[12:10] <mdz> jbailey: how is EarlyUserspace coming along?
[12:10] <robertj> mdz: do you know if last year's bounty budget rolled over into this year?
[12:11] <surak> mdz: it seems the one who's not working here is me.
[12:12] <kiko> huh?
[12:13] <bluefoxicy> does OOo2 crash in breezy if you touch the menus
[12:13] <surak> kiko: we were talking on pvt. He corrected me, and I said that it didn't seem to work. But what does not work seems to be my brain after all that coffee...
[12:13] <kiko> heh :)
[12:14] <ogra> bluefoxicy, probably, its breezy :-P
[12:15] <mdz> robertj: not exactly, why?
[12:15] <ogra> bluefoxicy, things are supposed to crash from time to time for your entertainment :)
[12:15] <robertj> mdz: just haven't heard alot about bounties
[12:15] <mdz> surak: I am glad that it is working for you now
[12:15] <mdz> robertj: you'll hear a lot more about bounties this week
[12:15] <robertj> good
[12:15] <mdz> soon after I dig myself out of my email pit
[12:15] <mdz> robertj: if there's something specific you'd like to work on, contact me at any time
[12:16] <robertj> hehe, no there's not
[12:16] <robertj> I was just curious
[12:16] <robertj> I stick to php stuff mostly
[12:16] <ogra> bluefoxicy, which arch is that ?
[12:16] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  I need to write a resume
[12:16] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  386
[12:16] <ogra> hmm..
[12:17] <ogra> bluefoxicy, OOo 1.x too ?
[12:18] <ogra> surak, lol.... record it and sell the tapes if it worked ;)
[12:19] <surak> who on those tv shows care if something works or not? I'll sell it anyway! :-)
[12:19] <ogra> heh
[12:20] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  don't have 1.x
[12:20] <ogra> bluefoxicy, hmm but it could be a fallback if its urgent....
[12:20] <bluefoxicy> ogra:  it doens't have opendoc format
[12:20] <ogra> oh, ok
[12:21] <bluefoxicy> sometimes you just want it to look nice.
[12:30] <Keybuk> surely getting e-mails from @nid.gov is better? :p
[12:31] <Burgundavia> can someone take a look at this bug? I don't think the use meant to assign it to themselves
[12:31] <Burgundavia> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11122
[12:35] <Nafallo> xorg_6.8.2-18 will need a kick to build?
[12:39] <seb128> 'night mvo
[12:39] <Nafallo> mvo: night :-)
[12:40] <mvo> night guys :)
[12:42] <surak> mdz: Where are you?
[12:42] <surak> I mean, your geographic location
[12:42] <kiko> surak, LA.
[12:42] <surak> ok
[12:42] <surak> tks Kiko
[12:44] <Nafallo> Baby: wb! :-)
[12:44] <Baby> thanks Nafallo :))
[12:47] <mdz> surak: as kiko says, I'm in LA (UTC-7)
[12:47] <surak> Kamion gave me the impression I'm always late to talk with him :-) and told me you would be in a better timeframe.
[12:50] <jordi> kiko: I did it man
[12:50] <jordi> I DID IT
[12:51] <doko> jordi: photos!
[12:52] <kiko> jordi!
[12:52] <kiko> JORDI!
[12:52] <kiko> woooo!
[12:52] <jordi> doko: hmm, none of the race with me right now, my flatmate has them
[12:52] <surak> ?
[12:53] <kiko> jordi, tell us all about this
[12:53] <jordi> I have a sexy one of the prize I got tho
[12:53] <jordi> kiko: I have a blog entry ready to be scp'd!
[12:54] <kiko> do it
[12:54] <ajmitch> jordi: you live!
[12:55] <jordi> ajmitch: I actually have no pain in my legs todayh. It's pretty weird
[12:56] <ajmitch> well done :)
[12:57] <jordi> let me boot that lappy to get the story out
[12:57] <jordi> and the pic from the cam
[12:57] <jordi> I also fixed a RC bug for Sarge yesterday
[12:57] <jordi> introduced a new one, which I just fixed.
[12:57] <jordi> Isn't that great
[01:03] <mdke> ogra, still up? if i know you...
[01:04] <lamont> ENOMVI
[01:04] <lamont> MVO even
[01:04] <lamont> aptitude doesn't like 64-bit architectures
[01:05] <lamont> Build-Depends: mozilla-dev (<< 2:<IP_ADDRESS>)
[01:05] <lamont> GAH
[01:06] <lamont> enigmail has bad buildd-epends
[01:10] <doko> lamont: mozilla did FTFBS on ia64
[01:10] <lamont> doko: the issue is that enigmail build-depends on a version older than that currently found in the archive.
[01:12] <doko> no, just a rebuild, libarts name did change
[01:12] <doko> fixing ...
[01:13] <lamont> kewlness
[01:15] <Nafallo> lamont: could xorg be kicked or shall I try to see if it builds locally first?
[01:15] <lamont> Nafallo: it is ftbfs
[01:16] <Nafallo> lamont: even since libx{au,dmcp} is rebuilt?
[01:16] <lamont> hrm...  /me kicks it for giggles
[01:16] <Nafallo> :-)
[01:22] <jordi> howl is non-free and evil :)
[01:22] <robertj> jordi: what's the blessed equivanelt then ;)
[01:23] <jordi> robertj: the world awaits your contribution!
[01:23] <jordi> none yet afaik.
[01:30] <Nafallo> lamont: kicked locally to :-)
[01:51] <Nafallo> lamont: atleast it
[01:51] <Nafallo> damn enter
[01:52] <Nafallo> lamont: atleast it's not the same builderror ;-)
[01:52] <lamont> Nafallo: heh
[01:54] <mdz> amu: what does "final package" mean in your qt-x11-free changelog?
[01:57] <amu> good question, right, would be better to put all changes visiable
[02:00] <Nafallo> good night all!
[02:31] <lamont> back later
[02:38] <zul> holy crap my internet connection is slow
[02:38] <KaiL_> somebody should look a bit at "installation without any network configuration", there seam to be billions of bugs
[02:50] <surak> night
[02:51] <AndyFitz> night
[03:03] <AndyFitz> g'day bradb
[03:05] <bradb> hi
[03:57] <jsgotangco> hello
[04:02] <KaiL_> daniels: you duped 11127 to 1421, which seams to be about fallback for no ddc infos
[04:02] <KaiL_> that's wrong, 11127 is about screens, who really want such stipid resolutions
[04:02] <daniels> KaiL_: it's not wrong at all
[04:02] <daniels> KaiL_: if we get 60Hz, it's because we had to guess at a refresh rate
[04:02] <KaiL_> nop
[04:02] <daniels> and that's going to happen because we're on amd64, and have no way to do DDC probing there yet
[04:03] <daniels> unless you meant something other than what you wrote in the bug report
[04:03] <KaiL_> what I mean is on i386
[04:03] <KaiL_> some screens (as my 15" CRT here) really list "1280x1024@60Hz" in ddcprobe
[04:04] <daniels> right
[04:04] <KaiL_> and that get's used
[04:04] <daniels> not usually
[04:04] <KaiL_> I had "more than enough" such in #kubuntu ;)
[04:04] <daniels> xresprobe only gives you the *second* highest resolution
[04:05] <daniels> so if 1280x1024@60 is the highest and 1024x768@80 is the second-highest, it'll use 1024x768@80
[04:05] <KaiL_> and this second is what get's used?
[04:05] <daniels> if 1280x1024@80 is the highest and 1280x1024@60 is the second-highest, it'll use 1280x1024@80
[04:05] <daniels> yes
[04:05] <KaiL_> then  why I get 1280@60Hz? :)
[04:12] <KaiL_> does the 1x1 tell me something interesting in xresprobe?
[04:12] <daniels> KaiL_: how did you configure your server?
[04:12] <daniels> 1x1 tells you things went really, really badly
[04:12] <KaiL_> nothing manually
[04:13] <KaiL_> oh
[04:14] <KaiL_> like "monitor sends nonsence"?
[04:16] <Burgundavia> m vogt is mvo no?
[04:16] <crimsun> yes.
[04:17] <Burgundavia> ok, I don;t see him here
[04:17] <Burgundavia> ok, dumb question. Is wxpython in Ubuntu/Debian linked against GTK1.x?
[04:17] <daniels> KaiL_: either that or my regexp is broke, yeah
[04:19] <crimsun> Burgundavia: two different answers.
[04:19] <KaiL_> hmm, but ddcprobe find's something
[04:19] <crimsun> Burgundavia: in Ubuntu Hoary, they're built against gtk2
[04:19] <crimsun> Burgundavia: wxwidgets 2.5 has been removed from Debian
[04:20] <KaiL_> lol, "timing: 1280x1024@75 (VESA)"
[04:20] <crimsun> Burgundavia: in Ubuntu and Debian both, wxwindows (2.4) is built against 1.2
[04:20] <Burgundavia> ah
[04:20] <Burgundavia> so the program needs to link against 2.5?
[04:21] <crimsun> Burgundavia: if you're using wxpython2.5.3, yes
[04:22] <Burgundavia> ok
[04:22] <Burgundavia> hmm
[04:23] <ajmitch> 2.4 & 2.5 can have a slightly differentA PI in some places
[04:23] <KaiL_> daniels: there we have the 1x1: "dtiming 1x1@642500"
[04:24] <KaiL_> somebody should send MS 100 firmware coders - after one week they have destroyed windows totally
[04:25] <Burgundavia> are we talkign python 2.5? the dev version?
[04:26] <KaiL_> daniels: so your regex isn't broken, the firmware coder was just an idiot
[04:27] <crimsun> Burgundavia: I was talking about wxwidgets 2.5 (compiled against gtk2 in Ubuntu) and wxpython 2.5
[04:27] <daniels> KaiL_: oh dear
[04:27] <crimsun> Burgundavia: the latter can be made to link against any version of python, though by default that should be 2.4
[04:28] <daniels> i should blacklist that
[04:28] <KaiL_> the problem why xresprobe lists 1280 (the highest..) isn't solved
[04:32] <Burgundavia> crimsun, the problem is that then wxpython stuff looks like ass, becuase it is gtk1.2
[04:32] <crimsun> Burgundavia: err, in Ubuntu Hoary/universe?
[04:32] <Burgundavia> yes
[04:33] <crimsun> Burgundavia: hmm, so apt-cache depends must be lying
[04:33] <Burgundavia> both hoary and breezy show the issue
[04:43] <Burgundavia> crimsun, so is the bug in the application or in wxwidgets?
[04:44] <crimsun> Burgundavia: afaict, wxpython 2.5 links against wxgtk 2.5 which links against gtk 2
[04:44] <crimsun> Burgundavia: what application?
[04:45] <Burgundavia> londonlaw, only available in breezy
[04:46] <crimsun> there's nothing wrong
[04:46] <crimsun> londonlaw links against wxpython 2.4, which links against wxwindows 2.4, which links against gtk 1.2
[04:47] <crimsun> heh
[04:48] <Burgundavia> I think I noticed it with jsconfigurator as well
[04:48] <crimsun> as soon as Ron pushes wxwidgets 2.6 into Sid/experimental, it's time to ask for a sink
[04:48] <crimsun> s/sink/sync
[04:48] <Burgundavia> sinking feeling?
[04:48] <Burgundavia> is there actual code changes to programs to make them work with 2.5 instead of 2.4?
[04:49] <crimsun> usually no
[04:49] <crimsun> 2.5 is compiled with abi compat with 2.4
[04:49] <Burgundavia> so 2.5 does the messy work of moving from 1.x to 2.x?
[04:50] <crimsun> for gtk, yes, but don't use 2.5 or Ron will scream at you
[04:50] <Burgundavia> ok, why is that?
[04:50] <crimsun> particularly since he has been hassled about 2.6 enough
[04:50] <crimsun> that and the license issue that caused 2.5 to be ripped out of Debian
[04:50] <Burgundavia> so once 2.6 comes out, we are going to have to manually rebuild all python packages to use 2.6?
[04:51] <Burgundavia> s/python/wxwidget
[04:51] <crimsun> no, because that's built as part of wxwidgets 2.6 source
[04:51] <crimsun> oh, packages that depend on wxpython?
[04:51] <crimsun> probably
[04:51] <Burgundavia> but apps like londonlaw?\
[04:51] <Burgundavia> ok
[04:51] <Burgundavia> sign me up!
[04:52] <ajmitch> 2.5 isn't always compatible with 2.4, I've found
[04:52] <crimsun> ajmitch: sadly
[04:52] <Burgundavia> ok, so there will be some upstream development needed
[04:52] <Burgundavia> what was the licence issue?
[04:52] <crimsun> plus there's talk of introducing an abi-incompat change into 2.6 (!)
[04:53] <crimsun> so some people are hassling for a version bump to 2.8 (!)
[04:53] <crimsun> it's all quite mad
[04:54] <crimsun> Burgundavia: Debian#305300
[04:54] <Burgundavia> ok, so a quite rundown. 2.6 is coming into debian and we will need to rebuild packages against it to get gtk2.x stuff. 2.5 didn't get into debian becuase of license issues.
[04:57] <crimsun> it was in Debian, but it will not be in Sarge
[04:58] <Burgundavia> ok
[06:39] <infinity> lamont : What was broken with samba?
[06:40] <lamont> dpkg love
[06:41] <lamont> DEB_BUILD_GNU_TYPE      := $(shell dpkg-architecture -qDEB_BUILD_GNU_TYPE| sed 's/linux$$/linux-gnu/')
[06:41] <lamont> ,,,
[06:41] <lamont> and then fix the if below to look for linux-gnu
[06:42] <lamont> that's the current "traditional" fix for things that have suddenly stopped delivering lots of pieces of themselves
[06:43] <infinity> lamont : Have you uploaded that fix yet?
[06:43] <lamont> if you're lucky, the build fails.  If you're not, then the package does a good job of only deciding what should be there once...
[06:43] <lamont> just barely
[06:43] <infinity> Ahh, kay.
[06:43] <infinity> Did you merge with Debian at the same time?
[06:43] <lamont> uh.... 34.0.14a-1ubuntu2
[06:43] <lamont> what's debian ahve?
[06:43] <infinity> Kay, no then. :)  I'll merge later.
[06:43] <dilinger> infinity: hey, is the apache2 pcre patch that you backported from 2.1 online anywhere?
[06:44] <infinity> (Just one revision higher in Debian, but it's an icky bug)
[06:44] <infinity> dilinger : The one from HEAD, or ours?
[06:44] <lamont> infinity: and we need to pester keybuk and find out what verbage to file in the bug in debian for fixing it...)
[06:44] <infinity> dilinger : Ours is obviously online, in the source package.
[06:44] <dilinger> infinity: i was hoping for a link that i could put in the upstream bug report
[06:45] <dilinger> 'cause people are reopening the bug
[06:45] <dilinger> linking to a diff.gz is suboptimal
[06:45] <lamont> infinity: you should drop that on patches.ubuntu.com
[06:45] <infinity> Ahh.  Well, extract it and put it in your people.d.o space, then.
[06:45] <dilinger> infinity: then it doesn't stay up-to-date
[06:46] <infinity> dilinger : How up-to-date does it need to be?... It's tracking a stable release.
[06:46] <lamont> s/lunch/launch/
[06:46] <infinity> Mmm... lunchpad.
[06:46] <lamont> mirror-missing | wc -l
[06:46] <lamont> 150 :-(
[06:46] <infinity> dilinger : I need to forward-port my backport back to HEAD anyway, and submit my changes to Joe for 2.1
[06:46] <infinity> dilinger : If you're feeling bored...
[06:47] <infinity> *cough*
[06:47] <dilinger> infinity: dude, i'm done w/ that crap ;p
[06:47] <lamont> if someone is really bored, I could use gcj support in ccache
[06:47] <infinity> dilinger : Heh.  Fair enough.   I gave him credit, but it's licensed under the GPL and his code didn't actually have a license with it.
[08:45] <pitti> Morning
[08:46] <mvo> morning pitti
[08:49] <bob2> daniels: fontconfig.org seems fucked.
[08:49] <bob2> (dns-wise)
[08:50] <bob2> hah, which isn't so surprising when it only has one dns server
[08:50] <daniels> that server should be alright though (gabe)
[08:50] <bob2> Name Server:NS.KEITHP.COM
[08:50] <bob2> (which is unreachable)
[08:50] <daniels> oh dear, no
[08:50] <daniels> right
[08:50] <daniels> yeah, that's the end of his DSL line
[08:51] <bob2> hah
[08:51] <\sh> morning gentlemen
[08:51] <fabbione> hey pitti
[08:52] <fabbione> pitti: rumors are that one of the security fixes is making OOPSorama on hoary :/
[08:52] <pitti> fabbione: sounds like fun
[08:52] <fabbione> but i can't see how and why. nobody gave me info yet (other than rumors)
[08:52] <daniels> fabbione: did you see the abi thing too?
[08:52] <pitti> fabbione: bah, hardware problem
[08:52] <fabbione> daniels: yes. the abi is ok
[08:53] <daniels> fabbione: ok, cool
[08:53] <fabbione> daniels: the check is done automatically at build time, otherwise FTBFS
[09:20] <pitti> trulux: when you are here, please ping me back, we need to talk about the patch again
[09:27] <Treenaks> pitti: have you packaged the LUKS tools already (or: are you planning to?)
[09:35] <pitti> Treenaks: dist-upgrade, plugin your encrypted stick and watch the magic happen... :-)
[09:35] <pitti> Treenaks: i. e. yes
[09:35] <Treenaks> pitti: I mean the "other side"
[09:36] <Treenaks> pitti: i.e.: how do I create an encrypted stick :)
[09:36] <pitti> Treenaks: cryptsetup has the LUKS extension, pmount calls it transparently, and g-v-m asks you for a passphrase and forwards it to pmount
[09:36] <pitti> Treenaks: ah
[09:36] <pitti> Treenaks: there is not yet a GUI tool for that
[09:36] <pitti> Treenaks: sudo cryptsetup luksFormat /dev/foo
[09:36] <Treenaks> pitti: ok, "cryptsetup has the LUKS extension" was the missing piece of my puzzle
[09:36] <pitti> Treenaks: sudo cryptsetup luksOpen /dev/foo mystick
[09:37] <Treenaks> thanks :)
[09:37] <pitti> Treenaks: sudo mkfs.XXXX /dev/mapper/foo
[09:37] <pitti> ok
[09:37] <pitti> Treenaks: I recently discovered that we don't even have a GUI tool to format things other than floppies
[09:38] <pitti> Treenaks: somebody should write a nice pygtk thingy which calls mkfs.* on a device and supports encryption
[09:38] <Burgundavia> pitti, why not extend the floppy formatter?
[09:38] <Burgundavia> make it generic
[09:39] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: skipping "known" (i.e. mounted partitions), probably?
[09:39] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: and using HAL to get a list of "formatable" devices?
[09:39] <Burgundavia> yes
[09:39] <jsgotangco> floppy formatter died on me (i don't have a floppy drive on my laptop)
[09:40] <Burgundavia> as formatting a floppy is really the same operation as formatting a stick, from the users perspective
[09:40] <Treenaks> Burgundavia: clearing a CD-RW might as well be the same too
[09:40] <Burgundavia> good point
[09:41] <Treenaks> from a user pov
[09:41] <pitti> well, if the interface is tweaked a bit to just display the density dropdown if you actually have a floppy, that might be easier, yes
[09:41] <Burgundavia> it should automagically figure out the density and type
[09:41] <pitti> Treenaks: n-cd-burner, and probably other tools as well, automatically clean a cd-rw
[09:42] <Treenaks> pitti: HAL is pretty clear on that right? ('this is a floppy drive' etc0
[09:42] <pitti> Burgundavia: well, I can't run Ubuntu on machines that still have low-density drives anyway :-)
[09:42] <Treenaks> pitti: I have a 5.25" floppy drive -- still works
[09:42] <jsgotangco> wow
[09:42] <Burgundavia> for floppies that we can't figure it out, then it should offer the most common but have a list of the others
[09:43] <Treenaks> jsgotangco: I even have floppies.. we need a GWBASIC compatible BASIC interpeter! :)
[09:43] <pitti> Treenaks: "  storage.drive_type = 'floppy'  (string)"
[09:43] <Treenaks> pitti: so that's easy
[09:43] <pitti> Treenaks: but no hint about the size
[09:44] <Treenaks> pitti: hm.. that should probably be added then?
[09:44] <pitti> Treenaks: btw, if you test encrypted stuff, you can't unmount them properly in gnome yet
[09:44] <pitti> Treenaks: you have to use pumount for now, I only uploaded g-v-m yesterday night
[09:44] <Treenaks> pitti: I have to use pumount anyway, because hald crashes when I plug in my GPS
[09:45] <pitti> ah, that bug...
[09:45] <Treenaks> the 239-entry backtrace, yes :)
[09:46] <pitti> Treenaks: it seems easy to fix, just no time yet...
[09:47] <pitti> #1  0x08057695 in hal_property_new_string (key=0x8068c70 "info.product", value=0x0) at property.c:86
[09:47] <pitti> ^ null string for value, and it calls a function on it
[09:47] <Treenaks> ah.. the string is empty/non-existent
[09:47] <Treenaks> "To test LUKS, you can use loop to make a blockdev out of any container file. The only requirement is that it's larger than 1mb." --> cool, 1.44M floppies work ;)
[09:57] <pitti> Hey carlos, seb128
[09:58] <carlos> morning
[09:58] <pitti> Treenaks: I'm not at fixing hal, I'll fix that at a very low level to catch similar issues as well
[09:59] <Treenaks> pitti: ok
[09:59] <pitti> Treenaks: argh, s/not/now/
[09:59] <Treenaks> pitti: even more ok :)
[10:03] <pitti> Treenaks: are you on i386?
[10:04] <Treenaks> pitti: yes
[10:04] <pitti> Treenaks: okay, I give you test debs in a minute
[10:04] <Treenaks> pitti: but I'm not near the machine now, and the card isn't plugged in
[10:04] <pitti> ah, too bad
[10:04] <pitti> Treenaks: well, then I just upload
[10:04] <pitti> I *know* my fix must be right *hehe*
[10:04] <Treenaks> ;)
[10:07] <seb128> hey pitti !
[10:11] <Amaranth> seb128: btw, pyxdg 0.11 is good now
[10:11] <Amaranth> seb128: he pulled the release and put it back up when we fixed the bug
[10:12] <seb128> hum?
[10:12] <seb128> he did 2 different 0.11?
[10:12] <Amaranth> yeah, not my idea
[10:13] <seb128> some upstream deserve some kicks
[10:13] <Amaranth> afaik the first one was only up about 45 minutes
[10:13] <seb128> not a reason
[10:13] <daniels> that's what 0.11.1 is for
[10:13] <Amaranth> yeah
[10:13] <seb128> please tell him for next time :)
[10:14] <Amaranth> i did the same thing with smeg though :)
[10:14] <Amaranth> i uploaded 0.6, found the bug in pyxdg and pulled it. then i fixed some other little bugs in smeg and uploaded it again as 0.6
[10:14] <seb128> what the issue with 0.6.1?
[10:15] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, that is very bad, because as a user, if I downloaded it before your pulled it, I would think I have the latest version
[10:15] <seb128> packaging wise too
[10:15] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: I know, it was stupid. In my defense, I had been up 27 hours at the time.
[10:15] <seb128> if somebody packages the new version there is no way to change the .orig.tar.gz
[10:15] <Amaranth> smeg 0.6.1?
[10:15] <seb128> yep
[10:16] <Amaranth> line 204 in MenuHandler.py (/usr/lib/smeg/) needs to be         xmlparent = self.getMenuFromPath(path, True)
[10:16] <Amaranth> unless i figure out how to load KDE icons in the next hour i'm going to release 0.6.1 with just that
[10:17] <Amaranth> then i need a MOTU to sponsor my package :)
[10:17] <Treenaks> Amaranth: who wants those anyway ;)
[10:17] <Lathiat> Amaranth: another bug, new items dont appear in smeg
[10:17] <Lathiat> Amaranth: as in when you create them with smeg
[10:17] <Amaranth> Lathiat: It's a timing issue, I think. If you click on the menu again they show up.
[10:17] <\sh> Amaranth: smeg == python kde?
[10:17] <Amaranth> smeg == gnome 2.10 menu editor
[10:17] <\sh> hehe
[10:18] <Amaranth> yes, i know what smegma is
[10:18] <\sh> whats your problem then with kde icons?
[10:18] <Amaranth> appearently they aren't in the hicolor theme so i need to load them another way
[10:19] <seb128> kubuntu guys have fixed that now
[10:19] <Amaranth> i was told that was fixed in kde CVS for the apps they ship, at least
[10:19] <\sh> Amaranth: u read riddells blog entry?
[10:19] <seb128> \sh: you need to be agressive? when he changed that this was hoary
[10:19] <seb128> and KDE/hoary is b0rked
[10:20] <Amaranth> kubuntu guys fixing it doesn't help gentoo and freebsd users :)
[10:20] <Amaranth> and no, that entry isn't showing up on planet ubuntu, is he on there?
[10:20] <seb128> neither hoary users
[10:20] <Amaranth> I guess PyXDG has something for this, but I need to get the name of the being used.
[10:21] <Amaranth> err, the name of the theme
[10:21] <\sh> Amaranth: <ironicmode>You don't need to think about gentoo, all the guys are leaving gentoo</ironicmode>
[10:21] <Amaranth> which as far as i can see gtk.IconTheme doesn't give me
[10:27] <Kamion> lamont: Keybuk said that the s/linux/linux-gnu/ thing was inappropriate, and that we should be preferring DEB_HOST_ARCH_OS if available instead
[10:31] <mjg59> AndyFitz: Could you possibly stick a copy of /proc/acpi/dsdt from your Dell up somewhere?
[10:34] <AndyFitz> mjg59,  sure thing
[10:34] <Burgundavia> AndyFitz, is there a way to preview the artwork stuff you are doing?
[10:34] <Burgundavia> AndyFitz, to give feedback?
[10:35] <AndyFitz> Burgundavia, it will be be packaged into ubuntu-artwork shortly if not already
[10:35] <Burgundavia> AndyFitz, cool, thanks
[10:35] <AndyFitz> brb
[10:35] <Burgundavia> AndyFitz, I have seen no update to ubuntu-artwork
[10:38] <Amaranth> do the gconf python bindings come in python's pygtk package?
[10:38] <Lathiat> i think so
[10:41] <Nafallo> hi all!
[10:44] <seb128> gconf is a python-gnome stuff, not pygtk
[10:45] <Amaranth> python-gnome2 or python-gnome2-extras?
[10:46] <Amaranth> nevermind, it's python-gnome2
[10:47] <AndyFitz> mjg59  pmed
[10:52] <Lathiat> woo ipw2200 monitor mode
[10:52] <Treenaks> \o/
[10:57] <fabbione> yeah except that dpatch made the upload useless
[10:57] <fabbione> a new kernel will be on the way soon
[11:13] <Lathiat> fabbione: thanks ;)
[11:13] <Lathiat> fabbione: ive gone back to hoary for the moment anyway
[11:14] <Lathiat> the X breakage is hurting my productivity
[11:34] <seb128> elmo: xpdf/hoary is b0rked according to some mail on the user list, the hoary index has a main path and the package is universe on the pool
[11:38] <elmo> seb128: err, right
[11:38] <elmo> more to the point, tho, xpdf wants to come back into main
[11:38] <seb128> do you know why?
[11:38] <mjg59> Hmm. I should really write up the HP stuff.
[11:39] <elmo> cupsys b-ds on it
[11:39] <elmo>  o xpdf: xpdf-common, xpdf-utils
[11:39] <elmo>    [Reverse-Depends: cupsys]
[11:39] <elmo> err, depends even
[11:39] <seb128> urg
[11:40] <seb128> pitti: why, WHY? :)
[11:40] <pitti> seb128: cups uses xpdf to convert PDF to Postscript
[11:40] <pitti> seb128: in former times it used a verbatim copy of xpdf copy, which was *evil*
[11:40] <seb128> k
[11:40] <seb128> maybe it could use poppler? :p
[11:40] <Lathiat> haha
[11:40] <pitti> seb128: why is this a problem?
[11:41] <pitti> seb128: I mean, why has xpdf to be demoted to universe?
[11:41] <seb128> xpdf is ugly, do we need it for main?
[11:41] <elmo> pitti: daniels wants to drop lesstif
[11:41] <pitti> seb128: we can still have evince as default pdf viewer
[11:41] <seb128> right
[11:41] <elmo> so he can drop/not deal with xprint, AFAICR
[11:41] <pitti> elmo: oh, that would indeed be nice
[11:41] <seb128> but we have 2 basecodes to support then
[11:41] <elmo> and xpdf is the last lesstif holdout
[11:41] <pitti> well, cups does not need the frontend part
[11:41] <seb128> I don't really care, you are the one doing security support
[11:42] <pitti> seb128: supporting xpdf is reasonably easy, but supporting the old lesstif is a pita
[11:42] <seb128> k
[11:42] <seb128> any the hoary filename is b0rked
[11:42] <seb128> that is to fix :)
[11:42] <pitti> seb128, elmo: but does xpdf-utils really depend on lesstif?
[11:42] <seb128> no idea
[11:42] <pitti> (I can't see a dependency)
[11:43] <pitti> no, it doesn't
[11:43] <pitti> elmo: I can happily purge lesstif*, this only removes xpdf-reader, but not xpdf-utils
[11:43] <pitti> seb128: ^
[11:43] <Lathiat> firefox seems to have fixed itself
[11:44] <Lathiat> infinity: firefox seems to have fixed itself, nfi wtf was u
[11:44] <Lathiat> infinity: p
[11:44] <elmo> pitti: I think we should split the source, like we did for php4, dropping xpdf-reader entirely (rather than just demoting it to universe) is a bit harsh
[11:44] <pitti> seb128: I would like to have xpdf-utils in main, it's really useful
[11:45] <seb128> pitti: I don't really care as said, I just thought than having xpdf to support too is extra work
[11:45] <pitti> elmo: can't we have -reader in universe, and -utils in main? we are already doing this for a number of packages
[11:45] <pitti> seb128: right
[11:45] <elmo> pitti: no, -utils's source package (currently xpdf) has to be in main, if it's in main
[11:45] <elmo> if it's in main, it's b-d's (i.e. lesstif) have to be in main
[11:45] <pitti> ah, crap, rihgt
[11:46] <pitti> elmo: okay, splitting the package would make sense
[11:46] <pitti> shall I try?
[11:46] <elmo> sure
[11:47] <Lathiat> Amaranth: tip: "Smeg Menu Editor"
[11:47] <Amaranth> Lathiat: SMEG = Simple Menu Editor for GNOME
[11:48] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, you toot tip, should be "Edit the menus" or something similar
[11:48] <Burgundavia> s/toot/tool
[11:48] <Lathiat> Amaranth: yes but the menu item
[11:48] <Lathiat> Amaranth: should say "Smeg Menu Editor"
[11:48] <Lathiat> Amaranth: because "smeg" means nothing to someone
[11:49] <Burgundavia> no
[11:49] <Burgundavia> it should say Menu Editor
[11:49] <Lathiat> Amaranth: take "Firefox Web Browser", "Gaim Instant Messenger" for example
[11:49] <Burgundavia> or SMEG Menu Editor
[11:49] <bob2> calling a serious app "smeg" seems a bit wrong
[11:49] <Lathiat> bob2: heh
[11:49] <Lathiat> bob2: but its so good
[11:51] <pitti> elmo: would it be okay for you for "xpdf" source to only build -reader, and have the same orig.tar.gz for the source pkg "xpdf-utils" which spits out -common and -utils? copying the orig.tar.gz is a bit redundant, but actually separating the code is much work
[11:51] <Amaranth> btw, what should my first entry into a debian/changelog be?
[11:52] <elmo> pitti: sure, it's only 500K
[11:52] <pitti> ok
[11:52] <pitti> then that should be fairly easy
[11:53] <Lathiat> Amaranth: * Initial revision. or something
[11:53] <Lathiat> * hai2u, kthxbai
[11:53] <Amaranth> would "Initial packaging" work?
[11:54] <Lathiat> "initial release" seems popular
[11:54] <Amaranth> *shrug*
[11:57] <pitti> seb128: in fact, libpoppler actually sounds interesting...
[11:58] <seb128> yep
[12:00] <pitti> seb128: if it has a reasonably easy interface, I'd rather convert cups to use poppler than to have the pain of keeping two xpdf packages
[12:00] <pitti> seb128: the code should be based on xpdf, does evince use poppler? (to get an impression of the quality)
[12:00] <seb128> it should
[12:01] <seb128> yes, it does
[12:01] <seb128> they have switch from xpdf to poppler like 2-3 months ago
[12:02] <pitti> seb128: does poppler have a nice command line tool?
[12:02] <seb128> no
[12:03] <seb128> that's only a lib atm
[12:03] <Amaranth> Lathiat: 0.6.1 is out :)
[12:03] <Lathiat> Amaranth: heh
[12:03] <Lathiat> that was fast
[12:03] <Amaranth> yeah, i have up on the icon stuff
[12:03] <Amaranth> err, gave
[12:04] <seb128> pitti: you can read the README, there is some details on poppler here
[12:04] <Amaranth> damn, one warning in lintian because of a copy/paste job
[12:05] <pitti> seb128: actually, having a proper pdf library was a longstanding wish for the packages that copied xpdf code, like cupsys and tetex
[12:05] <Amaranth> so rushed to release i forgot to check :)
[12:05] <pitti> seb128: so I rather invest my time to use the lib than to whack up xpdf, I guess
[12:05] <seb128> better option I think yes
[12:10] <mdke> morning ogras
[12:12] <Kamion> um. is http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/testing/breezy_probs.html really true?
[12:12] <Kamion> zero uninstallables seems a bit optimistic
[12:12] <thom> seems extremely optimistic
[12:12] <pitti> seb128: hmm, ENODOCUMENTATION... :-(
[12:13] <Lathiat> thom: heh
[12:13] <Kamion> I think I must have caught it in the middle of mirroring; fixed
[12:13] <Kamion> well, "fixed"
[12:14] <Kamion> that's more like it, THE ENTIRE WORLD is uninstallable
[12:15] <elmo> 15 4,10,16,22 * * * sh /home/archvsync/archive-sync
[12:15] <elmo> kamion: ^-- rookery's mirroring, FWIW
[12:15] <seb128> pitti: I'm asking on #evince if they have some hidden files about the API or something :)
[12:15] <Kamion> elmo: the britney mirror's a separate job; runs at 15,45 * * * *
[12:15] <Kamion> but thanks
[12:16] <elmo> err, you do your own mirroring?
[12:16] <elmo> anyway, if you do, I'd switch that to like 0,30, that's just before the cron.daily
[12:16] <elmo> (I'm assuming/hoping you're only mirroring Packages/Sources, so that should be more than enough time)
[12:24] <ogra> i'm just patching dupload to have ubuntu as the first mirror, by default the $default_host variable is commented out, is it ok to set it to ubuntu and uncomment it by default ?
[12:24] <jsgotangco> bye bye
[12:25] <mdke> night
[12:27] <\sh> ogra: what about a postinst script for adjusting the settings
[12:27] <ogra> \sh, why, the default config is there... no need to fiddle with scripts in it...
[12:28] <\sh> ogra: right
[12:29] <ogra> ok, if there are no further objections, i'll upload it...
[12:32] <mdke> ogra, get my message?
[12:34] <Kamion> elmo: it's not mirroring the archive, I haven't set up the separate britney run on rookery yet; it's only mirroring the output of the britney run on jackass, i.e. one HTML file and one text file
[12:34] <elmo> kamion: _oh_
[12:34] <Kamion> I've shoved it back five minutes though
[12:43] <ogra> :)
[12:44] <\sh> hmm
[12:44] <Netsnipe> hi everyone
[12:44] <\sh> libdnet-0.29 after renaming libdnetc2-0.29-0ubuntu1 ?
[12:44] <Netsnipe> seb128: ping
[12:44] <seb128> pong
[12:45] <Netsnipe> seb128: can you please sync balsa and tsclient in ubuntu against what's currently in sarge?
[12:45] <Netsnipe> seb128: you guys are a bit behind and there's been a tonne of stabilisation patches = )
[12:46] <\sh> argl...native package
[12:47] <Netsnipe> seb128_: can you please sync balsa and tsclient in ubuntu against what's currently in sarge?
[12:47] <Netsnipe> seb128_: you guys are a bit behind and there's been a tonne of stabilisation patches = )
[12:47] <Kamion> Netsnipe: we have automatic bugs to remind us of merges
 no need to ask for syncs
[12:47] <Kamion> they will all get done by upstream version freeze
 just wait
[12:48] <Netsnipe> seb128_: never saw that message.
[12:48] <seb128_> that's why I copy it
[12:48] <Netsnipe> heh.
[12:48] <seb128_> anyway balsa is universe
[12:48] <seb128_> so not a priority
[12:49] <Kamion> e.g. https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10412
[12:49] <Netsnipe> seb128_: 2.3.0-2 that you copied had a RC bug
[12:49] <ogra> Netsnipe, MOTU will care for balsa... if you got a prob with a universe package, feel free to join #ubuntu-motu ;)
[12:49] <seb128_> I didn't copied 2.3.0-2
[12:49] <Kamion> also note the T-14 and T-13 weeks stages of http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseCycle
[12:52] <Netsnipe> ogra: seb128 is my counterpart in the "parallel universe"
[12:52] <ogra> hehe
[12:52] <Netsnipe> seb128: http://packages.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/b/balsa/balsa_2.3.0-2ubuntu1/changelog doesn't list any other patches
[12:53] <Netsnipe> but anyway...I've got nothing else to add
[12:53] <Netsnipe> take your time. I've done all my hard work doing the squishing
[12:53] <seb128_> Netsnipe: yeah, I need to sync
[12:53] <Netsnipe> thanks seb128_
[12:53] <Netsnipe> seb128_: if you're too busy you could always hassle me to join MOTU
[12:53] <seb128_> we could do that automatically if the Debian package was using a current version of gtkhtml
[12:53] <seb128_> IIRC it uses 3.2
[12:56] <Netsnipe> seb128_: want to do some testing against the 3.5?
[12:56] <Netsnipe> s/to/me to/
[12:56] <seb128_> no, that's fine
[12:56] <seb128_> I will do the sync now
[12:56] <seb128_> just changing the Build-Depends to 3.6
[12:57] <Netsnipe> seb128_: against 2.3,0-2sarge1 or 2.3.2-1?
[12:57] <seb128_> current
[12:57] <seb128_> is: 2.3.2
[12:58] <Netsnipe> that's fine
[12:59] <Netsnipe> btw: please pass on thanks to Ati (whoever does your Xhosa translations) from Erick Woods (upstream for tsclient)
[12:59] <Netsnipe> s/Ati/Adi/
[12:59] <Netsnipe> it's strange how that translation got to him
[12:59] <Netsnipe> seb128 merged it into the ubuntu package
[12:59] <Netsnipe> I merged it into the debian package
[12:59] <Netsnipe> and then upstream merged the debian patches
[01:01] <seb128_> he he
[01:01] <seb128_> does upstream have a bug tracker or something?
[01:01] <seb128_> I've no idea on what to do about tsclient bugs
[01:01] <seb128_> which is a pity
[01:01] <Netsnipe> seb128_: pretty much I am.
[01:01] <Netsnipe> seb128_: he's on my gaim list
[01:01] <seb128_> they should ask to use bugzilla.gnome.org
[01:02] <Netsnipe> seb128_: I'll hassle him about that.
[01:02] <seb128_> we have 8 bugs open on tsclient
[01:03] <Netsnipe> seb128_: yeah. I'll pass those on to him
[01:03] <seb128_> thanks
[01:04] <Netsnipe> oh well gotta go. I'll get tsclient 0.140-1 uploaded into unstable once 0.132-7 gets pushed into testing
[01:04] <Netsnipe> later seb128
[01:28] <pitti> seb128: oh, libpoppler-glib-dev has a nice API, in contrast to libpoppler-dev
[01:28] <Amaranth> i suspect libpoppler-glib is what evince uses :)
[01:29] <doko> mvo: aptitude fails on amd64 and ia64. why doesn't aptitude b-dep on gettext und uses the system libintl?
[01:32] <mvo> doko: let me have a look
[01:32] <doko_> mvo: aptitude fails on amd64 and ia64. why doesn't aptitude b-dep on gettext und uses the system libintl?
[01:33] <mvo> doko_: I'll have a look
[01:37] <pitti> seb128, elmo: forget the xpdf split, I modified xpdf's pdftops script to compile with poppler
[01:38] <pitti> s/script/program/
[01:38] <elmo> you mean cupsys's pdftops?
[01:38] <pitti> elmo: no, that's a perl script that calls pdf2ps from xpdf-utils
[01:39] <elmo> ah
[01:39] <pitti> elmo: we can replace that pdf2ps by a lightweight version that uses libpoppler
[01:39] <pitti> the only question is whether I shall just integrate this into cupsys, or create a new source package "poppler-utils" or so
[01:39] <pitti> .. or modify the libpoppler source to create a new deb
[01:40] <pitti> right now I'd favor the cups integration
[01:43] <Burgundavia> ok, dumb question
[01:44] <Burgundavia> when Debian moves the GFDL stuff to non-free, is Ubuntu going to follow that?
[01:44] <elmo> no
[01:44] <Amaranth> GFDL is non-free? wtf
[01:44] <Burgundavia> yes
[01:44] <robtaylor> Amaranth: where have you been?!
[01:44] <Amaranth> appearently in the land of the sane
[01:44] <Amaranth> what's the argument?
[01:44] <Burgundavia> basically the screwballs at -legal decided taht GFDL is non-free because it has some yucky bits
[01:44] <robtaylor> GFDL is non-free in lots (3) nasty ways
[01:45] <mjg59> Amaranth: It restricts various things that should be allowed
[01:45] <Burgundavia> and thus all docs are moving to non0free
[01:45] <bob2> Amaranth: the gfdl is terrible
[01:45] <Burgundavia> inlcuding useful things like, say 'man gcc'
[01:45] <bob2> Burgundavia: lots of useful things are non-free
[01:45] <Burgundavia> which means those things will not be installed by default
[01:45] <bob2> it's a shame, but you can't go pretending they're not just because it would be nice
[01:45] <Burgundavia> bob2, but to call the GFDL non-free is splits the hairs ont eh back of the flea
[01:45] <bob2> it's really not
[01:45] <Amaranth> so basically all the documentation is moving to non-free
[01:45] <elmo> Burgundavia: no, it's really not
[01:46] <elmo> Burgundavia: this has nothing to do with -legal being full of morons these days
[01:46] <bob2> Amaranth: only documentation under that silly license
[01:46] <elmo> the GFDL really isn't free
[01:46] <Burgundavia> yes, the GFDL is not very nice
[01:46] <mjg59> Burgundavia: Approximately nobody within Debian claims that the GFDL is free
[01:46] <mvo> doko: aptitude fails because of a error in the configure bit that checks for gettext
[01:47] <Burgundavia> mjg59, but where is the sanity?
[01:47] <bob2> Burgundavia: blame gnu for concocting such a silly license
[01:47] <Amaranth> all of wikipedia is under that license... :/
[01:47] <mjg59> Burgundavia: We're working with the FSF to try to fix the license
[01:47] <bob2> Amaranth: which is another shame, but see what mjg59 is saying
[01:47] <Burgundavia> bob2, CC wasn't out then
[01:47] <robtaylor> Burgundavia: blame RMS for just going ' you dont understand' when anyoen tries to discuss it...
[01:48] <mjg59> The FSF are receptive
[01:48] <bob2> Burgundavia: CC is also non-free
[01:48] <Amaranth> but you'd have to get every contributor to wikipedia to accept the new one
[01:48] <Amaranth> not possible
[01:48] <bob2> Burgundavia: if you want a free documentation license, use the GPL or MIT
[01:48] <Amaranth> anyone got a link to the debian-legal archive for all this?
[01:48] <Burgundavia> bob2, ok, they are not specifically meant for docs
[01:48] <bob2> Burgundavia: indeed, but they're still better license for documentation than CC or the GFDL are
[01:48] <Amaranth> CC isn't either
[01:48] <Burgundavia> Amaranth, about once a month it gets talked about
[01:49] <bob2> Amaranth: http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.html
[01:49] <mjg59> CC is also being worked on
[01:49] <Amaranth> in other news, i hate hoary
[01:49] <Burgundavia> elmo, what I really care about is that ubuntu is not goign to follow this absolutely insane path
[01:49] <robtaylor> Burgundavia: doesnt matter, you still often want to combine code and documentation, so licensing *needs* to be compatible. and preferably identical
[01:49] <robtaylor> ;)
[01:49] <Amaranth> Burgundavia: where could they move the docs to? restricted? that'd be silly
[01:50] <Burgundavia> robtaylor, I understand all the legal issues, but there are times to use a nuke and times to use a popgun. This is using nuke to kill a flea
[01:50] <robtaylor> what *exactly* is the defining chacteristic of main vs retrictued, univers vs multiverse?
[01:50] <robtaylor> i though it was free/non-free, but obviously not...
[01:51] <Amaranth> multiverse is like universe's restricted, i think
[01:51] <robtaylor> Burgundavia: you're overestimating the issues dramatically
[01:51] <bob2> main is free and supported, restrictes i non-free (drivers) and supported, universe is free and supported, multiverse is non-free and not supported
[01:51] <mjg59> Burgundavia: Would you prefer that Debian place something that doesn't meet the DFSG in main?
[01:51] <Burgundavia> I see all the license agruments, this is what I also see
[01:51] <aj> what, like the text of the GPL? :-P
[01:51] <robtaylor> bob2:  so gfdl docs wwill go in restricted/multi?
[01:51] <Burgundavia> I type in 'man gcc' and I get nothing on a fresh install
[01:51] <mjg59> aj: Bah. Yes, well, that case is special.
[01:52] <mjg59> Burgundavia: Right. And how do you propose that be fixed?
[01:52] <robtaylor> aj: taht iws frewew
[01:52] <bob2> Burgundavia: you get that anyway, since gcc isn't installed on ubuntu or debian by default
[01:52] <Amaranth> the text of the GPL is under the GFDL? :)
[01:52] <robtaylor> ARGH. I'vew broken my keyboard
[01:52] <Burgundavia> bob2, man $program, where $doc is gfdl
[01:52] <mjg59> Burgundavia: (Leaving it in main isn't really possible without changing the social contract)
[01:53] <Amaranth> if it's in main it has to be Free
[01:53] <mjg59> Amaranth: Correct
[01:53] <Burgundavia> mjg59, that is cutting the world very black and white, which it is not
[01:53] <mjg59> So we can do that by fixing the license, which is what we're trying to do
[01:53] <mjg59> Burgundavia: "Free" or "Non-free" is a black and white choice
[01:53] <bob2> Burgundavia: a) this has been put off until after sarge, b) people are trying to unfuck the GFDL before the next release so that doesn't have to happen
[01:56] <pitti> daniels: is xpdf the only thing that still requires lesstif?
[01:56] <elmo> yes
[01:56] <elmo> he fixed vim yesterday
[01:57] <pitti> cool
[01:57] <Burgundavia> mjg59, bob2, robtaylor I see all the issues, and I have now read most of the emails and position statements, and I understand why Debian is oding it, but it still strike me as insane and overkill
[01:58] <mjg59> Burgundavia: If somebody can come up with a better solution, we're willing to do it
[01:58] <mjg59> But non-free stuff in main is not an acceptable long term solution
[01:59] <robtaylor> --
[02:03] <trulux> pitti: ping
[02:04] <pitti> Hi trulux
[02:04] <trulux> pitti: hey fellow
[02:11] <daniels> pitti: yep, so we can demote that to universe soon, and then later demote xp when mozilla gets fixed
[02:17] <lamont> Kamion: ok.  I'll make a note of that.
[02:18] <lamont> infinity: <Kamion> lamont: Keybuk said that the s/linux/linux-gnu/ thing was inappropriate, and that we should be preferring DEB_HOST_ARCH_OS if available instead
[02:18] <lamont> infinity: for when you do the samba merge
[02:21] <Burgundavia> mjg59, that is the catch, as there is no easy solution
[02:23] <kiko> yo hackers of the 21st century
[02:23] <bob2> yo-yo, ki-ko
[02:25] <daniels> wassup kiks
[02:25] <pitti> hey kiko, how's going
[02:27] <kiko> it's all cooking third-worldly
[02:27] <kiko> enrico!
[02:28] <enrico> hi!
[02:28] <AndyFitz>   centreicq is so underrated
[02:29] <seb128> elmo: tsclient sync
[02:29] <elmo> seb128: done
[02:29] <seb128> thanks
[02:30] <Mithrandir> apt should accept comma separated lists on the command line.
[02:31] <maswan> elmo: Hmm. We still occasionally fail the archive-sync, and this with a timeout on an rsync that has run for 15 minutes.
[02:31] <maswan> elmo: isn't that a bit tight?
[02:31] <elmo> maswan: the timeout's definitely set to 7200?
[02:32] <elmo> I can do some tests, but I suspect it's not dropping on our end?
[02:32] <maswan>  ftp-deb 41392 32062   0 14:32:06  pts/2  0:00 /usr/local/bin/rsync -rltv --timeout 7200 --exclude Packages* --exclude Sources* --exclude Release* --exclude Archive-Update-in-Progress-ftp.acc.umu.se se@syncproxy.ubuntu.com::ubuntu /export/ftp/mirror//ubuntu
[02:32] <maswan> that's the full command line that fails
[02:32] <maswan> (well, some of the time)
[02:32] <elmo> maswan: sorry, no, I mean it _is_ definitely 7200 on our end too
[02:32] <lamont>   poxml: Depends: libqt3c102-mt (>= 3:3.3.3) but it is not installable
[02:32] <maswan> ah, ok.
[02:32] <lamont> poor d-i
[02:32] <elmo> it's the same config + rsync as archive.u.c and I see long-running (days) rsyncs on that box
[02:32] <maswan> this is quite odd then.
[02:33] <ogra> AndyFitz, its perl, what do you expect ? ;)
[02:33] <maswan> well, yeah, but the timeout doesn't trigger as long as both ends talk to eachother, even if it is slowly
[02:33] <elmo> maswan: well, if you can reproduce it reliably I can, strace our end
[02:33] <maswan> the issue here is that some of the time, the local file system traversal takes ~5 minutes, during which it times out.
[02:34] <maswan> Hmm. Well, I can try.
[02:34] <elmo> btw, according to the docs, our timeout setting overrides yours (as the client)
[02:35] <maswan> Ah, ok.
[02:35] <maswan> rsync: read error: Connection timed out
[02:35] <maswan> rsync error: error in rsync protocol data stream (code 12) at io.c(162)
[02:35] <maswan> rsync: connection unexpectedly closed (3609970 bytes read so far)
[02:35] <maswan> rsync error: error in rsync protocol data stream (code 12) at io.c(150)
[02:35] <maswan> that's the error message btw
[02:36] <maswan> I'll see if I can make it reproducible
[02:36] <elmo> I'm stracing the current rsync atm
[02:37] <fabbione> Kamion: ping?
[02:37] <maswan> hope it fails then. :)
[02:41] <elmo> maswan: nah, it worked :(
[02:47] <elmo> how often are you syncing?
[02:47] <Lathiat> ]
[02:48] <Nafallo> elmo: 10 04,10,16,20
[02:49] <elmo> OH, two part sync.  duh
[02:56] <maswan> elmo: :/
[02:56] <AndyFitz> breezy,  its so unstable its practically on par with my ex ;)
[02:56] <doko> bug reports that the world needs:
[02:57] <doko> #287539: [l10n]  Initial Czech translation of norwegian debconf messages
[02:57] <\sh> ahahha
[02:57] <Mithrandir> doko: :P
[02:58] <\sh> Mithrandir: ping :) need debhelper ;)
[02:58] <Nafallo> daniels: yay! latest xorg built on amd64 here :-).
[02:58] <\sh> Mithrandir: forget it
[02:58] <maswan> elmo: thing is, it works almost always when I run it manually. but for some reason, the cron:ed one breaks now and then.
[02:58] <doko> Mithrandir: btw, should an aspell dictionary depend on libaspell or aspell-bin/aspell ?
[02:59] <elmo> maswan: maybe strace on your end?
[02:59] <Mithrandir> doko: unsure.
[02:59] <maswan> elmo: It just seems like it is hitting the timeout, but a 5 or 10 minute timeout, not the proper long one.
[03:00] <pitti> cupsys_1.1.23-7ubuntu2_source.changes ACCEPTED -> bye bye, xpdf!
[03:00] <lamont> Subject: Log for failed build of xorg_6.8.2-19 (dist=breezy)
[03:01] <fabbione> ahah i knew that!
[03:01] <lamont> pitti: so what do I use to display pdf's on my screen then?
[03:01] <Mithrandir> lamont: evince
[03:01] <lamont> or is it just that cupsys used to use xpdf?
[03:01] <fabbione> no wonder amd64 did succeed.. it was the only one tested
[03:01] <lamont> Mithrandir: what an obvious name
[03:01] <pitti> lamont: I converted cupsys to use libpoppler
[03:02] <Amaranth> lamont: it's menu entry is "Evince Document Viewer"
[03:02] <Amaranth> evince > * though, it's starting be turn into something like OS X's Preview
[03:02] <lamont> Amaranth: there's a menu? :-)
[03:03] <Mithrandir> lamont: beneath the pile of terminals.
[03:03] <lamont> Mithrandir: nah - that's the desktop
[03:03] <thom> why is it in GRAPHICS though?
[03:03] <Amaranth> thom: good question
[03:03] <Mithrandir> thom: it has a window => graphics, surely.
[03:03] <thom> I WANT TO READ A DOCUMENT. GRAPHICS IS NOT THE OBVIOUS CHOICE
[03:03] <lamont> thom: because it runs on a grahpics system?
[03:03] <maswan> elmo: I'll try.
[03:03] <Amaranth> thom: gpdf and iirc xpdf got put there too
[03:03] <Mithrandir> thom: clickyclicky on the file itself, then?
[03:03] <thom> Amaranth: they were in the wrong place, too
[03:04] <thom> Mithrandir: *sssh*
[03:04] <Burgundavia> thom, ggv is still there
[03:04] <Amaranth> thom: not sure office would be better though, since it opens tiffs and such too
[03:04] <kiko> Kamion, is the surak-call today?
[03:04] <ogra> kiko, i was just about to ask
[03:04] <fabbione> daniels, doko: you forgot to update the MANIFEST files....
[03:04] <ogra> kiko, my evolution calendar thinks it
[03:05] <Xof> I hesitate to make this suggestion, but since evince is demonstrably both an image viewer and a piece of office software, why not give it entries in both menus?
[03:05] <fabbione> daniels, doko: please do not forget sparc and hppa, kthxbye
[03:06] <Burgundavia> Xof, that means two .desktop files and all the attendant fun, plus menu bloat
[03:07] <daniels> fabbione: hm, I thought I did the MANIFESTs for everything
[03:08] <Amaranth> i see you guys have all these people making logos and mascots for breezy, how do i get in on the action? smeg could use some icon love :)
[03:08] <Xof> Burgundavia: does that answer boil up to "our software doesn't let you do that at the moment, and it's a bad idea anyway because I believe everything in the world should fit in exactly one category"?
[03:08] <fabbione> daniels: apparently not.. check the logs..
[03:08] <Burgundavia> Xof, our software doesn't do it and it is a bad idea
[03:08] <fabbione> bbl
[03:08] <Xof> that's a shame
[03:09] <Amaranth> Xof: More like "the standard doesn't allow that and it's a bad idea anyway because some apps would end up in every menu and look ridiculous"
[03:09] <Nafallo> *hrm* nvu *hrm* ;-)
[03:10] <Simira> Nafallo: did you say your gf wanted a gerbil? We've got one too much atm...
[03:11] <Xof> OK, well, it's not my distribution: by all means do what you think is right -- but I can't honestly say that your answers have seemed to be any more than rationalization
[03:11] <Burgundavia> Xof, there are good reasons why you don't want an app in multiple categories
[03:11] <Xof> I believe you
[03:12] <Kamion> fabbione: yo
[03:12] <Kamion> kiko: erm, yes, probably, but I want mdz to be around if possible
[03:13] <Nafallo> Simira: dunno. I could call her :-).
[03:13] <Kamion> kiko: they seem to be reluctant to give me any contact details; I still don't have any e-mail addresses for them, despite asking for e-mails several times
[03:13] <daniels> i guess naming a release 'what could possibly go wrong?' was just asking for trouble
[03:16] <kiko> Kamion, let me sort that out.
[03:18] <pitti> Kamion: a while ago we talked about dropping all packages from the seeds that are depended on by language-support-*
[03:19] <pitti> Kamion: shall I do that now? IMHO it's a good time
[03:20] <Kamion> pitti: um, is that actually a good thing? I don't think so
[03:21] <Kamion> pitti: I'd like to know exactly what would be removed rather than just saying "OK, let's nuke the lot"
[03:21] <pitti> Kamion: essentially it's the whole "= Localisation =" paragraph
[03:22] <pitti> (minus *-locales)
[03:22] <Kamion> of which seed?
[03:22] <pitti> breezy/supported
[03:22] <Kamion> pitti: OK, although I think we should keep gettext-el there too
[03:22] <pitti> Kamion: well, I don't _need_ to do that, we just discussed about this a while ago, and ISTR that you wanted to do that
[03:23] <Kamion> I did? hmm, memory like a what's-its-name
[03:23] <pitti> well, if you are unsure, we can leave it for now
[03:23] <pitti> I would go through the whole list and drop everything that has a reverse dep to lang-supp-*
[03:24] <pitti> so we would see which packages are not yet covered by langpacks
[03:24] <pitti> ... but that is a good idea even if I don't commit the change
[03:24] <Kamion> I'd be a little more cautious than that personally; there are things we explicitly want to have even though they happen to be currently depended upon by other things
[03:24] <Kamion> the seeds are not meant to be leaf packages only
[03:24] <Kamion> they're meant to be "stuff we want"
[03:25] <pitti> right, the l-support pacakges are sort of a second kind of seed
[03:26] <pitti> Kamion: so should we do it the other way round then? add everything to the seeds that is currently a dep of a langpack, but not yet seeded?
[03:26] <Kamion> you're being too black-and-white
[03:26] <Kamion> all I'm saying is that "already depended-upon by something else" is not sufficient reason to remove something from a seed
[03:26] <pitti> yes, agreed
[03:26] <Kamion> reason to remove something from a seed would be "we *only* need this because something else depends on it"
[03:27] <Kamion> as in, if the other thing went away, we wouldn't need it any more
[03:27] <pitti> well, the idea was to have the langpacks be the l10n seeds
[03:27] <pitti> to avoid redundancy
[03:27] <Kamion> I don't mind you removing the stuff you mentioned explicitly above, under Localisation
[03:28] <pitti> this might be discussed on the ML or TB...
[03:28] <Kamion> it just worries me when you say you're going to go through and REMOVE EVERYTHING :-)
[03:28] <pitti> ugh, no
[03:28] <pitti> basically the ooo-{help,l10n,...}-<lang> and similar packages
[03:28] <Kamion> those should be fine, yes
[03:29] <Kamion> I'm not sure I'm convinced yet by language packs as secondary seeds ...
[03:29] <pitti> ok, then let's defer that until we discussed it at the ML?
[03:29] <Kamion> how are the lists stored from which the langpacks are autogenerated?
[03:29] <Kamion> sure
[03:30] <Kamion> just trying to think of considerations for derivatives, etc.
[03:30] <pitti> right now there is a langpack-o-matic subdirectory "support-depends" which has one file for each language
[03:31] <Kamion> which essentially behave like seeds? so support-depends ~= seeds and language-pack-* ~= ubuntu-meta?
[03:31] <pitti> yes
[03:31] <pitti> I change support-depends/<Language> and call "./update-support"
[03:31] <pitti> this
[03:32] <pitti> builds new l-support-<lang> packages
[03:32] <seb128> pitti: well done for cups/poppler :)
[03:32] <pitti> seb128: thanks :-)
[03:33] <pitti> seb128: I wasn't aware of poppler, nice hint
[03:33] <seb128> :)
[03:56] <Kamion> fabbione: do you have that debootstrap/breezy.buildd diff handy?
[04:29] <pitti> hey Mr. do"rebuild the world"ko :-)
[04:29] <Treenaks> pitti: emerge world
[04:30] <ogra> hehe
[04:30] <pitti> I need some fresh air, see you later
[04:30] <ogra> today he learns spelling ;)
[04:46] <lamont> right.  honey-do's.  back in a while
[04:46] <lamont> well, back in about 20 minutes for a couple minutes, then gone for 2-4 hours
[04:48] <fabbione> Kamion: sorry, i was away.. i will need to retest it with the overall new crack, so just upload and i will do it with more quiteness.
[04:49] <fabbione> Kamion: also.. can we start pre-seeding 2.6.12 into main?
[04:50] <\sh> maswan: ping
[04:51] <\sh> Mithrandir: ping 2 ;)
[04:51] <Kamion> fabbione: I wouldn't bother with pre-seeding
[04:51] <fabbione> Kamion: re-checking the diff now
[04:51] <Kamion> just upload and shift to main when it's ready
[04:52] <fabbione> Kamion: well we can shift to main anytime.. the kernel is there :)
[04:52] <Kamion> I'm just about to upload debootstrap - it'll probably be broken on sparc because the required vs. base will be wrong, but that'll get sorted as soon as your builds come up to date
[04:52] <fabbione> Kamion: i am testing the diff right now...
[04:52] <Mithrandir> \sh: yes?
[04:52] <fabbione> if you want to wait a couple of minutes..
[04:52] <fabbione> otherwise go ahead and don't worry :)
[04:52] <Kamion> fabbione: ok, I'll wait
[04:53] <\sh> Mithrandir: see query :)
[04:53] <Mithrandir> \sh: see query yourself. :P
[04:53] <\sh> Mithrandir: hehe :) u need a build-dep bot ;)
[04:55] <maswan> elmo: kread(3, " / 01 ", 4)                         Err#78 ETIMEDOUT
[04:58] <elmo> nobody    7497  0.0  0.6  16352 14376 ?        SNs  14:36   0:02  \_ rsync --daemon
[04:58] <elmo> nobody    7708  0.8  0.7  16628 14624 ?        SNs  15:54   0:01  \_ rsync --daemon
[04:58] <elmo> those are both you ..
[04:58] <elmo> and the first one is just waiting on my side
[05:00] <fabbione> Kamion: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/buildd.diff
[05:00] <fabbione> Kamion: it works fine on both i386 and sparc
[05:01] <fabbione> we get rid of some gcc-3.3 stuff
[05:01] <ubuntu> hi
[05:01] <ubuntu> someone using ubuntu in ppc?
[05:01] <ubuntu> root@ubuntu:/# ybin
[05:01] <ubuntu> Failed to initialize HFS working directories: No such file or directory
[05:01] <ubuntu> ybin: /dev/hda5 appears to have never had a bootstrap installed, please run mkofboot
[05:02] <ubuntu> I have this error when I try to install yaboot
[05:02] <thom> ubuntu: users questions in #ubuntu please
[05:02] <ubuntu> is not a questions
[05:03] <ubuntu> is a bug
[05:03] <ubuntu> xD
[05:03] <thom> no, it's not
[05:03] <fabbione> ubuntu: this channel is "There is a bug and this is the fix"
[05:03] <ubuntu> ok
[05:12] <ogra> run lamont, run (nad have fun)
[05:12] <ogra> and even
[05:13] <lamont> heh
[05:13] <lamont> later all
[05:14] <toresbe> http://homepage.eircom.net/~wastedyouth/gnu.jpg  :D
[05:14] <ogra> WOW
[05:14] <ogra> ogra@honk:~ $ sudo cfdisk
[05:14] <ogra> Segmentation fault
[05:15] <Treenaks> nice
[05:15] <dilinger> is that sudo or cfdisk that's segfaulting?
[05:15] <ogra> cfdisk... sudo works with other apps
[05:15] <mvo> is muine broken in breezy right now?
[05:16] <ogra> mvo, might be... tseng is holding back some stuff...
[05:16] <elmo> heh, a broken sudo would have interesting consequences
[05:16] <fabbione> ogra, amu: ping?
[05:17] <fabbione> it's cfdisk
[05:17] <ogra> fabbione, can we start testing finally.,...
[05:17] <ghpolo> im too scared to do this last dist-upgrade ;o
[05:17] <fabbione> ogra: i added a test case for OCFS2 in ClusterFileSystem
[05:17] <fabbione> ogra: the kernel is in the buildd now.
[05:17] <ogra> oki
[05:17] <fabbione> the tools are in universe
[05:18] <ogra> oki
[05:18] <fabbione> well the kernel is too :)
[05:19] <fabbione> and i am off for a while.. i might pass by later
[05:19] <ogra> no problem, i already run the last version...
[05:19] <fabbione> ogra: no no.. you need the one that is building now
[05:19] <ogra> fabbione, i know...
[05:19] <fabbione> because in the previous version there is no OCFS2
[05:19] <fabbione> ok
[05:19] <fabbione> <IP_ADDRESS>-1.3/ to be exact
[05:19] <Kamion> fabbione: all uploaded
[05:20] <fabbione> Kamion: thanks a lot :)
[05:21] <fabbione> the new buildd chroots will show how is still abusing gcc-3.3 without declaring a direct b-d
[05:21] <fabbione> unfortunatly dpkg still needs libstdc5
[05:21] <fabbione> otherwise we could have killed gcc-3.3-base too
[05:21] <fabbione> well.. at the next round :)
[05:25] <Kamion> haven't you rebuilt dpkg yet?
[05:26] <Kamion> new dpkg shouldn't ...
[05:40] <Burgundavia> seb128, can you take a look at https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11126 ?
[05:40] <Burgundavia> I suspect user error
[05:58] <elmo> Kamion: do you know why /etc/network/interfaces no longer auto eth0's ?
[05:58] <elmo> in hoary installs
[05:59] <opi> elmo: hotplug is rising it?
[05:59] <elmo> opi: yeah, not so much on a non-modular kernel
[05:59] <opi> elmo: I was wondering that myself :-)
[05:59] <eruin> where would I file a bug agains this? after installing and selecting norwegian bokmaal all the way, this is my language var: LANGUAGE=nb_NO:nb:no_NO:no:nn_NO:nn:da:sv:en_GB:en   - I just don't get why danish and swedish is added in that mix - makes no sense at all
[05:59] <opi> elmo: like mine :->
[06:00] <Kamion> elmo: netcfg only sets that up if the installer detected eth0
[06:00] <Kamion> er ... and if it's not hotpluggable, apparently
[06:00] <Kamion>         if (!iface_is_hotpluggable(iface) && !find_in_stab(iface))
[06:00] <Kamion>             fprintf(fp, "auto %s\n", iface);
[06:01] <elmo> Kamion: right, but warty put the auto eth0 unconditionally
[06:01] <opi> at installation process?
[06:01] <elmo> which is kind of nice, given that if you switch to a non-modular kernel, you end up without a network interface
[06:01] <opi> what if I put a card that will not be modprobed by hotplug?
[06:01] <elmo> opi: that would be !iface_is_hotpluggable
[06:02] <opi> elmo: that's why I've been asking it this code snip is a procedure from installation or every boot proecss
[06:02] <Kamion>   * Per Olofsson
[06:02] <Kamion>     - Check for hotpluggable (PCMCIA) network interfaces in
[06:02] <Kamion>       /etc/network/devhotplug and don't generate auto entries for them.
[06:02] <Kamion>       Also put them in a "mapping hotplug" stanza. Closes: #239284.
[06:02] <Kamion>  -- Joshua Kwan<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Sun, 11 Apr 2004 22:55:40 -0700
[06:02] <Kamion> opi: installer
[06:03] <Kamion> elmo: that change was considerably before warty - only thing I can think of is that the installer has suddenly worked out your interface is hotpluggable
[06:03] <elmo> cock
[06:03] <pitti> hehe
[06:03] <pitti> http://www.nsa.gov/notices/notic00003.cfm?Address=%22%3E%3Cscript%3Ealert(%22We%20love%20our%20XSS%22)%3C/script%3E
[06:03] <pitti> so far with "security"
[06:03] <pitti> ;-)
[06:03] <Kamion> but sounds like it's some evil PCMCIA thing, which I try not to touch
[06:07] <Kamion> why does breezy's bash spin on waitpid() whenever a process exits?
[06:10] <Kamion> 11411 exit_group(0)                     = ?
[06:10] <Kamion> 11408 <... waitpid resumed> 0x7ffff188, WUNTRACED|0x8) = -1 EINVAL (Invalid argu
[06:10] <Kamion> ment)
[06:10] <Kamion> ... and then it just spins ...
[06:21] <mdz> morning
[06:21] <mdz> kiko-fud: what time is the call?
[06:22] <fabbione> morning mdz
[06:22] <mvo> good morning mdz
[06:23] <pitti> Hi mdz
[06:23] <seb128> hi mdz
[06:23] <zul> hey mdz
[06:33] <ogra> mdz, we said 13:00 utc in #ubuntu-meeting last time we met ....
[06:33] <mdz> ogra: who said 13:00 utc in #ubuntu-meeting for what meeting?
[06:35] <Kamion> uh, we did?
[06:35] <Kamion> oh, damn, we did
[06:36] <ogra> mdz, when kiko, Kaimon, me and the brazilians had the last UbuntuExpress meeting
[06:36] <ogra> Kamion, did we say a conference call ? i noted #ubuntu-meeting
[06:36] <mdz> ogra: I see
[06:37] <Kamion> 14:22 < kiko> Kamion: I would suggest setting up a weekly phone call with surak to checkpoint on how it's going
[06:38] <ogra> Kamion, ah...
[06:38] <ogra> ok, i missed that then...
[06:39] <Kamion> sorry, I suck at this management lark
[06:40] <ogra> heh... but at least you remembered the phone call... i only relied on evolutions calendar :)
[06:43] <ogra> heh, did you learn it the second time ?
[06:44] <Keybuk> I think so :)
[06:44] <fabbione> ogra: ppc and i386 kernel have been built finally
[06:44] <ogra> yay...
[06:44] <fabbione> i guess they will hit the archive at the next daily
[06:44] <jdub> gotta watch out for those barzilians
[06:44] <fabbione> ogra: "next daily" is in 20 minutes ~
[06:44] <rburton> so, hoary claims to support the dlink dwl-g650+ card but mine is clearly Not Working.
[06:44] <ogra> fabbione, yep
[06:45] <Kamion> fabbione: so should I switch d-i over?
[06:45] <fabbione> Kamion: not yet. from the next upload.
[06:45] <Kamion> i.e. are you going to have this moved to main?
[06:45] <fabbione> Kamion: yes i would like to have it moved to main from now
[06:45] <ogra> jdub, *g*
[06:45] <fabbione> Kamion: 1.4 will get d-i love and then we can switch
[06:46] <fabbione> but notice that there will be no restricted modules until 2.6.12 is final from upstream
[06:46] <fabbione> and that we are not respecting abi changes yet
[06:46] <fabbione> otherwise we will land with 12 final -3874.1
[06:46] <Kamion> in that case I'll wait for final for d-i
[06:46] <fabbione> works for me
[06:47] <fabbione> it shouldn't be too far eithery
[06:47] <fabbione> s/y$//
[06:47] <fabbione> anyway.. dinner time
[06:47] <fabbione> Kamion: do we still need to seed the kernel to get it in main? or is it enough to ask elmo now?
[06:49] <Kamion> fabbione: seed
[06:50] <fabbione> ok
[06:50] <Kamion> fabbione: until such time as linux-meta starts depending on it
[06:50] <Kamion> ... stick it in supported
[06:50] <fabbione> Kamion: ok thanks
[06:51] <fabbione> Kamion: the seed archive is still on chinstrap?
[06:52] <fabbione> never mind.. it's only slow to death :)
[07:01] <kiko-fud> mdz, I can't really recall. let me get hold of surak
[07:08] <seb128> Burgundavia: you should ask how he installed the distro
[07:15] <Burgundavia> seb128, that was my next guess
[07:16] <seb128> maybe he upgraded from Debian or used the custom install
[07:17] <seb128> which could give that, a root account and his user not configured correctly
[07:18] <Kamion> custom/server install doesn't do that, although there are other methods that could
[07:19] <seb128> which ones?
[07:26] <Kamion> seb128: expert mode
[07:26] <seb128> oh, I thought server was an alias to this one
[07:27] <seb128> k, maybe the guy used that
[07:28] <kiko-fud> Kamion, surak called and said their network is down but he will email you guys with phone numbers and email addresses
[07:29] <Kamion> kiko-fud: thanks
[07:33] <Burgundavia> Kamion, so the installer has 3 modes? normal, server and expert?
[07:33] <Nafallo> Burgundavia: four. server-expert also :-)
[07:34] <Burgundavia> ick
[07:34] <Burgundavia> people seem to like choosing expert for some reason
[07:34] <Burgundavia> validates them
[07:36] <Nafallo> s/alot/often/
[07:37] <Nafallo> hehe, just when I got doubtful about that ;-)
[07:44] <Kamion> expert's for use when an installer developer tells you to use it. :-)
[07:45] <Nafallo> Kamion: ... or for us controlfreaks that love servers? ;-)
[07:46] <Kamion> you don't need to use expert mode to install a server
[07:46] <jdub> expert mode is pants
[07:46] <Kamion> you need to use expert mode when the installer's going insane and you have a developer with you to hold your hand
[07:46] <jdub> all the cool kids *aren't* doing it ;-)
[07:47] <Nafallo> I don't need to do it; but I'm still a controlfreak. and expert gives you lot more control :-).
[07:48] <ogra> the cool kids use a magnetic pen to transfer the installation to disk ;)
[07:48] <Kamion> and expert has a lot of bugs that I pay no attention to because they don't matter enough
[07:48] <Kamion> generally duplicate questions and such
[07:49] <Kamion> but it's possible that there's actually different default behaviour (not *too* likely because of how debconf works, but possible)
[07:49] <Nafallo> Kamion: hmm, I haven't had any errors yet :-).
[07:50] <Nafallo> hmm, time to try xorg=6.8.2-20 ;-)
[07:55] <cartman> latest X.org (-20) works for anyone?
[07:59] <tseng|work> support in #ubuntu
[07:59] <tseng|work> and yes, Xorg breaks in major transitions
[08:01] <cartman> uhn ok majorly borked
[08:02] <ogra> yeah, isnt it great.... you actually *feel* the development going on :)
[08:02] <jdub> ogra: have you read any of the ipodlinux stuff?
[08:02] <jdub> ogra: they have some very interesting data transfer methods :)
[08:03] <ogra> jdub, in -users ?
[08:03] <jdub> ogra: no, the project porting linux to the ipod
[08:03] <ogra> or is there a distro i'm not yet aware of ?
[08:03] <ogra> wow, nope, not yet
[08:04] <\sh> ipod linux?
[08:04] <ogra> jdub, GO to BED ! dont make pia unhappy....
[08:04] <trukulo> jdub, good night man
[08:04] <tseng|work> bye jdub
[08:14] <shaya> is X safe again? :)
[08:15] <\sh> i think daniels uploaded -18 and went to bed ;)
[08:15] <Kamion> I'm off out for a bit; should be back before tonight's round of meetings start, though.
[08:15] <Burgundavia> -20 is the latest
[08:15] <shaya> I see -20
[08:15] <Kamion> (failing that I have my mobile phone with me)
[08:15] <\sh> oh i was asleep as well
[08:15] <Burgundavia> -20 doesn't fix the fonts issue yet
[08:16] <shaya> hmm
[08:16] <Burgundavia> but it or an eariler release fixes the binary symlink issue
[08:16] <\sh> is lubglu1-xorg and libglu-dev-xorg fixed?
[08:16] <\sh> the deps?
[08:17] <doko> \sh, yes gl is fixed
[08:18] <shaya> already downgraded to hoary X once
[08:18] <dholbach> hellas!
[08:18] <pitti> Hey dholbach
[08:19] <dholbach> hey pitti :-)
[08:19] <\sh> doko: wonderfull..so I can work on arkrpg
[08:19] <thom> doko: mozilla on ia64 seems to build ok with gcc-3.4; take it reverting to that isn't an issue?
[08:20] <Treenaks> pitti: ping?
[08:20] <doko> thom: no, I don't think so. but we should revert for ia64 only
[08:20] <Treenaks> pitti: should serial devices show up in the HAL device tree?
[08:20] <Treenaks> pitti: because they aren't
[08:21] <Treenaks> pitti: (/dev/ttySxx)
[08:21] <pitti> Treenaks: no idea, I don't have some
[08:21] <Treenaks> pitti: not even empty ports?
[08:21] <pitti> I guess hal works for you now?
[08:21] <Treenaks> pitti: yes, it stopped crashing
[08:21] <pitti> Treenaks: well, I have two serial ports in hal
[08:22] <Treenaks> hm wait..
[08:22] <pitti> Treenaks: I have a "16550A compatible COM port" with info.category == serial+
[08:22] <Treenaks> *headdesk*
[08:22] <pitti> and linux.device_file == /dev/ttyS1
[08:22] <Treenaks> sorry.. I just upgraded.. new kernel.. need to reboot first
[08:22] <pitti> hehe
[08:23] <Treenaks> 2.6.12.. unstable abi.. *grr* :)
[08:23] <Treenaks> brb
[08:23] <mdz> mjg59: ping?
[08:23] <mdz> (re: merging the hp stuff)
[08:23] <thom> doko: indeed
[08:26] <Treenaks> pitti: it works..
[08:26] <Treenaks> pitti: it looks ugly, but it works :)
[08:27] <pitti> Treenaks: define ugly?
[08:27] <Treenaks> pitti: screenshot coming up
[08:30] <Treenaks> pitti: http://foodfight.org/zut/Screenshot.png
[08:31] <Nafallo> newest Xorg didn't like me :-P
[08:31] <pitti> Treenaks: erm, what's wrong with this pic? I thought you would send me a hal-device-manager shot.. :-)
[08:32] <Treenaks> pitti: hey!
[08:32] <Treenaks> pitti: uh
[08:32] <Treenaks> wait....
[08:33] <cartman> Nafallo: it doesn't love anyone but daniels
[08:33] <Nafallo> cartman: hehe, true true ;-)
[08:33] <Treenaks> pitti: reload
[08:34] <cartman> Nafallo: were you able to start it at least? :)
[08:34] <cartman> Nafallo: xinit was sitting here
[08:34] <Nafallo> cartman: downgraded to hoary's xorg ;-)
[08:34] <cartman> ah -16 worked for me :-)
[08:35] <Nafallo> cartman: the damn thing had forgot my xorg.conf so I had to regenerate it.
[08:35] <cartman> Nafallo: ugh :/
[08:35] <pitti> Treenaks: uh, so that's where the empty string was...
[08:35] <cartman> as bad as me installing nvidia drivers everytime Xorg updates :)
[08:35] <cartman> to fix GL libs
[08:35] <Treenaks> pitti: yes
[08:36] <Treenaks> pitti: product info contains "CF CARD" "GENERIC", and 2 empty strings (it's a CF GPS in a CF-to-PCMCIA convertor)
[08:37] <Treenaks> and it has 2 serial port.. one which uses \r\n, the other only \n ... for THE SAME DATA
[08:37] <Treenaks> *headdesk*
[08:38] <Nafallo> cartman: well, when we have -21 I probably upgrade again ;-)
[08:39] <cartman> Nafallo: ah no way
[08:39] <cartman> I won't be fooled this time :)
[08:39] <cartman> xkb still borked already :/
[08:39] <Nafallo> something does _not_ look as it should.
[08:45] <doko> Kamion, lamont: in debootstrap, libgcc2 should be added for hppa
[08:47] <lamont> :-)
[09:12] <lamont> mdz/Kamion/whoever: next time someone uploads ubuntu-meta, please add hppa to the list of architectures from ports.ubuntu.com.  kthxbye
[09:12] <lamont> (eventually, it'll be far enough along with ubuntu-desktop to make it worth actually adding on its own, but would be nice to get it automated early
[09:16] <thom> lamont: does firefox install now on hppa?
[09:23] <mdz> jdub: have you worked out the schedule for gnome 2.12 yet?
[09:30] <Riddell> wouldn't it just be a copy the 2.8 schedule with the year bumped?
[09:30] <ogra> Riddell, thats not KDE ;)
[09:31] <Riddell> ogra: KDE doesn't have schedules, it's just released when we get good vibes
[09:32] <ogra> hmm, not very reliable....
[09:32] <Burgundavia> as a second to the time based one, I like inkscapes feature based one
[09:33] <AFK-Wolf> Guys, I just cleanly closed down ubuntu hoary, rebooted, and now I can't mount my / partition, grub error 17
[09:35] <HiddenWolf> can anyone give me any pionters on what the F is going on?
[09:36] <Burgundavia> HiddenWolf, this channel is for when you find a fix for it, #ubuntu is for finding that fix
[09:37] <HiddenWolf> Burgundavia, Give me any clue on what the F could have gone wrong, and I'll happily file the bug
[09:38] <opi> test installation of breezy in VMWare hurst :(
[09:40] <lamont> thom: dunno yet
[09:41] <lamont> it built
[09:41] <lamont> Setting up firefox (1.0.4-1ubuntu2) ...
[09:41] <lamont> Updating mozilla-firefox chrome registry...E: Registration process existed with status: 1
[09:41] <lamont> E: /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/extensions/installed-extensions.txt still present. Registration might
[09:41] <lamont> +have gone wrong.
[09:41] <lamont> mv: cannot stat `/usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/defaults.ini': No such file or directory
[09:41] <lamont> dpkg: error processing firefox (--configure):
[09:41] <lamont>  subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1
[09:41] <lamont> uh, no.
[09:41] <shaya> anyone running 2.6.10-5-686 here?
[09:42] <lamont> or could a corrupt chroot cause that?  that is, do I need to start with something pristene
[09:42] <lamont> ?
[09:42] <shaya> I think the kernel headers are broken
[09:42] <shaya> include/linux/version.h has #define UTS_RELEASE "2.6.10"
[09:42] <shaya> which is wrong
[09:42] <shaya> should be #define UTS_RELEASE "2.6.10-5-686"
[09:42] <lamont> really?
[09:42] <shaya> vmware refuses to compile b/c of that
[09:42] <fabbione> shaya: holdon
[09:43] <lamont> vmware built for me just fine
[09:43] <lamont> do you have linux-headers-2.6.10-5-686 installed/
[09:43] <fabbione> #define UTS_RELEASE "2.6.10-5-686"
[09:43] <\sh> Riddell: are u having sometimes hickups with amarok?
[09:43] <fabbione> no the headers are fine
[09:43] <fabbione> you are pointing to the wrong header directory
[09:43] <shaya> root@dent:/lib/modules/2.6.10-5-686/build/include/linux # dpkg --status linux-headers-2.6.10-5-686 |grep Installed
[09:43] <shaya> Installed-Size: 17604
[09:43] <Riddell> \sh: not on hoary
[09:44] <Riddell> \sh: which engine?
[09:44] <shaya> Version: 2.6.10-34
[09:44] <\sh> Riddell: some mp3s are bugging amarok...it stops responding..but no crash
[09:44] <shaya> fabbione: eh?
[09:44] <fabbione> shaya: /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.10-5-686/include/linux/version.h says otherwise
[09:44] <thom> lamont: no, unlikely to be a corrupt chroot, sadly
[09:44] <\sh> Riddell: arts
[09:44] <lamont> thom: bummer.
[09:44] <thom> lamont: oh well
[09:44] <\sh> Riddell: but xmms is running fine
[09:44] <lamont> fix that? kthxbye.
[09:44] <fabbione> shaya: #define UTS_RELEASE "2.6.10-5-686"
[09:44] <Riddell> \sh: try installing akode-mpeg from universe or use the amarok-xine engine
[09:45] <shaya> fabbione: I edited it to that
[09:45] <shaya> and it works
[09:45] <shaya> got vmware built
[09:45] <fabbione> shaya: that is out of a default install
[09:45] <\sh> riddell: i will try...
[09:45] <shaya> ?
[09:46] <shaya> should UTS_RELEASE and uname -r be the same thing?
[09:46] <fabbione> shaya: apt-get install linux-headers-2.6.10-1-686
[09:46] <lamont> more /lib/modules/2.6.10-5-686/build/include/linux/version.h
[09:46] <lamont> #define UTS_RELEASE "2.6.10-5-686"
[09:46] <lamont> and are
[09:46] <lamont> shaya: of course, this is really a #ubuntu question....
[09:46] <shaya> shrug, dont know why mine is screwed up
[09:46] <shaya> broken header package is #ubuntu?
[09:47] <lamont> shaya: did you pull headers from /usr/src. or from /lib/modules?
[09:47] <shaya> I already built vmware
[09:47] <shaya> /lib/modules
[09:47] <fabbione> lamont: the one from /lib/modules are a symlink to /usr/src
[09:47] <lamont> (this would be the channel to discuss your patch to fix the bug...)
[09:47] <shaya> reinstalling
[09:47] <shaya> I said how I fixed it
 should be #define UTS_RELEASE "2.6.10-5-686"
[09:48] <lamont> fabbione: why so it is...
[09:48] <lamont> shaya: and it is that in the package\
[09:48] <lamont> that is, there's no bug'
[09:48] <shaya> not in what I had installed
[09:48] <shaya> reinstalling and seeing what happened
[09:48] <shaya> hmm
[09:48] <shaya> reinstalled version is correct
[09:48] <fabbione> lamont: UTS "2.6.10" doesn't appeare anywhere
[09:48] <shaya> very very weird
[09:48] <fabbione> the minitmum is 2.6.10-5
[09:49] <shaya> sorry
[09:49] <fabbione> from generic headers
[09:49] <shaya> very very weird
[09:49] <lamont> shaya: np
[09:49] <fabbione> down to 2.6.10-5-$flavour
[09:49] <shaya> Q
[09:49] <shaya> why is EXTRAVERSION in the Makefile not set?
[09:49] <lamont> shaya: because that's done in the build rules
[09:50] <JaneW> REMINDER: there's a spec tech board meeting starting on the hour - 20:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
[09:50] <JaneW> s/spec/special
[09:50] <shaya> I guess modules are still installed in correct place, so not a big deal
[09:52] <mdz> tech board meeting on #ubuntu-meeting in ~10m
[09:56] <camilotelles>  /join #ubuntu-meeting
[09:56] <zul> uh not exactly
[09:57] <lamont> Kamion: I think palo will need partman-palo added to the installer seed as well.... thoughts?
[10:23] <Kamion> lamont: quite right, done
[10:32] <lamont> daniels: xscreensaver looks to be a dpkg-victim, maybe.
[10:33] <lamont> checking for X11/extensions/XScreenSaver.h... no
[10:33] <lamont> maybe not.
[10:33] <fabbione> lamont: wrong build-deps mostlikely
[10:35] <Kamion> libxss-dev
[10:35] <Kamion> or perhaps include path
[10:36] <Kamion> doesn't build-dep on libxss-dev; I'm surprised that wasn't caught in hoary
[10:45] <kiko> surak!
[10:47] <surak> kiko!
[10:47] <surak> watching what's going on at #ubuntu-meeting
[10:48] <Nafallo> surak: TB :-)
[10:48] <surak> yup :-)
[10:48] <kiko> how's it going up north, surak?
[10:49] <surak> much better today! I'm just testing it to not be embarrassed in front of all because something I forgot :-D
[10:54] <surak> kiko: do you have a spare machine to try the installer? one which the hard drive contents are not important?
[10:54] <kiko> surak, hummm. hmmmmm.
[10:54] <surak> something to screw on? :-)
[10:55] <kiko> surak, I could set one up, but that's a bit of extra work for me -- you guys don't have test boxes there?
[10:55] <surak> I suppose it can work in a virtual machine, as long as the virtual machine hard drive can be 'safely' destroyed
[10:55] <kiko> it can always be safely destroyed.
[10:55] <surak> we do
[10:55] <kiko> I have a P233 we could test on, problem is finding an intern willing to do it :)
[10:56] <surak> I'm already testing it on two of them
[10:57] <kiko> how's it looking?
[10:57] <surak> Currently it just screws the partition, unless they are windows (then I resize them)
[10:57] <Kamion> I just committed auto-resize code to partman-auto today
[10:57] <Kamion> ideally you guys would be using that
[10:58] <surak> hum
[10:58] <surak> Ill change it then
[10:59] <Kamion> figuring out how to use partman(-auto) code will be a reasonably-sized chunk of work though
[11:12] <siretart> Keybuk: I read that you are the guy who wrote MoM (merge o matic). It rocks. I wanted to have a closer look for a few local packages in a custom installation. Is the source for it available somewhere?
[11:13] <Keybuk> no, it uses a lot of code that we're planning to open source as part of the HCT project
[11:13] <Keybuk> so today it isn't available, but it will be eventually
[11:14] <seb128> Keybuk: speaking about HCT ... gdm?
[11:14] <siretart> ah. ok. but, whats HCT?
[11:14] <Keybuk> seb128: am preparing a release today/tomorrow :)
[11:14] <seb128> cool
[11:14] <Keybuk> siretart: a tool to manage source packages in revision control
[11:14] <seb128> I'm waiting on it to work on gdm ... :)
[11:15] <siretart> Keybuk: woah. sounds great!
[11:17] <surak> last testing, so I can show the script.
[11:17] <srbaker> how do i ask dpkg what package owns /usr/lib/libGL.so ?
[11:17] <srbaker> i forget
[11:17] <Keybuk> srbaker: dpkg -S
[11:18] <srbaker> that,s i kept trying dpkg -L
[11:18] <Keybuk> siretart: and, to be honest, is isn't that hi-tech; it basically downloads three packages and does some diff/patch to make a fourth
[11:19] <siretart> Keybuk: jupp. but the output is nice, and I don't want to reinvent the wheel ;)
[11:23] <kiko> surak, woo woo
[11:24] <surak> kiko: Let me finish the grub process and I'll paste the partition destructor over here :-)
[11:25] <surak> hum... I wrote something in portuguese. bad bad bad.
[11:25] <ogra> :)
[11:26] <ogra> but at least some cool icons come to my mind for that name :)
[11:26] <surak>  /s/destructor/ubuntu-express-installer :-)
[11:26] <ogra> hehe
[11:27] <kiko> partition destroyer, hmm, has an interesting ring
[11:27] <mdz> mvo: ping?
[11:27] <mvo> mdz: pong
[11:27] <kiko> mdz!
[11:27] <mdz> mvo: what patchlevel should I merge to get the current apt in breezy?
[11:27] <mvo> mdz: just get all of apt--fixes--0
[11:27] <kiko> mvo, did you reach closure on the directory output crud?
[11:28] <mvo> kiko: mdz is the last authority here :)
[11:28] <srbaker> ubuntu-express-installer?  what's that/
[11:29] <dholbach> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress iirc :-)
[11:29] <surak> its your personal partition destructor :-D
[11:29] <srbaker> huh.
[11:30] <srbaker> *my* personal partition destructor comes in a twelve pack of bottles
[11:30] <surak> will, it's being my one for a week now..
[11:31] <ogra> surak, i'll take over after you destroyed all your disks then ;) to make a nice ui
[11:31] <surak> the damage is much more recoverable whan a 12-pack :-) as least in my test machines
[11:32] <mdz> mvo: ok. also, will the apt transition be completed today?
[11:32] <mdz> kiko!
[11:32] <mdz> mvo: I can't seem to get all of apt/synaptic/aptitude/etc. upgraded together
[11:32] <mdz> aptitude still depends on libsigc++-1.2-5c102
[11:32] <surak>  /s/whan/than
[11:32] <mdz> mvo: that's otavio's apt--fixes, or yours?
[11:32] <ogra> Kamion, ping ?
[11:32] <mvo> mdz: my fixes branch
[11:33] <mvo> mdz: I carefully picked the good bits out of otavios branch, not all of it was ready
[11:34] <mvo> mdz: aptitude upgrade seems to work for me, I get <IP_ADDRESS>ubuntu4, what's your version?
[11:34] <surak> something I was to ask for days: should a user be created or the ubuntu one is fine?
[11:35] <Kamion> ogra: pong
[11:35] <Kamion> surak: ubuntu user should be removed and a new one created with proper name and password
[11:35] <ogra> Kamion, seed change for mono ? do we have to upload again for that ?
[11:35] <Kamion> the installer has code to do the latter
[11:35] <Kamion> ogra: no, you don't need to upload
[11:35] <ogra> great
[11:36] <Kamion> lamont: (xlibmesa-glu-* shows up in rene's partial NBS list)
[11:37] <Kamion> ogra: what packages need to be seeded into main?
[11:37] <ogra> Kamion, we are still discussing the apps, but for now mono and gtk-sharp are a go....
[11:37] <ogra> tseng, ping
[11:37] <tseng> ogra: pong.
[11:37] <tseng>  + monodoc
[11:38] <ogra> ah, yes....
[11:38] <tseng> that will be pulled in as a gtk-sharp dep possibly
[11:38] <ogra> tseng, anything we additionally need for dbus ?
[11:38] <tseng> i havent really read up on the seeds
[11:38] <ogra> oh, gecko-sharp for aure
[11:38] <ogra> sure
[11:38] <tseng> ogra: no we need mono-in-main
[11:38] <tseng> yes
[11:38] <tseng> we can ignore gtksourceview-sharp1 i think
[11:38] <tseng> since no one is using it afaik
[11:39] <ogra> yep
[11:39] <Kamion> don't think about it too hard, just list the packages you want and don't worry about dependencies in general
[11:39] <Kamion> as in the top-level packages
[11:39] <ogra> Kamion, i'll mail you a list then
[11:39] <robertj> if mono geos in main, does beagle as well?
[11:39] <ogra> yep
[11:39] <tseng> robertj: we will see what 0.0.10 looks like
[11:39] <ogra> and probably some other mono apps
[11:39] <Kamion> robertj: not automatically, but it's a major part of the rationale for mono-in-main
[11:39] <tseng> i am confident it will be alot more sane
[11:40] <tseng> and I can propose for main at that time
[11:40] <tseng> im not comfortable with the dbus version as it stands
[11:40] <tseng> all indications are beagle will be much more stable soon.
[11:40] <robertj> why not stick in the dbus and then drop out in a month if things are looking bad?
[11:41] <robertj> err dbus version
[11:41] <ogra> robertj, because half of our system depends on dbus
[11:41] <tseng> heh yes :)
[11:41] <ogra> at least on the desktop
[11:42] <robertj> ogra: but dbus doesn't die a horrible death if beagle misbehaves does it?
[11:42] <ogra> robertj, nope, but we cant just juggle with the versions here.... even with mono in main goes a bigger responsibility then in universe
[11:43] <tarvid> my 3c556b card throws vortex_probe1 fails. Returns -22. Any hope of debugging that?
[11:43] <ogra> since it has to be supportable for 18 months
[11:43] <surak> Kamion: I need now to worry with what happens after the machine boots - everything is borked.
[11:43] <robertj> ogra: yes, but what I'm saying is that if it goes in now, and we have to revert to fam in a month, that should still leave plenty of time for things to fall into place, no?
[11:43] <kiko> mdz, when will you have time to give me a ring? :)
[11:44] <ogra> robertj, fam ?
[11:44] <tseng> jdub: new gamin, dude.
[11:44] <ogra> robertj, fam is dead since hoary....
[11:44] <Kamion> surak: need a bit more detail to help :-)
[11:44] <robertj> ogra: errr, fam++
[11:44] <robertj> inotify
[11:44] <ogra> robertj, even inotify is fine....
[11:45] <ogra> no need to worry about that....
[11:45] <tseng> inotify is fine in breezy
[11:45] <ogra> kiko, you want to marry ?
[11:45] <robertj> and beagle does play nice with just inotify now?
[11:45] <ogra> yep
[11:46] <robertj> so why not have that as the fallback position, try for something a bit more aggresive, and bail out in a set timeframe if its a no-go
[11:46] <tseng> we need to update gamin first
[11:46] <tseng> before even talking about it.
[11:46] <tseng> the gamin inotify backend in the current ubuntuized package is pretty suck
[11:46] <tseng> the new one is much improved
[11:47] <robertj> (speaking of suck...I got Tiger today and Spotlight is kinda sucky as well)
[11:47] <tseng> i would be comfortable proposing turning inotify back on for breezy once we get that in..
[11:47] <tseng> really up to kernel team
[11:47] <robertj> Technically it's fine but it doesn't query any non-local backends for the address book and that sort of thing
[11:48] <Kamion> I thought inotify'd already been turned back on in the 2.6.12 kernel packages
[11:48] <Kamion> ?
[11:48] <ogra> yep it has
[11:48] <tseng> i didnt notice that in the changelogs, but its quite possible
[11:48] <zul> Kamion: it has
[11:48] <tseng> hm great.
[11:52] <srbaker> whoa.  joey's a little bitter today.
[11:56] <JaneW> quick question and please don;t point me to #ubuntu but if I set my laptop to hibernate in ubuntu, when I restart must I use the normal boot up or recovery mode?
[11:56] <elmo> JaneW: #ubuntu
[11:56] <surak> :-)
[11:56] <tseng> elmo: cold.
[11:56] <Kamion> JaneW: normal
[11:56] <elmo> janew: [you realise I stopped reading after "don't point me to #ubuntu right? :-P]
[11:57] <Kamion> recovery mode basically just boots into single-user mode
[11:57] <JaneW> elmo: knew you would, it was  decoy :P
[11:58] <JaneW> ok, think is I never get out of hibernate mode smoothly, and certainly not if I change networks in between...
[11:58] <JaneW> s/think/thing
[11:58] <mako> community council meeting in a few minutes in #ubuntu-meeting


[17:13] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: two hours later than when?
[17:13] <pleia2> 5:30 EDT or 8:30 EDT?
[17:13] <pleia2> er, it's EST on Nov 1st
[17:14] <pleia2> anyway, there are two times proposed, which were you referring to? :)
[21:38] <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: 8:30 EDT
[21:38] <bodhi_zazen> Weekends are family time for me
[21:39] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: so you'd be able to do it at 10:30?
[21:40] <bodhi_zazen> yes, I would be a bit late