[00:09] <Ubulette> if https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=414558 is really the cause of miro's folding weirdness, it seems it's there to stay :(
[00:09] <ubotu> Mozilla bug 414558 in Layout "gmail titles shown below label when browser width is reduced. List of contacts is empty." [Major,New]
[00:09] <cheguevara> [reed], is inability of ff3 to use hotmail's full interface a hotmail bug or a firefox bug
[00:10] <[reed]> dunno, I've seen a bug on it, but I didn't read it
[00:10] <[reed]> check bugzilla
[00:10] <asac> cheguevara: afaik its hotmail
[00:10] <asac> cheguevara: you can use it by changing the user-agent
[00:10] <asac> (to windows or mac)
[00:11] <cheguevara> mozilla bug 396259
[00:11] <ubotu> Mozilla bug 396259 in English US "hotmail.com - Hotmail (Classic interface) cannot be accessed from non-Firefox Gecko browsers" [Normal,New] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=396259
[00:19] <[reed]> asac: you're working on the dpi issue?
[00:51] <asac> [reed]: was dragged into something else today.
[00:51] <asac> but yes
[00:51] <asac> still on radar
[01:21] <[reed]> k
[01:50] <[reed]>   inetutils-inetd 2:1.5.dfsg.1-4
[01:50] <[reed]>   openbsd-inetd 0.20050402-6
[01:50] <[reed]> which is better?
[02:08] <asac> openbsd is in main
[02:08] <asac> [reed]: ^^
[02:08] <[reed]> yeah
[02:08] <[reed]> that's what I figured out
[02:08] <[reed]> and picked :)
[02:08] <[reed]> thanks
[02:08]  * [reed] is setting up a pxe server so he can install ubuntu on his new laptop
[02:08] <[reed]> since it doesn't have a cdrom drive and usb flash install isn't working
[02:08] <asac> [reed]: usb?
[02:08] <asac> isn't?
[02:09] <[reed]> nope... it fails during partitioning
[02:09] <asac> gutsy?
[02:09] <[reed]> yes
[02:09] <[reed]> and some other random stuff I had to kick to get to work
[02:09] <asac> strange ... tried alternate CD?
[02:09] <[reed]> wait
[02:10] <[reed]> couldn't I put the netboot image on a floppy?
[02:10] <[reed]> I have a usb floppy drive
[02:10] <[reed]> and then I could netboot
[02:10] <[reed]> and install like that
[02:10] <[reed]> ooo
[02:14] <asac> https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/i386/boot-usb-files.html
[02:15] <asac> let me know what worked out for you :)
[02:15]  * asac sleeps now
[02:15] <[reed]> lol
[02:15] <asac> really ... if i buy an X61 i want to know whats up ;)
[02:15] <asac> at best try not to use that floppy as I ain't have one
[02:15] <asac> :-P
[02:17] <[reed]> well, pxe server would work
[02:17] <[reed]> just a pain to set up :)
[02:17] <asac> right
[02:17] <asac> too much imo
[02:17] <asac> usb should really work
[02:18] <asac> i mean why would partitioning break?
[02:18] <[reed]> could me just the usb flash drive I was using
[02:18] <[reed]> be*
[02:18] <[reed]> I'll try another one
[02:18] <asac> did you run live image or alternate?
[02:18] <[reed]> live
[02:18] <asac> yeah ... maybe alternate is more safe
[02:18] <[reed]> I'll try your page
[02:19] <[reed]> if it doesn't work, I'll try something else
[02:19] <[reed]> :)
[02:19] <asac> just found that on google ;)
[02:19] <asac> there is also: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick
[02:21] <asac> but maybe the first combined with network (like mentioned in the last section) looks like the most effecient approach
[02:29] <[reed]> oh, maybe I'm just running into a partitioning problem
[02:30] <asac> wanna keep vista?
[02:31] <[reed]> no, I'm going to replace it with XP
[02:31] <[reed]> (for school stuff that requires Winblowz :()
[02:31] <[reed]> but there's also a recovery partition
[02:31] <[reed]> I guess I could just wipe the vista partition
[02:31] <[reed]> and then resize it
[02:32] <asac> he? you can wipe everything i would say
[02:32] <asac> and then create partitions as needed ... like
[02:32] <[reed]> I like keeping the recovery partition
[02:32] <[reed]> it's only 5gb
[02:32] <[reed]> ok, that seemed to work
[02:32] <[reed]> hmm
[02:32] <asac> for what purpose?
[02:33] <[reed]> should I make the ubuntu partition first before XP or the XP partition before Ubuntu?
[02:33] <[reed]> /dev/sda2 versus /dev/sda3
[02:33] <asac> that shouldn't matter
[02:33] <asac> as long as you keep it _small_ :-P
[02:33] <[reed]> true
[02:34] <[reed]> 25gb should do
[02:34] <[reed]> since some of the engineering programs I have to install are several gigs
[02:34] <asac> for XP ... thats huge ;) ... how many do you have in total? 80, 120, 160?
[02:34] <[reed]> 160
[02:34] <asac> ah .. that should be fine then
[02:36] <[reed]> hmm, I crashed ubiquity
[02:36] <[reed]> whatever that is
[02:36] <cheguevara> the installer :P
[02:37] <asac> Description: Ubuntu live CD installer
[02:37] <asac> yep
[02:37] <[reed]> "fun"
[02:40] <[reed]> hmm
[02:40] <[reed]> need to make a swap partition
[02:40]  * [reed] does that
[02:42] <cheguevara> what kind of a laptop doesnt have a cdrom
[02:42] <asac> X6x
[02:42] <asac> thinkpad
[02:43] <[reed]> I was dumb and had separate partitions for / and /home on my main laptop
[02:43] <[reed]> that's starting to bite me
[02:43] <asac> why?
[02:43] <[reed]> since I'm running out of space on /home but I have plenty on /
[02:43] <[reed]> :(
[02:43] <asac> hehe
[02:43] <asac> yeah ... sizing matters
[02:43] <[reed]> size _does_ matter!
[02:43] <[reed]> ;P
[02:43] <cheguevara> lol
[02:43] <cheguevara> suse does that by default, always annoyed me
[02:44] <[reed]> I think I'll just do a 2gb swap partition
[02:44] <[reed]> and then everything else on /
[02:44] <cheguevara> how much RAM you got
[02:44] <[reed]> 2GB
[02:44] <asac> i split partitions as well ... on laptop this is questionable, agreed
[02:44] <cheguevara> will probably never need such a big swap
[02:44] <[reed]> at least I don't follow the stupid "double your RAM to get your swap partition size" rule
[02:45] <[reed]> cheguevara: what do you recommend? 1gb? 1.5?
[02:45] <cheguevara> i'd say 1 is enough
[02:45] <cheguevara> unless firefox starts memory leaking :P
[02:45] <[reed]> lol
[02:45] <cheguevara> yeah some people got 4 gigs of ram
[02:45] <cheguevara> and set their swap to 8 gigs
[02:45] <[reed]> asac: sound good?
[02:45] <cheguevara> i was like wtf lol
[02:46] <asac> [reed]: depends on your preference. running without swap is fine too ;)
[02:46] <[reed]> lol
[02:46] <asac> i mean if 2 gig of active mem gets swapped out you are lost anyway
[02:46] <cheguevara> lol
[02:46] <asac> on desktop
[02:47] <asac> but same for 1gb
[02:47] <asac> its more like a backup for cases where you rather want severe slowdown instead of OOMs
[02:48] <asac> but 2 don't hurt nowadays ;) ... as there is plenty of space
[02:50] <cheguevara> basically 1 or 2
[02:50] <cheguevara> don't really make a diff :P
[02:51] <asac> [reed]: oh i remember that if you want to suspend to disk you need at least mem amount of swap :)
[02:51] <[reed]> BAH
[02:51] <[reed]> ...
[02:51]  * [reed] sighs
[02:51] <cheguevara> hmmm
[02:51]  * [reed] waits for the installer to give him a cancel button
[02:51] <cheguevara> never thought of that
[02:51] <cheguevara> sorry :P
[02:52] <asac> [reed]: i would even add a bit on top of your mem to be safe
[02:52] <[reed]> think I can kill it while it's trying to partition? :)
[02:52] <asac> unwise
[02:52] <[reed]> hehe
[02:53] <[reed]> I agree
[02:53] <cheguevara> Just like Paul Thurrott, I'm re-evaluating why it really is necessary for me to have two browsers. Really, why? If Mozilla can't make an application to suit the look and feel of my Operating System then why should I bother with their product? I'm over the stage where I feel somehow better because I use browser 'A' instead of browser 'B'.
[02:53] <cheguevara> *sigh*
[02:53] <asac> he?
[02:54] <cheguevara> some guy at neowin.net
[02:54] <cheguevara> started an 11 pages forum thread discussion
[02:54] <asac> isn't ffox 3 look on win more native now too?
[02:54] <cheguevara> why would you pick your browser based on how it looks
[02:54] <[reed]> except for the theme, yes
[02:54] <asac> well, there is certainly a huge market for that ;)
[02:54] <[reed]> ;)
[02:54] <cheguevara> icons yeah, but the total looks is still quiet out of place on vista
[02:55] <[reed]> yeah
[02:55] <[reed]> we have an icon set
[02:55] <[reed]> we're just not using it yet
[02:55] <[reed]> patch is waiting on review :)
[02:55] <asac> is vista detected?
[02:55] <[reed]> yes, we can override chrome based on os version
[02:56] <[reed]> Linux can do the same thing with kernel versions
[02:56] <asac> ok so winstripe will stay the same?
[02:56] <cheguevara> yeah there's some bug with chrome redirects or something
[02:56] <[reed]> what do you mean?
[02:56] <[reed]> vista and XP will have different icons
[02:56] <asac> ah ok
[02:56] <asac> but XP will get new ones too?
[02:56] <[reed]> it already has, but they are still a work in progress
[02:57] <asac> hasn't winstripe theme been used on windows too?
[02:57] <[reed]> winstripe theme is for Windows...
[02:57] <asac> (and ... is it still the fallback for gnomestripe?)
[02:57] <[reed]> no
[02:57] <[reed]> well
[02:57] <[reed]> on toolkit it is
[02:57] <[reed]> not browser
[02:57] <cheguevara> yeah the new windows icons are quiet pixalated imho
[02:58] <asac> [reed]: ok that might have caused confusion on my side then
[02:58] <asac> didn't except  a split of those
[02:58] <asac> (fork?)
[02:58] <asac> ;)
[02:58] <cheguevara> lol
[02:58] <cheguevara> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=303477
[02:58] <cheguevara> here's new vista icons
[02:59] <asac> looks good enough imo :)
[02:59] <cheguevara> the icons or the total look?
[02:59] <[reed]> think 2051MB is enough for swap?
[03:00] <[reed]> for 2048MB of RAM
[03:00] <asac> [reed]: i don't know :) ... consider that maybe there is some meta info dumped to swap too
[03:01] <asac> but otoh you usually won't suspend right when the mem is completely utilized i guess
[03:01] <cheguevara> just do 2100 :P
[03:02] <[reed]> 50MB of meta info?
[03:02] <[reed]> I doubt it
[03:02] <[reed]> I'll go with this for now
[03:03] <cheguevara> am not saying it will be, its just a safe round number and i doubt you'll miss the extra 50 megs
[03:32] <[reed]> why am I getting 50kb/s to one of the mirrors
[03:32] <[reed]> ugh
[03:33] <cheguevara> archive.ubuntu.com ?
[03:33] <[reed]> us.a.u.c
[03:33] <cheguevara> oh
[03:34] <[reed]> back up to 400 now
[03:34] <[reed]> weird
[03:34] <[reed]> 448*
[09:10] <asac> Bug 192992
[09:10] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 192992 in python-central "[hardy] pycentral crashed with ValueError in parse_versions()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192992
[09:30] <[reed]> asac: mozilla bug 413695 -- you need to comment
[09:30] <[reed]> see the last comment
[09:30] <ubotu> Mozilla bug 413695 in Build & Release "mothball old tinderbox perf test machines" [Normal,New] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=413695
[09:35]  * asac looking
[09:41] <[reed]> er
[09:41] <[reed]> wrong bug!
[09:41] <[reed]> sorry
[09:41] <[reed]> asac: mozilla bug 411341
[09:41] <ubotu> Mozilla bug 411341 in Build & Release "mothball 1.8.0 Firefox and Thunderbird build machines" [Normal,Assigned] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=411341
[09:41] <[reed]> both had mothball in it
[09:41] <[reed]> :(
[09:42] <asac> hmm
[09:42] <asac> aren't those perf machines for 1.8.0 branch as well?
[09:59] <asac> asac: is there a bug against FF that if I have both GNOME & KDE installed, FF uses external  applications randomly choosing either a KDE or GNOME equivalent depending on the phase of the  moon :)
[09:59] <asac> [reed]: ^^ ?
[10:01] <asac> ever seen something like this in bugzilla?
[10:16] <[reed]> hmm
[10:16] <[reed]> nope
[10:16] <[reed]> that's really weird
[10:16] <[reed]> lol
[10:16] <asac> he files a bug now. no idea if thats the fault of new gio or something
[10:49] <asac> bug 193225
[10:49] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 193225 in firefox-3.0 "FF: general exception for firefox 3 extension packages signed off by the mozillateam" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193225
[13:15]  * asac lunch
[13:58] <asac> Ubulette: bug 193225
[13:58] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 193225 in firefox-3.0 "FF: general exception for firefox 3 extension packages signed off by the mozillateam" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193225
[13:58] <asac> ubotu: wake up!
[13:58] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about wake up! - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[15:27] <asac> [reed]: how can i search in bugzilla for all "approval<IP_ADDRESS>?" ?
[15:27] <asac> (or approval<IP_ADDRESS>+)
[15:27] <asac> ?
[16:14]  * asac conf call
[16:22] <armin76> put that on the whiteboard
[16:23] <armin76> i think...
[16:25] <armin76> asac: http://tinyurl.com/2kgoys
[18:01] <[reed]> asac: still need help?
[18:01] <asac> [reed]: nope :)
[18:01] <[reed]> asac: k
[18:01] <asac> found out
[18:01] <[reed]> I created a bugzilla group
[18:01] <asac> thanks
[18:01] <[reed]> for you and caillon
[18:02] <[reed]> for driving
[18:02] <asac> what purpose?
[18:02] <asac> ah ... cool
[18:02] <[reed]> see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=permissions
[18:02] <asac> has that been a request?
[18:02] <[reed]> well, dveditz was abusing security
[18:02] <asac> i think dveditz now just set security-group as drivers for 1.8.0 branch
[18:02] <[reed]> yes, that's changed now :)
[18:02] <asac> hehe ... right :)
[18:02] <[reed]> mozilla-1.8.0-drivers group now
[18:02] <asac> so people complained about spam ;)
[18:02] <asac> nice
[18:09] <asac> jtv: welcome
[18:09] <asac> ;)
[18:09] <jtv> asac: thanks :)
[18:10] <asac> [reed]: i have to go soon, just a short question: did you already associate all the required flags (blocking/approval/wanted) with that drivers group?
[18:10] <[reed]> yes
[18:10] <[reed]> asac: ^
[18:10] <asac> great ... you rock!
[18:11] <[reed]> :)
[18:32] <asac> ok out
[19:09] <Ubulette> hi
[19:09] <cheguevara> hi
[19:16] <Ubulette> i should not have subscribed to bug 192992
[19:16] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 192992 in python-central "[hardy] pycentral crashed with ValueError in parse_versions()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192992
[19:17] <Ubulette> flood bug
[19:17] <cheguevara> lol should be all fixed now
[19:17] <Ubulette> nope
[19:17] <Ubulette> part of it only
[19:18] <cheguevara> meh
[19:18] <cheguevara> sudo apt-get dist-upgrade just completed fine for me after stealing latest python-central from launchpad
[19:19] <Ubulette> now bzr is totally broken
[19:19] <cheguevara> oh
[19:19] <Ubulette> http://paste.ubuntu.com/4774/
[19:19] <Ubulette> i hate python
[19:20] <cheguevara> installed here somehow
[19:20] <cheguevara> cheguevara@cheguevara-laptop:~/Desktop$ bzr version
[19:20] <cheguevara> Bazaar (bzr) 1.2.0.candidate.1
[19:21] <Ubulette> http://paste.ubuntu.com/4775/
[19:21] <Ubulette> my bot complained a lot today :(
[19:21] <cheguevara> lol so now the mirrors are breaking :P
[19:30] <Ubulette> still broken: http://paste.ubuntu.com/4776/
[19:34] <Ubulette> hm, fresh bzr to come: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/bzr/1.2~rc1-1build1
[20:23] <cheguevara> hey armin76
[20:24] <cheguevara> Ubulette, did you get the latest python-central?
[20:24] <Ubulette> nope
[20:24] <Ubulette> python-central | 0.5.50ubuntu3 | http://archive.ubuntu.com hardy/main Packages
[20:24] <Ubulette> python-central | 0.5.50ubuntu4 | http://archive.ubuntu.com hardy/main Sources
[20:25] <cheguevara> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/12084647/python-central_0.5.50ubuntu5_all.deb
[20:25] <cheguevara> dpkg -i that
[20:25] <cheguevara> and you should be good to go
[20:27] <cheguevara> would be funny if one day both apt-get and dpkg broke
[20:29] <Ubulette> arent' jockey-common and jockey-gtk broken for you too ?
[20:30] <cheguevara> Ubulette: when installing?
[20:30] <Ubulette> upgrading. i never installed that myself, it's a dep of something
[20:31] <cheguevara> of ubuntu-desktop
[20:31] <cheguevara> but yeah its fine for me
[20:31] <Ubulette> yep
[20:31] <cheguevara> well i don't have jockey-gtk
[20:31] <cheguevara> i had to get python-central first though
[20:33] <cheguevara> now why doesn't my sound work, this is really pissing me off
[20:34] <cheguevara> oh headphones need to be un-muted
[20:34] <cheguevara> thats new
[20:35] <cheguevara> was about to embarrass myself and file a kernel bug :P
[20:35] <Ubulette> for some reason, bzr 1.2~rc1-1build1 has been built but does not appear in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/b/bzr/
[20:36] <cheguevara> its just a rebuilt anyway 1.2~rc1-1 installed fine for me with new python-central
[20:37] <cheguevara> but here it is
[20:37] <cheguevara> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/12089530/bzr_1.2%7Erc1-1build1_i386.deb
[20:37] <cheguevara> things take some time to get to archives
[20:37] <Ubulette> it's usually fast
[20:38] <Ubulette> (expect for ppa)
[20:38] <Ubulette> excepy
[20:38] <Ubulette> except
[20:38] <cheguevara> heh
[20:38] <Ubulette> i can't installed that manually, i need my bot to do it
[20:39] <Ubulette> and i don't want to patch it for that
[20:39] <cheguevara> oh right didn't realize that
[20:40] <cheguevara> now if only someone fixed wine...
[20:50] <cheguevara> http://www.frikipedia.es/images/1/1e/Ubuntu_5.11.jpg
[20:50] <cheguevara> :P
[20:50] <Ubulette> :)
[21:39] <cwong1> asac: ping
[21:40] <cwong1> asac: got your emails.  Sorry for the late response. Monday was a holiday..
[22:27] <Ubulette> cheguevara, good, full upgrade is now fine. retrying my bot now
[22:27] <cheguevara> w00t :P
[22:32] <Ubulette> yep, good too
[23:08] <Ubulette> mozilla bug 75375
[23:08] <ubotu> Mozilla bug 75375 in Style System (CSS) "support for :nth-*() pseudo-classes" [Enhancement,Assigned] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=75375
[23:09] <asac> cwong1: no problem.
[23:09] <Ubulette> mozilla bug 401291
[23:09] <ubotu> Mozilla bug 401291 in Style System (CSS) "optimize handling of dynamic changes for advanced CSS selectors" [Normal,Resolved: fixed] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401291
[23:10] <Ubulette> oh, i thought nth-*() changed from NEW to RESOLVED/FIXED
[23:10] <Ubulette> too bad
[23:10] <asac> cwong1: i see two issues we need to fix asap: 1. backout changes in toolkit and to it differently
[23:10] <asac> s/to/do/
[23:10] <asac> cwong1: 2. upgrade to beta3
[23:11] <cwong1> asac: we definitely need to upgrade to beta 3 asap
[23:11] <asac> cwong1: ok ... i have merged things locally ... there are a few glitches, but we can work that after that
[23:11] <cwong1> asac: do you know another way to doing what Jimmy did to the download dialog?
[23:11] <asac> however, i cannot commit anymor :(
[23:11] <cwong1> s/doing/do/
[23:11] <asac> cwong1: haven't looked, but it should be possible.
[23:12] <cwong1> asac: I will look into the commit issue with Johh and get back with you
[23:12] <asac> i think its just css tweaks?
[23:12] <cwong1> asac: but what about the file location?
[23:12] <asac> cwong1: yes ... its wierd, i definitly have my name in the commit message, but apparently you do some debcommit check or something backend ... i have no idea if i need to commit debian/changelog in the same commit or what :)
[23:12] <cwong1> asac: I don't think you can do this in css, can you?
[23:13] <asac> cwong1: which file location?
[23:13] <asac> ah i remember a bit
[23:13] <asac> let me look at the commits
[23:13] <cwong1> asac: we want to put media files in some pre-define location media/auio/piture/viedo
[23:14] <cwong1> asac: btw, please don't check anything one until I create a branch for our internal beta 3 release (for this friday).
[23:15] <cwong1> s/one/in/
[23:15] <asac> cwong1: ok ... ididn't want to commit the merge :)
[23:16] <asac> cwong1: let me know when the branch is open again
[23:16] <cwong1> asac: ok
[23:16] <cwong1> asac: does it make sense to have a xulrunner for mobile and one for desktop?
[23:19] <asac> well ... we should first try to either eliminate or get it into main xulrunner
[23:19] <asac> for instance: different default download directories for medias might be something upstream wants
[23:20] <cwong1> asac: when you say unstream, do you mean Ubuntu or Mozilla.org?
[23:21] <asac> mozilla+ubuntu  ... they are not really independent in this regards
[23:21] <asac> but usually i refer to mozilla as upstream
[23:22] <cwong1> I dont think mozilla would want our default download directories.  These directories might not be appropriate on other Linux Platform.
[23:22] <asac> welll ... afaik there similar directory names available by xdg
[23:24] <asac> but i agree that its unlikely
[23:26] <cwong1> asac: I also have another problem that might required changes in the toolkit directory.  I might have to modify the widget creation routine so that I have to create a widget container based on "MOKO" and then place the regular widget inside it.
[23:26] <asac> MOKO?
[23:26] <cwong1> s/required/require/
[23:27] <cwong1> MOKO is a finger scrolling library widget that we have and it is being used by many of our applets
[23:27] <cwong1> Here is the situation:
[23:28] <cwong1> right now with the preference, download and addon windows up, and if you bring up the virtual keyboard, it will obscure part of the windows and there is no easy way to navigate to the control that you want in the window.
[23:30] <cwong1> If we put those windows inside a moko widget, it will automatically allow the user to scroll to any part of the window using the touch of the finger.
[23:30] <cwong1> This is another reason why I suggest to have a special build of xulrunner for the mobile platform.
[23:31] <asac> cwong1: ok i think i understand a bit.
[23:31] <asac> (though i don't understand the point of virtual keyboard hiding parts of the window ... i always thought that the window just resizes)
[23:32] <asac> but that isn't important
[23:32] <asac> in general i agree that it might make sense to fork xulrunner for mobile
[23:32] <cwong1> asac: ok then.  one for mobile.
[23:32] <asac> the only risk i see is that things are done in a hacky fashion
[23:32] <asac> and in the end we will end up in a situation where we cannot get back to mainline
[23:33] <cwong1> well, Any change we make here, I will run it by you from now on.  Will this help?
[23:33] <asac> for instance: the media folder feature could be done in toolkit/ without breaking the normal firefox: e.g. introducing a new autodownload variant, which you can setup and configure
[23:34] <cwong1> asac: ok,  I will let Jimmy know about this.
[23:35] <asac> cwong1: i am fine with this for now. but experience shows that code that landed once will not be touched unless it breaks.
[23:35] <asac> :)
[23:35] <cwong1> heheehe
[23:35] <asac> and usually nobody will want to put more resources into something that already works more or less :)
[23:35] <cwong1> btw, what is responsible for building the xulrunner?
[23:35] <asac> cwong1: at best we could always keep changes to toolkit so minimal that we can maintain .patch files for the _few_ issues we tackle
[23:36] <asac> in that way i can use the same source package.
[23:36] <asac> just patched a bit more for lpia or something
[23:37] <asac> cwong1: what do you mean by "what is responsible" ?
[23:37] <cwong1> s/what/who/
[23:37] <asac> good question.
[23:37] <cwong1> sorry, I was aiming with my daugther on anther pc :(
[23:37] <asac> let me chew this night on this and think about our options
[23:37] <asac> can we chat tomorrow?
[23:38] <cwong1> yes
[23:38] <cwong1> btw,  I tried building it using my midbrowser source tree and it didn't work
[23:38] <asac> ok good. pleas create the branch ... then i can commit the beta 3 merge
[23:38] <asac> cwong1: xulrunner? ... hmm ... maybe we don't have all
[23:39] <asac> sources ... actually for sure we are lacking some files
[23:39] <cwong1> yes I dont think we have all the files for building Xulrunner
[23:39] <asac> but we should really reconsider how we maintain those two
[23:39] <cwong1> I will let you know tomorrow on the branch creation.
[23:39] <cwong1> ok
[23:39] <asac> i will think about it till tomorrow
[23:39] <asac> thanks
[23:39] <cwong1> thanks


[16:01] <locodir-user> hi
[16:10] <pavlushka> Hey walrider ! whassup?
[16:13] <walrider> ha bhai valo apni valo asen ? pavlushka
[16:14] <pavlushka> hmm, অনেকদিন পর!
[16:14] <pavlushka> walrider: কী অবস্থা?
[16:14] <walrider> p2p chat client khujtesi akta
[16:17] <pavlushka> walrider: লিনাক্সে না উইন্ডোজে?
[16:17] <walrider> bujhi nai
[16:17] <walrider> blank text ?
[16:18] <pavlushka> walrider: লিনাক্সে না উইন্ডোজে?
[16:18] <walrider> ?
[16:18] <pavlushka> walrider: for which platform?
[16:19] <walrider> better to be a cross platform
[16:22] <walrider> jeishob platform gula ase shob LAN p2p
[16:22] <walrider> there is no way to expose those client to the web
[16:25] <pavlushka> walrider: in that case you have to use high end chatting softwares because there may be many machines behind one ip, so if you are not on that lan/wan behind that ip, then you have no way but to use a high end chatting software
[16:25] <pavlushka> walrider: because not every machine has a unique ip for itself
[16:26] <walrider> hmm
[16:26] <pavlushka> to communicate with the machine individually behind some ip
[16:26] <pavlushka> s/machine/machines
[16:26] <u-la-la> pavlushka meant to say: to communicate with the machines individually behind some ip
[16:27] <walrider> hmm ok im installing skype for now
[16:28] <pavlushka> walrider: you can use google hangouts also
[16:28] <pavlushka> for that purpose
[16:28] <walrider> hangout dosnt have any executable app
[16:29] <walrider> for pc
[16:29] <walrider> its bassed on chrome
[16:29] <walrider> and im not including chrome in my work
[16:29] <walrider> will ruin everything
[16:29] <pavlushka> walrider: এটা firefox এও চলে
[16:30] <walrider> executable app lagbo bhai
[16:31] <pavlushka> walrider: you have pidgin also, its crossplatform
[16:31] <walrider> oh yes pidgin
[16:32] <walrider> akdom went forgotten :D XD
[16:32] <pavlushka> :D
[16:33] <walrider> ty for mone koraia dawar jonno bru :d
[16:34] <pavlushka> ha ha ha
[16:36] <walrider> btw dinner korsen brother ? pavlushka
[16:36] <pavlushka> hmm
[16:36] <pavlushka> walrider: অামি জানি অাপনি করেন নি :পি
[16:37] <walrider> blanck text
[16:37] <walrider> blank*
[16:37] <pavlushka> walrider: ami jani apni dinner korenni
[16:37] <pavlushka> :p
[16:38] <walrider> korsi bhai :P
[16:38] <pavlushka> ha ha ha
[16:38] <pavlushka> walrider: apni onek mojar, so do your FB profile
[16:39] <walrider> XD
[16:40] <pavlushka> walrider: you should be more like that on everywhere (including here and our FB group)
[16:40] <walrider> atm im out of web laptop is dying and android already dead
[16:41] <pavlushka> walrider: taile eikhane kemne?
[16:41] <walrider> xchat.exe
[16:41] <walrider> widnow app
[16:41] <pavlushka> cool
[16:41] <pavlushka> hmm
[16:41] <walrider> i mean windows
[16:41] <pavlushka> walrider: .exe tei bujchi
[16:41] <walrider> at tasara clint na thakleo shomossha nai
[16:42] <walrider> webchat,freenode to asei
[16:42] <walrider> browser e kaj chole
[16:42] <pavlushka> hmm
[16:42] <pavlushka> walrider: ar shob kemon choltese? web admin?
[16:43] <walrider> kono kisui chole na bhai X(
[16:43] <pavlushka> walrider: ken ki hoise?
[16:44] <walrider> aktu dour er upor asi
[16:44] <walrider> job tob nai
[16:44] <walrider> atm ak friender kaj e help kortesi
[16:44] <walrider> ei arki
[16:44] <walrider> no earning
[16:44] <walrider> only destroying foods
[16:45] <pavlushka> walrider: somossha nai, sociel work o dorkar
[16:46] <pavlushka> walrider: apni kisu kortesen, boshe nai, friend er help hochche, adds up to the national economy in a way :p
[16:47] <pavlushka> walrider: ebhave friend er productivity barbe, will add to the GDP :p
[16:47] <walrider> and ill have to run some of pentesting OS for some projects like bypasing traces so need a good machine which i dont have atm
[16:47] <pavlushka> walrider: yaa man, me too
[16:48] <walrider> bypasing for earn more for $$ from USA not any iligel way ofcourse
[16:48] <pavlushka> walrider: try to use your pi, that's a computer, just without storage :)
[16:49] <walrider> PI kinteo almost 40-50$ lage bro dont have that much atm
[16:49] <pavlushka> walrider: sorry pi is atleast not a high end machine
[16:50] <pavlushka> walrider: but I have figured a way to use my android to use as a pi display using vnc, I can go mobile with my pi in taht way
[16:51] <walrider> power IC of my android is dead
[16:51] <pavlushka>  android as a pi display using vnc
[16:52] <pavlushka> walrider: that's good, replace the power ic :)
[16:52] <walrider> almost 2k needed to do that its better to get a new phone by adding 3k more
[16:52] <pavlushka> should cost less than replacing a damaged display
[16:52] <walrider> bad den button phone chalai edai valo :D
[16:54] <pavlushka> cool
[16:55] <walrider> new tai nibo
[16:55] <walrider> ar pc nibo akta
[16:55] <walrider> soon
[16:55] <pavlushka> better
[16:55] <walrider> grub e tripple OS diye use korbo
[16:55] <pavlushka> walrider: eyeing on AMD ryzen 7
[16:55] <walrider> xubuntu my old love kali and windows 7
[16:55] <walrider> xD
[16:56] <walrider> ryzen is expensive for now
[16:56] <walrider> focusing on intel
[16:57] <pavlushka> walrider: gaming + graphics, woooooo
[16:58] <walrider> hmm gaming to ofcourse
[16:58] <pavlushka> lol
[17:00] <pavlushka> walrider: I am fixing someone else's pi atm,
[17:00] <walrider> niec
[17:01] <walrider> nice*
[17:01] <pavlushka> ty
[17:02] <pavlushka> I can use my scanner on that pi as well
[17:03] <pavlushka> setup an android system on that pi few days ago
[17:03] <pavlushka> trying to add gapp to that android pi system but so far not so good
[17:06] <absolute> https://ghostbin.com/paste/rpvzp
[17:06] <u-la-la> [ rpvzp - Ghostbin ] - https://ghostbin.com
[17:09] <pavlushka> lol, read it a year back
[17:15] <pavlushka> walrider: I try to be here for almost everyone who is not here.
[17:16] <pavlushka> walrider: say Hi often, will be nice and will make me happy :p
[17:16] <walrider> dadu bhai koi
[17:16] <pavlushka> 4 din dhore nai
[17:16] <walrider> ok shemessha nai bhai xchat jotodin ashe amio asi np
[17:16] <walrider> busy naki dadu
[17:16] <pavlushka> walrider: no clue
[17:22] <walrider> away from keyboard
[17:22] <walrider> < afk
[17:22] <pavlushka> ok
[17:52] <absolute> Does dhakacom.com have plans for setting up mirror for debian packages?
[20:27] <pavlushka> tata walrider


[01:38] <wgrant> Where would I file a bug about the panel configuration in the installer?
[01:38] <hggdh> ubuiquity?
[01:38] <hggdh> or debian-installer
[01:39] <wgrant> It's the panel config used around Ubiquity, though. Not Ubiquity itself.
[01:42] <hggdh> oh. Then I am sorry, I do not know.
[01:56] <charlie-tca> wgrant: file it against ubiquity and it will get moved to the right place. Ubiquity or casper handles pretty much everything to do with installer
[02:00] <wgrant> charlie-tca: Thanks.
[06:52] <kaushal> hi
[06:52] <kaushal> how can i start helping in fixing bugs
[06:52] <micahg> kaushal: this is the wrong place to 'fix' bugs, we 'triage' in here :)
[06:52] <kaushal> ok
[06:52] <micahg> kaushal: would you like to start with that? or are you set on 'fixing'?
[06:53] <kaushal> start with
[06:53] <micahg> kaushal: k :)
[06:53] <kaushal> actually to be precise
[06:53] <kaushal> micahg: please guide
[06:53] <micahg> kaushal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage
[06:53] <kaushal> Triage means ?
[06:54] <micahg> kaushal: triage is making sure there is enough information in a bug for the developers
[06:54] <kaushal> micahg: ok
[06:54] <kaushal> so do i need to register myself ?
[06:55] <micahg> kaushal: you can request a mentor here: https://edge.launchpad.net/~bugsquad-mentorship
[06:56] <kaushal> micahg: what does it mean ?
[06:56] <kaushal> please help me understand
[06:56] <micahg> kaushal: someone to one on one guide you
[06:56] <kaushal> oh ok
[06:56] <micahg> kaushal: but you can always feel free to ask questions in here
[06:57] <kaushal> micahg: so its a best place
[06:57] <kaushal> right
[06:58] <micahg> kaushal: yeah, that's what we do in here, triage
[07:01] <kaushal> micahg: you motivated me :D
[07:01] <kaushal> appreciate it
[07:02] <kaushal> micahg: also if i want to fix the bugs is it easy to do ?
[07:03] <micahg> kaushal: that depends on your abilities, I don't want to discourage you from fixing as well
[07:03] <micahg> that's harder to mentor
[07:06] <kaushal> micahg: so what all programming languages to be known ?
[07:07] <kaushal> to help in fixing the bugs ?
[07:07] <micahg> kaushal: python, C, C++, Java, Ruby, PHP, just about anything
[07:07] <kaushal> ok
[07:07] <kaushal> thats a lot :(
[07:08] <micahg> kaushal: any of them are fine :)
[07:08] <kaushal> ok
[08:32] <vish> !tags
[08:32] <ubot2> We use some common tags for tracking bugs on Launchpad.net See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Tags for common usage.
[08:33] <vish> !tags-#ubuntu-bugs is <reply> We use some common tags for tracking bugs on Launchpad.net See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags for common usage.
[08:33] <ubot2> vish: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[08:34] <vish> hrm!
[08:35] <vish> !tags-ubuntu-bugs is <reply> We use some common tags for tracking bugs on Launchpad.net See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags for common usage.
[08:35] <ubot2> vish: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[08:35] <vish> arg! :(
[08:35] <nigelb> !tags-ubuntu-bugs is <reply>We use some common tags for tracking bugs on Launchpad.net See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags for common usage.
[08:35] <ubot2> nigelb: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[08:35] <vish> !tags-#ubuntu-bugs <reply> We use some common tags for tracking bugs on Launchpad.net See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags for common usage.
[08:35] <ubot2> vish: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[08:35] <nigelb> ok, genuinely problematic
[08:35] <vish> stupid bot!
[08:35]  * nigelb kicks ubot2
[08:36] <nigelb> !factoids
[08:36] <ubot2> Hi! I'm #ubuntu-bugs's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi | Usage info: http://ubottu.com/devel/wiki/Plugins | Bot channels and general info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Bots
[08:36] <micahg> vish: he's already claimed that title :)
[08:44] <vish> !tags is <reply> We use some common tags for tracking bugs on Launchpad.net See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags for common usage.
[08:45] <vish> ah, it turned out to be not -bugs specific
[08:46] <vish> !tags
[08:46] <ubot2> We use some common tags for tracking bugs on Launchpad.net See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Tags for common usage.
[08:46] <vish> oh its will take a bit of time to sync! ;)
[09:37] <vish> !tags
[09:37] <ubot2> We use some common tags for tracking bugs on Launchpad.net See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags for common usage.
[09:38] <vish> \o/
[10:01] <njm> Hey Guys, since I updated my Ubuntu 10.04 Remix on my netbook, my 3G USB Dongle doesn't work anymore...  It says: waiting for usb device to settle in dmesg.  Any ideas?
[13:56] <persia> zyga, You might try apport-collect on an existing bug also, or to grab the bug details, and run apport-retrace locally
[13:56] <zyga> persia, I'll reproduce the bug and see if I get a full backtrace this time
[13:56] <zyga> yes!
[13:57] <zyga> pretty
[13:57] <persia> zyga, The nice thing about apport-retrace is that it automatically calculates the correct set of ddebs to install :)
[13:57] <zyga> persia, is there a way to use apport when using gdb directly on the crashed program?
[13:58] <persia> I'm not sure.  When I can't figure it out from reading the stacktrace, I'll usually run apport-retrace locally first, and then just use gdb (as the symbols are now all available)
[13:58] <persia> But to be honest, if I can't figure it out from the stacktrace, I usually find another bug to fix :)
[14:01] <hggdh> zyga: if you are GDB-ing a programme, and it crashes, apport will *not* get kicked
[14:02] <hggdh> and to make more clear what persia said: (1) sudo apport-retrace -o trash <crashFile> <- this will install any needed dbgsym packages;
[14:03] <hggdh> (2) after (1) finishes: apport-retrace -g <crashFile> <- this will start GDB on the crash
[14:04] <hggdh> and... morning persia :-)
[14:05] <persia> hggdh, Thanks: I shouldn't assume people read manpages as much as I do :)
[14:09] <zyga> thanks guys, I de-duped this problem and added some notes
[14:10] <kamusin> :)
[15:28] <bcurtiswx_> can i apt-get source a lucid package from maverick?
[15:30] <persia> bcurtiswx, Yes, but it's tricky.
[15:30] <bcurtiswx_> hmm, i will just steal it from LP then.. thx persia
[15:30] <persia> Options: 1) change "maverick" to "lucid" on your deb-src lines in sources.list
[15:31] <persia> 2) add duplicate lucid deb-src lines, and pass the version to apt when requesting the download
[15:31] <persia> 3) create a lucid schroot in maverick, and grab it inside the schroot
[15:31] <persia> Personally, I use 3) because it's handy to have schroots around for testing anyway.
[15:32] <bcurtiswx_> i can pbuilder-lucid it
[15:32] <bcurtiswx_> or at least, im more used to that
[15:32] <persia> There you go then :)
[15:33] <persia> Just login to your pbuilder chroot, apt-get source somewhere bind-mounted, and have at it.
[15:39] <bcurtiswx_> persia, thx again :)
[15:50] <hggdh> there is pull-lp-source also: pull-lp-source whatever lucid
[16:09]  * bcurtiswx_ hugs hggdh
[18:27] <AbhiJit> hello
[18:34] <AbhiJit> hello
[18:34] <AbhiJit> in this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/644536 what does he mean by 'passing' to browser? because copy pasting is not re producing the error.
[18:34] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 644536 in evolution (Ubuntu) "truncates long clickable URL links (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New]
[18:34] <vish> AbhiJit: i can confirm that bug.. ;)
[18:35] <AbhiJit> no :(
[18:35]  * AbhiJit wants to confirm!
[18:35] <AbhiJit> :(
[18:35] <AbhiJit> vish, can you reproduce that bug? how? what is 'passing to browser'?
[18:35] <vish> AbhiJit: lol, i meant i can see that bug happening..
[18:35] <vish> AbhiJit: you can confirm :)
[18:36] <AbhiJit> vish, yah but how can you reproduce that? copy pasting the urn from evlution to chromium is not reproducing that bug here!
[18:36] <vish> AbhiJit: if you have a long link in emails,esp in plain text mails, the email will cut the link in two lines, if you click the link evolution will only recognize the first line
[18:37] <vish> AbhiJit: its almost like pasting a very long link in irc..
[18:37] <AbhiJit> vish, yah i send one email to my gmail using the same long link in the bug and its not clickable. i need to copy paste but it was not truncated
[18:38] <vish> AbhiJit: "not clickable" is what the bug is about ;)
[18:38]  * vish reads again..
[18:38] <AbhiJit> vish, no it isnt
[18:39] <vish> AbhiJit: to me thats what the "passing off" means
[18:39] <vish> AbhiJit: you can ask a question and get that clarified :)
[18:39] <AbhiJit> vish, ok thanks!
[18:39] <vish> AbhiJit: btw, howz the mentoring going on.. ?
[18:40] <AbhiJit> vish, not going on. because not having commaon available online time. my college is full day and he is busy also thats why i came here to ask !
[18:40] <AbhiJit> :(
[18:41] <vish> AbhiJit: hmm.. what time is best for you now?
[18:41] <vish> maybe we can switch mentors..
[18:41] <AbhiJit> vish, sunday! one hour!
[18:41] <vish> AbhiJit: heh! no mentor for you! ;p
[18:41] <AbhiJit> ohh!!! :(
[18:41] <vish> j/k
[18:41] <AbhiJit> yah
[18:41] <AbhiJit> :)
[18:41] <vish> AbhiJit: just ask here when you have doubts ..
[18:42] <AbhiJit> vish, ok i wll
[18:43] <vish> AbhiJit: i'm kinda sure there must be a bug for that in evolution already..
[18:43] <vish> its been like that as long as i remember, so someone might have already filed a bug..
[18:43] <AbhiJit> vish, i see now actualy i am not doing anytihng to that bug because i ddnt understood it!!!
[18:44] <AbhiJit> also i cant reproduce it!
[18:46] <AbhiJit> ok vish m going to sleep! what about you?
[18:46] <vish> AbhiJit: i'm going to get up!
[18:47] <AbhiJit> :o
[18:47] <AbhiJit> vish, bye gn sd! :)
[18:47] <vish> bye..
[19:58] <hggdh> *very* nice: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/sep/21/password-security-cory-doctorow?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
[19:59] <hggdh> without the source tagging: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/sep/21/password-security-cory-doctorow
[20:09] <kamusin> Do you know where are the testcases now in qa tracker? I have been searching for example this http://pairwise.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/4550/486 but I can't find it
[20:09] <kamusin> ping aara!
[20:20] <hggdh> kamusin: have you tried the new site (http://qa.ubunutu.com)
[20:20] <kamusin> not yet, I have checked few minutes ago qa.ubuntu.com :P
[20:21] <kamusin> hehe
[20:21] <hggdh> duh. kamusin qa.ubuntu.com (mistyped)
[20:22] <kamusin> now our site looks like Angelina jolie
[20:25]  * micahg misses the sponsoring page
[21:01] <bcurtiswx_> bug watch updater = Helpdesk??
[22:10] <devildante> hggdh, the qa site looks great :)
[22:12] <hggdh> devildante: yes, ara & co. did a pretty good job
[23:13] <Guest71932> hi can i here report a bug about maverick merkat?
[23:15] <kklimonda> Guest71932: no, you should read https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs - in brief use either Help->Report a Problem... or ubuntu-bug <package name>
[23:17] <Guest71932> i was register on that page, but dont now how and whre can i report a bug about bluetooth problem with kernel since 2.6.33
[23:19] <kklimonda> we've never had .33 kernel
[23:20] <Guest71932> it is not spezifik an ubuntu problem, all of linux distros have it on my laptop acer travelmate tm8571
[23:20] <kklimonda> if you think it's a kernel issue you can use ubuntu-bug linux
[23:20] <kklimonda> in this case you should report it upstream, http://bugzilla.kernel.org
[23:21] <Guest71932> i now in lucid is int a problem, but maverick m. daily cd of today and other distros since new kernle
[23:22] <Guest71932> i am wondering, my laptop is an linux laptop not windows


[16:08] <TheMuso> c
[17:12] <azm> Hi. Just read blog post
[17:12] <azm> thats pity
[17:14] <JFo> azm, what blog post?
[17:15] <azm> http://dullass.blogspot.com/2010/08/state-of-ubuntu-studio-2010.html
[17:18] <azm> well at least I help with stayin in this chan for this moment
[17:38] <JFo> ScottL, nice blog post :)
[21:57] <stochastic> scott-work, are you around?
[21:57] <scott-work> stochastic: i am about to leave in 2.2496 secs
[21:57] <scott-work> s/secs/minutes
[21:57] <scott-work> 2.2495 minutes
[21:58] <scott-work> but i'll be home in approximately one hour though
[21:58] <stochastic> scott-work, okay, it's not that important, talk to you later
[21:58] <scott-work> stochastic: will you be around at that time, want to talk then?
[21:59] <stochastic> probably, but might be busy myself, ask me then
[21:59] <scott-work> righty-o !
[22:24] <stochastic> ScottL, I was just in the process of editing the workflow wiki and was about to include a workflow for creating soundtracks for movies (was going to put it in the audio section) when I realized there was one already created
[22:25] <stochastic> Not only is it in the video section of the page, but it uses Open Movie Editor in place of XJadeo (the app I normally use)
[22:26] <persia> stochastic, In the spirit of opinionated defaults, do you have a strong opinion why XJadeo is better than Open Movie Editor for that purpose?
[22:28] <stochastic> persia, yes, the intended purpose was to have a video playback that syncs with either jack's or ardour's timecode so that the audio editing can be done in sync with the video
[22:28] <persia> Excellent.  Let's make it better.
[22:28] <persia> My recommendation would be to send a mail to the list with both workflows and an argument why the one using XJadeo is better.
[22:29] <stochastic> Open Movie Editor is very large and has many more features than is required for this task, XJadeo is a basic stripped down player whose primary function is to sync with either jack or ardour's timecode
[22:29] <persia> It's not hard to switch, but I'd much rather just select one thing.
[22:29] <stochastic> me too
[22:29] <stochastic> persia, I'd like to hear your explanation as to why denemo should be removed in favour of mscore
[22:30] <persia> The other side of things is whether it's better to teach users to use several parts of Open Movie Editor, rather than several tools.  I'm a fan of the do-one-thing-well model rather than the everything-in-one-interface model, but it does make extra work for the docs folk.
[22:30] <persia> Oh, the main reason is that denemo is exceedingly painful to maintain, and sometimes rather broken when we try to release.
[22:31] <stochastic> I think most of the other features of Open Movie Editor are already duplicated in other pieces of software in the video task (OpenShot, Blender)
[22:32] <persia> That sounds like a compelling argument to make Open Movie Editor an alternative application, rather than one of the featured applications.
[22:33] <stochastic> re:Denemo, I have no attachment to Denemo, but am VERY attached to it's backend Lilypond (and the lilypond editor Frescobaldi) they have features that no other notation applications have and produce some of the most beautiful scores around - however they are not beginner friendly
[22:34] <persia> Denemo is frescobaldi except without the attention to detail
[22:35] <persia> But yeah, I agree lilypond is wonderful: I'm just not sure it's worth the effort to try to make it reasonable for new users when musescore is available, works with our stuff, and has an active upstream who have been involved with us for some time.
[22:35] <stochastic> Frescobaldi does not have a point-click interface, it's meant as an text editor with graphical display, Denemo tries to be a point-click interface for Lilypond
[22:36]  * stochastic will not be able to be convinced that we should drop Lilypond (but really couldn't care that much about which beginner-friendly editor we ship with)
[22:37] <stochastic> persia, I like your arguments for musescore, but I believe that it serves a different audience than Lilypond
[22:38] <persia> I agree.
[22:38] <persia> So, I don't want to drop lilypond from the archive, and I think it's worth us putting effort into testing it and making sure it's maintained.
[22:39] <persia> That said, I also think it's better to ship musescore in the images (if it works well enough), and encourage folk who need it to install lilypond later.
[22:39] <persia> Does my position make more sense now?
[22:39] <stochastic> yes
[22:40] <stochastic> ScottL, I know you're not home yet, but maybe it's something to consider keeping workflows on that wiki page that include applications not in Ubuntu Studio's metas
[22:40] <persia> I wonder if we oughtn't have two pages: "Recommended Workflows" and "Alternate Workflows"
[22:41] <persia> We can point folk at the Alternates if they need something the recommended ones don't service, if it's documented there.
[22:41] <persia> And we can review alternates each release to determine if we want to swap things around.
[22:41] <stochastic> I think two pages would be unnecessary, we just need to mark certain workflows with items like "Advanced" or "Install program X"
[22:42] <stochastic> nothing wrong with having an install step as part of the workflow
[22:42] <persia> I don't like "Advanced" because it scares folk off.  There are lots of folks who self-identify as newbies who have workflows that would need such tools.
[22:43] <stochastic> fair enough
[22:43] <persia> My main argument in favour of two pages is to reduce the scope of the primary docs to something that makes it translation-friendly.
[22:43] <persia> Once we have regularly updated docs and sufficient translators, then I'd be happy to expand to include off-image workflows by default.
[22:44] <persia> And, yeah, nothing wrong with the first step being to install something, I just think we ought to encourage folk to look at the things already working by default.
[22:45] <stochastic> my main argument in favour of one page would be that the page is still in early development stages and breaking it up may result in doubling of workflows and info
[22:46] <stochastic> I think we're still in the "brainstorm of workflows" time period
[22:46] <persia> Oh, then I completely agree with you, as long as we can separate/filter later once ScottL decides what belongs on the images.
[22:46] <stochastic> once the page is well developed, then we can start to sort it into "on-image" "off-image" workflows if needed
[22:47] <stochastic> and a second page may not be the best method, maybe just move those later workflows to a lower section of that page, as many users wouldn't visit a second page
[22:48] <stochastic> ^^ maybe
[22:48] <persia> Dunno.  That's the sort of detail decision I think is better left to whoever is willing to manage the documentation.
[22:48] <stochastic> fair enough
[22:49] <persia> Have to provide some incentive :)
[22:49] <stochastic> :)
[23:49] <ScottL> hi stochastic and persia, i would point out that zettberlin (i think) said that OpenMovieEditor isn't actively developed anymore
[23:49] <persia> An extra argument for not using it by default.  I'm liking this way of reviewing applications more and more
[23:50] <ScottL> :)
[23:50] <ScottL> i also see we need to remove the 'mscore' package and use 'musescore' in natty
[23:50]  * ScottL hopes he understands it correctly
[23:50] <persia> I think we'll inherit that from Debian, as it's still needed for squeeze uploads.
[23:51] <persia> s/uploads/upgrades/
[23:52] <ScottL> i really appreciate the effort from the community to help with the workflows, it's absolutely amazing and fascinating
[23:52] <ScottL> however if we used all the applications they suggested our image would be even bigger than it is now perhaps :P
[23:52] <persia> I think it's worth adding some direction based on the discussion stochastic and I had above about primary and alternate solutions.
[23:53] <persia> But that might need someone to be the documentation coordinator, etc. (ideal candidate would be willing to fill roles both in Ubuntu Studio and Ubuntu Docs, etc.)
[23:54] <persia> And then you can select some subset of workflows that would enable 80%+ supported use for identified audience, etc.