[20:58] <j1mc> hey there :)
[20:59] <Rocket2DMn> hey guys
[20:59] <j1mc> hi connor
[21:00] <vtanthropologist> hi all
[21:00] <j1mc> hi vtanthropologist
[21:00] <j1mc> thanks for joining
[21:01] <j1mc> shall we get started? i'm not sure if as many people are going to join this time.
[21:01] <vtanthropologist> sure
[21:01] <j1mc> i'm ok with waiting a few more minutes, too.
[21:01] <Rocket2DMn> are we expecting anybody else?
[21:02] <j1mc> phil bull joined #ubuntu-docs not too long ago... he isn't normally on irc, so ...
[21:02] <j1mc> i'm hopeful that he'll join
[21:03] <vtanthropologist> so who are all those people in the sidebar?  do they just stay logged on to this channel permanently?
[21:03] <j1mc> mostly, yes
[21:03] <j1mc> ok, i guess we'll get started.
[21:03] <j1mc> #startmeeting
[21:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:03. The chair is j1mc.
[21:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:04] <j1mc> we have an agenda up here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
[21:05] <j1mc> with oneiric planning... i think maybe we should take that to the list.
[21:05] <j1mc> i think we'll get better discussion from everyone that way.
[21:05] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Oneiric planning
[21:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric planning
[21:05] <j1mc> what do you both think?
[21:06] <vtanthropologist> I haven't been involved enough to know what's needed
[21:07] <vtanthropologist> except ... a lot more
[21:07] <j1mc> heya philbull
[21:07] <vtanthropologist> hi philbull
[21:07] <philbull> hey, sorry, got the wrong channel
[21:07] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: fair enough
[21:07] <philbull> hi guys
[21:07] <Rocket2DMn> hey philbull
[21:07] <j1mc> let me see if i can find the link to the wiki page for oneiric planning
[21:07] <vtanthropologist> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric
[21:07] <Rocket2DMn> j1mc, are there any particular items for oneiric planning we want to discuss right now?
[21:08] <vtanthropologist> is that it?
[21:09] <j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric
[21:10] <jbicha> hi
[21:10] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: well, we have the wiki topic listed for later
[21:10] <j1mc> and we also are going to touch on gnome doc plans
[21:11] <j1mc> jbicha: howdy
[21:12] <j1mc> i think we can move on for now. we'll touch on the important parts as we progress through other topics.
[21:12] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Gnome app doc plans
[21:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  Gnome app doc plans
[21:12] <j1mc> there's actually some news to report on this
[21:13] <j1mc> philbull: would you want to talk about what happened in the past week on this?
[21:13] <philbull> Sure
[21:13] <philbull> From the GNOME perspective?
[21:14] <j1mc> that's fine... just the progress that was made
[21:14] <j1mc> the work that was done to generate topics for apps
[21:14] <philbull> Well, the GNOME docs team held a hackfest at the OpenHelp conference in Cincinnati this past week
[21:15] <philbull> The idea is to get as many GNOME applications' help converted over to Mallard/topic-based help as possible for GNOME 3.2
[21:15] <philbull> To that end, we stubbed-out a load of topics for a number of GNOME applications
[21:15] <philbull> (I'll be releasing a set of stubs some time this week, hopefully)
[21:15] <philbull> People can then take those stub topics, one at a time if they like, and write the content
[21:16] <philbull> Given enough people working on them, we can have a lot of the help converted over in very little time
[21:16] <philbull> (We managed to do this during the Toronto docs hackfest in March, but for the GNOME desktop help)
[21:16] <philbull> I think that's about it - we need to convert lots of apps over, and we will have a basic structure prepared very soon
[21:17] <philbull> Ubuntu should help out with this
[21:17] <j1mc> Cool.  Yes, I think we'll get some help from Ubuntu...
[21:17] <Rocket2DMn> Will we be using Gnome version 3.2 in Oneiric?
[21:17] <j1mc> ... but we can also get help from Fedora and OpenSUSE, too.
[21:18] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: good question. i would think so... the apps that we have oneiric right now are gtk3 apps.
[21:19] <j1mc> we can follow-up, though.
[21:19] <j1mc> [ACTION] Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric.
[21:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric.
[21:20] <Rocket2DMn> yeah i'm looking at the alpha1 tech overview wiki page, i see that we have switched to gnome 3 which is good news
[21:20] <Rocket2DMn> not sure what trouble they will have transitioning Unity, but that's not really our problem except for any changes the user sees
[21:22] <j1mc> just one last point on this... i think it will make it easier for new contributors to help with writing docs. the topics will be stubbed-out, so all of the boilerplate will be taken care of.
[21:22] <j1mc> that should make things easier for anyone who wants to help.
[21:22] <j1mc> but... more info on that later, i guess.
[21:22] <j1mc> anything else on this for now?
[21:23] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Team strategy document
[21:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Team strategy document
[21:23] <j1mc> I don't really have an update on this. :) my last commit was a week or so ago
[21:24] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Ubuntu help website
[21:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu help website
[21:24] <j1mc> this is kinda interesting.
[21:25] <vtanthropologist> I haven't spent much time looking at the content to think about how it could be improved, but I've had to spend a bit of time on converting xml for a browser for another project
[21:25] <j1mc> i had a talk with jono late last week, and there seems to be more of a drive to improve help.ubuntu.com, but i'm not sure if they are eager to provide additional help, or what.
[21:25] <vtanthropologist> I feel more comfortable about the idea of helping build the site now - if you still need it
[21:26] <j1mc> at the close of our talk, he said he was going to send a note to the docs team ML, but maybe he hasn't had a chance to yet.
[21:26] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: cool
[21:26] <j1mc> for me, the big question is, are we at a point where we can mostly assume that people have access to the web?
[21:27] <j1mc> what do you think?
[21:27] <Rocket2DMn> j1mc, in most cases people do, but are we planning on adding documentation there that we won't ship as a package?
[21:27] <vtanthropologist> Having lived in a developing country and seen anyone with access to a pc having access to the web, I'd say yes
[21:27] <philbull> j1mc: In most cases, apart from the very important case where someone can't get their wireless drivers working
[21:28] <j1mc> jbicha: what do you think?
[21:28] <philbull> I guess people can ask to use a friend's internet connection
[21:28] <Rocket2DMn> j1mc, what are we getting at?
[21:28] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: yeah, i think that would be a possibility.
[21:29] <vtanthropologist> I agree with philbull that we need to cater for wireless outages, but in that case most people still have windows as a fallback
[21:29] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i was thinking of something like http://support.mozilla.com
[21:29] <j1mc> and having a subset of those docs on-disk
[21:29] <philbull> Another issue is translation
[21:30] <j1mc> there is also http://support.mozilla.com/es/home
[21:31] <j1mc> i don't know about this, either ... i'm not sure if this is the right way to go, and i don't want people to be driven into anything.
[21:32] <Rocket2DMn> It would be nice to have a portal like that to different documentation sources
[21:32] <Rocket2DMn> i'm not sure we can get away from shipping docs at this time, we don't even have a framework for posting translated docs online yet
[21:32]  * j1mc nods
[21:32] <Rocket2DMn> it was brought up in earlier discussions about doing that though, which i think would be great
[21:33] <Rocket2DMn> if that proves to be effective and maintainable, we might be able to look at moving away from shipping docs in 12.04
[21:36] <j1mc> i'm not sure what else to say on it for now... i think that having a stronger, more interactive web presence for help would be good, and it sounds like people are agreeable to it
[21:36] <j1mc> it's just a matter of criteria and resources
[21:37] <j1mc> other thoughts on this for now?
[21:37] <philbull> The Mozilla offering looks good (SuMo)
[21:37] <philbull> and it would be nice to have the community wiki docs and official docs available from the same interface
[21:38] <j1mc> one thing about SuMo is that they release weekly
[21:38] <j1mc> so it's a bit of a moving target. although it's open source, i don't know of any other groups that are using it.
[21:39] <j1mc> i wish we could have a hackfest to work together on this.
[21:40] <j1mc> philbull: i'll put our notes together and get them out on the mailing list.
[21:40] <philbull> great, thanks j1mc
[21:40] <j1mc> ok... next topic
[21:40] <j1mc> [TOPIC] server docs
[21:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  server docs
[21:41] <j1mc> the server team had a meeting where they asked about the update to the server docs
[21:41] <j1mc> adam sommer and the server group are interested in the format similar to docs.openstack.org
[21:41] <j1mc> and i'm going to get a test build together this week.
[21:42] <j1mc> aside from getting confirmation from the server group, nothing too knew to report on that for now, though.
[21:42] <j1mc> s/knew/new
[21:42] <j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog
[21:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  docs team blog
[21:43] <vtanthropologist> are you talking about having two different sites?  a SuMo-like help site and a openstack-like docs site?  isn't that overkill?
[21:43] <vtanthropologist> sorry. I missed the topic change
[21:44] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: good point. as a short-term thing, i think having the server docs in a nicer format would be good.
[21:44] <j1mc> if we have the build tools available, and we don't have to change the server docs too much, i think it's ok to go ahead with at least a draft attempt at the new layout.
[21:45] <vtanthropologist> so SuMo is a long-term vision?  but you're talking about 12.04
[21:45] <j1mc> i think so
[21:46] <j1mc> right now, we don't have much in the line of support for web resources, so ... that will take more time to sort out, i think.
[21:47] <vtanthropologist> it seems like too many conflicting focuses to me
[21:47] <j1mc> it's a lot of work, yes
[21:47] <j1mc> what do others think?
[21:48] <charlie-tca> Can I throw my two cents in?
[21:48] <Rocket2DMn> i think i got confused on our topics - are we talking about the blog or about a new web interface to the docs?
[21:49] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: we went back to the web-talk, sorry about that
[21:49] <j1mc> charlie-tca: sure
[21:49] <charlie-tca> I have been using Ubuntu/Xubuntu for about 6 years now.
[21:49] <charlie-tca> I have been helping with support in IRC for about three
[21:50] <charlie-tca> I do think having the docs on the web would be at least as helpful as on the CD, since most people will not look for docs anywhere but online
[21:50] <charlie-tca> The first thought in today's world is "google"
[21:51] <charlie-tca> and google seldom says "look at your computer"
[21:51] <j1mc> :)
[21:51] <charlie-tca> Even when wireless fails, people do not look at their installed system for docs.
[21:51] <charlie-tca> Thanks for letting me say it.
[21:52] <j1mc> thanks, charlie-tca
[21:53] <j1mc> do other people think the short-term look at redoing server-docs, but progressing toward long-term getting the web-help in shape would be a good direction to go?
[21:53] <j1mc> or is it a conflict of sorts?
[21:53] <j1mc> i know it's a lot of work.
[21:53] <Rocket2DMn> i dont thikn that conflicts, the serverguide is already online-only
[21:54] <Rocket2DMn> but i think we need to continue shipping desktop docs for now
[21:54] <Rocket2DMn> people still report bugs about using the desktop help, so people are definitely using it
[21:54] <j1mc> :)
[21:54] <j1mc> others?
[21:54] <Rocket2DMn> (on their systems that is)
[21:54] <vtanthropologist> if the server docs will be minimal effort, it's probably ok, but I thought it would make more sense to put effort into one site and build it out for the other components as we can
[21:55]  * j1mc nods...
[21:55] <j1mc> i'll get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.
[21:56] <j1mc> i think this level of agreement is ok for this meeting though.
[21:56] <j1mc> [AGREED] jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.
[21:56] <MootBot> AGREED received:  jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.
[21:56] <ScottK> Please don't break the existing server guide.  It's pretty good.
[21:56] <j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog - for real
[21:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  docs team blog - for real
[21:56] <j1mc> ScottK: it'll stay in the same format. same docbook.
[21:57] <j1mc> ScottK: we'll talk more later
[21:57] <j1mc> mdke emailed canonical RT about docs.ubuntu.com
[21:57] <j1mc> but we haven't heard back
[21:58] <j1mc> any comments on the emails that went out about this?
[21:58] <Rocket2DMn> do other teams have a dedicated blog?
[21:59] <j1mc> i know that the server team does, and i think a11y does, too.
[21:59] <j1mc> there might be more
[21:59] <j1mc> design team...
[22:01] <j1mc> perhaps talk on this more once we hear back from RT?
[22:01] <stgraber> edubuntu does as well. QA too, release team too, ...
[22:02] <j1mc> ok... we'll wait on this a bit.
[22:02] <j1mc> i know we're just over our hour, but can we still talk about the wiki?
[22:03] <Rocket2DMn> i'm available if other teams dont have this time slot reserved
[22:03] <j1mc> ok - we'll try here...
[22:03] <j1mc> [TOPIC] Wiki cleanup
[22:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Wiki cleanup
[22:04] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: you had some good comments on the ML about this.
[22:05] <j1mc> have you had additional thoughts about it? anything you'd like to add?
[22:05] <Rocket2DMn> i've spent some time over the last couple of weeks deleting a lot of old wiki pages
[22:05] <Rocket2DMn> we could use help updating pages and/or tagging pages that need work or just need to be outright removed
[22:06] <j1mc> i think that would be a good start
[22:07] <Rocket2DMn> I have a question though
[22:07] <j1mc> would anyone be available to get the word out about this request?
[22:07] <j1mc> sure
[22:07] <Rocket2DMn> some pages that are translated into other languages are marked for deletion
[22:07] <Rocket2DMn> Do we support translated pages on the community docs?
[22:07] <Rocket2DMn> I don't think it's the correct place for them, but I've never gone out of my way to manage them
[22:08] <j1mc> good question... i would guess that the language coverage is pretty spotty, too.
[22:08] <Rocket2DMn> it is, I'm not sure how well the pages are maintained either
[22:09] <j1mc> is there an example page that you could point to?
[22:09] <j1mc> how do you know if a page is translated?
[22:09] <Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NlBluetooth
[22:09] <Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RussianDocumentation
[22:09] <Rocket2DMn> etc
[22:10] <j1mc> thanks, Rocket2DMn.
[22:11] <j1mc> should we bring these up on the ML?
[22:11] <j1mc> i would feel bad about just deleting them, but we have no idea what they say, and i doubt they receive much of a review.
[22:11] <j1mc> or i have no way of knowing if they are reviewed
[22:12] <Rocket2DMn> ML is fine with me
[22:13] <vtanthropologist> can a deleted page be restored or do you delete the history too?
[22:13] <Rocket2DMn> they can be restored
[22:13] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: do you have a blog on the planet? can you post about how to tag pages as outdated / needing review / recommended for deletion, or just point people to those pages on the wiki that describe how to do it?
[22:14] <Rocket2DMn> j1mc, i don't keep a blog
[22:14] <vtanthropologist> ok, so worst case if you don't get a response on the ML, deleting it should bring anyone that's been using it out of the woodwork
[22:15] <j1mc> ok... i can blog about it.
[22:15] <Rocket2DMn> vtanthropologist, if they are subscribed to the page, they should get an email
[22:15] <j1mc> Rocket2DMn: could you send a note out to the ML about the translations?
[22:16] <j1mc> (the wiki pages that have been translated)
[22:16] <Rocket2DMn> yeah
[22:16] <j1mc> ok. :)
[22:17] <j1mc> [ACTION] connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages
[22:17] <MootBot> ACTION received:  connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages
[22:17] <j1mc> [ACTION] jim to blog about tagging wiki pages
[22:17] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jim to blog about tagging wiki pages
[22:17] <j1mc> anything else for today?
[22:17] <Rocket2DMn> i dont have anything
[22:18] <vtanthropologist> nor me
[22:18] <j1mc> okies... thanks for joining all.  :)
[22:18] <j1mc> enjoy the rest of your sunday, wherever that may be.
[22:18] <j1mc> #endmeeting
[22:18] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:18.
[22:18] <vtanthropologist> Sunday finished 7 hours ago, but there's lots of Monday left to enjoy
[22:19] <vtanthropologist> :)
[22:19] <j1mc> i'll send the minutes and log to the ML
[22:19] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: i forget that you're in Australia. what part?
[22:19] <Rocket2DMn> thanks j1mc
[22:19] <vtanthropologist> Sydney
[22:19] <j1mc> cool. :)
[22:19] <vtanthropologist> I take it you're in the US
[22:19] <vtanthropologist> ?
[22:19] <j1mc> i just met someone from red hat in brisbane last week.
[22:19] <j1mc> but i heard brisbane is kind of a smaller city
[22:20] <j1mc> yes, i'm in the states
[22:20] <vtanthropologist> yep.  we call it Brisvagas
[22:20] <vtanthropologist> which part of the US?
[22:21] <j1mc> central... chicago area.
[22:21] <vtanthropologist> I liked Chicago.  I didn't get out of the city though
[22:21] <j1mc> vtanthropologist: are there certain doc areas where you might want to write some docs? any certain apps or topics areas?
[22:22] <vtanthropologist> I'd like to give it a go.  I was working with philbull on writing a better installation guide as pdf, but that lost momentum
[22:23] <vtanthropologist> I find it difficult to know where things are up to in the docs systems and I wonder if I know the apps well enough to write docs
[22:23] <j1mc> ok. we will have a better list of apps that need help soon.
[22:23] <vtanthropologist> I use the basics a lot, but the basic docs already seem to be covered
[22:24] <vtanthropologist> that's why I thought I could help with building the web site
[22:24] <j1mc> yeah, when we were brainstorming docs for seahorse... we were asking lots of questions like, "what is this?" "what does this do?"
[22:24] <j1mc> editing and review can be a good place to get situated, too.
[22:24] <j1mc> if you aren't sure where things are in the "docs ecosystem"
[22:24] <vtanthropologist> again, I can't find what needs reviewing.
[22:25] <vtanthropologist> exactly
[22:25] <j1mc> ok - i can write up something about that, too. that is good to know.
[22:25] <j1mc> i'm going to head-out... thanks for your input, vtanthropologist
[22:25] <vtanthropologist> I think there needs to be a much better onboarding process for interested newbies
[22:26] <vtanthropologist> yep.  have a good day
[22:26] <j1mc> thanks again.  ttyl


[05:33] <sebas5384> hey! o
[05:33] <sebas5384> o/
[05:33] <sebas5384> somebody know what happened with the service's settings in the juju-gui ?
[05:41] <rick_h_> sebas5384: what do you mean?
[05:41] <sebas5384> rick_h_: it isn't appearing anymore
[05:43] <rick_h_> sebas5384: umm, no but thakns for mentioning it. We'll get folks right on it
[05:43] <rick_h_> huwshimi: any time left in the day? ^
[05:43] <sebas5384> http://awesomescreenshot.com/0154cnfkad
[05:43] <huwshimi> rick_h_: Yep, let me take a look
[05:44] <sebas5384> thanks rick_h_ !
[05:44] <rick_h_> sebas5384: yep, can replicate on demo.jujucharms.com as well
[05:44] <rick_h_> sebas5384: ty, will file a bug and get the guys on it right away
[05:47] <rick_h_> huwshimi: added a card marked critical with a bug on it. I assigned it to hatch assuming you'll not have time in your day to complete it but plese leave notes/etc either in the bug or the card
[05:48] <huwshimi> rick_h_: Yep, sure thing. I can see there's an error there so I'll try and track that down and see how I go.
[05:48] <rick_h_> huwshimi: review done?
[05:48] <huwshimi> rick_h_: Sure is :)
[05:48] <rick_h_> huwshimi: <3
[05:51] <sebas5384> rick_h_ and huwshimi thanks for the fast response :)
[05:52] <rick_h_> sebas5384: np, not sure how that one slipped by but hopefully it's a small fix do to some new apis we're using and should be fast. We'll try to get a new rev'd charm out by EOD
[05:52] <rick_h_> US EOD that is
[05:52] <sebas5384> I'm going to demonstrate juju gui at a conference tuesday
[05:53] <rick_h_> sebas5384: you'll definitely have it by then
[05:53] <rick_h_> sebas5384: fyi, the icon thing is a bug in chrom v40 we're tracking upstream
[05:53] <rick_h_> sebas5384: so FF is currently the best demo browser unfortunately
[05:53] <rick_h_> sebas5384: until chrome fixes the svg issue and get it into a release
[05:55] <rick_h_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-gui/+bug/1415550 for tracking
[05:55] <mup> Bug #1415550: Charm's SVG icons with wrong size in Chrome <icon> <svg> <juju-gui:Confirmed> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1415550>
[05:56] <sebas5384> yeah definitively rick_h_ i'm going to use it with firefox for now
[05:57] <rick_h_> sebas5384: looking at the upstream bug though looks like v41 will include a fix yay!
[05:58] <sebas5384> rick_h_: uhuu!
[05:58] <sebas5384> :)
[05:59] <huwshimi> rick_h_: So it looks like hatch landed a branch which fixed this a couple of days ago: https://github.com/juju/juju-gui/commit/9dabbda4597c53545fc9ed912165a583d3fd1337
[06:00] <huwshimi> rick_h_: I've rolled back to the commit before that and confirmed that the bug was there before that commit.
[06:00] <huwshimi> rick_h_: devel should be fine now.
[06:02] <rick_h_> huwshimi: ok, awesome. We should get a release rolling then. I'll make sure to bug hatch about it
[06:02] <rick_h_> huwshimi: can you email -peeps with your findings and I'll reply asking for the release today please?
[06:02] <huwshimi> rick_h_: Sure thing.
[06:03] <rick_h_> ty kindly
[06:09] <huwshimi> rick_h_: Sent!
[06:09] <rick_h_> huwshimi: awesome
[15:27] <hatch> frankban: wouldyou be able to point me to the correct place to inspect the path in guiserver? I was thinking the on_message method
[15:27] <frankban> hatch: looking at the code
[15:28] <hatch> tornado is very confusing
[15:30] <frankban> I've found it less confusing than other async frameworks
[15:31] <hatch> quite possible - it feels to me like it's shoehorning async into a language that isnt
[15:31] <hatch> (I wrote an async framework for php back in the day)
[15:31] <hatch> :)
[15:31] <hatch> but php didn't have yeild so I actually had an event loop lol
[15:32] <frankban> hatch: yield is just a way to avoid the callbacks hell
[15:34] <frankban> hatch: so, I'd presume you'll have to extend url routing in server/apps.py
[15:34] <frankban> hatch: right now only /ws$ is routed to the websocket handler
[15:35] <hatch> and what's the path supposed to be now?
[15:35] <hatch> won't it still be /ws/uuid/
[15:36] <frankban> hatch: to avoid confusion, I'd make them reflect the juju API server ones. so we need to keep handling /ws$ and add support for /ws/environment/:env_uuid:/api
[15:37] <frankban> hatch: so same as juju but in the ws/ namespace
[15:37] <hatch> oh so they actually added the "environment" keyword in there
[15:37] <hatch> I thought that was just a placeholder :)
[15:37] <frankban> hatch: heh, no, I think that's the real endpoint path
[15:38] <hatch> alright, is there a way I can test the api using curl or the like to see if that is indeed the endpoint?
[15:40] <frankban> hatch: I am pretty sure that's the real endpoint. however, for these kind of tests I usually use ipython + https://pypi.python.org/pypi/websocket-client/ (it's really quick with the latter to establish a websocket connection)
[15:41] <hatch> ahh cool
[15:41] <hatch> ok well first is gui release then I'll continue on your reivew comments and this
[15:41] <frankban> hatch: for instance, I use this script sometimes to watch env changes: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/10093532/
[15:41] <hatch> oh yeah...just tiny :P
[15:42] <frankban> heh but easy to change to make other calls
[17:09] <hatch> makyo_: didn't you do a guicharm release in 2015?
[17:09] <hatch> https://jujucharms.com/juju-gui/trusty/17 see the revisions list
[17:10] <hatch> or was that updated but never released?
[17:59] <hatch> makyo_: whenever you return I'm wondering if something borked up becuase there is no git tag to match 1.3.0
[17:59] <hatch> wait there is on trunk...hmm
[18:00] <makyo_> https://github.com/juju/juju-gui/releases/tag/1.3.0 ?
[18:00] <hatch> might help if I used the --tags
[18:00] <hatch> *facepalm*
[18:01] <makyo_> Whew
[18:01] <makyo_> Had me worried
[18:01] <hatch> so that's one problem down - now the charm release :)
[18:01] <hatch> Makyo: so did you push a new charm release and it maybe not make it onto jujucharms?
[18:02] <hatch> I was pretty sure you did one rather recently
[18:02] <hatch> in fact http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~juju-gui-charmers/charms/trusty/juju-gui/trunk/files
[18:02] <hatch> you did
[18:02] <Makyo> I did, yeah.
[18:03] <Makyo> https://jujucharms.com/trusty/juju-gui in the releases dir is juju-gui-1.3.0.xz
[18:03] <Makyo> So maybe the changelog is borked?
[18:05] <hatch> hmm yeah that's odd
[18:06] <hatch> ok well I'll just go on the assumption that it's the UI that's a little busted because the code all looks good
[18:34] <hatch> Makyo: was sphinx supposed to be in the sysdeps?
[18:35] <hatch> oh it is....ok then...hmm
[19:12] <hatch> code release done - commits can resume to the gui
[19:13] <hatch> still working on the charm side


[10:26] <sileht> zul, jamespage, coreycb, ddellav, hi I uncounter a qemu live-migration issue from trusty to xenial https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qemu/+bug/1641532
[10:26] <sileht> zul, jamespage, coreycb, ddellav, I thnk this should be fixed before openstack user try to upgrade from mitaka to newton
[10:27] <cpaelzer> sileht: known issue, let me find and point you to the right one
[10:27] <cpaelzer> STS working on it arm
[10:27] <cpaelzer> atm
[10:27] <cpaelzer> at least it seems that way
[10:28] <cpaelzer> grr no meeting minutes uploaded last week
[10:29] <jamespage> sileht, I was about to point you to cpaelzer but I see he's jumped in
[10:29] <jamespage> :)
[10:29] <jamespage> thanks cpaelzer
[10:32]  * cpaelzer is still checking - envision a spinning wheel here - \ | / - ...
[10:33] <sileht> :)
[10:34] <cpaelzer> sileht: not a dup to the one I thought - now context switching into the bug more
[10:35] <sileht> cpaelzer, I have tested the patch I have attached to the bug report on my cluster and it works well
[10:36] <cpaelzer> sileht: yeah I'd even say ack after 2 minutes looking at it - but I'd like to look at it at least a bit more :-)
[10:36] <cpaelzer> sileht: I recently cleaned up a lot of this machine type mess, but due to LTS cycles we could only drop old cruft after LTS
[10:36] <cpaelzer> sileht: and atm I think you are right
[10:37] <cpaelzer> sileht: give me a bit and I'll fully agree :-)
[10:37] <sileht> cpaelzer, sure the patch as-is is enougth or do you want a proper debdiff ? or something else ?
[10:37] <cpaelzer> this is a can of nice worms
[10:37] <cpaelzer> sileht: I'm fine with the patch as-is
[10:37] <sileht> cool
[10:37] <cpaelzer> sileht: I have a testbed for just such migration issues where I'll test it
[10:38] <cpaelzer> sileht: I just never happened to use that old guests as "utopic"
[10:38] <sileht> cpaelzer, :)
[10:38] <cpaelzer> sileht: migrating after Xenial you'd be supposed to update the machine type to go on
[10:38] <cpaelzer> sileht: but for what you reported it is a valid issue
[10:39] <cpaelzer> sileht: so I'm now going on to check and test on this
[10:39] <sileht> cpaelzer, changing machine type means 'rebooting customer vm'
[10:39] <cpaelzer> sileht: I'll let you know
[10:39] <cpaelzer> sileht: yes it does
[10:39] <sileht> cpaelzer, I can't do that
[10:40] <cpaelzer> sileht: at some point old things have to go out of support - that is why we (after long discussion) decided to drop older types after an LTS and only those types that are "out of support" then
[10:40] <sileht> cpaelzer, I have very old VM with just 'pc-i440fx' and it still work fine
[10:40] <sileht> cpaelzer, yeah I understand but 2.0 machine type is still supported upstream
[10:41] <cpaelzer> sileht: I fully understand your case and pain - but at some point it becomes a matter of maintainability
[10:41] <sileht> cpaelzer, the custom ubuntu machine type just break think
[10:41] <sileht> think/thing
[10:41] <cpaelzer> sileht: yeah it is a shame - the early days of qemu machine types forced all dirstibutions to go the "custom machine type way"
[10:41] <cpaelzer> sileht: these days it might mostly be fine
[10:41] <cpaelzer> sileht: but everybody has to obey his history
[10:42] <cpaelzer> sileht: and now time comes and makes things non maintainable :-/
[10:42] <cpaelzer> sileht: all distributions are in the same mess here - but there is no golden solution (IMHO)
[10:42] <cpaelzer> sileht: on one side you have the valid "the upstream type still works" - but that is only true in most but not all cases
[10:43] <cpaelzer> sileht: and on the other you can't care about the old delta forever as it less and less applies to the new code
[10:44] <cpaelzer> sileht: there was a lot of info (and less "discussion" than I'd liked) around it - let me know if you want some pointers
[10:44] <cpaelzer> sileht: I'll now go for your fix
[10:44]  * cpaelzer declares machine-types a never ending can of worms
[10:44] <sileht> agreed !
[10:47] <cpaelzer> and it did not help that the way to define them was changed three times in the last 2 years
[11:31] <cpaelzer> sileht: I think this is all worse than we thought - may I ask what you did to do the check that lead you to "...I have seen that in 2.3, the utopic machine is a kvm-2.3 machine..." ?
[11:32] <sileht> cpaelzer, I have looks at the code of qemu-system-x86 1:2.3+dfsg-5ubuntu9.4~cloud2
[11:32] <cpaelzer> sileht: ah so just reading
[11:32] <cpaelzer> sileht: I thought you'd have a live check better than mine
[11:33] <sileht> cpaelzer, the code in the define-ubuntu-machine-types.patch
[11:33] <cpaelzer> sileht: sure IMHO it is more broken than that
[11:33] <cpaelzer> sileht: it inherits whatever the latest version is
[11:33] <sileht> cpaelzer, it uses pc_init_pci
[11:33] <sileht> cpaelzer, and at this times that was 2.3 marchine
[11:34] <cpaelzer> sileht: so while your utopic type on a 2.3 host had 2.3 it would have had 2.1 in a real utopic for example
[11:34] <sileht> cpaelzer, I just hope ubuntu never release a 2.4 with 'pc_init_pci' :p
[11:35] <sileht> cpaelzer, oh I see
[11:35] <cpaelzer> sileht: so that is super worse than I thought at first :-/
[11:35] <cpaelzer> sileht: I could fix it to what it should have been, but that would not help you (=2.1)
[11:35] <cpaelzer> sileht: in fact I'd have to choose on "when did the last geust restart happen"
[11:36] <cpaelzer> where it picked up the latest type
[11:36] <sileht> cpaelzer, utopic was shipped qemu 2.1 ?
[11:37] <cpaelzer> yes
[11:37] <sileht> cpaelzer, trusty was 2.1 and cloud-archive have backport the utopic 2.3 to trusty, no ?
[11:37] <cpaelzer> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qemu/+publishinghistory?batch=75&memo=75&start=75
[11:38] <cpaelzer> sileht: trusty 2.0, utopic 2.1, vivid 2.2, wily 2.3, xenial 2.5, yakkety 2.6
[11:38] <cpaelzer> sileht: depends on which cloud archive you have
[11:39] <sileht> cpaelzer, so this a bug of the cloud archive backport
[11:39] <cpaelzer> I don't really think so - is it?
[11:39] <cpaelzer> it is a bug that was there a long time but now bites us in the worst possible way (for fixing one has to choose who to break)
[11:40] <sileht> cpaelzer, yes this is what I would say
[11:42] <sileht> cpaelzer, I would said the 'main' qemu should stick 2.1 and the cloud-archive one should use "2.3"
[11:42] <sileht> cpaelzer, that should limit the breakage ?
[11:44] <cpaelzer> only for one "sort of UCA" - you have qemu 2.3 because you have the liberty UCA I assume
[11:44] <sileht> cpaelzer, exaclty
[11:44] <cpaelzer> but what about one that comes from U/J/K ?
[11:44] <cpaelzer> they will have the other versions
[11:45] <sileht> cpaelzer, I was using debian before and the machine for those VM is 'pc-i440fx'
[11:45] <sileht> cpaelzer, and I have no pb with them
[11:45] <cpaelzer> I wish the past wouldn't have forced us onto the specific type route
[11:45] <cpaelzer> but none of us can change that
[11:46] <cpaelzer> sileht: hmm, the pc-i440fx is also only a pointer to latest
[11:47] <sileht> cpaelzer, let's me check what I really have currently running
[11:49] <sileht> cpaelzer, I have this currently on my cluster:
[11:49] <sileht> pc-i440fx-2.1,accel=kvm,usb=off
[11:49] <sileht> pc-i440fx-utopic,accel=kvm,usb=off
[11:49] <sileht> pc-i440fx-vivid,accel=kvm,usb=off
[11:49] <sileht> I'm guessing the debian VMs are 'pc-i440fx-2.1
[11:51] <sileht> with number:
[11:51] <sileht>       2 pc-i440fx-2.1,accel=kvm,usb=off
[11:51] <sileht>      90 pc-i440fx-utopic,accel=kvm,usb=off
[11:51] <sileht>      50 pc-i440fx-vivid,accel=kvm,usb=off
[11:53] <sileht> cpaelzer, kilo UCA have the utopic machine patch and it's 2.2 :(
[11:54] <sileht> this is an awful bug
[12:00] <cpaelzer> sileht: I can only agree
[12:00] <cpaelzer> sileht: I'll dump the state into the bug, but that needs more people involved given the potential magnitude
[12:04] <cpaelzer> I wonder thou that this only affects special cases - as I can just nicely migrate trusty to xenial
[12:04] <cpaelzer> which is 2.0 to 2.5
[12:04] <cpaelzer> and while xenial currently mis-assumes that to be a 2.5 type it is just fine
[12:04] <cpaelzer> so on a migration it seems to be important what both pairs think
[12:05] <cpaelzer> umm "the pair"
[12:05] <cpaelzer> trusty thinks it has a 2.0 guest (correct) and Xenial (while misinterpreting the type as 2.5 when starting new) can receive it correctly
[12:06] <cpaelzer> yet it fails for you from 2.3 -> 2.5
[12:06] <cpaelzer> some of the special quirks qmeu/libvirt do only apply to certain combinations - and this might be one
[12:06] <cpaelzer> sileht: as guest type?
[12:07] <cpaelzer> sorry
[12:07] <cpaelzer> bad reference - ignore it
[12:10] <sileht> cpaelzer, if you apply my fix but puting 2.0 instead of 2.3 you will fix the 'main' repo
[12:10] <sileht> cpaelzer, but UCA users will still be broken
[12:10] <cpaelzer> sileht: yes this is how far I am in my thoughts
[12:10] <cpaelzer> sileht: but I'm spinning around why you are broken and a base T->X migration is not
[12:12] <sileht> cpaelzer, because UCA have backported qemu without updating define-ubuntu-machine-types.patch correctly
[12:13] <cpaelzer> sileht: almost - because utopic machine type update was done wrong, never fixed till now and all those releases in between got picked up by UCA
[12:13] <sileht> yeah :(
[12:32] <cpaelzer> sileht: do you need more than x86 for your tests if I prep a ppa?
[12:33] <sileht> cpaelzer, no I only have amd64 server
[12:41] <cpaelzer> jamespage: FYI - you might want to reread bug 1641532 content and triage accordingly for UCA now
[12:53] <jamespage> cpaelzer, ack
[13:16] <sileht> cpaelzer, I have tested your ppa and got the same issue so like I thought, in my case, the utopic type is a 2.3 type
[13:28] <cpaelzer> sileht: I was afraid of that, but thanks for verifying
[13:29] <sileht> cpaelzer, for my cluster I can live with the custom package for a while
[13:30] <sileht> cpaelzer, don't hesitate to ping me for real testing
[13:30] <cpaelzer> sileht: thanks - I highly appreciate your report and your fast feedback on this - yet as we agreed before it is an ugly issue and won't make me or anybody else ever really "happy"
[13:53] <bananapie> I want to use debootstrap to create a new xenial image, my machine is running on precise. How do I add xenial to debootstrap on an old version of ubuntu?
[13:53] <bananapie> i created a symlink in /usr/share/debootstrap/scripts   ( ln -s gutsy xenial )
[13:54] <bananapie> oops
[13:55] <bananapie> nevermind, it's ubuntu-vm-builder that I am using, not debootstrap.
[13:56] <bananapie> i'll just install old-school using an iso
[16:02] <KlausedSource> hey everyone, i edited the sudoers file with the command visudo and added the following line: "%rftadm ALL=(ALL) NOPASSWD:ALL"
[16:02] <KlausedSource> it doesn't seem to be applied though
[16:03] <KlausedSource> do i need to restart the system or any service? im running ubuntu 16.04 lts
[16:03] <KlausedSource> i want every user in group rftadm to be able to use sudo without passwortprompt
[16:10] <ddellav> zul can you review lp:~ddellav/ubuntu/+source/keystone master branch, I've implemented your config generator script and it seems to work but I want to make sure. I've installed the built package and it works.
[16:11] <cpaelzer> KlausedSource: I think it has to have a space between ":" and ALL
[16:12] <cpaelzer> KlausedSource: usually no restart/reload needed for that
[16:12] <cpaelzer> KlausedSource: use "visudo" to edit the file that does all you need and locks properly
[16:13] <cpaelzer> KlausedSource: IIRC for the groups you could also try "%rftadm ALL=NOPASSWD: ALL"
[16:13] <KlausedSource> cpaelzer, i figured out the problem with space too. however that alone didn't fix it.
[16:14] <KlausedSource> cpaelzer, the user was also in group sudo and for sudo there was a password-prompt (default) line in the sudoers file which lead to the setting being overwritten by it
[16:15] <cpaelzer> KlausedSource: so it was an issue of first match then and is resolved for you now?
[16:17] <ddellav> coreycb jamespage i need a review for the cinder sru: lp:~ddellav/ubuntu/+source/cinder newton branch, just a missing dependency added
[16:20] <KlausedSource> cpaelzer, yes it is resolved now. however it wasn't first match but it got overwritten (first match was %rftadm, followed by %sudo)
[16:21] <cpaelzer> KlausedSource: oh really - didn't remember it was that way around - thanks for sharing
[16:22] <KlausedSource> cpaelzer, ye i thought it would be first match too that's why i posted here in the first place
[16:24] <zul> jamespage: when you get a chance can you review this please? https://code.launchpad.net/~zulcss/charm-helpers/ocata-support/+merge/310678
[16:46] <Pinkamena_D> I just accidentally ran $ sudo setfacl -d -m g::--- /  what is the correct group defaults that are supposed to be there??
[16:56] <coreycb> ddellav, can you add some more details to that bug, including sru sections in the description?
[17:00] <ddellav> coreycb what would you suggest I use as the impact? I didn't initiate this sru from noticed behavior, it was simply missing a dependency. It still builds and installs fine. Should I attempt to create a situation where keystoneauth1 is required?
[17:03] <coreycb> ddellav, i think if you look at cinder code that imports keystoneauth1 that wouldn't work if python-keystoneauth1 was missing
[17:03] <coreycb> it's possible that keystoneauth1 is getting pulled in by another dependency though
[17:06] <ddellav> coreycb it is being pulled in by python-keystoneclient
[17:32] <zul> ddellav: and your keystone branch builds ok?
[17:32] <zul> ddellav: changelog should be ubuntu1 btw
[17:32] <ddellav> zul yes, in zesty
[17:33] <zul> ddellav: fix the changelog and ill merge it
[17:33] <ddellav> zul ah yea, dch incremented it. I'll fix it
[17:34] <ddellav> zul pushed
[17:34] <zul> thanks
[17:55] <powersj> cpaelzer: is it possible to increase disk space on the s390x lpar? :) we ran out
[18:09] <xnox> powersj, there is very little disk space and it is epxensive
[18:09] <xnox> powersj, =/
[18:19] <powersj> xnox: ok thanks for the heads up. I'll let cpaelzer respond to my email as well to see if we can slim down the images
[19:52] <zul> jamespage: https://code.launchpad.net/~zulcss/charm-helpers/fix-typo/+merge/310805
[20:46] <momken> hello
[20:46] <momken> I have recently bought a 512MB vps
[20:46] <momken> the images available are 16.04 64bit and 14.04 32bit and 64bit.
[20:47] <bekks> momken: So use 16.04
[20:47] <teward> momken: I don't see a question here.  Use 16.04.
[20:47] <momken> Is it better to have the more uptodate 16.04 64bit or less ram usage in 14.04 32bit^
[20:47] <momken> ?
[20:48] <momken> Hmmm. Isn't 512MB ram very small for 16.04 64bit?
[20:48] <momken> I think the 64bit system would consume ~1.5x ram than 32bit
[20:48] <bekks> You wont notice the difference in RAM usage.
[20:49] <bekks> Yout thought about that is entirely wrong.
[20:49] <bekks> *your
[20:50] <momken> bekks, I don't think so. There is a little more usage because increased size of 64bit pointers
[20:50] <bekks> 1.5x is totally nonsense.
[20:50] <momken> It is more significant in low rams.
[20:50] <bekks> "a bit more" means a few MB. Not 1.5x
[20:50] <momken> bekks, But yeh I also think that should not be more than 100MB for increase
[20:51] <bekks> Where did you got that rumout from, regarding 1.5x?
[20:51] <momken> bekks, It was only a guess
[20:51] <ThiagoCMC> Hey guys, the Ansible's service module is not working on Debian / Ubuntu LTS, basically, this: "- service: name=dpdk enabled=yes", does nothing, service does not become enabled! `systemctl status dpdk` show its disabled, any clue?
[20:51] <bekks> momken: And that guess is horrible wrong. So just use 16.04
[20:51] <momken> I read somewhere it may even take more than 1.7x
[20:51] <momken> bekks, OK, thanks
[20:51] <bekks> Wherever you read that - ignore that site from now on.
[20:58] <teward> rbasak: ping, there was a bug you poked me on about a week ago, which one was it?
[22:06] <ThiagoCMC> Hey guys! I have an Ubuntu 16.04 running OpenvSwithc and DPDK, it is really awesome! From Newton Cloud Archive...
[22:06] <ThiagoCMC> However, my Newton, is not using the OVS with DPDK, it still uses the regular OVS bridges... My KVM only setup with with OVS+DPDK but, Newton is "not aware" that OVS+DPKD is available... Where are the instructions?
[22:07] <ThiagoCMC> This doc: http://docs.openstack.org/newton/networking-guide/config-ovs-dpdk.html looks not enough...
[22:09] <ThiagoCMC> Do I need the "sudo apt install python-networking-vs-dpdk" package installed?
[22:48] <sarnold> ThiagoCMC: hah, once again I thought of you being the expert here before I noticed that it was you asking the question..
[23:00] <ThiagoCMC> sarnold, lol
[23:00] <ThiagoCMC> come on...   =P
[23:00] <ThiagoCMC> If I don't know, I don't know...
[23:00] <ThiagoCMC> have to ask...   =)
[23:00] <sarnold> :)


[05:20] <Symmetria> sup
[06:07] <tumbleweed> Symmetria: dosen't look like the debian mirror is any happier yet
[06:11] <Symmetria> tumbleweed lemme check, it was doing a HUGE sync
[06:12] <Symmetria> yeah its still synching, dunno why its taking so long though
[12:08] <Kilos> afternoon everyone
[12:16] <ludoza> Hi Kilos
[12:17] <Kilos> lol you became a za guy
[12:17] <Kilos> hiys ludoza
[12:17] <Kilos> maybe i must do that too
[12:17] <ludoza> Kilos sometimes ludo is taken seeing it is a very common name
[12:17] <ludoza> what kiloza :P
[12:17] <Symmetria> heh, cleaning up this place of mine because Im gonna have a chick staying with me for a coupla days has made me realize something
[12:17] <Kilos> lol yeah
[12:18] <Symmetria> either a.) I need to hire a permenant maid or b.)
[12:19]  * ludoza is helping his maid get a job in pta.
[12:20] <Symmetria> heh I have a very strange relationship
[12:20] <Symmetria> this girl I've been seeing... we've spent weeks together, but never once have any of those weeks ever been in either of our own countries
[12:20] <Symmetria> :p
[12:22] <ludoza> Symmetria like them forgein :P *eish* now i'm thinking of that wimpy add :/
[12:22] <ludoza> *ad
[12:22] <Kilos> add
[12:23] <Kilos> hiya stefanv
[12:23] <ludoza> Symmetria http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLWlmD1x2pw *i'm really sorry*
[12:24] <Symmetria> lol ludo the last girl I dated for 6 years was also foreign
[12:24] <Symmetria> she was from namibia
[12:24] <Symmetria> this girl Im seeing now, is from kenya :P
[12:25] <Symmetria> lol, though I havent seen her in kenya yet, spent ages with her in ghana and in tanzania though :P
[12:28]  * ludoza believes all his female friends was from gauteng.
[12:30] <Symmetria> heh, I travel soooo much that I get to meet all sorts of interesting people
[12:30] <Symmetria> its kinda cool, because it opens your eyes to so much more than if you stay in one place
[12:30] <Symmetria> every tribe, every people, every country has a different culture, and you can absorb so much and learn so much
[12:32] <Symmetria> strangely though, you take a lot less crap in south africa for dating across racial boundaries than you do elsewhere in africa, in south africa no one really cares, some of hte other countries, you get the distinct impression that this is not a good idea
[12:33] <ludoza> Symmetria it also depends where in south africa you are.
[13:37] <Symmetria> heh ludoza yeah thats true
[13:37] <Symmetria> ludoza I do find there are some cultural things that tend to be very common in africa, not in all places, but pretty common
[13:38] <Symmetria> for example, be very wary of asking the question "So, when do I get to meet your parents" :P
[13:38] <Symmetria> that may cause heart failure
[13:51] <Kilos> hiya Tonberry
[13:52] <Kilos> hehe, frightened him away
[15:32] <tumbleweed> Symmetria: your debian mirror still appears to be going. It was only a week out of sync, do you have a slow upstream?
[15:59] <Kilos> evening all
[15:59] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[15:59]  * Maaz puts the kettle on
[16:03] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[16:03] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[16:03] <Maaz> Enjoy Kilos
[16:03] <Kilos> will do
[16:58] <Kilos> hiya nlsthzn you well??
[16:58] <Kilos> no work tonight?
[16:59] <nlsthzn> Alo Kilos ... always well thanks... nope, was day shift...
[16:59] <Kilos> ah thats good then you get to sleep inna dark time
[17:00] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[17:00]  * Maaz washes some mugs
[17:00] <nlsthzn> yup... which is very soon :)
[17:01] <Kilos> good you must sleep tight
[17:04] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[17:04] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[17:04] <Maaz> Enjoy Kilos
[17:08] <nlsthzn> Thanks Kilos ... have a good night... catch you all later :)
[17:08] <Kilos> cheers neil
[18:18] <Kilos> night all