[00:41] <bigjools> wallyworld_, thumper: should have you a working maas in about an hour, need to download 300MB of updates and re-commission nodes
[00:42] <wallyworld_> rightio
[01:39]  * thumper noticed that the ubuntu edge igg has stalled just under 7m
[01:40] <thumper> bigjools: if you could fling wallyworld_ and me the details for the environments.yaml file, that'd be swell (when it's ready)
[01:40] <bigjools> I will
[01:46] <davecheney> what is a MIR ? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-s-mongodb
[01:48]  * thumper looks
[01:49] <thumper> davecheney: where is MIR mentioned?
[01:50] <thumper> ah
[01:50] <thumper> Main Inclusion Request
[01:50] <thumper> AFAIK
[01:50] <thumper> at least that is what I think it is
[01:51] <davecheney> I only know MRE
[01:51] <thumper> which is?
[01:52] <davecheney> Meals Ready to Eat
[01:54] <thumper> haha
[01:56] <thumper> wallyworld_: I noticed today that when I started up a second machine on ec2, and it had two ccontainers on it
[01:56] <thumper> wallyworld_: when the lxc provisioner task started, it didn't get told about the new containers
[01:57] <thumper> so they never started
[01:57] <thumper> the two containers on machine 0 started
[01:57] <thumper> but their machine agent would have been running first
[01:57] <bigjools> thumper: which ssh key of yours should I put on here?
[01:57] <thumper> whereas the machine 1 would have been booted after the two containers in state
[01:57]  * thumper looks
[01:57] <wallyworld_> it should have queried state
[01:58] <thumper> wallyworld_: I agree, it should have
[01:58] <thumper> wallyworld_: but it does that by starting the watcher
[01:58] <wallyworld_> you think this is a new bug?
[01:58] <thumper> wallyworld_: what I'm saying is that something is screwy there
[01:58] <thumper> probably
[01:58] <thumper> may need some more poking
[01:59] <wallyworld_> afaik the watcher returns the inital state of play
[01:59] <thumper> yes it should
[01:59] <thumper> but it seems in this case, it didn't
[01:59] <thumper> I probably need some extra tracing...
[01:59] <wallyworld_> so i wonder what has changed. i can't recall any of us touching this stuff
[01:59] <thumper> no
[01:59] <thumper> but the machine agent has had some messing around with the state -> api stuff recently
[02:00] <wallyworld_> hmmmm
[02:00] <thumper> also, general watchers have seen change since this worked before
[02:00] <bigjools> thumper: ?
[02:00] <thumper> bigjools: I dm'ed you the key
[02:00] <bigjools> ah nm got it
[02:00] <bigjools> was looking on LP  and you have loads
[02:00] <thumper> yeah
[02:00] <thumper> jake is the current machine
[02:00] <thumper> elwood was the last one
[02:01] <bigjools> jake is my eldest twin's name
[02:01] <thumper> :)
[02:01] <thumper> what did you call the other?
[02:01] <bigjools> he's getting better, thank goodness
[02:02] <bigjools> Harley
[02:02] <thumper> you missed an opportunity there
[02:02] <bigjools> s/missed/avoided/
[02:02] <thumper> there was a funny facebook message the other day about nature names
[02:02] <thumper> Dragonhunter FTW
[02:02] <bigjools>  /o\
[02:03] <thumper> luckily for the children, i can't have any more
[02:03] <thumper> unless advances in stem cell research changes things
[02:43] <jtv> thumper: any chance you could review this branch for me: https://codereview.appspot.com/11923043/ ?
[02:43] <thumper> jtv: there is always a chance
[02:43]  * jtv rolls dice
[02:44] <jtv> davecheney: my information is that MRE stands not for Meal Ready to Eat, but Meal Rejected by Ethiopians.
[02:55]  * thumper starts reviewing
[03:01] <thumper> done, school pickup, back shortly
[03:26]  * thumper considers a branch that allows setting log levels remotely
[03:45] <axw> *sigh* gotta go see the neighbour, fence fell over
[03:45] <axw> bbs
[03:54] <thumper> :(
[07:38] <rvba> Morning guys… I've got a tiny branch up for review… in case someone is free to review it: https://codereview.appspot.com/11913043/
[07:58] <TheMue> morning
[07:59] <axw> morning
[08:00] <rogpeppe> rvba: reviewed
[08:00] <rogpeppe> axw, TheMue: mornin'
[08:01] <rvba> Thanks a lot rogpeppe.
[08:01] <axw> hey rog
[09:07] <rogpeppe> dimitern, fwereade: thanks for the reviews; responded. https://codereview.appspot.com/11932043/
[09:12] <dimitern> rogpeppe: me too :) (replied to one of your comments)
[09:13] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i like the idea of reusable constructs for writing tests, but not when using them is more work than doing the basic version.
[09:14] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i don't think statetesting.AssertStop gains us anything at all
[09:14] <dimitern> rogpeppe: how can it possibly be more work?
[09:15] <dimitern> rogpeppe: don't you use code completion? :)
[09:15] <rogpeppe> dimitern: is that why it's less work?
[09:15] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it's also less obvious than the basic version
[09:15] <rogpeppe> dimitern: and i like to keep test code as simple as possible
[09:16] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it should really be called AssertThatStopSucceeds
[09:16] <dimitern> rogpeppe: ohh..
[09:17] <dimitern> rogpeppe: :) well, ignore me then, but my point was to enforce consistency when possible
[09:17] <dimitern> rogpeppe: otherwise each module can be its own world because it makes sense there and then, rather than having a codebase-wide uniformity
[09:18] <jtv> Hi folks — how's tarmac doing today?
[09:18] <dimitern> jtv: still dead i think
[09:18]  * jtv wipes away tear
[09:19] <jtv> Did I hear mention of a workaround?
[09:19] <rogpeppe> dimitern: Assert(x.Stop(), IsNil) seems about evenly balanced with AssertStop in the code base
[09:19] <dimitern> jtv: manual landing
[09:19] <jtv> I don't think I have privileges for landing.  :(
[09:19] <dimitern> mgz: can you explain jtv about how can he land his code manually?
[09:20]  * rvba listens
[09:20]  * jtv turns on the water heater in anticipation
[09:20] <dimitern> rogpeppe: and if it was s.AssertStop(c, w) would it be better?
[09:20] <rogpeppe> dimitern: not really.
[09:21] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i like to see the Stop call directly in the code.
[09:21] <dimitern> rogpeppe: so you're not complaining about the length of the idents
[09:21] <jtv> FWIW for me as an outsider, Assert(x.Stop(), IsNil) is a lot easier to understand.  Might I suggest a compromise of "AssertStopSucceeds"?
[09:22] <rogpeppe> dimitern: not really. just the fact that it's a single line of code which i think is clearer written out each time than calling a function to do it
[09:22] <dimitern> rogpeppe: how about statetesting.AssertCanStopWhenSending then?
[09:22] <rogpeppe> jtv: exactly.
[09:22] <rogpeppe> jtv: thanks
[09:22] <fwereade> rogpeppe, dimitern: fwiw you can also defer AssertStop without dropping errors on the floor
[09:22] <dimitern> fwereade: ah! very good point
[09:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade: now *that* is a good reason for using it
[09:22] <fwereade> rogpeppe, dimitern: and once you're using it in one place you may as well keep doing so IMO
[09:23] <dimitern> exactly
[09:23] <dimitern> jtv, rvba: well don't know if mgz is around, but basically the process goes as follows
[09:24] <fwereade> rogpeppe, dimitern, jtv: and while we're bikeshedding -- AssertCleanStop?
[09:24] <jtv> The hard part is expressing both the side effect and the assertion.
[09:25] <rogpeppe> jtv: yeah
[09:25] <dimitern> 1) switch to trunk, 2) pull, 3) bzr merge lp:~user/juju-core/yourbranch, 4) go build ./... && go test ./... (in juju-core/), 5) if all pass (and assuming no live testing is needed), 6) commit locally, setting the commit message as in LP, 7)bzr push<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[09:25] <dimitern> jtv: rvba ^^
[09:26] <dimitern> 8) set MP to Merged + set revision in LP
[09:26] <mgz> dimitern: I odn;t think red squad have hte bot creds
[09:26] <dimitern> step 7) requires you to have access to go-bot's branch
[09:27] <mgz> or rather, red squad's ssh keys aren't on the launchpad bot accout
[09:27] <dimitern> mgz: ah, right, but did i summarize it well?
[09:27] <mgz> ypu
[09:27] <jtv> dimitern: thanks, that push URL was the part I was missing of course.
[09:27] <jtv> Should I give it a try anyway?
[09:28] <mgz> you can bzr info i
[09:28] <mgz> *it
[09:28] <dimitern> jtv: perhaps after all is done, you could push it to lp:~user/juju-core/trunk and let me or mgz push it to trunk for you until the ssh keys are sorted
[09:29] <mgz> running the test suite after merge and setting commit message in the mp will do
[09:29] <mgz> I can land pretty easily after that
[09:30] <jtv> mgz: "bzr info" says permission denied.  :(
[09:30] <mgz> right.
[09:30] <jtv> But yes, I guess I could just merge all my approved branches into a personal trunk for the time being.
[09:30] <jtv> I think bzr has just implemented netsplits.
[09:30] <mgz> oh, that would work too
[09:31] <jtv> I thought that was what you meant when you said "push it to lp:~user/juju-core/trunk".. ?
[09:31] <jtv> Sorry, what Dimiter meant.
[09:32] <mgz> well bundling lots of changes up there saves some time
[09:33]  * fwereade_ is going to try to find somewhere with coffee, bbiab
[09:34] <dimitern> jtv: but please, get in line so we won't introduce conflicts/breakages
[09:34] <dimitern> ideally, after bzr pull on trunk, run go build ./... && go test ./... before starting to merge to make sure trunk is sane
[09:34] <rogpeppe> perhaps we could make lbox submit work again for the time being
[09:35] <dimitern> rogpeppe: I don't think this is a good idea
[09:35] <rogpeppe> dimitern: ok
[09:36] <dimitern> rogpeppe: doing it manually will enforce some discipline and when the bot comes it'll be easier to switch
[09:36] <rogpeppe> dimitern: at least lbox submit checks that the code builds and is gofmt'd
[09:36] <jtv> dimitern: no need for that command line when just the age-old conventional "make check" will do.  :-)
[09:36] <jtv> It has the added advantage of giving clear failure output at the end if the tests failed.
[09:37] <jtv> With the manual command, any test failures may have scrolled out of view.
[09:38] <jtv> Or "make build check format" to combine building, testing, and formatting.
[09:43] <jtv> Anybody willing to review https://codereview.appspot.com/12018043 ?
[09:43] <dimitern> jtv: i'll take a look
[09:44] <jtv> Thanks
[09:45] <TheMue> And another review from my side: https://codereview.appspot.com/11910043/ ?
[09:45] <jtv> Looking
[09:46] <jtv> Oh, I already approved that one so I don't qualify.  :)
[09:47] <dimitern> TheMue: will take a look after jtv's review
[09:48] <TheMue> dimitern: great, cheers
[10:01] <wallyworld_> fwereade_: making a juju validate super command didn't work out very well. there were a number of dead ends, especially wrt flag processing for sub commands. the juju cmd infrastructure is really only designed for only one level of sub command off juju. so it will be easier just to land as is for now
[10:02] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i got this error trying to push to trunk as suggested:
[10:02] <rogpeppe> bzr: ERROR: Server sent an unexpected error: ('error', 'AppendRevisionsOnlyViolation', 'Operation denied because it would change the main history, which is not permitted by the append_revisions_only setting on branch "chroot-74851280:///~go-bot/juju-core/trunk/".')
[10:02] <dimitern> jtv: reviewed
[10:03] <rogpeppe> anyone got any idea what that error means?
[10:03] <jtv> Thanks dimitern
[10:03] <mgz> rogpeppe: you messed up the merge :)
[10:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe: hmm, not really - perhaps mgz or some lp/bzr guys?
[10:04] <rogpeppe> mgz: ok, so *how* did i mess up the merge?
[10:04] <jtv> Might it mean that somebody pushed something during your pull/merge/commit/push?
[10:04] <mgz> if for instance you merge trunk into your branch, then try pushing your branch over trunk, you get
[10:04] <jtv> Which then wouldn't be in the revisions you were trying to push?
[10:04] <rogpeppe> jtv: i'd have expected a "branch has diverged" error in that case
[10:04] <mgz> you have all the revs, history hasn't diverged, but you rearranged it's order
[10:04] <rogpeppe> ah, i know what i did wrong!
[10:05] <axw> if anyone cares about debug-hooks, I've got it working now: https://code.launchpad.net/~axwalk/juju-core/lp1027876-implement-debug-hooks/+merge/177353
[10:05] <axw> I'll add more tests tomorrow, and hopefully propose it
[10:05] <jtv> Thanks for the review dimitern
[10:05] <rogpeppe> i forgot to pull from trunk before merging
[10:06] <dimitern> jtv: yw, tried to adhere to the way you prefer reading them :)
[10:06] <rogpeppe> axw: nice one!
[10:07] <jtv> dimitern: I noticed.  Thoughtful of you — it really helps.
[10:07] <axw> gtg, night folks
[10:08] <jtv> nn axw
[10:08] <dimitern> jtv: it's strange that even though I put a blank line before every comment, not all of them appear like that in the mail
[10:08] <jtv> No, Rietveld is sneaky and likes to remove them when you edit them.
[10:08] <dimitern> jtv: aahh! good to know
[10:11] <TheMue> dimitern: seen your s/.  Foo /. Foo/ statements in a review. it seems to be a convention for some of us to use two spaces after a point. i already wondered too.
[10:12] <dimitern> TheMue: That's madness :)
[10:12] <dimitern> TheMue: the only way I've seen this happen is when I use M-q in emacs to auto-format and align a comment block
[10:12] <TheMue> dimitern: dunno, maybe it's normal in some countries. but not in Germany.
[10:13] <TheMue> dimitern: ah, emacs, may be a reason.
[10:13] <dimitern> TheMue: when you have // ...something.\n// something else. M-q will make it // ...something.  something else.
[10:13] <dimitern> (2 spaces after the .)
[10:14] <TheMue> dimitern: strange behavior, would like to know the reason
[10:18] <dimitern> TheMue: perhaps, as with everything in emacs, it's configurable, but I don't know
[10:19] <jtv> It's something I learned in my typing course.  I find it greatly helps legibility, especially with the weird stuff we type with lots of dots that aren't full stops.
[10:19] <dimitern> ha! I found it
[10:20] <dimitern> it's called "sentence-end-double-space", and if set to nil won't do it
[10:20] <jtv> There is a rant on the internet that says it's nonsense, and people who oppose double-spacing invariable point to it with no more than the implication that since it's on the internet, it's the unassailable truth.
[10:20] <jtv> The rant starts out with a few inobtrusive assumptions:
[10:21] <jtv> (1) There is no such thing as monospace fonts, anywhere in the world, ever.
[10:21] <dimitern> LOL
[10:21] <TheMue> hehe
[10:21] <dimitern> i'd stop reading after (1) :)
[10:21] <dimitern> i know possibly only one person ever who used proportional fonts while editing code
[10:22] <jtv> (2) Software such as LaTeX can reliably tell the difference between a dot and a full stop, despite the fact that it regularly needs help telling them apart.
[10:22] <rogpeppe> dimitern: :-)
[10:22] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i know quite a few :)
[10:22] <jtv> So do I...  Never could quite bring myself to try it.
[10:22] <jtv> Should I proceed with assumption (3)?
[10:22] <dimitern> why try it - it's *evil*
[10:23] <rogpeppe> dimitern: ha ha
[10:23] <rogpeppe> dimitern: you get more legible text in less space. what's not to like?
[10:23] <jtv> Sometimes I think I'd like an IDE to render unformatted block comments as flowing, proportionally-kerned text.
[10:23] <TheMue> Funnily Smalltalk environments often use non-monospace fonts and still format their methods (because that's what you see in the code browser) in a very  aesthetic way.
[10:23] <jtv> SmallTalk.  So far ahead the rest of the world will never catch up.  :)
[10:24] <TheMue> jtv: Smalltalk, not SmallTalk :P
[10:24] <dimitern> reading fiction and reading code is quite a different thing and requires different focus
[10:24] <jtv> I believe it.
[10:24] <TheMue> jtv: A wonderful language for some domains, sadly very bad regarding concurrency and distribution. *sigh*
[10:25] <dimitern> when i'm reading code I notice characters, then words, in fiction, I rarely notice such things, because they won't induce a compile error :)
[10:25] <TheMue> dimitern: NOT? *rofl*
[10:25] <jtv> Maybe "fiction" is not quite the right word.
[10:25] <jtv> Because some code is fictional, and much non-code writing is nonfiction.
[10:25] <dimitern> ok then, natural text?
[10:25] <jtv> Sure.
[10:25] <jtv> Running text.  Human-readable text.  Prose.
[10:26] <jtv> (Prose isn't so good because it raises the question: what about poetry?)
[10:26] <TheMue> Isn't code pure ficction? The idea of something that happens? :D
[10:26] <jtv> No, in code we oppose a sea of troubles and by opposing end them.
[10:27] <jtv> Which I feel is nobler in the mind than suffering the guns and roses of outrageous fortune.
[10:27] <TheMue> And introduce new troubles.
[10:27] <jtv> I don't think the Bard mentioned secondary bugs.
[10:27] <dimitern> reminds me of wordpress' moto "code is poetry" :)
[10:28] <jtv> Then again, he didn't actually say "guns 'n' roses" either.
[10:28] <jtv> All code should be in dactylic hexameter.    Variables!
[10:30] <dimitern> why do you need variables when you have lambdas? :)
[10:30] <jtv> Ich weiß nicht was soll es bedeuten / das ich so traurig bin / eine Routine aus ur-alten Zeiten...
[10:31] <dimitern> even I got most of this
[10:31] <TheMue> jtv: Hey, wow
[10:31] <dimitern> it my poor german
[10:31] <jtv> TheMue: sorry, didn't mean to insult your cultural heritage.  :-)
[10:31] <dimitern> *with
[10:32] <jtv> But I do feel like that sometimes when I read ancient functions.
[10:35] <TheMue> jtv: no problem, only have been surprised
[10:35] <rogpeppe> trivial CL (func rename and arg reorder) https://codereview.appspot.com/12021043/
[10:35] <dimitern> TheMue: reviewed
[10:36] <jtv> TheMue: what surprised me is that quite possibly the most beautiful German I've ever heard was an American reciting that poem off the cuff...
[10:36] <TheMue> dimitern: cheers
[10:36] <TheMue> rogpeppe: question about godoc
[10:36] <rogpeppe> TheMue: go on
[10:37] <TheMue> rogpeppe: the line break after // ...directory. (line 54 in upgrader.go).
[10:37] <TheMue> rogpeppe: will it be visible in the godocs too? your intention seems to be a paragraph, isn't it?
[10:37] <rogpeppe> TheMue: godoc will reformat the whole thing into one paragraph
[10:38] <rogpeppe> TheMue: i should probably cfmt the comment
[10:38] <jtv> rogpeppe: you have my vote.
[10:38] <rogpeppe> jtv: thanks
[10:38] <TheMue> rogpeppe: that's what I expected.
[10:38] <TheMue> rogpeppe: won't an empty line render as a new paragraph?
[10:38] <rogpeppe> TheMue: yes
[10:39] <rogpeppe> TheMue: i didn't really intend them to be different paras
[10:39] <TheMue> rogpeppe: ah, ok
[10:39] <TheMue> rogpeppe: reviewd
[10:39] <rogpeppe> TheMue: thanks
[11:03]  * TheMue => lunch
[11:03] <mgz> hm, no mail since friday, must be imapclean day
[11:05] <rogpeppe> another pretty trivial CL: https://codereview.appspot.com/12025043
[11:09] <dimitern> rogpeppe: does the upgrader now use the API?
[11:10] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yes
[11:10] <rogpeppe> dimitern: although cmd/jujud doesn't yet use worker/upgrader
[11:10] <dimitern> rogpeppe: ok (updating the blueprint)
[11:10] <dimitern> rogpeppe: also, you've got a review
[11:10] <rogpeppe> dimitern: thanks
[11:22] <natefinch> Hi all. In theory I am joining the juju dev team today, though HR/IT/whoever has not actually given me any login information. So I figured I'd just come here and say hi.
[11:24] <dimitern> natefinch: hey! welcome aboard!
[11:25] <dimitern> natefinch: so you'll be working on juju-core or on some related project, like the gui, etc. ?
[11:26] <fwereade_> natefinch, welcome!
[11:26] <natefinch> Hi, thanks.  You'll have to forgive me if I am not up on my IRC skills... it's been... oh god, like 15 years since I was last on irc, in college.
[11:27] <natefinch> I'll be on juju-core, from what Mark Ramm said
[11:27] <fwereade_> natefinch, not to worry :)
[11:28] <fwereade_> dimitern, hey, did the last one we released actually use the api for the machiner? or did that not get in in time?
[11:28] <dimitern> fwereade_: I think it did
[11:29] <fwereade_> dimitern, oh bugger
[11:29] <fwereade_> dimitern, ah well, not to worry
[11:31] <natefinch> mramm:  Morning, Mark. This appears to be the only place I can access currently, FYI.
[11:31] <mramm> ok
[11:32] <dimitern> fwereade_, rogpeppe, wallyworld_: standup
[11:33] <wallyworld_> i would if the stupid google plugin would upgrade
[11:33] <TheMue> natefinch: heya, welcome here in the channel too
[11:33] <dimitern> natefinch: if you want to join the daily standup: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/f497381ca4d154890227b3b35a85a985b894b471
[11:33] <natefinch> awesome, thanks
[11:34] <natefinch> TheMue: plugin installing... forgot I hadn't done that yet
[11:43] <ehg> hope i'm not intruding, but is there anyway to do https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1089291 manually atm? like modifying the mongo db?
[11:43] <_mup_> Bug #1089291: terminate-machine --force <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1089291>
[11:54] <mgz> mramm, natefinch: IS has the ticket for nate's new staff task, but it seems no one is on to get started with it yet.
[11:55] <natefinch> alexlist is giving me a hand
[11:55] <mramm> mgz: yea I see nobody is on vanguard yet
[11:55] <mgz> ace, if alex is handling it that's fine.
[11:56] <alexlist> Nobody around until deej starts working today ... looks very holiday-ish today ...
[12:09]  * dimitern lunch
[12:37] <mgz> dear go, have working juju on lcy02 finally
[12:37] <mgz> that was painful
[13:16] <rogpeppe> lunch
[13:27] <mgz> warning all, the bot is up but not yet tweaked into happiness
[13:27] <mgz> I'll mail the list when I get it rolling properly again
[13:43] <TheMue> mgz: thanks for your effort already
[14:30] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: how about this for an API in common to both the machine and unit agent? http://paste.ubuntu.com/5925443/
[14:31] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, LGTM
[14:31] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: thanks
[15:03] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, are you likely to be implementing a state.Agent interface roughly matching that? because I find myself heading in a very similar dirction, I think
[15:04] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i've just done the front end bits. i'm just about to do the server side.
[15:04] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i'm not sure quite what you mean by the state.Agent interface
[15:04] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, as Authenticator, Remover, Lifer, whatever
[15:05] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, ISTM that making unit and machine's agenty methods accessible via a State.Agent() call using state.entity() would fit nicely
[15:05] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: perhaps. i'm not sure.
[15:05] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i thought i might do Jobs as a special case
[15:05] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: as it doesn't really make sense to implement Unit.Jobs
[15:06] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: the other methods aren't really Agent - they're *used* by the agent API, which i think is a bit of a different thing
[15:06] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, fwiw I think that "a unit is an agent with just one job" is quite a neat model
[15:06] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i considered it, but i don't think it helps much
[15:07] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, and remeber this isn't about how the API looks, it's about how it's convenient to present state to the API layer for clarity/convenience
[15:07] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: it makes the unit agent code more complex (what's the point of having a Jobs method that you don't consult?)
[15:07] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, it eliminates the distinction between machine and unit agent
[15:08] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: ah, is that your intention?
[15:08] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, except we're talking about different things still
[15:08] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, long-term, maybe
[15:08] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, but the jobs thing seems like the biggest issue
[15:08] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: it seems pretty trivial to me
[15:08] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i'd just put a dynamic type check in the Job API entry point
[15:09] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, indeed, and so "an agent is a thing that runs jobs on behalf of some entity" becomes an nice clear accurate explanation
[15:09] <rogpeppe> s/Job/Jobs
[15:09] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i like the fact that the unit agent code is simpler than the machine agent code
[15:09] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: because it doesn't need to inspect dynamic jobs to run
[15:10] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, but the thing I'm thinking about today is state.Agent, which would have a whole bunch of methods used by various bits of the api, eg uniter machiner upgrader
[15:11] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, if that's not on your mind then all the better, we won't collide and you can see if you like it when I propose ;)
[15:11] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i think it's probably better to have separate interfaces for each piece of the API
[15:12] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: rather than one agent interface to rule them all
[15:12] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: tbh i'd prefer it if each of those interfaces was defined in the respective API server package
[15:12] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: rather than in state
[15:12] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i think that matches Go's post-hoc interface definition idiom better
[15:12] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, I am not talking about the interfaces exposed by the API, I am talking about the interfaces exposed *to* the API
[15:13] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: that's what i'm talking about too
[15:14] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i don't think the state package should need to second-guess the interfaces needed by the APIs built on top of it
[15:14] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, in my mind, it's not second-guess, it's responding to clear need
[15:15] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: it's unnecessary - each of those API packages can define their own interface to abstract out the relevant parts of the state package
[15:15] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: AFAICS
[15:17] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: of course, state needs to define interfaces when it actually returns those interfaces (e.g. Lifer), but i'm not sure that it needs to know about Agent, for example. that seems like something built on top of it, at a different level.
[15:17] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: but i'm interested to hear your take on it too
[15:18] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, I dunno, I think that the agent concept is already more than a little embedded in state
[15:18] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, AgentTools
[15:18] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, SetAganetAlive
[15:18] <fwereade_> er whatever
[15:18] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: yes, there are bits and pieces
[15:19] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, I think that collecting them together will actually be pretty clear
[15:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: as is necessary - those are pieces of agent-specific state
[15:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: calling the interface "Agent" is wrong though
[15:19] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: perhaps AgentEntity
[15:20] <rogpeppe> but i don't like that either
[15:20] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, like LiferEntity and UAuthenticatorEntoty today, you mean ;p
[15:20] <fwereade_> god my typing is shot today
[15:20] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: you started to remind me of an ex-coworker who had notoriously bad typing :-)
[15:21] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: Lifer defines an object with a Life method
[15:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: Authenticator defines an object with authentication methods
[15:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: Agent would *not* define an object with agent methods
[15:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: but it would simply have some methods that happen to be used by agents
[15:22] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: and i don't really see why that interface should be defined in state itself.
[15:23] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: in general we don't predefine all possible interfaces in Go, but leave it up to the client code to do that.
[15:23] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, the distinction between "agent methods" and "methods that happen to be used by agents" does not seem to me to present an overwhelming practical difference
[15:24] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, ISTM that if we do that we end up with the funky downcasting we already have in apiserver
[15:24] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: they're totally different. an agent method would be something like MachineAgent.Run.
[15:24] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, "meh, everything we're calling here will have hat method, let's just use a Lifer"
[15:25] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, what we're getting kinda needs to be defined at the state level
[15:25] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, lots of little interfaces make sense where overlap is limited
[15:25] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, bigger interfaces also make sense where there's a lot of overlap, I think
[15:26] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, *even if* and given client of an Agent uses only one or two methods on it
[15:26] <fwereade_> s/and/any/
[15:27] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, anyway, I'm going to go and see if the plan comes off coherently anyway ;p
[15:27] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, cheers
[15:27] <dimitern> fwereade_, rogpeppe: https://codereview.appspot.com/12034043 - names package
[15:27] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: ok
[15:28] <dimitern> a lot of files are changed, but most changes are just renames
[15:29] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i think i'd put all the code into one file in names - i don't think the sizes are big enough to justify the separate files, and i'd find it easier to read like that.
[15:30] <dimitern> rogpeppe: i could do that, but I think separation is a good thing
[15:30] <rogpeppe> dimitern: why so?
[15:30] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i don't see that it helps anything really
[15:31] <rogpeppe> dimitern: other than meaning i need to flip back and forth to see what things are referring to
[15:31] <dimitern> rogpeppe: we could expand it later to include more stuff
[15:31] <rogpeppe> dimitern: we could split it into multiple files as appropriate if that happens
[15:31] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i find it much easier to see the whole lot on a single page
[15:31] <dimitern> rogpeppe: then check LP's diff :)
[15:32] <rogpeppe> dimitern: what about it?
[15:32] <dimitern> rogpeppe: but seriously, I'm not insiting on it staying like this - fwereade_ what do you think?
[15:33] <rogpeppe> dimitern: if nothing else, the related constants should go into the relevant files.
[15:33] <dimitern> rogpeppe: this makes more sense to me, ok
[15:33] <fwereade_> dimitern, rogpeppe: I rather liked the bite-size nature of those files
[15:34] <fwereade_> dimitern, rogpeppe: well, maybe, having all the constants in one place also has its benefits
[15:34] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: really?
[15:34] <fwereade_> dimitern, rogpeppe: I found it very easy to absorb that package as it was
[15:34] <dimitern> rogpeppe: once it lands, using godef to jump to each definition is trivial
[15:34] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i found myself flipping back and forth between constant and code
[15:35] <fwereade_> dimitern, rogpeppe: the conceptual dividing lines are clear, and the simplicity of each chunk is also pretty clear IMO
[15:35] <rogpeppe> fwereade_, dimitern: constants.go blurs the conceptual dividing line
[15:35] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, dimitern: the question is kinda what to do about the bits that are common
[15:36] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: what bits?
[15:37] <fwereade_> rogpeppe, dimitern: numbers, service names
[15:37] <dimitern> rogpeppe: having separate constants.go made sense when I did it, but as I said, I can move them into their relevent files instead
[15:37] <fwereade_> dimitern, rogpeppe: I would be fine with that though
[15:37] <dimitern> rogpeppe: not all of them are specific, some are common
[15:37] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: if we're staying in separate files (which i can live with) then service.go seems like the right place for service names
[15:38] <fwereade_> dimitern, rogpeppe: OTOH, unit.go will use it too, and one day perhaps relation.go
[15:38] <dimitern> rogpeppe: how about NumberSnippet and others, which are used more than once?
[15:38] <rogpeppe> although a whole file for a 3 line function does seem like overkill
[15:39] <fwereade_> dimitern, rogpeppe: having one file that describes in a very compact way all the data, and one file per entity that handles the tedious manipulation of each kind, seems to me like a reasonable balance
[15:39] <dimitern> rogpeppe: it's better so separate them early, rather than ending up with a monstrous module like state
[15:39] <fwereade_> dimitern, rogpeppe: but I'm happy calling dealer's choice on this, this is the very definition of a bikeshed
[15:39] <rogpeppe> i'd really like to see the whole lot in one place, but perhaps i'm old fashioned like that. i never programmed in java.
[15:40] <rogpeppe> dimitern: for NumberSnippet, i'd just choose an arbitrary place
[15:40] <dimitern> yeah, I forgot to say <bikeshed> earlier (until we reach an agreement </bikeshed> ) :)
[15:40] <rogpeppe> dimitern: nicer to have the rest of the constants nearer to where they're used
[15:41] <dimitern> rogpeppe: so compromise: having common bits in constants.go and entity-related stuff in their respective files?
[15:42] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i guess.
[15:44] <rogpeppe> dimitern: 115 lines doesn't seem like too much for a file though.

[15:45] <dimitern> rogpeppe: "divide and conquer" wasn't invented for java
[15:45] <dimitern> rogpeppe: it's generally a good practice for structuring code I think
[15:46]  * rogpeppe prefers each file to be worth its weight
[15:47] <dimitern> rogpeppe: how big a file should be at least?
[15:47] <dimitern> rogpeppe: is less than 50 lines the limit? or 20?
[15:47] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it totally depends
[15:47] <dimitern> rogpeppe: of course
[15:48] <rogpeppe> dimitern: in this case, i think everything would fit very neatly into one file, and the common patterns in the code would be more evident that way
[15:48] <dimitern> rogpeppe: and mixing responsibilities in the same place is a bad idea for the sake of having less files imho
[15:49] <rogpeppe> dimitern: all this code is doing a very similar thing. that for me is a good indicator that it belongs together.
[15:49] <dimitern> rogpeppe: not really, the packge has very well defined goal, that's why it looks like that
[15:49] <rogpeppe> dimitern: whatever
[15:50] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i didn't mean this to turn into a bikeshed argument
[15:50] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i've stated my preference
[15:50] <dimitern> rogpeppe: ok
[15:51] <dimitern> rogpeppe: let's agree to disagree on that one
[15:51] <dimitern> rogpeppe: :) no need to argue about minor stuff like this
[15:51] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yeah
[15:51] <rogpeppe> dimitern: one thought: instead of returning (string, error), i'm wondering if (string, bool) might be better
[15:52] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i dunno though
[15:52] <dimitern> rogpeppe: I was thinking about it, but we already have Is*(string) bool, and most of the code that handles externally received strings is using it
[15:53] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yeah
[15:53] <dimitern> rogpeppe: only a few places expect to pass a tag and get and id/name, which is wrong I think - the tag should be checked before
[15:55] <dimitern> rogpeppe: and moreover, not checking the format and getting an error allows you to "defer the responsibility" of deciding what to do to your caller
[15:56] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yeah - it's just the single error thing - when there's only one kind of expected error, i wonder if a bool is more useful
[15:57] <dimitern> rogpeppe: I could do that, but then in the few cases when there's a possible error, we have to define and return that error, so potentially it creates a bit of duplication
[15:57] <dimitern> rogpeppe: in the place it was called
[15:58] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yeah, that's true. i have mixed feelings.
[16:12] <mgz> can I have some help working out what my last batch of test failures on the bot relate to?
[16:15] <mgz> https://code.launchpad.net/~themue/juju-core/035-bootstrap-autosync/+merge/177119/comments/399419/+download
[16:15] <mgz> one is obvious...
[16:15] <mgz> I guess the others may be related?
[16:16] <TheMue> mgz: that branch is not yet approved
[16:16] <mgz> I've been approving it as a test
[16:16] <mgz> ..is it not approved as in I should be approving it?
[16:16] <mgz> I thought it was the one you wanted to land...
[16:17] <mgz> no harm done if so, but I guess I should have used a less-real branch
[16:17] <mgz> ^*shouldn't
[16:18] <TheMue> mgz: I have to land changes first;)
[16:19] <mgz> okay, I'll stop using that as a g-pig
[16:19] <TheMue> mgz: the BootstrapSuite now show a failure it hadn't before :(
[16:28] <mgz> I'm proposing a trivial branch I can test with instead
[16:28] <mgz> took too long to find a comment change, darn william and rog being native english and not screwing up grammar enough
[16:28] <rogpeppe> dimitern: reviewed
[16:29] <dimitern> rogpeppe: cheers
[16:29] <mgz> and bah, we've broken 1.0 compat again
[16:30]  * mgz adds the ppa
[16:33] <mgz> muh, and it doesn't pass go fmt
[16:33] <mgz> rogpeppe: how did you manage that?
[16:33] <rogpeppe> mgz: perhaps i ran a different gofmt on it
[16:34] <mgz> I guess that's my trivial change to land
[16:34] <rogpeppe> mgz: gofmt passes ok against trunk for me
[16:35] <mgz> compalins about trailing whitesapce on a comment for me
[16:36] <rogpeppe> mgz: what gofmt are we using as standard?
[16:36] <rogpeppe> mgz: i've been using go-1.0.2's gofmt for ages now
[16:36] <mgz> 1.0.2 is good, but not if we also break 1.0.2 compat >_<
[16:37] <rogpeppe> mgz: but go 1.1's does indeed complain about trunk
[16:37] <rogpeppe> mgz: i thought gwacl had already broken 1.0.2 compat
[16:38] <dimitern> fwereade: ping
[16:38] <rogpeppe> mgz: and yes, oops, i didn't test against 1.0.2 before submitting, and i missed a return statement
[16:38] <fwereade_> dimitern, pong
[16:38] <fwereade_> dimitern, blast, I should finish reviewing that
[16:38] <dimitern> fwereade: thanks :)
[16:38] <fwereade_> dimitern, quick question -- would dropping "Name" across the board lead to less stuttering? names.IsUnitName etc
[16:38] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: i've made a bunch of comments which you might want to take in before you continue
[16:39] <rogpeppe> fwereade_: that sounds good to me
[16:39] <mgz> I'm self-approving my trivial bot testing branch
[16:40] <dimitern> fwereade: makes sense
[16:52] <dimitern> TheMue: I can't see the changes you said you did?
[16:52] <mgz> okay, my one remaining test failure is commented by rogpeppe as bug 1163983
[16:52] <_mup_> Bug #1163983: some tests take an unnecessarily long time waiting for the poll interval <tech-debt> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1163983>
[16:52] <mgz> is there anything I can do to mitigate that on the bot?
[16:53] <dimitern> mgz: what go version is the bot using?
[16:53] <dimitern> mgz: I think that failure is intermittent
[16:53] <mgz> from the ppa, 1.1.1
[16:54] <mgz> bot has just hit it twice in a row...
[16:54]  * mgz reapproves to see how consistent that is
[16:55] <TheMue> dimitern: not yet pushed
[16:55] <dimitern> mgz: it seems the issue is [LOG] 19.20390 ERROR juju worker: fatal "deployer": remove /etc/init/jujud-machine-3:unit-tarmac-0.conf: permission denied
[16:55] <mgz> thanks
[16:56] <mgz> that seems like an isolation issue...
[16:58] <dimitern> mgz: seems likely, it the test should be creating /tmp/gocheck-*/etc/init or something
[16:58]  * dimitern bbiab
[16:59] <mgz> blame on that change is you? :P
[17:02] <mgz> ...there's nothing obviously wrong...
[17:08] <mgz> filed bug 1206195
[17:08] <_mup_> Bug #1206195: TestDyingMachine fails when unit agent is running on machine <juju-core:Confirmed> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206195>
[17:20] <dimitern> mgz: does it fail on your machine? on mine it doesn't
[17:20] <mgz> are you on a juj-deployed machine with a running unit-agent?
[17:20] <dimitern> well, obviously not :)
[17:21] <mgz> I'd not expect it to break for you then :)
[17:21] <dimitern> how does that matter?
[17:21] <mgz> because that's what the error is saying
[17:21] <mgz> the test is trying to talk to the bot's unit-agent, which obviously tells it to sod off, confusing the test
[17:22] <dimitern> how can this happen?
[17:22] <mgz> it really shouldn't :)
[17:23] <mgz> (I have no idea)
[17:23] <dimitern> is there a JUJU_* or ~/.juju/environments.yaml there?
[17:23] <mgz> in good news, the bot is now live again
[17:23] <mgz> dimitern: no.
[17:23] <dimitern> alive, like working properly?
[17:23] <mgz> yup.
[17:24] <dimitern> except for that issue above
[17:24] <mgz> I shall summarise to the list
[17:24] <mgz> that issue is gone for now, I skipped out the test
[17:24] <dimitern> great! thanks
[17:25] <dimitern> hmm, ok, i guess for the time being that's acceptable
[17:29] <TheMue> mgz: fantastic, thx
[17:33] <dimitern> fwereade: sorry to bug you again
[17:44] <rogpeppe1> dimitern, fwereade, anyone else interested: https://codereview.appspot.com/12038045
[17:45] <rogpeppe1> and i need another review of https://codereview.appspot.com/12025043/ please
[17:45] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: looking
[17:45] <rogpeppe1> that's me for the night
[17:45] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: ta!
[17:45] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: nn then
[17:48] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it has the ChangeAgentTools CL mixed in unfortunately, but it's separate enough that i think it's ok for the time being
[17:48] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: 'cos i'd prefer to avoid a prereq
[17:49] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: no worries
[17:49] <rogpeppe1> right, i really am off now, to pick some peas from the garden
[17:49] <rogpeppe1> g'night all
[18:00] <mgz> okay, I'm done for the day, email me if stuff blows up
[18:33] <Beret> can someone bump the priority of https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1188126 please?
[18:33] <_mup_> Bug #1188126: Juju unable to interact consistently with an openstack deployment where tenant has multiple networks configured <canonistack> <juju:New> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1188126>
[20:50] <sidnei> uhm, anyone around that can take a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1205112 ? it's blocking me :(
[20:50] <_mup_> Bug #1205112: panic while setting a config value <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1205112>
[21:00] <thumper> hi sidnei
[21:01] <thumper> sidnei: I don't suppose you have made it reproducable on the local provider?
[21:01]  * thumper woners which nick nate is
[21:02] <thumper> and I see he left 19 minutes ago
[21:02] <thumper> oh well
[21:11] <thumper> arosales: do you know how I can get access to the test MAAS?
[21:20] <sidnei> thumper: well, i deployed a new service and got it again
[21:20] <sidnei> thumper: i wonder if it's charm-specific
[21:20] <thumper> sidnei: could be a good bug for us to give to axw
[21:20] <thumper> he seems to be hammering through them
[21:21] <thumper> I'll pass on the info when he gets on
[21:21]  * thumper is attacking maas
[21:21] <sidnei> thumper: i suppose there's nothing like pdb for golang?
[21:21] <thumper> for a stack trace?
[21:21] <thumper> or to just stop
[21:21] <sidnei> thumper: no, to step through
[21:21] <thumper> depends how hard core you are
[21:22] <thumper> I have heard that there is a go part for gdb
[21:22] <thumper> not tried it though
[21:22] <sidnei> i've poked around gdb and pyframes once
[21:23] <sidnei> i could just add some prints around the comparison line i guess
[21:24] <thumper> when in the SFO go meetup, someone asked what people used for debugging
[21:24] <thumper> print statements was the common answer
[21:24] <thumper> :-(
[21:24] <sidnei> its choking on:
[21:24] <sidnei> 		if new == old {
[21:24] <sidnei> 			continue
[21:24] <sidnei> 		}
[21:24] <sidnei> in settings.go
[21:25] <thumper> it seems to me, having not looked at the code...
[21:25] <thumper> that it is failing to coerse the command line strings into int values
[21:26] <thumper> so comparing an int to a string representation of an int
[21:26] <thumper> are you changing an int value?
[21:26] <thumper> or numeric / bool
[21:26] <thumper> ie. non-string
[21:39] <sidnei> thumper: nope, it's a string
[21:40] <sidnei> one of the commands was: juju set u1-stream host_environment_name=dc -e local
[21:40] <sidnei> and the error is:
[21:40] <sidnei> panic: runtime error: comparing uncomparable type map[string]interface {}
[21:40] <sidnei> im suspecting it might be choking on a previously set value
[21:41] <sidnei> the service was deployed with deploy --config <config.yaml>
[21:42] <sidnei> there was no error during deploy (at least in the command line)
[21:42] <sidnei> it seems only half of the values from the --config config.yaml got set
[21:46] <andreas__> guys, I got a "panic" from juju-core, is this a low memory situation? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5926829/
[21:46] <thumper> sidnei: sounds very suspect
[21:47] <thumper> ahasenack: possibly
[21:47] <ahasenack> 500Mb RAM, no swap
[21:48] <ahasenack> 2013-07-29 21:48:21 ERROR juju uniter.go:352 worker/uniter: hook failed: fork/exec /var/lib/juju/agents/unit-nova-cloud-controller-0/charm/hooks/install: cannot allocate memory
[21:48] <ahasenack> hah
[21:57] <arosales> dpb1, looking at the bug 1205466
[21:57] <_mup_> Bug #1205466: deploy charm uses cached copy even when all services are removed <papercut> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1205466>
[21:59] <dpb1> arosales: yup, need something?
[22:01] <arosales> dpb1, nope sorry I was catching up on backscroll
[22:01] <arosales> looks like mramm already commented on this bug and discussed it here
[22:02] <dpb1> arosales: cool
[22:52] <wallyworld_> thumper: how's things?
[22:52] <thumper> otp
[22:52] <wallyworld_> ok
[23:12] <thumper> wallyworld_: hangout?
[23:12] <wallyworld_> sure
[23:13] <wallyworld_> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/f497381ca4d154890227b3b35a85a985b894b471?v=1374717932


[00:10] <xubuntu794> I have been trying to install xubuntu 12.10 through DVD on my latitude E5510
[00:10] <xubuntu794> On boot up I can only see that small humanoid and keyboard at center bottom of the screen
[00:10] <xubuntu794> Nothing else comes up after that.
[00:11] <xubuntu794> I really dont know how to debug on what's going wrong with the installation
[00:11] <xubuntu794> Can anybody here help on how I debug this?
[00:14] <Cheri703> when you see that, press a key
[00:14] <Cheri703> what happens if you do that?
[00:14] <Cheri703> (do it as soon as you see it)
[00:15] <xubuntu794> thanks
[00:16] <xubuntu794> it did work
[00:16] <Cheri703> yay :)
[00:16] <xubuntu794> :-)
[02:52] <chybby> do i need to do anything in the bios/uefi to install xubuntu?
[02:52] <holstein> !uefi
[02:53] <holstein> i would just try it.. nothing in ubuntu/xubuntu is preventing its self from installing on your machine
[02:54] <chybby> thanks guys =)
[02:57] <David-A> chybby: if you install from cd, you must set boot order to boot from cd first (often the default), if you install from usb-memory, you must set boot order to boot from that first (often not the default). there may be a button to select boot device directly without setting boot order
[02:58] <chybby> yeah I've done that, I just needed to turn off secure boot I think
[03:03] <nukke> i'm having problems installing dwb from source. i get, "config.mk:97: *** Cannot find gtk2-libs or gtk3-libs.  Stop."
[03:04] <nukke> i have both libgtk2-* and libgtk3-* up to date
[03:06] <David-A> nukke: (sorry for dumb question) including libgtk*-dev ?
[03:06] <nukke> yeah, have that, -bin, -common
[03:07] <nukke> however, i checked the config.mk file and it mentions webkitgtk-3.0. i'm downloading it right now. hopefully it fixes it
[03:08] <nukke> thw download seems excessively big, though. 125mb
[03:16] <nukke> ok it's working now. another question: what's the difference between gtk3 and gtk2? is gtk3 better?
[03:16] <MaunderingMoose> Hi! Would anyone mind taking a look at my AskUbuntu question about desktop panels in Xubuntu? http://askubuntu.com/questions/267124/is-there-a-way-to-hide-show-all-panels-at-once-in-xubuntu
[03:18] <holstein> !gtk
[03:18] <holstein> nukke: "better" is a matter of opinion.. 3 is newer
[03:20] <MaunderingMoose> Microsoft says newer is always better. Literally stopped selling Windows 7 four hours before I finally gave up and decided to buy it from their site. Said "fuck you" and now I'm trying to get Xubuntu to cover all my needs.
[03:21] <holstein> MaunderingMoose: careful.. this is an official support channel.. guidelines need be followed
[03:21] <MaunderingMoose> holstein: sorry
[03:22] <holstein> MaunderingMoose: no worries :)
[03:24] <MaunderingMoose> Is there a way to get multiple desktop panels to hide/show at once? Either with mouse-over or hotkey?
[03:26]  * holstein is looking into it
[03:35] <nukke> one last question: will there be problems if i add an archlinux repository to xubuntu?
[03:36] <holstein> nukke: we cant support that.. but i would expect issues
[03:37] <nukke> understood. thanks
[03:39] <David-A> nukke: arch uses different package manager. I don't think there is such a thing to "add" a repository that is using .deb in arch.
[03:39] <holstein> MaunderingMoose: you cant just click the "hide" in the panel dialog?
[03:41] <MaunderingMoose> holstein: I need all the panels to be hidden or restored at once.
[03:42] <MaunderingMoose> holstein: my AskUbuntu question explains the solution I'm looking for further: http://askubuntu.com/questions/267124/is-there-a-way-to-hide-show-all-panels-at-once-in-xubuntu
[03:42] <fetzy> Hi is it possible to install xubuntu if i already have ubuntu installed on my computer?
[03:42] <holstein> MaunderingMoose: they dont hide automatically?
[03:42] <Gumby> hi all.  I'm new to xubuntu.  I have created a panel and in it I have some panel items.  I would like those items to align to the right of the panel, is this possible?
[03:43] <MaunderingMoose> holstein: they do, but individually. I have six panels and it's a bummer to only have one become visible at a time when set on auto-hide.
[03:43] <MaunderingMoose> Gumby: use a seperator and set it to "extend"
[03:44] <holstein> MaunderingMoose: did you try http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=6220 ?
[03:44] <Gumby> MaunderingMoose: found that just as you msged that. Although, I believe it is "expand" and not "extend"
[03:44] <MaunderingMoose> Gumby: oh, sorry
[03:45] <Gumby> MaunderingMoose: right track though, thank you
[03:46] <MaunderingMoose> Gumby: :)
[03:46] <Gumby> brb
[03:46] <MaunderingMoose> holstein: I'll try that out real quick
[03:49] <MaunderingMoose> hostein: Is there a way to run a command for each panel at once with a hotkey?
[03:49] <holstein> MaunderingMoose: i was wondering if that command would just do all of them
[03:49] <holstein> MaunderingMoose: does it do anything?
[03:49] <MaunderingMoose> hostein: it worked, but it only indicates one panel at a time
[03:50] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: are you using the xconfig-query?
[03:51] <MaunderingMoose> David-A: yes
[03:52] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: I havn't tested bug guess panel-X is for one panel number X. does it work if you repeat command for all X ?
[03:52] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: then put the commands in a script, and call the script from the key binding
[03:54] <MaunderingMoose> David-A: I'll try that. Thanks.
[04:07] <MaunderingMoose> David-A: Is there a way to make an if/then thingy with this script that would allow me to use the same key combination as a toggle?
[04:09] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: yes, the thing is the script runs, does its thing and exits, the next time it runs it must remember what it did the previous time.
[04:11] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: one way to remember is saving a state in a little file. the file maybe containing only one word or one char.
[04:12] <MaunderingMoose> David-A: That would be easier/more possible than having it check to see if autohide is true or false before setting it to the opposite?
[04:12] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: or if you can query the config to find out its current state and then set the opposite state
[04:13] <MaunderingMoose> David-A: Which do you think would be easier for a complete noob to figure out how to do?
[04:13] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: quering the actual state is more robust (no out of sync states) and probably more efficient since no disk access needed.
[04:15] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: an alternative solution, let the script unhide, wait 2 seconds, then hide again. (no state needed, but maybe confusing behaviour if the key is pressed multiple times within 2 seconds)
[04:16] <MaunderingMoose> David-A: That's a good idea.
[04:18] <MaunderingMoose> David-A: What about a way to get all the panels to show when any one of them is moused-over?
[04:19] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: as for the previous question, yes, you can have if/then/(else) thingy in a script. and case-thingy. and a couple of loop thingies.
[04:19] <MaunderingMoose> David-A: "statement" I just learned it's called.
[04:21] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: I dont know if xfconf-query will report a temporary unhide state for a panel (hypotetically to test and then unhide the others)
[04:26] <MaunderingMoose> David-A: -T for toggle. Yay!
[04:26] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: xwininfo can report the current height of a panel. maybe some gui automation tool can be used to affect the panels.
[04:26] <David-A> MaunderingMoose: almost home :)
[11:01] <maestorm> Hello, I need help, I have notebook with Broadcom 4311 and I tried to connect, but it doesn't work so I tried to remove driver and install different driver, but it still didn't work so I removed
[11:03] <maestorm> Now I remover network-manager so I would like to install it but it doesn't even work via cabel
[11:03] <maestorm> I would like to download some installer for network manager
[11:04] <maestorm> which could work with my wlan
[11:04] <maestorm> any idea?
[11:05] <baizon> maestorm: you can try wicd
[11:06] <knome> maestorm, you will need the b43 drivers: http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/b43
[13:29] <john_rambo> How do I bring the dropbox menu on the right click menu ?
[13:38] <GridCube> john_rambo, faq 4 http://xubuntu.org/news/faq-1204-precise/
[13:39] <john_rambo> Thanks
[13:40] <GridCube> np
[14:11] <mrAlmond> Hi everyone
[14:12] <GridCube> !hi | mrAlmond
[14:12] <mrAlmond> Is there a way in xubuntu to start an application at startup and to make it re-launched again if it crashes?
[14:12] <GridCube> !cron | mrAlmond
[14:19] <mrAlmond> ubottu : are you a bot? :-)
[14:19] <mrAlmond> ubottu : great
[14:19] <mrAlmond> ubottu : your creator is intelligent :-)
[14:20] <Dr^Fets> depending on your app , you may run it as service?
[14:20] <Dr^Fets> there are different ways
[14:20] <mrAlmond> no it's a grephical app
[14:20] <Dr^Fets> alright
[14:21] <mrAlmond> I know that in lxde this can be done using the autostart file
[14:21] <mrAlmond> but I prefer xubuntu rather than lubuntu
[14:21] <mrAlmond> I know I can write a .desktop file
[14:22] <mrAlmond> but the app will not be restarted if it crashes
[14:22] <knome> mrAlmond, applications menu (-> settings) -> settings manager -> session and startup -> tab application autostart
[14:23] <Dr^Fets> yeah
[14:23] <Dr^Fets> but he needs to watch if it crashed
[14:23] <Dr^Fets> so a cron job would be fine
[14:24] <mrAlmond> I also want this app to start without showing me the desktop
[14:24] <mrAlmond> a sort of kiosk-like
[14:25] <mrAlmond> btw I wil try with cron
[14:25] <mrAlmond> I was asking just to know if there was already something similar available for xubuntu (like lxde does)
[14:25] <mrAlmond> tnx
[14:26] <Dr^Fets> I prefer xfce too :)
[14:29] <mrAlmond> :-)
[14:34] <GridCube> mrAlmond, you can have the application to start at login, but if you want to check if its working and restart it if fails you need something like a cron job, something that constantly checks if the application is running and launchesit back if its not, so a cron job its what you need
[14:34] <mrAlmond> ok tnx
[14:35] <mrAlmond> btw I've tried to configure my app like a "startup" application but just before it's launched I can see the xubuntu desktop so it's not ok for me
[14:35] <mrAlmond> I will try to start it in the rc scripts
[14:35] <GridCube> what application is it?
[14:35] <mrAlmond> an application of mine in qt
[14:35] <GridCube> you need to replace xfwm4?
[14:36] <mrAlmond> no I just need to hide it
[14:36] <mrAlmond> then when I want I need to return to it
[14:36] <GridCube> oh ok
[14:36] <GridCube> :)
[14:36] <mrAlmond> so the window manager is xfce and the DE is xfmw4?
[14:37] <mrAlmond> DE = Desktop Environment
[14:37] <GridCube> xfwm4 is the window manager, and it works in conbination with xfce4-panel to show the panels
[14:37] <mrAlmond> and what about xfce?
[14:37] <GridCube> xfwm4 will show the windows decorations and such
[14:37] <GridCube> xfce?
[14:38] <GridCube> xfce its the whole thing
[14:38] <GridCube> there is no package or application named xfce
[14:38] <mrAlmond> ah ok
[14:38] <mrAlmond> I'm a bit confused as there are a lot of window managers with similar names ;-P
[14:38] <GridCube> P: yes, a huge family
[14:39] <mrAlmond> all the *box, blackbox, fluxbox, openbox
[14:39] <mrAlmond> and all the others
[14:39] <GridCube> P: yes, never used those for real
[14:39] <mrAlmond> I did
[14:40] <mrAlmond> so many years ago
[14:40] <GridCube> P: i went from xp to knoppix, to xubuntu and never left
[14:40] <mrAlmond> I stopped using windows since xp too
[14:40] <mrAlmond> and then I passed to slackware
[14:41] <mrAlmond> and ubuntu
[14:41] <Dr^Fets> I quit on gnome and kde :)
[14:41] <mrAlmond> now these are only experiments :-)
[14:41] <GridCube> :D this is going ot can we move it there pls?
[14:41] <GridCube> !ot
[14:41] <mrAlmond> yes sorry
[14:41] <GridCube> :)
[14:42] <GridCube> no problem
[14:43] <Dr^Fets> sry too
[14:45] <GridCube> :D no problem, you can continue on #xubuntu-offtopic if you want :) we try to keep this place to people with problems, they might get scared if they see people talking about other things and wont want to interrupt
[14:45] <GridCube> :D we get many new-comers to the linuxverse here
[14:45] <Dr^Fets> alright
[14:53] <Dr^Fets> I had a weird font problem, something set my /Xft/Lcdfilter to lcdnone, I fixed it setting it to lcddefault
[14:53] <Dr^Fets> but I have no clue what app it did
[14:53] <Dr^Fets> maybe xrde but not sure
[14:55] <Dr^Fets> xrdb sorry
[14:57] <GridCube> no idea what an of those are
[15:04] <mrAlmond> just fyi
[15:04] <mrAlmond> I've modified xinitrc
[15:05] <mrAlmond> and I start my app just after xfce-session
[15:05] <mrAlmond> so the desktop is not shown
[15:06] <knome> mrAlmond, just note that you can most probably *get* into the desktop if you want though
[15:06] <mrAlmond> yes
[15:20] <MoL0ToV> i have a problem, i can hear sound but if i insert headphone i cannot hear in xubuntu... in win7 works... suggestions?
[15:20] <GridCube> MoL0ToV, check that when you plug the headphones the sound is going through them, see pavucontrol for that
[15:21] <MoL0ToV> GridCube, works
[15:22] <MoL0ToV> if i insert appears the headphone
[15:22] <MoL0ToV> in output tab
[15:22] <MoL0ToV> but i cannot hear nothing
[15:22] <GridCube> does the headphones work elsewhere, maybe they are broken?
[15:22] <Wizard> He mentioned they work fine.
[15:23] <GridCube> mmm
[15:23] <Wizard> MoL0ToV: Look through pavucontrol, maybe they are muted somewhere.
[15:23] <Dr^Fets> what soundcard?
[15:24] <MoL0ToV> intel hda
[15:24] <Dr^Fets> hmmm, I had to install alsa-tools to get mine working
[15:24] <MoL0ToV> 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family High Definition Audio Controller (rev 04)
[15:25] <MoL0ToV> i think that is a bug
[15:25] <genii-around> !intelhda
[15:25] <MoL0ToV> introduced with latest versions, before latest updates works...
[15:26] <genii-around> The above used to work but it's a bit old now
[15:34] <nelio> hello
[15:34] <nelio> i need help please
[15:34] <genii-around> !details | nelio
[15:36] <nelio> i have problems, because i forgot my password for keyring default
[15:36] <nelio> and i want to desactivate
[15:36] <nelio> xubunto version 4.1
[15:37] <knome> there is no version 4.1
[15:37] <nelio> 12.10
[15:37] <nelio> xfce 4.1
[15:37] <nelio> i think its this
[15:38] <nelio> i downloades from here
[15:38] <nelio> http://xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/
[15:38] <knome> in terminal, type "lsb_release -a" (without the quotes) to be sure
[15:38] <MoL0ToV> Wizard, no there is nothing muted and in windows works... is a bug
[15:38] <nelio> No LSB modules are available. Distributor ID:	Ubuntu Description:	Ubuntu 12.10 Release:	12.10 Codename:	quantal
[15:41] <nelio> i forget pass and know i need to type passwords, and, if possible i want desactivate this popup
[15:41] <nelio_> but i dont know why?
[15:44] <GridCube> nelio, how do you log in?
[15:45] <GridCube> the password its the same you need to log in
[15:46] <nelio_> no its not the same
[15:46] <GridCube> if you want to get rid of the keyring asking you all the time delete the files in the folder ~/.gnome2/keyringss
[15:46] <nelio_> i already try but dont wors
[15:46] <GridCube> ~/.gnome2/keyrings
[15:46] <GridCube> ok delete the keyring then
[15:46] <GridCube> :)
[15:47] <GridCube> that should fix it
[15:47] <nelio_> dont appear nothing in folder .gnome2
[15:47] <nelio_> no files
[15:47] <GridCube> nelio_, in your home folder
[15:47] <nelio_> yes
[15:47] <GridCube> /home/nelio/.gnome2
[15:47] <GridCube> there is a keyrings directory
[15:49] <nelio_> print screen
[15:49] <nelio_> http://i.imgur.com/YjbfbBh.png
[15:51] <GridCube> mmmm how very weird
[15:51] <nelio_> yes i know
[15:51] <GridCube> sorry don't know then, the password for the keyring should be the same from your login
[15:52] <nelio_> i put in log in, and its ok
[15:52] <nelio_> when i open chrome
[15:52] <nelio_> apear popup to put password
[15:52] <GridCube> mmm yes
[15:52] <GridCube> i know
[15:52] <nelio_> and tells me wrong pass
[15:53] <GridCube> that i dont understand, because if you are using keyrings then that folder should be there
[15:53] <knome> does chrome have a "keyring" like firefox does?
[15:53] <GridCube> no, it uses the systems one
[15:54]  * GridCube highly dislike chrome and all that comes with it
[15:54] <nelio_> no way to desactivate?
[15:56] <GridCube> nelio_, this should help you a little http://askubuntu.com/questions/31786/chrome-asks-for-password-to-unlock-keyring-on-startup
[15:57] <GridCube> but i dont think that xubuntu comes with the password changer by default, you might need to install it
[15:58] <Unit193> Seahorse may be able to help you there, I'd think.
[15:59] <Wizard> http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/stockartseahorse_4514.gif :>

[16:00] <nelio_> i dont have this menu: Passwords and Encryption Keys
[16:01] <GridCube> no, as i said, you wont
[16:01] <nelio_> how i install it
[16:01] <GridCube> nelio_, install seahorse like Unit193 recommended it, its not exactly the same but might help
[16:05] <nelio_> need to restart system
[17:20] <GermainZ> Hey guys. I can't move my mouse (actually, moving it scrolls the window). Is there a quick command to fix this, e.g. restart the mouse related receivers? I'd rather not restart as some things I've done can't be saved using keyboard combinations. Thanks :P
[17:21] <knome> GermainZ, alt+f should get you to the file menu usually, then you can navigate with arrows
[17:22] <GermainZ> That's what I'm doing.
[17:22] <GridCube> GermainZ, you can enable the mouse accesibility and use it with the numpad
[17:22] <GermainZ> GridCube, how would I do that?
[17:22] <GridCube> save what you have to save first
[17:22] <GermainZ> Can't save them all
[17:22] <GermainZ> Is a restart required?
[17:23] <GridCube> open the menu, alt-f1, go to settings > accesibility, tab once, move to left so you open the mouse tab, tab once agan and press the space bar
[17:23] <GridCube> vualá! you have a semifunctional mouse using the  numpad, number 5 is clic
[17:24] <GermainZ> Thanks :D
[17:25] <GridCube> once you save all your stuff you figure out why the mouse aint working
[17:25] <GermainZ> Probably a WINE issue, didn't release the mouse or something when I quit the app.
[17:31] <GermainZ> Oh well
[17:32] <GermainZ> Disabling/Enabling the touchpad in Mouse And Touchpad settings fixed it.
[17:32] <GermainZ> :)
[17:42] <sayres>  i installed xubuntu 12.4 .i installed tor with vidalia but when i start vidalia appear this error : Would you like to browse for the file 'control_auth_cookie' yourself? what do you think?
[17:44] <GermainZ> You could disable cookie authentication
[17:44] <GermainZ> But I think it's in the Tor directory
[17:44] <sayres> GermainZ: how?
[17:44] <GermainZ> (by default)
[17:45] <Xrman> how to make ristretto use scrollable zoom
[17:45] <Xrman> I don't want to scroll trought pictures, I want zoom, cause that's easier than button
[17:46] <GermainZ> sayres, no idea, just read the manual. Some Googling might help, otherwise might wanna ask in #tor at irc.oftc.net
[17:46] <GermainZ> Xrman, CTRL+Zoom?
[17:46] <Xrman> I need mouse zooming
[17:46] <sayres> ok
[17:46] <GermainZ> Xrman, CTRL+Mouse scroll
[17:47] <Xrman> without keyboard?
[17:47] <GermainZ> Mhmm
[17:47] <Xrman> maybe there are configs for this exact programm
[17:48] <Xrman> crtl is keyboard
[17:48] <GermainZ> Yes, I realize that.
[17:48] <GermainZ> No idea, sorry.
[17:48] <Xrman> I use only mouse when document need to be zoomed sometimes
[17:48] <Xrman> probably config
[17:48] <GermainZ> If you really want it, you can build from source
[17:48] <GermainZ> And modify it
[17:49] <Xrman> why not just modify it
[17:49] <Xrman> probably one line
[17:49] <Xrman> or two
[17:49] <GermainZ> .config/ristretto
[17:49] <GermainZ> accels.scm
[17:50] <GermainZ> (gtk_accel_path "<Actions>/RsttoWindow/zoom-in" "<Primary>plus") and (gtk_accel_path "<Actions>/RsttoWindow/zoom-out" "<Primary>minus")
[17:50] <GermainZ> You can probably change these
[17:50] <Xrman> ...
[17:50] <Xrman> I see
[17:50] <GermainZ> (I think only keyboard combination are accepted tho)
[17:51] <GermainZ> Actually - never mind. I'm dumb. Editing that file won't do anything.
[17:52] <Xrman> maybe it would, I liked editing things in openbox or awesome back then, but never edited settings for some image viewer
[17:52] <GridCube> Xrman, i think you will be happier using gThumb
[17:52] <Xrman> ristretto is good, just this one feature
[17:53] <GermainZ> Xrman, the documentation mention that scroll wheel should zoom by default. Not sure why it's not. Might wanna check this, tho: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=71052
[17:53] <GermainZ> (the link is dead but the point is, it shouldn't be too complicated changing the source and building)
[17:54] <Xrman> for Arch user who finds it good to configure computer 24/7
[17:55] <GermainZ> Building an app doesn't take 24/7 of your time.
[17:55] <GermainZ> It barely takes a few minutes
[17:55] <Xrman> they are probably working on new configuration for day, and sellecting things for weeks
[17:55] <GermainZ> (this should be obvious, but have you considered suggesting it?)
[17:56] <GermainZ> Or filing a bug report if you think it is one (considering the documentation says scrolling should zoom in/out)
[17:57] <Xrman> I'm too lazy for that, but you can do it lol
[17:57] <GermainZ> I'm not doing your job for you
[17:57] <Xrman> I have physics exam next day
[17:58] <GermainZ> Not an excuse for being lazy :)
[17:58] <knome> Xrman, if you don't file a bug, it's probably not going to be fixed then, or it happens later
[17:58] <Xrman> well physics are best excuse
[17:58] <GermainZ> If it really was that time consuming, perhaps you shouldn't be here in the first place.
[17:58] <Xrman> ok , where I can put it?
[17:58] <knome> !bug
[17:58] <GermainZ> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ristretto
[18:00] <Xrman> I'm not too good at keeping my acc in so many different place
[18:00] <Xrman> must reg lounchpad
[18:00] <knome> or you can file it in the xfce bugzilla, if you have an account there
[18:11] <Xrman> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ristretto/+bug/1154725
[18:11] <Xrman> I tried my best
[18:12] <Xrman> ok not, but still
[18:22] <Xrman> for what reason gthumb also does this
[18:22] <GermainZ> Does what?
[18:24] <Xrman> mouse zooming
[18:24] <Xrman> okay I'm install some alternatives
[18:26] <Xrman> eog works the best
[18:26] <Xrman> does the thing I wanted
[18:26] <GermainZ> Congratulations :)
[18:28] <Xrman> just because it's gnome, but maybe should be default
[19:10] <ubuntufobia> estan en el cielo
[19:10] <knome>  !es | ubuntufobia
[19:31] <xubuntu495> hey i got a question
[19:32] <baizon> yes?
[19:32] <xubuntu495> is it as easy to dualboot install xubuntu as ubuntu? or is something diffrent
[19:33] <GermainZ> Nothing different
[19:33] <xubuntu495> does it use grub2?
[19:33] <GermainZ> Xubuntu = non bloated Ubuntu, that uses XFCE
[19:33] <xubuntu495> okey
[19:33] <Dr_Fets> grub2
[19:33] <Dr_Fets> yes
[19:33] <xubuntu495> im about to remove my opensuse and install xubuntu
[19:35] <xubuntu495> should i use 12.04 or 12.10?
[19:35] <GermainZ> Read the changelog
[19:35] <Dr_Fets> 12.04 is a lts version
[19:35] <GermainZ> 12.04 is a LTS, which means it'll get updates for the next 3 years if I'm not mistaken
[19:35] <GermainZ> If you get 12.10 you're expected to upgrade in a few months.
[19:36] <xubuntu495> then im going to use 12.04
[19:36] <Dr_Fets> I am using 12.04 and 10.04
[19:39] <xubuntu495> since i got opensuse with grub2 is it just remove it and install xubuntu or do i need to remove grub2 or ?
[19:39] <Dr_Fets> the installer asks if you want to keep it
[19:39] <Dr_Fets> or use the whole disk
[19:40] <Dr_Fets> you can also partition yourself
[19:41] <xubuntu495> well i got windows 7 also so im going to remove the suse partition and use it for xubuntu
[19:41] <Dr_Fets> shouldn't be a problem
[19:41] <Dr_Fets> grub autodetects the other os's
[19:42] <GermainZ> I'm dual booting 7 and Xubuntu
[19:42] <GermainZ> Though I installed grub on Xubuntu's partition to avoid any problems
[19:42] <GermainZ> Windows doesn't really like anything else.
[19:42] <Dr_Fets> ah
[19:42] <Dr_Fets> right
[19:42] <Dr_Fets> I am using a separate disk for w7
[19:42] <GermainZ> That being said, you could try your luck.
[19:43] <GermainZ> Unrelated: any reasons to use Windows other than gaming?
[19:43] <GermainZ> A VM takes care of everything else.
[19:43] <xubuntu495> nop
[19:43] <xubuntu495> no reason to use windows
[19:43] <n-iCe> hello
[19:43] <xubuntu495> otherwise
[19:44] <n-iCe> Im on the live cd I have some folders on my windows harddrive that I would like to move to xubuntu and delete windows and install clean xubuntu
[19:44] <n-iCe> what can I do_
[19:44] <Unit193> n-iCe: You should see the Windows drive on the side of the file manager.
[19:44] <n-iCe> tried mounting the hard drive and moving the folder to the xubuntu desktop but says not enough space I think that-s because is using the usb live cd memory
[19:44] <n-iCe> Unit193: I do
[19:45] <Unit193> Exactly, do you have a flash drive or network drive?
[19:45] <Dr_Fets> you need some space somewhere
[19:45] <n-iCe> Unit193: cant I create just a partition?
[19:45] <n-iCe> and move all there
[19:45] <n-iCe> then I will resize later
[19:46] <n-iCe> the thing is I cannot find a tool to do it
[19:46] <Dr_Fets> gparted
[19:46] <Unit193> n-iCe: With gparted you can, but you then would have to be very careful in reinstall.
[19:46] <n-iCe> where is it
[19:46] <Dr_Fets> should be on the live cd too
[19:46] <Dr_Fets> system
[19:46] <GermainZ> System tools
[19:46] <Unit193> Settings Manager.
[19:46] <n-iCe> gigolo ibus taskmanager
[19:46] <n-iCe> is all I got
[19:46] <Dr_Fets> apt-get install gparted
[19:47] <Dr_Fets> or download the live cd
[19:47] <n-iCe> says I don-t have enough space
[19:47] <n-iCe> to install
[19:47] <n-iCe> Im on the live cd
[19:47] <Dr_Fets> I mean there is a gparted live cd
[19:47] <n-iCe> wait
[19:47] <n-iCe> Unit193: you were right on settings manager
[19:47] <n-iCe> thanks
[19:48] <xubuntu495> Why do you guys use linux ?
[19:48] <GermainZ> It's stabler than Windows, faster than Windows, doesn't hang if I start using it as soon as it boots like Windows, is more customizable than Windows.
[19:50] <xubuntu495> No virus :o
[19:50] <GermainZ> Well it's the whole logic behind root users
[19:50] <GermainZ> But then again I never had any viruses on Windows, so I'm not complaining about that.
[19:51] <Dr_Fets> are you sure?
[19:51] <xubuntu495> i feel that windows 8 ruin the whole thing with windows
[19:57] <n-iCe> xubuntu@xubuntu:~$ sudo mount /dev/sda2/ /mnt/nice mount: you must specify the filesystem type
[19:57] <n-iCe> how do I specify
[19:58] <Dr_Fets> -t fs
[19:58] <Dr_Fets> likely -t ntfs
[19:59] <Dr_Fets> but it should use automount
[19:59] <Dr_Fets> sudo fdisk -l
[19:59] <Dr_Fets> gives you a list
[19:59] <Dr_Fets> sudo fdisk -l /dev/sda
[20:00] <n-iCe> no output
[20:00] <Dr_Fets> this is bad
[20:00] <Dr_Fets> what does gparted show you
[20:01] <n-iCe> unknown type
[20:01] <n-iCe> how do I gave it a type
[20:01] <Dr_Fets> looks like there is no partition
[20:01] <Dr_Fets> I would recommend to use gparted
[20:01] <Dr_Fets> you can create a partition and also format it
[20:34] <john_rambo> How do I apply system wide proxy settings ?
[20:42] <Dr_Fets> hmm you could export some variables
[20:42] <Dr_Fets> but still, some apps will override it
[20:43] <Dr_Fets> you need to edit /etc/environment
[20:44] <Dr_Fets> http_proxy="http://user:password@proxy:port/"
[20:44] <Dr_Fets> https_proxy="https://user:password@proxy:port/"
[20:44] <Dr_Fets> ftp_proxy="ftp://user:password@proxy:port/"
[20:44] <Dr_Fets> socks_proxy="socks://user:password@proxy:port/"
[20:44] <Dr_Fets> and add that
[20:44] <john_rambo> Okay
[20:44] <Dr_Fets> and re login
[20:44] <Dr_Fets> but as I said, some apps will use their own setting
[20:49] <Dr_Fets> john_rambo : someone said the dconf-editor does it
[20:49] <Dr_Fets> it's in dconf-tools packace
[20:51] <Dr_Fets> ->system->proxy
[20:51] <john_rambo> trying that now....
[23:36] <xubuntu132> hello
[23:39] <ochosi> !hello
[23:39] <ochosi> !hi
[23:39] <Unit193> !hi