[00:00] <Odd-rationale> But i remember in the video, he said that hibernate/suspend goes under acpi...
[00:06] <pwnguin> all roads lead to matthew garrett
[00:07] <emma> pwnguin: What are your thoughts about this one -- https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/153665
[00:08] <pwnguin> i love the "bumps"
[00:08] <pwnguin> thank you ubuntu forums, i love stupid pings
[00:08] <emma> heh.
[00:09] <mrooney> howdy everyone, what an active channel today
[00:09] <emma> What package does that one belong with, or is that a 'do you still have this problem in a newer Ubuntu?'
[00:09] <emma> mrooney: it's the GBJ maybe that's why.
[00:09] <pwnguin> its probably gnome-panel or somethnig else
[00:09] <emma> I was thinking gnome pannel or metacity
[00:10] <pwnguin> not metacity
[00:10] <mrooney> I would imagine gnome-panel
[00:10] <mrooney> unless there is a more specific package for the applets, but not that I know of
[00:10] <pwnguin> or perhaps the app that closed it
[00:11] <Odd-rationale> maybe he just locked it to the panel.
[00:12] <emma> gnome-pannel is not a source package.
[00:12] <emma> oops typo
[00:13] <mrooney> emma: I would mark it against gnome-panel and Incomplete it, asking if it still occurs and in which distribution and version of gnome-panel (apt-cache policy gnome-panel)
[00:14] <hggdh> I would say gnome-panel indeed
[00:15] <emma> Thanks!
[00:16] <emma> Can you guys tell me what is it about it that tells you 'gnome-panel' ?
[00:16] <Odd-rationale> the notification tray is part of gnome-panel i beleive...
[00:17] <Odd-rationale> Is it ok to simply suggest to the reported to file upstream? or do I actually have to go do it?
[00:18] <Odd-rationale> s/reported/reporter
[00:18] <mrooney> Odd-rationale: no, a reporter rarely even would know what you mean by that :)
[00:18] <Odd-rationale> mrooney: so i have to actually do it?
[00:18] <mrooney> emma: right, it is a gnome-panel applet
[00:19] <emma> Okay great. Thanks very much. I think helping with bugs might help me learn more deeply about Ubuntu.
[00:19] <mrooney> emma: you definitely will, and learn about all sorts of applications and commands you never knew existed!
[00:19] <mrooney> Odd-rationale: you don't HAVE to, you can leave it for another triager, and can suggest in the comments that it should be
[00:19] <emma> That's fantastic. :)
[00:20] <Odd-rationale> ok. thanks
[00:20] <Odd-rationale> i would hate to create an account in like 5 different bug trackers..
[00:20] <mrooney> Odd-rationale: but it isn't, IMO, reporters responsibility to file upstream, they are using Ubuntu, and that's part of our "job"
[00:20] <mrooney> Odd-rationale: which bug is this, specifically?
[00:21] <mrooney> pretty much all of gnome uses the same one so it isn't really that bad.
[00:21] <Odd-rationale> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/230652
[00:21] <Odd-rationale> it is kde
[00:21] <Odd-rationale> kde4 for that matter
[00:21] <pwnguin> mrooney: what should i do when upstream basically ignores launchpad?
[00:21] <pwnguin> (we can take this to PM if you don't want to spam the channel)
[00:22] <mrooney> pwnguin: hmm, what do you mean by ignores? it isn't really an upstream projects job to worry about Ubuntu, usually
[00:23] <Odd-rationale> i think he has the wrong settings...
[00:23] <Odd-rationale> and there are quite a lot of settings for a single app in kde...
[00:23] <mrooney> pwnguin: so you mean a bug reported upstream that the project doesn't care about fixing? in that case we can patch it on our package and give it to them, though that is less than optimal
[00:24] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: it's OK to suggest, but then somebody else has to do the work, so it would be great if you'd actually do it
[00:24] <emma> What if we find a bug report where it appears that someone has solved the problem in one of the comments?
[00:24] <Odd-rationale> :(
[00:24] <pwnguin> mrooney: say someone reports a wacom bug in ubuntu, and I'm pretty sure it's upstream's fault, but I can't reproduce it
[00:24] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: it's part of the process of triaging...
[00:25] <Odd-rationale> ok. Thanks!
[00:25] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: and of course, provide the appropriate cross linking
[00:25] <mrooney> Odd-rationale: but if you don't want to get into that yet, you can just not triage those bugs to begin with. I started by just subscribing to bug reports to learn what other people did with them
[00:25] <emma> mrooney: now there's a good idea.
[00:25] <mrooney> emma: well, it depends if it was actually a bug or not. did someone come up with a workaround for it?
[00:26] <pwnguin> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=525124&aid=2030106&group_id=69596
[00:26] <pwnguin> actually, wrong bug
[00:26] <emma> mrooney: I'm also thinking, after this GBJ is over maybe I will just concentrate on a couple of packages I know more about or have an interest in.
[00:26] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: however, I think that bug could be helped with a screenshot and maybe some settings that he has set...
[00:26] <pwnguin> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=525124&aid=1987565&group_id=69596
[00:27] <emma> mrooney: I think it looks like it was not a bug but more of a need to know how to configure x-org. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/152214
[00:27] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: and of course mark it against the right package (kdebase)
[00:27] <Odd-rationale> yuriy: i would look through the settings if i had kate. But i don't use kde, much less kde4...
[00:27] <mrooney> emma: yeah, I would recommend when you find incoming bugs (say from the RSS or #ubuntu-bugs-announce) that seem interesting to you, just subscribe to them, I do that with 2-3 every day, and you will get the emails of what happens and see it triaged and ideally eventually fixed
[00:29] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: also, often you don't have to file anything upstream, just search
[00:29] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: in this case, searching for "kate word wrap" at bugs.kde.org turns up dozens of reports
[00:29] <Odd-rationale> yuriy: oh, i didn;t think of that...
[00:30] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: and don't forget to search launchpad for duplicates as well when you work on bugs. same idea.
[00:30] <emma> yuriy: what is that about? If you find a duplicate bug what are you supposed to do with the two bugs?
[00:31] <Odd-rationale> report one as duplicate
[00:31] <greg-g> you mark one as a duplicate of the other.  making the one with more information the master
[00:31] <mrooney> emma: you mark the new one as a duplicate of the other, and leave in a comment in the duplicate bug thanking them for the report, saying it has already been filed, and asking them to read the duplicate for possible workarounds, and add any new information
[00:31] <yuriy> emma: pick the one that's a better report (clearer, more information) then mark the other one as a duplicate of it (there is a link for that)
[00:31] <Odd-rationale> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/MarkingDuplicate
[00:31] <yuriy> and leave an appropriate comment
[00:31] <emma> okay great.
[00:31] <greg-g> heh, and have 4 people provide duplicate answers to the question ;)
[00:31] <mrooney> :)
[00:32] <mrooney> emma: also, with that report you linked, it depends on if the conf file is actually "misconfigured"
[00:32] <Odd-rationale> The master one is the one you type the number of? or ther other way around?
[00:32] <pwnguin> greg-g: hey, more eyes is better
[00:32] <greg-g> pwnguin: yep
[00:32] <mrooney> Odd-rationale: the first, you type in the master bug #
[00:32] <emma> mrooney: yes, perhaps I should ask if the person's problem has been resolved and mark it as incomplete?
[00:33] <mrooney> emma: sure, you want to find out if it previously worked, say in a previous version of Ubuntu, which would make it a regression and a bug
[00:33] <mrooney> if it has never worked out of the box, that would be a 'wishlist' importance bug, I would say
[00:34] <mrooney> emma: a crucial thing though, when marking things as incomplete (or making any change, I would say) is to subscribe to the bug so when the person provides more information you can change the status appropriately, otherwise it could stay in incomplete!
[00:35] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: report fix'd
[00:36] <Odd-rationale> to that kate bug?
[00:36] <Odd-rationale> yuriy: ^
[00:37] <yuriy> Odd-rationale: yeah, it was already fixed, but I did all the stuff anyway (add upstream link since I'd already found it anyway, set right package, set status to fixed, set importance to wishlist, thank the reporter)
[00:37] <Odd-rationale> k thanks a lot!
[00:37] <yuriy> s/wishlist/low
[00:37] <emma> mrooney: Okay, I was under the impression that if something is marked as incomplete then it eventually is deleted ?
[00:38] <mrooney> emma: well, it is "expired", after 60 days of no response
[00:38] <emma> Is that for all bug reports or just ones marked incomplete?
[00:38] <mrooney> which makes sense, if you need more information and the reporter hasn't gotten back to you in two months, those aren't useful bugs for developers/triagers to look at, there is nothing to be done with them
[00:38] <mrooney> just Incomplete!
[00:39] <nellery> emma, you should look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
[00:42] <emma> Invalid:
[00:42] <emma> * This status should be used when the bug report does not contain adequate information to determine whether or not it is a bug even if it is resolved for the reporter
[00:42] <emma> Doesn't this constitute a criterion by which we could mark almost all of these as invalid and be done with it? :)
[00:43] <mrooney> yes that wording does seem sub-optimal
[00:43] <mrooney> Invalid is used when the behavior is not actually a bug, essentially
[00:44] <emma> I know I was being ironic. :)
[00:44] <mrooney> yes, it would save us some time :)
[00:44] <mrooney> I'll just make a script to mark all incoming bugs as Invalid and we can go do other things :)
[00:45] <pwnguin> like complain about how ubuntu sucks and crashes on us, and totally lost that term paper
[00:46] <mrooney> haha yeah, everyone definitely will come across a really angry, obnoxious report every once and awhile
[00:47] <pwnguin> heh, the only one i came across was an upstream developer
[00:47] <mrooney> I really want to keep a "best of" bug list, but I worry about offending the reporters :)
[00:47] <pwnguin> how dare we ship xournal when there's a point release avalable days after freeze
[00:48] <mrooney> haha you should look at the X-Fi bug
[00:48] <pwnguin> i think i'll pass
[00:48] <mrooney> an untested alpha driver came out 2 days before Hardy final and someone was pretty upset we weren't shipping it
[00:49] <daradib> I think this bug should have wishlist status: https://bugs.launchpad.net/wesnoth/+bug/256345
[00:49] <_stink_> i'm getting a bunch of errors from the command line 5-a-day app when trying to add a bug... any advice? http://paste.ubuntu.com/36028/
[00:51] <pwnguin> im always amused when volunteers are short on time
[00:51] <Odd-rationale> _stink_: did you upload your ssh keys ro launchpad?
[00:51] <daradib> pwnguin: i don't get it
[00:51] <Odd-rationale> s/ro/to
[00:52] <pwnguin> daradib: the global bug jam is on; you're short on time but participating anyways?
[00:52] <_stink_> Odd-rationale: i did - they're shown at https://launchpad.net/~adamjlincoln
[00:52] <daradib> pwnguin: i am working regardless of jam
[00:53] <pwnguin> daradib: ok then
[00:53] <daradib> there is no jams close to me
[00:53] <daradib> are*
[00:54] <emma> This person seems to have fixed their own problem -- https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/154809
[00:55] <Odd-rationale> _stink_: you have 2 keys uploaded?
[00:56] <_stink_> Odd-rationale: i had one for a while that worked fine as far as I could tell. earlier today when i ran into this problem, i added the second hoping it would help.  it didn't - i get the same error
[00:56] <_stink_> they were generated on two different machines
[00:56] <_stink_> each of which i now get the same error on
[00:57] <Odd-rationale> well thr first line says "Permission denied (publickey)."
[00:57] <Odd-rationale> so i think it has somthing to do with that...
[00:57] <greg-g> it is ok having more than one key, I do and 5-a-day works
[00:57] <Odd-rationale> maybe try over again>
[00:57] <Odd-rationale> ?
[00:57] <greg-g> he has ;)
[00:58] <_stink_> i know, which is strange. i assumed the line after that about concurrent connections was the error assocatied with the failed connection
[00:58] <Odd-rationale> yeah i know more than one key is ok
[00:58] <_stink_> but if no one else is getting this, then there must not be a limit problem
[00:59] <mrooney> emma: so in that case, if they fixed it themselves and it was their own fault, a misconfigured file or something, then you can just thank them for the report and mark it Invalid, but in this case it seems like it is potentially a legitimate bug
[00:59] <_stink_> maybe I'll just file a bug on it :)
[00:59] <Odd-rationale> _stink_: maybe you have more than one running
[00:59] <mrooney> it is sort of disturbing that all that work took place out of launchpad
[00:59] <_stink_> Odd-rationale: more than one... one what?
[01:00] <Odd-rationale> or more than one bzr connections running...
[01:00] <_stink_> i don't have the applet going, just using the command line
[01:00] <emma> mrooney: how so?
[01:01] <mrooney> emma: well there is a lot of information in that forum thread, you could try to figure out the relevant stuff and leave it in a comment
[01:01] <mrooney> emma: I think you are picking hard bugs :)
[01:03] <emma> I'm trying to find good ones.
[01:03] <mrooney> if you are new to triaging you probably don't want to look at old bugs since every one else passed them up already, if they were easy they are already triaged probably
[01:03] <emma> True.
[01:03] <emma> I'm looking at the list of ones without a package and trying to put them with the package.
[01:03] <mrooney> I would recommend looking at incoming bug reports and subscribing to ones you want to know more about
[01:03] <mrooney> yeah, that is a worthy effort
[01:03] <emma> Okay.
[01:04] <emma> Yes I'm going to do that, but I'm trying to do stuff for the GBJ today and tomorrow.
[01:04] <mrooney> still you may want to focus your efforts on newer ones and not the ones no one else knew where to assign either :)
[01:05] <greg-g> heh
[01:05] <mrooney> although certainly finding old ones and asking is a great way to learn, and get attention to old bugs that maybe fell through the cracks
[01:05] <mrooney> emma: so, I guess you can't go wrong, in conclusion :)
[01:05] <daradib> Could someone please mark Bug 256345 as wishlist status (or low)?
[01:06] <emma> :)
[01:06] <greg-g> heh, is that a "this game is hard" bug?
[01:06] <emma> You have a good style mrooney :)
[01:06] <pwnguin> greg-g: no, its a "this game should work" bug
[01:06] <pwnguin> what it really needs is a low and a forward to upstream
[01:07] <greg-g> yeah, looks like it
[01:07] <greg-g> I'll set it to low, you wanna take care of forwarding?
[01:07] <pwnguin> not really =/
[01:07] <greg-g> :) me neither
[01:07] <pwnguin> if it means i might meet esr, i'll pass
[01:08] <Odd-rationale> the wesnoth server is not working very well right now anyways...
[01:08] <greg-g> what? esr is a dev for wesnoth?
[01:08] <Odd-rationale> his name appears in the credits...
[01:09] <greg-g> ah
[01:09] <pwnguin> yes, he is
[01:09] <pwnguin> check ohloh on wesnoth
[01:11] <mrooney> emma: thanks :) by the way, if you are focusing on bugs without a package, bdmurray has a great stock response for that
[01:11] <mrooney> if I can find it...
[01:15] <emma> What package is involved with system > shutdown ?
[01:15] <mrooney> emma: anyway it is something like "Thanks for your bug report. This bug was filed without a package specified, which is important for getting it looked at by the right people. I have marked this as a bug against PACKAGENAME. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage for more information."
[01:16] <hggdh> a colleciton of stock responses is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
[01:16] <hggdh> s/colleciton/collection/
[01:16] <mrooney> hggdh: ooh, I wasn't so far off :)
[01:16] <mrooney> emma: good question about that package
[01:17] <hggdh> you were good, mrooney... I just thought the collection could help
[01:17] <mrooney> hggdh: no I appreciate it, that's what I was hoping someone would provide
[01:18] <_stink_> Odd-rationale: filed bug with bzr. thanks for taking a look :)
[01:19] <mrooney> emma: one trick is to search for bugs in ubuntu that would probably be in it, and look at the package, like "gnome logout" or "gnome shutdown" or something
[01:20] <danmulvey> exit
[01:20] <danmulvey> oops
[01:22] <pedro_> emma: gnome-session
[01:24] <emma> mrooney: that's a good idea.
[01:27] <emma> Does every package in Ubuntu have a bug supervisor ?
[01:27] <pwnguin> no, sadly
[01:27] <pwnguin> well, maybe supervisor means something extra special
[01:29] <pwnguin> but if every package had someone paying special attention to it, we could just take the whole unassigned queue, assign it to a random package and let them figure it out ;)
[01:29] <crimsun> except that's what happens
[01:30] <crimsun> the Ubuntu package and ~ubuntu-bugcontrol
[01:30] <pwnguin> well
[01:30] <pwnguin> i didnt mean one specific random package
[01:30] <pwnguin> maybe you didnt either?
[01:31] <emma> Who looks at it then, the motu who packaged the package in the first place?
[01:31] <crimsun> emma: sometimes
[01:32] <crimsun> otherwise you have to assume~motu does
[01:32] <emma> do the motus have developer skills or do they just need packagers skills?
[01:32] <jarosser06> i think bug #256491 should be set to wishlist
[01:32] <crimsun> emma: many of both
[01:32] <mrooney> pwnguin: you theoretically could do that, but all that would happen is they would mark it invalid against their package
[01:32] <pwnguin> heh
[01:32] <emma> crimsun: some of them just have packaging skills ?
[01:32] <hggdh> emma, yes
[01:32] <pwnguin> mrooney: but some fraction of them would be right!
[01:32] <crimsun> emma: sure, but "just" is misleading.
[01:33] <mrooney> pwnguin: haha yeah, just keep cycling around the invalid ones until there aren't any left :)
[01:33] <hggdh> :-)
[01:39] <effie_jayx> jarosser06, I think not
[01:39] <effie_jayx> jarosser06,  there are two references to computer in nautilus
[01:39] <mrooney> emma: by the way another excellent resource is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Checklist
[01:39] <emma> Okay let me read that.
[01:40] <effie_jayx> one is a big buton nexto the the navigation arrows ... anything that would enable it to be more "accesible" would include neon lights with google maps directions on how to find it ;)
[01:45] <jarosser06> alright i wasnt sure how to label it im new sorry
[01:47] <daradib> greg-g: thanks
[01:49] <effie_jayx> jarosser06,  it's cool :D
[01:49] <effie_jayx> jarosser06,  good call on refering to brainstorm :D
[01:50] <jarosser06> Thanks i got it off the Triage tutorial lol, so just curious what would you mark something like that as b/c i totally agree with you the computer button is right there
[01:51] <emma> I seem many people start their bug report with: binary package hint: <packagename> why do they do that and where did they learn to do that? Is there some rubric some place that advises people how to file a report?
[01:52] <snap-l> emma: That's part of the "Report a Problem" link in GNOME
[01:52] <snap-l> It's under 'Help > Report a Problem'
[01:52] <emma> Ahh.
[01:57] <effie_jayx> jarosser06, mark it invalid, if the reported strongly feels he is right... let him reopen it
[01:57] <jarosser06> alright thanks
[01:57] <effie_jayx> but once well argumented it is rarely chanllenged
[02:01] <jarosser06> so do you have any advice for someone just beginning with bugs
[02:04] <effie_jayx> jarosser06,  keep it coming :D
[02:05] <effie_jayx> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cfv/+bug/256500
[02:06] <effie_jayx> is it resonable to change the package to suggest transmission then?
[02:06] <hggdh> jarosser06, read http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
[02:06] <hggdh> its a good start
[02:06] <hggdh> and feel free to ask questions
[02:07] <jarosser06> i read that and How to triage
[02:08] <hggdh> so... keep it simple. Start looking at bugs, and grab one you feel confortable with (or less unconfortable with ;-)
[02:08] <hggdh> and then try to apply what you read
[02:08] <hggdh> if in doubt, ask. We do not bite, most of the time
[02:09] <jarosser06> lol thanks
[02:09] <hggdh> you are welcome, jarosser06. Thank you for helping
[02:09] <jarosser06> i think this is a wishlist item bug # 256476
[02:09] <hggdh> bug 256476
[02:09] <mrooney> jarosser06: did you look at the bug checklist page I sent emma a few minutes earlier? that has some great tips
[02:10] <mrooney> yeah that looks like Triaged/Wishlist at first glance
[02:10] <hggdh> I will set it so
[02:11] <jarosser06> yeah i started looking at it a little i kinda wish i had a printer so i dont have to keep switching screens
[02:12] <hggdh> jarosser06, good catch, thank you
[02:12] <jarosser06> yall are very helpful
[02:12] <hggdh> jarosser06, this is a community effort. Community efforts only work if all work together and help each other
[02:13] <hggdh> jarosser06, just a question: have you registered in launchpad?
[02:13] <jarosser06> yeah its great i have used Ubuntu for about 2 years and i dont think i have ever had a question or problem that i have not been helped with
[02:14] <jarosser06> i try to do the same through the mailing list and thought i might try my hand at bugs now
[02:14] <jarosser06> yes
[02:14] <hggdh> good, then you can add your comments in
[02:14] <hggdh> and we need all help we can get -- lots of bug reports, and not enough bug triagers
[02:15] <hggdh> huh
[02:16] <hggdh> a question, jarosser06: when you said ' yall' you meant 'all yall', or just ' yall' ?  ;-)
[02:16] <jarosser06> all of you
[02:16] <hggdh> ah, all yall
[02:16] <jarosser06> yeah
[02:16] <jarosser06> ill clarify next time
[02:16] <jarosser06> lol
[02:16] <hggdh> pure old texan ;-)
[02:17] <jarosser06> yeah im actually in Huntsville right now going to Sam Houston
[02:18] <jarosser06> i think bug #256478 and bug #256477 are wishlist candidates as well
[02:19] <hggdh> and I am in DFW
[02:20] <jarosser06> what does that stand for
[02:21] <jarosser06> Dallas Fort Worth ?
[02:21] <hggdh> yes
[02:21] <jarosser06> gotcha
[02:21] <jarosser06> ive never been to Dallas
[02:21] <hggdh> another way of saying dallas metroplex
[02:21] <jarosser06> Oh
[02:21] <hggdh> bug 256478 taken care of.
[02:22] <hggdh> bug 256477 will need a bit more of work
[02:22] <hggdh> there is no upstream pointing to it, so we need to find if it has been reported upstream to link
[02:23] <jarosser06> how do you do that
[02:24] <yoda_van> bug #30910 should be set to Wishlist
[02:26] <hggdh> empathy is a gnome application, so it should be described in gnome.org; also, it's native BTS (Bug Tracking System) is http://bugzilla.gnome.org
[02:26] <lifeless> is patricio gonzalez here?
[02:31] <hggdh> yoda_van, why?
[02:32] <hggdh> jarosser06, so you can go to the gnome BTS and search in for a matching bug
[02:33] <yoda_van> it been addressed for awhile now, in brainstorm - just haven't taken action on making the db searchable/readable
[02:33] <hggdh> (this is all part of bug triaging)
[02:33] <yoda_van> its actually broken by design, if you read through the comments
[02:34] <hggdh> I did, and I agree. Still, ogra put it out of in progress to new
[02:34] <hggdh> he could have put it as wishlist
[02:35] <jarosser06> ok so i should look in the gnome db after looking through launchpads if it is related to gnome
[02:35] <hggdh> so I think we should ask him about that
[02:35] <yoda_van> k
[02:36] <yoda_van> let me check and see if ogra is on email list
[02:36] <hggdh> jarosser06, if we could find an upstream bug, or the project plan for it, it would help. It does not really help just to set it wishlist, if upstream (the actual developers) do not get to know about it
[02:37] <jarosser06> ok that makes since
[02:37] <hggdh> (the other two bugs you pointed out had nice upstream bugs already linked
[02:37] <yoda_van> hggdh, ogra is on email list so they will see the request - ty
[02:38] <hggdh> welcome, yoda_van. Thank you for helping
[02:38] <yoda_van> np
[02:38] <yoda_van> this is a blast - albeit tedious
[02:42] <jarosser06> what if you dont see a bug listed in gnomes database
[02:43] <hggdh> it is hard work... usually any hard work is tedious ;-)
[02:43] <jarosser06> yeah
[02:43] <jarosser06> and a little confusing at first
[02:43] <jarosser06> but still pretty fun
[02:43] <hggdh> jarosser06, in this case we would have to check for the empathy project plan
[02:44] <hggdh> the reporter stated it is in line for next**2 or next**3 gnome version
[02:44] <jarosser06> so does that mean the empathy project is already working on it
[02:44] <hggdh> that is what the reporter stated. We need to confirm it
[02:45] <jarosser06> and we need to look in the upstream project plan not the one in launchpad correct
[02:46] <jarosser06> I dont even see empathy under gnomes project listing
[02:47] <jarosser06> nm i found it
[02:48] <hggdh> http://live.gnome.org/Empathy
[02:48] <jarosser06> alright so i see the feature listed for future developement
[02:48] <jarosser06> now do i mark it as confirmed on launchpad
[02:49] <hggdh> yes, you can. Add the link to the roadmap also
[02:49] <jarosser06> when i add the link is there a special way to do that or do i just add it in a comment
[02:50] <jcastro> do they use gnome bugzilla?
[02:50] <jcastro> ah yes
[02:51] <hggdh> :-)
[02:51] <hggdh> jarosser06, since it is the roadmap, just as a comment. You edit the description to add it there also
[02:52] <hggdh> these 3 bugs, in fact, will have no immediate use... but they were opened, so we need to deal with them
[02:53] <jcastro> jarosser06: with empathy being proposed for the desktop if would be awesome if you could help be the link between launchpad and the upstream bug tracker
[02:53] <effie_jayx> bug #255019 should be marked as wishlist
[02:53] <hggdh> jcastro, good idea
[02:54] <jarosser06> yeah this is actually cooler than seeing my architectural drawings being built
[02:54] <jarosser06> lol
[02:54] <jarosser06> alright i added a comment and updated the description
[02:55] <jarosser06> so how did i do
[02:55] <jarosser06> lol
[02:55] <jcastro> jarosser06: ah, don't people to post on brainstorm for that!
[02:55] <mrooney> hey, can anyone confirm or deny that visiting yodlee.com with javascript enabled crashes firefox?
[02:55] <jarosser06> huh
[02:56] <jarosser06> it opened fine for me
[02:56] <jcastro> jarosser06: you told one guy to post his bug on brainstorm, they'll just tell him to post it on launchpad.
[02:56] <jcastro> hggdh: wow, nearly every bug is linked to upstream.
[02:56] <hggdh> jarosser06, very good. I set it to triaged now
[02:57] <jarosser06> sweet
[02:57] <jcastro> this makes me a happy camper
[02:57] <hggdh> jcastro, which bugs?
[02:57] <jcastro> empathy bugs
[02:57] <hggdh> thanks to jarosser06, actually
[02:57] <jcastro> all 6 of them. :)
[02:57] <hggdh> LOL
[02:57] <jarosser06> i only delt with like one lol
[02:57] <jcastro> if we can keep that up it would be really fantastic
[02:58] <hggdh> jarosser06, I do not use firefox
[02:58] <hggdh> jcastro, I agree
[02:59] <jcastro> I'll blog about this, since I suspect more bugs will be incoming
[02:59] <jcastro> this is inspirational.
[02:59] <hggdh> thanks, jcastro. As you very well know, all help is appreciated.
[03:00] <hggdh> jarosser06, you picked 3 of them up
[03:00] <mrooney> can anyone else try yodlee.com, I disabled all extensions and still get a segfault
[03:00] <jarosser06> oh yeah but i only did the upstream stuff for one
[03:00] <hggdh> OK, I changed two of them, but because you raised the issue
[03:01] <jcastro> jarosser06: determining if something is upstream by bringing it up still counts!
[03:01] <hggdh> absolutely correct
[03:03] <mrooney> jarosser06: do you have flash installed?
[03:03] <jarosser06> would bug #256507 be considered a wishlist bug as well
[03:03] <jarosser06> yes i do
[03:03] <jarosser06> mrooney, yes i do along with java should i disable them
[03:03] <jarosser06> and try a gain
[03:03] <jarosser06> again*
[03:03] <mrooney> nope, I just wanted to make sure you had everything enabled that I did
[03:03] <mrooney> thanks for testing
[03:03] <hggdh> jarosser06, no, this is a workflow bug. Bugsquad does not deal with workflow bugs.
[03:04] <anakron> Happy Global Bug Jam
[03:04] <anakron> Hi all
[03:04] <anakron> hi rooney
[03:04] <jarosser06> ok i am on a 64 bit Ubuntu if that makes a difference
[03:04] <jarosser06> ok
[03:06] <hggdh> jarosser06, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage#Special%20types%20of%20bugs
[03:25] <anakron>  Hi all
[03:31] <jarosser06> i found a bug about firefox not saving bookmarks and i found a duplicate but the duplicate states some other problems as well so is it still a duplicate
[03:32] <jarosser06> ?
[03:33] <hggdh> hi anakron
[03:33] <anakron> :O
[03:33] <anakron> Hi hggdh...
[03:33] <hggdh> jarosser06, it is one issue per bug
[03:34] <hggdh> so a bug with more than one issue has to be split
[03:34] <hggdh> by the reporter
[03:34] <jarosser06> oh well it seemed that the issue was resolved in fact the only mention of other problems was in the heading itself
[03:35] <hggdh> so it is not really a duplicate?
[03:35] <jarosser06> i think it is they both have the same problem, the firefox bookmarks are not saved after firefox is shutdown
[03:36] <jarosser06> its bug#256512 and the duplicate is bug #224985
[03:37] <hggdh> bug 256512
[03:40] <hggdh> jarosser06, although it sounds the same, the descriptions of the error are different
[03:41] <jarosser06_> sorry i got booted
[03:41] <hggdh> ah. they do not seems to be the same issue
[03:42] <jarosser06_> ok
[03:42] <hggdh> for bug 256512 you might ask the reporter to run firefox from a terminal, then save the output and attach to the bug
[03:45] <jarosser06_> alright so mark it as incomplete
[03:45] <hggdh> yes
[03:47] <jarosser06_> done thanks
[03:52] <anakron> Hi all
[03:53] <anakron> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/purple-plugin-pack/+bug/256419  >> Must be in Wishlist!
[03:53] <anakron> Thanks you
[03:54] <Awsoonn> GBJ is rocking!
[03:54] <Awsoonn> 1880 bugs left w/o a package? not bad!
[03:55] <anakron> Hi Awsoonn
[03:55] <anakron> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/256513 >> Must be in Wishlist
[03:55] <anakron> how i can show you packages that must be in wishlist?
[03:55] <anakron> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/256513 >> Must be in Wishlist
[03:55] <anakron> its a good way?
[03:55] <emma> Yes these stats are pretty cool --- http://daniel.holba.ch/5-a-day-stats/
[03:55] <emma> Especially the Team and Tags
[03:59] <Hobbsee> oh dear.  i've almost fallen off the top contributors ever.
[04:02] <Hobbsee> anakron: yes, you can.  but you could find something actually useful to do.
[04:02] <anakron> ok
[04:03] <anakron> so, its a package that enabled pidgin to work with facebook and...lots of people will be happy with this integration
[04:03] <Hobbsee> i'm sure they would.
[04:03] <emma> anakron: But I think people are grateful for what you do here.
[04:03] <Hobbsee> however, one of the primary aims of the bugsquad is to find actual bugs, and to get them to a useful enough state that people can actually fix them.
[04:04] <anakron> ok
[04:04] <anakron> yeah i know
[04:04] <anakron> and im working with real bugs there, in LP
[04:04] <Hobbsee> and while it's helpful from a splitting bugs perspective, it's a much better use of your time to fulfil the primary aim.
[04:04] <anakron> but there are some bugs that are called wishlist
[04:05] <anakron> i only report it here and then, people that can do it, could choose if its necessary or not
[04:05] <Hobbsee> there are.
[04:06] <Hobbsee> okay..
[04:06] <anakron> :-) sorry
[04:06] <hggdh> anakron, actually bug 256419 sounds more like a workflow bug
[04:07] <anakron> ok
[04:07] <anakron> thanks
[04:07] <hggdh> bugsquad does not deal with workflow bugs. Please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage#Special%20types%20of%20bugs
[04:07] <anakron> thanks all
[04:08] <Hobbsee> hggdh: that could do with being filed in debian.
[04:08] <Hobbsee> or linked, if there's a debian one open
[04:09] <hggdh> Hobbsee, yes, but... you know the story... I tend to stay clear of potential workflow bugs
[04:09] <Hobbsee> hggdh: fair enough, but there's no one touching on it, so you coudl deal with that one.
[04:09] <Hobbsee> there's no commitment for someone to actually work on the bug.
[04:10] <Hobbsee> oh, debian BTS has changed.  interesting.
[04:10] <hggdh> but same place?
[04:10] <hggdh> yes.
[04:10] <Hobbsee> sorry?
[04:11]  * Hobbsee adds the debian bug
[04:11] <hggdh> I was still trying to open the link to debian bugs
[04:11] <hggdh> oh, you did it already
[04:11] <Hobbsee> yeah, sorry :)
[04:11] <hggdh> :-)
[04:11] <hggdh> no prob, Hobbsee
[04:13] <hggdh> anyway, the comment in the bug was not warranted
[04:13] <Hobbsee> yeah, i know.
[04:13] <Hobbsee> this is one fo the problems with the bugsquad - they don't seem to use their brains, or just arne't taught what is useful or not, and rely too much on predefined responses.
[04:14] <hggdh> well, in this case, actually, no reading of wiki
[04:14] <hggdh> Hobbsee, what is a "brain"? ;-)
[04:14] <Hobbsee> hahahaha
[04:15] <hggdh> the empty space behind my eyes, methinks
[04:15] <Hobbsee> ahhh
[04:51] <emma> What is the definition of a workflow bug?
[04:59] <Hobbsee> emma: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage#Special%20types%20of%20bugs
[05:00] <emma> Thank you Hobbsee
[05:02] <Hobbsee> you're welcome.
[05:13] <emgent> moin LaserJock :)
[05:13] <techno_freak> morning all
[05:13] <emgent> LaserJock: i have a bad news for you
[05:13] <LaserJock> hi emgent
[05:13] <LaserJock> emgent: oh?
[05:13] <emgent> new bind is already vulnerable to cache poissoning
[05:14] <LaserJock> wonderful :/
[05:14] <emgent> http://tservice.net.ru/~s0mbre/blog/devel/networking/dns/2008_08_08.html
[05:21] <jarosser06_> does anyone have amsn on their system
[05:29] <nellery> jarosser06_, are you having a problem logging in?
[05:29] <jarosser06_> yeah i installed it to test a bug i found
[05:30] <jarosser06_> and it would not let me on pretty much as it was reported
[05:30] <jarosser06_> and i noticed that if i run it through the terminal it doesnt give me any sort of messages
[05:31] <jarosser06_> so i was wondering if anyone else has had this problem and if anyone knows how to get an error message out of it
[05:31] <jarosser06_> do you have it on your computer hellery
[05:32] <nellery> jarosser06_, no, sorry
[05:32] <jarosser06_> nellery*
[05:32] <jarosser06_> oh would you know how to get an error message out of it
[05:32] <nellery> are you referring to Bug 137048
[05:32] <jarosser06_> no its bug 256516
[05:33] <nellery> ah
[05:33] <nellery> them I'm clueless :)
[05:34] <jarosser06_> they do seem very similar the only difference is the version
[05:34] <jarosser06_> thanks for the try
[05:35] <jarosser06_> im pretty new at this stuff
[05:46] <jarosser06_> could bug #256522 be closed as it doesnt actually appear to be a bug
[05:47] <nellery> jarosser06_, that should be converted into a question
[05:47] <Hobbsee> jarosser06_: i'd turn that into a question
[05:47] <Hobbsee> bah.
[05:47] <nellery> hehe
[05:47] <nellery> jarosser06_, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/ConvertToQuestion
[05:48] <nellery> I just created that yesterday :D
[05:48] <jarosser06_> thanks
[05:49] <Hobbsee> neat!
[05:49] <nellery> jarosser06_, if you find that it is troublesome to follow, then that was my intention :)
[05:49] <jarosser06_> lol
[05:50] <nellery> hehe, just kidding
[05:50] <jarosser06_> i got it, took me a minute to find the button though lol
[05:50] <nellery> could the screenshot be improved?
[05:51] <jarosser06_> um you might make it just a little bigger or something i just kinda glanced at it and wasnt sure at first what it was
[05:51] <jarosser06_> actually i think its fine im just running on half a brain lol
[05:52] <nellery> I was trying to keep it small to keep the table smaller
[05:52] <nellery> but I think I will expand it a bit
[05:53] <nellery> make it a little more obvious
[05:53] <jarosser06_> yeah for people like me lol that cant catch the obvious
[06:00] <jarosser06_> i think bug 256520 should be marked wishlist
[06:01] <nellery> jarosser06_, that's really an upstream thing
[06:02] <nellery> you should report this upstream here: http://bugs.winehq.org/
[06:02] <nellery> then set a bug watch using the instructions from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Watches
[06:03] <jarosser06_> alright thanks
[06:03] <nellery> I'll mark the Ubuntu one as wishlist for you
[06:04] <jarosser06_> ok thanks, i need to put the link of the upstream bug reported right?
[06:07] <teKnofreak> Hobbsee, can you look bug 243828 and tell me whether I really need to go for SRU or not. persia asked me to nominate and follow it up yesterday night, but the latest comments from upstream leaves me confused :)
[06:31] <jarosser06_> i think bug #256331 needs to be labeled wish list
[06:33] <tuxmaniac> hello nellery . I wanted to know whether you are working on bug 251281 or I can have a shot at that? I see your comment on that bug. hence thought better to ask.
[06:33] <anakron> Hi all
[06:33] <jarosser06_> howdy
[06:33] <nellery> tuxmaniac, nope, I was just confirming it
[06:33] <nellery> your free to take it
[06:33] <tuxmaniac> nellery: thanks.
[07:11] <anakron> Hi all
[07:11] <Odd-rationale> hi!
[07:16] <tuxmaniac> warp10: hi
[07:16] <warp10> heya tuxmaniac!
[07:45] <cactaur> Hey everyone. If you're triaging a bug and you can confirm it, and if there's something the original reporter didn't mention that you might think should be helpful, should you put that in your comment, or get the original poster to describe it?
[07:45] <Hobbsee> go ahead and add it yourself
[07:45] <cactaur> All right. Thanks.
[07:57] <cactaur> Oh, and another thing I was wondering. How exactly do you triage a wishlist?
[08:13] <cactaur> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xchat/+bug/200780/+editstatus <---- Does this seem like a wishlist entry?
[08:14] <nellery> cactaur, yea it does
[08:14] <nellery> you should forward it upstream
[08:19] <Odd-rationale> what package do bugs that have to do with updating from one version to another? like updating to 8.04 removes hosts in /etc/hosts? update-manager?
[08:21] <Hobbsee> not usually
[08:21] <Hobbsee> it usually belongs to whatever package has done teh change.
[08:23] <Odd-rationale> Hobbsee: so which packages owns /etc/hosts ?
[08:27] <Odd-rationale> anyone else know?
[08:31] <Hobbsee> dpkg -S /etc/hosts?
[08:31] <Odd-rationale> i'm not currently on a debian system...
[08:37] <emma> Odd-rationale: I'm not sure becuase I missed the context here but becareful about bugs that have to do with updates or versions because it may be a workflow bug, which we don't touch.
[08:38] <Odd-rationale> k
[08:38] <emma> workflow bugs are bugs being used by the developers to fasciliate their communication. I have a link, hold on..
[08:38] <emma> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage#Special%20types%20of%20bugs
[08:38] <emma> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage#Special%20types%20of%20bugs
[08:39] <Odd-rationale> no, this is not one of them...
[08:40] <emma> oh okay
[08:40] <Odd-rationale> emma: do you know what is the output of "dpkg -S /etc/hosts"?
[08:40] <Odd-rationale> i;m not on a debian system atm...
[08:40] <Hobbsee> bah.
[08:41] <Odd-rationale> sorry, i'm just curious...
[08:41] <Hobbsee> dpkg: /etc/hosts not found.
[08:41] <Odd-rationale> oh...
[08:41] <cactaur> Yeah, got that too.
[08:41] <Hobbsee> therefore, it's not in any package, but autocreated somewhere.
[08:41] <Hobbsee> what does packages.ubuntu.com say?  same thing?
[08:42] <Odd-rationale> well, i'm on Arch Linux. and if i query for /etc/hosts, it tells me it is owned by the package "filesystem" which i don't find in ubuntu, but it might give us a hint...
[08:43] <emma> dpkg: /etc/hosts not found.
[08:43] <Odd-rationale> libboost-filesystem1.34.1?
[08:43] <Hobbsee> !search libboost
[08:44] <Hobbsee> ubottu: fail.
[08:44] <Hobbsee> !search libboost-dev
[08:45] <Hobbsee> !info libboost-dev
[08:45] <Hobbsee> Odd-rationale: i *doubt* it's from there
[08:45] <Odd-rationale> yeah, probably not the equivilent of filesystem for arch..
[08:46] <Hobbsee> Odd-rationale: that sounds like a good question to ask in #ubuntu-devel on a weekday.
[08:47] <Hobbsee> (i doubt anyone's there now)
[08:47] <Odd-rationale> Hobbsee: ok.
[08:48] <Odd-rationale> the description of the filsystem package in arch is "Description    : Base filesystem" Is there any package in Ubuntu that installs the base filesystem?
[08:48] <Odd-rationale> Another hint, is that filesystem is the first package to be installed... What is the first package ubuntu installs?
[08:49] <Odd-rationale> could you find out in an apt log or something?
[08:49] <anakron> Hi all
[08:49] <Odd-rationale> hi!
[08:49] <anakron> HI again
[08:50] <Hobbsee> Odd-rationale: pass.  and i'd guess debootstrap, but i doubt that's the answer of what it should be.
[08:50] <Hobbsee> maybe it's squashfs.  or something before that.  i don't remember :(
[08:50] <Odd-rationale> k, thanks for the help!
[08:51] <Hobbsee> that's definetly a question for u-d
[08:51] <anakron> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nasm/+bug/202095 >> Must be in Wishlist
[08:52] <Hobbsee> that's arleady in debian.
[08:52]  * Hobbsee pokes rmadison
[08:52] <anakron> so, must be like a sync?
[08:52] <Hobbsee> anakron: that's already in intrepid.  you can finish that bug off.
[08:52] <anakron> ok
[08:52] <Hobbsee> packages.ubuntu.com would have told you that.
[08:52] <anakron> i cant see it
[08:53] <anakron> Every time when i tried it i cant access to the page
[08:53] <Hobbsee> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=nasm&searchon=names&suite=intrepid&section=all ?
[08:53] <anakron> ok thanks
[08:54] <anakron> now i can
[08:54] <anakron> thanks
[08:54] <Hobbsee> otherwise, there's a tool called rmadison
[08:54] <Hobbsee> i think it's in ubuntu-dev-tools.
[08:54] <Hobbsee> you can use that to look up versions in debian and ubuntu.
[08:54] <Hobbsee> (which is quicker)
[08:55] <Hobbsee> anakron: this is the sort of useful triage to do.  While you could just get it marked as wishlist, it's much more useful to check if the version is anywhere else, and get it to a final state.
[08:57] <manishtech> anyone using 8.10 Alpha 3?
[08:57] <anakron> me
[08:58] <Hobbsee> unlikely - they've done updates since then.
[08:58] <manishtech> anakron: Did you experience any problems while shutting down
[08:58] <anakron> no
[08:58] <anakron> which problem have you
[08:58] <manishtech> anakron: When I click on restart, it logs me out and shows the login screen, from there i have to select restart
[08:58] <Hobbsee> manishtech: known bug.
[08:59] <anakron> :O
[08:59] <Hobbsee> it's supposed to get fixed soonish
[08:59] <anakron> yeah!
[08:59] <anakron> i got it
[08:59] <manishtech> Hobbsee: Soon? You mean in next testing release?
[08:59] <manishtech> anakron: You experienced it?
[08:59] <Hobbsee> i think the plan was for after that.
[08:59] <anakron> yes
[08:59] <anakron> all times
[08:59] <Hobbsee> manishtech: everyone's getting that.
[09:00] <manishtech> Hobbsee: Thanks.. I thought only I was experiencing it? Does anyone know the bug #
[09:00] <anakron> someone knows something about netbooks?
[09:00] <anakron> of intel
[09:01] <anakron> forget it
[09:01] <Hobbsee> manishtech: search for it?  i think it's part of gdm, from memory?
[09:01] <manishtech> Hobbsee: Checking
[09:01] <Hobbsee> it certainly does exist.
[09:02] <Hobbsee> manishtech: in fact, it's listed in the release notes, according to google.  http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/intrepid/alpha3
[09:02] <manishtech> Hobbsee: Is it this https://bugs.launchpad.net/gdm/+bug/126797
[09:03] <Hobbsee> don't thikn so
[09:03] <Hobbsee> no
[09:03] <Hobbsee> bug 250506
[09:04] <manishtech> ubottu: Yeah its 250506...
[09:05] <manishtech> ubottu: I am experiencing 250506 exactly and not 126797 though the latter is also confusing to be the same
[09:05] <Hobbsee> !bot
[11:48] <effie_jayx> good morning /afternoon / evening
[11:49] <qense> hello
[12:07] <Hew> anyone know how gvfsd-trash starts? Trying to triage/valgrind for bug #252174
[12:13] <Hew> if I kill it, it respawns. Does someone know what that sounds like? I've checked /etc/init.d as well as sessions, and can't find a mention of gvfs
[12:25] <RAOF> Hew: It's probably started by gvfs itself.   That's pretty new, so I don't know exactly how it determines stuff.
[12:26] <RAOF> Hew: You could always move the real gvfsd-trash executable to gvfsd-trash.real and create a gvfsd-trash script which calls the real executable under valgrind or something.  That'd be worst-case fallback, I think.
[12:26] <Hew> RAOF: Any idea where gvfs is started? I need to find the line that starts gvfsd-trash so that I can change it into a valgrind command
[12:26] <Hew> hmm ok
[12:27] <RAOF> Hew: It's possible that it's started via dbus, but it's also possible that it's started automatically as soon as some gnome/gtk/glib app starts.
[12:27] <RAOF> gvfs is low level stuff; it's going to be started somewhere core.
[12:29] <Hew> init is the parent process, but I can't find it in init.d, and being a novice on this stuff that's where I got stuck
[12:29] <RAOF> init is the parent process of everything :)
[12:29] <Hew> RAOF: I'll give the script idea a try, I should be able to handle that :-)
[12:29] <RAOF> Aha.
[12:29] <RAOF> dpkg --listfiles gvfs
[12:30] <RAOF> Or, dpkg --listfiles gvfs-backends.
[12:30] <Hew> ah good idea. I know it's in gvfs-backends, so I'll have a look at those files
[12:30] <Hew> yep
[12:30] <RAOF> Survey says: /usr/share/gvfs/mounts/trash.mount
[12:31] <RAOF> dpkg is frikkn awesome.
[12:31] <Hew> indeed :-)
[14:09] <techno_freak> persia, am still confused with bug 243828 that I haven't yet nominated for SRU. Can you check the new comments?
[14:12] <persia> techno_freak: I'd suggest avoiding the debate about 1.2.0 vs. 1.2.5.  That said, if the application doesn't start, or doesn't work, or is otherwise nonfunctional, that is a valid reason for SRU.
[14:12] <persia> (or at least *I* think it is, and remember that once being part of SRU policy, but I'm not on any SRU review teams, so may be mistaken)
[14:12] <techno_freak> persia, ok
[14:23] <effie_jayx> can someone reproduce bug #256611
[14:27] <tuxmaniac> Can someone please review bug 255224 and sponsor if found OK. Thanks in Advance
[14:48] <hggdh> morning to all
[14:48] <techno_freak> morning hggdh
[14:49] <jibel> effie_jayx: this is a duplicate of bug #147146 and #256614.
[14:50] <effie_jayx> jibel,  is it?
[14:50] <persia> I don't think those are duplicate, although it may depend on the specific artist generating the additional glyphs.
[14:51] <effie_jayx> jibel, there is no reference to á
[14:51] <jibel> but it's reference to missing glyphs.
[14:52] <jibel> You won't fill a report for every missing glypth, do you ?
[14:52] <jibel> From the changelog : "
[14:52] <jibel> Ubuntu-title currently provides the following Unicode coverage:
[14:52] <jibel> Basic Latin: 93/128 (72.66%)
[14:52] <effie_jayx> jibel, but the bug's name is " Swedish letters åäö (and som more) are absent "
[14:52] <jibel> Latin-1 Supplement: 2/128 (1.56%)
[14:53] <effie_jayx> how is a spanish contributor going to find a spanish related issue with the package in a font that is intended for a sweedish issue
[14:53] <effie_jayx> ?
[14:55] <effie_jayx> jibel,  I understand your point. but how does the definition of that bug relate to the bug I reported
[14:56] <effie_jayx> the title does not relate to the issue and the description.
[14:57] <effie_jayx> jibel,  I think it's the point of the exercise.
[14:58] <jibel> swedish report is about missing glyphs in the font, spanish report is about a character with wrong rendering because the glyph is missing. This is the same issue.
[14:58] <effie_jayx> jibel,  they are related yes
[14:58] <effie_jayx> it is the same issue
[14:58] <effie_jayx> no
[14:59] <effie_jayx> as I am not trying to write in sweedish
[15:00] <effie_jayx> my keyboard settings are different from the oher reporters and all
[15:00] <effie_jayx> I can't reproduce that bug.
[15:00] <jibel> From a user point of view there are 2 different issues, but from the developper point of view it's the same.
[15:01] <jibel> When you watch the font with e.g. gucharmap, you'll see the missing glyphs.
[15:01] <effie_jayx> right
[15:02] <persia> No, even from a developer point of view, they are different: they are different glyphs.
[15:02] <effie_jayx> jibel,  well I reported a bug, with hopes some day I can write titles to my slides in spanish with the ubuntu-title font
[15:02] <persia> Mind you, having a master "Glyphs are missing" bug listing all the missing glyphs might address the developer point of view.
[15:03] <persia> effie_jayx: Can you generate the right glyph for review?
[15:03] <effie_jayx> persia,  I have not worked with fonts, but I could give it a shot
[15:04] <persia> effie_jayx: If you could, and perhaps add various diacriticals to other letters that you know are missing, I'm sure that the appropriate party would be pleased at the expansion.
[15:05] <effie_jayx> persia,  I am on it then
[15:05] <hggdh> and then mark those bugs as duplicates
[15:05] <hggdh> of the new master
[15:05] <persia> effie_jayx: Cool.
[15:05] <persia> hggdh: A new master?  Why not retitle/redescribe the oldest one, and dup to it?
[15:05] <jibel> and add the tag "metabug" ?
[15:06] <persia> saves bug numbers for future use (and saves us typing as many digits in conversation)
[15:06] <hggdh> thats good.
[15:06] <persia> Personally, I'd like to see more redescription going on: sometimes we do a good job of triage, but the title and description still aren't clear, so the bug doesn't get the attention it deserves.
[15:07] <hggdh> I fully agree
[15:08] <hggdh> and, when updating a bug description, please try to follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Description
[15:09] <hggdh> all -- a good wiki page to bookmark is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/KnowledgeBase
[15:11] <hggdh> jibel, yes, then tag it metabug. You can see all the current tags at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags
[16:09] <markvandenborre> I've just had bug #34523 rejected as invalid
[16:10] <markvandenborre> with the mention "please use brainstorm.ubuntu.com"
[16:11] <markvandenborre> is that documented policy, or just someone trying to score launchpad karma?
[16:12] <markvandenborre> hm, that might sound a bit negative... whatever the reason, the intention is probably good
[16:14] <markvandenborre> but is this ubuntu bug policy?
[16:15] <alex-weej> markvandenborre: if it's that vague, then it should probably be on brainstorm
[16:15] <alex-weej> if you're willing to thrash out a technical solution
[16:15] <yoda_van> is 'invalid' the part that is bothering you?
[16:15] <alex-weej> try blueprints.launchpad.net/
[16:15] <yoda_van> i believe that is just the easiest way to say, not a bug, but something you'd like to see added to the app
[16:16] <yoda_van> it doesn't mean the thought is invalid
[16:16] <markvandenborre> yoda_van: I had it set to wishlist myself...
[16:16] <yoda_van> ahnh
[16:16] <markvandenborre> (before this came about, before brainstorm even existed)
[16:18] <techno_freak> markvandenborre, may be because we dont have a way to convert a bug (which is invalid as a bug) to a wishlist, we comment so and mark it as invalid bug :)
[16:18] <techno_freak> err.. sorry s/wishlist/brainstorm idea/
[16:21] <markvandenborre> so, right now, if I hadn't been very active and come around here, this idea would just be lost
[16:21] <markvandenborre> now I appreciated the fact that there has at least been some kind of feedback after 2 1/2 years
[16:23] <markvandenborre> but the way this was tackled, to a newcomer would sound a lot like "not interested, don't annoy us with this kind of stuff"
[16:24] <yoda_van> markvandenborre, all of the above is sort of true, that's why this weekend is global bug jam, and everyday people are trying to address bugs as they come in
[16:24] <yoda_van> it is an all volunteer army - all are welcome
[16:26] <yoda_van> the reality is, to a newcomer and an old-timer; no, we are *very* interested, and trying our best to get all the bugs triaged and sent to the right place
[16:26] <markvandenborre> ok, so something went wrong here
[16:26] <markvandenborre> if I hadn't been an 10+ year free software veteran
[16:26] <markvandenborre> I would feel like "whatever, I'm not putting my time in things that get neglected"
[16:27] <yoda_van> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
[16:27] <hggdh> markvandenborre, the triager could have been a bit more courteous indeed
[16:28] <markvandenborre> hggdh: which is exactly what I'm saying: at least in the way of bringing the message, there should have been more information
[16:29] <techno_freak> markvandenborre, i agree that the triager could have given an explanation why it is marked as invalid :)
[16:29] <markvandenborre> maybe it should have been marked needsinfo or something
[16:29] <markvandenborre> because it would need a formal specification
[16:29] <hggdh> I agree. Courtesy should be always maintained.
[16:30] <markvandenborre> but the contents of the bug is a different thing of course
[16:30] <markvandenborre> than the way the message is brought
[16:31] <markvandenborre> or the other way would have been for this person to have moved the bug to brainstorm
[16:31] <hggdh> markvandenborre, please bear with us. There are many new triagers, and some, huh, mistakes, should be expected
[16:31] <markvandenborre> yes, no problem
[16:31] <markvandenborre> I'm not screaming out loud "you guys did a lousy job"
[16:31] <markvandenborre> quite to the contrary
[16:31] <hggdh> unfortunately there is no way of automatically converting to a brainstorm
[16:32] <markvandenborre> then it should have happened manually, or whatever
[16:32] <hggdh> and this is your idea. I would not feel comfortable opening a brainstorm for you
[16:32] <hggdh> (and getting the credits)
[16:33] <markvandenborre> policies have changed from having wishlist bugs accepted in launchpad to wanting them in brainstorm
[16:33] <markvandenborre> that's allright
[16:34] <markvandenborre> but the reason I'm here was 1) to find out about new policies I was unaware of 2)to point you guys at a communication problem that might be solved by better documentation/process in the bug squad
[16:34] <hggdh> wishlists are still accepted, but yours is a bit more than that. Wishlist will depend on developers having the time to implement, whereas brainstorms can be "voted"
[16:35] <hggdh> markvandenborre, a triager is always expected to be courteous, and this is well documented. All that is needed is the willingless to read it
[16:35] <hggdh> and, of course, follow it
[16:36] <markvandenborre> the point is that a bug like the one I filed two years ago would rightly be considered invalid if filed now
[16:36] <markvandenborre> because there is brainstorm
[16:36] <hggdh> markvandenborre, you can re-open it, if you wish, and state the reasons for doing so
[16:37] <markvandenborre> so what I think is not clearly documented is what needs to happen to old wishlist bugs that actually belong in brainstorm right now
[16:37] <markvandenborre> hggdh: I'm thinking of doing the following:
[16:38] <markvandenborre> reopen, ask the triager to give more information why he closes bugs in the future, file it on brainstorm, close it
[16:38] <markvandenborre> does that sound right?
[16:40] <hggdh> markvandenborre, it works. You do not even need to re-open it. May I also suggest you send an email to ... (hold on)
[16:42] <markvandenborre> hggdh: ubuntu-devel?
[16:42] <hggdh> Ubuntu Bug Control<EMAIL_ADDRESS>stating what happened, and what you think about it? This will give a chance for all of us in bug-control to discuss the issue
[16:42] <markvandenborre> ok
[16:43] <hggdh> and, of course, you can send an email to ubuntu-devel-discuss (not ubuntu-devel). u-d-d would be a correct place to present the idea (which, BTW, I personaly like)
[16:44] <hggdh> markvandenborre, finally, on behalf of all, I apologise
[16:44] <markvandenborre> hey, no need to
[16:44] <markvandenborre> you guys are doing great work
[16:44] <hggdh> thank you. Huh, would you be willing to help triage bugs ;-)
[16:44] <markvandenborre> as I said before, I appreciate that, really
[16:44] <markvandenborre> I'm just concerned about newcomers and their reaction to this
[16:45] <hggdh> so am I
[16:45] <techno_freak> :)
[16:45] <hggdh> and this is another reason I elected to discuss it here, so that everybody could see it
[16:46] <techno_freak> and know where we usually do mistakes, and ahem.. correct them :)
[16:46] <markvandenborre> hggdh: sorry, I have 1 1/2 full time job, and I keep my ubuntu involvement limited to going to trying to coordinate a Locoteam, and going to a few Ubuntu Developer Summits
[16:46] <markvandenborre> heheh
[16:46] <hggdh> heh
[16:47] <hggdh> so am I, so am I... and I also have to throttle down my involvement (as I said elsewhere, I have family, dogs, and professional life to worry about, in this order)
[16:48] <markvandenborre> kthxbye
[16:48] <hggdh> techno_freak, we learn from our mistakes, that is true
[16:48] <hggdh> bye. Thank you
[16:49] <techno_freak> :)
[16:49] <techno_freak> we also learn by looking at other's mistakes and being careful not to commit them ;)
[16:49] <hggdh> yes... :-)
[16:51] <hggdh> but this is actually important: we should respect the reporters, and maintain a courteous exchange always. This is a requirement for bug-control, but I just checked, and do not see it clearly stated for triagers. I wIll raise the issue.
[16:51] <techno_freak> yes, agreed
[16:51] <hggdh> ogasawara, ping
[16:54] <hggdh> techno_freak, for example, persia just corrected me when I wrongly suggested opening a new master bug. It was obviously the incorrect choice, and I still erred...
[16:54] <techno_freak> I have been corrected a lot of times, thanks to those corrections I have been improving :)
[16:57] <techno_freak> sometimes it also happens to be a communication error where the triager misses few pleasantries that the reply looks a bit arrogant :)
[16:58] <yoda_van> yeah, it seems that curt replies come off as nasty - even though probably not intended to be
[16:59] <hggdh> yes
[17:00] <hggdh> the problema is not what you actually meant, but how it is perceived
[17:19] <effie_jayx> anyone here can help with a package... I have modified ttf-ubuntu-title and I am hiaving problems building the package
[17:20] <effie_jayx> buidling fails due to changes in the binary file,,, (ttf)
[17:20] <effie_jayx> they seem irrepresentable
[17:26] <jpds> effie_jayx: Are they in the source tarball?
[17:28] <effie_jayx> jpds,  yes, and that is how they came when I did apt-get source
[17:28] <jpds> effie_jayx: Does the error say what is unreprsentable?
[17:28] <effie_jayx> jacob,  the tty file
[18:13] <ogasawara> hggdh: pong
[18:18] <hggdh> ogasawara, morning to you and all; I will call you private
[18:51] <tuxmaniac> can someone set the bug 239179 importance to Low ?
[18:56] <hggdh> tuxmaniac, done
[18:56] <tuxmaniac> hggdh: thanks
[18:57] <hggdh> I thought you would be able to set importance to low yourself...
[18:57] <tuxmaniac> hggdh: I am not part of that team which will be able to do that
[18:57] <hggdh> ah, ok, sorry
[19:40] <alexadranghi> Hi guys. Just wanted to let me know I'm using Hardy on Linux corus 2.6.24-18-generic #1 SMP 686 GNU/Linux, and just apt-get update & upgrade-ed, and for some reason Thunderbird is now crashing whenever I hit send if I enable signing with Enigmail. Where's the best place to report this problem. I can't see anything in the main log files - where are thunderbird's own log file located? Cheers.
[19:45] <mrooney> alexadranghi: the best thing to do is probably to file a bug in launchpad against thunderbird (ubuntu) and let someone who knows more tell you what they need
[19:46] <mrooney> alexadranghi: check https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/thunderbird to see if the bug has already been reported, otherwise click the "Report a bug" link
[19:47] <alexadranghi> Cheers
[19:49] <alexadranghi> Heh. Look's like firefox died too.
[23:55] <LimCore> how to get source for "p7zip-full" ?   apt-get source "p7zip-full" -> E: Unable to find a source package for p7zip     (I want to edit it's documentation)


[15:31] <charlie-tca> Good morning
[15:31] <charlie-tca> 1 more day to Xubuntu 11.04
[15:33] <holstein> w00t


[16:25] <ChmEarl> running xen in noble 24.04 with kernel-6.5, I see UBSAN kernel errors in xen-blkback and xen-netback drivers when domU launch
[16:26] <ChmEarl> more like warnings since everything works
[16:37] <ravage> ChmEarl: please use #ubuntu-next to discuss development versions


[18:15] <wxl> ummmmm our chair on meeting just left and now meetingology wno't listen to our end meeting command. does anyone have super powers???
[19:31] <kasper> hi
[19:32] <kasper> on which irc channel one can communicate with 'Ubuntu Core Developers' who are responsible for official packages such as https://packages.ubuntu.com/bionic/liblldb-6.0-dev?
[19:34] <krytarik> kasper: #ubuntu-devel


[00:17] <ls612> Is there a compat-wireless package with the alx driver yet for 12.10 beta 2?
[00:18] <C-S-B> My laptop will not shutdown/reboot once I have logged in. suspend is fine.
[00:30] <trism> ls612: did you ever get it working for 12.04?
[00:31] <ls612> yes, I'm typing this in 12.04.1
[00:49] <k1gwb> Has anyone tried playing MP3's on Quantal from a Windows network share? I can't get them to play. I CAN, however, open/play ANY other files, movies, other audio formats, PDFs, pictures, etc. And the SAME MP3s that won't work from the network share DO play if first copied to the local machine.
[00:49] <k1gwb> Also this worked flawlessly on 12.04. Can't find any other reports of it so wasn't sure if doesn't affect anyone else, or maybe no one else has tried this use case...
[01:01] <bjsnider> k1gwb, is there an error message?
[01:04] <k1gwb> bjsnider: Well, in VLC it says Your input can't be opened. Unable to open the MRL (samba path)
[01:04] <k1gwb> Check the log for details. Tried in rhythmbox and mplayer also and rhythmbox just sits there attempting to play whereas mplayer grays out and becomes unresponsive.
[01:05] <k1gwb> it's just weird it's ONLY mp3's, and only when on the network share. MP3s play locally, and wav, avi, MP4, etc all play from the same network share.
[01:39] <k1gwb> Anyone have Ubuntu 12.10 on one Machine and Window 7 on another? :)
[01:40] <Daekdroom> I have them both on the same machine.
[01:41] <k1gwb> Hmm. Maybe I'll try booting off the live CD to see if I can confirm this as a bug. Still can't play MP3's from a Windows network share no matter what I try. But ONLY MP3's. Everything else works fine off the Windows share, and MP3's work fine off the local machine.
[01:42] <IdleOne> maybe permissions
[01:42] <IdleOne> Can't think of anything else
[01:43] <k1gwb> yeah I don't think it's permissions though cause I can copy the mp3 from the share onto the local machine and play it. I can also play/open other files from the same share (wav, avi, mp4, jpg, pdf, doc, etc) just fine.
[01:44] <k1gwb> Also, they worked fine yesterday on 12.04. I've been working with them a lot lately.
[01:44] <k1gwb> And nothing has changed on the Windows computer, and the other machines (both 12.04 and Windows 7) can still play them fine from the share.
[01:44] <k1gwb> So it is really just 12.10 that seems affected.
[01:46] <IdleOne> report a bug,
[01:46] <Daekdroom> Against Samba.
[01:46] <IdleOne> yup
[01:47] <Daekdroom> It's highly unlikely that VLC and mplayer and gstreamer all share the same flaw.
[01:47] <Daekdroom> In the same release :P
[01:47] <Daekdroom> Can't think of anything to blame but Samba.
[01:47] <k1gwb1> ha yeah. Is the samba version different in 12.10 versus 12.04?
[01:47] <IdleOne> probably
[01:48] <RiXtEr> smb -V
[01:48] <RiXtEr> err
[01:48] <IdleOne> !info samba
[01:48] <RiXtEr> smbd -V rather.
[01:48] <Daekdroom> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/samba
[01:48] <k1gwb1> 3.6.6
[01:48] <IdleOne> !info samba pangolin
[01:48] <IdleOne> !info samba precise
[01:48] <k1gwb1> aha. Interesting.
[01:48] <RiXtEr> only bugfixes from 3.6.3 to 3.6.6
[01:49] <IdleOne> bugfix could have introduced a regression/bug
[01:49] <k1gwb1> any involving MP3s? ;)
[01:49] <RiXtEr> what are you using for your client?
[01:49] <RiXtEr> smbclient?
[01:49] <RiXtEr> or a mount -t smbfs or mount -t cifs ?
[01:50] <RiXtEr> or is samba serving from ubuntu to windows?
[01:50] <k1gwb1> I connected via nautilus
[01:50] <RiXtEr> I think there are interesting things with the nautilus samba client
[01:51] <k1gwb1> Ah well it always worked great for me in 12.04
[01:51] <RiXtEr> what is the issue now?
[01:51] <bjsnider> i think the sahres are mounted to ~/.gvfs/
[01:51] <bjsnider> shares
[01:52] <k1gwb> Yeah I used to be able to cd to .gvfs from within ~ and see the shares there
[01:52] <k1gwb> but now if I try to cd to .gvfs it says bash: cd: .gvfs: Transport endpoint is not connected
[01:53] <k1gwb> But I can still browse the shared folder in nautilus.
[01:54] <k1gwb> RiXtEr: If you didn't catch it, it seems I can't play MP3s from a network share via Samba in 12.10. I can play any other type of file including other sound formats and movies from the same share. And I can also play MP3s locally. (including the same ones that won't play via samba, after copying and pasting them over the network)
[01:55] <RiXtEr> k1gwb, ah yes I missed that sorry.
[01:55] <RiXtEr> what does the 'mount' command show you?
[01:56] <k1gwb> !pastebin
[01:57] <k1gwb> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1268565/
[01:59] <k1gwb> just to reiterate, I can play wav files from the exact same folder...and movies and everything else.
[02:00] <RiXtEr> the same application playing the wav's can't play the mp3's or is it a different application?
[02:00] <k1gwb> VLC, mplayer, rhythmbox all can't play the MP3s and all can play the wavs, mp4s etc
[02:01] <RiXtEr> that is very strange...
[02:01] <k1gwb> Quite.
[02:02] <k1gwb> Found this from 2007 haha http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=143410
[02:06] <k1gwb> "Your input can't be opened: VLC is unable to open the MRL 'smb://Desktop1/G drive/Wedding Planning/Music/1 - Pre Ceremony/001 Bach -Sheep May Safely Graze.mp3'. Check the log for details."
[02:12] <Daekdroom> http://xkcd.com/979/
[02:14] <k1gwb> yes exactly
[02:18] <k1gwb> I'm building samba 3.6.8 from source to see if that fixes it
[02:36] <Num83rGuy> anyone know how to get a D-Link DWL 520 wireless card working?
[10:28] <IdleOne> !info skype-bin
[10:29] <vivid> IdleOne, just ninja it from precise....its how i got acroread
[10:30] <IdleOne> not in precise either
[10:30] <vivid> its in the partner repository
[10:32] <IdleOne> thanks
[10:32] <bazhang> !info skype-bin partner
[10:32] <vivid> !info acroread partner
[10:32] <vivid> so that means its available now?
[10:33] <bazhang> yep
[10:33] <vivid> no trickery or magic!
[10:33] <bazhang> try it
[10:33] <vivid> im using precise currently
[10:33] <bazhang> then thats fine
[11:47] <codescience> anything interesting about ubuntu 12.10 server?
[12:01] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[12:14] <Pedrolito> is it normal that 'Alt+F2' doesn't bring the 'run'dialog?  Incidentally, I cannot remap Control+Space to the launcher program Kupfer
[12:15] <jokerdino> Pedrolito: it should unless you have accidentally remapped it
[12:15] <Pedrolito> I haven't remapped anything...
[12:15] <jokerdino> you are on unity yes?
[12:15] <Pedrolito> yes
[12:16] <jokerdino> go to keyboard and check through the shortcut settings
[12:16] <Pedrolito> ok
[12:18] <Pedrolito> nothing is remapped to Ctrl+Space or Alt+F2 there
[12:18] <jokerdino> shrug.
[12:18] <jokerdino> i'll check. brb
[12:18] <Pedrolito> ok
[12:19] <jokerdino> well, i found this. bug 1011647
[12:20] <Pedrolito> that confirms the Alt+F2 problem
[12:21] <Pedrolito> well, except that I don't get to type anything
[12:21] <Pedrolito> nothing appears after I press Alt+F2
[12:22] <jokerdino> i don't have your problem here.
[12:22] <jokerdino> did you upgrade from 12.04?
[12:22] <Pedrolito> yes
[12:22] <jokerdino> might help if you can blow away from your configuration files.
[12:22] <jokerdino> but you would lose your customizations.
[12:22] <Pedrolito> the Control+Space for kupfer was working yesterday
[12:23] <Pedrolito> you mean wipe all my dot files and dot directories?
[12:23] <jokerdino> not everything but almost.
[12:23] <jokerdino> one sec.
[12:23] <jokerdino> try http://askubuntu.com/questions/56313/how-do-i-reset-gnome-to-the-defaults
[12:24] <philinux> alt f2 opens run a command lens here
[12:24] <jokerdino> i suspect a stale config file somewhere.
[12:25] <Pedrolito> ok, I'm trying wiping the config files
[12:25] <philinux> this is a clean install beta 2 including clean home
[12:25] <jokerdino> same here.
[12:25] <jokerdino> i reinstalled on october 3
[12:26] <philinux> mind u what commands can it run
[12:27] <philinux> seems a bit limited to apps so I cant see the point unless I'm missing something
[12:31] <Pedrolito> didn't change the situation :(
[12:31] <jokerdino> Try logging out and back in.
[12:31] <Pedrolito> I just did that
[12:31] <jokerdino> If you haven't already done so.. alright.
[12:32] <Pedrolito> I noticed I'm not getting the HUD thing when I'm pressing Alt
[12:32] <jokerdino> Hm
[12:32] <philinux> Pedrolito: sounds like bad config
[12:33] <Pedrolito> I did not change anything on the system between yesterday when everything was working fine and today
[12:34] <philinux> Pedrolito: I'd try a unity reset > dconf reset -f /org/compiz/
[12:34] <Pedrolito> the only thing I did besides webbrowsing and coding were installing updates
[12:34] <Pedrolito> I did that too philinux
[12:34] <philinux> very odd then
[12:35] <philinux> I'm up to date and all ok
[12:35] <jokerdino> just fine here
[12:36] <Pedrolito> oh well, I'm going to try to debug kupfer to see why it cannot register control+space, maybe I'll see what's going wrong then
[12:36] <Pedrolito> thanks for your help guys
[12:36] <jokerdino> good luck Pedrolito
[12:37] <philinux> ok happy bug hunting
[14:29] <Gamoder_> Hi everyone, I got the following problem: whenever I click on an embedded object in any libre office application (e.g. writer or calc) and then click on the the "rest" of the document, libre office crashes. Is this a known problem?
[14:30] <Gamoder_> unfortunately, there seems to be no stacktrace
[14:30] <Gamoder_> at least it isn't displayed
[14:31] <Gamoder_> I am using XFCE as desktop environment, if that matters - 64 bit ubuntu 12.10
[15:12] <phoenix_firebrd> nepomuk forgets the indexed files after restart. the files are in drives which are mounted manually
[15:30] <MonkeyDust> i've installed quantal and am unable to login from lightdm - i'm now iw a terminal session (ctrl-alt-f1) - installed fallback session, not better - hints and tips?
[15:30] <bazhang> fresh install or upgrade
[15:30] <MonkeyDust> fresh install
[15:31] <bazhang> I had the exact same issue with a fresh install
[15:31] <MonkeyDust> how did you solve it?
[15:31] <bazhang> the graphics became a huge black and white checkerboard, and completely unresponsive
[15:32] <MonkeyDust> just a normal lightdm screen here, can login with guest user, but not with the normal user
[15:32] <bazhang> I never was able to complete the fresh install as a result
[15:32] <bazhang> so you got much further than I did
[15:33] <MonkeyDust> yihaa
[15:33] <bazhang> I never got past the choosing language section
[15:33] <MonkeyDust> back to 12.04... another 15 minutes ;)
[15:40] <designbybeck> Random question. When Ubuntu comes out with say 12.10.... and they have 12.04.1LTS... do they just build upon that?
[15:40] <designbybeck> just curious as to how they do it
[15:40] <designbybeck> .
[15:42] <jpds> designbybeck: Build on what
[15:42] <jpds> ?
[15:43] <designbybeck> is 12.10 built on top of 12.04.01
[15:43] <designbybeck> i guess I'm wondering if all the updates thus far, get put into 12.10
[15:43] <jpds> designbybeck: In a way, it continues from 12.04.
[15:43] <designbybeck> like when you do a new install, and you already hve some new updates
[15:43] <Daekdroom> All updates there is in 12.04.1 from 12.04 should be in 12.10
[15:44] <jpds> designbybeck: That's because the ISO has a fixed set of packages.
[15:44] <Daekdroom> Otherwise issues might happen.
[15:44] <designbybeck> gotcha
[15:45] <designbybeck> I just tried LinuxMint Cinnamon with my laptop I'm on now. It reminded me of Ubuntu 10.04-11.04 as far as how it handled the ATI video card
[15:45] <designbybeck> such a pain. But since Ubuntu 11.10 things have been great
[15:46] <designbybeck> I've got a new system coming in the next few days that I was debating on what distro to go with
[15:46] <designbybeck> but I'm thinking I might just have to go with 12.10 afterall!
[15:47] <BluesKaj> designbybeck,  which graphics in the new system ? Some ati cards are having issues in 12.10 ubuntu
[15:47] <designbybeck> the new system will be a 1GB Quadro NVIDIA
[15:48] <designbybeck> 16GB Ram Quadcore Xeon 256SSD
[15:48] <designbybeck> BluesKaj: On my laptop I might just stay with Ubuntu 12.04 which is running decently with this ATI card, or go to something like LinuxMint XCFE
[15:48] <designbybeck> so that it is a lil' lighterweight
[15:49] <BluesKaj> then you should be ok  , most nvidia run fine on 12.10
[15:49] <designbybeck> :D
[15:52] <BluesKaj> yeah even my laptop with intel graphics is fine on 12.04 , but a friend with ati laptop graphics is having probs with unity so he switched to kde , problems went away ...lesser load on the gpu , a lighter form of compiz in kwin
[15:52] <designbybeck> ah yes, I've always thought kwin was pretty sleek and polished
[15:52] <designbybeck> I haven't tried the beta for Kubuntu 12.10
[15:53] <designbybeck> guess I could just wait a few more days to do that
[15:53] <BluesKaj> i'm sticking with 12.04 on the laptop 'til the end of november , then I'll try 12.10
[15:54] <designbybeck> Ubuntu or Kubuntu BluesKaj?
[15:55] <servaas>  xubuntu 12.10 high cpu load for mountall --daemon, gvfs-udisks2-volume-monitor
[15:55] <BluesKaj> oh kubuntu always ..I tried to like ubuntu , but it never did much for me
[15:56] <designbybeck> ;)
[16:00] <designbybeck> BluesKaj:  you ever try LinuxMint KDE?
[16:03] <BluesKaj> designbybeck, no ,but I have thought about it
[16:03] <designbybeck> I might have another look at it myself
[16:07] <designbybeck> hey BluesKaj, what is your KDE setup like? Do you customize it a lot? Awesome tweaks? change up the docks and such? Or do you stay pretty stock?
[16:09] <BluesKaj> designbybeck, , I'm not big on eyecandy , std themes , no docks , but Iam particula rabout having a different wall paper for each desktop , landscape photos of my area
[16:10] <designbybeck> ah yes
[16:10] <designbybeck> cool
[16:10] <BluesKaj> or more like lake scapes :)
[16:10] <designbybeck> nice!
[16:10] <designbybeck> i've found that Linux Mint comes with some cool ones
[16:15] <designbybeck> One thing I really like about the whole Linux DE community and such is that most all applications will run on other DEs
[16:15] <designbybeck> might not look the same, but most of the time it at least works
[16:16] <BluesKaj> wallpapers like this one designbybeck ..Wife's Family cottage shoreline and lake view ,http://imagebin.org/231396
[16:17] <designbybeck> sweet! BluesKaj pretty awesome when it's a place you've been! ;) Most places i have on wallpapers I only dream of going to!
[16:18] <BluesKaj> it's bit large due to screen size but ctrl - will bring it down
[16:18] <designbybeck> ah 8desktops! iis that because you have dual monitors?
[16:18] <BluesKaj> yeah , nothern Ontario , it's actually an ancient crater
[16:18] <designbybeck> do you use all the desktops a lot? I find I don't use the others much because I have a dual screen setup
[16:19] <BluesKaj> nope I designbybeck , I just like to use one desktop per app :)
[16:19] <designbybeck> what size monitor do you have?
[16:20] <BluesKaj> it's actually our TV , 42" panasonic plasma
[16:20] <designbybeck> OOHHhhh
[16:20] <designbybeck> at home I have a system hooked to my 42" lg
[16:20] <designbybeck> pretty good setup for the most part
[16:22] <BluesKaj> yerah , this pc is a basic media server for audio and video , but wife also has her own pc so get to play on this
[16:22] <BluesKaj> I get to
[16:25] <BluesKaj> we 're both retired ..so I have plenty of time on my hands to fool with linux etc ...gotta fix the hinges on the laptop tho ...one of these days :)
[16:26] <designbybeck> :)
[16:27] <designbybeck> I was just looking at my LinuxDistro folder, I've got 28 of them in there  for about 24.4GB of space
[16:27] <designbybeck> I guess collecting LinuxDistros is my hobby! ;)
[16:27] <bazhang> !adlens
[16:29] <BluesKaj> designbybeck, any advantages using linux mint over ubuntu other than stability ?
[16:30] <designbybeck> well like I said the headache I had with LinuxMint and the ATI card just turned me off to the whole thing. But what I did see on another system, I was liking Cinnamon, seemed to have the best of all the worlds
[16:30] <designbybeck> felt lighter than Unity
[16:30] <designbybeck> ....well best of all worlds meaning Gnome/Unity
[16:33] <BluesKaj> does mint offer kde as an option ?'
[16:33] <designbybeck> yes
[16:33] <designbybeck> as well as XCFE
[16:33] <designbybeck> which I think they did a good job of bringing some visual elements/eyecandy from Mint to the XCFE at least
[16:34] <designbybeck> KDE looks pretty much the same
[16:36] <BluesKaj> I've tried a few other non-debian-based distros , but the package management systems don't measure up to dpkg , so I felt deprived :)
[16:36] <designbybeck> yeah that is what one of the lead developers from Google Said about why they use Ubuntu
[16:36] <designbybeck> did you see that article!? It was great!!!
[16:37] <phoenix_firebrd> nepomuk forgets the indexed files after restart. the files are in drives which are mounted manually. Using Kubuntu 12.10 beta 2
[16:38] <designbybeck> BluesKaj: He replied, “We chose Debian because packages and apt [Debian's basic software package programs] are light-years ahead of RPM http://www.zdnet.com/the-truth-about-goobuntu-googles-in-house-desktop-ubuntu-linux-7000003462/
[16:38] <BluesKaj> designbybeck, no don't think I saw the article.
[16:44] <designbybeck> BluesKaj:  what I don't understand is how Google says things like this, but doesn't have a Google Drive for Linux yet!? and other things like supporting ODT format natively in Google Docs/Drive
[16:44] <designbybeck> i saw someone post about that this mroning
[16:44] <phoenix_firebrd> nepomuk forgets the indexed files after restart. the files are in drives which are mounted manually. Using Kubuntu 12.10 beta 2
[17:02] <designbybeck> BluesKaj: on another note.... Okular for PDFs have you used it?
[17:03] <BluesKaj> yes , designbybeck , works fine IME
[17:04] <designbybeck> have you tried to do any Annotation with it
[17:04] <BluesKaj> designbybeck, I havent created any PDfs , but okular handles exiting ones just fine
[17:05] <designbybeck> I've been trying to find a solution for faculty to annotate on students papers, but the only thing that I don't like about Okular is that the Annotation feature, lets you turn it on click draw, but turns off after you draw
[17:05] <designbybeck> so you can pretty much only write one letter at a time
[17:05] <silverarrow> I have a new USB 16GB flash, and it is formatted to windows 95 fat?
[17:05] <designbybeck> unless I'm using it wrong. and it would be great because it runs on all platforms
[17:07] <edgy> hi, what package I need to install to make this page work? https://www.java.com/en/download/testjava.jsp
[17:07] <bazhang> java?
[17:08] <bazhang> you want the openJDK or the one from oracle
[17:08] <edgy> I installed openjdk and icedtea-7-plugin:amd64
[17:08] <edgy> openjdk-7-jre:amd64 is installed
[17:09] <edgy> bazhang: but neither firefox nor chrome can view the java applet there
[17:09] <edgy> bazhang: can you please test yourself, may be it's a bug
[17:09] <bazhang> yep tested
[17:09] <bazhang> openjdk only here
[17:10] <edgy> bazhang: which version? 7?
[17:10] <bazhang> does not work
[17:10] <edgy> bazhang: so it's not working for you too?
[17:10] <bazhang> edgy, whatever 12.10 has
[17:10] <bazhang> edgy, correct
[17:10] <edgy> bazhang: quantal has many versions
[17:11] <bazhang> !find openjdk
[17:11] <bazhang> 7 then
[17:13] <bazhang> !info openjdk-7-jre
[17:27] <BluesKaj> major upgrade , 230
[17:27] <BluesKaj> on the kubuntu side
[17:28] <designbybeck> oh?
[17:29] <BluesKaj> yeah , still upgrading
[17:30] <designbybeck> I'm trying to install LinuxMint KDE on this old 512MB P4 system
[17:30] <BluesKaj> takes a while with this older DSL connection
[17:30] <designbybeck> These are the ones we gave away this past weekend with our TexOS Project, I feel bad because Xubuntu wasn't very "awesome" for the students and seemed sluggish
[17:31] <designbybeck> already LinuxMint XCFE has preformed better on it, and I'm trying the KDE
[17:31] <BluesKaj> yeah 512Ram may not cut it for kde
[17:33] <BluesKaj> oops , forgot the terminal was ssh'd into the laptop , that's 12.04 upgrade coming down the pipe :)
[17:34] <designbybeck> ah
[17:35] <BluesKaj> yeah , it hasn't been updated/upgraded for a while ....rarely turn it on these days
[17:36] <edgy> bazhang: did you find a bug filed that java not working?
[17:37] <bazhang> edgy, I'd assume that oracle wants us to use their version
[17:37] <edgy> bazhang: openjdk is not related to oracle, it's developed by the community, no?
[17:37] <bazhang> thats right
[17:38] <BluesKaj> I'll probly need to put a W7 partition on the laptop in the spring , since hotels are notorious for being linux-unfriendly IME  ..we plan to do some travelling in march / april
[17:39] <BluesKaj> ok BBL, stuff to do for a few mins
[17:40] <designbybeck> ah, luckly I haen't had a problem with hotels adn linux
[18:23] <MonkeyDust> installed quantal, unable to login from lightdm - i'm here ow using a terminal session (ctrl-alt-f1)
[18:23] <MonkeyDust> created another user, login ok, guest login ok, just not with my normal user - hints and tips?
[18:34] <trism> MonkeyDust: did you upgrade from 12.04?
[18:37] <trism> MonkeyDust: in any case check out /var/log/lightdm/lightdm.log (the other question was because if you used unity-2d in 12.04 there was a bug that was fixed 3 hours ago that wouldn't let you log in, so you might just need to upgrade)
[18:38] <MonkeyDust> trism  fresh install 12.10
[18:39] <trism> strange, definitely check out the lightdm.log as a start to see what sort of error is returned
[18:39] <trism> MonkeyDust: could you log in when you first installed? may have messed up ~/.Xauthority
[18:41] <MonkeyDust> log: paste.ubuntu.com/1269775
[18:41] <MonkeyDust> trism  no and never touched .Xauthority
[18:42] <MonkeyDust> didnt know it existed
[18:42] <trism> well you wouldn't touch it, I believe it generally gets corrupted when you accidently run a gui app with sudo
[18:42] <MonkeyDust> didnt, because I had no gui
[18:43] <trism> wrong part of the log, I need the part with the session selected
[18:43] <MonkeyDust> trism  it was tail, now i'll show the whole log
[18:44] <MonkeyDust> log: paste.ubuntu.com/1269787
[18:48] <trism> MonkeyDust: weird, is there an error in /var/log/auth.log for the gbachot user? (did you select autologin when installing?)
[18:49] <MonkeyDust> trism  no, not autoselect -- gbachot is the normal user
[18:49] <MonkeyDust> moment
[18:49] <trism> MonkeyDust: ~/.xsession-errors might be interesting too (and see if autologin is enabled in /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf)
[18:50] <MonkeyDust> log: paste.ubuntu.com/1269801
[18:53] <trism> MonkeyDust: that looks fine
[18:54] <MonkeyDust> not seen from here
[18:54] <trism> though the lightdm-autologin still makes me think that autologin might be in /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf
[18:55] <trism> guess that just leaves ~/.xsession-errors to see if anything is crashing in there
[18:56] <trism> though it would be strange for a fresh install for the main user not to work but new users do, did you preserve /home or anything in the install?
[18:58] <MonkeyDust> not better after reboot
[18:59] <trism> MonkeyDust: I do notice in auth.log 'auth could not identify password for [gbachot]' do you have any strange characters in the password?
[19:00] <MonkeyDust> no, a-z 0-9 characters, the passwd is accepted when i login in a terminal session
[19:01] <trism> MonkeyDust: okay, how about ~/.xsession-errors for the user
[19:01] <MonkeyDust> trism, i entered false passwd on purpose, got an error msg, didnt get that before
[19:04] <MonkeyDust> .xsession-errors: paste.ubuntu.com/1269824
[19:07] <trism> MonkeyDust: that is interesting is byobu installed?
[19:10] <MonkeyDust> some byobu error, installed byobu, not better (byobu is an extenion for screen, i no longer use it
[19:10] <MonkeyDust> )
[19:11] <trism> MonkeyDust: did you preserve /home in this fresh install?
[19:12] <MonkeyDust> trism  yes
[19:14] <trism> MonkeyDust: did .xsession-errors change at all after installing byobu? I'm not certain how byobu gets set as default like that so not sure how to disable it
[19:15] <trism> MonkeyDust: generally in .xsession-errors when starting the ubuntu session you should see a bunch of compiz plugins loading, so only seeing those couple lines is odd
[19:16] <MonkeyDust> trism  i never liked from the start, i'm used to fallback mode
[19:16] <MonkeyDust> liked compiz/unity
[19:16] <trism> MonkeyDust: if you install gnome-panel , restart lightdm and try to log in to the Classic (no effects) session does it work?
[19:17] <MonkeyDust> trism  already tried that, not better
[19:18] <MonkeyDust> screen freezes, restart, brb
[19:23] <trism> MonkeyDust: I checked line 27 in lightdm-session, and it seems the error is from sourcing .profile, probably not keeping you from logging in but you may want to remove the byobu stuff
[19:25] <trism> MonkeyDust: ls -l ~/.Xauthority; out of curiosity, not root owned is it? otherwise something in your home directory is keeping it from logging in but hard to tell what
[19:26] <bandit-led> could some one check latest libreoffice writer and see if they can paste text into a table?
[19:26] <trism> MonkeyDust: maybe some clues in /var/log/Xorg.0.log but otherwise may just need to move/delete your dotfiles out of the way until it lets you log in
[19:26] <bandit-led> Libreoffice Version <IP_ADDRESS>
[19:27] <bandit-led> never mind its a wine issue not libreoffice
[20:07] <BvL> Hi I need a little help, I'm getting a kernel panic on my macbook (2,1), which was not present on 12.04 LTS
[20:07] <BvL> I installed Ubuntu on a external hard drive, I built a uefi comparable grub v2.00 in order to use the external drive
[20:07] <BvL> I looked in my log files and I couldn’t find this boot time kernel panic,
[20:08] <BvL> I came form the #ubuntu channel (I was suggested to try this channel by wilee-nilee), TJ- (#ubuntu channel) suggested i may be able use a "usb serial link" to get the kernel logs, but I don’t have that
[20:09] <smallfoot-> when i can haz firefox 16?
[20:09] <BvL> any additional advice would be appreciated
[20:09] <TJ-> BvL: I think video recording the screen may be the fastest way to grab the panic; without a serial port things get complicated. You can also set up a tcp connection back to a simple TCP client like netcat, but it can be difficult to set-up
[20:11] <BvL> Tj- after i capture the bug, would i have to retype the whole contents of my kernel log
[20:12] <BvL> TJ- i got the the error but its i dont understand the error
[20:13] <TJ-> You only really need the lines that detail the PANIC itself, which will include a stacktrace showing where in each function the CPU was when the panic occured
[20:15] <BvL> whats a stacktrace? is it [    0.981514]
[20:18] <BvL> everything seams fine until i get an bug - then i get an oops - and a couple of dozen lines later i get a "kernel panic - not syncing: attempt to kill init!"...
[20:19] <smallfoot-> BvL, no a stacktrace is something you get with a debugger (such as gdb)
[20:27] <designbybeck> USB ImageWriter vs UNetbBootin
[20:27] <designbybeck> or what else do you guys use for creating USBs
[20:27] <BvL>
[20:27] <BvL> smallfoot- I'm still unsure what a stacktrace is, could you point me towards an example?
[20:27] <designbybeck> Unetbootin' seems old
[20:27] <BvL> in my error I do have a stack, or a call trace but I don’t think your referring to that
[20:28] <designbybeck> but it does the job
[20:29] <smallfoot-> BvL, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_trace
[20:33] <BvL> smallfoot-: Oops: 0010 [#1] SMP?
[20:34] <smallfoot-> BvL, doesn't look like a stacktrace, but idk, maybe your 'dmesg' output could be useful
[20:35] <BvL> smallfoot-: I cant find the error in my logs, would 'dmesg' still show it? (boot time kernel panic)
[20:36] <TJ-> BvL:  Look at this bug for an example of the stacktrace. It starts with the "EIP: [<....." line bug #1029704
[20:36] <smallfoot-> no
[20:43] <BvL> Thanks everyone
[21:03] <smallfoot-> i can has firefox 16?
[21:04] <bjsnider> firefox is up to 16 now? it will be at 100 by this time next year
[21:12] <smallfoot-> ya it is
[21:12] <smallfoot-> its 1 new release every month
[21:13] <smallfoot-> firefox daily trunk is actually version 19
[21:13] <smallfoot-> and google chrome is 22
[21:13] <smallfoot-> chrome-dev is v24
[22:09] <smallfoot-> thanks for firefox 16!! IM HAPPY NOW!!
[22:09] <smallfoot-> firefox <3
[22:09] <smallfoot-> ubuntu <3
[22:09] <smallfoot-> unity </3
[22:13] <jpds> Unity's great.
[23:16] <smallfoot-> jpds, i hate adware
[23:17] <vivid> feels like 12.10 is full of it...
[23:17] <smallfoot-> yeah
[23:17] <smallfoot-> unity is adware
[23:17] <smallfoot-> the new ubuntu is adware, it sucks
[23:17] <vivid> i just disable it all, but it seems like i have to disable more stuff with every release
[23:17] <smallfoot-> oh
[23:18] <smallfoot-> yeah, i dont even use unity. i want to a menu to run software from, and unity is a slow, bloated kitchenthink that does everything but that... well it can do that, but it does it poorly
[23:19] <vivid> i disagree, but youre entitled to your opinion
[23:19] <vivid> removing unity-scope-musicstores and unity-scope-video-remote helps alot in precise..
[23:20] <smallfoot-> and mark shuttleworth can talk about value-added user experience improvement partner content delivery technology, but it basically means ADWARE
[23:20] <smallfoot-> yeah
[23:20] <smallfoot-> i got a script that removes those 2 packages
[23:21] <smallfoot-> but i don't like unity, and i think gnome went downhill with gnome3 too... so now whole linux has gone down
[23:21] <smallfoot-> i use gnome fallback session, but it got its bugs and i hear they are planning to remove it
[23:21] <vivid> i think youll find that unity becomes an excellently accepted desktop....after everyone gets off the i dont like it bandwagon
[23:22] <smallfoot-> maybe cinnamon (linux mint) or phantom (elementary) could be something
[23:22] <vivid> it also feels like 1995
[23:22] <smallfoot-> unity doesn't seem very well thought out for 24" screens, they made it on their netbook remix for 9" netbooks
[23:22] <vivid> works great on my 52" dont see how 24" would be any different
[23:23] <vivid> clean, simple, effective
[23:23] <smallfoot-> doesn't feel so 95 with compiz and fancy plugins
[23:23] <vivid> gnome legacy will always feel 1995
[23:23] <vivid> because its not moving forward
[23:23] <smallfoot-> maybe it doesn't have to
[23:23] <smallfoot-> a good paradigm is a good paradigm
[23:24] <vivid> aiming to solve bug #1 doesnt include outdated ineffecient desktops
[23:24] <smallfoot-> change for the sake of change is bad
[23:24] <vivid> if it did, that bug would be closed
[23:25] <smallfoot-> no it doesnt
[23:25] <smallfoot-> people want photoshop and call of duty 3
[23:25] <smallfoot-> does linux have that? no it doesnt
[23:25] <vivid> it will in the future
[23:25] <smallfoot-> doesn't matter how userfriendly or good linux is, its shit and ppl dont want it if doesnt have photoshop or crysis
[23:25] <vivid> thats not true, i use it every day and im an avid gamer
[23:26] <smallfoot-> well, your argument of "if it did, that bug would be closed" doesn't resonate with "it will in the future"
[23:26] <vivid> and gimp > photoshop
[23:26] <smallfoot-> i use linux everyday too, and i use gimp too... but gimp is better than photoshop? what are you smoking?
[23:26] <vivid> if the state of linux in 1995 (where gnome legacy is) could compete, the bug would be closed
[23:26] <smallfoot-> gimp doesn't support cmyk, doesn't support deep color depths
[23:26] <vivid> it supports me making fantastic artwork and websites
[23:27] <smallfoot-> yeah its good, you can do nice stuff with gimp, i use gimp... but claiming it is superior to photoshop is bs
[23:27] <vivid> sure it is, check the price tag
[23:27] <smallfoot-> better = features, functionality, ability to do things, not price tag
[23:27] <vivid> not to any business exec, $$ makes things move
[23:28] <bjsnider> how many people actually use photoshop?
[23:28]  * vivid does not raise hand
[23:28] <smallfoot-> well then nano is better than microsoft office, because ms office cost money and nano is free
[23:28] <smallfoot-> your logic is great lol
[23:28] <vivid> yea but, libreoffice is better than nano, so you compare apples to ocelots
[23:29] <smallfoot-> face it, ms office is superior to libreoffice
[23:29] <smallfoot-> and photoshop is superior to gimp
[23:29] <smallfoot-> anything else is a outright lie
[23:29] <vivid> i disagree, again, youre entitled to your opinion
[23:29] <smallfoot-> "but its free!" lol, get real
[23:30] <smallfoot-> does gimp support 16-bit color depth? no it does not! gimp is great for amateur use, but its not professional software
[23:30] <vivid> i wonder what the ratio of people using photoshop that bought it versus people that stole it
[23:30] <smallfoot-> doesnt matter
[23:30] <vivid> it does to me, if i was in to stealing why would i use linux?
[23:30] <smallfoot-> even if 100% downloaded photoshop, it doesnt matter, ITS STILL BETTER than gimp
[23:30] <smallfoot-> i dont know, why wouldn't you?
[23:31] <smallfoot-> if you were into stealing, you wouldn't use linux?
[23:31] <bjsnider> you can buy an oem version of photoshop for $100
[23:31] <vivid> no, id just steal windows 7 and use it..
[23:31] <smallfoot-> you imply that if you were into stealing, you would use microsoft windows because it is superior, but since you're not into stealing you use linux
[23:31] <bjsnider> it's superior at crashing and getting infected
[23:31] <vivid> no, youre putting words into my mouth.  its not better
[23:32] <smallfoot-> crashing? bullshit, windows is more stable than linux
[23:32] <smallfoot-> linux crashes far more often than windows does
[23:32] <vivid> yea....until you get some ridiculous virus and callhomes
[23:32] <vivid> after you agree to that license...
[23:32] <smallfoot-> experienced users don't get any viruses, its only idiots who do
[23:32] <smallfoot-> and when these idiots start using linux, they will get viruses on linux too
[23:32] <smallfoot-> idiocy can not be cured
[23:33] <vivid> the majority of the world probably qualifies as "idiot"
[23:33] <smallfoot-> and linux is in no way immune to viruses
[23:33] <vivid> though, i dont think anyone has urged you to use linux.....if you dont like it youre free to go your own way :p
[23:34] <smallfoot-> i like linux, i prefer it over windows, which is why i use it
[23:34] <smallfoot-> i also like linux
[23:34] <smallfoot-> i also like gimp
[23:34] <smallfoot-> but i do admit that photoshop is superior to gimp and that windows is more stable than ubuntu
[23:34] <vivid> so use those likes to change your attitude and eliminate what you think makes other applications superior
[23:34] <vivid> patches welcome
[23:35] <smallfoot-> if photoshop were free open source software and available for linux, i would use it because it is superior to gimp
[23:36] <vivid> if mars were habitable, i would live there
[23:37] <bjsnider> photoshop could be ported to linux without it being foss
[23:37] <bjsnider> although RMS would blow a gasket
[23:37] <vivid> could also be run with wine
[23:37] <vivid> or a VM
[23:39] <smallfoot-> unless its free software i don't want it... gimp is good enough for my needs (i don't do professional graphics work) even though its inferior compared to photoshop
[23:42] <vivid> i bet i could beat you in a debate on that :p
[23:43] <smallfoot-> yeah, with arguments like "gimp is free, photoshop cost money so that means gimp is better" lol
[23:43] <vivid> i wouldnt even say anything, i would just use it on three platforms and make amazing graphics in realtime
[23:43] <vivid> then let you....do the same
[23:44] <vivid> friendly debate, of course
[23:45] <smallfoot-> thats like "Software X works on DOS, OpenVMS, CP/M, IRIX, HP-UX, and AIX - all these platforms, software Y only runs on Windows, so that means software X is superior to software Y"
[23:46] <vivid> uh yeah.  thats an excellent factor especially when paired with professional work
[23:46] <vivid> i mean, i dont only use linux...i have several windows machines and a mac
[23:46] <smallfoot-> except that nobody gives a shit about DOS, OpenVMS, CP/M, IRIX, HP-UX, and AIX
[23:47] <vivid> i was hinting at linux/windows/mac, but those others are possibilities as well
[23:47] <smallfoot-> I only use Linux
[23:47] <vivid> my philosophy is bug 1 gets solved by supporting all platforms, so the software i write is always multi-platform
[23:47] <vivid> stop that ubottu
[23:48] <vivid> if only more influential developers agreed
[23:50] <smallfoot-> cross-platform is great, and i think its good that there are ppl who develope cross-platform software, but from a business pov it just increases development time and effort provides negative return on investment
[23:51] <vivid> yea i have a philosophy on that too
[23:51] <vivid> and the current state of world economics seems to support it :p