[00:01] <Riddell> Quintasan: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21688/desktop-r-ubuntukylin-inputmethod-ibus-or-fcitx/  might be interesting to you
[00:02] <yofel> works for me so far, and it has a cleaner look than launchpad
[00:02] <yofel> + no dead links all over the page
[00:03] <Riddell> I think we should have someone go to http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21666/community-xubuntu-contingencies/
[00:03] <yofel> apachelogger: what's agile about "don't update for a month if you want to use the snapshot, but you'll have to update to rolling if you want (security) updates"
[00:03] <Riddell> I'll be busy at a pre-arranged real life meeting
[00:04] <apachelogger> yofel: it sounds agile
[00:04] <apachelogger> I didn't say it is agile :P
[00:05] <yofel> ...
[00:05] <yofel> Riddell: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21670/community-1303-quality-rolling/ is interesting too
[00:05] <apachelogger> Riddell: when is that?
[00:06] <Riddell> apachelogger: what's what?
[00:06] <yofel> bah, monthly snapshotting is at the same time as the xubuntu session
[00:06] <apachelogger> Riddell: the xubuntu thing
[00:06] <yofel> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/2013-03-06/ 18:15
[00:06] <apachelogger> the page does not state a time or anything
[00:06] <valorie> when is the meeting?
[00:06] <valorie> I'm at least in the channel now
[00:06]  * apachelogger shakes head
[00:07] <Riddell> apachelogger: xubuntu discussing how to live with no non-LTS releases, we'll have much the same issues to worth sharing
[00:07] <apachelogger> good thing we have a so well integrated online uds system
[00:07] <Riddell> valorie: which meeting?
[00:07] <apachelogger> have to go elsewhere to see when a session takes place -.-
[00:07] <valorie> the xubuntu
[00:07] <yofel> valorie: tomorrow 18:15 UTC
[00:07] <valorie> ah, OK
[00:07] <valorie> yes, I think I can make that
[00:07] <Riddell> skellat: ⇈
[00:07]  * apachelogger is not sure but can try
[00:08] <Riddell> skellat: ༒
[00:08] <valorie> I don't have technical know-how, but I've read up on the issues
[00:08] <Riddell> valorie: can you use a google hangout?
[00:08] <valorie> yes
[00:08] <skellat> valorie: Make sure you subscribe to the blueprint, mark attending on Summit, and then I can marked you "required" so you can be on camera via Google Hangout
[00:09] <valorie> check, and check
[00:10] <apachelogger> plus points if you wear a fancy hat :)
[00:11] <skellat> valorie: You're good to go.  The big thing is to look over the question I set out on the blueprint, be ready to briefly raise a summary of Kubuntu's worries about all of this, and be ready to discuss steps and contingencies all of us among the flavors have looking forward.  We don't have many good options at this point but it is still important to build a record.
[00:13] <skellat> The main idea why the session was so close to the end was so that it could be a stock-take of everything else that happened so that from the flavors perspective we could start stating how things appear to us.
[00:14] <skellat> E-mails and planet posts are great but sounding reasonable and calm on video in this day and age helps a lot
[00:14] <skellat> :-)
[00:16] <skellat> And now I need to disappear for a while...
[00:16]  * skellat disappears to join family watching Wheel of Fortune
[00:19] <wendar> apachelogger: :)
[00:19] <wendar> apachelogger: and rolling sounds like something pigs do ;)
[00:19] <apachelogger> ^^
[00:47] <valorie> fancy hat!
[00:47] <valorie> I'll look for one
[00:47] <valorie> I have a kubuntu hat if nothing else
[00:47] <valorie> :-)
[00:47] <valorie> now to dinner
[00:48] <valorie> "summary of Kubuntu's worries" is a doc I will work on in 4-5 hours
[00:49] <valorie> if someone wants to start a pad and thoughts before that, that would be great
[00:49]  * valorie disappears
[01:03] <Riddell> I'm on slashdot!
[01:03] <Riddell> fame and fortune are mine at last
[01:03] <apachelogger> "slashdot is weird"
[01:04] <apachelogger> Riddell: lol
[01:04] <apachelogger> that's what you get for trolling :P
[01:05] <Riddell> would it be socially acceptable to add a "p.s. I'm single and eligable incase any cute slashdot ladies in the 25-35ish age bracket are interested"?
[01:06] <ScottK> Riddell: slashdot link?
[01:06] <Riddell> slashdot.org
[01:07] <apachelogger> Riddell: I guess
[01:07] <ScottK> Meh
[01:07] <apachelogger> http://apple.slashdot.org/story/13/03/05/2256243/gnome-founder-miguel-de-icaza-moves-to-mac
[01:07] <Riddell> it's my bitchy one about gnome rather than my bitchy one about canonical
[01:08] <apachelogger> too much bitching about canonical :P
[01:14] <ScottK> apachelogger: Is that possible?
[01:15] <apachelogger> dunno
[01:15] <apachelogger> see, I am restraining myself
[01:15] <apachelogger> so I try to not think about it too much
[01:15] <ScottK> Alcohol probably helps with that.
[01:16] <ScottK> Hmmm.
[01:16] <apachelogger> ENOAVAIL
[01:16] <ScottK> Ohhhh.  So sad for you.
[01:16]  * ScottK is just realizing that with a big snowstorm coming tonight, it's probably 36 hours before he has any need to be sober enough to drive.
[01:18] <apachelogger> oh
[01:18] <apachelogger> party time until power's gone I guess? :)
[01:20] <ScottK> Then I'll need the alcohol so my blood doesn't solidify.
[01:22] <apachelogger> hm
[01:22] <apachelogger> not enough alcohol for now and later?
[01:23] <apachelogger> I've never seen an actual snowstorm I think
[01:24] <ScottK> Really?
[01:24]  * ScottK thought you lived in a reasonably snow ridden country.
[01:24] <ScottK> No, I think we have plenty, just commenting that an early start would provide benefits later.
[01:25] <apachelogger> we get windy snowing, nothing what I would call a snowstorm though
[01:25] <Darkwing> Holy.... yup that's snow
[01:26] <apachelogger> perhaps my perception of snow is off
[01:26] <Darkwing> hehehe. I can't see 20m from my house
[01:27] <Riddell> glorious sunshine in Scotland for the last week, all welcome here
[01:27] <Darkwing> Snow was falling too hard.
[01:27] <Darkwing> :D
[01:27] <apachelogger> is that a snowstorm?
[01:27] <Darkwing> My mailbox has nevr been this bad.
[01:28]  * apachelogger wanted to write visionary stuff -.-
[01:28] <Riddell> just write a bitchy blog post and you'll get it on slashdot
[01:29] <apachelogger> ^^
[06:44] <soee> good morning
[06:48] <soee> Riddell, did you received my message yesterday ?
[06:49] <valorie> Kubuntu Worries: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zgbZJgsCVaItWtd-zldemD7B0kssrjnPK95jyvMipQs/edit?usp=sharing
[06:49] <valorie> anyone with the link can edit
[06:49] <valorie> Gdocs since the meeting is a Hangout
[07:41] <lordievader> yofel: Where can I find KDE SC 4.10.1 for Precise? I think I need to add a ppa or something? First have to install precise though.
[07:42] <lordievader> Good morning, btw o/
[08:00] <Tm_T> Riddell: you amuse me with your blog posts
[08:19] <Riddell> soee: no what did you say?
[08:20] <Riddell> lordievader: got kubuntu ninjas details?
[08:21] <lordievader> Riddell: What do you mean?
[08:21] <soee> Riddell, 4.10.1 tested on Raring, no errors, no problems during and after upgrade
[08:25] <mgraesslin> Riddell: just curious - given the blog post you posted yesterday... don't you have to remove your own blog for being "unconstructive" - that was the word, wasn't it?
[08:28] <Mamarok> hey, can somebody please add me to Kubuntu0s Trello group? I already have an account
[08:29] <Riddell> mgraesslin: I was highlighting the need to remove blogs which are unconstructive, that's a very constructive thing to do!
[08:30] <Riddell> Mamarok: I think that's it done
[08:30] <mgraesslin> and the p.s.? /me didn't know planetkde and slashdot are a dating platform
[08:31] <Riddell> lordievader: do you know how to install from ninjas?
[08:31] <Riddell> mgraesslin: oh you'd be surprised, I'm getting the offers flooding in
[08:31] <Riddell> or I'm sure they will any minute now
[08:31] <lordievader> Riddell: Uhmm, no.
[08:32] <mgraesslin> :-D
[08:32] <Riddell> lordievader: msg'ed
[08:32] <Riddell> add that for precise
[08:32] <Riddell> and update && dist-upgrade
[08:33] <Mamarok> Riddell: thanks, but you added me as a memberto a board, not as a member to the group :)
[08:33] <lordievader> Riddell: To the sources I take, shouldn't it be precise?
[08:33] <Riddell> lordievader: yes
[08:34] <Riddell> Mamarok: try now?
[08:40] <Mamarok> Riddell: works, thank you :)
[08:43] <Mamarok> valorie: why Xubuntu? are you no longer using Kubuntu?
[08:43] <valorie> they have a session scheduled, and we do not
[08:44] <Mamarok> well, then we should schedule one, I doubt they will care much for KDE
[08:44] <valorie> and the other devels have conflicting schedules
[08:44] <valorie> no, they know we have common issues
[08:44] <valorie> as a fellow 'Flavor'
[08:45] <valorie> they asked for one of us (at least) to attend
[08:45] <lordievader> Ok, cool. Updating now to 4.10.1 :)
[08:45] <valorie> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zgbZJgsCVaItWtd-zldemD7B0kssrjnPK95jyvMipQs/edit?usp=sharing
[08:45] <valorie> [22:49] <valorie> anyone with the link can edit
[08:45] <valorie> if you would like to chime in
[08:45] <jussi> can we talk a little about how we can use these developments to our advantage? ie. if the Mir thing didnt come up, we would actually be happy about ubuntu moving to Qt
[08:45] <Mamarok> valorie: yes, I have seen that, but why not make a blueprint?
[08:46] <Mamarok> gosh, Summit, I hate you!
[08:46] <Mamarok> it doesn't let me log in , same problem every time, that thing just sucks big time!
[08:47] <valorie> well, I'm not in charge of that
[08:47] <Mamarok> valorie: I know, I didn't blame you
[08:47] <valorie> we're planning a kubuntu session this weekend, when there are some answers
[08:47] <valorie> this is basically a list of our questions
[08:47] <valorie> I hope we get some answers
[08:48] <valorie> everything seems so amorphous now
[08:49] <soee> Riddell, packages for Quantal are ready ?
[08:49] <soee> if yes i can test now
[08:50] <yofel> soee: yes
[08:50] <valorie> jussi: I think we CAN use the developments to our advantage
[08:50] <soee> yofel, but i have no ninjas ppa here at work - can you sed me ?
[08:50] <valorie> but some answers about what will actually happen will be good to hear
[08:53] <Riddell> jussi: ubuntu moving to Qt (again) is nice, means we get them to do lots of work on the Qt 5 packages, and we get to feel smug about making the right toolkit choice many years ago, but not much other advantage for us
[08:54] <jussi> Riddell: but come on, how important is that nice smug feeling!?
[08:55] <jussi> I think the contribution raise both to Qt5 and its packaging will actually be significant to us.
[08:55] <Riddell> jussi: oh totally, being smug gets you on the front page of slashdot so I'm all for it
[08:55] <valorie> lol
[08:56] <valorie> it would be nice if patches went upstream though
[08:56] <Mamarok> valorie: don't forget to sleep before 18:00 UTC :)
[08:56] <valorie> going to bed soon, for sure
[08:56] <valorie> looooong day tomorrow
[08:59] <Mamarok> oh my, I was just not aware that UDS is now...
[09:01] <valorie> yeah
[09:01] <valorie> tons of stuff dumped on us this last week
[09:08] <Mamarok> Riddell: shamelessly self-advertising now?  ;)
[09:08] <shadeslayer> yofel: can you give me access to the mumble db
[09:08] <jussi> Riddell: :D Nice "Im single come and get me" there also :P
[09:08] <yofel> sec
[09:09] <soee> guys why thers always this message when upgrading kde: http://pastebin.com/yUt4wadE ? i knnow i shoudl ignore this but shouldn't this be removed/fixed ?
[09:11] <yofel> shadeslayer: http://yofel.dyndns.org/kubuntu/mumble-server.sqlite
[09:11] <lordievader> Riddell: 4.10.1 installs, boots and runs nicely on 12.04.2 :D
[09:14] <lordievader> Hmm the Search and Launch activity has a bug though, you can search but not open anything.
[09:16] <Riddell> lordievader: awooga
[09:17] <lordievader> Riddell: A log-out, log-in has fixed it.
[09:19] <Riddell> soee: that mime types will be listed in some applications .desktop file but not listed in mime database
[09:20] <Riddell> should be some simple grepping to track down
[09:20] <soee> Riddell, yofel upgrade on 12.10 done, no errors/problems and my desktop panel shadow is back also :)
[09:20] <soee> 4.10 -> 4.10.1
[09:21] <lordievader> Riddell: Is there some test report I need to fill in somewhere about 4.10.1?
[09:23] <Riddell> lordievader: just add it to http://notes.kde.org/kubuntu-ninjas please
[09:28] <Mamarok> I just upgrade 4.10.1 on 12.10, works fine, nothing bad I can see so far
[09:29] <Mamarok> upgraded*
[09:31] <shadeslayer> yofel: You don't have permission to access /kubuntu/mumble-server.sqlite on this server.
[09:31] <yofel> *blink*
[09:32] <yofel> oops, it's 640
[09:32] <yofel> shadeslayer: now
[09:32] <Riddell> Mamarok: great
[09:32] <shadeslayer> got it
[09:33] <shadeslayer> yofel: any ideas where it's stored by default?
[09:33] <yofel>  /var/lib/mumble-server/
[09:33] <shadeslayer> thx
[09:34] <Riddell> ooh Martin Owens leaving http://doctormo.org/2013/03/06/ubuntu-membership-2/
[09:35] <yofel> shadeslayer: more specifically:
[09:35] <yofel> 15092337 4.0K drwxr-x--- 3 mumble-server mumble-server 4.0K Mar  1 02:18 /var/lib/mumble-server/
[09:35] <shadeslayer> mmm okay
[09:35]  * Riddell considers a "wanting an ubuntu community?  kubuntu still is just that" post
[09:36] <shadeslayer> doctormo is blocked in India :(
[09:37] <Riddell> shadeslayer: read it on planet ubuntu
[09:37] <yofel> it's timing out for me o.O
[09:37] <shadeslayer> yeah that's what I'm doing
[09:42] <Tm_T> Riddell: doeet
[09:42] <Tm_T> that's pretty much I was thinking of about this situation
[09:43] <yofel> Sad to see him "leave", even if he's saying what I've been thinking for a while
[09:46] <Riddell> should I be trying to schedule a mumble session for some day soon?
[09:46] <Tm_T> I still try hold ubuntu name related to me, but I've been considering the last year or so if I should just stick with kubuntu (email address etc)
[09:47] <Riddell> Tm_T: don't let canonical's antisocial attitude to community rub off on Kubuntu!
[09:48] <Riddell> (I actually don't entirely disagree with canonical's antisocial attitude to community, kde/gnome haven't taken over the world, fair enough they try something else, just a shame for their community)
[09:48] <soee> it feels like now after upgrade on 12.10 all forks a bit smoother :)
[09:48] <Tm_T> Riddell: it's the communication, how and when they do it what bothers me most
[09:48] <Tm_T> also how decisions are done, not the actual outcomes of decisions
[09:49] <Riddell> I wonder if I posted to ubuntu-devel saying kubuntu is switching to qt-razor if it would be believed given what's happened recently
[09:49] <Tm_T> "look we have this new product! go ask more from community!" ... "uh, we know only what's on that web page?"
[09:52] <Riddell> on a completely different topic, random e-mail du jour http://paste.kde.org/688526/
[09:52] <shadeslayer> heh
[09:53] <Tm_T> Riddell: one moment, I have a reply for you to send
[09:54] <Tm_T> Riddell: http://www.cipsum.com/
[09:57] <Mamarok> Riddell: nice one :)
[10:00] <shadeslayer> yofel: can you check if mumble stuff works on ec2-23-23-39-41.compute-1.amazonaws.com
[10:00] <shadeslayer> with the whole db and what not
[10:01] <yofel> it's not connecting. Firewall open?
[10:02] <shadeslayer> oh, I forgot to expose the service :|
[10:02] <shadeslayer> try now?
[10:03] <yofel> well, I'm connected
[10:04] <yofel> shadeslayer: I don't see the session setup though
[10:04] <Riddell> shadeslayer: will there be a telepathy upload before feature freeze?
[10:05] <shadeslayer> Riddell: yes
[10:05] <shadeslayer> waiting on upstream
[10:05] <shadeslayer> no tarballs that I know of
[10:05] <valorie> how does one see the server?
[10:06] <yofel> shadeslayer: here's the DB contents: http://paste.kde.org/688538/ - see channel table, that's not showing up
[10:06] <yofel> *channels table
[10:06] <shadeslayer> hmm
[10:10] <shadeslayer> huzzah
[10:10] <shadeslayer> Riddell: can you connect to ec2-23-23-39-41.compute-1.amazonaws.com
[10:10] <shadeslayer> using le mumble
[10:10] <yofel> rofl, text-to-speech: \o/ -> channel shadeslayer backslash-o-slash
[10:11] <shadeslayer> hahaha
[10:16] <Riddell> :P -> colon p
[10:17] <murthy> hello everyone
[10:18] <valorie> I think I'm connected -- someone say something
[10:18] <murthy> valorie: hi
[10:18] <valorie> haha
[10:18] <valorie> I mean to the mumble server
[10:19] <murthy> oh, :)
[10:19] <yofel> someone would have to move from afk ^^
[10:19] <yofel> (not me, I can't talk here)
[10:19] <valorie> ah
[10:20] <valorie> I heard it say I'm connected
[10:20] <shadeslayer> Riddell:  http://paste.kde.org/688562/ with local.yaml as : http://paste.kde.org/688568/
[10:20] <valorie> but hear nothing
[10:20] <shadeslayer> valorie: now?
[10:21] <shadeslayer> erm, that script is slightly wrong
[10:21] <valorie> well, I  see you
[10:22] <valorie> but if we're using all text, IRC is easier
[10:22] <valorie> lol
[10:22] <Riddell> how's this? http://blogs.kde.org/2013/03/06/ubuntu-community-community
[10:22] <shadeslayer> haha
[10:22] <shadeslayer> http://paste.kde.org/688574/
[10:23] <valorie> Riddell: I don't think we should burn our Ubuntu bridges quite yet
[10:23] <shadeslayer> ^
[10:23] <shadeslayer> yofel: you could hear me earlier right?
[10:23] <yofel> valorie: I'm not sure what's left to burn
[10:23] <yofel> shadeslayer: I can hear you tapping...
[10:23] <valorie> true, but
[10:24] <valorie> we don't have infra to move to yet
[10:24] <valorie> so while we're here, we should be friendly, IMO
[10:24] <Riddell> valorie: I'm not saying Kubuntu should move out of Ubuntu, I'm saying disillusioned people from elsewhere in ubuntu should come here
[10:24] <valorie> everyone else is going nutso, so we should be the calm, friendly ones
[10:24] <valorie> yes, but please wait a few hours before re-reading
[10:25] <valorie> there is a definite edge to your post
[10:26] <shadeslayer> I can't hear any of you if you're speaking
[10:26] <shadeslayer> yofel: the loud tapping is because my mic is located right next to the keyboard I think
[10:26] <Riddell> I've frozen mumble by running the audio wizard
[10:26] <shadeslayer> right next to the speaker
[10:26] <shadeslayer> I have no idea why apple thought that would be a good idea
[10:27] <valorie> well, I need to go to bed so I can think tomorrow at the Xub. session
[10:27] <valorie> niters all
[10:27] <Riddell> sweet dreams valorie
[10:27] <shadeslayer> night valorie
[10:27] <yofel> shadeslayer: two things in that case: 1) *please* use headphones at least. 2) possible use push-to-talk
[10:27] <yofel> *possibly
[10:27] <valorie> push what to talk?
[10:27] <valorie> spacebar?
[10:28] <valorie> bleah
[10:28] <shadeslayer> heh, yeah will do
[10:28] <valorie> => bed
[10:28] <yofel> I didn't find out what's the default (IIRC none). You can set it up by going advanced in the menu
[10:28] <yofel> then configure a custom shortcut for it
[10:28] <yofel> night valorie
[10:29] <shadeslayer> hmm
[10:29] <jussi> lets use g+ :D :P :P :P :D
[10:30] <shadeslayer> yofel: hm, don't see something that allows me to change the push to talk button
[10:30] <yofel> as I said, go advanced, then set a custom shortcut button
[10:31] <yofel> there is a little advanced checkbox in the bottom-left corner of the settings window
[10:31] <shadeslayer> it's in "Settings" for me
[10:31] <shadeslayer> xD
[10:32] <shadeslayer> alright, now that we have it working, how about we actually schedule sessions and talk?
[10:34] <jussi> hrm, what is the mumble server - I want to connect/test
[10:34] <Riddell> shadeslayer: what's in local.yaml ?
[10:35] <shadeslayer> Riddell: default password for mumble superuser http://paste.kde.org/688568/
[10:35] <smartboyhw> Hiyas on mobile
[10:35] <yofel> hi smartboyhw
[10:35]  * shadeslayer goes bah again
[10:35] <shadeslayer> the juju order is messed ip
[10:35] <shadeslayer> *up
[10:36] <shadeslayer> the move should come after stopping mumble-server
[10:36] <yofel> smartboyhw: are you going to attend the quality session at 15:00 UTC?
[10:36] <jussi> shadeslayer: is that the same as "I messed up" :P ?
[10:36] <shadeslayer> yes :P
[10:37] <jussi> now that Unity is going Qt, it will be very interesting to compare memoryh footprints :D
[10:38] <Riddell> going Qt.. again
[10:38] <Riddell> jussi: is there actually an announcement about that on the desktop?
[10:38] <shadeslayer> Riddell: note that the order is messed up a bit, also, t1.micro instances don't quite terminate if you just shut them down
[10:38] <smartboyhw> yofel: NO
[10:39] <yofel> hm, ok
[10:39]  * smartboyhw is revising for tests.
[10:39] <smartboyhw> I am worrying if I could even attend KC meetinf
[10:39] <shadeslayer> I also seem to have forgotten expose :/
[10:39] <smartboyhw> Test on Monday..
[10:40] <yofel> smartboyhw: it should be short if it's just the membership stuff
[10:40] <shadeslayer> http://paste.kde.org/688586/
[10:40] <smartboyhw> 7/3 Chinese 8/3 Chinese History 11/3 Chemistry 14/3 English 18/3 Physics 20/3 Geography 26/3 Biology
[10:40] <jussi> Riddell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnityNextSpec
[10:40] <smartboyhw> Damb
[10:41] <smartboyhw> s/damb/damn/
[10:41] <kubotu> smartboyhw: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed"
[10:41] <smartboyhw> grrr
[10:41] <shadeslayer> sed is case sensitive ;)
[10:41] <smartboyhw> yofel: That is basically my test days
[10:41] <smartboyhw> BAH
[10:41] <yofel> wibble
[10:42] <jussi> Riddell: "Unity Next UI implemented on Qt (note: much has already been included in the Ubuntu Touch Developer Preview)"
[10:42] <Riddell> jussi: ah yes
[10:43] <Riddell> smartboyhw: does Chinese History include the controvertial stuff?
[10:43] <smartboyhw> Riddell: Unfortunately not *yet*
[10:43] <smartboyhw> Later in April or May I think
[10:47] <ovidiu-florin> hello world :D
[10:47] <Riddell> hi ovidiu-florin
[10:48] <lordievader> Hey ovidiu-florin, how are you?
[10:48] <ovidiu-florin> hey lordievader
[10:49] <shadeslayer> Riddell: do the t1 micro instances cost anything?
[10:49] <ovidiu-florin> I'm stressed, I want to do so much but I don't think I have the time
[10:49] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yes, $0.085/hour
[10:50] <shadeslayer> hm weird
[10:50] <shadeslayer> I thought t1.micro was free
[10:50] <yofel> use ec2 for meetings to be on the safe side. You can use my instance for idle chatter
[10:51] <smartboyhw> hey ovidiu-florin
[10:51] <Riddell> shadeslayer: oh maybe I'm wrong  Micro On-Demand Instances $0.020 per Hour
[10:51] <Riddell> says http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/
[10:52] <Riddell> and the small have gone down too, Small (Default)$0.060 per Hour
[10:53] <shadeslayer> nah, I thought we qualified for the free usage tier
[10:53] <Riddell> "As part of AWS’s Free Usage Tier, new AWS customers can get started with Amazon EC2 for free." dunno what counts as new but I've had this account for a while
[10:54] <shadeslayer> ah
[10:54] <shadeslayer> it's only free for a year, then I guess we've exhausted it
[10:54] <Riddell> there's also bandwidth to pay for
[10:56] <shadeslayer> oh, what's the cost for that?
[10:56] <Riddell> dunno
[10:56] <Riddell> http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/ is your friend
[10:57] <shadeslayer> doesn't say bandwidth price
[10:58] <shadeslayer> hm, 0.10 per GB
[10:58]  * yofel -> lunch
[10:59] <shadeslayer> this stuff is super cheap
[11:01] <Riddell> it adds up
[11:09] <smartboyhw> Riddell how *did* you save 13.04?
[11:10] <shadeslayer> Riddell: btw you pinged about qa.kubuntu.org ?
[11:10] <Riddell> shadeslayer: by proposing it be kept (although it's not final final)
[11:11] <Riddell> shadeslayer: yes, was wondering if you'd asked for it
[11:11] <shadeslayer> yeah
[11:11] <Riddell> smartboyhw: by proposing it be kept (although it's not final final)
[11:11] <Riddell> shadeslayer: let me guess, no reply?
[11:11] <shadeslayer> idk, did someone file a RT?
[11:11] <smartboyhw> good
[11:11] <smartboyhw> dhade
[11:11] <smartboyhw>  What the....
[11:12] <smartboyhw> shadeslayer, RT for what?
[11:12] <Riddell> ximion: interesting blog post there, but what's wrong with Kubuntu? or are we being tarnished by canonical?
[11:12] <Riddell> shadeslayer: oh, by asked I ment file an RT
[11:12] <Riddell> smartboyhw: for qa.kubuntu.org domain
[11:13]  * smartboyhw has just posted an post for ranting about Canonical-community relationship
[11:13] <snele> guys is 4.10.1 for 12.04 in backports ppa? I ask because I am getting no updates
[11:13] <ximion> Riddell: no - in fact, I even use Kubuntu on my laptop (Debian Testing is not great there), but I wished more independence for people involved in Kubuntu
[11:14] <shadeslayer> context?
[11:15] <ximion> if Canonical wants to make more use of Qt, they will want to control the Qt packaging, which in turn affects KDE. So does every other decison about the system core
[11:15] <Riddell> shadeslayer: http://blog.tenstral.net/2013/03/a-new-debian-based-distribution.html
[11:15] <shadeslayer> ahh that
[11:15] <ximion> Riddell: e.g. for my KDE+systemd experiments, Ubuntu is clearly a bad choice ;-)
[11:15] <Riddell> ximion: eek, don't make KDE depend on systemd!
[11:16] <shadeslayer> ^
[11:16] <smartboyhw> Riddell: http://smartboyhw.tk/wordpress_smartboyhw/?p=27
[11:17] <ximion> Riddell: that is not the plan - we were thinking about some kind of abstraction/fallback, but for now danttis sessionk might already be a great way to go
[11:17] <ximion> (I started with this stuff to get rid of ConsoleKit, and then continued to try to make systemd --user handle a KDE session)
[11:18] <shadeslayer> er
[11:18] <shadeslayer> that doesn't sound good for people using Kubuntu :|
[11:18] <smartboyhw> eh
[11:19] <shadeslayer> unless we switch to systemd as well, which would require insane amounts of work
[11:19] <ximion> btw, about Ubuntu: the latest developments really confused anyone developing a derivative. And I think it was Scott who raised some concerns about derivatives on the ML, which were not adressed by Canonical yet (probably because they haven't thought about it)
[11:20] <smartboyhw> ximion: +1
[11:20] <ximion> shadeslayer: that is just what I was doing for fun, nothing I want to push to KDE default. for handling a KDE session, sessionk is a pretty cool new thing.
[11:21] <murthy> I have made a backup of the base image of pbuilder which was created with raring as distribution , i am creating a new image with quantal as distribution, my question is whether the aptcache in /var/cache/pbuilder willl be overwritten ?
[11:21] <ximion> but for killing ConsoleKit, systemd+logind is incredibly awesome :) (even Ubuntu switches to it, but they create another compat layer to make it work, this time for systemd ^^)
[11:21] <Tm_T> ximion: the old session handling is rather old isn't it (:
[11:22] <ximion> Tm_T: yep - it's problem was that it worked so well that nobody thought about replacing it ^^
[11:22] <ximion> but from looking at the code, you can see a lot of bogus in there
[11:23] <ximion> dantti even found a one-shot 4sec timer, which was the most surprising thing.
[11:23] <shadeslayer> yeah I've seen that
[11:27] <murthy> shadeslayer: how can i find the audio device used by phonon
[11:28] <shadeslayer> system settings > Multimedia > Phonon ?
[11:28] <Riddell> better to ask apachelogger?
[11:28] <murthy> shadeslayer: using terminal
[11:28] <shadeslayer> hmm
[11:28] <shadeslayer> I have no idea :S
[11:28] <murthy> Riddell: you mean audio stuff?
[11:28] <murthy> shadeslayer: ok
[11:28] <yofel> Riddell: some xubuntu thoughts on the community thingy: http://paste.kde.org/688640
[11:30] <murthy> apachelogger:  the audio playback turns in to chipmuk voice when a popup notification appears and its very embarrassing
[11:32] <murthy> apachelogger: there is a notification with title "Removed sound devices". Tell me how can i find the current device used by phonon or pulse. This problem could be confined just to amarok, i have to test further
[11:34] <murthy> apachelogger: its amarok
[11:34] <shadeslayer> usually it's the first device that you set in the systemsettings kcm
[11:34] <murthy> shadeslayer: amarok bug
[11:34] <shadeslayer> can you tell me which one?
[11:34] <murthy> shadeslayer: clementine and flashplugin works
[11:35] <murthy> shadeslayer: which ? device?
[11:35] <shadeslayer> wait what, what's happening
[11:35] <shadeslayer> murthy: can you tell me what exactly is the issue
[11:36] <Riddell> yofel: thanks
[11:36] <murthy> shadeslayer:  audio is playing in amarok and when a popup notification appears and the audio changes to chipmuk voice, the bit rate changes i guess
[11:37] <shadeslayer> okay, and can you check if you can reproduce it on another phonon backend?
[11:37] <murthy> shadeslayer: a notification appears with title, audio device removed
[11:37] <shadeslayer> like, you're most likely using the gst backend, can you check if it also happens on the gst backend
[11:38] <murthy> shadeslayer: vlc?
[11:39] <murthy> shadeslayer: v0.6.0 ok?
[11:40] <shadeslayer> phonon has multiple backends, check which one is activated
[11:41] <murthy> shadeslayer: installed vlc, going to test
[11:41] <shadeslayer> er, not vlc, there's phonon-backend-vlc
[11:41] <shadeslayer> which is what you need to install
[11:41] <murthy> shadeslayer: thats what i mean
[11:41] <shadeslayer> ah okay :)
[11:42] <murthy> brb after restart
[11:48] <murthy> i can reproduce the bug and its worst with vlc backend
[11:48] <murthy> shadeslayer: ^
[11:48] <shadeslayer> ouch
[11:48] <shadeslayer> murthy: please report a bug on bugs.kde.org against phonon
[11:48] <shadeslayer> and you can rant in #kde-multimedia :P
[11:48] <murthy> shadeslayer: I am going to check once more to confirm if its a amarok bug
[11:48] <shadeslayer> about how apachelogger doesn't fix bugs
[11:49] <murthy> heh
[11:49] <murthy> is there a way to paste audio?
[11:49] <shadeslayer> paste what
[11:50] <murthy> shadeslayer: audio sample :)
[11:50] <murthy> shadeslayer: when i am bosting about kde, this is like a face palm to me
[11:51] <murthy> shadeslayer: *boasting
[11:51] <shadeslayer> heh, not that I know of
[11:51] <shadeslayer> you could attach the file to bugzilla if it's freely distributable
[11:52] <murthy> shadeslayer: ya, thats what i had in mind
[11:52] <murthy> shadeslayer: so that apachelogger could listen to it and enjoy
[11:52] <murthy> shadeslayer: sending files over irc work?
[11:53] <murthy> shadeslayer: i am hearing a square wave modulated song
[11:53] <shadeslayer> heh
[11:54] <shadeslayer> I'm sure you can reproduce it with any file
[11:54] <murthy> shadeslayer: is the mumble thing for the UDS?
[11:54] <shadeslayer> yup
[11:54] <murthy> shadeslayer: ya
[11:54] <shadeslayer> because we don't want to tie into proprietary services like G+ Hangouts
[11:54] <murthy> shadeslayer: are you people going to talk about mir?
[11:54] <murthy> shadeslayer: nice
[11:54] <shadeslayer> I have no idea
[11:55] <shadeslayer> we need a session
[11:55] <murthy> shadeslayer: will this be available for viewing?
[11:55] <shadeslayer> just audio I believe
[11:55] <murthy> shadeslayer: oh only audio?
[11:55] <shadeslayer> you can join in and listen, we don't place restrictions
[11:55] <shadeslayer> yep
[11:56] <Riddell> shadeslayer: should someone be scheduling a session?
[11:56] <shadeslayer> Riddell: IMHO yes
[11:56] <shadeslayer> about what we want to do
[11:56] <shadeslayer> and how releases are going to work out and everything
[11:56] <murthy> shadeslayer: the complex config process you people where doing frightens me
[11:57] <shadeslayer> murthy: it wasn't really complex :P
[11:57] <shadeslayer> just bootstraping a juju instance, installing mumble on it and giving everyone access
[11:58] <murthy> shadeslayer: i hope you guys make it available later
[11:59] <shadeslayer> murthy: yeah, we will record everything and make it available
[11:59] <murthy> nice
[11:59] <murthy> going for a restart
[12:00] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: phonon gstreamer is your area of expertise
[12:00] <shadeslayer> no it's not
[12:00] <apachelogger> you ported to gst1...
[12:00] <shadeslayer> doesn't make it my area of expertise
[12:00] <apachelogger> also I think at some point I had a tool for audio device probing
[12:00] <shadeslayer> I still don't 'get' alot of the code
[12:00] <apachelogger> no clue where thatwen
[12:00] <apachelogger> t
[12:01] <apachelogger> alas, I never merged that into anything official
[12:01] <apachelogger> murthy: you could simly run amarok --debug-audio
[12:01] <apachelogger> to me it sounds though like your driver is crap
[12:01] <apachelogger> or alsa is broken
[12:01] <apachelogger> or pulse is broken
[12:02] <apachelogger> all three of them
[12:10] <apachelogger> murthy: did you work on tomahawk changes yet?
[12:14] <soee> letest homerun looks cool :)
[12:17]  * yofel goes publishing 4.10.1 to backports and prepares l10n
[12:17] <murthy> apachelogger: I have done the changes, need to test build, just now created a pbuilder base for quantal, going to test
[12:17] <murthy> apachelogger: i am wrong and its not amarok
[12:18] <murthy> apachelogger: like you said it should be pulse or phonon or alsa
[12:18] <murthy> yofel: so the lintian work will be for 4.10.2?
[12:19] <apachelogger> it's not phonon
[12:19] <yofel> murthy: yeah, we can merge it as soon as you want though
[12:19] <apachelogger> phonon does not cause buffer underruns
[12:19] <smartboyhw> yofel: Yeah
[12:19] <apachelogger> well, not actively anyway ^^
[12:20] <murthy> yofel: you mean now?
[12:20] <yofel> murthy: feel free to post it, someone will merge it as soon as there's time to review it
[12:21] <murthy> apachelogger: so the chipmuk voice is created due to buffer under run?
[12:21] <apachelogger> from your description it sounds like it
[12:21] <apachelogger> --debug-audio would know more :P
[12:21] <apachelogger> in fact it woudl probably tell you if it is an underrun or not :P
[12:22] <murthy> yofel: it wont be possible today
[12:22] <yofel> murthy: no problem
[12:22] <yofel> murthy: tomahawk has higher priority as tomorrow's feature freeze
[12:22] <murthy> yofel: ya
[12:22] <murthy> yofel: cool?
[12:23] <apachelogger> rekonq is so funny
[12:23] <apachelogger> like 3 years ago I reported a bug where when I was typing too fast the urlbar would discard already written characters upon load completion
[12:23] <smartboyhw> lol
[12:23] <apachelogger> that was apparently fixed, except now I see it again on quantal
[12:23] <apachelogger> ...
[12:24] <murthy> apachelogger: i will do the debugging after i finish with tomahawk
[12:24] <smartboyhw> Whoa!?!?
[12:24] <yofel> it's there in rekonq 2
[12:24] <yofel> (the bug)
[12:24]  * apachelogger shakes head
[12:24] <murthy> wow
[12:24] <apachelogger> how shitty is this
[12:24] <apachelogger> good loard
[12:25] <smartboyhw> lol
[12:25]  * apachelogger feels like proposing to ship 13.04 without browser
[12:25] <apachelogger> Riddell: didn't you upload user-manager?
[12:25] <smartboyhw> Whoa!?!?!?!?!?!???!
[12:25] <apachelogger> I don't see it anywhere
[12:26] <Riddell> apachelogger: it's in New
[12:26] <Riddell> or should be
[12:26] <Riddell> yes it is
[12:26] <Riddell> along with "unity-tweak-tool" that sounds fun
[12:27] <apachelogger> ah
[12:27] <Riddell> "qml-friends" hey they stole my friendly meme
[12:27] <apachelogger> :(
[12:27]  * smartboyhw thought somebody will approve unity-tweak-tool
[12:28] <yofel> that's not ubuntu-tweak renamed, is it?
[12:28] <apachelogger> if it is anything like the ubuntu-tweak thing from some years ago it will get le rejected
[12:28] <smartboyhw> I need to report it to the AskUbuntu guys
[12:28] <apachelogger> and then people will start whining
[12:28] <apachelogger> and then it will get rejected again...
[12:28] <smartboyhw> No.it's not
[12:28] <smartboyhw> It actually made it to multiple news headlimea, e.g OMG! Ubuntu
[12:29] <apachelogger> anything makes it to omgubuntu
[12:29] <Riddell> yeah, anyone can get on there, only really cool people get on slashdot :)
[12:30] <shadeslayer> or groklaw
[12:31] <Riddell> true true
[12:31] <shadeslayer> or HN ? :P
[12:31] <shadeslayer> oh lol
[12:31] <shadeslayer> Riddell: your wish came true
[12:31] <shadeslayer> Riddell: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21684329
[12:33] <murthy> yofel: i can see that you had done some changes to the build-depends of tomahawk , did it successfully build last time ?
[12:33] <Riddell> shadeslayer: naturally I think that was me reporting it that made them take action
[12:33] <shadeslayer> haha
[12:34] <yofel> murthy: in the PPA yes, you'll have to drop jreen for the archive I believe
[12:34] <shadeslayer> people from the EU commission hang out on #kubuntu-devel
[12:34] <yofel> that's not there
[12:34] <yofel> (XMPP stuff I believe)
[12:34] <murthy> yofel: in bazaar
[12:35] <yofel> murthy: where's the branch again?
[12:35] <murthy> yofel: i think i am wrong
[12:35] <yofel> (because I didn't change anything)
[12:35] <murthy> yofel: nm
[12:35] <Riddell> dear EU beurocrats: please stop saying nonsense about scotland having to apply for membership on independence
[12:35] <murthy> yofel: ya
[12:37] <smartboyhw> lol
[12:42] <apachelogger> sheytan: ping
[12:43] <yofel> rdieter: pykde4 question: fedora has no working python3 kpythonpluginfactory support, right? (at least from how I understand the spec file)
[12:44] <smartboyhw> Riddell: You were mentioned in http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/ubuntu-13-04-still-on-course-for-april-release
[12:44] <Riddell> smartboyhw: I just hope I'm right, but they can't back down now it's on omg ubuntu, that makes it official I'm sure
[12:44] <rdieter> yofel: correct.  i've not had any chance to look closer to how to make that all work (esp in parallel with python2)
[12:45] <apachelogger> Riddell is all over the news lately ^^
[12:53] <rdieter> yofel: how do you deal with it?  (only ship one, python3 kpythonpluginfactory?)
[12:54] <apachelogger> if we did a package transition in 11.10 can we drop the transitional packages?
[12:55] <yofel> apachelogger: yes
[12:55] <apachelogger> hooray
[12:55] <apachelogger> Riddell: do I need to file a binary removal request for that too?
[12:55] <yofel> rdieter: well, currently we only have python2 working as well, that's why I was looking for ideas elsewhere. Right *now* it's py2: kpythonpluginfactory.so, py3: kpythonpluginfactory.cpython-33m.so - which doesn't work
[12:55] <Riddell> apachelogger: you could just ask me and hope I'm responsive
[12:59] <yofel> hm, setting X-KDE-Library=kpythonpluginfactory.cypthon-33m in the script desktop file would probably work
[12:59] <yofel> totally unportable though
[13:00] <sheytan> apachelogger: pong
[13:00] <apachelogger> sheytan: plymouth...
[13:00] <apachelogger> feature freeze tomorrow :S
[13:00] <sheytan> today's evening
[13:00] <sheytan> got an idea
[13:00] <sheytan> at work now
[13:00] <apachelogger> k
[13:01] <sheytan> ping me at 7pm
[13:01] <apachelogger> yofel: why I think it should simply be called kpython3pluginfactory
[13:01] <yofel> :/
[13:01] <murthy> going for dinner
[13:02] <apachelogger> Riddell: uploaded kubuntu-web-shortcuts dropping kubutnu-konqueror-shortcuts transition, I also added a card to the 13.04 board for the binary removal
[13:03] <apachelogger> yofel: what's ppa package test btw?
[13:03] <yofel> ppa? I mean the dh_auto_test ones
[13:04] <yofel> at least what's possible
[13:04] <apachelogger> ah
[13:10] <Riddell> Removing packages from raring: kubuntu-konqueror-shortcuts 11.10ubuntu2 in raring amd64
[13:10] <Riddell> etc
[13:11] <Riddell> apachelogger: ⇈
[13:11] <apachelogger> yaythx
[13:16] <Riddell> hmm http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21646/foundations-1303-consolekit-logind-migration/
[13:16] <Riddell> I wonder what that means for KDE
[13:18] <shadeslayer> :(
[13:18] <shadeslayer> no skanlite dbus interface
[13:19] <shadeslayer> can't script scanning multiple documents
[13:20] <shadeslayer> I get to scan all 36 pages manually \o/
[13:21] <yofel> WTF?
[13:21] <yofel> Launchpad encountered an error during the following operation: copying a package.  bovo 4:4.10.1-0ubuntu1~ubuntu12.10~ppa1 in quantal (Cannot copy restricted files to a public archive without explicit unembargo option.)
[13:23] <smartboyhw> grrr!?
[13:23] <smartboyhw> .....
[13:24] <yofel> I'll try a synchronized copy when I'm done with l10n
[13:24] <yofel> funny enough https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/backports/+packages times out now
[13:30] <yofel> hm, I didn't set the API call right
[13:30]  * yofel fixes
[13:30] <Riddell> I don't think there's anything I want to watch at UDS today until this evening when I'm busy :(
[13:33] <yofel> I might listen to the QA discussion in 1.5h, maybe they have some ideas for rolling that we could reuse
[13:33] <yofel> shadeslayer: ^
[13:33] <shadeslayer> can you ping me when that starts
[13:34] <apachelogger> Riddell: logind means nothing much other than consolekit code needs to be replaced
[13:35] <yofel> sure
[13:35] <apachelogger> though from what I have seen that is ifdef'd with logind anyway
[13:36]  * shadeslayer is writing a script using scanimage
[13:37] <yofel> shadeslayer: how do you script inserting paper? "sudo make-me-a-sandwitch" style? ^^
[13:37] <shadeslayer> hahah
[13:37] <shadeslayer> nah, that's done manually by men
[13:37] <shadeslayer> s/men/people/
[13:37] <kubotu> shadeslayer meant: "nah, that's done manually by people"
[13:38] <Riddell> apachelogger: right but we have some consolekit code in KDE no?
[13:38] <apachelogger> Riddell: we also have appropriate logind code in KDE ;)
[13:39] <apachelogger> i.e. AFAIK you cannot have a systemd+consolekit setup, so for all the systemd setups you'd need to have logind code already
[13:40] <apachelogger> Riddell, ScottK: did I miss it or was it really not discussed how to do LTS releases from rolling yet?
[13:40] <ScottK> It was not.
[13:41] <ScottK> It got mentioned, but that's about it.
[13:41] <Riddell> apachelogger: that issue is over a year away, no discussion needs to happen until a week before it happens
[13:41] <apachelogger> I guess :P
[13:43]  * apachelogger draws graphics
[13:50] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[13:50] <smartboyhw> hiyad
[13:51] <murthy> BluesKaj: hi
[13:52] <BluesKaj> hi murthy
[14:04] <jussi> Now then, who do I blame for this....
[14:04] <jussi> /var/cache/apt/archives/plasma-widget-homerun_0.2.1-0ubuntu2_i386.deb
[14:04] <jussi> trying to overwrite '/usr/share/kde4/apps/plasma/plasmoids/org.kde.homerun/contents/ui/config.ui', which is also in package homerun 0.2.0~git20130118+r500-23~quantal1
[14:05] <murthy> yofel: is it wrong to exploit launchpad by using priority as extra?
[14:05]  * smartboyhw is to be blamed by jussi
[14:06] <jussi> smartboyhw: you are forgiven if you fix it...
[14:06] <yofel> murthy: why exploit? That's dpkg stuff, and extra is the lowest priority that exists (see policy)
[14:06] <smartboyhw> Wait why is it a -0ubuntu2?
[14:06] <yofel> murthy: that's the idea: put transitional packages into the deprecated section with lowest priority
[14:06] <murthy> yofel: my cpu is p4 and its slow
[14:07] <yofel> murthy: I don't get what you want to say...
[14:07] <murthy> yofel: i thought of putting it in the ppa to see the buildlogs
[14:07] <Riddell> jussi: presumably that old homerun package comes from some dodgy PPA?
[14:08] <yofel> smartboyhw: ubuntu2 was the missing watch file
[14:08] <smartboyhw> jussi: Are you having a PPA?
[14:09] <murthy> yofel: in my system it may take 30 mins for building tomahawk, if i put the priority as extra and push to to my ppa launchpad might build it soon and i  can see the buildlog soon
[14:09] <smartboyhw> With special homerun in it?
[14:09] <jussi> smartboyhw: no idea... its on my "evil ppa's are ok" machine, so maybe
[14:09] <yofel> murthy: as I said, the *Priority* field has nothing to do with launchpad
[14:09] <yofel> murthy: what you mean is the package urgency
[14:09] <yofel> murthy: and use medium please
[14:10] <murthy> yofel: ya thats what i mean
[14:10] <yofel> (that would be fine if it's blocking your work)
[14:10] <murthy> yofel:  isnt priority field= package urgency ?
[14:11] <yofel> uhm, no. Those are totally different things
[14:11] <yofel> Priority: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-Priority
[14:12] <yofel> urgency: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-Urgency
[14:13] <murthy> ok
[14:13] <jussi> ahem... smartboyhw, Riddell.... blue-shell-homerun-quantal.list  :P
[14:13] <murthy> yofel: does launchpad route critical priority to faster computers?
[14:14] <apachelogger> :@
[14:14] <yofel> murthy: no, but the queue manager looks at it when scheduleing your build: https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/BuildScores
[14:16] <yofel> murthy: debian uses it similiar, except there it is used for calculating after how many days a package goes from unstable to testing
[14:16] <murthy> apachelogger: tomahawk needs either one of these or both "-DBUILD_RELEASE=ON"  " -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release" , have to check by removing one of those. Building fails when removing both of them
[14:17] <apachelogger> yeah
[14:17] <apachelogger> what's the error?
[14:18] <murthy> apachelogger: couldn't find the x86_64_gnu_linux dir, the dir name is something i can remember
[14:19] <murthy> apachelogger: libqtweetlib-dev is not available, removed it and its building, have to wait till the end to see the result
[14:19] <murthy> yofel: ok
[14:20] <apachelogger> don't get it
[14:20] <apachelogger> buildlog please
[14:21] <murthy> apachelogger: you have to wait for a long time
[14:22] <murthy> apachelogger: where is this package? libqtweetlib-dev
[14:22] <apachelogger> Riddell: agateau's ubiquity stuff is not yet in the archive?
[14:23] <apachelogger> !info libqtweetlib-dev
[14:23] <Riddell> apachelogger: I did ask about a ubiquity upload and didn't get a reply
[14:23] <apachelogger> !info libqtweetlib-dev raring
[14:23] <apachelogger> murthy: ^
[14:23] <murthy> apachelogger: ya
[14:23] <yofel> murthy: ppa only
[14:23] <xnox> apachelogger: Riddell: i'm not planning to upload at the moment (busy with uds)
[14:23] <apachelogger> Riddell: :/
[14:23]  * yofel forgot what the lib does
[14:23] <yofel> the description is junk
[14:23]  * xnox is still working on a new plugin for ubiquity-gtk.
[14:24] <murthy> apachelogger: so?
[14:24] <apachelogger> yofel: it's a twitter library obviously :P
[14:24] <murthy> yofel: ppa?
[14:24] <apachelogger> murthy: needs packaging
[14:24] <yofel> xnox: fine as long as you get our new UI uploaded post feature freeze
[14:24] <murthy> apachelogger: ok
[14:24] <apachelogger> I'd give  a long speech about one shoudl first pin down requirements but I'll not do that today as I am in a bad mood already
[14:24] <xnox> yofel: from my point of view all of this has "landed" before ff, not uploaded. We still need to do translation export from launchpad and sync up d-i translations from debian.
[14:24] <xnox> should be all fine.
[14:25] <yofel> great
[14:25] <apachelogger> hm
[14:25] <apachelogger> anyone knows whether one can have KMS on qemu?
[14:41] <soee> old KDE wallpaper works much better with homerun on desktop http://wstaw.org/w/1JCi/
[14:45] <Darkwing> morning
[14:45] <murthy> yofel: can you package libqtweetlib-dev and libjreen-dev ?
[14:47] <yofel> murthy: there's example packaging in the tomahaw ppa, but I have other priorities right now
[14:47] <murthy> yofel: ok
[14:47] <murthy> yofel: its just the limited time
[14:48] <yofel> I know
[14:48] <yofel> are they required?
[14:48] <murthy> yofel: optional
[14:49] <murthy> yofel: why are these optional packages put in build-deepens instead of recommended?
[14:50] <yofel> there is no Build-Recommends
[14:50] <yofel> apachelogger: worth uploading without them? IMO they're not *the* killer features of tomahawk
[14:50] <murthy> yofel: i can across some fiels named recommended
[14:50] <yofel> murthy: for binary packages, yes, but not the source
[14:50] <murthy> yofel: ok
[14:51] <yofel> -> policy
[14:51] <murthy> yofel: you mean like we remove the build-depends of the two packages?
[14:51] <yofel> yes
[14:51] <murthy> apachelogger: funny thing is happening
[14:53] <murthy> apachelogger: to narrow the one option that is not required i removed one and it compiled and after that i put it again and removed the other and now it is also getting bilt
[14:54] <apachelogger> Oo
[14:54] <murthy> apachelogger: 34%
[14:54] <apachelogger> how are you building?
[14:54] <murthy> apachelogger: pbuilder
[14:54] <apachelogger> yofel: if it means making feature freeze
[14:55] <yofel> right
[14:55] <apachelogger> I'd rather FFE for a feature than the entire thing
[14:56] <apachelogger> fwiw our live image does not start on 384 mib ram
[14:56] <apachelogger> goes OOM
[14:57] <ScottK> Doens't surprise me.
[14:57] <yofel> shadeslayer: ->  #ubuntu-uds-community-1
[14:58] <apachelogger> ScottK: that's up to ubiquity-dm though
[14:58] <apachelogger> one would think that works
[14:58] <apachelogger> or at least I did ^^
[14:58] <shadeslayer> yofel: thanks, and where can I hear their discussions
[14:58] <ScottK> Oh.
[14:58]  * apachelogger forgot how to send keycodes to qemu
[14:58] <yofel> shadeslayer: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21670/community-1303-quality-rolling/
[14:58] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: ctrl+alt+f1
[14:58] <shadeslayer> erm
[14:58] <shadeslayer> f2
[14:59] <shadeslayer> and then sendkey ctrl-alt-foo
[14:59] <shadeslayer> aha, it'll begin a  bit
[15:01] <apachelogger> I broke it
[15:01] <apachelogger> noes
[15:05] <apachelogger> sheytan: and how do you set the resolution?
[15:05] <apachelogger> eh shadeslayer^
[15:06] <shadeslayer> resolution?
[15:06] <shadeslayer> ask the internets
[15:06] <apachelogger> doesn't know
[15:06] <shadeslayer> you're not searching hard enough
[15:06] <shadeslayer> I don't remember it off the top of my head
[15:08] <apachelogger> apparently it should resize automagically
[15:08] <apachelogger> except it doesnt
[15:08] <ScottK> There may be a momentary disturbance in the force.
[15:08] <ScottK> I just uploaded a new sip4.  PyQt to follow.
[15:10] <shadeslayer> heh
[15:10] <shadeslayer> yofel: I don't see any video
[15:10] <yofel> it's ongoing, reload the page if it's hung
[15:11] <shadeslayer> :S
[15:11] <apachelogger> hm
[15:11] <apachelogger> you know
[15:11] <apachelogger> LTS+KDE as release has problems
[15:12] <apachelogger> in terms of hardware compat
[15:12] <Riddell> apachelogger: not so much using backported lts bits
[15:12] <apachelogger> to run semi-new laptops you often require latest kernel and/or Xstack
[15:12] <yofel> not if you incorporate the harware enablement stack
[15:12] <apachelogger> so unless there are somewhat liberal foundation backports this ought to be a shitty solution in a lot of cases
[15:13] <apachelogger> yofel: do you really think that is going to happen?
[15:14] <apachelogger> i.e. I think the present foundations stack backports are done because we have no moving target which you can base a fast paced deployment on
[15:15] <apachelogger> so that would be fixed by switching to rolling
[15:17] <yofel> rolling is currently not meant for users and companies, so if they ship new hardware, the backports are critical
[15:17] <ScottK> apachelogger: They are planning on doing hardware enablement backports.
[15:18] <ScottK> (like they did for 12.04.2.)
[15:18] <ScottK> They know they have to figure out how to do that.
[15:18] <apachelogger> hm
[15:19] <apachelogger> this will be so much fun
[15:19] <apachelogger> ScottK: when do you backport from a moving target? :D
[15:20] <ScottK> Good question.  Not yet answered.
[15:20] <ScottK> You are not, however, the first to ask it.
[15:20] <apachelogger> not sure there is a sensible answer
[15:21] <ScottK> AFAICT, it's on the "stuff we have to figure out" list.
[15:21] <micahg> apachelogger: whenever what you're backporting is stable, same as now
[15:21] <ScottK> I think it's take a snapshot of the kernel and X and then test the stuffing out of it on the LTS base.
[15:21] <apachelogger> micahg: but how do you define that in terms of the entire stack?
[15:23] <apachelogger> to me it seems that what that would end up as is picking it a random point in time when it appears to work well in rolling, then backport and QA hammer until sufficient quality is reached
[15:23] <apachelogger> which is like a release freeze implemented via backporting
[15:23] <micahg> apachelogger: I don't see rolling as any different from a dev release WRT this
[15:24] <ScottK> micahg: But they don't currently backport from the dev series, they do it from the current release.
[15:24] <apachelogger> micahg: yeah, except even in dev releases we have transitional periods and such, plus the enablement backport would have to work well with the old userspace, not just the rolling one
[15:24] <apachelogger> and what ScottK said
[15:25] <apachelogger> right now you know the stack itself is internally compatible as it went through release QA
[15:25] <apachelogger> so you only need to establish it as stable with teh old userspace
[15:25] <apachelogger> with rolling you have this additinal release QA
[15:26] <apachelogger> *don't have
[15:28] <micahg> ScottK: who?
[15:28] <micahg> I've done backports from devel release to stable
[15:28]  * micahg is wondering if he missed the beginning of this
[15:28] <ScottK> micahg: The LTS hardware enablement backports (they aren't properly backports in our sense)
[15:29] <micahg> oh, heh, right
[15:29] <ScottK> lts-quantal-foo for 12.04.2 being the most recent example.
[15:30] <apachelogger> oh, also in terms of KDE ... if we needed to build against a hardware enablement backport to get a new KDE backported we basically have to do release-style QA on that
[15:30] <micahg> yeah, I'd say once it's in the stabler part of the RR for X period of time with no RC bugs
[15:30] <apachelogger> as then the foundation is not LTS *and* KDE isn't
[15:30] <apachelogger> plus the foundation is more than likely not the same as is then present in rolling
[15:30] <apachelogger> :S
[15:30]  * apachelogger gets dizzy again
[15:33] <murthy> apachelogger: tomahawk builds without the two options, i have no explanation for this
[15:34] <murthy> apachelogger: should i drop libjreen-dev and libqtweetlib-dev ?
[15:34] <apachelogger> yes
[15:34] <murthy> apachelogger: why is this name like this libqtweetlib-dev ?
[15:35] <apachelogger> because the soname is libqtweetlib
[15:35] <murthy> apachelogger: why?
[15:35] <murthy> apachelogger: why it is not libqtweet?
[15:35] <mikhas> Riddell, I wasnt aware that planetkde.org is moderated
[15:35] <apachelogger> murthy: because of upstream
[15:36] <mikhas> but sometimes I wish more planets were … to keep them somewhat on topic
[15:36] <apachelogger> they called it qtweetlib, which on unix becomes libqtweetlib.so
[15:36] <apachelogger> on windows I believe it will actually be qtweetlib.dll
[15:36] <mikhas> now, PGO is decisively *not* just about Gnome development, but about the people behind Gnome and what's going on in their lifes
[15:36] <apachelogger> though I may be mistaken
[15:36] <apachelogger> haven't built stuff on windows in a while
[15:36] <murthy> apachelogger: why qtweetlib?
[15:36] <apachelogger> because
[15:37] <murthy> apachelogger: why not libqtweet
[15:37] <Riddell> mikhas: a light touch approach but see Planet KDE Guidelines under  Add your blog in http://planetkde.org/
[15:37] <murthy> apachelogger: why?
[15:37] <apachelogger> mikhas: it's not actively moderated, it just has guidelines on what to post ^^
[15:37] <apachelogger> murthy: because
[15:38] <apachelogger> why earth and not moin?
[15:38] <apachelogger> why table and not frroop
[15:38] <apachelogger> why chair and not lllllll
[15:38] <apachelogger> equally silly questions
[15:38] <murthy> apachelogger: because
[15:38] <apachelogger> exactly
[15:38] <murthy> ha ha ha
[15:39] <apachelogger> if I want to call the display system I work on libliblibbilbilbobphotonlibibliblibllib that is totally within my right
[15:40] <apachelogger> the so name then still would be lib+libliblibbilbilbobphotonlibibliblibllib+.so
[15:41] <murthy> apachelogger: thats a silly name
[15:41] <apachelogger> not it's not
[15:41] <apachelogger> it's just a very long acronym
[15:43] <murthy> apachelogger: http://paste.kde.org/688820/
[15:43] <murthy> apachelogger: done all that you asked, shall i commit
[15:43] <apachelogger>  tomahawk (0.6.0~beta1-0ubuntu1~ppa1~quantal1) quantal; urgency=low
[15:44] <apachelogger> you should merge wiht 0.6.0
[15:44] <yofel> murthy: trash the whole changelog, and go with "Initial release"
[15:44] <yofel> and there's a packaging bug on LP somewhere
[15:44] <apachelogger> I'd preserve the history
[15:44] <yofel> really?
[15:44] <apachelogger> yes
[15:44] <yofel> ok...
[15:44] <apachelogger> we are also preserving the bzr history
[15:45] <apachelogger> so I'd keep the changelog to go along with that
[15:45] <apachelogger> no point in throwing away perfectly valuable data :)
[15:45] <apachelogger> that's just old conservative me though
[15:45] <murthy> they call this uds? its udm
[15:46] <apachelogger> hm?
[15:46] <murthy> apachelogger: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21670/community-1303-quality-rolling/
[15:46] <yofel> that session was like... nothing new
[15:46] <murthy> very shot
[15:46] <murthy> very short
[15:46] <apachelogger> m?
[15:46] <yofel> and I was ignored
[15:47] <murthy> i expected some heated arguments
[15:47] <apachelogger> yofel: I told them to, sorry for that :S
[15:47] <murthy> yofel:  you?
[15:47] <yofel> kubotu: throw something at apachelogger
[15:47] <yofel> :(
[15:47] <apachelogger> :S
[15:47] <apachelogger> kubotu: order a shield
[15:47]  * kubotu slides a shield down the bar to apachelogger
[15:47] <apachelogger> once more unto the breach
[15:47] <yofel> murthy: weeeelllll, I asked about how they intend to Q/A mesa upgrades, which went unnoticed
[15:48] <yofel> nevermind
[15:48] <murthy> yofel: thats a very important question
[15:48] <apachelogger> they don't :P
[15:48] <apachelogger> QA is not agile
[15:48] <yofel> I guess that's yet another thing we have to figure out ourselves
[15:48] <yofel> or just ask the X team
[15:48] <apachelogger> as I said earlier
[15:49] <apachelogger> we are potentially looking at much more QA work on our part
[15:49] <yofel> s/potentially//
[15:49] <kubotu> yofel: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed"
[15:49] <murthy> most of the people hitting #kubuntu suffer from driver problem syndrome
[15:50] <murthy> apachelogger: i can push it to my branch but i dont know how to merge it with 0.6.0
[15:50] <apachelogger> bzr merge? S:
[15:51] <murthy> apachelogger: do i have rights?
[15:51] <apachelogger> yofel: as long as we don't have to use hardware enablement we have less work...
[15:51] <apachelogger> particularly since opinions now seem to converge on advanced-user target audience for rolling
[15:52] <apachelogger> which means business as usual
[15:52] <apachelogger> and focus on LTS backports
[15:52] <yofel> apachelogger: well, it matters if we for example now want people to install kubuntu on something with secure boot
[15:52] <apachelogger> yofel: why's that?
[15:52] <yofel> if we only have rolling, and don't update the LTS. We'll have nothing rock-stable people could install
[15:53] <murthy> yofel: from the debian priority docs that you gave , i know that the partners are given higher priority
[15:53] <yofel> murthy: again, priority or urgency?
[15:53] <apachelogger> yofel: I think it is save to assume that we will advocate LTS+KDE as our stable releaes product
[15:53] <murthy> yofel: oops urgency
[15:53] <apachelogger> rolling is just, well, git master :P
[15:53] <yofel> murthy: yes
[15:54] <yofel> apachelogger: it's not supposed to be git master. It's supposed to be  a Q/A'd git snapshot
[15:54] <yofel> whatever tha tis
[15:54] <apachelogger> No
[15:54] <apachelogger> It is supposed to be an always releasable master.
[15:55] <yofel> ok, in that case you're right
[15:55] <apachelogger> Same as KDE. Otherwise we'd not have build.kde.org to do build QA :P
[15:55] <yofel> (neither would neon work actually)
[15:55] <apachelogger> As it seems right now it almost perfectly maps to how KDE does development.
[15:56] <murthy> apachelogger: one of the participant said in case of a rolling release it is upgrade centric rather than image centric. What are problems we will probably facing?
[15:56] <murthy> yofel: ^
[15:56] <yofel> well, if we can get KDE to care a bit more about Q/A-ing every 4th release, then sure
[15:57] <apachelogger> murthy: no
[15:57] <murthy> apachelogger: no what?
[15:57] <apachelogger> yofel: Why?
[15:57] <yofel> murthy: there are daily images which are always supposed to work, so that's not really the case
[15:58] <apachelogger> yofel: If KDE says it is stable, it is stable.
[15:58] <yofel> yeah, right.....
[15:58] <murthy> ha ha ha
[15:58] <apachelogger> There is no metric through which we as downstream can establish whether a KDE thing is stable
[15:58] <apachelogger> also stable is an overused term anyway
[15:58] <apachelogger> what's stable?
[15:58] <yofel> doesn't eat your neutrons
[15:58] <murthy> apachelogger: particularly in kde
[15:58] <apachelogger> Building? Installing? Not crashing? Not having feature regressions? Having all features desired? ....
[15:59]  * yofel wonders how they're going to Q/A ubiquity
[15:59] <yofel> can't really do that without an image
[15:59] <apachelogger> Having no critical bugs? Wha are critical bugs then? What about semi-criticial bugs?...
[16:00] <yofel> nobody cares about semi critical bugs, otherwise our LTS wouldn't show akonadi warnings on every boot anymore
[16:00] <xnox> we have jenkins to do automatic testing of all the default tasks / ways to install desktop image. It's preseed based + manual test case, we do not at the moment have UI testing (automatic with like autopilot) but working on that.
[16:00] <xnox> yofel: what akonadi warnings are you refereeing to?
[16:01] <yofel> xnox: misconfigured default mail folder settings
[16:01] <murthy> apachelogger: i dont have a 0.6.0 local branch
[16:01] <yofel> for example
[16:01] <yofel> xnox: it breaks exactly nothing, it just looks bad
[16:01] <xnox> yofel: no idea. it's a bug in akonadi then, not in ubiquity, right?
[16:02] <yofel> xnox: that wasn't about ubiquity (I mixed the topics up, sorry)
[16:02] <apachelogger> gj :P
[16:02] <murthy> apachelogger: are you ok with the changes?
[16:02] <yofel> xnox: what's tested in jenkins? the installation parts?
[16:02] <apachelogger> yofel: as I said there is no metric
[16:03] <apachelogger> when upstream says it is stable and it builds+installs+autotests we must assume it is
[16:03] <yofel> apachelogger: sure, but fact is that kde 4.8 will stay around for a while longer
[16:03] <yofel> and there's interfaces to like... twitter or whatever else built-in
[16:03] <apachelogger> yofel: I am not talking about the past
[16:03] <yofel> those might change
[16:03] <apachelogger> also I think I fixed the akonadi crap
[16:03] <apachelogger> then no one QAd my fix
[16:03] <apachelogger> as every f'ing time
[16:04] <yofel> that doesn't sound unlikely....
[16:04] <apachelogger> need to beg for 3 months to get phonon releases QAd
[16:04] <jessie> Is 10.1 not coming out in the beta/experimental PPAs?
[16:05] <yofel> jessie: it's in the backports ppa
[16:05] <jessie> yofel: Which one?
[16:06] <yofel> ppa:kubuntu-ppa/backports
[16:06] <jessie> Oh, nevermind. Awesome! I was wondering why my updates seemed to have stopped. :-)
[16:06] <Riddell> Blizzz: how is the owncloud sqlite backend doing?
[16:07] <Riddell> is there a reason not to have it has default?
[16:12] <Blizzz> Riddell: if possible, prefer mysql. sqlite is ok with few users, not with many. And it seems it is not very reliable in terms of database upgrades.
[16:15] <Riddell> Blizzz: ok will stay with mysql
[16:15] <Riddell> Quintasan: watching http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21688/desktop-r-ubuntukylin-inputmethod-ibus-or-fcitx/ ?
[16:16] <micahg> ScottK: were you the one who mentioned derivative distros?
[16:16] <murthy> apachelogger: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~murthy/tomahawk/tomahawk-ubuntu/revision/5?start_revid=5
[16:16] <ScottK> micahg: Yes.
[16:17] <micahg> ScottK: I think that might be the best shot for flavors in the new world without losing security support, derive from LTS, upload new stack, new derived series based on LTS per upstream release
[16:18] <ScottK> That's what I'm thinking.
[16:18] <apachelogger> murthy: copyright still has no newline at the end of the file
[16:18] <murthy> apachelogger:  why is this happening
[16:19] <murthy> apachelogger: i put a new line at the end
[16:19] <yofel> ScottK, micahg: how much control over the packages in such a derived series does one have?
[16:19] <yofel> limited to packageset?
[16:19] <micahg> yofel: total (you inherit everything by default and override what you like AIUI
[16:19] <yofel> ok
[16:19] <murthy> apachelogger: line 309?
[16:20] <yofel> then it would be an option, right
[16:20] <micahg> yofel: I think the only new bits we'd need would be a release upgrader between versions
[16:20] <murthy> apachelogger: am using kate
[16:20] <murthy> apachelogger: shit
[16:20] <murthy> apachelogger: there is a tab
[16:20] <apachelogger> murthy: you have add 0xA 0x20
[16:21] <apachelogger> aka \n(space)
[16:21] <murthy> apachelogger: can kate show hidden chars?
[16:21] <apachelogger> yeah
[16:21] <apachelogger> there is a setting somewhere
[16:21] <murthy> apachelogger: ?
[16:22] <murthy> we need homerunner
[16:31]  * yofel adds randr stuff splitting todo to trello
[16:32] <murthy> apachelogger: http://paste.kde.org/688862/
[16:32] <murthy> apachelogger: now ok?
[16:39] <Quintasan> Riddell, not really, I'm still at uni, I will ask certain people later if Ubuntu will be making the switch
[16:40] <Riddell> Quintasan: nah it's not yet, but they were interested in our reasons for not switching
[16:42] <mikhas> which switch?
[16:42] <mikhas> sorry havent been following
[16:42] <Quintasan> as in upstream being interested why Ubuntu is still using IBus?
[16:42] <mikhas> and instead use fcitx?
[16:43] <Quintasan> mikhas, there are people advocating the switch from IBus to glitz
[16:43] <mikhas> glitz, hm
[16:43] <Quintasan> because it has better de integration and whatnot
[16:43] <mikhas> never heard of it unless it refers to that weird OpenGL experiment in Gnome
[16:44] <mikhas> weeeell, you *could* argue that IBus has turned into something Gnome3-specific
[16:44] <Quintasan> no, it's new input method manager, as far as I can say it is better than IBus
[16:44] <mikhas> but you have to admit that the DE integration is done nicely there
[16:45] <mikhas> am googeling
[16:45] <mikhas> aaaand … hard to google!
[16:45] <mikhas> Quintasan, got link?
[16:46] <ScottK> Quintasan: I thought fcitx didn't support as many languages as ibus?
[16:46] <Riddell> it doesn't support korean
[16:46] <Riddell> there seems to now be a japanese module
[16:46] <Riddell> and the chinese love it, which is why ubuntu kylim are using it
[16:47] <mikhas> there is libhangul for Korean
[16:47] <mikhas> if someone wanted to have Korean in fcitx, you could add it
[16:48] <mikhas> fcitx is loved because of raw input performance, or so I heard
[16:48] <mikhas> IBus is supposedly slow in that regard
[16:49] <mikhas> not being a native Chinese, it's hard for me to verify those claims myself
[16:49] <Quintasan> IBus is written in Python that's why it's slow
[16:50] <mikhas> that's way too simplistic
[16:50] <mikhas> IBus architecture (and flexibility) is perhaps more to blame than Python itself
[16:52] <Quintasan> I think upstream said they are interested  in adding new languages Riddell
[16:52] <Quintasan> as in fcitx upstream
[16:56] <Quintasan> it's a matter of time imo
[16:59] <ScottK> I think that's a prerequisite to switching.
[16:59] <ScottK> Once there's language coverage, then it's probably a reasonable thing to do.
[17:01]  * Riddell joins #ubuntu-uds-plenary
[17:06] <Quintasan> ScottK++
[17:11] <murthy> apachelogger: are you there?
[17:12] <Riddell> oh gosh
[17:13] <Riddell> this plenary has a lightning talk encouraging people to do karaoke
[17:15] <murthy> apachelogger: can you do the merging ?
[17:28] <ScottK> Riddell: Good to know this UDS is being taken seriously.
[17:29] <skellat> ScottK: It sounds like the contingencies discussion is going to seem so out of place then
[17:29] <Riddell> ScottK: plenty of time for more speakers if you want to do a talk
[17:29] <ScottK> Riddell: I can't think of a CoC compliant topic.
[17:30] <mikhas> haha
[17:30] <mikhas> ScottK, register a slot and dont say anything for a solid 15 minutes
[17:31] <mikhas> that would be CoC compliant and still get your point across, no? ;-)
[17:31] <ScottK> I think I've probably got my point across on u-devel.
[17:33] <xnox> yofel: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Raring/view/Smoke%20Testing/
[17:33] <xnox> yofel: that's ubiquity & d-i based images.
[17:33] <xnox> and server as well.
[17:51] <apachelogger> murthy_, yofel: the description is le fun
[17:51] <apachelogger> : jabber/gtalk/twitter friends and share collections and playlists."
[17:52] <apachelogger> those are names and gtalk is really not called gtalk...
[17:52] <apachelogger> murthy_: still no 0.6.0
[17:53] <apachelogger> oh now I see
[17:53] <apachelogger> cool
[17:53]  * apachelogger blinks
[17:53]  * apachelogger blinks some more
[17:53] <apachelogger> murthy_: where did you derive the packaging from?
[17:54] <apachelogger> aha
[17:54] <apachelogger> right
[17:54]  * apachelogger throws up all over launchpad
[17:54] <apachelogger> you'd think there are limits to the amount of fragementation one *must* introduce on *one* system
[17:54] <apachelogger> spoileralert: there is not
[17:59]  * apachelogger should be leaving :@
[18:00] <apachelogger> any dev around?
[18:02] <apachelogger> murthy_: W: tomahawk source: out-of-date-standards-version 3.9.2 (current is 3.9.4)
[18:03] <apachelogger>     - Drop build-depends
[18:03] <apachelogger>       + libqtweetlib-dev
[18:03] <apachelogger>       + libjreen-dev
[18:04] <apachelogger> murthy_: btw, the why is more interesting than the what
[18:10] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: ssup?
[18:10] <shadeslayer> though I should be leaving as well
[18:13]  * valorie puts on Kubuntu hat to prepare for Xub. session
[18:16] <apachelogger> valorie: hf
[18:16] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: ~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/tomahawk
[18:17] <apachelogger> needs le urgent review
[18:17] <shadeslayer> aw
[18:17] <shadeslayer> needs review?
[18:17] <apachelogger> secondary review even
[18:17] <apachelogger> just to be save
[18:19] <shadeslayer> tomorrow
[18:20]  * apachelogger throws keyboard
[18:20] <apachelogger> feature freeze is not waiting because you had to go to bed
[18:20] <valorie> thanks to whomever put the "Worries" into the pad
[18:20] <apachelogger> the documented looked very useful when I looked at it some 6 hours ago
[18:26] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: I hate you
[18:27] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: :*
[18:27] <apachelogger> imagine how yofel must feel ;)
[18:27] <yofel> zZzZzzzz...
[18:28]  * yofel is listening to the xubuntu session anyway
[18:28] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/tomahawk/".
[18:28] <shadeslayer> yofel: likewise
[18:28] <shadeslayer> valorie: basically PPA's use qemu for ARM builds, but qemu segfaults
[18:28] <apachelogger> oh
[18:28] <shadeslayer> when building KDE
[18:29] <apachelogger> you people should be in the session ...
[18:29] <shadeslayer> or rather moc makes qemu segfault
[18:29] <apachelogger> lazy kids
[18:29] <apachelogger> -.-
[18:29] <shadeslayer> no, I'm too lazy
[18:29] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: lp:~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/tomhawk
[18:30] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: is dbg really needed?
[18:30] <shadeslayer> dbgsym ftw
[18:30] <apachelogger> does no harm for now
[18:31] <apachelogger> plus kdebuginstaller still doesn't handle dbgsym
[18:31] <apachelogger> oh actually
[18:31] <shadeslayer> bah :(
[18:31] <shadeslayer> but
[18:31] <apachelogger> for tomahawk it would nto be used anyway
[18:31] <apachelogger> ...
[18:31] <shadeslayer> tomahawk doesn't use kdebuginstaller
[18:31] <apachelogger> all the more reaosn to have a dbg pkg
[18:31] <apachelogger> :P
[18:32] <shadeslayer> *shrug* just a minor suggestion
[18:32] <shadeslayer> G+ doesn't work at all for me
[18:32] <shadeslayer> stupid piece of shit
[18:33] <shadeslayer> all I get is http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/06/plasma-desktopja3016.png
[18:34] <apachelogger> micahg: is lintian warning hardening-no-fortify-functions something I shoudl be concerned about?
[18:35] <micahg> apachelogger: yeah, it's built in overflow protection AIUI
[18:35] <apachelogger> yofel: I wonder if we should be using usr/lib/tomahawk/libexec ... W: tomahawk: file-in-unusual-dir usr/libexec/tomahawk_crash_reporter
[18:38] <apachelogger> micahg: appears to be caused by qt
[18:38] <apachelogger> http://lintian.debian.org/tags/hardening-no-fortify-functions.html
[18:38] <apachelogger> loads and loads of qt based stuff ^^
[18:43] <apachelogger> Riddell, ScottK, yofel, shadeslayer: partitionmanager appears to be unmaintained
[18:44] <shadeslayer> :*
[18:45] <Kris_CGo> So despite the mir drama, kubuntu is still moving forward with wayland, or holding back for 1-2 years for mir for no real advantages beyond mobile drivers(which is a huge advantage if you want to be mobile). Just curious.
[18:45]  * apachelogger conducts hat inspection
[18:47] <apachelogger> Kris_CGo: KDE is still targetting Wayland as that is where the better part of the world goes.
[18:48] <Kris_CGo> apachelogger: I wish wayland came to be ages ago, X is terrible lol
[18:48] <apachelogger> kubotu: order beer for valorie
[18:48]  * kubotu gives valorie a nice frosty mug of beer.
[18:49] <apachelogger> valorie: <3 for hat
[18:49] <apachelogger> also I think what has been said the past 5 minutes seems very much in line with what kubuntu wants to do moving forward
[18:50] <apachelogger> Kris_CGo: Yeah well. :)
[18:50] <shadeslayer> what apachelogger just said
[18:51] <shadeslayer> 6 month support cycle + interim cycles sounds awesome
[18:51] <valorie> <3 to all of you
[18:51] <apachelogger> yofel: I'd really like a thought on the libexec thing
[18:52] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: why is that an issue?
[18:52] <shadeslayer> because lintian complains?
[18:54] <apachelogger> because it's not in the FHS
[18:55] <apachelogger> putting it in /usr/lib/* makes it FHS compliant
[18:55]  * apachelogger needs to leave for about half an hour
[18:55] <shadeslayer> hm
[19:07] <yofel> now that session was productive for a change
[19:07] <ScottK> Oh?
[19:08] <yofel> ScottK: rick will make another proposal for the derived distro thing, or preferably just shorting usual release support timeframe to only a bit more than 6 months
[19:08] <shadeslayer> yeah
[19:08] <shadeslayer> yofel: I thought micahg was going to do that
[19:08] <yofel> well, him and rick
[19:08] <ScottK> Should be at least 12.
[19:08] <shadeslayer> ah okay
[19:08] <ScottK> You've got to support current and current -1.
[19:09] <yofel> ScottK: does it need to? IMO ~9 would be enough for people to find time to upgrade
[19:09] <shadeslayer> ScottK: the 6 month support is actually more in sync with KDE, so isn't that a good thing?
[19:09] <yofel> you can't *skip* releases during upgrade anyway
[19:09] <ScottK> shadeslayer: KDE does security support for N-2.
[19:09] <yofel> and if you do you're as unsupported as upgrading from an unsupported release
[19:09] <micahg> ScottK: we're looking at 6.5-9 months for support, Rick would like it as minimal as possible, I think we have some wiggle room, but I think with a quality boost, we can make release upgrades fairly seamless so that we don't need the extra overlap
[19:09] <shadeslayer> ScottK: but no bug fix releases
[19:10] <shadeslayer> again, different values of support for me and you :P
[19:10] <ScottK> shadeslayer: Sure.
[19:10] <micahg> ScottK: it's just a second proposal that I'll right up, everything's on the drawing board right now, but I think this idea makes a decent compromise
[19:10] <micahg> s/right/write/
[19:10] <kubotu> micahg meant: "ScottK: it's just a second proposal that I'll write up, everything's on the drawing board right now, but I think this idea makes a decent compromise"
[19:11] <micahg> I feel much better after that session personally
[19:12] <ScottK> shadeslayer: I tihnk (for example - if 12.04 wasn't LTS) we should support 12.04 for some time after the final KDE point release is released for 12.10 so that people who want to upgrade .5 -> .5 can do it.
[19:13] <shadeslayer> okay, that makes sense
[19:13] <shadeslayer> though I think /most/ of our userbase jumps from .5 to .1
[19:13] <micahg> ScottK: why wouldn't they go from .5 -> .2 or something?
[19:14] <micahg> s/wouldn't/couldn't
[19:14] <ScottK> micahg: Wanting to wait for the most mature version.
[19:14] <ScottK> They could.
[19:14] <yofel> ScottK: wouldn't that be ~9 months?
[19:14] <ScottK> yofel: Depends.  We're just about to release .5 now.
[19:14] <micahg> ScottK: right, but if they need that much comfort, wouldn't an LTS be better suited?
[19:14] <yofel> as we're shifted compared to the kde schedule
[19:14] <ScottK> Yes.
[19:14] <yofel> worst case it would be .4
[19:15] <ScottK> micahg: Not if they want current KDE.
[19:15] <yofel> if that would hold true we shouldn't have removed 4.9.5 from the precise backports
[19:15] <yofel> and just make version-specific backport PPA's
[19:15] <micahg> ScottK: do you think that most of your users are like that, or do the ones who like the latest mostly upgrade shortly after the newer KDE is available in the next release?
[19:16] <ScottK> micahg: I think it's a bit of an edge case.
[19:16] <yofel> (support nightmare, but that's where that thought leads)
[19:16] <ScottK> But if it's LTS + some stuff for us then why not.
[19:16] <ScottK> ~none of the stuff that in the "stuff for us" catagory is supported by Canonical
[19:16] <ScottK> So they have to support the rest for the LTS anyway.
[19:17] <ScottK> I don't see why it matters what the exact window is.
[19:17] <micahg> ScottK: ok, so, maybe keep the PPAs for the edge cases, I'd like to avoid the need for doing major work outside the archive for releasing stuff
[19:18] <micahg> the window matters for security support which is of the things we need from Canonical
[19:18] <micahg> it's resources that can be used elsewhere
[19:18] <ScottK> If we're a derived distro, can't we just sync security changes from the LTS?
[19:19] <micahg> oh, if we're derived distro, we'd inherit, I'm trying to avoid the need for derived distros at all :)
[19:19] <ScottK> Since ~none of the derived distro specific changes are in Main, why should they care?
[19:19] <ScottK> Oh.  I don't see how that's possible.
[19:20] <micahg> we just discussed it in the Xubuntu contingency session, we'd keep the 6 month cadence, reduce the support window, ramp up quality to make release upgrades seamless
[19:20] <micahg> I'll be writing a longer version of that to ubuntu-devel
[19:21] <ScottK> So rolling would be dead?
[19:21] <micahg> that way we have the stable images with the latest flavor stack, we don't need to start worrying about extra archives and backporting, and we can all benefit from the quality improvements
[19:21] <yofel> ScottK: yeah
[19:22] <micahg> I'd like to think of it as absorbed :) most of the concepts from rolling would be integrated
[19:22] <ScottK> micahg: There are no concepts from rolling that aren't already planned for the development series.
[19:22] <ScottK> (except the silly monthly thing)
[19:22] <apachelogger> we repalced big rolling with sponge absorbing :D
[19:22] <apachelogger> s/big/pig/
[19:22] <kubotu> apachelogger meant: "we repalced pig rolling with sponge absorbing :D"
[19:23] <ScottK> It's it's same as now except 9 months of support instead of 18, then that's not a major change.
[19:23] <micahg> right :), less jarring for everyone
[19:24] <yofel> ScottK: one of the positive points of rolling was the lesser workload for the security team. So if maybe if we compromise here we could keep the 6 month releases
[19:24] <yofel> + maybe a policy to not put beta stuff in the archive
[19:24] <yofel> so ubuntu can still call devel rolling
[19:24] <apachelogger> ScottK: well it is what we essentially would have ended up with
[19:24] <apachelogger> regardless of rolling
[19:24] <apachelogger> so that is a very positive change
[19:24] <apachelogger> (also the less support part of it)
[19:25] <ScottK> Reminds me, I should check and see if 4.9.5 needs releasing.
[19:25] <apachelogger> so we always have 2.5 active targets WRT KDE SC (lts, stable and dev)
[19:25] <ScottK> It's actually LTS - 1, LTS, stable, and dev.
[19:25] <ScottK> at least part of the time.
[19:26] <ScottK> SInce we signed up for 5 year LTS.
[19:26] <yofel> 5 years is actually LTS-2, LTS-1, LTS, stable, dev
[19:26] <micahg> right, you'll even get an LTS-2 in there in about 2.5 years
[19:26] <yofel> I don't think we need LTS, stable-1, stable, dev here
[19:27] <yofel> right now we even have stable-2
[19:29] <apachelogger> could be argued to be -3 to provide transition period
[19:29] <micahg> right, it reduces the overall number of releases supported as well as making backports to LTS releases easier since you don't have to go through multiple intermediate series
[19:29] <apachelogger> at any rate it reduces targets
[19:30] <apachelogger> ScottK: also LTS-1 is no target for new releases IMO
[19:30] <ScottK> Yes, but it's supported.
[19:30] <shadeslayer> how true
[19:30] <apachelogger> I find it hard to imagine that KDE 4.10 would actually build on 10.04 without substantial library backport
[19:30] <ScottK> I also don't think we should backport current KDE past one release.
[19:31] <apachelogger> ScottK: perhaps rethinking LTS may be useful
[19:31] <apachelogger> in a KDE context
[19:31] <ScottK> Maybe.
[19:31] <apachelogger> as I mentioned the other day... right now we are really fouling ourselfs and the users with claiming that a kubuntu lts is actually supported for 2 years
[19:32] <apachelogger> as upstream does not support their releases that long and we do not really go to any lengths to establish large scale support from our side
[19:32] <shadeslayer> heh
[19:32] <yofel> well, at least for 12.04 we still kind of care (note, it's not even been 1 year of the 5)
[19:32] <apachelogger> so really unless they use a ppa backport they are running a somewhat unsupported KDE (excluding security and perhaps high impact bugs, of which there should none be left anyway)
[19:33] <yofel> IMO we *should* find some time to check what 4.8 patches debian has
[19:33] <micahg> high impact bugs can develop over time depending on what changes on the systems in general
[19:34] <ScottK> I think fixing security and high impact bugs is what support means.
[19:34] <apachelogger> micahg: in such a case I'd see the bug in whatever changed in the LTS ;)
[19:34] <apachelogger> ScottK: dunno it's not really explained
[19:34] <apachelogger> I think I also ranted about this some months ago
[19:35]  * shadeslayer checks what time FF occurs
[19:35]  * apachelogger shivers
[19:35] <apachelogger> yofel: so what about libexec?
[19:36] <yofel> let me, again, read channel backlog
[19:36] <apachelogger> we should introduce community awards
[19:36] <apachelogger> "best supporter"
[19:36] <apachelogger> "worst developer"
[19:37] <apachelogger> "best bug triager"
[19:37] <apachelogger> stuff like that
[19:37] <apachelogger> though I fear worst developer will always go to Quintasan
[19:37] <apachelogger> Quintasan: piiiiiing
[19:37] <apachelogger> sheytan: piiiiiiiiing
[19:37]  * yofel takes title of greatest master of desaster for maintaining the PPA's mostly
[19:37] <Quintasan> wait what
[19:37] <apachelogger> <3 yofel
[19:37] <shadeslayer> okay, 0430 for me, I should be able to make FF with KTP
[19:37] <apachelogger> Quintasan: where are you?
[19:38] <Quintasan> Now @ home
[19:38] <apachelogger> I needs more work force
[19:38] <Quintasan> Pfff.
[19:38]  * Quintasan sends shadeslayer apachelogger's way
[19:38] <yofel> apachelogger: what's wrong with the libexec dir again?
[19:38] <shadeslayer> eh whaaa
[19:38] <shadeslayer> yofel: not FHS
[19:38] <apachelogger> yofel: not FHS
[19:38] <apachelogger> yofel: where does upstraem install it?
[19:38] <apachelogger> /usr/bin?
[19:39] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: why do you need even more workspace?
[19:39] <yofel> and /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/ is FHS?
[19:39] <shadeslayer> erm
[19:39] <shadeslayer> work force
[19:39] <apachelogger> yofel: it's inside usr/lib/
[19:39] <apachelogger> so yes
[19:39]  * yofel needs source
[19:39]  * yofel got source
[19:39] <Quintasan> lol shadeslayer
[19:39] <apachelogger> the point of libexec is that it's a lib only accessible by whatever knows where it is
[19:39] <Quintasan> apachelogger always needs more workforce so he has to do less
[19:39] <apachelogger> such that I personally would put it ina  subdir of /usr/lib
[19:40] <apachelogger> I maen, it's still a shared library
[19:40] <apachelogger> well
[19:40] <apachelogger> component of it
[19:40] <apachelogger> although runtime binary
[19:40]  * apachelogger had too much wine it seems
[19:40] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: workspace?
[19:40] <apachelogger> lawl
[19:41] <sheytan> apachelogger: relax
[19:41] <yofel> hm...
[19:42] <apachelogger> if I wanted workspace I'd move to barcelona
[19:42] <yofel> CMakeModules/GNUInstallDirs.cmake:  set(CMAKE_INSTALL_LIBEXECDIR "libexec" CACHE PATH "program executables (libexec)")
[19:42] <yofel> so it seems that *is* the default
[19:42] <apachelogger> silly
[19:42] <apachelogger> still doesn't make it fhs
[19:43] <yofel>   0   * set -DCMAKE_INSTALL_LIBEXECDIR=libexec to work around cmake weirdness
[19:43] <yofel> what a great comment from me
[19:43] <apachelogger> :P
[19:44] <apachelogger> packages.ubuntu doesn't want me to search for libexec in paths
[19:44] <apachelogger> -.-
[19:45] <yofel> aaaah
[19:45] <apachelogger> I have loads of crap installed but nothing in /usr/libexec other than tomahawk
[19:45] <yofel>  37 [2011-12-26 23:33] <domme> yofel: uh, what did happen there? CMAKE_INSTALL_LIBEXECDIR is empty in your build.. that should never happen actually
[19:45] <yofel>   6 [2011-12-27 00:02] <yofel> domme: works when I move "ADD_SUBDIRECTORY( src/breakpad/CrashReporter )" *ABOVE* "ADD_SUBDIRECTORY( src )" in the main CMakeLists.txt
[19:45] <yofel>   5 [2011-12-27 00:02] <yofel> you're creating config.h before CMAKE_INSTALL_LIBEXECDIR gets defined
[19:46] <apachelogger> so it's their fault!@#!
[19:46] <yofel>   3 [2011-12-27 00:03] <domme> just set CMAKE_INSTALL_LIBEXECDIR to libexec explicitly
[19:46] <yofel> that's what happened
[19:46] <apachelogger> THERE CODE IS WRONG
[19:46] <apachelogger> *THEIR
[19:46] <shadeslayer> it's always an upstream issue
[19:46] <apachelogger> you need to explicitly include gnuinstalldirs
[19:46] <apachelogger> so clearly they do that after their config stuffz
[19:46] <apachelogger> or cmake was broken at the time
[19:46] <apachelogger> both possible
[19:47] <apachelogger> gnuinstalldirs' value is still crap though
[20:02] <ScottK> 4.9.5 released to quantal-updates.
[20:02] <ScottK> You can delete it from all PPAs now.
[20:05] <sheytan_> apachelogger: imagine a snake move. Now image like 15-20 dots moving under the kubuntu logo like a snake
[20:05] <sheytan_> what do you think?
[20:07] <apachelogger> Oo
[20:07] <shadeslayer> O_O
[20:07] <sheytan_> what? :D
[20:07] <apachelogger> you'll have to draw that somehow
[20:07] <apachelogger> can't imagine
[20:07] <sheytan_> wati ;)
[20:07] <sheytan_> wait
[20:07] <shadeslayer> apachelogger is fresh out of imagination
[20:08] <apachelogger> sold it on ebay
[20:09]  * apachelogger wants a movign wallpaper!
[20:09] <shadeslayer> I want a social wallpaper
[20:09] <apachelogger> go away
[20:09] <apachelogger> actually
[20:09] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: GO TO BED
[20:09] <shadeslayer> daw
[20:09]  * ScottK wants anti-social wallpaper.
[20:09] <shadeslayer> okay
[20:10] <apachelogger> a rolling wallpaper would be cool
[20:10] <ScottK> Oh dear.
[20:10] <apachelogger> rolling up and rolling down, rolling up and rolling down....
[20:10] <shadeslayer> a monthly snapshot of apachelogger
[20:10] <shadeslayer> s/snapshot/mugshot/
[20:10] <kubotu> shadeslayer meant: "a monthly mugshot of apachelogger"
[20:11] <apachelogger> nakkid pic?
[20:11] <shadeslayer> I wonder how far away we are from Wayland
[20:12] <ScottK> apachelogger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSHr4ubuD64
[20:12] <apachelogger> we can have it this year on tablet
[20:12] <ScottK> There's your rolling.
[20:12] <apachelogger> ScottK: :D
[20:12] <apachelogger> should be login sound from now on
[20:12] <apachelogger> oh
[20:12] <apachelogger> login sound
[20:12] <apachelogger> another pointless thing
[20:13] <ScottK> Except it should really be the Blues Brothers version.
[20:13] <apachelogger> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCRae5mRoRE
[20:13] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: can you run KDE with weston from the archives?
[20:13] <apachelogger> PPA anyway
[20:14] <apachelogger> alas we'd not use weston :P
[20:14] <shadeslayer> er, okay
[20:14] <apachelogger> also the problem is not so much making it run but getting rid of X
[20:14] <apachelogger> i.e. making kwin a wayland compositor is one thing
[20:14] <apachelogger> making workspace X free is another thing
[20:15] <apachelogger> sheytan_: still waiting btw :P
[20:15] <sheytan_> i know
[20:17] <yofel> workspace X free o.O
[20:17] <yofel> users are still using kde3 stuff, stop dreaming
[20:18] <sheytan_> apachelogger: http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/06/test1.png
[20:18] <sheytan_> ofcourse the dots will not be deformated
[20:18] <sheytan_> i just used a quick gimp plugin now
[20:19] <sheytan_> i think this is simple and cool
[20:19] <apachelogger> :O
[20:19] <yofel> wavy plymouth
[20:19] <apachelogger> Oo
[20:19] <apachelogger> :O
[20:19] <apachelogger> oO
[20:19] <apachelogger> :O
[20:20] <apachelogger> sheytan_: what do you mean by deformated?
[20:20] <sheytan_> dot's don't look like dots :P
[20:20] <sheytan_> but you should get the idea
[20:22] <apachelogger> this exceeds my algorithmic abilities :P
[20:22] <sheytan_> ;(
[20:22] <apachelogger> so how would that behave then?
[20:22] <apachelogger> the waves would move to the right?
[20:23] <sheytan_> yes
[20:23] <sheytan_> and 20 dots is too much i guess
[20:23] <sheytan_> i think lik 8-10 is enough
[20:23] <sheytan_> to don't make that 'snake' too long
[20:23] <apachelogger> ohm
[20:23] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/06/test1.png
[20:24] <apachelogger> algorithmic thoughts?
[20:24] <apachelogger> moving wave
[20:24] <apachelogger> sin(x)?
[20:24] <JontheEchidna> or cos(x) if you're a rebel
[20:24] <JontheEchidna> :P
[20:24] <apachelogger> :D
[20:24] <apachelogger> sheytan_: I am totally not sure that will look good
[20:24] <sheytan_> it will
[20:24] <sheytan_> i see it
[20:24] <apachelogger> can try
[20:25] <sheytan_> great :)
[20:25] <apachelogger> please be sending me dots
[20:25] <sheytan_> OK
[20:25] <JontheEchidna> y = cos(n), x++, n++, repeat
[20:25] <apachelogger> yeah
[20:26] <apachelogger> not sure how to get sane movement into it
[20:27] <apachelogger> AFAIK plymouth script has no real concept of frame accuracy
[20:27] <apachelogger> (one of the reasons I would very much like to have a qt&qml reimplementation)
[20:27] <apachelogger> with that you'd also be able to do somewhat fancy GL stuff
[20:28] <apachelogger> not that I am any good at shader programming though ^^
[20:28] <JontheEchidna> algorithm 4 u: http://i.imgur.com/Mz9UgWR.jpg
[20:28]  * ScottK thinks it looks like the Kubuntu logo has a moustache
[20:28] <apachelogger> LAWL
[20:28] <sheytan_> apachelogger: is one dot engough?
[20:28] <shadeslayer> JontheEchidna: stop redditing
[20:28] <JontheEchidna> <.<
[20:28] <apachelogger> sheytan_: yes
[20:29] <sheytan_> sent
[20:29] <apachelogger> ScottK: I think that's very hip these days
[20:30] <apachelogger> so I have this expensive set of plymouth testing scripts on my laptop
[20:30] <apachelogger> but I am too lazy to boot the laptop
[20:31] <apachelogger> quite the problem
[20:32] <ScottK> Sounds like you need a minion.
[20:32] <ScottK> Wasn't shadeslayer supposed to recruit his replacement?
[20:32] <ScottK> So ultimately, it's his fault.
[20:42]  * apachelogger looks at shadeslayer and goes :(
[20:43] <jessie> Damn it, my Phonon keeps dying. Is there a way I can restart it easily?
[20:47] <apachelogger> sheytan_: http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/06/plasma-desktopPs2230.png
[20:47] <apachelogger> jessie: phonon is a library....
[20:47] <apachelogger> libraries do not die
[20:47] <sheytan_> apachelogger: cool, but short it
[20:48] <apachelogger> well yeah
[20:48] <apachelogger> the dots look weird tho :P
[20:48] <sheytan_> can i see the animation?
[20:48] <apachelogger> a bit bluuuuuuuuury
[20:48] <apachelogger> there is no animation yet
[20:48] <jessie> apachelogger: Okay, I actually was just reading your blog post about phonon and VLC.
[20:48] <sheytan_> apachelogger: don't worry bout the dots
[20:48] <jessie> apachelogger: So why does all of my sound just... stop?
[20:48] <jessie> Anything that tries to make sound also freezes.
[20:49] <apachelogger> alsa/pulse
[20:49] <apachelogger> well
[20:49] <apachelogger> actually most likely some application is using stuff incorrectly and then locks out every other application from outputting any sound
[20:50] <apachelogger> which in turn may freeze the applicatin
[20:50] <jessie> It happens sometimes when Chrome uses Flash, i.e. YouTube.
[20:51] <jessie> In fact, that's probably 99.99% of the time that it happens.  It's frustrating as all get out. So what's the best way to have my system recover? I've tried killalling pulseaudio
[20:53] <apachelogger> sheytan_: http://people.ubuntu.com/~apachelogger/tmp/video.mkv
[20:53] <apachelogger> that's what you had in mind, right? :P
[20:53] <sheytan_> yes
[20:53] <sheytan_> but not that quick :D
[20:54] <apachelogger> here's the thing
[20:54] <apachelogger> I have no clue how to make it slow :P
[20:57] <apachelogger> it's not fluent :@\
[20:57] <apachelogger> sheytan_: same url
[20:58] <apachelogger> oh I think the fluency problem comes from me always allocating the same dot.width columns instead of also moving the columns along
[20:58] <sheytan_> not smooth
[20:58] <apachelogger> sheytan_: go write it yourself :P
[20:58] <sheytan_> you know i can't :P
[20:58] <apachelogger> I am no better at this shit
[20:58] <sheytan_> i understand it might be hard
[21:00] <apachelogger> bleh
[21:00] <ScottK> New quassel heaved in just before FF.
[21:00] <apachelogger> new quassel?
[21:00] <apachelogger> wtf
[21:01]  * yofel goes reading changelog
[21:02] <yofel> hm, upstream writes no changelog :(
[21:03] <yofel> hm, still no mysql support
[21:10] <apachelogger> mysql's crap
[21:10] <apachelogger> psql ftw
[21:10] <jessie> ^
[21:11] <yofel> the only thing worse than mysql is having both mysql and pgsql running
[21:18] <apachelogger> sheytan_: same url
[21:18] <apachelogger> I don't think animationwise it will get much better than this
[21:19] <sheytan_> apachelogger: ...
[21:19] <sheytan_> i wanted to move the dots
[21:19] <sheytan_> not wave all of them at same time :)
[21:19] <sheytan_> it suppose to 'go' from left to right
[21:20] <sheytan_> so the first from right disappears and last on left shows up
[21:20] <sheytan_> and next
[21:20] <apachelogger> what?
[21:20] <apachelogger> don't get it
[21:21] <sheytan_> imagine that 'snake' goes out through a door on the right side and comes back from left
[21:21] <sheytan_> and repeats taht
[21:21] <sheytan_> that
[21:23]  * apachelogger blinks
[21:23] <sheytan_> you got it? :D
[21:24] <sheytan_> the idea
[21:24] <apachelogger> no
[21:24] <apachelogger> xoooooooo
[21:24] <sheytan_> wiat
[21:24] <apachelogger> xxooooooo
[21:24] <apachelogger> xxxoooooo
[21:24] <apachelogger> xxxxooooo
[21:24] <apachelogger> xxxxxoooo
[21:24] <apachelogger> xxxxxxooo
[21:24] <apachelogger> xxxxxxxoo
[21:24] <apachelogger> xxxxxxxxo
[21:24] <apachelogger> oxxxxxxxx
[21:25] <apachelogger> xoxxxxxxx
[21:25] <apachelogger> xxoxxxxxx
[21:25]  * jussi smacks apachelogger... behave!
[21:25] <apachelogger> xxxoxxxxx
[21:25] <apachelogger> like so?
[21:25] <sheytan_> apachelogger: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Wave_group.gif
[21:25] <sheytan_> like this
[21:25] <apachelogger> jussi:  you can gladly tell me be a better way to illustrate that crap
[21:25] <sheytan_> but instead of lines we got dots
[21:26] <apachelogger> sheytan_: that does not really help
[21:26] <apachelogger> go draw some examples
[21:26] <sheytan_> i already did
[21:26] <jussi> thats one psychedelic picture...
[21:26] <sheytan_> with that animation
[21:26] <sheytan_> you should get the point :)
[21:26] <apachelogger> not really
[21:27] <apachelogger> I don't see how it relates to this
[21:27] <sheytan_> ok
[21:27] <apachelogger> do you want a only one dot visable at a time?
[21:27] <apachelogger> or do you want to have 3 dots visible or what?
[21:27] <sheytan_> look at that gif
[21:27] <sheytan_> and follow the red dot
[21:27] <apachelogger> yeah
[21:27] <sheytan_> what i want, is the same move of the red dot here
[21:27] <apachelogger> taht what I illustrated with x and o
[21:27] <sheytan_> but make more of that red dots next to each other
[21:27] <apachelogger> it does not in anyway clearify the behavior though
[21:28] <apachelogger> sheytan_: get some paper and a pen then draw frames as they would appear
[21:28] <apachelogger> hand waving explanations do not make it any clearly to me what the algo needs to look like
[21:36] <sheytan_> apachelogger: http://prrd.ab.ca/~dave.blemings/tech_conference_2008/FOV1-0001FFC9/FOV1-0002001E/FOV1-00020028/transverse%20wave.gif
[21:37] <sheytan_> apachelogger: or a simpler one http://www.gifandgif.eu/animated_gif/Dots/Animated%20Gif%20Dots%20(41).gif
[21:37] <sheytan_> the second one is kinda cool too
[21:39] <apachelogger> Oo
[21:45] <sheytan_> i don't really know how do i explain this better
[21:45] <sheytan_> apachelogger: try to make each dot appear next to other
[21:45] <sheytan_> with taht wave shape
[21:47] <apachelogger> same url
[21:47] <sheytan_> YES!
[21:47] <apachelogger> -.-
[21:47] <apachelogger> that would have taken you 2 drawings to explain
[21:48] <apachelogger> looks weird though
[21:48] <sheytan_> i did my best :P
[21:48] <apachelogger> ScottK: http://people.ubuntu.com/~apachelogger/tmp/video.mkv
[21:48] <sheytan_> now try not to make that empty space between
[21:48] <apachelogger> sheytan_: best would have been to simply draw it -.-
[21:48] <apachelogger> sheytan_: hm?
[21:48] <apachelogger> you have to have at least one dot that is not highlighted
[21:49] <apachelogger> otherwise it is static
[21:49] <sheytan_> ok
[21:49] <sheytan_> nvm ;D
[21:49] <sheytan_> now let that artwork be done
[21:49] <soee> halo
[21:50] <apachelogger> sheytan_: uhm?
[21:50] <sheytan_> apachelogger: what about remove now the 'kubuntu' text?
[21:51] <apachelogger> first get some feedback on that
[21:51] <sheytan_> i like it :D
[21:53] <apachelogger> everyone sleeping already Oo
[21:54]  * yofel will look in a bit
[21:54] <sheytan_> they miss cool stuff
[21:55]  * ScottK does not like.
[21:57] <soee> may i share my opinion ?
[21:57] <sheytan_> apachelogger: try background color d0d0d0 and gradient i sent you
[21:57] <apachelogger> you sent me a gradient?
[21:57] <yofel> o.O
[21:57] <yofel> soee: go ahead
[21:57] <sheytan_> i just did
[21:57] <yofel> apachelogger, sheytan_: looks weird IMO
[21:58] <yofel> maybe if the dots have a different brightness so it seems that they fade out
[21:58] <soee> we have 2 elemtns logo + name why do you want to put there 3 element with animation ? In my opinion do some animation on this 2 logo + text, i might not like windows but when windows is booting you have their logo animated and this is good idea, this should be simple with most important elements (logo + Kubuntu text)
[21:59] <apachelogger> http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/06/plasma-desktopBa2230.png
[21:59] <Sput> debfx: RelWithDebugInfo or RelWithDebInfo? the internet seems to claim it should be the latter, Quassel uses the former, but we screwed it up so I need to fix it either way
[21:59] <apachelogger> looks broken
[21:59]  * yofel liked the original black implementation
[21:59] <Sput> Qt, KDE and the CMake FAQ refer to the latter as well, so I guess I should go with that one.
[21:59] <apachelogger> except plymouth is now grey
[22:00] <yofel> this doesn't feel too different from what we have right now :/
[22:00] <sheytan_> apachelogger: f**k. sent again
[22:01] <apachelogger> http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/02/plasma-desktopJZ2250.png
[22:01] <apachelogger> yofel: we don't have to reinvent the wheel :P
[22:01] <debfx> Sput: yep, RelWithDebInfo is the right one
[22:01] <Sput> debfx: thx, I'll go fix it upstream then.
[22:02] <yofel> apachelogger: you already had it reinvented -.-
[22:03] <apachelogger> http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/06/plasma-desktopCs2230.png
[22:03] <apachelogger> yofel: tell that to sheytan_ who then had to do a different with lightdm+ksplash
[22:04] <yofel> ah well
[22:04] <apachelogger> *different style
[22:04] <yofel> soee has a point though
[22:04] <apachelogger> not that having a point helps with artwork
[22:05] <apachelogger> I mean, I have plenty of points in that screenshot
[22:05] <yofel> exactly, so drop those points
[22:05] <apachelogger> doesn't make it any better :P
[22:05] <sheytan_> you wanted a new plymouth theme, i was thinking about. I had some ideas, you don't like them. No problem, we can leave the current one
[22:05]  * yofel found the wave interesting, the dots not
[22:05] <apachelogger> sheytan_: that means rejecting lightdm+ksplash though
[22:06] <sheytan_> apachelogger: it doesn't. You just leave the animation. U can still change the background
[22:06] <apachelogger> yofel: it would be interesting as some complex artwork wave
[22:06] <yofel> hell, we could just have a *static* plymouth image
[22:06] <apachelogger> with multi-depth and shit
[22:06] <apachelogger> aka GLish
[22:06] <apachelogger> like such http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUb1gIKhwMU
[22:06] <yofel> as long as it's consistent in the end
[22:06] <apachelogger> sheytan_: it did look bad
[22:06] <apachelogger> that's why wanted to change the plymouth theme
[22:07] <apachelogger> the gear glowery did not work with grey or something
[22:07] <apachelogger> and black plymouth to greyish lightdm causes the urge to throw up, so that wouldn't work either
[22:07] <yofel> well, THAT is certainly not implemented in plymouth
[22:07] <sheytan_> apachelogger: can you make that glow stuff again with a dark blue solid bg?
[22:07] <apachelogger> yofel: course not
[22:07] <soee> simple, simple simple: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC-x_muJHrc, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32TcdcirXlM, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnweaNTtb1k, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m1OeK7ZJIs
[22:07] <apachelogger> but that is a way a simple wave works
[22:08] <apachelogger> alas you could not get rid of the dots and draw it as a line
[22:08] <apachelogger> taht'd look like a shit^10
[22:08] <apachelogger> soee: we are not making a phone
[22:09] <apachelogger> and technically speaking the windows7 booty is not simple
[22:09] <apachelogger> well, codewise it is
[22:10] <apachelogger> I mean you just do random sin/cos
[22:10] <apachelogger> artistically it works well because the windows logo has 4 parts that are the same (with different color)
[22:11] <soee> apachelogger, what i want to say is that boot screen in this examples has logo maybe some extra text but no more elements and in my opinion this is good concept, i am not talking about complex animations etc - just my opinions, consider or ignore :)
[22:11] <apachelogger> the idea is to not have text in the dot version
[22:11] <apachelogger> alas that does not change the fact that the dot version looks weird
[22:12] <apachelogger> sheytan_: what color value?
[22:12] <apachelogger> and what gear colors etc.?
[22:12] <soee> apachelogger, are there any technical limitation that whole boot screnn isnt more colored ?
[22:12] <apachelogger> sheytan_: actually you can play with it yourself ^^
[22:12] <apachelogger> http://paste.kde.org/689108/
[22:13] <apachelogger> if you comment out the stuff with // and add the  Window.SetBackgroundTopColor instead you can define a solid color
[22:13] <apachelogger> or gradient
[22:13] <apachelogger> as you want
[22:13] <apachelogger> soee: not in the best case
[22:14] <apachelogger> soee: there is a limitation with regards to background scaling, but that is about it
[22:14] <apachelogger> in a perfectly supported system we have 32bit of colors to work with
[22:16] <sheytan_> apachelogger: http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/06/test1_1.png
[22:16] <apachelogger> sheytan_: the stripe is animated?
[22:16] <sheytan_> yes
[22:16] <apachelogger> how?
[22:16] <apachelogger> moving?
[22:16] <sheytan_> it slides from left to right
[22:16] <sheytan_> like a ring
[22:16] <apachelogger> hmmmmmmm
[22:17] <sheytan_> and you see just a fron if that ring
[22:17] <sheytan_> front*
[22:17] <apachelogger> right
[22:17] <apachelogger> hm
[22:17] <apachelogger> mmmm
[22:17] <sheytan_> like this device that show's you how many energy you used at your home :D
[22:17] <sheytan_> know that one?
[22:18] <sheytan_> it has a spinning ring like that
[22:18] <apachelogger> yep
[22:18] <apachelogger> sheytan_: the fact that the line changes hight and alpha makes this rather complicated though
[22:18] <sheytan_> if you use this line as one piece of artwork and keep it moving
[22:18] <sheytan_> i think that solved the animation
[22:19] <sheytan_> solves*
[22:19] <apachelogger> sheytan_: keep it moving?
[22:19] <soee> sheytan_, how hard/complex is do draw each letter outline and after all are visible fill them with some color ?
[22:19] <sheytan_> that's your idea
[22:19] <apachelogger> plymouth is a 2d drawing space, we cannot actually map the line as texture onto a ring :)
[22:19] <sheytan_> nobody said it is hard
[22:20] <sheytan_> every time we have some limitation couse of plymouth
[22:20] <sheytan_> damn!
[22:20] <apachelogger> well
[22:20] <apachelogger> you have that limiation even in qml1 :P
[22:20] <apachelogger> and qml2 unless you write a shader
[22:20] <apachelogger> thing is
[22:20] <sheytan_> who ever made qml1 with that limitation
[22:20] <apachelogger> you have to simulat the 3dness
[22:20] <sheytan_> but why?
[22:21] <sheytan_> why make new language for UI's without 3d
[22:21] <apachelogger> so you'd have to chop the line at the end into 1pixel wide pieces
[22:21] <apachelogger> sheytan_: shaders solve that
[22:21] <apachelogger> if one speaks GL
[22:21] <apachelogger> ...
[22:21] <sheytan_> if one speaks ;)
[22:22] <apachelogger> and once we have pixel wide pieces we then can set animated transparency/opacity on each pixel-wide-piece
[22:22] <apachelogger> thus making it look like it's moving
[22:22] <apachelogger> I think anyway
[22:22] <apachelogger> <- not exactly a 3d guru
[22:23] <apachelogger> ScottK, yofel: http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/06/test1_1.png
[22:23] <apachelogger> soee: wanna make a concept artwork for you thing?
[22:23] <apachelogger> or does sheytan_ want to?
[22:23] <sheytan_> nope
[22:23]  * apachelogger is all depressed over not having complete and coherent artwork at feature freeze
[22:24] <soee> apachelogger, yes if i find some time i might prepare some concept
[22:26]  * apachelogger sighs
[22:27] <sheytan_> apachelogger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4388FjuLCA
[22:27] <sheytan_> fedora does this
[22:27] <sheytan_> that way
[22:28] <sheytan_> look ofc only at the bar under fedora logo
[22:28] <apachelogger> that's entirely written in c
[22:28] <ScottK> apachelogger: Not really.
[22:28] <apachelogger> I give up
[22:29] <yofel> apachelogger: I could live with that
[22:29] <yofel> as long as the logo doesn't rotate there...
[22:30] <sheytan_> the boot time doesn't even take more than 10 sec
[22:30] <sheytan_> and on some machines you won't even get the right animation
[22:30] <apachelogger> yofel: that sounds overly happy -.-
[22:30] <sheytan_> couse of broken drivers
[22:30] <sheytan_> so we're making it tooooooo important
[22:30] <yofel> apachelogger: it looks *good*
[22:30] <yofel> just that the last example I saw with mini logo had a rotating one
[22:30] <yofel> which was urgh
[22:31] <sheytan_> apachelogger: let's just don't use any animations
[22:31] <sheytan_> and leave only the logo
[22:31] <sheytan_> with a solid background
[22:31] <apachelogger> that's crap too
[22:31] <sheytan_> but it doesn't matter
[22:31] <apachelogger> you need feedback
[22:31] <apachelogger> feedback is necesary
[22:31]  * yofel wants usplash back -.-
[22:31] <apachelogger> yeah
[22:31] <apachelogger> usplash was so much better
[22:31] <sheytan_> eaither you get "crap" or you have to write good stuff in C
[22:31] <apachelogger> sheytan_: you have not made a proposal that requires C
[22:32] <sheytan_> i didn't know
[22:32] <sheytan_> it's still called plymouth ;)
[22:32] <apachelogger> also it's still 2d
[22:32] <sheytan_> anyway
[22:32] <apachelogger> so a proposal that requires C better be outlining 2d algorithms
[22:32] <apachelogger> otherwise that would be one month of work wasted over nothing
[22:33] <yofel> heck, what's *wrong*, with the last attempt?
[22:33] <sheytan_> i really think it's not that important
[22:33] <apachelogger> yofel: ScottK doesn't like it apparently
[22:33] <yofel> animate that line a bit and we would be fine
[22:33] <yofel> -.-
[22:34] <sheytan_> apachelogger: you can make each letter of 'kubuntu' appear separatly
[22:34]  * ScottK is not a fan of the wiggling.
[22:34] <ScottK> They could spin too.
[22:34] <sheytan_> and than put the logo above
[22:34] <yofel> btw. are we "Kubuntu" or "kubuntu" now?
[22:34] <yofel> that's like totally inconsistent
[22:34] <sheytan_> i don't know
[22:35] <yofel> our logo in kickoff says kubuntu
[22:36] <apachelogger> I dunno
[22:36] <sheytan_> apachelogger: so what's the final decision?
[22:36] <apachelogger> I should just fork and have nuno redo the entire thing
[22:36] <apachelogger> getting overly pissed here
[22:36] <sheytan_> me too
[22:36] <apachelogger> sheytan_: dunno
[22:36] <apachelogger> send a mail to devel
[22:36] <apachelogger> with all your mockups
[22:36] <apachelogger> someone can implement them
[22:37] <sheytan_> no body will
[22:37] <apachelogger> I have no interest in pursuing this any further
[22:37] <sheytan_> we know that
[22:37] <yofel> my head is spinning...
[22:37] <sheytan_> already
[22:37] <apachelogger> for all I care the entire boot experience can remain crappy
[22:37] <yofel> can you put *something* consistent in please?
[22:38] <sheytan_> it's really not worth, to don't care about what we did for ldm and splash, to not have any plymouth stuff
[22:38] <yofel> I already don't care what
[22:38] <sheytan_> just make a solid background with kubuntu logo
[22:38] <sheytan_> that's all
[22:38] <sheytan_> or add the previous dot's
[22:38] <sheytan_> dots
[22:38] <sheytan_> from the last release of kubuntu
[22:38] <sheytan_> what will work
[22:39] <sheytan_> nobody cares anyway about magic boot animations, couse they don't take hours to watch them like a movie
[22:39] <sheytan_> we're not windows with 'checking registry settings' taking a whole day to be done
[22:43]  * sheytan_ is going to sleep. bye.
[23:36] <soee> yofel:
[23:37] <soee> or shadeslayer ?
[23:37] <yofel> hm=
[23:37] <yofel> ?
[23:38] <soee> yofel: a quick and simple mockup: http://wstaw.org/h/33bd09b749a/
[23:38] <yofel> apachelogger: ^
[23:38] <apachelogger> whats with the gear?
[23:39] <soee> apachelogger: just some random efect
[23:39] <apachelogger> http://wstaw.org/m/2013/03/07/plasma-desktopzw2230.png
[23:41] <soee> ok im going to sleep now :) today is my birthday so long day before me, ill catch you later
[23:45]  * apachelogger sighs
[23:45] <apachelogger> you know
[23:45] <apachelogger> I hate the web
[23:45] <apachelogger> like I really hate it
[23:45] <apachelogger> like I hate just about all people who do anything on the web
[23:45] <apachelogger> because they are dumb and don't know that they are dumb and no one tells them that they are dumb and so they continue to be dumb
[23:46]  * keithzg may be dumb, but at least is fully cognizant of that fact!
[23:49] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: ping
[23:49] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: pong
[23:49] <apachelogger> will we get pay-for apps in MSC?
[23:49] <apachelogger> like ever?
[23:50] <apachelogger> or perhaps even 13.04? :)
[23:50] <JontheEchidna> lol not that soon
[23:50] <apachelogger> awww :(
[23:50] <apachelogger> what's the holdup
[23:50] <JontheEchidna> It's in the works for 2.1 tho
[23:50] <JontheEchidna> I only just started on supporting that like a week ago :s
[23:50] <apachelogger> ah, fair enough
[23:50] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: another thing... what would you say if I proposed removal of the muon package manager from the default install?
[23:51] <apachelogger> i.e. only ship MSC
[23:51] <JontheEchidna> well more like 2 weeks ago, but I've been working on getting 2.0 out the door...
[23:52] <JontheEchidna> I think having a fully-featured tool for manipulating packages is an important thing to have, personally
[23:53] <apachelogger> I'd be had pressed to argue with that in absence of an actual description of our target audience :P
[23:54] <apachelogger> however I do believe that people who wish to have such an interface are probably able to get it installed
[23:54] <JontheEchidna> I suppose
 Didn't want to intrude on actual #kubuntu-devel discussion, but apachelogger I'd like to chime in that at least one standard Kubuntu user (myself) appreciates having a fully-featured packaged manager GUI out of the box. Moreover, I have seen the lack thereof confuse folks.
 Admittedly this is basically one data point (ie. anecdotal evidence I've directly observed or have an opnion on).
[23:56] <apachelogger> keithzg: everyone is welcome to contribute an opinion
[23:57] <apachelogger> and I realise that this is a perfectly valid use cases and it is why I said that I'd be hard pressed to argue against since we have no clear statement from which we can deduce whether or not it is a use case we should/want to support
[23:58] <apachelogger> FWIW, the idae just came up because I had watched a video review that claimed it to be confusing to have 2 applications essentially doing the same
[23:59] <apachelogger> which is probably true and it also somewhat goes against our general purpose policy of not introducing applications that do the same thing