[09:05] <mdke> morning all
[08:41] <froud> hi, my hardmodem has blown and I only have a softmodem to replace it with, anyone know of some docs to build martian on ubuntu server
[10:49] <mdke> nixternal:
[10:49] <mdke> 16:17 #launchpad: < danilos> mdke: ping (or just email me to clarify what has changed for kubuntu-docs POT files: kubuntu/index/index.pot seems to be a renamed version  of kubuntu/sysdocs-index/index.pot and the other two files are .desktop file translations -- see
[10:49] <mdke>  https://translations.launchpad.ne/ubuntu/gutsy/+source/kubuntu-docs/+imports?field.filter_status=NEEDS_REVIEW&field.filter_extension=sall)
[10:50] <nixternal> index is a totally new version and needs full translation
[10:50] <nixternal> it does replace sysdocs-index in general though
[10:51] <mdke> nixternal: can you email danilo or leave him a msg to let him know what to do with the templates?
[10:52] <nixternal> msg'n him now
[10:52] <mdke> thanks
[10:57] <nixternal> no problem
[11:35] <CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4322 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): japanese translations, sent privately by email


[09:26] <Chipaca> good morning!
[09:34] <niemeyer> Moin moin!
[09:39] <Chipaca> jam: niemeyer: have you guys talked about the testing pr any more than what's on github?
[09:42] <niemeyer> We did.. but I think we still misunderstood each other and need to sync again
[09:43] <niemeyer> The enable events method with a charm instance was unexpected to me at least
[09:44] <Chipaca> niemeyer: I think reading the __init__ method, the way charm is passed in changes
[09:44] <Chipaca> niemeyer: ie in initialize(charm) instead of Harness(charm)
[09:45] <Chipaca> bah, MyCharm*
[09:46] <Chipaca> i think that's making things too granular ( → harder to use)
[09:46] <Chipaca> and would prefer just __init__() doing the initalization work (could just call _initialize)
[09:47] <niemeyer> I still don't get it.. wasn't the create_harness method receiving a charm type? Why did it change?
[09:47] <Chipaca> I think it was but I might misremember
[09:52] <Chipaca> https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/146/commits/c2639df120efe2c56235511c814e71644dd640d0 is where that changed
[09:52] <Chipaca> and I think on its own it makes sense
[09:53] <Chipaca> that is: don't pass in the charm class, then do all the setup you need, and then initialize
[09:53] <Chipaca> thus initialize kicks off events
[09:53] <Chipaca> I don't think it makes sense in conjunction with explicit enable/disable methods
[09:53] <Chipaca> especially with the default of enabled
[09:53] <Chipaca> niemeyer: this also explains why enable takes the charm :-)
[09:54] <Chipaca> in fact I think I like the approach of build without the charm, set up, then initialize the charm to start handling events; it feels very natural
[09:55] <Chipaca> at this point enable/disable_events are handles for doing fancier stuff (but I don't see the need for passing in the charm to enable, beyond "disable sets it to None was the easiest way of disabling events"
[09:55] <Chipaca> )
[09:57] <niemeyer> Chipaca: I don't see how it makes sense..
[09:57] <niemeyer> Chipaca: The charm isn't created by the developer in practice anyway
[09:57] <niemeyer> Sorry, created is not a good term here
[09:57] <niemeyer> I mean it's not instantiated
[09:58] <Chipaca> niemeyer: i assume the no-make-sense bit is enable_events taking a charm instance?
[09:58] <niemeyer> Was talking about the argument itself
[09:59] <niemeyer> But yes, that's where the conversation started
[09:59] <niemeyer> Also, disabling resetting it
[09:59] <Chipaca> niemeyer: sorry, which argument?
[09:59]  * Chipaca now lost
[09:59] <niemeyer> Chipaca: The conversation we're having just now?
[09:59] <Chipaca> niemeyer: ah :)
[09:59] <Chipaca> i thought you meant argument to the method
[09:59] <niemeyer> Ah, no, sorry
[09:59] <Chipaca> niemeyer: yes, agreed, having disable/enable fiddle with the charm on the handler is weird / wrong
[10:01] <Chipaca> niemeyer: but the constructor without the charm class, and then explicit initialize, feels alright to me
[10:01] <Chipaca> niemeyer: it means in most cases you won't need to poke at enable/disable at all
[10:02] <Chipaca> if we agree on that, then we can look at how to make enable/disable not fiddle with the charm instance
[10:05] <niemeyer> I had to jump into a call at 10, but we can keep going in a bit
[10:06] <Chipaca> if we don't, then the other coherent thing is to not have initialize, and just enable/disable, that makes the need to pass the charm instance in go away
[10:07] <Chipaca> the code to not pass in the charm instance to enable/disbale is probably the same in both cases, and it's not pretty but not terrible either (unless i miss something)
[10:07] <Chipaca> but it's all hidden from the dev, so that's alright
[10:07] <Chipaca> the passing it in is a wart exposed to the dev, or at least it feels like it --- if there was a non-warty reason i don't see it
[10:08] <Chipaca> no probs, i have things i need to read :)
[10:08]  * Chipaca goes read
[10:36] <niemeyer> > 10:01:28 niemeyer: but the constructor without the charm class, and then explicit initialize, feels alright to me
[10:36] <niemeyer> If that's true I must be missing something about how we'll use it
[10:37] <niemeyer> We went from "this really needs to return the two arguments because that's what we're testing" to "the charm can be created separately and needs to be fed manually by calling some method"
[10:38] <Chipaca> niemeyer: it's initialize(MyCharm), not initialize(charm), right?
[10:38] <niemeyer> What's "initialize"?
[10:39] <Chipaca> niemeyer: instantiate the charm and plug it in to the framework?
[10:39] <niemeyer> Sorry, I'm completely lost
[10:39] <Chipaca> niemeyer: https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/146/commits/c2639df120efe2c56235511c814e71644dd640d0#diff-6964ca15c08db5ba857f6517369815d9R72
[10:40] <niemeyer> Yes, I don't get any of that
[10:40] <niemeyer> In my mind it was "harness = Harness(MyCharm)"
[10:41] <Chipaca> niemeyer: also with some yaml, right?
[10:42] <niemeyer> Optionally I think, but yes
[10:45] <Chipaca> niemeyer: and that does a couple of things: creates a framework that has a model with a testing backend, and instantiates the charm class hooked into that framework
[10:45] <niemeyer> Yeah, it does all the boring boilerplate
[10:45] <Chipaca> niemeyer: initialize() splits out the second of those two things into an explicit method
[10:45] <niemeyer> Because....?
[10:46] <Chipaca> niemeyer: because then you can tweak the model by adding relationships and whatnot, without having the charm hooked up to it yet
[10:46] <Chipaca> ie without handling events
[10:47] <niemeyer> Chipaca: Which events?  There can't possibly be any events to consume at this stage, right?
[10:48] <Chipaca> niemeyer: if you do: harness.add_relation(...), and the charm was already plugged in, it'll get the relation_created (say)
[10:48] <Chipaca> niemeyer: or add_relation_unit() would trigger relation_joined
[10:48] <Chipaca> etc
[10:48] <niemeyer> Chipaca: That's intended.. to disable that behavior you'd call disable_events()
[10:49] <niemeyer> Which perhaps should really be called disable_hooks, actually, since we don't want to disable internal events I think
[10:49] <niemeyer> but that's an aside
[10:50] <Chipaca> niemeyer: right, having initialize() means that the thing starts with events disabled, and then you hook things up and they're enabled, in a natural way
[10:52] <Chipaca> niemeyer: at that point we could probably not have enable/disable at all, unless we found some advanced scenarios where they made sense
[10:52] <niemeyer> Chipaca: It sounds to me like you're trying to retrofit the design into what we have in the PR
[10:52] <niemeyer> Chipaca: The PR includes initialize, disable_events, and enable_events
[10:52] <Chipaca> heh
[10:53] <Chipaca> maybe
[10:53] <niemeyer> Chipaca: And __init__, which is a prefix of "initialize" :)
[10:53] <niemeyer> Chipaca: So the rationale you just provided is at least not the reason why it ended up like this
[10:53] <Chipaca> to be clear, I _don't_ like passing the charm into enable
[10:54] <niemeyer> Chipaca: And when you call update_config, will we run hooks or not?
[10:54] <Chipaca> niemeyer: when?
[10:54] <Chipaca> :)
[10:55] <Chipaca> seriously: in which scenario (with initialize? without?), and at what point (after enable/disable/initialize/frob/...?)
[10:56] <niemeyer> You pick it.. do you want to fire hooks every time after your preferred point of initialization?
[10:56] <niemeyer> Can you foresee reasons not to?
[10:56] <niemeyer> How do you handle it?
[10:56] <Chipaca> hah, 1 sec
[10:56] <Chipaca> niemeyer: jam already did https://github.com/jameinel/operator/pull/3/files fwiw
[10:56] <niemeyer> It would be nice to have jam with us at some point.. is he working today?
[10:57] <Chipaca> he is, or at least, he just merged master
[10:57] <niemeyer> Why are we both having this conversation without us?  Is this channel a group chat or not?
[10:58] <niemeyer> I don't care if we use IRC, or Telegram, or telnet.. but we need to have people communicating if we expect this thing to work at all
[10:58] <Chipaca> I shall enquire
[10:59] <jam> I am around, I just don't sit with IRC in my view
[10:59] <niemeyer> jam, Chipaca: I don't care about which chat you guys use, but you need notifications active on the channel where you team works
[11:00] <Chipaca> I should've pinged jam earlier in this, is all
[11:00] <jam> I think I was probably making coffee when you pinged earlier, my apologies.
[11:01] <niemeyer> Chipaca: No, not really.. this is the team channel.. it won't work if you need to ping people to pay attention whenever there's a conversation
[11:21] <jam> niemeyer: Chipaca: so as I mentioned in my PR response, decoupling the charm being instantiated from the Harness felt like a nicer separation of concerns. Especially for code that wanted to test changes to the model without events, it felt much more natural to not have the charm created yet
[11:22] <jam> (especially, for test_model.py, but I realize that is a bit of a special case of testing the framework itself)
[11:23] <jam> *some* sort of helper function is currently necessary because of the need to have unique Class definitions, which I will be looking at next.
[11:23] <niemeyer> Isn't the charm the entire thing the harness is testing, with extreme coupling so that you can manipulate its fake backend model to arbitrary degrees?
[11:23] <niemeyer> Isn't every emit_foo() method going to be injecting events into that charm?
[11:23] <niemeyer> Every other updating method effectively going to be invoking things into it?
[11:25] <jam> events are definitely coupled to the charm instance, as that is the only way to generate hook events.
[11:25] <niemeyer> What is the harness doing that it *not* coupled to the charm?
[11:25] <jam> Though the fact that we've stated "we may not want to have events emitted yet" felt like a case of setting up the Model/Framework without a Charm, and then instantiating the charm once the setup was done felt quite natural
[11:26] <jam> All of the state-of-the-model is underneath charm. Such that the charm can go look at it, but doesn't require a charm to exist for the model to be updated.
[11:29] <Chipaca> to me, the question goes back to how we expect this to be used more
[11:29] <niemeyer> That's fine.. it's what Chipaca was suggesting above. We can postpone the creation of the charm and have an explicit method for that. It doesn't change everything else we discussed, though:
[11:30] <niemeyer> - We shouldn't make people play puzzle on every test to assemble the harness
[11:30] <niemeyer> - There's no reason for disable_event/enable_event to take a charm and kill the internal charm instance
[11:30] <niemeyer> - We may need to stop emitting hooks and make that manual so that people can try to trigger particular cases
[11:31] <niemeyer> - The default case is supposed to be straightforward
[11:32] <niemeyer> Having something like a harness.start() method would address Chipaca's suggestion.. but we still need to address everything else
[11:32] <Chipaca> niemeyer: what's the puzzle you refer to in the first point?
[11:33] <niemeyer> Chipaca: "... to assemble the harness"?
[11:36] <jam> so the current proposed syntax if we rename 'initialize' to 'start' and change enable/disable to use a boolean would be:
[11:36] <jam> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/s4QcKGX3Xr/
[11:36] <jam> niemeyer: Chipaca ^^
[11:36] <Chipaca> sorry, having to check on the boys' home work
[11:36] <Chipaca> back now
[11:37] <jam> we have to have the charm meta to initialize a Model
[11:37] <niemeyer> Let me quickly draft something
[11:38]  * Chipaca waitws
[11:38]  * Chipaca waits, also
[11:38] <jam> if you have a different syntax that feels more natural, having examples are good. I've had these in tests, etc, but I'm happy to pull them out explicitly and discuss them.
[11:40] <niemeyer> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/XfjJ95NfB4/
[11:44] <Chipaca> niemeyer: could make the yaml an optional arg on the constructor
[11:44] <Chipaca> instead of having it as a method (because then you have to think about what happens if you call it after you've started or whatever)
[11:44] <niemeyer> Chipaca: You could, but this is usually long string
[11:45] <niemeyer> Chipaca: harness = Harness(Charm) feels solid
[11:45] <niemeyer> Chipaca: You don't have to think if you don't allow it to take place
[11:45] <jam> niemeyer: so one thing that I was using this for testing is testing components that aren't themselves a charm. And we don't have a metadata.yaml for CharmBase
[11:48] <niemeyer> jam: I'm a bit lost.. CharmBase is the base class for charms.. charms have metadata.. ?
[11:48] <jam> niemeyer: if I'm testing MysqlClient, it doesn't have its own charm. it will be used by several charms, and does consume events.
[11:49] <jam> we need 'name' from metadata.yaml
[11:50] <Chipaca> i need to step out but will catch up when i return
[11:50] <niemeyer> jam: How does that change things in the context above?
[11:51] <jam> niemeyer: so if you just pass CharmBase, there isn't a metadata.yaml, even though it does have defined events
[11:51] <niemeyer> jam: We can just have a stock metadata.yaml, but that won't have any endpoints that will be useful for MysqlClient..
[11:52] <niemeyer> jam: The only reasonable answer I can tihnk of is you actually define a trivial test charm and metadata to test it.. but I'm not sure if you're thinking of specific issues?
[11:54] <jam> so I've been going with explicit metadata for each instantiation, which does have the nice property that you declare your needs right before you start testing them.
[11:54] <jam> but I can understand when testing a real charm, that ends up copying the metadata you've already had to declare
[11:55] <jam> niemeyer: does an optional __init__ parameter seem ok? I'm not sure about changing metadata late with set_meta()
[11:55] <niemeyer> jam: Both of these cases seem covered in the example paste I provided above.. so I'm still not entirely sure if you're trying to point something that I'm completely oblivious to
[11:55] <niemeyer> jam: What do you mean "late"?  Isn't the entire point of the start() method to enable a setup phase?
[11:57] <jam> niemeyer: so start() for *me* was to delay when the Charm was instantiated, but to still have a Model that you can populate. If you can't do anything before start() then there is no reason to decouple it from __init__
[11:58] <niemeyer> jam: Exactly.. that's what I'm saying as well
[11:58] <jam> Model can't be instantiated before Meta is finalized, as it needs it for things like "what relations will I know about". So you can't have 'set_meta' to set it without replacing the Model.
[11:59] <jam> niemeyer: so with the code that I proposed, you can perfectly populate Model with relation data, config data, etc, all without a Charm.
[11:59] <niemeyer> I see
[11:59] <jam> and then when you *do* create a Charm, it has access to a populated Model.
[12:00] <niemeyer> jam: Do you populate the model, or do you populate the backend?
[12:00] <jam> niemeyer: the backend.
[12:00] <niemeyer> jam: The backend needs meta?
[12:01] <jam> niemeyer: _ModelBackend doesn't need meta, but you pass in the backend to Model in its __init__ and Model does need both Backend and Meta.
[12:01] <niemeyer> jam: If you populate the backend, and it doesn't need meta, can we create the model at start time?
[12:02] <jam> niemeyer: and Framework which is a base for everything also needs Model, but that, again, could be constructed late.
[12:02] <jam> niemeyer: so yes, we could fix Meta, create Model and Framework and Charm during start
[12:03] <jam> and then have set_meta() refuse if Model has been created.
[12:04] <niemeyer> start() is a bad name as we have a hook with that name.. begin(), bake(), setup()
[12:05] <niemeyer> setup is also a bad name as that's what we've been doing before we call the method
[12:06] <niemeyer> .begin() is likely the better choice of those, as it has the feeling of "alright, we're ready and will start doing things now"
[12:07] <jam> initialize(Charm), instantiate(Charm), create(Charm), begin(Charm)
[12:07] <jam> charm = harness.begin(Charm)
[12:08] <jam> doesn't quite read naturally to me, but I could live with it. I do like it meaning the 'start of testing that I'm going to be doing'
[12:08] <niemeyer> harness = Harness(Charm)
[12:08] <niemeyer> harness.begin()
[12:08] <niemeyer> "harness = Harness(Charm)" is what we had agreed on the sprint, and still feels right to me
[12:09] <jam> ok
[12:09] <niemeyer> We can cover the reasons again once more, but let's do that in the call
[12:09] <niemeyer> I'm going to step out for lunch now
[12:10] <jam> np
[13:31]  * Chipaca running late
[15:22] <jam> Chipaca: niemeyer: patch updated. I went with meta as an __init__ parameter instead of set_meta because we need it for a default unit_name. There could be other ways around that (having the user supply an optional unit_name might be better).
[15:22] <jam> I did implement the 'look for metadata.yaml if not supplied', and added a test for it.
[15:23] <jam> It is a test that is 'impure' vs the rest of the tests. (Everything else is just python objects, but that involves manipulating the filesystem, and importlib stuff.)
[15:23] <jam> Anyway, EOD for me. Have a good afternoon/evening.
[15:23] <niemeyer> Thanks, have a good one
[18:33]  * Chipaca soft-EODs (need to pop back later to wrap up some things, but dinner now)


[00:34] <kkathman> Greetings folks - I wonder if I could get some help with my renewal?  I received an email saying that my status would end on Sunday, but the link to renewal sends me to a page that  simply says "Not allowed here"
[00:35] <kkathman> I think the problem could be that I have more than one login?
[00:42] <popey> kkathman: renewal to what?
[00:44] <kkathman> popey:  my ops status in kubuntu-offtopic
[00:45] <kkathman> Looks to be a standard launchpad kind of renewal, except it takes me to a page I can't access
[00:46] <Flannel> kkathman: Which page does it take you to?
[00:47] <kkathman> Flannel:  you want the URL?
[00:48] <Flannel> kkathman: Aye
[00:48] <kkathman> it sends me to:  https://launchpad.net/~kkathman/+expiringmembership/irc-kubuntu-offtopic-ops
[00:49] <kkathman> Then it simply says "Not Allowed Here"
[00:50] <Flannel> Hmm, well, that's the page it should send you to.  If you just go to launchpad.net are you logged in with your -verizon account? or just kkathman?
[00:50] <kkathman> it says in the upper right kkathman-verizon
[00:50] <Pici> Why would you need two launchpad accounts?
[00:51] <Flannel> Alright, try logging out and logging back in with just plain kkathman, then go to the URL it gave you
[00:51] <kkathman> which is weird, because I can login with<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and my password just fine
[00:51] <kkathman> Flannel...ok...will do
[00:51] <Flannel> kkathman: It sounds like you were trying to go to "kkathman"s page, with kkathman-verizon, which obviously, you're not allowed to do.
[00:52] <kkathman> well, it gives me an error- Invalid email
[00:52] <Flannel> I would think LP should say "You're not kkathman! please log in!" instead of just "not allowed", but such is the nature of launchpad.
[00:52] <Flannel> kkathman: You'll want to solve that then :)
[00:53] <Flannel> looks like the email for that account is at entdyn.com
[00:53] <kkathman> OH?
[00:53] <kkathman> hmm
[00:53] <kkathman> one sec then
[00:54] <Flannel> kkathman: You're the one with two accounts, you tell me :)
[00:55] <kkathman> Flannel:   That did it...many thanks :)
[00:56] <kkathman> One is much older than the other, and I think when they went to launchpad, it brounght that oldest one over, and I probably thought I needed to create a new one
[01:14] <marienz> that was a little abrupt, but I've been chasing after a wave of silly proxies
[01:14] <marienz> I'm fairly certain this was one of them
[01:17] <IdleOne> klines expire do they not?
[01:17] <marienz> yes
[01:17] <IdleOne> ok
[01:17] <IdleOne> thank you marienz
[01:18] <marienz> repeating what I said here right before you joined:
 that was a little abrupt, but I've been chasing after a wave of silly proxies
 I'm fairly certain this was one of them
[01:18] <marienz> that was referring to Alysia, but given the timing that other bunch was probably controlled by the same person
[01:19] <IdleOne> marienz: I was not questioning the kline itself
[01:19] <IdleOne> just wanted to let you know that
[01:20] <IdleOne> so anyway the ban I set on that same host. Will avoid the join/part flooding when the kline expires
[01:20] <marienz> bah, too many hilights going off
[01:20] <marienz> yep
[01:23] <jrib> marienz: k-lines expire automatically?  After how much time?
[01:24] <marienz> depends on the kline
[01:24] <marienz> (and some don't, but most do)
[01:27] <jrib> marienz: I see, thanks
[01:51] <rww> !attitude > manster_
[01:52]  * marienz sighs, noisy evening
[01:54] <jrib> that one was registered :/
[01:54] <marienz> which one?
[01:54] <rww> I was wondering. They showed up as unidentifed to me, but I guess they were registered on another nick, since they got through the +r.
[01:54] <Pici> No.
[01:55] <Pici> They answered the question properly in -unregged
[01:55] <rww> ffs
[01:55] <jrib> ah...
[01:55] <jrib> interesting
[01:56] <marienz> call me triggerhappy, but I'm just going to sit there and kline things fitting the pattern
[01:56] <marienz> some will still get through as I have to be a bit cautious for obvious reasons
[01:57] <marienz> and yes, there's a human behind the wheel of these, afaict, so it's going to get past that check in #-unregged
[01:58] <Pici> bleh
[01:58] <rww> I just switched the question set over, so we'll see.
[02:00] <marienz> this isn't hitting just you, btw, a larger number of what I'm assuming is the same bots hit a few wikipedia channels
[02:00] <marienz> (and one or two were in #freenode earlier)
[02:00]  * Pici doesn't feel special anymore
[02:00] <Pici> :P
[02:01] <IdleOne> marienz: I didn't know staff needed our approval for these types of things
[02:01]  * marienz blinks
[02:01] <marienz> if you think you need my approval for anything I must've worded something poorly
[02:01]  * IdleOne feels a little special
[02:01] <marienz> err, I read that backwards
[02:02] <marienz> can you clarify? :)
[02:02] <rww> nobody needs IdleOne's approval :(
[02:02] <marienz> in my defence: it's 3AM and I was planning to be asleep by now
[02:02] <IdleOne> you did read it backwards
[02:02] <IdleOne> rww: thanks for taking that special feeling I had for all of 15 seconds away
[02:03] <rww> yw
[02:03] <rww> marienz: Is it still going on in other channels?
[02:03] <marienz> it seems to have quieted down for the moment
[02:04] <marienz> I have reason to believe there's a few stragglers though
[02:05] <marienz> jrib: as for your earlier question about kline expiration: they frequently last a multiple of 1 day
 Join #Nationalsozialist now!   <--thought he was banned
[03:52] <bazhang> why is that even continuing?
[03:52] <Jordan_U> I don't know. I hope it will naturally end / move soon though.
[03:53] <bazhang> perhaps a mute -t600 would do
[03:53] <rww> and there it goes.
[03:53] <bazhang> heh. putting ass* as a highlight gets a lot of assume
[03:53] <Jordan_U> And MariaKeys' actual support question was an interesting one :(
[04:08] <rww> tonyyarusso: furthermore, stalker.pl comes up with "usbboot, ubufind, ubusammyn150, ubuwifi, uburediculous, ubuquake, ubufool"
[04:08] <rww> it's that ubu* person on va.comcast.net that pops up every so often ;)
[04:09] <tonyyarusso> ubuwifi's the only one I've seen before.
[04:10] <rww> they irritated me a month or two ago about something, so I keep an eye on them >.>
[04:14] <rww> grep -R psyBNC2 irclogs/freenode/#ubuntu is... interesting.
[04:23] <rww> DaGeek247 is now in PM complaining that I devoiced him because he likes his name being at the top of the userlist :|
[04:23] <tonyyarusso> lol
[04:23] <Flannel> rww: suggest he change his nick to aaaaaGeek247
[04:24]  * Flannel is amazed people even use userlists.
[04:24] <rww> done, though I think it sorts symbols first anyway ;P
[04:25] <Flannel> I can see it now, SOH SOH SOH SOH Geek247
[04:29] <rww> LOL, he did it.
[04:32] <rww> chocolaate-maan just CTCPed #ubuntu-women with that link, so they're now banforwarded over here from #ubuntu so I can see if I can get an explanation out of them if they rejoin #ubuntu.
[04:37]  * rww watches maco get highlights in -ot
[04:37] <maco> hi rww
[04:37] <maco> yup yup
[04:38] <rww> chocolaate-maan: Hello. Would you like to explain why you're wandering through #ubuntu* channels spamming a link to a sketchy looking URL?
[04:41] <rww> Actually, correction. Change "#ubuntu* channels" to a large number of freenode channels, if Google is anything to go by.
[04:51] <rww> elky: would you kindly remove chocolaate-maan from the channel?
[04:52] <rww> ta
[04:57] <Amaranth> rww: Yeah, he hit #compiz-dev too, oddly
[04:57] <Amaranth> Should probably contact staff
[05:01]  * rww lurks in #freenode, waiting for a staffer to speak
[05:03] <Jordan_U> Amaranth: Is compiz-dev logged publicly?
[05:03] <Amaranth> Jordan_U: I don't think so
[05:03] <Jordan_U> My guess is that this is just a way to get that link to show up in search results.
[05:04] <rww> that was my thought too
[05:04] <rww> but -women isn't either.
[05:11] <rww> ah, #freenode's been discussing it already. Including pasting the link. Because they're doing it wrong :|
[05:13] <Flannel> Why does everyone feel like spamming the guy with factoids
[05:13] <rww> oh fun, threatening to ban-evade
[05:14] <rww> and, because bot abuse is #ubuntu's favorite hobby.
[05:23] <rww> This bro-silliness was slightly amusing in an ironic way for about five minutes :|
[05:30] <elky> Oh yay, defocus has spilled in to -ot again?
[06:03] <rww> elky: PerfM? yeah, happened a couple of days ago.
[06:04] <elky> She got de-voiced in defocus a few days ago, I guess someone invited her over here :(
[06:05] <rww> I find -ot's repeated inability to grasp that politeness is a good thing amusing.
[06:07] <elky> You're mixing up your vocabulary again.
[06:08] <rww> oops, I said "amusing" when I meant "annoying" again. I should stop that.
[06:23]  * rww facepalms
[11:24] <bazhang> troll in -ot
[11:25] <Tm_T> you mean Lando Calrissian -lookalike
[11:25] <bazhang> yeppers
[11:27] <Tm_T> bah, didn't go as expected
[11:28] <bazhang> he's quoting blazing saddles, an american comedy
[11:29] <Tm_T> sorry, but I'm not in the mood
[11:29] <bazhang> hes bad news all around
[11:29] <Tm_T> also, food ->
[11:38] <Daviey> !regression-alert <-- I thought that was supposed to have a factoid.  :(
[11:38] <Daviey> !regression-alert
[11:38] <Daviey> ahhh!
[11:38] <bazhang> !recursion
[11:39] <bazhang> !recursion-#ubuntu-offtopic
[15:51] <raido> Ubnutu IRC mods, please take a look at the following discussion: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/147061
[15:51] <raido> I wold like to propose a change to the text that ubottu supplies when an inquiry is made regarding root access
[15:51] <raido> Perhaps we can limit the response to supplying the following link: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo#Enabling%20the%20root%20account
[15:51] <raido> !root is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo#Enabling%20the%20root%20account
[15:52] <LjL> how about no
[15:52] <LjL> of course everybody is free to do however they please
[15:52] <LjL> but that doesn't mean we're going to support that in the channel
[15:52] <LjL> or spoonfed how to do it
[15:53] <LjL> for that matter, that very RootSudo page has in the past had edit wars on whether to include the "sudo passwd" instructions or not
[15:54] <raido> LjL: I dont see how it compels anyone to provide support
[15:55] <IdleOne> it doesn't compel anyone to provide support but it gives the false impression to the user that if they follow that link then #ubuntu will support it.
[15:55] <IdleOne> use sudo -i if you really need extended root privs
[15:55] <LjL> not to mention that the *current* !root factoid is meant to provide information on how to do thing the right way, i.e. by using 'sudo'
[15:55] <LjL> which is why it links to the whole sudo page
[15:55] <LjL> instead, you want to link only to the specific instructions for enabling root? why?
[15:58] <raido> LjL: Whit I think is right is that if a user wants to enable root they should not be turned away, advice on sudu is great but the user should be free to use root if he wishes and why should we not show them how to do so?
[15:58] <LjL> but we do.
[15:58] <LjL> we already link to that page.
[15:59] <LjL> that page has a section on enabling root.
[15:59] <LjL> ergo, we show them how to enable root.
[15:59] <LjL> if they can't scroll down, then they won't find out how to enable root - too bad.
[16:00] <raido> LjL: the link is not the issue, its the statement by ubottu "We do not support setting a root password. Please don't offer instructions on how to set a root password or ask for help with setting it" that is my concern
[16:00] <IdleOne> raido: Think of it this way, you buy a car and want to install some Turbo booster thingy to increase engine performance. The manufacturer doesn't tell you that you can't but they do tell you that if you do the guarantee will be voided and they will not repair any damages to the engine if you make such changes.
[16:01] <raido> IdleOne: thats acceptable but current ubottu response differs from your argument
[16:01] <IdleOne> You can enable root, but #ubuntu will not help you repair it when you break stuff.
[16:02] <LjL> and i don't see why it should do that googling for you
[16:02] <LjL> of course #ubuntu usually doesn't tell you to google
[16:02] <raido> IdleOne: #Ubuntu isnt "required" to help with anything are they?
[16:02] <LjL> but if you're trying to hit yourself on the foot, then help yourself. that's what i think
[16:02] <IdleOne> correct
[16:03] <raido> LjL: Its about the users freedom. Hit self in foot once, one wont likely do it again. Thi is the precess of learning
[16:04] <LjL> the freedom argument is nonsense. the user is "free" to do whatever they want *with Ubuntu*
[16:04] <LjL> they're just not free to do whatever they want *with the channel*
[16:04] <IdleOne> raido: the support provided in #ubuntu is entirely voluntary but we do have rules and guidelines. You want to go and hit yourself in the foot, go ahead but we don't have to watch you do it or tell you how to do it.
[16:04] <raido> LjL: yes, so lets not have ubottu implu otherwise
[16:04] <raido> imply
[16:05] <IdleOne> I see nothing wrong with the factoid as is. I believe telling people we don't support it and not to ask how to do it is completely reasonable.
[16:05] <LjL> so ubottu doesn't even has to *say* it for you to feel bad about it, but merely *imply* it in your opinion?
[16:05] <LjL> seems a bit too much to me
[16:05] <raido> IdleOne: I agree, but do you not see something offensive in the ubbotu response?
[16:05] <LjL> no
[16:05] <IdleOne> no I don't
[16:05] <LjL> the ubottu response is a Matrix citation
[16:05] <LjL> it's supposed to be *fun*
[16:05] <LjL> perhaps some people should aquire a sense of humor
[16:05] <IdleOne> I see it as a clear WARNING.
[16:06] <raido> We do not support setting a root password. Please don't offer instructions on how to set a root password or ask for help with setting it
[16:06] <LjL> that's not !root, that's !noroot
[16:06] <raido> seems a bit more like bug off
[16:06] <IdleOne> !root
[16:06] <LjL> and it never says or implies that you cannot set root on your machine
[16:06] <LjL> it's just about the *channel*
[16:06] <IdleOne> !noroot
[16:07] <LjL> and !noroot was created because people would start endless arguments about it in #ubuntu and go offtopic
[16:07] <LjL> so that factoid was made to make these arguments stop
[16:08] <LjL> !no noroot is <reply> We do not support setting a root password. You're free to do it on your own machine, but please don't offer instructions on how to set a root password or ask for help with setting it. See !root and !wfm for more information.
[16:08] <LjL> there, if it's changed it doesn't imply anything anymore, states it clearly
[16:08] <IdleOne> !no noroot is <reply> We do not support setting a root password. You're free to do it on your own machine, but please don't offer instructions on how to set a root password or ask for help with setting it. See !root and !wfm for more information.
[16:08] <IdleOne> done
[16:08] <IdleOne> everybody happy ? :)
[16:09] <raido> Well, I understand the argument you make from the IRC op/mod perspective, Im suree you have debates it much. I just feel that the ubottu response is contrary to the liberation that free software affords its users, and I wish it didnt do that.
[16:10] <IdleOne> raido: the factoid the way it was before I just changed it did not say you couldn't set a root pass. All it said is we don't support it.
[16:10] <IdleOne> the WE being #ubuntu and all it's users who are expected to follow channel guidelines
[16:10] <tsimpson> you are free to do as you wish with your system, and our support people are free not to offer assistance when people do things they explicitly advise against
[16:10] <raido> Its better. And thank you for discussing it with me.
[16:10] <tsimpson> everyone has the freeness :)
[16:11] <IdleOne> raido: thank you and welcome
[16:11] <raido> Just curious, would a mod kick a user for giving such instructions in the #ubuntu on enabling root?
[16:11] <IdleOne> we would ask that they take the discussion elsewhere
[16:12] <raido> ok
[16:12] <IdleOne> but
[16:12] <IdleOne> if you don't move it elsewhere you might get removed
[16:12] <raido> fair enough
[16:13] <IdleOne> raido: also on irc mods are called ops
[16:14] <IdleOne> just saying :)
[16:15] <raido> tsimpson: yes, and thats what im hoping for, you know, new users will screw up their machines with things like root or otherwise, because they are newbies, but because they are newbies they also dont understand the full implication of free software use and the community at large needs to remember that and educate the new user on their new found freedoms.
[16:16] <raido> IdleOne: gotcha
[16:16] <ikonia> raido: people are being educated by being told not to use root
[16:16] <ikonia> using sudo is the correct ubuntu supported security model
[16:16] <ikonia> people are being helped by being told not to bypass it
[16:18] <raido> ikonia: yep, and thats a fine, its a design decision i dont disagree with
[16:19] <ikonia> great, so there we go, no problems
[16:20] <raido> cheers everyone
[16:30] <IdleOne> raido: Please don't sit idle in this channel.
[16:30] <IdleOne> I feel like such an hypocrite every time I ask someone not to idle in here
[16:30]  * IdleOne changes nick to NotIdleJustIdleOne
[16:37] <bazhang> I was going to say give him enough rope, but he's already gone
[17:15] <ikonia> the ubottu pm reminder system seems to be bugging recently, it's sending two reminders at a time for each reminder
[17:23] <jussi> ikonia: could you PM me with what you are getting?
[17:23] <ikonia> jussi: the normal reminder to follow up on a ban, but repeated twice
[17:24] <ikonia> nothing fancy,
[17:24] <jussi> ikonia: I suspect you are getting one for the remove and one for the ban?
[17:24] <ikonia> I've not removed the ban
[17:24] <ikonia> (I'll double check though)
[17:24] <jussi> ikonia: no, remove as in kick
[17:24] <ikonia> ah
[17:25] <ikonia> jussi: don't think so as the ban id is the same
[17:25] <ikonia> I'd expect it to be two different ID's if it was for a kick and a ban
[17:25] <jussi> yes, it should
[17:25] <IdleOne> is one a /notice and the other a /query?
[17:26] <ikonia> doesn't apper to be, just 2 pm's from ubottu straight after each othger
[17:26] <jussi> Ubottu shouldnt be noticing you (at least not currently)
[17:26] <IdleOne> jussi: what!?
[17:26] <jussi> yeah, I know ubottu, now shush
[17:26]  * IdleOne doesn't want notices from bot
[17:26] <jussi> IdleOne: hehe, thats a bit ambiguous...
[17:26]  * IdleOne pets ubottu
[17:27] <IdleOne> love you bot but don't notice me
[17:27] <jussi> ikonia: anyway, if you could give me the paste, then I can look up the nmber in th log (maybe, cant remeber what the log spits out at this second)
[17:28] <IdleOne> I have made a discovery about ubottu, less bans one sets is equal to less messages received from ubottu
[17:28] <ikonia> jussi: it's waiting for you
[17:29] <jussi> IdleOne: wow, you are smart today :P
[17:29] <jussi> !cookie | IdleOne
[17:29] <IdleOne> jussi: I took my meds :P
[17:29] <jussi> meh
[17:29] <jussi> slowbot today
[17:38] <jussi> Just a reminder, Ubuntu IRCC meeting in ~30 mins :=) (unless I screwed up my times)
[17:38] <tsimpson> ~22
[17:40] <jussi> lol
[18:43] <AlanBell> hi all, anyone had trouble with CourageTheCoward in the last week or so
[18:44] <IdleOne> AlanBell: let me check the ban tracker
[18:45] <ikonia> there was talk about this today I believe,
[18:45] <ikonia> my last log says I'm wrong though, so ignore that
[18:45] <IdleOne> AlanBell: I don't see anything in BT for that nick
[18:45] <AlanBell> ok, thanks
[18:47] <bazhang> thats nerml?
[18:47] <IdleOne> AlanBell: ^^
[18:48] <AlanBell> bazhang: not sure, he has rather a lot of nicks
[18:48] <bazhang> AlanBell, seems to be. bolt, nerml, catdog, etc
[18:48] <AlanBell> bazhang: yeah that is a garfield character
[18:49] <bazhang> AlanBell, one of his many, yes
[18:49] <bazhang> only odie has been spared
[18:49] <AlanBell> has nerml been +b or +q in the last month?
[18:49] <IdleOne> his current ip has nothing in BT
[18:49] <IdleOne> that I can see
[18:50] <bazhang> not in the last week. not sure about month
[18:51] <ikonia> bazhang: I believe arline has not been used
[18:52] <Picipod> Who is being discussed?
[18:52] <IdleOne> Pici: AlanBell> hi all, anyone had trouble with CourageTheCoward in the last week or so
[18:52] <ikonia> bolt/many_names
[18:52] <bazhang> Picipod, bolt of garfield fame
[18:52] <ikonia> jim davis, etc
[18:53] <Picipod> Ah. Doesn't ring a bell for me. But I can't check my logs here
[18:53] <AlanBell> garzooka/phineas/ferb etc
[18:53] <ikonia> the list of names is too many to remember
[19:03] <ikonia> hello raido
[19:03] <raido> hi
[19:03] <ikonia> how can we help ?
[19:04] <raido> Im all ok, thanks.
[19:04] <IdleOne> raido: we have a no idle policy.
[19:07] <AlanBell> ok, CourageTheCoward has been unbanned in -uk now
[19:08] <ikonia> AlanBell: give it a week, +b will be back
[19:28] <bazhang> perfm in -ot
[19:29] <rww> bazhang: did they get banned from there since I was last awake?
[19:29] <bazhang> perfm was pushing it severely rww but not banned afaik
[19:30] <rww> ah, fun.
[19:38] <rww> Can someone pastebin -meeting from the start of this hour to about 20 minutes past the hour, please?
[19:40] <KB1JWQ> Sure, which pastebin?
[19:40] <KB1JWQ> rww: ^^
[19:41] <rww> KB1JWQ: Whichever you like. Preferably one that doesn't have 100-character URLs, I'm in the console >.>
[19:41] <IdleOne> got it, gimme a sec
[19:42] <IdleOne> http://paste.ubuntu.com/573182/
[19:42] <rww> thanks much
[19:42] <IdleOne> no problem
[19:42] <KB1JWQ> http://pastebin.com/jvzrchDp
[19:42] <KB1JWQ> Doh.
[19:42] <KB1JWQ> I'm too slow.
[19:42] <IdleOne> KB1JWQ: :)
[19:43] <bazhang> heh me too
[19:43] <KB1JWQ> Had to navigate my log directory from crappy conference wireless.
[19:43] <KB1JWQ> On the plus side, now we figure out that IdleOne has been falsifying logs. :-D
[19:43] <bazhang> loads of "highlights" in that one
[19:43] <IdleOne> KB1JWQ: that isn't funny on any level
[19:43] <IdleOne> I have no reason to ever fake a log
[19:44] <KB1JWQ> Apologies, my sense of humor is a bit "off" today.
[19:44] <bazhang> the channel was like #ubuntu-sailors
[19:44] <IdleOne> no worries I knew you meant it as a joke but log readers will take that out of context
[19:44] <KB1JWQ> Ah, I keep forgetting this channel is logged publically.
[19:44] <IdleOne> indeed
[19:45] <bazhang> ikonia, you removing all your bans?
[19:46] <ikonia> pretty much
[19:47] <bazhang> perhaps we all should
[19:48] <IdleOne> ikonia: why?
[19:48] <IdleOne> those bans are really needed
[19:48] <bazhang> well reban if necessary
[19:48] <IdleOne> I mean there are probably some that can be removed but there are some that should stick
[19:49] <rww> IdleOne: then re-add them.
[19:49] <IdleOne> bazhang: good point
[19:49] <KB1JWQ> Didn't realize I'd set one that didn't auto-expire, that may be due to my client quitting (almost everything I do is time restricted).
[19:49] <KB1JWQ> I just pulled it.
[19:49] <ikonia> I don't believe they are valid any longer so I'm removing them
[19:49] <niko> ikonia: you doubled or tripled each unban i guess
[19:49] <ikonia> niko: few entries in BT are duplicate, cut and paste typos,
[19:50] <IdleOne> !canibeanop > KB1JWQ
[19:50] <rww> lol
[19:50] <IdleOne> hehe
[19:51] <IdleOne> might as well see what you need to become op
[19:51] <KB1JWQ> Hah, yeah.
[19:51] <KB1JWQ> "I CAN HAZ OPS PLZ?"
[19:51] <IdleOne> that way people don't say staff favors #ubuntu
[19:51] <niko> !canibeanop > niko
[19:51] <bazhang> overwork and grumpiness seems prerequisites
[19:52] <rww> the latter can be fixed by taking a break from the former :)
[19:52]  * IdleOne takes a break from the latter which in this case is the former
[19:53] <IdleOne> what!
[19:54] <rww> one hopes that Pici's stats graphs do /mode #ubuntu b and count, rather than subtracting one for each /mode #ubuntu -b
[19:54] <ikonia>  /join #ubuntu-bots-devel
[19:54] <ikonia> oops
[20:08] <Tm_T> hi genii
[20:08] <Tm_T> ...and good night everyone
[20:09] <bazhang> so jungli alabd and gobo are unbanned in #ubuntu
[20:09] <ikonia> yes
[20:09] <bazhang> the last was mine
[20:09] <ikonia> which one ?
[20:09] <bazhang> perhaps we should just clear them all
[20:10] <ikonia> sorry, which one did I do which was yours (apologies I was looking at the ones set with my cloak)
[20:10] <ikonia> I must have missed a line
[20:10] <bazhang> no worries, I think you have the right idea
[20:11] <rww> I note that you also removed<EMAIL_ADDRESS>which was mine, but I concur with bazhang.
[20:11] <ikonia> are you sure, I can put it back, simple mistake so many lines on screeen and a few don't tally up in BT
[20:11] <ikonia> rww: that's showing up in BT as mine ???
[20:11] <bazhang> if they are issues in the future we can re-ban
[20:11] <rww> ikonia: BT# 37293
[20:11] <ikonia> Hmmm I wonder if that's why it won't show up as unbanned in BT as you've banned it
[20:12] <rww> ikonia: yours was BT35027, note the difference in number of wildcards.
[20:12] <bazhang> we dont clear them out frequently enough
[20:12] <ikonia> rww: thank you
[20:12] <nhandler> bazhang: That was one of the main reasons I brought up adding eir
[20:13] <bazhang> I need to remove ass* as a highlight; everyone is saying assume today
[20:14] <nhandler> bazhang: Or adjust the hilight so it only matches on that exact word (not when it is part of a word)
[20:14] <bazhang> nhandler, yes, remove the * , good point
[20:17] <rww> ikonia: could you review your copypastes to make sure they're not actually on lines by themselves and echoing to channel, please?
[20:17] <ikonia> ok, I think that's them all
[20:17] <rww> ah, nvm then
[20:19] <KB1JWQ> Ugh, I can't imagine adding a list of profanity to my hilight list.  It'd drive me nuts. :-)
[20:19] <KB1JWQ> Too false positive prone.
[20:19] <bazhang> first time ever for me, today.
[20:20] <bazhang> in the past was only my nick, and BACON
[20:20] <rww> The only things on my highlight list are my nick and my firstlast (since I've used it as a nick). Anything else is spammy.
[20:20] <KB1JWQ> Let's see...
[20:20] <KB1JWQ> 54 hilights at the moment.
[20:20] <bazhang> yikes. I've got five
[20:21] <KB1JWQ> Well some might be useful-- I have a common forkbomb in there, for instance.
[20:21] <bazhang> well you actually knows things about linux :)
[20:21] <KB1JWQ> I get a LOT of false positives on die.net as well.
[20:22] <KB1JWQ> Apparently it's become a rather popular reference site.
[20:23] <KB1JWQ> I also hilight on ! followed by ops.
[20:38] <rww> I don
[20:38] <rww> 't do that, mainly because I'm ops on most of the channels I'm in :\
[20:50] <Flannel> Excuse me for being completely ignorant, but from what I understand, the features we're looking to gain through the use of eir (customizable nagging and customizable autoremove) seem to be easier to just add to ubottu, instead of the nightmare of merrying/integrating the two for comments/etc.
[20:55] <tsimpson> Flannel: no, it's not easier to add to ubottu, otherwise I'd have done so
[20:56] <tsimpson> eventually ubottu will do it, but why not use eir in the meantime
[20:56] <bazhang> natty has a root terminal item in the accessories list
[20:56] <Flannel> tsimpson: Because the integration with eir seems like it'd take just as long to do as adding that functionality to ubottu
[20:56] <rww> bazhang: so have previous devel releases. They clean up the menus later in the cycle than now.
[20:57] <bazhang> rww, and remove it, do you suppose?
[20:57] <rww> bazhang: yes, presuming it's not in maverick and lucid either
[20:57] <tsimpson> Flannel: it's not going to integrate with eir, it'll just notice the commands you give to eir and take comments from that
[20:58] <Flannel> tsimpson: er....
[20:58] <Flannel> tsimpson: so, any comments we want in eir need to be done in a channel?
[20:58] <bazhang> eir is replacing chanserv?
[20:58] <LjL> eir is ALIVE?
[20:59] <tsimpson> Flannel: if you want ubottu to automatically pick up the comment you give to eir
[20:59] <Flannel> tsimpson: Are we going to have a designated "spam channel" for that interface?
[20:59] <rww> that's suboptimal. Perhaps we need yet another -ops- channel for all these notices and commentings.
[20:59] <bazhang> #ubuntu
[20:59] <rww> lol
[20:59] <tsimpson> why not do it here?
[20:59] <Flannel> tsimpson: because this is publically logged, comments need not be.
[21:00] <tsimpson> well we do have our shiny new channel
[21:00] <LjL> you do already
[21:00] <LjL> then i guess i won't suggest (again) that you use OMSG/ONOTICE instead ;P
[21:00] <bazhang> the secret one
[21:01] <Flannel> so secret, we don't even know the name!
[21:01] <rww> /msg nickserv listchans ;P
[21:01] <bazhang> -ops-team
[21:01] <tsimpson> it was stated publicly in #ubuntu-meeting ;)
[21:01]  * rww was doing it anyway to find out whether he got added to #ubuntu+1 and #ubuntu-release-party's access lists, stumbled across it
[21:01] <tsimpson> you may need to /cs invite #ubuntu-ops-team to get in
[21:01] <rww> tsimpson: psh, who reads that!
[21:01] <bazhang> [Mootbot] knows
[21:01] <rww> (you do need to /cs invite, yes)
[21:02] <tsimpson> if you op yourself, you can set /mode +I $a:your_nickserv_account
[21:02] <LjL> it's ironic that the fact this channel is logged has, though it took a while, eventually resulted in more secrecy :P
[21:03] <bazhang> Mark Twain said something about that
[21:03] <Flannel> Now I have to figure out what window number that channel is going to have.  grumble.
[21:03] <rww> perhaps we can remove the no-idle policy and co-ordinate responses to bot attacks in there now ;P
[21:03]  * rww imagines that will happen sometime before heat death of universe
[21:04] <bazhang> hah
[21:04] <LjL> i think bot attacks stuff should still be done in -monitor, that's where the attacks are reported in the first place after all, and some ops might not be interested in those at all in the first place
[21:05] <bazhang> so commenting in here that a user is causing issues should now be done in the new channel?
[21:05] <LjL> let me answer that before someone else does: no
[21:05] <bazhang> good
[21:05] <LjL> if you want to, but not as a rule, please no
[21:07] <bazhang> so people with ops in core channels can be in there, ie the exact same makeup of this channel, minus ubuntulo1
[21:07] <LjL> you have this new channel - good, more choice for ops to decide where to say things, because each person is different about how they feel about saying things :) don't turn it into a "things absolutely must be done here/there and in this/that way" thing, that's my wish
[21:08] <rww> wiki page isn't a requirement for applying for channel ops any more, is it?
[21:09] <rww> IRCC meeting says no, OperatorRequirements says yes :\
[21:09] <LjL> why do you ask
[21:09] <LjL> do you intend NOT to have a shiny wiki page?
[21:09] <rww> because I'm about to apply for some channel ops
[21:09] <LjL> are you CRAZY?
[21:09] <rww> and yes, I intent to not have a shiny wiki page.
[21:09] <LjL> STONE HIM
[21:10]  * rww double-checks meeting log, decides meeting log is right and someone just forgot, edits OperatorRequirements boldly
[21:10] <LjL> what do you think this is, some free encyclopedia?
[21:11] <rww> Internal Server Error!
[21:11] <LjL> teaches you to be bold
[21:11]  * rww hits refresh, beats wiki.ubuntu.com
[21:11]  * rww trots off to apply for some channelz
[21:15] <tsimpson> rww: you know *!*@ubuntu/member/* has access in -meeting?
[21:16] <niko> but not ubuntu.member.* :)
[21:17] <tsimpson> not yet, but we plan to fix that
[21:17] <rww> tsimpson: I did not. Never mind that one then.
[21:17] <rww> umm, doesn't that give ubuntu/member/* +v rights in here, since #ubuntu-meeting is a core channel?
[21:17] <rww> or is that just named ops
[21:17] <LjL> perhaps in a Kafkian world
[21:17] <LjL> which this one isn't, right?
[21:18] <tsimpson> rww: just named ops, not masks
[21:18] <rww> yay
[21:18] <rww> LjL: I'm sorry, I was under the impression that rules nitpicking was a time-honored tradition and favored activity of some of our ops. I will stop trying to fit in ;P
[21:20]  * rww wishes nickserv was magical and listchans parsed masks
[21:20] <LjL> rww: you can try to fit in, but that'll peel much of your skin off. and then i'll come and rub it with chilli pepper. your choice.
[22:33] <MadHaTTer_777> hello im hoping to get unbanned from the ubuntu room i will behave i cant gurantee i wont use txt type but i8ll try in that room
[22:35] <highvoltage> e/win 28
[22:35] <MadHaTTer_777> ?
[22:37] <MadHaTTer_777> anyone there that would care to look at unbanning mer?
[22:38] <LjL> please be patient
[22:38] <MadHaTTer_777> ok
[22:38] <LjL> i'm not an op in #ubuntu, you will have to wait for someone who is
[22:38] <LjL> ideally the one who banned you in the first place
[22:38] <MadHaTTer_777> ok thanks
[22:41] <MadHaTTer_777> matt you there?
[22:44] <MadHaTTer_777> not sure who banned me... either ikonia, Tm_T, or LjL
[22:45] <LjL> certainly not i
[22:45] <MadHaTTer_777> ok
[22:48] <MadHaTTer_777> can you look that up for me so i know who i need to talk to??
[22:48] <popey> @btlogin
[22:48] <LjL> actually no, i don't have access to that
[22:50] <popey> seems you were originally kicked frmo #ubuntu for repeatedly being silly with the bot
[22:50] <MadHaTTer_777> My guess is Ikonia so its going to be a long wait because he told me not to PM him.
[22:50] <MadHaTTer_777> yeah sounds about right popey
[22:51] <popey> no, mneptok kicked you originally, not ikonia
[22:51] <MadHaTTer_777> holy i didnt even remember that name
[22:51] <popey> then when you came here to dispute / resolve your kick you weren't exactly helpful.
[22:52] <MadHaTTer_777> yeah its been a while but sounds about right
[22:52] <popey> 17th feb
[22:52] <MadHaTTer_777> whats today?
[22:53] <MadHaTTer_777> really its only been 10 days?
[22:53] <popey> yes
[22:54] <popey> I would come back another time, during the USA weekday daytime would probably catch most people
[22:54] <MadHaTTer_777> ive flown across the country and back and taken what i considered a long break from the computer
[22:54] <MadHaTTer_777> amazing only 10 days
[22:55] <MadHaTTer_777> i could have sworn it had been over a month
[22:55] <popey> hmm
[22:56] <popey> it seems you've been using various MadHaTTer_XXX names
[22:56] <MadHaTTer_777> i guess thats what i get for being a computer geek with no sence of time
[22:56] <MadHaTTer_777> yes
[22:56] <popey> I missed that
[22:56] <popey> in which case on Feb 16th the first kick was indeed from ikonia after you were asked to tone down your language
[22:56] <MadHaTTer_777> something wrong with that?
[22:57] <MadHaTTer_777> ahh
[22:58] <popey> well it seems like you're also evading bans
[22:58] <popey> by changing nickname to avoid the bans already put in place
[22:58] <MadHaTTer_777> yeah my current chat client has me put in sercondary names and sometimes im chatting on multiple computers with different IPś at random
[22:59] <MadHaTTer_777> oh i wasnt trying to evade
[23:00] <popey> Anyway, as I said, come back during daylight USA hours.
[23:01] <MadHaTTer_777> i have my regular modem one i built a antenna for and my phone they all have different qualities and i change up depending on the weather
[23:01] <MadHaTTer_777> the names thing sometimes it doesnt log me out properly so i get the name already in use and switch to another number
[23:02] <MadHaTTer_777> daylight usa hours it is isnt it?
[23:02] <popey> during the working week I said.
[23:03] <MadHaTTer_777> ohh ok i kind of was hoping to get this resolved today
[23:05] <popey> They dont seem to be active right now.
[23:06] <MadHaTTer_777> ill wait Ikonia usually comes on every day
[23:06] <MadHaTTer_777> ive spoken to him several times since the ban
[23:07] <popey> we have a no idle policy here, please come back tomorrow
[23:07] <MadHaTTer_777> ok
[23:08] <MadHaTTer_777> how about later instead of tomarrow
[23:08] <popey> Well, it's 23:08 in the UK where ikonia lives, so yeah, tomorrow, later today, basically in about 10 or more hours
[23:09] <MadHaTTer_777> yeah it will onluy be midnight here thank you much for your help popey
[23:09] <popey> np


[00:11] <teward> um............
[00:11] <teward> wxl: any idea why i'm not seeing ISOs other than alternate for Lubuntu Daily?
[00:13] <teward> phillw: that test for the shutdown thing, that's from the live environment, right?
[00:13] <teward> both amd64 and i386?
[00:13]  * teward needs that bug again
[00:13] <phillw> teward: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/351/builds shows them all to me. Jeeze, you and iso tracker seem to have really fallen out!!!
[00:14] <teward> phillw: not the tracker, the sync locations
[00:14] <phillw> teward: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/casper/+bug/1447038
[00:14] <teward> hmm
[00:15] <teward> phillw: i'm gonna see if I can't get in touch with someone at Canonical. the cdimage server doesn't show me everything apparently and it's derping
[00:16] <phillw> teward: I'm not too sure how high priority traffic the daily builds are for syncing. afaik, we were always told to get them from the build server.
[00:16] <teward> mmm
[00:16] <teward> well
[00:17] <phillw> and then the 'news' sites would issue it's link and cripple it.
[00:17] <teward> the ISO tracker points to cdimage.ubuntu.com
[00:17] <teward> which is where i'm trying to pullf rom :/
[00:17] <teward> i think i'll poke balloons and see if they can get me in touch with canonical IS to do some debugging
[00:17] <phillw> teward: indeed
[00:17] <teward> phillw: confirmed the won't shutdown issue on 20160129, BUT if you hit the "Enter" key it will shut off
[00:18]  * teward remembers that the GUI prompts from 14.04 and 15.10 ask to hit "Enter" to verify media removal
[00:18] <phillw> in the meantime, if you need any - prod me and I'll pull them to phillw.net
[00:21] <teward> phillw: got a system to test with?
[00:21] <teward> VBox perhaps?
[00:21]  * teward needs you to do a test
[00:21] <teward> or is simon alive
[00:21] <phillw> teward: tsimonq2 is alive :)
[00:22] <teward> good, then i'm stealing him again
[00:22] <teward> tsimonq2: ping, time to look alive :)
[00:22] <phillw> I'm still only KVM at the mo.
[00:22] <teward> ack
[00:22] <tsimonq2> *yawn*
[00:22] <teward> tsimonq2: you look like you need coffee :P
[00:22] <tsimonq2> not at dad's, can't do the VMs, sorry
[00:22] <teward> ok
[00:22] <tsimonq2> s/not//
[00:23]  * phillw mutters, curses and installs vBox .....
[00:23]  * teward ignites phillw's vBox with evil
[00:28] <teward> phillw: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/casper/+bug/1447038/comments/25
[00:28] <teward> i'm able to get it past that step
[00:28] <teward> by hitting "Enter"
[00:29] <teward> so... :P
[00:29] <phillw> teward: which iso are you using?
[00:30] <teward> phillw: 20160129 Lubuntu Desktop Live
[00:30] <teward> both amd64 and i386
[00:30] <teward> updating to 0130 now
[00:30] <teward> note that i remember what the other releases' ISOs prompt for :P
[00:31] <teward> hence why i thought i'd poke/test
[00:31] <teward> at least, with latest VMware, the "Enter" gets to the prompt.
[00:31] <teward> s/prompt/system/
[00:31] <phillw> teward: okies, I'm still on the a2's ... let me refresh
[00:31] <teward> ack
[00:31] <teward> phillw: i don't have alpha 2, if only 'cause i can't find that milestone on the tracker
[00:31] <teward> maybe my system hates me
[00:31] <teward> but i always try and test dailies heh
[00:32] <teward> A2 would take an eon to download right now though
[00:32] <phillw> teward: those are on my phillw.net just for you :P
[00:32] <teward> :P
[00:37] <teward> works with 20160130 too, my hitting "Enter" at the 'not shutting down' and 'hanging' step at the end
[00:37] <teward> though the splash indeed does not show
[00:37] <phillw> teward: oops... just asked zysnc to replace my current desktop-amd64 image which is ubuntu-mate with lubuntu..... then I worked out why it wanted to take so long!!!
[00:37] <teward> so nobody knows to actually hit the "Enter" button
[00:37] <teward> phillw: heheh fail
[00:37] <phillw> teward: I've mv-d my -- ones mack
[00:37] <phillw> l-
[00:41] <phillw> teward: what version of VBox are you using?
[00:41] <teward> none
[00:41] <teward> VMware
[00:41] <phillw> oh, ffs
[00:41] <teward> so test it in vbox :P
[00:42] <teward> i can do the VMware tests but the VBox tests are also important :)
[00:42] <teward> i'm probably one of the few who uses VMware Workstation because i have it, over VBox
[00:42] <phillw> teward: "A newer version of vbox are available directly from vbox...." ... sod it... I'll go get that one.
[00:42] <teward> *chuckles*
[00:43] <phillw> teward: rules are we use the latest version :D
[00:43] <teward> indeed
[00:43] <teward> and i'm on the latest VMware Workstation :)
[00:44] <phillw> teward: if VBox new version works, there is still time to get it into 16.04
[00:45] <phillw> which would make a lot of sense for an LTS rather than SRU's
[00:45] <teward> mhm
[00:49] <phillw>   Version 5.0.14 r105127
[00:51] <phillw> teward: -rw------- 1 phillw phillw  892338176 Jan 30 16:37 xenial-desktop-amd64.iso
[00:51] <phillw> is that the one you have?
[00:57] <phillw> teward: ??
[00:58] <teward> yep
[00:59] <phillw> okies.. starting
[01:46] <wxl> teward: did you figure out your problem with the isos?
[01:47] <teward> wxl: nope
[01:47] <teward> i just did the roundabout way of getting ISOs
[01:47] <teward> use one of my servers to download
[01:47] <teward> then download from the server
[01:47] <tsimonq2> teward: or a cdimage mirror?
[01:47] <teward> then nuke
[01:47] <wxl> cuz i see them all
[01:47] <wxl> well on the tracker
[01:48] <wxl> but the alternates are on cdimage
[01:48] <wxl> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily/current/
[01:48] <wxl> i think you need more coffee teward
[01:49] <tsimonq2> wxl: yeah we need to overnight teward coffee, 5 gallons of it
[01:50] <teward> could just wire me $25
[01:50] <teward> that gives me 5 lattes
[01:50] <teward> which is... what, about 15 cups of coffee worth of caffeine >:D
[02:03] <phillw> teward: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Death-Wish-Coffee-Strongest-Organic/dp/B006CQ1ZHI Oh, and it has sold out!!!!
[02:05] <teward> in the UK it is
[02:05] <teward> not here
[02:05] <teward> :P
[02:05] <phillw> he he :P
[02:06] <wxl> http://www.drugs.com/monograph/caffeine-caffeine-and-sodium-benzoate-injection-caffeine-citrate.html
[02:06] <phillw> there are stronger ones here, also - but not fair trade ones.
[02:10] <teward> :P
[02:27] <tsimonq2> !offtopic
[02:30] <phillw> tsimonq2: So, you now have learned that one of the most important things for development and testing is coffee :)
[02:30] <tsimonq2> !offtopic | phillw
[02:30] <tsimonq2> :P
[02:30] <phillw> tsimonq2: I will not tell you again.
[02:31] <tsimonq2> phillw: tell me what? that your conversations are offtopic? :P
[02:31] <teward> don't be so rigid with the rules
[02:31]  * teward drags tsimonq2 into the river
[02:31] <teward> anyways, i'll do more testing tomorrow

[17:40] <tsimonq2> phillw: bug 1419384 says that the LightDM testcase is a little unclear...since you have VM access could you confirm that this testcase is outdated?
[18:50] <tsimonq2> wxl, phillw: In Xenial the lubuntu-desktop metapackage is broken
[18:51] <phillw> tsimonq2: which one?
[18:57] <tsimonq2> phillw: well in a minimal install, sudo apt install lubuntu-desktop throws dep errors
[18:59] <phillw> tsimonq2: it is likely a mis-match in the repos. for alternate image ISO it uses tasksel to actually pull that meta-package :)
[19:00] <phillw> tsimonq2: sad, I'm a geek when it comes to that part :P
[19:00] <Unit193> tsimonq2: Well?  Going to spit out the error soon?
[19:00] <Unit193> Also,  apt-get install lubuntu-desktop^ next time.
[19:01] <tsimonq2> Unit193: apt works just fine, Unit193
[19:02] <tsimonq2> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
[19:02] <tsimonq2>  lubuntu-desktop : Depends: cups-driver-gutenprint
[19:02] <tsimonq2>                    Depends: usb-modeswitch but it is not going to be installed
[19:02] <tsimonq2> E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
[19:02] <Unit193> You clearly missed the point, but meh.
[19:03] <phillw> (19:02:17) tsimonq2: E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
[19:03] <Unit193> Those both appear to be in the repo, hm.
[19:03] <phillw> ask Synaptic Package Manager to fix your broken packages.
[19:04] <phillw> I'll go grab todays alt image and spin it up onto a VM
[19:04] <tsimonq2> but lubuntu-core works
[19:08] <phillw> tsimonq2: my best guess is that it is at the stage https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing/PartialUpgrades
[19:08] <phillw> this means the repos are out of sync.
[19:10] <phillw> Leave it a few hours and it will most likely behave. As I said, the alt image depends on that meta-package, so it is unlikely to stay broken for too long.
[19:10] <tsimonq2> phillw: it's been like that for the past week, so I did wait
[19:10] <tsimonq2> week or more
[19:11] <phillw> tsimonq2: okies... I'll go have a dig :)
[19:14] <phillw> tsimonq2: so, following https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/MinimalInstall#Method
[19:23] <phillw> tsimonq2: ??
[19:28] <phillw> tsimonq2: poke....
[19:55] <phillw> tsimonq2: is the test case https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/MinimalInstall#Method ?
[19:57] <tsimonq2> phillw: oh what?
[19:57] <tsimonq2> sorry
[19:57] <phillw> (18:50:45) tsimonq2: wxl, phillw: In Xenial the lubuntu-desktop metapackage is broken
[19:57] <phillw> (18:51:33) phillw: tsimonq2: which one?
[19:57] <phillw> (18:57:19) tsimonq2: phillw: well in a minimal install, sudo apt install lubuntu-desktop throws dep errors
[20:00] <tsimonq2> phillw: no I didn't use that, already wiped the VM, sorry
[20:04] <tsimonq2> phillw: no I didn't use that, already wiped the VM, sorry
[20:05] <phillw> tsimonq2: so what test case do you use?
[20:08] <tsimonq2> phillw: I wasn't following a test case, I just get an image and install the packages
[20:08] <tsimonq2> phillw: I don't have to refer to any guide
[20:09]  * tsimonq2 is proud of that
[20:11] <phillw> tsimonq2: so you have no test case for anyone to follow to replicate your reported bug? I'd not be proud of that, I'd call that a fail at the most basic level of bug reporting ..... "Make sure someone can reproduce it"... But, that's maybe me being old fashioned as to how we verify bugs.
[20:12] <tsimonq2> phillw: I meant I don't have to refer to anything to install the metapackage
[20:12] <tsimonq2> phillw: so I can write something up if need be, but I don't refer to any documentation while doing it
[20:12] <tsimonq2> that's what I meant :)
[20:14] <phillw> tsimonq2: well, there is the actual test case. It's not just a metaphorical thought up test case, it is actually what the instructions a person using the netboot iso will be following.
[20:15] <tsimonq2> phillw: but yet are those easy to find? that's the first time I have seen them...
[20:17] <phillw> tsimonq2: if you start at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/GetLubuntu you will it at #9 in the contents section. We do it that way so people can find it.
[20:18] <tsimonq2> alright
[20:21] <phillw> tsimonq2: and you can ask why http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/351/builds/111349/downloads amd64 version reports a 404 error, thus meaning I cannot test if lubuntu-desktop from minimal install does, or does not work.
[20:32] <tsimonq2> phillw: bug 1418488
[20:36] <phillw> ::SIGH::
[20:39] <phillw> tsimonq2: found it :P http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/xenial/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/
[20:40] <phillw> I'll have a play a bit later :)


[11:33] <minasota> what do you all think about this scrip?  https://github.com/Nyr/openvpn-install
[16:04] <Juzzy> what are you wanting to do?
[16:06] <minasota> setup a vpn. I've configured several, this script makes it easy
[16:06] <minasota> just curious how secure it is. I use different settings and never tried pki before
[16:08] <minasota> I also didn't like that the script didn't give any feedback on ufw or iptables changes
[16:19] <minasota> I've always created a "keys" dir in /easy-rsa and used dh2048.pem
[16:24] <minasota> But reviewing the script, everything looks good, just a different cert approach
[16:52] <minasota> btw, happy 4th everyone
[22:54] <cyberanger> Happy 4th minasota


[14:52] <OvenWerks> Iamthehuman12: I think if you change line 355 in /usr/bin/convert-studio-controls from if good_dev[0:3] == 'USB' and good_dev[3].isdigit(): to if len(good_dev) > 3 and good_dev[0:3] == 'USB' and good_dev[3].isdigit():
[14:52] <OvenWerks> this may solve your problem... well at least part way
[20:21] <OvenWerks> Iamthehuman1: did you see my earlier post?
[20:22] <OvenWerks> (about 7 hours ago)
[20:39] <OvenWerks> Iamthehumanthere seem to be three of you now