[06:45] <StevenK> WTB reviewer, PST
[07:07] <wallyworld> StevenK: ?
[07:08] <StevenK> wallyworld: WoW-ism, it expands into "Want To Buy reviewer, Please Send Tell"
[07:09] <StevenK> Where tell is a WoW-ism for privmsg
[07:09] <wallyworld> StevenK: does that mean you want a review to do? :-)
[07:09] <wallyworld> trivial one: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~wallyworld/launchpad/oops-bug-filing-location/+merge/44005
[07:09]  * StevenK stabs wallyworld
[07:09] <StevenK> No, I want someone to review one of MINE!
[07:10] <wallyworld> it's really trivial - change launchpad-code to launchpad in 3 places
[07:10] <wallyworld> tick and flick really
[07:10] <wallyworld> sorry
[07:10] <wallyworld> no, i am, really :-)
[07:10] <StevenK> +1
[07:10] <wallyworld> thanks :-)
[07:11] <StevenK> Are you a mentat reviewer, or not yet>
[07:11] <StevenK> s/\>/?/
[07:11] <wallyworld> no, not yet
[07:11] <StevenK> s/\(mentat\) \(reviewer\)/\2 (\1)/
[07:12] <wallyworld> btw, i know the urls redirect but there was a bug and it is bugjam :-)
[07:12] <wgrant> Excuses, excuses.
[07:13] <wallyworld> StevenK: so shouldn;t there be an on call reviewer around? the channel topic always seems blank
[07:13] <wallyworld> i have another mp too but the sound of crickets is quite loud
[07:16] <wgrant> wallyworld: This is APac.
[07:16] <wgrant> There is no good OCR coverage yet.
[07:16] <wgrant> But this should change in 6 months, when there are three more...
[07:17] <wallyworld> wgrant: sure. maybe i don't recall seeing the topic set in the evenings or early mornings AEST
[07:17] <StevenK> I see it early mornings from the US people
[07:18] <StevenK> Or jelmer, if he forgot to edit the topic
[07:18] <wgrant> Well, a few weeks ago the UK would have been awake by this time.
[07:18] <wgrant> But DST makes me cry.
[07:18]  * wallyworld needs to find some glasses
[07:18] <wallyworld> i love dst :-) wish we had it :-(
[07:19] <StevenK> Queensland is broken, find a better state.
[07:20] <wallyworld> can't beat the climate though
[07:20] <wgrant> Too hot :(
[07:20] <wallyworld> only if you're soft :-)
[07:28] <wgrant> Only 9.2EB of data left :(
[07:29] <StevenK> "Only"
[09:37] <henninge> danilos: were you aware of assert statements being deprecated now?
[09:41] <henninge> bac: are assert statements really deprecated now? Were do I read about that?
[09:41] <henninge> bac: and Hi! ;)
[09:46] <danilos> henninge, I didn't
[09:46] <henninge> I am not sure that is true ...
[09:49] <danilos> henninge, https://dev.launchpad.net/PythonStyleGuide
[09:49] <danilos> henninge, which points to https://dev.launchpad.net/AssertionsInLaunchpad
[09:49] <henninge> yes, reading that
[09:50] <henninge> it's a year old and describing how they can be used
[09:50] <henninge> my reviewer just sounded like there is a newer guideline.
[09:52] <danilos> henninge, our style guide uses them for a few examples as well, and doesn't explicitely forbid them so use them :)
[09:53] <danilos> henninge, also, with python's dynamic typing, it'd be very weird to do away with them
[09:53] <henninge> danilos: the suggestion was to turn this particular one into a Value error.
[09:54] <henninge> if side is None:
[09:54] <henninge>     raise ValueError("Translation side must be specified").
[09:54] <danilos> henninge, if that particular assertion would be hit as a cause of programmer error, it should stay an assertion imo
[09:54] <henninge> danilos: yes, that is my impression, too.
[09:54] <henninge> glad we agree ;-)
[09:55] <danilos> henninge, well, valueerror in an OOPS would not make much sense, and would, arguably, be catchable in callsites
[09:55] <danilos> henninge, assertionerrors should never be handled in call sites so we'd know a developer has made an error
[09:56] <henninge> danilos: I never said I liked the suggestions, I was just wondering why he said that asserts are deprecated now.
[09:56] <henninge> I'll be interested in his answer
[09:56] <danilos> henninge, oh, I don't know that, but let me consult my crystal ball... I'll let you take a peak as well :)
[09:57] <henninge> well, I could also call him to wake him and ask him ... ;-)
[09:57] <henninge> some kind of crystal ball that would be ...
[10:05] <StevenK> Is there any reviewer up for a short one?
[10:16] <henninge> Looks like abel is not around any more.
[10:16] <henninge> StevenK: what have you got?
[10:16] <StevenK> I suspect he is off sick still
[10:17] <StevenK> henninge: https://code.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/p3a-description-fix/+merge/44013 +8/-9
[10:17] <henninge> oh, didn't know he was
[10:17] <henninge> +8/-9? Too big! :-P
[10:17] <StevenK> Haha
[10:22] <henninge> StevenK: You also fixed two long lines, right? Or are those that part of the actual fix?
[10:23] <StevenK> henninge: Before and after they fix they are one-char off
[10:24] <henninge> ???
[10:24] <henninge> I meant these:
[10:24] <henninge> 32	-    "PPA named p3a for Celso Providelo" (ppa:cprov/p3a), which is hosted
[10:24] <henninge> 33	-    by Launchpad and has the following description:
[10:24] <henninge> 34	+    "PPA named p3a for Celso Providelo" (ppa:cprov/p3a), which is hosted by
[10:24] <henninge> 35	+    Launchpad and has the following description:
[10:24] <henninge> that is just cosmetic, not part of the fix, right?
[10:24] <StevenK> henninge: Oh, sorry. Those had to be changed due to turning on -NORMALIZE_WHITESPACE
[10:24] <StevenK> Well, turning off ... :-)
[10:25] <henninge> oh, to match the lines breaks in the actual message? I see
[10:25] <StevenK> Yes, it's icky :-(
[10:25] <henninge> StevenK: thanks for the fix. r=me ;)
[10:25] <StevenK> henninge: Thanks! :-)
[12:56] <danilos> StevenK, hi, considering you are likely the only soyuz guy around, would you mind reviewing https://code.launchpad.net/~danilo/launchpad/bug-685624/+merge/44035 (it's very short, I am just worried that I don't break anything)
[13:04] <bac> good morning launchpad
[13:04] <bac> checking in for my last review shift of 2010!
[13:09] <danilos> bac, I've got one for you then :)
[13:09] <danilos> https://code.launchpad.net/~danilo/launchpad/bug-685624/+merge/44035
[13:09] <bac> danilos: ok
[13:12] <gmb> Hi bac, I've got a couple of branches that need reviewing. Can I stick them in the queue?
[13:12] <bac> gmb: sure
[13:12]  * bac misses abel
[13:37] <salgado> folks, kiko has bribed me into doing a trivial fix to allow the drivers of a blueprint's target to edit that bp, but I'm off to catch a plane soon and after that I'll be completely deprived of 'net access, so I was wondering if anybody would be willing to land that branch for me?
[13:37] <salgado> the merge-proposal is https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~salgado/launchpad/target-driver-edit-blueprint/+merge/44046
[13:38] <danilos> bac, I am thinking of heading off for some food, I assume there are no big questions that you've got?
[13:40] <bac> danilos: the branch looks good
[13:41] <bac> danilos: the description was much more complicated than the code, which is quite simple.
[13:41] <danilos> bac, right, it was quite an exercise for me to get to understand exactly what's going on and to see if we can try to get at TTB from a TTBJ without storing the data; complexity of the model didn't help there, just like the fact that TTBJ is serving two different purposes didn't
[13:42] <danilos> bac, I am expecting to have fun time QAing this though :)
[13:42] <bac> danilos: yeah, good luck with that.  what is the ETA for cleaning this up for good?
[13:42] <danilos> bac, wgrant mentioned how he'd like to get it all switched to the new model maybe as early as next week
[13:42] <bac> wow!
[13:43] <danilos> bac, I am morally supporting him :)
[13:43] <danilos> bac, for someone who understands well exactly what's going on where it's mostly just moving code around, afaiu
[13:43] <danilos> (missing comma warning :)
[13:44] <danilos> ...what's going on where *,* it's...
[13:44] <bac> danilos: r=bac
[13:44] <danilos> bac, thanks
[13:45] <bac> salgado: i'll look at it.  if no substantial changes are required i can land it
[13:45] <salgado> bac, great, thanks!
[13:46] <bac> salgado: have a nice trip
[13:46] <salgado> bac, I might even be able to do the changes if you review it now.  it's just getting it through ec2 that I won't be able to
[13:50] <jcsackett> bac, mind if throw https://code.launchpad.net/~jcsackett/launchpad/linkifier-bugs-2/+merge/43980 on your queue?
[13:51] <bac> jcsackett: sure
[13:51] <jcsackett> thanks.
[13:52] <jcsackett> henninge: your branch from yesterday is r=me for code*; i have requested review from sinzui for follow up. nice start on that clean up. :-)
[13:52] <bac> salgado: r=bac with one tiny fix
[13:52] <bac> salgado: are you leaving for the holidays or a work trip?  will you be around to QA it?
[13:52] <henninge> jcsackett: thank you! ;)
[13:55] <salgado> bac, good catch;  I'm leaving on holidays.  if I get instructions to QA it, would you be kind enough to do it for me?  if not I can see if somebody from Linaro can do it
[13:56] <bac> salgado: i can QA it for you.  i'll subscribe to the bug.  please update the MP with a commit message.
[13:56] <salgado> oh, I need to file a bug as well
[13:58] <salgado> bac, have we moved all bugs to launchpad yet?
[13:58] <salgado> looks like we did
[13:59] <bac> salgado: yes we did
[14:02] <salgado> bac, ok, bug filed, linked to branch and security adapter renamed.  should I add QA instructions on the bug or mp?
[14:04] <bac> salgado: uh, MP i guess
[14:04] <bac> gmb: hey it does not look like we have a dependency on lxml
[14:05] <gmb> Rats.
[14:06] <gmb> That's damnably irritating.
[14:06] <bac> gmb: yep.
[14:06] <gmb> bac: So we've three options:
[14:06] <gmb> 1) Regexes (urgh)
[14:07] <gmb> 2) BeautifulSoup (performance problems)
[14:07] <gmb> 3) Bug someone to make lxml a dependency.
[14:07] <gmb> 3 is annoying but I'd rather do that than take the performance hit.
[14:07] <bac> 3a) And get it deployed
[14:07] <gmb> Yes, that too :)
[14:07] <bac> WWmthaddonD?
[14:08] <gmb> Heh.
[14:08] <gmb> bac: Do you know to whom I need to talk to get it made into a dependency?
[14:08] <bac> [flacoste, gary, mars] maybe?
[14:08] <gmb> Righto, I shall talk to one of the above.
[14:09] <bac> getting _new will be great but i think landing the tabindex branch is more urgent
[14:09] <gmb> bac: There is no tabindex branch at the moment.
[14:10] <gmb> It's a truly horrible problem
[14:10] <bac> oh, i was kindof hoping your other branch in queue was it
[14:10] <gmb> No, sorry :/
[14:10] <bac> i'm just worried about poor dustin having an aneurysm
[14:10] <gmb> Well, naturally. As am I. I don't want to be at the platform rally and have his head explode all over me.
[14:11] <gmb> Lessee how quickly I can get the dependency problem sorted.
[14:11] <bac> i think an uncontained aneurysm is fairly rare
[14:11] <gmb> But he was *really* cross...
[14:11] <bac> of course they said that about jet engines before RR proved them wrong
[14:11] <gmb> This is true.
[14:12] <gmb> And as we know, all engineers are just basically machines for producing code.
[14:12] <gmb> ... this is going down a rabbit hole.
[14:12] <bac> yes
[14:12] <bac> well i'll continue on with the review then
[14:12] <gmb> Cool, thanks.
[14:12]  * gary_poster looks around to try and figure out what's up
[14:13] <deryck> gmb: I think the dependency issue is as easy as building a tarball of lxml, adding it to download-cache, and then adding lxml == FOO to versions.cfg.
[14:13] <deryck> gary_poster can confirm ^^
[14:13] <deryck> or deny ;)
[14:13] <bac> deryck: really?  can't it just be added to launchpad-dependencies?
[14:13] <gmb> Ooo.
[14:14] <deryck> bac: I thought for python libs we preferred buildout.
[14:14] <bac> deryck: oh there's that
[14:14] <bac> that's why my name was not in the list
[14:14] <deryck> maybe I'm nosing my way into a topic I don't really know enough about :-)
[14:15]  * gmb summons gary_poster to add his $0.02...
[14:15] <bac> gary_poster: the only other lxml in our code base is in migrater tools, not production code
[14:15] <gary_poster> we prefer Python eggs, but lxml egg is really annoying to build
[14:15] <gary_poster> gotcha bac
[14:15] <deryck> ah, right, I had heard that about lxml
[14:16]  * deryck has never actually built lxml
[14:16]  * gary_poster has, and has the scars to prove it
[14:16] <benji> run away! run away!
[14:16] <gary_poster> :-)
[14:16] <deryck> heh
[14:16]  * deryck runs away now
[14:17] <gary_poster> lemme remember how to look at our deb dependencies and I'll report back gmb.  1 sec
[14:17] <gmb> gary_poster: Thanks.
[14:18] <bac> good new gmb.  your tests pass now.  :)
[14:18] <gmb> Heh
[14:18]  * bac blames his poor spelling on frigid fingers which he blames on a horrible sanyo heat pump
[14:20] <gary_poster> gmb, we did use to have lxml as a deb dependency.  It was dropped Thu, 10 Sep 2009 "(tests run fine without)"
[14:20] <gmb> Hah
[14:20] <gmb> I hereby repudiate that statment.
[14:20] <gary_poster> :-)
[14:20] <henninge> bac: Is it ok if I  append my mp to the queue?
[14:20] <bac> yes, of course
[14:21] <henninge> bac: thanks
[14:21] <gary_poster> so, I can point you to how to update the deb dependecies, or you can ping me to do it...next week.  Or *maybe* this afternoon.  kinda booked right now.
[14:21] <gary_poster> gmb: ^^
[14:21]  * gary_poster tries to find doc link meanwhile
[14:21] <gmb> gary_poster: Feel free to point me at it and I'll give it a shot.
[14:21] <gary_poster> cool
[14:23] <gary_poster> gmb https://dev.launchpad.net/Hacking#Changing%20the%20launchpad%20dependency%20debs
[14:23] <gmb> Thanks
[14:23] <gary_poster> np.  I'm no expert, but I've done it before gmb, so I can at least stare at a problem with you :-)
[14:24] <gmb> gary_poster: Cool, thanks. I'll ping you if I run into difficulties.
[14:31] <bac> gmb: review done with one suggestion, other than the obvious.
[14:32] <gmb> Cool, thanks.
[14:38] <flacoste> gmb: did you solve your problem?
[14:40] <gmb> flacoste: Yes, I think so. Well, we'll see shortly anyway.
[14:48] <abentley> bac, could you please review https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/launchpad/email-url-body/+merge/43838 ?
[14:48] <bac> sure, abentley, chunk it on the queue
[14:49] <abentley> bac, thanks.
[15:19] <gmb> bac: I've replied to your review and uploaded a new version of launchpad-dependencies, which is building now.
[15:20] <bac> gmb: thanks
[15:23] <bac> jcsackett: is 'blacklist' the best word to use in that context?  it seems you're just trying to find the URLs that match a pattern but they aren't blacklisted, which has a specific, loaded connotation to me.
[15:23] <jcsackett> bac: i'm open to other names; i was thinking blacklist in a proxy sense--these URIs don't count/aren't linked.
[15:24] <bac> 'ignored'?
[15:24] <jcsackett> bac: if that works better for you, i'm happy to make that change.
[15:28] <danilos> henninge, fwiw, you still seem to have left some changes to credits handling which made the side context sensitive instead of explicitely using UPSTREAM as the side
[15:29] <danilos> henninge, I am thinking of line 640 (so, tests)
[15:30] <bac> jcsackett: can you explain what handle_parens_in_trailers is doing?
[15:31] <bac> it really needs a docstring and explanation
[15:31] <jcsackett> bac: happy to provide comments in it--i had some and must have deleted them.
[15:31] <danilos> henninge, I am talking about https://code.launchpad.net/~henninge/launchpad/db-devel-688519-getusedtranslationmessage/+merge/43924, fwiw ;)
[15:32] <jcsackett> bac: basically, it's capturing closing parens out of the trailers from the url and adding them to the url if there is an unpaired open paren in the url.
[15:32] <jcsackett> this deals with http://wikipedia.org/something_(some_catagory) style urls.
[15:33] <jcsackett> right now the trailing paren is dropped, and without restructuring the entire regex there's no real way to capture the last parens if and only if there are a like number of unpaired opens in the url.
[15:33] <bac> jcsackett: so were the closing parens incorrectly characterized as trailers and are being moved back to the url proper?
[15:33] <jcsackett> bac: yes.
[15:33] <bac> oh, ok
[15:33] <jcsackett> bac: if there are unpaired open parens in the url, the closing paren in the trailer is put back in the url.
[15:33] <bac> jcsackett: i see now
[15:34] <bac> jcsackett: but if all the missing parens are not at the beginning of the trailers then it doesn't work so well, right?
[15:35] <bac> b/c you break out of the loop at the first non-)
[15:35] <jcsackett> bac: the way the regex is structured, there should only be relevant closing ones at the end. if the trailer had text &c in it first it wouldn't close of the url there.
[15:36] <jcsackett> in reality, this should only ever capture one paren, but i wanted to cover something like http:///thisurl.com/has_(too_many(parens)) as long as i was handling it.
[15:37] <jcsackett> bac: i'll modify the test to double check some more irritating combinations are also handled right.
[15:37] <bac> jcsackett: what would this do?
[15:37] <bac> (http://example.com/path_(with_parens)and_stuff)
[15:37] <bac> would the extra be part of the url?  trailer is only punctuation, right?
[15:38] <jcsackett> bac: good question. i'll add that example to the text case.
[15:38] <bac> yes, please make some corner case tests for that method
[15:38] <jcsackett> bac: my intuition is that http://example.com/path_(with_parens)and_stuff would be linkified, and the surrounding parens would not.
[15:39] <jcsackett> obviously, if the user typos and "and stuff" shouldn't be part of the URI, there's no way to handle that.
[15:39] <bac> jcsackett: i approved the branch but have several suggestions
[15:39] <bac> included in the MP
[15:40] <jcsackett> bac: when you say plain english for the regex, you mean the enormous _re_linkify?
[15:40] <jcsackett> b/c speaking plainly, i still have no idea what some of it does. :-P
[15:41] <bac> jcsackett: no, the trailers regex that i asked you to relocate
[15:41] <jcsackett> bac:ah, i see. i got mixed up.
[15:41] <bac> were it closer to its use it would be less confusing
[15:42] <bac> jcsackett: looking at that regex with all punctuation i cannot recall which are things to be matched and which are special regex chars
[15:43] <henninge> danilos: well, since the factory produces upstream templates, the side will be UPSTREAM. So the test ist not really side sensitive. It also checks the flags directly instead of using getFlag.
[15:43] <henninge> danilos: so, are you saying this should be fixed before I can land this?
[15:43] <danilos> henninge, right, but the way the test is written it will fail if we change the factory method
[15:44] <henninge> are we going to change it?
[15:44] <danilos> henninge, we are not planning to, no, but the test is sometimes used as a documentation as well, and now it implies that setTranslationCreditsAsTranslated might be side-aware when it's not
[15:45] <danilos> (well, it is, in the sense that it will always use the UPSTREAM side)
[15:48] <bac> gmb: remind me how to get your subscription widget tests to run
[15:53] <bac> gmb: i hate to do it, but i'm going to pass on your branch.  i don't think i can add anything of value.  please find a reviewer with more JS experience.
[15:56] <gmb> bac: Okay, no worries. I do the same thing quite often :)
[15:58] <gmb> allenap, deryck: Would either of you be able to review my JS branch for the subscriptions widget?
[15:59] <deryck> gmb: I can
[15:59] <gmb> deryck: Cool, thanks. https://code.launchpad.net/~gmb/launchpad/use-subscribe-form-for-fun-and-profit-bug-687747/+merge/43629
[15:59]  * deryck looks
[16:02] <salgado> bac, thanks a lot for taking care of that branch for me.   kiko said he's going to ping you once it lands to help with QA, if needed
[16:02] <bac> salgado: ok.  is it ready to land now?
[16:02] <salgado> bac, yep, I've done the change you suggested
[16:02] <bac> ok
[16:03] <bac> salgado: have a good holiday.
[16:03] <salgado> bac, thanks!  you too
[16:04] <bac> salgado: sending to ec2 now
[16:11] <bac> henninge: but *why* are leading '/' in filenames bad?
[16:11] <henninge> bac: it's about consistency
[16:12] <henninge> bac: we normalize on no leading '/'
[16:12] <henninge> so that they stay comparable.
[16:12] <henninge> also, tar usually strips leading slashes off file names unless you tell it not to.
[16:13] <bac> henninge: ok, i see
[16:14] <jcsackett> bac: when you get a chance, there's a comment in reply to part of your comments on my MP; i've got to run out for a bit.
[16:14] <bac> jcsackett: ok
[16:14] <henninge> bac: it's also  a bit dangerous to have leading slashes in tarballs. If not careful you might unpack your files into system directories.
[16:15] <henninge> of course, only if you'd be working as root ...
[16:15] <bac> henninge: yeah, tbh i forgot we were talking about tarballs...
[16:16] <henninge> bac: thanks for the review ;)
[16:16] <deryck> gmb: looks good to me.  Nice tests.  I'll add a comment to the MP for getting prettier CSS temporarily, but otherwise, this looks fine. r=me
[16:16] <gmb> deryck: Thanks,.
[16:16] <deryck> gmb: np
[16:24] <gmb> deryck: Thank you for explaining that godawful logger
[16:24] <gmb> I spent ages trying to work that out
[16:24] <gmb> (and then I just maximized firebug and logged directly to the JS console :))
[16:24] <deryck> gmb: heh, np.  It's not documented anywhere as far as I know.
[16:24] <deryck> it is awful, and I hope to fix something up for it long term.
[16:42] <henninge> where did salgado go?
[16:43] <henninge> EdwinGrubbs: Are you up for a UI review?
[16:44] <EdwinGrubbs> henninge: I can do it in a little while. Isn't there a UI mentee that needs some more practice?
[16:44] <henninge> EdwinGrubbs: oh, you have graduated? Missed that. ;)
[16:45]  * henninge updates wiki page
[16:45] <henninge> Congrats!
[16:46] <EdwinGrubbs> henninge: actually, I don't think I have graduated, but I also don't have a mentor.
[16:46]  * henninge reverts
[16:46] <henninge> EdwinGrubbs: I could do that for you, if you want.
[16:48] <henninge> Anyway, that does not help in this case.
[16:48] <EdwinGrubbs> henninge:  I can start on it in about 30 minutes.
[16:50] <henninge> EdwinGrubbs: ok, let me prepare the mp.
[16:56] <danilos> bac, one more up: https://code.launchpad.net/~danilo/launchpad/bug-676011/+merge/44066 :)
[17:06] <bac> danilos: looks good
[17:07] <danilos> bac, thanks
[17:08]  * bac -> lunch
[17:17] <henninge> EdwinGrubbs: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~henninge/launchpad/devel-bugjamming-1/+merge/44070
[17:17]  * EdwinGrubbs looks
[17:17] <henninge> EdwinGrubbs: please look for the implementation details to see the screen shots.
[17:18] <henninge> sinzui: are you able to mentor Edwin's ui review?
[17:18] <sinzui> henninge, I can, but I am off to a hair cut for lunch. Can you wait 90 minutes?
[17:19] <henninge> sinzui: I will be off, too. I will look at the replies later tonight.
[17:19] <henninge> EdwinGrubbs: please forward to sinzui for mentoring.
[17:19] <EdwinGrubbs> ok
[17:59] <danilos> (I've put up another very simple branch up for review which solves an OOPS that we've seen 857 times yesterday because of the 'rosetta' product being removed)
[18:00] <danilos> 6 lines changed total, anybody up for a review?
[18:00] <bac> danilos:  yep
[18:01] <danilos> bac, it's up at https://code.launchpad.net/~danilo/launchpad/bug-691634/+merge/44077
[18:01] <bac> 180 OOPS/line -- pretty goo
[18:03] <danilos> bac, yeah :)
[18:03] <danilos> bac, I've also filed a separate bug 691646 to get rid of the 'rosetta' product from the sampledata (including test sampledata) to see if something else breaks as well when we mirror our production state today
[18:04] <_mup_> Bug #691646: Remove 'rosetta' product from the sampledata <lp-translations> <tech-debt> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/691646 >
[18:05] <bac> thanks danilos
[18:13] <bac> sinzui:  your css file has a conflcit
[18:13] <bac> conflict
[18:25] <danilos> bac, ta, cheers
[21:20] <flacoste> gary_poster: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~flacoste/launchpad/bug-688503/+merge/44102
[21:21] <gary_poster> got it flacoste.
[21:21] <flacoste> sorry about the wrapping
[21:22] <flacoste> seems that my editor wraps a little after the code page :-/
[21:22] <flacoste> i should probably turn off auto-wrapping with lp-propose
[21:22] <flacoste> and i'm missing the special body plugin
[21:39] <gary_poster> flacoste, do you already know what signal we use for log rotation?  I was going to try and investigate, but if you know, there's no need
[21:40] <gary_poster> eh, maybe sigusr1 :-P
[21:41] <gary_poster> sigusr2
[21:41] <gary_poster> anyway, no conflicts, which was all I was worried about
[21:46] <flacoste> gary_poster: right, i checked for existing signals
[21:46] <flacoste> that's also a reason i split this into two modules
[21:46] <flacoste> sighup and haproxy
[21:46] <flacoste> since we already have a sigusr1 and sigusr2 modules
[21:46] <gary_poster> gotcha
[21:48] <gary_poster> flacoste: approved.  You could update the PPR heading, but I don't think it matters much.  You need me to QA this next week?
[21:48] <flacoste> gary_poster: yes, please
[21:48] <gary_poster> coool, will do
[21:49] <flacoste> thanks and enjoy your week-end!
[21:49] <gary_poster> thanks :-) have a great vacation
[21:49] <flacoste> thank you
[21:54] <bac> and that concludes my OCR duties for 2010.  have a great weekend.


[02:17] <twb> Are beagles armv7?
[02:18] <twb> (f17 arm was released recently and I was idly wondering what their minimum hw target was.)
[02:23] <infinity> twb: Beagles are v7.
[02:23] <infinity> twb: Their armhf port is v7-vfp-d16, same as ours.
[02:23] <infinity> twb: However, theirs is binary incompatible, because they didn't sort out the cross-distro liker mess in time. :/
[02:24] <twb> Hehe
[02:24] <twb> Fortunately I can be idly curious because I don't have to babysit FC boxes anymore :-)
[09:43] <ronoc> ogra_, ping
[10:02] <ronoc> ogra_, pinga ring
[11:18] <ogra_> ronoc, yo, sorry, had an early lunch
[11:18] <ronoc> no worries
[11:19] <ronoc> ogra_, timR is out now
[11:19] <ronoc> ogra_, later when he comes back I'll do some introductions if you don't mind
[11:19] <ogra_> fine, yeah
[11:19] <ronoc> ogra_, thanks
[11:53] <tim_> ogra_, ronoc, hi, just noticed this
[11:53] <ronoc> hey tim_
[11:54] <tim_> hey
[11:54] <ronoc> ogra_, this is my mate tim_ i was speaking to you about
[11:54] <ronoc> gumstix audio issues
[11:54] <tim_> Hello ogra_!
[11:56] <ronoc> tim_, do you have your notifications turned on
[11:56] <tim_> not sure, don't ususally use IRC
[11:59] <ronoc> tim_, when I write tim_ the icon on your panel should go blue or something
[11:59] <ronoc> what client are you using
[12:11] <ogra_> tim_, hey
[12:12] <tim_> ogra_ hi!
[12:12] <ogra_> so you got sound issues i heard
[12:13] <tim_> yep should we switch to direct message?
[12:13] <ogra_> nah, just keep it here
[12:13] <tim_> ok
[12:13] <tim_> I'm just about to run out I'm afraid
[12:13] <tim_> I'll explain quickly
[12:14] <tim_> I'm using 12.04 on gumstix boards
[12:14] <ogra_> yep. connor said so
[12:14] <ogra_> -n :)
[12:14] <tim_> there is a driver called snd-soc-overo for the built in audio
[12:14] <tim_> It works in openembedded I beleive
[12:14] <tim_> I'm modprobling it and it is loading
[12:14] <ogra_> right, do you see anything with "dmesg|tail" if you load it ?
[12:15] <tim_> but no usable devices
[12:15] <tim_> no I don't think so, I'll check that
[12:15] <ogra_> and is there anything in /proc /asound ?
[12:15] <tim_> Is it ok if I check that and get back to you in about 2 hours? just have to do something 1st
[12:16] <ogra_> sadly we dont have amny gumstix users so we dont really get much feedback for that SoC
[12:16] <tim_> you are in charge of soc audio?
[12:16] <ogra_> i have meetings the whole afternoon so i wont be available much
[12:16] <cvanvliet> tim, are you using armhf or armel?
[12:16] <tim_> anytime in the next few days would be great
[12:16] <tim_> armhf
[12:16] <ogra_> no, i only care for images usually and for the arm port in general
[12:16] <ogra_> but that often enough includes userspace audio fixes
[12:17] <tim_> OK.. will report back in a bit, and thanks
[12:17] <ogra_> cool, good luck :)
[14:36] <tim_> ogra_, dmesg just says -  [  392.393524] overo SoC init
[14:37] <tim_> ogra_, cat /proc/asound/cards says  --- no soundcards ---
[14:38] <ogra_> hmm, then your driver probably either needs additional modules loaded ... or whats more likely (and happens often on arm) is that the driver only works properly if compiled in
[14:39] <tim_> there are already a bunch of modules loaded
[14:39] <tim_> snd_soc_core          111406  2 snd_soc_overo,snd_soc_twl4030
[14:40] <tim_> is snd_soc_twl4030 supposed to load I wonder
[14:40] <tim_> twl4030 is the chip that's being used
[14:40] <tim_> and once I have loaded this once, it autoloads on reboot
[14:41] <tim_> btw uname -a : Linux overo 3.2.0-23-omap #36-Ubuntu Tue Apr 10 20:24:21 UTC 2012 armv7l armv7l armv7l GNU/Linux
[15:03] <GrueMaster> tim_: In my experience with the beagleXM and beagleboard (essentially the same SOC), the audio only worked when the drivers were built into the kernel.  You should try rebuilding the kernel with the twl4030 & overo drivers compiled in.
[15:04] <GrueMaster> (I "used" to work on the audio stuff for these boards)
[15:09] <tim_> Thanks!
[15:11] <tim_> I believe these may actually be built into the kernel already? There don't seem to be any .ko files for them..
[15:23] <GrueMaster> Hmmm.
[15:24] <GrueMaster> Try "fgrep TWL4030 /boot/config-*"
[15:24] <GrueMaster> See if they are.
[15:49] <tim_> GrueMaster ok - this checks the kernel build flags? -  CONFIG_SND_SOC_TWL4030=m
[15:50] <tim_> and CONFIG_SND_OMAP_SOC_OVERO=m
[15:50] <GrueMaster> Yes.  And according to that, the driver is built as a module.
[15:50] <tim_> I guess this means they aren't
[15:50] <GrueMaster> Need to rebuild with those set to Y.
[15:51] <tim_> Great! ok, this is going to take a bit of research..
[15:51] <tim_> do you know if it needs both of them?
[15:52] <cvanvliet> tim_, which gumstix have you got? (I have an IronStorm)
[15:52] <GrueMaster> I think if you set one in the kernel config menu, it will flag the other, but I am not sure.  I would just enable both.
[15:52] <tim_> I have airstorm and tide
[15:52] <tim_> I believe they are all compatible with the same kernels?
[15:52] <cvanvliet> I am a noob ;)
[15:53] <GrueMaster> See http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/925094
[15:53] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 925094 in linux "No audio on omap (beagleXM) system" [Medium,Confirmed]
[15:53] <GrueMaster> (I knew I had filed one - with the fix).
[15:54] <tim_> OK this seems to be a similar issue alright
[15:55] <tim_> At the end there is a post that says its a dependency issue?
[15:57] <GrueMaster> Yea, I just saw that.  Can't test it though (not at home, and beaglexm is packed away since I have moved on).
[15:58] <cvanvliet> tim, did you use a preinstalled ubuntu image, I think I tried it earlier and just sat there
[15:58] <cvanvliet> Uncompressing Linux... done, booting the kernel
[15:59] <tim_> I  used a preinstalled image yes
[15:59] <cvanvliet> hmm, ok
[15:59] <GrueMaster> cvanvliet: That sounds like a desktop image.  It requires video & keyboard.  You won't see much else on the serial port.
[15:59] <tim_> I think the current one does that for me also
[16:00] <ogra_> cvanvliet,  you want a server image for serial output
[16:00] <cvanvliet> GrueMaster, it is set up with DVI, keyboard etc
[16:00] <tim_> aha, I just tried loading snd-soc-omap and snd-soc-omap-mcbsp and the device has appeared!
[16:01] <tim_> without rebuilding the kernel ;-)
[16:01] <ogra_> congrats !
[16:01] <tim_> now to check if there is sound
[16:01] <GrueMaster> cool.  You can add the dependency to /etc/modprobe configs.
[16:04] <cvanvliet> ogra, I actually want a desktop, but I can try the server image later
[16:04] <cvanvliet> I actually want 12.04 armel, tbh
[16:04] <ogra_> you cant install the desktop image if your screen doesnt work
[16:04] <ogra_> and there are no armel images for 12.04
[16:05] <cvanvliet> I know, I have been trying to make one
[16:06] <cvanvliet> ogra, I am confused, there is a screen attached
[16:06] <ogra_> right, but the dirver your kernel ships was only tested on beagleXM
[16:07] <cvanvliet> ok
[16:07] <ogra_> its a matter of luck if it works on different omap boards
[16:07] <cvanvliet> thought that may be a the case
[16:07] <cvanvliet> nice to have it confirmed
[16:07] <cvanvliet> and when it worked for tim, I had hope
[16:08] <ogra_> desktop images run the installer on the display ... so without working kernel driver you wont be able to install them
[16:08] <cvanvliet> mine is a newer model, so every reason it may not work
[16:08] <ogra_> thats why i said use the server image ... it is a minimal ubuntu install that runs completely on serial and also offers to install the desktop at the end if you want to
[16:08] <cvanvliet> ahh ok,
[16:08] <cvanvliet> ahh thanks
[16:09] <cvanvliet> I can try that
[16:09] <cvanvliet> although I need armel, having an armhf may help me figure out the armel
[16:09] <ogra_> why do you want armel ?
[16:10] <ogra_> it will be lots slower
[16:10] <ogra_> (beyond the fact that nobody actually cares if it even works)
[16:10] <cvanvliet> I need the SGX drivers
[16:11] <ogra_> ah
[16:11] <cvanvliet> this is for a business of mine
[16:11] <cvanvliet> and we will use opengl for the graphics
[16:11] <ogra_> you could ask over in #beagle if there are any people capable of re-rolling the binary driver at TI
[16:12] <ogra_> thats essentially what was done for the omap4 hf driver
[16:12] <cvanvliet> one of the guys asked someone here the other day,
[16:12] <cvanvliet> and the answer was dunno :(
[16:13] <ogra_> lovely
[16:13] <cvanvliet> ndec, I think it was
[16:13] <ogra_> yeah, he isnt working in the omap3 area i think
[16:13] <tim_> I just tried to test the audio.. no audio
[16:13] <ndec> hmm?
[16:13] <cvanvliet> yeah it is quite hard, I feel like i will be using a below par system
[16:13] <ogra_> ndec, omap3 SGX armhf
[16:13] <tim_> I am aware that the mixer sometimes is preconfigured for no output
[16:13] <cvanvliet> if I don't use armhf
[16:14] <ndec> i don't do that ...
[16:14] <ndec> i don't do OMAP3 SGX, neither armel, nor armhf
[16:14]  * ogra_ thought so :)
[16:14] <tim_> its a very complex mixer
[16:14] <ogra_> tim_, yeah, thats the problem with bug 925094
[16:14] <cvanvliet> ndec, sorry if I got that wrong, I thought it was you who responded
[16:14] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 925094 in linux "No audio on omap (beagleXM) system" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/925094
[16:15] <ogra_> if it was easy we would just have a UCM config already :)
[16:16] <cvanvliet> so, accordingly with what tim_  is seeing, i will have audio issues as well , (i need to record sound)
[16:16] <ogra_> likely, though for him the driver already works ... should just be a mixer issue now
[16:17] <ogra_> if alsamixer actually shows the device and its rulers you are about 90% done
[16:17] <cvanvliet> ogra , ok
[16:28] <tim_> hmm, I have turned up every single bar in the mixer
[16:29] <tim_> alsaplayer thinks its playing a wav
[16:29] <tim_> but.. no audio
[17:17] <ogra_> tim_, did you also unmute everything ?
[17:18] <GrueMaster> iirc, the only way I got audio working on the beagle was to rebuild the kernel AND tweak the volume settings.  Hopefully you will get it working without rebuilding, but...
[17:21] <tim_> I think I unmuted everything- if OO means on and MM means mute
[17:21] <tim_> Gruemaster, did you also see a device but it didnt work until you rebuilt the kernel?
[17:22] <GrueMaster> Yes.
[17:23] <tim_> OK thats seems pretty clearcut..
[17:25] <GrueMaster> It seems like the device doesn't power properly unless the driver initiallizes it during kernel init.  I don't know enough about the inner workings of the SOC code, but I would guess that the kernel initalization routine powers on devices that need it during boot, but not after.
[17:26] <GrueMaster> On a PC, that's ok as there isn't as much device level power management, but on an SOC that is designed for low power cunsumption....
[17:27] <GrueMaster> It's like the SOC needs hot plug support for on-die devices.
[17:28] <GrueMaster> Of course, my assumptions could be wrong (it has happened before, once or twice).
[17:29] <bradfa> GrueMaster, could the "disabling unused clocks" play into that at all? maybe the SoC is disabling the sound device clocks if it's not configured in kernel init
[17:37] <GrueMaster> That might do it.  I'm not a hw designer though.  Maybe prpplague would know?
[17:37] <prpplague> who summons the plague?
[17:38] <GrueMaster> prpplague: question on the beagleboard/XM/overo Audio.  See scrollback.
[17:39] <prpplague> yea it is possible that a clock is disabled
[17:39] <prpplague> that is something that would take some debugging
[17:40] <GrueMaster> Is there a way to enable it from user land?
[17:40] <prpplague> one of the common issues the clock is disabled by mistake when another device enables their clocks
[17:40] <prpplague> yea you can use devmem2 to enable most clocks, but without knowing what is enable/disabled, you'd be throwing darts in the dark
[17:41]  * GrueMaster has done that with...interesting results.
[17:41] <prpplague> GrueMaster: i'd bring this to the attention of mdp or tartarus over on #beagle, they'd be able to get to the bottom of it fairly quickly
[17:41] <GrueMaster> Using real darts, of course.
[17:42] <GrueMaster> tim_, bradfa, cvanvliet, there you go.  I have done what I can to help from here.
[17:43]  * cvanvliet passes GrueMaster a beer
[17:43] <tim_> haha thanks a million..
[19:01] <janimo> lilstevie, no news on the tf101g front?


[19:13] <daftykins> a client drops his smartphone in a toilet and despite many overheating issues to start with, insists on continuing to use it since... hrmm
[19:19] <zxmpi> there isn't a mobile device on the planet i'd keep using after that drop
[19:20] <daftykins> :D
[19:20] <daftykins> on calling me, his primary concern was whether he could call for an uber in London in the morning
[19:23] <daftykins> from the same device, i mean xD
[19:24] <zxmpi> what's the range of a bt headset again. just how far away can you be while using it? :-)
[19:24] <daftykins> with it in a fireproof box!
[19:25] <zxmpi> when my brother was running his drain unblocking business he frequently dropped his phones in drains. people insisted on ringing while he was standing over open cesspit
[19:26] <daftykins> little case tied to a dog lead, sorted!
[19:26] <daftykins> dog collar, i mean
[19:27] <zxmpi> he paid top insurance on his phones and just reported them as lost on those occasions. on one occasion the phone compasny insisted he bring in the phone for repairs. he cleaned it as best he could and dropped it in sealed in plastic bags. the engineer toook a few days off afterwards
[19:27] <daftykins> xD
[19:28] <zxmpi> you're wearing overalls, heavy gloves and are short pockets and dexterity. hard to juggle phones and equipment
[19:33] <daftykins> that felt like the intro to a text adventure ;)
[19:33] <daftykins> hey i managed to breathe life back into a 2012 iMac! unfortunately i had already sunk money on an ebay motherboard before i learnt that just the WiFi + BT module was faulty, preventing power on
[19:33] <daftykins> £9 part i could have unplugged vs. a full board at £58 i didn't need
[19:34] <zxmpi> put it on ebay as steve jobs own motherboard :-P
[19:39] <daftykins> heh
[19:39] <daftykins> if only it were practical to sell on there, when you live here
[19:40] <zxmpi> start digging a tunnel to france :-D
[19:47] <penguin42> or a tunnel to a tunnel to france?
[19:48] <daftykins> hehe
[19:48] <daftykins> any BBC progress, penguin42?
[19:49] <penguin42> not attacked it much more yet
[19:50] <penguin42> I'm going to try it on composite and/or RGB - but I want to know if I can get it a bit more stable;
[19:53] <daftykins> RGB \o/
[19:58] <daftykins> hmm second mystery firmware update applying on that iMac, must be the obsolescence killswitch going on ;)


[00:03] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Those icons are auto pulled by the build process (for the html), and ultimatley end up in the same directory as the html. They are called by the .css file. Otherwise the help system knows where to find them...
[00:04] <KI7MT> dsmythies, yes I saw that, Im not gonna mess with them, just Important Icon should be different than the Info Icon "i"
[00:04] <dsmythies> KI7MT: currently there appears to be regular "notes" exceed "important" notes by a factor of 5. (Roughly 51 normal and 10 important, on a lsightly out of date count.)
[00:05] <dsmythies> Ki7MT: the info icon is a different story.
[00:07] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I think that's a product of using <note style="tip"> the wrong way .. e,g, not using  <note style="important"> enough
[00:08] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes. I was referring to regular note Vs. important note.
[00:08] <KI7MT> Yeah, we need Wiki guidance on that too.
[00:10] <KI7MT> dsmythies, there's like what, 4 regularly use item, Tip/Info .. Caution, Warning, Important .. we need use cases and properly setup CSS
[00:11] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Also, while I am here, what should I do about the "personal copyright" pages, leve them be or add the legal.xml to them.
[00:13] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I am only aware of 4: Tip Info Warning and Important. I am not aware of Caution. The .css is a compiled file, and in this regard is O.K. (as far as I know).
[00:14] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Copyright: I am not following. Didn't we decide to wait a bit for the doc list e-mail thread.?
[00:15] <KI7MT> Item #4 on the email I sent out.
[00:16] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Yes, but we need to wait at least enough time for people that are currently asleep to have an opportunity to chime in.
[00:17] <KI7MT> Ok so I'll just them inplace then, and revert the ones I added <license> tags too v.s. legal.xml
[00:44] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Re: note styles. Your were looking at things like <note style="important">. I was just looking at the .png files and assuming the mapping was what was logical and would make sense...
[00:44] <dsmythies> KI7MT: However the mapping is illogical, and in my mind, wrong...
[00:45] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Write a Bug so we cna fix it.
[00:45] <KI7MT> *can
[00:46] <KI7MT> dsmythies, the .png files don't really mean anything with the code behind it to render them properly.
[00:46] <dsmythies> note style tip maps to the blue circle with the "i" (which I guess you knew, but I didn't)
[00:46] <KI7MT> I know
[00:47] <dsmythies> note style info maps to the little yellow rectangle with the pin in it.
[00:47] <dsmythies> important to the satr (which is right)
[00:47] <dsmythies> important to the star (which is right)
[00:47] <KI7MT> dsmythies, and that particular Icon, is, by system default standards, an "Info" icon.
[00:48] <dsmythies> wanring to the warning thingy (which is right)
[00:48] <dsmythies> which "particular Icon"?
[00:48] <KI7MT> "i"
[00:48] <KI7MT> style="tip"
[00:49] <KI7MT> that icon is system Info Icon
[00:49] <KI7MT> so I guess "tip" and "info" be seen as same thing.
[00:50] <dsmythies> O.K. I'm confused. Do you agree there is a mapping error or no?
[00:50] <KI7MT> what file you looking at?
[00:51] <knome> fwiw, in the xubuntu documentation, note/tip are both mapped to (i), caution/important to (!)
[00:52] <dsmythies> I grepped for "<note" and then for each hit, I opened the file with the help system to observe.
[00:52] <dsmythies> knome: thanks.
[00:53] <knome> we still keep on using them separately, since it's possible we want to change the icon for either later
[00:53] <knome> not likely, but want to make sure it's possible without headache and tears
[00:53] <KI7MT> dsmythies, what file you looking at for the mapping?
[00:57] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I was just looking at source and final display. The actual mapping file will be buried somewhere, probably in yelp-tools. I didn't even start to look into that yet.
[00:59] <dsmythies> knome: thanks again.
[01:01] <KI7MT> Anyway, I need to finish the bug .. YELP_HELP_INIT .. not found that yet ..  want to look at that.
[01:35] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I'm about to send up the mods for lp:1268775
[02:18] <KI7MT> dsmythies, How did you determine which server pkg's were a priority for this cycle?
[02:37] <KI7MT> where everyone .. way too quiet in here :-)
[03:06] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Just curious, why is the 10.04 Server guide still up and running online? would it not make sense to re-direct that to 12.04 Server ? Allot of the server bugs are against 10.04 ..
[04:20] <dsmythies> KI7MT: Peter Matulis determined the priorities for the server guide for this cycle. Typically, the ones that nobody got to for awhile are highlighted. You can make other lines higlighted priorities, if you want. I did for 11.1 when we realized that config files now need to have a .conf extention, for example.
[04:21] <KI7MT> dsmythies, ok .. sounds good Looks like we are getting some traction on the coyright issue, getting some feedback now.
[04:21] <dsmythies> KI7MT: 10.04 is an LTS release, and has not reached EOL yet.
[04:21] <KI7MT> Oh.. yeah, on the server hasn't EOL yet, DE has.
[04:21] <dsmythies> KI7MT: serverguide is switching to LTS only as of 14.04
[04:22] <dsmythies> KI7MT: 13.04 is EOL at end Jan. On or about Feb 1st, it will be deleted from help.ubuntu.com
[04:23] <KI7MT> dsm found a Bug in the HTML Makefile for .. ui:expand  .. I'll write it up and fix it, affets 3 or 4 files, and will also send a note to ubuntu-docs
[04:23] <KI7MT> dsmythies, that was fer you
[04:23] <dsmythies> KI7MT: for serverguide I never backport. Peter tries to.
[04:24] <KI7MT> dsmythies, servers, in my opinion, should not be cutting edge, the should be industrial stable :-)
[04:24] <dsmythies> hecne why we are going to lts only serverguide
[04:25] <dsmythies> the other reason is that we simply can not maintain the old versions that are still active.
[04:25] <KI7MT> dsmythies, that + you dont have snough resoureces to write it up every six mos.
[04:25] <KI7MT> *enough
[04:26] <dsmythies> KI7MT: bug in Makefile: Hey great it has been figured out.
[04:26] <KI7MT> No, not all fo them fixed yet, jsut the Deprecated ui:expand URL .. still workign on the other three errors.
[04:27] <dsmythies> Sorry, that is what I meant.
[04:27] <KI7MT> :-) it's all good. one down, three to go :-0
[04:28] <KI7MT> Im getting Unmatched block error, neams an open block somewhere, that's not gonna be easy to fix.
[04:28] <KI7MT> this is not on my code, jsut HTML build in general.
[04:29] <dsmythies> I can not catch up just now, it'll have to be tomorrow sometimes.
[04:30] <KI7MT> dsmythies, you have more MP's to review.
[04:30] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I saw, but they have to wait also, unless another does them.
[04:31] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Where are all the commiters ?
[04:32] <dsmythies> KI7MT: "little girl" did say she would be absent for chunks of time. I guess this is one of those times. When she is here things really happen.
[04:33] <KI7MT> dsmythies, yeah, cuz seems you got alloy going on.
[04:33] <KI7MT> *allot
[04:34] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I am absent for chunks of time on occasion also.
[04:34] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I missed the entire 12.04 cycle.
[04:35] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I meant tosay 12.10 cycle
[04:35] <KI7MT> well when I get up to speed, I can help out, been doing this stuff for a long time, just not with thos Distributed + Gatekeeper setup.
[04:40] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Generally, I dont spend allot of energy on the intermediate releases. LTS to LTS is my main thing.
[04:45] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Im wonderign whey nobody else is moaning about the ui:depricated errors .. I checked on 3 branch pulls, fails on all three.
[06:22] <godbyk> KI7MT: I merged your UI fixes. I think that the experimental UI spec URI used to be valid but no longer is. So it may not have yelled at us last cycle.
[06:23] <KI7MT> godbyk, Yes, I suspect so, somwhere along the line, he moved it to an active url .. was easy fix
[06:24] <godbyk> I also looked at Doug's bug about copying files from the wrong location. It seems a bit more involved, though, and I haven't stumbled across the right answer yet.
[06:24] <godbyk> I'm slowly working through my inbox. :-)
[06:25] <KI7MT> godbyk, But I'm stumped on the Makefile cp issue . Im not a sed guru unfortunately.
[06:26] <KI7MT> godbyk, There is also a file or 2 that have open section tags some  where  .. that's a needle ins a stack of needles to find :-)
[06:27] <godbyk> I understand the sed command.. but the sed command itself doesn't try to copy anything.
[06:28] <godbyk> The copying happens within the yelp-build shell script.
[06:28] <godbyk> And that shell script isn't documented very well.
[06:28] <KI7MT> where is the script ?
[06:28] <godbyk> It involves taking each .page file and running a huge xslt script against it to extract the files it wants to copy and then tries to copy them.
[06:28] <godbyk> Run 'which yelp-build' to find it. :)
[06:29] <KI7MT> I know where that is, and the xsl .. and yes, there's allot to that file.
[06:30] <godbyk> The failed cp commands happen on line 471 of the yelp-build script.
[06:31] <godbyk> Not all the copies fail.. most of them work fine. Just the files that GNOME uses but we don't.. those are the ones that fail.
[06:32] <KI7MT> Im looking at yelp-build .. how did you find out it was line 471 failing?
[06:33] <godbyk> Well, I searched for the cp commands in that file and picked the one that made the most sense..
[06:33] <godbyk> Then I added an echo line above it to check my suspicions.
[06:34] <KI7MT> ahh ok
[06:36] <KI7MT> I can do a good bit of bash, but that script is a bit beyond my ability  ..
[06:37] <godbyk> The bash aspects of that script aren't too bad.
[06:37] <godbyk> The problem is the huge xslt stuff they've just pasted in the middle everywhere.
[06:42] <KI7MT> yeah, there's a good bit of that in there too .. it's hard to keep track of all this xsl stuff.
[07:01] <KI7MT> godbyk, While youe here, what is the code for assigning a bug to wiki instead of ubundu-docs ?
[07:03] <godbyk> KI7MT: As far as I know, the wiki stuff falls under the ubuntu-docs project as well.
[07:04] <godbyk> (Though I sometimes wish there were a separate project for that.)
[07:05] <KI7MT> Yeah, there's loads of bugs for the wiki's .. I wsa tols the other day, can't remember by whom, no to write bugs for the wiki's and help.ubuntu.com
[07:05] <KI7MT> *was told
[07:05] <godbyk> In my mind, it's often silly to file a bug report against the wiki when you could just fix it directly.
[07:05] <godbyk> But not everyone reading the wiki has the knowledge to fix the bugs.
[07:06] <godbyk> Oftentimes it's someone trying to use the wiki to solve a problem or learn how to do something. When things don't work out well, or the instructions lead them astray, their only real recourse is to file a bug and hope someone fixes it.
[07:06] <KI7MT> Yes, and some folks, like me, were taught to work tasks form bugs reports :-)
[07:08] <KI7MT> godbyk, Im very interested in making sure help.ubuntu.com is correct, as that's my got site for Ubuntu Support IRC .. I send folks to pages there allot, and it annoys me to send them to a non-ubuntu site for a ubuntu issue.
[07:08] <KI7MT> *go too.
[07:08] <godbyk> What would be nice is if people interested in or working on particular projects would monitor the wiki pages referencing those projects and keep them up to date and accurate.
[07:09] <godbyk> I agree. I think that lousy documentation leads to a negative user experience and we want to avoid those whenever possible.
[07:09] <KI7MT> godbyk, There's too many go too places, we have Wiki, Help, Ask, >. which is the master .. to many sites to watch. not enough automation.
[07:10] <dsmythies> The reason you typically should not file a bug against help.ubuntuc.com is because that is not where the master files are. The master files are in serverguide and desktop help projects
[07:10] <godbyk> dsmythies: I assumed he was talking about filing bugs against the wiki at h.u.c, not against the system docs or server guide.
[07:11] <dsmythies> Peter M. has been setting bugs against wiki to INVALID. I do not think that is correct action.
[07:11] <KI7MT> Oh and I forgot, then there's the Forums, which, is a great place for info, lots of realyl smart folsk in there writing how-too's
[07:11] <dsmythies> godbyk: Oh.
[07:11] <godbyk> KI7MT: That's true and I can understand how that could cause confusion—especially when not all of the docs are up to date. But I think that different forms of documentation have different uses, all of which are valid.
[07:12] <KI7MT> Yes, I was .. there's bugs filed again wiki issues, then assigned to ubuntu-docs ..
[07:12] <KI7MT> godbyk, indeed, it's jsut hard to keep them all in sync, and ot kno where to send folks as the go too place.
[07:13] <godbyk> dsmythies: I think that ubuntu-docs bugs should be about bugs in the *documentation*. Unfortunately, it seems to be a catchall for 'something is wrong and I don't know who to complain to'.
[07:13] <KI7MT> heck even ubutto has bad data .. lol ..
[07:13] <dsmythies> Oh my, e-mail in box has lots of stuff...
[07:13] <dsmythies> godbyk: Agreed.
[07:14] <KI7MT> godbyk, I agredd . ubuntu-docs ==> Desktop Help Bugs .. wiki bugs, against the wiki
[07:14] <godbyk> dsmythies: Tell me about it! :-)  You guys and your bug reports and merge proposals have filled mine up the past week. I'm trying to get through the backlog now. :)
[07:15] <KI7MT> AND .. we need a way to filter against the release, not being funny, but an issue in 13.04 does interest me, it's EOL
[07:15] <dsmythies> godbyk: fair enough. Aren't you two times zone ahead of me? I.E. isn't it late for you?
[07:15] <KI7MT> adn 13.10 is EOL in what July I think ?
[07:15] <dsmythies> Typically, most bugs carry forward. Of course some not.
[07:17] <KI7MT> dsmythies, godbyk is looking at that cp stat error .. I could not figure it out. even asked in SED gnome and gnome-docs .. nil everywehre.
[07:17] <godbyk> dsmythies: I'm in US/Central.. it's 1:17 a.m. here.
[07:17]  * godbyk is a night owl.
[07:18] <dsmythies> There are two type of copy errors. I saw your discussion above.
[07:18] <godbyk> KI7MT: Well, we're still interested in old bugs that haven't been fixed yet and still exist in 14.04.
[07:19] <KI7MT> If they exist .. but if there no longer valid for the next release, and the release they were written against is EOL, shoudl they not be closed?
[07:19] <godbyk> dsmythies: What are the two types?  You mean the (1) missing figures/blah file and (2) /usr/share/blah/blah that gets prepended with the local dir?
[07:20] <godbyk> KI7MT: Unless we're up for releasing updates, yeah. I don't know what the procedures and policies are for that, though.
[07:20] <dsmythies> godbyk: Yes, I think so, I actually need to review, but cann't get it it until at least tomorrow.
[07:21] <KI7MT> godbyk, I dont thing there's enough man-/-girl power to do updates too.
[07:21] <KI7MT> what's with these other two MP's they been there for a while now
[07:21] <godbyk> KI7MT: You're probably right.
[07:22] <godbyk> KI7MT: Usually I get to MPs more quickly, but I've been on vacation for a bit. I just got back this past week and have been getting caught up on housework and the like.
[07:22] <godbyk> KI7MT: Also, I'd say that smaller MPs get processed a lot more quickly.
[07:22] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I am only aware of one old one for DeskTop and one old one for Serverguide. Is that what you are referring to?
[07:23] <godbyk> If I can glance at a diff and immediately see what it's doing and that it doesn't break anything, it's easy for me to accept it.
[07:23] <godbyk> If it's a huge diff, it takes me longer to test it and read through everything.
[07:23] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Yes I think your right maybe they got updated .. maybe I just been looking at that page too much . LOL
[07:24] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I do not have the ability to test the DeskTop one. Peter was looking at Serverguide one, and it os now stale. I'll kick the serverguide one. I hate MP sitting around forever.
[07:25] <KI7MT> ALl I know is there's allot of work to do .. lots of clean up stuff., and lots of validation.
[07:25] <dsmythies> KI7MT: last cycle, I cleaned up all old (some very very old) Serverguide MP's.
[07:26] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Oh the hinbernate one, that's not a good one to enable actually, but the docs should be available .. hibernate is less that 50.50 to work on all HW.
[07:26] <godbyk> KI7MT: Yeah, that's why I haven't touched the hibernate one.
[07:26] <godbyk> Well, a couple reasons:
[07:27] <godbyk> 1. I don't like having to tell people to type cryptic commands into a terminal.
[07:27] <godbyk> 2. I'm not sure that's the best solution. It seems more like a software bug than a documentation bug.
[07:27] <godbyk> If a feature isn't exposed by the software, it shouldn't be our job to provide cryptic workarounds.
[07:28] <KI7MT> I look at it this way, if it's Grey'ed out by the Developers, probably a good reason for that :-)
[07:28] <godbyk> We should document the software as it exists today.
[07:29] <KI7MT> I agree .. there's enough to do with that, let alone adding to the pile.
[07:29] <dsmythies> godbyk: I was thinking similar. That bug report went on and on and on, and I never really understood doc involvment or requirement.
[07:30] <KI7MT> that's becasue they want the feature, but there's not official workaround, so they work it from other angles .. lol
[07:30] <KI7MT> You shoud sit a watch Ubuntu IRC for a while .. OMG . some of the things they do to try and circumvent things is amazing :-)
[07:32] <godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, for the longest time I couldn't figure out how docs figured into that bug either. I had to reread their messages a few times to see what was going on.
[07:33] <KI7MT> Ubuntu-Docs doesn't really .. Hibernate is not a Application Support feature.
[07:33] <godbyk> If that bug is still open when I get that far down my inbox, I'll add a note to this effect and move it off of our plate.
[07:33] <KI7MT> I gotta get back into Bug Control .. makes that stuff easy then.
[07:34] <KI7MT> but being in bug-squad can change priority and things.
[07:35] <KI7MT> In all actuality, the bug "I think" should be against upower not ubuntu-docs to document the hack.
[07:37] <godbyk> This MP has been handled already, right? https://code.launchpad.net/~ki7mt/ubuntu-docs/accounts-files-patch/+merge/201182
[07:37] <godbyk> (It says it's been merged, but from the comments, I'm not sure if it's completely settled or not.)
[07:37] <KI7MT> Yes it has.
[07:38] <godbyk> Okay, cool. I get to move another email out of my inbox. \o/
[07:38] <KI7MT> I did one MP, screwed it up, did another MP and had to push an update to that one .. and it still ahd issues, whihc are now fixed :-)
[07:40] <KI7MT> godbyk, YOu on that last email to gunnar .. we need a full aduit, and we need to use Dash >> Some Applicaiton .. where ever possible I think
[07:40] <KI7MT> *You right .. .. .
[07:42] <godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
[07:42] <KI7MT> There is allot of hold over form point and clickv..
[07:43] <KI7MT> from point and click ..
[07:43] <godbyk> I'd say that for some items where there are direct menus that we can use (e.g., the indicator menus), it's faster to use those than to search in the Dash and then hope it shows the results we expect.
[07:44] <godbyk> The results that the Dash shows are dependent on what applications a person has installed, which applications are used most frequently or more recently, etc.
[07:44] <godbyk> So it's rather nondeterministic from a documentation point of view.
[07:44] <KI7MT> Yeah those on the Top-Bar, yeah, those ore easy P&C ..
[07:44] <KI7MT> But what is that Bar called, and si everyone using the same name for it?
[07:46] <godbyk> That's one of the questions I'd like to get settled for 14.04.
[07:46] <KI7MT> gnome docs calling the Activity Bar now I think
[07:46] <KI7MT> and its labeled as such, can't miss it.. lol
[07:47] <godbyk> Yeah, it's not called that in Unity.
[07:47] <KI7MT> In the gnome style guide, i'll go find it again, they took a pic and labeled everything  for docs.
[07:48] <godbyk> Yeah, I pestered mpt about this a while back.
[07:48] <godbyk> At the time, he said the top bar is called the menu bar.
[07:48] <godbyk> The menu bar contains the window title, window menus, application status menus, and system status menus.
[07:49] <godbyk> I don't know, however, if that is still the preferred terminology or not.
[07:50] <KI7MT> I dont know, that's just it .. when Unity hot the street is when this should have been hashed out.
[07:50] <godbyk> Agreed.
[07:51] <godbyk> There's inconsistencies throughout the UI and various docs projects, too.
[07:51] <godbyk> I'd like to get everyone on the same page.
[07:51] <godbyk> Establish a canonical list of terminology (along with spelling, capitalization, etc.).
[07:51] <godbyk> Then we can file bugs and patches to fix things in the docs and UI to bring about some consistency.
[07:52] <KI7MT> akaq Terms: https://developer.gnome.org/gdp-style-guide/stable/gnome-glossary-desktop.html.en
[07:53] <godbyk> Yeah, the Ubuntu docs style guide references that, too, I think.. but some terms differ and may even be out of date for GNOME.
[07:53] <godbyk> For example, menubar is now spelled as two words: menu bar.
[07:53] <KI7MT> We just need to make it for Ubuntu.
[07:55] <godbyk> Well, we have one.. though it's out of date: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide/StandardTerminology
[07:55] <KI7MT> Actually, on my laptop here, Im using gnome 3.1 it's actually very nice to use.
[07:56] <KI7MT> Yes, the split from gnome to Unity .. allot of things need goign over form the beginning I think .. we'll get there eventually .. lol
[07:57] <KI7MT> I like Evolution mail better that TBird also, TBird address book is terrible I think
[07:58] <KI7MT> Doesn't KDE have their own Sites now ?
[07:59] <godbyk> I think they do.
[07:59] <KI7MT> Yeah, pretty Blue one's I think.
[07:59] <KI7MT> Thats the best part about KDE, the color, but that's where it ends for me .. LOL
[08:00] <KI7MT> Although, this QtRazor rumor is a bit worrying ..
[08:01]  * dsmythies not a night owl... guys, back tomorrow
[08:01] <KI7MT> cul dsmythies
[08:01] <godbyk> G'night, dsmythies!
[08:02]  * godbyk is going to tackle this hibernate MP+bug now...
[08:02] <KI7MT> Ok I'll be round for a while yet.
[08:05] <KI7MT> godbyk, We sould sure use one of these, tailored for Desktop Help: http://blogs.gnome.org/shaunm/files/2012/01/mallardcheatsheet.png
[08:06] <godbyk> Nice find!
[08:06] <KI7MT> I don't know Mallard well enough yet, but  I been keeping notes
[08:12] <godbyk> Okay, here are the comments I added to the bug and MP: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1232814/comments/59
[08:12] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1232814 in indicator-session (Ubuntu) "Hibernate option is missing from menu in 13.10 even after trying to re-enable" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[08:12] <godbyk> We'll see how much flak I get for them. :)
[08:12] <KI7MT> LOL
[08:14] <KI7MT> I think that's the right answer, while the patch may work, it's outside the scope of sys-docs to engineer workarounds.
[08:15] <godbyk> I also feel uncomfortable instructing readers to type long commands into the terminal.
[08:15] <KI7MT> We need to get all the writing on one style .. be it XML, plain txt .. something ..
[08:15] <godbyk> Who is 'we'?
[08:15] <KI7MT> long commands, new users, I normally see them in Ubuntu IRC shortly after .. LOL
[08:16] <KI7MT> we  being all the doc teams  we :-)
[08:17] <godbyk> You mean between desktop docs and server guide, for instance?
[08:17] <KI7MT> server on DockBook, Desktop on Mallard, Ubuntu-Man on L aTeX .. Im not sure what the flavors are on right now.
[08:17] <godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
[08:17] <godbyk> Well, those markup languages are all geared toward different end products.
[08:18] <godbyk> Mallard is good for short bits of online help,
[08:18] <KI7MT> Mallard, :-)
[08:18] <godbyk> LaTeX is good for generated printed material (and PDFs),
[08:18] <godbyk> Docbook kind of tries to be all things to all people.. but it can generate html and PDFs and the like.
[08:19] <KI7MT> Asciidoc :-)
[08:19] <godbyk> I wouldn't use Mallard to write a book, for instance.
[08:19] <godbyk> Docbook can generate PDFs, but I don't think they look very good and it doesn't have very much typographic control as far as I can tell.
[08:20] <godbyk> asciidoc is like the lowest common denominator which means it's bad at everything. :-)
[08:20] <KI7MT> what's your email you use normlay or prefer, I'll share a UIbuntu One folder with real quick.
[08:20] <KI7MT> Ubuntu One
[08:21] <godbyk> I use<EMAIL_ADDRESS>for Ubuntu One.
[08:22] <KI7MT> see if you can DL this: http://ubuntuone.com/5MVA3ylPXyuJWQOi9W2tpO
[08:23] <godbyk> Yep
[08:24] <KI7MT> You need to extract it fist then run the HTML
[08:24] <godbyk> Which html file should I open?
[08:24] <KI7MT> Any of them, is three diff TOC's
[08:24] <KI7MT> ot TOC type.
[08:25] <KI7MT> the author of the application is a Nobel prize guy in Astro Physics or something like that, Joe, K1JT
[08:26] <KI7MT> Anyway, I wrote up his manual using Asciidoc in about two days.
[08:28] <godbyk> cool
[08:28] <KI7MT> the source directory is the raw input
[08:28] <KI7MT> one line command to generate the pages.
[08:29] <KI7MT> Point is, Im not say Asciidoc is the best, but something like is it what we need, plain test front end, multiple back-ends.
[08:29] <KI7MT> plain text
[08:29] <godbyk> The problem is that the plain text frontend isn't expressive enough.
[08:29] <KI7MT> Ascidoc does text in, DocBook Back end, LaTex baxkend, epub, all sorts.
[08:30] <KI7MT> expressive ?
[08:30] <godbyk> Can asciidoc handle Mallard <link> tags, for instance?
[08:30] <godbyk> Or its <info> tags?
[08:31] <godbyk> Basically, with plain text, you lose the structure.
[08:31] <godbyk> And asciidoc is still a markup language.. it's just different than XML or LaTeX or Docbook.
[08:31] <KI7MT> Yes, Shaun said it works with Malllard, he tried it .. either  Ascidoc, or Asci-Doctor (Ruby Gem Version)
[08:31] <KI7MT> I'd have to ask him which again.
[08:32] <KI7MT> I think ascii-doctor it was .. not sure .. Ascii-Doctor is a Ruby Gem Port of Asciidoc.
[08:33] <godbyk> How do you mark something as being a GUI element in asciidoc?
[08:33] <godbyk> Does it have any sort of semantic markup?
[08:33] <KI7MT> LOL .. I dont know, .. I dont know how to do it in Mallard either .. LOL
[08:34] <godbyk> In Mallard, I think you just write <gui>menu item</gui>.
[08:34] <KI7MT> I think that is all in what they call the back-end, or the Style sheet.
[08:34] <godbyk> Then you can use the style sheet to tell the viewer how to display GUI elements. You can make them bold or italics or a different color or whatever.
[08:34] <KI7MT> Yes
[08:35] <KI7MT> there's two docsuments ya gotta edit for cumstomization, CSS and an xsl sheet I think.
[08:35] <godbyk> Yeah, depending on what you want to customize.
[08:36] <KI7MT> but from a user standing point, to start a list, I just put a *  to have a Level 2 heading start it with == Some Level Two heading Here
[08:37] <godbyk> Yeah.
[08:37] <KI7MT> Look in the source directory,  that shoes the makrkup I did/
[08:37] <godbyk> For LaTeX, I'd just write \chapter{...} or \section{...} for the headings.
[08:37] <KI7MT> shows
[08:37] <godbyk> See, for example, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/trusty/view/head:/software-management/updates-and-upgrades.tex
[08:39] <KI7MT> I tried to follow  a bot of LaTeX before. Ipersonally, did not think it was too harsh .. but new writers, those new to linux, DocBook and LaTex is like pluto.
[08:39] <KI7MT> *a bot of LaTeX
[08:39] <KI7MT> LOL bIt
[08:39] <godbyk> Yeah, there is a bit of a learning curve—especially if you want to do something other than the defaults.
[08:39] <godbyk> But I think that's true for most markup languages.
[08:40] <KI7MT> Pretty much ..
[08:41] <KI7MT> this is an href - {wsjtx}  this is a marker/shortcut [[X7]]
[08:42] <KI7MT> Note with the icon I want: [icon="./images/icons/example.png"]
[08:42] <KI7MT> [note] standard not icon
[08:42] <KI7MT> Everything has a learning curve for sure.
[08:45] <KI7MT> But, the thing is, with a test input font-end, of whatever kind, that allows allot more people to participate.
[08:46] <godbyk> Well, unless the original source files migrate to that frontend, I don't think it'd work.
[08:46] <godbyk> And if the end result is to be Mallard (for example), why not just start there to begin with?
[08:47] <KI7MT> The first thing you see wiht Desktop and Server guide is, got create some crazy PGP /SSH stuff .. sure is easy for you and me, but probably not to a Windows guy.
[08:47] <godbyk> Then you have all the power of Mallard at your fingertips instead of the watered-down version you'd get via asciidoc or another frontend/translator.
[08:47] <godbyk> Well, sort of.
[08:47] <godbyk> There are more options and we should make those clear if they're not.
[08:48] <godbyk> For example, people can report bugs and let others deal with the markup.
[08:48] <godbyk> Or email the list.
[08:48] <KI7MT> Yeah, I agree for those that can handle the Markup of Mallard, definitely best way to go.
[08:48] <godbyk> They don't need to create a Launchpad account, learn bzr, Mallard, etc., necessarily.
[08:48] <KI7MT> We need to tell them that though
[08:48] <godbyk> I agree.
[08:49] <godbyk> We only started writing/updating the 'how to be an ubuntu-docs contributor' documentation last cycle.
[08:49] <godbyk> And what we've written so far is just to cover what we had to learn ourselves to get up and running.
[08:49] <KI7MT> Here's what ya get for getting started: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
[08:49] <godbyk> As we move forward, we can start expanding the team docs to encompass other ways of contributing.
[08:50] <KI7MT> That's what's what I talking about .. BZR, SSH, PGP.. all scare words to allot of folks not familiar with them
[08:51] <KI7MT> That's why I linke the ubuntu-manual model, writers and editors ..
[08:52] <godbyk> Well, we could do that for the ubuntu-docs team, too, if we have enough people.
[08:52] <KI7MT> Maybe it's just a slow time for Doks right now, but, not allot of MP's hitting launchpad.
[08:52] <KI7MT> *for Docks
[08:52] <godbyk> But the authors and editors on the manual team write LaTeX directly, generally.
[08:52] <KI7MT> Yeah, thing is, why no people?
[08:53] <godbyk> Well, part of that is because we're kind of in between cycles. Not enough has been finished in 14.04 to document yet.
[08:54] <godbyk> As to the lack of volunteers, I think there are a few reasons for that:
[08:54] <godbyk> Historically, people who approached the docs team asking how they could help would be thrust into the world of Docbook/Mallard/bzr/Launchpad/etc.
[08:54] <godbyk> The barrier to entry was just too high, and so they gave up and left.
[08:55] <godbyk> The docs team wasn't very communicative with the rest of the community, either.
[08:55] <godbyk> So we didn't even know the team was completely dead until late in the 13.04 cycle.
[08:55] <godbyk> So for 13.04 and 13.10, we were just trying to get things minimally updated and pushed out the door.
[08:56] <godbyk> Now that we're starting to get our legs under us, we'll work in finding more volunteers to help out.
[08:56] <KI7MT> Oh .. I didn't know that ..
[08:57] <KI7MT> well .. I just jumped in .. should have read more, should have done allot of things different, but that the way I am,  go get it done, fix it and move on :-)
[08:57] <KI7MT> But not everyone is like that.
[08:58] <KI7MT> I learned a long time ago, dont know who said it originally, but if your not breaking something, your not trying hard enough :-)
[08:58] <godbyk> I tell that to the students I work with, too. :)
[08:59] <KI7MT> Not being funny, but, it's documentation, if we break the build, the box still gonna work, and we cna fix what we broke.
[09:00] <KI7MT> Things like Kernels and Vid Drivers etc, may want to be a bot more careful :-)
[09:00] <KI7MT> *bit
[09:00] <godbyk> Yeah.
[09:01] <KI7MT> I had no idea the team fell apart in 13.04 - 13.10 .. I spent allot more energy on LTS builds normally.
[09:02] <godbyk> Yeah, the final docs team member mentioned that he was the last one standing during the 13.04 cycle.
[09:02] <godbyk> Doug and Ben and I stepped in to try to get the docs out for 13.04.
[09:02] <KI7MT> Like right now there's 36 folks in this room .. and probably less that 10 have chatted over the last 24hrs.
[09:03] <godbyk> And then we tried to update some things for 13.10, but only got so far along before we ran out of time.
[09:03] <KI7MT> yeah, there's only so much you can do when it's crunch time.
[09:07] <KI7MT> Dont think this one gonna be fixed, Jocky has gone away: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/409338
[09:07] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 409338 in Ubuntu Documentation "Change the name of "Hardware drivers"" [Undecided,New]
[09:09] <godbyk> nice
[09:09] <godbyk> Let's see what the current docs say..
[09:12] <KI7MT> Mine says Additional Drivers, but Im on 12.04.4
[09:12] <godbyk> Looks like it mentions the Additional Drivers tab on only one page.
[09:14] <godbyk> I don't see the 'hardware drivers' app mentioned any longer in the docs, so I'll close this bug.
[09:14] <KI7MT> Yup
[09:15] <KI7MT> there's also so clever code going on in the background, your box needs these drivers, that thing shows up, if ya dont, it wont.
[09:15] <KI7MT> *if your box .. .. ..
[09:15] <godbyk> it's timing out when I try to mark the bug fixed. Guess I'll have to try again in a bit.
[09:16] <KI7MT> I need to get back into bug control .. im only in Bug Squad right now.
[09:17] <godbyk> Maybe you can answer a question for me..
[09:17] <godbyk> We get a decent number of bugs filed under the docs project that don't belong there.
[09:17] <godbyk> Sometimes I know where they should go and redirect them..
[09:17] <godbyk> but sometimes I don't.
[09:17] <godbyk> Is there a general catchall I can put them under so someone smarter than I can triage them?
[09:18] <godbyk> (finally got that bug marked as 'fix released', btw.)
[09:18] <KI7MT> Im not sure .. I used to use just ubuntu  but it's been a long time since I could triage bugs or disposition them.
[09:19] <KI7MT> You can select the more / advanced options ans do some searching .. but there's hundreds of tags available.
[09:22] <KI7MT> this one 6 months old: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1194589
[09:22] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1194589 in Ubuntu Documentation "Firefox gave an Untrusted Site Warning for two separate Community Ubuntu Documentation Sites." [Undecided,New]
[09:26] <godbyk> I'll flag that one as incomplete. I don't see any errors when I visit the docs sites with Firefox.
[09:26] <KI7MT> I didn't either.
[09:28] <KI7MT> I talks wiht Doug briefly about this one, Windows Live still a viable entity:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1228952
[09:28] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1228952 in Ubuntu Documentation "Windows Live references obsolete" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[09:30] <godbyk> Wikipedia says Windows Live was closed down in April 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Live
[09:31] <KI7MT> mHmmm
[09:32] <godbyk> What's more important, however, is what it's called in the Ubuntu UI.
[09:33] <godbyk> For 13.10, it has "Windows Live" as a type of online account I can add.
[09:33] <godbyk> I'm not sure what it'll say for 14.04 yet.
[09:34] <KI7MT> I did not change the reference in the Online Accounts docs, left it as Windows Live .. but that may be wrong.
[09:38] <KI7MT> godbyk, I asked in Bugs about a default bug bucket, and they said we should not put anything if we don't know .. but I don't think LP will allow us to leave the Tag null.
[09:38] <godbyk> I don't know if I can remove a bug's association with the ubuntu-docs project without assigning it to a different project.
[09:39] <godbyk> I think I tried that once and it didn't work.
[09:39] <KI7MT> Yeah, think I did to, but if shouted at me for it.
[09:39] <KI7MT> *it
[09:40] <KI7MT> godbyk, Here we go: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags#Generic_bug_tags
[09:41] <godbyk> I don't want tags, though.
[09:41] <KI7MT> what bug you looking at?
[09:41] <godbyk> I want to know what project or package to assign the bug to.
[09:42] <godbyk> Well, let's pretend that this bug doesn't belong to ubuntu-docs, for instance: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1228952
[09:42] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1228952 in Ubuntu Documentation "Windows Live references obsolete" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[09:42] <godbyk> (It does, but we can look at it..)
[09:42] <godbyk> When I click the edit link for Ubuntu Documentation, I have to give it another project/package in its place.
[09:43] <KI7MT> I use the hour-glass to search for it based on the bugs write.
[09:44] <KI7MT> Using the Tags should, put it with the right project .. and if you get the right one, the correct package too. In the real world, that id the submitters responsibility.
[09:45] <KI7MT> But the Triage team has to check all that based on the reports sent in.
[09:51] <godbyk> Well, it's nearly 4 a.m. here. I need to get some sleep.
[09:52] <KI7MT> Yeah, me too .. CU tomorrow
[09:52] <godbyk> G'night, KI7MT!
[19:13] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Are you working on bug lp:1269100 or do you want us to work it?
[19:33] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I only added your name for your potential interest, and since it relates to, and is follow up from, our IRC conversation yesterday. I'll do it, eventually.
[19:34] <dsmythies> KI7MT: However, take it if you want it.
[19:37] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Ok, yeah I can work it, shouldn't take too long. One of the files has that personal copyright thing on it though.
[19:38] <dsmythies> KI7MT: O.K. thanks very much. I am trying to get some serverguide stuff done. While minor, it keeps slipping and slipping and...
[19:38] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Yup. no problem, will submit it later this afternoon.
[21:13] <KI7MT> dsmythies, done with the edit, could only do minor things on the wacom pages, as I don't have that tablet.
[21:43] <KI7MT> Who writes the installation guide listed here: https://help.ubuntu.com/13.10/installation-guide/index.html
[21:48] <godbyk> No one.
[21:49] <godbyk> I think it's effectively dead.
[21:50] <KI7MT> godbyk, GA .. another question for you .. Nautilus or Files .. the install package, 14.04 is 3.8.2 .. but when I look at the about information, it's name if Files ?
[21:54] <godbyk> Yeah, it's called Files now.
[21:54] <KI7MT> godbyk, Ok, jst needed to make sure I had that correct.
[21:55] <godbyk> np
[21:58] <dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk; Yes, someone picked up the work on the installation guide late last cycle. He missed the deadline for including the updates.
[21:59] <godbyk> dsmythies: Oh, did someone pick up the installation guide? Excellent! I must've missed that.
[21:59] <dsmythies> I guess I better check about progess for this cycle.
[21:59] <dsmythies> godbyk: Yes.
[22:00] <godbyk> I'm currently reading through the hibernation thread on the tech board mailing list. So far I'm not seeing anything that convinces me to change my view on the docs patch.
[22:00] <dsmythies> godbyk: Last night I forgot to warn you that KI7MT doesn't sleep.
[22:00] <godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, I'm starting to realize that! :)
[22:07] <dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk: Installation guide missed deadline due to floods in Colorado. Understandably, the person was unable to do ubuntu stuff for awhile.
[22:08] <KI7MT> dsmythies, ahh i see . was just curious as I don't recall seeing that format before
[22:09] <godbyk> dsmythies: Ah, yeah.. I remember something about that now.
[22:10] <dsmythies> KI7MT: What you see is my crude hack job at trying to eliminate, or at least reduce, all the errors due to the old theme.
[22:12] <KI7MT> dsmythies,  I see, I have not been not been on the 13.10 much.
[22:12] <KI7MT> 13.10 pages .. .
[22:20] <dsmythies> KI7MT: godbyk: For your possible interest: https://code.launchpad.net/~qbalazs/installation-guide/trunk/+merge/190783 (i'll ping him also)
[22:23] <godbyk> dsmythies: Thanks. The installation guide uses docbook, right?
[22:30] <KI7MT> godbyk, I think I opened pandoras box .. documents-x.page files and files-x.page files .. wow  that's allot of work.
[22:31] <dsmythies> godbyk: Ugh... Ugh... I forget. ... Yes, it looks DocBook ish to me. I'll be forced to remember better when I have to build it again.
[22:31] <KI7MT> Bad thing is, documents-x.page files nto on the excell spreadsheet ..
[22:31] <KI7MT> So we just add them in a needed ?
[22:31] <KI7MT> *as
[22:31] <dsmythies> yes, just add them
[22:31] <KI7MT> ok
[22:32] <KI7MT> There's only 16 of them .. LOL
[22:33] <KI7MT> 13 w/o the stubs though ..
[22:40] <KI7MT> 12 .. there's 3 stubbies :-)
[22:40] <KI7MT> *4
[22:51] <dsmythies> KI7MT: my 14.04 DeskTop VM is on the fritz again. There will be a delay before I can look at your MP.
[22:52] <KI7MT> dsmythies, There's no hurry .. I have plenty of other things to work on.
[23:20] <belkinsa> jono, can I PM you about something?
[23:21] <jono> belkinsa, sure
[23:25] <dsmythies> KI7MT: I see other issues in the mapping of spreadsheet files to actual .page files. Am soring it out.
[23:25] <dsmythies> *sorting
[23:30] <KI7MT> dsmythies,sri, im not following  what your saying, whats the issue?
[23:33] <dsmythies> KI7MT: There are some .page files that exist that are not on the spreadsheet (more than you just found). There are some files listed in the spreadsheet that do not actually exist.
[23:35] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Oh yes, many more .. and allog of .stub files in the /C that dont need to be there, was going to propose we move them to /C/templates as I gave an idea or two on how we could use that setup./
[23:35] <KI7MT> dsmythies, Im on my phone and fat fingers not typing too well .. lol
[23:38] <dsmythies> KI7MT: gobbyk knows about the .stub files and why they are there and such. Myself, I forget what Kevin said about them, last cycle when I asked.
[23:40] <KI7MT> dsmythies, I know what they are for when using the gnome system of tags and yelp to create templates.
[23:40] <KI7MT> dsmythies, But if we're not using that system it's just cluttering up the source tree.
[23:42] <KI7MT> dsmythies, We have /C/Templates/games :-) .. not sure that's being using, but it could  as there's solitaire installed by default I think.,
[23:43] <godbyk> The stub files are just unfinished page files.
[23:43] <godbyk> Page files that someone started or thought might be needed but didn't actually finish writing.
[23:44] <KI7MT> Yeah, there are allof of them, like 50+ or so, and allot of old dates, 2012 ish ,, was gonna propose we move them into /C/templates
[23:45] <godbyk> I wouldn't put them in templates as they're not templates.
[23:46] <KI7MT> Ok,  good point, I started playing wiht Shaun's cheatsheet, making  pages for those as a quick ref.
[23:46] <KI7MT> Not in ubuntu-docs source tree though
[23:48] <KI7MT> like yelp tables.page  and pulls up the tables page with examples etc etc
[23:49] <KI7MT> examples being the Mallard code we'd need to use in the docs, not just the final table render.
[23:50] <KI7MT> Cuz right now I'm using Gnotes or Tomboy for quick ref stuff ..cut and paste things..
[23:55] <KI7MT> I guess  could use Gedit code snippets or something too .. just thought yelp help was good way to display them


[22:04] <eylul> Ovenwerks you around?
[22:04] <OvenWerks> sort of ... more oval I think
[22:05] <eylul> ok.. what is the final state of controls on 17.04?
[22:05] <eylul> which version do we have?
[22:06] <eylul> my plans for testing kind of went sideways, but trying to prepare release notes
[22:06] <OvenWerks> eylul: one more than last cycle. Almost exactly the same
[22:06] <eylul> ok
[22:06] <eylul> so none of the new UI?
[22:06] <OvenWerks> It also has on the fly cpu goveror changing
[22:06] <OvenWerks> No new GUI
[22:06] <eylul> wait..
[22:06] <OvenWerks> Just one extra check box
[22:07] <eylul> oh ok..
[22:07] <OvenWerks> no tabs or anything though
[22:07] <eylul> so umm "ubuntustudio-controls have now the option to change CPU governor on the fly"
[22:07] <OvenWerks> Ya, it doesn't stay over boot yet
[22:08] <eylul> wait you say it isn't the new UI but..
[22:08] <eylul> from what you say, it is the new UI
[22:08] <eylul> as in the UI you made
[22:08] <eylul> (when I say new UI, I mean the glade file that was created after 16.10 release)
[22:09] <eylul> (not necessarily the details)
[22:09] <OvenWerks> it does not have the GUI with tabs and groups and stuff just one new checkbox
[22:09] <OvenWerks> ok yes then
[22:09] <OvenWerks> It has been tested and works... at least on my machine HW
[22:10] <eylul> awesome
[22:10] <OvenWerks> (as in tested in 17.04 beta)
[22:10] <eylul> *nods*
[22:10] <eylul> so actually it is
[22:11] <OvenWerks> I keep DL the ISO to test... and when I go to write to the drive... I realize I need to DL the next day :P
[22:12] <eylul> "an experimental version of the ubuntustudio-controls is live"
[22:13] <eylul> heee
[22:13] <eylul> :D
[22:13] <OvenWerks> I don't think that is what we are shipping though
[22:13] <eylul> we are not?
[22:13] <OvenWerks> Did we ever get 32 bit to not ship wine?
[22:13] <eylul> I am not sure...
[22:14] <eylul> quite frankly I have some opinions on that discussion from ML. Wine is useful to anybody using LMMS and needs to be reliant to windows VSTs, but if it destabilizes the system, it destabilizes it, and that's the end of the story really
[22:15] <OvenWerks> ISO has been built two or three times since. A user can add it after the fact... then it is wine and lmms problem not STudio's
[22:16] <eylul> eh.. true, especially since LMMS can be installed without vst support
[22:17] <eylul> (and that is more or less what we have on by default)
[22:17] <eylul> ok so. new version of krita, new controls (unless it got reverted, I am putting it in for now, we can always remove it tomorrow before release) and..
[22:18] <OvenWerks> I also like having 32 and 64 bit with the same SW on them.
[22:18] <eylul> "wine was removed from the 32bit ISO"
[22:18] <eylul> yeah that's a bit weird to remove it from one side and not the other
[22:18] <OvenWerks> 64bit alreday doesn't have wine
[22:19] <eylul> but 32bit did?
[22:20] <OvenWerks> Ya, the VST server for lmms is 32bit only
[22:20] <eylul> that is separate through, you can install 32bit wine on a 64bit system
[22:20] <OvenWerks> Not that long ago windows was 32bit only.
[22:21] <OvenWerks> we do not want a multi arc ISO!
[22:21] <eylul> I am not THAT young :D
[22:21] <eylul> hhehehe
[22:23] <eylul> wait.. did we also do some cleanup at the ubuntustudio-meta? anything there is visible to the userside?
[22:24] <OvenWerks> Ya, there are now 32bit vst 64bit vst (and hosts too) and to confuse things there is now VST3. LMMS only supports 32 bit VST2
[22:24] <OvenWerks> I am not sure about the metas
[22:24] <eylul> well quite honestly..
[22:25] <eylul> I have yet to come across a vst3 I needed to use. granted, my use of VSTs and LMMS in general is pretty narrow and specific but..
[22:25] <OvenWerks> on the other hand... who would have made those changes?
[22:25] <eylul> I know ross was poking at the bugs
[22:25] <eylul> not sure what happened to them through
[22:27] <krytarik> eylul: "wine was removed from the 32bit ISO" - that didn't work though.
[22:27] <OvenWerks> yes there are a lot of 32bit VST2s.
[22:27] <eylul> Krytarik thanks.. so no changes to wine situation?
[22:27] <krytarik> Nop.
[22:27] <eylul> so..
[22:27] <eylul> umm that goes under known issues... which,...
[22:28] <eylul> what did wine break exactly?
[22:28] <eylul> or is anything broken to note in release notes?
[22:30] <eylul> (also wow, ubuntustudio-graphics is still on proposed. *cringes*, I guess no Krita for this release)
[22:30] <eylul> wait nvm
[22:31] <eylul> *is still confused by launchpad*
[22:31] <krytarik> Hah.
[22:32] <krytarik> Also, some of these are relevant for us too: http://wiki.xubuntu.org/releases/17.04/release-notes
[22:32] <eylul> *goes to check
[22:33] <krytarik> I'll mention we don't have 'sgt-launcher' yet - and given the different target group, I think we shouldn't either.
[22:34] <eylul> sgt-launcher?
[22:34] <eylul> (Ok I have no idea which one of these bugs affects us)
[22:34] <krytarik> It's mentioned in their notes - and irrelevant to us.
[22:35] <eylul> oh
[22:36] <eylul> does the installer issue affect us?
[22:36] <eylul> (assumes most of the general issues do)
[22:36] <eylul> (outside the puzzles)
[22:40] <krytarik> Yeah, that's why I specifically mentioned the puzzles thingy.
[22:40] <eylul> ok
[22:43] <eylul> Xfce Indicator Plugin: Label missing from "Clear Known Indicators" dialog does this really affect us? we don't use the same themes and icons
[22:47] <krytarik> Theme not, icons yes, but this is related to the entire button label (including icon) - https://launchpadlibrarian.net/294982464/Screenshot_2016-11-25_20-40-37.png
[22:48] <eylul> oh
[22:48] <eylul> I see. ok
[22:48] <eylul> hmm maybe we should just link to xubuntu and ubuntu bug reports for reference rather than trying to copy paste
[22:48] <eylul> *does that :D
[22:51] <krytarik> Yeah, with appropriate notes, wfm.
[22:54] <eylul> Ubuntustudio shares some of the desktop features with Xubuntu. Please see Xubuntu release notes for additional information.
[22:55] <eylul> there
[22:55] <eylul> it has a link
[22:56] <eylul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
[22:57] <OvenWerks> I thought we were supposed to have Ardour 5.5
[22:57] <krytarik> eylul: Fix "==General==" pls.
[22:57] <krytarik> !info ardour
[22:59] <eylul> ok I have access to website for release, although we will need to type something
[23:00] <eylul> ok while I am here
[23:00] <eylul> !info Blender
[23:00] <eylul> !info KDEnlive
[23:01] <eylul> !info gimp
[23:01] <eylul> !info qJackCtl
[23:01] <eylul> !info scribus
[23:01] <eylul> ... wow we need to update scribus
[23:01] <eylul> !info darktable
[23:02] <eylul> ????
[23:02] <OvenWerks> Suprise!
[23:02] <eylul> what on earth?
[23:02] <eylul> wait.. did we lose Darktable from the repo?
[23:02] <eylul> !info pitivi
[23:02] <eylul> !info inkscape
[23:03] <OvenWerks> try darktable with lower case D
[23:03] <eylul> that's what I did
[23:03] <eylul> :)
[23:03] <eylul> hang on
[23:04] <OvenWerks> http://packages.ubuntu.com/zesty/darktable
[23:05] <eylul> hmmm..
[23:05] <eylul> strange ok..
[23:05] <OvenWerks> 64 bit only it says... the only depends for 64 bit are
[23:06] <krytarik> eylul: And you can drop LP #1550186 there.
[23:06] <OvenWerks> libc6
[23:06] <eylul> oh nice
[23:06] <eylul> *listens to ovenwerks*
[23:07] <OvenWerks> I can't see why libc6 would be 64bit only though
[23:07] <eylul> version issue?
[23:08] <eylul> quite frankly, you are not very likely to be using darktable if you are on 32bit, its actually surprisingly demanding app
[23:08] <OvenWerks> supports arm64 too.
[23:09] <OvenWerks> demanding on Arm?
[23:09] <eylul> demanding for an old computer
[23:09] <OvenWerks> most are boxes are like 2gram
[23:09] <OvenWerks> s/are/arm/
[23:11] <eylul> no I meant if you are using 32bit computer at this point, chances are you are using a pretty old computer, and darktable has a pretty heavy in terms of CPU etc usage. (or it feels like it anyway, not that I benchmarked it or anything)
[23:11]  * eylul has been doing quite a bit of photography based work lately
[23:12] <eylul> ok, all fixes to release notes in
[23:12] <eylul> I am emailing ML to keep ross updated.
[23:14] <krytarik> → https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/darktable/2.2.1-3
[23:17] <eylul> ouch
[23:17] <eylul> ok let me finish emailing then add this to the release notes..
[23:17] <eylul> thanks for digging this up
[23:20] <OvenWerks> Our 64 bit iso has Darktable
[23:23] <krytarik> Heh, this is linked in the relevant Debian bug report: https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/blob/master/src/views/view.c#L328-L332
[23:24] <OvenWerks> displayCAL has a beg screen :P
[23:25] <krytarik> lol
[23:26]  * OvenWerks needs a colorimeter first thank you
[23:26] <krytarik> Also of note: !dt_conf_get_bool("please_let_me_suffer_by_using_32bit_darktable") :P
[23:27] <eylul> OvenWerks I know
[23:27] <eylul> :/
[23:27] <OvenWerks> so darktable should be buildable as 32 bit anyway.
[23:28] <OvenWerks> The one son who might be interested in Darktable has the 32bit machine :P
[23:28] <eylul> Ovenwerks: I think the issue is less if it is buildable, and more if it crashes.
[23:28] <eylul> awww
[23:28] <OvenWerks> (the other has kubuntu)
[23:29]  * eylul has been using KDE on top of ubuntustudio lately.
[23:29] <eylul> (HiDPI *sighs*)
[23:29] <OvenWerks> KDE has some "won't fix issues" with window stacking.
[23:29] <eylul> *nods*
[23:29] <eylul> well
[23:29] <OvenWerks> ie dialogs end up under the main program
[23:30] <eylul> I have been noticing that yes
[23:30] <OvenWerks> The user thinks the application is frozen
[23:30] <OvenWerks> kde refuses to reconize standard x11 window stacking commands
[23:31] <eylul> well xfce is nearly impossible to use without a magnifier
[23:32] <eylul> otherwise I miss xfce
[23:32] <OvenWerks> KDE's Audio applet works fine, but I find pavucontrol more straight forward and has more controls
[23:33] <OvenWerks> Ah, that is a problem then
[23:33] <eylul> pretty much
[23:33] <eylul> I mean you can adjust the panel, but no way to scale most of the UI if I remember correctly
[23:33] <OvenWerks> alt-up_arrow?
[23:33] <eylul> no I mean..
[23:33] <eylul> without lowering the resolution
[23:34] <eylul> or zooming in
[23:34] <OvenWerks> ya, I know.
[23:34] <OvenWerks> the text is too small
[23:34] <eylul> *nods*
[23:34] <eylul> KDE is the closest that gets.
[23:35] <OvenWerks> well, unity is going away (with mir) so maybe gnome session will get some work.
[23:35] <eylul> that would be great
[23:35] <eylul> if it does
[23:35] <OvenWerks> MS says so. vanilla will have gnome session by 18.04
[23:35] <eylul> there is a lot I like about KDE but I miss xfce's stability. (I love activities)
[23:35] <eylul> yep
[23:36] <OvenWerks> xfce sort of has that...
[23:36] <OvenWerks> you can save several sets of settings
[23:36] <eylul> ok so.. ugh.. "darktable is no longer supported from upstream for 32bit machines, so some instability might occur" (krytarik ovenwerks, this looks good?)
[23:37] <OvenWerks> eylul: have you tried fvwm?
[23:37] <krytarik> eylul: Erm, it's just not there to begin with..
[23:37] <OvenWerks> eylul: we do not have it for 32 bit
[23:37] <eylul> Ovenwerks: I mostly use activities to autoswitch desktops and timetracker with it. (with KDE it is nicer because you can give names, and disable some stuff you are not using)
[23:38] <eylul> oh it was completely removed?
[23:38] <OvenWerks> yes, darktable for 32 bit is no longer in the archives
[23:39] <OvenWerks> The user _could_ DL the src and build I suppose
[23:39] <eylul> "Darktable is removed from 32bit ISO due to lack of upstream support"
[23:39] <OvenWerks> but it sounds like a lost cause. Are there any other similar programs we could/do include?
[23:40] <eylul> there is rawtherapee
[23:40] <eylul> I never used it, but people do use it
[23:40] <OvenWerks> we have that
[23:40] <eylul> *nods*
[23:41] <eylul> I think darktable needs to stay for 64bit.
[23:41] <eylul> even if it is only 64bit
[23:41] <OvenWerks> ubuntu want to stop support for 32 isos..
[23:41] <eylul> but yeah there is an - yeah I know
[23:41] <OvenWerks> I agree.
[23:41] <eylul> I am not sure I agree with that.
[23:42] <OvenWerks> some of the better hw for audio is still 32 bit.
[23:42] <eylul> hw?
[23:42] <OvenWerks> hardware
[23:42] <OvenWerks> computers if you like
[23:43] <OvenWerks> -controls is still the old one.
[23:43] <eylul> oh
[23:44] <eylul> I see
[23:44] <OvenWerks> I guess it hasn't made it out of proposed?
[23:44] <eylul> old one == ?
[23:44] <eylul> same thing on yakkety yak?
[23:44] <eylul> broken one that is one version ahead?
[23:45] <krytarik> eylul: Two things regarding the release notes still: 1.) "Zesty Zapus/ReleaseNotes" has to be without space; and 2.) I know this is a common mistake, but "Ubuntustudio" → "Ubuntu Studio"
[23:45] <OvenWerks> Ya, but... it doesn't ask for sudo
[23:45] <OvenWerks> so it doesn't work
[23:46] <OvenWerks> oh hang on I am still in the live session
[23:46] <OvenWerks> scratch that
[23:46]  * eylul begins laughing at ovenwerks
[23:47]  * OvenWerks has to decide whihc partition he should use to install on.
[23:47] <eylul> Krytarik: done and done
[23:47] <krytarik> Thanks.
[23:47]  * OvenWerks still doesn't like whisker or the theme
[23:47]  * eylul really needs to log off and lie down soon.
[23:48] <krytarik> -controls is indeed the old one still though.
[23:48] <eylul> ok
[23:48] <eylul> I put a moratorium on the terms "old one" and "new one" when talking about -controls
[23:48] <eylul> :D
[23:48] <eylul> there is 3 things out there right now
[23:49] <eylul> old version (yakkety and older) that nobody touched in ages, lets call it original controls, ovenwerks(1) which is functional, but not much features, ovenwerks(2) which is broken
[23:49] <eylul> :D
[23:50] <OvenWerks> ovenwerks(3) no one has seen
[23:50] <eylul> which one is at the release currently?
[23:50]  * eylul mockglares at ovenwerks
[23:50] <OvenWerks> original
[23:51] <eylul> ok so I am removing that line from release notes
[23:51] <OvenWerks> but OW1 has been put in proposed and tested and was supposed to have gotten into the repo. Ross would know.
[23:51] <eylul> ok.
[23:51] <krytarik> There is nothing in -proposed.
[23:52] <eylul> *snorts*
[23:52] <OvenWerks> not sure where I got it from then
[23:52] <OvenWerks> Ross asked me to test... might be his PPA
[23:52]  * eylul is doubling over laughing
[23:53] <OvenWerks> you tickle easy
[23:53] <eylul> controls went back and forth one time too many :D
[23:55] <OvenWerks> Installer still after 5 releases warns of partition size change even when the partition is left the same size :/
[23:55] <eylul> 2016-10-18 yup it is the old one
[23:56] <eylul> original one
[23:56] <eylul> !
[23:56] <eylul> *cringes*
[23:57] <eylul> has the bug been documented somewhere?
[23:57] <OvenWerks> I think so. I don't like opening browsers while installing though
[23:57] <eylul> :D
[23:58] <eylul> ok release notes fixed for ubuntustudio-controls. removed that line
[23:58] <OvenWerks> The image for audio deffinitely has the old ardour.
[23:58] <krytarik> eylul: Oh wow, you put one space more in there, instead of dropping the one :D - "[[Zesty Zapus/Release Notes]]"