[01:39] <coz_> good day all
[10:56] <kwwii> wow, 3 days with like one comment...nto exactly inspring
[10:56] <kwwii> insiring
[10:56] <kwwii> ahhhh
[10:56] <kwwii> inspiring
[10:58] <thorwil> kwwii: hmm?
[11:10] <kwwii> thorwil: just read the log, not too much happening in the last couple of days
[11:10] <kwwii> thorwil: the meeting is today, right? do you know exactly when? I seem to remember 4 but maybe that was UTC :-)
[11:11] <thorwil> kwwii: today, 16:00 UTC
[11:11] <kwwii> thorwil: cool, thanks
[11:12] <thorwil> lunchtime! bbl
[15:59] <j_baer> Hello Martin ;)
[15:59] <kwwii> hi all
[16:08] <j_baer> Doctormo - are you ready to begin?
[16:12]  * kwwii has 20min before I have to leave (cooking dinner, etc.)
[16:12] <thorwil> hi!
[16:13] <j_baer> Ok - I don't know about Doctormo but we can begin.
[16:13] <kwwii> coolo
[16:13] <j_baer> One of the items on the agenda is leadership. I don't know what the concerns are?
[16:14] <kwwii> well, there is my position ;-)
[16:14] <kwwii> I no longer work for canonical, so if they want to appoint someone to lead from their side and everyone accepts that is fine by me
[16:14] <thorwil> j_baer: differences of opinion between you and me, mostly. looks better now than it did when the meeting was planned
[16:14] <j_baer> kwwii: Are you comfortable with how the team is running to today?
[16:15] <j_baer> If not what would you change?
[16:15] <woutervddn> l
[16:15] <kwwii> j_baer: well, I wish it would be more productive :-)
[16:15] <j_baer> kwwii: I share this wish as well.
[16:16] <kwwii> j_baer: important to me is that everyone knows that if I do not work for canonical then I will not be accepting expectations from canonical
[16:16] <ivanka> hi everyone!
[16:16] <vish> o/
[16:16] <kwwii> hi ivanka
[16:16] <ivanka> Hi kwwii
[16:16] <kwwii> my idea is that the artwork team should first be productive in and of itself before taking on tasks which need leadership as such
[16:16] <thorwil> kwwii: how do you see your future role and what do you plan regarding involvement?
[16:17] <j_baer> kwwii: Do you work for Canonical?
[16:17] <kwwii> j_baer: no, I do not
[16:17] <thorwil> j_baer: he used to
[16:17] <thorwil> ended between the last 2 uds
[16:17] <j_baer> All: Then can leadership be shared?
[16:18] <kwwii> thorwil: I see my role as helping coordinate and helping people with specific questions, mentoring, etc...as for my personal involvement, I am in the process of starting a new icon theme
[16:18] <ivanka> Perhaps we could talk about the role of the leader?
[16:18] <kwwii> ivanka: sure, how do you picture that?
[16:18] <ivanka> At UDS we discussed that the artwork team should be running in such a way that the whole community can make better use of it
[16:19] <thorwil> j_baer: yes, but that depends on in how far those who share responsibility tend to agree
[16:19] <ivanka> There was also a request for 'work items'
[16:19] <ivanka> kwwii: ^
[16:19] <vish> j_baer: i dont see the need for a 'shared leadership' just because kwwii no longer works for Canonical
[16:20] <ivanka> And, it seems to me that specific things identified by Canonical should be triaged and picked up in the same way as a request from a loco team, for example
[16:20] <ivanka> For example, thorwil does a brilliant job of representing the defined visual identity pieces in lots of places
[16:20] <thorwil> ty :)
[16:20] <vish> boo!
[16:20] <ivanka> thorwil: np :-)
[16:20] <vish> ;p
[16:21] <ivanka> vish is also brilliant :-)
[16:21] <kwwii> until now, taking wishes (or orders) from canonical has only worked so well
[16:21]  * vish waits for thorwil to boo.. ;)
[16:21] <j_baer> kwwii: IMO the Design Team and the Artwork Team needs to work more closely
[16:21]  * thorwil lets vish wait. hard.
[16:21] <kwwii> and if canonical inteds to lead in this way, then they should just pick a leader - it's not really a community project as such then
[16:21] <ivanka> kwwii: yeah, we talked about that
[16:22] <ivanka> kwwii: I meant that in response the the (orders) bit
[16:22] <j_baer> all: There is risk to a community team - things may not happen as desire
[16:22] <ivanka> kwwii, everyone, I think this has to remain a community team
[16:23] <ivanka> we talked about making more of a presence for it so that we could attract more people
[16:23] <ivanka> and 'service' more projects (like apps) or marketing materials for loco teams and things like that
[16:23] <j_baer> ivanka: Agreed, but there is no reason the two can not work together
[16:23] <kwwii> they one need only to pick a canonical team member to be the access point
[16:23] <kwwii> and either a leader from the community or a council
[16:24] <kwwii> as for me, I do not have to stay in a leadership position, I won't force that on anyone :p
[16:24] <vish> j_baer: IMO, firstly, quality should precede demand for equality …
[16:24] <thorwil> +1
[16:24] <vish> we have not shown quality, yet
[16:24] <ivanka> thorwil: which bit are you +1?
[16:24] <j_baer> vish: Then we need to lead folk to that point
[16:25] <thorwil> " quality should precede demand for equality …"
[16:25] <ivanka> thorwil: thanks :-)
[16:25] <kwwii> I think we need a lot of mentoring to get people up to speed experience and skills wise
[16:25] <ivanka> kwwii: agreed
[16:26] <j_baer> kwwi: Agreed, that is the strength of a community team
[16:26] <ivanka> I think it would be great if there was a leader who could match requests to  people, amongst other things
[16:26] <kwwii> when we started oxygen we were only two artists, but by finding community members interested in learning we expanded our group (by teaching them)
[16:26] <j_baer> ivanka: Matching skill sets is difficult as the membership is changing
[16:26] <thorwil> that has been my thinking, too. there are not enough experienced/trained people, so a real solution has to do something about that
[16:26] <kwwii> ivanka: exactly, as well as inspiring the team and pointing them to new ideas and projects, etc
[16:26] <ivanka> kwwii: so do you think that limiting scope would help grow?
[16:27] <j_baer> ivanka: Limiting scope is limited by what folks are willing to do
[16:28] <ivanka> there have been a couple of requests from community members (like forums and screenshots) that I have forwarded to the list
[16:28] <j_baer> ivanka: how has that worked out?
[16:28] <j_baer> I thought the Ubuntu forums request went well
[16:28] <ivanka> Forums got good help, but for the screenshots piece it needs to be picked up by someone who understands how to connect the dots across the community
[16:28] <ivanka> it is not just a 'design' piece
[16:29] <ivanka> Or it is in the broader context of gathering requirements and making sure all the right people are in the loop
[16:29] <j_baer> ivanka: That is a challenge
[16:29] <ivanka> I would imagine that if someone in a loco team wanted a specific thing made, a banner or such, the current artwork list could handle it very well
[16:29] <kwwii> well, in the end if nobody is interesting in a certain project there is no way to change that
[16:30] <kwwii> so for me, I would say we limit ourselves to the projects which people are willing to work on :-)
[16:30] <ivanka> kwwii: indeed :-)
[16:30] <j_baer> kwwii: Projects like screen shots needs help from the design team
[16:30] <thorwil> i just saw a lack if info what the screenshots site is or isn't. i think that info needs to come from outside the team and none of us should play detective
[16:31] <ivanka> thorwil: agreed
[16:31] <j_baer> thorwil: +1
[16:31] <ivanka> thorwil: that is why I stopped it, sent of a bunch of emails and am trying to be sherlock
[16:31] <kwwii> right
[16:31] <kwwii> again, anything that comes from the design team needs to be led by the design team
[16:31]  * vish mentioned that screenshots is actually a debian site on the bug ivanka filed on day 1, wonder if ivanka reads bug mail ;p
[16:31] <ivanka> so, maybe the leader could say "not enough info, come back later"
[16:31] <thorwil> ivanka: yeah, and why it's our only spec in the "frozen" category
[16:32] <j_baer> ivanka: +1
[16:32] <ivanka> vish: I called that out in the original post
[16:32] <vish> ah.. ok :)
[16:32] <ivanka> From me, in my Canonical position, I want to be in open dialogue about stuff
[16:33] <ivanka> I won't expect anyone to pick up anything they don't want to
[16:33] <j_baer> ivanka: My vision is the Design Team and the Artwork team would share info openly
[16:33] <ivanka> And, I will happily respond to 'not enough information, go away'
[16:34] <ivanka> I have been encouraging people like Yaili and Richard to get involved in the conversations on the list
[16:34] <j_baer> ivanka: For example - you know what we are doing but do we know what the Design Team is doing?
[16:34] <ivanka> But, in my Canonical role, I am only one source of potential projects
[16:34] <kwwii> j_baer: I dont think you can reasonably expect that info to be given
[16:34] <vish> :)
[16:34] <kwwii> unless ivanka says otherwise, naturally
[16:35] <j_baer> kwwii: help me understand
[16:35] <ivanka> j_baer: I get as much as possible put on the design blog and you can find it in bugs
[16:35] <ivanka> j_baer: I have Iain write the 'this week in design' posts
[16:35] <j_baer> ivanka: what is your #1 project?
[16:35] <kwwii> j_baer: I mean that other than the info already in the public space there will be no news
[16:36] <kwwii> j_baer: we cannot expect them to explain everything they do, they'd spend more time explaining than doing
[16:36] <ivanka> thanks kwwii
[16:36] <ivanka> j_baer: I have been trying to increase communications and openess
[16:36] <thorwil> j_baer: there are business interests and there is just not the bandwidth to communicate what a team of full-time workers does
[16:36] <kwwii> np
[16:36] <kwwii> thorwil: exactly
[16:36] <ivanka> j_baer: some of my stuff is really boring like getting designs for job spec documents in canonical
[16:37] <ivanka> Right thorwil
[16:37] <j_baer> ivanka: I understand but a very strong team building emotion is inclusion - folks want to feel included in Ubuntu :)
[16:37] <j_baer> For example: Wallpaper
[16:38] <j_baer> IMO we will see improvement if folks feel this way
[16:38] <j_baer> Look at how well the photo submissions is doing
[16:39] <vish> j_baer: wallpaper is no longer a community task..
[16:39] <vish> afaik.. :)
[16:39] <kwwii> j_baer, everyone: jfyi, every time to the team has attempted a larger project on itself and tried to take direction from canonical it has failed, mainly due to lack of explanation about decisions as well as lack of invovlement in the decision making process. we need to stick to the things we are good at, like the photo contest and other smaller things until we have the resources and structure to accomplish larger tasks
[16:39] <kwwii> whew, that was long
[16:40] <ivanka> kwwii: :-)
[16:40] <thorwil> and good
[16:40] <kwwii> anyway...I have to head out now...time for supper! (and weekend)
[16:40] <thorwil> kwwii: cya and thanks
[16:40] <ivanka> bye kwwii
[16:40] <kwwii> thorwil: np, I'll check in later and read the log
[16:40] <vish> kwwii: bye..  and when you have time, pls update the topic ;)
[16:40] <kwwii> have fun everyone
[16:41] <kwwii> vish: lol, will do
[16:41] <vish> FONTs are available ;p
[16:41] <j_baer> ivanka: Is it possible to have Design Team members and Artwork Team members work together?
[16:41] <ivanka> j_baer: what does that look like to you?
[16:41] <ivanka> where is doctormo today?
[16:42] <j_baer> ivanka: Have the design team lead but accept submissions from the community
[16:42] <j_baer> Don't know?
[16:42] <vish> doctormo: this is your damn meeting!!! hmpf
[16:42] <j_baer> vish: It's ok :)
[16:42] <thorwil> j_baer: didn't go to well for the GDM for ... which release was that again?
[16:42] <kwwii> vish: change it yourself :P
[16:42] <vish> kwwii: thanks.. :)
[16:42] <vish> thorwil: karmic
[16:43] <j_baer> thorwil: Agreed as I was apart that
[16:43] <vish> Until now the team has not shown any proven track record of delivering, so that the Canonical team can bank on us..  and it might be a bit over-reaching to expect them to depend on us..
[16:43] <j_baer> vish: How can we change that?
[16:43] <ivanka> vish, I might not have put it that strongly, but there is a bit of that
[16:43] <ivanka> j_baer: nothing like this happens over night
[16:44] <ivanka> I will continue to put things out there
[16:44] <ivanka> and we will see what works and what doesn't
[16:44] <ivanka> for example
[16:44] <ivanka> the flickr 'new artwork icon' has some really great submissions
[16:44] <ivanka> which  makes me think that the artwork team could make loads more pictograms and stuff
[16:45] <j_baer> ivanka: Thank you - I agree.
[16:45] <thorwil> j_baer: delivering stunning and well thought-out wallpapers for edubuntu and xubuntu should be a good start
[16:45] <vish> j_baer: not sure, but one way is to deliver on what ivanka puts on the table.. or more people doing things out of our own interest like how thorwil updates logos, and stuff..
[16:45] <ivanka> but, on a different note, I don't know if a new logo is as important for the artwork team as defining what the artwork team does
[16:45] <j_baer> thorwil: +1
[16:45] <j_baer> ivanka: +1 Just a tool to get folks involved
[16:46]  * thorwil still wants artwork -> design
[16:46] <ivanka> thorwil: to change names?
[16:46] <thorwil> ivanka: to change name along with mindset
[16:46] <ivanka> kwwii: you still here?
[16:46] <thorwil> and to dissolve the split from ayatana, perhaps
[16:46] <ivanka> I don't know how the politics around that work, I don't know how the community works with a big change like that
[16:46] <j_baer> thorwil: That would be a big change
[16:47] <ivanka> I was thinking on the train this morning that maybe it should be Artwork and Design
[16:47] <vish> ivanka: i had filed a rt request for an art.ubuntu.com site, and they have agreed to assign it, so its ready..  i'v told them to wait for your survey, and whether it should be an art.u.c or a design.u.c
[16:47] <j_baer> ivanka: IMO I would focus on team improvement leading to a name change
[16:47] <ivanka> vish: cool
[16:48] <ivanka> j_baer: again, what does that look like?
[16:48] <j_baer> ivanka: Sorry lost my train of thought.
[16:49] <j_baer> If the Design Team owned the project they could define the spec with suggestions from the team and then open the effort up for submissions.
[16:49] <j_baer> If the submissions were inadequate for forward with internally developed designs
[16:50] <j_baer> Folks would feel they had a chance. :)
[16:50] <thorwil> what if folks thinking they deserve a chance is part of the problem?
[16:51] <j_baer> thorwil: Having a chance is better than no chance.
[16:51] <ivanka> As I have already mentioned, I will continue to put out pieces of work
[16:51] <ivanka> but I am not the only 'customer'
[16:52] <ivanka> This is not *my8 community I am a participant in it
[16:52] <vish> aw :(
[16:52] <j_baer> ivanka: +1 and my concern has always been too much work
[16:52] <vish> we left out ivanka :s
[16:52] <ivanka> vish why :(
[16:52] <vish> j/k ;)
[16:52] <ivanka> vish :-)
[16:53] <ivanka> OK - so give that it is almost 5 on Friday and I have another meeting to go to in 7 minutes
[16:53] <ivanka> what are the conclusions to this?
[16:53] <thorwil> we continue like we started with?
[16:53] <vish> [AGREED] dont depend on doctormo to make it to meetings ! ;)
[16:54] <j_baer> ivanka: Do you agree to be the Design Team point of contact?
[16:54] <thorwil> any opinions on declaring the LibreOffice spec closed?
[16:54] <ivanka> j_baer: yes, I agree to be the design team point of contact
[16:54] <j_baer> ivanka: Thank you
[16:54] <ivanka> j_baer: if you will agree to take some deep breaths before you fill my inbox ;)
[16:55] <vish> +1
[16:55] <j_baer> ivanka: yes :)
[16:55] <ivanka> j_baer: thank you
[16:55] <ivanka> thorwil: what about the spec?
[16:55] <vish> j_baer: i think we should pace things a bit more, rather than having more tasks at the same time..
[16:56] <thorwil> ivanka: it has no content and is out of the scope of the artwork team as i see it
[16:56] <j_baer> vish: I am satisfied with our current list realizing other things may show up
[16:56] <ivanka> thorwil: :-)
[16:57] <thorwil> as in: the specification has to happen inside the LibO project
[16:57] <j_baer> ivanka & vish: Do you need help with paper cuts?
[16:57] <vish> j_baer: sure..
[16:57] <ivanka> thorwil: I agree
[16:58] <j_baer> vish: IMO we need help with this as they may come flying in from all directions
[16:58] <ivanka> thorwil: from what I can tell, invitations can come in but then if people inside the list want to pick it up then they do it under their own steam
[16:58] <thorwil> exactly
[16:58] <ivanka> j_baer: paper cuts has been running and is not an artwork specific project
[16:58] <ivanka> j_baer: there may be a few that are specifically art work required
[16:59] <j_baer> ivanka: Ok
[16:59] <ivanka> vish, what do you think?
[16:59] <vish> ivanka: i cleaned those artwork specific things during the past three cycles :D
[16:59] <thorwil> and vish recently filled an artwork need for the papercuts team in a smooth way. like a ninja!
[16:59] <ivanka> thorwil: heh
[16:59] <j_baer> thorwil: I am concern about the message we may be sending if we close the LibreOffice task
[17:00] <vish> things == bugs
[17:00] <thorwil> j_baer: few people will notice
[17:01] <j_baer> thorwil: But what if they do?
[17:01] <thorwil> j_baer: though, you can add a section for listing projects where we "endorse" getting involved to the spec list
[17:01] <vish> j_baer: what message do you think they would take out of it being closed?
[17:01] <ivanka> thorwil: that is a nice idea - like a cross promotion thing?
[17:02] <ivanka> "people on this team also like doing this sort of stuff"
[17:02] <j_baer> thorwil: +1 I agree the spec should be changed
[17:02] <thorwil> j_baer: it's like a fly shifting a little weight arounds its legs
[17:02] <j_baer> vish: We need to support upstream as best as we can
[17:02] <j_baer> thorwil: +1
[17:02] <ivanka> thorwil, j_baer, vish - I have to go
[17:03] <j_baer> ivanka: Thank you
[17:03] <vish> ivanka: thx, later.. :)
[17:03] <ivanka> bye guys, have a lovely weekend!
[17:03] <thorwil> ivanka: you too, thanks
[17:03] <j_baer> Ok in the time remaining - anything else?
[17:03] <vish> j_baer: i dont see it as dismissing upstream, but do we have the man-power?
[17:04] <vish> to take on the task..
[17:04] <vish> or woman-power.. :D
[17:04] <j_baer> vish: Agree - and things may not happen as it is not a priority for us.
[17:04] <vish> yea..
[17:05] <j_baer> vish: How do you see your role on the team?
[17:05] <vish>  a member of the team..
[17:05] <j_baer> vish: Do you feel comfortable in creating submissions?
[17:05] <thorwil> vish is important for making me fell less lonely in this channel, among other things :)
[17:06] <vish> i was just wondering what thorwil would have done, if i werent here :D
[17:07] <j_baer> vish: :) Ok - do you feel comfortable creating submissions
[17:07] <vish> j_baer: when i find something interesting, i'll gladly do it.. :)
[17:07] <j_baer> vish: I see you as a real talent and your submissions would be great. :)
[17:08] <vish> j_baer: thx.. i'm just lucky at times :D
[17:08] <j_baer> thorwil: thanks for helping with wiki - I know it is distasteful
[17:09] <j_baer> I really hope the fixes can be implemented soon as it is driving me crazy
[17:09] <thorwil> j_baer: np. i'm glad you have been doing most of that work
[17:10] <thorwil> that also makes me think twice before changing something
[17:10] <j_baer> thorwil: can you work your magic with the Edubuntu spec?
[17:10] <j_baer> IMO the Xubuntu spec look great
[17:11] <thorwil> j_baer: i could, but i havn't seen enough willingness and enthusiasm from the edubuntu side
[17:11] <j_baer> thorwil: I'll see if I can help with that :)
[17:12] <thorwil> j_baer: basically i would just repeat most of what i said in the xubuntu case
[17:12] <j_baer> thorwil: +1
[17:12] <j_baer> Ok everyone - I've got to go as well, have a good weekend!
[17:12] <thorwil> in both cases, i would like to have the panels and a window on a transparent ground, so it can be overlayed on wallpaper proposals
[17:13] <thorwil> though in both cases creating the wallpaper first, to then tweak theme colors would be a valid approach, too
[17:13] <thorwil> j_baer: same to you, thanks
[17:15] <thorwil> vish: rather smooth sailing, eh? :)
[17:15] <vish> thorwil: yea.. :)
[17:16] <thorwil> i'm gonna write a summary for the list
[17:16] <vish> cool!
[17:17] <vish> thorwil: btw, how much space would we need for an art.u.c or a design.u.c ?
[17:17] <vish> the sys admins asked that, since we might need to host stuff.. and they need to allot space on the server..
[17:18] <thorwil> woutervddn: noticed you around, but staying quite. how was the luring experience? ;)
[17:18] <vish> or doctormo too..  when he returns..^
[17:18] <thorwil> vish: how would i know? doctormo might be able to make a reasonable estimate
[17:19] <thorwil> vish: i still dream of a neutral design site. unfortunately, my time went *poof* working on other things
[17:19] <kwwii> it would all depend on how large of uploads are allowed and how often the queue is removed
[17:19] <kwwii> :-)
[17:19] <vish> kwwii: yea, any guesstimate?
[17:20] <kwwii> it would be easy to allow people to upload pics which are large and fill up the server
[17:20] <kwwii> vish: not off the top of my head
[17:20] <vish> cool! well decide later :)
[17:20] <vish> we'll
[17:20] <thorwil> queue removed? there should be long time archival (though crap could be kicked out)
[17:20] <kwwii> thorwil: right, mainly I meant the upload queue of pics which are no longer displayed, etc
[17:21]  * thorwil looks at his 60MB wallpaper source files
[17:21] <kwwii> thorwil: ie, I could upload the same pic again and again with different names, versions, etc
[17:52] <doctormo> thorwil: I seem to have gotten myself sick and missed todays meeting :-(
[17:52] <doctormo> Did it happen?
[17:53] <thorwil> doctormo: yes. went well
[17:54] <thorwil> doctormo: you have the complete backlog, right? i'm working on a summary
[17:54] <doctormo> thorwil: No, but it's logged somewhere right?
[17:55] <thorwil> doctormo: get well soon!
[17:56] <thorwil> of course: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/26/%23ubuntu-artwork.html
[17:57] <doctormo> thanks thorwil, I think Ill head back to bed now to read the log on my phone.
[18:08] <doctormo> thorwil: So we didn't get to the meeting agenda other than the first item which wasn't decided.
[18:09] <doctormo> vish: Sorry I wasn't there.
[18:18] <doctormo> thorwil: I'm leaning towards another meeting, although If I could just get the 4 players in the same room at the same time, that would help.
[18:44] <woutervddn> thorwil, only was here for a sec. I went to give blood...
[18:45] <thorwil> doctormo: unlikely to get a decision regarding leadership. chance to talk about grievances was there
[18:46] <doctormo> thorwil: Right, thorwil, j_baer, ivanka and kwwii are the new nucleaus. Hurra,
[18:47] <doctormo> You need to bring about consensus between all four members about what tools to use and processes to use for this cycle.
[18:47] <doctormo> If it's all good, then no work needs doing.
[18:48] <thorwil> it's not all good, but might be good enough for now
[18:48] <doctormo> thorwil: Make sure j_baer is aware of his new status and the requirement for absolute consesnsus in the core oft he project.
[18:53] <thorwil> doctormo: well, ivanka is our contact person and as such a bit of a special case. kwwii i assume will be more like a coach on the sidelines
[18:54] <thorwil> doctormo: short of asking to be made official leader myself, i really didn't know how to clear things up. that's not something i want to do
[19:02] <kwwii> thorwil...I would vote for you as leader :-)
[19:02] <thorwil> kwwii: heh, thanks! :)
[19:04] <thorwil> aside of retaining the ability to drop out for a while when I have to, i should either remain or become convincing with my words and actions on every point
[19:06] <thorwil> also, vish makes snide remarks when he thinks that i think i could just assume that position ;)
[19:07] <woutervddn> I just read the backlog and I must say that there should be more 'learning experience'
[19:11] <thorwil> woutervddn: yes
[19:12] <thorwil> it seems the thought of getting into coding on some free software project to learn and gain experience is much more common
[19:13] <thorwil> than doing likewise with artwork/design, where a mentality of "helping out" seems more prevalent
[19:14] <woutervddn> true, but wouldn't it be possible to have subtile guidings..
[19:15] <thorwil> woutervddn: perhaps. i have been thinking along those lines, but the idea remained all vague, so far
[19:17] <woutervddn> I'm quiet new to the artwork list, but reading that backlog it's like there isn't much coherence in the team..
[19:17] <woutervddn> am I interpreting this right?
[19:18] <thorwil> woutervddn: you could say that. though irc logs don't tend to be a beacon of clarity :)
[19:19] <thorwil> woutervddn: so, are you looking for a learning experience?
[19:19] <woutervddn> true..
[19:19] <woutervddn> and yes..
[19:20] <woutervddn> As far as I know the current projects it seems like logo design is really the biggest thing that the team is doing..
[19:20] <woutervddn> and altough I make artwork for a long time now, but only recently I'm that much into linux that I started using gimp..
[19:20] <kwwii> I would argue that creative work is not as easy to learn for all people as coding is
[19:20] <coz_> woutervddn,  you may also like to get familiar with inkscape as well
[19:20] <woutervddn> and it's kind of a pain to "reteach" how stuff works..
[19:21] <kwwii> a bad artist is a bad artist and everyone can tell a bad one from a distance, whereas a bad coder, if the code somehow works won't be noticed by any user, rather only coders who are better
[19:21] <thorwil> woutervddn: it's been a while since i used photoshopt. if you have specific question regarding gimp (or inkscape) i might be able to help
[19:21] <woutervddn> kwwii: coding isn't simple for all people.. I have VBA now in class, many of my classmates don't understand the logics behind coding..
[19:22] <kwwii> woutervddn: right, but a non-developer would not know the difference as long as the code works
[19:22] <woutervddn> well, I think that I aswell as others just need to feel te boost not to give up on trying..
[19:22] <kwwii> *everyone* has an opinion on artwork
[19:23] <woutervddn> rebooting and doing stuff in windows is far easier then figuring everything out for the first time (again..)
[19:23] <coz_> woutervddn,  that will fade with time
[19:23] <coz_> woutervddn,  I was a die hard photoshop and painter user
[19:24] <woutervddn> kwwii: indeed.. Artwork is a far more complex matter..
[19:24] <kwwii> the thing to do is to somehow figure out how new people could most help the creative effort with their skills *now* while deciding a direction to mentor them to take most benefit from their inherint talent
[19:24] <coz_> mmm
[19:25] <kwwii> woutervddn: take, for example, the fact that the art list has around 200 members at any given time and yet only a handfull of real contributors
[19:25] <woutervddn> true that..
[19:25] <woutervddn> well, artwork has 1 big advantage and disadvantage.
[19:25] <kwwii> it would be interested to see the statistics on one of the dev lists
[19:25] <kwwii> s/interested/interesting
[19:25] <thorwil> i wonder if people would accept training tasks
[19:25] <woutervddn> the fact you can put out "contests" and choose the best..
[19:26] <kwwii> thorwil: yes, they would if they had someone who held their hand and helped them
[19:26] <kwwii> thorwil: that is my experience at least
[19:26] <kwwii> thorwil: my biggest problem when I worked for canonical was that I couldn't really help anyone directly on a project or they would think it was canonical approved and would be in ubuntu
[19:26] <woutervddn> with coding this is harder (impossible) but it makes it possible to help other programmers as with artwork you just make a new artwork and submit it under your own name..
[19:27] <kwwii> or they would at least secretly wish it :p
[19:28] <kwwii> I think there is still a misunderstanding about working on stuff to be included in ubuntu...without careful attention it can go very wrong very fast
[19:29] <coz_> maybe an explanation of how work is chosen to be included would be helpful  so there are no misunderstandings?
[19:29] <kwwii> but hey, now I sound like someone else :p
[19:29] <thorwil> kwwii: do you miss him, too?
[19:30] <coz_> is this troy  you are talking about?? :)
[19:30] <thorwil> nah, Cory
[19:30] <kwwii> thorwil: hehe, I bet we would agree much more often now that it is not my job to play puppet
[19:31] <kwwii> thorwil: lol, no...coz is right
[19:31] <thorwil> oh, dang
[19:32] <thorwil> but the importance of making clear that we don't get to work on the official stuff just so was always Cory's line
[19:32] <kwwii> thorwil: lol, that shows how long you have been around :p
[19:33] <thorwil> kwwii: still green compared to you ;)
[19:33] <kwwii> actually, I would love to have a chat with troy :-)
[19:33] <woutervddn> thorwil, I think that should be something everyone should know..
[19:34] <coz_> kwwii,   I havent spoken with him for some time now
[19:34] <thorwil> woutervddn: it has been on the Artwork wiki page since long and has been brought up on planet ubuntu, too
[19:35] <kwwii> coz_: it must be film-making season :-)
[19:35] <coz_> :)
[19:35] <vish> doctormo: np.. get well soon :)
[19:36] <vish> thorwil: who me? snide ;)  nah.. i was just responding to baer's comment about need for a shared leadership just because someone does not work in Canonical..  if you want to lead.. sure be the leader.. :)
[19:36] <thorwil> woutervddn: i used to point it out in answers to people introducing themselves on the list. the outcome was that none of them ever said much afterwards ... and i was gently asked to tone down the negativity ;)
[19:36] <kwwii> the person who leads should be the one with the skills, experience and time to do it
[19:36] <kwwii> all of those things count, not just one
[19:37] <vish> yup..
[19:37] <kwwii> erm, skills include artwork and people skills
[19:37] <thorwil> it's the time aspect that worries me the most
[19:37] <kwwii> and people skills in this sense are kinda funky compared to what you might imagine
[19:37] <thorwil> my people skills are awesome. it's just that many people never notice or understand that!!!
[19:38] <kwwii> from my past, I can say that canonical has an inherint interest in the artwork team being functional and contribute content
[19:38] <kwwii> but it has been shown again and again that the communication can go very wrong
[19:39] <kwwii> so the person who leads has to be willing to take on all of that, and be able to do the job well
[19:39] <kwwii> (in the other areas I mentioned)
[19:39] <kwwii> thorwil has a very good relationship with canonical and the design team
[19:40] <kwwii> but anyway
[19:41] <kwwii> who wants to hear about my plans for a new icon set? :P
[19:43] <thorwil> kwwii: i edited that out of the summary, to avoid rumors. now be careful, or omgubuntu will reports about plans of a rebel leader to replace the ubuntu icon theme with a new one, of a never seen before style!
[19:43] <vish> thorwil: the only issue i had with baer's flow to the question was: > "so you dont work for canonical" -> "ok , lets have a shared leader"  which seemed a silly reason..
[19:43] <coz_> kwwii,   i would definitly like to hear that :)
[19:44] <thorwil> vish: i read that more as generally questioning the need to have a definitive, single person as leader
[19:45] <woutervddn> now I read this I realize ubuntu is more 'closed' then I thought..
[19:46] <woutervddn> has it always been like that?
[19:46] <thorwil> woutervddn: note that the artwork team had several cycles time to deliver something that would not indicate the need to hire professionals. it didn't
[19:47] <vish> thorwil: well, whoever wants to assume leadership, they just had to have been clearer.. which seemed like what john wanted ,  dint think you were hinting at leadership.. you were being far too subtle with your hints.. ;)
[19:47] <coz_> woutervddn,  you get onto the mailing list and submit work for either  requested art work examples  or submit unrequested work...
[19:48] <kwwii> sorry, popping popcorn for my son, bbiab
[19:48] <thorwil> vish: you missed the part where is stated that i do not want to be made officially appointed leader?
[19:49] <woutervddn> thorwil: so now they have hired professionals..
[19:49] <woutervddn> but in my eyes that shouldn't be the reason the artwork team is kept in the blind of stuff..
[19:50] <vish> thorwil: oh! i'm sleepy, 1:20 am here.. but whatev.. afaik, anyone who wants to be can lead..
[19:50] <coz_> :)
[19:50] <thorwil> woutervddn: you have basically no chance to see your work used as default theme or wallpaper for ubuntu, but at least xubuntu and edubuntu are open in that regard
[19:50] <vish> thorwil: so no snide remarks from me.. i'm just kidding most of the time. ;)
[19:51] <coz_> vish - snide?  no way
[19:51] <thorwil> vish: and here i took your every word serious. every single, all the time!!
[19:52] <vish> you never know ;p
[19:52] <kwwii> woutervddn: you must realize that canonical is a much larger company than you think...they do not just make ubuntu itself and the design team is responsible for all of that
[19:53] <thorwil> woutervddn: http://design.canonical.com/ improved matters quite a bit
[19:53] <kwwii> naturally, as an IT company trying to make money they cannot tell everyone all of their plans for everything
[19:53] <kwwii> people seem to be a but utopian in that respect
[19:54] <woutervddn> thorwil & kwwii, in that case I think canonical should reconsider what ubuntu stands for... cause hearing this the 'ubuntu circle of friends' isn't really showing..
[19:54] <kwwii> hrm, what is a good icon project name? opensourceicons?
[19:54] <thorwil> bah
[19:54] <kwwii> woutervddn: if you tried to develop a new app for ubuntu there is also no promise it will be accepted
[19:54] <thorwil> kwwiicons
[19:54] <kwwii> thorwil: ahhh, yes!
[19:55] <kwwii> kwwii's icon point
[19:55] <coz_> just dont abbreviate that to "kicons"
[19:55] <kwwii> kde stands for ken's desktop environment
[19:55] <coz_> kwwicons
[19:55] <vish> lol!!!
[19:55] <coz_> I like that
[19:55] <coz_> kwwii,  :)
[19:56] <woutervddn> kwwii at one side that's a good thing, in that way no junk apps enter ubuntu like the sh*tload of worthless apps for windows..
[19:56] <kwwii> real kde devs think there is a K-ernel
[19:56] <kwwii> woutervddn: well, you can still get all the crap apps you want in linux
[19:56] <kwwii> for free!
[19:56] <kwwii> kwwicons it is
[19:57] <woutervddn> :p yeah, but not as much in the softwarecentre.
[19:58] <woutervddn> all in all ubuntu did make a huge leap with the 10.04, but if they want to do all design/artwork themselves they shouldn't allow an artwork team..
[19:59] <thorwil> woutervddn: they do not want to make it all themselves
[20:00] <thorwil> but they do want to have utmost control over the default theme and wallpaper
[20:00] <woutervddn> then why you say your work doesn't make a change to be included in an official release..
[20:00] <kwwii> coz_: so on the icon front, I am planning on making a high quality gray scale icon set which is easily recolorable, adding code as necessary to make it all work...think lots of code
[20:01] <thorwil> woutervddn: i did not say "included". i said default. as in: the stuff you see after install
[20:01] <woutervddn> true..
[20:01] <coz_> kwwii,  oooo I like the greyscale idea
[20:01] <kwwii> coz_: I want to make an icon set which scales and renders as nicely as a font
[20:01] <thorwil> not to forget during install
[20:01] <kwwii> it hinting, etc
[20:01] <kwwii> s/it/ie
[20:02] <woutervddn> thorwil: but which designer would want to make stuff if they don't get recognition for it..
[20:02] <thorwil> kwwii: now that is a concept. glad it won't be yet another *
[20:02] <coz_> kwwii,   so mainly svg I take it?
[20:02] <kwwii> thorwil: I would not waste my time to work on something which is just the same thing again
[20:03] <kwwii> also, it is kinda a work thing
[20:04] <thorwil> kwwii: wie konnte ich an dir zweifeln? :)
[20:04] <coz_> :)
[20:05] <kwwii> thorwil: n'ja, ich habe angst gehabt das ich dir in Dallas zumindest ein bißchen shockiert habe :p
[20:06] <kwwii> lol, bad half english spelling
[20:07] <kwwii> schockiert, ein c zu wenig
[20:08] <woutervddn> lol don't say you guys are germans?
[20:08] <vish> woutervddn: kwwii is a pretend german ;p
[20:08] <woutervddn> ow.. :p
[20:08] <woutervddn> and thorwil?
[20:09] <vish> thorwil is thorwil ;)
[20:09] <woutervddn> mijn duits is niet zo goed, maar ik spreek nederlands..
[20:10] <kwwii> woutervddn: I am us american but I have lived in germany for 15 years
[20:10] <vish> i would have learnt german in highschool, but missed out and continued with french :/
[20:10] <woutervddn> ow..
[20:11] <kwwii> well, I live in oberfranken which is not quite Germany :p
[20:11] <vish> and now i forgot most of french too :(
[20:11] <coz_> :)
[20:11] <woutervddn> le francais et un langue terrible ausi!
[20:12] <zniavre_> :o)
[20:12] <woutervddn> being a semi linguistic is what you get from living in a country the size of a wallnut, with 3 official languages (english isn't one of them..)
[20:12] <daker> woutervddn, le français est une langue terrible :)
[20:12] <woutervddn> :p ssst daker :p
[20:13] <woutervddn> worst of all! the country doesn't even have a goverment, but that's okay since we have 3 or 4 goverments.. -_-'
[20:14] <woutervddn> first one to guess the country gets a free picture of manneke pis..
[20:19] <daker> vish, i can give you french courses :)
[20:20] <vish> oh oh!
[20:20] <woutervddn> xD
[20:21] <thorwil> that sounds so wrong
[20:21] <vish> thorwil: you and your dirty mind ;p
[20:21] <woutervddn> xD
[20:22] <woutervddn> lol I should start learning french to.. halve of my country speaks it, I hear it every day but I can't make 10 sentences without errors in them..
[20:22] <vish> daker: that would be nice at some point.. really silly of me forgetting a language … after highschool dint have much daily use and forgot it.
[20:22] <woutervddn> vish: you can't keep up with a language if you're not using it on a regular bases..
[20:23] <vish> yea..
[20:26] <daker> vish, 1ex : Conjuguer le verbe être au présent de l'indicatif :D
[20:27] <vish> daker: oh not at 2AM! ;p
[20:27] <woutervddn> suis, es, est, sommes, êtes, sont?
[20:27] <daker> woutervddn, 10/10
[20:27] <vish> daker: ^^
[20:27] <woutervddn> wopaaaah!
[20:28] <woutervddn> even the ^'s and the ',`'s?
[20:28] <kwwii> vish: you are a doctor, I imagine you can stay up all night
[20:29] <kwwii> vish: although that was proved wrong in belgium, wasn't it? :P
[20:29] <vish> hehe :)
[20:29] <vish> belgium is like Las Vegas ;p
[20:29] <vish> what happens in belgium stays in belgium ;)
[20:30] <woutervddn> kwwii gets the manneke pis photo but, what about belgium :p
[20:31] <woutervddn> and vish.. in which weird parrallel universe does belgium reminds you of las vegas? :p
[20:31] <kwwii> vish: hehe, indeed!
[20:31] <kwwii> I know I left a few things there myself :-)
[20:31] <vish> woutervddn: all the same crazy stuff happens there too ;)
[20:31] <woutervddn> *-) like..
[20:32] <vish> kwwii: Orlando was not fun without you there ;)
[20:32] <kwwii> extra if you are staying at a hotel in the middle of the forest with extremely expensive alcohol
[20:32] <woutervddn> xD lol.. belgian alcohol?
[20:32] <kwwii> vish: trust me, after 10 UDS's you can have the rest
[20:32] <vish> ha!
[20:33] <kwwii> woutervddn: INDEED
[20:33] <woutervddn> lol, you tried our beers?
[20:33] <kwwii> 12 years of making linux desktops for money and you would think I would be sick of it
[20:33] <woutervddn> which city where you at?
[20:33] <kwwii> woutervddn: oh yes, at length
[20:33] <kwwii> woutervddn: we were outside brussels
[20:34] <woutervddn> leuven?
[20:34] <kwwii> at an ex-ibm training center turned into hotel
[20:35] <woutervddn> Hotel Dolce La Hulpe Brussels**** ?
[20:35] <kwwii> La Hulpe
[20:36] <kwwii> exactly
[20:36] <kwwii> you are quicker at google-ing than I
[20:36] <kwwii> ibm or intel, not sure which
[20:36] <woutervddn> lol.. IBM
[20:36] <kwwii> something with an I, I think
[20:36] <woutervddn> it's a 30 minute drive from where I live :p
[20:37] <kwwii> lol
[20:37] <kwwii> it is 30min drive from anywhere
[20:37] <kwwii> and a gin-tonic costed like 12€
[20:38] <woutervddn> xD not true.. currently I study at the outer end of belgium (hasselt) and it takes me a whole hour to get at hulpe!
[20:38] <kwwii> I spent like 400€, although I was there for two weeks and had pay for my own dinner for the first week
[20:38] <kwwii> woutervddn: lol, sounds like belgium isn't very heavily settled
[20:39] <kwwii> I spent another week in brussels a week after that
[20:39] <woutervddn> lol, no just to many traffic..
[20:39] <kwwii> we stayed in a hotel in a part of brussels that we probably should not have been staying in
[20:39] <woutervddn> so you went to see the little guy that's peeing..our grand statue -_-'
[20:39] <kwwii> it was really funky
[20:40] <woutervddn> (or you guys just stayed inside of the hotel and were drunk from morning till evening?)
[20:41] <kwwii> I liked my weekend trip to Brugge the best
[20:41] <kwwii> woutervddn: no, no...from 9-6 is work at UDS, trust me
[20:41] <kwwii> hard-core
[20:41] <woutervddn> lol, I never got what people like about brugge :p
[20:41] <kwwii> lol
[20:41] <woutervddn> ow, being druk was from 6 till 9? :p
[20:42] <kwwii> years ago, yes
[20:42] <kwwii> in the meantime things are very civilized
[20:42] <woutervddn> where do you live now kwwii?
[20:42] <kwwii> bamberg germany, basically
[20:42] <kwwii> hallstadt, outside of bamberg really
[20:43] <woutervddn> ow.. so you know about belgiums big problems :p
[20:43] <kwwii> I think part of the attraction of Brugge for me was at least half understanding what people said
[20:44] <kwwii> my french is pretty poor and the french they spoke in La Hulpe what nothing near what I was used to
[20:44] <woutervddn> xD lol..
[20:44] <woutervddn> the whole upper half of belgium speaks dutch :p
[20:44] <kwwii> indeed :-)
[20:45] <kwwii> readable for a german, basically
[20:45] <woutervddn> I think the same about german.. xD
[20:45] <woutervddn> but speaking it hard though..
[20:45] <kwwii> well, if you take english and german and mix things a bit..learn how to make a scccchhhhhllllk and other sounds
[20:45] <kwwii> :p
[20:46] <kwwii> no doubt, speaking is the hard part
[20:46] <kwwii> although often I think it sounds like german words pronouned by an american
[20:46] <thorwil> heh
[20:46] <kwwii> trying to fake a bad dutch accent
[20:46] <kwwii> or maybe that it just how I sound!
[20:47] <kwwii> lol
[20:47] <kwwii> circular logic
[20:47] <woutervddn> xD
[20:48] <kwwii> for some reason, I found the dutch accent in belgium much easier to understand than say, amsterdam
[20:49] <kwwii> although everyone in amerstdam just speaks english to me if I don't try to act like a german :p
[20:49] <woutervddn> xD
[20:50] <woutervddn> you don't want to know how hard the ubuntu loco team of belgian is to coördinate, I'm glad it's not something I must do :p
[20:50] <woutervddn> but everything has to be translated to french, dutch and german.. so the irc meetings are all english.. :p
[20:56] <kwwii> woutervddn: I can imagine
[20:56] <woutervddn> ah well.. atleast we are the only stable country that can keep functioning for over a year without a goverment..
[20:57] <kwwii> LOL, no doubt..it doesn't seem to upset anyone
[20:57] <woutervddn> xD it does.. investors are calling us the new ireland.. :p
[20:57] <kwwii> then again, after staying in brussels I realize how much belgium has undergone in the process of creating the EU


[01:29] <players21> anyway to add the software browser from ubuntu to lubuntu?
[01:29] <oerheks> you mean gnome-software?
[01:30] <oerheks> you can, i would install synaptic, more detailed softwarecenter
[01:30] <oerheks> !info synaptic
[01:30] <oerheks> !info gnome-software
 We have muon which is similar to synaptic.
 We also have Discover.
 This message made me think about a thing. I wanted to use Ubuntu Software Center in Lubuntu but it isn't in official repositories of Lubuntu. Why isn't it there? (re @kc2bez: We also have Discover.)
 I don't understand. Lubuntu is Ubuntu. They use the same repositories. (re @UnrealNinjaMark: This message made me think about a thing. I wanted to use Ubuntu Software Center in Lubuntu but it isn't in official repositories of Lubuntu. Why isn't it there? Asking just for curiousity)
 sudo apt-get install software-center (re @UnrealNinjaMark: This message made me think about a thing. I wanted to use Ubuntu Software Center in Lubuntu but it isn't in official repositories of Lubuntu. Why isn't it there? Asking just for curiousity)
[14:04] <Maik> don't forget that Ubuntu Software Center is a snap package and basically the Snap Store
 https://linuxx.info/how-to-install-ubuntu-software-center/
 Is snap now?
[14:05] <Maik> at least it is in Ubuntu 21.10
[14:05] <Maik> yep, it is afaik
 Ah ok. Thanks y'all for the replies!


[02:55] <ScottL> holstein, and ailo , dickmacinnis emailed me about artwork and possibly being art director
[02:55] <holstein> cool
[02:55] <holstein> that would great right?
[02:55] <holstein> has anyone seen the dreamlinux desktop?
[02:56] <ScottL> he sent me some images of stuff he has been working on along with links to other works he's done
[02:56] <ScottL> it seems to be a good move, but a few items probably need to be hashed out to make sure expectations are understood on both sides :)
[02:57] <ScottL> for example, i don't think either side would be very happy if he only desired to make ubuntu studio look like dream linux
[02:58] <ScottL> i was also going to blog about needed artists and an art director tomorrow, i'd like to see what kind of response i get
[02:59] <ScottL> my last blog post got over 1,000 hits over three days
[02:59] <holstein> yeah :)
[02:59]  * ScottL shakes his head and is amazed at that
[02:59] <holstein> i saw some link-backs
[02:59] <ScottL> really?  like what?
[02:59] <holstein> twitter?
[02:59] <holstein> somewhere like that
[02:59] <holstein> several
[03:01] <ScottL> it's good though, my goal was to get onto planet ubuntu so ubuntu studio would get publicity...well, we seem to have it :P
[03:02] <ScottL> but sometimes i just stand back and wonder about it though...i'm nothing special really, why do people click on it?
[03:02] <holstein> yup
[03:02] <holstein> i got #ubuntustudio
[03:02] <holstein> in tweetdeck
[03:02] <holstein> lots of non-english buzz actually
[03:02] <holstein> not sure if its positive ;)
[03:06] <ScottL> lol
[03:06] <ScottL> i also mentioned to dick macinnis about pushing some of his changes "upstream" to us as persia suggested
[03:07] <ScottL> i still want to email some of distros about it as well though
[03:07] <ScottL> or someone else could as well ;)
[03:17] <persia> ScottL: I'm a little confused about the combination of "dickmacinnis emailed me about artwork and possibly being art director" and i don't think either side would be very happy if he only desired to make ubuntu studio look like dream linux""
[03:18] <persia> I may not have background, but presuming that dreamlinux is the expression of dickmacinnis' art, if you appointed him art director, I'm unsure why you would want to limit his expression.
[03:19] <persia> I'd also hope he might do more, if there are useful patches as derivative, etc., but I'm just not sure that the idea of delegating authority over some area is compatible with restricting the application of that authority
[03:22] <ScottL> persia, i think if he wanted to make ubuntu studio look like dream-linux in a wholesale manner that would not be optimal
[03:23] <ScottL> and i think there should be some restrictions
[03:23] <persia> Ah.  You critique the method, rather than the expression.  I'm wholeheartedly behind that :)
[03:23] <persia> I just misunderstood.
[03:24] <ScottL> we do have some branding for consideration and a pink, pretty pony theme probably wouldn't follow it :P
[03:25] <holstein> i really like KXstudio
[03:25] <holstein> i think it looks slick
[03:25] <persia> OK.  I just get worried easily when I see potential conflicts, and strongly believe in delegation.
[03:25] <holstein> id like to see dreamstudio
[03:26] <holstein> and see where it is 'out of the box'
[03:26]  * persia wonders if the KXStudio themes can be brought into Ubuntu as a selectable choice for users.
[03:26] <holstein> i dont think so
[03:27] <holstein> maybe some of it
[03:27] <holstein> we can ask
[03:27] <holstein> persia: thats a great idea
[03:27] <holstein> some of our own theme options
[03:27] <holstein> in addition to an awesome one out of the box
[03:31] <persia> Maybe ask falktx when he's around.
[03:32] <persia> I know there are several folk who prefer KDE and run our application stack, and if someone is willing to do the work to make this look nice, I think we ought to show off their stuff.
[03:37] <ScottL> holstein, persia:  i bet if we talked to falktx he would be willing to try to work to get his theme into ubuntu studio
[03:37] <ScottL> i don't know if it being developed for kde will have any problems
[03:37] <persia> Oughtn't: Ubuntu has a complete KDE stack.
[03:38] <persia> I'm not sure if can go on the DVD without making it hugely bloated, but that's a separate issue.
[03:38] <persia> If nothing else, it ought be available as a post-install option
[03:38] <holstein> we should check
[03:38] <ScottL> but i had also considered this avenue for dick as well, making dream linux theme installed and available as an option
[03:38] <holstein> it might actually be lean
[03:38] <holstein> somewhat lean
[03:39] <persia> I'm entirely in favour of bringing extra packages into Ubuntu, especially themes and similar, if someone wants to maintain them.
[03:40] <persia> There's no real downside, because the packages don't have to be in place by default (unless some flavour manager chooses them), and there's a potentially unlimited upside as the creator becomes more familiar with working directly in Ubuntu rather than outside Ubuntu.
[03:51] <ScottL> persia, one thing i mentioned to dick was that there would probably be collaboration between me and perhaps one/two others with the art director just to develop an art direction
[03:52] <ScottL> and maybe a spec if other artists are involved
[03:52] <ScottL> do you think that is too strong?
[03:52] <persia> I think that's fine.  The more specificity you can add to the semantics of "art director" in the context of Ubuntu Studio, the less chance there is for assumptions to cause misunderstanding.
[03:54] <persia> For instance, if you indicate that you expect the overall direction to be established by a committee including flavour leadership, the branding team, and the art team, with the "art director" being expected to execute that strategy it is likely to be interpreted differently than an indication that the "art director" is responsible for specifying and promoting a consistent direction for artwork to be included in Ubuntu Studio.
[03:55] <persia> There are likely hundreds of other definitions of "art director" available: reducing confusion is largely a matter of ensuring that all parties have a shared understanding of the semantic value of the terms.
[03:56] <ScottL> he's already responded to my email and seems quite enthusiastic
[03:56] <persia> Excellent!
[03:56] <ScottL> after visiting his websites, listening to some of his music, and watching some of his video, i come away feeling that he is a rather creative individual :)
[08:28]  * abogani waves all
[08:28] <abogani> ailo: Do you have rtirq installed?
[12:17] <ailo> abogani: I uninstalled rtirq, and that did change the value, but not much http://paste.ubuntu.com/570549/
[12:18] <ailo> ScottL: Uninstalling rtirq-init does not uninstall it at all. It should not be a dependency to any UbuntuStudio meta's since it is meant to be used with -rt kernels.
[12:19] <ailo> I had to remove the rtirq-init files manully
[12:20] <ailo> manually* from: /etc/init.d/rtirq /etc/rc*/*rtirq and /etc/default/rtirq
[12:35] <abogani> ailo: I have some doubts: 50 is a suspicious value.
[12:36] <ailo> abogani: Doubts about the rtirq? I also have rtkit installed, which is a dependency of pulseaudio
[12:36] <abogani> Thoese are the reason why I don't like rtirq, rtkit and similar tools...
[12:38] <persia> abogani: What do you prefer?
[12:45] <abogani> persia: No one in particular as long as only one is installed at time.
[12:46] <persia> Ah, so the issue is using *multiple* tools, not any of the specific tools.
[13:20] <abogani> ailo: ping
[13:24] <ailo> abogani: pong
[13:26] <abogani> about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime
[13:26] <abogani> Could you confirm me that -1- don't suffer of the problem (that is the latency grows from 2.9 to 5.8)?
[13:27] <abogani> Sorry I mean -1-lowlatency
[13:27]  * abogani is about to disable RT_GROUP_SCHED again
[13:28] <ailo> abogani: I will do some testing. I'll get back on that tomorrow, then.
[13:28] <abogani> ailo: Thank you _very_ much.
[13:30] <ailo> abogani: Isn't it strange still, that a wireless card has those numbers?
[13:33] <abogani> ailo: Yeah. Upstream is already working on it.
[13:46] <ailo> ScottL: So, we have a new guy aboard with the art bit?
[14:53] <ailo> abogani: I still have xruns, very rarely, but I cannot say if this would have happened before as well.
[14:53] <ailo> Because I didn't do enough testing before
[14:54] <ailo> I should try the older kernel to see if I can get xruns at all from that (2.6.37
[15:00] <abogani> ailo: Yes If you want
[15:12] <ailo_> paultag: I'm a bit slow on progress, but I will be able to finish the functionality of the program today (some hours later from now). Because I am using subprocess.call(command), I will need to do all of the commands as shell commands like: gksudo -kA "sh -c 'command1; command2; command3'", which is not a problem. I will also need to use shell commands to replace text in audio.conf. If you see no problem with that, I will pr
[15:12] <ailo_> oceed to implement it.
[15:17] <ailo_> scott-work: I would appreciate to have some input on what text to add to the -controls program. If you like, you can do all the editing on that. My English is not perfect.
[15:54] <scott-work> ailo_:  until now i hadn't considered that english wasn't your primary language
[15:54]  * scott-work is presuming that it is not from your previous statement
[15:56] <ailo_> scott-work: English is in fact my third language, though I consider it my working language nowadays. Swedish and Finnish are what I grew up with.
[16:21]  * abogani has just updated the -lowlatency kernel...
[16:33] <ailo> scott-work: I'm hoping to have a finished program evening time your time. It needs to be tested and the text needs to be edited. Someone needs to package it as well. I know a little bit about that, and we do have the original -controls to use as an example as well.
[16:33] <ailo> As an example for packaging, I mean
[16:34] <paultag> ailo: I can package, I maintain fluxbox :)
[16:34] <paultag> co-maintain * I gues
[16:34] <paultag> ailo: and that's great news! :)
[16:36] <ailo> paultag: Allright. I'll ping you when the code is done. We still need to update the code after the text has been edited, though.
[16:36] <paultag> ailo: no problem
[16:36] <paultag> ailo: we're 1 hour from done on the code
[16:36] <scott-work> paultag: ailo: if we plan to get this into natty we probably should just update the existing -control package then
[16:37] <scott-work> after it's tested we can make a debdiff and get the patch into the repos
[16:37] <paultag> scott-work: aye, but standards change, I'll have to ensure it's up to spec
[16:38] <paultag> scott-work: we have to be careful with a debdiff, might want to keep it in vcs and upload a dsc :)
[16:39] <paultag> I never liked debdiff for anything but checking changes :)
[16:40] <scott-work> paultag: i freely admit that i'm still rather ignorant about some of the processes around getting changes into the repos and will defer to your experience :)
[16:40] <paultag> scott-work: I'm green as well :)
[16:40] <paultag> scott-work: how's your day?
[16:41] <paultag> ailo: you as well, how are you today?
[16:53] <scott-work> paultag: i'm going home from a migrane in a few minutes :/
[16:54] <paultag> scott-work: aw shit.
[16:54] <paultag> scott-work: I get migranes daily
[16:54] <paultag> it sucks ass
[16:55] <ailo> I'm fine, just have to go over to a friend and help him with his Windows installation for his parents. He had Ubuntu on it, but he doesn't dare to keep it.  - "See ya".
[16:56] <paultag> ailo: cheers!
[20:08] <scott-upstairs> abogani, ping


[04:54] <hallyn> mdeslaur: but development release is not available there.  ok to complicate that logic with a special case?
[04:55] <hallyn> slangasek: originally he thought it was a race condition, but he has deeper issues
[05:54] <pitti> Good morning
[06:00] <pitti> slangasek: I don't know about urfkill, I'm afraid; but I'm surprised that we need it, I thought network-manager would already handle these
[06:00] <pitti> slangasek: but I guess it can be changed to be inert when n-m is running, similar to e. g. the powerbutton script of acpi-support?
[06:02] <slangasek> pitti: eh, network-manager is entirely the wrong layer to handle these keys
[06:02] <slangasek> because they are intended to control all antennas, not just wifi
[06:03] <slangasek> n-m is not what handles the thinkpad antenna key at all, for instance; acpi-support does that currently
[06:04] <pitti> slangasek: ah, I see; so that's generally the Fn+Something soft switch?
[06:04] <slangasek> yep
[06:05] <pitti> I certainly remember quite a lot of bug reports which say that the key is not working on a particular model
[06:05] <pitti> usually in udev bugs which send the wrong key code, but even when fixing it it doesn't seem to work sometimes
[06:05] <pitti> so maybe urfkill will work better with those than acpi-support
[06:06] <slangasek> yes, because acpi-support only handles acpi events, not keys
[06:06] <pitti> that would certainly explain it
[06:07] <pitti> could we move the config files to /lib/ or /usr/share somewhere?
[06:07] <slangasek> if you wish? :)
[06:08] <pitti> slangasek: as you were concerned that they aren't really conffiles
[06:08] <slangasek> I was mostly concerned about it being a possible sign that the code wasn't mature enough to DTRT
[06:09] <slangasek> but then I found the per-vendor files which showed that to not be an issue
[06:09] <slangasek> so I'm not worried about moving them, but I think it would be legitimate to do so
[06:12] <pitti> installed the package now; the two per-vendor conffiles look rather harmless
[07:12] <TheMuso> doko_: Ok I just confirmed that java-atk-wrapper can be used as a drop-in replacement for java-access-bridge. I have a local copy of the openjdk-6 packaging branch with the needed changes, shall I push and upload, or would you like to have a look first? (Note I have also merged your most recent upload).
[07:32] <pitti> TheMuso: we also need it for openjdk-7, right?
[07:38] <rickspencer3> hey all ... daily images today looking good:
[07:38] <rickspencer3> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20ISO%20Testing%20Dashboard/view/Daily/?
[07:41]  * SpamapS looks on in awe of the awe-tomation awesomeness
[07:53] <pitti> libo i386 built yesterday, so today's images should be a little less oversized, too
[07:54] <dholbach> good morning
[07:54] <pitti> hey dholbach
[07:54] <nigelb> Hey dholbach, pitti :)
[07:55] <dholbach> hey pitti
[07:55] <pitti> nigelb: good morning
[07:55] <dholbach> hey nigelb :)
[07:56] <TheMuso> pitti: Oh yeah, we do.
[07:57] <TheMuso> pitti: Although that is in universe.
[07:57] <pitti> TheMuso: ah, I wasn't sure whether we'll use that by default in precise eventually
[09:09] <pitti> @pilot in
[09:10] <pitti> argh, 72 items? seems we never quite get down to a sane number..
[09:27] <seb128> pitti, that's 3 weeks of no piloting and a rally for you ;-)
[09:28] <seb128> pitti, there was no piloting scheduled between mid-decembre and the rally
[09:28] <bkerensa> pitti: I found out what was causing the conflicts in my requested merge for snort can I just re-request? Please :)
[09:28]  * bkerensa also forwarded upstream
[09:33] <pitti> bkerensa: as you prefer, but updateing the debdiff on the bug might be easier
[09:36] <cjwatson> pitti: I was curious over the weekend if there was a particular reason there aren't python3-problem-report and python3-apport packages yet, despite the apport tests passing with Python 3
[09:37] <pitti> cjwatson: I actually fixed quite a lot of the apport.* modules, but problem_report is particularly broken with python 3 stil
[09:37] <cjwatson> ah
[09:37] <cjwatson> the tests didn't seem to show that?
[09:38] <cjwatson> maybe I missed something
[09:38] <pitti> I need to make up my mind what makes more sense to store in Report objects: always byte arrays (more flexible, but doens't work well with real strings), always utf8 (need to be more careful with logs, etc.), or mix (too confusing)
[09:38] <pitti> python3 problem_report.py -v
[09:38] <cjwatson> (hmm, also https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-p-python-versions seems to say that apport's in update-manager's dependency chain but I don't see it there)
[09:38] <pitti> fails all over the place
[09:39] <cjwatson> ah, ye
[09:39] <cjwatson> s
[09:39] <pitti> you can run the whole suite with PYTHON=python3 test/run, FYI
[09:39] <cjwatson> I thought I did, must have missed that
[09:39] <pitti> cjwatson: I think I can make the whole thing work for python 3, but I didn't put urgency into this as we are missing python3-launchpadlib
[09:39] <cjwatson> oh, I just ran python3 test/python, that was why
[09:39] <cjwatson> pitti: yeah, barry and I are working on that
[09:42] <pitti> I think I fixed pretty much all the imports etc., the remaining bits are all str vs. bytearray problems
[09:45] <l3on> pitti, agda needs a rebuild too
[09:45] <l3on> :)
[09:45] <l3on> Package: agda-mode
[09:45] <l3on> Version: 2.2.10-4build1
[09:45] <l3on> Missing: libghc-agda-dev (< 2.2.10-4build1.1~)
[09:45] <\sh> could it be that something broke libreoffice? eventually the last openjdk upload?
[09:46] <l3on> after rebuild libghc-agda-dev (<< 2.3.0-1build2.1~)
[09:50] <pitti> hey l3on
[09:50] <pitti> l3on: ah, can do
[09:50] <l3on> thanks :)
[09:50] <pitti> l3on: for https://code.launchpad.net/~l3on/ubuntu/precise/anjuta-extras/fix-unmetdep/+merge/89639, did you check that anjuta-extras actually works with anjuta 3.3?
[09:51] <pitti> l3on: agda uploaded
[09:52] <bkerensa> pitti: Hopefully my merge request is much more satisfactory this time
[09:52] <pitti> bkerensa: not on the sponsoring page yet, could you please toss me the URL?
[09:53] <bkerensa> pitti: https://code.launchpad.net/~bkerensa/ubuntu/precise/snort/fix-for-889721/+merge/89643
[09:54] <pitti> bkerensa: ah, thanks
[09:56] <pitti> bkerensa: FYI, fixing the changelog syntax
[09:56] <pitti> it's (LP: #889721)
[09:56] <bkerensa> oh ok
[09:59] <bkerensa> pitti: I pushed a fix for changelog syntax
[09:59] <pitti> bkerensa: nevermind, did that while merging
[09:59] <bkerensa> oh
[10:00] <bkerensa> pitti: Thanks for the merge gnight!
[10:03] <Laibsch> bdrung: thank you for letting me know about distro-info.  Hehe.  And Stefano and you are even the maintainer.  What a coincidence.  Let's hope packages like ubuntu-dev-tools and especially pbuilder as well as others are patched in time for precise to rely on that info instead of hard-coding it.
[10:03] <pitti> l3on: did you see my anjuta-extras question?
[10:04] <Laibsch> looks like ubuntu-dev-tools already depends on distro-info.  Very well indeed.
[10:04] <l3on> pitti, yep :)
[10:04] <l3on> just a moment ... i need my precise and I don't find ti
[10:04] <Laibsch> pbuilder doesn't
[10:06] <l3on> pitti, in the while.. can you take a look at ruby-sinatra ?
[10:06] <pitti> l3on: yep, getting to this
[10:15] <l3on> pitti, ok, anjuta-extras does not work... but, in the homepage there is a mistake...
[10:16] <l3on> we have anjuta 3.3.4, that's the unstable version, and for -extras there's a unstable version too
[10:16] <pitti> yeah, I noticed -- there is no corresponding extras upstream version
[10:16] <l3on> but in the anjuta homepage does not appera
[10:16] <l3on> http://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/GNOME/sources/anjuta-extras/3.3/
[10:16] <pitti> oh, there is? nice
[10:16] <pitti> this should be packaged then
[10:16] <l3on> ok, I'm working on it
[10:16] <pitti> cheers
[10:17] <l3on> :)
[10:17] <pitti> l3on: the sinatra branches are both uploaded
[10:17] <l3on> thanks again :)
[10:17]  * pitti goes to the other MPs
[10:33] <doko> TheMuso, thanks! see message
[10:35] <gammax> Hello all, Is there anyone that may be able to help create a notification icon? It is very basic.
[10:44] <cjwatson> barry: FYI it looks like you need to write an MIR for python3-chardet
[10:45] <cjwatson> (it's a separate source, so more effort than usual)
[10:51] <diwic> no queue on launchpad today \o/
[11:03] <jibel> pitti, yesterday the retracer behaved oddly and marked crashes in software-center in Precise as duplicates of an old bug (bug 440889)
[11:03] <jibel> pitti, the only common error is they are both an ImportError in software-center
[11:04] <jibel> see the original description because the main description has been updated to match the new error.
[11:09] <pitti> jibel: indeed, so it seems this bug has regressed
[11:09] <pitti> but it seems recent comments indicate that it is fixed again now?
[11:10] <jibel> pitti, no, the original error was an import in webkit but the recent error was with bsddb in python2.7
[11:10] <jibel> pitti, the point is that trhe 2 bugs are different but the retracer marked them as dupes.
[11:12] <pitti> /usr/share/software-center/software-center:ImportError:<module>:<module>:<module>:<module>:<module>:<module>|440889||2009-10-02 20:40:05
[11:12] <pitti> ah, that's indeed not very helpful
[11:14] <pitti> jibel: filed as bug 920403, thanks for pointing out!
[11:24] <glatzor> barry, hello. I just wanted to inform you that I ported aptdaemon to gobject introspection.
[12:06] <l3on> pitti, if you're still free, anjuta extras - merge proposed uploaded :)
[12:06] <l3on> https://code.launchpad.net/~l3on/ubuntu/precise/anjuta-extras/new-version-3.3.4/+merge/89672
[12:07] <pitti> l3on: nice, thanks! will do ASAP
[12:07] <l3on> ok, thanks.
[12:07] <pitti> l3on: ah, so you closed the other MP?
[12:08] <l3on> pitti, yes, I don't know how uncommit that branch...
[12:08] <pitti> that's fine; you can just delete it, or leave it to bitrot
[12:08] <l3on> so I choose to remove that and create a new one
[12:43] <mdeslaur> hallyn: yeah, I just need to think of a way to automatically determine which release is a dev release...let me ponder it a while
[12:47] <Daviey> mdeslaur: the launchpad api tells you that.
[12:51] <mdeslaur> Daviey: yeah, that'll have to wait until I rewrite the whole thing in python though :P
[12:59] <Daviey> mdeslaur: perhaps asking someone closer to the API, but i imagine something based on, https://api.launchpad.net/1.0/ubuntu/current_series/ might help ?
[13:00] <mdeslaur> Daviey: yes, thanks
[13:07] <cjwatson> or distro-info
[13:07] <cjwatson> though that runs too fast to be talking to the API :-)
[13:08] <cjwatson> you can just about fit the API call into a one-liner:
[13:09] <cjwatson> $ python -c 'from launchpadlib.launchpad import Launchpad; lp = Launchpad.login_with("check-series", "production"); print(lp.distributions["ubuntu"].current_series.name)'
[13:09] <cjwatson> precise
[13:11] <tumbleweed> if it's not python, distro-info is probably easier
[13:11] <tumbleweed> we'll have to be keeping thata data up to date via SRU for other packages
[14:23] <bdrung> Laibsch: you're welcome. :) distro-info is already a year old (initially lived in ubuntu-dev-tools)
[14:24] <valterstr> so... I was interested in developing for ubuntu.
[14:24] <valterstr> anyone could give me some pointers where to start?
[14:24] <valterstr> I have programming skills, but I wouldn't call myself very advanced
[14:25] <tumbleweed> valterstr: what sort of things do you want to work on?
[14:25] <valterstr> well, what is there? :?
[14:25] <valterstr> core development, packages. more?
[14:27] <valterstr> tumbleweed: what is there?
[14:28] <tumbleweed> valterstr: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted comes to mind, but it's less than perfect
[14:28] <valterstr> I have seen it...
[14:28] <valterstr> but it doesn't really explain much.
[14:29] <valterstr> it gives guidelines
[14:29] <tumbleweed> you can work upstream, on packages that Ubuntu packages. You can fix bugs on things in Ubuntu, write patches for bugs in our bugtracker, test proposed fixes, clean things up, write developement utilities, etc. Really, anything you want to...
[14:29] <tumbleweed> #ubuntu-motu for this, maybe?
[14:29] <valterstr> will check there then.
[14:29] <valterstr> thanks.
[14:49] <seb128> zul, hi
[14:49] <seb128> zul, could you look at bug #911888?
[14:49] <zul> seb128: yeah ill have a look today
[14:50] <seb128> zul, we keep getting duplicates, basically adding smb printers and browsing smb shares is broken in precise for some weeks
[14:50] <seb128> zul, thanks
[14:50]  * smb knew he was broken
[14:51] <seb128> smb, unfortunate name conflict :p
[14:51] <smb> hehe
[14:52] <zul> seb128: its supposedly fixed in 3.6.2 so ill backport the patch today
[14:52] <seb128> zul, excellent, thank you
[14:59] <barry> cjwatson: another alternative would be to remove the chardet requirement for feedparser.  upstream test suite fails when chardet is installed, and upstream has essentially deprecated its use in feedparser.  so i think i should just remove python3-chardet as a *dep.  thoughts?
[15:22] <bdrung> tumbleweed: what do you think about http://paste.ubuntu.com/814370/ ?
[15:24] <tumbleweed> bdrung: I guess that works. Bit of an odd interface, but simple enough
[15:25] <bdrung> tumbleweed: or do you prefer a string parameter?
[15:26] <tumbleweed> yes, that'd be a nicer interface
[15:34]  * dholbach hugs pitti
[15:34] <bdrung> micahg: re bug #909570, can you give me a testcase for that bug?
[15:39] <micahg> bdrung: lp:firefox
[16:04] <micahg> cjwatson: about the puppet backport, natty got the right version, but maverick and lucid only got a backport from the release pocket and not updates
[16:13]  * pitti hugs dholbach back
[16:45] <bdrung> tumbleweed: better: http://paste.ubuntu.com/814434/ ?
[16:47] <tumbleweed> bdrung: yeah
[16:47] <bdrung> tumbleweed: suggestions for the FIXME?
[16:47] <tumbleweed> raise ValueError ?
[16:50] <cjwatson> barry: python-debian is going to want python3-chardet anyway
[16:51] <cjwatson> micahg: oh, bah, sorry about that
[16:52] <barry> cjwatson: okay.  i just uploaded a new feedparser without the deps on py3-chardet, but i'll review/file the MIR for it anyway
[16:52] <cjwatson> barry: ok - if it's just -debian then I guess you can make it my problem if you want :)
[16:52] <cjwatson> waiting for an upstream review there
[16:53] <barry> cjwatson: let's say, if you get to it first, i won't complain :)
[16:53] <cjwatson> micahg: can you reopen the relevant two tasks for me, please?  I can't
[16:54] <micahg> cjwatson: done, thanks
[17:03] <l3on> someone can rebuild python-pysqlite1.1?
[17:03] <l3on> there is an unmetdep here:
[17:03] <l3on> Package: python-pysqlite1.1-dbg
[17:03] <l3on> Version: 1.1.8a-3ubuntu2
[17:03] <l3on> Missing: python-pysqlite1.1 (= 1.1.8a-3ubuntu2
[17:05] <cjwatson> micahg: should be all fixed now.
[17:06] <micahg> cjwatson: looks good, thanks
[17:06] <tumbleweed> l3on: it looks like that was supposed to have been deleted, but i tcame back in oneiric
[17:06] <cjwatson> l3on: err, that's kind of odd ...
[17:07] <cjwatson> tumbleweed: I don't see a deletion in the publishing histsory
[17:07] <cjwatson> *history
[17:07] <cjwatson> oh, yes I do
[17:07] <tumbleweed> cjwatson: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-pysqlite1.1/+publishinghistory deleted in natty
[17:07] <cjwatson> the phrase "WTF" comes to mind
[17:07] <tumbleweed> indeed
[17:07] <cjwatson> maybe we should just delete it again
[17:08]  * tumbleweed hands cjwatson a garlic stake
[17:08] <cjwatson> its only reverse dependencies have alternatives
[17:10] <cjwatson> I've removed it and with any luck it will stay dead this time
[17:11] <mneptok> if zombie movies are any indication, you have to remove HEAD
[17:33] <GridCube> hello, im having a few problems, im trying to use the ubuntu-bug to report a few bugs im finding on today's xubuntu image, the problem is that im behind a proxy, so ubuntu-bug is refusing to work, i tried setting html_proxy on a terminal and launching it from there, but with no luck
[17:34] <GridCube> the html_proxy does work because i just zsynced the image a few minutes ago
[17:37] <pitti> micahg: should we look into releasing firefox tomorrow (my) morning (i. e. in about 12 hours)?
[17:39] <cjwatson> GridCube: there is no such environment variable as html_proxy
[17:39] <cjwatson> (as I told you on -release)
[17:39] <cjwatson> it's http_proxy
[17:39] <GridCube> sorry yes
[17:40] <GridCube> thats the one i used i was just writing from memory now
[17:40] <cjwatson> and #ubuntu-devel still isn't the right place to ask, as micahg said on -release
[17:40] <GridCube> i know
[17:40] <GridCube> :P i already asked on -bugs
[17:42] <cjwatson> if you ask on several different channels in parallel, you should expect parallel responses ... ;-)
[17:42] <GridCube> :P indeed
[17:50] <mpt> kirkland, hi, I'd like to talk with you about privacy and encryption settings if you have time
[18:04] <kirkland> mpt: please
[18:04] <kirkland> mpt: sure, shoot
[18:04] <kirkland> mpt: irc or voice?
[18:04] <mpt> kirkland, arg, I need to go now, sorry ... What time will you be around tomorrow?
[18:05] <kirkland> mpt: I'm UTC-6 right now
[18:05] <kirkland> mpt: most of that work day
[18:05] <kirkland> mpt: it's noon here right now
[18:06] <mpt> kirkland, ok, see you in 21-ish hours :-)
[18:19] <bdrung> tumbleweed: pushed distro-info. can you have a look at it? i want to upload it.
[19:11] <SpamapS> Ugh.. really not a fan of the new bug listing design
[19:12] <ScottK> Oh.  My.
[19:40] <cjwatson> scott-work: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ merry Christmas
[19:40] <cjwatson> the text is a bit wrong I guess
[19:42] <cjwatson> I might leave it that way for now but feel free to file suggestions for HTML changes as bugs on the ubuntu-cdimage project
[19:44] <cjwatson> hmm, suspiciously short build though!
[19:44] <cjwatson> scott-work: ok, sorry, this is busted, I'll try again
[19:48] <cjwatson> next build should be happier
[20:17] <SpamapS> hrm.. still stuff lingering for libmysqlclient16
[20:19] <micahg> looks only like 3 or 4 thinsg
[20:19] <micahg> can give you a pastebin if you like
[20:30] <tumbleweed> bdrung: lgtm
[20:47] <cjwatson> micahg: re puppet, I've also now fixed backport-helper.py so that the same mistake shouldn't happen again
[20:48] <micahg> cjwatson: thanks
[21:04] <stgraber> mdz, pitti: TB meeting?
[21:15]  * cjwatson grins at a Debian removal bug
[21:15] <cjwatson> "Also, there seem to be 4 installations, 3 of which are mine."
[21:26] <Daviey> cjwatson: the 4th is probably piuparts.debian.org :)
[21:28] <jono> has Empathy been removed from the disc?
[21:28] <scott-work> cjwatson: lol
[21:28] <jono> I just noticed in my new install that it is not installed
[21:28] <scott-work> cjwatson: but i can defintely tell you that i truly appreciate your efforts on this :)
[21:29] <l3on> Hey guys... I have 4 packages that need a rebuild... since I don't have upload rights, someone can do that for me ?
[21:30] <micahg> l3on: sure, which ones and why?
[21:30] <l3on> micahg, well:
[21:30] <l3on> This three: haskell-test-framework-hunit haskell-test-framework-quickcheck2 haskell-test-framework-th
[21:30] <SpamapS> why does haskell get rebuilt every 3 weeks? ;)
[21:31] <micahg> ABI changes per upload
[21:31] <l3on> are against: haskell-test-framework
[21:31] <l3on> this: haskell-clientsession against haskell-skein
[21:32] <l3on> thanks micahg :)
[21:32] <jbicha> jono: I just did a new install of precise this morning and empathy is definitely installed, maybe you did a dist-upgrade that removed it?
[21:32] <jono> jbicha, hmmm odd
[21:32] <jono> thanks jbicha
[21:34] <l3on> micahg, here the motivation → http://paste.ubuntu.com/814739/
[21:35] <micahg> l3on: yeah, makes sense
[21:37] <cjwatson> l3on: fyi, although haskell is a known standard case where we need rebuilds, in general you cannot assume that unmet dependencies will be magically fixed by a rebuild
[21:37] <cjwatson> I've noticed you asking for that as a sort of reflex for unmet deps - you do need to check that rebuilding will actually help
[21:38] <l3on> I rebuild http://debomatic.debian.net/precise/pool/haskell-test-framework-th_0.2.2-3build1/
[21:39] <l3on> but, onestly, I dind't check the other :/
[21:39] <l3on> *others
[21:40] <cjwatson> haskell needs to be rebuilt in dependency order - otherwise you may end up having to rebuild multiple times
[21:40] <cjwatson> use http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/ghc.html
[21:41] <cjwatson> likewise with ocaml
[21:42] <l3on> well.... and is that link public ?
[21:42] <TheMuso> doko: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/at-spi/+bug/790240/+attachment/2689627/+files/openjdk-use-atk-wrapper.diff are my changes for openjdk-6.
[21:42] <l3on> no, because it's the first time I ever seen that ...
[21:42] <cjwatson> l3on: yes
[21:43] <cjwatson> I mean yes it is public
[21:43] <l3on> there is some wiki page that I have not read yet ?
[21:43] <cjwatson> I can hardly answer that reasonably
[21:43] <infinity> I suspect there are several?
[21:44] <l3on> can you give me a wikipage that links to that html ?
[21:44] <cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-May/033270.html
[21:44] <cjwatson> no idea if it is on the wiki
[21:44] <cjwatson> but it's a wiki, you can edit it :)
[21:46] <cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview/Alpha1 and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlusOneMaintenanceTeam/Specs/Infrastructure link to it, although neither is particularly documentation; but you specified wiki pages. :-)
[21:46] <l3on> It's absolutely not clear for a new contributor all these things... there's an well known lack in devel-doc that scares me ... :/
[21:47] <l3on> beh... let's go to read :) thank cjwatson
[21:47] <YokoZar> Which debhelper program might be responsible for deleting a .so file in a package directory?
[21:48]  * SpamapS starts a discussion about bug #871907
[21:48] <infinity> SpamapS: Agreed, ship it.
[21:49] <infinity> SpamapS: (Obviously, the correct answer here is "why the heck isn't vim detecting the current terminal palette and adjusting sanely?"
[21:49] <infinity> )
[21:49] <infinity> SpamapS: But people who use white terminals are Wrong(tm) anyway.
[21:51]  * SpamapS raises infinity a few ticks on the list of people who get to come on the space ship this December
[21:52] <SpamapS> infinity: indeed, "terminal" isn't enough, we need a new bit to the emulation spec which is "normal" or "eye burning"
[21:54] <cjwatson> l3on: I don't think it would be reasonable for most new contributors to need to know about the transition tracker; it's a fairly advanced archive management tool
[21:54] <cjwatson> maybe s/advanced/specialised/
[21:57] <micahg> l3on: I did the ones for haskell-test-framework, the haskell-clientsession one requires a few extra rebuilds on top of this and I'm not going to do that right now, are you blocked on this for something or are you just trying to fix stuff?
[21:57] <l3on> micahg, fixing unmetdep in precise...
[22:01] <micahg> ok, so, it's 7 rebuilds total and they have to be in the right order
[22:02] <micahg> maybe I look later this week unless someone else grabs it first
[22:02] <micahg> actually, it's 8 (forgot about the first one )
[22:03] <infinity> SpamapS: Is there no way for vim to determine its current bgcolor?
[22:03] <infinity> SpamapS: I would have thought that it would know what it inherited from its parent.
[22:16] <stgraber> cjwatson: if you have a sec, the TB meeting minutes are waiting in ubuntu-devel-announce
[22:19] <cjwatson> stgraber: accepted
[22:20] <stgraber> cjwatson: thanks
[22:21] <RAOF> We're almost ready to perform the Xserver transition, so I now need to know how to/who to do the source+binary copy from the staging PPA.
[22:52] <RAOF> cjwatson: If you're not too busy/asleep, I suspect that you know how I can go about binary-copying from the X staging PPA into precise. :)
[22:53] <cjwatson> yep.  needs an archive admin.  I can do it - can you give me full details?
[22:53] <cjwatson> oh, wait, you ARE an archive admin
[22:53] <YokoZar> If package foo version 1 provides i386 and amd64 versions, and package foo version 2 in precise only provides i386 versions (that install fine via multiarch), what happens at upgrade time?
[22:54] <RAOF> cjwatson: Only for purposes of SRU-teamage.
[22:54] <YokoZar> IE, do we have to special case each multiarch transition from packages that used to use ia32-libs?
[22:54] <cjwatson> I think it wants an adaptation of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration#Publishing_packages_from_the_ubuntu-mozilla-security_public_PPA
[22:54] <Laney> does copyPackage(s) + include_binaries=True not work for anyone? does it work at all?
[22:55] <cjwatson> Laney: wgrant seems to think it's busted, and I've seen some corroboration of that, so I intend to avoid it until I have time to write a unit test that shows up the problem
[22:55] <Laney> righto
[22:55] <cjwatson> I think it worked for me when copying oneiric-proposed -> precise but not oneiric-proposed -> oneiric-updates
[22:55] <wgrant> cjwatson: I don't know that it's busted, I just know how many problems the implementation has had, and how little it was tested.
[22:55] <RAOF> We want everything in https://launchpad.net/~canonical-x/+archive/x-staging/+packages to land in Precise.  It's all built and ready.
[22:56] <cjwatson> but at least some of the implementors seem to be opposed to having the damn thing just e-mail me to tell me what the problem is
[22:56] <cjwatson> so I can't debug it
[22:56] <cjwatson> RAOF: should I care about the four build failures there?
[22:57] <RAOF> Three of them are expected dep-waits rather than build failures; the msm failure on armhf needs fixing, but that can be done later.
[22:58] <cjwatson> I'm not sure it can after I copy
[22:58] <cjwatson> I mean I'm not certain it won't need a new upload
[22:58] <RAOF> Oh, it will need a new upload.
[22:59] <RAOF> But I'm not sure if anyone uses that driver at all, I don't particularly want to invest the time in fixing the build on armhf right now, and I don't want to delay the transition further.
[23:00] <RAOF> And I *know* that no-one uses that driver on armhf right now, because it's never been built there before.
[23:00]  * Laney hopes this transition will bring super meat boy back :-)
[23:02]  * RAOF had no idea that super meat boy went away, so he confidently responds *yes* !
[23:18] <kirkland> cjwatson: hey, any chance you're still around?
[23:18] <kirkland> cjwatson: I have some questions about linux-headers and dkms
[23:19] <cjwatson> RAOF: xkeyboard-config has a newer version in precise?
[23:19] <cjwatson> kirkland: sort of, not sure that sounds like I'm the best person to ask though ...
[23:19] <kirkland> cjwatson: who do you recommend to field this one, then?
[23:19] <kirkland> maybe slangasek has some ideas
[23:19] <RAOF> cjwatson: Yes, that's expected, sorry.  I should have removed that from the PPA.
[23:19] <cjwatson> kirkland: I don't know.  You could ask the question to the channel first and then we could find out
[23:20]  * RAOF could even have some relevant dkms knowledge
[23:20] <kirkland> slangasek: cjwatson: okay, I think this should probably be a systemic problem with any dkms packages
[23:20] <kirkland> RAOF: \o/
[23:20] <kirkland> slangasek: cjwatson: i have a dkms package, which, of course requires linux-headers to build
[23:21] <kirkland> slangasek: cjwatson: i can depend on linux-headers, clearly
[23:21] <kirkland> slangasek: cjwatson: but in practice, that doesn't seem to be enough
[23:21] <robert_ancell> @pilot on
[23:21] <udevbot_> (pilot (in|out)) -- Set yourself an in or out of patch pilot.
[23:21] <robert_ancell> @pilot in
[23:21] <kirkland> slangasek: cjwatson: because of the combination of all of the different versions and flavors that might be on a given user's system
[23:21] <infinity> kirkland: Depending on headers is as much of a failing idea as depending on kernel images.
[23:21] <slangasek> kirkland: there's no good solution to this problem
[23:22] <slangasek> fwiw
[23:22] <kirkland> slangasek: ah, okay, so this is a known issue, that others have tried to solve?
[23:22] <slangasek> yep
[23:22] <kirkland> slangasek: is there a currently recommended best practice?
[23:22] <slangasek> there's no way to express the dependency "I need the version of the headers corresponding to the kernel the user has installed / is running"
[23:22] <infinity> kirkland: nvidia* goes for a best guess of "linux-headers-generic | linux-headers", but that will fail often enough.
[23:23] <kirkland> infinity: yep, which is where we are
[23:23] <infinity> kirkland: Generally, the assumption is that people installing dkms packages have the right linux-* metapackage installed, or know what they're doing. :/
[23:23] <slangasek> kirkland: I think whatever superm1 is doing is probably "recommended best practice"
[23:23] <cjwatson> RAOF: http://paste.ubuntu.com/814880/ - please review
[23:23] <kirkland> infinity: i have a check in the postinst, that can echo to the user exactly what they need to install
[23:23] <kirkland> slangasek: okay, i poked superm1 about this several weeks ago, never heard back from him
[23:23] <infinity> kirkland: People who watch postinst output have a high incidence of intersection with people who know what headers they need.
[23:24] <kirkland> infinity: ack
[23:24] <infinity> kirkland: Now, if this is a driver being enabled by jockey, I suspect jockey can DTRT (and if it doesn't, it could be taught how to)
[23:24] <kirkland> perhaps what i need is a wrapper script that DTRT
[23:24] <slangasek> kirkland: right - but you can work out which dkms-using packages in the archive he's touched, I guess, and look at what they do :)  (I honestly don't remember which those are)
[23:24] <kirkland> and recommend that as the way to install this dkms module
[23:25] <kirkland> slangasek: heh
[23:25] <cjwatson> RAOF: It's possible I could do it all in one command, but then I wouldn't get version checks
[23:25] <cjwatson> And I'm paranoid about this sort of thing
[23:26] <RAOF> Fair enough.  I'm checking the versions, too.
[23:26] <infinity> kirkland: To be fair, on a "standard" Ubuntu system (server or any desktop flavor), it's fair to assume that the right headers are installed, and dkms will "just work".
[23:26] <kirkland> headers=$(dpkg -l linux-image-* | grep "^ii" | awk '{print $2}' | sed "s/-image-/-headers-/") ; sudo apt-get install $headers
[23:26] <infinity> kirkland: People who break that assumption, while in an unfortunate situation from a support and DWIM standpoint, are hopefully fairly rare.
[23:27] <kirkland> infinity: hmm, are you sure about that?
[23:27] <infinity> kirkland: Quite.
[23:27] <kirkland> infinity: i didn't think headers were installed everywhere by default?
[23:28] <infinity> kirkland: We jump through hoops to make sure post-installer systems have kernel+headers that match, and a metapackage to make that persist on upgrades.
[23:28] <RAOF> cjwatson: That list looks correct.
[23:28]  * cjwatson idly notes that linux-headers-generic is no longer the default on i386 ...
[23:29] <cjwatson> (And no idea if we always get upgrades right.)
[23:29] <infinity> cjwatson: You mean generic -> pae upgrades?
[23:29] <infinity> cjwatson: I have no idea either, but I'd like to hope so? :)
[23:30] <cjwatson> So would I.
[23:30] <cjwatson> But I hope for money to rain from the sky too.
[23:30] <infinity> That's hot happening in Cambridge?
[23:31] <infinity> You need to move.
[23:31] <cjwatson> Sucks to be us.
[23:31] <infinity> s/hot/not/
[23:31] <RAOF> I hope you're hoping for notes.  Coins would be really annoying!
[23:31] <infinity> I need new fingers to rain from the sky.
[23:32] <kirkland> if not linux-headers-generic, what is "the default" on i386 now, cjwatson ?
[23:32] <cjwatson> -generic-pae
[23:32] <kirkland> cjwatson: k
[23:32] <cjwatson> as announced a month or two back
[23:34]  * infinity has an inexplicable craving for strawberry milkshakes, and decides it's time for lunch.
[23:36] <kirkland> slangasek: cjwatson: infinity: thanks for your help
[23:36] <kirkland> superm1: ping me about dkms when you have some time
[23:36] <kirkland> superm1: re: the conversation I just had with infinity, cjwatson, and slangasek above
[23:37] <kirkland> superm1: re: best practices on ensuring that all of the necessary headers are installed
[23:37] <slangasek> infinity: new fingers> eew
[23:37] <slangasek> kirkland: sure thing
[23:48] <SpamapS> slangasek: think you'd have time to sponsor a mysql upload?
[23:49] <SpamapS> slangasek: 5.5.20 did in fact fix compiling with gcc 4.6
[23:49] <SpamapS> slangasek: I think I'll keep it in experimental though, until I figure out how to not build /usr/bin/mysql statically linked
[23:57] <micahg> robert_ancell: would be appreciated if you can have a look at bug Bug #916477 after your piloting session (blocking lightdm-gtk-greeter getting into Debian)
[23:59] <robert_ancell> micahg, do you understand why it is failing?  The greeter doesn't need to link against gio