[15:00] <barry> #startmeeting
[15:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 21 15:00:26 2013 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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[15:00] <barry> !dmb-ping
[15:00] <barry> welcome to this week's ubuntu developer membership board meeting
[15:00]  * Laney waves
[15:01] <barry> stgraber: will be along in a while
[15:01] <barry> micahg-work: hi
[15:02] <barry> we can wait another couple of minutes for bdrung, ScottK, and tumbleweed
[15:02] <tumbleweed> o/
[15:04] <barry> i guess we'll start
[15:04] <barry> #topic Review of previous action items
[15:04] <barry>
[15:05]  * stgraber waves
[15:05] <barry> is there anything we need to review?
[15:05] <barry> #topic Package Sets
[15:06] <barry>
[15:06] <barry> no package sets today
[15:06] <barry> #topic PerPackageUploader Applications
[15:06] <barry> utlemming does not appear to be online :(
[15:07] <barry> let's skip ahead and see if he shows up
[15:07] <Laney> doh
[15:07] <barry> #topic MOTU Applications
[15:07] <barry> none
[15:08] <barry> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
[15:08] <barry> none today
[15:08] <barry> #topic Should we change UTC meeting time when the DST-ending madness begins?
[15:08] <barry> any objections to taking this one to the mailing list?
[15:09] <tumbleweed> barry loves noop meetings
[15:09] <barry> tumbleweed: almost better than meetings i miss :)
[15:09] <tumbleweed> no objection, but generally, if we want to actually make a decision, this is the place to do it
[15:09] <micahg-work> sounds good to me
[15:10] <Laney> Well
[15:10] <barry> tumbleweed: in that case.  i personally have no problem with keeping it at 1500 utc.  i suspect stgraber and ScottK won't mind either
[15:10] <Laney> Aren't the DST changes happening before the next meeting?
[15:10] <barry> Laney: in the NA, yes
[15:11]  * ScottK wave.
[15:11] <barry> micahg-work: i think you are the westish among us, so maybe it affects you most?
[15:11]  * ScottK is good with whatever.
[15:11] <barry> tumbleweed, Laney, bdrung any preferences?
[15:12] <Laney> What is the proposal?
[15:12]  * tumbleweed doesn't mind either way
[15:12] <Laney> 1500 is fine
[15:12] <barry> Laney: keep dmb at 1500utc or switch it to Something Else
[15:12] <barry> (and 1900utc)
[15:13] <barry> micahg-work: any objections then to keeping 1500utc and 1900utc?
[15:14] <micahg-work> I have an issue with 15:00, I'll miss the meeting most likely
[15:15] <micahg-work> well, maybe I can attend from my phone
[15:15] <barry> micahg-work: why don't we try it and if it's a real hardship, we can move it?
[15:15] <micahg-work> ok
[15:15] <barry> thanks
[15:15] <Laney> tether it :-)
[15:15] <barry> well, that about does it, and no utlemming, so i will send an email and push him back to the next meeting
[15:16] <barry> #topic aob
[15:16] <barry> any other business before we adjourn?
[15:16]  * stgraber doesn't have anything
[15:16] <Laney> nope
[15:16] <barry> okay then..
[15:17] <barry> #endmeeting
[15:17] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 21 15:17:14 2013 UTC.
[15:17] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-15.00.moin.txt
[15:17] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-15.00.html
[15:17] <barry> thanks! :)
[15:17] <stgraber> thanks!
[15:22] <micahg-work> thanks barry
[16:30] <jdstrand> hi!
[16:31] <chrisccoulson> hi
[16:31] <mdeslaur> \o
[16:31] <mdeslaur> o/
[16:31] <jdstrand> #startmeeting
[16:31] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 21 16:31:38 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:31] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[16:31] <jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
[16:31] <jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
[16:31] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
[16:31] <jjohansen> \o
[16:31] <jdstrand> Ubuntu 13.10 is released. Thanks to everyone who contributed to Ubuntu security for the Saucy Salamander!
[16:32] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
[16:32] <jdstrand> I'll go first
[16:32] <jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
[16:32] <jdstrand> I'll be attending a sprint next week and need to prepare for it
[16:32] <jdstrand> part of that is preliminary planning for 14.04 and 14.10
[16:33] <jdstrand> I'll also patch pilot
[16:33] <jdstrand> and have several pending updates I am working on
[16:33] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
[16:33] <mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
[16:33] <mdeslaur> am currently publishing eglibc updates
[16:33] <mdeslaur> and will work on some other things before the sprint I'm attending next week
[16:33] <mdeslaur> that's it form me
[16:33] <mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
[16:34] <sbeattie> I'm on apparmor this week
[16:34] <sbeattie> I'm still working on IPC tests amongst other things there
[16:34] <sbeattie> I need to finish up the new release tasks
[16:35] <sbeattie> I suspect I'll be discussion 14.04 and 14.10 plans
[16:35] <sbeattie> that's it for me; tyhicks, you're up
[16:36] <tyhicks> I'm in the middle of looking into how kdbus can work for AppArmor and other LSMs, in general
[16:36] <tyhicks> I need a little more time with that
[16:36] <tyhicks> I have a small amount of eCryptfs maintainership stuff that I need to catch up on
[16:36] <tyhicks> and I hope to pitch in on the IPC work
[16:37] <tyhicks> that's it for me
[16:37] <tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
[16:38] <jjohansen> I will be working on apparmor ipc again this week, I'll be coordinating with tyhicks and sbeattie. I am sure we will do a little preplanning for 14.04/14.10 and I also have to push up the patches I have queue for 3.13
[16:39] <jjohansen> I think that is it for me, sarnold your up
[16:40] <sarnold> I have one more MIR to finish -- I didn't get it done in time for including in images :( but I've made a lot of progress on it, and I'd like to finish it off before moving on
[16:40] <mdeslaur> sarnold: any idea when that'll be?
[16:40] <mdeslaur> just curious
[16:41] <sarnold> mdeslaur: I expect it by the end of the day.
[16:41] <mdeslaur> ok, cool
[16:41] <sarnold> mdeslaur: most of the code quality is quite good, I just need to determine if the authentication on the magic backdoor method is strong enough
[16:42] <mdeslaur> haha, that doesn't sound promising
[16:42] <sbeattie> hah
[16:42] <sarnold> since the magic backdoor is in vmware's hypervisors, I don't have any visibility on how well they filter it out from network traffic that might be used by other VMs or hosts or other hosts on the network, so I'd like to make sure the guests look defensive enough on their own without any help from the hypervisor.
[16:42] <mdeslaur> Now with Magic Backdoor(tm) technology!
[16:43] <sarnold> ITYM "lower costs of maintenance" or something. hehe. :)
[16:43] <mdeslaur> hehe
[16:43] <sarnold> anyway, I expect to pick up an update or two this week, depending upon which ones specifically. :) \o/
[16:43] <mdeslaur> w00t! :P
[16:43] <sarnold> yeah, it's about time you had some help. :)
[16:43] <sarnold> oof :)
[16:44] <sarnold> that's me :) chrisccoulson, your turn
[16:44] <mdeslaur> hehe
[16:44] <chuck_> gna!
[16:44] <chrisccoulson> this week, i'm working on bug 1214049
[16:45] <chrisccoulson> it turns out that this is required to make viewport mode work (which is required for a useful mobile browser), as page scaling is completely broken in the non-accelerated rendering path
[16:45] <mdeslaur> cool
[16:46] <chrisccoulson> but once that's done, we're a step closer to being able to start migrating the touch browser across
[16:46] <mdeslaur> oh, sweet
[16:46] <jdstrand> chrisccoulson: did you have a chance to look at packaging at all yet?
[16:46] <chrisccoulson> i plan to spend a day getting all of the firefox builds working again this week too, as they've been neglected a bit recently
[16:46] <chrisccoulson> and there's a release next week :)
[16:46] <chrisccoulson> jdstrand, not yet. i can do that after this bug though
[16:47] <jdstrand> chrisccoulson: cool-- I'm going to try to drum up some help for you next week, and I think that might be helpful
[16:47] <chrisccoulson> thanks
[16:47] <jdstrand> chrisccoulson: any new on chromium-browser?
[16:47] <jdstrand> news*
[16:48] <chrisccoulson> heh, not yet. i'll ping chad again in a bit
[16:48] <jdstrand> thanks
[16:50] <jdstrand> chrisccoulson: did you have anything else to report?
[16:50] <chrisccoulson> jdstrand, oh, sorry. no, i'm done :)
[16:50] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
[16:50] <jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
[16:50] <jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
[16:50] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-actionmailer-3.2.html
[16:50] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/exif.html
[16:50] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/geshi.html
[16:50] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/squidclamav.html
[16:50] <jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tpp.html
[16:50] <jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
[16:51] <jdstrand> fyi, I blogged about some of the good work you guys did in 13.10
[16:51] <jdstrand> which included a light primer on dbus policy
[16:52] <jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
[16:52] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: nice blog post!
[16:52] <jdstrand> thanks!
[16:53] <jdstrand> (the blog post as about application confinement only)
[16:53] <jdstrand> if people haven't read chrisccoulson's post on oxide, it is excellent: http://www.chriscoulson.me.uk/blog/?p=196
[16:54] <mdeslaur> yes, nice blog post chrisccoulson!
[16:55] <chrisccoulson> heh :)
[16:55] <chrisccoulson> thanks
[16:59] <jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: thanks!
[16:59] <jdstrand> #endmeeting
[16:59] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 21 16:59:21 2013 UTC.
[16:59] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-16.31.moin.txt
[16:59] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-16.31.html
[16:59] <sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
[16:59] <jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
[16:59] <mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
[17:00] <sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
[18:44] <bkerensa> =o
[19:00] <pleia2> #startmeeting
[19:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Oct 21 19:01:06 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[19:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[19:01] <bkerensa> \o/
[19:01] <pleia2> #chair dsmythies godbyk bkerensa
[19:01] <meetingology> Current chairs: bkerensa dsmythies godbyk pleia2
[19:01] <pleia2> hi everyone :)
[19:01] <pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
[19:01] <slickymaster> hi pleia2 o/
[19:01] <pleia2> our meeing agenda
[19:01] <pleia2> who all is here for the Doc Team meeting?
[19:02] <slickymaster> o/
[19:02]  * godbyk is here.
[19:02]  * slickymaster slaso
[19:02] <slickymaster> also
[19:02] <pmatulis_> o/
[19:02] <bkerensa> :D
[19:02] <dsmythies> Hi, Doug S. here for meeting
[19:02] <pleia2> while we say some hellos, I also wanted to get some resources+terms squared away so we know what we're all talking about
[19:03] <phillw> o/
[19:03] <pleia2> Desktop and Server docs: These are centrally managed by the core contributors team, packaged and shipped in the ubuntu repositories and also available at help.ubuntu.com
[19:04] <pleia2> Documentation wiki: This is all the documentation managed under help.ubuntu.com/community/ - does not strictly freeze or release, maintained by anyone who has a wiki account + a handful of wiki admins
[19:04] <phillw> sorry, just trying to sort a fail for gnome-keyring-ssh.desktop
[19:04] <dsmythies> Correction: Serverguide is not packaged or shipped
[19:04] <pleia2> dsmythies: doh!
[19:04] <pleia2> dsmythies: just published on help.ubuntu.com ?
[19:05] <dsmythies> yes
[19:05] <pleia2> ok, thanks
[19:05] <pleia2> Teams wiki: This is a wiki for teams to share team details, meetings, notes, plans at wiki.ubuntu.com
[19:05] <pleia2> Ubuntu Manual: Separate team from us (though this may change some day! and there is team membership overlap) and not covered in this meeting
[19:06] <pleia2> I think that's it
[19:06] <pleia2> time to start with meeting things :)
[19:06] <pleia2> #topic Assess the Ubuntu 13.10 documentation cycle
[19:06] <pleia2> #subtopic What did we do well?
[19:06] <pleia2> any comments?
[19:07] <pleia2> I'm happy that we got the contribution docs up to date and were able to make a solid call for contributors with some steps about how they could review the docs and optionally contribute patches
[19:07] <dsmythies> We had good spelling and grammer checking by several.
[19:08] <godbyk> I think our updated 'how to contribute to the system docs' guide is helpful. I look forward to ensuring the rest of our (internal) documentation is up to date.
[19:08] <godbyk> We have had people filing bugs that are helpful.
[19:08] <bkerensa> We refreshed quite a bit of doc and got the how to contribute out the door
[19:08] <godbyk> I think we met all of our deadlines this cycle (docs/string freeze, package deadline, etc.).
[19:09] <bkerensa> I think the fact that we functioned as a team and had enough contributors to call ourselves a team versus just one person doing the work full time (jbicha) was good to see
[19:09] <godbyk> We didn't get all of the docs updated, but we tackled the majority of them.
[19:09] <pleia2> bkerensa: +1
[19:09] <godbyk> bkerensa: I definitely agree with that.
[19:09] <phillw> I was deeply heartened to see discussions on the ML. I does bode well for 14.04
[19:09] <phillw> *it*
[19:09] <pleia2> #subtopic What didn't go well?
[19:10] <godbyk> This cycle we were hampered by being so out of date to start with. We had a lot of catching up to do.
[19:10] <pleia2> I think we were still suffering from overwhelmingness early on which led to early confusion and frustration to contributors, but I'm pretty sure that was just growing pains and we're doing better now, and well set up for next cycle
[19:10] <phillw> there is still uncertaincy of what tools we use for which projects.
[19:10] <dsmythies> We did not have enough people actually using a 13.10 machine to compare the help docs to.
[19:10] <godbyk> I spent most of my time just merging upstream GNOME docs into our documentation.  There are still a fair number of pages that need merging/updating.
[19:11] <bkerensa> I think the confusion over translations was not exactly great but this is something we can overcome in 14.04
[19:11] <pleia2> dsmythies: good observation, I think that's a solid thing we can improve upon
[19:12]  * bkerensa is already running 14.04 :)
[19:12] <godbyk> Going forward, I think we'll be better off as we can start work much earlier in the cycle.
[19:12] <pleia2> bkerensa: yeah, I think we knew we'd have some technical process hiccups, hopefully our notes are good enough for next time around :)
[19:12] <pleia2> godbyk: +1
[19:12] <godbyk> We got off to a late start for 13.10 as we had to figure out how to do everything. :)
[19:12] <dsmythies> I did not know how to help Kevin with the upstream GNOME stuff
[19:13] <pmatulis_> this cycle was one of the worst for the server guide in terms of content contribution
[19:13] <godbyk> dsmythies: It's a fairly manual process. Visually diffing our docs and GNOME docs and merging where it seems appropriate.
[19:13] <pleia2> #subtopic How can we improve?
[19:13] <eagles0513875_> sorry im late
[19:13] <godbyk> pmatulis_: Lack of contributors or lack of quality of contributions?
[19:13] <pleia2> (we seem to be moving into this topic)
[19:13] <pmatulis_> godbyk: both
[19:14] <eagles0513875_> pleia2: i do have a way we can potentially make joining teams a bit easier as well as versioning of documentation
[19:14] <eagles0513875_> but it will require some work and it beats reinventing the wheel
[19:14] <bkerensa> I think peer approval for merges would be nice it just lends extra eyes to pushes so if a mistake is made by a contributor it is not overlooked and does not have to be fixed with another push or even worse a SRU after release
[19:14] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: we're reviewing the good, bad and ugly of the 13.04 release cycle, perhaps we can wait on your comments on this?
[19:15] <pleia2> so I think for both server and desktop it would be very useful to have a schedule for "call for contributions" with specific instructions on how to help
[19:15] <godbyk> I think we should start our work much earlier. For example, we can finish merging upstream GNOME docs for trusty today. Then we can go back and review the docs to bring them up to date for 13.10 at least.
[19:15] <eagles0513875_> sure i wasnt part of 13.04 documentation sadly so i will be quiet please ping me ill be here
[19:15] <pleia2> I think a lot of folks on the mailing list simply weren't aware that the server guide needed help
[19:15] <eagles0513875_> pleia2:may i make a comment in general though between community docs vs official docs
[19:15] <pleia2> (I was kind of tunnel visioned on desktop this cycle)
[19:16] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: please wait until later in the meeting, we want to keep this on topic :)
[19:16] <pleia2> community vs official is a big discussion
[19:16] <godbyk> pleia2: True. I tended to leave the serverguide stuff to Doug. He seemed pretty quick at jumping on bugs and the like.
[19:16] <bkerensa> I think a weekly status e-mail being sent to mailing list with outstanding bugs and merge proposals (see peer review suggestion above) should be sent out so everyone is abreast of work to be done
[19:16] <godbyk> And someone dsmythies also managed to make huge contributions to the desktop docs, too.
[19:16] <pleia2> yeah, dsmythies was very busy :)
[19:17] <bkerensa> monthly meetings for the first part of the cycle and then weekly meetings for the last month until release
[19:17] <pleia2> bkerensa: maybe every other week? but yeah, that'd be great, I can help out there
[19:17] <bkerensa> sure
[19:17] <dsmythies> I think we were all busy.
[19:17] <bkerensa> indeed
[19:17] <bkerensa> if we break the tasks up
[19:17] <bkerensa> it would be easier
[19:18] <pleia2> #subtopic What should we do differently for 14.04?
[19:18] <pleia2> I guess we're sort of talking about this now too :)
[19:18] <bkerensa> one week doug does status e-mail, next kevin, then me, then pleia2
[19:18] <godbyk> bkerensa: +1. I think knowing who's taking responsibility for what would be helpful.
[19:18] <bkerensa> one week kevin does merge proposal reviews then me, and so on
[19:18] <pleia2> I don't know that we have to be so formal about MPs
[19:18] <bkerensa> we can track the assignments on a wiki page
[19:18] <pleia2> unless it becomes a problem (I don't think it was last cycle)
[19:19] <godbyk> The merge proposals that I've reviewed have tended to be pretty short and simple to review.
[19:19] <dsmythies> The serverguide wiki page for tasks is working very well.
[19:19] <pleia2> dsmythies: link?
[19:19] <bkerensa> pleia2: it is not a necessity since were not a development team but it isnt something every other official team including Juju Docs does
[19:19] <bkerensa> were the only team that does not do it
[19:19] <pleia2> bkerensa: well we don't have paid employees who are reportable to a boss who tracks such things :)
[19:20] <dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
[19:20] <pleia2> ah yes
[19:20] <godbyk> bkerensa: The manual team doesn't use MPs, either. In fact, anyone can join the team and start committing to the repository immediately.
[19:20] <godbyk> bkerensa: So far we haven't had any issues with vandalism. Occasionally someone breaks the build, but it's always been an easy fix.
[19:21] <pleia2> interesting
[19:21] <bkerensa> godbyk: Yeah but the manual team is also not an official Ubuntu project ;)
[19:21] <bkerensa> thats the big difference
[19:21] <godbyk> bkerensa: A fair point.
[19:21] <pleia2> ok, I think we have some good ideas here
[19:21] <godbyk> bkerensa: What's the benefit of using MPs?
[19:21] <bkerensa> godbyk: Ensure quality
[19:21] <pleia2> also making an effort to comb through the wiki to find out what else we need to update would be good
[19:22] <eagles0513875_> brb
[19:22] <godbyk> Something else that we should try to assess: are there  *new* documentation pages that should be written that don't exist?
[19:22] <pleia2> I know phillw is still confused about some of the tooling between flavors, and if he's confused than I'm sure other are :) so I think it would be great to get a page together linking to what each uses
[19:22] <godbyk> So far we've been concerned only with updating existing pages.
[19:22] <dsmythies> In the next cycle, we would hope that more people will use the new getting started page and contribute via MP, because they are not doc-committers
[19:22] <bkerensa> godbyk: surely there are lots.... jbicha and I had discussed this a few cycles back
[19:22] <godbyk> Are there obsolete pages we need to delete?  New pages we need to create?
[19:22] <bkerensa> Privacy needs a page
[19:22] <bkerensa> there are lots of things that do
[19:23] <dsmythies> I put a few "missing" page notes on the google list.
[19:23] <pleia2> dsmythies: nice
[19:23] <bkerensa> dsmythies: excellent
[19:23] <pleia2> any other thoughs before we move off from this topic?
[19:23] <godbyk> pleia2: Agreed. I think a general cleanup of the ubuntu-docs wiki pages would be helpful. Section off the different subprojects to clarify what pages refer to what.
[19:24]  * pleia2 nods
[19:24] <pleia2> in all I think we did pretty awesomely this cycle all things considered, so good work everyone :)
[19:24] <pleia2> #topic Adding classroom sessions for wiki / docs
[19:25] <pleia2> I always love classroom sessions :)
[19:25] <pleia2> who added this? any specific comments?
[19:26] <godbyk> I'm not sure who added it, but I like the idea.
[19:26]  * slickymaster thinks that perhaps phillw
[19:26] <godbyk> It's a great way to introduce people to the docs projects and to reduce the barrier to entry and help with the learning curve.
[19:26] <bkerensa> probably phillw
[19:26] <pleia2> the classroom schedule has been pretty sparse lately, so whenever anyone wants to host one, just let me know (or drop by #ubuntu-classroom-backstage)
[19:26] <bkerensa> good good
[19:27] <pleia2> there was also talk of doing a "docs day" or tacking it on to something like Open Week if that's done again
[19:27] <pleia2> maybe take this item to the mailing list so we can brainstorm session ideas and instructors
[19:27] <godbyk> pleia2: good idea.
[19:27] <pleia2> #action pleia2 to email list re: classroom sessions
[19:27] <meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to email list re: classroom sessions
[19:27] <pleia2> #topic Collaboration opportunities between documentation projects
[19:28] <pleia2> so I think this was primarily about collaboration with the manual project
[19:28] <godbyk> I think the manual project would be happy to collaborate with the docs projects.
[19:29] <godbyk> I don't think we can simply copy and paste text from one to another as the writing styles differ, but I think that we can definitely help each other out.
[19:29]  * pleia2 nods
[19:29] <godbyk> For example, we all need to keep track of what docs need to be updated each cycle.
[19:29] <godbyk> There's no reason we can't share our findings there.
[19:29] <pleia2> +1
[19:30] <godbyk> If one team discovers that Application X has changed its UI or somesuch, then they can share that with the other docs teams.
[19:30] <pleia2> I think that's a great way to start
[19:30] <godbyk> There's also a lot of general discussion that can be shared among the docs teams, too.
[19:31] <pleia2> I'm subscribed to both mailing lists, but unfortunately haven't had a look at the manual in a couple cycles
[19:31] <godbyk> How to improve our technical writing, establishing canonical names for UI elements, and so forth.
[19:31] <pleia2> yeah, it would be nice to merge our style guidelines
[19:31] <slickymaster> +1
[19:32] <godbyk> Yes, many of the style guidelines should be identical across the docs projects.
[19:32] <pleia2> so maybe we start with those, propose to the manual team a shared wiki/document/whatever for "what's new" then maybe someone can compare our style guidelines and start a dialog there
[19:32] <pleia2> godbyk: care to take on the "what's new" proposal?
[19:32] <godbyk> And the closer they're in line with the GNOME docs style guide, the easier it'll be to merge in GNOME docs.
[19:32] <godbyk> pleia2: Sure!
[19:33] <phillw> I know that the issue of docs and manual does cause issues; I also know we will not agree upon an common system. Which is somewhat frustrating :) If others would assist on classroom sessions for docs / manual; I'm more than happy to do wiki as either classroom or 1-2-1 sessions.
[19:33] <pleia2> #action godbyk to propose sharing what's new collaborative docs with manual team
[19:33] <meetingology> ACTION: godbyk to propose sharing what's new collaborative docs with manual team
[19:34] <dsmythies> I am not familiar with xubuntu. is there any overlap between ubuntu and xubuntu?
[19:34] <phillw> for people running the release+1`I'll also be happy to assist as a tester :)
[19:34] <godbyk> One of the issues I've heard raised about the manual/docs teams is that there's a fear that having two teams reduces the number of contributors to each team.
[19:34] <pleia2> anyone want to take an action item for reviewing the style guidelines for both teams? I'm thinking review, report findings and then approach both teams to discuss differences and merging them
[19:34] <godbyk> I'm not sure that's actually the case. If it were, I'd expect to see more overlap in the team membership.
[19:35] <phillw> dsmythies: we all are from the same family, whilst our DE's are differebt, our core is the same.
[19:35] <godbyk> For the most part, the manual's style guide should be identical to the Ubuntu docs style guide (and GNOME docs style guide) except for formatting information.
[19:35] <pleia2> dsmythies: the xubuntu documentation is in docbook and completely different than ubuntu's, maintained by xubuntu folks (including me)
[19:35] <godbyk> You can find the manual's style guide at <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>.
[19:37] <bkerensa> I have to run
[19:37] <godbyk> Okay. Thanks for coming, bkerensa!
[19:38] <eagles0513875_> im back all
[19:39] <godbyk> Welcome back, eagles0513875_.  We were just discussing collaboration opportunities between documentation projects.
[19:39] <eagles0513875_> thanks for the update
[19:39] <eagles0513875_> that is essential
[19:39] <pleia2> ok, I think we have a good plan here
[19:39] <eagles0513875_> i can point out one major flaw between community vs official documentatino
[19:39] <pleia2> I can look at the style guides and report back if needed
[19:40] <pleia2> #topic Trusty (14.04) DeskTop help series/branch now online
[19:40] <pleia2> hooray \o/
[19:40] <pleia2> #subtopic How can we start working on ubuntu-docs for 14.04?
[19:40] <godbyk> I created a new branch and series for trusty. If anyone notices anything wrong with how I have it set up, please let me know. (It's my first time doing so for the ubuntu-docs project.)
[19:41] <dsmythies> Suggest conintued use of: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsSw0cKYcffNdFlFakF5M0VjR002UEVvakVPZGpydHc#gid=0
[19:41] <godbyk> I'd like to finish merging in the GNOME docs that I didn't get to for 13.10.
[19:41] <dsmythies> Kevin: I had a good look at the setup and didn't see anything wrong.
[19:41] <eagles0513875_> what is the advantage of using bzr instead of proper document management system to manage document versions
[19:41] <godbyk> Then we can tackle bugs that have been filed against 13.10 and any bugs filed against earlier versions that we didn't get around to tafixing.
[19:41] <godbyk> fixing, rather.
[19:42] <godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, great. Thanks!
[19:42] <pleia2> should we send a mail to the list reminding folks how to contribute now that it's open?
[19:42] <pleia2> beyond the branch command :)
[19:42] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: We use bzr for the system docs because we're using the Mallard markup language. I'm not aware of any online editors for Mallard at the moment.
[19:42] <pleia2> I can follow up with godbyk's email with some more exact instructions to help folks out
[19:43] <godbyk> pleia2: Yeah.  A quick, one-page 'here's how to contribute' and 'here's what we need your help with' guide would be helpful.
[19:43] <pleia2> #action pleia2 to follow up on list re: quick get involved for trusty
[19:43] <meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to follow up on list re: quick get involved for trusty
[19:44] <godbyk> dsmythies: We should also sort out the GNOME Shell/Unity platform-detection issues with Mallard, too.
[19:45] <eagles0513875_> pleia2: can i bring up another rather heated topic here
[19:45] <dsmythies> Yes, I think it is important. I did not realize how the issue upsets translators.
[19:45] <eagles0513875_> which i can back up with examples
[19:45] <godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, I didn't either.
[19:45] <pleia2> ok, I think that's good for how to get involved
[19:45] <pleia2> #topic Any other business
[19:45] <eagles0513875_> pleia2:
[19:45] <eagles0513875_> 2 things
[19:45] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: go ahead now (next time please go ahead and add your item to the agenda so we make sure we get to it and it's on the schedule :))
[19:46] <eagles0513875_> 1) how can we ensure that there arent any discrepencies between community and official documentation
[19:46] <phillw> pleia2: feel free to ask, I did the re-write of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities it was a major roject; but I do feel we need it.
[19:46] <phillw> *project*
[19:46] <eagles0513875_> if you look at the community versions of dovecot and postfix and compare to the official 12.04 server guide for instance
[19:46] <eagles0513875_> they are two different things all together
[19:46] <pleia2> so I think the key here will be leveraging our bug reporting system to correct these issues
[19:46] <godbyk> pleia2: +1
[19:47] <eagles0513875_> 2) i have been looking into the Alfresco document management  and its very extensible as well as very powerful for versioning of documents as well as images
[19:47] <eagles0513875_> it has a built in wiki as well as bug tracker for each project
[19:47] <pleia2> no one has looked at them for a long time, once we've got bugs in place we can start working to bring them back up to sync, and maintain them from there
[19:47] <phillw> eagles0513875_: hopefully with using the tags, we can better get them sync'd up.
[19:47] <eagles0513875_> phillw: pleia2  i would like to potentially push using alfresco
[19:48] <eagles0513875_> http://www.alfresco.com/
[19:48] <eagles0513875_> that would require me to make a juju charm for mhall to use to deploy it for testing
[19:48] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: I appreciate the work you've put in here, but it's really a major project and I'm thinking that right at this moment we want to work to use the tools we have now that we have an active team
[19:48] <pleia2> I think the core issue is that for the past few years, no one has been overseeing this
[19:48] <eagles0513875_> pleia2: agreed it will be a task to implement down the line not necessarily for this release cycle
[19:48] <eagles0513875_> would it be something i should invest my time in working on a charm for?
[19:49] <phillw> pleia2: eagles0513875_ that is a +1 from me; it is too big a change to undertake with an LTS coming up.
[19:49] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: my inclination is to see how we do this next cycle with improving our current infrastructure now that we have the team in place
[19:49] <phillw> eagles0513875_: go for it!
[19:49] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: I honestly think your time is much better spent going through the docs and figuring out what is duplicated, incorrect and filing bugs
[19:50] <phillw> but do not lose time and effort on what we have
[19:50] <eagles0513875_> agreed and dont get me wrong it might not be ready for even the 14.10 as it would involve working out some kinks wiht open jdk and alfresco
[19:50] <eagles0513875_> pleia2: agreed can already file two bugs between community and official docs for postfix and dovecot would need to check the 13.10 docs though
[19:50] <eagles0513875_> phillw: pleia2 you guys seem to be saying two different things
[19:50] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: indeed we are
[19:50] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: In addition to getting Alfresco up and running, we also have to consider how it impacts our workflow.
[19:51] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: For example, right now we inherit a lot of documentation from the GNOME project.
[19:51] <eagles0513875_> phillw:  you say go for it for future roll out and testing and pleia2 you are saying to wait
[19:51] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: looks like phillw and I disagree :)
[19:51] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: How easily can we stay in sync with GNOME if we're using Alfresco?
[19:51] <eagles0513875_> godbyk: it will be easy to track whose doing what as you can assign tasks to people
[19:51] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: gnome documentation is written in mallard
[19:51] <pleia2> that's not going to change
[19:52] <eagles0513875_> asking in the alfresco channel about that
[19:52] <phillw> eagles0513875_: please continue to look at alfresco; but 14,04 takes precedence. I do not think that is an opposing postion :)
[19:52] <eagles0513875_> agreed 14.04 does take presedence.
[19:52] <eagles0513875_> i think though some sort of approval and verification of the community docs needs to be put in place
[19:53] <dsmythies> somtimes differences between wiki and official docs is just two different ways of doing the same thing. I find different ways of doing the same thing one of the challenges of linux.
[19:53] <pleia2> phillw: I just don't want him to waste his time if we do manage to get the docs in order with our current workflow, and we really do need people reviewing the docs and submitting bugs about issues between them
[19:53] <mhall119> eagles0513875_: might I recommend that before spending a lot of time on a specific implementation, you first put together a wiki spec page detailing the requires & desired features of any solution, and marking how well Alfresco provide them
[19:53] <pleia2> dsmythies: I'd like to see something like: wiki page links to official documentation, then goes on to explain other ways, additional details, etc
[19:54] <eagles0513875_> mhall119: not a bad idea but im no pro in terms of wiki writing lol
[19:54] <dsmythies> Currently, it seems the other way around. The offcical doc refers to the wiki page, at least in serverguide.
[19:54] <eagles0513875_> O_o
[19:54] <phillw> pleia2: you get a +1 from me, but also it is good for new comers to look at new systems,. Just because we have always done things one way; does not mean we should ignore changes. But; 14.04 LTS is not the time.
[19:55] <eagles0513875_> why on earth would official docs refer to community docs which could for anyones concern could be wrong
[19:55] <eagles0513875_> would it be possible to put in a review mechanism
[19:55] <eagles0513875_> if we are using bzr is it possible actually to implement something like gerrit which is a patch review system
[19:55] <bkerensa> :D
[19:55] <bkerensa> back
[19:55] <bkerensa> \o/
[19:55] <pleia2> dsmythies: well I think they can go both ways, official doc references wiki for more details, wiki references official for basics
[19:56] <eagles0513875_> not sure if it would work for documentation but it is a very useful way to keep trac of changes review them and push them
[19:56] <eagles0513875_> to bzr potentially im not sure though
[19:56] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: right now merges from no-core folks need to go through the merge proposal process, so core members review and approve
[19:56] <pleia2> it's not as good or easy as gerrit, but it works
[19:56] <eagles0513875_> pleia2: i think everythign should be approved
[19:57] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: While that would be nice, I don't think we have enough people to manage that.
[19:57] <eagles0513875_> agreed.
[19:57] <pleia2> I don't think we want a formal review system on the wiki, freedom is kind of the point of a wiki :) and we do have admins who keep an eye on content as best they can
[19:58] <eagles0513875_> the lil wiki work i have done with mallard and the wiki system it is a bit cumbersom
[19:58] <eagles0513875_> pleia2: then someones 7 year old can write something and it will be total and utter rubbish
[19:58] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: yes, and hopefully one of our wiki admins will delete it
[19:58] <pleia2> or someone will tag it as such, or somehow it'll be found, it's the wikipedia model
[19:58] <bkerensa> pleia2: has there been any thought on cleaning up inactive people from doc core etc?
[19:59] <pleia2> bkerensa: I don't think so
[19:59] <eagles0513875_> do people get notified when somethign is tagged
[19:59] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: wiki admins should be subscribed to the whole thing, so yes they would be
[19:59] <phillw> pleia2: I do, however, ask that we alert as many people as we can to the tags. that will allow many sets of eyes to look at pages and flag things up. I do feel the tagging system has not been used to its full capabilities.
[19:59] <pleia2> any changes on any page
[19:59] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: A lot of people subscribe to wiki pages that they're interested in. So they'll receive notification when the page is tagged or modified.
[19:59] <pleia2> phillw: +1
[19:59] <bkerensa> phillw: do we know how many wiki pages we have currently?
[20:00] <bkerensa> is it not in the hundreds or more?
[20:00] <eagles0513875_> godbyk: is there a way if certain tags are used lets say needs update admins take a look at the page and potentially update it
[20:00] <pleia2> phillw: what's the url to help wiki tags again?
[20:00] <phillw> pleia2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
[20:01] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: ^^ there you go
[20:01] <eagles0513875_> another thign we could do instead of using alfresco as the base. use its api and develop somethign that is more tailor made for ubuntu
[20:01] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: As an example, you can visit <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/NeedsUpdating/List> to see all the pages that have been tageed 'Needs Updating'.
[20:02] <phillw> eagles0513875_: the wiki machine can go tag hunting :)
[20:02] <phillw> that's why they need to be at the yop of the page.
[20:02] <phillw> *top*
[20:02] <pleia2> godbyk: bad example, that page is broken :) phillw can you fix?
[20:02] <pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Duplicate/List works
[20:02] <godbyk> pleia2: I just noticed that. :)
[20:02] <eagles0513875_> can i be honest
[20:03] <eagles0513875_> the mallard markup i find to be rather cumbersom to work with
[20:03] <pleia2> oh, we're over time, so we should wrap up
[20:03] <eagles0513875_> my fault
[20:03] <eagles0513875_> i have so many ideas hehe
[20:03] <phillw> eagles0513875_: we ask for nothing less on a meeting :)
[20:03] <eagles0513875_> ok last suggestion
[20:03] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: we're tied to gnome, so it's not something we'll be changing in the near future
[20:03] <pleia2> unless we can make clones of godbyk
[20:03] <eagles0513875_> phillw: pleia2  and not for 14.04 something of a long term project
[20:04] <eagles0513875_> why not use the api for alfresco and develop something tailor made for the canonical projects such as ubuntu kubuntu documentation and others
[20:04] <pleia2> then you have the problem with making the clones grow fast, and stop growing when they are godbyk's age, and you have to feed them
[20:04] <bkerensa> pleia2: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/+members#active
[20:04] <bkerensa> so adam sommers doesnt contribute anymore
[20:04]  * godbyk does like to eat.
[20:04] <pleia2> bkerensa: noted, but a discussion for later, I think
[20:04] <bkerensa> david wonderly also left Kubuntu and Kubuntu killed their docs
[20:04] <bkerensa> ok
[20:04] <phillw> eagles0513875_: by all means, but with the LTS coming up and how few we are in number, please to not spend too much time away for us... We need people like you.
[20:04] <godbyk> bkerensa: We could set expiration dates for everyone and if they don't renew, then they vanish.
[20:05] <eagles0513875_> phillw: thanks if only you knew how many projects i have on my plate
[20:05] <bkerensa> godbyk: poof
[20:05] <eagles0513875_> personal business projects
[20:05] <godbyk> bkerensa: As long as all the active team members remember to renew (*cough*), it works okay.
[20:05] <eagles0513875_> i should register lol
[20:05] <bkerensa> eagles0513875_: surely thats understandable and we also don't want you to get burnt out :)
[20:05] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: I don't know enough about alfrescos's api to respond intelligently to your proposal, but it certainly may be a way to go :)
[20:05] <eagles0513875_> pleia2: we coudl even develop an addon for the community as a whole of alfresco that provides mallard support
[20:06] <eagles0513875_> whats so great about mallard anyway
[20:06] <pleia2> gnome uses it ;)
[20:06] <eagles0513875_> you mean upstream?
[20:06] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: pleia2 pretty well summed it up. The Mallard markup is used both for the desktop help and for generating the HTML for the online help.
[20:06] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: Yes.
[20:06] <phillw> this has been a fantastic brain storming session, thanks pleia2 for being the driver :)
[20:07] <eagles0513875_> i wonder though the html if it could be stripped to leave just the text
[20:07] <eagles0513875_> humm food for thought there lol
[20:07] <godbyk> Yeah, thanks for running the meeting, pleia2!
[20:07] <eagles0513875_> thanks pleia2  :)
[20:07] <pleia2> ok, thanks everyone :)
[20:07] <eagles0513875_> btw
[20:07] <eagles0513875_> probably stupid way to end the meeting it might be a good idea to send out an email with a link on how new members can sign up
[20:07] <godbyk> eagles0513875_: Mallard is XML-based, so it could be transformed to plain text or other markup languages.
[20:07] <eagles0513875_> sry for my delayed responses im at work multitasking
[20:07] <pleia2> eagles0513875_: sign up?
[20:07] <bkerensa> eagles0513875_: I plan to do quarterly calls for contributors
[20:07] <eagles0513875_> pleia2: to become an official member of the doc team
[20:08] <bkerensa> eagles0513875_: they may not be as nice as pleia2's well written one though :)
[20:08] <eagles0513875_> ok kool :) well i would like to contribute
[20:08] <eagles0513875_> also may i add if you guys need a testing vps i can happiily provide one :)
[20:08] <dsmythies> Thanks pleia2 and everyone. I have to exit.
[20:08] <godbyk> Thanks, eagles0513875_.
[20:08] <bkerensa> dsmythies: thanks!
[20:08] <godbyk> Thanks for coming, dsmythies!
[20:08] <eagles0513875_> so if you want to setup stuff using the steps in the documentation just ping me and let me know and i can ge tit setup :)
[20:08] <eagles0513875_> thanks dsmythies  :)
[20:08] <pleia2> team structure is probably a different discussion ;) but I'm not an "official member" and I'm participating
[20:09] <eagles0513875_> got it
[20:09] <Riddell> bkerensa: our docs are back in 13.10
[20:09] <pleia2> you don't need a badge to participate
[20:09] <eagles0513875_> bkerensa: are you an official document team member
[20:09] <eagles0513875_> hi Riddell  :)
[20:09] <pleia2> anyway, time to wrap up!
[20:09] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[20:09] <meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Oct 21 20:09:39 2013 UTC.
[20:09] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-19.01.moin.txt
[20:09] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-10-21-19.01.html
[20:10] <bkerensa> thanks all
[20:10] <bkerensa> :)
[20:10] <bkerensa> Riddell: excellent! Did valorie pull it off on her own?
[20:11] <Riddell> bkerensa: no aaron honeycut was the lead
[20:11] <bkerensa> ah


[10:46] <miceiken> I have certain services that time out, typically at night, are there any easy ways to figure out what's happening?
[11:16] <tomreyn> miceiken: services don't time out, network connections to a service might, is that what you're seeing then?
[11:16] <miceiken> yes
[11:17] <tomreyn> does it happen when you have a local (to the server) client making the same / similar requests?
[11:17] <tomreyn> is there a high load on the server around the time it happens?
[11:18] <tomreyn> one of the most common causes of things getting slow at night would be backups
[11:18] <tomreyn> try to find out what the cottleneck is, get better system and service monitoring, more verbose logs (only) if needed
[11:19] <tomreyn> review existing logs first
[11:19] <tomreyn> *bottleneck
[11:23] <tomreyn> (only) IF you have proper monitoring but it does not seem to catch the event that causes connections to time out, you may need to decrease monitoring interval. or, if that's not possible due to causing generally high load, just use a simple solution such as sar to just cover the base facts with a low interval (with very low resource overhead).
[11:29] <miceiken> No scheduled processes running, during nighttime there is pretty much nothing happening. The only place I notice it is actually on irc, where I'll occasionally ping timeouts from libera chat. Funny thing is that other IRC networks don't drop. I can't think of anything that would cause it. If it had been the other irc servers then I would have
[11:29] <miceiken> expected it to be my ISP dropping long-running connections, but it doesn't sound as likely when it's just that one.
[11:38] <tomreyn> i'm not sure i understand how the irc situation relates to this system providing network services to which some (or all, at different locations, using different routes?) run into timeouts. it's also unclear whether the timouts are reported on the system you manage or on the client(s).
[11:41] <tomreyn> if there is no high system load on that server, there could still be high load on the client, or just on (one of the) the network link(s) between them, cuasing connections to time out. could be a noisy neighbour (on either end) squatting upstream bandwidth. so inspect / improve network link monitoring, too.
[12:04] <miceiken> > so inspect / improve network link monitoring, too. -- this is what I want to do, but I don't know what would be a good fit for this
[12:07] <CosmicDJ> miceiken: wild guess, the unattended-upgrades.service runs at night and restart one of network services after ugrading packages
[12:08] <miceiken> Thanks, I'll look into that.
[15:22] <MTecknology> I need to finally get a package mirror set up so that I can enable auto updates across my fleet ...
[18:58] <termina> This morning, an autoinstall user-data config that was previously working is throwing 'subiquity/Refresh/check_for_update: FAIL: cancelled' and bringing me to the interactive install menu. Nothing in /var/crash. Curious what might be causing this, or if there's a way to turn up debugging to see what 'check_for_update' is failing on.
[19:00] <termina> fwiw was hoping I could bypass Refresh entirely by setting 'update: no' under 'refresh-installer' but no go
[20:13] <cpete> termina: my gut says subiquity is not getting the autoinstall config, especially if the install is now interactive
[20:14] <cpete> termina: if you suspect a bug, contents of /var/log/installer  are potentially interesting
[21:01] <termina> Thanks cpete, you were right on. Not sure how this ever worked, but yamllint pointed me in the right direction. ;^.^  Appreciate the response!
[21:16] <cpete> termina: no prob!