[16:03] <jono> Pendulum, all good for the Q+A today?
[16:12] <AlanBell> ooh, looking forward to that
[16:18] <Pendulum> jono: afaik yes :)
[16:18] <jono> Pendulum, :-)
[16:19] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: just reminder that we're on later :)
[16:21] <charlie-tca> Thanks, Pendulum
[16:24] <Pendulum> should be in just over an hour :)
[16:25] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: do you have time for a quick PM now?
[16:25] <Pendulum> or any point before we go on really (this is about a 1 min conversation so nothing heavy)
[16:26] <charlie-tca> I can try
[17:32] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: ready?
[17:33] <charlie-tca> sure
[21:13] <maco> woah that orca unstable email is like a bug report haiku!
[21:14] <maco> just move the "so" from the bottom line to the end of the middle line, and there you go
[21:14] <maco> oh wait, no, thatd be 5, 7, 6 ...remove teh "it"...
[21:15] <maco> im crap at this. first line is 1 too long too. bah
[21:15] <maco> but as a haiku:
[21:15] <maco> has anyone observed
[21:15] <maco> orca sometimes crashes so
[21:15] <maco> you must start again
[21:20] <phillw> Pendulum: sorry I missed the Q&A session, it fell just as my parents were getting the final packing and the 2 crazy Border collies into the vehicle to have a few days off :(
[21:21] <Pendulum> phillw: no worries
[21:23] <phillw> Pendulum: if you have a couple of minutes for a PM? just a little snippet of news, which is positve :)
[21:24] <charlie-tca> maco: yes, I have seen that happen, along with freezes that have to be force killed
[23:23] <phillw> jono: do you have a spare couple of minutes? I promise, dead quick!
[23:23] <jono> phillw, sure
[23:27] <phillw> jono: you have a PM


[00:01] <zoredache> how does quagga compare to bird?
[00:06] <Gemini420> hi there, would anyone here be able to assit with a Postfix + Dovecot + SMTP AUTH question ... ?
[00:07] <Gemini420> i am switching from Qmail to Postfix, and having issues with setting up SMTP AUTH to use the same user/passwd files as POP3/IMAP
[00:08] <Gemini420> POP3/IMAP work fine ...
[00:11] <Gemini420> ehlo?
[00:42] <AtomicSpark> So I *think* I've figured out whats wrong with my ubuntu 8.10 server.
[00:42] <AtomicSpark> Its seeing the raid 5 + online spare wrong. Its saying its 320 GB (all disks) but since I have an online spare, i really only should be getting ~298.
[00:42] <AtomicSpark> So its creating the partition too large. If thats possible.
[00:43] <AtomicSpark> Might be a hardware issue too.
[00:43] <AtomicSpark> To test this, I'm going to use a RAID 10 (1 + 0) instead. Size is not an issue and this should give me better performance/reliablity
[00:52] <AtomicSpark> Yes. Its showing my size correctly now. 3x80=240. I hope this works.   But is there a way to enable the server to read that?
[02:32] <Appl3Kork> cause it says on the website FAIL
[02:32] <Appl3Kork> FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this).
[02:32] <Appl3Kork> that's what it says
[03:03] <mynous> would disk speed be a reason for vsftpd to effect rtorrent upload speeds even if both are limited to 1/4 the available bandwidth?
[03:04] <mynous> e.g. downloading viz vsftpd causes rtorrent uploads on the same server drop to almost nil
[04:36] <benlake> anyone running IET?
[08:03] <framstag> huhu
[08:04] <framstag> I want to add a new server application to ubuntu - where should I start?
[08:04] <framstag> (adding to the repositories)
[08:05] <_ruben> getting it into debian is probably best .. check debian's new maintainer guide .. in what stage is that application? source tarball? .deb package?
[08:06] <framstag> I have no debian system running
[08:06] <framstag> stage: final release february this year
[08:07] <framstag> source code and documentation has been already publisjed:
[08:07] <framstag> http://fex.rus.uni-stuttgart.de/
[08:08] <framstag> but no distribution specific package
[08:08] <framstag> for I am using ubuntu myself, I thought it would be best to start with it
[08:08] <kraut> moin
[08:17] <_ruben> framstag: well .. making a proper .deb package for it will be the next step i think .. you should join #ubuntu-motu, those are the packaging gurus and know the steps to take to get your package included in either debian or ubuntu or both
[08:17] <framstag> ahh... ok, I see,  wrong channel :-)
[08:17] <dataflow> =]
[08:19] <framstag> thanks for the hint
[08:23] <fsbano> hi
[08:23] <fsbano> good morning for all
[08:23] <dataflow> morning
[08:24] <dataflow> whats on the morning agenda?
[08:24] <fsbano> isn't running ubuntu-server 8.10 with dom0?
[08:24] <fsbano> working..
[08:25] <fsbano> Xen
[08:39] <soren> fsbano: The Ubuntu server kernel in 2.6.27 can function as a Xen domU. Not dom0.
[08:39] <soren> for that, you need the Xen kernel image.
[08:40] <soren> ....which I can't seem to find anymore.
[08:40]  * soren wonders..
[08:41] <soren> Darn it. It appears to have been NBS'ed.
[08:41] <fsbano> soren : okay
[08:42] <soren> You can grab it from Hardy, though, and install it in Intrepid.
[08:42] <fsbano> do you know kvm?
[08:42] <soren> fsbano: Yes.
[08:43] <soren> fsbano: If you want the Xen kernel from Hardy: http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/linux-image-2.6.24-21-xen
[08:44] <fsbano> i will go get it
[09:11] <Abracadabr4> hi /all
[10:59] <KingOfDos> I've got this problem with a ubuntu server, after updating from 8.04 to 8.10 -> http://dev.kingofdos.com/tmp/ubuntu810-serverproblem.jpg
[10:59] <KingOfDos> The device just won't boot further then that point
[11:01] <KingOfDos> When i press ctrl+alt+del there, after about 30 seconds the console will show up. When I login there I can see that i'm missing "at least" the /home and the /var/log paths.
[11:02] <KingOfDos> When I start the recovery mode I can mount some disks, and do other stuff. But I've got no idea where to start searching on that server
[11:02] <incidence> KingOfDos, Is it AMD64?
[11:02] <incidence> I mean, x86_64, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/util-linux/+bug/8414
[11:03] <soren> I doubt that's the big problem here.
[11:04] <soren> KingOfDos: It's booting 2.6.27-7-server?
[11:04] <KingOfDos> Nope. It's an old server. HP Procurve DL380 (G2 i beleave), with Intel P3 (i beleave 1300mhz) as CPU
[11:06] <KingOfDos> soren: how can i check what kernel it's booting? (yes i'm not "that" good with linux, most problems i can solve myself, but this is a little hard for me ;) )
[11:06] <Deeps> uname -r
[11:08] <KingOfDos> with the recoverymode @ livecd, after mounting the /dev/cciiss/c0d0p1 device (the /boot) i see that there is the 2.6.27-7-server kernel.
[11:08] <soren> KingOfDos: Reboot it and watch :)
[11:08] <soren> KingOfDos: Does it use lilo or grub?
[11:10] <KingOfDos> indeed, the 2.6.27-7-server is used as kernel when booting the system
[11:11] <KingOfDos> it's a almost default server (so it uses grub, no lilo). the server is used for OpenVPN and Zabbix
[11:17] <KingOfDos> when i'll boot the 2.6.24-16-server it's working normal, as i'm used to be.
[11:25] <soren> KingOfDos: For now, just use that, then. I'd like it if you could open a but about your problem, though.
[11:37] <KingOfDos> soren: what do you think is good to do about the bug? post the picture @ launchpad, including that it's happening with the 2.6.27-7-server kernel and not on the 2.6.24-16-server?
[11:37] <soren> KingOfDos: that's a good start.
[11:37] <soren> KingOfDos: Also, attach the output of "lspci -vnn".
[11:38] <KingOfDos> or what do you suggest? cause i can't find any "logs" of that bug at my server (just a logical something. because the /var/log is not mounted with the 2.6.27-7-server kernel)
[11:38] <KingOfDos> ok
[11:38] <KingOfDos> you've got other suggestions of things that i can post?
[11:40] <soren> KingOfDos: Not off the top of my head, no.
[11:44] <KingOfDos> Ok, i will add a case in a few hour (don't know any passwords from my head, needs to be generated with some secure tool, at home).
[11:45] <KingOfDos> Thanks for your support so far :)
[11:52] <byte_slave> hello everyone!
[11:53] <byte_slave> how can  i disable the "automatic upgrades" of my ubuntu server box? i ask it bc some time ago when using v8.04 and without doing nothing the box has upgraded itself from 8.04 version to the available 8.10 intrepid ibex RC version available at that date
[12:04] <soren> a) Ubuntu server has no automatic upgrade
[12:04] <soren> b) There's no such thing as automatic upgrades from 8.04 to 8.10, not even on the desktop.
[12:05] <soren> You need to take very explicit steps to perform that upgrade.
[12:15] <_ruben> automated upgrade .. nasty
[12:15] <soren> Does not exist.
[12:16] <soren> byte_slave: You probably put intrepid in your sources.list and did and apt-get upgrade at some point.
[12:16] <soren> byte_slave: *Nothing* in the Ubuntu repository will automatically do a dist-upgrade from Hardy to Intrepid. Even update-manager needs special options to even *offer* the option to upgrade  (since Hardy is an LTS).
[12:17] <byte_slave> hummm.... maybe i put that in the sources.list
[12:17] <byte_slave> because i remember was a very strange behaviour and i had to format the box and reinstall all again
[12:17] <_ruben> and upgrading to an rc usualy requires even more effort .. unless the edit-sources.list-approach is taken .. which is nasty in itself
[12:18] <_ruben> byte_slave: so much for "doing nothing" then ;)
[12:19] <byte_slave> :(
[12:20] <byte_slave> thanks for the explanation guys!
[13:42] <nodebo1> under gentoo i used to do make menuconfig and select modules to be builtin or whatever myself... does ubuntu do anything similiar during apt-get
[13:51] <nodeboy_999> the problem is i have two kernels (same version) on the same hardware under 2 different version of ubuntu 8.04 nothing from lsmod but a different startup sequence 1 starts the other dosen't both appear to be using different modules
[14:06] <nodeboy_999> does apt-get <linux-kernel> provide a static or dynamic kernel image for any given kernel?
[16:15] <benlake> anyone use IET?
[16:20] <nxvl> IET?
[16:21] <benlake> iscsi enterprise target
[16:40] <josh_____> how do i use samba?
[16:48] <josh_____> how do i use samba?
[16:48] <domas> by using it!
[16:50] <josh_____> newbie
[16:50] <josh_____> i just installed it using tasksel
[16:54] <josh_____> ok, maybe this is phrased better.  How do i set samba up?
[16:54] <benlake> http://us1.samba.org/samba/docs/using_samba/toc.html
[16:56] <josh_____> i just want to share files between my mac and ubuntu
[16:56] <benlake> did you even look at that link?
[16:57] <benlake> are you running the server edition?
[16:58] <josh_____> yes,  i found a similar link, before i posted here. the one you posted is much easier to read, but still overwelling
[16:58] <josh_____> no, basic ubuntu
[16:58] <benlake> why are you asking this in server?
[16:58] <benlake> the normal desktop has GUIs for sharing your stuff
[16:59] <josh_____> someone told me that i need samba to share file, and lamp to run my website
[17:00] <benlake> if you are running ubuntu desktop, samba is in the background
[17:00] <benlake> just use the GUI to setup shares
[17:00] <yann2> josh_____ > try to read some documentations first, and then come back with specific questions :)
[17:00] <josh_____> ok,  how do i do that?
[17:01] <yann2> don't expect someone to make a 3 hours speech to explain you step by step how to setup a complete web server ;)
[17:01] <benlake> dude if you can't click around on an interface and discover that or google "file sharing ubuntu" then this is really the wrong place to ask
[17:02] <benlake> we are like jesus, you have to do half the work
[17:02] <benlake> the difference being we then actually help.
[17:03] <josh_____> i have been reading on it.  I can only see 3/4ths of my screen because its hooked up to my tv because my monitor has not came in yet
[17:22] <nxvl> mathiaz: where was the list of merges for the ubuntu-server team?
[17:22] <mathiaz> nxvl: I haven't created a list yet
[17:22] <mathiaz> nxvl: for now, merges.ubuntu.com is the best place to look at :)
[17:22] <nxvl> ok
[17:22] <nxvl> :D
[17:22] <nxvl> but had a tool that created such a list
[17:23] <mathiaz> nxvl: https://code.launchpad.net/~mathiaz/+junk/get-merges
[17:23] <nxvl> that one
[17:23] <nxvl> \o/
[17:24] <nxvl> thank you
[17:26] <zul> heh apache2 was taken care of this morning
[17:47] <rhalff> hi
[17:47] <rhalff> ug in the documentation: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/jeos-and-vmbuilder.html#jeos-bridging
[17:47] <rhalff> source network='br0' should be source bridge='br0'
[17:49] <unit3> Hey all. Just upgraded to intrepid, and apparently do-release-upgrade thought I needed consolekit and dbus, which are now spamming my logs.
[17:49] <unit3> Is there any reason to keep those?
[17:53] <ScottK> unit3: If you remove them, make sure you see if the system wants to remove anything else.  If not, it's probably fine.
[17:53] <unit3> Ok, I just wasn't sure if there was server daemons or hardware detection now doing stuff with dbus.
[17:54] <unit3> If there isn't... then I'm not really sure why the upgrader thinks a server install needs those packages.
[17:54] <benlake> unit3: my upgrade specifically removed consolekit, odd
[17:54] <unit3> Weird.
[17:54] <unit3> also, is anyone else getting a bunch of apparmor spam about clamd?
[17:55] <ScottK> unit3: Are you using a TCP socket for it?
[17:55] <unit3> lemme check
[17:55] <unit3> yes.
[17:55] <unit3> but that's not what it's complaining about.
[17:56] <unit3> it's complaining about clamd trying to get read access to files under /etc/resolvconf
[17:56] <unit3> which it isn't allowed to do in the default apparmor profile.
[17:56] <ScottK> Yes.  That's a different issue.
[17:56] <ScottK> There's an apparmor update in intrepid-proposed that fixes that.
[17:56] <unit3> Oh ok. I'll grab that. :)
[17:59] <ScottK> unit3: After you install it, please comment in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apparmor/+bug/286080 about if it fixes your problem or not.
[17:59] <unit3> ok
[18:00] <unit3> hrm... gulus mirror doesn't have it in proposed. I s'pose I can use prevu to build it from launchpad?
[18:00] <ScottK> Let me get you a link.
[18:00] <unit3> sure.
[18:00] <unit3> I'm on amd64.
[18:01] <ScottK> unit3: It was just uploaded, so it's not built yet.
[18:01] <ScottK> unit3: If you look at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/apparmor/2.3+1289-0ubuntu4.1 once amd64 says done or accepted you can click on the link and it'll lead you to the .deb
[18:01] <ScottK> IIRC it's two clicks from there.
[18:02] <unit3> great, thanks.
[18:07] <BUGabundo> hi
[18:08] <BUGabundo> does ubuntu handle soft raid 10 ?
[18:10] <benlake> the short answer is yes
[18:10] <BUGabundo> thanks
[18:11] <benlake> man md
[18:11] <BUGabundo> benlake: long answer?
[18:11] <BUGabundo> some wiki link?
[18:11] <benlake> BUGabundo: since you are in the server channel I'll assume you don't need GUIs
[18:12] <BUGabundo> its not for me
[18:12] <BUGabundo> a collegue asked me
[18:12] <BUGabundo> I have no special needs for GUI, don't worry
[18:12] <BUGabundo> $ man md
[18:12] <BUGabundo> No manual entry for md
[18:12] <BUGabundo> LOLOL
[18:12] <BUGabundo> MAN won't help much there benlake
[18:13] <unit3> mdadm actually is what you want to look at.
[18:13] <benlake> you obviously did that on desktop
[18:13] <unit3> And also the wikipedia on Linux's raid10 implementation.
[18:13] <BUGabundo> eheh
[18:13] <benlake> unit3: there is no actually about that statement
[18:14] <unit3> benlake: well, for someone who doesn't already know the md system inside and out, I'd recommend looking at mdadm before md.
[18:14] <benlake> man md will lead you to mdadm after explaining what is supported and how
[18:14] <unit3> Ok, fair enough. :)
[18:14] <benlake> I would disagree
[18:14] <BUGabundo> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/intrepid/en/man4/md.html
[18:14] <benlake> I don't want to give people programs until they have an idea of what they are trying to do with them
[18:14] <BUGabundo> LOL
[18:15] <unit3> benlake: true. :)
[18:15] <BUGabundo> I'll fw him this info
[18:15] <BUGabundo> any more tips?
[18:15] <benlake> BUGabundo: something tells me there are glazed eyes in their future
[18:15] <BUGabundo> why?
[18:16] <unit3> BUGabundo: I'd still suggest the wikipedia page about nonstandard raid levels, as it explains the linux raid10 options in more detail (or at least more visual form): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_RAID_levels#Linux_MD_RAID_10
[18:16] <benlake> well you're colleague couldn't googled "ubuntu software raid" to get an idea of what the situation is
[18:17] <benlake> unit3: you can build the 10 yourself too :)
[18:17] <benlake> unit3: not sure of the pros and cons of that though
[18:17] <unit3> benlake: yeah, you can do a traditional stack of 1+0 or 0+1...
[18:17] <unit3> generally I find it's all cons and no pros, but that's just IMO. ;)
[18:50] <pjman80> Hello All - I'm having a very odd network problem and I'm looking for some advice.
[18:50] <pjman80> I have a server (running Ubuntu 8.04 Server) on an Internet facing DMZ. At "random" times the server becomes unreachable from our LAN and the Internet. However the server is reachable from other servers on this DMZ. The server is reachable from the LAN and Internet if I generate traffic between the problem server and another machine on the DMZ. There are no typos in the network settings (SubnetMask, DefaultGateway, etc.). Our fir
[18:51] <pjman80> "The server is sending the reset packet, meaning that it does not want to accept any connection at that time for some reason. The firewall is just forwarding those back to the client."
[18:51] <pjman80> I've viewed all the logs in /var/log/ and there is nothing worthwhile showing up. I do see some lines in /var/log/messages that have "-- MARK --" but I do not know what these indicate.
[18:51] <pjman80> I've tried listening for all incoming connections from the LAN source IP with tcpdump. tcpdump isn't showing any of these incoming attempts while we are experiencing the problem.
[18:51] <pjman80> Anyone have ideas?
[18:53] <zoredache> I can tell you the '-- mark --' is just a way for you to know that your syslog server hasn't crashed
[18:54] <pjman80> good to know :-)
[18:54] <zoopster> pjman80: good one
[18:56] <zoopster> pjman80 - let me make sure I am clear - if you even ping from the "problem server" to another ip address the connection "wakes up"?
[18:56] <zoredache> pjman80: what services are you running?
[18:57] <bn43> Hi I need to understand raid 10 on a dell 2950 III
[18:57] <pjman80> during the time I can't reach the server from our internal LAN I'm able to ping the server from other servers on the DMZ. After I do this, usually I'm then able to reach it again from the LAN.
[18:57] <pjman80> services = ssh server, tomcat
[18:58] <bn43> the server has got an internal PERC raid 6/i controller card
[18:58] <bn43> has anyone worked with this server?
[18:58] <pjman80> and mysql
[18:59] <pjman80> ntp as well. I think that's it. So it's ssh server, tomcat, mysql and ntp
[18:59] <zoredache> bn43: perhaps you should tell us what you don't understand
[19:00] <zoredache> pjman80: I would almost be tempted to suggest that for some reason something isn't responding to ARP requests...
[19:00] <bn43> um ok - I have been using software raid before with LVM
[19:00] <unit3> ScottK: just installed that new apparmor package, and got a bunch more spam about clamd.
[19:00] <bn43> what I understand now is that the raid card will control the raid
[19:00] <unit3> So it doesn't appear to have fixed my issue.
[19:01] <unit3> I'll update the bug on launchpad.
[19:01] <bn43> so ubuntu will see the disks in raid format upon installation right?
[19:01] <ScottK> unit3: Is it tied to resolvconf or something else
[19:01] <zoredache> bn43: no, ubuntu will just see a single disk
[19:01] <unit3> ScottK: it's the same resolvconf error I was seeing before.
[19:01] <ScottK> If it's about clamd, I think we have a different bug on that already.
[19:01] <bn43> yeah sorry thats what I meant!
[19:01] <ScottK> jdstrand: ^^^
[19:02] <ScottK> unit3: I'd suggest discuss it with jdstrand as he prepared that update.
[19:02] <unit3> ok.
[19:02] <bn43> so I was reading in wikipedia that raid10 is not advised but I've been told to set it up
[19:02] <unit3> bn43: where does it say it's not advised? I don't know of any issues with it.
[19:02] <unit3> It's worked rather well for me for years now. :)
[19:02] <jdstrand> unit3: please post your kern.log in the bug and ping me
[19:03] <zoredache> pjman80: when the failure happens, I would be tempted to look at the arp tables on system, and your firewall perhaps.
[19:03] <bn43> apparently if one disk fails and is not replaced and another disk goes, the whole array goes
[19:03] <unit3> jdstrand: ok, 286080?
[19:03] <bn43> everything is lost
[19:03] <unit3> bn43: well yes... if you have two disks fail, and only two levels of redundancy then yes, you'll lose data.
[19:03] <pjman80> I'm not familiar with arp. Any idea how I would look at their tables?
[19:03] <zoredache> bn43: if one disk fails your fine, if a second disk fails everything is lost
[19:03] <unit3> That falls under "expected behaviour". ;)
[19:04] <jdstrand> unit3: that would be fine
[19:04] <zoredache> bn43: but the same is true for raid5, raid1, and so on
[19:04] <unit3> bn43: and that's only if you use near/far=2. If you've got more disks, you can do near=3, or near=4, to ensure more data copies.
[19:04] <unit3> So it's up to you, really.
[19:04] <bn43> ok - I'm also trying to understand the disk setup too
[19:04] <zoredache> bn43: unless you have host-spares which will automatically take over
[19:04]  * ScottK wants a system that will preserve my data if all the disks fail and no performance penalty.
[19:05] <bn43> I'm still understanding raid so pls bear with me
[19:05] <zoopster> pjman80: and to add to zoredache...look at the ethx stats - this could be a cable issue or port issue
[19:05] <bn43> so on this raid card, can I setup hot-spares?
[19:06] <zoredache> pjman80: sudo arp -a
[19:06] <bn43> I'm assuming the raid card controls hot-spares
[19:06] <zoredache> bn43: I am not certain with a perc6, I think I have perc5s...
[19:07] <pjman80> zoopster: zoredache: Thanks - I'll look into that
[19:07] <bn43> perc5s's allow for that?
[19:07] <zoredache> bn43: the system probably came with a set of docs that is somewhat ok...
[19:07] <bn43> ok I'll look into that
[19:08] <zoredache> bn43: I don't think so...  I have never wanted a hot-spare on a server...
[19:08] <bn43> zoredache: have the server for some time so just want to learn how to do it :-)
[19:09] <bn43> Is there a howto for raid10 on ubuntu?
[19:09] <zoredache> I figure after the first dirve fails, I will replace it as soon as possible, and that I will have good backups, so I can restore if the second disk fails
[19:09] <unit3> bn43: there's docs, but the mostly concern software raid, which won't apply if you're using a hardware raid controller.
[19:09] <bn43> and how is the latest release (8.10) for a working environment?
[19:10] <unit3> So far I like it on my server, just tracking down some minor apparmor issues.
[19:10] <Deeps> bn43: it's just been released. same logic applies to ubuntu releases as does to all major software releases
[19:11] <unit3> aww.... dbus/consolekit are deps for avahi... so I've got to give up service discovery if I want consolekit to shut up in my logs. :(
[19:11] <bn43> Deeps: so what do you guys use? - version?
[19:11] <unit3> oh nice, and now console-kit-daemon is just segfaulting in my logs rather than complaining about org.freedesktop.
[19:12] <Deeps> bn43: depends on the importance of the server
[19:12] <zoredache> bn43: I suspect I would stick to an LTS for servers, unless you really needed something recent.  But that is mostly because I don't like running updates ever 6 months.
[19:12] <Deeps> debian and 8.04 are what i use
[19:12] <jdstrand> unit3: what is the output of 'dpkg -l|grep apparmor'
[19:12] <jdstrand> ?
[19:13] <bn43> Deeps: File Servers mostly
[19:13] <bn43> Deeps: hehe - Important!
[19:14] <unit3> Yeah, you might want to stick with LTS (8.04) unless you really need something in the new release...
[19:14] <unit3> and even then, prevu is your friend. ;)
[19:18] <bn43> ok now about the disks themselves
[19:19] <bn43> If I wanted a capacity of 1.5TB on a server, how many disks do I need of what capacity for Raid10?
[19:19] <unit3> Double.
[19:19] <unit3> So you need 3TB of raw space.
[19:20] <unit3> four 1TB disks will do fine. ;)
[19:21] <bn43> wikipedia says theoretically raid10 will work with 2 disks - I'm confused about that given that the 4 is what I worked out too
[19:21] <bn43> can someone explain?
[19:21] <zoredache> bn43: raid10 on 2 disks is effectively a RAID1
[19:21] <unit3> Yeah, there's just not much point to it.
[19:21] <Deeps> or RAID0
[19:22] <bn43> yeah so how can it be raid10 then?
[19:22] <Deeps> unless i'm confusing RAID10 and RAID01 again
[19:22] <Deeps> which is quite likely, ignore me
[19:22] <zoredache> bn43: perhaps they partitioned both of the drives equally, and then did raid10 accross the 4 partitions
[19:22] <bn43> ahhhh!
[19:23] <bn43> ok that makes sense
[19:23] <unit3> it wouldn't really be raid10 in logical terms, but the software/hardware would think it was.
[19:23] <zoredache> bn43: it would be a silly thing to do I suspect.  Very little practical use for it
[19:23] <bn43> thats why 'theoretical' i suppose
[19:30] <bn43> something else I need to understand about hardware raid - since the OS sees one disk, the boot sector is installed across the array right?? so any one disk can fail and the sytem will still boot?
[19:31] <unit3> In theory, yes.
[19:31] <unit3> Since the boot block will exist on 2 disks.
[19:32] <bn43> ?? - please explain that - why 2 disks?
[19:33] <zoredache> bn43: I think he was assuming a raid10. The systems ability to boot would depend on the raid.
[19:33] <bn43> I'm looking at raid10 here
[19:33] <zoredache> on the *type of* raid.
[19:33] <unit3> Oh yeah, sorry. Thought we were still talking about raid10.
[19:33] <unit3> In raid 10, the boot block would exist on the first disk, but also the disk that is a mirror of that one.
[19:34] <unit3> and the controller would know that is logical block 0.
[19:34] <unit3> so if the boot disk died, it could still retrieve the boot block from the mirror disk.
[19:36] <bn43> ok so if any one disk dies, the system will still boot as if nothing happened
[19:37] <zoredache> aside from the warning you'll get on the boot screen that you have a degraded array
[19:38] <bn43> on my software raid1 systems, I had to manually install grub on the second disk to have that work
[19:41] <unit3> bn43: that depends on how you've got software raid setup.
[19:41] <unit3> If you set it up across the entire device, then you shouldn't have to.
[19:42] <unit3> But if you set it up on individual partitions, then yeah, you'll need to manually install the bootloader on both disks, because the bootblock isn't "inside" the raid.
[19:42] <unit3> with a hardware raid controller, it always uses the full disks, so it shouldn't be a problem.
[19:43] <KingOfDos> Someone here a suggestion for a Hauppauge PVR-150 tv card? I just can't get any audio. Already searching/testing things for a couple of days, but it just wont work.
[19:43] <KingOfDos> There is no /dev/radio* or /dev/audio*
[19:44] <unit3> KingOfDos: that's because the hauppauge encodes to mpeg2 in realtime, you generally pull the audio out of the mpeg2 stream you get from the device.
[19:44] <unit3> IIRC.
[19:44] <unit3> I haven't worked with one in a while, so how it's setup may have changed.
[19:44] <bn43> great - thanks to all for explaining this to me!
[19:44] <unit3> bn43: no prob.
[19:45] <KingOfDos> Ah on that way. So it will be possable to grab the audio from the stream somehow.
[19:45] <KingOfDos> Nice suggestion, i'll search for something usefull.
[19:45] <unit3> KingOfDos: yeah, you can pipe it through mplayer or something to demux it.
[19:45] <unit3> look on the mythtv wiki, it has lots of info about those cards.
[19:50] <unit3> KingOfDos: the ivtv wiki probably also has useful info: http://ivtvdriver.org/index.php/Main_Page
[19:50] <KingOfDos> unit3: if i'll use the "v4l2-ctl -d /dev/video0 --set-audio-input=0", i've still got no audio.
[19:51] <unit3> KingOfDos: there's a ticket about that in launchpad, is that where you've been looking before now?
[19:51] <KingOfDos> checked with "v4l2-ctl --list-audio-inputs", and i'm sure that input 0 is Tuner 1
[19:51] <unit3> First thing I'd do is try the different audio inputs just to make sure.
[19:54] <KingOfDos> I'll guess that if I use "cat /dev/video0 > somefile.mpg" the audio will also be dumped to that file?
[19:55] <FrozenIRSSI> I'm trying to setup an SSL certificate in ubuntu server 8.04 for apache, and i have the cert made, and setup, but it'sg iving me a "this site uses an older, insecure version of the ssl protocol" error
[19:56] <unit3> KingOfDos: yeah, should be.
[19:56] <unit3> then if you run that file through mplayer on the cli, you should see what it detects for video and audio streams.
[19:56] <unit3> (or the properties panel in vlc will show you the same thing)
[19:56] <zoredache> FrozenIRSSI: you might want 'SSLCipherSuite HIGH:MEDIUM' maybe
[19:57] <FrozenIRSSI> i have that in my apache directives already
[19:58] <KingOfDos> unit3: using mplayer from the CLI, i'll guess that de adevice=/dev/video0 will work then? i've also got found some nice commands for VLC (specificly for my card), so that's also another thing i can try.
[19:58] <unit3> yeah, you should be able to just point mplayer at /dev/video0.
[19:59] <unit3> either of those should be good for troubleshooting.
[19:59] <KingOfDos> and trying something from a GUI cannot be done, because it's a server (without X)
[19:59] <unit3> ahhh... well then, mplayer might give you more useful info, since vlc's more geared for its gui interface.
[19:59] <unit3> and mplayer tends to be pretty verbose by default. ;)
[20:00] <KingOfDos> i'm building an AJAX based webinterface for streamin TV to my computer and laptop (and soon a beamer). and a seperate card for the scheduled records.
[20:01] <unit3> neat. :)
[20:01] <KingOfDos> but still, i've got found some "strange" bugs in mplayer. known since ubuntu 8.04, but so far i can see it's not fixed.
[20:02] <unit3> yeah, that's why I mentioned vlc, since I find its playback seems to be a bit better than mplayers.
[20:02] <unit3> But for testing the streams mplayer should work fine.
[20:02] <unit3> I mean, it's just mpeg2, every movie player's been able to do that forever. ;)
[20:04] <KingOfDos> i've found this bug at launchpad, can that be my problem? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/228363
[20:08] <unit3> KingOfDos: seems likely, that's the bug I was mentioning before.
[20:08] <unit3> Might want to subscribe to that bug, and mention the lspci details of the card you're having problems with.
[20:19] <KingOfDos> unit3: thanks for the suggestions so far. i'm going to subscribe to that bug, and create a new post on it, including some information (lspci, dmesg).
[20:20] <unit3> Good plan. Hopefully people involved with the kernel packages can help you track it down further.
[20:20] <KingOfDos> afther that i'll post another bug that i'd discovert this morning with the 2.6.27-7-server kernel.
[20:20] <unit3> yeah? what's it relate to, generally?
[20:20] <KingOfDos> no that's for another device
[20:22] <KingOfDos> this old workstation with 3 TV cards is for private use, as some kind of server (apache, mysql, asterisk and more). the server with that "other" bug is at my work, something about that the kernel cannot initialize the system clock, and therefore dies/crashes.
[20:23] <KingOfDos> i'd see that there is an bug like that, but it's 64bit based. and that is happening on a 32bit server ;)
[20:24] <unit3> ahhh
[20:32] <j0N45> how do I install ubuntu-server via netinstall?
[20:33] <j0N45> I have mini.iso but I guess that installs ubuntu desktop or what exactly is the difference?
[20:34] <andol> j0N45: How well do you know your pxe? (dhcp, tftp, etc)
[20:35] <j0N45> some
[20:35] <unit3> j0N45: there's quite a few options documented on the wiki: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation#Server%20and%20network%20installations
[20:35] <unit3> I'd suggest going through those, and asking again if none meet your needs.
[20:36] <j0N45> hmm okey but the mini.iso doesn't work?
[20:36] <unit3> I believe it's tailored to the desktop install, yes.
[20:37] <unit3> but you may be able to use it for one of the install methods on the wiki.
[20:37] <j0N45> ahh okey but what exactly differs if I install with mini.iso but without X?
[20:38] <unit3> Does the mini.iso give you an option to install without X? I'm not really familiar with it.
[20:38] <unit3> If it's just installing up to ubuntu-standard, then probably not a lot is different.
[20:40] <j0N45> unit3: ok thanks for all help
[20:40] <unit3> np
[20:40] <KingOfDos> j0N45: you also can try the UCK
[20:40] <j0N45> UCK?
[20:41] <unit3> http://uck.sourceforge.net/
[20:41] <unit3> ubuntu customization kit.
[20:41] <unit3> makes custom installers.
[20:42] <j0N45> looks kinda cool
[20:44] <KingOfDos> and afther that you can boot the ISO from your network, for example using PXE. there are many options/methods to create/manage ubuntu :)
[20:45] <j0N45> :-)
[20:46] <KingOfDos> i'm using puppetmaster and puppet to maintain the already installed linux env. specialy to manage the firewalls from my management panel (some home-made website), but it can be used for many things.
[20:47] <KingOfDos> puppet is some kind of tool that will change/update files from the puppetmaster. you can execute a command after you'd changed a file.
[20:48] <j0N45> yeah I've heard quite a bit about puppet
[20:48] <j0N45> seems cool
[20:49] <FrozenIRSSI> so does anyone know why i'd be getting an an insecure version of the ssl protocol error when turning on ssl for apache?
[20:49]  * andol has an implimentation of puppet on his todo-list.
[20:49] <KingOfDos> i'm managing/manipulate/watching all my clients with puppet, zabbix, uck and some-kind of PXE env. and everything is webbased managable (for my boss, who is manager and not an IT-er).
[20:50] <KingOfDos> FrozenIRSSI: what version of ubuntu? i'll guess that your problem is based on the debian random number generator "bug"
[20:50] <andol> KingOfDos: Is that really the kind of power you want to put in the hands of a manager? :-)
[20:50] <FrozenIRSSI> 8.04
[20:50] <FrozenIRSSI> server edition
[20:51] <FrozenIRSSI> firefox gives me "(Error code: ssl_error_ssl2_disabled)"
[20:51] <KingOfDos> andol: some basic things, yea. he claims to be IT, but he only can manage some windows stuff.
[20:51] <unit3> lol andol
[20:52] <Nafallo> andol: ooh. so you've found your way here? :-)
[20:52] <unit3> well, time to go track down some donuts. :)
[20:52] <andol> Nafallo: I'm afraid so :)
[20:52] <Nafallo> I'm not. iz awesomenezz
[20:52] <KingOfDos> isn't that error just generated directly from firefox, because (for example) the ssl2 is disabled at your browser?
[20:54] <FrozenIRSSI> i have no idea, that's what i'm trying to figure out... and if that's thec ase i don't understand why it's even using ssl2
[20:54] <KingOfDos> quote from some website "SSL2 is disabled by default in Opera/MicroB (and also most desktop browsers such as IE and Firefox) as it's widely known to be insecure and it's continued use places the users data at risk."
[20:54] <FrozenIRSSI> i am trying to figure out how to get ubuntu se to use ssl3 like it should be
[20:56] <KingOfDos> using the correct apache options i'll guess? ;)
[20:57] <FrozenIRSSI> as far as i can tell i AM using the correct options. i have "SSLProtocol +SSLv3 -SSLv2"
[20:58] <ScottK> FrozenIRSSI: Don't use SSLv2
[20:58] <FrozenIRSSI> i would love not to, but i hvae no idea why it's even trying to use sslv2
[20:58] <FrozenIRSSI> i've followed every ubuntu ssl tutorial i've seen, and i still get this same error
[20:59]  * ScottK doesn't know much about Apache.
[21:00] <KingOfDos> i know something about apache, but not mutch about certificates. can it be possible that the cert is incorrectly generated, so apache can't use ssl3?
[21:01] <ScottK> Certificates don't know what version you have.
[21:01] <FrozenIRSSI> i'm using make-ssl-cert, as well as trying to use openssl to do manual self-signed certs... no difference
[21:01] <KingOfDos> did you try "SSLProtocol all -SSLv2"?
[21:02] <FrozenIRSSI> just did that one.
[21:03] <FrozenIRSSI> i found another tutorial that's -all +SSLv3 +TLSv1... didn't work either
[21:04] <KingOfDos> what comes at the apache error.log file after you restart the apache server?
[21:04] <FrozenIRSSI> 13120:error:140770FC:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:unknown protocol:s23_clnt.c:583:
[21:05] <FrozenIRSSI> that's from openssl's s_client
[21:05] <FrozenIRSSI> i have no errors in apache's error log
[21:05] <KingOfDos> strange
[21:08] <KingOfDos> Then I'll guess that my apache+ssl knowledge is to small
[21:09] <KingOfDos> What if you completely remove the SSLProtocol directive?
[21:10] <FrozenIRSSI> same thing
[21:10] <KingOfDos> i've got only 3 rules (sslengine on, and one for the key, and one for the pemfile), that's all.
[21:13] <arrrghhh> howdy.  i just upgraded my server, and now there's no network cards present!  is there anything i have to do when i swap mobos?
[21:13] <arrrghhh> i thought linux didn't really care if i swapped hardware...
[21:26] <arrrghhh> k nvm i figured it out.  what's the best tool for partitioning in the console?
[21:31] <zoredache> arrrghhh: I like cfdisk
[21:32] <arrrghhh> can i format with it?
[21:33] <zoredache> no, if you want to format something, you juse mkfs.ext3 or mkfs.whatever...
[21:34] <arrrghhh> hrm ok.
[21:34] <hads> cfdisk is groovy
[21:35] <arrrghhh> i just got a new 1tb hdd, and i want to use it to backup my ntfs drives so i can freakin format them to ext3 as well
[21:36] <arrrghhh> Couldn't find any package matching "cfdisk".  However, the following packages contain "cfdisk" in their description: gpart
[21:36] <zoredache> so you use cfdisk to delete any existing partitions, and create your linux partition, then format it with mkfs.ext3
[21:36] <zoredache> arrrghhh: cfdisk is most likely already installed
[21:36] <hads> cfdisk will be installed
[21:37] <hads> hads@snowman:~$ dpkg -S `which cfdisk`
[21:37] <hads> util-linux: /sbin/cfdisk
[21:37] <arrrghhh> it is
[21:37] <arrrghhh> but i run it: FATAL ERROR: Cannot open disk drive.  i'm guessing it's trying to get a lock on my ROOT hdd?
[21:38] <hads> You'll need root permission
[21:38] <arrrghhh> ah
[21:38] <zoredache> arrrghhh: cfdisk is most likely already installed
[21:38] <arrrghhh> root permissions did it.  thanks hads.  i'm just not thinkin straight today.
[21:43] <arrrghhh> so after i make the 2 500gb partitions, i use mkfs?
[21:44] <arrrghhh> they look good to go, i'm guessing they're not actually formatted?
[21:45] <zoredache> they are not formatted, to format them you whould run a command like 'sudo mkfs.ext3 /dev/sdb2'
[21:46] <arrrghhh> schweet.
[21:46] <zoredache> you might want to set a volume lable with -L Lable.  There are lots more options if you want to tweak things man mkfs.ext3
[21:49] <arrrghhh> hrm.  well it's formatting.  any guess as to why when i play music the songs stop before they're done?  is there anyway to tell that nfs is running out of bandwidth?  i haven't tried adjusting the buffers for nfs yet./
[21:49] <arrrghhh> does cfdisk add entries to fstab?  i'm guessing not.
[21:50] <zoredache> nope
[21:51] <zoredache> arrrghhh: when a song stops playing does the next song play?
[21:51] <arrrghhh> yes, the next song starts right away, no delay.
[21:52] <zoredache> if you copy the files locally do the play completely?
[21:52] <arrrghhh> i've reproduced this with amarok and kaffeine and vlc.  songbird hasn't been working so well for me lately, and amarok is screwing up a lot.
[21:52] <arrrghhh> yes they do, i tested that as well.
[21:52] <arrrghhh> that's why i figured an nfs buffer issue or something.
[21:53] <arrrghhh> now songs are playing all the way thru, it was just that first song.  previously i would chalk it up to my crappy old server hanging on ntfs-3g module suckng all the processor cycles.
[21:53] <arrrghhh> which is why i upgraded my hardware so i can ditch the ntfs drives.
[21:53] <zoredache> and you don't have issues read/writing any other types of files?  NFS is pretty well tested, and has good default settings
[21:55] <arrrghhh> i was having issues, but i cleared those up (i was mounting the ntfs drives in fstab improperly)
[22:00] <arrrghhh> it is working ok now.  i'm just hoping completely freeing myself of the ntfs plague that a lot of my issues will be cleared up :D
[22:01] <zoredache> I suspect it will make a big difference
[22:01] <doctorX> hello
[22:02] <doctorX> we need some help
[22:02] <zoredache> !question
[22:03] <doctorX> i couldn't install my ubuntu 8.10 on my olidata tehom 7601 ,
[22:04] <zoredache> how unfortunate.
[22:05] <zoredache> Did you have a question?
[22:05] <doctorX> run well on my laptop ibm t30 , but crashed boot on olidata
[22:05] <doctorX> simply, how to install ubuntu on olidata tehom 7601 ?
[22:06] <zoredache> perhaps you should start with tell us what happened when you tried to install.  Read the error messages on the screen and such.
[22:07] <doctorX> ubuntu is installed corectly, but crash in boot
[22:07] <doctorX> i mean after installing
[22:13] <doctorX> hello cateye
[22:13] <doctorX> how to install ubuntu on laptop olidata tehom 7601
[22:48] <unit3> Ugg... just got bit with a rather severe upstream bug in md: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=495580
[22:48] <unit3> Is there a launchpad bug to track that?
[22:49] <unit3> I couldn't find anything on some simple searches, so I though I'd check here.
[22:50] <unit3> It's pretty nasty... after being removed, a new spare doesn't get resynced to a raid10 array.
[22:50] <unit3> So I'm sitting here with the right amount of drives, but md is refusing to add the spare, even though it sees it, so my data's still vulnerable. :(
[22:56] <unit3> ahh, it is on launchpad, bug #285156.
[22:56] <unit3> Not linked to the debian bug, but I'll fix that now.
[22:57] <unit3> Awesome. Launchpad claims that "mdadm" is not a valid source package upstream. :P
[22:58] <unit3> I guess I'll link it to the debian bug without the package name for now. :P
[23:36] <Gemini420> ehlo
[23:37] <Gemini420> wow, 151 users doing something *else* ...
[23:41] <unit3> heh


[07:05] <oSoMoN> good morning
[18:53] <Saviq> greyback: re XPending, I'm talking `if(XPending() > 0) { while (XNextEvent()) {} }`
[18:53] <Saviq> and have that in a slot for QSocketNotifier.activated() on ConnectionNumber()
[18:53] <greyback> Saviq: yep! I am mid-way of fixing that comment, is wrong
[18:53] <Saviq> greyback: ConnectionNumber() gives you a fd of the X connection
[18:54] <Saviq> while (XPending) { while (XNextEvent) }} doesn't really make sense
[18:54] <greyback> Saviq: Yeah that was rubbish, sorry
[18:54] <Saviq> no worries
[18:54] <Saviq> [...] you can then put a QSocketNotifier on that fd
[18:55] <greyback> I meant while(true){ if (XPending() > 0){ while (XNextEvent()) {  ... }}}
[18:55] <Saviq> that will fire activated() whenever that fd is ready to be read
[18:55] <greyback> but it works badly
[18:55] <Saviq> yeah, it just loops
[18:55] <greyback> Yeah, I understand
[18:57] <Saviq> greyback: I only learned that while working on gestures recently, so that was a big facepalm :)
[18:57] <greyback> Saviq: it's a much nicer solution than what I was trying anyway
[19:00] <Saviq> greyback: and what I initially wrote, too
[19:00] <greyback> Saviq: are you working on it now? Or something related?
[19:01] <greyback> I don't want to duplicate your work again
[19:01] <Saviq> greyback: no, just seen your comment on the merge
[19:01] <greyback> Saviq: ok. Comment hudely appreciated!
[19:01] <greyback> hugely even
[19:01] <Saviq> greyback: should be easy
[19:02] <greyback> Saviq: doing it now :)
[19:04] <Saviq> greyback: GestureHandler in launcher does ~that now
[19:04] <Saviq> just with fd from utouch, not X
[19:04] <greyback> Saviq: I see. Will check it out


[09:40] <jtaylor> can I query who moved something from main to universe?
[09:40] <jtaylor> given the changelog gmm is obsolete in universe as we have getfem++
[09:40] <jtaylor> but instead of removing it it was just dumped on us it seems
[09:41] <cjwatson> err, we don't generally apply that much thought
[09:42] <cjwatson> if component-mismatches says to move it and there are no reverse deps in main, we move it, pretty much
[09:42] <cjwatson> we don't spend time seeing whether it should be removed first
[09:42] <jtaylor> k
[09:43] <cjwatson> I don't believe there's any audit trail of override changes except for the date; at any rate, back in January there was no way for Launchpad to know who did the move
[09:43] <jtaylor> I just wanted to check if there might have been reason for why it still exists before I file for removal
[09:43] <cjwatson> (because at that point removals were done from a shared account rather than over the API)
[09:43] <cjwatson> but I think it's still true that there's no audit trail of that
[09:44] <cjwatson> er s/removals/override changes/
[11:48] <jtaylor> why do we have two glade sources?
[11:48] <jtaylor> 3.8 and 3.14
[12:40] <shadeslayer> hm, question, when upstream uses autotools, should they release a tarball after running autogen.sh  or is autogen.sh run during the build?
[12:41] <shadeslayer> *supposed to be run during the build
[12:41] <jtaylor> normally autogen or autoreconf is run by upstream
[12:41] <jtaylor> and the output put into the tarballs
[12:42] <jtaylor> then the user does not need autofoo installed to build
[12:42] <shadeslayer> hm .. ok, then upstream's tarball is most certainly broken
[12:42] <jtaylor> for packaging its often wise to run autoreconf during build
[12:42] <jtaylor> dh-autoreconf helps with that
[12:42] <shadeslayer> yeah, I was already looking at that :)
[12:43] <shadeslayer> it's just that upstream released a tarball withour running autogen.sh
[12:43] <shadeslayer> so I'll have to repack it
[12:43] <jtaylor> repack?
[12:43] <jtaylor> running autogen should be enough for the package
[12:45] <shadeslayer> okay
[12:45] <jtaylor> unless of course the tarball does not have the autotools files in it
[12:45] <jtaylor> which makes the source tarball utterly useless
[12:45] <shadeslayer> autotools files?
[12:46] <jtaylor> configure.ac Makefile.am etc
[12:46] <shadeslayer> ah, that it does have
[12:46] <shadeslayer> the only issue is that upstream forgot to run autogen.sh
[12:46]  * shadeslayer is from the CMake world
[12:47] <shadeslayer> I've only used autotools extensively once, and that too worked in the first go, so don't have alot of experience ;)
[12:55] <shadeslayer> jtaylor: btw when you said running autogen should be enough for the package, did you mean I should run autogen.sh inside the build using debian/rules ?
[12:55] <jtaylor> autogen.sh normally just does autreconf + some flags
[12:55] <jtaylor> dh-autoreconf does that too
[12:55] <jtaylor> so with dh-7 rules its just --with autoreconf
[12:56] <shadeslayer> actually, this autogen.sh has some other stuff as well
[12:56] <shadeslayer> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1249416/
[12:56] <jtaylor> dh-autoreconf can also execute a script
[12:56] <shadeslayer> ah ok
[12:56] <jtaylor> override_dh_autoreconf: dh_autoreconf -- ./autogen.sh
[12:56] <shadeslayer> right :)
[13:00] <shadeslayer> thanks :)
[13:01] <shadeslayer> oh whee .. stupid autogen.sh also runs configure, and the only way to fix it is to patch it out
[13:01] <jtaylor> don'T use autogen then
[13:01] <jtaylor> autoreconf should be enough in most cases
[13:02] <shadeslayer> actually, I need intltoolize --automake --copy --force || exit 1
[13:02] <shadeslayer> for translations
[13:02] <shadeslayer> I guess I could just run all of the commands manually via rules and skip configure
[13:02] <jtaylor> autoreconf should include that, but I have to check
[13:03] <shadeslayer> doesn't I think
[13:04] <jtaylor> then the configure.ac should be buggy
[13:04] <jtaylor> hm no it does not seem included
[13:45] <shadeslayer> jtaylor: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1249498/ < does that look sane?
[13:47] <jtaylor> the exit 1 is unnecessary
[13:47] <jtaylor> else its fine
[13:48] <jtaylor> please add a newline between the targets
[13:48] <jtaylor> makes it more readable
[13:48] <shadeslayer> yeah, fixed that locally :)
[17:21] <cjwatson> shadeslayer: dh_autoconfigure -> dh_auto_configure in the diff above
[17:22] <cjwatson> and really that override_dh_autoreconf is busted, because it won't allow dh-autoreconf to keep track of changed files correctly
[17:22] <cjwatson> I would suggest writing a script called something like debian/autogen with the commands you need, and then dh_autoreconf -- debian/autogen
[17:23] <cjwatson> or
[17:23] <cjwatson> autogen:
[17:23] <cjwatson>         autoreconf -fi
[17:23] <cjwatson>         glib-gettextize --copy --force
[17:23] <cjwatson>         intltoolize --automake --copy --force
[17:23] <cjwatson> and then 'dh_autoreconf -- debian/rules autogen
[17:23] <cjwatson> '
[17:24] <cjwatson> which BTW are the two suggestions for this situation in dh-autoreconf(1)
[17:24] <cjwatson> then you shouldn't need the override_dh_clean
[17:46] <shadeslayer> oh hmm
[17:46] <shadeslayer> cjwatson: thanks for the suggestions, I'll fix it :)
[18:29] <ESphynx> awesome Ecere has been acceptd into Debian Experimental =) thanks everyone


[09:52] <gmb> Hurrah for /++form++ links. Sadly, in this case, I can't use one.
[09:52] <wgrant> Why does DistroSeries.lucilleconfig still exist?     Keep trying, though.
[12:40] <gmb> Oh, wait.
[12:40] <deryck> heh
[12:41] <wgrant> Heh.
[12:41] <deryck> I'm actually not easily annoyed... but firebug and I are on not-so-friendly terms these days.
[12:45] <gmb> deryck: Do you know if there are any good notes about using the JS webservice client? It's frustrating me to death.
[12:46] <deryck> gmb, I don't know of any notes, sorry.  I just grep around the js files we have for prior art.
[12:46] <gmb> Rats.
[12:46] <gmb> deryck: Oh well, thanks anyway. Maybe I need food before continuing. Yes, that seems likely.
[12:46]  * gmb -> lunch
[12:51] <mrevell> I've just posted an interview with the people from Open Mind, a MIT project to build a database of common sense concepts. They're using LP. Some interesting stuff -- http://blog.launchpad.net/projects/open-mind-and-launchpad
[13:07] <deryck> oh happy freakin' day I fixed firebug for me.
[13:08] <deryck> gmb, uninstall firebug, close FF, grep your profile directory for firebug entries (mostly locatestore.rdf and prefs.js), delete those entries and then reinstall firebug.  Firebug behaves again!
[13:50] <bac> mrevell-lunch: ping me when you're back from lunch
[13:51] <beuno> mrevell-lunch, are we on for our call in 10?
[13:54] <deryck> leonardr, ping.
[13:54] <leonardr> hi deryck
[13:55] <deryck> leonardr, hi.  I have a question about the js web service client and trying to get a result back in html...
[13:55] <leonardr> ok
[13:55] <deryck> leonardr, I'm trying something like: https://pastebin.canonical.com/20439/
[13:55] <deryck> leonardr, am I on track here, or is there a better way?
[13:57] <leonardr> deryck, what is the PATCHplugin? i've never heard of it
[13:57] <leonardr> the code looks fine but i just never heard of that PATCHplugin
[13:57] <leonardr> the way you get an xhtml representation is to specify 'accept', as you did
[13:58] <deryck> leonardr, PATCHplugin is in lib/canonical/launchpad/javascript/client/client.js and comment says: * This plugin overrides the widget _saveData method to update the * underlying model object using a PATCH call.
[13:59] <leonardr> oh, ok. so it's a way of making the web service the destination of widget actions
[14:00] <deryck> leonardr, right.  So this looks like the right path I'm headed down then?
[14:00] <leonardr> deryck, yes, it looks like it
[14:00] <deryck> leonardr, excellent.  thanks for the help!
[14:01] <leonardr> np
[14:10] <gmb> deryck: Ah! That's... annoying but useful. Thanks.
[14:16] <deryck> gmb, yeah, you would think it could blow away previous defaults or somehow be backwards compatible.
[14:31] <sinzui> bac, Edwin, salgado: standup in 2 minutes
[14:34] <intellectronica> leonardr: i'm having an interesting problem using the webservice. it seems it can't mix between api.launchpad.net/beta and launchpad.net/api/beta url. if i post to and using the other in a value it complains
[14:35] <intellectronica> leonardr: i've got a workaround, but i think it would make sense to allow both, no?
[14:35] <leonardr> intellectronica, are you using an ajax client?
[14:35] <intellectronica> leonardr: indeed
[14:36] <intellectronica> oh, of course, domain restrictions!
[14:36] <leonardr> actually, it might not be because of domain restrictions, now that i think about it
[14:36] <intellectronica> still, i'm not trying to access a different domain. i just pass a uri as a value
[14:37] <leonardr> i think the parser assumes incoming urls use the same host as the host of the current request
[14:37] <leonardr> that'd be pretty hard to change; how annoying is this for you?
[14:38] <intellectronica> leonardr: it's annoying in that i have to write code especially to convert the result of canonical_url (which uses the api domain) to the format which uses the /api root. it seems wrong to have that hard coded
[14:38] <intellectronica> as i said, it works now, so i can leave it with an XXX, but i think that it would be good if in the future we handled that
[14:38] <leonardr> intellectronica: i think bjornt has fixed the underlying problem
[14:39] <intellectronica> leonardr: even in the absence of a webservice request?
[14:40] <leonardr> intellectronica: ok, let's back up
[14:40] <leonardr> where are you getting the data that you have to convert?
[14:40] <intellectronica> the problem i have is that i do the formatting in a normal web request
[14:41] <intellectronica> leonardr: while processing a normal browser request, i take an object (from a vocabulary) and i want to get the api url for it, which i will use when issuing a PATCH request from the AJAX client
[14:41] <leonardr> ok, you are writing code in launchpad
[14:41] <leonardr> i thought you were writing client code
[14:41] <intellectronica> yup
[14:42] <intellectronica> leonardr: well, i'm doing both. the client code wants an api url in the same domain as the page
[14:42] <intellectronica> but i'm preparing this value in advance when rendering the page
[14:43] <leonardr> intellectronica, what bjornt did was change canonical_url so that if you did not pass in a request object, it would give you the object's website url, not the web service url
[14:44] <intellectronica> leonardr: right, so that won't solve my problem
[14:44] <leonardr> but that won't help you. you need to get the object's web service url for the web service as accessed through the website
[14:44] <intellectronica> leonardr: what i have to do now is get the website url, parse it, inject '/api/beta' and unparse
[14:45] <intellectronica> leonardr: maybe all i need to do is extract this to a function we can use everywhere. i don't know if it makes sense to overload canonical_url with more stuff
[14:46] <leonardr> intellectronica: in theory there's some request object you could create and pass into canonical_url that would make canonical_url do what you want
[14:46] <leonardr> canonical_url already generates those urls under some circumstances
[14:46] <intellectronica> leonardr: ok, that may be a better way to implement that, but i still don't think i should have to do that every time i need to generate a url
[14:47] <intellectronica> leonardr: also, it seems a bit wrong to create a request object just for that purpose
[14:47] <leonardr> intellectronica, we create request objects all the time for similar purposes
[14:47] <leonardr> changing canonical_url is a huge task
[14:48] <intellectronica> fair enough. do you maybe remember a place where we do that?
[14:48] <intellectronica> leonardr: i agree. i think i'll just create a new helper function, webservice_canonical_url() or something like that
[14:48] <leonardr> intellectronica: check out bjornt's code. you can do the same thing in your helper function, but also check canonical_url to see what the request has to look like for that kind of url to be generated
[14:49] <intellectronica> leonardr: cool, thanks
[14:51] <BjornT> intellectronica: it might work if you simply do: canonical_url(ob, request=IWebServiceClientRequest(request))
[14:51] <BjornT> intellectronica: but hard to say without looking at your code
[14:54] <intellectronica> BjornT: yes, that seems to work just fine. thanks!
[15:11] <gmb> Gah. Did I mention that I hate Javascript?
[15:11] <mars> :)
[15:17] <maxb> Does anyone like Javascript? :-)
[15:31] <kfogel> mrevell: ready to skype?
[15:32] <mrevell> Hi kfogel, almost, just making a cup of tea
[15:33] <kfogel> mrevell: no rush, I'm on skype now
[15:34] <kfogel> mrevell: meaning, available when you're ready, but take your time
[15:35] <gmb> Does anyone have any idea under what circumstances a named_post would just sort of vanish into the ether when called from Javascript? Neither success nor failure callbacks are called.
[15:36] <gmb> Ah, wait.
[15:36] <gmb> If I actually read the output from the server, that would help.
[15:53] <rockstar> morning
[15:54] <noodles775_> beuno: It'd be great to be able to find out exactly what the purpose and use-cases of a page is on LP - documenting that info in some permanent location.
[15:54] <noodles775_> beuno: I think mars mentioned something along those lines the other week...
[15:54] <beuno> noodles775_, yes
[15:54] <noodles775_> beuno: but I've created https://dev.launchpad.net/SoyuzBuildersIndexPage
[15:55] <noodles775_> as an example, and will fill it out as I get info, but is there anything you'd add (I'm about to create a second one for another page)
[15:56] <beuno> noodles775_, on calls, but will look at it afer them
[15:56] <noodles775_> beuno: yep, no rush. Thanks.
[16:36]  * rockstar is glad to have 4 cores, since make schema is chewing on an entire core
[17:50] <sinzui> beuno: I would like your opinion of the screencaps for bug 399010.
[17:50] <ubot3> Malone bug 399010 in launchpad-registry "Update simple edit pages to base-layout" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/399010
[17:50] <mup> Bug #399010: Update simple edit pages to base-layout <story-ui-3> <Launchpad Registry:In Progress by sinzui> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/399010>
[17:50] <mup> Bug #399010: Update simple edit pages to base-layout <story-ui-3> <Launchpad Registry:In Progress by sinzui> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/399010>
[17:50] <mup> Bug #399010: Update simple edit pages to base-layout <story-ui-3> <Launchpad Registry:In Progress by sinzui> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/399010>
[17:50]  * sinzui now hacks on project page
[17:51] <rockstar> Looks like we need to either kill ubot3 or mup...
[17:53] <gmb> rockstar: Better still, make them fight until one dies.
[17:53] <sinzui> two bots enter, one bot leaves
[17:54] <sinzui> I suspect mup is cheating and may in fact be 3 bots
[18:07]  * gmb EODs
[18:12] <beuno> sinzui, finishing lunch, and will look
[18:24] <abentley> rockstar: chat?
[18:25] <rockstar> abentley, sure.  One sec.
[18:32] <abentley> rockstar: https://launchpad.canonical.com/DeveloperDocumentation/TemplateCodeReuse
[18:48] <rockstar> abentley, actually, the more I think about it, the more it would seem to follow current conventions if it was a link to a single submit button form value.
[18:48] <rockstar> abentley, although I am not qualified to make UI decisions.
[18:48]  * rockstar hates the look of HTML buttons
[18:50] <abentley> rockstar: I think following conventions is good, up to a point.  I think that having people go to another page just to click a submit button is past that point.
[18:50] <rockstar> Yes, this is true.  I'm pretty torn.
[18:51] <abentley> You could almost justify it if you were asking for confirmation, because claiming a review can't be undone.
[18:51] <beuno> sinzui,
[18:52] <beuno> are you up for a massive challenge?
[18:52] <rockstar> abentley, ah, yes, that would actually make sense.
[18:52] <sinzui> Dude. I just discovered that the new heading and the title edit-widget are incompatible. I am already in a challenge
[18:53] <beuno> sinzui, heh, ok
[18:53] <beuno> I'll try and tackle it then
[18:53] <beuno> we need to fix our freakin forms
[18:53] <sinzui> beuno: but I am available
[18:53] <beuno> this right-aligned bullshit has to stop
[18:53] <rockstar> beuno, AMEN!
[18:54] <beuno> I've tried to train my eyes to ignore it, but I can't
[18:54] <sinzui> beuno. Yeah. There are some near infinite length fields too
[18:54] <beuno> sinzui, I'll address
[18:54] <beuno> I'll do it NOW
[18:55] <sinzui> beuno: a subtle change to launchpad-form-macros will change everything, as too might the css rule
[19:03] <beuno> sinzui, more from my ourage soon
[19:03] <beuno> I was looking through your screencaps
[19:03] <beuno> but that issue lept coming up
[19:04] <beuno> sinzui, the template changes look
[19:04] <beuno> fine
[19:04] <beuno> there are a lot of peripheral issues to solve
[19:04] <sinzui> beuno: I understand. That is why the screencaps are repetative...so it is obvious there is something else we need to do to land my branch
[19:04] <beuno> :)
[19:05] <beuno> sinzui, there's something else
[19:05] <beuno> about a change we made to edit/add/remove icons
[19:05] <beuno> the rule should be: if you can edit/remove an object, the icon should be on it's right
[19:05] <beuno> if it's an action, on the left
[19:05] <beuno> is there any way we can change that?
[19:06] <beuno> I don't like the result of having the add/remove on the right of action links
[19:07] <sinzui> beuno: How do we know the link is an action?
[19:07] <beuno> sinzui, my guess is that the only way is to specify it?
[19:07] <beuno> by default it's an action, but a parameter modifies that?
[19:07] <sinzui> Well in th screencaps, what is wrong with the links?
[19:07] <sinzui> which ones are wrong
[19:08] <beuno> Related actions
[19:08] <sinzui> beuno: you are editing the project in all cases
[19:08] <beuno> sinzui, right, but they are action links
[19:08] <beuno> what I mean by object, is the actual's object name
[19:08] <beuno> Project name (i)
[19:09] <beuno> (I) Edit something something
[19:09] <beuno> in the first case, the important information is the object's name, and secondary is the fact you can edit it
[19:09] <beuno> and in the second case, the important information is that you can edit something
[19:10] <sinzui> beuno: If the icon must follow something else in the page, then we use fmt:icon, and we make fmt:icon always render the with the icon on the left
[19:11] <beuno> sinzui, and for editable objects?
[19:11] <sinzui> So the rule is: developers may only use fmt:icon  when they are placing a link to edit the "thing" that just rendered
[19:12] <sinzui> is editable objects the same as "thing" that just rendered?
[19:12] <beuno> yes, but that means it should be on the right
[19:12] <beuno> I think add will *always* be on the left, for example
[19:13] <beuno> because it has to tell you what it adds
[19:13] <sinzui> beuno: I think the rule then is the link text can never be rendered before the icon. The icon may be rendered after the object's text/representation
[19:13] <beuno> but edit and remove placed next to something is clear enough
[19:13] <beuno> yes to that second statement
[19:14] <beuno> rockstar, have you heard about BjornT's super inline bug commenting branch?
[19:14] <sinzui> beuno: in https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/399010, I see "Unsubscribe (-)".
[19:14] <mup> Bug #399010: Update simple edit pages to base-layout <story-ui-3> <Launchpad Registry:In Progress by sinzui> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/399010>
[19:14] <ubot3> Malone bug 399010 in launchpad-registry "Update simple edit pages to base-layout" [High,In progress]
[19:14] <mup> Bug #399010: Update simple edit pages to base-layout <story-ui-3> <Launchpad Registry:In Progress by sinzui> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/399010>
[19:14] <beuno> rockstar, I think you should steal it for reviews as soon as it lands
[19:14] <beuno> sinzui, right. I think that looks wrong.
[19:15] <beuno> it should be "(-) Unsubscribe"
[19:15] <sinzui> beuno: I think by your rule (fuck you mup) the link should be...okay we agree
[19:15] <beuno> :)
[19:15] <beuno> Martin Albisetti (-)
[19:15] <sinzui> beuno: I think I can fix this in a few deft lines of code.
[19:15] <beuno> unsubscribes me
[19:15] <beuno> sinzui, you will elevate your status from personal heroe to personal god
[19:16] <sinzui> If only I had physique of a code instead of an deskbound hacker
[19:16] <sinzui> wow, how did "code" get into that sentence
[19:17] <sinzui> oh well.
[19:17]  * beuno wonders what he meant
[19:17] <sinzui> s/code/god/
[19:17] <beuno> :)
[19:17] <beuno> BIG typo there
[19:19] <EdwinGrubbs> sinzui: the SourcePackageNameVocabulary is in registry/model/sourcepackagename.py instead of registry/vocabularies.py. Is this part of the reorg or just wrong?
[19:20] <sinzui> I think it was wrong and was not automatically fixed by the migration script
[19:21] <rockstar> beuno, sounds good.  I have a backlog of branches that need to land first, but I'll keep it in mind.
[19:24] <beuno> bigjools, mockup is looking better
[19:24] <beuno> although seeing it with data it makes me realize some of my thoughts where bogus
[19:26] <beuno> sinzui, I went through an intensive review of navigation with the UX team and Mark today
[19:26] <beuno> and we're looking good
[19:26] <beuno> I should get a final-ish mockup back tomorrow
[19:27] <sinzui> rock
[19:27] <beuno> which is *very* similar to the last one you saw
[19:35] <rockstar> Would someone like to do a JS review for me?
[19:37] <sinzui> beuno: This is the fix for the modify icons: https://pastebin.canonical.com/20476/ I replaces "sprite-after" with "sprint modify". We do not have a .modify class. If you need to act just on those links, you now have a hook
[19:38] <sinzui> s/"sprint modify"/"sprite modify"/
[19:38] <beuno> sinzui, rock
[19:38] <beuno> thanks
[19:38] <beuno> deryck may go crazy
[19:38] <sinzui> This will land when pqm opens
[19:38] <beuno> thanks sinzui
[19:39]  * deryck looks at scrollback, smelling icon changes again
[19:42] <deryck> beuno, why will I go crazy?  Because of changing the icon positioning again? :)
[19:43] <sinzui> deryck: only if you are not using the approved way of making links. fmt:link JDRT
[19:43]  * beuno hides
[19:43] <deryck> sinzui, fmt:link doesn't exist in js. :)
[19:43] <sinzui> deryck: fmt:link-icon and fmt:icon-link will also work because They are just aliases for fmt:link
[19:44] <sinzui> deryck: if you used sprite-after, you will need to change it to sprite modify.
[19:44] <deryck> sinzui, yeah, I don't think it's going to be a pain.  Was just going to give beuno a hard time about it. :)
[19:45]  * beuno unhides!
[19:45] <beuno> aha!
[19:45] <beuno> :)
[19:45] <beuno> I promise, I'm standarizing on this rule
[19:46] <beuno> sinzui, how crazy do you think I am if I drop the use of tables from forms?
[19:46] <rockstar> deryck, I think you might like the branch I just sent you.  I'm working on devising a way of pulling markup out of js and back to tal again.
[19:46] <beuno> I will have to spend a year of my life fixing tests, right?
[19:46] <deryck> rockstar, oh cool
[19:46] <sinzui> beuno: you will cry. the problem is larger than sprites
[19:46] <deryck> rockstar, did you ever branch subscriptions?
[19:46] <beuno> crap
[19:46] <deryck> ever do, that is.
[19:46] <sinzui> beuno: there are a lot of widgets that render as tr and td combos because they know all forms are tables
[19:47] <rockstar> deryck, I haven't finished it, but I will need to make LOTS of changes to it.  It's going to be more complicated than bug subscriptions, because our subscriptions have state.
[19:47] <deryck> rockstar, right.
[19:47] <beuno> ok, well, I'm going to ask to get this for my birthday then
[19:47] <sinzui> beuno: they also assume the table is 2 column. I have seen BAD thing happen when they do not mix well
[19:48] <deryck> rockstar, I do have nicer Subscriber and Subscription objects in js now, which you may be better able to re-use.  If you haven't seen those yet.
[19:48] <rockstar> deryck, I saw that.
[19:48] <deryck> doesn't help the state difference, but handling users is slightly better.
[19:49] <beuno> sinzui, I could cheat and make everything colspan=2  :)
[19:49] <beuno> especially now that flacoste is on vacations and can't see me
[19:49] <sinzui> beuno: hey! that is my cheat. I used it last release
[19:49] <beuno> fantastic, I know have someone to blame
[19:50] <sinzui> beuno: use the change password view to verify our hacks work
[19:52]  * beuno stabs stuff
[20:05] <beuno> sinzui, the password change form seems to do something funky
[20:05] <sinzui> beuno: it does!
[20:06] <beuno> why?!
[20:06] <sinzui> beuno: solve that form and most of the widget weirdness will also be solved
[20:06] <beuno> and where do I stab it?
[20:06] <beuno> I mean
[20:06] <beuno> I changed the forms macros
[20:06] <beuno> and the first field is fixed
[20:06] <beuno> but the next two remain the same
[20:06] <beuno> they have th's out of nowhere!
[20:07] <sinzui> beuno: The password widget is inserting it's own markup. many of our widgets do
[20:07]  * beuno bangs head against table
[20:07] <beuno> sinzui, so I should dive into python?
[20:07] <beuno> why does it *just* do that for 2 fields?  when all 3 of them are exactly the same?
[20:08] <sinzui> beuno: EdwinGrubbs discovered that the widgets in that form never align. We decided that setting the width of one column will give the illusion on good design
[20:09] <sinzui> beuno: I think you need to look at the HTML templates used by each widget.
[20:09] <beuno> *sigh*
[20:10]  * beuno removes infinite length for input boxes
[20:10]  * sinzui high five's beuno
[20:11] <beuno> sinzui, I will want you to review this branch
[20:11] <sinzui> beuno: I think these are the problematic controls: https://pastebin.canonical.com/20478/
[20:11] <sinzui> sure
[20:11] <beuno> I want to make non-optional labels bold
[20:11] <beuno> thoughts?
[20:12] <beuno> oh, THANK YOU for that list
[20:12] <sinzui> beuno: I support every effort to fix the madness. I looked at the issue last year and walked away
[20:47] <beuno> does anyone remember the large ec2 instance's name?
[20:47] <beuno> -i x1.large?
[20:48] <beuno> gary_poster, ^
[20:48] <beuno> (and, can we make that the default?)
[20:48] <gary_poster> beuno do ec2test --help
[20:48] <beuno> ah  :)
[20:48] <beuno> I did, but didn't read
[20:48] <gary_poster> :-)
[20:48] <beuno> thanks gary_poster
[20:48] <gary_poster> np
[20:48] <beuno> any reason why that's not the default?
[20:49] <beuno> oh, it says it does now
[21:02] <maxb> gary_poster: Hi - Your name has been mentioned in connection with Launchpad + Python 2.5 a bit - are there any bugs / branches that I, being interested in that, might want to keep an eye on?
[21:04] <gary_poster> maxb: hi.  When I get back to this branch and get it landed, we'll have the infrastructure for others to start helping (by moving to newer versions of dependencies, for instance): https://edge.launchpad.net/~gary/launchpad/zbuildout
[21:04] <maxb> Can you un-private that branch, if you're at liberty to do so?
[21:07] <gary_poster> maxb: oh, sure, sorry.  haven't done that.  beuno (since you tagged me ;-) ), I either ask a losa to do that, or subscribe the launchpad public team, or just push another new branch up, right?
[21:09] <maxb> There is no edit icon for you next to "This branch is private" on https://edge.launchpad.net/~gary/launchpad/zbuildout ?
[21:09] <beuno> yes
[21:09] <maxb> (I'm randomly speculating that it should work the same way as private bugs, since I've never seen a private branch)
[21:09] <beuno> subscribe people
[21:10] <gary_poster> maxb: no
[21:10] <gary_poster> beuno ack thanks
[21:11] <gary_poster> maxb: kinda busy, I'll just add you for now.  what's your account?
[21:11] <maxb> Just maxb, but no rush, it can wait until you can do it properly
[21:11] <maxb> sidnei already pushed a public copy a couple of days ago
[21:12] <gary_poster> maxb: ok cool.  I plan to do it before EOD.  thanks for understanding.  ping me anytime you like
[21:15]  * gmb wishes for a pqm-submit --do-what-i-mean option.
[21:16] <beuno> fsck
[21:16] <beuno> I forgot to use --headless
[21:17] <beuno> gary_poster, do I have any other options than killing it?
[21:17] <gary_poster> beuno: no, sorry
[21:17] <beuno> no problem, stupidity has a price
[21:18] <beuno> in this case, probably about 2usd
[21:42] <gmb> \0/ wgrant becomes the first community contributor to have code landed on devel. Hurrah, etc.
[21:42] <gmb> (at least I think he does)
[21:50] <kfogel> maxb: hey, I noticed you edited the dev.launchpad.net wiki (thanks).  Was it open when you first tried, or did you have to get someone to remove the ACL?
[22:30] <thumper> morning
[22:30] <beuno> hey thumper
[22:30] <mars> morning thumper
[22:30] <beuno> I want to talk to you when you're caffeinated  :)
[22:30] <thumper> I see that pqm is open again
[22:30]  * thumper submits some branches
[22:30]  * mars was just being social
[22:33] <thumper> beuno: what was your bug number for your branch listing oopses?
[22:33] <thumper> hi mars
[22:34] <thumper> beuno: nm
[22:36] <beuno> kai
[22:36] <thumper> beuno: LP looks very sucky in FF 2 on Windows :(
[22:36] <beuno> does it?
[22:36] <beuno> I'll have to take a look and see why
[22:36] <thumper> yep
[22:37] <thumper> sprits :(
[22:37] <thumper> sprites
[22:37] <beuno> really?  they should work fine on FF2, there's no black magic in them
[22:38] <thumper> beuno: we can talk now if you like
[22:38] <thumper> beuno: I have 20 minutes before the standup
[22:38] <beuno> thumper, sounds good
[22:38]  * beuno headphoneses
[22:39] <beuno> thumper, ready
[22:40] <thumper> beuno: my skype is having trouble finding you
[22:40] <thumper> beuno: try to call me
[22:44] <maxb> kfogel: I waited until I noticed an Edit link. I understand it's generally open now.
[22:45] <maxb> I see the front page is locked - presumably to discourage stupidity
[22:48]  * ajmitch wonders why rocketfuel-get is failing now as it tries to get a bzr lock
[22:49] <ajmitch> more specifically, it's only ~/launchpad/lp-sourcedeps//download-cache that's failing to update, saying that it's a readonly transport
[22:51] <wgrant> gmb: Thanks!
[22:54] <EdwinGrubbs> sinzui: we kinda forgot about the weekly meeting.
[22:54] <sinzui> EdwinGrubbs: yeah. We can talk sometime tomorrow about the pickker work
[22:58] <ajmitch> wgrant: as a quick check, are you able to update ~/launchpad/lp-sourcedeps/download-cache ? It doesn't want to update with bzr+ssh for me
[22:59] <wgrant> ajmitch: WFM
[22:59] <ajmitch> bzr+ssh for you?
[23:00] <wgrant> Yep.
[23:00] <ajmitch> interesting, I just get:
[23:00] <ajmitch> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(lp-45197200:///~launchpad/lp-source-dependencies/trunk/.bzr/branchlock): Transport operation not possible: readonly transport
[23:01] <wgrant> What are you trying to do?
[23:01] <ajmitch> Run rocketfuel-get & not have it fail
[23:02] <wgrant> What bzr action gives that error?
[23:03] <ajmitch> bzr up "$LP_DOWNLOAD_CACHE_PATH"
[23:03] <ajmitch> which is ~/launchpad/lp-sourcedeps/download-cache
[23:04] <ajmitch> nothing out of the ordinary there
[23:04] <wgrant> Very odd.
[23:04] <ajmitch> The only thing I can see is that it's a checkout, not a branch
[23:14] <beuno> thumper, I'm filing the "bzr push lp:project" bug anyway, since I can't find it
[23:14] <beuno> unless you can  :)
[23:14] <thumper> beuno: ok
[23:15] <thumper> beuno: we could always dupe it anyway
[23:15] <beuno> yes, free kama
[23:15] <beuno> karma as well
[23:16] <beuno> aha
[23:16] <beuno> bug 181401
[23:16] <ubot3> Malone bug 181401 in launchpad-code "should be able to push to lp:project or lp:project/series to make a new branch" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/181401
[23:16] <mup> Bug #181401: should be able to push to lp:project or lp:project/series to make a new branch <Launchpad Bazaar Integration:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/181401>
[23:16] <mup> Bug #181401: should be able to push to lp:project or lp:project/series to make a new branch <Launchpad Bazaar Integration:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/181401>
[23:16] <mup> Bug #181401: should be able to push to lp:project or lp:project/series to make a new branch <Launchpad Bazaar Integration:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/181401>
[23:17] <beuno> thank you mup
[23:17] <rockstar> Who is in charge of ubot3?  Can we get it disabled?
[23:17] <beuno> done  :)
[23:17] <rockstar> Thank you beuno
[23:18]  * wgrant had better get going on another branch before bigjools clears the queue tonight.
[23:18] <maxb> mup would seem to have a bug too, since it's replying three times when only a person and ubot3 said anything
[23:18] <wgrant> maxb: The third was probably from the URL in ubot3's reply.
[23:19] <maxb> hmm
[23:19] <wgrant> It's reasonable to look for multiple bugs, so I don't think that's a bug.
[23:19] <beuno> it's mentioned 3 times
[23:19] <beuno> once by me
[23:19] <beuno> and twice by ubot3
[23:21] <wgrant> At least ubottu and derivatives have a limit on how often they'll detect a mention of a bug.
[23:25] <wgrant> I can't see how badly I killed buildbot :(
[23:27] <ajmitch> Do you suspect that you may have murdered it?
[23:27] <wgrant> It's the first community contribution, and it's by me, so something has to go wrong.
[23:28] <thumper> wgrant: what do you think has happened?
[23:28] <thumper> wgrant: I don't see anything wrong
[23:29] <wgrant> thumper: Ah, good.
[23:29] <beuno> thumper, any idea how to conditionally display a specific CSS class in TAL?
[23:30] <beuno> as in, always show the tag
[23:30] <thumper> beuno: yes
[23:30] <beuno> but on a condition, display a class
[23:30] <mwhudson> is there a reason the buildbot waterfall is still private btw?
[23:30]  * beuno waits to be enlightened
[23:30] <mars> beuno, eeew, not fun to do in TAL
[23:30] <thumper> mwhudson: not any more
[23:31] <thumper> beuno: well...
[23:31] <thumper> beuno: it depends
[23:31] <wgrant> Particularly in Python 2.4...
[23:31] <beuno> I know it's something like  $condition|something/something
[23:31] <thumper> beuno: you want to use tal:attributes="class ..."
[23:31] <beuno> yes, I got that far
[23:31] <thumper> beuno: got a concrete example for me?
[23:31] <beuno> but blah|blah only returns True/False
[23:32] <beuno> yes
[23:32] <beuno> one sec
[23:32] <mwhudson> beuno: put it on the view
[23:32] <mwhudson> i think returning None will mean not including the attribute at all
[23:32] <beuno>           <label tal:attributes="for widget/name;
[23:32] <beuno>                                  class show_optional|I-want-a-class-here"
[23:32] <beuno>                  tal:content="string:${widget/label}:">Label</label>
[23:33] <beuno> the thing is
[23:33] <mwhudson> or a python: expression, but ewww
[23:33] <beuno> this is the forms macros
[23:33] <beuno> so I could put it in it's view
[23:33] <beuno> but I ahve this right above it:
[23:33] <beuno>         <tal:block tal:condition="display_label|widget/display_label|python:True">
[23:34] <thumper> as mwhudson said, a python tal expression is one way
[23:34] <thumper> or put the classname onto the view itself
[23:35] <mwhudson> beuno: how about you tell us what you're actually trying to do?
[23:35] <mwhudson> (a line that never gets old!)
[23:35] <beuno> ok
[23:35] <beuno> I want for labels on form elements to be bold if they're mandatory
[23:36] <beuno> I somehow feel explaining that won't help
[23:36] <beuno> but there you have it   :)
[23:36] <thumper> tal:define="classname python: "" and show_optional or "someclass""
[23:36] <thumper> no
[23:36] <thumper> actually that is exactly wrong
[23:36] <thumper> :(
[23:36] <wgrant> Sounds like you need Python 2.5.
[23:37] <beuno> I know I've done this before
[23:37] <thumper> switch "someclass" and ""
[23:37] <mwhudson> tal:attributes="class python:[None, 'show_optional'][bool(show_optional)]"
[23:37] <mwhudson> it's horrific, but it'll work
[23:38] <thumper> ick
[23:38] <thumper> that'd need a comment for sure
[23:38] <beuno> UI is fun
[23:38] <mars> tbh, I'd bounce it
[23:38] <mars> put that in the view
[23:38] <mwhudson> beuno: nicer would be widget/fmt:label-css
[23:38] <mwhudson> and some magic in tales.py
[23:38] <beuno> yes, nicer is more expensive than I can afford
[23:39] <thumper> why?
[23:39] <beuno> so I think I'm just not doing it
[23:39] <mwhudson> how is that expensive?
[23:39] <thumper> beuno: get wgrant to write it :)
[23:39] <beuno> I need to start poking in more places, test it, etc
[23:39]  * wgrant fortunately has lectures today.
[23:40] <mwhudson> beuno: you're not very receptive (and this is a good thing!) to "too much work" when you do ui reviews :)
[23:40] <beuno> mwhudson, heh
[23:40] <beuno> which is why I try and do as little code as possible in LP  :)
[23:40] <beuno> I'm a terrible judge for myself
[23:43] <beuno> but somebody has to make forms stop sucking
[23:45] <thumper> beuno: so just DTRT and do it properly :)
[23:46] <mwhudson> beuno: i'm happy to help with coding suggestions, etc
[23:46] <mwhudson> but this is not the place for hacks
[23:47] <beuno> I'm going to wait and see if changing this in forms breaks dozens of tests or not
[23:48] <beuno> and decide based on that if I don't implement that UI feature at all
[23:48] <beuno> I won't hack it in, it's not worth it
[23:48] <beuno> so either DTRT or not doing that change
[23:57] <thumper> mwhudson: how do I ec2test jml's branches without grabbing and pushing them myself?
[23:58] <thumper> mwhudson: is the a convenient param?
[23:58] <mwhudson> thumper: ec2test.py lp:~whatever
[23:58] <thumper> ah fantastic
[23:58] <thumper> mwhudson: I'll test submit jml's branches
[23:58] <mwhudson> thumper: you'll need to supply a submit address somehow if you want to use -s
[23:59] <mwhudson> and submit branch
[23:59] <thumper> mwhudson: ok