[18:47] <davef> I'm afraid I'll be unable to pursue anyone with a box of jaffa cakes at this time. I messed up my knee last weekend slipping on ice, putting me out of action.
[20:08]  * zxmpi puts the rc box of jaffa cakes project on the back burner
[20:08] <zxmpi> hope you have a speedy recovery
[20:38] <daftykins> davef: oh noooo! wishing the same
[21:08] <penguin42> davef: I thought the advice was to walk like a penguin....
[21:41] <davef> slowly recovering.
[21:41] <davef> and yes, i walk kinda like a penguin right now.


[12:17] <slave_blocker> hello good day
[12:17] <slave_blocker> a network namespace called replay should be capped on the local port range to include only sip
[12:17] <slave_blocker> i changed the /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_local_port_range but it does nothing
[12:17] <slave_blocker> please help
[12:18] <slave_blocker> im running ubuntu server 20.04
[12:18] <slave_blocker> its about a direct ip call project i have
[12:19] <slave_blocker> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/slave-blocker/voider_2/main/tiefer.png
[12:19] <slave_blocker> i fooled conntrack by sending my sip invites through a namespace called replay
[12:21] <slave_blocker> at the callee side the packets also land in the replay namespace
[12:21] <slave_blocker> and there they are replayed by scapy
[12:22] <slave_blocker> when the callee phone answers it goes through his namespace, and there conntrack sets a source port unexpectedly for me
[12:22] <slave_blocker> im trying to hack that behaviour out please help


[09:35] <mtj> hi folks, i have a bug i would like to fix, and would like some advice
[09:35] <mtj> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libcgi-compile-perl/+bug/1927882
[09:35] -ubottu:#ubuntu-motu- Launchpad bug 1927882 in libcgi-compile-perl (Ubuntu) "Regression in libcgi-compile-perl 0.24-1 in Ubuntu Focal" [Undecided, Confirmed]
[09:39] <mtj> ..whats the best way to get libcgi-compile-perl 0.25 into focal?
[09:44] <mtj> good news is that the problem is fixed in jammy
[09:45] <mtj> ..but focal is still broken :/
[09:45] <mtj> https://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/packaging-new-software.html
[09:46] <mtj> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
[09:48] <schopin> mtj: this is not a new package, but an update to an existing one, you're looking for this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[09:56] <mtj> schopin: many thanks
[09:56] <schopin> mtj: basically you need to justify the update, prepare the upload, and find a sponsor. I don't think we're very good at actually processing the sponsoring queue (I know I'm not, at least).
[09:58] <mtj> hmm, from reading the actual bug report, i dont have enough info to document a failure - other than making the test suite fail
[09:59] <mtj> perhaps thats a good enough demonstration?
[10:00] <mtj> https://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/fixing-ftbfs.html
[10:01] <schopin> If the package is FTBFS that's a fairly good argument to fix it, yes :)
[10:01] <mtj> i think this is a FTBFS situation
[10:01] <mtj> snap
[10:01] <schopin> Otherwise you could extract the test that demonstrates the failure into a self-contained perl script.
[10:01] <mtj> ah, yep
[10:03] <schopin> For impact and what could go wrong, it's often a good idea to look at reverse-dependencies of the package. There's a handy tool for that in ubuntu-dev-tools: reverse-depends
[10:07] <schopin> mtj: I just tried, and the package presently in focal currently builds fine, so it's not technically a FTBFS. I'm guessing what you meant was that along with the fix you added a test in the test suite?
[10:09] <mtj> hmm, ok
[10:10] <mtj> i now see i get a pass running ./Build test - rather than prove -v
[10:11] <mtj> that solves a mystery of how 0.24 got into debian unstable
[10:11] <mtj> https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/libcgi-compile-perl
[10:33] <mtj> hmm, i dont think i can find a trivial way to show a failure here - i might have to leave this
[10:48] <mtj> plan b, whats the chance of getting libcgi-compile-perl 0.25 backported to focal-backports?
[11:18] <schopin> mtj: can't you just compile two sample projects and assert that they're in separate packages?
[11:19] <schopin> If the package is broken, it should definitely be fixed in -updates IMHO. Backports should be to get new features.
[11:36] <mtj> schopin: hmm, my problem is finding a 'sample project' that fails on 0.24
[11:38] <mtj> i have one, but the steps to install, and provoke a failure is somewhat complex
[11:39] <mtj> https://github.com/Koha-Community/Koha/commit/4a3049a8be8dc2d22eac796521a4185f1248282a
[11:39] -ubottu:#ubuntu-motu- Commit 4a3049a in Koha-Community/Koha "Bug 28302: Forbid CGI::Compile 0.24"
[11:39] <mtj> https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=28302
[11:39] -ubottu:#ubuntu-motu- bugs.koha-community.org bug 28302 in Koha "Koha does not work with CGI::Compile 0.24" [Major, Closed: Fixed]
[11:41] <mtj> koha has provided 0.25 in its own apt repo, so probem is fixed for focal systems there
[11:48] <mtj> seems to be a horrible bug - test suite passes ok, yet bug subtley glitches your web app :/


[00:40] <robsn> hello
[00:43] <knome> hello.
[00:47] <robsn> does anyone here know, if and when the "file-rename-bug" in thunar will be fixed?
[00:48] <Unit193> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512120
[00:49] <Wayward_Vagabond> Trying to get my new xenial install setup, I can't figure out how to make the applications menu be a single row again
[00:50] <Wayward_Vagabond> What it's opening is more like a window that can atually be resized than a drop down menu
[00:53] <Wayward_Vagabond> OKay, the second colum to the left seems to be where 'contents' apear instead of another menu to the right branching off
[00:54] <robsn> thx
[01:06] <Wayward_Vagabond> Anybody know how to get it back to acting like a standard drop down menu?
[01:12] <krytarik> Wayward_Vagabond: That's the conventional "Applications Menu" in the items to add to the panel.
[01:17] <Wayward_Vagabond> Yeah, I just figured that out on the other machine. "whisker menu" is what the other default one is called
[01:17] <Wayward_Vagabond> been a while since I've setup somethimg fro scratch
[02:39] <xubuntu54w> How do I download Xubuntu? I can't figure it out. I'm at http://xubuntu.org/release/16-04/
[02:40] <Unit193> http://xubuntu.org/getxubuntu/
[02:43] <xubuntu54w> OK, that gave me a 48.7 kB .torrent file & computer (W10) wants to know what to open it with?
[03:02] <xubuntu54w> have to go, will work on it more tomorrow / thank you
[06:14] <kedalu> how do I remove those "minimize, maximize and close" button on the window.
[06:16] <Unit193> In xfwm4-settings you can pick which ones to show.
[06:17] <Unit193> I'm going to pretend you found that, thus no longer needed the answer and left.


[00:05] <Blinkiz> Hi. I can't get the new option about encrypting my home dir with ecryptfs to work in latest jaunty iso. I have downloaded todays live-iso and at startup, I put in user-setup/encrypt-home=true. Problem is that no new options have come up under the installation. I followed the guide here: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/02/jaunty-encrypted-home-directories.html . What can be wrong?
[00:17] <Blinkiz> Found it. Its kind of a bug. Before you have chosen any of the two options, "log in automatically" or "require a password to log in", the third (new) option is not visible. Even when clicking on any of these two visible on, the third one does not appear. But a side rolling bar comes up that allows you to roll down and now the new option is visible. Clearly a bug. Sad that launchpad is down at the moment.. jeje. Letting you guys know in th
[00:17] <Blinkiz> is channel. My screen size is 1680x1050.
[00:19] <Blinkiz> Oh, btw, nice feature! Installing it on my girlfriends computer to try it out. Me? No, she has to test it first :P
[11:38] <CIA-28> partman-base: cjwatson * r147 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog debian/partman-base.templates init.d/parted): (log message trimmed)
[11:38] <CIA-28> partman-base: * Rewrite handling of mounted partitions. If the only thing mounted on a
[11:38] <CIA-28> partman-base:  disk is the installation medium and it uses more or less the whole disk,
[11:38] <CIA-28> partman-base:  then silently exclude that disk (LP: #347916); if the installation
[11:38] <CIA-28> partman-base:  medium is mounted but doesn't use the whole disk, issue a warning that
[11:38] <CIA-28> partman-base:  partitioning may be difficult; if anything else is mounted, offer to
[11:38] <CIA-28> partman-base:  unmount it.
[11:39] <ogra> wordy commit :)
[11:44] <cjwatson> and CIA truncated it too
[11:44] <cjwatson> superm1: FYI, partman/filter_mounted is going away; I hope you won't actually need it any more, but see the full changelog for partman-base r147
[11:49] <CIA-28> partman-auto: cjwatson * r283 ubuntu/ (debian/changelog lib/auto-shared.sh):
[11:49] <CIA-28> partman-auto: Exclude devices containing the installation medium from automatic
[11:49] <CIA-28> partman-auto: partitioning (LP: #347916). Requires partman-base 129ubuntu5 for this
[11:49] <CIA-28> partman-auto: change to work properly.
[11:55] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3165 ubiquity/ (7 files in 5 dirs):
[11:55] <CIA-28> ubiquity: Display a warning on the advanced partitioning screen if the
[11:55] <CIA-28> ubiquity: installation medium is mounted but not filling the whole disk, so that
[11:55] <CIA-28> ubiquity: the disk containing it is still offered for partitioning (LP: #347916).
[12:05] <CIA-28> partman-base: cjwatson * r148 ubuntu/debian/po/ (64 files): debconf-updatepo
[12:10] <ogra> damned .. ubiquity goes to the configure_bootloader step just fine now, but flash-kernel fails (well, isnt installed at all)
[12:10] <cjwatson> I thought I made it a dependency
[12:11] <ogra> i thought it calls apt-install
[12:11] <ogra> (without any evidence indeed, just an assumption)
[12:11] <cjwatson> ubiquity's supposed to depend on it so that it doesn't have to actually install it
[12:11] <ogra> ah
[12:12] <ogra> its not in .manifest
[12:12] <cjwatson> ogra: what does 'dpkg-architecture -qDEB_HOST_ARCH_CPU' say on this machine?
[12:13]  * ogra installs dpkg-dev
[12:14] <ogra> arm
[12:14] <cjwatson> grah
[12:14] <ogra> and i dont see flash-kernel in the deps btw
[12:14] <cjwatson> can you show me the output of dpkg-architecture without arguments?
[12:14] <cjwatson> yes yes, it's not in the dependencies because DEB_HOST_ARCH_CPU wasn't what I expected
[12:15] <ogra> http://paste.ubuntu.com/142724/
[12:16] <cjwatson> how confusing. ok, will fix
[12:17] <ogra> yeah
[12:17] <ogra> i dont know why the "arm" is set here
[12:17] <ogra> doesnt make much sense
[12:18] <cjwatson> the CPU is indeed arm
[12:18] <ogra> well
[12:18] <cjwatson> so I think it's correct, it was just unexpected
[12:18] <ogra> its says armel everywhere else
[12:18] <cjwatson> it's fine as it is
[12:18] <cjwatson> can we not have a bikeshed about this now?
[12:19]  * ogra resets the board and retries with flash-kernel installed in advance
[12:19]  * StevenK resists the urge to comment "No, blue! Ohh, purple!"
[12:19] <StevenK> Oh, wait.
[12:20] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3166 ubiquity/debian/ (changelog rules):
[12:20] <CIA-28> ubiquity: On armel, DEB_HOST_ARCH=armel but DEB_HOST_ARCH_CPU=arm. Check
[12:20] <CIA-28> ubiquity: DEB_HOST_ARCH rather than DEB_HOST_ARCH_CPU.
[12:20] <ogra> technically purple is a shade of blue though
[12:20] <ogra> just some red in it :)
[12:20] <StevenK> ogra: It's all bikeshedding :-P
[12:20] <ogra> heh
[12:20] <cjwatson> ogra: ^- should fix it, anyway
[12:21] <ogra> yep
[12:25] <ogra> hmm, that wont get me flash-kernel-installer indeed ...
[12:25] <cjwatson> err
[12:25] <cjwatson> flash-kernel-installer is built into ubiquity
[12:25] <ogra> already ?
[12:25] <cjwatson> ubiquity can't depend on udebs, so it incorporates them instead
[12:25] <cjwatson> yes
[12:26] <ogra> ah, good
[12:26] <ogra> i thought that depends on the dep
[12:31] <ogra> cjwatson, the two radio buttons not having text on the user credentials page in ubiquity is a known fact i assume ?
[12:31] <ogra> (the two ones at the bottom)
[12:32]  * ogra actually scrolled down for the first time on that page
[12:38] <cjwatson> ogra: I don't think that's known, no
[12:38] <cjwatson> they should be "Log in automatically" and "Require password", or some such
[12:38] <ogra> yeah, might be a missing translation though, i'll try an english install later
[13:17] <ogra> cjwatson, hmm, not a translation issue, its missing in english as well
[13:17] <ogra> aha, changing it makes the text appear
[13:32] <cjwatson> superm1: could you elaborate on your comment the other day that my ubiquity diff to fix bug 337748 didn't work (presumably, broke bug 290398 again)? I'm trying it out here and it seems to be doing the right thing - it filters language-support-aa out of self.langpacks, for example
[13:46] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3167 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog gui/glade/stepLocation.glade): Fix spacing on timezone page (LP: #336745).
[14:05] <ogra> cjwatson, does ubiquity put an apt-install binary (or wrapper) anywhere ?
[14:05] <ogra> seems flash-kernel-installer calls it, if i run it manually it fails on it
[14:22] <cjwatson> ogra: yes, in /usr/lib/ubiquity/compat/. But don't try to run bits of ubiquity manually, really, it's a recipe for confusion
[14:22] <ogra> well, i wanted to see if the script works
[14:23] <ogra> i avent tested it in context yet
[14:23] <cjwatson> note that flash-kernel-installer will be running after /var/lib/ubiquity/apt-install-direct has been created
[14:23] <ogra> commenting out the apt-install bits (i installed the packages manually anyway) and installing flash-kernel in /target works though
[14:24] <cjwatson> ok, then I'd expect that to be fine
[14:24] <ogra> but ubiquity itself still fails in configure_bootloader()
[14:24] <cjwatson> this use of apt-install will effectively be a no-op in ubiquity anyway
[14:24] <cjwatson> look at logs before messing about doing stuff by hand
[14:24] <ogra> apt-install doesnt apply to /target, right
[14:24] <cjwatson> also, use ubiquity --debug and look at the debug log before messing about doing stuff by hnad
[14:24] <cjwatson> hand
[14:25] <cjwatson> ogra: wrong
[14:25] <ogra> well, the debug log only says flash-kernel failed with exit 1
[14:25] <cjwatson> ogra: the next step is to put set -x in the flash-kernel script
[14:25] <ogra> which made me look at flash-kernel first and check that it actually can run and there are no typos
[14:26] <ogra> (we cross checked it ten times, but you never know)
[14:26] <cjwatson> make sure to echo $? after testing it by hand, to see if it exited 1 despite producing no error messages
[14:26] <ogra> oh, indeed that i didnt do
[14:27] <ogra> hmm, shouldnt there be /var/log/installer in my installed system ?
[14:27] <ogra> ah, crap i guess it died before it copied logs
[14:30] <cjwatson> correct
[14:30] <cjwatson> but all the information is in /var/log/syslog in the livefs
[14:30] <ogra> which is gone after i tested the reboot :)
[14:46] <lool> cjwatson: Do you whether a Recommends of linux-image-imx51 on flash-kernel is required to have flash-kernel installed on the target system?
[14:47] <lool> cjwatson: Trying to decide whether 348382 is a blocker or not
[14:47] <lool> +know
[14:48] <lool> cjwatson: ogra mentionned that ubiquity would remove flash-kernel at the end of install just like it removes ubiquity and its deps
[14:51] <cjwatson> ogra: please stop being confused ;-)
[14:51] <cjwatson> lool: ubiquity ensures that flash-kernel remains installed on the relevant systems
[14:51] <cjwatson> explicitly
[14:52] <lool> cjwatson: Ok, so the bug is not a blocker; the dep doesn't prevent installation or anything, it's just nice to have it
[14:52] <lool> cjwatson: thanks
[14:52] <cjwatson> lool: correct
[15:02] <cjwatson> ogra: typo in your build-babbage-img script?
[15:02] <cjwatson>         cp $BUILDDIR/iso/install/vmlinuz $BUILDDIR/vmlinuz
[15:02] <cjwatson>         cp $BUILDIR/iso/install/initrd.gz $BUILDDIR/initrd.gz
[15:13] <ogra> cjwatson, no, thats from persia, he wants to builf alternate too from that script
[15:13] <ogra> cjwatson, look some lines up
[15:14] <ogra> cjwatson, sorry i'm trying not to be confused ... but its hard sometimes :)
[15:14] <cjwatson> ogra: that wasn't my point
[15:14] <cjwatson> ogra: BUILDDIR vs. BUILDIR
[15:15] <cjwatson> there's a D missing on the second line
[15:15] <ogra> oh, right
[15:15] <persia> ogra, It's still a typo (I do that a lot).
[15:15] <ogra> well, that code isnt used anywhere yet, thats why i missed it
[15:18] <ogra> ... typo fixed ...
[15:35] <superm1> cjwatson, re that diff for bug 337748, ubiquity was hung with that diff applied
[15:35] <superm1> did you test it with a dvd?
[15:36] <cjwatson> hung? bah
[15:36] <cjwatson> no, DVD testing is really difficult for me logistically
[15:36] <cjwatson> I'm behind 800Kbps ADSL
[15:36] <superm1> ah yuck
[15:36] <cjwatson> so basically I can't, except when I have absolutely no alternative
[15:37] <cjwatson> anyway I doubt it's testing on a DVD that's the determining factor here - it'll be testing with your huge locale preseeding thing :)
[15:37] <superm1> later this year it may become hard for me too when not in the office, my cable co is instituting monthly caps in my area at 5,10, 20, or 40 GB depending on how much I want to pay
[15:37] <cjwatson> since the added code is O(number of langpacks requested), not O(number of langpacks available)
[15:37] <superm1> right
[15:38] <cjwatson> I have a monthly cap of 50GB (though can pay extra for more ad-hoc), but usually it's the bandwidth that's the problem
[15:38] <cjwatson> basically it means a working day of not being able to use the network effectively to get a DVD
[15:39] <cjwatson> ok, well if it's poor performance, that gives me somewhere to start
[15:39] <superm1> i can try in a few hours again with it applied to get you a syslog in debug mode if it'd help
[15:42] <cjwatson> if you can, although I suspect it'll just have a big time delay in it :)
[15:43] <superm1> yeah, at least getting the area that it's got the delay will probably be helpful
[15:46] <cjwatson> hopefully in the added code ;-)
[15:47] <cjwatson> ah, that's better, decent-sized timezone map again
[15:53] <cjwatson> ogra: ISWYM, they're blank in English too. Argh
[15:56] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3168 ubiquity/ (debian/changelog ubiquity/timezone_map.py):
[15:56] <CIA-28> ubiquity: Use the full size of the underlying images for the timezone map if the
[15:56] <CIA-28> ubiquity: screen is big enough.
[15:57] <cody-somerville> cjwatson, Just to confirm, debian-cd uses debian-cd task lists generated from germinate output and not the actual task meta-data in the mirror, right?
[15:58] <cody-somerville> If I remember correctly, you said the only reason we have that information in the repository is to support the net-based installs, right?
[15:58] <superm1> cjwatson, so reading that partman-base commit you refered to, how does that interact with the existing ubiquity option for filtering disks? does the ubiquity preseed do anything still?
[15:58] <cjwatson> superm1: I added an explicit comment to the ubiquity source for this
[15:58] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: right, and to support people running tasksel post-install
[15:59] <superm1> cjwatson, okay then later when i can retest that patch, i'll pull a new ubiquity and partman-base and see if i can test the interactions
[15:59] <cody-somerville> cjwatson, and a debian-cd task list is just a file with all the seeded packages and their dependencies expanded, one package per line?
[15:59] <cjwatson> superm1: the remaining purpose of the ubiquity code is insurance in case somebody mounts a partition during partitioning
[15:59] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: more or less, it also has architecture #ifdefs (processed through cpp), although you should never actually have to care what the file looks like
[16:00] <cjwatson> superm1: I wouldn't expect that you'll still need the ubiquity preseed, normally
[17:13] <cody-somerville> cjwatson, offhand do you know if livecd-rootfs uses the metapackages or taskel?
[17:14] <ogra> meta
[17:14] <ogra> look at the code :)
[17:14] <cody-somerville> ogra, my computer is very bogged at the moment as my panels are running in valgrind
[17:23] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: it uses the tasks
[17:23] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: not via tasksel, but via apt-get's foo^ syntax for installing tasks
[17:24] <cody-somerville> if it were to install ubuntu-standard and ubuntu-desktop, would the result be the same?
[17:24]  * ogra decides to keep away from answering any other questions today
[17:26] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: in a stable release, yes; in a development release, ideally but there can be temporary desynchronisation. But we like to have something that runs automatically and makes sure the tasks in the archive work ...
[17:28] <cody-somerville> Is minimal pulled in via debootstrap or would I have to install ubuntu-minimal as well to ensure parity?
[17:28] <ogra> cjwatson, hmm, so setting flash-kernel-installer "set -ex" i see ubiquity: "in-target flash-kernel" /usr/lib/ubiquity/flash-kernel/flash-kernel-installer: 1: in-target: not found
[17:29] <ogra> and i see apt-install working fine above ...
[17:30] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: livecd-rootfs does it just in case, but debootstrap will install minimal
[17:32] <cjwatson> ogra: ok, I'll look into that
[17:32] <cjwatson> ubiquity doesn't have in-target right now, but probably needs a compatibility shim for it
[17:32] <ogra> well, i can as well special case it in flash-kernel-installer
[17:32] <cjwatson> no, please don't
[17:33] <ogra> though that would end up in a croot call
[17:33] <ogra> *chroot
[17:33] <ogra> which in-target tries to prevent
[17:33] <ogra> do you want/need a bug  ?
[17:33] <cjwatson> yes please
[17:33] <cjwatson> in-target tries to prevent> WTF? no it doesn't
[17:34] <cjwatson> in-target is a wrapper around chroot which does some extra stuff like connecting up debconf properly and mounting virtual filesystems
[17:34] <ogra> yes, it tries to prevent me from making my own chroot calls :)
[17:35] <cjwatson> I'll look at it later. Dinner now
[17:48] <ogra> cjwatson, Bug #353941
[18:58] <CIA-28> debian-installer: cjwatson * r1079 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 20081029ubuntu31
[19:01] <CIA-28> partman-base: cjwatson * r149 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 129ubuntu5
[19:02] <CIA-28> partman-auto: cjwatson * r284 ubuntu/debian/changelog: releasing version 84ubuntu2
[19:04] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3169 ubiquity/debian/po/ (80 files): debconf-updatepo
[19:07] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3170 ubiquity/debian/ (changelog ubiquity.install-any):
[19:07] <CIA-28> ubiquity: Install chroot-setup.sh and in-target from debian-installer-utils
[19:07] <CIA-28> ubiquity: (LP: #353941).
[19:10] <ogra> sigh ... still no success
[19:11] <cjwatson> superm1: bug 353273: is this a DVD?
[19:12] <cjwatson> oh, grub-pc Conflicts: grub. Bah.
[19:14] <superm1> cjwatson, yeah that's a DVD
[19:15] <superm1> er wait, no that wasn't
[19:15] <superm1> that was a CD with a network connection plugged in.  dvd's weren't ready yet
[19:15] <cjwatson> yeah, the DVD broke due to my attempt to fix your previous bug ;-)
[19:15] <cjwatson> the problem here is that grub and grub-pc conflict
[19:16] <cjwatson> so I think the best answer is indeed to make ubiquity recommend grub rather than depending on it
[19:16] <cjwatson> that'll let us remove it temporarily
[19:16] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3171 ubiquity/debian/ (changelog control rules):
[19:16] <CIA-28> ubiquity: Move bootloader dependencies to recommendations, to make it easier to
[19:16] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cope with grub and grub-pc conflicting (LP: #353273).
[19:16] <cjwatson> superm1: I've committed a change which ought to fix this, but please accept my apologies if it doesn't - as previously mentioned I have a hard time testing DVDs :-(
[19:16] <cjwatson> if it breaks again, please reopen that bug and I'll try to look in more detail
[19:17] <superm1> cjwatson, yeah I understand.
[19:17] <superm1> if you can upload a ubiquity again with these changes tonight before the next set of rebuilds, I can at least check from a CD
[19:17] <superm1> to be able sort out the grub-installer bit of it
[19:17] <cjwatson> aye, planning to
[19:20] <cjwatson> bug 353090 is worrying me though
[19:22] <ogra> yeah, its ver yweird
[19:22] <ogra> *very weird
[19:23] <superm1> compiz redraw problem maybe though?
[19:23]  * ogra wishes he would have to debug something thats at the start of the install, not at the end
[19:23] <ogra> superm1, nope
[19:24] <ogra> happens on non compiz setups as well
[19:24] <ogra> either gtk or the way gtk is used i would suspect and it wasnt there before the scrollbar showed up on that page
[19:48] <ogra> ARGH!
[19:48] <ogra> mv /target/usr/sbin/flash-kernel /target/tmp/flash-kernel.$$
[19:48] <ogra> *sigh*
[22:59] <cjwatson> ogra: mm, it's possible it's a scrollbar thing, though there were several other changes at around the same time
[22:59] <cody-somerville> cjwatson, Currently to extend the Debian Installer you just need to include a udeb. Does ubiquity have the same sort of support?
[23:00] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: it's not as straightforward I'm afraid
[23:00] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: but I'd prefer to explain it at some time that isn't 11pm local :)
[23:00]  * cody-somerville nods.
[23:00] <cjwatson> cody-somerville: there's some explanation in doc/README in ubiquity's source
[23:00] <cody-somerville> I'll take a look
[23:01] <cjwatson> I suggest you read the materials available there, and come back if there's anything you don't understand
[23:01] <cjwatson> d-i/source/ and ubiquity/components/ may also be worth looking at
[23:13] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3172 ubiquity/ (d-i/manifest debian/changelog):
[23:13] <CIA-28> ubiquity: Automatic update of included source packages: partman-auto 84ubuntu2,
[23:13] <CIA-28> ubiquity: partman-base 129ubuntu5, partman-ext3 56ubuntu1, user-setup
[23:13] <CIA-28> ubiquity: 1.23ubuntu16.
[23:29] <CIA-28> ubiquity: cjwatson * r3173 ubiquity/debian/changelog: releasing version 1.12.2


[19:12] <kurisu> hi guys is it possible to use compiz with 11.10 & gnome 3
[19:12] <kurisu> .... partly blind and need the colour filters that compiz provides
[19:18] <joanie> kurisu: In theory you can use it in "fallback mode." But not gnome-shell.
[19:21] <kurisu> hmmm
[19:21] <kurisu> so I have to use unity if I want to use 11.10 and compiz
[19:22] <joanie> or fallback mode in gnome 3
[19:23] <joanie> slowly but surely they are re-adding the missing functionality (at least with respect to color filters, etc.) into gnome-shell. I'm photophobic so I need the reverse contrast and feel your pain.
[19:24] <kurisu> apt-get install gnome-session-fallback???
[19:24] <kurisu> already did that but cannot get compiz working
[19:24] <joanie> kurisu: no :)
[19:24] <kurisu> oh
[19:24] <joanie> it's a system setting
[19:24]  * joanie looks
[19:24] <kurisu> oh right
[19:25] <kurisu> thanks
[19:25] <joanie> it's under System Info
[19:25] <joanie> so gnome-control-center (or that 'name' menu in the right)
[19:26] <kurisu> I basically used reverse contrast filters for everything
[19:26] <joanie> system settings if you use the menu route
[19:26] <kurisu> ok in there
[19:26] <joanie> then under system info it's under graphics
[19:26] <joanie> log out, log back in, and compiz should work
[19:26] <joanie> (be launchable)
[19:27] <kurisu> just states "Experience: Fallback"
[19:27] <kurisu> no options
[19:27] <AlanBell> kurisu: so what is wrong with unity? is it that compiz doesn't affect it?
[19:27] <kurisu> I hate unity
[19:27] <kurisu> ... basically
[19:27] <kurisu> I want gnome... with compiz
[19:27] <AlanBell> which bit do you hate?
[19:27] <kurisu> ... (need compiz to be able to see _
[19:28] <kurisu> everything
[19:28] <kurisu> its just not a very good desktop in my opinion
[19:29] <joanie> kurisu: yes, experience is fallback
[19:29] <joanie> and then log out
[19:29] <joanie> log back in
[19:29] <joanie> then launch compiz, ccsm, etc.
[19:30] <joanie> if you are not familiar with compiz-launching, I think it's compiz --replace but I cannot test on this system at the moment
[19:30] <kurisu> ok i'll try thanks
[19:32] <kurisu> hmm that didn't go so well
[19:33] <kurisu> just got loads of errors... looked like compiz had 'taken over' but none of the kb shortcuts worked and everything was unuseable
[19:35] <AlanBell> you might need to configure some more of the compiz plugins
[19:35] <kurisu> hmmm I just loaded my old compiz config
[19:35] <kurisu> just checked the errors: (unity-window-decorator:5315): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: "pixmap",
[19:36] <kurisu> does that mean unity is still being used?
[19:36] <AlanBell> I think it means that the plugins are horribly messed up if you are not using unity
[19:36] <kurisu> oh
[19:37] <AlanBell> unity is a compiz plugin, and a load of others are turned off as conflicts
[19:37] <AlanBell> you might need to turn off the unity plugin
[19:38] <kurisu> It's already off
[19:38] <joanie> kurisu: look for the gnome keyboard/compatibility plugin in ccsm
[19:38] <joanie> that gives you your shortcuts I believe
[19:40] <kurisu> the kb command plugin??
[19:41] <kurisu> seem to have nothing set
[19:42] <joanie> kurisu: I'm being summmoned for dinner. But on a machine at home I got this all working.... I can try to look later if you cannot sort it out.
[19:46] <kurisu> ok thanks
[21:41] <TheMuso> It would have been nice to know why he doesn't like Unity.
[21:41] <TheMuso> Other than he doesn't think it a very good desktop.
[21:44] <AlanBell> it would
[21:45] <AlanBell> most people who don't like unity just don't like it, without specifics
[21:46]  * AlanBell doesn't like the alt-tab, application switcher so I use a different window switcher
[21:46] <AlanBell> the global menu I am not a fan of, but it is OK
[21:46] <AlanBell> window buttons on the left are fine, really don't care
[21:47]  * TheMuso nods.
[21:47] <AlanBell> the launcher is fine on the left, but I set it to never hide, popping in and out was annoying
[21:48] <AlanBell> the applications lens is fundamentally badly designed, it is rubbish at showing me the applications I have and puts more effort into showing me applications from the software centre that I don't have, so I built a new lens that groups them by category like the menu used to
[21:48] <TheMuso> To each their own.
[21:48] <TheMuso> Cool.
[21:49] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/appmenulens.png
[21:53] <TheMuso> Nice.


[10:36] <arbrandes> Greetings, charmers!
[10:36] <arbrandes> I THINK I'm hitting https://bugs.launchpad.net/charms/+source/keystone/+bug/1391784, "HA failure when no IP address is bound to the VIP interface".
[10:36] <mup> Bug #1391784: HA failure when no IP address is bound to the VIP interface <openstack> <cinder (Juju Charms Collection):In Progress> <glance (Juju Charms Collection):In Progress> <keystone (Juju Charms Collection):In Progress> <neutron-api (Juju Charms Collection):In Progress> <nova-cloud-controller
[10:36] <mup> (Juju Charms Collection):In Progress> <openstack-dashboard (Juju Charms Collection):In Progress> <percona-cluster (Juju Charms Collection):Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391784>
[10:37] <arbrandes> However, the VIP is on the same exact network as the currently bound interface.
[10:38] <arbrandes> And as a matter of fact, the VIP *does* get brought up properly.
[10:39] <arbrandes> BUT... I still get "'hook failed: "ha-relation-changed" for keystone-hacluster:ha'", and debug-log says "INFO ha-relation-changed ValueError: Unable to resolve a suitable IP address based on charm state and configuration"
[10:39] <arbrandes> Is this a known issue?
[10:40] <arbrandes> BTW, this is trusty + juno + Juju Stable PPA.
[22:22] <mah9> Where on the default settings juju downloads charms?


[09:29] <ochosi> micahg: do you think it makes sense to ask tedg (or someone else) for some support porting the indicator-messages back to gtk2 (i'm not talking about coding or anything, just answering questions)
[09:31] <mr_pouit> ochosi: hey there (porting indicator-messages means basically reimplementing/copypasting 2 or 3 gtk3-only functions in gtk2, so I doubt tedg will answer)
[09:35] <ochosi> mr_pouit: yeah i know. the main blocker for bluesabre atm are the gtk-actions and gtk-action-groups
[09:35] <ochosi> (tbh even though they also exist in gtk2 i can't wrap my head around how to re-implement them)
[10:12] <mr_pouit> ochosi: also, usb-disk-creator showing in settings manager is due to its desktop file (Category=Settings, but there's no settings in this app, it's wrong)
[10:34] <ochosi> mr_pouit: ok, so i'll re-assign the bugreport
[11:31] <mr_pouit> ochosi: bluesabre already filed one :P
[11:31] <ochosi> mr_pouit: darn... :)
[13:15] <pnarciso> hello
[13:16] <ochosi> hi
[13:16] <smartboyhw> hi
[13:16] <pnarciso> hey, ochosi, with the beta coming out this week, do we have any hope to see panel gtk indicators fixed?
[13:17] <ochosi> pnarciso: probably not for beta1, but we're working on it
[13:18] <ochosi> pnarciso: keep your hopes low for indicator-messages, that's the hardest to fix, the others we can hopefully get in for 12.10
[13:18] <ochosi> (i.e. -sound and -application)
[13:19] <pnarciso> I haven't encountered much bugs
[13:19] <smartboyhw> Oh
[13:19] <pnarciso> power manager config manager sometimes refuse to run
[13:20] <ochosi> pnarciso: oh, that's bad to hear. i've encountered these problems also with xfce4.10 in 12.04
[13:20] <ochosi> if the config-manager refuses to start, that means powerman doesn't run or has crashed
[13:20] <pnarciso> Also, why we have two monitor power configurations? one in screensaver and the other in power manager
[13:21] <ochosi> that's because both provide it
[13:21] <ochosi> they're not related at all though and might use different functions, i'm not sure
[13:21] <pnarciso> but what's the prevailing
[13:21] <ochosi> we wanted to replace xscreensaver with something else, but didn't have enough time to make lightdm a screenlocker
[13:21] <ochosi> so both will prevail
[13:22] <ochosi> oh
[13:22] <ochosi> well, i mean both will stay installed, in this sense "prevail" :)
[13:22] <ochosi> i don't know which of the two has priority
[13:22] <ochosi> ideally you'd only set that in one of the two apps
[13:22] <pnarciso> that's my doubt
[13:22] <pnarciso> power manager in x screensaver is not working
[13:23] <pnarciso> at least in my rig
[13:23] <pnarciso> if you could test it, would be nice
[13:23] <ochosi> what specifically doesn't work?
[13:23] <pnarciso> monitor standby
[13:24] <ochosi> ok, i'll give it a try
[13:24] <pnarciso> xfce power manager sometimes works
[13:25] <pnarciso> alsa, I experienced come hard system freeze, while just in desktop
[13:25] <pnarciso> also, I experienced come hard system freeze, while just in desktop
[13:25] <pnarciso> also, I experienced some hard system freeze, while just in desktop
[13:26] <pnarciso> with the latest 3.5 kernel
[13:26] <pnarciso> I'm now testing 3.6 rc4 to see if it's more stable
[13:28] <ochosi> hmyeah, seems like xscreensaver isn't working in this respect
[13:28] <ochosi> (monitor standby)
[13:28] <pnarciso> that's what I thought
[13:29] <ochosi> i haven't extensively tested this though yet
[13:30] <pnarciso> well, in my rig, when I disable power management in xfce and enable it in x screensaver, monitor doesnt enter standby.
[13:30] <ochosi> yeah, that's what i just tried
[13:31] <ochosi> but i didn't restart anything after setting this option in xscreensaver
[13:31] <ochosi> e.g.
[13:31] <pnarciso> Only when I set in xfce power it works, but with power manager crashing all the time, it's not very good
[13:31] <ochosi> yeah, agreed
[13:31] <ochosi> could you file a bug about the power-manager on launchpad?
[13:33] <ochosi> i'll check first whether there's a report upsteram
[13:33] <ochosi> upstream
[13:33] <pnarciso> there's already one bug filed in that manner : https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bug/973778
[13:35] <ochosi> quite a few comments there
[13:35] <pnarciso> well, gotta go to work, see ya soon
[13:35] <pnarciso> bye
[13:35] <ochosi> yup, bye
[19:51] <pnarciso> hello
[19:51] <cc_INC> howdy
[19:55] <pnarciso> hey guys, if you use openoffice in quantal, the latest updates broke the menus
[19:57] <amerigena> pnarciso : you try installing dropbox on Quantal yet?
[19:58] <pnarciso> no, I usually run virtual machines in Windows through Vmware
[19:59] <amerigena> OK.
[19:59] <pnarciso> ok, forget it, I was thinking in virtualbox
[20:00] <pnarciso> No, I never tried that service, no need
[20:01] <amerigena> I'm installing Libreoffice right now to see what happens/
[20:14] <pnarciso> are you on xubuntu 12.10?
[20:33] <amerigena> Yeah, I'm working with 12.10. And you are correct, no menus in LO after updates.
[20:35] <ochosi> hm, could be that ubuntu is patching them away for their global menu
[20:36] <knome> hey ochosi
[20:38] <ochosi> hi
[20:41] <amerigena> K.
[20:44] <pnarciso> ochosi, could be but it seems they haven't tested the changes properly
[20:44] <pnarciso> release is not that far away, and ubuntu is a bit of a mess right now, especially compiz
[20:53] <ochosi> pnarciso: so have you tested unity as well?
[20:53] <pnarciso> I'm testing both ubuntu and xubuntu
[20:53] <pnarciso> the menus are working in unity
[20:54] <ochosi> are they still attached to the window or are they in the panel (=global-menu)?
[20:54] <pnarciso> global menu
[20:55] <ochosi> hm, that explains it i guess
[20:56] <ochosi> if they don't fix that for ppl without global menus, that will be a fantastic release
[20:56] <pnarciso> lol
[20:56] <pnarciso> they usually fix one thing and break another
[20:57] <pnarciso> but there's still time until release
[20:57] <ochosi> and usually they don't care if they break things just for others
[20:57] <ochosi> but please report a bug about this
[20:57] <ochosi> hopefully somebody will take notice
[20:57] <pnarciso> there's already a bug about it
[20:58] <ochosi> link?
[20:59] <pnarciso> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/1044657
[21:01] <pnarciso> and about xubuntu 12.10, have you decided what's is the deafult package manager?
[21:02] <ochosi> yeah, USC will stay, synaptic will go
[21:02] <pnarciso> :(
[21:02] <pnarciso> not a very good decision
[21:02] <pnarciso> USC is slow and buggy
[21:02] <ochosi> there were no good/real alternatives
[21:02] <pnarciso> and sometimes have issues installing external debs
[21:03] <ochosi> installing external debs with synaptic never really worked for me
[21:03] <ochosi> so...
[21:03] <pnarciso> I use gdebi
[21:03] <ochosi> anyway, i (and i think i can speak for many here) don't like USC and know how crappy it is
[21:03] <ochosi> but there are certain things you can't do without it
[21:04] <pnarciso> well, let's see if canonical improve it a little more \
[21:04]  * ochosi isn't keeping his hopes too high
[21:05] <ochosi> seriously, i looked for alternatives, but there weren't any
[21:05] <pnarciso> anyway, synaptic will be installed as soon as I install the distro
[21:05] <ochosi> there is lubuntu-software-center, but that's still a bit half-baked
[21:05] <pnarciso> yes, between the two I prefer USC
[21:07] <pnarciso> but you have to change the icons because USC and synaptic have now the same icons
[21:07] <ochosi> we won't be able to do that for 12.10
[21:07] <ochosi> UI freeze is over
[21:08] <pnarciso> but a ppa could be done for that, or not?
[21:08] <ochosi> yeah, or if you wanna fix it for yourself simply delete a few of the icons
[21:09] <pnarciso> with some changes that could not enter the final stage
[21:09] <ochosi> yeah, that's always possible i guess
[21:09] <ochosi> but how many ppl will we really reach with such a ppa
[21:10] <ochosi> also: ideally ppl will only have one package manager installed :)
[21:10] <pnarciso> yes, ideally, but I do not think USC is a good alternative to synaptic
[21:11] <pnarciso> Also, Xubuntu 12.04 had both
[21:11] <ochosi> yes, but our iso files are oversized for 12.10
[21:11] <ochosi> we have a real lack of space
[21:11] <knome> that doesn't mean there should be both in the new releases too
[21:12] <knome> and really, 1) people can still install synaptic 2) those who want advanced package management can probably live with apt-get too, if they don't want to install synaptic
[21:12] <pnarciso> I get that
[21:13] <knome> we aren't leaving anybody with USC only..
[21:13] <pnarciso> you have to cut on something, and synaptic had to go
[21:13] <ochosi> pnarciso: i still like synaptic, but it seems it's not very much maintained/developed anymore
[21:13] <knome> it's not only the space issue
[21:13] <knome> also what ochosi said (not maintained)
[21:14] <knome> i'm personally prefer synaptic over USC too, but i think that USC is better for many many users
[21:14] <knome> and i notice i'm using apt-get anyway, so even if i like synaptic, i'm not using it much
[21:15] <ochosi> pnarciso: but anyway, it'd be good if you attend meetings in the next cycle and add your voice
[21:15] <knome> ++ for that
[21:15] <ochosi> we always try to invite people to those meetings, but there are rarely "newcomers" that really show up
[21:16] <pnarciso> I'll do
[21:16] <knome> if you want to affect the development, attending the meetings especially on the roadmap building phase is meaningful
[21:16] <pnarciso> I'm a linux newbie
[21:16] <satya164> ochosi: what I install in synaptic as dependency, is also marked as manually installed
[21:16] <knome> that's the time when we decide what to work on for the next release
[21:16] <pnarciso> but I'm into beta testing
[21:16] <ochosi> satya164: yeah, there are a couple of issues with synaptic...
[21:16] <satya164> ochosi: it makes it harder to remove packages that were automatically installed
[21:18] <pnarciso> A problem with USC is that it doesn't remove all the programs you install, it only removes a specific package, leaving a lot of others behind
[21:18] <pnarciso> I also use apt-get to uninstall programs, and not USC or synaptic
[21:18] <knome> that sounds exactly what satya164 said about synaptic
[21:19] <pnarciso> I like synaptic to look at chancelogs and versions
[21:20] <ochosi> well yeah, USC is really not for the power-user
[21:20] <ochosi> you can use aptitude instead
[21:20] <pnarciso> satya is one of the guys who designed the xubuntu style, isnt it?
[21:21] <pnarciso> is aptitude more powerfull than synpatic
[21:21] <ochosi> yup, he did most of the gtk3 stuff this cycle
[21:21] <pnarciso> good work :)
[21:21] <knome> depends what "xubuntu style" means ;]
[21:21] <pnarciso> artwork?
[21:21] <satya164> pnarciso: thanks
[21:21] <satya164> knome: :p
[21:22] <knome> the artwork was done by me, satya164 ported the greybird theme to gtk3
[21:22] <knome> and ochosi hanged around a bit :d
[21:22] <pnarciso> congatulions to all of you then
[21:22] <pnarciso> congatulations to all of you then
[21:22] <knome> thanks. glad that you like it
[21:22] <pnarciso> I like the white more than the brown
[21:22] <satya164> thanks
[21:23] <pnarciso> it's more readable
[21:23] <satya164> yeah. agree with you. but still, people have different tastes
[21:23] <pnarciso> one thing that you missed was a nice background for the dock bar
[21:24] <satya164> pnarciso: as knome and ochosi said, I did most of the GTK3 work only
[21:25] <pnarciso> The bug in xorg is preventing the window borders, for now
[21:26] <ochosi> pnarciso: i'm adding it to the idea-bucket here now: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-r-xubuntu-appearance
[21:26] <pnarciso> Do you think xorg 1.13 will make it to 12.10 in time
[21:27] <ochosi> no clue
[21:27] <knome> pnarciso, does that fix the bug?
[21:28] <pnarciso> hey ochosi, you can also add a keyboard shortcut to enable and disable compositor. I use that now through a script, and it works very nice
[21:29] <ochosi> pnarciso: i hope by "script" you mean xfconf-query?
[21:29] <pnarciso> ochosi, yes
[21:29] <ochosi> pnarciso: we can add it to an idea list, but this one is for "appearance", kb shortcuts aren't really in that category imo
[21:30] <pnarciso> kome, it better fix, because without it, people with nvidia or ppl who use vbox don't have window borders
[21:30] <pnarciso> ochosi, ok
[21:31] <pnarciso> ochosi, I also have seen a mockup for thunar that organise the devices by category
[21:31] <pnarciso> but I guess it didn't make it
[21:31] <knome> pnarciso, we will fix the bug somehow anyway
[21:31] <ochosi> pnarciso: you mean this one? http://wiki.xfce.org/design/thunar/shortcuts-pane
[21:32] <pnarciso> yes that page
[21:32] <ochosi> yeah, well i worked on that with jannis
[21:33] <ochosi> but he couldn't fix the DND
[21:33] <ochosi> and then he got a job and relocated to .uk
[21:33] <pnarciso> dnd?
[21:33] <ochosi> so i don't see this happening any time soon
[21:33] <ochosi> drag and drop
[21:35] <pnarciso> ok, i get it, but i was a nice idea
[21:35] <ochosi> well hopefully someone will pick it all up
[21:35] <ochosi> it would've had much more features than the other filemanagers' sidebars
[21:35] <ochosi> being able to hide and reorganize stuff there
[21:35] <ochosi> but those features ultimately also broke its neck
[21:36] <pnarciso> by the way, current xubuntu 12.10 have a bug where mount drives appear twice in the desktop
[21:37] <ochosi> ah interesting
[21:37] <pnarciso> when I check the option to show mounted drives in desktop
[21:37] <ochosi> i have heard about this bug from len-dt yesterday
[21:38] <pnarciso> but it's a bug introduced post alpha 3
[21:38] <ochosi> since i'm using a vbox without usb support i can't test it much
[21:38] <pnarciso> I'm testing with a real install
[21:39] <pnarciso> and by the way, kernel 3.6 seems more stable on my rig.
[21:39] <pnarciso> 3.5 like to freeze my pc once in a while
[21:40] <pnarciso> 12.04 also had the same issue
[21:41] <ochosi> yeah, we can't do anything about the kernel unfortunately
[21:41] <ochosi> ubuntu decides all that
[21:41] <knome> well, we *could*...
[21:42] <pnarciso> are you guys being supported by canonical, or just use their distro to make your own
[21:42] <knome> financially, nope
[21:42] <knome> we are getting the infrastructure though
[21:43] <pnarciso> but are limited by their releases
[21:43] <pnarciso> not like mint for ex
[21:44] <knome> well, kind of
[21:44] <knome> i suppose we could decide not to release 12.10...
[21:44] <knome> but yes, we do release at the same time as ubuntu
[21:44] <ochosi> if wayland and gtk3 really come upon us in due time, we might have to skip a release or two
[21:45] <pnarciso> wayland for now is a mirage
[21:45] <pnarciso> until nvidia and amd start to support it
[21:45] <ochosi> not sure
[21:46] <ochosi> open drivers support it already
[21:46] <pnarciso> well, but open driver are really crappy for amd and nvidia
[21:46] <ochosi> and ubuntu is known for pushing things at times
[21:46] <pnarciso> only intel is investing
[21:46] <ochosi> depends, i mostly miss the power-management in the open driver
[21:46] <ochosi> i miss kms in the nvidia blob e.g.
[21:46] <satya164> ochosi: yeah, I have the 2 drives bug as well
[21:47] <pnarciso> well, nouveau is very unstable with my gtx680
[21:47] <ochosi> satya164: weird, someone also reported that on unity...
[21:48] <ochosi> pnarciso: if you want to know when the xorg-bug is fixed, i guess you have to monitor/subscribe this bug: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=54168
[21:48] <satya164> ochosi: didn't test on Unity, but have that bug with xfce


[19:59] <mdeslaur> \o
[19:59]  * slangasek waves
[19:59] <slangasek> I think we have some topics this week
[20:00] <slangasek> hopefully we also have a chair
[20:00] <mdeslaur> hi infinity!
[20:00]  * slangasek waves
[20:00] <infinity> Oh look, I'm the chair.
[20:01] <infinity> #startmeeting Ubuntu Technical Board
[20:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Tue Feb 27 20:01:21 2018 UTC.  The chair is infinity. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[20:01] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[20:01] <infinity> So, who's here?  Do we have quorum?
[20:02]  * stgraber waves
[20:02] <infinity> We do!
[20:02] <mdeslaur> wow! hi stgraber!
[20:02] <infinity> #topic Action Review
[20:03] <infinity> MaaS thingee: I've still entirely failed to review the current state.  I should make a personal TODO item to get that done.
[20:03] <infinity> support-status thingee: Superseded by recent SRUs.
[20:03] <infinity> slangasek: Bugs thingee?
[20:03] <slangasek> infinity: continues to be backlogged
[20:04] <infinity> Budgie LTS status, that seems to have been handled on-list, unless we want a quorum vote taken?
[20:05] <mdeslaur> nah
[20:05] <infinity> I'm +1 to mdeslaur and stgraber's cumulative +2
[20:05] <slangasek> I had also +1'ed it, mind
[20:05] <slangasek> I think we're good
[20:05] <infinity> Kay.
[20:06] <infinity> That brings up another topic, which is that we should probably send out a call for LTSiness and renew all the flavours.
[20:06] <slangasek> under TB or Release Team hat?
[20:06] <infinity> Yes.
[20:07] <tsimonq2> Did I hear "flavor"? :)
[20:07] <slangasek> is that an [action] for you? :)
[20:07] <infinity> TB needs to approve them, but if we're okay with the status quo, then just release team.
[20:07] <infinity> The one that I'm currently not okay with is kylin at 5y, since that used to be based on them being based on Ubuntu, which they aren't anymore.
[20:07] <infinity> I think they're not Xubuntu based?
[20:07] <infinity> IIRC.
[20:07] <infinity> s/not/now/
[20:08] <tsimonq2> (Ubuntu MATE)
[20:08] <tsimonq2> UKUI is a fork of MATE
[20:08] <infinity> Ahh, or that.
[20:09] <infinity> Either way, they're now based on a 3y flavour, and unless they really think they can handle the extra 2y on their own (which I'd strongly discourage), we should drop them to 3y.
[20:09] <slangasek> full ack
[20:09] <slangasek> infinity: where are you seeing this as 5y, btw?
[20:10] <infinity> slangasek: maintenance-check.py in lp:ubuntu-archive-publishing
[20:10] <infinity>     DISTRO_NAMES = [
[20:10] <infinity>         "ubuntu",
[20:10] <infinity>         "ubuntukylin",
[20:10] <infinity>         ]
[20:10] <infinity>     DISTRO_NAMES_SHORT = [
[20:10] <infinity>         "kubuntu",
[20:10] <infinity>         "lubuntu",
[20:10] <infinity>         "ubuntu-budgie",
[20:10] <infinity>         "ubuntu-mate",
[20:10] <infinity>         "ubuntustudio",
[20:10] <infinity>         "xubuntu",
[20:10] <infinity>         ]
[20:10] <infinity> So, kylin should move to short for Bionic, and Budgie needs to be added.
[20:10] <infinity> And we need to get everyone to confirm the current status.
[20:10] <slangasek> budge is there
[20:11] <slangasek> i
[20:11] <infinity> So it is.
[20:12] <tsimonq2> One thing; if Lubuntu Next 18.04 should be regarded as a 9m rather than a 3y, is there anything that needs to be done on the release team or TB end?
[20:12] <infinity> I think I'll JFDI the kylin move, then do the confirmation thing.
[20:12] <slangasek> infinity: +1
[20:12] <slangasek> infinity: seems you already declared Budgie LTS in October, according to the commit history ;)
[20:12] <infinity> tsimonq2: lubuntu-next has its own seeds, right?
[20:12] <infinity> Or is it in the lubuntu seed set?
[20:12] <tsimonq2> infinity: Correct, but it's under the same branch as the other Lubuntu ones.
[20:12] <tsimonq2> Right.
[20:12] <slangasek> tsimonq2: do you intend lubuntu-next to release, this time?  Given that it's been daily-only in the past
[20:13] <tsimonq2> Correct, that's the goal.
[20:14] <tsimonq2> So the *-share-* and the *-gtk-* seeds under the Lubuntu branch should be 3y as normal, and *-qt-* should be 9m.
[20:14] <infinity> Yeah, that'll take a little bit of mangling of maintenance-check.
[20:15] <tsimonq2> But is the TB OK with that plan?
[20:16] <infinity> I'm honestly not sure I see the point in you releasing it as kinda-supported before you switch it over to being the new hotness.
[20:16] <slangasek> do we have precedent for a flavor releasing a "next" image as a release image?
[20:16] <slangasek> I'm trying to recall what Kubuntu did with plasma
[20:16] <infinity> No.
[20:16]  * slangasek nods
[20:16] <infinity> active and plasma never got released officially until the switch.
[20:16] <slangasek> so I'd say there's some healthy skepticism about this plan
[20:17] <slangasek> maybe tsimonq2 should propose it on the mailing list and we should discuss it further?
[20:17] <tsimonq2> slangasek: The TB mailing list or the Release Team one?
[20:17] <infinity> That said, regardless of the plan, maint-check will need a bit of a mangle because you're building both from the same seed set, unlike kubuntu that used another.
[20:17] <slangasek> tsimonq2: TB, I think
[20:18] <tsimonq2> infinity: If this is approved by the TB, I'll volunteer to take that on.
[20:18] <tsimonq2> slangasek: Sure, I can do that by the next TB meeting.
[20:18] <slangasek> yeah, I was going to say, it'd be great to have tsimonq2 submit the patch for maint-check :)
[20:18] <infinity> It's not a hard mangle, per se.  Just needs a filter on the SUPPORTED=all bit.
[20:19] <tsimonq2> Right, I can take care of that. :)
[20:19] <infinity> You'll want supported=(all-next) and then supported-not-much=next
[20:19] <infinity> And not-much.length=9m
[20:19] <infinity> All pseudocode, obviously.
[20:20] <tsimonq2> Sure, and I can look into it more myself.
[20:20] <tsimonq2> Thanks.
[20:20] <infinity> #action tsimonq2 to bring up the support/release status of lubuntu-next on the TB list, and then submit patches to maintenance-check according to the final plan
[20:20] <meetingology> ACTION: tsimonq2 to bring up the support/release status of lubuntu-next on the TB list, and then submit patches to maintenance-check according to the final plan
[20:21] <infinity> #topic Ubuntu MATE Software Boutique
[20:21] <flexiondotorg> o/
[20:21] <infinity> flexiondotorg: Oh hai.
[20:21] <slangasek> hello!
[20:21] <infinity> slangasek: You want to drive this bit?
[20:22] <infinity> Because context.
[20:22] <slangasek> well, I think I've mostly laid out my concerns on the mailing list
[20:22] <slangasek> infinity, mdeslaur, stgraber: did you have a chance already to read that thread?
[20:22] <slangasek> I can summarize, regardless
[20:22] <infinity> I'm reading now.  But a summary would be nice.
[20:23] <stgraber> I've read the thread pretty quickly as they came in
[20:23] <slangasek> Ubuntu MATE Software Boutique allows push-button installation of packages from a variety of sources
[20:23] <slangasek> including ppas, and third-party sources
[20:23] <slangasek> some of which are configured by downloading the gpg keys over plaintext http
[20:24] <slangasek> and none of these details are surfaced to the user when they choose this software for installation
[20:24] <slangasek> so the concern is that this does not align with the TB-approved archive policy https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ExtensionRepositoryPolicy
[20:24] <mdeslaur> third-party sources?
[20:25] <slangasek> mdeslaur: I'd have to dig into the code for details; but it includes obvious ones like the upstream Google Chrome repository, and some less obvious ones for repos somewhere in India
[20:26] <mdeslaur> ooh :(
[20:26] <flexiondotorg> Those packages that Boutique installs from 3rd parties are always the official apt repos of the vendor.
[20:26] <slangasek> like, something called 'enpass' which is a 'cross-platform, complete password management solution [...]'; can't think of any reason anyone might have concerns about the gpg key used to authenticate /that/ repo being downloaded from http://repo.sinew.in/keys/enpass-linux.key
[20:27] <slangasek> flexiondotorg: yes, and we do not have cryptographic trust to any of those upstream repos
[20:27] <infinity> Yeah, so, there are multiple concerns here for sure.
[20:27] <mdeslaur> and we can't update them or revoke them if they are compromised, etc.
[20:27] <infinity> The first is that the user doesn't appear to be reasonably informed.
[20:27] <slangasek> so that's my summary of the current state
[20:27] <slangasek> flexiondotorg: anything else that I've missed?
[20:28] <infinity> The second is that those keys should be shipped in the package, not downloaded on demand.  So there's at least some claim that the developer of the package has vetted the key is the right one.
[20:28] <flexiondotorg> The source of the packages is available from the Details along side each package.
[20:28] <flexiondotorg> We also provide a page where every source is presented to the user.
[20:29] <slangasek> flexiondotorg: yes; this is not the same thing as an in-band confirmation from the user before they change the archive security properties of their system
[20:29] <flexiondotorg> infinity: I'm happy to ship keys with Boutique.
[20:29] <slangasek> flexiondotorg: do you also ship apt pins?
[20:29] <flexiondotorg> I'm happy to present a more prominent indication to users that packages are coming from a 3rd party and not supported by Ubuntu.
[20:30] <slangasek> (I'm asking because I think that would be a good idea; third-party apt repos have terrible security implications and apt pinning can mitigate against certain kinds of accidents, but not against a truly malicious repo)
[20:31] <flexiondotorg> We are not adding random PPAs or 3rd party repos. They are being vetted.
[20:31] <flexiondotorg> And some of those repos can be replaced with snaps from the same vendors now. The snap support is landing soon.
[20:31] <slangasek> flexiondotorg: but they're not being vetted by either the TB on behalf of the Ubuntu Developers, or by the user when they select for installation, and that's the problem from my perspective :)
[20:32] <slangasek> flexiondotorg: to be clear, I don't want to ask you to cripple any functionality here
[20:32] <slangasek> but I do think the security implications need to be surfaced to the user
[20:32] <stgraber> sure but any of them being taken over by a malicious third party and all your users are screwed with no way for you to fix them, downloading those keys over http then makes it even worse as it becomes pretty easy for someone to just feed you some other keys they'd like you to trust...
[20:33] <flexiondotorg> I understand. I'm keen to retain the functionality is a fashion the TB is comfortable with.
[20:33] <flexiondotorg> I just wanted to make it clear we are being careful with the 3rd poarty repos we select.
[20:34] <stgraber> For deb packages, I expect the minimum would be to have the GPG key in question in your package, ship apt pinning config so that they can't push any package other than what you expect AND you should still show a very clear message to the user that they're effectively trusting vendor XYZ with root on their system.
[20:34] <infinity> ^-- I think that about sums it up for me.
[20:34] <slangasek> right, +1
[20:34] <flexiondotorg> I wasn't aware Boutique was doing anything it shouldn't. My only intention was to provide the software user want with an easy install.
[20:35] <infinity> And that message can't be a one-time "I trust you to do stupid things for me", but triggered on any new repo enablement.
[20:35] <flexiondotorg> I'm happy to ship keys in the application, if that is desirable.
[20:35] <infinity> "I explicitly trust Google Chrome's repo" one day and "I also explicitly trust Dave's Janky PPA" the next.
[20:35] <flexiondotorg> Boutique is a snap now. So we do have a means to act quickly should a repo become compromised in some fashion.
[20:36] <flexiondotorg> We can notify users and provide corrective action.
[20:36] <infinity> flexiondotorg: Shipping keys in the package is the easiest way to maintain a reasonable trust path.  It also makes it easier for you to revoke them in an SRU.
[20:36] <flexiondotorg> As I said, it will land as a snap so we can revoke them promptly via an update should the need arise.
[20:37] <infinity> (Has anyone else found it very difficult to correctly type the word "trust" ever since, oh, October 2013 or so?)
[20:38] <mdeslaur> heh
[20:38] <flexiondotorg> So, ship keys. Apt pinning. Up front indication that 3rd party packages are not supported by Ubuntu.
[20:39] <flexiondotorg> Shipping keys and upfront indication are quick work. Apt pinning will take a little longer.
[20:39] <infinity> flexiondotorg: Not just lack of support, but also indicating each time someone enables a new repo that they are explicitly trusting that non-Ubuntu repository with root on their system.
[20:39] <stgraber> it's really not just that they're not supported by Ubuntu, I mean universe packages would kinda fit that description, it's more "I'm trusting that vendor with full root access to my system"
[20:40] <flexiondotorg> Understood.
[20:40] <infinity> flexiondotorg: Anyhow, I think the next action here would be for you to come up with a design plan, toss it at the mailing list for review, and move this forward there.
[20:41] <infinity> I expect there might be some iteration.
[20:41] <infinity> Though, happy to be proven wrong.
[20:42] <flexiondotorg> OK
[20:42] <infinity> #action flexiondotorg To follow-up on-list with design review to address MATE Boutique security/consent concerns.
[20:42] <meetingology> ACTION: flexiondotorg To follow-up on-list with design review to address MATE Boutique security/consent concerns.
[20:42] <infinity> Aaaand, on we go.
[20:42] <infinity> #topic Mailing List Archives
[20:43] <infinity> So, other than the bits we just talked about, there's a Kylin repo revisiting thing, that I think can be addressed on-list.
[20:44] <infinity> And a PPU request.  Did anyone action that?
[20:44] <infinity> slangasek: Did.
[20:44] <infinity> Minus the colon.
[20:44] <slangasek> yeah, about 30 minutes ago ;)
[20:44] <infinity> Heh.
[20:44] <infinity> #topic Community Bugs
[20:44] <infinity> GUYS WE HAVE ONE.
[20:45] <slangasek> OMG
[20:45] <mdeslaur> WAT?
[20:45] <slangasek> who wants it? :)
[20:45] <stgraber> can't be
[20:45] <slangasek> it's just another edit-acl
[20:45] <infinity> "Adding people to that packageset depends on team reorg in the set of teams for Ubuntu Budgie development (or the creation of a new team for it), the Developer Membership Board will take care of the following steps."
[20:45] <infinity> Looks like it's spinning wheels waiting on that, though?
[20:45] <infinity> I mean, a packageset with no members seems pointless.
[20:46] <slangasek> if it avoids the DMB blocking on the TB, it's not pointless IMHO
[20:46] <infinity> That's fair.
[20:46] <infinity> slangasek: All yours, if you want to spend the copious amount of time verifying that copy-paste and pasting it.
[20:47] <infinity> #topic Chext Nair
[20:47] <slangasek> e... d... i.... r... shoot
[20:47] <infinity> Looketh like iz kees, mit mdeslaur backup.
[20:47] <mdeslaur> ack
[20:48] <infinity> #topic AOB
[20:48]  * mdeslaur gives stink-eye to kees
[20:48] <infinity> Anyone have any OB to gab about?
[20:48] <infinity> Other than the minor excitement over having an actual meeting with stuff in it for once?
[20:48] <slangasek> I do have one thing more
[20:48] <infinity> Excellent.  Thing away.
[20:48] <infinity> #topic Steve has a thing
[20:49] <slangasek> I started a thread on ubuntu-devel to discuss policy around snaps preinstalled on Ubuntu images
[20:49] <slangasek> I think this should eventually go to TB for signoff
[20:49] <infinity> That it should.
[20:49] <mdeslaur> +1
[20:49] <slangasek> any preference on what form that should take?
[20:49] <slangasek> should I put it on agenda for next meeting, or would you prefer email?
[20:49] <infinity> One with an explicit sign-off from Mark that our jobs are safe if we dislike the plan.
[20:49] <infinity> *cough*
[20:50] <mdeslaur> heh
[20:50] <infinity> But yes, I think on agenda and real-time discussion.
[20:50] <slangasek> (I still need to incorporate feedback from the mailing list thread before submitting to TB)
[20:50] <slangasek> ok
[20:51] <infinity> Any other any other any other bidness?
[20:51] <infinity> 3
[20:51] <infinity> 2
[20:51] <infinity> 1
[20:51] <infinity> #endmeeting
[20:51] <meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Feb 27 20:51:22 2018 UTC.
[20:51] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting-2/2018/ubuntu-meeting-2.2018-02-27-20.01.moin.txt
[20:51] <slangasek> thanks, all!
[20:51] <mdeslaur> thanks everyone
[21:10] <infinity> Wiki updated, and I'm out.


[01:59] <wgrant> The build queue has finally caught up.
[02:00] <sarnold> \o/
[20:21] <KenSharp> launchpad.net didn’t send any data.
[20:21] <KenSharp> Cannot log in
[20:21] <KenSharp> bugs.launchpad.net didn’t send any data.
[20:22] <KenSharp> or even get the damned thing to load
[20:22] <sarnold> working fine here; maybe try mtr to try to spot problems?
[20:23] <KenSharp> 0% packet loss
[20:24] <KenSharp> it's not like it's uncommon
[20:26] <sarnold> hmm... "didn't send any data" sounds vaguely familiar -- any chance this is firefox with privacy badger? I kept getting errors like that on discourse sites (never launchpad, though) back when I used to use privacy badger
[20:27] <KenSharp> Nope. Chrome.
[20:28] <sarnold> heh turns out my memory was pretty poor, it was saying protocol violation.. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1716898
[20:30] <KenSharp> trying to log in is where the problem starts, apparently. after that every request fails.
[20:40] <KenSharp> cookie errors
[20:40] <KenSharp> This cookie was blocked because its path was not an exact match for a superdirectory of the requests url's path.
[20:40] <KenSharp> This cookie was blocked because neither did the request URL's domain exactly match the cookie's domain, nor was the request URL's domain a subdomain of the cookie's Domain attribute value.
[20:44] <KenSharp> So it's setting invalid cookies
[21:05] <cjwatson> All looks fine here.  launchpad.net sets a cookie with Domain: .launchpad.net, which is valid
[21:07] <cjwatson> Just tried in Chrome 101.0.4951.64 in an incognito window to make sure I was logging in from scratch; all fine


[21:39] <charlie-tca> Dasher, rather than having a keyboard set-up, is mouse controlled by hovering the mouse over the letters on the screen
[21:39] <charlie-tca> It also has predicitve text capabilities, which can be quite useful
[21:40] <charlie-tca> It learns as you use it, and will actually type in the range of 39 words per minute
[21:41] <charlie-tca> Dasher run from the launcher starts in normal mode, and it prints the characters in its own text editor and you can copy and paste into other programs
[21:41] <charlie-tca> From the command line you can run " dasher -a direct " which allows direct input into other programs
[21:41] <charlie-tca> There are also Windows and MacOS X versions of Dasher.
[21:41] <charlie-tca> For more information (including video and a way to try without downloading) you can go to http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/
[21:42] <charlie-tca> Any questions about Alternate keyboards?
[21:42] <charlie-tca> There are two programs in Ubuntu that help with alternate mouse controls
[21:43] <charlie-tca> MouseTrap allows headtracking using a webcam to control your mouse
[21:43] <charlie-tca> MouseTweaks works with the Assistive Technologies menu to give the ability to allow the mouse to "click" even if the mouse user can't actually make the motion that allows a mouse to click normally
[21:43] <charlie-tca> And now the topic that everyone asks about: Voice Recognition software
[21:44] <charlie-tca> The short answer is that there are hacks and there are programs that sort of work, but there aren't great results for voice recognition in Ubuntu
[21:44] <charlie-tca> There is no voice recognition software in the Software Center.
[21:44] <charlie-tca> An application that works somewhat is Julius. Julius was originally developed in Japanese and is being ported to English.
[21:44] <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, as it's not finished software, the documentation is lacking
[21:45] <charlie-tca> The other application which has worked for some Ubuntu users is to run Dragon Natural Speaking under Wine
[21:46] <charlie-tca> There are several groups actively working to bring voice recognition to Linux, and advances are being made.
[21:46] <charlie-tca> Any voice recognition questions?
[21:47] <charlie-tca> Okay, those are the major groups of accessibility programs and what's available in Ubuntu
[21:47] <charlie-tca> now I want to talk quickly about Ubuntu derivatives which focus on accessibility (or have some relevence)
[21:48] <charlie-tca> probably the biggest of these for the visually impaired at the moment is Vinux
[21:48] <charlie-tca> Originally started to be optimised for blind and visually impaired users, at this time, possible accessiblity additions or changes are tested in Vinux first
[21:48] <charlie-tca> for more information: http://vinux.org.uk/
[21:48] <charlie-tca> Finally, we have Qimo4kids, which mhall119 developed partially as a way to create something that would be easy for kids with developmental disabilities to use.
[21:49] <charlie-tca> and, to be honest, this is a great set of applications for any kids to learn skills
[21:49] <charlie-tca> For more information about Qimo: http://www.qimo4kids.com/
[21:50] <charlie-tca> Where to get help or information:
[21:50] <charlie-tca> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility
[21:50] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[21:50] <charlie-tca> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
[21:50] <charlie-tca> The Accessibility section of Ubuntu Forums
[21:50] <charlie-tca> #ubuntu-accessibility on IRC
[21:51] <charlie-tca> The mailing list at<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[21:51] <charlie-tca> also, the ubuntu accessibility team is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team
[21:51] <charlie-tca> The Gnome A11y team is also often useful<EMAIL_ADDRESS>& http://projects.gnome.org/accessibility/
[21:52] <charlie-tca> I would hope this gave you a general view of what is available in Ubuntu for Accessibility.
[21:52] <charlie-tca> We do consider a11y very important, and are striving to improve access for everyone, each release.
[21:54] <charlie-tca> lunzie passed along the following tip:
[21:54] <charlie-tca> I know the shift has been to libreoffice, but i see there's a kids' openoffice project too, http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
[21:55] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[21:56] <ClassBot> KB3UI asked: Do many people with disabilities have problems working with passwords and other security issues involving websites?
[21:57] <charlie-tca> This is usually not a problem, since firefox is the default browser, and is very accessible.
[21:59] <charlie-tca> Thank you all for participating in User Days.
[22:00] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
[22:00] <nhaines> Hello, everyone!  My name is Nathan and I'll be giving some useful tips about switching to Ubuntu from other operating systems.
[22:01] <nhaines> Feel free to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat at any time.
[22:01] <nhaines> Switching to a new operating system is fun and exciting!
[22:02] <nhaines> However, switching and keeping all of your existing data can be a daunting task.
[22:02] <nhaines> So I'm going to talk about things you'll want to consider before making the switch full-time.
[22:03] <nhaines> One of the most important things, of course, is deciding just when to make the switch.
[22:03] <nhaines> There are a few things you'll want to research before you take the plunge.
[22:04] <nhaines> First of all, you'll want to make sure that your hardware is fully compatible with Ubuntu.
[22:04] <nhaines> At least, any hardware that you still want to use after you switch.  ;)
[22:05] <nhaines> If you use a wireless network card, you'll need to test it to make sure it will still work.
[22:05] <nhaines> Many cards will work with no special considerations.  Others will need firmware to work properly.
[22:06] <nhaines> Bluetooth is another thing that can be really hit or miss.  The Bluetooth module in my laptop worked perfectly until 11.04, and doesn't work anymore.
[22:07] <nhaines> The USB bluetooth adapter I have for my desktop computer works great.    These are hit or miss, so you'll want to test this as well if you have one.
[22:08] <nhaines> Fortunately, your Ubuntu Desktop CD will help you out here.  When you boot from it, you can choose "Try Ubuntu" and you'll be able to test a standard system with your hardware.
[22:09] <nhaines> The only thing you won't be able to test comprehnsively is your video card.  The open source drivers for AMD (ATI) and nVidia cards are getting more capable every day!
[22:10] <nhaines> But sometimes you still need the proprietary drivers.  You can't test this without installing, so you may need to use Wubi to install without taking out your Windows installation.
[22:10] <nhaines> Another thing you'll want to think about is your upgrade tolerance!
[22:10] <nhaines> As you know, there's a new version of Ubuntu every 6 months.  Ubuntu 11.10 comes out in 3 weeks and it's looking great!
[22:11] <nhaines> But not everyone wants to upgrade their computer every 6 months.  That can be stressful.
[22:12] <nhaines> Every two years, Ubuntu has a "Long Term Support" release.  With normal releases, you have 18 months to enjoy the release before there are no more security updates.
[22:12] <nhaines> Each release can only be updated to the very next release.
[22:13] <nhaines> Long Term Support releases are different.  You can stick with one for three years before security updates stop, and after two years you skip the four releases in between and upgrade directly to the next LTS release.
[22:14] <nhaines> So if you're running Ubuntu 10.04 LTS right now, in April you'll be able to upgrade to Ubuntu 12.04 LTS.  But you'll have an extra year to be nice and safe before you have to maake the e plunge.
[22:14] <ClassBot> gua asked: is there any progress towards something that would allow one to test proprietary video drivers in the "Try Ubuntu" live environment?
[22:15] <nhaines> Thank you, gua, that's an excellent question.  Video drivers are part of the Linux kernel, the OS itself.  So it's not very easy to change the video driver and there wouldn't be a way to fall back if it didn't work.
[22:15] <nhaines> I don't know that there is any work on this right now, so I recommend using Wubi to test proprietary video drivers if you have Windows installed.
[22:16] <ClassBot> lunzie asked:  for casual users, is it advisable to upgrade from release to release? or stick with one that works reliably? and how do you see the proposed rolling releases impacting on willingness to upgrade?
[22:16] <nhaines> I think this is really a personal choice.  For myself, I love the newest, freshest software.  So I upgrade very 6 months.  And I use my laptop to try out the latest development release while I let my Desktop stick with the stable release.
[22:17] <nhaines> I think it's always a good idea to wait one or two weeks before upgrading, just in case there are any bugs that need hammered out still.  Reading the release notes for each release is also very important.
[22:18] <nhaines> Now's a good time to clarify that in this session I'm talking about using the Ubuntu desktop release, and not about servers.
[22:19] <nhaines> Okay, so once you decide whether you want the latest and greatest version of Ubuntu or you want to stick with the LTS release, you can get ready to install.
[22:20] <nhaines> Ubuntu Desktop CDs are pretty special.  They actually boot Ubuntu to let you install it.  So you have access to a real Ubuntu environment before you install.
[22:20] <nhaines> You can use this to run a "live" session right off the CD.  If you build a new computer, you can test it with the CD without installing.  This is how I test computers I build for friends, even if it won't end up with Ubuntu.
[22:21] <nhaines> Plus, Ubuntu installs take about 20 minutes, so there's nothing like getting the install started and then browsing the Web or playing Mines or Solitaire or listening to music while you're waiting for the install.
[22:22] <nhaines> But there's one thing that you should always do before you do a major OS install or upgrade.
[22:22] <nhaines> You want to make sure you have an up-to-date, successful backup of all of your files.
[22:22] <nhaines> Now, I know everyone here backs up their files all the time.  :)
[22:23] <nhaines> But this is really important.
[22:23] <nhaines> I work for Western Digital, a major hard drive manufacturer.  I used to do level 2 tech support for them.
[22:24] <nhaines> While nothing in this session reflects the opinions or policy of my employer, I want to talk about hard drives for a moment and so I want you to know where I stand.  :)
[22:24] <nhaines> Hard drives are mechanical devices, and every single one fails eventually.  Every single one.
[22:24] <nhaines> So it's important to back up your important files on at least one other physical disk.  Preferably you have two backups, but even one is betetr then none at all.
[22:25] <nhaines> I've taken phone calls from customers who had a hard drive fail, and I've taken calls from customers who accidentally formatted the wrong disk, and it's tragic because there's not a lot that can be done in many cases.
[22:26] <nhaines> So if you *don't* have a backup, then an OS switch is a good (and necessary!) time to do so.
[22:26] <nhaines> You can't really back up Windows programs.  They install data in too many places, like the Windows registry.
[22:27] <nhaines> Mac programs can be easier, but not all can be backed up simply by dragging the application folders over.
[22:27] <nhaines> So what you'll really want to focus on are your important files.
[22:27] <nhaines> On Windows, these are mostly stored in your user folders.
[22:27] <nhaines> On Windows XP, your My Documents folder also contains your music, pictures, and videos.
[22:28] <nhaines> On Windows Vista, 7, and 8, these are in separate folders.
[22:29] <nhaines> So what you'll want to do is get an external harddrive.  An internal drive will work as well if you know how to install one, but you might like to use your internal drive while upgrading.
[22:30] <nhaines> With a USB or network hard drive, you'll be ready to copy your files to the hard drive.
[22:30] <nhaines> Likewise, on a Mac you will have a user profile that you can copy data to.
[22:30] <nhaines> If you are using Windows Backup or Time Machine, you won't be able to access your backed up files in Ubuntu.
[22:31] <nhaines> If you happen to be using WD's SmartWare backup software, you actually will be able to copy your files over.  But this is different for each backup program.  So I recommend just copying your files manually to be safe.
[22:31] <nhaines> A hard drive is just a storage device, so even if your external hard drive comes with backup software, it isn't necessary to use or even install.
[22:32] <nhaines> Make sure you copy all your documents.  For any important programs like your email or financial software, please check that program's help file for a backup or export feature.  That way you know for sure that your data are safe.
[22:33] <nhaines> Copy everything to an external hard drive.  Then, when you're installing, you'll unplug the drive and set it aside.  Now no matter what happens during the install, your files are safe.
[22:33] <nhaines> Even though I strongly recommend manual backups, using Windows Backup or Time Machine can make reinstalling your old operating system much easier if you ever need to go back.
[22:34] <nhaines> In Ubuntu, your user folder is called a "home directory".
[22:35] <nhaines> So you'll be able to copy your files directly to that folder pretty easily.
[22:36] <nhaines> Once you have Ubuntu installed, then you're faced with a new way of thinking about your computer.
[22:36] <nhaines> Ubuntu has a wonderful interface called Unity.  It looks a bit different, but you'll quickly become used to it.  Ubuntu 11.10 has a lot of great enhancements to this interface as well.
[22:37] <nhaines> On the left hand of your screen is the Unity launcher.  This shows any programs you have running and lets you launch others.  You can right-click any program icon and pin it to the launcher so you have easy access to it.  This works identically to the Windows Vista task bar and the Mac OS X dock.
[22:38] <nhaines> At the top left of the screen, you'll have a dash launcher button.  It will either be in the top left corner or the first icon on the launcher.
[22:38] <nhaines> The easiest way to get to this is by pressing the Super key on your keyboard.  The Super key usually has a Windows logo on it.
[22:40] <nhaines> When the Dash opens, you can quickly access the Web, your photos, music, or email.    You can also just start typing the name of the program you want to launch and it will show up in the search results.
[22:40] <nhaines> Once it appears, just press Enter or click on it and it will start.
[22:41] <nhaines> You probably won't have too many surprises.  The default web browser is Firefox, and Ubuntu comes with LibreOffice, Gwibber for Facebook and Twitter, Empathy for practicaly any IM network you like, and if you prefer Chrome Web Browser or Pidgin IM client, those are easy to install.
[22:43] <nhaines> The best thing about Ubuntu is that software is very easy to find.
[22:43] <nhaines> Included is the Ubuntu Software Center.  This is a catalog with thousands of software applications that rae ready for you to install automatically.
[22:44] <nhaines> Any time you install using Ubuntu Software Center, you'll receive updates for that program along with your OS updates as well.
[22:45] <nhaines> Canonical provides some proprietary software for your convenience, for example, Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader, and Skype.
[22:46] <nhaines> Although Ubuntu will open PDFs out of the box... you don't need Adobe Reader unless you have a tricky PDF that requires it.  But it's there just in case.  :)
[22:46] <nhaines> There are some programs for sale through Software Center as well.  When you buy these, you'll be able to install them on any computer you install Ubuntu on, and reinstall them in the future if you have to remove them for space or reinstall your OS.
[22:47] <nhaines> I'll just say that World of Goo is a great game to try out. :)
[22:47] <nhaines> Another nice feature is Ubuntu One.  You can register for a free account and then you get 5 GB of online storage.
[22:48] <nhaines> Any file or folder you put in your Ubuntu One folder is synced with your Ubuntu One account online.  Then, you can log into your account at http://one.ubuntu.com/ and access these files.
[22:48] <nhaines> You can also publish a file, which gives you a URL you can share with others so they can download the file.  It's perfect for sharing documents or pictures you've taken.
[22:49] <nhaines> When you log into Ubuntu One on other Ubuntu computers, they get a copy of anything in your Ubuntu One account.  So when you add files or make changes on one computer, you'll have those files and changes on your other computers as well.
[22:50] <nhaines> Plus, if you have an Android phone, you can access your Ubuntu One files and automatically upload photos you take to your Ubuntu One account so they magically appear on your computers as well.
[22:50] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[22:50] <nhaines> This is a super useful service to sync and share your files, and you can purchase extra storage or a mobile music service that lets you stream music to your Android phone or iPhone.
[22:51] <nhaines> And the Ubuntu One devs are working on a Windows client as well, so imagine you could keep certain files in sync across all your Windows and Ubuntu computers plus your phone!
[22:51] <nhaines> So that's definitely worth checking out with your free account.
[22:52] <nhaines> I hope during this session I've enlightened you about what to think about when planning an OS change.
[22:52] <nhaines> As a bonus, all of this advice works for switching from any OS to any other OS, and is useful for switching to a new computer as well.  ;)
[22:52] <nhaines> If there are no other questions, then I think this session is finished.
[22:53] <nhaines> As usual, I'm always available for clarification or further questions at nhaines at ubuntu dot com.
[22:54] <nhaines> I hope you've all enjoyed this session and learned something new.
[22:55] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[22:55] <nhaines> We have three great sessions coming up!  Next is an introduction to Firefox, and then you can learn about Launchpad, and last you can learn about Guake and how it can make you more productive.
[22:56] <nhaines> So remember to keep good backups (once you're in Ubuntu you can use Deja Dup, installed by default in Ubuntu 11.10), and have fun exploring your new Ubuntu system, the Software Center, and all the wonderful possibilities that your computer can give.  :)
[23:00] <ClassBot> Slides for Introduction to Firefox: http://people.ubuntu.com/~joseeantonior/Slides/Firefox.pdf
[23:00] <ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/25/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
[23:00] <JoseeAntonioR> Hello everyone! My name is José Antonio Rey, known as JoseeAntonioR in IRC.
[23:00] <JoseeAntonioR> Today I'll be talking about Firefox, a web browser.
[23:01] <JoseeAntonioR> You can find some slides in the link that is in the topic.
[23:01] <JoseeAntonioR> In the second slide you can find all the topics which are going to be covered today.
[23:02] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 3]
[23:02] <JoseeAntonioR> Firefox is a web broswer that comes attached with Ubuntu.
[23:02] <JoseeAntonioR> You can find it in the Unity Launcher, as well as, in the Desktop.
[23:02] <JoseeAntonioR> It is developed and distributed by Mozilla.
[23:02] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 4]
[23:03] <JoseeAntonioR> The main use of Firefox is, as you know, browsing the web.
[23:03] <JoseeAntonioR> As a consequence, you can bookmark your favorite webpages, download music, videos, documents, and files in general.
[23:03] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 5]
[23:03] <JoseeAntonioR> How To: Download files.
[23:04] <JoseeAntonioR> Once you want to download a new file, you can click on the link.
[23:04] <JoseeAntonioR> A new window will pop-up. There, you can choose between opening it with a certain program, or saving it to a previously chosen destination.
[23:05] <JoseeAntonioR> When you choose, that window will close, and a new window will be opened. It is named Downloads.
[23:05] <JoseeAntonioR> There, you can see your downloads, as well as the current download and its progression.
[23:05] <JoseeAntonioR> You can close the window at any time.
[23:05] <JoseeAntonioR> You also can press Ctrl+Shift+Y to open it again.
[23:06] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 6]
[23:06] <JoseeAntonioR> How to see your History.
[23:07] <JoseeAntonioR> You can check all the pages that you have visited just by pressing Ctrl+H.
[23:07] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 7]
[23:08] <JoseeAntonioR> How To: Tabbing.
[23:08] <JoseeAntonioR> In this Firefox version, you are able to navigate in tabs. It is like having several windows in just one.
[23:09] <JoseeAntonioR> Tabs will appear above, in the upper part, below the address bar.
[23:09] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 8]
[23:09] <JoseeAntonioR> How To: App Tabs.
[23:10] <JoseeAntonioR> App tabs is a functionality that allows the user to transform a tab in just the image of it.
[23:10] <JoseeAntonioR> These tabs are special, they will remain opened on the first places.
[23:10] <JoseeAntonioR> Even if you quit Firefox, they will be opened again.
[23:11] <JoseeAntonioR> To notify you of any change in the page they turn blue.
[23:11] <JoseeAntonioR> One of their advantages is that you won't be able to close them accidentally, as you can only do that by right-clicking the tab and selecting 'Close Tab'.
[23:12] <JoseeAntonioR> To pin an App Tab, right click on the desired tab and click 'Pin as App Tab.'
[23:12] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 9]
[23:12] <JoseeAntonioR> How to set homepage.
[23:13] <JoseeAntonioR> First of all, you will need to choose your homepage.
[23:13] <JoseeAntonioR> Once you have chosen it, click Edit>Preferences and type the address on the bar.
[23:14] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 10]
[23:14] <JoseeAntonioR> How to block pop-ups.
[23:15] <JoseeAntonioR> The pop-ups blocker is activated by default.
[23:15] <JoseeAntonioR> If you want to modify the setting, just go to Edit>Preferences>Content.
[23:16] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 11]
[23:16] <JoseeAntonioR> How To: Bookmarks.
[23:16] <JoseeAntonioR> A Bookmark is one of your favorite pages, stored on your browser for an easy-access at any time.
[23:17] <JoseeAntonioR> You can Bookmark a page by pressing Ctrl+D or by clicking the star displayed on the address bar.
[23:17] <JoseeAntonioR> You can check your existing Bookrmarks by pressing Ctrl+B.
[23:18] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 12]
[23:18] <JoseeAntonioR> How To: "Persona"
[23:19] <JoseeAntonioR> "Persona" is an extension that you can use to change the appearance of your Firefox windows.
[23:19] <JoseeAntonioR> You can discover more about "Persona" by clicking the entering to the following address:
[23:20] <JoseeAntonioR> http://a.joj.me/35
[23:20] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 13]
[23:20] <JoseeAntonioR> Basic Shortcuts
[23:20] <JoseeAntonioR> Pressing Ctrl+N opens a new browser window.
[23:21] <JoseeAntonioR> Pressing Ctrl+T opens a new tab in the current window.
[23:21] <JoseeAntonioR> Ctrl+Shift+T opens the last tab closed.
[23:22] <JoseeAntonioR> For example, if you have recently closed the Google tab, you can re-open it by pressing Ctrl+Shift+T.
[23:22] <JoseeAntonioR> Ctrl+O opens a file.
[23:23] <JoseeAntonioR> It will pop-up a window where you can explore your system and choose the file.
[23:23] <JoseeAntonioR> Ctrl+W closes the current tab.
[23:24] <JoseeAntonioR> Ctrl+R refreshes the current window in past Firefox versions, and in the current version it refreshes the current tab.
[23:24] <JoseeAntonioR> By pressing Ctrl+H you can see your History.
[23:25] <JoseeAntonioR> By pressing Ctrl+Shift+Y you can open the Downloads windows, mentioned in slide 5.
[23:26] <JoseeAntonioR> By pressing Ctrl+Shift+E you open Panorama. I will explain about it later.
[23:26] <JoseeAntonioR> Pressing Ctrl+B shows you your Bookmarks.
[23:27] <JoseeAntonioR> When you press Ctrl+D you will Bookmark the current page.
[23:27] <JoseeAntonioR> And finally, by pressing Ctrl+Q you can quit Firefox.
[23:27] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 14]
[23:27] <JoseeAntonioR> Panorama: Tabs Grouping.
[23:28] <JoseeAntonioR> Panorama is a feature that is used to group tabs as you want.
[23:28] <JoseeAntonioR> To access it, just press Ctrl+Shift+E.
[23:28] <JoseeAntonioR> There, you can create new windows, and group the tabs exactly as you want to.
[23:29] <JoseeAntonioR> Also, you can change the size to, for example, emphasize the content.
[23:29] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 15]
[23:30] <JoseeAntonioR> About extensions.
[23:31] <JoseeAntonioR> Extensions are programs which are installed inside Firefox.
[23:31] <JoseeAntonioR> There programs have different uses, as for example managing your music player, changing the appearance of your windows, running commands, etc.
[23:32] <JoseeAntonioR> You can discover more about Extensions on http://addons.mozilla.com
[23:32] <JoseeAntonioR> [slide 16]
[23:32] <JoseeAntonioR> Recommended Extensions
[23:33] <JoseeAntonioR> First of all, Persona.
[23:33] <JoseeAntonioR> It has been mentioned in slide 12.
[23:33] <JoseeAntonioR> With this extension you can change the design of the window.
[23:33] <JoseeAntonioR> The link to it is http://a.joj.me/35
[23:34] <JoseeAntonioR> Then, FoxRunner.
[23:34] <JoseeAntonioR> FoxRunner allows the user to run Terminal commands directly from Firefox.
[23:35] <JoseeAntonioR> For example, you are having some troubles with your system, and you need to run a lot of commands.
[23:35] <JoseeAntonioR> The problem is that all of them are in your Firefox window, and you are tired from copy-pasting them.
[23:36] <JoseeAntonioR> So, this is the solution.
[23:36] <JoseeAntonioR> You just highlight the command the you want to run
[23:36] <JoseeAntonioR> Then right click the selection
[23:37] <JoseeAntonioR> Select FoxRunner>Run selected command
[23:37] <JoseeAntonioR> And it's done!
[23:37] <JoseeAntonioR> The link to the extension is http://d.joj.me/36
[23:37] <JoseeAntonioR> Now, let's go with AdBlock Plus.
[23:38] <JoseeAntonioR> With it you can block ads from webpages.
[23:38] <JoseeAntonioR> If you are tired of seeing that messy ads that appear in every single page you visit, you should install this Extension.
[23:39] <JoseeAntonioR> It has a blocklist from web addresses that host the ads.
[23:40] <JoseeAntonioR> What it does it is just blocking the navigation to that webpages, so the ads doesn't show up.
[23:41] <JoseeAntonioR> If there is still an ad showing up, you can right click on it and tell AdBlock Plus to block it.
[23:41] <JoseeAntonioR> The link to this extension is http://e.joj.me/36
[23:41] <JoseeAntonioR> Finally, GreaseMonkey.
[23:42] <JoseeAntonioR> GreaseMonkey is used to run javascript on a webpage.
[23:42] <JoseeAntonioR> You can use it to customize the web a webpage displays or behaves.
[23:43] <JoseeAntonioR> You can find hundred of scripts for a wide variety of popular sites on http://userscripts.org
[23:43] <JoseeAntonioR> You can also write your own scripts.
[23:44] <JoseeAntonioR> The link to GreaseMonkey is http://f.joj.me/36
[23:44] <JoseeAntonioR> So, I have finished.
[23:45] <JoseeAntonioR> If you have any questions you can post them to #ubuntu-classroom-chat by writing QUESTION:<question>, where <question> is your actual question.
[23:45] <JoseeAntonioR> I will be glad to answer some common support questions, if they are asked.
[23:50] <ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[23:50] <JoseeAntonioR> 10 minutes left. If you have any questions, please ask them now.
[23:54] <ClassBot> benonsoftware asked: What language is Firefox written in?
[23:54] <JoseeAntonioR> Most of the code is written in C++.
[23:54] <JoseeAntonioR> The Frontend is XUL, Javascript and CSS.
[23:55] <ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[23:55] <ClassBot> jsjgruber-l-onei asked:  What add-on do you recommend for mouse gestures?
[23:56] <JoseeAntonioR> I used Mouse Gestures Redox, but it is not available for Firefox 6.0.2
[23:56] <JoseeAntonioR> If you have got an old version you can check it. g.joj.me/36
[23:58] <JoseeAntonioR> Also, I have found another Extension. You can check it in http://h.joj.me/36
[23:58] <JoseeAntonioR> So, I think that's all.
[23:59] <JoseeAntonioR> We have a very interesting Launchpad Basics session coming up.
[23:59] <JoseeAntonioR> Thanks for attending.