[08:56] <thom> unreproducible with unstripped/debug enabled firefox
[08:56] <T-Bone> thom: lemme guess: failed on the second run?
[08:56] <T-Bone> sigh
[08:56] <thom> T-Bone: that'd be a good thing
[08:57] <thom> this'll be fun to debug, then
[08:57] <Kamion> lamont_r: burning
[08:57] <T-Bone> thom: this is madness :P
[08:57] <lamont_r> thanks - I freely admit that my laptop sucks
[08:57] <lamont_r> although it does actually have 256MB
[08:57] <thom> T-Bone: s/madness/mozilla firefox/ and you're pretty close to the truth
[08:57] <lamont_r> of ram
[08:58] <T-Bone> thom: heh. That could be said of quite some packages (ooo, glibc... :)
[08:58] <thom> Kamion: so what does a kickstart file look like?
[08:58] <T-Bone> lamont_r: if that's quantic ram, where each bit can be 0 and 1 at the same time, no wonder why it fails :)
[08:59] <Kamion> lamont_r: damn, it was using the old vmlinuz
[08:59] <Kamion> lamont_r: i.e. -23 ... sorry
[09:00] <Kamion> lamont_r: the daily d-i build must have predated -24 making it into the archive
[09:00] <lamont_r> and what's with this 3 minutes from the language questions to gnome splash, eh?
[09:00] <Kamion> thom: my current test one is:
[09:00] <Kamion> lang en_GB
[09:00] <Kamion> langsupport --default=en_GB de_DE
[09:00] <Kamion> keyboard uk
[09:00] <Kamion> timezone --utc Europe/London
[09:00] <lamont_r> Kamion: certainly did.
[09:00] <lamont_r> feh
[09:00] <T-Bone> lamont_r: that's genlocale, at your se(r)vice
[09:00] <lamont_r> Kamion: let me go kick a set of daily-di's
[09:00] <Kamion> lamont_r: smurfix uploaded a proper d-i today, checking to see if it's in the archive now
[09:00] <Kamion> lamont_r: should be no need
[09:00] <lamont_r> oh, even better
[09:00] <Kamion> T-Bone: sevice?
[09:01] <thom> Kamion: that's all? sweet
[09:01] <Kamion> thom: well, that only preseeds part of the install, it's not complete
[09:01] <thom> sure
[09:01] <T-Bone> Kamion: "abuse" in french
[09:01] <thom> i was expecting some xml monstrosity
[09:01] <Kamion> there aren't actually appropriate kickstart variables for all of the questions we ask (e.g. initial username/password)
[09:01] <Kamion> so I need to extend the format a bit
[09:02] <Kamion> elmo: could you byhand d-i ubuntu17?
[09:02] <elmo> done
[09:02] <Kamion> ta
[09:02] <Kamion> wow, that was quick
[09:03] <thom> i think we should blame elmo for the ldd madness on ia64
[09:03] <lamont_r> thom: remember - he knows where you live
[09:04] <T-Bone> lol
[09:04] <thom> lamont_r: this is true, but given his usual performance when driving round london, i'm pretty safe
[09:05] <Kamion> ha, bye-bye dhcp spew
[09:05] <lamont_r> it seems to not do anything with interface-mtu when specified
[09:05] <thom> threaded bugs are such sex
[09:06] <thom> why did no-one harass me about this before?!
[09:06] <lamont_r> thom: because we thought you had tried and failed? :-)
[09:07] <thom> lamont_r: really? if i had i would've whined loudly and got colin to fix it :P
[09:08] <Kamion> why me? :P
[09:09] <T-Bone> Kamion: because you *can*? :)
[09:09] <thom> it's perl and a bug tracking system
[09:09] <Kamion> oh, that sort of threading
[09:09] <thom> in the end, it must be your fault somewhere
[09:09] <T-Bone> lol
[09:09] <trulux> ajmitch: we may need a new mailing list at Ubuntu for SELinux discussion
[09:09] <trulux> ajmitch: is that possible?
[09:09] <Kamion> I keep thinking you mean firefox
[09:09] <thom> Kamion: if you want to fix firefox, you're more than welcome to
[09:09] <thom> i really won't complain ;-)
[09:10] <lamont_r> Kamion: so how fast do livecd's create?
[09:10] <Kamion> lamont_r: about five minutes for the lot
[09:10] <trulux> mdz: hi?
[09:10] <lamont_r> does that mean I can hit return?
[09:10] <thom> hrm, firefox is not fast with debugging symbols
[09:11] <Kamion> lamont_r: on what?
[09:11] <lamont_r> rsync'ing yet another one.
[09:11] <Kamion> lamont_r: no, the d-i byhand hasn't hit the archive yet
[09:11] <jbailey> Kamion: I just got back - do you still have questions about glibc's build system?
[09:11] <lamont_r> or are we still waiting for the d-i upload to publsih?
[09:11] <Kamion> or at least not the mirror on little
[09:12] <Kamion> jbailey: nah, after a bit more investigation we redirected our ire in the direction of the monstrosity known as ia32-libs
[09:12] <lamont_r> elmo: is it time for another mid-day day end? :-)
[09:12] <elmo> it's on the other mirrors
[09:12] <elmo> you should be able to pull it into little
[09:12] <jbailey> Kamion: Lovely, if you need anything else from it, lemme know.  I wrote what's there now.  if you think it's bad now, you should've seen it before I touched it the first time. =)
[09:13] <jbailey> Kamion: It's due for a post {hoary,sarge} simplification pass, though.
[09:13] <lamont_r> jbailey: it was pretty then? :)
[09:13] <Kamion> elmo: hm, maybe I synced too early
[09:13] <jbailey> lamont_r: Well, it didn't use debhelper, and all the arch stuff was spread throughout with nested if statements.
[09:13] <T-Bone> lamont_r: you should have seen that: nice shapes all around :)
[09:14] <lamont_r> jbailey: ew!
[09:14] <jbailey> lamont_r: And there was about 3 times as much perl to get it all glued together.
[09:14] <mdz> trulux: hi
[09:14] <Kamion> no, apparently auckland is just slow
[09:15] <Kamion> hm, but no "update in progress" file
[09:15] <elmo> are you still mirroring off auckland?
[09:15] <elmo> I should move you over to syowa
[09:16] <elmo> when, err, I finished reinstalling it
[09:16] <trulux> mdz: hey mdz, I've asked ajmith for a new mailing list, ubuntu-selinux
[09:16] <trulux> mdz: is that possible?
[09:17] <elmo> trulux: why are you asking ajmitch?
[09:17] <Kamion> elmo: yeah, auckland is the one I have the private rsync access to
[09:18] <trulux> elmo: just because he is an ubuntu dev and he is also in the selinux work team
[09:18] <trulux> :)
[09:18] <mdz> trulux: can we make it a bit more general, perhaps a mailing list about ubuntu and proactive security?
[09:18] <Kamion> mirnyy doesn't have it either though
[09:18] <elmo> Kamion: eh
[09:18] <trulux> mdz: sure
[09:19] <trulux> mdz: good idea :)
[09:19] <mdz> trulux: if so, I have no problem with it; jdub would be the person to nag about creating the list
[09:19] <trulux> mdz: ok
[09:19] <elmo> GAR
[09:19] <elmo> syowa being down has broken the mirroring
[09:19] <lamont_r> hrm.. that was the wrong button
[09:19] <mdz> trulux: are you sure there is enough to discuss that we can't do it on ubuntu-devel instead?
[09:19] <trulux> mdz: I'm also going to make the basic selinux-support metapackage (writing it now) and then hack dpkg layout to remove the dirty post-insttricks for files labeling
[09:20] <trulux> mdz: the list will start getting *lots* of issues
[09:20] <trulux> mdz: look at fedora-selinux
[09:20] <trulux> traffic
[09:20] <trulux> :)
[09:20] <mdz> good point; I wasn't thinking of support issues
[09:20] <trulux> among the development discussion
[09:20] <trulux> mdz: separation is good for this, -devel and support ones
[09:20] <trulux> so
[09:20] <trulux> we keep our devs organized
[09:20] <trulux> and clean
[09:20] <trulux> as we do here
[09:21] <trulux> if someone asks, we say "#ubuntu, not here"
[09:21] <elmo> Kamion: fixed really now, sorry
[09:21] <Kamion> elmo: looks good, thanks
[09:24] <Kamion> elmo: so, er, sorry for making a package obsolete a day after introducing it :)
[09:25] <Kamion> didn't quite expect that
[09:25] <lamont_r> you go Kamion ! :-)
[09:28] <Kamion> it's publishing
[09:28] <Kamion> nearly there
[09:30] <Kamion> lamont_r: it's up
[09:35] <trulux> mdz: also, is there any chance on introducing the gcc-hardened packages in Hoary?
[09:36] <lamont_r> wow - that was a fast rsync
[09:36] <lamont_r>    503156736 100%    3.11MB/s    0:02:34  (1, 100.0% of 1)
[09:36] <T-Bone> heh
[09:36] <lamont_r> it's actually going to take longer to burn
[09:36] <lamont_r> (<10MB actually transferred)
[09:37] <Kamion> well, the rootfs didn't change
[09:37] <mdz> trulux: in universe, sure
[09:37] <lamont_r> exactly
[09:37] <mdz> trulux: assuming it doesn't involve replacing libgcc
[09:37] <mdz> (or anything else in main)
[09:37] <trulux> it does not
[09:37] <trulux> :)
[09:37] <trulux> will not :)
[09:38] <trulux> mdz: oops, here there's a woman that calls me for dinner
[09:38] <trulux> she can get angry, and the food, cold
[09:38] <thom> so, the cure to get firefox-locale-* to work on ia64 is to ship firefox with debug symbols and unstripped. everyone happy with this? great
[09:38] <trulux> so
[09:38] <trulux> bbl
[09:38] <trulux> :)
[09:38] <T-Bone> doko: so as far as i understand, i'd have to add gcc-4.0 source to the srcs in ia32-libs, a modified source that will build lib32gcc1 on a 32bit system, right?
[09:41] <Kamion> thom: er, yuck :)
[09:43] <lamont_r> thom: only on ia64, right? :-)
[09:43] <lamont_r> fixating
[09:43] <lamont_r> thom: so what you're saying is that it appears to be an uninitialized variable or something?
[09:44] <T-Bone> mdz: re your mail on d-devel, it actually took 8h to make it. That's why i sent you the mail, though you had already answered
[09:44] <mdz> T-Bone: I was travelling, and it was queued on my laptop
[09:44] <thom> lamont-away: guess so
[09:46] <T-Bone> mdz: i'd be interested to know what are the issues you consider as troublesome WRT hoary (pending OOo fixup, and recent firefox b0rkage...)
[09:54] <mdz> T-Bone: preview is in less than three weeks, it still has major breakage and has seen very little testing
[09:54] <ubuntu> well - 4 minutes + to boot, and pcmcia didn't seem to start itself
[09:55] <T-Bone> mdz: define major breakage please
[09:55] <T-Bone> mdz: it won't see anymore testing if we don't advertise it either...
[09:55] <mdz> T-Bone: ia64 is at about the point now where it needed to be at feature freeze
[09:55] <mdz> we will not cobble it together at the last minute and then call it an officially supported product
[09:55] <doko> T-Bone: yes, exactly
[09:56] <mdz> T-Bone: is there some reason you have not advertised it?
[09:57] <T-Bone> mdz: i don't see what's the problem. Put aside that firefox bug that has recently come up, and the OOo issue i'm fixing, there ain't such "major borkage"
[09:57] <T-Bone> mdz: your mail was reading as if ia64 was on the same level as sparc, which is definitely not the case
[09:57] <T-Bone> doko: ok. Special areas I should be extra carefull (when repackaging the modified gcc source maybe?)
[09:58] <Simira> do anyone here have some time to help me with a system/warty issue? I'm moving a system from one disc to another.
[09:58] <T-Bone> mdz: i haven't advertise because that's Not My Job (tm)
[09:58] <T-Bone> +d
[09:58] <mdz> T-Bone: that's exactly the problem with ia64; no one is owning the problems
[09:58] <Kamion> T-Bone: why isn't it your job?
[09:58] <T-Bone> mdz: i beg your pardon. I'm asked to put up, I do
[09:59] <mdz> T-Bone: you won't take responsibility for leading the porting effort, but you want me to take responsibility for it as an officially supported architecture?
[09:59] <T-Bone> Kamion: because I'm not dealing with 'press releases' of any kind. I've posted around requesting testing already, some noise has been made... I can't summon the community toward that work if it's not willing to look at it
[10:00] <T-Bone> mdz: Since when should I take responsibility for the architecture?
[10:00] <T-Bone> who is officially responsible for x86, ppc and amd64?
[10:00] <Kamion> in fairness http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/ia64 says Thierry Simonnet is leading the port team; I haven't really seen much from him
[10:00] <T-Bone> mdz: bear in mind that i'm a 24-year-old student, and that I do opensource as a hobby.
[10:00] <Kamion> Mithrandir leads the amd64 team
[10:01] <mdz> T-Bone said that he would lead ia64, but then he withdrew and said he was leaving town, and Thierry Simonnet was supposed to take over.  Thierry Simonnet didn't answer my emails about ia64
[10:01] <T-Bone> Mithrandir works for Canonical, doesn't he?
[10:01] <mdz> no
[10:01] <T-Bone> mdz: i *never* said i would lead ia64
[10:01] <T-Bone> mdz: because I *always* knew I couldn't do it
[10:02] <T-Bone> because I have a life aside Ubuntu
[10:02] <mdz> I'll have to dig up the email exchange
[10:02] <Kamion> i386, powerpc, and amd64 are all architectures with enough of an install base among all of the initial Ubuntu developers that there wasn't so much of a need for a port lead, though
[10:02] <T-Bone> a MS (and next year a PhD) can't be prepared out of a few hours of work you see...
[10:03] <mdz> you are not making any sense
[10:03] <T-Bone> i'm sorry that you can't understand me
[10:03] <T-Bone> let me recap: i started that work on a student project which was expected to have a beginning and an end.
[10:03] <Kamion> the point is not that we expect you in particular to have time to lead the port; it's fine that you only have a certain amount of time to contribute, and we're glad you're contributing that time
[10:04] <T-Bone> I decided to pursue my work on my freetime, as I often do on Open Source projects I involve myself in
[10:04] <Kamion> the issue is that somebody, or some group of people, does need to have enough time to take fairly consistent responsibility for driving the port forward
[10:04] <T-Bone> Kamion: that's definitely a sure thing. But I can't be that group
[10:05] <Kamion> and if the leader is spending most of his/her time delegating and making sure the minions :-) get the actual bulk of the work done, that's also fine
[10:05] <T-Bone> Kamion: and (as a freelance/studant), I don't hold the wires in the background, if you see what I mean
[10:05] <Kamion> ok, we're not saying *you* have to be
[10:05] <mdz> T-Bone: neither you nor anyone else is willing to take responsibility for it.  this is why it is not ready.
[10:06] <T-Bone> mdz: maybe. But in no way I can be held responsible for this.
[10:06] <Kamion> this isn't a question of apportioning guilt
[10:06] <T-Bone> I fulfilled all the commitment I involved myself in, so far
[10:06] <T-Bone> +s
[10:07] <T-Bone> even those I knew it'd be very hard for me to cope with given some extraneous very troublesome events that happened to me
[10:07] <T-Bone> Kamion: that's ok. It feels like i'm being blamed for things I haven't done.
[10:09] <T-Bone> nobody seemed to have noticed that the burden is on *my* shoulders, if nobody else hack on ia64, btw :P
[10:09] <Kamion> I don't think anyone's blaming, and I don't think it's productive to think of it in terms of blame; it will only get everyone upset
[10:09] <T-Bone> to that extent i'm very thankful to you (kamion) and lamont for your valuable help
[10:09] <Kamion> including yourself :)
[10:09] <T-Bone> heh
[10:10] <Kamion> actually, if nobody else hacks on ia64, the buck has a habit of stopping at Canonical by default; and there's only so much effort we can afford to put in
[10:10] <Einzelganger> Are there any tests (subscribed,spam) on sending mails to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>I tried to send a (long) mail 2 days ago, but it didn't arrive.
[10:11] <Kamion> Einzelganger: it's moderated for non-subscribers
[10:11] <T-Bone> Kamion: 'the buck'?
[10:11] <Kamion> T-Bone: responsibility
[10:11] <remi`> if I may add my grain of salt to the ia64 conversation, i'm part of the students team working for/with thierry simonnet
[10:11] <T-Bone> Kamion: err, then I don't get what you said :P
[10:11] <mdz> T-Bone: I'm not blaming you; I'm trying to explain to you that official support for an architecture requires more than having things compile
[10:12] <Kamion> T-Bone: one of the things that was brought up in Mataro as a means of reducing the "but *you* get paid for it" resentment was to point out that people who're paid to hack also get told what to hack on, and thus basically end up doing the boring stuff that nobody else wants to do
[10:12] <Kamion> T-Bone: which tends to include picking up the pieces from things nobody else is actively supporting
[10:12] <Kamion> T-Bone: but we do have limited resources and we need to limit our exposure to that
[10:12] <T-Bone> roger that
[10:14] <Kamion> T-Bone: ("the buck stops here" is an English idiom, BTW, meaning roughly "the responsibility ends up here if nobody else assumes it")
[10:14] <T-Bone> but then if ia64 isn't part of Canonical's priority, maybe it shouldn't be ever considered for "support". Unless you're willing to rely on community support only, which can vary alot, as one can see...
[10:14] <Einzelganger> How often is it moderated, and do you get a message if/why something is refused ? (send 24 hours ago actually) ?
[10:14] <T-Bone> Kamion: ah ok :)
[10:14] <Kamion> Einzelganger: I think it's on a "when mako/jdub get around to it" basis ...
[10:15] <Kamion> T-Bone: the original intent was that it should be a largely community-supported port, certainly
[10:15] <T-Bone> Kamion: seems that the ia64 community is a rather peculiar one
[10:15] <lamont_r> moo
[10:15] <lamont_r> Kamion: much happier livecd
[10:15] <lamont_r> just placed one with someone I met in the coffee shop
[10:16] <Einzelganger> I'll try to send it again then with a reply-to which is the same as my subscribed email-adres. This moderation is that fairly new, I send this month and it seemed to be immediatly send ?
[10:16] <mdz> yes.  Canonical contributed the necessary hardware, with the expectation of support from the community to drive the port
[10:16] <Kamion> with support from Canonical people where necessary (e.g. lamont's basically the only person with access to munge the buildds, I'm basically the only person with access to munge CD images, etc.)
[10:16] <mako> Einzelganger: i'll look at it
[10:17] <Einzelganger> mako, ah, ok
[10:17] <Kamion> Einzelganger: it's been moderated from day one AFAIK
[10:17] <Kamion> lamont_r: cool
[10:17] <elmo> Kamion: [and launchpad's meant to fix that]
[10:17] <Kamion> elmo: right
[10:17] <T-Bone> Kamion: yeah. As I understand it, if canonical has bought machines, I fail to see why Canonical's people (which are the only ones to access them) wouldn't have ia64 listed on their tasks...
[10:18] <Kamion> T-Bone: hence "where necessary"; most of the porting effort should not be resting on the shoulders of those with direct access to the buildds
[10:19] <T-Bone> as to the community support, it looks (to me) that the 'community' is waiting to have a "released" product to draw a "verdict" on it...
[10:19] <mdz> T-Bone: if the community is waiting for someone else to deliver a port, that is backwards
[10:19] <T-Bone> Kamion: sure. That's where I (tried to) do my part of the job
[10:19] <T-Bone> mdz: alas
[10:20] <Kamion> T-Bone: right
[10:20] <Kamion> anyway, gotta go, night all
[10:20] <T-Bone> see ya
[10:20] <mdz> in large part, the viability of a port will be determined by the willingness of the community to develop it
[10:20] <mdz> just as with other open source projects
[10:20] <T-Bone> sure
[10:21] <mdz> Kamion: night
[10:21] <T-Bone> the fact is that it looks like ia64 is more a 'market community' than a 'developers community', if i may say so
[10:21] <lamont_r> T-Bone: for the most part, canonical employees don't have access to the machines
[10:22] <lamont_r> for example, I'm the only one with logins on the buildd's. (well, modulo elmo-the-admin)
[10:22] <T-Bone> lamont_r: heh. So what are these machines for?
[10:22] <lamont_r> T-Bone: they're for building bits
[10:22] <dredg> so wht happens if both you and elmo get hit by busses?
[10:22] <mdz> they build packages.
[10:23] <lamont_r> dredg: then we get repalced
[10:23] <mdz> dredg: this is why we keep them in separate countries :-)
[10:23] <dredg> mdz: cunning :)
[10:23] <mdz> it would require a very large bus
[10:23] <lamont_r> dredg: I already got hit by one large truck. that's enough
[10:23] <mdz> or a far-reaching conspirace of buses
[10:23] <lamont_r> the truck that hit me outweighed my full-size bronco by 10x
[10:24] <dredg> eep
[10:24] <lamont_r> mdz: you don't subscribe to the one-bus theory, eh?
[10:24] <dredg> well, i did specify busses
[10:24] <lamont_r> dredg: it was, um, an experience.  and I don't care to repeat it
[10:24] <T-Bone> lamont_r: how many machines does it take to 'build bits'? Or else, what kind of bits are you building? :}
[10:24] <lamont_r> there are 3 for redundancy
[10:24] <T-Bone> err
[10:24] <lamont_r> which is good for times when elmo is rebuilding the datacenter :-)
[10:25] <lamont_r> (right now I have 2 ia64 buildds...)
[10:25] <T-Bone> we're talking about redundancy for a yet unsupported arch? :}
[10:25] <T-Bone> ain't that backwards? :)
[10:25] <dredg> need any more admins? :)
[10:26] <elmo> t-bone: 3 buildds is our standard config
[10:27] <elmo> and non-$$$$ ia64 machines are not fast, 3 isn't excessive
[10:27] <elmo> (heck, the non-fast machines are $$$$, the fast ones are $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)
[10:27] <ogra> heh
[10:27] <lamont_r> T-Bone: near as I can figure, mark was given to understand that there was a community out there, and that if we built it they would come.
[10:27] <lamont_r> in that respect, ia64 is going at it completely backwards
[10:27] <T-Bone> elmo: how's Debian ia64 buildd doing? :}
[10:28] <lamont_r> T-Bone: I don't think debian has purchased a single ia64 machine
[10:29] <elmo> T-Bone: the Debian ia64 buildd is a) one of 3 ia64 d.o machines, b) faster than ours, c) has less to do than ours
[10:29] <lamont_r> hell - _I_ have better ia64 machines at home than the data center has
[10:29] <T-Bone> elmo: less to do?
[10:29] <lamont_r> elmo: d) donated hardware
[10:29] <elmo> lamont_r: well, that's a prerequiste for "d.o machine",but yeah
[10:30] <lamont_r> elmo: yeah
[10:30] <T-Bone> anyway. I'm not making up the community. You (ex-)Debian folks know how it goes with Debian ia64 better than I do, I suppose?
[10:30] <elmo> T-Bone: debian doesn't do daily installer builds, debian doesn't do live cd builds, debian doesn't have all our uploads, we have (modulo freezes) almost all of Debian's uploads
[10:30] <ogra> lamont_r: wow, other ppl need 9 months for only one
[10:30] <lamont_r> ogra: yeah, I know I'm good.
[10:30] <T-Bone> elmo: fair enough
[10:30] <lamont_r> :-)
[10:30] <ogra> heh
[10:31] <elmo> T-Bone: debian doesn't do random crack like "rebuild the archive to test it builds" or "build with gcc $v+1", etc.
[10:31] <ogra> lamont_r: we all know that ;)
[10:31] <lamont_r> elmo: speaking of which.... We really need to do that before preview
[10:32] <T-Bone> in the end, what do you guys suggest?
[10:32] <T-Bone> am I to continue that work as a loner?
[10:32] <T-Bone> with no forseable release coming on the way?
[10:32] <elmo> lamont: dude, I'm in the data centre on a friday night, I'm going to be here until the transport goes away.  I'm doing what I can
[10:32] <mdz> T-Bone: as i have said from the beginning, the port needs a lead to take responsibility for getting it into shape
[10:32] <mdz> T-Bone: no one said that you need to be that person, but someone does
[10:33] <lamont_r> elmo: I know - I was just giving you ammo for help with prioritization... :-)
[10:33] <mdz> we cannot "release first, find support resources later"
[10:33] <mdz> if no one cares enough about the port to lead it, then that is a strong indicator that it may not be viable as an official port
[10:34] <T-Bone> mdz: still, there's one thing I fail to understand: in your scheme, what happens if the community decides to drop support?
[10:34] <mdz> T-Bone: if no one is willing to support it, then obviously it would need to be dropped
[10:35] <T-Bone> ok
[10:35] <T-Bone> well, as I see it, there's certainly a market place for a rock solid ia64 linux distribution
[10:35] <T-Bone> now,
[10:36] <elmo> Kamion: is there a daily for i386 with the 'server' stuff fixed, by any chance?
[10:36] <T-Bone> one would have to bear in mind that the ia64 market is rather specific (a niche market, most likely), and that its users are also specific (universities, computing farms, massive calculations etc),
[10:37] <T-Bone> now, if neither the manufacturers of the hardware, nor the makers of the distribution, nor the community at large are willing to take the bet and get involved,
[10:37] <T-Bone> well, everything is rather pointless...
[10:38] <mdz> the current 'makers of the distribution" have too much work to do already.  of course, there is always a place for someone new to become an Ubuntu maintainer and lead a new port
[10:38] <mdz> but in this case, no one is willing
[10:39] <T-Bone> i don't have much insight in the debian ia64 community, but I wonder who's putting up there, and why they aren't interested in Ubuntu...
[10:40] <mdz> interest in Debian does not automatically imply interest in Ubuntu
[10:40] <mdz> perhaps they are happy working on Debian/ia64
[10:43] <T-Bone> mdz: to state things a bit clearly, it boils down to "get the users involved or get the manufacturers to pay people to get involved", as I see it?
[10:46] <EvaSDK> 'lo guys
[10:46] <Gagatan> you're a development kit?
[10:46] <EvaSDK> maybe :)
[10:46] <Gagatan> ;)
[10:46] <Gagatan> evolve with age perhaps.. like a good bottle of vintage port ;)
[10:48] <T-Bone> mdz: anyway, if you haven't already, it'd probably be a good thing that you get in touch with Thierry at some point...
[10:53] <mdz> T-Bone: I have sent email on several occasions, with no response
[10:53] <T-Bone> mdz: at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>?
[10:53] <mdz> T-Bone: is there something in particular I should speak with him about?
[10:54] <T-Bone> mdz: well, he's supposedly the team leader you're looking for?
[10:54] <mdz> I will check which address I used
[10:54] <mdz> T Simonnet<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[10:54] <T-Bone> strange
[10:55] <mdz> I emailed 30th Nov asking about the status of various ia64 bugs
[10:55] <mdz> I then emailed 24th Dec to follow up
[10:55] <mdz> because all of the same bugs were still present
[10:55] <T-Bone> mdz: may i suggest that you mail him again stating what are your expectations WRT team leading?
[10:56] <mdz> On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:49:19AM -0800, T Simonnet wrote:
[10:56] <mdz> > I'm ok with your proposal and would be glad to handle the IA64 port.
[10:56] <mdz> (I told him what my expectations were, and he said that he would take on the role)
[10:57] <T-Bone> then if you think he's not living up to these expectations, maybe it's time to tell him directly
[10:57] <jordi> Who is T Simonnet?
[10:57] <T-Bone> i don't particularly like the idea of playing the 'man-in-the-middle'
[10:58] <T-Bone> jordi: ia64 team leader
[10:58] <mdz> T-Bone: I thought I was clear.  all of this happened over two months ago
[10:58] <mdz> I did email him with my expectations, he did say that he would accept the role, I did email saying that my expectations were not met
[10:58] <T-Bone> mdz: yeah, but if you don't have news in two months, maybe it's time to ring a bell? Or else what, are we waiting for the situation to rot?
[10:58] <mdz> it was at that point that the ia64 port entered its current situations
[10:59] <mdz> ia64 is not one of my priorities; I cannot be responsible for reminding the port leader of his responsibilities
[10:59] <Simira> mdz: isn't Tollef handling the AMD64 part?
[10:59] <Simira> port
[10:59] <mdz> that is the idea of having a port leader, for them to keep track of issues and make sure that progress is made
[10:59] <mdz> Simira: yes.  ia64 is a different port
[10:59] <Simira> oh, ok
[11:00] <HcE> Simira: ia64 is a totally different instruction set than x86-64
[11:00] <T-Bone> mdz: your responsibilities doesn't involved keeping an eye on team leaders? They're supposed to auto-watch themselves? So basically if one leader fails at his task, nobody takes action?
[11:00] <HcE> ia64 is a pure 64-bit processor
[11:00] <mdz> amd64 is a good example of how this _should_ work
[11:00] <Simira> hey, I'm just a clueless girl, you know. Never mind me sticking my nose into everything.
[11:00] <Simira> :p
[11:01] <HcE> T-Bone: correct with beer ;)
[11:01] <sabdfl> T-Bone: mdz sets goals and strategy for the distro, the team either keeps up or their work doesn't make the cut
[11:01] <T-Bone> hi sabdfl
[11:01] <mdz> T-Bone: I'm responsible for tracking the release goals; ia64 was not made a release goal because there was no one to lead the port
[11:01] <sabdfl> hi all
[11:02] <T-Bone> mdz: but maybe you should have complained about that on the mailing lists?
[11:02] <T-Bone> because why would someone else stands up if noone's aware of the problem?
[11:02] <tseng> T-Bone: if no one was aware, doesnt that sort of prove a point?
[11:02] <dredg> T-Bone: so what's stopping you or someone else raising the same point on the mailing lists?
[11:02] <tseng> that no one is taking any intiative to care for the port
[11:03] <mdz> T-Bone: I truly appreciate the work that you have done on ia64, but I simply don't have the bandwidth to drive it in addition to my other work
[11:03] <T-Bone> dredg: maybe because there's some kind of hierarchical relationship between me and the team leader (and not only in the community)?
[11:03] <mdz> T-Bone: that includes searching for a new team leader
[11:03] <T-Bone> mdz: heh. Glad to learn that at least I did something useful :}
[11:04] <sabdfl> so what's the status on ia64?
[11:04] <T-Bone> s/useful/valuable/ - The usefulness remains to be proven
[11:04] <dredg> T-Bone: sorry, i'm not trying to step on toes or pick an argument, i was merely making a suggestion.
[11:05] <T-Bone> sabdfl: well, kamion and I seem to thikn that, put aside the openoffice and firefox bugs, the port is in rather good shape
[11:05] <sabdfl> ok
[11:05] <mdz> it seems to be installable now, and the live CD recently became functional
[11:05] <T-Bone> the openoffice issue is a matter of recompiling a package
[11:05] <sabdfl> those are both good news
[11:05] <sabdfl> is oo.o2 better?
[11:05] <T-Bone> the firefox one just came out last week and seem a bit trickier
[11:07] <mdz> my opinion is that ia64 could probably be made ready for hoary if someone with the necessary skills were able to devote a significant chunk of time per week to it
[11:07] <T-Bone> oo.o2 isn't available yet on ia64, afaict
[11:07] <mdz> as Tollef did for Warty/amd64
[11:07] <T-Bone> mdz: that would certainly speed up things by several orders of magnitude
[11:08] <mdz> but it is by no means a sure thing
[11:08] <mdz> preview is less than three weeks away, and ia64 is still significantly behind the big three architectures
[11:08] <T-Bone> i do not agree on the "significantly' there
[11:08] <T-Bone> but it's only my opinion
[11:09] <sabdfl> T-Bone: can you quantify that - do we have a per-architecture ftbfs list?
[11:09] <T-Bone> afaict, everything works in Ubuntu-desktop except oo.o and firefox
[11:10] <mdz> there are bugs in bugzilla for FTBFS on ia64
[11:10] <T-Bone> sabdfl: the only ftbfs i'm aware for ia64 is libbonobo, and that's a bug existing in debian as well
[11:10] <mdz> there are uninstallable packages on ia64; language-support-en was uninstallable the last time I looked, but that may have changed
[11:10] <mdz> that would have been a side effect of oo.o being completely missing
[11:11] <T-Bone> it is
[11:11] <seb128> T-Bone: hum ?
[11:12] <seb128> T-Bone: libbonobo is fine in debian afaik
[11:12] <mdz> T-Bone: oo.o and firefox are two of the cornerstones of ubuntu-desktop :-)
[11:13] <elmo> ia64 has 4 main packages in failed, 4 in building
[11:13] <T-Bone> seb128: maybe i'm mistaking. You'd have to ask lamont-away about that
[11:13] <seb128> elmo: libbonobo sync please
[11:13] <elmo> one in dep-wait
[11:13] <seb128> I've fixed the FTBFS in deb
[11:13] <seb128> we just need to sync
[11:14] <elmo> seb128: done
[11:14] <seb128> thanks
[11:14] <T-Bone> mdz: yeah i know, hence the efforts on them. oo.o should be trivial. Firefox looks a lot more tricky
[11:14] <mdz> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~cjwatson/testing/hoary_outdate.txt says 7 binaries are out of date, including libbonobo
[11:14] <seb128> T-Bone: this one is fixed now :p
[11:14] <T-Bone> seb128: heh thanks :)
[11:14] <mdz> T-Bone: I think it is overly optimistic to say that it is trivial
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: ooffice works with ia32 libs
[11:15] <mdz> it is unlikely that anyone has started oo.o even once on ubuntu/ia64
[11:15] <mdz> T-Bone: you have tested it?
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: said otherwise: if you install ia32-libs and use the x86 installer it works
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: i'm doing that (had to dl the big installer)
[11:15] <mdz> T-Bone: what installer?
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: that's what i've been told by debian folks
[11:15] <mdz> the one from upstream?
[11:15] <T-Bone> mdz: the official one
[11:15] <T-Bone> yeah
[11:16] <mdz> that is not the same thing as the Ubuntu package working
[11:16] <T-Bone> mdz: sure. At least it means no need for code tweaking in oo.o
[11:16] <T-Bone> and it means it can be done
[11:16] <mdz> it has not even been built yet; in theory it could work, but the work has not even begun, much less testing
[11:17] <T-Bone> mdz: the work has begun. See my questions about lib32gcc1 earlier today
[11:17] <T-Bone> i need help in the ia32-libs package, but I'm trying to put up on my own
[11:18] <mdz> Mithrandir worked with that package; he may be able to help you
[11:18] <T-Bone> that'd be cool
[11:19] <mdz> but the fact that you need help means that it is not trivial
[11:19] <T-Bone> no
[11:19] <T-Bone> it means the package isn't trivial (the ia32-libs one)
[11:19] <T-Bone> i have a grasp of what needs to be done. I don't know how to do it. That's fairly different :}
[11:20] <mdz> if you don't know how to do it, it isn't trivial, by definition
[11:20] <T-Bone> basically we just want ia32-libs to build a lib32gcc1 package.
[11:20] <T-Bone> mdz: it can be trivial for somebody with knowledge in the mechanics of that package
[11:21] <T-Bone> as it is trivial for me to write a new basic kernel driver, but it's not for everyone else :}
[11:22] <mdz> T-Bone: I do not think that word means what you think it means
[11:23] <Simira> mdz: hm, does this mean I shouldn't upgrade hoary in a little while, when it still works?
[11:24] <mdz> Simira: hopefully that answers your question :-)
[11:24] <Simira> :p
[11:24] <Simira> I've no idea of what kernel I have, but I'll check it tomorrow
[11:24] <T-Bone> mdz: what i mean is that it *should hopefully* be a matter of adding the proper parameters to a package (ia32-libs) and put tarballs wherever needed, to get oo.o working on ia64. That's what I call trivial, by comparing to "fixing the firefox segfault" which is everything but simple and requires much more work.
[11:26] <mdz>   trivial adj. 1. Too simple to bother detailing. 2. Not worth the
[11:26] <mdz>      speaker's time. 3. Complex, but solvable by methods so well known that
[11:26] <mdz>      anyone not utterly {cretinous} would have thought of them already. 4.
[11:26] <mdz>      Any problem one has already solved
[11:26] <T-Bone> :/
[11:27] <T-Bone> it's my bad for having been used to relativise triviality of problems
[11:27] <mdz> I'm sorry, but I need to work on some other things now
[11:28] <mdz> if you would like to continue the discussion about ia64, I think it would be best to do it on ubuntu-devel where others can participate
[11:29] <T-Bone> i've said pretty much everything i had to say
[11:29] <T-Bone> and I won't post on u-devel claiming that Thierry isn't doing his work
[11:29] <T-Bone> i just can't do that.
[11:31] <elmo> anyone familiar with the installer over serial console?
[11:32] <elmo> I'm just wondering if there's anyway to break out to menu, or otherwise get a shell
[11:33] <T-Bone> 'get back' should bring you to menu iirc
[11:33] <T-Bone> at least it did last time i checked that
[11:33] <elmo> yeah, I'm stuck in a loop which doesn't have that
[11:33] <T-Bone> ouch
[11:33] <sabdfl> T-Bone: rather than pointing fingers, it would be great to summarise the work to be done
[11:33] <elmo> oh, no, I'm not, I just needed to do it a ocuple of times - thanks
[11:34] <T-Bone> elmo: heh :)
[11:34] <sabdfl> i read that as "an occult of times"
[11:34] <sabdfl> ths porting business is serious... voodoo.
[11:34] <aj> "I'm caught in a loop... I can't break out... Because I'm installing Ubuntu, baby" ?
[11:34] <sabdfl> schweet jaysus...
[11:35] <T-Bone> sabdfl: i can do that, but I can only speak about my point of view. To me it seems that the only issues left are oo.o and firefox. mdz seems to think otherwise...
[11:35] <sabdfl> "we can't go on together, with pernicious lines"
[11:36] <mdz> I think that you haven't done a comprehensive investigation of the issues yet
[11:36] <sabdfl> mdz: did i miss you laying out your concerns?
[11:36] <aj> "and we can't run our system... with pernicious lines"
[11:36] <T-Bone> i guess i'll mail a ia64 status as lamont did for hppa
[11:36] <mdz> T-Bone: that would be good
[11:37] <sabdfl> aj: how about some duelling elvis down under?
[11:37] <mdz> sabdfl: I stopped paying attention to it in December when T Simonnet vanished.  Since then I have closed/deprioritized ia64-specific bugs, and excluded it from my radar
[11:37] <T-Bone> mdz: certainly. Because: 1) i don't know how to perform such an investigation; 2) i don't have time for it and maybe 3) I don't have an incentive to do it :>
[11:37] <aj> "i saw an old friend i know; whose system's running slow; is it because of pernicioun in the lines?"
[11:38] <mdz> sabdfl: honestly, the fact that it has no leadership eclipses the technical issues
[11:38] <T-Bone> mdz: that's something only you can tell on a mailing-list, imho
[11:39] <T-Bone> that's a message that has to come from Canonical, who's the "authority" in such matters...
[11:39] <mdz> that is a misconception
[11:39] <ogra> T-Bone: canonical isnt ubuntu
[11:39] <ogra> T-Bone: the community is ubuntu
[11:40] <ogra> T-Bone: canonical only backs it
[11:41] <T-Bone> who decides what has the "supported" stamp?
[11:41] <T-Bone> that person should be the one complaining why it won't be giving such stamp to ia64
[11:41] <sabdfl> T-Bone: mdz
[11:41] <T-Bone> and that person is not me
[11:41] <T-Bone> end of reasonning
[11:42] <mdz> I don't understand your position.  You still seem to be saying that ia64 should be blessed first, then fixed
[11:42] <tseng> sorry to jump into this, but you seem to be the one most miffed about it
[11:42] <T-Bone> sabdfl: so i'm rephrasing my previous sentence: "that's a message that has to come from mdz"
[11:42] <mdz> that is exactly the opposite of how the other ports work
[11:42] <T-Bone> mdz: not at all. What I'm saying is that you're noticing a lack of leadership, and I'm just asking you to *state* it on the m-l
[11:42] <T-Bone> (if you don't want to state it to Thierry directly)
[11:43] <ogra> T-Bone: who should support it ? if it has this stamp if there is no team to do so
[11:43] <mdz> T-Bone: I already told you that I _did_ state this to Thierry directly
[11:43] <T-Bone> I'm saying that I can't be the one making such a claim, and one of the reasons i can't do that is that I have *no authority* to do so, while *you* have
[11:43] <T-Bone> mdz: two months ago. Maybe it's time to let the community know about that?
[11:44] <tseng> why cant anyone on the team acknowledge a lack a leadership?
[11:44] <Simira> do one need authority to request work on a part of Ubuntu?
[11:44] <mdz> T-Bone: you, as someone working on the ia64 port, surely know first-hand whether the port leader is effective
[11:44] <T-Bone> tseng: maybe because all people involved in the (very small at that point) team have some external relationships with the leader?
[11:44] <T-Bone> tseng: you know, that human factor...
[11:45] <tseng> oh, so its a personal issue?
[11:45] <mdz> T-Bone: at the time that the discussion was happening in November/December, you were unavailable, and now you have reappeared and are demanding an official ia64 port
[11:45] <T-Bone> mdz: for christ sake, can't you understand?
[11:45] <tseng> you hadnt mentioned that before that I've seen
[11:45] <T-Bone> mdz: thierry is 40, i'm 24. That's a point. I owe him everything I know about quite a lot of things. I can't shoot him back
[11:45] <T-Bone> is that clear enough?
[11:46] <sabdfl> aj: "is your memory tight, are they blinken, de lights, are you sorry... we failed... to port?"
[11:46] <sabdfl> guys, calm down
[11:46] <T-Bone> mdz: i'm not demanding anything, please stop making me say things I don't
[11:46] <sabdfl> T-Bone: is thierry at his desk these days?
[11:46] <T-Bone> i'm demanding for an overview
[11:46] <sabdfl> T-Bone: do you think you have the skills to get the final bits done, if you had an incentive?
[11:46] <T-Bone> sabdfl: from 8 to 16 CET he should be yes
[11:47] <sabdfl> T-Bone: is he a full time teacher?
[11:47] <T-Bone> sabdfl: not within a reasonable timeframe if i have to acquire some extranous knowledge i don't have off-hand
[11:48] <sabdfl> i suspect the issue is that Thierry was not expecting to be as hands-on as our other porting leads have been
[11:48] <sabdfl> T-Bone: do you know someone with the necessary skills?
[11:48] <T-Bone> sabdfl: he's not a teacher. He should be reachable from 8 to 11:30 and then from 12 to 16, I suspect
[11:48] <mdz> sabdfl: I was very clear about my expectations in email, and he acknowledged them
[11:48] <mdz> #1 on the list was to respond to ia64 bugs
[11:49] <mdz> and as far as I can tell, no one other than lamont and I have responded to a single such bug
[11:49] <T-Bone> sabdfl: the oo.o issue is a packaging one Mithrandir seems to know about. The firefox bug I could probably try to track down, but then it's not skills again, it's a matter of time
[11:50] <sabdfl> firefox-on-64-bit is not trivial
[11:50] <sabdfl> it's hard code
[11:50] <T-Bone> true
[11:50] <sabdfl> is everything else building fine?
[11:50] <T-Bone> sabdfl: it seems so. Lamont wasn't complaining about any particular FTBFS
[11:50] <T-Bone> (except the libbonobo seb128 just fixed)
[11:51] <T-Bone> sabdfl: i'm working on ubuntu at nights from 19 to 01 and on weekends from friday noon to sunday night almost fulltime (except when I take a break with my GF, who has proved to be rather comprehensive lately :})
[11:52] <T-Bone> still, i'm not very inclined to screw up all my free time just for the fun of it :->
[11:52] <sabdfl> T-Bone: is there anything you can think that i can do to help ia64 happen?
[11:54] <T-Bone> sabdfl: well, any progress on the cloning machine? :)
[11:54] <sabdfl> waht what what?
[11:54] <sabdfl> aj... shtoom?
[11:55] <T-Bone> sabdfl: afaict (but it's always difficult to predict how long a bug will take to be fixed),
[11:55] <T-Bone> oo.o might be fixed by the end of this week end if i can get some input from mithrandir in that time frame.
[11:56] <T-Bone> fixed == packaged/built/tested/uploaded (assuming no undercover bug)
[11:56] <sabdfl> Mithrandir: if oo.o2 can be made to build on amd64, it should build nicely on ia64 too, right?
[11:56] <T-Bone> the firefox issue, i cna't tell yet
[11:56] <sabdfl> firefox is just not designed for 64bit architectures
[11:56] <ogra> T-Bone: Mithrandir is at FOSDEM this weekend.....
[11:56] <sabdfl> it's a deep deep problem apparently
[11:56] <T-Bone> sabdfl: i think so. How would you cope with that?
[11:57] <T-Bone> sabdfl: mozilla works fine OTOH
[11:57] <sabdfl> oh...
[11:57] <sabdfl> seriously/
[11:57] <sabdfl> ?
[11:57] <T-Bone> seriously
[11:57] <sabdfl> maybe i'm mistaken then
[11:57] <T-Bone> epiphany seems to as well
[11:57] <T-Bone> afaict, firefox was working fairly well until last week
[11:57] <jordi> sabdfl: I'm sorry I haven't been able to reply to your request yet. It's hard to get an OK from the People At The Top
[11:57] <Simira> ogra: yes, please tell him I miss him already, when you see him :)
[11:58] <jordi> sabdfl: dunno if you spoke to carlos. I will know on Monday morning
[11:58] <ogra> Simira: i'll do :)
[11:59] <sabdfl> jordi: that's ok, i really appreciate your being willing to trek to london to help us make rosetta rock
[11:59] <AndyR> are many of you going to fosdem?
[11:59] <T-Bone> sabdfl: given i'm single-threaded so to speak, I can focus on one problem at a time.  I'd be glad.
[11:59] <T-Bone> it should be
[11:59] <jordi> And now, it's pub time.
[11:59] <sabdfl> T-Bone: go for firefox, if it's a recent regression
[11:59] <jordi> laters
[11:59] <T-Bone> comparing between working and non working releases should help
[12:00] <sabdfl> cheers jordi
[12:00] <AndyR> quite a few from my local LUG going
[12:00] <T-Bone> sabdfl: will do. Luckily I hadn't planned to sleep tonight :}


[14:01] <ychaouche> Hello #bzr
[14:02] <ychaouche> I have checkouted a branch from my machine to a distant machine. My machine had the IP <IP_ADDRESS>.
[14:02] <ychaouche> Then I changed the IP of my machine to <IP_ADDRESS>, and now I can no longer commit from the distant machine, probably because it still keeps the old IP in its config.
[14:03] <ychaouche> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/ychaouche/956d225727817d82ea3f/raw/f7c5e852a2533030b4c0a6bb52e8bd93ab0b3460/gistfile1.txt
[14:07] <ychaouche> I can't even do a switch now : I tried a bzr switch but it also times out.I
[14:07] <ychaouche> oops, wrong paste : https://gist.githubusercontent.com/ychaouche/b723dc782d28f795795b/raw/119c324711ede412ce1895f3b640862b899ac5fc/gistfile1.txt
[14:14] <ychaouche> Had to checkout to another directory, manually copy modified files to that directory, commit.
[14:14] <ychaouche> If there's a shortcut for this I think I would benefit from it.


 @tsimonq2 qt6 is src:NEW but that doesnt mean the other apps that exist are qt6.  Unless you're forking them all as NEW *that* is an FFe still
 so all that work to move apps to qt6 is a ton of FFes for inclusion
 or are you just trying to gey src:qt6 in
 get*  ffs i cant type today
 src:qt6 unless you know how to duplicate a binary package with a single source and a patch on the second binary without a) breaking policy b) pissing off mapreri ;) (re @teward001: or are you just trying to gey src:qt6 in)