[04:01] <pleia2> have the alt images been tested? I'm having trouble (with the image from the 21st, the tracker updated right after I downloaded it :P)
[04:07] <pleia2> I'll run again on a VM tomorrow when more people are awake and I can copy the install package errors into a bug report
[09:32] <astraljava> pleia2: I intend to test them as well, I'm afraid not many of the images have been tested.
[09:43] <hobgoblin> astraljava: I read the QA stuff the other day - am I right in thinking that the tests I did shoudl have been fails as far as balloons is concerned
[09:56] <ochosi> astraljava: how familiar are you with c/gtk?
[09:59] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Yes, you are. That's why I mentioned it on the meeting; whenever a step in the testcase fails, the whole test is marked as failed.
[09:59] <astraljava> ochosi: I know C better than GTK, but not a complete stranger to that one either.
[09:59] <ochosi> ok
[09:59] <ochosi> i just have a quick question
[09:59] <ochosi> look at indicator-sound's source here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/indicator-sound/precise/view/head:/src/volume-widget.c#L101
[09:59] <ochosi> that's where it sets the icons cornering the gtk-scale
[10:00] <ochosi> from what i gather, it should prefer a 16px icon, because it sets GTK_ICON_SIZE_MENU
[10:01] <ochosi> since our panel is 22px high, it should be possible to use different icons for the volume-indicator in the panel and the icons in the sound-menu, right?
[10:02] <astraljava> Oh totally, but I need to poke around a bit to see how exactly.
[10:02]  * astraljava just woke up, and had weird metaphorical dreams about his own past life
[10:02] <astraljava> I shoulda known better to engage to this deeply analytical discussion with my brother last night.
[10:03] <ochosi> (specifically, i want to fix this: http://imagebin.org/217441 )
[10:03] <ochosi> hehe
[10:03] <ochosi> we have the same problem with the nm-applet
[10:03] <ochosi> we need a bright icon in the panel and dark icons in the menu ideally
[10:04] <astraljava> Err... I must have sleep dust in my eyes, still, but what's wrong with that image?
[10:05] <ochosi> ok, maybe it's not such a big problem as i assumed :}
[10:05] <ochosi> the volume-icons cornering the gtk-scale for the volume are bright!!!
[10:05] <ochosi> ;)
[10:05] <astraljava> Ahh... you're right.
[10:05] <ochosi> if i don't fix it, bluesabre will spam me with bugreports in 12.10 again :)
[10:05] <astraljava> Now that you mention it, they do kinda suck.
[10:05] <ochosi> awwh
[10:06] <astraljava> Heheh. :D
[10:06] <ochosi> man!
[10:06] <ochosi> ok, off for lunch, bbiab
[10:06] <astraljava> Sorry, I mean "they are white, man! make the darker!!"
[10:06] <astraljava> ;)
[11:15] <ochosi> astraljava: almost there: http://imagebin.org/217445
[11:16] <astraljava> Whee! Better. :)
[11:16] <ochosi> now, i have to improve the padding
[11:16] <ochosi> then it's fixed i guess
[11:18] <astraljava> Cool.
[11:23] <ochosi> lucky for us, elementary have the same problem, so maybe we can simply pull their workaround
[11:23] <ochosi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/elementaryicons/+bug/1015485
[11:24] <astraljava> "It is clear that non-Canonical backed images simply can not support a rolling-QA testing plan, and depend on the milestones system." - Anyone willing to discuss this line with me?
[11:24] <ochosi> sry, gotta go
[11:25] <ochosi> have a nice weekend everyone!
[11:25] <astraljava> Thanks, you too! :)
[11:25] <ochosi> see y'all on monday :)
[11:58] <knome> ochosi, hf
[11:59] <knome> astraljava, what's to discuss?
[11:59] <knome> astraljava, if we want to go that way, we just need more testers
[11:59] <knome> astraljava, i don't think that would mean *much* more, but more
[11:59] <astraljava> knome: What makes you think we'd need more testers?
[12:00] <knome> currently, the situation is kind of hard because the small amount of testers burn them out on milestones
[12:00] <knome> because people can't be around all the time
[12:00] <astraljava> That's really my point.
[12:00] <astraljava> Are milestones really, actually, beneficial?
[12:00] <astraljava> Testers are burnt out on early milestones, and might not even appear anymore during the most important times.
[12:01] <knome> i think there are pros to milestones too
[12:01] <astraljava> I've seen this happen.
[12:01] <astraljava> Sure there are. But would this change really be that bad that many people make it seem to?
[12:02] <knome> hmm.
[12:02] <knome> i think it would be harder to *start* testing
[12:02] <knome> right now, there are specific times when testing is *certainly* needed
[12:02] <astraljava> If we think of it from the Xfce4-side. How often can we even predict that important changes can be scheduled for milestones, anyway?
[12:03] <astraljava> Yeah, I'm not disputing that.
[12:03] <knome> if ubuntu goes the non-milestone way, can't we then schedule our own milestones?
[12:03] <knome> say, publish both one alpha and one beta, when we are ready to
[12:03] <astraljava> Yes, of course we can.
[12:03] <astraljava> Right.
[12:03] <astraljava> So again, I'm not seeing this change as such a bad thing, really.
[12:04] <knome> that would bring us the good from the more relaxed (non-time-based) scheduling, but also leave us with the benefits from milestones
[12:04] <knome> me neither.
[12:04] <knome> but i'm not sure what the correct way towards non-milestone testing would be
[12:04] <astraljava> Ok, good. I thought I was going insane with this. I don't mean I already am not. :)
[12:04] <knome> reorganizing users doesn't happen overnight
[12:04] <knome> and i think it IS good that we have some kind of milestones
[12:05] <astraljava> No, it doesn't. We just have to be more active, and market the needs in beforehand.
[12:05] <knome> but i'm not saying we should define how many/when
[12:05] <knome> i'm thinking it makes sense to have milestones for example when you introduce a new default app
[12:05] <astraljava> Yep. It doesn't necessarily serve us that well, the vanilla schedule, that is.
[12:06] <astraljava> Sure. The independence would actually benefit _our_ QA much better.
[12:07] <knome> that does mean that there needs to be somebody responsible for the QA who knows where the team is going
[12:07] <knome> of course, you are here now, but for the future too, when situations might change
[12:07] <astraljava> That's true.
[12:07] <astraljava> The coordination becomes much more important.
[12:08] <astraljava> But I intend to develop some processes so that it isn't too dependent on just one person.
[12:08] <knome> great.
[12:08] <knome> do we need to inform somebody if we switch to any other scheduling than now?
[12:09] <knome> the other question i have is that will the QA tracker support making a specific iso a "milestone", eg. not showing up as daily
[12:09] <astraljava> I think we should chat with Nick before we make any permanent changes.
[12:09] <astraljava> That's a good point, and again I'd like a word with him and jibel and whoever's involved with that.
[12:10] <knome> yes, that sounds like a plan
[12:10] <knome> if possible, involve me and our testers
[12:11] <astraljava> Yes of course.
[12:11] <astraljava> I won't be doing any decisions myself, certainly not on matters of this magnitude. :)
[12:12] <hobgoblin> astraljava: what time is this meeting on sunday for the ones like me ?
[12:13] <knome> well of course. that needs to be escalated to the community meeting for sure, but i don't think it's bad to involve community even in the investigating/just-wondering-if -stage
[12:14] <astraljava> knome: Yeah, well even if everyone cannot be there at the same time, I'd like to introduce the fruits of the initial chatter to the team before we even make any decisions. I believe we will nevertheless introduce this change for the next cycle, anyway.
[12:15] <astraljava> hobgoblin: http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Xubuntu+QA+meeting&iso=20120624T16&ah=2
[12:15] <knome> astraljava, right'o. keep me informed :)
[12:15] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Are you on the mailing lists?
[12:16] <astraljava> knome: I will.
[12:16] <hobgoblin> astraljava: cool thanks - yes I am - but I forget to remember what I've read
[12:17] <hobgoblin> and I deleted a whole bunch in the week following my isp issues
[12:17] <astraljava> "forget to remember"
[12:17] <astraljava> That's a nice phrase.
[12:17] <hobgoblin> :)
[12:17] <astraljava> Sure. The archives can be found at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-users/2012-June/ and similar for -devel, of course.
[12:18] <hobgoblin> cheers
[12:18] <astraljava> Well, that's for June, obviously. Just go up one directory for the whole of it.
[12:18] <hobgoblin> :)
[14:07] <mr_pouit> knome: no, we can't schedule our milestones (well, we can schedule them, but not release them). For example, we need someone from Canonical to relaunch an iso build. If ubiquity is broken that particular day, we can't release a good image, etc.
[14:18] <knome> mr_pouit, yeah, sure
[14:19] <knome> mr_pouit, but does that imply any daily can't be set as "milestone" in the QA traker?
[14:19] <astraljava> mr_pouit: Well sure, but they don't normally require a milestone for a rebuild, do they?
[15:17] <mr_pouit> knome: I don't know the qa tracker very well :P (but I guess we can say: today iso is good, let's call it alpha-beta-gamme-awesome-2)
[15:17] <mr_pouit> astraljava: yeah, if you poke the right people, they can do a rebuild anytime it seems
[15:17] <hobgoblin> good - does that mean I don't need to do any daily tests :)
[15:21] <astraljava> mr_pouit: Yeah, I think what we'd want to achieve is announce that we're going to call certain date's ISO our milestone well in advance, like maybe 4 weeks ahead or something. Then we could advertise it and appeal to testers early enough.
[15:21] <astraljava> hobgoblin: CERTAINLY NOT!
[15:22] <hobgoblin> bah humbug :p
[15:22] <hobgoblin> astraljava: so did you read what I said earlier abotu the QA meeting - should I mark them as pass or fail lol
[15:22] <astraljava> As punishment for your foolery, I command you to run 30 amd64 desktops and 20 i386 alternates.
[15:23] <astraljava> hobgoblin: I thought I responded already; it'd be a fail, as any points in the testcase cause the whole test to fail.
[15:24] <hobgoblin> ok - then all my passes were in fact all fails then
[15:29] <hobgoblin> not been brave enough to do any autoresizes yet though - I'd need to disconnect my real drives I think lol
[15:32] <astraljava> Hehe. Come now, what could possibly go wrong?
[15:32] <astraljava> *blink* *blink*
[15:33] <hobgoblin> LOL
[16:01] <GridCube> knome ping
[16:03] <GridCube> well anayway, knome, i finally could open http://typewith.me/p/Ew1RtC2xCS i think its fine so im sending that to the -users list
[16:04] <GridCube> under the subject: gmusicbrowser users feedback request
[16:32] <pleia2> so, 2 problems with alt, one means I can't complete the install, anyone around to look or help me submit the bug reports? (I don't know what to file them against)
[16:32] <astraljava> pleia2: I'll try.
[16:32] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail1.jpg is the first
[16:32] <pleia2> if I select "continue" it's ok
[16:33] <pleia2> I probably should have looked at the console at that point to get more info, I can run again, this happens pretty early in the install
[16:33] <astraljava> Alright. If you could do that, great. The installer logs should be available as well in /var/log/installer/ or something like that, anyway.
[16:34] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail2.jpg is the fatal one
[16:34] <pleia2> console: http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail3.jpg
[16:34] <hobgoblin> is there a way to use usb's for alternates?
[16:34] <astraljava> Oh right, it didn't finish at all. :)
[16:34] <hobgoblin> I tried and gave up
[16:34] <astraljava> hobgoblin: unetbootin
[16:35] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Oh, sorry, no.
[16:35] <hobgoblin> did that - boots fine and then goes looking for the cd just after the start
[16:35] <hobgoblin> aah ok :)
[16:35] <astraljava> hobgoblin: It wants to use the cd drive for some reason.
[16:35] <hobgoblin> :)
[16:35] <pleia2> there is stuff in /var/log/syslog, I'll see if I can copy that somewhere
[16:36] <knome> mr_pouit, well yeah, that's what i meant about "scheduling (our own) milestones" (calling a specific daily something else than daily)
[16:38] <astraljava> knome: mr_pouit: You might wanna check out today's release meeting's logs, and the continuing discussion regarding on #ubuntu-release.
[16:38] <Sysi> at least 12.04 alternate images boot fine from usb when pushed there with dd
[16:39] <pleia2> hm, I don't actually know how I should go about getting this syslog off this virtualbox
[16:39] <pleia2> it's on the network, but doesn't seem to have any useful tools for moving a file across it
[16:40] <GridCube> pleia2: send the files to you by mail
[16:40] <pleia2> it doesn't have a mail client
[16:40] <pleia2> no mail, scp, ftp
[16:40] <GridCube> o.. correct
[16:40] <knome> astraljava, i think it's best if one of us uses the time to follow the discussion, and when they seem to get somewhere with it, point the rest with a summary
[16:41] <knome> astraljava, if you are willing to do that, great :)
[16:41] <astraljava> Oh sure, I just thought if you wanted to, as well.
[16:41] <knome> not really, if the disussion level is what is has been :|
[16:42] <knome> +c too
[16:43] <pleia2> I guess I'll just copy it to a place on disk and then mount the vdi
[16:44] <astraljava> pleia2: I'm trying to find how one could get the logs over a http interface, at least there used to be that option at some point.
[16:45] <GridCube> ... (can't you mount a pendrive and paste stuff there?)
[16:48] <pleia2> astraljava: I got it this way, no worries
[16:48] <astraljava> Ok cool.
[16:49] <pleia2> so, where to file these against?
[16:49] <astraljava> We'd need more info about the problems _from the logs_ before we could tell. :)
[16:49] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail3.jpg is the logs
[16:49] <astraljava> Can you pastebin them?
[16:49] <pleia2> yeah
[16:49] <astraljava> Thanks.
[16:50] <pleia2> hmm, darn
[16:50] <astraljava> I'll look for the package issue from the buildd logs, there should be something there. What date
[16:50] <pleia2> ok, let me try this again
[16:50] <astraljava> 's iso was  this?
[16:50] <pleia2> 22, just grabbed it a half hour ago
[16:50] <astraljava> Ok, thanks.
[16:51] <pleia2> 64-bit alt
[16:52]  * pleia2 tries to get this syslog again
[16:52] <astraljava> Package libavcodec-extra-53 blacklisted in ship-live but seeded in desktop (libgegl-0.2-0)
[16:52] <astraljava> Wonder what that means.
[16:54] <pleia2> hopefully it means you found the problem :)
[16:55] <astraljava> libavcodec cannot be shipped on CDs (c.f. Ubuntu technical board resolution 2007-01-02).
[16:55] <astraljava> micahg: Do you know anything about this? ^^
[17:01] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_syslog is the full syslog from the install
[17:10] <knome> hey pleia2 :)
[17:11] <pleia2> hello knome
[17:13] <astraljava> pleia2: No, that's not it. libavcodec53 should satisfy the depends, so it's something that it depends instead.
[17:13] <pleia2> ok, well I should probably submit the bug in an event, so..where?
[17:23] <astraljava> Let me ask a few questions.
[17:24]  * knome just opened the rum bottle, so if they are for me, be quick
[17:26] <astraljava> No, not on this channel, silly.
[17:27] <pleia2> I'll be around all day (but at work) so just pleia2: me if you need me to run a test again or anything
[17:27] <astraljava> But yeah, just realized there's a wildcard in the blacklisting entry, so libavcodec53 isn't on the cd either.
[17:27] <astraljava> Which begs the question, how does gimp get installed in the first place?
[17:28] <astraljava> hobgoblin: Do you have an instance running? If so, then did you add gimp after the installation? If not, then can you check if it's there?
[17:30] <hobgoblin> I don't - I will next time though
[17:30] <knome> astraljava, wait, why wouldn't gimp be installed?
[17:30] <hobgoblin> gimp is not something I would normally install
[17:31] <astraljava> knome: Cause gimp depends on libgegl-0.2-0, which depends on libavcodec53, which isn't on the cd because it's blacklisted.
[17:32] <micahg> astraljava: AIUI, the issue is more with pressed images than downloadable ones
[17:32] <astraljava> micahg: Ahh... so the ship and ship-live seeds don't take account on the dailies at all?
[17:33] <knome> astraljava, i thought blacklisting would allow us not to install specific packages, but wouldn't "break" other packages that depends on them
[17:33] <micahg> astraljava: we were discussing removing the gegl dep on libav (it's the only thing holding it in main ATM)
[17:33] <micahg> knome: it won't break if it's not needed :)
[17:33] <micahg> in this case, it's needed if buitl with the support AIUI
[17:33] <knome> aha, i see
[17:37]  * astraljava needs to make the whole image creation process clear for good, this is driving him insane
[17:43] <pleia2> in the tracker, how do we see results from past days?
[17:51] <knome> pleia2, i suppose you don't
[17:52] <pleia2> heh :)
[17:52] <astraljava> I was thinking you could use the xml-rpc API for it, but am not sure, I'm still in the process of writing the python scripts for it.
[17:52] <pleia2> I looked through http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/defects to find the bugs I'm seeing in 64-bit Desktop
[17:53] <pleia2> would be nice to see hobgoblin's bug reports from yesterday so I could see if they still exist
[17:53] <pleia2> http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1010487 is a fun one
[17:53] <astraljava> Did he download our Satanic Edition?
[17:53] <knome> pleia2, poke stgraber.
[17:54] <pleia2> astraljava: I'm getting this too
[17:54] <astraljava> bah
[17:54] <pleia2> black on black makes the ubiquity interesting to use
[17:54] <pleia2> possible, but pretty awful
[17:54] <astraljava> Just a bit of challenge. C'mon...
[17:54] <pleia2> :)
[17:57] <pleia2> so, after I do http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopWhole do I do http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopPostInstallation and/or our /Short?
[17:57] <hobgoblin> pleia2: if you have udisks2 installed then 2 of the bugs will nto be there :)
[17:57] <pleia2> so far nothing causes it to "fail" for me
[17:57] <hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1014635
[17:57] <hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/870297
[17:57] <hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/thunar/+bug/1014632
[17:57] <knome> pleia2, our "/Short" is always "in addition"
[17:57] <hobgoblin> those pleia2 ^^
[17:58] <pleia2> hobgoblin: thank you :)
[17:58] <pleia2> knome: gotcha
[17:58] <pleia2> udisks2?
[18:02] <pleia2> oh, so, gimp installs ok on the regular Desktop CD
[18:02]  * astraljava grumbles
[18:04] <pleia2> it's a default app, so I didn't need to specially install it or anything
[18:06] <astraljava> Ok, so there's some reason then why it isn't on the alternate, or one of its dependencies isn't. Gotta look for those next.
[18:17] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212-shutdown.jpg does not have beauiful shutdown options, is this lightdm issue or some theme?
[18:18] <knome> madnick, ^ ?
[18:29] <pleia2> ok, I'll hold off on filing this until I know and just submit the iso tracker thingy without it
[18:29] <pleia2> oh, duh, on this screen it shows "Bugs to look for List of bugs that were previously reported for this testcase."
[18:31] <knome> pleia2, heh. yeah, change for this release :)
[18:34] <pleia2> I should submit a failed test for the Alt image, but will need to submit the bugs against something first
[19:50] <mr_pouit> pleia2: changes in gtk3 theming
[19:50] <mr_pouit> you can file a bug against shimmer-themes
[19:53] <pleia2> thanks!
[19:53] <mr_pouit> (but I guess ochosi will wait for gtk to be stabilized anyway, otherwise he'd have to redo the theme each week...)
[20:25] <micahg> gtk stabilize?   probably won't happen until they're focused on gtk4 :P
[20:25] <pleia2> lol
[20:26] <pleia2> micahg: you're brilliant! what do I file this against? (installing packages fails in alt installer): http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail3.jpg
[20:26] <pleia2> I have the syslog so I can copy it properly into a report
[20:27] <micahg> pleia2: was that a general approbation or based on the comment i just made? :)
[20:28] <pleia2> hah, general
[20:28]  * micahg sees if gimp's installable :)
[20:28] <pleia2> it works fine on the desktop images
[20:28] <pleia2> just not in alt
[20:28] <micahg> oh, yeah, because the file is missing on the image
[20:29] <micahg> xubuntu-meta, this was discussed a bit earlier, has to do with libav not being on images
[20:30] <micahg> pleia2: ^^
[20:30] <pleia2> ok thanks


[10:14] <lapion>  how long will the 16.0.4 repositories remain InRelease ?
[10:39] <lapion>  how long will the 16.04.5 repositories remain InRelease ?
[14:28] <hggdh> lapion: at least until 2021 for 16.04


[00:10] <skreech__> Riddell: Saw Contribook?
[03:05] <ScottK> shadeslayer: Should go in $HOMEDIR/pbuilder.
[03:37] <ScottK> shadeslayer: I updated the saucy tarball in my $HOMEDIR, so you can copy it again and you won't have to worry about updating it.
[04:22]  * ScottK beats on pykde4.
[04:25] <skellat> LP Bug #1227585 got filed against Xubuntu originally but it looks like it is actually something Kubuntu-related
[04:47] <ScottK> skellat: NFS issues like that are almost never flavor specific.  It's possibly kernel, plymouth, or nfs that's the problem.
[05:00]  * ScottK heaves pykd4 at the archive and sleeps.
[05:00] <ScottK> Riddell: pykde4 may be fixed.  Check in an hour or so.
[05:22] <ScottK> Riddell: Not fixed.  Search for sipkdeuipart3.cpp:22329:63 in the latest build log for a quick pointer at the trouble.
[05:22]  * ScottK really sleeps now.
[06:43] <Riddell> /build/buildd/pykde4-4.11.1+git20130916/builddir-2.7/sip/kdeui/sipkdeuipart3.cpp:22329:63: error: no matching function for call to 'QList<float>::QList(QList<double>)' sipRes = new QList<qreal>(sipCpp->minorTickMarks());
[06:43] <Riddell> yeah same issue
[06:44] <Riddell> guess I need to work out how to add back QList<double>
[06:56] <Riddell> um, the QList<double> code is from a patch we added anyway from NCommander
[07:00] <Riddell> thrown pyqt and pykde into ~kubuntu-active ppa to test there
[07:02] <lordievader> Good morning.
[07:03] <Riddell> hi lordievader
[07:04] <lordievader> Hey Riddell, how are you?
[07:04] <Riddell> I'm awesome thanks :)
[07:04] <Riddell> lordievader: one obvious problem on http://griffioen.no-ip.org/Kubuntu/KubuntuDocs.html the Kubuntu wiki logo is back but it's not a wiki :)
[07:06] <lordievader> Ah, true. So that image should be changed to saying "Kubuntu docs" or something?
[07:07] <Riddell> yeah or just Kubuntu, whatever we can easily do
[07:07] <Riddell> lordievader: lots of changes I see, can you take me through them? http://starsky.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/kubuntu-docs-downloader.diff
[07:09] <lordievader> Riddell: Sure, where do you want to begin?
[07:09] <Riddell> lordievader: was going to ask what process() function was for but I see that's just moved code?
[07:10] <lordievader> Yes exactly, I moved that bit into a function so nested includes would work. (I mean an include within an include didn't work at first).
[07:10] <Riddell> lordievader: gosh did we have those?
[07:11] <lordievader> We do yes ;)
[07:12] <lordievader> The code probably is all over the place, should still make it easier to read.... -.-
[07:14] <Riddell> even code to add in Bold text, whyever is creole not doing that anyway
[07:14] <Riddell> lordievader: looks good I'll merge it in
[07:15] <Riddell> lordievader: is there a better location we can have this code so you can just edit it directly?
[07:15] <lordievader> Thought that strange too, the bold text thingie.
[07:15] <Riddell> we need to get you into a useful launchpad group so we can share code :)
[07:16] <lordievader> Whoo, that would be sweet :D
[07:18] <Riddell> lordievader: I don't suppose you fancy tacking the putting it on a local system issue now?
[07:19] <Riddell> needs going through the old kubuntu-docs package to work out just what khelpcentre expects things to be layed out as
[07:19] <Riddell> once it's working in khelpcentre locally it'll be easy for anyone to package up
[07:22] <lordievader> I'm sorry I don't fully understand what you mean. You want to get these docs onto the iso's? Is that it?
[07:27] <Riddell> lordievader: yes that's right
[07:27] <Riddell> so they can be read in khelpcentre
[07:27] <lordievader> Ah. That is pretty cool. Does khelpcenter 'read' html?
[07:27] <Riddell> and first step to that is looking at the old kubuntu-docs package to work out what files need to go where
[07:27] <Riddell> yes it can
[07:27] <Riddell> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archive/primary/+files/kubuntu-docs_12.10.1_all.deb
[07:28] <lordievader> Whoo, fancy. Right, well I can try and mess with it.
[07:29] <Riddell> so desktop files in /usr/share/kde4/apps/khelpcenter/plugins/kubuntu/ and some other files in /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/kubuntu/
[07:31] <lordievader> How can I test wether the docs are showing up correctly in the khelpcenter?
[07:31] <Riddell> lordievader: open khelpcentre and look :)
[07:32] <lordievader> Okay, thanks :)
[08:04] <soee> good morning
[08:06] <lordievader> Hey soee
[08:21] <jdrab> hi guys according to http://html5test.com rekonq(2.3.2 on 13.04) has support for forms > keygen but this does not work http://www.wufoo.com/html5/elements/4-keygen.html
[08:21] <jdrab> on the other hand firefox 24 does not support this element but it works on that wuffoo page :D
[09:59] <lordievader> Riddell: How is the css support in the khelpcenter?
[10:02] <Riddell> lordievader: um not sure, it's just khtml so it should be just the same as any web browser
[10:03] <lordievader> Riddell: RIght ok, I got a basic (read without css) working.
[10:09] <davmor2> Riddell: Man that jumper still looks good if that is a recent photo
[10:30] <Riddell> davmor2: photo from last night, that thing is precious, I don't let the moths at it!
[10:30] <Riddell> lordievader: is it at a css path it can find?
[10:30] <Riddell> lordievader: the old kubuntu-docs package must have used css no?
[10:31] <davmor2> Riddell: :D  Sue keeps meaning to do an updated one but just doesn't have much time :)
[10:34] <Riddell> davmor2: jings she's done more than enough, it's still a quality jumper and I don't think the new logo would even come out well in knitting
[10:34] <davmor2> Riddell: haha, that won't stop her you know how crazy she is for knitting challenges :D
[10:39] <lordievader> Riddell: I believe it can find it, but I don't really know what is going on. When I access the files through a webbrowser it shows up correctly.
[10:49] <lordievader> Riddell: It currently looks like this: http://griffioen.no-ip.org/kubuntu-docs.png
[10:50] <lordievader> Could it be that khelpcenter strips the css of a few tags (like the background)?
[10:57] <yossarianuk> how come the iso for 13.04 has never been updated? Its shipping we a buggy kernel .19 - that only boots up 50% of the time  and 'out the box' the desktop is broken with dual screens...
[10:57] <yossarianuk> i.e
[10:57] <yossarianuk>  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-settings/+bug/1174689
[10:57] <yossarianuk> you have to upgrade 'before' entering KDE otherwise you do not have a usable desktop
[10:57] <yossarianuk> i.e no task bar
[10:57] <yossarianuk> ,etc
[10:57] <yossarianuk> no kmenu
[10:58] <yossarianuk>  kubuntu is great once you update it...
[10:58] <yossarianuk> however newbies will just think that 'Linux sucks'
[10:59] <yossarianuk> surely with such a severe bug the iso should be updated?
[11:01] <shadeslayer> yossarianuk: I don't think ISO's are ever updated
[11:01] <shadeslayer> after being released
[11:21] <yossarianuk> shadeslayer: perhaps wize to potentially change that policy...
[11:22] <shadeslayer> not really
[11:43] <yossarianuk> ok at the minute I have just lost 2 people who wanted to try out linux for the first time.
[11:44] <yossarianuk> they thought the desktop was not meant to have a menu or be usable.
[11:44] <yossarianuk> i.e they are re-installing windows 8
[11:44] <yossarianuk> which is terrible
[11:44] <yossarianuk> had the desktop worked they would have been happy using it...
[11:45] <yossarianuk> but by default the desktop is broken with dual monitors.
[11:49] <Tm_T> yossarianuk: broken?
[11:49] <lordievader> yossarianuk: If updating worked for you, did you suggest that to them?
[11:49] <Tm_T> Nvidia, ahhh
[11:50] <yossarianuk> its find after updating = hence my query about updating the iso
[11:50] <yossarianuk> yes i did -  but they now think Linux is buggy and have given up using the desktop....
[11:50] <Riddell> yossarianuk: we only update the LTS images, it's a large operation.  but you can install updates during installation
[11:51] <yossarianuk> To be hinest if it had been my 1st experience I would have 2...
[11:51] <yossarianuk> fair enough.
[11:51] <Riddell> sorry to hear of the bad experience
[11:51] <yossarianuk> the kernel should also have been updated the .19 one fails to boot about 50% of the time
[11:52] <yossarianuk> (on nvidia + intel h./w)
[11:53] <yossarianuk> its annoying as its fine after updating .... Which is why updating the .iso could have been a good idea. (but yes it i imagine it would be a lot of work..)#
[11:53] <yossarianuk> I have alsio suggested trying again when 13.10 is out.
[11:57] <yossarianuk> p.s - i'm not just trolling - I use kubuntu at home + work .... I just want Linux desktop to succeed.
[11:57] <yossarianuk> Thank you all for your efforts ...
[11:59] <yossarianuk> One thing I wish Kubuntu would do seeing as the Xorg/Mir split will be happening is to always have the latest version of the Nvidia driver in the normal repos.
[11:59] <yossarianuk> even the 319-updates, etc is not the latest version...
[12:00] <yossarianuk> it makes no sense to ship a Nvidia driver with known bugs in (and that doesn;t support  latest h/w) in the name of 'stability'.
[12:05] <debfx> actually 319 is the latest stable driver from nvidia
[12:47] <shadeslayer> what debfx said
[12:58] <Riddell> hey I worked out how to make a pandaboard accessible to the outside world!
[12:58] <Riddell> who wants a try?
[13:01] <yossarianuk> 319 - is  the latest - however its not in 13.04 by default...
[13:01] <yossarianuk> als the 319 package is not the latest 319 version...
[13:02] <shadeslayer> Riddell: can do
[13:02] <shadeslayer> which reminds me, I need to check my qtwebkit build
[13:23] <Riddell> ScottK: what sort of storage do you have on your arm box?
[13:23] <shadeslayer> I think he had a usb stick
[13:26] <Riddell> yeah it's not huge, only 8G
[13:28] <Riddell> shadeslayer: what are you doing with qt webkit?
[13:28] <shadeslayer> fixing it
[13:28] <Riddell> shadeslayer: how?
[13:28] <shadeslayer> 2.3.2 is failing on armhf
[13:29] <shadeslayer> Riddell: added DEFINES+=WTF_USE_3D_GRAPHICS=0
[13:29] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yeah, where are you building it and how did you work out that fix?
[13:29] <shadeslayer> building it on Scott's ARM boxes
[13:30] <shadeslayer> and got that tip from carewolf in #qtwebkit
[13:30] <shadeslayer> going to take ages
[13:31] <Riddell> shadeslayer: ah I see ScottK's arm has a 15G drive on /var/cache/pbuilder too
[13:32] <shadeslayer> Project ERROR: Failed to run perl /tmp/buildd/qtwebkit-source-2.3.2/Tools/qmake/syncqt-4.8 -outdir /tmp/buildd/qtwebkit-source-2.3.2/WebKitBuild/Release -separate-module QtWebKit:/tmp/buildd/qtwebkit-source-2.3.2/Source:WebKit/qt/Api
[13:32] <shadeslayer> :(
[13:33] <Riddell> um, that seems unrelated to anything
[13:33] <shadeslayer> yeah
[13:33] <shadeslayer> I think I'll clean it
[13:33] <shadeslayer> and run it again
[13:33] <Riddell> phew, pyqt is slow on this qemu launchpad builder https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-active/+archive/ppa/+build/5035117
[13:35] <smartboyhw> ?
[13:36] <Riddell> ??
[13:44] <BluesKaj> Howdy all
[14:04] <apol> JontheEchidna: ping
[15:58] <shadeslayer> tsdegos bought us all Dragon Ball Z cans
[15:58] <shadeslayer> with strawberry liquid in then
[15:58] <shadeslayer> *them
[16:58] <Riddell> shadeslayer: whatever is Dragon Ball Z ?
[16:58] <shadeslayer> :O
[16:58] <shadeslayer> :O
[16:58] <lordievader> O.O
[16:58] <shadeslayer> oh yeah
[16:58] <shadeslayer> I forget
[16:59] <shadeslayer> you're old
[16:59] <shadeslayer> :P
[16:59] <lordievader> Hehe
[17:00] <shadeslayer> Riddell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Z
[17:00] <shadeslayer> Riddell: tsdegos is as old as you and *he* knows about DBZ
[17:01] <Riddell> ah, cartoons, is bugs bunny in it? I like bugs bunny
[17:01] <shadeslayer> it's equivalent to asking "What's Doctor Who"
[17:02] <shadeslayer> hah no
[17:07] <lordievader> Nice comeback though.
[17:16] <shadeslayer> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/09/a-look-back-at-every-ubuntu-default-wallpaper
[17:16] <shadeslayer> is it just me, or are the last 3 default wallpapers look exactly the same
[17:18] <Riddell> not just you
[20:22] <Riddell> gosh nasty comment on http://blogs.kde.org/2013/09/20/winter-coming#comments
[20:24] <Riddell> and there I was thinking the advantage of a blogs.kde.org blog was it's too much hassle for the trolls to comment
[20:25] <Riddell> hah someone deleted it


[01:32] <chuxxsss> hi all
[01:35] <jrib> hi chuxxsss
[01:41] <chuxxsss> Hi Jrib what happening
[01:42] <chuxxsss> just setting up 8.10 on a HP xw8200 workstation with a quadro 256M card in it
[01:48] <jrib> chuxxsss: installing smoothly?
[01:59] <chuxxsss> jrib had to use alt CD would not work with normal beta other than that and when I rebooted fence tool started up ok
[01:59] <chuxxsss> Urban terror look good on it
[02:01] <chuxxsss> now if someone set up a script for comp fusion to do all the need stuff maybe I could start people here to convert from windows
[02:06] <chuxxsss> Why is wine so old in 8.10
[02:08] <persia> chuxxsss, It's the version of wine that the Ubuntu wine maintainer felt would be most stable for the 8.10 support timeframe (18 months).
[02:08] <persia> Since that's the same person that puts up images at winehq, there's probably a good reason.
[02:11] <chuxxsss> o.k I when to the site understand now
[02:12] <chuxxsss> Thank you persia
[02:15] <chuxxsss> must paid for crossover soon so I can show my kids that it not all about one OS


[00:18] <Bashing-om> UWN: Opening 833 shortly for the day's update.
[00:40] <Bashing-om> UWB: update completed - saved and out.
[01:50] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::planet:: Simos Xenitellis: How to run an Incus VM inside an Incus VM (nested virtualization) @ https://blog.simos.info/how-to-run-an-incus-vm-inside-an-incus-vm-nested-virtualization/
[07:03] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::portugal:: E292 O Nabo Da Casa @ https://podcastubuntuportugal.org/e292/
[17:07] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::omg!ubuntu:: Ubuntu 24.04 Takes Cheese Off the Menu @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2024/03/ubuntu-24-04-swaps-cheese-snapshot-webcam-app
[20:42] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::planet:: Podcast Ubuntu Portugal: E292 O Nabo Da Casa @ https://podcastubuntuportugal.org/e292/
[20:42] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::planet:: Ubuntu Blog: Meet Canonical at Embedded World 2024 @ https://ubuntu.com//blog/meet-canonical-at-embedded-world-2024
[20:42] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::planet:: Scarlett Gately Moore: Kubuntu, KDE Report. In Loving Memory of my Son. @ https://www.scarlettgatelymoore.dev/kubuntu-kde-report-in-loving-memory-of-my-son/
[23:20] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::omg!ubuntu:: Ubuntu in the Wild – Distro Used in Award-Winning Nature Film ‘Nocturnes’ @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2024/03/nocturnes-moth-documentary-ubuntu


[00:03] <Sergobot> yofel: Launchpad rejected new .changes file.
[00:04] <Sergobot> What should I do?
[00:06] <yofel> why?
[00:07] <Sergobot> yofel: https://paste.kde.org/p6s4ma6pt
[00:08] <yofel> well, the package you uploaded already exists with that version. When you change a package and want to upload a new version you always have to increase the package version
[00:49] <Sergobot> yofel: can you help me again? kdelibs5-dev are successfully built, but I can't build marble at Launchpad using these.
[00:53] <yofel> Sergobot: again, log please
[00:54] <Sergobot> yofel: http://goo.gl/80qf0l
[00:56] <yofel> kdelibs5-dev(inst 4:4.13.3-0ubuntu0.2 ! >= wanted 4:4.14.1)
[00:56] <yofel> so the buildd didn't see your backport?
[00:56] <yofel> were the binaries published when you started the build?
[00:59] <Sergobot> yofel: hm, will try to rebuild
[00:59] <yofel> Sergobot: do you know what I just meant with published?
[00:59] <Sergobot> yofel: no
[01:00] <Sergobot> :)
[01:01] <yofel> a build on launchpad has a couple states it goes through: Needs Build -> Building -> Built -> Uploaded -> Published (there's also Depwait and FTBFS for failures)
[01:03] <yofel> Needs build is shown with Brackets, Building has the cake animation, Uploaded is green gears, Published is the green checkmark
[01:03] <Sergobot> yofel: oh, all package at my PPA are now Published
[01:03] <yofel> depwait a puzzle piece, FTBFS the red X
[01:04] <yofel> unless a build is published, it's not part of the PPA's package list in apt, so it won't show up in a build that uses the PPA
[01:04] <yofel> so if you rebuild marble now, it should work...
[01:11] <Sergobot> yofel: Thank you very mush! Now Marble builds successfully! Thank you again!
[01:11] <Sergobot> *much
[01:11] <soee> :)
[01:13] <soee> the packages in kubuntu-ci are build with qt 5.4 now ?
[06:13] <soee> Riddell: when will you add QT 5.4 to vivid ?
[06:17] <bikai> soee: ping
[06:19] <soee> bikai: pong ?
[06:20] <bikai> soee: I am still stuck with that wordpress problem need some help!
[06:20] <soee> what problem ?
[06:20] <bikai> to display the latest articles as thumbnails
[06:20] <bikai> in the latest article section
[06:21] <soee> and the function we talked onece does not work ?
[06:21] <bikai> http://test2.kubuntu.co.uk/wordpress/
[06:21] <bikai> nope it did not help
[06:22] <bikai> I tried creating a template for it but I only got so far https://paste.kde.org/p1an59hdt
[06:22] <soee> what about some widget https://wordpress.org/plugins/special-recent-posts/ ?
[06:24] <bikai> It does not display according to our need. We only need the thumbnail
[06:24] <bikai> no discription
[06:25] <bikai> All I need is an example to learn how loop and wp query work to achive the same
[06:27] <soee> or use own template right ?
[06:27] <bikai> yes
[06:30] <soee> bikai: maybe http://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/creating-a-customizable-post-list-template-with-advanced-custom-fields/
[06:31] <soee> check https://gist.githubusercontent.com/danielpataki/2443a9e4f5aa44187b90/raw/post-list-template-querytemplate.php
[06:34] <bikai> soee: I tried the second one before but did not get any result.
[06:35] <soee> and do you had any posts on teh website ?
[06:38] <bikai> yes
[06:38] <soee> than custom query should loop through them
[06:38] <bikai> I have all the posts imported from kubuntu.org
[06:39] <soee> maybe you had wrong args set
[06:39] <bikai> can you give me an example of how to use it?
[06:39] <soee> just use the one wrom the example
[06:40] <soee> its very basic but should return post
[06:40] <soee> *posts list
[06:40] <bikai> ok,
[12:33] <BluesKaj_> 'Morning all and a Happy New Year!
[16:33] <Odur> Happy New Year to you all!
[16:34] <Odur> (6h and 27 min left here in Sweden)
[16:34] <bsdtux> Same to you.
[16:34] <bsdtux> I still have over 12+ hours before new years here
[17:43] <bsdtux> Could some one tell me where I might find Passwords and Keys. I am trying to create a openpgp key by following this article  https://launchpad.net/+help-registry/openpgp-keys.html but I can't seem to find the app on my system or from Muon Discover
[17:45] <bsdtux> Nevermind found it by installing Kleopatra
[18:52] <ShalokShalom> kubuntu 1404 goes into sleep here and return always in busy box
[18:52] <ShalokShalom> cant restore data in life stick because of that
[23:09] <yofel> Happy new year everyone!


[07:03] <Saviq> Morn'
[08:49] -GitHub[m]:#mir-server- **[MirServer/mir]** AlanGriffiths opened [pull request #2561](https://github.com/MirServer/mir/pull/2561): More default quirks... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/828a5bb8f03e6505cc4900400af98446ad315e36)
[10:23] -GitHub[m]:#mir-server- **[MirServer/mir]** bors[bot] merged [pull request #2561](https://github.com/MirServer/mir/pull/2561): More default quirks
[10:25] -GitHub[m]:#mir-server- **[MirServer/mir]** AlanGriffiths drafted [pull request #2562](https://github.com/MirServer/mir/pull/2562): Release 2.9.0
[14:10] -GitHub[m]:#mir-server- **[MirServer/mir]** AlanGriffiths edited [pull request #2562](https://github.com/MirServer/mir/pull/2562): Release 2.9.0
[16:49] -GitHub[m]:#mir-server- **[MirServer/mir]** AlanGriffiths opened [issue #2563](https://github.com/MirServer/mir/issues/2563): [Mir 2.9~rc2, miral-kiosk] Failure to display... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/0be1039b761f705c68abbbaade534d6f33338650)
[16:59] <alan_g[m]> Good evening o/
[17:05] <Saviq> o/
[19:46] -GitHub[m]:#mir-server- **[MirServer/mir]** felixonmars opened [pull request #2564](https://github.com/MirServer/mir/pull/2564): Correct a typo in MirCommon.cmake
[20:52] -GitHub[m]:#mir-server- **[MirServer/mir]** bors[bot] merged [pull request #2564](https://github.com/MirServer/mir/pull/2564): Correct a typo in MirCommon.cmake
[22:12] <PHB> hi, all
[22:13] <PHB> could you explained me to make this work https://github.com/MirServer/ubuntu-frame/issues/68
[22:13] <PHB> idle-timeout working with ubuntu-frame
[22:14] <PHB> but i'am don't understand what command put on ssh to " SimulateUserActivity "
[22:15] <PHB> if someone can help me, thank you for your assistance
[22:18] <PHB> for information, stack => Debian 11 minimal / snap ubuntu-frame + ubuntu-frame-osk + wpe-webkit-mir-kiosk
[22:20] <ogra> PHB, you might need to wait til europe workday starts again ... most devs will be AFK already
[22:21] <PHB> ho, sorry for distrub and my bad english ;)
[22:21] <ogra> heh, you do not disturb and your english is good enough for me as a german 😉
[22:22] <PHB> great ! i'am french guy's
[22:23] <ogra> great, most of the developers are in europe too and will be around during normal office hours
[22:24] <PHB> i'am reading the next version can do this but i note see i sample, i can test it on beta channel (rc2:p  ) on proxmox guest environnement
[23:14] <PHB> good night, see you tomorrow ;)
[23:34] <sophie-w> As I said in the bug
[23:34] <sophie-w> > A simple command line program could easily be written to wake up the screen at a particular time.
[23:34] <sophie-w> It would need to implement https://github.com/MirServer/mir/blob/main/src/wayland/protocol/idle-inhibit-unstable-v1.xml. A minor problem is that this protocol requires the client to create a surface before it inhibits the compositor from idling.
[23:34] <sophie-w> Perhaps you could use https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlroots/-/blob/master/examples/layer-shell.c as an example. The problem could make a transparent layer shell surface (so that it does not steal focus) and use that to inhibit idle.
[23:34] <sophie-w> (Looks like PHB left, feel free to copy/paste that for them if they return)


[16:21] <cousin_luigi> Greetings.
[16:22] <cousin_luigi> Is gnome-mpv an ubuntu project?
[16:22] <wxl> cousin_luigi: no. it's a gnome project.
[16:22] <cousin_luigi> wxl: k, thanks
[19:38] <Unit193> bdrung: Hello, pyhunspell seems to be out of date by a few years.  Was there any chance you'd be able to update that?


[00:10] <davecheney> niemeyer: do you have any further comments on https://codereview.appspot.com/6215045/ ?
[00:18] <niemeyer> davecheney: Heya
[00:18] <niemeyer> davecheney: Good morning
[00:19] <niemeyer> davecheney: I'll have a pass on your branches
[00:19] <niemeyer> davecheney: Just back from dinner now
[00:19] <niemeyer> davecheney: Will finish Rog's one first, though.. already half way through the massive branch
[00:48] <niemeyer> davecheney: ping?
[00:51] <davecheney> ack
[00:55] <niemeyer> davecheney: Heya
[00:55] <niemeyer> davecheney: How are you?
[00:55] <davecheney> good
[00:55] <davecheney> sorry, was downstairs having breakfast
[00:55] <niemeyer> davecheney: No worries at all
[00:55] <davecheney> i generally work from when I get up to when sam gets up
[00:55] <niemeyer> davecheney: Just wanted to take the chance we're both up and kicking to chat a bit
[00:56] <davecheney> sure thing
[00:56] <niemeyer> davecheney: Who's Sam?
[00:56] <davecheney> my partner
[00:56] <davecheney> she's not a morning person
[00:56] <niemeyer> davecheney: Aha, I can understand that! :)
[00:57] <davecheney> so, what can I do to get those reviews cleared away
[00:57] <niemeyer> davecheney: I work in the morning because I interact with the guys in the EU, but it's certainly not my most productive moment in the day
[00:57] <niemeyer> davecheney: I'm just finishing that monster review for Rog.. I have yours next up
[00:57] <davecheney> no worries
[00:57] <niemeyer> davecheney: I think I still have spare energy to get through them
[00:58] <davecheney> i'm not blocked at the moment
[00:58] <niemeyer> davecheney: How've you been feeling this week with the work-at-home situation?
[00:58] <davecheney> it's working well
[00:59] <davecheney> i ordered a new X220
[00:59] <davecheney> so when taht arrives i'll be more mobile
[00:59] <davecheney> but for the moment i'm just kicking it in the spare room
[01:06] <niemeyer> davecheney: Nice. Coincidently, my battery just died today, so I'm stuck in the office :)
[01:07] <davecheney> so i read
[01:07] <davecheney> li-ions tend to fall off a cliff
[01:11] <niemeyer> Phew..
[01:12] <niemeyer> davecheney: Yeah
[01:12] <niemeyer> Branch reviewed
[01:12] <niemeyer> That was a long oen
[01:12] <davecheney> nice work
[01:12] <davecheney> i understand, small branches >> large brances
[01:13] <andrewsmedina> hi guys
[01:13] <andrewsmedina> :D
[01:16]  * davecheney waves
[01:23] <niemeyer> davecheney: https://codereview.appspot.com/6215045/ has a review, and LGTM with the points addressed.
[01:23] <niemeyer> andrewsmedina: Heya!
[01:23] <niemeyer> andrewsmedina: juju team is 24x7 now ;)
[01:24] <niemeyer> Well, 24x5 at least!
[01:24] <andrewsmedina> I'm 24x7
[01:24] <andrewsmedina> niemeyer: I'm working on https://codereview.appspot.com/6099051/
[01:25] <niemeyer> andrewsmedina: No, I'm serious.. davecheney is in Australia.. we're going round-the-clock now :)
[01:25] <davecheney> niemeyer: thanks for https://codereview.appspot.com/6215045/, i'll address those comments and submit
[01:25] <andrewsmedina> I will tell you when I finish it
[01:27] <niemeyer> davecheney: My pleasure, and thanks
[01:27] <niemeyer> andrewsmedina: Super!
[01:28] <davecheney> negronjl: re your final comment
[01:28] <davecheney> I would personally find it ok if we injected the "name" attribute on the
[01:28] <davecheney> environment configuration when reading it out of environments.yaml.
[01:28] <davecheney> can I handle that in a later branch ?
[01:28] <davecheney> i'll change the config to be a TODO
[01:32] <davecheney> niemeyer: did you have a chance to consider the race with AddMachine() ?
[01:32] <niemeyer> davecheney: Re. "name", yeah, definitely.. wasn't suggesting it'd be for the same branch. I suggest fixing the "TODO", though.
[01:33] <niemeyer> davecheney: re. the race, which race?
[01:33] <davecheney> the way state.AddMachine works currently, it's changes are visible to the MachineWatcher while the topology is inconsistent
[01:35] <niemeyer> davecheney: Duh.. that kind of thing is the core reason why we have the topology
[01:35] <niemeyer> davecheney: I forgot about it when reviewing. Thanks a lot for pointing that out.
[01:36] <davecheney> i haven't looked into it too much, but it might be possible to fix the problem by reordering the operations inside AddMachines
[01:36] <davecheney> but as it stands now, the MachineWatcher observes /machines changing, but when it calls state.Machine("the name of the key that just arrived"), it can fail because the topology has not yet changed to reflect that
[01:37] <niemeyer> davecheney: The only reason we have a central monotonic topology is so that we can get atomicity in that kind of operation
[01:38] <niemeyer> davecheney: I suggest a quick look at the watch_machine_states in the Python side
[01:38] <davecheney> will do
[01:38] <niemeyer> davecheney: If we reorder operations, we have the same problem on the opposite side
[01:39] <niemeyer> davecheney: (code reading the topology explodes due to lack of nodes)
[01:39] <davecheney> right
[01:39] <niemeyer> davecheney: Eventually, we may have to get smarted than that to scale up to more extreme levels
[01:39] <niemeyer> smarter
[01:40] <niemeyer> davecheney: But then we'll need to consider races, locks, expirations, etc
[01:40] <niemeyer> davecheney: The monotonic topology is a cheap way to get going for a long time without having to invest much on scenarios that re unrealistic in the near future
[01:41] <davecheney> i think i haven't explain myself properly
[01:41] <davecheney> i shouldn't have said the topology is inconsistent
[01:41] <davecheney> more that state.Machine() races with state.AddMachine()
[01:52] <niemeyer> davecheney: It doesn't
[01:52] <niemeyer> davecheney: At least not any more than the fact everything always races with everything
[01:53] <niemeyer> davecheney: Changing the topology is atomic.. AddMachine will add to the topology atomically, and state.Machine will read it atomically
[01:55] <niemeyer> davecheney: The watcher needs to observe the topology, though, not the nodes themselves
[01:59] <niemeyer> davecheney: Btw, when you "lbox submit", the latest changes in the branch are pushed to the codereview
[01:59] <niemeyer> davecheney: So, unless you want to have a last look online, the propose preceding it isn't necessary
[02:02] <niemeyer> davecheney: Ah, I think I've got the context for what you're talking about now, looking at your branch
[02:02] <niemeyer> davecheney: Sorry for the noise
[02:03] <davecheney> niemeyer: re lbox propose, yeah I do that so I have a diff of what is the final state
[02:03] <davecheney> it probably don't need to do that
[02:04] <niemeyer> davecheney: It doesn't bother me.. was just pointing out that submit does send the diff too
[02:04] <niemeyer> (since it's not obvious)
[02:04] <davecheney> niemeyer: when you say context, you're talking about the comment at the bottom of MachinesWatcher.toMachines
[02:04] <niemeyer> davecheney: yeah
[02:04] <niemeyer> davecheney: Was just prising the comments, coincidently
[02:05] <niemeyer> davecheney: You got a LGTM on it
[02:05] <davecheney> nice
[02:06] <davecheney> there is a similar problem with doing state.Machine('an id which was just deleted') but for more obvious reasons
[02:06] <niemeyer> davecheney: yeah
[02:15] <davecheney> niemeyer: thanks for the reviews
[02:15] <davecheney> I started to work on the provisioning agent proper yesterday
[02:15] <davecheney> so I shold have a wip branch this evening
[02:21] <niemeyer> davecheney: Woot
[02:21] <davecheney> i have a plan to model the current privider (environs.Environ) as a goroutine
[02:22] <davecheney> which should hide the fact that it can reload itself as the environment changes
[02:22] <davecheney> without having to require a lot of retry logic
[02:24] <niemeyer> davecheney: Btw, would you mind to work on a branch fixing WatchMachines?
[02:24] <davecheney> sure
[02:25] <davecheney> so, you would like WatchMachines to not return a *Machine unless it is properly visible in the topology ?
[02:26] <niemeyer> davecheney: WatchMachines should be a content watcher, not a child watcher
[02:26] <niemeyer> davecheney: and watch the topology
[02:27] <niemeyer> davecheney: Otherwise it will be notifying about machines before they are visible, which will create all kinds of bugs
[02:27] <niemeyer> davecheney: The Python logic already works like that for the same reason
[02:27] <davecheney> ok, understood
[03:20] <niemeyer> Aaand that's bad time!
[03:20] <niemeyer> I mean, good time!
[03:20] <niemeyer> Good time for bed! :)
[03:20] <niemeyer> Have a good night all
[03:20] <niemeyer> davecheney: And a good day to you, Dave
[03:45] <davecheney> night mate
[04:18] <hazmat> davecheney, x230s are around the corner
[04:18] <hazmat> always something i suppose
[06:17] <rogpeppe> davecheney: hiya
[06:27] <davecheney> hi rog
[06:28] <davecheney> hazmat: don't tell me that, i just dropped a gorilla on an x 220
[06:38] <rogpeppe> davecheney: hey, we coincide!
[06:39] <davecheney> shazam
[06:39] <davecheney> so, after redoing watchmachine, i have to redo it again :)
[06:39] <davecheney> oh well, at least I got two commits off my plate today
[06:39] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yeah, i saw that. bummer.
[06:39] <rogpeppe> davecheney: is it that it can't use the child watcher?
[06:40] <davecheney> no, not directly, although i'll probably end up implenting the same logic
[06:40] <davecheney> the problem witht eh child watcher is i observe new /machine keys arriving before they exist in the topology
[06:40] <davecheney> gustavo says i need to watch the topology insteam
[06:40] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i wonder if *anything* can legitimately use the child watcher
[06:40] <davecheney> rogpeppe: i'm starting to think not
[06:42] <davecheney> still, once we get the provisioning agent right, the machine and unit agents will probably be 95% the same
[06:42] <rogpeppe> davecheney: interesting. i'm sure the python version watches children somewhere. but maybe it's wrong.
[06:43] <rogpeppe> davecheney: machine agent is simple. the unit agent is a bit more complex as it needs the logic for determining which hook to run when (the core of juju in fact)
[06:43] <davecheney> no, it watches the topology,
[06:46] <rogpeppe> trunk/juju/state/relation.py:653
[06:47] <rogpeppe> trunk/juju/state/relation.py:839
[06:47] <rogpeppe> davecheney: so there is at least *one* place that watches children
[06:48] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i can't immediately work out if it's legit though
[06:48] <davecheney> will read in a sec
[06:52] <rogpeppe> davecheney: BTW after discussion with gustavo last night, i have an idea for simplifying the ConfigChecker part of EnvironProvider, and making it slightly more statically typed.
[06:53] <davecheney> rogpeppe: if you want to do a branch for that, i'll gladly review it
[06:54] <rogpeppe> davecheney: cool. it might only be 10 minute's work. i'll have a look now.
[06:55] <davecheney> rogpeppe: the part where you pass an untyped 'something' through the Checker and receive another opaque 'something' back which is specific to the Provider that checked it, doesn't make me feel wholesome
[06:56] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yeah. i don't mind the second part so much, but now that we mandate that the initial "something" is actually [string]interface{}, we should reflect that in the API.
[06:56] <davecheney> rogpeppe: +1
[06:57] <rogpeppe> davecheney: heh, maybe it should return a func() Environ, rather than an opaque "something"
[06:57] <rogpeppe> davecheney: then the state would be hidden behind a closure.
[06:59] <davecheney> rogpeppe: now that would be more appropriate for Go
[06:59] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i think so
[07:04] <rogpeppe> davecheney: how about something like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/991940/
[07:05] <davecheney> btw, state/machine.py ~ 103 sort of does what your child watcher does
[07:08] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yeah. i think when i did the child watcher i was misremembering that piece of code.
[07:09] <davecheney> well, it does do what your child does, ie it takes an old set, then waits for a new set, the produces a delta of machines added and machines left
[07:09] <rogpeppe> davecheney: BTW if you don't mention my IRC nick, i tend not to see your comments (it makes my machine beep...)
[07:10] <rogpeppe> davecheney: exactly. i think i'd misremembered the fact that it reads topology not children.
[07:10] <davecheney> rogpeppe: np, anyway, i hope the functionality exists inside the topology (haven't looked yet)
[07:11] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i don't think there's a similar watcher yet.
[07:11]  * davecheney fml
[07:12] <rogpeppe> fml?
[07:14] <davecheney> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FML&defid=5145198
[07:14] <rogpeppe> that bad, eh?
[07:17] <davecheney> no, not really
[07:24] <davecheney> rogpeppe: re http://paste.ubuntu.com/991940/
[07:24] <davecheney> rogpeppe: why produce a func that produces an Environ, why not produce the Environ directly ?
[07:25] <rogpeppe> davecheney: because we want to be able to check all the environments in environments.yaml for correctness without instantiating them all.
[07:25] <rogpeppe> davecheney: an environment is perfectly entitled to do some expensive operation when opened.
[07:25] <davecheney> fair enough
[07:26] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i'm liking the way it's looking so far
[07:26] <davecheney> rogpeppe: yup, fair point, in that case func(Environ, error) is really just an anonymous type for EnvironProviderHolder, or something
[07:26] <davecheney> but it gets the job done
[07:26] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yeah.
[07:27] <rogpeppe> it could return a Config type. type Config interface { Open() (Environ, error) }
[07:28] <rogpeppe> but i don't mind returning a simple function.
[07:28] <rogpeppe> although....
[07:28] <davecheney> i'd argue for the functional approach
[07:28] <rogpeppe> actually that might be nice. we've already got a config type in ec2 and elsewhere.
[07:28] <rogpeppe> and we'd just need to define an Open method on it.
[07:29] <rogpeppe> i could go either way
[07:29] <davecheney> rogpeppe: so, Check(config map) => Config; Config.Open() => Environ ?
[07:29] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yeah
[07:30] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i think i prefer that actually.
[07:31] <rogpeppe> s/Config/EnvironConfig/ i think
[07:33] <rogpeppe> davecheney: current state: http://paste.ubuntu.com/991957/
[07:34] <davecheney> rogpeppe: LGTM
[07:34] <davecheney> rogpeppe: how did your networking explorations go ?
[07:36] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i totally failed to set up a bpf filter (no idea why - couldn't see anything in the kernel code to indicate why i was getting EINVAL); but i've realised that i *think* i can just use the tun device and get the kernel to do all the filtering for me.
[07:36] <rogpeppe> davecheney: had fun on the plane writing a little translator to the bpf VM language. came across a really nice use of defer.
[07:37] <davecheney> rogpeppe: as a suggestion, if you're bringing up a tun device, then you can just use IP routing to do what you want
[07:37] <rogpeppe> davecheney: exactly.
[07:37] <davecheney> rogpeppe: bpf might get you max nerd cred, but IP routing is easier and better understood
[07:37] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i just have to work out how to use an etun device because you can't share a network interface across lxc instances
[07:38] <rogpeppe> davecheney: but that's probably easy to do through the lxc interface in fact.
[07:38] <davecheney> rogpeppe: yeah, lxc has a number of networking options; I would _think_ that we do _not_ want bridging (which is what it does out of the box)
[07:39] <rogpeppe> davecheney: yes.
[07:39] <davecheney> from experience with OpenVZ, on the host side, you get an interface called venet0, which you assign all the ip's of the containers you're running
[07:39] <davecheney> as long as you get the IP packets to the host, it will do the rest
[07:39] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i *think* that etun (a kind of interface "pipe") does what i'm after, but i haven't had great joy finding docs.
[07:40] <davecheney> essentially the OpenVZ guests are running ppp (think point to point, not ppp serial) links to the host
[07:40] <davecheney> so there is layer 3 routing involved
[07:40] <rogpeppe> davecheney: the most important thing is being able to read the IP packets generated by the guests from some central point.
[07:41] <rogpeppe> davecheney: and that the kernel knows enough to route between local guests.
[07:41] <davecheney> yeah, dunno if you can sniff on the host side of an LXC container
[07:41] <davecheney> the kernel will be able to route between the local LXC containers
[07:41] <davecheney> that sorta comes for free
[07:42] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i found this to be a useful intro: http://backreference.org/2010/03/26/tuntap-interface-tutorial/
[07:43] <davecheney> rogpeppe: thanks for the link
[07:43] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i got all that stuff working ok.
[07:43] <rogpeppe> davecheney: but i haven't put it together with lxc yet
[07:43] <davecheney> rogpeppe: ip (iproute2) is an amazing tool, and virtually completely without documentation, unless you've used cisco routers, then it's like second nature
[07:44] <rogpeppe> davecheney: it seems ok actually. the syntax isn't too shit.
[07:44] <davecheney> rogpeppe: i found it pretty unfriendly to exploration
[07:44] <rogpeppe> davecheney: it reminds me of the configuration language you use for talking to the plan 9 ip device
[07:44] <davecheney> althoguh i got pretty friendly with ip r s
[07:44] <rogpeppe> davecheney: it would be nice to have some decent docs though, it's true.
[07:45] <rogpeppe> ip r s?
[07:45] <davecheney> ip route show
[07:45] <rogpeppe> ah
[07:45] <davecheney> ip r a <IP_ADDRESS>/32 gw tun0
[07:45] <davecheney> was another favorite
[07:46] <rogpeppe> davecheney: using the ip command beats working out the right argument to pass to the right ioctls...
[07:47] <rogpeppe> davecheney: what's the difference between route add and addr add?
[07:47] <davecheney> rogpeppe: adding an address to an interface is an endpoint
[07:47] <davecheney> adding a route, establishes a possible flow between endpoints
[07:48] <rogpeppe> davecheney: ok. that makes sense.
[07:48] <rogpeppe> davecheney: in my case though, i'm using an endpoint as a route...
[07:49] <davecheney> rogpeppe: yeah, it gets murkey
[07:49] <davecheney> traditionally you'll say, ip r a 192.168/16 gw tun0
[07:49] <davecheney> sorry
[07:49] <davecheney> ip r a 192.168/16 gw <IP_ADDRESS>
[07:50] <davecheney> that is, send anything for 192.168/16 to <IP_ADDRESS>, it knows what to do
[07:50] <rogpeppe> davecheney: is 192.168/16 equiv to <IP_ADDRESS>/16 ?
[07:50] <davecheney> but there are more complex combinations, generally when the next hop is either not local to our network, or a point to point link
[07:50] <davecheney> yes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIDR_notation
[07:51] <davecheney> they are all shorthand
[07:52] <davecheney> anyway, i'd better get my self together to go out
[07:52] <davecheney> devops sydney starts in an hour
[07:52] <rogpeppe> davecheney: k
[07:52] <rogpeppe> davecheney: have fun
[07:52] <davecheney> wd
[07:54] <rogpeppe> davecheney: hmm, not obvious from that page that 192.168 is equivalent to <IP_ADDRESS>.
[07:55] <rogpeppe> davecheney: i've used 127.1 as an alias for <IP_ADDRESS> in the past, so it's not universal...
[09:30] <fwereade> heya rogpeppe
[09:30] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yo man!
[09:30] <rogpeppe> fwereade: thought you were off!
[09:31] <fwereade> rogpeppe, today's cold and dull :)
[09:31] <rogpeppe> fwereade: where r u?
[09:31] <fwereade> rogpeppe, my mum's house in gloucestershire
[09:32] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ah, cold and grey is par for the course currently...
[09:32] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I will almost certainly take a couple more off over the next week but I don't want to entirely cut myself off :)
[09:32] <rogpeppe> fwereade: cool.
[10:15] <fwereade> rogpeppe, btw, I really enjoyed lord valentine's castle
[10:15] <rogpeppe> fwereade: great, innit?!
[10:15] <rogpeppe> fwereade: there are sequels...
[10:15] <fwereade> rogpeppe, good old-fasjioned gripping yarn, nicely written, cool tech just peeking out of the background
[10:15] <rogpeppe> 'xactly
[10:15] <rogpeppe> i really liked that world
[10:16] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, I was thinking I'd have to look them up :)
[10:17] <fwereade> rogpeppe, also there's something quite nice about a world running on tech they don't understand that *doesn't* draw all its drama from the obvious "it's breaking down and nobody understands it" scenario
[10:17] <rogpeppe> fwereade: yeah. the tech is not central.
[10:21] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i also fondly imagine, though i haven't read it in a while, that it hasn't dated badly.
[10:21] <rogpeppe> fwereade: because of its lack of connection to the present day
[10:21] <rogpeppe> fwereade: did you ever read Helliconia Spring BTW?
[10:21] <fwereade> rogpeppe, perhaps ever such a gentle sepia tinge
[10:22] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but quite possibly that was just triggered off it being an old book, becaue I can't think of anything specific
[10:22] <fwereade> rogpeppe, nope
[10:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade: great series. Brian Aldiss.
[10:22]  * fwereade is *sure* he read some of his stuff but can't remember what
[10:23]  * rogpeppe hasn't read any of his stuff in ages, but read most of it years ago.
[10:24] <rogpeppe> fwereade: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Helliconia-Spring-Summer-Hellonica-MASTERWORKS/dp/0575086157/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337250194&sr=8-1
[10:24] <fwereade> rogpeppe, cool, that series has not led me wrong at any time I can recall
[10:25] <rogpeppe> fwereade: not sure i've read anything from that series actually
[10:25] <rogpeppe> fwereade: the original helliconia covers were definitely better.
[10:25] <rogpeppe> fwereade: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Helliconia-Spring-Brian-W-Aldiss/dp/0586053654/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1337250194&sr=8-4
[10:26] <rogpeppe> fwereade: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Helliconia-Summer-Panther-Books-Aldiss/dp/0586053662/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1337250194&sr=8-5
[10:26] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I haven't read all that many I guess but all the ones I've read have been good
[10:26] <rogpeppe> fwereade: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Helliconia-Winter-Brian-Aldiss/dp/0586053670/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1337250194&sr=8-6
[10:26] <rogpeppe> :-)
[10:26] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, those are much more interesting
[10:26] <rogpeppe> fwereade: they're also fairly close to the actual contents of the book, which is unusual
[10:28] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I still keenly remember the disappointment of my first don't-judge-etc moment ;)
[10:28] <rogpeppe> fwereade: :-)
[10:29] <rogpeppe> fwereade: the style isn't as accessible as Valentine's Castle. you can get a good idea from the Look Inside...
[10:31] <fwereade> rogpeppe, seems quite pleasing to me
[10:31] <fwereade> rogpeppe, I can imagine times I wouldn't be in the mood for it
[10:31] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it's definitely lingered in my mind.
[10:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: you might want to have a look at https://codereview.appspot.com/6145043/
[10:48] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it's got quite a bit of new stuff in after discussions with niemeyer
[10:49] <rogpeppe> fwereade: in particular, check out the Storage types in environs/interface.go
[11:16] <Aram> morning.
[11:21] <fwereade> rogpeppe, sorry I missed that, I'll take a look; morning Aram
[11:22] <rogpeppe> Aram: hey
[11:44] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i've uploaded a new version addressing niemeyer's comments.
[11:45] <fwereade> rogpeppe, just saw, thanks
[11:48] <fwereade> rogpeppe, and the storage stuff is indeed very pleasing, nice work
[11:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: cool. it's funny how a tiny niggle (ToolsPath in this case) can lead to a significant advance.
[12:02] <rogpeppe> fwereade: "This being an interface method says to me that it's done by definition ;)."
[12:02] <rogpeppe> fwereade: not quite sure what you mean there
[12:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade: "juju1.2.3-precise-i386.tgz" vs "juju-1.2.3-precise-i386.tgz" ?
[12:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade: which do you prefer?
[12:19] <fwereade> rogpeppe, sorry, it would appear I can't read and failed to notice it was commented out
[12:19]  * fwereade looks bashful and goes to eat lunch
[12:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade: np
[12:20] <Aram> rogpeppe: juju-1.2.3-precise-i386.tgz is better for awk.
[12:21] <rogpeppe> Aram: ok. good enough. that's what i have already.
[12:21] <rogpeppe> i just noticed i had also had the other variant in the past
[12:52]  * rogpeppe goes for lunch
[13:21] <niemeyer> Morning!
[13:21] <fwereade> heya niemeyer
[13:22] <niemeyer> fwereade: Heya, how're things going there?
[13:22] <niemeyer> fwereade: Still in the uk?
[13:22] <fwereade> niemeyer, not bad; cold and wet
[13:23] <fwereade> niemeyer, that should answer your followup too ;)
[13:23] <niemeyer> Haha :)
[13:23] <niemeyer> fwereade: Having fun with the family?
[13:23] <fwereade> niemeyer, yeah, it's lovely
[13:23] <niemeyer> fwereade: nice
[13:24] <fwereade> niemeyer, I think since I have the opportunity I will take tomorrow until tues as a proper holiday if that's ok with you
[13:24] <niemeyer> fwereade: Yeah, it's cool
[13:24] <fwereade> niemeyer, great, thanks :)
[13:26] <niemeyer> fwereade: no worries, good to enjoy the family every once in a while :)
[13:26] <fwereade> niemeyer, absolutely :)
[13:27] <fwereade> niemeyer, laura brought be a bunch of flowers today, it was awesome :)
[13:27] <niemeyer> fwereade: Hah, so sweet :)
[13:35] <andrewsmedina> Heya!
[13:35] <niemeyer> andrewsmedina: Morning!
[13:38] <andrewsmedina> niemeyer: morning!
[14:09] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: hiya!
[14:13] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Hey man
[14:13] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: How's tricks?
[14:13] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: great. am pleased with the last couple of branches. just working on upload-tools, to integrate the upstream stuff.
[14:13] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: sorry about the size of the last one
[14:14] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: lp doesn't make it easy to split a branch during review
[14:14] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: No worries, it was partly self-inflicted :)
[14:15] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm hoping you like the new Listen/Close thing in the dummy environ.
[14:15] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that's the only substantive change this time round, i think.
[14:15] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Why do we need it?
[14:15] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Can't we simply Reset a single time in the test?
[14:15] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: because we need to be able to signal to the dummy environ that no more changes are coming
[14:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: we need to Reset to listen; then we need to wait for any changes on the channel.
[14:16] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Ok, that may be done with a single Reset
[14:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: by closing it, we know there are no more to come.
[14:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: but we also want to be able introspect the state after the channel has been closed.
[14:16] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: so that we can tell that tools have been uploaded for example.
[14:17] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that was why i added the bool arg, but i think Listen/Close is cleaner.
[14:17] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I don't see why we need to do that afterwards.. but either way I like the sound of it too
[14:18] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: well, we can't do it before!
[14:19] <rogpeppe> pwd
[14:21] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: We only need to Reset once in a test.. you then have a channel of events to introspect
[14:21] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: You can use that single channel of events in all verifications
[14:21] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yes, but we need to introspect *after* all events have completed.
[14:22] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Not really
[14:22] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: There's no intrinsic reason why that would be the case
[14:22] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: we don't necessarily know what operations will be performed
[14:22] <Aram> what's a branch in this context, it seems to me the branches you're talking about are not VCS branches, right?
[14:22] <rogpeppe> Aram: VCS branches, yes
[14:22] <Aram> or is bzr different?
[14:22] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yes, we don't.. welcome to mocking
[14:22] <Aram> hmm.
[14:22] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: You're asserting that you know it..
[14:23] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i don't *think* so.
[14:23] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm asserting that i know at least one operation that will be performed. and that the files can be downloaded afterwards.
[14:23] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: if the channel isn't closed, then i'll have to time out on error, and i don't want to do that.
[14:24] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Huh.. you're asserting a sequence of operations, and closing the channel in a way that explodes if it doesn't work
[14:24] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Anything else done by the environment will cause the test to explode
[14:25] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: You might as well do that without resetting in the middle, for example
[14:25] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm asserting that the operation does a sequence of operations, yes. i don't think anything will explode if it doesn't work - unless the operation does operations aynchronously after it's returned.
[14:26] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I can't follow you.. "i'm asserting that the operation does" and "i don't think anything will explode if it doesn't work" are not compatible with each other
[14:26]  * rogpeppe goes to look at the code again
[14:27] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: what do you mean by "explode"?
[14:27] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: The test will explode
[14:27] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: nothing will panic, if that's what you mean
[14:27] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Fail
[14:27] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that's what i want to happen
[14:27] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: No.. I mean the test will fail
[14:27] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: isn't that the correct behaviour?
[14:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yes, and this correct behavior doesn't need Reset in the middle.
[14:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: It will fail if you don't reset in between things too.
[14:28] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: what happens if the operation does no actions?
[14:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yes, what happens?
[14:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Today?
[14:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: The same will happen
[14:28] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i wait for something to arrive on the channel, but nothing arrives.
[14:29] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yep.. same will happen if you don't reset
[14:29] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: no, that's why i have Close.
[14:29] <niemeyer> Sorry, I don't get it..
[14:29] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Reset, A, B, Reset, C, D
[14:29] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Why do you need the Reset in the middle?
[14:30] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Reset the dummy environment, and use a single channel from end to end..
[14:30] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: we need a Reset at the end of the test as well as at the beginning.
[14:30] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: That's not the question asked
[14:30] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: otherwise what happens when we're expecting to read D but it wasn't sent
[14:30] <rogpeppe> ?
[14:30] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Why do you need the Reset in the middle
[14:31] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: we don't. we have one Reset at each side of the tested operation (or, in the new way, a Reset at the start and a Close at the end)
[14:32] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Bingo.. we don't need a Reset in the middle, which means we don't need clear, or to change the interface of the dummy package.
[14:32] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: there is no Reset in the middle right now. there never has been.
[14:32] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: There is.. that's the only reason why you've introduced clear
[14:32] <niemeyer> or clean
[14:32] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: To reset the environment without actually resetting it
[14:33] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: If you only actually reset when the test starts or ends, the current interface suffices
[14:33] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: look at cmd_test.go:150
[14:33] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: what happens if the operation fails to send a bootstrap op?
[14:35] <niemeyer> Checking
[14:38] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Ok, that sounds fine.. so there is a reason
[14:38] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yes, i was trying to explain to you :-)
[14:39] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: sorry if my explanations were a bit shit
[14:40]  * rogpeppe is wondering how he could make the comments clearer
[14:53] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: You have a Reset in the middle of the test.. and it wasn't clear why. Denying that the Reset existed was one of the difficulties for me to understand what was going on, at least.
[14:54] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Either way, Listen+Close looks great
[14:55] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah, i was unclear sorry. i was confusing "test" and "operation"...
[14:55] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: cool. i think it works ok.
[15:16] <niemeyer> Lunch time.. back in a moment
[15:38] <fwereade> need to be away for a while; I'll pop back on later tonight
[15:40] <rogpeppe> fwereade: ok. see you tomorrow.
[15:58]  * niemeyer waves
[15:58] <niemeyer> robbiew: Do we have a call now?
[15:58] <robbiew> yes
[15:58] <robbiew> well...in 1.5min...but yes
[15:59] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm off a little earlier today. i'll see you tomorrow.
[15:59] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Cool, cheers, I'll try clean things up by the EOD tomorrow (hopefully!)
[15:59] <niemeyer> Erm, EOD today
[15:59] <niemeyer> robbiew: Cool, welcome back
[15:59] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: that would be great. it feels a little cluttered at the moment. i'm trying to avoid criss-cross merges...
[16:01] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Yeah, I've been making my way through it, but still a bit to go
[16:02] <robbiew> niemeyer: biobreak..then will send g+ link :)
[16:02] <robbiew> TMI
[16:03] <niemeyer> robbiew: Ok, I'll send the invite.. just join when you're back
[16:04] <niemeyer> robbiew: Sent
[16:09] <robbiew> niemeyer: on my way
[18:27] <niemeyer> I suspect this is the largest branch/review yet: https://codereview.appspot.com/6145043/
[18:27] <niemeyer> It's an awesome step forward, and it's also a great counter example for branch size :)
[19:19] <niemeyer> andrewsmedina: ping
[19:42] <niemeyer> andrewsmedina: pingous
[19:43] <niemeyer> andrewsmedina: Well, there's a ton of comments form Rog.. I'll put the branch as Work In Progress. Once you re-propose, it will show up in the active reviews again
[19:43] <niemeyer> andrewsmedina: If there's anything I can do in between, just ping me please
[20:50] <andrewsmedina> niemeyer: Im back
[20:51] <andrewsmedina> someone know why juju ssh use hostname instead ip?
[22:17] <SpamapS> niemeyer: any word on cs:precise/ubuntu ?
[22:17] <niemeyer> SpamapS: I've pinged Tom Haddon several times, without responses, and finally opened an rt ticket.. still waiting
[22:18] <niemeyer> SpamapS: devops ftw
[22:22] <SpamapS> niemeyer: RT is as agile as a bowling ball in a lake.
[22:52] <davecheney> niemeyer: https://codereview.appspot.com/6203083
[22:52] <davecheney> niemeyer: i can't figure out why all this other stuff has leaked into this branch
[22:59] <davecheney> niemeyer: i figured it out, the -req this branch was based on was not up to date
[23:06] <niemeyer> davecheney: Heya
[23:06] <davecheney> niemeyer: hey
[23:06] <niemeyer> davecheney: Ah, yeah, easiest is to push the previous branch
[23:06] <niemeyer> davecheney: and then propose again.. should clean it up
[23:06] <davecheney> niemeyer: is there a way to switch the -req (maybe by hacking the lbox data?)
[23:07] <davecheney> niemeyer: yeah, that worked for me
[23:33] <niemeyer> davecheney: No, it doesn't work, only if you push it again
[23:36] <davecheney> niemeyer: fair enough
[23:38] <davecheney> niemeyer: % jujud -v provisioning --zookeeper-servers <IP_ADDRESS>:2181
[23:38] <davecheney> 2012/05/18 09:37:54 JUJU state: opening state; zookeeper addresses: ["<IP_ADDRESS>:2181"]
[23:38] <davecheney> 2012/05/18 09:37:54 JUJU state: waiting for state to be initialized
[23:38] <davecheney> 2012/05/18 09:37:54 JUJU invalid environment configuration: key "kind"  was not present in the supplied configuration
[23:38] <davecheney> getting there
[23:38] <niemeyer> davecheney: Hah, neat!
[23:42] <davecheney> niemeyer: i look forward to the feedback from the team, but i'll keep working it this morning, and then move on to another pass at WatchMachines