[01:08] <cprofitt> popey: ping
[01:08] <cprofitt> like my "spongebob"?
[02:42] <mhall119> check it out, LoCo Teams Unity Lens: http://ubuntuone.com/0tZXXT69utPHv5cXNLZUPv
[02:42] <mhall119> and http://ubuntuone.com/6ylsSolQI6EUm7cObrCTcv
[02:49] <bkerensa> cool stuff
[07:20] <head_victim> mhall119: nice work
[08:14] <dholbach> good morning
[08:16] <YoBoY> bonjour
[08:16] <dholbach> salut YoBoY
[08:16] <YoBoY> thanks JanC for your mail. btw do you plan another multi-locoteams booth ? :)
[08:16] <YoBoY> comment ça va dholbach ?
[08:17] <dholbach> ça va bien - seulement un peu fatigué - et toi? ça va?
[08:18] <YoBoY> fatigué aussi :p
[08:20] <dholbach> mais la semaine prochaine je vais au Maroc :-D
[08:22] <YoBoY> cool :D
[12:15] <JanC> YoBoY: a multi-locoteam booth is fine; gives everybody more time to attend talks...  ☺
[12:21] <YoBoY> JanC: I'll add that to my todolist :). If you don't have news from us (ubuntu-fr) in January, ping us (we all are very busy lately :] )
[12:24] <JanC> YoBoY: I guess everybody is busy with the holidays if not with anything else  ;)
[12:25] <YoBoY> sure ^^
[12:25] <JanC> well, except me, I'm busy being sick at home today...  :-(
[13:27] <mhall119> morning
[13:30] <manikou> hello
[13:31] <manikou> my name is Samuel Pamphile from Martinique (French West Indies)
[13:32] <mhall119> welcome manikou
[13:33] <manikou> I'd like to make a brief presentation to the community about the integration of ubuntu in the island of Dominica during the next meeting
[13:33] <manikou> :)
[13:34] <manikou> I'd like to know if it is possible ?
[13:36] <YoBoY> Hi manikou
[13:36] <manikou> Hi YoBoY
[13:36] <YoBoY> manikou: have you received an email from huats on November the 12th ?
[13:37] <manikou> yes
[13:37] <manikou> i answer right after
[13:37] <manikou> november 13th
[13:41] <YoBoY> well... we had some alias problems lately in this period of time and I don't know if he received it. Can you resend your reply to him ? you can also add<EMAIL_ADDRESS>on copy if you want
[13:41] <YoBoY> manikou: ^
[13:41]  * YoBoY se demande pourquoi on se parle en anglais :p
[13:41] <manikou> i'm doing it right now
[13:41] <manikou> lol
[13:42] <manikou> ben oui mais c'est pour que toust le monde understand
[13:46] <YoBoY> manikou: to answer to your question, just add your item to the agenda : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda or write an email to the lococouncil
[17:59] <BigWhale> UDS will be in Oakland? How come not in Europe? :(
[17:59] <mhall119> BigWhale: cost probably
[18:01] <BigWhale> I guess I'll have to cancel my road trip and apply for sponsorship.
[20:36] <czajkowski> mhall119: olympics are also on in EU at that time could be very busy
[20:49] <mhall119> czajkowski: in London though right?  Would it make that much of a difference in the rest of europe?
[20:59] <czajkowski> yup
[20:59] <czajkowski> a lot of training grounds are being used close to UK like ireland for example
[20:59] <czajkowski> plus lots of extra tourists coming over and visiting would be a lot more
[21:35] <JanC> Belgian training grounds too indeed
[21:36] <JanC> especially the weeks before the olympics teams will be training in timezone / weather conditions not too far from those in London
[21:39] <JanC> not sure about tourists though (except for the wide London area, of course)


[21:13] <cantstanya> how did you guys let poettering win, seriously
[21:13] <cantstanya> you had it in the bag
[21:13] <cantstanya> they're dual licensed LGPLv2.1 and MIT, you're GPLv2
[21:14] <cantstanya> like how can you lose with such a lead
[21:15] <cantstanya> This is pretty much like Gary Coleman vs Mike Tyson, and gary biting his knee and some how winning
[21:16] <cantstanya> how does this even happen
[21:42] <JanC> I don't think trolling in here is going to help you...
[21:53] <cantstanya> JanC: what are you kidding me, I don't need help
[21:54] <cantstanya> I'm just curious how an upset like this can happen with upstart
[21:54] <cantstanya> Like was there even effort
[21:54] <cantstanya> Even without effort, it should have been in the bag
[21:57] <JanC> why would Debian care about LGPL vs. MIT vs. GPL licensing, as all those licenses are acceptable to them?
[21:58] <cantstanya> because GPL is the least permissive and obviously they love that, it's part of their agenda. see ICEWEASEL vs Firefox.
[21:58] <cantstanya> Oh wow I see
[21:58] <JanC> that has nothing to do with GPL vs. other licenses
[21:58] <cantstanya> huh?
[21:58] <cantstanya> are you kidding me
[21:58] <JanC> it's about trademarks
[21:59] <JanC> and Mozilla's trademark policy
[21:59] <cantstanya> that's just part of the ploy
[21:59] <cantstanya> s/'s/ reasoning is/
[23:19] <cantstanya> you guys are quitters


[14:15] <Unit193> bluesabre: BTW, I took the liberty of updating gtk-theme-config packaging some, kind of pushing it to Debian.
[14:20] <Unit193> Noskcaj: You still with us?  Interested in pushing catfish and mugshot to Debian?
[17:04] <flocculant> Unit193: as far as I am aware - lightdm isn't likely to get anything but bug fixes now - so assuming all else remains the same, we should be safe for the time being
[17:05] <flocculant> as far as ayatana - that's not something I specifically parsed for, but not seen anything else indicatorish
[17:06] <flocculant> also desktop team trello board for anyone likely to find it useful is https://trello.com/b/0T55ivzN/ubuntu-desktop-1710-cycle < ochosi bluesabre perhaps
[17:52] <Unit193> flocculant: Right, and bug fixes will hopefully be nice still.
[18:37] <xGrind> good afternoon. When will thunar be updated?
[18:47] <Unit193> What do you mean?
[18:53] <flocculant> xGrind: what are you referring to?
[18:56] <xGrind> Thunar that is in the "xenial-proposed"
[18:57] <flocculant> xGrind: when people actually do what is needed
[18:57] <xGrind> Ok :)
[18:57] <flocculant> xGrind: basically it needs people affected by the issue (bug 1679488) to test against the version in -proposed and tag it appropriately
[18:58] <flocculant> we have done our part - up to users now
[19:02] <flocculant> bluesabre: I can at least mark it for xenial after last weekend when I updated thunar and removed pcmanfm from a mate's pc
[19:04] <flocculant> bluesabre: effectively we can forget yakkety anyway ... 16.10 will reach end of life on Thursday, July 20, 2017
[19:05] <flocculant> might be worth telling users about that too


[23:49] <pleia2> so, we were supposed to have a meeting today
[23:49] <pleia2> I completely forgot (and was at the doctor when I should have been anyway)
[23:49] <pleia2> s/I/it
[23:49] <pleia2> bumping to Thursday
[23:55] <elky> Blame UDS.
[23:56] <pleia2> yeah, it was supposed to be *last* tuesday anyway
[23:56] <pleia2> then I said this tuesday, then brain fail :)


[09:06] <RikMills> sil2100 seb128: hi, can I draw your attention to this:
[09:07] <RikMills> [09:51] <sitter>  btw maybe someone can find someone to poke about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libpwquality/+bug/1834480 it's gonna be impacting plasma 5.17 when I land https://phabricator.kde.org/D22122
[13:07] <ahasenack> tjaalton: hi, around? Could you please take a quick look at this paste: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/ZzW8BG2fpm/ line 16
[13:07] <ahasenack> it seems to imply there is an invisible default /etc/sssd/sssd.conf file
[13:07] <ahasenack> I'm checking in the debian build now to compare
[13:10] <ahasenack> same in debian
[13:18] <tjaalton> ahasenack: and this is with the latest 2.2.0?
[13:18] <ahasenack> yes
[13:18] <ahasenack> the install doesn't fail
[13:18] <ahasenack> tests pass
[13:19] <ahasenack> but the socket services try to start, and fail like that
[13:19] <ahasenack> I'm wondering if they could use a ConditionFileNotEmpty
[13:19] <ahasenack> I guess fedora/rh don't see this because they don't start services by default?
[13:19] <ahasenack> I'm ready to send an email to sssd-users@
[13:20] <tjaalton> well no-one has complained about it on debian
[13:20] <tjaalton> I don't know why it thinks sssd.conf is there
[13:20] <ahasenack> it also happens there, this is the postinst output:
[13:21] <ahasenack> tjaalton: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/5cSFT4hmnJ/
[13:22] <tjaalton> so it needs sssd.conf?
[13:23] <tjaalton> I haven't used it in a while..
[13:23] <ahasenack> a few other services start
[13:23] <ahasenack> these 3
[13:23] <ahasenack>  1871 ?        Ss     0:00 /usr/sbin/sssd -i --logger=files
[13:23] <ahasenack>  1872 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/libexec/sssd/sssd_be --domain implicit_files --uid 0 --gid 0 --logger=files
[13:23] <ahasenack>  1873 ?        S      0:00  \_ /usr/libexec/sssd/sssd_nss --uid 0 --gid 0 --logger=files
[13:23] <ahasenack> probably noops
[13:24] <tjaalton> there's your nss
[13:25] <ahasenack> but sssd-nss.service stays it's disabled, is this the same?
[13:25] <ahasenack> execstart for sssd-nss.service has "ExecStart=/usr/libexec/sssd/sssd_nss ${DEBUG_LOGGER} --socket-activated"
[13:26] <tjaalton> did you have sssd running before the upgrade?
[13:26] <ahasenack> nope, fresh install in debian-sid
[13:27] <ahasenack> (same case in ubuntu)
[13:27] <ahasenack> sssd spawned sssd_nss, but there is also a systemd service file for sssd-nss
[13:28] <ahasenack> is this a case where one would choose one or the other? Either start it from the get-go, or use socket activations?
[13:29] <ahasenack> I'm thinking the default implicit config (without sssd.conf) assumes it should start, and we are at the same time trying to use socket activation, but the socket activation is a bit incompatible with this implicit ssd.conf
[13:31] <tjaalton> I need to test on a vm
[13:34] <tjaalton> sounds like it should use different defaults when starting without a conffile
[13:37] <tjaalton> or not start at all
[13:37] <ahasenack> we could add a ConditionFileNotEmpty, or whatever it's called
[13:37] <ahasenack> to the socket systemd services
[13:38] <ahasenack> but it sounds like two categories of services: the normal ones, where you just start it even if it's not used,and the socket activated ones
[13:38] <ahasenack> starting both seems wrong
[13:39] <tjaalton> socket activated ones shouldn't be "started"
[13:39] <tjaalton> so the postinst output looks weird to me
[13:42] <ahasenack> if we do nothing against it, dh_installsystemd will enable it on first install
[13:43] <tjaalton> meh, when is samba-common-bin postinst going to be fixed to not fail when smb.conf isn't around
[13:51] <ahasenack> hm, "The services' list is optional on platforms where systemd is supported, as they will either be socket or D-Bus activated when needed."
[13:53] <tjaalton> I was wrong, the socket listener is actually started and is shown by systemctl
[13:53] <tjaalton> anyway, with the conffile from examples it'll work properly, so the daemon defaults are just wrong
[13:55] <ahasenack> you mean defaults without a conffile
[13:56] <tjaalton> yep
[13:58] <tjaalton> upstream says it shouldn't start with sssd_nss
[13:58] <ahasenack> it's the same about all others
[13:59] <ahasenack> Aug 01 12:49:07 eoan-sssd2 sssd_check_socket_activated_responders[3014]: The sudo responder has been configured to be socket-activated but it's still mentioned in the services' line in /etc/sssd/sssd.conf.
[13:59] <ahasenack> sudo, for example
[13:59] <tjaalton> yes, but for the same reason
[13:59] <tjaalton> with a dummy conffile it's fine
[14:00] <ahasenack> so "services" suddenly grew a long list of defaults if there is no sssd.conf
[14:00] <tjaalton> something like that
[14:00] <ahasenack> I emailed sssd-users@
[14:00] <tjaalton> I'm talking with lslebodn
[14:00] <ahasenack> who is that?
[14:01] <ahasenack> and which channel, assuming it's irc?
[14:01] <tjaalton> #sssd
[14:01] <tjaalton> lukas slebodnik
[14:01] <tjaalton> from redhat
[14:11] <tomreyn> is 18.04.3 likely to happen today, i.e. are there known reasons making it unlikely right now (i'm aware such can come up later)?
[14:12] <tjaalton> tomreyn: no, delayed for one week
[14:12] <tomreyn> thanks tjaalton , did i miss an e-mail on this? or will there likely be one?
[14:13] <tjaalton> uh, there isn't one?
[14:13] <tomreyn> not on -announce or -release
[14:14] <tjaalton> ok then
[14:14] <tjaalton> well that's what I heard somewhere
[14:14] <tjaalton> maybe I'm wrong
[14:14] <tomreyn> i'm looking at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/
[14:14] <tomreyn> is this the right place?
[14:14] <analogical> tjaalton, how do you know that 18.04.3 is delayed for a week??
[14:15] <tjaalton> I don't
[14:15] <tjaalton> it was a rumor it seems
[14:16] <tomreyn> sorry to hear this ;)
[14:27] <tjaalton> ahasenack: so, the verdict is that socket activation just doesn't work without a conffile right now. but it doesn't actually break anything, once sssd has been configured and restarted it's all fine
[14:28] <tjaalton> trying to find where the defaults are set
[14:28] <tjaalton> should be a simple patch
[14:28] <ahasenack> should we add a ConditionFileNotEmpty?
[14:28] <ahasenack> for sssd.conf
[14:29] <tjaalton> service you mean?
[14:30] <tjaalton> sssd.service
[14:30] <ahasenack> I mean to the systemd socket files
[14:30] <ahasenack> so they won't start without a config file
[14:31] <ahasenack> sssd starts fine, albeit useless
[14:31] <tjaalton> I won't do that in debian ;)
[14:31] <ahasenack> no prior art?
[14:31] <tjaalton> looks like src/confdb/confdb_setup.c needs fixing
[14:31] <tjaalton> it's a non-issue mostly
[14:32] <tjaalton> install is noisy, that's all
[14:32] <ahasenack> and if someone checks the status output, as suggested in that output
[14:32] <ahasenack> but nothing broke, as evidenced by the tests even
[14:34] <tjaalton> I'll patch the fallback setup instead
[14:35] <ahasenack>     char fallback_cfg[] = ... <-- that bit
[14:35] <gaughen> Apologies all, the point release is delayed.
[14:35] <ahasenack> although it's not listing sudo and the others
[14:35] <gaughen> it will not happen today, there were issues found in kernel testing.
[14:35] <tjaalton> to match the patched examples/sssd.conf
[14:35] <tjaalton> ahasenack: I think socket activation breaks if services lists any of them
[14:36] <ahasenack> yes, it's one or the other
[14:36] <ahasenack> but this implicit config, when there is no config file, isn't listing sudo or the others, and they are still complaining that they were listed
[14:36] <tjaalton> the output just assumes there's a conffile with services=
[14:38] <tjaalton> tomreyn: ^ the release is in fact delayed
[14:40] <tomreyn> tjaalton, gaughen: thanks for the notice - can you say until when it'll be postponed, yet, should users check ubuntu-announce for a notice on this?
[14:41] <gaughen> tomreyn, tjaalton last I knew the plan was for next Thursday, but infinity would have the latest info has he's running the release
[14:41] <gaughen> tomreyn, I do not think that's an unreasonable expectation, apologies for dropping this on y'all at the last minute
[14:43] <tomreyn> personally i'm always happy with delays if it helps stabilizing a release.
[15:28] <tjaalton> ahasenack: patching it didn't help for some reason
[15:33] <ahasenack> tjaalton: you just dropped the services line?
[15:33] <ahasenack> in that fallback config
[15:33] <tjaalton> yes
[15:34] <tjaalton> then I created a conffile which matches the fallback, and then it works.. so looks like the checker is broken
[16:02] <tomreyn> so, since it's EOB in UK, should we expect an e-mail or other announcement about the 18.04.3 delay?
[16:03] <vorlon> there will be an email announcement; the release manager is not on UK time
[16:04] <tomreyn> great :)
[16:07] <tjaalton> ahasenack: check_socket_activated_responder() checks for the conffile, and if it doesn't exist, bails out
[16:08] <tjaalton> ahasenack: I'm currently bisecting a kernel for a regression found in 5.0, so if you have time to poke sssd further then feel free to ;)
[16:38] <LocutusOfBorg> hello, broadcast question: (I'm talking about flang): how can a package that *never* installs libomp5 in the build process runtime depend on it?
[16:38] <LocutusOfBorg>  Depends: libc6 (>= 2.29), libgcc1 (>= 1:3.0), libomp5 (>= 0.20130412)
[16:47] <ahasenack> tjaalton: thanks for the troubleshooting done so far


[03:42] <olinuxx> bye all
[12:54] <JMeK> Hi! Since I have a lot of trouble getting my bamboo-pen CTL-460 working in UbuntuStudio (it just doesn't work at all) see also this thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1582902 I have really two questions: First: is it me, is it the bamboo pen, or is it Ubuntustudio that has the bug. And second: what is a good tablet/pen wich works out of the box in Ubuntustudio? As an artist I really need a working pentablet!
[13:10] <astraljava> JMeK: Sorry, unless you are seeing any errors while applying the commands listen on the tutorial, there's hardly anything I can do as not having the same hardware.
[13:10] <astraljava> JMeK: What you can do is `lsmod | grep wacom', to ensure the module is being loaded, but that's as far as my expertise reaches. :)
[13:11] <astraljava> JMeK: Looks like many Bamboo Pen users have gotten help through that tutorial, so it doesn't look to be the hardware.
[13:31] <persia> JMeK, If `uname -m` gives "i686", you're running 32-bit (i386).
[13:36] <JMeK> persia: yes, 'uname -m' gives "i686". So now I know Iḿ running 32-bit (learning somethinng every day). What are the implications? What to do next?
[13:36] <persia> I don't have a tablet, and don't know the answer to that.  I just know that i386 kernels say "i686" and amd64 kernels say "x86_64"
[13:37] <persia> Your correspondent in the forum seemed confused.
[13:38] <JMeK> persia: thanks,  I will remember this and also pass it on to my correspondent
[16:15] <skx> am I doing something wrong? after every single kernel update, X fails and I have to reinstall the graphic card driver from console with jockey-text, I'm using nVidia restricted drivers if that matters
[16:16] <rlameiro> skx: its possible, since they are propietary kernels
[16:16] <rlameiro> and the driver needs to be compiled against each kernel version
[16:16] <skx> they're just modules and should be updated along with the kernel :\
[16:16] <rlameiro> if the driver was opensource, that wouldnt happen
[16:16] <skx> "FATAL: Module nvidia not found"
[16:16] <rlameiro> its not opensource
[16:17] <skx> it doesn't matter
[16:17] <rlameiro> they cant chip it like that
[16:17] <skx> if I can update it, so could the update tool
[16:17] <rlameiro> its a licesing issue, they can put propietary stuff on your computer without consent, even if it is an upgrade
[16:18] <rlameiro> blame Nvidia for that
[16:18] <skx> they could add a popup
[16:18] <skx> and I have already put a proprietary stuff on my computer
[16:19] <rlameiro> skx: are you using a realtime kernel?
[16:19] <skx> rlameiro, preempt
[16:20] <rlameiro> it can be because of that
[16:20] <rlameiro> maybe they only prepare propietary modules for the generic kernel
[16:20] <skx> it's because it's not being updated properly, I can install proprietary modules from nvidia by hand
[16:20] <skx> and they work with the preempt kernel
[16:20] <astraljava> skx: There this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1036788, but beware, no support whatsoever.
[16:21] <skx> thanks, astraljava, will look into that
[16:23] <rlameiro> each time you install a nvidia driver by hand, it compiles the modules against the kernel you are using
[16:23] <rlameiro> it does it automatically
[16:24] <astraljava> skx: Here's another: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=835573
[16:26] <skx> they all seem a little old, but thanks, I'll do that
[16:27] <astraljava> skx: I don't think the principle has changed, though.
[16:29] <holstein> In FalkTX' lucid main ppa is a patched nvidia driver which works fine
[16:29] <holstein> for me on Alessio's realtime kernel in a ubuntustudio 10.04 64bit
[16:29] <holstein> environment.
[16:30] <holstein> ^from the mailing list
[16:30] <holstein> relevant?
[16:35] <astraljava> Hmm, there aren't all the drivers that can be found from nVidia's website, so I'm not sure if all types of cards are supported. But a good call nonetheless.
[16:37] <astraljava> What is the reason there's a huge amount of packages there, wouldn't it be reasonable to get those into main repos?
[16:37] <astraljava> Oh, KXstudio, right?
[16:38] <rlameiro> yeap


[00:47] <jjesse> when did the history channel stop being about actual history?
[00:51] <jjesse> see my current g+ rantings about this
[00:57] <Blazeix> back whenever Deadliest Catch and Ice Road Truckers started
[00:57] <Blazeix> then it sort of collapsed into ghost stories
[00:58] <jjesse> this one is about how aliens caused an ice age to get rid of the dinosaurs, impregnated humans and jesus was an alien
[01:06] <brousch> snap-l: ug, this nanowar music is horrible
[01:06] <brousch> i hates it
[01:16] <rick_h_> brousch: Error (404)
[01:16] <rick_h_> jjesse: about a year ago
[01:20] <rick_h_> jcastro: to raise it you press in on the round button of the arm at the joint
[01:20] <rick_h_> when you press it in, the arm will swing free and you can move it in stock increments
[01:20] <jcastro> man
[01:20] <jcastro> I must seriously be weak
[01:20] <rick_h_> this is what it doesn't give for the more expensive onces
[01:20] <rick_h_> it only moves in set amounts and only so far
[01:21] <rick_h_> yea, you've got to press them in
[01:22] <jcastro> man
[01:22] <jcastro> I might need to take the monitor off
[01:22] <jcastro> and hammer it
[01:22] <rick_h_> well, just lift on it
[01:22] <jcastro> even pulling up and mooshing it with all my strength
[01:22] <rick_h_> so the weight of the monitor isn't on it
[01:23] <rick_h_> once you get it on one you'll do it
[01:23] <rick_h_> it took me a few my first time if I recall
[01:23] <brousch> hm, dropbox is misbehaving
[01:23] <rick_h_> I was doing stuff like turning the monitor
[01:23] <rick_h_> so that moving the two sing arms added/reduced some vertical levels
[01:23] <rick_h_> there's some room to tweak
[01:24] <jcastro> yeah
[01:24] <jcastro> I got it on the small ones
[01:24] <jcastro> it's the 24 inch monster that's giving me heartache
[01:24] <jcastro> I might need to wait for jill so I don't overcrush something
[01:24] <brousch> rick_h_: try it now
[01:24] <jcastro> feels like a 2 person job
[01:24] <rick_h_> ah yea, isn't it limited to 23"
[01:25] <rick_h_> 24 might be stretching those limits I guess
[01:25] <rick_h_> brousch: wtf?!
[01:25] <rick_h_> brousch: you RT me too much :P
[01:25] <rick_h_> make up your own posts :P
[01:25] <brousch> hah
[01:25] <jcastro> rick_h_: oh sonofa.... my FPW weighs 22 lbs
[01:26] <jcastro> This whole time I was worried about jill's 23 being too heavy but it's fine
[01:26] <rick_h_> jcastro: ah, crazy
[01:27] <jcastro> AHA!
[01:27] <jcastro> the new 24 inch awesome dell is only .... 8.73 pounds!
[01:27] <jcastro> I think it's obvious what needs to be done here
[01:27] <jcastro> http://www.slashgear.com/dell-ultrasharp-u2412m-24-inch-ips-display-sells-for-399-26167465/
[01:27] <jcastro> you saw this right?
[01:28] <rick_h_> no, missed that.  I went through my old phone's phone book last night and transfer to g-contacts. all set to go now :)
[12:08] <rick_h_> greg-g: awesome
[12:27] <snap-l> Good morning
[12:27] <snap-l> Everyone enjoy the light show last night?
[12:27] <rick_h_> missed it
[12:28] <rick_h_> didn't know it rained until this morning
[12:28] <snap-l> We had a lot of lightning outside around 4am
[12:30] <snap-l> Yay, the coffeepot is not affected. ;)
[12:32] <rick_h_> yay
[12:33] <Wolfger> enjoyed the show this morning
[12:33] <Wolfger> oh, it would be horrible if a thunderstorm knocked out the coffee maker :-p
[12:34] <snap-l> yes, yes it would have been
[12:43] <snap-l> Wow, this ADP site for reporting time has an extremely hypnotic wait symbol
[12:46] <snap-l> Changed over to Firefox, and apparently it isn't supported (but Chrome wasn't explicitly denied)

[12:47] <Wolfger> It's freaking 2011.  Nobody is ever afflicted with blurting out compliments.
[12:57] <greg-g> that you know of, maybe they just "pass" in society and are actually really well liked by everyone
[12:57] <snap-l> "And in conclusion... NICESHOES... I think that..."
[13:06] <greg-g> :)
[13:15] <nullspace> oh wow DoD released their own linux distro
[13:19] <greg-g> but they might be violating the terms of the GPL
[13:19] <greg-g> there's a link to download an iso, but no links to the source
[13:19] <greg-g> </license nerd moment>
[13:20] <jrwren> rofl.
[13:20] <Wolfger> meh. Come back to me when you *know* they're violating the GPL
[13:20] <snap-l> Wolfger: What's the difference?
[13:20] <greg-g> Wolfger: ok, Lemme go ask for the source and when they don't respond, I'll let you know.
[13:20] <snap-l> If you know it in your heart, it must be true
[13:20] <jrwren> http://www.ubuntu.com/download <-- no link to the source.
[13:20] <jrwren> :)
[13:21] <greg-g> jrwren: :P true true
[13:21] <snap-l> that seems to be the modus operandi for the OCD license community
[13:21] <jrwren> if they have /usr/share/*/README with links the source, its GPL OK, right?
[13:21] <greg-g> there's actually been a (OMG way too long) thread on debian-legal about whether or not torrenting .isos is violating the GPL
[13:21] <jrwren> really?
[13:21] <jrwren> how in the hell is that violating the GPL?
[13:21] <greg-g> yeah, really.
[13:21] <greg-g> :(
[13:21] <greg-g> no source available
[13:22] <jrwren> sounds like the fudtastic get voiced too much
[13:22] <jrwren> b.s.
[13:22] <jrwren> source is available.
[13:22] <greg-g> so, debian has their own torrent server with all of the source code available as a torrent, but no one is downloading it
[13:22] <jrwren> sounds like them fools need a dictionary
[13:22] <greg-g> :)
[13:22] <snap-l> Because nobody needs the source in that form
[13:22] <jrwren> nor wants it.
[13:24] <snap-l> Well, what's really stupid are the folks who think they "know better" and add nothing to the conversation
[13:24] <snap-l> E-mail threads tend to go like this:
[13:24] <snap-l> 1) Semi-plausible claim
[13:25] <snap-l> 2) Several pokes, one of which might be right
[13:25] <snap-l> 3) Several more semi-plausible claims
[13:25] <snap-l> 4) Someone who knows from whence they speak weighs in
[13:26] <snap-l> 5) Several "That's counterintuitive" statements
[13:26] <snap-l> 6) Pissing contest over what's correct vs what's intuitive
[13:26] <snap-l> 7) Personal attacks
[13:26] <snap-l> 8) Hitler
[13:27] <jrwren> lol. excellent
[13:28] <greg-g> that reminds me of this post from joey hess: http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/thread_patterns/
[13:29] <snap-l> greg-g: That is awesome.
[13:29] <snap-l> Yeah, I love the blindingly obvious ones
[13:30] <snap-l> usually followed by the "Would you please not 'Reply All'"
[13:30] <snap-l> JoDee had one of those go viral at Macomb
[13:31] <Wolfger> awesome
[13:31] <Wolfger> snap-l: I think you should make an "8 stages of mailing list threads" blog post.
[13:31] <snap-l> Went from some innocent, shouldn't-have-been-posted-to-this-list to several people claiming being on this list was a right of passage to work there, and if they didn't want to be on the list, maybe they sholdn't work there.
[13:31] <Wolfger> preferably with solid examples :-)
[13:32] <snap-l> Eventually causing the admins to employ the nuclear option.
[13:32] <snap-l> Wolfger: Bah, no, thanks.
[13:32] <Wolfger> drop rocks on it from low earth orbit
[13:36] <greg-g> we just had an epic one at the U today, someone sent a message to EVERY SINGLE list they were one to say "I'm updating my email address, but change it for me please!"  Paul Graham's blog is blocked now. As is webchat.
[13:39] <snap-l> Wolfger: Well, Paul Graham's blog gets people to think about what they're doing with life
[13:39] <snap-l> I'm sure Zen Habits is also blocked, as is 43 folders.
[13:39] <greg-g> not the best thing to have your employees doing
[13:39] <Wolfger> very bad for corporate moral, true
[13:40] <Wolfger> s/moral/morale/ even :-p
[13:40] <snap-l> Also "I think we should rewrite our whole infrastructure in LISP" is not what you want to hear on a friday morning.
[13:41] <Wolfger> I don't care what language they use (please, god, not Java), they just need to rewrite the infrastructure.
[13:42] <Wolfger> and the structure, and the exostructure too :-p (am I just making shit up now? I bet there is an exostructure...)
[13:43] <greg-g> sure, like ants
[14:05] <brousch> i'm starting to freak out
[14:05] <brousch> i don't think i'll have enough material to fill an hour
[14:05] <jjesse> so take questions :P
[14:05] <brousch> it's not really a technical talk
[14:06] <brousch> i cannot rely on questions
[14:06] <jjesse> animated gifs?
[14:06] <brousch> i am making heavy use of them already ;)
[14:07] <rick_h_> brousch: don't have to fill an hour
[14:07] <rick_h_> really 40min
[14:07] <brousch> i think i'll have 30mins
[14:07] <rick_h_> so you need 10min :)
[14:07] <rick_h_> sounds like demo time
[14:08] <brousch> heh
[14:08] <brousch> gotta finish the main part first ;)
[14:08] <brousch> but yeah, i could throw up some flask-based projects
[14:08] <Wolfger> stall a bit at the beginning and take questions at the end. Easy way to kill 10 minutes in two smaller chunks. :-)
[14:08] <jrwren> what are you presenting?
[14:09] <ColonelPanic001> http://mashable.com/2011/07/29/internet-explorer-iq/
[14:09] <ColonelPanic001> well, that's not surprising
[14:09] <brousch> jrwren: mostly my experience discovering python and django
[14:20] <snap-l> brousch: Wrost case, you let people out early.
[14:21] <Wolfger> and if they leave early because they had no questions, that's on them :-D
[14:25] <snap-l> Worry about the content, not about the space
[14:42] <Wolfger> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/96933/why-did-git-get-so-much-hype-while-others-dont
[14:43] <rick_h_> Wolfger: that thread is as good as the "Why do developers still use archaic editors from a command line when better tools exist?" thread
[14:45] <Wolfger> :-)
[14:47] <Wolfger> I wasn't even aware that a Git vs. Mercurial holy war existed.
[14:50] <jrwren> it doesn't.
[14:51] <jrwren> there are jihadists that will assure you that a war between christianity and islam is happening right now.
[14:51] <jrwren> similar insanity
[14:53] <Wolfger> jrwren: clearly it does exist, as evidenced by that thread (even if it never existed prior)
[14:54] <rick_h_> it's not so much a git vs Hg, but more a "My tool rocks! your tool sucks!"
[14:54] <Wolfger> likewise, Christian and Muslim extremists killing people for religious reasons are proof that a holy war is going on... just with very limited "armies"
[14:54] <jrwren> no, a war doesn't exist just because 2 people say it does.
[14:55] <Wolfger> rick_h_: Right. Just like vim vs emacs.
[14:56] <rick_h_> meh, at this point I think most of that is just to keep our old jokes alive
[14:56] <Wolfger> "war" is a loose term in the computer world.... no killing involved (so far as I know)
[14:56] <rick_h_> for me it's more about using vim/emacs gets you more respect than eclipse
[14:56] <rick_h_> etc
[14:56] <Wolfger> yeah, well, you're fighting the cli vs gui holy war :-)
[14:56] <rick_h_> I run gvim :P
[14:57] <Wolfger> *gasp*
[15:00] <Wolfger> What I really want to know is, why does stackexchange even host "Programmers" when they never really discuss code at all? It should be "Geek Philosophy" based on the typical content.
[15:00] <Wolfger> StackOverflow is programmers fo' realz
[15:01] <Wolfger> and consequently often over my head, which I why I read the drivel on Programmers :-p
[15:03] <jrwren> can I use vmbuilder to install oneric ?
[15:03] <jrwren> lol
[15:03] <jrwren> StackOverflow is over your head?
[15:04] <jrwren> you should read more there then. its a great place to learn.
[15:10] <jrwren> why doesn't help.ubuntu.com list the stackexchange site?
[15:33] <Wolfger> jrwren: A lot of it is, yeah. I'm actually picking out Python questions now since I'm making an effort to learn Python.
[15:37] <jrwren> is dive into python not a good learning tool anymore?
[15:39] <Wolfger> I'm sure it's just as good as it ever was.
[15:40] <Wolfger> It's one tool in the box
[15:40] <Wolfger> Hell, I just *answered* a question on StackOverflow :-)
[15:43] <jcastro> jrwren: just use testdrive
[15:43] <jcastro> for your vmbuilder question
[15:46] <jrwren> jcastro: thanks.
[15:47] <jrwren> i didn't know about it.
[15:47] <jrwren> knowing is more than half the battle
[15:55] <jcastro> GI JOE!
[15:55] <jcastro> jcastro: I'll write up an answer after lunch
[15:55] <jcastro> I don't think vmbuilder's been updated
[15:55] <jcastro> + testdrive is the way to go, it'll auto zsync your ISOs and just fire them up in KVM automagically
[15:57] <jcastro> jrwren: you did it wrong
[15:57] <jcastro> you should have posted that edit as your own answer
[15:57] <jcastro> and then accept it
[16:09] <Wolfger> greg-g: zomg, emacs violated GPL!!!one1!
[16:09] <Wolfger> http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/07/29/1445252/Emacs-Has-Been-Violating-the-GPL-Since-2009?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29
[16:10] <Wolfger> Ugh. Sorry, that's a wretched URL paste.
[16:23]  * jcastro plonks jrwren, yo, pay attention
[16:42] <jrwren> jcastro: yeah, i forget the SO rules WRT answering your own Question
[16:43] <jrwren> you want me to update it?
[16:43] <jcastro> jrwren: yeah
[16:43] <jcastro> answering your own question is totally fine!
[16:43] <jcastro> I'll fix up your answer
[16:44] <jcastro>  I need you to post it first tho
[16:46] <jrwren> updated.
[16:58] <jrwren> anybody have any broken PS2 Keyboard lying around?
[16:59] <Wolfger> you wouldn't rather have a working one?
[16:59] <Wolfger> regardless, I think mine was trashed/yardsaled/donated some time ago.
[16:59] <jrwren> yeah, I should find a computer recycle place.
[16:59] <jrwren> I just want the connector to cut off
[17:00] <Wolfger> but I'll look this weekend and see if I do still have it
[17:01] <Wolfger> what do you want next, a 5.25" floppy drive?
[17:01] <Wolfger> :-)
[17:05] <nullspace> 8" nothing less
[17:06] <ColonelPanic001> that's what sh... nevermind
[17:06] <nullspace> nice
[17:09] <Wolfger> rofl
[17:09] <Wolfger> ColonelPanic001++
[17:09] <ColonelPanic001> \o/
[17:10]  * Wolfger has never even seen an 8"...
[17:13] <ColonelPanic001> I'll show you sometime
[17:14] <Wolfger> Bring it Penguicon and show it off in the lobby.
[17:15] <jrwren> i think i have a 5.25" aruond.
[17:15] <jrwren> no... maybe no.
[17:15] <ColonelPanic001> excellent idea
[17:16] <jrwren> ouch.  kvm segfaults when I connect to it with VNC :(
[17:18] <Wolfger> ColonelPanic001: on the night of the masquerade, you can carry it around under a trench coat and ask everybody if they'd like to see your "8-incher"
[17:19] <Wolfger> and if they say yes, whip it out
[17:20]  * Wolfger considers maybe this is being stretched a bit thin
[17:20] <ColonelPanic001> heh
[17:20] <ColonelPanic001> that'd amuse me
[17:21] <Wolfger> It's Friday. I'm stuck here for another 90 minutes-ish. I'm in "can't the weekend just START already?" mode.
[17:22] <Wolfger> Already did my daily quota of Python skill building.  I'm cut'n'pasting my way through it mostly.
[17:37] <Wolfger> and I'm not satisfied with that
[17:38] <Wolfger> It'd be nice if I could put together a code block without flipping back and forth to the internets for each line
[17:45] <Wolfger> and everything (in the tutorials) has a -1 id passed to it, but nowhere does it explain why it's -1, or what that really means, and that annoys the crap out of me.
[17:47] <Wolfger> if ID is always -1, why even bother having that parameter? That's 4 useless keystrokes per instance.
[20:47] <rick_h_> party!
[20:47] <rick_h_> hello from Ohio
[20:49] <snap-l> Hello from PyOhio. :)
[20:53] <nullspace> pfhhhhhhhh
[20:54] <rick_h_> who let the java speak?
[20:54]  * rick_h_ looks for the java mute button :P
[21:00] <snap-l> Heh


[23:22] <jakemp> any linux devs in here? what do you use to work on a c based project?
[23:22] <th0r> Star_Light: you would have better luck in either #programming or one of the php channels
[23:22] <Reign_> That does not make sense. And my computer is slightly above not running right now. I will back another time.
[23:22] <sandyd> Reign_: http://www.bootdisk.com/ . Download the cd for flashing bios
[23:22] <Star_Light> th0r aha
[23:23] <Star_Light> where ??? in which channel?
[23:23] <Star_Light> th0r ok lol
[23:23] <Star_Light> i have headache :/
[23:23] <Star_Light> and i dont see the room !
[23:24] <th0r> Star_Light: your questions have nothing to do with either linux in general or ubuntu, so I doubt you are going to get an answer here
[23:24] <Star_Light> i mean i didnt*
[23:24] <iceroot> jakemp: ##c, #linux
[23:24] <Star_Light> th0r ok but im ubuntu user
[23:25] <trakinas> Star_Light: but your question involves php and sockets. which is more concerned to the later
[23:25] <Star_Light> ok ok
[23:26] <nikro> erm, can the Xorg / Gallium / Mesa driver cause my ATI GPU to heat up in idle state?
[23:26] <Wally> Star_Light: try /knock #php
[23:26] <Wally> you might get access :)
[23:26] <papirius> you do not understand
[23:26] <papirius> your computer is being hacked by israel
[23:26] <chrisf> nikro: #radeon
[23:26] <Star_Light> papirius :o
[23:26] <nikro> chrisf: thnx
[23:27] <paranoidi> I have rather critical problem, ubuntu server (despite being desktopless) is trying to feed my poor small LCD 1024x768 with latest kernel(s) .. how can I stop that?
[23:27] <Wally> paranoidi: try #server
[23:27] <paranoidi> Wally: thanks for the tip
[23:27] <Wally> I mean thats what we are doing right? sending everyone else to other places?
[23:27] <Wally> paranoidi: ;)
[23:27] <escott> paranoidi, /etc/default/grub and there may be a similar file for plymouth
[23:28] <linus_> @paranoidi, you should be able to set the size of the terminal with boot arguments
[23:28] <paranoidi> escott: it would otherwise, but it's kernel specific thing .. the options in menu.lst were identical
[23:28] <Star_Light> ubelievable... no one in network programming??? awwww im soooo dissapointed!
[23:28] <escott> paranoidi, you could send the kernel a parameter for its framebuffer size
[23:28] <escott> Star_Light, if you are going to keep bringing it up on this channel at least ask the full question
[23:29] <Star_Light> ok
[23:30] <Wally> paranoidi: my apologies to you.
[23:30] <Star_Light> escott in according to you in what langauge is good for network programming? C or PHP??? for sockets ...
[23:31] <paranoidi> Wally: none needed, I got the key term (framebuffer) from here which answered my question, older kernels probably had different default values
[23:31] <qin> Yeah, sure.
[23:31] <Kuwanger> Is there a simple way to view/dump the current state of the video card?  I'm interested because some times when I boot up the graphics are corrupt, and I'm hoping there's something obviously wrong in those boots compared to a normal boot.
[23:31] <escott> Star_Light, im sure they are equally good pick the language you want to work in
[23:31] <webchat`client00> hello, is it legal to sell Ubuntu on a computer DVD store?
[23:32] <kzmrbtx> i have a pc connected to a wireless network (which provides internet) and my local network (which also provides internet, another IP). how do i make the wireless interface the primary interface for internet access?
[23:32] <linus_> @Start_Light I think the question between php and C would depend mostly you final deployment environment
[23:32] <magn3ts> So it's the year 2011 and my music player that ships with my OS can't play m4a. That makes me sad inside.
[23:32] <Star_Light> guys i dont want to work in one language completely
[23:32] <aeon-ltd> kzmrbtx: without disabling LAN?
[23:32] <Star_Light> im already work php and C
[23:33] <Kuwanger> magn3ts: What's m4a?
[23:33] <Star_Light> but know i want to create the sockets
[23:33] <aeon-ltd> Kuwanger: itunes aac container
[23:33] <kzmrbtx> aeon-ltd, yes, without disabling LAN
[23:33] <magn3ts> Kuwanger, something apple related but it's not DRM protected.
[23:33] <escott> webchat`client00, probably not
[23:33] <aeon-ltd> kzmrbtx: then no idea, sorry. personally i'd create a script that would toggle this
[23:33] <Star_Light> i want to learn much languages
[23:34] <magn3ts> many
[23:34] <Kuwanger> aeon-ltd: Ah.
[23:34] <kzmrbtx> ok
[23:34] <sandyd> magn3ts: m4a works perfectly in vlc, amarok, totem, and rythembox
[23:34] <qin> magn3ts: Lol
[23:34] <Star_Light> or ... to have familiarize with programming languages this isnt better?
[23:34] <webchat`client00> escott: the license on ubuntu website says: "While Ubuntu will not charge licence fees for this distribution, you might want to charge to print Ubuntu CDs, or create your own customised versions of Ubuntu which you sell, and should have the freedom to do so."
[23:34] <magn3ts> sandyd, but not in banshee?
[23:34] <magn3ts> lol
[23:34] <linus_> C is the most popular programing language so it should be easier to find documentatuon
[23:34] <webchat`client00> i don't quite understand that
[23:34] <magn3ts> sandyd, It also works here in vlc, totem, rhythmbox
[23:34] <Star_Light> linus_ yes it is but is diffucult at the same time ;p
[23:35] <sandyd> magn3ts: banshee is mono. might be the reason why
[23:35] <Star_Light> especially in sockets
[23:35] <Star_Light> awwww so difficult you know
[23:35] <aeon-ltd> sandyd: microsoft you've done it again :)
[23:35] <magn3ts> sandyd, nah, it uses gstreamer, and actually rhythmbox is flat out not picking up on a bunch of my artists....
[23:35] <sandyd> magn3ts: i meant banshee runs on mono
[23:35] <magn3ts> mono is hardly microsoft, it's just an impl of a language spec.
[23:36] <Kuwanger> webchat`client00: Sounds like it's okay then.  But, be sure to either include the source code to packages or a written offer to provide source code for a reasonable fee.  This could mean setting up a web server and putting the source code there and providing a link to buyers.
[23:36] <escott> webchat`client00, the gpl guarantees the right to sell the software provided you follow the gpl (there are other licenses that apply in addition to the gpl), so as meet those conditions you are fine under the copyright law. the trademark on "ubuntu" law might be more problematic.
[23:36] <magn3ts> sandyd, I know, that shouldn't affect it's ability to let another library play music. It either excludes m4a files manually, I don't have the right gstreamer plugin installed, or there is a bug somewhere lurking
[23:36] <magn3ts> I just don't know how I'm the first to notice this.
[23:36] <sandyd> magn3ts: and banshee works perfectly with m4a
[23:36] <Kuwanger> webchat`client00: That applies to all GPL2/GPL3/whatever other packages have such a provision in their license.  So, you wouldn't have to include source for everything.
[23:36] <magn3ts> sandyd, oh I forgot!
[23:37] <sandyd> magn3ts: i dragged the anoying friday song in, and it works perfectly
[23:37] <magn3ts> It works with SOME m4a.
[23:37] <linus_> @Star_Light http://cs.baylor.edu/~donahoo/practical/CSockets/PracticalSocketC.pdf
[23:37] <webchat`client00> okay, thanks escott , Kuwanger
[23:37] <escott> webchat`client00, if you make cds and charge a nominal fee for the media and effort, nobody will care. if you modify the basic ubuntu system and keep the ubuntu logo... that could be a problem
[23:37] <magn3ts> My LCD SS is all M4A, but only 3/4 albums appear in Banshee.... NONE appear in Rhythmbox...
[23:37] <magn3ts> sounds more and more buggy to me, I believe rhytmbox also uses gstreamer
[23:38] <sandyd> magn3ts: wait.... I don't use ubuntu, so my memory might be a little weak. however, theirs some gstreamer-bad* plugins
[23:38] <sandyd> did you check them?
[23:38] <webchat`client00> ok, clear now. thanks escott
[23:38] <magn3ts> sandyd, have em all.
[23:38] <linus_> php looks much simpler but you are dealing with a script language that need an interpreter to run.
[23:38] <magn3ts> I'm convinced now it's a Banshee bug. It *is* seeing and playing them, but only some.
[23:38]  * Kuwanger doesn't have m4as. :/
[23:38] <sandyd> magn3ts: the gstreamer-plugins-bad plugins are of lower, buggier quality
[23:39] <sandyd> magn3ts: the gstreamer-plugins-ugly is fine.
[23:39] <magn3ts> yeah but rhythmbox handles it correctly ;)
[23:39] <magn3ts> Kuwanger, I was just going to convert them, but when I did they shrank in size so I paniced and kept the m4a
[23:40] <sandyd> magn3ts: *shrug*. banshee here is being idiotic as well actually. Only one of the itunes albums is not showing. ah well.
[23:40] <s0up> would anybody happen to know how to get rid of the yellow outline that pops up when drawing windows w/ compiz turned off?
[23:40] <sandyd> magn3ts: use ffmpeg with -sameq
[23:40] <s0up> using natty w/ fglrx & metacity
[23:40] <magn3ts> yeah, not really sure why the switch from rhythmbox to banshee.
[23:40] <escott> Star_Light, what is motivating this php or C decision. its an oddly limited set of languages to pick from
[23:41] <sandyd> magn3ts: wait. where are all your m4as from
[23:41] <magn3ts> sandyd, random places?
[23:41] <magn3ts> idk, is there an easy way to chekc?
[23:41] <sandyd> magn3ts: all the ones from itunes works properly, while all my studio recordings don't show up.
[23:42] <sandyd> magn3ts: it might be that banshee doesn't read the tags properly
[23:42] <linus_> I need help with pulseaudio. No devices show up in the Hardware tab of sound preferences. I have created a fresh install to a flash drive and they show, but on my install that I updated to natty nothing shows. I am trying to configure a bluetooth headset and neither that or internal card is displayed.
[23:42] <sandyd> magn3ts: check the tags of your music with easytag
[23:42] <magn3ts> well, com.apple.iTunes is embedded in the m5a
[23:42] <magn3ts> lol
[23:42] <magn3ts> and itunes version info
[23:42] <sandyd> magn3ts: and make sure that nothing is highlighted as red.
[23:43] <magn3ts> meh, these other do too though
[23:43] <magn3ts> I'll check easytag now
[23:43] <sandyd> magn3ts: stuff that is highlighted as red doesn't follow the tag standards. banshee might just be a bit picky with the tags.
[23:44] <magn3ts> mk
[23:46] <magn3ts> lol easytag is struggling with my library.
[23:47] <red__> Hi all
[23:49] <red__> I am trying to set up a file share with samba and i am stuck
[23:49] <linus_> @red stuck where?
[23:49] <red__> I am a newbie and I dont know what to do
[23:50] <quickslvr> \
[23:50] <escott> red__, are you sharing from ubuntu to windows or windows to ubuntu
[23:50] <folivora> red__: There should be nice how to for Samba.
[23:50] <red__> I not sure what to do i have installed the application
[23:50] <[snake]> Can you change any settings for the global bar? I don't like the way my menu options disappear if I'm not hovering over it.
[23:50] <escott> !samba | red__
[23:50] <red__> Ubuntu to mac
[23:50] <folivora> red__: aptitude search samba
[23:50] <folivora> red__: then install that
[23:50] <folivora> and conf ^^
[23:51] <linus_> @red try right click on the folder then sharing options
[23:51] <red__> brb linus
[23:52] <[snake]> I love samba. It solves all you problems(involving network sharing issues between different os's).
[23:54] <qin> red__: Ubuntu to mac? sshfs looks ok.
[23:56] <red__> ok all is visable do i need to do anything to my router?
[23:56] <red__> qin ubuntu to mac
[23:58] <escott> red__, you shouldn't need to
[23:58] <red__> kool
[23:58] <red__> so now how do I find the mac
[23:59] <escott> red__, you don't need to find the mac, you just need to configure the share. you might try swat or directly modify /etc/samba/smb.conf


[02:21] <_ion> Does anyone know which tool Keybuk uses for keeping the ChangeLog file updated in bzr?
[04:26] <_ion> Phew. Today was one of the few days of a year when i actually manage to get some code done despite my health issues. I wrote http://soijabanaani.net/tmp/nih_watch_delayed.diff
[04:26] <_ion> Writing that took like ten times the time it would have taken if i could concentrate normally.
[04:27] <_ion> Here's also a small parenthesis fix, http://soijabanaani.net/tmp/nih_hash_foreach_parenthesis.diff
[11:30] <phsdv> int0x0c, are you trying to get upstart going on gentoo?
[11:45] <phsdv> I just uploaded an ebuild for 0.3.5 into gentoo bugzilla (http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150190)
[03:09] <Keybuk> so, I came up with a neat idea ...
[03:09] <Keybuk> you know how we have emits ?
[03:09] <Keybuk> that'd be a really nice way of defining special events
[03:10] <Keybuk> job lists the event names with the emits stanza
[03:10] <Keybuk> and when started, sends a message to upstart saying that it wants active notification of registrations
[03:10] <Keybuk> upstart sees it's from a pid of a known job, that has listed emits stanzas
[03:10] <Keybuk> so sends the job back as a reply every use of "on THAT-EVENT"
[03:10] <Keybuk> and whenever new jobs are registered, or jobs are deleted, keeps that process up to date
[03:11] <Keybuk> e.g.
[03:11] <Keybuk> a job called "inetd"
[03:11] <Keybuk> emits tcp udp
[03:11] <Keybuk> connects to upstart
[03:11] <Keybuk> and receives information that there are jobs with
[03:11] <Keybuk> on tcp 80
[03:11] <Keybuk> on udp 53
[03:11] <Keybuk> etc.
[03:11] <Keybuk> so it knows to listen on those ports, and knows to emit events with those arguments
[03:12] <AlexExtreme> sounds good
[03:14] <AlexExtreme> so, there's most of the work for replacing inetd done? :P
[03:16] <Keybuk> it means you can take exotic events out of the core
[03:16] <Keybuk> don't want inetd support?  don't run upstart-ientd
[03:16] <AlexExtreme> yes
[03:17] <Keybuk> useful for the dbus proxy too
[03:17] <Keybuk> on dbus com/redhat/dhcp/eth0 com.redhat.dhcp.down
[03:17] <Keybuk> so it'd know to listen to that signal, and emit that evnet
[04:06] <_ion> keybuk: Ooo, really nice idea.
[04:06] <_ion> keybuk: Any comments about the watch_delayed thing?
[04:07] <Keybuk> I looked at the code, and it looked pretty good
[04:07] <Keybuk> haven't had a chance to test it yet; want to get complex-event done today since we want that asap
[04:07] <_ion> All right.
[04:08] <Keybuk> will look at it properly this week : )
[04:09] <_ion> You might want to include nih_hash_foreach_parenthesis.diff immediately though, it fixes a bug. :-)
[04:10] <Keybuk> yeah, I saw that
[04:10] <Keybuk> thanks!
[04:10] <Keybuk> can you paste me a changelog for that one
[04:12] <_ion>         * nih/hash.c (NIH_HASH_FOREACH, NIH_HASH_FOREACH_SAFE): Added missing parenthesis.
[04:12] <_ion> Is that enough? :-)
[04:13] <_ion> Duh, nih/hash.h, not .c
[04:13] <_ion> What tool do you use to maintain the changelog and have it integrated with bzr commits, btw?
[04:13] <_ion> A bzr plugin?
[04:14] <Keybuk> a shell script
[04:15] <_ion> Is it available for downloading? :-)
[04:15] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/software/bzr-commit
[04:15] <_ion> Thanks
[04:15] <Keybuk> I maintain the ChangeLog first using emacs (C-x 4 a)
[04:16] <Keybuk> and then just use that to do the commits, with the changelog diff
[04:16] <Keybuk> actually -- can you commit your watch delayed stuffa
[04:16] <Keybuk> and push it to a branch of your own?
[04:18] <Keybuk> something like
[04:18] <_ion> Actually i did commit it to a branch of my own in the first place, but decided just to send a diff because i hadn't written changelog entries or commit messages using the format you use in your repository. I'll do that now, using that script. :-)
[04:19] <Keybuk> bzr push<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:19] <Keybuk> I think is the format
[04:19] <Keybuk> that should automatically register it on https://code.launchpad.net/libnih
[04:52] <_ion> keybuk: https://code.launchpad.net/~ion/+branch/libnih/watch-delayed
[04:54] <Keybuk> excellent
[04:54] <Keybuk> wing-commander scott% ./parse "foo bar baz until frodo bilbo and eep"
[04:54] <Keybuk> Operator (AND)
[04:54] <Keybuk>     Event ("eep")
[04:54] <Keybuk>     Operator (UNTIL)
[04:54] <Keybuk>         Event ("frodo", "bilbo")
[04:54] <Keybuk>         Event ("foo", "bar", "baz")
[04:54] <Keybuk> \o/
[04:54] <Keybuk> now to figure out whether I've got the precedence right :p
[04:54] <_ion> \o/
[04:55] <Keybuk> wing-commander scott% ./parse "foo until bar and frodo until bilbo"
[04:55] <Keybuk> Operator (AND)
[04:55] <Keybuk>     Operator (UNTIL)
[04:55] <Keybuk>         Event ("bilbo")
[04:55] <Keybuk>         Event ("frodo")
[04:55] <Keybuk>     Operator (UNTIL)
[04:55] <Keybuk>         Event ("bar")
[04:55] <Keybuk>         Event ("foo")
[05:10] <_ion> keybuk: You should be able to pull the nih/hash.h fix and nothing else by running bzr merge --pull -r 386 http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ion/libnih/watch-delayed, i think.
[05:11] <_ion> The actual delayed watch code is in revno 387.
[05:12] <Keybuk> wing-commander scott% ./parse "set timer until (boom or kaboom)"
[05:12] <Keybuk> Operator (UNTIL)
[05:12] <Keybuk>     Event ("set", "timer")
[05:12] <Keybuk>     Operator (OR)
[05:12] <Keybuk>         Event ("boom")
[05:12] <Keybuk>         Event ("kaboom")
[05:12] <Keybuk> \o/
[05:13] <_ion> \/
[05:13] <AlexExtreme> :)
[05:13] <_ion> keybuk: Have you decided a name for the complex-event-spec stanza yet? :-)
[05:14] <Keybuk> wing-commander scott% ./parse "fhs-filesystem-mounted until fhs-filesystem-down and network-up until network-down"
[05:14] <Keybuk> Operator (AND)
[05:14] <Keybuk>     Operator (UNTIL)
[05:14] <Keybuk>         Event ("fhs-filesystem-mounted")
[05:14] <Keybuk>         Event ("fhs-filesystem-down")
[05:14] <Keybuk>     Operator (UNTIL)
[05:14] <Keybuk>         Event ("network-up")
[05:14] <Keybuk>         Event ("network-down")
[05:14] <Keybuk> _ion: nope
[05:22] <Keybuk> wing-commander scott% ./parse "with apache or with thttpd"
[05:22] <Keybuk> Operator (OR)
[05:22] <Keybuk>     Operator (WITH)
[05:22] <Keybuk>         Event ("apache")
[05:22] <Keybuk>     Operator (WITH)
[05:22] <Keybuk>         Event ("thttpd")
[05:22] <Keybuk> yay
[05:22] <Keybuk> even unary works
[05:22] <_ion> Whee
[05:23] <_ion> D'oh, i wrote "patch change events" to the changelog entry. :-)
[05:24] <Keybuk> oops
[05:26] <Keybuk> ok, I think the parser works
[05:27] <Keybuk> got to make config respect parens as newline escapers, then try and recodify my ugly quick C into a stanza parser
[05:49] <Keybuk> interesting question
[05:49] <Keybuk> should this:
[05:49] <Keybuk>   FOO blah and (blah until blah       # some comment
[05:49] <Keybuk>                 or blah until blah)
[05:49] <Keybuk> be valid
[05:49] <Keybuk> (ie. comment inside parens
[05:50] <_ion> I don't see why not. Someone might want to do something like this, while testing something:
[05:50] <Keybuk> it's kinda unique in the format, since nothing else uses parens
[05:50] <_ion> FOO something something (something # comment out the rest of the line, something something
[05:51] <_ion>                          # comment out also this part, something something)
[05:51] <_ion>                          new stuff)
[05:51] <Keybuk> and I do think not being required to escape newlines inside parens is useful
[06:06] <AStorm> Hello.
[06:06] <Keybuk> hey AStorm
[06:06] <Keybuk> _ion: merged 386
[06:07] <AStorm> I've ran upstart on Gentoo, basic compatibility right now
[06:07] <AStorm> (running large /sbin/rc, and requires a small modification of one script)
[06:07] <Keybuk> sweet, do you have the details of what needs to be done?
[06:07] <AStorm> I'm developing a fully event-based init system for it.
[06:07] <Keybuk> planning to ship some example jobs in the upstart tarball directly with the next version, would be cool to have a gentoo subdir in there
[06:07] <AStorm> And I've some questions, esp. regarding mounting
[06:07] <Keybuk> sure
[06:08] <AStorm> Is there something like stop for these?
[06:08] <AStorm> Like the default plain exec is start
[06:08] <AStorm> then stop would be ran on stopping.
[06:08] <Keybuk> sorry, not sure I understand
[06:08] <AStorm> Or do I have to use post-stop?
[06:08] <AStorm> You know, I don't want to split the event in two.
[06:09] <Keybuk> oh, I see what you mean
[06:09] <Keybuk> upstart's jobs aren't quite analogous to init scripts
[06:09] <AStorm> (could do this with unmount-dev script for "on stopped mount-dev")
[06:09] <AStorm> I'd rather have it called directly in one script.
[06:09] <Keybuk> you can do it one of two ways
[06:09] <AStorm> Can do this in post-stop right now...
[06:09] <Keybuk> have two jobs, mount and unmount
[06:09] <AStorm> (or in pre-stop)
[06:09] <Keybuk> one that mounts things, one that unmounts them
[06:09] <AStorm> But it feels unclean.
[06:09] <Keybuk> and have them otherwise unrelated
[06:10] <Keybuk> or
[06:10] <Keybuk> you can have them in one job
[06:10] <AStorm> related related
[06:10] <Keybuk> if you have them in one job, put the mount stuff in pre-start
[06:10] <Keybuk> and the unmount stuff in post-stop
[06:10] <AStorm> By the unmount one would dep "on stopped mount-dev"
[06:10] <Keybuk> and don't have an exec or a script
[06:10] <Keybuk> the job would appear to be "running" all the time the disk is mounted
[06:10] <AStorm> Exactly.
[06:10] <Keybuk> (note that there's a sliiight bug there atm)
[06:11] <AStorm> Bug? What kind of?
[06:11] <Keybuk> it won't ever actually stop
[06:11] <AStorm> hmm.
[06:11] <Keybuk> it slipped in at the last minute yesterday before I released 0.3.5
[06:11] <AStorm> Right, because it's no daemon and there's no SIGCHLD, right?
[06:11] <Keybuk> I didn't have a good enough test case for it
[06:11] <AStorm> Funny bug. So, for now, I'll split the script.
[06:12] <Keybuk> right; because when the stop event comes in, it will only change the goal to stop -- and won't force a state change
[06:12] <AStorm> Funny.
[06:12] <Keybuk> this worked a few days ago
[06:12] <AStorm> Not a problem with me, but with the users...
[06:13] <AStorm> Now to unmount the device, they'd have to "start" the unmount
[06:13] <AStorm> not stop the mount :-) A bit illogical.
[06:13] <Keybuk> would you have one job per mounted disk, or one job for all of fstab ?
[06:13] <AStorm> Rather the first one
[06:13] <Keybuk> right
[06:13] <AStorm> But the job would work using an argument.
[06:14] <Keybuk> for the first one, you'd do something like:
[06:14] <Keybuk>    instance
[06:14] <Keybuk>    start on block-device-added
[06:14] <Keybuk>    stop on block-device-removed
[06:14] <Keybuk> or something
[06:14] <AStorm> Yes, something like that probably.
[06:14] <Keybuk> the instance bit is important, it tells upstart that multiple copies can be running
[06:14] <AStorm> But right now, it's /dev mounting, which is doubly funny
[06:14] <Keybuk> (temporary fix
[06:14] <Keybuk> rather than splitting into two jobs, just have a dummy script
[06:14] <AStorm> Aha, nice, undocumented.
[06:15] <Keybuk> pre-start script
[06:15] <Keybuk>    # mount stuff
[06:15] <Keybuk> end script
[06:15] <AStorm> Fine, very fine.
[06:15] <Keybuk> post-stop script
[06:15] <Keybuk>    # unmount stuff
[06:15] <Keybuk> end script
[06:15] <AStorm> I know. the bug is just when I exec something, right?
[06:15] <AStorm> (in full start)
[06:15] <Keybuk> script
[06:15] <Keybuk>    while true; do sleep 1000; done
[06:15] <Keybuk> end script
[06:16] <_ion> sleep inf
[06:16] <Keybuk> the script...end script will mean that there's a process running while the disk is mounted
[06:16] <Keybuk> _ion: does that work? :p  neat
[06:16] <Keybuk> exec sleep inf
[06:16] <Keybuk> :p
[06:17] <_ion> It works with GNU sleep, but not with e.g. the BSD one.
[06:17] <AStorm> Keybuk, uh, a bit evil hack, but temporarily I'll do that.
[06:17] <Keybuk> then this week, when I fix that bug, you can drop the sleep :p
[06:17] <AStorm> _ion, not a problem here, it's Gentoo and it's temporary.
[06:18] <AStorm> Good, very good.
[06:18] <Keybuk> the bug is that it won't force a state change out of running if there's no pid; because the child reaper calls job_change_goal and doesn't want a state change as a side-effect
[06:18] <AStorm> The major thing will be forcing udev to generate events
[06:18] <AStorm> the default rules don't do that
[06:18] <Keybuk> this turns out to be wrong, simply because the child reaper actually does want to force a state change as a side-effect :p
[06:18] <Keybuk> so all I need to is fix the child reaper, and remove the bogus check from job_change_goal
[06:18] <Keybuk> need to write some test cases for it first though
[06:19] <AStorm> Just check the state
[06:19] <AStorm> after running some echo in pre-start
[06:19] <AStorm> and something else in post-stop
[06:19] <AStorm> (e.g. some file write), then check if the file was written
[06:19] <AStorm> Without any exec inside.
[06:20] <AStorm> I wonder if initctl stop thatservice would hang
[06:21] <Keybuk> sorry?
[06:21] <AStorm> The state would change properly to stopping?
[06:21] <AStorm> Is it just that the task doesn't enter "waiting" state?
[06:22] <AStorm> or something else totally?
[06:23] <AStorm> Or just that it finishes too early?
[06:24] <Keybuk> post-stop gets run in stopping
[06:24] <Keybuk> and then it should go to waiting
[06:25] <Keybuk> initctl hangs is probably the bug
[06:27] <AStorm> Hmm, the test would be quite hard.
[06:27] <AStorm> Because of the hang, you'd have to use shell job control with some timeout.
[06:29] <AStorm> damned halting problem, eh? :P
[06:34] <phsdv> AStorm, I have made an ebuild for 0.3.5 (in bugzilla). If you needs some help with your new scripts on gentoo, pls let me know
[06:35] <AStorm> Well, the help would be wrt making udev send upstart events
[06:36] <AlexExtreme> that's easy
[06:36] <AStorm> I've overwritten my init with upstart currently, have the stupid way of compatibility (running full gentoo init) working
[06:36] <AStorm> AlexExtreme, so then, describe it to me, I'd be grateful.
[06:36] <Keybuk> AStorm: RUN+="initctl emit some-event"
[06:37] <phsdv> ACTION=="add",    SUBSYSTEM=="block", KERNEL=="*[!0-9] ", RUN="/usr/sbin/initctl emit block-device-added %k"
[06:37] <AStorm> I'm not a master of init rules...
[06:37] <AlexExtreme> damn
[06:37] <AlexExtreme> beat me to it :)
[06:37] <AStorm> phsdv, ok, so simple :-)
[06:37] <AStorm> So I'll have to also do a package of udev rules - expected that.
[06:37] <phsdv> I had them ready... wrote them a while ago
[06:37] <Keybuk> phsdv: add "-eDEVNAME" to that
[06:37] <phsdv> -eDEVNAME?
[06:37] <AStorm> phsdv, could you mail them to me then? (or put somewhere I can get them)
[06:38] <AStorm> The parameter, you know
[06:38] <AStorm> or environment variable DEVNAME
[06:38] <Keybuk> phsdv: put the DEVNAME environment variable in the environment of any job run by the block-device-added event
[06:38] <_ion> -eBAR without =quux grabs the value from the current environment? Nice.
[06:38] <AStorm> Great. It's so bad the upstart is so undocumented yet :-)
[06:38] <phsdv> ACTION=="remove", SUBSYSTEM=="block", KERNEL=="*[!0-9] ", RUN="/usr/sbin/initctl emit block-device-removed %k"
[06:39] <phsdv> ^ same for remove
[06:39] <AStorm> phsdv, I know, I know.
[06:39] <Keybuk> AStorm: heh, I do have "document it" high on the TODO list
[06:39] <Keybuk> though remember, a lot of the features you're using today were only written in the last week <g>
[06:39] <AStorm> Keybuk, hehe, I'll do something like that
[06:39] <AStorm> when I finish full gentoo init script compat
[06:39] <AStorm> which will consist of modified depscan.sh and runscript.sh
[06:40] <AStorm> (to store the dependencies in upstart scripts)
[06:40] <AStorm> Maybe also some mapping, like: net="network-device-eth0:network-device-eth1"
[06:42] <AStorm> The hardest part will be deps of type "use"
[06:42] <AStorm> The script would have to check the list of added services (simple, right :P )
[06:43] <AStorm> Keybuk, is it possible to parametrise the dependencies, so I don't have to generate scripts?
[06:43] <AStorm> As in the dependency would be a parameter, some environment value?
[06:43] <_ion> Well, you could do as Ubuntu does: keep the old compatibility layer there and gradually rewrite things from the old system to upstart.
[06:44] <AStorm> I'm just thinking about that.
[06:44] <AStorm> Just moving the most basic layer to upstart now
[06:44] <AStorm> and write the compat script
[06:45] <AStorm> Keybuk, so, is that possible? To base "dependencies" (events I want get started on) on the environment variable or a parameter?
[06:45] <mbiebl> AStorm: What about documenting your work on the wiki?
[06:45] <mbiebl> http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/UpstartOnGentoo
[06:45] <AStorm> I'll do that :-)
[06:45] <AStorm> When I have something working, I'll do an ebuild and document it.
[06:46] <mbiebl> Great, seems as many gentooers are already playing with upstart and there is much duplicated effort.
[06:46] <AStorm> Not a lot, though.
[06:47] <AStorm> Upstart is so nice, the amount of "work" required is low.
[06:47] <AStorm> (except that possible conversion script - that requires a tiny bit of bash-fu)
[06:48] <Keybuk> AStorm: I'm not sure I understand what you mean?
[06:48] <AStorm> Keybuk, like that:
[06:48] <AStorm> There is an event send, let's call it run-me
[06:49] <AStorm> It is emitted with an unknown number of parameters: abc def ghi
[06:49] <AStorm> And I want to have them converted to: on abc and on def and on ghi
[06:50] <AStorm> Maybe a tiny extension of the syntax - explicit and?
[06:50] <AStorm> and support for environment vars in calculation of the events/
[06:51] <Keybuk> so you have
[06:51] <AStorm> E.g. I could do: initctl run-it DEPS="abc def ghi"
[06:51] <Keybuk>   "run-me abc def ghi"
[06:51] <AStorm> and do: on $DEPS
[06:51] <Keybuk> ?
[06:51] <AStorm> I don't have that yet :-)
[06:51] <Keybuk> I'm still trying to understand what you're trying to do, I'm afraid
[06:51] <AStorm> s/initctl/initctl emit/
[06:52] <AlexExtreme> it's *very* complicated :)
[06:52] <AStorm> Keybuk, it's a simple "need" based system
[06:52] <AStorm> AlexExtreme, not really
[06:52] <AStorm> With some "after and before"
[06:52] <Keybuk> so when a job starts, it causes the jobs it needs to also be started?
[06:52] <AlexExtreme> it seemed that way to me :P
[06:52] <AStorm> Keybuk, exactly.
[06:52] <Keybuk> or is it the kind where a job is not started until everything it needs has been started by something else?
[06:52] <AStorm> Like that old "depend" trick
[06:53] <AStorm> Which was obsoleted some time ago
[06:53] <AStorm> Keybuk, the second one rather
[06:53] <Keybuk> in upstart, if "FOO" needs "BAR" then in FOO's job file, you would write:
[06:53] <Keybuk>     start on started FOO
[06:53] <Keybuk>     stop on stopping FOO
[06:53] <AStorm> Exactly.
[06:53] <Keybuk> err
[06:53] <Keybuk> s/FOO/BAR/ in that :p
[06:53] <AStorm> And I'd add in the main one: start on gentoo
[06:54] <AStorm> and stop on gentoo
[06:54] <AStorm> that one would emit proper events to run things
[06:54] <Keybuk> in the main one?
[06:55] <AStorm> Something like that, right.
[06:55] <Keybuk> main what?
[06:55] <AStorm> A conversion of Gentoo init to rcS, so it seems.
[06:55] <AStorm> It's just that the script "gentoo" would call the wrapper for gentoo-style init multiple times
[06:55] <Keybuk> maybe I need to rewind here
[06:55] <Keybuk> are you wanting to know how to rewrite current init scripts into upstart native jobs ...
[06:56] <AStorm> and this wrapper would get the deps right (precalculated by script)
[06:56] <Keybuk> ... or are you trying to find out how to write a generic job that can start any gentoo init script ?
[06:56] <AStorm> Keybuk, the last one
[06:56] <Keybuk> aha!
[06:56] <Keybuk> right, basis of my confusion here then :p;
[06:56] <AStorm> This would simulate gentoo runlevels.
[06:57] <AStorm> and the smaller script would just launch things
[06:57] <Keybuk> well, at the most basic level, you need a job that handles the simple case of starting, running and stopping one job
[06:57] <AStorm> Exactly, but with parametrised deps
[06:57] <Keybuk> ideally, that would need to spawn the job in the pre-start script, and then kill it again in the post-start script
[06:57] <AStorm> But then, I'd need a wildcard
[06:57] <Keybuk> and somehow wedge in the running state while the job is actually running
[06:58] <AStorm> Yes.
[06:58] <Keybuk> first you need to write the job, without any deps
[06:58] <Keybuk> you could do it all in "script" in fact
[06:58] <Keybuk> script
[06:58] <Keybuk>    /etc/init.d/$JOB start
[06:58] <AStorm> Exactly
[06:58] <AStorm> That's what I want...
[06:58] <Keybuk>    while [ -f /var/run/$JOB.pid ] ; do sleep 1; done
[06:58] <AStorm> but for deps I'd need to match on the JOB variable
[06:58] <Keybuk>    /etc/init.d/$JOB stop
[06:58] <Keybuk> end script
[06:58] <AStorm> No pidfile support
[06:58] <Keybuk> though that's not quite right, since stopping the upstart job would not stop the gentoo one
[06:59] <Keybuk> what I might do there is
[06:59] <AStorm> Gentoo is using the pids itself in the scripts
[06:59] <Keybuk> post-start script
[06:59] <Keybuk>     /etc/init.d/$JOB start
[06:59] <Keybuk> end script
[06:59] <Keybuk> script
[06:59] <AStorm> Just call /etc/init.d/$JOB stop
[06:59] <AStorm> Yes, that's it.
[06:59] <Keybuk>     while /etc/init.d/$JOB is-running; do sleep 1; done
[06:59] <Keybuk> end script
[06:59] <Keybuk> pre-stop script
[06:59] <Keybuk>     /etc/init.d/$JOB stop
[06:59] <Keybuk> end script
[06:59] <AStorm> "is-running" is impossible yet. Just sleep instead :P
[06:59] <Keybuk> right, but how do you know if someone stops the job when you weren't looking? :p
[07:00] <Keybuk> if you don't care, then omit the "script ... end script" bit
[07:00] <AStorm> Well...
[07:00] <Keybuk> (and replace with exec sleep inf until I fix this bug)
[07:00] <AStorm> Exactly, don't care.
[07:00] <Keybuk> ok
[07:00] <AStorm> Stupidity is not rewarded :P
[07:00] <Keybuk> so this gives you a job that will start and stop any gentoo job when it, itself, is started and stopped
[07:00] <AStorm> And init scripts are disallowed to call stop on others explicitly
[07:00] <AStorm> (Gentoo policy)
[07:00] <Keybuk> of course, you need to mark this "instance" because you want multiple copies running
[07:00] <AStorm> Yes.
[07:00] <AStorm> But I need a match on $JOB
[07:01] <Keybuk> now, you'll want an event to start up an instance for a given job
[07:01] <Keybuk> and another event to stop an instance for the same job
[07:01] <Keybuk> easiest way to define that
[07:01] <AStorm> to start its deps earlier
[07:01] <Keybuk> initctl emit gentoo-start -eGENTOO_JOB=NAMEOFJOB
[07:01] <Keybuk> initctl emit gentoo-stop -eGENTOO_JOB=NAMEOFJOB
[07:01] <AStorm> Yes.
[07:01] <Keybuk> so stick in the gentoo job file
[07:01] <Keybuk> start on gentoo-start
[07:01] <Keybuk> stop on gentoo-stop
[07:01] <AStorm> But then, the deps are to be given as the parameters still
[07:01] <AStorm> (because of the need system)
[07:01] <Keybuk> and use $GENTOO_JOB throughout
[07:01] <AStorm> or the single script won't work
[07:01] <Keybuk> (getting to dependencies)
[07:02] <AStorm> Can I do a match like:
[07:02] <AStorm> on gentoo-start GENTOO_JOB=xyz *
[07:02] <Keybuk> no
[07:02] <AStorm> or would the DEPS variable be ignored?
[07:02] <AStorm> (if I don't match on it)
[07:02] <Keybuk> question
[07:02] <Keybuk> how would you like deps to be handled?
[07:03] <Keybuk> if you start FOO, should it cause its deps to be started?
[07:03] <AStorm> Yes.
[07:03] <Keybuk> right
[07:03] <AStorm> and then foo itself.
[07:03] <Keybuk> so now we improve the "gentoo-start" event
[07:03] <AStorm> Yep.
[07:03] <Keybuk> initctl emit gentoo-stop -eGENTOO_JOB=NAMEOFJOB -eGENTOO_DEPS="dep1 dep2 dep3 dep4"
[07:03] <Keybuk> uh
[07:03] <Keybuk> s/-stop/-start/ :p
[07:03] <AStorm> Not a problem.
[07:03] <Keybuk> now that instance, when it gets started, has $GENTOO_JOB which is the job we actually want to run
[07:04] <Keybuk> (used in post-start and pre-stop)
[07:04] <AStorm> I'd love to avoid parsing the GENTOO_DEPS though. there's no way yet, right?
[07:04] <AStorm> (like just putting on started $GENTOO_DEPS)
[07:04] <AStorm> Or rather:
[07:04] <AStorm> when $GENTOO_DEPS
[07:04] <Keybuk> and that instance also has $GENTOO_DEPS
[07:04] <Keybuk> so the simplest way is to add
[07:04] <Keybuk> pre-start script
[07:04] <AStorm> which would expand to when dep1 and when dep2 and when dep3
[07:04] <Keybuk>    for DEP in $GENTOO_DEPS; initctl emit gentoo-start $DEP; done
[07:04] <Keybuk> end script
[07:05] <Keybuk> that wouldn't do what you want
[07:05] <Keybuk> that would emulate the second kind of system
[07:05] <AStorm> It would do it too :-)
[07:05] <AStorm> Ah, right.
[07:05] <AStorm> the need would add when
[07:05] <AStorm> the use would add on
[07:05] <AStorm> :-)
[07:05] <AStorm> that's the catch
[07:05] <AStorm> Or even better.
[07:05] <AStorm> use would still add when
[07:05] <AStorm> after would add on
[07:05] <Keybuk> err?
[07:06] <AStorm> before would work like after, but backwards
[07:06] <AStorm> Gentoo has 4 kinds of deps:
[07:06] <Keybuk> nope, completely lost me
[07:06] <AStorm> need, use, before and after
[07:06] <AStorm> need means a hard dependency
[07:06] <Keybuk> need implies that if you try and start $JOB, then its dependencies come up first
[07:06] <AStorm> so we should get restarted when the dependency is
[07:06] <Keybuk> ?
[07:06] <AStorm> Yes
[07:07] <AStorm> But also when you restart that dependency, the package itself is restarted too. Like when
[07:07] <AStorm> use is like when, but optional - that's only a problem for dependency precalculator, to see if the thing is added to the runlevel and add the dep then
[07:07] <Keybuk> ok
[07:08] <AStorm> after and before are for ordering, doable using on.
[07:08] <Keybuk> random thought; I wouldn't pass $UPSTART_DEPS as part of the evnet
[07:08] <Keybuk> s/UPSTART/GENTOO/
[07:08] <Keybuk> in the pre-start script, I'd parse the gentoo init script to get them
[07:08] <AStorm> Hmm...
[07:08] <Keybuk> that way you don't need to duplicate code everywhere
[07:08] <AStorm> And add the aliases there too?
[07:08] <Keybuk> right
[07:08] <AStorm> Would be very fat.
[07:08] <AStorm> Bad idea.
[07:09] <AStorm> I can precalculate them.
[07:09] <Keybuk> yeah, but you have a single job then which handles the entire case of starting and stopping a gentoo init script
[07:09] <Keybuk> and just needs the name
[07:09] <Keybuk> rather than trying to duplicate the code everywhere
[07:09] <AStorm> Yes.
[07:09] <Keybuk> you'd need the "extract list of deps" code in several places, otherwise
[07:09] <AStorm> But parsing is slow.
[07:09] <AStorm> I want to avoid this slowness by parsing once.
[07:09] <AStorm> Just once - in adding the deps :-)
[07:10] <AStorm> E.g. in gentoo depscan.sh
[07:10] <AStorm> The deps would be perfectly calculated using that.
[07:10] <AStorm> and then just set in the script, like a simple list
[07:10] <AStorm> WHEN_DEPS="abc def ghi" ON_DEPS="xyz zy"
[07:11] <Keybuk> right
[07:11] <Keybuk> but then the job doesn't need to care about its deps, surely?
[07:12] <Keybuk> if their parsed elsewhere, they can be handled elsewhere as well
[07:12] <AStorm> Ugh... I'd prefer to have upstart order them
[07:12] <AStorm> parallelise them
[07:12] <AStorm> and not do that myself :-)
[07:12] <Keybuk> right
[07:12] <Keybuk> but then you end up with the situation where the job doesn't just need to know *its* deps
[07:13] <Keybuk> it needs the list of deps for every one if its deps
[07:13] <AStorm> Yep
[07:13] <Keybuk> and their deps
[07:13] <AStorm> I could generate multiple job files, well
[07:13] <AStorm> with the deps pregenerated
[07:13] <AStorm> but the only catch is that I'd have to regenerate some if a "use" dependency changed. Not that bad.
[07:14] <AStorm> More clutter and puts the init code generator in the depscan.sh
[07:14] <Keybuk> I can see quite easily how to convert a Gentoo init script into an Upstart job
[07:14] <AStorm> Yes, it's damn simple most of the time
[07:14] <_ion> What do you need the gentoo-start job for? Wouldn't it be enough just to start the existing rc script?
[07:14] <Keybuk> but how to make a generic job that emulates the behaviour, without that job parsing the Gentoo init script, not sure
[07:14] <AStorm> Just the script
[07:14] <AStorm> _ion, for the deps
[07:15] <AStorm> gentoo init script uses #!/sbin/runscript.sh
[07:15] <Keybuk> the existing rc script handles all the deps :p
[07:15] <_ion> I mean, the existing thing already handles the dependencies.
[07:15] <Keybuk> it's not mad to try and replace it though
[07:15] <AStorm> Yes.
[07:15] <AStorm> But it's evil.
[07:15] <Keybuk> e.g. we could have a sysv layer that iterated /etc/rc.d itself, etc.
[07:15] <AStorm> It's damned slow
[07:15] <AStorm> Keybuk, indeed. But then, I just need to mutate rc-update :P
[07:16] <AStorm> And add some additional event parsing, like for reload and others.
[07:16] <AStorm> So I'll just add a converter.
[07:16] <AStorm> Hope it turns out well... would have to detect start-stop-daemon pidfile handling, not that bad.
[07:16] <Keybuk> sounds like a fun project <g>
[07:16] <AStorm> (of course, it wouldn't detect some broken scripts :P )
[07:16] <_ion> Wouldn't that be a motivator for people to migrate their scripts to upstart jobs? :-) Then one nice day you notice that nobody uses the compatibility layer anymore.
[07:17] <AStorm> _ion, yep :-)
[07:17] <_ion> The slowness, that is.
[07:17] <AStorm> The broken scripts more so
[07:17] <AStorm> like mysql one, it does a lot of weird things
[07:17] <AStorm> Like checking the config on running, which should rather be done by hand
[07:18] <AStorm> _ion, I already have a crappy compat layer :P
[07:18] <AStorm> Want it to become a bit better, so that I can sell upstart performance
[07:18] <AStorm> (even on Gentoo init scripts converted to upstart scripts)
[07:19] <AStorm> along with daemon autorestarting for some cases (where I can easily detect that a daemon is launched)
[07:19] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/cant-stop-execless-job.patch
[07:19] <Keybuk> ^ that fixes the bug that means you need "exec sleep inf"
[07:19] <AStorm> Keybuk, thanks :-)
[07:20] <AStorm> Applying now :-)
[07:20] <AStorm> The only minus is that I have to muck with that stupid configure script
[07:20] <AStorm> that tries to install docs into PREFIX, and some other things too
[07:20] <AStorm> instead of using EPREFIX
[07:21] <AStorm> Blah, the other way around
[07:22] <AStorm> Ugh, my badness, checked what I passed in the logs :P
[07:22] <Keybuk> it does?
[07:23] <AStorm> No, it doesn't. A brain fart.
[07:23] <Keybuk> :p
[07:24] <AStorm> Hmm, the ChangeLog conflicted :P
[07:24] <AStorm> (expected - the patch is probably against bzr)
[07:24] <Keybuk> yes
[07:25] <AStorm> Ok, now on to more hacking - writing that basic layer
[07:26] <Keybuk> hmm
[07:26] <Keybuk> initctl stop doesn't hang for me here
[07:26] <AStorm> and then to some converter
[07:26] <AStorm> Keybuk, it shouldn't
[07:26] <AStorm> I just supposed it would. I mean the job should be set as waiting
[07:26] <AStorm> but then stopped only on explicit stop
[07:27] <AStorm> Or even maybe... just hold in the running state.
[07:27] <AStorm> Even better.
[07:27] <Keybuk> you can do that
[07:27] <AStorm> Will it be running?
[07:27] <AStorm> (until stopped, that is)
[07:27] <Keybuk> you've got the source in front of you?
[07:27] <Keybuk> look at doc/states.png
[07:28] <Keybuk> that's the state transition diagram
[07:28] <Keybuk> notice that pre-stop blister at the top right
[07:28] <Keybuk> pre-stop is special
[07:28] <Keybuk> when you run "stop JOB" or when an event that the job has in "stop on EVENT" is emitted ...
[07:28] <AStorm> Ok, nice :-)
[07:28] <Keybuk> ... the job goes into pre-stop instead of stopping
[07:28] <AStorm> Good.
[07:28] <Keybuk> the pre-stop script can therefore decide to delay the stop
[07:28] <AStorm> That's what I expected.
[07:28] <Keybuk> or even revert it altogether
[07:29] <AStorm> (it won't delay)
[07:29] <Keybuk> in "pre-stop script", if the job cannot be stopped, just run "start" :)
[07:29] <AStorm> The task is set to stopped after post-stop, right?
[07:29] <Keybuk> there's no "stopped" state
[07:29] <Keybuk> if you mean when does the stopped event get emitted, that is after post-stop, yes
[07:29] <AStorm> Yes.
[07:29] <AStorm> Good.
[07:30] <AStorm> the pre-start is ran when?
[07:31] <AStorm> just before the start itself, right?
[07:31] <AStorm> with the starting event emitted, or no? (vetoable?)
[07:31] <AStorm> and the started is after post-start?
[07:31] <AStorm> I'm reading the graph right?
[07:32] <Keybuk> starting is emitted
[07:32] <Keybuk> then pre-start is run
[07:32] <Keybuk> then the "exec"/"script" process (if any) is spawned
[07:32] <Keybuk> then post-start is run
[07:32] <Keybuk> then started is emitted
[07:32] <Keybuk> --
[07:32] <Keybuk> pre-stop is run
[07:32] <Keybuk> then stopping is emitted
[07:32] <Keybuk> then the "exec"/"script" process (if any) is killed
[07:33] <Keybuk> then post-stop is run
[07:33] <Keybuk> then stopped is emitted
[07:33] <AStorm> What about when pre-start vetoes?
[07:33] <Keybuk> --
[07:33] <AStorm> Is the stopping emitted?
[07:33] <Keybuk> if pre-start runs "stop", then you get stopping and stopped emitted
[07:33] <AStorm> Hmm...
[07:33] <Keybuk> (red line out of pre-start)
[07:33] <AStorm> Bad for my health :P
[07:33] <AStorm> I'd just like to veto a start
[07:33] <AStorm> Go back to waiting then deleted maybe...
[07:34] <AStorm> Some way.
[07:34] <AStorm> So that whichever got started due to starting event, is there
[07:34] <Keybuk> tbh, I can't remember why starting/pre-start are that way round, but pre-stop/stopping are the other way around
[07:34] <AStorm> (even if it's listening on stopped)
[07:35] <Keybuk> you can do that in an odd way
[07:35] <AStorm> Ah right.
[07:35] <AStorm> a fail event
[07:35] <Keybuk> if you have something that does "start on starting"
[07:35] <AStorm> This won't call the stopping, right?
[07:35] <Keybuk> then it can look at $1, and call "stop $1" :)
[07:35] <AStorm> Hmm.
[07:36] <Keybuk> (the theory is that pre-start's "opposite job" is post-stop)
[07:36] <AStorm> Because those Gentoo scripts are pesky and I want to emulate the whole behaviour
[07:36] <Keybuk> so if you run pre-start, you always need to run post-stop
[07:36] <Keybuk> and because post-stop is run, you'd get a stopped event
[07:36] <Keybuk> so you need some kind of starting event first
[07:36] <AStorm> the brokenness is that the deps aren't stopped when the task fails to start
[07:36] <AStorm> (e.g. due to checkconfig)
[07:37] <Keybuk> and since you have a starting event, you also need a stopping event, since some things might run between those two things
[07:37] <AStorm> And I'd have to do that in the script itself then :P
[07:37] <Keybuk> that's possible in upstart
[07:37] <AStorm> And can't dep on started :/
[07:37] <Keybuk> gentoo-start/failed
[07:37] <AStorm> Hmm.
[07:37] <AStorm> I know.
[07:37] <Keybuk> that event will be emitted if the job it tried to start failed to start
[07:37] <AStorm> They'd have to depend on both the usual and the failed :P
[07:37] <AStorm> Brokenness emulated bug for bug.
[07:38] <AStorm> The slash is required, or can I write on started gentoo-start failed?
[07:38] <AStorm> or even * there?
[07:38] <Keybuk> slash is required
[07:38] <Keybuk> since it's a different event
[07:38] <AStorm> Ah, ok.
[07:38] <AStorm> Not a problem.
[07:39] <Keybuk> you could also do something like; exit 1 from pre-start to fail the job
[07:39] <Keybuk> then you get a "gentoo-job stopping failed pre-start" event :p
[07:39] <AStorm> But that wouldn't launch the deps.
[07:39] <AStorm> I want to emulate bug for bug :P
[07:40] <AStorm> I think I'll go with the "multiple files" approach.
[07:41] <AStorm> code duplication all right, but will look more like handwritten code
[07:41] <AStorm> the runscript would still have to be modified anyway, to disable its own dep resolution
[07:41] <Keybuk> right
[07:41] <Keybuk> dinner
[07:42] <Keybuk> bbl
[07:42] <Keybuk> enjoy
[07:42] <AStorm> Or is there a way to bypass #! line?
[07:42] <Keybuk> sure sh -escript
[07:42] <AStorm> Great.
[07:45] <AStorm> Hmm, even the "when" would be too far
[07:45] <AStorm> Just on
[07:46] <AStorm> stop on stopping ourdep
[07:46] <AStorm> Because that's broken in Gentoo init scripts too :P
[07:48] <AStorm> Blah, even better
[07:48] <AStorm> I just need to source the given init script
[07:48] <AStorm> then call its "start" function
[07:48] <AStorm> the more problematic would be reload which some scripts have
[07:48] <AStorm> Which doesn't necessarily just restart the app.
[07:49] <AStorm> Though that could be just an another handler, e.g. on some parameter
[07:49] <AStorm> So you could do: initctl emit xyzzy reload
[07:49] <AStorm> or initctl emit xyzzy stop
[07:49] <AStorm> Or better, initctl stop xyzzy
[07:50] <AStorm> Simple then.
[07:50] <AStorm> Just read OPTS variable.
[07:51] <AStorm> (gets sourced in)
[07:51] <AStorm> the reload is the default one
[07:51] <AStorm> If not present, it's just start/stop, will have to emulate that somehow.
[07:59] <AStorm> Probably by defining our own bash function, then sourcing. This will override our own definition.
[08:02] <AStorm> Wouldn't it be nice to have the reload event separated from restarting, generally?
[08:03] <AStorm> E.g. special events "reloading xyzzy" "reloaded xyzzy"
[08:04] <AStorm> But then... the reload xyz would just emit these simply and call pre-reload
[08:04] <AStorm> reload
[08:04] <AStorm> and post-reload
[08:04] <AStorm> Actually, just launch a reload event with reloading and reloaded. No need for special syntax :>
[08:05] <_ion> That could be useful. Let's ask Keybuk's thoughts about it when he returns.
[08:10] <AStorm> Of course, the states would only be emitted if the event had reload in it.
[08:12] <AStorm> and add the initctl function reload
[08:12] <AStorm> it'd fail if the event wouldn't support it
[08:13] <AStorm> s/wouldn't/didn't/
[08:15] <AStorm> could just fall back to stop/start
[08:16] <AStorm> or just start if not running
[08:30] <AStorm> Temporarily, I'll just create more events
[08:31] <AStorm> Actually, I'll use a parameter.
[08:31] <AStorm> These become just $1, $2 etc?
[08:56] <AStorm> I'm wondering... how to avoid checking filesystems from the same drive in parallel
[08:56] <AStorm> Hmm.
[08:57] <AStorm> Maybe just something simple... I'd do away with the fstab anyway - it'd be parsed.
[09:00] <AStorm> Well, the simplest would be to just sort based on the drive ID, using standard Unix device names... but that'd break with LVM and some Udev manglings
[09:01] <AStorm> LVM can be worked around by parsing lvs
[09:01] <AStorm> But don't know about udev...
[09:03] <_ion> The Ubuntu people might have a solution for that problem. They've surely had to think about it, as they're going to implement that for the next release.
[09:04] <_ion> Better ask Keybuk.
[09:04] <AStorm> Hmm... or maybe not :P
[09:04] <AStorm> Maybe they just punted at the problem - the scanning will just get slower
[09:04] <AlexExtreme> Keybuk said he would release an upstart-based init sequence for ubuntu today or tomorrow, we should wait to see what's been done there
[09:05] <AStorm> Great, just great. I shall see.
[09:05] <AStorm> Uh, yes, md would be problematic too (no, not you)
[09:05] <AlexExtreme> :P
[09:05] <AStorm> RAID and stuff - you don't know which is on which physical disc.
[09:06] <AStorm> Would need physical FS data.
[09:06] <AStorm> Hmm... there is an option...
[09:06] <AStorm> parsing /proc/diskstats
[09:07] <AStorm> Just do a simple read on each of the partitions
[09:07] <AStorm> and see which disk's stats got upped
[09:07] <AStorm> But that'd have to be done in single mode.
[09:09] <AStorm> If one could get a hardware Udev id...
[09:09] <AStorm> But then, that doesn't tell us anything about LVM or RAID. Though these can be worked around.
[09:10] <arachnist> wasn't upstart supposed to be crossplatform? i'm quite sure that /proc/diskstats is nonexistant on bsd's, even with linprocfs mounted on /proc
[09:10] <AlexExtreme> well
[09:10] <AlexExtreme> this would be in the job files
[09:11] <AlexExtreme> which are distro specific
[09:11] <AStorm> :>
[09:11] <arachnist> oh, ok
[09:12] <AStorm> Ok.
[09:12] <AStorm> udevinfo returns the hardware ID.
[09:12] <AStorm> One problem less. Now I'll check the LVM.
[09:17] <AStorm> Hmm, udevinfo is useless against LVM or RAID.
[09:17] <AStorm> But these fortunately have their own tools. RAID has mdstatus
[09:17] <AStorm> LVM has lvs
[09:18] <AStorm> The parsing would be done by a special util, so as not to slow down the startup. Will write such a script now.
[09:21] <AStorm> lvs+pvs for LVM (converting to physical device), udevinfo for physical volumes
[09:21] <AStorm> Don't remember md, so it'll have to wait.
[09:22] <Md> I think you are looking for /lib/udev/vol_id
[09:23] <_ion> Ubuntu added /lib/udev/watershed to the udev packaging recently, it should be helpful when multiple fscks are supposed to be run.
[09:23] <_ion> (i think)
[09:23] <AStorm> Md, that's one thing.
[09:24] <AStorm> No, udevinfo will be enough.
[09:24] <AStorm> vol_id requires the device path, so it's useless.
[09:24] <AlexExtreme> _ion, what does that do?
[09:24] <AStorm> Knowing the device path means I know everything.
[09:25] <AStorm> For knowing the LVM volumes, one just needs to run vgscan - and that's needed anyway
[09:26] <AStorm> vgscan, then parse lvs and pvs info
[09:26] <AStorm> then we get the device name.
[09:26] <AStorm> Which can be probed using udevinfo --name=device --query=env
[09:26] <AStorm> to get the unique hardware id
[09:27] <_ion> alexextreme: If you run /lib/udev/watershed sleep 2 twice, the other one won't be started until the first one has finished.
[09:27] <AlexExtreme> ah
[09:27] <AStorm> Even better :>
[09:28] <AStorm> One can just do some ls on sysfs
[09:28] <AStorm> to get where the device mappings are stored
[09:28] <AStorm> I'll see the libsysfs
[09:30] <AStorm> Yes, there is a tool in sysfsutils
[09:30] <AStorm> systool
[09:32] <AStorm> But why depend on an external tool, when few ls or finds will suffice?
[09:32] <AStorm> *a few
[09:33] <AStorm> The basic partitions are just subdirs of the drive subdirectory
[09:34] <AStorm> the device mappings are on their own, but they have the parition(s) they're contained in symlinked in slaves subdir
[09:35] <AStorm> Also, the partitions/discs have the symlink to the mappings in holders
[09:35] <AStorm> subdirectory
[09:36] <AStorm> Simple enough to write a script to detect that in realtime.
[09:38] <AStorm> Only swap partitions will have to be ignored...
[09:39] <AStorm> (/proc/swaps)
[09:39] <AStorm> Bah, can't use /proc/swaps.
[09:39] <AStorm> The entry won't be there yet, the swap isn't enabled.
[09:40] <_ion> Yay, i booted my computer using upstart 0.3.5 + my watch_delayed patch. It works.
[09:40] <AStorm> The simplest would be to create fsck.swap, which does nothing.
[09:43] <AStorm> How does one detect that a partition is swap in Linux? :>
[09:43] <AStorm> w/o trying to mount it
[09:45] <AStorm> Ah, right.
[09:45] <AStorm> mount -f -v
[09:46] <AStorm> Blah, that does print unknown only
[09:46] <AStorm> Any ideas?
[10:00] <phsdv> you do not want to look in /etc/fstab? I mean there could be swap partitions that I do not want to use
[10:01] <AlexExtreme> hmm
[10:01] <AlexExtreme> just installed herd 2 in vmware from an iso i downloaded a while back
[10:01] <AlexExtreme> "only" 409 updates :p
[10:03] <AlexExtreme> night
[10:04] <phsdv> night
[10:21] <AStorm> Blah, it's just a syscall, that swapon.
[10:35] <AStorm> Heh, the first page of swap contains a magic ID
[10:36] <AStorm> SWAP SPACE for old swap
[10:36] <AStorm> SWAPSPACE2 for newer one
[10:36] <AStorm> SWAP-SPACE for old
[10:36] <AStorm> old is unsupported in 2.6 AFAIK anyway, so we don't have to bother.
[10:36] <AStorm> The only thing I have to know is current page size.
[10:39] <AStorm> Now, the idea is - can I get the pagesize w/o launching any C code? :P
[10:39] <AStorm> (that and some head+tail would be enough for basic detection)
[10:51] <AStorm> In case of problems, I'll just punt and check the largest pagesize
[10:54] <AStorm> Ah, it should be in the libc headers.
[11:00] <AStorm> Ok, it's in Linux :P
[11:00] <AStorm> The largest number of bytes is 1 << 22
[11:00] <AStorm> That's some kind of sparc64
[11:00] <AStorm> Usually it's 1 << 12 or 4096
[11:01] <AStorm> 1 << 22 is... 4MB!
[11:01] <AStorm> Now that's some page :>
[11:04] <AStorm> I'd like to avoid grepping 4 MB of the swapfile, but oh well :P
[11:16] <AStorm> head -n 4m | grep -U SWAPSPACE2 is ok... but..
[11:17] <AStorm> I think that trying to swapon would be faster than that...
[11:17] <AStorm> though the simple check would be faster if I could somehow get the page size
[11:17] <AStorm> or write a tiny C prog "isswap"
[11:48] <_ion> Keybuk's dinner has taken a while. :-)
[11:51] <AStorm> Right.
[11:51] <AStorm> And I've finished that swap detector
[11:51] <AStorm> as a bonus, it detects old v1 swap space as non-swap
[11:51] <AStorm> so will bork :-)
[11:51] <AStorm> A special return code of 2
[11:51] <AStorm> 1 if not swap space
[11:51] <AStorm> 0 if swap space v2
[11:52] <AStorm> 254 for file open error
[11:52] <AStorm> 255 for argument error
[11:52] <AStorm> No usage (quite obvious - give it a device name)
[11:53] <AStorm> Uses mmap for extra speed :P
[11:53] <_ion> In case anyone's interested, this is the upstart patch i've been using for a while, it seems to do the right thing. http://soijabanaani.net/tmp/upstart_watch_delayed.diff
[11:54] <_ion> It compiles with the libnih from https://code.launchpad.net/~ion/+branch/libnih/watch-delayed


[01:32] <head_victim> adasiek_abix: actually the website you found is probably one of the better places to start. If you look at the top link "get involved" you'll find a link to a mailing list.
[01:33] <head_victim> adasiek_abix: I'd suggest sending an email to that list to ask the question. Give as much detail about what and why you're asking and hopefully you get a good response.
[06:11] <head_victim> sagaci: did you have the 4g modem being discussed on the ML?
[06:14] <sagaci> I do but I don't haven't had it with me for a few weeks and I "solved" the problem by buying a gateway to plug the USB into
[06:14] <sagaci> way too fiddly to get working
[06:35] <head_victim> Ah ok, I did remember you having problems at one stage but wasn't sure if you fixed them or not