[15:00] <bac> hi everyone
[15:00] <bac> #startmeeting
[15:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is bac.
[15:00] <bac> yay, mootbot is here
[15:00] <bac> who else?
[15:00] <allenap`> me
[15:00] <henninge> me
[15:00] <sinzui> ma
[15:00] <sinzui> me
[15:01] <sinzui> mo
[15:01] <sinzui> mu
[15:01] <danilo_> me
[15:01] <sinzui> my
[15:01] <bigjools> me
[15:01] <bac> gmb, intellec`, mars, EdwinGrubbs: ping
[15:01]  * bigjools calls troops
[15:01] <intellec`> me
[15:01] <EdwinGrubbs> me
[15:01] <al-maisan> me
[15:01] <mars> me
[15:01] <barry> lurk
[15:01] <mars> lol
[15:02] <bac> gary_poster: release-manager ping
[15:02] <adeuring> me
[15:02]  * bac understands gary_poster may be too busy
[15:02] <gary_poster> bac, yeah, a bit busy thanks
[15:02] <bac> [topic] agenda
[15:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[15:03] <bac> * Roll call
[15:03] <bac>  * Action items
[15:03] <bac>  * Styles of reviews: should that be up to the reviewer or is there a preferred style? [salgado]
[15:03] <bac>  * Conditional expressions - are they kosher, now that we're on Python2.5? [intellectronica]
[15:03] <bac>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[15:03] <bac> [topic] action items
[15:03] <allenap`> Apologies from deryck.
[15:03] <noodles775> me
[15:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[15:03] <bac> thanks allenap`
[15:03] <bac> * intellectronica to draft guidelines for drive-by cleanups
[15:03] <intellec`> intellec`: i have no idea who this intellectronica dude is
[15:04] <bac> intellec`: any progress?
[15:04] <intellec`> but i haven't done that. sorry
[15:04] <bac> intellec`:  would you like to commit to a date to do it or drop it from the list?
[15:04] <intellec`> i would even go as far as suggesting that we drop it, just to be realistic. it's been lingering for a while
[15:04] <bac> dropped
[15:04] <bac> * Gavin to start discussion on the ML about doctest size, refactoring, moving corner cases to unittests, etc
[15:05] <allenap`> I'm doing that as we speak, so keep it, but it will definitely be done later today.
[15:05] <bac> cool, thanks allenap`.  look forward to a lively discussion.
[15:05] <bac> * Gary to do timing tests for try/except, examine current usage of check_permission, and we'll discuss again next week.
[15:05] <salgado> me
[15:05] <gary_poster> no, sorry, and next week is team lead sprint
[15:06] <bac> gary_poster: ok, i'll note that and we can revisit in a few weeks
[15:06] <bac>  * Henning to update wiki page for pre-imp requirement for community contributions, etc.
[15:06] <bac> henninge: good news?
[15:06] <henninge> I did that as far as I could.
[15:06] <henninge> But I found out that we don't have a real reviewer documentation on dev.lp.net
[15:07] <henninge> a lot of pages would need to be migrated from launchapd.canonical.com and updated
[15:07] <henninge> I did not do that.
[15:07] <henninge> But I mentioned the requirement on https://dev.launchpad.net/PreMergeReviews
[15:07] <barry> some of those old pages are *really* out of date :/
[15:07] <bac> henninge: understood.  thanks.
[15:08] <bac> barry: yes, we need to do some wiki tending...
[15:08] <bac> i'll take a look at it this week.
[15:08] <bac> [action] bac to look at moving wiki pages to dev.lp.net and cleaning out the cruft
[15:08] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bac to look at moving wiki pages to dev.lp.net and cleaning out the cruft
[15:09] <bac> new topics
[15:09] <bac> * Styles of reviews: should that be up to the reviewer or is there a preferred style? [salgado]
[15:09] <bac> er
[15:09] <bac> [topic] * Styles of reviews: should that be up to the reviewer or is there a preferred style? [salgado]
[15:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  * Styles of reviews: should that be up to the reviewer or is there a preferred style? [salgado]
[15:09] <salgado> so, we have basically two styles of doing reviews:
[15:09] <salgado> 1. Comments go around the code they apply to: Reviewer includes the diff (often quoted by the email client) and each comment made by the reviewer goes around the code it applies to. This means there's context for each comment and the developer can quickly see where that code is.
[15:10] <salgado> 2. Top poster: Reviewer makes one or more comments at the top of the message, which may or may not contain the diff. Works well when the review points out *very* few things (or none), but as a developer I find it rather painful to go through a review containing just a list of bullet points with comments.
[15:10] <salgado> Developers always try hard to make the reviewers' lives easier, so when wearing our reviewer hats we should try and make their lives easier as well by including the diff for context and commenting around the specific parts the comment applies to.
[15:10] <gmb> me
[15:10] <gmb> Argh, sorry
[15:10]  * gmb was otp
[15:10] <intellec`> there's another style: irc discussion (at best pasted into the MP later)
[15:11] <salgado> should we have a policy on which style is preferred?
[15:11] <barry> and a mix of styles: general comments at the top, specific comments mixed in with code quotes
[15:11] <intellec`> i don't think we need to decide on a style. it's just important to remember that readability counts in reviews too
[15:12] <bigjools> also as jml reminded me recently, include the file names with the diff chunks when commenting on them
[15:12] <bac> i'll also note you cannot refer to line numbers in the diff as it is a moving target and gets updated when the branch is pushed
[15:12] <bigjools> intellec`: +1
[15:12] <bac> bigjools: +1
[15:12] <barry> the general rule is: make the reviewers lives easier.  this applies to the reviewer too <wink>.  iow, if you make the review hard for the dev to deal with, you're just making your own reviewing life harder (more questions, more back and forth, more context switching, etc.).  do what you need to do to give the dev a high fidelity review they can act fully on the first time through
[15:12] <bigjools> I don't think we need a policy, just some hints on making it easy to understand a review
[15:13] <bac> reviewees, at least those of us here, shouldn't be shy about pointing out unclear style to reviewers.
[15:13] <salgado> I brought this up because I find it really disturbing to go through a review which makes a bunch of points about the code but doesn't include the diff or anything for context
[15:13] <barry> i always keep the diff header for the file i'm reviewing, so it's easy to see.  i'll cut out code usually only on hunk granularity so it's easier to follow
[15:14] <barry> bac, salgado agreed
[15:14] <bac> thanks for bringing it up salgado.  i agree with bigjools that i don't think we need a new policy just awareness.
[15:15] <salgado> should we put this in a guidelines wiki page, to increase awareness, then?
[15:15] <bac> personally i've adopted the style of downloading the diff, doing the review in the editor of choice (cough, emacs) and pasting it to the page.  and i try to delete only on chunk boundaries as barry mentioned.
[15:15] <intellec`> i think that if you feel that we need to increase awareness an email to the list is in order
[15:15] <bac> salgado: sure.  would you do that?
[15:15] <salgado> sure, I can do it
[15:16] <bac> additional thoughts?
[15:16] <barry> as a dev, please have a conversation with your reviewer if you think the review did not provide the necessary level of context to help you resolve the issues
[15:16] <bac> [action] salgado to update the wiki page to encourage reviews with sufficient context
[15:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  salgado to update the wiki page to encourage reviews with sufficient context
[15:16] <salgado> barry, definitely
[15:17] <bigjools> reviewing is a two-way process
[15:17] <henninge> bac: I thouht ML discussion, not wiki page?
[15:17] <barry> big +1
[15:17] <barry> we're all here to learn, right?! :)
[15:17] <henninge> and: which wiki page? ;_)
[15:17] <bigjools> barry: I likez to lern
[15:17] <salgado> henninge, I'll create one and send an email about it to the list
[15:17] <bac> salgado: thanks!
[15:17] <henninge> salgado: great, thanks
[15:18] <bac> moving on...
[15:18] <bac> * Conditional expressions - are they kosher, now that we're on Python2.5? [intellectronica]
[15:18] <barry> bigjools: i gots lernt me good sometimes
[15:18] <intellec`> use(conditional_expressions) if conditional_expressions is kosher else not use(conditional_expressions)
[15:18] <bigjools> barry: git 'er dun
[15:18] <intellec`> i'm +1 on using them, as long as they're not nested or otherwise too complex. i'd like to get other reviewers' opinion and decide on an official policy
[15:18] <bac> bigjools: you've been in austin too long
[15:18] <bigjools> lol
[15:19] <barry> +1, tastefully, which will have to evolve.  my personal preference in general is that it makes code like this easier to read:
[15:19] <barry> if foo:
[15:19] <barry>     bar = 7
[15:19] <barry> else:
[15:19] <barry>      bar = 9
[15:19] <barry> becomes
[15:19] <barry> bar = (7 if foo else 9)
[15:19]  * gmb agrees with barry
[15:19] <barry> and always use parentheses, even if the syntax does not strictly require it, because it's more readable
[15:19] <al-maisan> this reminds me a bit of perl :P
[15:20] <intellec`> i also like the parentheses around the expression
[15:20] <barry> al-maisan: guido deliberately picked odd syntax so people wouldn't abuse it :)
[15:20] <mars> +1, trust the developers to use them well
[15:20] <al-maisan> well, he *did* succeed in that
[15:20] <barry> also, multiline form if the conditional is long:
[15:20] <mars> intellec`, "tasteful" is the right word :)
[15:20] <adeuring> +1
[15:20] <bigjools> I think it's fine, any readability issues will be picked up in review
[15:21] <barry> bar = (7 if foo.getSomeDataOutOfThere('baz') == 'frobnicate'
[15:21] <barry>           else 9)
[15:21] <mars> eewww
[15:21] <barry> but multiline is a 'hint' that it might be too complex <wink>
[15:21] <bac> barry: does muti-line make sense?  i think i'd rather see that using if-then
[15:21] <intellec`> so, basically, it's a yes, but like everything else we discuss it in reviews to make sure the result is readable? i like that
[15:21] <bigjools> and I expect we'll establish formatting conventions with a bit of use
[15:21] <mars> barry, I think IRC didn't treat that last example so well :)
[15:21] <intellec`> barry: i agree, multiline also doesn't improve much on the imperative form
[15:21] <henninge> intellec`: +1
[15:22] <barry> agreed.  i think it will be a evolution of team taste over time
[15:22] <barry> s/a/an/
[15:22] <bac> any thoughts on limiting conditional expressions to single line for readability?
[15:22] <bigjools> I say see how it goes
[15:22] <adeuring> bac: no "chaining" of conditional expressions
[15:22] <mars> -1 on limiting them.  Trust the devs.
[15:22] <barry> bigjools: +1
[15:22] <intellec`> bac: yes, i think that's a good rule
[15:23] <gmb> bac: +1
[15:23] <barry> adeuring: agreed on chaining.  that really reduces readability
[15:23] <bac> adeuring: +1
[15:23] <barry> bac: i have another 2.5ism for ya, when you're ready :)
[15:24] <bac> if we are in agreement (mostly) i'll add that to the wiki this week
[15:24] <bac> [action] bac to update coding guideline wrt conditional expressions
[15:24] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bac to update coding guideline wrt conditional expressions
[15:24] <bac> barry: yes?
from __future__ import with_statement</cough> should be legal too now
[15:25] <intellec`> barry: do transactions work with it? that's the classis use, no?
[15:25]  * salgado has done that already; legal or not
[15:25] <barry> context managers rock
[15:25] <mars> +1
[15:25] <barry> intellec`: i've had success with them, jtv doesn't like them for that purpose.  but that have lots of other uses
[15:26] <barry> just about any place you've got ugly try/finally's, you can write a simple context manager and use a with statement
[15:27] <bigjools> how about you take that to the ML with some examples?
[15:27] <barry> i've used them for stashing and restoring umasks, cwd, sys.stdout, etc. etc.  they work great with files which already support the context manager protocol
[15:27] <barry> bigjools: +1
[15:27] <bac> barry:  would you be willing to email the list with examples and update the coding guidelines?
[15:27] <barry> bac: yep
[15:27] <bac> [action] barry to school us on the proper use of 'with'
[15:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to school us on the proper use of 'with'
[15:28] <bac> that's it for listed items
[15:28] <bac> [action] * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[15:28] <MootBot> ACTION received:  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
[15:28] <bac> anyone have another topic?
[15:28] <bac> of course that should
[15:28] <bac> 've been a topic not an actoin
[15:29] <bac> going once
[15:29] <bac> twice
[15:29] <EdwinGrubbs> I have a question
[15:29] <bac> yes EdwinGrubbs
[15:29] <EdwinGrubbs> Should translations/translations.js put items in the Y.translations.translations namespace, or should we have a convention similar to python, where translations/__init__.js adds items to the Y.translations namespace?
[15:29]  * bigjools wonders how useful it would be to have a bzr plugin that creates new files with the correct copyright/licence at the top
[15:30] <mars> bigjools, I just use templates in my editor for that
[15:30] <bigjools> you still need to bzr add though?
[15:30] <mars> bigjools, but you could have a lint step: legal-lint!
[15:31] <bigjools> uff :)
[15:31] <bac> sinzui, mars, intellec`: any thoughs on EdwinGrubbs' question?
[15:31] <mars> bac, thinking
[15:32] <intellec`> i prefer not importing into __init__
[15:32] <intellec`> i find it hard to follow later on
[15:32] <mars> EdwinGrubbs, anything under the translations/ directory can add to the namespace and objects.  What we do now (and by YUI convention) is that the same named file includes everything rolled up.
[15:33] <EdwinGrubbs> mars: that should be added to the wiki then, if it is an existing yui convention
[15:34] <mars> intellec`, agreed.  I find the correct building of package interfaces using __init__ to be sticky enough already, without having to mold the Py conventions to JS
[15:34] <bac> EdwinGrubbs, mars: would one of you like to sort it out and document it?
[15:35] <EdwinGrubbs> bac: I can do it
[15:35] <bac> [action] edwin to document JS namespace issue
[15:35] <MootBot> ACTION received:  edwin to document JS namespace issue
[15:35] <bac> thanks edwin
[15:35] <bac> final thoughts?
[15:35] <bac> 3
[15:35] <bac> 2
[15:36] <bac> 1
[15:36] <bac> #endmeeting
[15:36] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:36.
[15:36] <bac> thanks for coming everyone
[15:36] <al-maisan> Thanks!
[15:36] <mars> thanks bac
[15:36] <barry> bac: thanks!
[15:36] <henninge> thank you bac
[15:37] <bac> thanks for "lurking" barry


[00:08] <hmagoo> hello, is it possible to keep a USB 2,0 external drive to be the same /dev regardless of what other media is connected to USB upon reboot?
[00:26] <hmagoo> question answered, in #ubuntu, ty
[04:08] <duelle> i'm trying to execute a program from the terminal and i keep getting "No such file or directory"
[04:08] <duelle> also, i can't cd into the folder and get the same error
[04:10] <duelle> apparently this happens with any file i create
[04:13] <mizery> I installed xubuntu on my roommate's computer.  Her computer has a Intel Corporation 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE Chipset Integrated Graphics Device.  Her desktop environment locks up randomly.  I am able to reboot her pc remotely via ssh.  I `tail -f /var/log/syslog` hoping to notice some kind of error that was output showing why the desktop environment was locking up, keyboard no longer functioning, but the log file showed nothing
[04:13] <__Techie__> duelle, make sure all files and folders have the apropriate permissions
[04:13] <mizery> Her computer suffered the same issue with ubuntu, linux mint, opensuse, mandriva and other distros too, so I'm certain it is related to her gpu/driver.
[04:14] <duelle> everything has read/write permissions
[04:14] <duelle> i've tried the folders that are automatically in the home folder (pictures, downloads, etc)
[04:14] <duelle> and can't cd into them either
[04:15] <duelle> everything looks fine in the file manager, though
[04:17] <__Techie__> so you are unable to cd into any folders?
[04:18] <Hermitcrab> Hi everyone!
[04:18] <Hermitcrab> New to Linux, cannot set the volume for sound, any tips?
[04:19] <duelle> okay, i've somehow got into the right folder but it still claims the file is not there
[04:20] <duelle> it seems when i open a terminal in my home folder i can't cd into any folder inside it
[04:20] <__Techie__> are you sure that its your own home folder
[04:22] <duelle> if i open a terminal in my home folder i get duelle@ubuntu:~$. if do cd /home/duelle i get the same and can't cd into any folder in /home/duelle
[04:22] <mizery> When my roommate's computer's desktop environment freezes (keyboard doesn't function, mouse clicking doesn't function, but can still move mouse cursor), how can I restart gdm instead of rebooting?  `restart gdm` doesn't seem to work.  I will post error next chance I have to execute it.
[04:22] <duelle> if i do cd /home/duelle/appfolder i get in to the folder but it still says the file i want to execute doesn't exist
[04:23] <__Techie__> mizery, enabling zapping in your xorg.conf would be the easiest wya of restarting GDM
[04:24] <__Techie__> how are you executing the application?
[04:24] <mizery> __Techie__: hmm, xubuntu doesn't come with an xorg.conf by default.  How can I create one besides writing from scratch?
[04:24] <__Techie__> mizery, not sure
[04:24] <duelle> sudo ./app
[04:24] <__Techie__> duelle, try sudo sh app
[04:25] <duelle> 1:  Syntax error: "(" unexpected
[04:26] <__Techie__> then theres a problem with the app
[04:26] <duelle> i guess i'll ask around their forums
[04:26] <duelle> thanks
[04:26] <__Techie__> you might be interested in the make command
[04:27] <mizery> __Techie__: 'zapping' is useless, because the keyboard doesn't function (e.g. caps lock doesn't toggle led light even)
[04:28] <mizery> __Techie__: the keyboard functions normally, but then the desktop environment fails, only the mouse cursor can be moved, no clicks work either
[04:28] <mizery> then==when
[04:28] <__Techie__> so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/DontZap is of now use then?
[04:33] <mizery> __Techie__: We'll see.  My roommate configured zapping and it works.  We will test it next time her keyboard doesn't function again.
[04:37] <__Techie__> you also might want to try a few different methods
[05:48] <mizery> How can I install libstdc++5 even though libstdc++6 is latest version?
[06:04] <mizery> I suppose it's not possible?
[06:19] <Balsaq> yo _Techie_ !
[06:32] <Balsaq> a pair a _Techie_ 's ?
[06:33] <mizery> __Techie__ / _Techie_ : When the keyboard locks up, ctrl+alt+backspace doesn't zap X as I expected.
[06:33] <Balsaq> who is the real _Techie_ ? yo _Techie!
[07:03] <mizery> Is there a gui to configure network ip address from xfce?  i can't find one.
[09:40] <Gotanks> hi
[09:41] <Gotanks> that is all
[12:09] <Alexandra> i need a random wallpapers desktop app
[12:09] <Alexandra> what app?
[12:10] <Alexandra> I use Xubuntu 9.10
[12:27] <Wistful> how do I change runlevels in Xubuntu ?
[12:30] <Divinus> Hi folks, anyone familiar with rigging older AMDs to work with the new 9.10 release? :)
[12:36] <CyberArch> when I do sudo service gdm stop it tells me initctl: unknown instance why ??
[17:24] <User3k> Did I finally get this set up right?
[17:25] <User3k> Cool, lol
[17:52] <Xion-M> Is it as exciting as you thought? heh.
[18:29] <flix> hi @ all
[18:29] <flix> i got a little problem and wonder if anybody can help me
[18:30] <Sysi> ask
[18:30] <flix> I am running 9.10 xubuntu on an ibm thinkpad (x31) and i am missing my windowbuttons when I max a window
[18:32] <flix> i mean the buttons in the upper right corner to max and min the windows
[18:34] <flix> i would be very glad if anybody has a clue how to get this fixed
[18:53] <Chri1> hey there
[18:53] <Xion-M> hello
[18:53] <Chri1> is this the right place for xubuntu support?
[18:54] <Xion-M> i believe so,
[18:55] <Chri1> as I installed xubuntu everything was fine with xfce
[18:56] <Chri1> but now xfce tries to run my display with a resolution of 1600*x - thats too much
[18:56] <Chri1> how can i "reset" the settings or something like that via terminal/console?
[18:57] <likemindead> Have you tried Display under Settings, Chri1?
[18:57] <Chri1> I can't use my graphical frontend because of that
[18:58] <Chri1> If I try to log in via graphical interface it doesn't work
[18:59] <Chri1> so I can't change my display under settings
[18:59] <likemindead> Ah.
[18:59] <likemindead> You need to create a xorg.conf it would seem.
[19:00] <Ov3rf10w> try to edit xorg.conf
[19:00] <Chri1> sorry, it is a little bit strange - I tried to log in again - and now - it works fine...
[19:01] <Chri1> no idea why..
[19:01] <Ov3rf10w> lol
[19:01] <Chri1> thanks a lot for your time
[19:01] <likemindead> Glad to help. What's your graphics hardware?
[19:02] <Chri1> you mean my display?
[19:03] <likemindead> No, your graphics card or chipset.
[19:03] <likemindead> Run "lspci" in a terminal.
[19:04] <Chri1> nVidia GeForce 2 MX
[19:04] <Chri1> is that what you mean?
[19:04] <Ov3rf10w> Chri1, do you have installed driver for your graph card?
[19:05] <likemindead> Yeah, Chri1. Did you install the "restricted" driver?
[19:05] <Chri1> where can I see if I have installed a driver?
[19:05] <Chri1> me not
[19:05] <Ov3rf10w> system -> hardware drivers
[19:05] <Chri1> perhaps the autoconifg at installation time
[19:06] <Chri1> no, no restricted driver
[19:07] <Chri1> or proprietary driver
[19:07] <Chri1> do you think I should install a nv driver?
[19:07] <Ov3rf10w> did you see any driver?
[19:07] <Xion-M> is there a way to open a folder a root, like /var/www without having to chmod it?
[19:07] <Ov3rf10w> in hardware drivers
[19:08] <Xion-M> as root*
[19:08] <Chri1> no, no drivers
[19:08] <Chri1> sudo
[19:08] <Chri1> @ xion
[19:08] <Xion-M> yes, but without terminal
[19:08] <Ov3rf10w> Xion-M, sudo thunar
[19:08] <Xion-M> ok,
[19:09] <Xion-M> thanks.
[19:10] <Chri1> @Ov3rf10w To install a new driver is not my first priority - if my x11/xfce just works (as it does at the moment)
[19:32] <flix> I am running 9.10 xubuntu on an ibm thinkpad (x31) and i am missing my windowbuttons when I max a window
[19:32] <flix> i mean the buttons in the upper right corner to max and min the windows
[19:32] <flix> i would be very glad if anybody has a clue how to get this fixed
[20:02] <_Techie_> flix, when you maximize windows, are the title bars still visible?
[20:03] <Xion-M> looks like he didnt want it fixed that bad.
[20:03] <_Techie_> nah
[20:03] <knome> who cares about working system anyway
[20:04] <Xion-M> ?
[20:04] <knome> sarcasm.
[20:04] <Xion-M> ahh
[20:04] <Xion-M> gotcha.
[20:13] <_Techie_> hrmm, im bored im gonna re install my graphcis drivers
[20:23]  * nwadawg bored, rewriting conkys
[20:28] <Xion-M> anyone use any lighter weight browser than firefox?
[20:28] <_Techie_> Xion-M, if you after a really light weight browser, try lynx
[20:29] <TheSheep> Xion-M: try chromium
[20:29] <Xion-M> isnt lynx pretty much text only?
[20:29] <TheSheep> Xion-M: https://launchpad.net/~chromium-daily/+archive/ppa
[20:31] <_Techie_> Xion-M, lynx is text only, i recently wok up so im kinda being a major douchebag
[20:35] <Xion-M> heh, its cool, at least you were honest
[20:35] <Xion-M> i got it anyways just to see how some stuff displayed
[20:36] <_Techie_> anyway, im gonna have a shower and once i get back ill be the regular techie that people know and love
[21:18] <rcscomp> I am setting up an xfce desktop.  Is there a panel applet for monitoring disk activity?  I have one for monitoring CPU activity that works well.


[08:51] <thorwil> does the application title ("Rhythmbox") in the new sound indicator menu have an action, or is it just a label?
[08:58] <klattimer> bratsche: I heard you fixed a bunch of bugs in indicators and the fixes are around somewhere it would probably be a good idea if I can test some things with them
[08:59] <klattimer> there's a bunch of bugs which I think might be fixed but it's almost impossible to tell
[08:59] <klattimer> this is the gtkmenu related stuff I think
[09:05] <vish> thorwil: it brings up rhythmbox
[09:06] <klattimer> is there a ppa I *should* be using?
[09:06] <thorwil> vish: good. that's what i would have proposed, otherwise. but i guess the track info is "dead"?
[09:06] <klattimer> hi mpt did you get my suggestions regarding ibus?
[09:06] <klattimer> have a chance to peruse them yet
[09:07] <vish> thorwil: yeah , the track does nothing..
[09:08] <mpt> klattimer, looking
[09:25] <seb128> klattimer, hey
[09:26] <seb128> klattimer, bratsche is probably sleeping right now, it's middle of his night, he should be up in some hours
[09:26] <seb128> klattimer, I don't think there is a ppa you should be using if you are on maverick no
[09:27] <klattimer> k
[09:27] <klattimer> right
[09:27] <seb128> maybe start on some other bugs until bratsche get up
[09:27] <klattimer> need to wait for the fixes made to gtk to come down then?
[09:27] <klattimer> yeah well, I've got a bunch of things i'm looking at
[09:28] <seb128> I would like to clarify with him and ted what's the status on those bugs as well
[09:28] <klattimer> but it's hard to see what's going to still be a problem after
[09:28] <seb128> let's grab them when they wake up later on
[09:28] <klattimer> :)
[09:28] <seb128> well you can probably work on the rhythmbox ctrl-W for example meanwhile I guess
[09:29] <seb128> davidbarth, did you review your team bugs to assign some extra ones to klattimer?
[09:50] <davidbarth> seb128: i've assigned him the keyboard indicator work, but no did not assign more than that
[09:51] <klattimer> I'm currently looking at the keyboard indicator stuff
[09:51] <seb128> davidbarth, I though that one was blocked on appindicator to support labels?
[09:51] <klattimer> I should really mark it in progress
[09:51] <seb128> we had a patch for it last cycle
[09:51] <seb128> did you read my comment on the bug?
[09:52] <klattimer> yeha
[09:52] <klattimer> just reading through the patch
[10:06] <mpt> klattimer, just replied.
[10:06] <klattimer> cool
[10:08] <klattimer> mpt: you seem to have missed the ibus related email I sent, with the attachment of filenames which would need themed icons
[10:09] <mpt> klattimer, I'm a user interface designer.
[10:09] <klattimer> oh... you filed it in 'i don't care'
[10:09] <klattimer> ?
[10:10] <klattimer> the question is about getting the art done I suppose
[10:10] <mpt> Sometimes I can tell which technical architecture is more likely to produce a good result, but I'm not an API designer or anything.
[10:10] <klattimer> if we get the art done, the code is fine
[10:10] <mpt> (The one time I did design an API, it was one that hopefully will never be implemented.;-)
[10:10] <klattimer> but it's pointless to do the code without the art
[10:11] <mpt> Ok, so if you want art organized, ivanka is the person to ask
[10:11] <klattimer> right
[10:11] <klattimer> I'll dig out the email and forward it
[10:11] <mpt> thanks
[10:12] <ivanka> mpt: what do I need to organise?
[10:12] <klattimer> ivanka: email address I'll send it over
[10:12] <klattimer> art for ibus icons
[10:12] <klattimer> currently they're ugly
[10:13] <ivanka> klattimer<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[10:13] <klattimer> and not styleable,
[10:14] <mpt> ivanka, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeyboardMenu#Icons%20for%20layouts%20and%20input%20methods
[10:20] <didrocks> ivanka: hey, who in your team should contact the telepathy guys for unity integration you talk to at GUADEC? was it done?
[10:21] <klattimer> sent
[10:23] <ivanka> didrocks: I was thinking David Siegel but he is at a sprint this week
[10:50] <klattimer> mpt: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libgnomekbd/+bug/546240 appears to conflict with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeyboardMenu#Icons%20for%20layouts%20and%20input%20methods
[10:51] <mpt> klattimer, hence, "(This algorithm needs experimental work from a designer and programmer working together.)" :-) Hi, I'm a designer, you're a programmer.
[10:52] <mpt> klattimer, so, I didn't realize that it was as simple as XX, XX2, XX3
[10:53] <mpt> klattimer, where do the actual letters come from? Are they recorded for each layout, or are they generated at runtime?
[10:55] <mpt> (I have "USA2" in my panel right now, but I had assumed that was pre-recorded)
[11:01] <klattimer> well, I think they're tied into what's shown in the keyboard layouts
[11:01] <klattimer> so probably generated at runtime
[11:01] <klattimer> e.g. if you reorder them then the numbering changes
[11:09] <klattimer> mpt: the previous assumption I made is not quite correct...
[11:10] <mpt> klattimer, the one about the letters, or the one about the numbering?
[11:10] <klattimer> it appears the whole order of the list and the connection between the current item and the displayed label become incoherent
[11:10] <klattimer> when you re-order them
[11:10] <klattimer> :(
[11:10] <mpt> Welcome to X keyboard hell
[11:10] <klattimer> e.g. I have USA and UK mac and UK added
[11:11] <klattimer> if I reorder them USA becomes UK and UK mac and UK stay the same
[11:11] <klattimer> but the label USA is tied to the UK layout
[11:11] <klattimer> ...
[11:11] <klattimer> oh dear :/
[11:12] <klattimer> but anyway if I log out and back in, they layout numbering changes after a reordering
[11:12] <mpt> heh
[11:13] <klattimer> so it is generated on the fly
[11:13] <klattimer> so in theory what we want is to be able to overlay the text atop an icon
[11:13] <klattimer> ... this will be hard because of the colours of the underlying icon
[11:13] <klattimer> maybe a 0.5px stroke is necessary to create a visual separation
[11:14] <mpt> klattimer, what I suggest is just a plain color rectangle (using the text color), with the text overlaid in the panel color. E.g. in Ambiance it would be black letters on a white background.
[11:15] <mpt> Meanwhile: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeyboardMenu?action=diff&rev2=10&rev1=9
[11:54] <ivanka> hi Vish
[11:55] <vish> ivanka: hey
[11:55] <ivanka> vish: how's things?
[11:55] <vish> ivanka: going fine , sorta :)
[11:56] <vish> ivanka: looks like we are about to hit 50 bugs fixed for this cycle and there are around 20 fix committed
[11:57] <vish> we need to get them uploaded before UIF ..
[12:09] <vish> yup 51 !
[12:13] <klattimer> davidbarth: just responded to your email
[12:13] <klattimer> I really think we can do this :D
[12:22]  * thorwil first replies to sender, not list, then replies on list to the wrong message. sometimes the user is the problem
[12:58] <davidbarth> mpt: the "symbol containing 2 symbols" is too custom for a generic protocol like app-indicator; and we're not going to do arbitrary icons that we can't style
[12:59] <davidbarth> mpt: but klattimer suggestion to have an inverted rendering for the label sounds more generic
[12:59] <davidbarth> mpt: could you get otto to check the style for that inverted flag: boundaries, padding constraints; what to do when the indicator is selected with the mouse, etc.?
[13:00] <klattimer> davidbarth: it was mpt's suggestion, I was just wanting to clarify
[13:00] <mpt> davidbarth, those same icons need to be used for the items inside the menu, too. If you fake them using labels in the title, you won't be able to replicate them easily inside the menu.
[13:01] <davidbarth> then, why we don't pre-generate them?
[13:01] <mpt> davidbarth, that's fine by me. The only drawback is that they wouldn't follow the theme font, but that'd hardly be noticable.
[13:03] <davidbarth> mpt: yeah, anyway they're a bit special, the label is meant to represent somehing "keyboard", not necessarily identical as what you display on the screen
[13:03] <davidbarth> as -> to
[13:03] <klattimer> mpt there isn't a menu currently for keyboard indicator
[13:03] <klattimer> click it and it changes
[13:03] <klattimer> or well, there is a right click menu
[13:03] <klattimer> dur,,, missed that
[13:03] <davidbarth> klattimer: then you can apply the standard guildeines
[13:03] <davidbarth> for porting app. indicators
[13:04] <klattimer> however there are no icons in the menu at all
[13:04] <davidbarth> ie, turn the toggle behavior into a menu option
[13:04] <mpt> davidbarth, sorry, I don't understand
[13:04] <davidbarth> i'm sure it's on the app. indicator page
[13:05] <davidbarth> mpt: i meant, the font used to represent "keys" that this keyboard indicator represents doesn't necessariliy have to be the same as the font used to "print" text on the display
[13:05] <davidbarth> mpt: they are "semantically" different to me
[13:05] <davidbarth> one is the font used for "output", while the keyboard indicator could use a distinct font to represent elements that are related to the input system
[13:06] <davidbarth> or more simply
[13:06] <davidbarth> the font used for physical labels on your keyboard is usually different from the font you're using on your screen, at least the size is different, if not the font itself
[13:07] <klattimer> davidbarth: you've lost me too
[13:16] <LaserJock> if I remove the Me & Messaging menus is there any harm done to indicator-session or notifications?
[13:23] <mpt> davidbarth, exactly, it's not important that it be the same font.
[13:38] <bratsche> Hey klattimer
[13:38] <klattimer> hey
[13:38] <bratsche> How's it going dude?
[13:38] <klattimer> hanging in there :)
[13:39] <klattimer> was wondering when these gtkmenu fixes are likely to land in maverick
[13:39] <bratsche> Which fixes are these?
[13:39] <klattimer> it's making testing a lot harder not knowing what does work and what doesn't
[13:39] <klattimer> various signal issues related to bluetooth and others
[13:40] <bratsche> Oh right.. I think sense made this patch yesterday.
[13:40] <sense> Any problems?
[13:40] <bratsche> https://code.launchpad.net/~sense/gtk/ubuntu/+merge/31617
[13:41] <bratsche> No, I think we just need to get it into a place where klattimer can use it.  So we need to get it into a PPA until we can get it in Meerkat.
[13:42] <bratsche> seb128, can we put this in the desktop PPA since that's where you were putting my other patches?
[13:43] <seb128> hey bratsche
[13:43] <seb128> yes, sure
[13:43] <sense> good
[13:43] <seb128> bratsche, does anybody plan to try to get that one upstream?
[13:43] <seb128> sense, thanks for your work on that
[13:43] <seb128> does it fix any current open bug? just for changelog reference
[13:44] <sense> seb128: You're welcome!
[13:44] <bratsche> Since it's menu related maybe it would be better if someone other than me tries. :)
[13:44] <sense> seb128: it partially fixes the bug that prevented me from writing an AppInd for Deluge.
[13:44] <seb128> the bug is listed on the review page so ignore that question ;-)
[13:44] <sense> good
[13:44] <sense> seb128: next step is to fix the AppInd part: i.e. make it use the correct signal
[13:44] <seb128> sense, since you wrote it, can you send it to GNOME as well?
[13:45] <sense> seb128: Sure.
[13:45] <seb128> thanks
[13:45] <sense> I hope to be able to fix the AppInd part of the bug today as well, so klattimer has actually something working.
[13:45] <seb128> nice
[13:45] <sense> tomorrow morning I'll be leaving for a two weeks holiday, you see. ;)
[13:46] <seb128> enjoy your holidays!
[13:46] <sense> thanks
[13:46] <bratsche> Nice.
[13:47] <bratsche> sense: I'd recommend not linking up to Ubuntu bugs when you file it upstream.
[13:47] <sense> bratsche: Why?
[13:47] <bratsche> Just post a bug saying you want to be able to find out when submenus are being attached and add a patch.
[13:47] <sense> ok
[13:47] <bratsche> sense: Just my experience in posting bugs to upstream since I joined Canonical. :)
[13:48] <sense> aw
[13:48] <sense> Will do it!
[13:48] <bratsche> You can do it however you like, this is just my suggestion. :)
[13:50] <klattimer> well this all sounds dandy
[13:51] <klattimer> what's the ppa address?
[13:51] <bratsche> I think it's this one: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/+archive/ppa
[15:56] <Cimi_> MacSlow: raico blur rocks ;)
[15:56] <Cimi_> I'm adding blur capabilities in murrine
[15:56] <Cimi_> the new theme will rock
[15:57] <MacSlow> Cimi_, the power of OpenSource :)))
[15:57] <MacSlow> Cimi_, glad you like it!
[15:57] <bratsche> Cimi_: Do you have the desktop PPA installed?
[15:57] <Cimi_> bratsche: I'm in lucid now
[17:35] <davidbarth> klattimer: hey, is all clarified btw now on app. indicator? ie the pre-generation of icons (for both radiance and ambiance btw)?
[17:35] <davidbarth> klattimer: ping me if there is still something that is blocking
[17:35] <sense> jcastro: I won't be able to finish the bug. I'm stuck at the segfault issue and have a few other things I want to do today. I've attached the code I've got so far to bug #608219 and bug #584669, together with some instructions.
[17:35] <davidbarth> klattimer: i haven't been able to triage more tasks for you today yet
[17:38] <jcastro> sense: ok I'll send those along to klattimer
[17:38] <jcastro> thanks for your work on them!
[17:39] <sense> Thank you for looking after them!
[17:40] <jcastro> davidbarth: is there a group I can be put in to enable assigning bugs to klattimer for ayatana-related gear?
[17:40] <jcastro> that way I don't have to ask you for each one
[18:09] <davidbarth> jcastro: let me check that, but yeah, that'd be cool, because i'm sprinting this week, and next week as well so that won't really help