[07:21] <vazqmich> is this a place where i can get help on my ubuntu troubles?
[16:13]  * JackyAlcine will be right back.
[16:58] <AJenbo> Hey TLE
[16:58] <TLE> Hey
[17:00] <dpm> hey hey, hello everyone!
[17:00] <MeanEYE> ello there
[17:01] <dpm> let's wait for a couple of minutes for people to come in and then let's start rolling
[17:01] <AJenbo> Hello dpm
[17:01] <dpm> hey AJenbo, how's it going?
[17:01] <dpm> hey TLE :)
[17:01] <TLE> Hallo
[17:01] <dpm> hi MeanEYE
[17:01] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
[17:04] <dpm> right, it seems that the session is moderated, so while we are sorting this out, feel free to chat on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[17:04] <dpm> ok, let's get started!
[17:05] <dpm> so, good morning/afternoon/evening everyone!
[17:06] <dpm> today we're going to talk about running a translations jam during the Ubuntu Global Jam event
[17:07] <dpm> the aim is for it to be useful for both new and experienced translation teams
[17:07] <dpm> so it'd be cool if you could share your experiences on running jams too
[17:08] <dpm> as I say, in the meantime we can talk on #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and I can forward the conversation in the main channel
[17:08] <dpm> First of all, are there any translations people around?
[17:09] <dpm> Anyone who's run a translations jam before?
[17:10] <dpm> so we've got AJenbo from the Ubuntu Danish translation team
[17:11] <dpm> and TLE also from the Danish team
[17:11] <dpm> who've run a few small events
[17:11] <dpm> ok, let's start with the dates
[17:12] <dpm> You've probably heard that we are running the Ubuntu Global Jam (UGJ) very soon :)
[17:12] <dpm> * WHAT: Ubuntu Global Jam
[17:13] <dpm> * WHEN: weekend of the 1st-3rd Apr
[17:13] <dpm> * WHERE: all over the world!
[17:13] <dpm> You'll find all the info you need (and more!) on:
[17:13] <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
[17:13] <dpm> There you'll find links for every type of jam we are proposing (translations, packaging, documentation, upgrade, testing, etc.)
[17:14] <dpm> Remember that the idea is not that each LoCo runs all types of jams.
[17:14] <dpm> The idea is that there are several options each team can consider, and then decide the type or types of jams that you'd like to run when you are getting together
[17:15] <dpm> and of course, the other main idea is that you get to see your Ubuntu friends once more and have some fun :-)
[17:15] <dpm> In the case of translations jams, you'll also find more info here:
[17:16] <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Translations
[17:16] <dpm> The important thing here is also to add your details on the UGJ event on the LoCo Directory here:
[17:16] <dpm> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/567/detail/
[17:17] <dpm> it's very encouraging for all teams to see that they are participating in a truly global event
[17:17] <dpm> improving Ubuntu and having a good time
[17:18] <dpm> we've got 35 registered events all over the world already, which is quite impressive
[17:18] <dpm> Also importantly, registering your event on the LoCo directory will give visibility to your team and more people might be interested in coming along to the local events.
[17:19] <dpm> ok, so before we get into the details, any questions so far about what the global jam or anything related?
 dpm: Is there a way to make those events a bit more easy to find. I know a lot of people who use Ubuntu but have no clue UGJ or UDS exist. Some advertisement would be nice or perhaps advertising closest events based on geo-ip data to the user who visits Ubuntu.com
[17:21] <dpm> we do advertise those events on the Ubuntu Planet, on http://loco.ubuntu.com/ and all the usual Ubuntu channels, and we rely on the community to spread the word as much as possible
[17:23] <dpm> geo ip seems like a good idea, so my suggestion would be that if you've got a clear idea on a specification or on an implementation for ubuntu.com
[17:23] <dpm> you'd file a bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/
[17:23] <dpm> which will get to the attention of the website developers and you'll be able to contribute too
[17:24] <dpm> Translations jams allow you making your favourite OS accessible for thousands of people in your language
[17:25] <dpm> I always have to think that when I'm doing translations
[17:25] <dpm> for some people it even means it's the only OS available in their language
[17:27] <dpm> ok, it seems we've sorted out the moderation on the channel
[17:27] <dpm> so feel free to comment on the main channel if you want from now on
[17:27] <dpm> Anyway, for those new to translations:
[17:27] <dpm> Translations in Ubuntu are done by the awesome people in Ubuntu Translation teams, which you can see here:
[17:28] <dpm> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
[17:28] <dpm> They are the ones responsible for submitting and reviewing translations in each language
[17:29] <dpm> But do not worry: everyone can submit translation suggestions without having to be in one of the translation teams, so that you can contribute easily since day 1. The members of the translation team will act as reviewers to see that your suggestion is ok, doesn't contain any typos, etc.
[17:29] <dpm> So it's important to get in touch with them once you've done a bunch of suggestions, so that they are aware of them, and they can give you some feedback.
[17:29] <dpm> This feedback will greatly help you on your way to becoming an Ubuntu translator, if you are not one already :)
[17:30] <dpm> Before or after the Jam is a good time to get involved in those teams, and perhaps apply to join them.
[17:30] <dpm> It is always a good thing to make sure there is at least a member of the Launchpad translation team at the Jam, be it physically or remotely, so that he or she can accept translation suggestions on the spot, or provide some feedback on improvement.
[17:31] <dpm> The other useful thing in translation jams is to set goals:
[17:32] <dpm> For example, before the jam you could decide you want:
[17:32] <dpm> * To have ubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs fully translated after the jam
[17:32] <dpm> * To have the Ubuntu Slideshow in the installer fully translated after the jam
[17:32] <dpm> * To have all the applications in the first page of http://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu translated
[17:32] <dpm> * To translate the package descriptions of the Featured category in Software Center
[17:33] <dpm> * etc.
[17:33] <dpm> Basically, it's up to you and your team which goals you want to set
[17:34] <dpm> Remember to widely announce your jam in your region or local area
[17:34] <AJenbo_> In the danish team we hacked ul10n-stats to produce a list of what packages needs to be translated for get to 100% translated UI
[17:35] <dpm> AJenbo_, that's really cool, let's talk about this in a while, I've been hacking on ul10n-stats recently with the same purpose :)
[17:36] <dpm> have a look at the latest revisions from trunk, I think you'll like it :)
[17:36] <dpm> AJenbo_, anyway, you were telling me the Danish team was thinking of ways of better promoting events, could you share it with the rest of the audience?
[17:37] <AJenbo_> We are going to run an ad campain og google using some of the free cupons they keep sending us.
[17:38] <AJenbo_> We adwords you have the ability to specefy a region so you can make the ad specific to the local event
[17:38] <AJenbo_> s/We/With
[17:38] <dpm> wow, so you've been thinking about using it for promoting Ubuntu events?
[17:39] <AJenbo_> yes
[17:39] <dpm> cool :)
[17:39] <dpm> so here's a great suggestion for other teams ^^
[17:40] <dpm> ok, so going back to doing translations,
[17:40] <dpm> during the jam
[17:40] <dpm> you should definitely check out Nightmonkey if you are setting a goal for translations of package descriptions.
[17:40] <dpm> I talked about it a while ago: http://davidplanella.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/translating-software-descriptions-with-nightmonkey/
[17:41] <dpm> During the jam you can use several tools to coordinate the goals I was talking about earlier, assign translations, keep track on who's translating and reviewing what, etc
[17:42] <dpm> Gobby (apt://gobby) and the Ubuntu wiki will come to your rescue
[17:42] <dpm> you can, for example, prepare these goals in the wiki before the jam
[17:42] <dpm> and then use gobby for real-time communication. This can be useful in either case: if you are running a jam somewhere where you are physically together, or remotely
[17:43] <dpm> since that's another possibility
[17:43] <dpm> we encourage running jams as a physical meeting
[17:43] <dpm> but that's not always possible
[17:43] <dpm> especially for LoCos that encompass really distant areas
[17:44] <dpm> in that case, running an IRC jam can also be fun
[17:44] <dpm> One important note on the goals, though:
[17:44] <dpm> It's fantastic to achieve them, but sometimes in jams you get a lot of new people coming along, and you spend quite a lot of time telling them about Ubuntu, about how the translations process goes, etc.
[17:46] <dpm> So you just have to remember that this training part is also very important. It is very rewarding to get new contributors to your translation team and help better localizing Ubuntu in your language
[17:46] <dpm> And it is fun as well ;)
[17:46] <dpm> Regarding new contributors,
[17:46] <dpm> another tip is to prepare some short presentation on how the translation process works, so that you don't have to explain it every time all over again
[17:47] <dpm> You can run the presentation at the beginning of the jam or put it somewhere and point people to it when they've got questions
[17:47] <dpm> As you'll see that people come at any time during the day
[17:47] <dpm> (don't expect everyone to come by first thing in the morning ;)
[17:47] <dpm> And might not have seen your presentation if you are running it e.g. in the morning
[17:48] <dpm> Another thing you can do during translation Jams is to get together to prepare translation guidelines for your team
[17:48] <dpm> As you all or part of the team will be together in one place, it is a great opportunity to put the guidelines in writing
[17:48] <dpm> and make the translation process a lot easier
[17:48] <dpm> You'll find more info on translation guidelines on:
[17:48] <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/TranslationGuidelines
[17:49] <dpm> And again, remember you'll find more info on how to run translations and other types of jams on:
[17:49] <dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Translations
[17:50] <dpm> Anyway, I think that's mostly what I wanted to cover for today
[17:50] <dpm> Does anyone have any questions?
[17:50] <dpm> Or would like to share past experiences with jams?
[17:51] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[17:53] <dpm> in any case you'll find that and more info on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
[17:53] <AJenbo_> When new people come and try to translate it might be a good idea to have them on a relaxed rule set but with guidence so that they have an easy transition to becomming part of the translation team
[17:54] <dpm> AJenbo_, yeah, definitely, take it easy with beginners, and let them feel welcome!
[17:54] <AJenbo_> They might not be ready to commit there privat email to a busy mail list either.
[17:56] <dpm> yeah, that's also a good point too, and that's also why a meeting in person, getting to know people from the mailing list can be really useful and less scary to newcomers
[17:56] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[17:56] <MeanEYE> Is there a simple tutorial for people new to whole translation deal? If not that might be a good idea. Most of us are not familiar with applications and rules when it comes to translation.
[17:57] <dpm> MeanEYE, definitely. We've got https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/QuickStartGuide, which is always a good resource to point new translations contributors to
[17:58] <dpm> and local teams have got their own resources and guides too
[17:59] <dpm> ok, so I think that was all for me today. All I need to say is thanks a lot for your participation and see you at the Global Jam!
[17:59] <MeanEYE> Thanks.
[17:59] <dpm> I'll now leave you in the able hands of the man with the unpronounceable nickname "The do's and dont's of bug triaging", with hggdh.
[18:00] <nigelb> heh
[18:00] <dpm> see you all!
[18:00] <hggdh> heh
[18:00] <MeanEYE> Cheers!
[18:00] <hggdh> Hello. My name is Carlos de-Avillez. I am one of the administrators for the BugSquad and BugControl teams on Ubuntu. I have been around bugs for pretty much all my professional life -- causing them, or finding them, or fixing them (or all three in sequence ;-).
[18:00] <hggdh> I started with Ubuntu in 2006, when I was trying to (yet again) find a Linux distribution that I felt more confortable with, and that did not need me to spend a lot of time tweaking the kernel, etc. And guess what... Ubuntu won! :-). I then joined the community, and started being active beginning of 2007.
[18:01] <hggdh> Now, as usual, questions should be asked on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel. If you want to ask a question, write it there, and precede it with 'QUESTION:'. For example:
[18:01] <hggdh> QUESTION: What does 'hggdh' mean?
[18:01] <hggdh> heh
[18:01] <hggdh> Let's get into the class now.
[18:01] <nigelb> Something in Hebrew I think ;)
[18:01] <hggdh> indeed
[18:01] <hggdh> First, who we are (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
[18:01] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
[18:02] <hggdh> The BugSquad is the team responsible for *triaging* bugs opened against Ubuntu and its packages. The term 'triage' is pretty much taken from medicine --  determining the priority of treatments based on the severity of a condition  (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage).
[18:02] <hggdh> Different from medical triage, though, we do not expect human death as a consequence of delayed treatment.
[18:02] <hggdh> which is, BTW, good!
[18:03] <hggdh> But we still need to triage: there are many more bugs than triagers; we have to be able to prioritise the bugs; we _should_ be able to address _all_ bugs eventually.
[18:03] <hggdh> For us, then, triage is the process of analysing a bug, collecting enough data to completely describe it, and marking the bug 'Triaged', and give it an importance.
[18:04] <hggdh> Triage ends there -- it is not our responsibility to *solve* the bug: once the issue is identified, and all necessary and sufficient documentation has been added to the bug, triaging *ENDS*, and the bug goes on to a developer/maintainer to be worked on.
[18:04] <hggdh> Again: triaging *ends* when a bug status is set to Triaged (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status).
[18:04] <hggdh> This does not mean we do not solve bugs ourselves. Most of us wear a lot of hats, on (possibly) more than one project. But _triaging_ ends when the bug is set to Triaged.
[18:05] <hggdh> It is no longer a BugSquad interest.
[18:05] <hggdh> Now, another important point is being able to differentiate between bugs (errors in a programme/package) and support issues (how to use a programme/package, how to set up something). We only deal with *bugs*.
[18:06] <hggdh> Support requests should be redirected to one of the appropriate fora: http://askubuntu.com/, https://answers.launchpad.net/, http://ubuntuforums.org/, an appropriate IRC channel, etc.
[18:06] <hggdh> With that in mind...
[18:07] <hggdh> DO: follow the advices and recommendations from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/KnowledgeBase: they can be used not only for finding more about your own issues, but *ALSO* for triaging somebody else's bugs.
[18:08] <hggdh> if you do not agree with something there, please bring it up on #ubuntu-bugs, or the bugSquad mailing list. We will be happy to correct any issue (er, actually, we will probably tell you we agree, and ask *you* to update it)
[18:08] <hggdh> DO: read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/KnowledgeBase. Really. No kidding.
[18:09] <hggdh> DO: read the Code of Conduct (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct).  A nice exposition of the CoC is also at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductGuidelines.
[18:09] <hggdh> (if you wish to be a member of the BugSquad (and, eventually, of Bug Control), we require that you sign it.)
[18:10] <hggdh> This -- the CoC -- is perhaps the major difference between Ubuntu and other projects: we try very hard to live by it. *NOT* signing it does not free one from been required to be civil. So...
[18:10] <hggdh> DO: be nice. Say 'please', and 'thank you'. It does help, a lot. Follow the Golden Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule), *always*.
[18:11] <hggdh> DO: keep in mind that English is the official language on https://bugs.launchpad.net, but _many_ UBuntu bug reporters are *not* native speakers of English. This means that many times we will get bugs that are badly written in English (or not in English at all).
[18:12] <hggdh> or, a few times, in something that sort of seems like English, but certainly it is just a passing resemblance...
[18:12] <hggdh> so:
[18:12] <hggdh> DO: Try to understand. Ask for someone else to translate it if you do not speak (er, read) the language (hint: the #ubuntu-translators and #ubuntu-bug channels will probably have someone able to translate). Be nice -- always. "I cannot understand you" is, most of the times, *not* nice ;-)
[18:13] <hggdh> DO: ask for help on how to deal with a bug if you are unsure. Nobody knows it all, and we all started ignorant on bug triaging (and, pretty much, on everything else ;-). We have a mailing list (Ubuntu-bugsquad@lists.ubuntu.com), and we are always at the #ubuntu-bugs channel on freenode.
[18:14] <hggdh> We will be more than happy to help out on procedures and requirements.
[18:14] <hggdh> Please note that we do not _triage_ bugs on #ubuntu-bugs, or the ML -- we will answer and help on procedures and requirements. We will, though, point out deficiencies and missing data, and suggest actions.
[18:16] <hggdh> DO: _understand_ the problem. A lot of times we see a bug where a _consequence_ is described, but not the _cause_. The triager should do her/his best to understand which is which, and act accordingly. This may mean changing the bug's package, or rewriting the description, etc.
[18:17] <hggdh> The point here is: if we do not understand what is the problem, then how can we correct it?
[18:17] <hggdh> There are many ways to do that (er, _understand_, not solve); most will require learning ;-)
[18:18] <hggdh> yeah, study. More.
[18:19] <hggdh> But look at it in a different way: I am only good on what I do because I *keep* on learning.
[18:20] <hggdh> most processes & procedures for understanding a problem also have never been really ported/adapted to computing (differential diagnosis -- medicine --, fault trees -- nuclear reactors, rockets --, etc). So... right now, the best way is to learn more. To keep on learning. With time you will be able to _intuitively_ see a consequence.
[18:21] <hggdh> (I would personally love to see differential diagnosis ported to computing, I think there is really something there)
[18:21] <ClassBot> jsjgruber asked: So should bug reports reflect symptoms or causes?
[18:22] <hggdh> jsjgruber: bug reports should have both, as much as possible: you see a bug due to a consequence (incorrect output, unexpected termination, etc)
[18:23] <hggdh> but we should try to discern between cause and consequence (so an ideal bug report will have both: "given that input, this error happens")
[18:23] <hggdh> a bug report with only consequence is not (yet) fixable -- we will still have to find out *what* *causes* the issue
[18:24] <hggdh> Also, it is important to keep in mind that *correlation is not causation* (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation).
[18:25] <hggdh> not necessarily what seems to be connected is indeed connected
[18:25] <hggdh> (I think this was once called the first law of correct startistic)
[18:25] <hggdh> statistics
[18:25] <hggdh> DO: Try to ask and find answers for some questions: WHAT did happen? WHY did it happen? WHICH COMPONENTS are involved? HOW did it happen? HOW can it be REPEATED? What has CHANGED (if it worked before)?
[18:25] <ClassBot> mdevenish asked: Do you need to be assigned a mentor to join the bug squad?
[18:26] <hggdh> mdevenish: no, not at all.
[18:26] <hggdh> mdevenish: we do strongly suggest that you frequent #ubuntu-bugs
[18:27] <hggdh> most of the questions asked to mentors are routinely answered there
[18:27] <hggdh> DO: add a comment on every action you take on the bug (changing status, importance, package, etc). Although for you it may be crystal-clear the reasons for taking an action, this may not be true for others (in fact, a lot of times it is not clear, at all...).
[18:28] <hggdh> the above is much more important than it seems: we, working on a bug, know exactly *why* we took an action
[18:28] <ClassBot> jsjgruber asked: If two different symptoms have the same cause should one be marked as a duplicate of the other?
[18:28] <hggdh> but... usually, nobody else knows why...
[18:29] <hggdh> jsjgruber: hum. Careful there -- but yes, one single cause may produce different symptoms
[18:30] <hggdh> so we should go to what I stated above on understanding what happened
[18:30] <hggdh> DO NOT: add comments like "me too", "I also have it", "also a problem here", etc. These comments just pollute the bug, making it more difficult to find out what happened, where we are, and what is the next step.
[18:31] <hggdh> (I hate to page thru a 200-comment bug, trying to find out something that really helps the work on the bug)
[18:32] <hggdh> instead, mark it as "also affects me". Much cleaner.
[18:32] <hggdh> (and subscribe to it, if you wish to know when the issue is resolved)
[18:32] <hggdh> DO: if you are starting on triage, browse the open bugs (there are about 80,000 of them) and look for one you feel _confortable_ with (or less unconfortable ;-). Ideally, you should be able to reproduce it. It does help if you start with bugs on packages you yourself use.
[18:32] <hggdh> I will repeat the last sentence in a slightly different way:
[18:33] <hggdh> DO NOT work on bugs involving packages YOU do not use/undertand.
[18:34] <ClassBot> chadadavis asked: There needs to be some kind of 'me too' (just one) to mark the bug as confirmed, no?
[18:34] <hggdh> If you do not know how to use a package, how will you be able to say this is, or is not, a bug?
[18:35] <hggdh> chadadavis: yes. If you can confirm the issue of an existing bug, you can mark it Confirmed. But... in this case I would like a bit more than a "mee too", I would like to to know HOW it was reproduced, WHAT VERSIONS, and WHAT HAPPENED
[18:36] <hggdh> in other words: changing a bug status should *ALWAYS* be done together with an explanation of the reasoning
[18:36] <hggdh> And do get on to #ubuntu-bugs, and ask for help there when in doubt. We do not bite... really ;-)
[18:36] <hggdh> Oh, since we are here:
[18:36] <hggdh> DO NOT: change a Triaged bug to New/Incomplete/Confirmed -- a triaged bug is OUT OF SCOPE for triaging. It is not our problem anymore (while wearing the triager's hat).
[18:37] <hggdh> as a developer/maintainer, I *can* move a bug from Triaged to New/Incomplete/Confirmed -- or even close it INVALID/WONTFIX, etc
[18:37] <hggdh> but, as a triager, IT IS OUT OF SCOPE
[18:38] <hggdh> DO NOT: assign yourself (or any other person) to a bug. Bug assignment is a clear, official, signal that "the assignee is actively working on resolving this issue". Nobody else -- including the developers/maintainers -- will touch this bug anymore. Instead...
[18:38] <hggdh> DO: so... if you are triaging, and have asked a question/requested action from the OP (Original Poster), *subscribe* to the bug. Nothing is worse than a fire-and-forget action.
[18:39] <hggdh> DO NOT: confirm your own bugs. *EVER*. The fact that you see/experience a bug does not necessarily _make_ it a real bug. It may be something on your setup...
[18:39] <hggdh> DO: follow suggested actions. For some packages we have more detailed 'howtos'. These are described under the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures page. It is always a good idea to check them (and update/correct as needed).
[18:40] <hggdh> these suggested actions are the result of years of painful learning. Most of the time they ARE correct (but, perhaps, dated?)
[18:41] <hggdh> Now, a lot of the packages we offer on Ubuntu come from different projects -- Debian, Gnome, GNU, etc. We call these projects -- where real development usually takes place -- "upstream". By the same reasoning, we say we are "downstream" from them.
[18:41] <hggdh> (it also happens that Ubuntu is 'upstream' in some packages)
[18:41] <hggdh> The ideal scenario is we have our packages identical to what upstream provide, no local patchs (except, probably, for packaging details).
[18:42] <hggdh> Having local changes increases the delta (the difference between what we provide and what upstream provides), and makes updates/upgrades more costly. So our patches, ideally, should be provided to the upstream project, and discussed there (and hopefully accepted).
[18:43] <hggdh> Bugs affecting upstream projects have to be communicated upstream. This usually means doing a similar triage as we do here for a specific upstream (looking for an identical bug on the upstream project, and opening one if none is found). So.
[18:43] <hggdh> DO: Look upstream, and open a new bug if needed; then *link* this upstream bug to ours (and ours to theirs).
[18:43] <hggdh> BUT...
[18:44] <hggdh> Many upstreams have different rules on how to open/work with/close a bug. Ergo,
[18:44] <hggdh> DO: follow upstream's processes when working upstream (in an old saying, "when you enter a city, abide by its laws and customs").
[18:44] <hggdh> Finally... (and this is not a DO/DO NOT):
[18:45] <hggdh> Thank you. I am glad you were here, and I hope you help us out. And we are always (er, at least there is always someone logged it, we also have a life) available to help and discuss triaging work.
[18:45] <hggdh> uff. my fingers hurt ;-)
[18:45] <hggdh> questions, folks?
[18:46] <hggdh> then closing remarks:
[18:47] <hggdh> pretty much all of us on triage work started as volunteers; most of us are still volunteers: we *like* Ubuntu
[18:47] <hggdh> I personally like the CoC, I think this is perhaps the most remarkable thing on the Ubuntu project
[18:48] <hggdh> and this is it. Thank you
[18:48] <nigelb> Thank you hggdh
[18:49] <hggdh> my pleasure, Nigel
[18:50] <nigelb> Alright, next up is YoBoY from the French loco, we have 10 mins to go and we
[18:50] <nigelb> and we'll wait
[18:51] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[18:56] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[19:01] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
[19:02] <YoBoY> Hi, I'm YoBoY, one of the actual French loco Team contact, and one of the administrators of the french documentation. I'm also planning the next global jam in Paris
[19:03] <YoBoY> I'm here to explain how we make our global jam event rocks.
[19:03] <YoBoY> Our last Jam in Paris, we had more than 50 people who come to learn how to contribute. We made workshops to learn how to test, report bugs, triage bugs and write documentation.
[19:04] <YoBoY> In Paris, we have lot of users who want to help, but they don't know how to and where to start.
[19:04] <YoBoY> Most of them don't have programing skills.
[19:05] <YoBoY> Our Jams are more learning sessions.
[19:05] <YoBoY> We try to give everyone the basis to start contributing on their own, and find what they can do to the Ubuntu project.
[19:05] <YoBoY> Let me explain how we proceed to make a Jam.
[19:06] <YoBoY> I - find a good venue.
[19:06] <YoBoY> we need lot of space, with network
[19:07] <YoBoY> It's not easy to have that type of venue in Paris on the week end, and we need to make the reservation more than one month before the event
[19:08] <YoBoY> II - find people who can help make the workshops.
[19:08] <YoBoY> We try to cover lot of aspects of contribution.
[19:09] <YoBoY> To do that, we need members knowing how things works, how to use Launchpad, report bugs, translate, etc...
[19:09] <YoBoY> If you can do it alone, it's fine.
[19:09] <YoBoY> But if you plan to do more than one workshop, you need help.
[19:10] <YoBoY> To find this rare persons, start asking on classic channels (IRC, forum, mailing lists).
[19:11] <YoBoY> Don't be afraid to ask everywhere, not only on your local channels. Some Ubuntu members are not always registered on the loco teams, but they can help if you ask them.
[19:13] <YoBoY> This first two points are the most difficult for us because we always have lot of people who came to our events
[19:14] <YoBoY> to help around 50 people we need at least 10 members who can help using Launchpad and the other tools
 how about people leaving other nation ? if they like you to help in it
[19:16] <YoBoY> I'm not sure to understand the question :)
[19:17] <YoBoY> Everyone is welcome to join, to help or to participate
[19:18] <YoBoY> The French Team is already composed by lot of people all around the world. we always promote also events in other part of the world if we can.
[19:18] <ClassBot> Vanillalite asked: Did you guys have prefunding to get started or was getting money to say rent the meeting site part of the process?
[19:19] <YoBoY> no money, everything is free
[19:22] <YoBoY> We think here the knowledge should stay free. A part of our visitors are students, asking them to pay something is not good.
 if someone wants to come to France to your Jam, many countries don't have have local Jams, could your LoCo help with accomodation and similar things ?
[19:24] <YoBoY> Yes, we always try to accomodate people who want to come to help. We already are doing this for our Ubuntu Party (100 benevolents coming from everywhere in France and from outside France ;) )
[19:24] <YoBoY> Next point
[19:24] <YoBoY> III - promote the event.
[19:25] <YoBoY> If you want to have people to join, you need to promote the event.
[19:25] <YoBoY> Blog about the global jam, promote it on your local planet, on mailing lists, on your forum. And do it more than once. Give some useful links to prepare for the event, answer every questions.
[19:29] <YoBoY> For this Jam, the first post announcing the date, the venue, and some good reading was make last month.
[19:29] <YoBoY> and another one, with the real content (translation, documentation, testing, reporting bugs, ...) last week
[19:30] <YoBoY> This week we plan to make another post, and use the forum and the mailing lists
[19:31] <YoBoY> We are proud this year to have a workshop on translation. Lot of people ask for that type of workshop, but it's really not easy to find someone to explain how translation work
[19:32] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Is French Jam one of popular jams?
[19:32] <YoBoY> Don't know if the Global Jam is popular, or if it's just because it's an Ubuntu event :)
[19:34] <YoBoY> Paris is a wonderful city. lot of people love free software, and lot of people like Ubuntu.
[19:34] <YoBoY> Like I said, our last jam we had more than 50 people, it's a big Jam
[19:35] <YoBoY> Other countries are doing "smaller" jams, but with more real contributions, real work on the bugs, the translations, or other things
[19:35] <YoBoY> we can't really compare
[19:37] <YoBoY> I think our work it's to open the doors, let people see what they can do, how we make Ubuntu, how free softwares work.
[19:38] <YoBoY> Last point of our Jams
[19:38] <YoBoY> IV - Have fun !
[19:38] <YoBoY> :D
[19:38] <YoBoY> Don't forget, the best part in a Jam is to meet people.
[19:39] <YoBoY> We always start in Paris with a lunch for the members who organize the Jam. We need energy, and it's a good moment to talk.
[19:39] <YoBoY> And at the end of the day, everyone can join us at a pub to share a drink and talk about Ubuntu and free softwares.
[19:40] <YoBoY> It's for me the best part of the events, taking time to talk with new friends.
[19:43] <YoBoY> Everyone in the Ubuntu community, is doing his best to invite new people to contribute to Ubuntu. The Global Jams is a great opportunity for that.
[19:45] <YoBoY> If you can have these 4 points, I'm sure your Jam will rocks too :)
[19:45] <YoBoY> questions ?
[19:46] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: UGJ is twice a year. Right?
[19:46] <YoBoY> Yes, The Ubuntu Global Jam for each releases
[19:47] <YoBoY> so it's twice a year
[19:48] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: What's the best way to get in touch with some LoCo or it's members before comming to Jam?
[19:48] <YoBoY> I think you can start with the LoCo Directory
[19:49] <YoBoY> loco.ubuntu.com
[19:49] <YoBoY> You can see information of the loco teams, and their events
[19:50] <YoBoY> You can also start by posting in the forum of the loco team
[19:51] <YoBoY> some teams, like mine, are very complicate in their organisation (lot of irc channels, mailing lists, ...). Posting a comment on the blog post of the event is also a good first contact
[19:51] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[19:52] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Should you contact LoCo member so they know the amount of people to expect?
[19:54] <YoBoY> yes, you can tell the organiser of the jam you are coming. It's important if you come to help, not just to assist.
[19:55] <YoBoY> we can have 70 people in our venue, we plan to have around 50, so for us it's not really important
[19:56] <YoBoY> But for other jams, where the venue is smaller, it's good to tell them you are comming
[19:56] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[19:57] <YoBoY> by the way, don't forget to take network wire, ... or ask what they need ^^
[20:00] <YoBoY> ok, thanks everyone, it's time for me to leave :)
[20:00] <YoBoY> Have good jams and don't forget to have fun :)
[20:00] <nigelb> \o/
[20:00] <nigelb> Thanks YoBoY
[20:00] <nigelb> And next up, we have itnet7, Give him a cheer folks
[20:01] <itnet7> YAY!!!!
[20:01] <itnet7> j/k
[20:01] <itnet7> Hey there everyone and welcome to "Global Jam Florida Style" itnet7 here, one of the leaders of the Florida Team, and also on the LoCo Council here to talk abou the Florida Team and our Jams ....
[20:01] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
[20:02] <itnet7> The Florida Team has always partipated in UGJ's. Our first Ubuntu Global Jam was in Orlando. When we first held an UG Jam we tried to have it in one City, thinking that it would be an opportunity for us to meet up with others that we have worked with and collaborated with Online.
[20:03] <itnet7> Unfortunately, due to rising fuel costs, and time constraints....
[20:03] <itnet7> We decided to encourage others to host an event nearby if they would like to be involved.  We are holding two events, One in Lakeland and the other in Melbourne.
[20:04] <itnet7> For those of you that haven't had a chance to participate yet. The Ubuntu Global Jam is a global online and in Real Life event where people come together and use their talents to work the upcoming release of Ubuntu. During this time typically teams will work on: Bug triaging, Documentation revision, Packaging and Translations, etcetera.
[20:05] <itnet7> The idea is to borrow some suggestions from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
[20:06] <itnet7> but also feel free to come up with your own ideas and ways that you can help to improve the next release!
[20:06] <itnet7> For example... in Lakeland...mhall119 and other attendees are going to work on the Summit Scheduler for UDS. They will collaborate to fix bugs and add new enhancements to the Summit Web-Application. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/729/detail/ to see further info about this event.
[20:07] <itnet7> any questions so far?
[20:07] <itnet7> well that brings me to a good point
[20:07] <itnet7> If you, yourself or others around you are involved with Ubuntu but haven't already organized an event, we currently have 35 events on the LoCo Directory
[20:08] <itnet7> There are some pretty good descriptions up there, that can give insight on to what is planned and could possibly help you generate a few ideas of your own!
[20:09] <itnet7> We have had around 15-20 in attendance at our Jams
[20:09] <itnet7> All with different technical levels, and skills
[20:09] <itnet7> and everyone collaborates and has a really great time!
[20:10] <itnet7> It's important to note that you don't really need to have that many people come in order to host an Ubuntu Global Jam
[20:10] <itnet7> Even if it's only one or two at most, that would still be awesome, and you're still contributing :-P
[20:10] <itnet7> :-)
[20:11] <itnet7> We usually mail our team mailing list about 2 - 4 weeks in advance to let everyone know where we are planning to hold our events
[20:12] <itnet7> We're hoping that this encourages them to either drive to one of our events, or host their own!
[20:13] <itnet7> In the Melbourne, FL event... I plan to try and take about 5-10 people throught the beginning step of getting their accounts up to speed in Launchpad
[20:13] <itnet7> and then showing them the basics of triaging bugs
[20:14] <itnet7> I also plan on bringing some thumbdrives with Natty Beta 1 on it in case any one that hasn't wants to take Natty for spin (live).
[20:15] <itnet7> Our event in Melbourne is scheduled for 4 hours, which is a pretty decent amount of time. We are planning to go out afterward and have dinner as a group
[20:16] <itnet7> Another big thing is to try and get 1 or 2 people (Depending on how many show up) to take some pictures during the event
[20:18] <itnet7> This is another way to contribute, by sharing pictures afterward, there is a good chance you will encourage others to also host their own events in the future. It also will encourage them to attend your events in the future.
[20:18] <itnet7> Dent, Tweet, Buzz, Facebook, Re-Dent, Re-tweet, Re-buzz, Like
[20:19] <itnet7> Do your best to share progress
[20:19] <itnet7> and if you're working towards goals, share youre accomplishments
[20:20] <itnet7> If someone brand new that has never been to an Ubuntu Global Jam attends, and sumbit's his/her first bug dent it to #ugj
[20:22] <itnet7> Or if you're working on a patch and it's accepted during your jam, then brag about that too!
[20:23] <itnet7> It keeps everyone in the loop, and allows for us to all share in each other's accomplishments
[20:27] <itnet7> Here are some pictures of our previous jams....
[20:27] <itnet7> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GlobalBugJam/Stories?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=fl_loco_Globaljam_022009_sm.jpg
[20:28] <itnet7> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sanguinetangox/3981704091/in/pool-1277863@N23/
[20:31] <itnet7> So, Venues... Here in the US we are able to reserve conference rooms in our Public Libraries. We are required to submit and application, with the date and time we would like to reserve it
[20:31] <itnet7> I am sure it's similar around the world
[20:32] <ClassBot> pleia2 asked: What kind of venues does the FL team use?
[20:32] <itnet7> Our libraries have decent enough wifi to install and application or two, but not much more than that
[20:32] <itnet7> the plus side, it's free to reserve a room usually
[20:33] <itnet7> You just want to verify whether or not you are allowed to bring in drinks and snacks, as we've seen some libraries in Florida that wouldn't let us bring in any food/beverages
[20:34] <itnet7> Local Coffee Shops are also a great place, (Starbucks included of course)
[20:35] <itnet7> but you can probably take you're time and locate a nice family owned coffee shop that would be glad for you to have your event there!
[20:38] <itnet7> You can check with Hotels as well. Especially if you have some friends that work there. You can also ask for a Hotel Manager and let him know you're not selling anything and ask if he would allow you to use one of their small conference rooms
[20:42] <itnet7> We also have some restaurants near us that have "Community Rooms" that they let us use. In return each of us orders stuff to eat and drink throughout the time we're there
[20:43] <itnet7> It's a good idea to call around and see what places have what if you're unsure
[20:45] <itnet7> If you think of a great place, call them and check and make sure they have wifi, and ask if a group of your size needs reservations, and find out of there is any cost to reserve, (some places do try to charge small fees to reserve to guarantee they don't lose out on potential business)
[20:47] <itnet7> We have held our events in coffee Shops and Libraries mostly
[20:47] <itnet7> and try to schedule a social event afterwards... Like Dinner and/or a Movie
[20:50] <itnet7> I was asked: Did you throw beach parties as a part of UGJ?
[20:50] <itnet7> So far, not yet!
[20:50] <itnet7> It would be a good idea with a little more planning to potentially have a bbq at the beach as the social event
[20:50] <itnet7> barbeque
[20:51] <itnet7> With tethering and netbooks we could probably work at one of the pavillions!
[20:51] <itnet7> Good idea
[20:51] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[20:51] <itnet7> We haven't yet, but it has potential :-)
[20:52] <itnet7> At the beaches here, they are more like County Parks
[20:53] <itnet7> They have huge Pavillions just off of the beach. A lot of them have power outlets and a shady nice breeze!
[20:54] <itnet7> If anyone has any specific questions drop me a line at itnet7<at>ubuntu<dot>com
[20:55] <itnet7> mhall119 wanted to share with everyone that his event started with only he and one other person in mind, and now it has grown to 6 or 7
[20:55] <itnet7> so please be encouraged!
[20:56] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[20:56] <itnet7> two people are enough to get started, and your jam can be equally successful with only two!!
[20:58] <itnet7> Well I'd like to thank everyone that is taking part in the UGJ bootcamp and thanks to nigelb for putting this together!!
[20:59] <itnet7> Or I should say the Classroom Team!!
[20:59] <itnet7> Thanks for having us share!
[21:01] <akgraner> Hi all!
[21:01] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
[21:02] <akgraner> Thanks itnet7 and YoBoY...you all are awesome sessions to follow not sure I can add to what you have said but I'll try..:-)
[21:02] <akgraner> My name is Amber Graner and I'm part of the North Carolina LoCo Team
[21:03] <akgraner> I've organized on local global jam and one virtual global jam
[21:03] <akgraner> before I get started how many people in the channel have attended a global jam?
[21:04] <akgraner> (you can answer in #ubuntu-classoom-chat)
[21:05] <akgraner> alrighty.. so I have to say Ubuntu Global Jam is one of my favorite Ubuntu events
[21:06] <akgraner> and here's why - you are only limited by your imagination as to what the event can be
[21:06] <akgraner> there was discussion in the NC loco team in 2009 about what a global jam *had* to be
[21:06] <akgraner> and there was discussion on limiting what it could be
[21:07] <akgraner> in the end it can be what whomever is organizing it wants it to be
[21:07] <akgraner> from coffee hours to bug, translation, document, etc jams
[21:08] <akgraner> or it can become a ubucon during global jam - so I love it!
[21:08] <akgraner> Here is  a link to some of the pictures from one of the one we held in NC - http://akgraner.com/?p=155
[21:09] <akgraner> it was held at a local (local to Lake Lure North Carolina) historic hotel
[21:09] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Does that mean you don't have to know how to patch bugs or translate in order to be a part of UGJ?
[21:10] <akgraner> MeanEYE, that's right! I don't write code or translate
[21:10] <akgraner> I just like to tell people about Ubuntu
[21:10] <akgraner> and share what I have learned or learning
[21:11] <akgraner> however there are other people who do those things I invite to global jams
[21:11] <akgraner> the picks you see in the link above had the following - people were triaging bugs, writing patches, filing bugs, and others were dropping by to find out what ubuntu was
[21:12] <akgraner> s/picks/pics
[21:12] <akgraner> it was truly a come as you are event where we asked people to tell us what they wanted to know about ubuntu or let us know what they wanted to learn about the kernel etc
[21:13] <akgraner> as we were lucky enough to have some of the kernel present for this event
[21:14] <akgraner> During this upcoming global jam we have members of the loco team who will be hosting an install fest at one of the LUG meetings in the Asheville, NC area
[21:14] <akgraner> so global jam can really take on many shapes and forms
[21:15] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: How much in advance dates are set for UGJ? It might help people to organise a bit better if they are not from the same country.
[21:16] <akgraner> great question - however, there is not a set answer here - there are a lot of variable..but here is my rule of thumb...and please let me know if this helps
[21:16] <akgraner> for a UGJ as soon as the dates are announced start looking for venues...
[21:16] <akgraner> so hotels will give you space if it is there off season
[21:17] <akgraner> other venues need 4-6 weeks notice
[21:17] <akgraner> others need less than 48 hours - so you will have to get to know the venues in your area
[21:18] <akgraner> start with places like - libraries, coffee shops, pubs, hotels, convention centers (if you are expecting large groups and can work it into another event)
[21:18] <akgraner> also many loco team members open their homes to hosting a global jam
[21:19] <akgraner> even though I said it can be anything you want it to be as it pertains to ubuntu  - it is helpful to have some goals in mind
[21:20] <akgraner> for example - this global jam might be a good time to try out natty and have a goal of filing x number of bugs
[21:20] <akgraner> or maybe if you are in a coffee shop to hand out so many fliers to people who have never heard of Ubuntu or FOSS before
[21:21] <akgraner> itnet7, and YoBoY covered a lot and I don't want to repeat all of what they said - so are their any specific questions I can help answer before I keep talking?
[21:22] <ClassBot> BbluE asked: No one has figured out if Natty is going to have SLI or Crossfire, for multiple nVidia or ATI, video cards, have they?
[21:23] <akgraner> No one has figured this one out yet..(as I was just informed)  back to global jam questions
[21:24] <akgraner> so back to global jam - :-)
[21:24] <akgraner> partnering with LUG groups is also a fun what to have a great global jam as well
[21:26] <ClassBot> mdevenish asked: Should I install Natty beta before attending a global jam or install during the jam?
[21:26] <akgraner> mdevenish, nope...
[21:26] <akgraner> unless the goal of the jam is to file bugs and test natty
[21:27] <akgraner> and even then you could do that without installing it
[21:29] <akgraner> there are those who always want to do something technical at global jams and there are those who want to do more social and advocate stuff at global jams and that's ok and there is no reason why you can't incorporate a little of all of it into a global jam
[21:30] <akgraner> also if you can't be part of what the loco team (proper) is doing don't let that keep you from having your own global jam
[21:30] <akgraner> just let the team know so they can add it to the list of events taking place throughout your loco area
[21:31] <akgraner> for those who were asking about what makes up a global jam  here is the wiki page that describes it - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
[21:33] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Any ideas so far about connecting global jams with live streaming video?!
[21:33] <akgraner> itnet7, and I talked about this a while back
[21:34] <akgraner> it's all a matter of having the right internet connections to be able to stream the events
[21:35] <akgraner> it's a great idea and I believe itnet7 has actually broadcast some of the FL events
[21:35] <ClassBot> chadadavis asked: do all the events happen at the same time, so that groups can communicate online (IRC) as well. Or is the focus more on the local, personal interaction?
[21:36] <akgraner> yes :-) while the focus is often on getting together in person there is nothing stopping a team or project from hosting a virtual global jam event
[21:37] <akgraner> if the goal is to clean up wiki documents during the global jam and people on a team live hours apart from one another then the coordination and wiki clean up can happen online during the global jam weekend
[21:38] <akgraner> much the way a bug day happens
[21:39] <ClassBot> Lancer asked: Where can I find documentation on past UGJs?
 Lancer: http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/195/detail/ lists the ones from August of last year
[21:39] <akgraner> thanks mhall119 for posting that link...
[21:40] <akgraner> the UGJ wiki gives many suggestions on types of activities you can do at your global jam
[21:40] <akgraner> if you or your team is new to global jams it's a great place to start
[21:42] <akgraner> anything else?
[21:43] <akgraner> something I haven't touched on that you still have questions about?
[21:45] <akgraner> also you can add the ubuntu global jam banners to your wiki pages, websites and blog posts
[21:45] <akgraner> those banners are found on the bottom of the UGJ wiki page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
[21:46] <akgraner> also if you are looking for posters, fliers etc a good place to get material like is http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/en/
[21:46] <ClassBot> mhall119 asked: Can we bring non-technical people to jams? Family, friends, children and significant others?
[21:46] <akgraner> mhall119, yes of course - I drag every non-technical person I can find to ubuntu events :-)
[21:47] <akgraner> but if you do be prepared to listen to their feedback
[21:47] <akgraner> see if they will tell you what they like or don't like about using Ubuntu
[21:48] <akgraner> *without* being judgmental
[21:48] <akgraner> we all come to use Linux and open source in our own way so *don't* make them feel anything negative b/c they aren't using Ubuntu yet
[21:49] <akgraner> make sure your event is very inclusive and know the audience you are are inviting
[21:49] <akgraner> (well as much as possible)
[21:50] <ClassBot> mhall119 asked: Where can I send that feedback once I get it?
[21:51] <akgraner> Good Questions - that would depend on what the feedback is about...:-) I would ask your loco leader if you aren't sure who should get the feedback...
[21:51] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[21:51] <akgraner> I personally try to look through the various teams and see who it needs to go to
[21:52] <akgraner> ie if it's about Ubuntu One then I let those folks know
[21:52] <akgraner> if it's about the desktop I find someone on the desktop team etc
[21:52] <akgraner> and I usually send an email with all of the feedback and not little bits here and there
[21:53] <akgraner> and if all else fails and I can't find the right team - then I start asking people until I get to the right person
[21:54] <akgraner> make sense?
[21:54] <akgraner> ok we have about 5 more minutes
[21:54] <akgraner> anything else?
[21:55] <akgraner> oh yeah another fun activity is to answer or vote on AskUbuntu questions
[21:55] <akgraner> it's also a good what to see if questions people may have at your global jam have already been asked and answered there as well
[21:56] <akgraner> http://askubuntu.com/
[21:56] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[21:57] <akgraner> So remember - have fun, be social, and go with what you know
[21:57] <akgraner> if you know about bug triaging teach someone that
[21:57] <akgraner> if you like fixing wikis go with that
[21:57] <akgraner> if your passion is telling people about all that is cool with ubuntu then do that
[21:58] <akgraner> remember just make it an event people will want to participate in again...and it will grow
[21:59] <akgraner> Thanks y'all hope this helps...
[21:59] <akgraner> if there are any other questions for me you can find me on irc or email at akgraner  @   ubuntu {dot} com
[22:01] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
[22:02] <xdatap> Hi everybody, thanks for coming!
[22:03] <xdatap> My name is Paolo Sammicheli, I'm an Ubuntu member from the Italian LoCo Team, and today we'll talk about ISO Testing.
[22:03] <xdatap> Let's start with the most important question:
[22:04] <xdatap> Why should one try to test Ubuntu?
[22:04] <xdatap> Because it's fun!
[22:04] <xdatap> because it's a valuable contribution to Ubuntu
[22:05] <xdatap> and because you will learn a lot of things :)
[22:05] <xdatap> Let's see, now, how to test Ubuntu!
[22:05] <xdatap> You might already know that Ubuntu has a 6-month release cycle, which means that every 6 months we have a new Ubuntu release.
[22:06] <xdatap> Less known is the fact that, before the final release, several development releases are launched: Alphas, Betas and Release Candidate.
[22:07] <xdatap> Every cycle slightly changes his schedule, due several reason, but it's published since the beginning in a wiki page, so that everybody can be aware about what's going on.
[22:08] <xdatap> You can see the Natty schedule on the following link:
[22:08] <xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
[22:08] <xdatap> For all these releases, we have several kind of tests.
[22:09] <xdatap> The ISO Test is a test performed few days before the milestone release, in which we want to be sure that the installer works properly and the live version starts correctly.
[22:09] <xdatap> We also test the upgrade process and the installation from windows with Wubi.
[22:09] <xdatap> we have a question
[22:09] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Does testing in virtualization software counts?
[22:10] <xdatap> altough there isn't a useless test, we would like you try your hardware during tests
[22:11] <xdatap> if you can't install ubuntu on your pc you can still perform the LIVE test
[22:11] <xdatap> The tool for reporting this kind of test is called ISO Tracker and it's available on the following link:
[22:11] <xdatap> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
[22:12] <xdatap> As you can see we are testing Natty Beta1 in all the officially supported flavors. These tests started today :)
[22:12] <xdatap> For each flavor you can find several test case.
[22:12] <xdatap> we have another question
[22:12] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Should we prioritize Ubuntu Desktop over Server edition in testing?!
[22:13] <xdatap> We will cover all the images on the ISO Tracker. We will not release Ubuntu if an official image is not tested.
[22:14] <xdatap> As community member you're invited to prioritize the image you care
[22:14] <xdatap> and if you want to help, take a look of the images not well covered and give us an hand :)
[22:15] <xdatap> let's talk about "testcase"
[22:15] <xdatap> A test case is a list of action to perform in order to complete the test.
[22:15] <xdatap> If you are able to perform all the actions successfully it mean that the test is PASSED.
[22:16] <xdatap> Otherwise it means that the test is FAILED.
[22:17] <xdatap> Often you will find bugs which does not makes FAILED your test. It's useful that you will report it on launchpad and you will include their IDs in the test report.
[22:17] <xdatap> You can see how to report a test on the following link:
[22:17] <xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures
[22:18] <xdatap> As described on the page above, filling your account on the ISO Tracker with your email and selecting the Email notification flag you will get an email each time there's a new image available for tests.
[22:19] <xdatap> You can choose which test case you want to test in which image so the email will contain the direct link for the test.
[22:20] <xdatap> To avoid to download the image every time I recommend to use zsync or rsync, as described on the following link:
[22:20] <xdatap> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ZsyncCdImage
[22:21] <xdatap> any question about what covered until now?
[22:22] <xdatap> ok, let's going on
[22:22] <xdatap> ISO Testing it's not the only test we perform over the CD Images.
[22:23] <xdatap> We have also different test programs like Laptop, Video Drivers, Desktop, etc.
[22:23] <xdatap> What's the difference? Basically it changes WHAT we test and WHEN.
[22:24] <xdatap> One example: Laptop testing perform tests after each Milestone release and with the previous stable releases providing testcases for the hardware compatibility:
[22:24] <xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Laptop
[22:25] <xdatap> Xorg tests the nVidia Video Card Proprietary Drivers every week:
[22:26] <xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Testing/ProprietaryDrivers/Natty/WeeklyProgram
[22:27] <xdatap> Once you learn how to contribute to one program, like ISO Testing, you will be able to easily contribute to all of these tests because the tools are the same.
[22:28] <xdatap> we've a question
[22:28] <ClassBot> chadadavis asked: I see people testing 20110328.1 as 'beta 1'? Should we not be waiting for an 'official' beta, or are these the same?
[22:28] <xdatap> as I said, we're actually testing the beta images before it's release. So we're checking if live session works, if installer works, etc
[22:29] <xdatap> after we will release the image we will test the rest: desktop, application, etc
[22:29] <xdatap> so, if you want to help now, you can test the images on the tracker before their release
[22:29] <xdatap> later you can test the milestone more deeply
[22:30] <ClassBot> chadadavis asked: Is ATI driver testing still planned? Or are we waiting on AMD to make an update for the current kernel still?
[22:31] <xdatap> I've no info about ATI testing next weeks. We started testing nVidia two weeks ago. Try send an email to QA ML: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa to be sure
[22:32] <ClassBot> ask asked: is best an Intel q9400 or a Intel q6600 ?
[22:32] <xdatap> honestly I don't really know :) Best for what? Try ask on the forum or ask Ubuntu website :)
[22:34] <xdatap> let's going on, and let's talk about LoCo Teams
[22:34] <xdatap> If you are involved in a LoCo and you're interested in ISO Testing take also a look at the LoCo Testing Team How To:
[22:34] <xdatap> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/LoCoTeam
[22:35] <xdatap> How it works? You can setup a team inside your LoCo, choose a test to "adopt" and then divide the effort with your team members.
[22:36] <xdatap> The Italian experience shown that organizing this kind of activity helps in gathering new contributors and keeping them motivated.
[22:37] <xdatap> Take a look on the survey I made before last UDS, you will find very interesting data about it:
[22:37] <xdatap> http://xdatap1.wordpress.com/2010/12/04/italian-loco-testing-team-survey/
[22:37] <xdatap> we've another question
[22:37] <ClassBot> chadadavis asked: It sounds like ISO testing is primarily a sanity check of the ISO image, the boot, the video driver, the live image, before it can be tagged 'beta' for more exhaustive 'Desktop testing' ?
[22:38] <xdatap> exactly, we do tests on the ISO Image before more extensive tests
[22:39] <xdatap> and we do it every MILESTONE: Alpha1 Alpha2 AlphaN, Betas and Release Candidates
[22:40] <xdatap> In the Italian Team we adopted the Live Testcase. I was looking for something very easy to attract new contributors. And it worked! :)
[22:41] <xdatap> Live test is a very good way to start learning all the test process, IMHO
[22:41] <xdatap> and keep talking about LoCo Teams...
[22:41] <xdatap> The Ubuntu Hall of Fame shows test results per LoCo, so it's nice to play a competition between LoCo in testing:
[22:42] <xdatap> http://hall-of-fame.ubuntu.com
[22:43] <xdatap> So, how to start with ISO Testing?
[22:43] <xdatap> Take a look at the QA Website (http://qa.ubuntu.com) and at the Testing page:
[22:44] <xdatap> http://qa.ubuntu.com/testing/
[22:44] <xdatap> Join the QA Mailing List (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa) and for any question you will find us in the #ubuntu-testing IRC Channel.
[22:45] <xdatap> Ubuntu Testing: Let's make this rock!
[22:45] <xdatap> :)
[22:46] <xdatap> time for Question and Answer!
[22:49] <ClassBot> chadadavis asked: who/where/how do I send feedback regarding issues that should land in the release notes for the beta 1? I guess anything gets filed as a bug first, and then?
[22:51] <xdatap> yes, the first place is launchpad, filling a bug. Then, if you fill a test in the ISO Tracker you'll have the field where insert the bug id. If you're in doubt about the specific bug you can find the team on irc, #ubuntu-testing and on the QA Mailing list
[22:51] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[22:55] <ClassBot> chadadavis asked: is there supposed to be one testing group per ISO? Because there are Mac-specific ISO, but all the amd64 tests seem to be grouped together.
[22:56] <xdatap> no, how the images are listed on the tracker doesn't reflect the teams working on it
[22:56] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[22:56] <xdatap> afaik the images are listed in build order
[22:56] <xdatap> I hope I answered the question
[23:00] <ClassBot> MeanEYE asked: Is 700MB limit just a fictional limit invented to keep Ubuntu small and agile. Do you see this increasing in size?
[23:00] <xdatap> the limit is because the CD can handle 700mb maximum
[23:00] <xdatap> and we want to ship CDs, not DVD or othere media
[23:01] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/03/28/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
[23:03] <pleia2> if you missed any sessions today, I've linked to the logs for each session on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJamBootcamp


[00:00] <HazRPG> freakyclown: I just thought (showing your talk to one of my friends), in VLC if you do ALT+H, it strips out the UI stuff, so instead of going into fullscreen you can take out the Play/Pause/Stop/etc buttons stuff
[00:01] <HazRPG> freakyclown: to revert back, you can use ALT+H again
[00:01] <HazRPG> oops, sorry... typo fail, its CTRL+H
[00:01] <HazRPG> just incase you ever need to do a talk with videos in future, and the fullscreen mode seems to be stripping stuff out... you can do that :)
[00:03] <ball> brb
[00:29] <HazRPG> aww, clitrack isn't on the site :(
[00:30] <HazRPG> I was intrigued as to what happens to images uploaded to facebook since it essentially shrinks the image down that you've uploaded
[00:49] <ali1234> what do you mean "stripping stuff out"?
[00:50] <ali1234> you mean if it crops because of aspect ratio?
[01:34] <HazRPG> no, the exif, etc data embedded into jpgs
[06:42] <HazRPG> morning \o
[07:02] <MartijnVdS> woo fresh kernel
[07:43] <HazRPG> ?
[07:44] <popey> morning
[07:44] <MartijnVdS> \o popey
[07:44] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: there's a new kernel in oneiric this morning
[07:44] <HazRPG> popey: morning :)
[07:44] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: ah
[07:45] <HazRPG> brb, just going to do a quick reboot
[07:46] <MartijnVdS> just did that :)
[07:46] <MartijnVdS> SSD booting \o/
[08:30] <daubers> Morning
[09:28] <HazRPG> daubers: morning
[09:29] <HazRPG> bah, I'm knackered... trying to fight with 2 different mysql databases is not a fun way to spend a Sunday morning!
[09:41] <HazRPG> AlanBell: Just been going through the videos on blip.tv for oggcamp11 (to see what I missed out on :() - Thought your talk was interesting! Trying to organise real-world stuff can be *very* difficult (in my experience) when it comes to people enthusiastic about computers/IT/etc... I think the biggest leap is trying to get/do something that encourages an experience that they couldn't already get at home. Remember, most of us are usually lazy and would
[09:43] <HazRPG> AlanBell: What we've started doing at CLUG is having a meet every 2nd and 4th Sunday of the month - but so far we usually get a turn out of say 2-3 people tops at any one time (despite being in a building designed for members only - and with a built in pub!)
[09:48] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:53] <daubers> o/
[09:53]  * daubers can go home from work shortly \o/
[09:57] <brobostigon> :)
[10:12] <Laney> What should I make for Sunday dinner?
[10:12] <popey> curry !
[10:13] <Laney> did curried goat last week
[10:15] <popey> \o/ goats!
[10:16] <ali1234> curry goat?
[10:19] <Laney> i'm not sure how to respond to that question
[10:37] <HazRPG> o.O I just got an e-mail from Google saying the following: http://picpaste.com/Screenshot-6-vexcSbgY.png
[10:39] <HazRPG> Oh, I forgot I set that up... o.O : http://www.google.com/alerts/
[10:39] <popey> you have a google alert for your own name? vain ? :D
[10:39] <Myrtti> I have one for mine, doesn't everyone have?
[10:39] <Myrtti> *shrug*
[10:40] <HazRPG> popey: out of paranoia, when I found out that searching for your name shows your address because of the whole public electoral thing
[10:40] <HazRPG> Myrtti: apparently its just us :P
[10:41] <Laney> there are people who don't opt out of the edited register?
[10:44] <HazRPG> Laney: Didn't know you could o.O
[10:44] <gord> you're so vain, you probably think this google alert is about you...
[10:44] <popey> :D
[10:44] <HazRPG> Laney: I bet most probably don't know either...
[10:44] <Laney> maybe people should read forms they fill in
[10:45] <HazRPG> Laney: I didn't fill it in, I was automatically registered in...
[10:45] <HazRPG> you think if I filled it in I wouldn't tick the "opt-out" box?
[10:45] <Laney> there's an annual canvas
[10:45] <Laney> if someone else filled it out for you, you should take it up with them
[10:46] <popey> mine arrived in the post about 10 mins ago
[10:46] <HazRPG> considering my sister doesn't vote, and its only me and here that live here... I can't think who'd auto-fill me in
[10:46]  * czajkowski hugs popey and runs away
[10:47] <HazRPG> I even moved house and I get a "vote at your nearest poll" when the next election came through, without me registering that I'd moved
[10:47] <HazRPG> ... and the house is in my step-dads name o.O
[10:48] <HazRPG> also, I've nagged several times on sites that had my details, along with the local council... and never hear back from any of them
[10:54] <wolfkin> i need help, I can not type in chinese
[11:04] <Myrtti> myyh
[11:04] <Myrtti> Finland :-|
[11:09] <jpds> Clearly didn't have ibus running.
[11:39] <isleofmandan> Anyone answer a quick question about bug reporting?
[11:40] <AlanBell> o/ isleofmandan
[11:41] <isleofmandan> When apport collects data, and sends me to launchpad, if I choose an already existing bug it seems that all the data collected by apport is discarded. If I find a new bug, things get attached to the report. Is that normal behaviour?
[12:01] <penguin42> I think so
[12:03] <popey> isleofmandan: yes
[12:03] <ali1234> isleofmandan: there's a way to add the logs etc to an existing bug report but i forget how
[12:03] <ali1234> and it is probably unneccessary anyway
[12:03] <popey> isleofmandan: you can run apport-collect with the bug number I think
[12:03] <popey> or file a new bug and mark it a dupe of the other one
[12:04] <isleofmandan> Thanks. Just seemed odd to collect the data and not do anything with it.
[12:04] <popey> yeah
[12:04] <popey> isleofmandan: how goes the lug?
[12:05] <isleofmandan> I've just done the tweets/email publicity thing. Having our first get together next Sunday morning
[12:05] <isleofmandan> hopefully it won't just be me!
[12:05] <popey> have you asked mark if he's around?
[12:05] <isleofmandan> I CC'd him....
[12:05] <popey> cool
[12:06] <popey> he travells a lot I understand
[12:06] <popey> so might not be about
[12:06] <isleofmandan> I expect he lives here for 'tax purposes' ;)
[12:08] <popey> :D
[12:08] <popey> perhaps
[12:08] <popey> doing a hotblack desiato
[12:10] <isleofmandan> lol
[12:24] <MissAngel> hi
[12:25] <brobostigon> afternoonings MissAngel
[12:28] <MissAngel> are there any options for proper kde integration with ubuntu one?
[12:28] <MissAngel> or should I stick with dropbox
[12:30] <popey> probably better off asking in #kubuntu
[12:32] <MissAngel> ok
[12:33] <bigcalm_lappy486> Afternoon popey et al
[12:33] <popey> pip pip
[12:34] <bigcalm_lappy486> You invaded my dreams last night, how rude
[12:34] <bigcalm_lappy486> Actually, I think a lot of people from the pre-oggcamp bbq where invading my dreams
[12:42] <penguin42> was it something about the meat?
[12:53] <bigcalm_lappy486> Pendulum: there were melting gummy bears
[12:53] <bigcalm_lappy486> Doh
[12:53] <bigcalm_lappy486> penguin42: there were melting gummy bears
[13:07] <Pendulum> bigcalm: you must really love me :P
[13:24] <laptop> jjj
[13:26] <daubers> \o/
[13:26] <Guest74624> ho
[13:26]  * daubers is starting to have success with matt stuffs
[13:32]  * daubers waits for the soldering iron to cool down
[13:43] <tris2468> ubuntu car: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonnyentropy/6112073746/
[13:49] <penguin42> melting gummy bears is cruel
[14:02] <suprengr> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14779014 - doesn't anybody in the police watch Top Gear?  ;)
[14:03] <ali1234> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14779772 lol
[14:04] <suprengr> ali1234, now that *is* cool
[14:04] <ali1234> not really its just funny
[14:04] <suprengr> probably the best broken down coach..............................................................
[14:05] <suprengr> ....................................................................... in the world
[14:05] <ali1234> stop the coach, get off, wind up the local kids, and then the coach breaks down when they decide to make their getaway
[14:05] <ali1234> priceless
[14:09] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Matt Daubney] Arduinos, MQTT and Light levels - http://daubers.co.uk/2011/09/04/arduinos-mqtt-and-light-levels/
[15:20] <Featurefreak> woah, dude, it's 4:20 on a sunday, damn my weekend is gone
[15:20] <Featurefreak> anyone tried out rhythmbox or other music apps on a low powered netbook, i'm finding banshee is just a bit heavy for my old Eeepc
[15:29] <Featurefreak> mmmkay google shows me a few light weight options on omgubuntu, guayadeck, Beatbox, DeadBeef,,, anyone tried any of these?
[15:33] <tris2468> Featurefreak: Rhythmbox works fine on my eeepc 701
[15:33] <Featurefreak> banshee works, just it tends to drag down my machine when trying to do other operations
[15:34] <exobuzz> ubuntu peoples - any of you fancy a demo scene event? http://www.sunrisedemoparty.co.uk/
[15:34] <exobuzz> next weekend, luton. going to be good fun
[15:34] <Featurefreak> banshee and rhythmbox have similar RAM profiles when playing back as far as i can tell, but not sure haven't tested rhthmbox for just cpu load.
[15:57] <Featurefreak> How do i make use of something like RadioTray in Unity? as no tray icons seems to be supported in Unity,
[15:57] <Featurefreak> similarly AllTray becomes useless
[15:58] <Featurefreak> but just generally, quite a few apps are a bit broken because of unity's lack of a tray
[15:58] <penguin42> is it bad when I read CMake as cake ?
[15:58] <Featurefreak> penguin42: nooo, your baking your apps.. and it's a perfect time for Cake
[15:58] <penguin42> :-)
[15:58] <penguin42> I thought all times were perfect for cake?
[15:59] <Featurefreak> :P
[16:00]  * Featurefreak hummms lazy town / lil jon  bake a cake(remix)   tune
[16:01] <Featurefreak> so unless they add notification area support for radio-tray, i'm boned
[16:01] <Featurefreak> :(
[16:01] <Featurefreak> i really wanted to try it out
[16:01] <Featurefreak> well, moving on to deadbeef
[16:01] <Featurefreak> penguin42: the only time that's not perfect for cake is steak time
[16:01] <penguin42> hmm that's a hard one to call
[16:02]  * Featurefreak wishes steak and bj day was real
[16:04] <popey> eh?
[16:12] <Featurefreak> arrrg,, that's driving me nuts, now i minimised my music player with teh "minimize to task tray" option enabled,, and yes, it dissapears.. :(
[16:17] <ikonia> what's going on in the UK today ?
[16:17] <ikonia> about 5:15 yes ?
[16:17] <jpds> ikonia: Yes.
[16:17] <popey> dunno
[16:18] <ikonia> there is a daylight shift here so I can't be %100 certain
[16:18] <ikonia> it's either 4:15 or 5:15
[16:18] <popey> neither
[16:18] <ikonia> oh
[16:19] <ikonia> what time is it ?
[16:19] <popey> 17:19
[16:19] <popey> :D
[16:19] <ikonia> smart
[16:19] <ikonia> are you back from camping now, I think you said saturday ?
[16:20] <popey> yeah, back home now
[16:20] <ikonia> so you have connection now without having to be in a field
[16:20] <popey> indeed
[16:21] <ikonia> good break ?
[16:21] <popey> very
[16:21] <ikonia> not long enough, or just enough
[16:21] <popey> first place I've been where there is a hot tub in the garden
[16:21] <popey> kids _loved_ it
[16:22] <ikonia> that's slick
[17:13] <bigcalm> Pendulum: oh, but I do :)
[17:17] <awilkins> Ooh, nice touch, xchat-gnome packaging drops you into this channel by default now
[17:18] <awilkins> Any one else getting this annoying thing where the auto-dimming on their laptop is inverted with Oneiric?
[17:18] <gord> inverted?
[17:19] <awilkins> It's bright until you touch a key, then it dims
[17:19] <gord> weird
[17:19] <awilkins> ANd it doesn't turn off when the power is connected either
[17:19] <awilkins> Giving me a headache
[17:19] <gord> apt-get install dconf-tools then use dconf-editor to look at the values setup maybe? can't quite remember where they are but something like org.gnome.power-manager or something
[17:21] <awilkins> Hmm, now it's the right way round again.. no fade though. Maybe if I turn on Compiz effects
[17:22] <awilkins> Or try UNity 2d
[17:22] <gord> compiz really can't have anything to do with screen brightness
[17:22] <awilkins> It was the loss of the fade transition that made me suspect it but I know very little
[17:24] <awilkins> GAh, and why can't they make the GTK tree control expand trees on the right cursor key ....
[17:30] <gord> awilkins, because you haven't filed a but about it in gtk? ;)
[17:30] <gord> "The Toy Store (accessanything) is now listening to your notices on Identi.ca" - i am thrilled...
[17:31] <gord> " accessanything
[17:31] <gord>     The Toy Store
[17:31] <gord>     best catfood online here, just click"
[17:41] <ali1234> why is a toy store selling cat food
[17:41] <ali1234> thats, like, false advertising, man
[19:38] <DJones> Oh dear, El Reg has been hacked
[19:39] <czajkowski> aloha
[19:39] <Azelphur> lol
[19:40] <Azelphur> Anyone recommend a nice sata 3.5 & 2.5 dock?
[19:40] <Azelphur> Something that takes big drives, I have 2TB drives floating about.
[19:58] <AlanBell> http://wikileaks.org/cable/2010/02/10CHIANGMAI18.html interesting . . .
[20:07] <popey> AlanBell: how so?
[20:08] <popey> planning on moving to thailand?
[20:09] <brobostigon> question, why would our adsl modem say, it has a in sync adsl connection, but then as soon as i ping through it, i get 100% packet loss, ?
[20:09] <brobostigon> and have an outside ip addr.
[20:12]  * popey tickles aquarius_
[20:12]  * aquarius_ is tickled
[20:12] <aquarius_> why am I underlined?
[20:12] <AlanBell> popey: read 9 and 10
[20:13]  * AlanBell is blogging it and lacks a headline
[20:13] <aquarius_> hm, there's a different aquarius, claiming to be me
[20:13] <AlanBell> !ghost
[20:13] <AlanBell> "Microsoft Thailand criticise Thailand's pro-open source policies" lacks impact
[20:13] <aquarius_> AlanBell, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna; just a little concerned that this other person declares their name as Stuart Langridge
[20:14] <aquarius> fixed, anyway
[20:14] <aquarius> but hm.
[20:14] <AlanBell> yeah, I wouldn't trust that Stuart Langridge bloke at all
[20:15] <AlanBell> especially not with anything flamable
[20:15] <AlanBell> anyhow, help me write a headline!
[20:16]  * Laney wonders how to pronounce Xournal
[20:16] <AlanBell> zurnal
[20:16] <Laney> aha
[20:16] <Laney> I liked cs-urnal
[20:16] <Laney> cszurnal
[20:19] <AlanBell> brobostigon: the adsl layer might be up, but the tcp bit might be screwed
[20:20] <brobostigon> AlanBell: yes, that seems to be the case, the avidence agrees.
[20:21] <popey> gotcha AlanBell
[20:22] <AlanBell> "Microsoft pulling dirty tricks in Thailand"
[20:28] <popey> do you 'pull' dirty tricks?
[20:31] <DJones> Evening popey Did you have a good holiday
[20:33] <popey> very, yes thanks!
[20:33] <popey> back to work tomorrow :D
[20:34] <DJones> So likely to be a shock to the system
[20:38] <popey> well, i start on a new job so should be fairly easy :D
[20:41] <mgdm> popey: Cool, up to anything new?
[20:44] <popey> still SAP, new customer
[20:44] <shauno> (completely off-topic, but http://www.google.co.nz/ for tomorrow's doodle, today.  Freddie ftw \o/)
[20:44] <popey> SAP on Linux though, which makes it bareable
[20:45] <popey> oh nice shauno
[20:48] <mgdm> popey: ah, cool
[20:59] <bigcalm> Life isn't fair. I'm having to trash my box model email layout and redo it with a table.
[21:00] <mgdm> Breaking: email sucks, film at 11
[21:00] <shauno> that's what you get for putting html in email.  shame on you!
[21:01] <bigcalm> shauno: yes, tell that to every client who wants HTML in their emails
[21:01] <AlanBell> bigcalm: what are you using for delivery?
[21:01] <bigcalm> AlanBell: Um. PHP?
[21:01] <shauno> ironically, most of ours don't, because it fails at email-to-sms gateways
[21:02] <mgdm> shauno: those are a hideous hack gaffer taped to a hideous hack, so... :)
[21:02] <AlanBell> bigcalm: openEMM might be interesting to you
[21:02] <shauno> trying to target sms makes me a happy mutt user :)
[21:02] <AlanBell> it is an email marketing platform
[21:02] <AlanBell> or spam engine
[21:02] <bigcalm> AlanBell: client already has a system in place
[21:03] <AlanBell> ok
[21:03] <bigcalm> I'm meant to be re-skinning their existing stuff. Forgot that email doesn't like the box model
[21:05] <bigcalm> Dragging this client's site out of 2001 is tricky
[21:09] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Alan Bell] Microsoft pulling dirty tricks in Thailand - http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/09/04/microsoft-dirty-thai-trick/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=microsoft-dirty-thai-trick
[21:13] <gord> that is a lot of url for one link
[21:13] <AlanBell> yeah, sorry about that
[21:14] <AlanBell> it is google analytics screwing with the RSS feed
[21:14] <gord> no need to apologise ;) just interesting
[21:15]  * AlanBell lines up a followup article about http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/08/09TOKYO1813.html
[21:15] <gord> ah, so thats why xbmc freaked out and everything died, forgot to install nvidia drivers
[21:15] <gord> impressive what the open source ones can do though, all the advanced stuff we do in unity worked out of the box, active blur behind the dash and all
[21:46] <roy_> hey quick question and i apologise if you get asked this alot but what would you's recommend to someone who wants to develop ubuntu apps for the first time
[21:47] <ball> roy_: What kind of apps?
[21:47] <popey> roy_: quickly
[21:48] <popey> roy_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Quickly
[21:48] <roy_> well at the minute it would just be basic things to help get me started in developing in an ubuntu environment
[21:49] <stuartward> roy_: I would suggest contributing to existing projects as a starting point
[21:49] <ali1234> quickly is neither quick nor easy to use
[21:50] <ball> roy_: developing /what/ though?
[21:50] <ali1234> "apps"
[21:50]  * ball snorts
[21:51] <ali1234> qt creator is about a million times better than anything else on ubuntu
[21:51] <ali1234> pretty much only visual studio is better
[21:51] <roy_> just silly things at the minute like a phone book or game
[21:52] <popey> monodevelop :D
[21:53] <ali1234> is awful
[21:53] <ali1234> basically avoid anything involving gtk
[21:54] <ball> Does Unity use gtk?
[21:54] <ali1234> no it uses nux
[21:54] <ali1234> and unity2d uses qt
[21:57] <ball> Is nux a Canonical thing?
[21:57] <ali1234> yes
[22:07] <ball> Is it a GUI toolkit... something like awt and Xt lumped together?
[22:09] <AlanBell> I think it is *only* for the unity stuff over the top of the desktop
[22:09] <AlanBell> which is one reason they broke on-screen keyboards
[22:11] <ball> brb
[22:16]  * popey shakes his fist at unity drop shadow again
[22:17] <ali1234> according to the docs, nux has a complete reimplementation of the gtk api
[22:19] <ali1234> here is a puzzler for you: http://pastebin.com/SQUW70yn
[22:21] <Laney>  Nux is a graphical user interface toolkit for applications that mixes opengl
[22:21] <Laney>  hardware acceleration with high quality visual rendering.
[22:21] <Laney> World's best package description™
[22:21] <mgdm> ali1234: a complete reimplementation of GTK+? That sounds a bit... insane
[22:22] <ali1234> mgdm: maybe it was a subset
[22:22] <ali1234> i dunno, check the docs
[22:22]  * Laney is sad there are no indicators on gnome-panel 3 yet
[22:22] <ali1234> and it's only API, not 100% functionality
[22:30] <ball> ali1234: Was there something they didn't like about the gtk license, or was there a technical rationale?
[22:30] <ali1234> i dunno, ask gord
[22:30] <ali1234> or #ayatana
[22:30] <AlanBell> there is some technical separation
[22:31] <AlanBell> so the workplace switcher does a compiz zoom out of the 4 desktops
[22:31] <gord> nux is nothing like gtk no
[22:31] <AlanBell> but not the panel and unity gubbins, that stays where it is
[22:32] <AlanBell> is nux useable for anything but unity gord?
[22:32] <ali1234> if you want to do low level graphics stuff use qml
[22:32] <gord> AlanBell, yup you can use it for other stuff
[22:33] <gord> qml is crap for low level graphics...
[22:33] <AlanBell> should onboard be rewritten as a NUX app?
[22:33] <ali1234> i don't mean "lets raep the framebuffer" low level
[22:33] <ali1234> i mean "let's use simple primitives like rectangles sprites instead of complex widgets"
[22:34] <gord> ali1234, thats not low level
[22:34] <ali1234> i know
[22:34] <ali1234> low level is the wrong description
[22:34] <gord> AlanBell, is there a need for it? i mean, nux is C++
[22:36] <AlanBell> gord: well, onboard is broken with unity because it is in the layer below the nux stuff even though it is always on top
[22:36] <AlanBell> should onboard be part of the unity frame?
[22:37] <AlanBell> so a keyboard that pops out of the bottom of the launcher like the dash pops out of the top?
[22:37] <AlanBell> then it would not be subject to layering problems and wouldn't zoom out and be on the wrong desktop or get in the way of other windows etc
[22:37] <gord> AlanBell, nah, i mean unless you want that neat integration that you could get - really somehow who really understands how onboard works just needs to fix either onboard/unity to make them play nice
[22:38] <AlanBell> onboard is a python app, fairly simple
[22:38] <ali1234> on screen keyboard?
[22:38] <AlanBell> yeah
[22:39] <ali1234> i have a nice touchscreen netbook, i could take a look at that
[22:39] <AlanBell> you can't type into the unity search box with it
[22:39] <ali1234> oneiric?
[22:39] <AlanBell> yeah
[22:39] <AlanBell> works in Unity 2d
[22:39] <AlanBell> in 3d you click in the search box then click onboard and the dash closes
[22:40] <ali1234> nux isn't going to help you there
[22:41] <AlanBell> nux isn't a simple fix, certainly
[22:41] <ali1234> it isn't a fix at all
[22:41] <gord> interesting, i wonder if there is any window hint set on the onboard window so we can detect a click on it
[22:42] <AlanBell> where would such a hint be set?
[22:42] <ali1234> in the window creation
[22:42] <gord> in the code somewhere? i'm not at all familiar with how onboard works, or what toolkit it uses
[22:43] <AlanBell> pygtk
[22:43] <ali1234> is it half decent? or would it be better to just start from scratch
[22:43] <ali1234> or just steal whatever meego uses
[22:43] <gord> you can use xprop to find out what hints its setting, xprop -name onboard or whatever it is
[22:44] <AlanBell> ali1234: it is half decent
[22:44] <AlanBell> there may be better alternatives in the pipeline
[22:47] <ali1234> well ok the oneiric installer totally failed on my netbook which already has oneiric, meego and windows 7 installed on it
[22:48] <AlanBell> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~onboard/onboard/main/view/head:/Onboard/KbdWindow.py#L15
[22:48] <AlanBell> that is where it sets up the window
[22:49] <ali1234> self.window.property_change("_NET_WM_STRUT_PARTIAL",
[22:49] <ali1234> bingo
[22:51] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/682173/
[22:51] <AlanBell> gord: xprop output ^^
[22:52] <gord> well no, a window with a strut isn't something we should match on, thats not a good hint - its set by things like docks and panels and stuff
[22:52] <gord> AlanBell, doesn't look like there is anything to match against, kind hard to know if a window is onboard or $random_other_thing
[22:52] <gord> doesn't mean that one can't be distro-patched in though
[22:53] <AlanBell> we can do it upstream if that is easier
[22:54] <AlanBell> it was written for Ubuntu
[22:56] <gord> will need to figure out whats best when i have window manager guys around me tomorrow :)
[22:56] <AlanBell> cool
[22:56] <gord> oh wait tomorrow is holidays in the US, maybe tuesday
[22:57] <AlanBell> I did the theme update to get colours fonts and super key icons matching the updated Ubuntu branding
[22:57] <ali1234> um
[22:57] <ali1234> this is bad
[22:58] <ali1234> it's so slow that pressing a key often results in 50 of that letter
[22:58] <AlanBell> http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/04/21/ubuntu-natty-in-virtualbox-with-unity/
[22:58] <ali1234> keys get stuck down
[22:58] <AlanBell> ali1234: I was getting that behaviour from a physical keyboard with oneirirc
[22:58] <AlanBell> couldn't type in my password
[22:59] <ali1234> never seen that
[22:59] <ali1234> been testing since a3
[22:59] <gord> we'll need to make sure onboard is always on top of unity too
[22:59] <AlanBell> that was when running it in virtualbox
[23:00] <AlanBell> bug 739812
[23:00] <ali1234> also it is horribly layed out
[23:00] <AlanBell> ali1234: it is *far* from perfect
[23:00] <AlanBell> but it is in the repos and on the disk
[23:01] <AlanBell> and does support different themes and layouts and scanning keyboards
[23:01] <ali1234> scanning keyboards?
[23:02] <AlanBell> for use with a switch, it highlights a row at a time and you click when the row you want is there, then it scans columns and you click the letter you want
[23:02] <ali1234> the theming is uneccessary anyway
[23:02] <AlanBell> Stephen Hawkin stuff
[23:02] <AlanBell> the theming is unneccessary, the layouts are important though
[23:03] <AlanBell> scanning I am not sure needs to be on the disk
[23:03] <AlanBell> but it does need to do international layouts
[23:05] <hamitron> does anyone know the keyboard controls for codemasters Jonah Lomu Rugby for DOS? ;)
[23:06] <ging> if the answer is yes for anyone you need to get out more
[23:06] <hamitron> :/
[23:06] <hamitron> nothing wrong with the odd gaming session
[23:06] <hamitron> :)
[23:12] <ali1234> could OSK be implemented as a unity lense?
[23:12] <gord> no
[23:12] <ali1234> maybe not technically a lense, but a button on the launcher that you press it and the kb slides out
[23:15] <gord> you could, but you might as well just write an application that does that, then have a launcher to launch it
[23:18] <ali1234> it needs to be able to be hidden easily too
[23:18] <ali1234> you can't hide an app by clicking on the launcher
[23:19] <ali1234> you can put a big minimize button on the app but that wastes space you could use for something useful like bigger keys
[23:19] <ali1234> in the end it's pointless though since unity is unusable on a touch screen anyway
[23:20] <ali1234> so i dunno why i'm even considering it
[23:21] <AlanBell> I think that is a 12.10 suggestion
[23:22] <ali1234> "make unity work on tablets"?
[23:23] <AlanBell> implement a keyboard as part of unity
[23:23] <ali1234> the tablet fad will be over by then and it will be something else
[23:24] <AlanBell> I don't quite understand why it is broken on tablets when they got so excited by multi-touch for a few weeks
[23:24] <ali1234> because whoever is designing it has no clear plan or direction
[23:24] <gord> multi-touch comes through synaptics not touch-screens
[23:25] <gord> ie: apple touch pads and such
[23:25] <AlanBell> and the Dell XT2
[23:25] <AlanBell> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/455
[23:26] <gord> stuff like that yeah, at the moment, unity really isn't designed for devices that only have a touch screen
[23:27] <gord> it would be great to have it work nicely on such things though, but there are only so many hours in the day and right now we are focused on more important stuff like making 11.10 as nice as we can
[23:27] <AlanBell> but only because it auto-hides the launcher and won't let you get it back
[23:27] <ali1234> and the menus
[23:27] <ali1234> don't forget those
[23:27] <AlanBell> them too
[23:27] <ali1234> and the window buttons
[23:27] <AlanBell> same as menus really
[23:28] <ali1234> if you maximize a window on a tablet you are stuffed
[23:28] <AlanBell> oh and scroll bars
[23:28] <AlanBell> but there are gestures for those
[23:28] <ali1234> can't close it, cant minimize it, can't access the launcher cause it's hidden
[23:28] <ali1234> oh yeah scroll bars too
[23:29] <ali1234> does anyone else ever try to resize a window using the right edge and get blocked by the scroll bar?
[23:29] <AlanBell> but apart from the launcher, scroll bars, menus, window buttons it is perfect!
[23:29] <ali1234> if you go a bit too far
[23:29] <AlanBell> and on screen keyboard
[23:29] <gord> like i said, not designed for a touch only device :)
[23:29] <AlanBell> :)
[23:29] <AlanBell> night all o/
[23:30] <ali1234> i'm having great difficulty understanding what it is designed for
[23:30] <ali1234> oneiric no longer works properly on my netbooks because the dash is now too big
[23:30] <gord> yeah but i could come to you with a delicious cake and you would complain that its not a spanner ;)
[23:30] <ball> Mmmmm... cake. :-9
[23:31] <ali1234> i don't really believe that unity was designed at all
[23:31] <ali1234> i think rather it's a collection of ideas that some bunch of people came up with
[23:31] <ali1234> and didn't consider how they would all work together
[23:32] <ali1234> some of the ideas are good
[23:32] <ali1234> some of them are just poorly implemented
[23:32] <ali1234> and some of them are just plain awful
[23:32] <gord> wow, i got to the minus world in super mario bros! i'v been trying to do that for years
[23:34] <ball> A few people have asked me "what's the deal with that Unity thing?" (they're American ;-)  I'm guessing it facilitates a move away from Gnome.  Is that just because Gnome's heading off in a direction that doesn't suit Canonical (or Ubuntu)?
[23:41] <gord> its not a move away from gnome really, we are still based on gnome, we use gnome applications, libraries, daemons. its just different shells for those applications to live in
[23:41] <gord> ubuntu has always done things differently from gnome
[23:42] <ball> gord: In that Ubuntu used a modified Gnome desktop?
[23:42] <gord> ball, yeah, with its own tech, like notify-osd and indicators
[23:43] <ball> I think I know what notify-osd is.  Not sure about indicators (except on a car ;-)
[23:43] <gord> the icons in the top right for your power and network and blutooth, all that stuff
[23:43] <gord> actually everything in the top right is an indicator
[23:44] <ball> Ah, I've seen those.
[23:45] <ball> Didn't know they had a name.
[23:46] <ball> ...or that they weren't part of Gnome
[23:46] <ball> (I've had limited Gnome experience)
[23:47] <ali1234> gnome has virtually identical icons just implemented in a different way
[23:47] <ball> Does Unity handle those in a way that's compatible with Ubuntu?
[23:48] <ali1234> whut?
[23:48] <ball> (with X clients that were written with Ubuntu in mind... with the way that Ubuntu did those things with Gnome)
[23:48] <ball> (indicators)
[23:48] <ali1234> no, it doesn't
[23:48] <ali1234> old style gnome panel applets aren't even supported on gnome3
[23:49] <ali1234> and systray stuff is specifically blacklisted
[23:49] <ali1234> actually there's a whitelist for allowed applications
[23:49] <Azelphur> Anyone happen to know of a SATA/IDE dock with USB3 support?
[23:49] <Azelphur> been trying to find one :(
[23:49] <ali1234> so unity can do it, but the functionality has been disabled
[23:49] <ali1234> Azelphur: use esata
[23:49] <gord> i know a nice case that has four loading bays for sata drives Azelphur :)
[23:49] <ball> USB 3.0 had been handy at work.
[23:50] <Azelphur> gord: :P
[23:50] <ball> Jobs that used to take twelve hours are now down to five hours.
[23:50] <Azelphur> ali1234: I don't even know if the eSATA is wired up on my PC, haha
[23:50] <Azelphur> but eSATA isn't available everywhere
[23:50] <Azelphur> where as USB is
[23:51] <gord> usb 3 isn't ;)
[23:51] <gord> is usb3 downgradable? i'v no idea
[23:51] <Azelphur> it is
[23:52] <Azelphur> so it'll plug into a USB2 port
[23:52] <gord> funky, though running sata drives off usb2 can't be pretty
[23:53] <Azelphur> *shrug* I just want to be able to copy large amounts of data without disassembling things
[23:53] <Azelphur> I don't mind waiting either :P
[23:53] <ball> gord: It's backwards compatible, which is somewhat useful.
[23:54]  * ball shudders at the thought of disks on a USB 1.1 port.
[23:54] <Azelphur> think I'll just have to get one that only does sata and screw ide :p
[23:54] <gord> could you not just set up a nas? or does it need to be super portable or something
[23:54] <Azelphur> ide is ancient anyway \o/
[23:54] <Azelphur> gord: I want a one stop shop for PC repair / general usefulness
[23:54] <Azelphur> so yea, portable
[23:54] <ball> Azelphur: `I wouldn't expect to find USB 3.0 on a PATA adaptor.
[23:55] <gord> ah, i have ubuntu on a usb stick for that
[23:55] <Azelphur> gord: I have that too, but that unfortunately doesn't make hard drives magically connect to computers :P
[23:56] <ball> Oh well, time to go and try to attach my wife's numberplate to her van.
[23:57] <gord> why is amazon recommending "ping pong balls for cats" to me... they can't even hold the bats
[23:57]  * ball coughs up a furball from laughing
[23:58]  * ball fur