[00:16] <Pharaoh_Atem> zyga: https://youtu.be/UOZXERFHsW4?t=58m26s
[00:18] <Pharaoh_Atem> https://youtu.be/UOZXERFHsW4?t=1h1m32s
[00:19] <Pharaoh_Atem> niemeyer: nice mention by mattdm about our snap work in an interview about fedora ^
[00:48] <sergiusens> Doctor_Nick: at the very end of it, you can opt-in to have that in the snap
[00:49] <Doctor_Nick> sergiusens: ah hah
[00:49] <sergiusens> there's an env var to allow it all the way through
[00:49] <Doctor_Nick> so it's not really required for the build?
[00:50] <Doctor_Nick> it's not used in staging, priming, etc.?
[00:51] <sergiusens> Doctor_Nick: no, we annotate it regardless, on the step it is done on, but it should not affect following steps (unless, there is always an unless, changes in the previous step, force a rerun marking the following ones dirty)
[00:51] <sergiusens> Doctor_Nick: also https://snapcraft.io/blog/introducing-developer-notifications-for-snap-security-updates
[00:52] <Doctor_Nick> ok
[01:22] <Doctor_Nick> is there a way to set network restrictions like "only accept connections from localhost" in the snapcraft.yaml or does that have to be done elsewhere?
[01:48] <Doctor_Nick> also, why do snap daemons run as root?
[03:37] <Son_Goku> zyga, snapd 2.35 has been pushed for f27 too
[04:21] <zyga> Good morning
[04:21] <zyga> Thank you Neal
[04:31] <Son_Goku> zyga, we got some nice mentions in mattdm's recent interview on Destination Linux
[04:31] <Son_Goku> you should watch it ;)
[04:49] <zyga> I will, thank you for the tip :-)
[04:59] <mup> PR snapd#5774 closed: tests: introduce a helper for installing local snaps with --name <Parallel installs> <Simple> <Created by bboozzoo> <Merged by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5774>
[05:06] <mborzecki> morning
[05:46] <zyga> good morning (again)
[05:46] <zyga> both kids in school
[05:46] <zyga> time to work :)
[05:47] <zyga> good morning mvo :)
[05:50] <mvo> hey zyga
[05:50] <mborzecki> zyga: mvo: hey
[05:50] <mvo> mborzecki: good morning
[06:00] <mup> PR snapd#5775 closed: tests: also run unit/gccgo in 18.04 <Created by chipaca> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5775>
[06:38] <mvo> hm,hm, on arch the interfaces-timerserver-control test is failing for me:https://api.travis-ci.org/v3/job/425119844/log.txt
[06:42] <mborzecki> looking
[06:44] <mborzecki> mvo: does it reproduce always? maybe it's some temporary hiccup with ntp?
[06:45] <mvo> mborzecki: I saw it two times lets see if it happens again
[06:47] <s10gopal> can i install ubuntu core on esp8266
[06:47] <s10gopal> ?
[06:48] <zyga> hey s10gopal, we haven't heard about anyone attempting that yet
[06:49] <zyga> s10gopal: you'd have to have a relatively modern linux kernel and supported boot loader
[06:49] <zyga> s10gopal: in addition you'd have to have golang support, I don't know if esp8266 has an arm core or if it is a separate architecture
[06:50] <zyga> let us know what you learn
[06:52] <s10gopal> zyga, thanks
[07:01] <mborzecki> s10gopal: esp8622 is a microcontroller with wifi, there are smaller OSes you can use there (or just go bare metal) but linux is a no go
[07:02] <mborzecki> s10gopal: you can try pi zero or CHIP board which are slightly larger form factor, have wifi and bt and run on linux, i don't know about ubuntu core on these though, maybe needs some research
[07:05] <mvo> pi zero not yet :/
[07:05] <zyga> mvo: indeed
[07:07] <mvo> pstolowski|afk: hey, when you are around, could you quickly check the ifstate part of #5767? it is not used currently but given that there are some PRs in flight maybe it was added to accommodate those?
[07:07] <mup> PR #5767: many: remove deadcode <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5767>
[07:09] <pstolowski> mornings
[07:09] <pstolowski> mvo: looking
[07:10] <mvo> pstolowski: thanks and good morning
[07:11] <pedronis> mvo: hi, I think I removed the need for that funciton when I refactored conflict code and made it more blunt/conservative, but I forgot to remove it
[07:13] <mvo> pedronis: aha, no worries
[07:13] <mvo> pedronis: just wanted to double check because of the things in flight. thanks for confirming
[07:14] <pstolowski> mvo: +1, it's fine to remove it
[07:14] <mvo> ta
[07:15] <pstolowski> and both pedronis and me claim forgetting to remove it ;)
[07:15] <mvo> heh
[07:15] <mup> PR snapd#5767 closed: many: remove deadcode <Created by mvo5> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5767>
[07:16] <pedronis> :)
[07:25]  * pedronis is going to do reviewing this morning
[07:30] <zyga> brb
[07:30] <zyga> more coffee
[07:34] <mborzecki> coffee, brilliant idea
[07:41] <mup> PR snapd#5778 opened: snap-update-ns: remove deadcode <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5778>
[07:42] <mvo> zyga: ^- this one is for you, not sure if this is ok or goes to far but tests will tell (or maybe you need it for something else later?)
[07:48] <zyga> looking, thank you!
[07:48] <zyga> mvo: we need all of those
[07:48] <zyga> they are used in the trespassing fix PR already
[07:48] <zyga> (they were added as a part of -v1 review
[07:49] <zyga> the comments are +1 but the removals are not needed
[07:49] <zyga> mvo: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5760
[07:49] <mup> PR #5760: cmd/snap-update-ns: don't trespass on host filesystem in /etc and other places <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5760>
[07:49] <mvo> zyga: aha, cool. I close it then
[07:49] <zyga> thanks, I'll steal the comments though :)
[07:50] <mvo> zyga: yeah, iirc they are a commit that can even be cherry picked
[07:50] <zyga> yeah
[07:50] <zyga> 91e746fc0d61c8e89b9c4931f3eee39bef6e9ef3
[07:50] <zyga> doing that now :)
[07:50] <mvo> zyga: thank you
[07:50] <zyga> thank You :)
[07:50] <mup> PR snapd#5778 closed: snap-update-ns: remove deadcode <Created by mvo5> <Closed by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5778>
[07:51] <zyga> mvo: is there any dead code in interfaces?
[07:51] <mvo> zyga: chopTree
[07:51] <zyga> aha
[07:51] <mvo> zyga: thats the only bit
[07:51] <zyga> that _may_ become unused
[07:51] <zyga> it's part of another fix
[07:51] <zyga> but I may end up not needing it
[07:51] <zyga> thanks!
[07:52] <mvo> zyga: ok, I will leave it alone
[07:52] <zyga> I'll remove it if that is the case
[07:52] <mvo> zyga: deadcode is not super reliable, it does not deal well with import "C" for example so I don't think we can automate it yet
[07:52] <mvo> zyga: sounds good, thank you
[07:54] <zyga> mvo: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5779
[07:54] <mup> PR #5779: snap-update-ns: add comments about the "deadcode" in bootstrap.go <Simple> <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5779>
[07:54] <mup> PR snapd#5779 opened: snap-update-ns: add comments about the "deadcode" in bootstrap.go <Simple> <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5779>
[07:55] <zyga> oh, mup is back :)
[07:58] <zyga> mborzecki: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5780
[07:58] <mup> PR #5780: testutil: allow Fstatfs results to vary over time <Simple> <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5780>
[07:58] <pedronis> mborzecki: I spotted one issue with locks in #5758,  I suppose because you went back and forth about where/how much to lock, anyway probably worth going again over the lock changes there
[07:58] <mup> PR snapd#5780 opened: testutil: allow Fstatfs results to vary over time <Simple> <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5780>
[07:58] <mup> PR #5758: overlord/snapstate, snap: handle shared snap directories when installing/remove snaps with instance key <Parallel installs> <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5758>
[07:59] <pedronis> mborzecki: might also show we miss a test
[07:59] <mborzecki> pedronis: ack, will do, thanks for the review
[08:01] <mup> PR snapd#5781 opened: overlord: add chg.Err() in testUpdateWithAutoconnectRetry <Simple> <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5781>
[08:02] <mvo> ^- super trivial but would be great to get in so that I can figure out why the ppa builds are failing right now (3/6 arches failed with this error) :/
[08:02] <zyga> sure
[08:02] <mvo> ta
[08:02] <zyga> mvo: just merge it
[08:03] <mvo> yeah, I think I will
[08:03] <mborzecki> pedronis: yeah, that lock, damn, don't know how i missed that :/
[08:04] <pedronis> mborzecki: it's easy to see in the diff, don't think is easy to see if you did changes and then more changes,  to be honest when doing lock changes and changing one mind I would sort of recommend to start from a fresh master
[08:05] <pedronis> mborzecki: I also suspect that error path is not tested
[08:05] <pedronis> I mean even before
[08:06] <mborzecki> pedronis: right, it should panic there now that the lock is missing
[08:09] <popey> Well that's odd. popeycore is a suspended laptop. Wonder how he got here.
[08:12] <popey> huh, looks like my core laptop woke up when the battery was 0%, I guess to do the hybrid suspend, but that failed
[08:19] <Chipaca> popey: hybrid suspend shouldn't do that
[08:20] <ogra> well, its core
[08:20] <ogra> we dont really have much experience with suspending on that setup
[08:20] <Chipaca> popey: hybrid suspend is: prepare for hibernation, and just before power off, instead of power off, suspend
[08:20] <popey> i thought hybrid suspend did exactly that. woke from suspend to go to hibernate?
[08:20] <popey> huh
[08:20] <popey> ah okay
[08:20] <zyga> Chipaca: that's not accurate
[08:20] <Chipaca> i know
[08:20] <zyga> Chipaca: nowadays firmware assists
[08:20] <Chipaca> handwavy a bit
[08:20] <zyga> Chipaca: firmware does the suspend to ssd by itself
[08:20] <popey> this is not a new laptop
[08:20] <zyga> if it's correctly configured (right partitions etc
[08:21] <Chipaca> zyga: do we support that already? i thought that was ms-only magic
[08:21] <zyga> yes
[08:21] <zyga> for many many years now
[08:21] <Chipaca> ah ok
[08:21] <Chipaca> zyga: i'll have to look this up :-)
[08:21] <zyga> Chipaca: it just requires sandy bridge+ (ish, I forgot which exactly)
[08:21] <Chipaca> not today though
[08:21] <zyga> Chipaca: bios has to support this and it has to be enabled
[08:21] <Chipaca> why would you have a sandy bridge
[08:21] <zyga> Chipaca: you need to have an ssd and a correct partition layout
[08:21] <Chipaca> it's a safety hazard
[08:22] <Chipaca> sand makes things slippy
[08:22] <zyga> Chipaca: then after configured time the firmware wakes suspend-to-ram machine and suspends ram to ssd
[08:22] <zyga> and shuts off
[08:22] <zyga> it's _not_ booting the os
[08:22] <zyga> it's documented ...
[08:23] <zyga> but I cannot find the doc now :)
[08:23] <zyga> anyway
[08:23] <zyga> just wanted to say there are more parts that move now
[08:23] <popey> indeed, anyway, it's not doing that :)
[08:23] <Chipaca> i'll have to look into it; the process i've seen when i used hybrid was the one i described (a bit more complex)
[08:23] <zyga> popey: boot windows and update bios
[08:23] <zyga> popey: or use fwupd
[08:23] <popey> hahahah
[08:23] <popey> it's an x61s
[08:23] <popey> from the past
[08:23] <zyga> x61s, well
[08:23] <zyga> then it's not that :D
[08:24] <zyga> Chipaca: I have a desktop that supports that at home, it's pretty neat
[08:24] <zyga> Chipaca: essentially cuts the power drain while suspended
[08:24] <Chipaca> zyga: the power drain while suspended is already pretty low
[08:25] <zyga> Chipaca: well, it's zero then :)
[08:25] <zyga> and it fixes any magic hardware that doesn't really suspend correctly
[08:25] <popey> well mine drained to 0 in a few days
[08:25] <zyga> see :)
[08:25] <Chipaca> right
[08:25] <zyga> this is how modern laptops get month+ on suspend
[08:26] <zyga> embedded IC probably still operates / LEDs blink
[08:26] <zyga> but not sure really
[08:26] <pedronis> Chipaca: hi, thanks for the extra tests, some Qs in #5187
[08:26] <mup> PR #5187: overlord: introduce snapshotstate <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5187>
[08:27] <Chipaca> pedronis: the var is leftover debug :-( as is the status in the notice :-((
[08:27] <Chipaca> pedronis: I'll answer over there
[08:29] <Chipaca> mvo: did I accidentally trick you into supporting TinyHTTPProxy
[08:30] <mvo> Chipaca: *cough* the code felt very crufty so I modernized it a wee bit
[08:30] <mvo> maybe not crufty but just a bit old iirc, this is from 2006 originally or something
[08:30] <Chipaca> mvo: :-) that code has heritage :-D
[08:30] <Chipaca> yeah
[08:31] <mvo> Chipaca: so yeah, if you see further low hanging fruits, just shout
[08:32] <Chipaca> mvo: https://github.com/tkmunzwa/Tiny-HTTP-Proxy/blob/master/TinyHTTPProxy.py fwiw
[08:32] <Chipaca> mvo: that seems to be the most modern direct-line evolution of the one I had lying around
[08:33] <Chipaca> mvo: the other way this has evolved involves 'pip install', which loses its magic
[08:33] <mvo> Chipaca: thanks, I will see if there are useful bits
[08:33] <Chipaca> the whole point of it, to me, was that it was a single file i could scp places and work around silly firewall rules :-)
[08:33] <mvo> Chipaca: heh
[08:33] <Chipaca> TinyHTTPProxy + ssh port redirection == magic
[08:34] <mvo> Chipaca: that should still be possible with the version in the tree
[08:34] <mvo> Chipaca: the last bit I'm considering is the selectors module that zyga  mentioned but I will try to control my ocd to cleanup further I think its already overdone. anyway, back to this failing test during package build
[08:35] <mvo> the irony - my latest PR fails in the proxy test which screams - merge the proxy fix :)
[08:36] <mup> PR snapd#5781 closed: overlord: add chg.Err() in testUpdateWithAutoconnectRetry <Simple> <Created by mvo5> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5781>
[08:37] <cjwatson> Saviq,ogra: fix for the npm proxy thing is awaiting deployment (#8 in the IS queue)
[08:37] <mup> PR #8: launchpad.net/snappy -> github.com/ubuntu-core/snappy <Created by chipaca> <Merged by elopio> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8>
[08:37] <cjwatson> weird how suddenly a bunch of different people asked me about that on the same day :)
[08:38] <zyga> mborzecki: can you look at https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5780 - it's a part of the bigger one you read, needs 2nd ack
[08:38] <mup> PR #5780: testutil: allow Fstatfs results to vary over time <Simple> <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5780>
[08:39] <mup> PR snapd#5779 closed: snap-update-ns: add comments about the "deadcode" in bootstrap.go <Simple> <Created by zyga> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5779>
[08:43] <mup> PR snapd#5780 closed: testutil: allow Fstatfs results to vary over time <Simple> <Created by zyga> <Merged by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5780>
[08:43] <mup> PR snapd#5782 opened: ifacestate: helpers for generating slot names for hotplug <Hotplug> <Created by stolowski> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5782>
[08:43] <Son_Goku> wtf
[08:43] <Son_Goku> why did PR8 trigger a notification?
[08:45] <ogra> cjwatson, heh ... i blame Saviq though :)
[08:45] <pedronis> Chipaca: btw, there other question is basically do we leave around tar files etc when we undo? the test doesn't seem to check
[08:46] <Chipaca> pedronis: I've added the check, and was about to reply "yes", but I think something is missing
[08:46] <Saviq> cjwatson: ack, thanks!
[08:47] <Chipaca> pedronis: I might need to add a save cleanup
[08:47] <Chipaca> pedronis: to catch it
[08:48] <pedronis> Chipaca: possibly yes, and remove stuff if Error
[08:48] <Chipaca> pedronis: wondering how to set things up so that one tar fails long after the other tars succeeded
[08:48] <Chipaca> for the test of that
[08:48] <pedronis> Chipaca: remember we have mock command ?
[08:49] <Chipaca> i might do it with a shallower test, ie one that mocks backend
[08:49] <Chipaca> pedronis: yeah, that'd be the other approach, integration-y
[08:49] <pedronis> anyway as you prefer
[09:01] <zyga> Chipaca: is there something like filepath.Ext but for the non-extension part?
[09:03] <Chipaca> zyga: no; if ext := filepath.Ext(path); ext != path { path = strings.TrimSuffix(path, ext) }
[09:03] <Chipaca> zyga: or, grab filepath.Ext and reverse what it returns
[09:04] <Chipaca> or dont
[09:04] <Chipaca> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[09:04] <Chipaca> zyga: (ext'll always be != path unless path is "" fwiw)
[09:06] <zyga> thanks, I was hoping there's something baked
[09:06] <zyga> I like the TrimSuffix idea
[09:07] <mvo> mborzecki: I am reading 5770 right now, curious about the attack scenario. will the store do anything with the hashed instance name or is that just stored there?
[09:09] <mborzecki> mvo: afaict it's for metrics only
[09:09] <mvo> mborzecki: we probably also want to hash if we generate error reports thinking about it
[09:09] <mvo> mborzecki: ok
[09:09] <Chipaca> pedronis: I was wrong :-) we don't need a cleanup; undo does everything we need already
[09:09] <Chipaca> pedronis: it's as if i'd thought of this at some point, even :-) just not tested it
[09:09] <Chipaca> having to relearn my own code here
[09:10] <Chipaca> that's how long it's been
[09:10] <mborzecki> mvo: erorr reports contain a lsit of installed snaps?
[09:10] <Chipaca> pedronis: anyway now we'll have a test for it
[09:10] <mwhudson> zyga: random thought, maybe we should grab an hour one evening in brussels or something and work on snapd in debian
[09:10] <zyga> mwhudson: very much so
[09:10] <mwhudson> i just can't seem to work up the motivation to do it on my own
[09:11] <mvo> mborzecki: no but if a specific instance fails to install or refresh we might leak the name I have not checked the code just a idle thought
[09:11] <mborzecki> mvo: ok, will take a look, addign to my todo list
[09:12] <mvo> ta
[09:16] <pedronis> Chipaca: :) thanks
[09:22] <mvo> pstolowski: does https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/Jjc3JFDWnT/ ring any bells? it seems to be a race and we hit it ~50% of the time when bulding the edge snap currently
[09:23] <mvo> pstolowski: e.g. https://launchpad.net/~snappy-dev/+archive/ubuntu/edge/+sourcepub/9385143/+listing-archive-extra
[09:23] <pstolowski> mvo: looking
[09:23] <mvo> thanks
[09:25] <pstolowski> mvo: no, i haven't seen it before; looks like a race indeed, investigating
[09:42] <seb128> hey there
[09:42] <seb128> how do I tell snapd to not do any auto refrsh today?
[09:43] <seb128> $ snap refresh --time
[09:46] <mvo> seb128: you can use "sudo snap set core refresh.hold=2018-09-07T17:00:00Z"
[09:47] <mvo> seb128: then snap refresh --time should tell you that the refresh is on hold
[09:48] <mborzecki> pedronis: pushed fixes, added a test where UndoSetupSnap fails, also that All() was indeed useless, the variant with Get("snaps"..) is same line count and lighter :)
[09:52] <pedronis> mborzecki: I added some comments to the other ones
[09:53] <pedronis> mvo: do you have anything in your pile that needs my review ?
[09:53] <seb128> bah, mobile connection timeouted
[09:53] <seb128> unsure if my question when through before
[09:53] <pedronis> seb128: yes
[09:53] <seb128> how can I disable autorefresh for the day?
[09:53] <mborzecki> pedronis: thanks,
 seb128: you can use "sudo snap set core refresh.hold=2018-09-07T17:00:00Z"
[09:54] <pedronis>  seb128: then snap refresh --time should tell you that the refresh is on hold
[09:54] <mup> PR snapd#5783 opened: tests: add new core16-base test <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5783>
[09:54] <seb128> mvo, pedronis, thanks!
[09:54] <pedronis> we should grow a command but we have to discuss how to add it (we have too many commands already)
[09:55] <seb128> (not very user friendly to figure out,  "$ snap refresh --help" could at least hint that (or best, include a "--skip-next" or something)
[09:55] <pedronis> mvo: ^ something to (re)discuss in brussel  (how to tame our commands zoo to be able to add some more) ?
[09:55] <mvo> pedronis: yeah, the parser is also very strict about the time format, having something like "snap refresh --defer 1d" would be much nicer
[09:55] <seb128> that would be great
[09:55] <mvo> pedronis: yeah, that sounds like a good discussion
[09:56] <seb128> also n-m integration to respect the limited-bandwith flag and not refresh then would be nice
[09:56] <seb128> (gnome-software/flatpak do that)
[09:57] <seb128> mvo, your command confuses me, now
[09:57] <seb128> $ snap refresh --time
[09:57] <seb128> hold: tomorrow at 19:00 CEST
[09:57] <seb128> next: today at 15:23 CEST
[09:57] <seb128> it still says next is today at 15:23?
[09:57] <pedronis> yes
[09:57]  * seb128 is scared about his data
[09:57] <mvo> seb128: limit or metered? I mean does it not do any refreshes ?
[09:57] <mvo> seb128: or slows them down?
[09:57] <pedronis> seb128: there is still a next but hold overrides
[09:57] <seb128> metered
[09:57] <seb128> it just doesn't download updates
[09:58] <seb128> since you don't want to risk eating the user data plan in his back
[09:58] <seb128> (well they have a switch to enable auto download in that case, but it's off by default)
[09:58] <mvo> seb128: fwiw, we have a option to respect metered, "sudo snap set core refresh.metered=true"
[09:58] <seb128> that integrates to n-m?
[09:58] <mvo> mborzecki: maybe we should enabled metered by default? (cc seb128 )
[09:58] <seb128> that sounds like a reasonable default to me
[09:58] <mvo> seb128: +1
[09:59] <seb128> should I open a forum post about that maybe?
[09:59] <mborzecki> mvo: probably needs a +1 from niemeyer too
[09:59] <dot-tobias> I'm trying to stage the directory my-part/install/include → added it to stage as `include/*` but it does not show up in stage/. other directories from stage keyword do show up. Does someone has a hint what I'm doing wrong?
[09:59] <pedronis> yes, we had a long back and forth when we added it
[09:59] <popey> +1 to simplifying that. The syntax is arcane and user hostile
[09:59] <seb128> I'm also going to open a bug about snap refresh --time telling me that the next refresh is on a time where it's not
[09:59] <mvo> seb128, pedronis hm, hm, it sounds like we should we smarter about "next: " when we also have "hold:" to not confuse users
[10:00] <mvo> seb128: could you write a forum topic? I prepare a pr then
[10:00] <pedronis> mvo: I don't know
[10:00] <pedronis> probably superficially somewhere
[10:00] <seb128> mvo, is the forum or github the right place for such reports?
[10:00] <pedronis> not deeply
[10:00] <pedronis> code is complicated enough as it is
[10:00] <mvo> pedronis: :/ ok
[10:00] <mvo> seb128: forum works best, otherwise LP
[10:00] <seb128> mvo, k, good
[10:01] <niemeyer> What's the use case?
[10:01] <niemeyer> Do we have someone that reported issues while using metered connections?
[10:01] <niemeyer> (hello, btw :)
[10:01] <pedronis> mvo: also remember is partly by design,  if you snap set   refresh.hold=   before that next you would still get the refresh
[10:01] <mvo> niemeyer: yes
[10:01] <pedronis> mvo: if you change your mind
[10:01] <pedronis> is really not meant to move next
[10:01] <mvo> niemeyer: seb128 was surprised that the default for honoring metered connections is "off"
[10:02] <pedronis> mvo: maybe is just a better  of outputting something clearer in snap refresh --time
[10:02] <mvo> pedronis: yeah, maybe its enough to be smart at the presentation layer, i.e. snap refresh --time could look at the values maybe
[10:02] <seb128> niemeyer, I'm just train travelling and on mobile plan/tethering and I don't want snapd to eat my 1G monthly cap
[10:02] <niemeyer> mvo: Sure, but do we have someone with actual issues reporting?
[10:02] <mvo> pedronis: heh, sounds like we have the same idea
[10:03] <mvo> seb128: please paste me the link to your bug about next/hold and I will have a look
[10:03] <seb128> mvo, niemeyer, I'm going to start a discussion in the forum about that I guess, I think the safe default on metered connection is not eat datas since it's likely that those have a cost or a limit
[10:04] <niemeyer> seb128: That's reasonable of course.. how well is the automatic detection of that scenario working nowadays?
[10:04] <Son_Goku> niemeyer, we don't have any yet, iirc?
[10:04] <seb128> mvo, will do, I'm going to need to jump off that train and connect to another one in like 3 min but I do once I'm settled down in the next one :)
[10:04] <Son_Goku> or did that stuff get merged?
[10:04] <Son_Goku> (I forgot, it's hard to keep track of all the stuff!)
[10:04] <niemeyer> Son_Goku: Heya
[10:04] <Son_Goku> yo
[10:05] <niemeyer> Son_Goku: Not on our end.. we just honor the network manager setting
[10:05] <Son_Goku> so then at least from our side, we should be fine
[10:05] <niemeyer> The question is how well is the automatic detection of the scenario seb128 described
[10:05] <seb128> niemeyer, I don't know about the snapd side and where it gets its info from, but network-manager has heuristics that seem to make sense to me
[10:05] <Son_Goku> I suppose that depends on whether NM can figure it out, then
[10:05] <Son_Goku> if it can't, then *shrug*
[10:05] <Son_Goku> in my case, it usually does
[10:05] <niemeyer> seb128: The question is about network-manager itself.. we just honor it.. we don't have a setting by ourselves
[10:06] <niemeyer> seb128: But to change defaults, we need to have some idea of whether it will actually fix the problem reported, and whether it might create problems for others
[10:07] <ogra> Saviq, btw, it might make sense to have something added to the review-tools so packages using wayland-socket-dir get auto-rejected with a deprecation message on upload ... i wonder how hard that is to add for jdstrand
[10:07] <seb128> niemeyer, ok, I'm going to get the details and write on the forum with what n-m is doing exactly, we can have a discussion there then
[10:07] <niemeyer> seb128: Thanks!
[10:07] <seb128> yw, thanks for being interested in the topic :)
[10:09] <ogra> wll, does NM know you are tethering if you do it via wlan ? (assuming you just connect to a phone hostpot (at least thats how i do train rides))
[10:09] <ogra> *well
[10:10] <ogra> having some manual knob might make sense in that case
[10:14] <popey> nm has a switch to flip to say that
[10:14] <Son_Goku> NM has a lot of switches, knobs, and probes for determining whether it should say it's on a metered connection
[10:14] <Son_Goku> but last resort, you can *tell* NM it's a metered connection
[10:15] <popey> right, i meant in the case of a non-automagically determined connection, the user can override by flipping a switch
[10:15] <ogra> ah, i didnt know that (havent seen that in 16.04)
[10:15] <Son_Goku> it doesn't exist in 16.04, iirc
[10:15] <Son_Goku> most of the functionality was introduced in NM 1.4, I think?
[10:15] <ogra> thats like why then :)
[10:15] <Son_Goku> iirc, NM 1.0 is in 16.04
[10:16] <mborzecki> ogra: there's DHCP option that convey that you're on phone hotspot, afaik only android phones set it
[10:17] <ogra> ah, cool, i didnt know that !
[10:17] <Son_Goku> yeah
[10:17] <Son_Goku> I think iOS sends a thing too, because Macs know when its connected to hotspots
[10:18] <Son_Goku> but it's not "normal" like Android's
[10:18] <mborzecki> any chance we could have snapd gnome-software integration flip the switch appropriately?
[10:18] <Son_Goku> mborzecki: the integration is above g-s
[10:18] <Son_Goku> it's in gnome itself
[10:19] <Son_Goku> specifically, NM tells GNOME that it's metered, and everything responds to that
[10:19] <Son_Goku> the g-s snap probably can't access the gnome information index like g-s normally can
[10:20] <ogra> but it can use the NM interface to ask NM
[10:20] <Son_Goku> yes
[10:20] <ogra> (at least it should be able to)
[10:20] <seb128> well g-s already uses that flag in their flatpak plugin
[10:21] <mborzecki> snapd asks NM if current coonnection is metered
[10:21] <seb128> but it wouldn't make sense to do something for snaps there since it's not gnome-software who download/refresh snaps
[10:21] <seb128> (as it does for flatpaks)
[10:21] <pedronis> Chipaca: I have a question for you, do you remember why we didn't add call to validateInfoAndFlags  in snapstate.InstallPath ?
[10:21] <pedronis> *a call
[10:21] <ogra> right, and if snapd actually DTRT here (talking directly to NM) it should theoretically just work the right way
[10:22] <mborzecki> what we need is to tell snapd that it should hold refreshes if on metered, everything else is already there
[10:22] <Son_Goku> mborzecki, I thought we already do?
[10:22] <Son_Goku> at least, that's what niemeyer said
[10:23] <mborzecki> Son_Goku: integration with NM and holding refreshes is there but it's off by default
[10:23] <Son_Goku> ah, well that helps nobody
[10:23] <niemeyer> Again, the reason why the default is off is because we need to have some idea of whether it will actually fix the problem reported, and whether it might create problems for others
[10:23] <mborzecki> as pedronis wrote there was some back and forth about having it on by default
[10:24] <niemeyer> And we're having it again just onw..
[10:24] <niemeyer> now
[10:24] <niemeyer> The reason we didn't enable is because nobody knew for sure when that flag was enabled or not
[10:24] <Son_Goku> how do we turn it on to find out?
[10:24] <Chipaca> everybody i've talked to that was complaining about, i asked them to confirm back whether it worked or not
[10:25] <Chipaca> and, nobody has so far
[10:25] <mborzecki> so we're just missing a piece that talks to gnome and knows whether the user wanted to hold updates (be it system, flatpak or other) while on metered
[10:25] <Chipaca> so i've brought you 0 data points
[10:25] <niemeyer> mborzecki: The only piece missing is feedback, and proper information
[10:26] <niemeyer> mborzecki: It's not about whether the user wants to hold or not, but about when that flag actually goes on or not
[10:27] <niemeyer> IIRC, the feature was developed to fix a need for a manufacturer that had specific hardware, and knew what was going on.. they enabled it for their device, which they had strict control over
[10:27] <mborzecki> niemeyer: what i meant is that if a gnome user flips it on in gnome settings (or wherever else the setting is), we can only react if there's that integration piece that conveys their choice
[10:27] <niemeyer> So the feature worked well there.. but to change that to always enabled, we need a much better idea of when connections will be marked as metered
[10:32] <popey> FWIW I set the free train wifi to be metered because it's slow and I need the bandwidth for other stuff.
[10:33] <popey> I also defer all updates to 4am because I am often doing podcasts in the evening, and I don't want my laptop to start chugging away updating snaps unexpectedly
[10:33] <ogra> but that indeed expects that your laptop is on at that time
[10:33] <popey> which it often isnt
[10:33] <popey> so I have to manually snap refresh
[10:34] <popey> (also, it frustrates me that snapd starts doing updates immediately on wake from suspend which makes the laptop unusable for minutes)
[10:34] <ogra> it doesnt kick in after you booted it again ?
[10:34] <popey> no
[10:34] <ogra> all my VM core images definitely do that ... i have to plan an extra 10-15min when i plan to work with one that i havet booted in a while
[10:35] <popey> hm, maybe it does and I didnt notice
[10:35] <popey> today I pressed the wake button and walked away to get coffee
[10:35] <ogra> ecause the VM typically kicks off a core update right after boot and then reboots
[10:40] <pstolowski> mborzecki, zyga hey, since you commented some time ago on https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5632 - can you re-review?
[10:40] <mup> PR #5632: overlord: integrate device enumeration with udev monitor <Hotplug> <Created by stolowski> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5632>
[10:40] <zyga> sure
[10:41] <mborzecki> ok
[10:41] <pstolowski> ty!
[10:50] <zyga> pstolowski: done
[10:51] <zyga> pstolowski: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5632#discussion_r215580734 is the most important issue I think
[10:51] <mup> PR #5632: overlord: integrate device enumeration with udev monitor <Hotplug> <Created by stolowski> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5632>
[10:55] <seb128> mvo, https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/next-refresh-info-confusing-when-on-hold/7230
[10:55] <seb128> sorry, internet was flaky arriving to the station
[10:55] <pstolowski> zyga: hmm the err is returned in the next line?
[10:55] <zyga> DOH :)
[10:55] <zyga> thanks, I missed that :)
[10:55] <zyga> I removed it from the review now
[10:56] <seb128> and now going for my next train ;)
[10:56] <pstolowski> zyga: thanks for the other suggestions1
[11:00] <mborzecki> pedronis: i'm thinking about that base64, it's possible that there will be - in the encoded data, so simple '-'.split(..) might get a little confusing
[11:00] <mborzecki> pstolowski: 'foo'.split('-') ofc
[11:01] <mup> PR core18#69 opened: hooks: add libpam-modules <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/core18/pull/69>
[11:07] <mup> PR core18#69 closed: hooks: add libpam-modules <Created by mvo5> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/core18/pull/69>
[11:08] <mup> PR snapd#5784 opened: tests: run account-control test on uc16,uc18 and with different bases <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5784>
[11:19] <pedronis> mborzecki: I really hope we don't split those keys anywhere
[11:29] <pedronis> mborzecki: why the 39 -> 15 change ?
[11:30] <pedronis> Chipaca: did you see my question?
[11:30] <Chipaca> pedronis: no
[11:30] <Chipaca> pedronis: oh
[11:30] <mborzecki> pedronis: should be enough bytes, i can pass the whole lot
[11:30] <Chipaca> pedronis: maybe because 'try' would fail validation in that case?
[11:31] <pedronis> Chipaca: what's special about try?
[11:31] <Chipaca> pedronis: used during dev when things are more likely to be broken
[11:32] <Chipaca> pedronis: otoh, seems like the best time to error :-)
[11:32] <pedronis> Chipaca: ?
[11:32] <pedronis> Chipaca: this is about checks for --classic and --devmode , or am I confused ?
[11:32] <Chipaca> pedronis: ah sorry i got confused with the static path checker thing
[11:32] <Chipaca> pedronis: let me look
[11:33] <pedronis> mborzecki: I would keep all the bits
[11:33] <mborzecki> pedronis: ack
[11:33] <pedronis> for 512 it was indeed a bit overkill
[11:33] <seb128> niemeyer, mvo, mborzecki, in fact https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/snap-refresh-over-metered-connections/5001 already has lengthy details about what n-m is doing (also the review pointed in the recent comment picks on snapd compared to gnome-software/flatpak due to that :/)
[11:33] <pedronis> but this already half of that
[11:34] <Chipaca> seb128: but our problem isn't afaik what n-m is doing, but that we can't enable it by default until sufficient people have confirmed it does the right thing
[11:34] <pedronis> Chipaca: to be clear we are talking  validateInfoAndFlags  that you introduced a long while ago
[11:35] <popey> Chipaca: do we have a test case documented and call for testing?
[11:36] <Chipaca> pedronis: I'm going to chalk it down to oversight
[11:36] <Chipaca> popey: I don't think we do (I'd like confirmation that this is indeed what's stopping us from making it a default though)
[11:36] <pedronis> Chipaca: there are 3 places that could share a helper if InstallPath was also using it
[11:37] <pedronis> but maybe something breaks
[11:37] <Chipaca> pedronis: which are those?
[11:37] <popey> Chipaca: if we had test case and docs I'd be happy to test it
[11:37] <pedronis> Chipaca: doUpdate Install and InstallPath itself
[11:37] <pedronis> they all do a couple of validate, construct (a now complicated) SnapSetup
[11:37] <pedronis> and call doInstall
[11:37] <Chipaca> pedronis: is there anything else calling doInstall?
[11:37] <pedronis> yes
[11:38] <pedronis> Revert I think
[11:38] <Chipaca> eh, ok
[11:39] <Chipaca> mborzecki: niemeyer: mvo: am I right in thinking we're just waiting for sufficient confirmation that the n-m metered integration work does the right thing in the field, in order to enable it by default?
[11:40] <pedronis> Chipaca: maybe I should just try to add it and run push the PR and see what the test says and go from there
[11:40] <pedronis> if you don't recall a strong reason why is not there
[11:42] <Chipaca> pedronis: +1
[11:48] <Saviq> sergiusens: hey, have you seen snapcraft getting ENOPERM on host's snapcraft .snap before? https://travis-ci.org/CanonicalLtd/multipass/jobs/425154797
[11:48] <Saviq> when building in a build env, that is
[11:48] <sergiusens> Saviq: cleanbuild?
[11:49] <Saviq> sergiusens: travis, so yeah
[11:49] <Saviq> oh I mean, no, not cleanbuild
[11:49] <Saviq> =lxd
[11:49] <sergiusens> Saviq: yes, same, snapd changed perms on all snaps, you can use beta where we moved to a different model
[11:49] <Saviq> ack
[11:49] <sergiusens> Saviq: why lxd and not cleanbuild?
[11:50] <ogra> does cleanbuuild work in travis ?
[11:50] <sergiusens> ogra: of course it does
[11:50] <ogra> (i never tried :) )
[11:51] <sergiusens> ogra: https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/blob/master/.travis.yml#L70
[11:51] <Saviq> sergiusens: I don't go through the whole build necessarily, depends on the job https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/multipass/blob/master/.travis.yml
[11:51] <ogra> oh, wow, travis even supports snaps ?
[11:51] <sergiusens> ogra: yeah, we did a PR for their docs ages ago
[11:51] <ogra> it definitely didnt when  used it last and still had to manually create xenial chroots
[11:52] <ogra> (my experience is from a tme where they only offered precise)
[11:52] <sergiusens> ogra: https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/installing-dependencies/#installing-snap-packages
[11:52] <ogra> extremely cool !
[11:52] <sergiusens> yeah, and they only offer xenial to enterprise users :-)
[11:53] <Saviq> but with lxd, who cares! ;P
[11:53] <ogra> ah, i thought they switched the default nowadays
[11:53] <sergiusens> so the fact that it is slow to get to the masses might be a commercial thing more than a technical one :-)
[11:53] <ogra> yeah
[13:00] <Saviq> sergiusens: oh and btw, I'm abusing the fact that the build artifacts (stage, basically) ends up in $PWD and that the container is still around after it completes
[13:00] <Saviq> I suppose I won't be able to rely on it soon ;P
[13:00] <Saviq> sergiusens: if you have a look through our .travis.yml and suggest changes / highlight issues, that'd be great :)
[13:00] <sergiusens> Saviq: abuse all you want, but you will have to make up for your crimes :-)
[13:01] <ogra> why stage though ? prime feels a bit more natural
[13:01] <sergiusens> Saviq: we can certainly do that, btw
[13:01] <seb128> Chipaca, sorry, on a flaky internet in a train ...  what info do you need to figure out if the current code "does the right thing"? the post explains the heuristics used by n-m in details which is a good base I would think?
[13:02] <ogra> seb128, you need to stay on the train for the next 48h to see if some auto-update kicks in i guess *g*
[13:02] <Chipaca> seb128: well, in theory it works; in practice, we don't know
[13:02] <ogra> (geez, is it friday soon ?)
[13:02] <Saviq> ogra: I think prime is stripped of some test-related things that we need, but we may reevaluate for sure - and maybe amend what we prime for different build types
[13:02] <Chipaca> seb128: no amount of reading about what n-m claims to do will tell us whether it breaks in some weird real-world corner case
[13:03] <ogra> Saviq, yeah, prime is closest to the actual endresult though ... makes any tests more realistic i suppose (but yeah, stripped for sure)
[13:03] <seb128> Chipaca, it's being used by others (GNOME, flatpak), could that help us to get some confidence?
[13:03] <seb128> Chipaca, and if not what would?
[13:03] <seb128> trying to understand how we can unblock the situation
[13:20] <mup> PR snapcraft#2244 opened: snap: add the https transport <Created by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2244>
[13:25] <seb128> Chipaca, sorry, try is making that difficult, I was saying
[13:25] <seb128> Chipaca, well "break" would mean no autorefresh on some connections, if we are afraid that buggy info could lead to system never updating we could force a refresh anyway after $peiod
[13:25] <seb128>  Chipaca, users are typically on a metered connection for a limited time, being on the safe side by default and forcing after a longer period would probably save most users to hist a problem
[13:25] <seb128> Chipaca, anyway let me know if we could help giving confidence in that feature by any mean
[13:58] <Chipaca> mvo: so do we need to do anything beyond tweaking the config? Is there a public test phase needed still?
[13:59] <mvo> Chipaca: a good question
[14:04] <pstolowski> mvo: shall i push to a new github branch and we can set up a ppa from that?
[14:14] <mvo> pstolowski: yeah, that sounds reasonable
[14:14] <mvo> pstolowski: (in a meeting right now (and after this one too) so may be a bit slow replying but you can just use a personal PPA probably)
[14:15] <Chipaca> pedronis: snapshotstate is green again if you want to take a last look
[14:15] <pstolowski> mvo: right, will try that (haven't touched ppas for >2 years, let's see how it goes ;))
[14:19] <mvo> pstolowski: good luck
[14:30] <pedronis> Chipaca: lgtm
[14:30] <Chipaca> whee
[14:31] <Chipaca> gasp
[14:31] <Chipaca> now what
[14:31] <mup> PR snapd#5187 closed: overlord: introduce snapshotstate <Created by chipaca> <Merged by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5187>
[14:32] <pedronis> Chipaca: celebration time :)
[14:33] <Chipaca> pedronis: :-)
[14:38] <mvo> Chipaca: \o/
[14:38] <mup> PR snapd#5785 opened: tests,interfaces: run interfaces-account-control on UC18 <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5785>
[15:04] <pedronis> mvo: core16 is a base right ?
[15:04] <pedronis> like core18
[15:08] <pedronis> nvm checked myself
[15:09] <mvo> pedronis: correct
[15:09] <mvo> pedronis: (sorry in a meeting so a bit slow)
[15:12] <Chipaca> pedronis: snap info tells you :-)
[15:13] <pedronis> Chipaca: that's what I did indeed
[15:13] <Chipaca> pedronis: :-)
[15:23] <Chipaca> pedronis: in state.State's Prune(), writing() is called only if needed. deleteExpiredWarnings was calling writing() unconditionally, when it was a public method. Should I make it smarter?
[15:23] <Chipaca> pedronis: should I drop it and move that logic into Prune directly?
[15:23] <Chipaca> the latter would be consistent with what's there already
[15:24] <pedronis> Chipaca: I'm kind of eoding,  yea, all the pruning is in Prune,
[15:24] <Chipaca> pedronis: ok
[15:24] <Chipaca> pedronis: have a good'un
[15:28]  * cachio lunch
[15:32] <Saviq> sergiusens: so here's a new issue with beta... https://travis-ci.org/CanonicalLtd/multipass/jobs/425225732 snapcraft can't find a package... https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cmake-extras is it looking at the host package list?
[15:36] <sergiusens> Saviq: sent a log privately, I have a workaround for that though
[15:44] <mup> PR snapcraft#2245 opened: docker: support for testing snapcraft in proposed <Created by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2245>
[15:56] <Chipaca> niemeyer: #5514 is ready for another look if you're idle (har har har)
[15:56] <mup> PR #5514: daemon, overlord/state: warnings pipeline <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5514>
[16:05] <mvo> zyga: quick brainstorm - I'm renaming idleManager to ecoManager - or do you have a better name. I think it captures the idea behind it better than idle manager as its not about idle but more about nothing to manage
[16:05] <zyga> mmm
[16:06] <zyga> do you think that ecoManager could do more things (eventually) that fit into resource preservation concept?
[16:06] <zyga> like unmounting unused things
[16:06] <mvo> or cleaning unused bases
[16:06] <zyga> or running aggressive gc once in a while
[16:06] <zyga> or something like
[16:06] <zyga> janitorManager
[16:06] <zyga> (though I think ecoManager is better)
[16:07] <zyga> or we could call it "mother"
[16:07] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Thanks!
[16:07] <niemeyer> mvo: Do we need a manager for that?
[16:07] <mvo> sleeper
[16:07] <mvo> niemeyer: not strictly but it has some nice properties
[16:07] <niemeyer> mvo: It sounds like this is a cross-concern issue
[16:07] <mvo> niemeyer: like that it ties use into the ensure loop
[16:07] <niemeyer> mvo: Where every manager would have something to say about it
[16:08] <mvo> niemeyer: we want the check to run after the ensure loop of the other managers
[16:08] <mvo> niemeyer: but I'm open for ideas of course
[16:08] <zyga> niemeyer: ohhh
[16:08] <zyga> nice idea
[16:09] <niemeyer> mvo: It just feels like this is something managers will need a chance to do something about, otherwise we'll have a manager that will be fiddling with resources of other managers
[16:09] <zyga> manager.SaveThePlanet
[16:09] <zyga> and then a manager could do something in response to that
[16:09] <Chipaca> return false
[16:10] <mvo> niemeyer: so far the bits we check are: a) number of snaps (snapstate should provide this) b) is it seeded (devicestate) c) minimal amount of time passed d) pending changes e) active daemon connections. plus it should be run after ensure ideally
[16:11] <mup> PR snapcraft#2245 closed: docker: support for testing snapcraft in proposed <Created by sergiusens> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2245>
[16:12] <niemeyer> mvo: Sounds like something we should run less often than ensure itself
[16:12] <mvo> niemeyer: I can sketch out a design that adds something like "CanGoSocketActivated" to the managers (the name sucks, just here as a stawman) and then do the other checks in its own package and/or daemon or overlord. syncing with the ensure loop is the open question in this design. should I create a hook in the overlord for this? where callbacks can be added
[16:13] <niemeyer> Hmmm
[16:13] <mvo> niemeyer: right, we can run it less often its just a nice property if its in sync with ensure in some way (so maybe not every ensure )
[16:14] <mvo> (but of course it does not have to be in sync if that makes the other design nicer)
[16:14] <Chipaca> I wonder if we can do it by niling out managers when they have nothing to do
[16:14] <Chipaca> and then if every manager has gone, we go away entirely
[16:15] <niemeyer> mvo: The earlier a-d list sounds a bit uneven
[16:15] <Chipaca> anyway. I'm going afk for a while, will bbl (going for a run before it rains)
[16:15] <niemeyer> mvo: Some of those aren't something that can be in a manager
[16:16] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Enjoy!
[16:16] <mvo> niemeyer: the active connections is a problem, the other bits fit ok. but again, happy to do it differently
[16:17] <niemeyer> mvo: The time passed also feels misplaced
[16:17] <mvo> niemeyer: I need to have dinner now but will read scrollback and also ponder about how to do it without a manager
[16:17] <niemeyer> mvo: Time passed since what?  Feels like this should be in the routine that would attempt to go socket activated
[16:17] <niemeyer> mvo: SOunds good.. we can catch up tomorrow morning as well
[16:17] <niemeyer> mvo: Have a good one
[16:17] <mvo> niemeyer: the time since startup is what is used right now
[16:18] <mvo> niemeyer: yeah, tomorrow is also fine, lets see if we can find some nice pattern :)
[16:18] <mvo>  s/pattern/place/
[16:18] <mvo> niemeyer: thank you!
[16:48] <seb128> back on stable internet!
[16:48] <seb128> Chipaca, sorry for trying to start a conversation on a bumpy internet, that was not a good idea
[16:48] <seb128> Chipaca, anyway might be a good topic for Brussel, if we can help building trust on that feature/stack in some way that would be nice
[16:49] <seb128> users tend to hate bugs that lead to costs (understandably)
[17:01] <ackk> hi, is there a way to unset a snap config option (as opposed to set it to "")?
[17:01] <zyga> set it to null
[17:02] <ackk> zyga, how do you do that?
[17:03] <ackk> zyga, you mean set foo=null ?
[17:03] <zyga> snap set foo value=null
[17:03] <zyga> I think
[17:03] <zyga> yes
[17:03] <ackk> oh, so that's a special value
[17:03] <ackk> I mean, it's not treated as string
[17:03] <zyga> no, that's literally null :)
[17:03] <zyga> yeah, all input is yaml
[17:03] <zyga> I heard
[17:03] <zyga> or json
[17:03] <zyga> or ...
[17:03] <zyga> now I'm confused
[17:03] <ackk> zyga, although it will still show in get -d, it won't be "unset"
[17:03] <ackk> (that's fine, just wondering if there was a way to actually unset
[17:04] <zyga> ah
[17:04] <zyga> mmm
[17:04] <zyga> maybe there is
[17:04] <zyga> hold on
[17:07] <zyga> I don't see any
[17:07] <zyga> pstolowski: ^ maybe you can clarify
[17:08] <cachio> pedronis, hey, I am trying to push a snap to the staging store and I see this error
[17:08] <cachio> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/9dyxZZgkvY/
[17:09] <cachio> do I need to make any change in the test account?
[17:14] <pedronis> cachio: are you logged in ? what does snapcraft list-registered says ?
[17:15] <cachio> pedronis, it gives the list of snaps for the user
[17:15] <pedronis> then not sure
[17:15] <pedronis> it's a strange error
[17:16] <cachio> pedronis, who could help with that error?
[17:16] <cachio> on the store side
[17:16] <pedronis> cachio: I would try to login again, is that snap in the list of list-registered you get?
[17:16] <cachio> pedronis, ok
[17:17] <cachio> pedronis, yes it is
[17:17] <pedronis> it's definitely strange,  if relogin doesn't help, ping celso maybe
[17:19] <cachio> same errror after relogin
[17:19] <cachio> I'll ping him
[17:19] <pedronis> snapcraft --debug output might help in case
[17:20] <pstolowski> zyga: there's no way to unset
[17:21] <pstolowski> ackk ^
[17:21] <pstolowski> that's a known issue/limitation
[17:27] <cachio> pedronis, is it using the staging store? https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/rFyBk3NTG5/
[17:28] <pedronis> cachio: no
[17:28] <pedronis> something is off with your env
[17:28] <pedronis> 'url': 'https://dashboard.snapcraft.io/dev/api/snap-push/
[17:29] <pedronis> or there's  a bug in snapcraft, not respecting something for different ops
[17:29] <pedronis> a *new* bug
[17:30] <cachio> pedronis, that could be
[17:30] <cachio> thanks for the support
[17:31] <pedronis> as I said list-registered showing the snap but push failing is a bit strange
[17:31] <cachio> pedronis, I'll check with snapcraft guys
[17:31] <pedronis> (though the permission are different for the two ops)
[17:31] <cachio> kyrofa, hey
[17:31] <cachio> kyrofa, any idea why it could be not poiting to the staging store?
[17:31] <cachio> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/rFyBk3NTG5/
[17:39] <kyrofa> cachio, sudo might have something to do with it-- have you tried without?
[17:40] <niemeyer> Chipaca: LGTM!
[17:41] <cachio> kyrofa, that was the problem
[17:42] <cachio> kyrofa, tx
[18:15] <pedronis> cachio:  ah, sorry I didn't notice that
[18:15] <cachio> pedronis, yes, me neither :(
[18:17] <ackk> pstolowski|afk, I see, thanks
[18:44] <Chipaca> niemeyer: excellent, thank you
[19:33] <TorbenLeif> Hello, I am trying to figure out how to make snappy stop updating my VLC installation to any other versions.
[19:38] <TorbenLeif> I've read the man file but I don't see a way to stop snap from refreshing a certain app :/
[20:06] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: you can't, basically
[20:06] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: and you probably shouldn't :-) why are you wanting to not update vlc?
[20:48] <TorbenLeif> @Chipaca VLC Media Player, versions past 3.0.1 broke a certain feature I use regularly and so I keep having to force snappy to reinstall vlc_195.snap.
[20:49] <TorbenLeif> Unfortunately VLC doesn't release any other packages so I can avoid using Snappy with it, so it sounds like I'm stuck having to do this every day :/
[20:54] <mup> PR snapcraft#2246 opened: packaging: cleanup extension usage in setup.py <Created by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2246>
[21:08] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: have you spoken to the devs? they're usually very receptive of that sort of feedback
[21:10] <Chipaca> my memory is terrible but I think thresh was working on that at some point?
[21:10] <ogra> yep, he is the vlc snap maintainer
[21:11] <ogra> Chipaca, i thought if you use snap revert you will not get auto-upgraded til the next release shows up in the store ?
[21:12] <ogra> i onder why TorbenLeif has to do that "every day" ... given that feature
[21:13] <ogra> *wonder even
[21:27] <mup> PR snapcraft#2244 closed: snap: add the https transport <Created by sergiusens> <Merged by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2244>
[21:27] <Chipaca> ogra: I suspect the have the .snap, and install it every day
[21:27] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: what does "snap list --all vlc" print?
[21:28] <ogra> yeah ... revert would be a lot better than sideloading the snap file
[21:28] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: as ogra says, if you "snap revert", snapd will not auto-upgrade you to the same revision -- a new revision would get auto-installed, but not the same one every time
[21:28] <Chipaca> ogra: revert is probably the least known of what we think of as the main features
[21:29] <Chipaca> ogra: it's not really sideloading as they have the assertion :-)
[21:29] <ogra> yeah ... but given its beauty it should really get more promotion ;)
[21:29] <ogra> ah
[21:29] <Chipaca> ogra: ironically if they didn't have the assertion it'd be actual sideloading (i.e. --dangerous) and it wouldn't update
[21:29] <ogra> oh, indeed !
[21:37] <mup> PR snapd#5786 opened: tests: update prepare/restore for nightly suite <Created by sergiocazzolato> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5786>
[21:42] <TorbenLeif> @Chipaca vlc   3.0.3-1-3-gf09fd0d  365  stable    videolan✓  disabled
[21:42] <TorbenLeif> vlc   3.0.4               555  stable    videolan✓  disabled
[21:42] <TorbenLeif> vlc   3.0.1-4-g14a4897    190  stable    videolan✓  -
[21:42] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: and which is the one you want to use?
[21:42] <TorbenLeif> 190 is the one I want to use permanently.
[21:42] <TorbenLeif> I have it installed now, but tomorrow it'll update again.
[21:43] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: ok, so try this
[21:43] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: first: snap refresh vlc
[21:43] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: that'll leave you with the one you don't want
[21:43] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: next: snap revert vlc --revision=190
[21:43] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: that'll leave you with the one you do want, and _blacklist the newer one_
[21:44] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: you can confirm this by doing 'snap refresh' (without explicitly asking for vlc)
[21:44] <Chipaca> if you 'snap refresh vlc' you un-blacklist, if I remember correctly (but i could be wrong! and i'm too tired to go look right now)
[21:45] <TorbenLeif> This works, but once VLC releases a new version I just have to do this?
[21:45] <TorbenLeif> Or is it a perma solution?
[21:45] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: the next different revision that gets pushed to tip of stable will replace the one you want, yes
[21:45] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: in the meantime, _talk to the vlc maintainers_
[21:46] <TorbenLeif> Okay, that is great. Thank you so much for the help Chipaca!
[21:46] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: what is the feature that breaks, by the way?
[21:47] <TorbenLeif> Chipaca The capture card displays a weird zoomed in disorted image post 3.0.1
[21:48] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: that seriously sounds like something they'd want to fix if they knew it was happening
[21:48] <TorbenLeif> I am using an AV2USB adapter that works fine on any program as a regular video0 input except VLC post 3.0.1
[21:48] <TorbenLeif> I talked to them but they have a pushy bug reporting process that I don't want to do (it involves signing up on a bug tracker and such).
[21:49] <Chipaca> sounds terrible
[21:49] <Chipaca> much easier to refresh the snap every day … (?!?)
[21:49] <TorbenLeif> It's not bad if you're really into the community, but just as a guy wanting to inform them of a problem they might be interested in knowing about, it's too much work.
[21:50] <TorbenLeif> Writing a script to schedule the necessary commands to revert isn't hard now that I know the commands ^^
[21:50] <Chipaca> I now regret having helped
[21:51] <TorbenLeif> Because I don't want to take pictures, learn the necessary debugging commands to create the bug report and sign up for a service to do it?
[21:52] <TorbenLeif> I gave them the logs they wanted in irc.
[21:52] <TorbenLeif> Bah, idc. Thank you for the help anyway.
[21:52] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: because you'd rather spend my time than yours
[21:53] <TorbenLeif> Not necessarily true.
[21:53] <TorbenLeif> If I made the bug report it isn't fixed, it is reported.
[21:53] <mup> PR snapd#5787 opened: tests: update the listing expression to support core from other channels <Created by sergiocazzolato> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5787>
[21:53] <TorbenLeif> Seeings as I am not a programmer for the project, either way I still need a temporary fix.
[21:54] <TorbenLeif> The VLC channel didn't have a solution to temporarily fix the problem, so after a couple hours I decided reverting constantly is the best solution for me.
[21:54] <TorbenLeif> I was unsure on how to do that, so I needed help with reverting snap packages. You helped teach me that.
[21:59] <TorbenLeif> Even to that effect, I googled for a solution well prior to coming here and read the man page. Unfortunately documentation on snappy is lacking in this regard, and the feature I wanted didn't even exist. So no, I would have much rather found the solution during the time I spent than take up yours.
[22:07] <Chipaca> TorbenLeif: I'm sorry the manpage didn't help. Reading the documentation for revert I see it's missing a mention of the blacklisting, indeed
[22:07] <Chipaca> sorry for that; i'll address it tomorrow
[22:12] <TorbenLeif> No need to apologize for documentation, it's a community project, not a business. Anywho, thanks again and have a good day.
[22:48] <mup> PR snapcraft#2247 opened: yaml loading: properly handle unhashable types <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/2247>
[23:48] <mup> PR snapd#5788 opened: tests: add publisher regex to fix the snap-info test pass on sru <Created by sergiocazzolato> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/5788>


[11:35] <LjL> Lhademmor: i've done that now, but i'm not sure it's really useless to just get a list of players when one types !exaile
[11:36] <LjL> s/useless/useful/
[11:36] <Seveas> leladia, grep -v 'sleep\|wake' bla.log
[11:36] <Lhademmor> LjL, yah, maybe you're right
[11:36] <Lhademmor> !rhythmbox
[11:36] <ubotu> Audio (Ogg, MP3...) players: Audacious, Banshee, Beep Media Player, Quod Libet, Rhythmbox, Exaile, XMMS (GTK/Gnome based) and Amarok, JuK (Qt/KDE based).  Video players: Totem, Xine, MPlayer, VLC, Kaffeine - See also !codecs
[11:36] <Lhademmor> see?
[11:36] <LjL> Lhademmor: yeah, i'm still not sure it's useful though. it won't hurt either i suppose.
[11:37] <jodih2> hi guys
[11:37] <Baumer> Does anyone have Wireless working on ubuntu with the Broadcom 1390 chipset?
[11:37] <leladia> Seveas: let me also try that and see
[11:37] <peter_> can someone guide me aas to how to use freepops with thunderbird?....i'd like to retrieve my mail from hotmail
[11:37] <Baumer> ohhh just found a faq on it
[11:37] <Baumer> hope it works
[11:38] <jodih2> just installed ubuntu  for the first time
[11:38] <jodih2> and have a stupid question
[11:38] <soundray> jodih2: congrats
[11:38] <__mikem> !ask
[11:38] <Creeture> peter_: I don't know if it still exists, but there used to be a "gotmail" that did that very well.
[11:38] <ubotu> Don't ask to ask a question. Just ask your question :)
[11:38] <soundray> jodih2: on installing, not on the stupid question.
[11:38] <Seveas> soundray, heh ;)
[11:38] <peter_> i have got mail but i have problems getting it to install
[11:38] <jtkiefer> what's the command to create a link in the console to an application, for example so I can type in BitchX and have it open /usr/bin/bitchx
[11:38] <Creeture> peter_: What problems?
[11:38] <jodih2> i used vi to edit the ip address and i dont know how to save the changes
[11:39] <peter_> it tries to remove a bunch of stuff on installation
[11:39] <dstadulis> soundray: Got it working so I can get the info I need, thanks veyr much
[11:39] <peter_> then it just fails
[11:39] <soundray> dstadulis: well done
[11:39] <usr13> jodih2, :wq
[11:39] <__mikem> I didn't know you can use vi to edit an ip address
[11:39] <Seveas> jodih2, hit ESC and then ZZ
[11:39] <jodih2> thanks
[11:39] <Creeture> jtkiefer: man bash, look at aliases. Something like alias BitchX='/usr/bin/bitchx' will work.
[11:40] <kitche> __mikem: most likely he editted the interface file :)
[11:40] <juro> hi, I am running a 2.6.15-23-server kernel (Dapper) on a server I am administrating. Now I need to upgrade to a 2.6.20 (at least) - how do I go about this?
[11:40] <jtkiefer> Creeture, ok, thanks
[11:40] <jodih2> edited the interface file as it needed a static
[11:40] <soundray> kitche: or /etc/hosts ?
[11:40] <Seveas> juro, you upgrade to feisty or gutsy
[11:40] <Creeture> peter_: Is your system up-to-date with packages? I just did an aptitude install gotmail and it installed.
[11:40] <peter_> yea as far as i can tell
[11:41] <peter_> it begins the install then tells me it cant remove a certain file
[11:41] <soundray> Seveas: via edgy, you might add...
[11:41] <Creeture> peter_: If you do aptitude update && aptitude dist-upgrade && aptitude -f install it's all clean?
[11:41] <jodih2> thanks u guys are a great help to a newcomer
[11:41] <juro> seveas, this is a production machine running as a file and a imap server. it is located in Austria, I am in Cape Town - I really don't think I should upgrade that much ....
[11:41] <erUSUL> juro: easiest way? get the linux-image deb of feisty for your hardware (server version 64 bits whatever) and install it on dapper.
[11:41] <Creeture> juro: You're not chicken are you? ;)
[11:41] <Seveas> juro, then you need to find a 2.6.20 kernel that works on dapper. You might have luck with the kernel packages from feisty but I very much doubt it
[11:42] <juro> creeture, :)
[11:42] <juro> seveas, so there is no *easy* way?
[11:42] <leladia> Seveas: grep -v 'sleep\|wake' bla.log (i tried it but it is not also filtering out wake. it filters sleep)
[11:42] <soundray> juro: of all procedures available to you, upgrading is probably the best-tested.
[11:43] <peter_> i ran the command but i'm not too sure what i'm looking at
[11:43] <jtkiefer> Creeture, works like a charm, thanks
[11:43] <soundray> peter_: are you trying to install an Ubuntu package, or third-party software?
[11:44] <armando> ubuntu espao
[11:44] <erUSUL> !es | armando
[11:44] <ubotu> armando: Si busca ayuda en Espaol por favor entre en los canales #ubuntu-es, #kubuntu-es o #edubuntu-es, all obtendr mas ayuda.
[11:44] <juro> soundray, I am trying to write to an external ntfs harddrive (= backup) and installed ntfs-3g, that tells me that I have a "deficient kernel version", therefore I should upgrade to "2.6.20" ....
[11:44] <peter_> i'm trying to install gotmail.....or make freepops work with thuunderbird
[11:45] <Creeture> Jtkiefer: Put the alias command in your .bashrc or create a .bash_aliases and uncomment that in your .bashrc to make it persist.
[11:45] <erUSUL> juro: backing up to a ntfs drive does not sound to me ike a good idea but maybe i'm biased ;)
[11:45] <juro> erUSUL, as good as any other backup to an external harddrive.
[11:45] <soundray> erUSUL: should be okay, backing up to a tar file or so
[11:45] <pgavin> anyone have any idea why I don't have any menus in ubuntustudio?
[11:45] <juro> erSUL, and the backup should be readable from a standard windows machine ...
[11:46] <Jtkiefer> Creeture, would .bashrc be in my home directory?
[11:46] <soundray> juro: fat32...
[11:46] <Seveas> Jtkiefer, yes
[11:46] <Creeture> Jtkiefer: Yep.
[11:46] <pgavin> I mean, my application menu is empty :/
[11:46] <Jtkiefer> what everyone says is true, ubuntu is fun and is very powerful but it's a pain in the ass to learn
[11:46] <juro> soundray, I tried that -> it cannot keep the access rights on file level
[11:46] <soundray> Jtkiefer: you can extend that statement to computers in general.
[11:47] <soundray> juro: avoid that pitfall by backing up to a tarfile or three
[11:47] <erUSUL> juro: that's what i was worried about... the idea of a windows OS being in charge of my backup XD
[11:47] <Jtkiefer> soundray, oops, I didn't mean Ubuntu I meant *nix, ubuntu is actually easier than most *nix
[11:47] <juro> soundray, not necessary. the learning curve with a windows machine is way shorter than linux
[11:47] <juro> erUSUL, not in charge. only readable by it.
[11:47] <Creeture> Jtkiefer: You think Ubuntu is a pain in the ass? You should try one of the unfriendly distributions. Try learning Solaris or AIX or try starting an install of Slackware from 1993.
[11:48] <soundray> juro: not if you start from scratch, ie. a newbie with no computer exposure at all.
[11:48] <Auckla> Jtkiefer, Its not so bad.
[11:48] <Jtkiefer> soundray, and to a certain extent your right but macs for example are very new user friendly (waits for the boo's and hisses to subside) so to a certain extent is windows if you don't try anything crazy
[11:48] <Auckla> Creeture, Absolutely!
[11:48] <angasule> what exactly is the update policy for programs in a stable ubuntu branch? for example, a program has a bug that causes a crash and has been fixed upstream, any chance we'll benefit from it or we have to wait till gutsy?
[11:48] <Jtkiefer> Creeture, oh I've tried freebsd, that was a pain
[11:48] <juro> soundray, even then.
[11:48] <alcaponage> Can anyone help me with my compiz fusion?
[11:48] <Jtkiefer> creeture, I know there's worse too, I'm just not about to try them
[11:48] <peter_> does anyone use gotmail or freepops?
[11:48] <Creeture> Jtkiefer: Yep. There's some real UNIX for you. No pretty buttons, nobody to hold your hand.
[11:48] <soundray> Jtkiefer: OS 9 was newbie friendly. Mac OS X is besotten with idiosyncracies
[11:48] <Auckla> Jtkiefer, FreeBSD is my OS of choice. :) At least for server side aplicatoins and routers. :)
[11:48] <Creeture> peter_: Did you get gotmail to install?
[11:49] <peter_> nope
[11:49] <soundray> juro: not in my experience.
[11:49] <peter_> i got freepops to install though
[11:49] <Creeture> peter_: What's your exact error?
[11:49] <peter_> one sec
[11:49] <erUSUL> juro: i'm only taking the oportunity to maock up windows a little do not take me very seriusly ;). As soundray says just backup to .tar* files or cpio archives to preserve permisions etc
[11:49] <soundray> juro: I got my technophobe dad to reacquaint himself with computers via Ubuntu, when he had given up on Windows.
[11:49] <DM|> Can everyone look at this : http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/39407/ , maybe someone knows the solution
[11:49] <juro> soundray, I am talking about a user (like a grand mother that wants to use the internet)
[11:49] <Jtkiefer> one word, OS/2
[11:50] <peter_> error ...cannot install libnet-perl
[11:50] <juro> soundray, and he had (and wanted) to learn a lot from scratch - not many users want that
[11:50] <soundray> juro: I am talking about someone who needs to learn even the most basic metaphors (Desktop? What? A vertical desktop?)
[11:50] <Creeture> peter_: What's the reason?
[11:51] <riddlebox> any idea how to fix an error from evolution saying summary and folder mismatch even after sync?
[11:51] <usr13> peter_, sudo apt-get install -f libnet-perl
[11:51] <keir> hello, i was wondering how to run  a program automatically after logging in with GDM to openbox
[11:51] <mcphail> 2
[11:51] <soundray> juro: no, he didn't want anything at all, except be able to read Wikipedia and write letters. It's like I managed to tear a tiny hole in a big curtain to make him peep through.
[11:51] <peter_> ok but when i try to install that file it tries to remove a bunch of other apps
[11:51] <usr13> apt-get -f install libnet-perl
[11:52] <mtx1> anyone know what would cause terminal to hang up when i open it the window opens but it doesnt give me a $ for about 2-3 minutes its like its frozen. i just restored from a backup and restarted and its doing that now?? i have tried to reinstall it but did not fix the problem
[11:52] <Creeture> peter_: What does it try to uninstall? Something on your machine is broken.
[11:52] <juro> soundray, given. then again, not everyone has an experienced linux user as a son ... to guide them through the learning process.
[11:53] <kitche> juro: same can be said for windows :)
[11:53] <Auckla> juro, Ubuntu to me is probably the easiest flavor of linux to get somebody into. ":)
[11:53] <soundray> juro: I didn't guide him at all. I installed it with autologin and left it up to him.
[11:53] <Auckla> I started with SlakWare 4.0 When I was in like the 6th grade. :P
[11:53] <soundray> juro: he does ring me or my brother occasionally when he gets stuck.
[11:53] <Seveas> Ubuntu is way easier to learn than windows. Most people forget they actually have years of windows experience before they say Ubuntu is hard...
[11:53] <soundray> juro: fortunately, we can ssh in and have a look around...
[11:54] <juro> true, but there are more windows users than linux users. and yes, ubuntu goes a long way (I had to give it up though, as a lot of necessary programs don't work on Ubuntu - yet)
[11:54] <peter_> when i run apt-get -f install libnet-perl it says that i have a number of unmet dependencies
[11:54] <mtx1> i wish i would have started linux about 10 years ago when i first got into computers...instead i WASTED all my time with winblows
[11:54] <soundray> Seveas: well spoken
[11:54] <usr13> Windows is harder than Linux.
[11:54] <Creeture> peter_: Are you sure it's not trying to install them instead of uninstall?
[11:54] <mtx1> juro: use virtual box for you winblows stuff
[11:54] <SpiffyBalak> hey, does anyone know how to stop xine from autoplaying inserted CDs? I'm in Xfce.
[11:54] <SpiderPig> usr13 windows and linux are two different things
[11:55] <soundray> juro: it's a different world. I can't switch back to Windows now, because a lot of "necessary" programs aren't available there or cost money.
[11:55] <Auckla> Blah get yourself a cheap nother computer. And you can put any flavor of *nix on it. And play with it till you break it, then play with it again.
[11:55] <usr13> SpiderPig, How so?
[11:55] <SpiderPig> windows has its charm in that its a gigantic nsa backdoor
[11:55] <Seveas> SpiderPig, :)
[11:55] <pmo_> linux been mostly a developper toy from my point of view, i don't know if it will ever change, but this has lasted long
[11:55] <SpiderPig> ;)
[11:55] <usr13> Windows and Linux (as we refer to them are computer operating systems.
[11:55] <juro> mtx1, that is hard when you are doing extensive photo retouching with photoshop (and no, gimp is not an alternative) or Lightroom
[11:55] <peter_> well in synaptic it says packages to be removed ....and alltray is one of them .,...which is installed annd works fine
[11:55] <josiah> k9copy isnt copying this movie for some reason. It gets stuck on authorizing. Is there another application I can use?
[11:55] <Seveas> SpiderPig, I'm very afraid that that actually may be true :/
[11:55] <SpiderPig> usr13 i reffere to windows as toilet paper sir. thank you very much.
[11:56] <Seveas> anyway, let's get back to ubuntu support instead of ubuntu-vs-windows discussions
[11:56] <SpiderPig> seveas it is true. the same is true with lotus and google products. these firms know so much about private people you cannot believe it.
[11:56] <mtx1> ahh i c yea if you use photoshop stay away from the virutal box =)
[11:56] <Seveas> before some people get religious about it
[11:56] <soundray> I like windows. My house would be darker without them. -- How did we manage to go so far offtopic...
[11:56] <Auckla> soundray, ROFL.
[11:56] <usr13> SpiderPig, haha... I like the comparison but that is a bit harsh.
[11:57] <juro> seveas, true - not supporting w-vs-l, just writing out of personal expreience
[11:57] <SpiderPig> ill end there. i told what i know. think whatever you wish
[11:57] <usr13> But either way you slice it, Linux is easier.  It's easier to install, easier to use, easier to maintain.
[11:57] <DM|> Can everyone look at this : http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/39407/ , maybe someone knows the solution
[11:57] <josiah> would DVD::Rip be what I am looking for?
[11:57] <SpiderPig> usr13 linux is open and free. perfect for the future.
[11:57] <Creeture> peter_: What're you running? Feisty?
[11:57] <peter_> yup
[11:57] <SlimeyPete> josiah: it'll rip a DVD to an AVI
[11:58] <peter_> it tries to remove packages like acidrip and alien
[11:58] <soundray> josiah: k9copy is among the best you will get. If it gets stuck, the copy protection works.
[11:58] <usr13> The windows user has to deal with anti-virus software and anti-spiware and lots of other issues that Linux users don't have to bother with.  Linux is a lot easier.
[11:58] <Seveas> DM|, looks like you're missing some libraries... is your system up-to-date and is ubuntu-desktop installed?
[11:58] <josiah> SlimeyPete: I want to make it into an iso so that it get dvdquality and can burn onto a dvd-r
[11:58] <Seveas> !offtopic | usr13
[11:58] <ubotu> usr13: #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, #ubuntu+1 supports the development version of Ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic is for random chatter. Welcome!
[11:58] <pmo_> but i don't much about ubuntu.. i had some experiences with debian, suse, slackware, yygdrasil.. never tried gentoo.. while i tend to be attracted by bsd those days.. i like the makefile spirit
[11:58] <SlimeyPete> josiah: I don't think dvd::rip does that
[11:58] <SpiderPig> usr13 but in linux you have to deal with firewalls and rootkits
[11:58] <SlimeyPete> it didn't last time I used it, but that was a couple of years ago
[11:58] <josiah> SlimeyPete: ok thank you.
[11:59] <SpiderPig> usr13 its not like you dont need to use your brain and take protection with linux
[11:59] <recon> How do you type ASCII character SOH? (octal 001, hex 0x1)
[11:59] <Sorcererbob> one thing I'm concerned about is that as linux becomes more popular, it will begin to suffer from small poppy syndrome, and viruses etc will start to target it
[11:59] <josiah> soundray: grrr
[11:59] <DM|> seveas yep all up to date
[11:59] <eric> DOH!!! I accidentally booted up ubuntu with vmplayer whilst having the same ubuntu booted as the host -.-
[11:59] <DM|> seveas also have ubuntu-desktop installed
[11:59] <SpiderPig> usr13 install 'rkhunter' rootkithunter very good software.
[11:59] <eric> that screwed everything up =\
[11:59] <Seveas> DM|, could you pastebin your sources.list?
[11:59] <[DMC] > how do I tell the system to check the group file? I added myself to a group but it is not seeing it.
[11:59] <Seveas> eric, heh, that sounds like a bad idea :)
[11:59] <usr13> Sorcererbob, How do you figure?
[12:00] <jrib> [DMC] : log in again
[12:00] <DM|> seveas its gutsy, but no one in ubuntu+1 is having the same problem, nor is there anything online.
[12:00] <DM|> seveas one sec
[12:00] <DM|> !pastebin
[12:00] <ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
[12:00] <[DMC] > I have to restart X just to do this?
[12:00] <Seveas> usr13, linux isn't inherently immune against attacks. Rootkits and privilige escalation bugs still exist...
[12:00] <eric> Seveas, after being through the ubuntu system recovery thing twice... finding things strangely broken (some file corruption at that)
[12:00] <soundray> [DMC] : it works after the next login. If you can't log out, do a 'ssh localhost'
[12:00] <Gin> hi
[12:00] <eric> Seveas, I am really worried that I did permanent damage
[12:00] <Sorcererbob> usr13: the only reason microsoft operating systems are targetted are because they're popular. If they weren't, then there would be no point targeting them. So if Linux gets more popular than MS, it seems likely that viruses and w hatnot should start targetting linux
[12:00] <SpiderPig> seveas as i said
[12:00] <Gin> how do you reload the sound driver?
[12:00] <DM|> seveas http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/39410/
[12:00] <SpiffyBalak> virus immunity could attract lots of the paranoid technophobes
[12:00] <usr13> Anyway, as the bot said, this philosophy discussion is OT
[12:00] <SpiderPig> seveas hello can you see me or am i banned?
[12:01] <Seveas> SpiderPig, I can see you but I'm helping people...
[12:01] <x-fak> hi
[12:01] <SpiderPig> seveas oh :)
[12:01] <Shapeshifter> offtopic: Does anyone know what tone that is at the beginning of crank? A ringtone or something ^^
[12:01] <SpiderPig> seveas install rkhunter very good for removal of rootkits
[12:01] <x-fak> how do i check my ubuntu version, uname -a dont tell me
[12:01] <SpiderPig> i installed it today
[12:01] <timstokman> hi, i have no /etc/wpa_supplicant.conf in my installation of gutsy gibbon beta installation, has it changed location?
[12:01] <jrib> !offtopic | Shapeshifter
[12:01] <ubotu> Shapeshifter: #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, #ubuntu+1 supports the development version of Ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic is for random chatter. Welcome!
[12:01] <Seveas> x-fak, lsb_release -a
[12:01] <Shapeshifter> k thx
[12:01] <VWJ1bnR1> What happened to the GDM?  When I installed KDE, KDM is lost!
[12:01] <kitche> SpiderPig: it's also good for false postives sometimes also
[12:01] <x-fak> ty Seveas
[12:02] <VWJ1bnR1> Sorry... GDM is lost!
[12:02] <SpiderPig> kitche most bugs ahve been fixed though, no?
[12:02] <kitche> VWJ1bnR1: kdm takes over when you install kde
[12:02] <soundray> VWJ1bnR1: 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure gdm' to change back
[12:02] <Gin> !sound
[12:02] <ubotu> If you're having problems with sound, first ensure ALSA is selected, by double clicking on the volume control, then File -> Change Device (ALSA Mixer). If that fails, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Sound - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoundTroubleshooting - http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php?page=DmixPlugin - For playing audio files, see !Players and !MP3
[12:02] <VWJ1bnR1> soundray: That didn't work.
[12:02] <soundray> VWJ1bnR1: can you elaborate
[12:02] <x-fak> i have dapper 6.06 is it worthy to install last version ?
[12:02] <Creeture> peter_: Where are you now? Anything installed yet?
[12:03] <usr13> x-fak, Yes
[12:03] <Creeture> x-fak: What do you use it for?
[12:03] <eric> Seveas, the damage was all the drivers messing up, which was corrected via the system recovery, and many gnome config files going awry
[12:03] <VWJ1bnR1> Well, I got the error message saying:
[12:03] <VWJ1bnR1> invoce-rc.d: initscript gdm, action "reload" failed.
[12:03] <Seveas> eric, a good idea is to rinstall all packages, handy oneliner: dpkg -l | awk '/^ii/{print $2}' | xargs apt-get install --reinstall
[12:03] <VWJ1bnR1> soundray: That wouldn't be so bad, except that I can't login or logout to the GUI login manager.
[12:03] <usr13> x-fak, http://www.ubuntugeek.com/upgrade-ubuntu-610-edgy-eft-to-ubuntu-704-feisty-fawn-2.html
[12:03] <eric> Seveas, I made sure to comment out the 10 second timelimit selection in grub -.-
[12:03] <peter_> nope i have the part about it wanting to remove a bunch of packages open.....thats where i'm stuck right now
[12:04] <eric> Seveas, won't that take a long time? :o
[12:04] <Gin>  sudo rmmod snd_ca0106
[12:04] <Gin> ERROR: Module snd_ca0106 is in use
[12:04] <soundray> VWJ1bnR1: where are you now -- logged in on a virtual console?
[12:04] <x-fak> Creeture> i use it as desktop
[12:04] <Seveas> eric, it will


[13:40] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: what's with the flickering in ff11 when visiting news.google.com?
[13:40] <chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, what flickering?
[13:40] <mdeslaur> when you mouse over stuff, it flickers
[13:40] <mdeslaur> not always, but most articles do
[13:41] <mdeslaur> you don't see that?
[13:42] <mdeslaur> click on one of the categories on the left, such as "Entertainment", and mouse over each article
[13:42] <chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, no, i don't see that
[13:42] <mdeslaur> ok, hrm
[13:43] <mdeslaur> probably just a glitch in the matrix then
[13:43] <mdeslaur> I do seem to have deja-vu of you ignoring one of my bugs


[12:54]  * balloons_ floats in
[13:05]  * flocculant has a drawing pin
[13:16] <balloons_> ohh boy
[13:21] <flocculant> :)
[14:03] <davmor2> balloons: ah don't worry he's only short and can't reach you up there, unless he has a cane and blutac
[14:05] <flocculant> I have a good old fashioned bow of yew, a blunt arrow, blutac and a drawing pin :p
[14:05] <davmor2> equally sufficient
[14:06] <flocculant> :)
[14:07] <flocculant> depends perhaps on whether balloons is helium or just hot air :)
[14:19] <balloons> mm.. quite true. It might not be a refreshing pop, but rather a slow leak
[14:20] <balloons> hiss and a fall to the floor
[14:27] <flocculant> :)


[18:24] <sladen> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/01/ubuntu-tablet-to-compete-with-android-ios/
[18:30] <MrChrisDruif> I was reading that, didn't finish it yet