[01:17] <snap-l> eveninig
[01:20] <rick_h> party
[01:20] <rick_h> snap-l: widox Blazeix just a heads up. I'll be late to CHC this week.  I've been kicking the idea around for a bi
[13:33] <snap-l> bit, even
[13:33] <brousch> I thought it was wolfger that was firewalled into oblivion
[13:33] <snap-l> Trying to come up with a good name for it
[13:34] <snap-l> And yeah, it was Wolfger that was having trouble scaling the great firewall of Chrysler.
[13:34] <rick_h> oh doh
[13:34] <rick_h> sorry, case of the monday's I swear
[13:34] <brousch> Wow, WTF it is dark as night outside right now
[13:35] <ColonelPanic001> snap-l++;
[13:35] <rick_h> not here
[13:35] <rick_h> dark that is
[13:35] <snap-l> Yesterday we were leaving Chipotle on Woodward, and it was pouring
[13:36] <snap-l> headed down 14 mile, and it was pouring
[13:36] <snap-l> stopped in the parking lot at Caribou, and it was pouring
[13:36] <snap-l> got home, and it was absolutely bone dry
[13:36] <rick_h> yea, we got a little rain, not a ton
[13:36] <rick_h> but nice to sit on the porch and hack kind of rain
[13:37] <snap-l> I swear, ever since JoDee got that rain gauge, we've missed more storms than anything
[13:37] <rick_h> put a little cool into things
[13:37] <rick_h> lol
[13:37] <snap-l> "Oh sit, she's recording this.   Sometimes they do
[13:43] <snap-l> I'd be very surprised if this case isn't bounced higher than a superball out of the courtroom
[13:43] <snap-l> Reminds me of those bullshit video game lawsuits.
[13:44] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(activist)
[14:12] <rick_h> ugh, javascript is going to be getting more ugly isn't it...http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:existential_operator
[14:12] <rick_h> this and the => function bit.../me goes to look at dart again
[14:12] <snap-l> Going?
[14:13] <snap-l> Dude, it was miles down the road to ugly
[14:13] <snap-l> It was just at the rest stop
[14:13] <rick_h> well it's not that bad from something like PHP where you're used to the C syntax/etc
[14:20] <snap-l> Yeah, but if you come from Ruby, it'll be a brain-warp
[14:20] <rick_h> well these seem like ruby-isms
[14:21] <rick_h> python would do a default using a method
[14:21] <rick_h> something.get('key', 'default')
[14:21] <rick_h> this is some sort of .? magic crap
[14:21]  * snap-l awaits the Javascript: The Good Parts update that says "Don't use this"
[14:48] <jrwren> rick_h: using the font for your icons instead of images?  cool.
[14:48] <rick_h> jrwren: yea, really like the way that works out for color/size/etc flexibility vs sprites
[14:49] <snap-l> plus it makes retina displays work flawlessly. ;)
[14:49] <rick_h> hah
[14:52] <jrwren> wow, great point.
[15:02] <rick_h> love gigabit, sure let me rsync that 30GB for you wheee
[15:02] <_stink_> rick_h: just posted a question in #yui, thought i'd ping you separately in case you have a suggestion
[15:04] <rick_h> _stink_: looking
[15:04] <_stink_> thanks.
[15:05] <brousch> Suggestion: use jquery instead
[15:05] <rick_h> jrwren: ty sir https://github.com/mitechie/Bookie/commit/bdfa93380197454f89d0f390fbd77c293f30f80f
[15:07] <rick_h> _stink_: do you have code? How are you creating the button?what existing html/etc?
[15:07] <_stink_> rick_h: ofc.  i'll pastebin in #yui
[15:27] <rick_h_> _stink_: sorry there.
[15:27] <rick_h_> _stink_: can you link me again?
[15:27] <snap-l> Special Weather Statement. Looks like we're going to ger some storms.
[15:28] <rick_h_> yay!
[15:28] <snap-l> http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=clarkston%2C+mi
[15:28] <_stink_> rick_h_: http://pastebin.com/u96f4Z1A
[15:28] <_stink_> np
[15:28] <rick_h_> on swim  day
[15:28] <snap-l> http://www.wunderground.com/US/MI/069.html#SPE
[15:29] <brousch> You're welcome
[15:29] <snap-l> brousch: Apparently that's the stuff that blew by you. ;)
[15:37] <rick_h_> dammit, forgot my headphones at the coffee shop...ugh
[15:37] <rick_h_> man monday is biting hard today
[15:39] <brousch> Some has a case of the mondays?
[15:39] <rick_h_> just one of those mondays where everything seems to just not work out right
[15:40] <snap-l> ugh
[15:41] <rick_h_> and system lockup makes me unhappy
[15:44] <snap-l> Ugh.
[16:08] <rick_h_> bwuhahaha, pypi mirror on the laptop complete and working. except setup.py doesn't listen to it because it's not pip :(
[16:10] <brousch> can you change your hosts file to make localhost pypi?
[16:10] <rick_h_> ah, good point I guess
[16:11] <brousch> Toss it in a VM you can move around
[16:11] <brousch> How big is it?
[16:11] <rick_h_> right now it's a project with a make file. Sets up nginx, etc
[16:11] <rick_h_> 30GB
[16:11] <brousch> Portable PyPi would be a cool project
[16:12] <brousch> Update it once a day
[16:13] <brousch> Convert pypi into a ginormous git repo and everyone can clone their own, push and pull
[16:13] <brousch> make it so
[16:13] <rick_h_> yea, have it set to update 5:30am so should be up to date each morning
[16:14] <brousch> mypypi!
[16:14] <rick_h_> mypi is what I have it aliased as :)
[16:15] <brousch> Could it be made into an easy VM?
[16:15] <rick_h_> probably
[16:15] <rick_h_> sec, pushing up the bootstrap stuff to github
[16:15] <brousch> Is it worth it?
[16:16] <rick_h_> meh, we'll find out. I tried having it on hte network, but had a hard time keeping that system running. We'll see if having it local works out
[16:16] <snap-l> brousch: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9058804/download.jpg
[16:16] <rick_h_> https://github.com/mitechie/mypi
[16:18] <brousch> woohoo!
[16:25] <rick_h_> oh cool, got it working for setup.py develop as well
[16:26] <greg-g> rick_h_: working with rye in #ubuntuone on recovering some lost files
[16:26] <greg-g> s/some/the/
[16:26] <rick_h_> greg-g: good luck!
[16:26] <greg-g> thanks
[16:26] <greg-g> this was in a PM, but it doesn't seem secret, if it is, my bad, but, this is what is happening:
[16:26] <greg-g> 12:24 <      rye> i will recover last 10000 deleted files (no datetime interval), you will start seeing new files  in "Recovered" folder in Ubuntu One volume
[16:26] <rick_h_> oh, very cool
[16:34] <jrwren> i just went with eggproxy. I don't want to mirror all of pypi
[16:35] <rick_h_> yea, I figured wtf go for it all. Last thing I need is to get blocked by a new packages I want to add but pypi down/network offline
[16:35] <rick_h_> putting another 120gb drive in here today so that'll be pypi/virtualbox space
[16:37] <greg-g> rick_h_: so yeah, you're doing what? the x230 can have two harddrives?
[16:37] <rick_h_> greg-g: yea, 220 can as well
[16:37] <greg-g> oh reeeaaaalllly?
[16:37] <greg-g> hmmmmm
[16:38] <rick_h_> they have a msata port under the keyboard
[16:38] <rick_h_> msata ssd's exist
[16:38] <rick_h_> so have a 240gb intel in the main disk bay, but 120gb msata drive showing up today
[16:38] <rick_h_> so some assembly required
[16:38] <rick_h_> as long as you're not using that port for wwam module (cellular access)
[16:38] <rick_h_> wwan that is
[16:39] <jrwren> i've never even heard of msata.
[16:39] <jrwren> isn't wwam port micropci?
[16:39] <greg-g> it's like sata, but smaller (says the first hit on ddg)
[16:39] <jrwren> err, minipci or minipci express?
[16:40] <greg-g> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#mSATA
[16:40] <greg-g> that *is* tiny
[16:40] <rick_h_> and htinking of getting one of these for backup http://www.amazon.com/Micro-SATA-Cables-MSATA-ADPT-Adapter/dp/B004YKJ5TE/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1340037601&sr=8-14&keywords=msata+ssd
[16:40] <jrwren> yeah, its the same pinout as minipcie
[16:40] <rick_h_> greg-g: so there's your raid mirror for you
[16:40] <jrwren> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#mSATA
[16:40] <brousch> greg-g: Very cool that they're recovering for you
[16:41] <rick_h_> yea, seems common for guys to do msata for main drive nad keep the slower 7200rpm in the laptop for mass storage
[16:41] <greg-g> hmmmm
[16:42] <brousch> That's cool. Looks kind of like the SSD in the EEEPc 901
[16:42] <rick_h_> well all these ultrabooks are using these things I guess vs real drives
[16:43] <rick_h_> so heading this route, ram-like ssd
[16:43] <brousch> yeah, well the legacy shapes are due to physical constraints and connections of spinning HDs
[16:44] <rick_h_> yea
[16:47] <snap-l> I look forward to the hair-thin connectors on devices
[16:48] <rick_h_> *snap*
[16:49] <snap-l> Seriously, they keep making these damn things smaller. Pretty soon the adapters will be larger than the devices.
[16:49] <brousch> that's why you let apple install them and solder them to the board!
[16:49] <snap-l> brousch: Exactly
[16:49] <snap-l> upgrading is for qualified technicians only
[16:50] <brousch> MicroSD is about as tiny as I can handle
[16:50] <rick_h_> yea, my usb adaptor for that is 4x the size of the card itself
[16:50] <snap-l> Technicians who have spent years shaping micro-sized bonsai trees
[16:50] <brousch> snap-l: AKA children
[16:51] <brousch> I had my son with his tiny 4 year old hands help with something last weekend
[16:52] <TeamXlink> Does anyone have any recommendations for an ISP? I currently am using an AT&T bundle, but I'm now required to purchase my own service. All I need is internet though.
[16:52] <brousch> Comcast
[16:53] <TeamXlink> Really?
[16:53] <rick_h_> TeamXlink: I use uverse just internet and am happy with it
[16:53] <TeamXlink> I want to get at least a one mb upload speed consistantly.
[16:53] <brousch> $50/mo for 6 up 18 down. Yes please
[16:54] <TeamXlink> Wow!
[16:54] <MaskedDriver> +1 for Uverse
[16:54] <rick_h_> brousch: you get 6up?
[16:54]  * rick_h_ is jealous...finally bit the bullet to pay max price to get 3mb up
[16:54] <MaskedDriver> rick_h_: 3 up with Uverse?
[16:55] <MaskedDriver> it's 2.5 last I checked
[16:55] <rick_h_> MaskedDriver: yea, their top tier
[16:55] <MaskedDriver> oh
[16:55] <rick_h_> only .5 below that
[16:55] <rick_h_> 1.5 that is
[16:55] <MaskedDriver> that's a big difference ;)
[16:55] <brousch> Helz yeah
[16:55] <jrwren> i use comcast and I am very happy with it.
[16:56] <MaskedDriver> I don't like how Comcast does business
[16:56] <jrwren> they are leading ipv6 to customers. i support them on this.
[16:56] <TeamXlink> brousch, what package do you get?
[16:56] <jrwren> what do you not like about how comcast does business?
[16:56] <MaskedDriver> they sue everyone lol
[16:56] <jrwren> they do?
[16:56] <jrwren> links please? I've not heard about comcast lawsuit
[16:56] <brousch> TeamXlink: One of the middle tiers
[16:57] <jrwren> and in fact, comcast is preventing mpaa from sueing their customers, another thing I like about comcast
[16:57] <MaskedDriver> http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/22/comcast-sues-sprint/
[16:57] <MaskedDriver> http://www.adweek.com/news/television/comcast-sues-directv-over-nfl-sunday-ticket-ads-133912
[16:57] <brousch> I've been really happy with Comcast at home and work for the last 2 years
[16:57] <MaskedDriver> http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-09-21/british-telecommunications-sued-by-comcast-over-network-patents.html
[16:57] <MaskedDriver> http://www.styleweekly.com/richmond/comcast-sues-city-wants-tax-refund/Content?oid=1550684
[16:58] <MaskedDriver> they also do stuff like this: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/11/comcast-sued-ov/
[16:58] <jrwren> you realize that first link is a counter sue because sprint filed suit against comcast. so comcast is on the defense there.
[16:58] <MaskedDriver> I didn't read it lol
[16:58] <MaskedDriver> I hadn't heard about the Sprint one
[16:58] <jrwren> so you aren't really sure about what you don't like about comcast?
[16:58] <jrwren> or you just want to dislike them?
[16:59] <brousch> I used to hate them
[16:59] <MaskedDriver> I heard about the city one and the british telecom and blocking bittorrent ones
[16:59] <MaskedDriver> blocking bittorrents for the sake of blocking bittorrents is bad
[16:59] <jrwren> your business week link, the BT one comcast is trying to get BT patents invalidated. this is excellent IMO
[16:59] <brousch> I haven't had any trouble with torrents, but then I only torrent Ubuntu CDs on release days
[17:00] <jrwren> yes, I wasn't happy about blocking bittorrent, but they backed off from that.
[17:00] <MaskedDriver> brousch: cause they got sued lol
[17:00] <jrwren> i used to hate them too.
[17:00] <jrwren> they have really turned around their image, IMO
[17:00] <MaskedDriver> they were one of the first with data caps
[17:00] <MaskedDriver> but everyone has one now, so I can't hate them for that anymore
[17:00] <jrwren> your second link they are looking for truth in advertising, again I can support this.
[17:00] <brousch> I have uploaded obscene amounts of stuff and never been warned
[17:01] <brousch> So I have no idea what people are doing to hit caps
[17:01] <MaskedDriver> I think Comcast is 350gb
[17:01] <MaskedDriver> welp
[17:01] <MaskedDriver> not anymore... at least for now
[17:02] <brousch> Maybe they'll get me this month. I just uploaded 381GB of backup files over 3 days
[17:02] <MaskedDriver> looks like they suspended it a couple months ago
[17:02] <jrwren> its 250GB
[17:02] <MaskedDriver> looks like this guy is switchign to Comcast lol
[17:02] <MaskedDriver> used to be 250GB
[17:02] <jrwren> adn they are still watching you can view your usage on their customer portal
[17:02] <MaskedDriver> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/05/comcast-raises-data-cap/
[17:02] <jrwren> I've gone over the 250 quite a few times with zero consequences.
[17:03] <jrwren> yes, the cap is gone, but the 250 monitor watch is still there on their customer portal
[17:03] <MaskedDriver> ah
[17:03] <MaskedDriver> so Xfinity is a gigantic improvement over their last system it looks like
[17:04] <jrwren> xfinity is just a brand, what do you mean "their last system" ?
[17:04] <MaskedDriver> I might have to look in to it
[17:04] <MaskedDriver> my girlfriend has Xfinity, I had her run a speedtest.net
[17:04] <MaskedDriver> she got ping of 11, 24.42 down and 4.27 up
[17:05] <snap-l> http://www.metalinjection.net/around-the-interwebs/real-rock-drummer-for-non-pussy-band-in-la
[17:05] <jrwren> https://www.etrade.wallst.com/v1/stocks/news/search_results.asp?docKey=100-166p4188-1&DMSourceID=COMTEX&Source=PR%20Newswire&docDate=2012-06-14%2020:27:00&headline=Comcast%20Provides%20%24200%2C000%20In%20College%20Scholarships%20To%20180%20California%20High%20School%20Seniors&refSymbols=undefined
[17:05] <jrwren> oh yeah, the speed is great.
[17:06] <jrwren> I get 30/8 from comcast with speedboost to 50/10
[17:06] <jrwren> that speedboost is really nice
[17:06] <jrwren> its not just a gimmick
[17:06] <MaskedDriver> 24.42 does that mean she has the 30 (that was slower than advertised) or 20 (that ended up speeding it up)?
[17:06] <MaskedDriver> she has no idea which package they have lol
[17:07] <brousch> MaskedDriver: They regularly go over the advertised speed
[17:07] <MaskedDriver> so she probably ahs the 20mbps
[17:08] <snap-l> Well, if she is paying for the 20mpbs, then cool
[17:08] <snap-l> if she's paying for the 30mbps, then complain
[17:08] <MaskedDriver> lol yeah
[17:08] <MaskedDriver> she's playing SWTOR right now, so it may have slowed it down too
[17:08] <snap-l> and if she's paying for 25mbps, well, nobody's perfect.
[17:09] <snap-l> And if she's paying for 8mbps... ;)
[17:09] <MaskedDriver> lol
[17:10] <MaskedDriver> looks like xfinity only goes down to 20
[17:10] <MaskedDriver> so if she's paying for 8mbps, she's doing something very wrong
[17:10] <MaskedDriver> most important question about Comcast: it has HBOGo support right?
[17:10] <MaskedDriver> oh nvm they go down to 3mbps
[17:11] <jrwren> if you pay extra for HBO, yes.
[17:11] <MaskedDriver> well yeah
[17:11] <MaskedDriver> my current plan is: basic channels (local and local hd) and HBO lol
[17:11] <MaskedDriver> only stations I ever watch
[17:15] <MaskedDriver> not seeing the price differential though except for slightly faster upload speeds. Uverse's 24mbps down and 3 up is $63 and Comcast's 20 is 62.95
[17:15] <rick_h_> oooh, snap-l sourceforge going out to pasture? https://twitter.com/sourceforge/status/214762408621768704
[17:17] <snap-l> rick_h_: Interesting
[17:17] <snap-l> I wouldn't say it's going out to pasture, but it'll be interesting to see what the Apache Foundation does with it
[17:17] <rick_h_> anyone know, does 3.1gb sound right for a windows7 64bit iso?
[17:18] <rick_h_> snap-l: yea, I mean usually (99% of the time) it's a 'handoff' move
[17:18] <rick_h_> now if ASF runs with it cool, but I've not really seen companies stay in there, maybe I'm missing some examples
[17:19] <snap-l> rick_h_: No, I think you're right.
[17:21] <brousch> rick_h_: Win7 cpmes on DVD, so it sounds about right
[17:21] <MaskedDriver> Win Server 2008 is 3.5gb
[17:21] <MaskedDriver> R2*
[17:21] <rick_h_> brousch: cool thanks, haven't worked with cds in a while so not sure how to make sure I ripped the iso right
[17:22] <brousch> md5
[17:22] <MaskedDriver> don't have a desktop one available to check the size of
[17:23] <brousch> I have Win7 Pro SP1 x64 EN I can check against
[17:23] <rick_h_> naw, this is home, all good though. I'm pretty sure I've got someting to try out later
[17:23] <rick_h_> time to get a vbox windows machine again
[17:23] <snap-l> Good luck
[17:26] <brousch> Win7 isn't so bad. You stick it one of your Linux workspaces and have 9 others for useful programs
[17:27] <jrwren> disclosure: given teh above conversation, I now have an open order for CMCSA shares.
[17:28] <greg-g> cmcsa?
[17:28] <greg-g> comcast, got it
[17:34] <jrwren> rick_h_: my buddy Matt responded to your firefox font SO question.
[17:35] <MaskedDriver> how many shares?
[17:36] <snap-l> I swear sometimes people don't think
[17:36] <MaskedDriver> snap-l: or read
[17:36] <MaskedDriver> what happened?
[17:36] <snap-l> Just got an approval from a customer for a change that they expect to run today
[17:37] <MaskedDriver> lol
[17:37] <snap-l> which, if things went correctly, would have already been winging their way to their destination
[17:37] <snap-l> so, in effect, they were expecting me to make a change without their approval
[17:38] <snap-l> which, had things gone wrong, would have wound up like an albatross against my neck
[17:39] <rick_h_> jrwren: yea, looking into it. Thanks
[17:58] <rick_h_> jrwren: ooh, think I got it, thanks
[17:58] <rick_h_> greg-g: hopefully the site looks better to you as well
[18:00] <rick_h_> jcastro: so my question was my own fault, I want to close it, but give the guy that tried to help me some credit. Some way to do that in SO?
[18:00] <jcastro> link?
[18:01] <rick_h_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11072655/firefox-font-face-fail-with-fontawesome/11085126
[18:03] <greg-g> rick_h_: YAY I have icons again!
[18:03] <brousch> The icons were gone?
[18:03] <rick_h_> greg-g: yea, much prettier now eh? :)
[18:03] <rick_h_> brousch: yea, I broke things in FF it turns out
[18:03] <jcastro> rick_h_: looks like your comment is the answer
[18:03] <greg-g> well, icons being characters from a font
[18:04] <brousch> Ah, FF. Those people deserve what they get!
[18:04] <jcastro> rick_h_: post that as an answer, link to his answer for credit, upvote him, then accept your answer.
[18:04] <rick_h_> jcastro: yea, I was going to answer my own question, but really the whole thing is a bad question and should go away since it was my fault
[18:04] <jcastro> yeah
[18:04] <rick_h_> link to his answer for credit?
[18:04] <jcastro> after X hours you can close it
[18:04] <jcastro> yeah
[18:05] <jcastro> or click flag and post a message to have it removed.
[18:06] <rick_h_> so when you said "link" to his answer how do you do that? Just put a link in my answer to his answer permalink?
[18:08] <rick_h_> ok, cool think it's close enough. I'll come back and select the answer tomorrow
[18:16] <jcastro> yeah
[18:16] <jcastro> so sometimes if someone's answer helped me a bit
[18:16] <jcastro> but you need to finish it off
[18:16] <jcastro> I do:
[18:16] <jcastro> "John's _answer_ helped me figure it out, I had to finish it off with foo, bar, baz"
[18:16] <jcastro> then upvote him
[18:23] <rick_h_> jcastro: cool, ty SE pro :)
[18:23] <rick_h_> jcastro: so did I hear it's official?
[18:25] <rick_h_> lol
[18:29] <derekv2> so, oh yea, last week i figured out installing oracle java on ubuntu in an automated way is "interesting" and reaffirmed my dislike of oracle and java
[18:30] <snap-l> jcastro: Very cool. SO you're going to be in AA-proper then?
[18:30] <jcastro> ypsilanti township
[18:30] <snap-l> Love their library down there
[18:31] <jcastro> heh
[18:31] <jcastro> I'm about 5 minutes from it
[18:31] <snap-l> Ah, cool. I have a fighting chance of finding you, then
[18:32] <greg-g> ypsi is a surprisingly hard town to drive around in
[18:32] <snap-l> yes
[18:32] <snap-l> If I'm not lost once I pass EMU, I don't feel like I've been there.
[18:33] <greg-g> rick_h_: carrie's sister lives about 5 minutes South of the library
[18:33] <rick_h_> upvotes appreciated: http://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/v8b7u/pyohio_the_annual_python_conference_in_columbus/
[18:33] <greg-g> erm that was supposed to be for jcastro
[18:33] <greg-g> jcastro: carrie's sister lives about 5 minutes South of the library
[18:33] <jrwren> jcastro: what neighborhood?
[18:34] <jcastro> greg-g: wow you will have a place to stay!
[18:34] <jcastro> jrwren: some subdivision
[18:34] <greg-g> dude, what address, you might be near her!
[18:34] <jrwren> lol, K. near what intersection?
[18:34] <jcastro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upWYBz_NEo4
[18:34] <jcastro> it's like 94 and 23
[18:35] <rick_h_> oh wow, that's kind of cool
[18:36] <jrwren> damn jorge, that looks nice
[18:36] <rick_h_> no kidding
[18:36]  * rick_h_ steals your walk in for my wife
[18:37] <greg-g> jcastro: carrie's sis is about here: http://goo.gl/maps/jMNA
[18:37] <jrwren> oh, that is way the hell out east :)
[18:37] <jrwren> you don't have to commute to woirk.
[18:37] <jcastro> greg-g: we're in the sub one over to the right
[18:37] <jrwren> where is jill planning on seeking work?
[18:38] <jcastro> jrwren: jill does, but it's like 20min
[18:38] <greg-g> jcastro: gotcha
[18:40] <jrwren> only 10 miles from where I live now. i shall invite you to Original Gravity for beer, often.
[18:42] <jcastro> we will be best buddies
[18:42] <jcastro> jrwren: she'll be working in downtown
[18:42] <jcastro> kerrytown I think they call it
[18:43] <jrwren> ah, kerrytown rocks. where is she working?
[18:44] <greg-g> kerrytown is north of downtown
[18:44] <greg-g> ;)
[18:44] <jrwren> oh greg-g :)
[18:45] <jrwren> by two blocks!
[18:45] <jcastro> jrwren: http://www.hygeiacenter.org/
[18:47] <jrwren> can I force another make rule to execute even if its deps don't req the rule to run?
[18:49] <rick_h_> .PHONY it
[18:49] <rick_h_> or touch the dep
[18:51] <derekv2> what I don't remember, is can you do dependancies that are not file+timestamp ...
[18:51] <derekv2> like you'd like to see that a line exists in a file, if not add it
[18:53] <rick_h_> not that I know of. You'd have to biuld that smarts intot he command and make it a phony target
[18:53] <derekv2> i guess if you put both test and command in a .PHONY it'd be the same
[18:53] <derekv2> re
[18:55] <greg-g> jcastro: whoa! that's a pretty interesting place jill will be working!
[18:55] <jcastro> yeah, it's like, an old house
[18:58] <jrwren> yes, I did .PHONY
[18:58] <jrwren> but basically I want make test to be teh same as anotehr rule I alreayd have defined
[18:58] <jrwren> but that rule(err target) does have real deps and so it won't execute.
[18:58] <jrwren> I'm trying to DRY my target commands
[19:00] <jrwren> ah, got it.
[19:02] <rick_h_> cool
[19:54] <snap-l> greg-g: Are you getting your files back?
[19:59] <greg-g> snap-l: no garauntees yet, but they may have at least a partial collection of files
[20:00] <greg-g> they first created a Recovered dir in U1 where they then put the last 10000 deleted files
[20:00] <greg-g> on their end it worked (ie, some files showed up in Grad_Shool) but I can't see them locally or via one.ubuntu.com
[20:01] <greg-g> so, fingers still crossd
[20:01] <greg-g> +e
[20:03] <jrwren> hrm, no i don't have my make file quite right.
[20:16] <snap-l> greg-g: That's a hard lesson
[20:16] <snap-l> one I learned with my music collection :)
[20:19] <greg-g> yeah, don't trust SSDs ;)
[20:20] <rick_h_> well any hard drive
[20:20] <greg-g> they'll disappear some files without telling you, then U1 will faithfully sync that disappearance everywhere else :)
[20:20] <rick_h_> but yea, that's why they always say a mirror never counts as a backup
[20:20] <rick_h_> ugh
[20:20] <greg-g> right
[20:20] <rick_h_> backup is hard, let's go shopping
[20:20] <greg-g> :)
[20:24] <jrwren> but at least when a disk fails it USUALLY goes slowly and you can do some recoverty.
[20:24] <jrwren> SSD just dies. dead. forever gone.
[20:24] <jrwren> death
[20:24] <jrwren> no life
[20:28] <snap-l> I thought SSD would just go read-only
[20:31] <rick_h_> ok, so usb3 is nice...go go go
[20:32] <snap-l> Yeah, USB3 is a nice little compromise
[20:32] <rick_h_> syncing off my system to the original drive that came with this thing, in a usb 3 carrier and it's definitely getting some speed
[20:37] <greg-g> snap-l: nope, it goes "I was never here, there was never any file here"
[20:37] <snap-l> I do wonder if I'd get some more performance by moving my backup drive to the router.
[20:37] <greg-g> also:
[20:37] <greg-g> 16:34 <      rye> ok, I see why it is and at the moment I don't understand why, there is no hash for the recovered  file entries i.e. no attached content data, digging deeper, but this does not look promising at  all
[20:37] <greg-g> :*
[20:37] <greg-g> :(
[20:37] <snap-l> greg-g: Fuck
[20:37] <snap-l> greg-g: Does it show as an 8MB device?
[20:37] <snap-l> and was it an Intel drive?
[20:38] <greg-g> ?
[20:38] <snap-l> http://communities.intel.com/message/133499
[20:38] <greg-g> it was Intel
[20:39] <greg-g> huh, no, it is just done, dead
[20:40] <jrwren> how fast is usb3? 4Gbit?  hrm... usb3 to usb3 network anyone? :)
[20:40] <rick_h_> I wish sent<PHONE_NUMBER>4 bytes  received 5040598 bytes  82327121.67 bytes/sec
[20:40] <rick_h_> total size is<PHONE_NUMBER>6  speedup is 1.00
[20:41] <rick_h_> that's the end of the rsync, minus the I wish thing
[20:41] <rick_h_> that was intended for something else...ugh
[20:41] <jrwren> that is slower than gigabit
[20:41] <snap-l> heh
[21:07] <greg-g> 17:07 <      rye> I am very sorry to say this but according to the data I have the files were never uploaded to  Ubuntu One for some reason. Even when the clients were released which were fixing the issues  found the metadata kept the flag the files were synchronized and no action was taken by the  client. I am afraid that's the only thing I can tell and I am extremely sorry for this issue.
[21:07] <greg-g> :(
[21:09] <rick_h_> ugh, sorry greg-g
[21:12] <snap-l> greg-g: Was holidng out hope
[21:13] <greg-g> I'm going to go buy some whiskey for tonight
[21:13] <greg-g> (joking)
[21:14] <greg-g> I had mostly come to terms with it since Friday
[21:14] <snap-l> Is the BIOS not recognizing the drive?
[21:16] <snap-l> greg-g: Wondered if Spinrite might help out, but apparently it's useless for SSDs
[21:18] <greg-g> snap-l: yeah, but when it is mounted there are thousands of errors according to e2fsck
[21:18] <greg-g> maybe millions, basically, the whole drive is in an error state :)
[21:18] <snap-l> could you mount the drive read-only and try reading it that way?
[21:19] <greg-g> its dead, jim.
[21:19] <snap-l> firmware update!
[21:19] <greg-g> jim, its dead.
[21:19] <snap-l> defibrilator!
[21:19] <greg-g> JIM!
[21:20] <greg-g> snap out of it man!
[21:20] <snap-l> ship it here so I can smack it around a bit
[21:21] <snap-l> http://risha.bandcamp.com/album/leto-summer
[21:46] <greg-g> snap-l: risha is very very interesting


[14:47] <mhej> Hi, is there some issue with  Launchpad login via Ubuntu One? I've just created an account but every time I try to login to Launchpad I am getting an "Oops!" page. Tried different browsers, no luck.
[16:42] <cjwatson> mhej: you should get an error ID on that oops page - we need to know that ID in order to fix your account
[17:23] <mhej> cjwatson: (Error ID: OOPS-0f22797d340a375cdbf04a8ea48da54e), (Error ID: OOPS-cd3f7321a755265f76c196e2539c09ee), (Error ID: OOPS-5908162efeb6c545f0bd986c24448091)
[17:24] <mhej> Thanks, btw.
[19:41] <cjwatson> mhej: The confusion was because of a placeholder account record that LP had created for that email address when handling a comment imported from another bug tracking system.  I've merged that into your new one, so you should be able to log in now.
[20:09] <mhej> cjwatson: it works now, thanks for quick help!
[20:10] <cjwatson> np


[00:27] <davecheney> sinzui: I am having trouble enabling the 'proposed' repository for trusty
[00:28] <davecheney> oh no
[00:28] <davecheney> wait
[00:28] <davecheney> yeah, that got it
[02:14] <wallyworld> http://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/documentation/articles/manage-availability-virtual-machines/
[02:27] <thumper> wallyworld, axw, waigani: https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/document/d/1PJiqBiAndIKvT6WYT1fG4rBX2b4sF90j3m7GTLNoZiE/edit
[02:32] <bigjools> I upgraded to trusty and the environment I started under saucy doesn't look great now...
[02:32] <bigjools> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6795052/
[02:32] <bigjools> what's going on?
[02:33] <thumper> bigjools: you probably need to upgrade the environment
[02:33] <thumper> bigjools: but the short answre is "we hate you"
[02:33] <bigjools> thumper: I knew *that* already
[02:34] <wallyworld> bigjools: first mistake - upgrading to alpha software for production purposes
[02:34] <wallyworld> :-P
[02:34] <bigjools> who said it was production purposes? :)
[02:35] <bigjools> anyway you're missing all the fun weather over here
[02:37] <wallyworld> hot?
[02:37] <bigjools> heat index is nearly 47
[02:37] <wallyworld> ah, so cool then
[02:37] <bigjools> your missus will be asking you for a/c when you get back :)
[02:37] <wallyworld> amongst other things
[02:39] <bigjools> thumper: how do I upgrade an environment?
[02:39] <thumper> bigjools: juju upgrade ??
[02:39] <bigjools> you may point me at TFM
[02:39] <bigjools> upgrade-juju?
[02:40] <wallyworld> think so
[02:41] <wallyworld> if it's upgrading to a trunk release from source, you need --upload-tools IIRC
[02:41] <bigjools> I am using 1.17.0-trusty-amd64
[02:41] <bigjools> I think my existing env is 1.16
[02:41] <bigjools> so it should find tools for 1.17 without the --upload I guess?
[02:43] <bigjools> well looks like it didn't work anyway :(
[03:35] <wallyworld> thumper: https://codereview.appspot.com/55300043/
[07:28] <bigjools> folks, I deleted a service and it's machine so I can redeploy it on a new series, but when trying to deploy it says the service already exists.  It doesn't appear on "juju status" though..... is this a bug?  v<IP_ADDRESS>
[07:28] <bigjools> its*  gah hate that
[07:36] <dimitern> bigjools, is this a local env?
[07:36] <bigjools> dimitern: canonistack
[07:37] <bigjools> dimitern: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6795916/
[07:38] <dimitern> bigjools, hmm that's weird
[07:38] <bigjools> dimitern: I upgraded the tools from 1.16 earlier.  I suspect that may have something to do with it
[07:38] <dimitern> bigjools, we had issues like that but with the local provider, and they were fixed since
[07:38] <dimitern> bigjools, can you perhaps do a mongo dump and file a bug please?
[07:39] <bigjools> dimitern: if you give me monkey-like instructions to do that, yes :)
[07:40] <dimitern> bigjools, :) just a sec
[07:42] <bigjools> dimitern: np.  There's a massive storm bearing down on me that is likely to cut my power/internet, so no pressure.  :)
[07:42] <dimitern> bigjools, using juju backup
[07:43] <dimitern> bigjools, it's a plugin that does that - it has --help as well
[07:43] <bigjools> where do I get it?
[07:49] <bigjools> dimitern: I have to run out for a bit, can you send me details please :)
[08:25] <fwereade> axw, am I right in thinking bigjools' problem above is that one about the env life field, that's fixed in trunk?
[08:37] <TheMue> fwereade: morning
[08:37] <TheMue> fwereade: any chance to take another look at https://codereview.appspot.com/44540043/ this morning?
[08:37] <fwereade> TheMue, heyhey
[08:37] <fwereade> TheMue, all I can say is "maybe" :/
[08:39] <TheMue> fwereade: ok, thx
[08:39] <TheMue> dimitern: after your help yesterday a deeper look at https://codereview.appspot.com/44540043/ would be appreciated too
[08:40]  * TheMue is getting closer, but so far didn't found any watcher via API used in cmd/juju so far
[08:49] <dimitern> TheMue, definitely looks better now
[08:49] <dimitern> bigjools, it's part of core - in cmd/juju/plugins
[08:51] <rogpeppe1> mornin' all
[08:59] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, morning
[08:59] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, thanks again for all the reviews yesterday
[09:00] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: np
[09:00] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i'm looking for a review of https://codereview.appspot.com/55150043 BTW
[09:00] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, looking
[09:06] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, quick question - what's the deal with NoVote and VotingMachineIds ?
[09:07] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that's the way that EnsureAvailability will be able to reduce the number of machines in the peer group without just removing them.
[09:08] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, and a peer group is a set of machines in a replicaset ?
[09:08] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: if a machine goes down, we don't want to just remove it from the peer group, because it may come up again
[09:08] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yes
[09:08] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, i see
[09:08] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: not all machines in a replica set are necessarily voting
[09:08] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it also gives us the freedom in the future to be able to deliberately bring up non-voting machines to act as backup
[09:09] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: there will also be another field associated with the machine: IsVoting - indicating the actual voting status of the machine.
[09:09] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that will be set by the peergrouper worker
[09:10] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, IsVoting or WantVote ?
[09:10] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: IsVoting
[09:10] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, and WantVote ?
[09:10] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that's just the negation of NoVote
[09:10] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, (looking in the code comments of Ensure..)
[09:10] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, ah, ok
[09:10] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i didn't want to do WantsVote in the machineDoc because that would be incompatible with previous versions.
[09:11] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: which wouldn't have the field in the schema
[09:14] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, yeah, but can't it be added in a compatible way? Like the default value (when missing) is fine?
[09:15] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that just makes the logic harder - you'd have to look for "wantsVote==true || wantsVote==nil"
[09:15] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i think it works pretty well inverted actually
[09:15] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, i see, well this can be hidden behind a machine method, no?
[09:16] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it is, isn't it?
[09:16] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, sorry, just got there
[09:16] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, I see now
[09:16] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: apart from in the MachineTemplate, where NoVote actually makes sense, because you actually almost always want a vote
[09:17] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: things became simpler when I changed MachineTemplate.WantsVote to MachineTemplate.NoVote
[09:17] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, yeah, i agree
[09:29] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, reviewed
[09:29] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: thanks a lot
[09:37] <jam> fwereade: ping about API version numbering
[09:37] <jam> I've been trying to respond to your email and thinking about it, but I think it comes across rambling in email form, so it might be better as a 1:1 chat
[09:44] <fwereade> jam, pong
[09:45] <jam> fwereade: hey hey
[09:45] <fwereade> jam, was I terribly unclear?
[09:47] <jam> fwereade: there is just a lot that I've thought about it.
[09:47] <jam> fwereade: specifically, what does it actually *mean* to have a global rev vs a local rev, how does stuff look like in code, etc.
[09:48] <fwereade> jam, so, I think the local revs are purely an internal tool to help us manage bloat
[09:49] <jam> fwereade: I sent my long rambly email
[09:49] <jam> fwereade: there are problems with global rev that we should probably explore as well
[09:49] <jam> namely, where /when is that sent on the wire
[09:49] <fwereade> jam, codewise, a request comes in with a version, namespace, method, params; we get the facade by looking up the namespace given the version and get an actual facade on which we can call.Method(Params)
[09:49] <jam> fwereade: codewise *today* it comes in with namespace, ??, method, params
[09:50] <jam> and we can make ?? == version
[09:50] <fwereade> jam, my suggestion earlier was that we demand it on every call
[09:50] <fwereade> jam, yeah
[09:50] <jam> It looks confusing that global version comes after namespace
[09:50] <jam> but supersedes it
[09:50] <jam> fwereade: so the next failure I explored is that we can have a relatively new client
[09:50] <jam> that still calls a really old version
[09:50] <jam> just because we never touched that code
[09:50] <jam> and then we can't actually remove compatibility
[09:51] <jam> so even though the API is 5 years old, and "Machine", "100", "Add" works just fine and is identical to "Machine", "1", "Add"
[09:51] <jam> the very newest 'juju' commandline tool still calls
[09:51] <jam> "Machine", "1", "Add"
[09:52] <fwereade> jam, I think that's the least of our problems because we can at least control that -- it's everybody else calling v1 that's the problem, surely?
[09:52] <fwereade> jam, and also that there will be old server versions that we'll have to fall back to even with new clients, at least for some time
[09:52] <jam> fwereade: we can audit for it, but it is fairly expensive to sort out what version of Juju was calling what version of the API. If we work on making the juju CLI always call "latest" versions, then you don't have 2 pieces that break independently
[09:53] <fwereade> jam, well, we *do* probably want to keep the CLI up to date with API versions, it's true, but we also need to leave fallback code in place, right?
[09:53] <jam> fwereade: so, if you have 1 global rev number, then all call sites get bumped any time you change anything, right?
[09:54] <jam> except the ones where that actually changes the implementation so we use the 'slightly older one' as we transition / (we want to update all our call sites eventually, I'm sure)
[09:54] <fwereade> jam, they could do, yes, but I don't think it's necessarily required or expected that everybody does so
[09:56] <jam> fwereade: so there is a little bit of "what do we do in Juju because we control both ends" and "what do we suggest 3rd parties do"
[09:56] <jam> if we're going with a global bump, and we can remove old ones after we've deprecated it for "long enough"
[09:56] <fwereade> jam, yeah, I think *we* should, but we can't necessarily impose it on everybody else
[09:56] <jam> then we do want some sort of push for people to go to the latest thing they could
[09:57] <jam> for example, how do people get informed that the API they are using is deprecated?
[09:58] <fwereade> jam, I'm not sure what mechanisms we have for encouraging people to update their clients (apart from public warnings that vX will be going away in N months -- and making version removal clear in release notes)
[09:59] <jam> fwereade: well, you can return something in the API that "this is deprecated" but it needs to be done in a way that is actually useful
[10:00] <jam> Users don't actually care
[10:00] <jam> its developers that need to be informed about it
[10:00] <jam> I guess you could have client versions logged, and calling a deprecated version generates an email to juju-core that client X version Y is still using a now deprecated API ? :)
[10:01] <fwereade> jam, ok, you're talking about us here? or everyone else as well?
[10:02] <jam> fwereade: I mean the juju server would notice when a client connects and calls a deprecated API and aggregate that into something useful for other people
[10:02] <jam> then you have some sort of report about "juju-1.16.5 is still very common in the wild and is making lots of calls to X", and "juju-developer 0.8 is still calling Y"
[10:03] <jam> it would be *useful* in the fact that we can then contact the developer directly and let them know we're deprecating something
[10:03] <jam> but it is highly invasive :)
[10:03] <fwereade> jam, well there is some reasonable worry about collecting that data
[10:45] <rvba> Hi guys, I'm was trying to bootstrap a juju env and I got this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6796595/.  Is this a known problem?  It does not seem to happen consistently but I don't think that's the first time I saw this.
[10:45] <jam> rvba: looking
[10:49] <jam> rvba: what version of the client are you using?
[10:49] <jam> (juju version)
[10:49] <jam> mgz: wallyworld: standup?
[10:50] <rvba> jam: apt-cache policy juju-core → 1.16.3-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>
[10:50] <mgz> ta jam
[10:50] <jam> rvba: it is *possible* that this was something we fixed in 1.16.5
[10:50] <jam> rvba: there was an EOF bug that we implemented a workaround fro
[10:50] <jam> for
[10:51] <rvba> jam: ah ok, thanks. I guess I'll upgrade using the PPA and test again…
[10:52] <jam> rvba: you'll probably want a 1.16 series, rather than 1.17, I think
[10:53] <rvba> The stable PPA has 1.16.5-0ubuntu1~ubuntu13.10.1~juju1.
[10:53] <jam> rvba: great, I think devel has 1.17.0
[10:57] <rvba> jam: same problem with the new version: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6796653/
[10:57] <jam> rvba: looks like https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1239558
[10:58] <jam> but that actually claims it was only fixed in 1.17 :(
[10:58] <rvba> ah, right.
[11:04] <rvba> jam: sorry to bother you again… I'm trying to use juju on Trusty (1.17.0-0ubuntu2) and now I get: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6796670/
[11:04] <rvba> Any idea what might be wrong?
[11:05] <jam> rvba: there you need to use "juju bootstrap --upload-toolS"
[11:05] <jam> we're looking for tools on streams.canonical.com
[11:05] <jam> but that hasn't been finished being set up yet
[11:05] <rvba> Ah okay, makes sense.
[11:05] <rvba> Thanks.
[11:23] <jam> mgz: do you have a chance to investigate why "juju-1.17" can't do "status" vs a 1.16 server? (Did it get fixed and I'm missing something?)
[11:25] <jam> (at least here trunk r2239 still fails)
[11:26] <mgz> jam: er, I'll recheck
[11:31] <bigjools> I am trying to bootstrap an environment using 1.17 and it insists that I am already bootstrapped but I am not.  What else is it checking? there are no instances running
[11:32] <mgz> bigjools: probably the bootstrap-verify file in your cloud storage
[11:32] <mgz> bigjools: you can just run `juju destroy-environment` to clear everything out
[11:32] <bigjools> mgz: it fails
[11:32] <bigjools> because I have no instances
[11:33] <mgz> I guess that's a provider bug then
[11:33] <bigjools> Continue [y/N]? y
[11:33] <bigjools> ERROR no instances found
[11:33] <mgz> it should always do all the work, even if some parts of it have already completed
[11:33] <bigjools> this is the openstack provider
[11:33] <mgz> can you list the control bucket externally and see what it contains?
[11:34] <bigjools> how do I do that?  sorry I know bugger all about openstack
[11:34] <mgz> eg, look in ~/.juju/environment/<right one> for the control bucket name
[11:34] <mgz> then `swift list <that name>`
[11:34] <jam> mgz: just have him delete the fixed bucket in environments.yaml ?
[11:34] <bigjools> ok
[11:34] <mgz> python-swiftclient if you don't have it
[11:34] <jam> so we generate a random one
[11:35] <mgz> jam: I curious if we actually have a provider bug on destroy
[11:35] <bigjools> yes it lists the files
[11:35] <bigjools> provider bug
[11:36] <mgz> so, now delete those with `swift delete` and bootstrap - if that works, please do file a bug
[11:36] <bigjools> ok cheers
[11:37] <bigjools> mgz: that fixed it indeed.  thanks for the help
[11:37]  * bigjools files  bug
[11:39] <natefinch> fwereade: when you get a chance, I'd like to talk about your comments on the EnsureMongoServer stuff.
[11:47] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: it turns out that Machine.Destroy only fails if the machine has JobManageEnviron, not JobManageState...
[11:48] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: i think that's probably a bug, but it makes me think (yet again) of changing the semantics of those two jobs
[12:37] <rvba> jam: I /think/ the problem we're struggling with in MAAS+Juju might be related to https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1257649.  I don't understand the comment on there that says this is irrelevant now… care to enlighten me?
[13:03] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, I'd be +1 on that
[13:03] <fwereade> natefinch, might need to be a bit later
[13:04] <natefinch> fwereade: np, I am currently encumbered anyway
[13:06] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: my thought is to have two manager jobs, one for jobs which can be blown away with probs (e.g. the API server) and one for jobs which require special handling with EnsureAvailability and freidns
[13:06] <rogpeppe1> friends, even
[13:06] <rogpeppe1> s/with probs/without probs/
[13:06] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: for the time being though, i'm wondering about just ditching one of the jobs entirely
[13:06] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, I'd be most happy just ditching one of them
[13:07] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: i don't think the distinction between ManageEnviron and ManageState is currently useful
[13:07] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: cool, i'll do that.
[13:07] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, agreed, it seemed like a good idea at the time
[13:07] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: yeah
[13:07] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, the universal explanation
[13:07] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: at some point in the indefinite future, i'd like to be able to scale up API servers independently of mongo servers
[13:08] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: but i think that's easier to do by adding a new job then
[13:08] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, agreed, but I don't think we're actually getting there any faster by maintaining that somewhat fuzzy distinction at the moment
[13:08] <rogpeppe1> fwereade: yup
[13:08] <fwereade> rogpeppe1, sweet, thanks
[13:10] <jam> rvba: in the current code in trunk, we don't have an internal timeout for the SSH connection. (I think) I'd have to double check what version you're running and what disconnections you're seeing
[13:28] <rvba> jam: we think the bug in question might be the cause of the problem we're seeing in the lab.  It takes more than 10 minutes to bring up a bootstrap node in MAAS because before installing jujud on it, we have to install it using d-i.
[13:29] <rvba> jam: we're trying to re-build juju with a different timeout to confirm this.
[13:38] <rvba> jam: what we're seeing is that 'juju bootstrap' gives up after 10 minutes and we think it might have succeeded with a bit more time :)
[14:25] <TheMue> debugging-by-println, sometimes nothing else works :D
[14:30] <TheMue> aaaaargh, apiserver.StringsWatcher requires to be called by an agent, client is not allowed (dunno why). THATS why debug-log has a "permission denied error"
[14:30] <TheMue> *sigh*
[14:35] <rick_h_> can anyone verify that a juju 'upgrade' to an older revision is possible on pyjuju please?
[14:50] <rogpeppe> fwereade: re: your comment on EnsureMongoServer, it's not adding anything that isn't already there
[14:51] <rogpeppe> fwereade: and if the state port isn't stored in the agent config, where *would* it be stored?
[14:52] <fwereade> rogpeppe, well it's already in the env config
[14:52] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but the agent doesn't have access to the env config until they've connected to the state, right?
[14:53] <fwereade> rogpeppe, this is all bootstrap time, isn't it? perhaps I'm confused there
[14:54] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it's also used after bootstrap time, when new state servers come up
[14:54] <rogpeppe> fwereade: but...
[14:54] <rogpeppe> fwereade: i'm thinking you may be right, because a second state server will have access to the API, even if they can't connect to mongo
[14:54] <fwereade> rogpeppe, but anything setting up a state server is either doing so at bootstrap, or in response to being told to by the API, right?
[14:54] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah
[14:55] <fwereade> rick_h_, pyjuju didn't have juju upgrades at all
[14:55] <TheMue> fwereade: you may help me with a design decision? why do the watcher in apiserver/root.go require to be called by an agent?
[14:56] <rogpeppe> fwereade, natefinch: huh, that call to ensureMongoServer in MachineAgent.Run doesn't look right at all
[14:56] <fwereade> TheMue, that was the only thing that needed it at the time
[14:56] <TheMue> fwereade: would like to use the StringsWatcher from the client
[14:56] <TheMue> fwereade: so changing would be ok?
[14:56] <fwereade> TheMue, let me take a quick look at the code
[14:56] <TheMue> fwereade: yep
[14:57] <fwereade> TheMue, aw hell
[14:57] <fwereade> TheMue, yes it's fine to change it
[14:57] <fwereade> TheMue, but it's not a simpleone
[14:58] <TheMue> fwereade: great, that helps a lot for debug-log
[14:58] <fwereade> TheMue, ISTM that there's a pretty serious problem with all the watchers
[14:58] <TheMue> fwereade: oh *listening*
[14:58] <fwereade> TheMue, there's nothing preventing clients from grabbing each other's watchers willy-nilly
[14:59] <TheMue> fwereade: come on, let them have some fun *lol*
[14:59] <fwereade> TheMue, there's presumably something about a given resource that ties it to a particular client, otherwise we couldn't tidy up resources when conns are closed
[14:59] <fwereade> TheMue, haha
[14:59] <rogpeppe> fwereade: clients don't share resources
[14:59] <fwereade> TheMue, so ISTM this is something that can and should (nay must) be fixed for all the watchers
[14:59] <TheMue> rogpeppe: exactly, that's how I understood it too
[15:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, yeah, I just can't remember the exact mechanism
[15:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, ohhhhh ok it's maybe ok? individual clients get separate resource idspaces anyway, right?
[15:00] <rogpeppe> fwereade: exactly
[15:00] <fwereade> rogpeppe, cool
[15:00] <fwereade> TheMue, belay that panic then
[15:01] <fwereade> TheMue, you can just open up stringswatcher I think
[15:01] <TheMue> fwereade: yes, will start with that one as I only need it
[15:01] <rogpeppe> fwereade: specifically, newSrvRoot allocates a new resources map, and it's called when a client successfully logged in, and stored in the root object for that client
[15:02] <rogpeppe> TheMue, fwereade: opening up StringsWatcher seems fine to me
[15:03]  * TheMue takes the key to open it
[15:28] <natefinch> fwereade: back, let me know when you'd like to talk
[15:48] <dimitern> rogpeppe, fwereade, natefinch - I have two branches up for review, which complete the firewaller API story: https://codereview.appspot.com/55670043 and -  https://codereview.appspot.com/55680043 I'd really appreciate if someone takes a look
[16:32] <adeuring> could somebody have a llok here: https://codereview.appspot.com/55690043 ?
[16:35] <natefinch> adeuring: looking
[16:36] <adeuring> thanks
[16:46] <natefinch> adeuring: reviewed
[16:46] <adeuring> natefinch: thanks!
[16:46] <natefinch> adeuring: thank you :)
[16:57] <natefinch> rogpeppe: what was the problem you had with ensuremongoserver?  I saw a couple problems while reviewing it with William (like, we only need to call it if we have a managestate job, and I need to be more tolerant in case the directory and files already exist).
[16:57] <rogpeppe> natefinch: why is it called unconditionally in the machine agent?
[16:58] <rogpeppe> natefinch: ah, yes, that's "we only need to call it if we have a managestate job"
[16:58] <natefinch> rogpeppe: right, I realized that when I went back to look over the code
[17:01] <rogpeppe> natefinch: i'm just about to delete JobManageState throughout the code, BTW, and just use JobManageEnviron throughout
[17:03] <natefinch> rogpeppe: cool, I'll check for that one then
[17:03] <dimitern> natefinch, rogpeppe, review poke?
[17:03] <rogpeppe> dimitern: will look shortly
[17:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe, cheers
[17:12] <natefinch> rogpeppe: is openApiState the appropriate way to get the list of jobs for the machine agent?  I don't see an easier way to do it
[17:12] <rogpeppe> natefinch: yes
[17:12] <natefinch> rogpeppe: cool
[17:12] <rogpeppe> natefinch: you might not find it that easy
[17:13] <rogpeppe> natefinch: but actually, as long as jobs stay constant, it's probably not too bad
[17:13] <rogpeppe> natefinch: the difficulty comes at bootstrap time
[17:14] <rogpeppe> natefinch: because at bootstrap time (or if a single remaining state server machine reboots) there's no API server to go to to ask for jobs
[17:15] <natefinch> rogpeppe: ahh, right
[17:17] <dimitern> natefinch, can you take a look at this please? https://codereview.appspot.com/55680043
[17:18] <natefinch> dimitern: sure thing
[17:20] <dimitern> natefinch, cheers
[17:45] <rogpeppe> hmm, a recent update (revno 2226) has broken tests for me
[17:58] <dimitern> rogpeppe, natefinch , guys, sorry to poke you again, but i'd like to land these two today if possible
[17:59] <rogpeppe> dimitern: looking, sorry, i've been struggling to get tests to pass
[17:59] <dimitern> rogpeppe, what's wrong?
[18:00] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i've just reported https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1271674 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1271672,
[18:00] <rogpeppe> dimitern: but mostly just crap from removing JobManageState
[18:01] <dimitern> rogpeppe, wow test.invalid resolves in your local net?
[18:01] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yeah. blame my ISP
[18:02] <rogpeppe> dimitern: they resolve everything to their yahoo search page
[18:02] <dimitern> rogpeppe, ah, nasty
[18:02] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it resolves to <IP_ADDRESS> for me
[18:03] <dimitern> to what lengths some people go for the sake of marketing
[18:06] <natefinch> dimitern: sorry, caught me during lunch.  I'm looking now for real though
[18:07] <dimitern> natefinch, thanks
[18:07] <natefinch> rogpeppe: my ISP does similar things, forwards DNS failures to their own page.  In theory you can disable it at the router, but I've forgotten the password to it :/
[18:08]  * dimitern is aft for a while
[18:08] <dimitern> afk even
[18:24] <natefinch> dimitern: reviewed
[18:50] <arosales> will any folks here be joning the charm writing virt. sprint?
[19:00] <natefinch> arosales: core is pretty slammed right now.  I know I'm pretty behind where I'm supposed to be.... not sure about others.
[19:03] <arosales> natefinch, ack I'll check with some others
[19:19] <lazypower> to whomever fixed the state-watcher bug, i could hug you.
[19:22] <rogpeppe> lazypower: you're welcome :-)
[19:22] <lazypower> rogpeppe, you + me + beer in our future
[19:23] <rogpeppe> lazypower: SGTM!
[20:47] <thumper> arosales: hey there
[20:47] <thumper> arosales: I think you are under the mistaken impression that we know how to write charms :-)
[20:49] <natefinch> thumper: roger does, more or less :)  He wrote that Go charm thing, which looks pretty cool.
[20:49] <thumper> hey natefinch
[20:49]  * natefinch might be biased for anything Go and against anything bash, though
[20:49] <natefinch> thumper: howdy
[20:50] <thumper> natefinch: heh
[20:50] <natefinch> thumper: you're using Sublime Text and GoSublime, right?
[20:50] <thumper> natefinch: I am now
[20:51] <thumper> getting the hang of it
[20:51] <natefinch> does go to definition work for you on methods?  Like if you have s.Foo()  can you go to the definition of the Foo() method?  It doesn't work for me, and it's really annoying
[20:52] <natefinch> I can go to definition of types and top level functions, but not methods on types.
[20:53] <natefinch> I end up having to resort to a full text search like some kind of Neanderthal.
[20:54] <arosales> thumper, you guys are coding kings I am sure you can crank out all sorts of quality code
[20:54] <thumper> bwahaha
[20:54] <fwereade> thumper, heyhey
[20:54] <thumper> arosales: we are kinda focused on several areas that will make others more happier
[20:54] <thumper> fwereade: hey dude
[20:55] <arosales> thumper, understood. I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask though
[20:55] <fwereade> thumper, I should have come on earlier and arranged things and so on
[20:55] <arosales> just in case :-)
[20:55] <thumper> arosales: sure
[20:55] <arosales> thumper, thanks for the consideration though
[20:55] <fwereade> thumper, don't suppose you're free to chat about availability sets a bit?
[20:55] <thumper> arosales: if we were just sitting around drinking, then yeah, we'd help
[20:55] <thumper> fwereade: sure
[20:56] <arosales> thumper,  lol
[20:56] <natefinch> thumper: that doesn't sound like you guys....
[20:56] <fwereade> thumper, or have you just been explaining to arosales that you wouldn't do them? ;p
[20:56] <arosales> thumper, I know you aren't doing that given I brought up the availability sets too
[20:56] <thumper> arosales: we aren't working on the availability sets just yet, but we have talked about it...
[20:56] <arosales> fwereade, that was charm tests thumper was breaking my heart on
[20:56] <thumper> arosales: we are working on proxy support, local provider improvements
[20:57] <fwereade> aww
[20:57] <thumper> fwereade: want a hangout?
[20:57] <fwereade> thumper, sgtm
[20:57] <arosales> thumper, its only mid week  :-)
[20:58] <thumper> fwereade: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpibmqriabeqpmu77ctb34ns?hl=en
[20:58] <thumper> arosales: for you.. thursday morning for us
[20:59] <arosales> thats 2 full days :-)  I'll let you get back to work
[21:23] <fwereade> natefinch, ping
[21:23] <natefinch> fwereade: pong
[21:33] <thumper> natefinch: we should chat about upgrades
[21:33] <natefinch> thumper: I love upgrades
[21:34] <natefinch> thumper:  shall I join the hangout?
[21:34] <thumper> natefinch: sure
[21:34] <fwereade> natefinch, damn sorry I had a response half typed out
[21:35] <thumper> natefinch: fwereade just left the hangout, but I'm still there waiting for you
[22:19] <hazmat> thumper, runonallmachines .. runs on all units.. or just machines?
[22:19] <thumper> hazmat: it does what it says :-)
[22:19] <thumper> on the machiens
[22:19] <thumper> or machines
[22:19] <thumper> we don't have an --all-units
[22:20] <thumper> if you need it, file a bug :)
[22:20] <hazmat> thumper, so this isn't juju-run.. this is arbitrary script run?
[22:20] <thumper> no...
[22:20] <thumper> only when running on a unit does it get the unit context
[22:20] <thumper> you can also run on the machine outside of a unit context
[22:21] <thumper> however it will get the hook execution flock
[22:21] <thumper> to make sure that it doesn't run in parallel with a hook
[22:21] <hazmat> cool, was just doing my monthly check for new api methods and came across.
[22:21] <thumper> :-)
[22:22] <thumper> it is freaky magic shit
[22:22] <hazmat> orchestration even ;-)
[22:22] <thumper> yeah, that
[22:22] <thumper> ansible-lite
[22:23] <hazmat> thumper, so commands string need a #!/bin/executable preprend?
[22:23] <thumper> no
[22:23] <thumper> we do that
[22:23] <thumper> actually, we send it through /bin/bash -s
[22:23] <hazmat> hmm.. so assumes bash?
[22:23] <thumper> yes
[22:23]  * hazmat files a bug ;-)
[22:24] <hazmat> bcsaller, ^ you might be interested in this
[22:24] <thumper> nah
[22:24] <thumper> why?
[22:24] <thumper> if you want to execute a magic script
[22:24] <thumper> write it to disk and call it
[22:24] <hazmat> i guess exec works.. just feels a little klunky that way
[22:24]  * bcsaller reads
[22:27] <thumper> bcsaller: we have 'juju run' now
[22:27] <thumper> which has an api end point
[22:27] <thumper> so in theory, the gui could run arbitrary code on any machine, service or unit
[22:28] <bcsaller> thumper: good stuff
[22:29]  * thumper considers a button on a machine in the gui called 'reboot'
[22:29]  * thumper chuckles to himself
[22:30] <hazmat> if only there were machines in the gui ;-)
[22:31] <thumper> yeah...
[22:31] <thumper> hazmat: we could reboot services :)
[22:31] <thumper> and it would work as long as the service isn't colocated with the api server :)
[22:31] <hazmat> thumper, ah.. that's no fun.. although the nondeterminism is pretty cool.. i'd prefer rm -Rf /
[22:32] <thumper> hazmat: don't get me wrong, it would reboot
[22:32] <hazmat> the openstack charms w/ ha .. do tons of rebooting.
[23:48] <davecheney> thumper: o/
[23:48] <davecheney> thatnks for the good news on proxy support
[23:49] <thumper> hi davecheney
[23:49] <davecheney> i need that super bad for testing on that platform that we can't talk about
[23:49] <thumper> cool


[13:18] <yowmamasita> hello!
[16:42] <zakame> hi hi
[16:59] <yowmamasita> hello :)
[17:04] <zakame> hehehe
[17:06] <yowmamasita> would really like to attend the release party
[17:06] <yowmamasita> but SW Manila coincides :S
[17:07] <zakame> startup weekend?


[06:52] <ochosi> elfy: hey
[06:54] <Noskcaj> elfy, i talked to the autopilot guys. apparently a lot of other F/OSS uses autopilot, so some might even still be usable by us.
[06:57] <elfy> hi ochosi
[06:58] <elfy> Noskcaj: thanks - what got said would be useful to know, a lot of others might use it but as it stands it fails to even start here
[06:58] <ochosi> elfy: if you could re-test the greeter with greybird from git please
[06:58] <ochosi> elfy: we just pushed some fixes
[06:59] <elfy> ochosi: ok - I'll boot into the machine in a little while and look :)
[06:59] <ochosi> elfy: thanks a lot!
[06:59] <ochosi> elfy: oh, and what did you mean with "top right icons rounded"?
[07:00] <elfy> it's a visual thing I guess - I know that they at the top - they just look really 'square' which they are anyway - perhaps it's the stark difference between the dark panel and the almost white icons
[07:01] <ochosi> elfy: i think you were experiencing theming issues, they should look fine now...
[07:01] <elfy> aah ok - well I'll update it and look shortly
[07:01] <ochosi> thanks!
[07:08] <ochosi> elfy: i'll be back in a bit, gotta run off now
[07:08] <elfy> ok
[07:22] <elfy> ochosi: that appears to be much better :) http://imagebin.org/259138
[07:23] <elfy> now that I actually look in this one at the greeter - the 'icon' is there too - you can safely ignore me :)
[07:53] <elfy> Noskcaj: the autopilot channel doesn't log - so a copy of the logs from when you talked to them would do - thanks
[07:56] <Noskcaj> elfy: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5706048/
[08:00] <elfy> Noskcaj: so that's not where you were "i talked to the autopilot guys. apparently a lot of other F/OSS uses autopilot, so some might even still be usable by us." then
[08:01] <elfy> because that's what I'd like to see :)
[08:22] <Noskcaj> ok, and it seems that no other projects make it easy to find their involvement. you might be better with google, but i found nothing
[08:22] <elfy> ok thanks - I just assumed that you talking to them had something somewhere
[08:57] <ochosi> elfy: ok, yeah that's almost as it should be
[08:58] <ochosi> elfy: but bluesabre decided to break the icon-theming with his last commit ;)
[08:58] <ochosi> elfy: so those will also be fixed soon i guess
[08:58] <elfy> :)
[08:58] <ochosi> happy at least the rest works again
[08:59] <ochosi> bbl
[08:59] <elfy> yep - I didn't think that the idea was to have an unreadable login screen :)
[08:59] <elfy> hf
[08:59] <ochosi> hehe, ty
[09:04] <knome> good day
[09:04] <Noskcaj> evening knome
[09:18] <elfy> Noskcaj: autopilot will work - it's working for me now
[09:19] <Noskcaj> elfy, great to hear.
[09:19] <Noskcaj> raring or saucy?
[09:19] <elfy> saucy
[09:20] <elfy> the source was all fubar - redid the add ppa - updated/upgraded and it worked ;)
[09:20] <Noskcaj> can you link me the ppa? i'll try it on raring tomorrow morning
[09:20] <elfy>  sudo add-apt-repository ppa:autopilot/ppa
[09:20] <elfy>  sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install python-autopilot
[09:21] <Noskcaj> if we can make this thing work for the post-install tests will be a lot easier
[09:22] <knome> we still can't forget manual tests though
[09:23] <Noskcaj> knome, no. but those post install tests take a long time, and they're not run very frequently
[09:24] <knome> what's taking time in them is the hardware testing, which autopilot can't really do..
[09:24] <Noskcaj> knome, ok. offtopic: has there been any discussion on using a magnet link for downloading xubuntu?
[09:24] <knome> very brief.
[09:25] <elfy> bbl
[09:28] <Noskcaj> knome, and?
[09:28] <knome> Noskcaj, and there hasn't been any progress for it
[09:28] <Noskcaj> i can't help but wonder, why still use a file?
[09:28] <knome> Noskcaj, many of our users aren't as tech-savvy as us developers
[09:29] <Noskcaj> knome, no, but with th exception of chrome in ubuntu, a magnet works just as well, and without the semi-confusing download
[09:29] <knome> Noskcaj, so are you saying it works in internet explorer as well?
[09:30] <Noskcaj> knome, i hope so, it's the torrent client that does the work either way.
[09:31] <Noskcaj> so .torrent and magnet link are similar "nerd level"
[09:31] <knome> Noskcaj, i'm not really sure what the benefit of the magnet link would be, if it's simply a link that opens the torrent application?
[09:33] <Noskcaj> how they work: file: link to "trackers", then downloads from a list from the trackers. link: uses lots of confusing algorithms to ignore the need for trackers, so no "middle man" and nothing to host, no download as well. both methods get similar amounts of peers
[09:34] <knome> hosting is not a problem, it's an automatic process that happens with a release
[09:36] <Noskcaj> ok. i can't help but think we should have both then. no more effort for us, we have reliability if the tracker goes down and it's a more "neat" and less confusing way to do this
[09:37] <knome> if the tracker goes down, the world is upside down
[09:38] <knome> Noskcaj, please describe the steps we would need to take, list browsers that have problems with it and send to the mailing list and it can be taken into consideration
[09:38] <knome> Noskcaj, also please think of an argument against this: if the torrent link is confusing, how isn't having two different torrentish links confusing?
[09:40] <Noskcaj> ok, i'll look into it. i have little knowledge of how they are made. if someone is using a torrent client, they no what the link and the file are.
[09:40] <Noskcaj> *know
[09:40] <knome> i'm sure one can't make that assumption.
[09:40] <Noskcaj> most torrent sites use both, some use only the link
[09:40] <Noskcaj> knome, ok, but it's a good generalization
[09:41] <knome> you're saying the same thing in other words. no, i don't think it's a good generalization
[09:42] <Noskcaj> everywhere you can use a torrent client, they use both formats, side by side
[09:44] <knome> are you referring to open source downloads now, or torrent sites that do not care about copyrights?
[09:46] <Noskcaj> all torrent sites outside of ubuntu. even the no piracy sites
[09:47] <knome> ok. please link to some bigger ones that do so in your mail
[09:53] <Noskcaj> knome, i'll make a small personal wiki page, detail everything there
[09:53] <knome> Noskcaj, that's fine
[10:05] <Noskcaj> knome, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Noskcaj/XubuntuMagnetLinks is my "beta", i'll finish it tomorrow
[10:07] <knome> Noskcaj, thanks. can you also send it to the developer mailing list for broader discussion?
[10:07] <Noskcaj> i will when it's finished
[10:08] <knome> thanks
[11:14] <bluesabre> elfy: hopefully, we can get you to this point: http://imagebin.org/259157
[11:15] <elfy> bluesabre: that looks nice :)
[11:16] <elfy> wonder why mine isn't like that - I did the ppa for the greeter and git cloned into /usr/share/themes
[11:16] <bluesabre> yeah, I'm not sure whats up with that
[11:17] <bluesabre> hopefully we can sort it out
[11:17] <ochosi> i think that it's simply not the latest build
[11:17] <elfy> ok
[11:17] <ochosi> (at least that's what i assume)
[11:17] <elfy> but as you know - happy enough to test it for you when you need it :)
[11:17] <bluesabre> absolutely, and thanks!
[11:18] <elfy> and I assume it's nothing silly like me using nouveau on nvidia card
[11:18] <ochosi> i'm also currently using nouveau
[11:18] <elfy> ok
[11:18] <ochosi> but i'm already considering to switch back to nvidia
[11:18] <ochosi> nouveau has weird artifacts on the greeter's bg when switching user
[11:18] <ochosi> and it also means i can't suspend to ram
[11:19] <elfy> well sometimes it works for me -1304 I tried to install nvidia - themes completely 1999  :)
[11:19] <elfy> then in another 1304 it works fine - weird
[11:20] <elfy> but in my opinion the greeter should work with nouveau
[11:20] <ochosi> nah, it shouldn't be that bad
[11:20] <ochosi> it's just some graphical artifacts, not the win98 style
[11:20] <elfy> that's ok then
[11:21] <elfy> probably good if I carry on checking with nouveau then if others are looking at in nvidia
[11:21] <ochosi> but not being able to suspend is important for me, so i'll switch back
[11:22] <elfy> yea - can see that, I can suspend with nouveau
[11:23] <ochosi> i can suspend too, but it doesn't wake up again ;)
[11:23] <elfy> lol
[11:23] <elfy> mind you I've never tried with the laptop as it's battery lasts about 15 minutes ...
[13:40] <nixnine> Hey guys, I'm using ubuntu studio and all of  sudden my disk/partitions have become read only.  I cannot save anything to any.  Can someone help me?
[15:07] <knome> why was that person in #xubuntu-devel?
[15:07] <knome> that makes *no* sense.
[15:08] <knome> did somebody in the ubuntu studio channels point this person here?
[15:11] <holstein> knome: nah.. looks like a standard emergency cross post.. we have something about the xubuntu channel in our topic for "nromal" xfce issues
[15:11] <holstein> normal*
[15:12] <knome> yeah, #xubuntu is totally fine
[15:13] <holstein> knome: its too bad really.. folks dont realize the similarites in the variants
[15:13] <holstein> a simple "read only file system ubuntu" google search would help them a lot
[15:13] <knome> yup.
[15:14] <holstein> mostly, what i feel like i do 98% of the time is properly google things
[15:14] <holstein> knowing what to ask where...
[15:15] <knome> agreed
[15:57] <bluesabre> knome, ochosi, other awesome and skilled translators, some new strings in catfish trunk: https://translations.launchpad.net/catfish-search/trunk
[15:57] <bluesabre> catfish bugs are easy to fix nowadays :)
[16:01] <ochosi> bluesabre: hm, i just translated all missing strings in german (12), but they're still listed in the overview page: https://translations.launchpad.net/catfish-search/trunk
[16:03] <bluesabre> sometimes it takes a little while for launchpad to update
[16:05] <ochosi> alrighty
[16:13] <knome> stupid bluesabre changing strings ;)
[16:13] <bluesabre> nope, didn't change them, forgot to include them ;)
[16:13] <knome> hah.
[16:13] <knome> stupid bluesabre forgotting to include strings
[16:13] <knome> better?
[16:14] <bluesabre> much better!
[16:14] <bluesabre> :(
[16:14] <knome> j/k, i'll go and update.
[16:14] <knome> shouldn't it be "ISO format", not "iso format" ?
[16:15] <bluesabre> probably
[16:15] <bluesabre> want me to change it?
[16:15] <knome> if you want to... :)
[16:15] <knome> are PATH/FILEMANAGER strings?
[16:15] <knome> and WRAPPER
[16:15] <bluesabre> more or less
[16:15] <bluesabre> you can change them as you see fit
[16:15] <knome> there's no way to know that
[16:15] <knome> aha...
[16:16] <knome> so translate?
[16:16] <knome> or not translate
[16:16] <bluesabre> don't translate
[16:16] <bluesabre> one sec
[16:16] <knome> okay
[16:16] <bluesabre> see here:
[16:16] <bluesabre> http://pastebin.com/LWLwHUxX
[16:17] <knome> okay
[16:17] <knome> can you add "context" for those?
[16:17] <knome> or make them look like they are strings?
[16:17] <knome> or sth to tell the translators that they shouldn't translate them
[16:17] <bluesabre> yeah, I'll do that and ISO right now
[16:19] <knome> ok, i'll refrain from editing until you update the translations
[16:23] <elfy> funny that - I was doing the catfish test thing today
[16:23] <bluesabre> knome: updated, should show up in a few minutes
[16:24] <knome> bluesabre, goodie
[16:26] <knome> so WRAPPER is an application?
[16:26] <bluesabre> ochosi: ^ german translation is now outdated
[16:26] <bluesabre> yeah
[16:26] <knome> oki
[16:26] <bluesabre> xdg-open
[16:26] <bluesabre> :)
[16:36] <knome> the finnish translation is done.
[16:36] <bluesabre> yay!
[16:37] <elfy> the finnish translation is finished surely :D
[16:37] <knome> finnished :P
[16:37] <elfy> :)
[16:37] <elfy> cya all tomorrow I hope
[16:38] <bluesabre> seeya elfy
[17:07] <ochosi> bluesabre: meh, already again outdated?
[17:11] <bluesabre> blame knome and his sense of consistency ;)
[17:15] <bluesabre> bbl
[21:46] <Noskcaj> knome, i've sent off the email for a magnet link
[21:47] <knome> i see
[21:47] <knome> i'll get to that tomorrow or so
[23:10] <Unit193> Torrent files are still used and quite useful, not exactly deprecated.  Magnets are quite nice though, even more so in IRC.
[23:43] <knome> Unit193, yep.


[18:44] <phong_> I'm new to submitting bugs at Ubuntu so I would very much appreciate some help.
[18:45] <phong_> I've already submitted at:
[18:45] <phong_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1447632
[18:45] <phong_> But it seems it's not in the correct format (as the bot replied in the comment)
[18:47] <phong_> Can anyone direct me how to submit it - or better - how to solve that one.
[19:21] <bdmurray> phong_: its needs to be marked as affecting a specific package
[19:22] <bdmurray> ah, it looks like you switched it to cifs-utils
[19:23] <phong_> Yes, I added that now as I needed cifs-utils to use cifs mounts.
[19:30] <phong_> I think I'll try to reproduce this bug in some other Linux distro (eg.: CentOS) to see if it's Ubuntu specific.
[19:30] <phong_> But it happens in many (all?) version of Ubuntu (12.04?, 14.04, 15.04)
[19:31] <phong_> Does it mean that if it happens in CentOS, I should submit the bug to Samba (and not Ubuntu)?


[02:08] <kgunn> robert_ancell: i did no problem, thanks!
[02:08] <robert_ancell> kgunn, awesome
[02:42] <duflu> robert_ancell: In case it matters, I'm halfway through a focus handling enhancement in Xmir. Don't release what's there (half done)...
[02:43] <robert_ancell> duflu, ack
[02:43] <duflu> Ta
[11:56] <cppGreen> I was reading over /mir/cppguide/index.html#Friends, in a section it reads - Friend declarations should always be in the private section,...    its does not exactly why this should be the case. C++  mentions that friend enhances encapsulation. friend grants selective access to members, just like protected does. so I am curious as to why?  the declarations should always be in the private section???


[13:23] <jdstrand> joedborg: hey, can you turn off autouploads for winetricks until you request classic in the forum (see your inbox). thanks!
[13:37] <joedborg> Will do when I have my laptop jdstrand
[14:45] <jdstrand> joedborg: thanks
[18:26] <om26er> can I put my snapcraft yaml in a different directory and point `snapcraft` to build using that ?
[18:27] <om26er> anything that's not snap/snapcraft.yaml .snapcraft.yaml or snapcraft.yaml on the root of the project


[01:24] <symptom> hello, can anyone point me towards a good tutorial on how to build drivers for Linux
[01:31] <TheMuso> symptom: What kind of driver?
[01:32] <symptom> something really simple.  Just trying to learn.
[01:37] <TheMuso> symptom: Yes, but drivers for X, and drivers for sound cards for example, are done somewhat differently.
[01:38] <TheMuso> i.e X drivers are in userspace, and sound drivers are in kernelspace.
[02:50] <slangasek> TheMuso: hotkey-setup was already gone from main, I've now purged it from the archive, I suggest you drop the recommends, yes :)
[02:57] <TheMuso> slangasek: Ok will do. I've also been asked by the otehr studio devs to remove empathy from the default install but ship pidgin on the disks, not being installed. That will also be included in the meta upload. If you feel its too late for such changes, it can be reverted.
[03:47] <ScottK> TheMuso: I think it's really up to Ubuntu Studio to decide what it wants to do on that.
[03:51] <TheMuso> ScottK: Right, I was thinking more about how late things are to be changed etc, anyway I'll push the meta once its updated.
[03:51] <ScottK> We haven't started working on final ISOs yet, so I think it's fine.
[03:53] <TheMuso> Right.
[05:34] <ous335> hi i need help with ubuntu, my wireless is not working
[05:37] <lifeless> #ubuntu
[05:39] <ous335> plz help
[05:42] <ScottK> ous335: This isn't a help channel.  Ask in #ubuntu.
[05:43] <ous335> how do i go there
[05:47] <ScottK> The same way you got here, but instead of joining #ubuntu-devel, join #ubuntu
[09:01] <hrickards> Should a bug report be marked as a duplicate if the two errors reported are very similar but not the same and the cause of the error is the same?
[09:03] <joaopinto> hrickards, if the bug causing the message is the same, they are duplicates :)
[09:03] <hrickards> joapinto: Oh yeah. Nice way of putting it. :)
[09:04]  * hrickards feels like an idiot after the way joapinto put it. :(
[11:29] <gizero> In Jaunty you could quicly switch user by selecting the other user's name in the drop-down menu in the top-right corner of the screen. In Karmic you have to choose Switch User... there instead and it brings you to the regular login dialog. This is so much slower; my girlfriend and I constantly switch back and forth between our accounts. Why was this change made?
[11:32] <lifeless> gdm got rewritten
[11:32] <lifeless> the facility to figure out what other users have sessions was broken by that, and has not yet been recreated.
[11:32] <lifeless> there is a bug open on one of the indicator/messaging projects, and it should be fine in lucid
[11:33] <gizero> lifeless, Excellent, nice to know the feature wasn't removed intentionally
[11:35] <gizero> Looks like it's bug 425550
[11:35] <lifeless> gizero: claims to be fixed, are you fully up to date?
[11:39] <gizero> Yeah, I installed the RC yesterday, and installed all updates in Update Manager 15 hours ago
[11:39] <wgrant> lifeless: It was sort of reverted.
[11:39] <wgrant> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~indicator-applet-developers/indicator-session/trunk/revision/47
[11:43] <gizero> wgrant, Shounds like the bug should be reopened then
[11:44] <wgrant> gizero: Probably.
[11:45] <TheMuso> slangasek: Do you have any objection to dropping pt and es langpacks from powerpc Ubuntu CDs to ensure the alternate is not oversized?
[12:05] <cjwatson> TheMuso: dropping langpacks as necessary for size is usually fine
[12:07] <sebner> mighty cjwatson , some friend asked me about grub invaders. Should still be in grub2, right? Not seeing it though
[12:08] <TheMuso> cjwatson: ok
[12:10] <cjwatson> sebner: never heard of it
[12:10] <cjwatson> sebner: if it's some kind of grub extension, I expect that it would require a rewrite to work with grub2
[12:11] <cjwatson> sebner: if it's something that you boot from grub, then it should be reasonably easy to get it to work wiith grub2
[12:13] <sebner> cjwatson: space invaders in grub. I've found an old mail in debian archive about fixing it in grub2 .. from 2007 though
[12:13] <sebner> boot from grub iirc
[12:14] <cjwatson> sebner: afraid I don't know, don't really have time to focus on fixing up games :)
[12:14] <sebner> cjwatson: yeah, really np
[12:16] <sebner> cjwatson: there is a package grub-invaders. Wondering if this was installed default or included in grub some time in the past. Anyways, thx for you help
[12:17] <cjwatson> it was never installed by default
[13:11] <switchgirl> hi in karmic sd cards don't auto mount
[13:12] <switchgirl> anyone working on that?
[13:43] <spaetz_> karmic kernel started oopsing continously now
[13:44] <spaetz_> CRDA: Error: command ['iw', 'reg', 'get'] failed with exit code 1: nl80211 not found.
[15:16] <Kano> cjwatson: why is iso-scan not working with ext4 partitions
[17:29] <Amaranth> anyone else being told they're being removed from ubuntu-devel due to excessive bounces?
[17:29] <Amaranth> I can't believe gmail would be bouncing regular list mail but not the notice of removal...
[17:52] <dtchen> Amaranth: yes, at least two others (maco and me)
[17:53] <maco> oh didnt know you got one too dtchen. why didnt you say so when i mentioned it this morning?
[18:02] <Laney> yeah everyone got one I think
[18:02] <Laney> it sounds like that anyway
[18:17] <jelkner> jono: are you here?
[18:17] <maco> jelkner: hi jeff!
[18:17] <jelkner> maco: hi
[18:18] <jono> jelkner, yeah
[18:18] <jono> :)
[18:18] <jelkner> i have a problem with an unassigned high priority bug that is destroying my life
[18:19] <jelkner> (i exaggerate a little, but not much ;-)
[18:19] <maco> haha
[18:19] <jelkner> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxcb/+bug/419501
[18:19] <jelkner> i kills gasp
[18:20] <jelkner> around which i've built all the python teaching materials i use
[18:20] <jelkner> so i won't be able to run karmic
[18:20] <jelkner> i didn't want to be a pest
[18:21] <jelkner> so since it was a high priority bug i figured i'd just wait
[18:21] <jelkner> but with release this week
[18:21] <jelkner> it doesn't look good for me
[18:21] <jono> jelkner, ahhh thats a shame
[18:21] <jono> looking at the bug now
[18:22] <jelkner> the bug is in debian squeeze also
[18:22] <jelkner> i checked yesterday
[18:23] <jelkner> i'm downloading fedora 12 now to see if it has the same problem
[18:24] <jono> jelkner, what would like me to do to help?
[18:26] <jelkner> jono: explain to me how the bugs get assigned
[18:26] <jelkner> and if there is anyone i could talk to about this
[18:27] <jono> jelkner, it gets assigned to whoever volunteers to fix it
[18:27] <jelkner> ahh
[18:27] <jono> unless a platform manager assigns it to a member of their team
[18:28] <jelkner> can one talk to a platform manager?
[18:28] <jelkner> and make an appeal
[18:30] <jelkner> is there a bounty process or something?
[18:31] <jelkner> i *really* would like to see this fixed
[18:31] <jelkner> and i can't fix it
[18:31] <zooko> jelkner: there is no bounty process, but I guess you could always try offering people money and see if they accept.  :-)
[18:32] <jelkner> i don't even know who to ask
[18:32] <jelkner> zooko: r u interested?
[18:32] <zooko> Your best bet is probably to generate specific, reproducible facts about it, such as whether it also happens in Debian and Fedora, what exact version first introduced it, etc.
[18:32] <zooko> jelkner: sorry, I am not.  I am just trying to help.
[18:32] <jelkner> it has to do with the new x library i believe
[18:33] <jelkner> i've filed bug reports, but they came back as duplicate bugs
[18:33] <jelkner> so i'm perfectly willing to do what you suggest, zooko, i just don't know how
[18:33] <zooko> Yes, filing a bug report is certainly the first step.
[18:34] <jelkner> that's why i'm here
[18:34] <jelkner> been there, done that
[18:34] <jelkner> months ago
[18:34] <zooko> Well, do you know how to compile different versions of the X libs in question?
[18:34] <jelkner> i guess i could
[18:35] <zooko> If, for example, you could identify that version X didn't have this problem and version X+1 did, that would help.
[18:36] <zooko> By the way, I'm not an Ubuntu dev, just a random person hanging out trying to help, but my guess is that it is too late to get this fixed for Karmic.
[18:36] <zooko> Fortunately Karmic isn't the end of the world.
[18:37] <maco> might be SRU-able...
[18:38] <dupondje> hmz, final grub2 came out ...
[18:38] <dupondje> will it get into Karmic ?
[18:39] <maco> jelkner: if you can play around and find out when in the libxcb version history the bug was introduced....
[18:39] <maco> dupondje: grub2 is in karmic...
[18:40] <dupondje> beta4 :)
[18:40] <dupondje> but the final 1.97 came out today
[18:46] <maco> oh
[18:47] <cr3> what's a good format for documenting a project? I have often seen text files under a doc directory in the root of projects, but I'd rather stay away from pure text to allow for greater formatting. so, what is most common? docbook? straight html? latex?
[18:49] <arand> dupondje: at this stage, probably not, unless the bugs it fixes are serious...
[18:50] <GodfatherofEire> Would this be the right channel to make a suggestion to the dev team or should I go to #ubuntu-motu?
[18:52] <GodfatherofEire> specifically for something to keep in mind/think about for lucid.
[18:53] <arand> dupondje: but that is not in any way an official answer, (I'm no dev)
[18:54] <dupondje> :)
[18:54] <dupondje> trying to get grub2 working with dmraid :s
[18:56] <maco> cr3: docbook is common
[18:57] <maco> GodfatherofEire: say what it is and go from there?
[18:57] <maco> GodfatherofEire: or try the ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
[18:58] <GodfatherofEire> maco, it would be with regard to the empathy IM client replacing pidgin, add to that that libempathy is a requirement for the message notification applet.
[18:58] <maco> if youre one of the people upset that pidgin was replaced, its been discussed to death
[18:58] <GodfatherofEire> maco, its not just that, its not ready for full scale deployment
[18:59] <maco> i doubt theyre gonna switch back after one release with it. more likely, submit bugs to empathy upstream and try to get them looked at
[19:00] <GodfatherofEire> If it had everything there, and if the notification applet didnt depend on libempathy (which takes up space, as its basically just the same as pidgin-data)
[19:00] <GodfatherofEire> maco, they already know whats wrong with it (like, no /msg, /join, /quit etc, protocols for IRC)
[19:01] <GodfatherofEire> as well as lack of password support, which pidgin already has
[19:01] <maco> and im sure at least some of that'll be fixed by lucid anyway
[19:01] <GodfatherofEire> like they say, "if it aint broke, dont fix it"
[19:01] <maco> if you know C you could probably help...?
[19:01] <maco> i assume empathy is C...most gnome is
[19:02] <GodfatherofEire> not too familiar with C, although it probably wouldnt take very long to learn
[19:04] <GodfatherofEire> and is it just me or does that also screw up the user switcher (the set status functionality)?
[19:04] <GodfatherofEire> (its removal)
[19:06] <GodfatherofEire> lastly, are you guys ever gonna fix the log out sound, or is it just gonna be one of ubuntu's quirks?
[19:43] <Julien13012> HI Everyone
[19:46] <Julien13012> Do someone know the release day of 9.10 ?
[19:47] <Laney> thursday
[19:47] <Julien13012> 29th ???
[19:48] <dtchen> Julien13012: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule
[19:49] <Julien13012> thanks
[19:58] <cjwatson> dupondje: I'm not planning on putting the final grub 1.97 into karmic. I'd hoped that it would be released a week ago, in which case I'd absolutely have tried, but it's really too late now and I don't think I can justify it
[20:00] <cjwatson> dupondje: it's not going to make any difference to dmraid over 1.97~beta4
[20:00] <dupondje> yea true :)
[20:00] <dupondje> trying to get dmraid & grub2 working atm
[20:00] <dupondje> seems its a no-go :(
[20:01] <cjwatson> that's why the installer defaults to grub legacy for dmraid right now
[20:01] <dtchen> evand: thanks for the mailing list work!
[20:02] <evand> dtchen: elmo did the hard work, but thanks
[20:03] <dupondje> cjwatson: I know :) just like to try :)
[20:03] <dupondje> btw, could you get https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/aptitude/+bug/391035 into Karmic ? its quite annoying bug for me in aptitude
[20:04] <dupondje> but prolly not important enough to get in it anyway :)
[20:05] <cjwatson> that doesn't look release-critical, I'm afraid
[20:06] <cjwatson> and the patch is pretty suspicious, what if somebody has a >400-column terminal?
[20:06] <cjwatson> that should be allocated dynamically rather than statically
[20:07] <dupondje> true
[20:07] <dupondje> tho the bug should still get fixed ;)
[20:08] <cjwatson> I'm certainly not going to last-minute a patch that improperly fixes an issue affecting a small number of users in a way that can easily be worked around - sorry
[20:08] <cjwatson> I suggest looking into dynamic allocation, and getting that sorted out for lucid
[20:09] <dupondje> true :) the patch could been better ;)
[20:09] <dupondje> had Jaunty since Alpha 4
[20:09] <dupondje> Karmic since Alpha 2
[20:10] <dupondje> Lucid since Pre-Alpha ? ;)
[20:32] <ericrw> droid
[20:32] <ericrw> [that should've been, "/join #android".  (this is not the droid I am looking for)]
[20:50] <cjwatson> dupondje: brave, alpha 1 tends to be "the first point at which we could get it to work at all"
[21:31] <Keybuk> cjwatson: I wouldn't even go that far
[21:31] <Keybuk> Alpha 1 (especially this time) is "something booted for someone, ship it!"
[21:36] <didrocks> ScottK: concerning the quickly crash, I'm waiting for pitti's feedback tomorrow on python-distutils-extra to know if he will revert his change
[21:37] <ScottK> didrocks: python-distutils-extra is in Main, so unless this affects a lot of packages, I'd plan on fixing quickly.
[21:38] <didrocks> ScottK: ok, I don't know how to avoid python-distutils-extra moving my .desktop.in file in data/ directory, but I'll try to find a workaround.
[21:38] <ion> keybuk: Any thoughts about bug #458389 vs. bug #215666? :-) I still think usplash could simply disable the CLEAR command when in verbose mode. I don’t see leaving old status messages to the screen with a normal, quiet boot, as a good thing.
[21:40] <Keybuk> ion: didn't you send me patches for those?
[21:40] <Keybuk> that's a good idea, if you haven't, send me a patch! :)
[21:40] <Keybuk> I'll do the pending usplash and mountall bits tomorrrow
[21:40] <Keybuk> (or when I get out of the bath in a bit :p)
[21:41] <ScottK> didrocks: Universe has a later cutoff than Main, so even if pitti does change python-distutils-extra back, we'd have time to revert any quickly fix you might come up with, so I'd say please go ahead if you figure it out.
[21:41] <ion> keybuk: Kees’ changes are kind of conflicting with my patches. My commits were made before those changes; they didn’t take the “stuff cleared from the screen when in verbose mode” issue into account at all.
[21:41] <Keybuk> ion: if you think your patches are better, I can review them and work out which to take :p
[21:42] <Keybuk> I like your idea that CLEAR just doesn't work on verbose - it makes an amount of sense
[21:42] <Keybuk> or maybe works more like the console?
[21:42] <Keybuk> where we don't clear, but we don't repeat either?
[21:42] <didrocks> ScottK: ok. I'll try some stuff (just going to bed and think about it first ;)) and keep you in touch.
[21:42] <ion> keybuk: In the bug comments, Kees disagrees with my idea that CLEAR could be disabled in verbose mode.
[21:44] <ScottK> didrocks: OK  Have a good night.
[21:44] <Keybuk> ion: Kees may not be right ;)
[21:45] <Keybuk> if you can give me a patch, I'll have a think
[21:45]  * Keybuk bbl
[21:45] <ion> keybuk: I’ll do that.
[22:06] <EagleScreen> dkms is unable to install bcmwl kernel module in 9.10
[22:09] <ScottK> EagleScreen: Not true.  I did it on Tuesday.
[22:09] <EagleScreen> it cannot do it now
[22:09] <EagleScreen> i have installed Kubuntu right now with alternate CD
[22:10] <EagleScreen> how can I find out why dkms cannot install the module?
[22:10] <EagleScreen> I have installed the package directly, not using jockey
[22:11] <EagleScreen> there is an error when dkms tries to install the module
[22:11] <Keybuk> wow
[22:12] <Keybuk> I'm glad we left the back door in karmic, so I can read your screen and see that error
[22:12] <Keybuk> it totally helps
[22:12] <Keybuk> otherwise we wouldn't have a clue what was wrong, and wouldn't be able to help

[22:12] <azeem> by the time you wrote all this, you could've fixed it already!
[22:13] <Keybuk> azeem: we secretly have fixed it, we're just not realising the fix because we're mean :p
[22:14] <EagleScreen> this is the error in terminal http://pastebin.ca/1643123
[22:14] <Keybuk> EagleScreen: ok, I have to be fair; that is the world's most useless error
[22:15] <Keybuk> is there a /var/log/dkms or something similar?
[22:15] <EagleScreen> yes this is /var/log/dkms_autoinstaller: http://pastebin.ca/1643124
[22:15] <EagleScreen> not much neither
[22:15] <Keybuk> EagleScreen: ok, now look in /var/log/dmesg
[22:15] <Keybuk> can you pastebin that too?
[22:15] <ScottK> Also in fairness I didn't use jockey either.
[22:16] <EagleScreen> dmesg: http://pastebin.ca/1643125
[22:16] <EagleScreen> (var7log/dmesg)
[22:16] <ScottK> My swag is since he's using Kubuntu, there's no policykit integration and some piece of jockey lacks some permission it needs
[22:17] <EagleScreen> ok, I think i have found the problem
[22:17] <EagleScreen> buid-essential is not installed
[22:18] <EagleScreen> shouldn't dkms or dkms packages depend on it?
[22:18] <Keybuk> yeah, that's arguably a bug
[22:18] <Keybuk> Depends: module-init-tools, gcc, make | build-essential | dpkg-dev
[22:18] <Keybuk> so if you had make or dpkg-dev already installed, it wouldn't drag in b-e
[22:22] <EagleScreen> make and gcc are installed
[22:23] <Keybuk> yeah that'd be why then
[22:23] <Keybuk> I'd file a bug about that
[22:23] <Keybuk> *and* I'd file a bug that "fail" is the most it can manage for an error
[22:25] <EagleScreen> thanks a lot
[22:28] <azeem> EagleScreen: I think that was an encouragement that *you* should file those bugs
[22:30] <EagleScreen> yes
[22:44] <ion> keybuk: Ok, pushed to https://code.launchpad.net/~ion/usplash/karmic and https://code.launchpad.net/~ion/ubuntu/karmic/mountall/karmic
[22:45] <ion> keybuk: The mountall branch also contains the try_mounts fix.
[22:45] <Keybuk> ion: I see -r334 and -r145
[22:46] <Keybuk> is that right
[22:46] <Keybuk> ?
[22:46] <ion> keybuk: Yes, the latest commit messages should be ‘Undo recent CLEAR changes...’ for mountall and ‘Reverse the ignore logic...’ for usplash.
[22:47] <Keybuk> ok
[22:49] <Keybuk> hmm
[22:49] <Keybuk> *thinks about the usplash patch*
[22:49] <Keybuk> CLEAR should certainly work when !verbose
[22:50] <ion> And when it’s verbose, multiple clients may be outputting text (say, sysvrc scripts and mountall), and either might accidentally CLEAR something the other one wanted to show.
[22:50] <Keybuk> yeah, but that's just a usplash design flaw
[22:51] <ion> which can be worked around for karmic with a single ‘!’ removal. ;-)
[22:52] <Keybuk> yeah but it's wrong for the fsck case
[22:52] <Keybuk> you'd get scrolling progress text that's ugrly
[22:53] <Keybuk> I think kees's patch is part right, and yours is too
[22:53] <Keybuk> we should only display the bored text once, without a CLEAR, and not update it once a second (unless maybe things change?)
[22:53] <Keybuk> but usplash should always honour CLEAR
[22:53] <Keybuk> that way the only time it is used is when an fsck is happening, to keep it all at the same point on the screen
[22:53] <Keybuk> does that make sense?
[22:55] <ion> Yeah, that should work. I was just a bit reluctant to change the progress display logic that much this near to release, thinking the usplash workaround would be good enough for now.
[22:55] <Keybuk> yeah, I just don't like *inverting* logic right before release ;)
[22:55] <Keybuk> invertion leads to surprises
[22:55] <Keybuk> at least enabling something doesn't so much
[22:55] <ion> True
[22:58] <ion> In the surprise case, that would still only lead to text being left on the screen.