[00:22] <BenC> apw: Two patches sent to mailing list
[07:55] <apw> BenC, thanks
[08:33] <AceLan> apw: Hi, is there a wiki page describes the SRU kernel release schedule? I would like to know when I'll have a fixed (proposed) kernel if I submit a SRU now.
[08:33] <apw> AceLan yeah there is, hang on
[08:52]  * AceLan is trying to find the reset button on apw, looks like he hangs
[08:52] <apw> AceLan, i am more going a bit mad trying to find it :)
[08:52] <apw> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
[08:53] <apw> that is part of the story, what is currently where and verified
[08:53] <apw> plus ...
[08:54] <AceLan> hmm
[08:56] <apw> AceLan, the other part i get as email and in the IRC report, but i suspect it is also out there somewhere too
[08:57] <apw> though this cycle does not appear to have beeen announced
[08:59] <AceLan> apw: are there dates about the SRU freeze, testing, and release?
[09:00] <apw> AceLan, yes there are
[09:00] <AceLan> apw: on wiki? or only in email?
[09:01] <apw> i am sure it is in the wiki, i cannot find it right now there, the latest dates were in the transcript of yesterdays meeting which is on email
[09:01] <apw> and normally he emails them to kernel-sru-announce but does nto appear to have done so this cycle
[09:01] <apw> bjf, ^
[09:03] <AceLan> apw: ok, please keep an eye on it, if you found the wiki, please let me know, thanks
[09:04] <apw> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-sru-announce/2014-April/000015.html
[09:04] <apw> so that was the announce for the previosu cycle
[09:05] <AceLan> apw: cool, I'll keep an eye on that list, thanks
[09:05] <apw> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2014-April/038262.html
[09:05] <apw> that second one has the announced dates per our meeting yesterday
[09:06] <AceLan> apw: thanks a lot
[09:07] <apw> BenC, that makes things much happier ... thanks
[11:12] <BenC> apw: Excellent
[12:18] <ppisati> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/u-boot-linaro
[12:18] <ppisati> it's in main and it's available for T
[12:18] <ppisati> _but_
[12:19] <ppisati> wget http://ports.ubuntu.com/dists/trusty/main/binary-armhf/Packages.gz
[12:19] <ppisati> zgrep "Package: u-boot" Packages.gz
[12:19] <ppisati> Package: u-boot
[12:19] <ppisati> Package: u-boot-tools
[12:19] <ppisati> no u-boot-linaro there
[12:19] <ppisati> why?
[12:19] <ppisati> and indeed, mt lb build complains:
[12:20] <ppisati> e.g. E: Unable to locate package u-boot-linaro-omap3-beagle
[12:20] <ppisati> *my
[12:20] <ppisati> probably #ubuntu-devel was more appropriate, but anyway
[12:21] <ppisati> infinity: can you help me here? ^
[12:24] <apw> the binaries are all called u-boot-linaro-* ... hmmm
[12:25] <apw> what section are they in though
[12:25] <apw>  u-boot-linaro                    | 2012.08.2-ubuntu1 | trusty/universe  | source
[12:25] <apw> ok this is all in component universe, so you have the wrong Packages.bz file
[12:26] <ppisati> doh
[12:26] <ppisati> Component:*
[12:26] <ppisati> main
[12:27] <apw> apw@bark:~/plusone$ zgrep "Package: u-boot" Packages.gz
[12:27] <apw> Package: u-boot-linaro-ca9x4-ct-vxp
[12:27] <ppisati> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/u-boot-linaro
[12:27] <apw> Package: u-boot-linaro-efikamx
[12:27] <apw> Package: u-boot-linaro-highbank
[12:27] <apw> [...]
[12:27] <ppisati> *actual publishing details may vary in this distribution, these are just the package defaults.
[12:27] <ppisati> ah
[12:28] <ppisati> bloddy asterisk :)
[12:28] <ppisati> *bloody
[12:28] <ppisati> well, in saucy was in main
[12:28] <ppisati> it was moved to universe in T
[12:29] <ppisati> (/me is blackbelt in finding excuses...)
[12:29] <apw> yep, rmadison is your friend there
[12:29] <ogra_> you are italian ...
[12:31] <ppisati> soooo
[12:31] <ppisati> lb needs a fix
[12:31] <ppisati> ubuntu-server)
[12:32] <ppisati> ...
[12:32] <ppisati> COMPONENTS='main'
[12:32] <ppisati> that's why it was working before
[12:32] <ppisati> ok
[12:37] <ppisati> ogra_: shhht... i'm "fixing" your rootstock-ng
[12:37] <ogra_> heh
[12:43]  * ppisati go grab a kebab...
[13:12] <ppisati> uhm
[13:12] <ppisati> E: Handler silently failed
[13:12] <ppisati> E: config/hooks/100-preinstall-pool.chroot failed (exit non-zero). You should check for errors.
[13:18] <infinity> ppisati: Oh dear, are you trying to resurrect the icky server preinstalled images?
[13:22] <ppisati> infinity: yes and no - i'm trying to teach rootstock-ng to build ubuntu images for arm boards but in the mean time i need a woarking target for lb thus i'm picking ubuntu-server
[14:49] <sconklin> so apw I should be able to run the latest 'current' image on trusty?
[15:34] <apw> yes, it is built with utopic's config but i am running that here
[16:01] <ppisati> root@luxor:/build# cd chroot
[16:01] <ppisati> root@luxor:/build/chroot# cat etc/apt/sources.list
[16:01] <ppisati> root@luxor:/build/chroot# ls -la etc/apt/sources.list.d/
[16:01] <ppisati> total 8
[16:01] <ppisati> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Apr 10 13:10 .
[16:01] <ppisati> drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 4096 Apr 30 12:43 ..
[16:01] <ppisati> root@luxor:/build/chroot#
[16:01] <ppisati> that might be a problem...
[16:08] <rtg> apw, shall I grab the powerpc64-emb patches ?
[16:26] <apw> i have applied them ?
[16:26] <apw> rtg,
[16:26] <apw> unless that doesn't mean the 2 benc sent this morning
[16:26] <apw> and they work too
[16:28] <apw> rtg, and i switched the base version to 3.15 cause we were still making binary packages with 3.14 as the name
[16:28] <rtg> apw, nm re: powerpc. I just forgot to update.
[16:28] <apw> ahh
[16:31] <niluje> where and when the /run is mounted?
[16:31] <ogra_> in the initrd
[16:31] <rtg> cking, uploaded sysvinit_2.88dsf-41ubuntu7
[16:31] <ogra_> first thing it does
[16:32] <cking> rtg, /me tries it
[16:32] <rtg> cking, it'll take a bit to percolate into the archive
[16:32] <cking> doh, too eager is me
[16:33] <ogra_> niluje, /usr/share/initramfs-tools/init
[16:33] <niluje> hm
[16:36] <niluje> thansk ogra_
[16:51] <niluje> ogra_: are you sure?
[16:51] <niluje> isn't it mounted by init?
[16:51] <niluje> my problem: I create a process in the initramfs that I want to exclude from the killing process of init when the system reboots or shutdowns
[16:52] <niluje> I need to write the PID of the process in /run/sendsigs.omit.d/
[16:52] <apw> so can't that process put itself in there ?
[16:52] <niluje> nope
[16:53] <apw> why so
[16:53] <niluje> the process is nbd-client and is used to mount the rootfs
[16:53] <niluje> at the time the process is created /run doesn't exist yet
[16:53] <apw> why not?
[16:53] <niluje> ?
[16:53] <apw> i thought we mounted /run on the initramfs /
[16:53] <niluje> because init hasn't been called?
[16:53] <apw> and real / on /root
[16:54] <apw> and then move mounted /run into /root before pivoting into it
[16:54] <apw> so if you are staring it before mounting real / you must have it in the initramfs and thus after the /run is made
[16:55] <niluje> hm
[16:55] <niluje> calling "mount" after the rootfs is mounted doesn't list the /run
[16:55] <niluje> (in the initramfs)
[16:56] <apw> check out cat /proc/mounts, i'd not trust mtab
[16:56] <niluje> mtab?
[16:56] <apw> mount just tells you what mtab the userspace copy of the mount table says
[16:57] <apw> and that is often a lie in this two roots sceario
[16:57] <niluje> ok
[16:57]  * niluje still has a lot to learn :p
[16:57] <apw> but if you look at the initrd /init which is just a shell script, it mounts /run
[16:58] <niluje> http://pastebin.com/W6jij8dD
[16:58] <apw> and then we do this to move it into the real root before pivot
[16:58] <apw>         mount -n -o move /run ${rootmnt}/run
[16:58] <niluje> seem to be the same
[16:58] <apw> where in the initramfs handling are you doing this
[16:59] <apw> and actually what release
[16:59] <niluje> scripts/init-bottom
[16:59] <niluje> ubuntu 14.04
[16:59] <apw> as we mount /sys /proc /dev/pts and then /run
[17:00] <apw> and during init-bottom it is mounted still and not yet moved
[17:01] <niluje> wait
[17:01] <niluje> I think I just understood something I should have known :p
[17:01] <niluje> where is the move from /root/run to /run and from /root to / ?
[17:02] <apw> /run is on /run in the initramfs and your root is /root
[17:03] <apw> last thing we do is move mount /run to /root/run (so the files stay in there)
[17:03] <apw> and chroot into /root (approximatly)
[17:03] <niluje> hm ok
[17:04] <niluje> so in what hook should I put the nbd-client pid in /root/run/sendsigs.omit.d/ ?
[17:04] <apw> you hsould put it in /run/sendsigs.omit.d/ in init-bottom
[17:04] <apw> and that will be /run on the real root "later"
[17:04] <apw> in theory
[17:04] <niluje> ok
[17:05] <niluje> cannot it be done sooner than init-bottom?
[17:05] <apw> i thought that was where you started the thing
[17:05] <niluje> sorry, we misunderstood
[17:05] <niluje> I start the process in scripts/local-top
[17:05] <apw> /run should be there for all of the hooks by the looks of it
[17:08] <apw> niluje, i am confused if i boot this machine here and 'break=bottom' i can see /run mounted in /proc/mounts
[17:15] <niluje> :/
[17:17] <xnox> cking: got down to the installer issues - efibootmgr upstream are working on supporting/generating entries for 1.1a devices, and i've sent patch for grub-mkdevicemap to colin which makes ubiquity/d-i just work with current efibootmanager and 1.0 devices.
[17:17] <apw> rtg, just pushed and aufs update, seems to work again
[17:17] <cking> xnox, cool, and I now have some working H/W again
[17:17] <xnox> cking: grub fix is not in utopic/trusty yet, but once it's in utopic i'll Shepard it for SRU to trusty.
[17:18] <xnox> cking: oh, excellent =)
[17:18] <cking> xnox, ping me when it's ready to test and I'll get around to it
[17:18] <cking> Asap
[17:18] <xnox> cking: cool!
[17:18] <cking> xnox, I spent most of this afternoon breathing life back into my setup,  had various firmware issues and a dead box that wouldn't boot, so this is quite timely :-)
[17:32] <xnox> cking: since grub is actually part of life-fs / debian-installer, and is executed from /target, i have no easy way for you test this until we spin an image with fixed up grub.
[18:46] <infinity> ... why do I seem to need to pass "nolapic" on my kernel cmdline to boot a trusty kernel in qemu/kvm?  I must be doing something wrong.
[18:46] <infinity> Cause otherwise everyone would be complaining.
[18:48] <rtg> infinity, hmm, I run trusty kernels all the time using virt-manager on a trusty host (though I'd better re-check that just to be sure)
[18:50] <rtg> yup, works fine
[18:50] <infinity> rtg: I wonder if maybe grub2 pulls some magic here.  I needed "nolapic" to boot it raw with -kernel and to boot it from grub1 (don't ask).
[18:50] <infinity> rtg: Can you confirm that a raw boot with -kernel vmlinuz-3.13.0-24 also fails for you?
[18:50] <infinity> rtg: Cause if not, I'm doing something odd.
[18:50] <infinity> (Also -enable-kvm -cpu host)
[18:50] <rtg> I've just got grub-pc
[18:51] <infinity> Maybe setting the CPU emulation lower would also "fix" it.
[18:51] <rtg> copy host CPU configuration ?
[18:57] <infinity> rtg: "-cpu host" is that, yes.
[19:00] <infinity> rtg: http://lucifer.0c3.net/~adconrad/Screenshot%20from%202014-04-30%2012:59:35.png <-- That's what I see if I boot without nolapic.
[19:01] <infinity> rtg: (Well, what I really see is that it reboot there and loops, but the tail end of my qemu commandline prevents that)
[19:04] <rtg> infinity, is this a new qemu in utopic ? looks like slightly different versions between trusty and utopic. I assume trusty _used_ to boot without the APIC setting ?
[19:05] <infinity> rtg: This is the trusty one.
[19:05] <infinity> Well, trusty-updates/uptopic-release, same version.
[19:06] <infinity> Maybe the one in -proposed fixes this. :P
[19:06]  * infinity upgrades to see.
[19:06] <rtg> I'm just running tip of trusty -updates
[19:06] <infinity> Right, so same version as me.
[19:07] <infinity> I'm on utopic, but that shouldn't matter here.
[19:08] <apw> rtg, are you running a 3.13 kernel, or some home brew
[19:09] <rtg> apw, stock trusty
[19:10] <rtg> 3.13.0-24-generic
[19:11] <apw> not that then
[19:13] <infinity> Very confusing, this is.
[19:13] <infinity> I'd like to at least see if someone else can reproduce it so I know I'm not crazy. :P
[19:13] <infinity> I suppose it may be specific to my hardware.
[19:13] <apw> as you are passing through your cpu, yes
[19:13] <infinity> But weird that I can boot my actual laptop fine without nolapic, and then the KVM-emulated version of same doesn't work.
[19:14] <infinity> apw: Yeah, I tried with a more generic -cpu and same issue, though.
[19:14] <infinity> (But -enable-kvm in both cases)
[19:17] <infinity> ... and if I disable KVM, and feed it a -cpu that should be 64-bit, it tells me it's not.  Man, I love qemu.
[19:18] <infinity> Oh, FFS>
[19:19] <infinity> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 25 Feb  9  2013 /etc/alternatives/qemu -> /usr/bin/qemu-system-i386
[19:19] <infinity> THANKS HALLYN.
[19:19] <infinity> rtg: Fixed by running qemu-system-x86_64
[19:19]  * infinity sighs.
[19:19] <infinity> How the heck -i386 "works" when I pass through my host CPU and turn off local APIC, I don't know.
[19:19] <infinity> But x86_64 works better. :P
[19:20] <infinity> hallyn: Why is the default qemu alternative on amd64 pointing to i386?
[19:20] <rtg> infinity, i386 likely doesn't have an APIC. I wonder how you got linked to the wrong binary ?
[19:21] <infinity>   4            /usr/bin/qemu-system-i386           20        manual mode
[19:21] <infinity>   24           /usr/bin/qemu-system-x86_64         10        manual mode
[19:21] <apw> how the heck did we manage that
[19:21] <infinity> Because i386 has a higher prio.
[19:22] <apw> yeah but how the heck did they not have the same... sigh
[19:22] <rtg> rtg@gbyte:~/linux/linux-firmware$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/q*
[19:22] <rtg> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 25 Mar  3 17:26 /etc/alternatives/qemu -> /usr/bin/qemu-system-i386
[19:22] <infinity> They shouldn't be the same, x86_64 should be 20 on amd64 and 10 on i386, and vice versa on the other.
[19:22] <infinity> But they sure aren't.
[19:22] <infinity> hallyn: Plsfix.  I just wasted precious time thinking I was crazy.
[19:23] <rtg> infinity, note that I _only_ have i386, which doesn't make sense
[19:23] <infinity> rtg: Hrm?   :P
[19:24] <rtg> infinity, that is possible. I never use qemu from the CLI
[19:24] <rtg> (too lazy)
[19:25] <rtg> qemu-system-x86 must have both arches ?
[19:26] <infinity> It does, yes.
[19:26] <infinity> Which means its postinst needs to be more clever about the alternatives.
[19:27] <infinity> Cause the "qemu" binary is effectively useless.
[19:27] <infinity> Though, fun to see that a 686-class motherboard with my i7 CPU jammed in "works" with nolapic. :P
[19:29] <infinity>       # Set i386 as highest priority,
[19:29] <infinity>       # as it has been the default qemu for quite some time.
[19:29] <infinity>       case $arch in i386) prio=20;; *) prio=10;; esac
[19:29] <infinity> And evidently, this is intentional.
[19:30] <infinity> </3
[19:30] <rtg> seems like most folks using qemu are also likely to be running a 64bit host
[19:31] <rtg> these days
[19:31] <infinity> Well, I'd contend that the priority should just be set to match userspace.
[19:31] <infinity> So, people like Colin would get the wrong one.
[19:31] <infinity> But everyone else would get what they expect.
[19:31] <infinity> (Colin runs i386 userspace on amd64 kernels)
[19:31] <rtg> seems reasonable
[19:51] <hallyn> infinity: mjt feels pretty strongly about noth aving that be doen as an atlernative
[19:52] <infinity> hallyn: Bleh.
[19:52] <hallyn> not sure if there is a better way to get waht we really want...
[19:52] <infinity> hallyn: That makes /usr/bin/qemu pretty much useless to most 64-bit users.
[19:52] <infinity> hallyn: And certainly surprisingly confusing.
[19:53] <infinity> hallyn: Having /usr/bin/qemu be a wrapper that checks the running kernel (not userspace) and picks the most appropriate emulator as default would probably actually be the best.
[19:53] <hallyn> i thought /usr/bin/qemu hadn't existed for awhile already.  i dont' have it in precise
[19:53] <infinity> hallyn: I have it in trusty/utopic...
[19:53] <hallyn> /usr/bin/kvm is arlready a wrapper, though not as smart as thought
[19:53] <hallyn> as that*
[19:56] <hallyn> infinity: shall i revert the removal oft the alternative?
[19:56] <infinity> hallyn: Err, it wasn't removed?
[19:56] <hallyn> i think actuall colin's case might be an example of where it *is* an alternative,
[19:56] <infinity> hallyn: I've done nothing special here, your postinst sets up this alternative.
[19:56] <sconklin> stgraber, arges that kernel crash in conntrack is also reproduceable on Linus's tip
[19:57] <arges> sconklin: cool did you get a reliable reproducer and/or crashdump?
[19:57] <hallyn> infinity: aiui the whole point is that the alternatives are *removed* in utopic;
[19:57] <hallyn> or, did i not take that change?  i thought i rejected it for trusty, and i haven't knowingly taken it for u
[19:58] <infinity> hallyn: utopic and trusty are the same version...
[19:58] <infinity> hallyn: And in both cases, the alternative is there.
[19:58] <infinity> hallyn: And pointing to i386 on my amd64 system.
[19:58] <hallyn> well, there's a one-lien change in utopic, probably still in -proposed
[19:58] <infinity> hallyn: Hence my incredible confusion.
[19:58] <hallyn> hm
[19:58] <hallyn> then i don't know whence the change
[19:59] <sconklin> arges: we have a reliable reproducer but it's not very portable outside our environment. I pasted all the stack traces into both the Ubuntu and kernel.org bug reports. If you have anything you want us to try, we can probably do it
[19:59] <hallyn> (meaning it's inadvertant)
[20:01] <hallyn> ok, so postinst-in has
[20:01] <hallyn>       # Set i386 as highest priority,
[20:01] <hallyn>       # as it has been the default qemu for quite some time.
[20:01] <hallyn> which i seem to recall being the case even prior to precise...
[20:02] <infinity> hallyn: Sure, it's entirely possible I've never run "qemu" on this machine before now. :)
[20:02] <infinity> hallyn: Doesn't change that the default being something that can't boot my arch is rather surprisingly confusing.
[20:03] <hallyn> ok - sorry i thought you were saying something had changed
[20:03] <infinity> hallyn: No.  I don't think anything's changed, I just think it's wrong.
[20:03] <hallyn> so it soudns like the best way forward is in fact to proceed with dropping the /usr/bin/qemu alternative, andwrite an intelligent wrapper
[20:03] <hallyn> mjt agrees with you :)
[20:04] <hallyn> heck i dno't knwo when it was introduced, bc indeed precise does nto have it (which is why my box doesn't have /usr/bin/qemu)


[00:02] <somethinginteres> Hi all, following this guide (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApacheMySQLPHP) I have setup a lamp server on my Ubuntu Desktop. Unfortunately when running "index.php" Firefox asks me to download the file. I have followed the basic troubleshooting suggestions in the guide with no luck. Ideas?
[00:07] <l0n> somethinginteres: check the section titled: "Checking PHP 5 installation"
[00:09] <l0n> somethinginteres: woops missed the last part you said, ok check the apache config and provide a link to a paste binned copy in here
[00:11] <somethinginteres> l0n: thanks for your offer to help. It seems restarting apache may have fixed it. I am brand new to using servers and such so I had no idea how to do that.
[00:11] <somethinginteres> l0n: yep all working. Phew
[00:12] <l0n> somethinginteres: good stuff :)
[00:13] <somethinginteres> l0n: while I am here may I ask how I can make it so my non root user account can add and remove files from /var/www?
[00:14] <l0n> somethinginteres: well you can change the permissions of the directory but I would suspect that it's not good practice to do so
[00:15] <somethinginteres> l0n: understood. So how do people usually add and remove files from their test servers just running their editors as root?
[00:17] <l0n> somethinginteres: I am by no means an expert on these sorts of things but this guy sounds like he's onto something: http://serverfault.com/questions/6895/whats-the-best-way-of-handling-permissions-for-apache2s-user-www-data-in-var
[00:18] <somethinginteres> l0n: sounds good for just a local testbed. Thanks.
[00:43] <doommaster> I did a plain Ubuntu install on a system which contains a RAID, the OS is on a non RAID HDD now the system does not boot when any of the raid hdds are installed it marks the raid degraded and breaks the init nevertheless there is nothing needed on there and the system boots just fine when the RAID hdds are disconnected wtf is wrong? natty booted just fine
[00:48] <doommaster> so there is no way to boot my system as long a a degraded raid is connected?
[00:48] <doommaster> this must be a bug
[01:14] <druonysus> I am sshed into a system at my datacenter... I was there earlier and realized I left myself logged in that the terminal befor disconnecting the crash cart. Is there a way I can kick myself off tty1?
[01:15] <twb> druonysus: pkill -u druonysus ?
[01:16] <druonysus> and if I am logged in on ssh with that same user will I lose that connection too?
[01:16] <druonysus> I mean, that's not a big deal I just want to know what to expect really
[01:17] <twb> Regarding RAID, there is an option "bootdegraded" that determines whether the system will pivot_root from ramdisk to upstart -- if bootdegraded is not set, booting will drop to a shell at that step if the array is degraded.
[01:17] <druonysus> twb: no that only killed the ssh session and not the tty1 session
[01:17] <twb> I *believe* bootdegraded is off by default; you can simply pass it on the boot: prompt
[01:18] <twb> druonysus: then you're logged in as someone else, or pkill is racing the wrong way :-/
[01:18] <twb> druonysus: in any case, killing off the appropriate process should suffice
[01:19] <doommaster> twb: hehe that would be toooo easy
[01:20] <doommaster> the raid won't mount with that option
[01:20] <doommaster> it seems broken since there is only 1/10 disks
[01:20] <druonysus> twb: thank you, I just killed the bash session that was on tty1
[01:20] <druonysus> thanks
[01:22] <twb> You lost 9 out of ten disks?
[01:23] <doommaster> yes
[01:23] <doommaster> :)
[01:23] <doommaster> anyways the raid is broken and thusly the os wont boot!!?
[01:24] <doommaster> that is not rally a good solution
[01:24] <twb> doommaster: um, in a RAID 5?
[01:24] <doommaster> raid6
[01:24] <twb> You're fucked
[01:24] <doommaster> I know the other disks are just not avail atm
[01:24] <doommaster> they will be back soon ;)
[01:24] <twb> RAID6 only has two parity drives, if you lose more than two drives your array is GONE
[01:24] <doommaster> no worry about the data
[01:24] <twb> Oh, I see.
[01:24] <doommaster> I know about that
[01:25] <doommaster> it is just the fact, that the OS will not boot anymore because it somewhat assumes the RAID is needed to boot
[01:25] <doommaster> which is BS
[01:25] <twb> OK, do this:
[01:25] <twb> doommaster: boot with "break" in boot:.  That will drop you to the ramdisk
[01:26] <twb> doommaster: now, manually assemble only the arrays you need.  Likewise LVM.
[01:26] <doommaster> hmm yhea it boots into busybox atm
[01:26] <doommaster> but since the box is unattended
[01:26] <twb> doommaster: finally, mount the root filesystem on /root and hit ^D to log out
[01:26] <doommaster> no option
[01:26] <twb> That should drop you into a working system with the least hassle
[01:26] <twb> doommaster: no physical access?
[01:26] <doommaster> I can only rtemotly access the machine
[01:26] <doommaster> jepp
[01:26] <doommaster> I need a working sshd
[01:26] <doommaster> so the system must boot first
[01:27] <twb> Then you're buggered unless you have ILO or a really clever monkey
[01:27] <doommaster> and it did in older versions of Ubuntu
[01:27] <doommaster> it is just since 11.10 that it won't
[01:27] <twb> Once it's back up, there is an mdadm boot-time option along the lines of "try to assemble all arrays" or "only the following arrays <...>"
[01:27] <twb> I can't remember the details exactly, but that's where I'd be looking
[01:28] <doommaster> once it is back up all 10/10 disk will be there and it will work fine for the moment
[01:28] <doommaster> but it is no condition that a broken raid will brak the bootup
[01:29] <doommaster> the assumption that md0 is needed is just plain wrong
[01:29] <doommaster> if it was on fstab ok, then it would be needed
[01:30] <twb> fstab can't be read at that tmie
[01:30] <twb> the data is coded into the ramdisk's mdadm.conf
[01:31] <twb> That in turn is the contents of mdadm.conf as at the last time the ramdisk was compiled; if you messed with mdadm since then it will be wrong
[01:31] <twb> And as I said, it is probably in the default "assemble everything up front" mode
[01:47] <doommaster> twb: the mdadmconf is empty
[01:47] <doommaster> I never put anything in there
[01:47] <doommaster> I already did an uptate initramfs
[01:48] <twb> Hum
[01:49] <twb> If there is nothing in mdadm.conf it shouldn't try to assemble anything
[01:49] <twb> By which I specifically mean /etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf within the ramdisk (*not* the root filesystem).
[01:51] <twb> http://paste.debian.net/152097/ <-- example
[01:52] <twb> Caveat -- I suppose ubuntu may have fucked it up since 10.04; if so I wouldn't know
[02:29] <doommaster> twb: it does an mdadm examine and autmatically builds raids now
[02:29] <doommaster> not only based on mdadm.conf
[02:30] <twb> Well that is bullshit
[02:30] <doommaster> which also is the mechanism which fails then -.-
[02:30] <doommaster> twb: seems so -.-
[02:30] <twb> I bet that was added by ubuntu, not debian
[02:30] <doommaster> hmm dunno but it seems debian too ;)
[04:22] <China_Jobs> how can you enable a ubuntu server to use a gui while connecting via ssh?
[04:23] <China_Jobs> currently its only running through bash
[04:23] <vagothcpp> China_Jobs, are you wanting a gui on your server
[04:24] <China_Jobs> now yes
[04:24] <vagothcpp> China_Jobs, Is the server internet connected?
[04:25] <China_Jobs> yes, Im able to connect with putty
[04:25] <qman__> in short, it requires installing a lot of software and is generally a bad idea
[04:25] <qman__> the better question is _why_ do you want a gui
[04:25] <vagothcpp> China_Jobs, Read https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI
[04:26] <qman__> it won't make administering your server any easier, since all the tools you administer it with are command-line utilities anyway
[04:26] <twb> China_Jobs: are both ends of the SSH connection running ubuntu?
[04:27] <qman__> there are good reasons to do it, but the vast majority of people who ask that question don't have a good reason
[04:28] <China_Jobs> right now im using an opensuse box in city A and the server is ubuntu in city B.   An issue has come up, staff can't load files to a database, which besides pissing  me off is also stopping work.
[04:28] <qman__> and even beyond that, you shouldn't do it unless you fully grasp the security implications and know how to write a good firewall
[04:30] <twb> vagothcpp: that is an excellent article; pity I can't add it as an infobot entry to ubottu
[04:30] <China_Jobs> having chosen to use kde on my box, I know zip about ubuntu except for using it 4 years ago
[04:31] <qman__> indeed it is
[04:31] <vagothcpp> twb, and why is that?
[04:31] <twb> "may introduce unwanted DNS conflicts with a .local domain."  :-P
[05:26] <SpamapS> Darkwing: definitely!
[05:26] <SpamapS> mtaylor: aren't you headed to LCA?
[05:26] <mtaylor> SpamapS: oh, so you get to go to budapest but UDS has to be in Oakland?
[05:26] <Darkwing> SpamapS: Sweet, I'm working as staff this year. You still have that Oneiric T-shirt? :P:P
[05:26] <mtaylor> SpamapS: yup
[05:26] <SpamapS> mtaylor: haha yeah, Oaktown up in the hizzy
[05:27] <Darkwing> Yeah... Oakland vice San Fran? Really?
[05:27] <SpamapS> Darkwing: sadly I do, it sits on my bookshelf mocking my forgetfulness
[05:27] <samba35> i am trying to installed pop/imap using nginx on ubuntu 10.04 when i use
[05:27] <SpamapS> mtaylor: at least its not Santa Clara...
[05:27] <Darkwing> SpamapS: I'll be in LA on thursday. :)
[05:27] <mtaylor> SpamapS: yup. leaving for Oz tomorrow
[05:27] <Darkwing> For the weekend.
[05:27] <samba35> wget http://ppa.launchpad.net/nginx//ubuntu/dists/lucid/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz
[05:28] <mtaylor> SpamapS: well, sure. it's also not in Detroit... but isn't this the European turn for UDS?
[05:28] <samba35> it give error but when i use nightly it download file
[05:28]  * mtaylor grumbles and bitches
[05:28] <samba35> wget http://ppa.launchpad.net/nginx/nightly/ubuntu/dists/lucid/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz
[05:29] <Darkwing> It's spring in Silicon Valley... Whos who is there every spring.
[05:29] <SpamapS> mtaylor: I think the desire was to give silicon valley a chance to show up.
[05:30] <mtaylor> SpamapS: sigh. silicon valley can come to the fall one - OR - they can fly somewhere which isn't f-ing Bay Area like the rest of us
[05:30] <SpamapS> mtaylor: also with the whole TV/tablet/etc. thing, this will allow Japanese and Taiwanese mfgr's easier access.
[05:30] <mtaylor> oh great
[05:30] <mtaylor> that makes me so happy
[05:30] <Darkwing> mtaylor: I was pushing for San Diego :P
[05:30] <SpamapS> San Diego was very close.
[05:30] <mtaylor> Darkwing: honestly, I would have been more on board for that
[05:30] <SpamapS> Apparently they just wouldn't budge on the cost of hotel rooms.
[05:30] <Darkwing> mtaylor: So would I... I live here :D
[05:31] <SpamapS> mtaylor: also I think there's an interest to change the order a bit so we are in Europe in the fall for a few years.
[05:31] <mtaylor> SpamapS: AH - ok, I was afraid we were going to do Oakland and then go back to Orlando
[05:31] <SpamapS> Part of the reason its always somewhere different is so it is convenient for different people each time.
[05:32] <SpamapS> mtaylor: jesus god no please
[05:32] <SpamapS> mtaylor: I don't think we've done anything to deserve Orlando... ever again.
[05:32] <Darkwing> I don't like Orlando either.
[05:33] <mtaylor> SpamapS: yeah. that was my concern. I thought we'd all of a sudden become all-US or even all-bay-area and I was going to cry
[05:35] <SpamapS> Darkwing: Orlando's mother doesn't even like Orlando.
[05:36] <Darkwing> SpamapS: Yeah... It's too humid and very very expensive.
[05:37] <SpamapS> and a **** hole
[05:37] <Darkwing> Heck, Riverside would be better.
[05:38] <SpamapS> Um, no
[05:38] <SpamapS> almost, but no. ;)
[05:38] <Darkwing> ;) I grew up there. :P:P
[05:38]  * Darkwing still votes for San Diego
[05:41] <vagothcpp> !ubottu
[09:18] <hallyn> stgraber: jjohansen: is there anything we should be talking about today?
[09:38] <samba35> how to i check which application is been monitor by apparmor
[10:14] <spajderix> hi
[10:21] <JonathanRW> if i setup a kerrighed cluster, would i be able to setup apache and mysql on it and have it be able to use the cpu and memory on each node as if its one big smp machine?
[10:54] <stgraber> hallyn: http://paste.ubuntu.com/802799/
[12:36] <samba35> i tryed to start apache2 but it give me errror
[12:36] <samba35> Could not open config directory /etc/apache2/mods-enabled: Permission denied
[12:43] <SpamapS> samba35: how did you try to start it?
[12:44] <samba35> command line
[12:44] <SpamapS> samba35: please be more specific
[12:45] <samba35> SpamapS, sorry , /etc/init.d/apache2 restart
[12:45] <samba35> when i run this command i am getting this error
[12:46] <_ruben> sudo
[12:46] <Jeeves_> samba35: Run 'ls -al /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/' and pastebin the output?
[12:46] <samba35> ok
[12:46] <Jeeves_> Oh, sudo, good one :)
[12:48] <samba35> http://pastebin.com/zZ8ePN54
[12:48] <samba35> please check
[12:49] <samba35> apache was working but with synaptic i try to installed some more packages after that i mess it
[12:51] <lx-berlin> hi all, i did setup a local ubuntu server (for the first time) with a software raid1.  1 of the 2 harddrives gets repeatedly removed from my raid1. So it seems that this disc is faulty. but can someone tell me if these smart information look fine or bad: http://pastebin.com/1Txby5WG
[12:52] <SpamapS> samba35: did you run it with sudo ?
[12:53] <samba35> yes
[12:56] <lx-berlin> noone familiar with reading the hdd smart information?
[12:56] <SpamapS> sam/win 7
[12:56] <SpamapS> doh
[13:05] <lxx> this is a sad channel. no help no nothing. even though there are 280 user in here
[13:09] <doommaster> lxx: you did not even ask a question :P
[13:14] <hallyn> stgraber: thx
[14:53] <macnix> is there an option for apt-get to not overwrite existing config files for a package without prompting? I can see the --assume-yes option, but not the opposite
[15:11] <samba35> if i have to setup a reverse proxy on apache2 which file i suppose to edit/configure
[15:22] <samba35> http://pastebin.com/L0CwypZ2
[15:31] <CharlieSu> Anyone ever use the alternateCD to install via a USB stick?  I'm getting errors when doing F6 and trying to specifiy my own seed file.  it doesn't like to USB media and keeps looking for a CDROM drive.  any ideas?
[15:50] <hallyn> zul: http://people.canonical.com/~serge/netcf-merge
[15:53] <hallyn> zul: http://people.canonical.com/~serge/debdiff
[16:19] <samba35> in redhat there is option with rpm -c to check config files of pack is there any command with dpkg or apt ?
[16:29] <roaksoax> samba35: you mean what files does a deb package has?
[16:29] <roaksoax> samba35: dpkg -c blablabla.deb
[16:32] <samba35> when we install any package with apt-get install then do we install .deb?
[16:32] <samba35> sorry very basic question
[16:53] <pmatulis> samba35: yes, you install a package when you install a package.  see /var/cache/apt/archives
[16:54] <samba35> ok
[16:56] <pmatulis> samba35: btw, doing 'sudo apt-get clean' should empty that directory
[16:57] <samba35> ic
[16:57] <samba35> pmatulis, do you have any idea on apache reverse proxy
[16:59] <RoyK> samba35: I use squid for that
[17:00] <samba35> i have 2 systems @ home 1 is ubuntu server 10 and 1 box is utm
[17:01] <samba35> utm is unified threat managment i use ubuntu as a dmz and i want to setup reverse proxy so i can add another layer of security to web server and content security to web pages
[17:02] <samba35> RoyK, do you have time to tell me what i should do to configure squid
[17:10] <axisys> I am stuck here after upgrading the kernel from 2.6.32-36 to 2.6.32-37 on lucid 64bit
[17:10] <axisys> http://pastebin.com/MGWYZfvd
[17:10] <axisys> any idea how to fix it?
[17:14] <axisys> booting back to 2.6.32-36 works fine
[17:28] <pmatulis> axisys: please open a bug
[17:29] <axisys> pmatulis: need help with that
[17:29] <axisys> pmatulis: in the meantime I posted it in ubuntu mailing list as well
[17:29] <pmatulis> axisys: what m/l?
[17:30] <axisys> ubuntu-users
[17:31] <pmatulis> axisys: try https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
[17:31] <axisys> pmatulis: ok
[17:31] <pmatulis> axisys: actually, that's not the right place
[17:32] <axisys> so kernel-team is not the right place?
[17:32] <pmatulis> nah
[17:33] <pmatulis> axisys: try ubuntu-server i guess
[17:34] <axisys> k
[17:35] <pmatulis> axisys: but most importantly, file a bug
[17:35] <pmatulis> axisys: command line only environment?
[17:36] <axisys> pmatulis: lucid server
[17:36] <axisys> pmatulis: so yes
[17:37] <pmatulis> apport-bug --save /tmp/report.bug linux
[17:37] <pmatulis> transfer report.bug to a desktop system
[17:38] <pmatulis> then 'apport-bug report.bug'
[17:38] <axisys> pmatulis: ok
[17:38] <axisys> pmatulis: thanks a lot
[17:38] <pmatulis> np, hope it leads to something good
[17:39] <pmatulis> axisys: if that method falls to pieces then: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+filebug
[17:40] <axisys> pmatulis: hehe.. thanks
[18:13] <axisys> pmatulis: apport bug asking question..
[18:13] <axisys> *** How would you categorize this issue?
[18:14] <axisys> is it kernel config
[18:14] <axisys> i am not sure..
[18:14] <axisys> so just say I don't know ?
[18:14] <axisys> pmatulis: http://pastebin.com/J6QKpKKZ
[18:15] <pmatulis> axisys: sure, kernel config
[18:15] <axisys> pmatulis: ok
[18:17] <axisys> appport-bug crashed
[18:17] <axisys> http://pastebin.com/WiNbtezd
[18:17] <axisys> I guess I will do it in that ur
[18:17] <axisys> url
[18:18] <pmatulis> axisys: i've seen this error before
[18:19] <pmatulis> hmm, supposed to be fixed, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apport/+bug/626215
[18:20] <pmatulis> ah, in natty only
[18:20] <pmatulis> axisys: the last comment proposes a w/a
[18:27] <axisys> how do I comment attach_alsa(report) in python? does it honor # or should I do '''...''' ?
[18:28] <axisys> '''..''' did it
[18:29] <axisys> worked
[18:29] <axisys> pmatulis: thanks
[18:31] <axisys> pmatulis: apport-bug report.bug did not work.. Package report.bug does not exist
[18:33] <axisys> I scp'd the report.bug file into my laptop running ubuntu oneric and then ran that command
[19:05] <axisys> submitted bug Bug #916175
[19:08] <doommaster> hm wired
[19:08] <doommaster> why is openssl so slow on my new FX-6100 with AES-NI?
[19:08] <doommaster> only about 766MB/s on a 6Core machine (-multi 6)
[19:09] <eagles0513875> hey guys how can i reset my cobbler's password?
[19:12] <eagles0513875> !cobbler
[19:13] <doommaster> ahhrg -evp braucht man für die engine :P
[19:13] <doommaster> dann schaufelt er 2,3GB/s
[19:13] <eagles0513875> O_O
[19:22] <axisys> pmatulis: looks like type exit at (initramfs) boots to the OS fine
[19:22] <axisys> odd!
[19:28] <pmatulis> axisys: add to bug for sure
[19:28] <axisys> pmatulis: yep. add that to the bug https://launchpad.net/bugs/916175
[19:32] <ChmEarl> doommaster, try again with perl , Math::BigInt::GMP and gmp libs
[19:37] <pmatulis> axisys: you are being asked for more info on the bug
[19:37] <axisys> pmatulis: ok
[19:38] <doommaster> ChmEarl: as saod -evp is needed and bumps the speed up to 2,3GB/s
[19:38] <axisys> pmatulis: run that from server?
[19:39] <axisys> pmatulis: or can I run it just from my laptop ?
[19:43] <axisys> put some comment. also changed the status to confirmed
[19:49] <axisys> FATAL: Error inserting ipmi_si (/lib/modules/2.6.32-37-generic/kernel/drivers/char/ipmi/ipmi_si.ko): No such device
[19:49] <axisys> where can I get that module
[19:49] <axisys> can't run ipmitool w/o it
[19:55] <axisys> submitted a bug Bug #916200
[19:59] <axisys> previous kernel has this module
[19:59] <axisys> /lib/modules/2.6.32-36-generic/kernel/drivers/char/ipmi/ipmi_si.ko
[20:00] <pmatulis> axisys: should be confirmed when *other* users see the same issue
[20:00] <axisys> ok
[20:02] <axisys> wait! modinfo ipmi_si gives lots of output
[20:02] <axisys> hmm..
[20:02] <axisys> how do I load a module?
[20:02] <pmatulis> using modprobe
[20:02] <axisys> isn't it modprobe module_name?
[20:03] <pmatulis> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/lucid/en/man8/modprobe.8.html
[20:03] <axisys> find /lib/modules -type f -name "ipmi_si.ko" finds it
[20:03] <axisys> /lib/modules/2.6.32-37-generic/kernel/drivers/char/ipmi/ipmi_si.ko
[20:03] <axisys> so it is there
[20:23] <axisys> 2.6.32-37-server's ipmi_si works fine but 2.6.32-37-generic's ipmi_si fails to load
[20:26] <pmatulis> axisys: asking for info again...
[20:26] <axisys> pmatulis: i have two bugs now .. hehe
[20:35] <pmatulis> axisys: you're a lucky man
[20:35] <axisys> lol
[21:57] <druonysuse> is there a command I can run the check to temperature of my servers?
[22:02] <axisys> sensors
[22:02] <axisys> druonysuse: ^
[22:17] <druonysuse> axisys: that is the command I can use?
[22:17] <axisys> yep
[22:17] <axisys> as long as the lm-sensors pkg is installed
[22:18] <druonysuse> it is not installed
[22:18] <druonysuse> I dont think I should try to install it on this old 8.04 box
[22:18] <dvance> hello, I have a peculiar problem, possibly a bug.. with server 11.10 it boots to a black screen with a single blinking cursor in the top left corner. No login prompt nothing, sits there for hours. now if I hit ctrl+alt+f1 it takes me to tty1 and everything seems normal
[22:18] <axisys> druonysuse: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SensorInstallHowto
[22:19] <druonysuse> I just don't want to introduce another variable when we are already haveing issues with it
[22:19] <dvance> does it with both, 64bit pxe install and 32bit iso install
[22:19] <dvance> if someone could just point me in the right direction, perhaps a bug report I was unable to find...
[22:20] <axisys> dvance: may be you are doing console=ttyS0 during boot ?
[22:21] <axisys> dvance: can you pastebin /etc/default/grub ?
[22:21] <dvance> one moment, thank you for the help
[22:21] <axisys> install pastebinit pkg and then cat /etc/default/grub | pastebinit
[22:23] <axisys> dvance: I am sorry but I have run or I will miss my bus .. I am sure someone here will help you sooner or later
[22:23] <dvance> well thank you.. it's a place to start
[22:26] <dvance> http://paste.ubuntu.com/803510/
[22:57] <doommaster> ChmEarl: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoZ-nhkm1T8ndDFPNjJUNGtqTkVLdnQ0dEJPalR2eXc
[22:58] <doommaster> those are my results on aesni
[22:58] <doommaster> about 4GB/s of md5 hashing :P
[22:58] <doommaster> and 2-3GB/s aes-cbc
[23:07] <dvance> figured it out
[23:09] <dvance> grub.cfg had 'vt.handoff=7' boot option, which would explain the blank screen with blinking cursor since this is a server and doesn't have X11 installed
[23:09] <dvance> thanks for the help axisys
[23:09] <dvance> I'll file bug if one isn't already


[01:35] <nhandler> Unit193: What do you check for with your link check? Just that there are no broken links and that they appear to actually go to the correct article?
[01:37] <Unit193> nhandler: Nothing quite as fancy, just that they aren't broken (informs about timing out too, but those we ignore as usually they come back.)
[01:38] <nhandler> Unit193: Is it an automated check or manual?
[01:39] <Unit193> nhandler: Small script I have, `linkcheck https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue432` and away it goes.  I'm sure there's far better, some might be in the repos, but this works for my needs.
[01:41] <nhandler> Hmm...If you add it to the UWN repository, I can add it to the publish script (so it will warn the publisher about any bad links)
[01:44] <Unit193> Could be annoying, there's been 3 "broken" for however long I've been doing this.  The wiki links to a couple Ubuntu subsites that don't support HEAD.
[01:45] <Unit193> (Also I'd encourage you to write something better, I'm sure with your abilities it'd not be hard to get better than mine. >_> )
[01:46] <Unit193> http://www.ubuntu.com/community, http://www.ubuntu.com/support, and http://www.ubuntu.com/partners to be precise.
[01:50] <nhandler> Unit193: Well, you could always commit it. Then anyone can submit improvements to it. We can also set it to just warn about issues but not block publishing (at least until we fix the issues)
[03:30] <pleia2> Welcome to the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter, Issue 432 for the week August 24 - 30, 2015 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue432


[01:31] <pem725> anyone available for a quick question?
[01:31] <pem725> NickServ
[01:34] <pem725> anyone available for a quick question?
[15:08] <willvdl> hey guys
[15:09] <juliux> hey willvdl
[15:09] <willvdl> has anyone built edubuntu from a minimal ubuntu install?
[15:12] <willvdl> I've got a lovely little atom minibox thingy here with a 2G flash etc. and am trying to build up a minimal system before going through the hog of choosing select packages
[15:12] <willvdl> so I use the alternate CD and do a command line install for a minimal system
[15:12] <willvdl> but the debootstrap complains like a mother-in-law
[15:13] <willvdl> a standard install works fine though. both are from a USB CDROM
[15:39] <willvdl> weird. not a repeatable problem
[15:39] <willvdl> how odd
[16:06] <LaserJock> ogra: heah, I applied for ~edubuntu-bugs, when you get a chance can you let me in? :-)
[16:40] <willvdl> LaserJock, ola
[16:40] <LaserJock> hi willvdl
[16:41] <willvdl> I'm playing with a very nice teeny atom
[16:43] <willvdl> it's hawt
[16:43] <LaserJock> sweeeet
[16:45] <willvdl> dual core as well
[16:45] <willvdl> anyhoo
[16:45] <LaserJock> heh
[16:45] <willvdl> they are tiny
[16:46] <willvdl> the controller chip is bigger than the cpu
[16:46] <willvdl> the cpu doesn't even have a fan
[16:46] <LaserJock> interesting
[16:47] <willvdl> if this thing works it will be the ultimate classroom PC... waterproof, heatproof, shatterproof etc.
[16:47] <willvdl> it's encased in anodised alluminium with heat tubes
[16:47] <LaserJock> lol
[16:47] <willvdl> it is honestly submersible
[16:48]  * LaserJock wants one
[16:48] <LaserJock> how chemical resistant would it be?
[16:48] <willvdl> depends. what eats alluminium?
[16:49] <willvdl> I know children that are undernourished will eat many things but they probably lack the gum strength to chew through this
[16:50] <LaserJock> hmm, some acids might do some damage, but mostly it'll eat the anodization off
[16:50] <willvdl> I remember an experiment in school
[16:50] <willvdl> with an alluminium pencil sharpener
[16:50] <willvdl> and a pot of steam
[16:51] <willvdl> and a great erupting fireball
[16:51] <LaserJock> way cool
[16:52] <willvdl> ooh ooh. anyone played with DRBL?
[17:05] <willvdl> LaserJock, are you familiar with Scientific Linux at all?
[17:06] <LaserJock> I know of it, I've never used it though
[17:06] <LaserJock> it's never been all that appealing to me
[17:07] <willvdl> hmm, seems to be rhel
[17:07] <willvdl> but I haven't seen an app list
[17:08] <willvdl> just curious cause they are mentioned from the clonezilla docs
[17:09] <LaserJock> it's basically taking rhel and recompiling it (ala CentOS)
[17:10] <LaserJock> but packing all the science related packages on a DVD
[17:11] <willvdl> deja vu
[17:14] <willvdl> right. I'm hungry and I have a chicken.
[17:14] <willvdl> later
[19:48] <Lns> Wow
[19:48]  * Lns just finished reading the (aging) thread from the list entitled "Edubuntu 7.10 - A Released Debacle and a Practice in Failure"
[19:48] <Lns> Although I disagree with the title
[19:49] <Lns> I think this topic is something that is pure gold to what we're all trying to accomplish
[19:49] <Lns> if anyone wants to start a conversation based on that thread go ahead - otherwise i'll keep working :)
[19:49] <Lns><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[19:52] <LaserJock> Lns: go on? :-)
[19:53] <Lns> LaserJock: well, I see the people who have replied and posted in that thread
[19:53] <Lns> And I see that we all have the same motivation to do the right thing and get Edubuntu/UbuntuLTSP absolutely rock-solid in typical setups.
[19:54] <Lns> What I see is the overall issue of how bugs are handled - and not to say LP fails, but IMHO there needs to be much more of a hierarchy, a better priority system for issuing these bugs
[19:54] <Lns> Such as the gnome-watchdog, hanging procs issue that's been happening for over a year now
[19:55] <Lns> IMHO this should have been implemented, tested and put into 8.04LTS.
[19:55] <Lns> But, this is even too specific for the conversation I want to have with the posters/other interested parties
[19:56] <LaserJock> well
[19:56] <LaserJock> the biggest problem has consistently been manpower
[19:56] <Lns> exactly
[19:56] <Lns> and i think i might have a solution for that.
[19:56] <LaserJock> and getting upset with the people who *do* contribute is not a way to excite people about more contributions
[19:56] <Lns> though it might have been thought of before
[19:57] <Lns> LaserJock: i agree 100%
[19:57] <LaserJock> so while it's good to talk about what we can do better, some of the tone of that thread was disappointing, IMO
[19:57] <Lns> I feel like I want to start a team of LTSP-specific techs, coders and administrators so we can closely collaborate on issues, bugs and questions we have so that fixes get pushed faster. But, again, the issue is manpower.
[19:57] <Lns> So
[19:57] <Lns> obviously, there are a lot of for-profit companies and budget-oriented entities (school districts, govt offices) that *can* contribute money to fixing problems.
[19:58] <Lns> I, for one, am a two-man company that is contracted by places like this to implement LTSP into places like schools
[19:59] <Lns> If there was a "pool" of sorts, almost like a NPO or something similar, smaller companies like me could "contribute" money so that programmers can work to fix these bugs full-time.
[19:59] <Lns> I have no doubt at all that there are plenty of companies/entities that would be willing to contribute as I am.
[19:59] <LaserJock> I'm not sure if that'd really do much
[20:00] <LaserJock> although I think it could be nice in terms of promotion, i.e. having money available for promoting Edubuntu/LTSP
[20:00] <Lns> Go on..if the issue is manpower, how is this not a viable solution?
[20:00] <LaserJock> because money quite often isn't the issue
[20:01] <LaserJock> it's a community, not a business
[20:01] <Lns> so what's the issue?
[20:01] <Lns> in regards to manpower
[20:02] <LaserJock> well, generally I think you need things like direction, a RoadMap, and an environment that is healthy for community collaboration, contribution, and expansion
[20:03] <LaserJock> you need to have leadership, consistency, and vision
[20:04] <LaserJock> with a relatively small, niche group like Edubuntu it can be difficult to get people
[20:04] <Lns> I think that Edubuntu/UbuntuLTSP has a pretty big user-base
[20:05] <Lns> Maybe the main problem is the current structure itself?
[20:05] <Lns> *How* expansion happens, *how* direction is established, etc?
[20:05] <LaserJock> well, it's a fairly large user-base, but IMO it's a bit different user-base than what Ubuntu as a whole has
[20:06] <LaserJock> I think in general Edu work is not a sexy for developer types
[20:06] <Lns> correct
[20:06] <Lns> but...developers will happily code for money when community contribution isn't desired
[20:06] <Lns> and said code can be given to the community in the end, anyway
[20:07] <LaserJock> the point of Ubuntu and Edubuntu is to have a community project
[20:07] <Lns> I see that as a repetitive issue with F/OSS in general
[20:07] <LaserJock> paid solutions, while appealing in the short term, do not help community issues
[20:08] <Lns> why does code contributions, whether paid or not, *not* help the community issues?
[20:08] <Lns> s/does/do
[20:08] <LaserJock> because it tends to stifle community contribution
[20:09] <Lns> it does?
[20:09] <LaserJock> i.e. "oh, you have to be a paid person to work on Edubuntu?"
[20:09] <LaserJock> or "oh, well I'm paid to implement this so you should find something else to do"
[20:09] <Lns> but there are plenty of people who *are* paid to contribute already
[20:09] <LaserJock> or "well, I don't have time to build community, I have to get this code working"
[20:10] <LaserJock> yes, but it only seems to work out well if you significant community components already there
[20:10] <Lns> I don't see how getting issues resolved and bugs fixed has anything to do with building a community - they seem to be separate functions of the overall goal
[20:11] <Lns> whether someone is paid or not shouldn't have anything to do with it
[20:11] <LaserJock> so fixing "we lack people" problems by paying people to do work can end up harming more than helping
[20:11] <LaserJock> ah, but they aren't separate functions
[20:12] <LaserJock> so I would say, yeah, it's cool to have people paid to work on Edubuntu
[20:12] <LaserJock> but it won't solve manpower issues in the long run
[20:12] <Lns> wouldn't you think that the more people contribute, regardless of their personal motivation, it will help the community grow?
[20:12] <LaserJock> nope, not exactly
[20:13] <LaserJock> paid people contribute what they're paid to contribute
[20:13] <LaserJock> and it quite hard to convince the people paying that community building is worth the money
[20:13] <Lns> I see it as worth it
[20:13] <LaserJock> so you might make good advances in the bug-fixing arena and have a dead community in the end
[20:14] <Lns> hmm
[20:14] <LaserJock> but for me the point is that we don't *need* paid people
[20:14] <LaserJock> it's great to have them around, no doubt
[20:15] <LaserJock> but I have confidence in community
[20:15] <Lns> but as the way it is now, there are so many unfixed bugs that the community only fixes the ones they want to fix / have time to fix
[20:15] <LaserJock> if the community contains paid elements then great
[20:16] <LaserJock> and that's fine
[20:16] <LaserJock> pain points lead to people who want to scratch itches
[20:16] <LaserJock> if people seriously don't have enough interest in fixing bugs then what's the point?
[20:17] <LaserJock> and this is where I have some issues with the list thread
[20:17] <LaserJock> I don't mind people bringing up problems
[20:17] <LaserJock> but I want people to contribute to the solutions
[20:18] <Lns> how do you propose they do so if they aren't a programmer?
[20:18] <LaserJock> triaging is good, testing is great
[20:18] <LaserJock> I'm not a programmer per se
[20:19] <LaserJock> many many Ubuntu developers aren't either
[20:19] <LaserJock> it's not our responsibility to fix bugs in most cases
[20:19] <LaserJock> it's about forwarding, tracking, integrating work that others do
[20:20] <LaserJock> documentation is also a key aspect
[20:20] <LaserJock> often times people can avoid bugs if told how to do so
[20:21] <Lns> But what happens after the bug is forwarded to say, the gnome dev team, and they sit on it because Edubuntu/LTSP specific bugs aren't a priority to them?
[20:21] <LaserJock> you poke
[20:22] <LaserJock> you make it a priority for them :-)
[20:22] <Lns> does that really work all the time though?
[20:22] <LaserJock> not all the time, no
[20:22] <LaserJock> but a lot more than you might think
[20:23] <LaserJock> developers most often dislike bugs in their code and are quite willing to help get things fixed
[20:23] <LaserJock> sometimes you run into a "dead" upstream where there's no development work being done
[20:24] <LaserJock> but Debian is also quite helpful
[20:24] <Lns> Are any coders firmly against accepting patches?
[20:25] <LaserJock> very rarely you come across people that don't want to work with software they've already released
[20:25] <LaserJock> so they'd maybe say "I'll take patches against the development version only"
[20:25] <LaserJock> but patches are like candy for most developers :-)
[20:26] <Lns> See, that's my point :)
[20:26] <Lns> I would absolutely love to pay someone, if i could alone, to submit patches for bugs that my clients experience
[20:26] <Lns> even if only submitting patches alone
[20:27] <LaserJock> right, but what I'm saying is you probably don't even need to pay somebody to do it
[20:27] <Lns> i would gladly pay someone to do that, so my clients would continue to pay ME, and have faith in open-source and LTSP/Edubuntu specifically.
[20:27] <LaserJock> if you get the community built around it
[20:27] <Lns> hmm
[20:27] <LaserJock> I mean, I wouldn't turn down donations ;-)
[20:27] <LaserJock> but I think in terms of Edubuntu as a whole
[20:27] <Lns> so is it the hierarchy of communication broken? what is it about the community that makes it so hard for "normal people" to successfully contribute and get things accomplished?
[20:28] <LaserJock> it's much healthier to have a good community
[20:28] <Lns> i agree with you on that..the community is the lifeblood of any F/OSS project
[20:28] <LaserJock> well, right now the problem is really at the top
[20:28] <LaserJock> or rather the lack thereof
[20:28] <LaserJock> technically speaking there are currently 0 Edubuntu developers
[20:29] <LaserJock> ogra's done a tremendous job, but his current work load is elsewhere, so any Edubuntu work is in his no-so-available free time
[20:30] <LaserJock> I'm just getting back into Edubuntu but am currently work on my PhD so don't have extensive time at the moment
[20:30] <Lns> I agree...I can't believe how much of a help ogra's been over the past couple of years for me, not to mention the countless others that have looked to him for help
[20:30] <LaserJock> we're the only 2 Ubuntu developers who've worked on Edubuntu really
[20:30] <Lns> Well here's the thing then...
[20:31] <LaserJock> so I think we need a time of reanalysis, regrouping so that we can get a plan together
[20:31] <Lns> we've got next to no devs for Edubuntu
[20:31] <Lns> (i agree)
[20:31] <Lns> But we have TONS of people using Edubuntu/UbuntuLTSP
[20:32] <Lns> So we have a bunch of admins with no dev team. there needs to be more of a balance obviously
[20:32] <Lns> to get things accomplished faster, bugs squished and happy admins/users
[20:33] <Lns> how can the admins help? That's what I am, essentially
[20:33] <Lns> and i know you mean triaging/reporting problems/etc
[20:33] <LaserJock> ok, well there's quite a number of things
[20:33] <LaserJock> it's just a matter of getting things going
[20:33] <Lns> but I *do* that...and then I sit and watch the number of unresolved bugs in my LP sub list grow
[20:33] <LaserJock> building some momentum
[20:34] <LaserJock> we could start having weekly bug squashing sessions
[20:34] <LaserJock> really promote them on the lists and Planet Ubuntu for instance
[20:34] <Lns> what's planet ubuntu?
[20:34] <LaserJock> http://planet.ubuntu.com
[20:35] <Lns> See...that's another thing..the decentralization of everything is so confusing
[20:35] <Lns> fridge/planet/wiki/lists/irc/etc
[20:35] <LaserJock> lol, planet is about centralization
[20:35] <Lns> oh
[20:35] <Lns> =p
[20:35] <LaserJock> gosh, you have no idea
[20:35] <LaserJock> wait until you get into packaging
[20:36] <LaserJock> stuff is *everywhere*
[20:36] <Lns> see, that's the problem though!
[20:36] <Lns> we need to fixate on the core issue there
[20:36] <LaserJock> sure
[20:36] <LaserJock> but it's a big problem to tackle
[20:36] <Lns> so what
[20:36] <Lns> we're powerful =)
[20:36] <LaserJock> and we're working on it ;-)
[20:37] <LaserJock> for instance, right now there are 3 "places" that QA services are hosted in Ubuntu
[20:37] <Lns> well i'd love to know what i can do to best contribute to the centralization of all of these things
[20:37] <LaserJock> the QA team is working on having a central portal for all of that
[20:37] <Lns> that is awesome
[20:37] <Lns> that's what we need
[20:38] <LaserJock> ok, so some things I can think of:
[20:38] <LaserJock> 1) Edubuntu bug days where we can all get together and squash
[20:38] <LaserJock> 2) Edubuntu Q&A sessions where people can come and ask how they can help and learn about how Edubuntu is developed
[20:39] <LaserJock> 3) A "How can I help?" doc on www.edubuntu.org
[20:39] <LaserJock> 4) get edubuntu-devel used again to discuss bugs, etc.
[20:40] <LaserJock> 5) have a clear roadmap and target
[20:40] <LaserJock> those are the things that come off the top of my head anyway
[20:41] <Lns> I think #5 is really what i'd like to focus on, anyway
[20:41] <Lns> if people know the direction of the project
[20:41] <Lns> than they are more likely to get involved
[20:41] <Lns> humans are task-oriented
[20:41] <sbalneav> Who decides what the roadmap is? :)
[20:41] <LaserJock> good question
[20:42] <Lns> very
[20:42] <LaserJock> those who show up? ;-)
[20:42] <sbalneav> Afternoon LaserJock!
[20:42] <LaserJock> hi Scottie
[20:42] <sbalneav> heh
[20:42] <Lns> the community, exactly =)
[20:42] <Lns> the ones that are most interested in the project, that prove so
[20:43] <Lns> I just get so frustrated with which is the "best" way to communicate my concerns about LTSP in Ubuntu
[20:43] <Lns> because there are so many ways
[20:43] <LaserJock> a large scale "this is what we want to do, this is what our targets are"  would probably be a starting place
[20:43] <sbalneav> Lns: Well, you've got an LTSP developer right here, what are your concerns? :)
[20:44] <Lns> hehe..well i see IRC is one of the easiest ways to get in contact w/the devs ;)
[20:44] <sbalneav> Yup
[20:44] <Lns> LaserJock: i agree exactly with your last statement
[20:44] <Lns> my concerns are that i have issues and bugs that aren't being resolved quickly enough for my clients
[20:44] <LaserJock> take a gander at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument
[20:44] <Lns> and it is of no blame to the community
[20:44] <Lns> or the devs involved
[20:44] <sbalneav> ok, which bugs?
[20:44] <Lns> but it is a concern to me
[20:45] <Lns> hmmmmm...well gnome-watchdog/lingering processes for one
[20:45] <Lns> but i don't want to get specific here
[20:45] <sbalneav> Why not?
[20:45] <Lns> one minute..sorry
[20:46] <sbalneav> Define "lingering processes".  Are they processes that hang around that cause problems?  Or processes that hang around, and don't bother anything?
[20:46] <LaserJock> well, for me there is still a bit confusion when it comes to LTSP and Edubuntu
[20:47] <LaserJock> when people say "bugs in Edubuntu" how often are they really saying "bugs in LTSP"
[20:47] <sbalneav> Well, LTSP's moved officially back "upstream" now, so it's just a project that edubuntu relies on.
[20:47] <sbalneav> Well, that
[20:48] <Lns> sbalneav: why not? because there are too many bugs for me to list to try and squish with you now :) i want to focus on the goal of better collaboration between non-devs and devs so things can flow better for everyone
[20:48] <Lns> rihgt
[20:48] <Lns> and Ubuntu LTSP stuff is what i mainly want to focus on, personally
[20:49] <sbalneav> Lns: Let me inject a little reality into your high idealism.
[20:49] <LaserJock> and for me I honestly don't care about LTSP
[20:49] <LaserJock> :-)
[20:49] <LaserJock> well, other than LTSP has the coolest devs in the entire world
[20:49] <sbalneav> All the LTSP developers are full time employed doing other things besides LTSP
[20:50] <sbalneav> we work on it when we can, however we can.
[20:50] <sbalneav> There is no "full time dedicated ltsp developer".
[20:50] <sbalneav> So...
[20:50] <LaserJock> well, that's another issue I was going to bring up
[20:50] <LaserJock> it's hard to employee people who are already employed full-time elsewhere
[20:51] <Lns> sbalneav: i agree with you
[20:51] <sbalneav> We've got a bugs area right now, and there's an LTSP developer here right now, so if you've got some hot button issues, why not lay it on me NOW, and I'll see if there's anything I can help you with.
[20:51] <Lns> sbalneav: see though, hot-button issues aren't my big issue :)
[20:52] <Lns> i want to make it so hot-button issues are dealt with in the best way possible for *everyone*
[20:52] <Lns> and i know that isn't easy to hear
[20:52] <LaserJock> right, which means fixing the ones we can when we can when they come up :-)
[20:52] <Lns> but i want to help turn the big gear
[20:53] <LaserJock> I think ltsp could use a good triage session
[20:53] <Lns> i would love to be involved in that
[20:53] <LaserJock> it's got 56 open bugs
[20:53] <LaserJock> which is 1/3 of the open edubuntu bugs
[20:53] <sbalneav> Ok, you turn the big gear.  And when the big gear's turning, pop into either here or #ltsp, and let us know what the issues are.
[20:54] <LaserJock> sbalneav: is there a convenient day for you in the week?
[20:54] <LaserJock> or are they all mostly the same
[20:54] <sbalneav> Probably in a week or two I could stay home and do a bug squashing day.  P
[20:55] <LaserJock> ok, sounds good
[20:55] <sbalneav> A lot of the bugs assigned to LTSP aren't LTSP bugs per se, but problems with X detection, etc.  that are out of our hands.  Others have been fixed with the latest ltsp developer conf.
[20:55] <LaserJock> sbalneav: once you know when that is can you send an email to edubuntu-{devel,users} saying you're gonna have an LTSP bug squashing day?
[20:56] <sbalneav> Unfortunately, because I didn't get a chance to do any work for 6 months or so, Launchpad kicked me out of edubuntu-bugs.
[20:56] <LaserJock> right, that's why I think a good day of triage is needed
[20:56] <sbalneav> So I'll need to get back on that.
[20:56] <sbalneav> I sure can.
[20:56] <LaserJock> awesome, thanks
[20:57] <Lns> sbalneav: if you want to know my bugs... they are (and they are not all LTSP specific, but rather semi-large-scale ubuntu deployment specific) LP #s 19033<PHONE_NUMBER>3<PHONE_NUMBER>85<PHONE_NUMBER>63
[20:57] <sbalneav> LaserJock: can you add me back into edubuntu-bugs, or is that something ogra has to do?
[20:57] <LaserJock> sbalneav: ogra for now, since I'm not in yet either ;-)
[20:57] <ogra> ??
[20:58] <LaserJock> ogra: sbalneav and I aren't in ~edubuntu-bugs currently
[20:58] <sbalneav> ogra: hey, I think I got booted from the edubuntu-bugs team.  Add me back in?
[20:58] <ogra> i wonder why i didnt get a notification
[20:58] <ogra> LaserJock, re-added
[20:59] <LaserJock> ogra: danke
[20:59] <sbalneav> Thankee ogra
[20:59] <ogra> sbalneav, too
[20:59] <ogra> any of you wanna be an admin ?
[20:59] <LaserJock> I can do it
[21:00] <LaserJock> it's always good to have more than one :-)
[21:00] <ogra> done
[21:00] <ogra> yeah
[21:00] <LaserJock> gracias
[21:00] <ogra> especially if the main admin doesnt get mail notifications :(
[21:00] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:02] <LaserJock> sbalneav: you think 2 weeks before an ltsp bug day?
[21:03] <LaserJock> I could run a non-ltsp bug day either before or after
[21:03] <Lns> Would it make sense to have a "group" of real-world UbuntuLTSP/Edubuntu administrators to prioritize certain issues, bugs and feature requests that are common amongst all of them, to more formally present to devs?
[21:04] <Lns> If the admins can, "offline", gather information like this, maybe it would help in the process of bug squashing when the devs know how important certain ones are
[21:04] <ogra> LaserJock, that would make a lot of sense, i'll pull in the last upstream wed. night
[21:04] <ogra> last minute before FF :)
[21:04] <LaserJock> heh
[21:04] <ogra> as usual
[21:04] <LaserJock> I've got a last minute I'm trying to do
[21:05]  * ogra has a million last minute things for ubuntu-mobile so that somewhat hogs me
[21:05] <ogra> plus i took the taks to get touchscreens proper into hal-input
[21:05] <LaserJock> Lns: well, initially I think we need to take stock of what we have, get them triaged
[21:05] <ogra> so they work at least basically in intrepid
[21:06] <LaserJock> Lns: certainly opening some discussion on the mailing list would be useful
[21:06] <Lns> LaserJock: ok...but who's going to determine which ones are the most important?
[21:06] <Lns> I'm thinking more along the lines of a "formal" group of administrators
[21:06] <LaserJock> well, tbh, that's usually not much of an issue
[21:06] <Lns> the mailing list seems to be a mix of admins, users and devs
[21:07] <LaserJock> people generally work on what they can when they can and it's usually fairly easy to determine what needs prioritization
[21:07] <LaserJock> Lns: do you feel there's a lack of priority?
[21:07] <Lns> LaserJock: I do, in some cases
[21:07] <Lns> for instance
[21:07] <LaserJock> at this point I'm shooting for "can we get a CD that installs" :-)
[21:09] <Lns> LP 19033 has been an issue for a while now...and that's a huge priority to me and other admins who wish to deploy centralized firefox configs
[21:09] <sbalneav> Lns: just FYI, the bugs you provided me with, as far as I can see, none of them are LTSP related, with the possible exception of the fast user switcher
[21:09] <Lns> sbalneav: i know..i think my motivation is in larger scope than ltsp-specific issues
[21:09] <Lns> and maybe i'm barking up the wrong tree, but you guys are the ones i communicate mostly with about this kind of stuff
[21:10] <LaserJock> nah, I think it's appropriate really
[21:10] <LaserJock> but we need to work on getting people pointed in the right direction
[21:10] <Lns> since i'm using Ubuntu and LTSP as my setup, i come to you guys whne i have problems :)
[21:10] <LaserJock> ok, well see here's part of my LTPS/Edubuntu issue
[21:11] <LaserJock> I wonder if it'd make sense to have a LTSP subteam or something
[21:11] <LaserJock> rather than Edubuntu == LTSP
[21:11] <sbalneav> The problem is, what's edubuntu except: some artwork, a bunch of package install defaults (edu + ltsp).
[21:12] <LaserJock> because there are aspects of LTSP being on the Ubuntu disk than should probably be run through Ubuntu or Ubuntu Server channels
[21:12] <sbalneav> qcad developers don't hang here, nor do kdeedu
[21:12] <sbalneav> the only people who DO hang here are ltsp people.
[21:12] <LaserJock> right
[21:12] <LaserJock> there are a few upstreams that do
[21:12] <sbalneav> simply because LTSP is the most complicated thing to set up.
[21:12] <LaserJock> gcompris for instance
[21:12] <LaserJock> right, so I don't think we (as Edubuntu) should ditch LTSP
[21:13] <LaserJock> but perhaps it makes sense to sub-team it in some way
[21:13] <Lns> My main issues generally revolve around multi-user Ubuntu installations residing on a single server - not necessarily the LTSP part, but everything that encompasses having many users on a single server.
[21:13] <LaserJock> so that we can let LTSP issues be focused on, and not entirely by Edubuntu, which doesn't have a lot of resources
[21:14] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Well, I think the simplest way to do that, now that LTSP is officially "upstream" again, is to just forward people onto #ltsp.
[21:14] <LaserJock> hmm, yes, that is a good point
[21:14] <sbalneav> since ogra, myself (getting back to it) both hang out here and #ltsp, it should be good.
[21:15] <LaserJock> it's more moving LTSP from Edubuntu to upstream than from Edubuntu to Ubuntu in reality
[21:15] <sbalneav> Probably the SIMPLEST thing would be for you to ALSO hang out on #ltsp, then you could guide people over, and drop them off to our tender ministrations :)
[21:15] <LaserJock> pfft
[21:15] <Lns> lol
[21:15] <LaserJock> you're just trying to turn me to the dark side
[21:15] <sbalneav> heh
[21:15] <LaserJock> "do as we do, say what we say"
[21:16] <sbalneav> Exactly
[21:16] <LaserJock> well, I do have the LTSP figure
[21:16] <LaserJock> ;-)
[21:16] <sbalneav> lol
[21:16] <sbalneav> "Welcome to #ltsp, where the only thing thin are the clients"
[21:16]  * Lns falls over
[21:17] <sbalneav> I think that makes the most sense, since #ltsp can help edubuntu people effectively with LTSP issues.
[21:17] <Lns> so i have a (maybe dumb) question that might or might not be related
[21:17] <sbalneav> Then that gets the ltsp out of this channel, and over to the one where they'll have the best chance of getting help.
[21:17] <Lns> hmm..well maybe not a question
[21:17] <sbalneav> for LTSP stuff anyway.
[21:17] <LaserJock> sbalneav: so a good bug triage session would be good to figure out what's LTSP specific and to forward on to LTSP where needed?
[21:18] <sbalneav> Well, LTSP uses launchpad for it's tracking anyway, so that's not a problem.
[21:18] <LaserJock> oh, right, cool
[21:18] <LaserJock> easy then
[21:18] <sbalneav> I WAS looking at bugs, but the last 6 months my life fell apart, so I got out of triaging bugs.
[21:18] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:19] <Lns> for example - i have issues with gnome-system-monitor and killing other users' processes. This is definitely in relation to LTSP since it's an LTSP multi-user setup..but it almost seems as though the core ubuntu dev team is ditching focus on multi-user setups, for favour of the best single-user experience.
[21:19] <sbalneav> I'll sit down tonight and wander through the LTSP bugs, and see which ones aren't an ussue anymore.
[21:19] <LaserJock> Lns: I don't know that it's quite that distinct
[21:19] <sbalneav> Lns: Does it work on the console, but not on an LTSP terminal?
[21:20] <Lns> sbalneav: it works with sudo, but not with someone as part of the 'admin' group from a terminal
[21:20] <LaserJock> Lns: often times it comes down to developers being able to reproduce/test and getting their attention in the first place
[21:20] <Lns> (both from terminal)
[21:20] <Lns> LaserJock: yeah - exactly
[21:20] <Lns> LP 206583
[21:20] <Lns> fix released?! =)
[21:20] <Lns> that's new
[21:21] <LaserJock> Lns: for the first part getting Edubuntu people involved with testing is a win, and for the second, getting bug filled out right and against the right packages is key
[21:22] <Lns> LaserJock: see that's where i see a semi-formal/formal group of admins who have someone that *knows* the right packages can help filter out all the individual chatter/bug dupes/etc
[21:22] <LaserJock> Lns: correct, this is where ~edubuntu-bugs comes in
[21:22] <LaserJock> we need to get admins signed up and trained :-)
[21:23] <Lns> but see, for those who don't technically use edubuntu, they might not look there...
[21:23] <Lns> i know this is way beyond the scope of what you guys can help with
[21:23] <Lns> so i hope you don't mind me brainstorming with you
[21:23] <LaserJock> no problem at all
[21:23] <Lns> =)
[21:23] <LaserJock> and there are things that can probably be done
[21:23] <LaserJock> one central issue is the whole Ubuntu Education/ Edubuntu thing
[21:24] <Lns> For me, I would love to be a cornerstone, almost a point of contact for a group of admins that deal with Edubuntu, LTSP, Ubuntu, multi-user servers, and everything in between
[21:24] <LaserJock> a lot of people use Ubuntu + LTSP and not Edubuntu at all
[21:24] <Lns> because it bleeds into every other aspect of ubuntu
[21:24] <Lns> exactly - like me
[21:24] <LaserJock> but all our team structure is still Edubuntu
[21:24] <Lns> but again, i come here when it's ubuntu/ltsp specific (and #ltsp)
[21:24] <LaserJock> mailing lists, LP teams, etc.
[21:24] <sbalneav> Lns: See, thats NOT really a problem with LTSP.  And I know I'm beating this horse into hamburger but you/I/we REALLY need to make sure we distinguish between "An LTSP bug" vs "I've run into a bug, and I'm running an LTSP environment".  This one looks like a Gnome bug, that only manisfests itself when you're outside a single user environment
[21:25] <LaserJock> sbalneav: I think that's key
[21:25] <Lns> sbalneav: exactly.
[21:25] <LaserJock> what we need is a LTSPers guide to filing bugs
[21:25] <Lns> that's the thing though, most administrators (i'm learning as much as i can) but MOST admins don't even know HOW to file a bug
[21:25] <LaserJock> to help point them towards when to file against LTSP and when not to
[21:26] <Lns> LaserJock: i don't know if that would help...i think we need a filtering system so that the people who know how to file bugs can, on behalf of others
[21:26] <Lns> it becomes too technical for a lot of people
[21:26] <Lns> as silly as that might sound
[21:26] <LaserJock> well, it can be done fairly well :-)
[21:27] <LaserJock> a combination of good bug filing documentation and ~edubuntu-bugs would probably help dramatically
[21:27] <Lns> i dunno...the techs i work with don't even really understand how ltsp works, let alone finding a package name that pertains to their bug
[21:28] <LaserJock> well, it's not too bad in a lot of ways
[21:28] <sbalneav> Lns: And did they read the Edubuntu handbook?
[21:28] <Lns> laserjock, no, i agree
[21:28] <Lns> sbalneav: nope..and most of them won't understand it if they did
[21:28] <LaserJock> in the QA team we've put a lot of emphasis on Launchpad developers to make it easier to find what package to file bugs against
[21:29] <LaserJock> in the future we'll have search algorithms and per-package bug filing instructions to help
[21:29] <sbalneav> Lns: So, how do you propose to fix that probmlem?
[21:29] <Lns> I love how LP has improved, and I agree that it is very easy to file bugs
[21:29] <Lns> but when you come against the mass of admins out there, filing hundreds of duplicate bugs because they don't want to search through the possible list of dupes...it becomes an issue
[21:29] <LaserJock> but for right now I think we can help people say "this looks like an LTSP bug" or "this is not an LTSP bug"
[21:30] <Lns> sbalneav: well one thing i can think of is forming a group of administrators with a hierarchy of their own
[21:30] <LaserJock> things like "can you reproduce this bug on a system that doesn't have LTSP installed?"
[21:30] <Lns> so things can get handled in the best way possible
[21:31] <Lns> LaserJock: and a lot of people can't even test that if they don't have a non-ltsp system available
[21:31] <sbalneav> Lns: At your site, or here in #edubuntu?
[21:31] <LaserJock> dpkg -l | grep ltsp will probably suffice
[21:31] <Lns> sbalneav: i'm thinking in relation to edubuntu/ubuntu/ltsp, but at my site / a separate portal/entity/whatever
[21:31] <LaserJock> the other aspect of all this, is we're not exactly drowning in bugs
[21:32] <Lns> LaserJock: not yet ;)
[21:32] <Lns> but if you make it easy enough to file bugs
[21:32] <Lns> just think of if microsoft has such an easy bug filing system
[21:32] <LaserJock> we make it easier to file *better* bugs
[21:32] <Lns> that would be a nightmare
[21:33] <Lns> that's where the emphasis should be, yes
[21:33] <Lns> imho
[21:33] <Lns> but
[21:33] <Lns> still - when the userbase grows, the weeds will start to crop up none the less
[21:33] <LaserJock> that's why community is important
[21:34] <LaserJock> by that time we'll have a good triaging team to look after weeds
[21:34] <Lns> yes...the structure.
[21:34] <LaserJock> so, to start off I think we need as close-knit of a team as we can
[21:34] <Lns> i think i might start looking into how to form a group of multi-user Ubuntu administrators
[21:35] <LaserJock> Lns: I think the Server Team may have some interest as well in that regard
[21:35] <Lns> server team?
[21:35] <Lns> canonical support server team?
[21:35] <LaserJock> no
[21:36] <LaserJock> the Ubuntu Server Team, the people who make the Ubuntu Server distro
[21:36] <Lns> oh ok
[21:36]  * Lns wouldn't have initially thought to look there either since he installs ubuntu-desktop on his ltsp servers ;)
[21:36] <LaserJock> granted
[21:36] <LaserJock> LTSP is in an odd position there
[21:36] <LaserJock> but server people are often interested in multi-user environments
[21:37] <Lns> seems like a valuable resource to look into none the less
[21:37] <Lns> well thank you guys for the long chat
[21:38] <LaserJock> in some ways I'm feeling like we need to start from scratch
[21:38] <Lns> it's helped me understand the whole structure a bit better
[21:38] <Lns> start what from scratch?
[21:38] <LaserJock> figuring out what we want Edubuntu to be, what our targets are
[21:38] <LaserJock> "Edubuntu"
[21:38] <LaserJock> not in terms of getting rid of everything we have
[21:38] <LaserJock> but in terms of re-evaluation of where we want to head
[21:39] <LaserJock> I really like what Xubuntu did with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument
[21:39] <LaserJock> though it's rather long ;-)
[21:39] <Lns> My main push into edubuntu was the LTSP part of it
[21:40] <Lns> wow
[21:40] <Lns> yeah that looks nice
[21:40] <LaserJock> that would then give us a much better basis for decision making and make Edubuntu maybe more focused
[21:41] <LaserJock> as well as give something people can say "oh cool, I want to be a part of that!"
[21:42] <Lns> I think all limbs of Ubuntu should have that kind of structure
[21:47] <LaserJock> Lns: you subscribed to edubuntu-devel?
[21:47] <Lns> no - actually just edubuntu-user at the moment
[21:47] <Lns> and ltsp-discus
[21:47] <Lns> s
[21:48] <LaserJock> ok
[21:48] <LaserJock> I'd like to see this kind of discussion moving to edubuntu-devel
[21:49] <Lns> ok, i'll sub to it
[21:49] <LaserJock> I think one difficult aspect of Edubuntu is that Ubuntu is heavily IRC-dependent whereas I think many Edubuntu users are more email-focused
[21:50] <Lns> well i've seen that many educational-sector people are definitely e-mail driven
[21:51] <Lns> no matter what the project
[21:51] <LaserJock> the fact that many educational institutions block IRC ports doesn't help ;-)
[21:51] <Lns> hehe..very true.
[21:52] <Lns> not many edu techs/teachers/admins have a lot of time to spend in front of their *own* screen, either
[21:52] <LaserJock> mhm
[21:53] <LaserJock> so having a good mailing list is, IMO, fairly critical to getting the developer <-> user communication going better
[22:19] <Lns> LaserJock: i agree...and facilities that might be able to port information/communications to/from the mailing list, as well...as, of course, everyone likes to do things a bit differently ;)


[12:54] <eyfour> The phone app translations for my language were finished yesterday, but dpm's stats (see http://projects.davidplanella.org/stats/utopic/nb) still claim that some strings are remaining. Any ideas?
[13:02] <dpm> eyfour, let me update the stats now, perhaps they've not yet landed on the code
[15:44] <eyfour> dpm_: Thanks. Feels good to know that Launchpad isn't playing mind games on me again :)
[15:45] <dpm_> eyfour, np :)


[17:12] <ciacon> I have a question. I just upgraded to 21.10 and thus to linux-kernel-5.13 on my rPi. Previous versions for the Pi included the cdc-acm.ko, however linux-modules-5.13.0-1007-raspi does not. I'm at a loss if this is a bug or where to raise this. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
[17:34] <ogra> ciacon, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-raspi/+filebug
[17:35] <ogra> ciacon, kernel packages got splitted recently, there is a new -modules-extra package nowadays, perhaps cdc_acm just moved there
[17:57] <ciacon> ogra, this is what I ended up with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-raspi/+bug/1946601
[18:05] <ogra> 👍
[18:09] <ciacon> thanks for the pointers :)
[18:10] <ogra> 🙂


[00:11] <synaptix> * [synaptix] (~synaptix@unaffiliated/synaptix): Daniel
[00:11] <synaptix> woohooo!
[00:11] <synaptix> :D
[00:11] <synaptix> oops
[00:11] <synaptix> wrong channel sorry lol
[00:28] <jacky> xd
[00:28] <jacky> XD
[00:43] <hokachu> I'm trying to install 11.10 from a USB stick onto a laptop. After choosing to install from USB stick it started running some stuff, and then stopped.
[00:44] <hokachu> It only said restore soundcard mixer state [fail], everything else is [ok]. at the end is says stopping system v runlevel compatibility
[00:45] <hokachu> Now it's just sitting there and nothing is happening. Am I supposed to type something? Did it just give up?
[01:04] <hokachu> I decided to boot live and I managed to get to ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ I don't know what to do.....the page it suggests I look at doesn't exist. If anyone can help, please let me know. Although I have yet to see any "real" activity in this channel.
[01:09] <Unit193> It's supposed to boot you into a desktop env. During boot, did you see an option to check the CD?
[01:10] <Unit193> (Yes I know you used USB)
[01:12] <hokachu> check for errors?
[01:13] <Unit193> Yep, that's checking to make sure the "burn" went well and there's no missing/corrupt files, first thing to check on error.
[01:13] <hokachu> yeah, it said there were no errors
[01:13] <hokachu> can i show you the picture from when i tried to install?
[01:14] <Unit193> Sure, but may I ask why you went for 11.10?
[01:14] <hokachu> I tried 12.04 and it gave half a screen. it was really difficult to install with half a screen, but it did eventually install. After that the screen was purple with ubuntu 12.04, then blank. after rebooting it did the same thing
[01:15] <hokachu> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151597649305103&l=0f4d631a34
[01:15] <hokachu> That's the photo I took
[01:16] <Unit193> Did you check a hardware compatibility list to see if the hardware wasn't compatible?
[01:17] <hokachu> i checked in the forums and saw a lot of acer laptops, but none were the same. the person who was helping me yesterday said it was probably the graphics card, he helped me update some stuff in terminal
[01:20] <Unit193> Well, if it is in fact the hardware, nothing I can really help with. :/
[01:20] <hokachu> does it sound like a hardware problem?
[01:21] <Unit193> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport Did that get linked? Well, depending on what you would call half a screen, could be.
[01:22] <Unit193> You can also try #ubuntu if you'd like to get support from a second person. (Second take on it)
[01:22] <hokachu> i am, i tried here because i am super newb
[01:23] <hokachu> if my laptop isn't on the list then it probaby isn't supported?
[01:23] <Unit193> That doesn't have to be the case, no.
[01:24] <Unit193> Are you in "UbuntuFriendly"?
[01:24] <hokachu> no
[01:24] <hokachu> just checked, no one was there...
[01:25] <hokachu> after i use unetbootin o create the usb boot stick, it says to reboot. after rebooting should i do anything else or just remove the stick? maybe i made it wrong...
[01:26] <Unit193> After unetbootin, you reboot with the stick in the drive, and leave it in for the duration that you use it.
[01:27] <Unit193> You may have to select it in your boot option/bios
[01:27] <hokachu> i'm installing on a different laptop
[01:27] <Unit193> Right, "Safely Remove" is the only thing.
[01:28] <hokachu> should i try an even older version of ubuntu?
[01:28] <Unit193> 10.04 as a last shot.
[01:32] <hokachu> is there any sort of trick i should try first?
[01:32] <hokachu> from the text part that had ubuntu@ubuntu, is there a command?
[01:52] <Unit193> startx? Not used stock Ubuntu for a long time now.
[02:09] <davkbod-ld_> Greetings...ever since I upgraded to 12.04, file winows on the desktop have black on black coloring. If I select an object, I can read that object in black/grey coloring. Where can I fix?
[02:09] <escott> davkbod-ld_, have you tried unity-2d? sounds like a compositing issue
[02:12] <davkbod-ld_> As it is, right now window shows icons, but no titles..escott> Seem to also have an issue installing anything...Somethings failing...amd I'm a unix guy, but from way back...my dictionary lacks..
[02:14] <davkbod-ld_> escott - how do I activate unity-2d?
[02:15] <davkbod-ld_> but I'm still here..
[02:15] <escott> !unity2d
[02:15] <ubot2> Factoid 'unity2d' not found
[02:15] <escott> !info unity-2d
[02:16] <escott> davkbod-ld_, i think the package name is unity-2d. install it, then logout and at the login after putting in your username you can select the 2d session
[02:20] <davkbod-ld_> Give it a shot...Thx.
[03:37] <rainstake> Hi, I just reinstalled ubuntu 10.04 and am waiting for sudo apt-get upgrade to complete, but I have to I downloaded the tar file for forfox's lastest release and flash's lastes release and need help in running those latter two and putting the upgrade in the background.  Am I making sense?
[03:40] <rainstake> More precise: I have a two tar files to open and install, firefox and flash.  How, please?
[03:41] <holstein> i would just a PPA for firefox.. the stable one
[03:41] <rainstake> I do not know PPA definition.
[03:42] <holstein> maybe its gone now
[03:42] <holstein> i would actually be using 12.04 though myself
[03:42] <rainstake> Me too, but I can't find my CDs and left my usb's at work.
[03:43] <holstein> rainstake: i would wait til you get a way to do that
[03:43] <holstein> anything else is a waste of time at this point in my opinion
[03:43] <holstein> i mean, if you were running 10.04 already, keep running it
[03:44] <holstein> but, if you are going to set something up, make it 12.04... its LTS too
[03:44] <rainstake> I see your point, but installing two tar files is but a matter of simple tokens and arguments and I'm only a few steps away from that.  Anybody willing to assist rainstake.
[03:45] <reader__> rainstake, http://askubuntu.com/questions/25961/how-to-install-a-tar-gz-file read this !!
[03:45] <rainstake> Thank you, reader.
[09:35] <s-fox> Hello.
[12:35] <Chingy> Hi
[12:36] <Chingy> I'm trying to install ubuntu on a linpus machine (I've created the usb using linxuslive) - but its not installing when i reboot
[19:04] <Konstantinos> I have upgraded to ubuntu 12.04 lts. nvidia-current driver works fine. But ctrl-alt-f1 is getting to a screen with graphics messed up. Could you help?
[19:34] <Chingy> hi is there anyone here?
[19:35] <Chingy> i have a printer issue i would really love some help with :(
[19:35] <wojox> what's up
[19:35] <wojox> which printer
[19:36] <wojox> Chingy: which model printer
[19:37] <Chingy> hi
[19:37] <Chingy> its an Epson TM-T20
[19:37] <Chingy> Im using the latest ubuntu, but when i click print, the printer status comes up with STOPPED (even thought I dont touch anything)
[19:41] <Chingy> any ideas?
[19:42] <wojox> okay the drivers are installed but it can't find the printer?
[19:42] <Chingy> hi
[19:43] <Chingy> the drivers are installed and i can print a test page
[19:43] <Chingy> and it appears on the list ok, when I go to print. The problem is when I print (for example a homepage) it doesnt do anything, and the status comes up with STOPPED
[19:45] <Chingy> I installed it via a ppd file
[19:50] <Chingy> any idea wojox? First time with ubuntu and its so frustrating
[19:51] <wojox> welcome to printing in linux
[19:51] <wojox> it's not that easy
[19:51] <Chingy> haha i see that
[19:52] <wojox> i don't know why you can print a test page but not a file from the web
[19:52] <wojox> what about a file from your home directory
[19:55] <Chingy> do you mean a normal file like a document?
[19:55] <Sidewinder> Chingy, Sometimes the problem is with the web page itself; I remember I had a hell of a time trying to print something from hotmail. Typical.. :-(
[19:55] <Chingy> ah
[19:56] <Chingy> it seems to work if i print a file in libreoffice
[19:57] <Chingy> any idea what that might indicate? if it prints a document fine, but not a webpage or from thunderbird
[19:58] <Sidewinder> Chingy, I can't give you my undivided attention right now; am in a meeting, sorry.. :-(
[19:59] <Chingy> eh? sorry i've never been on an irc channel before
[19:59] <wojox> look in Firefox > File > Print
[19:59] <wojox> see what its set to
[19:59] <Chingy> there are two options
[20:00] <Chingy> Print to File and Epson-TM-T20
[20:00] <wojox> Is epson marked
[20:00] <Chingy> the Epson has the location (computer name) and the status says "Rendering Complted"
[20:00] <wojox> hmmm
[20:01] <Chingy> not sure whats meant by marked, but its certainly there in the printer panel
[20:11] <Chingy> these channels are a joke
[20:25] <RageRiot> hi guy, I've pulled out the Nvidia card fro my ubuntu box and put in a similar spec ati card which acctually operates smoother.
[20:25] <RageRiot> I just wanted to ask if unity 3d is possible with the open source ati driver
[20:37] <XxArchangelz> Can anyone help me with my instalation?
[20:38] <XxArchangelz> I have a Hp proliant dl360 g4 server, and Im trying to install the 12.04 LTS 64 bit os via usb and everytime I try installing I get an error saying it cant mount the cd-rom
[21:56] <Danaidh> Hey, is this the support channel for less technically aware users?
[21:57] <Sidewinder> Danaidh, Kinda'.
[21:57] <Sidewinder> I've seen compiling questions, asked here.
[21:57] <Danaidh> Well, I've got an issue with my wireless since upgrading to 12.04
[21:58] <Danaidh> Can't really seem to find a solution easily via Googling, so is this the place to be asking?
[21:59] <Sidewinder> Danaidh, I've very little experience with wireless trouble-shooting (it just worked), so I'm not the one to ask, sorry.
[21:59] <Danaidh> Any advice on where to go for that, then?
[21:59] <Sidewinder> You'd probably be better off trying in #ubuntu, if no one answers here.
[21:59] <Sidewinder> It's kinda' fast in there, though.
[22:00] <Danaidh> Alright, sound. Yeah, that's why I came here first.
[22:00] <Sidewinder> Just state your entire question on one line.
[22:00] <Sidewinder> And any error messages.
[22:00] <Danaidh> Plus I've been using Ubuntu for a while but I still wouldn't say I knew anything about the inner workings, personally
[22:01] <Danaidh> Including chipset and lspci output, etc.?
[22:01] <Sidewinder> Well, #ubuntu is the [place for you. :-)
[22:02] <Sidewinder> I'm reasonably certain that they'll get it sorted for you.
[22:02] <Danaidh> Aye, it's probably just something simple
[22:03] <Danaidh> But all I get by Google trawling is just stuff telling me to compile my own kernel
[22:03] <Sidewinder> Danaidh, BTW, did you search ubuntuforums.org as well?
[22:03] <Danaidh> Yeah I did
[22:03] <Sidewinder> Yes, I would suggest #u, then..
[22:04] <Danaidh> Well thanks for the advice anyway
[22:04] <Sidewinder> My pleasure. :-)
[22:05] <Danaidh> Off to the madness of #ubuntu
[22:05] <Sidewinder> I know what you mean..
[22:10] <zz_paddy> i think i should  be here instead
[22:11] <Sidewinder> Instead of where?
[22:12] <zz_paddy> #ubuntu i thought installing services on centos was hard till i started trying to install ubuntu on laptop
[22:13] <zz_paddy> every site ive been to all have been extracted to usb stick but cant seem to reboot and run from usb ( have made usb stick iso) and when i do extract files its telling me that the live cd files are missing
[22:14] <zz_paddy> hopefully this next one has the files i need :)
[22:14] <Sidewinder> zz_paddy, If it's installing and configuring various services, I would think that #ubuntu is the place; probably not a 'beginners' type of issue. Not only that but this channel is rather quiet, now..
[22:15] <zz_paddy> ohh i see no probs :)
[22:17] <Sidewinder> That's a good thing!
[22:18] <Sidewinder> Food! BRB..
[22:29] <hokachu> I might never be able to leave this channel because I am so beginner.....My goal is to get Ubuntu to install and boot up.


[05:08] <tmow[m]> cjwatson: Hi, can you kindly prioritize these builds?
[05:08] <tmow[m]> https://launchpad.net/~remmina-ppa-team/+archive/ubuntu/remmina-next-daily/+build/23576287
[05:08] <tmow[m]> https://launchpad.net/~remmina-ppa-team/+archive/ubuntu/remmina-next-daily/+build/23576240
[05:08] <tmow[m]> https://launchpad.net/~remmina-ppa-team/+archive/ubuntu/remmina-next-daily/+build/23576243
[14:29] <ricotz> cjwatson, hello :), please bump these 3 builds - https://launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+builds
[14:32] <cjwatson> ricotz: done
[14:32] <ricotz> thank you very much
[17:13] <rdz> Hey all. My build is waiting for 19 hours while it has always been saying "Start in 2 hours". What wait time do I have to expect?
[17:14] <rdz> Hm.. i guess the topic answers it. thanks!
[17:16] <cjwatson> I'm enabling our backup x86 build region for the weekend, since I'll be travelling and not available to prioritize builds
[17:17] <cjwatson> That should allow the queue to clear in actually a few hours rather than fictionally a few hours
[22:41] <rdz> 5