 So I wanted to check in and ask what I could provide to help in my absence?
[01:13] <anastasiamac_> rick_h_: apologies for funny timing for the meeting - it's just aplaceholder... plz let me know what works for u :)
[01:13] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: aside from the info on the bundle break down lib and such, is there anything else you needed on my end?
[01:13] <anastasiamac_> rick_h_: ur presence? :P
[01:14] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: :)
[01:14] <anastasiamac_> rick_h_: what time would suit u better?
[01:14] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: the other one worked better, that's just getting up early
[01:15] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: but if you know what you're looking for input-wise maybe I can do it async?
[01:15] <rick_h_> I don't want to hold things up on me
[01:15] <rick_h_> as I think we had most things in hand back in the spec aside from the new bundle stuff and I've given you all the details on that
[01:17] <anastasiamac_> rick_h_: from my perspective, I think m k at the moment with info
[01:17] <anastasiamac_> rick_h_: would it suit u better if I'll try to move the meeting by 5hrs?
[01:17] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: ok, nvm. I'll be there
[01:17] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: don't worry about it
[01:17] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: forget I was here../me disapears into the night
[01:17] <anastasiamac_> rick_h_: i would like u to sleep :D
[01:18] <anastasiamac_> but I'll move the meeting to later as I think it may suit u and John better :D
[01:18] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: naw, I like to party :P
[01:18] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: ask my team, it's not that bad for me anyway and I can sleep in thus :)
[01:19] <anastasiamac_> rick_h_: if u reconsider, m happy to move to more suitable time ;D
[01:19] <rick_h_> anastasiamac_: all good, go back to happy work thoughts for your day
[01:20] <anastasiamac_> rick_h_: thnx :D get rest!
[02:49] <thumper> menn0: hey, got time to talk about the unit agent upgrades?
[02:49] <thumper> davecheney: care to look at this bug? http://reports.vapour.ws/releases/3059/job/run-unit-tests-trusty-ppc64el/attempt/3804
[02:50] <thumper> davecheney: weird that it happens on power but not amd64
[02:53] <menn0> thumper: yep
[02:54] <thumper> davecheney: although, that code looks so fucked up
[02:54]  * thumper is ask menno too
[02:54] <thumper> menn0: standup hangout?
[02:54] <menn0> thumper: see you there
[02:55]  * thumper wonders how this code works
[03:07] <davechen1y> thumper: honestly no idea
[03:07] <thumper> davechen1y: anyway, I've got this one
[03:07] <davechen1y> we've had continual problems getting the right versino of gccgo and libgo5 on ppc64 machines
[03:31] <thumper> menn0: this is the uniter panic on power http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2671/diff/#
[03:31] <thumper> davecheney: I have a golang question...
[03:31] <thumper> if I have a function, and that function defines a pointer variable
[03:32] <thumper> and in that same function I create some other closures (functions) that refer to that variable
[03:32] <thumper> are the closures defined to refer to that variable by reference?
[03:33] <davecheney> thumper: yes
[03:33] <thumper> good
[03:34] <davecheney> thumper: uniter fix LGTM
[03:35] <thumper> davecheney: ta
[03:46] <mup> Bug #1496217 opened: panic in cmd/jujud on power <blocker> <ci> <regression> <juju-core:In Progress by thumper> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496217>
[03:46] <mup> Bug #1496221 opened: Whitespace or new lines in "juju status --format=tabular" output <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496221>
[03:49] <mup> Bug #1496217 changed: panic in cmd/jujud on power <blocker> <ci> <regression> <juju-core:In Progress by thumper> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496217>
[03:49] <mup> Bug #1496221 changed: Whitespace or new lines in "juju status --format=tabular" output <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496221>
[03:50] <davecheney> thumper: when do "fix committed" blockers roll off the dashboard ?
[03:50] <thumper> davecheney: when they have passed CI
[03:51] <thumper> wallyworld: http://reports.vapour.ws/releases/3059/job/aws-upgrade-20-trusty-amd64/attempt/29 fix didn't fix
[03:52] <davecheney> thumper: do we have to wait til tomorrow for that ?
[03:52] <thumper> davecheney: I just removed one my marking it fix released
[03:52] <thumper> davecheney: we are down to two failures
[03:52] <thumper> I have submitted a fix for one of them
[03:52] <thumper> which in honesty I think will change a panic into a different failure
[03:52] <thumper> the other was the upgrade one...
[03:54] <davecheney> thumper: true, if that valye was nil
[03:54] <davecheney> something else failed to initalise
[03:55] <mup> Bug #1496217 opened: panic in cmd/jujud on power <blocker> <ci> <regression> <juju-core:In Progress by thumper> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496217>
[03:55] <mup> Bug #1496221 opened: Whitespace or new lines in "juju status --format=tabular" output <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496221>
[03:55] <thumper> holy shit mup is somewhat behind
[03:57] <thumper> wallyworld: is the uniter failure due to the missing upgrade step?
[04:04] <mup> Bug #1495591 changed: TestRunCommand fails on windows <blocker> <ci> <test-failure> <windows> <juju-core:Fix Released by cmars> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495591>
[04:05] <anastasiamac_> thumper: which uniter failure r u referring to?
[04:05] <thumper> anastasiamac_: the most recent failure from ci - http://reports.vapour.ws/releases/3059/job/aws-upgrade-20-trusty-amd64/attempt/29
[04:06] <thumper> menn0: I have a hacky fix for the uniter upgrade step in a 1.25 branch, running tests now
[04:07] <menn0> thumper: cool
[04:10] <mup> Bug #1495591 opened: TestRunCommand fails on windows <blocker> <ci> <test-failure> <windows> <juju-core:Fix Released by cmars> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495591>
[04:13] <mup> Bug #1495591 changed: TestRunCommand fails on windows <blocker> <ci> <test-failure> <windows> <juju-core:Fix Released by cmars> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495591>
[04:14] <thumper> wallyworld: after chatting with anastasiamac_ the answer I think is "yes, the lack of uniter upgrade steps is causing the upgrade failure"
[04:14]  * thumper has a hacky fix
[04:15]  * thumper shakes his fist at the sky
[04:15]  * thumper is grumpy
[04:15] <thumper> in our current tests... even 1.25, I've come across three different intermittent failing tests
[04:19] <davecheney> thumper: -race
[04:20] <thumper> bah humbug
[04:20] <thumper> no presents for anyone this year
[04:22] <thumper> github.com/juju/juju/worker/peergrouper fails every time for me...
[04:22]  * thumper sighs
[04:22] <davecheney> yeah, that one has failed for months for me
[04:22] <davecheney> especially on non intel platforms
[04:23] <anastasiamac_> for bug 1495542, i think that the reported bug is no longer a blocker as the test exercising unused code which caused the trace has been skipped...
[04:23] <anastasiamac_> This bug still needs to be addressed but it should not be blocking master.
[04:23] <anastasiamac_> The failure observed now seem to be different - the trace looks different. What we currently observe MAY warant another bug ;D
[04:23] <mup> Bug #1495542: 1.20.x cannot upgrade to 1.26-alpha1 <blocker> <ci> <regression> <upgrade-juju> <juju-core:In Progress by anastasia-macmood> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495542>
[04:24] <anastasiamac_> thumper gives presents? each year?
[04:24] <thumper> anastasiamac_: not any more...
[04:24] <anastasiamac_> thumper: no ned to stop on my account :)
[04:25] <anastasiamac_> need*
[04:25] <thumper> davecheney: I'm running go 1.5 now, wondering if that is related...
[04:25]  * thumper hits the -race fails with the go package...
[04:25] <thumper> no races for me
[04:26] <davecheney> thumper: almost certainly
[04:26] <davecheney> see long discussion about getting 1.5 rolled out everywhere before comitting to 1.6 for 16.04
[04:32]  * thumper nods
[04:32] <thumper> wallyworld: actually back to the upgrade failure, it seems that yes, while there is an error with a bad kind, things progress anyway
[04:32] <wallyworld> thumper: "ModeAbide: cannot set invalid status "started"" - that looks like it's caused by new juju status enums not being processed correctly, but that code has been in place for months. not ure why that is shwing up now.
[04:32] <davecheney> thumper: AFAIK juju passes on intel with 1.5
[04:32] <wallyworld> maybe it was always there and we didn;t notice
[04:33] <davecheney> it almost passes on non intel with go 1.5
[04:33] <thumper> wallyworld: the fundamental error is that the source sets relation config, the sink never runs relation-changed hook
[04:33] <davecheney> but slowness makes it hard to be absolute here
[04:33] <davecheney> see previous plee for faster ppc64 hardware
[04:33] <thumper> davecheney: amd64 and go 1.5 fails peergrouper almost every time for me
[04:33] <wallyworld> thumper: ok, will start at that point
[04:34] <wallyworld> thumper: peergrouper tests kinda suck (from memory). they need to be transformed into proper unit tests
[04:34] <thumper> wallyworld: ack
[04:35] <davecheney> thumper: try GOMAXPROCS=1 go test .../peergrouper
[04:35] <davecheney> that will make the scheduler look more the like 1.2.1 scheduler
[04:35] <davecheney> and may improve reliabilty
[04:35] <thumper> menn0: is this what you were thinking for the uniter upgrades?  http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2672/diff/#
[04:35]  * menn0 looks
[04:35] <davecheney> if so, then those tests need to be fixed to not expect a certain order of operations
[04:35]  * thumper pokes the peergrouper
[04:37] <sinzui> anastasiamac_: As long as master is not blessed, master is blocked. if you close bug 1495542, you need to replace it with a critical ci regression bug because stakeholder will not allow is to release if the test shows they canot upgrade from 1.20 to 1.24.
[04:37] <mup> Bug #1495542: 1.20.x cannot upgrade to 1.26-alpha1 <blocker> <ci> <regression> <upgrade-juju> <juju-core:In Progress by anastasia-macmood> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495542>
[04:38] <sinzui> anastasiamac_: CI Cares about tests passing, fixing bugs without getting the tests passing does not mean we can release
[04:39] <menn0> thumper: that's pretty much what I was thinking although in my mind those upgrade steps would be run from the unit agent Run()
[04:39] <anastasiamac_> sinzui: ah... my bad - the bug is not about the trace but upgrade difficulties :D of course, it should stay :)
[04:40] <menn0> thumper: calling them from Run is probably slightly preferrable in case there are some others we need to add that aren't uniter related
[04:40] <menn0> thumper: also, I thought you said there were 2 upgrade steps like this?
[04:42] <thumper> menn0: the other one is introduced in master, this is a 1.25 branch
[04:43] <thumper> where is the unit agent Run func?
[04:43] <menn0> cmd/jujud/agent/unit.go
[04:44] <menn0> thumper: ^
[04:44] <thumper> ta
[04:45] <menn0> FFS!
[04:45] <menn0> I'm getting TLS handshake errors with a freshly bootstrapped env using master
[04:46] <menn0> actually... ignore me
[04:47] <thumper> davecheney: FWIW setting GOMAXPROCS=1 makes the peergrouper tests pass
[04:47] <menn0> I think there's agents from a hosted env trying to contact the previous state server
[04:47] <thumper> heh
[04:56] <thumper> menn0: I'll move the run upgrades func to the unit agent code
[04:57] <menn0> thumper: they're probably also fine where they are (in the uniter package)
[04:57] <thumper> menn0: nah...
[04:57] <thumper> moving already
[05:07] <mup> Bug #1496237 opened: peergrouper tests very unstable with Go 1.5 <intermittent-failure> <tech-debt> <test-failure> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496237>
[05:10] <mup> Bug #1496237 changed: peergrouper tests very unstable with Go 1.5 <intermittent-failure> <tech-debt> <test-failure> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496237>
[05:10] <thumper> menn0: this better? http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2672/diff/#
[05:13] <mup> Bug #1496237 opened: peergrouper tests very unstable with Go 1.5 <intermittent-failure> <tech-debt> <test-failure> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496237>
[05:14]  * menn0 looks
[05:15] <menn0> thumper: LGTM
[05:16] <thumper> menn0: I'll await fwereade's comment
[05:16] <menn0> cool
[05:29] <thumper> ok... I'm pretty much done for today
[05:29] <thumper> see all y'all tomorrow
[06:30] <jam1> wallyworld: ping
[06:31] <wallyworld> jam1: hi
[06:32] <jam> wallyworld: so of Series in Charm Metadata and Resources, I think we'd rather focus on the former
[06:33] <jam> I know you poked me about the latter, and I can try to bring it up in 30 min, though I have other higher priority right now.
[06:33] <wallyworld> jam: yeah, that work is underway. i'd also like to get resources spec at least approved so we can start on it this cycle. eco really wants it. maybe you can do it next week, or just ask the spec to be reviewed over the next few days
[06:34] <wallyworld> jam: series in metadata won't take 100% so there will be a little spare capacity
[07:39] <axw> fwereade: I'm debugging #1495542, getting a lot of "2015-09-16 07:24:41 DEBUG juju.worker.dependency engine.go:438 "uniter" manifold worker stopped: getting resource leadership-tracker: dependency not available"
[07:39] <mup> Bug #1495542: 1.20.x cannot upgrade to 1.26-alpha1 <blocker> <ci> <regression> <upgrade-juju> <juju-core:In Progress by anastasia-macmood> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495542>
[07:40] <axw> fwereade: restarting the API server did not appear to help, but restarting the unit agent did. makes me suspect the dependency engine isn't delivering a new API connection to the leadership tracker... kind of clutching at straws though
[07:41] <axw> fwereade: other part to the error: "leadership-tracker" manifold worker returned unexpected error: leadership failure: leadership manager stopped
[07:42] <axw> fwereade: and after I restarted the API server, I was getting: engine.go:438 "leadership-tracker" manifold worker stopped: leadership failure: error making a leadership claim: connection is shut down
[07:44] <axw> cmars: ^^ on upgrade from 1.20 to 1.26, "metricspooldir" doesn't exist. is there meant to be an upgrade step for this?
[07:44] <dimitern> axw, o/
[07:44] <axw> dimitern: heya
[07:45] <dimitern> axw, just a heads up - we decided to do a simpler implementation (not as effective as I'd like) for provisioning instances into subnets of a space, only in EC2 and not integrating that with AZ distribution
[07:46] <dimitern> axw, then, we should have a discussion how to properly do it with you and/or fwereade
[07:47] <axw> dimitern: okey dokey, so does it disable distribution when a space is specified?
[07:48] <dimitern> axw, it tries to accommodate both - i.e. starting from all AZs and restricting them to only those relevant to a given space
[07:49] <dimitern> any reviewers? this is a forward port to master of the 1.25 fix for bug 1492066: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2673/ - please take a look
[07:49] <mup> Bug #1492066: cloud-init fails when deploying CentOS with Juju. <centos> <cloud-init> <juju> <juju-core:In Progress by dimitern> <juju-core 1.25:Fix Committed by dimitern> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1492066>
[07:49] <axw> dimitern: hm ok, I don't really get how you implement DistributeInstances correctly then. I might need to see code to understand
[07:51] <dimitern> axw, I'll send you a link to the PR by mail when I'm done
[07:51] <axw> dimitern: thanks
[07:51] <fwereade> axw, sorry, processing
[08:01] <fwereade> axw, ok, I'm not really managing to form a coherent theory at the moment -- that latest log does rather look like the various workers are coming up? but we've got weird settings revision numbers?
[08:02] <fwereade> axw, but then the leadership errors you posted above make it look like the problem is in
[08:02] <axw> fwereade: it did in CI, but when I repro'd it just continuously restarted manifold workers
[08:02] <fwereade> axw, fuck, I think I might know what's happening
[08:03] <fwereade> axw, we've never had a mechanism for usefully bouncing the workers that live under state
[08:04] <axw> fwereade: I saw the "HackLeadership" thing, which is called when the API server stops handling a client connection
[08:05] <axw> fwereade: isn't that the only time we need to bounce it...?
[08:05] <fwereade> axw, if it encounters some unknown error, it'll stop on its own
[08:06] <fwereade> axw, but then I don't quite get what happens when the apiserver restarts
[08:06] <axw> fwereade: I didn't see any "stopping leadership manager with error", but I'm about to repro again so I'll double check
[08:09] <fwereade> axw, error logging around state/leadership/manager.go:38 would detect that, I think
[08:09] <fwereade> axw, I don't think there's anything in state that'd otherwise notice the error until state itself is closed
[08:10] <fwereade> axw, hopefully we'd log that one, but it could be a long time after it actually happened
[08:10] <axw> fwereade: lol. third time's the charm, didn't repro this time :/
[08:10] <fwereade> goddammit
[08:11] <axw> fwereade: settings version is still screwed though
[08:12] <fwereade> axw, huh
[08:12] <fwereade> axw, so the settings version was right before the upgrade and something overwrote it?
[08:12] <axw> fwereade: not sure yet. I upgraded, ran a "config-set" which triggers "relation-set", remote state sees it... but it's the same as what's in local state already
[08:13] <fwereade> axw, is the relation-set to a unique value?
[08:13] <fwereade> axw, we elide null changes
[08:13] <axw> fwereade: yes
[08:14] <fwereade> axw, just checking :(
[08:15] <fwereade> axw, I guess check the rel-state/mgo-state versions before the upgrade and see which get touched by the upgrade?
[08:15] <fwereade> axw, either something's breaking the versions
[08:15] <axw> fwereade: yeah. gotta got for a bit, I'll try that after
[08:15] <fwereade> axw, or the versions are already broken
[08:15] <fwereade> axw, cheers
[08:18]  * fwereade has to depend on wifi through walls for a few hours, please forgive any spottiness
[08:43] <frankban> menn0 or katco: could you please take a look at http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2633/ when you have time? proposed against a feature branch
[09:01] <frobware> dimitern, voidspace, jam: standup time if you're coming...
[09:02] <voidspace> frobware: I'm here
[09:02] <jam> frobware: omw
[09:07] <axw> fwereade: welp... before upgrade, api server sent a relation units change with version=3. after upgrade, the initial change event has version=2
[09:13] <axw> fwereade: I think this might be because of the env-uuid migration... txn-revno would reset, because the doc is removed and re-added. but not sure why it hasn't been an issue before.
[09:14] <fwereade> axw, holy hell, that is horrifying
[09:15] <fwereade> axw, ok, if we're going to address this -- as we must -- let's do it right and maintain our own revno
[09:15] <axw> fwereade: yep, SGTM
[09:15] <axw> fwereade: any thoughts on why this wouldn't have been an issue until now?
[09:16] <fwereade> axw, no idea at all
[09:17] <fwereade> axw, ah-ha
[09:17] <fwereade> axw, ...or not
[09:17] <axw> heh :)
[09:18] <fwereade> axw, hmm. did we change from remove/add in one txn to remove-a-bunch then add-a-bunch?
[09:18] <fwereade> axw, I'm pretty sure that if we did a remove/add in one txn it'd preserve revno
[09:19] <fwereade> axw, separate remove then add would be dangerous, I hope we don't do that
[09:19] <axw> fwereade: one big txn, but they're different docs - they have different IDs
[09:20] <fwereade> axw, but I suspect a separate add then remove would be safe *except* for changing the underlying revno
[09:20] <axw> fwereade: https://github.com/juju/juju/blob/master/state/upgrades.go#L1133
[09:21] <axw> fwereade: the doc inserted would have txn-revno in it I guess, but I think that'd be overwritten by the txn code?
[09:21] <fwereade> axw, bugger, I would appear to be completely wrong
[09:21] <fwereade> axw, I have to double-check mgo/txn
[09:22] <axw> fwereade: and I'll do some experiments in that code
[09:38] <fwereade> axw, ha
[09:38] <frobware> dimitern, so I think I see why the number of sockets in close_wait dropped so dramatically: Out of memory: Kill process 4280 (jujud) score 699 or sacrifice child
[09:38] <fwereade> axw, yes, I am completely wrong
[09:40] <axw> fwereade: as in, revno is not preserved?
[09:41] <fwereade> axw, yeah -- I now think all the new docs will be inserted with revno 2
[09:41] <axw> fwereade: that matches what I saw
[09:41] <fwereade> axw, and possibly we do a few subsequent txns on them to bump those up further?
[09:42] <fwereade> axw, but it'll only work right if we bump them far enough?
[09:42] <fwereade> axw, making it more likely to fail (subtly at first) in long-lived environments
[09:42] <axw> fwereade: right... so I have nfi how nobody has found this before
[09:43] <axw> fwereade: sorry gotta go, I'll bbl
[09:43] <fwereade> axw, take care
[09:44] <axw> fwereade: perhaps before we were using !=, now we're using >
[09:44]  * axw actually goes
[09:45] <fwereade> axw, I thought we always used > but could be wrong
[09:54] <voidspace> frobware: dimitern: so the dimensions I have for the juju poster are wrong for the printer - I need to spend a bit of time getting the graphic the right size so I can get it printed for Friday :-/
[09:55] <voidspace> frobware: dimitern: hopefully not too long, but I'm currently derailed onto that as it's a bit urgent (this is for PyCon UK and the Juju poster session I'm doing)
[09:58] <voidspace> ericsnow: ping
[10:30] <frobware> voidspace, ack
[10:38] <voidspace> frobware: dimitern: graphic and printing sorted, collection Friday AM! *phew*
[10:57] <axw> fwereade: confirmed that it is >2 before, and 2 after upgrade. I'll look into an upgrade step / watcher change.
[10:59] <axw> fwereade: and we used to use !=
[11:00] <axw> fwereade: https://github.com/juju/juju/blob/1.25/worker/uniter/relation/livesource.go#L223
[11:00] <fwereade> axw, well, that would explain it
[11:00] <fwereade> axw, and could indeed still show up as missed-hooks on upgrade
[11:01] <fwereade> axw, but be much rarer
[11:01] <fwereade> axw, but still needs to be fixed
[11:01] <axw> fwereade: indeed
[11:01] <fwereade> axw, re the other stuff
[11:02] <fwereade> axw, er, I think I'm saying, it looks like there are more bugs
[11:02] <fwereade> axw, but I'm not clear which they are and what's been addressed already in that thread
[11:03] <axw> fwereade: ok. I definitely saw issues with manifolds restarting, and also one with the metrics spool dir not existing
[11:03] <axw> fwereade: I had to manually create it to proceed
[11:03] <axw> fwereade: but... that only happened to me the first couple of times I tested this
[11:04] <fwereade> cmars, thoughts on ^^?
[11:18] <dimitern> voidspace, frobware, I'm back now - reading scrollback..
[11:21] <dimitern> voidspace, nice! I'm sure the poster session will be interesting :)
[11:22] <dimitern> voidspace, incidentally, please have a look at this http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2673/ ;)
[11:23] <dimitern> dooferlad, frobware ^^
[11:34] <voidspace> dimitern: looking
[12:16] <frobware> dimitern, going to get some lunch whilst that process gobbles up sockets... want to look into this at the top of the hour (14 UTC+1)?
[12:17] <voidspace> dimitern: that's a shed load of test changes!
[12:17] <voidspace> dimitern: LGTM
[12:18] <dimitern> frobware, sure, np
[12:18] <dimitern> voidspace, thanks! yeah - but at least they're manageable  now :)
[12:19] <voidspace> dimitern: yep, good work
[12:19] <frobware> dimitern, voidspace: I was confused by the change largely because I looked that test changes first. the "other" file makes it quite obvious.
[12:19] <axw> fwereade: I need to go have dinner, but this is what I'm intending to do: https://github.com/juju/juju/compare/master...axw:state-settings-version
[12:19] <fwereade> axw, thanks
[12:19] <axw> fwereade: there's some fallout in state tests I need to look into
[12:19] <voidspace> frobware: yeah, me too :-)
[12:21] <fwereade> axw, that's glorious
[12:21] <fwereade> axw, I have wanted time and/or an excuse to do that forever
[12:23] <dimitern> voidspace, frobware, yeah, but to test the obvious changes was mostly impossible due to the way tests were written (they accumulated a lot of cruft over time)
[12:30]  * dimitern is gradually build up frustration with helm in emacs - it's helpful for a few things, but it gets increasingly annoying in most common cases
[12:33] <rogpeppe> simple addition to the errors package: https://github.com/juju/errors/pull/21
[12:33] <rogpeppe> reviews appreciated, thanks
[12:40] <axw> fwereade: cool :)  upgrades will be a little bit messy, but worth the pain
[12:53] <rogpeppe> axw: fancy a quick trivial review? :) http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2674/
[12:54] <axw> rogpeppe: only for you
[12:54] <axw> rogpeppe: shipit
[12:54] <rogpeppe> axw: ta! :)
[12:54] <rogpeppe> axw: you're a love
[12:56] <bogdanteleaga> unit-sleep-0[1244]: 2015-09-16 12:55:45 DEBUG juju.worker.dependency engine.go:438 "metric-sender" manifold worker stopped: failed to open spool directory "C:/Juju/lib/juju/metricspool": GetFileAttributesEx C:/Juju/lib/juju/metricspool: The system cannot find the file specified.
[12:57] <bogdanteleaga> shouldn't this at least try to create that directory if it's not there?
[13:01] <rogpeppe> this is what I wanted it for: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2675/
[13:01] <frobware> dimitern,  I enable helm for about a day, get frustrated with it, turn it off for a few months. Then I see the potential in some youtube video, turn it on... lather, rinse, repeat...
[13:02] <rogpeppe> if someone could give me a review of this please, it would make me happy http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2675/
[13:03] <dimitern> frobware, :) yeah - it's hijacking some commands somewhat haphazardly (latest frustration is compilation-find-file)
[13:10] <ericsnow> voidspace: pong
[13:28] <bogdanteleaga> dimitern, I've been starting with it lately and it seems really nice so far, but I find my usecases are somewhat limited and usually integrate with projectile
[13:36] <dimitern> bogdanteleaga, yeah, the worst of all, helm *really* tries to be "helpful" *everywhere*
[13:41] <bogdanteleaga> dimitern, well, I didn't find it intrusive, at least not yet
[13:42] <bogdanteleaga> dimitern, it's not like it starts showing up if you didn't call for it :P
[13:59] <voidspace> ericsnow: unping...
[13:59] <ericsnow> voidspace: :)
[14:30] <voidspace> dimitern: in my code review fwreade spake thusly "I'm raising a bit of an eyebrow at the gobal-prefer-ipv6 thing... is this going to be a long term approach?"
[14:30] <voidspace> dimitern: I assume I should reply "no"...
[14:35] <rogpeppe> katco: hiya
[14:35] <katco> rogpeppe: hey
[14:36] <rogpeppe> katco: fancy a simple review? :) http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2675/
[14:36] <katco> rogpeppe: working my way through them now actually :)
[14:36] <rogpeppe> katco: cool
[14:36] <rogpeppe> katco: this one's really really ickle simple...
[14:36] <katco> rogpeppe: you are 3rd in the queue my friend
[14:36] <rogpeppe> katco: awesome!
[14:37] <rogpeppe> katco: BTW it's targeting the chicago-cubs feature branch
[14:37] <katco> rogpeppe: what is that branch anyway?
[14:38] <rogpeppe> katco: adding macaroon support to juju-core
[14:38] <katco> rogpeppe: why wasn't it just named that lol
[14:38] <rogpeppe> katco: it's the branch we worked on in the recent chicago sprint
[14:38] <rogpeppe> katco: blame mattyw :)
[14:39] <katco> voidspace: re: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2634 is this a forward-port of http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2593/ ?
[14:42] <voidspace> katco: it is...
[14:42] <voidspace> katco: I'm going to close the two forward port reviews and repropose when the original PR is actually done
[14:42] <katco> voidspace: ah ok, wondered if that was what was going on
[14:43] <voidspace> katco: yeah, it was done. And then fwreade looked at it ;-)
[14:43] <katco> haha
[14:43] <voidspace> :-)
[14:43] <voidspace> all good stuff
[14:43] <katco> he keeps us honest :)
[14:46] <dimitern> voidspace, yes I think so
[14:50] <katco> rogpeppe: shipit
[14:50] <rogpeppe> katco: ta!
[15:01] <voidspace> fwereade: ping
[15:03] <fwereade> voidspace, pong
[15:03] <voidspace> fwereade: question about apiserver/client/status
[15:04] <voidspace> fwereade: note as a precursor that machine/unit PublicAddress/PrivateAddress have now changed and the only error they can return *does* indicate that an address has not yet been set
[15:04] <voidspace> fwereade: we fetch PublicAddress for both UnitStatus and MachineStatus
[15:04] <voidspace> fwereade: you were unhappy about not surfacing errors (the old code and my branch set an empty DNSName / PublicAddress)
[15:05] <voidspace> fwereade: as fetching the address can no longer raise arbitrary errors (no secret db write) are you happier with returning an empty address
[15:05] <voidspace> fwereade: if *not*, there's no obvious existing field (maybe InstanceState on MachineStatus) to surface the error information in
[15:06] <voidspace> fwereade: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2593/#comment17052
[15:06] <fwereade> voidspace, yeah, and status is bloated enough already
[15:06] <voidspace> fwereade: ok
[15:07] <voidspace> I thought that removing the possibility of arbitrary errors made it less of an issue, but wanted to check
[15:07] <fwereade> voidspace, possibly dump them to stderr as warnings..?
[15:07] <voidspace> as in the diff there will still be an "apparently ignored" error
[15:07] <fwereade> voidspace, I think that once you have an err return you have to assume the possibility of unknown errors
[15:08] <voidspace> heh, hmmm
[15:08] <fwereade> voidspace, (especially when the network is involved, as it is here)
[15:08] <voidspace> I've *documented* the error the method can return
[15:08] <voidspace> and if you can't trust a doc string what *can* you trust...
[15:08] <fwereade> voidspace, I'm laughing both merrily and bitterly over here
[15:08] <voidspace> fwereade: so this is on the apiserver, what do you mean by "dump to stderr"?
[15:08] <voidspace> fwereade: log?
[15:09] <fwereade> voidspace, oh -- ha
[15:09] <fwereade> voidspace, dammit, sorry
[15:10] <fwereade> voidspace, forget stderr then, just log it at WARNING or something :/
[15:10] <voidspace> fwereade: cool, thanks
[15:10] <voidspace> appreciated, sorry to steal your cycles
[15:10] <fwereade> voidspace, was thinking of an older version of status that did much more client-side
[15:10] <fwereade> voidspace, no worries, always a pleasure
[15:26] <wwitzel3> ericsnow: ping
[15:26] <ericsnow> wwitzel3: hi!
[15:30] <wwitzel3> fwereade: ping
[15:30] <fwereade> wwitzel3, pong
[15:32] <katco> is pinging random people a thing now? a meme maybe? ping wwitzel3
[15:34] <wwitzel3> katco: ping
[15:34] <wwitzel3> ;)
[15:34] <katco> wwitzel3: ping, wwitzel3. ping. as your fore-fathers have pung.
[15:34] <wwitzel3> haha
[15:38] <mattyw> I remember when this was a sensible channel
[15:39] <katco> mattyw: ok mr chicago-cubs branch ;)
[15:39] <mattyw> katco, I feel bad - I've ranted a couple of times the last week about how much I hate pet names
[15:40] <mattyw> katco, and there I was sinning the whole time I was ranting
[15:40] <katco> haha
[15:40] <mattyw> katco, also - hello there, not spoken in ages
[15:40] <katco> mattyw: yeah, hiya
[15:41] <katco> mattyw: haven't talked to several folks in a long time whom are not in my tz =/
[15:50]  * perrito666 learns that this was once a sensible channel
[15:53] <natefinch> ericsnow: back now
[15:54] <ericsnow> natefinch: k
[16:20] <mup> Bug #1496472 opened: TestRun fails intermittently on ppc64 <ci> <intermittent-failure> <ppc64el> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496472>
[16:21] <alexisb> sinzui, mgz is this a critical blocker for 1.25 ^^^
[16:21] <alexisb> I saw the cursed runs
[16:22] <mgz> alexisb: nope, it's intermittent, and we've had a selection of different ppc64 test issues
[16:22] <mgz> don't have enough info yet
[16:22] <alexisb> mgz, ack, thanks
[16:23] <mgz> alexisb: bug 1496217 is another failure from the previous run that likely has higher impact
[16:23] <mup> Bug #1496217: panic in cmd/jujud on power <blocker> <ci> <regression> <juju-core:In Progress by cmars> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496217>
[16:24] <alexisb> mgz, ack, cmars thanks for picking up that bug!
[16:25] <alexisb> alrighty all I am stepping out for a bit, katco knows how to get a hold of me if anything urgent comes up
[16:25] <katco> i am accepting requests for prank calls
[16:27] <mgz> katco: you are in an amusing mood today :)
[16:27] <katco> mgz: i aim to please :)
[16:29] <mup> Bug #1496472 changed: TestRun fails intermittently on ppc64 <ci> <intermittent-failure> <ppc64el> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496472>
[16:38] <mup> Bug #1496472 opened: TestRun fails intermittently on ppc64 <ci> <intermittent-failure> <ppc64el> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496472>
[16:45] <rogpeppe> katco: here's a somewhat more substantial PR if you have a moment or two. it's just code cleanup, but will make moving forward easier. https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/3296
[16:45] <katco> rogpeppe: will tal in a bit
[16:46] <rogpeppe> katco: ta!
[16:46] <rogpeppe> ericsnow, natefinch: you might wanna take a look too https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/3296
[16:46] <ericsnow> rogpeppe: nice
[16:47] <rogpeppe> ericsnow: thanks :)
[16:47] <ericsnow> rogpeppe: I looked into doing a refactor like this last year and chickened out :)
[16:47] <rogpeppe> ericsnow: i couldn't just make things worse...
[16:47] <rogpeppe> ericsnow: the error return stuff is terrible and sadly cannot be fixed.
[16:48] <ericsnow> rogpeppe: yeah, that was one of the major things that hung me up
[16:48] <rogpeppe> ericsnow: i've no idea what whoever it was was thinkin
[16:49] <rogpeppe> g
[16:49] <ericsnow> rogpeppe: hopefully I didn't make it worse with all the changes I made in that space for backups
[16:50] <rogpeppe> ericsnow: i'm afraid backups is one of the problem places
[16:50] <ericsnow> rogpeppe: :(
[16:50] <rogpeppe> ericsnow: almost every API call returns an error in the form {Error: {error object}}
[16:50] <rogpeppe> ericsnow: except backups returns the error as just {error object}
[16:52] <ericsnow> rogpeppe: FWIW, that was some of the first code I wrote for Juju (and in Go)
[16:52] <rogpeppe> ericsnow: that's ok - someone else should've been more on the ball
[16:52] <ericsnow> rogpeppe: so no surprises :)
[17:27] <perrito666> anyone is local provider savvy?
[17:31] <ericsnow> katco, mgz, natefinch: I've found the problem (for backward-compatibility the API server converts empty strings into nil in config settings)
[17:32] <ericsnow> katco, mgz, natefinch: this has an impact on the behavior of UpdateConfigSettings but not on directly setting the config settings
[17:33] <ericsnow> katco, mgz, natefinch: I should have a patch up shortly
[17:33] <natefinch> ericsnow: thanks!
[17:35] <katco> ericsnow: wow, nice... i think fwereade categorized this as "spooky action at a distance"
[17:36] <ericsnow> katco: :)
[18:24] <mgz> ericsnow: woho!
[18:33] <mgz> ericsnow: wave the branch at me when it's up
[18:33] <ericsnow> mgz: k
[18:58] <ericsnow> mgz: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2679/
[18:59] <katco> ericsnow: tal
[18:59] <ericsnow> katco: thanks
[18:59] <mgz> ericsnow: thanks!
[19:04] <ericsnow> mgz: sorry that took so long
[19:04] <mgz> ericsnow: thank you, that branch makes sense to me
[19:04] <mgz> and I can see why we struggled to track it down :)
[19:05] <katco> ericsnow: shipit
[19:05] <ericsnow> mgz: yeah, it was just non-obvious enough :/
[19:05] <katco> ericsnow: and ty for your hard work
[19:05] <ericsnow> katco: hey, this one was a team effort :)
[19:25] <perrito666> bbl gym
[19:32] <ericsnow> katco, mgz, natefinch: the fix has landed
[19:32] <natefinch> ericsnow: thanks for figuring it out.  I'm catching up on the changes you made now
[19:32] <katco> ericsnow: woohoo!
[19:36] <mgz> ericsnow: you have the next run through CI, eta 40mins
[19:37] <ericsnow> mgz: k
[19:47] <natefinch> ericsnow: so your change fixes the problem because it drops all the map entries with a nil value?
[19:48] <ericsnow> natefinch: yep
[19:48] <ericsnow> natefinch: it's what it was doing before
[19:48] <natefinch> ericsnow: yeah... I wish there was a more obvious way to do it... converting in and out of the settings object still qualifies as spooky action IMO.
[19:51] <ericsnow> natefinch: I was aiming for a consistent execution path through the two approaches
[19:51] <ericsnow> natefinch: I agree it isn't optimal
[19:54] <natefinch> I'm still surprised that using the deployer to deploy the bundle with the config had different results than deploying from the command line.
[19:54] <natefinch> I guess the client must strip out the empty config values where the deployer was relying on the server to do so
[19:56] <ericsnow> natefinch: yep, I suspect some trickery from the CLI before it makes the API call
[20:22] <natefinch> ericsnow: I wonder if it wouldn't be more appropriate to have createSettingsOp strip out keys with nil values
[20:24] <ericsnow> natefinch: that would impact other callers of createSettingsOp that currently do not worry about it
[20:24] <ericsnow> natefinch: not that it's necessarily the wrong thing to do
[20:24] <ericsnow> natefinch: I was trying to minimize the potential impact for this patch
[20:30] <natefinch> ericsnow: yeah... I'm just trying to make the code a little more obvious and explicit.
[20:30] <ericsnow> natefinch: fair enough :)
[20:50] <mgz> 1.24 building on CI now.
[21:00] <natefinch> ericsnow: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/2680/diff/#
[21:01] <natefinch> gotta run to dinner... but I think that's a more obvious codepath (and keeps your new test, which still passes, as do all other tests)
[21:02] <ericsnow> natefinch-afk: I'll take a look
[21:02] <ericsnow> natefinch-afk: note that I already landed that other patch for 1.24
[21:14] <ericsnow> katco: I've sent you my feedback on that email
[21:14] <ericsnow> katco: enjoy! :)
[21:14] <katco> ericsnow: sweet, ty
[21:42] <mup> Bug #1496217 changed: panic in cmd/jujud on power <blocker> <ci> <regression> <juju-core:Fix Released by cmars> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496217>
[23:45] <menn0> wallyworld: have you got time for a quick hangout?
[23:57] <alexisb> \o/ 1.24 is blessed
[23:57] <alexisb> ship the puppy!
[23:59] <xwwt> team is on it


 OTA-3 contains that fix
 @milkor73, Looks like encoding issue?
 @dohbee, You think? It’s just an ftp connection to a server
 Well look at the path
 Err, the .local domain even
 Sure, but it didn’t work in Connect to Server or FileZilla by entering ip only either
 The Quick Note app by Verzegnassi is good but if it would have nextcloud sync and it show in today scope will be better, like calendar app.
 Well I don't know the code, but I would start from the encoding to debug
 I’d be interested in hearing if it fails for others.
[01:03] <tgBot> luiski was added by: luiski
 @stuartlangridge, Wifitransfer works fine for me. Is there any specific scenario you want tested? ( I am on devel channel on an N5 connecting to filezilla client on Ubuntu desktop)
 @matv1, I don’t know. It works for me too; I’d like to know why it doesn’t work for @milkor73 :)
 allright @stuartlangridge. If you could, a respin with corrected font size some day would be great though ;)
 Agreed on the font size thing. :)
 I think one ofthe last framework updates by Canonical caused that fonts issue for older apps
 The tiny font is a bug. However, it should only apply to people who aren’t using the Ubuntu or File Mgr connections :)
 I’ll still fix it, though.
 great! and thanks for a still very usefull app
 Here is an off-topic secret that literally no-one probably knows.  Anyone who (was forced) to switch to Gnome may have had a really hard time or annoyance finding the suspend (pause) button.  Well... accidentally, I just discovered that if you PUSH & HOLD the power button it magically becomes a suspend button!!  High fives all around!
 that is actualy the smartest, most revolutionary function on any machine I've used.  Super clean/simple idea
 @wayneoutthere, it's configurable afaik
 with dconf or whatever gnome uses atm
 but yeah, neat idea. i used gnome for 40 minutes in my life and that was the first thing i noticed
 i couldn't stand it for an hour, hell i'm weak
 there were a lot of keyboard shortcut 'solutions' and my wife found a way to get it done but really bugged me
 try elementary OS if you are annoyed with Gnome
 it's based on Ubuntu and features a simmilar DE to Gnome. I call it "Gnome done right"
 i remember i already suggested it to you some time ago. it's really neat
 @vanyasem, i might....
 you really should, spin it in a VM when you get some spare time
 ok its 'on the list' (which is long) :)
 make sure to install it in a VM, not just "try it". not all functions are availiable in live mode
 @wayneoutthere, prioritize it!
 @vanyasem, roger
 @wayneoutthere, You mean Ivan?
 😂
 @wayneoutthere, have you left the OT chat
 i've sent a nice picture of elementary os there
 Guys. Just wondering. Where can I get a Meizu Pro 5 right now?
 I messed up 😂 Could someone give default sources.list file?
 @Dohxis, vivid?
 yeah
 https://pastebin.com/eBrmDMWu
 this is already fixed content for after Vivid reached OEL. You can update and isntall stuff on it right away.
 *EOL
 Thanks
 @wayneoutthere, I can support that! I'm running it as a daily driver on my laptop (don't have a pc) and it's GORGEOUS!
 @wayneoutthere, Except that you can't find it except by pure luck
 Undiscoverable is not good design
 Oh, I didn't even know of that way, I only remember holding shift
 I think it's pretty clever. I love it. :)
 Keeps things clean, yet still remains functional.
 Would be better if you could find it
 KDE does it better
 Only shows common options, and when you select one it starts a 30 second countdown with that option selected and also offering you to switch to suspend instead
 @Lorxu, I can find it. I did. :P
 @Lorxu, KDE does simple by default. Doesn't necessarily mean better,
 Well, not simple, more... Traditional.
 At least you can find it easily on KDE
 🤷♂
 GNOME could be everything but still its more faster than Unity7 and for me thats a win win
 @Ferdieofficial, Take care. You need the International version, not the China version
 https://twitter.com/lanux_mage/status/943413278918762497
 @Seumas, DocViewer is not a preinstalled app, nor it was when it was still part of the Ubuntu Core Apps project. It takes a lot of space due to the inclusion of a minimal version of LibreOffice inside the .click package, in order to fulfill the requirements of the ODF viewer backend (which is LibreOfficeKit). With the next year, I'll try to merge back all the changes I was working on when I left the Core Apps team (I've been maintaing the offic
[09:49] <tgBot> DocViewer project since October 2014).
 On a sidenote, the DocViewer version available on OpenStore is 100% the version that used to be available on the Ubuntu Store. It's not "a fork of a fork of a core app", but it's the version from the UBports repos. I'm going to move the app ownership to the recently created "UBports Apps" account, to make it less ambiguous :)
 @sverzegnassi, 🎂📣🤗😍
 @sverzegnassi, Thanks for such a great app 👏👌
 @vanyasem, Ivan, I checked the site and it really looks gorgeous. Just one question aside though. This OS is based on Gnome, thus not on Unity 7 or 8 whatever it is...what about future fully working experience convergence with UT phone? The fact that it is based on Gnome, doesn't it mean that it could be eventually more difficult to make the phone and desktop speak each other properly? Sorry, maybe it is a silly question but just to be sure, because
[10:12] <tgBot> interested to change Desktop OS but only if it is fully operational against UT. Thanks!
 @Matteo, the desktop environment is Pantheon
 it's neither Unity or Gnome
 it's Pantheon
 it's not an OS for phones though, so I have no idea why are you talking about convergence
 convergence is when your phone is a computer and you use an HDMI adapter and BT keyboard with it
 @vanyasem, That's clear, but convergence would be also intended sharing same apps. I was asking if Unity of UT talking to a different Desktop OS could raise issues, that's all. I'm not a developer so maybe I don't fully understand all the programming details here. From your answer I understand the UT Unity talking to Pantheon will be seamless.
 @vanyasem, I suppose there is an argument for convergence and desktop modes being similar, so that you get into same habits with both. Not because they are functionally connected
 X11 forwarding via ssh will work on any distro with X11
 if that's what you're talking about
[10:27] <tgBot> costales was added by: costales
 @costales, Hi costales!
 @Matteo, to be honest I have no idea what you're talking about
 @Flohack, Hi 😘
 one question please, links like scope://com.canonical.scopes.clickstore?q=unavapp are not working in the ubports, which is the recommendation to change them?
 @Matteo, anyways elementary is just Ubuntu 16.04 with some cosmetic changes. try it out, it should work
 I don't use Ubuntu at all, it's hard for me to tell
 @costales, Hey Marcos! I'd suggest you to invoke the OpenStore app, by linking to openstore://navigator.costales
 @sverzegnassi, Just that? Clever implementation! Thanks a lot 😃
 I JUST GOT MY FIRST PROPER TELEGRAM NOTIFICATION! 🎉🎉🎉 ALL HAIL @Flohack!!!
 haha thanks for the lowers. You never had them before?
 I don't think so, cannot remember clearly
 Thanks for the new Telegram Update! The reconnect after net loss is a blessing!
 at least not for the last months
 Well to ALL: on devel and rc you are live with the new push server and you will get all notifications now
 stable needs to be patient until tomorrow 😆
 Switched channel right now
 (→/praise_flohack← This command does nothing, so click it as much as you want to signal praise to Florian)
 lol
 hahahaha
 oh, self praise
 let's all take our time to appreciate @Flohack 's work
 (Document) https://irc.ubports.com/x9k4uhoN/file_2985.mp4
 @vanyasem, I got 3 devices here and they all chime when you mention me 😆
 print (" @Flohack is awesome")
 gratz, another victory on the legacy situation
 just 6-ish to go ;)
[11:19] <tgBot> saidinesh5 was added by: saidinesh5
 @saidinesh5, welcome
 thank you
 Hi @saidinesh5! I'm part of the welcoming team. Please take a moment to read https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome and feel free to ask any questions, especially in the Newcomers Room!
 (Y)
 @Flohack hello boss. I am in devel and still receiving notifications in telegram
 Great. I just read above
 Lol
 @malditobastardo, Yes sure its the opposite: stable lost them now until tomorrow
 Love you guys
 @malditobastardo, I think this is expected and a good sign. The server just got switched
 (Sticker, 512x512) https://irc.ubports.com/TzsQSM0C/file_2986
 @stefanomelchior, I just received this telegram notification
 OTA3 is coming
 @Ferdieofficial, may I recommend:
 tinyurl.com/yd6e
 *   tinyurl.com/yd6sg4r9
 Forgive Tinyurl use, but for whatever reason I can't paste from the browser into telegram on MP5 (fix in OTA-3?).
 That's the best version of the phone, International version at a bargain price. Recommend the seller. You just need to wait a few days for delivery then move it from Flyme to Ubports.
 @Seumas, This one is 64 GB, will it work with the port? I thought it only supports 32 GB
 Seumas weren't you reporting problems with Wi-Fi and cellular radios?
 @Seumas, The paste thingy is a big issue indeed
 Don't want to start complaints but that just reminded me. One of my biggest user complaints is how poorly UT handles select-all, copy and paste. I do feel this will be a hard pill for many people coming from fruit and robot platforms.. I dont understand why that would be but I dont understand development
 Probably because no one has worked on it?
 But it you're willing to send some patches to make text selection better, we're happy to have them
 @Rawcode, Hes compiling his code, he's checking it twice, gonna find out if it's buggy or nice, OTA3 is coming... To town
 What is this? Someonenin turkish group found. How is it that we cant all just focus on one until its rocking and then flavour out from there? https://fossbytes.com/eelo-mobile-os-open-source-android-alternative/
 @UniversalSuperBox, My lip volcano is locked and loaded...
 @wayneoutthere, Reading the article: just another modified Android
 Oh. Like cyanogen or something?
 Literally based on Lineage
 OK we are still boss then
 'every project is awesome, Wayne! Don't criticize other project's' - don't worry I'm not. I'm just excited we have something so powerful and roots freedom
 @wayneoutthere, Hi all.  … The 'UBPORTS APP-LAUNCH EXTRAVAGANZA' launched 6 apps trough the News Channel last few days and there is more to come.  … We were wondering what you think of it? Did/will you use the apps and are you able to provide a small review?
 are there any 3rd party apps built on UT using Python3?
 Eelo is the idea of the creator of Mandrake Linux. I see it as another distro based onf Lineage OS (new theme, launcher,notifications ...)
 @gouchi, I agree
 also they provide some cloud services
 A new email too if i read correctly
 @h4888, Yes, e.g. Hangups (Google Hangouts client) is one of them … https://github.com/tim-sueberkrueb/ubuntu-hangups
 @h4888, - https://github.com/delijati/fosdem-qml … - https://github.com/tim-sueberkrueb/ubuntu-hangups … - https://github.com/delijati/sparse-qml … and probably some more  :)
 @sverzegnassi you where faster ;)
 But less exhaustive :)
 ty all
 all examples use pyotherside ... i never tried pyside and qml ... maybe also worth a shot
 yeah I was reading up about pyotherside
 how does 1 sandbox UT for testing purposes?
 use a 16.04 LTS with ubuntu-toolkit-sdk installed .. an run the apps with  qmlscene Main.qml
 a ubports overlay for 16.04 LTS with unity8 would be nice ... but for now it should work like explained
 Yeah I am interested also for example if I want to mess with core things where should I start and how to test
 @UniversalSuperBox Mmm I now believe the WiFi problems were because of my home network and have now been resolved. Hotspot doesn't work (does it work on 32GB?) but perhaps it's been fixed on OTA-3.
 @Ferdieofficial It will work fine on the 64GB version and you also get an extra GB of RAM. The price is amazing and it's so worth it.
 @wayneoutthere, Woooow
 Exciting Openstore/App update has just been dropped in the UBports News Channel.  To learn more about this news be sure to subscribe to the News Channel here: https://t.me/ubports_news
 Thanks and done 👍🏻
 Fwd from UBports News Channel: [english] … ..and we just don't stop! … THE UBPORTS APP-LAUNCH EXTRAVAGANZA … Keep your eyes on the Ubports News Channel for the latest OpenStore *App Drops* as we spice up your cider. … For this round, we have the following TWO (2) drops for your Ubuntu Touch: … 1. PDFjs VIEWER by Boren Zhang (ranked No. 1 most requested app in poll) … https://open.uappexplorer.com/app/com.ubuntu.developer.bobo1993324.
[15:02] <tgBot> PACMAN PACK (Hipsters rejoice!) by Joan (@cibersheep) … https://open.uappexplorer.com/app/pacmanpack.cibersheep … Go grab these apps now and don't forget to thank  Joan CiberSheep, Boren Zhang and @mhall119 and rschroll for all the hard work and all the folks over at OpenStore! … Note: the OpenStore Team is always looking for app maintainers. If you can help, please let them know. … #ubports
 @sverzegnassi, well i meant "fork" more in the github sense here. the original code was on lp, then got "forked" into the ubports project, and then you seem to have a "fork" that has a couple changes, but missing a bunch from the "upstream fork" (presumably a bunch of automatic language updates though, i didn't check)
 Yeah, those are just the automatic lang updates. But I've been building DocViewer from the UBports repo, which is our current upstream
 Just wanted to make it clear since it was indeed ambiguous ^^
 @sverzegnassi, oh. the open store links to a repo owned by you as the web site, but to the ubports one for the issues link. should maybe fix that :)
 @dohbee, Oh my... really. Fixed it! Thanks for pointing it out! :)
 @sverzegnassi, no problem. thanks for building the app :)
 i thought for sure we shipped it by default on a couple retail images though
[15:49] <tgBot> * delijati oO(i'm a simple man i see i link i click)
 (nothing against praising, but umm not spam maybe?)
 😶
 The notifications are still not 100% userfriendly for me — It seems to notify me everytime instead of only when it needs to. There is quite the delay between seeing the message pop up on desktop on my E4.5 (rc channel) dinging, but it does so even if I immediately view the message on desktop. I suspect however, that this is out of your hands @Flohack but a problem of the Telegram team
 Nexus 5 users? Can anyone check "baseband version" in your phone? Thanks!
 where do you see that? only in android?
 in fastboo mode
 fastboot
 I see, can
 can't do it now...using it in desktop mode :P
 (Photo, 960x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/3EMIIGx1/file_2988.jpg
 @PalmCentro ok, thanks. so you have much newer firmware than me. my version is M8974A-<IP_ADDRESS>.16
 do you remember what android version did you have before installing Ubuntu Touch?
 @samitormanen, The latest avail
 ok. thanks
 @peternerlich, It's not great with official Android version either.
 @dohbee, Then it's most definitely a server thing
 @peternerlich, Yep. Original author of tg app was dealing with some of these same complaints about notifications, too
 @peternerlich, Yes you are right, this is not in my hands. However, if you are in the same chat/dialog that brings a new mnessage for you, no notification should be generated by Telegram at all. Approx 5 seconds after a new message, when you did not read it on any device, we will get the notification
[18:22] <tgBot> webivorous was added by: webivorous
 @webivorous, Hello Arpit and welcome!  I'm part of the UBports welcoming team.    … To help you get started, please take a look right away at our newcomers welcome page (https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome) and thanks again for joining us! :)
 @Flohack, Actually, even on the web site, I'll sometimes not see new messages in the current chat, but the list of conversations on the left will be updated. And it will stay that way for well more than 5-10 seconds sometimes, when it happens.
 @milkor73 was asking me about notifications. To repeat again the timeline of events here: … 1) the change was prepared in devel and rc beginning of this week. At this time both of these channels go no notifications anymore … 2) Today Telegram has redirected all notifications to our server. This was necessary to give the server a final shot of testing. Since today, its opposite: stable does not get notifications, rc and devel do. … 3) Tomorrow
[18:25] <tgBot> OTA, when users update, all channels are fine again … NOTE: You still need Ubuntu One sign in, nothing has changed, except 1 IP address for the push server ^^
 so there is definitely some weirdness on the telegram server side, in keeping things in sync
 @dohbee, Sure but its also normal in heavily distrubted systems that this can be pain in the a** ^^
 yes
 @peternerlich, Ah and regarding the delay: … Ubuntu Push client goes to sleep mode if you did not receive a notification for some time, to obvisoulsy save battery. So it switches to poll only every idk mayb 30-60 secs when not used for some time
 Sometimes I think even longer :P
 that's fine though
 @JBBgameich is this the official used kernel for krillin https://github.com/ubports/kernel_krillin ?
 @wayneoutthere, I did a bug report in yunit about that. Because it has to do with oxide itself I think. Or with unity8 in general
 (Photo, 1180x105) https://irc.ubports.com/fP9GOUuH/file_2990.jpg Push Server is pushing ^^
 @Flohack do you know how to get Cell signal strength info (dBm) in UT phones?
 By the way, Telegram told me that either we receive 60k msgs/day or between 200k-1m .. I am nervous about tomorrow. But they cant tell me better lol
 I cannot paste the link of the bug report lok
 @samitormanen, No, sorry. Is this coming from Ofono? Try to ask Halium guys /many porters inside), or Marius or Bhushan
 Lol
 @Flohack, What??
 @Flohack, ok, thanks
 @malditobastardo, Well that was the result of trying to find out how to size our push server in regard to CPU and memory lol
 @Flohack, Thx Florian
 @Flohack, Oh ok I though that they will say something about if we received less
 (Photo, 1080x1920) https://irc.ubports.com/9UmDtFZG/file_2992.jpg
 @samitormanen, one of the scripts that's included in ofono probably prints such info
 I do not receive notifications with Telegram <IP_ADDRESS>
 @Hunter616, https://twitter.com/lanux_mage/status/943413278918762497
 Tomorrow latest on the evening you do an OTA update and they will be back
 Thanks
 @Flohack, In the image of Canonical there will be no more notifications? I got it right?
 @Bolly, I think I can confirm this. At least for telegram
 @Bolly, Yes this is correct. But its more precise: … - No notifications in Canonical image … - No notifications in UBports image with OTA-2
 @peternerlich, ok, thanks, good job everyone!!!
 @Flohack, Ok, very clear.
 @Flohack, this deserves it.... https://t.me/ubports_news
 @dohbee, you were right, following script gives modem info ./list-modems
 would be wonderful if we could get that modem info straight from settings page..
 @delijati, That's the one forked from BQ I think
 Our porting attempt used a 3.10 kernel, which was ported to the device later
 Maybe @mariogrip plans to run the existing krillin image in Haliums LXC setup so it's at least compatible with Halium ports ...
 But that's just a guess
[19:36] <rapha> hi
[19:37] <rapha> so i just installed ubports on an old nexus5
[19:37] <rapha> amazing
[19:37] <rapha> the install was easy enough i'd let my dad do it
 @rapha, 👍
[19:37] <rapha> :)
[19:37] <rapha> hmm
[19:37] <rapha> is there nothing like a "desktop" in ubports?
[19:37] <rapha> i.e. the apps screen is the default screen?
 Notifications are very important. Each people wants a type of notifications and others think it is an annoying beep and beep. When someone is creating a new issue it would be interesting that he asked the system to give a new index. So, you could configure your app to sound only if a commentary has that index. You could add various indices too. Other option is that the app sounds only when something is said by the people you want. I think noti
[19:37] <tgBot> should be discused by many people and time.
[19:39]  * rapha flashes unstable to see how that's different
 hint, it's unstable :)
[19:39] <rapha> well the phone is brolen anyways ... not gonna become a daily driver or anything
[19:39] <rapha> it's a shame
 @rapha, UT Tweak Tool can do this for you.  … https://uappexplorer.com/app/ut-tweak-tool.sverzegnassi
 does that hide the dash though?
[19:41] <rapha> tgBot: i doubt it can fix a slack joint in the sim card slot. if anything i would have to try and reflow the mainboard.
 telegram bridged to irc is not entirely clear on whom is speaking about what
[19:42] <rapha> oh!
 @Crash_Burn was suggesting tweak tool for the background
[19:42] <rapha> oic
[19:43] <rapha> thanks for the suggestions Crash_Burn
 tgbot is just the bridge bot, which relays messages between irc and telegram. :)
 @rapha, I think i misunderstood his question.  No there is no default screen... it would be the app scope.
[19:43] <rapha> yeah i know but it's difficult to re-train yourself to be aware of it
 yeah, it's hard to follow for me, and i use both irc and telegram :)
[19:44] <rapha> Crash_Burn: I suffer from ADDH so having a neutral screen (no icons, nothing that could pull my attention away) is a matter of accessibility for me.
 @rapha, Sorry to hear that... I think I understand what you are saying.  I don't know the best solution but I would try switching to Windowed mode using UT tweak tool and try that out.  Without kb/mouse it will be tricky to use though.
[19:47] <rapha> hmm
[19:48] <rapha> okay i'll play around with, just evaluating for the moment. i'd like to use ubtouch on my nexus4 (nothing broken there) as a full-time android replacement but first have to check if there's an app for everything. thus the install on the broken nexus5 first.
 I wonder if it would be possible to make a blank scope.. and then just swiped in from the left to find an app?
[19:48] <rapha> i would love that!
[19:48] <rapha> even if it just displayed a color, gradient, or picture.
 Rapha, you can make the icons black and white if you wish, by making Falcon your default scope
[19:49] <rapha> (pic is best ofc because then everybody can choose what they like best)
 Any scope can be ordered to be the default
 So second scope for me is Music... how does it look if you swipe app scope left and pull up music scope?
[19:51] <rapha> Stereofront: i'm not distracted by colours as opposed to monochrome usually. it's more of a "oh look, that app, i could check that next" problem. the worst thing ever are facebook-style notifications (little numbers in circles). in that respect, liking ubports a lot so far.
[19:51] <rapha> Crash_Burn: atm still waiting for the update to unstable finishing.
 Rapha. Try installing commandfu which is practically a blank screen
 @rapha, rapaha @KrisJacewicz , Kris is working on something to kill scopes and use UT as a desktop with wallpaper etc, maybe you should write to him or wait for his answer, he may help you with your problem :)
[19:57] <rapha> KrisJacewicz: is there something that can be installed already? :)
[19:59] <rapha> weird. trying to use the ubuntu store to install ut tweak tool and commandfu, but the search keeps on going forever
[20:01] <rapha> hmm i guess a calendar scope would also work
[20:10] <rapha> seems both stores are broken athm
[20:10] <rapha> atm*
[20:10] <rapha> i'll try again tomorrow
[20:10] <rapha> thank you for all the suggestions! :)
 My fairphone2 reboots every time i import a pdf with pdfjsviewer --» fileManager (stable)
 I'm on devel channel
 my 2 cents on how to think about growth and scaling in a healthy way. https://forums.ubports.com/topic/782/organize-and-stimulate-promotion-of-ubports-ubuntu-touch/14
 @profetik777, Well stated! +1
 @Matteo, Thank you sir
 @profetik777, Marketing to those who come within our 'orbit' is very good. As always, the question is "what are the characteristics of the target audience". We are maybe not clear enough about that - and in any case, the nature of the audience will evolve. Nobody goes looking for a 'Android Marshmallow' phone. They look for hardware. That will become more true for us, as we progress
 :D
 I cant attach images now anymore
 ok my phone just restarted
 @Xenial, Well I was just trying this also everything worked well except that when I tried to send a picture here telegram went crazy
 now my phone restarted
 rebooted*
 (Photo, 1080x1920) https://irc.ubports.com/maKzxOjK/file_2994.jpg
 Finally! Anyways. My phone is rebooting using the pdf viewer
 sorry for asking a maybe stupid question: which is the recommended way to install ubports on my FP2? on ubports.com I find ubports-installer. is this OK?
 @Daniel, Various ways but that is fine. Visit Welcome Room if you would like a walkthrough
 :)
 Thanks! I hope I'll make it without welcome room, I have already done it several times, but this has been months ago. I was just wondering which way would be best. Maybe I'll come there, if I can't make it ;)
 Work has been done on the installer since then. Should be easier
 the installer was the easiest thing i ever used when I flashed my N5
 @Stereofont, Thats my concern. The way I propose thinking about it is from a growth mindset, in that we do 2 things: 1. Actively increase our orbit, which 2 increases the propensity to find more of those who fall within the RANGE of various target population profiles ( I use this word intentionally because not everyone who is interested in UBports projects in the same way or with the same technical abilities).
 I did it in my MacOS
 Remember to NOT choose stable if you have a new version display
 (:
 @profetik777, Nature abhors a vacuum. Right now, there is a gravitational field towards used Nexus 5
 ：）
 @Flohack, woaah... that might be considered a 'busy community'
 :D
 @Bolly, no ding-a-ling-ling from the news feed??? :(  Didn't think about that. haha
 @Stereofont, don't know exactly what you mean by that
 @wayneoutthere, Lets see... currently 100 devices roughly produced 3k messages since 10 AM today, which is 12 hrs ^^
 @profetik777, There is a hardware focus of sorts but not a planned one
 ah
 yeah, and that should be the case
 my thing is it doesn't have to be THE ONLY case.
 Or that one is at the expense of the other
 but alas, don'tt want to fill up the telegram
 @Flohack, But you already receive the full load of telegram notifications on your push server, right? The phones on `stable` just aren't configured to fetch them
 @profetik777, agree with your points for sure.  I'll try to spew some comments in the forum....but it is a forum...
 :D
 @peternerlich, yes
 like our hardware focus should be the thing that throttles finding more support in an intentional manner
 @profetik777, On topic. Very much so. BQ 4.5 was embraced despite being a pretty dreadful device
 your observations are correct ^^
 :)
 @wayneoutthere, I think i'll post more there more long form thoughts and discussion
 @profetik777, +1
 cant view video #7 … Open … NeoTheThird opened this Issue on 27 May · 5 comments
 @wayneoutthere, It's never too late 😜
 😿😿
 done. installer is nice :)
 @Daniel, 🎉🎉
 good night, I'll be off for playing around ;)
 @Daniel, That has to be one of the easiest ever 👍
 Ladies and Gents! All OTA-3 bugs/issues have been closed! https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/milestone/6?closed=1
 @Flohack, @wayneoutthere
 @Flohack, go have a sip of a fine scotch
 ... and a cigar or pipe.
 lol
 I quit smoking long time ago
 and look down at your fine work
 @Flohack, i said cigar or pipe
 that's not smoking
 that's reflecting
 @Flohack Congratz for the OTA3!!!! I just wanted to know if there is any plans to continue analyzing whats going on the video bug thing we are dealing in hammerhead for the next 16.04 OTA4?
 Thank you for everything, everyone
 @profetik777, this is somewhat related. I posted this 'bug' today.   … https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/issues/371
 @Flohack, Congrats! There is something to market / podcast about lol @wayneoutthere
 What about beer 🍺 ?
 @nfsprodriver, No, no.  Beer is for an RC release.  This is OTA.  Fine scotch and a bowl of sweet pipe tobacco.
 lol
 😹😹
 @wayneoutthere let's race to see who publishes first the news
 I will record in a few minutes the next episode of the portuguese podcast
 @wayneoutthere - if he is on his coffee kick, he will always win
 @profetik777, not this week..... it has been full of non UBports work/surprises.  Including my back.  I threw it out and couldn't move.  I was sweating from the pain.  Fun times!  But today is much better and fairly mobile.  Friday at best will I be able to find a mic
 @wayneoutthere Your back isn't better?
 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/12/apple-has-a-plan-for-universal-apps-across-ios-and-macos-report-says/ …   Even if it works.
 not sure what you mean by that
 @malditobastardo, Well we dont know yet if OTA-4 will be 16.04 or not. But the video bug is still on the list, yes
 So if we can fix it, then it will be OTA-4 ^^
 Thank you boss. :)
 @Crash_Burn, Oh boy, here we go again with all the concepts people think out for themselves and then claiming them as rumors :’)
 @Crash_Burn, Currently, support for pointing devices is missing in iOS11. More likely, it might be (or evolve as) an internal project for adding Magic Mouse support on iPad Pro. It'd be a more realistic, yet interesting, speculation
 You know what isn't missing support for pointing devices? … Mir.
 case. closed.
 @sverzegnassi, They mean an iPad with a 28" screen 😐
 That would be ridiculous and hilarious
 @UniversalSuperBox, You heard it here first 🤗
 @Stereofont, I'm signing up for a Kickstarter account right now!
 The large Microsoft Surface, with the Dial, is probably about that big, if not bigger. It’s a useful tool if you’re a designer or architect. Apple will have taken note of that.
 @stuartlangridge, They abandoned professionals a while back. Not sure they will do a U-turn
 who abandoned whom?
 Apple abandoned professionals for the mass market
 not really
 whatever that means
 Professionals have not abandoned them.
 "professionals" is an extremely vague and useless term
 it simply means one gets paid to do a thing
 Videographers, photographers, musicians, animators
 yeah, going to stick with my aforementioned "not really" on that on e:)
 one
 btw @stuartlangridge did you figure out the wifitransfer issue?
 (also, why doesn't telegram let me autocomplete your name?!)
 It's been flaky lately. Normally restarting the client does the trick.
 The autocomplete, that is
 i'm using the web site
 Oh yeah, that just is generally bad
 Servicable, but not the greatest experience.
 well, better than pretty much everything else on my pc, so far
 @dohbee, No. I don’t know why it didn’t connect for that chap, and I’m not sure how to debug it. I could add a thing which gathers logs in the app and sends them, but that’s Real Work, which gets to take its place in my project list, and it ain’t the top.
 @UniversalSuperBox, why haven't we done this yet?
 Done... what?
 a kickstarter fundraiser.
 :)
 don't say you need a plan
 Money is hard
 oh
 true
 just get a non-refundable waiver signed "YOu will never see this money again but you might see something cool for it!"
 Taxes are hard
 UBports is still not a legal entitity
 @UniversalSuperBox, Tax's are an adults Job
 @UniversalSuperBox, Omg. Smh.
 Seriously though that's a good question. Why not have a campaign for online donations. ?f doesn't have to be kick starter
 You mean, to improve liberapay or patreon?
 Increase donations with a email social media push in a certain window of time.
 That translates to spike of online giving out any kind
 Do we have a guesstimate ETA in GMT + 00:00 when any device will get OTA-3 tomorrow? Are you aiming for a simultaneous release for *all* devices?
 Pois isso e mesmo mau se não continuar as atualizaçoes anteriores o que vale de contribuir em! … Eu falo por mim e por muitos naisbque não tem curarem de tal. … Para que serve duare então? … Nao vai ser assim que vão conquistar o publico  a mudar … Voces ignoram o que eu tc aqui mas e a rialidade tenho um grupo que não e pequeno que tento mudar para ubuntu seja em PC ou phone assim não e facil. … Mas vocês desenvulvedores e que
 Questions are hard too 😂 jk
 @Ratattuile, En ingles, por favor
 ^ :)
 (I know, I don't have the accent on my keyboard)
 Ibgles  0
 Um tradutor plis
 Tal vez pueda encontrar algo en la parte inferior de https://ubports.com/page/telegram-welcome
 @UniversalSuperBox, I only know a small amount of Spanish. I'm sure that this is horrible grammar.
 @UniversalSuperBox, So this and taxes are the reason?
 At the moment, we're happy with how everything is performing and we don't want to take things too out of hand before the Foundation is approved by the German government
 Ok mas isso não diz nada so leva com que deixem de usar ubuntu phone
 Que era uauuuuuuuuuuuu
 I do agree that mo money = mo goals achieved, but it also = mo problems
 @Ratattuile, "LANGUAGE FOCUS GROUPS ON TELEGRAM" - Português
 I realize now that he is not, in fact, speaking Spanish. I don't know enough to distinguish between Spanish and Portuguese... :/
 Haha I had a feeling it may have been the latter1
 !*
 @Ratattuile, Bom Dia!
 Nao importa qual idioma minguem liga na mesma nos contribuímos com euros
 @Flohack I made commits to keyboard-component months ago, but aren't merged into ubports-touch :/
 Mas não importa a cobtinuãçao
 @Ratattuile, paulo.
 you are in the english group. haha
 @Ratattuile, UBports en Portogues: https://t.me/joinchat/ALdCegI_knZj301cCAbSMw
 he's already in
 lol
 he's typing in the wrong group
 @turanmahmudov, hmm yes sometimes we loose track, sorry. can you point me to this
 you know what it is?  it's probably that telegram 'lag' when you go to the contact list and he THINKS he's hitting portuguese but... bonus!  He hits Enlgihs
 @Seumas, ETA I cant tell you now but release will be for all, yes
 @Flohack, hmm both are merged
 Sim eu sei que não tou a tc no grupo inglês...  mas nu tuga minguem responde
 @Ratattuile, no grupo ingles?  I think this is ingles
 @Flohack https://github.com/ubports/keyboard-component/pull/17 … https://github.com/ubports/keyboard-component/pull/16
 yes, both PRs have been merged?
 @Flohack https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/issues/373 … https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/issues/374
 @turanmahmudov, Compare with https://github.com/ubports/keyboard-component/pull/22/commits -> I think you are missing some files
 Ok no, its not 2 keyboards, only the prediction db
 @Flohack I don't think so
 So you cant see the turkish one?
 Also i see `Copyright 2013 Canonical Ltd.` not really correct :)
 I am on the latest devel channel, and I can't see turkish
 lol @mariogrip how can we get keyboard updated? is it master or vivid branch?
 Hell those branches make me crazy
 Turan’s PRs are merged in master, but I guess we are currently building ‘vivid’. Isn’t it?
 vivid
 yep Im afraid, then also the swiss keyboard will not work
 very bad
 I am going to bed its ultra-late ^^
 @Flohack, not sure why it's closed as "works"...
 @neothethird swiss keyboard cant work, its the wrong branch ^^
 is there anything that I need to do? :D


[00:03] <mrooney> yeah, well I saw YokoZar seems to be a maintainer of the PPA but also works on the Ubuntu package, so I thought I'd ask how to handle it
[01:06] <YokoZar> mrooney: jdong: If it's a packaging bug it's basically my problem alone so wherever I see it would be good.  I look at launchpad more than winehq so i would prefer it there.
[13:12] <dennda> Hi. Any intention of getting the latest VTK (5.4) into karmic? at the moment, there is no vtk at all
[16:35] <ScottK> dennda: We do have VTK: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vtk/5.2.1-10ubuntu1 - At this point the only way I think we'd update is if it fixed the build failures with 5.2 and someone could test the reverse depends.
[16:45] <Squideshi> Under what circumstances should one seek to have a package included in the Ubuntu repositories, rather than the Debian repositories?
[16:46] <wrapster> what is the difference in using dpkg-buildpackage -k<keyid> and -p<sign cmd>
[16:48] <RainCT> Squideshi: almost none :)
[16:48] <wrapster> didnt quite understand it..
[16:49] <RainCT> Squideshi: basically only if the package is Ubuntu specific or it has some weird licensing which Debian doesn't accept but Ubuntu does
[16:50] <Squideshi> RainCT: That's what I suspected, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the confirmation.
[16:54] <dennda> ScottK: reverse depends?
[16:54] <ScottK> dennda: Packages that use VTK
[16:54] <dennda> ScottK: i imagine that's quite a few packages
[16:54] <dennda> what does 'testing' include here?
[16:54] <dennda> i'd be happy to help if we can get it into karmic
[16:55] <dennda> ScottK: i guess python-vtk are the python bindings for vtk?
[16:55] <ScottK> Yes
[16:55] <dennda> it wasn't shown to me for karmic on packages.ubuntu.com
[16:55] <RainCT> wrapster: -k is used to specify with which key you want to sign the package, -p is used to tell it what gpg binary to use
[16:55] <dennda> perhaps i forgot to adjust it
[16:55] <RainCT> (according to the manpage, had never heard about -p before)
[16:56] <dennda> ah yes, my fault, karmic has it
[16:56] <wrapster> RainCT: actually im a little confused myself.. thats y asked.
[16:56] <dennda> ScottK: well i can help with testing if you have a list of programs that use it and some 'testing means this, styleguide'
[16:57] <ScottK> dennda: apt-cache rdepends <packagename> for each binary in VTK will give you a list.
[16:58] <dennda> for each binary? Oo
[16:58] <ScottK> dennda: Also reverse-build-depends <packagename-dev> for the -dev packages (reverse-build-depends is in ubuntu-dev-tools)
[16:58] <ScottK> Yes
[16:58] <RainCT> wrapster: well, you shouldn't need -p for anything, and unless you're a MOTU you don't need -k either (you just need to export DEBEMAIL and DEBFULLNAME variables in your ~/.bashrc)
[16:58] <ScottK> The way I'd do it is put the new VTK in a PPA and rebuild the reverse-build-depends in the PPA, install and test all the rdepends.
[16:58] <wrapster> ok
[16:59] <ScottK> dennda: I don't have a specific "test means X", but it doesn't need to be extensive.
[16:59] <ScottK> dennda: I'm going to be offline for the next several hours, so I can't give more specific advice than that.
[17:00] <dennda> ScottK: i'm neither a motu nor am I by any means familiar with packaging, so *I* can't do that ppa
[17:00] <ScottK> dennda: Perhaps someone here can help you.
[17:00] <dennda> ScottK: well it's not *that* urgent
[17:00] <ScottK> OK.
[17:00]  * ScottK really away now.
[17:00] <dennda> thanks
[17:38] <Zhenech> could anyone have a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/mini18n/+bug/450821 and pull the fixed package from Debian sid?
[18:01] <dtchen> jdong: ugh, that "how-to" page is so bad. don't they know that they can just use hda-analyzer and hda-emu?
[18:08] <dtchen> bdrung_: that's pretty fantastic work RE eclipse
[18:10] <maco> dtchen: you were right. file not found.
[18:10] <dtchen> toldya.
[18:10] <maco> so what do i do? try a newer svn snapshot?
[18:11] <dtchen> well, if you want to dig in upstream's VCS, you could read the commit logs if you're really sick. Does upstream have a bug tracker?
[18:12] <maco> its hosted on kde.org, so i suppose so
[18:12] <maco> or at least the svn is on kde.org
[18:13] <maco> uh... no, no bugtracker
[18:13] <maco> just svn
[18:14]  * maco tries to remember kde svn credentials
[18:14] <Laney> hey cool
[18:14] <Laney> does eclipse work now?
[18:15] <dtchen> superm1: ping, what's the issue with mixer levels not being restored? What audio codecs are in use? Can you drop in http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~dtchen/alsa-utils for /etc/init.d/alsa-utils and paste the output in the bug(s)?
[18:16] <dtchen> superm1: ("the output" -> /var/run/alsa/timestamp)
[18:16] <superm1> dtchen, well it's been reported with a variety of machines, but i was able to just reproduce it on a virtualbox install
[18:16] <superm1> dtchen, you go and say set master to 91% w/ alsamixer, and then click applications->logout->restart, and check alsamixer and it's not 91%
[18:17] <superm1> it's back to the 80something
[18:17] <superm1> other people have been reporting it in the fashion of they set IEC958, and it won't stick
[18:18] <dtchen> interesting, that would mean that restore_levels() fails
[18:18] <dtchen> i can't reproduce it locally at all
[18:19] <maco> same with both gdm and kdm
[18:19] <maco> ?
[18:19] <dtchen> maco: and with startx
[18:19] <dtchen> about the only vector i haven't tested is ltsp
[18:19] <randomaction> Zhenech: request a sync (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess)
[18:20] <superm1> dtchen, i'm doing a fresh install in vbox with last night's daily, i'll attempt reproduce it again with your alsa-utils script and attach that output to the bug
[18:23] <Zhenech> randomaction, ok, will do
[18:23] <dtchen> superm1: thanks
[18:27] <maco> dtchen: nothing in the svn changelog saying "created Darkroom.cpp" :-/ also the svn snapshot is almost a year old
[18:27] <maco> (it does exist in current svn)
[18:28] <dtchen> maco: so, build infrastructure mess
[18:28] <maco> that's not a sentence
[18:28] <dtchen> oh, ouch. upstream changed the semantics for alsactl restore!
[18:28] <dtchen> maco: sure it is. "so, [there is] build infrastructure mess"
[18:28] <maco> ah see, now you have a verb!
[18:29] <maco> but i still dont understand
[18:29] <dtchen> it means you have something broken in your CMake infrastructure
[18:30] <dtchen> aha! indeed Intrepid users aren't experiencing this issue, because init isn't implied
[18:31]  * dtchen cheers not announcing behaviour changes
[18:33] <superm1> dtchen, /var/run isn't a persistent fs, so that file isn't going to stick post reboot
[18:33] <superm1> dtchen, but indeed /var/lib/alsa/asound.state isn't getting made
[18:34] <dtchen> superm1: that's fine, use /var/lib/alsa/
[18:35] <dtchen> superm1: ok, so /var/run/alsa isn't populated on a fresh install?
[18:36] <superm1> dtchen, /var/lib/alsa isn't, but /var/run/alsa has a notstoredall file in it
[18:37] <maco> dtchen: i think its more like "that file should exist, but the orig.gz is busted"
[18:37] <maco> because it DOES exist in current svn
[18:37] <dtchen> heh
[18:37] <dtchen> this is so ugly
[18:38] <maco> er...oh
[18:38] <dtchen> so it's because we umount stuff before it can write
[18:38] <maco> nevermind. none of the cpp's are in there in pbuilder though theyre there in the extracted source :(
[18:40] <superm1> dtchen, so you can reproduce it then?  would that explain racy behavior re it too?  it seems all of a sudden...
[18:41] <bdrung_> dtchen: thanks
[18:41] <dtchen> superm1: I can't reproduce it, but it's pretty glaringly obvious now that I stare at /etc/rc[06].d
[18:43] <dtchen> superm1: ok, one more test point: if you call alsactl store now, are the levels still not restored on next boot?
[18:45] <superm1> dtchen, just tried.  calling alsactl store manually, they are indeed properly restored on the next boot
[18:45] <dtchen> ok, right, so i need to make two changes to debian/init
[18:45] <dtchen> i'll have a test deb in a few minutes
[19:03] <dtchen> superm1: sorry, i'll ping you in ~1 hr
[19:08] <porthose> bdrung_, great I will email david and let him know ty :)
[19:11] <bdrung_> porthose: i already talked with him ;)
[19:11] <porthose> bdrung_, oh ok even better :)
[19:11] <bdrung_> :)
[19:12] <bdrung_> porthose: he wrote patches for audacity (which i maintain). so i already knew him.
[19:13] <porthose> bdrung_, cooool :)
[19:15] <bdrung_> porthose: i got your mail and i thought that his name seemed so familiar
[19:16] <porthose> bdrung_, purely luck of the draw :)
[19:16] <porthose> bdrung_, haha I have a few more if you would like another
[19:17] <bdrung_> porthose: one is enough :p
[19:17] <porthose> :)
[19:53] <dtchen> superm1: changes are in my alsa-utils branch
[19:53] <dtchen> superm1: if that still fails, i'll just make a specific -save upstart job
[19:54] <dtchen> the latter would be a crackload easier to debug than this mess
[19:54] <superm1> dtchen, what's "your alsa-utils branch" url?
[19:55] <dtchen> superm1: it's in the bug report that you filed
[19:55] <dtchen> #454265
[19:55] <superm1> cool thx
[19:58] <jdong> heh something seems to have left a udevadm.upgrade dangling on this machine...
[19:58] <jdong> kinda scary when udev tells you on bootup that trigger can't be used when udev is unconfigured :)
[20:01] <vorian> no body gonna breaka my syle
[20:01] <vorian> style too
[20:02] <vorian> a week and a half more of moving/training and I should be settled in our new home
[20:02] <dtchen> well, that's easy. you have no syle!
[20:02] <vorian> true enough
[20:02] <vorian> I'm stuck in denver at the biggest and loudest ariport on earth
[20:03] <vorian> and a lot of people smell too
[20:03] <dtchen> I used to think that, too, and then I realized that it was just my computer burning my pants.
[20:03] <vorian> oh crap!
[20:03] <vorian> your right
[20:04] <maco> and his left
[20:04] <vorian> :o
[20:04] <vorian> how was OLF?
[20:05] <maco> good
[20:05] <vorian> i was tres sad to miss it
[20:05] <maco> i stayed up til 3 saturday night watching doctor who with some folks in the hallway :P
[20:05] <vorian> haha
[20:06] <vorian> I must say that kne is quite good
[20:07] <vorian> I was worried about not bringing the full size lappy, but kne is doing very well so far
[20:07] <vorian> it will be nice to actually be nice to help work on it with lucid
[20:07]  * vorian says nice too much
[20:07] <dtchen> huh? no, my right is still my right.
[20:08] <vorian> haha
[20:09] <maco> dtchen: yeah so i dont see anything in the CMakeLists.txt that says "rm *.cpp"
[20:09] <superm1> dtchen, well do you want the good news or the bad news?
[20:09] <dtchen> superm1: bad first
[20:10] <dtchen> (do i have a choice?!)
[20:10] <superm1> dtchen, haha trick question.  it's all bad
[20:10] <superm1> didn't work still :)
[20:10] <dtchen> superm1: does alsa-utils stop work?
[20:11] <superm1> dtchen, no it would appear it doesn't
[20:11] <dtchen> superm1: ok, does it give FAILED?
[20:12] <superm1> Shutting down ALSA... [fail]
[20:12] <dtchen> superm1: and what's in /var/run/alsa ?
[20:13] <superm1> dtchen, i've been seeing notstored0 sometimes and notstoredall sometimes
[20:14] <dtchen> ok, and now i begin the initscript-sectomy
[20:14] <dtchen> basically, /etc/init.d/alsa-utils is useless. we don't need it to be an initscript at all.
[20:16] <superm1> dtchen, well before you go into breaking that down and switching everything into upstart, it looks like you are assuming that TARGET_CARD gets set by "$2" right?  well stop isn't normally called with any arguments like that I thought?
[20:16] <superm1> so surely rm -f $FLAG$TARGET_CARD isn't going to DTRT
[20:16] <superm1> er rm $FLAG$TARGET_CARD
[20:17] <dtchen> superm1: in that case, yes, but the real issue is that you're getting either 0 or ""
[20:18] <dtchen> superm1: i.e., it's completely legitimate for the sysadmin to use stop 0
[20:19] <superm1> dtchen, right i see
[20:37] <jetienne> q. i look for example of website installed by .deb. The only one im thinking about is phpmyadmin. any others ?
[20:39] <jdong> phpsysinfo?
[20:39] <jdong> squirrelmail?
[20:53] <porthose> jetienne, ampache, gallery2, drupal5, drupal6 are some others
[20:53] <jetienne> jdong: porthose: ok thanks
[21:39] <dtchen> superm1: changes pushed to bzr (r36)
[21:39] <dtchen> superm1: actually, hang a sec
[21:41] <dtchen> superm1: ok, r37 is go
[21:51] <superm1> dtchen, awesome.  just tested it, and it's definitely DTRT now, no more troubles
[21:52] <superm1> dtchen, would you like me to sponsor it into karmic?
[21:53] <dtchen> superm1: yes please
[21:55] <superm1> dtchen, okay uploaded.  you may want to merge lp:~superm1/alsa-utils/new-release to  your branch (it's just s/UNRELEASED/karmic and tagging the release)
[21:56] <Zarel_> Hey, guys.
[21:56] <Zarel_> I just realized it's October already. Which stage of releasing Karmic are we at?
[21:57] <dtchen> TheMuso: ^^^
[21:58] <superm1> dtchen, oh i had thought your branch was the main one getting tracked.  is it an ~ubuntu-dev branch somewhere?
[21:58] <superm1> i'll merge it in there if so
[21:58] <superm1> nothing is listed in debian/control
[21:59] <Zarel_> Hmm, the website says "11 days to go". Is there still time to update a package to the latest version?
[21:59] <Zarel_> http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/warzone2100
[22:00] <dtchen> superm1: ~ubuntu-core-dev/alsa-utils/ubuntu.new IIRC
[22:00] <dtchen> been a while since I had commit privileges to ~ubuntu-core-dev ;)
[22:01] <superm1> dtchen, how come you don't reapply for them?
[22:01] <dtchen> no time, really
[22:01] <dtchen> the process is a hindrance, and i'd rather just fix the bugs
[22:01] <superm1> says the man who is spending eons of time on audio :)
[22:01] <superm1> i thought for people who had them previously it's not much of a process, but i dont know for sure
[22:02] <dtchen> no idea, and i don't care at this point. my plate is overflowing.
[22:02] <superm1> :)
[22:32] <TheMuso> superm1: thanks a bunch for doing that.
[22:33] <superm1> TheMuso, np.  is there a particular reason that bzr branch isn't advertised in debian/control?  would have avoided the confusion in the first place
[22:34] <TheMuso> superm1: hrm I thought we had it there, so probably just hat we have never added it in, or if we did, it got dropped along the way.
[22:57] <quentusrex> Anyone know how to get a package to STOP trying to fix permissions???
[22:57] <quentusrex> I have configs on an NFS server, and they are set to full permissions, but the package upgrades keep failing because it can't fix the permissions


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