[01:09] <swift110> Hey
[01:52] <swift110> Hey
[02:54] <Ahmuck> hi.  what is the default keyboard input method for lubuntu?
[02:55] <Ahmuck> Sorry i do not accept the terms at https//wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/TermsOfService by default for using this channel.
[03:26] <teward> Ahmuck, if you do not accept the terms then you should leave the channel (by using the channel you automatically accept the Terms Of Service)
[03:26] <Ahmuck> not legally so
[03:27] <Ahmuck> to be legally binding you would need some sort of written or typed consent
[03:27] <Ahmuck> based on current privacy laws
[03:31] <Ahmuck> http://pastebin.com/YNTCnhqy
[03:32] <Ahmuck> so, it appears there are two input methods for lubuntu.  my backspace key is not operating in gnucash and i'm wondering if it is because of the two input methods
[03:33] <swift110> Hey all
[03:36] <Ahmuck> is there a spanish lubuntu channel?
[03:37] <swift110> Hmm
[03:41] <Unit193> Ahmuck: There is a Spanish channel, but it has the same terms.  If you do not accept those terms, you must /part the channel.
[03:57] <Ahmuck> what is the name of the spanish channel
[04:01] <Unit193> !es
[04:03] <Ahmuck> doing a search for xim input method using aptitude does not show it installed.
[04:18] <Unit193> Should have lxinput and xinput installed.
[04:19] <Ahmuck> the error indicates that only one input method should be installed but also indicates that two are.  ibus and xim
[04:20] <Ahmuck> i assume i should be able to remove *xin*
[04:25] <holstein> Ahmuck: dont assume.. just try removing, and see what depends on it
[04:27] <Ahmuck> ya, the problem with that is things tend to break
[04:27] <holstein> Ahmuck: *if* something breaks, put it back
[04:27] <Ahmuck> as i recall i noted a problem with networking in 14.04 and was told it wasn't a problem and then it showed up as fixed in the bug tracker.  i was right the first time
[04:28] <Ahmuck> while ubuntu plebs told me i was the one with the problem
[04:28] <holstein> Ahmuck: i would just leave it in place, if you are concerned.. why are you trying to remove it? hard drive space? look at see what size it is
[04:28] <Ahmuck> which, btw, there is still a problem with dup icons in the system tray, battery, network, etc.
[04:28] <holstein> Ahmuck: what is an "ubuntu pleb" ?
[04:28] <holstein> Ahmuck: i dont have duplicate icons..
[04:28] <Ahmuck> i'd like to understand the process of the system tray and how those icons are added
[04:29] <Ahmuck> well, seeing as you were the one telling me it wasn't broke when it clearly was as indicated by the bug reports, i would assume you are an ubuntu pleb
[04:29] <holstein> Ahmuck: one thing that can be happening for you is, you have had an issue, and tried to add or autostart applications or services to "fix" things
[04:29] <holstein> Ahmuck: ?
[04:30] <Ahmuck> it's got to be in the log of this channel i am sure
[04:30] <holstein> Ahmuck: what is an "ubuntu pleb" ? i didnt say nothings is broken.. im saying, nothing is broken here for me.. and i would be glad to volunteer some time explaing what i think could be happenging to your system
[04:30] <holstein> Ahmuck: friend, im asking you now.. what you mean by "ubuntu pleb". i am unfamiliar with that term
[04:31] <Ahmuck> "nothing is broken", not "nothings is broken".
[04:31] <Ahmuck> i'm not going to pursue it
[04:32] <holstein> Ahmuck: i would like to explain to you plusible scenarios where, for only your hardware case, things can be broken
[04:32] <holstein> Ahmuck: i literallly *cant* persue it.. i dont know what "it" is yet, and i dont have your hardware, and the behavior is not the same on my machines
[04:32] <holstein> Ahmuck: i would need you to read..
[04:32] <holstein> !bug
[04:32] <holstein> and, i would need to konw the steps by which you get to what you got to. and try and replicate it
[04:33] <holstein> Ahmuck: have you been able to get anyone else to replicate it? do you have other hardware to try and replicate it on?
[04:42] <holstein> Ahmuck: otherwise, i consider "pleb" basically name-calling, and i suggest you consider the voluntary nature of *all* the persons in this channel when trying to recieve assistance.. i understand you are frustrated, but, let us try and maintain a constructive attitude
[07:55] <primo_> Hi. I got one big problem, Im new in linux, got installed Lubuntu on 3.0 ghz 2gb ram and ati radeon 9200 video card, but I think sistem is lazy like snail
[07:57] <primo_> i try install drivers from ati site, but I dont know how, I try with catalyst and fglrx and same result all over
[07:59] <primo_> I find few answers "radeon 9200 is not supported in catalyst and flgrx and must install open drivers, but here Im stuck
[08:02] <primo_> I find solution on upstream git
[08:02] <primo_> but I dont have any idea how to install something from there ?
[08:04] <primo_> is anyone here who know how I can make that radeon 9200 usable ?  Thank you
[08:09] <primo_> loto
[08:11] <primo_> lol sorry I put google search here
[09:27] <bong1> hi i have messed around with lxpanel settings like adding the application launch bar and i have removed it, and now what used to be icons on the right side on the panel are now in the middle,  how do i get them back to the right?
[09:34] <testdr> bong1: you have modified more than only the deleted item - you can right-click on a free panel-space and in the panel-config-window select the panel-addons and check the list, special the end of the list, because there might be still something taking the space - and feel free to look with google-search for more info about lxpanel-configuration
[09:42] <bong1> testdr: there is nothing at the end of the list. and also when i open  a program , theres two windows of it running now.
[10:07] <bong1> testdr: ok  i have looked at it long and hard and i have found that it  contains 2 instances of TASK BAR (WINDOW LIST ) running.  i removed the last one and now all is back to what it should be. thanks.
[10:09] <testdr> bong1: fine - so the list of addons in the lxpanel was not empty - and maybe as a hint, if you will try more desktop-config-changes it is better to create an additional user and do those tests with such a "dumb" user (that can be deleted completely)
[10:16] <bong1> ok.  i have another issue now..   in my messing around, i have also  deleted pcfm and the browser icons in the panel which came preinstalled,  how do i get them back?
[10:23] <testdr> bong1: first, dont forget to check some simple docs for lxde -- about icons for programstarts in the panel, same procedure: right-click on free panel-space and add a starter-entry and for this starter-entry you can add programstarters (like for pcfman, firefox, terminal..)
[10:25] <testdr> bong1: this is a double procedure. You need to add such a starter-addon to put the startprograms(incl.the icons that appear) -- and from your question about double-started-programms: a icon-starter in the lxpanel is started with only one (1) mouse-click and 2 mouse-clicks will start double
[10:25] <testdr> bong1: you may check: http://wiki.lxde.org/en/LXPanel
[10:34] <bong1> testdr: when i right click on the panel, there is nothing that says add a starter entry.
[10:35] <testdr> bong1: warning for this procedure! You can reset the lxpanel to the default, if you "cat" the default over your local config like this:  cat /usr/share/lxpanel/profile/Lubuntu/panels/panel   .config/lxpanel/Lubuntu/panels/panel
[10:35] <testdr> bong1: after this "reset" you have to logut and login - (instead of killing the panel)
[10:37] <testdr> bong1: sorry for my bad english - i dont know the exact name of this panel-addon (for program-starter-list) in the english version
[10:38] <testdr> bong1: and the "cat"-sample-command above is missing the   >  to overwrite your user-panel-config -- cat only display the content in the terminal
[10:41] <bong1> testdr:  is what youre saying the same as  1 down vote accepted
[10:41] <bong1>
[10:41] <bong1> Copy the default config
[10:41] <bong1> sudo cp /usr/share/lxpanel/profile/Lubuntu/panels/panel ~/.config/lxpanel/Lubuntu/panels
[10:41] <bong1> Change owner:group to the local account from root.
[10:41] <bong1> sudo chown owner:group  ~/.config/lxpanel/Lubuntu/panels/panel
[10:41] <bong1> now restart the panel
[10:41] <bong1> lxpanelctl restart
[10:43] <testdr> bong1: using chown needs your user-account and group-account, not this dummy-entry owner:group
[10:44] <testdr> bong1: thats why i suggested to do a "cat" (=copy the content over the content of your panel-config), because then the owner and group rights would not be changed and still be yours
[10:45] <testdr> bong1: in the other way - you may end with an readonly panel-config, that you as the user cannot change
[10:52] <testdr> bong1: after some search found this (and the last entry without sudo seems better): http://askubuntu.com/questions/64631/how-to-restore-the-default-lubuntu-panel
[10:53] <Unit193> Correct, dropping 'sudo' is a good choice.
[10:55] <bong1> just logout, not shutdown?
[10:56] <Unit193> logout and back in would do it.
[10:56] <testdr> bong1: yes - this is better than this lxpaneltctl restart thing, because this sometimes ended with 2 running panels
[10:57] <bong1> ok will try this.
[11:02] <bong1> beautiful. that did it. thanks testdr and unit193.
[11:07] <Unit193> Congrats.
[11:08] <bong1> there was once  a web page to change the date formats. where was that again?
[11:11] <Unit193> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/strftime
[11:11] <Unit193> Something like that?
[11:16] <bong1> yes i remember strftime but its kind of automatic. just select what we want and copy paste it to digital clock settings.
[22:13] <talsamon> hello - can't login after update to linux-headers-<IP_ADDRESS> - login screen returns back to login screen - xsession-errors unable to open display ":0" No protocol specified
[22:13] <talsamon> no errors in Xorg.0.log
[22:16] <phillw> talsamon: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/85782/error-no-protocol-specified-when-running-from-remote-machine-via-ssh
[22:16] <talsamon> phillw, no i am starting not from a remote machine, normal boot
[22:17] <talsamon> i have reinstalled xorg xserver lightdm nvidia - doesn't help
[22:18] <phillw> talsamon: you have done a sudo operation, which really breaks the system
[22:19] <talsamon> i make apt-get update apt-get upgrade - next boot i can't login
[22:19] <talsamon> linux-header-<IP_ADDRESS>-generic was half-installed
[22:19] <phillw> we can battle, or you can bite the bullet...
[22:20] <talsamon> f... complete reinstall ?
[22:20] <Unit193> !xhangs
[22:20] <talsamon> ubottu, I have also tried this...
[22:21] <Unit193> talsamon: Can you try the guest account?
[22:21] <talsamon> no
[22:21] <phillw> talsamon:  I'd suggest a seperate home 1st... makes re-install much easier as you keep all your stuff.
[22:21] <talsamon> just a moment i will try
[22:22] <phillw> Unit193: I'll leave talsamon in your tender mercies :)
[22:23] <talsamon> ok, bye :
[22:29] <phillw> talsamon: do not run away :) we're here to help.
[22:30] <talsamon> wait a minute a testing something
[22:33] <phillw> talsamon: be careful of saying such words... Borg mode now enforced....
[22:33] <talsamon> ??
[22:35] <phillw> talsamon:  you will  be absored into the collective....  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)
[22:36] <talsamon> don't believe i am indigestible (unsure my english is not very good)
[22:36] <menace> Hi, i have on lubuntu 14.04 (with updates) in kvm/libvirt/qxl/spice a lubuntu 14.04 guest-install and i sometimes get font errors in my display. but on launchpad i just find errors for $ubuntu 13.10?
[22:36] <Unit193> phillw: How about we leave that for the offtopic channels?
[22:36] <menace> any idea?
[22:38] <menace> that font error is really frustrating..
[22:38] <phillw> Unit193:  you tell me (23:13:27) talsamon: hello - can't login after update to linux-headers-<IP_ADDRESS> - login screen returns back to login screen - xsession-errors unable to open display ":0" No protocol specified
[22:39] <Unit193> phillw: What?
[22:39] <Unit193> menace: What errors exactly??
[22:39] <phillw> I see it as a lubutu bug
[22:40] <menace> like that: http://imgur.com/r/linux/aG2dL6u
[22:40] <menace> it is a *ubuntu bug in my view
[22:40] <menace> but that is not my imgur
[22:40] <Unit193> Hah, oh dear.
[22:41] <menace> urgs.. my lady wants to go to bed..
[22:41] <menace> gn8
[22:41] <phillw> menace: I'm just a tester and Unit193 is a boss on IRC, so he can tell people to go away.
[22:42] <Unit193> ...
[22:42] <phillw> Unit193: well, that is one less person to report bugs... well done.
[22:43] <Unit193> talsamon: Were you able to test another account?
[22:43] <talsamon> Unit193, guestaccount also not works
[22:44] <talsamon> I have tried reinstall xorg, xserver, lightdm and nvidia-driver
[22:45] <talsamon> Unit193, after updated to linux-header-<IP_ADDRESS> - i cant'login, linux-header-<IP_ADDRESS> was half installed
[22:45] <Unit193> Mmmm, this sounds like a but I remember somewhere.  If you switch to a TTY, you should be able to fix that.  1. Is lightdm-gtk-greeter fully up to date?  2. What session have you selected?
[22:45] <talsamon> I purged it and reinstalled it without problems, but this all nothings help - I am back on the login-screen
[22:46] <talsamon> Unit193,  I had openbox
[22:46] <talsamon> have
[22:46] <Unit193> Top right there should be a session selection, is that what it says now?
[22:47] <phillw> talsamon: you can do a complete install of kernel... not too much fun, but do-able
[22:47] <talsamon> hmm
[22:48] <talsamon> If try this and something...I consider a complete new install, I think it's faster
[22:49] <phillw> talsamon: try http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35
[22:50] <phillw> it was written by the now defunct UBT team It is safe.
[22:51] <talsamon> Thank, I will try it
[22:57] <phillw> talsamon: if that does not work, please do ask.
[22:58] <talsamon> In moment I make a disc-check...
[23:02] <phillw> talsamon: waits
[23:23] <talsamon> bye for the moment, i will back later... ;-))


[01:29] <wookey> infinity: OK, with that stage2 patch and removing --enable-multiarch it at least completes a cross-build here
[01:34] <twb> Remind me, what's the SoC that's pre-armv7, but still being made?  IIRC there's r-pi and one other.
[01:40] <wookey> I don;t suppose the rpi soc is still being made, just the boards, using up large stock of videocore 2xxx chips
[01:41] <wookey> pxa270 is still available I believe
[01:41] <twb> Hum, OK
[01:41] <wookey> and various marvell devices which are v6
[01:41] <twb> The context is me telling people to stop getting excited about rpi because armv6 is obsolete and sucky :-)
[01:41] <wookey> yes, keep doing that. I do it too
[01:42] <twb> Ah, right.  My memory said it was marvell dove, but that's v7
[01:42] <wookey> OK I thought 'dove'. WHat about armada? Maybe it's an earlier one that is v6
[01:44] <infinity> dove and armadap are all the same general family.
[01:44] <wookey> armada seems to be v7
[01:44] <infinity> There are some v6 devices in said family, but none worth talking about.
[01:44] <twb> dove sucks because it has no NEON, not because it is pre-v7
[01:44] <infinity> Anyhow, telling people to move to v7 is sane messaging, IMO.
[01:45] <wookey> so, yes it's geting hard to find things still made which aren;t v7
[01:45] <infinity> Not that the Pi being v6 is a problem, per se, it's that it's v6 and being used as a general-purpose machine, instead of a fun pseudo-embedded student/hacker device.
[01:45] <infinity> Pretty much all general-purpose ARM computing should be moving/moved to v7 and v8, IMO.
[01:45] <wookey> and that we still haven't put ISA info into dpkg metadata
[01:45] <infinity> (I might be biased)
[01:46] <wookey> we're going to get the same prob with v8 32 bit ISA at some point...
[01:46] <infinity> wookey: What v8 32-bit ISA?
[01:46] <wookey> it'd be nice to put the machinery in so dpkg can just DTRT
[01:46] <wookey> aarch32
[01:46] <infinity> wookey: Every single time I've brought this up in the past, I've been told there isn't one, and 32-bit on v8 is v7.
[01:47] <wookey> no there are a few extra instructions
[01:47] <wookey> so it's the same ABI, but new instructions
[01:47] <infinity> Well, yes, I'm sure it's possible to do an x32-like aarch32, I was told (repeatedly) that no one was going to. :/
[01:47] <infinity> Oh, same ABI as v7?
[01:47] <infinity> Well, that's not a big deal.
[01:47] <wookey> and yes at some point people will want to do 'x32 for arm' - just watch them...
[01:48] <infinity> Same ABI and new insns just means glibc caps.
[01:48] <wookey> the point is that ABI is not sufficient to determine compatibility - you need ISA as well and we don;t write that down anywhere
[01:48] <wookey> agreed, but dpkg needs to know too so it can download the right version
[01:48] <infinity> We don't write that down because we intend for an entirely self-contained distro to have the same basline ISA.
[01:48] <infinity> Anything else is madness.
[01:49] <infinity> Err, no.
[01:49] <twb> infinity: doing x32 on x86 systems is already a dirty hack
[01:49] <infinity> "download the right version"?
[01:49] <wookey> well not try to install versions that won't run
[01:49] <infinity> wookey: You can't have two armhf debs in the same version.
[01:49] <infinity> This isn't actually a problem.  At all.
[01:49] <wookey> i.e ubuntu armhf packages on RPis
[01:49] <infinity> If you don't want to install wrong-ISA debs, don't use the wrong apt source.
[01:50] <infinity> wookey: Or Ubuntu i386 debs on Debian. :P
[01:50] <wookey> why not make it possible to enforce that?
[01:50] <infinity> wookey: This isn't a problem.  It's really not.
[01:50] <wookey> It's not hard to fix though either.
[01:50] <infinity> I disagree.
[01:50] <wookey> just write down the caps used in the metadata
[01:50] <infinity> You have zero idea what the contents of the deb are without disassembling.
[01:51] <infinity> You can make some sort of assumptions based on your custom copy of dpkg, if that's what you mean.
[01:51] <wookey> you know when you build it - or at least you know what you meant to build
[01:51] <infinity> But, again, I don't see how this is a problem.
[01:51] <infinity> You're running Raspbian, you install Raspbian debs.
[01:51] <infinity> People keep making this sound like a big deal and it's not.
[01:51] <wookey> No-one tries to install3rd party debs on their rpis?
[01:52] <infinity> I don't really care if they do.
[01:52] <wookey> from all those bazillions of ppas?
[01:52] <wookey> the users might care
[01:52] <infinity> In your scenario, people trying to install Ubuntu debs on Debian wouldn't be allowed.
[01:52] <infinity> (And they shouldn't anyway, but now dpkg would enforce it)
[01:52] <wookey> only if their debian hardware couldn't run v7
[01:52] <wookey> in which case that would be good
[01:52] <infinity> I'm talking i386, actually.
[01:53] <wookey> and this is useful for mplayer-686 and other stuff currently bodged into the packagenames
[01:53] <infinity> Okay, so you're saying that dpkg should check the running system to determine caps at that moment.
[01:53] <infinity> That entirely breaks portability of system roots.
[01:54] <infinity> It's not useful for mplayer-686 at all.
[01:54] <wookey> If I told it to yes. I expect I'm allowed to turn it off for cross-choots
[01:54] <infinity> Because you can still only have one mplayer.deb in any apt source.
[01:54] <infinity> So if you want an optimised one, you need another package name.
[01:54] <wookey> but I can have more than one apt source
[01:54] <infinity> But mplayer-686 isn't in another source.
[01:54] <infinity> And shouldn't be.
[01:54] <infinity> That's user hostile.
[01:55] <infinity> I think you're trying to solve a problem "normal" people don't have with a nerd solution that only nerds will understand.  And nerds don't need it.
[01:55] <wookey> I'm tryingto make it possible for dpkg to tell you that what you are instaling won;t run on this machine so are you sure you want to install it.
[01:56] <wookey> That doesn't seem user-hostile to me
[01:56] <infinity> Most of your use-cases are user-hostile.
[01:56] <infinity> Like, adding extra sources to get optimised packages.
[01:56] <sim590> anyone knows how I can get the battery level on the TF101 under lilstevie's kernel (ubuntu/debian)? I looked up the folder "/sys/class/power_supply" for that information but all I can get is a % level.
[01:57] <wookey> I'm not forcing anyone to do that, but it would become possible. and you could now easily optimise _lots_ of stuff instead of just a few things
[01:57] <infinity> wookey: Either way, dpkg installs system roots.  Saying "that won't run on the hardware you have RIGHT NOW" is meaningless.
[01:57] <infinity> wookey: I could install a sysroot on i686 and give it to someone with an i585 and it won't run.
[01:58] <infinity> wookey: And no, it wouldn't let you optimise anything in the primary archive any more than you already do.
[01:58] <wookey> sometimes. most of the time stuff is installed onthe system it's going to be run on.
[01:58] <infinity> wookey: And optimising out-of-archive is *drum rull* user-hostile.
[01:58] <wookey> you can check against the target if you know what it's going to be
[01:58] <infinity> wookey: That's a blatant lie in the Ubuntu case (or any live installer).
[01:58] <infinity> wookey: The install is always done on a system that isn't the target.
[01:59] <wookey> OK, so you don;t think it's useful. fair enough
[01:59] <infinity> I think people need to learn to detect CPU features.
[01:59] <infinity> Your example above (mplayer) actually has.
[02:00] <sim590> I want W*h (Joules) or coulons (that's in french though.. its intensity (c/s)
[02:00] <infinity> When I run it on my machine, it turns on all sort of fancy SSE3 and other crap that it doesn't turn on on an older box.
[02:00] <wookey> OK, so then it doesn;t need to ask for caps it can live without
[02:00] <wookey> whichis fine
[02:01] <infinity> I guess my point is that this is solving a non-problem for pretty much all but the weird case of people mixing and matching distributions.
[02:01] <infinity> And the answer to that is "stop doing that".
[02:01] <wookey> but what if the server people start asking for lots of v8 optimised binaries because it's loads faster?
[02:02] <wookey> we can just say no
[02:02] <infinity> I've certainly seen people in #debian-arm whine that packages installed from debian-armhf don't work on Raspbian, I don't think the whining would change any if dpkg stopped them before installing.
[02:02] <wookey> but if we can easily accomodate it with a check I don;t see why that's bad
[02:02] <infinity> Do you think the "server people" are going to ask for 32-on-64 anytime soon anyway?
[02:02] <infinity> Anyhow.
[02:02] <infinity> This doesn't solve that.
[02:02] <infinity> You still need either a new dpkg arch, or a new distro.
[02:02] <twb> Can someone confirm that current ubuntu armel uses -mfpu=softfp (i.e. doesn't require hardware FPU)?
[02:03] <infinity> Cause you can't.  Have.  The.  Same.  Deb.  Twice.  In.  The.  Same.  Archive.
[02:03] <wookey> don't know - they might do if they have a lot of 32-bit binaires they cant get 64-bit versions of. Hopefully not.
[02:03] <twb> It's not very clear on the wiki ARM article
[02:03] <infinity> twb: There is no ubuntu armel.
[02:03] <twb> infinity: hah, so it's just "arm" now?
[02:03] <infinity> twb: Did that help?
[02:03] <infinity> twb: armhf.  We dropped armel.
[02:04] <infinity> twb: And armhf most definitely required an FPU.  vfpv3-d16
[02:04] <infinity> s/required/requires/
[02:04] <twb> It would be nice if https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM made that more obvious
[02:04] <wookey> it's a wiki....
[02:05] <infinity> wookey: If they want to install multiarch arm64/armhf, they're going to end up with baseline v7 armhf binaries unless they rebuild the archive.
[02:05] <infinity> wookey: And if they rebuild the archive, we're in "not the same distribution" land.
[02:06] <wookey> infinity: yes, but I don;t see why a distro _has_ to only support one baseline per ABI. If we labelled them we could provide more variants
[02:06] <wookey> that would have made the rasbian's people's lives a lot easier, for example
[02:07] <wookey> but OK. I get it that you're not keen :-)
[02:07] <raster> wookey: rpi is just a piece of pretty crappy hw. deal with it. its a very outdated instructionset versions pushed out for cheap.
[02:07] <raster> deal with it. you'll have to jump through hoops and make custom pkgs for it as everyone else has moved on to armv7 фі ф ифіудшту
[02:07] <raster> err
[02:07] <raster> armv7 as a baseline
[02:08] <wookey> I know.
[02:08] <wookey> it's just an example.
[02:08] <wookey> because people _have_ gone to the trouble of rebuilding the whole distro
[02:08] <wookey> for a different ISA
[02:09] <twb> Hm, arm builds are still on ports.ubuntu.com?  I'd have thought it'd move to archive.ubuntu.com when it was blessed as a fully supported arch
[02:09] <raster> reality is armv7hf+neon should be the baseline
[02:09] <raster> and thats a very decent baseline with not much above it
[02:09] <wookey> twb: sadly not
[02:09] <infinity> wookey: Err, we can't do more than one without them being in separate archives.
[02:09] <raster> in x86 land we have also a wide range
[02:09] <infinity> twb: archive/ports has nothing to do with supported, but with popularity/traffic.
[02:10] <wookey> right, and it'd be nice if those archives were labelled with the capabilities needed to run them - that's all
[02:10] <raster> most of the compiling is fine-tuning small percentages of per increase
[02:10] <raster> the few where its big should be the task of the software itself to detect at runtime
[02:10] <infinity> raster: Exactly.
[02:10] <raster> most of that is in in either gfx/video/audio
[02:11] <raster> and the specific apps and/or libs already "compile all possibilities in" and auto-detect at runtime
[02:11] <infinity> Like the canonical examples of ffmpeg/libav, libjpeg-turbo, and mplayer.
[02:11] <raster> eg they probe for mmx/sse/sse3/4 or neon etc.
[02:11] <infinity> Which all do lovely autodetection these days.
[02:11] <raster> and they enable specific optimized codepaths for that
[02:11] <wookey> youre' not telling me anything I don;t already know
[02:11] <raster> they COULd recompile the same C code into multiple .o's and link them in with differingt entry symbols
[02:12] <raster> and pick the appropriate one based on detected cpu arch. this generally tho is a much lower gain than the hand-crafted simd asm they carry and detect for.
[02:13] <raster> then why does the PACKAGE SYSTEM need to have anything to do with this?
[02:13] <raster> if u already know it?
[02:13] <raster> and already know that its solved within the code of libs/binaries?
[02:13] <doko_> you still can use hwcap for these cases
[02:14] <wookey> a few binaries do this - the great majority don't.
[02:14] <infinity> wookey: The vast majority don't need to.
[02:14] <raster> i just wish unxi had a better way to detect instrset caps than "try some code and see if u SIGILL" (/proc/cpuinfo is not portable)
[02:14] <wookey> agreed.
[02:15] <raster> then whats the point here?
[02:15] <wookey> but if we added simple hwcaps info then peope could if they wanted
[02:15] <raster> if those that need to (ie have a decent gain) do it already.. why does the pkgssystem need to bother?
[02:15] <wookey> just to save people from installing binaries they can;t run
[02:15] <raster> this should never be done at pkgs install time
[02:15] <raster> its horrible
[02:15] <wookey> e.g v7 on v5 hardware
[02:15] <infinity> And we're back to square one. Why would they be installing a distro they can't run? :P
[02:16] <wookey> why is it 'horrible'
[02:16] <raster> it is ASSUMINg the ultimate target system is the same one that is doing the installing now
[02:16] <wookey> raster: read the backlog :-)
[02:16] <raster> thats a horrid assumption i KNOw breaks continually
[02:16] <infinity> raster: You're making all my same arguments for me again. :)
[02:16] <wookey> I don't thin kthis conversation is getting anyone anwyhere
[02:16] <raster> things like scratchbox, OBS, making debootstrap chroots etc...
[02:16] <infinity> Which is great, I can just tag you in and go have dinner.
[02:16] <raster> heheheh
[02:16] <raster> :)
[02:17] <raster> tbh... pkg installation should be not much more than "unpack files"
[02:17] <twb> http://paste.debian.net/232365/ did I get everything right?
[02:17] <raster> anything more than that (other than handling dependencies) is a workaround broken software :)
[02:18] <wookey> it could be  'unpack best avaialble files'
[02:18] <raster> it shoudl just ship all possible needed files and choose at runtime
[02:19] <infinity> twb: Except for the "Ubuntu armel is supported" bit.  It's not a supported arch in 12.04 or 12.10.  Not in any official capacity.
[02:19] <raster> and that choice is in the hands of the sw devs to deal with
[02:19] <raster> not packaging
[02:19] <twb> infinity: thanks
[02:19] <wookey> but every package does actually _have_ a specified ISA
[02:19] <wookey> we just don;t write down what it is in the packages
[02:19] <infinity> twb: Also, the SATA comment is out-of-date WRT many modern SoCs.
[02:20] <infinity> twb: Lots of A15s have native SATA, and some A9 packages do.
[02:20] <twb> OK
[02:20] <infinity> twb: And some clever setups, like the Trimslice, use PCIe SATA on a native PCIe port.
[02:21] <infinity> wookey: If we specify the baseline ISA for the distro, we don't need it encoded at the packaging level and muddied up.
[02:22] <infinity> (Now, what we define and what gets spit out of the other end of people's broken Makefiles is another story, but that's no different in your world, and those are just bugs that need fixing)
[02:24] <wookey> do libc6 and libc6-686 have the same baseline ISA?
[02:25] <wookey> how does dpkg currently choose the best one?
[02:25] <infinity> wookey: dpkg doesn't, you do.
[02:25] <infinity> wookey: There's not mutually exclusive, you can install both.
[02:25] <wookey> right but I'm a clueless newbie - how should I know?
[02:25] <infinity> wookey: They use ld.so hwcaps.
[02:25] <infinity> wookey: We tend to just install both for you, to be fair. :P
[02:26] <infinity> wookey: The only reason it's two packages instead of one (like, say, libssl which ships several libs in one package) is for size reasons.
[02:26] <infinity> For people who really, really only want the baseline one and want a tiny system.
[02:28] <infinity> The only way to be remotely user-friendly and have portable roots is to ship code that works everywhere and optimised at runtime.
[02:28] <infinity> s/optimised/optimises/
[02:29] <infinity> Rebuilding the distro 9 times for 9 different hwcap combinations also turns into a debugging nightmare.
[02:29] <wookey> right. but we probably wouldn't do 9
[02:29] <infinity> If you isolate that to just a few select binaries with maintainers who actually care about the optimisations, they can also care about debugging the weirdness.
[02:30] <infinity> wookey: Who's "we"?  If you gave this option to i386 users a decade ago, we'd have 386/486/486+(that insn I cant remember the name of)/586/686/686+cmov/686+3dnow123/686+sse123/etc by now.
[02:31] <infinity> wookey: Every new fancy, people would want an optimised build "just cause".
[02:31] <raster> -funroll-loops
[02:31] <raster> wewt
[02:31] <infinity> Even if, half the time, the auto-vectorisation and other bits are so mediocre that any gains you might have gotten are lost elsewhere and it's a wash. :P
[02:32] <raster> auto-vectorization candiates are mostly handled by hand-crafted asm anyway
[02:32] <infinity> As well they should be.
[02:32] <infinity> And once you're hand-crafting, runtime detection is, like, two extra instructions.
[02:32] <infinity> So, don't be a lazy git.
[02:33] <infinity> It's a shame that hwcaps isn't portable outside the GNU world.
[02:33] <infinity> Cause "you can just ask glibc" is also quite nice.
[02:35] <wookey> well distros get to choose how many falvours are worth supporting
[02:36] <wookey> but without this labelling you can only support one ISA flavour per ABI
[02:36] <wookey> yes that mostly works
[02:37] <wookey> but it's not hard to imagine a world where it might be reasonable to have 2
[02:39] <wookey> hmm. I only came here to say that I'd build a libc, not to have a half-hour argument :-)
[02:39] <wookey> hmm. hour in fact
[02:40] <wookey> at least one of us is very argumentative :-)
[02:40] <infinity> I blame you. :)
[02:40] <infinity> And yeah, I know cross-base works now, I tested it before I committed the glibc fix.
[02:41] <infinity> It'll all get uploaded soon, but the buildds are currently having heart attacks.
[02:41] <infinity> So, I think I'll watch a movie, then do uploads. :P
[02:42] <infinity> wookey: You should be in bed, young man.
[02:42] <wookey> yeah it's getting that way. I'll just kick off another perl build before giving up for the night
[02:42] <wookey> getting it to cross _and_ multiarch is proving to be annoying
[02:43] <doko_> young?
[02:44] <infinity> doko_: Compared to you, I'm sure he is.
[02:44] <doko_> hmm, he doesn't look so
[02:45] <infinity> Doesn't he?  He looks like the sort who probably started balding at 17.
[02:45] <infinity> He probably also hates it when people talk about him in the third person when he's right here.
[02:53] <wookey> I beat a young man at squash today
[02:53] <wookey> his age is about the same as number of years since I last played...
[02:54] <wookey> fortunatey he was rubbish at it...
[03:24] <wookey> infinity: want to guess how old I am ? :-)
[03:24] <infinity> wookey: My guess is "younger than doko".  But that's a wide range.  He remembers WWII.
[07:48] <dholbach> good morning
[09:24] <ogra_> xnox, awesome fix for usb-creator !!!
[09:34] <xnox> ogra_: not my idea ;-) but i'll take the credit for uploading.
[09:35] <ogra_> heh
[11:20] <janimo> ogra_, xnox does usb-creator start when a nexus is plugged in?
[11:21] <xnox> janimo: or package upgraded.
[11:21] <xnox> (the latter is a bug currently)
[11:22] <ogra_> yes, and in on other occasions :)
[11:22] <ogra_> -in
[11:22]  * xnox should fix it otherwise i'll be pinged about it all day long.
[11:23] <ogra_> haha
[11:24] <janimo> I was just wondering that for many users it may be just another android device they want to exchange files with and not necessarily flash ubuntu on
[11:25] <xnox> janimo: it checks for nexus7 only. and i was thinking to also check if fastboot detects it.
[11:26] <janimo> right, nexus7 only.
[11:26] <xnox> but yeah, it shouldn't popup unless nexus7 is in the fastboot bootloader mode.
[11:27] <janimo> ok, so no surprises for people who don't know what bootloader mode is
[12:00] <doko> ogra_, is there no 3.8 kernel for the panda board?
[12:08] <ogra_> doko, ask ppsati ... iirc he works on devicetree support in our main kernel to make pandas work ... but thats not done yet
[12:08] <ogra_> (and will stand and fall with support for the binary driver)
[12:10] <ogra_> the current images are still on the quantal kernel until thats done
[17:55] <sveinse> After debugging for a day of the failing initramfs script I've found that umount a loopback device in initramfs, leaves the losetup device bound to the target file. Shouldn't umount handle losetup -d itself? It certainly did so for binding/finding an available loop device
[21:52] <prpplague> if anyone is interested i have two brand new phytec omap4 kits for sale as well as a lightly used snowball board - give me a ping if you are interested


[00:42] <ayan_> is tangerine down?
[00:42] <bjf> ayan: yes
[00:43] <bjf> ayan: more like, it's unreachable at this time
[00:43] <ayan> heh.  okay.
[00:43]  * ayan will retry later.
[00:43] <bjf> ayan: we think it's a networking issue and since most of IS is in oakland now ...
[00:43] <ayan> oh!
[00:44] <bjf> ayan: yup, not likely to get fixed anytime soon
[00:44] <ayan> okay -- i need to build kerel with some firewire patches from upstream.
[00:44]  * ayan will slum it and use his own machine.
[08:07]  * apw yawns
[08:17]  * xnox passes a cup of Dolce Gusto Grande coffee to apw
[08:17] <apw> hmmm that sounds rather nice
[08:18] <ohsix> lots of sugar coffee
[08:18] <apw> hasn't been through a cat has it ?
[09:43] <cking> apw, i've got this in my sources.list: http://ppa.launchpad.net/webupd8team/java/ubuntu
[11:56] <apw> dileks, thanks for the emails with the testing results, that is good feedback thanks
[12:02] <dileks> apw: yeah. unfortunately, testcase scripts are rare for overlayfs. but the one from jordi I liked very much
[12:03] <dileks> maybe, I should mention that squashfs-tools are required
[12:07] <dileks> apw: will you send your inode_only_permissions stuff (again) plus 3.4 fixes as a series to miklos and linuxfs-devel ML?
[12:07] <apw> dileks, thats the plan indeed, want to do that today
[12:07] <dileks> good
[12:08] <dileks> you can give me a pointer to ubuntus live-system framework?
[12:08] <apw> tgardner, ogasawara, am looking at the quantal build failure
[12:08] <tgardner> apw, didn't know there was one yet.
[12:09] <apw> lacking a build depend on flex by the looks of it
[12:09] <dileks> maybe I tease dba on #debian-live with overlayfs
[12:10] <apw> dileks, i beliebe we use live-builder for most of it
[12:11] <dileks> OK
[12:30] <apw> tgardner, resolve_symbol_wait() implies we waited for the module init
[12:30] <apw>                 printk(KERN_WARNING "%s: gave up waiting for init of module %s.\n",
[12:31] <tgardner> apw, yeah, was just looking at kernel/module.c
[12:33] <apw> tgardner, in init_module we call do_mod_ctors() which looks to be where the module inits are called, then we call wake_up(&module_wq) only after we have done that and marked it live, so i think module_init(xx) has been called
[12:33] <tgardner> apw, actually, that only makes sense. it just about _has_ to be that way, else nothing would work.
[12:34] <apw> cirtainly it would be hard to write anything which initialised anything ... so i tend to concur it has to be intended
[12:37] <tgardner> apw, I don't think do_mod_ctors(mod) calls the module init function. it looks like that is the job of do_one_initcall() 'cause thats the only place that an error return is recognized.
[12:42] <apw> tgardner, yeah same logical place either way
[12:43] <tgardner> apw, right.
[12:43] <tgardner> apw, its like they've implemented the ability to call C++ constructors, but not used it anywhere.
[12:43] <tgardner> there must be some other kind of constructor
[12:46] <apw> tgardner, its do_one_initcall, as apparently there can only be one initcall per module
[12:46] <tgardner> apw, that is also correct, lest you incur a linker error
[13:05] <ogasawara> apw: thanks for fixing up the build failures, am curious why the test builds didn't see the same error
[13:05] <ogasawara> apw: will get it uploaded
[13:06] <apw> ogasawara, already uploaded and building
[13:06] <ogasawara> apw: ah cool, thanks
[13:06] <apw> ogasawara, we install the builddeps at chroot build time
[13:07] <apw> and so we never see this kind of thing, its something we need to think about probabally
[13:07] <apw> how to best do it and still be quick, perhaps have some virgin chroots which we can use
[13:07] <apw> for that
[13:10] <apw> ogasawara, bah the archive is inconsistant for i386 right now, somethign wrong with docbook-utils ... i suspect we need to wait a bit and retry it
[13:10] <ogasawara> apw: ack
[13:10] <apw> given that part of your build was ok i think, if not then we'll want to disable docs for a bit
[13:11] <apw> ogasawara, just confirmed your 1.1 got past this, so it may be transitional ...
[13:11] <ogasawara> apw: yep, it would appear so
[13:14] <tgardner> ogasawara, apw: shouldn't we be uploading to -proposed ? that way we can get all of the components built, then just pocket copy.
[13:15] <apw> as far as i know that is only safe in freezes
[13:15] <tgardner> apw, actually, I think its meant to be policy for Quantal.
[13:16] <tgardner> prolly should ask cjw
[13:17] <ogasawara> tgardner: I'll follow up with the release team
[13:19] <tgardner> ogasawara, Rick has proposed that the release pocket always be installable. given our upload order we rarely have issues with that, but it might be simpler to just upload to -proposed and get everything built.
[13:19] <ogasawara> tgardner: yep, it was easier with proposed as we'd just shove all the packages up at the same time
[13:22]  * tgardner notes the combination of mumble+pulseaudio consumes 55% of the CPU whilst doing absolutely nothing.
[13:26] <ogasawara> tgardner: cjwatson confirmed that for now while the archive is still settling it doesn't matter much if we upload to the release pocket or -proposed
[13:27] <ogasawara> tgardner: once it does settle though, we should go the route of uploading to -proposed first
[13:27] <tgardner> ogasawara, ack
[14:20] <dileks> apw: its live-build not -builder. dunno if (3.0~a24-1ubuntu1) is recent enough
[14:20] <dileks> debian/sid has live-build (3.0~a47-1)
[14:28] <dileks> is there a repo containing higher versions of live-build/live-boot?
[14:30] <dileks> http://nopaste.snit.ch/136914
[14:36]  * ogasawara back in 20
[14:57] <cking> tgardner, here are some notes I crufted up yesterday: http://zinc.canonical.com/~cking/fs-tests/ureadahead-notes.txt
[14:57] <tgardner> cking, thanks
[14:59]  * cking slips off early today, started at 7am...
[16:28] <apw> bjf, yes things going well on that front
[16:28] <apw> bjf, but i've bust my machine here :/
[16:29] <apw> i can hear you but the load on my machine is over 20, so i am not going to be talking to you for a bit
[16:29] <apw> till i work out what the hell i did
[16:30] <bdmurray> could somebody look at bug 922647 and the ata error messages there?  are those indicative of a hardware problem or maybe a driver?
[16:37] <tgardner> bug #922647
[16:41] <bdmurray> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/992647
[16:41] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 992647 in ubiquity "Problema ao instalar ubunto no HD" [Undecided,New]
[16:42] <apw> bjf, recovered, recursive ssh runes are ... BAD
[16:42] <tgardner> apw, doh !
[16:42] <bjf> heh
[16:43] <apw> load hit 48 before i got it under control, perhaps 20m of paging like a pig
[16:49] <tgardner> bdmurray, what little I've discovered indicates it is a drive issue: http://shadowm.rewound.net/blog/archives/206-Giving-Debian-Wheezy-another-whirl,-and-an-unpleasant-surprise-from-Reicore.html
[16:52] <bdmurray> tgardner: I don't see any media errors in this bug report which is typical for drive issues
[16:52] <tgardner> bdmurray, hell if I know. I'm not skilled at parsing ATA noise
[16:53] <bdmurray> https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/articles/l/i/b/Libata_error_messages.html
[16:55] <tgardner> bdmurray, repeated instances of 'failed command: READ FPDMA QUEUED' followed by 'hard resetting link' don't seem too healthy to me.
[16:55] <bdmurray> tgardner: sure but it continues to report DRDY
[16:56] <bdmurray> the wiki pages mentions 'try booting with 'pci=nomsi' or 'acpi=off' or 'noapic'' for timeouts
[16:56] <bdmurray> maybe I'll have them try that
[16:57] <tgardner> bdmurray, works for me.
[17:13] <JanC> somebody should write a tool to interpret kernel/driver/hardware errors like that...  ;)
[17:14] <JanC> tgardner: I had a drive issuing such "hard resetting link" messages for some time, now it's (almost) dead (but strange enough, SMART never reported anything wrong...)
[17:19] <greearb> It seems that if you have a USB stick in the machine when booting the live-cd, it will not mount that USB stick untill you remove it and re-install it.  Anyone know if there is some tool/script that can cause it to mount w/out physically unplugging/plugging the USB key?
[17:22] <JanC> greearb: you could probably run "sudo udevadm trigger"
[17:22] <JanC> or use mount, udisks, GParted or the udisks GUI frontend
[17:23] <apw> greearb, udisks probabally
[17:23] <greearb> thanks..will try that
[17:23] <JanC> also depending on how you wnat it mounted
[17:23] <greearb> just want it to show up in /media/
[17:25] <JanC> I think the udevadm command will cause the same events as if it were unplugged & replugged
[17:25] <JanC> at least from the GUI apps PoV
[17:37] <greearb> no luck
[19:31] <slangasek> apw: ping
[19:32] <apw> slangasek, hi
[19:32] <slangasek> apw: hey there!  ogasawara was just telling me that aufs was re-enabled in the kernel for precise at the last minute?
[19:33] <slangasek> apw: was the plan for us to use that as the unionfs in precise for the liveCDs?  Because we didn't
[19:33] <apw> slangasek, it was around the betas indeed.  there was concern from the lxc people that they wanted a fallback if they couldn't cope with overlayfs
[19:33] <slangasek> ok
[19:33] <apw> slangasek, we had used overlayfs for all the tested CDs so no not intended that we'd change
[19:33] <slangasek> ah, ok then
[19:34] <apw> as far as i know noone is using aufs for anything
[19:34] <slangasek> so I shouldn't be fretting over this and trying to change it for .1 ;)
[19:34] <apw> i don't think so no
[19:34] <slangasek> ok
[19:34] <slangasek> any chance of overlayfs getting fixed to stop claiming it supports inotify, btw?
[19:34] <slangasek> (wouldn't fix all our liveCD bugs, but it would fix some of them)
[19:35] <apw> slangasek, i made a version which claimed it didn't, userspace didn't like it much vomitting errors everywhere
[19:35] <slangasek> oh, neat
[19:35] <slangasek> so much for that then
[19:35] <apw> overlayfs may get some support for inotify if i get time, but it won't fix anything which uses fstat on already open files
[19:35] <apw> such as tail does
[19:36] <slangasek> mm?  tail prefers to use inotify
[19:36] <slangasek> or is fstat() separately broken?
[19:37] <apw> yes, but it uses a specific combination which doesnt work out
[19:37] <apw> it opens the file, asks for inotify, we tell it the file changed, it fstats the old file, sees the notify was a 'lie' and does nothing
[19:38] <apw> a side effect of the known posix violation that overlayfs has which makes it simple and performant
[19:39] <apw> so none of the calls are broken per-see just the meaning is subtle altereed,  if tail used 'stat' on the pathname it would work just fine with my patches
[19:40] <slangasek> right
[19:40] <apw> obviously not without any working inotify as we have now
[19:40] <apw> i n
[19:40] <slangasek> performance over posix - grr
[19:40] <slangasek> :)
[19:41] <apw> well its less performance and more simpliciyt.  aufs and vfs-union-mounts are massive as a result of having the entire posix implementation
[19:41] <apw> and they can't get into the kernel, somethinig small enough to be acceptable seems to be
[19:41] <apw> fialing cause its not complete enough, its ... a problem
[19:42]  * slangasek nods
[19:43] <apw> if upstream was more helpful in guiding direction rather than just being "ick vile no" to everything we might make some more progress
[19:43] <slangasek> but then you'd be contributing upstream... and we can't have that now can we ;)
[19:59] <apw> slangasek, tsk
[19:59] <apw> slangasek, its a good job the 5 patches i pushed today don't count (at least when we are measured_
[19:59] <slangasek> :-)
[20:24] <bdmurray> jsalisbury: I was looking at ubuntu bugs with the same title by the same reporter the other day
[20:25] <bdmurray> jsalisbury: eg bug 820031 and bug 820040
[20:25] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 820031 in linux "WARNING: at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.38/net/mac80211/rx.c:2881 ieee80211_rx+0xad/0x1d0 [mac80211]()" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/820031
[20:25] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 820040 in linux "WARNING: at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.38/net/mac80211/rx.c:2881 ieee80211_rx+0xad/0x1d0 [mac80211]()" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/820040
[20:50]  * tgardner -> EOD
[22:12] <bjf> ogasawara: supposedly gomesia is back
[22:13] <bjf> s/gomesia/gomeisa/


[00:50] <zargonovski> hello
[18:48] <dee> Hello there
[19:01] <dee> pleia2: are you available?
[19:01] <pleia2> dee: hello
[19:02] <dee> Hi. I'm from the German LoCo.
[19:02] <pleia2> welcome :)
[19:02] <dee> We have translated your StartUbuntu-Flyer: http://spreadubuntu.org/de/node/966
[19:02] <pleia2> great!
[19:02] <pleia2> I'll add it to the wiki and site
[19:02] <dee> Some Question: Why is the license on the flyer CC and  GFDL?
[19:03] <pleia2> I don't know, I didn't license it
[19:03] <pleia2> dee: might want to update the languge defined on that, it says English
[19:03] <pleia2> Sprache:  English
[19:04] <dee> the link is to your original flyer. ^^
[19:04] <pleia2> oh :)
[19:04] <dee> We have a little license problem so that I cannot give you the translated version yet.
[19:04] <dee> That's the reason I'm here.
[19:04] <pleia2> dee: you'll have to contact the original author
[19:05] <pleia2> https://launchpad.net/~vmalep
[19:05] <dee> Okay, I see. On the original Addis-Flyer it was also CC&GFDL.
[19:05] <pleia2> I've just been helping things along for the xubuntu revision, we've just kept his orignal license
[19:05] <pleia2> yep, I don't have anything to do with that
[19:06] <dee> but you have removed the author. Was that okay with Pierre?
[19:06] <pleia2> yes
[19:06] <dee> ok, then we keep this.
[19:06] <pleia2> we moved the attribution list to the download page on spreadubuntu.org because it was getting too long to include on the flyer
[19:08] <dee> I think it would be better, if you put the node/966 with it. That's okay with CC 4.0. (Even if the flyer is licensed under CC 3.0)  Otherwise people need to search the authors.
[19:09] <pleia2> spreadubuntu.org is really inflexible
[19:10] <pleia2> we talked about just putting it in the body of the text, but worried that would confuse folks
[19:11] <dee> We'll see what we can do in our version. :)
[19:11] <pleia2> ok :)
[19:11] <dee> And we further have translated this one: http://spreadubuntu.org/de/node/464
[19:12] <pleia2> cool
[19:12] <dee> But wee need to check the license too.
[19:17] <pleia2> what's the trouble with that license?
[19:18] <dee> No, it's a trouble with the translator. He's not so fond of any license.
[19:18] <dee> so he "mismatched" the license with the upload to SpreadUbuntu.
[19:19] <pleia2> ah, that is a problem :(
[19:20] <pleia2> again, you can contact the original author to see about changing it, in this case it's doctormo: https://launchpad.net/~doctormo
[19:20] <dee> Yes, I know. But the license at it is, is okay.
[19:21] <pleia2> ok
[19:26] <dee> pleia2: can you tell me where I can change the author in SpreadUbuntu? Currently I only see " ... by  is licensed under a" So the author is missing after the "by". :(
[19:30] <pleia2> dee: can you take a screenshot or something? I am having a hard time figuring out what screen you're on
[19:30] <dee> wait
[19:30] <dee> http://spreadubuntu.org/de/material/poster/gründe-für-ubuntu
[19:31] <dee> See the license box.
[19:31] <dee> I think the problem is that someone "Anonymous" has uploaded it.
[19:31] <dee> Is there a way to set the author  displayed in the license box that is different from the uploader name?
[19:36] <pleia2> when you upload something, you either define an original author, or leave it blank if it's you
[19:36] <pleia2> but you may need to be logged in to do that
[19:38] <dee> And if I (or someone else) already have uploaded it?
[19:38] <dee> May I change it then?
[19:38] <pleia2> I don't think so
[19:38] <pleia2> Anonymous things are pretty poorly supported
[19:38] <dee> Can I delete the entry?
[19:38] <dee> And start new?
[19:39] <pleia2> only if you uploaded it
[19:39] <pleia2> you can submit a bug to see if a website admin will delete it
[19:39] <pleia2> bug link is in the page footer
[19:42] <dee> I try to contact Ruben
[19:42] <dee> Because it's not a bug in SpreadUbuntu. (Okay, it is but not the deletion of the entry itself)
[19:48] <pleia2> yeah
[19:51] <dee> So here it is: http://spreadubuntu.org/de/material/poster/gründe-für-ubuntu-reasons-love-ubuntu
[19:52] <pleia2> very nice!
[20:02] <dee> So, here's the second one: http://spreadubuntu.org/de/material/poster/startubuntu-von-windows-xp-zu-ubuntu
[20:32] <dee> pleia2: I hope everything is fine and you can link the translation in the Xubuntu blog
[20:35] <pleia2> dee: great, thanks
[20:35] <dee> ok, then bye and good night
[20:35] <pleia2> night :)


[01:24] <darkmatter> troy_s, http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=493011899&context=set-72157594488098254&size=o <--- which menu do you prefer?
[01:43] <troy_s> darkmatter: Either if you put a gradient on the base flatbox
[01:43] <troy_s> or something...
[01:44] <troy_s> the spherecrystal theme does that, and it is quite pretty albeit very heavy handed
[01:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: In 20 seconds I could not tell those two apart lol
[01:44] <darkmatter> lol
[01:44] <troy_s> ah the dots
[01:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: Ok... lines
[01:44] <darkmatter> k
[01:44] <troy_s> lines are a little more crisp
[01:44] <troy_s> sharp
[01:45] <troy_s> the dots are making me want to go rip apart sheets of lottery tickets
[01:45] <darkmatter> hehe
[01:45] <troy_s> darkmatter: Are my eyes completely going bonkers
[01:45] <troy_s> darkmatter: Is there a 3d shape to that menu?
[01:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: Or is it the byproduct of the edging causing my eye to correct and create those illusiory shadows
[01:46] <darkmatter> it took a bit to get the bleed right in the highlight
[01:46] <darkmatter> yup
[01:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: Yup what?
[01:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: I'm on crack or its there?
[01:46] <darkmatter> its got 3d, and a kinda flat-3d bleed on the blue
[01:46] <troy_s> on the blue yes... but not on the flatbox base
[01:46] <troy_s> correct?
[01:46] <troy_s> you have seen the grad on spherecrystal i am sure yes?
[01:47] <darkmatter> yup... the pixmap is 3d with a slight grad
[01:47] <darkmatter> aye
[01:47] <troy_s> it also does a rounding on the inset, which is quite alright.
[01:47] <troy_s> the gradient on the menus is probably the strongest elements of that theme
[01:48] <darkmatter> ate
[01:49] <lapo> seen this http://www.redhat.com/promo/fonts/ ?
[01:50] <troy_s> wtf is a gpl exception license?
[01:51] <troy_s> lapo: That bodes immensely well -- fonts are a wonderful thing to get growing
[01:52] <troy_s> darkmatter: Get that fecking thing out the bloody door please
[01:53] <troy_s> darkmatter: GTK is driving me bonkers... and I have changed the two elements that I personally require
[01:53] <darkmatter> I'm trying.. trust me... got it figured.. just throwing together the base pixmaps
[01:53] <troy_s> (still need progress bar fancification but I am not doing that until i have an alpha glory as a base...)
[01:53] <troy_s> darkmatter: Can you bzr it too so that I can at least keep current
[01:53] <troy_s> and merge?
[01:54] <darkmatter> yeah.. I'll have to install bzr (clean install here) and import all me crappieez
[01:54] <troy_s> darkmatter: You know you can force a bzr write
[01:54] <darkmatter> yup
[01:55] <troy_s> darkmatter: So just do a forced overwrite to avoid the need to pull and merge and shit
[01:55] <troy_s> darkmatter: Further, I can probably fix some of the major gongs like tab tears etc.
[01:55] <darkmatter> yup
[01:55] <troy_s> darkmatter: And push a branch to help out.
[04:24] <melaren> Hello everyone, I had a couple of ideas I wanted to run past you guys...
[04:26] <melaren> I contacted Frank Schoep regarding one of his blueprint specs for "wide-theme-switcher", but he isn't currently working on the project.
[04:26] <melaren> It seems to me that there is a lot of work being done on the various flavors of Ubuntu that could be shared. For example, the Kubuntu and Xubuntu backgrounds could be a selectable option by default in Ubuntu. Of course, if this was the case, we would also need the GDM, Splash, etc., to change to create a unified theme. Ideally it would be nice for each flavor have a completely different color scheme. So let's say Ubuntu stays brown, Kubuntu
[04:26] <melaren> Currently there isn't much diversity in the default theme selection. ...there are four blue themes in Feisty, despite users calling blue "clich" for operating systems. It would also be nice to see one or two relatively neutral photos as selectable wallpaper. I recently tried the live Sabayon Distro. The photo wallpaper was striking. ...the rest of the artwork, not so much. It would be nice for Ubuntu users to have high quality photo wal
[04:28] <melaren> ...looking at the release of Uuntu Sudio, it would also be nice to share that system-wide theme with the regular Ubuntu release
[04:35] <troy_s> melaren: Hello
[04:35] <melaren> Hey :)
[04:35] <troy_s> melaren: Generally photos don't work well
[04:35] <troy_s> melaren: From a contrast point of view
[04:35] <wedderburn> melaren: the one for ubuntu studio will be in the ubuntu repo's by gutsy or it should be
[04:35] <troy_s> melaren: We don't have too much say as to what goes where, and frank has left the ubuntu scene
[04:35] <melaren> ok
[04:36] <melaren> yeah, that's what he said
[04:36] <troy_s> melaren: And if you want the uS theme, you can add the repo from the site.
[04:36] <troy_s> melaren: If you want better design and such, complain to sabdfl.
[04:36] <troy_s> melaren: And tell your friends to.
[04:36] <wedderburn> LOL
[04:36] <troy_s> melaren: The more the merrier.
[04:36] <melaren> Ok
[04:36] <troy_s> in fact, if you really want to have an impact
[04:37] <melaren> what do you think about sharing the work being done between the flavors?
[04:37] <troy_s> formulate a nicely phrased standard email and have it forwarded to all of the relative folks at canonical.
[04:37] <melaren> ...kubuntu, xubuntu, ubuntu studio
[04:37] <troy_s> melaren: I think it is an option.  I would say it is probably secondary to getting Ubuntu's design pattern actually with a heartbeat
[04:37] <troy_s> melaren: And if anyone asks you who told you... just say wedderburn said so.
[04:37] <melaren> yeah
[04:38] <melaren> lol
[04:38] <wedderburn> :O
[04:38] <troy_s> melaren: Seriously though, I am quite passionate about ubuntu's design as in it is sub satisfactory for a microsecond where it actually has the momentum to really make a difference.
[04:38] <wedderburn> and if anyone asks say havoc said so
[04:38] <melaren> yeah
[04:38] <troy_s> melaren: So the more attention it gets (and not of the silly 'brown sux' or whatever variety) the better.
[04:39] <melaren> Well, we already have selectable themes, but they are really just Ok
[04:39] <troy_s> they are ...
[04:39] <melaren> the new gloss one is decent
[04:39] <wedderburn> brown doesn't suck its just bland the way they've done it
[04:39] <melaren> yeah
[04:39] <troy_s> wedderburn: Agree... monochromatic brown
[04:39] <wedderburn> i loved some of the edgy art
[04:39] <melaren> It looks good until I use a different theme
[04:39] <wedderburn> it had greens and all in it
[04:39] <melaren> then I'm like, "hmm"
[04:40] <wedderburn> the icons are a mess when you mix them in wiht all the tango ones
[04:40] <melaren> yeah
[04:41] <melaren> Ok, so I'm looking at the theme preferences and I'm thinking "we could have a better default selection"   ...without trying too hard
[04:42] <melaren> I haven't installed ubuntu studio yet, but looking at the screenshots, it looks quite respectable
[04:44] <melaren> I'm just trying to get a feel for what you guys think...  ...because I'll work on a proposal for the "higher-ups" if I get decent feedback from people who have some experience in the community (more than I do).  There are plenty of people with ideas, many of the ideas are terrible, I'm just trying to ensure that mine isn't one of them...
[04:45] <troy_s> wedderburn: wellt he main problem is that tango's belief is that they are usable
[04:45] <troy_s> and icons are at least as big an aesthetic as anything else
[04:45] <melaren> true
[04:46] <troy_s> melaren: You will get a thousand different opinions from a thousand different folks
[04:46] <melaren> hehe, true
[04:46] <wedderburn> personally i would like a green desktop
[04:47] <wedderburn> greens great you can mix it with brown and blue
[04:47] <troy_s> melaren: You would need to build your case from a very researched and respectable point of view.
[04:47] <troy_s> melaren: in the end, hire a real designer.
[04:47] <troy_s> melaren: If you are going to spend any money, hire the real deal.
[04:51] <melaren> well all I'm proposing is that we try to utilize the work that is already being done.  ...so making the ubuntu studio theme w/icons & background a selectable option by default.  ...in place of one of the lousy selectable themes currently in Theme Preferences like, "Crux" or "High Contrast"
[04:52] <melaren> ...and green would be great, but it doesn't look like Ubuntu is going to change any time soon.   ...they may consider changing the Xubuntu color scheme
[05:00] <troy_s> melaren: The work that is done is weak
[05:00] <troy_s> if you are meaning borrowing from x or k
[05:00] <troy_s> its the same homogenized blah mess
[05:03] <wedderburn> melaren: the desktops been the same for ages, we need to change it :P
[05:07] <melaren> I think if work was borrowed from x, x would need a color theme change (preferably to green).  This is what I was thinking...  ...If x, k, and projects like ubuntu studio all have different color schemes; and the artwork is respectable, it would be cool to have those themes (along with wallpaper, etc) as a selectable option.  This way a Ubuntu user would have a Brown theme (default), and an option to select a green (x), blue (k), and black theme (u
[05:12] <troy_s> melaren: You could do a 1000000 different releases with distinct motifs with brown as a base
[05:13] <troy_s> melaren: The downside is that we dont have any bloody one who knows what a motif is.
[05:13] <nothlit> i'd hope theres one or two :P
[05:13] <troy_s> melaren: So unfortunately, it will take Diana over at Fedora to embarass us
[05:13] <troy_s> melaren: Before the billion dollar man admits that perhaps, just maybe, just possibly, there are people out there who have a better idea about design than he does.
[05:14] <troy_s> nothlit: Seriously nothlit -- you are the exception
[05:14] <troy_s> nothlit: I pushed motifs at the paris uds for god knows how long
[05:14] <troy_s> how hard
[05:14] <troy_s> etc.
[05:14] <troy_s> _no_ clue
[05:14] <melaren> ok ok
[05:14] <troy_s> its a big hole
[05:14] <melaren> yeah, fedora is very nice looking
[05:14] <melaren> ..I don't remember what the icons look like
[05:14] <nothlit> anyways =/ ubuntustudio is supposed to be distinct--theres no reason users can't use that look, but its a horrible idea to provide different color schemes like that--horrible dilution of identity and message--and theres plenty of themes out there people can use
[05:15] <melaren> Yeah I kinda thought about that... ...it's a branding thing at this point
[05:15] <melaren> ...Ubuntu is the "brown" operating system
[05:15] <nothlit> but in terms of colorisation--theres a gnome color chooser that edits the gtkrc, you may like that
[05:15] <troy_s> melaren: Branding is ONLY effective if it bears a communicative message.
[05:16] <melaren> true true
[05:16] <melaren> ....but at this point it would probably be odd to switch from brown
[05:17] <troy_s> there is _nothing_ wrong with brown
[05:17] <melaren> ...even though I would support such a decision
[05:17] <troy_s> brown works
[05:17] <troy_s> has worked since 3000 bc
[05:17] <troy_s> always will work
[05:17] <melaren> haha
[05:17] <troy_s> lock it in with context
[05:17] <troy_s> message
[05:17] <wedderburn> i liked how they made things more orange feels warmer
[05:17] <troy_s> and audience
[05:17] <wedderburn> and thats what a new os should be
[05:17] <wedderburn> warm fuzzy feel safe
[05:17] <melaren> yeah, orange was nice
[05:17] <nothlit> a single color doesn't make a mood
[05:18] <melaren> I thought it would be cool if they kept transitioning the color
[05:18] <nothlit> its a selection, used appropriately
[05:18] <melaren> Ok, thanks for the conversation guys.  I appreciate the feedback.
[05:23] <BHSPitMonkey> I liked the orange color palette
[05:23] <BHSPitMonkey> until I got sick of it.
[05:38] <troy_s> nothlit: AMEN
[05:39] <troy_s> nothlit hit the nail on the head.  it is _all_ fundamentally about communication, and communication entails more than a single letter to build a word.
[06:46] <nothlit> ooh, a thousand self portraits in a thousand days http://www.conceptart.org/artist/andrew-jones/images/1000_sp/1000_sp_2500x4400.jpg
[06:48] <nothlit> troy_s: do you get how this schedule works for us? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess#head-c9d177822a71b90ec5fb703ed0d0f30eeb8fc1db --i don't get how much versioning applies to a targetted distro and release specific artwork package
[06:49] <nothlit> troy_s: we have to make it in before new packages freeze--but then how does revision work-- usually versioning can't change and only bug fixes--but does that mean we can't change anything except touchups or what?
[06:49] <nothlit> troy_s: or does it not apply
[07:02] <troy_s> nothlit: Sorry... reading.
[07:02] <troy_s> nothlit: Was busy... give me a moment
[07:02] <nothlit> np
[07:03] <troy_s> nothlit: Yes...
[07:03] <nothlit> irc works great on delay too :)
[07:03] <troy_s> nothlit: If you are out on non Ubuntu main stuffs
[07:03] <troy_s> you can avoid feature freeze etc.
[07:04] <troy_s> nothlit: As for artwork, I think the idea is more along the lines of 'open' as it isn't really a formalized process in terms of art and design.
[07:04] <troy_s> nothlit: One area you COULD argue similarities between would be something like GDM
[07:04] <nothlit> i was just wondering how much revision we can do before hard freeze
[07:04] <troy_s> nothlit: I would assume that if you made it to the freeze, your GDM code should probably be the same, etc.
[07:04] <nothlit> because its not like software where version changes can break things
[07:05] <nothlit> and its specific to ubuntu, and for that release
[07:07] <nothlit> ahh kk
[01:57] <wedderburn> troy_s: you know whats brown and everyone loves, coffee, ubuntu should pay homage to the caffeine gods the coffee bean in the form of art :-p
[05:46] <troy_s> wedderburn: You obviously were not watching the mailing list re your last comment :)
[05:46] <wedderburn> troy_s: mailing list?
[05:46] <wedderburn> link us
[05:47] <troy_s> let me see...
[05:48] <troy_s> you can start with the colour thread...
[05:48] <troy_s> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-April/thread.html
[05:50] <wedderburn> troy_s: i thought it was something good, i read the colour thing ppl talking about colours been bad because of different culters
[05:50] <troy_s> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-April/003873.html -- last paragraph
[05:51] <troy_s> wedderburn: Pretty much exactly your thinking.
[05:56] <wedderburn> haha
[05:56] <wedderburn> cool
[05:57] <wedderburn> troy_s: i didn't see this though
[05:57] <wedderburn> troy_s: kinda went though the first lot and went meh
[06:01] <troy_s> wedderburn: It is mostly meh
[06:02] <troy_s> wedderburn: Mostly people piping off about their opinions, their beliefs etc.
[06:02] <troy_s> wedderburn: Very very very very few actually trying to site the research and study in the area.
[06:02] <wedderburn> but i mean
[06:02] <troy_s> wedderburn: Go ask a professional psychologist about color psychology :)
[06:03] <wedderburn> you got foam you got coffee you got beans you got coffee berries
[06:03] <wedderburn> so many colours all organic
[06:03] <troy_s> wedderburn: I tried to do a little of both -- 1 dismiss the garbage about brown, and 2 provide real world examples of companies that have used brown as a _base_ colour and hit billion dollar sales.
[06:03] <troy_s> wedderburn: absolutely
[06:03] <troy_s> wedderburn: you have a limited palette all supporting that brown base.
[06:03] <troy_s> wedderburn: look to adidas for some of that too...
[06:04] <troy_s> wedderburn: in fact, i just saw a shoe add with grunge (it is popping up everywhere now sigh)
[06:04] <troy_s> brown base.
[06:04] <troy_s> hell... its even in shiny car advertisements... yet again hitting on contemporary design trends.
[06:04] <troy_s> guess where it will end up next?
[06:05] <troy_s> wedderburn: I think the biggest problem of all with Ubuntu is that things are tried ONCE, and based on (generally poor) execution, the ideas are tossed out as 'not working'
[06:05] <troy_s> which isn't really the most productive way to try something...
[06:05] <troy_s> rather like Apple trying to make an early version of the iPod with a 3.5 inch hard disk, finding out that it isn't successful with the focus groups, then quitting.
[06:06] <wedderburn> indeed
[08:27] <troy_s> darkmatter: !
[08:30] <darkmatter> troy_s, !
[08:32] <troy_s> darkmatter: You know the question so just cut to the answer.
[08:32] <darkmatter> the answer is no?
[08:33] <darkmatter> was way to busy yesterday.. but will have most of the weekend to myself to play
[08:39] <troy_s> Okie.
[09:10] <troy_s> darkmatter: Again, when you THINK you have hit on all the bases -- alpha or otherwise -- please push.
[09:11] <darkmatter> yup
[09:11] <troy_s> darkmatter: As the sooner I can get a feel for what needs twiddles the easier on my end.
[09:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: Is there any chance you can put up what you have now?
[09:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: I want to pull some screenshots
[09:34] <troy_s> darkmatter: And the bloody lack of attention GTK has currently is boning me.
[09:49] <BHSPitMonkey> I'm really not sure what it would be like to be boned by a lack...
[10:18] <troy_s> darkmatter: What is that panel control you using in your screenshots?
[10:18] <troy_s> darkmatter: Have you tried gimmie?
[10:19] <darkmatter> troy_s, gimmie is to clicky and fugly, though its a decent conept, the executions off
[10:19] <troy_s> fugly for certain
[10:19] <darkmatter> as for what I use
[10:20] <troy_s> beyond fugly
[10:20] <darkmatter> gnome-main-menu
[10:20] <darkmatter> version 2
[10:20] <darkmatter> :P
[10:20] <troy_s> i am looking for something more mainstream in terms of presentation
[10:20] <troy_s> ?
[10:20] <troy_s> where is that?
[10:20] <darkmatter> gnome svn
[10:20] <darkmatter> gnome-main-menu/brances/versio-2
[10:20] <darkmatter> *version
[10:20] <darkmatter> *branches
[10:21] <troy_s> are there screenshots for it around?
[10:21] <darkmatter> not many screenies of version 2 cept mine ;)
[10:22] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=484184032&size=o
[10:27] <troy_s> well thats a helluva stepup from the crap that we have now
[10:27] <troy_s> darkmatter: Now to just blow the bloody panel out entirely.
[10:28] <troy_s> grr.
[10:28] <darkmatter> lol
[10:28] <troy_s> well... maybe make it a little less panel like
[10:28] <troy_s> less circa 1989
[10:28] <troy_s> _something_?
[10:30] <darkmatter> well, once glory is done I'm tossing together a few quick mockups to peak interest in my next project. basically a hybrid first class ui thing
[10:32] <darkmatter> the "panel" is more of a shelf really. has a hybrid mode that uses thumbnails for task switches.. purebred is much more complicated
[10:32] <darkmatter> but both are tied into a "library"
[10:38] <darkmatter> I'd go into the details, but it'd take to long
[10:38] <darkmatter> but as others can attest to... no menus, or panels to be seen ;)
[10:38] <darkmatter> except in hybrid, for those who cant live without a "startbutton"
[10:39] <troy_s> its good to have the interface boil down to a singular
[10:39] <darkmatter> I've pages and pages notes on it
[10:39] <troy_s> (strictly speaking in terms of a casual computer user)
[10:40] <darkmatter> basically it would need a core lib for the library.. the ui would be kinda universal
[10:41] <darkmatter> so you would have access to everything from a single point, yet in an uncomplicated.. as hig as an allinone shopping center can get
[10:41] <darkmatter> so.. if you went to "music", that page of the library would have playback controls, etc
[10:42] <troy_s> hig is shit
[10:42] <darkmatter> basically the idea is to create a data management tool that is first class (as in abstracts the application shit n puts the data first)
[10:42] <troy_s> and it is the furthest thing from all in one that i could describe
[10:43] <darkmatter> makes use of the new core technologies like libburn n telepathy etc
[10:43] <darkmatter> but, i digress. example
[10:44] <troy_s> hrm... libburn?
[10:44] <darkmatter> you have a "gossip" or "blab" or "contacts" whatever page in the library
[10:44] <darkmatter> libburns the new framework for cd/dvd authoring
[10:45] <darkmatter> so you open that page, it has a list of the contacts, basic info, links for addy's n im accounts, online statuse etc
[10:46] <darkmatter> clicking an addy would open a blank document (basically evo or tbird or whatevers composition window, but just kinda bypassing the whole launch application thingy)
[10:50] <darkmatter> troy_s, or, another example.. basically, the ui "shelf" is a glorified notification center.. akin to a sock ticker on steroids.. but more useful, you can almost look at it like desktop widgets or gadgets too, but thats not really the best analogy
[10:50] <darkmatter> but anyway... on to the example
[10:51] <darkmatter> say your boss needs a  presentation finished. job falls to you
[10:52] <darkmatter> deadlines friday, you start the presentation, have other work to do, so save it n set a reminder for wednesday (basically could have a remind me feature in the office ui or just in the library, whatever)
[10:52] <darkmatter> so, wednesday at xxx time rolls around
[10:53] <darkmatter> a reminder appears in the shelf "finish presentation for stupi..."
[10:54] <darkmatter> clicky the reminder would open the document directly
[10:54] <darkmatter> or you could right click it, a tile pops up gives you other options
[10:54] <darkmatter> to dismiss it, delay it, whatever


[05:44] <mirespace> good morning
[06:26] <utkarsh2102> mirespace: o/
[06:35] <cpaelzer> hi mirespace and utkarsh2102 and everyone else
[06:37] <sbeattie> ahasenack, cpaelzer: i have acked glusterfs, sorry for the delay.
[06:39] <cpaelzer> thank you so much sbeattie !
[06:40] <cpaelzer> I know we put a lot of pressure on all of you
[06:40] <cpaelzer> let me have a look if there are things to resolve before making changes ...
[07:48] <yurtesen> good morning
[07:53] <yurtesen> utkarsh2102: did you have time to review my fix suggestion? what do you think?
[09:31] <deadrom> greetings. how are ports above 49150 treated by ufw?
[09:40] <ravage> as a port
[09:43] <deadrom> just as any other? background: I got a device talking to ubu server, control port is, let's say 4114 so I opened that on ufw. Works ok. the whole device does, while the manufacturer tells me it then spawns random ports above 49150 for actual data transmission. Still the device works as intended but I don't know why.
[09:51] <ravage> ufw is just a frontend to (only?) iptables
[09:51] <ravage> what you describe is RELATED,ESTABLISHED in iptables and tcp connections
[10:35] <ahasenack> cpaelzer: I did a quick rebase of https://code.launchpad.net/~ahasenack/ubuntu/+source/samba/+git/samba/+ref/jammy-samba-gluster-mir and uploaded to https://launchpad.net/~ahasenack/+archive/ubuntu/samba-gluster-mir so it builds while I'm away
[11:26] <cpaelzer> thanks ahasenack
[11:47] <athos> good morning!
[13:06] <utkarsh2102> athos: o/
[13:07] <utkarsh2102> yurtesen: hey, I've initiated the conversation with the Debian maintainer. Haven't heard from him yet. I'll let you know as soon as I hear from him.
[14:46] <ahasenack> howdy
[14:54] <utkarsh2102> ahasenack: o/
[14:55] <ahasenack> hi utkarsh2102
[14:56] <sdeziel> deadrom: what you describe sounds like something involving conntrack helpers which then create entries that will match as RELATED IIRC
[21:30] <yurtesen> utkarsh2102: thanks for the update


[06:06] <tjaalton> apw: so now you get to bisect 4.11..4.12 for the touchpad issue? :)
[06:45] <apw> yay
[09:46] <xnox> apw, config/s390x/config.common.s390x:# CONFIG_BLK_DEV_NVME is not set
[09:46] <xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1708432
[09:46] <xnox> is there something i can do to the bug, to raise attention? should i prepare and mail patch to ubuntu kernel mailing list?
[09:47] <xnox> or is this done, because CONFIG_BLK_DEV_NVME_SCSI=y ?
[09:59] <apw> xnox, not sure if that means it is on or not, i don't suppose any of our kit has those in it ...
[10:01] <xnox> apw, it does sound like a forward looking thing e.g. z14 or maybe even later.
[10:02] <xnox> thus yeah, we deffinately do not have kit.
[10:02] <apw> xnox, anyhow you have done the right thing to raise it to my attention
[10:04] <xnox> apw, thank you sir.
[12:17] <dasjoe> So, I've got some TB3 and USB-C docks with an (as of now) unsupported Realtek r8152. I've built a PPA for realtek's drivers, as the new revisions will be supported from 4.13 onwards. Is there a process to SRU specific drivers into xenial, or is the usual method to just wait it out?
[13:03] <apw> dasjoe, it all depends how self-contained the changes are to support that, if it looks tractible it is not impossible to have it SRUd
[13:03] <apw> dasjoe, and of course if it is in 4.13 that will be a linux-hwe kernel in xenial at some point
[19:00] <loganaden> hello
[19:11] <dasjoe> apw: well, it's this commit: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/65b82d696b9e84fda6dd7df61801b57d3e7fb976
[19:11] <dasjoe> Although I went a different way and built my PPA from realtek's source


[08:12] <huats> morning
[08:28] <didrocks> pitti: if you're interested on the algorithm to detect installed applications and codecs which are not default: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneConf#passively detect user selected packages (Alternative)
[08:29] <RAOF> chrisccoulson: Your ATA error bug is probably bug #539467 - have you seen it?
[08:44]  * RAOF looks at who actually reported that bug.  Whoops!
[09:06] <cjohnston> kenvandine: it just started updating
[09:27] <Nafai> kenvandine: So, can you point me to that Evolution PPA you are using?
[10:40] <seb128> desrt, pitti: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=581434#25
[10:40] <pitti> hah
[10:41] <pitti> hm, I thought we wanted to remove this altogether and use PAM?
[10:41] <seb128> just pointing it
[10:41] <pitti> but at least it's good to know that Debian behaves the same now
[10:41] <pitti> merci!
[10:42] <seb128> de rien:
[10:42] <seb128> ;-)
[10:45] <kenvandine> cjohnston, can you test something for me?
[10:46] <kenvandine> bzr branch lp:~ken-vandine/gwibber/lp_580067
[10:46] <kenvandine> cd lp_580067
[10:46] <kenvandine> killall gwibber gwibber-service
[10:46] <kenvandine> ./bin/gwibber-service -d -o
[10:46] <kenvandine> then start the client
[10:47] <kenvandine> cjohnston, then after running for a few minutes, send me the log file
[10:47] <kenvandine> ~/.cache/gwibber/gwibber.log
[11:21] <cjohnston> kenvandine: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/gwibber/+bug/580067
[11:36] <kenvandine> cjohnston, thx
[11:38] <cjohnston> let me know if that helps you
[11:58] <kenvandine> cjohnston, got a minute to let me play with your laptop?
[12:51] <kenvandine> cjohnston, when you get a chance, please "bzr pull" in that branch and try again
[12:51] <kenvandine> and post the log, thx
[16:21] <cjohnston> kenvandine: just pulled it
[16:23] <LaserJock> is there a place to file bugs on Unity?
[16:24] <kklimonda> LaserJock: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/unity ?
[16:31] <cjohnston> kenvandine: bug 580067
[16:33] <LaserJock> kklimonda: interesting, so the whole thing is a single LP project rather than separate ones for each component?
[17:20] <bochecha> it seems like there hadn't been any release of dbusmodel yet, is one planned in the sort term? Alternatively, what revision would you advise me to use? (I'm building the Unity stack for Fedora 13)
[18:01] <onkara> hi Guys ...  i just installed Lucid Lynx ... and I am having trouble mounting NFS shares using autofs
[18:01] <onkara> could anyone please confirm if this is a known issue ?
[18:17] <onkara> could anyone confirm if autofs in LucidLynx is broken ??
[18:23] <joaopinto> onkara, the support channel is #ubuntu
[18:28] <bochecha> I'm trying to make a dist of dbusmodel from the bzr trunk, but it fails: http://fpaste.org/E1mI/
[18:28] <bochecha> any idea what I should do ?
[21:51] <bochecha> just FYI, there is a typo in the debian/control file for dbusmodel: "mutiple" instead of "multiple"
[21:51] <bochecha> not sure it's worth opening a bug report, so I thought I'd just mention it here


[19:04] <ibeardslee> morning
[19:22] <olly> morning
[19:32] <ajmitch> morning
[19:47] <ibeardslee> why is there not a single meta package to manage the HWE/LTS packages?


[00:32] <holstein> asterismo: what ubuntu tablet?
[00:32] <holstein> !tablet | asterismo
[00:33] <holstein> asterismo: whats available is development versions.. i would *not* move to it to use any of those applications
[02:06] <scottomacd> I am trying to install drivers for D-Link DGE-530T on Ubuntu 12.10.  Do understand the instructions newbie needs help
[02:06] <scottomacd> don't no do
[02:09] <holstein> scottomacd: well, ideally, it would be up to dlink to provide that information... but since that is not likely, what chipset are you running?
[02:10] <Unit193> And does it not work right now?
[02:10] <scottomacd> It says it is a Gigabit PCI adapter
[02:10] <holstein> scottomacd: what says what?
[02:11] <scottomacd> The box says Gigabit PCI adapter
[02:11] <Unit193> What happens when you plug it into the PC?
[02:12] <scottomacd> the card works but with the default drivers I am not getting  any high speed I can go up to 25MPS but I am stuck at under 10
[02:12] <holstein> scottomacd: unless the box says "supports linux", you can put that away
[02:12] <holstein> scottomacd: that might be the best that the linux driver can do for you..
[02:12] <scottomacd> it came with linux drivers and I have downloaded the latest files and have them on my desktop
[02:13] <Unit193> What's the speed of the router and your internet?
[02:13] <holstein> scottomacd: how are you determining the speed of the card?
[02:15] <scottomacd> Internet is 20 MPBS I am running the speed test on the videotron test page. In windows I am at 18 MBPS and with Ubuntu 8-9 MBPS
[02:16] <holstein> run a test locally
[02:16] <holstein> decide *just* how improtant this is.. i mean, you have support, and "magically". you just plugged it in, and it worked
[02:16] <holstein> otherwise, the drivers you download will have instructions.. if you need help with those, you can share that information
[02:18] <scottomacd> That is exactly my issue. The instructions are a bit beyond my Ubuntu level. This is what is says to do.
[02:18] <holstein> !pastebin | scottomacd
[02:19] <holstein> also, keep in mind, this doesnt have to work with your current version of the linux kernel or with ubuntu
[02:19] <holstein> i would just leave it alone, until it gets to be an issue
[02:19] <scottomacd> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5775860/
[02:20] <holstein> so "kernel source tree (supported versions 2.4.x or 2.6.x" that is *not* what you have
[02:21] <holstein> so, you can ask them for a current driver, or use it as-is, or try the driver you have that is not made for the kernel you have.. or, return the device if you still have the reciept
[02:21] <scottomacd> OK. See that is exactly why I needed your expertise. Like you said it is working just not high speed. Thanks very much for the help.
[02:22] <holstein> scottomacd: sure.. and, the driver *might* work with your kernel.. but i wouldnt assume it
[02:23] <scottomacd> I am still learning the install part of linux so I will stay status quo so I don't screw anything up
[02:23] <scottomacd> Thanks again.
[02:24] <holstein> sure.. good luck


[18:02] <OvenWerks> -controls is ready for some more testing. It no longer seems to connect everything in sight when left over night. Still need to work on being able to connect moe than one USB device... well disconnect would be the trouble I think.
[20:43] <len__> I still hate the theme... It is ok for browsing or other one applicate at a time use... but really, a decoration with a different colour on the window top bar would be nice.
[20:44] <len__> Ah well,
[20:44] <len__> I too notice that the Studio Application chooser is missing in the installer.
[20:45] <len__>  (but I don't know how to fix it)
[20:48] <len__> I still prefer the application menu over whisker, but I know others like the built in search in whisker maybe -controls should offer the choice.
[20:49] <len__> though I am not sure how easy this is to change while running, and asking someone to logout/login is :P
[21:56] <OvenWerks> Anyway everything seems to work ok, installs, runs ... as much as I have tested :)
[21:59] <OvenWerks> Jack starts, pulse auto connects, a2j works... It could use a new backdrop though for 18.04
[22:02] <OvenWerks> qjackctl still requires two clicks on the dropdown from the menu bar.
[22:11] <OvenWerks> zynaddsubfx does not have the new GUI yet.
[22:20] <OvenWerks> I managed to get sound out of LMMS.
[22:37] <OvenWerks> with regard to backdrops, ubuntustudio_1404_logo.jpg would work really well on dual monitors if it was moved to the left so the centre line of the circle was also the centre line of the image.
[22:57] <captain-tux> Hi Len, that could work. But does Xfce even extend wallpapers over two outputs?
[22:57] <OvenWerks> captain-tux: yes.
[22:57] <OvenWerks>  I am using that image right now across two screens
[22:58] <OvenWerks> settings desktop -> Style -> spanning screens
[22:58] <captain-tux> Oh okay, I wasn't aware. My displays are above each other, so I haven't bothered until now. :D
[22:58] <captain-tux> Ah.
[22:58] <OvenWerks> spanning screens should not be available if there are not two screens though
[23:03] <OvenWerks> captain-tux: I have added two bugs, one for ubuiquity (well actually ubuntustudio-live) for no application chooser and one for qjackctl because the indicator dropdown menu is goofy.
[23:03] <captain-tux> Is it too late for a wallpaper contest already? Could get some interesting results if the task is to create something responsive that works well with multiple screens..
[23:04] <OvenWerks> considering it would have to start and end this month... prolly too late
[23:05] <captain-tux> Ah, thanks. I wasn't sure if I should add it to ubuntustudio-live or not. I havn't actually noticed anything weird with qjackctl. But I still have the installation here, I'll check once more.
[23:06] <captain-tux> Oh, no wait. You said indicator dropdown, yes.. there's something strange going on.
[23:13] <OvenWerks> bug lp:1761884 and lp:1761887
[23:14] <OvenWerks> hmm, it used to grab them before bug 1761884
[23:14] <OvenWerks> Like that I guess
[23:15] <OvenWerks> bug 1761887
[23:15] <OvenWerks> captain-tux: it would be good if you can confirm them
[23:16] <OvenWerks> It seems something has changed in the commands I used to install -controls.
[23:20] <captain-tux> Oh great, what's this now.. *sigh*
[23:21] <captain-tux> Just tried to confirm them on launchpad, but as I click on "It affects me", I get a weird iframe with some red HTML and an Ok-button and nothing happens. Ever heard that before?
[23:26] <OvenWerks> hm, new to me... but then I haven't confirmed anything lately.
[23:29] <captain-tux> Hmm nope, disabling add-ons didn't help, either. Are they too fresh or something... <title>Error: Launchpad system error</title> Well.
[23:32] <captain-tux> Ah, nevermind.
[23:32] <OvenWerks> Well it seems to work here except I cant confirm cause I wrote it :)
[23:35] <captain-tux> Yes, my fault, sorry.. I don't want to talk about it. :D
[23:35] <captain-tux> Are you able to open multiple instances of the qjackctl indicator menu as well when you click on it repeatedly>
[23:38] <OvenWerks> just one... unless I am testing something different.
[23:40] <OvenWerks> In the end, I think Rui is just discusted with the whole QT support of indicators and will ignore any more bug reports about it. It used to work really well when it was a systray deal... but systray stuff doesn't work so well with some indicator parts of the pannel.
[23:42] <OvenWerks> did you confirm https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-live/+bug/1761884 as well?
[23:44] <krytarik> Any idea when that last showed up anyway?
[23:45] <OvenWerks> I don't know about 17.10 because I didn't test that, but I think I remember it there in 17.04
[23:46] <OvenWerks> Im wondering if it is something simple like python version.
[23:47] <captain-tux> OvenWerks, yep. Confirmed both.
[23:48] <OvenWerks> Thanks.
[23:55] <OvenWerks> krytarik: one of the packages it depends on has been updated since I installed 3 hours ago.
[23:55] <OvenWerks> (gir1.2-gtk-3.0)


[12:21]  * Mamarok runs Impish with KDE 5.23. Some strange Plasma mishaps on first start (Panel not showing, network connection not starting, krunner not running) had to run dpkg configuration, but now it runs smoothly