[11:59]  * persia collects a gavel, and bangs it repeatedly
[11:59] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[11:59] <MootBot> Meeting started at 05:59. The chair is NCommander.
[11:59] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[11:59]  * Hobbsee throws jelly beans at persia
[11:59] <persia> NCommander has volunteered to chair the meeting.
[11:59]  * NCommander nods
[11:59] <persia> Do we have a volunteer to take minutes?
[12:00] <persia> OK.  I'll do minutes.
[12:00]  * persia hands the gavel to NCommander
[12:00]  * NCommander eats it
[12:00] <NCommander> What's the first topic of discussion
[12:00]  * NCommander is having trouble pulling up the wiki and the agenda
[12:00]  * persia notes that the chair might find the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings useful
[12:01] <NCommander> No, I know
[12:01] <NCommander> the wiki was just timing out for me
[12:01] <persia> Oh.  I'm up first, in association with ScottK, to talk about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Decisions
[12:01] <persia> Then comes LaserJock and I to talk about wnpp for Ubuntu.
[12:01] <persia> Then it's AOB.
[12:02] <NCommander> [TOPIC] MOTU Decisions
[12:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Decisions
[12:02]  * NCommander gives the floor to persia
[12:02] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Decisions
[12:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Decisions
[12:03] <persia> So, we've been using a new decision system for the past couple months.
[12:03] <persia> ScottK has documented it at the link above.
[12:03] <persia> When we established it, we did so on a provisional basis, to determine how it worked for us.
[12:04] <persia> So, the question is: how does it work for us?  Do we want to return to rule-by-those-who-attend-MOTU-Meetings?  Do we want to keep this long-term?
[12:04] <persia> One item of note is that we've not had MOTU Meetings in a while.  It's probably worth discussing whether that's positive, negative, or a side effect of September and October.
[12:04] <Hobbsee> well, how much success have we had with this new system?
[12:04] <NCommander> My two cents on the matter is that when things go the list, it often seems to stagment
[12:05] <persia> Hobbsee, We took one decision with it.
[12:05] <NCommander> I thought we took more than just one.
[12:05] <mok0> I think the procedure has to be faster for trivial decisions
[12:05] <NCommander> Define trivial decisions
[12:06] <persia> mok0, So something like taking decisions in the meeting if it seems trivial and appointing a judge for the next fortnight if it's not?
[12:06] <mok0> NCommander: day-to-day decisions that everyone would agree on
[12:06] <mok0> persia: yes
[12:06] <NCommander> I would agree. With things like policy changes, constitution drafting, etc, we should use the current system
[12:07] <NCommander> But for trival day to day matters, I think the meetings is a good place for it
[12:07] <persia> And simple action items, announcements, doc changes, etc. would be decided in a MOTU Meeting?
[12:07] <mok0> persia: yes
[12:07] <NCommander> Sounds about right
[12:07] <persia> Any dissent?
[12:08] <NCommander> None here
[12:08]  * Hobbsee raises hand
[12:08] <Hobbsee> MOTU meetings still don't ahve high turnout at all
[12:08] <Hobbsee> their frequency means that I suspect any decision for there takes even longer to make
[12:08] <persia> That's true.  Do you think they'll have higher turnout if there's some discussion and decisions taken?
[12:08] <mok0> Perhaps the conditions could be even tighter: only if there is not consensus at the meeting, the elaborate procedure would be used
[12:09] <persia> mok0, For small attendance, I'd suggest that even in some cases where there is consensus we should use the elaborate procedure, unless we decide to not use it at all.
[12:09] <NCommander> If an action from a meeting is disagreed upon, then it will get discussioned when the meeting notes are published
[12:09] <mok0> persia: sounds about right.
[12:10] <Hobbsee> persia: which then adds more time.
[12:10] <NCommander> Generally speaking, we can decide an issue in a meeting, and if there is no dissent on the list, it should become policy
[12:10] <mok0> I am concerned that meetings will be reduced to a formality, which will impede our ability to act
[12:10] <persia> Hobbsee, Well, yeah.  I'm not a fan of time, but your point about attendance is a good one.
[12:10] <persia> mok0, I think that's where we are now, and I think that's why nobody attends most meetings.
[12:11] <NCommander> Well, it seems for me we've had less and less people showing up for these things
[12:11] <mok0> Perhaps we could simply set a lower limit on acceptable attendance for the meeting to be able to decide stuff
[12:11] <NCommander> When I first came, we used to have a good user base
[12:11] <Hobbsee> persia: based on the recent consistently low attendance, i feel that anything along the lines of "propose something at a meeting, then do the list process" is just going to take extra time - the time in between when the issue is raised, and the meeting is held
[12:11] <NCommander> mok0, we have four people active at this meeting ....
[12:11] <Hobbsee> + any deferrals, due to almost no one turning up
[12:11] <Hobbsee> NCommander: out of what, 80?
[12:12] <persia> Hobbsee, I see what you're saying.
[12:12] <sebner> NCommander: I'm now also here, finally (though I'm not a MOTU)
[12:12] <Hobbsee> persia: and I don't see that as being simpler at all.
[12:12] <NCommander> Hobbsee, well, we've personally discussed the issue of "active MOTU" before, but another time another place
[12:12] <Hobbsee> persia: I agree with your general logic, though - if the meetings were actually better attended.
[12:12] <persia> Hobbsee, How I'm understanding mok0's proposal is different: that one can raise something on the ML or the list, but that a decision is taken in the ML if trivial, or the longer procedure is continued if non-trivial.
[12:12] <NCommander> Wait
[12:12] <NCommander> Hold on, why don't we address the bigger problem
[12:13] <mok0> I have not been good at showing up. But democracy is about participation, so I can't complain if decisions were made that I didn't like
[12:13] <NCommander> Why is attendence at the meetings so poor
[12:13] <sebner> NCommander: maybe a lot still think it's only for MOTUs?
[12:13] <persia> Well, part of that is announcements.  We need someone who can count days to volunteer to send announcements.
[12:13]  * persia is notoriously bad at that
[12:13] <NCommander> sebner, I attended these before I was an MOTU, and we've had other ones do it
[12:13] <NCommander> persia, we need a meeting bot :-)
[12:13] <mok0> persia: a cron script?
[12:13] <Hobbsee> NCommander: a lot of the time, it appears that MOTU are bad at deciding things - and often meetings such as this are filled with waffle / discussion
[12:14] <sebner> NCommander: there is/was one O_o
[12:14] <persia> mok0, Sure.  Do you want to implement/host it?
[12:14] <Hobbsee> a lot of people seem to not care one way or the other
[12:14] <NCommander> Well, we cite 80 MOTUs, but how many of those are seriously active?
[12:14] <mok0> persia: yes
[12:14] <persia> mok0, Thank you.
[12:14] <StevenK> NCommander: Half. Ish.
[12:14] <NCommander> I'd say even less
[12:14] <sebner> NCommander: maybe 30
[12:14] <StevenK> You can't give a hard answer.
[12:14] <NCommander> RIght
[12:15] <StevenK> Peoples time constraints may change on a week to week basis
[12:15] <sebner> The general way is to wait until auto expire,hmm?
[12:15] <NCommander> Well, maybe we need a better way to set meeting times
[12:15] <persia> sebner, No.  Some people choose to leave.
[12:15] <StevenK> sebner: "Now, beg"
[12:15] <NCommander> I missed the last two because they are so freaking inconvenient
[12:15] <StevenK> (To be extended)
[12:15] <persia> NCommander, The trick is that we're all over the world.  Every time is bad for most of us.
[12:16] <sebner> persia: some
[12:16] <StevenK> s/most/some/
[12:16]  * StevenK high fives sebner
[12:16]  * sebner high fives StevenK back =)
[12:16] <NCommander> persia, right, but it just seems to me the times are a little arbitrarily
[12:16] <persia> Fine.  Some.
[12:16] <persia> NCommander, Oh, completely.  I picked them because they are round numbers.
[12:16] <NCommander> Maybe if we regulate times to periods where a large group of MOTU is online, we'd get better turnouts
[12:17] <persia> Nobody has ever made a serious effort to change them since I picked them.
[12:17] <persia> (this has been a long time now, since before I was MOTU)
[12:17] <NCommander> Well, looking at the MOTU map
[12:17] <mok0> NCommander: good idea...
[12:17] <NCommander> Its largely three chunks of time periods. THose in Austrilian/Japnese team
[12:17] <NCommander> Those in European time
[12:17] <NCommander> And those in American time zones
[12:18] <mok0> What time is it now in Aussie?
[12:18] <persia> Moderated by the fact that some people have time in the day, and some in the evenings.
[12:18] <sebner> But this is something we can't change as long as we want a meeting "together"
[12:18] <Hobbsee> mok0: 11:28pm
[12:18] <persia> It's between 20:18 and 23:18 in Australia.
[12:18] <Hobbsee> (aest, anyway)
[12:18] <NCommander> sebner, and mok0 where are you based
[12:18] <mok0> Europe
[12:19] <NCommander> HRm
[12:19]  * sebner high fives mok0
[12:19] <sebner> ^^
[12:19] <NCommander> I think we need to bring this to the list, and work out periods groups of people are most online
[12:19] <NCommander> And then cycle the time for the meetings
[12:19] <sebner> NCommander: europe, 01:19 pm
[12:19] <NCommander> One time favoring americans, then the next one, favoring Europe, and again favoring the Austraillians
[12:19] <NCommander> It might help get better turnout
[12:19] <Hobbsee> NCommander: meetings have to actually be a good use of time for people to come to, though.
[12:20] <NCommander> Its pointless to have a meeting if no one can attend
[12:20] <mok0> NCommander: you got that right
[12:20]  * NCommander wonders if we're approaching a catch-22
[12:20] <persia> That was loosely what I was shooting for with the three current times.
[12:21] <mok0> I haven't really seen anyone complaining about the times. We all know that it is inherently difficult
[12:21] <persia> Well, the Pacific is wide.  Wouldn't be bad to move 04:00 UTC to 06:00 UTC, I suspect.
[12:21] <sebner> persia: would be better for europe, though I still sleep at that time :P
[12:22] <mok0> The agenda is know before the meeting, so if you have something you REALLY want to say, you can do it before the meeting
[12:22] <NCommander> persia, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have staff privilleges in ~motu. I would recommend creating a poll with various times in UTC, and we could work out what times are best available for people
[12:22] <persia> sebner, And not terribly worse for americas I think.
[12:22] <sebner> persia: yep
[12:22] <persia> NCommander, That's been tried.  It was never successful.  I can do that, but I think it's better to just agree on some, using either decision process.
[12:22] <mok0> NCommander: Allow me to hypothesize that the results will cluster in three groups :-)
[12:23] <NCommander> mok0, no that I know, but we can use the average of those three clusters to work out the best times for the majorities
[12:23] <NCommander> I know with Kubuntu
[12:23]  * sebner is wondering how other world wide communities work on that problem
[12:23] <NCommander> When we decide to have a meeting, we poll people who are online, and then use a website to determine the common time periods
[12:23] <NCommander> We don't schedule our meeting too far in advance
[12:23] <persia> I *really* don't like that suggestion.
[12:24] <mok0> Most of us are awake at least 16 hours a day, so at any given time we should be able to get 2/3 of all MOTUs to participate
[12:24] <persia> Last time we did that, we didn't have a MOTU Meeting for two months.
[12:24] <NCommander> persia, no, I'm just saying how Kubuntu does it
[12:24] <NCommander> With Xubuntu, our meetings usually decided upon happening five minutes before we did them <g>
[12:24] <persia> Yes, I'm just stating opposition.
[12:24] <sebner> mok0: I sleep at least 10 hours per day ^^
[12:24] <mok0> sebner: you are awake now, right?
[12:24] <persia> sebner, Don't worry.  There are others who make up your average.
[12:24] <sebner> mok0: it's midday ;)
[12:25] <sebner> persia: heh, sure
[12:25] <NCommander> Now if we decide to adjust the times, we need to decide what these meetings are for
[12:26] <mok0> At this meeting, we have people from Australia, Europe, and US(?)
[12:26] <sebner> mok0: I think we have the same time zone \o/
[12:26] <persia> mok0, Yes.
[12:26] <NCommander> Its been somewhat -EUNDEFINED in purpose since the change in voting
[12:26] <mok0> sebner: we are
[12:26] <NCommander> mok0, its 7:26 my time EST
[12:26] <sebner> cool =)
[12:27] <NCommander> I think we have two distinct but overlapping issues. How to improve member meeting attendence, and futhermore, what, if anything these meetings are for if we stay with the current voting system
[12:27] <mok0> So 13:UTC would make it more convenient for you, but less convenient for Hobbsee
[12:28]  * Hobbsee doesnt' really mind
[12:28] <Hobbsee> not like i add much to the meetings anyway :)
[12:28] <persia> Well, with the current system, we're supposed to discuss issues on the ML at the meeting, and appoint judges, but we haven't done that, despite many discussions that haven't reached useful conclusion.
[12:28] <mok0> Hobbsee: we like to have you around :-)
[12:28] <NCommander> persia, I disagree
[12:28] <NCommander> persia, the SRU policy was worked out mostly through meetings, even if we didn't completely conclude it here
[12:29] <NCommander> er, keyteam
[12:29] <NCommander> The biggest problem is these meetings are just a tad open ended. When we set something must be done, we made great progress during the KeyTeam discussion
[12:29] <persia> NCommander, Right.  I'm talking about the debdiffs discussion, the REVU Upload permissions discussion, the upstream contributions discussion, etc.
[12:30] <persia> WIth the old system, those would have been MOTU Meeting topics.  With the new system they are ML topics, but haven't been coming here to get a judge.
[12:30] <mok0> The only solution is to keep discussing until consensus is reached
[12:30] <persia> Well, we don't need complete consensus, just rough consensus.
[12:30] <mok0> Sure
[12:30] <NCommander> Personally, I think these issues should be decided and discussed here, post it to the list
[12:31] <NCommander> I feel that most of us are fairly like minded on a lot of issues (i.e., 6-7 people is a good sample size for 30-40 active MOTU)
[12:31] <persia> OK.  It's getting on, and I've other topics.
[12:31] <NCommander> Ok, I guess we're tabling the "Do we like the new method" discussion :-P!
[12:32] <mok0> Summary on this discussion?
[12:32] <persia> Well, I'm not wanting to table it, so much as I think we've covered a lot of it.
[12:32] <sebner> half an over is already over =)
[12:32] <persia> To me it sounds like most people agree with mok0, but that attendance is a concern, and that we have to balance that when taking decisions.
[12:33] <NCommander> We could comprise
[12:33] <NCommander> How about MOTU meetings can decide on trival issues
[12:33] <NCommander> But allow a good grace period for people to object on the list
[12:33] <mok0> Look, there is no rule saying we can't revise a decision at a later time
[12:33] <persia> Or just allow disputed decisions to be rediscussed.
[12:33] <NCommander> If there is an objection, the change is suspended until a comprise can be made on the list, or the objection is removed.
[12:34]  * NCommander thinks we all just said the same thing
[12:34] <persia> Right
[12:34] <persia> mok0, Would you be willing to write up your proposal and judge consensus on the ML?
[12:34] <mok0> sure
[12:34] <NCommander> [ACTION] mok0 to write up MOTU meeting decision policy
[12:34] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mok0 to write up MOTU meeting decision policy
[12:35] <NCommander> [TOPIC]Discuss usefulness of a wnpp package for use with Ubuntu ITPs
[12:35] <MootBot> New Topic: Discuss usefulness of a wnpp package for use with Ubuntu ITPs
[12:35]  * NCommander points to persia
[12:35] <persia> OK. So LaserJock suggested that Ubuntu ought have a wnpp package, but has very limited time availability, so I'm presenting.
[12:36] <NCommander> I personally don't see the point
[12:36] <persia> The idea would be to move all the needs-packaging bugs against wnpp as an aid to triaging, and to more closely align with Debian, who uses the fake wnpp package for such things.
[12:36] <NCommander> All needs-packaging bugs submitted have the needs-packaging tag
[12:36] <NCommander> Which serves the same purpose
[12:37]  * Hobbsee thought the proposal was to put them on brainstorm
[12:37] <sebner> persia: benefits?
[12:37]  * NCommander thinks brainstorm is a worse idea
[12:37]  * sebner agrees
[12:37] <persia> The primary advantages are that 1) it reduces noise in the bugs-without-a-package set, which helps bugsquad, 2) it makes it easier for automated systems to link bugs between Malone and the BTS, and 3) It helps build shared terminology, which may increase packages uploaded to Debian.
[12:38] <persia> As an example, it would be convenient to be able to do a quick search for "bugs not fixed upstream" on wnpp, which would show targets for adoption and introduction to Debian.
[12:38] <NCommander> Are the LP developers willing to implement such a system?
[12:39] <persia> Hobbsee, This was proposed, but that means *less* tracking, and less coordination.  To me it's tantamount to saying "We don't actually care about these, and are trying to ignore them".
[12:39] <sebner> sounds reasonable
[12:39] <persia> NCommander, Dunno.  I'm not going to ask LP about fake packages unless MOTU wants it.
[12:39] <persia> That said, if LP can't do it, uploading a very small fake package isn't hard.
[12:40] <NCommander> I personally don't see a lot of point in doing it.
[12:40] <sebner> persia: what would happen to the existing needs-packaging bugs? deleted? moved? remain?
[12:40] <NCommander> sebner, we can move them to a package easily enough
[12:40] <sebner> NCommander: there are tons of them though
[12:41] <NCommander> sebner, they're all tagged needs-packaging, a LP admin can kick the DB if needs be
[12:41] <sebner> NCommander: ok sound good
[12:41] <persia> sebner, But the bugsquad will be *very* happy to help, since they currently have to ignore them on a daily basis, and it makes it harder for them to do their work.
[12:41] <NCommander> persia, can't you hid bugs tagged?
[12:41] <persia> NCommander, Not easily.
[12:41] <mok0> How will it work with linking to Debian ITP bugs?
[12:41] <NCommander> Well, two other points
[12:42] <NCommander> Why not simply have a project
[12:42] <persia> mok0, bugs against package "wnpp" in Ubuntu would link against bugs against package "wnpp" in Debian.
[12:42] <NCommander> i.e. like Ubuntu Backporters
[12:42] <NCommander> They're out of the way for instance
[12:42] <persia> Because people file bugs against "Ubuntu" for them now, and most of the needs-packaging bugs aren't filed by developers.
[12:42] <mok0> persia: but that wouldn't be really useful, because both have hundreds of bugs
[12:42] <NCommander> persia, I also don't know the usefulness of linking against ITPs
[12:42] <NCommander> A *lot* of ITPs get filed and then just sit there
[12:43] <mok0> NCommander: keeping track of information is never bad
[12:43] <persia> mok0, Well, it's useful for statistical purposes, but I agree it's not as useful as it is for many packages.
[12:43] <NCommander> In addition, if we're going to track against ITPs, it might be easier to just get the package to go into Debian
[12:43] <NCommander> We just need a DD or two who is willing to sponsor uploads on a regular basis
[12:43] <mok0> NCommander: that is not a bad idea
[12:44] <persia> NCommander, The point of linking is that the bugtrackers can automatically identify when an Ubuntu bug is closed in Debian, or when a candidate package for a Debian bug is available in Ubuntu.
[12:44] <persia> The problem with getting an upload monkey is that someone has to be the maintainer.
[12:44] <sebner> NCommander: nice idea but you know, we have DD's around but debian mentors still show a lot packages by ubuntu that are around for months
[12:44] <NCommander> sebner, unlike REVU, you actually have to kick people to look at your packages at mentors
[12:45] <NCommander> persia, Maintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Team
[12:45] <NCommander> :-P
[12:45] <NCommander> The icedove and iceape packages in Debian are Maintainer: Ubuntu Mozilla Team
[12:45] <sebner> NCommander: sure but in general there are also packages by MOTUs so DD that also work in Ubuntu could upload them without problems
[12:45] <persia> NCommander, Well, not unless that gets organised as a Debian maintainer, which is a larger issue.
[12:45] <mok0> If we were able to channel new packages via Debian it would not be a lot of extra work up front
[12:45] <NCommander> persia, organized as a Debian maintainer?
[12:46] <persia> NCommander, consensus in both Debian and Ubuntu that it makes sense.
[12:46] <NCommander> Well, Debian has Debian Maintainer status
[12:46] <persia> That's a side issue.
[12:46] <NCommander> no I mean
[12:46] <NCommander> It might be worth talking with the DPL if they are willing to look towards increased combilation between Ubuntu and Debian w.r.t. to new packages
[12:47] <persia> Anyway, let's defer the details of how we might integrate with Debian if we adopted the use of wnpp, and talk about whether we want to adopt the use of wnpp.
[12:47] <NCommander> If the packages are also listed day zero NMUable, you usually get help from the QA team
[12:48] <mok0> Isn't it better to set up a specific Project on LP, call WNPP?
[12:48] <mok0> called
[12:48] <NCommander> I think we need to sitdown with the DPL or some one of authority on Debian and see if we can find a good common ground, since -0ubuntuX packages with no Debian version just increase our burdens
[12:48] <mok0> It seems to me that "pseudopackages" are not a great thing to add to LP
[12:48] <persia> mok0, There's no way to shift bugs between distrotasks and project tasks, so that ends up with lots of "Invalid" which confuses users.
[12:49] <NCommander> persia, usability bug in Launchpad :-)
[12:49] <NCommander> wgrant, ^
[12:49] <mok0> ah. There is no such thing as a "friend" project ;-)
[12:49]  * persia doesn't mind putting together a real package documenting the Ubuntu new packages procedure and calling it "wnpp" if LP doesn't already do pseudopackages
[12:49] <wgrant> Long-standing bug which isn't going to be fixed for a while, yes.
[12:49] <persia> NCommander, Yes, but it's not going to be fixed any time soon.
[12:49] <wgrant> Wow, that synced well in the middle.
[12:50] <wgrant> LP won't let you assign a bug to a package which isn't published anywhere in the distro.
[12:50] <wgrant> So it needs to be a real package, or have a hack in RF.
[12:50] <mok0> persia: would you be able to link from a specific ITP in the wnpp package to the equivalent one in BTS?
[12:50] <persia> mok0, Yes.
[12:51] <NCommander> so
[12:51] <NCommander> What is our action on this one
[12:51] <persia> wgrant, Thanks for the clarification.  I'll probably have to chat with some people to determine if an Ubuntu-local wnpp doc package would be acceptable then.
[12:51] <NCommander> [ACTION]persia to determine if a wnpp package is acceptable
[12:51] <MootBot> ACTION received: persia to determine if a wnpp package is acceptable
[12:52]  * mok0 still thinks a project is the logical place to put this. If it doesn't currently allow us to exchange tasks, that shoulld be fixed., it should be made to work
[12:52] <StevenK> s/package/project/ ?
[12:52] <persia> Does that mean there's insufficient objection that I should proceed?
[12:52] <persia> StevenK, No, package.  LP bug.
[12:52] <mok0> persia: proceed
[12:52] <StevenK> Right. I object to a package
[12:52] <StevenK> It isn't one
[12:52] <StevenK> And I've always disliked the pseduo-packages on the Debian BTS
[12:53] <mok0> StevenK: would you mind if we have our options clarified?
[12:53] <persia> StevenK, OK.  What do you suggest?
[12:53] <StevenK> mok0: Nope.
[12:53] <StevenK> persia: Further Discussion
[12:53] <mok0> I suggest that persia goes ahead but we discuss again later
[12:54] <persia> StevenK, Before I discuss feasability and acceptance?  What needs discussion?
[12:54]  * sebner agrees
[12:55] <mok0> We need some technical input from the LP guys.
[12:55] <StevenK> Right, sorry, I am trying to do four things at once.
[12:55] <mok0> They may have their own thoughts on the matter
[12:55]  * NCommander has one final topic to bring up
[12:55] <StevenK> persia: Okay, if your action is discussion, then I withdraw my objection
[12:55] <mok0> Wait, we need to summarize
[12:55] <persia> StevenK, OK.  Thanks.
[12:56] <persia> I'll bring it back before preparing any package for REVU.
[12:56] <mok0> persia: if you are going to discuss with the LP guys, can you please ask if this could be done via a project?
[12:57] <persia> mok0, I'll ask, but I asked about fixing that bug about two or three weeks ago, and was definitely told it wasn't a priority.
[12:57] <mok0> I think most agree that it would be good to remove ITP from the bug list, but let's not decide on the implementation
[12:58] <mok0> Perhaps we can decide the former?
[12:58] <NCommander> ACK
[12:59] <persia> I don't want to do that.
[12:59] <persia> It's precisely contrary to the item I brought to the meeting.
[12:59] <persia> I like using bugs for packaging requests.
[13:00] <NCommander> persia, I think he means bugs against the Ubuntu project, not removing bugs period
[13:00] <mok0> persia: don't you mean: "I like using LP to track packaging requests"??
[13:00] <wgrant> Ubuntu isn't a project.
[13:00] <persia> Oh.  Yeah.  I'm good for that.
[13:00] <persia> mok0, No.  I like using bugs.  I *really* don't care if it's LP.
[13:01] <mok0> NCommander: yes that's what I meant
[13:01] <NCommander> I think the issue merits more discussion
[13:02] <mok0> +1
[13:02] <sebner> +1
[13:02] <NCommander> +1
[13:02] <NCommander> So
[13:02] <sebner> interesting idea but more discussion is appreciated
[13:02] <persia> So I'm to talk to LP and such, or not?
[13:02] <mok0> we can always agree on that, lol
[13:02] <NCommander> persia, its good to know that LP can/can't do :-)
[13:03] <mok0> persia: yes talk to LP, find out what options we have
[13:03] <wgrant> There's a conveniently placed bigjools over there ->
[13:03] <sebner> NCommander: want/don't want?  ^ ^
[13:03] <NCommander> persia, so ask the LP devs, but lets not make any changes until we know specifically need
[13:03] <persia> Well, OK, but it's always easier to talk to LP when there's an actual use case behind any discussion.
[13:04] <sebner> persia: you can tell them if it's possible, we'll do it :P
[13:04] <mok0> persia: afaiu, they need to make changes to LP no matter what
[13:05] <persia> mok0, Well, there are changes, but if we go with a non-psuedopackage, it doesn't require any LP code changes.
[13:05] <mok0> ok yes
[13:06] <mok0> the discussion section in the bug section of that package will be *huge*
[13:06] <mok0> iow unusable
[13:06] <persia> Well, more usable than what we have now, but yes, far from ideal.
[13:08] <mok0> I far prefer a separate LP project, but I think I'm alone with that wish
[13:08] <NCommander> mok0, nope
[13:08] <wgrant> If we can turn distro tasks into project tasks and vice-versa, a project would work.
[13:09] <mok0> persia: will you ask about that?
[13:10] <persia> mok0, I'll ask, but as I've said, I asked about that a couple weeks ago, and the response wasn't promising.
[13:10] <mok0> persia: tell'em we want it
[13:10] <wgrant> mok0: You forget that we're only Ubuntu.
[13:11] <persia> Right.  I'm done.
[13:11] <mok0> wgrant: one of the really big LP users, though...
[13:11] <wgrant> mok0: One would think so, yes...
[13:11] <sebner> mok0: the biggest by far?
[13:12] <mok0> NCommander: last item?
[13:12] <NCommander> [topic]REVU Usage Permissions
[13:12] <MootBot> New Topic: REVU Usage Permissions
[13:12] <NCommander> Its fairly common knowledge we have an extremely high signal to noise ratio on REVU
[13:13] <Hobbsee> we do?
[13:13]  * persia objects to this topic
[13:13] <NCommander> Ok
[13:13]  * NCommander drops the topic
[13:13] <Hobbsee> then what's with all the threads saying that things should be expired, if they're all great?
[13:13] <persia> It's a topic of current ML discussions.  Bringing it to the MOTU Meeting without prior notice doesn't satisfy the goals of discussion.
[13:13] <NCommander> Fair enough
[13:13] <NCommander> Ok, anyone else got anythign?
[13:14] <persia> Adding it to the agenda for the next meeting would be good though :)
[13:14] <NCommander> lol
[13:14] <NCommander> any final news?
[13:14] <mok0> Well we can discuss it without make decision, yes?
[13:14] <NCommander> Yes, that was the point
[13:14] <wgrant> NCommander: You mean low signal to noise?
[13:14] <NCommander> maybe
[13:15] <mok0> This is about ~6 packages about to be "expired". Those packagers probably don't care anymore
[13:15] <sebner> mok0: probably? very likely I'd say
[13:16] <mok0> OTOH, we can go over and comment on them right now...
[13:16] <mok0> It's REVUday!!
[13:17]  * persia tends to find reasons to reject packages before expiring them.  s/hardy/jaunty is always a good start
[13:17] <persia> Anyway.  Is there anything else for this meeting, or shall we reconvene at 20:00 on the 28th?
[13:18] <mok0> +1
[13:19]  * sebner agreees
[13:19] <persia> NCommander ?
[13:19] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[13:19] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:19.


[00:00] <binderclip> Ha, #unbuntu-server - 1 person here!
[00:01] <quadrathoch2> binderclip you mistyped ;)
[00:01] <oerheks> let me see, "sudo snap install multipass --classic"  and then under ubuntu 18.04 desktop, 'softwarecenter > installed > multipass > perm issions' i see
[00:01] <oerheks> https://imgur.com/gallery/t0I0c8L
[00:02] <oerheks> only homefolder.
[00:17] <binderclip> I'm using multipass on
[00:17] <binderclip> windows tho to get a linux vm on windows.
[00:17] <binderclip> I launch it from the windows command line.
[00:18] <binderclip> Don't get an UI.
[00:18] <binderclip> Just a new Linux command line.
[00:20] <binderclip> quadrathoch2 thanks yes I did mistype - trying again ...
[00:54] <oerheks> binderclip, there is #multipass too here on #freenode, office hours i think
[01:42] <oerheks> kernelupdate
[01:44] <Tarallo> Hi guys
[01:44] <Tarallo> I need an help with wine
[01:46] <Tarallo> I've a 4k monitor on my Dell and when I start every Wine application like Battle.net for example, it looks in a bad resolution
[01:46] <Tarallo> I show youa pictures
[01:47] <Tarallo> https://ibb.co/wNjMVqH
[01:48] <sarnold> does this look like what you posted? https://i.ibb.co/GvNcyDw/Schermata-da-2020-06-25-03-43-06.png
[01:48] <Tarallo> yes
[01:48] <sarnold> it's only a few hundred pixels, I can't read anything there, and could only guess at three or four of the icons :)
[01:50] <Tarallo> what do you mean? can't you reconize anything of the picture?
[01:50] <sarnold> you said you've got a 4k monitor but that image is 640x360 pixels
[01:50] <sarnold> so I'm curious if the screenshot is *actually* that size
[01:51] <sarnold> or if this image host has done something silly :)
[01:51] <Tarallo> haha wait maybe is the host
[01:51] <Tarallo> where can I share it to show you?
[01:52] <Tarallo> tell me a good hosting site to share it please
[01:53] <limbo_> imgur?
[01:53] <Tarallo> ok thx
[01:56] <Tarallo> https://imgur.com/a/EtZTXIb
[01:56] <Tarallo> works now?
[01:57] <sarnold> oh yeah! that's beautiful
[01:58] <Tarallo> haha nice, like you see it has a very bad resolution
[01:58] <Tarallo> compared with the rest of course
[01:59] <sarnold> certainly the text is a bit tiny compared to eg the date and time, temperature, title bars, etc
[02:00] <sarnold> Tarallo: can you run winecfg to fix it?
[02:01] <Tarallo> sure, but on winecfg I already raised up the DPI
[02:02] <Tarallo> and if you can see from this other screenshot they are completely different in resolution
[02:02] <Tarallo> look
[02:03] <Tarallo> https://imgur.com/OIjKGUg
[02:10] <Tarallo> @sarnold Still there?
[02:12] <sarnold> Tarallo: yeah
[02:12] <Tarallo> If you see I posted another screen
[02:19] <webwiz> quit
[02:20] <sarnold> Tarallo: I don't actually know the winecfg tool, I just heard that you could set the DPI within it.. I'd guess the grafica tab perhaps?
[02:25] <Tarallo> @sarnold: Do you mean Graphics Tab of my System?
[02:26] <sarnold> Tarallo: yes
[02:27] <Tarallo> It is already set to the right resolution for my monitor: 3840 x 2160 (16:9)
[02:29] <Tarallo> Itried also to set to a less resolution like 2560 x 1440 but the app is always in that bad resolution
[02:35] <sarnold> Tarallo: bummer :( sorry, that was all I had :(
[02:36] <Tarallo> oh, ok, thanks then
[02:36] <Tarallo> I thin that a VM will solve the problem
[02:37] <Tarallo> with Windows emulated of course
[02:37] <Tarallo> what do you thunk?
[02:37] <sarnold> hopefully there's something less drastic :)
[02:38] <sarnold> there is a #winehq channel -- they may have suggestions
[02:38] <sarnold> (it might also start with "uninstall the wine you're using now", hehe)
[02:41] <Jordan_U> Tarallo: What version of Ubuntu are you using? I second the recommendation to ask in #winehq , and they will probably want you to follow https://wiki.winehq.org/Ubuntu to install the latest upstream version, which for HiDPI support is probably a good idea.
[02:43] <Tarallo> Jordan_U I really thank you, but I'm thinking now that a better solution would be to install a VM with Windows and it will be more compatible with everything
[02:44] <Tarallo> And thank you sarnold for your time
[02:52] <lp2skyline> Hi I just installed Ubuntu, I have audio with speakers that are built in my laptop, but when I plug headphones in, no sound
[03:18] <lotuspsychje> !sound | lp2skyline start here
[03:18] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: see also pavucontrol to debug sound issues
[03:20] <lp2skyline> lotuspsychje, pavucontrol shows the headphones as being plugged in but nothing comes out
[03:20] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: sudo lshw -C sound, shows driver loaded?
[03:21] <lp2skyline> yeah. The speakers work fine
[03:23] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: do you have other sound hardware that could interfere?
[03:23] <lp2skyline> No. This same setup works in every other distro I've used.
[03:24] <lp2skyline> It's a very basic setup. It's just a laptop sound chip
[03:24] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: allrighty, wich ubuntu/kernel version is this please?
[03:24] <lp2skyline> 5.4.0-39-generic
[03:24] <lp2skyline> 20.04
[03:25] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: did you sound work on other versions/kernels of ubuntu before?
[03:25] <lp2skyline> Yes from what I recall. I don't remember which but I did run Ubuntu for a good while on this machine.
[03:26] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: ok tnx, could you share your dmesg in a pastebin please?
[03:27] <lp2skyline> lotuspsychje, the entire thing?
[03:28] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: yes plz
[03:28] <lp2skyline> https://pastebin.com/freYdDZH lotuspsychje
[03:36] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: what kind of graphics in your alienware?
[03:36] <lp2skyline> GTX 1070
[03:37] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: nvidia-smi to check wich driver loaded please?
[03:37] <lp2skyline> it's nouveau.
[03:37] <lp2skyline> Never caused an issue before, though.
[03:38] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: oh, is that a hybrid card with intel?
[03:39] <lp2skyline> lotuspsychje, no, pure Nvidia.
[03:39] <lp2skyline> It's complicated to explain, the Nvidia card is directly connected to the screen though.
[03:40] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: ok, lets try 2 things, try to switch to nvidia driver to see if it influences your sound, and try a previous kernel version too as a test
[03:40] <lp2skyline> I just installed Ubuntu 3 hours ago, there is no previous kernel :P
[03:40] <lp2skyline> lemme go switch to Nvidia though.
[03:41] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: i found snd_hda_intel 0000:01:00.1: Disabling MSI
[03:41] <lotuspsychje> but not sure its related to your mic
[03:42] <lp2skyline> lotuspsychje, same thing
[03:42] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: need to reboot for graphics switch
[03:42] <lp2skyline> Except I can adjust my brightness now, which is nice :P
[03:42] <lp2skyline> I did reboot o.o
[03:43] <lp2skyline> What.
[03:43] <lp2skyline> I unmuted my mic and the headphones started having sound
[03:43] <lotuspsychje> : )
[03:43] <lp2skyline> How are those 2 correlated?????
[03:44] <lp2skyline> The mic is muted again and I still have sound
[03:44] <lotuspsychje> that happens when graphics influence HD sound
[03:44] <lp2skyline> I'm so confused but it works now so I'm fine
[03:44] <lp2skyline> Thank you!
[03:45] <lotuspsychje> welcome lp2skyline
[03:45] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: you might also check your cpu in bios, dmesg showing cpu rises
[03:45] <lp2skyline> Oh don't worry that's normal.
[03:45] <lotuspsychje> ok :p
[03:46] <lp2skyline> You mean the temps right? That's normal.
[03:46] <lp2skyline> This model is notorious for awful temps I have to cap them with thermald
[03:46] <lotuspsychje> mce: CPU0: Package temperature above threshold, cpu clock throttled (total events = 2767)
[03:46] <lp2skyline> Yeah it hits 100C often
[03:46] <lotuspsychje> lp2skyline: anyway, might be nice to find yourself a nouveau/sound bug to get affected on
[04:55] <sonataaaugh> I'm trying to install 20.04 and it's having some sort of problem with i think ?the bootloader?
[04:55] <sonataaaugh> to be absolutely clear, i'm not trying to do anything _fancy_
[04:56] <sonataaaugh> i just want it to wipe the entire physical device clean and install ubuntu and nothing else
[04:56] <sonataaaugh> i don't want to preserve my existing anything and i don't want to set up dual-boot
[04:56] <sonataaaugh> AND YET this is somehow difficult!
[04:57] <sonataaaugh> It seemed to install normally, but when I tried to boot I got:
[04:57] <sonataaaugh> Booting `Load Operating System'
[04:57] <sonataaaugh> Failed to boot both default and fallback entries.
[04:58] <sonataaaugh> Googled that, got directed to grub-customize, which also failed.
[05:01] <sonataaaugh> Can't remember what the specific failure was, but we'll get back to that.
[05:01] <sonataaaugh> boot-repair also fails. https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/6xXh5Q8j9v/
[05:02] <sonataaaugh> I would like to emphasize that this is already *way* more getting-into-the-deep-black-magic than should be necessary for the task of "literally just install ubuntu".
[05:06] <sonataaaugh> found grub-customizer (it was in multiverse).
[05:07] <sonataaaugh> grub-mkconfig couldn't be executed successfully. error message: /usr/sbin/grub-probe: error: failed to get canonical path of `cow'.
[05:12] <sonataaaugh> okay, this looks very slightly promising... https://i.imgur.com/sJGRMmF.png
[05:14] <sonataaaugh> ...so, now what? https://imgur.com/2SqA59W
[05:14] <sonataaaugh> (sdb is the liveusb)
[05:15] <sonataaaugh> please help
[05:17] <sonataaaugh> someone please talk to me i feel like i'm going crazy
[05:19] <n00bster> hello! i installed my first linux distro :)
[05:19] <sonataaaugh> congrats!
[05:23] <sonataaaugh> hello testing can anyone hear me
[05:23] <sonataaaugh> ping
[05:37]  * sonataaaugh_ switches to hexchat in case that helps
[05:38] <sonataaaugh> anyway, it would be great if anyone would acknowledge that i exist and my messages aren't just disappearing into the ether
[05:56] <Andrio> sonataaaugh, henlo
[05:57] <sonataaaugh> hi thank you
[07:34] <egrain> how do i change the nameserver via terminal. /etc/resolv.conf is just a link as you probably know and in the /run/resolve.. thing is just some systemd stuff.
[07:37] <byroniac> egrain, I am not sure but would "man systemd-resolved" help you any?
[07:40] <byroniac> If you are were using netplan you could do some things in it, and on Ubuntu 20.04 there is this server help: https://ubuntu.com/server/docs/network-configuration
[07:40] <egrain> this is really weird: PING <IP_ADDRESS> (<IP_ADDRESS>) 56(84) bytes of data.  /    From <IP_ADDRESS> icmp_seq=1 Destination Net Unreachable
[07:41] <egrain> i ping <IP_ADDRESS> but get no reply rom 62.155?
[07:41] <egrain> what?
[07:42] <byroniac> What do you mean "from <IP_ADDRESS>"?
[07:43] <egrain> here, check it out:
[07:43] <byroniac> I cannot get anything back when I ping either address
[07:44] <egrain> https://pastebin.com/zuUYHF3v
[07:45] <ducasse> egrain: it means <IP_ADDRESS> is on the route to <IP_ADDRESS>, but has no route for that network
[07:45] <egrain> ohh
[07:45] <egrain> things i never knew.
[07:45] <egrain> it's my nameserver there though.
[07:45] <egrain> how do i change it?
[07:46] <egrain> in terminal
[07:46] <ducasse> "Destination Net Unreachable" means "i have no route for that"
[07:46] <byroniac> well, there is probably a much better way than the way I do it
[07:47] <egrain> elsewhere i edit /etc/resolv.conf.
[07:47] <egrain> systemd seems weird.
[07:47] <byroniac> first what do you get when you do "nslookup <IP_ADDRESS> <IP_ADDRESS>"
[07:49] <egrain> <IP_ADDRESS>.in-addr.arpa	name = p3e9bf3a2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de.
[07:49] <egrain> Authoritative answers can be found from: .... nothing, it seems.
[07:50] <egrain> yeah, returns straight back to terminal.
[07:50] <byroniac> On my Ubuntu 20.04 /etc/resolv.conf actually points to /run/systemd/resolve/stub-resolv.conf so what I do is cd to /run/systemd/resolve/ and I do a "cp -v stub-resolv.conf stub-resolv.conf.save" and then do a "sudo nano stub-resolv.conf" and change the <IP_ADDRESS> to some public DNS like <IP_ADDRESS> or <IP_ADDRESS>. There has got to be a better way, though. But I am on NetworkManager not netplan.
[07:50] <egrain> byroniac, sudoedit is better.
[07:50] <byroniac> I mean "sudo cp -v stub-resolv.conf stub-resolv.conf.save" in that folder
[07:50] <egrain> instead of sudo nano.
[07:51] <byroniac> oh, thank you. I didn't know about it
[07:51] <egrain> just some security thing.
[07:51] <egrain> anyway, fumbling about with internal systemd files doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
[07:52] <egrain> especially since i need that machine running the next reboot as well, without me editing it again.
[07:52] <byroniac> I have a CLI VPN client that clobbers my /etc/resolv.conf with one it creates and I have to keep recreating the symlink (arrrghhh)
[07:52] <byroniac> yes I agree
[07:52] <byroniac> Hmmm hang on
[07:53] <byroniac> I think you can do this in the Settings | Network GUI
[07:53] <byroniac> sudo nm-connection-edit if you are on NetworkManager like I am
[07:54] <byroniac> "sudo nmcli" has a lot more CLI options
[07:54] <ducasse> byroniac: you can be on both NetworkManager and netplan, netplan just generates configs to be rendered by nm or networkd
[07:55] <byroniac> oh ok
[07:55] <byroniac> cool
[07:55] <byroniac> thx
[07:55] <ducasse> egrain: if you are using nm there is a way to input additional dns servers
[07:56] <egrain> i don't know what i'm using. the default stuff.
[07:56] <egrain> i didn't cahnge anything.
[07:56] <egrain> nm seems to be thee though.
[07:57] <byroniac> ok it's late for me. bye all. have fun.
[07:57] <ducasse> egrain: do you have any files in /etc/netplan/?
[07:58] <egrain> no.
[07:58] <egrain> it's network manager i have it there, in german no less
[07:59] <egrain> "kabelgebundene Verbindung". it's everything in there.
[07:59] <egrain> i'll edit it and do systemctl restart networkmanager?
[07:59] <egrain> restart nm?
[07:59] <egrain> what do i restart?
[08:00] <ducasse> network-manager.service
[08:01] <egrain> no.
[08:01] <egrain> caps!
[08:01] <egrain> why?
[08:01] <egrain> NetworkManger...
[08:01] <egrain> anyway, thanks.
[08:01] <egrain> ping evilemp... i mean google works.
[08:01] <ducasse> you don't need to use caps in the service name
[08:02] <egrain> oh, if i do .server after, you mean?
[08:02] <egrain> because sudo systemctl restart networkmanager / Failed to restart networkmanager.service: Unit networkmanager.service not found.
[08:02] <egrain> that worked though: sudo systemctl restart NetworkManager
[08:08] <ducasse> there's a - in the first one
[08:08] <ducasse> look what i wrote above
[08:10] <egrain> saw.
[08:10] <egrain> weird. why would there be two?
[08:10] <egrain> anyway, i have another question if you have the time.
[08:12] <ducasse> sure
[08:19] <egrain> booted and was greated by this: https://i.imgur.com/30CKRpa.png
[08:19] <egrain> it says data backup and data. each has one notification.
[08:19] <egrain> just click on it to read it and we are good to go? or do i have to do something there?
[08:22] <ducasse> i have no idea, tbh, but i doubt they're critical
[08:23] <egrain> me neither. i told them to click on it and keep going.
[08:24] <ducasse> which desktop was that?
[08:24] <egrain> the one with the nameserver issue.
[08:24] <egrain> Linux lala 4.15.0-106-generic #107-Ubuntu SMP Thu Jun 4 11:27:52 UTC 2020 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[08:24] <ducasse> no, i mean kde, gnome or what?
[08:24] <egrain> gnome, i think.
[08:24] <egrain> the default one.
[08:25] <egrain> i don't change stuff i don't want to touch.
[08:26] <ducasse> right, if you hang around here maybe someone else knows, it's quiet this time of day
[08:28] <egrain> shouldn't be an issue. they'll click on it, if it's something they don't understand they'll sent me picture again.
[08:28] <egrain> otherwise the nameserver works again, all good.
[08:28] <egrain> thanks for your help.
[08:29] <ducasse> you're welcome
[08:32] <ducasse> egrain: anything else we can help with?
[08:35] <egrain> not at the moment, i think. thanks though. i'll be back when something comes up.
[08:39] <ducasse> that's what we're here for :)
[09:20] <ferz> Hi
[09:29] <ferz> I've to connect a device via ethernet port without dhcp, just a fixed IP address for my laptop and for device: <IP_ADDRESS> is  the address of the device.
[09:29] <ferz> I've  tried using the network manager interface but no ping works from laptop to device.
[09:29] <ferz> How can I free enp14s0 interface from ubuntu control and set it using ifconfig?
[09:31] <ducasse> which release?
[09:31] <ducasse> ferz: ^^
[09:32] <ferz> 20.04 LTS (Focal Fossa)
[09:33] <ducasse> install net-tools and write an interfaces file
[09:33] <ducasse> or just use netplan
[09:33] <ferz> why ifconfig is not good enough?
[09:33] <ducasse> it's deprecated
[09:34] <ferz> Why simple and ancient tools are deprecated?
[09:49] <andi_> hello, can somebody tell me what the cnf is regarding ubuntu mirrors? and what i'm doing wrong if i host my local mirror with this apt-mirror list? https://paste.xinu.at/5KqBUu/ if i do a apt-update i get a failed to fetch focal/main/cnf/Commands-amd64
[10:06] <ferz> on my laptop netplan config uses renderer: NetworkManager while on netplan.io example there is networkd
[10:06] <ferz> Which is the difference?
[10:08] <eraserpencil> hello, I'm on Ubuntu 20.04, and have an odd audio jack behavior. I have speakers hooked up to my laptop via a 3.5mm jack. On my laptop, whenever audio is stopped, I get a buzzing noise. happens when youtube is switching between videos, happens at the end of video calls.
[10:55] <funnybunny2> I have Ubuntu 18.04.4 LTS. Has kernel 5.4 been released?
[10:57] <funnybunny2> I want to upgrade to 20.04 LTS. Are there any issues? Is it better to do a wipe and clean install?
[11:00] <lotuspsychje> !ltsupgrade | funnybunny2
[11:01] <lotuspsychje> funnybunny2: before 20.04.1 comes out there are to-solve bugs still, but that doesnt mean you cant run 20.04 propermy yet, its the users choice you see
[11:01] <lotuspsychje> *properly
[11:03] <funnybunny2> Oh, I thought 20.04 was already stable because it is the primary download on the website.
[11:04] <lotuspsychje> funnybunny2: stable yes, but its the users choice to install before point release or after
[11:04] <lotuspsychje> funnybunny2: it really depends what you find important?
[11:04] <funnybunny2> I don't understand
[11:05] <funnybunny2> I will just wait. Not in a hurry
[11:05] <lotuspsychje> funnybunny2: the lts way is like this, 18.04 users can upgrade when 20.04.1 comes out, when more bugs are solved, to have a great lts experience
[11:05] <funnybunny2> OK
[11:06] <funnybunny2> I wonder if I will have a more polluted filesystem than someone doing a clean install of 20.04
[11:06] <lotuspsychje> funnybunny2: nothing can beat clean installs
[11:07] <funnybunny2> I think I will just do a clean install
[11:07] <lotuspsychje> funnybunny2: but upgrades work pretty good too, in condition the user himself maintained his system properly
[11:07] <funnybunny2> I had a bad upgrade experience 10 years ago
[11:08] <lotuspsychje> funnybunny2: 1 bad experience doesnt have to occur on the next experience
[11:09] <funnybunny2> Yeah, you're right. I guess I will try to upgrade first since that is easier
[11:10] <Monotoko> So courier-imap seems to unhelpfully be sticking my apt-get because it's asking questions even if I run with -y
[11:10] <Monotoko> any way to skip this?
[11:10] <Monotoko> The web-based administration provided by the courier-webadmin package relies on
[11:10] <Monotoko> configuration directories instead of configuration files. If you agree, any
[11:10] <Monotoko> directories needed for the web-based administration tool will be created unless
[11:10] <Monotoko> there is already a plain file in place.
[11:10] <Monotoko> Create directories for web-based administration? [yes/no]
[11:12] <Monotoko> sorry for that, didn't realize it'd split across multiple lines...
[11:12] <funnybunny2> Does apt have a way to list all the packages I manually installed?
[11:12] <funnybunny2> This would be very useful if doing a clean install
[11:14] <funnybunny2> I found the answer here: https://askubuntu.com/questions/2389/generating-list-of-manually-installed-packages-and-querying-individual-packages
[11:14] <funnybunny2> "apt list --manual-installed" doesn't really do that
[11:19] <ph88> i had 0 bytes free on disk .. now i reboot and the boot is stuck .. how can i go into console to go free up some space ?
[11:20] <ducasse> funnybunny2: apt-mark showmanual
[11:55] <funnybunny2> ducasse: I found that googling too. It doesn't give the right answer
[11:56] <lotuspsychje> ..
[11:56] <hackinghorn> I'm dual booting ubuntu with windows. But I usually run windows. Whenever I boot, it will automatically boot Ubuntu if I dont switch in 10s. How do I change to auto Windows?
[12:13] <Cymew> Anyone know if there's a limit to "ubiquity/success_command" ? I try to do multiple things separated with sem-colons, but only some happen, and I don't see any method to the madness.
[12:14] <Cymew> hackinghorn: Check the grub config for the default boot target.
[12:17] <BluesKaj> 'Morning all
[12:18] <hackinghorn> thats a bit vague but i will try
[12:33] <ocean> !info grub-customizer
[12:34] <ocean> hackinghorn: ^^ once you install that package, you can use grub-customizer to modify your grub config (has gui)
[12:34] <hackinghorn> ocean, ehe thanks a lott
[12:36] <coconut> qwqwex
[12:39] <BluesKaj> grub-customizer can be dangerous , one mistake and you're locked out of your system, at least that was my experience, you're better off making changes in /etc/default/grub
[12:39] <lotuspsychje> hackinghorn: ^
[12:40] <BluesKaj> thanks lotuspsychje
[12:43] <hackinghorn> lotuspsychje, BluesKaj, oh nice, thanks
[12:43] <hackinghorn> lots of blue people here
[12:44] <BluesKaj> I'm not blue. my preference is the blues :-)
[13:41] <ducasse> hackinghorn: you can use grub-set-default
[13:52] <rajivmars> hi all! how to make the ubuntu dock to its default settings?
[14:04] <rajivmars>  hi all! how to make the ubuntu dock to its default settings?
[14:09] <coconut> rajivmars, omgubuntu.co.uk tells of a way doing that, but it resets more than only your dock. So this page might be worthfull reading -> https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/10/how-to-reset-ubuntu-desktop-to-default
[14:10] <rajivmars> coconut: is it touch the kernel as well?
[14:13] <coconut> rajivmars, i am not sure, i guess not... but i would wait on someone who can tell you.
[14:14] <rajivmars> coconut, i think the best solution is to use dash-to-dock rather than ubuntu-dock.
[14:14] <coconut> or google a little on that command
[14:14] <rajivmars> ok
[14:16] <rajivmars> cocnut: i have read about it but i m confused of doing it or not. i have also read the same on ask ubuntu but i m afraid of doing it.
[14:18] <rajivmars> cocnut, is there any command to reset the ubuntu-dash settings to its default other than this?
[14:19] <coconut> rajivmars, dunno i do not use gnome desktop myself
[14:20] <rajivmars> ok, by the way what are you prefer instead?
[14:22] <coconut> rajivmars, i am only an end user who got started using ubuntu mate 20.04 recently, after years of macos. But i prefer a distro with the mate desktop.
[14:23] <rajivmars> coconut, ok thats good.
[14:27] <coconut> rajivmars, yeah mate runs faster than gnome and has the look and feel of gnome in the past. I like it.
[14:38] <lp2skyline> lotuspsychje, whenever I reboot I have to unmute my mic again, is there anyway so it just.. works?
[14:48] <lp2skyline> never mind, I just rebooted and now it's working fine, didn't have to unmute my mic. I am very confused but.. it works
[15:02] <rajivmars> coconut???
[15:02] <coconut> rajivmars, yes ?
[15:03] <rajivmars> the article you have sent is work for me.
[15:03] <coconut> oh, thats positive rajivmars!
[15:03] <rajivmars> the command "dconf reset -f /" does its job pretty well. thanks!
[15:07] <coconut> rajivmars, i hope you like your gnome desktop again.
[15:08] <rajivmars> cocnut, yeah of course. actually i messed with it a little bit:) thats why i needed that.
[15:10] <coconut> that happens to all of us
[15:16] <rajivmars> coconut, yeah that is definitely the case with all of us.
[15:27] <Akuw> i cant apt-get update ubuntu lucid
[15:28] <Akuw> 404
[15:30] <hggdh> !lucid
[15:31] <Akuw> then i can download packages?
[15:31] <Akuw> cant
[15:32] <hggdh> Akuw: Lucid has been dead for 7 years (meaning NO updates, in any form)
[15:32] <Akuw> ok
[15:33] <Akuw> then i have to install 20 and use libreswan, because i need to connect to vpn but instructions talk about openswan
[15:33] <hggdh> Akuw: your best bets are: (1) upgrade to a supported version, or (2) *install* a supported version
[15:34] <hggdh> !eol | Akuw, see here
[15:34] <Akuw> but openswan is not available anymore right
[15:34] <hggdh> IDK, I do not use it
[15:34] <hggdh> !info openswan
[15:41] <coconut> !info librewan | Akuw
[15:41] <coconut> !info libreswan | Akuw
[15:41] <coconut> apt says: "Libreswan has been forked from Openswan 2.6.38, which was forked from
[15:41] <coconut>  FreeS/WAN 1.99."
[15:42] <coconut> i have no experience with it though...
[15:42] <Akuw> ok, well, i have to use source code
[16:19] <coconut> Any reason for why apt-get does not upgrade packages and had kept back, while apt does upgrade(and new install some) packages?
[16:21] <hggdh> coconut: apt... upgrade? full-upgrade? What were the options to apt you used?
[16:22] <coconut> hggdh, just normal upgrade and both without any options
[16:23] <hggdh> coconut: apt upgrade will not install *new* packages, it will only update existing ones
[16:23] <hggdh> apt full-upgrade will do both (update existing packages, install new ones)
[16:24] <hggdh> also apt upgrade will not install a new version of an installed package that requires the removal of another, installed, package
[16:24] <hggdh> please see 'man apt-get' for full differences
[16:24] <coconut> hggdh, can you or someone take a look at my paste? -> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VykkCh325T/
[16:27] <hggdh> coconut: this is... surprising, for me
[16:28] <coconut> hggdh, might it be caused by an instance of aptitude trying to upgrade?
[16:28] <coconut> (seeing i just tried that too)
[16:29] <hggdh> coconut: well, I have not used aptitude for ages. I remember it had some differences on behaviour, but I really do not remember
[16:29] <coconut> hggdh, fair enough, thank you for caring, it's appreciated!
[16:31] <omega_doom> hello. Is it possible to turn on a wifi hotspot being connected to vpn? I cannot activate it for some reason.
[16:32] <ioria> coconut, see it this helps : https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/457306/apt-get-upgrade-holds-back-a-kernel-update-what-are-the-official-instructions-f
[16:33] <ioria> coconut, basically APT::Get::Upgrade-Allow-New option enabled by default
[16:34] <coconut> thanks ioria, will read on that link, first a tea
[16:34] <ioria> ok
[16:34] <Tarallo> Hy guys
[16:34] <Tarallo> I'm using Ubuntu 20.04 on my Dell 9380 and I was wondering which would be the best memory to install a VM, the internal NVME, and SD-Card or an USB?
[16:43] <oerheks> Tarallo, why do you ask?
[16:45] <avenger> Tarallo: the SD and USB are going to be slower than an internal NVME solution, but id depends on your needs
[16:45] <avenger> *it
[16:46] <Tarallo> oerheks Because I thought that if I would install it in the internal memory it should be faster and perfoming instead of an SD or USB
[16:46] <oerheks> .. interesting
[16:46] <Tarallo> Right, that was my doubt :D
[16:46] <Ketzer> so i have Xubuntu 20.04 LTS (amd64) and i was thinking of installing the latest kernel.org stable kernel alongside the LTS stock kernel... if i do that and install by compiling and installing the deb packages, would autoremove mark the stock kernel for removal?
[16:48] <Tarallo> Thanks oerheks, I will install it in the internal NVMe
[16:51] <v0lksman> hey all!  anyone have a guide to upgrading mysql on 20.04 from 5.7 to 8.0?
[16:51] <v0lksman> I can't seem to get 5.7 to install on 20.04
[16:53] <marcogmonteiro> hi guys, how would I go about doing an apt-mark hold of all packages that match a certain name. Like if I want to hold all PHP packages like php, php-cli and the like do I have to do that one by one?
[16:54] <v0lksman> honestly forgot how horrible mysql is
[16:58] <leftyfb> v0lksman: Ubuntu 20.04 has mysql-server 8.0 by default. How did you get 5.7 on it to begin with?
[16:59] <v0lksman> leftyfb: I'm trying to get 5.7 on it so I can import a dataset and then upgrade to 8
[16:59] <leftyfb> v0lksman: don't
[17:00] <coconut> thanks for the url ioria, but i think i like to stay default with that apt config about installing new packages too.
[17:00] <leftyfb> v0lksman: setup an ubuntu 16.04 lxd container and install mysql-server there to do what you need
[17:02] <v0lksman> then how do you get 8 on 16.04?
[17:03] <leftyfb> v0lksman: don't. dump your database from 16.04, copy it to your 20.04 and import
[17:04] <v0lksman> that's how this all started...#mysql is telling me I need to go through upgrade paths
[17:05] <v0lksman> when I try to import my dump I get https://dpaste.org/0QBn
[17:05] <leftyfb> v0lksman: that makes no sense since most distro's aren't going to support installing across 3 major released of an application like mysql-server
[17:06] <leftyfb> v0lksman: https://www.percona.com/blog/2020/01/03/inconsistent-table-information-in-mysql-8-0-information_schema/
[17:06] <leftyfb> "The good news, though, is that information_schema_stats_expiry is session-variable so you can easily set it to zero for the applications which need up to date table information!"
[17:06] <v0lksman> that's what I thought...postgresql does it but they have a repo they maintain and their software will run multiple instances without collision and let you migrate between version
[17:08] <v0lksman> leftyfb: so when I dump I should just ignore those 2 tables?
[17:08] <skyliner_369> So YouTube keeps having video playback stop while the audio keeps going, making watching certain things basically impossible. I suspect it's an issue with the nvidia driver being trash, but I can't be certain. I just know that even blender will start to lag on a basic scene far ahead of where it should... also CUDA can't see my GPU so yay.
[17:09] <leftyfb> v0lksman: try it?
[17:22] <KunaPrime> hi, i'm trying to do do-release-upgrade but it fails due it not being able to install "ubuntu-minimal" i don't want ubuntu-minimal please help
[17:23] <oerheks> KunaPrime, can you paste the output when you try, on paste.ubuntu.com please?
[17:23] <oerheks> and did you start originally with ubuntu minimal?
[17:24] <KunaPrime> oerheks: i might start originally on ubuntu-minimal but i can't remember i on my system i don't have unminimize script
[17:26] <Phruis> if i want to have two URLs i want to go to one virtualhost
[17:28] <KunaPrime> oerheks: this is what is can see in apt.log : https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/qZDrctM59M/
[17:28] <KunaPrime> i don't have any package "ubuntu-minimal" installed
[17:28] <v0lksman> Phruis: in apache it would be server_alias
[17:32] <KunaPrime> here si final output from te upgrade process https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/RRQ8Msr5Mb/
[17:33] <oerheks> KunaPrime, might be worth a bugreport..
[17:33] <oerheks> !bug
[17:34] <ophi> How do you remove netplan and reinstall ifup if netplan issues prevent DNS resolution  and installation of ifupdown ?
[17:35] <leftyfb> ophi: what tutorial have you tried to follow so far?
[17:35] <Tarallo> Hi guys, I was trying to install the VM on Ubuntu 20.04 but after I started the VM comes out this popup: Failed to connect socket to '/var/run/libvirt/virtlxcd-sock': No such file or directory
[17:37] <leftyfb> ophi: you could also just ask for help with netplan
[17:37] <v0lksman> leftyfb: worked after ignoring a few mysql.* tables
[17:52] <mbuf> What is a useful resource for a newbie to get started with CLI on Ubuntu?
[17:54] <ophi> leftyfb: OK, how do you get name resolution working on Ubuntu 20.04 using netplan?  I created a netplan config file and was able to run netplan apply without error, but the new configuration did not apply.  I can ping gateway, but no DNS resolution.
[17:55] <leftyfb> ophi: pastebin your config
[17:55] <ophi> Can't, internet isn't working.
[17:55] <leftyfb> ophi: you're on the internet right now
[17:55] <leftyfb> ophi: rewrite it on this machine and post it to a pastebin service
[17:55] <ophi> using windows
[17:55] <KunaPrime> oerheks: thanks i posted bug report
[17:57] <leftyfb> ophi: also, you could probably boot into ubuntu and edit /etc/resolv.conf and temporarily get DNS working. Add: nameserver <IP_ADDRESS>
[17:59] <ophi> leftyfb:   that, it did *NOT* work
[17:59] <ophi> https://pastebin.com/18TE9fr6
[18:00] <leftyfb> ophi: what did not work?
[18:00] <ophi> leftyfb:  getting dhcp lease, no name resolution
[18:00] <leftyfb> ophi: did you add an entry in /etc/resolv.conf like I said?
[18:01] <leftyfb> ophi: actually, not add, just make sure it's the only entry for now
[18:02] <rfm> ophi, you shouldn't be getting a dhcp lease since you're specifying a static address in the netplan...
[18:02] <ophi> There are two files in /netplan, the 00-installer one and the one I pasted
[18:02] <leftyfb> ophi: did you add an entry in /etc/resolv.conf like I said?
[18:03] <leftyfb> ophi: you should not have 2 files in /etc/netplan/
[18:03] <ophi> leftyfb:  with the 00-installer, I get the aforementioned.  Without it, I get no IP addresss
[18:03] <leftyfb> ophi: did you add an entry in /etc/resolv.conf like I said?
[18:04] <ophi> leftyfb:  I tried that before coming here.
[18:04] <leftyfb> ophi: go back and try making this the only entry in /etc/resolv.conf:   nameserver <IP_ADDRESS>
[18:05] <leftyfb> ophi: I also want you to test being able to ping <IP_ADDRESS>
[18:06] <ophi> leftyfb:  ls
[18:11] <ophi> leftyfb:   Done.  With the default 00-installer script and the resolv.conf pointing to <IP_ADDRESS>, I get a DHCP lease and can ping the gateway and ping <IP_ADDRESS> returns ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
[18:12] <leftyfb> ophi: if you can't ping <IP_ADDRESS>, then your gateway/router isn't functioning properly or you're pointing to the wrong gateway ip
[18:13] <leftyfb> ophi: if you're on Windows now, then run "ipconfig" in a command prompt and check out the gateway ip
[18:15] <leftyfb> ophi: also, in the netplan config you posted above, you forgot to add: dhcp4: false  # if you want it to be a static ip. Which you probably don't if your router isn't setup to ignore than ip range for dhcp
[18:16] <leftyfb> ophi: please mv one of those config files from your netplan directory. I would suggest moving your custom config out and keeping the default. Stick with dhcp for now for troubleshooting
[18:17] <ophi> leftyfb:  <IP_ADDRESS> isn't valid on my network.  Should I put the correct IP in resolv.conf?
[18:17] <leftyfb> ophi: <IP_ADDRESS> is a public DNS server owned by Cloudflare. It is a valid ip address on the internet to be used as DNS
[18:18] <sarnold> leftyfb: quite a lot of ISPs are hilarious and broke routing to it
[18:18] <leftyfb> ophi: as I mentioned before, if you can't ping <IP_ADDRESS>, then you have problems beyond DNS
[18:18] <leftyfb> ophi: ok, then try to ping <IP_ADDRESS> or <IP_ADDRESS> or <IP_ADDRESS>
[18:19] <leftyfb> ophi: if you can't ping any of those, then you more than likely have other issues going on beyond DNS
[18:19] <ophi> leftyfb:  that's what I have, the default netplan file and the custom resolv.conf file with nameserver <IP_ADDRESS>
[18:20] <leftyfb> ophi: are you booted to ubuntu now?
[18:24] <ophi> leftyfb:  it just started working.  I read an article that said the resolv.conf change can take minutes to take effect.
[18:24] <leftyfb> ophi: the edit of the resolv.conf is only temporary. It also doesn't explain not being able to ping <IP_ADDRESS>
[18:25] <ophi> leftyfb:  I woudl prefer to disable netplan.  netplan and network manager are not great IMHO.
[18:26] <leftyfb> ophi: your issues are not related to netplan. Also, if you're running network manager(Desktop) then you should not be editing netplan or ifupdown at all
[18:26] <sarnold> leftyfb: if you can ping <IP_ADDRESS> and <IP_ADDRESS> but not <IP_ADDRESS> it's probably not worth much time trying to troublehsoot it -- just report it to your ISP and remind them how bad their network is
[18:27] <v0lksman> or leave
[18:27] <leftyfb> sarnold: they have yet to confirm they can ping any other ip's. Or half of what I have asked or suggested.
[18:28] <sarnold> leftyfb: ah. then it's probably not worth any more time at all :)
[18:28] <ophi> leftyfb:  well, at least now I was able to install ifupdown, which is half way to jettisoning netplan
[18:29] <ophi> leftyfb:  The ping thing is internal network security.
[18:29] <leftyfb> ophi: ok, good luck
[18:29] <ophi> Thanks!
[18:36] <ironpillow> when doing apt-get upgrade, I see this message: "The following packages have been kept back: linux-generic linux-headers-generic linux-image-generic netplan.io" what can I do to only upgrade netplan.io safely
[18:37] <leftyfb> ironpillow: sudo apt install netplan.io
[18:37] <ironpillow> or to get new netplan.io do I have to upgrade all those linux-* as well?
[18:38] <ironpillow> leftyfb: will that mark netplan as manually installed?
[18:38] <leftyfb> ironpillow: no
[18:39] <ironpillow> got it
[18:41] <coconut> ironpillow, your apt-get upgrade problem is someting like this? -> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VykkCh325T/
[18:43] <ironpillow> coconut: no matter how many times.I run upgrade the get the same "kept back" message along with this: 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
[18:44] <leftyfb> ironpillow: that is normal
[18:44] <leftyfb> ironpillow: if you want to upgrade the packages that are held back, run: sudo apt full-upgrade
[18:45] <sarnold> it's better to suggest "apt upgrade" instead, it won't uninstall packages to satisfy the dependency solver
[18:47] <ironpillow> so should I do apt upgrade or apt install. I don't want to upgrade linux-*. I want to keep those.
[18:48] <sarnold> ironpillow: apt install netplan.io then
[18:50] <coconut> sarnold, that's why apt full-upgrade is only for optional cases.
[18:52] <ironpillow> ah...i see.
[18:53] <ironpillow> so when I did apt install netplan yesterday, it broken netplan completely. All the interfaces stopped working - they were down and I had to manually up them. But they were down after reboot.
[18:53] <ironpillow> 4.15.0-45-generic #48-Ubuntu SMP Tue Jan 29 16:28:13 UTC 2019 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
[19:07] <ironpillow> looks like apt install netplan.io worked! When I did apt install netplan yesterday it broke.
[19:07] <ironpillow> thanks coconut and leftyfb!
[19:07] <ironpillow> and sarnold :)
[19:12] <sarnold>  Plan is a schedule planner based on X/Motif.
[19:12] <sarnold> ironpillow: ^^ that netplan? kinda looks like this? https://www.bitrot.de/pictures/plan-disp.jpg
[19:17] <Rob_Jones> anyone know how to prevent people trying to url inject your site?
[19:20] <ironpillow> sarnold: really?! :)
[19:20] <ironpillow> wow didn't know
[19:21] <sarnold> ironpillow: yeah :) I have to wonder if the name collision was known beforehand or not, hehe
[19:21] <EriC^^> Rob_Jones: url inject?
[19:21] <Rob_Jones> getting errors like this on my web server
[19:21] <Rob_Jones> <IP_ADDRESS> - - [25/Jun/2020:09:51:04 +0000] "GET /?a=fetch&content=<php>die(@md5(HelloThinkCMF))</php> HTTP/1.1" 200 3343 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Ge
[19:21] <Rob_Jones> log lines*
[19:23] <EriC^^> isnt php like this <?php die() ?>
[19:23] <EriC^^> seems like a rookie messing with you or something? i dunno
[19:23] <sarnold> Rob_Jones: I've heard mod_security can offer some protection against that
[19:23] <ironpillow> I hope that is fixed because it completely rendered my network useless
[19:24] <sarnold> EriC^^: usually a few hundred of things like this are stuffed in a 'scanning script' that's just run on every website on the internet
[19:24] <EriC^^> sarnold: odd, does <php> </php> even work or used to as some point?
[19:25] <sarnold> EriC^^: there's *so many* terrible websites out there, I bet it works somewhere
[19:25] <kinghat> is there a tool to make a list of installed packages, snaps, flatpaks for install later?
[19:25] <Jordan_U> Rob_Jones: In My Humble Opinion you should focus on making sure that your web services don't have bugs in validation that lead them to be vulnerable to such attacks, rather than worrying about "stopping" bots from trying various known vulnerabilities.
[19:25] <Rob_Jones> it doesnt
[19:26] <Rob_Jones> apparently its a wordpress vulnerability with earlier versions - https://topherpedersen.blog/2020/02/03/afetchcontentdiemd5hellothinkcmf/
[19:26] <sarnold> kinghat: dpkg --get-selections | dpkg --set-selections
[19:26] <sarnold> kinghat: no idea on snaps, flatpak
[19:27] <Jordan_U> Rob_Jones: Then the worst those bots are doing is cluttering your logs. You can setup fail2ban to ban based on apache logs, but don't spend more time on that than auditing your own code and making sure that you're keeping all packages (and dependencies of your web services that might not be installed via apt) up to date with security updates.
[19:27] <kinghat> sarnold: dpkg: error: operation requires read/write access to dpkg status area
[19:28] <sarnold> kinghat: the --set-selections does require root privs, you're telling it what packages you want to be installed..
[19:28] <EriC^^> Rob_Jones: ah interesting, thanks
[19:40] <milantha> I need help enabling rebuilding Mysql packages with debugging support.  Debugging is disabled by default in Ubuntu.  I know I need to pass WITH_DEBUG to cmake, according to the Mysql instructions. However, I can't find any documentation on how I would do that.  I have done the following: apt-get source, apt-get build-dep, dpkg-source .  I can also successfully build the unaltered source using: dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b .
[19:40] <dirtycajunrice> So in 5.7rc3 they fixed a mapping error for HyperX Cloud Flight S headsets https://lkml.org/lkml/2020/4/4/197. I have this kernel and although alsamixer now can load the headset, pavucontrol does not see the mic... I have run out of forum ideas does anyone know what i could try?
[19:51] <sarnold> milantha: probably start with editing the debian/rules file
[19:55] <milantha> sarnold: Thank you for the pointer.  I'll try some things there.
[19:57] <mboard> hi all, not sure if this is the right group to ask, I have a hdd that I removed from an old tower running Ubuntu 18.04.  I currently only have access to a Win tower, which I added the hdd to with a cradle, but this is not coming up as a drive
[19:57] <mboard> However if I go to disk manager I can see it, is there any way I can get access to the files?  I want to reinstall Ubuntu but I need to get some data from the hdd first
[20:05] <milantha> mboard: I have used DiskInternals Linux Reader previously.  You can't see the files because it is likely formatted to a filesystem that Windows cannot understand (ext2, ext3, ext4, etc.)
[20:07] <mboard> milantha yes seems so, I will check this app, thank you very much
[20:09] <mboard> milantha, this is perfect.  Thank you very very much.  You just saved me from a nervous breakdown lol :D
[20:09] <milantha> mboard: I've been there.  Glad it works for you.
[20:11] <mboard> milantha, I am seeing the files, do you know if it is possible to actually copy files across?  I am not able to do so even though I can see the files and folders
[20:14] <milantha> mboard: If I remember correctly, you have to mark the files, and then you "download" them to a location on your device.  You can't use typical file explorer tools to do so.
[20:14] <mboard> milantha, ah ok, no problem.  Found it.  Was just trying to drag them across.  Thank you once again :)
[21:05] <ironpillow> is there a way to boot from lvm snapshot?
[21:15] <ax562> I just want to say ubuntu 20.04 lts rocks.  IMHO most stable, less buggy release ever.  Great job!
[21:22] <BeavisOnFire> Yeah, it rules !
[21:23] <Ketzer> agreed
[21:23] <Ketzer> works flawlessly on my netbook. kudos
[21:38] <tpw_rules> is there a way to get into a snap and update a package inside it? the mesa version shipped with the cloudcompare snap doesn't work properly with my graphics card
[21:39] <mason> tpw_rules: That's the downside to snaps. They're intended to be black boxes.
[21:40] <tpw_rules> unfortunately the alternative is to compile it myself
[21:41] <tpw_rules> so is the answer "no"?
[21:41] <sarnold> hopefully they published the snapcrafy.yaml so you could amend it yourself
[21:42] <mason> tpw_rules: https://www.cloudcompare.org/release/ notes "beta" and "edge" channels. Might be worth seeing if those are new enough.
[21:42] <tpw_rules> they're all the same version. the latest release was only a few days ago so there's no new changes yet
[21:50] <oerheks> tpw_rules, contact the maintainer?
[21:50] <oerheks> Daniel Girardeau-Montaut
[21:51] <tpw_rules> this doesn't fix the problem now
[21:51] <tpw_rules> he's the cloudcompare maintainer, a separate person (whose contact information i am looking for) maintains the snap
[21:53] <oerheks> i think not? http://www.danielgm.net/cc/release/
[21:53] <tpw_rules> "Now thanks to Alberto Mardegan (and Romain Janvier), there is a "universal" snap package for Linux."
[21:53] <oerheks> that page says " Alberto Mardegan (and Romain Janvier)" maintain the snap
[21:53] <tpw_rules> yes
[21:54] <tpw_rules> that's what i said
[21:54] <oerheks> so, the developer is Daniel
[21:54] <oerheks> whatever, we cannot ediot the snap for you.
[21:54] <tpw_rules> which is why i asked if i can edit it myself
[22:43] <ForeverNoob[m]> hello, so I use (Mullvad) VPN and I just do "sudo openvpn config.conf", normally this lets me not only have the VPN endpoint IP but also sets the nameservers to that of the VPN. However... I was in a cafe once and I connected to my VPN that way, but now my nameservers were changed to something else. I also noticed that my /etc/resolv.conf looked like this: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1153910
[22:43] <ForeverNoob[m]> (notice the line which says "search thecafe")
[22:44] <ForeverNoob[m]> Mullvad support suggested that this might be systemd-resolvd working against my preferred configuration, would that be plausible?
[22:45] <ForeverNoob[m]> And if so, how would I tell systemd-resolvd to always assume the DNS servers of my VPN provider?
[22:46] <ForeverNoob[m]> Obviously this is a big issue... my DNS looked to be MITM'd and I couldn't connect to some sites over https since those servers seemed to serve me a different certificate.
[22:50] <oerheks> ForeverNoob[m], just millvad vpn, without wireguard?
[22:51] <oerheks> i would choose this tutorial https://mullvad.net/en/help/easy-wireguard-mullvad-setup-linux/
[22:51] <ForeverNoob[m]> yeah just using openvpn via tcp
[22:52] <ForeverNoob[m]> would WG work well on Ubuntu 18.04? I thought it was only integrated in kernel from 20.04
[22:52] <oerheks> integrated in kernel 5.6 indeed, but this mod is the same.
[22:52] <oerheks>  18.04 + HWE is preferrable
[22:52] <oerheks> !hwe
[22:58] <dirtycajunrice> well after a few months i was able to answer my own question: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1219914/alsamixer-usb-headphone-mic-combo-cannot-control-mic/1253852#1253852
[23:00] <dirtycajunrice> What i find odd is that the patch in 5.7rc3 does not even address the hardware id of the headset i have and yet it does fix it, which confuses me as to why they are still explicitly stating this headset and adding it to 5.8rc3
[23:00] <dirtycajunrice> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/diff/sound/usb/quirks.c?id=a4d3712b510534ef2ab5b15429aa94283c233a31
[23:01] <oerheks> hmm on my 18.04 this Bluez package is the culprit, installed the ppa and vrooommmm
[23:23] <skyliner_369> tfw you finally realize why Blender can't see your GPU as a CUDA GPU... ((The toolkit got dropped when upgrading from 18 to 20))
[23:33] <jayjo> What's the best way to replace the GnuPG on my Ubuntu installation with the current master branch? Because it's added to the Ubuntu installation, is there a specific way to remove that package before building? I have 2.2.12 but I would like 2.2.18
[23:36] <hggdh> jayjo: probably by grabbing the source and building it locally & installing at /usr/local/. It may, or may not, work. You will have to read the docs
[23:41] <oerheks> 2.2.20 https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/groovy/+source/gnupg2
[23:41] <jayjo> hggdh: do I need to first remove the preinstalled version?
[23:42] <oerheks> 2.2.19 focal LTS https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/focal/+source/gnupg2
[23:45] <jayjo> gnupg2 is already the newest version (2.2.12-1ubuntu3)
[23:46] <sarnold> jayjo: do-release-upgrade ? eoan support ends in a month anyway
[23:49] <jayjo> ok, good point
[23:52] <databoose> anyone know what to do when ubuntu doesn't detect your soundcard?
[23:52] <databoose> tried reinstalling asla/pulseaudio and deleting the config files, nothing
[23:53] <databoose> and confirmed the hardware is working fine with a usb bootable
[23:53] <databoose> all that pops up  is "dummy output"
[23:58] <bparker> databoose: you might get better help if you could prove your system does not detect a soundcard.
[23:58] <bparker> I'm gonna guess that's not even the case and the issue is something else.
[23:58] <bparker> (beware of the XY problem)
[23:59] <databoose> well there's nothing in the hardwaretab of the sound preferences gui
[23:59] <databoose> and when i try sudo alsa force-reload it responds with the following:
[23:59] <databoose> Unloading ALSA sound driver modules: (none loaded). Loading ALSA sound driver modules: (none to reload).


[05:53] <floown> Hello
[05:53] <floown> How to restart Zsh, please?
[06:05] <hateball> ... restart? Log out of your shell and back in?
[06:12] <lordievader> Good morning
[07:41] <gt8ost4l> does anyone know how to show duration (length) of media files in a column or preview widget ?
[08:32] <zztopless> hey k people... having an annoying issue where app windows will start to drop under the main taskbar (panel).  I find the only thing that resolves it using my, normally reserved for more serious issues, 'killall plasmashell' kstart plasmashell'
[08:33] <zztopless> Anyone have any less 'hit it down with a hammer' ideas as stop it from happening?
[08:56] <zztopless> Does anyone know a way to completely disable Baloo in 18.04, but stil have dolphin search work as it did pre kde5?  I would like to stop having to switch between Dolphin4 and 5 for the one or two things one does that the other doesn't
[11:48] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
[14:29] <HiPhish> Hello everyone, I hope this is the right place for my question. I am running Kubuntu 18.04
[14:30] <HiPhish> When I want to play MIDI sound and normal sound at the same time only one of the two work.
[14:30] <HiPhish> It's like MIDI wants full control over the sound card, it does not even shop among the "Applications" in the Audio Volume widget
[14:31] <hateball> HiPhish: what application are you using to play?
[14:31] <HiPhish> I know that Timidity is handling coversion of MIDI to sound signals, but I haven't changed any configurations from the default.
[14:32] <HiPhish> hateball: aplaymidi for testing. My real use-case is that I want to play the new System Shock source port in Wine.
[14:32] <hateball> HiPhish: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/timidity/+bug/210472
[14:32] <HiPhish> When I play System Shock I can only hear the music, but no sound effects. I thought initially that it's a Wine issue, but as I said, aplaymidi displays the same behaviour.
[14:33] <hateball> HiPhish: why would you need timidity for a wine port? weird
[14:34] <HiPhish> hateball: I don't know much about MIDI or Linux sound. All I know is that MIDI is not an actual audio file, but instructions for "instruments".
[14:34] <hateball> yea
[14:34] <HiPhish> These instructions can be played back by a synthesizer, or a program that turns them into sound for a sound card.
[14:35] <hateball> seems weird the new version would use midi and not something like mp3 or vorbis is all
[14:35] <hateball> HiPhish: also, have you tried it through Proton in Steam?
[14:35] <HiPhish> And from what I understand, Timidity fulfills the latter role.
[14:35] <hateball> rather than wine+win-steam
[14:35] <HiPhish> I don't have Steam, I use the GOG version.
[14:35] <hateball> ah
[14:38] <HiPhish> If I manually start a Timidity process with `timidity -iA -B2,8 -Os &` and instruct aplaymidi to play on that one's port, then I can get both MIDI and normal audio to play.
[14:39] <HiPhish> https://askubuntu.com/a/823101
[14:39] <HiPhish> This is why I believe that the problem is in the way Timidity is set up.
[15:38] <Mylon> Why does the touchpad utility not allow me to change tap actions?
[15:39] <Mylon> There's a drop down for two-finger tap, but it's greyed out?
[15:47] <Mylon> Alright, I'm back.  Did I miss a reply?
[15:49] <Mylon> Hmm, can't use Discover to install something.  Can't obtain lock?
[15:51] <BluesKaj> maybe unattended upgrades running in the background, that will tie up your package manager
[15:52] <BluesKaj> it normally runs right after login
[16:03] <HiPhish> Mylon: I had a similar problem a few days ago. Discover displayed to me a command to type into the terminal which fixed it.
[16:05] <HiPhish> IIRC it showed as a sort of bezel for a short time, so it's easy to miss if you aren't paying attention. Try terminating Discover and then running update again, maybe it will show up.
[16:09] <daum> any ideas why groups MY_USER shows a number of groups, but just typing "groups" as my user only brings back the primary group of my user.  I've rebooted, and still the same.  If I sudo into my own user it properly shows the groups
[16:34] <daum> seems like this person had a similar issue: https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/91jc80/help_when_opening_konsole_my_user_will_not_have/
[17:02] <ylel9> ##shqip
[17:10] <Mylon> How do I change two-finger tap behavior on the touchpad?  In the touchpad gui, tap behaviors are grayed out.
[18:35] <7GHAAKTUO> Hello, I just installed kubuntu 18.04 (came from mint 18) and for some reason, CTRL-INS in konsole is not working.. Since I continually use this, this is very anoying and I have no idea what other key it would be.. Where can I fix this issue, and have CTRL-INS copy to clipboard again?
[18:35] <phoenixz> Hello, I just installed kubuntu 18.04 (came from mint 18) and for some reason, CTRL-INS in konsole is not working.. Since I continually use this, this is very anoying and I have no idea what other key it would be.. Where can I fix this issue, and have CTRL-INS copy to clipboard again?
[18:35] <phoenixz> (sorry, quassel had me as... some weird username)
[18:38] <IrcsomeBot1> <Phil Linux> Will the Ryzen 7 2700X work out of the box with an up to date Kubuntu 18.04?
[18:43] <moffa> phoenixz: Under Profile > Edit Profile > Keyboard > Edit and you can customize your key commands
[18:55] <phoenixz> moffa: yeah, I've been looking at that, but that appears to send special shell codes to the terminal, I dont see anything about copy/paste there
[22:32] <Mylon> I'm trying to install bluetooth drivers following this guide ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/bluetooth/+bug/1189721/comments/286 ) and it gives me this error: cc1: error: code model kernel does not support PIC mod
[22:33] <Mylon> After installing make, gcc, and libelf-dev... Still won't compile.
[22:35] <Mylon> Is there a way to get my bluetooth working?  The error message suggests I have the wrong kernel, which sounds weird.


[00:05] <ChaoticanarchyX> hi all
[00:05] <ChaoticanarchyX> can anyone help me out with installing something?
[00:09] <xnox> !ask
[00:09] <ubot2> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) See also !patience
[00:10] <xnox> ChaoticanarchyX: plus this channel is in particular about installers used to install ubuntu on to target machine. There are more general support channels: #ubuntu and askubuntu.com
[11:49] <jbicha> for the Ubuntu GNOME Remix, we're including GNOME Shell *and* GNOME Classic for now using GDM
[11:49] <jbicha> if you log out of the live session (running GNOME Shell), the ubuntu user doesn't show up on the log in screen since it's uid is 999 which is less than 1000
[11:49] <cjwatson> Yep
[11:50] <cjwatson> That's necessary to avoid confusing the installer
[11:50] <jbicha> any way to fix this?
[11:50] <cjwatson> Make an exception for it in GDM
[11:50] <jbicha> there was a suggestion to add a "Try GNOME Classic" button to the ubiquity launch screen
[11:51] <cjwatson> I'd rather not have more desktop-specific paths in ubiquity than we have to
[11:52] <jbicha> it looked like gdm was just using /etc/login.defs to know what users to show on the login screen
[11:52] <cjwatson> We could tweak that in casper I suppose
[11:52] <jbicha> just for gdm then?
[11:53] <cjwatson> sed -i '/^[UG]ID_MIN/s/\<1000$/ 999/' /etc/login.defs
[11:53] <cjwatson> in casper
[11:53] <cjwatson> would that do the job?
[11:54] <cjwatson> That wouldn't propagate to the installed system (which is good)
[11:54] <jbicha> darkxst said that he tested doing that and it worked; I haven't tried it yet
[12:02] <darkxst> yes I tested that and its works
[12:02] <cjwatson> OK, so feel free to change casper for that
[12:03] <cjwatson> scripts/casper-bottom/25adduser I guess
[12:05] <darkxst> so there won't be any side effects if we patch login.defs with casper?
[12:05] <cjwatson> Hard to guarantee, but I believe that change should be safe
[12:06] <cjwatson> Not entirely sure it's beta-2-suitable
[12:11] <CIA-5> ubiquity: xnox * r5684 trunk/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py):
[12:11] <CIA-5> ubiquity: Do not offer to remove partitions nor create partition table on the
[12:11] <CIA-5> ubiquity: loop mounted devices. (LP: #1055640)
[12:13] <jbicha> darkxst: we don't need this feature for beta 2, right?
[12:15] <darkxst> no, after beta 2 would be fine
[13:08] <CIA-5> ubiquity: xnox * r5685 trunk/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py):
[13:08] <CIA-5> ubiquity: Skip locked partitions when rebuilding cache, in a similar way as
[13:08] <CIA-5> ubiquity: skipping free disk space, by sniffing locked file in the partman
[13:08] <CIA-5> ubiquity: device tree. (LP: #1055819)
[13:09] <xnox> cjwatson: ^^^ I have hooked into tidy_update_partitions in the same way as free space is skipped, this correctly avoids the locked error.
[13:10] <xnox> There are still additional files that we can sniff & add to the partition_cache and display in the table. E.g. type=crypto & "used as  physical volume for encrypted volume /dev/mapper/vda1_crypt"
[13:33] <cjwatson> xnox: looks good; maybe clear the cached locked flag in the else path to be on the safe side
[13:34] <xnox> ok.
[13:56] <CIA-5> ubiquity: xnox * r5686 trunk/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py): Just in case, remove locked flag if not locked.
[14:27] <CIA-5> ubiquity: xnox * r5687 trunk/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py):
[14:27] <CIA-5> ubiquity: Hide mount combo, instead of making it insensitive to reduce clutter
[14:27] <CIA-5> ubiquity: in the add/edit partition dialog. (LP: #1055815)
[15:04] <CIA-5> ubiquity: xnox * r5688 trunk/ (d-i/manifest debian/changelog):
[15:04] <CIA-5> ubiquity: Automatic update of included source packages: flash-kernel
[15:04] <CIA-5> ubiquity: 3.0~rc.4ubuntu25, grub-installer 1.78ubuntu3.
[15:16] <CIA-5> ubiquity: xnox * r5689 trunk/ubiquity/plugins/ubi-partman.py: pep8 whitespace changes
[15:39] <CIA-5> ubiquity: xnox * r5690 trunk/debian/changelog: releasing version 2.12.4