out all the automatic replies in the CTCP dialog and set irc_hide_version to 1
[03:19] <LjL> rob, i'm afraid there's nothing to disable CTCP replies in konversation (i could perhaps /ignore them, but then i wouldn't see them coming anymore). there's the freenode umode, though
[03:19] <rob> in xchat there is also flood_ctcp_num and flood_ctcp_time you can fiddle with
[03:20] <LjL> and anyway, i'm running on a proxy now. it's a terrible proxy, and i should get some better one, so i should be able to bypass konversation's weaknesses
[03:20] <LjL> at least some of them
[03:20] <LjL> i just need to bother doing it
[03:20] <rob> I'm yet to find a decent irc proxy that works with xchat well enough for continued use, muh comes close
[03:21] <LjL> rob: muh comes close...?! then i'm hopeless
[03:21] <rob> there is a fork of muh that is even better
[03:21] <LjL> muh is what i'm using, and what i'm finding terrible
[03:21] <rob> LjL, try the fork
[03:21] <LjL> in the repos?
[03:22] <rob> I doubt it
[03:22] <LjL> i might be better off just writing a script i think
[03:22] <Daviey> why not just use irssi on a remote box?
[03:22] <rob> LjL, miau
[03:22] <LjL> rob: muh doesn't even auto set /away on detach, heck... not to mention its log format, ugh
[03:22] <rob> http://miau.sourceforge.net/
[03:23] <LjL> Daviey: because i want to use a darn gui client.
[03:23] <Daviey> heh
[03:23] <rob> One of Miau's features is: Can set user away when client quits and can also use user's quit-message as away-message.
[03:23] <Daviey> X-Chat + SOCKS proxy?
[03:24] <LjL> Daviey, eh? what good would that do?
[03:24] <Seeker`> but i dont know how to test it
[03:24] <rob> also note that the ugly logs are probably because of freenode's ircd and not the bouncer, but I think miau can fix that too
[03:24] <Daviey> LjL: why are you running a proxy?
[03:24] <LjL> rob, it shows times without dates. i doubt that's freenode's fault :)
[03:25] <rob> oh? I don't remember miau having that problem
[03:25] <LjL> Daviey: 1) because it takes an age to join channels like #ubuntu, given the /names list  2) because i'd like to have full logs  3) because i might connect from other machines  4) because, although i can't do that yet, it may help overcoming konv's limitations
[03:26] <LjL> rob: they have .deb packages of miau for etch anyway it seems, so i could try it
[03:26] <rob> nice
[03:26] <Daviey> Oh.. i assumed it was just because you couldn't connect to IRC - ie restrictive firewall
[03:26] <rob> last time I used it I had to compile it myself
[03:26] <LjL> rob: oh another terrible thing in muh's logs: when users quit the server or change their nickname, it's shown in *every* log file, including ones for channels those people were not in.
[03:27] <LjL> when i grep my logs, i always have to | grep -v "has quit" | grep -v "is now known as"
[03:27] <LjL> talk about elegant :)
[03:27] <LjL> Daviey: nope, my firewall is restrictive but it's fine for irc :)
[03:27] <rob> LjL, I'm pretty sure miau was forked from muh because the author hated certain things like that in muh and wanted to fix them
[03:29] <LjL> rob: you know what i'd love? a gui irc client that can go back in time. you know, like those new GUI file managers that support versioning filesystems
[03:29] <LjL> move a slider, and see every channel exactly as you had it at the given date
[03:29] <rob> LjL, the latest xchat has backlogs inbuilt
[03:30] <LjL> rob, konversation has something too, i can right-click on the channel and open the log in a konversation tab... but that's not the same thing as actually seeing the stuff happen
[03:30] <rob> no, its backlog replay.
[03:30] <LjL> rob: actually, i'd be able to completely *replay* things that happened, in real time (or accelerated time)
[03:30] <LjL> reading logs, even if you're careful to look at the timestamps, is a totally different thing from *being there*
[03:30] <rob> when you join a channel you were in previously, it replays the log files
[03:31] <LjL> rob: konversation does that too... it shows the last N lines of last time you joined
[03:31] <LjL> that's useful but in a limited way
[03:31] <rob> yes, but if you had the whole entire log there it would be even less useful, you are better off grepping them from the command line if you want to find something
[03:32] <Seeker`> Daviey: does irssi log by default?
[03:32] <nalioth> Seeker`: it does not
[03:32] <Seeker`> good
[03:32] <LjL> rob, you're right, if i had the whole entire log, i'd understand nothing and grep would be better.  but imagine not having the entire log, but rather: i set a date and time (or search for a phrase), and my irc clients shows *exactly* what it showed at that time
[03:33] <LjL> and if i click "play", it replays the stuff in real time
[03:33] <LjL> it shows it *for all channels*.
[03:33] <rob> why? Most of what goes on is boring :)
[03:33] <Seeker`> LjL: that probably would'nt be /too/ hard to program
[03:33] <Daviey> Seeker`: logs are useful..
[03:34] <LjL> rob: because 1) reading logs doesn't give you the information about *time*, which is vital, much more so than one would think  2) there's no easy way to cross-check logs, i.e. if i want to see what was happening in #ubuntu-ops while we had, say, a bot attack in #ubuntu, it's hard to do with just grep
[03:34] <LjL> if i could just tell me client "ok, now give me the situation exactly as it was on 14 october at 20:00, and start playing it at 2x" - that'd give me an idea of what was *actually* going on
[03:35] <LjL> Seeker`: well it involves GUI programming, something i'm totally unfamiliar with
[03:35] <rob> actually you could probably just write a script that could do it for an existing client, but to be honest I don't see too much value in it
[03:36] <LjL> rob: a script wouldn't really work because you couldn't *quickly* jump back and forth, you'd have to restart the client every time
[03:36] <Seeker`> LjL: but if you made the bit behind it, you could probably get someone to do the front end
[03:37] <LjL> rob: have you never noticed how the *delays* between messages can be much more meaningful than the messages themselves?
[03:37] <LjL> Seeker`: i kind of doubt it :)
[03:37] <rob> not true. Just have a command that accepts start and end times then just replays in whatever window/s you want
[03:37] <Seeker`> LjL: and why does it have to be in your clinet? why not a seperate app
[03:37] <LjL> Seeker`: yes, it could be a separate app
[03:37] <Daviey> I agree with Seeker`, it really would be a few hours programming.. but I can't find the time as i see little usefulness
[03:37] <rob> LjL, you can judge that pretty easily from timestamps
[03:38] <Seeker`> Daviey: I feel that my spare programming time should go towards mootbot atm
[03:38] <LjL> rob: and how do i say "stop", and "now go back by 30 seconds", and "switch to the #kubuntu tab", and "now highlight the regexp xyz"
[03:38] <LjL> rob, timestamps are very easily missed. you have to check each one of them.
[03:38] <rob> LjL, build on the script :)
[03:38] <Seeker`> LjL: a script can be interactive
[03:38] <LjL> rob, how can a script erase what was previously in the window?
[03:38] <rob> why bother erasing it?
[03:39] <rob> and /clear will do it :)
[03:39] <Seeker`> LjL: apt-get update countdown timer in the right hand corner?
[03:39] <Daviey> pyGTK supports tabs v. easily...
[03:39] <LjL> Seeker`: if it's interactive to the point where it has to use ncurses, it's hardly a "script" in the form i usually think of a script
[03:40] <LjL> rob, think looking at a film - i mean actually looking at the strip of plastic - versus actually playing the movie in it.
[03:40] <rob> LjL, whats what you have a scrollbar for :)
[03:40] <Seeker`> LjL: but the UI doesn't have to be tied to the back end - write something that outputs the text you want, and then code the UI to deal with deleting stuff etc.
[03:41] <LjL> rob: but the movie isn't *one* channel, it's *all* the channels i'm in, since they may (and often are) correlated. and a scrollbar rarely works for a log that comprises 2 years of stuff
[03:41] <LjL> Seeker`: yes sure that would be perfectly feasible. but eventually the gui would have to be written
[03:41] <rob> yeah, that's what grep is for
[03:41] <LjL> rob: then what's the grep command to tell me what was happening #ubuntu-ops when someone said "duck!" in #kubuntu?
[03:42] <LjL> s/happening #/happening in #/
[03:42] <Seeker`> LjL: couldn't you just link two windows, and do some clever maths with timestamps to work out how much eahc window needs to scroll by
[03:42] <rob> cat logfile.log | grep duck!
[03:42] <Daviey> grep + awk the timestamp + grep the other log :D
[03:42] <Seeker`> so if you move the #ubuntu window by 30 secs, it will recalculate what to display on each of the other windows
[03:43] <LjL> rob: erm, logfiles usually comprise *one* channel
[03:43] <rob> LjL, use sed
[03:43] <rob> LjL, its the same silly logic they recently applied to everything under /etc/atp/sources.d from sources.list
[03:44] <LjL> Daviey: and you call that quick and easy? i hope not. what i call quick and easy is: i come to IRC, i see there has been a mess, i want to understand what happened... i don't type 150 grep awk and sed commands, i just replay the parts that matter
[03:44] <LjL> rob: are you saying one should keep every channel in the same logfile?
[03:44] <Daviey> LjL: unless you want to develop a GUI for this - i think a shell/perl script is the best way to achieve what you want
[03:45] <Seeker`> I'm at home tomorrow, so i can help spot trolls etc.
[03:45] <LjL> Daviey: i'm precisely saying that i would like a GUI for this. and the others are saying it's pointless. i'm simply saying that i think it's not -- and it's not like i started grepping logfiles yesterday, i've done it for a while, and i know i sometimes find it cumbersome =)
[03:46] <Daviey> LjL: don't get me wrong.. I see why it can be useful.
[03:47] <LjL> i don't even think it'd be very hard to write, it's just that i've never done any GUI programming. sometime i really should start, it's limiting.
[03:48] <Daviey> LjL: pyGTK will make it pretty damn easy IMO
[03:51] <LjL> Daviey: i'm on KDE, but i suppose there's something similar. but then i don't know python :)
[03:51] <LjL> of course it's not hard to learn python
[03:51] <LjL> and for that matter i suppose it's not hard to learn basic gui programming with a sane toolkit
[03:51] <LjL> it's just a matter of actually getting at it
[03:52] <LjL> really, all i was arguing was that such a program *can* be useful. when i feel less lazy (which doesn't happen often), i'd probably learn the stuff needed to write it
[03:54] <Daviey> Qt _can_ be easier to script + GUI
[03:55] <Daviey> but i _hate_ Qt
[03:55] <stdin> but Qt loves you, can't you love it back :)
[03:56] <Daviey> Qt can go to /dev/hell
[03:56] <Daviey> anyway.. time for bed.. nn
[03:56] <LjL> Daviey: i don't know really, i know there's kommander if one just wants to kludge something together, but when i tried it it didn't look as easy as the VB-style interface leads one to believe... so perhaps one is better off just programming without the fancy GUI widgeter
[03:57] <LjL> Daviey: well, to each one his own, seeker is right in that i should write a backend, then i can write a kde frontend and you write a gtk one :)
[03:57] <LjL> night
[03:57] <Daviey> LjL: I have little experience with kommander.. one app i did poke at the src was http://www.luckies.nl/remotekommander/
[03:57] <Daviey> and that is pretty simple..
[03:57] <Daviey> but really - going to bed /now/
[04:13] <nzero> hey its been 24 hours uban me so i don't have to unplug my dsl modem
[04:13] <nzero> unban*
[04:16] <nzero> ubotu:ping
[04:16] <ubotu> pong
[04:16] <nzero> !hi | gnomefreak
[04:16] <ubotu> gnomefreak: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-ops!
[04:24] <nzero> !Life
[04:24] <ubotu> life is something very few people know about in this channel - and anyway, it's probably offtopic, perhaps you want to try #ubuntu-offtopic
[04:25] <nzero> whatever i will restart my modem tommorow  on be on ruining your lives
[05:05] <ubotu> posingaspopular called the ops in #ubuntu-chicago
[06:22] <nalioth> jdong: you don't speak tagalog ?
[06:22] <jdong> nalioth: unfortunately I don't. It's on my list of things to learn
[06:24] <rob> nalioth, they are not back again are they? They got several warnings yesterday and one was even kicked out over it.
[06:25] <ubotu> astro76 called the ops in #ubuntu
[06:25] <jdong> 00:25 -!-  channels : #ubuntu @#cisco-hr #ubuntuforums #ubuntu-hr #deluge
[06:25] <jdong> whee.
[06:26] <nalioth> rob: no tagalog speakers sighted by me
[06:27] <nalioth> er, typers
[06:30] <ubotu> jdong called the ops in #ubuntu
[08:51] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-ca, rouben said: ubotu: that is brilliant! :)
[10:13] <Myrtti> FYI irssi users: http://www.pthree.org/2007/07/11/irssi-chanserv-and-nickserv-helper-aliases/#comment-72937
[10:13] <Myrtti> I thought that might be nice in addition to the earlier aliases published in that blog post
[10:13] <Myrtti> in re: recent discussions on the mailing list
[10:16] <rob> /remove is a server function, yes
[10:17] <Myrtti> though I'm not sure if all the irc ops using irssi are aware of that post at all
[10:17] <rob> it forces the other user to /part :)
[10:17] <Myrtti> yeah
[10:17] <rob> I've seen other ircds with lots of wicked things like that, very evil
[10:17] <Myrtti> /me ponders whether the link to the original blog entry should be mailed on the mailing list
[10:18] <Myrtti> rob: I noticed an email on the mailing list that suggested the usage of /remove over /kick on #ubuntu-domain channels
[10:18] <rob> Myrtti, typically ubuntu ops use /remove rather then /kick as it does not trigger the clients auto-join ability
[10:19] <Myrtti> yeah
[10:19] <Myrtti> so there you have it
[10:19] <rob> sometimes they just use it an not /ban as well
[10:19] <Myrtti> if you're using irssi
[10:23] <Myrtti> /me has used auto_bleh and was unhappy with it


[02:11] <sorcerer> so i did a do-release-upgrade -d to the latest and now i got 2 volume controls, 2 usb, 2 battery in my notification bar
[02:11] <sorcerer> 2 usb = 2 bluetooth... my bad
[02:12] <sorcerer>  it looks like it still has the old one and the new one cause they look and act a lil differently
[02:15] <v1adimir> did you end the old session when rebooting..
[11:04] <Perfec7> bom dia a todos!
[11:37] <DarkTrick> how can I uninstall baloo_file? apparently there is no package named after the exec
[11:49] <diogenes_> DarkTrick, isn't baloo a KDE thing?
[11:59] <DarkTrick> diogenes_, interesting hint
[12:00] <DarkTrick> maybe it came with nemo ...
[12:00] <diogenes_> DarkTrick, and nemo is a cinnamon thing :)
[12:00] <diogenes_> looks like you've got a frankenxubuntu.
[12:00] <DarkTrick> diogenes_, I needed to install a few file managers to compare their source to thunar
[12:01] <diogenes_> DarkTrick, then there you have it, look for dophin as well because that might actually be the hint.
[12:01] <DarkTrick> dolphin might be kde
[12:01] <diogenes_> ^^^
[12:01] <DarkTrick> 👍
[12:02] <DarkTrick> interstingly baloo is only freaking out my virtual machine, but not the host
[12:03] <diogenes_> DarkTrick, because it's doing the indexing which takes lots of disk reads.
[12:03] <diogenes_> and CPU too.
[12:03] <DarkTrick> Thank you very much for your help, diogenes_ !
[12:03] <diogenes_> no problem.
[12:57] <Guest5526> hello everyone
[12:59] <Guest5526> i have xubuntu 19.10 in use and tried to run autodock in it
[12:59] <Guest5526> however, it runs so sluggish that practically impossible to get any step done
[12:59] <Guest5526> can anyone help me?
[13:01] <Guest5526> OK noone i guess
[13:01] <Guest5526> have a nice day all
[14:22] <v1adimir> well..
[14:22] <v1adimir> yeah..
[14:48] <Deano59> well..
[14:48] <Deano59> yeah..
[14:48]  * Deano59 shrugs
[15:01] <gnrp> uhm...
[15:01] <n-iCe> uhm
[15:01] <gnrp> yeah...
[15:06] <v1adimir> hehe :P
[15:07] <Deano59> lol
[15:07] <v1adimir> ^^ all they had to do is wait a bit, btw., meh. :$
[15:08] <v1adimir> .. guess that the install doesn't take that long, anyway
[15:08] <Deano59> wat
[15:09] <v1adimir> * Guest5526<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has left
[15:17] <lwmar> Hello everyone, I am having freezing issues with Xubuntu 20 LTS, anyone can help me to diagnose the problem please? thanks
[15:18] <n-iCe> lwmar: when
[15:18] <n-iCe> doing what
[15:18] <lwmar> anytime this freezes happen
[15:19] <lwmar> last time was while the pc was downloading some torrent files using transmission
[15:19] <n-iCe> do
[15:19] <n-iCe> OFFICIAL crDroid || ViperOS || RR
[15:19] <n-iCe> sudo apt-get update
[15:19] <lwmar> One of the weird this is regarding one of the secondary hard disks I have
[15:19] <n-iCe> and sudo apt-get update
[15:20] <n-iCe> and sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
[15:21] <lwmar> I am sorry I am not an advance user: what is the meaning of: OFFICIAL crDroid || ViperOS || RR
[15:22] <n-iCe> my error, don't read that, use the commands.
[15:22] <lwmar> ok
[15:22] <n-iCe> sudo apt update and sudo apt dist-upgrade
[15:23] <lwmar> m@m-desktop:~$ sudo apt-get update[sudo] password for m: Hit:1 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu focal InReleaseHit:2 http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu focal-security InReleaseHit:3 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu focal-updates InReleaseReading package lists... Donem@m-desktop:~$ sudo apt dist-upgradeReading package lists... DoneBuilding dependency
[15:23] <lwmar> tree       Reading state information... DoneCalculating upgrade... DoneThe following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:  cpu-checker debugedit g++-7 gcc-8-base:i386 geoclue geoclue-ubuntu-geoip  gir1.2-gtksource-3.0 gir1.2-harfbuzz-0.0 ibverbs-providers  indicator-applet-complete ipxe-qemu
[15:23] <lwmar> ipxe-qemu-256k-compat-efi-roms  kdelibs5-data libaio1 libbfio1 libblkid-dev libcacard0 libcamel-1.2-61  libdlrestrictions1 libdouble-conversion1 libebook-contacts-1.2-2  libecal-1.2-19 libedataserver-1.2-23 libexempi3 libexiv2-14 libexpat1-dev  libfdt1 libffi-dev libffi6:i386 libgail-3-0 libgegl-0.3-0 libgeoclue0  libgfortran4 libgl1-mesa-glx:i386
[15:23] <lwmar> libglade2-0 libglib2.0-dev  libglib2.0-dev-bin libgmime-3.0-0 libgraphite2-dev libgrilo-0.3-0  libgtkmm-2.4-1v5 libgweather-3-15 libharfbuzz-dev libharfbuzz-gobject0  libhogweed4:i386 libibverbs1 libicu-le-hb-dev libicu-le-hb0 libicu60:i386  libiculx60 libiscsi7 libjs-coffeescript libkonq5-templates liblinear3  liblivemedia62 libllvm3.9
[15:23] <lwmar> libmicrodns0 libmount-dev libmysqlclient20  libnettle6:i386 libnfs11 libnm-glib4 libnm-util2 libnss-myhostname libonig4  libpangox-1.0-0 libpcre2-dev libpcre2-posix2 libplacebo4 libpmem1  libpodofo0.9.5 libprotobuf-lite10 libprotobuf10 libpython-all-dev  libpython2-dev libpython2.7-dev libqgsttools-p1 libqt5script5 librados2  libraw16 librbd1
[15:23] <lwmar> librdmacm1 librpmbuild8 librpmsign8 libruby2.5  libselinux1-dev libsepol1-dev libslirp0 libsndio6.1:i386 libspeexdsp1:i386  libspice-server1 libsqlite0 libstdc++-7-dev libstreamanalyzer0v5  libstreams0v5 libtidy5 libtinfo-dev libupnp6 libusbredirparser1  libvirglrenderer1 libwireshark11 libwiretap8 libwscodecs2 libwsutil9  libxapian30 libxen-4.9
[15:23] <lwmar> libxenstore3.0 libxentoolcore1 libzeitgeist-2.0-0  libzip4 msr-tools ovmf phonon-backend-gstreamer-common python-all  python-all-dev python-apsw python-asn1crypto  python-backports.functools-lru-cache python-bs4 python-cairo  python-cffi-backend python-chardet python-configparser python-crypto  python-cryptography python-dateutil python-dbus
[15:23] <lwmar> python-dnspython  python-entrypoints python-enum34 python-gi python-gobject-2 python-html5lib  python-idna python-ipaddress python-keyring python-libxml2 python-lxml  python-markdown python-netifaces python-olefile python-openssl  python-packaging python-pil python-pip-whl python-pkg-resources  python-pycurl python-pygments python-pyparsing
[15:23] <lwmar> python-rpm python-setuptools  python-simplejson python-sip python-six python-soupsieve python-sqlite  python-webencodings python-xdg python-yaml python2-dev python2.7-dev  python3-distutils python3-lib2to3 qemu-block-extra qemu-efi-aarch64  qemu-efi-arm qemu-slof qemu-system qemu-system-arm qemu-system-common  qemu-system-data qemu-system-gui
[15:23] <n-iCe> holly
[15:23] <n-iCe> just accept and upgrade
[15:29] <lw-mar> Hi again, something was not working so I reentered the channel with a new similar nickname
[15:30] <lw-mar> I was saying that there is nothing to accept there, all is already to the latest version
[15:37] <lw-mar87> anyone else who can help me please?
[15:37] <n-iCe> uhm
[15:37] <n-iCe> check logs
[15:37] <diogenes_> lw-mar87, run: sudo apt autoremove and reboot.
[15:38] <diogenes_> after it's done removing.
[15:43] <v1adimir> oh, boy
[15:43] <v1adimir> https://paste.ubuntu.com/ if anyone is ever thinking of doing that ^^ again. xD
[15:45] <lw-mar> ok, done, how I can share my logs with you here?
[15:46] <v1adimir> lw-mar: hold on, please
[15:46] <v1adimir> URL: https://paste.ubuntu.com
[15:47] <v1adimir> set the expiry as well, don't need to clog up the server forever
[15:47] <lw-mar> what file/s should I share?
[15:49] <v1adimir> oh, sorry, I wasn't following..:) also, for files, maybe something like dropbox, or https://transfer.pcloud.com/ or similar
[15:49] <v1adimir> ^^ just saw the crazy-spam. xD
[15:52] <lw-mar> c1adimir my xubuntu 20.04 LTS is freezing sometimes so I am trying to diagnose the problem. I need to know what log files you need to see
[15:52] <lw-mar> *v1adimir
[15:53] <v1adimir> lw-mar: you weren't trying to do a upgrade? https://www.facebook.com/groups/424769327667974/permalink/2009763459168545/
[15:53] <v1adimir> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+do+a+Xubuntu+LTS+release+upgrade
[15:53] <v1adimir> +https://docs.xubuntu.org/1910/user/en_GB/xubuntu-documentation-USletter.pdf
[15:53] <lw-mar> everything is upgraded to the latest version here now v1adimir
[15:54] <lw-mar> it was already really, I only deleted all files as someone here suggested using autoremove
[15:54] <v1adimir> ok so autoremove and autoclean and clean and apt update didn't help?..
[15:54] <lw-mar> no
[15:54] <v1adimir> hm :(
[15:55] <diogenes_> lw-mar, has it ever happened before the upgrade?
[15:55] <lw-mar> the problem I think is realted to one of my secondary hard disks as when I open thunar it takes a long time to react with that disk, however any other operation with that disk works fine
[15:55] <lw-mar> the problem with thunar yes but the problem of freezing no
[15:56] <lw-mar> I used a soft called GSmartControl and it shows that disk as ok as far as I can see
[15:57] <diogenes_> can you just disconnect the 2nd drive to rule it out from the equation?
[15:58] <lw-mar> I can try that later, not now really
[15:58] <lw-mar> do you want to see logs? which ones?
[15:58] <v1adimir> (afk, btw., :))
[15:59] <diogenes_> lw-mar, first we'll see if it's drive's fault.
[16:00] <lw-mar> but that drive works well with Windows
[16:00] <diogenes_> is it NTFS?
[16:00] <lw-mar> yes
[16:01] <diogenes_> then of course it works fine with windoz.
[16:03] <lw-mar> you mean NTFS should work with problems in linux?
[16:04] <diogenes_> lw-mar, i mean it might in theory since it's ms garbage.
[16:04] <lw-mar> there is no gain for me to disconnect the drive, I am needing to make this drive work fine with Ubuntu
[16:05] <diogenes_> that's for testing purpose, not permanently.
[16:07] <lw-mar> ok I will need to do that then...
[16:40] <xu-help89w> hi from Rome, Italy,  I can't remove my notebook password
[16:40] <xu-help89w> may you help me please?
[16:40] <v1adimir> xu-help89w: maybe, probably. :-$
[16:41] <xu-help89w> ok, tell me,what can I do?
[16:44] <v1adimir> is it a forgotten password that you're talking about? not a stolen machine?..;) i can see some results, at: 1) https://www.google.com/search?q=reset+ubuntu+forgotten+password and 2) https://duckduckgo.com/?q=reset+ubuntu+forgotten+password
[16:46] <xu-help89w> no, I know my password, the machine is mine, not stolen, it's very strange : the passowrd works on login, but when I try to remove it
[16:46] <xu-help89w> it is not recognized
[16:48] <v1adimir> xu-help89w: tried changing it, first?..:)
[16:51] <n-iCe> hi
[16:52] <xu-help89w> I have tried to changing too, but no way....
[16:53] <xu-help89w> Hi n-Ice
[16:53] <v1adimir> gtg, tc. gl. =)
[16:55] <xu-help89w> n-Ice may you help me to solve this problem?
[16:56] <n-iCe> what problem
[16:59] <xu-help89w> I can't remove my notebook password, it's very strange : the passowrd works on login, but when I try to remove it it is not recognized
[17:01] <n-iCe> xu-help89w: did you try chaning it?
[17:01] <n-iCe> first
[17:01] <xu-help89w> yes, I tried it, but no way...
[17:02] <n-iCe> try ,sudo passwd root
[17:07] <xu-help89w> and then?
[17:08] <n-iCe> change the password
[17:08] <n-iCe> oh wait, I'm in xubuntu lol
[17:09] <n-iCe> xu-help89w: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/223965/i-cant-change-users-passwd-on-ubuntu
[17:25] <xu-help89w> n-Ice, sudo passwd root is ok, but it if I want remove passwd, which is the next step?
[17:25] <n-iCe> why do you want to remove password
[17:27] <xu-help89w> because it is not important for me
[17:28] <n-iCe> then just leave it
[17:28] <n-iCe> if you insist, read this https://askubuntu.com/questions/281074/can-i-set-my-user-account-to-have-no-password
[19:31] <Loki> Hey y'all. I am using 20.04 and I am trying to add a vpn through network manager and when I install the network-manager-openvpn (or whatever it is called), it does provide the option to add it, or to import a config - but, it doesn't provide the options it should, like confirming the cert and that kind of data. This is even the case when I try to add it manually. I am comparing this to what I have been able to do in the past. Any ideas?
[22:50] <tomreyn> Loki: not all options may be exposed / available on the graphical frontend. you may need to modify the vpn connection profile using nmcli (maybe nmtui also works)
[23:00] <Loki> tomreyn, interesting, I had been able to do it in the past
[23:00] <Loki> so, I wasn't sure why it wouldn't be able to be done now
[23:01] <Loki> I can just run the openvpn command, that's no big deal, it's just, why have a openvpn module for NM, which has worked before, but doesn't now?
[23:16] <Perfec7> boa noite a todos!


[00:11] <WACOMalt> So I am on Ubuntu Studio 10.10. I have a midi keyboard that only shows up in the ALSA tab.  But more problematic is that now the ALSA tab has disappeared!  What should I check?
[00:11] <WACOMalt> And if I get that fixed, how can I get an Alsa midi device to plug into a JackMidi port?
[00:17] <ariyer> Hi
[00:17] <ariyer> Is anyone here?
[00:17] <WACOMalt> I am, but I'm not much of help I bet
[00:18] <WACOMalt> More of an "ask then wait until someone who knows comes on" sorta deal here it seems
[00:18] <ariyer> ok.
[00:18] <ariyer> I'm interested in helping out with ubuntustudio
[00:18] <ariyer> But I don't know how.
[00:19] <WACOMalt> I think they have a link on the forums in the ubuntu-studio section abotu how to contribute
[00:20] <ariyer> Whoops. My bad. I'll go take a look.
[00:20] <WACOMalt> cool cool
[00:22] <ariyer> Okay, so I think I fall into somewhere between the "Advanced User" and "The Hacker"
[04:10] <toenail> holstein: got the printer working  but back to the firepod now its not connecting all the sudden
[04:18] <toenail> or anyone just help getting my firepod working again dont know why it doesnt anymore
[04:29] <holstein> hey toenail
[04:30] <holstein> just double check your jack settings
[04:30] <toenail> hey whats up im having problems again how about that ha
[04:30] <holstein> you want the 'firewire' driver
[04:30] <toenail> i went to setup and backtraced to what you said before and all the same
[04:30] <holstein> most everything else can be default
[04:31] <toenail> 23:25:10.346 Could not connect to JACK server as client. - Overall operation failed. - Unable to connect to server. Please check the messages window for more info.
[04:31] <toenail> Cannot connect to server socket err = No such file or directory
[04:31] <toenail> Cannot connect to server socket
[04:31] <toenail> jack server is not running or cannot be started
[04:31] <holstein> yup
[04:31] <holstein> thats what it'll look like
[04:31] <holstein> lets double check your jack settings
[04:31] <toenail> all the time
[04:31] <holstein> driver should be 'firewire'
[04:31] <toenail> roger
[04:31] <holstein> priority defaulr
[04:32] <holstein> default*
[04:32] <holstein> frames/period probably around
[04:32] <holstein> 256
[04:33] <holstein> periods/buffer 2
[04:33] <toenail> frames 256 - rate 44100 - buffer 2 - port max 256 -timeout msec 500- audio duplex
[04:33] <holstein> yup
[04:33] <holstein> that seems right
[04:33] <holstein> close jack
[04:33] <holstein> open a terminal
[04:33] <holstein> and run
[04:33] <holstein> sudo qjackctl
[04:33] <holstein> and see if JACK starts as root
[04:33] <toenail> i did it with sudo as well and samething
[04:34] <holstein> i would check the hardware then
[04:34] <holstein> i would make sure i have it connected
[04:34] <holstein> i would power both the firepod and the computer off
[04:34] <holstein> and back on
[04:34] <holstein> and make sure the firepod is connected when the computer boots
[04:34] <holstein> just in case
[04:34] <toenail> it is dont worry im not that dumb
[04:35] <toenail> thats one of the first things my granpa tought me is it plugged in
[04:35] <holstein> toenail: how about 'interface' settings?
[04:35] <toenail> its great saying that when i worked at a call center and that was the problem
[04:35] <holstein> toenail: im only suggesting it because i have done it before ;)
[04:36] <toenail> ok . also i powered down the pod and even switched ports on both device and card
[04:36] <toenail> also check ubu studio controls to make sure the card is enabled
[04:37] <toenail> so how would i go about that
[04:37] <holstein> it might show up in lspci
[04:37] <toenail> sorry dont know what that is
[04:38] <toenail> i really haven used ubuntu sense version 6.10 i think so its like starting all over again
[04:38] <holstein> in a terminal
[04:38] <holstein> run lspci
[04:38] <toenail> ok
[04:39] <toenail> its a reconizing it
[04:39] <toenail> its listed
[04:40] <toenail> 05:09.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): VIA Technologies, Inc. VT6306/7/8 [Fire II(M)] IEEE 1394 OHCI Controller (rev 80)
[04:42] <toenail> is there a way to see if the pod is connected to the card through terminal or rather reconizing it
[04:43] <holstein> i hate to say it
[04:43] <holstein> but, it could be that chip
[04:43] <holstein> toenail: try running it as root
[04:43] <holstein> and pastebin me all the output
[04:43] <holstein> and keep that link handy in case we need to drop it over in #jack
[04:45] <toenail> same results
[04:45] <toenail> how do i pastebin, i remeber you gave me a link before or something
[04:45] <holstein> http://paste.ubuntu.com/
[04:46] <holstein> ^^ you can use that one too
[04:46] <holstein> maybe its something really obvious in there
[04:46] <toenail> ok type your name or youll find it it ?
[04:46] <holstein> it'll give you a link
[04:47] <holstein> when you say paste
[04:47] <toenail> oh see im retarded
[04:47] <holstein> and drop me the URL
[04:47] <holstein> toenail: nah
[04:47] <holstein> it just takes a bit of getting used to
[04:47] <holstein> you just cant paste that much text in a channel
[04:47] <holstein> you get dropped for flooding
[04:47] <toenail> http://paste.ubuntu.com/529107/
[04:48] <holstein> cool
[04:48] <holstein> paste me the output in JACK
[04:48] <holstein> from...
[04:48] <holstein> 'messages
[04:48] <toenail> ok
[04:48] <holstein> after it fails
[04:50] <toenail> http://paste.ubuntu.com/529109/
[04:53] <holstein> hmmm
[04:53] <holstein> i dont see anything obvious to me
[04:54] <holstein> i would drop that in #jack
[04:55] <holstein> and/or #opensourcemusicians
[04:56] <holstein> i just asked in #opensourcemusicians
[04:57] <holstein> i just got a 'check the cables' response ;)
[04:57] <holstein> toenail: im sure you've tried both 1 and 2 ports on the firepod?
[04:57] <toenail> well the ports on the card are quite loose
[04:58] <toenail> yea
[04:58] <holstein> you cant have anything else plugged in eigher
[04:58] <holstein> either*
[04:58] <holstein> not yet
[04:58] <holstein> soon we'll get that i hope
[04:58] <toenail> dont this is my only firewire device
[04:58] <holstein> toenail: what about the kernel
[04:59] <holstein> maybe try booting an older kernel
[04:59] <toenail> ahhh the kernal the thing i know is something has to do with something ha
[04:59] <holstein> thats easy enough to check
[04:59] <holstein> and quite plausible
[04:59] <toenail> well the last time before today i talked to you is when the system was running
[05:00] <holstein> BUT its something we need to mention ASAP
[05:00] <holstein> so it doesnt get taken out of the kernel :)
[05:00] <toenail> no thats understandable would doing updates interfear wth the kernal probably yes im guessing
[05:00] <holstein> toenail: totally
[05:01] <holstein> you could get a kernel update
[05:01] <holstein> OR a new kernel
[05:01] <toenail> im suck a n00b so how do i do that
[05:01] <holstein> and boom
[05:01] <toenail> either one whih would be easier
[05:01] <toenail> which*
[05:02] <holstein> toenail: run...
[05:02] <holstein> sudo gedit /etc/default/grub
[05:03] <holstein> #GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=0
[05:03] <holstein> if you add that # into that line
[05:03] <holstein> then, you'll see a grub list
[05:03] <holstein> when you reboot
[05:03] <holstein> and you can choose an older kernel
[05:03] <holstein> toenail: you have to run sudo update-grub
[05:03] <holstein> afterward
[05:04] <holstein> for the changes to take effect
[05:04] <holstein> toenail: i think you can hit shift?
[05:04] <holstein> while the computer is booting
[05:04] <holstein> and that will show you as well
[05:06] <toenail> ok added the # then save and reboot and hit shift when booting and run update or when i get into gui run suo update-grub in terminal
[05:06] <holstein> toenail: after you edit the file
[05:06] <holstein> run
[05:06] <holstein> sudo update-grub
[05:06] <holstein> BEFORE rebooting
[05:06] <holstein> and all is good
[05:06] <toenail> oh ok so no rebooting
[05:06] <toenail> ok
[05:07] <holstein> the shift thing is another way to do the same thing
[05:07] <holstein> to un-hide the grub list
[05:07] <holstein> temporarily
[05:07] <holstein> BUT i usually just un-hide mine right off
[05:07] <toenail> ok i ran it
[05:08] <toenail> http://paste.ubuntu.com/529118/
[05:08] <toenail> is that what normally happens
[05:08] <holstein> hmmm
[05:09] <toenail> im guessing not
[05:09] <holstein> http://paste.ubuntu.com/529120/
[05:10] <holstein> usually i see GRUB going and finding all the kernels
[05:16] <holstein> lowlatency woud play nicer with your setup anyways
[05:17] <toenail> would that change much of anything as in my gnome settings
[05:18] <holstein> nah
[05:18] <holstein> AND you can always remove it
[05:18] <holstein> OR boot the generic kernel
[05:18] <holstein> toenail: your going to see them at boot
[05:18] <holstein> you can choose which one you want
[05:19] <toenail> would i be able to use the pod though. cause i kind of need to record 4 tracks suck and single tracks through the mic input on the soundcard are just as bad or rather a pita
[05:19] <holstein> you see how many i have http://paste.ubuntu.com/529120/
[05:19] <holstein> i have the -realtime
[05:19] <holstein> and i was testing the -lowlatency
[05:19] <holstein> and 2 generic kernels
[05:19] <holstein> the latest, and the last one that was working
[05:20] <toenail> my two to your  ten
[05:20] <holstein> toenail: thats the goal
[05:20] <holstein> IF its the kernel that broke the pod
[05:20] <toenail> ok ill install then reboot and be back in hear and let you know were im at
[05:20] <holstein> :)
[05:21] <holstein> toenail: i'll go start my box
[05:21] <holstein> and see if i see the firepod when i run lspci
[05:21] <holstein> i cant remember if i see the pod, or just the firewire card like you have
[05:21] <toenail> i've noticed that using linux to get stuff working is a pain  but at least i wont have to reinstall the os in 3 months
[05:22] <holstein> hehe
[05:22] <holstein> nah, 6 months ;)
[05:22] <toenail> oh i didnt see the pod i was just saying is it plausable
[05:23] <toenail> well i went 3 months no pron or anything . a couple of programs to get my zip file pass that i forgot and they fuxzored the thing
[05:25] <holstein> toenail: AH
[05:25] <holstein> i'll have to ask about that
[05:25] <holstein> i dont see the pod with lspci
[05:25] <holstein> which makes sense
[05:25] <holstein> its a firewire device, not a PCI device
[05:25] <toenail> yea agreed
[05:27] <toenail> http://paste.ubuntu.com/529128/
[05:27] <toenail> maybe i was supposed to hit y and wasnt paying attention ill run again
[05:27] <holstein> hmmm
[05:28] <holstein> maybe that kernel isnt in maverick either
[05:28] <toenail> nope samedeal
[05:28] <holstein> i thought there was one low latency kernel up there
[05:29] <toenail> how would i find out which kernal im runing right now caus then ill try the other
[05:29] <holstein> uname -a
[05:29] <holstein> but your running Found linux image: /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.35-22-generic
[05:30] <holstein> BUT that could be the only kernel available
[05:30] <holstein> well, the only one you would be interested in
[05:30] <holstein> other than -lowlatency
[05:32] <toenail> ok?
[05:33] <holstein> toenail: SO
[05:33] <holstein> where does that leave us ?
[05:33] <toenail> i get what you mean but just dont know how to go forward. or reboot and try the other?
[05:33] <holstein> or you...
[05:33] <holstein> hmmm
[05:33] <toenail> thumb insertion
[05:33] <holstein> yup
[05:34] <holstein> toenail: i cant wait for you to get that system up and stable :)
[05:34] <toenail> as can i
[05:34] <holstein> iver really had a great time with the firepod and ubuntu the past few years
[05:35] <holstein> toenail: SO
[05:35] <holstein> you had JACK running?
[05:35] <toenail> i just dont really want to have to go back to xp
[05:35] <holstein> last time we talked
[05:35] <toenail> yea
[05:35] <holstein> and didnt mess with the settings at all
[05:35] <holstein> and it just craped out
[05:35] <holstein> boom
[05:35] <holstein> no warning?
[05:36] <toenail> nothing just shutdown, and next time i was on the pc again was when i was in here
[05:36] <holstein> toenail: do you have a windows install there still?
[05:36] <holstein> on that box?
[05:36] <holstein> it would be interesting to just double check all the hardware
[05:36] <toenail> well not really check mail ect. and after i did a restart i tried the pod and worked said sweet but nw its like f|_|ck ou ha
[05:36] <holstein> with another OS
[05:37] <holstein> a trusted good setup for you
[05:37] <toenail> yea my other box has ubuntu 9.04 i think, tried upgrading to 10.4 but was being retarted crashed . its a dell ha
[05:38] <toenail> and the other box doesnt have a Fw card
[05:38] <holstein> :/
[05:38] <holstein> i really dont think its a kernel issue
[05:38] <holstein> hmmmm
[05:39] <toenail> that would make sense so i reboot and try the ther one in the list corect?
[05:40] <toenail> correct*
[05:40] <holstein> yeah, but i think you'll just have the one
[05:40] <toenail> yea i reakon to
[05:40] <holstein> 2.6.35-22-generic
[05:41] <holstein> could be that VIA chip
[05:41] <holstein> i remember fussing around for a long time
[05:41] <holstein> til i got a couple friendly chipsets
[05:41] <holstein> one is a VIA though
[05:41] <holstein> one that i have
[05:41] <holstein> its not bad
[05:42] <toenail> yea i think i need a better card one that doesnt feel like a ht dog in a hallway when i plug the firewire in
[05:42] <holstein> toenail: mabye try #ffado
[05:43] <holstein> toenail: OH yeah
[05:43] <holstein> the cards ins are loose?
[05:43] <holstein> not the ones on the firepod?
[05:43] <toenail> one thing i did noticed that chaged was the buffer from 2 to 3 without me doing a thing well updates thats about it
[05:44] <holstein> toenail: buffer at 2 or 3 should be fine
[05:44] <toenail> the cards yes but it was the same when i got it working with ya
[05:44] <toenail> ok whats the ffado
[05:44] <holstein> the ffado guys write these drivers
[05:44] <holstein> the firewire and the older freebob drivers
[05:44] <toenail> oh derrr a channel
[05:45] <holstein> the #ffado channel is sloooow
[05:45] <holstein> but the mailing list is good
[05:45] <holstein> IF you get stuck here
[05:46] <holstein> im still thinking its the 'hotdog in the hallway'
[05:46] <holstein> lol
[05:46] <toenail> yea me to but i jiggled it when i hit start on jack
[05:47] <toenail> there might bean internal port let me look
[05:48] <toenail> might be nice and tight ha
[05:48] <toenail> yea it just fell out as i moved the case foreward
[05:49] <toenail> foreword*
[05:49] <holstein> not good
[05:49] <holstein> well, not ideal
[05:50] <toenail> got a internal plugged in tryin jack now
[05:50] <toenail> nope the same
[05:51] <holstein> try changing those settings under 'interface'
[05:51] <toenail> nevermind i turned the pod off and on and it worked its a sh17 card
[05:52] <holstein> toenail: w00t
[05:52] <holstein> thats great
[05:52] <holstein> now you know
[05:52] <holstein> and you can just use that internal port i bet
[05:52] <toenail> yea damn newegg cheap cards
[05:52] <holstein> if you got a PCI card slot empty :)
[05:53] <toenail> yea
[05:53] <toenail> i do
[05:54] <toenail> yatzi
[05:54] <holstein> word :)
[05:57] <toenail> i feel like a dumbie but oh well i guess i dont always practice what i preach
[05:58] <toenail> or rather didn't think that would be a problem
[05:59] <holstein> hey, now you know
[05:59] <holstein> and you can quit messing around with software fixes
[05:59] <holstein> toenail: you can undo that grub change if you want
[05:59] <holstein> nothing wrong with leaving it as-is though
[06:00] <holstein> you just go in and get rid of that # you put in
[06:00] <holstein> and run sudo update-grub again
[06:00] <holstein> you have to manually run update-grub when you mess with that file
[06:00] <holstein> if you get a kernel update
[06:00] <holstein> you can watch that happen in the terminal automatically
[06:01] <holstein> the little '#' is called 'commenting it out'
[06:01] <holstein> you put one of those #'s, and whatever is after that on that line
[06:01] <holstein> gets ignored
[06:01] <holstein> hmmm
[06:01] <holstein> TMI ;)
[06:03] <toenail> that was weird the box just pulled a windows move (crashed)
[06:03] <toenail> pod woks though
[06:03] <toenail> works*
[06:04] <toenail> oh nevermind back to this again
[06:04] <holstein> OH
[06:04] <holstein> could be overheating
[06:04] <holstein> sounds like you got some hardware trouble-shooting to do
[06:05] <toenail> the old on and off worked . ive only had it on for an hour or more
[06:05] <toenail> its good now ; maybe well then again i tried that so nevermind
[06:06] <holstein> sometimes pet hair or dust gets around the CPU
[06:06] <holstein> and it doenst take long to shutdown
[06:07] <toenail> very true i remeber i had a power supply that would work  took its a part dust full clean with water et it dry for 2 days and put it back in the box an wala it worked
[06:07] <holstein> nice :)
[06:07] <holstein> i got a couple dead laptops im trying to figure out here
[06:07] <holstein> one of them does that
[06:07] <holstein> overheats
[06:07] <toenail> that was back when i had a amd k6-2 450mhz
[06:07] <holstein> and shuts off
[06:08] <holstein> im going to have to take it apart i guess :/
[06:08] <toenail> might be jumper settings on the board maybe its overclocked
[06:08] <holstein> that could warm it up a bit
[06:08] <toenail> before you got it maybe ?
[06:09] <holstein> i dont think anybody got in there
[06:09] <holstein> and did anything with it
[06:09] <holstein> BUT i'll find out ;)
[06:09] <toenail> oh, ive had ram that did that before wellnot overheating but after a while just shutting the machine down
[06:09] <holstein> well, im going to get horizontal...
[06:10] <holstein> toenail: good luck :)
[06:10] <toenail> yea i did originally come in hear to ask you how to work with adour but if you got stuff to do some other time will work or ill fish around with it
[06:11] <holstein> OH
[06:11] <holstein> if you get a particular question
[06:11] <toenail> oh horizontal yea im slow thats fine ill fish around for the next half or so dont worry about it you've done alot to save me from being pissed
[06:11] <holstein> shout it out in #opensourcemusicians
[06:11] <holstein> ardour can be quite daunting at first
[06:12] <holstein> quite full featured though
[06:12] <holstein> worth it, i say :)
[06:12] <toenail> yea that works thanks again for your help sorry i didnt come to the hot dog in the hallway being an issue thanks again
[06:12] <toenail> ill look into it
[06:12] <holstein> anytime
[06:13] <toenail> be well
[10:22] <obengdako> help rhythmbox banshee and totem won't play through pulseaudio unless i'm using jack-pulse and gstreamer settings are fine to use pulseaudio but only these apps don't work they work if i kill pulseaudio then they probably use alsa
[23:36] <toe_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/529644/
[23:37] <holstein> toe_: whats the issue?
[23:38] <holstein> you might just have to relax the settings a bit
[23:38] <holstein> with that kernel and the pod
[23:38] <holstein> mabye 512/3
[23:39] <holstein> xruns are bad :/
[23:39] <holstein> sometimes i get one when i start an app
[23:39] <holstein> BUT usually, i dont have any at all


[06:42] <mapppaDE> Hi all;(
[06:42] <mapppaDE> Had internet for a week ans then no more
[10:11] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[10:21] <directhex> is it? :(
[10:23] <brobostigon> morning? yes, 10:22am.
[11:34] <diddledan_> lol: https://twitter.com/mark_azevedo/status/657600892842082306
[11:36] <diddledan_> then of course there's MS employees leaking classified documents at tech conferences: https://twitter.com/andrerav/status/658645629208522752
[12:12] <ali1234> if yesterday was 0xdfec and today is 0xdfed, what's the date encoding?
[12:13] <ali1234> i'm pretty sure it's not "days since 10th october 1858"
[12:16] <DJones> Anybody know any programmers with Delphi experience + other languages that are looking for a job based in the north west, just been asked by our IT support if I knew anybody
[12:20] <zmoylan-pi> delphi, a civilised ide for more civilised times... :-)
[12:22] <directhex> because everybody loves object pascal!
[12:23] <zmoylan-pi> it kept away the visual basic programmers... :-P
[12:47] <awilkins> DJones ; I know the CEO of e-say has some Delphi experience but they're a contractor
[12:47] <awilkins> And you're not here either
[12:48] <zmoylan-pi> maybe an advert on myspace... :-)
[13:11] <diddledan_> seriously freaky - last night I couldn't get the song "englishman in new york" aka "I'm an alien" out of my head. Just popped into currys and the first song they played while I was there was that one!
[13:12] <zmoylan-pi> co ink a dink
[13:14] <TwistedLucidity> diddledan_: You can see the future! Quick, what are this weekend's Lotto numbers?
[13:14] <zmoylan-pi> pi, iota....
[20:49] <mapps> yay i have internet again
[20:50] <daftykins> again again!?
[20:51] <mapps> well it broke and they took ages to fix
[20:51] <mapps> :(
[20:51] <daftykins> O_O
[20:55] <mapps> had it ainstalled 13th october worked for a week then stopped
[20:57] <Renfried> who is your isp?
[20:58] <mapps> u-mee
[20:58] <mapps> not in the uk anymore;p
[20:59] <Renfried> never heard of it
[21:02] <mapps> yea
[21:02] <mapps> because its not uk
[21:02] <mapps> :P
[21:02] <mapps> u-mee.com
[21:05] <Renfried> ahh argentina ;)
[21:09] <mapps> nopep
[21:10] <mapps> gibraltar
[21:16] <Renfried> quiet channel for so many people here
[21:16] <daftykins> it's Friday night.
[21:16] <daftykins> was just pondering going to the pub, myself
[21:17] <Renfried> back in the day nerds and geeks didnt go out at all :)
[21:17] <Renfried> they left that to the cool kids
[21:33] <daftykins> mapps: so what's new?
[21:35] <Renfried> I am using an acer i5-m450 laptop. If I used a Dual core 1.6Ghz desktop, both with 4Gb ram, would i notice a major speed difference? (good or bad)
[21:37] <daftykins> well "1.6GHz desktop" doesn't mean much compared to a first gen i5, since we don't know what generation of processor it is
[21:38] <zmoylan-pi> and these days if one is using a hard disk and one is using an ssd?
[21:39] <Renfried> i have no idea what gen it is, all I know is Intel dual core 1.6GHz.... I was offered a desktop, but have not seen it. It currently has windows 7 on it, I would imagine it is fairly old
[21:39] <daftykins> yeah that'd be no comparison too :)
[21:39] <mapps> not much daftykins;)
[21:39] <mapps> same job same place
[21:39] <daftykins> :)
[21:39] <Renfried> both would use hard disk, neither has ssd
[21:39] <daftykins> Renfried: would need a quick spec check then really.
[21:39] <mapps> Renfried would be enough for xubuntu
[21:39] <daftykins> Renfried: it coming into your hands for free?
[21:40] <Renfried> cheap.... about £50. for free I would just take it and try it :)
[21:40] <daftykins> to be honest something with that clock speed in a desktop is a slight oddity
[21:41] <Renfried> I am using mate, so would need to run that, otherwise it wont get used
[21:41] <daftykins> so a small alarm bell is ringing to me
[21:41] <Renfried> whats wrong with the clock speed?
[21:42] <daftykins> it's an indication of age
[21:43] <daftykins> what i'm getting at is if it's a 1.6GHz Pentium 4 someone has windows 7 on, i'd leave it where it is :)
[21:44] <Renfried> yeah i would too.
[21:45] <Renfried> but a dual core 1.6 is the recommended specs for mate
[21:46] <Renfried> but just wondering if it would be that much slower than my i5.....my clock speed is 1.8 with 2.4 in burst mode
[21:46] <daftykins> but being a P4 (just as an example, i know it's a guess) would hint at really terrible RAM and an old PATA slow disk
[21:46] <daftykins> so you'd need more detail to make an informed decision
[21:50] <Renfried> it has everything but speakers, so may even be worth it for a cheap monitor and spare parts
[21:51] <daftykins> perhaps, though spare parts not even compatible with what you have now if they're too far apart age wise
[21:52] <daftykins> if it's something easy like a Dell, you could look up the service tag for a detailed spec
[21:52] <daftykins> or just query the BIOS.
[21:52] <ali1234> i wouldn't touch anything that's not i5 quad core or above
[21:54] <Renfried> I want to stick away from intel intergrated graphics, as the one on this laptop is terrible.
[21:55] <Renfried> ali1234: Depends on what you use it for I suppose. I would love a new laptop but funds are not there. So a cheap desktop that I can upgrade bit by bit may be the way to go
[21:55] <ali1234> no you want intel graphics on a laptop. dual graphics set ups are a pain
[21:56] <ali1234> you can get a decent thinkpad for around £100 if you shop around
[21:57] <Renfried> the only game i want to play it cities skylines, but doesnt support intel graphics.
[21:57] <ali1234> dont buy a laptop for gaming
[21:57] <Renfried> define decent
[21:57] <ali1234> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lenovo-Thinkpad-x220-Laptop-Core-i5-2520-4Gb-160GB-USB-3-0-Webcam-/321901360957?hash=item4af2d0f73d:g:CxgAAOSwl9BWKqMl
[21:59] <Renfried> thats not a bad option, although one dealbreaker, no numeric keypad...
[21:59] <ali1234> use numlock
[22:00] <Renfried> U sed to have a thinkpad t42, and hated numlock
[22:00] <daftykins> no there's nothing wrong with intel graphics, it's just the age of your current system
[22:01] <Renfried> my laptop is only about 3-4 years old
[22:01] <ali1234> cities skylines is known to not work on intel tho
[22:01] <daftykins> the first gen core i5 one? it's rubbish.
[22:01] <daftykins> (the graphics)
[22:01] <Renfried> i think it as Intel HD3000 graphics
[22:04] <daftykins> i thought you said you had a core i5 450M
[22:04] <daftykins> http://ark.intel.com/products/49022/Intel-Core-i5-450M-Processor-3M-cache-2_40-GHz
[22:05] <daftykins> first gen HD graphics = terribad :)
[22:09] <Renfried> am sure it is core i5 450M, it is an acer aspire 5742 laptop
[22:14] <Renfried> says i5 m450 when i check
[22:14] <Renfried> cant get it to name the hd3000, cat remember how i did it before, just saying intergated graphics
[22:15] <Ildera> Hi, I'm looking to get my hands on a 14.04 LTS pressed dvd, but having some difficulty.
[22:16] <daftykins> Renfried: are you typing from it right now?
[22:16] <daftykins> Renfried: grep model /proc/cpuinfo
[22:16] <daftykins> Ildera: how come you need one?
[22:18] <Ildera> It's for my 92 year old grandmother, I really don't want to have to explain to her how to install from a usb stick, and pressed discs have a longer lifespan than burnt ones.
[22:22] <Ildera> I do realise it's rather a 1995 sort of problem, but this is what happens when you're 92
[22:23] <Renfried> daftykins: yes Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU       M 450  @ 2.40GHz
[22:24] <daftykins> yep so rubbish graphics
[22:24] <daftykins> i'd not ask more than a working desktop of that generation
[22:25] <daftykins> can anyone confirm you need a sky subscription card to make use of recording on a sky+ box?
[22:26] <daftykins> thus be paying the evil company some money? :)
[22:26] <daftykins> my folks are thinking of buying a box from someone but i think it's a mistake as they won't be able to record for free.
[22:29] <Renfried> i am sure you do need a sky+ subscription to record
[22:30] <Renfried> you can use it a freesat box without, just not record, best to buy a freeview dvr
[22:31] <daftykins> *nod* thought the same, thanks :)
[22:31] <daftykins> probably best they get a freesat HD box, not sure we can get it down here mind
[22:31] <Renfried> where are you?
[22:32] <daftykins> Channel Islands
[22:33] <Renfried> if you can get normal TV reception you should be able to get freeview, just not sure about HD
[22:34] <Renfried> teach them how to torrent :)
[22:34] <daftykins> hell to the no!
[22:34] <daftykins> well freesat is via the satellite dish, but the cone of influence from the beam tends to ignore us for most channels
[22:35] <daftykins> actually i think a mate said they can get all the channels on freesat and i got a tonne when i tried it out on my TV (which has freesat built in)
[22:35] <daftykins> they're never gonna pay for a box though
[22:36] <Renfried> i have BB with sky, not bad fibre connection 40Mb down and 10Mb up
[22:37] <daftykins> we have our own telcos with monopolies down here
[22:37] <daftykins> still 40/5 VDSL2 though \o/
[22:37] <daftykins> btw that's VDSL2 as well, not fibre :) just marketed as such to sound futuristic
[22:38] <Renfried> i could go 200Mb with virgin, but they throttle
[22:40] <Renfried> they class it as fibre to the cabinet (FTTC) but yeah, all openreach is the same,
[22:42] <Renfried> for someone who started with a 2400 baud modem, call it what you will, as long as it is 40/10 i am happy
[22:42] <daftykins> :)
[22:42] <daftykins> yeah does me well
[22:42] <daftykins> a local secondary telco has just installed a direct fiber feed to their managing director's home, lucky swine
[22:43] <zmoylan-pi> i started with a 2400 baud modem but spent most of the 90s using it in bell 103 mode at 300bps...
[22:47] <Renfried> i then went to a suprafax 14.4k, then a mightly udrobotics 56k.....1.5KB download speed, could download a full amiga 700k disk in 30 minutes.....lightning fast
[22:47] <Renfried> *usrobotics
[22:48] <Renfried> i could upgrade my fibre to 80 down and 20 up, but no need. never needed more than i have
[22:48] <daftykins> back shortly, gonna grab a pint next door i think
[22:51] <zmoylan-pi> and file transfer protocol was just moving away from kermit to xmodem...
[22:55] <zmoylan-pi> then xmodem (crc) for error checking, ymodem for multiple files and then the holy grail of zmodem for resuming after interrupted file transfers :-)
[23:09] <diddledan_> back on dialup I used getright a LOT
[23:09] <diddledan_> and it seems to still exist: http://getright.com/
[23:09] <diddledan_> with a terrible website :-p
[23:15] <zmoylan-pi> very 90s...
[23:37] <Renfried> i used z and ymodem from memory
[23:38] <zmoylan-pi> i thought i'd use ymodem more when i discovered it could transfer a bunch of files but by then i was already using pak and then pkzip to compress all the files into one small file
[23:39] <Renfried> i still have my usrobotics modem somewhere.... i am sure dialup isps must exist somewhere still...
[23:40] <zmoylan-pi> i have a battery powered 9600 baud fax modem here i couldn't bring myself to throw out... :-)
[23:41] <Renfried> I also have a commodore 64 with the 1571 diskdrive that sounds like a couple of woodpeckers mating when you loaded something
[23:42] <Renfried> or was it 1541.... cant remember
[23:43] <Renfried> and an amiga 500. havnt used them in 20 years, but still have them
[23:43] <zmoylan-pi> i still remember poke 808,251 for c64 to disable run stop... :-)
[23:43] <Renfried> 10 Print "Hello World"
[23:43] <Renfried> 20 GOTO 10
[23:44] <zmoylan-pi> and in a local shop the c64 power button was blocked by the counter it was sunk into so they couldn't stop the scolling message
[23:44] <zmoylan-pi> but in out case it was 10 print "wardy is a leper ";
[23:45] <zmoylan-pi> poor sod had terminal acne
[23:48] <Renfried> lol


[00:23]  * cwillu_at_work pokes at rcn-ee
[00:24] <rcn-ee> how's it going cwillu_at_work
[00:25] <cwillu_at_work> building my debs in qemu as we speak becuase _somebody_ didn't build it for me :p
[00:25] <ojn> qemu? painful.
[00:25] <rcn-ee> well that's the proper way, no cross compiling allowed! ;)
[00:26] <cwillu_at_work> what's the slow down in comparison to doing it native?
[00:26] <cwillu_at_work> I was figuring that 2gb of ram + quad cores at 2.6ghz is faster at playing arm than an arm is
[00:26] <ojn> pretty bad last time I compared (native freescale vs qemu on nehalem). Don't remember exactly how many times slower qemu was though.
[00:27] <rcn-ee> man it's been a long time, but i think it took like 6 hours on my old x2 4200 to build 2.6.27 where the beagle did it in like 3... haven't used qemu since.. ;)
[00:27] <cwillu_at_work> maybe I'll race them next time
[00:27] <ojn> been toying some with scratchbox2 here. it's not entirely pain free either (especially when you realize you need another package installed), but performance is reasonable
[00:28] <rcn-ee> cwillu_at_work, qemu is also not very good with multicores, so maybe two-three qemu sessions with distcc to share the compile.. ;)
[00:31]  * cwillu_at_work nearly resists the urge to say "meh, I get paid by the hour" :p
[00:33] <ojn> if you're going to distcc then you might as well distcc out to a native cross compiler
[00:33] <ojn> that'd be better/faster/easier
[00:33] <cwillu_at_work> that actually sounds sane
[00:36] <ojn> what would be nice is if there was a shipped version of the cross toolchain for x86{,_64} that was built from the same sources as the native arm toolchain, just to be bug compatible with native builds.
[00:37] <ojn> any plans on providing that, canonicalites?
[00:37] <rcn-ee> i just want to get a setup like a guy on the beagleboard group email is building, a 13U server with 44+ beagles...
[00:37] <ojn> rcn-ee: why would anyone want that?
[00:38] <rcn-ee> take on the top500? ;)  not sure, but he's doing it..
[00:39] <rcn-ee> Eric Fung here: http://groups.google.com/group/beagleboard/browse_thread/thread/f5f14f4ec66ab45d/df03479bf1ca0861?lnk=gst&q=44#df03479bf1ca0861
[00:39] <ojn> Haha. the beagles aren't exactly fast. sounds like a good way to burn 5000 dollars to me.
[00:41] <rcn-ee> since they are backordered he will be getting the new 720Mhz ones..  But otherwise it's hard to find cheap cortex-a8 boards...
[00:41] <ojn> oh, he uses them for industrial automation? still, sounds odd not to do something more monolithic.
[00:41] <cwillu_at_work> rcn-ee, is that why we can't buy beagleboards these days? :p
[00:41] <ojn> rcn-ee: I prefer my cortex a8's to be able to cache clean data in l2. 3430/3530 can't. pretty amazing actually.
[00:42] <rcn-ee> the dvi/video chip is very hard to get right now.. So the boards can't be finished for sale...
[00:42]  * ojn heads to dinner.
[00:43] <rcn-ee> ojn, yeah, the cortex-a8 in the beagle has a couple bad bugs, my chroot is puking on every lucid update right now... :(
[00:43] <ojn> rcn-ee: it's got the thumb2 bug but the ubuntu toolchain should have the workaround for it. i don't know if it's enabled though?
[00:43] <ojn> s/the thumb2 bug/the thumb2 branch bug/
[00:44] <ojn> might be fixed in the new ones, not sure.
[00:47] <rcn-ee> yeah, i think it's that one.. although my quick gcc compare didn't show too much damage.. thumb: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-testresults/2009-11/msg02447.html and nonthumb: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-testresults/2009-11/msg02538.html
[04:23]  * zooko reads https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mobile/ARMv7AndThumb
[04:30] <zooko> Is it publicly known who are the hardware makers working with Canonical on ARM devices?
[04:35] <ojn> Marvell and Freescale make the boards that are officially supported, if that's what you mean?
[04:36] <zooko> I meant the story that Canonical is working with makers of netbooks./
[04:36] <zooko> I suppose which makers is secret.
[04:37] <zooko> Or maybe I'm supposed to call them smartbooks if they are ARM based.
[04:37] <zooko> By the way, I'm also really interested in ARM-based servers.  Hard to find.
[04:37] <ojn> Oh. Yeah, I don't think they've talked publically about that
[04:37] <zooko> http://perspectives.mvdirona.com/2009/11/30/2010TheYearOfMicroSliceServers.aspx
[04:38] <ojn> there aren't many arm based servers, no. smooth-stone are supposedly working on something but I'd expect silicon product to be years away from mass production
[10:12] <ogra> fta, it means that the default is supposed to change, but that gcc version doesnt have the change yet (it's supposed to happen with the next upload of gcc)
[10:45] <fta> ogra, ok, thanks. that sentence is just confusing then.
[10:47] <ogra> its a wiki, feel free to fix ;)
[11:22] <ogra> dmart, you rock !
[11:22]  * ogra does a testbuild of glib
[11:22] <dmart> -er- not yet, I've just been looking at the compiler output... __sync_synchronize() compiles away to nothing :(
[11:24] <dmart> We're looking into this, but I might suggest using a slightly different patch using __sync_lock_test_and_set() and __sync_lock_release().  This will be cleaner example for people to copy, and avoids the explicit __sync_synchronize() call.
[11:25] <dmart> Shall I just supply another patch on top of the old one?  The code will build as-is and work on Cortex-A8, so we have no immediate problem.
[12:33] <ogra> dmart, hmm, i have some prob with your patch ...
[12:33] <ogra> it succeeded with offset, i triggered a build but failed ... looking closer i see that:
[12:33] <ogra> patching file glib/gatomic.c
[12:33] <ogra> patching file configure.in
[12:33] <ogra> Hunk #1 succeeded at 2491 (offset 11 lines).
[12:33] <ogra> root@babbage2:/glib2.0-2.23.0# wc -l  glib/gatomic.c
[12:33] <ogra> 1089 glib/gatomic.c
[12:34] <ogra> did you patch the actual latest lucid upload ?
[12:34] <ogra> or a former source
[12:35] <dmart> It was against 2.22.2.  Do source packages not appear in the archive until a successful binary build has been uploaded?
[12:36] <ogra> they do, did you apt-get update before apt-get source  ?
[12:36] <ogra> 2.23.0 here
[12:36] <dmart> Hmmm, possibly not.  I'll try again
[12:37] <dmart> Is it more conveinent to provide a patch which applies on top of the patch stack in debian/patches, or against the original files (which is what I gave you before)?
[12:38] <ogra> both is fine
[12:38] <dmart> OK, now 2.23.0-1ubuntu1
[12:38] <dmart> Is the build log for your failure visible on launchpad?
[12:38] <ogra> do as you like it most, someone needs to touch the package anyway for sponsoring the upload
[12:39] <dmart> OK... I'll attach a new patch to the bug when I've sorted it out.
[12:39] <ogra> (its indeed less work if the patch is on top of the stack but doesnt make a big difference)
[12:41] <asac> ogra: whats the prob?
[12:42] <asac> configure.in problem?
[12:42] <ogra> asac, the build fails with the same error due to the patch being for the karmic version
[12:42] <asac> well.
[12:42] <asac> but that cant be a big problem
[12:42] <asac> its just confiugre.in, right?
[12:42] <ogra> yes
[12:43] <asac> ogra: it applies ... sure you ran autoconf?
[12:43] <ogra> doesnt debian/rules do that ?
[12:44] <ogra> hmm, seems not
[12:44] <asac> no
[12:44] <asac> gnome packages dont do that
[12:44] <asac> you have to do a patch
[12:45] <ogra> i thought they usually use some autoreconf.mk thingie
[12:45] <lool> No
[12:45] <asac> no
[12:45] <ogra> ok
[12:45] <asac> thats dirty anyway
[12:46] <ogra> i know but i thought i saw that before in gnome packages
[12:46] <asac> ogra: just remove the if stuff etc al
[12:46] <asac> ogra: those are not real gnome packages then ;)
[12:46] <asac> anyway
[12:47] <asac> http://people.canonical.com/~asac/tmp/70_glib2.0-gatomic-arm.patch
[12:47] <asac> ogra:
[12:47] <asac> use that
[12:47] <asac> and ignore the confiugre stuff
[12:48] <ogra> oki
[12:48] <asac> has a hacked "define ..." obviously not for upstream, but beter than doing the full configure thing in package
[12:48] <ogra> yeah
[12:49] <asac> dmart: so no need to update it to lucid version from what i see. should be ok as it is for now ;)
[12:51] <dmart> ^ I had to rerun autoconf, but I didn't publish a patch for configure itself, because it came out half a MB smaller than before, which I found a bit scary
[12:52] <dmart> Do you need an extra patch from me?
[12:52] <dmart> ogra, asac, do you need an extra patch, or are you OK for now?
[12:52] <asac> no all fine. thanks a lot
[12:52] <asac> once we know we let you know ;)
[12:53] <ogra> got past gatomic.c/o
[12:53] <asac> very good ;)
[12:53] <ogra> so seems all fine
[12:53] <ogra> i'll let it finish
[12:53] <dmart> Is it usual to upstream things like this, and what would the timescale be?
[12:54] <ogra> heh, depends on the upstream i guess
[12:54] <asac> dmart: real quick if there are no questions etc.
[12:54] <asac> (for glib)
[12:54] <dmart> Yeah, of course
[12:54] <ogra> yeah, glib should be fast
[12:55] <dmart> Note that we need to patch gcc to work round an issue with the implementation of the atomics; then glib2.0 should be rebuilt.  But the problems will only emerge on multi-core, so this isn't so urgent.
[12:56] <ogra> right, our main focus atm is to get all packages building for alpha1
[12:56] <dmart> agreed
[12:57] <ogra> if we have packages with temp workarounds we need to touch later again, we should collect them somewhere though
[12:57] <dmart> I'll upload another patch to tidy up the implementation a bit more in gatomic.  Since this will serve as an example for other packages, I'd like to get this one as clear as possible.
[12:58] <dmart> orga, is the ARM/Thumb2 page the right place for that?
[12:59] <ogra> yeah, probably a package section at the bottom would make sense
[13:26] <asac> we should keep a bug open so we remember to rebuild glib etc. after the intrinsics are fixed
[13:26] <asac> dmart: ogra: ^
[13:27] <dmart> asac, ogra: I'm raising a bug on GCC to track this; we can reference it from the existing glib2.0 bug?
[13:28] <asac> dmart: unfortuantely we can only dupe stuff (which isnt right here)
[13:28] <asac> dmart: i would suggest to add a new bug to GCC
[13:28] <asac> and then add the packages we identified as targets
[13:28] <asac> so after filing the gcc bug, click on "also affects distributioN" ... and select glib2.0 there for now
[13:29] <asac> then drop a comment that glib is affected blah blah blah and reference the other bug in the comment for background info
[13:33] <dmart> ogra, asac: Raised: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/glib2.0/+bug/491872
[13:33] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 491872 in glib2.0 "[armel] Atomic intrinsics are not implemented correctly" [Undecided,New]
[13:35] <dmart> I've added a note to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/glib2.0/+bug/491342
[13:35] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 491342 in glib2.0 "assembly fails to build on armel/lucid " [Critical,Triaged]
[15:18] <ojn> ogra: did you see my question from last night? I.e. are there any plans on providing an x86-hosted arm crosstoolchain built with the same options/from the same sources as a deb?
[15:18] <ojn> (main use for me would be to use it for distcc:ing across to a faster machine)
[16:31] <fta2> asac, did you retry chromium?
[16:54] <armin76> asac: whats the status on chromium? did it build?
[16:58] <fta2> it should, but i don't have access to any arm builder
[17:14] <asac> copying now
[17:15] <asac> just lucid though
[17:15] <asac> copyied
[18:33] <fta> asac, sure, no need to even try karmic unless i enforce armv7
[18:34] <ogra> (karmic is v6 and no thumb)
[18:35] <fta> ogra, yep, what i meant is upstream only supports v7, at least until someone ports it to something else
[18:36] <ogra> ah, well ...
[18:36] <fta> thumb doesn't seem to be required though
[18:36] <ogra> i think we'Re the only distro building with thumb2 atm
[18:36] <ogra> not even angstrom (beagleboard default distro and highly optimized) does use thumb
[18:38] <ogra> given that ubuntu runs on beagle with an externally maintained kernel it will be very intresting if lucid runs faster than angstrom on the beagle
[18:39] <ogra> roumors say up to 30% size reduction and up to 30% speedup is possible through thumb2
[18:40] <asac> fta: the problem for non-armv7 was broken assembly?
[20:30] <lool> maemo used to have thumb1 support, not sure whether they are using thum2 now
[20:54] <fta> asac, apparently, it's supposed to work even on armv5. but as they don't have an arm buildbot yet, it probably diverged a bit and needs fixes
[22:01] <fta> asac, when built for android, v8 build system adds a bunch of flags, incl -march=armv5te & -mthumb-interwork


[17:16] <thorwil> kwwii: hi! i told Matthew that your prefer row 2 of the get_ubuntu banners and that's what he will go with (also since he likes the embossed spiral dots :). plan is to put them in place 2 weeks after launch
[17:24]  * thorwil -> dinner
[17:55] <thorwil> plop
[18:09] <thorwil> =8-[]  https://launchpadlibrarian.net/16279896/logoSUlight.png
[18:47] <kwwii> thorwil: cool, sounds good :-)
[18:47] <kwwii> thorwil: he should just listen to us :p
[18:47] <thorwil> heh
[19:22]  * thorwil recommends "A sad sad song" from http://www.blender.org/community/blender-conference/festival/