[00:59] <mwhudson> hello
[01:00] <bac> #startmeeting
[01:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 19:00. The chair is bac.
[01:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[01:00] <bac> hi guys
[01:00]  * rockstar
[01:01]  * StevenK waves
[01:02]  * wallyworld__ waves back
[01:03] <bac> [topic] outstanding action
[01:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  outstanding action
[01:03] <bac> [topic] Sinzui to investigate making lint check for the Storm 'in' gotcha
[01:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Sinzui to investigate making lint check for the Storm 'in' gotcha
[01:04] <bac> last week we talked about using the Python 'in' operator with Storm and how it is Bad.  sinzui reports pretty good progress on changing lint to sniff these occurrences out.  yay.
[01:04] <bac> [topic] HenningE to add a note to the PSG about the use of any
[01:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  HenningE to add a note to the PSG about the use of any
[01:04] <bac> 'any' and 'all
[01:04] <bac> actually.  henning wasn't at the meeting so we don't know if he got around to it
[01:05] <bac> [topic] Mentat update.
[01:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Mentat update.
[01:05] <bac> stevenk, how is the mentoring process going?
[01:05] <StevenK> Quite slowly, sadly. thumper was on holidays and I forgot I was OCR, so that didn't help/
[01:06] <bac> StevenK: what is your day?
[01:06] <StevenK> Wednesday AsiaPac
[01:07] <bac> ok.  i'll try to throw my next branch at you.
[01:07] <StevenK> Sounds good. :-)
[01:07] <bac> StevenK: when you have spare time you can always pull branches off +activereviews
[01:08] <StevenK> It's the spare time of that sentence that's getting me too.
[01:08] <bac> hi lifeless
[01:09] <bac> recall too that henning and salgado are UI review mentats.  please consider them first for your UI reviews.
[01:09] <bac> and also note we lose noodles as a UI reviewer as he moves to ISD
[01:10] <wallyworld__> does that mean we should explicitly specify those guys when requesting a review instead of leaving it up for grabs?
[01:10] <bac> wallyworld__: yes, that would be good if you do
[01:10] <lifeless> did I miss some context?
[01:10] <mwhudson> lifeless: mentored reviewer progress
[01:11] <lifeless> so bottlenecking on two folk makes me wary
[01:11] <lifeless> could we just say that 'all nonUI reviewers are UI review mentees'
[01:12] <lifeless> and then if you happen to have a mentee on a branch with UI stuff that the mentee doesn't feel capable on, they can call in a mentor?
[01:12] <bac> well, if he were a mentee then by definition he'd have to call in a mentor to approve the branch
[01:13] <bac> rockstar what have we said about moving everyone towards being UI reviewers?
[01:13] <mwhudson> is bottlenecking on ui reviews a problem people are having?
[01:13] <mwhudson> as someone who touches the lp ui about once a year, i have no idea :-)
[01:13] <rockstar> bac, well, after chatting with sinzui, I think henninge can probably graduate.
[01:14] <rockstar> bac, I think I was pushing for everyone being a javascript reviewer first.
[01:14] <bac> rockstar and i think salgado must be close
[01:14] <lifeless> I will admit that I've just ignored needing/not needing a UI review; but I suspect I'm a special case in that regard
[01:14] <rockstar> bac, unfortunately, after my recent javascript work, I kinda want to go the other way now.  :)
[01:14] <rockstar> lifeless, how are you a special case?
[01:15] <lifeless> rockstar: either I've never made a UI change that needed a UI reviewer (and I don't know what triggers that clause)
[01:16] <lifeless> rockstar: or noone has felt comfortable telling me they think a branch will need one
[01:16] <rockstar> lifeless, usually, your reviewer should tell you.
[01:16] <lifeless> rockstar: or I've had a UI reviewer by chance when I've needed one
[01:17] <rockstar> bac, ideally, everyone is a everything reviewer.
[01:17] <lifeless> I think we should just work on that basis
[01:17] <rockstar> lifeless, unfortunately, I can't agree.
[01:17] <lifeless> and if someone's review isn't catching what we care about, we act on that and help them improve
[01:17] <lifeless> rockstar: why not?
[01:18] <rockstar> lifeless, I think (currently) most people's reviews aren't catching what we care about.
[01:18] <lifeless> rockstar: I agree. For /all/ review types.
[01:18] <rockstar> lifeless, at the Epic two years ago, we made a big push to start doing more javascript.  Unfortunately, most people are avoiding that.
[01:19] <wgrant> FWIW, I think reviews are at the moment fairly useless.
[01:19] <wgrant> They mostly seem to check stylistic issues, but rarely anything functional.
[01:19] <lifeless> last week we talked about what reviews should be doing; I'm working on a clear articulation of the issues I see there.
[01:20] <rockstar> wgrant, yeah, that's what lifeless' arch guide is about.
[01:20] <mwhudson> i find most of my review comments are insisting that comments are accurate and make sense
[01:20] <mwhudson> i think this is still valuable though
[01:20]  * rockstar has that in mind when he does reviews.
[01:20] <lifeless> rockstar: cool
[01:20] <lifeless> rockstar: so, I still don't understand your objection
[01:21] <mwhudson> we suck at js?
[01:21] <rockstar> mwhudson wins, methinks.
[01:21] <lifeless> if most reviews are not getting at things we care about, it seems like to be one of a few things:
[01:21] <bac> wgrant: do you feel the quality of reviews has gone down lately or have they always been superficial and mostly useless?
[01:21] <lifeless>  - insufficient training / depth of knowledge / breadth of knowledge
[01:22] <lifeless>  - fear of getting deep in
[01:22] <lifeless>  - insufficient time to do the review well
[01:22] <wgrant> bac: It hasn't changed lately.
[01:22] <lifeless>  - ???
[01:22] <lifeless>  - profit!
[01:22] <wgrant> But, well, I haven't been around long.
[01:23] <lifeless> bac: they weren't always superficial, but there were problems centred around having very large pieces of work arrive all at once with very poor internal structure
[01:24] <mwhudson> lifeless: harking back to last week, i think an issue is that for the things we care about now, review is too late
[01:24] <lifeless> the desired solution to that - smaller bits of work - has seemingly resulted in shallower reviews
[01:24] <bac> lifeless: i was about to raise that issue
[01:24] <lifeless> mwhudson: I don't think its too late per se.
[01:25] <mwhudson> lifeless: your way of putting it makes a lot of sense too
[01:25] <bac> smaller units of work mean it is harder to cohesively see the bigger effort
[01:25] <lifeless> mwhudson: but it sure is hard if the incoming branch has *lots* of room to improve :)
[01:25] <mwhudson> 8 small reviews do not, in some sense, make up a good review of the one large feature they all implement
[01:25] <lifeless> right
[01:25] <mwhudson> well hurrah, we all agree on this point :-)
[01:25] <lifeless> and I'm not about to suggest that we go back to the good^Wbad ol' days
[01:26] <mwhudson> it would be an interesting experiment: i wonder how much effort on general code quality the simple knowledge that you have to get your code through review has
[01:26] <wallyworld__> would a solution be to have a larger unit of work split into smaller chunks, but insist on the one reviewer all the way through to keep the bigger picture aspects in mind?
[01:26] <lifeless> effort? impact?
[01:26] <bac> of course the problem is made worse when the n reviews for the n smaller branches are spread over n reviewers
[01:26] <lifeless> mmm
[01:27] <mwhudson> maybe i should try to find a CS lecturer to do this experiment...
[01:27] <lifeless> so LP is small enough for one developer to whole a reasonable approximation of the entire system in their head.
[01:27] <lifeless> and we have dedicated periods for review when folk don't have to be simultaneously cutting new code.
[01:27] <StevenK> I think that's a fallacy
[01:28] <StevenK> I have trouble keeping all of the bits I care about in my head, so I don't see how anyone could keep track of the whole of Launchpad, even to a reasonable approximation -- we also move far too quick for that
[01:28] <lifeless> it may be false to say that all lp developers can do that.
[01:28] <lifeless> StevenK: we move glacially.
[01:29] <StevenK> As a whole, yes
[01:29] <StevenK> Certainly aspects are changing quicker
[01:29] <mwhudson> i think lp is a bit too big to hope for many people to understand how it all fits together
[01:29] <StevenK> s/ly//
[01:29] <lifeless> I'm going to take a second to put some thoughts together
[01:33] <lifeless> ok
[01:33] <lifeless> so here's the thing.
[01:33] <lifeless> either the system is so big that we can no longer tell whats in it.
[01:33] <lifeless> In which case I think we need a rule like drizzle had(has?) - no patch can make the codebase bigger. Smaller only. Fin.
[01:34] <lifeless> Or the system isn't that big.
[01:34] <mwhudson> hmm
[01:34] <lifeless> In which case I think its reasonable to ask that reviewers be getting the big picture, looking for things that should have been refactored, things that will scale poorly, etc.
[01:34] <mwhudson> partially baked thought, but
[01:35] <mwhudson> it's not really size that's the thing to worry about, but complexity, and in particular, close coupling
[01:35] <lifeless> mwhudson: inappropriate coupling for sure.... sometimes close is a benefit. Sometimes not ;)
[01:36] <lifeless> mwhudson: cohesion + close-coupling are two metrics I would grab offhand for talking about complexity.
[01:36] <bac> "inappropriate coupling" is new on the BBC, i think
[01:36] <mwhudson> lifeless: i guess -- i mean stuff like when code developer A reviews code developer B's code and then breaks translations
[01:37] <lifeless> mwhudson: yes, that sucks;
[01:37]  * lifeless puts some more coal the mwhudson thinking bbq
[01:37] <lifeless> s/the/ on the/
[01:38] <mwhudson> :)
[01:38] <mwhudson> as per usual in an unclear discussion, perhaps we need to ask "what is the problem here"
[01:39] <mwhudson> most reviews are perfunctory: not /really/ a problem
[01:39] <lifeless> mwhudson: its a problem
[01:39] <mwhudson> reviews are wasting developer time and reducing velocity: that's a problem
[01:39] <lifeless> that too
[01:39] <lifeless> (sorry, didn't mean to break your flow; fingers-up)
[01:40] <mwhudson> lifeless: or another way, perfunctory-ness is a problem, but it requires looking a layer in
[01:40] <mwhudson> i recall back in 2007 when it would sometimes take days to get your code reviewed; it's a lot better than that now
[01:41] <mwhudson> (unless you're jam :/)
[01:41] <lifeless> mwhudson: now it takes days to land it :)
[01:41] <mwhudson> yeah
[01:41] <mwhudson> that's certainly a problem
[01:41]  * mwhudson gets off the soapbox
[01:41] <lifeless> so I think reviews that miss crucial things like 'will blow out the query count for the home page' are a problem.
[01:42] <bac> mwhudson: the slowness to get reviews back then certainlly wasn't due to more thoroughness of the review
[01:42] <mwhudson> bac: no, it was due to idiotic processes :)
[01:42] <lifeless> and reviews that happily add a duplicate (nearly line for line) result set decorator likewise.
[01:42] <bac> right
[01:42] <lifeless> but we were talking UI and javascript
[01:43] <lifeless> we have formalise the idea of:
[01:43] <lifeless>  - code reviews
[01:43] <lifeless>  - db reviews
[01:43] <mwhudson> lifeless: for the latter, good code organization probably help
[01:43] <lifeless>  - ui reviews
[01:43] <mwhudson> s
[01:43] <lifeless>  - javascript reviews
[01:43] <lifeless> we have an idea of structural/architectural reviews which I've introduced as an element of code reviews.
[01:44] <lifeless> as you say, a review that slows velocity and doesn't add compensating value is a problem.
[01:44] <lifeless> are there other problems that folk would like to note, about reviews
[01:45] <lifeless> I'll take that as a no
[01:45] <lifeless> so for every *different* review type we require a change to go through we create a handoff
[01:45] <lifeless> we've recently shifted the 'qa review' (typically self-inflicted) from being arbitrarily close to release to being a pipeline stall for everyone, for instance.
[01:46] <lifeless> we've justified that by saying that the risk of a bad deployment outweighs the cost of having a stall
[01:47] <lifeless> on all our review types, we don't prevent all issues entering the codebase (note that I'm not saying we -should-)
[01:47] <lifeless> but if its a sliding scale (I think it is), why can't we get more folk involved in the reviews, training up the scale now ?
[01:48] <bac> what do you mean by getting more people involved?
[01:48] <lifeless> bac: Why can't stevenk, for instance, do a javascript review, and:
[01:49] <lifeless>  - if he feels out of depth, punt (but watch the review to learn)
[01:49] <bac> lifeless: that is exactly the process for JS
[01:49] <lifeless> is it the same process for UI? I was told here by you that it wasn't...
[01:49] <bac> it is not
[01:50] <lifeless> why isn't it?
[01:50] <bac> b/c historically UI changes were jealously guarded by our UI designer.
[01:51] <lifeless> do we have a UI designer now ?
[01:51] <bac> the review point was abused as the time for actually doing UI design
[01:51] <bac> lifeless: no, we do not
[01:51] <lifeless> then I think we should change this.
[01:52] <lifeless> if we were to make it the same as JS; what risks would we face? What benefits would we get? we probably need to think about the risks reasonably closely.
[01:52] <bac> we do have a small set of UI reviewers who are supposed to enforce not just a nicely designed UI for a given page but one that fits into the larger system
[01:52] <lifeless> are UI changes qualitatively meeting that goal?
[01:53] <lifeless> at a higher success rate per change than other sorts of changes in the system?
[01:53] <bac> unmeasured
[01:54] <lifeless> fwiw the feedback I hear is that the LP ui is confusing and strange
[01:54] <wallyworld__> should ui changes/additions go through an approval process by ui gatekeepers at the *design* stage? using balsamic etc?
[01:54] <mwhudson> it's probably better than it was though
[01:54] <lifeless> my personal and professional opinion is that UI is driven by the entire stack.
[01:54] <wallyworld__> +1 on the lp ui comment from lifeless
[01:54] <lifeless> trying to make it nice at the top end is a world of pain.
[01:54] <bac> wallyworld__:  i think that would be much better
[01:55] <bac> guys i hate to duck out on a great conversation, but we are over time and i have another commitment
[01:55] <lifeless> unless the defintion of UI is -extremely shallow-
[01:55] <lifeless> wallyworld__: I may misunderstand but isn't balsamiq just a mockup tool?
[01:56] <bac> feel free to stay and chat and i'll read the backlog
[01:56] <wallyworld__> yes, but it can be used as a tool to help communicate ui design etc for approval
[01:56] <lifeless> so this comes back to mwhudsons point about *when* we decide various things
[01:57] <lifeless> do we decide to have a composite or inheritance in review or 'preimpl' or 'as we go'
[01:57] <mars> wallyworld__, we set out, as a team, a process for using balsamiq for mockups - it's the easiest, fastest way to try and iterate upon and idea
[01:57] <wallyworld__> yes, review time is way too late for lots of things
[01:58] <lifeless> replace those terms with whatever ones make sense for e.g. db, javascript, language, etc etc
[01:58] <mars> wallyworld__, and we really like to do mockups before writing code - Michael Nelson and his work on the packaging UI is an exemplar of the technique
[01:58] <lifeless> wallyworld__: by way to late, do you mean 'it can feel very hard to change those things after doing some work on them'
[01:58] <wallyworld__> i think we are saying the same thing with balsamic
[01:59] <wallyworld__> the main point with mentioning balsamic is that i was trying to say we need to use various tools to communicate ui changes for approval *before* code is written
[01:59] <lifeless> I'd like a better definition of 'too late'
[01:59] <wallyworld__> "too late" = the cost of fixing issues becomes too great
[01:59] <lifeless> wallyworld__: I think thats a pessimisation and we can do better; it adds handoffs and roundtrips that are poorly justified.
[02:00]  * wallyworld__ thinks
[02:00] <wallyworld__> it's all a balancing act. handoffs are bad but so is trying to fix stuff too late in the process
[02:01] <lifeless> wallyworld__: I'm thinking -very- big picture here: approval meaning 'passes whatever criteria we as a team have decided on', and the topic being any of ui/js/python code/db/component choices/...
[02:01] <lifeless> What I'd like to see is, broadly:
[02:01] <lifeless>  - stop treating all changes as homogeneous (they aren't)
[02:02] <lifeless>  - the amount of approval needed should vary with the impact of a mistake
[02:02] <wallyworld__> i'd the the *timing* of approval should relate to the best place to identify and fix mistakes
[02:03] <lifeless> mmm
[02:03] <wallyworld__> i meant "i'd add..."
[02:03] <lifeless> that leads to the BDUF set of issues
[02:03] <lifeless> I'm entirely happy with the goal of having such discussions as needed to be move forward early
[02:04] <lifeless> but approving before its done is a great way to fail to adapt to changing needs
[02:04] <wallyworld__> doesn't have to mean BDUF....
[02:04] <mars> lifeless, "BDUF"?
[02:04] <lifeless> big design up front
[02:04] <mars> ah, of course
[02:05] <wallyworld__> we just need to be pragmatic and use our skills as experiences software engineers to do "what's right"
[02:05] <lifeless> wallyworld__: lets set a goal: 4 hours to concieve and deliver *into production* a change.
[02:05] <lifeless> wallyworld__: if you can fit preapprovals into that, I will happily tolerate them.
[02:05] <wallyworld__> surely that 4hr window depends on the scope of the change?
[02:06] <wallyworld__> and at the moment, that whole 4hrs would be consumed by the landing process :-(
[02:06] <lifeless> wallyworld__: if you don't break things up into small pieces yes. And that comes back to the scaling points I made above.
[02:06] <lifeless> wallyworld__: yes, but don't let currently problems drag you down :)
[02:07] <wallyworld__> ah, but to have the small pieces to implement, you often need to have the bigger picture all sorted so that it can be chunked up
[02:07] <wallyworld__> and you often need approval/review of the bigger picture design
[02:07] <wallyworld__> before it is to be split up into units of work
[02:08] <lifeless> wallyworld__: well, wearing my TA hat, I can say that I won't approve things at that level: I will discuss and collaborate, and reject things that are clearly problematic.
[02:09] <wallyworld__> well that's review rather than approval. so long as those biiger picture things are collaborative and have more than one set of eyes on them
[02:09] <lifeless> wallyworld__: but I'm not interested in saying 'this is definitely ok' for 2 months work - I think its a poor idea (and lots of literature on estimating work, and the overal XP/agile community agree AFAICT)
[02:09] <wallyworld__> +1. see my previous comment
[02:09] <wallyworld__> you just want to stop any obvious failings before they have a chance to go too far
[02:10] <lifeless> right
[02:10] <wallyworld__> and perhaps ask some pertinant "have you thought about this or that questions"
[02:10] <lifeless> I've said it before, I'd be delighted to see much more design traffic on the list.
[02:10] <wallyworld__> to minimise the chances of issues down the track
[02:10] <lifeless> designs seem to be happening largely in very private discussions and then we hit the 'its hard to change this now' complaint at review time
[02:11] <mwhudson> yeah, it can be hard to get a response to this
[02:11] <wallyworld__> i agree that's bad and we should encourage a culture where that doesn't happen
[02:11] <lifeless> mwhudson: 'this'?
[02:11] <wallyworld__> perhaps people are scared to make a mistake or look bad in front of the entire list?
[02:11] <mwhudson> lifeless: sorry, bad phrasing
[02:12] <wallyworld__> so it's easier for them to do design stuff in a smaller group?
[02:12] <lifeless> mwhudson: de nada, just couldn't bind it sensibly.
[02:12] <mwhudson> lifeless: basically, design proposals to launchpad-dev are often greeted with a deafening silence
[02:12] <lifeless> wallyworld__: look at what I do for instance; small stuff I JFDI, larger stuff I do a spike on / mail the list for discussion.
[02:12] <mwhudson> maybe we need an "on call design opinion" as well as on call review
[02:13] <wallyworld__> mwhudson: +1
[02:13] <lifeless> mwhudson: studies on group intelligence suggest that the dominating ability to be 'smart' as a group is getting everyones opinion.
[02:13] <lifeless> so -1 on on-call
[02:13] <mwhudson> for example, i was the only person to respond in depth to one of lifeless
[02:13] <mwhudson> ' design mails, and i'm not even on the team any more
[02:14] <mwhudson> lifeless: put it another way
[02:14] <lifeless> I think it would be great to use the OCR as a teddy bear, if thats what you meant
[02:14] <mwhudson> back in the lean training, i remember advocating the idea that doing reviews was at least as important as doing your 'own' work
[02:14] <mwhudson> argh, one more step back
[02:15] <lifeless> it would be interesting to have everyone read every commit.
[02:15] <mwhudson> hypothesis: people don't reply to design mail because they don't feel they have the time/energy to really dig into it and respond usefully
[02:15] <lifeless> for a week.
[02:15] <wallyworld__> mwhudson:  i'd like to provide more input but feel i need to learn the lp architecture a bit more first :-)
[02:15] <lifeless> wallyworld__: please do, don't hold back.
[02:16] <wallyworld__> be careful what you wish for :-D
[02:16] <mwhudson> proposed solution: promote a culture where replying to design mail is considered a really good way of spending your time
[02:17] <mars> mwhudson, did we not have the technical architecture group and [tech] (I think) mailing list tag for that?
[02:17] <mwhudson> hence my analogy to reviews -- similar problems were held up wrt getting reviews done back in 2007
[02:17] <wallyworld__> +1. atm i personally find it really hard to keep up with the volume of email and get my "core" work done
[02:17] <mwhudson> i.e. not enough time
[02:17] <lifeless> mars: the t-a-g is a design failure - it adds filtering to what should be a core dev responsibility
[02:17] <mwhudson> ocr + cultural changes helped there
[02:18] <mwhudson> on call design (ocd? :-p) may not be the thing here
[02:18] <lifeless> I think the dominating driving factor though is test suite time.
[02:18] <wgrant> mwhudson: Not enough time, or infrastructure issues (slow tests, third-time's-the-charm landing) making it ridiculously inefficient?
[02:18] <mwhudson> but cultural change possibly
[02:18] <lifeless> it more than anything else saps time and adds to the pressure to be *doing* not *talking*
[02:18] <mwhudson> wgrant: hey, a 4 hour test suite gives you _masses_ of time to reply to design mails :-p
[02:19] <wgrant> True, true.
[02:19] <lifeless> mwhudson: I agree that cultural change is needed too; see for instance flacostes thread recently.
[02:19] <mars> lifeless, I think one goal was to have a group of interested and capable experts from the LP team who could reply to design decisions.  The [tag] changed the social contract to be "must reply" for that group.
[02:19] <wallyworld__> mwhudson: not when something fails and you burn time looking into why and find out it's not your stuff after all :-(
[02:19] <mwhudson> lifeless: yes, making dev generally easier and smoother will help
[02:19] <mwhudson> wallyworld__: yeah, i wasn't being very serious there
[02:19] <lifeless> mars: I want input from the least experienced of our engineers as much as the most.
[02:19] <wallyworld__> i know, just being mischievious
[02:20] <lifeless> s/m.*$/aussie/
[02:20] <lifeless> :)
[02:20]  * wgrant stomps on lifeless.
[02:20] <mwhudson> i need to duck out now too
[02:20] <lifeless> me too; lunch calls
[02:20] <lifeless> I'd like to highlight one really important bit that this discussion clarified for me.
[02:20] <mars> lifeless, well, the group was to prevent the deafening silences mwhudson spoke of.  Anyone was free to opine in the thread
[02:21] <lifeless> 'its too hard at review time' really means 'engineers find changing things at review time hard'
[02:21] <StevenK> Personally, I don't find it hard.
[02:21] <StevenK> It just sucks to rewrite something you just wrote.
[02:21] <lifeless> pre-landing review is *entirely* capable of identifying ui glitches, js bugs, code structure issues, performance issues.
[02:21] <wallyworld__> i'd rephrase as "it's too hard to fix a bad design issue onces it's already been coded"
[02:21] <wgrant> it shouldn't happen at review time.
[02:22] <lifeless> wallyworld__: the bit I object too is 'too hard'
[02:22] <StevenK> And I should have brought this up at the meeting, but consistency!
[02:22] <wgrant> It probably just needs to be easier to grab someone mid-implementation.
[02:22] <StevenK> wgrant: Using *gasp* WIP MPs
[02:22] <lifeless> wallyworld__: its *not* too hard.
[02:22]  * StevenK glares at lifeless
[02:22] <lifeless> wallyworld__: its underdesirable that the *first time* an issue is encountered is *after a lot of work is done*
[02:22] <wgrant> StevenK: Well, bouncing to Julian introduces far more latency than would generally be ideal.
[02:22] <wallyworld__> lifeless: s/too hard/bad practice
[02:23] <lifeless> wallyworld__: but we have *two* concerns
[02:23] <lifeless> a) engineer efficiency
[02:23] <lifeless> b) gatekeeping
[02:23] <lifeless> actually
[02:24] <wallyworld__> agreed. and i think we could consider more gatekeeping earlier in the development cycle
[02:24] <lifeless> b) maintaining 'quality' of various aspects (code/perf/ui/schema/..)
[02:24] <mars> lifeless, bingo
[02:24] <lifeless> we can do many things to b:
[02:24] <mars> lifeless, you forgot scheduling and time pressure
[02:24] <lifeless> - split it up
[02:24] <mars> sometimes people don't have time to change how they did things (I've gotten hard pushback on reviews for that before :(
[02:24] <lifeless> - move it after landing in trunk
[02:24] <lifeless> - make it optional
[02:24] <mwhudson> for sure making development easier (faster more reliable pre-merge tests, daily rollouts) and reducing the cost of mistakes (feature flags!) will make everything else way better
[02:24] <lifeless> - move all or some of it earlier in the dev cycle
[02:25]  * mwhudson really disappears
[02:25] <lifeless> but in terms of deciding what to do; I want us to have a *clear* vision of 4 hour dev cycles: two dev cycles a day.
[02:25] <lifeless> Thats the LEAN inner loop.
[02:25] <lifeless> we shouldn't do tings to b) that will interfere with reaching a 4 hour cycle time.
[02:26] <wallyworld__> lifeless: for you that's 6 hours answering everyone's questions on irc and 2x 1hr dev cycles
[02:26] <lifeless> wallyworld__: its the price I pay for this amazing job
[02:26] <wgrant> But he's lifeless.
[02:26] <StevenK> Haha
[02:26] <wgrant> So that might even out.
[02:26] <mars> wallyworld__, he's from the SCRUM camp :)
[02:27] <wallyworld__> oh that explains a lot :-)
[02:27] <lifeless> mars: not really ;)
[02:27] <lifeless> mars: some of the scrum stuff is just nuts
[02:28] <lifeless> ok, fooding, thanks for the awesome discussion.
[02:28] <mars> lifeless, I meant in that you spend your time removing obstacles for other engineers so they can continue their work - the scrum master role
[02:28] <mars> later


[00:20] <Phruis> what is the point of having npm in the repos if you aren't suppose to install npm packages as root?
[00:21] <vlt> Phruis: To install them as non-root?
[00:21] <Phruis> vlt, then install the same package for every project?
[00:22] <vlt> Phruis: I’d say yes. Because something something encapsulation.
[00:24] <pragmaticenigma> Phruis: are you asking aobut the apt package repos?
[00:25] <Phruis> ya
[00:25] <Phruis> python has virtual environments
[00:28] <pragmaticenigma> Phruis: many pip packages for Python are also available through apt... The understanding that I have, is if the package is in the repo, it's been modified to work within the environment provided by Ubuntu. Though my experience with this is in Python, the python packages are typically ones for connecting to services like MySQL, and other similar servers, where the version provided by Ubuntu may be older than the one supported by
[00:28] <pragmaticenigma> the offering from pip
[00:30] <Phruis> ahh ya ... need like OS repos and user repos
[00:30] <pragmaticenigma> right
[01:07] <skinnymg1> is there a specific channel for WSL?
[01:08] <lotuspsychje> !ubuwin
[01:09] <skinnymg1> thanks
[01:10] <wad> I'm working on installing Ubuntu 18.04 64-bit on an HP Proliant DL360p that I just picked up. I installed it just fine on a 500GB hard drive, stuck in one of the bays. The install just finished, but it's acting very strange.
[01:10] <wad> I can't log in via the GUI. I CTRL-ALT-F2 and log in on the console, and that works.
[01:11] <tomreyn> the GUI? you installed on a server.
[01:11] <wad> The machine has an IP address on my LAN, I can ping it from another computer. But when I'm logged in, I can't see any network! Don't even have "ifconfig".
[01:11] <wad> Yeah, it's a server machine. I installed the desktop edition of Ubuntu.
[01:11] <tomreyn> ok, just... why?
[01:12] <wad> I'm going to set it up to be a minecraft server.
[01:12] <tds> ifconfig is old and deprecated, and you most likely won't have net-tools installed on a fresh box - does `ip a` get you what you want instead?
[01:12] <wad> Oh, cool!
[01:12] <wad> I'll try that.
[01:12] <wad> Nice, that works here. I'll try it on the server in a minute.
[01:13] <wad> So, you think I should install the server edition of Ubuntu on that pizzabox machine?
[01:13] <tomreyn> i could be wrong on this, but assume a minecraft server won't need a GUI.
[01:13] <wad> Naw, it won't need any GUI.
[01:13] <wad> I usually just run the server in a screen session.
[01:13] <tomreyn> then waste all your resource son java, not on  the gui
[01:13] <riskymanag3ment> My kids minecraft server doesn't use a GUI.
[01:14] <wad> In the past, I've installed server edition on machines intended to only be used as servers, and it didn't go well.
[01:14] <wad> I'll try it again, though, I guess.
[01:14] <riskymanag3ment> What problems did you have?
[01:15] <wad> It was a very long time ago. I memory.
[01:16] <wad> Okay, downloaded server image. Writing to USB stick. I'll be back in a bit, and let you know the result.
[01:16] <riskymanag3ment> good luck
[01:52] <wad> Okay, I tried the server. It fails on the network step.
[01:52] <wad> This machine has a regular ethernet port, which I have plugged into my LAN, which has been assigned an ip address by my DHCP server. But the OS can't see it for some reason.
[01:53] <lotuspsychje> wad: please dont use this channel to describe the steps you did, instead focus on actual support questions
[01:53] <wad> The OS does see two 10-GB ports, with nothing connected to them.
[01:53] <wad> Oh, sorry.
[01:53] <wad> So, does anyone have ideas for me? Why doesn't Ubuntu see my regular ethernet port?
[01:54] <wad> The two 10-GB ports don't take regular patch cables, seems like. They look like some other tech.
[01:54] <wad> I took screenshots of all the steps trying to install Ubuntu on it.
[02:00] <wad> Here's the error I'm getting: http://wadhome.org/~wad/files/pizza/20190916_195001.jpg
[02:02] <wad> Here's the installer failing to work with the two 10-GB ports, and not seeing the other one that's plugged in: http://wadhome.org/~wad/files/pizza/20190916_194741.jpg
[02:06] <leftyfb> wad: can you show what the ports look like?
[02:07] <leftyfb> I'm guessing it might be fiberchannel
[02:07] <tatertots> wad: are you sure you're not plugged into the iLo
[02:07] <leftyfb> copper fiberchannel that is
[02:07] <leftyfb> wad: also, try the regular ubuntu server installer, not the live installer
[02:09] <tatertots> wad: if you plugged your cable into an iLo and not the nics on a Proliant and didn't have the other nics connected. I would expect you to be in your current circumstance
[02:12] <tatertots> wad: lol you bought a used server without the 4x ethernet adapter
[02:13] <tatertots> wad: if you don't have the 4x adapter, you're actually plugged into the iLo and you don't have any nics
[02:14] <tatertots> wad: you can always purchase the 4x adapter if you need it
[02:15] <tatertots> wad: 331FLR adapter
[02:16] <tatertots> sucks if you bought that used server but the 331FLR adapter had been pulled prior to sale
[02:39] <WBILL> anyone have a recommendation for the best VPN to use
[02:39] <WBILL> ???
[02:41] <leftyfb> !ot | WBILL
[02:42] <kxsl> use for what?
[02:46] <WBILL> for obtaining an out of country IP
[02:46] <WBILL> im in USA most of the time
[02:47] <lotuspsychje> WBILL: join the proper channel(s) you ahve been suggested please
[03:27] <wad> Okay, guys, I got back, and scrolled back to see what I missed. Yep, I did indeed plug into the iLO port! I need an adaptor to a regular ethernat LAN. :)
[03:27] <wad> 331FLR will work? Doesn't look expensive.
[03:27] <wad> I don't need 4 ports, though, just one is fine.
[03:28] <tatertots> wad: yeah i kinda figured you did something like that
[03:29] <tatertots> wad: that HP has quad nics in it's default build configuration
[03:29] <tatertots> wad: quad 4x interfaces
[03:30] <tatertots> wad: you don't have to use all 4 at the same time if you don't want to
[03:31] <tatertots> wad: kinda sucks someone sold it to you without the network adapter
[03:35] <wad> It has the 2-port 10GB adapter.
[03:35] <wad> Not useful for me, though. :)
[03:36] <wad> I just spent $30 on amazon, for the quad-port 1GB one.
[03:38] <tatertots> wad: good man, i would have bought the original 4x quad nic also
[03:39] <wad> This is going to make a really epic minecraft server! :-D
[03:39] <tatertots> lol
[04:04] <dongbag> hi, i'm a little confused with /bin/sh - what exactly uses this? if I run a script from a terminal I start using ctrl+alt+t it's using bash
[04:04] <dongbag> I'm reading that "the system' uses dash under the hood
[04:05] <dongbag> but I'm still a bit confused
[04:06] <guiverc> dongbag, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DashAsBinSh
[04:06] <gebbione> i am getting error - libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.28' not found (required by filezilla) - but if i try to sudo apt-get install libc6 i get `libc6 is already the newest version (2.27-3ubuntu1)` :/
[04:07] <EoflaOE> gebbione: What Ubuntu version are you running?
[04:07] <gebbione> 18.04
[04:08] <guiverc> gebbione, 18.04 uses the package you mention, https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=all&searchon=names&keywords=libc6  the filezilla was probably intended for a later ubuntu release
[04:08] <guiverc> (2.28 is cosmic on url; 2.29 disco etc)
[04:08] <gebbione> even i try to compile filezilla from source i get all sorts of other errors :/
[04:09] <guiverc> gebbione, why don't you `sudo apt install filezilla` & use 3.28 available for bionic?
[04:10] <guiverc> https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=all&searchon=names&keywords=filezilla ^
[04:10] <gebbione> so how do i, & use 3.28 available for bionic?
[04:10] <guiverc> `sudo apt install filezilla`  which you've probably already tried; my guess is you've added non-bionic sources into your mix creating the issue
[04:11] <gebbione> well, possible ... i had upgraded ubuntu from 16 at the beginning of the month
[04:12] <gebbione> i disabled a bunch of xenial stuff but I have not added any other repositories
[04:13] <guiverc> 16.04 would have older sources, I suspect you have something non-Ubuntu that has packaging versions which conflict with official Ubuntu packages.   if you `apt-cache policy filezilla` does it come from a Ubuntu source?   (don't paste here except via pastebinit please)
[04:15] <gebbione> looks legit to me https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/wRg9cYKwRH/
[04:16] <gebbione> i just removed it
[04:16] <gebbione> so it is not installed but as you can see it is the bionic source in there
[04:17] <gebbione> so that wont fix it
[04:17] <tomreyn> depends on which version you had installed previously
[04:20] <gebbione> which version of what software? i had ubuntu 16.04 and moved to 18.04 . I was using my own compiled filezilla before and I am not also unable to compile from source
[04:21] <gebbione> so basically either from source or from the repo i am still stuck with a version that wont work
[04:22] <tomreyn> just make sure you remove any *filezilla* packages which don't belong to ubuntu 18.04, then install filezilla using apt. you should no longer get to see the "libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.28' not found (required by filezilla)" error message then.
[04:24] <papin> Hello. Is this thing on? I am using weechat
[04:24] <tomreyn> gebbione:    apt list --installed '*filezilla*'     should report this http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/HYf6hFnsmQ/
[04:24] <tomreyn> hi papin, we can read you.
[04:25] <gebbione> tomreyn, the list is empty
[04:26] <tomreyn> gebbione: install filezilla first
[04:27] <gebbione> tomreyn, i see the same list but keep getting the `GLIBC_2.28' not found error
[04:28] <papin> Is there a channel for kubuntu?
[04:28] <tomreyn> !alis | papin
[04:28] <tomreyn> !kubuntu | papin
[04:29] <papin> Thanks, never heard of alis before
[04:29] <tomreyn> gebbione: hmm, maybe your ubuntu indtallation is a bit of a frankenbuntu?
[04:30] <tomreyn> gebbione: please post the url returned by this:  nc termbin.com 9999 < <(lsb_release -ds;cat /proc/{version,cmdline};echo "Session: $XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP ($XDG_SESSION_TYPE)";echo Shell: $SHELL)
[04:30] <tomreyn> gebbione: and then this: sudo /bin/true && cat &>/tmp/aptlog < <(sudo apt-get -qqy update 2>&1; apt-cache policy 2>&1; sudo apt-get -syV full-upgrade 2>&1;); nc termbin.com 9999 </tmp/aptlog; rm /tmp/aptlog
[04:31] <tomreyn> these commands just gather information on your system state, do not make any changes to your system.
[04:32] <gebbione> https://termbin.com/6rsk https://termbin.com/5t73
[04:33] <gebbione> interesting i see those packages might need upgrading?
[04:34] <gebbione> i am wondering if it is really needed though to fix this
[04:35] <tomreyn> there are 8 pending updates, but i don't think those are the cause of whast you're seeing.
[04:35] <gebbione> indeed
[04:36] <tomreyn> i suggest you run https://github.com/tomreyn/scripts#foreign_packages and share the output
[04:43] <gebbione> https://termbin.com/83p5
[04:45] <tomreyn> what's the output of this?   sudo ldconfig --verbose 2>&1 | grep -F libc.
[04:46] <gebbione> thre lines showing `libc.so.6 -> libc-2.27.so`
[04:46] <gebbione> three
[04:46] <funspace> Hi i am not able to load my ubuntu 16.04 desktop with default gui desktop it is shows empty GUI screen
[04:46] <tomreyn> gebbione: okay, clean up those packages as reported by foreign_packages, it's a mess.
[04:47] <funspace> it was working fine one week back rite away sudden it was happening and i am using Google two factor authenticaton on it as well but i am ble to login ssh but not GUI
[04:47] <gebbione> tomreyn, are you referring to the ones in No available version in archive?
[04:48] <gebbione> sounds like a lot, any safe way of doing this?
[04:49] <tomreyn> gebbione: both sections can be problematic. you have apparently leftover packages from some ppas for different ubuntu distros, as well as packages which don't actually exist in ubuntu
[04:49] <tomreyn> and many leftover packages from xenial
[04:50] <tomreyn> altogether this can put the apt dependency resolver in a very difficult position
[04:50] <gebbione> in some case i can just remove them, like the php5 ones
[04:50] <gebbione> but in some cases I feel unsure if they are still providing some useful functionality
[04:51] <gebbione> like chrome
[04:51] <tomreyn> start with those you don't actually need, apt purge them
[04:51] <gebbione> ok i ll give it a try
[04:51] <tomreyn> those you think you still need you should find a compatible (to your current ubuntu release) apt source to, then up-/downgrade to that.
[04:52] <tomreyn> looks like you even have leftover packages from ubuntu 14.04
[04:53] <gebbione> java6 :/
[04:53] <tomreyn> funspace: i'd like to help but i'm also very tired, so i'll just suggest you provide more details on this system. what may have changed (packages updates, installed new third party software?) and could have caused this? which graphics hardware do you have there?
[04:55] <gebbione> mhhh not sure about python, the moment i remove that hell is going to unleash on earth
[04:58] <tomreyn> gebbione: python itself is not listed, just apt packages providing outdated python libraries
[04:58] <gebbione> tomreyn, for some packages like python is there a way to force their re-install from universal/bionic so it is not outdated?
[04:58] <gebbione> rather than just remove it?
[04:58] <gebbione> oh ok
[05:00] <tomreyn> bionic (18.04) doesn't have libpython3.5*, libpython3.6 and libpython3.7
[05:01] <tomreyn> bionic doesn't have python-pypdf but python-pypdf2, etc.
[05:01] <tatertots> release upgrades coming back to haunt lol
[05:02] <tomreyn> it helps when people do them as documented.
[05:03] <tomreyn> your python-gnupginterface package is a leftover from 12.04 or 14.04
[05:04] <tomreyn> if you recently built software on this system it's likely it got linked against insecure library versions. so be sure to replace those releases you made, if any.
[05:04] <funspace> tomreyn, Thanks for your reply mine is default OS came along with dell desktop optifplex
[05:05] <tomreyn> funspace: this posts info on your graphics card online so you can share the link with us:  lspci -knn | grep -A3 VGA | nc termbin.com 9999
[05:07] <funspace> https://termbin.com/642h
[05:09] <tomreyn> !recovery | funspace: okay so just intel graphics. try booting to recovery
[05:10] <tomreyn> just resuming the boot from the recovery menu should at least get you back to a graphical mode.
[05:11] <funspace> on recovery mode do i neeed to select any option
[05:11] <funspace> tomreyn, ?
[05:11] <gebbione> tomreyn, i have pretty much removed all the old stuff apart from gcc as it was giving me some errors https://termbin.com/mjvr
[05:11] <tomreyn> funspace: the one where it resumes the boot, i think it's the one on top or bottom
[05:12] <funspace> ok
[05:12] <gebbione> about the newer than version packages how can i force it to install latest
[05:12] <funspace> but as soon as i gnome login it showing default blank GUI screen will it be fix
[05:12] <funspace> in such case
[05:13] <tomreyn> gebbione: apt install PACKAGENAME=PACKAGEVERSIONINYOURUBUNTURELEASE
[05:14] <tomreyn> gebbione: apt policy PACKAGENAME     shows which versions are known / default in your ubuntu release, as well as the one you have currently installed (which can be the same)
[05:15] <tomreyn> the "Candidate" version is the one you should have installed, and should downgrade to as explained above.
[05:16] <funspace> tomreyn, yes resume is top one and i have selected it and it showed login screen and same error repated after login into my user i am not seeing any desktop icons
[05:16] <tomreyn> funspace: hmm no recovery won't help there. so you do get a graphical login screen, but a black (?) screen after login?
[05:17] <funspace> after login it showed me onlin mouse cursor thats all background is color one only and but no desktop icons
[05:17] <funspace> nothing
[05:17] <funspace> i am using LightDM
[05:18] <tomreyn> !xauthority | funspace
[05:18] <tomreyn> your description sounds like it may be yet another issue, though, and you should maybe post a full system log:  journalctl -b | nc termbin.com 9999
[05:18] <funspace> ok done rebooting it now
[05:19] <tomreyn> do that after the reboot
[05:19] <funspace> sure
[05:20] <funspace> https://termbin.com/oz6q4
[05:22] <tomreyn> gebbione: for an example, to downgrade the "lib32stdc++6" package to the proper bionic version, you should:   sudo apt install lib32stdc++6=8.3.0-6ubuntu1~18.04.1
[05:23] <gebbione> just install wont do it ... any reason why it should be downgraded? i guess the newer version is not compatible with 18.04
[05:32] <funspace> i tried with different desktop version like xubuntu and kubuntu but no use as soon as i login it is shwoing only mouse cursor thats it
[05:32] <tomreyn> gebbione: ubuntu releases come with specific package versions whose dependencies have been tested are known to work fine. what you do is use versions from different ubuntu releases and / or 3rd party repositories. and this needs fixing now
[05:34] <funspace> also i have enabled Google two factor authentication could that is conflicting with GUI gnome login? as it is working perfectly on ssh i dint touched it for gnome settings
[05:34] <tomreyn> funspace: you can create a new user account and try logging into that:  sudo apt adduser USERNAME --gecos '' --disabled password
[05:35] <tomreyn> i assume this new user would not have the same issue.
[05:35] <funspace> E: Command line option --gecos is not understood in combination with the other options
[05:35] <tomreyn> i really need sleep, though, so'm saying goodbye, gebbione and funspace
[05:36] <funspace> oh ok
[05:36] <funspace> sure take rest
[05:36] <funspace> thanks for the help tomreyn
[05:36] <tomreyn> yw. and probably missed single quotes from my command line.
[05:36] <tomreyn> ttyl
[05:37] <tomreyn> actually i had a typo, sorry: sudo apt adduser USERNAME --gecos '' --disabled-password
[05:37]  * tomreyn afk
[05:37] <gebbione> tomreyn, bye
[05:58] <gebbione> ok packages are clean and i still get a broken filezilla :/ https://termbin.com/34eu#
[06:01] <tatertots> gebbione: luckily you can do ssh/scp/ftp from ubuntu natively
[06:01] <gebbione> :(
[06:55] <nate> Did anything change in recent releases of ubuntu w/ Grub in lines of making it boot straight into CLI/Console capacity?  The old `nomodeset splash` method no longer seems to work
[07:25] <pomeha> hello, how to figure out the reason of the last reboot?
[07:45] <pomeha> and 2. I have Ubuntu 14.x VM and I need to grow it's lvm partition. Problem is that it seems that increasing disk size for the VM didn't result into system being able to claim that space for the LVM partition I wanted to grow. Could someone help me a bit? https://paste.ee/p/OtU2M
[07:46] <pomeha> `cfdisk` results into `FATAL ERROR: Cannot open disk drive`
[07:50] <pomeha> ah, it expected /dev/xvda, nvm
[07:58] <freannrak> I'm facing an issue with apple magic keyboard and media controls on Ubuntu 19.04. It used to work out of the box when I connected it as a bluetooth device. I've tried removing the device via `bluetoothctl -> remove`, but same result. It used to work flawlessly for months. I'm not sure what changed in the past several weeks.
[07:59] <freannrak> It's driving me insane because I know it used to work :(.
[08:00] <TheWild> hello
[08:00] <TheWild>  /dev/sda3: recovering journal
[08:00] <TheWild> Setting free inodes count to 10211997 (was 10149870)
[08:00] <TheWild> Setting free blocks count to 3114641 (was 3138566)
[08:00] <TheWild> hey, hey. I don't remember anything being written to sda3 long time before the crash. Should I be afraid of anything?
[08:01] <TheWild> it bugs me why there were actual errors. /dev/sda3 is neither / nor /home
[08:35] <freannrak> What could be the reason for media keys working when the keyboard is connected via usb and not working when it's connected via bluetooth only? `sudo showkey -k` doesn't output anything.
[09:01] <afidegnum> even though i just added a swap partition which i forgot to configure earlier, my systems is very slow
[09:01] <afidegnum> how do i speed it up?
[09:02] <lotuspsychje> afidegnum: what kind of system do you have? cpu/ram/hd-ssd?
[09:04] <afidegnum> i have a good 4Gb of RaM, amd AMD a65200 2.00 Ghz with 230Gb of HDD
[09:05] <lotuspsychje> afidegnum: with ubuntu-desktop on gnome?
[09:05] <afidegnum> ubuntu desktop
[09:05] <afidegnum> 18.04
[09:06] <lotuspsychje> afidegnum: im affraid those specs are a bit low for gnome in combo with a spinner HD, unless you start deep wteaking things
[09:06] <Ascavasaion> afidegnum, LXDE desktop might help.
[09:06] <afidegnum> ok
[09:06] <lotuspsychje> afidegnum: so your best bets are, lubuntu, xubuntu ot tweak gnome more
[09:06] <lotuspsychje> *or
[09:07] <Ascavasaion> afidegnum, I run Lubuntu on a Dual Core laptop and it runs fine.
[09:08] <afidegnum> what do i in install in adition to have lxde desktop? or l/xubuntu ?
[09:08] <lotuspsychje> afidegnum: you can install lubuntu-desktop or xubuntu-desktop from your current install to test, but we reccomend if you like one, to clean install the flavour of choice
[09:09] <lotuspsychje> !flavours | afidegnum see also
[09:09] <Seveas>  /win 32
[09:09] <afidegnum> which is lighter one? between them?
[09:09] <akemlenovo> BTW swap will not really help speed up things, it's here to help if you get low on RAM mainly and it's on the hard drive so it's not that speed. Maybe your system could support another 4GB ram stick inside.
[09:09] <lotuspsychje> afidegnum: in normal cases lubuntu is lightest, but i had machines before running smoother on xubuntu
[09:10] <afidegnum> ok
[09:10] <lotuspsychje> afidegnum: testing it on your personal hardware is reccomended to see
[09:11] <akemlenovo> You can also try Cinnamon instead of Gnome.
[09:16] <Ascavasaion> afidegnum, I am running Lubuntu on four of my computers here at home, and Xubuntu on another Asus Transformer Book
[09:17] <Ascavasaion> For what that info is worth.
[09:27] <mfoo> Hi, is there a channel specifically for Landscape? My server is unresponsive and is returning OperationInProgress (has been for about a day). I can see it's writing what looks like binary data to postgres and I can see postgres has ~10 landscape-user queries running ROLLBACK, but otherwise I don't have much information.
[09:31] <sarnold> mfoo: I haven't seen one, #ubuntu-server exists but it's kind of hit-or-miss about these things; a bug report or support request would be better, I think
[09:31] <afidegnum> ok
[09:31] <mfoo> sarnold: thanks
[09:34] <lotuspsychje> !landscape | mfoo
[09:36] <raddy> Hello Everybody
[09:36] <raddy> I would like to learn kubernetes and Helm charts in Linux
[09:37] <raddy> I have a laptop with HyperV support from hardware and software
[09:38] <raddy> So, shall I install ubuntu on top of that and explore or better to install directly /
[09:40] <sarnold> raddy: excellent question; the ubuntu-on-windows thing is still pretty new. if you like to try and test and fiddle and file bug reports, running it there would be nice :D but if you just want sometihng to work, then installing ubuntu directly would probably be better
[10:01] <pomeha> is there a way to figure out reboot reason?
[10:17] <elias_a> pomeha: Would this be of any help? https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/9819/how-to-find-out-from-the-logs-what-caused-system-shutdown
[10:18] <pomeha> elias_a: unfortunately no. I had googled that too.
[10:19] <pomeha> there's no /var/log/acpid, there's no /var/log/messages/ and journalctl remembers only 1 (current) boot :/
[10:19] <pomeha> `last -x` seems to be kinda useless
[10:19] <tds> did your system cleanly reboot, or just reset out of the blue?
[10:19] <tds> and you probably want /var/log/syslog rather than messages
[10:32] <natten> Anyone got any suggestions why this request just sits there until it times out when running from google cloud function but not from local?
[10:32] <natten> Curl from cloud function -> https://hastebin.com/xijisizono.txt
[10:32] <pomeha> tds: that's what I'd like to figure out. And no, syslog is useless :(
[10:33] <tds> oh? it should normally be quite obvious in syslog if the machine rebooted cleanly or not
[10:33] <TJ-> pomeha: what Ubunty release is it?
[10:38] <OerHeks> natten, don't crosspost, you know what -vk does ?
[10:39] <natten> OerHeks: Well yeah, verbose and to not verify the ssl connection
[10:39] <natten> It doesn't work without them if thats what you're asking
[10:40] <natten> Also tried to copy the capath and cacert locally to see if that did anything. Nothing happened
[10:40] <natten> Sorry for the crosspost but im at a loss here, and really need to get this working somehow
[10:40] <OerHeks> oh oke, that would be my 2nd question
[10:42] <OerHeks> i have no clue then :-(
[10:46] <tds> natten: most of the times I've seen tls hang after the handshake like that is mtu issues
[10:47] <tds> http is often fine, as is ssh until you send a load of text at once and hit the mtu
[10:48] <natten> tds: Sounds likely, how would i go about debugging / fixing it?
[10:49] <tds> a dump check would be to drop the mtu on your default route
[10:52] <natten> tds: not really sure on how to check what the mtu is in the cloud function. Its ubuntu, but ifconfig and ip are not there
[10:52] <tds> hmm, missing ip sounds odd
[10:53] <tds> can you `dpkg -l iproute2`?
[10:53] <natten> i lied ip is not missing, but it returns "EOF on netlink\nDump terminated"
[10:54] <natten> when calling ip addr
[10:59] <natten> tds: seems like you were correct though. When lowering my mtu to 1400 locally i experience the same behavior
[10:59] <natten> Do you know what i can do to fix this? I guess increasing the mtu on the cloud function is difficult
[10:59] <tds> can you add iptables rules on this "cloud function"?
[11:00] <tds> a typical solution would be to do mss clamping in iptables
[11:00] <natten> tds: i highly doubt i can do anything about it if it is not on application level in the cloud function
[11:02] <natten> Isn't there anything the api/server can do to "fix" lower mtu's?
[11:27] <MrMojit0> Good morning/afternoon/evening
[11:27] <MrMojit0> I am wondering what I am doing wrong. I am new to Linux world so also for Ubuntu. But I have a two running Ubuntu machines with both Nagios on it and running smoothly.
[11:28] <MrMojit0> But I cannot seem to get e-mails from one machine. So I tried to send a fake e-mail using: /usr/bin/printf "%b" "test" | /usr/bin/mail -s "test subject"<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[11:28] <MrMojit0> But I don´t get any email in my inbox
[11:29] <MrMojit0> So I looked into /usr/bin and I see that on the working machine I have the following installations "mail, Mail, mailq, mailx".
[11:29] <MrMojit0> But on the other machine where the email functionality is not working I only have "mailx"
[11:29] <MrMojit0> Does anyone here can help me to get on the right road?
[11:31] <papin> I don't know if `mail` is available on apt repo or not
[11:36] <MrMojit0> How can I verify that?
[11:36] <ducasse> MrMojit0: try installing mailutils
[11:37] <MrMojit0> I have installed it with: apt-get install mailutils
[11:39] <MrMojit0> Do I need to look into the help files to send a fake email to see if it is working
[11:40] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[11:42] <MrMojit0> Hi
[11:45] <MrMojit0> @Papin @ducasse, I don have the e-mail working but I did installed mailutils on both machines and on the one it is falling and on the other works. So I guess it has to be something on network level / firewall.
[11:45] <MrMojit0> Thanks for helping me out I got a bit further here :D
[11:49] <ducasse> MrMojit0: what does  /etc/alternatives/mail point tò?
[11:49] <nate> Figure there may be someone awake now to answer; Anyone know what the switches for booting straight into a non-GUI (console/terminal) mode from grub would be in current ubuntu builds?  It used to be something along the lines of `nomodeset splash` but it doesn't seem to work anymore.  I tried `nomodeset text` I saw in some posts as well to no avail
[11:51] <MrMojit0> ducasse: I don´t know what to do in: /etc/alternatives/, if I open the mail with nano I get random symbols
[11:52] <ducasse> MrMojit0: 'ls -l  /etc/alternatives/mail'
[11:53] <MrMojit0> It points to the correct installation: /etc/alternatives/mail -> /usr/bin/mail.mailutils
[11:53] <MrMojit0> As for my other machine it points to: /etc/alternatives/mail -> /usr/bin/bsd-mailx
[11:53] <MrMojit0> The one that works is the bsd-mailx.
[11:58] <ducasse> MrMojit0: ok, i'm not sure what to suggest, try asking in #ubuntu-server. you might have to wait a bit for an answer.
[11:59] <MrMojit0> You helped me already more then enough. I will look further my self and find my way through this magical forest. Thanks Cheers!
[12:04] <ducasse> MrMojit0: look at the update-altenatives man page
[12:06] <TJ-> MrMojit0: sounds like you need to install "bsd-mailx" and ensure it is the choice for "update-alternatives --display mail"
[12:06] <MrMojit0> I can do that no worries let me handle that TJ-
[12:07] <MrMojit0> ducasse I don´t know what update-alternatives man page is, sorry for this question but I don´t know what it is. Still noob with linux
[12:10] <TJ-> MrMojit0: on Debian-derived distributions like Ubuntu there is a policy to provide [man]ual pages for every command. The tool to read them is called "man", so "man update-laternatives" will give you an overview and is usually more explanatory than doing, for example, "update-alternatives --help"
[12:10] <TJ-> oops, typo, "man update-alternatives"
[12:16] <MrMojit0> I tried to understand but I do not get it. Shall I not first look into the firewall/network
[12:16] <rigel_> in my alsamixer, There is [Master] [Headphone] [Speaker] [PCM]... volume bars. The [Headphone] bar controls both the laptop's external earplugs/headphones and the internal speakers. The [Speaker] label/volume bar does jack. How do I align them properly?
[12:17] <rigel_> This is only a problem because when i unplug the headphones that level gets set to 0 and i have to manually turn it up everytime.
[12:19] <BluesKaj> rigel_, after setting your levels in alsamixer run, sudo alsactl store, that should hold the volume settings
[12:20] <rigel_> but the [Speaker] bar should control the internal speakers, that's my real gripe here
[12:21] <__monty__> Hi, I'm trying to install an i386 package (ghc) on a CI ubuntu box that seems to have a ton of held packages. Is there a better way to get this installed than iteratively adding whatever dependency apt-get complains about to the command and rerunning?
[12:23] <sarnold> __monty__: dpkg --get-selections should let you find what's held, you can sed those to install or whatever, then feed that back into dpkg --set-selections, then an apt-get install -f will probably upgade everything. but you might want to talk to whoever held all those packages first.
[12:24] <__monty__> sarnold: There's no "hold" in --get-selections output. Only install/deinstall.
[12:24] <sarnold> __monty__: hmm. am I misremembering or are there no held packages? :D
[12:24] <BluesKaj> rigel_, I don't have speaker vol ctl so I'm not sure how it interacts with other ctls, but make sure the automute ctl is disabled
[12:24] <sarnold> I've only done that once or twice in twenty years..
[12:25] <rigel_> no it's enabled, because when i disable it and plug in the headphones, both the headphones and the speakers play
[12:25] <__monty__> sarnold: I'm not sure. I read the --get-selection advice elsewhere. All I know is apt-get install complains about held packages and --get-selection doesn't actually list any as "hold".
[12:27] <sarnold> __monty__: apt also has some repo pinning, that *might* show the same thing, but I've never actually usd pinning, so I'm less sure of what it looks like
[12:36] <__monty__> Well, manually adding packages to the command has gotten me further along. Though now it's failing because dpkg can't start the php 7.3 fpm?
[12:38] <__monty__> I don't think I care about php-fpm in this instance so can I simply remove it before? Or will it be pulled in as a dep anyway?
[12:39] <sarnold> that depends entirely upon your local configuration / application
[12:49] <raddy> Hello Everybody
[12:49] <raddy> I have installed vanilla gnome desktop in ubuntu server using tasksel
[12:49] <raddy> In ubuntu 18.04 server
[12:50] <raddy> But everything is still text only and GUI is not loadiing
[12:50] <raddy> Please help
[12:51] <ioria> raddy, sudo systemctl restart gdm3
[12:52] <raddy> ioria: I have tried restarting the server itself, still no go
[12:52] <ioria> raddy, dpkg -l | grep  gdm3
[12:52] <raddy> I think I should not have installed the gnome desktop using tasksel
[12:52] <ioria> raddy, dpkg -l | grep  gdm3
[12:54] <raddy> okk
[12:54] <ioria> is installed or not ?
[12:55] <raddy> ioria: No.
[12:55] <ioria> raddy, sudo apt install --reinstall vanilla-gnome-desktop
[12:55] <raddy> ioria: I am not sure what has tasksel done
[12:55] <ioria> raddy, sudo apt install --reinstall vanilla-gnome-desktop
[12:55] <raddy> I installed now
[12:56] <raddy> I hope apt install gnome-session would be suffice
[12:56] <raddy> Isn't it ?
[12:56] <sarnold> why would you not run what ioria asked you to run?
[12:58] <raddy> I ran what ioria has suggested
[12:59] <raddy> Is gnome vanilla desktop is light weight or ubuntu desktop ?
[12:59] <raddy> I know both are heavy, but still which one is lighter among them
[14:19] <codedmart> I see you can order the Dell Precision 5540 with Ubuntu installed. It has a Quadro T1000 nVidia card. Does that mean it is using the propietery drivers probably? Are those very reliable in linux these days?
[14:19] <codedmart> Haven't had a nVidia card for years.
[14:20] <lotuspsychje> codedmart: the nvidia drivers are decent on ubuntu these days, alot of version choices too
[14:20] <lotuspsychje> !nvidia | codedmart see the ppa
[14:21] <pragmaticenigma> codedmart: that sounds like a question you would have to ask Dell as far as how they configured the machine
[14:21] <codedmart> Right I get that. I assumed that because nouveau doesn't have OpenGL support for those cards yet.
[14:21] <sarnold> codedmart: I understand nvidia drops old cards pretty quickly
[14:22] <sarnold> codedmart: depending upon the age of the card it may go easier or worse
[14:22] <OerHeks> the 430 supports Quadro T1000 and T2000 https://www.nvidia.com/Download/driverResults.aspx/148435/en-us
[14:22] <codedmart> I really want a new thinkpad and am looking at the p1 just cause I want the power. Which also comes with the Quadro T1000.
[14:22] <OerHeks> you might want the driver ppa https://launchpad.net/~graphics-drivers/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
[14:23] <codedmart> sarnold: What is old? I mean after a few years or...?
[14:24] <lotuspsychje> codedmart: well lets say graphics cards that go below the 390 version, might have bad luck
[14:25] <sarnold> codedmart: no idea :) I don't follow nvidia real close, I just know I've seen a few complaints from people who find their cards are no longer supported before they expected
[14:25] <lotuspsychje> codedmart: but then there's always lubuntu/xubuntu
[14:25] <codedmart> So anyone have suggestions/recommendations on a thinkpad? Is the p1 a good one? Should I consider something else? I at least need 32gb of ram which cuts out my original thought of x1c.
[14:26] <lotuspsychje> codedmart: the hardware choice is really what you need it to be
[14:26] <lotuspsychje> codedmart: we can only help with the ubuntu side of things
[14:26] <sarnold> yeah :( I really like my x1c but I wish it had 32 or 64 gigs of ecc...
[14:27] <codedmart> Well I am always concerned with getting the most compatible laptop for linux as well which is why I ask
[14:27] <codedmart> I prefer just the intel gpu, but it is hard to find powerful laptops with just that.
[14:28] <lotuspsychje> codedmart: alot of machines will run fine with ubuntu, if you choose latest ryzens there might be some kernel fights..
[14:28] <codedmart> I considered the T460s as well since I can get 32gb of ram. But the CPU is much less then the P1. Just trying to weight everything out.
[14:29] <codedmart> OK so even with a Quadro T1000 I should be ok? I mean ideally I could just turn that card off and use the integrated, but I suspect the external will require the nVidia for that.
[14:30] <ioria> codedmart, that card is  based on the Turing architecture (TU117 chip), so it should be supported by nouveau  too
[14:30] <rexwin_> i set the DNS as
[14:30] <rexwin_> nameserver <IP_ADDRESS> nameserver <IP_ADDRESS>
[14:30] <rexwin_> in /etc/resolv.conf
[14:31] <rexwin_> but it doesnot resolve using the windows DNS server
[14:31] <Sven_vB> can I have a script be triggered each time someone tries to login on text console with a non-existing username, and have that username passed to the script?
[14:31] <codedmart> ioria: I was told it was, but without OpenGL.
[14:31] <ioria> maybe
[14:31] <codedmart> OK thanks for all the info everyone.
[14:33] <ioria> codedmart, i suggest the 5.3 kernel in any case
[14:34] <TJ-> Sven_vB:  yes I think there is a PAM module to do things like that
[14:35] <ioria> only Turing TU116  in 5.3...
[14:37] <Iarla> I have a laptop running 18.04. It's Core 2 Duo so it can't really handle the desktop. What's an alternative desktop environment I can download that wont interfere too much with the users who stay on Unity/Gnome Shell?
[14:38] <tonyt> larla you can try lxde desktop enviroment by doing sudo apt-get get update, sudo apt-get install lxde lxsession
[14:39] <tonyt> then reboot the machine and log in with the lxde option
[14:42] <codedmart> ioria: Only TU116 in 5.3? Didn't you say Quadro T1000 is TU117?
[14:43] <ioria> yep
[14:43] <ryuo> Iarla: you can't move to something a few years newer? even an ancient ivy bridge would be a real improvement.
[14:44] <rexwin_> resolve.conf get overwritten. how to avoid that?
[14:45] <ryuo> rexwin_: you don't necessarily but you can work with whatever is managing the settings.
[14:45] <tds> what's it being overwritten by? most tools that do that will leave a comment at the top of the file
[14:45] <rexwin_> i want to set dns servers and it gets overwritten after 5-10 minutes
[14:46] <ryuo> rexwin_: for what matter, what version are you using?
[14:46] <ryuo> that*
[14:46] <rexwin_> 18
[14:46] <ryuo> desktop? server?
[14:46] <DigbyMW> What name does Ubuntu use for X/X11/X Window System? I have installed xorg and now i just want to run x on it
[14:47] <ryuo> DigbyMW: The X server is called X but you don't usually start it that way.
[14:47] <ryuo> normally use a display manager or startx for manual starts.
[14:47] <DigbyMW> Well, usually i'd do "startx fluxbox"
[14:48] <DigbyMW> But for once i'm not using fluxbox and don't know what name to use
[14:48] <ryuo> it'll fallback to whatever is defined in your .xinitrc
[14:48] <rexwin_> desktop
[14:49] <ryuo> rexwin_: you're probably using network manager. you can't configure the DNS from there?
[14:49] <DigbyMW> Ryuo, is x installed by default with xorg?
[14:50] <ryuo> DigbyMW: ... it *should* be. 'X' is the server. you can't start it without it.
[14:50] <ryuo> DigbyMW: but you normally use another method to start it.
[14:50] <ryuo> e.g., start or a systemd service
[14:50] <ryuo> startx
[14:50] <DigbyMW> i am aware. this is an unusual usecase
[14:50] <TJ-> DigbyMW: usually there's a display manager, and it is controlled via "systemctl start display-manager.service"
[14:51] <DigbyMW> i'm using ubuntu server, so no display manager or any such thing is installed at the moment
[14:51] <DigbyMW> and i don't want to use one
[14:51] <BluesKaj> rexwin_, in systemd the dns settings can be setup in /etc/systemd/resolved.conf
[14:52] <tds> on most ubuntu desktop installs resolved has its config pushed to it from network-manager over dbus - so do what ryuo said :)
[14:53] <DigbyMW> just to be clear, i'm talking about trying to run the x window system, the window manager traditionally provided with x server. i have always been able to do this with fluxbox, openbox etc. i'm just not sure what the package for x window system is called
[14:53] <Sven_vB> or can I bind scripts to function keys in the text console login prompt? currently F1 just prints ^[[[A, I'm sure pretty much no-one uses that as part of their username. would be much more useful if that ran my script.
[14:54] <DigbyMW> startx just goes to black and then brings me back to my tty so it isn't defaulting to x window system if it *is* installed
[14:56] <Iarla> ryuo: not in this case, no. I know there are smaller-footprint desktops, just not sure how theyl'l affect the Unity user.
[15:36] <shreds> Hi! I'm using uswsusp to hibernate my XPS laptop. But for the past weeks, it hibernates without actually shutting down so I need to manually reboot my laptop and lose everything that was supposed to be "saved". I noticed I'm all over the place trying to reconfigure uswsusp properly, do I really need pm-utils for this? I noticed I can trigger hibernation via systemd, pm-utils, s2disk, etc. What is really THE tool I need?
[15:36] <shreds> thx
[15:38] <shreds> I tried setting hibernate_mode to shutdown, also set /sys/power/disk to [shutdown] I noticed it always sets itself back to [platform] could that be part of my problem?
[15:42] <tomreyn> you should mention which ubuntu and kernel version you're on, whether there are related logs (and if so, share them).
[15:45] <shreds> good idea! I'm currently on Ubuntu 19.04 with Kernel 5.3.0 but the problem has been happening for the past month or so and back then I was on Ubuntu 18.10 with kernel 5.1.* and 5.2.*
[15:46] <shreds> that's the damn thing, there's no s2disk logs at all, I can't see anything in syslog/dmesg/pm2-suspend says everything is okay, I cannot find any logs or erroneous messages to get a hint from :(
[15:49] <tomreyn> https://askubuntu.com/questions/16239/how-to-debug-suspend
[15:49] <tomreyn> i know hibernation (to disk) is not suspend (to ram), but debugging should be similar
[15:50] <tomreyn> also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelSuspend
[15:52] <shreds> I'll check these out thanks! @tomreyn
[15:55] <tomreyn> also consider setting up a serial console (if that's possible on this system, probably not on a laptop) to see late and early kernel output which cannot be logged to disk (yet during early boot, or no more during suspend)
[15:57] <tomreyn> shreds: the first think you shouldprobably do, though, is to ensure you have the latest 'bios' installed, and to inspect your system logs, looking for (not only, but especially) acpi issues during boot.
[15:59] <tomreyn> https://iam.tj/prototype/enhancements/Windows-acpi_osi.html may help you work around a buggy / windows version centric acpi impementation of your mainboard firmware.
[16:00] <shreds> @tomreyn I'll see what I can do to debug this as best as I can. I'm fairly new to that kind of kernel level debugging but I want to learn more about it so I can debug these kind of issues in the future. About the bios, that's what I suspect to be honest, I did a bios upgrade not long ago and I don't know if I'm just crazy but it seems to stem from that upgrade :-/
[16:00] <shreds> I'll keep that close, thanks a lot, that's a good beginning. At least if I can debug it myself I'd be very happy hehe
[16:02] <tomreyn> shreds: you can post    journalctl -b | nc termbin.com 9999    if you like, and (while i'm not really qualified either), i'll be happy to put a second pair of eyes on those logs.
[16:06] <shreds> @tomreyn I have nothing to lose so here it is: https://termbin.com/yuym hehe xD thx a lot for your help I appreciate
[16:06] <Lutinmalin> Hi, can anyone help a noob with a lxqt-powermanagement issue? My battery is not detected, but seen by lshw
[16:08] <Lutinmalin> I tried some acpi_osi fix script but that didn't solve the issue
[16:15] <lotuspsychje> Lutinmalin: for acpi related issues, you can also try to update bios to latest, some cases can solve aswell
[16:16] <Lutinmalin> lotuspsychje: thx, will look into that
[16:17] <lotuspsychje> Lutinmalin: the fwupdate project has also some recent updates, you might wanna check that first on your own system to update bios
[16:21] <ioria> Lutinmalin, you can install conky to test if it' s an acpi issue or a lxqt issue
[16:21] <Lutinmalin> acpi command doesn't show any battery
[16:22] <tomreyn> shreds: sorry, been afk for a bit, looking now
[16:22] <Lutinmalin> only lshw does ioria
[16:23] <shreds> tomreyn: np :P
[16:24] <ioria> Lutinmalin, upower -i `upower -e | grep 'BAT'`
[16:25] <Lutinmalin> no, upower neither :/ ioria
[16:25] <ioria> Lutinmalin, you mean command not found or blank output ?
[16:25] <Lutinmalin> blank ioria
[16:26] <ioria> Lutinmalin, is it plugged ?
[16:26] <Lutinmalin> right now, yes, but I tried unplugged too
[16:26] <shreds> tomreyn: I noticed something weird. Running s2disk does not the SAME as running `echo disk > /sys/power/state` (this prints PM related messages but still works alright)
[16:27] <ioria> Lutinmalin, what laptop is that ?
[16:27] <Lutinmalin> hp pavillon x2 tablet pc
[16:28] <Lutinmalin> I tried that too ioria: http://iam.tj/prototype/enhancements/Windows-acpi_osi.html
[16:28] <Lutinmalin> no luck
[16:31] <ioria> Lutinmalin, what kernel ?
[16:33] <ioria> Lutinmalin,  uname -r
[16:34] <tomreyn> shreds: i think you should try to make systemd's hibernation work, if any.
[16:34] <Lutinmalin> ioria: 5.0.0-27-generic
[16:34] <ioria> Lutinmalin, a bug probably
[16:34] <ioria> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upower/+bug/1606159
[16:34] <tomreyn> shreds: i assume video.only_lcd=0 is to overcome a backlight issue? i only see few mentions of it online, and a kernel patch which i assume made it into 4.17 (so you should no longer be affected)
[16:36] <Lutinmalin> ah... reported in 2016 :/
[16:37] <Lutinmalin> I'll try a bios update, and if that doesn't help, is there a lightweight distro that might not have this issue ioria ?
[16:37] <shreds> tomreyn: yes it was for a backlight issue. I also noticed my /swapfile partition does not have any UUID but for example in /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume I have a UUID so maybe a partition misconfiguration? I have a hard time figuring out the difference between systemd hibernation, pm-utils and the rest of the different ways of hibernating. I'd like to keep only one of them and make it work.
[16:37] <shreds> What worked before was having uswsusp handle it all with systemd, I had pm-utils installed but I don't believe I used it
[16:38] <ioria> Lutinmalin, you 're already using lxqt ; you can try lxde ....
[16:38] <shreds> FYI I have the same parition UUID in /etc/default/grub and /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume
[16:38] <ioria> Lutinmalin, less charge, but the issue will be the same
[16:39] <tomreyn> shreds: make sure the UUID listed in /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume is correct, or that you remove the file, then run    sudo update-initreamfs -k all -u
[16:39] <Lutinmalin> a pity... okay big thanks anyway ioria
[16:39] <ioria> Lutinmalin, read this  (not sure about the fix btw): https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Notebook-Hardware-and-Upgrade-Questions/Battery-recognition-Linux/td-p/7040710
[16:40] <tomreyn> shreds: it is correct when it points to a swap partition which has this same UUID, is active (swapon), and is at least slightly larger than your installed physical RAM
[16:40] <shreds> tomreyn: I'm getting dizzy from going in circles lol sorry about that but I just realized I don't HAVE a partition since I use a file on the disk to hibernate! it's on my main parition in /swapfile.
[16:41] <shreds> tomreyn: my /swapfile is about 17GB and my ram is 16GB. swapon still says /swapfile file  17G   0B   -2 which seems to be okay
[16:41] <ioria> Lutinmalin, in few words, he states that it works on Fedora but not on ubuntu
[16:42] <Lutinmalin> guess I'll try Fedora then ioria, is that somewhat light?
[16:42] <tomreyn> shreds: i guess a swapfile should also work. be sure to remove the incorrect resume configuration then and to update-grub and update-initramfs
[16:42] <ioria> Lutinmalin, idk fedora, but i guess you can install anothe desktop env on it
[16:42] <Lutinmalin> desktop env is gnome kde and the likes?
[16:43] <shreds> tomreyn: the UUID I point to is my own linux parition which seems right since the /swapfile is on there
[16:43] <tomreyn> shreds: and an offset is given, then i guess it is fine.
[16:43] <ioria> Lutinmalin, yes, go with lxqt or lxde
[16:44] <Lutinmalin> is that something I have to choose before downloading the iso, during install or later? ioria
[16:44] <ioria> Lutinmalin, as i said, i don't know fwdora; sorry try its channel
[16:44] <shreds> tomreyn: resuming always went fine so I guess that part is okay, it's the whole hibernate that won't shutdown thing that messes everything up for me :-/ here's the GRUB line with the offset: GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="resume=UUID=cc859e63-da11-476d-b094-62d8a834e851 resume_offset=26736640 video.only_lcd=0"
[16:45] <Lutinmalin> understood thanks ioria :) will try bios update first
[16:45] <ioria> Lutinmalin, sure, gl
[16:45] <shreds> I guess I could get rid of pm-utils altogether since I don't seem to use it at all
[16:48] <tomreyn> shreds: it's in universe, so can't be essential, so i guess that'll be fine.
[16:50] <tomreyn> the same goes for uswsusp (which provides s2disk)
[16:50] <shreds> but to hibernate on disk I read often that I explicitly needed uswsusp otherwise there was no support for on disk hibernation. maybe I just read something outdated though
[16:51] <shreds> I'll try to find more about it though, if I can remove pm-utils and uswsusp to keep it as light and simple as possible it'd be great
[16:51] <shreds> that's a good first step, I'm trying to remove everything that isn't needed. I will try to do as you said and make the basic systemd hibernation works by itself and go from there trying to debug. I was trying to debug everything at once and got lost but now I should be able to make some progress thanks to you :P @tomreyn
[16:51] <marcoagpinto> guys?! What is this on 19.04?: https://i.imgur.com/iWBMdSH.png
[16:52] <marcoagpinto> lots of lines of text while booting
[16:52] <marcoagpinto> and so far it didn't get to the login screen
[16:55] <lordcirth_> marcoagpinto, that doesn't tell us much. Have you tried recovery mode? Did 19.04 boot on this machine before?
[16:56] <Sven_vB> marcoagpinto, it's progress information so you can see what your system is doing. with a bit of experience this can help you estimate how much longer it will need until you can do stuff.
[16:56] <lordcirth_> Yeah, the boot text is normal; and it doesn't tell us what's preventing you from getting a login
[16:57] <Sven_vB> marcoagpinto, if you prefer a greeter image, try press F2, that should switch between greeter image and progress info.
[16:57] <lordcirth_> Sven_vB, I think he wants help getting it to finish booting, first...
[16:58] <marcoagpinto> yes
[16:58] <marcoagpinto> it doesn't show login
[16:58] <Sven_vB> marcoagpinto, it might need more time to prepare
[16:58] <marcoagpinto> but? it is the first time it happens?
[16:58] <Sven_vB> marcoagpinto, what happens usually instead?
[16:58] <marcoagpinto> I never seen this text before?
[16:59] <lordcirth_> marcoagpinto, So 19.04 booted normally before? How long ago?
[16:59] <marcoagpinto> day 10
[16:59] <willksm> marcoagpinto, try and press F2
[16:59] <lordcirth_> F2 isn't going to start gdm
[16:59] <marcoagpinto> F2 does nothing :((((
[16:59] <lordcirth_> marcoagpinto, see if you can boot into recovery mode.
[17:00] <Sven_vB> marcoagpinto, is the text a problem for you? it's not harmful if that's what you were worried about. especially if most of them are green and "OK".
[17:00] <lordcirth_> Sven_vB, the problem is, as he said, it's not finishing boot
[17:00] <Sven_vB> marcoagpinto, when there's something to worry it will be shown in orange or even red
[17:00] <Sven_vB> lordcirth_, that's why I asked what happens usually instead
[17:00] <tomreyn> shreds: you may be right when you say some of these utilities are required - i really do not know. if you read up on systemd-special(7) looking for "hibernate" you'll see how systemd instruments it, and can then inspect those targets.
[17:01] <marcoagpinto> Buaaaaaaaaaaa
[17:01] <tomreyn> ... to see how hibernation actually works.
[17:01] <marcoagpinto> Buaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
[17:02] <lordcirth_> marcoagpinto, not helpful. Does recovery mode work?
[17:03] <marcoagpinto> well, I still see the text and no login screen... should I poweroff the VM?
[17:03] <lordcirth_> marcoagpinto, yes, reboot it and boot to recovery.
[17:03] <marcoagpinto> how do I boot to recovery?
[17:04] <Sven_vB> marcoagpinto, so is your problem that it doesn't boot quickly enough? you could SSH in and check the logs
[17:04] <marcoagpinto> Sven_vB: I have 19.04 since .04 (April) and it is the first time I see this text
[17:04] <marcoagpinto> usually it takes a few seconds to the login screen
[17:05] <Sven_vB> it take that as "yes it doesn't boot as quickly as expected"
[17:05] <marcoagpinto> yes, it doesn't boot as quickly as usual
[17:06] <marcoagpinto> I have updated the two VMs with 18.04 and I didn't see any text on them
[17:10] <lordcirth_> marcoagpinto, at the grub menu, you choose advanced options, then recovery.
[17:10] <marcoagpinto> ahhh... let me try
[17:12] <marcoagpinto> ohhhh... no GRUB :) I don't know how to make it appear... but in the reboot it said "recovering journal... orphanated something"
[17:12] <marcoagpinto> and now it got to the login screen
[17:13] <lordcirth_> marcoagpinto, hmm, so it only happened once? That's interesting. What's the most recent change in /var/log/apt/history.log?
[17:13] <tomreyn> shreds: so, upon further inspection it doesn't seem like systemd needs any of these extra utilities to carry out hibernation, it provides its own. see also systemd-hibernate.service(8)
[17:13] <marcoagpinto> let me check
[17:16] <shreds> @tomreyn really? even for on disk swapfiles? that's interesting, I'll go check these docs out. sorry I got out to grab something to eat hehe
[17:18] <marcoagpinto> lordcirth_: https://pastebin.com/4ahGRs72
[17:18] <MibixFox> can someone help me with formatting a drive so I don't lose a bunch of space to reserved root and too many i-nodes
[17:18] <tomreyn> shreds: yes. "Note that scripts or binaries dropped in /lib/systemd/system-sleep/ are intended for local use only and should be considered hacks." however, those 'hacks' seem to ususlly work. ;) enojy your food.
[17:18] <MibixFox> I used to have a command I used but I cant remember it
[17:18] <Sven_vB> MibixFox, tunefs can adjust the number or percentage of reserved blocks
[17:19] <Sven_vB> MibixFox, tune2fs
[17:19] <lordcirth_> marcoagpinto, hmm, there was a systemd update on the 11th, that might be related. But if it doesn't happen again, you can probably ignore it.
[17:19] <marcoagpinto> ahhhhh
[17:19] <marcoagpinto> lordcirth_: thanks :)
[17:19] <Sven_vB> MibixFox, also mkfs.ext3 should have an option to do so initially
[17:19] <marcoagpinto> what is systemd?
[17:19] <marcoagpinto> :)
[17:20] <Sven_vB> marcoagpinto, systemd is the services manager that manages what needs to be done to prepare your computer for interactive use.
[17:20] <MibixFox> Sven_vB im doing it intially the drive is empty im just not sure on the exact make2fs command
[17:20] <shreds> @tomreyn that's very interesting, I'll try to strip all extra tools out and go from there to see what happens. I never took the time to read systemd docs properly, that's a quite good learning experience so far :P
[17:21] <Sven_vB> MibixFox, man mkfs.ext2 (or …3 or …4=
[17:21] <marcoagpinto> ahhhhhhhh
[17:21] <MibixFox> ok one sec let me make the line and you tell me if its right lol
[17:22] <Sven_vB> MibixFox, how about you just try it on a small file and check the result? :)
[17:23] <Sven_vB> MibixFox, you can use "truncate --size=20M diskfile" to create a 20 MB file named "diskfile", then use that as the target "disk" for mkfs
[17:23] <shreds> i.e. s2disk is part of the uswsusp package, s2disk is what seems to be used by my systemd config at the moment: /etc/systemd/system/systemd-hibernate.service.d/override.conf = https://termbin.com/5o49
[17:24] <shreds> so I guess if I get rid of uswsusp I'll need to remove that override.conf but still I don't know if it will still suspend to disk like it used to, I'll have to try it out
[17:29] <tomreyn> shreds: it should still be able to do so, if systemd's implementation is sound. i assume /etc/systemd/system/systemd-hibernate.service.d/override.conf exists on your system as a result of installing and enabling uswsusp
[17:30] <shreds> @tomreyn:  just tried to echo disk > sys state to test hibernation on the kernel level and it did exactly the issue I talk about: everything is suspended but the laptop is still powered on the keyboard lighting works but nothing respond so I need to reboot
[17:30] <shreds> I got rid of the override.conf after removing uswuspsp
[17:31] <tomreyn> shreds: if "got rid of" == "rm" that's maybe not the right approach.
[17:32] <tomreyn> the issue you're describing is most likely a firmware issue, though
[17:32] <shreds> I commented the code I side it. But I don’t think I ran the tool to update systemd on an after thought
[17:32] <shreds> Yeah sounds like that most definitely
[17:33] <MibixFox> Sven_vB I think this is what I want mkfs.ext4 -L R -m 0 -b 4096 -N 1000000 -E lazy_itable_init=0 -V /dev/sdf1
[17:33] <shreds> Really sounds like 1) kernel update messed it up or 2) bios update messed it up
[17:33] <MibixFox> label it as R, 0 reserved, 4096 block size, 1 million i-nodes, the fast way, location of device to format
[17:33] <tomreyn> shreds: since no bios update is available for this system at this time, you could try to experiment with http://iam.tj/prototype/enhancements/Windows-acpi_osi.html in the meantime. and try a supported ubuntu kernel, too.
[17:33] <Sven_vB> MibixFox, in case you hoped so, I won't go to the hassle of decoding short options.
[17:35] <Sven_vB> it's a shame mkfs.ext3 still doesn't have descriptively named long options even in bionic.
[17:36] <Sven_vB> I take that back, it was xenial I chacked
[17:36] <Sven_vB> *checked
[17:36] <shreds> I could try to downgrade kernels to Ubuntu’s last supported version. I’ll check the acpi debug too at this point I really want to find out what’s wrong. It used to work so well a few weeks ago
[17:37] <MibixFox> that seems right though
[17:37] <MibixFox> i specify the device location at the end like that, correct?
[17:37] <tomreyn> !bootlog | shreds: you may also want to set these (and remove 'quiet', add 'nosplash') in /etc/default/grub's GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT to get visible output when your system shuts down and boots up.
[17:39] <shreds> tomreyn: I already have them removed, I hate splash screens :P I like to see if something goes wrong on boot hehe
[17:39] <shreds> I don't have the info kernel param though, that's nice to know!
[17:39] <shreds> !kernelparm: debug systemd.log_level=info
[17:40] <tomreyn> !kernelparm
[17:41] <B|ack0p> hi
[17:41] <shreds> thx!
[17:43] <tomreyn> no need to *downgrade* the kernel, i'm just suggesting you also try the supported one, such as by making sure it's still installed, and choosing to boot it from the grub menu
[17:44] <entry_lvl_dev> is there a linux terminal program that can detect an multiple images in one image file and give the ability to crop them.
[17:44] <shreds> since I removed uswsusp I see PM: restoring the suspended image instead of s2disk but it still works
[17:45] <shreds> it still bugs out from time to time (same issue) but it still fully hibernate and resume half the time
[17:45] <entry_lvl_dev> for instance, lets say i have one png file that haves 4 pictures in them... can the program detect those 4 images and then give you the ability to crop all four out?
[17:45] <shreds> so only need to go bug hunting now! at least I got rid of extra utilities I didn't needed at all
[17:46] <shreds> tomreyn: I'm using ukuu to manage kernel versions, so reinstalling, switching, removing any versions is very easy to do, it's worth a try
[17:47] <tomreyn> shreds: i prefer simple shell scripts over somewhat complex third party C code for this task.
[17:47] <shreds> one question though: the logs I see when the system is hibernating and resuming: I don't find it in dmesg, etc
[17:47] <shreds> oh one thing weird in journal logs: Sep 17 13:45:37 xps kernel: Uhhuh. NMI received for unknown reason 20 on CPU 0.
[17:47] <shreds> Sep 17 13:45:37 xps kernel: Do you have a strange power saving mode enabled?
[17:47] <shreds> Sep 17 13:45:37 xps kernel: Dazed and confused, but trying to continue
[17:47] <tomreyn> !paste | shreds
[17:47] <shreds> sorry about that, I meant to paste a link and not the whole thing
[17:49] <tomreyn> dmesg only returns the currently running kernels' logs, and only those which fitted its buffer. at some point during shutdown / suspend / hibernation file systems are unmounted, which effectively prevents logs from getting written to disk.
[17:50] <tomreyn> so you may get to see more output on screen than end up on logs.
[17:50] <shreds> oh that's what I thought, makes sense
[17:58] <tomreyn> shreds: whats the context in which this NMI is triggered? is it while entering hibernation?
[18:00] <MibixFox> Sven_vB mke2fs -L R -m 0 -t ext4 -b 4096 -N 1000000 -E lazy_itable_init=0 -v /dev/DEVICEADDRESS ended up working :D
[18:01] <shreds> @tomreyn it was when booting up between 2 network/wifi related messages, seems unrelated but also another reason to debug for hardware issues like you suggested. I got hibernate to work a few times via echo shutdown > /sys/power/disk & echo disk > /sys/power/state but I'm still unsure what should be the proper command to execute. Does `sudo systemctl hibernate` make the same as manipulating /sys/power/disk & state? I
[18:01] <shreds> guess so?
[18:01] <shreds> I learnt so much about the kernel and systemd today, I hate to debug such things usually but I'm learning so much that I actually enjoy the ride hehe
[18:05] <tomreyn> shreds: "systemctl hibernate" is the command you should run to hibernate on 18.04 LTS and newer. altewrnatively triggering hibernation using the GUI also works, it should run the same command. as the systemd documentation i pointed you to earlier states, you should not write to /sys/power/* directly, but let system handle it.
[18:11] <shreds> tomreyn: ok thanks, I'm still going through all the docs I opened earlier, I'll get there eventually hehe I also read there's similar issues for NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD users which I have. Surely is related to hardware but why didn't this happen before? I'm also looking for any devices acting weird i.e. /proc/acpi/wakeup = https://termbin.com/utauu
[18:15] <tomreyn> shreds: you mentioned something which sounded like "before" was "before bios upgrade". if you think that's the case, maybe try downgrading the bios and compare (using the identical OS configuration and kernel version).
[18:22] <shreds> @tomreyn good point. so far it seems to work since I got rid of pm-utils/uswsusp. Now I even have better logging in dmesg. I have a hint pointing me hardware is messing with the hibernation: [ 2513.203392] ACPI: Hardware changed while hibernated, success doubtful! it still worked but it's the first time I see this message. Full logs here: https://termbin.com/ygys Getting closer and closer :D
[18:28] <tomreyn> shreds: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_make_ACPI_work#ACPI_S4_hardware_signature_mismatch lists a workaround to ignore the hardware signature mismatch.
[18:30] <tomreyn> shreds: in case you have a docking station, be sure to test hibernation first with the least complexity, which is without the dock, but with power cable plugged (ie. not running from battery).
[18:34] <alexandrdvorkin> hi guys
[18:35] <immu> hi
[18:37] <alexandrdvorkin> have a question I uninstalled the VB 6.10 and installed 6.0.12 but now my ubuntu installation is taken 6 gb not 3 gb I deleted the previous install of Ubuntu with ram -rf why ?
[18:37] <shreds> @tomreyn so far so good, I tested with or without the battery (I don't have a docking station), rebooted to a new session, etc and it works all of the time so far using only systemd directly :D :D :D I don't want to party just yet but hey that's progress! :D thanks a whole lot for your time and patience. I'll be reading the docs anyway just to make sure I'm better next time I need to debug something like that
[18:37] <shreds> so far so good without any downgrades whatsoever, let's hope it remains like that. Also it's FASTER than s2disk / uswsusp
[18:39] <alexandrdvorkin> is ubuntu install inside the VB6.0.12 ok to take 6Gb ?
[18:41] <tomreyn> shreds: you're welcome. looking at you latest log i notice your cpu temperature reaches 97°C, that's too hot. make sure you reduce the temperature soon.
[18:42] <tomreyn> (those readings could be wrong, of course, check also on  the bios setup in case it lists the values there)
[18:45] <lordcirth_> alexandrdvorkin, not sure I understand your question. You installed virtualbox in Ubuntu, or Ubuntu in virtualbox?
[18:46] <alexandrdvorkin> ubuntu in Vb
[18:46] <lordcirth_> alexandrdvorkin, ok, and what exactly is the problem? The virtual disk is growing?
[18:47] <alexandrdvorkin> I made 10gb for ubuntu now only 2.6 go is free after I made an install
[18:48] <shreds> tomreyn: that's weird since I juggle between 40C-80C when working with the machine. I rarely get to 100C but it's a known issues with XPS 9370 since they're too tiny for their CPUs to properly cool itself :-/ I noticed this too but touching the laptop with my bare hands don't make it seem THAT hot. That's weird, I wonder if these readings are right or not. I'll keep an eye open for this!
[18:48] <alexandrdvorkin> and I deleted the previous install of ubuntu that was installed with Vb6.0.10
[18:48] <alexandrdvorkin> so just an install taken up 6gb not 3gb as it says it should
[18:49] <CarlFK> I'm trying to make  .config/autostart/foo.desktop  - it 'works' (the thing runs) but it is ignoring Path=/home/runr/score/ (and yes to Type=Application here is the thing: http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/5Y4PGSNmfT/
[18:49] <CarlFK> bash because everyone has it and its shows what the curdir is
[18:51] <EriC^^> CarlFK: are you running it as the user runr?
[18:51] <alexandrdvorkin> is there another Ubuntu folder inside the Vb directory that I need to delete
[18:51] <CarlFK> EriC^^: 'yes' as in it runs when that user logs in
[18:53] <immu> hi EriC^^
[18:53] <EriC^^> hi immu
[18:53] <immu> remember me EriC^^ :)
[18:53] <EriC^^> yeah sure buddy :)
[18:53] <immu> can we install KDE in Ubuntu 19.04 along with gnome?
[18:54] <immu> side by side
[18:54] <lordcirth_> you can install kubuntu-desktop
[18:54] <immu> but won't it mess up gnome? or your default installation?
[18:54] <ioria> a bit
[18:55] <EriC^^> it might need some tweaking
[18:55] <immu> like?>
[18:55] <ioria> immu, your /etc/xdg/autostart  will be full of kde processes when you run gnome
[18:56] <lordcirth_> And some of your default applications might change.
[18:56] <EriC^^> not 100% sure but for me lubuntu + unity on 16.04 used to cause lubuntu notification style appearing in unity stuff like that
[18:56] <icharlz> Hello all, Ubuntu 18.04 ships with a bug (https://bugzilla.mindrot.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2810) I need to address.  Is there a safe upgrade other than the openSSH package for Cosmic?
[18:57] <immu> can't i containerze the kde install?
[18:57] <EriC^^> alexandrdvorkin: can you reiterate your problem?
[18:58] <EriC^^> immu: i dont think so, you could save the list of everything apt had to pull in and add in case you want to revert later i guess
[18:58] <ioria> immu, kde better to run alone in my op (you can always use kvm)
[18:58] <immu> ok
[18:59] <immu> i will stick with gnome for now :)
[18:59] <EriC^^> or possibly try it in a vm if you have one already, make a snapshot, install kde, then see how it goes
[18:59] <avanasear> that's a solid plan, using a vm to find out if you enjoy it first
[19:01] <immu> i know kde
[19:01] <immu> but i like gnome, before i use to like kde ,but i like the apps that KDE has
[19:04] <immu> goodnite foks
[19:17] <MibixFox> im confused why my OS on my server has this partition structure.... https://imgur.com/a/Yi2rF2Q
[19:17] <MibixFox> can i just resite my file system partition?
[19:17] <MibixFox> *resize
[19:18] <lordcirth_> MibixFox, you should be able to, but you should make sure you have backups first.
[19:19] <MibixFox> what is that extended partition for?
[19:20] <EriC^^> MibixFox: extended partition is where the logical partitions are
[19:20] <tds> MibixFox: what's the output of say `fdisk -l`? that extended partition is probably just a container for logical partitions, to let you go past the 4 partition limit from an mbr partitioned disk
[19:21] <EriC^^> MibixFox: it's not an actual partition that has a filesystem
[19:21] <MibixFox> yeah i mean its not actually taking up any space
[19:22] <EriC^^> MibixFox: what are you trying to do? integrate the free space into the OS?
[19:23] <MibixFox> https://pastebin.com/6SGF6eW8
[19:23] <MibixFox> yeah that is what i was thinking
[19:23] <MibixFox> I am going to migrate this single drive in to two new drives in RAID 1 in a few days though
[19:25] <blb4393> on my new computer the headphone jack plugged not recognized, so I have to switch manually. ubu 18.04. It never happened before so i'm kind of clueless. What could I check first?
[19:30] <MibixFox> EriC^^ I may just wait till I get the new drives installed and use Clonezilla to clone this over to the new RAID 1 array then try to expand it there if everything is working
[19:30] <MibixFox> easiest backup solution heh
[19:37] <bray90820_> How would I view what samb shares my 18.04 system has
[19:37] <ioria> net usershare info
[19:40] <bray90820_> ioria: That returns a blank line
[19:41] <ioria> bray90820_, then check your /etc/samba/smb.conf
[19:42] <bray90820_> Aaahhh there it is thanks
[19:42] <ioria> ok
[19:42] <bray90820_> Would I remove the entry in that file to remove the share
[19:43] <ioria> bray90820_, normally, yes
[19:43] <bray90820_> Ok thanks
[21:00] <nuala> should resolvconf be installed by default, because it isnt here and for few days i experience seriously trouble in hostname resolving, actually cant update or install anything right now, ping, ssh everything without domains seems to work flawlessly though
[21:03] <tomreyn> don't forget to provide your ubuntu version number
[21:04] <nuala> oh 18.04 sry…
[21:04] <tomreyn> resolvconf is in universe, it's not installed by default.
[21:05] <nuala> ok… so im running down a wrong track here, thx :)
[22:58] <bray90820> How well does ubuntu work on a touch screen laptop?
[22:59] <jeremyb> Depends on what laptop
[23:01] <bray90820> I was more asking how the user experience was with touch screens