[22:59] <CrestedNewt> Turdferguson, I've just had a look in the software centre for 'webcam' and there are a fair few apps that are available
[22:59] <questionaire> jhutchins_wk: yea lot of machines...
[22:59] <TurdFerguson> well in the link you sent, someone suggested this link http://bordet.blogspot.com/2009/01/creative-webcam-live-on-ubuntu-intrepid.html
[23:00] <jhutchins_wk> questionaire: If you're managing a datacenter or a lot of desktops then something like amanda might be a good idea.
[23:00] <tripelb> BillyZane: are you still needing help?
[23:00] <jhutchins_wk> Anyway, I'm off for home.
[23:00] <TurdFerguson> i can't put in a command before opening a prtogram with it if i can't even use it lol
[23:01] <TurdFerguson> k i just tried it with skype and it seems to work
[23:01] <TurdFerguson> but i need that software or else this camera is useless
[23:01] <omistaja> try cheese
[23:01] <questionaire> jhutchins_wk: ok....amanda
[23:02] <CrestedNewt> Turdferguson, you said earlier it was a MS Livecam. itmakes no odds as the important thing here is the Device ID 045e:076d
[23:02] <TurdFerguson> ok
[23:03] <TurdFerguson> i just can't fetch the software from the disc
[23:03] <TurdFerguson> which has been my main question all along
[23:04] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson - software on disk if for a Windows Installation but you want to use it on Ubuntu. It's a bit like putting Diesel into a Petrol car
[23:04] <TurdFerguson> i figured there was some program that could translate it over or something
[23:04] <TurdFerguson> i dunno
[23:05] <TurdFerguson> i shouldn't have ever installed ubuntu lol, this is kinda lame
[23:05] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, you could try and use Wine - look for it in the Software Centre
[23:05] <TurdFerguson> i want to take the time to learn it but it's incompatible with so many things
[23:05] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson - one day you will see the light :D
[23:05] <devnill> ^
[23:06] <goddard> dr_willis: yo
[23:06] <wbf> TurdFerguson, Look at Mint. that has the most drivers
[23:06] <devnill> linux is not windows and if you expect the experience to be the same, it might not be for you
[23:06] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, not at all. I am using Scanners that no longer work with Windows as well as some webcams.
[23:06] <goddard> dr_willis: yo
[23:06] <wbf> devnill, Exactly!
[23:06] <TurdFerguson> not sure i get what wine des by its description
[23:07] <TurdFerguson> yah devnill, got that
[23:07] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, granted re windows experience. Wine allows you to run most windows programs under Linux
[23:07] <devnill> what programs do you want?
[23:07] <devnill> there are a lot of good alternatives
[23:07] <TurdFerguson> ehhh
[23:07] <bond__> Does anybody here know about how to check what is the TCP initial window size taken by ubuntu?
[23:07] <TurdFerguson> is it q4wine?
[23:08] <devnill> games and graphic design are the weak points
[23:08] <questionaire> CrestedNewt: i tried running yahoo messenger under wine but it only crashed ?
[23:08] <devnill> questionaire: can't you use pidgin?
[23:08] <wbf> TurdFerguson, Actually there are some good games like Q3rally
[23:08] <questionaire> am i alone having this problem ?
[23:08] <devnill> steam is getting pretty good
[23:08] <blami> bond__: cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_window_scaling
[23:08] <devnill> open beta!
[23:08] <TurdFerguson> which wine is it?
[23:08] <dr_willis> questionaire:  theres alternatives to  the Official Yahoo Messenger ap0p.
[23:08] <dr_willis> !wine
[23:08] <questionaire> devnill: i tried it for yahoo cam....
[23:09] <devnill> ah
[23:09] <devnill> yeah, i can't help you there
[23:09] <devnill> I use skype :-/
[23:10] <TurdFerguson> yeah it tells me to install "wine" but there is nothing named just "wine"
[23:10] <omistaja> soon everyoneone has to use skype
[23:10] <bond__> blami: tcp_window_scaling has the boolean value, right? How will it then tell the initial window size?
[23:10] <questionaire> dr_willis: suggest alternatives with yahoo cam support
[23:10] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, wait 1 let me find it for you
[23:11] <TurdFerguson> i can send a screenshot of what i see
[23:11] <Basketball> what is pear linux support channel
[23:12] <CrestedNewt> Turdferguson, search for "Wine Windows Program Loader"
[23:12] <TurdFerguson> here's a screenshot of what I see when I type wine http://imagebin.org/242452
[23:12] <skp1> turdferguson. what kind of name is that.
[23:13] <TurdFerguson> a random nickname
[23:13] <TurdFerguson> who gives a damn?
[23:13] <TurdFerguson> so this MIGHT let me get files from windows discs?
[23:13] <CrestedNewt> Turdferguson,5th one down
[23:13] <blami> bond__: ah ... it should be in /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_rmem
[23:13] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson - MIGHT is the right word here
[23:13] <blami> bond__: and /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_wmem respectively
[23:14] <TurdFerguson> excellent
[23:14] <questionaire> devnill: how to install skype on 12.10......doing sudo apt-get install skype is no help
[23:14] <TurdFerguson> thank you
[23:14] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, no probs
[23:14] <blami> bond__: try maybe things changed a little ... it should be mentioned in man tcp
[23:14] <bloony> my gf got a linux mint install.. but it doesnt work to login as her regular user.. I tried logging in as root and resetting her password with passwd, but still no luck.. it shows some shell, but its too quick so I cannot read what it says.. she doesnt update her packages too often so I updated 156 packages just before I rebooted.. how can I debug this?
[23:14] <TurdFerguson> one last question, would this let me install camtasia?
[23:14] <xangua> !partner
[23:14] <xangua> questionaire: did you enable the partner repository¿
[23:14] <xangua> !mint | bloony
[23:14] <bloony> ah ok
[23:14] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, BUT, you will need to get Ubuntu talking to the device first, do you will need the driver
[23:14] <questionaire> xangua: main restricted universe and multiverse are enabled and updated
[23:14] <TurdFerguson> or any other video editing software
[23:15] <TurdFerguson> my cam driver?
[23:15] <bond__> blami: that was my confusion. actually tcp_rmem is the buffer size and some part of it is reserved for application buffer. now the thing is that how to calculate the exact size?
[23:15] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, yes, the cam driver. Also, have you looked at Ubuntu Studio?
[23:16] <questionaire> hmm
[23:16] <TurdFerguson> not yet, is it good?
[23:16] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, lots of video editing stuff built into that distro as well as music
[23:16] <TurdFerguson> ooh
[23:17] <TurdFerguson> is it in the software center or can it be installed by terminal?
[23:17] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, I believe that most of this is available in the Software centre anyway
[23:18] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, I don't know the answer to that I'm afraid. I have it as a distro
[23:18] <TurdFerguson> says here its installed by software image http://ubuntustudio.org/2012/10/ubuntu-studio-12-10-quantal-quentzal-release-notes/
[23:18] <TurdFerguson> that's weird
[23:19] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, I'm not sure but the repositories that the SW Centre points to may be different between Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio - someone else may know
[23:19] <TurdFerguson> hmm
[23:19] <blami> bond__: afaik receiver buffer size determines window size
[23:19] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, that is how I installed it
[23:19] <TurdFerguson> i don't see much for the ubuntu studio in SW center
[23:20] <TurdFerguson> you installed it via cd image?
[23:20] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, but stick to the LTS version as 12:10 may not be stable for what you want it to do.
[23:20] <blami> bond__: I mean the buffer size determines maximal requestable window size
[23:20] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, Download the Image and use "Startup Disk Creator" to write the image to a USB stick. Boot from the USB
[23:21] <blami> bond__: I am pretty sure that kernel doubles rmem_max value to be able to address a slight overhead there
[23:21] <TurdFerguson> can i use a disc instead? don't have a usb stick handy, just an ext hard drive
[23:21] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, I don't see why not, but the process will erase everything on that disk
[23:22] <TurdFerguson> i have blank dvds
[23:22] <TurdFerguson> also, none of these say LTS http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/
[23:22] <bond__> blami: well, the documentation says that tcp_adv_win_scale and tcp_app_win decides the window size. I am having hard time figuring out how.
[23:22] <BillyZane> tripelb: Hi! i'm sorry for leaving, poop time and breakfast. AHhh. that was good
[23:22] <BillyZane> tripelb: yes, i do still need help
[23:22] <blami> bond__: application still can override default (up to rmem_max) using some attribute of setsockopt
[23:22] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, in which case, use a DVD. Use version 12.04
[23:23] <bond__> blami: Thats why i just need to know initial size.
[23:23] <TurdFerguson> hokay
[23:23] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, wouldn't get this help from MS :D
[23:23] <TurdFerguson> probably not
[23:24] <TurdFerguson> without paying an arm and a nut
[23:24] <blami> bond__: but tcp_adv_win_scale is only application portion of window afaik
[23:24] <Alcabradolic> Hello?
[23:25] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, I 'was' a MS specialist and am fed up with how things are going. now I use Ubuntu for mostthings
[23:25] <Alcabradolic> Can somebody please push me in the right direction on choosing a distro for a netbook, not necessarily ubuntu, please.
[23:25] <TurdFerguson> i just need to learn more about it, are there any beginner guides and lessons and things like that?
[23:25] <TurdFerguson> i've seen a few but they're kind of vague to my eyes
[23:26] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, it's a state of mind. Stick with it and you will end up loving it. I haven't looked for any but I'm a tech head anyway
[23:26] <TurdFerguson> holy balls ubuntu studio is 2 gigs
[23:26] <TurdFerguson> gotcha
[23:26] <CrestedNewt> TurdFerguson, good luck!!
[23:26] <wbf> TurdFerguson, that's because UBUNTU studio has over 50 PROGRAMS
[23:26] <Alcabradolic> Turd, what's your interest? Are you producing music, or film?
[23:26] <bond__> blami: yes, for some particular download in some application, the window will always follow slow start, right? thats why we need to include this parameter too.
[23:26] <blami> bond__: anyway you can try it, do a local loop and tcpdump it
[23:27] <blami> bond__: correct
[23:27] <TurdFerguson> it hasn't even downloaded a mb yet, and i have good internet
[23:27] <TurdFerguson> weird
[23:27] <wbf> TurdFerguson, did you know STEAM is for linux now?
[23:27] <TurdFerguson> 9 hours left... lol now 10 hours
[23:28] <CrestedNewt> Alcabradolic - have a look at Puppy Linux - very very low overheads
[23:28] <TurdFerguson> i heard about that yes
[23:28] <wbf> TurdFerguson, I have it. and tf2 runs fast
[23:28] <WanderingEnder> Anyone familiar with using Ubuntu on Azure?
[23:28] <Alcabradolic> Thanks CrestedNewt. I actually tried to install BrowserLinux earlier this evening -- a puplet.
[23:28] <TurdFerguson> sweet
[23:28] <WanderingEnder> I'm specifically wondering if its worth using on the small tier.
[23:28] <WanderingEnder> (1 core, 1.75GB RAM)
[23:28] <CrestedNewt> Alcabradolic - no probs
[23:29] <TurdFerguson> are ubuntu's servers acting up today?
[23:29] <Alcabradolic> I attempted an install from a USB stick to my harddrive, but can't seem to find the necessary files that it needed from the Live CD, namely vmlinuz etc.
[23:29] <bond__> blami: but that wont help if i want to change it. Thats why I am trying to decode rmem into things
[23:29] <TurdFerguson> this thing just went from 5 hours remaining to 20 hours in 5 minutes
[23:29] <Alcabradolic> I've done plenty of Google-Fu, but the clearest answer was "find a USB cd drive" -- which I don't have!
[23:29] <truexfan404> time to disable Java plugins again, this one does affect linux
[23:29] <truexfan404> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/10/us-java-security-idUSBRE90919X20130110
[23:30] <Egon> truexfan404: Yeah, like lfan is to believe
[23:31] <Egon> it it not exactly a reliable source
[23:31] <truexfan404> ah ok
[23:31] <TurdFerguson> i've never had anything download this slowly
[23:31] <blami> bond__: bud rmem only says one thing - a half of receive buffer size
[23:31] <TurdFerguson> ubuntu studio is downloading at 25KB/s in chrome
[23:32] <TurdFerguson> well, never since dial up anyway
[23:32] <CrestedNewt> Turdferguson, don't know. I'm still running US 11.xx can't remember :D
[23:32] <magiK_> wow, I just sudo apt-get xubuntu-desktop this thing flies like the wind.
[23:32] <Egon> TurdFerguson: i have never used chrome, but might i suggest you try a webkit bowser, firefox or even opera
[23:32] <Alcabradolic> Egon, Chrome is a webkit browser ?
[23:32] <Egon> yes and no
[23:33] <bentinata> Do somebody here know how to edit Epiphany?
[23:33] <truexfan404> Egon: do you mean reuters is not a reliable source?
[23:33] <Egon> chrome is at its base the same webkit as safari and konqueror, but they have a different js egngine and lots of more changes
[23:33] <Alcabradolic> Aha. Thanks for the correction.
[23:34] <TurdFerguson> frefox is downloading this thing much faster
[23:34] <TurdFerguson> holy shit
[23:34] <bond__> blami: check 3.3.21 here http://www.frozentux.net/ipsysctl-tutorial/chunkyhtml/tcpvariables.html
[23:34] <Egon> truexfan404: no not at all, i mean that is the same gauy that claimed OSS was dead.
[23:34] <Egon> that particular repoter has his head up his a**
[23:34] <Ziber> Is there an easy way to upgrade to mysql 5.5 on 11.04 server?
[23:35] <Egon> Ziber: mysql PPA
[23:35] <jrib> !11.04 | Ziber
[23:35] <jrib> Ziber: 11.04 is no longer supported, you should upgrade right away
[23:36] <Egon> jrib: does not matter, be kind
[23:36] <jrib> Egon: it certainly matters
[23:36] <Egon> it is not like anyone in here gets payed to support anyways
[23:36] <jrib> Egon: oh.  No, it matters because it means he isn't getting security updates.
[23:36] <Egon> and yes you can upgrade mysql via ppa\s
[23:36] <magiK_> Xubuntu is so much faster,  I'm really impressed with this.
[23:36] <wbf> I gtg gonna play TF2 now
[23:37] <Ziber> how would i use ppas?
[23:37] <Ziber> what is/are ppas anyway?
[23:37] <jrib> Ziber: did you see what I told you about 11.04 no longer being supported? That means you aren't getting security updates for example.  You should upgrade
[23:38] <Ziber> I'm upgrading at the moment...
[23:38] <Ziber> Still a valid question. What is/are PPAs?
[23:38] <Egon> jrib: Does it matter to you? He asked how to uppgrade one particular software package. You answer was the classical arch attitude "upgrade the entire os" Maybe he only need that part to be satisfied.
[23:38] <jrib> Ziber: then take care of upgrading first; you'll likely end up with the mysql version you want
[23:38] <jrib> Egon: I'm informing him that 11.04 is no longer supported.
[23:38] <Ziber> I'm really done putting up with assholes today. :/
[23:39] <Egon> good point, but still.. what he asked is very simple to accomplish without upgrades
[23:39] <BillyZane> me too, damn it, i wish i was in love. sorry
[23:39] <BillyZane> can anyone help me?
[23:39] <BillyZane> not with love, but a ubuntu question
[23:39] <Ziber> So, how to upgrade mysql?
[23:40] <Slart> BillyZane: what's the question?
[23:40] <jrib> Egon: that's fine.  But the point is he is using an unsupported release.  He may not be aware of that.  And if he upgrades to a supported release he may no longer need to worry about his original questsion.
[23:40] <Egon> BillyZane: asking about asking a question is a loop and will never be answered
[23:40] <BillyZane> egon, i asked earlier and it wasn't answered, so.. yeah
[23:40] <BillyZane> but you are right egon
[23:40] <goddard> my system takes 140 seconds to start
[23:40] <goddard> hey can some one help me with this boot chart http://i1337.photobucket.com/albums/o667/Ryein/goddard-G73Jw-quantal-20121203-1_zps93aa7231.png
[23:40] <BillyZane> here is my question: i am a n00b. i want to start learning how to use linux, i mean i am totally clue less
[23:41] <jrib> Ziber: i'm telling you about the support status for your own benefit.  It's dangerous to run an unsupported release because you aren't getting security updates
[23:41] <Egon> BillyZane: what did you ask then? not all of us have littograpichal memory
[23:41] <Bizzeh> hi, i am looking to set up a server at my office. i would like all machines within the office to boot from that server and have the machines have to log in based on a set of login details held on the server. is this possible?
[23:41] <Slart> BillyZane: you need swap if you think you'll run out of memory or if you want to use hibernation.. one partition for the entire system will work nicely.. at least 30 GB or so would be my recommendation for a desktop
[23:41] <jrib> BillyZane: best way to learn is to just use it.  Browse the documentation at help.ubuntu.com.  /msg ubottu cli  if you want to learn the command line
[23:41] <WanderingEnder> Bizzeh, you want them to do what? The first part sounds like you want dumb terminals.
[23:41] <Egon> Bizzeh: remote users? or just remote domain controller_
[23:42] <WanderingEnder> Bizzeh, do you want something like how MS PCs have Single Sign On, they talk to a server for access credentials?
[23:42] <BillyZane> ok, so.. i'll go to help.ubuntu.com, and according to slart, i should install a 30 gig partition to install ubuntu
[23:42] <Bizzeh> WanderingEnder: i dont want the terminals to have anything installed on them, i would like to have a single install that i can modify, which will then reflect along all the other machines
[23:42] <WanderingEnder> BillyZane, have you used a LiveCD yet?
[23:42] <WanderingEnder> OK, so Bizzeh wants a Linux Thin Client deployment.
[23:43] <Bizzeh> there are over 70 computers, doing each pc one by one is more than i can be bothered with now
[23:43] <WanderingEnder> Tell Bizzeh what he's won, bot! (LTSP)
[23:43] <WanderingEnder> !LTSP | Bizzeh
[23:43] <Slart> BillyZane: asking in here is also a good way to learn.. most of the advice given is pretty reasonable =)
[23:44] <WanderingEnder> BillyZane, have you played with a live CD of Ubuntu yet?
[23:44] <Bizzeh> WanderingEnder: already looking on google for thin client ubuntu, seems official docs date back to 5.10 and i assume are massivly out of date, similar to the pxe docs that all require dhcpd3, which isnt a package now
[23:45] <magiK_> This is so awesome, I can use either Unity, GNOME GNOME(Classic), XFCE, Xubuntu(XFCE) wow this is pretty impressive.
[23:45] <CrestedNewt> I'm out - laters guys and girls
[23:45] <WanderingEnder> Bizzeh, extrapolate what you need (dhcpd) off 12.04 LTS and go from there.
[23:46] <WanderingEnder> You need a dhcp server on 12.04, dhcpd3 is no longer shipped, so you'll be configuring the new one that ships.
[23:47] <WanderingEnder> What you want to do is not a small project, Bizzeh, its one for a linux systems administrator who has experience and knowledge setting up servers.
[23:50] <Bizzeh> WanderingEnder: leaning by diving in at the deep end
[23:50] <abdostar> any idea how to buck up the whole system?
[23:54] <Slart> abdostar: buck up as in "harden" or backup?
[23:54] <Ziber> Running apt-get dist-upgrade didn't even... upgrade.
[23:55] <Slart> Ziber: it just upgrades packages to the latest one from the repository it's configured to use
[23:55] <Slart> Ziber: it doesn't upgrade to a new version of the os.. like 11.10 to 12.04
[23:55] <Ziber> mysql is still at 5.1...
[23:57] <keber> tere tegelt on batüskaafi must kast vasakusüdameliste kast ja kosmoselaeva must kast paremasüdameliste kast
[23:57] <huttala> Does anyone here have any experience with AMD APU laptops and ubuntu ?
[23:57] <huttala> Does the drivers work well ?
[23:57] <huttala> I intend to play games on the laptop, so I need the drivers to work properly
[23:58] <jrib> !upgrade | Ziber
[23:58] <jrib> Ziber: that's for upgrading your distribution.  You might also want to check out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades
[23:58] <Ziber> I'm working with ubuntu server, actually
[23:58] <jrib> Ziber: it should include information for server as well


[11:34] <ekimus> hello, any experiences with rsyncing raw devices (hda1 -> hda2) including the bootsector? raid is not an option unfortunately
[12:38] <sacater> if i wanted to allow people to access a /home/storage folder on my computer in my home network. Would i have to enable anything?
[12:39] <sacater> or could someone on my home network do 'ftp #computername'
[01:14] <kupesoft> Hmm, so why aren't the madwifi drivers in the Server kernel?


[12:01] <rock__> Hi. I deployed OpenStack on LXD using https://github.com/openstack-charmers/openstack-on-lxd. I have created "cinder-storagedriver" charm . I pushed the created charm to public charm market place(charm store). So Using JUJU GUI when i was trying to deploy "cinder-storagedriver" charm by adding relation  to "cinder" it was throwing an error.
[12:02] <rock__> ERROR: Relation biarca-openstack:juju-info to cinder:juju-info: cannot add relation   "biarca-openstack:juju-info cinder:juju-info" : principal and subordinate applications' series must match.
[12:02] <rock__> Manually , When I was deployed our charm by taking from charm store then it is able to deploy and able to add relation to cinder.
[12:03] <rock__> But I can able to deploy my charm through juju cli by taking from charm store. And I can able to add relation to cinder successfully.
[12:04] <rock__> sry. As part of debug,  I deployed juju-gui as $juju deploy cs:juju-gui-134 on our setup. But it was showing series as trusty even we have choosen xenial.
[12:04] <rock__> I am thinking this is JUJU-GUI issue.
[12:05] <rock__>  (or) Is it some other issue? Please anyone respond to this issue.


[22:23] <cjwatson> infinity: That rootskel change was indeed the bit we needed, so pushed as well.  Thanks.
[22:24] <cjwatson> And I synced mklibs.


[12:01] <barry> hi everyone.  if i'm not mistaken, it's time once again for our bi-weekly udd stakeholders meeting
[12:01] <barry> #startmeeting
[12:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:01. The chair is barry.
[12:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[12:01] <jelmer> hi barry!
[12:01] <barry> jelmer: hi!
[12:01] <poolie> hi barry, jelmer
[12:01] <barry> hi poolie
[12:01] <barry> do you know if anyone else is joining us today?
[12:02] <barry> well, anyway, let's get started
[12:02] <barry> [TOPIC] agenda
[12:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[12:02] <barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110713
[12:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110713
[12:03] <barry> [TOPIC] action items
[12:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[12:03] <barry>    * jelmer to study the feasibility of merge helper ([[https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr-builddeb/+bug/608675|bug 608675]]) as an intermediate step for quilt support
[12:03] <barry>
[12:04] <jelmer> I've been away for the last week so haven't spent any time on this since
[12:04] <jelmer> at the last meeting (at the rally) we discussed it, and my conclusions there were that it seems feasible and I've started working on implementing it.
[12:05] <barry> jelmer: awesome.  we'll just keep it on for next time
[12:05] <poolie> that's great
[12:05] <barry>    * jelmer to look into [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/udd/+bug/609187|bug 609187]] (warn when package import is out of date)
[12:05] <poolie> there was some discussion recently of this being useful even for non-quilt branches
[12:05] <poolie> hm
[12:05] <poolie> or, more generally, of being able to merge both the patched and unpatched forms
[12:06] <jelmer> jam mentioned on IRC earlier that he's working on bug 609187
[12:06] <poolie> barry, i think jam and others worked on that
[12:06] <poolie> oh, and maxb in london
[12:06] <barry> very nice.  so, in progress?
[12:06] <jelmer> yep
[12:06] <jelmer> should perhaps be owned by jam though?
[12:07] <james_w> hi
[12:07] <maxb> jam has taken my proof of concept "How to talk to LP without launchpadlib" and is pursuing it
[12:07] <barry> sure, i can update that.
[12:07] <poolie> hi maxb
[12:07] <barry> hi maxb
[12:07] <barry> maxb: do you just make straight up http calls?
[12:08] <poolie> the point of avoiding lplib is that it's much faster to just make the single call we care about
[12:08] <poolie> yes
[12:08] <barry> makes sense
[12:08] <maxb> Minimizing roundtrips and costly WADL downloads really matters if we're going to do this interactively
[12:08] <barry> +1
[12:08] <Pendulum>
[12:09] <barry>    * Riddell to file bug saying that packaging branch pages on code.lp.net should be better labeled
[12:09] <barry> anybody know if the bug has been filed?
[12:09] <poolie> istr that he did
[12:09] <jelmer> ... and fixed the bug :)
[12:09] <poolie> and, perhaps he worked on it at the rally
[12:09] <poolie> hooray
[12:10] <barry> yay!
[12:10] <barry> do you happen to have the bug #?
[12:11] <poolie> bug 797688
[12:11] <barry> thanks (you're quicker at searching than me at this hour :)
[12:11] <poolie> i have kanban fu
[12:11] <poolie> http://people.canonical.com/~mbp/kanban/jr-kanban.html
[12:11] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mbp/kanban/jr-kanban.html
[12:11] <poolie> scan down the right hand column until you find it
[12:11] <barry> ah, nice!
[12:12] <poolie> i like it
[12:12] <barry> i didn't realize each person had their own kanban
[12:13] <barry> [TOPIC] package importer progress
[12:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  package importer progress
[12:13] <poolie> yes, there's one aggregated per team and one per person
[12:13] <poolie> let's see
[12:13] <poolie> i think max said some new things started failing
[12:13] <maxb> There does seem to have been a small uptick in the count
[12:13] <poolie> hm, so it stepped down a bit, but now has drifted up
[12:13] <maxb> Besides the append-revisions-only stuff, which I'm taking account of
[12:13] <poolie> back from 400 to 425?
[12:14] <poolie> some of these are AppendRevisionsOnlyViolation which is a recent regression
[12:14] <poolie> so i'm proposing to make this rather more of a priority for the canonical bzr team
[12:14] <maxb> The append-revisions-only stuff accounts for ~25, but I've fixed about ~20 imports in the last 48 hours, which is why were are back at around 400
[12:14] <poolie> putting it at the top of our quarterly planning commitments, and trying to get it below 200 by the start of october
[12:15] <poolie> which would be much faster than our current trend
[12:15] <poolie> thanks max
[12:15] <barry> poolie: that would be amazing
[12:15] <jelmer> I've made some progress on support for multiple upstream tarballs, which isn't finished yet but should help a bit too.
[12:15] <poolie> oh, that's great
[12:15] <maxb> One thing is that there seems to be a gradual uptick in the number of packages using multiple upstream tarballs. That's also the top single failure cause at the moment
[12:16] <maxb> Another thing to consider is that quite a number of the failures are failures during the generation of merge preview diffs - *not* the import itself
[12:16] <maxb> A subcategory of those are, I believe, being addressed by a bugfix of vila's
[12:17] <poolie> why does it generate merge preview diffs?
[12:17] <maxb> I'm guessing because james_w thought it would be useful?
[12:17] <maxb> I doubt many people know they exist.
[12:17] <maxb> http://package-import.ubuntu.com/merges/
[12:17] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://package-import.ubuntu.com/merges/
[12:18] <james_w> I started generating them as a test
[12:18] <poolie> hi james
[12:18] <james_w> but never followed it through to be the replacement for merges.ubuntu.com
[12:18] <james_w> hi
[12:18] <poolie> huh
[12:18] <barry> james_w: hi.  i didn't know that existed either
[12:18] <poolie> so, what shall we do
[12:19] <poolie> perhaps we should move it out of line so that it doesn't cause failure of the actual package import?
[12:19] <maxb> I estimate ~44 failures are in the merge generation. They are probably legitimate bzrlib bugs
[12:20] <maxb> I think we should be mindful of that possibility, but see how many of the failures are cleared up by vila's NoFinalPath bugfix before investing time
[12:20] <james_w> that seems to be a fair number of them
[12:21] <jelmer> Merges are one of the goals of the UDD branches, so it seems useful to keep it in.
[12:21] <james_w> given no-one is using the output currently it wouldn't really cost anything to delete the code
[12:21] <barry> or maybe comment it out for now?
[12:22] <poolie> ok, well, now i know it's there :)
[12:22] <barry> :)
[12:22] <poolie> i agree with max, let's see how it goes with current in progress work landed, and then we can think about pruning it
[12:22] <poolie> or, alternatively, at least linking to ti
[12:22] <barry> +1
[12:23] <barry> so, not really on the agenda, but i see lp and bzr got updated last night?  how'd that go?
[12:23] <poolie> it was a bit bumpy
[12:23] <barry> dang
[12:23] <barry> but everything worked out?
[12:23] <poolie> since we went several revisions forward, and there were some bad interactions between changes in bzr and in bzr-svn when importing large branches
[12:24] <poolie> we are having a postmortem thread at the moment
[12:24] <poolie> to try to understand what happened
[12:24] <poolie> but i think it will be ok
[12:24] <barry> cool.  i'm on the mlist so i'll follow along
[12:24] <poolie> we will make it safer to deploy and roll back, and then deploy more often
[12:24] <poolie> similar to the approach being taken with other bits of lp
[12:25] <poolie> and speaking of which, can i just say how much i'm looking forward to their new shorter upgrade windows
[12:25] <poolie> (https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-dev/msg07623.html but it's a bit offtopic)
[12:25] <poolie> jelmer, can you tell us about what this is likely to change with imports?
[12:26] <jelmer> poolie: Can you rephrase that, do you mean the vcs imports?
[12:27] <poolie> yes
[12:27] <barry> also, what are the top-level user visible changes we'll see in bzr/udd/codehosting now?
[12:27] <poolie> we can hope to see more of them succeed after the lp upgrade?
[12:28] <jelmer> poolie: What was the recent lp upgrade from last night barry was referring to exactly?
[12:28] <poolie> there should be a big new feature in lp which is showing diffs inline in the branch pages
[12:28] <poolie> lp had an upgrade outage today (australian time)
[12:28] <poolie> hm
[12:28] <poolie> perhaps we should get our story straight offline :)
[12:28] <barry> that will be *awesome*
[12:28] <poolie> and then post something on the lp blog about user visible changes, if any
[12:29] <barry> poolie: +1, can i give you that action?
[12:29] <poolie> actually could i put that on jelmer, since he landed the change iirc
[12:30] <poolie> the inline content feature is http://people.canonical.com/~andrew/Inline-diff-screenshot.png
[12:30] <poolie> not landed yet
[12:30] <barry> [ACTION] jelmer to post summary of user visible changes with lp rollout
[12:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  jelmer to post summary of user visible changes with lp rollout
[12:30] <jelmer> I haven't caught up on all that email yet, but I'd be happy to take an action item about the post-morten analysis
[12:30] <jam> poolie: that specific screenshot is for merge proposal pages
[12:30] <poolie> true
[12:30] <jam> danilo's change was for Branch pages, which I certainly don't see, but I don't know whether or not his expander code has landed.
[12:30] <poolie> i think the code changes proposed now may only touch mp pages but we should be able to follow through and show stuff on the branch too
[12:31] <poolie> jelmer so i guess there's two things to follow on, one is the postmortem (what went wrong) and the other is the feature announcement, if any (what will go right)
[12:31] <poolie> i had the idea that the updated bzr-git etc are going to help a lot more branch imports complete
[12:31] <poolie> am i confused?
[12:32] <jelmer> I haven't landed anything related to the expander code
[12:32] <jelmer> I do have a fix for having bzr-svn deal with tags better (not use so much memory), but IIRC I haven't proposed that for landing on lp yet
[12:33] <poolie> didn't you land several updates into lp when we were at the rally?
[12:35] <poolie> perhaps we should move on; this isn't really udd specific
[12:35] <maxb> I have something I'd like people to have a think about: What are we going to do about developer-maintained package branches, which don't use upstream-* tags because they merge directly from upstream's bzr, and thus the UDD importer always fails on currently? I'm thinking of, e.g. apport
[12:35] <jelmer> (sorry, looking through the revision log atm..)
[12:35] <barry> poolie: okay
[12:35] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Get rid of `bzr mark-uploaded` ?
[12:35] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Get rid of `bzr mark-uploaded` ?
[12:35] <jelmer> taking that offline (in the post-mortem thread perhaps?) might indeed be better
[12:36] <Riddell> hi, sorry I'm late
[12:36] <barry> so, if i'm not mistaken, mark-uploaded is more or less unnecessary now, right?
[12:37] <jelmer> somewhat; debcommit -r will tag too and "bzr tag" without argument can also behave the same way as mark-uploaded
[12:37] <Riddell> hmm, I was hoping to get away from using debcommit
[12:37] <barry> jelmer: what does mark-uploaded do that bzr tag or debcommit doesn't?
[12:38] <barry> i guess there are two things leading these questions: whether to change the udd documentation to just use bzr tag, and whether to actually deprecate or get rid of the command?
[12:38] <jelmer> barry: I don't think there's anything it does that bzr tag doesn't, other than perhaps being a bit more clearly named
[12:39] <barry> jelmer: cool.  any objections to me changing the udd docs to use tag instead?
[12:39] <poolie> james_w ^?
[12:39] <barry> Riddell: i'd like to get away from recommending debcommit too
[12:39] <james_w> not really
[12:40] <poolie> i wonder if bzr builddeb could instead hook into the tag command (through adding a hook, not in some gross way) to give people policy checks?
[12:40] <james_w> probably worth a note that if bzr says that they have to give a tag name they need a newer bzr/bzr-builddeb, or their bzr-builddeb is incorrectly installed
[12:40] <poolie> if those checks are seen as useful
[12:41] <barry> james_w: good idea
[12:41] <barry> [ACTION] barry to update udd docs to use `bzr tag` instead of `bzr mark-uploaded`
[12:41] <MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to update udd docs to use `bzr tag` instead of `bzr mark-uploaded`
[12:41] <poolie> barry i suggested Riddell might put his packaging background to use in working on the packaging guide with yourself and daniel
[12:42] <Riddell> yes, I'm working my way through it fixing things and working out what's missing or not clear
[12:42] <poolie> great
[12:42] <barry> Riddell: fantastic.  you can add me as a reviewer for any mp
[12:42] <poolie> shall we talk about max's question?
[12:42] <barry> Riddell: do you want to take the above action instead of me?
[12:42] <ScottK> Riddell: Does that include non-UDD packaging?
[12:42] <Riddell> barry: yes can do
[12:43] <poolie> hi scott
[12:43] <barry> [ACTION] Riddell to update udd docs to use `bzr tag` instead of `bzr mark-uploaded`
[12:43] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to update udd docs to use `bzr tag` instead of `bzr mark-uploaded`
[12:43] <barry> poolie: yes, let's take up maxb's question
 I have something I'd like people to have a think about: What are we going to do about developer-maintained package branches, which don't use upstream-* tags because they merge directly from upstream's bzr, and thus the UDD importer always fails on currently? I'm thinking of, e.g. apport
[12:43] <Riddell> ScottK: I'd like to discuss that with dholbach, it needs quite a lot of changes to include non-UDD bits and I don't know if he has thought about how to do that (but essentially i'm working on it from a bzr developer perspective so no)
[12:44] <ScottK> That's one of the guide's biggest problems at the moment.
[12:44] <Riddell> ScottK: but the guide should either be renamed or fixed for that
[12:44] <ScottK> Agreed.
[12:44] <Riddell> yep
[12:44] <barry> ScottK: yep
[12:44] <jelmer> maxb: It would seem reasonable to just directly tag the upstream versions with upstream-X if they have the same contents
[12:46] <poolie> by detecting there's a revision identical to the orig.tgz?
[12:47] <jelmer> either by detecting or having some place where the upstream tag algorithm is specified
[12:47] <maxb> So perhaps the way forward is to discuss with the packagers of those packages how much they are willing to tweak their workflow for UDD compatibility
[12:47] <poolie> can we do something towards recognizing the actual tag in the upstream branch?
[12:47] <poolie> there very likely is one, istm
[12:47] <poolie> right
[12:47] <jelmer> bzr-builddeb already has a config variable export-upstream-revision which can be set to the tag pattern for finding upstream versions
[12:48] <poolie> maxb, what kind of tweaks?
[12:49] <jelmer> e.g. "export-upstream-revision = tag:bzr-svn-$UPSTREAM_VERSION" as bzr-svn's tagging algorithm uses the tag name "bzr-svn-1.0a" for version "1.0a"
[12:50] <jelmer> The proper place to store that sort of information would be in Launchpad's release information I think
[12:50] <poolie> that would be useful in other places
[12:50] <poolie> for instance automatically presenting the releases in the ui and ws
[12:50] <maxb> As in, potentially making use of "bzr merge-upstream", or setting tags manually
[12:52] <barry> it's getting late, so let's move on
[12:52] <barry> [TOPIC] bugs of interest
[12:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  bugs of interest
[12:52] <barry> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~mbp/kanban/canonical-bazaar-kanban.html
[12:52] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mbp/kanban/canonical-bazaar-kanban.html
[12:52] <poolie> good idea
[12:52] <barry> anything in particular to point out?
[12:53] <poolie> i plan to stop the package importer pretending to be james tomorrow
[12:53] <barry> nice :)
[12:53] <poolie> lots of bugs there
[12:53] <poolie> moving across
[12:54] <poolie> jelmer it looks like you should do a bzr-svn release
[12:54] <poolie> barry, james, maxb, is there anything especially biting you, or that you think especially needs attention?
[12:54] <jam> barry: [LINK] lp:///~jameinel/bzr/2.2-is-up-to-date
[12:54] <jelmer> poolie: I agree; the tags memory usage issue is the main thing that's blocking that at the moment.
[12:54] <jam> [LINK] lp:///~jameinel/bzr/2.2-is-up-to-date
[12:54] <MootBot> LINK received:  lp:///~jameinel/bzr/2.2-is-up-to-date
[12:55] <poolie> jam, what is that?
[12:55] <jam> I just added a "Branch.open" hook
[12:55] <jam> so that doing "bzr info lp:ubuntu/bzr" tells you if the branch is up-to-date
[12:55] <poolie> oh i see
[12:55] <poolie> great
[12:55] <barry> poolie: atm, nope. things are going well
[12:55] <poolie> we need to try again with a 2.3.4 sru into natty
[12:55] <poolie> ok
[12:55] <poolie> it's getting late here for sure
[12:55] <poolie> next?
[12:56] <jam> http://paste.ubuntu.com/643225/
[12:56] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/643225/
[12:56] <barry> [TOPIC] aob
[12:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  aob
[12:56] <barry> just one small note: poolie the meeting 2 weeks from now is at the wrong time i think
[12:56] <jam> barry: I think that goes with the earlier action item (that I missed), for checking if import branches are up-to-date
[12:56] <poolie> yes, it does, that's nice
[12:57] <barry> jam: thanks
[12:57] <poolie> ok
[12:57] <barry> jam: that looks great
[12:57] <poolie> so we're going to keep it at the same time as today?
[12:57] <barry> poolie: if that worked for you guys.  it was much better for me ;)
[12:58] <jam> wfm, poolie is the one most impacted by it
[12:58] <poolie> ok
[12:58] <poolie> thanks everyone for coming, especially maxb
[12:58] <barry> okay, with that...
[12:59] <barry> #endmeeting
[12:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:59.
[12:59] <barry> thanks everyone
[12:59] <jelmer> thanks barry :)
[15:03] <mvo> hello
[15:03] <ev> hiya
[15:04] <jhunt_> ...././.-../.-../---
[15:04]  * slangasek waves
[15:04] <cjwatson> ..-. .. ... ....
[15:04] <slangasek> heh
[15:05] <barry> huzzah!
[15:05] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[15:05] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is slangasek.
[15:05] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:05] <slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
[15:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  lightning round
[15:05] <slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko csurbhi stgraber jhunt mvo ev vorlon bdmurray)
[15:05] <slangasek> and... go
[15:05] <slangasek> bdmurray ev jhunt barry csurbhi stgraber cjwatson vorlon doko mvo
[15:05] <slangasek> bdmurray:
[15:05] <mvo> last again!
[15:05] <bdmurray> bug work
[15:05] <bdmurray> bug triage of ubiquity bug reports with SQUASHFS errors, fsys-tarfile-error apport package bug report cleanup, incompletion of ubiquity    install failures due to oom, FTBFS bug report modifications, added bug reporting guidelines for ubuntu-meta, crichton function to deal     with package-install-segfault bug reports, wrote a bug pattern for update-initramfs failures on Live Media and wrote a wiki page to point  people at
[15:06] <bdmurray> community stuff/work
[15:06] <bdmurray> review and approval of 2 new Ubuntu Bug Control members, added in iso-testing bug reports to the package status pages, udw class prep and  presentation regarding working with apport bugs
[15:06] <psurbhi> o/
[15:06] <bdmurray> development work
[15:06] <bdmurray> update-manager apport hook SRU update and new merge proposal for oneiric, branch adding casper version to apport bug reports from live     media, updated ubiquity apport package hook to ask permission before adding debug log and block SQUASHFS error bug reports, patch pilot    day (fixed pm-utils failed to inhibit suspend bug, 665651 which revealed a bug in toshset which caused suspend to fail), bzr branch for    unattended-upgrades and messag
[15:06]  * slangasek waves to psurbhi
[15:06] <mvo> \o/ for u-m
[15:06] <bdmurray> done
[15:08] <ev> - More fighting over desk space. Now resolved! I'm officially a Millbank-based
[15:08] <ev>   employee from here on out. Yay.
[15:08] <ev> - integrating Wubi builds into cdimage. Should be working just as soon as
[15:08] <ev>   LP: #807974 gets fixed.
[15:08] <ev> - Further work on the IronPython Wubi test. I now have an executable bundle
[15:08] <ev>   that displays a WebKit view (of the people.ubuntu.com slideshow).
[15:08] <ev>   It's 8,751 KB, but I think I can further trim that down some. It's roughly:
[15:08] <ev>   7-zip's SFX header, a small configuration file, and an LZMA archive
[15:08] <ev>   concatenated together.  In the LZMA archive is the IronPython DLLs (3.32
[15:08] <ev>   MB), the Chromium Embedded Framework DLLs (25.7 MB), CefSharp DLLs (293 KB),
[15:08] <ev>   and the application bytecode (.NET) and libraries (12.6 KB). I'm going to
[15:08] <ev>   stick an address bar on this and deliver it to The Team to use for Wubi
[15:08] <ev>   slideshow development.
[15:08] <ev> - Looking into writing a small C++ wrapper around the front of our .NET
[15:08] <ev>   application to download and install the .NET 2.5 runtime when it's not
[15:08] <ev>   present on the system, rather than just letting Windows throw up an obtuse
[15:08] <ev>   error dialog.
[15:08] <ev> - Trying to target an IronPython build for .NET 2/3.5.
[15:08] <ev> - Developer Experience Community of Practice call.
[15:08] <ev> - Stuck recovering my work from home laptop using the black magic of grub2's
[15:08] <ev>   loop mounting code (hooray for having a spare ISO lying around in /home).
[15:08] <ev>   Any thoughts on writing a copy of the installation ISO to the filesystem
[15:08] <ev>   during installation and wiring it into grub such that if everything goes to
[15:08] <ev>   hell, the user has something to boot into. Or should we do the ChromiumOS
[15:08] <ev>   A and B boot branch thing instead?
[15:09] <ev> - Finished the PyGI port of SegmentedBar and nearly done with the timezone
[15:09] <ev>   map. Ran headfirst into GdkPixbuf.get_pixels() being hideously broken in
[15:09] <ev>   PyGI, blocking the finishing of the timezone port. Spent a lot of time
[15:09] <ev>   digging through the PyGI source looking for the best way to solve this in
[15:09] <ev>   this brave new world, proposed an approach to tomeu, and may have a solution
[15:09] <ev>   soon.
[15:09] <ev> - Helped the web team again with the Launchpad API, further modifying the
[15:09] <ev>   script I wrote for them to generate reports of what bugs they fixed to work
[15:09] <ev>   with date ranges.
[15:09] <ev> - Call with Steve on the plan for Wubi, and the hiring of a Windows developer.
[15:09] <ev> - Chat with Francis on our plans for the crash database. He's going to circle
[15:09] <ev>   back with Rob and then presumably continue the discussion on the existing
[15:09] <ev>   mail thread.
[15:09] <ev> - Started writing unit tests for gtkwidgets in ubiquity and a harness that
[15:09] <ev>   plays nice with the GTK main loop and the weird fact that PyGI raises
[15:09] <ev>   exceptions in a different thread of execution, thus they don't bubble up
[15:09] <ev>   around Gtk.main. I know, awesome, right?
[15:09] <ev> - Had to do some running around and paperwork for signing up to Canonical's
[15:09] <ev>   implementation of the cycle to work scheme.
[15:09] <ev> - More work on the wireless page for ubiquity. Implemented passphrase
[15:09] <ev>   handling.
[15:09] <slangasek> bdmurray: I think your line truncated; "unattended-upgrades and messag[...]"
[15:09] <ev> TODO:
[15:09] <ev> - Objectives. Eep.
[15:09] <ev> - Get hardware expensed for ubiquity testing in the datacenter.
[15:09] <ev> (done)
[15:09] <doko> ev: how much are charged for the desk? ;p
[15:10] <bdmurray> "bzr branch for unattended-upgrades and messages during shutdown, apt branch blocking of fsys tarfile error package install failures"
[15:10] <jhunt_> Raised MP to revert dokos gcc+armel change for libnih. Worked with
[15:10] <jhunt_> hallyn to find a resolution for bug 495394. Reviewed marrusl's
[15:10] <jhunt_> material for UDw. Some progress on Upstart disabling jobs feature.
[15:10] <jhunt_> Reviewed documentation changes for psurbhi's Upstart initramfs branch.
[15:10] <jhunt_> Worked through initramfs setup steps for Upstart and discussed with
[15:10] <jhunt_> psurbhi. Started to look at bug 436936 (again). Made some good
[15:10] <jhunt_> progress but then switched to bug 807293 which I am currently looking
[15:10] <jhunt_> at.
[15:10] <jhunt_> ./-./-..
[15:10] <ev> doko: I think you pay cvd in endless thank yous and one appears
[15:10] <barry> rebuilding main dev machine (still need to restore pbuilder/sbuild/vms) - been filing bugs like mad; bug 806661 (python-imaging needs to be multiarch aware); bug 806744 (lazr.smtptest testing); looked at bug 212370 (coretemp kernel module) but need to come back to it; pep382 lively discussion on mlist and code reviews; patch pilot (see ubuntu-devel@); developer experience CoP; lead UDW session on dh_python2; UDD stakeholders meeting;
[15:10] <barry> this week: work on lts ppa, continue on bug 788514; done.
[15:10] <barry>
[15:13] <slangasek> barry: sorry I missed the UDD stakeholders meeting yet again; it's creeping towards the time of day that I can make it, but I had an 11pm call last night so 5am was going to be a little rough :)
[15:13] <slangasek> psurbhi: your turn
[15:13] <barry> slangasek: no worries ;)
[15:13] <psurbhi> *) working on making a ppa of initramfs, upstart and mountall - testing the install scripts, updated mkinitramfs and update-initramfs.
[15:13] <psurbhi> *) done.
[15:14] <slangasek> and learning about the evils of NSS in initramfses...
[15:14] <slangasek> stgraber is on vacation this week
[15:14] <psurbhi> :) yeah !
[15:14] <slangasek> cjwatson:
[15:15]  * stgraber waves
[15:15] <stgraber> and gets back to doing non Ubuntu stuff :)
[15:15] <cjwatson> hah, yeah, I remember discovering the fun of NSS in reduced systems when doing openssh-server-udeb a while back
[15:15] <cjwatson> Spent most of this week so far working on Launchpad, with mvo's help from the apt/python-apt side:
[15:15] <cjwatson>  * My dpkg-xz-support branch from last year will be ready to go once apt and python-apt SRUs land in lucid-updates.
[15:15] <cjwatson>  * My multiarch-translations branch probably still needs a bit more code review, but it's had a DB review and I believe the necessary apt change is due to go in as an SRU.  Unfortunately, I think the Launchpad downtime schedule is such that this may not actually land in production until a day or two after feature freeze.  Perhaps we should go ahead with the installer change to activate multiarch anyway, since the ...
[15:15] <cjwatson> ... Launchpad work is "only" a bandwidth reduction exercise?
[15:15] <cjwatson>  * Good news: it only took about half a day to set up a Launchpad development VM, and most of that was waiting for downloads.  It's not as hard as I remember it being.
[15:16] <cjwatson> Working on mountall for /run transition, with Steve.  Will review Surbhi's stop-timer branch again once that transition is unstuck.
[15:16] <cjwatson> Kicked off preliminary CD building for 10.04.3.
[15:16] <cjwatson> Working on apt-setup error handling in the case of a non-downloadable local repository key (bug 728710).
[15:16] <cjwatson> Launchpad branch to add Lubuntu tasks has landed, so I'll be working on getting Lubuntu CDs going once we can debootstrap again.
[15:16] <cjwatson> Almost done with home plumbing problems saga of doom, at long last \o/
[15:16] <cjwatson> --
[15:16] <psurbhi> cjwatson, thanks !
[15:16] <psurbhi> i am waiting for the mountall review !
[15:16] <psurbhi> :)
[15:16] <cjwatson> sorry that's taken so long :-/
[15:16] <slangasek> activate multiarch anyway> that seems fair to do now and give a bandwidth hit since it only affects those using the dev release
[15:16] <psurbhi> np
[15:16] <slangasek> as long as we're confident we'll have it really really fixed by beta :)
[15:17] <cjwatson> yeah, the branch is not that painful
[15:17] <cjwatson> although I don't actually have figures for how much it cuts
[15:17] <cjwatson> I should work on that
[15:17] <cjwatson> OK then, I'll pull the switch in the installer if I can say you told me to do it :-)
[15:18] <mvo> what could possible go wrong?
[15:18]  * slangasek gets the asbestos longjohns out of storage
[15:18] <cjwatson> you had them in storage?
[15:18] <slangasek> global warming
[15:18] <cjwatson> you've been away from platform too long
[15:18] <slangasek> heh
[15:18] <slangasek> my turn
[15:18] <slangasek> this week has pretty much been eaten up with bug #807974, development-wise
[15:19] <slangasek> started my long heart-to-heart with the initscripts merge on Friday... been working on it since
[15:19] <slangasek> should actually be in a position to upload initscripts+mountall later today
[15:19] <slangasek> if someone were to have a look at debianutils and see whether we should merge it from unstable, that would knock one prereq off my list
[15:20] <cjwatson> I can do that
[15:20] <slangasek> thanks :)
[15:20] <slangasek> nothing else to report here
[15:20] <slangasek> doko:
[15:21] <doko> - updates and merges: binutils, gcc-4.6, gcc-4.5, gcc-4.4, gcj-4.5
[15:21] <doko> - python 3.2.1 release
[15:21] <doko> - openjdk-7 and openjdk-6 updates, build fixes for powerpc and armel (and sparc)
[15:21] <doko> - some other merges and syncs
[15:21] <doko> - just one MIR
[15:21] <doko> - new installation on a toshiba ac100 (armel)
[15:21] <doko> - integrated some GCC patches upstream
[15:21] <doko> - GCC bug triage
[15:21] <doko> rebuild test not yet launched
[15:21] <doko> done
[15:22] <mvo> software-center: debug/fix hang in piston helper, fix pyflakes issues, SRU for maverick/natty to obstrufucate private PPA details from the log, add some gtk3 specific tests
[15:22] <mvo> apt/python-apt: signature verification work, improve support for compression in python-apt and avoid code duplicatoin, lucid-proposed backport of long-description splitout and xz-compression,
[15:22] <mvo> debdelta: setup prototype for securty deltas on macaroni, waiting for IS for a role-account and a final place, send some patches to debdelta upstream
[15:22] <mvo> software-properties: work on dbus/polkit backend code based on apacheloggers branch, add tests for all the dbus methods (backend now mostly there)
[15:22] <mvo> update-manager: merge gtk3/pygi/gsettings branch, fix tests and upload
[15:22] <mvo> misc: debug/fix upgrade issue with doc-base  (#781076), debug/fix lp-extract-changelogs hang, apt-btrfs-snapshot: fix crash when fstab misses some entries, upload new version, merged gparted, played with livebuild as replacement for ubuntu-vm-builder that the server team wants to deprecate
[15:22] <mvo> EOF
[15:23] <mvo> cjwatson: what do you reckon would it take to write a wrapper that has a similar "ui" as ubuntu-vm-builder, i.e. "ubuntu-vm-builder-using-live-build kvm lucid" and it would build a minimal qcow2 image? or does that not make much sesne at all?
[15:24] <cjwatson> mvo: it's not too hard, make an auto directory and symlink canned config/build/clean scripts into it the way livecd-rootfs does, then call lb config and lb build
[15:24] <cjwatson> mvo: and either patch live-build to add facilities you need (and forward them to Debian, please) or else add hooks in your build wrapper
[15:25] <mvo> cjwatson: that sounds encouraging, I assume I can make it output a raw image that I can then covert to qcow2? or does it do qcow2 natively?
[15:26] <cjwatson> mvo: no native support.  there are various image output options, you should be able to bodge one of them into a useful form yes
[15:26] <cjwatson> 'man lb config'
[15:26] <mvo> great, thanks
[15:27] <slangasek> thanks
[15:27] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Oneiric bugz
[15:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric bugz
[15:27] <slangasek> new topic!
[15:28] <cjwatson> you can probably just use '--binary-images none' or something and do it by hand
[15:28] <bdmurray> I just wanted to mention a couple of bugs that have come to light in the past week
[15:28] <slangasek> bdmurray and I were talking this past week about bug tracking for the release, and the conclusion was that it would be useful to have a slot during the weekly meeting to talk about the status of any bugs that might be lingering
[15:28]  * slangasek yields the floor to bdmurray :)
[15:29] <bdmurray> bug 807636 was found while isotesting
[15:29] <cjwatson> I wondered why you assigned that to mvo
[15:29] <cjwatson> though I don't mind if mvo wants it :)
[15:29] <bdmurray> cjwatson: I think it was rather early for me
[15:29] <cjwatson> ah, yeah, you undid that latere
[15:30] <bdmurray> bug 806574 is a regression and targetted to Oneiric
[15:30] <mvo> *puhhh* for a moment I was scared ;)
[15:30] <barry> bdmurray: i'll take that one
[15:31] <bdmurray> barry: great, thanks
[15:31] <bdmurray> and then bug 806543 also found during iso testing
[15:31] <bdmurray> er 806453
[15:31] <bdmurray> bug 806453
[15:32] <slangasek> bdmurray: that's a duplicate of the bug pitti just uploaded for
[15:32] <slangasek> tied to the /run transition
[15:32] <slangasek> bug #807306
[15:33] <bdmurray> slangasek: okay great
[15:34] <bdmurray> what about bug 791134? should it be fixed with pitti's upload too?
[15:34] <slangasek> that bug number looks wrong for it to be a duplicate
[15:34] <slangasek> too old, this issue was just introduced last Thursday
[15:35] <slangasek> oh, wait
[15:35] <slangasek> Debian/sid - so that was the same bug, but in Debian :)
[15:35] <cjwatson>   * Compatibility symbolic links are relative, not absolute.  e.g.
[15:35] <cjwatson>     /var/lock is ../run/lock rather than /run/lock.  This means that if
[15:35] <cjwatson>     you're using a chroot from the host system, you'll always be using
[15:35] <cjwatson>     locations in the chroot, rather than the host, when following the
[15:35] <cjwatson>     links.
[15:35] <bdmurray> right and I just (yesterday) ran into it with oneiric
[15:35] <cjwatson> sysvinit 2.88dsf-13.5
[15:36] <cjwatson> hm, except:
[15:36] <cjwatson>         # Create absolute symlink if not already present.  This is to
[15:36] <cjwatson>         # upgrade from older versions which created relative links,
[15:36] <cjwatson>         # which are not permitted in policy between top-level
[15:36] <cjwatson>         # directories.
[15:36] <cjwatson> so I'm confused
[15:36] <cjwatson> ah yes
[15:36] <cjwatson>   * Revert to using absolute paths in compatibility symlinks in order
[15:36] <cjwatson>     to comply with Policy §10.5 symlink rules. (Closes: #626263)
[15:36] <cjwatson> I guess sbuild needs to cope then?
[15:37] <slangasek> ah, fun
[15:37] <slangasek> I had assumed rleigh knew what he was doing and was going to stick with the not-quite-policy symlinks on purpose
[15:37] <cjwatson> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=626826
[15:37] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=626826
[15:38] <cjwatson> so we should either merge sbuild, or cherry-pick that change
[15:39] <slangasek> any volunteers to take that merge?
[15:39] <cjwatson> maybe somebody who uses sbuild could do that?
[15:39]  * cjwatson doesn't
[15:39] <barry> i do
[15:39] <slangasek> winner
[15:39] <barry> slangasek: fsvo
[15:40] <barry> is there an lp bug for that?
[15:40] <bdmurray> okay those 3 bugs were all I had for this week - the sbuild one was just something I happened to remember
[15:40] <bdmurray> barry: bug 791134
[15:40] <slangasek> barry: assigned to you, summary comment added
[15:41] <barry> cool
[15:41] <slangasek> barry: ideally we would SRU this as well, for the benefit of anyone who might actually want to use sbuild for building in chroots for a different release than the one they're running :)
[15:41] <cjwatson> ev: could you take the ubiquity console expander bug bdmurray pointed out?
[15:41] <barry> i'll be rebuilding my sbuild environment today, so it'll be a good time to look at it ;/
[15:41] <ev> yup
[15:41] <cjwatson> ta
[15:41] <slangasek> barry: ah, then you'll have ample opportunity to confirm the bug :-)
[15:42] <ev> though I wont touch it until FF. It's not a critical bug, as far as I can tell
[15:42] <cjwatson> no, medium (I think correctly)
[15:42] <ev> indee
[15:42] <ev> d
[15:42]  * slangasek eyes the daily dist-upgrade, getting wedged on sun-java downloads that don't want to complete
[15:43] <slangasek> bdmurray: that all the bugs?
[15:43] <slangasek> um.  worse than "don't want to complete", I just saw the download counter roll backwards
[15:43] <slangasek> mvo: I think I have an update-manager bug to report ;)
[15:43] <bdmurray> slangasek: well not *all* the bugs but the ones that appeared on my radar this week
[15:44] <slangasek> bdmurray: :)
[15:44] <slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
[15:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[15:44] <ev> slangasek: so, out of random curiosity, what are your thoughts on using the Windows NT PAM module in, say, Wubi?
[15:44] <mvo> slangasek: *ick* it rolls *backwards* ?
[15:44]  * ev ducks
[15:44] <slangasek> mvo: yes, it went from 'Downloaded 25.1 MB of 28.7 MB' to 'Dowloaded 24.8 MB of 28.7 MB'
[15:44] <slangasek> mvo: it is now at 'Downloaded 33.1 MB of 28.7 MB' :)
[15:45] <slangasek> 33.4 ... 33.5 ... 33.6 ... 33.5....
[15:45] <slangasek> 33.1...
[15:45] <mvo> hahaa, woah
[15:45] <slangasek> now it's finally decided it's finished :-)
[15:45] <mvo> that is on a amd64, right?
[15:45] <slangasek> ev: so, ah, I would defer to the security team on this
[15:45] <slangasek> mvo: yep
[15:45] <ev> slangasek: well played
[15:46] <ev> it's seemingly the only thing standing between me and single click wubi installations.
[15:46] <ev> so I'm just toying around with the idea
[15:46] <slangasek> ev: there should be an analysis of whether the default hashes used by Windows there are as strong as what we get by default with pam_smbpasswd, which we *do* pull in by default whenever filesharing is turned on
[15:46] <ev> (see: not for oneiric)
[15:47] <ev> to be clear, is there just the one that comes from Microsoft's Services for UNIX, or is there an open source implementation kicking about?
[15:47] <slangasek> ev: however, *I* am not opposed to the idea in principle; I did, after all, implement pam_smbpasswd with its 'migrate' option
[15:47] <ev> yay, that I like to hear
[15:47] <slangasek> oh, I don't know if there's an open source one
[15:47] <slangasek> I thought you had one in mind
[15:48] <slangasek> pam_smbpasswd could do it, if samba were wired up to support reading directly from the Windows database
[15:48] <slangasek> but I don't know the database format
[15:48] <slangasek> I think the person to talk to about this is probably Simo Sorce at Red Hat
[15:48] <slangasek> (Samba Team member)
[15:49] <ev> okay
[15:49] <ev> mind you, I'm not opposed to using Microsoft's
[15:49] <ev> if they wrote it, chances are it works
[15:50] <slangasek> but I'm guessing its license isn't GPL-compatible :-)
[15:50] <ev> pish tosh
[15:50] <ev> neither is Broadcom's
[15:51] <slangasek> but PAM modules we configure by default get intentionally loaded into memory by every authentication-using application on the system, many of which are GPL
[15:51] <ev> ah, damn
[15:51]  * ev shakes his fist at Stallman
[15:52] <slangasek> :)
[15:53] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[15:53] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:53.
[15:53] <slangasek> thanks, everyone!
[15:53] <ev> fanks!
[15:54] <barry> thanks!
[15:54] <jhunt_> thx
[17:01] <jibel> hggdh, patrickmw pedro_ bdmurray Ursinha charlie-tca meeting time ?
[17:01] <pedro_> hello
[17:01] <jibel> hello pedro_
[17:01]  * patrickmw waves
[17:01] <patdk-wk> hmm?
[17:01] <bdmurray> oh hai
[17:02]  * pgraner waves
[17:02] <jibel> hggdh, you're chairing today
[17:02] <jibel> you volunteered, remember ?
[17:02] <patdk-wk> oh, wrong channel :)
[17:04] <jibel> I'll do, hggdh to chair next meeting
[17:04] <jibel> #startmeeting
[17:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:04. The chair is jibel.
[17:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:04] <jibel> [topic] Previous Actions
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Previous Actions
[17:04] <jibel> no actions from previous meeting.
[17:05] <jibel> [topic] Community Efforts/Testing
[17:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Community Efforts/Testing
[17:05] <pgraner> jibel, question, I saw a bug day announcement go out with no test in the body of the email, might need a resend?
[17:06] <pgraner> pedro_, sent it out I think
[17:06] <jibel> pedro_ resent it.
[17:06] <jibel> there is a bug in evolution
[17:06] <pedro_> pgraner, it was re sent already, is an evolution bug
[17:06] <bdmurray> I don't thnk the resend went to ubuntu-devel-announce
[17:06] <pedro_> its sending empty body messages...
[17:06] <pgraner> pedro_, cool then it hasn't made it to me yet
[17:06] <jibel> pedro_, did you resent to ubuntu-devel-announce ?
[17:07] <pedro_> jibel, yes
[17:07] <jibel> pedro_, thanks.
[17:07] <pedro_> it was re sent to the same mailing lists
[17:07] <pedro_> looks like evolution really want me to switch to thunderbird :-P
[17:08] <bdmurray> I'll check the moderation queue then
[17:08] <jibel> Last week was Oneiric Alpha2
[17:08] <jibel> You'll find the results at [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/OneiricAlpha2TestReport
[17:09] <jibel> not much to add, please read the results and if you have questions just ask.
[17:09] <pgraner> One quick note, I  have had several developers contact me with good words about the testing this cycle
[17:09] <pgraner> specifically:
[17:09] <pgraner> * No critical issues requiring a late respin
[17:09] <pgraner> * No installer issues
[17:09] <pgraner> due to the automated testing
[17:10] <pgraner> all were caught and fixed prior
[17:10] <pgraner> Great work!
[17:10] <pgraner> ..
[17:10] <patrickmw> +1
[17:10] <pedro_> awesome \o/
[17:11] <jibel> yay, that's good to see the result of our testing effort \o/
[17:12] <jibel> Next week, we will test 10.04.3 and there will be no automation.
[17:12] <jibel> there are still some SRUs to verify http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
[17:12] <patrickmw> 0/
[17:12] <jibel> patrickmw, ?
[17:13] <jibel> patrickmw, We are all ears
[17:13] <patrickmw> I'm glad you mentioned the lack of testing.
[17:13] <patrickmw> Do we have older lucid tests?
[17:15] <jibel> the automated test doesn't run on Lucid and we estimated that it was a lot of work to backport them to lucid for 2 point releases only
[17:15] <patrickmw> the reason I ask is that we will be adding kernel sru tests for LTS.  just wondering if I could add things while I was at it
[17:15] <patrickmw> ok, fair enough
[17:16] <jibel> kernel SRU is a different thing, it has to be done on a very regular basis, next week we'll be testing ISOs that happens every 6 months for an LTS
[17:16] <skaet> o/
[17:17] <jibel> skaet, ?
[17:17] <skaet> would just like to encourage any one with the right hardware and spare cycles to help with the verification.
[17:18] <skaet> There are some old bugs that seem to be lingering in the pending-sru.html list that would be good to get fixed and out with 10.04.3
[17:18] <skaet> thanks.
[17:18] <jibel> indeed. If you're willing to help the first images of 10.04.3 landed today on cdimage.u.c
[17:19] <jibel> only powerpc is available at the moment.
[17:19] <jibel> So keep monitoring http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lucid/ for other images.
[17:19] <jibel> And to second what skaet said, you don't need to wait next week to start smoketesting the images.
[17:20] <jibel> Still on community testing, but another area: nVidia/ATI proprietary drivers testing.
[17:20] <jibel> We sent a call for testing proprietary graphics driver today.https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Testing/ProprietaryDrivers/Oneiric/VideoDrivers
[17:20] <jibel> If you have an nVidia (GeForce 6 or higher) or ATI (R600 or higher) graphics card you can help with testing the drivers in Oneiric and report rthe results to the tracker http://xorg.qa.ubuntu.com
[17:22] <jibel> Any question or comment ?
[17:23] <jibel> [topic] Automated/Systems Testing
[17:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Automated/Systems Testing
[17:23] <jibel> patrickmw, the floor is yours
[17:23] <patrickmw> = QA Lab =
[17:23] <patrickmw> * Albali is configured as an additional Jenkins slave
[17:23] <patrickmw> * Naartjie is next.  Need access to Remote KVM (appears to be locked.)  I've been in contact with IS about the issue.
[17:23] <patrickmw>
[17:23] <patrickmw> = Kernel SRU =
[17:23] <patrickmw> * Proposed branch for merge to allow -proposed update testing
[17:23] <patrickmw> * add QRT tests when ppa is complete
[17:23] <patrickmw> * add lucid (updates and proposed)
[17:23] <patrickmw>
[17:23] <patrickmw> = Ubiquity Testing =
[17:23] <patrickmw> * Pending status on Evan. I've contacted him this week.
[17:23] <patrickmw>
[17:23] <patrickmw> = Upgrade Testing =
[17:23] <patrickmw> * Albali is ready for Michael to migrate the update test framework.  He is aware and will inform me when he's ready.
[17:23] <patrickmw>
[17:23] <patrickmw> = DX Testing =
[17:23] <patrickmw> * Alex provided a list of packages with build-time tests.
[17:23] <patrickmw> * We will be having a further discussion on tests with specific graphics hardware requirements
[17:23] <patrickmw>
[17:24] <patrickmw> = IPv6 Testing =
[17:24] <patrickmw> * Working with Foundations team.  Test plan is complete.
[17:24] <patrickmw> * Stefane is completing work on the framework.
[17:24] <patrickmw>
[17:24] <patrickmw> = Other projects =
[17:24] <patrickmw> * Wubu - jibel is the owner
[17:24] <patrickmw> * Boot metrics - pending
[17:24] <patrickmw> * Ubuntu packages - pending
[17:24] <patrickmw>
[17:24] <patrickmw> questions?
[17:24] <patrickmw> ..
[17:25] <hggdh> I have a merge to propose for the server mail test; will do it today
[17:25] <patrickmw> thanks
[17:25]  * hggdh begs pardon, had a bit of an emergency at home
[17:26] <jibel> no question, moving on
[17:26] <jibel> [topic] Engineering Team Bug Status  pedro_ bdmurray Ursinha
[17:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Engineering Team Bug Status  pedro_ bdmurray Ursinha
[17:26] <pedro_> As you might know already we're having a bug day for the GNOME Control Center  tomorrow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20110714
[17:27] <pedro_> the purpose of that bug day is to triage + fix bugs on the new control center
[17:27] <pedro_> rodrigo who is the maintainer in both Ubuntu and at the upstream project is going to be around to help
[17:27] <pedro_> so if you have questions just ask those at #ubuntu-bugs or #ubuntu-desktop
[17:28] <pedro_> remember, the whole day tomorrow your timezone
[17:28] <pedro_> ..
[17:28] <bdmurray> added bug reporting guidelines for ubuntu-meta
[17:28] <bdmurray> fsys-tarfile-error apport package bug report cleanup
[17:29] <bdmurray> apt branch blocking of fsys tarfile error package install failures
[17:29] <bdmurray> updated ubiquity apport package hook to ask permission before adding debug log and block SQUASHFS error bug reports
[17:29] <bdmurray> review and approval of 2 new Ubuntu Bug Control members
[17:29] <bdmurray> added in iso-testing bug reports to the package status pages
[17:29] <bdmurray> udw class prep and  presentation regarding working with apport bugs
[17:30] <bdmurray> I also fixed a bug in pm-utils that was preventing things from inhibiting suspend - bug 665651
[17:31] <bdmurray> However, this means that some things like a script in toshset would inhibit suspend all the time
[17:31] <bdmurray> So I fixed that too
[17:31] <bdmurray> Point being if you see any weird suspend regression bugs let me know
[17:31] <bdmurray> ...
[17:32] <Ursinha> I've been basically boostraping in the ubuntu server team
[17:32] <Ursinha> am working to give them the basics, such as an SRU report for the packages we care about
[17:33] <Ursinha> reading what we already have, and modifying for us
[17:33] <Ursinha> ..
[17:34] <Ursinha> btw, if any of you are using scripts to generate reports that aren't in the BugSquad page, please, let me know
[17:34] <Ursinha> ..
[17:35] <jibel> Do you reused this report http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/ to tracker server SRUs?
[17:35] <Ursinha> jibel: it's not working, just fixed what was stopping that from producing the reports
[17:36] <jibel> ok thanks
[17:36] <jibel> any other question ?
[17:36] <Ursinha> thanks for pointing that anyway, jibel
[17:37] <jibel> [topic] Other Topics
[17:37] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Topics
[17:37] <jibel> any other topic you'd like to talk about ?
[17:38] <jibel> last topic then
[17:38] <jibel> [topic] Chair Selection
[17:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Chair Selection
[17:38] <jibel> hggdh you volunteer again ?
[17:38] <hggdh> jibel: yes, I do :-)
[17:39] <jibel> Thanks hggdh , I'll be prepared next time then!
[17:39] <jibel> 3
[17:39]  * charlie-tca made it, finally
[17:39] <jibel> charlie-tca, want to add a word before ending the meeting ?
[17:40] <charlie-tca> Can't think of anything, other than we all know desktop images for oneiric are broken for a week now, right?
[17:40] <charlie-tca> .
[17:40] <charlie-tca> ..
[17:41] <jibel> Yes all desktop images are broken for a week. I don't remember the package that causes this though.
[17:41] <jibel> Thanks all for attending
[17:41] <jibel> #endmeeting
[17:41] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:41.
[17:41] <charlie-tca> jibel: that /run/udev thingy
[17:41] <charlie-tca> I think
[17:41] <jibel> charlie-tca, oh yeah the /run transition
[17:42] <jibel> it's part of it.
[17:42] <charlie-tca> I just keep seeing people surprised to know they have been broken for so long, when they should have known already
[17:45] <Ursinha> charlie-tca: what do you mean by broken? not installing? borked X?
[17:45] <charlie-tca> There has not been a new image since july 5
[17:45] <charlie-tca> as in, none
[17:46] <charlie-tca> They can't even create one
[17:47] <Ursinha> oh
[17:48] <jibel> Ursinha, and users who upgraded their system ended up with no keyboard and mouse. pitti fixed it on monday
[17:48] <Ursinha> jibel: I proved that bug myself :)
[17:48] <Ursinha> last update fixed that though
[17:48] <charlie-tca> But we still have no desktop images
[17:49] <Ursinha> hm, that's weird
[17:49] <rsalveti> https://code.launchpad.net/~rsalveti/ubuntu/oneiric/base-files/run-transition/+merge/67444
[17:49] <rsalveti> this is related with the bootstrap issue
[17:49] <rsalveti> but still not yet applied :-(
[17:49] <Ursinha> that's really bad
[17:50] <Ursinha> jibel: is this the bug preventing images to be generated?
[17:50] <Ursinha> if so, I wonder why the fix wasn't applied yet
[17:51] <rsalveti> probably waiting slangasek to get the proper fix at the sysvinit package
[17:51] <rsalveti> but still, we should fix it asap so we can at least generate images again
[17:51] <slangasek> I expect to land this all today
[17:51] <slangasek> just have a few finishing touches to add
[17:52] <slangasek> not being able to bootstrap is messy; not understanding what we've done and having bugs drag out until post-release would be worse :)
[17:52] <Ursinha> ah
[17:52] <jibel> +1
[17:53] <Ursinha> I thought the problem was well known, so as the workaround proposed by the merge
[17:53] <rsalveti> that was the quick workaround, until the proper transition changes were in place
[17:53] <slangasek> it's well *known*, but it's difficult to understand all the implications
[17:54] <slangasek> so since the migration has been Real Soon Now<tm> for 2 days, no one was willing to upload the workaround :)
[17:54] <Ursinha> right
[17:54] <slangasek> (i.e., cjwatson declined when I nudged him, which is sufficient justification for me to not try to talk anyone else into it ;)
[17:54] <charlie-tca> +1
[19:17]  * Kreative` is away: Away


[08:58] <jthan> Morning.
[09:15] <rmg51> Morning
[10:11] <JonathanD> Morning
[11:56] <InHisName> Good Monday Morning everyone
[15:06] <ChinnoDog> hi all
[15:08] <ssweeny> hi ChinnoDog
[15:12] <jthan> S'up guys?
[15:15] <jedijf> morning....cheesesteak time
[15:15] <ChinnoDog> I miss going to release parties
[15:15] <ChinnoDog> jedijf: breakfast of champions?
[15:30] <jedijf> it's lunchtime now
[15:30] <jedijf> gotta go - fiending - trying a new place - well an old place for the first time
[15:35] <waltman> fiending?
[15:35] <waltman> wait, there are still cheesesteak places jedijf's never been to?
[16:59] <jedijf> waltman: have you never fiended
[17:02] <jedijf> waltman: chink's on torresdale - ok - the best is still paganos on ogontz ave
[17:03] <jedijf> even though, on the right day, jim's on south street can be pretty good too
[17:03] <jedijf> but jim's on cottman is a dog
[19:09] <ChinnoDog> Anyone here into using Listia?
[21:24] <waltman> jedijf: I confess I have never fiended.
[21:27] <ChinnoDog> I wish I had a cheese steak
[21:27] <waltman> Nor have I ever been to Chink's, even though I grew up not too far away from it.
[21:28] <waltman> OK, looking at the map, it was far enough :)


[00:00] <ari-tczew> how can I drop dependcy on file *.1 in /debian/ directory?
[00:00] <ari-tczew> I use debhelper 7
[00:01] <sistpoty> ari-tczew: define dependency? is debian/rules looking for a manpage there?
[00:02] <ari-tczew> sistpoty: my debian/rules: http://paste.ubuntu.com/484702/
[00:03] <ari-tczew> I wouldn't use .1 file
[00:03] <sistpoty> ari-tczew: maybe a build log with the error might shed more clue?
[00:04] <sistpoty> (as in, I don't know from the rules file alone)
[00:07] <ari-tczew> sistpoty: http://www.plikos.pl/19k4/last_operation.log.html
[00:07] <ari-tczew> sistpoty: better link: http://s1.plikos.pl/19k4/394cdc39e8e89bf8524d81d9c7bab073/last_operation.log
[00:08] <ari-tczew> sistpoty: I removed .1 file in the past
[00:09] <sistpoty> ari-tczew: I can't parse the output on the page (there are pictures and text in a language I don't speak)... maybe pastebin might be helfpul?
[00:10] <ari-tczew> sistpoty: did you used second link?
[00:10] <sistpoty> ari-tczew: both :)
[00:11] <ajmitch> chromium has a nice translate feature that helps there :)
[00:11] <ari-tczew> sistpoty: second link connect directlu to file
[00:11] <ari-tczew> directly*
[00:11] <ajmitch> ari-tczew: it probably depends on the http referrer being set, so when we go to it, it doesn't link directly
[00:11] <sistpoty> ari-tczew: nope, not for me at least
[00:12] <ajmitch> do you have a clementine.manpages file in debian/ ?
[00:12] <ari-tczew> sistpoty: I cannot use pastebin or something similiar, because this file is large
[00:12] <ajmitch> it's only the last few lines you need to pastebin
[00:12] <sistpoty> hey ajmitch btw
[00:12] <ajmitch> hi :)
[00:12] <ari-tczew> ajmitch: debian/manpages has got: debian/clementine.1
[00:12] <ari-tczew> but I deleted file debian/clementine.1
[00:12] <ajmitch> ok
[00:13] <ajmitch> so delete it from debian/manpages?
[00:13] <ari-tczew> ajmitch: hmmm..
[00:13] <ari-tczew> I'll try, but what next? package without manpage?
[00:13] <ajmitch> why did you delete the manpage?
[00:14] <ari-tczew> ajmitch: because I think that management this file is not easy. strange chars like \fB\-a\fR, \fB\-\-append\fR
[00:14] <ari-tczew> o_O
[00:15] <ari-tczew> is there any easier way to create manpage?
[00:18] <ajmitch> there are some tools like help2man to get it started, but the markup isn't that bad?
[00:22] <ari-tczew> ajmitch: I'm preparing a package for REVU. I'm merging 2 proposed packages - from one guest and upstream developer. Upstream's package doesn't include manpages. what do you think, is manpages necessary for music player?
[00:25] <ajmitch> I personally don't care about manpages for X apps when they've got basically no commandline options, but I think others may disagree with me on that
[00:26] <ari-tczew> aha
[00:27] <micahg> ajmitch: they have their uses unless the app has built in cli help for debugging
[00:27] <micahg> *options
[00:27] <ajmitch> I guess in the case of a music player, they can often be called with arguments like  --next, etc to skip tracks
[00:28] <sistpoty> ajmitch: I disagree, since I've seen to many strange apps in /usr/bin which don't give any help when called with --help and aren't obvious what these do
[00:29] <sistpoty> (hello kde things btw.)
[00:29] <ajmitch> sistpoty: right, but does having a manpage help in any way apart from having a description of them?
[00:30] <sistpoty> ajmitch: having a description would alread be something I'd been looking for
[00:30] <ajmitch> ari-tczew: as evidenced - others disagree with me :)
[00:31] <sistpoty> haha
[00:31] <sistpoty> ajmitch, ari-tczew: if it's evident what an application does, I don't think a man page is too much of a need though
[00:33] <ari-tczew> ajmitch, sistpoty: ok, I'll think about include .1 file.
[00:33] <ari-tczew> now other question: is possible to add 2 maintainers to one field?
[00:34] <ari-tczew> it's new package, only in Ubuntu
[00:34] <sistpoty> (as a side note, jsut to blame ajmitch, /usr/bin/ck-launch-session is not obvious to me (as seen on a debian/stable installation) :P)
[00:35] <ajmitch> sistpoty: it's perfectly obvious to me :)
[00:35] <sistpoty> haha
[00:35] <ajmitch> ari-tczew: no, I think the Maintainer field must be one name/email only - Uploaders can contain multiple
[00:36] <ari-tczew> ok
[00:43] <ari-tczew> ajmitch: thanks, deleting .1 file from debian/manpages helped me
[00:44]  * persia strongly encourages the creation of manpages for GUI apps.  That makes it appear nicely for tools like apropos.  It also lets the user have one consistent way to ask for documentation (which might just be an explanantion of the binary, and no options).
[00:45] <ari-tczew> I have support windows in tarball. should do I delete all files related to windows, or delete only .dll file? I'm thinking about source-contains-prebuilt-windows-binary
[00:50] <sistpoty> ari-tczew: I'd even suggest to delete windows binaries straight from the tarball (you can't be sure that the dlls match the source)
[00:51] <ari-tczew> sistpoty: so you suggest repack tarball. do I need to change versioning to dfsg?
[00:51] <sistpoty> ari-tczew: would be good, yes
[00:54] <sistpoty> damn, persia: you seem to have driven ajmitch away.... .o_O
[00:55]  * ajmitch is in hiding :)
[00:55] <sistpoty> haha
[00:55] <ajmitch> or just doing other stuff right now
[01:02] <ari-tczew> who know how bdrung check package? http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=8210 he gave some lintian issues. I haven't it in pbuilder's log.
[01:03]  * persia recommends lintian -iIEv --pedantic foo_source.changes foo_${arch}.changes : not everything here needs fixing, but it all needs thinking about
[01:05]  * ari-tczew sometimes thinks that some people here knows everything about packaging
[03:02] <lfaraone> ScottK: would you approve Sugar FFes for syncs from NEW?
[03:35] <ScottK> lfaraone: I'd prefer after they are out of New since then I know they met Debian's requirements.
[10:25] <AnAnt> Hello
[10:25] <AnAnt> Hello
[10:28] <AnAnt> how can I detect if the sound server on the system is pulseaudio or not ?
[10:35] <persia> AnAnt, Mostly we just assume it is.  What are you trying to accomplish?
[10:36] <AnAnt> persia: I am maintaining a package (zekr) in both Debian & Ubuntu
[10:37] <persia> Ah.  I see.
[10:37] <AnAnt> it is a java package, the problem is that Sun JRE has problems with pulseaudio
[10:37] <persia> So, what sort of ways *can* you output sound?
[10:37] <AnAnt> so I have to wrap the call to zekr using padsp
[10:37] <persia> Both Debian and Ubuntu recommend avoiding that.  Sun isn't supporting it much longer either :)
[10:37] <AnAnt> avoiding what ?
[10:38] <persia> using Sun JRE
[10:38] <Nafallo> persia: and when you say Sun, you mean Oracle, no? ;-)
[10:38] <AnAnt> well, there is a problem with OpenJDK too
[10:38] <persia> Nafallo, I didn't know Oracle ever committed to specific support periods for the JRE.  I'd be glad to be mistaken.
[10:39] <AnAnt> persia: zekr is using libbasicplayer-java to play audio
[10:39] <persia> That ought just work, regardless of the environment (kinda the point).
[10:39] <Nafallo> persia: I thought they had bought it all, I might be the one mistaken.
[10:39] <AnAnt> persia: it seems that libbasicplayer-java is using a method not supported by OpenJDK to control the volume (gain)
[10:39] <persia> If that fails to work, it's better to consider that a bug in the JRE
[10:39] <persia> Nafallo, I think they bought it all.  I just haven't personally been told any support periods for Java by anyone claiming to represent Oracle.
[10:40] <AnAnt> what out to just work ?
[10:40] <AnAnt> erm, I think I'm lost in the conversation
[10:40] <persia> libbasicplayer-java for audio out: it should generate audio for the user regardless of the user environment.  The application developer should not have to think about it.
[10:41] <persia> If it doesn't, that's a bug in the JRE (or JRE config), and should be fixed there, rather than in every application that uses libbasicplayer-java
[10:41] <AnAnt> persia: the audio playback works, it is modification of the output volume (setting the gain) that fails when pulseaudio is the system used
[10:42] <AnAnt> persia: the bug was filed against OpenJDK during lucid cycle I think
[10:42] <persia> OK.  Let's fix it.
[10:42] <persia> Working around it in zekr isn't the right solution.
[10:43] <AnAnt> let me see where it is then
[10:44] <AnAnt> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1914216/master-gain-not-supported-in-openjdk
[10:45] <AnAnt> persia: look at the first comment in that URL ^
[10:46] <AnAnt> ah, here's the LP bug: #491784
[10:47] <AnAnt> it was first filed against OpenJDK, then when I made a patch in libbasicplayer-java to workaround the problem, doko reassigned the bug to libbasicplayer-java
[10:48] <persia> And uploaded it.
[10:48] <persia> Does your patch not work?
[10:49] <persia> Or does OpenJDK have a second, buggier, internal implementation of libbasicplayer-java?
[10:49] <AnAnt> the patch only catches the exception to make the program using libbasicplayer-java not to crash
[10:49] <persia> Ah.  "fixed the issue" wasn't clear on that point :)
[10:49] <AnAnt> I just added a try catch
[10:50] <persia> Whereas what it really needs is some closer work to make it do the right thing.
[10:52] <AnAnt> "it" refers to OpenJDK or libbasicplayer-java ?
[10:53] <AnAnt> as mentioned in the first URL I pasted, there are other playback problems with OpenJDK
[10:54] <AnAnt> for example in Zekr, if I press play, then stop. The program would crash
[10:54] <AnAnt> I should press pause before stop
[10:54] <AnAnt> I think that relates to "it insists that you stop() a line before flush()ing it."
[10:59] <persia> I think "it" is libbasicplayer-java, although one would have to traverse the implementation to determine that for sure.
[11:00] <AnAnt> be back later
[11:00] <persia> But I think the solution is either to patch the implementation to not break, or to patch zekr to respond to pressing "Stop" with stop();flush();
[11:01] <persia> To troubleshoot, I'd probably back out your crash, and then read the exception traces to figure out where it makes sense to change things so it behaves sensibly.
[11:01] <persia> Err, back out your patch.
[11:02] <persia> Alternately, zekr could trap the real exception (by name) and do something interesting.
[11:26] <ari-tczew> tumbleweed: around?
[11:30] <tumbleweed> ari-tczew: no, working on finishing touches to our pyweek.org entry
[11:30] <ari-tczew> aha
[12:11] <AnAnt> persia: do something interesting ?
[12:12] <persia> Sure.  Not crash, or call some handler to work around the observed issue, or attempt to do something with an alternate implementation, etc.
[12:18] <AnAnt> persia: hmm, but according to http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1914216/master-gain-not-supported-in-openjdk, it seems that the actual problem is in OpenJDK
[12:19] <persia> I don't think there's enough technical content in that discussion to know if it's OpenJDK or some library running by default on typical OpenJDK installations.
[12:40] <AnAnt> persia: do the errors in https://bugs.launchpad.net/zekr/+bug/622663 give good hints ?
[12:41] <AnAnt> persia: erm, nevermind
[12:44] <persia> AnAnt, They do, but the "...10 more" hides the bit that gets interesting.
[12:45] <persia> Anyway, the thing to do (to my mind) would be to add gain control support, which just makes the issue disappear (and makes everyone else happy).
[12:45] <AnAnt> and how do I find out those 10 more ?
[12:45] <AnAnt> add it in OpenJDK you mean ?
[12:45] <persia> You'd have to replicate the crash (first installing an unpatched libbasicplayer-java, etc.
[12:45] <persia> Yeah.
[12:47] <AnAnt> so should I re-open #567856 ?
[12:47] <AnAnt> I mean #491784
[12:47] <AnAnt> LP 491784
[12:47] <persia> bug #491784
[12:48] <persia> I'd probably file a new bug for it.
[12:48] <persia> And get the patch submitted upstream.
[12:48] <persia> Because the discussion in the last bug doesn't really help with the new patch.
[13:06] <AnAnt> persia: LP #625790 <= is the information there enough
[13:09] <persia> AnAnt, Yep.  It shows that the problem is really with org.classpatch.icedtea.pulseaudio.PulseAudioSourceDataLine
[13:09] <persia> That should be fixed so it does the right thing.
[13:09] <persia> And it wouldn't happen with other providers, because then BasicPlayer will instantiate something different.
[13:09] <persia> It's purely a bug in the pulse manager implementation.
[13:10] <AnAnt> btw, I didn't try it on maverick
[13:11] <persia> To solve this, you probably want to try with latest PulseAudioSourceDataLine.java (and whatever body of code is part of the same release cycle as that).
[13:11] <persia> I'm completely certain this is an upstream bug, and needs be sorted there.
[13:11] <persia> Then we can backport the fix to maverick/lucid/whatever
[13:12] <AnAnt> where do I get that ?
[13:16] <persia> Well, the jar name starts with classpath.org, so that's a good place to start.
[13:19] <persia> Hrm.  Maybe not :( http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/classpath/org/?root=classpath
[13:19] <AnAnt>  /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/lib/ext/pulse-java.jar
[13:20] <persia> "ext" implies th OpenJDK folk consider it external (but bundled).
[13:20] <persia> Maybe one or more of the copyright or licensing statements in OpenJDK will identify who is upstream for it.
[13:21] <AnAnt> IcedTea is licensed under the GPL v2.
[13:22] <persia> Found it: http://icedtea.classpath.org/hg/pulseaudio/archive/tip.tar.bz2
[13:24] <persia> Might be fixed then.  I don't see that exception in PulseAudioSourceDataLine.java
[13:24] <persia> (unless I'm missing something obvious)
[13:26] <AnAnt> so I should build that and replace /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/jre/lib/ext/pulse-java.jar with it ?
[13:26] <persia> Oh, I see it.  So it enumerates over the supported controls, or tosses the exception.
[13:26] <persia> To test upstream, that would probably be the simplest way to do it, yeah.
[13:27] <AnAnt> persia: so it still is not fixed ?
[13:29] <persia> Well, it depends on what you pass getControl() :)
[13:30] <persia> At least the implementation has changed enough that it's worth testing with the new upstream.
[13:30] <AnAnt> ok
[13:30] <persia> I know the exception path will have changed.
[13:31] <persia> (or if it didn't, you should ask someone else, because that means my Java is too rusty)
[13:35] <AnAnt> erm, no Makefile.in ?
[13:36] <persia> uses ant, doesn't it?
[13:36] <AnAnt> oh,
[13:36] <AnAnt> autoreconf && ./configure && ant && make
[13:36] <persia> No.  Ignore me.
[13:36] <persia> Right.
[13:39] <AnAnt> well, configure complains that there is no Makefile.in !
[13:40] <persia> Ugh.
[13:40] <persia> You might want to check one of the release tarballs or something (http://icedtea.classpath.org/hg/)
[15:15] <AnAnt> persia: release tarballs (http://icedtea.classpath.org/download/source/) is for the whole Icedtea
[16:58] <MichealH> Hello
[16:58] <MichealH> How do I make a patch for Debian Bug Tracking reports?
[16:59] <MichealH> Its got something to do in the /debian directory
[16:59] <vish> MichealH: did you read the wiki i gave you already? :)
[17:00] <MichealH> vish, I looked at "When to Send to Debian"
[17:01] <MarioGL91> Hi, I'm looking at a package that FTBFS, and the error is "dkpg-buildpackaged died", can someone point me to the right direction with a link that explains this?
[17:02] <ari-tczew> MarioGL91: give a link
[17:02] <vish> MichealH: then , continue reading the wiki there is also a section for making patches  ;) its all there. you just need to read that wiki and its very easy , i'd suggest you first read the wiki and try to follow the instructions there, when you get stuck at something then ask here.
[17:03] <MarioGL91> ari-tczew: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/50288965/buildlog_ubuntu-maverick-amd64.gawk_1:3.1.7.dfsg-5_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[17:06] <ari-tczew> MarioGL91: known bug 601030
[17:06] <MichealH> Thanks vish Now's time to make a patch!
[17:09] <MarioGL91> ari-tczew: thanks
[19:07] <geser> hmm, is pulling a new upstream snapshot which adds support to build with llvm-2.7 a new feature that needs an FFe? currently the package FTBFS without this change
[19:20] <ari-tczew> geser: which package are you talking about?
[19:21] <geser> ldc
[19:34] <iulian> geser: No, I don't think so.
[19:35] <iulian> geser: Please file a bug and I'll ack it anyway.
[19:56] <geser> iulian: bug 625952
[20:02] <iulian> geser: Approved.
[20:43] <devildante> hi everyone! could someone help me?
[20:44] <vish> !ask | devildante
[20:44] <devildante> okay :)
[20:46] <devildante> I had modified the software-properties-gtk desktop file to include "NoDisplay=True", so it could be hidden from the menu. The change got merged, but the menu entry is still present :( Do you have any ideas why this doesn't work?
[20:57]  * Laney cuddles the empty build queues
[20:57]  * Laney sneaky sneaks in some haskell rebuilds
[22:48] <persia> AnAnt: Wow.  Sorry.  That's a big chunk.
[23:14] <txwikinger> hi pers?ia how are you
[23:14] <txwikinger> hi persia how are you?
[23:14] <persia> txwikinger, Much improved.  And you?
[23:14] <txwikinger> cool.. I am running an event for the Global Jam here
[23:14] <txwikinger> hat 4 brand new people show up
[23:15] <txwikinger> had
[23:15] <persia> Nice!
[23:17] <txwikinger> persia: I have a question that you might be able to answer
[23:17] <txwikinger> I am stuck on packaging with a virtual package
[23:17] <txwikinger> I have a package that provides this virtual packages that is available
[23:18] <txwikinger> but somehow it does not seem to be automatically selected by apt-get
[23:18] <txwikinger> how does that exactly work?
[23:22] <persia> Does anything else provide the virtual package?
[23:22] <persia> Also, does `aptitude search` find it?
[23:23] <txwikinger> Yes another package provides the virtual package
[23:24] <txwikinger> persia: aptitude search gives me a "v <package-name>" of the virtual package
[23:24] <persia> Err, rather `aptitude show ${virtual-package}`
[23:25] <persia> Excellent!  That means you have a working virtual.
[23:26] <txwikinger> but the packages that needs the virtual package does not install with apt-get
[23:26] <txwikinger> in complains that the virtual package cannot be found
[23:26] <persia> What's the dependency entry for the package that needs the virtual package?
[23:28] <txwikinger> Not sure I understand this question.. it is a depend on the virtual package
[23:28] <txwikinger> and apt-get says broken dependency
[23:28] <nicoulaj> I have packages in a Launchpad PPA for which I would like to request publication in ubuntu repositories. Anyone could point me to the docs/process to follow ?
[23:30] <persia> txwikinger, I'm hoping you'd past the Depends: line from the control file.  There's rules about how one can depend on virtual packages, which I'm not able to express well now, but I hope to be able to apply to determine if the line is OK (as in, if it "looks wrong", I'm hoping I can explain why)
[23:31] <iulian> Do we have a new Launchpad status called "Opinion"?
[23:31] <iulian> Doh, we obviously do.
[23:31] <iulian> Is there any info about it?  I have no idea what it means.
[23:31] <txwikinger> persia: Depends: libc6 (>= 2.4), libmcrypt4, phpapi-20090626
[23:31] <persia> nicoulaj, The process for making that happen is undergoing discussion currently.  You could put them on REVU, but folks aren't reviewing there very much.  You could try to get them into Debian, but there's a freeze on there.  You could submit them to the post-release process, but that's still being founded.
[23:31] <persia> txwikinger, Which is the virtual?
[23:32] <txwikinger> Also the packages are pinned because I don't want php5.3 to load
[23:32] <persia> iulian, Could you link to an example?
[23:32] <txwikinger> phpapi-20090626
[23:32] <txwikinger> iulian: did you look in the wiki at the bugs pages?
[23:33] <nicoulaj> persia: Wow...ok, I'll come back next year then
[23:33] <txwikinger> iulian: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
[23:33] <persia> txwikinger, OK.  I'd recommend changing the line to "Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, ${real-package} | phpapi-20090626"
[23:33] <txwikinger> persia: ok. I will try that
[23:34] <persia> If something that Provides: phpapi-20090626 is already installed, it will continue.  If not, it will select ${real-package}
[23:34] <txwikinger> real-packages being one of the once that provide the virtual package?
[23:34] <txwikinger> right.. good idea
[23:34] <persia> nicoulaj, Apologies that you've caught us at a bad time.  Submitting through Debian ought work fine in a month or two, and we *really* hope to have something sane for straight-to-Ubuntu sometime in October.
[23:35] <persia> txwikinger, Precisely.
[23:35] <iulian> txwikinger: Oh, thanks for the link.
[23:35] <persia> I believe it's required to be like that, but I can't remember the precise details just now.  Something about resolver internals.
[23:36] <txwikinger> iulian: no problem
[23:40] <nicoulaj> persia: Not a big deal, I'll just wait a few months, this is more by curiosity than a real need. Anyway, thanks for the infos and keep up the great work ;)
[23:40] <geser> persia: fixing the ldc FTBFS is done; it's waiting in the unapproved queue
[23:42] <persia> geser, I saw that :)  I'll find something else (there's plenty that FTBFS *only* on armel/powerpc, which I figure it's better to hunt as I likely can replicate (although some bugs are annoying, like hdf5 where I can't replicate the build failure, but the buildds can)
[23:43] <geser> yeah, getting hdf5 fixed on armel would be really nice as it would unblock several other packages
[23:43] <persia> Indeed.
[23:44] <persia> But "builds for me" doesn't seem to convince the LP buildds to behave differently :)
[23:53] <geser> persia: what's your idea on the graphviz-cairo FTBFS? I'm in favour of dropping the package
[23:54] <geser> I looked already in lucid at that FTBFS and if I remember correctly it doesn't build due to changes in graphviz or so
[23:54] <geser> as I couldn't find the exact location where it got downloaded, I don't know if there is a update for it
[23:57] <persia> For hdf?
[23:57] <persia> or for graphviz?
[23:58] <geser> for graphviz-cairo
[23:59]  * persia grumbles at empty README/NEWS/AUTHORS