[01:11] <Azure_Chaos> Hello would it be safe to install the 18.04 daily how stable is it? Also would i have to reinstal at release time? I currently use debian testing but i want to move back to ubuntu.
[02:32] <FurretUber> Grub2 has a strange graphical error after I upgraded to 18.04: https://youtu.be/wKUBOAx73k4
[02:32] <FurretUber> I am not able to reproduce this on virtual machines
[10:23] <alkisg> touch "/tmp/hi there"; ls -ld "/tmp/hi there"
[10:23] <alkisg> -rw-r--r-- 1 administrator administrator 0 \u03a6\u03b5\u03b2  20 12:21 '/tmp/hi there'
[10:23] <alkisg> ...is this a new feature in ls? Quoting the output?!
[10:24] <alkisg> And it also includes a space in front of lines, e.g.: ls /tmp
[10:24] <alkisg>  file1 'hi there'
[10:24] <alkisg> A space before file1 there
[10:24] <alkisg> Does anyone else have that issue in 18.04?
[10:26] <alkisg> Heh, "it's a feature", ls -Q double-quotes
[10:30] <alkisg> Hmm, I think "ls" now defaults to "--quoting-style=shell" instead of "literal". I wonder how many scripts will now break with this undocumented change...
[10:31] <alkisg> There's a new -N option to disable quoting...
[10:31] <alkisg> http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/c/coreutils/coreutils_8.28-1ubuntu1/changelog ==>
[10:31] <alkisg>   * Reenable default ls quoting
[10:32] <alkisg> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=813164
[15:36] <donofrio> last issue (for now) that I have on my 18.04 install is I'm getting these locale messages once and awhile like this when I just sshed into a host while I'm working and it said "/usr/bin/manpath: can't set the locale; make sure $LC_* and $LANG are correct" so I'm wondering what do I nbee" so I'm wondering what do I need to do to resolve that?
[15:43] <alkisg> And what is the value for those variables?
[15:43] <alkisg> env | grep ^L
[16:00] <FurretUber> Hi, the package intel-gpu-tools no longer has intel-gpu-overlay available on bionic
[16:01] <FurretUber> The program intel-gpu-overlay is available on xenial, zesty and artful
[16:08] <nacc> FurretUber: i'd file a bug?
[16:09] <nacc> i'll ask timo
[16:09] <FurretUber> I'm doing it now
[16:09] <FurretUber> I noticed intel-gpu-tools source built successfully without the overlay
[16:09] <nacc> FurretUber: thanks!
[16:10] <nacc> FurretUber: yeah, it seems like a removed functionality, possibly upstream?
[16:10] <FurretUber> Because it is a warning and not a error
[16:10] <FurretUber> But I could build the overlay after I investigated the warning. It's funny, as it shows the Intel HD Graphics 520 is using 40 GW of power
[16:12] <FurretUber> Done: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/intel-gpu-tools/+bug/1750605
[16:17] <BLZbubba> hi guys, i just installed a bionic desktop, and systemd-resolvd is ignoring the DNS server IP -- though it keeps the search paths
[16:18] <BLZbubba> what should i do to debug this?  i did notice that the resolv.conf had (iirc) <IP_ADDRESS> as the ip, but systemd-resolvd is listening on <IP_ADDRESS>:53
[16:20] <BLZbubba> ok i lied, it was <IP_ADDRESS>
[16:24] <nacc> BLZbubba: where does /etc/resolv.conf point to (it's a sy mlink)
[16:24] <nacc> BLZbubba: if it is using <IP_ADDRESS>, then your system is not using systemd-resolved currently
[16:25] <BLZbubba> not a symlink, it says the file was created by NetworkManager
[16:25] <nacc> oh hrm
[16:25] <nacc> i'm not sure then
[16:25] <nacc> on my bionic desktop it is a symlink (upgrade over the past several releases, not a fresh install)
[17:11] <nacc> FurretUber: thanks for your report, timo has pushed a new version (updated build-depends) to debian, which should come into bionic eventually
[18:14] <Jayflux> hi all, is it possible to install postgresql non-interactively (so without picking country and city?)
[18:14] <Jayflux> this is on ubuntu 18
[18:23] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: welcome, how can we help you
[18:25] <phoenix_firebrd> lotuspsychje: I tested 18.04 daily image yesterday, I wanted to check for the condition of vaapi. It seems VAProfileVP9* was removed from intel vaapi driver. Is this a bug or a known action?
[18:26] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: sorry dont know about vaapi myself
[18:26] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: perhaps explain in this channel some more details of what you trying?
[18:26] <phoenix_firebrd> ya sure
[18:26] <lotuspsychje> !find vaapi
[18:28] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: also perhaps compare the xorg vs wayland session?
[18:30] <phoenix_firebrd> My problem is, I want hardware accelerated video decoding for VP9 codec video files using intel onboard GPU, My processor is i5 7400 which has the intel HD 630 graphics. It is capable of native decoding/encoding of VP9 codec. The is a bug is in the intel vaapi driver version 1.8.. .........
[18:31] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: did this work on other ubuntu versions for you?
[18:32] <lotuspsychje> !info intel-vaapi-driver
[18:36] <phoenix_firebrd> which causes image corruption in certain frames. I patched by driver by cherry picking a patch from the official developer git page. Now the media players work fine. The issue now is, since the release of vlc 3.0 the snap version is compiled for the intel vaapi driver with the bug and so when a vp9 codec video file is played, it is played with corrupt image in certain frames. So I was forced to use a vlc daily ppa(unstable version). So I wanted
[18:36] <phoenix_firebrd> to check if this problem is sorted out with the libva1(va-api2) in 18.04, as I know since the patch was merged before the 2.0 tagging, bug was fixed and I can confirm that.......
[18:37] <phoenix_firebrd> but to my surprise the VAProfileVP9Profile* was gone and VP9 hardware decode/encode support was gone all together.
[18:38] <phoenix_firebrd> lotuspsychje: Its a feature in vaapi driver that is missing, It is seperate from wayland.
[18:39] <phoenix_firebrd> lotuspsychje: the package name is i965-va-driver
[18:41] <lotuspsychje> !info i965-va-driver
[18:41] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: you might wanna bug against that, see what the devs suggest to do
[18:42] <donofrio> say does anyone here use multiple monitors?
[18:43] <phoenix_firebrd> lotuspsychje: I think I saw a bug report in launchpad, let me check
[18:43] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: if you find an existing,sure i didnt see it right away
[18:44] <phoenix_firebrd> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/intel-vaapi-driver/+bug/1591714
[18:44] <donofrio> not wsl question dell 8200 question with 18.04
[18:44] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: lemme check
[18:45] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: this bug is invalid as #2 describes
[18:47] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: but that bug is also created for 16.04
[18:47] <phoenix_firebrd> lotuspsychje: ya, but mine is a kabylake processor and as said it fully supports hardware decoding/encoding. So I have to file a new one?
[18:47] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: i would reccomend yes
[18:47] <phoenix_firebrd> ok
[18:47] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: and describe your whole story, ubuntu version, kernel etc
[18:47] <phoenix_firebrd> sure
[18:47] <lotuspsychje> might be helpfull for the community
[18:48] <phoenix_firebrd> Do you know what version of intel vaapi driver they use in ubuntu snap core package?
[18:48] <donofrio> When you have four monitors like I do on one card/chip radeon I cannot get all the monitors to touch sides in the "Display" applet, when they are anything other than rotation of normal....
[18:48] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: not sure sorry
[18:49] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: perhaps the #snappy guys might know
[18:49] <phoenix_firebrd> lotuspsychje: Thanks for the support, I will file a bug report with all the details and I will contact the snappy channel too
[18:50] <lotuspsychje> phoenix_firebrd: some tips to more easy solving:µ
[18:50] <lotuspsychje> try to find more users that can add to your bug
[18:51] <lotuspsychje> and try steps yourself to add to the bug=more activity=more chance of solving
[18:51] <phoenix_firebrd> sure :)
[20:23] <donofrio> so no-one here runs more than one display output on 18.04?
[20:24] <alkisg> I do
[20:24] <alkisg> In ubuntu mate 18.04
[20:28] <hggdh> two displays, standard Ubuntu
[20:31] <donofrio> ok can you get them to touch or just overlap
[20:31] <Odd_Bloke> I'm running two displays with 18.04 also.
[20:31] <Odd_Bloke> Mine do not overlap.
[20:31] <donofrio> I'll have to get a screen2gif for ubuntu so I can show you all what madness moving these displays around is
[20:32] <donofrio> I have a visiontec radion quad head that just "works by default" all screens live out of the gate
[20:32] <Odd_Bloke> (FWIW, I have one of my monitors in portrait mode.)
[20:32] <donofrio> and fine when in normal rotation but the have North / South  magnet like repulsion to each other...
[20:33] <donofrio> but only in "Left"/portrait mode
[20:33] <donofrio> find in landscape/normal mode
[20:33] <Odd_Bloke> donofrio: I wonder if the problem is that something doesn't think you can drive that much vertical resolution?
[20:35] <donofrio> yah I dunno....felt like http://unity.grogansoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/rabbit.gif only with four displays and I'm tryingto get two to snap together
[20:35] <Odd_Bloke> donofrio: Can you pastebin xrandr output?
[20:36]  * Odd_Bloke doesn't really know much about the desktop side of things, so is kinda stabbing in the dark here.
[20:39] <donofrio> I'll be able to do that in four hours, I'm at work and it's at home...
[20:39] <Odd_Bloke> Ah, fair enough.
[21:00] <FurretUber> The bridge connection created by virt-manager is acting strange on 18.04: the virtual machine can ping to the host and can ping to the internet, but can't ping to other hosts and can't access internet (updating packages, for example)
[21:01] <donofrio> FurretUber, are you Natting or Bridgeing?
[21:01] <FurretUber> NAT
[21:02] <donofrio> Try Bridge, Not had much luck with Natting and VM's (just a thought)
[21:02] <FurretUber> It's strange, as the same configuration worked on 16.04 and 17.10
[21:03] <donofrio> well then my guess is probably incorrect
[22:14] <tfgbd_> How do I turn off the accererometer?
[22:15] <tfgbd_> Everything seems to work but bluetooth and the touchscreen
[22:15] <tfgbd_> The accererometer works in the opposite way it is supposed to
[22:19] <tfgbd_> When I hold it in poitrait it rotates to landscape and vice versa
[22:40] <FurretUber> Definitively, the libvirt network configuration that is working in Xenial doesn't work in Bionic


[00:22] <bkerensa> !lococouncil
[00:22] <ubot2> The Loco Council is cprofitt, czajkowski, greg-g, itnet7, SergioMeneses and xdatap1 - they are there to help, just ask! :) You can send them an email at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[00:22] <bkerensa> Did the LC have a meeting on the 17th?
[02:03] <kemo> hello?
[02:04] <ChogyDan> hi
[02:04] <kemo> wassup?
[02:04] <Andrew___> *swags in*
[02:04] <ChogyDan> lol, Im just someone random.  Im on IRC because my oneiric upgrade crashed
[02:04] <kemo> lol
[02:05] <Andrew___> It is alleged that I am here!
[02:05] <kemo> it is alleged that u can get arrested
[02:05] <Andrew___> and I can get to sleep in a hospital bed!
[02:06] <kemo> what
[02:06] <kemo> what
[02:06] <kemo> ?
[02:06] <kemo> where is the flake ?
[02:06] <Andrew___> instead of sleeping in a jail cell
[02:06] <kemo> lol
[02:06] <Andrew___> hospital not as bad as jail
[02:06] <kemo> i guess thats better
[02:06] <kemo> ;p;
[02:06] <Andrew___> it bad, just not dat bad
[02:06] <kemo> i know
[02:07] <kemo> i was there alreadly
[02:07] <kemo> not jail
[02:07] <kemo> lol
[02:07] <Andrew___> YES JAIL!!!
[02:07] <kemo> nooo
[02:07] <kemo> lol
[02:07] <kemo> jail got no good food
[02:07] <Andrew___> I see when yuh come out on Frederick street!!
[02:07] <kemo> hmm
[02:07] <kemo> stalker
[02:08] <Andrew___> Iz tong, can't stalk there too many people
[02:08] <kemo> u aint ninja
[02:08] <kemo> thats what
[02:10] <kemo> welcome
[02:10] <Andrew___> yuh wa sorrel or wha!?
[02:10] <kemo> eh
[02:11] <Andrew___> it cheap and good
[02:11] <Andrew___> i swear it not flood crop ah sellin
[02:12] <kemo> hmm
[02:12] <kemo> i donno
[02:12] <kemo> something fishy about that
[02:13] <Andrew___> is good ting, make sweet sweet sorrel!
[02:14] <kemo> lol
[02:14] <Andrew___> since is you i'll give you....50% off
[02:14] <Andrew___> only cause is you
[02:14] <kemo> hmm
[02:14] <kemo> like yuh add 50% to the price then givvin me a good discount or wa
[02:14] <kemo> lmao!
[02:15] <Andrew___> Daz normal trini business
[02:15] <Andrew___> charge 175% and give people a lil discount
[02:15] <Andrew___> still get 125%
[02:15] <Andrew___> and yuh cyah buy sorrel on amazon!
[02:15] <kemo> who say so
[02:16] <Andrew___> i find crix on amazon de other day
[02:16] <Andrew___> i was like whey...
[02:17] <kemo> http://www.amazon.com/Caribbean-Dreams-Sorrel-Ginger-bags/dp/B002S729PM/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1334974619&sr=8-7
[02:17] <Andrew___> daz jamaican
[02:17] <Andrew___> dat not true trini ting
[02:17] <kemo> still caribbean
[02:17] <Andrew___> not trini
[02:18] <Andrew___> if it doh ay trini it not de bes
[02:18] <kemo> yuh could get ah trini flag for 1.99 us on amazon yes
[02:18] <kemo> lmao
[02:19] <Andrew___> http://www.amazon.com/Bermudez-Crix-Wholeweat-Crackers/dp/B0075YNF7Y/ref=sr_1_3?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1334974716&sr=1-3
[02:19] <Andrew___> buh wha de ras clar
[02:19] <Andrew___> wha size bag is dat!
[02:19] <Andrew___> should make a business buying stuff and selling it on amazon
[02:19] <kemo> http://www.amazon.com/Matouks-Mauby/dp/B004TZ03CM/ref=pd_sim_sbs_gro_4
[02:20] <kemo> talk nah
[02:20] <Andrew___> have a good bit of shadow benny in de yard
[02:20] <kemo> lmao!
[02:20] <Andrew___> http://www.amazon.com/CHIEF-Indian-Head-Curry-Powder/dp/B003SDIWU6/ref=pd_sim_sbs_gro_6
[02:20] <Andrew___> talk dun dey!
[02:21] <Andrew___> A jamaican store sellin trini goods.
[02:21] <kemo> hahahaha
[02:21] <Andrew___> i goin and tell crixx hire me and let me run the amazon store
[02:21] <Andrew___> get a job that i know will keep me busy
[02:22] <kemo> yuh would ever done eat ?
[02:22] <kemo> lol
[02:22] <Andrew___> not eat boy
[02:22] <Andrew___> well i would have my share of stock
[02:22] <Andrew___> but would make a good killin
[02:22] <kemo> lol
[02:22] <Andrew___> people in de states go order like mad
[02:22] <kemo> we in the wrong place ent ?
[02:22] <Andrew___> wrong business!!
[02:23] <Andrew___> stay in trini
[02:23] <Andrew___> buy straight from de factory
[02:23] <Andrew___> put them ting on amazon and just wait for the orders
[02:23] <Andrew___> or just put them up and waittill they pay andd use the money to buy the goods and ship one time
[02:24] <kemo> well i normaly buy goods and sell in trinidad
[02:24] <kemo> lol
[02:24] <kemo> campin hiking and hunting gear lol
[02:24] <kemo> and games
[02:27] <Andrew___> orrr...
[02:27] <Andrew___> so you is de man with de big knife to stay away from
[02:28] <kemo> haha
[02:28] <kemo> nah
[02:28] <kemo> i sell
[02:28] <kemo> i dont try out
[02:28] <Andrew___> true hustler
[02:28] <Andrew___> don't use what yuh sell
[02:28] <Andrew___> ah now know who police comin for next
[02:44] <Andrew___> helllooo
[02:44] <kemo> yooo
[14:47] <ebel> Trying to order 12.04 CDs for ubuntu-ie, and I meet my old friend, mandatory "state/province" field in the form.
[14:48] <ebel> I put my state (Ireland) into the Country field, and it's not common to put province on addresses here…
[14:48]  * ebel tries to remember what he put last time when he had this problem
[14:50]  * ebel gives up and puts 'N/A' :P
[15:33] <czajkowski> bkerensa: hi no the council had no meeting as there were no teams up for re approval or approval.
[17:06] <benvei> czajkowski, can you tell me what are you doing with the ubuntu-at team? ;)


[12:06] <AlanBell> Pendulum: should be an email from yaili to approve in a sec
[12:08] <Pendulum> ok
[12:09] <Pendulum> AlanBell: do you mean to the ML?
[12:09] <Pendulum> because I don't have ML access
[12:09] <Pendulum> *admin
[12:09] <AlanBell> ah, ok
[12:10] <AlanBell> just TheMuso who is asleep
[12:10] <AlanBell> yaili: did it get held for approval?
[12:11] <TheMuso> Whats up?
[12:12] <AlanBell> oh, not asleep!
[12:12] <TheMuso> Nope.
[12:12] <TheMuso> Its 9:12PM here atm.
[12:13] <AlanBell> should be a mail to the mailing list from Inayaili
[12:13] <AlanBell> or will be soon
[12:13] <TheMuso> ok thanks.
[12:14]  * AlanBell says G'day to TheMuso
[12:14] <TheMuso> I appreciate a heads up like that, because the vast majority of stuff that hits the moderatino queue is spam, and I have a habbit of dumping the entire lot, even though there was a legit message in there that I do remember seeing.
[12:16] <TheMuso> Ok coming through any minute.
[12:17] <AlanBell> the thrust of the mail is that yaili will be going through some ubuntu.com changes with us at 2:30 UK time (that is in 2:15 from now)
[12:17] <Pendulum> AlanBell: I did just get the mail :)
[12:17] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: hajour ^^
[12:17] <TheMuso> Right, I'll be in bed by then.
[12:18]  * AlanBell is off out for lunch, laters all
[14:38] <yaili> AlanBell: hello?
[14:39] <AlanBell> hello
[14:39] <yaili> AlanBell: shall we do this?
[14:39] <AlanBell> yes, lets
[14:40] <AlanBell> Pendulum: charlie-tca o/
[14:40] <charlie-tca> good morning
[14:40] <yaili> ok, so the gist of this is that we're redesigning some sections of ubuntu.com and we know there's been some problems with accessibility
[14:41] <yaili> although we can't make all the changes necessary to improve the site, as we're dealing with a lot of legacy code and bad implementations
[14:41] <yaili> it's time we have a proper chat about the main issues that have been identified
[14:41] <yaili> and take a quick look at the the new designs to see what concerns you might have regarding that
[14:41] <yaili> does this make sense?
[14:41] <Pendulum> hiya
[14:41] <AlanBell> does to me
[14:41] <Pendulum> yaili: just as an FYI, this is a logged channel
[14:42] <hajour> o/
[14:42] <yaili> yes, AlanBell informed me :)
[14:42] <Pendulum> (someone pointed out that I should make sure you knew it had public logs)
[14:42] <yaili> Pendulum: thanks :)
[14:42] <Pendulum> sounds good to me :)
[14:42] <hajour> sorry just awake
[14:43] <yaili> right, so here is one of the new designs, not 100% finalised, mind you: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/103530/features-overview-12.png
[14:43] <yaili> two notes: 1. the font size has been increased to 13px, we still can't make sizes relative for this release
[14:44] <yaili> the background has been changed, and I know you've had concerns with the contrast before
[14:44] <yaili> most of the text is on white though, and with the font size increase I'd like to know a bit more about this issue, if possible
[14:45] <AlanBell> text on white is good
[14:45] <UndiFineD> hello
[14:46] <yaili> something we thought about was alternate stylesheets, does anyone have an opinion on these?
[14:46] <yaili> UndiFineD: hello
[14:46] <Pendulum> I like alternate stylesheets :D
[14:46] <charlie-tca> That reads much better
[14:46] <hajour> is the font size able to increase more?/
[14:47] <yaili> Pendulum: what do you think would be important on an alternate stylesheet?
[14:47] <Pendulum> yaili: choice of font size and a couple options for colour combinations
[14:47] <yaili> hajour: what do you mean? make it larger overall? or is it in %s or ems?
[14:47] <Pendulum> for example, there's a condition called Irlen's Syndrome where you can't read a white background so a pale purple (or even a very pale orange) is better
[14:48] <hajour> app for to be able choose colour and front sizes
[14:48] <Pendulum> also, on the main theme, is there any way to make the white on orange text stand out a little more?
[14:48] <yaili> Pendulum: you mean on the navigation?
[14:49] <UndiFineD> it is tough to be WCAG compliant, but alternate stylesheets would help
[14:49] <hajour> the orange need to be darker if you use white fonts.i could not read it and still not
[14:50] <yaili> hajour: I think we're trying to move away from white on orange, especially for big blocks of text
[14:50] <UndiFineD> she finds that a big relief
[14:51] <yaili> UndiFineD: when we were looking at the palette, we did test this colour combination, on Snook's contrast checker, and it passes all 3 levels, what I was told is that automatic tests are of course not the same as a user with visual impairments
[14:52] <UndiFineD> yeah it absolutely depends on the individual
[14:53] <Pendulum> yaili: yes
[14:53] <hajour> sorry i am saying to UndiFineD  what i want to say.my meds do not wwork yet and its very hard to write now and i write very slow now
[14:53] <yaili> hajour: no worries
[14:53] <hajour> so UndiFineD  write what i say sometimes
[14:54] <yaili> hajour: ok
[14:55] <yaili> ok, so I think we have an idea of what the biggest issues on the site are, font-resizing, colour contrast
[14:55] <yaili> but that's the visual layer
[14:55] <yaili> do you have any comments regarding the actual markup?
[14:56] <yaili> we know that it isn't as clean as we'd like
[14:56] <charlie-tca> The line starting with overview? Is that really a line of links in black text?
[14:56] <yaili> also, we need to create a proper print style sheet :)
[14:57] <UndiFineD> hajour, is having difficulties reading sentences after one another
[14:57] <yaili> UndiFineD: yes, that has been left as it is now. I think we'll need to do some testing because we're afraid thos emight go unnoticed
[14:58] <yaili> UndiFineD: which sentences?
[14:58] <charlie-tca> There is no change of contrast to define the links vs text at all?
[14:58] <UndiFineD> Super-fast and great-looking, Ubuntu is a secure, intuitive operating system that powers desktops, servers, netbooks and laptops. Ubuntu is, and always will be, absolutely free.
[14:59] <yaili> so, except for navigation, which still needs to be sorted, the links rationale is orange is it's headings, loose text, etc., if it's inline with text, we're adding a bottom border, rather than underlined, but I don't think that is visible in this mockup
[14:59] <yaili> charlie-tca: ^
[15:00] <UndiFineD> yaili, you just lost hajour
[15:00] <UndiFineD> to much in one sentence
[15:00] <yaili> UndiFineD: in the homepage of the current site?
[15:00] <charlie-tca> The links appear to be much smaller fonts the the text, which is going to make them much harder to read
[15:00] <UndiFineD> no in your previous sentence
[15:01] <yaili> UndiFineD: oh sorry, I'll make them shorter :(
[15:01] <UndiFineD> :)
[15:01] <yaili> charlie-tca: correct, thanks for pointing that out, making a note
[15:02] <charlie-tca> What is the possiblity of looking at maybe bold fonts for links?
[15:02] <yaili> what is your view on in-browser alternate style sheets vs. in-website?
[15:02] <UndiFineD> yaili, and what about spoken text ?
[15:02] <yaili> charlie-tca: it might be an option
[15:03] <yaili> UndiFineD: what do you mean?
[15:03] <charlie-tca> If it allows me to have the text grow better, and change the links to something visible, I have no preference on where or how it happens.
[15:03] <UndiFineD> so a visitor can listen to the text on the site
[15:04] <charlie-tca> Does in-browser style sheet mean I could easily change things to make it easier for me, individually?
[15:04] <UndiFineD> pages should be read as a book
[15:05] <yaili> charlie-tca: I think with in-browser you basically have a few options of different style sheets
[15:05] <hajour> blind people need on this moment very much help to install ubuntu. if you make a spoken audio or vid. they dont need so much help to go read or they use ubuntu
[15:05] <yaili> charlie-tca: you change it in the View option, I think, for example in Firefox
[15:06] <yaili> hajour: on the install page?
[15:06] <charlie-tca> That would be fine, if those who need it the most can get to it easily.
[15:06] <hajour> this also is needed on the install page
[15:06] <charlie-tca> There seems to be something that says "if you really need this, we will hide it for you".
[15:07] <yaili> charlie-tca: what do you mean?
[15:08] <AlanBell> there are some strange links in the tab order on ubuntu.com around the banner slider thing
[15:08] <yaili> AlanBell: ah I see
[15:08] <charlie-tca> If there is an alternate style sheet in the browser, and those with visually disability have to search all over to find it, we are catering to the able body person.
[15:08] <AlanBell> just going through it in firefox with orca
[15:09] <yaili> charlie-tca: I see
[15:09] <charlie-tca> It leave the partially blind with the difficulty of trying to search for it
[15:09] <yaili> AlanBell: the homepage is being redesigned too
[15:09] <hajour> is there a option to choose style  sheet ? i not have found it .
[15:10] <charlie-tca> hajour: doesn't exist yet
[15:10] <hajour> a ok
[15:10] <charlie-tca> If we make an alternate style sheet, it should be very easy to find
[15:12] <hajour> o and a spoken audio like spoken book by classes info should be very nice to
[15:12] <yaili>  in Firefox that is under View > Page Style
[15:12] <hajour> i also mean by the program classes
[15:13] <yaili> hajour: can you think of a website that does that nicely, it would be good to see good examples
[15:13] <hajour> i don't think its somewwhere allready
[15:14] <charlie-tca> Should that happen, I would hope the reference for it would be on this page also.
[15:14] <hajour> but it would be awesome if it would come by ubuntu
[15:14] <yaili> :)
[15:14] <yaili> charlie-tca: you mean the homepage?
[15:15] <charlie-tca> Yes, sorry. Where you have the paragraph about accessibility being there, a sentence about style sheets in the browser would be helpful.
[15:15] <charlie-tca> (if it comes about)
[15:16] <yaili> charlie-tca: so if we do add one or a couple of alternative stylesheets, what colour combinations do you think should take priority? low contrast, high contrast, …?
[15:17] <charlie-tca> I would think we want low contrast, high contrast, and high contrast inverted to start with
[15:17] <charlie-tca> That gives combinations that cover about 90% of the visually disabled
[15:18] <leoquant> : http://www.nvbs.nl/  lees voor
[15:18] <UndiFineD> yaili, I am in the process of developing these pages: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/SC/index.xhtml
[15:18] <leoquant> or uitgebreid voorlezen
[15:18] <UndiFineD> nice example leoquant
[15:18] <UndiFineD> that page reads to the user
[15:18] <UndiFineD> at "lees voor"
[15:19] <yaili> thanks
[15:19] <hajour> is there also a english version from that?
[15:20] <hajour> you need to ppay for that leoquant
[15:20] <leoquant> hajour, sure, there are also sites how to build audio into websites
[15:20] <hajour> ok nice
[15:21] <hajour> because we can understand that but many from ubuntu don't
[15:21] <leoquant> hajour, you need to be a member to play the read/audio part of the site? hmmm
[15:21] <yaili> have you had any problems with using different browsers?
[15:22] <hajour> the search engine would be more improved
[15:22] <yaili> hajour: ah yes, that is on the list :)
[15:22] <yaili> it is terrible
[15:22] <hajour> its very hard to find a wiki from a person.
[15:23] <charlie-tca> yaili: yes, different browsers are an issue. Firefox is the overall best one so far.
[15:23] <charlie-tca> midori did away with the menu bar
[15:23] <hajour> also it costed me very much time to find the pages from classes
[15:23] <charlie-tca> chromium is failing badly
[15:23] <charlie-tca> epiphany I haven't tried this release
[15:23] <hajour> for example
[15:24] <hajour> last from chromium had freeze very often my notebook.
 you need to ppay for that leoquant  thats  not true by the way
[15:24] <hajour> because of that i could not do internet banking
[15:25] <hajour> it says by me for to be able to use that you need to pay 32 euro a year leoquant
[15:26] <hajour> i now only use firefox at the moment
[15:26] <leoquant> no you could hear the info without costs, i hear it loud and clear
[15:26] <hajour> yes the info from what it do
[15:27] <yaili> hajour: we've been testing on Firefox 3+, Safari, Chrome, Opera—latest versions, IE6+
[15:27] <yaili> not everything looks exactly the same though, surely
[15:27] <hajour> the problem whit chromium comes on the moment there comes a frame in a frame
[15:28] <hajour> then the trouble start
[15:28] <hajour> i think its a problem whit some older pc s and notebooks
[15:29] <hajour> because my daughters use unbuntu and i lubuntu .
[15:29] <hajour> we have the same problems whit chromium browser
[15:29] <hajour> so it have nothing to do with lubuntu
[15:29] <hajour> i have test it out
[15:30] <yaili> I need to go soon, if you had to list the top 3 things that could be improved in our sites
[15:30] <yaili> re: accessibility
[15:30] <yaili> what would those be?
[15:30] <hajour> the only one here at home who had not that problem was UndiFineD  but he cot a new pc
[15:30] <charlie-tca> as they exist or that new page?
[15:31] <hajour> 1 app for choose colour fonts.
[15:31] <hajour> 2 audio hit explane how to install ubuntu
[15:31] <hajour> 3 possibility choose sdtyle sheet
[15:31] <charlie-tca> resizable page, instead of fixed width
[15:31] <charlie-tca> contrast between text and background
[15:32] <hajour> good one charlie-tca
[15:32] <charlie-tca> When I grow the fonts big, the fixed width page screws the text readability up
[15:32] <yaili> charlie-tca: do you mean setting the width in relative size or making it go full width?
[15:32] <hajour> o and i hope you go try to get audio by classes info .
[15:33] <charlie-tca> Making the width variable, so when text grows to, say 25 or 30pt, I don't have words split between lines because the page is too narrow
[15:34] <yaili> charlie-tca: but if the CSS is made well enough, will the split lines be a problem?
[15:34] <hajour> yes that problem i have to charlie-tca
[15:34] <yaili> because sometimes wouldn't the user want to just resize the text?
[15:34] <UndiFineD> 1. stylesheets, 2. fontsize, 3. spoken text
[15:34] <yaili> without adding horizontal scrolling?
[15:34] <charlie-tca> yes, because the a long word won't fit the narrow page, no matter how good the css is
[15:35] <hajour> and that can be solved by not use so much long lines
[15:35] <charlie-tca> try hitting Ctrl++ about 10 times on the page
[15:35] <hajour> and not attache lines to each other
[15:35] <yaili> charlie-tca: is that a scenario that happens often?
[15:35] <charlie-tca> yes
[15:35] <hajour> also do not use to much difficult english words.
[15:35] <charlie-tca> My minimum fonts are set to 16pt now
[15:35] <charlie-tca> and yet, many times, I have to zoom to see the words
[15:36] <hajour> not all people who want to use ubuntu can read very good english
[15:36] <UndiFineD> yaili, http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php
[15:36] <hajour> size 16 here to
[15:36] <charlie-tca> Your page is written in 12 and 13pt fonts, I have to start at 16pt
[15:36] <yaili> charlie-tca: so you think the horizontal scrolling that comes with completely zoomed in pages is not a problem in itself?
[15:37] <charlie-tca> The horizontal scrolling is not as much of a problem as a word that splits itself into two lines
[15:37] <charlie-tca> It is very hard to read words that are not all on the same line.
[15:37] <yaili> charlie-tca: ok
[15:38] <yaili> charlie-tca: I see
[15:38] <charlie-tca> it is like reading ac
[15:38] <charlie-tca> ce
[15:38] <charlie-tca> ss
[15:38] <charlie-tca> or
[15:38] <charlie-tca> ie
[15:38] <charlie-tca> s
[15:38] <yaili> hajour: you said "i hope you go try to get audio by classes info"
[15:38] <yaili> hajour: I don't understand :(
[15:38] <hajour> yes
[15:39] <hajour> people who want to learn design or program by example . but not can read good or have eye problems. use on schools sopken books
[15:40] <hajour> in classes in ubuntu all comes later on wiki s for remember
[15:40] <hajour> but very hard to read for a part of the people
[15:40] <UndiFineD> Known Problems(10) Likely Problems (0) Potential Problems (468) HTML Validation (0) CSS Validation (562)
[15:41] <Pendulum> hajour: that's not really the same issue as what we're talking about with the website.
[15:41] <hajour> it will make the wall smaller to walk over.for to do more in ubuntu.and get the feeling to can help really  more
[15:41] <charlie-tca> yaili: I apologize if I am come across as just complaining.
[15:41] <UndiFineD> Known Problems(4) Likely Problems (25) Potential Problems (364) HTML Validation (0) CSS Validation (562)
[15:42] <UndiFineD> that is from WCAG and Stanca Act
[15:42] <hajour> for to be able learning by eexample solve bugs
[15:42] <yaili> charlie-tca: not complaining, you're being helpful
[15:42] <yaili> charlie-tca: I have to apologise because we won't have time to make many of these changes in time for release, but we want to know what we should include in our plans
[15:43] <charlie-tca> If we can get some things done, we are happy for the most part.
[15:43] <hajour> btw yaili  try to make why tto use ubuntu in so easy as possible english words.a child must be able to read it.ubuntu is world wide.
[15:43] <yaili> in terms of the background/contrast, is there a more reliable tool that we can refer to?
[15:43] <UndiFineD> yaili, I think it is already great having you here, it means things can improve
[15:43] <charlie-tca> We just find it frustrating when we can't read the official website without great difficulty
[15:43] <erkan^> which software can I install for a speaking training ?
[15:44] <hajour> not all people can read good english
[15:44] <charlie-tca> I have not found any reliable tool for contrast.
[15:44] <charlie-tca> AlanBell: do you know of any?
[15:44] <yaili> UndiFineD: thanks :)
[15:44] <erkan^> Over two days come guidedog-school and guide dog on visit by me
[15:44] <AlanBell> charlie-tca: it can probably be done with compiz filters
[15:47] <hajour> sorry for having so much remarks on the site yaili
[15:48] <yaili> hajour: no, I think we should be sorry :) you've been trying to help and providing feedback, we just need to start incorporating that in the processes rather than making it an afterthought
[15:48] <yaili> oh
[15:48] <yaili> sorry for the long line :(
[15:49] <hajour> np my meds starting to work and it is going some easier now
[15:50] <hajour> also typing.its still not very fast because i type whit only 1 finger
[15:50] <UndiFineD> yaili, as I pointed out with the checker, there are many issues with the current css for ubuntu.com
[15:50] <UndiFineD> the html issues are mostly easily resolved
[15:51] <yaili> UndiFineD: yes, that's something we need to do gradually though, as it is tied with the implementation of drupal, and that needs to be updated
[15:52] <yaili> UndiFineD: same for CSS, as you can see it's importing many unnecessary style sheets
[15:53] <yaili> so no online contrast checker that is reliable? that would be extremely helpful…
[15:53] <UndiFineD> yaili, http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php
[15:53] <UndiFineD> that helps me a lot
[15:53] <yaili> UndiFineD: ah of course, thanks :)
[15:53] <UndiFineD> it also checks for contrast a bit
[15:54] <hajour> UndiFineD,  is also busy to make a full accessible website for speechcontrol :)
[15:54] <yaili> :)
[15:56] <yaili> ok, I need to go now, this was great, thank you
[15:56] <hajour> o for i forget Pendulum  i can be less around tomorrow because i need to arrange things like meds passport and passport for to go to uds in may
[15:57] <yaili> I'll be on the channel anyway
[15:57] <UndiFineD> yaili, feel free to drop back in any time
[15:57] <hajour> i hope i have helped
[15:57] <yaili> UndiFineD: sure
[15:57] <yaili> hajour: immensely, thanks
[15:57] <charlie-tca> yaili: thanks for giving us the opportunity to discuss this with you
[15:57] <hajour> ok nice .was a lisstle felling like only complaining :)
[15:57] <hajour> little i mean
[15:58] <hajour> bah i not must try to type faster
[15:58] <yaili> hajour: no worries :)
[15:58] <yaili> charlie-tca: thanks!
[15:58] <charlie-tca> I agree, hajour
[15:58] <Pendulum> yaili: thank you so much for coming!
[15:58] <charlie-tca> It is very difficult to discuss such things without feeling like I am complaining more than helping.
[15:58] <yaili> Pendulum: thank you :D
[15:59] <hajour> thank you for listen yaili
[15:59] <yaili> charlie-tca: well, on my side, I feel like we could do a lot more, baby steps :)
[15:59] <yaili> you'll have to bear with us
[15:59] <charlie-tca> We will try to be patient
[16:00] <hajour> btw yaili  if the accessibility is better i am able to get ubuntu to be used by primary schools 18 from it in netherland
[16:00] <hajour> for to start
[16:00] <charlie-tca> I think it is a lot to throw at you, and yet, we sometimes feel like things are crawling too slow.
[16:01] <yaili> charlie-tca: so do we, there's things we can definitely do more easily than others
[16:02] <yaili> well, I'm off for today, have great day, and thanks
[16:02] <hajour> because i am also busy to get schools go use ubuntu/edubuntu
[16:03] <hajour> ok have a nice day by yaili
[16:18] <hajour> erkan^,  you allready had get a answer on your question from which software to use for speaking training ?
[16:18] <erkan^> fyes
[16:18] <erkan^> *yes
[16:19] <erkan^> sorry
[16:19] <erkan^> no, hajour
[16:19] <hajour> sorry for the delay in answering erkan^  but needed to concentrate wile my meds not where working almost
[16:20] <erkan^> i don't care, i have seen that you had busy with another cliënt speak (-:
[16:20] <charlie-tca> erkan^: the guide-dog is great news for you
[16:20] <hajour> ok just wanted to let you now the reason erkan^  :)
[16:21] <erkan^> yes, that is quick. i thought that next years , charlie-tca (-:
[16:21] <hajour> yes very good that you get a guide dog erkan^
[16:21] <erkan^> I will wait normal 2 years , but i take a guide dog after 11 mouths
[16:21] <charlie-tca> Wonderful!
[16:22] <hajour> what can the guide dog do for you out side the walking part
[16:22] <hajour> erkan^, ^
[16:22] <charlie-tca> Sometimes things do work out for us.
[16:22] <erkan^> commando
[16:22] <hajour> by example ?
[16:23] <erkan^> yes, but i have problem speak --> commando )-: i take a logopedie. but i want on computer too for speaking traing
[16:23] <erkan^> over, vooraan, links, rechts, rechtsom, ook naam noemen, enzovoort
[16:23] <erkan^> zoek paal
[16:23] <hajour> UndiFineD,  says congrats erkan^
[16:23] <erkan^> thank you :)
[16:24] <erkan^> but first see or i and guide dog fit good
[16:25] <hajour> charlie-tca,  and AlanBell  is there already a speak program what is able for simple commands to speak out ?
[16:25] <hajour> yes i understand erkan^
[16:26] <erkan^> (-:
[16:26] <hajour> we still wworking on speechcontrol erkan^
[16:27] <erkan^> yes i know
[16:27] <hajour> when you will need it erkan^ ?
[16:27] <erkan^> but i want simple speaking, without difficult words
[16:27] <erkan^> no idea, next week i have an appointment with a logopedie
[16:28] <hajour> yes i have ask for that above erkan^  :)
[16:29] <erkan^> above?
[16:29] <hajour> just stay logged in erkan^  they read back later
[16:30] <hajour> eerder in chat / hier boven = above erkan^
[16:30] <erkan^> ja
[16:31] <erkan^> hajour: I'm going to eat soon afterwards I go to visit. I'm at about 9 hours back, okay?
[16:32] <charlie-tca> hajour: I don't know the applications that well.
[16:32] <hajour> ok erkan^  then i am also around again.i need to go to cook so
[16:33] <AlanBell> yaili: thanks very much (sorry, got called away for a bit at the end)
[16:33] <erkan^> ok (-:
[16:34] <yaili> AlanBell: no worrries
[16:35] <hajour> and ok charlie-tca  :)
[16:35] <erkan^> i go eat now laters
[20:14] <erkan^> I am back (-:
[20:14] <erkan^> oh nee ik ga effe wasmachine aanzetten brb (-:
[20:29] <erkan^> hajour,
[20:29] <erkan^> ik ben terug
[20:29] <erkan^> (-:
[20:29] <erkan^> en ?
[20:29] <erkan^> oeps sorry for dutch
[20:29] <erkan^> I remember
[20:29] <erkan^> I am back
[20:29] <erkan^> and ?
[20:29] <erkan^> (-:
[20:31] <hajour> hi erkan^
[20:32] <hajour> i do not know what kind of software you need .thats why i had asked it to AlanBell
[20:33] <hajour> maybe he knows it erkan^
[20:33] <hajour> but he is on away
[20:34] <hajour> charlie-tca,  ddo you know who erkan^  can asked it about the software?
[20:34] <charlie-tca> AlanBell knows the software the best
[20:34] <hajour> btw i am very tired and i just was preparing to go to sleep
[20:35] <charlie-tca> Ask him specifically here, he will probably answer before long
[20:35] <hajour> erkan^,  see charlie-tca  answer
[20:35] <hajour> sorry all but i ggo sleeping
[20:35] <hajour> goodnight
[20:36] <erkan^> ok
[20:36] <erkan^> goodnight, hajour
[20:36] <erkan^> charlie-tca, : http://www.intaal.nl/site/intaal_shopprod.php?artcode=400001
[20:36] <erkan^> 370 euro :/
[20:36] <hajour> goodnight erkan^ :)
[20:37] <AlanBell> then hi all
[20:39] <Pendulum> o/ AlanBell
[20:39] <charlie-tca> Hello, AlanBell
[20:39] <charlie-tca> Is there any software for speech therapy/learning?
[20:40] <AlanBell> what sort of speech therapy?
[20:40] <charlie-tca> learning how to speak
[20:41] <AlanBell> for children? or for fixing a speech impediment?
[20:41] <charlie-tca> Teaching a spoken language
[20:41] <charlie-tca> erkan^: ^ ^
[20:42] <erkan^> yes
[20:42] <charlie-tca> what are you trying to do? learn spoken words?
[20:42] <AlanBell> teaching an adult a foreign language?
[20:43] <charlie-tca> I think he has to learn a few spoken commands for a guide dog
[20:43] <erkan^> AlanBell: Over two days come a guide dog visit by me. I want learn that I can speak words as left, right, go, stop, etc. i have a software on computer need, than can computer control or i speak good. i am deaf too. i have a speech teacher too, but i want a software on pc.
[20:43] <erkan^> yes charlie-tca
[20:44] <AlanBell> ok, so you can see, but are deaf?
[20:44] <charlie-tca> and needs to learn simple word speech
[20:44] <erkan^> i can littel see
[20:44] <erkan^> but on computer i have not problem
[20:44] <erkan^> yes i am deaf AlanBell
[20:45] <erkan^>  have you expierence with deaf people, AlanBell ? :S
[20:46] <AlanBell> some people use Audacity for some speech therapy work, mainly copying others and dealing with stutters and stammers and timing issues
[20:47] <AlanBell> I used to work with a deaf person and one of my friends has deaf parents
[20:47] <erkan^> ok
[20:47] <AlanBell> and when I set up astoryforbedtime.com there was quite a bit of interest from the deaf community which surprised me
[20:48] <AlanBell> but deaf parents really liked the idea of their kids listening to a mixture of voices of hearing people
[20:48] <AlanBell> because speech development for CODAs is often a bit disrupted even if the children have no hearing issues
[20:49] <erkan^> i know CODA
[20:50] <AlanBell> Child Of Deaf Adult for those not familiar with the abbreviation
[20:50] <erkan^> i ask you
[20:50] <erkan^> can deaf people learn speak for a software on computer, AlanBell ?
[20:51] <AlanBell> really not sure
[20:51] <erkan^> easy speak example "left" "right" etc..
[20:52] <erkan^> ow ok
[20:52] <maco> i suspect youd need something that tells you how to position your lips and tongue and which ways to move them
[20:53] <maco> (i find that useful when im learning another language and can't figure out how to make my mouth form the sounds necessary for the language)
[20:54] <erkan^> when I speak, my voice probably deaf language :-S
[20:56] <JanC> speech command software can work with whatever sound you make, as long as you have a different sound for every command
[20:58] <JanC> but learning to say things correctly is also useful when you are around other people of course  ;)
[20:58] <AlanBell> I would expect a dog would be able to reprogram itself too :)
[21:00] <erkan^> JanC, ik wil een eenvoudige woorden kunnen oefenen zoals links, rechts, vooraan, stop enzovoort zonder zin uitspreken, want de zin is erg ingewikkeld voor me. )-:
[21:04] <JanC> I guess you can see if you say it more or less right by comparing the sine waves (e.g. in Audacity, like AlanBell said) of a recording of yourself and a correctly pronounced version
[21:04] <AlanBell> nah, that won't work
[21:05] <AlanBell> you would be able to visually see volume and timing, tone is more detailed than you can do in your head
[21:06] <JanC> hm, maybe after applying some "effect" on the data?
[21:08] <AlanBell> well if you did a fast fourier transform you would be able to see the component sine waves (roughly speaking) but it isn't really going to help you learn to copy or say a particular waveform
[21:12] <AlanBell> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Analyze_Menu
[21:14] <AlanBell> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Track_Drop-Down_Menu
[21:14] <AlanBell> all interesting stuff that I am sure a therapist could use, but I don't think it is stuff that you can use to self-teach easily
[21:17] <JanC> well, he's not going to self-teach I think, but wants to use it in between or after sessions with his speech therapist?
[21:18] <JanC> I remember the audio lab at the college where I worked for some time had expensive Windows software  :-(
[21:19] <JanC> and of course it was written for Win 9x   :P
[21:22] <erkan^> I go sleep now
[21:22] <erkan^> i am tired


[18:38] <chachasmooth> why is there still no way to disable automated snap updates?
[18:38] <chachasmooth> suppose someone whose snap I'm running releases a new snap version which has a critical bug
[18:39] <chachasmooth> why can't system administrators decide for themselves when it's time to upgrade something?
[18:39] <chachasmooth> I don't want my system to break when I'm on holidays and can't access my server to fix it
[18:40] <chachasmooth> automated updates are nice for beginners, but there has to be a way to disable it – at least manually
[19:08] <probono> i'd even go so far as to say you should be able to update one application without interfering with the rest of the system
[19:09] <probono> and you should be able to have multiple versions of the same application in parallel (getting a new version should not automatically remove the old version)
[19:09] <probono> this is how it works in #Appimage chachasmooth
[19:28] <sincere_fox> guise, can I make a snap package that includes a webapp and postgresq