[02:05] <DarkTan> i need help. When i try to do i fresh install, i get all the way through to the formatting stage. At this point it jumps to 33% locks up and the "caps lock" and "scroll lock" lights on the key board flash
[02:05] <DarkTan> is that an error code for something?
[02:07] <charlie-tca> If this is a laptop, it sounds like an error code
[02:08] <DarkTan> no, it's a desk top.
[02:08] <DarkTan> it also seems to see my ide drives as SCSI drives
[02:12] <charlie-tca> DarkTan: the drives as SCSI is built into the kernel, now.
[02:12] <DarkTan> oh ok
[02:13] <charlie-tca> the blinking lights, i don't know
[02:19] <Odd-rationale> i get that wen i have like a kernel panic...
[02:27] <DarkTan> that is what they tell in #kubuntu
[02:28] <DarkTan> appearently memory failuer
[02:28] <DarkTan> failure*
[04:56] <umarzuki> hi all
[04:56] <umarzuki> my ubuntu desktop screwed
[04:56] <umarzuki> so i had to make a new user and access from there
[04:57] <umarzuki> it's only GUI problem, nothing big but still it's an eyesore
[05:00] <umarzuki> i just need to change it to default back like from day 1 i install it
[06:33] <flight> Hello.
[06:34] <XFCEntral> hi
[06:36] <flight> I <3 the current beta. Feels like it was made for my system. :-)
[06:38] <XFCEntral> one week til 8.10! :)
[06:39] <flight> Indeed. Will there be Ibex launch parties?
[06:40] <XFCEntral> no doubt!
[06:42] <whileimhere> Hi.
[06:42] <whileimhere> When I add the volume manager to my taskbar (top or bottom) it doesnt show up. Any idea why?
[06:44] <XFCEntral> thats a glitch ive run into myself. have you tried dragging it from the list of Panel Items, straight to your panel?
[06:44] <whileimhere> no I will though
[06:44] <XFCEntral> worked for me, let me know
[06:44] <whileimhere> Yep that worked great
[06:45] <XFCEntral> awesome. strange bug isnt it?
[06:45] <whileimhere> I now have Frozen Bubble music to listen to for the next 4 hours!
[06:45] <whileimhere> Yeah really.
[06:45] <XFCEntral> haha youll be hearing that in your sleep. yeah my panel items disappear on bootup, or change panels occasionally
[06:45] <XFCEntral> :/ lol
[06:45] <whileimhere> Are there any other cool games like FB out there?
[06:46] <XFCEntral> i like bomberclone--essentially Bomberman
[06:46] <whileimhere> ohhh must download now!
[06:46] <XFCEntral> just some moving around and placing bombs. same amount of involvement.
[06:46] <XFCEntral> haha oh yeah its great
[06:46] <whileimhere> stupid question but is XFCE really lighter on resources than GNOME and KDE? I dont see much of a difference in the ram stats for any of them.
[06:47] <XFCEntral> slightly. depends on the apps you use though
[06:47] <whileimhere> Well one thing I do notice is that Digikam loads faster on XFCE than the other desktops.
[06:48] <whileimhere> I don't like F-Spot at all.
[06:48] <XFCEntral> if your machine is fairly underpowered, Xfce is a difference over GNOME and KDE. you may not see a huge benefit though. ive been giving Fluxbox a try, but i can now see where Xfce is a happy medium between looks and speed
[06:48] <XFCEntral> f-spot is awful haha
[06:48] <whileimhere> I am just getting used to the whole GIMP thing being an ex-photoshoper.
[06:48] <XFCEntral> it makes new directories! i hate that.
[06:48] <XFCEntral> yeahh
[06:48] <XFCEntral> i still find it hard to use GIMP at the same comfort level
[06:48] <whileimhere> I love the whole SDLMAME and ADVMAME thing on here though.
[06:49] <XFCEntral> apparently the latest version is moving toward Photoshop-like use
[06:49] <whileimhere> GIMP has a strange (to me at least) way of organizing its menus
[06:49] <flight> Hm. Yeah, noticed that too. The windows are now easier to manage
[06:49] <XFCEntral> oh they are? good news. ive been waiting for that...
[06:49] <XFCEntral> i read they are all in the same window-ish
[06:50] <whileimhere> And I hate the whole three seperate windows thing in GIMP.
[06:50] <flight> The tool and layer/color windows are now ALWAYS on top of the drawing window
[06:50] <XFCEntral> _especially_ if youre using compositing on Xubuntu, for transparency of inactive windows
[06:50] <XFCEntral> flight: Niiiice
[06:51] <whileimhere> eally?
[06:51] <XFCEntral> i dont often use the compositor, but it obviously made the inactive tool set difficult to see
[06:51] <whileimhere> Really?
[06:51] <flight> Yup
[06:51] <whileimhere> I need to get that new version. I use Xubuntu 7.10 because the newer versions make my wireless all buggy.
[06:51] <flight> BTW I'm using the GIMP from Xubuntu 8.10 Beta
[06:51] <flight> 2.6
[06:52] <XFCEntral> nice. i cant wait to upgrade
[06:52] <whileimhere> My only complaint with XFCE is there is no drag nad drop for placement of icons in the panel from the menu.
[06:52] <XFCEntral> that would be nice
[06:53] <flight> Ah
[06:53] <XFCEntral> GNOME lets you make panel items from apps already in your menu--no manual setup
[06:53] <XFCEntral> perfect. lol
[06:53] <flight> whileimhere, true
[06:53] <whileimhere> I like how its fast on this laptop.
[06:54] <whileimhere> I have a cheap laptop with an atheron cpu and only a gig of ram and no dedicated video ram.
[06:54] <flight> Atleast you have a Gig of ram. I only have 512
[06:54] <XFCEntral> flight: same
[06:55] <whileimhere> Well the video takes 128 of it right away
[06:55] <flight> But Xubuntu flies on my system
[06:55] <XFCEntral> using Xubuntu 7.10 on my asus EEE. 4GB solid state, 512 ram
[06:55] <XFCEntral> underclocked to about 600mhz
[06:55] <whileimhere> Ive never seen one of those.
[06:56] <XFCEntral> ohh. theyre very small laptops. haha
[06:56] <whileimhere> God its 2 am and I cannot sleep! This is bleepty bleep bleep!
[06:56] <flight> You're in the east coast?
[06:56] <XFCEntral> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus_eee
[06:57] <whileimhere> Yes.
[06:57] <whileimhere> I have 3 cracked ribs and laying down is really hurting right now.
[06:57] <whileimhere> So I am awake
[06:58] <flight> Ouch.
[06:59] <whileimhere> Well I have just uploaded my 10,000 plus photos onto this machine and should sort through them sometime on digikam in the nea future
[06:59] <whileimhere> so I guess staying awake is okay for now until work in the morning.
[06:59] <XFCEntral> eek
[07:00] <flight> I second that 'eek'
[07:00] <whileimhere> That Asus PC looks cool.
[07:00] <whileimhere> Sor t of like my little mac book
[07:00] <XFCEntral> yeah! the main photo is of the eee 701. thats mine--a little outdated already with a 7" screen.
[07:01] <XFCEntral> now theyre up to 10" if your prefer, and theres of course still a 9" model. decent laptops
[07:01] <flight> BTW, do we have any graphical font installers for XFCE?
[07:02] <whileimhere> hmm I never saw anything about them. I know that in gnome I just unpacked them to the .fonts folder.
[07:03] <flight> hmm. I still do the fc-cache -fv
[07:04] <flight> Maybe I'll just make a script when I have the time
[07:05] <whileimhere> ow
[07:05] <whileimhere> WOW
[07:05] <whileimhere> There are so many cute games on here.
[07:06] <XFCEntral> whileimhere: are those the GNOME games?
[07:06] <whileimhere> Partly
[07:06] <whileimhere> But there are these arcade clones of space invaders
[07:07] <whileimhere> and there are the atari clones of bomberman
[07:07] <wormsxulla> \o/ space invaders!
[07:07] <XFCEntral> yess
[07:07] <XFCEntral> ive tried emulators but really, i give up. lol
[07:07] <XFCEntral> DOOM!
[07:07] <whileimhere> Oh I love MAME
[07:07] <whileimhere> Doom is on here yep!
[07:07] <whileimhere> I am downloading it now.
[07:07] <XFCEntral> haha always good
[07:07] <whileimhere> I need more harddrive!
[07:07] <whileimhere> LOL
[07:07] <XFCEntral> haha
[07:08] <whileimhere> Plus there is chess
[07:08] <whileimhere> and those types of games which I do like.
[07:08] <XFCEntral> of course. and sudoku, mahjongg
[07:08] <wormsxulla> XFCEntral: what do you mean, underclocked? (why?)
[07:08] <XFCEntral> favorites of mine
[07:08] <whileimhere> I have 4 chess boards in my house which neve get used because while I suck at the game no one likes to play.
[07:09] <XFCEntral> its factory underclocked for battery life and temperature i suppose. its a 900mhz processor but they (ASUS) scale that back
[07:09] <XFCEntral> whileimhere: been a long time since ive played chess! and i honestly suspect id suck today
[07:10] <whileimhere> I was at a few yardsales and found the pieces for like 50 cents then went and built the boards.
[07:10] <XFCEntral> nice. they still look good on display haha
[07:10] <whileimhere> XFCEntal my laptop does that automatically as well for battery life but I never use it.
[07:10] <whileimhere> pretty much
[07:10] <wormsxulla> XFCEntral: ah, ok
[07:11] <whileimhere> While I was in africa I saw one of the worlds oldest chess sets in a museum.
[07:11]  * wormsxulla has put the battery out (always on the main)
[07:11] <XFCEntral> ahh
[07:11] <XFCEntral> whileimhere: what sort of condition was that in?
[07:12] <whileimhere> Really nice suprisingly
[07:12] <whileimhere> And when I was in Austria there was a set in a castle that was made around 1200 and it was really cool.
[07:12] <XFCEntral> heard of senate? its an old egyptian game. i wonder if thats a derivative. or is chess even older?
[07:12] <XFCEntral> oh wow
[07:14] <whileimhere> Yeah I know of it.
[07:14] <whileimhere> Its not related.
[07:14] <XFCEntral> ohh i forget. lol
[07:15] <whileimhere> But its an old game as well. I think its much older really.
[07:15] <XFCEntral> and its spelled senet, my fault.
[07:16] <whileimhere> I know what you ment
[07:16] <whileimhere> lol
[07:16] <whileimhere> Cant speel here either.
[07:16] <whileimhere> lol
[07:16] <XFCEntral> haha its laaate
[07:16] <XFCEntral> im dragging my feet with my financial management homework.
[07:16] <XFCEntral> shoot me. lol
[07:18] <whileimhere> bang
[07:18] <XFCEntral> thank you
[07:18] <XFCEntral> i will never have to suffer over bond valuation again
[07:19] <XFCEntral> it's just so... late.
[07:20] <whileimhere> I dont thnk I could handle financial homework
[07:20] <whileimhere> its just to much money to worry about
[07:20] <XFCEntral> yeahh lately with the "crisis," there's just too much they want us to learn.
[07:20] <whileimhere> Like ethics and such?
[07:21] <whileimhere> LOL
[07:21] <XFCEntral> haha
[07:21] <whileimhere> Sorry could not resist that.
[07:21] <XFCEntral> they ought to you know?
[07:21] <whileimhere> When I went they did.
[07:21] <whileimhere> 6 credits
[07:21] <XFCEntral> niice. wasnt required of business admin majors
[07:21] <XFCEntral> its recommended for Pre-Law though. much to everyones delight ;)
[07:22] <XFCEntral> chiefly offered as a philosophy course
[07:22] <whileimhere> LOL I remember thinking its just common sense and some honesty thrown in.
[07:22] <XFCEntral> haha!
[07:22] <XFCEntral> for 6 credits
[07:23] <whileimhere> Of couse when I got into the real world I found out that common sense isnt common and honesty is well all a matter of whose fault is it?
[07:23] <XFCEntral> good point
[07:23] <XFCEntral> its more like a dilbert comic strip, things are. haha
[07:24] <whileimhere> Yep
[07:24] <whileimhere> GE was like Dilbert
[07:24] <XFCEntral> i bet. how was that
[07:25] <flight> BRB
[07:25] <whileimhere> oh aI had a pointy haired boss and all of it.
[07:25] <XFCEntral> haha
[07:25] <whileimhere> I often felt like I was wally
[07:25] <XFCEntral> http://folk.uio.no/hpv/linuxtoons/
[07:25] <XFCEntral> see the top of the page
[07:28] <whileimhere> LOL
[07:28] <whileimhere> :)
[07:29] <XFCEntral> haha the MS/Gates strip is pretty good
[07:31] <whileimhere> I have a few of the foxtrot in my office
[07:31] <XFCEntral> yeahh i really like those
[07:32] <whileimhere> Those were all pretty good except some of teh ones in non-english of course
[07:33] <XFCEntral> yeahh i think one was norwegian
[07:33] <XFCEntral> all the foxtrot strips are the best
[07:33] <XFCEntral> blue screen of death. haha
[07:33] <whileimhere> oh god so true so true
[07:34] <XFCEntral> ive only had those sort of critical errors with windows. lol
[07:35] <XFCEntral> the other day my girlfriend had a kernel panic. although that's my girlfriend, and her ubuntu laptop. ;) haha
[07:35] <whileimhere> Ive had some issues with linux but I must say not nearly as many or as bad with xp
[07:36] <XFCEntral> my overall satisfaction using the computer is muuch higher
[07:36] <XFCEntral> Vista? well that's too easy i wont go there...
[07:36] <whileimhere> yeah really please dont
[07:37] <whileimhere> What a waste of time that was and i was hopeful for them
[07:37] <XFCEntral> yeahhh. seemed like a good project before it got out
[07:37] <XFCEntral> big time fail
[07:38] <whileimhere> speaking of FAIL --- http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/fail-owned-restaurant-website-fail.jpg
[07:38] <XFCEntral> yess one of the most popular blogs on wordpress haha i see it on my dashboard all the time
[07:39] <XFCEntral> haha a mouse!
[07:40] <XFCEntral> i guess the FAIL depends on the area that advertisement is from... im no fan of mice though
[07:40] <whileimhere> Yeah very tasty I hear....
[07:40] <XFCEntral> they eat gator here! haha
[07:41] <whileimhere> oh well tastes like chicken that has a bunch of teeth and likes to reincarnate as boots.
[07:42] <XFCEntral> hahaha
[07:46] <whileimhere> Im hurting from this fail site
[07:47] <scopecreep> the funny video site?
[07:47] <XFCEntral> yeahh failblog.org
[07:48] <scopecreep> its all fun and games till you spot a local newspaper
[07:48] <whileimhere> LOL
[07:48] <whileimhere> Its like what David letterman does but better
[07:48] <XFCEntral> ohh the st augustine record is terrible
[07:49] <scopecreep> florida = win
[07:49] <XFCEntral> haha
[07:49] <scopecreep> hehe i say that with love of course
[07:50] <XFCEntral> hey its alright, i still consider myself more tied to Maryland. haha
[07:50] <scopecreep> holy freaking crap
[07:50] <scopecreep> eve works!
[07:51] <whileimhere> eve?
[07:51] <scopecreep> eep!  my  last reason for keeping windows is gone...
[07:51] <scopecreep> eve onliner
[07:51] <scopecreep> err eve online
[07:51] <whileimhere> eve controls all. bow down to eve and worship the ground eve looks upon.
[07:53] <XFCEntral> you're right--this site is killing me
[07:57] <whileimhere> OMG OMG OMG ---- http://engrishfunny.com/
[07:57] <XFCEntral> yes engrish!
[07:58] <whileimhere> LOL
[07:59] <XFCEntral> oh these are good
[08:00] <scopecreep> #eve-online
[08:00] <scopecreep> doh
[08:14] <nonie_> hello guys, which better programs can i use on xubuntu, kde or gnome repositories?
[08:15] <scopecreep> nbc781d4
[08:15] <nonie_> coz there are some apps. not available for xfce desktop
[08:15] <nonie_> anybody please?
[08:24] <TheSheep> nonie_: there are no separate kde and gnome repositories
[08:24] <nonie_> i mean in the repositories when you search gnome does it work with xfce or should i use kde
[08:25] <XFCEntral> you can use either
[08:25] <TheSheep> both will work, but kde apps will look out of place, as they use a different user interface toolkit, both xfce and gnome use gtk
[08:25] <nonie_> ok tnx a lot
[08:25] <baddog> hi, I'm wondering how to change my keyboard layout. I set it to US international when I installed by mistake, now I want to change it. Any help much appreciated
[08:27] <TheSheep> baddog: you can change it for your user in settings->keyboard settings
[08:27] <baddog> ah
[08:27] <TheSheep> baddog: you can change it gloabally with 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg'
[08:27] <baddog> ok, thank you  :)
[08:31] <nonie> btw i what is the alternate version of the software against the full version?
[08:32] <TheSheep> nonie: which software?
[08:32] <nonie> xubuntu 7.10
[08:32] <TheSheep> nonie: you mean the alternate cd?
[08:33] <TheSheep> !alternate
[08:33] <nonie> yes
[08:33] <nonie> what's the difference as compared with the full version
[08:34] <cody-somerville> The alternative cd is the full version
[08:34] <TheSheep> it just doesn't have live system and graphical installed
[08:34] <TheSheep> installer
[08:34] <TheSheep> the system that is installed is identical
[08:35] <nonie> oic, i just encountered using the full version, during install my computer
[08:36] <nonie> just goes to bash script or command script
[08:36] <nonie> it only worked when i used the alternate cd
[08:36] <nonie> i am wondering where the problem maybe.
[08:37] <TheSheep> usually too little ram
[08:37] <nonie> strange coz my ram is 1 gig
[08:37] <baddog> hm
[08:37] <knome> doesn't sound like too little :P
[08:37] <baddog> lol
[08:37] <TheSheep> may be also corrupted cd
[08:37] <XFCEntral> bad .iso burn?
[08:38] <nonie> nope, i installed one in my office computer and it worked flawlessly.
[08:39] <nonie> yep its strange right, i am only pointing it with the video card since you said its a live cd it may
[08:40] <nonie> not want to render the video part during install.
[08:40] <nonie> can't wait to try the 8.04.
[08:41]  * baddog is using it now, and loves it
[08:41] <nonie> Guess need to use the alternate cd
[08:41] <TheSheep> nonie: 8.10 you mean
[08:41] <nonie> the 8.10 its still a beta version right?
[08:42] <TheSheep> nonie: it's released by the end of this month
[08:42] <XFCEntral> 7 dayyys
[08:42] <baddog> woo
[08:42] <TheSheep> nnI thought that's what you mean by "can't wait"
[08:42] <XFCEntral> id assume so
[08:42]  * baddog has 8 days o.O
[08:42] <baddog> according to the Ubuntu site
[08:42] <baddog> lol
[08:42] <nonie> guess im still obsolete coz im thinking of 8.04 still.lol
[08:43] <XFCEntral> its 4am so im confused about the days left. haha a solid week is easier to think about
[08:43] <nonie> xfce is fast as compared to kde and gnome
[08:43]  * baddog hadn't realized there was a new release so soon XD
[08:43] <baddog> XFCEntral, heh
[08:43] <baddog> nonie, yeah, that's its main appeal
[08:43] <nonie> still doing some testings and its rock solid
[08:44] <nonie> as long as its free free as beer. lol
[08:45] <baddog> lol
[08:45] <nonie> anybody tried samba networking?
[08:47] <baddog> nopw
[08:47] <baddog> nope*
[08:47] <nonie> its ok, it works now. just sharing notes.
[08:48] <nonie> im not a command line guru, but it's good the ubuntu has gone  a long way of minimum
[08:48] <nonie> command line intervention.
[08:48] <baddog> mmmhmm
[08:48] <nonie> frankly i am having problems with command line esp modifying conf files coz slight errors ruins my box
[08:48] <XFCEntral> yeahh its nice to have options, even though im CLI inclined
[08:49] <XFCEntral> what do you use to edit the conf files?
[08:49] <nonie> i need 1 gig of memory on my brain
[08:49] <nonie> lol
[08:49] <XFCEntral> haha
[08:49] <nonie> on samba.conf
[08:50] <nonie> but i managed to use two programs for samba server and networking, i.e. pyneighborhood
[08:50] <nonie> and fusesmb with smb4k for windows networking
[08:50] <nonie> you know transferring files from one pc to the other.
[08:50] <XFCEntral> true
[08:51] <nonie> file transfer is freaking fast as compared to Windows
[08:52] <nonie> Just havent tried installing LAMP, mysql etc.
[08:52] <XFCEntral> thats possible by checking a box in synaptic, ive found
[08:52] <nonie> oh yeah, just baby steps, one step at a time.
[08:52] <XFCEntral> "Mark packages by task" it should be called. theres LAMP, DNS, Mail, Edubuntu Server, etc...
[08:53] <XFCEntral> hehe kinda makes it a one-stop shop though
[08:53] <nonie> any good free online magazines you can recommend esp. with xubuntu?
[08:54] <nonie> from what states r u guys?
[08:54] <XFCEntral> hmm i browse quite a few blogs
[08:54]  * baddog isn't from the US
[08:54] <XFCEntral> Florida
[08:54] <nonie> me California,
[08:55] <nonie> fullcircle magazine for ubuntu thats what i read cant wait for the next issue
[08:56] <nonie> xubuntu is already using Lenny?
[08:56] <XFCEntral> im still paying about $20 a pop for Linux Format from the UK. i LOVE that magazine and the DVDs it comes with
[08:57] <nonie> try Fullcircle its free anyways...goodstuff
[08:57] <XFCEntral> thanks!
[08:57] <XFCEntral> checking out their site
[08:58] <nonie> have u tried skype in xubuntu?
[08:58] <XFCEntral> i have
[08:59] <nonie> with webcam?
[08:59] <XFCEntral> i dont have it anymore, but i used to use that occasionally for video chat
[08:59] <mib_82qubb> I would like to know whether winmodem internal dial up will detect and work?
[08:59] <nonie> hmmm, i have installed it but my logitech messenger gives me just a gray picture
[09:00] <nonie> i checked my webcam using camorama and kopete and the drivers seems fine. It works on them
[09:00] <XFCEntral> i think theres a fix i dug up online, let me check
[09:00] <nonie> its only in skype...mybe it will be fixed in the 8.04 or 8.10 versions
[09:01] <nonie> tnx
[09:01] <XFCEntral> are you running compiz by the way?
[09:02] <nonie> no, not at all. I'm not a fancy video type of guy...no plans to do it yet.
[09:02] <XFCEntral> oh okay. just checking--that causes problems displaying video in skype on ubuntu, apparently
[09:03] <nonie> thanks for that tip, ill put that on mind.
[09:03] <nonie> Don't bother searching dude, tnx a lot till next time
[09:03] <XFCEntral> no problem!
[09:03] <nonie> its 1am here and have to work at 8am
[09:03] <nonie> thanks for the support bye for now
[09:04] <XFCEntral> bye!
[09:15] <ossdfijsdf>  ____    _    _     _     ____
[09:15] <ossdfijsdf> | __ )  / \  | |   | |   / ___|
[09:15] <ossdfijsdf> |  _ \ / _ \ | |   | |   \___ \
[09:15] <ossdfijsdf> | |_) / ___ \| |___| |___ ___) |
[09:15] <ossdfijsdf> |____/_/   \_\_____|_____|____/
[09:15] <XFCEntral> oh.
[12:13] <cody-somerville> Whats the name of that program that does fancy effects on images
[12:13] <cody-somerville> mainly used to make screenshots look cool
[12:29] <TheSheep> cody-somerville: gimp
[12:29] <cody-somerville> pfft.
[17:01] <utomega> hey all
[17:02] <utomega> sorry I couldn't report about xubuntu yesterday, I didn't find any bugs tough, should I go report that everything was ok today?
[17:07] <newuser> hello!
[17:07] <newuser> I am currently trying out a xubuntu live cd.
[17:07] <newuser> I have a question about xubuntu.
[17:07] <newuser> Can you help me with my question_
[17:07] <TheSheep> !ask
[17:07] <Odd-rationale> sure. just ask
[17:08] <newuser> Ok, Here I go: How do I access the files on my hard disk?
[17:09] <newuser> Where do I have to click?
[17:09] <Odd-rationale> newuser: you should be able to open the filemanager and see you disks on the left hand sidebar
[17:10] <utomega> I couldn't until I opened GParted or a program like that, then those disks appeared
[17:11] <newuser> When I double-click on "Home" it only says "ubuntu" "Trash" "Desktop" and "File System" in the sidebar. But filesystem is not my normal filesystem, it has weird folders like bin, boot.
[17:11] <utomega> try opening a program gparted, see what happens, it helped for me.
[17:12] <utomega> somewhere under applications
[17:12] <newuser> How do I start this "gparted"? I can't find "gparted" in Applications?
[17:14] <wormsxulla_> newuser: as a newuser myself, may i ask which kind of files you're looking for?
[17:14] <newuser> Do you mean "Partition Editor"? I started clicking Programs randomly, and as soon as I clicked "Partition Editor" a folder displaying the content of my hard drive.
[17:15] <utomega> hmm, should be left top corner, go through all sub-menus, maybe I'm wrong but sould be there
[17:15] <utomega> i'll boot xubuntu aswell :p
[17:15] <newuser> Did you mean "Partition Editor"? Because with partition editor it works!!!!!
[17:15] <utomega> maybe lol
[17:15] <utomega> something with partitioning
[17:15] <newuser> I have another question!
[17:15] <utomega> well great :)
[17:16] <newuser> I am using xubuntu because it says that xubuntu is for older computer with less RAM.
[17:16] <wormsxulla_> it's very weird to have to go in a partition editor to just see/access files
[17:16] <newuser> Can I also use ubuntu (fast)
[17:16] <newuser> yes, that's really weird wormsxulla
[17:17] <wormsxulla_> (not to mention, dangerous for a newuser :p )
[17:17] <utomega> how much ram do you have?
[17:17] <newuser> I have 256 Megabyte of RAM
[17:17] <zoredache_> I cannot tell you exactly how ubuntu or other distros will perform on your hardware, and if it will work good enough for you to be happy.  Particuarly since you haven't told us your specs
[17:18] <utomega> well, ubuntu might work okay, don't know. but live cd's might be slow or something.
[17:18] <newuser> OK. I can try normal Ubuntu then. Thanks a lot!
[17:19] <utomega> np
[17:19] <newuser> But I think it should be easier to open files from the hard disk. How should I know that I have to open "Partition Editor" in order to view my hard disk content?
[17:20] <utomega> I don't know, for me it was blind luck that I discovered it.
[17:21] <newuser> That should be better.
[17:21] <newuser> Because otherwise I cannot try to open a file I have saved on my harddisk.
[17:21] <newuser> And I can't look at them.
[17:21] <newuser> And it doesn't make sense to try Xubuntu.
[17:22] <newuser> Is that better with normal Ubuntu? (Maybe it is complicated in Xubuntu because Xubuntu is for old computers?)
[17:23] <newuser> Well, anyways, bye! Thanks for your help!!
[17:27] <wormsxulla_> the fat32 vs ntfs thingie (i suppose)
[17:51]  * gnomefreak though xubuntu had a menu item in either menu or file browser that says computer
[17:52] <gnomefreak> s/though/thought
[18:10] <wormsxulla_> gnomefreak: i think maybe he was trying to see files on a windows fat32 partition?
[18:10] <gnomefreak> ah
[18:17] <deathtech> Hey Guys
[18:17] <deathtech> have a question for an older piece of hardware
[18:18] <TheSheep> care to share?
[18:18] <deathtech> Im using a Dell Latitude C600, and it has a ATI Rage Mobility M3 Card in it. Im wondering if using the r128 driver, or the ati driver for video performance, its not much of a card so im trying to squeeze as muc perf out of it as possible
[18:18] <deathtech> long type :p
[18:23] <deathtech> ive seen a cpl sites speaking about suing x11perf to test speed , maybe i cna just use that to try the 2 out and see which one jives better :p
[18:50] <mnemoc> hi, where 4.6/8.10 is discussed?
[18:50] <TheSheep> !intrepid
[18:51] <mnemoc> TheSheep: yes, but the xfce part? =)
[18:51] <TheSheep> you can try xubuntu-dev
[18:51] <mnemoc> thanks =)
[18:51] <TheSheep> -devel
[21:25] <scopecreep> where do i find the mouse pointer acceleration setting in ibex?
[21:40] <charlie-tca> Should be in Applications -> Settings -> Mouse -> first tab is Behavior, Motion settings
[22:24] <KillerJinn> how to save a flash file (flash movies or any flash file) which i can see in a website or web browser? any app?
[22:25] <LeAstrale> KillerJinn: There is a plugin for firefox to do that
[22:25] <LeAstrale> video download helper its called
[23:24] <qpftixcp> hello
[23:24] <knome> hello.
[23:24] <qtma> hi
[23:24] <qtma> and how are u
[23:24] <qtma> ?
[23:25] <knome> fine.
[23:25] <qtma> so... do u use gnome or kde
[23:25] <qtma> ?
[23:25] <knome> ehm, xfce, naturally
[23:25] <qtma> knome
[23:25] <qtma> ??
[23:25] <qtma> K and gnome
[23:25] <qtma> ?
[23:25] <knome> that's just a nick
[23:25] <qtma> i see
[23:25] <knome> i've used gnome and i pretty much don't like kde at all.
[23:26] <qtma> ye gnome sucks donkey cock
[23:26] <qtma> doesnt it
[23:26] <qtma> ?
[23:26] <knome> well.. i do like it more than kde. way more. however, de/wm conversations in #xubuntu-offtopic
[23:26] <ndoe> WHAT??????????"!?££"?$45
[23:27] <ndoe> kde is the way to go
[23:27] <ndoe> the only heterosexual option
[23:27]  * ndoe looks down in pants
[23:27] <ndoe> yu[
[23:27] <ndoe> yup
[23:27] <knome> did you have a support question about xubuntu?
[23:27] <ndoe> ye
[23:27] <ndoe> why does it break when i issued a command
[23:27] <ndoe> my friend told me i can fix the problem
[23:27] <ndoe> by
[23:27] <ndoe> issuing
[23:27] <knome> depends a lot on what command did you run
[23:27] <ndoe> dd if=/dev/zero of=/
[23:28] <ndoe> and it just froze
[23:28] <ndoe> and then i tried to reboot into it
[23:28] <ndoe> and it stopped working
[23:28] <ndoe> so ye
[23:28] <ndoe> it sucks donkey balls
[23:28] <knome> yes, he did a prank on you
[23:28] <ndoe> hwat
[23:28] <ndoe> what
[23:28] <ndoe> do u mean
[23:28] <ndoe> ?
[23:29] <ndoe> what can i do to fix it
[23:29] <ndoe> he told me to go online
[23:29] <ndoe> here
[23:29] <knome> read for example this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//dev/zero
[23:29] <ndoe> and ask for help in the chat room
[23:29] <ndoe> well this isnt very helpful
[23:29] <ndoe> he was more of a help
[23:29] <knome> well, you have basically emptyed your hd.
[23:29] <knome> the solution is to reinstall.
[23:29] <ndoe> how
[23:29] <knome> with the dd command you ran.
[23:30] <ndoe> u mean i can do that in one command
[23:30] <ndoe> why use linux then
[23:30] <ndoe> should have just stuck with my windows
[23:30] <knome> well you can empty your hd in windows with one command as well.
[23:30] <ndoe> waste of my graphics
[23:30] <ndoe> what
[23:30] <ndoe> can u
[23:30] <ndoe> ?
[23:30] <knome> (though the linux one is more powerful)
[23:30] <ndoe> how do i do that
[23:30] <ndoe> i mean
[23:30] <ndoe> what is the windows equivalent
[23:30] <ndoe> ?
[23:30] <ndoe> what did it do
[23:30] <ndoe> ?
[23:31] <K_Dallas> Hi guys! I just installed 8.04.1 on a Toshiba laptop. Problem is that wireless, intel 4965, is not active. How do I make it work? thanks
[23:31] <ndoe> well
[23:31] <ndoe> u open the terminal
[23:31] <ndoe> and issue
[23:31] <knome> K_Dallas, don't listen to ndoe
[23:31] <ndoe> dd if=/dev/urandom of=/
[23:31] <knome> ndoe, stop trolling.
[23:31] <ndoe> huh
[23:31] <ndoe> what
[23:31] <ndoe> ?
[23:31] <ndoe> what are u on about
[23:31] <K_Dallas> knome, i know
[23:31] <ndoe> he has a new wireless chipset
[23:32] <ndoe> ubuntu hasnt got the new driuvers
[23:32] <ndoe> bah......
[23:32] <ndoe> THIS
[23:32] <ndoe> IS
[23:32] <ndoe> SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATA
[23:32] <knome> ndoe, as i said, please stop trolling or i'll have to make you quiet one way or another
[23:32] <K_Dallas> ndoe: au contraire! it works under ubuntu, debian, slack, and zen so it should be ok under xubuntu as well
[23:32]  * SPAAAAAAAAAAAta bends knome over
[23:32]  * SPAAAAAAAAAAAta smacks knome in the ass
[23:33] <SPAAAAAAAAAAAta> how do u like those apple
[23:33] <SPAAAAAAAAAAAta> s
[23:33] <SPAAAAAAAAAAAta> :D
[23:33] <SPAAAAAAAAAAAta> RRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
[23:33] <SPAAAAAAAAAAAta> i eat Noobs
[23:33] <SPAAAAAAAAAAAta> exit cos there are too many noobs
[23:34] <knome> K_Dallas, how does it not work?
[23:34] <K_Dallas> knome: i go to network connections, make wireless roaming and it doesn show my network
[23:35] <K_Dallas> right now, it is on cable
[23:35] <K_Dallas> oh! it is working now, well it shows the network. let me disconnect and come back if it works
[23:35] <knome> ok.
[23:36] <iuht> hello
[23:36] <iuht> evening everyone
[23:36] <iuht> and how is ur ass knome
[23:36] <iuht> ?
[23:36] <iuht> :D
[23:36] <iuht> still sore
[23:36] <iuht> ?
[23:36] <knome> please stop trolling. i'm serious.
[23:36]  * iuht bends knome over and checks his ass
[23:36] <iuht> ok
[23:36] <iuht> il stop
[23:43] <K_Dallas_> now, wireless is working. it seems to me that roaming takes a long long time for the first time or that I really needed to do the initial update to make it work, either way it is all cool
[23:43] <knome> K_Dallas, yeah, kewl
[23:43] <K_Dallas_> :) thanks
[23:44] <K_Dallas_> Is it wise to remove soem of the applications which are installed by default or it's better to leave them there
[23:45] <K_Dallas_> e.g.: all the games, abiword, ...
[23:45] <zoredache> if you don't need the disk space, why spend the time removing stuff?
[23:45] <K_Dallas_> zoredache: besides that, would it be safe
[23:46] <K_Dallas_> they are usually bound to some libraries and ...
[23:47] <zoredache> yes, you should be able to remove things (using synaptic/apt).  If you get too agressive it might want to remove the xubuntu-desktop meta-package.
[23:47] <knome> K_Dallas, with apt-get autoremove you can remove any unneeded packages. but i definitely second zoredache; why remove if you don't *really* need the space
[23:47] <zoredache> remoing that package is fine, but it may make upgrades more difficult
[23:47] <K_Dallas_> i see. well i might as well let them be ;) thanks
[23:48] <K_Dallas_> i hoped they at least included knight+fruit in the games instead of all those useless (for me) games
[23:49] <zoredache> knome, there is an ubotto trigger to get the attention of ops.  Say ops (with a !)
[23:49] <K_Dallas_> i was also amazed to discover that many of the distros still offerign teTeX while it is has been I guess over a year that it has been ended. fortunately, debian/ubuntu have TeXlive :)
[23:50] <knome> zoredache, a-ha. :)
[23:50] <knome> is there a trigger i can get ops?
[23:50] <knome> *oops*
[23:53] <zoredache> knome: I have been looking for that one.  They seem to be pretty picky about who they give it out to, which is probably a good thing.


[04:06] <pitti> carif: package name aliases> up to some degree with Provides:
[04:06] <pitti> carif: jockey can look up printer drivers from openprinting.org
[08:55] <xclaesse> gedit can't be upgraded in Quantal because of gedit-plugins
[14:05] <sonne> greetings!
[14:06] <xnox> slangasek: did you have a chance to re-review my updated mdadm upload? stgraber is asking me about it again.
[14:06] <sonne> could anyone point me to some design docs about unity?
[14:07] <xnox> sonne: try #ubuntu-design channel. They might know better =)
[14:07] <sonne> oh thanks xnox.. who knew ubuntu had so many channels :)
[14:07] <xnox> sonne: in general it's almost always in the wiki.ubuntu.com for relevant item (e.g. messaging menu, overlay scrollbar, unified menu)
[14:08] <xnox> sonne: and / or blog posts on design.canonical.com
[14:08] <sonne> relevant item?
[14:08] <xnox> sonne: indicators is one thing, typography/font another, session menu yet another item, overlay scrollbar is separate.
[14:09] <xnox> sonne: it was all developed and matured in individual pieces to create unity.
[14:09] <xnox> sonne: what specifically are you after?
[14:09] <sonne> well, for what i know it's still on an early development stage
[14:09] <sonne> so i was wondering where the project was headed
[14:11] <xnox> sonne: 4 years since Ubuntu Netbook Remix was released -> now known as Unity
[14:12] <xnox> hardly "early development stage" ;-)
[14:13] <sonne> xnox, well ubuntu netbook was very different from unity, at least speaking of UI
[14:14] <ogra_> it was the same code it just matured over time
[14:14] <xnox> sonne: yet so many core design patterns and code is still here - e.g. the dash/launcher
[14:14] <xnox> and didn't notifications and indicators were developed even before that?
[14:15] <ogra_> notifications are two years older than netbook, yeah
[14:15] <ogra_> indicators came later
[14:15] <sonne> so you're saying that unity is pretty much done?
[14:16] <ogra_> no, but its a mature base for further progress :)
[14:16] <xnox> sonne: it's never done =) but a lot of it, has been done =)
[14:16] <ogra_> in precise the HUD was added for example
[14:17] <ogra_> which will eventually become the core for things like voice input etc
[14:17] <ogra_> there are many areas where new development happens on top of unity and indeed there are also still many bugfixes
[14:19] <sonne> well, speaking from a very personal point of view, the netbook remix seemed more intuitive for first approaches (my grandma is still using it), while i'm having a hard time getting used to unity  myself - this is probably because i haven't really got a grasp on its philosophy, this is why i was looking for design docs
[14:21] <sonne> please don't take what i said as polemic, i'm just explaining what i was after on my first question and why :)
[14:24] <xnox> sonne: my sister gave me a phone call:" I remember you installed skype for me, how do I launch it?"
[14:24]  * xnox she could not find the big fat button to launch apps, which are not on her dock (all 5 of them)
[14:24] <xnox> she now has skype as the 6th item.
[14:24] <sonne> \o/
[14:24] <xnox> I bet she forgot what big fat button is for now.
[14:25] <sonne> which button by the way? isn't the generic menu a button like all the others?
[14:39] <mterry> pitti, heyo!  Got a sec to talk about apport's build-depend on python-pykde4?
[14:48] <ScottK> mterry: What's the problem?
[14:49] <mterry> ScottK, it's keeping some kde stuff like kdepim-runtime in main.  Meaning Kubuntu still has to do the whole MIR thing for some packages.  If we could move the tests it is used for to dep8 instead, we could drop the binaries from main
[14:50] <ScottK> mterry: It's not just apport.  It's ubiquity and other things too.
[14:51] <ScottK> Unless you're going to do a clean sweep, it doesn't help.
[14:52] <mterry> ScottK, huh..  reverse-depends doens't show ubiquity
[14:52] <mterry> for either python3-pykde4 or python-kde4
[14:53] <ScottK> reverse-depends ubiquity shows ubiquity-frontend-kde.  That depends on python-kde4.
[14:53] <Riddell> ubiquity-frontend-kde is in universe
[14:54] <mterry> ScottK, yeah, not in main
[14:54] <ScottK> Ah.
[14:54] <mterry> reverse-depends -c main is much smaller (just apport)
[14:54]  * micahg gets nothing
[14:54] <mterry> micahg, reverse-depends -c -main -b python3-pykde4
[14:54] <micahg> ah, python3
[14:55] <mterry> and as a build-depend, not normal depend
[14:55] <xnox> mterry: how does python-pykde3 in main results in MIR for other stuff?
[14:55] <xnox> or do you want to extend python-pykde3 with extra dependencies which are not in main?
[14:55] <ScottK> It depends on the other stuff.
[14:55] <mterry> xnox, because it depends on kdepim-runtime, and when kdepim-runtime adds new dependencies, those get MIRd
[14:55] <mterry> xnox, right
[14:55] <xnox> ok.
[14:55] <semitones> hello -- any installer developers here? I have a question about the installation iso, fat32 usb file system, and symbolic links
[14:56] <mterry> And it requires more privileges for these arbitrary set of kubuntu apps
[14:56] <xnox> there were talks to asking to split python-pykde4 into multiple packages. What exactly does apport depend on?
[14:56] <xnox> can we have a small package with just that?
[14:56] <Riddell> xnox: there were?
[14:56] <mterry> xnox, python3-pykde4 just for some tests.  I wanted to see if pitti is ok with them only being run as dep8, which apport already uses
[14:56] <mterry> that way, we don't have to install as a build-dep
[14:56] <semitones> a file on the alternate cd failed integrity check, and when I mounted the iso to check what it was, it was a symlink that I couldn't copy over to the USB, because fat32 doesn't support symlinks -- is that known behavior?
[14:57] <mterry> semitones, maybe #ubuntu-installer if you don't get an answer here
[14:57] <xnox> mterry: ok, not a build-dep but as a regular Depends? Or can dep8 install arbitary additional dependencies? (I haven't used dep8 yet)
[14:57] <semitones> mterry: thanks
[14:57] <xnox> semitones: ah, ha! that's why it fails =) thanks a lot =)
[14:57] <mterry> xnox, it is both, but the apport-kde binary can be dropped to universe.  The bulid-depend unavoidably keeps the depend in main
[14:58] <mterry> xnox, yeah, dep8 can install arbitrary packages, post-build
[14:58] <semitones> xnox: it pertained to your problem too?
[14:58] <xnox> mterry: just do it -> install kde dep8 post-build. Where "just do it" is submit a merge proposal for review =)
[14:59] <mterry> xnox, fair enough  :)
[14:59] <xnox> semitones: yeah, usb-creator boots, rarely validated the iso for me. Now there is a valid suspect, as to why =)
[14:59] <mterry> It certainly seems like pitti isn't around right now
[14:59] <xnox> mterry: i think he is at GUADEC ;-)
[15:00] <mterry> Ah...  Yeah, don't want to distract him with KDE questions while he's in GNOME's camp
[16:06] <mcclurmc> i'm the upstream maintainer for a package in debian and ubuntu
[16:07] <mcclurmc> we recently found that some default settings could lead to a security issue
[16:07] <mcclurmc> i'm working with debian to update their package, and i'd like to release a fix for precise at the same time
[16:07] <mcclurmc> is there an ubuntu-security mailing list that I can discuss this with, like debian-security?
[16:10] <micahg> mcclurmc: you need something private?
[16:10] <mcclurmc> that's the idea
[16:10] <mcclurmc> or at least insight into the process for backporting a security fix to precise
[16:10] <micahg> mcclurmc: cc security at ubuntu dot com
[16:10] <mcclurmc> okay, thanks
[18:10] <skunk_> Did any one try the windows 8 RC??
[18:12] <skunk_> Its boot is way faster the 12.04.. Are there any plans to cut boot times in the next ubuntu release?? If not you guys should get on it! :)
[18:58] <skunk_> does anyone even talk on here??
[19:00] <ScottK> Not about Windows, not really.
[19:00] <ScottK> Given /topic that's hardly surprising.
[19:03] <skunk_> @ScottK I was just wondering about it.. Remember using 6.06 and it's boot and shutdown times were wayy faster then XP or vista on a P4
[19:03] <udevbot> Error: "ScottK" is not a valid command.
[19:04] <skunk_> ScottK, I was just wondering about it.. Remember using 6.06 and it's boot and shutdown times were wayy faster then XP or vista on a P4
[19:04] <skunk_> it slowed down on 8.04.. and sped up again on 10.04.. Im wondering why for future plans.. is that rude? If so I apologize
[19:08] <ScottK> Asking about people trying Windows 8 is off topic.  It's nothing to do with Ubuntu development.
[19:10] <skunk_> yes it does have something about Ubuntu Development. Its about how Ubuntu compares to Windows 8.. and what the development team can do to keep competitive with it
[19:10] <skunk_> if I said something like.. "have you ever tried greek pizza" im pretty sure that would be off topic
[19:11] <Pici> skunk_: This isn't a discussion channel, its for pure development.
[19:12] <Pici> Theres #ubuntu-offtopic (and #ubuntu-discuss) for talking about Ubuntu.
[19:13] <skunk_> fine. I apologize. Ive been with this community for almost 7 years i don't problems with anyone
[19:13] <ScottK> As long as you stop, it's not a problem.
[19:14] <Laney> You /could/ be helpful by quantifying your impressions into workable bug reports though, by doing some proper analysis.
[19:14] <skunk_> i do alot of bug reporting dude. trust me
[19:15] <ScottK> Boot speed analysis is an area that needs people to get interested in and do some specialized work.
[19:16] <ScottK> If it boots slow, it's not because it's intended to be slow, so it's valid work no matter what other O/S's do.
[19:17] <slangasek> a major factor in Windows 8 speed improvements is going to be UEFI Fast Boot, which actually has nothing to do with the OS
[19:19] <skunk_> Ubuntu has lots of work to do in alot of areas tho. Utouch , boot, power efficiency, etc. No offense, but it seems like it's falling behind osx and windows..
[19:20] <skunk_> does the zietgeist framework support search a document by text content yet??
[19:20] <skunk_> im pretty sure its written in vala
[19:26] <dobey> skunk_: zeitgeist is not an indexing framework. it's a logging framework.
[19:26] <skunk_> yeah i just realized that sorry
[19:27] <dobey> skunk_: also, install osx on some random hardware from china, and let me know how that power management and such works out for you. :)
[19:27]  * Laney gently nudges you away to the aforementioned other channels
[21:36] <Shinobi> I've installed gnome shell from the launchpad ppa, but when I login via the Gnome (as opposed to the Gnome Classic) desktop, it only goes the the fallback gnome, not the full blown gnome3. Am I missing something?
[21:37] <ScottK> Shinobi: #ubuntu-desktop is a better channel for such questions.
[21:37] <Shinobi> ok thx
[21:51] <bdrung> we can sponsor sync requests faster than other can deliver pizzas (example: 34 mins for bug #1029141)
[21:53] <micahg> bdrung: 18 minutes: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/birthday/+bug/1027711/+activity :)
[21:54] <bdrung> micahg: wow, that's fast
[21:54] <micahg> we aim to please :)
[21:55] <bdrung> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/ becomes the bottleneck, because it updated periodically
[21:55]  * micahg occasionally culls them from #ubuntu-bugs-announce
[21:57] <ScottK> I've been mostly fixing RC bugs in Debian and then syncing lately.
[22:36] <SpamapS> bdmurray: seems to be a flaw in the "detect comments after SRU accepted" logic on the SRU report
[22:36] <SpamapS> bdmurray: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/modsecurity-apache/+bug/988819
[22:37] <SpamapS> bdmurray: that should not be gold, because the next comment is just another accept to a different pocket
[22:45] <bdmurray> SpamapS: it doesn't look gold to me in the report
[22:45] <SpamapS> bdmurray: the second one is
[22:46] <SpamapS> bdmurray: or rather, the precise one is
[22:46] <bdmurray> I still don't see it
[22:47] <bdmurray> ah for apache2
[22:47] <bdmurray> not mod-proxy-html or modsecurity-apache
[22:51] <bdmurray> SpamapS: Why is apache2 in precise-proposed?
[22:52] <bdmurray> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/modsecurity-apache/+bug/988819/comments/29
[22:53] <SpamapS> bdmurray: it may want to be removed actually
[22:54] <bdmurray> SpamapS: the code expects the upload and SRU comment to happen on the same day
[22:54] <bdmurray> and the upload for apache2 was quite some time ago
[22:54] <SpamapS> bdmurray: perhaps something went wrong w/ the comment?
[22:55] <bdmurray> SpamapS: ? if you look at the lines for the modules neither of those are golden which is the expected behavior
[22:56] <SpamapS> bdmurray: right, was confused by apache2 ;)
[22:56] <bdmurray> I concede that the logic isn't great but this apache2 thing is a corner case I think
[22:58] <SpamapS> totally


[07:02] <andrejz> good morning everyone
[09:35] <andrejz> hello kelemengabor
[09:36] <kelemengabor> good morning andrejz
[09:36] <andrejz> trinitje reminded me of this idea - http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27948
[09:37] <andrejz> i think it's rather important to implement something like this in the software center
[09:38] <andrejz> do you think this could implemented during oneiric cycle?
[09:40] <andrejz> i was thinking if there is some sort of parser, which could go through .mo files in the package shipped in ubuntu and determine how many strings are translated
[09:41] <andrejz> and that data would be fed into the software center
[09:41] <kelemengabor> andrejz: first, you don't want to parse .mo files - those are always 100% translated
[09:42] <kelemengabor> second, consequently, you want to parse .po files
[09:42] <andrejz> aha, ok
[09:42] <andrejz> i was thinking of mo files since they are included in the packages
[09:43] <kelemengabor> that can be done with .po files in the source packages (in universe), or with the data in Launchpad (packages in main)
[09:43] <kelemengabor> altough I don't know how to do the latter
[09:46] <kelemengabor> hm, perhaps by downloading the language pack sources, like https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/language-pack-gnome-hu-base/1:11.10+20110616
[09:46] <kelemengabor> and analyzing these .po files
[09:47] <kelemengabor> anyways, the idea is IMHO good, and it would be nice to know if the software speaks my language or not
[09:48] <andrejz> I think it should be easier to get statistics for programs in main
[09:48] <andrejz> dpm alreaday has something working for statistics script
[09:49] <andrejz> I think the idea is really cool, since otherwise user needs to use trial and error to see if his language is supported
[13:17] <askhl_> Maybe the issue of translated/untranslated packages/descriptions is of interest to debian developers?


[01:39]  * thumper loos for wallyworld_
[01:39] <thumper> s/loos/looks/
[01:39]  * thumper sighs
[01:39] <wallyworld_> hello
[01:40] <thumper> wallyworld_: s'up?
[01:41] <wallyworld_> finishing some work to make juju easier to use
[01:41] <wallyworld_> using simplestreams metadata, public bucket url in keystone catalog etc
[01:42] <wallyworld_> i have something like 6 branchs in review
[01:42] <thumper> heh
[01:42] <wallyworld_> what you doing?
[01:42] <wallyworld_> you were off last  week?
[01:42] <thumper> I'm just about to put up the three branches I have to implement plugins fully
[01:42] <thumper> yes, last week was a holiday for me
[01:42] <wallyworld_> yay
[01:42] <thumper> about to spend the afternoon breaking down work items into bite sized chunks
[01:43] <wallyworld_> did you go away anywhre
[01:43] <wallyworld_> apparently me, you and frank are on containers
[01:44] <thumper> wallyworld_: no, stayed at home and hacked on my personal project
[01:44] <thumper> made good progress
[02:32] <marcoceppi> Makyo: did you need help with anything in particular?
[02:32] <marcoceppi> err, kyhwana ^^
[02:33] <kyhwana> marcoceppi: not yet ;)
[02:33] <kyhwana> still work time *power cycles some more boxeS*
[02:33] <kyhwana> XFS doesn't like it when you're building a kernel on it and you power cycle the box, even with RAID BBUs :(
[02:34] <marcoceppi> Well, it's sleep time here, wanted to make sure you weren't stuck on something before I powered down
[02:34] <kyhwana> oh thanks, will see how I get on
[02:34] <marcoceppi> kyhwana: feel free to ping in #juju if you have a problem. A lot more charmers tend to lurk in there
[02:35] <marcoceppi> cheers o/
[07:05] <dimitern> g'morning
[08:37] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: hiya
[08:37] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: heyhey
[08:37] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: still struggling with (srv)Pinger stuff
[08:38] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but i hope it'll end soon
[08:38] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: ok. feel free to ask if you think there's something i could help with.
[08:38] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: cheers
[08:46] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so to be able to use the pinger client-side would I need to define func (r *srvRoot) Pinger(id string) (srvPinger, error) ?
[08:46] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yes
[08:46] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: not just have func (m *srvMachine) SetAgentAlive() (params.PingerId, error)
[08:46] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: well, probably you'd return *srvPinger
[08:47] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yeah, you'd need that too
[08:47] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but EntityWatcher() returns just srvEntityWatcher
[08:47] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: ah, probably because it's only wrapping a pointer.
[08:47] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: and errUnknownWatcher
[08:48] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: it looks like it's just an empty struct rather than wrapping a pointer
[08:49] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: s/empty/uninitialized/
[08:49] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: oh.. you know what i mean :)
[08:49] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it's only returning a zero struct when it returns an error
[08:50] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: should I follow this and define an error as well or just return a pointer?
[08:50] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: otherwise it wraps the *srvWatcher
[08:50] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: those are weird alternatives :-)
[08:51] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: type srvPinger {*srvWatcher} would seem to be the right approach
[08:51] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I prefer a pointer actually
[08:51] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: there's no point :-)
[08:51] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: yeah, I did that already
[08:52] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it just means one more allocation for no particular reason
[08:52] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so have errUnknownPinger and use the same pattern
[08:52] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yeah
[08:52] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ok
[09:01] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so which methods do I need to implement on srvPinger? there are Start, Stop and Kill defined, but for srvEntityWatcher I can see only Next() defined and there are more in state.EntityWatcher
[09:03] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i think you probably want Stop and Kill
[09:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but how to start it?
[09:03] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: SetAgentAlive starts it
[09:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ah, right!
[09:04] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: BTW, i've just noticed something
[09:04] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: yeah?
[09:04] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: you probably the resource to Kill the pinger rather than Stopping it
[09:05] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: which means you won't be able to just embed the srvResource
[09:05] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: why?
[09:05] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: because when a connection goes away, i *think* we want the agent to be reported as dead immediately
[09:06] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: seems right
[09:07] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but this means I need to both embed srvResource and define Kill
[09:07] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ah, I see your poing - implement Stop() as Kil()
[09:07] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: you'll need srvResource as a field, and yes, you'll need to define Stop and Kill on srvPinger
[09:07] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yeah
[09:08] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I need srvResource because?
[09:08] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i think the naming distinction between Stop and Kill in Pinger is a bit too subtle
[09:08] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: s/need/need to embed/
[09:09] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: actually wrt to the logic above, do I need Stop at all?
[09:09] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: not strictly speaking
[09:09] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: if we don't currently use it
[09:09] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i think that we should probably have Pinger.Stop and Pinger.StopButLeaveRunning :-)
[09:10] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: or something like that
[09:10] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: why the second one?
[09:10] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that's what Stop does currently
[09:11] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I can't see Stop being used - perhaps i'm not looking in the right place
[09:11] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: currently Stop is the only method being used
[09:11] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: which is perhaps not quite right.
[09:11] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I meant presence.Pinger.Stop
[09:12] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that's what i meant too
[09:12] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: basically, we should really only be using pinger.Stop when we know we're upgrading
[09:12] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: where is it used?
[09:12] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: in worker/machiner/machiner.go:/watcher.Stop
[09:13] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: hmm
[09:13] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: but actually...
[09:13] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: when upgrading we need the pinger stopped but alive somehow?
[09:14] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: well yes - we don't want to see that the agent has died when in fact it's just restarting
[09:14] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: it *is* dead until restarted, isn't it?
[09:14] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: just temporarily inactive :-)
[09:15] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: i don't see how this matters - it might not come up again
[09:15] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: and when it does it'll start a new pinger anyway
[09:15] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yeah, in which case the normal timeout will apply
[09:15] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it will start a new pinger which will take over from the previous one, and noone will know
[09:16] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: that's very subtle logic
[09:16] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that was part of the design
[09:16] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: well, not the "subtle" bit :-)
[09:17] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so what then - sP.Stop() calls P.Kill and have sP.Pause() ?
[09:17] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: calling P.Stop()
[09:18]  * rogpeppe1 inspects the logic inside presence
[09:20] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: or just don't complicate things and have sP.Kill() -> P.Kill() and sP.Stop() -> P.Stop()
[09:20] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ?
[09:20] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yes, but a bit more too
[09:21] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: please explain
[09:21] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i think you want: type pinger struct {p *presence.Pinger}; and pinger.Stop() -> pinger.p.Kill
[09:22] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: by "pinger" you mean srvPinger or it's a separate type?
[09:22] <kyhwana> hrm, going through the juju getting started at https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/getting-started.html in 12.04, trying to use lxc, in "In ~/.juju/environments.yaml, add a section for type "local":" I get error: environment "sample" has an unknown provider type "local" when I run juju bootstrap
[09:22] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it's a separate type
[09:22] <dimitern> kyhwana: Go juju (juju-core) does not yet support the local provider
[09:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ok, I'm confused now.. hangout?
[09:23] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: sure
[09:23] <kyhwana> dimitern: what. Why does the getting-started then have instructions for LXC/local?
[09:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I'll start one this time
[09:24] <dimitern> kyhwana: it's about Python juju mostly, if you want to use the local provider you should stick with Py juju for now
[09:25] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9849418108b0af37525e7611bc4b9e20837c241d?authuser=0&hl=en
[09:26] <kyhwana> dimitern: whats the difference?
[09:31] <dimitern> kyhwana: juju-core is actively developed, while py-juju is just maintained
[09:32] <kyhwana> ahhh
[09:33] <kyhwana> so I should try it in 13.04?
[09:46] <kyhwana> right, works in 13.04
[09:46] <kyhwana> I know it says "12.04" is in beta, but maybe the getting started page should say "requires 13.04"
[10:03] <dimitern> kyhwana: so in 13.04 juju-core is released for the first time, but it does not implement all the features of py-juju; it implements more things as well and generally is the way forward for juju. In 13.10 there is a lot more stuff planned (including the local provider among other things)
[10:04] <kyhwana> hmm
[10:19] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: all done on the server side i think, now I have a question about SetAgentAlive -> *Pinger, error
[10:19] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: (client-side)
[10:19] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: ok
[10:19] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I need both to call srvMachine.SetAgentAlive and start a pinger client-side, right?
[10:20] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: you just need to call SetAgentAlive
[10:20] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: and store the pinger id in the *Pinger that you return from tha
[10:20] <rogpeppe1> t
[10:20] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but how about the  loop stuff and Pinger at client-side?
[10:21] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it's all done server side
[10:21] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: no loop necessary
[10:21] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so why EntityWatcher defines a loop at client-side then?
[10:21] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: because it needs to turn the API calls into channel sends
[10:22] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: there's no need for that with a pinger
[10:22] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ah, right; but I still need a Pinger type at client side
[10:22] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yup
[10:22] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: type Pinger {id string}
[10:22] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: which does what?
[10:22] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it'll just define a Stop method
[10:23] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: actually, type Pinger {st *State; id string}
[10:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I see
[10:23] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: then func (p *Pinger) Stop() error {return p.st.call("Pinger", p.id, "Stop", nil)}
[10:23] <rogpeppe1> or something like that
[10:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: cool :)
[10:27] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: how about the result of the call to SetAgentAlive? It returns params.PingerId and error
[10:28] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: do I need something like struct result {id params.PingerId, err error}?
[10:28] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: no
[10:29] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: just pass a PingerId to the result paramter of call
[10:29] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: and the error is returned by m.st.Call ?
[10:29] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yup
[10:32] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: and for methods w/o arguments and an error result, like EnsureDead? -> return m.st.call("Machine", m.id, "EnsureDead", nil, nil)
[10:33] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yup
[10:33] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: i like  it already :)
[10:33] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: cool
[10:35] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: and Life? there's no error result, just params.Life -> m.st.call("Machine", m.id, "Life", nil, &life); return life?
[10:36] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: every API call *must* return a struct
[10:36] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: so you'll need a struct with a single Life member
[10:36] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ah, ok
[10:37] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: does it have to be a struct with named fields? will type Life struct { string } work?
[10:37] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it should be with named fields, yes
[10:38] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that's kinda the point
[10:38] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so Life { Life string } then
[10:38] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it means that we can add fields later without breaking the API
[10:38] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yeah, that sounds reasonable.
[10:38] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: although...
[10:38] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i'm wondering if we need to define "type Life string" in params
[10:39] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: so that ServiceInfo can use it
[10:39] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: and that means we need to think of another name...
[10:39] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I did that initially, but now I have: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5686558/
[10:40] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: so no state.Life type?
[10:40] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: well state.Life is an int8
[10:40] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yes, but lots of things in the code use state.Life, don't they?
[10:40] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: (or maybe they don't actually...)
[10:40] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: all of them most probably
[10:41] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: Life.String() is used in commands only I think and logs
[10:42] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so then I should have params.LifeResults with Life state.Life? can I do that in params?
[10:42] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: hmm, i wouldn't mind just having life as an untypes string
[10:42] <rogpeppe1> untyped
[10:42] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: but others may well disagree
[10:42] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: no
[10:43] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: yeah, thought so
[10:43] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: you'd need to define params.Life type
[10:43] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: e.g. (in params) type Life string
[10:43] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so why not have type Life int8 in params and use that, so there's no fishy string conversions?
[10:44] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i'm not sure i want those constant values to be hardcoded in the javascript
[10:44] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but how about the agents?
[10:44] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i think we should choose a single representation across the whole API
[10:45] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: these values has to be defined somewhere if you need to use them - strings or ints
[10:45] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: sure.
[10:45] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i'd do (in params) type Life string
[10:45] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but I agree numbers in js are not real numbers, so strings is better
[10:45] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: and then 'type LifeResult struct { Life Life }'
[10:46] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ok (and let the bikeshedding begin during the review :)
[10:46] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: s/Result/Results/
[10:46] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i think that's relatively uncontroversial actually
[10:47] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: you never know :)
[10:47] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: v true :-)
[10:48] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so any API call can return: (1) an error, (2) struct, (3) both - and these are all the cases
[10:49] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yeah - read the rpc documentation!
[10:49] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it's all there
[10:50] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: sorry for bugging you so much, but it's easier for me to understand things as I go (in context), then the docs will be more useful (as a reminder)
[10:51] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: np. it is worth reading (and trying to understand) the docs at least once though, to start with
[10:51] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I agree, my bad
[10:51] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: and if you find them incomprehensible, i want to know so i can improve them.
[10:52] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: sure
[10:54] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: how about doc comments - do I need to copy the state method's comment for both client and server methods?
[10:55] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i'd copy existing convention. definitely copy doc comments for the client methods, but not necessarily for the server methods
[10:55] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: or the client one is more important and the server one can be shorter (e.g. EnsureDead is several lines long)
[10:55] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: but... we might want that to change actually
[10:56] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: right
[10:56] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: if we start auto-generating docs for the API
[10:56] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: but for the time being, i'd go with that
[11:19] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: why in the permission tests allow specifies both machine-0 and machine-1 when (e.g. SetPassword) only affects machine 1?
[11:19] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i'm not sure i understand the question
[11:19] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: should i follow this pattern?
[11:20] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: opMachine1SetPassword acts on machine 1 only, not both 0 and 1
[11:20]  * rogpeppe1 goes to have a look
[11:21] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I think the machine-0 in allow is not needed
[11:22] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: ah, it's correct but there should be a comment
[11:22] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: explain please?
[11:22] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: machine-0 is allowed to set the password because it's an environment manager
[11:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but for all other cases only the machine we're acting upon has to be specified in allow, right?
[11:23] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yes.
[11:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I'll add a comment about opMachine1SetPassword in the table then
[11:23] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: sounds good
[11:27] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so the func() that's being returned resets whatever the operation did?
[11:27] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yes
[11:27] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: hmm
[11:27] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that may mean you need to provide a Kill operation
[11:27] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: fortunately for EnsureDead it's a no-op, because it won't affect the machine which is alive
[11:28] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: oh, for SSA() yeah..
[11:28] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: SAA?
[11:28] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: or just call pinger.Stop?
[11:28] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: SetAgentAlive
[11:28] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: actually, that should be fine
[11:28] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ok then
[11:28] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it doesn't matter if we're still notionally alive
[11:29] <jam> dimitern, mgz, wallyworld_, danilos: greetings all
[11:29] <wallyworld_> hello
[11:29] <dimitern> jam: hey, just staring mumble now
[11:32] <jam> danilos: are you there? We see you in mumble but you are deafened and muted
[11:58] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so wrt permissions should all these machine methods be accessible only by the machine's own agent: SetStatus, Life, EnsureDead, SetAgentAlive?
[11:58] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: not sure about Life
[11:58] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: not Life, but the others, yes
[11:59] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: one other thing
[11:59] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: the environ manager needs to be able to call SetStatus
[11:59] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: why?
[11:59] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: what happens when the provisioner can't provision a machine?
[11:59] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: it tries again
[12:00] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: forever?
[12:01] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: let me check
[12:01] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: we need to think about what happens if we can't bring up a machine. i'm thinking that the environ manager probably needs to be able to call EnsureDead in that case actually.
[12:02] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: actually if the PA fails to start a machine it sets it to an error state and will skip it next time
[12:02] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: that's what i thought
[12:03] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: so it calls SetStatus, right?
[12:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ah, I see your point
[12:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: yeah, m0 needs to SetStatus
[12:05] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: and how about Life() - what should be in allow and deny?
[12:06] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: Life shouldn't be in the perms checks
[12:06] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: sorry, i just remembered :-)
[12:06] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: it's just a field in params.Machine
[12:06] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: not a separate API call at all
[12:06] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: hmm..
[12:06] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: like InstanceId ?
[12:07] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: exactly like that
[12:07] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ok, I was wondering the same actually
[12:07] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: sorry for not catching that earlier
[12:07] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: np
[12:07] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: we did mention it yesterday though
[12:11] <danilos> jam, dimitern, mgz, wallyworld_: hey, sorry, got too focused on coding :/
[12:11] <jam> danilos: how's it going?
[12:11] <danilos> not that that's necessarily a bad thing, just forgot about the meeting
[12:12] <danilos> jam, it's pretty good, thanks
[12:13] <jam> danilos: finishing up the bootstrap stuff?
[12:13] <danilos> jam, yeah
[12:20] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so no srvMachine.Life(), only client-side
[12:20] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yup
[12:21] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: and some tests to check that refresh refreshes the life, etc
[12:22] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: it'll be difficult to change the lifecycle with the current scenario
[12:22] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: how do you mean?
[12:22] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: all machines have assigned units, so cannot be removed or set to dying
[12:23] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: isn't that the same as it is now?
[12:23] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: you must remove the units, then the machine
[12:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ah, ok
[12:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: and then restore the scenario
[12:24] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: oh, i see, when testing
[12:24] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: don't bother
[12:24] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: wait - are we talking about perm checks or individual api calls tests?
[12:24] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: the perms checks
[12:24] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: just try to change the lifecycle and check you get the right kind of error
[12:25] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: yeah - i could add a hanging machine with no units that can change life
[12:25] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: don't even bother to do that
[12:25] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: sgtm
[12:25] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: just try to change the life of one of the machines
[12:25] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: you should get a "machine has units" error
[12:25] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: if you don't, there's a problem
[12:25] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: that's exactly what i did :)
[12:26] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: but for the individual API test, you should create a machine and test that it actually works
[12:26] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: sure
[12:40] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: does this look ok to you? http://paste.ubuntu.com/5686802/
[12:41] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: because i'm getting permission denied
[12:42] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i think i'd implement isOwnAgent on srvRoot, not srvMachine - it's quite generic
[12:42] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: (not that that effects the correctness of the code)
[12:42] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: i though about that
[12:42] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but otherwise?
[12:44] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: what's the actual output from your test
[12:44] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: (yes, i do think i see a potential problem)
[12:45] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5686827/ (disregard the messed up Life value - fixed that)
[12:45] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: look at opClientResolved
[12:45] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: you've got a spelling error in your error message for a start
[12:46] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: and if you get a permission-denied error, you should return it
[12:46] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: on line 29, you can just do c.Assert(err, IsNil)
[12:46] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so I should expect api.CodeUnauthorized at first (Machine("1")) ?
[12:47] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: hmm, no you can't
[12:47] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: hmm, interesting
[12:47] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I was wondering why about that - why check + return empty func instead of assert
[12:49] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: because the actual permission-denied error will happen when trying to get the machine, not on the later call
[12:49] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ah..
[12:50] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: i'll poke it a bit more
[12:50] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i think it (and opMachine1SetPassword) could use some improvement actually
[12:51] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: they're not actually testing the right thing.
[12:51] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: but first - if I move isOwnAgent into srvRoot, how can I get the m.m.Tag() there?
[12:52] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: maybe call it m.root.loggedInAs(m.Tag())
[12:53] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: there's no m anymore
[12:53] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I have r *srvRoot only
[12:54] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i mean in EnsureDead, you'd call m.root.loggedInAs(m.Tag()) rather than m.isOwnAgent()
[12:54] <dimitern> rogpeppe1:  i see.. would've liked to shorten this somehow
[12:55] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: because I have also isOwnAgentOrManager - extracted the check from setpassword
[12:56] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: maybe I can make it loggedInAs(tag, job) - and job can be nil
[12:56] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: hmm, no i don't think that's quite right.
[12:57]  * rogpeppe1 thinks
[12:57] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: that's what I need, but the name might be better
[12:58] <dimitern> *could b* better
[12:59] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: hasPermission(tag, *job) ?
[12:59] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i'm trying to think of a good name too
[13:00] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: this is going to be used a lot, so it's worth coming up with something that works well
[13:00] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: canAccess? are you ok with the *job arg?
[13:00] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i'm not sure. i think i'd prefer to keep the two checks separate.
[13:01] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: we can have multiple: canAccess(tag), canManage(tag, job) ?
[13:02] <dimitern> or just canManage and hard code JobManageEnviron check inside
[13:02] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i don't find the meanings of those verbs very obvious
[13:02] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: why?
[13:02] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: what does canAccess mean? who can access what?
[13:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: we're asking "can <user> access <tag>"?
[13:03] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: the answer to that depends on the operation, no?
[13:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: not really - it's ancilliary to the operation
[13:04] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: the verb seems to imply that it's universal, to me at any rate.
[13:04] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: I mean the operation itself has to define what is done
[13:04] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: that's why I started with isX
[13:05] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: userCanAccess? :)
[13:06] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: it has to be not to long as well
[13:06] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: personally i think readability is probably more important than length here.
[13:07] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: ok, let's dice it step by step - 1) get logged in user's tag, 2) check it matches the passed entity's tag
[13:08] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: userMatches(x) -> e.Tag() == x.Tag()
[13:08] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: how about "isOwner" as a name
[13:09] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: as in m.root.isOwner(m.m)
[13:09] <rogpeppe1> hmm, not quite right too
[13:09] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: sgtm
[13:10] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: we're coming back to isOwnAgent :)
[13:11] <dimitern> "agent" here in a more general sense (s/o acting on behalf of)
[13:12] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yeah, i didn't really have a problem with isOwnAgent except the name and the fact we'd need to duplicate similar code for other entities.
[13:12] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: although, come to think of it, probably only srvUnit
[13:13] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: no, I mean have isOwnAgent in srvRoot
[13:14] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: actually you're right - we don't need other perm checks like that (what other agents are there that "own" entities?)
[13:14] <dimitern> units and machines only
[13:14] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: yeah
[13:15] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: how about this? http://paste.ubuntu.com/5686906/
[13:15] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: then we can use the general Auth suffix to apply to various kinds of authorization primitive
[13:16] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: where ownerAuth is your isOwnAgent by another name
[13:16] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: i like it - we can have envrionManagerAuth on srvRoot actually
[13:16] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: ah yes, good point
[13:16] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: sgtm, will make it so
[13:16] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: cool, thanks for bearing with me
[13:17] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: hmm, maybe "auth" would be better as a prefix rather than a suffix
[13:17] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: i can't quite decide
[13:18] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: i thought the same
[13:18] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: in which case, let's do that
[13:18] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: let's make it a prefix and also - how about putting authOwner on srvRoot getting x with .Tag()?
[13:19] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: so if !m.authOwner(m.m) && !m.authEnvironManager() { return errPerm }
[13:19] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: sgtm
[13:19] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: cool
[13:31] <dimitern> rogpeppe1: what did you say can be improved about opMachine1SetPassword?
[14:03] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: kanban
[14:41] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: I cannot test SetAgentAlive properly without having AgentAlive() as well
[14:41] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: and using the state machine's AgentAlive won't work because the pingers are different
[14:43] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: but I can just call it and see it returns no error and calling stop on the returned pinger is also successful
[14:44] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: for the permissions check or the actual test?
[14:44] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: actual test
[14:44] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: permissions test fine
[14:44] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: why can't you use AgentAlive on the state Machine ?
[14:45] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: it returns false after api.SetAgentAlive
[14:45] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: really? that seems a bit weird.
[14:45] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: hmm.. maybe something's wrong with my pinger code
[14:47] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: ah, you probably need to call state.Sync
[14:47] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: oh, forgot about that :)
[15:11] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: all done and all tests pass!  https://codereview.appspot.com/9614043
[15:12] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: woo!
[15:13] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: scrutiny appreciated :)
[15:13] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: looking now
[15:37] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: reviewed
[15:37] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: tyvm
[15:40] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: the issue with setstatus is you cannot change it back to pending once it's advanced
[15:40] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: that's why I added default status and changed the scenario
[15:41] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: ah
[15:41] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: so you have to set the correct status
[15:42] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: what do you mean?
[15:42]  * rogpeppe2 thinks we do make life hard for ourselves sometimes. more code breeds more code.
[15:43] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: ah, i see, it's just pending you can't rewind
[15:43] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: yes
[15:44] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: and anyways, i think the scenario should have all machines in started status
[15:44] <TheRealMue> dimitern: another review
[15:44] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: you may well be right.
[15:44] <dimitern> TheRealMue: cheers
[15:45] <dimitern> TheRealMue: I feel the same about the 1 or 2 char vars throughout, but changing that is out of scope I think
[15:47]  * dimitern thinks now once I picked up speed I can ravage through the next agent's needed API calls easily (PA I think) :)
[15:52] <TheRealMue> dimitern: But otherwise it never will be changed. ;)
[15:55] <dimitern> TheRealMue: not quite - can be changed independently as a whole
[15:56] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: HasAssignedUnitsError is a tricky one - what should the CodeHasAssignedUnits be? it's not a const
[15:56] <rogpeppe2> dimitern: it should be a const like the others
[15:57] <dimitern> rogpeppe2: it can be a format string, but that will duplicate the logic in state
[15:57] <rogpeppe> dimitern: i'm not sure i see the problem.
[15:57] <rogpeppe> dimitern: why can't it just be a const code like the other codes?
[15:57] <dimitern> rogpeppe: func (e *HasAssignedUnitsError) Error() string { return fmt.Sprintf("machine %s has unit %q assigned", e.MachineId, e.UnitNames[0]) }
[15:58] <rogpeppe> dimitern: the message is separate from the code
[15:58] <dimitern> rogpeppe: ah, ok
[15:58] <rogpeppe> dimitern: take a look at the serverError implementation
[16:31] <dimitern> rogpeppe: ok, all done, will repropose soon and I'd appreciate one last look (running tests now)
[16:31] <rogpeppe> dimitern: ok
[16:41] <dimitern> rogpeppe: https://codereview.appspot.com/9614043
[16:52] <rogpeppe> dimitern: reviewed
[16:53] <dimitern> rogpeppe: thanks
[16:56] <dimitern> rogpeppe: I don't get what's wrong with the error code check in opMachine1EnsureDead - do you mean to move the error check into a test similar to TestMachineEnsureDead instead?
[16:56] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yes. the op checks are only for sanity - they should not be used to test specific functionality
[16:58] <dimitern> rogpeppe: ok
[16:58] <dimitern> rogpeppe: will do that and land it then
[17:00] <dimitern> rogpeppe: ah, perhaps you meant add it to errorTransformTests ?
[17:01] <dimitern> rogpeppe: or that as well as the separate test case for EnsureDead?
[17:02] <mgz> dimitern: poke me if any of my review comments are unclear or just silly
[17:03] <dimitern> mgz: already replied :)
[17:04] <Makyo> Anyone up for a review of https://codereview.appspot.com/9566045/ - refactor deploy to statecmd?
[17:06] <mgz> dimitern: you can carry forward my lgtm
[17:06] <dimitern> mgz: cheers
[17:12] <mgz> Makyo: done, poke rog or dimitern as well though
[17:13] <Makyo> mgz, cool, thanks.  Will poke around the args, too, see what can be reduced.
[17:22]  * rogpeppe has got to go. g'night all
[17:22] <rogpeppe> dimitern: yeah, it should be in errorTransformTests
[17:23] <rogpeppe> dimitern: which probably means you don't need a separate test for the error return
[17:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe: well I did both
[17:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe: they're different anyway
[17:23] <dimitern> rogpeppe: one tests the flow and the other changes to serverError
[17:27] <dimitern> ok, i'm off - mass effect is calling for me ;)
[17:28] <dimitern> g'night all
[21:30] <thumper> morning mramm
[21:30] <mramm> morning
[21:45] <thumper> morning wallyworld_
[21:45] <wallyworld_> g'day
[23:58] <wallyworld_> thumper: in your branch, i can't see where DescriptionTimeout is used to kill the process


[17:05] <AllanLinux> Hey guys. I'm running a script to get files from a server to Linux, but I always get: scp: ambiguous target. The file path has no spaces, very strange.
[17:05] <AllanLinux> sshpass -p "$PASSW" scp -v -d -t $USER@$SERVER:"E:/Backup/PortalComunicacao/PortalComunicacao_backup_`date +%d-%m-%Y`*.bak" /opt/Allan
[17:29] <tomreyn> AllanLinux: are you sure there's a '-d' option to scp?
[17:32] <tomreyn> What is the remote scp server, eopnssh on WSL? Is the remote path format acceptable to the remote server?
[17:32] <TJ-> scp doesn't have -t (tty force) either
[17:33] <tomreyn> the actual issue is probably the lacking trailing slash on the local path, though: if /opt/Allan is a directory, then make it /opt/Allan/ instead
[17:33] <TJ-> won't the *.bak get expanded by the local shell?
[17:34] <tomreyn> probably that, too, due to double quotes.
[17:35] <TJ-> the remote syntax threw me but I assume it is just the Windows/CIFs way
[20:17] <Annoyed> Greetings.  I'm in the process of moving from 14.04 LTS to 18.04, and I'm finding a number of strange things
[20:18] <ikonia> Annoyed: just explain what you're struggling with and people will help if they can
[20:20] <Annoyed> The current question is name resolution. This is gonna be a nameserver for my local network, but it doesn't seem to have BIND installed by default. Is that correct?
[20:20] <teward> Annoyed: by default BIND is not installed, correct.
[20:20] <teward> you would have to install BIND and set it up accordingly
[20:22] <Annoyed> That I expect to have to do. Byt I have not yet installed it. AS of now, nslookup at the command prompt gives me <IP_ADDRESS> as the responding server.. IS there already another DNS server that comes with this ?
[20:23] <TJ-> Annoyed: <IP_ADDRESS> tells us that systemd-resolved is in use
[20:23] <Annoyed> So, there is another nameserver installed
[20:24] <teward> Annoyed: no
[20:24] <teward> that's a local resolver system inbuilt to the systemd locally
[20:24] <teward> it's *not* a NameServer that you would want to use to serve DNS to the local network itself
[20:24] <Annoyed> or is that forwarding to the ISP's servers and claiming to do it itself?
[20:24] <teward> you can configure it to use your BIND instance once you set it up for recursive DNS
[20:25] <teward> Annoyed: forwarding to the ISP servers configured by DHCP or in your static netowrk config
[20:26] <Annoyed> Ok, will bind's install scripts change that? or how do I tell it to use BIND instead of whatever it is using. I've gathered that it's not as simple as a simple file edit as it was in 14.04
[20:30] <teward> Annoyed: you would configure your network settings to use <IP_ADDRESS>:53 as your nameserver - that should make it point to BIND
[20:31] <teward> your computer would still use systemd-resolved to issue DNS quereies, but it'll just query your BIND server directly localy
[20:31] <teward> but configure the BIND server first and make sure lookups work right ;)
[20:31] <teward> THEN mess with the local system's DNS
[20:33] <Annoyed> I've still got all the config (actually, the entire old hard drive) stored on this, so I can copy the old config directly, that has worked for years. So that's not an issue.. problem is telling the damned system to use it
[20:38] <Annoyed> Thanks
[20:39] <Annoyed> I'll see what happens when I try to set it up.
[20:40] <Annoyed> Oh, PS: TJ- what you were helping me w/ earlier is a PITA. Nothing that uses that inside interface works if nothing is plugged into it.. Had to get an old router to plug into it to keep it up.
[20:43] <DammitJim> I am  trying to join my Ubuntu 18.04 LTS server to an AD
[20:43] <DammitJim> net join works
[20:44] <DammitJim> but I can't log on to the server with credentials of a domain user
[20:44] <DammitJim> I'm using sssd + realmd and stuff


[12:54] <apw> can anyone tell me if 'clickpad's are supported at the X server yet?  i have kernel patches which imply that X is handling the fact that the thing only has one button
[13:05] <tjaalton> apw: not in the synaptics version in maverick, dunno what natty has
[13:07] <apw> tjaalton, yeah this is for natty ...
[13:07] <tjaalton> apw: but the driver forces only one button (and 2-button emulation) for the device if it's a clickpad
[13:07] <tjaalton> the upstream version anyway
[13:07] <tjaalton> and natty should get 1.4.x at some point
[13:08] <tjaalton> 1.3.0 should be good as well aiui
[13:08] <tjaalton> that's waiting in experimental
[13:09] <tjaalton> though there's one patch that doesn't seem to be upstream, though it should have gone there months ago
[13:09] <tjaalton> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=590835
[13:09] <ubot4> bugzilla.redhat.com bug 590835 in xorg-x11-drv-synaptics "Clickpad unusable on Hp mini 210" [Medium,Assigned]
[13:15] <ScottK> RAOF: I saw you mention planned work on multi monitor experience in #ubuntu-devel.  If I can find a KDE/Kubuntu person who's interested would you be willing to provide mentoring so we can do the same (No, I plan on implementing it for KDE too is a perfectly acceptable answer ;-))?
[13:16] <tjaalton> apw: hum, it's not upstream yet it seems
[13:16] <tjaalton> apw: fedora added it to their package
[13:16] <tjaalton> but not upstream
[13:19] <apw> tjaalton, ok ... so it sounds like we are good kernel wise, and we await x catching up
[13:20] <tjaalton> apw: yep
[13:20] <tjaalton> I'll ping peter (hutterer) when he's online
[13:21] <tjaalton> weekend already down under ;)
[13:21] <apw> tjaalton, thanks that get me down to only 4 patches not accounted for in the rebase
[13:45] <jcristau> tjaalton: what's the plan for natty?  server 1.10 and mesa 7.10, or?
[13:47] <tjaalton> jcristau: yeah something like that
[13:48] <tjaalton> bryce sent an email to ubuntu-x@ about the planned versions
[13:48] <Sarvatt> jcristau: yep
[13:48] <jcristau> maybe i should be on ubuntu-x..
[13:48] <jcristau> too many lists
[13:49] <jcristau> focusing on trying to release squeeze in 2010 atm..
[13:50] <tjaalton> hehe
[13:50] <tjaalton> yeah maybe that could be sent to debian-x@ as well..
[13:53] <tjaalton> hum the clickpad patch was reviewed by peter in April, but for some reason they never got in upstream git, even though there was no released kernel that supported it (f13 had it)
[13:53] <Sarvatt> server 1.10 is still up in the air but preferred if the XI 2.1 stuff even lands in it
[13:53] <Sarvatt> lucid had it too
[13:53] <Sarvatt> the kernel side
[13:54] <tjaalton> that was the old patch
[13:54] <tjaalton> when the kernel handled it..
[13:55] <tjaalton> and it's what apw is trying to get rid of aiui :)
[13:56] <apw> tjaalton, oh its _gone_ it clashed with what was merged upstream
[13:56] <tjaalton> ah of course
[13:56] <apw> from what i can see the 3 button mode did not make it, a single button mode did.  the commentary in the patch imples that this is a normal thing and X can handle it (should handle it)
[13:57] <tjaalton> yes, from what I can tell the synaptics driver will use emulation when only one button is reported by the kernel
[14:00] <Sarvatt> wonder if anything is upstream for alps yet, using evdev for a touchpad really does suck and I'm surprised how many laptops ship with that alps crap
[16:00] <sharkbird> Does anyone know of a multihead video card that supports three monitors and works well with ubuntu?  Years ago I was able to set this up on debian using two video cards, but that method does not seem to work with recent X servers.
[16:48] <Sarvatt> sharkbird: a radeon HD 5xxx or newer with at least 1 displayport monitor (or a digital connection with an active displayport converter on the third)
[16:50] <sharkbird> Sorvatt:  with that card would I be able to configure all three monitors with Catalyst
[16:51] <jcristau> 2 cards should still work depending on driver, luck, and enough prayers
[16:51] <jcristau> not that i've tested that or anything
[16:51] <Sarvatt> yep, the limitations on it are kind of complicated though, there is some info on it here http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=51
[16:52] <Sarvatt> there are people using 6 monitors on one GPU on those, if only displayport monitors that are required were more common..
[16:53] <jcristau> hmm, memory bw for scanout to 6 monitors must be interesting :)
[16:53] <sharkbird> Sarvatt:  thanks for the link  I appreciate your help.
[16:53] <Sarvatt> active converters cost almost as much as a GPU or dp monitor last I checked
[16:54] <Sarvatt> the things with 6 dp outputs have like 200GB/second memory bandwidth :)
[16:56] <sharkbird> jcristau:  I must be really unlucky.  I have spent about a week trying various permutations of settings, and using various tutorials.  The closest I have come is having one display on built in video card and two cloned displays on a ati r4350.
[16:59] <Sarvatt> I've never gone through the hell that setting up 2 cards like that is but from what I've seen I'd only even attempt it if I was using the nvidia proprietary drivers for both GPUs
[17:00] <Sarvatt> only people I've talked to that got a remotely usable setup were using that I mean
[17:01] <sharkbird> I had  4 monitor/ 2 card (one agp/ one pci) working on debian sid years ago.  I must have gotten lucky though.
[19:13] <Sarvatt> anyone have any ideas on how to "fix" x11-apps on natty? every single one needs extra libs to build.. we dont run autoreconf on those so easy PKG_CHK_MODULES configure.ac patches wont fly.. patch configure.ac and have autoreconf patches for all of them or run autoreconf at build time with patches or what?
[19:14] <Sarvatt> xbiff needs http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/app/xbiff/commit/?id=070c9d45cc0678708d5766804d0c529bc6f8bee3 for instance
[19:16] <jcristau> push the configure.ac patches upstream, release, pull in the distro? :)
[19:22] <Sarvatt> oh hey thats actually appropriate for most of these so far, I failed at grepping
[19:46] <Sarvatt> hmm bitmap doesn't even need a configure.ac change, just an autoreconf
[19:46] <Sarvatt> configure:5709: checking for BITMAP
[19:46] <Sarvatt> configure:5716: $PKG_CONFIG --exists --print-errors "x11 xbitmaps xaw7 xmu"
[19:46] <Sarvatt> vs
[19:46] <Sarvatt> configure:5700: checking for BITMAP
[19:46] <Sarvatt> configure:5707: $PKG_CONFIG --exists --print-errors "xbitmaps xaw7 xmu"
[19:48] <Sarvatt> nevermind, i'm gonna look at it later, git checkout + autogen.sh works but the tarball version doesn't