[16:32] <balloons> elopio, it seems the AP docs for ubuntu-ui-toolkit have been removed from the ubuntu-ui-toolkit branch
[16:36] <elopio> balloons: I didn't know the docs where on the branch.
[16:36] <elopio> I thought you generated them manually and uploaded them to the server.
[16:37] <balloons> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-sdk-team/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/trunk/revision/975
[16:37] <balloons> elopio, yes.. they were checked in and part of the build.
[16:37] <balloons> they were supposed to be synced to the server
[16:37] <balloons> that didn't happen, but it seems the docs too are gone
[16:40] <elopio> hum, balloons: in what directory were they?
[16:45] <balloons> there own dir.. you can see in the bzr diff there I linked
[16:46] <balloons> i'll have to track it down later.. but I want a new build so the docs are updated
[16:46] <balloons> back in a bit
[19:08] <Letozaf_> balloons, elopio hi
[19:13] <balloons> Letozaf_, hello
[19:13] <Letozaf_> balloons, hello howzit ?
[19:20] <balloons> Letozaf_, good. So elopio was hoping to help you get your branch merged
[19:20] <balloons> Letozaf_, he put together this branch as you saw to add a notebook. https://code.launchpad.net/~elopio/reminders-app/autopilot-add_notebook/+merge/219237
[19:20] <Letozaf_> balloons, yes is he about ?
[19:20] <balloons> Letozaf_, I'm going to assume he'll show up in a second. I spoke with him about this a bit ago
[19:21] <Letozaf_> balloons, ok
[19:21]  * Letozaf_ is looking at the branch
[19:28] <barry> \o/
[19:30] <balloons> or perhaps elopio won't appear :-) Letozaf_ did you get the sdk installed?
[19:31] <Letozaf_> balloons, yes
[19:33] <balloons> Letozaf_, were you able to get it working at all?
[19:34] <Letozaf_> balloons, mmm... can fidle with it but I never really used it
[19:36] <balloons> Letozaf_, I believe the idea is to use it to add a notebook and a note first, then run your tests. Does that make sense?
[19:36] <Letozaf_> balloons, yes
[19:51] <thomi> morning
[19:58] <Letozaf_> balloons, I installed evernote-sdk-python but think I will need help for using it
[19:59] <balloons> Letozaf_, well since elopio isn't appearing let me give it a whirl
[19:59] <elopio> hey
[19:59] <elopio> Letozaf_, balloons: I was having lunch.
[19:59] <Letozaf_> elopio, hello :-)
[19:59] <balloons> elopio, :-)
[19:59] <elopio> how can I help?
[19:59] <balloons> Letozaf_, is here.. time to finish out the branch
[20:00] <balloons> Letozaf_, this is a quick start guide, I was going to point you to here first: https://github.com/evernote/evernote-sdk-python
[20:00] <balloons> we need a bit of code to create the note and notebook
[20:00] <elopio> balloons: can you top approve my other branch so it gets into trunk?
[20:02] <balloons> elopio, ohh yes, sorry :-)
[20:03] <elopio> Letozaf_: balloons: let me write a script to create notes using the sdk.
[20:04] <Letozaf_> elopio, ok
[20:09] <balloons> your branch is landing now
[20:09] <balloons> Leo's that is
[20:15] <thomi> barry: did you get a moment to look at the sphinxcontrib packaging?
[20:20]  * barry ties his shoes
[20:21] <barry> thomi: whu?  you talkin' to me?
[20:21] <barry> thomi: no.  i suck.  keep bugging me until i do!  i'm very close to finishing up this other big mass of hack.
[20:21] <thomi> barry: oh don't worry, I'm pretty persistent, I'll keep bugging you :)
[20:22] <thomi> if it takes too long you might find I start visiting you in person :)
[20:22] <barry> thomi: jeebus!  get off my back man!
[20:22] <barry> :)
[20:22] <thomi> :)
[20:38] <elopio> balloons: we won't be able to run the reminders tests with python3 until thrift is ported.
[20:38] <balloons> elopio, that's a hard depends we have i believe. for the image, we need py3
[20:42] <Letozaf_> balloons, elopio it's getting quite late here in Itlay :) do you mind if I come back tomorrow night ?
[20:42] <balloons> Letozaf_, since I threw a brick into elopio plans, hehe, that's probably a good idea
[20:42] <elopio> yup
[20:42] <Letozaf_> balloons, elopio ok guys see you tomorrow buona notte :-)
[20:42] <elopio> our options are to push the thrift port, or to do our own client that doesn't use thrift.
[20:43] <balloons> buona notte Letozaf_
[20:43]  * balloons pokes barry
[20:43] <elopio> balloons: do we have any dev contacts in evernote? They should be the most interested on making their sdk work with py3.
[20:44] <balloons> elopio, we do
[20:45] <balloons> https://github.com/evernote/evernote-sdk-python3
[20:45] <balloons> they've been working on it
[20:45] <elopio> balloons: oh, they include a thrift library ported with 2to3
[20:46] <barry> balloons: hey
[20:46] <balloons> hey barry I was just poking you about doing porting work to python3 :-) Since I told Leo we can't use py2 modules
[20:46] <elopio> balloons: so, should we tell daniel to publish on the ppa that thrift as python-thrift?
[20:47] <elopio> balloons: so, should we tell daniel to publish on the ppa that thrift as python3-thrift?
[20:47] <barry> what's "py2"? :)
[20:47] <barry> py2 must die
[20:47] <balloons> perfect barry.. you are playing the role beautifully
[20:47]  * barry bows... ACTING!
[20:50] <balloons> elopio, we could just use the experimental code, sure. It should be more than enough for our needs which are extremely basic
[20:51] <balloons> I should say it's not experimental, more like not feature complete
[20:51] <balloons> elopio, and yes python3-thrift
[20:51] <balloons> I didn't even catch on, sorry should have noticed and mentioned it sooner
[21:23] <robotfuel> elopio: https://code.launchpad.net/~chris.gagnon/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/autopilot_wait_for_popover/+merge/219601 I have a simple mp for the uitk
[21:24] <robotfuel> elopio: can you review when you have time?
[21:25] <elopio> robotfuel: yes, I can.


[16:04] <AndrewMcC> Clearing out the office, found a PC from 2001. Boots with 12.04 perfectly, if slowly.
[16:05] <AndrewMcC> Also found an old HD which I plugged in. Turns out to be an install of RedHat 8.0, last shut down on October 21st, 2003!
[16:06]  * zmoylan-len cleared out all my old hd today.  about 20 of them.  maybe 100gb in total :-)
[16:07] <AndrewMcC> :)
[16:10] <zmoylan-len> thank goodness for free home electrical waste depot near connolly station
[20:36] <delcoyote> were is located? the free home electrical waste depot?
[20:37] <delcoyote> I'll cry when I dump my cyrix 300mhz
[20:39] <zmoylan-hp> too seconds and i'll dig out map location for shamrock terrace.
[20:42] <zmoylan-hp> https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.355091,-6.24451&spn=0.001282,0.002411&t=m&z=19
[20:44] <zmoylan-hp> http://www.dublincity.ie/WaterWasteEnvironment/Waste/Documents/North%20Strand%20R%20Centre.pdf
[20:54] <delcoyote> thanks a million!


[12:12] <mdke> hi Burgundavia
[12:14] <Burgundavia> salut
[12:19] <mdke> good night all
[12:35] <Kinnison> Hihi burgey!
[02:05] <mpt> Burgundavia: Ok, suggest some unauthenticated crack I should isntall to see this authentication alert (I assume that's the alert you're talking about)
[02:05] <Burgundavia> not that one
[02:05] <mpt> ok, how do I get it
[02:05] <Burgundavia> the settings--repo-->authentication one
[02:06] <Burgundavia> the first one is also too verbose
[02:09] <mpt> I don't even understand what that dialog is for
[02:10] <mpt> though I do know that I can open five copies of it at once, which shouldn't be possible.
[02:11] <Burgundavia> I can't on breezy
[02:12] <Burgundavia> mpt, did you see what I wanted to change the string at the top too?
[02:13] <mpt> Yes, I did, but I still don't understand what the dialog is for.
[02:14] <mpt> *How* does it help me check software integrity?
[02:14] <mpt> What happens if the software isn't integr... um, good?
[02:14] <Burgundavia> verifies that what you have downloaded is from a trusted source
[02:15] <Burgundavia> and hasn't been modified between the trusted source and you
[02:20] <mpt> So how does one acquire such keys?
[02:20] <mpt> I guess the keys for the Hoary repositories were supplied on the Hoary CD
[02:21] <mpt> but how would I get one when adding another repository?
[02:23] <Burgundavia> you need to add them manually :(
[02:26] <mpt> So you'd find them on a Web page or something?
[02:26] <Burgundavia> you find them with the repo
[02:26] <mpt> "with"?
[02:26] <mpt> Where would you find a repository?
[02:26] <Burgundavia> on the webpage that lists the repo
[02:26] <Burgundavia> basically, there is no reason why a user would need to add anything but the backports repo
[02:28] <mpt> ok.
[02:29] <mpt> Results of baz undo -n:
[02:29] <mpt> These files would be source but lack inventory ids (`baz add' perhaps?):
[02:29] <mpt> database/schema/patch-14-09-0.sql
[02:29] <mpt> These explicit ids have no corresponding file:
[02:29] <mpt> database/schema/archive/.arch-ids/patch-14-09-0.sql.id
[02:30] <mpt> whoops, wrong channel
[02:30] <Burgundavia> ok then, was wondering what happened
[02:32] <mpt> heh
[02:43] <mpt> but you can't add a repository other than the three in the menu anyway!
[02:44] <mpt> so why does that dialog exist?
[02:44] <Burgundavia> say again?
[02:46] <mpt> When I click "Add", I get a dialog containing an option menu with only three choices
[02:47] <mpt> Ubuntu 5.04 "Hoary Hedgehog", Ubuntu 5.04 Security Updates, and Ubuntu 5.04 Updates.
[02:47] <mpt> So I can't add any other repositories.
[02:51] <mpt> Burgundavia: I was going to suggest: "If you use other repositories, you should add their public keys here, so Synaptic can ensure software it downloads from them hasn't been tampered with."
[02:51] <mpt> But if you can't add other repositories in the first place, there's not much point :-)
[02:54] <mpt> yay, and now a few of the disappearing windows are behind all my other windows and won't come to the front, the Repositories dialog refuses to close
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mpt, you can, but you shouldn't
[03:01] <Burgundavia> you can also add custom
[03:01] <Burgundavia> bascially, that dialog needs to be reworked
[03:01] <mpt> Oh, I didn't see that, because "Custom" didn't end in "..."
[03:02] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:24] <jsgotangco> gyaahhh community council meeting is 6am in my time
[08:45] <mdke> morning all
[08:46] <mdke> CarlK, suggestions for documentation?
[08:46] <mdke> jsgotangco, you'll have to get up early :p
[08:53] <mdke> CarlK, suggestions for documentation are not too late, you can post them to the docteam list<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[08:54] <mdke> have a nice day all, i'm off to school
[09:43] <jsgotangco> helllooo docbook junkies!
[10:19] <Burgundavia> salut all
[10:24] <Burgundavia> mpt, ping
[10:26] <mpt> pong
[10:26] <mpt> @#$%! gtk focus model
[10:26] <Burgundavia> mpt, check your inbox
[10:26] <Burgundavia> didn't think you were going to be up, so I emailed you a link
[10:28] <mpt> awwwww
[10:29] <mpt> WordPress 1.2! That person needs to install security updates, stat
[10:35] <mpt> thanks for the link
[10:37] <Burgundavia> np, I like to filter news to people who need it
[10:37] <Burgundavia> as I am a news junkie
[10:40] <jsgotangco> what the
[10:40] <jsgotangco> http://www.sakakibara-kikai.co.jp/
[10:40] <jsgotangco> jeezz
[10:40] <jsgotangco> real life mech warrior
[10:41] <jsgotangco> http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/index.php?p=545
[10:46] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, hate to burst your bubble, but it doesn't actually walk
[10:46] <jsgotangco> heh who cares its got rubber bullets
[10:49] <Burgundavia> yes
[10:53] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, http://www.dailygame.net/news/archives/004062.php
[10:59] <Burgundavia> salut Kinnison
[10:59] <Kinnison> hi burgey
[11:00] <Burgundavia> oh, is early there
[11:00] <Burgundavia> I thought it was rather late, then I looked at the clock
[11:03] <Kinnison> s'not early
[11:03] <Kinnison> 'tis 10am and I've been going for a while now
[11:04] <Burgundavia> tis sam and I've been going for a while now
[11:04] <Burgundavia> tis 2am and I've been going for a while now
[11:05] <Kinnison> Aye, but you're a freak :-) (of the nicest kind)
[11:05] <Burgundavia> yes
[11:05] <Burgundavia> and unemployed
[11:06] <Burgundavia> wow
[11:06] <Burgundavia> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4555373.stm
[11:07] <Burgundavia> and what did you partner say to that?
[11:08] <Burgundavia> ick! ads on your mobile http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4556833.stm
[11:08] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: erm, well when he came to bed he said "Find a stopping place" and conveniently I was one paragraph away from a chapter boundary
[11:08] <Burgundavia> ah
[11:13] <BeerDump> gyahh
[11:13] <BeerDump> power failure
[11:13] <BeerDump> its raining so hard here
[11:14] <BeerDump> Burgy, we do have lpg powered vehicles for quite some time
[11:14] <BeerDump> even natural gas
[11:14] <Burgundavia> yes, but mandating it?
[11:14] <Burgundavia> no western country is that bold
[11:14] <Burgundavia> too many soccer moms with their SUV;s
[11:15] <BeerDump> 3G advertisments ewww
[11:15] <Burgundavia> I have never seen a non-gas/diesel vehicle
[11:15] <BeerDump> even electric?
[11:15] <Burgundavia> well, I have seen one electric and several hybrid
[11:15] <Burgundavia> but the former was not a car that somebody owned
[11:16] <BeerDump> some of the bus here are natural gas i think they are going to mandate it
[11:16] <Burgundavia> basically, there are some non gas/diesel, but they are very very few
[11:16] <BeerDump> because we have so much supply of natural gas down south
[11:16] <Burgundavia> BeerDump, where are you?
[11:16] <BeerDump> its me jsgotangco
[11:16] <Burgundavia> ah
[11:16] <BeerDump> we just had a power failure
[11:16] <Burgundavia> ok
[11:17] <BeerDump> its raining hard
[11:17] <Burgundavia> ah, tropical rain
[11:17] <Burgundavia> doesn't rain like that here
[11:17] <BeerDump> i think summer is about to end here
[11:17] <BeerDump> its been so humid lately
[11:17] <BeerDump> and raining hard in the afternoon
[11:18] <BeerDump> the heat i can manage but not the humidty
[11:18] <BeerDump> taking a bath twice a day is still not enough
[12:00] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, creating a deb package isnt that hard
[12:02] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, no it is not, but there are many different ways of configuring an already created one
[12:02] <Burgundavia> I basically ran into a wall and couldn't get past it
[12:02] <Burgundavia> I think I was failing to grasp some simple concept
[12:02] <jsgotangco> ahhh thats true
[12:03] <Burgundavia> thus I make a perfect candidate for tsengs thing, as I know a little big about it, but existing tutorials have failed me
[12:04] <Burgundavia> once I figue it out, basically I want to crank out packages with .desktop files
[12:04] <jsgotangco> PackagingSystemDocumentation?
[12:04] <Burgundavia> no, IntroDeveloperDocs
[12:05] <jsgotangco> ah
[12:05] <Burgundavia> I want a AddingADesktopFile doc
[12:05] <jsgotangco> Unfrgiven is supposed to make a draft
[12:05] <Burgundavia> yes, tseng is going to work on it once mono hits main, from what i understand
[12:05] <jsgotangco> right
[12:21] <jsgotangco> ok bye bye
[03:26] <mkde> hi all
[03:26] <mkde> jiyuu0, ping?
[03:46] <jiyuu0> mkde, pong
[03:46] <jiyuu0> just read ur mail too
[03:46] <mkde> jiyuu0, hiya, i just sent a second one
[03:46] <jiyuu0> i think it would be best that the new adaption be for breezy guide
[03:47] <jiyuu0> at least others who had translated 60% won't have to start again
[03:47] <mkde> it will be possible to import the translations which have already started
[03:47] <jiyuu0> http://launchpad.ubuntu.com/Rosetta
[03:47] <jiyuu0> is down
[03:48] <mkde> oh yeah
[03:48] <jiyuu0> is that the sample site?
[03:48] <mkde> no its being used to translate all of Ubuntu's programs at the moment, and also some of our documentation
[03:49] <mkde> jiyuu0, sorry i got the link wrong. its http://launchpad.ubuntu.com/rosetta
[03:50] <mkde> jiyuu0, its possible that the people currently translating the guide are using .pot files already
[03:50] <mkde> jiyuu0, do you think its worth testing?
[03:50] <jiyuu0> nope... cause i ask em to follow the guide's format
[03:51] <jiyuu0> mkde, i would but don't think have extra time to burn
[03:51] <mkde> jiyuu0, the format would be maintained
[03:51] <jiyuu0> that's why... maybe could test now... and decide whether should port for the next ubuntu guide
[03:52] <mkde> jiyuu0, ok i'll test and we can see how it goes, no pressure
[03:52] <jiyuu0> ok thanks...
[03:52] <jiyuu0> haven slept yet
[03:52] <jiyuu0> since yesterday
[03:52] <mkde> lol
[03:52] <jiyuu0> and starwars is at 11pm
[03:52] <jiyuu0> noe 10pm
[03:52] <jiyuu0> hehe
[03:52] <jiyuu0> i'm sure i can concentrate or not
[03:53] <mkde> you seeing the first show?
[03:53] <jiyuu0> yub
[03:53] <mkde> awesome
[03:53] <jiyuu0> 3rd row from screen
[03:53] <jiyuu0> ok... gotta take bath then going to cinema... c'ya
[03:53] <mkde> have a great one
[03:54] <jiyuu0> :)
[05:43] <mkde> hi
[05:44] <mkde> anyone ever done an html2pot before?
[05:44] <mkde> i guess it should be similar to xml2pot...
[05:46] <mkde> getting a bunch of weird messages
[06:37] <abelli> jiyuu0: ciao
[06:54] <mattheweast> abelli, e' andato a vedersi star wars... ;)
[06:54] <mattheweast> _froud_, here?
[06:56] <abelli> mako: tanto per parlare italiano .. gli scrivero' una lettera minatoria.
[06:58] <mkde> ?
[06:59] <abelli> mkde: "to" + "send" + "somebody" + "an" + "email" ..
[07:00] <mkde> but who
[07:00] <mkde> maybe i came into the channel late
[07:02] <abelli> 18:56 < mattheweast> abelli, e' andato a vedersi star wars... ;)
[07:02] <abelli> May what im trying to tell you be with you.
[07:03] <mkde> ahhh
[07:03] <mkde> heh
[07:03] <mkde> got it now
[07:03] <mkde> this is the best episode
[07:07] <jjesse> which episode is it
[07:08] <mkde> mr burns gets fined for disposing radioactive waste. "That'll be 3 million dollars" "smithers, my wallet's in my right front pocket. While I'm here, I'll take that statue of justice." "Sold!"
[07:08] <jjesse> grin i love that one
[07:09] <jjesse> is that latter on that he makes lilttle lisa slury or whatever it is?
[07:09] <mkde> not sure, its the monorail one
[07:10] <jjesse> the mono rail song is one my favorite simpson songs :)
[07:10] <jjesse> besides of course the sanitation man
[07:10] <mkde> LD
[07:10] <mkde> :D
[07:11] <abelli> ciao, im off to something, ciao
[07:18] <mkde> _froud_, wb
[08:25] <jjesse> ?
[08:25] <jjesse> hello froud
[08:26] <froud> jjesse: hi
[08:26] <froud> wat's up
[08:26] <jjesse> fixing problems w/ my internet router
[08:26] <froud> my router is a linux box, zero to fix :-)
[08:27] <froud> I am dead on my feet
[08:27] <froud> boy linuxworld was busy today
[08:27] <jjesse> well had to restart my router for some reason
[08:27] <jjesse> did you have a good time?
[08:27] <froud> absolutelym we are having a ball
[08:28] <mdke> yo froud
[08:28] <froud> yo
[08:28] <mdke> i'm struggling with trying to get html converted to .pot
[08:28] <froud> ok
[08:28] <mdke> have used 4 different converters without success so far
[08:28] <froud> ok :-)
[08:29] <froud> what html ar eyou converting
[08:29] <mdke> is it correct that an xhtml compliant html document should be converted with xml2pot?
[08:29] <jjesse> the html in the wiki right mdke?
[08:29] <froud> no
[08:29] <mdke> froud, the unofficial ubuntu quickguide
[08:29] <mdke> froud, damn, seb128 and sladen told me it would work
[08:29] <froud> thats xhtml
[08:29] <froud> is it strict or transitional xhtml
[08:30] <mdke> froud, good question
[08:30] <mdke> lemme check
[08:30] <mdke> transitional
[08:30] <froud> good luck then :-) it will be a bitch
[08:30] <mdke> shit
[08:31] <froud> why do you want a pot of that
[08:31] <mdke> was thinking of trying to get it translated via rosetta rather than by hand
[08:31] <mdke> you'll see the thread on the ML
[08:31] <froud> yeah would be nice
[08:31] <mdke> is there a transitional->strict converter tool?
[08:31] <froud> tired have not touch my mail yet
[08:31] <froud> no
[08:32] <mdke> froud, btw there is a html2pot script written from the xml2pot tool, but it didn't work, i've mailed the maintainer
[08:32] <froud> you may try to run tidy on it first
[08:32] <froud> then validate the result agianst the strict dtd
[08:32] <froud> then fix all problems
[08:32] <froud> yes I know html2pot
[08:33] <mdke> the html2pot script had a problem with "duplicate message definition"
[08:33] <mdke> http://pastebin.ca/12056
[08:33] <mdke> otherwise it was running fine for about 30 seconds
[08:34] <froud> :-) invalid against the dtd, the file violaits the rules
[08:34] <froud> sort the violations
[08:34] <mdke> right, that is because it is transitional?
[08:34] <froud> and then it should run
[08:35] <froud> hard to say, transitional is very lax
[08:35] <froud> your best bet is to get it to strict
[08:35] <mdke> hmm
[08:35] <mdke> i guess that will be hard huh?
[08:35] <froud> then the doc is valid and wellformed against the strict dtd so it is xml
[08:36] <froud> it's not an easy process, carries overhead
[08:36] <froud> Hmmm I see people playing with all sorts of stuff
[08:36] <froud> well I guess they will just have to try it and learn
[08:36] <mdke> what about?
[08:36] <froud> not being funny now, but the problems are not new
[08:37] <mdke> what is it you're talking about?
[08:37] <froud> many people, have trie dto solve these problems and none have suceded
[08:37] <mdke> you mean the html2pot problems?
[08:37] <froud> the best you can hope for is a partial transformation
[08:37] <froud> then the restyou must do by hand
[08:37] <froud> yes
[08:38] <froud> and the wiki to xml
[08:38] <mdke> ah i'm not involved in that
[08:38] <froud> mdke: people dont know but the docbook devel comminity is large
[08:38] <mdke> i just thought it would be cool to use rosetta for the ubuntuguide
[08:38] <mdke> froud, ok
[08:38] <froud> there are many industry experts in that devel team
[08:39] <froud> if they dont have solutions, why do we think we can suddenly make them
[08:39] <mdke> froud, hey listen, i don't think anything, i was just experimenting to see if it was possible, that's all
[08:39] <froud> that is why I say let them try and then learn
[08:39] <froud> sure
[08:39] <froud> not being personal
[08:39] <mdke> hmm
[08:40] <mdke> if you think jeff is on a wild goose chase I think you should perhaps say so
[08:40] <froud> ubuntuguide needs to be done in svn
[08:40] <mdke> froud, that would be cool
[08:40] <mdke> froud, but as you say, it needs to be ported by hand
[08:40] <froud> but the owner has not commit to working in svn and the src is still closed to us
[08:40] <froud> we have the warty version in svn
[08:41] <froud> we ported it by hand
[08:41] <mdke> froud, i'll speak to him again, but we can't force people to do stuff
[08:41] <froud> it would be nice if somebody would update it to hoary
[08:41] <froud> no we cant
[08:41] <froud> however
[08:41] <froud> as I see it
[08:42] <froud> if the person does not open the code for easy collaboration, then why would I put energy into helping
[08:42] <mdke> ok
[08:42] <froud> it is admirable that people are actually trying to create a solution on a doc that is not open source
[08:43] <mdke> froud, depends how you define open source ;)
[08:43] <froud> says much for the open source community
[08:43] <mdke> as i say, it would be nice if he would work with us, but we can't force him
[08:44] <froud> sure, you can see it but you cant change it on ubuntuguide.org
[08:44] <froud> practicallyevery web site in the world can be seen in src
[08:44] <mdke> quite
[08:44] <froud> but that does not make it FOSS
[08:44] <mdke> i know
[08:45] <froud> his use of the license is also wrong
[08:45] <mdke> we can only tell him
[08:46] <froud> mdke: corey did a very good of of doing that
[08:46] <froud> we even got him to checkout the svn stuff
[08:46] <froud> anyway, I am dead beat and now off to bed
[08:47] <mdke> ok cool
[08:47] <jjesse> have a good lseep
[08:47] <jjesse> sleep
[08:47] <mdke> glad the conference is going well
[08:47] <froud> I think the direction is clear, focus on User Guide and the books in svn
[08:47] <froud> yes, excellent
[08:47] <froud> ok dudes chow
[08:47] <mdke> ciao


[04:19] <zul> 686-smp-dbg being built
[05:55] <fabbione> morning
[05:56] <fabbione> zul: still here?
[05:56] <fabbione> lamont: ?
[05:59] <fabbione> infinity: ping??
[08:42] <infinity> 686-dbg builds right after 386-dbg, right?
[08:44] <fabbione> yes
[08:44] <fabbione> it should
[08:44] <fabbione> AH AH
[08:44] <infinity> Alright, then we're almost at the point of failure.
[08:44] <fabbione> davis has hardware problems
[08:44] <fabbione> it started segfaulting also on a hoary chroot
[08:44] <infinity> And by 'hardware problems', you mean 'it came from Apple'?
[08:45] <fabbione> ehhe
[08:45] <fabbione> oh shit
[08:45] <fabbione> i just trashed the build on concordia!
[08:45] <fabbione> oh well it doesn't take long to redo it
[08:49] <infinity> Building 686-dbg now..
[08:49] <infinity> Please fail, please fail...
[08:51] <fabbione> hehe
[09:00] <infinity> \o/
[09:00] <infinity> Yay.  It failed the same way.
[09:01] <infinity> And, ofr the record, the chroot is completely up to date.
[09:03] <fabbione> oh great suckage
[09:04] <fabbione> now it would be interesting to see if the same chroot moved to concordia will complete the build
[09:05] <fabbione> infinity: let's try something...
[09:06] <fabbione> go where the kernel has been unpacked
[09:06] <fabbione> rm debian/build/build-686-dbg/stamp-build (if there is any)
[09:06] <fabbione> and do.....
[09:07] <infinity> (Should we try KALLSYMS_EXTRA_PASS?)
[09:07] <fabbione> sed -i -e's/# CONFIG_KALLSYMS_EXTRA_PASS is not set/CONFIG_KALLSYMS_EXTRA_PASS=y/g' debian/build/build-686-dbg/.config
[09:07] <infinity> Heh.
[09:08] <fabbione> then try to complete the build
[09:10] <infinity> Oh, for.... <sigh>
[09:10] <infinity> Thankfully, this is a reasonably speedy machine.
[09:10] <fabbione> yeah but you lose the config change
[09:10] <infinity> I know.
[09:11] <fabbione> you need to stop and edit debian/config/i386/686-dbg
[09:11] <fabbione> so it will be done automatically
[09:13] <fabbione> infinity: good idea :)
[09:18] <infinity> "There is a simple workaround that is to increase the WORKING_SET define
[09:18] <infinity> in scripts/kallsyms.c to something like 65536. This will include every
[09:18] <infinity> symbol in the token table calculation, so that even if symbol position
[09:18] <infinity> changes, the token table should be the same."
[09:18] <infinity> http://seclists.org/lists/linux-kernel/2005/May/2010.html
[09:19] <infinity> "The problem with this approach is that it takes longer to calculate the
[09:19] <infinity> token table. (~3secs on my P4 2.8GHz, 11300 symbols)"
[09:19] <infinity> I think we can spare 3 seconds on the buildds in the name of working kallsyms.  Perhaps this is a patch/fix we should apply. :)
[09:20] <infinity> (Or does it change the installed token table (System.map) to be huge?... That would be a runtime issue, not a build issue.  Hrm)
[09:23] <fabbione> no idea really
[09:23] <fabbione> but than... why does it build on concordia???
[09:23] <fabbione> and locally?
[09:23] <fabbione> but not in the buildd?
[09:23] <fabbione> i don't believe the patch is the real solution to the problem, tho it can be used to workaround it
[09:23] <infinity> And here's an explanation of the bug
[09:23] <infinity> http://seclists.org/lists/linux-kernel/2005/May/1727.html
[09:24] <infinity> I think the answer to "why does it only happen sometimes?" is "pure luck."
[09:25] <fabbione> make sense
[09:25] <infinity> (It may also have something to do with the running kernel, phase of the moon, and your favourite lunch item)
[09:26] <fabbione> ehhee
[09:27] <fabbione> infinity: we can just test it :)
[09:27] <fabbione> infinity: do you still have the unpacked tree?
[09:27] <infinity> Well, Im rebuilding with EXTRA_PASS right now.
[09:27] <infinity> But I like Sam's patch better (expecially since he seems confident it will make mainline)
[09:28] <fabbione> i am checking if it has been committed after rc5
[09:28] <fabbione> the problem is that shitnezz is in bk
[09:28] <fabbione> and linus doesn't use bk
[09:29] <fabbione> no it's not upstream yet
[09:33] <fabbione> JaneW: ping?
[09:36] <infinity> Ahh, here's why:
[09:36] <infinity> "As noted in mail sent to you the 14th of March I have this patch queued
[09:36] <infinity> up. But since Linus has asked for a calm down period it will wait
[09:36] <infinity> until next kernel release opens up."
[09:37] <infinity> So we may not see Sam's patch in mainline until 2.6.13
[09:38] <infinity> After this build, I'll check to see if the problem we're having is, indeed, the problem Sam's patch solves, or a differentone.
[09:38] <infinity> (looks like kallsyms alignment has just been messy in general lately... Look at all the patches to arch-specific areas in the tree for alignment issues...)
[09:39] <fabbione> infinity: cool thanks
[09:39] <infinity> IOW, someone broke something recently in the name of "elegance", and everyone else is cleaning up the mess.  Yay.
[09:40] <infinity> (Is it too late to switch Ubuntu to a BSD kernel?)

[09:40] <fabbione> infinity: ahaha
[09:40] <fabbione> we can probably consider to create a derivate once lp is in place
[09:40] <fabbione> the main issue is "when lp is in place"
[09:42] <fabbione> we need a name for the security release
[09:42] <JaneW> fabbione: pong
[09:42] <fabbione> JaneW: right in time :)
[09:42] <fabbione> we need 2 names lady :)
[09:42] <JaneW> 2!
[09:43] <fabbione> one vegetable/fruit based for the security release
[09:43] <JaneW> don;t be greedy
[09:43] <fabbione> and the usual nut for breezy :)
[09:43] <fabbione> 2 releases.. 2 different targets ;)
[09:45] <JaneW> fabbione: kernel - Laughing Lentil
[09:45] <JaneW> fabbione: security - Prickly Pear
[09:46] <fabbione> JaneW: rocking!!
[09:47] <fabbione> oh rc6 is out :)
[09:48] <infinity> JaneW : Nice to see that you've found a niche in Ubuntu. :)
[09:49] <infinity> Yeah, -rc6 is out.  That's what I was grepping for alignment changes. :)
[09:49] <fabbione> no i was checking directly in git
[09:49] <fabbione> and it's not there yet
[09:49] <fabbione> there are already a bunch of commits after rc6 including build fixes
[09:50] <fabbione> for today let's get this rc5 out with ppc64 and dbg support
[09:50] <fabbione> rc6 can wait
[09:50] <infinity> BUT RC6 IS SO MUCH BETTER CAUSE IT HAS A HIGHER NUMBER ON THE END!!!
[09:50] <fabbione> even if it should take too long to switch
[09:50] <fabbione> hahahahhaha
[09:51] <infinity> So, do you watch the build logs, make a note of every driver that has "I can't write C to save my life" compile warnings, and make a mental note to neevr use those modules on your own system? :)
[09:52] <fabbione> no.. i just don't use ubuntu kernels on my machine :)
[09:52] <fabbione> ahhahha
[09:52] <infinity> Alternately, there's the "you're using stuff that's been deprecated for 3 years, so obviously you don't maintain your dirvers" warnings.  I don't like those much either. :)
[09:54] <fabbione> yes
[09:54] <fabbione> ops
[09:54] <JaneW> infinity: heh yes, it's a tough job, but someone has to do it ;P
[10:12] <infinity> fabbione : Builds fine with EXTRA_PASS.  Will try Sam's patch instead now, for kicks.
[10:13] <infinity> (Though EXTRA_PASS should be a good enough bandaid to get this going for now)
[10:26] <fabbione> infinity: ok. remember to unset the EXTRA_PASS with the patch
[10:27] <infinity> Yes, obviously.
[10:27] <infinity> If you want to upload a -1.3 with EXTRA_PASS for now, though, it'll work on the buildds, it seems.
[10:29] <fabbione> nah i can wait for your extra test
[10:29] <fabbione> but hmmm
[10:29] <fabbione> yeah
[10:29] <fabbione> i will upload 1.3 with EXTRA_PASS
[10:29] <fabbione> and we can figure the proper fix for 1.4
[10:30] <fabbione> actually there is another thing we forgot to set in the -dbg packages...
[10:30] <fabbione> the ramdisk size that zul was talking about
[10:32] <infinity> Oh?
[10:32] <fabbione> infinity: a -dbg initrd is HUGE
[10:32] <infinity> -dbg ramdisks are too big?
[10:32] <infinity> Yeah.  That makes sense. :0
[10:32] <fabbione> and the kernel default is not enough
[10:32] <fabbione> so either i change the BLK_DEV_RAM_SIZE to a reasonable size
[10:32] <fabbione> or we need to figure a hook for grub
[10:33] <fabbione> and i guess the former > latter
[10:33] <fabbione> now the point is that i trashed all the -dbg images to test :)
[10:33] <fabbione> BUT WE HAVE BATTLE STAR CONCORDIA!
[10:34] <fabbione> with ccache :)
[10:35] <fabbione> goody.. both gcc-4.0 and gcc-3.4 are running the test suite on sparc
[10:39] <infinity> Pfft.  I'd feel your pain if I wasn't building gcc-3.3 and gcc-3.4 on m68k right now, after having just done two gcc-4.0 builds in a row.
[10:40] <fabbione> ehhehe
[11:08] <fabbione> [   ]  linux-image-2.6.12-1-686-dbg_<IP_ADDRESS>-1.3_i386.deb          07-Jun-2005 09:57  147M
[11:08] <fabbione> what's wrong with this????
[11:11] <infinity> Ouch.
[11:11] <infinity> Also, ouch.
[11:11] <infinity> No one's going to install that.
[11:11] <infinity> Which makes it effectively useless.
[11:11] <infinity> IMO.
[11:12] <fabbione> and elmo will hang us on a cross, starts the witch dance and burns us alive
[11:12] <fabbione> can you image over a GB of kernel push to the mirror on each update?
[11:13] <chmj> hehehe
[11:16] <fabbione> ok backup solution
[11:17] <fabbione> we can provide the configs, but not build them by default
[11:23] <fabbione> who needs it, will build it
[11:24] <chmj> +he
[11:24] <infinity> That's probably better.
[11:25] <infinity> I'm on 1.5k DSL, and in most of the world, that's still considered a "really good" connection (though I think it's crap), and as a regular user, I would never download a 147 MB package to debug a bug I filed.
[11:25] <fabbione> yeah i see no other solution
[11:25] <infinity> And when downloading the source is less bandwidth than downloading the debug package, one starts to wonder. :)
[11:25] <fabbione> infinity: actually.. that would be a good way to scare users in filing bugs
[11:25] <fabbione> ahhaha
[11:26] <fabbione> i need a big fat cigarette
[11:26] <Mithrandir> infinity: 1.5k DSL is fairly measly. :P
[11:26] <infinity> Back soon.
[11:26] <infinity> Mithrandir : Oh, I know, but it's still "decent" to most poeple.  Just not geeks.
[11:27] <Mithrandir> infinity: 1.5k?  You mean 1.5M, I hope.
[11:27] <Mithrandir> 1.5k is measly.  It's slower than what you get from a 28.8 modem
[11:27] <infinity> Err, yeah.
[11:27] <infinity> 1.5M, obviously.
[11:28] <chmj> I can only dream about 1M+ adsl
[11:28] <infinity> Brain == Lame.
[11:28] <Mithrandir> I need to get a faster networking card, since my router only has a 11Mbit WLAN card which limits my speed to ~2Mbit on my DSL.
[11:28] <Mithrandir> apparently, I have 4Mbit now.
[11:28] <infinity> Lucky.
[11:28] <infinity> I'm hoping to see reasonable DSL speeds here within a year or so.
[11:29] <chmj> that a lot off bandwidth
[11:29] <Mithrandir> not my fault.  They're upgrading the DSL for free once in a while ATM.
[11:29] <infinity> I miss my old 7Mbps DSL in Calgary..
[11:29] <chmj> Mithrandir, what country u in ?
[11:29] <Mithrandir> I ordered 2Mbit which then went to 2.2, 2.4, 2.6, then 4
[11:29] <Mithrandir> chmj: Norway.
[11:29] <infinity> They claim we'll get ADSL2 and ADSL2+ (14Mbps and 28Mbps, I think) here within a year or so.
[11:29] <Mithrandir> infinity: that's decent enough
[11:29] <infinity> Personally, I can't wait.
[11:29] <chmj> Mithrandir, ahh, the land off lots and lots of bandwidth
[11:30] <infinity> Anyhow.  Groceries.    It's not the kind of cheap I was used to in Canada, but it's reasonable for around here.
[11:31] <Mithrandir> infinity: heh, around 20AUD more than I pay for my 4Mbit unlimited.
[11:31] <Mithrandir> fabbione: the new driver and i386 worked, at least
[11:32] <fabbione> Mithrandir: ah good to know
[11:33] <Mithrandir> fabbione: nah, because then the bug is mine. :-P
[11:33] <fabbione> that too :)
[11:33] <fabbione> infinity: unpacked kernel is like 500MB !
[11:33] <fabbione> ahhaha
[11:33] <fabbione> 41764 -rw-r--r--   1 root root 42717184 Jun  7 11:33 initrd.img-2.6.12-1-686-dbg
[11:34] <mjg59> Hahahahahaha
[11:34] <Mithrandir> *chuckle*
[11:34] <mjg59> fabbione: I think something very odd has happened there
[11:34] <Mithrandir> 42 MB initrd! Rock!
[11:34] <Mithrandir> does it come with a free 1GB memory module too?
[11:34] <fabbione> mjg59: with all _DEBUG configs turned on
[11:35] <fabbione> i will try to rebuild it
[11:39] <fabbione> time to get some food
[12:40] <Mithrandir> oddbjoh: fabbione it still blows up with latest upstream.
[12:45] <fabbione> Mithrandir: also on i386?
[12:45] <fabbione> or only on amd64?
[12:45] <Mithrandir> fabbione: I didn't try very long on i386.
[12:46] <Mithrandir> loads and loads of warnings while compiling on amd64.
[12:47] <fabbione> Mithrandir: no shit..
[01:16] <fabbione> mjg59: i did the rebuild.. it's 147MB
[01:16] <fabbione> so no -dbg by default
[01:22] <jbailey> g'm all.
[01:23] <Mithrandir> hi jeff
[01:23] <fabbione> hey jb
[01:30] <mjg59> Hmm. Something is very odd on this machine.
[01:30] <mjg59> PCI is basically broken after suspend/resume
[01:31] <jbailey> PCI devices are overrated.
[01:36] <jbailey> fabbione: Got time for me, or do you need to wait for a bit?
[01:36] <fabbione> jbailey: yes in 5 minutes i will be completely your :)
[01:36] <jbailey> Excellent.  I'll afk for 5 then.
[01:46] <infinity> fabbione : FWIW, Sam's patch also fixed the kallsyms bug.
[01:47] <fabbione> infinity: cool
[01:51] <fabbione> jbailey: ready to start?
[02:00] <jbailey> fabbione: Yup, back now.
[02:00] <fabbione> i was almost ready to go again :)
[02:02] <fabbione> so what are we going to hack?
[02:05] <chmj> i was gonn ask that
[02:09] <jbailey> fabbione: making make-kpkg or whatever the piece is flexible enough to do mkinitramfs as well as mkinitrd
[02:09] <fabbione> jbailey: ok than we are talking about kernel-package postinst files that are installed in the linux-image postinstalls
[02:10] <jbailey> fabbione: Lovely.
[02:10] <jbailey> I'm glad you know where all that crap is.  My brain started to go square while reading make-kpkg
[02:12] <fabbione> there are a few files that make use of mkinitrd
[02:12] <fabbione> or call it
[02:13] <fabbione> for what i can see we need to modify image.preinst and image.postinst
[02:13] <jbailey> Are they all after /etc/kernel-img.conf has been sourced?
[02:14] <fabbione> i am checking...
[02:14] <jbailey> If yes, we can just do ramdisk = /usr/sbin/mkinitrd, and then refer to "${ramdisk}"
[02:15] <fabbione> jbailey: for the preinstall 1) source the config and check the path to mkinitrd
[02:15] <fabbione> i guess the call happens later on
[02:16] <fabbione> probably only in postinst
[02:16] <fabbione> preinstall looks more like a sanity check before messing around
[02:16] <jbailey> MAkes sense.  No sense unpacking the kernel for 30 minutes on an m68k box if it's setup poorly.
[02:18] <fabbione> right
[02:18] <fabbione> the postinst creates the image and does all the work of checking/unchecking
[02:20] <fabbione> jbailey: we definetely want to make the change as smooth as possible and configurable
[02:20] <jbailey> Right.
[02:20] <jbailey> I can make the initramfs args the same as the initrd ones, that's easy enough.
[02:21] <fabbione> jbailey: i think we shouldn't get crazy to make the same
[02:21] <fabbione> but if you think that the args can be the same
[02:21] <fabbione> it's even easier
[02:21] <jbailey> I think it sounds less miserable than making the interface from the postinst configurable. =)
[02:22] <jbailey> Yeah, there isn't a problem.
[02:22] <fabbione> uh that's easy enough :)
[02:22] <fabbione> also because we want to get these changes upstream
[02:22] <fabbione> we don't want to blindly replace mkinitrd, do we?
[02:22] <fabbione> or we want?
[02:22] <jbailey> Well, that's why I'm thinking with a variable
[02:23] <jbailey> If we call it as ${ramdisk}, where the default is /usr/sbin/mkinitrd
[02:23] <jbailey> I will override it during my development here as /usr/sbin/mkinitramfs
[02:23] <jbailey> And when it's time to switch, we just change the default, and what the Depends: line has.
[02:23] <fabbione> that's more complicate than my solution :)
[02:24] <fabbione> well actually... why do we need to touch kernel postinstall at all???
[02:24] <fabbione> let's make it in a very simpler way
[02:25] <fabbione> 1) make mkramfsthingy to accept the same options as mkinitrd
[02:26] <fabbione> 2) upload a mkinitrd package with the wrapper in place of mkinitrd
[02:26] <fabbione> (and rename mkinitrd as mkinitrd.whatever)
[02:26] <jbailey> And then alternatives it?
[02:26] <fabbione> 3) upload ramfsthingy with the config file for the wrapper
[02:26] <fabbione> no.. the wrapper will read the config file and use mkinitrd or the other one
[02:26] <jbailey> Oh ugh.
[02:26] <jbailey> This is simpler?
[02:27] <fabbione> at this point all the changes are done outside the kernel
[02:27] <fabbione> yes
[02:27] <fabbione> becuase you change the default in the config file and you are done
[02:27] <fabbione> when you want to kill mkinitrd, you just do it, changing the default and removing the mkinitrd.orig
[02:27] <fabbione> and you didn't touch any of the other packages
[02:28] <fabbione> it's all done at a lower level that the kernel doesn't give a rat ass about :)))
[02:28] <jbailey> I think we're talking about a 2 line change to the kernel postinst, though.
[02:28] <fabbione> jbailey: it's a 2 line changes that are objects of other variables...
[02:29] <fabbione> first we need to change kernel-package
[02:29] <jbailey> 3 line.
[02:29] <jbailey> my $ramdisk = "/usr/sbin/mkinitrd"; # initrd generating program
[02:29] <fabbione> the configs in kernel-packages can be overridden by the user and that affects also kernel postinstall
[02:29] <fabbione> + upload the kernel with the new postinstalls
[02:30] <jbailey> $ramdisk = "$1" if /ramdisk\s*=\s*(\S+)/ig;
[02:30] <fabbione> and your packages to make all the above working :)
[02:30] <jbailey> And change the line that contains "mkinitrd" to '$ramdisk'
[02:30] <jbailey> And the solution of futzing with the postinst means that anyone can change this at a later tim.
[02:31] <jbailey> Otherwise mkinitrd has to grow a wrapper, has to analyse a foreign config file and there's no future flexibility.
[02:31] <jbailey> Like in case the yaird folks want to make it possible to use their setup under Debian.
[02:31] <fabbione> hte configfile only has one entry... mkinitrd.real = true|false
[02:32] <jbailey> Ugh  You mean use an extra config file?
[02:32] <fabbione> it doesn't need to use a foreign config file
[02:32] <jbailey> I think that's wrong.
[02:32] <jbailey> I think it needs to be in kernel-img.conf
[02:32] <jbailey> Otherwise people are having to look in yet another place for this.
[02:32] <jbailey> And there's still  no flexibility
[02:32] <fabbione> that is right, but you said you needed this for testing, didn't you?
[02:32] <jbailey> So it would wind up having to parse it out, and forces us to keep the mkinitrd name.
[02:32] <fabbione> or do you want to go directly for final solution?
[02:33] <jbailey> Right, but why not make it flexible enough to do more when it appears to be a 3 line change in one file. =)
[02:33] <fabbione> because take into account that a change to kernel-package might not go into debian :)
[02:33] <jbailey> I'll NMU it in if I need to.
[02:33] <jbailey> =)
[02:33] <jbailey> initramfs is coming to town there too.
[02:33] <jbailey> As is yaird
[02:33] <fabbione> jbailey: that'd be Manoj's toy :)
[02:33] <jbailey> (I will likely sponsor)
[02:33] <jbailey> I haven't had NMU wars with someone in ages. =)
[02:35] <fabbione> hmm ok
[02:35] <fabbione> if you prefer that way we can do it
[02:35] <jbailey> I'mve pinged manoj to check with him.
[02:35] <fabbione> i really don't mind
[02:36] <jbailey> But for 6 lines of changes (including the preinst check), it seems... excessive to add a new config file and a wrapper and all that.
[02:36] <fabbione> sure i understand your point
[02:36] <fabbione> i was considering the option to keep all the initrd/ramfs creation stuff outside of kernel build-deps and depends...
[02:37] <fabbione> that will also require the ramfs to Depends: on kernel-package
[02:37] <fabbione> that is actually only a build-dep for the kernel
[02:38] <jbailey> hmm.
[02:38] <jbailey> forgot about the depends: thing.
[02:38] <fabbione> specially if you want it configurable
[02:39] <jbailey> hmmhmmhm
[02:39] <jbailey> Well, I suppose that could be done with provides on our side.
[02:40] <fabbione> uh?????????
[02:40] <fabbione> if you want /etc/kernel-img.conf you want kernel-package
[02:40] <fabbione> that right now is only a b-d
[02:40] <fabbione> with your change it needs to be a depends
[02:41] <fabbione> if not for linux-image, it needs to be for the ramfs package
[02:41] <fabbione> for linux-image is enough it's unpacked and the config there
[02:42] <jbailey> Sorry, lagging a second from the phone..
[02:43] <fabbione> sure
[02:43] <fabbione> don't worry
[02:44] <fabbione> i am preparing 1.3 for upload
[02:44] <fabbione> just to get ppc64 to boot and i386 to build :)
[02:46] <fabbione> brb
[02:47] <jbailey> Umm.
[02:47] <jbailey> Okay, I don't think your statemenet about kernel-img.conf coming from kernel-package is true.
[02:47] <jbailey> I think it's placed there by d-i.
[02:47] <jbailey> If it's not there, the kernel will refuse to install, since it won't have do_initrd = Yes
[02:52] <fabbione> dpkg -c /mirrors/ubuntu/pool/main/k/kernel-package/kernel-package_8.135ubuntu2_all.deb
[02:52] <fabbione> -rw-r--r-- root/root       965 2004-11-17 17:33:32 ./etc/kernel-pkg.conf
[02:52] <fabbione> oh kernel-img.conf
[02:52] <jbailey> =)
[02:52] <fabbione> hell i was looking at the wrong file
[02:53] <fabbione> which package provides kernel-img.conf?
[02:53] <jbailey> Nothing does.
[02:53] <fabbione> kernel-package: /usr/share/doc/kernel-package/examples/sample.kernel-img.conf
[02:53] <fabbione> kernel-package has the manpage and so on
[02:53] <fabbione> but not the config file
[02:54] <jbailey> asking Kamion in #u-d
[02:59] <zul> yo
[03:00] <fabbione> hey zul
[03:00] <fabbione> zul: i have a bad news
[03:00] <zul> hmm?
[03:00] <fabbione> we need to revert the -dbg stuff
[03:00] <fabbione> just the 686 image is like 147MB
[03:00] <fabbione>   * Do not build -dbg flavours automatically since images are huges, but still
[03:00] <fabbione>     provide configs in debian/config/debugging/$flavour for the users.
[03:01] <fabbione> that's the best we can do :(
[03:01] <zul> thats fine..
[03:02] <zul> less work for me then
[03:02] <fabbione> btw 12rc6 is out
[03:02] <zul> goody
[03:03] <zul> heh...it seems like everything i do is dropped ;(
[03:04] <fabbione> zul: it wasn't really an option to push more than a GB of data on each kernel upload
[03:04] <fabbione> sorry..
[03:04] <fabbione> i didn't expect them to be so big
[03:04] <zul> i know..i said that tongue in cheek
[03:07] <jbailey> fabbione: rc6 should contain the module information that you told me about, yes? =)
[03:08] <fabbione> jbailey: yes it does
[03:08] <jbailey> w00t
[03:08] <fabbione> jbailey: so if you want to go ahead and change kernel-package is fine for me
[03:08] <jbailey> fabbione: What I was thinking of for the build-dep, is that I could make mkinitrd Provides: kernel-ramdisk
[03:08] <fabbione> jbailey: that will be tomorrow's stuff
[03:09] <jbailey> fabbione: For now if you depend on mkinitrd | kernel-ramdisk, and change it later to initramfs | kernel-ramdisk that might solve the problem.
[03:09] <fabbione> Depends: initrd-tools (>= 0.1.78ubuntu1), coreutils | fileutils (>= 4.0), module-init-tools (>= 0.9.13)
[03:10] <fabbione> jbailey: can't the 2 packages co-exist?
[03:10] <fabbione> ok.. hold on..
[03:10] <fabbione> let's make a point here
[03:10] <jbailey> Sure...
[03:10] <fabbione> are we doing all this config stuff only for testing??
[03:10] <jbailey> It's not a conflicts, it's just to make sure you have something providing it.
[03:10] <fabbione> or is it going to be the final solution?
[03:11] <fabbione> because given that NOBODY owns /etc/kernel-img.conf
[03:11] <jbailey> I'd like it to remain forever to allow some flexibility.
[03:11] <fabbione> i am really unhappy of something mangling it
[03:11] <jbailey> nobody owns it, but you're the only one using it.
[03:11] <fabbione> given that we don't have the previous state of the config file
[03:11] <fabbione> jbailey: are you sure?
[03:11] <fabbione> i am one of the package using it
[03:11] <fabbione> we are not sure i am the only one
[03:12] <fabbione> also.. who is going to mangle it?
[03:12] <fabbione> to switch default?
[03:12] <jbailey> I haven't encountered anything else using it, and the name suggests that it's for you.
[03:12] <jbailey> No, nothing should ever need to mangle it.
[03:12] <jbailey> That's why everything just defaults to initrd-tools for now.
[03:12] <fabbione> so if you make it configurable, how are we supposed to switch default?
[03:12] <fabbione> if the default is in the config?
[03:12] <jbailey> We just change the default when no configuration is provided.
[03:12] <jbailey> Default doesn't go in the config.
[03:12] <fabbione> ok
[03:14] <fabbione> so let's summarize the steps:
[03:15] <fabbione> 1) change kernel-package/kernel/postinst to look for that ramdisk var
[03:15] <fabbione> 2) upload initrd-tools to provide kernel-ramdisk
[03:16] <fabbione> 3) switch the images to Depends: initrd-tools | kernel-ramdisk
[03:16] <fabbione> 4) test test test
[03:16] <fabbione> 5) switch linux-image Depends: to initramfs | kernel-ramdisk
[03:17] <fabbione> even if i really don't see the point in the kernel-ramdisk thingy
[03:17] <fabbione> we could just switch the default and that's it
[03:18] <fabbione> or perhaps you want to have kernel-ramdisk Provided by both initramfs and initrd-tools preferring one of them?
[03:25] <fabbione> jbailey: are you still around?
[03:25] <fabbione> i need to stop soon
[03:25] <fabbione> i am tired to death
[03:25] <jbailey> fabbione: Right.  The only advantage of the kernel ram,disk stuff
[03:25] <jbailey> is flexibility.
[03:25] <jbailey> I'm not too worried about that.
[03:25] <fabbione> ok
[03:25] <jbailey> The config file on its own would make me happy.
[03:26] <jbailey> I'll ping manoj to figure out how likely it is that he'll accept it.
[03:26] <fabbione> do you want to start with kernel-package?
[03:26] <jbailey> Yes.
[03:26] <fabbione> ok
[03:26] <jbailey> Mind if I do the hackery and upload?
[03:26] <fabbione> not at all
[03:26] <fabbione> go ahead :)
[03:26] <jbailey> Lovely.
[03:26] <jbailey> I'll try to push it into Debian sanely so that you can just sync again.
[03:27] <fabbione> i don't care who uploads my package, until i know who is working on them and why :)
[03:27] <fabbione> meh kernel-package is desynced anyway
[03:27] <fabbione> i did try to talk with Manoj unsuccessfully for a few days now
[03:27] <jbailey> Yup.  Ilike to check to make sure I'm not running over other work that's being done.
[03:27] <fabbione> well there are the changes to make powerpc64 a buildable image :)
[03:27] <jbailey> If he doesn't reply, it's easy.  I NMU in Debian because of unresponsive maintainer.
[03:28] <fabbione> jbailey: not all ubuntu changes should go in Debian
[03:28] <jbailey> No, just this one.
[03:28] <jbailey> I know you're trying to keep it the same.
[03:28] <fabbione> exactly
[03:28] <fabbione> but for ubuntu go ahead and do it...
[03:29] <fabbione> so we can test the solution and propose it to Manoj as "tested and it works"
[03:29] <jbailey> Cool.  I'll get that in by the end of my day.
[03:29] <fabbione> perfect
[03:29] <jbailey> This is supposed to be my support day, so I'll be writing specs today.
[03:29] <jbailey> Perhaps I'll wake up the laptop and do so on the roof deck.
[03:29] <fabbione> jbailey: poing 1 and 2 is your stuff :)
[03:29] <fabbione> i will do point 3 in prepartion with 12rc6
[03:29] <fabbione> that would be my tomorrow
[03:30] <jbailey> I'll just do point 1 for today.
[03:30] <jbailey> I'm not fussed about the kernel-ramdisk bit for now.
[03:30] <fabbione> ok
[03:30] <jbailey> I haven't thought that part through completely.
[03:30] <jbailey> I've only thought through the config file.
[03:31] <fabbione> ok well.. there is always the option to upload an ramfs that Conflicts/Provides mkinitrd
[03:31] <jbailey> And it solves my immediate need that all my systems should be running initramfs' now to make sure I'm testing enough.
[03:31] <fabbione> just for the testing time
[03:31] <jbailey> Can't, kernel-packages have a versioned depends.
[03:31] <jbailey> The provides lose out.
[03:31] <fabbione> ah crap
[03:31] <fabbione> ok
[03:31] <fabbione> well let
[03:32] <fabbione> well let's go trough point 1/3 asap
[03:32] <fabbione> so you get an easy working environment
[03:32] <fabbione> we can rethink the other bits later
[03:32] <jbailey> initrd and initramfs coexist.
[03:32] <jbailey> So there's no fuss.  I don't care for now what gets depended upon until we switch.
[03:32] <jbailey> That's why I'm content to leave it alone for my testing.
[03:32] <fabbione> oky
[03:33] <fabbione> i guess i am off
[03:33] <fabbione> i might pass by later
[03:33] <jbailey> Thanks for staying up for me, Fabio.  g'd evening!
[03:34] <fabbione> no problem dude
[03:34] <fabbione> it's just that today i am more tired than usual
[03:34] <fabbione> otherwise i would have done the implementation with you
[03:35] <jbailey> I think I've actually finished the implementation now, I just need to test.
[05:08] <zul> fabbione: did you put up rc6?
[05:33] <jbailey> zul: He said that was tomorrow's work.
[05:43] <zul> ah ok
[07:14] <zul> there is a cc meeting today isnt there?
[09:47] <zul> i hate dealing with recuriters
[10:31] <fabbione> zul: i will start 12rc6 tomorrow..
[10:31] <fabbione> i am off to bed now
[10:35] <zul> ok
[11:25] <lamont__> mjg59: ping


[12:10] <bobweaver> ping popey
[12:10] <bobweaver> who do you know that is in canonical that is in charge of community development that IS NOT jono. <wont talk to me
[12:10] <bobweaver> still trying to get 5 year plan down
[12:15] <jussi> bobweaver: dholbach could be a good person to contact.
[12:16] <bobweaver> thanks jussi
[12:17] <bobweaver> off to motu
[12:18] <popey> bobweaver: what do you mean by "won't talk to me"?
[12:19] <popey> do you mean "hasn't responded to my emails yet"?
[12:19] <bobweaver> popey,  kinda  more IRC and what not "not talking to me is harsh"
[12:20] <bobweaver> but I did ask on irc when actiive and was ignored and waited like 6 hrs
[12:20] <bobweaver> not a biggi
[12:20] <bobweaver> BUt
[12:20] <popey> whats the specific question?
[12:20] <popey> he gets a lot of mail/irc traffic
[12:21] <bobweaver> How do I make money selling Ubuntu advantage ?
[12:21] <bobweaver> I know that there use to be % thing
[12:21] <popey> i dont know the answer to that, that's a question for someone other than jono tbh
[12:21] <bobweaver> not sure if it is still a option  but I have alot stores lined up (one today) and would also like to make some $ for the time that I spend doing this
[12:22] <bobweaver> also how to get canonical more involded in my 5 year plan
[12:22] <popey> so the way I think most people do it is they sell their own support services
[12:22] <popey> and then buy their own ubuntu advantage
[12:22] <popey> so they are 1st/2nd line support
[12:23] <popey> and use Ubuntu Advantage as 3rd line support
[12:23] <bobweaver> kinda like a catalyst. cool
[12:23] <popey> bobweaver: https://forms.canonical.com/sales/
[12:23] <popey> linked from http://www.canonical.com/enterprise-services/ubuntu-advantage/trial
[12:24] <popey> suggests you get in touch
[12:24] <popey> however, I'd reset your expectations to not anticipate an answer within a matter of a few hours
[12:24] <bobweaver> how about 3 days ?
[12:24] <bobweaver> :)
[12:25] <popey> i think some of the team are in the UK
[12:25] <popey> we have two public holidays this week
[12:26] <popey> today and tomorrow
[12:26] <bobweaver> popey,  always a pleasure fine sir. I hope that this is all going to come together and that The Ubuntu street team and also Loco can match what is going on in china here in the states
[12:26] <popey> np, anytime
[12:26] <bobweaver> thanks for the tips on the holidays
[12:26] <popey> np
[12:27] <bobweaver> I am trying like crazy to change the world here I think that it is going to work
[12:27] <bobweaver> one store at a time
[12:27] <bobweaver> support is the over all binding point IMHO
[13:59] <bobweaver> ping popey
[14:00] <bobweaver> sorry busy today :)
[14:01] <bobweaver> would you support me in this effort ? To get Ubuntu into stores In other words can I use you as a reference in my letter too Canonical
[14:05] <popey> bobweaver: define "support" :D
[14:05] <bobweaver> sure
[14:07] <bobweaver> so I just got off the phone with David Levin he told me to fill out a email that he is going to hand off to other people at canonical . it is all about getting Ubuntu into stores here in the USA like calling them up setting up appointments and what not hang on here is a good example
[14:07] <popey> I dont think you need my support for that
[14:08] <popey> David is better placed there
[14:08] <popey> I don't work in that team.
[14:08] <bobweaver> We start out by having the "Core Team" Make a list off all the local stores that operate in a town hands that off to the "Sales Team". The sales team fill's out spreed sheets about town & shops (see example).The sales team then hands this Documention of to the "Phones Team". The phone team calls shops/stores set up appoment to present Ubuntu and mark on spread sheets acordingly. The Phone Team then  hands the documention back to the core
[14:08] <bobweaver> team. The Core Team then assigns a member of the "meeters & greaters team" to go to these appoments showing store Owners how to save money and carry Ubuntu in a safe and relible way. Using canoical's 5 golden rules method. The meeter and greater signs new client, sets up a training session for store employees and all staff. Documents all of this and sends back to the Core Team. Core Team then contacts Conicocail Too inform them that there
[14:08] <bobweaver>  is a new client, Also sending all documention That the street team has gathered. You may look at a flow chart for this process located here http://ubuntustreetteam.tk/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/intostores-UBST.png.
[14:10] <bobweaver> It is about is bobweaver  qualified to be a ubuntu advantage contact/seller
[20:32] <daker-cloud> hello guys
[20:32] <daker-cloud> do we have a ppa yet ?
[20:45] <mhall119> daker-cloud: not yet
[20:45] <daker-cloud> :(
[20:46] <mhall119> daker-cloud: the old code is going away, so we're going to start from a branch of lp:unity
[20:46] <daker-cloud> i want a live usb image now!!!!
[20:46] <mhall119> bobweaver: have you spoken to Jay about working on Nux?
[20:47] <mhall119> daker-cloud: the current TV code is identical to the current Unity code, so you technically can ;
[20:51] <bobweaver> mhall119,  no I have not I stared looking at the library and what not and learning the structure
[20:51] <bobweaver> mhall119,  I have been real busy with the sore stuff
[20:51] <mhall119> store?
[20:51] <bobweaver> yea I have stated a movement to get 100 stores to carry Ubuntu in 100 days
[20:52] <bobweaver> I have 14
[20:52] <bobweaver> in last couple of days
[20:52] <bobweaver> mhall119, there is a iso image that is available  as a testing platform
[20:53] <bobweaver> that I made but I have had one person say that it does not work to install
[20:53] <mhall119> bobweaver: where?
[20:53] <mhall119> bobweaver: this is an ISO for TV?
[20:53] <bobweaver> yea
[20:53] <bobweaver> it has gnome fall back also
[20:53] <bobweaver> unity seems to be broken but there is sessions manager for tv that works with lens that I plug in
[20:54] <bobweaver> getting address can rember what I called the iso file Oo
[20:55] <mhall119> daker-cloud: ^^ you might be interested in that
[20:55] <daker-cloud> shoot bobweaver
[20:56] <daker-cloud> bobweaver: where is the iso ?
[20:56] <bobweaver> daker-cloud,  you know that the iso is for testing only right
[20:56] <bobweaver> daker-cloud,  can I get your LP page ?
[20:56] <daker-cloud> yes
[20:56] <daker-cloud> ~daker
[20:56] <bobweaver> thanks looking now
[20:57] <daker-cloud> brb
[20:57] <bobweaver> Signed Ubuntu Code of Conduct:
[20:57] <bobweaver> Yes
[20:57] <bobweaver> you are good to go will pm you
[20:57] <bobweaver> mhall119,  if you want iso to o ?
[20:57] <bobweaver> sorry do you want iso also ?
[20:59] <mhall119> bobweaver: yeah, I assume I can run it in virtualbox
[21:00] <bobweaver> yea plz do run in Virtual envo
[21:00] <bobweaver> mhall < is LP
[21:00] <mhall119> mhall119 on lp
[21:00] <bobweaver> Signed Ubuntu Code of Conduct:
[21:00] <bobweaver> Yes
[21:00] <bobweaver> good to go
[21:01] <bobweaver> mhall119,  check pm
[21:01] <bobweaver> live boot works
[21:02] <bobweaver> but ...
[21:02] <bobweaver> mhall119,  and daker-cloud    ! IMPORANT  !  best to install if you are going to install  right from the start menu and NOT from a liuve session
[21:03] <bobweaver> meaning when you  boot the thing go straight to "Install"
[21:03] <bobweaver> If you want to install
[21:03] <bobweaver> I have seen it fail the other way
[21:06] <bobweaver> sometimes the lens and scope for youtube fail  they are under  /usr/lib/unity-lens-youtube /unity0lens-youtube-daemon  and /usr/share/unity-scope-youtube/unity-scope-youtube-daemon
[21:07] <bobweaver> daker-cloud,  and mhall119  please *try*  to stay active and let us know what you think what can be changed what would be nice ect
[21:08] <bobweaver> j/k do what ever yoiu like :P
[21:08] <mhall119> bobweaver: sure, I'm setting up a new laptop, so I won't be playing with it for a couple days
[21:08] <bobweaver> cool
[21:09] <bobweaver> I am going to be re-writing the whole thing very very soon
[21:09] <bobweaver> using mythtv as a sortof backend
[21:09] <bobweaver> tgm4883,  showed me his system and I have to say it is awesome
[21:10] <tgm4883> I probably should have recorded that and put it on youtube
[21:10] <bobweaver> yeah you should have
[21:11] <bobweaver> I have been kinda slowly tgm4883  picking away at the source code for myth
[21:11] <bobweaver> should not be that hard
[21:11] <bobweaver> was super impressed when I learned that one can name the framework that they use for themes
[21:11] <bobweaver> aka QT
[21:11] <bobweaver> or what ever
[21:13] <daker-cloud> bobweaver: sure
[21:13] <bobweaver> daker-cloud,  if you could and you do not have too please send me any and all feed back will just make better
[21:14] <bobweaver> would also like you to know that there is a temp hack in there for Icons
[21:14] <daker-cloud> sure sure
[21:14] <bobweaver> so that I could get icons for youttube groove shark and google contacts to connect
[21:14] <bobweaver> see video here
[21:14] <bobweaver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-sUVVvRdKE
[21:15] <bobweaver> as you can see there is Alot more features
[21:16] <bobweaver> I just have to implant a stupid case statement  but with the change over of the whole framework there is no point to do that just yet
[21:18] <bobweaver> just to get some company to sign with Ubuntu One for video store and guide data
[21:19] <bobweaver> wonder who to ask ?
[21:19] <bobweaver> then can plug all that jazz in
[21:19] <daker-cloud> ok time for me to go watche E10 Game of thrones :)
[21:22] <bobweaver> daker-cloud,  that is one thing that I would like to work on  is a emulator platform
[21:22] <bobweaver> aka
[21:22] <bobweaver> pcsx 1 and 2  muppet jpsp
[21:22] <bobweaver> all the emulators in one spot but pcsx2 is very very touchy
[21:23] <bobweaver> likes to crash
[21:23] <bobweaver> and not even work sometimes lol
[21:25] <bobweaver> mhall119,  what is Jay IRC nick ?
[21:25] <bobweaver> if you know thanks :)


[21:09] <teolemon> Hi All,
[21:09] <teolemon> During the week ending today (6/16/2013), work on the DDTP progressed like this :
[21:09] <teolemon> For the top 10 teams, the valiant Russian team arrived first with 601 strings translated !
[21:09] <teolemon> Bosnian: 94687 untranslated strings (0 strings change W/W)
[21:09] <teolemon> Spanish: 71907 untranslated strings (0 strings change W/W)
[21:09] <teolemon> German: 58093 untranslated strings (-248 strings change W/W)
[21:09] <teolemon> Brazilian Portuguese: 83801 untranslated strings (0 strings change W/W)
[21:09] <teolemon> French: 51040 untranslated strings (-324 strings change W/W)
[21:09] <teolemon> Russian: 74290 untranslated strings (-601 strings change W/W)
[21:09] <teolemon> Ukrainian: 82498 untranslated strings (0 strings change W/W)
[21:10] <teolemon> Turkish: 92681 untranslated strings (-136 strings change W/W)
[21:10] <teolemon> Italian: 56437 untranslated strings (0 strings change W/W)
[21:10] <teolemon> Polish: 86514 untranslated strings (0 strings change W/W)
[21:10] <teolemon> Sincerely,
[21:10] <teolemon> The DDTP Bot


[07:08] <Noskcaj> does anyone actually use the xubuntu twitter account anymore? why can't we have it tweeting daily, a similar issue affects the facebook page
[18:38] <Noskcaj> does anyone actually use the xubuntu twitter account anymore? why can't we have it tweeting daily, a similar issue affects the facebook page
[18:38] <pleia2> Noskcaj: because we don't have enough volunteers to maintain it daily :)
[18:39] <pleia2> they were both set up to only cross-post announcements and blog posts, and then other stuff as we have time
[18:39] <Noskcaj> ok
[18:40] <pleia2> Noskcaj: volunteering?
[18:41] <pleia2> (though we would ask to get to know you a bit more before handing over the keys to it :))
[18:41] <Noskcaj> pleia2, yeah, i could try and post some stuff, at least make it seems active. i'm suggesting we make a wiki page or something where people can put a quick tps that i could post on the xubuntu twitter
[18:42] <pleia2> you're welcome to mention things in here
[18:42] <pleia2> knome and I both have access, so just let one of us know
[18:47] <Noskcaj> ok, i'm suggesting that you link news pages and your own blogs (if it's xubuntu related) on the page, that would at least give it a volume of posts
[18:47] <pleia2> we do link to news articles when we add them to the press section of the website, have any new ones to suggest?
[18:49] <Noskcaj> now i actually look, there aren't many
[18:50] <Noskcaj> although some stuff from http://xubuntugeek.blogspot.com.au/ couldn't hurt
[18:50] <pleia2> see, I didn't even know about that site :)
[18:51] <Noskcaj> ok :) xubuntu is doing a better job than most Ubuntu teams for advertising itself
[18:52] <Noskcaj> does anyone have access to the FB page though?
[19:34] <pleia2> Noskcaj: thanks :) I know we can do better, and appreciate your help with this
[19:34] <Noskcaj> np, maybe i will talk to phill aout lubuntu now
[19:34] <Noskcaj> *about
[20:11] <knome> Noskcaj, pleia2 should have access to most of the social media outlets. if not her, somebody from the team does
[20:11] <knome> Noskcaj, ...or if not, we should make that happen
[20:12] <pleia2> yeah, I do
[20:14] <knome> was there something that was still wip? linkedin maybe?
[20:14] <pleia2> I don't think so, linkedin is sorted
[20:14] <knome> hmm.
[20:15] <pleia2> ah, identi.ca
[20:15] <knome> yeah, that
[20:15] <pleia2> never did hear back from boredandblogging
[20:17] <Unit193> Isn't that pretty much dead?
[20:17] <Unit193> Apart from spammers, that is.
[20:18] <pleia2> yeah, I won't kill myself trying to get access, figured we'd try though since it exists
[20:18] <knome> Unit193, are you referring to identi.ca as whole or the xubuntu identica group?
[20:18] <Unit193> As a whole, but I'll drop it.
[20:18] <knome> heh
[20:48] <knome> sent him !coc and !guidelines from PM.
[20:48] <knome> or her.
[20:57] <knome> hmm.
[20:57] <knome> seems like (s)he wants us to answer questions (s)he didn't ask
[20:57] <pleia2> yeah
[20:58] <pleia2> I wish they'd just ask the question they want answered D:
[20:58] <knome> yyyup.
[20:58] <Unit193> Oh my goodness, not half as bad as one I had...
[20:58] <Unit193> But easier to ESP it.
[20:58] <pleia2> lunchtime is ending, so I'm done with this one
[20:58]  * pleia2 back2work
[20:59] <knome> hf
[21:06] <Noskcaj> is there a reason gimp is picked as the photo editor in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap , for user friendliness i think pinta would be a better option.
[21:07] <Unit193> Ehh, mono. :/
[21:07] <knome> and we're not shipping gimp either.
[21:08] <knome> and yes, the mono dependencies would bring too much overhead
[21:08] <Unit193> We might if size goes up, no?
[21:08] <knome> yup.
[21:08] <Unit193> (Note, I don't care about what FSF says, I'm just not fond of mono)
[21:09] <Noskcaj> also, what software center where you planning on using
[21:09] <Unit193> Xubuntu has always used USC.
[21:10] <Noskcaj> i know, i just hope it stays like that, LSC is terrible IMO
[21:11] <Noskcaj> https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-desktop 's milestones need updating too
[21:11] <Unit193> There are features of USC that LSC doesn't have, so I don't think it's much of an option?  (I purge it either way, sooo.)