[08:14] <chu> Just noticed in #ubuntu - MazetteBot<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[08:14] <chu> Not sure if an IRC bot or anything though. Could just be me not knowing French.
[11:00] <Phanes> hey there.  more retaliation from ikonia
[11:00] <Phanes> i've got logs
[11:00] <ikonia> hello Phanes I'm just documenting why I've banned you
[11:01] <ikonia> I'll also do so here so it's logged
[11:01] <ikonia> then I'll step away and you can resolve it (or not) with another operator
[11:02] <Phanes> he was abusive to a user last night that was having trouble viewing pdf's, he misinformed the user saying that they were using the wrong distro version.  i came in last night and apologized for his behaviour and resolved the user's issue (decrypted the blank pass pdf's).  Then today was telling same user that using a lighter DE would not free up resources on an older system, had to correct it.  Result:  ban.
[11:02] <Phanes> yes this needs resolved with another operator and you need to be removed
[11:02] <ikonia> Phanes: ubuntu is logged
[11:02] <ikonia> a.) I did not say he was using the wrong distro
[11:02] <Phanes> i have the logs
[11:02] <Phanes> you are lying
[11:03] <ikonia> b.) I had already fixed his problem a different way than you did (which was a great fix by the way)
[11:03] <Phanes> no you didn't
[11:03] <ikonia> c.) I had not "left" I was still active
[11:03] <Phanes> he was still having the issue
[11:03] <ikonia> yes, because he had no followed the instructions I'd given him
[11:03] <Phanes> the instructions you were giving were wrong and did not fix the issue
[11:03] <ikonia> however the reason I've just banned you
[11:03] <ikonia> is you are trying to use this false information as "leverage"
[11:03] <Phanes> twice in the last 24 hours you have misinformed users, one of which was while berating them for not following your broken instructions
[11:04] <ikonia> I'm going to paste what you sent me in a pm for the log if thats ok ?
[11:04] <Phanes> its not false information and this will become quite clear as soon as someone is intervening
[11:04] <Phanes> and at the end of this i want you to be removed
[11:04] <ikonia> is that ok ?
[11:04] <k1l> Phanes: the discussion today was not if a more lightweight DE will free up resources but about that even with a lighter DE there still would be issues like video encoding making use of the cpu because the gpu doesnt support it. that was one of the main reasons, why even a lighter DE would not help since the issue is on other bottlenecks.
[11:04] <ikonia> k1l: one moment please
[11:05] <ikonia> I'd like to get confirmation to paste the pm you've just sent me in reference to ubuntu
[11:05] <ikonia> Phanes: is that ok to paste that ?
[11:06] <Phanes> k1l, i agree with that but that's not what was being said
[11:06] <ikonia> Phanes: is it ok if I paste the pm you've sent me into the log
[11:06] <Phanes> ikonia, all of the pm's i've sent you for the last six months are here: http://dpaste.com/27DD7GX
[11:07] <k1l> Phanes: i agree with the advices from several helpers in #ubuntu not to blindly install several different DEs, when its not going to help on the main issues.
[11:07] <Phanes> blacklisting is -not- tolerated in this community and i want someone to remove this person
[11:07] <ikonia> Phanes: while that is not true totally as you've also used other nicknames, the key but I'm referncing is the last few lines
[11:07] <Phanes> k1l, there's nothing wrong with adding new de's to a machine, it doesn't break anything and a fluxbox is way less load than gnome
[11:08] <Phanes> or even lxde
[11:08] <Phanes> to say otherwise is misinforming a user
[11:08] <Phanes> i called it out in an appropriate tone
[11:08] <ikonia> where you appear to to suggest that "this is not going to work out" and "truce" where you seem to be trying to engineer situations in ubuntu that are not happening to get me to levarage against me
[11:08] <ikonia> I'm in the process of documenting this fully,
[11:08] <Phanes> ikonia, no one is 'engineering' anything, you're just a bad op
[11:09] <Phanes> you give wrong advice to the users
[11:09] <Phanes> sometimes you're abusive to them
[11:09] <Phanes> and you blacklist people who you think would call you out on it
[11:09] <Phanes> and i've got better logs to prove this
[11:10] <Phanes> this is it.  how this goes from here is determined by how much character you display in owning up to it
[11:10] <ikonia> so in this situation I've put a ban on you in this channel, (and I could be worng on this which is why I'll be happy to step away) as I believe you are using ubuntu to try to leverage a position where you are making threats to "do things" then raise false information and say "truce"
[11:10] <ikonia> I'm not comfortable with ubuntu being used this way
[11:10] <Phanes> it's not false information
[11:10] <Phanes> do you deny that you told the user last night that the reason he was not able to open pdfs was because he was on 16.10 and not 16.04?
[11:10] <ikonia> I'm more than happy for the ban to be removed with my apologies on this if I'm wrong, however, I'd like someone else to look at your whole overall "campaign" and threats
[11:11] <ikonia> Phanes: I deny that %100
[11:11] <Phanes> ok.  if i provide logs that directly refute that from the public #ubuntu channel, will you remove yourself as an operator?
[11:11] <ikonia> I will now step away and allow you to work this through with the others without interaction from me
[11:11] <ikonia> !logs
[11:13] <Phanes> ikonia, ?  will you be removing your ops status if those same logs prove what I am saying?
[11:13] <ikonia> not at all
[11:13] <ikonia> people are human and wrong
[11:14] <Phanes> no, this is not wrong versus right, this is lying versus telling the truth
[11:14] <Phanes> there is a code of conduct
[11:14] <Phanes> you are violating it
[11:14] <Phanes> i want you out
[11:14] <ikonia> there is a code of conduct and I do my best to stick to it
[11:14] <ikonia> I appreciate you want me out
[11:14] <Phanes> you are intentionally violating it and abusing your status to carry out a personal vendetta
[11:14] <k1l> !appeal
[11:14] <ikonia> which is why I think you are generating a situation, and keep sending me messages with threats and then "truce"
[11:15] <Phanes> all comms in the last six months: http://dpaste.com/27DD7GX
[11:15] <ikonia> I'm more than happy to have this ban removed as I've said if I've overracted with my apologies, but your behaviour and constant "truce" messages leads me to believe ubuntu should not be used this way
[11:15] <Phanes> that is also a lie
[11:15] <Phanes> no, you did engage in blacklisting in #lfs and now you're trying to move it to #ubuntu just as I told these guys you would
[11:16] <k1l> Phanes: i guess best is to make an appeal to the ircc. since its not the first time there are issues with you and the channel guidelines. the ircc is the community commitee running the irc channels.
[11:16] <Phanes> you can't just wake up and go 'im going to remove this guy from all the places i have influence' and expect there to be no repurcussions
[11:16] <Phanes> you are creating unnecessary rivalries and animosity and you are using the ubuntu community as a platform to do this
[11:16] <Phanes> and i want this guy removed
[11:16] <ikonia> I am creating no rivalry
[11:16] <Phanes> you sure as hell are
[11:17] <Phanes> this is going to the irc sig council
[11:17] <ikonia> thats fine, I've already raised the issue with them
[11:17] <Phanes> and im not going to let up until either a new rule is in place to prevent people like you from doing this to other users or you are removed.  period.
[11:17] <ikonia> as I said, this is the "building a case thing"
[11:18] <ikonia> and "leverage"
[11:18] <Phanes> yes im building a case
[11:18] <Phanes> you need out
[11:18] <ikonia> I appreciate you do
[11:19] <Phanes> how long is your blacklist ban in effect for?
[11:20] <Phanes> also be aware that this will be a public issue eventually if it continues
[11:21] <Phanes> everyone involved will be named
[11:23] <chu> I'm not getting involved here, but is that a threat? Isn't like a little childish if you expect to be taken seriously?
[11:23] <k1l> Phanes: please make an appeal to the ircc since that is the community council which is running all the ubuntu irc channels and settings the guidenlines and nominate the ops teams
[11:23] <k1l> !appeal | Phanes
[11:24] <Phanes> when you have operators who are engaging in behaviour like that and it's clear they're getting supported by other operators it pushes the scope beyond that of the sig's and makes it a public issues.  it's not a threat, it's just making you aware that this is a community issue.
[11:24] <k1l> #ubuntu and #ubuntu-ops is publicly logged at irclogs.ubuntu.com
[11:25] <Phanes> right, but, these types of actors need to be identified so that when future users are experiencing same they aren't forced to treat every time like it's an isolated event
[11:25] <Phanes> and aren't under mercy of a sig that lets them do it
[11:25] <Phanes> when you're making affiliations as an entity with notable conventions, this needs to be public record as this is also a part of your contribution to the open source community
[11:26] <Phanes> simply saying you're not doing something doesnt make that real
[11:26] <k1l> Phanes: if you have proofs for your accusations then talk to the irc community council. that is what the channel guidelines and code of conduct have as the process to deal with that.
[11:27] <Phanes> well it's clearly not working is it
[11:27] <k1l> it is working
[11:27] <Phanes> Flannel, ping
[11:28] <k1l> but there are several sides of the same issue. and maybe its not like you want it to look like when someone looks at the situation explained from both sides. that is why we have the IRCC.
[11:28] <Phanes> the last meeting was Sep 9 2015
[11:28] <Phanes> this is made up PR stuff
[11:29] <k1l> they dont talk on issues like this on their scheduled meetings.
[11:30] <Phanes> i'll give this a shot but i really think independent resolution through PSAs is the only solution if this is even able to happen where you guys can see it
[11:30] <Phanes> what is the engagement model for the IRCC
[11:30] <Flannel> Phanes: Hi.
[11:30] <Phanes> Flannel, scroll up -- exactly what I was worried would happen
[11:31] <Flannel> Phanes: I'm not going to read all of that right now, what were you worried about happening that did happen?
[11:31] <Phanes> Flannel, your pm lastlog with me should still have all of that without me rehashing, but as I said, he has now carried his blacklisting into #ubuntu
[11:32] <Phanes> Flannel, and he is using engineered lies after I correct him while he was misinforming a user
[11:32] <Flannel> Phanes: so, what you're saying is that you feel like you were banned in #ubuntu without justification
[11:32] <Phanes> we had to go back in aftre he left for the night to apologize for his behaviour and give the correct advice
[11:32] <Phanes> i come in today and he's banned me from #ubuntu
[11:33] <Flannel> Phanes: I don't know all of the details, but is what I just summarized accurate?
[11:34] <Phanes> someone needs to step in here
[11:34] <Flannel> Phanes: Answer my question, please.  I'm trying to understand what the issue at hand is.
[11:35] <Phanes> check your last pm's please
[11:35] <Phanes> you can't just act like we've not already discussed this before it even happened
[11:35] <Phanes> that was like 2 days ago
[11:36] <Phanes> blacklisting is not tolerated
[11:36] <Flannel> I'm not acting like we haven't discussed anything.  I'm just asking you if "you feel that he's banned you in #ubuntu without justification" is an accurate statement.
[11:36] <Phanes> yes absolutely and i want you to intervene
[11:36] <Phanes> and then we need to take this to the irc sig as discussed
[11:37] <Flannel> Ok
[11:37]  * Phanes is visibly trying to work with you all amicably
[11:46] <Flannel> alright, well, I've worked through about half the relevant logs, but don't have time to go through the rest right now.
[11:47] <Phanes> event with user, waited until he left to apologize for misinformation and and fixed the issue, 05:21: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/01/04/%23ubuntu.txt
[11:48] <Flannel> Phanes: You're welcome to stay here to see if anyone can resolve, but I did notice a couple of times you seemed keen on elevating this to the IRCC.  So if that's your intent, then trying to resolve it here might not be a good use of your time and you might want to just go ahead and do so.
[11:48] <Phanes> what i want is this kind of nonsense out of my way, and once that is done i want to drive it to the sig council to prevent it from happening to others
[11:49] <Flannel> Phanes: I did read that log, there was no misinformation.  Although I do appreciate you taking the time to walk the user through decrypting their PDFs.
[11:49] <Phanes> the 16.04 to 16.10 is blatant misinformation
[11:49] <Phanes> the user's issue was he was trying to open encrypteed pdf's that didn't autodecrypt with blank passwords
[11:49] <Phanes> with *clients that don't do that
[11:50] <Phanes> that's not a distro version issue, that's a working with basic files issue
[11:50] <Phanes> and the fact that his attitude was what was being apologized for remains
[11:50] <Phanes> dealing with frustrating users who sometimes can't follow instructions is part of the role that gets filled there
[11:52] <Flannel> Phanes: It's not misinformation as far as I can ascertain.  It was a part of a larger conversation with the user.  Yes, the fact that the PDFs were encrypted wasn't caught, but that's why we don't have only a single person providing support, because no one person can catch everything.
[11:52] <Phanes> but that aside, let's say he was accurate (i disagree), this was not justification for a ban
[11:52] <Phanes> the user's issue was 'i cant open pdfs'
[11:53] <Phanes> this was because his client couldn't decrypt them
[11:53] <Phanes> that's not a distro version issue
[11:53] <Phanes> that's a pdf decryption issue
[11:53] <Phanes> which was fixed
[11:53] <Flannel> Phanes: I never said it was.  Which is why I wanted to make sure I understood the issue you would like to address today, which has nothing to do with a PDF or the quality of technical support.
[11:53] <Phanes> but let's say he was just wrong -- that's fine, that aside, fixing an operator when they are wrong is not a ban-worthy thing
[11:54] <Phanes> neither is telling them about it
[11:54] <Phanes> that's "hey, you were wrong about this, and kind of rude to the user, this is not working out"
[11:54] <Phanes> which is also not bannable
[11:55] <Phanes> but apparently what is bannable is "i look bad around this guy because he's fixing things im not"
[11:55] <Phanes> so what i want someone to do after this ban is lifted is, tell me what issues im allowed to fix and what issues im not allowed to fix when im helping users
[11:56] <Phanes> its not about 'prior history'.  it's not about 'what i said in pm'.  it's about the fact that this guy does not like competing influence and you are each and every one of you inclined to make sure he does not have to become a better operator.
[11:57] <ikonia> in your pm
[11:58] <Phanes> lift my ban and address your misbehaving oper
[11:58] <Flannel> Alright, lets try to keep things factual.
[11:58] <Flannel> Phanes: excuse me?
[12:00] <Phanes> Flannel, sorry if it hurts to swallow, but the fact that i am even having to be having to address this instead of someone just being given the log and fixing the channel access list accordingly is justification for believing that.
[12:01] <Flannel> Phanes: No, that's not how this works at all.
[12:01] <Phanes> as a group you guys shouldn't have to be pressed like this to intervene during operator abuse issues
[12:01] <Phanes> in your case i appreciate that you're at least trying to be impartial and look at it objectively, but, that should be the norm not the exception
[12:02] <Flannel> Phanes: It is absolutely the norm.
[12:02] <Phanes> yet here we are
[12:02] <Flannel> Doing "the norm", yes.
[12:03] <Phanes> if i recall the last time we went through this i had to pretend i was bringing in a canonical audit to get someone to even review the ban before it was lifted
[12:03] <Flannel> Phanes: Operators are human, sometimes mistakes are made.  That's why we have an appeal process, to enable people to get a second opinion without it becoming a big production.
[12:03] <Phanes> your appeal process does not result in action against operators
[12:04] <Flannel> Yeah, actually, it does.  However, I am not going to debate the appeals process with you today.
[12:04] <Phanes> because of this, your operators are able to get away with behaviours that necessitate the unmet purpose of the sig
[12:04] <Phanes> if it were being met, this would not have gone so far
[12:05] <Flannel> "so far" is "the first step", you realize that, don't you?
[12:05] <Flannel> Look, at this point, I'm not comfortable resolving your ban today.
[12:05] <Phanes> no the first step is me raising it to your attention two days ago warning you things like this would happen
[12:05] <Phanes> and now here we are and you are still acting like this is normal and okay
[12:05] <Flannel> So, please leave this channel and come back in at least 48 hours.  Then we can continue to discuss this #ubuntu ban, and hopefully resolve it.
[12:06] <Phanes> and you wonder why users won't work with the bans
[12:06] <Phanes> if the ban is set to 48 hours for a cool off ill honor that
[12:07] <Phanes> that does not mean ill not want it addressed by sig as this operator is engaging in toxic behaviours and genuinely should not be exposed to the users
[12:07] <Flannel> Phanes: I think a 48 hour cooling off window would benefit everyone, yes.  Please rejoin here in at least 48 hours and we'll continue.
[12:07] <Phanes> so #ubuntu ban lifts in 48 hours?
[12:07] <Flannel> No.
[12:07] <Phanes> ok, then i can not honor it
[12:07] <Flannel> You rejoin here in 48+ hours to continue the resolution of your ban.
[12:07] <Flannel> I'm sorry, this is not a negotiation.
[12:08] <Phanes> it is, as you do not decide what my network configuration looks like and can not enforce the ban without some degree of cooperation, which I'd like to give but only in reasonable context
[12:09] <Flannel> I strongly advise you against evading your ban.  That usually reflects poorly on the ultimate outcome.
[12:09] <Phanes> it seems ill have to anyway based on the disposition of the operator team
[12:10] <Phanes> you can't just put necks on boots
[12:10] <Flannel> Alright, as we have nothing else to discuss today, please part this channel.  I look forward to working with you again after 48 hours.
[12:10] <Phanes> i mean you can, but some people won't let that work because they disagree with the principle
[12:10] <Flannel> Have a nice day.
[12:10] <Phanes> ok, just be aware, im back in #ubuntu
[12:10] <Phanes> i have no intention of causing trouble
[12:10] <Flannel> Have a nice day.
[12:11] <Phanes> you too
[12:14] <chu> Another threat though :(
[12:15] <Phanes> I've threatened no one outside of a warning that any relevant PSAs will identify by legal name, which is not a threat if no one is doing anything wrong.
[12:15] <Phanes> Simply calling something a threat doesn't make it so.  You're not the only party with policies.


[08:09] <Laney> jamespage: say... you know java things, right? Does the jffi build failure make any sense to you?
[08:09] <Laney> (sorry!)
[08:10] <Laney> I spent some time on it but I basically don't know about this build system so it's a mystery
[08:10] <Laney> and via a long chain of crap it's blocking things in proposed-migration
[08:34] <Laney> oh, I bet you're at that openstack thing
[08:34] <Laney> RATS!


[19:00] <AlanBell> @now
[19:02] <AlanBell> meh, silly bot, 20:00 UTC is in 2 hours from now
[20:54] <JanC> 5 min from now?
[20:55] <jledbetter> I think the meeting is tomorrow
[20:56] <rww> It's currently 2011-04-20 20:00 UTC, so yes, tomorrow :)
[20:58] <AlanBell> this is true
[22:06] <akgraner> Hey all (I'll send this to the mailing list as well) Who wants to lead a session for Ubuntu Open Week?
[22:06] <akgraner> something for non-developer users to help them understand the ins and outs of Ubuntu :-)
[22:21] <akgraner> if you don't want to lead a session are there any sessions you would like to attend - topic suggestions welcome...then I can track people down :-)


[01:21] <pleia2> MooDoo: happy birthday! (I know I'm late your time)
[01:32] <ahoneybun> pleia2: hello
[01:32] <pleia2> o/ ahoneybun
[01:34] <ahoneybun> o/
[01:34] <ahoneybun> pleia2: where are the logs of the decision for the Membership Board?
[01:36] <pleia2> ahoneybun: you'll have to look back into archives for when they had meetings, so they have meetings on the 1st Thursday of the month @ 22:00 UTC and 3rd Wednesday of the month at 12:00 UTC so just figure out those dates, and look for the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
[01:37] <pleia2> so let's see, the first thursday of this month was the 2nd
[01:38] <pleia2> here's the one from then: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/04/02/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t21:03
[01:38] <pleia2> err, bad paste: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/04/02/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t22:04
[01:39] <pleia2> half the meeting was getting enough board members to show up, which is why it was important to restaff ;)
[01:41] <pleia2> it may be good to include a link to the meeting logs in the announcement emails they send out (like https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news-team/2015-April/002197.html)
[01:41] <pleia2> easier to keep track of them that way, then it doesn't take cross referencing dates with logs to dig them up :)
[01:42] <ahoneybun> pleia2: I don't think I will get the old email since I just sub to it now that I am a member
[01:43] <pleia2> ahoneybun: you probably have access to the private archives, but I meant the *public* emails they send to announce new members
[01:43] <pleia2> results are sent to the ubuntu-news-team mailing list so we can include them in UWN
[01:43] <ahoneybun> pleia2: I just want to see how I got voted in lol
[01:44] <pleia2> ahoneybun: oh, I thought you meant logs for membership meetings
[01:44] <ahoneybun> membership to the Board
[01:44] <pleia2> ahoneybun: the CC just does a condorcet vote across all candidates based on your email to the membership board and what we know of you from the community
[01:44] <pleia2> not much discussion really
[01:45] <ahoneybun> oh ok
[01:45] <ahoneybun> thanks
[01:46] <pleia2> :)
[07:04] <MooDoo> thanks pleia2 :D xx


[08:39] <Eghie> hello
[08:39] <Eghie> does anyone know how to add a GPG key from keyserver.ubuntu.com to a preseed file (via apt-setup/local0/key)?
[08:39] <Eghie> I want to add a couple of PPA repositories to my preseed file
[08:40] <Eghie> but I cannot find the url on keyserver.ubuntu.com which will get me te GPG file itself, so the apt-setup will accept that
[09:44] <_ruben> bah, mailx package went from transitional to virtual package .. is there some magic i can add to my preseed file to it'll install mailx for 6.06 and 8.04, but bsd-mailx for newer versions?
[10:13] <CIA-97> installation-guide: cjwatson * r474 ubuntu/ (1133 files in 269 dirs): merge from Debian 20100518
[10:16] <CIA-97> installation-guide: cjwatson * r475 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog en/hardware/hardware-supported.xml): Adjust list of armel architectures for Ubuntu.
[10:19] <CIA-97> installation-guide: cjwatson * r476 ubuntu/build/build.sh: drop hppa harder
[10:22] <CIA-97> installation-guide: cjwatson * r477 ubuntu/ (build/entities/common.ent debian/changelog): Bump release version and names for Maverick.
[10:23] <CIA-97> installation-guide: cjwatson * r478 ubuntu/ (build/entities/common.ent debian/changelog): Bump kernelversion to 2.6.35.
[10:29] <CIA-97> installation-guide: cjwatson * r479 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog en/bookinfo.xml): Update Canonical's copyright years.
[11:04] <CIA-97> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1323 ubuntu/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Move to 2.6.35-6 kernels.
[11:18] <CIA-97> ubiquity: cjwatson * r4124 ubiquity/d-i/sources.list: bump to maverick
[11:23] <CIA-97> ubiquity: cjwatson * r4125 ubiquity/ (5 files in 5 dirs): Add btrfs support.
[11:50] <CIA-97> installation-guide: cjwatson * r480 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 20100518ubuntu1
[16:14] <cjwatson> ev: I'd like to fix this 10.04/10.10 bug in the slideshow for alpha-2, but it isn't easy to just do a sed - I'll have to break translations.  Do you think that's OK for me to just go ahead and do in lp:~ubiquity-slideshow/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/html ?
[16:18] <ev> cjwatson: yeah, by all means
[16:18] <ev> I'm not concerned about breaking translations at this point in the cycle
[16:20] <cjwatson> righto
[16:26] <CIA-97> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1324 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 20100211ubuntu10
[17:00] <cjwatson> ev: does http://paste.ubuntu.com/455043/ look OK?
[17:01] <ev> cjwatson: looks good
[17:01] <ev> thanks!
[17:02] <cjwatson> what's the translation update rune?
[17:02] <cjwatson> make translations?
[17:03] <cjwatson> hm, just 'make' I think
[17:04] <ev> hrm yeah, hadn't noticed that nit before
[17:09] <cjwatson> we probably ought to upload ubiquity for alpha-2
[17:09] <ev> noted
[17:10] <ev> I'm off on Monday, but I'll sort it out on Tuesday
[17:13] <CIA-97> ubiquity: cjwatson * r4126 ubiquity/ (82 files in 4 dirs): Add an intro message noting that we're alpha again.
[17:30] <CIA-97> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: cjwatson * r273 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/ (253 files in 9 dirs):
[17:30] <CIA-97> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: Bump version numbers to 10.10. Many slides still need to be rewritten;
[17:30] <CIA-97> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: this is just a minimal change (LP: #588677).
[17:32] <CIA-97> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: cjwatson * r274 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/ (source source/format source/options changelog): Switch to source format 3.0 (native) with bzip2 compression.
[17:33] <CIA-97> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: cjwatson * r275 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/ (changelog control): Policy version 3.8.4: no changes required.
[17:34] <CIA-97> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu: cjwatson * r276 ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 23
[18:46] <msergei> I'm trying to follow guide outlined in the book Professional Ubuntu Mobile Development to build a custom ISO image. I've created a local lucid mirror checked out ubuntu-cdimage, debian-cd, britney and germinate. So everything seems to be installed and configured. However when I try to build just default "daily" ubuntu-server cd it fails to create an image. (it actually thinks it creates it but there is nothing) http://pastebin.com/
[18:46] <cjwatson> your message was truncated at "http://pastebin.com/"
[18:48] <msergei> http://pastebin.com/bpER8Rdy
[18:49] <cjwatson> what command are you running to do the build?
[18:50] <msergei> Sorry forgot: CDIMAGE_ROOT=/imax/dev/ubuntu-cdimage CDIMAGE_NOSOURCE=1 DIST=lucid ARCHES=amd64 CDIMAGE_NOSYNC=1 DEBUG=1 for-project ubuntu-server cron.daily
[18:50] <cjwatson> have you edited debian-cd/CONF.sh at all?
[18:50] <msergei> No
[18:50] <cjwatson> ok, you'll need to in order to disable post-release updates
[18:51] <cjwatson> look for the paragraphs containing 'export SECURITY=', 'export UPDATES=', and 'export PROPOSED=', and comment them all out
[18:51] <cjwatson> if that doesn't work, pastebin the entire debug output of cron.daily for me
[18:52] <msergei> Is there a wiki somewhere? Since this can be quite a challenge for someone to uncover
[18:54] <cjwatson> afraid not, not that I know of anyway
[18:59] <msergei> http://pastebin.com/ca63Tu9F full debug output from console
[18:59] <msergei> I've unset SECURITY, UPDATES and PROPOSED
[19:03] <msergei> I've created mirror using the following command: http://pastebin.com/RFeYpBEf
[19:03] <cjwatson> firstly, you don't have a source mirror so it's all kind of noisy
[19:03] <cjwatson> secondly, you have your mirror on a different device from your build directory
[19:04] <cjwatson> see debian-cd/README, search for "symlink farm"
[19:04] <msergei> Yes, my mirror is on NFS share t
[19:04] <cjwatson> and search for that in debian-cd/CONF.sh
[19:05] <cjwatson> incidentally, now that I think of it, you should also apply this patch to ubuntu-cdimage/bin/run-germinate to disable post-release updates harder:
[19:05] <cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/455104/
[19:09] <msergei> How did you figure out that I was using NFS?
[19:12] <cjwatson> I didn't know it was specifically NFS, but there were loads of "Invalid cross-device link" errors in the debug output
[19:14] <msergei> I see… is there any reason why script creates lucid-server-amd64.raw instead of ISO?
[19:19] <cjwatson> historical - Debian used to do some postprocessing on it
[19:20] <cjwatson> it's never been worth changing
[19:21] <msergei> do you use exactly the script with no updates, security and proposed to create "release" images? Or may be I would rephrase it, once 10.04.1 release ready to be built. Will you just enable updates and build it or updated packages will migrate into the main lucid folder? It is interesting that this book (Ubuntu Mobile Development) is the only place where I found full procedure to be documented (and this happened by coincidence).
[19:23] <cjwatson> we enable updates - updated packages don't migrate to the lucid suite
[19:23] <cjwatson> yes yes I know we suck at documentation ;-)
[19:23] <msergei> Do you think if I document process through which which I was able to build this cd image it will be helpful?
[19:23] <cjwatson> sure
[19:24] <cjwatson> there are certainly reproducibility problems with point releases - what we really need there is a representation of point releases in Launchpad, which there isn't currently
[19:24] <msergei> I don't know proper procedure. Do I just create Wiki page and it gets accepted or there is a review process?
[19:25] <msergei> I wonder if I will violate some law since procedure is described in the book.
[19:27] <cjwatson> you could ask its authors, they're probably on IRC somewhere
[19:27] <cjwatson> on wiki.ubuntu.com, you can create pages freely
[19:32] <msergei> My ultimate goal is to create "minimal" distribution fully preseeded that has no suggested or recommended packages, only minimal dependency tree and a few of my own packages. How would I change scripts (is there a variable or something) to force building cd with dependant pages only (I think in lucid it was announced that all suggested packages are being installed)
[19:47] <msergei> Thank you very much Colin for your support! Just fantastic.


[00:07] <bryce> LaserJock: not that I know of
[00:07] <bryce> LaserJock: patches welcomed tho
[00:11] <wgrant> Shouldn't xorg.conf be replaced if it hasn't been modified?
[00:34] <bryce> wgrant: well LaserJock's talking about people who've customized their xorg.conf's to set up input devices
[00:35] <wgrant> bryce: Ah. Maybe we need some XKit magic to remove the default device entries?
[00:35] <wgrant> Actually, why doesn't it work?
[00:36] <bryce> wgrant: i-h/-evdev steals all the devices and ignores xorg.conf settings
[00:36] <wgrant> Exactly.
[00:36] <wgrant> But having an entry for the touchpad breaks things.
[00:36] <bryce> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseNotes - see X.org Input Devices
[00:36] <wgrant> So it's obviously not entirely ignored.
[00:40] <jcristau> the synaptics from xorg.conf should steal the device before the hotplugged one
[00:43] <tseliot> bryce, wgrant: maybe we could make a backup of xorg.conf files and remove inputdevice sections and serverlayout sections with XKit.
[00:43] <wgrant> tseliot: That's what I was thinking.
[00:43] <wgrant> Hmmm.
[00:43] <wgrant> Shouldn't we just remove the default inputdevices and remove their references from serverlayout?
[00:44] <wgrant> Removing custom inputdevices and custom serverlayouts sounds like a recipe for irate users.
[00:45] <bryce> commenting them out would be preferable to removing them
[00:45] <wgrant> jcristau: If it's stealing the device first, why doesn't the entry in https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-input-synaptics/+bug/214252/comments/16 work?
[00:45] <tseliot> wgrant: yes, I agree with you. We'll need to plan (and then test) this carefully
[00:46] <wgrant> We haven't got long, though...
[00:47] <tseliot> bryce: currently XKit doesn't allow to do comment things out but having a backup file, say, xorg.conf_dist-upgrade, should be enough
[00:47] <bryce> hmm
[00:48] <tseliot> wgrant: it's 01:47 AM here and by carefully I mean when I'm not half asleep ;)
[00:48]  * wgrant is glad this can be done in the dist-upgrader, and doesn't have to be a postinst somewhere.
[00:48] <nxvl> slangasek: did you accepted lrm alreadu?
[00:48] <nxvl> already*
[00:48] <wgrant> tseliot: Heh.
[00:49] <tseliot> bryce, wgrant: ok, we can talk about this maybe via email, and notify mvo
[00:49] <bryce> sounds good
[00:49] <slangasek> nxvl: yes
[00:50] <jcristau> wgrant: that bug doesn't have a recent log, so, dunno.
[00:50] <tseliot> ok then, good night
[00:50] <nxvl> slangasek: \o/
[00:50] <nxvl> slangasek: then i can update in the morning?
[00:50] <slangasek> nxvl: that depends on when linux-meta is uploaded, you'd have to ask the kernel team on that
[00:51] <wgrant> jcristau: The recent comments at the end seem to be unrelated to the rest of the bug.
[00:51] <slangasek> nxvl: well, or you can upgrade by hand, yes
[00:51] <nxvl> slangasek: yes, but there is still no linux-restricted-modules-2.6.27-5
[00:54] <slangasek> nxvl: there is; though it may not be on your mirror yet
[00:55] <nxvl> right, i'm using pe.archive
[00:55] <nxvl> that might be
[01:09] <nxvl> slangasek: Bug #256459
[01:10] <nxvl> slangasek: can you confirm that it is on debian-installer actually?
[01:14] <slangasek> nxvl: 'partman' is a more exact starting point, but 'debian-installer' is also ok
[01:15] <nxvl> slangasek: ok, i will look at partman, thank you
[01:23] <LaserJock> wgrant: sorry, was afk
[01:23] <LaserJock> wgrant: my problem is that I had my touchpad set up in xorg.conf and that got overridden by HAL so I wrote an fdi file
[01:23] <LaserJock> *now* xinput overrides HAL so my fdi file doesn't work
[01:24] <LaserJock> so in the end I've moved through 3 different configuration mechanism to configure my touchpad
[01:24] <wgrant> LaserJock: What do you mean "xinput overrides HAL"?
[01:24] <LaserJock> wgrant: meaning, xinput settings override my HAL settings
[01:24] <LaserJock> so I had my fdi file all set up but it didn't have any effect
[01:25] <LaserJock> so their seems to be a hierarchy, xinput > HAL > xorg.conf
[01:25] <wgrant> LaserJock: You mean you were trying to override some of the ~4 XI properties that gnome-settings-daemon now sets?
[01:25] <wgrant> Right.
[01:26] <LaserJock> wgrant: I'm not sure what's responsible
[01:26] <wgrant> Which were you trying to set?
[01:26] <LaserJock> I just know what works and then it stops working
[01:26] <LaserJock> turn off the tap-to-click and vertical scrolling
[01:26] <wgrant> Right, gnome-settings-daemon overrides those.
[01:26] <wgrant> You want System->Preferences->Mouse->Touchpad.
[01:27] <LaserJock> sure, I figured that out eventually
[01:27] <LaserJock> but I had a fdi file that worked, and previously I had an xorg.conf that worked
[01:28] <LaserJock> I think users are gonna have a bit of a shock if they've, like me, done any configuration of their touchpad
[01:28] <wgrant> If people are delving into their xorg.confs and fdi files, I think we can probably expect them to be able to work this out...
[01:28] <LaserJock> why?
[01:28] <wgrant> fdi files only just started existing, so this doesn't affect upgrades.
[01:28] <LaserJock> no, but it's in the wiki
[01:28] <LaserJock> people are going to find it and file bugs as to why it doesn't work right
[01:28] <wgrant> LaserJock: Where in the wiki?
[01:28] <LaserJock> and existing xorg.conf files not working is a bigger concern
[01:28] <LaserJock> X/Config
[01:29] <wgrant> Right, the xorg.conf issue needs to be worked out.
[01:29] <wgrant> But I don't see fdi files as a particularly significant issue.
[01:32]  * wgrant fixes the wiki page to mention that gnome-settings-daemon overrides a few things.l
[01:39] <LaserJock> well, I'm glad to not need the fdi file anyway :-)
[01:40] <LaserJock> but there are a lot of good documentation on help.ubuntu.com that will need updating
[01:40] <wgrant> We certainly do need better docs.
[01:40] <LaserJock> has anybody talked to the Doc Team about this change?
[01:40] <mrooney> TheMuso: ping?
[01:43] <slangasek> superm1: ping
[01:44] <mrooney> wgrant: well, I'll boot back in Hardy so I can get some things done, and try later, thanks for your help!
[01:45] <wgrant> mrooney: np
[02:03] <slangasek> superm1: contentful ping: if you have a chance, I'd appreciate a review of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseNotes#nVidia%20%22legacy%22%20video%20support for accuracy
[02:03] <wgrant> slangasek: Who grants UI freeze exceptions?
[02:04] <slangasek> wgrant: the release team who grants other freeze exceptions for the component in question
[02:04] <wgrant> slangasek: OK, so you count for main?
[02:05] <slangasek> yes :)
[02:06] <wgrant> slangasek: Given that we're breaking everybody's custom Synaptics touchpad configuration, I'd like to ensure that the most customised options are exposed through the GUI - the two I'd like to add are horizontal and vertical two-finger scrolling. That'd just mean two extra checkboxes in the Touchpad tab of gnome-mouse-properties, and a few extra lines of code there and in g-s-d... what are my chances?
[02:07] <slangasek> wgrant: chances are excellent; the UI freeze is mostly to prevent gratuitous changes that piss off the doc folks, not to get in the way of fixing major UI blunders
[02:10] <wgrant> slangasek: Not really a UI blunder, but sounds good...
[02:12] <wgrant> Well, I guess forcing people to config things through xorg.conf is a UI blunder.
[02:12] <slangasek> that's my view :-)
[02:16] <wgrant> slangasek: What's the process for officially getting an exception?
[02:22] <wgrant> Oh. I didn't see that it was on FreezeExceptionProcess. Sorry.
[03:03] <bryce> slangasek: ok, -ati git snapshot packaged, tested locally, and uploaded.
[03:42] <superm1> slangasek, Isn't the migration to "nv" going to be automatic for those users too though?
[03:42] <superm1> like how you mentioned in the -ati one
[03:45] <superm1> wgrant, is it possible too for a checkbox for circular scrolling for touchpads that support it?
[03:46] <superm1> i'm not sure how much is in the synaptics driver - but i know i've got some hardware that supports it at least
[03:49] <wgrant> superm1: It's entirely in the driver.
[03:49] <wgrant> superm1: I'd like to add it, and I'm working on that code now, but the hard bit is taking input for the start position.
[03:49] <wgrant> A guess a set of radio buttons would work.
[03:50] <wgrant> The touchpad device is really pretty stupid - it just reports touch position, pressure, sometimes number of fingers, and sometimes width.
[03:50] <superm1> wgrant, ah i wasn't aware it was all software supported
[03:51] <wgrant> superm1: Any other options that you'd like exposed?
[03:51] <superm1> wgrant, what else is there?  I just knew about circular scrolling, horiz and vert scrolling
[03:52] <wgrant> superm1: xinput list-props "SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad"
[03:52] <wgrant> There's a lot.
[03:52] <wgrant> Much of it probably shouldn't be exposed, but more of it should be eventually.
[03:53] <superm1> hum, for me unable to find device SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad
[03:53] <wgrant> xinput list
[03:53] <superm1> oh on this machine it's ALPS
[03:53] <wgrant> Some types have different names.
[03:53] <wgrant> Ah.
[03:54] <superm1> wgrant, two finger scrolling would be nice
[03:54] <superm1> i've seen some mac folks who have had that
[03:54] <wgrant> superm1: That's what I'm implementing now.
[03:54] <wgrant> A lot of people request it.
[03:54] <superm1> wgrant, cool :)
[03:55] <bcurtiswx> anyone here understand Oct  3 15:03:52 weather kernel: Inspecting /boot/System.map-2.6.27-4-generic
[03:55] <bcurtiswx> Oct  3 15:03:52 weather kernel: Cannot find map file.
[03:55] <bcurtiswx> is that a bad thing?
[07:08] <slangasek> superm1: I don't know yet; I've asked that question in the bug, but I'm not writing that in the release notes until it's implemented
[07:18] <slangasek> superm1: did it look accurate, otherwise, in terms of the chipsets claimed to be affected?
[12:25] <saurabh> i think the global menu patch is a bad idea, normally we access the menu using the ALT key, so why not just hide the menu and then show it after the user presses the ALT key?, this saves vertical screen space as well
[12:27] <ion_> What patch?
[12:27] <Hobbsee> i expect you end up with teh ie7 situation then
[12:27] <Hobbsee> a whole bunch of users going "what the hell have you done with my menu?!?!?!"
[12:28] <saurabh> Hobbsee: we can make it optional then
[12:28] <Hobbsee> saurabh: even so.
[12:29] <wgrant> "global menu patch"?
[12:29] <saurabh> wgrant: yes
[12:30] <wgrant> Not quite the response I was wanting.
[12:30] <ion_> Ditto
[12:30] <saurabh> i just need the ability to hide the menu for every application
[12:31] <wgrant> What is the global menu patch, and why is it a bad idea?
[12:32] <saurabh> wgrant: you get mac like global menu functionality
[12:33] <wgrant> saurabh: Ah.
[12:33] <digistyl3> hi TheMuso, are you online?
[12:33]  * wgrant doesn't normally access menus using Alt.
[12:37] <digistyl3> hey everyone, i seem to have a strange problem, and i think it's related to the intel driver (i use an intel x3100)
[12:37] <digistyl3> when i use virtualbox
[12:37] <digistyl3> the screen contents sometimes freeze
[12:37] <digistyl3> they only refresh when i move the window
[12:37] <digistyl3> it happens with me in dosbox too
[12:37] <digistyl3> i don't have the fancy desktop effects enabled
[12:38] <digistyl3> how can i debug this?
[12:40] <digistyl3> it also happens with flash
[12:40] <digistyl3> if i watch youtube videos
[12:41] <digistyl3> the image in the video freezes, i have to scroll for it to continue updating the contents
[12:54] <digistyl3> oh well, i just found two bugs about this and joined them, people thought it was a flashplugin-nonfree bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/275285
[12:58] <ogra> thats more likely a driver prob
[12:58] <ogra> digistyl3, you should ask for X driver info
[12:58] <digistyl3> ogra: someone said that he's using nvidia graphics
[12:59] <ogra> yeah, i see two people mentionint intel though
[12:59] <ogra> *mentioning
[13:05] <digistyl3> ogra: i posted my xserver-xorg and xserver-xorg-video-intel version numbers
[13:06] <ogra> good
[13:06] <digistyl3> you don't think the bug is in the kernel, do you?
[13:06] <ogra> no idea, but it sounds like an xorg driver or compiz bug
[13:07] <digistyl3> ogra: i have visual effects set to "None", so i think compiz is out of the picture here
[13:24]  * mcasadevall pokes ScottK
[14:10] <siretart> what does '夠荒唐' mean? (keybuk's quit message)
[14:11] <Spads> siretart: it's a chinese phrase allegedly meaning "to hell with it" (or equivalent) that was used in the dialogue in Firefly
[14:11] <realist> I'm not sure, my terminal only displayed one of those glyphs
[14:12]  * realist wonders how to fix that
[14:12] <Spads> realist: I installed ttf fonts until everything appeared: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/23131/ (as of July)
[14:13] <Spads> \〠/ <-- eventually you'll be able to see the postman there
[14:14] <realist> I'm laking some fonts, it appears
[14:16] <Spads> realist: well to be fair, I doubt most of those fonts are relevant to your locale, so it makes sense that they aren't installed by default.  Still, I'd love a ttf-lots-and-lots-please metapackage of some sort
[14:16] <StevenK> ttf-every-font-and-then-some
[14:19] <Spads> yeah precisely
[14:22] <realist> I'm about to try something like; apt-get install `apt-search ttf |awk '/^ttf/{print $1}'`
[14:23] <Spads> yeah I've done something similar
[14:23] <realist> ^search^cache search^
[14:23] <Spads> you have to grep out conflicting ones
[14:23]  * realist nods
[14:25] <realist> 359MB, maybe not
[14:40] <lfaraone> How would I go forward with a bug like bug 277302 that has a bzr branch attached and works (IMHO), where ubuntu is upstream?
[14:41] <lfaraone> (correction, it's filed against networkmanager and is triaged as medium)
[14:50] <siretart> Spads: ah, thanks
[16:44] <exco> to chroot into a broken 8.10 - do I need an 8.10 live cd or should it also work with an 8.04 one?
[16:50] <siretart> exco: please use #ubuntu for end-user support
[16:51] <exco> ok thanks, siretart
[16:59] <hspaans> g'day all
[17:00] <hspaans> now Ubuntu 8.10 is in beta, all packages have been landed? this because X sometimes freezes up
[19:07] <EvanCarroll> Is there a unannounced plan for regression in Xorg to 7.3 in the event ATI doesn't update fglrx in time for release?
[19:07] <EvanCarroll> or is 8.10 really at risk for being pushed onto the shelf without fglrx?
[19:08] <cjwatson> the latter; reverting X is pretty much off the table at this point
[19:08] <EvanCarroll> wow, that amazing.
[19:08] <cjwatson> we may be forced to do a post-release update of fglrx, although I don't like that option
[19:09] <tseliot> currently we are migrating installations to the open source driver with Update Manager + X-Kit
[19:09] <EvanCarroll> the failure of ATI to get fglrx out is going to have massive blowback for the adoption of the distro if it goes out like this.
[19:10] <Mirv> EvanCarroll: the open source driver should nowadays support good 2D resolutions out of the box on even the X3000/X4000 series, so ordinary people don't notice until they start to want some fancy 3D (at which point there might be an update available already)
[19:10] <Mirv> the main problem before was that they couldn't even start Ubuntu without fglrx, nowadays luckily that's not a problem
[19:11] <EvanCarroll> even the opensource driver (radeonhd i presume) don't support HDMI, and the ATI driver doesn't support sound on HDMI, and the conversion from fglrx to ati is actually apearing to draw outside of the size on my screen.. But I could be wrong - I'm looking into that now to file a bug
[19:11] <Mirv> (since ATI has failed to release drivers supporting latest X.org before, too)
[19:12] <EvanCarroll> yea, I'll definitly speak with my money on my future purchases I'm afraid new people aren't smart enough to point a blame finger and the buck will stop at the distro
[19:12] <tseliot> EvanCarroll: we use the "ati" driver (not "radeonhd"). Please file a bug report
[19:14] <Mirv> EvanCarroll: well NVIDIA has equally lacked support for latest X.org releases, so currently with external gfx cards you choose wrong anyway :) ATI's going to better though, while NVIDIA probably won't.
[19:14] <Mirv> EvanCarroll: anyway, the point is that if users install intrepid in eg. November, they might have fglrx install option as soon as they boot the installed system
[19:24] <EvanCarroll> oh well, at least we can see the bumps in the road up ahead. I just wonder if a system that warns early adopters that this will probably not live up their expecatations is called for prior to the update and download of packages. IE some sort of outstanding "critical" issues syndication that integrates with the libapt in a post-calculating-ugrade process
[19:27] <EvanCarroll> since this will certaintly at the very least break all of the new HTPCs running on the ati chipset
[19:32] <slangasek> EvanCarroll: the issue will be documented in the release notes, which will be displayed in update-manager when you click 'upgrade'; except that it looks like we're currently showing the wrong document, so I'll dig into that
[19:33] <EvanCarroll> Is that a feature of update-manager of an extention to libapt?
[19:33] <slangasek> update-manager, which is the supported upgrade path between Ubuntu releases
[19:34] <EvanCarroll> interesting, I've always just used apt-get dist-upgrade and figured they had the same functionality
[19:35] <Mirv> EvanCarroll: read the documentation ;)
[19:36] <slangasek> they don't; in addition to displaying the release notes, update-manager implements a number of quirks that can't be implemented sanely within apt, to handle specific upgrade issues between releases
[19:36] <sebner> slangasek: aloha. did you notice my nfdump debdiff (since you are subscribed)?
[19:37] <slangasek> sebner: hmm, apparently not; sorry, it may have been lost in the wash of beta-related mail
[19:38] <sebner> slangasek: nvm :) Still interested or should I subscribe u-u-s?
[19:38] <EvanCarroll> slangasek: thanks for the info, Mirv not mentioned in man pages of update-manager, in fact it is called a "front-end into the apt package management system" -- which almost explicitly says, "I do nothing special"
[19:38] <sebner> sladen: debdiff is reallllllllllllllllly small though  ^^⁺
[19:38] <EvanCarroll> my mental model just lead me to believe update-manager was aptitude or dselect or somtehing ported to GTK
[19:39] <EvanCarroll> and that they were all front-ends to libapt
[19:41]  * EvanCarroll reads the code to update-manager
[19:41] <slangasek> cjwatson: seems to be some memory fuzziness on my part; I thought update-manager would link directly to the release notes, but it seems to only link to dists/$distseries/main/dist-upgrader-all/current/ReleaseAnnouncement - am I thinking of ubiquity?
[19:45] <IntuitiveNipple> What's the policy when an existing patch is incomplete? correct the patch, remove it and add a full patch, or add a patch that does the 'diff' between existing and 'full' ?
[19:56] <slangasek> sebner: uploaded, thanks
[19:57] <sebner> slangasek: np, thx to you :)
[19:59] <EvanCarroll> Mirv: yea, there are some things it does, like checks symlinks to /usr/bin/python
[19:59] <EvanCarroll> and that you don't upgrade more than one leap at a time
[20:01] <geser> IntuitiveNipple: I guess there is no policy but commonly the patch gets fixed (e.g. a new version gets attached to the bug)
[20:01] <EvanCarroll> it seems to be like it would be advantagous to move this stuff into a libapt extention
[20:04] <IntuitiveNipple> geser: I'm repackaging it so I'll just regen the patch then
[20:16] <EvanCarroll> Mirv: what is the supported upgrade method if you don't have X? like with ubuntu-server?
[20:16] <ion_> do-dist-upgrade
[20:16] <ion_> do-release-upgrade, that is.
[20:17] <EvanCarroll> interesting. =)
[20:27] <Mirv> EvanCarroll: the documentation is http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/upgrading - of course man pages could be good too, but if one knows man pages etc. one should possibly be able to fix any small breakages apg-get dist-upgrade might cause
[20:33] <EvanCarroll> I tend to agree, the stuff it does is fairly minor but it does a lot of fairly minor stuff, even reseting themes if they are being used and known to cause problems
[20:34] <EvanCarroll> some of the stuff it does seems kind of fishy: like executing random scripts in the local directory, and making the assumption that it is being run under sudo
[20:41] <slangasek> pitti, tjaalton, bryce: in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseNotes we say that some keys may misbehave in X if you have the wrong keyboard model set.  Is this really going to be a problem on upgrade?  If it is, shouldn't we be doing something better to detect the keyboard model on upgrade?
[20:43] <cjwatson> slangasek: ubiquity links to the online one; I've never looked at what update-manager does
[20:44] <slangasek> ok
[20:44] <cjwatson> EvanCarroll: update-manager was conceived as executable release notes
[20:44] <cjwatson> at least that was how I put it and I liked the phrase, I don't know if it caught on :)
[20:44] <cjwatson> EvanCarroll: release notes often include all sorts of random little stuff, and update-manager is no different really
[20:53] <tseliot> slangasek: as regards the problems caused by InputDevice entries for the mouse and keyboard in the xorg.conf, we were discussing with bryce and wgrant about letting Update Manager remove these entries with X-Kit
[20:55] <tseliot> slangasek: if you were referring to this problem in your last question.
[20:56] <slangasek> tseliot: I don't know that this has any relation to what is shown as the keyboard type in the GNOME interface
[20:56] <slangasek> tseliot: btw, I had questions regarding your follow-up to bug #251107
[20:57] <tseliot> slangasek: ok, I guess I misunderstood your question then ;)
[20:57] <slangasek> tseliot: aren't these nvidia drivers shipped in binary-only form?  If so, isn't it a *bug* if the ABI declaration is not hard-coded?
[20:58] <NCommander> slangasek, no, the NVIDIA drivers have a small LGPL glue code and then the blob
[20:58] <tseliot> slangasek: only a part is a binary
[20:58] <NCommander> (its how they run around releasing closed blob drivers)
[20:59] <tseliot> slangasek: and of course the part which is affected by the problem described in the bug report is the binary one
[21:02] <slangasek> hum - so the X driver includes an LGPL shim?
[21:03] <slangasek> still seems buggy to me to auto-increment the ABI, since clearly the binary bit can also break it
[21:06] <NCommander> Anyone here a firefox guru?
[21:07] <IntuitiveNipple> NCommander: I became a bit of one recently, fixing up xulrunner1.9, but I don't guarantee anything :)
[21:09] <NCommander> IntuitiveNipple, I think I found a problem with the firefox alternatives file
[21:10] <IntuitiveNipple> NCommander: ah ok. I was more focused on internal xulrunner core code, although I did do some stuff with incorrect flashplugin paths a while back.
[21:10] <NCommander> IntuitiveNipple, can you tell me if firefox-3.0 works for you
[21:10] <NCommander> (specifically that command)
[21:11] <IntuitiveNipple> Not for intrepid, no. I'd have to run up a VM and since the daily on Friday it fails to run the CD installer for me
[21:13] <tseliot> slangasek: I see your point however, if that kind of breakage happens, I assure you that I will notice it (as Xorg won't start). It is more likely that I forget to bump the ABI.
[21:14] <slangasek> tseliot: well, that seems to assume no one else ever does a package rebuild for other reasons without having the hardware to test with
[21:14] <slangasek> NCommander: er, check the bug list?
[21:15] <slangasek> bug #275410
[21:15] <tseliot> slangasek: well, in my opinion you shouldn't package new upstream versions which you can't test
[21:16] <tseliot> it's a bit risky
[21:16] <NCommander> Hrm, this was a bug with x-www-browser
[21:16] <slangasek> tseliot: I'm not talking about packaging new upstream versions
[21:16] <tseliot> slangasek: what's the use case then?
[21:17] <NCommander> slangasek, should a release-blocker bug be considered critical or high
[21:17] <slangasek> tseliot: anyone doing archive-wide fixing of packaging bugs
[21:17]  * NCommander can't remember :-/
[21:17] <slangasek> NCommander: release-blocker status is unrelated to the distinction between critical and high
[21:17] <NCommander> ok
[21:17] <slangasek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RCBugTargetting
[21:17] <NCommander> slangasek, this bug completely breaks the Xubuntu Xfce help system
[21:18] <NCommander> Thank you
[21:18] <slangasek> well, and?  I've already marked the bug as release-critical...
[21:19] <tseliot> slangasek: I hope that such a thing doesn't happen without talking to the X-team first
[21:19] <slangasek> Maintainer: Ubuntu Core Developers<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[21:20] <slangasek> tseliot: ^^ that's the maintainer field on nvidia-graphics-drivers-71, which implies any core-dev can expect to reasonably upload
[21:20] <slangasek> NCommander: you're right that the bug title is incomplete; fixing, thanks
[21:20] <NCommander> I'm adding my two cents
[21:20] <NCommander> (a second script /usr/bin/firefox-3.0 is also broken)
[21:21] <slangasek> that's not a second script
[21:21] <tseliot> slangasek: that doesn't look good to me. Just my 2 cents
[21:21] <perlsyntax> Does anyone know how to do raw socket in unbuntu?
[21:21] <slangasek> tseliot: then apparently someone should change it? :)
[21:22] <perlsyntax> how do i programming in main root?
[21:22] <slangasek> tseliot: my understanding of current practice is: if the maintainer field points to a specific person or team, talk to them first before uploading.  If not, you can upload without coordination.
[21:22] <slangasek> perlsyntax: this is not a help channel
[21:23] <perlsyntax> do i sudo bash to do that?
[21:23] <perlsyntax> ?
[21:23] <tseliot> slangasek: good point. Maybe we could use something like this team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat
[21:23] <perlsyntax> hello?
[21:23] <trenton_> Hello all, trying to build Amarok2 from trunk but getting mysql error on kubuntu hardy. needs libmysqld.a which package do I need please?
[21:24] <tseliot> slangasek: suggestions are always welcome ;)
[21:24] <perlsyntax> slangasek, any ideas?
[21:24] <slangasek> perlsyntax: I said, this is not a help channel.  Try #ubuntu, or a help channel specific to your programming language.
[21:24] <perlsyntax> i did they told me to come here
[21:24] <slangasek> they told you wrong
[21:24] <NCommander> slangasek, have you done any work as cooking a patch for this bug, or shall I try to do one myself
[21:27] <tjaalton> slangasek: it shouldn't matter anymore, so that part can be dropped from the release notes
[21:27] <slangasek> tjaalton: great, thanks
[21:28] <slangasek> tseliot: ~ubuntu-x-swat looks like a pretty good fit for that, yeah
[21:28] <EvanCarroll> I think I was just affected by a keybinding bug my caps lock just randomly got remapped to caps lock
[21:28] <NCommander> slangasek, I figured out what I need to patch to in the firefox-3.0 source package. I'm going to have it checked for the appname (i.e., if it tries to call gnome-sensible-browser, it will try that first, then fall back to $LIBDIR if not found)
[21:28] <NCommander> slangasek, any objections?
[21:29] <tseliot> slangasek: ok, thanks for spotting the problem and for your suggestion
[21:29] <slangasek> NCommander: yes, I object because I outlined the correct fix in my follow-up to the bug
[21:29]  * NCommander rereads steve's bug
[21:30] <NCommander> slangasek, isn't that in effect what I just suggested? Check for the name it was called by, and if it doesn't exist, call the always known to be there firefox binary?
[21:31] <NCommander> or I said my fix would be
[21:31] <slangasek> NCommander: no, you said something about "falling back to $LIBDIR"...
[21:32] <NCommander> In the script, it tries to call $LIBDIR/$APPNAME
[21:32] <NCommander> Which works out to be /usr/lib/firefox-3.0.3/$APPNAME
[21:32] <NCommander> So if I call it as x-www-browser, it should try /usr/lib/firefox-3.0.3/x-www-browser before falling back to firefox, unless I misunderstood you
[21:35] <nxvl> cjwatson: can you please process Bug #274173?
[21:35] <hansin> Anyone here heard on any install issues with the beta alternate CD for i386?
[21:35] <slangasek> it should try /usr/lib/firefox-3.0.3/x-www-browser; then it should do NAME=$(readlink $0); APPNAME=$(basename $NAME); and check for that; and it should iterate until either readlink says it's not a link, or NAME = /usr/lib/firefox-3.0.3/firefox.sh, and /then/ fallback
[21:36] <slangasek> NCommander: ^^
[21:37] <NCommander> slangasek, ah. I wasn't quite familar with readlink's behavior, but that makes perfect sense.
[21:37]  * NCommander attempts to recover the tomes of shell script programming in my head
[21:58] <NCommander> slangasek, maybe I'm missing something, but is there a reason that you can't simply call the symlink directly?
[21:59] <NCommander> Since you can do -L $LINK to see if its valid, and if not, drop to firefox
[22:05] <NCommander> ^^- slangasek?
[22:18] <NCommander> slangasek, http://pastebin.ca/1219253 - this is what my current tweak to the firefox.sh script looks like
[22:18] <cjwatson> nxvl: it's a weekend and I have to get up early tomorrow; I'm off to bed
[22:19] <cjwatson> nxvl: I assume ubuntu-archive is subscribed and thus it is in the queue
[22:26] <NCommander> nxvl, how's your shell scrpiting?
[22:31] <nxvl> cjwatson: yes, sleep tight!
[22:32] <nxvl> NCommander: shoot
[22:58] <slangasek> NCommander: fails for the case of gnome-www-browser -> abrowser.
[22:58] <NCommander> nxvl, http://pastebin.ca/1219253
[22:58] <slangasek> NCommander: I really did have a reason for specifying the fix that I did.
[23:03]  * NCommander feels lost
[23:03] <NCommander> Wait
[23:03] <NCommander> hrm
[23:04]  * NCommander gets it!
[23:20] <NCommander> slangasek, one problem with your idea. x-www-browser -> firefox-3.0/abrowser -> /usr/lib/firefox-$VERSION/firefox.sh
[23:20] <NCommander> (well, x-www-browser -> /etc/alternates/x-www-browser -> *)
[23:20] <slangasek> I don't think you've understood my idea yet
[23:20] <NCommander> I think your right
[23:21] <NCommander> Oh, I see
[23:21] <NCommander> I missed the "a matching name is found"
[23:25] <NCommander> Hrm
[23:25] <NCommander> abrowser still has Mozilla Firefox branding
[23:25] <slangasek> I have a patch here for it; I'll push it to the bug
[23:26] <NCommander> Oh, you do?
[23:26]  * NCommander just finished fixing his patch
[23:26] <NCommander> oh well, it was a good experience in shell scripting
[23:26] <slangasek> I do now, yes
[23:26] <NCommander> Sorry for the duplication of effort, but at least the bug gets resolved, and that's what counts
[23:29] <slangasek> NCommander: patch posted; please test
[23:31] <NCommander> slangasek, probably a stupid question, but /usr/lib/firefox-$VER/firefox will exist even if only abrowser is installed, right?
[23:32] <slangasek> that file appears to belong to the firefox-3.0 package, so probably not?
[23:33] <NCommander> Your call of last resort should do a sanity check to see that $LIBDIR/firefox exists, and then try $LIBDIR/abrowser before bombing out
[23:34] <cody-somerville> oh noes
[23:34]  * NCommander is test building your package as we speak
[23:34] <cody-somerville> It should try icemonkey or whatever it is called too
[23:34] <slangasek> it won't fail for the case where the called link is, or points to, abrowser
[23:34] <slangasek> the last-resort is only ever reached if the caller has done something very wrong
[23:35] <NCommander> I'm just noting a case that for whatever reason someone links to firefox.sh directly, so ...
[23:35] <NCommander> Yeah, pretty much
[23:35]  * NCommander notes that abrowser REALLY needs a better icon
[23:36] <slangasek> and actually, it appears that abrowser Depends: firefox-3.0, so even that isn't really a concern currently
[23:37] <wgrant> firefox depends upon firefox-3.0-branding, which is the one with the nasty bits.
[23:37]  * NCommander nods
[23:38] <NCommander> Just out of idle curosity, slangasek, do you use abrowser or firefox?
[23:38]  * ogra sighs ... debian is such a pain if you are used to ubuntu
[23:38] <slangasek> firefox
[23:39] <NCommander> slangasek, your fix appears to work fine
[23:40] <NCommander> (I can use x-www-browser and sensible-browser without any issues and abrowser pops up)
[23:40] <NCommander> wgrant, what about you?
[23:41] <NCommander> slangasek, I commented on the bug
[23:48]  * slangasek nods
[23:48] <NCommander> slangasek, I envy your shell scrpiting abiltiies; any tips on where I can learn better scripting?
[23:49] <slangasek> hmm, absorb the entire archive of debian-devel through your skin, perhaps :)
[23:49] <wgrant> NCommander: I use abrowser
[23:49] <slangasek> but probably applying a joeyh pattern filter first
[23:49] <wgrant> Hah.
[23:50] <NCommander> slangasek, as soon as we get an open source time machine, I shall ;-)
[23:50] <slangasek> time machine?
[23:50] <NCommander> wgrant, are you agreed with me that abrowser needs better icons?
[23:50] <NCommander> slangasek, I'd like to go back intime and sit in on #debian-devel :-)
[23:50] <wgrant> NCommander: I don't think it's too bad, actually.
[23:51] <NCommander> I can't believe I'm the one saying this, but its too blue :-P
[23:51] <slangasek> NCommander: I was referring to the mailing list
[23:51] <NCommander> slangasek, ah. Maybe I'll sit aside and read the entire archive one day
[23:52] <slangasek> that's certainly a long way to go about it, though.  Alternatively, if Ian Jackson has ever written a shell scripting guide, that would be a good starting point too.
[23:52] <slangasek> and probably only a third as long ;-)
[23:52] <NCommander> lol
[23:52] <NCommander> Hrm
[23:52] <NCommander> Things I find frustating
[23:52] <NCommander> Its impossible to describe a song over the internet if you don't know the name
[23:53] <NCommander> er
[23:53] <NCommander> wrong channel
[23:53] <NCommander> But true
[23:53] <NCommander> slangasek, the longest thing I ever read was the entire hurd-devel archive
[23:56] <NCommander> ogra, why is Debian a pain compared to Ubuntu?
[23:57] <ogra> well, its starts with /sbin not being in any path
[23:57]  * ogra is playing with a debian port on his n800, where typing is massively painful and they didnt manage to give *any* function to the keypad
[23:58] <NCommander> ogra, sounds like an Ubuntu port to ARM is in order
[23:58] <ogra> its only fou silly keycodes to make it work as joystick, sigh
[23:58] <ogra> *four
[23:58] <ogra> not yet
[23:58] <ogra> there is mojo.handelds.rog though
[23:58] <ogra> *org
[23:59] <slangasek> ogra: what are you missing being able to run from /sbin?
[23:59] <slangasek> I think the /sbin in the default path only makes sense because of sudo-by-default
[23:59] <ogra> well, ifup and ifdown
[23:59] <slangasek> which you can't run as a non-root user anyway?
[23:59] <ogra> if you type with a pen giving the full path is just a pain


[19:30] <DS-McGuire> Hello! I have requested to join this group on launchpad. I live in Cwmbran in Wales.


[08:49] <oscarf> Does anyone know how to troubleshoot this error: "cannot create relation state tracker: cannot remove persisted state, relation X has members"?
[08:51] <oscarf> The complete error is like this: "ERROR juju.worker.dependency engine.go:671 "uniter" manifold worker returned unexpected error: failed to initialize uniter for "unit-X-1": cannot create relation state tracker: cannot remove persisted state, relation X has members"
[08:57] <achilleasa> oscarf: which version of juju are you using?
[08:59] <oscarf> achilleasa: if I do "juju status" for the affected model it says 2.8.1
[09:03] <achilleasa> and the controller?
[09:04] <oscarf> achilleasa: also 2.8.1
[09:06] <oscarf> for the affected model, "Agent" says "failed" for the affected unit. It happened after I removed a unit it had a relation to.
[09:12] <achilleasa> oscarf: how did you remove the other unit? juju remove-unit?
[09:13] <oscarf> achilleasa: yes, remove-unit
[09:13] <achilleasa> without --force, right?
[09:13] <oscarf> achilleasa: yes, without --force
[09:15] <achilleasa> and when did you upgrade to 2.8.1?
[09:16] <oscarf> achilleasa: prior to doing remove-unit, I mean long time ago
[09:17] <achilleasa> and was that relation already established prior to the upgrade? I believe you might be experiencing a variant of https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju/+bug/1890828 (got fixed in 2.8.2)
[09:17] <mup> Bug #1890828: relation data lost during upgrade to juju 2.8.1  <upgrade-juju> <juju:Fix Released by hmlanigan> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1890828>
[09:20] <achilleasa> we might be able to get the unit agent to start if we edit its local state on disk to remove the gone member ID
[09:21] <achilleasa> is that a production unit?
[09:21] <oscarf> achilleasa: it's not on a production model yet, just on a test model
[09:22] <oscarf> achilleasa: I think the agent is actually running, but I'm not sure
[09:22] <oscarf> when I run "ps aux | grep juju" I see: /var/lib/juju/tools/unit-X-1/jujud unit --data-dir /var/lib/juju --unit-name X/1 --debug
[09:24] <achilleasa> but it still shows up in failed state in juju status?
[09:25] <oscarf> yes
[09:25] <oscarf> when I do "systemcel status X/1" it also shows it's up and running
[09:25] <oscarf> systemctl
[09:25] <achilleasa> the uniter is one of the workers that the agent starts. It looks like it keeps starting and crashing.
[09:26] <achilleasa> Can you `juju ssh` into the unit's machine?
[09:26] <oscarf> yes, sure. I'm already inside the machine
[09:26] <achilleasa> we can try to patch the local state, restart the agent and then it should work (you should also upgrade to at least 2.8.2 after)
[09:26] <oscarf> that would be great
[09:26] <achilleasa> ok, give me 1 min to get a local controller running
[09:28] <oscarf> ok
[09:39] <oscarf> achilleasa: do you know how I can do the "patch the local state"?
[09:40] <achilleasa> so, first you need to systemcl stop the agent
[09:41] <achilleasa> then you need to find the relation state data in /var/lib/juju/ (since 2.8 this is maintained by the controller so I am bootstrapping an older controller to find the exact path for you)
[09:41] <oscarf> achilleasa: thanks, I really appreciate your help
[09:44] <oscarf> I have executed "systemctl stop jujud-unit-X-1.service"
[09:49] <achilleasa> ok, can you go to /var/lib/juju/agents/unit-X-1/state/relations?
[09:51] <oscarf> I'm here now (on the node running the "failed" unit): /var/lib/juju/agents/unit-X-1/state/ but it only has two directories: "bundles" and "deployer"
[09:52] <oscarf> there is no "relations", neither file or directory
[09:52] <achilleasa> oh I see. the state has been already migrated to the controller. one sec
[09:52] <oscarf> ok
[10:03] <achilleasa> oscarf: quick question, are there any more units in the other side of the relation?
[10:04] <achilleasa> so basically, is juju status showing the application for the other side without any units?
[10:05] <oscarf> achilleasa: yes, we do have other units with relations to the unit showing a "failed" state
[10:07] <oscarf> so basically, X/1 has relation to Y, and we have multiple Y/1, Y/2, Y/3, Y/4. I removed Y/1 and after that "X/1" ended up in a "failed" agent state
[10:10] <achilleasa> ok, looks like we are going to have to do a bit of DB surgery :-(
[10:10] <achilleasa> can you try running the script from https://discourse.juju.is/t/login-into-mongodb/309?
[10:10] <oscarf> achilleasa: that was my initial feeling for this problem actually
[10:11] <oscarf> sure, I will try it now
[10:11] <achilleasa> then you need to find the doc for the broken unit by running 'db.unitstates.find().pretty()'
[10:12] <achilleasa> or even better: 'db.unitstates.find({},{"relation-state":1}).pretty()'
[10:19] <oscarf> achilleasa: hmm, but it only shows components for the controller
[10:23] <achilleasa> oscarf: that's odd... so no entries for your model at all? (mongo paginates so you may have to type 'it' to see more)
[10:25] <achilleasa> or db.unitstates.find({"model-uuid":"$your-model"},{"relation-state":1}).pretty()
[10:26] <achilleasa> because the lack of the folders above from the unit's machine means that their contents have been migrated to the controller
[10:27] <oscarf> maybe I'm not on the right node, let me check
[10:35] <oscarf> working on to confirm the node
[10:42] <oscarf> achilleasa: sorry, this might take some time. I will try to communicate a bit with my coworker, but it's also lunch break here right now :)
[10:44] <achilleasa> oscarf: no worries. This is basically what I wanted to try https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/wrspV4y4bp/
[10:45] <achilleasa> I will be around for the next 6h so feel free to ping me when you get access to mongo
[10:46] <oscarf> achilleasa: thanks, I will try it as soon as I have figured out the nodes
[11:03] <stickupkid> achilleasa, https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/12138 CR
[14:11] <oscarf> achilleasa: I have identified the right controller and I'm inside the mongodb shell. can I ask, what does the number key represent inside the "relation-state" data structure?
[14:16] <achilleasa> oscarf: the keys in that map are relation IDs
[14:16] <hml> stickupkid_: i had to push a test fix to the refresh polish pr, only test code changed.
[14:17] <achilleasa> oscarf: make sure to copy the original value somewhere before making the change just in case you need to revert the change
[14:21] <oscarf> achilleasa: I can see that the unit I removed is still listed in the yaml code for the key. so I think that is the problem
[14:34] <achilleasa> oscarf: yes, I think if you remove that entry as I suggested in the pastebin and then restart the uniter that should do the trick
[14:34] <achilleasa> s/uniter/agent
[14:34] <oscarf> achilleasa: in the code that you provided, should I replace $set with something?
[14:34] <achilleasa> oscarf: the part after the colon should be the replacement value with the gone unit removed
[14:35] <achilleasa> (in the example I removed 'wordrpess/0:  1\n')
[14:36] <achilleasa> don't forget to replace the "_id" bit with the appropriate ID for the document you are editing
[14:36] <oscarf> achilleasa: okay, but I don't need to change "$set"?
[14:36] <achilleasa> ah, no. that's a mongo command
[14:38] <oscarf> achilleasa: aha okay
[14:41] <oscarf> achilleasa: what is the logic behind the relation-state.1?
[14:41] <oscarf> I mean, why the .1?
[14:42] <achilleasa> this is because relation-state is a nested document and the query uses the dot notation to target it for the update
[14:43] <achilleasa> more precisely, relation-state is a map of nested documents
[14:45] <oscarf> achilleasa: aha, I see
[14:46] <achilleasa> you will need to replace the '.1' with the key that you got when you displayed the original doc
[14:49] <oscarf> oh
[14:49] <oscarf> the relationship id?
[14:50] <achilleasa> when you do the find query you need to find the entry in relation-state and use its key in the following $set query (in my example the key was "1")
[14:51] <achilleasa> (you will also see it inside the yaml blob as the first entry 'id: X')
[14:51] <oscarf> ah, right
[14:54] <oscarf> I managed to update the right key
[14:55] <achilleasa> cool, try to restart the unit agent
[15:02] <oscarf> it still doesn't want to play :/ still saying the agent is "failed" in "juju status". but looking at the error message it complains about relation 26
[15:03] <achilleasa> same unit?
[15:03] <achilleasa> can you share the full error message?
[15:03] <oscarf> sure wait
[15:04] <oscarf> 2020-10-15 15:03:22 ERROR juju.worker.dependency engine.go:671 "uniter" manifold worker returned unexpected error: failed to initialize uniter for "unit-X": cannot create relation state tracker: cannot remove persisted state, relation 26 has members
[15:04] <oscarf> 2020-10-15 15:03:22 ERROR juju.worker.dependency engine.go:671 "log-sender" manifold worker returned unexpected error: cannot send log message: websocket: close sent
[15:04] <achilleasa> ok, so this is a different relation than the one that failed before right?
[15:05] <oscarf> no, this is the same one all the time
[15:05] <oscarf> but the key I changed in mongodb had a different number, so may be it is not related then
[15:05] <achilleasa> can you double-check the rest of the entries in the relation-state map to see if the deleted unit shows up elsewhere?
[15:05] <oscarf> (but that key still listed the unit I removed as a value)
[15:07] <oscarf> and the relation-state map is shown using "db.unitstates.find", right?
[15:07] <achilleasa> yes, it's the first query in the pastebin link
[15:07] <oscarf> going over it now carefully
[15:08] <achilleasa> make sure to shutdown the agent before changing the db though
[15:19] <oscarf> I don't see the units I deleted, but I do see a relationship withg ID 26 (same as in the error message) that I'm not sure should be there
[15:21] <oscarf> maybe I should juse delete relation 26?
[15:24] <achilleasa> hml: are you around to lend in a hand with this problem? ^^^
[15:25] <oscarf> I think I just need some advice how to design a safe deletion query
[15:25] <hml> achilleasa: otp right now… will check back after
[15:26] <oscarf> I found the $unset operator..
[15:38] <oscarf> I think it worked
[15:38] <oscarf> I deleted relation 26 and restarted the agent.. no more "failed" state
[15:38] <achilleasa> so everything is green in the juju status?
[15:38] <oscarf> yes
[15:39] <achilleasa> awesome!
[15:39] <oscarf> thanks for your help
[15:40] <oscarf> this would have been harder without it
[15:55] <hml> achilleasa:  all good here yes?
[15:57] <achilleasa> hml: seems so :-) a variant of the race when migrating 2.7.x uniter state to the controller
[15:57] <achilleasa> there was a phantom unit in the member list for a relation
[15:57] <achilleasa> and the uniter refused to start
[15:58] <hml> achilleasa: huh, wonder how that happened… was something else giong on at the same time as the upgrade?
[16:00] <achilleasa> looks like it got triggered after an upgrade and remove-unit (there were still other units in the relation)
[16:00] <achilleasa> (that is on a 2.8.1)
[16:00] <hml> interesting
[23:51] <kelvinliu> tlm: https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/12141 got this pr to fix the primary SA issue, could u take a look? ty
[23:56] <kelvinliu> or wallyworld hpidcock anyone free, +1 plz ty
[23:56] <hpidcock> sure
[23:57] <wallyworld> looking
[23:58] <hpidcock> kelvinliu: LGTM
[23:58] <wallyworld> kelvinliu: so it was a regression from 2.7?


[14:22] <ssweeny> ChinnoDog: yes i bought the bundle
[14:22] <ssweeny> haven't played any of them yet
[15:11] <BeckySanderlin`x> A special message for Internet insomniacs. - [http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1944730 ]
[15:11] <PennBot> Title: Very Mary-Kate: Sexy Time - CollegeHumor video (at www.collegehumor.com)
[15:14] <BeckySanderlin`x> TYPO: A special message for Internet insomniacs. - [http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1944737 ]
[15:14] <PennBot> Title: GO TO SLEEP! - CollegeHumor video (at www.collegehumor.com)
[16:13] <ssweeny> ChinnoDog: the bundle is a bit of a cheat though since Osmos was also in the first bundle
[16:14] <ChinnoDog> ooh. double_billing--
[16:14] <ChinnoDog> but still
[16:14] <ChinnoDog> braid++
[16:15] <ChinnoDog> I guess since they are letting you donate it is mostly irrelevant. Just donate based on new stuff you get.
[16:15] <ChinnoDog> also
[16:15] <ChinnoDog> braid_soundtrack++
[16:16] <ssweeny> yess
[16:17] <ChinnoDog> I went to Magnatune and listened to the CDs those tracks came from. I really like them.
[16:38] <maco> braid?!
[16:38] <maco> braid is in the bundle?
[16:39] <maco> and it runs on linux? without wine?
[16:39] <ChinnoDog> ssweeny: does it use wine?
[16:40] <maco> i considered buying the windows version and crossing my fingers on wine because it was so fun on my friend's xbox
[16:44] <ssweeny> ChinnoDog: as far as i can tell it runs natively
[16:44] <ssweeny> but i've heard that the windows version works in wine
[16:44] <ssweeny> the guy talked about a linux port months ago and i guess he came through
[16:55] <andrew> This wait until my lunch break is taking forever
[17:06] <andrew> Meh, it's not like i'm getting much work done in the mean time waiting for lunch
[17:09] <andrew> 81 miunutes
[17:09] <andrew> meh
[17:12] <BeckySanderlin`x> so this is what productivity looks like.
[17:21] <andrew> BeckySanderlin`x: I can't help the fact that there is a CR-48 sitting next to my desk.
[17:30] <andrew> ohh fancy
[17:30] <andrew> http://i.imgur.com/We0o4.jpg
[20:43] <jthan> andrew: whre'd you get that?
[20:43] <jthan> where*
[20:44] <andrew> get what?
[20:44] <jthan> The cr-48
[20:44] <andrew> the UPS people delivered it to me
[20:44] <jthan> That's not as helpful as I'd have hoped
[20:44] <andrew> and before that, I filled out a form
[20:44] <andrew> http://www.google.com/chromeos/pilot-program.html
[20:44] <PennBot> Title: Pilot Program - Chrome OS (at www.google.com)
[20:45] <andrew> There was no middle step, no "hey, it's on the way", no nothing
[20:47] <andrew> jthan: Is that a bit more helpful?
[20:47] <jthan> I see.
[20:53] <jthan> How'd you get selected?
[20:53] <jthan> Kids...
[20:53]  * jthan has instant jealousy
[20:54] <jthan> ssweeny: ChinnoDog: What's braid?
[20:54] <jthan> time manipulation..
[20:58] <andrew> jthan: dunno, my hopes were down until it showed up
[20:59] <jthan> Lol. They're supposed to tell you if you've been selected.
[20:59] <andrew> Said who?
[20:59] <jthan> The survey
[20:59] <andrew> they did tell me that i was selected, when I opened it up, there was a nice letter on the screen for me
[21:00] <jthan> Lol.
[21:53] <BeckySanderlin`x> NSFW : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xc_BJxdDgg
[21:53] <PennBot> Title: YouTube - Wendy Ho - Poop Noodle - HOfficial video (at www.youtube.com)
[22:16] <MutantTurkey> somehow i think posting NSFW in a SWF channel isn't encouraged.
[22:16] <MutantTurkey> but at least you have the decency to say NSFW.
[22:20] <ssweeny> if you post a NSFW link in a SWF channel, is that channel really still SFW?
[22:20]  * ssweeny goes off to meditate
[22:22] <MutantTurkey> philosoraptor moment!


[10:12] <zzarr> hello!
[10:12] <zzarr> I have a development board running Ubuntu 16.04
[10:14] <zzarr> I have a connection through the debug UART and ssh through a WiFi interface
[10:14] <zzarr> so, the dhcp works like it should
[10:15] <zzarr> but even when I write echo "nameserver <IP_ADDRESS>" > /etc/resolv.conf I can't run apt update
[10:18] <zzarr> there's no ping command and no nslookup
[10:22] <zzarr> when I run 'nmcli device show wlan0 | grep IP4.DNS' I can see that the dns is <IP_ADDRESS> which is my router
[10:22] <zzarr> (same dns as this computer uses)
[10:29] <ogra_> ubuntu uses resolvconf ... have a look at amn resolvconf
[10:29] <ogra_> *man
[10:30] <ogra_>  /etc/resolv.conf is usually just a symlink to the generated resolv.conf
[10:40] <zzarr> thanks ogra_ I will have a look
[10:53] <zzarr> it looks like this for me 'resolv.conf -> /var/run/NetworkManager/resolv.conf'
[10:54] <zzarr> the resolvconf directory only contains update-libc.d which only contains some avahi related file
[11:00] <zzarr> when I run apt update it tries to connect to <IP_ADDRESS> which do not exist in my network
[11:00] <zzarr> '0% [Connecting to <IP_ADDRESS> (<IP_ADDRESS>)]'
[11:09] <zzarr> it's a beta version of Ubuntu 16.04 for Firefly Rk3288 I'm running (from the eMMc on a Firefly Rk3288 Plus)
[17:50] <pvl1> hey all, im running a pcduino3b. can i upgrade the kernel and ubuntu nand, while running ubuntu from nand?
[17:50] <pvl1> i know i can do it with a microsd card...


[08:33] <JamesTait> Good morning, people, happy Walk to Work Day! :-D
[11:37] <nikth> Hey guys , I have a question about the music streaming offer (20GB for 6 months and music streaming)
[11:40] <nikth> When the offer expires , I mean when the time for renew comes , what will happen? How the renew can be done ? If I purchase  one more song , will this renew my subscription (and storage of course) for another 6 months ?
[11:41] <nikth> OR , I must buy the storage (20GB) with the common purchase plan (monthly , yearly) ?
[12:14] <chaselivingston> nikth: hi, you'll need to either purchase a music streaming subscription, or a storage pack if storage is all you need
[12:39] <nikth> chaselivingston, to make this clear , I have already a music streaming subscription that is about to expire in a few days . If I buy one more song from Ubuntu Music Store will this renew my subscription for another 6 months ?
[12:39] <chaselivingston> nikth: do you have the free 6 month promotion currently?
[12:39] <nikth> Yes chaselivingston
[12:39] <chaselivingston> nikth: that's a one time thing, buying another song will not continually renew it
[12:40] <nikth> chaselivingston, Ah.. OK. Thanks for the info. That is all I wanted to know.
[12:40] <chaselivingston> nikth: no problem!
[16:51] <Encrypt> Good evening / morning everybody !
[16:54] <Encrypt> I'm wondering something about the Ubuntu One purchases...
[16:54] <Encrypt> Do you know how much Canonical earns?
[17:00] <Encrypt> Since I'd be interested in creating an UbuntuOne account and download Music if this finances the Ubuntu Project :)
[17:05] <Encrypt> Lindsey Stirling Songs are not available :(
[17:22] <dobey> 0 < X < infinity
[17:22] <Encrypt> Ok :þ
[17:23] <dobey> but yes, buying music or ubuntu one storage, or music streaming, or apps in software-center, all help fund ubuntu
[17:35] <Encrypt> dobey, Thanks for your answer :)


[18:46] <ideamonk> Guys whats the difference between a symbolic link and a hard link ?
[18:46] <nhandler> ideamonk: Try #ubuntu for support
[18:47] <ikt> http://linuxgazette.net/105/pitcher.html
[18:52] <ideamonk> ikt, thx
[18:52] <ikt> :)