[12:03] <Kamion> yeah, what mako said - I don't imagine it'll be a problem once we have a good account of what you've done, it's just a matter of laying that out for us
[12:03] <mako> anandaputra: cool.. email with me beforehand if you're unclear
[12:04] <mako> lmanul: alright
[12:04] <mako> lmanul: you're up
[12:04] <lmanul> :)
[12:05] <mako> lmanul: no need to repost
[12:05] <mako> lmanul: but give us MORE
[12:05] <anandaputra> ok.. thanks mako..
[12:05] <lmanul> I first started using Linux back in 1999 with a "Yellow dog" distro onto my iMac. Since then, I've been using Debian quite a lot, until I found out about Ubuntu in spring 2005, simply fell in love with it, and decided to let it replace Debian on my 3 boxes (incl a server). Ubuntu had reached the point where I could really advise my non-computer-aware friends to switch to Linux.
[12:05] <lmanul> I then began to really contribute when I participated in Google's "Summer of Code 2005", and I had so much fun hacking Ubuntu and GNOME with the help of seb128 that I never stopped :) So here I am, wanting to really be part of the community, and keep on hacking (especially on UI issues) to make Ubuntu even easier to use and even nicer to look at !
[12:05] <lmanul> Wiki page ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ManuCornet ) and launchpad ( https://launchpad.net/people/manu-cornet ) but they mostly link to http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/ where I described what I've been doing for Ubuntu.
[12:05] <lmanul> A few recommandations :
[12:05] <lmanul> http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/lmanul_ubuntu
[12:05] <lmanul> And I think vuntz /queried Kamion a little while ago to give some recommandation about me as well
[12:06] <mako> cool
[12:06] <mako> i know you
[12:06] <ogra> do we really need recommendations ?
[12:06] <lmanul> And huh, dholbach doesn't seem to be here :)
[12:06] <ogra> lmanul, brought us the new logout dialog
[12:06] <seb128> I think you have enough without him :p
[12:06] <earobinson> summer of code wow!
[12:06] <lmanul> ;-)
[12:06] <ogra> that speaks for itself :)
[12:06] <Kyral> umm, nuff said?
[12:06] <Kamion> 18:28 <vuntz> Manu has been helping enthusiastically in the past few months: he's implemented features, giving feedback, etc., and (this is most important) he has contributed to the "love" atmosphere of the
[12:06] <Kamion>               desktop team. And he's French. So I support his application :-)
[12:07] <Kyral> lol
[12:07] <ogra> oh, and dont forget the add to panel dialog ...
[12:07] <licio> :-)
[12:07] <seb128> "lmanul is a great contibutor for the desktop teams for some months now. He started with a bounty for the Google summer of code, working on the "add to panel" dialog for gnome-panel we ship at the moment and some change for gnome-menus/admin. He's responsive since on the bugs on the code he wrote, helps on bug triage, worked on a separator applet for gnome-applets (which is shipped upstream now), did the patch for the new gnome-session dialo
[12:07] <seb128> g and the icons for it, and is active on IRC and on the desktop list. I recommend it for ubuntu membership
[12:07] <seb128> "
[12:07] <mako> is being french an asset or a liability? <duck>
[12:07] <seb128> that's what I wrote, better and the URI :p
[12:07] <mako> it depends on if you're trying to sign a contract i guess ;)
[12:08] <earobinson> lol
[12:08] <mako> according to elmo, it's very complicating and somehow involves the marquis de sade
[12:08] <ogra> mako, you could always pretend to be a french speaking brazilian :)
[12:08] <seb128> beeing french make easier for you to read #ubuntu-desktop sometime :)
[12:08] <lmanul> haha
[12:08] <mako> seb128: i imagine :)
[12:08] <seb128> :p
[12:09] <Kamion> I'm impressed by all the desktop contributions and I'm particularly pleased to see people continuing to work on Ubuntu after the Summer of Code
[12:09] <mako> Kamion: amen :)
[12:09] <mako> lmanul: thrilled to have your contributions to date
[12:09] <mako> and looking forward to the future
[12:09] <mako> lots of good stuff
[12:09] <Kamion> me too if it wasn't clear
[12:09] <elmo> ack too
[12:09] <mako> lmanul: welcome :)
[12:10] <lmanul> Thanks a lot guys !
[12:10] <ogra> welcome lmanul
[12:10] <lmanul> ogra, I'll do my best :-p
[12:10] <seb128> lamont: congrats :)
[12:10] <raphink> welcome lmanul
[12:10] <ogra> *g*
[12:10] <seb128> ups
[12:10] <seb128> lmanul: congrats :)
[12:10] <ogra> lool
[12:10] <lmanul> Thanks everyone
[12:10] <licio> Congratulations lmanul
[12:11] <freeflying_> mako:  May I be the next
[12:11] <mako> freeflying_: you are next
[12:11] <freeflying_> I live in China PRC , my name is Hou ZhengPeng , a member of ubuntu-cn locoteam .I've worked on package for kubuntu ,  do my best for BetterCJKsupport and do some test about CJK also I have translated some docs about ubntu into chinese . My future plan focus on following two : 1 promote the using of ubuntu in chinese ,2 establish kubuuntu-zh website for chinese 3 continue BetterCJKSupport spec
[12:11] <freeflying_> My wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Freeflying
[12:12] <Riddell> freeflying_ has been doing great at telling me what to do to get CKJ support in kubuntu better
[12:12] <mako> freeflying_: i'd personally like to work with you on some of your input method work :)
[12:12] <ogra> mako, minghua is applying for membership today too :)
[12:13] <minghua> I read freeflying_'s (and other ubuntu-cn people's) work on ubuntu.org.cn
[12:13] <ogra> seems we finally have some people to solve input methds
[12:13] <mako> ogra: yes
[12:13] <minghua> they've done very well documentation work there, helping new users in the forums
[12:13] <Riddell> he's also packaged various CKJ fonts and skim input for kubuntu, so I'm all for his membership
[12:13] <mako> are the ubuntu-tw , ubuntu-cn and ubuntu-hk teams all collaborating on doc stuff?
[12:13] <mako> the wikipage seems to imply that
[12:14] <minghua> I also think freeflying_'s English skill is important for communication between Chinese users and the whole community
[12:14] <freeflying_> mako: y , we are working on that
[12:14] <mako> wow, that's great :)
[12:14] <\sh> on freeflying and minghua are doing a great job in teaching motus and main devs how to use input methods...they helped a lot to find some issues in qt3 and the immodule patch :)
[12:14] <mako> debian had some pretty famous political problems in this regard
[12:14] <Kamion> minghua: I guess we'll get to you in a moment, but are you in broad agreement with freeflying_ on the direction we need to take on input methods?
[12:14] <minghua> I also appreciate his BetterCJKSupport proposal, which attracted quite some people
[12:15] <mako> i think this is one of the major areas that ubuntu needs to focus energy in the next year or two
[12:15] <minghua> Kamion: that depends on what he want to do with input method packages
[12:15] <mako> minghua: i'd like to have them connected to language packs
[12:16] <minghua> I've not talked with freeflying_ much on input method issue, and I don't really know his plan
[12:16] <mako> and have necessary configuration happen automagically
[12:16] <minghua> mako: we can get to it when it's my turn :-)
[12:16] <mako> cool
[12:16] <mako> freeflying_: how long have you been involved?
[12:16] <mako> ogra: how long have you seen freeflying_'s contributions?
[12:17] <mako> because the wikpage shows great work but seems a little thin IMHO
[12:17] <freeflying_> mako: 5/2005
[12:17] <Riddell> he's been around for a good while
[12:17] <mako> the magic month
[12:17] <ogra> mako, i'm not deep into KDE stuff, but since quite some time
[12:17] <minghua> freeflying_: I am interested in mako's question about cn, tw, hk's collaboration as well
[12:17] <freeflying_> minghua: we may talk about that sonner after
[12:17] <Riddell> and is on #kubuntu-devel daily
[12:17] <mako> *some* amount of collaboration is going to be necessary in that we all work together at a common place
[12:17] <freeflying_> s/sonner/sooner
[12:17] <mako> but if we can have more direct collaboration on obviously related problems, that's *awesome*
[12:18] <ogra> mako++
[12:18] <minghua> mako: the BetterCJKSupport proposal work is done by all CJK people
[12:18] <mako> great
[12:18] <mako> ok..
[12:18] <mako> lets get back to freeflying_'s application
[12:18] <mako> since it's been over 2 hours now
[12:18] <Kyral> yes...please...
[12:18] <minghua> but on the documentation side what I've seen is completed separated work
[12:18] <Kyral> Kyral....hungry....
[12:19] <mako> Riddell, ogra: would you be ok with membership or prefer to wait a meeting or two
[12:19] <Riddell> mako: he's been around long enough and has consistenly been helping with CJK, I'm all in support of his membership
[12:20] <mako> alright..
[12:20] <Riddell> and tests dapper frequently for CJK and other issues
[12:20] <mako> freeflying_: are you involved in an loco team?
[12:20] <freeflying_> mako:  sure ubuntu-cn
[12:21] <mako> nice webpage :)
[12:21] <freeflying_> mako: thx
[12:22] <Kamion> I'm fine with freeflying_ for membership based on testimonials
[12:22] <elmo> me too
[12:22] <mako> freeflying_: i'm happy to have you on board
[12:22] <mako> alright
[12:23] <mako> freeflying_: welcome!
[12:23] <minghua> congratulations freeflying_
[12:23] <mako> last up to bat
[12:23] <freeflying_> mako: thx
[12:23] <minghua> my turn?
[12:23] <freeflying_> thx all
[12:23] <\sh> freeflying_: welcome on board :)
[12:23] <licio> welcome freeflying_ :-D
[12:23] <ogra> congrats freeflying_
[12:23] <minghua> Okay.  My name is Ming Hua.  wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MingHua  launchpad profile: https://launchpad.net/people/minghua
[12:23] <freeflying_> \sh licio  ogra :thx
[12:24] <minghua> I am a Chinese coming from mainland China.  Currently I am a Ph.D. student on materials science, in Rice University, Houston, USA.
[12:24] <minghua> My main contribution so far has been: 1. testing and reporting bugs; 2. helping MOTUs with transitions and merges; 3. taking care of the SCIM related packages (I am the Debian maintainer of some of them).
[12:24] <minghua> My future plan would be: 1. maintaining and improving SCIM related packages, as input methods seem to be a popular request from users and Ubuntu seems to be lacking people that work on this; 2. help MOTU science team, especially on collaborating with Debian.
[12:24] <Kamion> minghua's been around for a long time - I remember your name from a conversation about translations late in the hoary cycle I think
[12:24] <minghua> I would also like to mention that I am heavily involved in the i18n/l10n work in Debian, which I think Ubuntu will also benefit from.
[12:24] <Kyral> I was surprised that he wasn't a Member
[12:24] <Kamion> or was it warty, one of those
[12:24] <minghua> Kamion: yes, that's probably my first Ubuntu bug :-)
[12:25] <minghua> mako: back to the input method issue you mentioned:  I would love to see input method support integrated into lang-pack too
[12:25] <\sh> minghua is quite active in the MOTU area and also one of hell bug squasher
[12:25] <minghua> but I am not really a programmer, so I definitely need help on that
[12:26] <ogra> elmo just synced his scim package from debian :)
[12:26] <minghua> however as I've indicated on my wiki page, input method support is my first priority in both Debian and Ubunut
[12:26] <freeflying_> minghua has contributed much oto scim
[12:26] <mako> minghua: we're gonna do it
[12:26] <Kamion> as with freeflying_ I'm happy to have more people who actually know about input methods, and particularly getting the Debian scim maintainer on-board is clearly the right thing to do
[12:26] <mako> minghua: if we can get people from 4 other languages represented.. we can do this
[12:26] <minghua> and I would definitely pursue automatical IM support in dapper+1 if we don't have enough time for dapper
[12:26] <mako> minghua: we'll do it
[12:27] <Kamion> and I approve of the detailed wiki page :)
[12:27] <Kyral> okay I'm off. I support minghua :P
[12:27] <Kamion> so minghua++ as far as I'm concerned
[12:27] <minghua> thanks Kyral :-)
[12:27] <mako> minghua: i don't think we have time to test it honestly for dapper.. because the changes are pretty invasive
[12:27] <earobinson> bye Kyral
[12:27] <mako> minghua: we should *start* planning for dapper+1
[12:27] <LaserJock> minghua is helping me (and MOTU Science in general) with his knowledge of Debian and desire for collaboration
[12:27] <elmo> ack from me too
[12:27] <mako> minghua: we should meet up sometime this week to strategize
[12:27] <minghua> mako: yes that's my concern too, especially dapper will be supported for 3 years
[12:27] <mako> minghua: awesome :)
[12:28] <minghua> mako: and scim upstream now essetianlly don't support old release branches :-(
[12:28] <earobinson> can I ask what " automatical IM support" is going to be?
[12:28] <minghua> mako: that would be wonderful (having some help from others)
[12:29] <Kamion> I believe I've approved everyone from this meeting in Launchpad; let me know if I've missed anyone
[12:29] <mako> Kamion: you rock
[12:29] <mako> awesome
[12:29] <mako> so i think that's it
[12:29] <minghua> earobinson: my vision is that you choose CJK (chinese, japanese, korean) as the language in install, input method (hopefully scim :-) packages will be automatically installed, and when you boot into you new gnome/kde desktop, you can use IM immediately
[12:29] <mako> i approve of minghua, if that wasn't clear
[12:29] <Kamion> yep, any other business before we close?
[12:29] <mako> minghua: YES
[12:29] <\sh> minghua: congrats :)
[12:29] <mako> minghua: BROTHER
[12:29] <minghua> that still requries a lot of work, though
[12:30] <Kamion> please say no, my wife would like to actually see me tonight :)
[12:30] <minghua> thanks, mako,
[12:30] <mako> minghua: this has been my #1 goal for ubuntu since almost day one :)
[12:30] <mako> ok ok ok
[12:30] <minghua> thanks d ogra
[12:30] <mako> i think that means the MEETING IS OVER
[12:30] <mako> Kamion: quickly run away :)
[12:30] <mako> thanks everyone who was here at weird times
[12:30] <minghua> thanks for the CC members too
[12:30] <ogra> Kamion, only 30min and its early morning already, hurry up :)
[12:31] <mako> lets do it like 10 hours earlier next time
[12:31] <minghua> for such a long meeting
[12:31] <nealmcb> fascinating - thanks folks!
[12:31] <mako> next meeting at UTC12
[12:31] <mako> two weeks from today
[12:31] <mako> ?
[12:31] <mako> sounds sane
[12:31] <Kamion> works for me
[12:31] <mako> cool
[12:31] <freeflying_> minghua: would you mind have a talk about scim with me when you have time
[12:32] <elmo> me too
[12:32] <minghua> freeflying_: I have time right now
[12:32] <minghua> if it's not too early for you ;-)
[12:32] <seb128> elmo: could you install gnome-menus Build-Depends on the breezy amd64 chroot?
[12:32] <elmo> (mark will still be on tour tho, and likely unable to attend)
[12:32] <elmo> seb128: RT it?  I'll do it before I go to bed
[12:33] <earobinson111> sorry got DCed <earobinson> can I ask what " automatical IM support" is going to be?
[12:33] <seb128> elmo: right, doing that now, thank you
[12:33] <mako> Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Jan 12:00 UTC:  Edubuntu | 26 Jan 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status |  27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting | 31 Jan  20:00 UTC:  Technical Board | 7 February 12:00 UTC: Community Council
[12:33] <freeflying_> minghua: anyway I'd have my breakfast firstly
[12:33] <mako> thanks everyone for showing up!
[12:33] <elmo> ok, I'm out.  night all, thanks everuone
[12:33] <mako> g'night
[12:33] <manicka> ciao all
[12:33] <mako> i have another irc meeting to be in
[12:33] <mako> for the GPLv3
[12:33] <mako> bah
[12:33] <azeem> yay meetings
[12:34] <FLeiXiuS> mako: goodluck, I love v3 so far.
[02:29] <Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas: ping
[06:51] <FLeiXiuS> I'm currently upgrading my Gateway, I'l be back after ipcop decides to play nice!  :-)
[01:00] <licio> Seveas, ping
[01:00] <JaneW> hello
[01:00] <jelkner> good morning!
[01:00] <juliux> hi all
[01:00] <JaneW> hi jelkner
[01:01] <jelkner> JaneW: hi jane, did you get my email?
[01:01] <JaneW> jelkner: you are up first today :)
[01:01] <jelkner> cool!
[01:01] <JaneW> let's just give it 2 mins
[01:01] <jelkner> ok
[01:02] <juliux> hi mhz
[01:02] <mhz> hi juliux
[01:02] <JaneW> Q: Who is the target audience for the Edubuntu Cookbook? Hosted by jelkner - 5-10 mins
[01:02] <flint_> good morning edubuntu'ers
[01:02] <JaneW> flint_: wanna do minutes?
[01:02] <kjcole> Hi all.
[01:02] <JaneW> hi kjcole
[01:03] <JaneW> hi juliux
[01:03] <JaneW> hi mhz
[01:03] <kjcole> jelkner, outlines at http://docbox.flint.com/~kjcole/outlines.html
[01:03] <mhz> hi JaneW
[01:03] <flint_> JaneW, we need to talk this offline.  is matt around?
[01:03] <mhz> flint_: hi edubuntero
[01:03] <JaneW> flint_: I think he is yes
[01:04] <JaneW> ok is ogra around?
[01:04] <ogra> yup
[01:04] <JaneW> highvoltage: ping
[01:04] <JaneW> hi ogra
[01:04] <JaneW> who else do we need?
[01:04] <ogra> i dont have to telly you much this week ...
[01:04] <JaneW> mhz: I do know that :)
[01:04] <mhz> heheh, it was for minutes purposes
[01:04] <JaneW> ogra: is that good or bad?
[01:04] <JaneW> ogra: do we have flight 3 testers?
[01:04] <ogra> good for ubuntu, bad for edubuntu :)
[01:05] <JaneW> :((
[01:05] <JaneW> ok lets not get into that yet
[01:05] <ogra> i have done mostly ubuntu UVF work last week
[01:05] <JaneW> are we ready to start?
[01:05] <jelkner> tell me when
[01:05] <flint_> Mauritzo, I like it ... edubuntero indeed!
[01:05] <JaneW> I have promised that jelkner can go first, since he has limited time...
[01:05] <JaneW> jelkner: hit it
[01:06] <jelkner> Ok, the question we need to resolve is: "Who is the target audience for the cookbook?"
[01:06] <JaneW> I would say the peron who sets up the lab
[01:06] <highvoltage> JaneW: pong, i am just about to go into another meeting though :/
[01:06] <jelkner> the answer to that question will determine which way we go forward
[01:06] <JaneW> so either a teacher or beginner techie
[01:06] <JaneW> highvoltage: ok, can we have a web update next week?
[01:06] <highvoltage> JaneW: yep
[01:07] <jelkner> JaneW: that was my orignial assumption
[01:07] <JaneW> highvoltage: can you respond to question above?
[01:07] <JaneW> "Who is the target audience for the cookbook?"
[01:07] <flint_> Morning Johnathan...
[01:07] <JaneW> I don;t think it's the kids necessarily, although they may read it too
[01:07] <JaneW> ogra?
[01:07] <jelkner> Keep in mind there are direct implications to how we work depending on what we are aiming at.
[01:07] <ogra> JaneW, ?
[01:08] <jelkner> and we don't want to aim at "everyone"
[01:08] <highvoltage> hi flihnt
[01:08] <JaneW> ogra: looking for an opinion on "Who is the target audience for the cookbook?"
[01:08] <jelkner> makes the book not that usable by anyone
[01:08] <ogra> yes, i wonder why  :)
[01:08] <highvoltage> JaneW: i think the answer to that is, from a technical pov, it should be doable by teachers without any help
[01:08] <JaneW> the book is about how to set up a lab ,right?
[01:08] <highvoltage> but organisations who would like to replicate should be able to use it
[01:08] <ogra> the atrget should be the admin who sets up the lab in first line
[01:08] <highvoltage> got to run, i'm being called!
[01:08] <JaneW> highvoltage: so you agree with my 'either a teacher or beginner techie'
[01:08] <JaneW> bye
[01:09] <flint_> highvoltage, I promise by next meeting I ill learn how to spell...
[01:09] <ogra> but the content should make it possible to use the cookbook in a class as well to explain ltsp and edubuntu
[01:09] <JaneW> jelkner/ kjcole : think that's possible?^
[01:09] <jelkner> ogra: what do you mean by "use the cookbook in a class"?
[01:09] <kjcole> JaneW: How to set up and use (as in ok, now I've got a lab... how do I use it to teach... Moodle, etc)... maybe.
[01:09] <lucasvo> I don't know in which class one is supposed to learn something about edubuntu
[01:10] <JaneW> jelkner: he is saying it can also be used to teach 'what is linux' 'what is FOSS'
[01:10] <ogra> jelkner, as teaching material ..
[01:10] <jelkner> hmm..
[01:10] <ogra> JaneW, nope, not in this wide range
[01:10] <ogra> only what is ltsp, what is edubuntu
[01:10] <JaneW> jelkner: got a URL for the cookbook so we can see what's in it now?
[01:10] <ogra> there are enough good docs explaining FOSS out there :)
[01:11] <lucasvo> I think there should be a general part and a part with a step by step explanation(something like: do this: sudo do this: rm -rf / do this ....)
[01:11] <jelkner> there can never be enough! ;-)
[01:12] <lucasvo> so at the beginning of every chapter for e.g. Installation of Network hardware, there should be a theoretical part explaining TCP/IP, netmask and that kind of stuff
[01:12] <jelkner> Can I take a few minutes to explain what prompted this discussion?
[01:12] <JaneW> we need the url, so ppl like lucasvo can see it
[01:12] <Seveas> licio, pong
[01:12] <JaneW> jelkner: YES please do
[01:13] <jelkner> OK, we started with the TuxLab Cookbook
[01:13] <lucasvo> we need a "server" for bzr, so people can checkout and merge
[01:13] <jelkner> which is very much like the book most of you are describing
[01:13] <JaneW> ogra: you got a server for us? ;)
[01:13] <flint_> lucasd, got one.  docboc.flint.com
[01:13] <JaneW> jelkner: yes, cos that's what we have seen ;)
[01:13] <flint_> corrction docbox.flint.com
[01:13] <jelkner> Ou original plan was to keep to that text as much a possible
[01:13] <jelkner> and to modify for Edubuntu
[01:14] <ogra> JaneW, if i can store the hwdb on your home PC you can have some space on my server :P
[01:14] <JaneW> jelkner: right, and has that changed?
[01:14] <jelkner> If we pursue this path, we will need help from ogra and others who actually built the system, to make sure we get it right
[01:14] <JaneW> sure we'll need some technical reviewing
[01:15] <ogra> jelkner, i'm a bit overloaded until after the sprint (feature freeze) after this i'll have some more time to care for docs etc ...
[01:15] <jelkner> in Kevin's discussion with ogra, he seemed to suggest that we won't need alot of the detail we were asking him for
[01:16] <flint_> ogra, ollie, do not lie to the nice tech writer, you are a programmer.  Documentation is your sworn enemy :^)
[01:16] <jelkner> and we didn't want to be a pain and keep bothering him, but while we can right, we don't know the details
[01:16] <jelkner> also there is the question of others wanting to participate more
[01:16] <JaneW> jelkner: right and is it very different to the current text?
[01:17] <jelkner> that got us thinking about a very different kind of cookbook
[01:17] <mhz> lucasvo: in an edubutu training class
[01:17] <ogra> i just led a new user through ltsp installation last night, i could advise him with two lines to get it working ... there are not much details you need to know ...
[01:17] <jelkner> one aimed not at technical folks, but at end users
[01:17] <JaneW> jsgotangco and mhz have become fairly involved they may be able to help with the tech writing
[01:17] <ogra> but the end users are technical folks in our case
[01:17] <jelkner> not true
[01:17] <ogra> i.e. school admins, teachers that care for the server
[01:18] <jelkner> at least in our area, most of the "users" aren't technical people at all
[01:18] <Treenaks> ogra: more technical than 'the general public', but still not sysadmin gods
[01:18] <ogra> i didnt say sysadmin gods ;)
[01:18] <JaneW> yes I also think that even 'technical' types my be only familiar with MS stuff
[01:18] <ogra> that should be enough
[01:19] <jelkner> the big question is around installation
[01:19] <jelkner> the TuxLab book is mostly about setting up a lab
[01:19] <jelkner> and *much* less about using it
[01:19] <kjcole> The original cookbook went into great detail about the stages of booting ("... then tftp bla-bla-bla...")   Who was that intended for?
[01:19] <jelkner> Edubuntu is different in two ways:
[01:19] <jelkner> 1. It is much easier to setup
[01:20] <jelkner> 2. The applications is comes with are much more standard
[01:20] <JaneW> jelkner: know what, I am happy for you to create it in the way that you think it;s required, my reason for this is 3 fold.
[01:20] <JaneW> 1) Your are doing the work
[01:20] <JaneW> 2) You are an educator and are closest to the type of traget audience we are looking at
[01:20] <JaneW> 3) We have limited time to get it done and out there
[01:21] <kjcole> jelkner 3. No grants, standard equipment, etc.
[01:21] <jelkner> 4) This is not the only book, only one of many
[01:21] <JaneW> we can always amend it again, if we decide it needs to change for Dapper +1 for whatever reason
[01:21] <jelkner> so if it fills some good need and we can get it done, we are ahead
[01:21] <JaneW> is there agreement of my sledgehammer non-democratc approach?
[01:21] <mhz> ;)
[01:22] <ogra> JaneW, yes
[01:22] <lucasvo1> JaneW: what is so non-democratic?
[01:22] <flint_> so the audience is teachers...
[01:22] <jelkner> ok, in that case, we have a plan that will involve much less work from the technical folks and much more opportuniy for community participation
[01:22] <mhz> imho, audience = any person in a school taking care of a lab
[01:22] <lucasvo1> I would say the audiense are teachers with a little aim to get to know something about the techniques used in school
[01:22] <JaneW> flint_: no the auduence is whoever is going to set the lab up, which is likely educators in a lot of cases
[01:22] <jelkner> we are going to have a real cookbook, complete with lots of recipies
[01:23] <mhz> (computing lab)
[01:23] <flint_> ok educator not teacher...
[01:23] <JaneW> lucasvo: I guess it wasn't that undemocratic, just manipulative ;)
[01:23] <jelkner> kevin and flint have taken a stab at an outline already
[01:23] <lucasvo1> I would say NO education
[01:23] <lucasvo1> why shouldn't one use it at home?
[01:23] <JaneW> mhz: agreed
[01:23] <jelkner> so if anyone wants to participate, we can invite them to submit a recipie
[01:24] <JaneW> jelkner: nice idea
[01:24] <mhz> wiki:EdubuntuRecipies :D
[01:24] <flint_> lucasvol, educator rather than education,
[01:24] <lucasvo1> I would say: any person who is aimed to learn a at least llittlebit about techniques used and has a goal to set up a lab
[01:24] <lucasvo1> flint_: yes exactly
[01:24] <jelkner> mhz: great
[01:24] <JaneW> jelkner: we can also have community contributed hints and tips and 'favourite recipes' etc ;)
[01:24] <mhz> oooh, that was a thought
[01:25] <jelkner> JaneW
[01:25] <jelkner> JaneW: yes!
[01:25] <kjcole> Before we decided to strip down the original, I tossed around an outline idea or three with flint (partially as a practical matter, partially to learn bzr)  Those are at: http://docbox.flint.com/~kjcole/outlines.html
[01:25] <jelkner> ok, we will have an update in 2 weeks
[01:25] <jelkner> can we be early on the agenda for then?
[01:25] <JaneW> great, thanks guys :)
[01:25] <JaneW> sure
[01:25] <flint_>  "Who is the target audience for the cookbook?"
[01:25] <flint_> Two ways this question can be answered. The two ways are...
[01:25] <flint_> 1. "focus Elkner-san" apporoach ..this is a target rich environment.  pick one and nail it.
[01:25] <flint_> 2. "big tent many Clowns"  develop a framework and fill as fast as possible.
[01:25] <JaneW> next week ogra and I are at the distrosprint, and may not make the meeting...
[01:26] <JaneW> depends how full our schedule is there...
[01:26] <ogra> i'd like to make it, but leats see
[01:26] <mhz> JaneW: jelkner: and we could even have EdubuntuStudyContent (fr whatever LMS we package)
[01:26] <JaneW> if there is going to be NO meeting I'll let you know by the end of Tuesday.
[01:26] <jelkner> mhz: yes, but that will take longer
[01:27] <kjcole> flint_ Big KITCHEN, many COOKS (spoil the... never mind)
[01:27] <JaneW> thanks jelkner and kjcole
[01:27] <jelkner> ok, i've got to go, thanks everyone!
[01:27] <mhz> jelkner: sure, but I am already listing some contents for a couple of 'pilot' training courses on Edubuntu for Teachers :D
[01:27] <JaneW> have a good day
[01:27] <jelkner> bye
[01:27] <flint_> later jeff...
[01:27] <lucasvo1> bye jelkner
[01:27] <ogra> ciao jelkner
[01:27] <JaneW> I ma happy that jelkner and kjcole have swing votes wrt the cook book to ensure that it has direction
[01:27] <mhz> bye jelkner
[01:28] <JaneW> ok, on the tech news
[01:28] <flint_> kjcole, I do like the cookbook motif...
[01:28] <JaneW> ogra: you been pulled into ubuntu work this week?
[01:28] <ogra> sure
[01:29] <ogra> we had UVF, so i had to finish merges etc
[01:29] <ogra> additionally i was 3 days at the eurolinux conference
[01:29] <ogra> so not much edubuntu development this week
[01:29] <JaneW> are all merges done now?
[01:29] <flint_> neat, how was eurolunux...
[01:29] <ogra> sure
[01:29] <JaneW> ok so where are we at?
[01:29] <JaneW> Edubuntu Flight 3 released
[01:29] <ogra> flint_, a bit diasappointing
[01:29] <JaneW> how's it looking?
[01:30] <flint_> ogra, sorry.
[01:30] <ogra> JaneW, yes, we are at flight 3
[01:30] <JaneW> and how much more ids there to do?
[01:30] <ogra> flight 4 will have gobby included
[01:30] <JaneW> ogra: did you see silbs' response re the artwork?
[01:30] <JaneW> great, is there a date for flight 4 yet?
[01:30] <ogra> i only have to finish my goals, am waiting for a initramfs patch that infinity wants to make and a patch to gdm seb128 needs to review
[01:31] <ogra> i guess flight4 might be past the sprint
[01:31] <ogra> i doubt Kamion wants to do only CD work during the sprint
[01:34] <JaneW> ogra: no I expect it will be week after next
[01:34] <JaneW> when is the next freeze date?
[01:34] <ogra> one week after the sprint iirc
[01:34] <JaneW> Feb 23
[01:34] <kjcole> ogra: I forget: Is sobby mature enough to go along with gobby?
[01:34] <JaneW> Feature Freeze
[01:35] <JaneW> wtf is sobby?
[01:35] <ogra> kjcole, sobby is in universe :/
[01:35] <JaneW> ogra battled to get gobby in, pitti was initially not happy with it.
[01:35] <ogra> its not really matureds
[01:35] <kjcole> JaneW a stand-alone server for gobby
[01:35] <JaneW> kjcole: oic
[01:35] <ogra> JaneW, sobby is cool, but had only its first release ...
[01:36] <ogra> its a bit young yet
[01:36] <JaneW> ogra: re artwork
[01:36] <ogra> yup
[01:36] <flint_> kjcole, you got sobby running eh?
[01:36] <mhz> ogra: will an LMS be included ready to use ?
[01:36] <JaneW> if we only get one set of prof work can we use that for the default install?
[01:36] <ogra> i would like to propose to go with mid age rather than young age as default
[01:36] <JaneW> ogra: we will then need to use community work for other optional looks
[01:36] <ogra> but yes, we can ...
[01:36] <JaneW> ogra: ok, does everyone agree with that?
[01:37] <kjcole> flint_ tried it out ONCE and it worked okay for the few minutes of testing...
[01:37] <JaneW> go for a default install aimed at 10-16 year olds
[01:37] <JaneW> instead of the younger crowd
[01:37] <JaneW> ?
[01:37] <mhz> JaneW: i do
[01:37] <ogra> kjcole, look at it with 20 ppl logged in ...
[01:37] <JaneW> the 3rd option will just be very plain, so shouldn;t take much
[01:37] <ogra> JaneW, yup
[01:37] <flint_> JaneW, the skin of this has always been your call.
[01:38] <ogra> i'd like to be able to use something from the community for the young ones ...
[01:38] <kjcole> ogra: +1 re: mid-range
[01:38] <ogra> having a bit freedom there would be nicer
[01:38] <flint_> ogra, what about a menu choice of skin in flight 4?
[01:38] <JaneW> flint_: not really, in the first release I was applying the decisions from the summit, with a good dose of personal preference admittedly ;)
[01:38] <JaneW> ok then we need to doc this change
[01:38] <ogra> flint_, already there through dpkg-reconfigure
[01:39] <JaneW> we have it published that the default is the younger skin
[01:39] <ogra> flint_, i'm just missing skins :)
[01:39] <flint_> JaneW, If you do not continue to lead the art aspect, we will have nothing to annoy you about... :^)
[01:39] <ogra> so all you select looks the same
[01:39] <JaneW> :P
[01:39] <JaneW> ogra: so the splash screens will all be the same right>
[01:39] <JaneW> ?
[01:39] <mhz> JaneW: so, default = 10 -> 16 y.o ?
[01:39] <JaneW> just wall papper and fonts and icons will vary?
[01:40] <JaneW> mhz: it seems so yes.
[01:40] <ogra> JaneW, we can still decide that later in case we get some community contributions
[01:40] <ogra> artwork freeze is far in the future
[01:40] <JaneW> ogra: will management agree? I don;t want a ton of bricks dropped on me again ;)
[01:40] <ogra> (UI freeze)
[01:40] <JaneW> ogra: I will need to rally for them
[01:40] <ogra> we have still time to discuss that
[01:41] <mhz> JaneW: and slib willprovide what?
[01:41] <ogra> i'll answer the artwork thread today
[01:41] <JaneW> silbs will proved one set of art work, not 3
[01:41] <mhz> ooops, rephrase, and what would slib provide then?
[01:41] <JaneW> so it;s up to us to arrnage the rest
[01:41] <ogra> the default artwork
[01:41] <JaneW> and the prof work will be used for the default install
[01:41] <kjcole> (I think I can speak for jelkner as a +1 on artwork scaled to an older audience as well. Not that as a high school teacher he has a bias or anything... ;-))
[01:41] <mhz> yeah but wich age? or you mean 10 to 16 year olds
[01:41] <mhz> ?
[01:42] <flint_> JaneW, since when are you so worried about management?  ticking off mdz is a shared pleasure.
[01:42] <JaneW> flint_: yeah but I
[01:42] <JaneW> 'll be seeing him next week, so I'm scared ;)
[01:42] <ogra> flint_, but you never gain what you want ...
[01:43] <ogra> flint_, so its just a waste of energy :)
[01:43] <ogra> (ticking off mdz i mean)
[01:43] <flint_> ogra, na, you need to take this in a life-context, all I really enjoy is making matt think!
[01:43] <ogra> flint_, at 4am in the morning ?
[01:44] <flint_> ogra, 04:30 and he was awake...
[01:44] <ogra> i woulddnt expect anyone to *think* at this time
[01:44] <flint_> you do not know matt.  he was using that as a pretext.
[01:44] <JaneW> ok what else is on the agenda?
[01:44] <mhz> JaneW: so, slib will provide 10 -16 ?
[01:45] <flint_> anyway, the art thing is a good idea.
[01:45] <JaneW> mhz: I need to follow up with her again
[01:45] <ogra> me too
[01:45] <mhz> ooh, okis
[01:45] <JaneW> mhz: I previously communicated that 6-10 would be the default install
[01:45] <mhz> hehehe
[01:45] <ogra> i'm still lagging behind with mail
[01:45] <flint_> JaneW, who or what is slib?
[01:45] <JaneW> mhz: we decided to change that today
[01:45] <JaneW> mhz: so we need to document and communicate that.
[01:45] <ogra> i think we grew up a bit and the artwork should reflect that :)
[01:46] <JaneW> ogra: ok
[01:46] <JaneW> ogra: and gartoon?
[01:46] <ogra> for 0-6
[01:46] <JaneW> ogra: the rest of the look and feel?
[01:46] <mhz> ogra: i totally agree
[01:46] <ogra> a community wallpaper for 0-6 is easy to grab from a.u.c
[01:46] <ogra> i'm uncertain about 10-X
[01:47] <JaneW> ok, I'll mail the powers that be, I'd like to see the font and icon choices etc to see the new look
[01:47] <mhz> JaneW: ogra: my art boys have not given priority to edubunut artwork because they noticed default won't be ours, so they want on vacation until nextweek ,afaik :(
[01:47] <ogra> i think font is up to us ... and for the older ages we should just go with the default icons ...
[01:48] <JaneW> mhz: :( understandable...
[01:48] <mhz> JaneW: understandable but I dont like it
[01:48] <JaneW> ppl like the current font and icons in my experience btw...
[01:49] <ogra> so lets probably keep the icons and font for 6-10 as well
[01:49] <mhz> JaneW: however, I had done some little stuff for a grown-up dark theme ;) (so at least, wallpaper and GTK theme is ready)
[01:49] <ogra> and just change the wallpaper between these two ...
[01:49] <ogra> but that still leaves open 10-X
[01:50] <JaneW> ogra: I suspect we'll have to have a couple of options and display them to management, and let them make the final call.
[01:50] <flint_> ogra, I personally fee that an X rates theme will have little classroom use :^)
[01:50] <ogra> flint_, come on, thats for the grown ups :)
[01:51] <flint_> ogra, here is where you may have issue with management.
[01:51] <ogra> JaneW, fine with me
[01:51] <ogra> flint_, naah, we have so beatiful nekkid peoplle pics we could use
[01:52] <ogra> ;)
[01:52] <flint_> seriously, stick to your guns and make management put resources into the mechanisim of this product.  do not work so hard on the show-y outside as an issue.
[01:52] <mhz> JaneW: ogra: just let me know if the 'options-to-show' are needed and I will move the earth to get it done very quickly
[01:53] <ogra> flint_, in any case the screenshots are what people look at
[01:53] <flint_> ogra, I know, it is just not what I see...
[01:55] <JaneW> mhz: options-to-show?
[01:55] <ogra> JaneW, community artwork for inclusion
[01:56] <mhz> JaneW: I thought you wanted to discuss this with management
[01:56] <mhz> and if needed community artwork, I could surely put some nice pressure on it
[01:56] <flint_> mhz, one of my favorite reasons for calling folks at odd hours is that "management" should be here or it should be us!
[01:57] <mhz> hehehe, :)
[01:57] <JaneW> we still have http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/edubuntu/ for community art work submissions
[01:57] <JaneW> please use it
[01:57] <mhz> in case someone needs daaarrrkk GTK -> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez/EdubuntuRelatedPhotos
[01:58] <flint_> this "management" issue is the major strutural flaw in edubuntu, and someone should communicate it eh Jane?
[01:58] <JaneW> mhz: I am pretty sure we will need community work, we have been told we only get one set of prof work, and I repleid saying we'd need to use community stuff for the rest
[01:58] <JaneW> I am assuming 'silence gives consent'
[01:58] <mhz> JaneW: lol! I love your idea
[01:58] <ogra> flint_, management issue ?
[01:59] <JaneW> mhz: wow - why so dark?
[01:59] <JaneW> mhz: could be good for the plain one that was requested
[01:59] <mhz> JaneW: because I have intolerance to light
[01:59] <JaneW> mhz: more terminal like and less distracting
[01:59] <JaneW> mhz: oic
[01:59] <mhz> and because I love terminal looks :D
[01:59] <flint_> ogra, later.
[02:00] <JaneW> ok our time is up
[02:00] <JaneW> are we done?
[02:00] <mhz> JaneW: I was making a greyish one (kind of metalic g4 powerbook) but ended up with black :P
[02:00] <JaneW> so do we have no voluntary scribe?
[02:00] <JaneW> mhz: grey could be nice
[02:00] <mhz> scribe?
[02:00] <JaneW> mhz: minute taker
[02:01] <JaneW> mhz: person to document the meeting decisions and actions
[02:01] <mhz> JaneW: yeah, the idea was grey-water-metallic
[02:01] <mhz> JaneW: how soon do you need the minutes of the meetings?
[02:01] <JaneW> mhz: asap, but really we just need them done
[02:01] <flint_> mhz,  interesting stuff Mauricio, I gotta stick with the janester here, can you turn it up to say, grey?
[02:02] <JaneW> I was doing them after the meeting each week, but I just never get around to doing them anymore
[02:02] <JaneW> mhz: ideally within a day of the meeting
[02:02] <JaneW> mhz: in point form would be fine
[02:02] <mhz> JaneW: if it is ok, I can have them done as soon as I finish my 3 letters and provide breakfast to family (total 4 hours)
[02:02] <JaneW> mhz: perfect!
[02:02] <ogra_> grumble
[02:02] <JaneW> mhz: you really are a star
[02:03] <mhz> JaneW: then we'll have those minutes today before 5 hours
[02:03] <ogra> mhz, btw, its caller 6.04, not 6.4
[02:03] <flint_> JaneW, this thing with Mauricio is a good thing.
[02:03] <mhz> JaneW: not a star, just a guy still wanting to try out your cakes :D
[02:03] <ogra> *called
[02:03] <mhz> ogra: duh! yeah! food point
[02:03] <mhz> good
[02:03] <ogra> :)
[02:04] <mhz> flint_: grey, sure! that was gonna be it until I thought people would not use such a plain dark thing :)
[02:04] <kjcole> (mhz, freudian slip "food point" with all that talk about breakfast and cakes.)
[02:05] <mhz> yup, lol!
[02:05] <flint_> mhz, did you get an account on the docbox
[02:05] <mhz> well, I have to run to provide breakfast before you get evening news saying "young very handsome chubby chilean died this morning..."
[02:06] <mhz> flint_: dont remember.. I have been very bussy trying to get sponsors for Ubuntu Tour in LA
[02:06] <mhz_food> I'll keep this open for 'minutes' purposes
[02:07] <mhz_food> See ya all later, alegators!
[02:07] <kjcole> I plan to write up something of a "best practices" for bzr (as gleaned from talks with ogra, jblack and lifeless) and put them in both the wiki and docbox.
[02:07] <flint_> kjcole, I think we will serve mhz up on the server eh?
[02:07] <flint_> as they say at Gallaudet, as Kevin has taught me, breakfast awaits stop keying, stop keying := sksk
[02:07] <JaneW> mhz_food: hehehe
[02:07] <flint_> bye all sksk
[02:08] <kjcole> later flint sksk
[02:08] <ogra> kjcole, according to a mail from sabdfl we'll have the supermirror soon
[02:08] <kjcole> ogra, yeah I saw that e-mail and sent it to flint and a few others.
[02:08] <ogra> great
[02:09] <kjcole> ogra, but what I meant was the ideas of people should expect someone central to pull / merge, rather than each of them trying to push to the central repository.
[02:10] <kjcole> Time for me to run... as usual.  Ta-ta.
[02:12] <lucasvo> ogra: what means "soon"?
[02:12] <lucasvo> :p
[02:12] <lucasvo> when will the supermirror be available?
[02:13] <ogra> no idea, the code snippets are there
[02:13] <lucasvo> so it will be integrated into launchpad?
[02:13] <ogra> but the launcpad team is busy with changing the build environment from buildds to launchpad ..
[02:13] <ogra> it will be the core of launchpad, yes
[02:14] <lucasvo> ok


[02:34] <thumper> wallyworld: ping
[02:34] <wallyworld> wot
[02:38] <thumper> wallyworld: hangout?
[02:38] <wallyworld> ok
[02:38] <thumper> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/72cpj771u1klaslrripsbvshss?hl=en
[02:39] <thumper> wallyworld: ?^^
[03:33]  * thumper is trying to work out the least shitty way to do something
[03:33] <thumper> there doesn't seem to be a clean way to get the machine agent data dir from the api server client
[03:33] <thumper> since this is needed to get the ssh identity file location...
[03:33] <thumper> I could pass the *agent.Config through about 4 layers
[03:34] <thumper> or...
[03:34] <thumper> oh, we
[03:34] <thumper> ew
[03:34] <thumper> I could use a global :-)
[03:34] <thumper> axw, wallyworld, davecheney: opinions?
[03:35] <wallyworld> noooo. not a global
[03:35] <thumper> pass the agent config pointer?
[03:35] <wallyworld> could we attach it as a stuct attr somewhere/
[03:35] <wallyworld> ?
[03:35] <thumper> it'll need to go machine agent -> api server -> root -> api
[03:36] <thumper> wallyworld: it is the three or four somewheres...
[03:36] <wallyworld> i know there are other places where agent.Config is passed around
[03:36] <wallyworld> so doing it that way at least is consistent
[03:36] <thumper> yeah...
[03:36] <wallyworld> maybe see how it is done elsewhere?
[03:37] <thumper> wallyworld: it is passed into the worker
[03:37] <thumper> but it is normally only one level deep
[03:38] <thumper> the api server is somewhat nested
[03:38] <wallyworld> ah ok. i couldn't recall how it was used
[03:38] <wallyworld> what about adding it to the state struct of whatever
[03:38] <axw> thumper: I wonder if the key should end up getting plonked in the client key dir that I'm introducing, which will automatically get picked up by utils/ssh
[03:39] <wallyworld> not sure, just hand waving
[03:39] <thumper> axw: but the key is on the state server, not the local machine
[03:39] <thumper> axw: two very different ssh bits
[03:40] <axw> thumper: the client key dir can be changed. it doesn't have to be ~/.juju/ssh
[03:40] <axw> just a thought, not necessarily a good one
[03:40] <thumper> axw: yeah, but I don't know which directory it is
[03:40] <thumper> that is the problem :)
[03:40] <axw> thumper: at startup?
[03:41] <thumper> axw: well the machine agent knows, but that information isn't passed down to the api server client yet
[03:41] <thumper> just trying to work out how to get it down there...
[03:41] <thumper> I think just adding the param is a good start
[03:41] <thumper> better to store a single pointer to an already created structure
[03:41] <thumper> than to pass down a string
[03:41] <axw> right, but the machine agent can initialise the client key dir to be whatever it knows about, and then when the api server uses utils/ssh, it'll get picked up. maybe I don't understand correctly
[03:42] <thumper> ah... wat? how does utils/ssh pick up the client key dir?
[03:43] <thumper> axw: currently we write the generated private key into $datadir/system-identity
[03:43] <axw> thumper: it's a global, unique per process thing
[03:44] <thumper> wallyworld: there ya go, use a global :)
[03:44] <axw> heh
[03:44] <wallyworld> :-)
[03:45] <axw> normally I wouldn't advocate, but in this case it seemed cleanest. hasn't been reviewed yet though :)
[05:20]  * thumper avoids the global
[05:20] <thumper> and dances through the apiserver weirdness
[05:46]  * thumper throws in the towel for today
[05:46] <thumper> I'm pretty sure I have a way forward now...
[05:46] <thumper> at least
[05:46] <thumper> night all
[08:08] <wallyworld_> jam: i'm about to head out tonight to a function, so will miss the stand up. i've got about 4 pipes in progress, but none ready to propose yet
[08:08] <jam> wallyworld_: k, anything you want to summarize for the group?
[08:09] <wallyworld_> i've been adding a bunch of instrafstructure for the charm update work, api service pieces, and splitting it all up, plus refoactoring further the charm store interface and test mock
[08:10] <wallyworld_> jam: also,i've had no feedback from martin on that bug and mp we discussed, i'm keen to hear something from hiom about that
[08:12]  * wallyworld_ runs away
[08:13] <rogpeppe> mornin' all
[09:42] <mgz> I may be a few mins late for the standup, but I should be around for it
[10:41] <jam> rogpeppe: I think you asked about the fireworks in Dubai: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo1JwImshw8&list=WLD47DA262F88F1497
[10:41] <jam> Its a better view than I had, since a lot of it is from above so you get to see the palm shape
[10:43] <rogpeppe> jam: thanks
[10:43] <rogpeppe> jam: that's quite a lot of fireworks...
[10:43] <jam> indeed
[10:43] <jam> where we were, we only saw the primary palm island on edge.
[10:43] <jam> so a couple low shots is what it looked like to uss
[11:09] <jam> welcome natefinch, how did you get here in the end ?
[11:11] <jam> rogpeppe: do you know if that was 1.16.3 against a 1.17 server, or a 1.17 against a 1.16.3 server?
[11:11] <natefinch> jam: ip address... something must be wonky with my DNS
[11:11] <rogpeppe> jam: the latter
[11:11] <jam> It doesn't reproduce for me just yet, but it looks like my /usr/bin/juju got updated over the vacaiton
[11:14] <jam> sudo apt-get install juju-core=1.16.3-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>~ctools0
[11:14] <jam> and now 'juju status' using 1.17 looks as described
[11:15] <jam> mgz: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6708528/
[11:15] <jam> mgz: ^^
[11:17] <mgz> jam: ta
[11:23] <jam> mgz:  but I also see it after doing "juju upgrade-juju -e local --upload-tools" with juju 1.16.5
[11:23] <mgz> okay, so it's probably not fixed for them
[11:24] <jam> mgz: well "its fixed" was that they reverted to the 1.16.5 client, I bet
[11:24] <jam> mgz: but you're going to file the bug, right, or shall I do it and assign it to you ?
[11:25] <jam> its certainly considered a critical bug that juju status in the 1.17 series is incompatible with the 1.16 series, just like add-machine, etc.
[11:25] <jam> I'm currently finishing add-machine
[11:25] <jam> we removed a struct I was using :(
[11:34] <mgz> jam: if you could file it, I will assign to me
[11:39] <jam> mgz: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1266734
[11:39] <_mup_> Bug #1266734: juju status incompatible in 1.17.0 against 1.16 <compatibility> <juju-core:Triaged by gz> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1266734>
[11:39] <jam> that's a bug in _mup_, Triaged by gz
[11:39] <jam> I assigned it to you, and it is triaged, but it certainly isn't triaged *by* you :)
[11:39] <jam> _mup_: make me a sandwich
[11:40] <jam> ah, mup doesn't respond to pokes anymore :(
[11:42] <mgz> :(
[11:57] <jam> axw: I'm getting "environment is no longer alive" trying to add a machine to a 1.16 system.
[11:57] <jam> Did we mess up the default value for environment life?
[11:58] <jam> mgz: ^^ that *might* be a hint as to what is going wrong? If juju 1.17 is saying "oh this env is dying, I won't probe any deeper", or something like that
[12:27] <axw> jam: I had tested when there was no life in the document... but it does sound like it points to that
[12:35] <jam> axw: it is the assertAliveOp()
[12:35] <jam> after debugging some more
[12:35] <jam> axw: Life() still returns Alive
[12:35] <jam> because 0 is the default value
[12:35] <jam> which is the enum Alive
[12:35] <jam> but assertAliveOp() asserts that "life == 0" when it "== nil)"
[12:35] <mgz> ha
[12:36] <axw> jam: yeah, I thought it was working in the db level too. sounds like I messed up my testing
[12:36] <axw> sorry
[12:36] <jam> mgz: sounds like unrelated to status
[12:36] <mgz> yeah, that's what I was coming to with adding logging in status here
[12:36] <jam> axw: well, I created a bug and assigned it to you already :)
[12:37] <axw> thanks, will get onto it in the morning
[12:37] <jam> https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1266748
[12:37] <_mup_> Bug #1266748: Environments.Life() in juju-1.17.0 incompatible with juju-1.16.* <compatibility> <juju-core:Triaged by axwalk> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1266748>
[12:37] <mgz> everyone can triage it!
[12:37] <jam> mgz: more importantly *I* can make anyone triage it :)
[12:38] <mgz> I'll try a hack fix and see if that make status happy
[12:40] <jam> axw: ugh, and your latest change to auth keys also conflicts with the changes to add machine... sigh
[12:40] <jam> guess I'll look more tomorrow
[12:41] <jam> I refactored that code so it operated in a "poll for information, then set that information"
[12:41] <jam> rather than interleaving it
[12:41] <jam> (so that when we go to set it via the API we can fallback to directly setting it in the DB)
[12:41] <jam> axw: note, what is your compatibility with 1.16 here with the ssh keys stuff?
[12:43] <axw> jam: I thought it was polling first to be honest - there were some late changes when merging with rogpeppe's updates, maybe it got broken around then. will have to investigate some more later
[12:43] <axw> umm
[12:43] <axw> jam: are you referring to the CL I put up today?
[12:43] <jam> axw: you just landed code today that breaks my patch for bug #1253631
[12:43] <_mup_> Bug #1253631: juju add-machine in trunk is incompatible with 1.16 <compatibility> <regression> <juju-core:Triaged by jameinel> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1253631>
[12:44] <jam> when I mean "poll", I just mean, gather up the information we need to send in the add-machine request and do all the gathering before we start talking to the db.
[12:44] <axw> yeah, I thought that was being done
[12:45]  * axw looks at what he merged today
[12:45] <jam> axw: I created a new function "gatherMachineParams" that did all of the NewUUID, ParseIP, hostAddresses, checkProvisioned, etc
[12:45] <jam> and Arch, and etc
[12:46] <jam> it was a bit interleaved in the function before
[12:46] <jam> anyway, I can sort it out
[12:46] <axw> jam: ah, sorry
[12:46] <jam> just one more time that this stuff got broken (ian did it last time by getting rid of State.AddMachine)
[12:46] <axw> jam: as for 1.16 compat, the stuff I've done is all client side so far
[12:46] <jam> axw: I just need to get this landed so it is on everyone else to keep it working :)
[12:47] <jam> axw: sure, but changing where SSH keys are found is going to break if someone uses 1.17 and then 1.16, right?
[12:48] <jam> axw: InitUbuntuUser sounds a bit "mutating state" while we are "gathering information" (might be necessary, I'm not sure exactly yet)
[12:48] <axw> jam: sorry, I don't understand. if they use 1.17 and then 1.16...?
[12:48] <jam> axw: from what I can tell, if I use 1.17 client in a 1.16 environment, and do "juju add-machine" it is going to set up that machine in a way that 1.16 may not understand
[12:50] <axw> jam: all that InitUbuntuUser does is ensures that ubuntu exists on the machine, and if not creates it and makes it a passwordless sudoer
[12:51] <axw> so that's not going to break anything older - this is only done at add-machine/bootstrap time anyway
[12:51] <axw> the CL I put up today is about using additional keys from the client side; the additional public keys are added to authorized-keys in the env config
[12:52] <axw> so no changes needed on the server side there either
[13:43] <axw> jam: I realised what happened with my testing. The assertion used to be !dead, then it got changed during review
[13:44] <axw> and I didn't retest
[14:37] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i've been wondering about IP address changes with respect to replica sets
[14:37] <rogpeppe> natefinch: do you know how we can deal with that?
[14:37] <rogpeppe> natefinch: (at the moment i don't think it's possible to change the IP address of a member, right?)
[14:43] <rogpeppe> natefinch: ping?
[14:46] <natefinch> rogpeppe: here now
[14:46] <rogpeppe> natefinch: what do you think of the above?
[14:46] <natefinch> rogpeppe: I don't think you can change the ip address, but you can remove and re-add
[14:46] <rogpeppe> natefinch: you *should* be able to change the ip address, at least according to this: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mongodb-user/_EUC63MJfQA
[14:47] <rogpeppe> natefinch: unless i'm misinterpreting
[14:48] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: sorry, stupid USB ethernet adapter keeps making my computer hang up.  Didn't see anything after what I posted
[14:49] <rogpeppe> [14:46:58] <rogpeppe> natefinch: you *should* be able to change the ip address, at least according to this: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mongodb-user/_EUC63MJfQA
[14:49] <rogpeppe> [14:47:07] <rogpeppe> natefinch: unless i'm misinterpreting
[14:52] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: you're right.  I thought I had seen somewhere that you oculdn't change the host on a member, but maybe I'm thinking of something else. Looks like you can: http://docs.mongodb.org/manual/tutorial/change-hostnames-in-a-replica-set/
[14:53] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: i think that means, unfortunately, that our current strategy of keying by address is not valid
[14:54] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: jam also brought up the point that it would probably be better if we didn't denormalise the replica set voting info
[14:54] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: which means, i think, that we want to be able to map from replicaset Members to *state.Machine
[14:55] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: i think we can probably use the tagging functionality for that
[14:55] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: we'd associate a tag holding the machine id with the replica set member
[14:57] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: so, there is a problem with replicaset.Set, if you modify the address of a member, yes.   I thought I had mostly copied that function from the javascript code, but maybe there's a subtle difference.  I can double check.
[14:58] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: I'm not sure what you mean by denormalizing the voting info
[14:58] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: do the ids have to be strictly numbered from zero?
[14:59] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: I don't believe so, I was just following the way the javascript code works.
[15:00] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: so you want the id to be the same as the machine id?
[15:00] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: i'm not sure if that's a good idea
[15:00] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: but we could provide access to the Tags functionality
[15:01] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: and state something like: if the id is greater than zero, it is treated as explicitly set
[15:01] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: otherwise it will be automatically generated
[15:03] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: then a client of the package can inspect the tags and determine which members match, according to the tags, and when updating, it can reuse the original indexes for previously existing members
[15:03] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: does that make some kind of sense?
[15:04] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: what are we gaining?  Just being able to figure out what replica member corresponds to what machine, if its address changes?
[15:04] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: it means we can use the replicaset member list as the canonical source of what machines are voting
[15:05] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: rather than needing to trust that state reflects that correctly
[15:07] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: definitely using the information in the replicaset member list as the canonical source of who is voting is the way to go, since it *is* the canonical source :)  However, I'm trying to figure out when the host name in the member list would be wrong, and how this would help in that situation.  obviously if the hostname is wrong in mongo, then that member isn't voting anyway, right?
[15:09] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: consider what will happen if a machine's address changes. the address updater will change the machine's address in state, and we will need to change the appropriate replica set member to reflect the new address
[15:09] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: that member can't vote while it has the wrong address, but it's still a valid member (it's analagous to a network error cutting off that machine, i think)
[15:09] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: can't that just be another thing the address updater does, change it in the replica config?
[15:10] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: i don't want two things both changing the replica config
[15:10] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: seems like a recipe for race conditions
[15:12] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: hmm.. true.  I'm just not a fan of having things out of sync like that.
[15:13] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: well, it's just one part of the address propagation
[15:13] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: the machine's address was out of date for a while too
[15:14] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: I'm not averse to having the machine id be the replica id.  That's not a terrible solution, though maybe tags are more flexible in case of weird edge cases
[15:14] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: i don't want to tie us to having integer machine ids
[15:15] <nate_finch> rogpeppe: ahh, as opposed to random strings?
[15:15] <nate_finch> "random"  = arbitrary
[15:15] <rogpeppe> nate_finch: yeah
[15:15] <natefinch> rogpeppe: good point.
[15:18] <natefinch> rogpeppe: I don't know that tags is the right solution.  Couldn't we just add a value to the machine document in state to hold replica set member id?
[15:20] <rogpeppe> natefinch: using tags seems like a direct reflection of what we want to do
[15:20] <rogpeppe> natefinch: the other way around isn't so clearly correct to me
[15:21] <rogpeppe> natefinch: because the replica set must be updated independently from the machine doc
[15:21] <rogpeppe> natefinch: so there's a potential for things to get out of step
[15:21] <rogpeppe> natefinch: what are your reservations about using tags here?
[15:22] <natefinch> rogpeppe: tags are human-readable information used for selecting machines.  I don't think replica set id is really anything anyone will ever want to see in tags.
[15:23] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i don't think it's incompatible with that
[15:24] <rogpeppe> natefinch: { "juju-machine-id": "12" }
[15:25] <rogpeppe> natefinch: they don't look like they're for human-readable info to me, BTW
[15:25] <rogpeppe> natefinch: mostly it looks like they're used for write- and read-concern configuration
[15:25] <rogpeppe> natefinch: http://docs.mongodb.org/manual/tutorial/configure-replica-set-tag-sets/
[15:26] <natefinch> rogpeppe: crap, we were talking about different things.  I thought you meant tags in state on the machine docs
[15:26] <natefinch> rogpeppe: yes, that sounds fine
[15:26] <rogpeppe> natefinch: ah, cool
[15:27] <rogpeppe> natefinch: sorry for the misunderstanding
[15:27] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i'd forgotten state.Machine had tags :-)
[15:27] <natefinch> rogpeppe: haha no big deal
[15:30] <mattyw> fwereade, we should probably have a chat this week about the next stage of user ids in juju
[15:40] <rogpeppe> natefinch: would you be able to move forward with that?
[15:43] <rogpeppe> natefinch: or i could if you're otherwise busy
[15:46] <natefinch> rogpeppe: I can do that.
[15:47] <rogpeppe> natefinch: thanks!
[15:48] <rogpeppe> natefinch: just to be clear, i'm thinking of this:
[15:48] <rogpeppe> // Set changes the current set of replica set members.  Members will have their
[15:48] <rogpeppe> // ids set automatically if they are zero.
[15:48] <rogpeppe> abentley: and a change to a Tags field to Member
[15:48] <rogpeppe> oops
[15:48] <rogpeppe> s/abentley/natefinch/
[15:49] <abentley> rogpeppe: That's good, 'cause I had no clue...
[15:49] <rogpeppe> abentley: :-)
[15:50] <natefinch> rogpeppe: yep, sounds good
[15:51] <rogpeppe> natefinch: and the automatic ids we'd choose would start from 1, not 0
[15:51] <natefinch> rogpeppe: right
[15:58] <fwereade> mattyw, for sure
[15:58] <fwereade> mattyw, I'm sprinting today and flying tomorrow
[15:59] <mattyw> fwereade, no problem, shall I put something in the diary for thursday or friday or would you prefer to wait till next week?
[15:59] <fwereade> mattyw, if I come online tomorrow pm before you go, grab me -- otherwise it may have to be thursday
[15:59] <fwereade> mattyw, let's do thursday, it's a meetingy day for me anyway
[15:59] <mattyw> fwereade, ok cool - I'll put something in the diary
[15:59] <mattyw> fwereade, thanks very much
[16:00] <fwereade> mattyw, a pleasure, sorry it can't be sooner
[16:00] <mattyw> fwereade, not at all - I have plenty to do in the meantime
[16:00] <fwereade> mattyw, cool
[16:05]  * rogpeppe grabs a late lunch
[17:31] <rogpeppe> natefinch: important thing i've just noticed, (from http://docs.mongodb.org/manual/tutorial/configure-replica-set-tag-sets/) the type of the Tags field should be map[string]string
[17:42] <rogpeppe> natefinch: do you have a strong idea as to what we should do if we find extra members in the peer set that don't correspond to machines?
[18:05] <natefinch> rogpeppe: yeah, I was making the Tags map[string]string .    Not sure what to do if we find extra members.   Honestly, I think if we just ignore that condition it'll basically take care of itself, which is to say, normally we'll just ignore them, if the normal process is <get config> <change node in config> <set config>
[18:05] <rogpeppe> natefinch: it's not quite that straightforward
[18:06] <rogpeppe> natefinch: for the time being i'm just going to return an error if there extra members
[18:06] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i've added a TODO comment with various options
[18:06] <natefinch> rogpeppe: that's probably fine... it shouldn't really ever happen unless people go messing with the replicaset by hand, in which case, not mucking with it is probably the right thign to do
[18:07] <rogpeppe> yeah
[18:07] <rogpeppe> natefinch: BTW i just wanted the replica set id from the CurrentStatus results - it's not there and not documented, but it appears in the actual results
[18:08] <rogpeppe> natefinch: do you think it's reasonable to add it as a field in the Status type?
[18:09] <natefinch> rogpeppe: sure, no harm
[18:09] <rogpeppe> natefinch: one mo, i'll just check that it is the expected id
[18:10] <natefinch> rogpeppe: probably we should just export a ReplicaSetStatus struct that includes the data from replSetGetStatus
[18:11] <rogpeppe> natefinch: isn't that what Status is?
[18:11] <natefinch> rogpeppe: status just returns the members right now
[18:11] <natefinch> rogpeppe: the member statuses that is
[18:11] <rogpeppe> natefinch: ah yes
[18:12] <natefinch> rogpeppe: brb diaper
[18:12] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i don't care much at the moment
[18:12] <natefinch> (not mine ;)
[18:18] <natefinch> rogpeppe: back
[18:18] <rogpeppe> natefinch: confirmed that _id is the replica set id
[18:19] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i thought it was strange that it wasn't there, otherwise there's no way of cross-correlating statuses with members
[18:20] <rogpeppe> natefinch: unless you assume that there's a one-to-one correspondence in the arrays, but that's not documented either
[18:23] <natefinch> rogpeppe: you mean between the members and their statuses in replSetGetStatus?  I presume there's a 1:1 relationship.  I'd be surprised if there were not
[18:24] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i would too, but i can't find anything that documents that fact
[18:24] <rogpeppe> natefinch: and the fact that we can't fetch them both at the same time makes me naturally wary
[18:24] <rogpeppe> natefinch: so given that the _id field is provided, i'd rather latch onto that
[18:25] <natefinch> rogpeppe: that's fine
[19:01]  * rogpeppe is done for the day
[19:01] <rogpeppe> g'night all
[19:02] <natefinch> rogpeppe: g'night
[19:53] <thumper> morning folks
[20:44] <thumper> o/ natefinch
[20:45] <thumper> natefinch: care for a catch up call?
[20:53] <natefinch> thumper: sorry, just got surprise acquisition of the kids for a bit.


[00:04] <cmaloney> Evening
[00:34] <rick_h_> evening
[00:35] <cmaloney> Are you at CHC?
[00:35] <rick_h_> no, flew home from austin today
[00:36] <rick_h_> zzzzzz
[00:36] <cmaloney> Ah, that's what I figured
[00:36] <cmaloney> I skipped today.
[00:36] <cmaloney> shhhhh
[00:36] <cmaloney> (drinking bourbon)
[00:36] <rick_h_> 6:30am boarding makes for sleepy
[00:36] <rick_h_> lol
[00:36] <rick_h_> good stuff
[00:36] <cmaloney> I'll bet
[13:25] <cmaloney> Morning pt 2
[13:25] <rick_h_> party
[13:26] <cmaloney> How goes?
[13:26] <cmaloney> Rested?
[13:26] <rick_h_> ok, still tired
[13:26] <cmaloney> I'll bet
[13:26] <rick_h_> but sprint next week so lots of prep/etc so wheeee
[13:28] <cmaloney> woo woo
[13:29] <jrwren> rick_h_: London?
[13:32] <rick_h_> jrwren: hopefully
[13:32] <rick_h_> either london or madrid, still working it out
[13:33] <cmaloney> That's kind of a large distance for short notice? :)
[18:12] <greg-g> last minute transatlantic flights? our travel dept wouldn't allow that :)
[18:13] <rick_h_> :)
[18:14] <rick_h_> well trying to keep on plan to go to london, but there's talk of needing folks for an event in spain and I'm trying to stay out of it
[18:14] <rick_h_> but there's times that last minute is what it is
[18:14] <rick_h_> and you choke on the ticket sticker shock
[18:15] <greg-g> yup
[18:15] <greg-g> especially when travel comes out of your own budget
[18:15] <rick_h_> yea
[18:21] <cmaloney> ouch