[00:00] <ali1234> i wish these looooong builds had a progress bar or something
[00:00] <ali1234> like cmake :)
[00:03] <penguin42> ali1234: Problem is it's very programmatic - there's no way in std make of knowing how many more things you have to build
[00:04] <ali1234> it seems to be going fairly fast at least
[00:15] <penguin42> ali1234: Is it keeping multiple cores busy?
[00:16] <ali1234> sort of... there's around 10 cc processes but each one only seems to get about 20%
[00:16] <ali1234> maybe they are starting and stopping too fast for top to be accurate
[00:17] <penguin42> yeh
[00:37] <emre_ozdn> hi
[00:38] <emre_ozdn> help me !
[00:38] <daftykins> D:
[00:38] <daftykins> emre_ozdn: you need to ask a question usually
[00:39] <emre_ozdn> dpkg: error: `/var/lib/dpkg/status' An error occurred while trying to read the package information file: No such file or directory
[00:41] <penguin42> does that file exist?
[00:47] <emre_ozdn> that file is removed
[01:02] <ali1234> it seems to be compiling languages or codepages or something... i think it's nearly done...
[01:09] <ali1234> now it seems to have started over... doh
[01:15] <popey> ali1234: what exactly are you building?
[01:15] <ali1234> eglibc 2.15 from precise
[01:19] <ali1234> -mfloat-abi=softfp
[01:19] <ali1234> hmmmm
[01:19] <ali1234> i think it is now building an armel version
[01:23] <popey> Package: libc6-armel
[01:23] <popey> Architecture: armhf
[01:24] <popey> Description: Embedded GNU C Library: ARM softfp shared libraries for armhf
[01:25] <penguin42> ali1234: The debian/control file will list all the debs it should produce
[01:25] <ali1234> yeah... i don't think i'm building that
[01:25] <ali1234> let's see
[01:26] <popey> ali1234: what you building in? wheezy?
[01:26] <ali1234> raspbian, so yeah i guess
[01:27] <ali1234> it's building: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6373851/
[01:27] <ali1234> i guess
[01:27] <penguin42> hmm no not all those archs
[01:28] <ali1234> no, i suppose not
[01:31] <popey> ali1234: what did you do for missing g++-4.6-multilib ?
[01:31] <ali1234> nothing and debuild with -d
[01:32] <ali1234> i installed as many deps as possible manually
[01:32] <popey> ah
[01:32] <ali1234> if we're going to benchmark we should use a package that isn't crazy
[01:33] <ali1234> or else just pick something from raspbian that should work easily
[01:34] <popey> yeah
[01:34] <ali1234> getting this to work is going to be fun
[01:34] <ali1234> build-tree/armhf-armel/wctype/stamp.oT - armhf *and* armel?
[01:35] <popey> how about something like zlib or emacs?
[01:35] <ali1234> zlib takes about 8 seconds to compile
[01:36] <popey> yeah, need something chunky
[01:36] <popey> gcc ☻
[01:36] <ali1234> potentialy crazy due it building itself to build itself...
[01:36] <ali1234> dunno if it actually does that
[01:36] <popey> nah
[01:37] <ali1234> libSDL might be a good candidate
[01:37] <popey> yeah, probably better than libc
[01:37] <ali1234> it should be relatively tested on pi, takes a while to build, and isn't crazy... and it uses cmake in recent versions (maybe not packaged though)
[01:37]  * penguin42 suggests coreutils
[01:38] <popey> that wont take long
[01:38] <popey> 11MB of source
[01:38] <popey> long enough on pi ☻
[01:39] <popey> yeah, thats probably better, wont have lots of deps
[01:40] <popey> only needed 10 above what I already had here
[01:41] <penguin42> anyway, bed
[01:42] <ali1234> coreutils from raspbian on raspbian then?
[01:42] <popey> yes
[01:42] <popey> coreutils-8.13
[01:45] <popey> haha, ran out of space on my pi
[01:45] <ali1234> oops
[01:45] <popey> didn't resize the partition up from 2.5GB to 32GB
[01:46]  * popey rm's two copies of eglibc
[01:46] <ali1234> i bind-mounted a directory from outside the chroot for compiling
[02:02]  * popey leaves it running
[02:07] <ali1234> i don't think i'll see much benefit from multicore... it seems to be spending most time on configure
[03:01] <ali1234> hmm... qemu froze. known bug apparently. using the linaro-qemu is supposed to fix it
[03:02] <popey> rpi chugging along slowly
[03:02] <popey> doing tests
[03:18] <popey> real	4m43.231s
[03:18] <popey> (i7 building saucy coreutils natively)
[03:19] <ali1234> well i got past where it froze before
[03:19] <ali1234> running configure takes like 15 minutes
[03:19] <ali1234> probably because all the process start/stop. it compiles a million tiny programs and then runs them
[03:20] <popey> the tests take quite a while too
[03:21] <popey> pi has nearly finished
[03:21] <ali1234> omg it's running another configure script
[03:21] <ali1234> checking all the same stuff again
[03:23] <ali1234> it can't be optimal to check that the system supports pipes every single time you build this
[03:24] <popey> has to build on a buildd dunnit
[03:24] <popey> where it's a clean room
[03:24] <ali1234> so what?
[03:24] <ali1234> when was the last time a linux system didn't support pipes?
[03:24] <ali1234> if OS==linux then skip_99%_of_the_checks
[03:24] <popey> heh
[03:24] <popey> Does Hurd support pipes? ☻
[03:25] <ali1234> i dunno but i'm guessing it either does or it doesn't and that isn't going to change
[03:26] <ali1234> there should be a thing like ccache, but for configure
[03:26] <ali1234> i know there's configure.cache, but why not make it system-wide?
[03:27] <ali1234> i suppose you could make the argument that some earlier package build broke pipes or something
[03:28] <popey> i didnt realise quite how much coreutils had in it
[03:29] <ali1234> pretty much everything that isn't built in to bash
[03:29] <ali1234> actually it probably includes bash
[03:30] <popey> FUUUU!
[03:30] <popey> finished
[03:30] <popey> but for some reason I have a screen full of y
[03:31] <popey> not the time it finished at
[03:31] <popey> I may have typed "yes" in the wrong terminal ☻
[03:31] <ali1234> still chewing through configure here
[03:32] <popey> so finished at ~03:30
[03:33] <popey> so ~1.5 hours
[03:33]  * popey runs again after cleaning
[03:33] <popey> bed
[03:36] <ali1234> ....and it hung on msgmerge again
[03:36] <ali1234> screw this, forget qemu, it sucks
[06:57] <MooDoo> morning all
[06:58] <shauno> o/
[07:04] <MooDoo> shauno: thought I was the only mad one up this time of the morning
[07:05] <shauno> I've been in the office since 6 :(
[07:07] <MooDoo> 6:30 for me, you finish early?
[07:11] <shauno> yeah, that's the upswing .. going home at 2pm feels like cheating :)
[07:12] <mungbean> why were those guys up at 3am? crazies
[07:12] <MooDoo> yeah I leave at 3:30, unless I take lunch then I can go at 3
[07:12] <MooDoo> mungbean: which guys?
[07:12] <mungbean> al1 and p0p93y
[07:13] <mungbean> dont wanna hlight them cos they are sleeping now i hope
[07:14]  * mungbean is feeding babby and changing nappies
[07:16] <MooDoo> saw them on the podcast show last night, didn't know they were up at 3 lol
[07:16] <MooDoo> mungbean: luckily my two were still in bed when I left for work...
[07:17] <mungbean> i gave wifey a lie in \o/
[07:17] <mungbean> "lie in" until 7.40
[07:28] <mungbean> twitter is valued at £11bn LOL
[07:28] <mungbean> £50 per "user account"
[07:35] <ali1234> i'm still up
[07:35] <ali1234> thinking about breakfast
[07:36] <MooDoo> ali1234: what you been doing that's kept you up all night?  still with the compiling on the pi?
[07:38] <ali1234> no, i've given up on that
[07:38] <ali1234> i've been looking at xterm actually
[07:38] <MooDoo> wow don't you ever sleep ;)
[07:38] <ali1234> did you know if you run xterm -t and then type, it segfaults?
[07:38] <ali1234> and it's probably been this way for years
[07:39] <MooDoo> I did not know that.
[07:55] <diplo> Morning allMorning all
[07:55] <diplo> oops
[07:56] <MooDoo> morning diplo morning diplo ;)
[07:56] <diplo> heh
[07:56] <diplo> Shows how much typing I did on here yesterday, I up arrowed once by mistake :)
[07:59] <MooDoo> lol
[07:59] <shauno> xterm -t seems to work here, but I'm not entirely sure what it's trying to do
[08:04] <shauno> it just brings the uglies; http://cl.ly/image/3p3C2E0s2o2N
[08:05] <MartijnVdS> tektronix.. eek
[08:07] <shauno> I realise OSX doesn't actually help you at all, but at least it means XTerm(281) probably isn't fundamentally b0rken
[08:10] <ali1234> well, ubuntu has 278
[08:10] <ali1234> so maybe they fixed it
[08:17] <shauno> not sure I expected OSX to have a newer version.  that seems backwards
[08:51] <AlanBell> might be a termcap bug
[08:52] <MartijnVdS> termcap bugs shouldn't crash the program
[08:54] <AlanBell> true
[08:59] <mungbean> xterm -t works for me
[09:00] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: even if you start typing in it?
[09:00] <mungbean> yesh
[09:00] <MartijnVdS> are you a wizard?
[09:00] <MartijnVdS> (which Ubuntu version)
[09:00] <mungbean> yes, i have the certificate to prove it
[09:00] <mungbean> by the reddit definition
[09:01] <mungbean> i'm on elementary which is 12.04.3 ubuntu
[09:03] <mungbean> i'll try on a vm
[09:05] <mungbean> works on 12.04.3 VM
[09:12] <mungbean> segfaults on 13.10
[09:12] <mungbean> ali1234: ^^
[09:19] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:19] <MartijnVdS> \o bigcalm
[09:20] <MooDoo> mornign mornign
[09:33] <SuperMatt> all right fellows, I am happy now to share http://www.ubuntu-helpouts.org
[09:34] <SuperMatt> I did my first new helpouts last night, and it was great fun
[09:35] <MartijnVdS> SuperMatt: were people helped?
[09:35] <MooDoo> And i'm just waiting for my helpout invite....silly slow google.
[09:35] <SuperMatt> yes they were!
[09:35] <ali1234> can i sign up and ask really difficult questions?
[09:35] <SuperMatt> if you like
[09:35] <MooDoo> ali1234: it's mainly for beginners....you're totally over qualified ;)
[09:36] <SuperMatt> I might not be able to answer them ;)
[09:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> You have to love the Internet :-D
[09:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> PTFE (Teflon) "... is the only known surface to which a *gecko* cannot stick."
[09:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene
[09:36] <ali1234> your channel should be ## probably, assuming you're not official
[09:37] <SuperMatt> no, we're not official
[09:37] <MooDoo> ali1234: yeah we reaslised that after it was created :(
[09:37] <MooDoo> my fault....
[09:37] <SuperMatt> we can move to ##
[09:37] <shauno> TheOpenSourcerer: dare we ask what you were googling to arrive at that?
[09:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> shauno: A mate posted it on FB
[09:38] <ali1234> http://prospect.rsc.org/blogs/cw/2013/04/02/how-geckos-can-beat-non-stick/
[09:39] <ali1234> i googled "what surfaces can't a gecko stick to?" and that was the top result
[09:39] <ali1234> appears to contradict wikipedia
[09:39] <TheOpenSourcerer> Like I said - You really have to love the Internet sometimes...
[09:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> I also discovered yesterday that there is a website dedicated to images of single women laughing with a plate or bowl of salad.
[09:40] <bigcalm> Rule #34
[09:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://womenlaughingalonewithsalad.tumblr.com/
[09:41] <shauno> I kinda want a gecko now.  I assume you can buy harnesses for them on etsy
[09:41] <SuperMatt> ali1234: we've changed channel
[09:42] <popey> SuperMatt: you're in danger of flouting the trademark policy
[09:43] <SuperMatt> popey: in what way? I'm happy to change things to ensure I don't
[09:43] <popey> just re-reading it to check ☻
[09:43] <SuperMatt> cool thanks
[09:43] <SuperMatt> I wanna work with Canonical on this
[09:45] <popey> why do you recommend virtualbox?
[09:45] <SuperMatt> just to get started
[09:45] <ali1234> i kinda want to go on random helpouts and say "hello, i'd like an argument please"
[09:45] <SuperMatt> without destroying anything ;)
[09:46] <MartijnVdS> popey: vbox work with just one apt-get install, virtd + kvm is a lot harder to get running quickly
[09:46] <popey> 5 mins or the full half hour?
[09:46] <MooDoo> ali1234: come to mine, i'll reply with,  is this a 4 min one of fll half hout
[09:46] <MooDoo> oh damn you popey
[09:46] <popey> SuperMatt: who is the site aimed at
[09:46] <MooDoo> beginners and people interesting moving to or learning ubuntu
[09:46] <SuperMatt> absolute beginners, mostly
[09:47] <popey> beginners who have already got ubuntu or people who have not
[09:47] <SuperMatt> well, I'm happy to help with either
[09:47] <SuperMatt> if they've already installed it, they can skip the virtualbox step
[09:47] <MooDoo> and i'll deal with people wanting to move to it, or give it a go.
[09:47] <SuperMatt> I should make not of that
[09:47] <popey> it just seems confusing for the getting started page to mention virtualbox
[09:47] <MooDoo> or just see what it's like.
[09:48] <SuperMatt> sure
[09:48] <SuperMatt> well content like that will change.
[09:48] <SuperMatt> I needed some resourse for the folks at google to accept me
[09:48] <popey> oh?
[09:49] <SuperMatt> if it turns out to be something people don't connect with, I'll change it
[09:49] <SuperMatt> yup, they strongly suggest you have a well populated website so that people can get a feel of how qualified you are
[09:49] <mungbean> in which case "received"  has been mis-spelt :P
[09:50] <SuperMatt> where have I done that?
[09:50] <popey> its certainly an interesting area for supporting new users
[09:50] <MooDoo> which is why I'm getting involved, to help with newbies lol
[09:50] <SuperMatt> indeed, last night I was helping someone with grub, someone get an n64 emulator working, and someone running apache
[09:50] <mungbean> Day 1 ctrl-f reciev
[09:51] <MooDoo> I started recieving requests for help.
[09:51] <MartijnVdS> resieve?
[09:51]  * mungbean slaps MartijnVdS
[09:51] <SuperMatt> do
[09:51] <SuperMatt> *doh
[09:51]  * MooDoo should of spotted that as well lol
[09:51] <SuperMatt> I walways do that ;)
[09:51] <SuperMatt> I don't walways do that typo though
[09:51] <mungbean> i have a radar for typos
[09:52] <SuperMatt> you must be an English teacher
[09:52] <mungbean> my Red Had Certified Systems Administrator exam,
[09:52] <popey> "You will require Canonical’s permission to use: (i) any mark ending with the letters UBUNTU or BUNTU which is sufficiently similar to the Trademarks or any other confusingly similar mark, and (ii) any Trademark in a domain name or URL or for merchandising purposes."
[09:52] <mungbean> http://www.ubuntu-helpouts.org/matthew-ames/
[09:52] <mungbean> typo on there
[09:52] <popey> that one is probably the thing you'd need to consider
[09:52] <popey> http://www.canonical.com/intellectual-property-policy
[09:53] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: i'll email canonical about this.
[09:54] <bigcalm> mungbean: what's Red Had? ;)
[09:54] <mungbean> SuperMatt's typo
[09:54] <bigcalm> Ah
[09:54] <bigcalm> Maybe I should pay attention
[09:54] <bigcalm> Then again...
[09:54] <mungbean> sit up there at the back of class!
[09:54] <mungbean> stop slouching!
[09:54] <mungbean> i'm writing more documentation today
[09:55] <mungbean> shutter is a nice tool for screenshots
[09:55] <bigcalm> I want more sleep
[09:55] <mungbean> also includes upload to imgur directly in
[09:55] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: better than alt+printscreen?
[09:55] <mungbean> yes
[09:55] <popey> yes
[09:55] <mungbean> well alt-printscreen saves the screenshot and opens shutter window
[09:55] <MooDoo> SuperMatt: Canonical contactd
[09:56] <mungbean> not as good as psr on windows, which is the best app not available for linux
[09:56] <mungbean> nice pic MooDoo
[09:56] <mungbean> on your about page
[09:57] <MooDoo> Thanks :)
[09:57] <mungbean> looking good
[09:57] <MooDoo> does ubuntu -uk still have a mugshot gallery?
[09:57] <mungbean> does ubuntu-uk still exist after the ubuntu uk'ers all got jobs for canonical :P
[09:57] <mungbean> i think the planet page stopped
[09:58] <MooDoo> well I was thinking about asking the best way to get the planet reactivated...maybe look after it myself?
[09:58] <MooDoo> it's still listed on the ubuntu-uk.org page
[09:58] <mungbean> was it closed for lack of resources or some other reason
[09:59] <MooDoo> wow so old -
[09:59] <mungbean> if its non members then it could be anyone writing anything, but not bound by CoC
[09:59] <MooDoo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/Gallery/Members
[09:59] <mungbean> so broken
[09:59] <MooDoo> yup, might be time for a tidy up.
[10:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: AlanBell https://plus.google.com/u/0/+WebUpd8/posts/UfCgv3DByck lol
[10:00] <popey> yeah, we shutdown the planet
[10:00] <MooDoo> popey: how come?  too much time to maintain?
[10:01] <popey> haha TheOpenSourcerer
[10:01] <MartijnVdS> popey: that sounds bad out of context
[10:01] <mungbean> lol
[10:01] <popey> we discussed it at a meeting some time back
[10:01] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/LastMeeting
[10:02] <popey> we also turned off ircstats, and brobostigon stepped up to make a new one, which works.
[10:02] <popey> http://taylorworld.me.uk/ubuntu-uk.html
[10:02] <JamesTait> Good morning all; and though I hesitate to say it, happy Men Make Dinner Day! :-D
[10:03] <popey> I *always* make dinner!
[10:03] <popey> If my wife boils water she burns it.
[10:03] <JamesTait> I don't *always* make dinner, but it's not rare.  That's why I hesitate to say it.  The can is open, there are worms everywhere.
[10:04]  * MartijnVdS always makes dinner as well
[10:04] <popey> hah
[10:04] <MartijnVdS> Living alone does that to you
[10:06] <shauno> I suspect G+ killed the planet
[10:06] <MartijnVdS> G+ is good though
[10:06] <JamesTait> MartijnVdS, this is the thing, you see.  There are *loads* of situations where men *always* make dinner, some of them rather sensitive.
[10:07] <mungbean> maybe g+ needs a community page for ubuntu UK
[10:07] <MartijnVdS> is there a "shared circle" of Ubuntu people?
[10:07] <MartijnVdS> because you can share circles..
[10:07] <mungbean>  elementary has a community page, and i see posts to that community but i don't follow them
[10:09] <brobostigon> glad to hear its working fine, :)
[10:09] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[10:09] <mungbean> wold be good to have the same for the ubuntu community, maybe it already exists
[10:10] <brobostigon> all irc channels as a whole?
[10:11] <JamesTait> Oh my! "The loudest one was JamesTait, who yelled 33.4% of the time!"
  So it's all good, right?
[10:13] <JamesTait> This IRCstats thing is going to ruin my reputation as a grumpy old man. :(
[10:13] <MartijnVdS> JamesTait: ♫ Shouty happy people :)
[10:13] <MooDoo> Poor MooDoo, nobody likes him/her. He/She was attacked 7 times. :) lol
[10:13]  * popey creates one
[10:13] <brobostigon> the play store update system seems dead, two devices, seperate networks, both get download failiure.
[10:14] <MooDoo> woohoo I'm in the top 20 stats for most active nicks.
[10:15] <mungbean> not sure if thats a badge of pride or shame
[10:16] <mungbean> both mungbean and my old alter ego are there
[10:16] <mungbean> i think the stats should reflect maybe the last year rather than all time
[10:16] <MooDoo> yeah think it just means i'm gobby
[10:16] <mungbean> because somebody who was prolific in the past e.g. gordallot doesn't come anymore
[10:16] <mungbean> so thi stends to skew results
[10:17] <MooDoo> wow oimon 309 days ago
[10:17] <MooDoo> actually quite a few i've not seen in awhile....
[10:19] <mungbean> ali1234 spoke a total of 312992 words!
[10:19] <mungbean> ali1234's faithful follower, popey, didn't speak so much: 231448 words.
[10:19] <mungbean> lol
[10:20] <MooDoo> yeah the stats can be fub
[10:20] <MooDoo> fun
[10:22] <JamesTait> But they're obviously wrong.  They say I spoke more than aquarius, which can't be true! :-P
[10:23] <mungbean> \o/
[10:25]  * aquarius laughs
[10:25] <MooDoo> O M G he spoke ;)
[10:25] <MooDoo> well laughed
[10:25] <aquarius> I'm on irc less these days than once I was
[10:27] <andrewebdev> :)
[10:27] <andrewebdev> joining right now
[10:29] <mungbean> this is amazing http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/ef0b/
[10:35] <Myrtti> I think I might actually be the most faithful customer of Nabee Socks
[10:42] <brobostigon> is anyone else experiencing google play downloads failing, independant of network connection and device.?
[10:43] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: let me check
[10:43] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: thank you.
[10:44] <MartijnVdS> works fine on N5
[10:44] <brobostigon> hmmm,
[10:45] <mungbean> should i disable hyperthreading on an esxi server?
[10:46] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: all other stuff like facebook and g+ and k9 is working, so it is definatly isolated to that.
[10:47] <dwatkins> mungbean: I suspect it depends what kind of work the servers themselves are doing; if it's not stuff that involves a lot of context switching (e.g. webserver, small jobs etc.) then leave it on, but if it's tasks which require lots of swapping in and out of memory, best to turn it off, I'd say.
[10:47] <mungbean> "If the hardware and BIOS support hyper-threading, ESXi automatically makes use of it. For the best
[10:48] <mungbean> performance we recommend that you enable hyper-threading"
[10:48] <mungbean> ^^ vmware
[10:48] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: do you have a connection to the google services (do hangouts work, for instance)
[10:48] <shauno> and if you're binding VMs to cores, only bind them to even-numbered cores
[10:48] <mungbean> http://www.vmware.com/pdf/Perf_Best_Practices_vSphere5.0.pdf
[10:48] <popey> Myrtti: i need more nabee socks
[10:48] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: how do i try a hangout ?
[10:48] <Myrtti> popey: my count is ten pairs now... *blush*
[10:48] <popey> blimey
[10:48] <popey> i have one
[10:49]  * mungbean wears M&S fresh feet
[10:49] <shauno> eg, if you bind VMs to cores 0 and 1, they're bound to the same phyiscal core, which misses the point
[10:49] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: you go into the hangouts app and message someone (yourself?)
[10:49] <mungbean> "Be careful when using CPU affinity on systems with hyper-threading. Because the two logical processors
[10:49] <mungbean> share most of the processor resources, pinning vCPUs, whether from different virtual machines or from
[10:49] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: message myself? ok.
[10:49] <mungbean> a single SMP virtual machine, to both logical processors on one core (CPUs 0 and 1, for example) could
[10:49] <mungbean> cause poor performance."
[10:50] <Myrtti> popey: four from kickstarter, two freebies for the review/quality control photos, and now four with discount codes and sales
[10:50] <shauno> that's the one.  even-numbered cores are physical cores, odd-numbered cores are the second 'logical' core on each
[10:51] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: can i test it on you please?
[10:51] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: sure
[10:51] <mungbean> Myrtti: are they flight socks?
[10:52] <Myrtti> I wonder if their willingness to send me a Paypal invoice and ship them to UK/Finland even when the online shop their website uses is in any way attributed by the amount of socks I've got from them :-D
[10:52] <Myrtti> mungbean: yup
[10:52] <mungbean> my missis gets varicose veins and poor circulation, will it help her in the daytime too?
[10:53] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: sent.
[10:53] <popey> out of stock ☹
[10:53] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: you can also check the connected-to-google status through typing *#*#8255#*#* into the dialer
[10:53] <MartijnVdS> popey: out of sock!
[10:53] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: ah, let me try.
[10:54] <Myrtti> mungbean: they've helped me with my paranoia, also my feet do feel better on the days I wear them
[10:54] <mungbean> International shipping is not available at this time. Worldwide shipping will be coming soon.
[10:55] <mungbean> paranoia about people looking at your legs? talking about you behind your back?
[10:55] <popey> they are dead comfy
[10:55] <mungbean> paranoia about DVT
[10:55]  * popey is wearing his ☻
[10:55] <Myrtti> mungbean: no, I've got a hereditary thing that increases my risk of DVT
[10:55] <mungbean> ah, then 10 pairs is aceptable
[10:56] <mungbean> popey is just wearing his for the lulz
[10:56] <mungbean> and the feelz
[10:56] <ali1234> bitcoin alpaca socks cured my exploding head syndrome
[10:56] <popey> mostly for the feelz
[10:56] <popey> hah, you really should go to bed ☻
[10:56] <Myrtti> yeah a note from the local university hematology headhoncho says I should take Heparin/whatever shots if I fly long distance etc.
[10:57] <mungbean> i have a ibm emulex iscsi adapter and i'm getting the impresion that hardware iscsi only supported with an IBM network switch... EVIL!
[10:57] <MooDoo> I've got a blood disorder that means I have to wear socks and take warfrin on long journeys Myrtti
[10:57] <Myrtti> MooDoo: Leiden?
[10:57] <MartijnVdS> wait.. Leiden?
[10:57] <mungbean> i would buy these socks for wifey if they shipped them :S
[10:57] <MooDoo> Myrtti: yup
[10:58] <MooDoo> Myrtti: factor 5
[10:58] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: ok, that seems to show a connection uptime currently of just over 26mins, so it seems i do have a connection.
[10:58] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: weird!
[10:58] <Myrtti> MooDoo: likewise
[10:58] <Myrtti> MooDoo: I got it from both my parents
[10:58] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: i agree.
[10:58] <MooDoo> Myrtti: yup me too :D
[10:58] <popey> i bought two pares for @therealpopey
[10:58] <MooDoo> Myrtti: carry a nice little green medical card with me ;)
[10:59] <Myrtti> ooh nice
[10:59] <mungbean> popey: how, in the kickstarter?
[10:59] <MooDoo> Myrtti: and being 6'6 I usually get upgraded to bigger seats on planes lol :p
[11:00] <Myrtti> no, I just got a letter from the university hospital, took it to my local surgery and asked for prescription for the shots - she laughed at my face and said this is hogwash, never heard of such a thing
[11:00] <Myrtti> "you don't need this"
[11:00] <MooDoo> Myrtti: oh dear
[11:00] <Myrtti> "whatevs, just give me the prescription"
[11:00] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:00] <MartijnVdS> Myrtti: my dad has a rare "protein C deficiency", and has to take anticoagulants daily
[11:00] <MooDoo> davmor2: morning
[11:02] <mungbean> i get the impression doctors would find something about me if they looked
[11:02] <mungbean> but they've never loked
[11:03] <Myrtti> mungbean: I've done business directly with<EMAIL_ADDRESS>- Brian sent me a Paypal invoice and seemed happy to send them to Finland/UK
[11:03] <mungbean> how was the shipping charges?
[11:03] <mungbean> *were
[11:03] <davmor2> MooDoo: me owld mucka.  You recovered after the Fedora birthday bash? :D
[11:04] <Myrtti> there was none for me, but I don't know how much that is influenced with the amount of socks I've ordered from them / participating in the kickstarter / sending them a product review
[11:04] <davmor2> MooDoo: mind you it's still only allowed ribina I guess needs to be 18 to start drinking properly :)
[11:06] <mungbean> mmm ribena
[11:06] <Myrtti> mungbean: if you think it might help, you can try if mentioning that you heard of them from two Kickstarter pledgers - and you can mention at least me by name if you want
[11:06] <Myrtti> :-P
[11:07] <popey> mungbean: ya
[11:07] <mungbean> :D
[11:08] <MooDoo> davmor2: lol don't celebrate that, was working on this with SuperMatt ubuntu-helpouts.org
[11:13] <davmor2> MooDoo: yeah I just stumbled across that in the G+ or Facebook
[11:15] <MooDoo> davmor2: :D
[11:22] <Myrtti> MartijnVdS: not defined any better? sounds odd but quite possibly Factor V Leiden then
[11:22] <MartijnVdS> Myrtti: it's not that one, but similar
[11:22] <Myrtti> right
[11:25] <Myrtti> oh man I need to stop reading Wikipedia, it makes me cry
[11:27] <MartijnVdS> Myrtti: switch to tvtropes
[11:45] <shauno> bah.  hate when I keep putting off a phonecall, and then I get voicemail.  now I have to start putting it off all over again
[11:45] <SuperMatt> I know that feeling
[11:46] <SuperMatt> chances are you're calling the bank, doctor or dentist
[11:46] <Laney> ooh, dentist
[11:46]  * Laney needs to make an appointment, good reminder
[11:46] <popey> ooh, haircut
[11:46] <shauno> nah, customer :/
[11:46] <SuperMatt> oh poops
[11:46]  * popey needs to make an appointment, good reminder
[11:46] <daftykins> i'm putting off calling back some roofing people as they were meant to come over at 11am but i'm not sure which day...
[11:46] <Laney> I've needed a haircut for about 9 years
[11:46] <SuperMatt> I should get a haircut too
[11:46] <SuperMatt> I can't do anything with mine
[11:46] <daftykins> Laney: :D
[11:47] <shauno> I don't want a haircut, but I keep trimming bits that annoy me and .. well I'm sure if I could see the results, I'd want a haircut
[11:47] <popey> booked \o/
[11:47] <popey> my brother is a hairdresser, runs his own salon
[11:48] <daftykins> :o
[11:48]  * MooDoo wishes he had hair lol
[11:48] <SuperMatt> hurr
[11:48] <popey> https://www.facebook.com/CabelloHairdressers
[11:48]  * daftykins hands MooDoo a stylish wig
[11:48] <SuperMatt> hmmm
[11:48] <SuperMatt> it's a bit far for me to get a hair cut
[11:49] <Myrtti> Laney: only four years for me
[11:49] <shauno> you'd just end up looking like an elvis impersonator anyway
[11:49] <popey> uh-huh-huh
[11:49] <davmor2> popey: you could get a Lionel Blair Cut like mine
[11:49] <popey> uh. no.
[11:49] <popey> sam needs a cut too
[11:49] <popey> his grows as fast as mine
[11:50] <Laney> DONE
[11:50] <SuperMatt> there's two of you with hair that grows that fast?
[11:50] <davmor2> popey: I hope you're not mocking my hair cut it takes a lot of time and energy to keep it looking this good :D
[11:50] <SuperMatt> I'm surprised the Mrs isn't tripping over hair all the time
[11:50] <SuperMatt> and tangled up in knots
[11:51] <Laney> Probably going to regret booking the appointment for 0830
[11:51] <shauno> "8:30 do?  sure!  *click*  d'oh!"
[11:51] <Myrtti> mine tangles a lot nowadays, and I have to keep it braided or contained otherwise when in the kitchen because it gets everywhere. Let me tell you, finding a hair in your food isn't as bad as finding food in your hair. Especially after putting dishes in the dishwasher.
[11:52] <Laney> I asked for one early in the morning
[11:52] <Laney> "oh crap, that's what early means"
[11:52] <daftykins> Myrtti: XD
[11:53] <SuperMatt> my housemate's hair is quite long and falls out all the time (she has lots of it, so it's ok). If we don't hoover every few days, we start getting tumbleweeds of her hair
[11:53]  * Myrtti looks at the floors
[11:54] <Myrtti> yeah, we've kinda agreed we might need help with that vacuuming bit
[11:54] <shauno> that's how my shower works too.  except I don't have mousemates to blame
[11:54] <Myrtti> *cough*
[11:54] <penguin42> hmm mousemates
[11:54] <shauno> no idea where that came from
[11:54] <SuperMatt> I used to have mousemates
[11:55] <SuperMatt> glue strips were the only way to be rid of them :'(
[11:55] <SuperMatt> fortunately, they make a lot of noise so you can kill them quickly before they die in agony
[11:56] <shauno> I had a rodent infestation in the states.  it seems to work differently there.  it started off as a chipmunk infestation, then a cat infestation (but no chipmunks).  and then a coyote infestation (but no cats)
[11:56] <SuperMatt> that's... insane
[11:56] <penguin42> shauno: I'd worry about the brown bears that go after the coyotes
[11:57] <shauno> very much so.  I actually liked the chipmunks :/
[11:57] <penguin42> are the chipmunks the ones with the cute stripe?
[11:57] <daftykins> SuperMatt: mine is like that =/ i have white stairs up to my bedroom, they tend to just be coated with my lost hair >_<
[11:57] <shauno> I only ever saw one bear.  not something I'd want to repeat
[11:57] <SuperMatt> I seem to have defied the hair trend in my family
[11:58] <SuperMatt> it started thinning back in uni, 10 years ago, but since then it has stopped
[12:07] <diddledan> penguin42: I think the ones with the stripe are called skunks :-p
[12:08] <diddledan> shauno: lots of beers tho, I'm guessing?
[12:08] <penguin42> diddledan: No! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipmunk
[12:09] <diddledan> nawww, cute!
[12:09] <diddledan> they're squirrels, really
[12:09] <penguin42> diddledan: Yeh, I mean you'd feel a lot more guilty about killing one of those than one of our mice or rats
[12:09] <AlanBell> unless they started singing, then all the guilt would drain away
[12:10] <shauno> I was just looking to see if I still had pics.  we 'dispatched' quite a few of them
[12:11] <diddledan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZRAARqgJeU
[12:13] <diddledan> did you all just commit murdercide?
[12:13] <diddledan> c'mon you loved it really!
[12:14] <penguin42> shauno: Sheesh and you've not made the hat to prove it
[12:14] <popey> can someone on saucy see if they can reproduce https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mumble/+bug/1248931
[12:15]  * awilkins had to deal with squirrels in his loft. Terminally.
[12:15] <awilkins> I only mention it because of the above discussion of rodents. And the fact that I heard something scurrying around up there earlier.
[12:15] <mgdm> with extreme prejudice?
[12:15] <shauno> problem is they're cute when they're outside.  not when they're inside.  and not when they're inside a wood-framed house
[12:16] <awilkins> Cage-trapped them. Of course, the law says that since they are vermin, catch and release is verboten.
[12:16] <awilkins> Tried to do away with them as humanely as possible.
[12:16] <diddledan> awilkins: I thought only greys were considered vermin
[12:16] <penguin42> shauno: Oh, eating the house?
[12:16] <awilkins> They were greys
[12:16] <diddledan> tis okie then
[12:17] <awilkins> They completely buggered my loft inuslation by making nests of it
[12:17] <shauno> penguin42: yeah.  american style farmhouse, ~120 years old.  almost completely edible
[12:17] <awilkins> Can't have been very comfortable
[12:17] <awilkins> Rock wool is really itchy
[12:17] <diddledan> awilkins: humanely.. you should have done it the german way and sent them to a mass internment camp.</racism>
[12:17] <penguin42> awilkins: Maybe not a problem when you have fur?
[12:17] <awilkins> Squirrel pasty : http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05/SquirrelPastieSWNS_450x450.jpg
[12:18] <awilkins> http://metro.co.uk/2008/05/11/shoppers-go-nuts-for-squirrel-pasty-138838/
[12:18] <awilkins> I'm so pleased that's still the no.1 hit for "squirrel pasty" on Google.
[12:18] <daftykins> :'(
[12:19] <awilkins> If I'm ever in the vicinity of his shop I'll reserve a couple
[12:19] <shauno> I wonder if he'll take a part trade-in for some of your loft squirrels?
[12:19] <daftykins> hahaha
[12:19] <MartijnVdS> ♫ Wanted, dead or alive
[12:20] <AlanBell> popey: not reproduced here
[12:20] <AlanBell> popey: then again . . .
[12:41] <ali1234> popey: have you always-on-top'd it?
[12:43] <shauno> windows admins are weird.  is it sending email or not?  tcpdump would have answered this already.  but I've got someone talking to themselves about exchange receive connectors?
[12:43] <diddledan> wtf are receive connectors?
[12:44] <MooDoo> they control the flow on inbound messages to your server
[12:44] <shauno> I'm hoping they're a windows thing, else this is going to be a *really* long call
[12:44] <MooDoo> yes they are exchange server related
[12:45] <MooDoo> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa996395(v=exchg.150).aspx
[12:45] <shauno> that sounds hopefully convincing, since he should be whitelisting an IP to send without auth
[12:50] <diddledan> why do I need to sign-into live.com to view that technet article?
[12:51] <MartijnVdS> because it's microsoft
[12:51] <jussi> ...
[12:52] <MooDoo> diddledan: do you have to sign in?  I'm not and I can read it? or is it the other parts you need to sign in for?
[12:53] <diddledan> MooDoo: it just redirected me to the live.com signin page
[12:53] <shauno> didn't here
[12:53] <MooDoo> diddledan: strange doesn't for me :(
[12:54] <diddledan> it says: "Because you're accessing sensitive info, you need to verify your password."
[12:54] <MartijnVdS> no password prompt here either
[12:57] <dwatkins> I get asked to enter my password on technet and MSDN sites.
[12:57] <shauno> I'm downloading a trial of exchange 2007 because it can't be this difficult :(
[12:57] <dwatkins> I must have done it fairly recently, as MooDoo's link didnt ask me for this, however.
[12:58] <shauno> dan broke technet?
[13:00] <mgdm> diddledan: try incognito mode - it might be detecting that you once signed in elsewhere
[13:00] <diddledan> shauno: I seem to break a lot of things
[13:00] <diddledan> shauno: I think they don't like the beard
[13:01] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: wiping dalvik cache solved the issue for some reason, amazingly enough.
[13:02] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: doesn't that imply rebooting?
[13:02] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: maybe the reboot fixed it?
[13:02] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: i had rebooted it before that point, and it didnt change the sysptom.
[13:03] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: ah, strange. Never had that.
[13:03] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: Are you running custom firmware or stock?
[13:03] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: me neither, first time for everything.
[13:04] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: MartijnVdS cm 10.2
[13:05] <diddledan> I need feeding
[13:05] <MooDoo> yay cm10.2 :) i use that on my s3
[13:05] <diddledan> I've got stock kitkat on my n5
[13:05] <diddledan> just sayin
[13:05] <diddledan> :-p
[13:06] <MooDoo> :p
[13:06] <MooDoo> cm will have it soon :p
[13:06] <diddledan> they've gone to flatland
[13:07] <brobostigon> MooDoo: will probably have nightlies in 4 or 5 months time.
[13:07] <ali1234> you always have to wipe the dalvik cache after you update cyanogenmod, and i always forget
[13:07] <ali1234> and then it breaks
[13:07] <MooDoo> brobostigon: yeah I'm instaling nightlies any way, normally leave it a few days before I update.
[13:08] <brobostigon> MooDoo: i was on 10.1 previously before 10.2-m1 ,
[13:09] <selinuxium> Afternoon all   o/
[13:09] <brobostigon> afternoodlings selinuxium
[13:09] <diddledan> nood?
[13:09] <diddledan> who's nood?
[13:09] <diddledan> pics or it didn't happen!
[13:10] <brobostigon> it was a play on words, as some people have noodles around lunch time, which it is.
[13:10] <ali1234> hmm sounds like a plan
[13:10] <selinuxium> Top Ramen and Jump cola...
[13:11] <selinuxium> <remembering the late night programmers diet>
[13:13] <diddledan> lunch. that definitely sounds important.
[13:13] <popey> ali1234: no
[13:18] <MooDoo> brobostigon: not done the m1 yet
[13:22] <brobostigon> MooDoo: it worked well, untill i gor the above issue.
[13:35] <daftykins> hmm a client has begun using: http://www.xero.com/uk/
[13:35] <daftykins> online accounting service via her accountants 0o
[13:39] <TheOpenSourcerer> daftykins: Yay! I'd love to put by company's financial details out of my control too ;-) Where do I sign up?
[13:39] <TheOpenSourcerer> *my
[13:40] <dwatkins> There's a similar thing advertised on GRC's podcasts which does invoicing automatically and clients get an e-mail with a link to click and pay
[13:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yep OpenERP does that too :-)
[13:40] <daftykins> TheOpenSourcerer: very trusting isn't it
[13:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> very
[13:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> At least with OpenERP it's my database.
[13:41] <daftykins> the idea is she'll be able to upload pics of her expense receipts direct now
[13:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> And...
[13:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> ?
[13:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> OpenERP does that too.
[13:42] <daftykins> oh it wasn't any kind of comparison statement
[13:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> No - just wondering what was coming after "uploading..."
[13:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> To do what?
[13:42] <mgdm> can OpenERP make me a bacon sarnie? :)
[13:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yes!
[13:42] <daftykins> oic - just to provide them direct paperless as i understand
[13:43] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: TheOpenSourcerer can write a module for it I'm sure
[13:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> if you can write a Pythion module for it.
[13:43] <mgdm> \o/
[13:43] <daftykins> i need to give them a prod to see what their ideal method would be, i was thinking smartphone + dropbox, heh
[13:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> Not me. AlanBell probably could though.
[13:43] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: Are you a wizard? :)
[13:43] <daftykins> Pinball Wizard
[13:44]  * mgdm wires up an Arduino to a George Foreman, and talks to it over MQTT (MQ Toastie Transport)
[13:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> I'm not trying to push OpenERP - It is *nothing* like Xero in reality and not really for one-man-band type businesses who just want simple accounts.
[13:44] <MartijnVdS> mgdm: HTCPCP
[13:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> AlanBell: Is now at lunch.
[13:45] <MartijnVdS> do nov  7 14:45:04 CET 2013
[14:02] <Martyn86> Hi there :) Does anyone here sell computers with Ubuntu on them? The reason I ask is I have 6 towers and I don't know what to do with them...
[14:03] <diddledan> Martyn86: are you asking about new or second hand sellers?
[14:03] <jussi> Martyn86: there are a bunch of charities... also I _think_ AlanBell was involved with something
[14:04] <Martyn86> Never thought of charities, that's an idea...
[14:05] <jussi> Martyn86: czajkowski may have been somehow involved in charity stuff also, but I am unsure if she still is.
[14:05] <Martyn86> Did think of turning them into servers BUT I have a crap connection :D
[14:06] <Martyn86> Ok will have a look at my local charities and see what they say thanks Jussi :D
[14:06] <jussi> MAAS!
[14:06] <jussi> Martyn86: you are most welcome :)
[14:06] <MartijnVdS> jussi: MAAS-as-a-service!
[14:07] <jussi> hehe
[14:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> Any MS Houses? Prices up again shortly... http://www.netnetweb.com/blog/microsoft-price-increases-yep-here-it-comes-again/
[14:21] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: yeah, they have to fund those PHP bounties somehow: https://hackerone.com/ibb
[14:22] <shauno> msft really don't want to make it easy to stay legit
[14:23] <diddledan> 20%? ouch
[14:23] <shauno> I just found out they don't have trial versions of 2003 anymore :(
[14:23] <diddledan> shauno: I guess you can't run exchange then :-p
[14:24] <shauno> heh, good guess.  trying to mockup this braindamage to see what he's looking at
[14:24] <DJones> Anybody got their bitcoins in Inputs.io http://www.techienews.co.uk/972801/secure-bitcoin-wallet-inputs-io-hacked-unable-pay-user-balances/
[14:24] <TheOpenSourcerer> There's really not much reason to stay on MS any more, apart from legacy support issues. There's plenty of alternatives
[14:24] <ali1234> nope.
[14:24] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: tell that to the people still using big Windows apps
[14:24] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: yes, they exist
[14:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> that's why I said "legacy"
[14:26] <diddledan> Azelphur: are your bitcoins safe? 30K is a lot to lose to hackers
[14:27] <diddledan> big doesn't necessarily mean legacy
[14:27] <diddledan> and windows doesn't necessarily mean legacy either
[14:27] <diddledan> it could be brand new
[14:27] <TheOpenSourcerer> Windows *is* legacy software
[14:27] <diddledan> people really are still putting money into the ecosystem
[14:27] <shauno> 30k?  says they lost 4100 btc.  btc hit $300 today, so that's over 750k
[14:27] <ali1234> the only version of windows that isn't legacy is 8, and nobody uses that
[14:27] <diddledan> that's a matter of opinion
[14:28] <mgdm> Legacy is a word that has come to mean "anything that isn't the thing I'm currently trying to sell you"
[14:28] <diddledan> shauno: Azelphur has 30K at last count
[14:28] <TheOpenSourcerer> Or it's what the London Olympics promised ;-)
[14:29] <MartijnVdS> shauno: it hit $300?! whoa
[14:29] <ali1234> it hit $318 earlier
[14:29] <MartijnVdS> bitstamp has it at 285 atm
[14:30] <ali1234> there is a big difference between the exchanges depending on the fees and what currencies they support
[14:30] <MartijnVdS> bitstamp is one of the biggest Euro ones
[14:30] <shauno> this is the weird side of btc being 'free'.  I wonder how much law enforcement will get involved with a 750,000gbp robbery
[14:31] <ali1234> i'm guessing "not at all"
[14:31] <ali1234> like they don't get involved in any computer crime except when it makes them look bad
[14:31] <shauno> as far as the law goes, it does't actually seem too different from sheldon cooper calling the police when his WoW items were stolen
[14:31] <diddledan> the only computer crime they're interested in is kiddyporn
[14:32] <diddledan> shauno: I hope they helped
[14:32] <diddledan> I haven't seen that episode
[14:32] <shauno> I won't ruin it for you :)
[14:34] <diddledan> "wait, I need closure on that anecdote"
[14:35] <Laney> grarg
[14:35] <MartijnVdS> Laney: BRAINS?
[14:35] <diddledan> lol
[14:35] <Laney> BRAINSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
[14:36] <MooDoo> zombie apocalypse ubuntu uk style
[14:37] <Laney> Or: help me with this: My smoke alarm, which is integrated with the burglar alarm, went off yesterday, and is now blocking the setting of the intruder alarm when we leave. It's immune to the normal reset procedure.
[14:37] <Laney> crappy device
[14:37] <diddledan> wait. I didn't g+ terrible terrible halloween photos
[14:37] <diddledan> my entire costume consisted of a scouser wig
[14:37] <diddledan> I mean, who in their right mind isn't afraid of northerners?!
[14:38] <daftykins> hrmm i've got a wordpress setup playing up - it's unable to contact the wordpress.org site it seems, as it doesn't think there are any updates available
[14:38] <daftykins> has anyone had much experience with the devils?
[14:38] <diddledan> daftykins: what version?
[14:38] <daftykins> it's stuck on 3.5.1
[14:38] <diddledan> aah, it's not that it silently updated itself then
[14:38] <daftykins> "An unexpected error has occurred" if i try and search plugins
[14:39] <diddledan> 3.7 has auto update enabled
[14:39] <daftykins> ja
[14:39] <daftykins> there are no issues wget'ing the latest wordpress zip
[14:39] <daftykins> so my VPS doesn't have the site blocked
[14:39] <diddledan> maybe the API changed?
[14:39] <shauno> just took a peek in on a friends, seems to be checking for details fine, so it doesn't look clogged at wp's end
[14:40] <shauno> also noticed she has over 10,000 comments in moderation.  uhoh
[14:40] <ali1234> what happens if i update my server, which cannot be updated over the web, to 3.7?
[14:40] <diddledan> shauno: fun
[14:40] <daftykins> shauno: thanks - yeah this is a custom build one by a web dev, so it's not worked since the beginning
[14:40] <diddledan> ali1234: it tries and fails
[14:40] <ali1234> every time?
[14:40] <MartijnVdS> all the times!
[14:41] <diddledan> ali1234: why can't it be updated over the web? what do you mean by that?
[14:41] <ali1234> the biggest security problem with wordpress is not people running out of date versions. it's the very fact that they make the source directory writable by the webserver
[14:41] <diddledan> if it's in a closed-off system that physically can't access the internet then it won't know that there's an update available
[14:41] <ali1234> therefore on my install, the wordpress directory is not writable by the webserver
[14:41] <diddledan> ic
[14:41] <diddledan> it should detect that wordpress files are unwritable and not try
[14:42] <ali1234> in order to update wordpress or any plugins i log in on ssh, download them, and unpack them as a normal user
[14:42] <mgdm> Does WP do the thing where there's only an index.php in the web root and all the code is elsewhere?
[14:42] <diddledan> mgdm: no
[14:42] <ali1234> not by default
[14:42] <diddledan> you can do that tho
[14:42] <mgdm> I keep forgetting it's designed to work on shared hosts
[14:42] <MartijnVdS> not many "easy to install" web-downloadable PHP apps do
[14:42] <mgdm> many of which can't do that
[14:42] <diddledan> but wp-admin files need to be available directly
[14:43] <MartijnVdS> they do ship a restrictive .htaccess I think,
[14:43] <mgdm> that requries that .htaccess files are actually parsed :-)
[14:44] <diddledan> the htaccess they ship effectively rewrites everything to index.php except for files that exist on the provided path
[14:44] <daftykins> any thoughts on what i should do to try and track down why this wordpress instance can't dial home?
[14:44] <MartijnVdS> true, especially now more and more hosters are switching to not-apache httpds
[14:44] <daftykins> maybe i should just enable wordpress debug and see if it tells me :)
[14:45] <ali1234> check the error logs
[14:45] <ali1234> it will probably be moaning there, it usually does
[14:45] <daftykins> i've tried looking in /var/log/apache2 but don't see anything relevant
[14:46] <ali1234> no vhosts?
[14:46] <MartijnVdS> no error.log?
[14:46] <MartijnVdS> no ErrorLog directive in /etc/apache/sites-enabled/your_vhost.conf ?
[14:47] <diddledan> error log is usually /var/log/apache2/error_log
[14:47] <daftykins> error.log hasn't been written to today
[14:47] <ali1234> that seems unlikely
[14:48] <daftykins> i wonder if it's something to do with my setup being a BigV VPS with symbiosis
[14:48] <ali1234> does it have plesk or something?
[14:48] <daftykins> nah
[14:48] <ali1234> that totally screws up all apache configuration
[14:48] <daftykins> symbiosis is their automagic config thing
[14:49] <daftykins> it configures things by just creating directories in the right places
[14:50] <daftykins> ah i found the relevant file, zz-mass-hosting.access.log
[14:50] <daftykins> well that one is at least updated
[14:50] <diddledan> daftykins: sounds like they're using mod_vhost_alias
[14:50] <daftykins> should be a correspondingly named error
[14:51] <daftykins> i'm mostly just seeing file does not exist errors
[14:52] <daftykins> and nothing up to the minute
[14:52] <daftykins> perhaps it's wordpress debug time
[14:56] <popey> http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/11/playstation4-teardown-video/
[14:57] <daftykins> :O
[14:57] <diddledan> popey: that's just wrong
[14:58] <diddledan> imagine someone doing a popey teardown video!!!
[14:58] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: the horror!
[14:58] <diddledan> it's just cruelty for the sake of it
[14:58] <popey> its a nicely made video
[14:58] <diddledan> poor ps4. what did it ever do to upset the videographer
[14:59] <popey> its really nicely put together
[14:59] <directhex> probsbly a non working unit
[14:59] <AlanBell> good idea to do their own teardown
[14:59] <diddledan> it would have been perfectly happy sat under the telly and then some evil bar steward comes along, captures it and subjects it to torture!
[14:59] <popey> makes a point of saying you can use any hard disk
[14:59] <popey> didnt realise ps4 was x86
[15:00] <AlanBell> no more cell clever oddness
[15:00] <MartijnVdS> popey: xbox one and ps4 both have AMD APUs
[15:00] <MartijnVdS> whichever console wins this round, AMD also wins
[15:06] <diddledan> that motherboard looks pretty spartan
[15:06] <diddledan> and not very condensed
[15:07] <diddledan> it looks like it's bigger than it needs to be
[15:07] <diddledan> to a non-trained eye like mine, that is
[15:07] <popey> yeah, i thought that
[15:09] <diddledan> they seem to have taken the lessons learned by cellphone manufacturers and said, no we want to do it the other way
[15:09] <mgdm> wonder if that's to do with heat or EMI or some other things </clueless newbie>
[15:10] <daftykins> diddledan: best way, makes the later release of the smaller model sell ;)
[15:10]  * diddledan sits with mgdm on the newbie bench
[15:10] <popey> well otherwise they'd need two boards?
[15:10] <popey> or cables and such
[15:11] <ali1234> the board looks empty because there's no traces on the top and bottom layers
[15:11] <ali1234> nokia does the same thing
[15:13] <ali1234> eg http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/n900_11.jpeg
[15:13] <diddledan> I also wonder why a games console needs a cmos-ram-backup battery
[15:14] <mgdm> it's essentially a PC in a different box
[15:14] <diddledan> surely they all ship with the same cmos-ram setup so they can bake that into flash instead of cmos
[15:14] <mgdm> what about the date and time?
[15:15] <diddledan> ntp
[15:15] <diddledan> they've pretty much specified that the units have to be permanetted
[15:15] <diddledan> afaik
[15:29] <diddledan> can anyone get to wpmu.org?
[15:29] <diddledan> I loaded a page and now it's dead
[15:30] <diddledan> it looks like cloudflare's dns is broke
[15:31] <mgdm> Works For Me™
[15:31] <daftykins> diddledan: working here sir
[15:31] <mgdm> I'd be surprised if CloudFlare's DNS was broken over your own :P
[15:31] <diddledan> cloudflare.com itself seems down
[15:32] <shauno> both are up here
[15:32] <mgdm> diddledan: no, it's you and/or your DNS :)
[15:32] <daftykins> i think if i got a next gen console i'd want to pop an SSD in straight away
[15:33] <diddledan> this is what I was getting while it was broke: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6376885/
[15:33] <popey> i have an SSD in my Xbox 360
[15:33] <AlanBell> 500GB SSD is still a wee bit costly
[15:33] <daftykins> popey: breaks terms of service though
[15:34] <daftykins> you can be banned online
[15:34] <popey> wat?
[15:35] <daftykins> if it's in essence, a mod, it's against ToS
[15:35] <mungbean> what happens when you get opless channels in freenode?
[15:35] <mungbean> and a persistent troll?
[15:35] <AlanBell> mungbean: does the channel name start with #ubuntu-* ?
[15:35] <diddledan> mungbean: the troll be's mindless?
[15:35] <mgdm> mungbean: are they definitely opless, or are there ops who just aren't opped at the moment (like in here?)
[15:35] <mungbean> nope
[15:36] <mungbean> mgdm: i dunno
[15:36] <AlanBell> then ask in #freenode
[15:36] <mungbean> thx
[15:36] <diddledan> if there's a mindless idiot and noone to control him, then the chances are he'll carry on being mindless
[15:37] <shauno> diddledan: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6376900/
[15:37] <diddledan> I think it was the wrong question to ask when there's someone like me about
[15:37] <diddledan> I'll pick it to pieces in no time :-p
[15:37] <popey> not sure how it's a mod
[15:37] <daftykins> popey: is it a legit xbox accessory?
[15:38] <daftykins> because i don't think they make SSDs for them
[15:39] <shauno> it's either stock,a licenced accessory, or a modification. whether it's enough to violate probably depends on what jobsworth you run into, what mood they woke up in, and what you did to get their attention in the first place
[15:40] <popey> how odd
[15:40] <daftykins> shauno: yip
[15:40] <daftykins> it's either account bans / console bans
[15:40] <shauno> the problem is automated schemes.  because they're either jobsworths or broken.
[15:43] <popey> i had no idea putting a hard disk in was a bannable offence
[15:43] <popey> hey ho
[15:43] <popey> i just shoved it in
[15:44] <mungbean> :-|
[15:44] <daftykins> *nod*
[15:44] <daftykins> times be awkward
[15:44] <daftykins> i'd love an SSD in mine to make GTA V's streamloading issues go away
[15:47] <dwatkins> I imagne they have a list of tested hard drives.
[15:48] <dwatkins> Anything not in the list is effectively unsupported.
[15:49] <daftykins> well, their tested list would comprise of their accessories only i should think :)
[15:49] <dwatkins> most likely it does, allowing them to package them appropriately (thus reducing support costs for people fitting their own disks)
[15:50] <daftykins> it's only the 360 S that exposes the standard 2.5" connectors i believe
[15:50] <daftykins> my elite and the older models all have the proprietary connector and sort of docking piece that slaps on the top/side
[15:53] <daftykins> naturally, those can probably be stripped down to insert an aftermarket drive, but i think there are encryption keys making that harder
[16:15] <daftykins> just sent my email to my ISP to complain about the router resets that occurred whilst i was away
[16:15] <daftykins> hopefully they don't fob me off
[16:15] <SuperMatt> they probably will
[16:15] <SuperMatt> no offence
[16:16] <daftykins> heh
[16:16] <daftykins> i use non-default subnets on me and my clients routers, so when they occurred they got pretty scuppered
[16:16] <SuperMatt> yeesh
[16:16] <SuperMatt> oh wait, factory resets?
[16:16] <daftykins> yeah they somehow factory reset them
[16:16] <SuperMatt> /o\
[16:16] <daftykins> from their end
[16:17] <SuperMatt> that's the wortst
[16:17] <daftykins> despite modified passwords etc.
[16:17] <SuperMatt> get your butt-kickin boots on
[16:17] <daftykins> indeed :D
[16:18] <daftykins> i demanded an explanation, explanation of what actions they've taken to stop it in future and potentially newer firmware versions without that function
[16:19] <awilkins> I just use my own router
[16:19] <awilkins> ISP supplied router is in "MODEM" mode
[16:19] <daftykins> yeah, VDSL2+ seems hard to provide for though
[16:20] <daftykins> etailers aren't exactly packed with options
[16:20] <daftykins> silly me i thought we'd be ok with the Technicolor TG789vn's they give us
[16:20] <awilkins> Can you not just do the same, just put a router inside the ISP one
[16:21] <daftykins> less than ideal, quite the waste of power to have two devices where only one is needed
[16:24] <daftykins> i've got a Huawei HG612 mind you, but they're wired only :)
[16:25] <daftykins> so you'd need a separate WAP still then
[16:25] <daftykins> BT Openreach units
[16:32] <directhex> BT issue huawei or ECI modems, plus their router
[16:32] <directhex> apparently the new homehub 5 has built-in vdsl modem, but they're still issuing modems by default
[16:33] <daftykins> o rly
[16:34] <daftykins> yeah the little Huawei is modem only as-is but can do NAT when modified
[16:34] <diddledan> I've got an openreach HG612
[16:34] <directhex> in the general case, i'd be wary of using a single device
[16:34] <directhex> consider every consumer-grade adsl router you've used, and how it falls over under load...
[16:34] <diddledan> I had to reset it when I changed suppliers to sky because sky are weird, but before that I'd hacked it
[16:37] <daftykins> directhex: yeah, i always had a modular setup myself in the past
[16:37] <daftykins> but this Technicolor i have is the first non-'g' wireless thing i've owned XD
[16:48] <shauno> I like having a seperate modem just for troubleshooting.  the last installer to take one look at my 'home office' told me I'm on my own. if I can plug the modem straight to my laptop and replicate it, they can stop blaming me
[16:58] <shauno> I still have two routers running off one modem.  I'd really need to hide that if they ever need to come back
[17:02] <diddledan> shauno: daisy chained or..?
[17:04] <shauno> nope, each one net-facing with its own public IP
[17:05] <diddledan> serials?
[17:05] <diddledan> how'd you manage that?
[17:05] <shauno> parallels :p
[17:05] <diddledan> don't most isps limit the mac address?
[17:05] <diddledan> i.e. only one mac per line
[17:05] <shauno> honestly, I have no idea how it works.  I never exepected it to work
[17:05] <diddledan> so to use a different unit you have to disconnect the first
[17:06] <diddledan> really odd
[17:06] <diddledan> I might have to give that a go
[17:06] <diddledan> I wonder if sky would notice that my vdsl line had two ips
[17:06] <shauno> I had everything hooked up when it was fresh installed.  and then I finally found the option to switch it to bridged (commented out in the UI!).  and it all .. just worked
[17:07] <diddledan> is that cable or dsl?
[17:07] <shauno> cable
[17:07] <diddledan> hmm
[17:07] <diddledan> oddness
[17:07] <shauno> I don't do dsl.  the state telco here make BT look fresh & innocent
[17:08] <diddledan> do virgin do the cable over there or is there a local co?
[17:08] <shauno> nah, chorus/upc bought the remains of ntl-ireland
[17:08] <shauno> so it's neither virgin, nor local
[17:10] <mgdm> shauno: where are you?
[17:10] <mgdm> oh, nm
[17:10] <diddledan> lol
[17:10] <diddledan> mgdm: brainfart?
[17:10] <mgdm> no, I just missed a line
[17:16] <shauno> I know it's not linux, but any ideas what this line means?  (in ifconfig's output)  "nd6 options=1<PERFORMNUD>"
[17:17] <diddledan> lmao
[17:18] <diddledan> I read that as "perform nude"
[17:18] <diddledan> I was thinking, sure I know shauno 's nets aren't the most family friendly but still
[17:19] <shauno> I'm actually not sure that it's not, but I have no idea why it's in the ipv6 neighbour-discovery?
[17:19] <diddledan> google doesn't know
[17:20] <diddledan> top answer: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2010-November/060301.html
[17:21] <diddledan> nud = neighbour update, mayhaps?
[17:21] <diddledan> another flag I see for that field is accept_rtadv which obcviously means accept router advertisements
[17:22] <diddledan> ooh, my thunderbolt ethernet supports hardware vlan tagging
[17:25] <diddledan> why are KVM switches so bloomin expensive?
[17:25] <diddledan> especially dual-head ones
[17:26] <shauno> that reminds me, I wonder if freebsd has ip-over-thunderbolt yet.  waiting for that one, oddly
[17:26] <diddledan> o_O
[17:26] <diddledan> how's that work?
[17:26] <shauno> same as when you throw a firewire cable between two machines
[17:27] <diddledan> oic
[17:27] <shauno> except now you're looking at 10gig for the (high) price of a cable instead of 800meg
[17:29] <shauno> suffice to say I'm really hoping this finds its way to freenas
[17:30] <diddledan> ok, usually they're expensive, how is this one not? http://g.bowlhat.net/17aQPOK
[17:31] <mgdm> probably because it uses a physical switch instead of electronics to do all the switching
[17:32] <mgdm> </wild speculation>
[17:32] <mgdm> </closing tags are the new hashtags>
[17:34] <diddledan> aah
[17:35] <imanc> ls
[17:35] <mgdm> Password:
[17:36] <Laney> hunter2
[17:40] <mgdm> I just saw *******
[17:50] <Azelphur> diddledan: as safe as I can make them, they are on a laptop with a full drive encrypted partition, with an OS dedicated to just the bitcoin client, and nothing else.
[17:52] <shauno> it reads like the scale of the hack was mismanagement.  most sites use a 'hot wallet' and a second out-of-band.  the hot wallet is meant to be the exposed 'inbox' that's kept as small as it can just for this reason
[17:54] <shauno> it sounds like input.io's 'hot wallet' accounted for something like 90% of their balance
[17:54] <Azelphur> shauno: yea, it's a combination of things really
[17:54] <Azelphur> a site like that should hot wallet, and have various sanity checks on the server.
[17:55] <Azelphur> it also sounds like the host was compromised rather than inputs.io itself, I've seen that happen before
[17:55] <Azelphur> it's a very good lesson in security for everyone really, It doesn't matter how secure you make your server, as attackers can just target the host.
[17:57] <diddledan> it was a vps then?
[17:57] <Azelphur> diddledan: no idea, the article says "The attacker managed to compromise the hosting account of input.io through the use of an old email address"
[17:58] <AlanBell> bitcoin is being a learning experience for many
[17:59] <MartijnVdS> did it drop again?
[17:59] <daftykins> http://i.imgur.com/5Dq6K2U.png
[17:59] <daftykins> i like this ^
[17:59] <Azelphur> hehe
[18:00] <Azelphur> and just for reference, I'm north of £21k in this bubble now :)
[18:01] <Azelphur> but, it is of course a bubble, it'll go down soon, and I can't cash out because the tax man will want his ridiculouspercent.
[18:01] <Azelphur> I imagine it'll probably settle around £80-£120 once this is all over
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> so.. time to get verified with bitstamp ;)
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> and await the </bubble>
[18:05] <AlanBell> tax man is concerned with net income over the period surely
[18:05] <shauno> curious, do you come out better off if you cash out at a less-taxable amount?  surely there has to be a point where you still walk away with more despite the taxes
[18:05] <AlanBell> losses offset gains
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> so you CAN cash out, as long as you re-invest before the end of the (tax) year
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> ?
[18:11] <shauno> that said, I've never figured out how taxes work here.  I just know that when I get a bonus, it feels like I didn't
[18:11] <AlanBell> yes, if bitcoin isn't considered money
[18:12] <AlanBell> and this isn't income tax anyhow, you are doing it through a ltd company right Azelphur?
[18:13] <Azelphur> shauno: as far as I know, there's no way for me to walk out with a profit if I pay tax.
[18:13] <Azelphur> AlanBell: nah I'm not, this is all my personal stuff, and I believe if I cashed out I'd have to pay capital gains, which would be 40%
[18:13] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: what if it goes up to $400 or $500?
[18:13] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: there must be a turning point?
[18:13] <Azelphur> so in order to cash out and buy back in, I'd loose 40%.
[18:13] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: oh sure, it's just ridiculously high / probably never gonna happen
[18:14] <AlanBell> oh, capital gains might be nasty, yeah
[18:14] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: this is a record right?
[18:14] <Azelphur> MartijnVdS: nah, we've been at thesep rices before
[18:14] <AlanBell> erm, wrap it in a company
[18:14] <Azelphur> but if I wanted to try and turn a profit on this, I'd have to sell now, and then the price would have to fall to £80 (currently £200) for me to break even on rebuying
[18:14] <Azelphur> which...most likely isn't going to happen.
[18:15] <shauno> sell it to Azelphur Ltd for a bargain price?
[18:15] <Azelphur> I dunno, I am actually director on a bitcoin ltd now
[18:15] <Azelphur> but the thing is its a 3 way split
[18:15] <Azelphur> so I guess I'd have to create a new company just for myself
[18:15] <Azelphur> but then the company would still have to pay capital gains, no?
[18:15] <Azelphur> maybe I should use all this money to hire an accountant.
[18:15] <AlanBell> yeah, just azelphur holdings ltd
[18:16] <AlanBell> and you need to get the asset into the company somehow
[18:16] <AlanBell> dunno how you would do that bit, it is an accountant question
[18:16] <shauno> I'd highly recommend shauno ltd., our corporate tax is the laughing stock of the world ;)
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: you could try the Google/Amazon/Vodafone trick
[18:17] <Azelphur> lol :p
[18:17] <Azelphur> oh yea?
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: The Netherlands allows tax loopholes or something
[18:17] <Azelphur> fun
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: look for: Dutch Sandwich
[18:18] <AlanBell> companies can buy and sell things, you just have to make sure it isn't a business asset, which it probably isn't
[18:18] <shauno> "Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich" .. perhaps accountants have more fun than I give them credit for
[18:18] <MartijnVdS> shauno: sounds dirty
[18:18] <Azelphur> xD
[18:18] <shauno> really?  sounds like some tipple with lunch to me
[18:19] <Azelphur> the other thing is if I did sell out, I'd end up having to do it in cash or something
[18:19] <Azelphur> since all the banks don't like me any more :<
[18:19] <Azelphur> and that's a lot of cash xD
[18:19] <shauno> another point for ireland .. we have banks that haven't heard of you yet :p
[18:20] <Azelphur> haha, good point
[18:20] <Azelphur> I'm not even sure if I'd wanna trust a bank transfer on that though, they are so easy to reverse
[18:20] <Azelphur> that's why I stopped trading, reversing bank transfers became popular
[18:21] <shauno> not sure I'd do it one lump anyway, just because I really don't believe in this imaginary system
[18:21] <Azelphur> lol
[18:22] <Azelphur> I could sell most if not all of it in one shot, I do regularly get people contacting me for large amounts from my trading days
[18:22] <shauno> well, that's essentially what it is.  an imaginary system, with the dollar value being the measurement of current faith
[18:22] <Azelphur> had someone asking to buy 100 BTC this morning
[18:23] <penguin42> Azelphur: Have you tried the smaller banks/building societies?  XD
[18:26] <diddledan> surely you can tell them it's international money laundering. it probably isn't far from the truth tbh :-p
[18:26] <penguin42> Azelphur: one or two at a time?
[18:26] <novine7> hello!
[18:27] <novine7> Anyone here?
[18:27] <Azelphur> penguin42: heh I tried that too, problem with that is if you wanna go such small sales, you have to trade with a boatload of people, they chargeback ya :)
[18:27] <novine7> Hello Azelphur
[18:27] <Azelphur> hello
[18:27] <shauno> I feel poor now, I've never had a bank question a transaction
[18:27] <novine7> hello shauno
[18:27] <shauno> hi :)
[18:28] <diddledan> it seems that pretty much at least once a month my debit card gets blocked for fraud checks
[18:28] <novine7> What typically goes on in this cannel? I'n new
[18:28] <penguin42> novine7: Random discussions
[18:28] <popey> also ubuntu
[18:28] <Azelphur> shauno: I've had the bank reverse a £5000 tx, and lie to the police about it.
[18:28] <shauno> ah my creditcard is different .. they still haven't got the hang of most my significant transactions being at 3am
[18:28] <penguin42> novine7: Vaguely related to computing, sometimes to ubuntu, occasionally UK specific
[18:28] <Azelphur> they don't have any credibility in my book :)
[18:28] <novine7> Cool!
[18:29] <novine7> Anyone here watch Sherlock? Dr who?
[18:29] <popey> yes. yes.
[18:29] <novine7> :D
[18:29] <diddledan> shauno: that's the very reason mine gets blocked
[18:29] <novine7> MOUSTACHE
[18:30] <Azelphur> diddledan: Santander blocked mine for buying a desk from ikea once
[18:30] <Azelphur> serious criminal activity, yo.
[18:30] <penguin42> Azelphur: Just think of all the crimes you could have committed on that desk
[18:30] <diddledan> Azelphur: you're a known trouble maker, though
[18:30] <novine7> Wow! Why?
[18:30] <shauno> diddledan: it's getting better though.  the security number is open 24x7 now, so I don't have to wait until normalpeople o'clock
[18:30] <Azelphur> xD
[18:30] <diddledan> shauno: I need to make a note of hsbc's
[18:30] <penguin42> shauno: Why do you make your significant payments at 3am ?
[18:31] <diddledan> penguin42: because.. geek.
[18:31] <penguin42> diddledan: No, a geek would make them at 3.14
[18:31] <diddledan> surely every geek knows that the middle of the night is the most productive time
[18:31] <shauno> usually because funds into the card show up on the account at midnight.  give or take a few hours to panic attack, question my choices, etc
[18:31]  * penguin42 tends to start to flake a bit by 3am
[18:32] <diddledan> shauno:you work on ensuring your account is empty by the end of payday?
[18:32] <diddledan> I hear that!
[18:33] <shauno> my CC has a fairly low limit on it.  if I want a laptop, I pretty much have to zero it before I can start again
[18:34] <shauno> infact, the cost of the laptop I wanted last time I had to ask them to raise it, pretty much defines the limit
[18:38] <shauno> I really don't like high limits.  I actually had a bank in the states lower it because the initial limit was just stupid (in excess of my annual income)
[18:38] <penguin42> how did you persuade them to give you a limit that low?
[18:39] <ali1234> barclays used to stop my card every time i used it on line
[18:39] <shauno> the one here started at 1000eur, and I've only had it raised as far a macbook pro required
[18:39] <ali1234> then they figured out i ONLY use it online, so they stopped
[18:40] <shauno> the first card I had in the states was around $20k.  I was working in a coffee shop at the time.  no wonder they hit a 'credit crunch'
[18:45] <Myrtti> novine7: Benedict, where? what about Sherlock? :-D
[18:55] <ali1234> Azelphur: is bitcoinin.com trusted?
[18:55] <Azelphur> never heard of it before, but looks pretty cool
[18:56] <ali1234> they've been around for a while but i've never heard anything good or bad about them
[18:56] <Azelphur> someone has to try them at some point :)
[18:56] <ali1234> i was going to order like 10 raspis and send 8 of them to alanbell
[18:57] <ali1234> depending on what the price does the next few days/weeks, anyway
[19:07] <czajkowski> Aloha
[19:14] <AlanBell> ali1234: cool :)
[19:15] <AlanBell> I think I just found my 5V transformer for the common power rail http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD0YJVwzOZ4
[19:15] <MartijnVdS> that's 5V AC isn't it?
[19:15] <AlanBell> now I need a 540A AC->DC converter
[19:15] <diddledan> erm
[19:15] <diddledan> eek
[19:16] <MartijnVdS> also, yes, that man is scary.
[19:16] <ali1234> AlanBell: that "professional dumbass" video from earlier was pretty funny too
[19:17] <penguin42> AlanBell: That's a surprisingly small transformer
[19:17] <AlanBell> the wires in the water one?
[19:18] <AlanBell> couldn't believe it when he dropped the LED and shoved his hand right in to get it
[19:18] <shauno> I saw one recently with a transformer pulled out of microwave.  he was spot-welding at 2V
[19:18] <diddledan> wtf?
[19:18] <diddledan> you're all insane
[19:19] <diddledan> that's not entertainment!
[19:19] <ali1234> AlanBell: yeah that was my favourite part
[19:19] <diddledan> that's suicide on tv
[19:19] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: but if that's not entertainment, I don't know what is
[19:19] <diddledan> here, let me record my own death..
[19:19] <penguin42> AlanBell: My dad's building a 3.5Kv PSU at the moment, the transformer ways a good few kg
[19:19] <AlanBell> diddledan: well not really, the TV version of water based electrocution is a lot more dramatic than reality
[19:20] <ali1234> seriously though, you probably only need about 50-100A of 5V
[19:20] <AlanBell> so, I am starting to think that the comedy spider of 4 ways and lots of transformers isn't entirely insane
[19:20] <AlanBell> compared to 50A of anything :)
[19:20] <penguin42> AlanBell: PC power supply, easy
[19:20] <mgdm> ali1234: got a link?
[19:21] <diddledan> yeah and if you start at 240V at 13A and take it down to 5V you probably do have a pretty sizeable current
[19:21] <diddledan> I forget the actual maths
[19:21] <ali1234> mgdm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcrY59nGxBg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[19:21] <shauno> just (240/5)*13A I think
[19:21] <penguin42> AlanBell: There's a trivial thing to get PC power supplies to boot up without a PC attached; if you want to spread she load nicely get some 12v-5v converters
[19:22] <shauno> and throw some of the required switches on the 12V rail.  1A @ 12V is normal for a 8-port dumb switch
[19:22] <MartijnVdS> car batteries!
[19:23] <penguin42> Lemons!
[19:23] <MartijnVdS> + some 12V->5V regulators
[19:23] <mgdm> ali1234: eeeep
[19:23] <shauno> the great thing is PC supplies don't actually assume a huge load on the 12V rail.  they provide it because some people have some idiotic gpu requirements, but they can't assume it
[19:23] <penguin42> shauno: Yeh I've got a modern PC that takes 18W total
[19:23] <MartijnVdS> shauno: modern CPUs also require more 12V
[19:24] <AlanBell> so, if I start with a 4 way, and plug in 2 4 ways, then plug in 8 4ways into those I get 32 sockets (and 2 left over)
[19:24] <TheOpenSourcerer> Evening all.
[19:25] <AlanBell> cost of that is £33
[19:25] <ali1234> yeha but you hav to buy 32 5V adapters
[19:25] <TheOpenSourcerer> Anyone know of a tool I could run on one of our servers on the internet to provide me with a dynamic dns for *my* domain name?
[19:26] <TheOpenSourcerer> At home
[19:26] <TheOpenSourcerer> I moved to BT recently and lost my static IP
[19:26] <AlanBell> then 32 USB charger things, at £5/pop is £160
[19:26] <ali1234> AlanBell: just get a couple of these: http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/TDK-Lambda-LS200-5-Chassis-Mount-Power-Supply-51-4227
[19:26] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: yes, multiple
[19:26] <AlanBell> TheOpenSourcerer: you might be able to run the ddns thing on your router
[19:27] <TheOpenSourcerer> Cool - linky linky link MartijnVdS?
[19:27] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: let me look
[19:27] <shauno> one I was looking at recently though, is how to distribute it once you get it out the psu.  I figured micro-usb pigtails because they're easy  (motherboard-header to microusb cables for a $1 each). and those headers are a 0.1" pitch which is nice and easy
[19:27] <TheOpenSourcerer> AlanBell: It's a BT Home Hub 4.
[19:27] <TheOpenSourcerer> :-(
[19:27] <AlanBell> I like that ali1234
[19:27] <ali1234> they also have 5V/12V dual rail ones
[19:27] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: https://wiki.debian.org/DDNS
[19:27] <shauno> but then I realised that 30 some of those headers down a veroboard is probably going to melt
[19:28] <AlanBell> !info dyndns
[19:28] <AlanBell> !info ddns3-client
[19:28] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: that's the client bit, he wants to run it on his own domain (= servers, presumably)
[19:28] <AlanBell> aah, so you want lordies to point to a ddns domain . . .
[19:29] <shauno> I'd be lazy and use a regular dynamic-dns provider and just put a cname on my own domain.  let someone else worry about running a public-facing dns server with next-to-no ttl
[19:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yes - I guess so.
[19:29] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: nah, just read the debian wiki page I linked to :)
[19:29] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: it's possible with plain bind
[19:29] <AlanBell> if you host your own DNS
[19:30] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yeah - I just want to be able to type ssh<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and get home.
[19:30] <TheOpenSourcerer> for example
[19:30] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: that's going to be hard. What about "home.lordies.co.uk"
[19:30] <TheOpenSourcerer> That's OK.
[19:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> The MX records or on Google anyway.
[19:31] <diddledan> it's only going to be hard if you want lordies.co.uk to also point at a server somewhere
[19:31] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: where's the DNS?
[19:31] <diddledan> i.e. impossible
[19:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> We don;t have one.
[19:32] <diddledan> if lordies.co.uk is entirely dedicated to being the home address then it's fine to use the tld
[19:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> I don't really want to run bind if I can help it.
[19:32] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: DNS is being run *somewhere*
[19:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> By the domain registrar
[19:32] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: check if they do DDNS :)
[19:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> :-)
[19:32] <AlanBell> ali1234: that thing is fanless too, which is nice
[19:33] <shauno> seriously.  home.lordies.co.uk. IN CNAME lordies.dyndns.com.
[19:33] <MartijnVdS> that's probably the easiest
[19:33] <shauno> if you don't have bind under your beck and call already, it's .. incredibly sane
[19:33] <diddledan> do dyndns still do freebie hosts?
[19:33] <MartijnVdS> Not easily (you have to log in every other week on the web site) but some others still do
[19:34] <diddledan> I know I can still get them because I donated way back before they went commercial
[19:34] <shauno> no idea, it was the only one that sprang to mind.  but the same concept will work with any provider
[19:34] <shauno> I just give names to my v6 addresses.  my home isn't static but my tunnel is :)
[19:35] <diddledan> do you have a tunnel on your mac?
[19:35] <shauno> on my router
[19:35] <diddledan> I mean, once you're away from home the chances of getting a v6 trends to 0
[19:36] <DJones> I think the login for dyndns is every 30 days for me with a free account, I get an email reminder about a week before
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: teredo
[19:36] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: doesn't your supplier need to support that?
[19:36] <shauno> well, if I'm on my laptop, I rarely have something at home to ssh *to* :)
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: no
[19:36] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: it just needs to not block it ;)
[19:37] <shauno> but yeah, that's why I didn't suggest it.  just explaining why I don't use dyndns & such.  what I have is sufficient that I can scp fromvps laptop:, or scp ididn'tdownloadthat.mov tv:
[19:37]  * MartijnVdS has a static IPv4, a static v6 subnet and 100/100
[19:37] <MartijnVdS> Come to .nl y'all ;)
[19:37] <diddledan> bar steward
[19:38] <diddledan> nl sucks
[19:38] <shauno> my v4 isn't static, but it is a 28 day dhcp lease.  so I have no realworld issues unless my router's off for more than a month
[19:38] <diddledan> because I'm not there!
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: well, get over here ;)
[19:38] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: find me a job
[19:38] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: what skills do you have?
[19:38] <shauno> diddledan: do it!  it's a magical place.  they don't look at you strange for putting mayo on chips
[19:39] <diddledan> o_O
[19:39] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: I'm a wordpress implementer by trade
[19:39] <diddledan> i.e. custom programming theming etc
[19:39] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: that's a narrow skillset ;)
[19:39] <diddledan> indeed
[19:39] <mgdm> mayo on chips is pretty good actually
[19:40] <diddledan> php dev would be the all encompussing
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> it is
[19:40] <shauno> oh it is.  that's why I liked that they actually encourage it.  here I get the "you realise that's not ketchup" stare
[19:40] <mgdm> I know loads of PHP folk in .nl... :)
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: PHP devs are sought-after, I just left a PHP dev job (after just one month. Because the company culture sucked)
[19:40] <TheOpenSourcerer> Nope - Domain company sucks. I knew there was a reason why I hadn't logged in to them for some time...
[19:40] <diddledan> lol
[19:40] <AlanBell> TheOpenSourcerer: can you do a cname thing on it?
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: move to gandi.net -> http://groups.gandi.net/en/topic/gandi.en.api/3435
[19:41] <diddledan> you can pay me to manage it
[19:41] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: oh wait
[19:41] <MartijnVdS> TheOpenSourcerer: according tot he FAQ they dont
[19:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> Yeah - I might just get something on NoIP
[19:41] <TheOpenSourcerer> and cname to it.
[19:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> Apparently free for up to 3 hostnames
[19:44] <AlanBell> shove it on the godaddy account with all the rest
[19:44] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: godaddy is baaaad
[19:44] <AlanBell> yeah, I know
[19:44] <AlanBell> works though
[19:53] <penguin42> AlanBell: The Pis can be USB powered can't they? So I suggest http://www.cambrionix.com/components/large-capacity-49-port-charge-and-sync-station-professional-series-a6/
[19:53] <mgdm> I've never had much success doing it that way
[19:54] <diddledan> penguin42: that looks expensive
[19:54] <penguin42> diddledan: Compared to Alan's plan of 32 USB charger things and adapters?
[19:55] <penguin42> diddledan: I mean it's overkill in the sense he doesn't need it to actually be a USB hub
[19:55] <shauno> I do worry about the pricing on anything that has "call us" prices though
[19:56] <penguin42> yeh, it's a small Cambridge company - might be worth showing them what you're planning on using it for
[19:56] <mgdm> wait, i thought you meant powered off the usb port, backfeeding
[19:56] <mgdm> <-- eejit
[19:57] <penguin42> mgdm: I *do*
[19:57] <penguin42> mgdm: It's a 49 port USB hub
[19:57] <mgdm> penguin42: why not use the micro USB power input with that then?
[19:57] <TheOpenSourcerer> Thanks chaps. Gone for free NoIP ddns. Will attack the cname tomorrow. Need beer now but at least I can now get to my home again...
[19:57] <penguin42> mgdm: Yeh that's what I mean
[19:58] <shauno> backfeeding is squirting voltage in through the regular usb ports the pi has
[19:58] <ali1234> it's powered by micro usb normally anyway
[19:58] <shauno> which when I write it like that, sounds stupid.  but it works!
[19:59] <shauno> eg, the Y cables that come with a lot of harddrives.  put one of the A ends in the pi, the other A end in the power supply, and the tail end in whatever device you're hooking up.  powers both devices off the supply
[20:00] <ali1234> i bet if you check the schematic, all the 5V are just tied together anyway
[20:00] <penguin42> ali1234: That would be a little naughty on USB
[20:00] <shauno> they're not, oddly.  there's some odd catches.  if you send 5v in over the gpio, it bypasses the softfuse on the microusb input
[20:01] <penguin42> powering over GPIO - yeuch
[20:01] <shauno> well, the 5v pin that's on that header, not on a line that's meant for IO
[20:01] <ali1234> i checked it
[20:02] <ali1234> the 5V on the USB port and the GPIO are directly connected
[20:02] <shauno> the microusb port? or the host ports
[20:02] <ali1234> the 5V on the micro USB is also connected but is protected with a polyfuse
[20:02] <mgdm> not sure the GPIO one would handle the power? might have a narrower trace?
[20:03] <penguin42> Thinkgeek have a 24port USB powered hub for $89
[20:03] <penguin42> sorry! $49
[20:03] <ali1234> http://hackaday.com/2012/09/04/problems-powering-raspberry-pi-from-gpio-header/ yes, the gpio trace is too thin
[20:04] <ali1234> penguin42: but how much current can it supply?
[20:04] <shauno> it doesn't say what power on 24 ports though.  pulling 700-750 instead of 500 is going to add up
[20:04] <ali1234> espeically when you power the whole lot on
[20:04] <ali1234> i bet it spikes to like 1.5A
[20:05] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh I'd wonder about that; I'd bet the cambridge guys have a suitable PSU on theirs, I wouldn't bet on that Thinkgeek one - it doesn't say
[20:05] <ali1234> i would just get a proper PSU and make up a splitter cable
[20:06] <shauno> I'd be more optimistic about the cambridge one too, since they describe it for charging, rather than desk-tidying
[20:07] <shauno> I still like my idea of n many motherboard headers on a veroboard.  you'll just need to spine a thicker wire down it rather than hoping the copper doesn't glow
[20:08] <diddledan> https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1455144_10153474192260228_1042663181_n.jpg
[20:08] <shauno> you might even just want perfboard and start off with no copper
[20:08] <diddledan> aparently that's fan art
[20:08] <diddledan> someone dun goof'd
[20:09] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: a pirate, yes
[20:12] <AlanBell> penguin42: yeah, the cambironix stuff is good but £££ as they sell to schools and all real suppliers to schools are super expensive
[20:13] <penguin42> AlanBell: Might be worth pointing them at your project and asking
[20:13] <penguin42> AlanBell: It is overkill as well since you really don't need the actual USB function
[20:13] <AlanBell> http://www.amazon.co.uk/DS-C-Series8-Cambrionix-Series8/dp/B00FJYL67S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1383855078&sr=8-1&keywords=cambrionix
[20:13] <shauno> I figure something like this is going to save a whole lot of work; http://www.ebay.ie/itm/390669595873
[20:14] <AlanBell> how?
[20:15] <AlanBell> I do like the proper 5V psu ali1234 pointed at http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/TDK-Lambda-LS200-5-Chassis-Mount-Power-Supply-51-4227
[20:15] <shauno> well, two rows of 0.1" headers is easy to solder.  and not gonna cost more than 32 regular cables
[20:17] <shauno> assuming you start off with one big 5V source rather than something with 32 usb outlets, you've got to turn that 5V into 32 microusb plugs.  which is going to be messy
[20:19] <AlanBell> lots of USB surface mount sockets
[20:21] <shauno> and 32 usb cables.  that's why I figure the headers will be easier & cheaper :)  but yeah.  backseat driving is easy
[20:21] <penguin42> AlanBell: If you do get that just be a little careful - 40A at 5v would do a bit of damage - e.g. if you have any rings take them off
[20:22] <AlanBell> indeed
[20:22] <AlanBell> shauno: usb cables are cheap
[20:24] <shauno> it's mostly just a lazy option
[20:24] <AlanBell> there are two types of lazyness, pure and applied
[20:24] <shauno> usb sockets bug me.  they don't have a hobbyist-friendly dot pitch - the two datapins are closer together
[20:24] <AlanBell> like maths
[20:25] <AlanBell> applied lazyness is what engineering is all about
[20:25] <diddledan> shauno: try usb3 plugs/sockets - they have weird extra bits
[20:25] <AlanBell> shauno: true, however datapins are not much of an issue, the power pins are the only things we need to wire up
[20:26] <shauno> it still makes them awkward to board
[20:26] <shauno> if you look some up, you'll find spades coming down each side of the socket itself (for structural support & grounding), the outer power pins on one dot pitch, and the inner data pins on a different dotpitch
[20:27] <shauno> which is fair enough if you're going to get a board knocked up for them.  but rules out using spare chunks of perfboard, which I tend to
[20:28] <AlanBell> yeah, the component cost just goes up too
[20:29] <shauno> so it just became a lazy (but not daft) idea based on perfboard & pin headers being the kinda thing I actually have laying around
[20:30] <AlanBell> ok, so pins to microusb does cut out the USB socket problem nicely, yes
[20:31] <AlanBell> putting 40A down a perfboard rail sounds inadvisable
[20:32] <shauno> yeah.  I'm not sure I'd do it in one chunk
[20:33] <shauno> ie, if I was using a PC supply, I'd take the wires intended to run to harddrives, and each one down a block of 8 pins  (running the wire from pin to pin ,rather than using copper traces on the board)
[20:34] <shauno> they tend to have plenty of wires hanging off them, so may as well use them for distribution
[20:34] <novine7> Anyone still here?
[20:34] <MartijnVdS> nah, we're all sleeping
[20:34] <MartijnVdS> Ssssh! :)
[20:34] <novine7> Okay
[20:34] <MartijnVdS> !ask
[20:34] <novine7> I sleep-type
[20:35] <AlanBell> people are talking about 0.5A as stripboard max current, fairly sure it would go higher than that, but that won't do a power rail for lots of pis
[20:36] <diddledan> novine7: are you using a bouncer?
[20:37] <shauno> oh I don't mean using the strips at all.  I'm not sure I'd even want boards with strips, since I don't know how many amps you need to start worrying about jumping to the next trace
[20:37] <diddledan> novine7: I only ask because you didn't part/join and an entire 26 seconds before you asked if anyone was still here someone had said something which kinda indicates that there wasn't
[20:37] <penguin42> AlanBell: http://www.coolerguys.com/840556096177.html
[20:37] <diddledan> wasn't anyone still here**
[20:38] <novine7> what's a bouncer
[20:38] <diddledan> shoudl that be "weren't"?
[20:38] <diddledan> novine7: psybnc is a popular one and the only one I can think of right now
[20:38] <AlanBell> shauno: yeah, I was just curious what stripboard would do
[20:38] <novine7> I just got back to my laptop, wasn't sure how old the messages were
[20:38] <novine7> about sleeptyping: http://xkcd.com/269/
[20:38] <diddledan> novine7: you need to turn on the timestamp :-)
[20:39] <novine7> how to do that in xchat?
[20:39] <shauno> AlanBell: at 30A, it'd probably glow for a short amount of time.  very short.
[20:40] <AlanBell> shauno: it would be pretty though :)
 how do i get a timestamp in xchat?
[20:40] <diddledan> novine7: it's in the settings somewhere
[20:41] <novine7> It's ok, im googling it
[20:41] <shauno> trying to find a picture of the technique I mean.  you pretty much just lay the cable down the pins so it's resting on all of them, and then solder judiciously
[20:42] <novine7> I think it's working now
[20:42] <novine7> yes!
[20:45] <novine7> Fun terminal command: cmatrix
[20:45] <novine7> Even better when you go into a tty console and run it!
[20:46] <shauno> try 'bb' ;)
[20:46] <novine7> what does that do?
[20:46] <MartijnVdS> try 'sl'
[20:46] <novine7> oh yeah, every time i mistype ls!
[20:46] <MartijnVdS> novine7: apt-get install sl
[20:46] <MartijnVdS> novine7: you'll stop mistyping quickly
[20:46] <novine7> No, I already have sl
[20:47] <novine7> i love mistyping.
[20:47] <shauno> bb is another ascii-art demo.  like the matrix one, but with more meat
[20:47] <novine7> I even wrote a script what prints I Like Trains, when WEEEE, then runs sl
[20:48] <novine7> wtf?? running bb now
[20:48] <MartijnVdS> novine7: have you noticed how the train changes based on command-line options?
[20:49] <novine7> i use -a with everything
[20:49] <novine7> BECAUSE I LIKE WATCHING THEM SCREEEAAAAM
[20:50] <novine7> omg space raiders bit is so cool
[20:52] <AlanBell> I wonder what the efficiency of a regular mains to microusb power supply is
[20:53] <novine7> quite bad i imagine
[20:53] <diddledan> 85%?
[20:53] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: send an email to That Crazy Aussie Bloke, ask him if he'll help you design a proper power supply ;)
[20:53] <novine7> still a better effiency than a light bulb
[20:53] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: http://www.eevblog.com/ that one :)
[20:53] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: He's open-source friendly
[20:53] <AlanBell> it can't be that bad because they are mass produced and they don't want them to get hot
[20:55] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: 5V/1A = 5W; 5W / 230V = 0.022A
[20:55] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: measure power use of a wall wart. The further above 0.022A it is, the less efficient it is :)
[20:57] <diddledan> OR the more inefficient it is :-p
[20:57] <AlanBell> yeah, just looking for my power meter
[20:57] <diddledan> swings and roundabouts
[20:57] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: XOR even
[20:57] <shauno> or just find someone who's already put way too much work into such ;)  http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-apple-is.html
[20:57] <diddledan> one man's terrorist is another's patriot
[20:57] <popey> evening
[20:58] <madfish> didn't Southampton Uni already put together a Pi Cluster?
[20:58] <novine7> diddledan: exactly
[20:58] <novine7> evening popey
[20:59] <shauno> I'm really tempted to try this now :(  wondering what learning MPI could actually be useful for
[21:00] <diddledan> I've always preferred SSI clustering, but I think that's just because it was the first one I came across
[21:01] <AlanBell> madfish: yes, and they went with the comedy spider wires for power
[21:01] <AlanBell> http://www.southampton.ac.uk/~sjc/raspberrypi/pi_supercomputer_southampton.htm
[21:02] <penguin42> lego++
[21:04] <madfish> AlanBell: that's the one. Could go for a 12v dc two core wire 'main'(I've 50ft going spare) with 1 5V LDO regulator per Pi
[21:08] <diddledan> someone had to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-_J2po3i0U
[21:09] <AlanBell> heh, good way to slow down your network
[21:10] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: I think there's an openwrt port (either available or in the works)
[21:10] <AlanBell> well it outran his broadband I guess
[21:11] <shauno> I feel kinda dirty now, but 'touch malloc.h' turns out to be a surprisingly easy way to fix a build
[21:11] <penguin42> yeuch
[21:11] <diddledan> I can't imagine a £25 generic computing device would be better at networking than a bespoke £100 dedicated device
[21:11] <penguin42> diddledan: Do you know what's in that #100 dedicated device?
[21:11] <diddledan> shauno:!
[21:11] <diddledan> penguin42: no
[21:12] <AlanBell> especially when dealing with two network cards connected via USB
[21:12] <diddledan> penguin42: it's a mikrotik device that I use
[21:12] <penguin42> diddledan: Probably a similar CPU, there's no special networking hardware in most of them
[21:12] <penguin42> the mikrotik's are probalby a little better
[21:12] <ali1234> soho routers are nearly all mips
[21:13] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: some broadcom SOCs now have ARM in them
[21:13] <shauno> I used a pi as a router for almost a month.  3g dongle->pi->ethernet->regular WAP/router
[21:13] <ali1234> and they have an ethernet switch if they have more than 1 port
[21:13] <ali1234> actually, probably even if they don't
[21:13] <penguin42> ali1234: I think some have two ethers and a switch on one of the ports
[21:14] <ali1234> yes, usually you have wan and then lan to a hw switch
[21:14] <shauno> most switching is done in asics
[21:14] <ali1234> but any or none of that can be exposed of course
[21:14] <MartijnVdS> some routers have hardware offloading for NAT operations now
[21:14] <penguin42> shauno: Not on the low end stuff
[21:14] <MartijnVdS> but unpatched kernels can't use those chips
[21:14] <MartijnVdS> and patches are UG-LAY
[21:14] <MartijnVdS> well those in particular
[21:14] <ali1234> yeah, even in the low end stuff the switch is an asic
[21:15] <penguin42> ali1234: sorry, the L2 stuff? Yeh that's just a switch chip
[21:15] <shauno> especially low end, it's cheaper than a cpu that can handle it
[21:15] <ali1234> you can tell this because the switch still works even if you wipe the cpu firmware with jtag
[21:15] <penguin42> it's actually hard to find ARM chips with >2 network ports
[21:18] <shauno> I'm really tempted to write a malloc.h that just does #include <stdlib.h>.  that'll just silently fix everything(tm)
[21:18] <MartijnVdS> shauno: write a malloc.h that just prints "NO" every time someone tries to malloc
[21:20] <shauno> it's provided by stdlib on osx.  but I keep finding things that just don't allow for that.  I pulled it out of 10 or 12 files before I just got bored and did 'touch malloc.h' in the source root this time
[21:21] <shauno> and honestly, it's a horrible word.  there's only so many times you can put it in a sentence before it feels like a scene from Being John Malkovich
[21:22] <MartijnVdS> shauno: ♫ We all live in a Windows subroutine
[21:22] <novine7> #We all live in a windows subroutine, a windows subroutine, a windows subroutine
[21:23] <ali1234> __stdcall or cdecl?
[21:23] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: livin' la vie d'alloca(3) ?
[21:24] <novine7> so many people joining!
[21:24] <diddledan> c'mon everyone get a grep
[21:24] <novine7> haha very punny
[21:24] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: (Vanilla) Skype Skype Baby
[21:24] <novine7> dun dun dun da doodoodoodooo
[21:25] <shauno> spanish exchange students have ruined that one for me.  they prounce the E.  like skypie
[21:25] <MartijnVdS> shauno: jajaja
[21:25] <novine7> that's german
[21:25] <novine7> spannish is si
[21:25] <diddledan> shauno: pie? as in pi?
[21:25] <MartijnVdS> novine7: "jajaja" is how Spanish speakers write "hahaha"
[21:25] <diddledan> sky-pi?
[21:25] <MartijnVdS> pi in the sky?
[21:26] <shauno> the french do jejeje too.  I sent 'hahaha' in a sms once and got grilled on it.  "what is thees .. khe khe khe?"
[21:26] <MartijnVdS> powering some kind of quadcopter/drone type thing?
[21:26] <MartijnVdS> shauno: kekeke
[21:26] <novine7> MartijnVdS: oh, sorry
[21:26] <shauno> we already have ardupilot for that :)
[21:27] <novine7> BYE BYE
[21:27] <novine7> GOODNIGHT
[21:27] <novine7> BIG BANG THEORY ON NOW
[21:28] <diddledan> o_O
[21:28] <shauno> dobrú noc!
[21:28] <diddledan> I really need to do some work
[21:28] <MartijnVdS> shauno: your UTF-8 is broken
[21:28] <diddledan> works for me
[21:28] <shauno> hm
[21:28] <MartijnVdS> I see a ?
[21:28] <diddledan> MartijnVdS: sure it's not yours?
[21:28] <shauno> you see a y or a u ?
[21:28] <MartijnVdS> diddledan: ☃
[21:29] <MartijnVdS> shauno: I see "dobr<?> noc!"
[21:29] <diddledan> I see dobrú noc
[21:29] <shauno> I was curious what dan sees, there's multiple ways to break utf :)
[21:29] <diddledan> u
[21:29] <diddledan> with a ´above it
[21:29] <MartijnVdS> iso-8859-[wrong X]
[21:29] <MartijnVdS> ?
[21:30] <shauno> sometimes my ú shows as ý :(
[21:30] <diddledan> ergh
[21:30] <diddledan> that's nassy
[21:30] <diddledan> slap it
[21:30] <diddledan> then be a man and complain that slapping is for girls
[21:31] <shauno> (I assume those two worked?  I rarely have an issue with this client)
[21:31] <diddledan> yeah
[21:31] <diddledan> they were fine
[21:32] <shauno> you don't help, you saw it right the first time :p
[21:32] <diddledan> heh
[21:33] <shauno> so it's going wrong somewhere between iterm & screen.  fun
[21:34] <diddledan> not if I'm seeing it correct it's not
[21:35] <diddledan> otherwise how could I see it correctly?
[21:35] <shauno> well, you're special
[21:36] <diddledan> my mum said that to my teachers
[21:36] <shauno> actually, you're on OSX too?  I could be doing something that's broken in a way that OSX understands
[21:36] <shauno> which would allow me to blame my tools, like any good workman
[21:37] <diddledan> erm. but you're typing into iterm through screen onto irssi .. on linux
[21:37] <shauno> I'm typing on osx into iterm on osx onto screen on linux into irssi on linux :)
[21:37] <diddledan> iterm is surely reading osx's keymap and converting it into a linux keymap
[21:38] <shauno> and the only desktop I have to remove this variable, has a broken SLIP config and no UTF at all
[21:38] <shauno> it's not a keymap on a term, you just send characters
[21:38] <diddledan> exactly!
[21:38] <diddledan> and when it gets to the other end you're seeing it correclty
[21:39] <diddledan> if it was broken surely you'd send the right character and then read the wrong one
[21:39] <shauno> what if the characters I'm sending are an osx-fumble?  so they display here and there because we're osx-fumble-compatible
[21:39] <diddledan> my brian hurts
[21:40] <diddledan> in unrelated news, facebook wants me to be an android beta tester
[21:41] <shauno> firing up a VM.  I'm gonna go stick all 3 of me in a channel and have a fiddle
[21:41] <diddledan> kinky
[21:41] <ali1234> actually there's several points in a typical terminal session where random stuff can get translated
[21:41] <ali1234> each one can be enabled or disabled in a variety of interesting combinations that don't make any sense
[21:41] <shauno> I have :utf-8 on in screen & term_charset = = utf-8 in irssi.  and iterm claims its using utf8 too :/
[21:42] <ali1234> it's nowhere near as simple as that
[21:42] <diddledan> what's ssh using?
[21:42] <shauno> it's a start :)
[21:42] <diddledan> and bash on your host
[21:42] <diddledan> and bash on the remote host
[21:43] <shauno> bash is using en_GB.UTF-8, at both ends
[21:43] <ali1234> i have a test app somewhere that tells you exactly what it is receiving
[21:43] <diddledan> fred
[21:43] <shauno> okay, VM foiled .. I have no idea how to type accents in gnome
[21:43] <ali1234> it is usually suprisingly different to what you actually typed
[21:44] <diddledan> I type bert and it comes out as fred
[21:44] <shauno> diddledan: bedtime
[21:44] <diddledan> :-p
[21:44] <diddledan> you do have a point, however
[21:45] <shauno> okay, this is fun.  whatever irssi is using to read characters, and whatever its using to display them, are showing different things
[21:46] <shauno> if I type alt',e I see <?><?> on the input line, but see as I expect in the channel
[21:46] <shauno> if I hit the up cursor to do it again, I then see the correct character in the input line
[21:47] <diddledan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qFT5YJfrmCQ
[21:47] <shauno> MartijnVdS: I'm blaming you for pointing this out.
[21:48] <ali1234> diddledan: oh come on. that's got to be the shortest lecture ever - "they just make it up as they go along. the end"
[21:49] <shauno> they input correct in bash. hm.
[21:49] <shauno> heh .. how do I follow links in gnome-terminal?
[21:49] <diddledan> well the D.REAM bloke thinks otherwise enough to have convinced the beeb to let him make a tv programme
[21:51] <diddledan> perhaps he's spent too long in the quantum world he's got confused between reality and an entangled version of reality that is exactly opposite
[21:51] <shauno> ah moot point, iceweasel won't play video because webvideo hates freedom
[21:51] <diddledan> no way is he 45 tho
[21:52] <diddledan> he's surely about 15
[21:52] <diddledan> he looks about 12, but I'm guessing he looks younger than he really is so is probably about 15
[21:55] <shauno> you'd never know I used gnome for years.  I'm mostly just staring at it thinking ....?
[21:56] <diddledan> shauno: gnome 3?
[21:56] <diddledan> shauno: if so then don't worry it's broken by design
[21:56] <shauno> I want to guess so, since I used to be able to find the version in 2.x (in the Help menu)
[21:57] <shauno> its now a closely-guarded secret
[21:57] <diddledan> the gnome guys took an ok desktop and threw out everything that sort of worked and shoe horned in a load of rubbish nobody knew they wanted and ended up with .. well.. you're looking at it
[21:57] <diddledan> by ok, I mean average
[21:58] <diddledan> aka meh
[21:58] <shauno> and the panel doesn't have a context menu either
[21:58] <diddledan> that's because it's not a panel
[21:58] <diddledan> psyc!
[21:59] <diddledan> as I said, they threw out what sort of worked, and that includes the panels
[21:59] <shauno> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ELFl2_1q7DI/TObn1HnV2fI/AAAAAAAAAaQ/5JkvAtpbv7k/s320/Not_sure_if_serious.jpg
[21:59] <diddledan> lol
[21:59] <ali1234> you want xfce
[22:00] <diddledan> really, he wants anything that isn't gnome
[22:00] <shauno> no no .. what I have isn't gnome
[22:00] <shauno> I wonder if garnome still works
[22:01] <ali1234> nah, you don't want kde
[22:01] <shauno> okay, running gnome-panel in a shell tells me it's already running.  so this is a panel?!
[22:01] <diddledan> a panel by any other name would be as useless
[22:02] <ali1234> hold alt and right click
[22:02] <diddledan> maybe I'm being too harsh?
[22:02] <diddledan> HAH, as if!
[22:02] <shauno> ahhh
[22:05] <shauno> okay, gnome-terminal has an About entry at least, and that's <IP_ADDRESS>.  so it seems this is gnome 3
[22:06] <shauno> I'm not entirely sure why Debian would do this
[22:06] <ali1234> do what?
[22:06] <shauno> replace gnome with this
[22:07] <ali1234> can you just show a screenshot? then i'll tell you exactly what it is
[22:07] <shauno> heh .. good question
[22:07] <diddledan> task: find the screenshot tool
[22:07] <ali1234> you're running it in a vm...
[22:07] <diddledan> time allowed: 15 minutes
[22:08] <diddledan> chances of success: nil
[22:08] <ali1234> in fact making screenshot is easy in gnome 3
[22:08] <ali1234> you just press print screen
[22:08] <ali1234> the hard part is finding where it saved it to
[22:08] <shauno> I'm on a mac.  there's a very pretty speaker where you're expecting a print screen key
[22:08] <diddledan> surely if you can't find it then the cat might still be dead
[22:09] <ali1234> lol silly mac users
[22:09] <diddledan> damn you schrödinger
[22:10] <shauno> http://oneil.me.uk/2013-11-07-220941_1680x1050_scrot.png
[22:11] <shauno> well under 15 minutes.  booyah
[22:11] <ali1234> yeah that's gnome-panel
[22:11] <ali1234> with an incredibly ugly theme
[22:11] <ali1234> and no bottom panel
[22:12] <shauno> I'm surprised there's a theme.  this is quite an old install
[22:12] <shauno> I've been looking for where you change that, but ..
[22:12] <ali1234> gnome-tweak-tool
[22:13] <ali1234> seriously tho, just install xfce, it's better
[22:14] <ali1234> xfce, ubuntu-mono-light icons, orion theme - looks good
[22:14] <ali1234> and droid sans 11
[22:15] <ali1234> oh and lock dpi to 96 with "slight" hinting
[22:16] <ali1234> for some reason my monitor reports resolution:    93x95 dots per inch
[22:17] <ali1234> this is probaly correct but it really messes with the font rendering and makes everything look awful
[22:18] <shauno>   dimensions:    1680x1050 pixels (445x278 millimeters)
[22:18] <shauno>   resolution:    96x96 dots per inch
[22:18] <shauno> nice thing about vmware, it can tell the perfect lies
[22:20] <shauno> I've a feeling I'll get slapped for this, but is there a way to push the icons to the correct side?
[22:20] <ali1234> which icons?
[22:21] <ali1234> like close/minimize?
[22:21] <ali1234> yes: gnome-tweak-tool
[22:21] <ali1234> if you can't do it with gnome-tweak-tool, it cannot be done
[22:21] <ali1234> that's pretty much all you need to know about gnome-panel 3
[22:23] <shauno> hm, I can't find that in gnome-tweak-tool.  or moving the desktop icons to the other side  lol
[22:24] <shauno> it's a bit weird to get used to the fact linux desktops are written for windows users
[22:25] <ali1234> well, it's gconf-editor then
[22:25] <ali1234> seriously though, xfce has proper configuration panels for all this stuff
[22:25] <shauno> which sounds like I'm trying to be a pest, but I know what I mean.  there's a lot of things that only make sense because people are used to them from 'elsewhere'
[22:25] <ali1234> you can even have them in a "settings" menu right on the panel
[22:26] <shauno> oh I'm in xfce now
[22:26] <ali1234> well in that case it's in settings->window manager
[22:27] <shauno> okay, now I look like an idiot.  I was looking in window manager tweaks
[22:27] <ali1234> i don't really know why they are two different panels tbh
[22:28] <shauno> seems it won't right-align desktop icons, but it will turn them off completely, which is just as good
[22:29] <ali1234> yeah i have them turned off
[22:29] <ali1234> i never even see the desktop anyway
[22:30] <shauno> ah, I come from the "maximize button is a running joke" land
[22:31] <shauno> okay, this could work.  and the task switcher is back in the top bar again, which is why I always deleted the bottom panel in gnome2
[22:32] <ali1234> yeah. you can move it of course
[22:32] <shauno> well I usually had it in the top.  and the bottom bar just became some strange exercise in keeping the desktop switcher around
[22:33] <shauno> which is why logging into the desktop and finding the top panel empty just threw me for a loop
[22:33] <ali1234> https://plus.google.com/117474986382867317779/posts/9B1izdYHNwR
[22:35] <ali1234> one thing i particularly love is that the "settings manager"/control panel style thing actually uses xdg .desktop standard correctly, so you can pass it to the menu widget and get the same thing we used to have in gnome, with no extra effort at all
[22:35] <ali1234> unlike the gnome one, which is just a bunch of crazy hacks
[22:38] <shauno> this VM rarely has a screen.  it's normally just ssh -x for things that are just a pain to build on osx
[22:40] <shauno> or just plain broken under osx, like the tool for reprogramming my radio.  for some reason, that keys down transmit and holds it there under osx
[22:41] <ali1234> that's pretty weird
[22:42] <ali1234> and you'd think fixing it would be a priority
[22:42] <shauno> you'd hope
[22:42] <shauno> I haven't looked into it much, because I'm not licenced.  so as soon as the light goes red I pull the cable
[22:42] <ali1234> can't you just unplug the antenna?
[22:43] <ali1234> would that even stop it broadcasting?
[22:43] <shauno> it'd stop it being as effective.  I'm not sure I'd trust it though
[22:44] <ali1234> get some tinfoil...
[22:44] <shauno> ideally you'd just sink it into a dummy load, but so far it's been much easier to just give it to vmware instead
[22:44] <shauno> well, "ideally" it wouldn't do it in the first place, but that's life
[23:27] <penguin42> ali1234: Did you manage to get sutff compiled last night?
[23:27] <ali1234> no.
[23:28] <ali1234> turns out qemu is quite buggy
[23:28] <ali1234> also even with user mode it is probably not going to be faster than a pi
[23:28] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh I said it was marginal; what bugs were you hitting out of interest?
[23:29] <ali1234> basically coreutils configure was still running after half an hour, and then it froze at a specific test every time
[23:29] <ali1234> it's something to do with multithreaded libs and race conditions
[23:29] <ali1234> the linaro qemu claims to have a fix for the exact problem, but it did not help
[23:29] <penguin42> right, yes multithreaded stuff isn't fun
[23:29] <ali1234> coreutils took 2 hours to build on popey's real pi
[23:30] <ali1234> if qemu was still configuring after half an hour i don't expect it would beat that
[23:30] <penguin42> hmm, that depends - the 'configure' stage is slowest in user mode emulation, because you have to start an emulator process for each of the zillions of shell programs configure uses
[23:30] <ali1234> yeah, true
[23:31] <ali1234> but of course, it's the only part you really need to emulate
[23:31] <ali1234> since the actual build can be done with cross compilers
[23:31] <ali1234> i was also moaning about how configure tests the same things over and over pointlessly
[23:32] <ali1234> like, how likely is it that my system doesn't have pipe?
[23:32] <ali1234> and why do you need to test for it three times?
[23:32] <penguin42> yeh I think there is some caching process for configure these days but I can't remember where
[23:32] <penguin42> ali1234: Normally because there are separate configure or package builds
[23:34] <ali1234> no, caching was disabled by default since like 2003
[23:34] <ali1234> too dangerous apparently, because nobody ever uses the same macro names
[23:35] <ali1234> i'm sure all those individual tests for one function could be replaced by having a single flag "this is a sane system"
[23:39] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh a lot of stuff should be included by 'this is a Linux system and it's after 2000'
[23:56] <penguin42> ali1234: But scarily people do still run non-linux systems that are truly odd