 @kokonutti [Is touch even capable of running desktop software?], Libertine is for legacy app usage
 So in shorty
 [Edit] So in short, there's no way to use it as a touch enabled desktop?
 Or does libertine allow for regular C
 [Edit] Or does libertine allow for regular access for apt repositories?
 The only thing that I seek is a Linux for this device that supports the hardware well
 @kokonutti [Or does libertine allow for regular access for apt repositories?], It's a container to install and run legacy or CLI apps in
 @kokonutti [The only thing that I seek is a Linux for this device that supports the hardware …], Phones and tablets are not PCs, and trying to treat them directly as such will definitely lead to disappointment
 @kokonutti [The only thing that I seek is a Linux for this device that supports the hardware …], You could try running regular ubuntu or pmOS with the mainline kernel but that is not the scope of this group
 @Fuseteam [Not sure morph has an feature to support self signed certs yet, but it is in the …], Sure, just a flag away I think
 @mateosalta [Sure, just a flag away I think], as is everything xD
 @kokonutti [Is touch even capable of running desktop software?], ubuntu touch has a 2GB readonly rootfs to make sure things work reliably and due to mobile limitations … as already mentioned for desktop software there is libertine … you can think of libertine as a box to put "desktop software"  … gui software installed in there are launc
[03:08] <ubptgbot> hable through;the drawer as normal and with the proper bind mounts has access to the home directory … major caveats will be that the gui is not suited for small touch screens ;)
[04:58] <ubptgbot> Neyar Nishanth was added by: Neyar Nishanth
[05:00] <ubptgbot> <Neyar Nishanth> Can I get an iso file of Ubuntu Touch
[05:01] <ubptgbot> <Neyar Nishanth> Pls reply soon
 Hi, there is no iso. You use the installer to bring it to supported smartphones.
 I hear the Volla Phone supports multi-boot via SD card. Does it allow for example UT on the eMMC and the customised AOSP OS on the SD card?
 And, has anyone successfully had it imported to the USA or Canada?
 [Edit] I hear the Volla Phone supports multi-boot via SD card. Does it allow for example UT on the eMMC and the customised AOSP OS (aka Volla OS) on the SD card?
[07:16] <ubptgbot> Abhi Singh was added by: Abhi Singh
[07:17] <ubptgbot> <Abhi Singh> CAN I USE Ubports On redmi note 8 pro
 @Abhi Singh [CAN I USE Ubports On redmi note 8 pro], Please see list of supported devices: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/
[07:22] <ubptgbot> <Abhi Singh> @Flohack [Please see list of supported devices: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/], Ok thanks but my One is not available
[07:26] <ubptgbot> <Abhi Singh> Can it be develop futher for other devices
 @Flohack [Please see list of supported devices: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/], I think we need a faq for newcomers
 @Flohack [Please see list of supported devices: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/], [Edit] I think we need a faq for new comers
 @ItsMeShouko [I think we need a faq for new comers], Yes but where to put it? =) We can pin here, but still people will ask I think.
 The link to devices page is on the homepage, what eslse can we do
 @Flohack [Yes but where to put it? =) We can pin here, but still people will ask I think.], We can use a bot that can display a link for FAQ when a new user joins the group
 It can look a bit spammy
 @Fuseteam [ubuntu touch has a 2GB readonly rootfs to make sure things work reliably and due …], Thanks a lot! To all of you. The nexus 7 2013 has 7" fhd display so even older apps should behave
 Hmph, I was going to suggest to make the bot to pm the new user, but I think it isn't allowed in telegram. I'll check if there is a way to filter those messages out for "old" users (ps you are not old, just veeery experienced)
 6
 @boriseto [Hmph, I was going to suggest to make the bot to pm the new user, but I think it …], A group is a group you cannot just display messages for one guy
 @Fuseteam [ubuntu touch has a 2GB readonly rootfs to make sure things work reliably and due …], And I plan to use it with a Bluetooth keyboard and touch as a mouse replacement
 Mostly going to be just remote managing my home environment from that instead of carrying a laptop with me when I don't have to
[08:04] <ubptgbot> <X YZ> @TartanSpartan [I hear the Volla Phone supports multi-boot via SD card. Does it allow for exampl …], VollaOs on the phone and UT or SFOS on sd.
 quick question
 I have TWRP on the device
 will it be replaced but ubuntu touch?
 I have a modified (enlarged) partitiontable too
 should I return the fstab to stock before installing?
 or does ubports installer just deal with it?
 @kokonutti [should I return the fstab to stock before installing?], From what I know you need to restore stock partition sizes before running the installer.
 (I know this is assuming a lot, such as that someone even has n7 flo at hand)
 @Danfro [From what I know you need to restore stock partition sizes before running the in …], okay
 does this install affect twrp?
 I remember errors because of not matching partition sizes for other devices.
 okay
 luckily it's a simple ish script to do
 @kokonutti [does this install affect twrp?], Yes we will install our own recovery, since updates are flashed by a special script in recovery mode
 can  someone do a quick rundown on how to use libertine?
 @Flohack [Yes we will install our own recovery, since updates are flashed by a special scr …], okay
 I assume it is fixed as easily as just flashing twrp back and wiping partitions?
 if i wanna return back to regular androids at some point
 or for some reason ub touch is not what i need
 been loking at pmos too
 but it doesn't support bluetooth
 @kokonutti [I assume it is fixed as easily as just flashing twrp back and wiping partitions?], Yes
 @kokonutti [can  someone do a quick rundown on how to use libertine?], http://docs.ubports.com/en/latest/userguide/dailyuse/libertine.html
 tjank you!!!!!
 You might want to clear partitions however, to reduce space usage of the respective other OS you are wiping. Android and UT dont use the same storage concept, so they will report both occupied space that cannot be freed
 so in TWRP, just wipe everything?
 uuuuf
 is there any other way to install it than from ubuntu?
 I don't have a ubuntu install at hand
 debian!
 or can I somehow get the instaler to run on arch
 Installer works on many OSes
 yeah apparently
 sorry for not reading website first
 the cli tool seems to no longer work
 No, dont use this for production ;)
 right
 got the appimage to work
 I assume the flashing step takes a while?
 Udev rules failed
 @kokonutti [Udev rules failed], Yes need to be set manually sorry
 Which ones?
 It's not very verbose😅
 Some usual adb udev issues
 ?
 Try that maybe
 Fwd from Flohack: See that answer with 42 upvotes: https://askubuntu.com/questions/461729/ubuntu-is-not-detecting-my-android-device
 Thank you
 I haven't had udev issues before so this was confusing
 Tidigare adb devices just worked
 [Edit] Previously adb devices just worked
 Hmm AppImage might have issues, yesterday a user reported the same. Snap was working then
 Okay
 (Photo, 720x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/TxAxRWNj.png It's booting
[08:57] <ubptgbot> DoggoWithHat was added by: DoggoWithHat
 And once that's done and validated I tell the result to the app?
 is there any way to change the terminal user=
 [Edit] is there any way to change the terminal user?
 I don't wanna be phablet : D
 terminal tells me it only allows 2 users
 and delepting phablet breaks everything?
 or is that done in libertine?
 There is no valid reason to change the phablet user to something else. The system expects phablet to be there.
 yes I understand that
 but is there way to make additional users
 shell leads me to believe it's impossible
 Even if you added a user, it's very likely they will disappear after an upgrade. And they won't have writable home.
 i only need an username
 to make my remote management easier
 @Flohack [Yes but where to put it? =) We can pin here, but still people will ask I think.], I think it's still useful to have written answers for questions "why can't we just support a device X and what does a port require"
 ssh my.domain = easy
 I know I am whining
 but is there really no way?
 I can set up a script somewhere to add the user
 @kokonutti [I know I am whining], make an ssh config with phablet as the authentication user on your management PC first.
 I know
 @kokonutti [I know I am whining], [Edit] make an ssh config with phablet as the authentication user on your management PC instead.
 can't you use SSH config to set up... Yes
 no, I mean to have SSH config on phone with correct username for server set
 what happens if i use apt?
 everything dies every update?
 as apt seems to exist
 @kokonutti [everything dies every update?], there's potential, yes. We don't use apt to install software of upgrade the system
 not every, but your changes may get overwritten
 we use image-based concepts instead
 that I know
 yeah
 because android bs
 yes
 but it should not overwrite /home/phablet?
 or is there a safe store I can put my configs to=?
 okay
 so if i apt install firefox?
 it works
 and my config lives after updates?
 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10197559/ssh-configuration-override-the-default-username#10197697 just in case
 thänc
 I have sofar had no issues with unchangeable usernames
 but that is helptufl
 is there any way to get even firefox?
 Only in Libertine, and that won't be optimized for touch
 I don't much care for optimisation for touch
 i care for manageable size, linux and good battery
 and this fits the bill with support for all radios
 and apparently usb too
 Yeah, battery will die sooner since it's not utilizing the GPU for rendering.
 @kokonutti [<reply to media>], Friend … Can you tell me this mobile brand name or model
 nexus 7 flo
 Ok friend
 libertine says no candidate for firefox
 I guess this is arm32 and ain't noone porting ff to that
 do you need virtual keyboard in Firefox?
 no
 I have a bluetooth one with a mouse
 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/KBD-BO-TrackPoint-KBD-US-English/p/4Y40X49493
 this
 no vim in libertine?
 or do I need to do additional stuff to get libertine searching things?
 it seems to find nothing at all
 Could arm32 be a problem?
 @kokonutti [Could arm32 be a problem?], maybe there just isn't an install candidate for this architecture. … You can see if you can find a suitable .deb elsewhere, put it in your Downloads folder and select that from the libertine menu
 dependency hell at your risk of course
 hmm
 this os would be the perfect base
 but seems my device is just too old
 uhhhh
 does it support incoming ssh -X?
 you mean connecting to device and starting device apps on PC?
 Yes
 I am afraid my arm32 is the issue
 What a shame
[09:49] <ubptgbot> <Jim Katsanos> Is there any building group for ub?
 How the heck do I get vim
 There's already nano
 There isn't gcc or any build tools
 Can't compile from source
 Ääää
 I am probably not the intended user for this 😅
 i managed to install and run some stuff for Rpi in libertine. maybe look there
 Okay
 Rpi is 64
 I guess this'll be a fancy ssh box
 if it runs it runs?
 Yeah but arm32 uses different assembly
 Apps made for arm64 can't run on 32 it
 Or do you also have n7flo?
 no, Fairphone2, OnePlus one, BQ M10
 Hmmmm
 i in stalled armhf debs
 [Edit] i installed armhf debs
 try in separate container, if it breaks, no harm right?
 Ye
 Bluetooth isn't working
 (was testing with USB kbd)
 Maybe I'll go back to android for this particular tablet
 Lineage+fdroid had me all I needed
[10:05] <ubptgbot> <X YZ> How would i in ut protect myself from tracking, fingerprinting, cookies etc while browsing the internet?  … Are addons like on pc/ff available/ necessary? … How about changing dns and ad-blocking? 🤔 … Am willing to read all relevant docs if somebody could please point me to them ... … Thanks! 😀👍
 @kokonutti [no vim in libertine?], have you tried apt update in libertine?
 @kokonutti [does it support incoming ssh -X?], yes it does
 are you sure you are in libertine?
 @X YZ [How would i in ut protect myself from tracking, fingerprinting, cookies etc whil …], for ad blocking there uadblock in the store
 add-on/extensions aren't supported yet and dns can be persistently be changed yet
 @Fuseteam [are you sure you are in libertine?], I have no how to set it up 😅
 Can I get a dummy explanation
 There was the libertine menu in settings
 I created one there
 That's all I've done
 It didn't find packages
 Or can someone at least point me to documentation
[10:52] <ubptgbot> <X YZ> @Fuseteam [add-on/extensions aren't supported yet and dns can be persistently be changed ye …], Does this mean that my privacy on the internet is better protected using Android and browsers (FF, Tor, ...) with correctly configured add-ons (not to mention Ubuntu on PC) than using UT / Morph? 😳
 @kokonutti [Or can someone at least point me to documentation], http://docs.ubports.com/en/latest/userguide/dailyuse/libertine.html
[11:01] <ubptgbot> imaximmoscow was added by: imaximmoscow
[11:05] <ubptgbot> richter Herman was added by: richter Herman
 @X YZ [Does this mean that my privacy on the internet is better protected using Android …], FWIW there is a Tor browser in the OpenStore
[11:10] <ubptgbot> <X YZ> @fredldotme [FWIW there is a Tor browser in the OpenStore], Thanks, good to know, will take a look and try it ... 👍
 @X YZ [Does this mean that my privacy on the internet is better protected using Android …], You can open private tabs in Morph, and there is a very hackish solution for blocking ads by dns redirection, but other than that there is not much yes. Write a petition to Mozilla so that we can embed their browser, but its very unlikely they even
[11:12] <ubptgbot>  respond ;)
 Idk how well the tor browser works tbh
 @Tafitson [http://docs.ubports.com/en/latest/userguide/dailyuse/libertine.html], Thank you
 Is there anything that can be done to get Bluetooth working?
 It would make my setup perfect
[11:16] <ubptgbot> <X YZ> @Flohack [You can open private tabs in Morph, and there is a very hackish solution for blo …], Mozilla does not let UT embed FF? Shame on them ... 😳
 @X YZ [Does this mean that my privacy on the internet is better protected using Android …], hmm would say depends on what you mean with protecting your privacy
 @X YZ [Mozilla does not let UT embed FF? Shame on them ... 😳], its fairly difficult compared to chromium yes
 @kokonutti [Is there anything that can be done to get Bluetooth working?], for your bt keyboard?
 @Fuseteam [for your bt keyboard?], Yes
 The usb works but it's clunky
 Bluetooth doesn't seem to work at all currently
 I installed the edge build on the installer
 Can I use apt in libertine?
 it should work but i don't have o— ohw i wouldn't install edge
 Okay
 So mainline would probably work?
 Or the default whatever
 edge is the developer sandbox, things break often there
 Ah
 Okay
 What steps should I take to reinstall the different versions?
 Go to bootloader and repeat install process with the app?
 you can switch through system settings iirc
 Okay
 And then it's just a matter of system update?
 @kokonutti [Can I use apt in libertine?], ohw and yes you can, no sudo tho; its an unprivileged container
 No way to elevate privilege?
 Or do I just install debs with the installer on gui?
 @kokonutti [And then it's just a matter of system update?], yes just go to update settings and switch channel
 Because for some reason the system libertine search did not find anything
[11:25] <ubptgbot> <X YZ> @Fuseteam [hmm would say depends on what you mean with protecting your privacy], Preventing advertisements, making sure no third party knows who I am and which websites I visit and what links I follow, protecting IDs and passwords entered to access online-accounts, ... the usual stuff.
 @kokonutti [No way to elevate privilege?], you can get a root shell fwiw
 Okay so # apt install xyz works?
 but libertine has its own tool to use apt to install inside the container as well
 Okay
 yes
 How do I enter libertine with the system term?
 Can't?
 @kokonutti [Because for some reason the system libertine search did not find anything], yeah the search is broken iirc :x
 Play9
 [Edit] Okay
 How do I get a shell into the container?
 you can yes, check the shell access section of the docs
 i forgot the command
 Sorry
 It's right there xd
 If I install a different shell via that shell, will it show up in the app menu?
 Like gnome term or something
 i recommend setting up the container of ssh btw, it take a while, so the process needs to finish before you can do stuff
 @Fuseteam [i recommend setting up the container of ssh btw, it take a while, so the process …], Hmm?
 Is it in the same doc as all the libertine stuff?
 yes gnome term is installable and will show up but uh it might not launch haha
 Also, do I need to add some sources to the app store, didn't seem to find telegram there
 @Fuseteam [yes gnome term is installable and will show up but uh it might not launch haha], Any terminal?
 Even xterm
 teleports is the telegram client
 Ah
 [Edit] teleports is our telegram client
 i haven't tried xterm
 How about element.io?
 Matrix client
 fluffychat i would say
 It's available for mainline Ubuntu
 @Fuseteam [fluffychat i would say], Okay
 but development on that has slown down recently
 Right
 If I install desktop software via container, how many things break?
 I have access to mouse and keyboard
 Does it support a pointer?
 element is also an electron app hmmmm
 Because in an optimal world I only use the underlying hw Ubuntu provides and replace everything else
 Or at least have the option of turning it into a useful desktop when I need one
 Like is there a way to get to tty and init x on a different one
 As the regular terminal's apt is disabled for a reason
 Can it be forked?
 I understand that the update process is very different due to aneroid limitations
 So is that what locks it down so much?
 Because imagine a tablet with i3wm and desktop software
 AND touch
 It requires a specific bootloader and kernel yes?
[11:38] <ubptgbot> <X YZ> @kokonutti [Because imagine a tablet with i3wm and desktop software], Sounds like pinetab to me...
 Some blobs to get radios working?
 I could start building my own frolnthisb
 [Edit] I could start building my own from this
 @X YZ [Sounds like pinetab to me...], I have this
 Am too poor to buy new hw
 Would love to give new life to this one
 Postmarket guys haven't gotten Bluetooth or battery management working
 So that's out of the question
 Because this project is doing amazing with the hw support
 Is three any conceivable way to get apt working natively?
 I am willing to deal with updates making me have to fix everything
 Is there a development chat I can go pester?
 I feel like this is fairly off topic for tho group
 @dohbee [like, you could probably take atom or vscode, and write a qml wrapper to load th …], wow this is 2 years ago now
 @kokonutti [So is that what locks it down so much?], so it's not really "locked down" it's just apt works in way that would make it more likely to break the system (the system in general not the current system)
 ask yourself this: "why does apt require sudo?"
 the answer is because it wants to dump the folder structure into the rootfs, and that it. on ubuntu touch this rootfs is readonly
 and due to cache limitation the rootfs is only 2GB which doesn't leave much room to install stuff even if you remount rootfs as readwrite
 that's why libertine was created
 @kokonutti [Is three any conceivable way to get apt working natively?], Not with the current ideas and philosophies. Everything is read only except the home folder of phablet and the install dir for apps. And system settings. Basically then we can do image-based upgrades, as every user will be on the exact same version of the rootfs
 Which means we can also apply deltas
 Thats really hard if people mess with apt
 there are ways to make part of `/` readwrite at some point it would render the benefits of a readwrite rootfs moot
 benefits of the a readonly rootfs include: … less wear on the flash storage … easy recovery … better reproducibility of bugs … and as mentioned by florian: delta updates and better maintainence across different devices.
 i've been using ut with a readwrite rootfs for a while and what i can really appreciate of this image based system is the easy reset, without data loss
 i cannot count the ammount of times i have essentially reinstalled ut using ut without lossing any of my apps or files
 [Edit] i cannot count the ammount of times i have essentially reinstalled ut using ut without losing any of my apps or files
 [Edit] i cannot count the amount of times i have essentially reinstalled ut using ut without losing any of my apps or files
 sans my apt installed apps i'm kinda looking into a way around losing those, getting close hehe
 [Edit] sans my apt installed apps i'm kinda looking into a way to avoid losing those, getting close hehe(spoiler it involves not using apt)
 [Edit] sans my apt installed apps, i'm kinda looking into a way to avoid losing those; getting close hehe(spoiler it involves **not** using apt)
 [Edit] sans my apt installed apps, i'm kinda looking into a way to avoid losing those; getting close hehe (spoiler it involves **not** using apt)
 Does anyone know if there is an emulator for old (and new) versions of UT?
 @Mister_Tails121 [Does anyone know if there is an emulator for old (and new) versions of UT?], Not really, no
 @Flohack [Not really, no], Uuuuu .... Sad ... It would be nice to have an emulator or iso image for VirtualBox
 Well without a real hardware below its not much difference to a traditional desktop, so its questionable whats the benefit
[12:15] <ubptgbot> Amit Mishra was added by: Amit Mishra
 @NotKit [non-MediaTek Xiaomi often as well], My tucana has Android 9 GPL but not 10 GPL
[13:50] <ubptgbot> <Heng Ye> Will it be possible to have encrypted /home?
 @X YZ [VollaOs on the phone and UT or SFOS on sd.], What about the reverse?
 @impreza233 [My tucana has Android 9 GPL but not 10 GPL], we care about Android 9 kernel anyway so far
 @NotKit [we care about Android 9 kernel anyway so far], But, the five cameras? How could be integrated?
 I don't know how is it implemented in Android, which part is done by HAL and which is by camera software
 @impreza233 [But, the five cameras? How could be integrated?], It could be that we only 1 camera to life, for example. The more parts are done in higher levels the less we can easily migrate this to UT.
 Hey, this reply comes very late but you can do what @TacoBarz said, or you can buy a PinePhone. … The PinePhone may serve you better if you're an enthusiast
 @Руслан [Unfortunately, no. 😞], Hey, this reply comes very late but you can do what @TacoBarz said, or you can buy a PinePhone. … The PinePhone may serve you better if you're an enthusiast.
 @Руслан [Unfortunately, no. 😞], [Edit] Hey, this reply comes very late but you can do what @TacoBarz said, or you can look at the PinePhone. … The PinePhone may serve you better if you're an enthusiast.
[14:44] <ubptgbot> <X YZ> @TartanSpartan [What about the reverse?], As far as I know ABM only supports dual-booting of UT or SFOS from SD with VollaOS on the phone. … But sometimes the devs are here and can tell you more, or you join them at https://t.me/andbootmgr
 @NotKit [I don't know how is it implemented in Android, which part is done by HAL and whi …], I will have to investigate it. In fact, OpenCamera on Android only recognizes the main 108 MP camera, and not at full resolution, only binned
 @Flohack [It could be that we only 1 camera to life, for example. The more parts are done …], So the Xiaomi bits, for example, would not work in Halium, I guess
 yes, especially if those are part of vendor app and do not work in 3rd party Camera apps
 @Fuseteam [and due to cache limitation the rootfs is only 2GB which doesn't leave much room …], Sjjjj
 @Fuseteam [and due to cache limitation the rootfs is only 2GB which doesn't leave much room …], [Edit] Ahh
 So libertine can be used in a useful way?
 yes it can
 It's basically a chroot with useful extras
 It just seems cumbersome to setup
 it is an unprivileged container for running legacy applications, yes
 it is an incomplete and experimental feature, yes
 so it still has some bumpy edges
 Right
 Can it get me my armhf Firefox and  other armhf debs running?
 So that they appear in my usual ui?
 Without gigantic pain?
 And is the UI how bound to the system?
 Does it use systemd?
 yes, firefox is installable, though not sure why you need it specifically to connect to an internal web server to control home automation. does the host browser not work?
 no it doesn't use systemd
 Initrc?
 Can I get to tty1?
 Or other tty:s
 and you ask too many questions too quickly for people to give you useful responses, particularly with so many irrelevant comments and questions thrown in
 @kokonutti [Initrc?], no, it uses upstart
 @kokonutti [Can I get to tty1?], no, phones are not PCs
 @dohbee [and you ask too many questions too quickly for people to give you useful respons …], I know
 @dohbee [no, phones are not PCs], Right
 I am sorry
 I am probably trying to create something ub touch wasn't made to do
 The reason it for me interested is the successful access to all hw
 because it's using old android kernel with android HAL and libhybris, yes
 Yeah
 but we're also building an OS for devices that is reliable for regular people. not to run web servers
 Yes
 I just want a pocketable desktop
 Pinetab would be it
 But I'm poor
 Is there a way to build from source?
 The os that is?
 Couldn't easily find a github
 And start prodding
 build what? all of UT? yes, but it's not like building android where you just  check out 50GB of a git repo and then type a few things
 I have built Linux and  kernels before
 Not a problem
 But like get the build files etc and do my custom to fit my niche needs
 I understand ub touch is a bunch of bubblegum that works  yes?
 I need the kernel and blobs, I'll get my graphics etc sorted
 @kokonutti [I understand ub touch is a bunch of bubblegum that works  yes?], We have 400+ repos on Github and Gitlab. Plus we pull a lot of stuff still from Canonical 16.04 package repos. And then put all together. Its almost impossible for 1 person to customize everything on top of what we customize ;)
 Fuck
 @kokonutti [I need the kernel and blobs, I'll get my graphics etc sorted], Believe me its not that easy
 I want to try :D
 @kokonutti [I need the kernel and blobs, I'll get my graphics etc sorted], if you just want halium so you can run debian on top or something, you might want to check out Mobian, but docs for building the android parts are at https://docs.halium.org
 Canonical invested man-years into that, and a lot.
 @Flohack [Canonical invested man-years into that, and a lot.], I know
 most things in debian do not work with libhybris though, so you are still going to have a massive headache with it
 The literal only reason for me to have this is the drivers etc working
 @dohbee [if you just want halium so you can run debian on top or something, you might wan …], You mean to say mobian and that could work?
 I apologise for being a total idiot
 @kokonutti [You mean to say mobian and that could work?], i mean it will be closer to a traditional linux experience. i don't mean it will necessarily work well, given how most traditional linux apps have no idea how to deal with android hardware
 i wouldn't call any tablet as "pocketable" either really :P
 Right
 @dohbee [i wouldn't call any tablet as "pocketable" either really :P], More pocketable than a laptop
 @kokonutti [More pocketable than a laptop], i have a laptop that is smaller than a nexus 7.
 Idea is to have a useful device in case I forget my laptop
 And also to use hardware already at hand
 well, i don't know what your exact goals are, and can't infer them from all your posts, but rather than asking random questions about how underlying components work or how to try and force your tablet to work the same as a traditional linux PC, you would get more useful answers and help if you stated clearly what your end goal is (ie what
[16:31] <ubptgbot> you specifically want to use the device to do, rather than how you want to do it), and asked how to get there or if UT is a good fit for it, first.
[17:12] <ubptgbot> Nicolas S was added by: Nicolas S
[18:46] <ubptgbot> PacoIgnazioTaiboII was added by: PacoIgnazioTaiboII
 Hi guys, I've just installed ubports on a Nexus 5. It seems to me that bluetooth and gps are not working. Is there anything specific I've to do to solve the problem?
 Recently I had a problem with GPS (not getting fix) but BT work well.
 [Edit] Recently I had a problem on my N5 with GPS (not getting fix) but BT work well.
 @PacoIgnazioTaiboII [Hi guys, I've just installed ubports on a Nexus 5. It seems to me that bluetooth …], GPS will work only outdoors and you need to give it some time to finx a fix, uip to 5mins
 Thank you, I'll give a second chance also to Bluetooth!
 @Flohack [GPS will work only outdoors and you need to give it some time to finx a fix, uip …], Of course it was outdoor and I let my N5 20 mins on a table...
 @libremax [Of course it was outdoor and I let my N5 20 mins on a table...], You can always try to use test_gps (as sudo) cli tool to see if you get a fix. Its a bit hard to spot but after some minutes longitude and latittude info should pop up
 This will tell you if its device-specific fault or app-specific ;)
[19:10] <ubptgbot> asem7 was added by: asem7
 @Flohack [You can always try to use test_gps (as sudo) cli tool to see if you get a fix. I …], Thanks, I will try that tomorow.
[19:19] <ubptgbot> J O was added by: J O
 @kokonutti [Can I get to tty1?], What do you need tty for btw?
 Took me a few hours of setting up libertine and installing firefox(mostly setting up libertine)
 (Photo, 720x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/AfV22Od1.png
 Behold firefox
[20:17] <ubptgbot> <Andy Bleaden> Was it worth it?
 (Photo, 720x1280) https://irc.ubports.com/mQrjnhLu.png
 @Andy Bleaden [Was it worth it?], no it isn´t :P
 I mean it works if you connect a mouse and keyboard
 @Flohack [no it isn´t :P], HoW dArE yOu CaLl LiBeRtInE wOrThLeSs
 now that was sarcasm
 [Edit] now that was sarcasm-ish
 @Andy Bleaden [Was it worth it?], Jokes aside what would you consider "worth it"?
 It runs and it works with mouse and keyboard
 @Andy Bleaden [Was it worth it?], Yes
 Or he said no?
[20:21] <ubptgbot> <Andy Bleaden> Worth hours compared to the usual browser...I use Firefox elsewhere but found the libertine effort not worth it
 Tho since its xmir it's relatively slow i guess
 @Andy Bleaden [Worth hours compared to the usual browser...I use Firefox elsewhere but found th …], I suppose the usual browser is more worth it as its actually convergent
 And not as slow ;)
 @Fuseteam [What do you need tty for btw?], To have a different user with. xinitrx
 But tbdy seems unproductive
 yeah you're not going to run xorg on top of android like that
 @kokonutti [To have a different user with. xinitrx], Ah i see, i have had success running a de over x forwarding fwiw
 Are you looking for a way to install and 'traditional linux' programs?
 Hmm i know there a firefox config to enable touch scrolling
 [Edit] Hmm i know there is a firefox config to enable touch scrolling, what was it again
 Found it https://superuser.com/questions/1151161/enable-touch-scrolling-in-firefox
 @Flohack [GPS will work only outdoors and you need to give it some time to finx a fix, uip …], @flohack I've noticed that GPS works indoors fairly reliably on my M10 tablet. Usually gets a fix in about a minute. My Nexus 4 only gets a fix outdoors. Maybe the M10 has a higher gain antenna?
 @dtarrant [@flohack I've noticed that GPS works indoors fairly reliably on my M10 tablet. U …], Yeah might be
 @Flohack [Yeah might be], Aluminium foil?
 @Fuseteam [Are you looking for a way to install and 'traditional linux' programs?], Yes
 I am somewhat disinterested in the OTA updates
 Ah that explains it
 Is it because how "cumbersome" libertine is?
[23:30] <ubptgbot> jimbo jackson was added by: jimbo jackson
 As shown above firefox appears normally in the launcher when its set up
 Do you happen to know what your device architecture is?
 @Fuseteam [Is it because how "cumbersome" libertine is?], Yes
 @Fuseteam [Do you happen to know what your device architecture is?], Arm32
 @Fuseteam [Do you happen to know what your device architecture is?], Armv7


[00:07] <mup> PR snapcraft#4354 closed: fix: support abstract socket listen-streams <Created by sergiusens> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/4354>
[00:22] <mup> PR snapcraft#4359 opened: Hotfix/7.5 merge <Created by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/4359>
[00:32] <mup> PR snapd#12003 closed: Add Flipper Zero U2F <⛔ Blocked> <Needs security review> <Created by esver> <Closed by alexmurray> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/12003>
[05:58] <mup> PR snapd#13183 closed: seed: preseed timestamp should be after my-signer key registration <Test Robustness> <Skip spread> <Created by pedronis> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13183>
[06:13] <mup> PR snapd#13182 closed: i/builtin/block-devices: loop* is actually included now <Simple 😃> <Skip spread> <Created by pedronis> <Merged by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13182>
[07:29] <mup> PR snapd#12863 closed: interfaces/upower-observe: allow it in core-desktop <⛔ Blocked> <Created by sergio-costas> <Closed by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/12863>
[07:59] <mup> PR snapd#13177 closed: tests: fix interfaces-fwupd-classic test in arch linux <Simple 😃> <Created by sergiocazzolato> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13177>
[11:30] <mup> PR snapd#13168 closed: osutil/epoll: make TestEpollWaitEintrHandling -race clean <Test Robustness> <Skip spread> <Created by pedronis> <Merged by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13168>
[14:59] <mup> Issue snapcraft#4219 closed: "snapcraft try" using provider LXD generates a prime/ directory with no payload <Bug> <Created by rpjday> <Closed by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/issues/4219>
[14:59] <mup> Issue snapcraft#4285 closed: Snapcraft v7 fails to build core18 snap with local plugins <Bug> <Created by pachulo> <Closed by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/issues/4285>
[14:59] <mup> Issue snapcraft#4287 closed: Abstract socket in listen-stream cause validation failure <Bug> <Created by phckopper> <Closed by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/issues/4287>
[14:59] <mup> PR snapcraft#4359 closed: Hotfix/7.5 merge <Created by sergiusens> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/4359>
[15:09] <mup> Issue snapcraft#4360 opened: Add "--base=core2x"" option to "snapcraft extensions" <Enhancement> <Created by rpjday> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/issues/4360>
[18:29] <mup> Issue snapcraft#4361 opened: improve errors for architecture definitions <Enhancement> <Created by mr-cal> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/issues/4361>
[19:48] <mup> PR snapd#13178 closed: interfaces/builtin: fix custom-device udev KERNEL values <Squash-merge> <Created by olivercalder> <Merged by olivercalder> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13178>


[03:04] <mup> PR snapcraft#1925 closed: elf: cache crawled files <bug> <Created by sergiusens> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1925>
[03:07] <mup> PR snapcraft#1923 closed: mypy: update to 0.560 <Created by kyrofa> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1923>
[06:08] <mborzecki> morning
[06:18] <zyga> hey hey
[06:18] <mborzecki> zyga: hey
[06:19] <zyga> darn tests
[06:20] <zyga> I wish someone would go through the prepare/restore process and made restore really purge stuff
[06:20] <zyga> and made prepare install a cached copy of core
[06:20] <zyga> it feels like tests are leaking all the time
[06:20] <zyga> leaving junk around
[06:29] <mborzecki> ideally take a snapshot of filesystem before the test, restore after the test, don't know if there are tools to do that
[06:30] <zyga> mborzecki that's also interesting, yeah
[06:30] <zyga> but in all honesty, purge would be a simple approach that ought to mostly work
[06:30] <zyga> I worry about random places less than about our essential files
[06:31] <zyga> I will do an experiment, I have some old branches that did full caching of all the snaps used for testing
[06:31] <zyga> but I can simplify that to just one snap (core) and purge+install package, install core
[06:31] <zyga> I really don't like how prepare and restore are swapped in our setup
[06:31] <zyga> where restore prepares
[06:31] <zyga> and prepare does nothing much
[07:24] <mvo> zyga: hey, good morning! whats up?
[07:24] <zyga> hey
[07:25] <zyga> nothing major so far, just me being grumpy about tests that clearly run in some corrupted state
[07:25] <zyga> I'm doing code reviews
[07:25] <mvo> zyga: aha, so master is in un-happy land?
[07:25] <mvo> zyga: at random times
[07:25] <mvo> ?
[07:26] <zyga> I think master is fine but our test suite is not perfect
[07:26] <zyga> I tried to fix it a few times but without major success, I'll try to push forward slightly today
[07:26] <mvo> ok
[07:28] <zyga> mvo https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4600 needs deconflicting
[07:28] <mup> PR #4600: configstate: validate known core.* options <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4600>
[07:28] <mvo> zyga: it needs a +1 from niemeyer about the concept
[07:29] <mvo> zyga: I mean, its not clear that we want this (and if so in what way)
[07:29] <mvo> zyga: (I personally think so but thats just me :)
[07:29] <zyga> mborzecki https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4571 has unaddressed comments but could land shortly
[07:29] <mup> PR #4571: data, cmd, packaging: use autotools to generate artifacts under data <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4571>
[07:29] <mborzecki> zyga: i'll be coming back to it once i'm done with timer services
[07:30] <mborzecki> mvo: morning
[07:30] <zyga> thank you!
[07:31] <mvo> hey mborzecki, good morning! how are you?
[07:31] <mborzecki> mvo: grumpy, found a bug in timer schedules :)
[07:31] <zyga> oh? :)
[07:32] <mvo> mborzecki: meeeh, but better you than our users. how bad is it? (2.31.1 material?)
[07:33] <mborzecki> eg. mon1-tue2,10:00-12:00 is a window 10 to 12, from 1st monday to the 2nd tuesday, well it doesn't work this way, it skips wednesday to sunday :/
[07:36]  * mvo nods
[07:38] <mvo> mborzecki: is there a fix yet? and if so, how invasive is it?
[07:38] <mborzecki> mvo: still looking into it
[07:39] <mvo> mborzecki: ok, keep me updated please
[07:49] <zyga> mvo is trivial if you want to look https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4673 :-)
[07:49] <mup> PR #4673: interfaces/mount: generate per-user mount profiles <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4673>
[07:49] <zyga> (this is chopped from the user mounts PR)
[07:51] <mvo> zyga: ok
[07:54] <kalikiana> good morning
[07:56]  * zyga -> afk for 40 minutes
[08:05] <mup> PR snapd#4668 closed: store: revert PR#4532 and do not display displayname <Created by mvo5> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4668>
[08:41] <mup> PR snapd#4674 opened: packaging: fix build on sbuild <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4674>
[09:08] <Chipaca> moin moin
[09:08] <Chipaca> did somebody pull the plug on the dc?
[09:20] <Chipaca> JamieBennett: mvo: I can't access anything in the dc. Is my ISP sucking at its job, or is it everybody? this thing thinks it's up: https://down.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fsnapcraft.io
[09:21] <JamieBennett> snapcraft.io is up for me
[09:22] <mvo> Chipaca: I can log into people.c.c so its not fully down
[09:22] <zyga> hey Chipaca
[09:22] <zyga> Chipaca works for me
[09:23] <zyga> Chipaca want to VPN through my network? ;-)
[09:23] <zyga> Chipaca thanks for the review yesterday
[09:23] <zyga> I addressed all of those and merged that one
[09:25] <Chipaca> looks like it's the vpn that's crashed
[09:25] <Chipaca> turned that off and i'm in
[09:26] <zyga> Chipaca can I quickly drag you into another review?
[09:26] <zyga> builds on the mount spec change for user mount entries
[09:27] <zyga> this time the mount backend spits out a new file based on those
[09:27] <zyga> very mechanic and shorty
[09:27] <zyga> *short
[09:27] <Chipaca> zyga: mostly (late) in the town hall
[09:27] <Chipaca> zyga: but sure
[09:27] <zyga> https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4673/files :-)
[09:27] <mup> PR #4673: interfaces/mount: generate per-user mount profiles <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4673>
[09:27] <zyga> thank you!
[09:39] <Chipaca> zyga: duuuude
[09:40] <zyga> hmm?
[09:41] <Chipaca> zyga: two chunks of code that are exactly the same
[09:41] <zyga> aaaaw, ok
[09:41] <zyga> I'll dedupe it :)
[09:41] <zyga> thanks for pointing that out
[09:43] <Chipaca> zyga: you don't even need a helper, just a loop
[09:56] <zyga> Chipaca pushed, I opted to do a helper in the end, have a look
[09:56] <Chipaca> yeah, the fstab vs user-fstab would've made the loop clunky i guess
[09:56] <Chipaca> at least without a big refactor :-)
[10:00] <zyga> thanks John
[11:11] <mborzecki> mvo: one fix for schedules comint up shortly
[11:11] <mborzecki> what an annoying edge case though
[11:13] <zyga> hmm
[11:13] <zyga> + test-snapd-timedate-control-consumer.hwclock-time -r -f /dev/rtc
[11:13] <mup> PR snapd#4675 opened: timeutil: fix scheduling on nth weekday of the month <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4675>
[11:14] <zyga> I'm wondering if we have anew problem
[11:14] <zyga> or if I broke it somehow (but unlikely since this PR is about mounts)
[11:15] <mborzecki> zyga: what's the problem?
[11:15] <zyga> + test-snapd-timedate-control-consumer.hwclock-time -r -f /dev/rtc
[11:15] <zyga> hwclock: Unable to connect to audit system
[11:15] <zyga> hmm
[11:15] <zyga> look at https://api.travis-ci.org/v3/job/341809848/log.txt
[11:15] <zyga> I bet this is not related to my PR
[11:15] <zyga> and it is a genuine problem elsewhere
[11:16]  * mvo hugs mborzecki
[11:17] <mborzecki> zyga: seccomp?
[11:17] <zyga> yes, this is seccomp for sure
[11:17] <zyga> the bad system call thing is
[11:17] <zyga> the one about audit is more curious
[11:17] <zyga> looks like apparmor
[11:17] <zyga> which would be "bugs all over the place"
[11:18] <zyga> hmm hmm but the same debug log below shows no seccomp or apparmor issues
[11:18] <zyga> broken log?
[11:19] <mborzecki> zyga: there are no denials from apparmor though :?
[11:20] <mborzecki> zyga: what if the rtc does not work in those vms?
[11:20] <zyga> this test didn't fail before
[11:21] <mborzecki> zyga: or /dev/rtc is not a device node, showing would be useful
[11:24] <Chipaca> ooooh, my new keyboard arrived \o/
[11:25] <mvo> speaking of strange errors - https://travis-ci.org/snapcore/snapd/branches shows 2.31 broken in spectacular ways that do not make any sense at all :/
[11:25] <zyga> Chipaca what did you get?
[11:26] <zyga> mvo looking
[11:26] <zyga> + MATCH gadget - on debian 9 this makes no sense
[11:27] <zyga> should this test even run there
[11:27] <zyga> hmmm
[11:28] <mvo> zyga: also it makes no sense because the diff is very small so it can't break like this
[11:28] <mvo> ohwell
[11:28] <Chipaca> zyga: https://twitter.com/chipaca/status/964099012281487360
[11:29] <zyga> woah
[11:29] <zyga> man
[11:29] <zyga> I look forward to seeing you type on this :)
[11:29] <Chipaca> zyga: the firmware is open
[11:29] <Chipaca> zyga: …
[11:29] <Chipaca> i didn't have enough side projects
[11:29] <zyga> how come I didn't follow you yet
[11:30]  * zyga follows chipaca
[11:30] <Chipaca> zyga: probably because i was private for a while
[11:32] <mup> PR snapd#4674 closed: packaging: fix build on sbuild <Created by mvo5> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4674>
[11:34] <zyga> mborzecki posted a question on 4675
[11:34] <mup> PR snapd#4676 opened: timeutil: introduce helpers for checking it time falls inside the schedule <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4676>
[11:37] <mup> PR snapd#4663 closed: interfaces/builtin: allow MM to access login1 <Created by alfonsosanchezbeato> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4663>
[11:38] <mup> PR snapd#4635 closed: snap: add support for `snap run --gdb` <Created by mvo5> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4635>
[11:38] <zyga> mborzecki how are arch spread tests doing?
[11:38] <zyga> is that still on hold?
[11:38] <mborzecki> waiting :)
[11:39] <mborzecki> i want to finish timer services for 2.32 first, then come back to autotools in $(top_srcdir)/data and then arch
[11:39] <zyga> ok
[11:42] <mborzecki> zyga: right, so interface-time-control is failing in my pr too
[11:44] <mborzecki> Chipaca: does the keyboard come with the straps to attach each half to a hand? :)
[11:46] <Chipaca> mborzecki: it comes with two different length cables to connect the halves to each other, a rail to connect the two halves into a single thing at adjustable angles, two feet to stand them independently and angled any which way, a screwdriver to take it apart, and a booklet to put it back together again
[11:51] <mborzecki> Chipaca: nice, looking forward to hearing more about your impressions once you use it for a while
[11:51] <Chipaca> impression #0: it's going to have a learning curve
[11:51] <Chipaca> was currently in the zone in a bit of a refactor, put it to one side
[11:53] <mborzecki> wow, it even comes with source code and stuff
[12:17] <zyga> re
[12:17] <zyga> I'm tethered from my phone, not sure why local ISP (both of them) failed
[12:27] <mborzecki> zyga: https://paste.debian.net/1010385/
[12:28] <zyga> netlink
[12:28] <zyga> weird
[12:28] <zyga> thank you for checking that
[12:28] <mborzecki> why is it touching netlink?
[12:28] <zyga> maybe the test started to rely on netlink now
[12:28] <zyga> (for whatever reason)
[12:28] <mborzecki> actually socket(AF_NETLINK, SOCK_RAW, NETLINK_AUDIT) ?
[12:28] <zyga> is hwclock coming from systemd?
[12:28] <zyga> or maybe some nss plugin or something
[12:30] <mborzecki> zyga: just strace on host http://paste.debian.net/1010387/
[12:30] <zyga> yeah
[12:30] <zyga> no netlink
[12:30] <mborzecki> i don't see socket anywhere
[12:32] <mborzecki> zyga: ok, os here's hwclock from the core snap: https://paste.debian.net/1010389/ no clue why it does socket() call
[12:37] <zyga> mborzecki does it do this in stable?
[12:37] <zyga> or just in edge?
[12:38] <mborzecki> zyga: it's edge
[12:38] <mborzecki> let me try stable
[12:38] <zyga> yeah, try stable
[12:38] <zyga> I wonder if it's a regression
[12:38] <zyga> (^H "new feature")
[12:39] <zyga> brb, let me try normal internet again
[12:40] <Son_Goku> zyga, mborzecki, mvo: what do I need from the release/2.31 branch that isn't part of the 2.31 tagged release?
[12:41] <zyga> ok, internet is back
[12:41] <zyga> Son_Goku I think just take all of release/2.31 since that's exactly what it is for
[12:41] <zyga> mvo will do a .1 soon AFAIK
[12:41] <zyga> but you really want to ask mvo about that
[12:41] <Son_Goku> mvo, do you plan on doing a 2.31.1?
[12:43] <mborzecki> damn, random lockup, cursor moving and all, but the rest was frozen
[12:43] <zyga> mborzecki ryzen?
[12:44] <mborzecki> zyga: no, i think it's the damn wifi
[12:45] <mborzecki> it's the 2nd time this happened, and kernel backtrace shows warnings from iwlwifi
[12:46] <Chipaca> perhaps I should lunch
[12:48] <mup> PR snapcraft#1926 opened: Release changelog for 2.39.1 <Created by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1926>
[13:02] <mvo> Son_Goku: there will be a 2.31.1 with some small fixes, probably monday
[13:03] <Son_Goku> mvo, okay, then I won't prepare a snapd update just yet, then
[13:04] <zyga_> mborzecki, ok, I know what's causing this
[13:07] <jdstrand> mborzecki: I don't have any special insight except that the audit system sounds like ne of CAP_AUDIT_READ, CAP_AUDIT_WRITE or CAP_AUDIT_CONTROL and/or NETLINK_AUDIT
[13:08] <jdstrand> zyga_: ^
[13:08] <jdstrand> mborzecki, zyga_: *or* /dev/rtc isn't in the device cgroup
[13:09] <jdstrand> mborzecki, zyga_: no, that should be a different error
[13:13] <jdstrand> zyga: "mborzecki, ok, I know what's causing this"
[13:13] <jdstrand> zyga: what is it?
[13:13] <zyga> util-linux (2.30.1-0ubuntu4.1) artful; urgency=medium
[13:13] <zyga>   * Add --with-audit to rules file and libaudit-dev to build depenedencies.
[13:13] <zyga>     The hwclock needs audit defined in order to create audit records when
[13:13] <zyga>     time is changed. (LP: #1722313)
[13:13] <mup> Bug #1722313: Enable auditing in util-linux. <rls-aa-notfixing> <verification-done-artful> <verification-done-xenial> <verification-done-zesty> <util-linux (Ubuntu):Fix Released by j-latten> <util-linux (Ubuntu Xenial):Fix Released> <util-linux (Ubuntu Zesty):Fix Committed> <util-linux (Ubuntu
[13:13] <mup> Artful):Fix Released> <util-linux (Debian):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1722313>
[13:13] <zyga>  -- Joy Latten<EMAIL_ADDRESS>Sun, 05 Nov 2017 18:14:49 -0600
[13:13] <zyga> change in util-linuxy
[13:13] <jdstrand> so it is what I thought
[13:13] <jdstrand> mborzecki: I don't have any special insight except that the audit system sounds like ne of CAP_AUDIT_READ, CAP_AUDIT_WRITE or CAP_AUDIT_CONTROL and/or NETLINK_AUDIT
[13:13] <jdstrand> zyga: ^
[13:14] <jdstrand> have it plugs netlink-audit
[13:15] <jdstrand> that won't actually give you audit_write though
[13:16] <jdstrand> time-control needs updating
[13:16] <zyga> so we need to add netlink audit snippets to that interface
[13:17] <zyga> jdstrand right?
[13:17] <jdstrand> capability audit_write,
[13:17] <jdstrand> ^ apparmor
[13:17] <zyga> + socket bits I suspect
[13:17] <zyga> but yeah
[13:17] <zyga> (I think it was getting killed by socket syscall)
[13:17] <jdstrand> bind
[13:17] <jdstrand> socket AF_NETLINK - NETLINK_AUDIT
[13:17] <jdstrand> seccomp ^
[13:18] <jdstrand> but wait a second
[13:18] <zyga> thanks!
[13:18] <zyga> jdstrand if you want just send the branch :)
[13:18] <jdstrand> it is probably going to need capability net_admin,
[13:19] <jdstrand> is this on bionic?
[13:19] <zyga> jdstrand no, it's in xenial
[13:19] <jdstrand> oh, sru
[13:19] <zyga> yep
[13:19] <zyga> and it's now present in the core snap in endge
[13:19] <jdstrand> ok. this would affect other distros btw
[13:19] <jdstrand> (if they had strict mode)
[13:19] <zyga> just run strace -e socket /snap/core/current/sbin/hwclock
[13:19] <zyga> indeed
[13:19]  * jdstrand nods
[13:20] <zyga> and compare stable and edge
[13:20] <jdstrand> ok. let me think about this. I don't want to just give out net_admin
[13:20] <zyga> yeah, it sucks
[13:20] <zyga> I wonder if we could *not* give the permission
[13:20] <zyga> so that it gets socket
[13:20] <jdstrand> yeah, that capabilities subsystem has some icky spots
[13:21] <zyga> and doesn't crash
[13:21] <jdstrand> well, I was thinking of adding netlink-audit-control
[13:21] <zyga> but doesn't audit
[13:21] <jdstrand> we want it to audit though
[13:22] <jdstrand> we could add the socket, not the cap, then add both in the -control interface
[13:22] <jdstrand> then it doesn't die, but won't audit until netlink-audit-control is added
[13:22] <jdstrand> that's pretty reasonable
[13:22]  * jdstrand adds to list
[13:23] <zyga> yes, that's very nice
[13:23] <jdstrand> I've got two other investigations to do. I'll send up a PR for this in a bit
[13:31]  * kalikiana going for lunch break, while the poor laptop will have to keep running test cases
[13:32] <mup> PR snapd#4677 opened: cmd/snap: introduce `snap run --timer` <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4677>
[13:41] <mup> PR snapd#4678 opened: snap: fix `snap moo` output <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4678>
[13:42] <mvo> zyga: keep me updated on the --with-audit issue please
[13:42] <zyga> mvo ack, I think jdstrand is making a PR that will address it now
[13:42] <zyga> I will just review it
[13:43] <mvo> zyga: great, we will need it for 2.31.1 too
[13:43] <zyga> yes, absolutely
[13:43] <Chipaca> mvo: OMG :-)
[13:43] <cachio> mvo, hey, could you please upload the snap test-snapd-physical-memory-control ?
[13:44] <mvo> cachio: ups, forgot that, sure, let me do that now
[13:44] <cachio> mvo, tx
[13:44] <magicaltrout> my google fu is failing me
[13:45] <mvo> cachio: do you have a link
[13:45] <magicaltrout> is there a snapcraft_part_... build directory
[13:45] <mvo> cachio: is it in one of your PRs?
[13:45] <cachio> mvo, https://code.launchpad.net/~snappy-dev/snappy-hub/test-snapd-physical-memory-control
[13:45] <magicaltrout> variable I can use in a snapcraft build ?
[13:45] <mvo> cachio: thanks
[13:45] <cachio> mvo, I did not create a PR yet
[13:45] <cachio> I'm waiting for the snap :)
[14:19] <mup> PR snapd#4679 opened: systemd: add default target for timers <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4679>
[14:19] <mborzecki> trivial PR ^
[14:22] <mup> PR snapd#4680 opened: snap: pass full timer spec in `snap run --timer` <Created by bboozzoo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4680>
[14:25] <mborzecki> most of the timer services stuff is open for review now, still need to cut the service wrappers into smaller pieces
[14:26] <mborzecki> afk to pick up the kids
[14:27] <kalikiana> re
[14:38] <mup> PR snapd#4681 opened:  testutil: add File{Matches,Equals,Contains} checkers <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4681>
[14:41] <Chipaca> now, where was I?
[14:48] <kalikiana> Chipaca: unicorns? cats?
[14:55] <Chipaca> kalikiana: por qué no los dos?
[14:59] <kalikiana> Always :-D
[15:07] <seb128> why do some of the snaps have several loop mounts?
[15:07] <ogra_> for the same snap file ?
[15:07] <seb128> seems like several revisions are active?
[15:07] <seb128> dunno what you mean by "snap file"
[15:08] <ogra_> (there should always be three revisios of each snap ... and each has a mount)
[15:08] <ogra_> a file ending in .snaop
[15:08] <ogra_> *.snap
[15:08] <seb128> oh ok
[15:08] <seb128> why 3 revisions? can I tell snap that for a particular snap 1 is enough?
[15:08] <ogra_> i dont theink we technically need all of them mounted though
[15:08] <seb128> do they end up using 3 times the space?
[15:08] <ogra_> yes
[15:09] <seb128> :(
[15:09] <ogra_> for rollback etc
[15:09] <seb128> why 3 and not 2?
[15:09] <ogra_> i dont know why 3, 2 technically are enough ... thats a niemeyer question
[15:09] <seb128> k
[15:09] <seb128> thx
[15:14] <Chipaca> 3 revisions
[15:15] <Chipaca> because it leaves you one more revert in case things go bad
[15:15] <Chipaca> seb128: if you need to make space you can remove the revisions you're not using
[15:19] <zyga> re
[15:20] <kalikiana> o/ zyga
[15:20] <zyga> hey hey
[15:21] <seb128> Chipaca, how? snap list doesn't list them
[15:21] <Chipaca> seb128: snap list --all
[15:21] <Chipaca> seb128: and then, snap remove --revision=NNNN thesnap
[15:22] <seb128> Chipaca, thx, that's non obvious as an user of the system :/
[15:22] <Chipaca> seb128: you're trying to do something out of the ordinary
[15:22] <Chipaca> seb128: i'm not sure what part is the non-obvious though
[15:23] <Chipaca> seb128: but it's not surprising that to do advanced things you need to know the advanced things
[15:23] <jdstrand> zyga, mvo: I am now, yes
[15:23] <zyga> cook
[15:23] <zyga> cool :D
[15:24] <seb128> Chipaca, I started from "it's annoying that all those loop mounts show in the "df -h" cmd output, wth is there even 3 mounts for each snap"
[15:24] <jdstrand> mvo: what is the timeframe for 2.31.1 policy updates? I'll do that one right now, but there are some others I can work on this morning
[15:24] <Chipaca> kyrofa: jdstrand: did you see gustavo's request to drop the _ from the valid versions?
[15:24] <zyga> jdstrand I think .1 is next monday
[15:24] <zyga> so sufficient time
[15:24] <jdstrand> mvo: from my perspective, none are required, but you mentioned that we could sneak some in, so asking
[15:24] <jdstrand> ah, ok.
[15:24] <Chipaca> seb128: df -h -x squashfs
[15:25] <seb128> Chipaca, which I'm probably not the only one being annoyed about, but you are right it's a different topic of revisions installed and how to uninstall somes, it just made me wonder/try to understand why it was this way (which is the non obvious part)
[15:25] <jdstrand> Chipaca: not yet, but ack
[15:25] <seb128> Chipaca, we should make that option default :)
[15:25] <Chipaca> seb128: a year ago i'd've said 'fat chance', but with everything graphical now doing that, maybe the time is right to suggest it
[15:26] <Chipaca> seb128: OTOH i don't think df has an anti-x, ie a way of undoing an -x
[15:26] <seb128> :/
[15:26] <seb128> also is there an equivalent flag for "mount"?
[15:27] <Chipaca> $ df -h -x squashfs -t squashfs
[15:27] <Chipaca> df: file system type ‘squashfs’ both selected and excluded
[15:27] <mvo> jdstrand: I plan 2.31.1 for monday
[15:27] <Chipaca> seb128: mount output is useless these days
[15:27] <ogra_> well, we should really also mount the snaps dynamically ... whats the reason for havin all three revisions permanently mounted
[15:28] <Chipaca> seb128: mount | grep -v squash | wc -l <- 41 lines
[15:28] <mup> PR snapd#4682 opened: tests: new spread test for physical-memory-control interface <Created by sergiocazzolato> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4682>
[15:28] <zyga> seb128 I think that with the advent of cgroups and more exotic filesystems regular df stopped being for humans
[15:28] <zyga> I use pydf often for that reason
[15:28] <seb128> zyga, df works fine when you don't have snaps :)
[15:29] <ogra_> "in the old world"
[15:29] <seb128> it's the only thing I've installed that create noise here
[15:29] <ogra_> :)
[15:29] <zyga> ah, sorry, I confused df with mount
[15:29] <seb128> ogra_, you know your constant trolling is getting old
[15:29] <Chipaca> seb128: wrt mount, even mount(8) says "use findmnt(8) for listing"
[15:30] <Chipaca> seb128: and, findmount -t nosquashfs
[15:30] <Chipaca> findmnt*
[15:31] <seb128> that's better indeed :)
[15:32] <seb128> anyway thx, the noise just made me wonder why several instance of each snaps are mounted
[15:32] <seb128> I'm still unsure why the ones kept for fallback purpose needs to be mounted all time
[15:32] <Chipaca> seb128: findmnt -t nosquashfs,nocgroup
[15:32] <zyga> seb128 no reason, just work to get it not mounted
[15:32] <Chipaca> ;-)
[15:32] <zyga> seb128 e.g. snapd doesn't cache snap/meta.yaml
[15:32] <Chipaca> there was a reason for it
[15:32] <Chipaca> but i think it no longer applies
[15:33] <Chipaca> but, changing it takes work
[15:33] <Chipaca> zyga: and it's meta/snap.yaml :-p
[15:34] <zyga> snap yaml it is

[15:36] <mvo> Chipaca: iirc back in the day we would use systemds automunt feature but we kept things mounted for simplicity
[15:36] <zyga> mvo did we really try to do that?
[15:37] <zyga> but even if we did auto-mount on demand it wouldn't be enough to be sane
[15:37] <Chipaca> mvo: there was something we needed to do that required it to be mounted, but i lose the details
[15:37] <zyga> as "snap list" will mount everything
[15:37] <Chipaca> seb128: ooooh, findmnt has --df
[15:37] <Chipaca> seb128: and the circle is complete
[15:37] <zyga> I would say that if we kept snap meta-data in cache elsewhere
[15:37] <zyga> and not mount anything
[15:37] <zyga> we could even have snap run do the mounting (via api call to snapd)
[15:38] <mvo> zyga: well, snap list would mount it and after some inactivity it would go away
[15:38] <pedronis> well, we always said we don't want to call snapd from snap run
[15:38] <pedronis> so at least current needs to be mounted
[15:38] <zyga> yeah but 1) silly 2) silly 3) lots of IO/memory
[15:38] <zyga> 4) silly
[15:38] <zyga> pedronis well, yes,
[15:39] <zyga> but we also do things like wait for snapd to generate seccomp profiles from snap-confine
[15:39] <zyga> so ... hmm
[15:39] <zyga> I think the idea that app doesn't need to be mounted is useufl
[15:39] <pedronis> well
[15:39] <zyga> *useful
[15:39] <zyga> and for sure, not for the inactive revisions
[15:39] <pedronis> trade offs
[15:39] <Chipaca> hmm, is the timecontrol failure known, or are things broken?
[15:39] <zyga> this makes the discussion simpler, inactive revisions could be unmounted
[15:39] <pedronis> Chipaca: it's known
[15:39] <zyga> Chipaca it's known
[15:39] <Chipaca> ah, that's the one about netlink
[15:39] <zyga> it's being fixed by jdstrand
[15:39] <Chipaca> ?
[15:39] <zyga> yes
[15:39] <Chipaca> right
[15:40] <Chipaca> teh suck
[15:40] <pedronis> audit netlink that stuff
[15:46] <mup> PR snapd#4671 closed: tests: adding new test to validate the raw-usb interface <Created by sergiocazzolato> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4671>
[15:49] <mup> PR snapcraft#1906 closed: remote_parts: handle connection errors <bug> <Created by kyrofa> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1906>
[16:07] <niemeyer> Now Linode is reporting spam in one of our machines.. except the machine was not in our account by the time the spam was sent.. :)
[16:12] <mup> PR snapd#4683 opened: interfaces/time-control,netlink-audit: adjust for util-linux compiled with libaudit <Created by jdstrand> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4683>
[16:14] <zyga> oohh
[16:14] <zyga> looking
[16:15] <zyga> jdstrand offtopic, linux "sockets" are a pile of historic mess :/
[16:17] <zyga> jdstrand reviewed
[16:17] <mup> PR snapd#4685 opened: interfaces/time-control,netlink-audit: adjust for util-linux compiled with libaudit - 2.31 <Created by jdstrand> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4685>
[16:18] <jdstrand> zyga: and there is one for 2.31 ^
[16:18] <jdstrand> zyga: note, I didn't create netlink-audit-control because reading netlink-audit, it was always meant to allow writes
[16:18] <zyga> makes sense
[16:20] <jdstrand> zyga: it is arguably not a typo since it is 'plugs' in the yaml
[16:20] <jdstrand> zyga: I can fix it right now if you want
[16:20] <zyga> "should use plugs"
[16:20] <zyga> I think "should plugs" just sounds unnatural
[16:20] <zyga> not sure, not a native speaker
[16:20] <zyga> I will leave that up to you
[16:21] <jdstrand> it is unnatural and wrong for the verb, yes. but using the yaml definition as a verb, no
[16:21] <jdstrand> I'll fix
[16:21] <zyga> I thinbk there's no verb in that sentence,
[16:21] <zyga> that's what's bugging me about it
[16:22] <jdstrand> I'm using 'plugs' as a verb just like people use 'facebook' as a verb these days
[16:22] <jdstrand> again, I'm fixing it
[16:22] <zyga> ah, I see
[16:22] <zyga> I should have googled it ;)
[16:23] <jdstrand> well, I was making up language there, but, fixed
[16:24] <zyga> I was joking with "google" being a verb nowadays :)
[16:24] <jdstrand> oh haha. I totally missed that. nice :)
[16:24]  * jdstrand was multitasking
[16:25] <zyga> it's interesting how we caught a change in the core snap this way
[16:25] <zyga> it's certainly unusual and a result of unique things that snapd does
[16:25] <jdstrand> yeah
[16:26] <jdstrand> it is too bad that a change in an SRU regressed edge. it would be interesting to think about running the spread tests as part of SRU
[16:26] <niemeyer> cachio: The workaround for the corruption bug is now pushed to spread's master
[16:26] <jdstrand> but, it is edge, so no one was affected, and it did catch it, so that's good
[16:27] <jdstrand> if the SRU was bad enough, we could file bugs to have it reverted/fixed and the broken core would never make it to stable
[16:27] <jdstrand> basically, testing is a great thing :)
[16:27] <zyga> real men used to test in production on floppy disks
[16:27] <zyga> but I'm glad we're not there anymore
[16:28] <jdstrand> hee
[16:28] <mup> PR snapd#4299 closed: osutil/user: replace our uses of os/user and filepath.Glob("/home/*") <Created by chipaca> <Closed by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4299>
[16:29] <Chipaca> jdstrand: mvo: maybe edge should include -proposed
[16:29] <Chipaca> or is it -updates
[16:29] <Chipaca> i always forget the name
[16:29]  * Chipaca thinks it's -proposed
[16:29] <jdstrand> Chipaca: it has -updates
[16:29] <jdstrand> Chipaca: so I think you meant -proposed
[16:29] <zyga> yeah,
[16:29] <zyga> -proposed is really teh edge
[16:29] <zyga> but then it's confusing
[16:29] <jdstrand> but I don't think it should, unless you never promote from edge -> beta
[16:29] <zyga> because we don't want to test edge with proposed and beta with -updates
[16:29] <zyga> exactly :)
[16:30] <Chipaca> lots of red fish
[16:33] <zyga> I wish travis had a way to "bless" a branch
[16:33] <zyga> this branch unbreaks master
[16:33] <zyga> block all CI until it lands
[16:34] <zyga> "halt and stop fire" could be a nice name
[16:57] <cachio> niemeyer, great, tx
[17:07]  * zyga goes for some grocery shopping
[17:41] <blackboxsw> pedronis: thanks for the meeting, I updated retracted comments on https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4599
[17:41] <mup> PR #4599: many: send  new Snap-CDN header with none or with cloud instance placement info as needed <Created by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4599>
[17:42] <pedronis> blackboxsw: thank you
[17:53] <mup> PR snapd#4686 opened: daemon: make the ast-inspecting test smarter; drop 'exceptions' <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4686>
[17:54]  * Chipaca couldn't resist that one
[17:54]  * Chipaca has low resistance
[18:32] <elopio> snappy-m-o autopkgtest 1926 xenial:armhf
[18:32] <snappy-m-o> elopio: I've just triggered your test.
[18:32] <elopio> sergiusens: ^
[18:33] <sergiusens> snappy-m-o: autopkgtest 1926 xenial:amd64 xenial:arm64
[18:34] <snappy-m-o> sergiusens: I've just triggered your test.
[18:34]  * cachio afk
[19:36] <zyga> re
[19:36] <zyga> 3 hours and still pending. :(
[19:37] <zyga> crap
[20:26] <jdstrand> davidcalle: ping re https://docs.snapcraft.io/deprecation-notices/dn5
[20:26] <jdstrand> davidcalle: any nm, it is fixed now
[20:26] <jdstrand> s/any/ahh/
[20:27] <davidcalle> ;-)
[20:27] <jdstrand> davidcalle: thanks! :)
[21:31] <zyga> oh,
[21:31] <zyga> jdstrand you pushed just before I pushed :)
[21:38] <jdstrand> :)
[21:39] <jdstrand> diddledan: hey, I just tried to connect to you on wired. trying to look into https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/wire-snap-fails-to-use-the-network/3845
[21:39] <jdstrand> diddledan: not able to reproduce yet
[21:39] <diddledan> ello
[21:40] <diddledan> it only occurs once the call is acccepted
[21:40] <jdstrand> ok
[21:40] <jdstrand> I can create a second account then
[21:40] <jdstrand> diddledan: thanks!
[21:40] <diddledan> np :-)
[21:42] <mup> PR snapcraft#1927 opened: catkin plugin: extract Wstool into its own module <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1927>
[22:54] <mup> PR snapcraft#1928 opened: tests: remove duplicate tests <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1928>
[23:07] <mup> PR snapd#4683 closed: interfaces/time-control,netlink-audit: adjust for util-linux compiled with libaudit <Critical> <Created by jdstrand> <Merged by jdstrand> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4683>
[23:35] <mup> PR snapd#4687 opened: interfaces: miscellaneous policy updates for home, opengl, time-control, network, et al <Created by jdstrand> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4687>