[14:55] <charlie-tca> Good morning
[15:10] <cody-somerville> Morning charlie-tca :)
[15:11] <charlie-tca> We have images early this time around.
[15:12] <charlie-tca> I think we need to set up some community meetings for Natty discussions. What do you think?
[15:24] <cody-somerville> +1
[15:26] <ochosi_work> in case you plan to make a wiki-page or anything with topics for discussion i suggest putting the icon theme there (elementary vs. faenza)
[15:30] <charlie-tca> Good idea!
[15:44] <charlie-tca> meeting agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[15:44] <charlie-tca> Please feel free to add any items you want discussed
[15:46] <charlie-tca> Do we need a survey to set the date and time, or can I ask here?
[15:58] <charlie-tca> Well, let's see. Tuesday and Wednesday are the most popular meeting days. I will propose we meet on thursday at 19:00 so that mr_pouit can make it
[15:59] <charlie-tca> Not this thursday, though
[16:01] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: does 19:00 UTC thursdays work for you ?
[16:02] <mr_pouit> it always works for me when it's on the evening or during week-ends
[16:02] <charlie-tca> Great! I would like to see us meet every two weeks for natty?
[16:03] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville: does it work for you?
[16:03] <mr_pouit> okay, let's see if we'll have enough topics to speak about :P
[16:03] <charlie-tca> agreed.  That works for me.
[16:05] <charlie-tca> anybody that it does not work for?
[16:06] <ochosi_work> charlie-tca, this thursday?
[16:07] <ochosi_work> (as in: tomorrow)
[16:07] <charlie-tca> no, I don't think this thursday
[16:07] <ochosi_work> ah, you mean in general, thursdays :)
[16:07] <charlie-tca> Start next week, every two weeks tentatively
[16:08] <ochosi_work> yeah, guess that's ok with me
[16:08] <ochosi_work> sry, what's 19:00 utc again in gmt+1 ?
[16:08] <charlie-tca> 20:00
[16:09] <charlie-tca> 8PM
[16:09] <ochosi_work> ah good, yeah, i guess i'm ok with that
[16:09] <ochosi_work> will you send out announces on the xubuntu-dev ml?
[16:09] <ochosi_work> announces/reminders :)
[16:17] <charlie-tca> sure.
[16:18] <charlie-tca> and on the users list, since this is a community meeting.


[00:19] <shtylman_> should I always do an debconf-updatepo after a change to the .templates?
[19:26] <cody-somerville> superm1, ping
[20:48] <superm1> cody-somerville, what's up?
[20:51] <cody-somerville> superm1, see pm
[21:56] <kirkland> evand1: around?
[21:56] <kirkland> evand1: looks like that user-setup changes took on the server cd, thanks!
[21:56] <kirkland> evand1: also, i was curious how encrypted-swap was coming?


[02:43] <Meyer_> heya.. anyone alive?
[12:41] <lapo> hi
[03:43] <viper550> Hello~
[03:47] <viper550> So, how we all doing today?
[03:53] <viper550> Hello!
[03:56] <viper550> You concerned about how long we've gone without artwork decisions?
[04:01] <heno> viper550: for the simple reason that we have to package the stuff tomorrow
[04:01] <viper550> Yeah, that is a HUGE problem
[04:01] <heno> the release candidate ships Thursdays, which mean we upload on Wednesday
[04:01] <viper550> We might be voting tonight, here on IRC
[04:01] <heno> facts of life ...
[04:02] <heno> er, we have a voting system set up now. What's wrong with that?
[04:04] <viper550> where is it? is it that email one? or is it the Launchpad one THAT STILL ISN'T SET UP?
[04:04] <heno> viper550: the email one
[04:04] <viper550> yeah, that one! I voted on that
[04:05] <heno> ok, so all is well :)
[04:05] <viper550> (if you wonder, I voted for my Tangerine usplash artwork that has been all the rage
[04:05] <heno> cool
[04:06] <viper550> Think that one should win?
[04:07] <viper550> You wanna know a big shocker about my Linux computer?
[04:07] <viper550> I'll tell you a not-so-secret: I don't use Ubuntu anymore
[04:20] <pirast> lol..
[04:20] <pirast> heno, the voting system is okay for me :-)
[04:21] <heno> pirast: thanks. It's very improvised, but we are in a time crunch, so ...
[04:21] <pirast> heno: yup, i know. it's hard to make everyone happy in such a short time
[04:23] <pirast> will you count by hand? hehe
[04:24] <heno> pirast: well, I don't expect I'll be getting thousands, so yes
[04:24] <pirast> okay ;-)
[10:26] <mgalvin> hmm, why are the desktop images stored as /usr/share/backgrounds/warty-final-* in ubuntu-artwork?
[11:33] <lapo> hi
[11:39] <poningru> LEAVE THE ICONS ALONE
[11:40] <lapo> uhm?
[11:40] <kwwii> hrm?
[11:41] <kwwii> funky
[11:41] <lapo> I'm not going to leave the icons alone! :-)
[12:30] <poningru> eh sorry about the certain shouting that took place
[12:30] <poningru> it was a friend simply telling my feelings
[07:14] <lapo> hi
[09:39] <wasabi> Oh. Didn't know about here.
[09:39] <wasabi> Anybody selling circle ubuntu logo stickers/
[09:39] <wasabi> No text.
[09:41] <wasabi> Heh. Wonder if the splash screen can be made to animate, like OS X.
[09:41] <wasabi> If so, simple rotating logo. Nothing else.
[12:15] <aphorism> who lives?
[04:48] <aphorism> .
[04:48] <Madpilot> hi all
[04:48] <troy_s> greetz
[04:55] <troy_s> is there anyone else alive in here?
[04:56] <troy_s> apparently not.
[07:44] <nysosym> good morning :D
[07:44] <Madpilot> hi
[07:44] <nysosym> hi Madpilot how are u? :)
[07:44] <Madpilot> good
[07:45] <nysosym> nice :)
[07:45] <nysosym> any news about artworks? :D
[07:45] <Madpilot> are you on the artwork mailing list?
[07:51] <nysosym> hmm no sry :-/
[07:52] <nysosym> but a short summary where really nice :)
[07:52] <Madpilot> short summary: stuff is being packaged for Dapper as we speak.
[07:53] <nysosym> ahh okay, are u a developer or Designer? :)
[07:53] <Madpilot> for artwork, neither, I'm mostly a spectator
[07:53] <nysosym> i`m too :D
[07:53] <nysosym> will be there a new GDM Theme in Dapper?
[07:54] <Madpilot> I think so
[07:54] <nysosym> very good :)
[07:55] <Madpilot> new icons & desktop themes too
[05:27] <lapo> hi
[05:49] <troy_s> heyas lapo
[05:50] <lapo> yo troy_s
[06:50] <troy_s> how you doing lapo?
[06:50] <troy_s> you involved on the mailing list?
[06:51] <lapo> troy_s: doing icons mostly, I have not much time to follow the discussion on the ml, but I'm suscribed
[06:55] <troy_s> ok great.
[06:56] <troy_s> i start another show in a little while, but i am going to try and simplify the wiki structure a bit
[06:56] <troy_s> and get a little more organization in place.
[06:57] <troy_s> currently, the artwork team suffers from horrible organization
[06:57] <troy_s> and a lack of clarity.
[08:02] <lapo> troy_s: true
[08:02] <lapo> there is no coordination at all
[08:26] <troy_s> yep
[08:26] <troy_s> i just sent out an email
[08:26] <troy_s> we shall start with very teeny baby steps
[08:26] <troy_s> please email me your information
[08:27] <troy_s> and if you are on the forums, suggest that the mailing list be the primary avenue for discourse.
[08:57] <lapo> ciao guys
[10:37] <lapo> hi
[05:40] <jimmac> 'lo lapo
[06:00] <lapo> ciao jimmac
[07:15] <troy_s> ping
[07:15] <lukacu> pong :)
[07:17] <troy_s> greetings luka
[07:17] <lukacu> hi
[09:20] <omeg> Love the activity now.
[09:20] <omeg> IRC is still a little quiet...
[09:21] <omeg> I wonder if I can group nicks.
[09:27] <theCore> it's true that channel is quiet
[09:27] <theCore> most of activity is in the Mailing list
[11:07] <lapo> hi there
[11:41] <msikma> Hi
[02:46] <troy_s> hey andyfitx
[02:46] <troy_s> you in?
[02:46] <troy_s> anyone in?
[02:46] <troy_s> this forum is dark like the inside of a cow.
[03:37] <Who_> Can anyone give me a quick hand with some Clearlooks/Ubuntulooks theming?
[03:37] <Who_> (I am writing my first theme, so misconceptions/misunderstandings are likely!)
[03:50] <troy_s> laf
[03:53] <Who_> laf?
[03:54] <troy_s> yeah sorry who, as of a couple of days ago there were about 5 idles in here.
[03:54] <troy_s> its improving, but i don't know if you can find someone to help immediately.
[03:54] <Madpilot> the mailing list is far more active (some of it's even productive, in between ranting & frothing...)
[03:57] <troy_s> laf
[03:57] <troy_s> i agree.
[03:57] <troy_s> nice to see you here madpilot
[03:57] <troy_s> did you send me your contact stuffs?
[03:57] <troy_s> the response has been good.
[03:58] <Madpilot> haven't yet. will, though
[04:00] <Who_> well, can I have your opinions on the theme I'm working on, I'll whack up a screenshot
[04:04] <Who_> http://mailforwho.googlepages.com/Whoman-TheWidgetFactory.png
[04:04] <Who_> perhaps gives away my liking of Industrial a little...
[04:04] <Madpilot> OSX inspired?
[04:04] <Who_> in that it is blue and shiny, I guess so.
[04:05] <Who_> I liked ubuntulooks in blue, but not the scrollbars or progressbar, so they are from clearlooks-cairo
[04:06] <Who_> very generic and 'background' - and no good I think for Ubuntu default, etc, cos it is just too normal
[04:07] <Madpilot> what is the package name of that widget-factory thing?
[04:09] <Madpilot> anyone? The one in Who_'s screenshot...
[04:10] <Who_> it's called 'the widget factory'
[04:10] <Who_> from http://www.stellingwerff.com/?page_id=10
[04:10] <Madpilot> is it in repos? I can't see anything that looks likely in Synaptic
[04:10] <Who_> nope
[04:10] <Madpilot> ah, nevermind
[04:11] <Who_> but compiling was no hassle for me
[04:11] <Madpilot> thanks
[04:22] <Madpilot> meh - blue themes make me twitch, I have flashbacks to XP's awful blue/orange kiddy-toy default appearance...
[04:26] <Who_> what colours do you normally use?
[04:27] <Who_> I am liking 'clean' things at the moment (which I think in some ways OSX isn't
[04:27] <Madpilot> I have a homebrew theme that's brownish, but slightly redder than Ubuntu's default brown
[04:30] <Who_> hmm, do you think that a ruby red theme would be cool, or just too bright?
[04:31] <Madpilot> could be too bright, but it might be cool - it would depend on the exact colours
[04:32] <Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Breezy-desktop.png <-- my desktop, currently
[04:45] <troy_s> wholly cow
[04:45] <troy_s> irc chat
[04:45] <dinda> well, at least a room  ;-)
[04:46] <Who_> Madpilot:That's a pretty customised panel!
[04:46] <Madpilot> I like gnome's applets ;)
[06:50] <id_sonic> hi
[06:52] <troy_s> howdy id
[06:56] <id_sonic> :)
[06:57] <id_sonic> troy , do you know howto join the ubuntu artwork term?
[06:57] <troy_s> did you go to the wiki?
[06:58] <troy_s> i have reorganized it to make it pretty clear
[06:58] <troy_s> (hopefully)
[06:58] <troy_s> give it a shot
[06:59] <id_sonic> I come from the wiki...
[06:59] <troy_s> well it apparently is working
[06:59] <troy_s> did you check the three things out there?
[06:59] <troy_s> 1) mailing list
[06:59] <troy_s> 2) irc
[06:59] <troy_s> 3) launchpad
[06:59] <troy_s> although launchpad needs some structuring
[07:00] <troy_s> join the mailing list if you want to get involved quickly.
[07:00] <id_sonic> yeah, only not mailling , I will join it soon.
[07:01] <troy_s> trying to make the mailing list the primary form of activity
[07:01] <troy_s> as everyone's time zone is soooooo different.
[07:01] <troy_s> and if you look at the irc logs, not much gets accomplished here.
[07:01] <troy_s> so to that end, there is a little structuring going on.
[07:37] <troy_s> hey mich
[07:37] <troy_s> how you doing?
[07:38] <Madpilot> random Ubuntu artwork moment: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Canada_strap.svg <-- one of my new proposals for an Ubuntu.ca logo
[07:38] <troy_s> looking...
[07:38] <troy_s> nice... try some rings.
[07:39] <troy_s> great concept though...
[07:39] <Madpilot> inside the maple leaves?
[07:39] <Madpilot> troy_s, where from?
[07:39] <troy_s> naw like arms maybe?
[07:39] <troy_s> bathtime
[07:39] <troy_s> afk
[07:47] <troy_s> back
[07:47] <troy_s> not much chatting whilst i was gone
[07:48] <Madpilot> troy_s, where in BC, if you don't mind me asking? I'm in Victoria myself.
[07:49] <troy_s> Maple Ridge...
[07:49] <troy_s> Hey Mich
[07:49] <troy_s> You still herE?
[07:50] <troy_s> I think our best avenue right now is to keep the structured talks going in the wiki.
[07:50] <troy_s> check the logs of the irc chats... they don't yield much.
[07:50] <troy_s> again, lack of structure.
[07:50] <troy_s> there isn't too much we can't accomplish on the wiki and it really solves the time zone things...
[07:50] <troy_s> anyways, let me know what you think
[07:50] <Madpilot> having an actual agenda for IRC meetings helps - and someone to enforce the agenda.
[07:51] <Madpilot> Look at the Ubuntu CC meetings - often very busy & always well attended, but stuff gets done at them
[07:54] <troy_s> yep
[07:54] <troy_s> i agree.
[07:54] <troy_s> but for the large part, it strikes me that these irc meetings are vastly overrated.
[07:54] <troy_s> a) posting lets people think things through a little more.
[07:55] <troy_s> b) time zones are NOT an issue
[07:55] <troy_s> c) missing meetings is not an issue
[07:55] <troy_s> d) more democratic
[07:55] <troy_s> etc.
[07:55] <troy_s> just my 2 pennies though...
[07:57] <msikma> Hi troy_s
[07:57] <troy_s> nice to meet you in person mich
[07:57] <msikma> Very nice Canada logo.
[07:58] <msikma> Hah. This isn't exactly in person, though :)
[07:58] <troy_s> well as close as we might get for a while :)
[07:58] <msikma> Nice to meet you too, we've exchanged some good e-mails.
[07:58] <troy_s> anyways, what are your thoughts on this elusive meeting?
[07:58] <troy_s> i know from my side that my sched is absolutely ridiculous so i certainly cannot meet
[07:58] <troy_s> and I wonder how many other full timers are able to do that...
[07:59] <msikma> To be honest, I'd rather have that meeting at some point in the future than new mock-ups for Edgy themes the next few days.
[07:59] <troy_s> mad that logo is very nice
[07:59] <troy_s> oh
[07:59] <troy_s> god
[07:59] <troy_s> ;)
[07:59] <troy_s> yah i hear.
[07:59] <troy_s> you.
[07:59] <troy_s> check this out...
[07:59] <troy_s> its a dev doc, something i am a bit accustomed to
[07:59] <troy_s> it is a pre -alpha, but trying...
[08:00] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TroySobotka/WorkInProgress
[08:00] <troy_s> Do you work in graphic art mich?
[08:02] <msikma> That looks like a solid doc. Maybe we could extend it to contain references to a concrete aim when we decide that we have one.
[08:03] <troy_s> exactly
[08:03] <troy_s> i am merely trying to get some form of formal outline
[08:03] <troy_s> which is lacking in the team
[08:03] <msikma> Yeah, I work as graphic and web designer at Rotterdam Design Center (http://www.dcworks.nl/).
[08:03] <troy_s> development docs are wonderful for folks who don't know where / how / etc to contribute
[08:03] <troy_s> and it prevents full blown mockups of edgy window samples etc.
[08:03] <troy_s> laf.
[08:03] <msikma> Yeah, I like them. I also feel it's always important to have some kind of reference material that can tell you how and what.
[08:03] <troy_s> but i think you are already in the same head space.
[08:04] <troy_s> totally
[08:04] <troy_s> 1000000% agreement
[08:04] <troy_s> i like textures
[08:04] <troy_s> and references
[08:04] <troy_s> and color schemas
[08:04] <troy_s> etc.
[08:04] <troy_s> otherwise everyone is just a scattered bunch of soldiers shooting random enemies.
[08:04] <msikma> :)
[08:05] <troy_s> hopefully we can steer it that way.
[08:05] <troy_s> pascal has been great too...
[08:05] <troy_s> considering that the team can barely get a logical and useful usplash submission page setup i think the best steps are small and simple ones with solid foundational structure.
[08:06] <msikma> Yeah, I agree. I feel as though there are lots of smart people viewing that mailing list.
[08:06] <troy_s> we just need a way to focus
[08:06] <msikma> You know, I really need to figure out how to make themes like the mock-ups that have been shown. I haven't ever done that.
[08:06] <troy_s> pretty simple
[08:06] <troy_s> i can step you thru it if you want.
[08:06] <troy_s> but i must sleep shortly.
[08:06] <troy_s> your site is flash based
[08:06] <troy_s> i can't view it.
[08:06] <troy_s> :(
[08:06] <msikma> Thanks, but that's okay right now, since I've got work in 30 minutes.
[08:07] <troy_s> ick
[08:07] <troy_s> uggh
[08:07] <msikma> Aw, you can't view it? Is the text gone?
[08:07] <troy_s> flash is proprietary
[08:07] <troy_s> non open source
[08:07] <troy_s> i run a dual core 64 bit system
[08:07] <troy_s> no 64 bit compile
[08:07] <msikma> Ah, there's no Flash player for 64-bit yet.
[08:07] <troy_s> won't be for a while
[08:07] <troy_s> and well...
[08:07] <troy_s> the web is sort of supposed to be about standards...
[08:07] <troy_s> and flash isn't really one.
[08:07] <troy_s> java will make it when they go open source, which appears sooner.
[08:08] <troy_s> i had flash up in a limited 32bit mode, but i can't support adobe so i didn't bother redoing it.
[08:08] <msikma> I disagree with you on that. The web is, in my profession, a method for companies to gain more revenue by presenting themselves, their style and their strategy online to potential clients. I agree that Flash is not always the greatest solution, and I would actually also rather work on HTML sites, but this is just my profession at this point.
[08:09] <troy_s> flash isn't a standard nor needed
[08:09] <troy_s> you can accomplish the same results using other technologies
[08:09] <troy_s> grail had a very cool little thing that would let you run python applets
[08:09] <msikma> The kind of sites we make are mostly small sites that exist to represent the style of companies.
[08:09] <troy_s> which was very nifty.
[08:09] <troy_s> well, considering that many folks out there are running native 64 bit boxes
[08:09] <troy_s> that choice limits exposure.
[08:10] <troy_s> its just an education thing.
[08:10] <msikma> I feel that I should tell you that I disagree if you have some kind of zealous avertion towards Flash. Again, I must point out that this is my job. I also prefer HTML sites. This is, however, how companies want to profile themselves, and it is arguably also a great platform to do so.
[08:10] <troy_s> not many people are aware of the downsides until they are forced to deal with it.
[08:10] <troy_s> no zealous here...
[08:10] <troy_s> just reality
[08:11] <troy_s> the toolset is very limited.
[08:11] <troy_s> the scripting is buggy
[08:11] <troy_s> etc.
[08:11] <msikma> Okay, you can stop now.
[08:11] <troy_s> laf.
[08:11] <msikma> I don't want to listen to you bring down what I do for a living.
[08:11] <troy_s> ack
[08:11] <troy_s> sorry if you are that tied to your job.
[08:11] <troy_s> i apologize.
[08:13] <troy_s> where did you school mich?
[08:13] <msikma> You know, I'm a great fan of open standards and, as I said, would prefer to work on HTML sites. But at the end of the day, I've got a job. I realize that I'm not like some of the other Ubuntu devs in that I simply won't use such software, but I feel that I shouldn't limit myself like that.
[08:14] <troy_s> it's not entirely limiting really
[08:14] <troy_s> most people who agree on a philosophical issue
[08:14] <troy_s> don't say things like 'it doesn't do xxx or yyy' but rather 'let's make it do xxx and yyy'
[08:14] <troy_s> its all about freedom
[08:15] <msikma> Preventing myself from using software seems like limitation to me. I also can't tell those companies that they can't have x or y for a site because that would require Flash and I don't want to use it.
[08:15] <troy_s> and closed source software doesn't offer that sort of option.
[08:15] <troy_s> no but as more people start to see limitations of mp3, flash, etc
[08:15] <troy_s> they start to choose other options.
[08:15] <troy_s> as i said, it is all largely around knowledge
[08:15] <msikma> Thing is, some amazing things can be done with HTML, but it still doesn't have the same capabilities as Flash does in some areas. Flash is for one kind of thing, HTML is for a bunch of others.
[08:15] <troy_s> and the commercial software industry would rather keep you in the dark.
[08:16] <troy_s> um... that's a rather polemical view
[08:16] <troy_s> web browsers were founded on standards.  that is why they became successful.
[08:16] <troy_s> that is why they exist today.
[08:17] <msikma> One could say that Flash was created because of discontent with the lack of support for proper presentation on the Web. Lack of support for proper animation. There's not even a possibility of using one's own fonts.
[08:17] <troy_s> how many people test their sites in more than say, three browsers?
[08:17] <troy_s> or use the www consortium tests?
[08:17] <troy_s> and yes there is ...
[08:18] <troy_s> but alas, i don't expect you to even worry about it.  Just watch.
[08:18] <msikma> I don't know. Like I said, I've got a job. I test my sites in the browsers which people use a lot. This includes Linux, but I mainly test it to see if Internet Explorer 6.0 will handle the site. That's what my customers' target group uses.
[08:18] <troy_s> really?
[08:18] <msikma> Yes.
[08:19] <troy_s> based on statistics?
[08:19] <troy_s> one would hope you test it using firefox as well now.
[08:19] <msikma> Of course I do.
[08:19] <troy_s> anyways... i don't really mind.
[08:19] <msikma> But the bottom line is that, if anything, it should work in Internet Explorer. I always make my sites work in Safari, Firefox and Opera as well, though. That's not much of a problem, since they're much easier to work with.
[08:19] <troy_s> the bulk of my industry is moving to linux and open source.
[08:20] <troy_s> but if you make your site work with say, epiphany, those others are guaranteed to work :)
[08:20] <troy_s> that's the point of standards.
[08:20] <troy_s> it saves you time and energy
[08:20] <msikma> I don't recommend the use of Flash to people who want certain sites that should have a good sense of usability. Flash impedes usability, so we only create small sites with it that need to just show off a bunch of cool graphics, really.
[08:20] <troy_s> linux isn't an end all... it is merely a baby step.
[08:20] <msikma> That's what I feel Flash is for.
[08:21] <troy_s> well a company that ignores 64 bit chips for 6 years now...
[08:21] <troy_s> silly
[08:21] <msikma> Yeah, that's awful. I'm also really offended by the fact Adobe won't make a universal binary for Photoshop CS2.
[08:21] <troy_s> why bother?
[08:21] <troy_s> they have competition now
[08:21] <msikma> They will require you to buy CS3 if you want to run your software at a normal speed.
[08:22] <troy_s> normal
[08:22] <troy_s> laf.
[08:22] <troy_s> universals are interpreted, they take a bit of a performance hit
[08:22] <troy_s> try a 64 bit native app
[08:22] <troy_s> its hard to beat them
[08:22] <msikma> Maybe.
[08:22] <troy_s> of course, there are no 64 bit editions of anything out there in commercial land
[08:22] <troy_s> osx uses all 32 bit libs
[08:22] <troy_s> and now they went back to intel 32 bit libs.
[08:22] <troy_s> the only source of 64 bit computing is open source land.
[08:23] <troy_s> and let me tell you, waiting on a blur stinks.
[08:23] <troy_s> you going to paris?
[08:24] <msikma> It starts 18th June, right?
[08:25] <msikma> I thought that would be mainly for developers that work on programming rather than artwork.
[08:25] <troy_s> not a chance
[08:26] <msikma> I'm not sure if I would be able to attend. It would be pretty fun, though.
[08:28] <troy_s> indeed
[08:29] <troy_s> there are going to be a few art folks there.
[08:29] <troy_s> really though, it is my firm belief that about 99% of the problems can be solved with a simple structure in place.
[08:29] <msikma> I wish it was a weekend rather than from Sunday to, what is it, Wednesday?
[08:29] <troy_s> 28th to something
[08:29] <troy_s> monday to sat
[08:29] <msikma> By the way, what are your thoughts on the recently submitted "ice" themes?
[08:30] <troy_s> way way way too far ahead of themselves
[08:30] <troy_s> i am a simpleton
[08:30] <troy_s> and i was trained that way
[08:30] <msikma> Yeah, I agree with that. They're kind of moving ahead of time.
[08:30] <troy_s> uhhh WAY ahead of time?
[08:30] <troy_s> what are our targets?
[08:30] <troy_s> which we WILL set
[08:30] <troy_s> but we don't have any yet.
[08:30] <msikma> Sit down and wait for this release thing to happen is one of them. :)
[08:30] <troy_s> we don't even know how to communicate to the kubuntu / etc teams
[08:31] <troy_s> well... we actually need a structure in place to START edgy
[08:31] <troy_s> design docs etc.
[08:31] <troy_s> otherwise, schedules will kill us -- as most if not all are busy as hell.
[08:31] <troy_s> i work 14 hours a day average
[08:31] <troy_s> six day weeks sometimes.
[08:32] <troy_s> thin room for reading through wordy wiki pages and gobs of unrelated rants on the mailing list.
[08:32] <msikma> That's a lot of work. I thankfully am employed on a salary 8 hour basis. I usually work 8.5 hours, though.
[08:32] <troy_s> i work hourly... so it works out ok :)
[08:32] <msikma> Speaking of the wiki, I'll toss in some new structure ideas at work.
[08:32] <msikma> Heh, then that's nice.
[08:32] <troy_s> i think we need to lead on simplicity
[08:32] <troy_s> where did you school sik?
[08:32] <troy_s> or did you?
[08:33] <msikma> I went to an education about web design and marketing for a year, but didn't like it. Then I was able to start at a pretty well-known design company in Rotterdam so I decided to just start doing that for a few years before going back to school.
[08:33] <troy_s> The previous incarnation of the Wiki was WAY too cumbersome, and WAY too distracted, disjointed, and scattered.
[08:33] <troy_s> ah.
[08:34] <troy_s> we need to avoid blah blah blah blah blah and cut to short facts
[08:34] <msikma> I'm thinking of starting a graphic design education in the next few years.
[08:34] <troy_s> again, saving time
[08:34] <troy_s> go get an art degree
[08:34] <msikma> I do think it's very useful to concisely word things, though.
[08:34] <troy_s> well statistics show that people don't really look at webpages.
[08:34] <troy_s> they scan them
[08:34] <troy_s> so we need to deal with that.
[08:34] <troy_s> the agenda page is evolving nicely
[08:35] <troy_s> pascal has put some good thoughts in
[08:35] <troy_s> etc.
[08:35] <troy_s> and again, most of the topics there can be resolved VERY quickly via the mailinglist
[08:35] <msikma> I agree. Still, there's no excuse for simply not including information when writing about things. That's what the old wiki did a lot. I notice that, for example, pages which refer to the mailing list actually have a link to it now.
[08:35] <msikma> That's nice.
[08:35] <troy_s> and we already have a paper trail -- no need to record secretary things...
[08:35] <troy_s> laf
[08:35] <troy_s> little details
[08:35] <troy_s> it needs to be intuitive
[08:35] <troy_s> and clean
[08:35] <troy_s> and not laden with garbage
[08:35] <msikma> Yeah.
[08:36] <troy_s> it didn't work like that
[08:36] <troy_s> and it won't
[08:36] <troy_s> it also needs to be cohesive -- it needs to feel the same from page to page so that people can navigate easily.
[08:36] <troy_s> hence the contents and children listings.
[08:36] <msikma> It also simply discourages people from even bothering to join up in the first place.
[08:36] <troy_s> completely
[08:36] <msikma> Bad wiki structure.
[08:36] <troy_s> yep
[08:36] <troy_s> so we have a simple plan in place
[08:36] <troy_s> if we can stick to it
[08:36] <troy_s> i think it will yield results.
[08:36] <troy_s> hell -- it already has
[08:36] <troy_s> and it is very immature
[08:37] <msikma> Can you make templates on the wiki?
[08:37] <troy_s> cut paste
[08:37] <msikma> I'd like to make a navigational template that has all links.
[08:37] <troy_s> use the first page
[08:37] <msikma> Hmm.
[08:37] <troy_s> use ArtworkTeam
[08:37] <troy_s> for the contents
[08:37] <troy_s> another thing
[08:37] <troy_s> is [[FootNote
[08:37] <troy_s> very handy
[08:37] <msikma> I'll just put it in the root.
[08:37] <troy_s> well
[08:37] <troy_s> TRY if you can to fit it into the existing pages.
[08:37] <troy_s> without BLOBBING the heck out of the flow
[08:37] <troy_s> like pascal did on
[08:37] <troy_s> the agenda page
[08:38] <troy_s> notice how he put links in instead of quotes for shuttleworth's comments
[08:38] <troy_s> very slick
[08:38] <troy_s> as you can still 'scan' the page.
[08:38] <troy_s> quite easily.
[08:38] <troy_s> and the contents work nicely.
[08:38] <troy_s> with me?
[08:38] <msikma> Yeah, sure.
[08:38] <msikma> I'll get something going there.
[08:39] <troy_s> i spent way too many hours sorting through the garbage to try and unify all the information
[08:39] <msikma> I gotta go now. It's time to finish that Flash platformer game for a baby food company. :)
[08:39] <troy_s> it should be like a magazine.
[08:39] <troy_s> yep
[08:39] <troy_s> be good.
[08:39] <troy_s> chat soon sik
[08:39] <troy_s> i'm out too
[08:39] <msikma> Sure thing, see you around. Let's mail.
[08:39] <troy_s> night all
[08:39] <troy_s> take care sik
[09:34] <id_sonic> exit
[03:34] <id_sonic> heihei
[03:34] <id_sonic> hello
[04:10] <lapo> hi
[07:34] <sivang> ih all
[07:34] <sivang> hi all
[07:35] <sivang> I heared that someone is working on a logo / icon for HomeUserBackup that is targetted to enter into edgy
[07:35] <sivang> is there anything ready already?
[07:56] <troy_s> greetz
[08:12] <bersace> hi
[08:12] <bersace> has the meeting been registered ?
[08:12] <bersace> Is it possible to add it in the launchpad ubuntu-art calendar ?
[08:12] <bersace> is it possible to use a webcal or other to add it to Evolution Calendar ?
[08:24] <troy_s> wow
[08:25] <troy_s> i think the meeting is just plain stupid
[08:25] <troy_s> but that is only my 2pennies
[08:25] <troy_s> organization isn't going to manifest out of a random incoherent irc chat.
[08:25] <troy_s> and everything that I can see on the agenda can be tackled easily in mailing list.
[08:28] <bersace> so no meeting for 4 June ?
[08:29] <bersace> having a subject ofr a meeting is important
[08:29] <bersace> what will be the subject of 4 june meeting ?
[08:29] <troy_s> exactly
[08:29] <troy_s> have you been to the wiki?
[08:30] <troy_s> progress happens on the wiki and that mailing list.
[08:31] <lapo> troy_s: I think is to early to talk about edgy, dapper has still to come out
[08:31] <troy_s> totall!
[08:31] <troy_s> someone who finally agrees with me.
[08:31] <troy_s> and we have NO ZERO NONE ZILTCH structure in place to accomodate _anything_
[08:32] <troy_s> it ends up dumped in the bloody wiki like a landfill.
[08:32] <bersace> imho, we should a) organise art team b) review dapper artwork (what was good/wrong c) plan for edgy
[08:32] <troy_s> yep
[08:32] <troy_s> and that means design doc
[08:32] <lapo> I'm not sure I'll like the infrastructure if that means a lot of people arguing a nobody working on stuff tho
[08:32] <troy_s> which i have spec'd a looose loooooooose looooooose one
[08:32] <troy_s> of course.
[08:32] <bersace> i should subscribe to ArtworkTeam Wikipage :)
[08:33] <troy_s> all infrastructure will do is tell us what the hell we need to do
[08:33] <troy_s> and where...
[08:33] <troy_s> i _have_ done this sort of thing professionally before, and creativity needs structure.
[08:33] <troy_s> or else it is a flailfest like we all can see on the mailing list.
[08:33] <troy_s> agree?
[08:33] <troy_s> irc is GREAT for times like this
[08:33] <troy_s> get to meet some folks
[08:33] <troy_s> chat
[08:33] <troy_s> discuss new things...
[08:33] <troy_s> but look at the logs... the previous art meeting didn't accomplish anything.
[08:34] <troy_s> and were attended by very few.
[08:34] <bersace> troy_s: what is for you a theme ?
[08:34] <troy_s> also, i imagine i am going to learn a little from paris...
[08:35] <troy_s> theme?
[08:35] <bersace> i saw https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content/DefaultUbuntu
[08:35] <troy_s> do you mean like motif?
[08:35] <bersace> and wonder what constitue a theme
[08:35] <troy_s> oh... i tried to start that up
[08:35] <bersace> according to gnome, it is gtk+metacity+icon
[08:35] <troy_s> so that people can ONE click and see the entire 'look and feel' of the desktop
[08:35] <bersace> but oviously, this is much more
[08:35] <troy_s> color scheme, window looks, wallpaper, etc?
[08:35] <bersace> also, there is two part of a theme : system wide and session wide themes
[08:35] <bersace> yeq
[08:36] <bersace> yes
[08:36] <troy_s> maybe you can help me out there.
[08:36] <troy_s> i think smaller thumbnails would be totally helpful
[08:36] <troy_s> i just braindumped what i could...
[08:37] <bersace> we must define what is a theme
[08:37] <troy_s> Great idea.
[08:37] <bersace> what do we work on !
[08:37] <troy_s> well we need to start with what we have
[08:37] <troy_s> and that is what that page is attempting
[08:37] <bersace> of course
[08:37] <troy_s> what we work on is different though
[08:37] <troy_s> because that will involve mark
[08:37] <troy_s> new additions to edgy that need our attention
[08:37] <troy_s> overall flow
[08:37] <troy_s> which is missing
[08:37] <bersace> we should put that definition in which page ?
[08:38] <troy_s> no cohesive structure resulted in 10000s of great tidbits of art that aren't working together
[08:38] <bersace> ArtworkTeam/Content/.. ?
[08:38] <troy_s> well maybe try organizing what you feel is a nice one click look at the default ubuntu desktop on that DefaultUbuntu page
[08:38] <troy_s> small efforts move mountains.
[08:38] <troy_s> thumbnail the cursors, the icons, etc?
[08:38] <troy_s> i don't know where to mine for that stuff.
[08:38] <troy_s> i only could find the desktop
[08:38] <troy_s> i could find the splash too...
[08:38] <troy_s> hold on...
[08:39] <troy_s> i'll thumbnail it.
[08:39] <bersace> okey, so DefaultUbuntu show what is a theme for now ?
[08:40] <troy_s> yep
[08:40] <troy_s> that's the idea
[08:40] <troy_s> so that you can visualize ALL the components
[08:40] <troy_s> and say 'hey the walllpaper doesn't match the splash!'
[08:40] <troy_s> u editing it ?
[08:40] <troy_s> let me get this attachment on it.
[08:42] <troy_s> done
[08:43] <troy_s> u still here ber?
[08:43] <lapo> troy_s: the first thing that needs to be addressed is some sort of leadership I believe
[08:44] <troy_s> it will evolve
[08:44] <lapo> design by community doesn't work
[08:44] <troy_s> you are kidding right lapo?
[08:44] <troy_s> of course we need to make decisions
[08:44] <lapo> nope
[08:44] <troy_s> via polls (and that has been established at Launchpad)
[08:44] <troy_s> but once we arrive at a democratic path
[08:44] <troy_s> we need to follow it
[08:44] <troy_s> not sulk
[08:44] <lapo> it wont work
[08:44] <troy_s> laf.
[08:45] <troy_s> it has worked for free software since its inception
[08:45] <troy_s> but maybe you know otherwise.
[08:45] <lapo> never worked with design
[08:45] <troy_s> very little professionals have been involved in the design of free software
[08:45] <troy_s> very few rather
[08:45] <troy_s> it is a gradual process.
[08:45] <lapo> design is another thing
[08:45] <troy_s> it requires people who speak the same language (meaning art, not spanish)
[08:46] <troy_s> design is design is design.  If you think architecture is easier to design than art, you are in the dark.
[08:46] <lapo> elect a eader and give him somle sort of final decision on stuff
[08:46] <troy_s> the fact that i can type on a community driven kernel is a testament to it.
[08:46] <troy_s> absolutely
[08:46] <troy_s> ombudsmen
[08:46] <troy_s> for when there are deadlocks
[08:46] <troy_s> that's it
[08:46] <troy_s> we all can vote
[08:47] <lapo> kernel has a leadership
[08:47] <troy_s> that SHOULD work in 99% of situations.
[08:47] <troy_s> and that is being dealt with
[08:47] <troy_s> read the wiki
[08:47] <troy_s> pascal posted links to marks thoughts
[08:47] <troy_s> and we are going to tackle those.
[08:47] <lapo> yep I know the wiki and mark thought I'm just not sure it will work
[08:47] <troy_s> if it never got written down on the wiki, if irc didn't start happening again, if the mailing list didn't start with activity, etc...
[08:47] <troy_s> it is a slow process
[08:48] <troy_s> but look how far we have come in only a short week or two
[08:48] <troy_s> its promising
[08:48] <troy_s> no?
[08:48] <lapo> we get that far because there's people working and not rguing all the time :-)
[08:48] <troy_s> you need to voice your concerns on the list though lap.
[08:48] <troy_s> yah well creative debates are healthy
[08:48] <troy_s> just as long the bickering is kept down
[08:48] <troy_s> ignore the trolls.
[08:49] <troy_s> its like any other list yah?
[08:49] <lapo> I have no time now, I after dapper release I'll try to write down what I think
[08:49] <troy_s> let it stew
[08:49] <troy_s> we all have ZERO time
[08:49] <troy_s> which is why i think a meeting is just silly.
[08:50] <lapo> I actually prefer meeting to ml
[08:50] <troy_s> well yer meeting now.
[08:50] <troy_s> and as irc gets going it will take better strides
[08:50] <troy_s> my problem with formal meetings is
[08:51] <troy_s> A) they don't accomplish anything beyond what can be accomplished on teh list
[08:51] <troy_s> B) the list is more democratic if you let people check their mail for a week
[08:51] <troy_s> C) they don't accomplish anything (check the logs) -- unless we are brainstorming then they can be useful to have in realtime.
[08:51] <lapo> irc is faster then ml
[08:51] <troy_s> D) EVERYONE can read the list, shortage of time permitting.
[08:51] <troy_s> of course...
[08:52] <troy_s> which is great for brainstorming.
[08:52] <troy_s> but we aren't really in need of brainstorming.
[08:52] <Who_> I think the advantage of the meeting is that it forces people to stay one one track till it is done and decided
[08:52] <Who_> lists go round and round
[08:52] <troy_s> who:  i'd say we are TRYING to stay on one track now.
[08:52] <troy_s> yah but you see, the wiki is great for that.
[08:52] <lapo> we need the right people on irc at the same time tho
[08:52] <troy_s> look at the agenda page.
[08:52] <Who_> oh yea, for sure - but as a general rule....
[08:52] <troy_s> lapo:  EXACTLY
[08:52] <lapo> btw, I have to go guys, later
[08:52] <troy_s> who -- this is ours.  let's say f*ckit to the general rule.
[08:52] <troy_s> take care lap
[08:52] <troy_s> see you soon.
[08:53] <Who_> see ya
[08:53] <Who_> well, I tried to get decisive today on the meeting dates! only two names in the list last time I checke
[08:53] <troy_s> who:  also the paper trail eliminates the need for a secretary.
[08:53] <Who_> d
[08:53] <Who_> yea, that's true
[08:53] <troy_s> who:  yep.  and i can't really commit.
[08:53] <troy_s> or else i would have
[08:54] <troy_s> which is why i am adamant that people look at the agenda and tell me what we can't accomplish between the wiki and the mailing list
[08:54] <Who_> I'm annoyed that I can't make the one Mark can -
[08:54] <troy_s> mark is _damn_ busy
[08:54] <troy_s> especially now
[08:54] <troy_s> so dragging him to a meeting strikes me as ...
[08:54] <Who_> for sure!
[08:54] <troy_s> unfortunate.
[08:54] <troy_s> with me?
[08:54] <troy_s> we all stand around and talk about the color of our hair.
[08:54] <Who_> but we really can't go without knowing what is going on, as per my additions to the agenda
[08:54] <troy_s> let's just TRY to make the agenda keep clicking as well as it is.
[08:54] <troy_s> absolutely1
[08:55] <Who_> not annoyed with you - no!
[08:55] <troy_s> but mark isn't going to tell us.
[08:55] <Who_> you reckon not
[08:55] <troy_s> he has stated to me directly that he will not enforce a mandate.
[08:55] <troy_s> it must evolve out of OUR community.
[08:55] <troy_s> further,
[08:55] <Who_> great!
[08:55] <troy_s> think about this momentarily who:
[08:55] <troy_s> so we get 16 pieces of info
[08:55] <troy_s> what do we do with them?
[08:55] <troy_s> ;)
[08:55] <troy_s> see my point?
[08:56] <Who_> less than I think I ought to....
[08:56] <Who_> :P
[08:56] <troy_s> it ends in a big stinky wiki log
[08:56] <troy_s> and no one knows where to look for info
[08:56] <Who_> oh, ok
[08:56] <troy_s> and POOF we are back at the start.
[08:56] <troy_s> everything is open and transparent on that wiki
[08:56] <troy_s> very democratic
[08:56] <troy_s> which i think is a positive thing...
[08:57] <Who_> If Mark isn't gonna give us clear direction we just need to decide that we are going to set the Agenda for Edgy (as in be the art-people)
[08:57] <troy_s> ok
[08:57] <Who_> yea, the wiki works quite well, but does get abandoned easily
[08:57] <troy_s> but look at what you are stating... cuz that is a HELL of a statement :)
[08:57] <troy_s> well who's fault is that?
[08:57] <troy_s> there are going to come times when you aren't going to be able to put the work in, so someone else has to.
[08:58] <troy_s> hopefully we all can work within the structure and not tear each other apart
[08:58] <Who_> I think it is because it is difficult to maintain a wiki page that is so democratic - no-one wants to remove other people's ideas because they don't want to step on toes
[08:58] <troy_s> open source's biggest weakness is the scatter bomb
[08:58] <troy_s> yah well...
[08:58] <troy_s> thus far it works
[08:58] <troy_s> if you have a problem with something
[08:58] <troy_s> post it.
[08:58] <troy_s> i am sure people will listen
[08:58] <troy_s> i know i will.
[08:59] <troy_s> wher eis bersace?
[08:59] <troy_s> hey BERSACE
[08:59] <Who_> yea. What I mean - is that if Mark isn't going to tell us then we have to decide - not do it all, necessarily, but be clear on our aims
[08:59] <troy_s> yep
[08:59] <bersace> troy_s: yes ?
[08:59] <troy_s> don't take this verbatim
[08:59] <troy_s> but look here:
[08:59] <troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/TroySobotka/WorkInProgress
[08:59] <troy_s> it is pre pre pre alpha again.
[08:59] <troy_s> but hopefully you can see a bit of hope in it.
[08:59] <troy_s> bersace, you working on scrambling some images together?
[09:00] <troy_s> how do you screenshot a gdm logon screen?
[09:00] <bersace> hh
[09:00] <bersace> xnest windowed
[09:00] <troy_s> aw christ... why didn't i think of that.  clever bugger.
[09:00] <Who_> gees, it's HUGE
[09:00] <troy_s> laf
[09:01] <troy_s> didn't spend long on it, just tried to bring some of my industry experience to the table.
[09:01] <troy_s> its still damn rough.
[09:01] <troy_s> so don't clobber it :)
[09:01] <Who_> I wrote a long doc of my own today - I'd love it if you guys could give an opinion
[09:01] <troy_s> sure.. can you post it under my dir on the wiki?
[09:01] <troy_s> TroySobotka/WhosWho
[09:01] <troy_s> or somefine?
[09:02] <troy_s> and remember, a design doc commands the entire stretch
[09:02] <Who_> ?
[09:02] <troy_s> so it needs to be quite exhaustive.
[09:02] <Who_> it is not related to the art team, sorry
[09:02] <troy_s> grr.
[09:02] <troy_s> laf.
[09:03] <troy_s> ber, can you snag a screener of the logon?
[09:03] <Who_> http://mailforwho.googlepages.com/nautilussidebarextensions
[09:04] <troy_s> great idea
[09:04] <troy_s> have you taken it to the ubuntu folks?
[09:04] <troy_s> or are planning to?
[09:04] <Who_> yea, I'll wait till edgy starts being talked about
[09:05] <Who_> if I do it now it will get buried
[09:05] <troy_s> yep
[09:05] <troy_s> the way it integrates is related to the art team too.
[09:05] <Who_> Do either of you guys use eclipse?
[09:05] <troy_s> so keep on it.
[09:05] <troy_s> ide?
[09:05] <troy_s> the IDE who?
[09:06] <Who_> yea, I am interested UI
[09:06] <Who_> yea, the IDE
[09:06] <troy_s> you code?
[09:06] <Who_> at work
[09:06] <troy_s> i haven't used it, but i hear it is quite good.
[09:06] <troy_s> it has some java backbone which is why i have avoided it.
[09:06] <Who_> but I write Windows apps in an MS environment and it has left me useless without it. Very clever!
[09:07] <bersace> i hate eclipse :)
[09:07] <bersace> far too bload
[09:07] <bersace> anjuta2 rox
[09:07] <troy_s> ber:  agree from what i have seen
[09:07] <Who_> yea, the whole thing is set up for java, and I want to write C++
[09:07] <bersace> emacs supersedes both :)
[09:07] <troy_s> i'm a vi guy
[09:07] <troy_s> sad.
[09:07] <troy_s> laf.
[09:07] <bersace> boo
[09:07] <troy_s> boo!?
[09:07] <troy_s> laf
[09:07] <bersace> vi sux
[09:07] <troy_s> ber
[09:07] <troy_s> help me
[09:07] <Who_> well, as this is likely to be my first little exploration into coding not-on-windows I'll try that
[09:07] <troy_s> screener that fricking gdm logon
[09:08] <bersace> sudo apt-get install xnest
[09:08] <troy_s> who:  start with python... it is gaining pretty massive acceptance
[09:08] <troy_s> danke ber.
[09:08] <bersace> then alacarte and enable new login in window
[09:08] <bersace> then launch it
[09:08] <troy_s> yah it used to be there no?
[09:08] <bersace> then Alt+Impr Syst
[09:08] <troy_s> i thought it was included before.
[09:08] <bersace> in category System Tools
[09:08] <troy_s> yeah it isn't there is it?
[09:09] <Who_> I have to say, seeing as I use c# at work, I was tempted to go down the mono route - but there seems to be quite a bit of resitance to mono building up in Ubuntu land...
[09:09] <troy_s> mono is microsoft...
[09:09] <troy_s> well
[09:09] <troy_s> not micro
[09:09] <troy_s> but yo uknow what i mean
[09:09] <troy_s> i think everyone is a little leery of ms developed 'standards'
[09:09] <troy_s> cuz they break them so readily
[09:10] <troy_s> and mono isn't mature yet.
[09:10] <troy_s> python is pretty darn incredible really.
[09:10] <troy_s> i can't say enough good things about it.
[09:10] <Who_> :P That's exactly why it suits! I haven't had windows on my PC at home for years - but at work...
[09:10] <troy_s> performance is the downside, but hell...
[09:11] <Who_> I must point out I'm pre-uni! I don't do any _difficult_ coding!
[09:11] <troy_s> then go with python
[09:11] <troy_s> it is on ALL platforms
[09:11] <troy_s> and is pretty darn great
[09:11] <troy_s> dynamic as hell
[09:11] <troy_s> embeddable
[09:11] <troy_s> etc.
[09:11] <Who_> why not GTK and C++?
[09:12] <troy_s> well... try coding in python first then get back to me.
[09:12] <troy_s> ;)
[09:12] <Who_> what do you use it for?
[09:12] <troy_s> its darn fast
[09:12] <troy_s> to get stuff up and running
[09:12] <Who_> lol
[09:12] <troy_s> and you just write it once, give it to your windows nerd and it works there too.
[09:12] <troy_s> like i said, it is pretty darn impressive
[09:12] <troy_s> all opensource too.
[09:12] <troy_s> and TONS of extra libs...
[09:13] <Who_> in a way, that worries me - it is the 'ease of getting running' with an MS IDE that has resulted in be being able to write a pretty big app at work, and have no real idea how to do the same without VisualStudio!!
[09:13] <troy_s> so you don' tneed to worry about binding messes.
[09:13] <troy_s> laf.
[09:13] <troy_s> yep
[09:13] <troy_s> the ms/ apple lure
[09:13] <Who_> that is what I am trying to get away from! I know that the hard bit must be coding itself, not getting the tools and using them to do everything together!
[09:14] <Who_> Novell are on to it with MonoDevelop though. Is there something like that for Python
[09:14] <Who_> ?
[09:16] <Who_> for example - simple question that I really ought to know the answer to. I have the industrial engine src here, I can build it fine, fun, happy etc. now if I wanted to modify it, would I have to do the whole compilation routine again, or is there a shortcut given I know I have the right environment?
[09:16] <troy_s> yep
[09:17] <troy_s> you will need to recompile your changes.
[09:17] <troy_s> and yes there are several rapid application development environs for python
[09:17] <troy_s> and glade is pretty darn good for interfaces.
[09:18] <Who_> /usr/share/doc/diveintopython
[09:18] <Who_> they installed it by default
[09:18] <troy_s> ;)
[09:18] <troy_s> good doc
[09:18] <Who_> just for the record...I knew I had to recompile the changes, I just hoped there was a quicker way :)
[09:18] <troy_s> uh...
[09:18] <troy_s> use pythong?
[09:18] <troy_s> laf.
[09:19] <troy_s> of course, python isn't suited for everything, but you at least need to try it to find out where the walls are.
[09:19] <Who_> right. My stomach is yelling abuse at me for abusing it for too long
[09:19] <Who_> thanks for the advice :). I'll get back to you with comments on the wiki a bit later
[09:20] <Who_> (should I just add theme to your workinprogresspage or would that be irritating for you?
[09:24] <troy_s> ???
[09:24] <troy_s> its everyones wiki bro.
[09:24] <troy_s> do what you find...
[09:24] <troy_s> my only thought is that it needs to be
[09:24] <troy_s> clear
[09:24] <troy_s> concise
[09:24] <troy_s> and not laden with unessaries
[09:24] <troy_s> etc
[09:26] <Who_> I was talking about the page in your _specific_ work in prgress area :)
[09:27] <Who_> I'll keep to the point - no python vs mono chat - I promise
[09:33] <troy_s> you are a ROCKSTAR bersace!
[09:33] <troy_s> lovely work
[09:33] <bersace> wait a minute
[09:34] <bersace> now
[09:34] <troy_s> awsome
[09:34] <troy_s> now
[09:34] <troy_s> i noticed on your links
[09:34] <bersace> do you want more icons ?
[09:34] <troy_s> in your bug report
[09:34] <troy_s> (yeah icons would rock)
[09:34] <troy_s> that you did a window snip sample
[09:35] <troy_s> with a nice dropshadow and such
[09:35] <troy_s> that would work lovely for an interface sample
[09:35] <troy_s> a menu
[09:35] <troy_s> a button
[09:35] <troy_s> a window
[09:35] <bersace> you mean Interface Sample ?
[09:35] <troy_s> yah
[09:35] <bersace> oki
[09:35] <troy_s> we need to show what the windows look like
[09:35] <troy_s> the buttons
[09:35] <troy_s> etc.
[09:35] <troy_s> how the thing comes together
[09:35] <troy_s> already you can see that the tonal diffs are a problem between the gdm splash / gdm / wallpaper
[09:36] <troy_s> i really like the gdm splash ...
[09:36] <troy_s> who did it?
[09:37] <troy_s> and where do we snag mich's usplash image?
[09:40] <bersace> gdm has no splash
[09:40] <bersace> it is gnome session splash
[09:41] <bersace> gdm has only greeter theme
[09:42] <troy_s> yah
[09:42] <troy_s> no...
[09:42] <troy_s> i mean the usplash
[09:42] <troy_s> that mich developed...
[09:42] <troy_s> the gnome session splash rocks
[09:43] <troy_s> i suppose i should change that label.
[09:43] <troy_s> you editing it et?
[09:43] <troy_s> if you are, can you change the label to the proper label?
[09:44] <troy_s> who did the gdm session greeter splash?
[09:44] <troy_s> its very well done
[09:44] <troy_s> slick
[09:45] <troy_s> is it franks?
[09:46] <troy_s> hey is jimmac around?
[09:54] <bersace> nop
[09:54] <bersace> he's just a gnome art guru that made hicolor, part of Tango, Gorilla, etc.
[09:54] <bersace> not an ubuntu Artist
[09:55] <bersace> i shot upslash
[10:12] <troy_s> ah
[10:12] <troy_s> awsome work on that wiki page ber
[10:12] <troy_s> yer a clever bugger
[10:14] <bersace> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content/DefaultUbuntu
[10:14] <troy_s> how the hell did you get the usplash?
[10:15] <troy_s> and i guess we need to find the credits for the metacity design etc?
[10:16] <troy_s> and where can we find a more comprehensive display of the icons?
[10:17] <bersace> usplash = qemu screenshot of dapper-live.iso
[10:17] <bersace> for icon
[10:17] <bersace> i use art.gnome.org screenshot util
[10:18] <bersace> if you want i may patch the util to shot more icons
[10:18] <bersace> do you ?
[10:18] <bersace> how many ?
[10:18] <troy_s> how many are there?
[10:18] <troy_s> what do you think?
[10:19] <troy_s> hard to say, although i like the idea of more.
[10:19] <bersace> what about 4x4 icons ?
[10:19] <troy_s> great idea
[10:19] <bersace> or 4x6
[10:19] <troy_s> are they all the same?
[10:19] <troy_s> maybe we should have some scalars
[10:19] <bersace> i think we just want to put preview
[10:19] <bersace> not show all the theme
[10:20] <bersace> what icons do we want to show ?
[10:20] <troy_s> ok
[10:20] <troy_s> well... i think maybe 25 icons is a little more of a cross section?
[10:20] <troy_s> 5x5?
[10:20] <troy_s> or is that too much?
[10:20] <bersace> hmm
[10:20] <bersace> i prefer wide preview
[10:21] <bersace> (4rowx6column)
[10:21] <bersace> i think that we should add shutdown icon
[10:21] <bersace> gnome-web icon
[10:22] <bersace> distributor icon
[10:22] <troy_s> that gives us a pretty good 'look' yeah?
[10:22] <bersace> one or two network icon
[10:23] <bersace> e.g. network-server and network-workgroup
[10:23] <bersace> folder remote
[10:23] <bersace> dialog-warning
[10:24] <bersace> back and next
[10:24] <bersace> ok ?
[10:24] <troy_s> as long as we keep it clean
[10:24] <troy_s> and not a sprawl i think it looks terrific
[10:25] <troy_s> and does it ever make referencing the 'look and feel' easier.
[10:25] <troy_s> how the hell are we going to get the rest for the other distributions?
[10:26] <bersace> what do you mean by "the rest for the other distributions ?"
[10:27] <troy_s> kubuntu
[10:27] <troy_s> etc
[10:27] <troy_s> there he is
[10:27] <troy_s> heyas mich
[10:27] <troy_s> how you doing?
[10:27] <msikma> Hi Troy! I'm doing just fine. Working out a user interface idea.
[10:28] <msikma> (Using my evil proprietary seal-club-ware.) ;)
[10:29] <troy_s> laf
[10:29] <troy_s> laf
[10:29] <troy_s> laf
[10:29] <troy_s> we'll fix you yet!
[10:29] <bersace> troy_s: kubuntu use qt
[10:29] <troy_s> check out what et has done on the default sample page
[10:29] <msikma> I hope so. I'd like to see what GIMP is really capable of.
[10:29] <troy_s> pretty slick.
[10:29] <bersace> that may be tricky
[10:29] <msikma> I know it's good, but not how it actually works.
[10:29] <bersace> how did Kubuntu lead there artwork for now ?
[10:29] <troy_s> ber -- exactly!
[10:29] <msikma> Default sample page?
[10:30] <troy_s> and we need to at least showcase where each one is
[10:30] <troy_s> and get whoever is working on it
[10:30] <troy_s> etc
[10:30] <troy_s> in with us
[10:30] <troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content
[10:30] <troy_s> try there sik
[10:30] <msikma> I really hope that Edgy will get us anti-aliased corners (in themes). I probably won't use rounded corners if that turns out to be impossible.
[10:31] <troy_s> corners for windows?
[10:31] <msikma> Yeah.
[10:31] <troy_s> well we will need to address that
[10:31] <troy_s> if we feel it improves it
[10:31] <troy_s> eventually, i will talk to mark and get pointmen for all the folks we need to chat with
[10:31] <msikma> Oh, definitely yeah.
[10:31] <msikma> Big yeah, actually. Aliased corners are awful.
[10:31] <troy_s> little bits of work
[10:31] <troy_s> help
[10:31] <msikma> Since they're so small, I bet that you could even render it with software.
[10:31] <troy_s> which is why folks all just need to step up and get the little bits of work done
[10:32] <troy_s> well yah.
[10:32] <troy_s> one would hope
[10:32] <troy_s> but perhaps it is a gnome issue
[10:32] <troy_s> needless to say, a dev in the proper area can answer that question very quickly.
[10:32] <msikma> I'll ask the devs about that. infinity seemed to know about it.
[10:32] <troy_s> great idea
[10:33] <troy_s> there is probably a lot of look and feel that can be accomplished with a simple bit of good communication
[10:33] <troy_s> wow... et that page is rocking
[10:33] <troy_s> finally i can 'see' what the whole package looks like.  it will help our discussions in the future...
[10:35] <troy_s> did frank do the gnome session splash
[10:35] <troy_s> that is one nice bit of work.
[10:35] <lapo> hi
[10:37] <troy_s> heyas lapo
[10:37] <troy_s> good to have you back
[10:37] <lapo> I use to hang here, it's nice to see the channel alive
[10:37] <Who_> when did it die?
[10:38] <troy_s> well i think a lot of people didn't know how to get onto irc.
[10:38] <troy_s> or at least, the folks who use the wiki etc.
[10:38] <lapo> usually this channel is silent
[10:38] <Who_> I'm not sure - I think that the artteam has ahd more to do lately
[10:38] <msikma> Has jimmac ever used the mailing list? He's been lurking in here for as long as I can remember.
[10:38] <Who_> yea, I noticed that
[10:38] <troy_s> well... et
[10:38] <troy_s> put it down
[10:38] <Who_> He made some comment about icons, as I remember
[10:38] <troy_s> put him down as the cursor folk
[10:39] <troy_s> i _really_ think the cursors are going to need targetting in edgy... but alas... getting ahead of self.
[10:39] <Who_> lapo - do you do work on Tangerine?
[10:39] <msikma> I like the cursors that have been in forever.
[10:39] <troy_s> does ANYONE know who did the session logon for gnome?
[10:39] <msikma> Neat things.
[10:39] <Who_> surely it was the guy who did the icons?
[10:39] <lapo> jimmac used some of his magic on tangerine icons
[10:40] <troy_s> msik:  me too... i would just like to see the gradated osx change to gradated ubuntu logo or something.
[10:40] <lapo> Who_: yes
[10:40] <msikma> Well, time to get some work done
[10:40] <Who_> real work?
[10:40] <msikma> The real kind.
[10:40] <lapo> Who_: tangerine is mostly my fault :-)
[10:40] <troy_s> sik
[10:40] <msikma> Yes?
[10:40] <troy_s> i put your sandbox under comments
[10:40] <Who_> lol, good call :)
[10:40] <troy_s> hope you don't get pissed
[10:40] <troy_s> laf.
[10:40] <msikma> Ah, yeah.
[10:40] <msikma> Nah, that's fine.
[10:40] <troy_s> great spot to put various bits and bites.
[10:40] <troy_s> great idea
[10:41] <msikma> I don't have a particular affection for my sandbox :P
[10:41] <troy_s> maybe i'll post pinux's cursors.
[10:41] <Who_> lapo: do you just use inkscape? cos when I made my folder icon variations I found it pretty slow... (Athlon XP 1900)
[10:42] <lapo> Who_: yes
[10:42] <lapo> Who_: when things are complex inkscape is not so fast
[10:42] <msikma> When things are complex, Illustrator is also not very fast. Especially when working with some of that 3D stuff.
[10:43] <Who_> lapo: I am hoping XaraLX will do the job - svg import and export are planned
[10:43] <troy_s> lapo you did the icon set?
[10:43] <Who_> Xara, for what I have used of it, is fast
[10:43] <lapo> troy_s: yep, with andreasn and other tango guys help
[10:43] <troy_s> can you assign proper credits on the default ubuntu thumbnail page please?
[10:43] <Who_> troy_s: you know this is Tangerine not Human?
[10:43] <lapo> Who_: dunno, I'm happy with inkscape
[10:43] <troy_s> grr.
[10:44] <troy_s> is there a listing for tangerine?
[10:44] <troy_s> somewhere?
[10:44] <Who_> what kind of growl is that?
[10:44] <troy_s> (read grr as in brain fart)
[10:44] <lapo> troy_s: I used to have a status image around, but I'm not updateing it latelly
[10:45] <troy_s> pretty solid work man...
[10:45] <lapo> I have this one, but it is old
[10:45] <lapo> http://xoomer.virgilio.it/bat/orango-tango/status.png
[10:45] <troy_s> its still on the artwork team page
[10:45] <troy_s> under content
[10:46] <msikma> By the way, since I made that usplash screen, will I get mentioned somewhere? Pretty much all the applications have a list of participants. That would be really neat (though I don't necessarily have to, of course).
[10:46] <troy_s> you are already in on the wiki
[10:47] <troy_s> which is why contacts are important so that we can chitter with the proper folks.
[10:47] <troy_s> anyone here use google talk or jabber?
[10:48] <troy_s> probalby not a bad idea to have everyone's contact.
[10:48] <troy_s> as though we were all in the same office
[10:48] <troy_s> hey lapo, have you done any wallpaper work?
[10:49] <lapo> troy_s: gnome backgrounds, with andreasn
[10:49] <Who_> talk later - I'm off
[10:50] <msikma> troy_s: I meant in the finished product.
[10:50] <msikma> Oh, you were talking to someone else.
[10:53] <troy_s> lapo, where is your work?
[10:53] <troy_s> we should start sandboxing some loose ideas
[10:54] <lapo> apt-get install gnome-backgrounds
[10:54] <troy_s> are yours labeled with author?
[10:54] <lapo> troy_s: I have no homepage
[10:54] <troy_s> you have a wiki page
[10:54] <troy_s> put them on there!
[10:54] <lapo> naah, I have no homepage because I'm a lazy ass :-)
[10:55] <troy_s> laf
[10:55] <troy_s> laf
[10:55] <troy_s> ok...
[10:55] <troy_s> family home.
[10:55] <troy_s> i'm idle boyz and girlz.
[10:55] <lapo> ciao
[11:26] <bersace> troy_s: done : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content/DefaultUbuntu
[11:26] <bersace> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content/DefaultUbuntu?action=show#head-13ac14add182c0c5198e7aed76ad01ea3c70f816
[11:27] <bersace> icons are columns sorted : 1) menu, 2) places, 3) mime, 4) devices, 5) action and 6) apps
[11:44] <bersace> troy_s: ok, i think that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content/DefaultUbuntu is finished
[11:49] <msikma> Nice.
[11:49] <msikma> I wonder who made that background.
[11:50] <bersace> thanks
[11:50] <bersace> and good night
[11:55] <msikma> Goodnight, I'm leaving.
[12:17] <troy_s> welcome andreas
[12:18] <troy_s> did you do the icons for human?
[12:19] <andreasn> nope
[12:19] <lapo> troy_s: human icons are done by a payed artist from iconfactory
[12:19] <andreasn> I did the tangerine set
[12:19] <lapo> payed by canonical
[12:19] <andreasn> and a bunch of the ones in tango-icon-theme-common
[12:19] <lapo> human icons are sort of closed development
[12:20] <andreasn> and only of good to ubuntu, not the broader community
[12:20] <lapo> uhm....well without the "sort of"
[12:23] <troy_s> wow
[12:23] <troy_s> didn't know that
[12:23] <troy_s> can someone identify that person and put them down as the contributor?
[12:23] <troy_s> or company
[12:23] <troy_s> or does iconfactory suffice?
[12:24] <andreasn> troy_s: what are you up to?
[12:24] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Content/DefaultUbuntu
[12:24] <troy_s> Trying to build a library of color and looks that is easily referenced when discussion requires.
[12:28] <andreasn> cool
[12:28] <troy_s> http://www.iconfactory.com/
[12:29] <troy_s> is that it?
[12:29] <troy_s> Etienne did some pretty good work collecting the bits.
[12:29] <troy_s> But I want to make sure that we target the correct contributors in the event that we decide on adjustments etc.
[12:34] <andreasn> hey Who_
[12:34] <Who_> hiya
[12:34] <troy_s> wb who
[12:35] <Who_> anything big/interesting happen in the last 3 hours - things seemed to be going fast wehn I left :)
[12:37] <Who_> andreasn: Thanks for the explanation of how you guys 'share the love' - I actually didn't realise that went on.
[12:40] <andreasn> no problem, sorry for the delay before answering it...I'm currently moving out of my apartment
[12:40] <Who_> and also, you may be interested to know: While loitering in #ubuntu-devel I noticed dholbach ask mdz for permission to upload a new ubuntu-artwork - which I guess would be our work.
[12:41] <Who_> I didn't hear the answer (about the themes)
[01:29] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TroySobotka/WorkInProgress
[01:29] <troy_s> feel free to comment folks.
[01:29] <troy_s> use footnotes
[01:29] <troy_s> so i can make changes as you all see fit.
[01:37] <andreasn> Who_: sorry, delayed with other stuff for a while there
[01:37] <andreasn> yeah, some of the stuff from the artwork-team is in there
[01:37] <andreasn> like the splash and stuff
[01:39] <troy_s> ?
[01:40] <andreasn> the community contributed icons are in tangerine-icon-theme and tango-icon-theme-common
[01:41] <andreasn> human icons are in the ubuntu-artwork package
[01:45] <Who_> sleep beckons
[01:45] <Who_> speak soon
[01:45] <lapo> andreasn: talking about tango, I have some 32x32 applet related tango icon theme icons
[01:45] <andreasn> for tango-icon-theme?
[01:46] <lapo> yep, the icons which goes in applet chooser
[01:46] <andreasn> I see
[01:46] <andreasn> tango-icon-theme-common
[01:46] <andreasn> then
[01:46] <andreasn> :)
[01:46] <lapo> nope tango icon theme this time
[01:46] <andreasn> oh?
[01:47] <lapo> show-desktop, exit session
[01:47] <andreasn> I see
[01:48] <andreasn> btw, will you be able to attend in paris?
[01:49] <lapo> uhm? when? what?
[01:49] <andreasn> the edgy planning event
[01:49] <lapo> would be cool, when it will be?
[01:49] <andreasn> I don't have any money, so I can't come :(
[01:50] <andreasn> the end of june
[01:50] <lapo> uhm...I kinda busy at work, I don't think I could attend the event :-/
[01:51] <lapo> for edgy I think we need to add some original stuff to tangerine, i.e drop some of the recolored stuff adding original icons
[01:52] <lapo> some of the recolored stuff is really bad
[01:52] <andreasn> absolutley
[01:52] <andreasn> we could adhere to some of the Human design
[01:52] <andreasn> but in tango-style
[01:53] <lapo> uhm
[01:53] <andreasn> metaphor and shape-wise
[01:53] <lapo> I think we should stop redoing human stuff tango style
[01:54] <lapo> human will remain human
[01:54] <andreasn> perhaps you are right
[01:54] <lapo> the scope of the tangoification was to convince mark to make his artist develop tango icons
[01:54] <lapo> which is falied :-/
[01:54] <andreasn> yeah
[01:55] <lapo> so let's do some funky stuff now
[01:55] <andreasn> yeah!
[01:55] <lapo> I'm sick of fixing thier stuff :-)
[01:55] <andreasn> heh
[01:56] <lapo> let's try to teach people what tango is developing a tango style theme which is not tango-icon-theme
[01:57] <andreasn> absolutley
[01:57] <andreasn> there seems to be a lot of confusion there
[01:57] <andreasn> and I don't blame them, our communication with the rest of the free software community is shit
[01:57] <lapo> yeah
[01:59] <lapo> we need original stuff, I love our folders, but perhaps something different should be nice
[01:59] <lapo> the trashbin have to go
[01:59] <andreasn> sure
[01:59] <andreasn> the yellow one?
[01:59] <andreasn> or the grey cylinder?
[01:59] <lapo> yep, we need a new design
[01:59] <lapo> both :-)
[01:59] <lapo> new navigation arrows
[02:00] <andreasn> I need to focus a bit on making nice application icons
[02:00] <lapo> 32x32 size
[02:01] <lapo> yep, that's needed as well
[02:01] <andreasn> I'm a bit tired of basic-theming for now
[02:01] <sivang> guys, is anybody working on some artwork for HUB?
[02:01] <andreasn> sivang: what is that?
[02:02] <sivang> HomeUserBackup
[02:03] <andreasn> only on paper right now
[02:03] <andreasn> but I belive I've chatted with you about that before
[02:03] <sivang> yes, I think so, just wans't sure about the person whom I chatted with :)
[02:03] <andreasn> it was probably me
[02:03] <andreasn> it's on my edgy-roadmap
[02:04] <andreasn> do you need anything else besides a application-icon?
[02:06] <sivang> Well, if you take a look at Sebastien Droge's UI, it currenty lacks on GFX what so ever, when you have free time it would be nice to see how we can make it more friendly looking
[02:06] <sivang> feel free to also suggest changes if you like
[02:06] <sivang> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HomeUserBackup/UI
[02:07] <andreasn> it looks nice
[02:08] <andreasn> although some icons are used wrongly in this image it seems
[02:08] <andreasn> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HomeUserBackup/UI?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=current.jpg
[02:09] <andreasn> like zoom-full for Verify Integrity
[02:09] <lapo> sivang: why the exit icon?
[02:10] <sivang> lapo: for quitting the program :)
[02:10] <sivang> andreasn: but this UI is going to be replaced by the new one
[02:10] <sivang> (the one windows one)
[02:10] <andreasn> I can probably fix better suiting icons for those buttons. As usual I am not certain buttons should have icons in them, but that is another matter ;)
[02:10] <lapo> sivang: there's the x on top of the window, I wouldn't use a button for that
[02:10] <sivang> lapo: right
[02:11] <sivang> lapo: care to open a bug report about that against it?
[02:11] <lapo> sorry, I'm really busy atm
[02:11] <andreasn> I'm off to bed... I'll get on the icon in about 2 weeks if it's ok
[02:12] <andreasn> night people!
[02:12] <lapo> it's too long already :-)
[02:12] <lapo> night
[02:13] <sivang> andreasn: sure thing
[02:13] <sivang> lapo: as well
[02:13] <sivang> thank you guys alot!
[02:13] <andreasn> np man
[02:13] <andreasn> hub looks like a really nice app
[02:13] <lapo> sivang: if the target of that backup application is the home user, I think some stuff needs to rewording
[02:13] <lapo> and or needs to be ditched
[02:14] <lapo> "verify integrity" for example
[02:14] <sivang> lapo: you're welcome to list it all as bugs, I know there is a lot more work to be done
[02:15] <sivang> lapo: better put on bug reports,
[02:15] <sivang> lapo: IRC gets lost eventually :)
[02:15] <andreasn> sivang: did you ask mpt for advice on it. That guy really know his way around interface design
[02:15] <andreasn> ?
[02:15] <lapo> btw looks cool, I'd love to have an option to backup configuration files
[02:16] <lapo> sivang: I'll file bugs eventually when finished with those fscking icons :-)
[02:16] <lapo> yeah mpt rules
[02:17] <sivang> andreasn: he proposed to original old UI
[02:17] <sivang> probably worth bugging him again
[02:17] <sivang> but he's very busy
[02:18] <andreasn> I see
[02:18] <andreasn> we should try cloning him
[02:18] <sivang> indeed :)
[02:18] <andreasn> well, that's it for tonight
[02:20] <sivang> night all
[05:24] <troy_s> who lives?
[05:32] <Madpilot> hmm?
[05:32] <Madpilot> it's Friday evening of a long week, I only count as semi-alive
[05:32] <Madpilot> ;)
[05:32] <troy_s> no kidding
[02:35] <lapo> hi
[02:38] <bersace> hi
[08:07] <troy_s> greetz
[08:08] <bersace> hi
[08:12] <troy_s> hey et
[08:12] <troy_s> sheesh... does billy do anything other than rant?
[08:14] <troy_s> wow a new software updates icon.  how cute.
[08:19] <bersace> that icon is still a label
[08:19] <bersace> like "ssh" or "ftp" label on remote directory
[08:19] <bersace> that's quite inconsistent with other icon such as logout
[08:25] <troy_s> got a link?
[08:27] <msikma> Hi :)
[08:28] <troy_s> heyas mich
[08:29] <msikma> Hmm... I can't remember- can anyone tell me if that one wallpaper with the levitating Gnu made it into Dapper?
[08:29] <troy_s> a bunch of artwork came down the pipe today
[08:29] <troy_s> you talking gnome-wallpapers add on?
[08:29] <msikma> No, the one we voted on. Well, I didn't vote for any of them.
[08:30] <msikma> *ones we voted on
[08:31] <msikma> Ah, it didn't.
[08:31] <msikma> Good thing, then.
[08:32] <msikma> I was just thinking about it the other day and realized that it probably wouldn't have been a good idea to include it. Not for artistic reasons, but for the reason that it depicted a meditating Gnu, which could be seen as improper usage of religion by some people.
[08:32] <troy_s> why are we bothering with crap that can all be snagged from gnome-look?
[08:32] <troy_s> seems like a large WASTE of effort.
[08:32] <troy_s> meditating gnu religion issue?
[08:33] <troy_s> who levitates?
[08:33] <msikma> Yeah.
[08:33] <msikma> Well, it's difficult to explain. I'll find that wallpaper.
[08:34] <msikma> http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/Ubuntu-Levitating_Ubuntu_Gnu_1280x1024.png
[08:35] <troy_s> ok here's a question based on that:
[08:35] <troy_s> who admins that CMS site?
[08:35] <msikma> I don't know. Isn't it just meant to be a repository for sharing artwork stuff rather than development?
[08:35] <troy_s> and launchpad needs more admins, where do we go to set this into motion?
[08:35] <troy_s> well...
[08:35] <troy_s> you can't submit
[08:35] <troy_s> you submit, someone must add it
[08:36] <troy_s> hence the CMS notion
[08:36] <troy_s> i tested it... it hasn't updated or even been looked at for at least a month
[08:36] <troy_s> hence i left it out of the restructuring of the wiki
[08:37] <troy_s> omma set up a great outline in terms of page structure
[08:37] <msikma> I think that Launchpad admins will be appointed based on who we choose as leaders during out meeting. Well, the tech-savvy ones out of the ones we would appoint.
[08:37] <troy_s> but the damn cms is elusive.
[08:37] <troy_s> i think there should be at least several
[08:37] <troy_s> so that when one is at work
[08:37] <troy_s> and a poll needs to be setup NO
[08:37] <troy_s> NOW
[08:37] <troy_s> it can happen
[08:37] <troy_s> but alas, that is all on the agenda page as per pascal's link
[08:37] <troy_s> mark suggested three...
[08:37] <troy_s> which is great
[08:38] <troy_s> of course we can't vote if we don't have access to the stupid polling feature/ calendar feature/ etc.
[08:38] <msikma> What about the appointing of an art "director"? I think we'll need to wait out a little longer before we do anything about that.
[08:38] <troy_s> and i sent mail to joel (the listed admin) but he didn't respond for a week or more
[08:38] <troy_s> so... it strikes me as broken
[08:38] <msikma> Maybe one of the external guys who's worked on the Human icons would be interested in something like that.
[08:38] <troy_s> ombudsmen.
[08:38] <troy_s> break the deadlocks if any should be arrived at...
[08:39] <msikma> Speaking of a calendar feature, do you think it could have an XML feed?
[08:39] <msikma> That would be sweet.
[08:39] <troy_s> i think it might... i would need to look into it.
[08:39] <troy_s> of course, i can't bloody do bugger all with it
[08:39] <troy_s> because its locked down
[08:39] <msikma> I use Google Calendar, and I can import The Fridge's calendar into it.
[08:39] <msikma> It then auto-updates when things are added to it.
[08:40] <troy_s> well launchpad has specifications
[08:40] <troy_s> which is great for our goals and arriving at them
[08:40] <troy_s> as with a calender
[08:40] <troy_s> and the rest of ubuntu uses it
[08:40] <troy_s> so we should
[08:40] <troy_s> that way we at least get synced with devf
[08:40] <msikma> Yeah.
[08:40] <troy_s> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
[08:40] <msikma> I think we'll figure this out yet.
[08:40] <troy_s> it can work GREAT for us
[08:41] <troy_s> needing an icon fix etc...
[08:41] <troy_s> bersace is pretty killer at knocking tasks off if he has a list, and i imagine others of us are good at that too.
[08:41] <troy_s> we need to access the team page though...
[08:41] <msikma> Definitely. So that's one more reason to get that meeting out of the way.
[08:41] <msikma> Do you think it would also work via the mailing list?
[08:41] <troy_s> i suppose we could theoretically launch another bloody team since that team page is um... NOT ACTIVE
[08:41] <troy_s> at all.
[08:42] <troy_s> absolutely
[08:42] <troy_s> the way i see it, we base all of our tools on NEED
[08:42] <msikma> I'm sure that it would probably work, but it's just that I've only done proper Internet meetings via IRC.
[08:42] <troy_s> 1) discourse -- mailing list, and irc for brainstorming when two or more people manage to get into the same room together
[08:42] <troy_s> hard with ubuntu sik
[08:42] <troy_s> time zones
[08:42] <troy_s> like pascal and i end up talking in at like 4 in the morning
[08:42] <troy_s> on jabber
[08:42] <msikma> Yeah, same thing with Ourmedia.
[08:42] <msikma> Ever been to that site?
[08:42] <troy_s> and it isn't terribly democratic
[08:43] <troy_s> if only a small number in xxx timezone make decsions
[08:43] <troy_s> and ultimately, decisions are for polls, which brings me to 2) polling/agenda/deadlines/calendar -- launchpad
[08:43] <troy_s> that gives us three items which strikes me as more than enough for now?
[08:43] <troy_s> mailinglist (yay)
[08:43] <troy_s> irc (great social)
[08:44] <troy_s> launchpad (broken sucking bad locked irresponsive)
[08:44] <troy_s> let me try something
[08:44] <Firebird8> omg
[08:44] <Firebird8> talknig
[08:44] <msikma> At Ourmedia.org, we had IRC meetings. We just had to cope with some of us chatting at either a very late our or in the middle of the day when he's supposed to be working.
[08:44] <msikma> *hour instead of our.
[08:45] <msikma> I used to be admin on it for a while but it just wasn't going anywhere. :( Still isn't.
[08:47] <troy_s> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-artwork
[08:48] <troy_s> interesting :)
[08:48] <troy_s> we will need to contact them and find out if we can sync
[08:48] <msikma> Woah
[08:48] <msikma> They already have one :P
[08:49] <msikma> I really like the new Edubuntu background.
[08:49] <msikma> Could be a little more polished, but a very neat concept.
[08:50] <msikma> I'm gonna stop working for a sec so I can see my under-21 national football team play.
[08:50] <msikma> See you around.
[09:04] <bersace> should we work with other artwork team ?
[09:04] <troy_s> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-artwork
[09:04] <troy_s> well considering i can't
[09:04] <troy_s> bloody
[09:04] <troy_s> get in touch with this well formed existing launchpad tem
[09:04] <troy_s> try that one
[09:04] <troy_s> bersace
[09:04] <troy_s> you will become an admin level as well... but it is moderated
[09:04] <troy_s> hopefully by all of us
[09:04] <troy_s> try it now
[09:06] <bersace> so there is two launchpad artwork team :)
[09:06] <bersace> I prefer ubuntu-artwork to ubuntu-art
[09:07] <bersace> you should rely it to ubuntu-art
[09:08] <troy_s> well
[09:08] <troy_s> i would if ANYONE cared
[09:08] <troy_s> but no one emails
[09:08] <troy_s> anyways
[09:08] <troy_s> yer on now et
[09:08] <troy_s> let's see what we can do
[09:09] <troy_s> if this is going to work
[09:09] <troy_s> several folks need to admin it.
[09:09] <troy_s> let me look now
[09:09] <troy_s> hey firebird
[09:09] <troy_s> you here?
[09:09] <troy_s> i see you applied for membership
[09:09] <bersace> yep
[09:09] <bersace> yop
[09:09] <troy_s> https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-artwork
[09:09] <troy_s> how did they get that little logo there?
[09:09] <troy_s> we need to get one up
[09:10] <bersace> What does JoelM do  ?
[09:10] <troy_s> good question
[09:10] <troy_s> try sending him email
[09:10] <troy_s> you are an admin now too et
[09:11] <troy_s> democratic no?
[09:11] <troy_s> now we need to get a few more folks there.
[09:11] <bersace> Chang emblem
[09:11] <bersace> :)
[09:11] <bersace> thanks
[09:14] <troy_s> nice
[09:14] <troy_s> now we get email updates@!!!!!
[09:14] <troy_s> how pretty is that!
[09:14] <troy_s> wow... how useful.
[09:19] <troy_s> ok added a few more folks that i could find
[09:19] <troy_s> going to try to add the rest of our folks who submitted via the mailing list
[09:24] <troy_s> it failed
[09:24] <troy_s> yer an admin, you can fix it.
[09:24] <troy_s> ok... enough admins to start.
[09:24] <troy_s> at least that relieves the bottleneck
[09:34] <bersace> done
[09:34] <bersace> https://launchpad.net/people/potentialspam
[09:34] <bersace> :)
[09:34] <bersace> troy_s: ping
[09:35] <troy_s> greetz brother
[09:35] <troy_s> the calendar is pretty cool.
[09:35] <troy_s> aw cute...
[09:36] <troy_s> now how did the edubuntu team get that big logo at the top>?
[09:36] <troy_s> http ref?
[09:38] <bersace> i'm doing a similar
[09:42] <troy_s> nice work ber.
[09:54] <bersace> troy_s: why who isn't admin ?
[09:54] <bersace> why so much admin people ?
[09:54] <bersace> who is in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/People
[09:54] <troy_s> we need many admins
[09:55] <troy_s> to make polls/calendar and such get worked out.
[09:56] <bersace> you're right
[09:56] <bersace> but where is the limit ?
[09:56] <bersace> :)
[09:57] <bersace> we should have done this before the poll :)
[10:02] <bersace> troy_s: done ! https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-artwork
[11:26] <Lauren1> Anybody?
[11:29] <Lauren1> Test


  A quick google suggests nobody has jailbroken these yet.  Anybody here heard any diferent?
[01:51] <twb> Oh look, the menus give you a root shell
[01:57] <twb> OK, so its existing image is booting off mtdblock, and it's got a 2.6.37-atlas uImage in /boot
[01:57] <twb> That means it's using u-boot as the bootloader, right?
[02:00] <infinity> twb: Seems plausible.
[02:00] <twb> I can see the mtdblockN's but I don't know where I'd find the uboot config file (if there is one)
[02:03] <infinity> twb: Well, there could be an external config file on the same partition at the u-boot binary, if it's loading in the "first FAT partition" mode, or it could be burned into firmware, and u-boot has no config file, cause you're expected to setenv/saveenv from the u-boot prompt.
[02:03] <infinity> twb: The latter could prove problematic if there's no way to SEE a u-boot prompt.
[02:03]  * twb runs blkid on all the block devices he can dfind
[02:03] <twb> Apparently files.sotmarket.ru/instr/nettopy/hp/manual_hp_t410.pdf confirms that it's uboot
[02:07] <twb> Can only see a ext3 filesystem and a filesystem.sq inside it
[02:07] <twb> And yeah, when you boot it up, the screen doesn't appear to turn on until X starts
[02:07] <twb> (It's a single plastic box with an LCD and an arm computer inside; I haven't taken the housing off yet, so I dunno if there-
[02:08] <twb> aha, mtdblock5 is a uboot/ppcboot
[02:10] <twb> no sign of a fat with uboot config file yet
[02:32] <twb> Sweet, found the uboot config tools -- they are fw_* not u*[bB]oot* which is why I didn't spot them
[10:20] <darkfader> hi... did anyone find out news about the gps in the nexus7?
[14:31] <zorky> hey. anyone here who can help me. i just got my  raspberry pi 512mb, and i need to get an os on the sd card. how do i do that? do i need a sd card reader or can i plug the raspberry in the computer with an usb cable?
[14:42] <mosasaur> 512 mb is maybe a bit small for a modern os
[14:44] <zorky> it's the model 2 with 512mb ram.. do i really need a sd card reader to install the os with? or can i connect it to the computer?
[14:56] <infinity> zorky: Ubuntu can't run on the Pi, so this is likely the wrong channel to be asking in.
[14:56] <infinity> zorky: http://www.raspbian.org/
[14:57] <infinity> zorky: The answer to your question, however, is that if the Pi doesn't currently have an OS, there's no way to use it to read/write an SD card, so you'd need to do so an another machine, yes.
[14:57] <infinity> s/do so an/do so on/
[15:05] <Rjs> memory requirements depend entirely on what you're doing with it - 512Mb is plenty for many uses, including some graphical ones (e.g., my current desktop system uses 123 Mb right now, and an embedded PC I use as a digi-tv recorder uses 42 Mb, and I haven't done anything special to lower the memory use)
[15:06] <Rjs> but (as far as I've gathered) Ubuntu doesn't particularly target low-memory systems or use cases, so that may be another reason why this is the wrong channel :)
[16:02] <infinity> Rjs: Memory has nothing to do with it, the Pi is armv6, and Ubuntu literally *can't* run on it.
[16:03] <ogra_> infinity, do you have any idea whom i should ping about dropping panda desktop images ?
[16:03]  * ogra_ is rwally not sure who can make such a decision
[16:04] <ogra_> *really
[16:04] <ogra_> but it doesnt look like we'll have pvr support in the long term
[16:04] <ogra_> even mid term
[16:25] <infinity> ogra_: I'm happy to take that decision, and any fallout from it.
[16:26] <infinity> ogra_: Technically, Jason Warner "owns" the product, but I doubt he has an opinion.  You can ask to be nice, though.
[16:26] <ogra_> ok, will do
[18:06] <xnox> ogra_: if you drop panda desktop, I'm shipping my panda to become a buildd, as nexus7 fully furfills my armhf needs. And panda here was a server / ubiquity-desktop testbed.
[18:07] <xnox> (server as in always on buildd, but I can totally fiddle with charging nexus7 in a more timely fashion)
[18:07] <xnox> (or whatever is the best use of an extra pandaboard - live builder / qa test machine / etc)
[18:08] <ogra_> yeah, well, if you want to do native builds an USB disk on a panda is definitely way better than building on the MMC of the nexus


[17:09] <Mikaela> !ops tigralove is a bot, announced at ##botmonitoring-notices ( see ##botmonitoring ) and doesn't reply to CTCP.
[17:09] <Mikaela> I wanted ops, not to edit a factoid...


[00:17] <Glorfindel> any likelyhood of issue if I close all user-initiated programs and then upgrade on ubuntu server 16.04?
[00:17] <Glorfindel> it should just come back up and I'd be able to ssh back in, right?
[00:23] <sarnold> it's always nice to have a way to a console if the machine's a few thousand miles away...
[00:25] <leftyfb> If it's a server, it usually has some sort of OOB access (ipmi,idrac,ilo,AMT)
[00:25] <Glorfindel> I guess worst case I reinstall it from scratch and import my backups
[00:25] <Glorfindel> leftyfb: I'm not familiar with that, what does it do?
[00:26] <leftyfb> Glorfindel: what type/model of server?
[00:26] <Glorfindel> 1and1 vps
[00:26] <Glorfindel> the non dedicated one
[00:26] <leftyfb> ok, contact them for support then
[00:27] <sarnold> hmm... lots of possibilities there
[00:27] <sarnold> it might be an openvz container on a system
[00:27] <sarnold> it might be a vm
[00:27] <sarnold> you may or may not have an eas yway to get t oa console through a web interface or something similar
[00:31] <Glorfindel> they have a kvm console
[00:31] <snowgoggles> Glorfindel: something doesn't smell right if you don't have low level management of your vps and you are attempting to upgrade the vps. is this a PaaS?
[00:31] <sarnold> eh, even amazon doesn't have consoles on ec2
[00:32] <sarnold> I'm not saying that's great, but it's not necessarily horrible
[00:32] <Glorfindel> snowgoggles: I can also upgrade to 18.04 via their install disk, but that means copying everything back again afterwards
[00:33] <Glorfindel> I was hoping to just upgrade and keep all my files and programs
[00:33] <snowgoggles> Glorfindel: what service is this?
[00:34] <sarnold> Glorfindel: should be fine. it usually is..
[00:34] <Glorfindel> 1and1
[00:34] <sarnold> juts be sure to have a plan in case things don't go to plan
[00:34] <Glorfindel> 1and1.com rather
[00:34] <sarnold> heh
[00:35] <Glorfindel> I believe it's IaaS
[00:38] <snowgoggles> Glorfindel: site says all vps have console access so i don't see an issue unless it's false advertising
[00:43] <Glorfindel> ok, I'll give it a shot sometime here then
[00:43] <Glorfindel> I think I'll try getting a backup first
[00:48] <sarnold> always a good idea :)
[05:54] <cpaelzer> good morning
[05:59] <lotuspsychje> good morning cpaelzer
[07:35] <lordievader> Good morning
[08:38] <Klendazu> Hello everyone, i have ubuntu 10.04 lucid version, i want to upgrade the php version to 5.6 but in the ondrej ppa repository there is no lucid version, can anyone can help me to upgrade the php version ??
[08:48] <Klendazu> No one can help me ? or tell me where i can find information to install or upgrade php 5.6 into lucid 10.04 version ??
[08:49] <lordievader> Klendazu: 10.04 is EOL for a couple of years.
[08:49] <Klendazu> i know, but i have an iscp version on it
[08:49] <lordievader> Upgrading to a more recent Ubuntu version will give you a newer PHP version automatically.
[08:49] <Klendazu> to upgrade this server is so complicate
[08:49] <Klendazu> the only thing to do is upgrade to 5.6 the php
[08:50] <lordievader> Running EOL software is a security risk.
[08:50] <Klendazu> I know
[11:03] <ahasenack> good morning
[11:34] <lordievader> <freenode_aha "good morning"> Hey ahasenack
[13:02] <ahasenack> hi there lordcirth
[13:02] <ahasenack> er
[13:02] <ahasenack> lordievader:
[13:02] <ahasenack> that one :)
[13:02] <lordievader> 👋
[13:02] <lordievader> How are you doing?
[13:23] <ahasenack> lordievader: good, thanks, and you?
[13:35] <rbasak> ahasenack, kstenerud: I marked bug 1810827 as Triaged/High and added to our backlog. Any reason I shouldn't have done that?
[13:35] <rbasak> Given that we have steps to reproduce etc.
[13:35] <rbasak> I should have asked before making changes, sorry.
[13:36] <ahasenack> that's fine, but there is no patch yet
[13:36] <rbasak> I see
[13:37] <rbasak> I added a bug watch for the upstream project.
[13:37] <rbasak> I think that means it'll hit our triage queue again when the upstream bug gets resolved.
[13:37] <ahasenack> good
[13:37] <rbasak> Thank you for finding the upstream bug etc!
[13:39] <rbasak> ahasenack: triage process question on bug 570944. I think it can be marked Fix Released again. Were you expecting that to be done by the next triager?
[13:40] <rbasak> I ask because it was marked '+' in the triage tool (as expected)
[13:40] <ahasenack> rbasak: oh, I thought mathieu had done it
[13:40] <rbasak> np
[13:40] <rbasak> Not a process question then, thanks :)
[13:40] <ahasenack> rbasak: yep, +1 for fix released again
[13:40] <rbasak> Done
[16:11] <rbasak> cpaelzer_: I had grabbed https://code.launchpad.net/~kstenerud/ubuntu/+source/logwatch/+git/logwatch/+merge/361551 to review
[16:11] <rbasak> Have we collided?
[16:15] <cpaelzer_> rbasak: you grabbed yesterday
[16:15] <cpaelzer_> I added mine as I had a few spare minutes
[16:59] <Slashman> hello, I'm trying to install ubutun 18.04 on a new server, this server has UEFI, doing the manual filesystem setup, I cannot create a partition for EUFI boot... is there a way to get back the old installer somehow to do that?
[17:01] <Slashman> or is there a way to create the uefi partition with the new installer?
[17:01] <ahasenack> Slashman: the installer should take care of creating that partition
[17:01] <ahasenack> I think it calls it "ESP" iirc, just don't worry about it and it should work
[17:01] <ahasenack> that being said, the old installer is still available if you want
[17:02] <Slashman> ahasenack: ok, I'll try to set it up without configuring the ESP, how can I start the old installer?
[17:02] <ahasenack> Slashman: the old installer is another image, let me fetch the link
[17:04] <Slashman> ahasenack: the /boot/efi partition is created after you create a first partition
[17:04] <ahasenack> Slashman: I think it's this one: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/18.04.1/release/ubuntu-18.04.1-server-amd64.iso
[17:04] <ahasenack> it doesn't have the "live" word in it
[17:06] <Slashman> "/boot must be on a partition on a local disk" when trying to create it on a lv, sad...
[17:11] <TJ-> Slashman: did the installer start in UEFI mode, and is the disk label GPT ?
[17:11] <Slashman> TJ-: yeah, everything worked fine, except the installer doesn't allow /boot on a lv, so I'm starting the old installer image
[17:12] <TJ-> Slashman: that'll be subiquity I presume?
[17:12] <Slashman> is subiquity the name of the new installer,
[17:12] <Slashman> ?
[17:12] <TJ-> Slashman: Yes
[17:13] <Slashman> TJ-: yes then
[17:13] <TJ-> Slashman: I think it stands for 'server' ubiquity (the latter is the name of the desktop installer)
[17:14] <Slashman> ahasenack: thank you for the link, that's the correct image indeed
[17:14] <TJ-> Slashman: I don't use the installers so not touched that, but I do hear a lot of issues since it doesn't have feature-parity with the original debian-installer approach
[17:16] <Slashman> TJ-: well, I found at least one missing feature here ^^
[17:18] <TJ-> Slashman: I prefer using my own scripts and debootstrap
[17:20] <Slashman> TJ-: I would love to, it's just a question of time
[17:21] <TJ-> Slashman: I know :) I'm typicall deploying LUKS + RAID + LVM so it is worth it
[17:23] <Slashman> I may just clone the system disk (which is on hardware raid) when I'll have to install a lot of systems
[17:28] <siwica> I am trying to setup a bridge br0 with an ip address using netplan. Can anybody give me a hint why ifconfig does not show an ip for bro with the following config? https://pastebin.com/SWfZEJJ8
[17:33] <lordcirth> siwica, I gave up on getting netplan to work properly with bridges. I write configs in /etc/systemd/network instead. It's not even harder.
[17:34] <TJ-> siwica: firstly check if a systemd network definition has been generated for the bridge in /run/systemd/network/
[17:35] <TJ-> siwica: if so, then usr journalctl to check for problems with it
[17:37] <siwica> TJ-: The systemd network definition looks ok
[17:37] <siwica> Also I can see the bridge interface running ifconfig. Just its IP is missing.
[17:39] <siwica> The content is the following: https://pastebin.com/gipdEC69
[17:39] <siwica> Nothing to see with journalctl it seems
[17:40] <siwica> lordcirth: If nothing else works, I will revert to doing this. Just thought I should probably adhere to the new way of doing things.
[17:41] <Slashman> I agree with lordcirth, I'm not a fan of adding an other layer on top of systemd-networkd
[17:41] <Slashman> siwica: new ubuntu way, I'm not sure if any other distribution are using netplan.io by default
[17:41] <lordcirth> netplan is from Debian
[17:42] <Slashman> lordcirth: oh, I though it was from canonical, is this planed to be in debian 10?
[17:42] <cyphermox> it is from Canonical
[17:43] <Slashman> I still don't like this additional layer anyway
[17:43] <cyphermox> it's recently been added to Debian
[17:43] <cyphermox> siwica: you'll need to look at what networkctl says. sometimes the issue has to do with how the network interfaces are identified
[17:44] <lordcirth> cyphermox, oh, thanks
[17:44] <TJ-> siwica: if there's a systemd.network config for the bridge then the issue isn't netplan, unless it is generating an incorrect config. Is the physical interface slaved to the bridge up and active?
[17:45] <siwica> TJ-: The physical interface is up but not running. No network cable plugged in there as of now.
[17:45] <TJ-> siwica: Thought so. That's expected of systemd. We've seen a few people caught out by this. Address not assigned until at least one slave interface is active
[17:46] <siwica> So if I plugin a cable the address should be shown?
[17:46] <siwica> I'll try this out after dinner :)
[17:47] <TJ-> siwica: Yes; you're not the first to be stumped by this !
[17:47] <siwica> TJ-: Ok, thanks a lot. This cost me a couple hours unfortunately.
[17:49] <TJ-> siwica: yeah, despite it not being netplan.io's fault it ought to be documented behaviour
[17:49] <cyphermox> siwica: what version of netplan?
[17:50] <siwica> cyphermox: 1.10.1-5build1
[17:51] <siwica> (Not sure if this is the version of the Debian package of the upstream version number)
[17:51] <siwica> *or
[17:51] <siwica> TJ-: Yeah, this would help.
[17:53] <siwica> In any case I don't really understand the trend of encoding everything in YAML files nowadas at any cost.
[17:54] <lordcirth> I have no problem with YAML - I use Saltstack all day. Netplan just doesn't *do* anything
[17:54] <lordcirth> It takes your input, introduces subtle problems, then exports exactly the same data to networkd
[17:54] <siwica> But lets you write YAML :D
[17:55] <siwica> Maybe that's enough of an advantage to some people
[17:55] <lordcirth> I write my networkd files with Salt, which is YAML! :P
[17:55] <lordcirth> I can generate bridges and vlan ifaces from a list of vlan ids.  It's great.
[17:56] <siwica> I might check it out at some later point when I am not having time pressure
[17:59] <TJ-> siwica: the drive, I think, was to have a single config work for multiple network management tools, hence the 'renderers' in netplan.
[18:38] <cyphermox> siwica: that's very very bad as a version number
[18:39] <cyphermox> siwica: you may have installed "netplan" instead of "netplan.io"; there's a calendar package with a similar name, so it's a relatively common issue
[18:40] <cyphermox> should be something like 0.36.2 or bigger, but still starting with 0.something.


[00:13] <bdrung> kklimonda: but i can make it 4 % faster by using float instead of double
[00:13] <bdrung> :)
[02:10] <ari-tczew> bdrung: could you check wrap-and-sort on wallch package? Indeed, doesn't do anything.
[02:17] <slooksterpsv> Hi, I have a simple question, what does MOTU stand for or mean? (Acronym-wise)
[02:19] <Nafallo> Masters of the Universe
[02:20] <slooksterpsv> oh ok, thank you
[03:30] <ebroder> brung: worrying about a 1.3% performance overhead seems kind of silly to me
[03:30] <ebroder> at the very least, i'd make sure that things blow up if you don't call kibi_init, instead of working but being wrong
[03:31] <ebroder> there's a lot of value to failing spectacularly when things are used out of spec
[03:31] <ebroder> otherwise people won't notice they're doing something wrong
[03:34] <s1aden> reliable >= faster
[05:11] <lifeless> sladen: its not always that simple :)
[13:05] <ari-tczew> randomaction: nice to see you again involved!
[13:06] <randomaction> hello
[13:06] <randomaction> finally got some time for Ubuntu
[13:06] <ari-tczew> :)
[14:34] <bdrung> ari-tczew: running wrap-and-sort a second time doesn't change anything. wrap-and-sort worked as expected (read the man page).
[14:36] <bdrung> ebroder: it's significant faster than the  glib function. i can live with the performance overhead. kibi_init is gone. :)
[14:36] <ari-tczew> bdrung: I still don't understand.
[14:38] <bdrung> ari-tczew: wrap-and-sort is idempontent
[14:38] <bdrung> :)
[14:40] <ari-tczew> bdrung: and your script never change this package?
[14:40] <bdrung> ari-tczew: it did. run "wrap-and-sort -v" to see which files are touched
[14:41] <bdrung> ari-tczew: you should read the man page. quote: "By default the lists will only split into multiple lines  if  the  entries are longer than 80 characters."
[14:42] <ari-tczew> bdrung: why only longer than 80 chars?
[14:47] <sebner> bdrung: is requestsync b0rken atm? http://pastebin.com/kwHxEEXf
[14:51] <tumbleweed> sebner: that looks like a gpg configuration issue?
[14:51] <tumbleweed> sebner: also, --lp :)
[14:51] <sebner> ah true
[14:52] <sebner> tumbleweed: worked, thx :)
[14:55] <bdrung> ari-tczew: 80 chars are a common line maximum
[14:56] <bdrung> sebner: file a bug. it shouldn't give you an assertion error
[14:56] <ari-tczew> bdrung: IMO there should be an option to wrap anyway, even if it's less than 80 chars
[14:56] <sebner> bdrung: aye aye
[14:56] <bdrung> ari-tczew: there is. read the man page!
[14:57] <bdrung> ari-tczew: but the default is what i prefer :P
[14:57] <ari-tczew> bdrung: I did it, don't yell. I'm blind.
[14:57] <ari-tczew> -a, --wrap-always     wrap lists even if they fit into one 80 character long
[14:58] <bdrung> *applaus* you found it
[14:58] <ari-tczew> bdrung: why default is 80? IMO
[14:58] <ari-tczew> always should wrap
[14:58] <tumbleweed> ari-tczew: because that's a sensible length limit
[14:58] <tumbleweed> ari-tczew: it's a matter of personal preference
[14:58] <tumbleweed> ari-tczew: I added the -s option because I don't like the wrapping bdrung does :)
[14:59] <ari-tczew> tumbleweed: aha. I like the case as bdrung does. :P
[14:59] <bdrung> ari-tczew: e.g. http://richarddingwall.name/2008/05/31/is-the-80-character-line-limit-still-relevant/
[15:02]  * ari-tczew has noticed that day is visibly longer!