[20:22] <johnc4510> The Fridge: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/
[20:22] <johnc4510> By subcription to our ubuntu-news mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-news
[20:22] <johnc4510> And we also publish a teaser to dig, readit, Free Software News, and UbuntuPoint.
[20:23] <johnc4510> After we publish a new edition, we set up the next edition's wiki page, and start the process all over again for the next week.
[20:24] <johnc4510> We gather stories from many different sources: RSS feeds of major open source news reporting websites, searching google for blog items of interest, reading countless Ubuntu mailing list archives, keeping up with Planet Ubuntu, Launchpad, #ubuntu-meeting, etc.
[20:25] <johnc4510> We also get a lot on input from you, the Ubuntu Community. People often drop into the #ubuntu-news channel, email our ubuntu-news-team mailing list, or catch us in any one of a dozen channels our team members help to populate.
[20:26] <johnc4510> So as you can see, we are a very busy team working to keep up with all the great things going on in the greater Ubuntu Community, and what's being said about Ubuntu all over the world.
[20:26] <johnc4510> QUESTION: how guided are those poplulations
[20:27] <johnc4510> rufong: i'm not sure what your asking...can you rephrase?
[20:29] <johnc4510> QUESTION: rufong i mean did you have specific channels targeted to help spread /launch unbuntunews
[20:29] <johnc4510> rufong: we try to publish our newsletter to sites that have a rather large following in the open source community
[20:29] <johnc4510> the more people who read our publication the better
[20:30] <johnc4510> The Ubuntu distribution speaks for itself as far as quality goes
[20:30] <johnc4510> but it's up to the community to spread the word to the rest of the world
[20:31] <johnc4510> rufong: does that answer your question?
[20:31] <johnc4510> From time to time we do an interview of an especially prominent team or individual in the Ubuntu Community.
[20:31]  * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
[20:32] <johnc4510> After picking a subject to interview, we usually email them asking if they would be interested in answering some questions about themselves and/or their project.
[20:32] <johnc4510> We then collaborate to decide what questions the community might want answered and email them to the person.
[20:32] <johnc4510> Interviews are published as is and can help to promote what that individual or team is doing.
[20:33] <johnc4510> So if you know an individual or team that is making a difference within the greater Ubuntu Community, let us know so that we can share that with everyone.
[20:33] <johnc4510> Anyone can join our team, or submit links.
[20:34] <johnc4510> Unlike The Fridge where you need to submit news items anyone can add links to the wiki page of the next edition of the UWN.
[20:34] <johnc4510> You'll always find the edition that is being worked on here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter listed under the sub-header: Next Issue(Work in Progress)
[20:35] <johnc4510> The wiki page of the next edition has sections that make it fairly easy to decide where your link should go.
[20:36] <johnc4510> sections like: General Community News is for Ubuntu announcements
[20:36] <johnc4510> LoCo news is for reporting on the events for the Ubuntu LoCo teams project
[20:36] <johnc4510> lanuchpad is for launchpad news
[20:36] <johnc4510> etc
[20:37] <johnc4510> you should find a section
[20:37] <johnc4510> If you confused about what section to add it too, you can always ask in #ubuntu-news, or submit your link by email to our team at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:38] <johnc4510> I have been working on the UWN for almost 2 years now. During that time, Ubuntu and our community has continued to grow at an astounding rate.
[20:38] <johnc4510> For our team, it is easy to see this growth because the size and scope of our publication has had to grow to keep up with the ever expanding array of quality material we find each week.
[20:39] <johnc4510> With this growth, we are also now starting to see constant news, blog, and community news items every week, allowing us to pick and choose from the best articles available.
[20:39] <johnc4510> Expansion and growth means that our team is experiencing new and exciting challenges each week, and that helps to keep us fresh and eager to report the news.
[20:40] <johnc4510> Unlike many Ubuntu teams, who might have 6 months to get their project ready, we have to have a finished product ready to go every week.
[20:41] <johnc4510> It's challenging, rewarding, and hard work. It's a new and fresh experience every week, and we love it!!
[20:41] <johnc4510> We have a great team of workers who are dedicated to publishing the lastest news about Ubuntu and our community.
[20:41] <johnc4510> Working on the UWN is a great way to contribute to the Ubuntu Project, and our community.
[20:42] <johnc4510> Our publication is widely read, highly regarded, and often linked to or quoted by large open source news site and blogs.
[20:42] <johnc4510> Anyone wanting to join our team should visit #ubuntu-news, or email me at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:43] <johnc4510> We would be very happy to have you join our team to help us keep the Ubuntu Community and the world, up to date on the latest and greatest news about our favorite operating system "Ubuntu."
[20:43] <johnc4510> It's a very rewarding way to contribute,and a great way to get recognized within the community.
[20:44] <johnc4510> QUESTION: What are the requirments to join the team?
[20:45] <johnc4510> charlie-tca: anyone can join...just drop by our launchpad team and sign up Launchpad: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-news
[20:45] <johnc4510> after doing that drop by the #ubuntu-news channel and chat with us
[20:45] <johnc4510> :)
[20:46] <johnc4510> since we are a weekly publication, dependency is a must, and basic english is needed
[20:47] <johnc4510> we have a tight schedule to hit each week, so we need folks that aren't afraid to get in there and work each wk
[20:47] <johnc4510> :)
[20:47] <johnc4510> QUESTION: Does the CofC influence our writing?
[20:48] <johnc4510> It sure does, as with all Ubuntu teams we adhere very strickly to the CofC
[20:49] <johnc4510> I hope everyone got a good feel for what the Ubuntu-News Team is all about during this session today. Whether or not our team is the right fit for you, I hope you'll find some way to contribute back to the Ubuntu project.
[20:50] <ball> s/monopole/monopoly/
[20:50] <johnc4510> Of note, we also are starting to carry more podcast links in the edition
[20:50] <sebsebseb> ball: wrong channel?
[20:50]  * ball nods
[20:50] <johnc4510> it has become a very popular media outlet
[20:51] <johnc4510> 2 in particular are the Ubuntu-UK podcast the Ubuntu podcast that nick and josh do
[20:51] <johnc4510> QUESTION: Does the CofC cause us any conflict in reporting stories?
[20:52] <johnc4510> no, we try to keep the community informed about everything that is being said about Ubuntu
[20:53] <johnc4510> unless the story is totally off base, contains fowl language etc we will carry it
[20:54] <johnc4510> QUESTION: can the UWN have a more useful rss feed...containing the articles instead of just a feed of the issue
[20:55] <johnc4510> the feed is set up to come off the planet i believe...and we don't publish the whole edition to the planet
[20:55] <jcastro> 5 minute warning
[20:55] <johnc4510> jcastro: thx
[20:56] <johnc4510> in closing, we have a great team that works very hard to keep everyone informed about Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community
[20:56] <johnc4510> if you have an interest in helping out we would love to have you
[20:57] <johnc4510> thanks for listening and submitting your question...it's been great fun
[20:57] <nixternal> thanks a gon johnc4510, great job!
[20:57] <johnc4510> jcastro: nixternal thx :)
[20:58] <nixternal> the next topic will be "How To Triage Bugs in Ubuntu" presented by Pedro Villavicencio....he should be here shortly unless I missed him come in
[20:59] <pedro_> I'm already here since a few hours ;-)
[20:59] <nixternal> oh, there he his
[20:59] <pedro_> let's roll then!
[20:59] <nixternal> alright then, here is my awesome introduction then :)
[20:59] <nixternal> ....
[20:59] <nixternal> En vivo desde el Aula de Ubuntu canal de IRC en todas las ciudades de todo el mundo, para los cientos de asistentes y los millones viendo en todo el mundo, señoras y señores, prepárate para triage algunos errores! En la esquina roja tenemos el campeón reinante, Pedro Villavicencio, que será la enseñanza a todos ustedes la forma de "triage" errores en Ubuntu. Si esto es masacrados, pido disculpas y la culpa en Google.
[21:00] <nixternal> ....
[21:00] <nixternal> the floor is yours sir :)
[21:00] <pedro_> lol!
[21:00] <pedro_> Google did a great work haha
[21:00] <nixternal> that's a first :)
[21:01] <sebsebseb> nixternal: how about in English? :)
[21:01] <pedro_> ok folks as nixternal said my name is Pedro Villavicencio I'm from the lovely Chile and I work for Canonical , my primary focus is on the Ubuntu Desktop Bugs
[21:01] <pedro_> I'll introduce you to the BugSquad and How to Triage Bugs in Ubuntu
[21:02] <pedro_> The Ubuntu BugSquad is the first point of contact for the Bugs filed in Ubuntu, we keep track of them and try to make sure that major bugs do not go unnoticed by the developers/maintainers
[21:02] <pedro_> (btw feel free to ask on ubuntu-classroom-chat i'll pick questions from there later)
[21:02] <pedro_> how we do that? We do something called "Triage" which is a pretty similar process to the one of prioritizing patients based on the severity of their condition
[21:02] <pedro_> Working with the BugSquad it's an excellent way to start helping and learn a lot about Ubuntu and it's infrastructure
[21:03] <pedro_> And No, you don't need any programming knowledge to join the team in fact it's a great way to return something to your lovely Ubuntu project if you cannot program at all
[21:03] <pedro_> There's an open team on Launchpad for the BugSquad https://launchpad.net/~bugsquad everybody can join as said it's an open team
[21:04] <pedro_> We also have a couple of IRC Channels that you might be interested on visit:
[21:04] <pedro_> Where the bugs are discussed: #ubuntu-bugs
[21:04] <pedro_> Where the new bugs are announced:  #ubuntu-bugs-announce
[21:05] <pedro_> There's also a mailing list available at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad and we use it for all kind of coordination and discussions
[21:05] <pedro_> if you want to interact with the team those are the right ways to do it
 pedro_: Question: How can we possibly deal with a large number of bugs that have been reported upstream with no action for a few years. What is a good strategy to either having volunteer or paid developers resolves these issues and propose patch
[21:07] <pedro_> well that's not easy, you can either talk with the upstream developers and let them know you concerns or provide patches to get those bugs fixed
[21:07] <pedro_> in free software the people do what they want ;-) and most of people participating on free software projects are volunteers
[21:08] <pedro_> btw there's a talk about Upstream Bug Workflow after mine you might want to bring those questions there as well ;-)
[21:08] <pedro_> ok let's go to the bug triage !
[21:09] <pedro_> The Bug Triage is an essential part of the Ubuntu's development process which consists of a few things
[21:09] <pedro_> Responding to new bugs as they are filed, if you report something you really want to get some feedback from the other side, responding to those bugs in a short period is pretty important
[21:10] <pedro_> * Ensuring that new bugs contains all the necessary information for the developers/maintainers to work on it and fix that bug
[21:10] <pedro_> This could look like normal to you and probably you do include that information when you're reporting a bug but most of the reports we got doesn't contain that information
[21:11] <pedro_> we often triage reports with summaries like "I don't know!" - "It crashed!" - " Doesn't work"
[21:11] <pedro_> which doesn't help a lot to the developers/triagers, so improving the summary is one of the things that should be done when you are fighting a bug report
[21:12] <pedro_> having one with a summary like "brasero doesn't burn if the disc title contains a & " it's way better than something like "doesn't burn"
[21:13] <pedro_> In order to get more information we have the debugging pages https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures which contains information on how to get more information for packages in Ubuntu like Firefox, OpenOffice.org, Apache, Samba, the Kernel, etc.
[21:14]  * JManGt is back (gone 00:42:59)
[21:14] <pedro_> QUESTION: How can we take care of doing a triage on a large number of new bugs without making the process seem automated, alienating and possibly invalidating or marking as a duplicate erroneously.
[21:15] <pedro_> It's all based on the experience i think, in Ubuntu we indeed triage a *lot* of bugs daily, reading those carefully and if you're in doubt of doing something the best is to ask in the #ubuntu-bugs channel to avoid that kind of problems
[21:15] <pedro_> so don't be afraid to ask
[21:16] <pedro_> Ok, so New triagers often don't really know what to ask when they are taking care of a report
[21:17] <pedro_> ie: the not described well with the "I don't know" titles or summaries, what do you ask there?
[21:17] <pedro_> maybe a "could you describe this a bit further" would help?
[21:17] <pedro_> for those kind of situations we've collecting Stock Responses
[21:18] <pedro_>  which are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
[21:18] <pedro_> if you're looking for one that you could use to grab more info well look at the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Not%20described%20well response you can copy and paste it on the bug report
[21:18] <pedro_> Another step into the Triage process is the:
[21:19] <pedro_> * Assigning bugs to the proper package
[21:19] <pedro_>  the list of bugs without a package is a bit big as today there are around ~1850 only New bug reports without a package assigned to it, http://tinyurl.com/withoutapackage
[21:19] <pedro_> Almost all the bugs on that list need to be assigned to a package (they're waiting you to assign them!)
[21:20] <pedro_>  this process is one of the easier tasks in the bug triage if you want to start doing triage you can probably start triaging them, want to know how to figure it out to which package assign the report? you can read the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage doc or ask on the #ubuntu-bugs channel
[21:20] <pedro_> QUESTION: I'm glad you brought up debugging procedures. Having dealt with users of average computing expertise,  do you find that the instructions on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures are too complicated for them, causing them to abandon the bug report rather than following through. What are you thoughts on this and how ubuntu-bug/ apport can bring automation of the debugging process?
[21:20] <pedro_> this is a really good questions
[21:21] <pedro_> It's true we get a lot of reports from users, normal users, probably not all of them know a lot of computers
[21:23] <pedro_> and probably they're not going to understand how to get send the logs of Xorg even with the instructions we provide
[21:23] <pedro_> and that's ok
[21:23] <pedro_> that's why now we have this awesome tool "ubuntu-bug"
[21:23] <pedro_> and I really, really, really, really recommend you to use it for reports bugs in Ubuntu
[21:24] <pedro_> it collects everything automatically and you don't need to worry about nothing
[21:24] <pedro_> oh well you need internet connection ;-)
[21:24] <pedro_> but yes please use the ubuntu-bug tool and also apport to send your crashes to us
[21:25] <pedro_> Let's keep going
[21:25] <pedro_> * Confirming bug reports by trying to reproduce them
[21:26] <pedro_> basically if you found a bug report that you can reproduce and the status is New then mark it as Confirmed stating on a comment why you're doing this if the report lack of information then add it and important, please do not confirm your own bug reports
[21:26] <pedro_> QUESTION: How can bug triagers use "ubuntu-bug" or another tool to have the reporter send in more information?
[21:27] <pedro_> good question, for existing bug reports you can send more information with apport-collect
[21:27] <pedro_> example: apport-collect 12345
[21:27] <pedro_> what the tool does, is to check the tasks on the bug report (12345) and run the apport hooks for that package
[21:28] <pedro_> then it will attach all the info for that report, for example the Xorg.0.log, lspci, etc, etc
[21:28] <pedro_> so if you're triaging a Xorg bug and it doesn't contain that info, ask the reporter to run that command ;-)
[21:28] <pedro_> let's keep rolling
[21:29] <pedro_> * Sending bugs to their upstream authors, when applicable
[21:29] <pedro_> * Cross-referencing bugs from other distributions
[21:30] <pedro_> those are really important tasks and as said previously, Jorge "Awesome" Castro is going to give a talk right after this one which is going to cover the Bug Upstream Workflow, if you're interested in that, stay here on the channel ;-)
[21:30] <pedro_> so we're not going to cover that now
[21:31] <pedro_> I've talked to you about some Bug Status already
[21:31] <pedro_> you've heard about "New" and "Confirmed"
[21:31] <Shriram> vow how long is the session , been running long time
[21:31] <pedro_> Shriram: like two days!
[21:31] <pedro_> They are 9 status for bug reports on Ubuntu they are:
[21:32] <pedro_> New, Incomplete, Invalid, Confirmed, Triaged, In Progress, Fix Committed, Fix Released and Won't Fix
[21:32]  * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
[21:32] <pedro_> don't be confused i know that some of you've been doing triage on Bugzilla for example and New means a totally different thing there
[21:32] <pedro_> New: means that no one has triaged or confirmed the bug yet (for the bugzilla folks UNCONFIRMED)
[21:33] <pedro_> Incomplete: means that the bug is missing some information for example a debugging backtrace of a crash or steps in order to trigger the bug (NEEDINFO on bz)
[21:33] <Shriram> pedro_: vow, obviously with breaks right ?
[21:33] <pedro_> Invalid: is set when the report doesn't have the adequate information to determine whether or not it's a bug, yes there's people reporting things like "a" and "e" on the summary or "test".
[21:34] <pedro_> Confirmed: is almost self explanatory and we talked about it previously, someone else than the reporter have the same bug
[21:34] <pedro_> remember, please, please please please do not confirm your own reports, a kitten die when you do that
[21:35] <pedro_> Triaged: status is set by a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team (will talk about it later) when they think that the bug has enough information for a developer to start working on fix the issue.
 pedro_: Dealing with Launchpad a lot in your daily bug managing tasks, you are in a key position in inproving Launchpad Bugs. Are there important changes/features you personally would like to see in upcoming revisions of Launchpad that you believe will help the bug squad.
[21:36] <pedro_> well, one of the *key* things I'd really like to see is a better (working) duplicate search
[21:36] <pedro_> often i face bugs with backtraces and there's no way to search for that on launchpad
[21:37] <pedro_> so yes that's one of the things I'd *love* to see shortly on LP
 pedro_:  you mean searching within attachments?
[21:38] <pedro_> yes and no, you can either have a page with a big text box where you could paste the backtrace and lp could return to you a list of bugs that look similar to your backtrace
[21:38] <pedro_> or yeah like a "duplicate" button next to the attachment, either case would work fine i think
[21:38]  * JManGt is back (gone 00:06:15)
[21:38]  * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
[21:38] <pedro_> but for example people report bugs with apport or they paste the backtrace on the same summary
[21:39] <pedro_> for the second case would be good to have another tool as well ;-)
[21:39] <pedro_> and you probably could use that for searching a phrase like "nautilus hangs on samba shares with blah version"
[21:40] <pedro_> the Gnome Bugzilla has something like that and it really rocks I'd encourage you to test that ;-)
[21:40] <pedro_> btw http://bugzilla.gnome.org/dupfinder/simple-dup-finder.cgi?
[21:40] <pedro_> try it later and let me know what you think ;-)
[21:40] <pedro_> ok folks let's keep going
[21:40] <pedro_> we have more status to talk about
[21:41] <pedro_> If a bug was marked as Triaged and a Developer is working on fixing the bug, that report needs to be marked as "In Progress", because there's a person working on it, If that developer committed the fix to a bzr branch the bug needs to be marked as Fix Committed
[21:41] <pedro_> and when that fix get released (a fix was upload to an official Ubuntu repository) the status of the bug is changed to Fix Released
[21:42] <pedro_> but please remember that this doesn't apply to the packages on the proposed repository, they stay on Fix Committed until they're available on the updates
[21:42]  * JManGt is back (gone 00:03:52)
[21:42] <pedro_> * Won't Fix: the status is applied when the bug fix is too controversial or when the feature that someone requested is not going to be implemented
[21:43] <pedro_> if you request something like "make rhythmbox shake when i say banshee" that is not going to happen
[21:43] <pedro_> so that bug probably would be marked as WontFix
[21:43] <pedro_> If you have been doing a lot and good work on the triage front you can apply for membership on the Ubuntu Bug Control Team
[21:43] <Sealbhach> Normal user here. I often think of reporting bugs but worried about it being a duplicate and wasting everybody's time. Do you get fed up with all the duplicate bug reports?
[21:44] <pedro_> which is a subset of the Ubuntu BugSquad and that membership allows you to change the Importance of bugs, set the "Triaged" and "Won't Fix" status and look at private bug reports
[21:44] <pedro_> Sealbhach: ask on #ubuntu-classroom-chat ;-)
[21:44] <Sealbhach> OK
[21:44] <pedro_> The importances are 6: Undecided, Wishlist, Low, Medium, High and Critical and you can read more about them at: Undecided, Wishlist, Low, Medium, High and Critical
[21:45] <pedro_> we don't have enough time so i'm not going to talk you about it, you can read the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance if have questions just ask us
[21:45] <pedro_> If you don't know on where to start doing triage we've been collecting easy tasks for you at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/EasyTasks the ones marked with green are the easiest to do and the one at red require more experience
[21:45] <hggdh> the link pedro_ meant to give you all is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
[21:46] <pedro_> yeah if you want to read more about status read the link hggdh just posted
[21:46] <pedro_> Recently we have been discussed to do a Mentorship program for the people who wants to join the BugSquad
[21:47] <pedro_> if you're looking for someone to help you out during your way trough the Ubuntu BugSquad please have a look at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors
[21:47] <pedro_> People already on the Ubuntu Bug Control team and willing to be a Mentor can also add their name to that list
[21:48] <pedro_> so find a person on the area you want to start working and contact they so you can start working together ;-)
[21:48] <pedro_> we're going to discuss all this deeper during UDS to come out with a more detailed Mentorship program
[21:49] <pedro_> Question: mentoring to join the bugsquad or the bug control team?
[21:49] <pedro_> the idea is to have more and better qualified people on the bug control team :-)
[21:49] <pedro_> One of the rocking activities on the Ubuntu World are the famous Hug Days (Bug Days)
[21:50] <pedro_> why we call them hug days? well the idea is if you triage a bug you win a hug!
[21:50] <pedro_> well virtual hug, if you're going to UDS we can hug you there as well
[21:51] <pedro_> We celebrate hug days almost every Thursday in fact today we're running a hug day based on new bugs since the Jaunty release: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090430
[21:52] <pedro_> and it was just announced that the Kernel Team is going to celebrate hug days twice a month  on Tuesdays IIRC
[21:52] <pedro_> so if you're interested on the Kernel, stay tune to announcements on that front! (yeah subscribe to the ubuntu-bugsquad mailing list)
[21:53] <pedro_> If you participate on a LoCo team... you can organize a Bug Jam!
[21:54] <jcastro> 5 minute warning!
[21:54] <pedro_> the idea is to get together with your LoCo team and start working on some of the bugs on Ubuntu
[21:54] <pedro_> it could be bugs without a package, new bugs, incomplete reports, etc
[21:54] <pedro_> if you look at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Events
[21:55] <pedro_> you'll see a good list of teams there that were signed for the Ubuntu Global Bug Jam but some others for Bug Jams
[21:55] <pedro_> the Berlin team for example is doing an amazing job on that front and they're doing 2 bugs jams a month (amazing)
[21:56] <pedro_> so more information on how to run a bug jam? sure  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RunningBugJam
[21:57] <pedro_> and again if you have doubts about anything, just talk too us trough the communications channels already described
[21:57] <pedro_> and happy triaging everybody!
[21:58] <jcastro> thanks pedro!
[21:58] <pedro_> thanks you guys for having me
[21:59] <jcastro> ok, 2 minutes and I'll get started!
[21:59] <jcastro> remember to preface your questions with QUESTION: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[22:01] <jcastro> ok, let's get started
[22:01] <jcastro> welcome to all 251 of you!
[22:01] <jcastro> My name is Jorge Castro and I will be running this next session on upstreaming ubuntu bugs
[22:02] <jcastro> So before I get into that let me explain exactly what "upstream" is and why it's important to ubuntu
[22:02] <jcastro> First off, what we call "Ubuntu" is an amalgamation of different software projects from around the free software ecosystem
[22:03] <jcastro> some of these projects include things like Firefox, GNOME, KDE, OpenOffice, and the programs that you use on your desktop or server
[22:03] <jcastro> it also includes a bunch of smaller projects most people have never heard of before
[22:03] <jcastro> Ubuntu takes all these projects, bundles them onto a CD and repositories and this is what people know as "Ubuntu"
[22:04] <jcastro> We ship Ubuntu every 6 months.
[22:04] <jcastro> Projects that ship an out-of-the-box Linux system are referred to as distributions, so Ubuntu is a linux distribution
[22:04] <jcastro> some other distributions you might be familiar with include Fedora, openSUSE, and Foresight
[22:05] <jcastro> since we ship a bunch of projects as part of Ubuntu, as users find bugs or have feature requests, they file bugs in our bug tracker, Launchpad.
[22:05] <jcastro> The responsibility of the distribution is then to ensure that these bug reports, patches, and requests find their way to the upstream project.
[22:06] <jcastro> So for example if you want rhythmbox to turn purple when it plays a certain song, this would be a feature request
[22:06] <jcastro> that we would forward to the rhythmbox project
[22:06] <jcastro> Any questions so far?
[22:06] <jcastro> Ok, moving on
[22:07] <jcastro> So as bug people like pedro triage bugs, along the line we make the determination wether the bug is an ubuntu problem that we introduced, or a problem with the upstream project
[22:08] <jcastro> we then create a link in launchpad to the bug in the upstream bug tracker so that the developers of that project can see it
[22:08] <jcastro> this can be confusing to someone who hasn't done it before
[22:08] <jcastro> so let me show you some examples
[22:09] <jcastro> First off, here are the directions from the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Watches
[22:09] <jcastro> Since "Ubuntu" is made of a diverse set of projects, each one has little differences that we document here
[22:09] <jcastro> however, the basics are the same
[22:10] <jcastro> like with all bug reports, the more clearer your description is and your followup, the better chance of it getting fixed is
[22:10] <jcastro> < YokoZar> QUESTION: It would be nice if I could filter a package bug list for ones that have upstream links and ones that don't.  It would also be  nice if I could mark a bug as something that shouldn't go upstream (since it's our bug) and thus not appear on that filter...is there a way  to do this?
[22:10] <jcastro> Interesting question.
[22:11] <jcastro> First off, we keep a report of our upstream linkages here:
[22:11] <jcastro> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
[22:11] <jcastro> This is the "Top 100" projects in ubuntu sorted by open bugs
[22:11] <jcastro> Unfortunately there's no way to arbritrarily get these numbers for any given package in the archive
[22:12] <jcastro> (however it's on the TODO)
[22:12] <jcastro> what you can do, is pick one of those projects, then click on the number, and then go back and munge the URL for your package
[22:12] <jcastro> While I have you looking at this report, this shows you how well we're linking to upstream projects
[22:13] <jcastro> so let's look at evolution real quick
[22:13] <jcastro> Right now it has 554 open bugs, 468 of which have been determined to be upstream
[22:13] <jcastro> of those 465 have bug watches in the upstream bug tracker
[22:13] <jcastro> which is good!
[22:13] <jcastro> that means that 465 of those bugs have been found upstream, and then linked.
[22:14] <jcastro> which means that we can no directly connect our bug reporters to the developers
[22:14] <jcastro> when bugs get filed in launchpad and they're not linked to upstream, they tend to languish and upstream developers have to go hunting for them, which is less than ideal
[22:14] <jcastro> ideally we are providing a service to the upstream project by forwarding good, detailed bugs.
[22:15] <jcastro> < SiDi> QUESTION: when i link a bug to an aditional project on Launchpad, i'm asked wether i have an URI/contact for upstream bug, or wether "i know  its upstream but i don't know how to link". Why is there no option to mention it's not upstream ? (might be duplicate of above)
[22:16] <jcastro> Ok, so, on any given bug in Launchpad there is a little + button and a link called "Also affects project"
[22:16] <jcastro> when you click that it asks for the URL of the upstream bug tracker
[22:16] <jcastro> the reason there is no option to upstream is because you should only open a task on a project if it's upstream
[22:17] <jcastro> so for example, if you're reporting a bug in Evolution
[22:17] <jcastro> in launchpad it shows up as "Evolution (ubuntu)"
[22:17] <jcastro> if you open a task for "Evolution" that's for evolution the upstream project.
[22:17] <jcastro> < SiDi> jcastro: my point is that if i want to register to another project for which upstream is hosted on launchpad, the fact of not having such an  option in the list of radio buttons is irrelevant
[22:17] <jcastro> oh I see
[22:18] <jcastro> right, so really, the linking works best for bug trackers outside of launchpad.
[22:18] <jcastro> I can see where that is confusing though, I will note it down and tell the bug team
[22:19] <jcastro> ok, so what does a link look like?
[22:19] <jcastro> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/188565
[22:19] <jcastro> so let's look at this bug here
[22:19] <jcastro> so mario reported this bug
[22:19] <jcastro> and as you can see in the comments, Pedro recognized that it's a problem with gnome-terminal
[22:19] <jcastro> so he added that to the comment
[22:20] <jcastro> and then clicked on "Also affects project"
[22:20] <jcastro> and then pasted the upstream bug report
[22:20] <jcastro> which is here
[22:20] <jcastro> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=514318
[22:20] <jcastro> so really, both these bugs are the same
[22:20] <jcastro> pedro just linked it in launchpad, and then when he reported it to GNOME, he linked BACK to launchpad
[22:21] <jcastro> so that the upstream developers could refer to the launchpad bug if they want
[22:21] <jcastro> the nice thing about launchpad is that it keeps track of the status in the gnome bugtracker
[22:21] <jcastro> so when the bug is marked as fixed it shows up in launchpad
[22:21] <jcastro> so that ubuntu developers can routinely search for bugs fixed in an upstream tracker, but NOT fixed in ubuntu
[22:22] <jcastro> this makes it easier for them to pull the fix back into ubuntu
[22:22] <jcastro> so if you go to the lp bug
[22:22] <jcastro> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-terminal/+bug/188565
[22:22] <jcastro> you'll see 2 rows
[22:22] <jcastro> one that says "Gnome-terminal" and one that says "Gnome-terminal (ubuntu)"
[22:23] <jcastro> one row refers to the gnome terminal in ubuntu, and the other one is gnome-terminal upstream
[22:23] <jcastro> if you see a bug where the upstream is fix released, but it's not fixed in ubuntu, then that is a prime candidate for people to fix
[22:24] <jcastro> so, the loop gets closed like this
[22:24] <jcastro> we have a tool called harvest, which culls all sorts of info, including bugs that are fixed upstream but not in ubuntu
[22:24] <jcastro> http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=evolution
[22:25] <jcastro> so in this example, for evolution we have these set of bugs
[22:25] <jcastro> you'll note too that we look for bugs closed in other distros as well
[22:25] <jcastro> there is an option in bugs to link them to other distributions
[22:25] <jcastro> so for example if I find a bug in gwibber that is fedora-specific, I can do that
[22:26] <jcastro> many times different distros see the same bug, and in order to help reduce duplication of effort lp let's you link to other distro bug trackers
[22:26] <jcastro> Another critical piece of upstreaming bugs is when patches are attached
[22:27] <jcastro> it makes no sense to fix a bug and have it stuck in ubuntu
[22:27] <jcastro> it's not fun for upstream developers because they don't get fixes
[22:27] <jcastro> and it's not fun for ubuntu developers because they have to carry a patch over time, which brings a maintenance burden
[22:28] <jcastro> so when we do merges with Debian (like we're doing with Karmic), many ubuntu developers take that opportunity to send queued up patches to either debian or to the upstream projects themselves
[22:28] <jcastro> we of course encourage this, as it's healthier for everyone involved.
[22:28] <jcastro> any more questions?
[22:28]  * jcastro let's people digest
[22:30] <jcastro> Ok, so what can you as a normal person do to help improve linkages?
[22:30] <jcastro> well, first off, as you become a more experienced triager you'll be able to kind of figure out which problems are probably an ubuntu problem, and which ones are an upstream issue
[22:31] <jcastro> One can spend hours in launchpad just looking at a bug, then opening a tab, going to the upstream bug tracker, searching for the same issue, and then finding a bug.
[22:31] <jcastro> and then you just read the comments, and then link the two together
[22:32] <jcastro> < pwnguin> QUESTION: do I need to get the project driver to inform launchpad when a project stops using launchpad for bug tracking? (example:  cellwriter)
[22:32] <jcastro> that person needs to set the project in launchpad to have it say it uses and external bug tracker
[22:33] <jcastro> or, you can let me know, and I'll do it. :)
[22:33] <jcastro> please send me a mail at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and I'll fix it up. :)
[22:33] <jcastro> by the way, a little late to mention this now, but hey ...
[22:33] <jcastro> I am the external developer relations guy for Canonical
[22:34] <jcastro> and ensuring that linkages are healthy and going to the right place is my job
[22:34] <jcastro> so if at any point you see a bug where you are confused
[22:34] <jcastro> or you see something that should be made better or fixed (like the last 2 questions), you can always get ahold of me to fix it
[22:35] <jcastro> creating this "bridge" between the end user bug report and the upstream developer is a crucial piece of ensure that free software gets better
[22:35] <jcastro> some people start small, for example this one guy andrewski stays around banshee bugs
[22:36] <jcastro> he doesn't try to forward every bug in every project in launchpad
[22:36] <jcastro> he picks a piece of software he cares about and then tries to do his best in that little area
[22:36] <jcastro> this is ideal because the sum of people taking care of little areas improves the distribution as a whole
[22:36] <jcastro> some people purposely pick obscure or neglected projects to take care of
[22:37] <jcastro> this is great too, because we can all be sure right now there are bug reports or patches rotting someplace that need to get attention
[22:37] <jcastro> part of my job is also talking to upstrems
[22:38] <jcastro> and one thing I always ask is how well our forwarded reports are
[22:38] <jcastro> in the past comments weren't so good
[22:38] <jcastro> but we are making a concerted effort to get better
[22:38] <jcastro> and lately things have been improving
[22:38] <jcastro> sometimes users might put a link in a comment
[22:38] <jcastro> for example
[22:39] <jcastro> "Hey guys, I think this is bug #123456 in KDE"
[22:39] <jcastro> but some people might not be experienced triagers
[22:39] <jcastro> or might not know that launchpad can link the bugs
[22:39] <jcastro> so I like to go over those bugs and check to make sure that it's linked, if it is indeed the same bug
[22:40] <jcastro> < pwnguin> QUESTION: should the initial reporter bear any burden on the upstream bug report?
[22:40] <jcastro> Ideally, that would be great
[22:40] <jcastro> if the reporter is experienced, I hope so!
[22:40] <jcastro> but honestly alot of people report the bug, and they might not know what to do after that
[22:40] <jcastro> so there can be some mentorship or hand holding there
[22:40] <jcastro> also, if the bug is "popular", usually it doesn't need to be the reporter
[22:41] <jcastro> one of the other people or a bug triager can handle that
[22:41] <jcastro> of course, if you do know that it is an upstream bug, you can just report the bug upstream directly
[22:41] <jcastro> what I do is right before I file a bug upstream I search launchpad as well
[22:41] <jcastro> and usually there's a dupe or something I can mark or link
[22:42] <jcastro> < pwnguin> somnoliento: what happens is i file a bug, upstream asks a question
[22:42] <jcastro> good question!
[22:42] <jcastro> usually someone will tell you to put your comments in the upstream bug
[22:42] <jcastro> or sometimes the upstream developer will comment in launchpad itself
[22:42] <jcastro> one thing the bugs people have made is a plugin for Bugzilla and Trac (available under the GPL3)
[22:43] <jcastro> that an upstream bug tracker can install
[22:43] <jcastro> this allows things like comment syncing, etc. between the upstream tracker and launchpad itself
[22:43] <jcastro> so ideally, there will be nicer collaboration with upstream bug trackers
[22:43] <jcastro> however, not all upstream projects have a bug tracker, or they might have some homegrown thing
[22:44] <jcastro> for example, vim doesn't have a bug tracker, just a mailing list
[22:44] <jcastro> so in that case we have to follow up the old fashioned way
[22:44] <jcastro> But sometimes yea, the reporter will report the bug, then disappear
[22:45] <jcastro> in that case, it's up to people like us to at least figure out what to do with it.
[22:45] <jcastro> Any more questions?
[22:45] <jcastro> < somnoliento> QUESTION: Syncing comments with upstream sounds sweet. Any major projects using it?
[22:45] <jcastro> Not in production as far as I know
[22:45] <jcastro> however our bugs people have been working with the kernel.org bugzilla people
[22:46] <jcastro> hopefully over this next cycle
[22:46] <jcastro> there is a lot of work in this area, so stay tuned
[22:47] <jcastro> the plugin is OSS, so even if you're running your own trac instance for your little project, you can take advantage of it
[22:47] <jcastro> So one other place where you can help
[22:48] <jcastro> is by trudging through the upstream bugzilla
[22:48] <jcastro> and usually, after doing bug work you kind of start to get the feel for it
[22:48] <jcastro> when you read a bug report and you'll think "hmmm, I've seen that in launchpad before" and then I go dig for it
[22:48] <jcastro> < charlie-tca> Can it be integrated to bugzilla.xfce.org?
[22:48] <jcastro> absolutely!
[22:49] <jcastro> charlie-tca: I will follow up with you after this week and link you up with the right people
[22:49] <jcastro> and like I said, you'll have better success picking something you care about (start small), and then being that bridge
[22:50] <jcastro> then, as upstream gets our bugs and patches you help them
[22:50] <jcastro> which in turn helps ubuntu
[22:50] <jcastro> this "cycle" of patches, bugs, and fixes is important to keep open and flowing
[22:50] <jcastro> regardless of what desktop or distro you use!
[22:51] <jcastro> more questions?
[22:51] <jcastro> ok, so we can bring the discussion in here now
[22:51] <jcastro> and discuss amongst yourselves. :)
[22:51] <jcastro> or maybe some experiences you've had
[22:52] <jcastro> < SiDi> QUESTION: we do need more triagers with the insane amount of bugs, don't we ?
[22:52] <jcastro> absolutely
[22:52] <jcastro> yes
[22:52] <charlie-tca> thanks a lot, jcastro. I am still learning
[22:52] <jcastro> yes, I learn with every link
[22:52] <jcastro> especially when you get one wrong. :)
[22:53] <jcastro> and the upstream is like "what is this?  :p
[22:53] <jcastro> but generally putting the right bugs in the right pile is straightforward
[22:53] <jcastro> however, it is important to know that doing something wrong can be worse than doing nothing at all
[22:53] <jcastro> so if you have any doubts, ask someone in #ubuntu-bugs
[22:54] <jcastro> I ask people stupid questions all the time, and I deal with bugs every day
[22:55] <jcastro> ok, take 5 and the next session will begin
[22:55] <jcastro> thanks so much for attending!
[22:55] <jml> aww yeah.
[22:56] <SiDi> thanks to you jcastro
[23:00] <jml> Ok, we ready to go?
[23:00] <jml> Let's start.
[23:00] <jml> Today we're talking about hosting code on Launchpad.
[23:00] <jml> As you can see by the text to left, I'm jml.
[23:01] <jml> My name is Jonathan Lange, I live in Sydney (so it's actually 8am in the morning for me) and my hobbies are drinking coffee.
[23:01] <jml> I've been working on Launchpad's codehosting system for Canonical for over two years now.
[23:01] <jml> There's so many things I could talk about today
[23:01] <jml> so please please please ask questions.
[23:02] <jml> I've prepared this session based on an imaginary version of you.
[23:02] <jml> I might have assumed that you're familiar with things you don't actually know at all; something that I think you might not know might already be old-hat to you.
[23:02] <jml> so interrupt.
[23:02] <jml> (or do the QUESTION: thing in -chat)
[23:02] <jml> Anyway!
[23:03] <jml> Someone once said that Launchpad is like a massive Open Source supermarket: You can just stroll in and pick up any project you want.
[23:03] <jml> For example, if you want to get the full version control history of the Gnome Do project, do 'bzr branch lp:do'.
[23:04] <jml> In fact, for almost any project you can think of, you can do 'bzr branch lp:<project>' and you'll get a copy of their trunk branch.
[23:04] <jml> Or if you just want to get the latest code for, say, Banshee, do 'bzr co --lightweight lp:banshee'.
[23:04] <jml> How familiar are you all with bzr?
[23:05] <jml> ok :)
[23:05] <Eveready> no familiar
[23:05] <jml> no worries, I'll talk a bit about Bazaar then :)
[23:05] <Eveready> I guess its like subversion
[23:06] <jml> Yeah, Bazaar is a version control thing like Subversion
[23:06] <Eveready> cvs checkout client
[23:06] <Eveready> Ive used those some
[23:06] <jml> The big difference from Subversion is that it doesn't rely on a central repository
[23:06] <jml> Instead of getting just the files and telling a central server about the history, you get the full history
[23:06] <jml> So you don't need "commit privileges" to hack on a project
[23:06] <jml> QUESTION:  if a package is maintained outside of launchpad, bzr branch will only get me the ubuntu/debian patches for this package, right?
[23:07] <jml> Very good question.
[23:07] <jml> There are two sorts of branches on Launchpad
[23:07] <jml> there's upstream code -- like Gnome Do, Banshee, Twisted, Bazaar itself etc
[23:07] <jml> there's also code for ubuntu packages
[23:08] <jml> so, if you branch from an upstream project, you'll actually get everything
[23:08] <jml> all the code that it's in there, that's ever been there.
[23:08] <Eveready> ok
[23:08] <jml> code for ubuntu / debian packages has kind of been a second-class citizen on Launchpad until very very recently.
[23:09] <jml> At the start of this month, we released an alpha version of support for branches of source packages
[23:09] <jml> I'll talk about that a bit later
[23:09] <jml> (last month! sheesh!)
[23:10] <jml> The platform team are working with that right now to make sure that the patches for a package are uploaded with version control
[23:10] <jml> there's a doc on a wiki somewhere...
[23:10] <jml> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/
[23:10]  * JManGt is away: Vengo al ratin...
[23:11] <jml> that talks about the plan. if you're at UDS, we'll be talking about it a lot.
[23:11] <jml> So, Launchpad is a great big open source supermarket
[23:11] <jml> For the code side of things, what we want is to give you a simple and consistent way to get the source code for every Free Software project that you can think of.
[23:12] <jml> so that you can start fixing bugs or making things better :)
[23:12] <jml> If you go to https://launchpad.net and click on the "Code" tab, you'll see a bunch of projects that use Launchpad directly
[23:13] <jml> but there are also a heap of projects that don't use Launchpad themselves
[23:13] <jml> we sync their code anyway :)
[23:13] <jml> "supermarket" is a pretty lousy term (sorry kiko!).
[23:13] <jml> A supermarket is a place where you *get* things. Launchpad is that, but it's also a place where you *put* things.
[23:14] <jml> You might you be starting your own project or already run one, and you want to use Launchpad to host it, manage it, and to link up with other, related projects.
[23:14] <jml> and with Ubuntu, of course :)
[23:14] <jml> Or you might want to patch Gnome Do or some other project that uses Launchpad
[23:15] <jml> Or you might just want somewhere to put a little script that you are working on.
 QUESTION: Does Canonical plan on ever adding support to Launchpad for a (D)VCS other than bzr? Eg. git, mercurial, darcs, etc. I don't know how wide spread bzr is outside of the Ubuntu/Launchpad circle, but offering support for other VCS would attract more users, no?
[23:15] <jml> So, we already *do* support VCS's other than Bazaar, in a sense
[23:15] <jml> you can import branches from CVS or Subversion into Bazaar
[23:16] <jml> And *right now*, other guys on the Code team are working on Git imports
[23:16] <jml> which are very very close to being ready
[23:16] <jml> on the cusp, if you will.
[23:17] <jml> Darcs? Yeah, probably what pwnguin said. :)
[23:17] <jml> Mercurial -- definitely something we're considering, and probably will do, but there are other things we want to do first.
[23:17] <ryanakca> *nod*, but say, if project XYZ had chosen the DVCS ``LMNOP'', but also wanted to use Launchpad without having to switch to Bzr, they'd be out of luck?
[23:18] <jml> Maybe.
[23:18] <jml> Bazaar is really tightly bound up with how Launchpad thinks about code.
[23:19] <jml> But with things like bzr-svn and bzr-git, maybe there's something we can do.
[23:19]  * ryanakca nods, great, thanks
 QUESTION: Wouldn't the upstream developer consider it... 'rude' if I slurp all the code for the project? like my own 'rogue' version.. ?
[23:20] <jml> most of the time, no.
[23:20] <jml> With projects that are still using SVN and CVS, it's often an opportunity to try out a next-gen version control system.
[23:20] <jml> And it's often free mirroring.
[23:20] <jml> But!
[23:21] <jml> It's always good to ask.
[23:21] <jml> Because actually more interesting than any tool is building good human-being style relationships with people in other projects. :)
[23:22] <jml> What we want for Launchpad is to be a front-end to the free software world
[23:22] <jml> so if we "Import his code and revisions... and keep tracking the project outside of its preferred environment.. using LP's bugtracker and all associated tools"
[23:22] <jml> it actually doesn't cause problems
[23:22] <jml> because we're integrating really really well with the preferred environment
[23:23] <jml> that's the extended answer to ryanakca's question too.
[23:23] <jml> So I guess I should talk about how you can actually get code onto Launchpad
[23:23] <jml> There are three ways.
[23:23] <jml> Not two
[23:23] <jml> Not four
[23:23] <jml> Three
[23:24] <jml> 1. Get us to mirror it.
[23:24] <jml> 2. Importing it from another VCS.
[23:24] <jml> 3. Pushing it yourself.
[23:24] <jml> five is right out!
[23:24] <jml> Hmm.
[23:25] <jml> So, actually the last one is the most interesting.
[23:25] <jml> I'll start with that
[23:25] <jml> If you haven't done so already, install bzr
[23:26] <jml> you might want to use this ppa: https://edge.launchpad.net/~bzr/+archive/ppa
[23:26] <jml> so that you get the latest and greatest
[23:26] <jml> Bazaar releases every month, and it's almost always best to use the latest release.
[23:26] <jml> Making a Bazaar branch is cake.
[23:26] <jml> $ cd /tmp
[23:26] <jml> $ bzr init something
[23:27] <jml> $ cd something
[23:27] <jml> $ cat > README
[23:27] <jml> Oooh look at me, I'm a README.
[23:27] <jml> (hit Ctrl-D)
[23:27] <jml> $ bzr add
[23:27] <jml> $ bzr commit -m "My first commit!"
[23:27] <jml> done.
[23:27] <jml> That's a branch.
[23:28] <jml> You don't have to use cat if you don't want to. That's me showing off leet unix skills.
[23:28] <jml> to push it up to Launchpad...
[23:28] <jml> $ bzr push lp:~jml/+junk/something
[23:28] <jml> except don't use jml
[23:28] <jml> use your own login name
[23:28] <jml> Oh actually that reminds me.
[23:29] <jml> my Launchpad login is the same as my Ubuntu login, and I've had them both for ages.
[23:29] <jml> You need to tell Bazaar, what your Launchpad login is.
[23:29] <jml> $ bzr lp-login <username>
[23:29] <jml> Also, you'll need to set up a public SSH key with Launchpad.
[23:30] <jml> if you know what that means, go to https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editsshkeys and get set up now.
[23:30] <jml> if you don't, then https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair should get you started.
[23:30] <jml> So the trick is: bzr push lp:~<username>/+junk/<branch>
[23:30] <jml> The "+junk" bit is Launchpad's way of talking about Bazaar branches that don't belong to any project.
[23:31] <jml> Generally you don't want to put anything serious there. I use it for Emacs files and little scripts and my D&D 3rd ed character generator.
[23:31] <jml> "junk" :)
[23:31] <jml> You can also push a branch to a project: e.g. bzr push lp:~jml/do/tweak-docky-animation
[23:32] <jml> This is actually one of the cool things about Launchpad
[23:32]  * JManGt is back (gone 00:21:32)
[23:32] <jml> you don't need to be an official contributor to push up branches.
[23:32] <jml> you can push to any project
[23:32] <jml> and contribute code in just the same way as a core dev
[23:33] <jml> I want to say a million things next
[23:33]  * jml picks one
[23:34] <jml> if *ever* you want to experiment with something on Launchpad, you can use https://staging.launchpad.net.
[23:34] <jml> staging has all the data that the main site has, but any changes that get made are thrown away at the end of the day -- and it doesn't send out any email.
[23:34] <jml> so you can muck around without hurting or spamming anybody
[23:34] <Eveready> thatd be fer me
[23:34] <jml> to push branches up there, use lp://staging/<whatever>
[23:35] <jml> register projects, push branches, anything
 QUESTION: We're talking only about source code here, right? not translations, for instance.
[23:35] <jml> I'm only talking about source code, yes.
[23:35] <jml> but!
[23:36] <jml> the translations guys have just made some changes so Launchpad can snarfle up .pot files from source code branches
[23:36] <jml> and I think they are working on getting .po files too
[23:36] <jml> bear in mind, I live on an English speaking island in the middle of nowhere, so my knowledge of translations is pretty dim.
[23:37] <jml> snarfle. it's a verb meaning to extract translation files :)
 i think import of .po files is live now
[23:37] <jml> rockin
[23:37] <jml> if you ask on #launchpad, you can find out more about translations and branches.
[23:38] <jml> So, another option with hosting your source code is that you can keep it on Bazaar branches on your own server
[23:38] <jml> or someone else's server
[23:38] <jml> and we'll mirror it for you
[23:39] <jml> e.g. browse to a project page or your own person page
[23:39] <jml> https://code.launchpad.net/people/+me will always redirect to your own branch page, btw
[23:39] <jml> there'll be a "Register a branch" link on the top-right
[23:39] <jml> I'm looking at https://code.staging.launchpad.net/bzr/+addbranch right now.
[23:40] <jml> type in the name of the branch, and the URL where it's hosted and click "Register"
[23:40] <jml> and that'll mirror the branch.
[23:40] <jml> (you can just use http://branch.example.com/whatever if you want to try)
[23:41] <jml> at the very top you'll see text like:
[23:41] <jml>  The resulting location of the branch will be: ~jml/bzr/whatever
[23:41] <jml> (before you hit submit, that is)
[23:41] <jml> once you've registered the mirror and Launchpad has had a chance to actually mirror it (15mins on staging, ~2-4 on the main site)
[23:42] <jml> you can go 'bzr branch lp:~jml/bzr/whatever' and get the branch
[23:42] <jml> don't worry too much about the status -- most people don't really use those.
[23:42] <jml> also, don't worry too much about "branch type". If you are at this form, you almost always want to select a mirrored branch.
[23:42] <jml> (I filed bugs about those two things while preparing this session!)
[23:43] <jml> Very quickly on importing branches
[23:43] <jml> there are projects that don't use Launchpad or Bazaar
[23:43] <jml> xchat (my IRC client of choice) is a good example.
[23:44] <jml> if you ever come across a project like that, you should request that Launchpad import it.
[23:44] <jml> browse to the project, e.g. https://code.staging.launchpad.net/xchat
[23:44] <jml> and click the "Import your project" link
[23:45] <jml> You'll need to get the version control details from the main site (google can help here)
[23:45] <jml> and as mentioned before: cvs and svn only for now
[23:45] <jml> git real soon
[23:45] <jml> mercurial later
[23:46] <jml> darcs when you need ice skates in the sahara
[23:46] <jml> Importing code from Subversion into Bazaar is an art, not a science.
[23:46] <jml> Importing from CVS is a black art.
[23:46] <jml> so we review all of the imports before we start running them
[23:47] <jml> there are some guidelines about this
[23:47] <jml> and we'll be opening those up as we get closer to open sourcing
[23:47] <jml> in the mean time, if you have any problems, ask on https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad-code or on #launchpad
[23:47] <jml> mwhudson: that right?
[23:48] <jml> ...
[23:48] <jml> silence means "yes"
[23:48] <jml> good :)
[23:48] <jml> COMING SOON!
[23:48] <jml> git imports, as mentioned before
[23:48] <jml> we'll start with small git repos and then move on up
[23:48] <jml> source package branches
[23:48] <jml> right now you can only push to:
[23:49] <jml> lp:~user/project/branch
[23:49] <jml> or lp:~user/+junk/branch
[23:49] <jml> this doesn't help ubuntu much or debian much
[23:49] <jml> very recently, we added support so that you can push to lp:~user/ubuntu/karmic/package/branch
[23:49] <jml> you can try this out on staging or the main server today
[23:49] <jml> lp://staging/~user/ubuntu/... for staging
[23:50] <jml> you can also push to lp:~user/debian/squeeze/package/branch as well
[23:50] <jml> it won't integrate well with the rest of the site, but the actual hosting of package branches is rock solid
[23:50] <jml> e.g. lp:~jml/ubuntu/karmic/pulseaudio/fix-my-headset
[23:51] <jml> the platform team are working on actually making the official branches for every source package in ubuntu
[23:51] <jml> james_w: how many is that?
[23:51] <james_w> too many :-)
[23:51] <jml> :)
[23:51] <james_w> around 16000 packages
[23:52] <jml> as that happens, you'll be able to get code by doing 'bzr branch lp:ubuntu/karmic/pulseaudio'
[23:52] <jml> that'll have all of the patches on top of the upstream tarball, right?
[23:52] <james_w> 5 branches for Debian, and up to 40 for Ubuntu per package
[23:52] <jml> !
[23:52] <james_w> yep, the result is the same as unpacking the source package, and you'll be able to see what's added in the packaging, and what's in the upstream tarball
[23:53] <jml> cool.
[23:53] <jml> man, I haven't even talked about code reviews yet
 jml: QUESTION: Does this only work for existing packages or can we also push new packages there (ie., for review before actually uploading them to Ubuntu)?
[23:53] <jml> in the initial phase, existing packages only.
[23:54] <jml> but probably in the future, new packages as well
[23:54] <jml> although maybe you'll need to register them on the website first, just like upstream projects.
[23:55] <jml> also, we really really really want to be able to make it braindead-simple to make a PPA based on a package branch-
[23:55] <jml> but part of the thing is that we don't really know what Ubuntu development will look like with every package in a branch
[23:56] <jml> so it's important that you guys try it out and prod us on #launchpad and tell us what's happening, what's working, what we should change
[23:56] <jml> oh, and contribute patches once we open source :)
 QUESTION: should I have one project for all the cool little scripts I want to be able to install through a ppa? or should I create a project for each?
[23:57] <jml> good question
[23:57] <jml> (I don't know the answer, actually)
[23:57] <jml> I'd guess that it depends on what would make your users happiest
[23:58]  * jml opens the floor
[23:58] <jml> (oh, btw, when I fix bug 345737, you'll be able to branch lp:ubuntu/pulseaudio)
[23:58] <jml> we have two minutes left
[23:58] <jml> any more questions
[23:59] <jml> hmm, so the schedule doesn't have anyone listed after this
[23:59] <jml> so, I love talking about launchpad and bazaar


[01:49] <mup> PR snapcraft#3978 closed: linters: fix classic linter interpreter warning <Created by cmatsuoka> <Merged by cmatsuoka> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/3978>
[09:15] <mup> PR snapd#12310 closed: client: remove classic check for `snap recovery --show-keys` <Simple 😃> <Needs Samuele review> <Created by mvo5> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/12310>
[09:56] <mup> PR snapd#12283 closed: tests/fakeinstaller: really use part label to find partitions <Run nested> <Created by alfonsosanchezbeato> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/12283>
[10:11] <mup> PR snapd#12309 closed: o/state: introduce WaitStatus <Created by pedronis> <Merged by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/12309>
[10:56] <mup> PR snapd#12214 closed: interfaces: Fix desktop interface rules for document portal <cherry-picked> <Created by robert-ancell> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/12214>
[16:07] <mup> PR snapd#12311 opened: many: don't reset current based on pinnedAt <Created by MiguelPires> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/12311>


[01:50] <Eickmeyer> Bashing-om: There's no way that was an intentional redirect. You might have to skip the loco event section or just populate from last week as much as possible.
[01:51] <Eickmeyer> I don't even know who to contact except maybe the Canonical Community Team in #ubuntu-community-team, perhaps fallen would know what's up.
[01:55] <Bashing-om> Eickmeyer: Recently all the LoCo pages have seen updates - I reckon loco.ubuntu.com/events/ is collateral damage.
[01:56] <Bashing-om> Eickmeyer: Lemme see if Fallon is awake :D
[01:59] <Eickmeyer> Agreed, probably just slipped through. Probably all of the wiki pages getting moved to discourse, similar issues.
[02:29] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::planet:: Alan Pope: i386 in Ubuntu won't die @ https://popey.com/blog/2023/08/i386-in-ubuntu-wont-die/
[03:38] <guiverc> Bashing-om,  I'll suggest dropping "The following LoCo team events are currently scheduled in the next two weeks: "   (makes no sense give none follow; except for reason... just have the reason I say)
[03:40] <guiverc> suggest dropping "that is, " from first Guadec 2023 event report.
[03:40] <guiverc> (gdoc not marked; yet anyway ... )
[03:42] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Yeah - will do a re-do of LoCo Events // pending if we have a resolution by the time of publishing ( still to delete the "#s" also).
[03:42] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Logging onto our WIKI - editing mode engaging :D
[03:43]  * guiverc reading wiki  (full screen... thus my chromium/oogle-editor is out of reach..why not touched)
[03:56] <guiverc> Bashing-om,  should "writes about the the new budgie 10.8 release" have Budgie in capials (other community) ??
[03:56]  * guiverc suspects it should have
[03:57] <guiverc> we're inconsistent if not change anyway; suggest capitilizing (real word?) the first 'budgie' use
[03:58] <guiverc> first "in the press" article has a `".,`  where the `.` needs removal I believe
[03:58] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Sounds reasonable to me - ooking --- and I made addition edits to the Guadec 2023 event report. See that it re4ads well now.
[04:02]  * guiverc will check shortly... still scrolling down (when not called away from terminal..)
[04:14] <guiverc> Bashing-om, ubuntu pro article; are you happy with "Pros & Cons" as written?   I'm wondering if out-of-place, and "'pros' & 'cons'" would be better... though 99% of readers won't likely notice
[04:15] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Agreed - lower case apprpriate.
[04:15] <guiverc> suggest adding a "and" after comma to  ' ", "clean-up to the AMD Zen '   (if that makes sense)..
[04:16] <guiverc> ^ me just wants an "and" between the two super-long quoted bits
[04:18] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Yup - "and" added.
[04:18] <guiverc> Bashing-om, maybe s/these, sitting/what is sitting/  for the HID Driver improvements one  (sentence reads awkardly to me)
[04:19]  * guiverc didn't get to re-visit gdoc yesterday sorry
[04:23] <guiverc> my read thu is (finally) finished, looks good Bashing-om
[04:27] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Only so much we can do with the time on Earth we are given - got to sleep sometimes :D // Additional edits made to the "HID Driver" summary, see too that you like - as well as the rewrite of Guadec 2023 event report.
[04:31] <guiverc> looks good Bashing-om (I didn't note change to Guadec one, but nothing 'screamed' as needing attention to me, and line formatting had changed I noted thus changed)
[04:32] <guiverc> thank you good Sir.
[04:33] <Bashing-om> guiverc: And thank you - I often fall so short of the glory - addle brained sometimes too :D
[04:35] <guiverc> :)   going away from keyboard (got tops of weeds to trim & other stuff in the yard that needs attention)
[04:40] <Bashing-om> guiverc: ^ these kinds of things best done while the sun shines :P
[14:42] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::omg!ubuntu:: Linux Kernel 6.5 Released, This is What’s New @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/08/linux-kernel-6-5-features
[15:42] -ubottu:#ubuntu-news- ::omg!ubuntu:: Ubuntu 23.10 Fixes Blindingly Bright Wallpaper Faux-Pas @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2023/08/ubuntu-23-10-fixes-its-blindingly-bright-wallpaper-faux-pas
[19:06] <Bashing-om> UWN: Log checked - no futher edits are known -- pulled "WIP" / LoCo Events section edited to reflect non availability. Will start the push soonest.
[19:29] <Bashing-om> UWN: M/L is away - doing the Forums posting next.
[19:45] <Bashing-om> UWN: Forums post completed - doing Discourse posting next.
[20:24] <Bashing-om> uwn: Discourse posting done - doing the Re-directs next.
[20:55] <Bashing-om> UWN: Re-directs done - doing a Mastodon blurb next.
[21:22] <Bashing-om> UWN: Blog on Mastodon done - pending now is release to the other Social Media.
[22:48] <guiverc> i'm remocing Loco (not available) line from fridge (802)
[22:49] <guiverc> https://fridge.ubuntu.com/2023/08/28/ubuntu-weekly-newsletter-issue-802/
[22:57] <guiverc> posted uwn 802 to twitter, telegram (mewe),  (skipped reddit; marked for support only posts)
[22:58] <Bashing-om> Fridge: Spot check and all looks good.
[23:00] <Bashing-om> guiverc: ^ "remocing Loco (not available) " Something that I should have done up different ?
[23:01] <guiverc> nah... I just felt the link (not available) being 'clickable' where it opened to top of page wasn't helpful - thus removed it.  (not highlighted with clickable link on fridge)
[23:04] <guiverc> I could have worked on to try and point to LocoEvents..   opted to remove; but I like what you did.
[23:05] <guiverc> I could have changed it to "https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue802#LoCo_Events" for exampl
[23:08] <Bashing-om> guiverc: The only reason I opted to keep the entry was for consistency in releases - that our readers might miss the LoCo notices.
[23:08] <guiverc> I can add the link to fridge; do you think it's better there (with link I posted ^) ? Bashing-om
[23:12] <Bashing-om> guiverc: As we have no metrics - hard to judge if the ommision is meaningful at all :( Fridge is your domain - I will acquise to your choices :)
[23:16] <guiverc> I've added the line back (with altered link) Bashing-om (look again, though may need to incognito/private etc to notice updated page)
[23:18] <guiverc> it DOES draw attention to the revitalizing effort text you wrote.  a plus with it there.
[23:20] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Looks and links good // should we now wipe away our evidence ?
[23:20] <guiverc> yep scrub away...
[23:21] <Bashing-om> guiverc: Ho-Kay - wipe/clean/rinse/repeat in process :D
[23:39] <Bashing-om> UWN: Issue803 is off and running :P


[05:12] <Guest38077> oops
[05:27] <nick_issues> how long am I going to have to wait for it to time out
[06:37] <Kilos> morning all
[06:37] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[06:37]  * Maaz washes some mugs
[06:41] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[06:41] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[06:41] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[06:43] <Kilos> later
[07:23] <superfly> hi Kilos
[07:25] <Kilos> hi there superfly dLimit and others
[07:27] <Kilos> gonna try irssi on this xubuntu as xchat is stom
[07:38] <dLimit> Goeie more
[07:38] <Kilos> dag se
[07:39] <Kilos> hi Banlam
[07:39] <Banlam> gday
[07:42] <Kilos> yay
[07:51] <Kilos> gc morning
[07:51] <gc> hi there
[08:03] <Kilos> hi nlsthzn
[08:03] <nlsthzn> Hey uncle Kilos
[08:15] <Kilos> later guys
[09:52] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[09:52]  * Maaz flips the salt-timer
[09:52] <Kilos> inetpro, hiya
[09:52] <nlsthzn> maaz should flip the coffee timer :/
[09:52] <Kilos> ha ha ha
[09:53] <Kilos> i wonder why he didnt answer you nlsthzn
[09:53] <Kilos> should must mean something else to him
[09:53] <nlsthzn> Like life I guess he has dedided to ignore me :p
[09:53] <Kilos> still no news on permit?
[09:54] <nlsthzn> nope... and today if our "Friday" if you like and I am supposed to start working again Saturday >.<
[09:56] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[09:56] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[09:56] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[10:28] <Kilos> eish nlsthzn  thats not nice
[10:28] <nlsthzn> :(
[10:29] <Kilos> is there no one you can fone to get things moving
[10:29] <Kilos> or get your works head to call the permit peeps
[10:31] <nlsthzn> :) it is now in the hands of the goverment - the Critical National Infrastructure Authority (CNIA) - Basically the army :/
[10:32] <Kilos> eish and they in no hurry if they like saudi
[10:32] <nlsthzn> I have heard horror stories...
[10:32] <Kilos> tell
[10:35] <nlsthzn> :) well I have heard of two seperate instances where guys where waiting for months to get their passes... lucky for them they where Arab (not local but still from the ME) so I am sure they will get away with it...
[10:35] <nlsthzn> for a South African I doubt I will still have a job if that happens :/
[10:36] <Kilos> eish
[10:36] <Kilos> and you not allowed to do pj's either without a permit hey?
[10:37] <nlsthzn> pj?
[10:37] <Kilos> private jobs
[10:37] <Kilos> or do pc repairs etc from home
[10:39] <nlsthzn> oh I can do what I like I guess... then again I am stuck in the middle of nowhere and there is basically nothing else to do ... lol ... oh well... I guess the wait continues and the Rum is finished @#$@#$
[10:39] <Kilos> ai
[10:40] <Kilos> that never helped anything for more than a night
[10:40] <nlsthzn> lol... but it tastes good and if you have enough it lasts many nights
[10:40] <nlsthzn> just kidding however
[10:41] <Kilos> lol
[10:41] <nlsthzn> we have been unable to get out liquor licenses as well... this company is full of ****
[10:41] <Kilos> them peeps dont drink at all i think
[10:42] <Kilos> im sure boet said alcohol was illegal in saudi
[10:43] <nlsthzn> yup
[10:43] <nlsthzn> here it is allowed
[10:43] <nlsthzn> tollerated is a better word I guess
[10:43] <Kilos> lol oh yours are the decadent ones
[10:44] <nlsthzn> they allow it for non muslims in any case :)
[11:04] <Kilos> bbl
[12:57] <zeref> hmmmm
[14:30] <Kilos> afternoon all
[14:30] <Kilos> nearly home time
[14:31] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[14:31]  * Maaz puts the kettle on
[14:34] <Kilos> hi psydroid
[14:35] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[14:35] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[14:35] <Maaz> You are welcome Kilos
[14:59] <Kilos> bb tonite
[17:57] <Kilos> eveningall
[17:57] <Kilos> sjoe disappearing space bar
[18:00] <superfly> hi Kilos
[18:00] <Kilos> hiya superfly
[18:15] <Symmetria> http://www.zastore.co.za/displays.php
[18:15] <Symmetria> should I go buy myself one of those
[18:16] <Symmetria> I really want one of those, look at the resolution, but holy shit, look at the price tag
[18:25] <zeref_debian> hmmmm
[18:26] <Symmetria> heh, seriously, thats probably the best monitor Ive seen for sale in .za
[18:29] <zeref_debian> sigh
[18:29] <zeref_debian> Symmetria: get it :)
[18:31] <zeref_debian> hmmm, everytime debian boots time starts at 18:22
[18:48] <magespawn> evening all
[18:56] <Kilos> hiya magespawn
[18:57] <superfly> hiya magespawn
[18:58] <magespawn> Whats up peeps?
[18:59] <Kilos> prices
[18:59] <Kilos> they reckon petrol going up another 64c a litre most likely so everythings prices gonna join in
[19:04] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[19:04]  * Maaz washes some mugs
[19:04] <magespawn> Well if that is not the best news I have had all day then I do not know what is.
[19:04] <Kilos> ha ha ha. you so funny at times
[19:05] <Kilos> petrol alone is on its way to crippling us
[19:06] <Kilos> otherwise the sun shone down lekker all day
[19:06] <magespawn> On the plus side, we can all get a lot fitter, and telecomute will become a way of life
[19:07] <Kilos> yeah
[19:08] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[19:08] <Kilos> otherwise xubuntu xchat still sucks
[19:08] <Kilos> Maaz, danke
[19:08] <Maaz> Bitteschön
[19:09] <Kilos> im sure there is something busted in my conf files
[19:09] <Kilos> but dpkg cant sort it either
[19:09] <Kilos> yet
[19:09] <Kilos> will fix it or die trying
[19:10] <Kilos> hows things with you magespawn
[19:11] <magespawn> Trying to get filezilla ftp server running at home
[19:11] <Kilos> why dont you use ubuntu server software
[19:12] <Kilos> is filezilla related to firefox?
[19:12] <Kilos> dunno where i got that idea
[19:14] <magespawn> I think was/is an add on for firefox
[19:14] <magespawn> This is on the windows machine but it is running apache and other open source server software
[19:15] <Kilos> and firewall and antivirus. sigh
[19:16] <Kilos> if its a local server for you ok but if you gonna let other peeps in i wouldnt trust it too far
[19:16] <Kilos> lo Banlam nuvolari
[19:18] <Symmetria> lol
[19:18] <Symmetria> my damn puppy almost broke the glass sliding door attacking a ghecko
[19:18] <Symmetria> again
[19:19] <Kilos> lol
[19:19] <Banlam> g'devening
[19:19] <Symmetria> lol, the ghecko gets on the other side of the glass and she growls and barks at it
[19:19] <Symmetria> and will sit there for hours watching it
[19:19] <Banlam> aren't animals adorable
[19:19] <Banlam> while you watch the dog
[19:19] <Symmetria> http://valhalla.clue.be/~vort/doggie4.jpg
[19:19] <Symmetria> look at that lol
[19:20] <Symmetria> I piled all sorts of shit infront of the door to stop her jumping up against it
[19:20]  * Banlam takes a pic of Symmetria watching his dog watch the gecko
[19:20] <Kerbero_> lol
[19:20] <kbmonkey> lo nuvolari Kilos Banlam Symmetria
[19:20] <Kerbero_> banlam you stalker
[19:20] <kbmonkey> Kerbero_ o/
[19:20] <Symmetria> banlam lol my dog will haunt you
[19:20] <Kilos> hi kbmonkey welcome to ubuntu-za
[19:20] <Symmetria> she's spawn of satan
[19:20] <Symmetria> :p
[19:20] <Symmetria> have you seen her spawn of satan photo?
[19:21] <magespawn> Kilos it is just for home use at the moment
[19:21] <Banlam> Symmetria, yeah saw it last night
[19:21] <Symmetria> http://valhalla.clue.be/~vort/doggie3.jpg <[19:21] <Kerbero_> hello all
[19:21] <Symmetria> hehe
[19:21] <Banlam> what's her name btw?
[19:21] <Symmetria> Morocca, she was named by her previous owner
[19:21] <Banlam> how long have you had her?
[19:21] <kbmonkey> i just boosted my wifi signal by coiling hi quality audio flex around the antenna. it works a treat
[19:21] <kbmonkey> thereifixedit :D
[19:21] <Symmetria> lol but she responds if you call her anything, she always knows when she's being called, I could stand outside and yell, COME HERE BREADBOARD and she'd still come :p
[19:22] <Symmetria> banlam only a week :)
[19:22] <Banlam> lol
[19:22] <Banlam> oh :P
[19:22] <Banlam> previous owner?
[19:22] <Kilos> hi Kerberos[home]
[19:22] <Symmetria> some chick in capetown who advertised to rehome her on gumtree :p
[19:22] <Kerberos[home]> kilos :)
[19:22] <Banlam> why did she not want her?
[19:23] <Symmetria> lol I asked the chick why she was rehoming her, she said that when she got the pup she hadnt done enough research into the breed and the dog was 2 difficult to handle and had 2 much energy to cope with
[19:23] <magespawn> And the gecko is on the outside.
[19:23] <Banlam> lol
[19:23] <Symmetria> banlam heh, she's a cross between a weimaraner and an australian kelpie, meaning that she has 2 base instincts, one is to herd things and the other is to hunt them
[19:23] <Symmetria> and she has endless endless energy
[19:24] <Kilos> open the door and teach the dog the gecko is outside
[19:24] <Symmetria> kilos haahah no, she already hunts way 2 many lizards, frogs and everything else that moves :P
[19:24] <Kilos> hehe
[19:25] <Symmetria> I scolded her for chewing on something she wasnt meant to, she went outside for an hour, came back inside with a dead bird in her mouth, dropped it at my feet and lay down with it between her paws, as some kinda "I'm sorry" gift
[19:25] <Kilos> frogs make then foam at the mouth then you think your dog is going mad
[19:25] <magespawn> Get a Jack Russell, and watch them tear the place apart.
[19:25]  * Kilos is a staffie fan
[19:25] <Symmetria> heh magespawn the difference between a jack russell and this one, a jack russell typically won't figure out how to open every door of every cupboard and the fridge :P
[19:25] <Symmetria> and is also 2 small to figure out it can jump on almost any table if there is something to steal :p
[19:26] <magespawn> Yup too small and a bit thick
[19:26] <Symmetria> had this pup 2 days and put a lock on the fridge, was the same deal with my weimaraners
[19:26] <magespawn> Very good tracking dogs used for anti-poaching
[19:26] <Kerbero[home]> weimeraners!
[19:27] <Symmetria> heh kerbero lol they are my favorite breed
[19:27] <Kerbero[home]> o
[19:28] <Symmetria> I had 2 previously before this one
[19:28] <Symmetria> except those didnt have kelpie in them
[19:28] <Kerbero[home]> hehe
[19:28] <Symmetria> lol though this pup is like 90% weimaraner, and the only kelpie bit in her seems to be her energy levels
[19:29] <Kerbero[home]> rather you than me
[19:29] <Symmetria> lol, she's awesome :)
[19:29] <Kerbero[home]> never thought about getting a cat?
[19:29] <Kerbero[home]> and taking over the world?
[19:30] <Symmetria> weimaraners are rather neurotic dogs, but their rep is just because people dont know how to handle them, they require someone who knows what they are doing
[19:30] <Symmetria> cause typically a weimaraner gets incredibly attached to its owners, and they kinda freak out if they dont get enough attention or if their owners disappear for 2 long
[19:31] <Symmetria> and when a weimaraner is bored or not getting enough attention lol, you have trouble, they will tear shit up until someone gives them attention
[19:33] <Symmetria> heh I see the gauteng municipality wants to land itself in court
[19:34] <Symmetria> for violating the ECA :p
[19:38] <Kilos> ECA?
[19:39] <Kilos> dont give me a link please
[19:39] <Kerbero[home]> i also wondered
[19:39] <Kerbero[home]> :P
[19:40] <Kilos> Symmetria, ^^
[19:40] <kbmonkey> electronic communications act Kilos
[19:40] <Kilos> ty kbmonkey you well lad. meds working?
[19:41] <kbmonkey> found it haliarious how the SOPA site used a background on their website that was not attributed to the artist
[19:41] <kbmonkey> blerrie hypocrites
[19:42] <Kilos> its like adverts. all use sexy chicks and sell completely unrelated products
[19:44] <Kilos> hilarious
[19:44] <Kilos> that looks closer
[19:44] <Kilos> Maaz, spell hilarious
[19:44] <Maaz> Kilos: Looks good to me
[19:48] <kbmonkey> clever bot
[19:52] <magespawn> How did they violate the ECa?
[19:52] <Symmetria> heh ECA = the telecommunications law
[19:52] <Symmetria> magespawn because they banned more fiber deployments in gauteng
[19:52] <Symmetria> and the ECA specifically says that any license holder has the right to lay fiber on *ANY* public land
[19:52] <Symmetria> providing that htey clean up after themselves and give reasonable notice
[19:53] <Symmetria> it is *INCREDIBLY* clear about the rights of license holders and the johannesburg municipality has no legal right to refuse anyone the right to lay fiber
[19:53] <Banlam> what are there reasons for refusing them?
[19:53] <Banlam> *their
[19:53] <Symmetria> banlam they came out and said there is a blanket modatoriam on any new fiber in joburg
[19:54] <magespawn> So the licensee can just go ahead then
[19:54] <Symmetria> that no one else other than themselves is allowed to lay anymore
[19:54] <kbmonkey> never realized there are quite a few unix shell accounts available online
[19:54] <Banlam> so their reason for this, is so the municipality can continue to lay fibre without any one lese?
[19:54] <Banlam> anyone else*
[19:54] <Symmetria> magespawn technically yes, but they could just dig it up again :P the licensees will see them in court shortly Im sure
[19:55] <Symmetria> apparently there is an urgent application for an interdict against the modatoriam being heard tomorrow in court
[19:55] <Symmetria> banlam basically thats what I believe it translates to, they arent stating what their reason is, but thats what it comes down to
[19:55] <magespawn> What a joke
[19:55] <Banlam> ic
[19:56] <magespawn> So somebodies brother can get the tender
[19:56] <Kilos> not moratorium
[19:56] <Symmetria> basically, they gonna get taken to court
[19:56] <Symmetria> and sued
[19:57] <Symmetria> and are gonna lose and get saddled with a huge bill by the courts
[19:57] <Symmetria> cause they are getting sued for lost revenue and costs
[19:57] <Kilos> Maaz, spell modatorium
[19:57] <Maaz> Kilos: Suggestions: Moratorium or moratorium
[19:57] <Symmetria> including I believe the salaries of the 4000+ people who cant work as a result of this
[19:57] <magespawn> Such a waste of time and public money
[19:58] <Banlam> what's wrong with moratorium?
[19:58] <magespawn> Bet they cannot go after the officials money directly
[19:58] <Banlam> nvrmnd
[19:58] <kbmonkey> that's some rigmarole
[19:58] <Symmetria> magespawn heh, the gauteng muncipality is going to find itself liable
[19:58] <Symmetria> heh, the costs involved in putting 4000+ people outta work for a week
[19:59] <Symmetria> are... huge
[19:59] <magespawn> Which means the gauten g public
[19:59] <Symmetria> heh, on the higher end, you're looking at 15k per person, on the low end, a grand a person, so anywhere between 10 and 100 million worth of costs right there
[19:59] <kbmonkey> do you think this would have not happend Symmetria if telecoms were privately owned?
[20:00] <kbmonkey> okay that's may be a rhetorical question ;)
[20:00] <Symmetria> kbmonkey well, a lot of telecomms is privately owned
[20:00] <Symmetria> the problem is that the muncipalities want a piece of that pie
[20:01] <kbmonkey> so I have it wrong that govt has 49% of rights in that pie
[20:01] <magespawn> Illegally
[20:01] <kbmonkey> like they always do. for the people.. like hell
[20:02] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[20:02] <Symmetria> kbmonkey yes
[20:02] <Symmetria> that is incorrect
[20:02] <magespawn> Through telkom but they r3fuse tus fiber because theymeed to recoup the cost of copper
[20:02] <Symmetria> a.) the government doesnt own much of neotel at all
[20:03] <Symmetria> and b.) the government shareholding of telkom is FAR less than 49%
[20:03] <Symmetria> its closer to like 36 I think
[20:05] <magespawn> But the
[20:05] <magespawn> Major problemis the wasting of time and money
[20:05] <kbmonkey> okay so they dropped some shares. I shouldn't blurt out old info, could be disasterous
[20:06] <Symmetria> kbmonkey they aint owned 49% for a LONG time
[20:07] <Symmetria> direct government share holding is 38%
[20:07] <Symmetria> though there is also the elephant consortium and thats where stuff gets confusing cause they own a whack of shares as well
[20:08] <Symmetria> fact is though, telkom is skirting the edges of bankcrupcy
[20:08] <Kerbero[home]> you should just go bankrupt
[20:08] <Kerbero[home]> *they
[20:08] <Kerbero[home]> wow that is a bad typo
[20:08] <Symmetria> kerbero thats distinctly possible if they are made to pay the fine they are facing
[20:08] <Kerbero[home]> o
[20:08] <magespawn> lol
[20:08] <Symmetria> they are facing a fine of almost 3.5 billion
[20:09] <Kerbero[home]> so telkom is maybe going to pay a fine?
[20:09] <Symmetria> kerbero they have already been found guilty
[20:09] <Symmetria> the only question is how big is the fine gonna be
[20:09] <Kerbero[home]> hmm
[20:09] <kbmonkey> internet revolution!
[20:09] <Symmetria> and the recommendation from the tribunal that found them guilty is around 3.5 billion rand
[20:09] <magespawn> Which will come from joe public again
[20:10] <Kerbero[home]> but i don't understand or did not follow, what is telkom guilty of
[20:10] <Kerbero[home]> except for that people out of work
[20:10] <Kerbero[home]> what did they do
[20:10] <Symmetria> kerbero anti-competitive practices in the DSL market
[20:10] <Symmetria> basically inflating the price of IPC to keep other ISP's outta the game
[20:10] <magespawn> They do not have that kind of money, do they?
[20:10] <Symmetria> well, that was the primary issue
[20:10] <Kerbero[home]> ahh
[20:11] <Kerbero[home]> ok
[20:11] <Symmetria> magespawn, heh, they USED to have that kinda money, they dont have any more
[20:11] <magespawn> And that still did not work anyway.
[20:11] <Symmetria> how it works is that the fine is based on 10% of annual revenue for the year in which hte offense happened
[20:11] <Symmetria> the year in question here happened to be before they sold vodacom
[20:11] <magespawn> Ouch
[20:11] <Symmetria> which means their annual turnover included the revenue flows from their 50% holding of vodacom
[20:11] <Symmetria> which was telkom's cashcow
[20:12] <magespawn> What are the options? Get vodacom to pay their share?
[20:12] <Symmetria> when Telkom sold off that 50% share in vodacom, they also had a TON of cash, and their shareholders wouldnt let them keep it
[20:12] <Symmetria> it was paid out by and large as a dividend
[20:12] <Symmetria> magespawn zero options there
[20:12] <magespawn> Of course
[20:12] <Symmetria> vodacom isnt liable
[20:13] <Symmetria> heh, the funny part is, Telkom had no real option but to sell vodacom, but without vodacom they are kinda screwed cause telkom made up more than 70% of their profit
[20:13] <Symmetria> but they *HAD* to sell it, that wasnt optional at all
[20:14] <Symmetria> heh you guys know the reason behind the sale of vodacom btw? the real reason?
[20:14] <Symmetria> its kinda a funny story :p
[20:14] <Symmetria> Vodacom board if I remeber correctly, was made up of 2 Telkom members, 2 Vodaphone members and 2 internal members inside Vodacom itself (or something like that, with that kinda distribution)
[20:15] <Symmetria> the guys inside vodacom decided they didnt like telkom
[20:15] <Symmetria> so they were always gonna vote with the other guys
[20:15] <Symmetria> and basically, telkom as a result completely lost all control of what amounted to most of their revenue :P
[20:15] <Symmetria> (well, thats the story out in the market, and I'd say chances are, its probably pretty accurate)
[20:16] <magespawn> Lol
[20:17] <Kerbero[home]> well done
[20:17] <magespawn> Brb
[20:18] <magespawn> Back
[20:19] <magespawn> Was 50% owned by Vodafone ?
[20:29] <Symmetria> magespawn something like that yeah
[20:31] <magespawn> Ahh well then
[20:31] <magespawn> Off to bed later all


[02:01] <a1fa> does anyone else have streamzap?
[02:01] <a1fa> my remote controler stops responding after a while
[02:02] <a1fa> there is some kind of delay
[02:02] <a1fa> you press a button and wait
[03:24] <n00dle> I'm a mythbuntu newb, but have been running linux since 1991... kinda stuck on two thing: I'm not getting any sound from my computer with mythbuntu 8.10 on an XFX 630i and after pausing and resuming watching a video, the rendering is all jumpy. Known issues?
[03:43] <hads> Since 0.01? Impressive.
[03:51] <n00dle> Yeah, started on slackware and now an ubuntu fan... well I've got to run. I'll play with this thing later.
[03:51] <n00dle> Ciao!
[03:52] <hads> Slackware was started in '93 I believe.
[05:02] <fuxxy_> hads, heh.
[05:03] <fuxxy_> hads, he must have gotten tired of chasing deps.
[05:04] <hads> I think maybe he exaggerated a bit.
[05:06] <fuxxy_> *I* started with slack.
[05:06] <fuxxy_> no idea when, it was after I graduated, and that was 99
[05:06] <hads> Yeah, I did too, around the same time. It existed then :)
[05:07] <fuxxy_> i got tired of deps, and ended up going gentoo.
[05:07] <fuxxy_> then I got more tired of deps :)
[06:15] <matt_aust> hi everyone
[06:16] <matt_aust> has module support for the Compro DVB-t300 TV Card been taken out of the latest kernel update?  as I just updated the kernel and it now no longer recognises my tv card.  Says it is card=0
[10:19] <gkasinath> happy thanksgiving everyone!
[10:22] <gkasinath> help: scan problem with fusion hdtv
[10:24] <gkasinath> uumm.. anyone?
[14:11] <minimec> Hi. I would like to replace an old bttv-device with a hybrid analog/dvb-t TV-Card in my existing mythtv configuration (the other card is a pvr-250). Have you any experience with the Hauppauge HVR-1100/1300 cards. Do these work on Hardy LTS. Is the Hauppauge HVR-900 (usb) an alternative?
[17:33] <MythbuntuGuest24> i have put a .avi file in the video directory via samba, but when i go into "watch video" in the menu, it says there are no files. i have checked via the terminal and the file is there.
[18:49] <evaryont_> is it possible to run the last step of the installer at a later point in time? Specifically, I'd like to run the MythTV setup later.
[18:56] <laga> evaryont_: yes
[19:30] <evaryont_> the remote control script configuration dialog seems to have hanged - I clicked "Apply" and it goes through to about 90%
[19:30] <evaryont_> and...stpos
[19:30] <evaryont_> *stops
[19:43] <laga> hum
[19:43] <laga> can you reproduce that problem?
[19:44] <evaryont_> actually, I'm running this setup on a Dell G260 and it's getting a blinking amber light! :(
[19:46] <laga> what does a blinking amber light mean?
[19:46] <evaryont_> well, I dunno, but it's a bad thing :P
[19:47] <evaryont_> the computer isn't booting
[20:19] <wolf_> Hey, I am trying to compile ffmpeg from source to get nuvexport working.  I was following this guide https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ffmpeg. But I am getting make: /version.sh: Command not found make: *** No rule to make target `config.mak'.  Stop. when i try and make
[23:17] <wolf_> anyone in here installed ffmpeg from source?


[20:10] <cluelessperson> I'm here because someone suggested this was the place to discuss this interesting conversation. :P
[20:12] <cluelessperson> While I understand the want for a productive decorum, I don't view a community as particularly "open", "shared", or "welcome" if it acts to prevent users from acting well, human.
[20:12] <cluelessperson> I believe in being respectful towards people in general, but also that we are human and not coldly calculating machines.
[20:13] <CarlFK> cluelessperson:  feel free to propose changes to the Guidelines
[20:17] <cluelessperson> CarlFK, I don't know if I have any valid suggestions formed yet.  That's why I wanted to discuss the ethics. :P
[20:17] <cluelessperson> On one end, you are right to maintain a decorum, to correct people's language.
[20:18] <cluelessperson> On the other end, people should be free, as long as that freedom does not "hurt" others.
[20:19] <hggdh> not quite so: what is seen as freedom for some can bee seen differently to others. This is why you have the guidelines, and CoC (which you should now have the links to)
[20:20] <cluelessperson> hggdh, I think many people are poor with communication, and often lack the ability to separate their ego/internal bias from reality.  (not that I'm pointing at any of you here, ha)
[20:20] <hggdh> the whole idea of a code of conduct (and guidelines) is to make clear what a community accepts or not. It may not match your idea, or somebody else's idea of freedom, or CoC, or whatever else; but it is how that community works
[20:21] <hggdh> I understand, and this is why we try to steer you to the right path (as far as the #ubuntu* namespace/community is concerned)
[20:21] <cluelessperson> hggdh, well, that's also what I mean.  You say "community", but those guidelines are often written by a single person somewhere near the top.
[20:23] <el> those guidelines have been broadly edited by quite a few people over the past decade.
[20:23] <hggdh> not the case here. Both the CoC and guidelines have been worked on by many different people
[20:23] <el> some of whom were not 'near the top'.
[20:23] <cluelessperson> hggdh, This is why I enjoy this sort of conversation so much.  It's also an authoritative analysis of conducting a society.   :P
[20:23] <cluelessperson> ha, ignorance on my part!
[20:24] <el> the language clause is complicated, because if we describe exceptions then people will put in effort to fit them in a way that matches the wording not the spirit of the rule.
[20:25] <el> at the same time, sometimes people will cite the rule in terms of the wording not the spirit of it. this is probably one of those cases. i'd have preferred if it hadn't been cited, but doing so was technically valid.
[20:25] <cluelessperson> el, I have several communities I administrate (not that I mean to claim any authority)
[20:26] <cluelessperson> While I often establish guidelines, they're usually frames as an abstract of "attempting" to maintain a productive atmosphere.
[20:27] <el> indeed, and people are free to criticize
[20:27] <cluelessperson> el, Yes, that's a perfect example.  "well, technically I am following the rules"  "but you're also purposely being rude"
[20:29] <el> in this case you're asking for us to censor someone who spoke based on their correct interpretation of a rule that we find necessary to have in its current form but which was probably not cited in the most appropriate circumstance.
[20:29] <CarlFK> cluelessperson:  for some foo about where things come from:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam#Our_work
[20:34] <cluelessperson> btw, I largely agree with your work here, and it's very nice.
[20:34] <cluelessperson> I just find the conversation interesting, and applicable to other contexts.  I'm not meaning to be critical of your work. xD
[20:37] <cluelessperson> hm.  I have much about it I want to discuss, but I don't want to imply that my thoughts pertain to any perceived abuses on your parts. xD
[20:37] <cluelessperson> So this probably isn't the place. :)
[20:37] <cluelessperson> Do you know of a place better suited for this sort of conversation?
[20:39] <el> the main thing is, nobody's going to ban over the use of "wtf" unless it becomes excessive, and actual ops will give warnings before going that far for something that's not urgent. the rule's there to set expectations, and this also means that people will have those expectations and some will be more nitpicky about rules than others. doesn't mean you can ignore them or be rude to them, and as was already
[20:39] <el> stated an expectation against using cusswords should not change the content of your speech and is thus not actual censorship.
[20:41] <el> as much as you'd like to discuss it, i'm not keen on doing so further because i don't feel like being quoted out of context.
[20:44] <cluelessperson> sure.
[20:44] <cluelessperson> Thanks regardless. :)