[06:22] <mborzecki> morning
[06:23] <mvo> mborzecki: good morning
[06:37] <mvo> mborzecki: I cherry-picked 8575 to 2.44
[06:37] <mvo> mborzecki: that is needed, right? we will need a new 2.44.4 with a fix for syscalls with base: core20
[06:38] <mborzecki> mvo: thanks!
[06:38] <mborzecki> mvo: yes, it fixes the problems with libcrypto dependency being injected on centos
[06:39] <mborzecki> mvo: i'll need to add a similar change in downstream packaging for fedora/epel
[06:39] <mvo> ta
[06:40] <zyga> Good morning
[06:41] <zyga> How are you guys?
[06:41] <zyga> I will start late but I will look at opensuse a little today
[06:41] <zyga> I’ll fix our tests there and update the packaging /release
[06:42] <mvo> zyga: hey, I'm good, thanks!
[06:45] <mborzecki> qemu 5.0 is out, supports emulating tpm for arm
[06:45] <zyga> Groovy
[06:46] <zyga> Can we snap it? :-)
[06:52] <mborzecki> mvo: hmm 2.44 travis unit test job runs with different go version?
[06:53] <mborzecki> ah, it's go master
[06:56] <mvo> mborzecki: yeah, just removed that
[06:56] <mvo> mborzecki: I want to see the spread run
[06:57] <mborzecki> i'm out for a bit, and yay it's raining!
[07:04] <pstolowski> morning
[07:04] <mvo> hey pstolowski - good morning
[07:43] <juergh> mvo, zyga can one of you help me with that snapd download, please?
[08:01] <zyga> I will try
[08:01] <zyga> Which version do you need?
[08:22] <zyga> juergh: ^ ?
[08:29] <ogra> did xdg-open change recently ?
[08:29] <ogra> error: error running snapctl: Unknown command `user-open'. Please specify one command of: get, is-connected, restart, services, set, set-health, start, stop or unset
[08:33] <zyga> ogra: hmm, weird
[08:33] <zyga> ogra: perhaps a bug
[08:34] <ogra> i'm not yet sure, might be that the app changes ... the snapctl got me hooked though
[08:34] <ogra> *changed
[08:37]  * zyga breakfast
[08:42] <juergh> zyga, snapd 2.43.3
[08:42] <zyga> ok
[08:42] <zyga> give me a moment please
[08:51] <zyga> juergh: which architecture do you need?
[08:52] <juergh> zyga, amd64
[08:52] <zyga> juergh: hmm, but wait, 2.43.3 is latest stable
[08:52] <zyga> ah
[08:52] <zyga> sorry 44
[08:52]  * zyga needs coffee
[09:59]  * zyga looks at fixing the opensuse build issue now
[10:01] <tpreston> Hi, is there a reason why snapd /etc/profile.d/snapd.sh *appends* snap_bin_path to PATH, rather than prepends?
[10:01] <tpreston> https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/should-snap-bin-be-prepended-to-path/4506
[10:01] <zyga> tpreston: it's a more conservative choice, I suspect
[10:01] <tpreston> I have ctags installed at a system level (because of a package dependency), but I'd prefer to use snapd universal-ctags
[10:02] <tpreston> zyga: I guess so, maybe I should alias ctags then
[10:04] <doko> how can I make how can I make file:///usr/share/doc/python3-doc/html/index.html  work with the chromium snap?
[10:06] <zyga> doko: apart from serving it over http, I guess you cannot
[10:07] <zyga> doko: maybe copy it to ~ ?
[10:09] <doko> zyga: broken by design to access anything in /usr/share/doc ?
[10:09] <zyga> doko: not broken by design
[10:09] <zyga> doko: it's just not designed to access arbitrary host locations
[10:10] <zyga> doko: there are two elements at play, the view of the filesystem and the sandbox
[10:10] <doko> well, copying everything from /usr/share/doc to ~ is not viable
[10:10] <zyga> doko: chromium and your system see different filesystem
[10:10] <zyga> doko: and while /usr/share/doc is probably safe and could be allowed, it's not a general property
[10:10] <doko> is there a bug report about that?
[10:11] <zyga> doko: before you file one, do you have an idea of how it should work?
[10:11] <zyga> doko: I mean, I share the sentiment of it feeling broken
[10:11] <zyga> doko: but what could we do?
[10:13] <doko> well, for me it then not using the snap anymore
[10:13] <ogra> have a "host-documentation" interface that lallows reading /usr/share/doc content ?
[10:13] <zyga> doko: to partially answer my own question, at some point the document portal could be integrated into chromium, so that it could open a file
[10:13] <zyga> but IIRC the portal does not handle directories yet
[10:14] <zyga> doko: while I agee it's a regression I think using chromium to browse debian-style local documentation is fortunately niche
[10:15] <zyga> ogra: if you do that then the snap won't be able to see the /usr/share/doc from the base, I guess that's acceptable but rather obscure
[10:15] <zyga> ogra: but I think that's a good idea
[10:17] <ogra> yeah, i doubt the base will actually have content in /usr/shar/doc apart from copyright files
[10:17] <zyga> doko: I would strongly encourage you to file a bug or open a forum thread, I think ogra's idea is viable and well worth discussing
[10:17] <ogra> unless the building has changed massively (we used to remove everything there in the expectation that nobody would every want to use docs inside a base)
[10:18] <zyga> ogra: yes, I think we are lucky in a sense
[10:18] <zyga> if it was something other than that directory, it's probably not something that we could rely on
[10:18] <ogra> yeah
[10:20] <ogra> btw, using a portal would be horrible i fear, every link inside that index.html would pop up a new portal window
[10:20] <doko> zyga: where to file a bug?
[10:21] <zyga> ogra: I think there's a plan to open an entire directory as a portal
[10:21] <ogra> ah
[10:21] <zyga> doko: please file the bug on snapd on launchpad
[10:24] <doko> https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1875860
[10:24] <mup> Bug #1875860: local documentation is not accessible from the chromium snap <regression> <snapd:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1875860>
[10:26] <zyga> ogra: I added a comment explaining your idea
[10:26] <zyga> doko: thank you!
[10:26] <ogra> :)
[11:04] <ackk> hi, are these error coming from snapd itself  https://launchpadlibrarian.net/477374648/DpkgTerminalLog.txt ?
[11:08] <zyga> yes
[11:08] <zyga> ackk: udev in containers
[11:08] <zyga> ackk: it's a known topic that's on the backlog
[11:10] <ackk> zyga, what's the issue there?
[11:10] <zyga> ackk: snapd tries to reconfigure udev but udev is not meant to be used in containers (we pull it as a debian dependency) and it fails
[11:11] <ackk> zyga, for context, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/maas/+bug/1875741 is the bug for that trace. basically a bionic->focal dist-upgrade with maas transitioning from deb to snap broke
[11:11] <mup> Bug #1875741: package maas 2.6.2-7841-ga10625be3-0ubuntu1~18.04.1 failed to install/upgrade: new maas package pre-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 1 <amd64> <apport-package> <focal> <third-party-packages> <uec-images> <maas (Ubuntu):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1875741>
[11:11] <zyga> ackk: on subsequent runs snapd things everything is okay and no longer tries
[11:11] <ackk> zyga, so trying once again should fix it?
[11:11] <zyga> ackk: it's a topic we know about since Fra but we haven't managed to discuss at depth with Security
[11:11] <zyga> ackk: yes
[11:11] <zyga> ackk: there are some disagreements and we frankly didn't have time to sit down and discuss this
[11:12] <ackk> zyga, did anything change recently? I did test maas deb->snap transition in containers, never seen this issue
[11:12] <zyga> not that I know of
[11:13] <ackk> zyga, won't that break anyone dist-upgrading a container with snapd installed to focal? or is some kind of race that might happen?
[11:14] <zyga> ackk: it probably will
[11:14] <zyga> ackk: just a fire more distant than fires close up
[11:14] <sparkiegeek> zyga: got a bug number for it?
[11:14] <zyga> sparkiegeek: yes, let me find it
[11:14] <zyga> sparkiegeek: I tried addressing it before
[11:14] <zyga> one sec
[11:15] <ackk> zyga, sure, not implying anything, just trying to understand if there's something on the maas package side we could do, which it seems ther's not?
[11:17] <zyga> https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8219
[11:17] <mup> PR #8219: interfaces: use udev backend if udev socket exists <Security-High> <Created by zyga> <Closed by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8219>
[11:17] <zyga> this is my idea and the bug is https://bugs.launchpad.net/snapd/+bug/1865503
[11:17] <mup> Bug #1865503: snapd (deb) fails to install snapd (snap) inside LXD on a buildd based image <core20> <snapd:In Progress by zyga> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1865503>
[11:17] <zyga> the discussion there is interesting as well
[11:17] <zyga> my idea is that we should not depend on udev, not pull it in for containers, not use any udev when there's no real udev or real /dev
[11:19] <zyga> sparkiegeek, ackk: if you have opinions I'd love to learn from you as well
[11:20] <sparkiegeek> zyga: no educated opinion here :|
[11:20] <ackk> zyga, same here...
[11:31] <mup> PR snapd#8578 opened: interfaces: add host-docs interface <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8578>
[11:58] <mborzecki> pstolowski: does your PR now work on centos 8 with the fix in master?
[12:19] <pstolowski> mborzecki: which PR?
[12:19] <mborzecki> pstolowski: don't remember :P one that was blocked by selinux basically, or was there none?
[12:20] <pstolowski> mborzecki: master was blocked
[12:20] <mborzecki> ahh cool
[12:22] <zyga> doko: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8578
[12:22] <mup> PR #8578: interfaces: add host-docs interface <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8578>
[12:22] <zyga> doko: it even has a test: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8578/files#diff-aea859a8dd781e56f1c21b809b953d95R13
[12:31] <ogra> oh, look someone found the mvo backdorr in ubuntu core !!! once you create an mvo account you can never delete it anymore !! https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/login-and-delete-user-created-with-v2-create-user/17019
[12:33] <mborzecki> all devices belong to mvo ;)
[12:33] <ogra> yeah !
[12:33] <mvo> ogra: haha
[12:34] <ogra> i really wonder what makes people use some random accounts found on the internet for such stuff :)
[12:34] <mvo> it's baffling!
[12:37] <zyga> mvo: lol
[12:53] <zyga> mvo: I wonder if the user found this is our tests or if there is some documentation example
[12:54] <mvo> probably
[13:48] <zyga> I could use a review for rather simple https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8565
[13:48] <mup> PR #8565: osutil: expand FileLock to support shared locks and more <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8565>
[14:02] <zyga> ok, i have my opensuse install under control now
[14:05] <pstolowski> +1
[14:05] <zyga> thanks!
[14:09] <zyga> ijohnson: do you have a moment  ^ it's pretty simple
[14:09] <zyga> ijohnson: it would unblock a host of other PRs
[14:11] <ijohnson> zyga: will look in a bit busy atm
[14:11] <zyga> sure
[14:17] <mborzecki> mvo: pstolowski: do you think we can land https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8536 to unblock the rest? with any tweaks in the followups (there's a bunch of PRs stack on top of this one)
[14:17] <mup> PR #8536: store,asserts,many: support the new action fetch-assertions <Bulk assert refresh :scroll::scroll::scroll:> <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8536>
[14:17] <mborzecki> hm pedronis isn't around
[14:18] <zyga> brb
[14:18] <zyga> tea
[14:19] <pstolowski> mborzecki: best to ask him actually... don't know if there is any risk
[14:29] <mup> PR snapd#8536 closed: store,asserts,many: support the new action fetch-assertions <Bulk assert refresh :scroll::scroll::scroll:> <Created by pedronis> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8536>
[14:29] <mvo> mborzecki: I think it makes sense, done
[14:29] <mborzecki> thanks!
[14:29] <zyga> jdstrand: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8578/files#diff-aea859a8dd781e56f1c21b809b953d95R13
[14:29] <mup> PR #8578: interfaces: add host-docs interface <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8578>
[14:30] <jdstrand> zyga: cool thanks. I have it on my list to review, but note I'm sprinting/etc
[14:31] <zyga> no rush :)
[14:57] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: I hit the infinite loop of failed to transient mount unit for ubuntu-seed you had the other day
[15:13] <cmatsuoka> ijohnson: it's quite infrequent, but it's something we'll have to fix
[15:13] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: did the issue go away when you rebooted ?
[15:14]  * ijohnson would like to debug but is afraid that when rebooting the issue goes away
[15:14] <cmatsuoka> ijohnson: yes, when I booted the same image again it worked as expected
[15:14] <cmatsuoka> looks racy
[15:14] <ijohnson> mmm yeah
[15:17] <ijohnson> ah actually I can consistently reproduce this now on my image
[15:17]  * ijohnson debugs
[15:18] <cmatsuoka> oh that's good, I couldn't reproduce it
[15:23]  * cachio lunch
[15:25] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: I video recorded the boot and caught this in the first few seconds of the log
[15:25] <ijohnson> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/84WtzfpC/loop%20uc20%20edge.png
[15:26] <ijohnson> the last line `systemd-fsck CP437 Invalid argument` is suspicious
[15:26] <cmatsuoka> oh interesting
[15:26] <cmatsuoka> yes, very suspicious
[15:27] <ijohnson> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/uYCPMgpF/loop%20uc20%20later.png
[15:28] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: then this is also suspicious where run-mnt-ubuntu\x2dseed.mount fails because wrong fs type, bad option, etc.
[15:29] <cmatsuoka> ijohnson: maybe you could inspect the image file? (it could be a good idea to make a copy first in case you end up fixing the problem)
[15:30] <cmatsuoka> ijohnson: and check if the partition contents are there or the filesystem seems right
[15:30] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: yes I am doing that now
[15:30] <ijohnson> the partition was mounted fine with kpartx + mount of the loopback device
[15:31] <cmatsuoka> does it look good?
[15:31] <ijohnson> yeah it has all the expected files and such
[15:31] <cmatsuoka> hmm
[15:31] <ijohnson> should I try to run fsck on the partition in the .img file ?
[15:32] <cmatsuoka> yeah, let's see what happens
[15:34] <ijohnson> huh fsck.etx4 says ubuntu-seed is actually a vfat partition?
[15:34] <ijohnson> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/C2v5Dpoz/
[15:35] <cmatsuoka> mm, yes, seed is vfat
[15:35] <ijohnson> really? I thought seed was ext4 on amd64 ?
[15:35] <cmatsuoka> we must EFI boot it
[15:36] <ijohnson> ah okay so I was just wrong about that then
[15:36] <cmatsuoka> seed is vfat, the rest is ext4
[15:36] <ijohnson> ok, fsck.vfat doesn't complain about the partition at all then
[15:36] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: anything else I should check about the partition you think?
[15:37] <cmatsuoka> did it complain about code pages or something like that?
[15:37] <cmatsuoka> or maybe systemd-fsck does something different?
[15:38] <cmatsuoka> does it still fail if you boot the image again?
[15:42] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: yes it reliably fails every time I boot now
[15:42] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: all I got from fsck.vfat output was this:
[15:43] <ijohnson> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/nuIWXTi1/
[15:43] <cmatsuoka> hmm
[15:44] <ogra> xnox, when you disabled the ability to disaable console-conf in ubuntu-image, did you make sure it still works for core18 builds ?
[15:44] <ogra> (someone just said it is completely gone, we have customers usign that option to build their images)
[15:46] <cmatsuoka> ijohnson: so the fs is good but for some reason it's not being mounted
[15:47] <ijohnson> yes
[15:47] <ijohnson> I can mount it fine though when the image is not booting
[15:47] <ijohnson> actually you know what, since this is still in install mode I can change the kernel cmdline since we never make it out of the initrd
[15:47] <ijohnson> so unsealing doesn't affect anything at this point
[15:48] <cmatsuoka> yes, you're right, let's inspect it while it's happening
[15:48] <ogra> xnox, ah, nevermind ... it still works but the --help info about it is gone
[15:49] <ijohnson> well damn now it boots fine
[15:50] <cmatsuoka> did you make a copy of the original image?
[15:50] <ijohnson> yes I did
[15:50] <ijohnson> let me make a copy of that original image and try again
[15:51] <ijohnson> ah now the copy of the original broken image works too :-/
[15:51] <cmatsuoka> oh noes
[15:52] <ijohnson> so this definitely seems like a race
[15:54] <cmatsuoka>  /o\
[15:57] <ijohnson> well on the other hand, I notice that in the log of the failed boot that goes into this loop there's this message too:
[15:57] <ijohnson> [    1.342368] FAT-fs (vda2): IO charset iso8859-1 not found
[15:57] <ijohnson> and that message doesn't appear in a good boot
[15:57] <ijohnson> so perhaps it's a race with some kernel module being loaded?
[15:58] <cmatsuoka> that sounds plausible
[15:58] <cmatsuoka> but then if it's desperately retrying, at some point it should work
[15:59] <cmatsuoka> ijohnson: https://askubuntu.com/questions/372445/fat-fs-io-charset-iso8859-1-not-found-error-while-mounting-fat-drives
[16:01] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: what's so weird about this issue, is that it finishes the fsck check on /dev/vda2 in the loop case
[16:01] <ijohnson> ah but it wouldn't be loading the kernel module from that partition at this point, it would be loading it from the initrd in the kernel
[16:02] <ijohnson> so perhaps that kernel module in the initrd is corrupted somehow?
[16:02] <cmatsuoka> but then why it would work in the next boot?
[16:03] <ijohnson> well tbh I didn't quite make a perfect backup of the original image that was always reproducing, what I did was this:
[16:04] <ijohnson> 1. tried booting same img over and over again always reproducing infinite loop
[16:04] <ijohnson> 2. tried mounting the img file with kpartx and ran fsck.ext4 on it as explained
[16:04] <ijohnson> 3. unmounted with kpartx and made a backup copy
[16:04] <ijohnson> 4. re-mounted it and tried with fsck.vfat
[16:04] <ijohnson> 5. booted it and it didn't work first time
[16:04] <ijohnson> 6. rebooted it and changed kernel cmdline in grub menu, now it works every time
[16:05] <cmatsuoka> well, it still didn't boot in step 5
[16:06] <ijohnson> yes but somehow changing the kernel cmdline made it boot fine
[16:06] <cmatsuoka> that's weird
[16:06] <ijohnson> I set the kernel cmdline to this: `console=tty1 console=ttyS0 rd.systemd.journald.forward_to_console=1 systemd.journald.forward_to_console=1 rd.systemd.debug_shell=1 dangerous panic=-1`
[16:07] <ijohnson> let me try re-creating this image fresh the way I did originally
[16:08] <cmatsuoka> I'll break for lunch and hopefully have a good idea while eating
[16:08] <cmatsuoka> because right now I don't have any
[16:09] <ijohnson> yeah just doing same thing again to build the image didn't reproduce it
[16:09]  * ijohnson runs it in a loop
[16:11] <ijohnson> hey I reproduced it again!
[16:11]  * ijohnson saves that img
[16:14] <zyga> you guys are having some fun :)
[16:14] <ijohnson> uc20 is too much fun
[16:17] <ijohnson> alright so every few time it hits that loop and fails, I see the IO charset iso8859-1 not found message, but when it does boot, I don't see that message, so it definitely is related
[16:26] <xnox> ogra_:  i didn't change anything in ubuntu-image, and do not do any ubuntu-image development there.
[16:26] <xnox> ogra_:  open an issue against ubuntu-image repository, with any bugs.
[16:27] <thresh> hi.  I see my snapcraft push nightlies/vlc_*.snap --release beta, has succeeded in my CI, and I also see it under "Latest revisions for amd64" list.  However it's not in the beta channel.
[16:27] <thresh> why would that happen, on the store?
[16:28] <zyga> thresh: this is more of a snapcraft question but perhaps snapcraft devs are around as well
[16:29] <thresh> thanks zyga, I'll complain in the related channel too :-)
[16:31] <zyga> thresh: I don't use snapcraft that often but I usually separately upload and release
[16:47] <zyga> cachio: are tumbleweed images updated periodically somehow or are we running a snapshot until something happens explicitly?
[16:50] <cachio> zyga, failed yesterday
[16:50] <zyga> sorry, I don't understand
[16:51] <cachio> let me try to fix it
[16:51] <zyga> cachio: can you please answer my question :-)
[16:51] <cachio> I mean
[16:51] <zyga> I' just want to understand what the process is
[16:52] <zyga> you can tell me what failed and about fixing it as well
[16:52] <zyga> but that's not what I was asking about
[16:52] <cachio> the process is:
[16:52] <cachio> the image is updated to a tamporal image
[16:52] <cachio> then the snapd tests are executed
[16:53] <cachio> if tests pass, then we turn that temporal image in a test image
[16:53] <cachio> otherwise the image is discarded
[16:53] <cachio> yesterday it failed running tests
[16:54] <cachio> failed preparing the the snapd teest suite
[16:54] <zyga> is there any notification when that happens?
[16:54] <cachio> no
[16:54] <zyga> that's not great, can we try go get some
[16:54] <cachio> it is in the brnaches board
[16:54] <cachio> ans it happens every monday
[16:55] <zyga> what is "branches board"?
[16:55] <cachio> https://travis-ci.org/github/snapcore/spread-cron/branches
[16:55] <cachio> https://travis-ci.org/github/snapcore/spread-cron/branches
[16:55] <cachio> zyga, this is the last log https://travis-ci.org/github/snapcore/spread-cron/builds/680087171#L2749
[16:56] <cachio> sometimes I manually run the jobs to update the images
[16:57] <cachio> zyga, I see this Package 'python-docutils' not found.
[16:58] <zyga> I see, I think this package just got removed, it's a python 2 package
[16:59] <cachio> zyga, also 'pkg-config' not found in package names.
[17:00] <zyga> cachio: why are we installing python-docutil?
[17:00] <zyga> I don't see it in anything related to opensuse
[17:00] <zyga> cachio: yes, that's also been removed and replaced by something else
[17:01] <cachio> zyga, this is the snapd test suite which fails
[17:01] <zyga> cachio: python-docutils is only listed in arch
[17:01] <zyga> cachio: why are we installing python-docutils, do you know?
[17:01] <cachio> zyga, don't know why it is installed
[17:01] <cachio> I guess  a test need it
[17:01] <ogra> xnox, oh, sorry, GH tricked me ... you were just a reviewer on https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/ubuntu-image/pull/186
[17:01] <mup> PR CanonicalLtd/ubuntu-image#186: Some options are unsupported for UC20 builds <Created by sil2100> <Merged by sil2100> <https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/ubuntu-image/pull/186>
[17:01] <zyga> cachio: do you know which part of the code is installing it? I certainly don't see it in pkgdb.sh
[17:02] <zyga> I see it in opensuse dependencies but that's not managed by pkgdb.sh
[17:04] <zyga> cachio: ok, I see the problem now
[17:04] <cachio> packaging/opensuse-15.0/snapd.spec:
[17:04] <zyga> cachio: I think for sid, tumbleweed and arch we should not stop
[17:04] <zyga> cachio: if we stop and use some ancient version because tests don't pass
[17:04] <zyga> that's pretty much because snapd is in a way broken
[17:04] <zyga> the world has moved on
[17:05] <zyga> staying on an old image without alerting the team could be a problem later
[17:05] <zyga> in a sense those systems are all unstable because they never stop
[17:05] <cachio> zyga, for arch is not a problem because we update in every run the image
[17:05] <zyga> cachio: regardless of how we update
[17:06] <cachio> zyga, but I could remove snapd tests validation for tumbleweed and sid
[17:06] <cachio> it is very easy
[17:06] <zyga> cachio: yeah, I think we should do that
[17:06] <zyga> cachio: we can have them in unstable systems
[17:06] <cachio> zyga, yes
[17:06] <zyga> cachio: in reality, the package is gone from the archive
[17:06] <cachio> totally agree
[17:06] <zyga> cachio: not updating a stale image is not buying us anything
[17:06] <zyga> cachio: the package cannot be built
[17:06] <zyga> cachio: CI is not functioning as CI :)
[17:07] <zyga> cachio: cool, I'll send a patch to fix our packaging
[17:07] <cachio> zyga, nice, thanks!
[17:07] <zyga> cachio: but please let's figure out how to make some notifications flash on everyone's systems
[17:07] <zyga> cachio: so that next time we know earlier
[17:07] <cachio> zyga, sure, I'll configure to send emails
[17:07] <zyga> super, thank you :)
[17:07] <cachio> zyga, yaw
[17:17] <zyga> cachio: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8579
[17:17] <mup> PR #8579: packaging: stop depending on python-docutils <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8579>
[17:17] <mup> PR snapd#8579 opened: packaging: stop depending on python-docutils <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8579>
[17:22]  * zyga goes to make coffee ahead of the meeting
[17:28] <cachio> zyga, thanks
[17:28] <cachio> lets test it whith the new image once it is ready
[17:31] <zyga> sure
[17:49] <kyrofa> If someone runs `snap revert`, will it run the refresh hooks?
[17:49] <ijohnson> kyrofa: afaik it won't
[17:50] <kyrofa> ijohnson, any hooks? Any way the snap to which is being reverted can know that a revert happened?
[17:50] <ijohnson> no, I think that's by design that the snap doesn't know it got reverted
[17:51] <kyrofa> Fair enough, thanks ijohnson
[17:53] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: ah I think I understand the problem now
[17:53] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: what's happening is this sequence of events:
[17:54] <ijohnson> 1. there is a systemd unit for running fsck on /dev/disk/by-label/ubuntu-seed that just always runs, so it happens to run first
[17:55] <ijohnson> 2. snap-bootstrap via "the-tool" runs, says to mount /run/mnt/ubuntu-seed _with transient unit_ (that's important)
[17:55] <ijohnson> 3. that fails because systemd-modules-load has not run, or finished running yet
[17:55] <ijohnson> 4. so we see IO charset iso8859-1 not found from the kernel because nls_iso8859_1 was not loaded
[17:56] <ijohnson> 5. systemd-modules-load eventually runs/finishes running and does load nls_iso8859_1: systemd-modules-load[238]: Inserted module 'nls_iso8859_1'
[17:56] <ijohnson> 6. the-tool keeps running snap-bootstrap, which says to mount /run/mnt/ubuntu-seed, however because of how the-tool tries to do the mount, it just requests a transient unit for the mount
[17:57] <ijohnson> 7. the transient unit was already started/created by systemd so systemd doesn't try again and just complains thusly: the-tool[380]: Failed to start transient mount unit: Unit run-mnt-ubuntu\x2dseed.mount already exists.
[17:58] <ijohnson> 8. thus we get stuck in an infinite loop where the-tool never exits because the-tool doesn't run systemd-mount with set -e, it explicitly runs systemd-mount with set +e first, then turns set -e back on after running systemd-mount
[17:58] <cmatsuoka> that makes perfect sense
[17:59] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: so I have a few thoughts on how to fix this, 1) make the-tool depend on systemd-modules-load, 2) make the-tool eventually give up (because since it never gives up systemd never allows a debug shell to be started either)
[17:59] <ijohnson> 3) don't have a unit which runs fsck always on ubuntu-seed, instead have the-tool dynamically do that when snap-bootstrap requests something to be mounted
[17:59] <ijohnson> wdyt?
[18:01] <cmatsuoka> 2 looks like a good thing to have in case we run into problems again
[18:02] <cmatsuoka> 1 + 2 maybe?
[18:02] <ijohnson> yes actually I requested a very similar thing when mborzecki's original PR to ubuntu-core-initramfs was proposed, but I confused myself and said it wasn't a problem haha
[18:02] <ijohnson> (for 2 that is)
[18:02] <mborzecki> hahah
[18:03] <cmatsuoka> well I'm very happy now that this mystery is solved
[18:03] <mborzecki> it does make sense, i mean there's not gooing to me more than some limited number of mounts
[18:04] <cachio> zyga, hey, I also see this error https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/gcw9dTrRGm/
[18:07] <ijohnson> alright I will propose a PR to ubuntu-core-initramfs to fix this, but I was going to file a LP bug first to summarize all this, but seems LP just died, so I will have to do that later
[18:07]  * ijohnson goes back to console-conf on core20 hacking
[18:17] <zyga> ack
[18:19] <zyga> cachio: please release the image anyway, I will send another change to address that
[18:19] <cachio> zyga, ok
[18:26] <mup> PR snapd#8579 closed: packaging: stop depending on python-docutils <Created by zyga> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8579>
[18:35] <cachio> mvo, hi, any idea about this ppa ? https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/ttF5CHt56X/
[18:41] <ijohnson> cachio: launchpad is/was down for a bit
[18:42] <cachio> ijohnson, ah, thanks
[18:44] <mvo> cachio: looks like a LP issue
[18:46] <cachio> mvo, yes
[18:46] <cachio> thanks
[19:12] <mup> PR snapd#8580 opened: data/completion: add `snap` command completion for zsh <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8580>
[19:13] <mborzecki> any zsh users here?
[19:34] <mup> PR snapcraft#3095 closed: plugins: break out rosdep resolve parsing for external use <Created by cjp256> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/3095>
[19:34] <mup> PR snapcraft#3098 opened: build providers: bootstrap with dirmngr <Created by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/3098>
[19:45] <cmatsuoka> ijohnson: just hit the problem again here, and in the next boot it's gone
[20:05] <ijohnson> cmatsuoka: yes I'm not sure what changed, but something seems to make it more likely to happen recently as I never saw it before yesterday
[20:06] <cmatsuoka> and it seems that I'm having some dns issues with the store
[20:10] <ijohnson> there was a big outage with launchpad a while ago that maybe propagated to the store? I dunno store seems a little slow but otherwise operational on my end
[20:12] <cmatsuoka> right now I can't resolve snapcraft.io
[20:13] <Lukewh> seems ok here cmatsuoka where are you based?
[20:13] <cmatsuoka> I'm in brazil
[20:13] <cmatsuoka> oh, and now it's back
[20:15] <cmatsuoka> a few days ago there were some routing problems from brazil to the rest of the world so it can be something weird on my side again
[20:16] <mup> PR snapcraft#3099 opened: repo: always refresh cache when build packages are required <Created by cjp256> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/3099>
[20:17] <cmatsuoka> oh, it seems that the ipv4 addresses are resolving correctly but AAAA is not for some reason
[20:18] <cmatsuoka> anyway, let's just use ipv4
[20:22] <zyga> I will fix the damn pulseaudio test tomorrow
[20:22] <zyga> now that other stuff is not red anymore
[20:23] <mup> PR snapd#8565 closed: osutil: expand FileLock to support shared locks and more <Created by zyga> <Merged by anonymouse64> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8565>
[20:24] <zyga> \o/
[20:24] <zyga> thank you Ian :)
[20:27] <cjwatson> ijohnson: it was a Canonical network issue, not specifically LP, so there'll have been various bits of fallout
[20:27] <ijohnson> yaw zyga
[20:28] <ijohnson> cjwatson: yeah that's kinda what I expected
[20:28] <cjwatson> (GS2 I think)
[20:28] <zyga> ijohnson: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8566/files is next on the r-a-a pipe
[20:28] <zyga> but it has probably-poor names
[20:28] <mup> PR #8566: cmd/cmdutil: add run inhibition operations <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8566>
[20:28] <zyga> I was split between lock naming
[20:29] <zyga> and totally not lock naming
[20:29] <ijohnson> mmm zyga does that need samuele review for names?
[20:29] <zyga> ijohnson: for sure but we can do the technical review
[20:29] <ijohnson> ack will try to get to it today, but probably that one will have to wait for tomorrow
[20:30] <zyga> ijohnson: or maybe better this:
[20:30] <zyga> https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8571
[20:30] <zyga> this is self-sufficient
[20:30] <mup> PR #8571: overlord/snapstate: warn of refresh/postpone events <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8571>
[20:30] <zyga> and useful today
[20:30] <zyga> and actually tiny apart from tests :)
[20:30] <zyga> just two print-like calls
[20:31] <zyga> but I should EOD
[20:31] <zyga> or I'll start sending more things
[20:32]  * zyga waves
[20:32] <ijohnson> haha
[20:32] <ijohnson> have a good night zyga
[20:32] <zyga> one last thing: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8572#event-3283181589
[20:32] <zyga> I like this line
[20:32] <mup> PR #8572: packaging: add the inhibit directory <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8572>
[20:32] <zyga> "via automation"
[20:43] <zyga> meh
[20:43] <zyga> I fixed the stupid test
[20:58] <zyga> ijohnson: https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8581 draft for now
[20:58] <mup> PR #8581: tests: port pulseaudio test to session-tool <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8581>
[20:59] <mup> PR snapd#8581 opened: tests: port pulseaudio test to session-tool <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/8581>
[21:09] <zyga> so, session-tool on 16.04 - it needs to start doing upstart things, I guess
[21:11] <ijohnson> sad
[21:11] <ijohnson> that's unfortunate
[21:12]  * ijohnson EODs early
[22:35] <mup> Issue core20#48 closed: python3 from base causes segfault for confined snaps on armhf <question> <Created by sergiusens> <Closed by xnox> <https://github.com/snapcore/core20/issue/48>


[00:30]  * popey hugs doctormo
[00:30] <Pendulum> jono: that's where I was going to suggest
[00:32] <jono> doctormo, which page?
[00:33] <jono> oh I see
[00:33] <jono> will do
[00:33] <doctormo> Tah, we'll update with funding details as they come in on the sub page.
[00:33] <doctormo> Thanks for the good comment on the blog too jono
[00:34] <pleia2> doctormo: oh Hajni is also going to get back to me about ubuntu-hu members offering couches :)
[00:34] <doctormo> pleia2: Also fantastic!
[00:34]  * doctormo hugs pleia2 and ubuntu-hu members.
[00:34]  * pleia2 hugs
[00:34] <pleia2> and yeah, they rock
[00:36] <jono> doctormo, np
[00:41] <JanC> why only 3+ star hotels?
[00:45] <mhall119> because it's being paid for out of pocket
[00:46] <JanC> looking at those prices, my dad & mom obviously paid less for a nice place to sleep in Budapest in December (but probably not near UDS ;) )
[00:47] <pleia2> the area is expensive
[00:47] <popey> no surprise there :S
[00:47] <Pendulum> mhall119: I think he was asking why it didn't include things with fewer stars than 3
[00:47] <JanC> they also didn't look for stars in hotels  ;)
[00:47] <pleia2> and I'd rather not put my fellow attendees up in dumps in a foreign country :)
[00:47] <pleia2> 45 euros is not bad though
[00:48] <Pendulum> yeah, I'd worry about quality of hotels that are less than 3 stars in Budapest. I think I've stayed in one :-/
[00:48] <popey> thats cheap by uk standards
[00:48] <pleia2> yeah, cheap for here too
[00:48] <Pendulum> yeah, 45 euros is very good for hotels most places
[00:48] <mhall119> I'd imagine that Canonical gets a discounted rate on hotel rooms, any chance that people paying their own way can get a room in the hotel at those rates?
[00:49] <popey> your average cheap chain hotel will be 45-55 GBP which is 53-65 EUR
[00:49] <pleia2> mhall119: I mentioned above that the uds site has a form to fill out if you want to stay there, but the form is MIA, so maybe when that's up it'll tell more about pricing
[00:49] <Pendulum> mhall119: I think Canonical pays the same as the group rate that they offer for people who pay their own way or book from them
[00:49] <mhall119> ok
[00:50] <Pendulum> in Orlando, though, they didn't publish what the group rate was, you had to ask (they did publish it for Brussels)
[00:50]  * mhall119 needs to get his passport paperwork started
[00:50] <Pendulum> mhall119: yes you do!
[00:50] <mhall119> it's such a hassle, you actually have to show up in person
[00:50] <JanC> I did a quick search, and I see Ibis hotels (Accor group) with rooms for 29-39 EUR in Budapest...
[00:50] <mhall119> in person!
[00:51] <mhall119> like it's 1990 or something
[00:51] <Pendulum> haha
[00:51] <JanC> and Ibis isn't even the cheapest hotels in that hotel group...
[00:51] <mhall119> I mean, I have a camera, I have a computer, I can even prove it's me by signing it with my GPG key
[00:51] <pleia2> I ended up paying $75 to get my name change rushed for brussels, oops
[00:51] <mhall119> but no, I have to go stand in line like a luddite
[00:51] <pleia2> it would have been free if I had planned properly :)
[00:52] <Pendulum> I once lost my passport less than a week before I was due to fly
[00:52] <Pendulum> and in that week was a weekend, and Christmas (and Christmas Eve)
[00:52] <Pendulum> there was some really "exciting" manuvering to make that work ;)
[00:53] <mhall119> dang, I need to order a birth certificate from Miami
[00:54] <JanC> mhall119: you need a passport or a visum?
[00:54] <mhall119> passport
[00:55] <JanC> I guess having mandatory ID cards makes getting a passport easier over here (they did the "birth certificate" check when you were born...)
[00:57] <mhall119> my parents are gonna check if they have a copy of mine, but they don't think so
[00:58] <mhall119> oh sweet, I can get my birth certificate from my current county
[00:58] <mhall119> no need for a trip to Miami
[01:04] <mhall119> do I need a passport book, card, or book and card?
[01:18] <IdleOne> mhall119: passport book
[01:18] <JanC> what's a "passport card" ?
[01:18] <IdleOne> the card is enough for when you cross into Canada for example by car or boat.
[01:19] <IdleOne> if you travel by plane they require the book iirc
[01:19] <maco> it's not valid for air travel
[01:19] <JanC> something like our ID cards ?
[01:19] <mhall119> ok, thanks
[01:19] <mhall119> dang the books are expensive though
[01:19] <Pendulum> yeah, passports are not cheap :-/
[01:19] <mhall119> $30 for the card, $110 for the book
[01:20] <maco> HUH
[01:20] <maco> i thought passports were like $60
[01:20] <IdleOne> mhall119: the book is valid all over the world for all types of travel
[01:20] <maco> but the thing i was about to type ("but at least they last ten years") still applies. at least for adults.
[01:20] <JanC> and valif for at least 5 years probably
[01:20] <JanC> or 10  ;)
[01:21] <IdleOne> 5 years for your first book and ten years after that in Canada
[01:21] <IdleOne> not sure why that is though
[01:21] <Pendulum> 10 years if you're over 16 in the US
[01:21] <Pendulum> I think it's 5 if you're under 16
[01:21] <mhall119> oh well, if I get sponsorship for UDS-O, it'll be a small price to pay
[01:21] <Pendulum> :)
[01:22] <IdleOne> ahh maybe that is what i was thinking of Pendulum :)
[01:22] <Pendulum> mhall119: plus then you have it for 10 years for other UDSes and stuff :)
[01:22] <mhall119> exactly
[01:22] <mhall119> except half the UDSes look like they'll be in my back yard again
[01:22] <mhall119> which is also cool
[01:22] <Pendulum> well 1/2 would be in the US probably anyway
[01:23] <JanC> I guess they are easily renewed also, no need to hunt for birth certificates again etc.
[01:23] <mhall119> yeah,  if you have a passport it seems that's all you need to get a new one
[01:23] <Pendulum> so unless you lose it :-/
[01:24]  * mhall119 doesn't plan on losing it
[01:24] <maco> or unless its expired for like > 1yr before you renew
[01:24] <IdleOne> nobody ever does
[01:24] <maco> because if you let it stay expired too long, you're back to applying from scratch, not renewing
[01:24] <Pendulum> mhall119: you're also unlikely to move 2-3 times a year :)
[01:24] <Pendulum> mine went missing in various dorm -> home -> dorm moves
[01:24] <JanC> and AFAIK the EU doesn't have the silly "questionaire" that the US has...   ;)
[01:24] <mhall119> Pendulum: given that we bought our house before the market hit bottom, we're not going anywhere for a while
[01:25] <Pendulum> yeah
[01:25] <Pendulum> I was lucky because we had a copy of my birth certificate already
[01:25] <mhall119> but, at least we have room for guests in October
[01:25] <Pendulum> \o/
[01:25] <Pendulum> I swear if it snows in April, I'm driving down to y'all then just to escape ;)
[01:26] <mhall119> you know you're welcome any time
[01:26] <JanC> like: "did you ever smoke pot?", "did you ever protest US foreign policy?", etc. -- of course everybody answers yes to that :P  (not!)
[01:26] <mhall119> heh
[01:26] <Pendulum> heh
[01:26] <paultag> errrrr
[01:27] <mhall119> does "whining on facebook" count as a protest?
[01:27] <Pendulum> I've never been asked if I'd ever smoked pot when returning to the US
[01:27]  * paultag coughs
[01:27] <Pendulum> That could be a fun question when coming home from Amsterdam :)
[01:27] <mhall119> lol
[01:27] <Pendulum> pain vacations ftw \o/
[01:27] <mhall119> answer: "Well I have *now*"
[01:27] <JanC> Pendulum: it's for non-US-ians travelling to the US  ;)
[01:28] <paultag> mhall119: fun fact, it's still not legal there
[01:28] <Pendulum> JanC: I know. I just didn't realise they asked that much detail
[01:28] <mhall119> paultag: it's not?
[01:28] <Pendulum> nope, it's a loop hole in an old law
[01:28] <paultag> they just have a law saying they won't go after coffe shops that sell pot, given they follow the rules
[01:28] <mhall119> oh
[01:28] <paultag> but it's still not "legal"
[01:28] <JanC> well, they ask about using illegal drugs at least (don't remember if they mentioned pot)
[01:28] <mhall119> so, kind of like California
[01:28] <Pendulum> mhall119: well CA has legalised within the state medical use
[01:28] <paultag> mhall119: well, it's legal there, but the federal law still maintains it's not
[01:29]  * Pendulum is considering a relocation to CA
[01:29] <mhall119> right, but there's still a federal law against it
[01:29] <paultag> mhall119: so no state level officer can go after someone with a script, but goverment feds can
[01:29] <paultag> such as the DEA
[01:29] <paultag> ... not that I know any of this for any reason
[01:29] <JanC> it's not a loophole in the law, they just have a rule that says that amounts under a certain level are not persecuted
[01:30]  * mhall119 loves our mixed-up country
[01:30] <paultag> JanC: right
[01:30] <IdleOne> DEA =? Dude Eer Allyours
[01:30] <mhall119> Drug Enforcement Agency
[01:30] <IdleOne> lol
[01:30] <IdleOne> yeah I know
[01:30] <paultag> bunch of narcs
[01:30] <paultag> I mean, true americans
[01:31] <mhall119> this is a logged channel right?
[01:31] <JanC> in Belgium owning "personal amounts" is not persecuted either, but selling is (unlike most municipalities in The Netherlands, where selling small amounts is not persecuted either)
[01:33] <maco> JanC: to which the answer is "illegal in what jurisdiction?"
[01:33] <Pendulum> mhall119: btw, can you tell Michelle I said congrats?
[01:33] <mhall119> Pendulum: I will when she comes back
[01:33] <mhall119> she'd out celebrating with some friends
[01:33] <Pendulum> :D
[01:33] <Pendulum> actually, it's interesting if you look at various state laws in the US
[01:33] <JanC> maco: using/selling weed is illegal all over The Netherlands  :P
[01:34] <maco> Pendulum: on what?
[01:34] <Pendulum> like in NY possesion under an oz of cannabis is decriminalized
[01:34] <JanC> except when prescribed by anMD
[01:34] <JanC> it's just not persecuted in most places
[01:34] <Pendulum> JanC: yeah, that's why I'd do extra well there. I'm clear medical case :)
[01:35] <JanC> you still need a prescription to make ;)
[01:35] <pleia2> smoking weed is required in san francisco (it's impossible to avoid second hand smoke if you ever go outside :P)
[01:35] <Pendulum> heh
[01:36] <JanC> in Belgium it's legal to use when you have a prescriptio, but nobody can sell it legally, talk about loopholes...  :P
[01:36] <Pendulum> pleia2: I actually am seriously considering relocating to the Bay Area, and that is one of the reasons ;)
[01:36] <Pendulum> JanC: can you grow if you have a prescription?
[01:36] <JanC> Pendulum: growing for personal use is at least decriminalized
[01:37] <Pendulum> JanC: that's also pretty similar to a lot of the medical use laws in the US. It's one of teh reasons my state doesn't have medical use legal, the last governor wouldn't sign the bill that passed because she said she didn't want to encourage people to do something that was illegal (buying)
[01:38] <JanC> it has been proposed that farmacies should sell it...
[01:38] <JanC> when prescribed of course
[01:38] <Pendulum> in California and the parts of Canada where it's prescribable, they have dispensaries
[01:38] <Pendulum> also in Colorado
[01:38] <Pendulum> for people who have prescriptions
[01:39] <Pendulum> I think that's really sensible
[01:39] <Pendulum> but I do try to keep up somewhat on the laws various places
[01:39] <Pendulum> I actually went to the Cannabis Cup one year
[01:39] <pleia2> yeah, the dispensary trucks are painted with flowers and crazy hippy stuff
[01:39] <Pendulum> too many stoners there for me :-/
[01:39] <pleia2> it's very amusing :)
[01:40] <Pendulum> (I don't get high, I actually end up with more energy and better functioning so the traditional lazy stoner type actually annoys me)
[01:40] <JanC> it seems like the problem is with drug registration laws, which mandate that drugs have the same amount of active substances over time
[01:40] <pleia2> they also do delivery
[01:40] <pleia2> pizza, check...!
[01:40] <Pendulum> in the US there is a synthetic THC med, but I don't find it as effective as cannabis (which I prefer to eat or get through a vapourizer than to smoke. Smoking makes me cough)
[01:41] <Pendulum> for the record, I don't actually use it illegally in the US
[01:41] <Pendulum> I just go to Amsterdam when I can afford to do so ;)
[01:41] <Pendulum> and take the legal synthetic THC med
[01:41] <Pendulum> which is also so dangerous to make that we're the only country that makes it
[01:41] <JanC> the thing is, natural Canabis also includes antidotes for some of the side-effects of THC  ;)
[01:41] <JanC> at least, some varieties do
[01:41] <Pendulum> there used to be a plant in Germany that made it, but the stopped due to too many injuries
[01:41] <Pendulum> yeah
[01:45] <JanC> somebody I know got prescribed cannabis once as a possible help for CFS, but she couldn't get it easily within Belgiumn and CFS doesn't make traveling easy...  :-/
[01:47] <Pendulum> yeah
[01:57] <duanedesign> 'lo  Pendulum
[01:59] <Pendulum> hiya duanedesign
[02:01] <duanedesign> amazing it reached 73f/22c today. Finally got rid of most the snow
[02:01] <duanedesign> got to open up all the windows. The cats love that
[02:02] <Pendulum> wow
[02:02] <Pendulum> we got somewhere in the upper 50s here
[02:02] <Pendulum> but still have too much snow
[02:06] <JanC> it's about 2°C now, was around 5-7 °C by day I think
[02:08] <Pendulum> JanC: see, I wouldn't mind that so much. It's the 2+ feet of snow (that still hasn't melted) that's the problem
[02:08] <JanC> eh, I can imagine
[02:09] <JanC> snow melts at that temperature, but probably not very fast...
[02:09] <Pendulum> depends on the level of sun
[02:09] <JanC> I hope at least the sidewalks etc. are cleared?
[02:09] <Pendulum> depends on where you are
[02:09] <Pendulum> there are no sidewalks on my street anyway
[02:10] <Pendulum> but I nearly hurt myself getting petrol in my car because they hadn't cleared around the base of the pumps and it'd iced over
[02:10] <JanC> well, snow always melts when the temperature is 1°C or more, but if there is no sun it can be very slow
[02:10] <maco> O_O huh....
[02:10] <maco> filling up the tank has to suck if you're in a wheelchair
[02:11] <maco> have to get the chair out of the car and set up, scoot out, figure out how to turn around and face the tank...and then do it all in reverse
[02:11] <maco> i never thought about the mechanics of that before
[02:11] <Pendulum> if you actually can't walk, you find places that have more than 1 attendant because they're legally required to help you at no extra cost as long as it means the counter isn't abandoned
[02:11] <duanedesign> add in ice :\
[02:11] <JanC> not only dangerous if you are in a wheelchair, but even more so indeed
[02:12] <Pendulum> if I couldn't walk, I actually don't know where in this area I could get petrol as everything is 1-person manning
[02:12] <Pendulum> I'd probably end up having to bring a parent with me
[02:12] <maco> Pendulum: good to know, but if you're really low on gas driving around hunting for a 2-person place seems...problematic
[02:12] <Pendulum> or someone else
[02:12] <Pendulum> maco: you don't let yourself get that low
[02:13] <Pendulum> it's one of those "extra planning" things you have to do
[02:13] <JanC> eh, in general 1-person places will help you too here
[02:13] <Pendulum> not here
[02:14] <Pendulum> a lot of places in the US, tbh, even if they have 2 people will try to get out of it
[02:14] <maco> how do you signal to them that you need assistance, anyway?
[02:14] <duanedesign> i always heard it is better not to let your car get really low on gas. Supposedly that is where all the muck is in your tank (at the bottom). Do not know how true that is
[02:14] <Pendulum> generally there's a sign saying "honk"
[02:14] <maco> duanedesign: yeah...
[02:14] <Pendulum> a few places have buttons you can press
[02:14] <maco> duanedesign: in winter its really bad
[02:14] <maco> (moire likely to freeze)
[02:15] <duanedesign> ahh
[02:15] <Pendulum> I have problems in the winter because for some reason the whole ethanol evaporating thing seems to be worse in the winter
[02:15] <Pendulum> (or at least, that's what my father blames it on)
[02:15] <maco> our fathers need to debate then
[02:15] <Pendulum> so I can park at home and it'll say 1/4 of a tank and then when I turn the car on next it'll be 1/8 tank
[02:15] <maco> because the frozen gas explanation came from my dad
[02:15] <JanC> duanedesign: the older your car the more likely dirt heaps up at the bottom
[02:15] <Pendulum> yeah, my car is old
[02:16] <Pendulum> not as old as my previous car
[02:16] <Pendulum> I think my previous car might have been older than maco ;)
[02:16] <maco> hehe
[02:16] <Pendulum> (got sold when I was in NYC, unfortunately, as it was still running well)
[02:16] <Pendulum> it was an 88 ford taurus wagon. I love it dearly. it was named The BOat
[02:16] <Pendulum> *Boat
[02:16] <JanC> but most cars have a fuel meter that lists 0 when there are still a couple of litres of fuel in it  ;)
[02:16] <Pendulum> *loved
[02:17] <Pendulum> now I have a '96 Cavelier with ridiculously low milage for its age. But it's a lot harder for me to get in and out of
[02:17] <Pendulum> I've named it Ivy :)
[02:17] <Pendulum> (yes, I name things :) )
[02:19] <duanedesign> :)
[02:19] <JanC> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Chevrolet_Cavalier#Third_generation --> this?
[02:21] <jcastro> I had a 2nd generation cavalier!
[02:22] <Pendulum> I don't know what generation
[02:22] <JanC> judging from the engines, it can't have low milage, but maybe that's just a European viewpoint  ;)
[02:23] <Pendulum> it had 74k when I bought it
[02:23] <Pendulum> it's not quite up to 76k
[02:26] <JanC> it has a quite large engine for a car that size...
[02:39] <ScottL> doctormo, ping
[02:44] <doctormo> ScottL: pong
[02:46] <ScottL> doctormo, can we go private for a minute?
[02:51] <doctormo> ScottL: Sure thing
[04:18] <Technoviking> any CC folks here?
[04:58]  * pleia2 hugs Technoviking
[05:14] <doctormo> Technoviking: problems with CC?
[05:15] <doctormo> Oh you mean Community Council, not Creative Commons
[05:15]  * doctormo goes for a lye down
[07:44]  * popey tickles Technoviking
[08:04] <kim0> Morning o/
[08:57] <dholbach> good morning
[08:57] <kim0> dholbach: morning
[08:58] <dholbach> hi kim0
[09:08] <huats> morning
[09:22] <dholbach> salut huats mon ami
[09:22] <huats> hello my dear friend dholbach !
[11:38] <duanedesign> 'lo all
[11:38] <Pendulum> hiya :)
[11:41] <duanedesign> heya Pendulum
[11:43] <duanedesign> dholbach: i worked on the outline to start on the packkaging guide screencasts.
[11:43] <dholbach> yoooohooo!
[11:43] <dholbach> duanedesign, how does it work out?
[11:46] <duanedesign> dholbach: seems like  it can be split between two screencasts http://paste.ubuntu.com/568689/
[11:48] <duanedesign>  though I am a little worried about each one being a little long.   Sigh.
[15:56] <dholbach> ok my friends - I'm going to call it a day in a bit - have a great weekend every one
[15:56] <dholbach> nigelb, hope you get better soon again
[15:56] <nigelb> thanks dholbach, g'nite :)
[16:08] <Technoviking> where are irc logs stored at?
[16:11] <nigelb> Technoviking: irclogs.ubuntu.com
[16:12] <Technoviking> nigelb: thanks, duh on me
[16:12] <nigelb> :)
[16:13] <Technoviking> crap #ubuuntuforums is not logged? /faceplam
[16:19]  * czajkowski hugs Technoviking
[16:24] <popey> hahah
[16:43] <maco> Technoviking: jdong probably has logs
[16:49] <Technoviking> maco: i got logs from irssi, but not very official
[16:51] <maco> ah ok
[16:57] <jcastro> can I get a RT please? I have no followers: http://twitter.com/#!/castrojo/status/38643201854283776
[16:58] <Pendulum> jcastro: I RTed, hopefully others will too :)
[17:01] <jcastro> Technoviking: how's the new hw working out?
[17:20] <Technoviking> jcastro: pretty good, have had a couple of hiccups, probably mysql related
[17:21] <Technoviking> think the whole forums database need to be repaired and optimized
[17:39] <jcastro> Pendulum: are they not using the bot for this?
[17:40] <Pendulum> jcastro: is it not picking questions up?
[17:41] <jcastro> no I guess they were told that I would just paste in the questions
[17:41] <jcastro> *shrug*
[17:41] <Pendulum> oh, that may be because jono doesn't use the bot
[17:41] <paultag> for the classroom?
[17:41] <paultag> if they prefix with QUESTION: it should pick it up, it has a stack queue system
[17:41] <paultag> and you can pop questions off the top
[17:42] <Pendulum> jcastro: the bot's there and it should be working and you should be able to just do it that way
[17:42] <paultag> I guess it's not a stack
[17:42] <paultag> it's one way, so a simple fifo queue
[17:42] <jcastro> it's ok
[17:42] <Pendulum> paultag: I don't think this is a bot problem. it's sounding to me like a people thing
[17:42] <Technoviking> jcastro: you need to dress in meat and live in Hollywood to get more followers:)
[17:45] <jussi> anyone know when jono is about?
[17:46] <Technoviking> jcastro and jono: ping
[17:46] <jussi> Technoviking: fyi, if you get that bounce message, its just in our moderation queue, and we will accept it when we see it. :)
[17:47] <Technoviking> jussi: my work email is kinda bouncy, so wanted to make sure
[17:47] <jussi> Technoviking: ahh fair enough. both got here though :)
[17:48] <jcastro> Technoviking: doing an irc session
[17:49] <jcastro> jono has the day off
[17:50] <jussi> Technoviking: anyway, its simply a request to rt as described here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Bots
[17:50] <jussi> hrm, need more info there.
[17:51] <Technoviking> jcastro: will ping you later then
[17:55] <jussi> Technoviking: anyway, if you want the channel logged, just mail rt asking for it to be logged. as long as its in our namespace, thats  fine :)
[18:33] <jcastro> kim0: heh, you can lead it on ustream. :p
[18:33] <kim0> jcastro: I just think it'd be more interactive and fun
[18:34] <jcastro> yeah, there's only so much typing you can do on irc in an hour
[18:35] <kim0> indeed
[18:36] <jcastro> any of you watch Fringe?
[18:42] <Technoviking> jcastro: yeah
[18:42] <pleia2> yep
[18:42] <jcastro> ok so I started a few weeks ago
[18:42] <jcastro> now I am all caught up
[18:42] <jcastro> and like, I can't wait for fridays now
[18:42] <pleia2> hehe
[18:42] <jcastro> plus Spartacus is on too on fridays
[18:43] <Technoviking> Mondays are my favorite, House and Top Gear, also the chance to watch Robot Chicken on Tivo
[18:44] <vish> jcastro: astro!
[18:44] <jcastro> asterisk, come here
[18:44] <jcastro> can you get me that lsd over there asprin?
[18:45] <vish> haha!
[18:45] <jcastro> http://fringepedia.net/wiki/Astrid_Farnsworth#Trivia
[18:46] <jcastro> the internet never lets me down
[19:24] <vish> is monday a holiday in the US?
[19:26] <JFo> yep
[19:26] <JFo> President's Day
[19:26] <vish> JFo: oh! thx
[19:26] <JFo> my pleasure :)
[19:27] <jcastro> JFo: wait
[19:27] <jcastro> we're off on monday?
[19:28] <sense> Next week is school holiday here! :) I think I'll give the Unity API a try, if can get Unity to run stable. Nouveau now works again with Compiz, but it seems to freeze after a while.
[19:28] <vish> sense: hey!!!
[19:28] <sense> A whole week of free!
[19:28] <JFo> jcastro, yep yep :)
[20:29] <jcastro> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eglibc/+bug/721469
[20:29] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 721469 in eglibc "program startup fails with "Inconsistency detected by ld.so: dl-deps.c: 622: _dl_map_object_deps: Assertion `nlist > 1' failed!"" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[20:29] <jcastro> if you're on natty and amd64 don't upgrade please
[20:30] <Technoviking> jcastro: got an UDS topic, cimmunity behavior in social networks
[20:31] <jcastro> k, when things are open in lp that would be a nice one
[20:31] <jcastro> Technoviking: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1690530
[20:31] <jcastro> can we put big stars/sticky on this, etc.
[20:32] <jcastro> man, we gotta consolidate the stickies in this subform
[20:32] <jcastro> this is a bit too much right now
[20:36] <Technoviking> yeah, I will think how to clean up, made an announement for your post, expires Tueaday
[20:36] <Technoviking> Think that is long enough?
[20:37] <jcastro> it should be sorted like, in an hour or so
[20:37] <jcastro> they're fixing it as we speak
[20:37] <Technoviking> ok, will expire it tomorrow
[20:37] <jcastro> that should be enough
[20:38] <popey> jcastro: any idea when we'll have an nvidia driver?
[20:38] <popey> I've not been able to use natty for two weeks
[20:38] <Technoviking> ok changed
[20:38] <jcastro> popey: no clue, I'm held back
[20:39] <popey> wish I was
[20:40]  * popey grabs an alpha 1 iso to reinstall
[20:40] <popey> which is now gone
[20:41] <popey> only alpha 2, which was made after the xorg upgrade
[20:41] <popey> magic
[20:41] <JFo> hmmm
[20:43] <JFo> popey, let me dig around some. I probably have a natty Alpha 1 iso somewhere
[20:43] <popey> ta
[20:43] <JFo> you need i386 or x64?
[20:43] <popey> 64
[20:43] <JFo> k
[20:48] <JFo> popey, no joy :-/
[20:48] <JFo> I looked everywhere
[20:48] <popey> thanks for looking
[20:49] <JFo> if I do come across it today I will put it somewhere you can get to it
[20:50] <JanC> popey: you can probably find daily .iso that was alpha 1?
[20:50] <popey> I can?
[20:50] <popey> they only keep 2 days of dailys
[20:50] <popey> alpha1 was over 2 weeks ago
[20:50] <JanC> hm, apparently also gone
[20:50] <jcastro> popey: wrt. to your last tweet we had to move to xorg 1.10 or we'd be doomed
[20:51] <JanC> they used to keep more dailies...  ☺
[20:51] <popey> could have been better publicsised that "hey, no 3d for you!"
[20:52] <jcastro> well it was on -devel
[20:52] <jcastro> sure, we could always make more noise, but that's a long way from "piss poor planning"
[20:52] <jcastro> just piss poor communication
[20:52] <jcastro> I blame JFo
[20:53] <JFo> me too... errr
[20:53] <popey> you dont think that having a brand new 3d desktop in testing, and the market leading video card manufacturer that actually supports that 3d desktop feature not having a driver might be bad planning?
[20:54] <jcastro> right, it sucks
[20:54] <popey> also, the -devel notice was nowhere near explicit enough
[20:54] <JanC> intel is the market-leading video core manufacturer for desktops  ;)
[20:54] <popey> I remember reading it
[20:54] <popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-x/2011-January/001042.html
[20:54] <popey> search that page for "nvidia"
[20:55] <JanC> popey: I think there were no AMD closed source drivers either?
[20:55] <jcastro> nope
[20:56] <JanC> maybe they could have waited a week with the new xorg, but OTOH then they wouldn't have a lot less testing of it for the open source drivers...
[20:57] <JanC> s/n't//
[20:58] <JanC> (in the beginning the intel driver was not exactly working very well either)
[20:58] <jcastro> it's pretty much lose/lose
[20:58] <jcastro> but needs to happen
[20:58] <jcastro> I know it sucks
[20:59] <jcastro> I'm trying to get people contributing to unity and I am missing out on everyone with an ATI and nvidia card
[20:59] <popey> I am being offered Debian unstable ISOs :D
[21:00] <JanC> I haven't tried on my AMD yet, but it tends to work fine with the open source drivers...
[21:01] <jcastro> yeah, it's the closed ones that are the suckfest
[21:03] <doctormo> jcastro: Dragging software into the new century, kicking and screaming.
[21:03] <doctormo> suckfest is what it is.
[21:07] <JanC> maybe they should have made an alpha 2a and alpha 2b...   :P
[21:08] <jcastro> it's ok, luckily I have an intel card so I never get screwed.
[21:08] <jcastro> OH WAIT.
[21:10] <JanC> generally I prefer a broken graphics driver over a broken libc though  ;)
[21:10] <JFo> me too :-/
[21:10] <jcastro> yeah
[21:11]  * JFo has a nice, useless netbook now.
[21:11] <jcastro> at least we caught it and are removing it from the archive
[21:11] <jcastro> that could have been much worse say ... over the weekend
[21:11] <jcastro> JFo: hold on
[21:11] <jcastro> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/e/eglibc/
[21:11] <jcastro> ubuntu16 is what you want
[21:17] <popey> keeping the alpha 1 iso around on the server might have been handy.
[21:20] <jcastro> kim0: around?
[21:35] <kim0> jcastro: hey
[21:35] <kim0> whats up
[21:36] <jcastro> know anyone doing VDI on UEC or amazon?
[21:37] <kim0> x2go ?
[21:37] <kim0> you mean just remote desktops or something more complex
[21:37] <jcastro> I think they want to do a ton of windows clients but not pay the huge vmware tax
[21:37] <jcastro> he didn't really give me much info, just a tweet
[21:37] <kim0> who's he :)
[21:37] <jcastro> oh, old army buddy, he does some IT stuff for them
[21:38] <kim0> so he wants to run ubuntu remotely and access it from windows ?
[21:38] <kim0> or the reverse
[21:38] <jcastro> I think he wants to run windows clients on UEC
[21:38] <jcastro> but it doesn't really work like that right?
[21:39] <kim0> you want to run the "client" on the cloud ?
[21:39] <jcastro> right
[21:39] <kim0> and what would be the server
[21:39] <jcastro> his own UEC setup presumably
[21:39] <doctormo> kim0: The server is the cloud, the desktops are vm clients.
[21:39] <jcastro> I mailed him asking him for details, maybe someone from marketing or something can call him
[21:40] <jcastro> I (think) VMWare sells this predone with ESX
[21:40] <kim0> yeah
[21:40] <jcastro> where the computers in the office turn into LTSP-like things but they run VMs
[21:40] <kim0> doctormo: what's vm clients ? like what OS is that
[21:40] <jcastro> I think they have their own shim thing based on rhel
[21:41] <jcastro> kim0: anyway, to more important things, XBMC!
[21:41] <kim0> there's ehum .. redhat spice VDI stuff
[21:41] <doctormo> kim0: Think of it as a licensing trick, they want to use Windows, but without paying for it.
[21:41] <jcastro> well no
[21:41] <jcastro> they still pay for the license
[21:41] <kim0> well
[21:41] <kim0> I know of a trick
[21:41] <kim0> you can take a WinXP box
[21:41] <kim0> and apply a dll patch
[21:41] <jcastro> the benefit is they only have one desktop image everyone can run
[21:41] <kim0> and magically launch 100 remote desktops
[21:42] <kim0> although by design it shouldn't be able to do that
[21:42] <kim0> whether or not that's legal is .. ehum a different story
[21:42] <kim0> I'm not sure actually .. not saying it isnt
[21:42] <jcastro> you can't
[21:42] <jcastro> I tried that at my last job. :)
[21:42] <kim0> legally or technically
[21:42] <jcastro> both
[21:42] <kim0> nah .. I am doing it
[21:42] <kim0> ehum
[21:42] <jcastro> 100?
[21:43] <kim0> well 20
[21:43] <jcastro> you don't hit some client limit thing?
[21:43] <kim0> just for testing .. may I add
[21:44] <jcastro> though, the ESX/VDI thing only makes sense with tons of clients
[21:44] <kim0> VDI doesn't really help save any licensing AFAICT
[21:44] <kim0> it's useful to centralize desktops .. backups .. etc
[21:44] <kim0> you still pay MS and VMware
[21:45] <jcastro> yeah I am pretty sure once you add up all the ESX bits ...
[21:45] <kim0> no matter what terminal server software you use
[21:46] <kim0> you still have to pay MS afaik
[21:46] <kim0> boy I hate that MS world :)
[21:47] <kim0> like to pretend they just don't exist hehe
[21:47] <jcastro> the best is when you buy their own central thing
[21:47] <jcastro> they ding you TWICE
[21:48] <jcastro> you need a normal license, and a CAL
[21:48] <kim0> yes I remember once hearing that $h1t
[21:48] <maco> obfuscated swearing is still swearing
[21:48] <kim0> I was standing there refusing to believe this is actually how it works
[21:49] <kim0> jcastro: Might wanna check out http://www.2x.com/terminalserver/
[21:49] <jcastro> hah you got maco'ed
[21:49] <kim0> no idea if that saves on anything
[21:49]  * kim0 weeps to maco .. please forgive me :)
[21:51] <jcastro> maco: did you watch Modern Family yet? It was on on Wednesday
[21:52] <maco> jcastro: i last owned a tv in 2008
[21:52] <maco> i will be getting broadband tomorrow
[21:52] <jcastro> http://www.imdb.com/media/rm33590528/nm1736769
[21:52]  * doctormo cheers for broadband
[21:52] <kim0> maco: how broad is that
[21:53] <doctormo> I've been watching Andrew Mar's History of Modern Britian. Fantastic stuff.
[21:55] <JanC> you need to pay Microsoft a license for every concurrent user, but they won't sell you any extra licenses for the same WinXP box, so...
[21:56] <JanC> the guy who sells Ubuntu multiseats here in Belgium asked Microsoft about it because another company started selling WinXP multiseats without extra licenses...   :P
[21:57] <kim0> JanC: so basically no way to save money with MS right ? any way you still pay per concurrent user
[22:00] <JanC> kim0: and not only for Windows, you also have to pay a license per user for most of the software you use on it...   ;)
[22:00] <kim0> horrible mess
[22:01] <kim0> A MS guy once told me a simple rule .. if you touch it, you pay for it :)
[22:03] <JanC> http://www.multiseatcomputer.be/mslicense.pdf --> "Licensing Windows Client and Server Operating Systems in Multiuser Scenarios"
[22:04] <doctormo> kim0: The other simple rule: "If Microsoft had anything to do with it, don't touch it"
[22:04] <kim0> yeah, that's what all of us try to do I guess :)
[22:04] <kim0> and as much as I don't like to admit it .. Apple is mostly worse
[22:05] <JanC> depends for what, their server stuff is open source mostly
[22:05] <doctormo> kim0: "A frightful specter is haunting the land, it is the specter of Applism" :-P
[22:05] <kim0> hehe
[22:06] <JanC> OTOH, working at Apple can't be fun
[22:06] <kim0> JanC: that's the stuff they haven't written themselves ;)
[22:06] <JanC> kim0: they wrote some of it themselves (e.g. calendar server)
[22:06] <JanC> and teh yown CUPS of course
[22:07] <kim0> they bought it yeah
[22:07] <kim0> I can't think of something they "chose" to open source, rather than being forced to
[22:08] <JanC> just heard in the #fosdem channel the only main talk that won't have a video on-line is from an Apple employee, speaker videos are forbidden for all Apple employees (except Steve Jobs, I guess)
[22:08] <kim0> OMG!!
[22:08] <doctormo> kim0: Lets be honest, free and open source isn't something elites really like.
[22:08] <kim0> Google likes
[22:08] <kim0> and Ubuntu is elite as well :P
[22:09] <doctormo> kim0: They're more friendly, but I account that to their lack of elitism. :-P
[22:09] <JanC> kim0: calendarserver was something they wrote themselves I think?
[22:09] <kim0> not sure :/ who uses that
[22:09] <JanC> it's in the Ubuntu repos  ;)
[22:09] <doctormo> Ubuntu is weird, we have stuff going on which isn't good, but at the same time it's still out best shot at getting FOSS out there.
[22:09] <doctormo> our*
[22:10] <JanC> kim0: another thing is Darwin Streaming Server
[22:11] <kim0> is that not based on any open sourcish stuff
[22:13] <JanC> it's under the Apple Public Source License (and is apparently used by Akamai & Youtube)
[22:13] <kim0> youtube! that's surprising
[22:15] <JanC> wikipedia says they use it for streaming to mobile phones
[22:16] <kim0> yeah .. still would hope Apple became more open though .. they have a long way to go
[22:16] <kim0> JanC: what was the Apple talk about
[22:17] <JanC> llvm + clang
[22:18] <kim0> hmm that would have been cool
[22:18] <kim0> to watch that is
[22:20] <JanC> and a braindead corporate policy from Apple, forbiding promotion of one of their products to potential users & collaboraters...  :P
[22:20] <kim0> haha indeed :)
[22:23] <doctormo> JanC: Then that's good for us, isn't it?
[22:23] <JanC> doctormo: we use/need llvm too!
[22:24] <JanC> including to make graphics drivers better  ☺
[22:25] <doctormo> ⚔⚔ Yes, but do we need to see this to that?
[22:25] <popey> doctormo: you talking about art team stuff?
[22:25] <JanC> well, somebody seeing it could become a contributor, so who knows?
[22:26] <doctormo> popey: no, not today, not well enough
[22:26] <popey> oh ok, it was just the "we have stuff going on which isn't good"
[22:26] <popey> read into it
[22:26] <popey> wrongly