[08:52] <tumbleweed> bdrung: native sync sponsorship landed this morning. u-d-t upload time
[09:04] <Laney> sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
[09:05]  * micahg must have missed some mails
[09:05] <Laney> all on the bug
[09:07] <Laney> boo, none in the queue
[09:10] <tumbleweed> there's no visual indication yet
[09:10] <tumbleweed> I did two syncs in oneiric on qastaging (one sponsored), but they both show up as me in the queue
[09:13] <DktrKranz> could you please tell me which bug #, so I can give it a read?
[09:13] <Laney> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/827555
[09:13] <DktrKranz> ty
[09:14] <Laney> if you want you can sync pdfmod -s laney and see how that turns out
[09:15]  * Laney shower
[09:34] <elgaton> micahg: Hi again
[09:34] <micahg> hi elgaton
[09:36] <elgaton> micahg: Thanks for reviewing the bug - I'm creating the new debdiff that just fixes the missing dependency. I've got two questions: 1) Do I still need to edit the Maintainer field? 2) Should I use version number <IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu2.5 (to mark the fact that some minor edits I made in the Precise version are not there) instead of <IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu3?
[09:37] <elgaton> (For reference: it's bug #877776)
[09:39] <micahg> elgaton: yeah, update-maintainer is fine, version should be <IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu2.1
[09:40] <elgaton> micahg: OK, so I'll just leave the other debian/control and debian/rules out - thanks again, I'm new at patching :)
[09:40] <micahg> elgaton: thanks for your work, it's not a problem
[09:41] <micahg> ugh, openbve is yet another Ubuntu package not in Debian...
[09:42] <elgaton> I know (had a look at Debian's repos before submitting the original fix)
[09:42] <micahg> Laney: would openbve be something for cli-mono?
[09:46] <Laney> micahg: yes, I tried to see if sladen was interested in that
[09:49] <elgaton> OK, patch done
[09:49]  * Elbrus is wondering how long it takes before a package in Debian is automatically synced to Precise (we are far from DebianImportFreeze)
[09:49] <Laney> Elbrus: we are syncing from testing, so shortly after it arrives there
[09:50] <Elbrus> Laney: ok, but in the past we synced from testing and even experimental. Is that different for LTS?
[09:51] <Laney> I assume you mean unstable, and yes the default is different but we can still sync from there if needed
[09:51] <Laney> (experimental syncs always work like that)
[09:51]  * Elbrus ment unstable yes.
[09:52] <Elbrus> Should this difference be mentioned on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianImportFreeze?
[09:53] <Elbrus> (question mark shouldn't have been in the url)
[10:00] <Laney> we have LTSDebianImportFreeze on the wiki too, so either link to that or fix that page to not say "unstable" at all
[10:02] <Elbrus> Mainly the link in PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule should be changed then.
[10:03] <Elbrus> But I am asked at the top of that page to not change the page.
[10:05] <Laney> I'll get it sorted, thanks for pointing it out
[10:46] <tumbleweed> Laney: tested a sync yet?
[10:46] <Laney> nope
[10:46] <Laney> do pdfmod with me if you like
[10:46] <tumbleweed> ok
[10:47]  * Laney checks it builds :P
[10:50] <tumbleweed> haven't managed to do it yet
[10:50] <Laney> seems to work
[10:50] <tumbleweed> at university, where connectivity is ... interesting...
[10:50] <tumbleweed> you saying it's been synced?
[10:50] <Laney> so, what do we expect? mail to me and you and -changes mail saying my name?
[10:50] <Laney> no, builds
[10:51] <tumbleweed> ah, good, didn't check that :P
[10:51] <Laney> we can do it the other way round if that would be easier
[10:53] <tumbleweed> no, doing it now
[10:53] <tumbleweed> tsocks ftw
[10:53] <Laney> k
[10:53] <tumbleweed> done
[10:54] <Laney> hrm
[10:54] <Laney> it does appear on my synchronised packages
[10:55] <Laney> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/precise-changes/2011-December/004614.html
[10:55] <Laney> looks good
[10:56] <tumbleweed> LGTM
[10:57] <Laney> did you get mail?
[10:59] <tumbleweed> yes
[10:59]  * tumbleweed cuts an upload
[11:00] <Laney> i did not
[11:00] <Laney> do you agree that i should have?
[11:00] <tumbleweed> please poke bigjools about that
[11:00] <tumbleweed> yes, you should have
[11:06] <Laney> rock
[11:08]  * micahg also just filed bug 902107 which is tangentially related
[11:09] <Laney> yeah I'm pretty sure that is known
[11:09] <Laney> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/861488
[11:18] <micahg> Laney: thanks
[11:34] <Laney> tumbleweed: how backportable is this?
[11:35] <Laney> could do with being announced but it should be in a stable release first
[11:42] <sladen> micahg: Laney: yeah, sorry
[11:42] <sladen> micahg: Laney: (re: openbve)
[12:27] <tumbleweed> Laney: I'll investigate backportability. There are some bits of recent ubuntu-dev-tools that depend on recent distro-info, so they may have to be backported together
[12:40] <bdrung> tumbleweed: only sponsor-patch should use the new sponsorship stuff now
[12:41] <tumbleweed> bdrung: ah, right, sorry, didn't wait for that
[12:41] <tumbleweed> that's a relatively easy patch, too
[12:43] <bdrung> tumbleweed: i am happy to review it :)
[12:44] <tumbleweed> bdrung: the patch I waved at you last night was for not sorting .install files when they are executable (see debian-devel recently...)
[12:45] <bdrung> tumbleweed: ah ok. .install being an executable is a very, very stupid idea
[12:45] <tumbleweed> most people seem to agree on that
[12:45] <tumbleweed> maybe this will go away before the next devscripts upload :P
[12:47] <bdrung> tumbleweed: let's wait for a final decision on that and then apply your patch
[12:48] <tumbleweed> well, it's already out in the wild, but yes, there is backlash
[12:48]  * tumbleweed hopes the people who use it will sort their scripts :)
[12:52] <bdrung> tumbleweed: we somehow need to punish people who are using the new .install scripts ;)
[13:01] <l3on> Hi all... Where can I find instruction to make a removal request ?
[13:03] <tumbleweed> l3on: it's largey common sense
[13:03] <l3on> Ah ok :)
[13:03] <tumbleweed> check reverse dependencies (there's a tool for that in recent ubuntu-dev-tools), and file a bug againts the package
[13:03] <tumbleweed> subscribe ubuntu-sponsors like usual
[13:04] <tumbleweed> if it needs to be blacklisted, say that too
[13:13] <l3on> tumbleweed, thanks a lot
[13:13] <l3on> I'm running this:
[13:13] <l3on> $ reverse-build-depends gtk-led-askpass
[13:14] <l3on> but..
[13:14] <l3on> reverse-build-depends: unable to find sources files.
[13:14] <l3on> Did you forget to run apt-get update (or add --update to this command)? at /usr/bin/reverse-build-depends line 236.
[13:14] <l3on> okok, cache is updated
[13:17] <l3on> oh god, yes.. by default it looks for precise
[13:17] <l3on> and I don't have deb-src entry for precise in my repo!
[13:17] <l3on> :)
[13:20] <l3on> broder, bug 896902 updated as you said in comment
[15:20] <tumbleweed> l3on: I was talking about reverse-depends. You want to check for reverts dependencies and build dependencies
[15:20] <tumbleweed> l3on: btw, removals that happened in debian don't need to be requested in Ubuntu
[16:07] <psusi> so if I want to convert a 1.0 package that is already using quilt to 3.0 (quilt), I just have to drop all the quilt stuff from debian/rules, since dpkg-source already applies them?
[16:07] <tumbleweed> psusi: is it your package?
[16:08] <tumbleweed> (we don't make changes like that to debian packages)
[16:09] <psusi> it's abandoned in debian and I'm attemping to overhaul it to the new upstream release ( well, a year old, debian didn't update the last 3 releases beacuse they put a -3 in the upstream version ), and so I'm trying to convert it to 3.0 in the process and have a sponsor upload it
[16:09] <psusi> err, orphaned
[16:09] <tumbleweed> yay
[16:10] <tumbleweed> yup, drop all the quilt stuff from rules
[16:10] <tumbleweed> and the README.source, if it talks about quilt
[16:11] <psusi> k
[16:12] <psusi> that leads me to another question... it also was being maintained in git.. I can't find mention of Vcs-Git: in the debian policy manual
[16:13] <psusi> I'm thinking I want to drop that header?
[16:13] <tumbleweed> IIRC it's in another document. dev-ref?
[16:13] <tumbleweed> no, you want to keep it
[16:13] <tumbleweed> psusi: do you have access to its git repo?
[16:14] <psusi> no
[16:15] <tumbleweed> is it in collab-maint?
[16:15] <psusi> it is git://git.debian.org/git/users/derevko-guest/dmraid.git
[16:15] <tumbleweed> ah, a personal git repo
[16:16] <psusi> yea... of the previous maintainer that orphaned it...
[16:16] <tumbleweed> I suggest applying for collab-maint membership, and hosting the repo there
[16:16] <psusi> hrm... what advantage is there to keeping it in git?
[16:16] <tumbleweed> well, presumably it already has git history
[16:17] <psusi> some... but it's not like it's imported the upstream history
[16:17] <tumbleweed> git seems to be the most popular VCS in debian these days, but yes, you can use anything
[16:17] <psusi> just the debianization of the package and 2 patches
[16:18] <tumbleweed> not importing upstream history is fairly common
[16:19] <psusi> so what do you gain keeping it in git?  do they have a system that auto builds the source package when you push to the git repo or something?
[16:19] <tumbleweed> what are you proposing? not keeping it in a VCS at all?
[16:19] <psusi> yea
[16:19]  * tumbleweed much prefers having my packages in VCS
[16:19] <tumbleweed> it means I don't need to upload them for every tiny tweak
[16:19] <psusi> well, lp will import it into bzr ;)
[16:20] <tumbleweed> I can just collect those up, and upload when I'm ready
[16:20] <broder> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/best-pkging-practices.html#bpp-vcs by the way
[16:20] <tumbleweed> + you can collaborate with others
[16:22] <Laney> diffing becomes much easier, blame works
[16:22]  * Laney forgot about the cake
[16:22] <Laney> first class++
[16:23] <tumbleweed> yeah, a package is not that different to code, right? And who wouldn't use a VCS for that?
[16:23] <tumbleweed> anything of any importance on my machine is in VCS (or should be, but I haven't got around to it yet)
[16:23] <psusi> lp will auto import it into bzr though and if I mostly work with that, then is there any advantage to having a git repo as well for the debian version?
[16:24] <psusi> ohh, you get more history granularity than released versions?
[16:24] <tumbleweed> if you are maintaing it in Debian, you'll probably not find yourself using the UDD branches much
[16:24] <psusi> which is all you get with the bzr auto importer right?
[16:24] <psusi> hrm...
[16:24] <tumbleweed> yes, you can have as much granularity as you want
[16:24] <Laney> if you're used to bzr then you can use that
[16:24]  * tumbleweed has packages in Debian, in bzr
[16:25]  * Laney sprinkles the holy water
[16:25] <psusi> I'm fairly abidexterous... most of the upstreams I work with use git, like the kernel...
[16:25] <psusi> I think I like git a little better, but they are pretty close
[16:25] <tumbleweed> yeah, they have different advantages
[16:26] <psusi> my kernel git repo has half a dozen remotes and several local branches that consist of various merges of the remotes and local patches, hehe
[16:26] <Laney> vcs-pkg.org is interesting
[16:27] <Laney> if you like that kind of thing
[16:27] <psusi> it would be nice to use git to maintain the package and import the full git hisotry from upstream, but alas... upstream for dmraid is still using CVS!
[16:28]  * tumbleweed feels for them
[16:28] <psusi> gag me with a spoon
[17:06] <oxullo> Dear MOTUs, I'm humbly seeking for answers which I fear I couldn't find on ubuntu docs. Since natty I have 5 packages ready for upload. They're python-based multitouch games. I tried to follow the REVU path for oneiric and now I updated the packages for precise, but I'm deceived by the message towering on the REVU pages headers, claiming that REVU is not any longer a preferred path for new packages. What I'm going to do is to upload the pac
[17:06] <oxullo> files to the single bug entries and subscribe ubuntu-sponsors. Is this the correct way? thanks in advance
[17:07] <oxullo> bug entries: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/735782 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/735760 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/735764 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/735773 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/735777
[17:07] <tumbleweed> as you might have noticed, people don't look at REVU so much, looking for new packages
[17:07] <oxullo> indeed..
[17:07] <tumbleweed> reviewing new packages is harder than reviewing most other uploads
[17:07] <tumbleweed> and lots of packages end up in universe, with nobody caring for them
[17:08] <tumbleweed> so, there isn't much motivation to add to that...
[17:08] <tumbleweed> OTOH, if going through debian isn't an option, we can review those
[17:08]  * tumbleweed must still reply to your mail...
[17:09] <psusi> so solibs normally have foo1.0.0 as the lib and foo1 symlinks to foo1.0.0.  I'm getting warnings now about the symbols check, and it seems to be because before the lib was 1.0.0rc16, and now it is just 1.0.0.  Was that an error the way it was done before? or should the rc16 part be in there?
[17:09] <Laney> For games, there is a combined debian-ubuntu games team. I believetheir channel is #debian-games on OFTC
[17:09] <oxullo> well, the problem with debian is that these games are based on xi 2.1 or mtdev
[17:10] <oxullo> AFAIK debian has no support for them yet
[17:10] <oxullo> or, at least, this was the reason, at natty's time, to push them directly to ubuntu
[17:16] <Laney> looks like they are both in Debian now :-)
[17:16] <Laney> oh, 'add xi 2.1 support', don't know about that
[17:17] <tumbleweed> so, your best bet here is probably the sponsorship queue
[17:17] <tumbleweed> it does seem to work rather well for new packages
[17:18] <tumbleweed> of course, if you have existing sponsor-relationships with people, exploit them :P
[17:19] <oxullo> The packages have been reviewed eons ago by Chase Douglas, who showed me the path to the packaging madness :) but I'm sure he's hell of busy now
[17:19] <tumbleweed> it'd be nice if they ended up in debian eventually
[17:21] <oxullo> laney: are they supported, then? in this case I might think to change focus to debian..
[17:22] <oxullo> there's an additional point,though: these games depend on python-libavg, which has been recently removed from debian due to obsolescence
[17:22] <tumbleweed> can always be re-added
[17:23] <oxullo> so basically the best option from the ubuntu perspective is always to get the packages to be synced from debian
[17:24] <tumbleweed> that's the best for everybody
[17:24] <tumbleweed> we like to move a little faster in ubuntu, so we often jump ahead, but we push everything we can back up
[17:30] <oxullo> ok, xi 2.1is in debian sid. so, just to summarize it up: if I find a couple of motus who would spend time into reviewing the packages I might be able to have them pushed in ubuntu for precise. Otherwise, debian way, out with wheezy and sync to ubuntu
[17:31] <tumbleweed> if it's there, why not go through debian now?
[17:36] <oxullo> ah, right, ubuntu syncs from sid.. ok, I'll get back to the docs, then (sigh). Thanks for your time, I'll be probably coming back :)
[17:37] <tumbleweed> well, we sync from testing during LTSs
[17:37] <tumbleweed> but we can sync from unstable when we want to
[17:44] <oxullo> so no prob for precise. And I have (theoretically) time up to Jan 13th, right?
[17:46] <tumbleweed> later, if necessary
[17:48] <blair> boost1.48 was added to debian around dec 2 and it's not in ubuntu yet, should i do a sync request?
[17:49] <tumbleweed> blair: it hasn't got into testing yet
[17:50] <tumbleweed> (and we aren't planning on doing a boost transition this cycle, that I know of)
[17:50] <tumbleweed> but it should get in
[17:50] <blair> it's a brand new package name, so (i think) it wouldn't conflict with the existing boosts
[17:51] <tumbleweed> yes, it doesn't
[17:51] <tumbleweed> blair: you don't have to request it, the archive admins process new packages fro mdebian, but it may taka couple of weeks
[17:51] <tumbleweed> (can be rushed, if necessary)
[17:52] <blair> i'd like to see it in before the debian import freeze
[17:52] <tumbleweed> that should happen
[17:52] <tumbleweed> if it doesn't, request the sync
[17:54] <blair> llvm-3.0 was synced over very quickly, would that be because somebody is personally interested in it?
[17:55] <tumbleweed> probably, it has a reverse dep in teh archive
[17:59] <psusi> so the binary package name is libdmraid-1.0.0.rc16.  Shouldn't the package name just be libdmraid, and it have version 1.0.0.rc16?
[18:00] <tumbleweed> no
[18:00] <psusi> why not?
[18:00] <tumbleweed> welocome to world of shared libraries
[18:00] <psusi> err, libdmraid1 rather
[18:01] <tumbleweed> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-sharedlibs.html http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/column/libpkg-guide/libpkg-guide.html
[18:01] <psusi> the symbols stuff is supposed to keep track of what minor version a symbol was added in so that linking packages can depend on the correct version right?  and only major number changes are supposed to break backward compat?
[18:01] <tumbleweed> yes, but not every upstream understands that
[18:01] <tumbleweed> most need it beaten into them...
[18:02] <psusi> so... it should be libdmraid1 iff upstream understands that?
[18:02] <tumbleweed> if they don't understand it, we should consider whether it should be packaged :P
[18:03] <psusi> so.... why isn't it an error to have the .0.0.rc16 part in the package name?
[18:03] <tumbleweed> seriously though: if it's still on 1, chances are they have as table ABI
[18:03] <tumbleweed> oh, right
[18:03] <tumbleweed> that's the soname
[18:04] <psusi> the soname should be 1.0.0 shouldn't it?
[18:04] <tumbleweed> no, because 1.0.0 isn't relased yet
[18:04] <tumbleweed> and what they currently have released isn't guaranteed to be ABI compatible with 1.0.0
[18:04] <psusi> that's why it's version is supposed to be 1.0.0.rc16
[18:04] <tumbleweed> (abi versions don't necessarily match software versions)
[18:04] <psusi> actually, it should be 1.0.0+rc16 shouldn't it?
[18:05] <tumbleweed> it could be anything, really
[18:05] <psusi> seems that's an error in the current package
[18:05] <psusi> you want it to be +rc16 so that when the final release comes, it's > the +rc16 version don't you?
[18:06] <tumbleweed> the package version prabbly should have been 1.0.0~rc16
[18:06] <tumbleweed> the soname doesn't have to sort
[18:06] <psusi> ohh, was it a ~ not a + that does that?
[18:06] <jtaylor> as a muto do I have direct access to a native arm machine?
[18:07] <tumbleweed> no, ubuntu doesn't have porterboxses for non-canonical people
[18:07] <jtaylor> k then I'll get a guet acc in debian
[18:07] <tumbleweed> jtaylor: happy to sponsor that if you need
[18:08] <psusi> yea, so package version should have been 1.0.0~rc16, soname should have been 1.0.0 shouldn't it? but the symbol file would have listed the version as 1.0.0~rc16, and the name of the lib package should be libdmraid1?
[18:09] <jtaylor> :( somebody fixed the package I wanted to fix in my first upload this weekend
[18:10] <tumbleweed> psusi: no, the soname shouldn't have been 1.0.0 unless upstream agreed with that
[18:10] <tumbleweed> psusi: upstream clearly hasn't settled on a stable abi yet
[18:10] <psusi> how do you figure?
[18:10] <psusi> they name it 1.0.0
[18:10] <tumbleweed> psusi: otherwise the soname would be less crazy
[18:10] <tumbleweed> that's the "default"
[18:11] <psusi> no, their makefile builds libdmraid1.0.0
[18:11] <psusi> it looks like the previous upstream build it as libdmraid1.so, and the debian package had a patch to make it turn into libdmraid1.0.0.rc16
[18:11] <tumbleweed> right, because they had broken their ABI
[18:12] <tumbleweed> psusi: read the docs I pointed you at
[18:12] <psusi> they who?  upstream, or debian?
[18:12] <tumbleweed> upstream
[18:12] <psusi> how do you figure they broke their abi?
[18:12] <tumbleweed> otherwise the debian maintainer whouldn't have changed the soname during the life of the package
[18:13] <psusi> he changed it because it was missing the minor number
[18:13] <psusi> upstream just called it 1, but debian wants it to be 1.0.0
[18:13] <tumbleweed> presumably because he had to
[18:13] <psusi> now upstream has fixed their makefile to build it as 1.0.0
[18:21] <blair> tumbleweed, psusi hdf5 are bad upstream since they break their ABI for patch releases, even changing #defines integer values
[18:21] <psusi> ok, so yea... ldd on the upstream binary says it is importing libdmraid.so.1, so that means the package name should be libdmraid1 shouldn't it?
[18:22] <psusi> blair: who is hdf5?
[18:22] <blair> it's a package from NCSA to store scientific data
[18:25] <tumbleweed> blair: *IF* we are using libdmraid.so.1 as the soname then the package should be libdmraid1
[18:26] <psusi> for tha tmatter, why the hell is this even a solib anyhow?  it's only used internally by dmraid
[18:32] <psusi> oh boy... the current version has /usr/lib/libdmraid.a and .so... so that means there is no abi in the soname, which is wrong, isn't it?
[18:33] <jtaylor> .a have no soname
[18:33] <tumbleweed> psusi: did you read the links?
[18:35] <psusi> tumbleweed: yea... so I'm gathering that the soname should be ( and is in the new version ) libdmraid.so.1, and therefore, the package name should be libdmraid1, but in the current version, it was just named libdmraid.so, which I guess is why the packager named the lib package libdmraid1.0.0.rc16 instead of just libdmraid1?
[18:36] <tumbleweed> psusi: my deafult reaciton is not to turst upstreams who say their soname is ... .1
[18:37] <psusi> but theoretically that is how it should be right?  and the reason that the package name isn't just 1, is beacuse the packager didn't trust the upstream to not break abi?
[18:38] <tumbleweed> probably because he could see them breaking it
[18:40] <psusi> so... I should rename the new upstream solib to 1.0.0rc16?
[18:42] <psusi> actually... if I do nothing, the name change and warnings about the .symbol file only means that packages linking to the so will depend on >= the new version, even though they might otherwise have been able to >= the old version right?  but since no packages besides dmraid link to the lib... who gives a crap?
[18:42] <tumbleweed> how fast are they changing the ABI, in incompatible ways?
[18:42] <psusi> they haven't even had a release in over a year... it's in stable maintainence mode
[18:42] <psusi> and besides, the damn lib isn't used by anyone else anyow ;)
[18:43] <jtaylor> when nothing uses it and the abi is unstable it should be a private lib
[18:43] <tumbleweed> yeah, probably
[18:43] <jtaylor> = not directly in usr/lib
[18:43] <jtaylor> but some subfolder
[18:43] <psusi> well I guess they intended for others to be able to use it, just nobody does
[18:43] <tumbleweed> that makes your life easier :)
[18:44] <psusi> theoretically I should rename the lib package to 1.0.0.rc16.3 now I guess
[18:45] <Resistance> hmm... anyone able to help me debug why backportpackage errors out?
[18:45] <psusi> but since the soname changed, it doesn't matter because either way, anyone trying to link to this package is going to depend on the new version anyhow
[18:45] <Resistance> prior to me setting DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL it worked
[18:45] <tumbleweed> psusi: you understand why the soname needs to appear in the package name?
[18:45] <tumbleweed> Resistance: what did you set them to?
[18:46] <Resistance> tumbleweed:  my name, "Thomas Ward", and my @ubuntu email<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:46] <Resistance> there's PGP keys that match that
[18:46] <tumbleweed> Resistance: and the error is?
[18:46] <Resistance> sec
[18:46] <Resistance> i'll pastebin
[18:46] <psusi> tumbleweed: because it represents the abi version... in other words, a contract that linking to any newer version of the lib that has that major number won't break you
[18:46] <psusi> right?
[18:47] <Resistance> tumbleweed: http://pastebin.com/zYzji6Gg
[18:47] <tumbleweed> psusi: what I'm really getting at is that when you bump the ABI, you need to have both packages installed simultaneously until everyone has rebuilt against the new library
[18:47] <Resistance> not sure whether something updated or not to break it, but when i didnt set DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL it never did this
[18:47] <psusi> tumbleweed: right, that too
[18:48] <tumbleweed> looks like you nderstand shared library linking :)
[18:48] <jtaylor> Resistance: missing build dependency?
[18:48] <Resistance> jtaylor:  debhelper has a build dep?
[18:48] <psusi> so you replace 1.0 with 1.1, or 1.2, and anyone looking for 1 will be happy... you go to 2.0, and you need to be able to have both 1.2 and 2.0 installed
[18:48] <tumbleweed> Resistance: make[1]: po4a: Command not found
[18:48] <psusi> because someone looking for 1 can't use 2.0
[18:49] <Resistance> hmm
[18:49] <Resistance> tumbleweed:  any idea what package provides that?
[18:49] <jtaylor> po4a
[18:49] <Resistance> heh
[18:49] <Resistance> yeah just found that
[18:49] <Resistance> thanks
[18:51] <jtaylor> hm why isn't it erroring out with a proper error message? its in the build depends
[18:53] <tumbleweed> jtaylor: this is building the source package
[18:53] <ajmitch> jtaylor: it's being called from the clean rule, probably outside the chroot
[18:53] <tumbleweed> we don't check build-deps so much for that...
[18:53] <ajmitch> you get the same problem with pbuilder
[18:55] <micahg> Resistance: which package is this?
[18:55] <micahg> oh, I see :)
[18:55] <Resistance> micahg:  backport, debhelper oneiric -> natty to fulfill the build-dep of mysql 5.5 in a backports-staging ppa
[18:56] <Resistance> and mysql 5.5 is a build-dep for php5.3.8 :/
[18:56] <micahg> Resistance: that seems wrong IMHO
[18:56] <Resistance> *shrugs*
[18:56] <micahg> that's also wrong IMHO :)
[18:56] <Resistance> micahg:  https://launchpad.net/~trekcaptainusa-tw/+archive/backports/+build/2995183  :/
[18:57] <Resistance> same in i386 https://launchpad.net/~trekcaptainusa-tw/+archive/backports/+build/2995184
[18:57] <micahg> but debhelper at least won't break anything in a stable release (at least at runtime), mysql might :)
[18:57] <ajmitch> micahg: it's because php5 runs some tests that need mysql, and there were of course some changes from 5.1 to 5.5 :)
[18:58] <micahg> ajmitch: right, but to strictly depend on one version of mysql?
[18:58] <Resistance> micahg:  also https://launchpad.net/~trekcaptainusa-tw/+archive/backports/+build/2983124
[18:58] <ajmitch> micahg: I know, it's a recent ubuntu addition
[18:59] <Resistance> micahg:  fwiw, this is why its not in the deployment PPA
[18:59]  * Resistance has one for staging and one for deployment
[19:00] <Resistance> and a standalone system nobody cares about for testing the stuff in staging :P
[19:00] <ajmitch> Resistance: I finally got 5.4 through the PPA queue if you want to test that as well
[19:00] <micahg> Resistance: mysql 5.5 isn't a hard requirement since Debian doesn't have it, so I don't think you need to be jumping through all these hoops
[19:00] <Resistance> micahg:  *shrugs*
[19:00] <blair> tumbleweed, by when should i submit the sync request for boost1.48 as we approach freeze and to give enough time for it to be synced in?
[19:00] <Resistance> micahg:  tbh my main concern was DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL
[19:00] <Resistance> also...
[19:00] <Resistance> i have a version of ZNC i modified that i cant actually get to build either :/
[19:01]  * Resistance glares evilly at his computer
[19:01] <tumbleweed> blair: DIF is the point at which it stops syncing atomatically. That doesn't mean we stop getting new packages from debian after that
[19:01] <micahg> Resistance: I'd suggest switching 5.5 for 5.1 in debian/control for the PHP backport
[19:01] <tumbleweed> blair: but yes, just after DIF is a good time to request packages that haven't made it in yet.
[19:02] <blair> ok, so be patient ;)
[19:02] <blair> and it's currently December 29th?
[19:02] <micahg> no, Jan 10
[19:02] <micahg> or 9, I can't remember
[19:02] <Resistance> micahg:  that'd imply i'd have to reupload the package for php5.3.8 after modifying it
[19:03] <micahg> Resistance: yep :)
[19:03] <micahg> but you shouldn't need the other backports
[19:03]  * Resistance is already bordering on reaching the maximum bandwidth he's allowed on the campus network
[19:03] <Resistance> :P
[19:03] <micahg> Resistance: you don't need to reupload the tarball, just the Debian part, debuild -S -sd
[19:04] <micahg> which is about 350k
[19:04] <ajmitch> & then wait 12-18 hours for it to build
[19:04] <micahg> heh, it's in dep-wait now I think, so 12-18 hours should be better  :)
[19:05] <Resistance> ajmitch:  hey, i had to wait 48 in order for the oneiric one to actually build.
[19:05]  * Resistance was very annoyed at this
[19:05] <ajmitch> Resistance: damn, that's awhile
[19:05] <Resistance> mhm
[19:05] <ajmitch> though I think backports are scored a bit lower than PPA uploads fore precise
[19:05] <micahg> 17/14 for i386/amd64 ATM
[19:05] <Resistance> i thought thats just the backports pocket target
[19:05] <Resistance> :/
[19:06]  * ajmitch took a couple of uploads for 5.4 rc2 to build for precise, thankfully it's built now
[19:14] <Resistance> ...
[19:14] <Resistance> micahg:  how can i get *just* the debian stuff out of the tarball?
[19:14] <Resistance> because the default tarball doesnt contain debian/ :/
[19:15] <Resistance> (the one i get from backportpackage -w)
[19:15] <micahg> Resistance: huh?  don't you have a local copy of the source you uploadeD?
[19:15] <Resistance> micahg:  backportpackage :/
[19:15] <Resistance> and the source tarball doesnt get extracted
[19:15] <Resistance> so when i checked it
[19:15] <micahg> yeah, backportpackage downloads it
[19:15] <Resistance> it didnt have debian/
[19:15] <micahg> Resistance: dpkg-source -x on the .dsc file
[19:15] <Resistance> would if it still existeed
[19:15] <Resistance> i was cleaning up some stuff :P
[19:15] <Resistance> accidentially'd the folder i was working in
[19:16] <micahg> Resistance: you have the tarball?
[19:16] <Resistance> in about 3 minutes i will
[19:16]  * Resistance is grabbing the source tarball as we speak :P
[19:17] <micahg> Resistance: ok, so, once you have that, in the same dir, just use pull-lp-source php5, it should see your tarball and not download it again, but pull down the debian diff/dsc file
[19:17] <Resistance> assuming dget doesnt already do that?  :p
[19:17] <Resistance> ah THERE'S debian/
[19:17] <Resistance> :P
[19:18] <micahg> ok
[19:18] <micahg> yeah, dget on the dsc would do the same thing
[19:18] <Resistance> ...
[19:18] <Resistance> this *might* be a bit interesting...
[19:18]  * Resistance sees a package name that has mysql-<blah>-5.5
[19:18] <ajmitch> fwiw, it looks like the build-depends were changed to include versions to avoid problems with upstart & the mysql postinsts
[19:18] <Resistance> which seems to depend solely on the 5.5. packages
[19:19] <Resistance> ajmitch:  would that end up with the absolute requirement of mysql 5.5?
[19:21] <ajmitch> it was first changed from mysql-server to mysql-server-core-5.1 & mysql-client-5.1, then those changed to 5.5
[19:21] <Resistance> ajmitch:  happen to know which version(s) of mysql-server-core and mysql-client are in natty?
[19:21] <ajmitch> should be 5.1
[19:22] <ajmitch> checking with rmadison now if mysql-server-core-5.1 was split out there
[19:22] <ajmitch> & it was, so you should be safe to use that
[19:23] <micahg> yeah, you probably don't want these changes either: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/85839251/php5_<IP_ADDRESS>-1ubuntu1_<IP_ADDRESS>-1ubuntu2.diff.gz
[19:26] <Resistance> micahg:  any advice would be useful before i debuild -S -sd the thing
[19:27]  * Resistance has already added a changelog entry and has already modified debian/control
[19:27] <micahg> Resistance: well, if you pulled the ubuntu2 revision from precise above, you'll want to revert those other changes as well
[19:28] <Resistance> yes i did pull from precise, ubuntu2.  any way i can easily undo a diff given the diff file?
[19:28] <Resistance> without digging around in code manually
[19:29] <micahg> Resistance: patch -R?
[19:32] <Resistance> micahg:  just hangs there :/
[19:33] <ajmitch> you'd need to pass it the patch you want to reverse
[19:33] <ajmitch> the changes are only 2 lines in setup-mysql.sh, so it's probably easier to edit that
[19:33] <Resistance> mhm
[19:33] <Resistance> ajmitch:  i know to pass it the patch ;PO
[19:33] <Resistance> but its just hanging there :p
[19:47] <aboudreault> Hi!! I'm about to create a new LXC container for my debian/ubuntu packages. Is Cowbuilder/Pbuilder still the way to go for packages building? (multi debian/ubuntu release) etc..
[20:40] <jtaylor> yes
[20:40] <jtaylor> sbuild is also nice


[00:10] <bjf> kano:  git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/linux.git linux-3.5.y
[06:22] <nuxninja> hello
[08:59] <ppisati> moin
[10:01] <apw> moin
[10:02] <smb> good morning apw ;-P
[10:03] <psivaa> apw: smb: hello morning, would you know if anyone is looking at the issue in bug 1100386 ?
[10:03] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1100386 in linux (Ubuntu) "Raring server installations on VMs fail to reboot after the installations" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100386
[10:05] <smb> psivaa, I think I had a quick look there yesterday and it seemed Joe was on it to some degree (or I got distracted and just forgot about it)
[10:13] <psivaa> smb: ok thanks, it would be helpful, daily smoke is getting hit with this bug
[10:17] <smb> psivaa, btw, just for future reference, I find it more helpful to have text files attached uncompressed. That gives you a bigger chance that I will actually look at them because I don't have to save them before that. ;)
[10:18] <psivaa> smb: ack, ill remember that
[10:24] <apw> psivaa, so this is server images only ?
[10:25] <apw> ppisati, and is this xen or kvm, virtmanager can be either
[10:25] <smb> Oh and is that virt-manager with xen or kvm or what?
[10:27] <smb> psivaa, Hm, and not sure it is already in the report: how are those installs done? netboot /maas or really using any isos?
[10:35] <apw> jodh, hey we have a case here where upstart is aborting, and dumping core, that seems utterly specious as the machine will panic instantly and not sync the dump
[10:36] <apw> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/128694653/VBox_kernel_panic_i386_recovery.png
[10:48] <psivaa> apw: smb: that is only for server images
[10:49] <psivaa> it could be observed on both virt-manager and virtualbox as stated in the bug and the installation is using isos i did not use netboot or mass but preseeded and manual iso installations
[10:49] <apw> virt-manager using KVM or virt-manager using Xen as the virtualisation tech ?
[10:50] <psivaa> apw: virt-manager using KVM
[10:59] <ppisati> brb
[11:07] <rbasak> apw: hey, any known bugs with overlayfs and armadaxp? I have a regression between precise and quantal, looks like it affects raring as well.
[11:07] <rbasak> Doesn't affect highbank
[11:08] <rbasak> (in precise and quantal, not checked raring)
[11:18] <apw> rbasak, nope, overlayfs is generic and used on other arm platforms ok
[11:19] <rbasak> apw: I'll file a bug then. Thanks!
[11:21] <apw> rbasak, what sort of regression is it ?
[11:21] <rbasak> apw: it's broken :) http://paste.ubuntu.com/1558509/ - "mv" doesn't work for existing files in lowerdir. This breaks sbuild which is how I noticed it.
[11:27] <apw> rbasak, what filesystem type is / in this case ?
[11:27] <rbasak> apw: aha. That might be different between my armadaxp and highbank installs!
[11:27]  * rbasak looks
[11:28] <rbasak> apw: ext4 on both, but with slightly different options
[11:28] <rbasak> armadaxp: /dev/sda2 / ext4 rw,relatime,data=ordered 0 0
[11:28] <rbasak> highbank: /dev/disk/by-uuid/02fcfe14-c5ec-4371-9d59-7da564b2b428 / ext4 rw,relatime,errors=remount-ro,user_xattr,barrier=1,data=ordered 0 0
[11:29] <apw> rbasak, user_xattr is likely your problem
[11:29] <rbasak> I'll try ripping that out now
[11:29] <apw> perhaps the armadaxp is missing support for them in the kernel config (assuming you cannot just turn them on)
[11:30] <rbasak> apw: one of us has this backwards. armadaxp does not have user_xattr but does have the issue. highbank does have user_xattr but does not have the issue
[11:30] <apw> as the last thing it does before that error is:
[11:30] <apw>         err = vfs_setxattr(newdentry, ovl_whiteout_xattr, "y", 1, 0);
[11:30] <rbasak> Both fstabs are identical
[11:30] <rbasak> I think I might follow you now.
[11:31] <apw> rbasak, that is consistent, you likely need xattrs for userspace enabled which is what that flag enabled
[11:31] <apw> so i suspect that some XATTR related config option is off in the kernel config
[11:31] <rbasak> I see
[11:31] <rbasak> # CONFIG_EXT4_FS_XATTR is not set
[11:32] <rbasak> Should overlayfs be #ifdef'ing that vfs_setxattr line?
[11:33] <apw> nope, it need to mark it as a whiteout, that is what i uses, xattrs
[11:33] <apw> it should be on, your config is spack
[11:34] <rbasak> Then overlayfs should refuse to mount with an upper dir without xattr enabled surely?
[11:34] <apw> well some of its functionality works, so perhaps, perhaps not
[11:34] <rbasak> OK fair enough
[11:34] <apw> if it hurts, stop
[11:34] <rbasak> So what do we do to fix this? Raring - enable it? And Quantal?
[11:34] <apw> fix the config
[11:35] <apw> it is wrong in both
[11:35] <rbasak> Is an config change SRU acceptable for quantal?
[11:35] <apw> it fixes a bug, so i can't see a reason to say no, it is enableing something whihc is on in _all_ other configurations
[11:35] <rbasak> It is nice for sbuild to work on armhf for development work as reinstalls take ages.
[11:35] <rbasak> OK. Do you need a bug filed?
[11:36] <apw> so its not something to be scared of
[11:36] <apw> bug> yes, as all srus need them
[11:36] <rbasak> OK I'll do that now.
[11:36] <rbasak> apw: thanks. You just saved me hours of tracking this down. I would have started a bisection :-/
[11:38] <apw> rbasak, always worth asking
[11:38] <apw> psivaa, just did an install using virtmanager with xen and that worked just fine
[11:39] <psivaa> apw: ok, i have not tried with xen though, could it be then KVM related?
[11:40] <apw> psivaa, could be, though less likely when you say virtual box has the issue too
[11:40] <apw> rbasak, as overlayfs doesn't work that means we have never tested livecds with this h/w
[11:40] <psivaa> apw: yes virtual box had the issue, and is your installation amd64 or i386 server?
[11:40] <smb> psivaa, Perhaps you could provide us with the seed file and the steps to apply that to the install in the bug report?
[11:40] <rbasak> apw: not sure there is a live cd for armadaxp :)
[11:41] <apw> psivaa, i did a 64 bit install on a 64bit raring host
[11:46] <einonm> Hi, is there an easy way to remove old self-compiled kernel files from an ubuntu install? I used 'make modules_install install' to install them.
[11:48] <psivaa> smb: apw: ok, the panic occurred with both amd64 and i386 installs on amd64 host. Although the occurrence is more frequent on i386 installs. Ill add the preseed and steps for auto installs in the bug anyway
[12:00] <smb> einonm, Depends on whether you made the version numbers simple to be recognized... rm -rf is simple
[12:02] <einonm> smb: It's a linux-next tree, and I know where most of the files are, like /lib/modules and in /boot. But there's grub2 scripts that have changed also.
[12:03] <smb> einonm, No, just re-run update-grub after you removed the files from /boot
[12:04] <einonm> ok, I've been doing that - I hoped there was a ready made way. thanks
[12:20] <rbasak> apw: filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta-armadaxp/+bug/1102970 - should that be linux-armadaxp or linux-meta-armadaxp or something else?
[12:20] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 1102970 in linux-meta-armadaxp (Ubuntu) "Missing CONFIG_EXT{3,4}_FS_XATTR breaks overlayfs" [Undecided,New]
[12:20] <rbasak> ubuntu-bug led me to linux-meta-armadaxp which seems wrong to me
[12:42]  * henrix -> lunch
[13:02] <apw> jodh, hey ... so are we using upstart in the initramfs now ?
[13:41] <jodh> apw: no.
[13:42] <jodh> apw: the problem is bug 1096531. I've fixed this upstream, but it's not in Ubuntu yet.
[13:42] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1096531 in upstart (Ubuntu) "After touch /forcefsck and reboot: Assertion failed in log_clear_unflushed" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096531
[13:48] <psivaa> smb: apw: i have just attached a preseed file to the bug 1100386 with steps
[13:48] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1100386 in linux (Ubuntu) "Raring server installations on VMs fail to reboot after the installations" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100386
[14:02] <jodh> psivaa/apw: I'm looking at doing a cherry-pick fix for bug 1096531 today.
[14:02] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1096531 in upstart (Ubuntu) "After touch /forcefsck and reboot: Assertion failed in log_clear_unflushed" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096531
[14:03] <psivaa> jodh: ack, thanks
[14:10] <apw> jodh, ok so the issue is actually reproducible on random boots of the installed image, could that still be that bug ?
[14:12] <jodh> apw: I'm sure this is the same issue. See comment https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/1096531/comments/4 for the triggering factors.
[14:12] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 1096531 in upstart (Ubuntu) "After touch /forcefsck and reboot: Assertion failed in log_clear_unflushed" [High,In progress]
[14:14] <jodh> psivaa/apw: ... but to be convinced, could you please try the workarounds in #5 to see if you can still reproduce the problem?
[14:17] <apw> jodh, ok just added --no-log to the kernel command line, and it is still reproducible
[14:18] <jodh> apw: are you sure? the failure is coming from the logger code which should not be used with that option.
[14:18] <apw> jodh, it is definatly getting to upstart as --debug emits lots of upstart output
[14:18] <apw> jodh, yes, confirmed that --no-log is in the boot options always (added to /etc/default/grub)
[14:19] <apw> and on 1 boot in 2 (ish) i get this hang, so this is probabally not the issue you see i recon
[14:19] <apw> jodh, so my symptoms are the boot just stopping, immediatly after the fsck output
[14:23] <jodh> apw: that must be a different issue. What environment are you seeing this problem in?
[14:23] <apw> jodh, i've only seen it with server cd installs booted under kvm
[14:24] <apw> jodh, this is occuring in my installed image on around half my boots
[14:25] <jodh> apw: what's the cpu usage for the kvm process when it hangs? Is it spinning do you think?
[14:27] <apw> jodh, if i strace the kvm process it is waking up on a 1s basis and doing a small ammount, not spinning
[14:28] <apw> jodh, just did a boot with --verbose and it definatly is in upstart, i see the upstart bridge start then it clears the console and does the fsck, and wedged
[14:28] <sforshee> apw, I bisected the wireless problem and found a commit from broadcom that introduced a bug, so it's not a ucode issue after all
[14:28] <sforshee> apw, they've supplied a patch, care to test it?
[14:28] <apw> sforshee, sweet, it is pissing me off regularly
[14:28] <apw> sforshee, YES :)
[14:28] <sforshee> apw, http://people.canonical.com/~sforshee/brcmsmac-txstatus-build/
[14:28] <sforshee> I'm about to give it a spin on my machine, but it looks like it should get the job done
[14:29] <cking> nice one
[14:29] <jodh> apw: can you try booting to a shell, remounting rw, removing /forcefsck, then rebooting?
[14:29] <apw> jodh, i doubt it even has that file, but will check
[14:32] <apw> jodh, yeah that forcefsck is _not_ there, so this is not that, whatever it is
[14:32] <jodh> apw: when did your problem start?
[14:33] <apw> jodh, i am booting todays images, i am only aware of it from today, i have no information from before
[14:33] <apw> jodh, i am only aware because it was reported as above by psivaa
[14:33] <apw> jodh, be i think they imply it is a recent issue
[14:35] <apw> jodh, is there any further debug i can ask for above --debug ?
[14:36] <jodh> apw: no. can you get a serial console log though?
[14:37] <apw> jodh, maybe
[14:52] <apw> jodh, ok it is possible to add the serial being logs
[14:53] <apw> jodh, but when i log the output to there as well it doesn't reproduce any more
[14:53] <apw> jodh, any other ideas ?
[14:54] <jodh> apw: you could boot to a shell, remount / rw then create tty8.conf to "start on startup". That should allow you to login and see the status of the existing jobs.
[14:55] <jodh> apw: does friendly-recovery work btw?
[14:56] <apw> jodh, i am a kernel engineer :)  what the heck is that
[14:57] <apw> jodh, i am just using the rare good boot to change things
[14:57] <jodh> apw: select the "recovery" option on the boot menu :)
[14:57] <apw> oh that i've used a few times, always successfully
[14:57] <jodh> apw: it would be worth trying as that *is* actually being started by upstart.
[14:59] <apw> jodh, ok i have done two of those and get to the menu and select 'continue normal boot'
[14:59] <apw> jodh, and it boots fine, i will do a coupkle more, but i just got
[14:59] <apw> initctl: Event failed
[14:59] <apw> on the console
[15:00] <apw> jodh, could that be indicative of a lost event?
[15:04] <jodh> apw: probably related to a failed job. We really need to see the console log.
[15:05] <apw> jodh, cannot get it for you without losing the issue
[15:05] <jodh> apw: can you try the tty8 trick? atleast then you should be able to login and sniff around.
[15:06] <apw> jodh, that sounds good, what the heck is it
[15:06] <jodh> apw: see above. Either create tty8.conf or modify tty[1-6].conf to 'start on startup' and reboot.
[15:07] <jodh> apw: make that tty[2-6].conf.
[15:07] <apw> ack
[15:10] <apw> jodh, ok i seemed to have a login on tty8 when it booted normally, but in the 'broken' state i do not
[15:10] <apw> though i did see init: debug for many 100s of lines before the occurance
[15:11] <apw> jodh, so now i am very confused
[15:11] <jodh> apw: how about booting without --debug and seeing if you can login in the wedged state: we can still see that job state then.
[15:12] <apw> ok
[15:13] <jodh> apw: I've got a fully up-to-date server and can't reproduce what you're seeing. A list of jobs would also be useful. I'm going to do the cherry-pick now, but could you raise a bug on this so we can track it?
[15:15] <davmor2> hey guys is there a guide on debugging bluetooth issues anywhere I have a new Lenovo Ideapad y580 and the bluetooth constantly say Bluetooth is disabled whether it is on or off.
[15:16] <apw> jodh, ok i still have nothing on /dev/tty8 odd
[15:17] <jodh> apw: could this be a weird udev issue maybe?
[15:28]  * ogasawara back in 20
[15:39] <apw> jodh, it could indeed, bloody thing
[15:48] <thotypous> hi, which should be marked duplicated of which? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1101797  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1101355
[15:48] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 1101797 in linux (Ubuntu) "On shutdown: “umount2: Device or resource busy, umount:/dev/sda2 busy - remounted read-only” appears" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[15:48] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 1101355 in linux (Ubuntu) "can't umount home partition on 3.5.0-22-generic (works on 3.5.0-21-generic)" [Medium,Confirmed]
[15:54] <jsalisbury> thotypous, 1101797 should probably be marked as a dup of 1101355
[15:59]  * jsalisbury notices a famous guest on http://ubuntuonair.com/
[17:11]  * ppisati goes out for a bit...
[17:28] <jodh> psivaa: I'm just testing the fix for bug 1100386, but having issues on my SSD system. Looks like a kernel bug as opposed to an Upstart issue, but it's looking now like it'll be tomorrow realistically before the fix is uploaded to allow time to investigate.
[17:28] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1096531 in upstart (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1100386 After touch /forcefsck and reboot: Assertion failed in log_clear_unflushed" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096531
[17:31] <psivaa> jodh: ok thanks for the information, i assume you've seen the nomodeset related information that was added to the bug
[17:33] <smb> Probably something in the cirrus drm module (or related). Not sure whether that can explain the virtualbox hang as well.
[17:34] <smb> Depends a bit what gfx hw they emulate. Xen for example has uses some different pci ids which do not cause the drm module to load. And I could not make it hang there.
[17:36] <jodh> psivaa: yes - there seem to be 2 problems here.
[19:31] <bguthro> I'm trying to google for the answer to this, but probably haven't gotten the right keywords. Is the ubuntu-raring.git repo planned on shipping with 3.8 - or will development continue to 3.9?
[19:32] <ogasawara> bguthro: we'll ship Raring with a v3.8 kernel
[19:33] <bguthro> ogasawara, thank you - much appreciated.
[19:33] <ogasawara> bguthro: we'll eventually open a Raring+1, ie a 13.10 kernel, which will continue tracking the latest kernel, eg a 3.9 kernel once it opens
[19:36] <bguthro> ogasawara, thanks. That seems to be a trend (or at least has been for the past 3, or 4 releases where I've been paying attention) - Is this done for all releases, or just the .04 releases?
[19:37] <ogasawara> bguthro: it's something we try do for all releases, just makes maintenance going forward easier
[19:37] <bguthro> ogasawara, understood. Thanks for the explanation.
[19:46] <jsalisbury> bjf, herton, bug 1101666 appears to be a regression in Precise and Quantal related to inotify.  A bisect may be possible, just wanted to give you a heads up.
[19:46] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1101666 in linux (Ubuntu) "inotify fd leak" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1101666
[19:49] <bjf> jsalisbury, if you can get that identified "soonish" we can get that fixed for the point release. we (ogasawara) is working another regression at this time.
[19:49] <jsalisbury> bjf, ack.  I'll kick off a bisect
[19:53] <herton> jsalisbury, also this looks like related to the sauce/upstream fsnotify patches. Someone posted two day refering to two other bugs (1101355, 1101797). It looks related, so perhaps to cut time you can revert just the fsnotify patches and ask for testing.
[19:53] <herton> *today
[19:54] <jsalisbury> herton, ack, I'll do that.
[21:03] <bjf> arges, you have any thoughts on bug 1101666
[21:03] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1101666 in linux (Ubuntu Quantal) "inotify fd leak" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1101666
[21:03] <arges> bjf: hi looking
[21:05] <arges> bjf: jsalisbury : so which set of fsnotify patches are you reverting? the last set i cherry-picked from upstream
[21:05] <jsalisbury> arges, yes, but just to build a test kernel for bug 1101666.
[21:05] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1101666 in linux (Ubuntu Quantal) "inotify fd leak" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1101666
[21:06] <arges> ok
[21:08] <jsalisbury> bjf, arges, there seems to be another set of patches in comment #6 of bug 1101355
[21:08] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1101355 in linux (Ubuntu) "can't umount home partition on 3.5.0-22-generic (works on 3.5.0-21-generic)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1101355
[21:11] <bjf> jsalisbury, are you chasing both Precise and Quantal or focusing on one?
[21:12] <jsalisbury> bjf, I figured I'd build a test kernel for both since there are reports for both
[21:12] <bjf> jsalisbury, ack
[21:12] <jsalisbury> bjf, for the revert anyway
[21:13] <jsalisbury> bjf, hmm, I'm getting an ABI error during the build after reverting the patches:
[21:13] <jsalisbury> II: Checking for changes to ABI...
[21:13] <jsalisbury>     HASH : fsnotify_destroy_mark                    : 0x6f87a911 => 0xe80f7610
[21:13] <jsalisbury>     HASH : fsnotify_alloc_group                     : 0xef67e06f => 0x81e56199
[21:13] <jsalisbury>     HASH : fsnotify_init_mark                       : 0xfbfedde7 => 0x0098ed67
[21:13] <jsalisbury>     HASH : fsnotify_add_mark                        : 0x82789f61 => 0x72e1be12
[21:13] <jsalisbury>     HASH : fsnotify_put_group                       : 0x9ad3a0b6 => 0x95f2960e
[21:13] <jsalisbury>     HASH : fsnotify_put_mark                        : 0x67507862 => 0x9e5033ad
[21:13] <jsalisbury> EE: 6 symbols changed hash and weren't ignored
[21:13] <jsalisbury> II: Module hash change summary...
[21:13] <jsalisbury>     vmlinux                                 : 6
[21:13] <jsalisbury> II: Done
[21:13] <jsalisbury> make: *** [abi-check-generic] Error 1
[21:15] <bjf> jsalisbury, i can believe that though i've not looked at the patches
[21:15] <bjf> jsalisbury, is this P or Q that you are talking about?
[21:15] <jsalisbury> bjf, what I posted above was from P.  But it happens to both P and Q
[21:15] <bjf> jsalisbury, is 3.2.0-36.56 good or bad?
[21:17] <jsalisbury> bjf, bad
[21:18] <bjf> jsalisbury, and 3.2.0-36.57 is also bad?
[21:19] <jsalisbury> bjf, actually 3.2.0-36.57 is bad.  I'm not sure about .56, but I can check
[21:19] <bjf> jsalisbury, that would be best to try first
[21:20] <jsalisbury> bjf, ack, testing 3.2.0-36.56 should be the same as reverting the fsnotify patches, correct?
[21:21] <bjf> jsalisbury, it changes one set of fsnotify patches for another
[21:21] <jsalisbury> bjf, right, got it.


[08:31] <juliux> persia: thxs
[14:00] <persia> ian_brasil, Did you ever get a chance to update gypsy?
[14:05] <ian_brasil> persia: not yet...he book is consuming all my spare cycles but i promise to do it as soon as i can..and thanks for the comments and the diff
[14:05] <persia> ian_brasil, There's a team working to prep all the moblin packages not yet in Ubuntu in a PPA for a drop into karmic later.
[14:06] <persia> I've pointed out your work on gypsy, and I don't think anyone else is chasing it.
[14:06] <persia> No worries if you're swamped, but if you don't have time by the end of the month or so, would you mind if someone else took a swing?
[14:07] <persia> Alternately, if you have time, let me know, and I'll poke those folks to use your package.
[14:07] <ian_brasil> not at all...let me write to ross/iain and see what the plans are for squeeze
[14:08] <persia> Sounds good.  Migrating to the new dbus bit is probably required for squeeze, as I think that's a newer D-Bus than jaunty.
[14:17] <ian_brasil> persia: lets try to get it upstream
[14:19] <persia> ian_brasil, That sounds like the best plan.  Let me know if you need references or something.
[14:20] <ian_brasil> thx persia i will
[14:20] <persia> Good luck with your book.
[14:58] <ian_brasil> thx persia..it is nearly finished now thank goodness
[22:51] <lool> Folks I unseeded powernowd from unr as done in the desktop seed; I did not unseed it from mid yet as I don't think the lpia config permits this
[23:04] <lool> So the same changes were done in lpia
[23:04] <lool> Dropped from mid seed as well


[01:44] <bazhang_> Jnelson? one and the same?
[01:45] <LjL> bazhang_: always him
[01:45] <bazhang_> wow
[01:45] <bazhang_> what was up with _21_ earlier?
[01:45] <LjL> bazhang_: and he's going to create trouble in several other channels, from the looks of it
[01:46] <LjL> bazhang: nothing really, he asked how to rm -rf /
[01:46] <LjL> bazhang: but i say "nothing really" because there was no mention of that in -ru
[01:46] <bazhang> LjL, ok, will have a word with him
[01:47] <elkbuntu> bazhang, how does the nick 'morgenstern' fit in with -ru?
[01:47] <LjL> germanly
[01:47] <elkbuntu> i dont know if it's a him or her, but they complained in -women earlier that they're banned from -ru.
[01:48] <elkbuntu> they were in -women to use us as support since #ubuntu wasnt answering at whim.
[01:58] <elkbuntu> bazhang?
[02:00] <JNelson> why dont you all come into the rooms i am like LJL
[02:01] <bazhang> elkbuntu, morgenstern?
[02:01] <bazhang> never heard of it
[02:01] <elkbuntu> yes
[02:01] <bazhang> LjL, no telling really, they speak in code of all kinds
[02:02] <bazhang> they even spell my name in cyrillic so I wont know they are talking about me
[02:02] <elkbuntu> bazhang, * Morgenstern<EMAIL_ADDRESS>has joined #ubuntu-women
[02:03] <LjL> bazhang: no doubt about that - but 21 never spoke at all during that period
[02:03] <bazhang> LjL, you in -ru-ot as well?
[02:03] <LjL> bazhang: no
[02:03] <LjL> bazhang: but last time i checked, there were very few people in there
[02:03] <LjL> i decided i'd leave it
[02:04] <bazhang> I'd bet there, or via PM is where most of the plotting goes on LjL
[02:04] <LjL> maybe
[02:05] <elkbuntu> or other channels on other servers
[02:05] <bazhang> elkbuntu, will check that out about morgenstern; the one issue is that the regular Russian operators are rarely if ever around; the original founder of the channel and the team are almost *never* there
[02:05] <bazhang> so they have some sort of proxy operators at this point as far as I can tell
[02:05] <elkbuntu> bazhang, yeah, i know. just wanted to know where they fitted in. maybe the ip is in the bans list?
[02:06] <elkbuntu> by proxy you mean sympathetic to the idiots?
[02:06] <LjL> elkbuntu: that's what easily results when appointly ops at semi-random
[02:06] <LjL> appointing
[02:08] <bazhang> by proxy = perhaps even in on the trolling raid plotting
[02:08] <bazhang> not just to -women either
[02:09] <bazhang> elkbuntu, morgenstern is banned from -ru (or a clumsy ban of someone else) for over a month now.
[02:11] <elkbuntu> bazhang, aha. might i suggest it be lifted so that the individual can be monitored in natural habitat?
[02:11] <bazhang> heh
[02:11] <bazhang> in situ
[02:12] <LjL> elkbuntu, you've seen too many australian aboriginals...
[02:13] <elkbuntu> heh
[02:17] <Jnelson> I got one Question why was LJL entering everyroom that i was in.
[02:18] <bazhang> Jnelson, do you have a question regarding the #ubuntu channels?
[02:18] <Jnelson> no i want to know why he was doing that
[02:18] <bazhang> Jnelson, please see the /topic as to what this channel is for.
[02:19] <Jnelson> i dont care hes done this before i think
[02:19] <Jnelson> to me
[02:22] <Jnelson> Please i just want to know i am getting real stressed becase of this
[02:22] <elkbuntu> Jnelson, your previous visit indicates otherwise.
[02:23] <Jnelson> otherwise what
[02:23] <elkbuntu> Jnelson, your previous visit indicates that you are enjoying the attention, to the point you invited everyone in this channel to do the same.
[02:24] <Jnelson> Im not enjoying it was sarcasm
[02:24] <bazhang> Jnelson, please dont idle here
[02:24] <Jnelson> oh nm i dont even get sarcasm
[02:25] <Jnelson> Im not idiling i am waiting for an answer, and i dont get social policys right i have aspergers
[02:25] <elkbuntu> Jnelson, then you should avoid using things that your condition gets you in trouble with. places with rules for example, like freenode in general.
[02:27] <Jnelson> its social interaction i have trouble with ok and i admit i sometimes cant control myself when i run out of my medicine
[02:28] <elkbuntu> Jnelson, it's your responsibility to keep yourself medicated.
[02:28] <Jnelson> Control myself as in doing unpolite things like annoying people calling them names
[02:28] <Jnelson> I know
[02:28] <elkbuntu> Jnelson, it's NOT our responsibility to let you do as you please when you cannot keep yourself medicated.
[02:28] <Jnelson> SO why was he doing it, thats all i want to know and i wont go on freenode again
[02:29] <LjL> Jnelson, which part of this channel's intended topic, as pointed out to you, wasn't particularly clear?
[02:29] <Jnelson> why where you doing it ljl
[02:29] <LjL> Jnelson, which part of this channel's topic is not clear to you?
[02:29] <elkbuntu> LinuxGuyMarshall, can we help you?
[02:29] <LjL> LinuxGuyMarshall: hi, hold on a moment please
[02:29] <LinuxGuyMarshall> I would like to request an unban of myself on #ubunut, and I will wait
[02:30] <LinuxGuyMarshall> #ubuntu *
[02:30] <Jnelson> I dont care about the topic i just want an answer and i will leave freenode forever i swear
[02:30] <bazhang> LinuxGuyMarshall, do you know why you were banned?
[02:30] <LinuxGuyMarshall> Yes
[02:30] <LjL> Jnelson: if you don't care about a channel's topic, then you shouldn't be in that channel to begin with.
[02:30] <LjL> bye.
[02:31] <bazhang> LinuxGuyMarshall, I recall removing you but not banning you
[02:31] <LinuxGuyMarshall> I do not have access atm
[02:31] <LjL> Jnelson: ... which might have to do with the answer to your very question, anyway, if you think about it.
[02:31] <Jnelson> what the aspergert part
[02:32] <elkbuntu> Jnelson, no.
[02:32] <LinuxGuyMarshall> bazhang, '/join #ubuntu' returns '*| Cannot join #ubuntu (You are banned).'
[02:32] <Jnelson> what part than i wil leave
[02:33] <bazhang> LinuxGuyMarshall, were you banned for some language issue?
[02:34] <LinuxGuyMarshall> bazhang, correct. I left my computer to do some work on another across the house and asked my friend to watch it and wait for a response. But he began to use foul language
[02:34] <LinuxGuyMarshall> But I acknowledge that that is all on me
[02:35] <bazhang> LinuxGuyMarshall, no worries, you were removed but not banned, but were using a proxy at the time so the bots banned you.
[02:36] <LinuxGuyMarshall> Ah, so how can I fix that problem?
[02:37] <Jnelson> Im leaving freenode forever bye and thats forever
[02:37] <bazhang> bye
[02:37] <Jnelson> i swear i will never go on freenode again bye
[02:38] <Jnelson> what else is new this p1 computer takes forever to close
[02:38] <elkbuntu> Jnelson, i'll believe it when i see it.
[02:38] <Jnelson> i will just hard power off this computer
[02:38] <Jnelson> bye
[02:40] <elkbuntu> Jnelson, if you're waiting for us to plead for you to stay, dont bother. it's not going to happen.
[02:40] <bazhang> LinuxGuyMarshall, you are free to re-enter ubuntu
[02:40] <LinuxGuyMarshall> bazhang, Thank you
[02:43] <bazhang> never knew that the floodbots would do that on a remove
[02:44] <bazhang> so the syntax for a time-limited +m would be what?
[02:44] <LjL> bazhang: only on removing mibbit users
[02:44] <LjL> hmm?
[02:44] <LjL> there would be none
[02:44] <LjL> you can script that
[02:44] <bazhang> muting that would expire after a time? LjL is that possible?
[02:45] <LjL> bazhang: only if you script that in your client
[02:45] <bazhang> I'll ask in #xchat :)
[02:45] <LjL> not a native irc feature
[02:45] <LjL> bazhang: i believe chanserv.py and friends have that
[02:45] <bazhang> LjL, thanks, just being lazy :)
[02:47] <elkbuntu> they do?
[02:47] <LjL> i've never used them, i thought they did though
[02:50] <elkbuntu> not features i've ever been made aware of
[02:50] <bazhang> not in chanserv.py from what the link reveals
[02:51] <jdong> AFAIK auto_bleh.pl does
[02:52] <LjL> ah yes i was probably confusing the two
[03:01] <elkbuntu> bazhang, i think he meant what he said. he seems to think linux is an extreme thing to do to a computer.
[03:02] <bazhang> elkbuntu, certainly
[03:41] <bazhang> @bansearch n2diy
[04:25] <bazhang> @bansearch skii89
[04:25] <bazhang> oops
[04:25] <bazhang> @bansearch skii69
[04:26] <stdin> I removed the mute after they quit
[04:27] <bazhang> ok
[04:27] <bazhang> he is in #ubuntu now
[04:28] <stdin> then he's officially "your problem" ;)
[04:28] <stdin> I did /msg him after I muted, but got no response fwiw
[05:41] <bazhang> power user?
[06:35] <elkbuntu> christel, are you there?
[08:14] <bazhang> * [wahnnfrieden] (n=www@c-71-232-76-78.hsd1.ma.comcast.net): www <--in -ot
[08:15] <elkbuntu> bazhang, eh?
[08:15] <Flannel> elkbuntu: Talking abotu beating up his parents, etc.  Keep an eye on him
[08:16] <elkbuntu> ugh
[08:16] <bazhang> seems to be trolling
[08:21] <bazhang> scrote in #kubuntu ? someone want to intervene there?
[08:22] <elkbuntu> yay, hosk finally figures himself out
[08:24] <bazhang> * [scrote] (n=brussels@<IP_ADDRESS>.res-cmts.flt.ptd.net): spongebob
[08:27] <Flannel> elkbuntu: In his room that he never leaves, apparently
[08:27] <elkbuntu> indeed
[08:27] <elkbuntu> i'm trying to melt his brain so i can ban him
[08:46] <Flannel> bazhang: .29 isn't in any Ubuntu, Jaunty is running 28
[08:46] <Flannel> I wonder if he compiled his own and is just confused
[08:46] <bazhang> so he is not using ubuntu or option b: trolling
[08:46] <Flannel> Or just confused
[08:46] <bazhang> yep
[09:06] <elkbuntu> now lets find out how big a troll he is.
[09:15] <ikonia> did anyone catch Until_It_Sleeps earlier ?
[09:15] <bazhang> the bot banned it
[09:15] <ikonia> yeah, seems a little unusual in that he's actually a cloaked user
[09:16] <bazhang> check scrote in #k
[09:16] <ikonia> normally people are just randoms with that type of behaviour
[09:16] <ikonia> ok
[09:16] <ikonia> poor attempt at swasticker
[09:16] <bazhang> he is still unbanned
[09:17] <ikonia> no he's not ;)
[09:18] <bazhang> hehe
[09:18] <bazhang> did the same in #windows
[09:18] <ikonia> nice
[09:18] <ikonia> Im sure he's a welcome contributor
[09:19] <ikonia> seemed sensible to do him on nick rather than IP
[09:22] <ubot3> In #ubuntu-offtopic, snuxoll said: !sarcasm is <reply> Sometimes sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet, use </sarcasm> tags when in doubt
[09:33] <ikonia> bazhang: just spoke to Signius in pm in case it was just a slip/frustrated, and it wasn't - he thinks swearing was "needed" to get his point across
[09:33] <ikonia> and he thinks the channel needed to know his view
[09:33] <bazhang> ikonia, he needs a day to cool off imo
[09:34] <ikonia> he's now claiminig it's christian facism rules
[09:34] <bazhang> aha
[09:34] <ikonia> I'll drop it with him now that I see his intent is not a mistake
[09:35] <ikonia> 09:34 <Signius> But fair enough if you want to be a sad little TIN GOD then fine
[09:35] <ikonia> left it at that
[09:35] <bazhang> wow
[09:36] <ikonia> real attitude
[09:36] <ikonia> for context so I'm not picking on lines
[09:36] <ikonia> 09:33 <ikonia> relgion has nothing to do with it
[09:36] <ikonia> 09:34 <Signius> i didnt even use the actual word
[09:36] <ikonia> 09:34 <Signius> hence the use of ******
[09:36] <ikonia> 09:34 <ikonia> the intent was there, and everyone knew what the word was
[09:36] <ikonia> 09:34 <ikonia> wasn't needed
[09:36] <ikonia> 09:34 <Signius> But fair enough if you want to be a sad little TIN GOD then fine
[09:36] <bazhang> until_it_sleeps is now * EdgarJohn (i=JE@gateway/tor/x-bb3bc2fc79cfa9aa just spammed -ru
[09:37] <ikonia> !staff | until_it_sleeps sending ctcp requests and spamming channels (trying to)
[09:37] <ikonia> he's on tor now, he wasn't before
[09:39] <ikonia> he's on a zen static IP, so thats handy
[09:39] <ikonia> Signius I mean
[09:40] <bazhang> more than a day then? for the ban? what is your take ikonia
[09:40] <bazhang> ie signius not until_it_sleeps :)
[09:40] <ikonia> I'm not interested in dicussing it with him while his atttude is like that
[09:40] <bazhang> k
[09:40] <ikonia> he knew what he was doing, makes it clear he doesn, makes it clear his stance/excuses
[09:41] <ikonia> s/doesn/does
[09:49] <bazhang> the -ru operators are almost literally never there.
[09:49] <bazhang> ie the proxies they have installed in their places
[10:10] <ikonia> bazhang: is it possible to look for other trust worthy guys ?
[10:10] <ikonia> it is a problem channel and it can't be up to you to staff if 24x7
[10:11] <elkbuntu> ikonia, that's what he's doing i suspect. i think the trustworthy aka sane guys gave up and fled ages ago though
[10:11] <ikonia> yes, that is probable
[10:17] <elkbuntu> as is usually what happens with Internet Communities Gone Bad.
[10:17] <elkbuntu> i'm pretty sure /b/ wasn't always as it is now. it was probably sane for at least an hour
[10:27] <bazhang> yep
[10:28] <bazhang> the guy who is nominally in charge now was really against me taking any action whatsoever towards the attackers in -women
[10:28] <bazhang> he wanted me to clear it with him first.
[10:28] <bazhang> but since he is never around, kind of hard to do.
[10:30] <bazhang> this was not in response to the /b/ comment btw :)
[10:31] <bazhang> off to get dinner/back later
[11:56] <siekacz> hi
[11:57] <siekacz> i can't join #ubuntu
[11:57] <siekacz> i'm banned, but why?
[11:57] <ikonia> one moment
[11:58] <ikonia> just looking now
[11:59] <ikonia> siekacz: it is because of your ident
[12:00] <ikonia> your ident is xxxpornx
[12:00]  * elkbuntu blinks
[12:01] <siekacz> lol :)
[12:01] <siekacz> i'll change it :D
[12:01] <ikonia> why is that funny ?
[12:01] <ikonia> please, that would be appriciated
[12:02] <siekacz> i didn't now that cause ban
[13:19] <Myrtti> merh.
[14:37] <bazhang> @bansearch sdlwof
[15:03] <Myrtti> *urp*
[15:03] <Myrtti> thai coconut curry, white chocolate mousse and coffee with real cream makes today marginally more bearable
[15:19]  * jussi01 waves
[15:22] <bazhang> hi
[18:25] <ctrlv> so whats the deal with flash in ubuntu now?
[18:28] <nalioth> ctrlv: this is not a support channel
[18:28] <ctrlv> well for some reason im banned from #ubuntu
[18:28] <ctrlv> and ive never even gone to that channel before
[18:30] <Myrtti> has anyone managed to login to ubottu since it was restarted?
[18:30] <Myrtti> I haven't
[18:34] <PriceChild> @btlogin
[18:34] <PriceChild> Myrtti: wfm
[18:34] <Myrtti> @login
[18:34] <Myrtti> @btlogin
[18:34] <Myrtti> weird
[18:36] <Pici> @login
[18:36] <Pici> hrm
[18:37] <Pici> ubottu wasn't responding to anything in pm until I did that
[18:37] <Pici> I don't.
[18:55] <Mez> @hostmask add
[18:56] <Mez> do that ;) and it'll auto-recognise you ;)
[18:57] <Myrtti> Mez: the problem with that is that I know for a fact my hostname was on it
[18:57] <Mez> @hostmask Myrtti
[18:57] <Myrtti> @hostmask Pici
[18:58] <genii> @login
[18:58] <Mez> sorry
[18:58] <Mez> @user hostmask list
[18:58] <Mez> yeah, run that in PM... :D
[18:58] <Mez> see what the hostmasks you've got saved are
[18:58] <Myrtti> and it gives exactly the response you saw
[18:59] <Myrtti> *shrug*
[18:59]  * Mez has
[18:59] <Mez>  '*!*@ubuntu/member/mez' and 'Mez!n=mez@ubuntu/member/mez'
[18:59] <Mez> (I added the first manually)
[19:00] <Mez> ah, wait...
[19:00] <Mez> That just lets you login without a password
[19:00] <Mez> d'oh
[19:57] <Myrtti> I wonder what that was about
[20:16] <Myrtti> !pt
[20:26] <Flannel> Can someone kick ubot3 out of -ot?
[20:27] <Myrtti> why?
[20:27] <Flannel> Myrtti: Because we don't need two bots?
[20:27] <PriceChild> Flannel: mute if needed
[20:27] <PriceChild> Flannel: that way we don't have to bother admins to put them back when needed
[20:27] <Flannel> PriceChild: That won't help in queries
[20:28] <Myrtti> Flannel: I've wanted to do that but got that ^ result
[20:28] <Flannel> He isn't talking in channel, but is doing the query thing duplicate I believe
[20:28] <PriceChild> as in ! foo > bar ?
[20:28] <Flannel> Yeah
[20:28] <Flannel> I get one from each
[20:30] <Flannel> Myrtti: Nal has said if he finds his way in there we just boot him
[20:31] <Flannel> Or, I could swear he did.  I could be crazy.  Never know.
[20:33] <PriceChild> @login
[20:33] <PriceChild> ubot3 doesn't recognise me.
[20:33] <ubot3> PriceChild: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[20:48] <kbrooks> I have a question about the !ntfs-3g factoid.
[20:49] <Myrtti> !ntfs-3g
[20:49] <Myrtti> go ahead
[20:50] <kbrooks> There may be reliability problems when using the utility tools of ntfs 3g. Could you say that somehow in the factoid?
[20:50] <kbrooks> I mean ntfsprogs
[20:50] <kbrooks> !info ntfsprogs
[20:51] <kbrooks> Can I install both ntfsprogs and NTFS-3G?
[20:51] <kbrooks>     Yes, though be careful with ntfsprogs-2.0.0 because it has some reliability issues (write failure, sparse file corruption, utility hang, etc).
[20:51] <kbrooks> at http://www.ntfs-3g.org/support.html
[20:52] <kbrooks> All right, never mind.
[20:52] <kbrooks> Thank you anyway.
[20:52] <Myrtti> np
[20:53] <kbrooks> You may wish to paste that info a !ntfsprogs factoid or something like that. Bye bye.
[21:40] <Myrtti> surreal
[21:48]  * Myrtti starts to fiddle with her CV again
[22:10]  * ikonia needs to stop refering to modules as drivers
[22:37] <LjL> ikonia: oh by the way, could you help me? i just put a driver in a folder but i couldn't find it in the explorer, so i went in the DOS thing and tried to find it there but it didn't let me go to C: so i just went in the gconf registry and loaded it there. do i have to reboot?
[23:43] <Flannel> elkbuntu: Did you ever finish that letter to UWN?


[01:08] <kafeine> hello
[01:08] <Nafallo> morning :-)
[01:14] <kafeine> mm
[01:15] <kafeine> for the icon breezy thingie
[01:15] <kafeine> is there a list somewhere with the icons that arent yet done
[01:15] <kafeine> aaaand where can i see some icons which are already in this to-be set
[01:15] <kafeine> so i could make them more.. consistent?
[01:18] <Nafallo> http://andy.fitzsimon.com.au/humility-icons.tar.bz2
[01:18] <Nafallo> this is what's being worked on for breezy :-)
[01:19] <kafeine> thank you:)
[01:23] <Nafallo> no problem :-)
[02:00] <efbie> I made some new icons (for a few more info see mailing-list) :: http://www.mentalwarp.com/~fred/divers/humility-fred-contrib.zip
[11:43] <tvoss> Hi all, is there already a package available for the Humility-Icon-Theme
[11:45] <ogra_> tvoss, yes, i got it locally....
[11:46] <tvoss> ogra_ can you send by mail to t.voss"at"onlinehome.de
[11:46] <ogra_> i'll upload it today, jst apt-get it then ;)
[11:47] <tvoss> ogra_ hoary or breezy?
[11:47] <ogra_> breezy... but for a icontheme that doesnt matter
[11:47] <ogra_> they are interchangeable
[11:49] <Nafallo> http://andy.fitzsimon.com.au/humility-icons.tar.bz2
[11:49] <Nafallo> or get them there ^ ;-)
[11:50] <ogra_> Nafallo, thats not a package ;)
[11:51] <Nafallo> ogra_: depends on your definition of package :-)
[11:52] <ogra_> mine has a .deb in the end :)
[11:52] <Nafallo> :-)
[11:52] <ogra_> (my definition as well as my package ;))
[11:53] <RQ> ;)
[11:54] <RQ> it's useless as long as X doesn't work, anyways :D
[11:55] <RQ> ogra_, what will the name of the package be?
[11:55] <ogra_> humility-icon-theme ?
[11:55] <RQ> great :)
[11:56] <RQ> i hope it will remain like that.
[11:57] <ogra_> i'm pondering if i should put a gnome- in fromt...
[11:57] <RQ> btw are you guys responsible for the colour themes in Ubuntu?
[11:57] <ogra_> front even
[11:57] <ogra_> not yet
[11:57] <RQ> hmm... maybe not... if it works with KDE too.
[11:57] <RQ> hmm
[11:57] <ogra_> but the colors will be a responsibility of the art team
[11:58] <RQ> I have a sugestion - don't keep the name of the package if you change it quite radically
[11:58] <RQ> for example, i liked the soft brown colours in Warthy much more then those in Hoary
[11:59] <RQ> so it wasn't very pleasing to find out that I can only have one of these themes at a time.
[12:00] <RQ> so I'd suggest that you name them distinctively so that the user could have both of them installed
[12:01] <RQ> (that's for the future, of course)
[01:57] <tvoss> wrt humility icon theme: An icon for a samba share is missing
[02:16] <RQ> ogra, so you've added "gnome-"..
[02:16] <ogra> yep, after talking to our KDE maintainer
[02:17] <ogra> KDE will need a) repackaging anyway b) wont use them
[02:18] <RQ> hm
[02:18] <RQ> i thought there's a common freedesktop format now :|
[02:18] <ogra> KDE uses other names for the icons, so they all will have to be renamed
[02:18] <RQ> weird..
[02:18] <ogra> RQ, gnome uses gnome-fs-home.svg for example :)
[02:19] <RQ> ywah
[02:19] <ogra> nearly all icons have a prefix
[02:19] <RQ> but as i said - i thought they've agreed on that fd.org standard
[02:20] <ogra> sure... but if you look at KDE you'll find that it stores setings and theme data in .desktop files which is as wrong as having a gone- prefix on icons... i guess there is still a way to go for both
[02:20] <ogra> s/gone-/gnome-
[02:21] <RQ> yeah, well...
[02:22] <RQ> i wonder what that standard specifies then..
[02:22] <ogra> i havent read it... i'm only the packaging bitch here :) *shrug*
[02:24] <Nafallo> ogra: almost entirely true ;-)
[02:24] <ogra> heh
[02:25] <Nafallo> ogra: care to review and upload libdc0 btw? it's on universeunmetdeps
 ;-)
[07:29] <Nafallo> gothcat: welcome :-)
[07:29] <gothcat> hi every one :)
[07:29] <lukacu> hi
[07:32] <ogra> hey gothcat
[07:37] <gothcat> ogra: hi :)
[07:39] <Nafallo> ogra: she've seen pictures of you ;-)
[07:39] <ogra> hehe
[07:39] <ogra> the nice ones i hope :)
[07:42] <Nafallo> mostly from mataro and udu :-)
[07:45] <ogra> ah..
[08:27] <mpathy> hi
[08:36] <lukacu> hi :)
[08:39] <kafeine> hello :D
[08:52] <gothcat> hi!
[09:26] <kafeine>
[09:27] <kafeine> err
[09:27] <kafeine> that was mm
[09:27] <kafeine> anyway
[09:27] <kafeine> anyone with an opinion on the wiki vs. groupware thing which was the main conversation on the mailing list?
[09:28] <ogra> yes
[09:29] <Nafallo> yes
[09:30] <efbie> IMHO the wiki is there and working, we should work with what we have now, and focus on producing artwork rather than discussing for years on a non-issue. If it really become impossible with the wiki, then we could look for an alternative...
[09:30] <ogra> but since i'm a maintainer and involved in X diffeent ubuntu teams that all do their work n the wiki i'm vers biased
[09:30] <ogra> very even
[09:31] <ogra> i agree with jane that we need something better to put the artwork stuff up, but i would perfer to work with this group like with every other in ubuntu
[09:31] <Nafallo> I don't actually think this team will want to diverge to much from the rest of the community. that will only lead to isolation.
[09:33] <kafeine> then again, i think that artists in the common case aren't as used to wiki-based work as developers are, for example
[09:33] <ogra> additionally i know how overworked our administrators are and that nobody wants to be admin of php stuff in the team, so it would have to be on a vserver that is maintained by us
[09:33] <Nafallo> well, I'm not used to the wiki yet. that doesn't stop me from using it.
[09:33] <Nafallo> ogra++
[09:34] <efbie> Nafallo++ :)
[09:34] <kafeine> hm
[09:35] <Nafallo> I believe jane's mail told what ogra and I would love to see anyway :-). right ogra?
[09:35] <ogra> likely :)
[09:36] <ogra> since jane is my boss and holds the whip :)
[09:36] <Nafallo> hehe
[09:36] <kafeine> :))
[09:37] <ogra> no, seriously... my opiion is the above, but i know that its technically possible to have a vserver and run our own stuff... so lets see how a voting evolves :)
[09:37] <kafeine> my stance is that it will be lot more easier to use some tool that is exclusively made for such kind of teamwork and project leading
[09:38] <Nafallo> kafeine: and that is?
[09:38] <kafeine> and proper, anyway
[09:39] <kafeine> mm, phpgroupware or something like it
[09:39] <kafeine> or, as it was proposed, basecamp
[09:39] <Nafallo> well, that depends. the wiki would work for projectgoals, calendar, information and those kind of things.
[09:39] <Nafallo> basecamp wasn't F/OSS
[09:40] <ogra> i think what we need is a good revision control system to coordinate the collaborative artwork stuff (iconsets etc) and a good presentation platform (gallery, the art.gnome.org software etc) and coordinatig work should be done like in all other areas of ubuntu (IRC, wiki, mailinglist)
[09:41] <ogra> kafeine, whats the usecase of phpgroupware ? what do you need a calendar for ?
[09:41] <Nafallo> launchpad has personal calendars now. isn't that enough?
[09:41] <ogra> i really dont see the need for such stuff... as long as we are communicative
[09:42] <Nafallo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar suffice for most things that will need a calendar now.
[09:43] <Nafallo> plus the ical version ofcourse :-)
[09:43] <kafeine> my own concern is the visual orientation of this team
[09:43] <kafeine> only*
[09:43] <ogra> hmm, but does that need a groupware ?
[09:44] <kafeine> and the fact that the people who work with the visual arts, are, well, used to visual tools
[09:44] <Nafallo> and a calendar?
[09:44] <kafeine> not necesarilly, no
[09:44] <kafeine> and i certainly havent really said anything about no calendar
[09:44] <kafeine> but
[09:44] <ogra> hats the main usecase of phpgroupware, sharig calendars
[09:44] <ogra> thats even
[09:45] <kafeine> in those systems, most entries are presented in a much more intuitive way
[09:45] <kafeine> and show up where you expect them to be
[09:45] <kafeine> as projects
[09:45] <kafeine> people who work on projects
[09:45] <kafeine> etc
[09:45] <ogra> hmm, depends how you define intuitive...
[09:46] <Nafallo> well, the wiki have things were you told them to be :-)
[09:46] <kafeine> i certainly dont define intuitive as located somewhere in a pile of text in a page that looks exactly as the last one
[09:46] <kafeine> but anyway, that's just me:)
[09:46] <kafeine> i'll work with anything
[09:46] <Nafallo> and I love to find things were I left them :-)
[09:47] <ogra> i will go with the group decision.... :)
[09:47] <kafeine> same here
[09:47] <kafeine> mm
[09:47] <kafeine> anyway, can someone put up a list with all the icons that need to be done
[09:48] <kafeine> and all the icons that are done already, propositions for icons, etc
[09:48] <kafeine> and posting some guidelines for the promo materials (posters, flyers, stickers) in near time would be nice, too
[09:48] <ogra> i think all mime types, all apps and folders wer the desired target
[09:49] <Nafallo> ogra: all apps in main and restricted I hope you mean?
[09:49] <ogra> i guess so
[09:50] <ogra> we'll need at least 16x16, 22x22, 24x24 and 48x48 bitmap versions and scalable svg versions...
[09:50] <efbie> that's a work of titans
[09:51] <ogra> and beware, you cant just scale down the svg and make a bitmap of it.... bitmaps need to be redone manually to work out the details
[09:51] <Nafallo> when was the meeting again?
[09:51] <ogra> efbie, AndyFitz has already done a lot
[09:52] <ogra> and yes, its a hell lot of work
[09:52] <efbie> ogra: yes i know, :) i did a bunch of icons too
[09:52] <efbie> but retouching pixel by pixel will be a _Huge_ work
[09:53] <ogra> yep
[09:53] <efbie> some things can be automated
[09:53] <ogra> but we want a awesome iconset, dont we ?
[09:53] <efbie> hehe
[09:53] <ogra> in my opinion it should impress the world as ubuntu itself does ;)
[09:54] <efbie> yep
[09:54] <efbie> it should make mac peope jealous
[09:54] <ogra> hehe
[09:54] <kafeine> hard job:D
[09:54] <ogra> yep
[09:54] <efbie> but not impossible
[09:55] <ogra> and its not only icons :)
[09:55] <kafeine> what a relief:D
[09:55] <ogra> splash, wallpaper etc
[09:56] <efbie> the hard thing is to make beautiful artwork that remains "professional"
[09:57] <efbie> gnome defaults look professional, but isn't that beautiful
[09:58] <ogra> have you seen what jimmac does ? a quality like that would be the greatest...
[09:59] <ogra> he did the gnome default years back... but does also custom sets for ximian/novell
[09:59] <efbie> yes it's really nice
[10:00] <ogra> and the custom sets *are* beautiful :)
[10:03] <kafeine> mm
[10:04] <kafeine> we need some more info on the various work that is to be done posted on the wiki
[10:04] <kafeine> cause i have no experience with icon making and i'm all useless right now
[10:05] <efbie> yep.
[10:05] <efbie> I would especially like to have artistical guidelines from Andy
[10:07] <ogra> lets poke him if australia wakes up ;)
[10:08] <ogra> also keep in mind that sabdfl can overrule everything in ubuntu ;) so if he doesnt like it it might get dropped...
[10:08] <efbie> yep
[10:09] <efbie> it scares me a little
[10:09] <efbie> could we ask him an early review ?
[10:09] <ogra> (we had a really awful splashscreen short before the hoary release...he made the current one and dropped the ugly one...was a good decision)
[10:09] <mpathy> oh i am late.. I have a opinion too *gg*
[10:10] <ogra> efbie, absolutely... he will want it... to see where it goes
[10:10] <Nafallo> ogra: spatial was a bad though ;-)
[10:10] <ogra> Nafallo, he knows that ;)
[10:10] <Nafallo> ogra: good :-)
[10:10] <Nafallo> well, shower for me and gothcat. bbl
[10:11] <kafeine> mpathy, freedom of speech is here
[10:11] <efbie> as i must reinstall my system, do you think that it's a good idea to use breezy ?
[10:11] <mpathy> kafeine: ..but I first have to read all the lines *g*
[10:12] <kafeine> efbie, not really
[10:12] <efbie> ok
[10:12] <ogra> efbie, probably in a week or two.... X is currently a PITA
[10:13] <efbie> k
[10:13] <mpathy> whats with this launchpad? its an ubuntu thing and have some nice tools.. but efbie you are right, its all secondary!
[10:15] <ogra> mpathy, launchpad is for collaborative: translating, code development bugtracking beyond distro borders and community management... i dont think there is something usable for artwork development (except management stuff probably)
[10:16] <ogra> its "sourceforge-next-generation" :)
[10:17] <efbie> what's lacking in the wiki is something to visualize thing
[10:17] <mpathy> ogra: oh okay.. i looked over it only short time.. my problem with the wiki at ubuntu is, that its relatively unstructured..
[10:18] <ogra> mpathy, its up to us to build a structure below our site....
[10:18] <mpathy> efbie: right! combined with some sort of upload area!?
[10:19] <ogra> mpathy, and i think some people of the docteam would disagree about the "unstructured" (i agree with you btw ;) )
[10:21] <mpathy> ogra: thx ;o) Its only because I want to keep the track, dont lost any information.. as long its all in the mailing list, its okay.. so because of that a central ubuntu-artwork news page would be good.
[10:21] <efbie> if there is a structure in the wiki it is far from being obvious...
[10:21] <ogra> heh
[10:21] <ogra> the docteam is small :)
[10:22] <ogra> the wiki is big....
[10:22] <mpathy> Wikipedia is even bigger and it works *gg*
[10:22] <mpathy> okay thats another thing
[10:22] <ogra> mpathy, probably there are moin plugins we could get for the news stuff...
[10:23] <mpathy> ogra: ehmm.. what wiki is the ubuntu wiki?
[10:23] <ogra> moin
[10:23] <mpathy> moin moin=
[10:23] <mpathy> oh okay
[10:23] <ogra> we had plone and zwiki before,
[11:05] <mpathy> sad that noone tries some of these nice ruby-based wikis :o)
[11:06] <ogra> *shudder* ruby *shudder*
[11:06] <ogra> :)
[11:07] <mpathy> ogra: hey! watch out ;)
[11:07] <ogra> hehe
[11:08] <mpathy> lets guess: you are more the perl-guy, and your editor is emacs.. :)
[11:08] <ogra> nope
[11:09] <ogra> i'm the multi guy (C, perl, python (!!) a lot more...) an my editor is vim ;)
[11:10] <mpathy> good editor choice.. :) ..but i never get good friend with C, perhaps the force isnt with me.. ;)
[11:10] <ogra> i was forced by ubuntu ;)
[11:11] <ogra> didnt touch much C before ....
[11:13] <mpathy> apropos the force.. did you heard about "utnubu"? ..the empire strikes back *gg*
[11:14] <ogra> yeah, its a great thing
[11:14] <ogra> i was waiting for this quite some time already... so nobody cant blame us we wouldnt give back....
[11:15] <ogra> since i think its the job of the debian maintainers to grab our patches themselves...
[11:15] <mpathy> yes.. hope the padawan doesnt kill his master, like in star wars ;)
[11:15] <ogra> buit they always meant we'd have to send them every change we make
[11:15] <ogra> no, it wont... we never can manage this amount of packages....
[11:16] <ogra> ubuntu has far less maintainers...
[11:16] <mpathy> no i meant accidentally..
[11:16] <mpathy> :o)
[11:17] <ogra> that'd be very bad for us... we cant survive without debian....
[11:17] <ogra> only if the maintainers would switch over to us...
[11:17] <mpathy> because of the hype. but right now the most people think about ubuntu as the "desktop debian".. thats okay for me..
[11:18] <mpathy> many did
[11:18] <ogra> not for me... :)
[11:18] <ogra> its a perfect server OS as well...
[11:18] <ogra> the problem is to get this across to the people
[11:19] <ogra> since everybody is convinced ubuntu is only a desktop system
[11:19] <mpathy> should produce a bit more server oriented news! :)
[11:19] <ogra> yep, we're working on it ;)
[11:22] <mpathy> like "increased amount of BOFH excuses - fortunes" ;)
[11:23] <ogra> heh
[11:35] <mpathy> someone started working on these calendar images?
[11:37] <efbie> nope
[11:37] <ogra> not to my knowledge
[11:38] <plb> what about a metacity theme ;]
[11:39] <ogra> +a
[11:39] <plb> heh
[11:43] <efbie> clearlooks is really nice, maybe a brown version would fit ?
[11:44] <mpathy> ll
[11:45] <mpathy> efbie: yes would be nice.. clearlooks is nice
[11:45] <mpathy> omg.. e17 is so awesome fast..
[11:47] <ogra> it took them 6 years to develop it... so this should be the least ....
[11:47] <mpathy> hope ubuntu will be the first who gets it into his packages ;)
[11:47] <ogra> sadly he made themself incompatible with the rest of the world, so you'll need to write a lot of apps for it...
[11:48] <ogra> and it really crappy unstable for now...
[11:48] <efbie> e17 looks like the future, but now
[11:48] <ogra> nothing to give to users
[11:49] <ogra> efbie, e17 looks like a nice proof of concept thingie...but with their development speed you'll see the first stable release in about 5 years
[11:49] <mpathy> yes its not even a beta.. but its amazing :)
[11:50] <ogra> sadly they work against freedesktop org... and they are no friends of it...
[11:51] <ogra> raster (the e17 dev) wrote a lengthy rant against freedesktop, QT and GTK last year....
[11:52] <efbie> and i thought that linux was all about interoperability....
[11:52] <ogra> ...not something that brings you many developers in to speed things up :(
[11:52] <efbie> lol
[11:53] <ogra> sure, you can run other apps on top... but its an additional ressource hog to have a WM that uses all its own stuff (libs etc)
[11:53] <mpathy> but they also have some good concepts.. and some not so good.. like most time..
[11:54] <ogra> nicer would have been if they had put these ideas and the work into gnome or kde to improve these
[11:54] <mpathy> the other apps feels like they run at same speed..
[11:54] <efbie> and those next gen things like cairo and luminocity, are these science-fiction, or are they likely to be in gnome before the next duke nukem ?
[11:55] <ogra> cairo is already in breezy.. the breezy firefox already renders its fonts with it
[11:55] <mpathy> luminocity is not so different from the things that work even now on e17.. (as an non-programmers opinion *g*)
[11:56] <ogra> luminocity will be ready soon... and xgl looks promising
[11:56] <ogra> i saw demos of all of them at guadec this year
[11:56] <mpathy> but have a look anyway:
[11:56] <mpathy> http://livecd.debianitas.net/screenshots/prueba2.mpg
[11:57] <ogra> and they are all developed by paied people that spend much time on improving them
[11:57] <ogra> mpathy, i know the e17 movies :)
[11:58] <mpathy> ogra: but thats new! 1-3 days old from a new live cd with a good working e17
[11:59] <efbie> mpathy: looks quite nice :)
[12:01] <ogra> yep, it improved
[12:01] <mpathy> lot of progress in the last weeks/months..