[06:37] <crimsun> lamont: got your sound working yet? If not, try sudo modprobe snd-cs4232 port=0x534 cport=0x538 mpu_port=-1 fm_port=0x388 irq=5 dma1=1 dma2=0 isapnp=0
[06:37] <crimsun> lamont: values to some of those params may differ, but it should be the idea
[11:31] <svenl> hi guys.
[11:31] <svenl> BenC: i hear you are the new guy in charge of the ubuntu kernel.
[11:32] <svenl> i am testing ubuntu/breezy on pegasos, and fixing the remaining problems.
[11:34] <svenl> BenC: i would like your comment on 15573, which allows the marvell gigabit ethernet to support hotplug.
[11:42] <svenl> fabbione: hi.
[11:42] <fabbione> svenl: ho
[11:42] <fabbione> hi even
[11:43] <svenl> fabbione: do you have a powerrpc 2.6.14-rc4 kernel handy somewhere, i just did a breezy install and wants to play with the new marvell sata driver.
[11:44] <fabbione> no i don't
[11:44] <fabbione> we are still working on the tree
[11:44] <fabbione> portforwarding the patches and stuff
[11:44] <svenl> ok.
[11:44] <svenl> you have too much patches :)
[11:45] <fabbione> no
[11:45] <svenl> fabbione: i will use the debian kernel for testing, may work.
[11:45] <fabbione> we are just switching RCS at the same time
[11:45] <svenl> fabbione: BTW, what about : #15573
[11:45] <fabbione> svenl: you need to wait for Ben
[11:45] <fabbione> i don't have commit access yet
[11:45] <svenl> fabbione: i will probably not be online later when he is active, can you ping him about it ?
[11:46] <svenl> fabbione: where will it go ?
[11:46] <fabbione> svenl: i won't be online either
[11:46] <fabbione> but he reads backlog i think
[11:46] <svenl> fabbione: cool.
[11:46] <fabbione> svenl fabbione: where will it go ?  <- ???
[11:46] <svenl> i had hoped to see it in breezy.
[11:47] <fabbione> if it goes in, will be for dapper
[11:47] <svenl> fabbione: in what kind of kernel packages, breezy-updates, breezy+1, ?
[11:47] <svenl> :/
[11:47] <fabbione> dapper
[11:47] <svenl> i will need to do a custom build then.
[11:48] <svenl> but then it will br broken again in each subsequent upgrade.
[11:48] <svenl> which sucks.
[03:00] <zul> heylo
[03:02] <zul> anyone care to explain this 2 kernel business?
[03:07] <Yagisan> zul: if I understood it correctly - it's like this
[03:08] <Yagisan> zul: we have source a, we add patches b + c to create -foo, and we add patches c + d to create -bar
[03:09] <Yagisan> zul: It all uses 'a' as the base source, to keep updates in sync
[03:09] <Yagisan> zul: That is of course assuming I understood it correctly
[03:11] <zul> hmmm...ok...ill go read the thread again
[04:23] <fabbione> zul: yeah.. more or less like Yagisan says
[04:23] <fabbione> zul: but even simpler
[04:23] <fabbione> -server will be source a+fix(b)
[04:23] <fabbione> desktop will be source a+fix(b)+shinyfeature(c)
[04:23] <fabbione> basically server will be more conservative
[04:38] <BenC> most likely server will be the same source with shinyfeatures(c) disabled, correct?
[04:39] <BenC> most shinyfeatures are configurable and non-intrusive
[04:39] <fabbione> BenC: if we can do that, yes
[04:39] <fabbione> BenC: anyway a long thread explode on ubuntu-devel mailing list
[04:40] <fabbione> and it's a good idea you look at it and answer too
[04:40] <fabbione> BenC: i finally managed to get a checkout of your tree
[04:40] <fabbione> did you grab the cloop source pristine from Debian or just ported our patch?
[04:41] <fabbione> iirc we did add an extra fix to it, that for one reason or another never made upstream
[04:41] <fabbione> but in any case we have it in .12 as reference
[04:41] <BenC> trying to remember
[04:41] <fabbione> BenC: now we should try a commit if you have time..
[04:42] <BenC> sure
[04:42] <fabbione> ok.. just a one liner change in debian/changelog
[04:42] <fabbione> i did the change
[04:42] <fabbione> now git commit
[04:42] <BenC> fabbione: can you bounce me the primary email to that thread so I can comment? I'm not sub'd to -devel yet, and when I do today, I still wont be getting most of it
[04:43] <BenC> edit, git-update-index <file>; git commit
[04:43] <BenC> hold a sec before the commit
[04:43] <fabbione> sure
[04:43] <BenC> use this template
[04:43] <BenC> [UBUNTU:]
[04:43] <BenC> PatchAuthor:
[04:43] <BenC> UpstreamStatus:
[04:43] <BenC> space after first line
[04:43] <BenC> wait, is this an external driver?
[04:44] <fabbione> BenC: no, just a one liner change as test commit
[04:44] <fabbione> we did never try if it work
[04:44] <BenC> ok, then use that template
[04:44] <fabbione> since it will commit to your tree
[04:44] <fabbione> or should at least
[04:44] <BenC> and the last line should read "Signed-off-by: Fabio ..."
[04:44] <BenC> you are pushing to my tree or yours?
[04:44] <fabbione> BenC: iirc there was a file to stick that Signed-off-by:
[04:45] <fabbione> to your tree
[04:45] <BenC> fabbione: git commit -s
[04:45] <BenC> that will do it if you have the proper env vars set
[04:45] <BenC> GIT_COMMITTER_NAME=Ben Collins
[04:45] <BenC><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:45] <fabbione> that i don't think i do
[04:45] <fabbione> exacly
[04:46] <BenC> first line should look like:
[04:46] <BenC> [UBUNTU:ppc]  Disable serial 8250 initialization on PMAC
[04:47] <fabbione> ok, but i am going to change only your email address in debian/changelog as a test commit
[04:47] <fabbione> so i will write:
[04:47] <fabbione> [UBUNTU:debian]  Test commit - fix Ben email address
[04:48] <fabbione> does that fit?
[04:48] <fabbione> we only want to check if it works..
[04:48] <mkrufky> sorry to barge in on the conversation.... are you guys moving away from Baz and towards -git ?
[04:48] <fabbione> mkrufky: see /topic :)
[04:48] <mkrufky> lol
[04:48] <mkrufky> oops
[04:49] <fabbione> BenC: ok. trying to commit now :)
[04:49] <mkrufky> awesome.....
[04:49] <BenC> sure, that will work
[04:49] <fabbione> BenC: hmm it didn't like GIT_COMMITTER_EMAIL
[04:50] <fabbione> Signed-off-by: Fabio M. Di Nitto <fabbione@gordian.(none)>
[04:50] <fabbione> but the env var is there
[04:50] <BenC> sure you exported it?
[04:50] <BenC> run "git-var GIT_COMMITTER_IDENT"
[04:50] <fabbione> you
[04:50] <fabbione> echo $GIT_COMMITTER_EMAIL
[04:50] <fabbione><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:51] <BenC> export GIT_COMMITTER_EMAIL GIT_COMMITTER_NAME
[04:51] <BenC> see if that helps
[04:51] <fabbione> it does.. but it's weird
[04:51] <fabbione> they are in .bashrc
[04:51] <fabbione> oh well crappy
[04:51] <fabbione> i will lart the bash maintainer later
[04:51] <BenC> if you don't export it, it's only a local var, not an env var
[04:52] <fabbione> than it shouldn't take the NAME either.. but it does :)
[04:52] <BenC> it got that from gecos probably
[04:53] <fabbione> oh right
[04:53] <fabbione> [UBUNTU:debian]  Test commit - Fix Ben C. email address.
[04:53] <fabbione> Signed-off-by: Fabio M. Di Nitto<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:53] <fabbione> # On branch refs/heads/ubuntu-2.6.14
[04:53] <fabbione> #
[04:53] <fabbione> # Updated but not checked in:
[04:53] <fabbione> #   (will commit)
[04:53] <fabbione> #
[04:53] <fabbione> #       modified: debian/changelog
[04:53] <fabbione> except for the blank line between [UBUNTU
[04:53] <fabbione> and the Signed off
[04:53] <fabbione> do you want me to add anything else?
[04:56] <BenC> nah, that looks good
[04:56] <fabbione> CRANKY
[04:56] <fabbione> Author: Fabio M. Di Nitto <fabbione@gordian.(none)>
[04:56] <fabbione> it still got the Author line wrong
[04:56] <BenC> GIT_AUTHOR_NAME/EMAIL too
[04:56] <BenC> where are you committing to
[04:57] <fabbione> i committed only on the local tree
[04:57] <BenC> and you are going push to your rookery tree, right?
[04:57] <fabbione> not with these bad info.. no
[04:58] <fabbione> let see how undo works :)
[04:59] <fabbione> ok perfect..
[04:59] <fabbione> i am satisfied
[04:59] <fabbione> Author: Fabio M. Di Nitto<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:01] <fabbione> BenC: git revert is fun :)
[05:03] <fabbione> BenC: did put all these things somewhere on the wiki or in a doc?
[05:05] <BenC> yeah, in a doc that I still need to post to the wiki
[05:06] <fabbione> BenC: ok :)
[05:06] <fabbione> that will be really helpful :)
[05:14] <zul> yep yep
[05:42] <fabbione> BenC: i think that the idea of helpers is good, but the fact that we will push into the kernel the same crack as in desktop.. hmm i am not so convinced about it
[05:42] <fabbione> BenC: if you mean different configs on the same tree than i am more ok with ti
[05:43] <fabbione> like disabling software suspend and stuff  like that
[05:46] <svenl> hi BenC .
[05:46] <svenl> about #15573
[05:46] <svenl> do you have any coments ?
[06:06] <BenC> svenl: sure, I'll get it into dapper's kernel for sure
[06:07] <BenC> fabbione: I meant same source tree, different configs
[06:19] <BenC> mjg59: ping
[06:21] <mjg59> BenC: Hi
[06:21] <BenC> mjg59: can you tell me about external-arch-i386-kernel-reboot_reboot-thru-bios?
[06:21] <BenC> -static int reboot_thru_bios;
[06:21] <BenC> +static int reboot_thru_bios=1;
[06:22] <BenC> I think that may be causing our "machine halts instead of reboot in breezy" problem
[06:23] <BenC> brb
[06:25] <mjg59> I asked you to drop that patch
[06:25] <mjg59> I thought we had done
[07:36] <BenC> maybe it was
[07:37] <BenC> nope, it was in breezy
[07:53] <BenC> fabbione: ping
[08:02] <mjg59> BenC: Ok. We fixed the problem another way, so it should have been removed
[08:03] <mjg59> It can still be overridden with reboot=h
[08:03] <BenC> scheduled for 9.24
[08:58] <svenl> BenC: would have been nice to have it fixed for breezy though.
[09:30] <BenC> svenl: I can think of a few dozen bugs that would have been nice to have fixed for breezy :)
[09:30] <BenC> fabbione: around?
[09:31] <svenl> BenC: well, sure, but this one had a patch, and was orthogonal to everything else, and the patch was written especially for ubuntu, and it would have taken maybe 5 minutes to apply it.
[09:32] <svenl> BenC: and now we have to wait again 6 month to get a version of ubuntu who really works on pegasos, and we can thus not ship ubuntu DVDs which each outgoing pegasos machine.
[09:32] <svenl> BenC: unless we hack the iso and produce our own kernels.
[09:32] <svenl> BenC: which are a nightmare with regard to security updates.
[09:32] <svenl> BenC: still, there was not even a comment on the bug report.
[09:33] <BenC> considering the bug was never called to my attention until now, it's not surprising that it didn't get in
[09:33] <svenl> BenC: yeah, well, the bug was filled against the ubuntu kernel package on sept 16.
[09:34] <BenC> what would you like me to do?
[09:34] <svenl> does this mean that the ubuntu BTS can't be thrusthed.
[09:34] <svenl> BenC: i guess there is nothing to do except use a time machine :/
[09:34] <HiddenWolf> svenl, what's pegasos?
[09:34] <BenC> every bug has a priority, and that close to release, the patch wasn't a priority, since it wasn't a regression
[09:34] <BenC> HiddenWolf: A hacker's only developer board
[09:35] <svenl> HiddenWolf: the only powerpc desktop still selling.
[09:35] <BenC> usually, anyone using it would be compiling their own kernel
[09:35] <svenl> BenC: that is pure bullshit.
[09:35] <svenl> BenC: the debian kernel works perfectly on it, and i have not seen people recompile their kernels since a long long time.
[09:36] <BenC> ok, I stand corrected
[09:36] <HiddenWolf> svenl, I agree it sucks, but please stay cool.
[09:36] <svenl> BenC: but then, nothing ever came from the ubuntu/debian kernel co-operation tproject.
[09:36] <svenl> HiddenWolf: well, i am a bit disapointed, but cool.
[09:36] <BenC> svenl: look, I've only been the kernel maintainer ofr a few months for ubuntu
[09:37] <BenC> so taking out your agression on me will get you ignored more than anything
[09:37] <jbailey> svenl: Septembe 16th is way after most of the freezes.
[09:37] <svenl> BenC: i aplogize, i didn't want to sound agressive.
[09:37] <BenC> well, you were way across the agressive line
[09:37] <svenl> jbailey: well, there are at least 3 ubuntu folk with pegasos machines, aren't there.
[09:38] <svenl> BenC: sorry.
[09:38] <svenl> jbailey: donated pegasos machines even :)
[09:38] <jbailey> svenl: Sure.  And you'll notice that as soon as we moved into the new release cycle that I asked you right away about it.
[09:38] <HiddenWolf> svenl, the ubuntu guys get buried under bugs. The project is still young, and the userbase has exploded. Please do the math. If you really care about a bug, you should try and take proactive action and bring it to the attention.
[09:38] <jbailey> svenl: That way we can deal with it early and make sure that it's ready for the next release.
[09:38] <svenl> jbailey: and not a single one of those tested breezy installs on it :)
[09:39] <jbailey> svenl: Thinking of which, got a new OF for me for the yaboot CD bug? =)
[09:39] <svenl> HiddenWolf: whatever, still, there are only 15k bugs in the BTS, so i wonder how this is supposed to work.
[09:39] <BenC> svenl: it'll get better in dapper, and I'll try to squeeze in the fix you pointed out for a breezy update
[09:39] <HiddenWolf> svenl, that is 15.000 bugs on Ubuntu main in a year.
[09:39] <BenC> that's about all I can promise at this point
[09:39] <svenl> Maybe i am spoiled by the debian system, but when i file a bug, i don't expect it to be ignored.
[09:39] <svenl> BenC: yep.
[09:40] <BenC> svenl: it wasn't ignored, but bugs do take priority
[09:40] <svenl> BenC: when i get no reply, it is ignored.
[09:40] <svenl> BenC: proof of it is that it wasn't fixed.
[09:40] <svenl> jbailey: please get yaboot fixed first, i filled a bug earlier.
[09:41] <HiddenWolf> svenl, you are really not helping your case here.
[09:41] <jbailey> svenl: Breezy isn't open for uploads yet.
[09:41] <svenl> BenC: i wonder about the right way to handle this kind of bugs, there is a balance between letting a bug smolder in the BTS, and bothering the ubuntu guys.
[09:41] <BenC> at that point, I was stretching my limits by trying to go through all the old bug
[09:41] <jbailey> svenl: If you'd like guarnateed response time, we do offer support contracts. =)
[09:41] <svenl> jbailey: hey, you promised me those grub2 .deb sources.
[09:42] <BenC> svenl: no response doesn't mean it was intentionally ignored
[09:42] <jbailey> svenl: They're on the pegasos.
[09:42] <BenC> svenl: I can't send an email to all bugs saying "I got your bug, but it wont be fixed for breezy"
[09:42] <jbailey> I should load up the old OF so I can boot.
[09:42] <svenl> jbailey: could you send them to me ?
[09:42] <BenC> svenl: anyway, you've got my response here now, so let's move on
[09:43] <jbailey> svenl: Yup
[09:44] <svenl> BenC: well, i am not some random unknown guy, so you could have thrusted me more, especially as the fix went into debian the exact same day, and the fix only needed copying the patch over and adding it to the next build, it would have taken maybe 1 minute, and it only affected a module present only on the pegasos, and tested nowhere else.
[09:44] <svenl> BenC: so, yes, i am happy that you didn't not send such a mail, as it would have taken you more time to apply the fix.
[09:45] <svenl> but as said, enough spoken about this.
[09:46] <svenl> jbailey: BTW, about support contracts, do i then get a share of the money back for the work i do on let's say parted ?
[09:46] <svenl> jbailey: so it should work both way.
[09:47] <HiddenWolf> svenl, you just said "enough spoken about this"
[09:47] <HiddenWolf> svenl, please leave it at that.
[09:49] <jbailey> svenl: No, sorry.  But if someone with a support contract asks us to fix a bug, then we do our best to do it.
[09:50] <jbailey> svenl: If we contract with you to fix a bug, we'd expect you to do that.
[09:51] <mjg59> svenl: The patch in the attachment is bad, anyway. Why's it #including stuff at the end of the file? Why does it have another random hunk in it?
[09:53] <svenl> jbailey: and how many time i got asked to fix parted issues and make uploads ?
[09:53] <svenl> mjg59: the patch in the debian package is fine, and was hinted to back then.
[09:53] <jbailey> svenl: I can pretty much promise you so far that none of those requests have been on behalf of our customers.
[09:53] <svenl> mjg59: just grab it from there.
[09:53] <svenl> jbailey: yeah, whatever. just saying it goes both way.
[09:54] <mjg59> svenl: The patch that you pointed at in subversion is *not fine*
[09:54] <jbailey> svenl: *exactly*  We don't have any commitment from you to respond in a timely manner.
[09:54] <jbailey> We don't count on it.
[09:54] <svenl> mjg59: ah, yeah, strange, it builds in debian 2.6.12 and 2.6.13 and 2.6.14-rc4 packages, so ?
[09:54] <jbailey> If you're swamped with bugs, take a vacation or whatever, you'll respond when you have time or get to that point in the queue.
[09:54] <svenl> jbailey: yeah, i am not convinced.
[09:54] <mjg59> svenl: Why does it contain code that's nothing to do with the problem being solved? Why does it have a #include on line 1600?
[09:54] <jbailey> *shrug*
[09:54] <svenl> jbailey: but let's not speak about this.
[09:54] <jbailey> I'm not trying to convince you of anything.
[09:55] <svenl> mjg59: let me check.
[09:55] <svenl> +#include <linux/pci.h>
[09:56] <svenl> this one ?
[09:56] <svenl> mjg59: to be able to do +               { PCI_DEVICE(PCI_VENDOR_ID_MARVELL, PCI_DEVICE_ID_MARVELL_MV64360) },
[09:56] <mjg59> Yes. Put it with all the other #includes.
[09:56] <mjg59> And what's the first hunk of the patch all about?
[09:56] <svenl> mjg59: i agree that it could be put in front, but it is cosmetic.
[09:57] <mjg59> What's the status of this patch? Is it being pushed upstream?
[09:57] <svenl> mjg59: you may want to rediff it anyway.
[09:57] <svenl> mjg59: it will be pushed upstream.
[09:57] <svenl> # Upstream status: In the process of being submitted, may need a bit of
[09:57] <svenl> # cleanup in order to not break embedded arches using this controller, but
[09:57] <svenl> # should not be a worry for debian.
[09:57] <svenl> nor ubuntu either.
[09:57] <mjg59> svenl: So you're complaining that a patch that isn't even guaranteed to apply against the tree you want it applied to wasn't applied?
[09:57] <svenl> mjg59: well, am i supposed to do your job also.
[09:58] <svenl> mjg59: chances are very very good that it applies, unless you have patched this file yourself, but as it is used only for embedded stuff, you probably didn't.
[09:58] <mjg59> If you want an enhancement added, then it's far more likely if you make it as easy to do so as possible
[09:58] <mjg59> Which includes fixing cosmetic issues and making sure that the diff doesn't include random other shit
[09:58] <svenl> mjg59: also, i have no idea.
[09:58] <svenl> mjg59: you all suck.
[09:58] <svenl> mjg59: that are just excuses.
[09:58] <svenl> and you perfectly know it.
[10:08] <zul> okie dokie


[12:41] <jjesse> trying to apt-get update from breezy to dapper and getting errors for debtags and adept
[12:42] <jjesse> http://pastebin.com/458972 for me errors
[12:43] <Diablo-D3> jjesse: thats normal
[12:43] <Diablo-D3> debtags is still broken
[12:43] <jjesse> Diablo-D3: ok, didn't know
[12:43] <jjesse> everything else should be fine to use it then ?
[12:43] <Diablo-D3> yeah
[12:43] <Diablo-D3> debtags and adept is just for the kde apt-get frontend
[12:43] <Diablo-D3> the only thing else broke is some python thing no one uses
[12:44] <Diablo-D3> oh, and apt-get still doesnt understand that libakode replaces akode
[12:44] <jjesse> cool, was just nervous
[12:44] <Diablo-D3> afaik nothing else is broken
[03:30] <Riddell> flosoft: hi
[04:36] <jjesse> if my sound card is not detected during install, how can i set it up?
[04:48] <seth_k|lappy> jjesse, that's a question for #kubuntu or #ubuntu, not a -devel channel
[04:48] <jjesse> doh was in the wrong channel sorry seth_k
[04:48] <seth_k|lappy> no worries
[10:36] <pef> hellol
[10:49] <raphink> Riddell: is there a reason why kdmtheme is not available on ubuntu?
[11:45] <jpatrick> Riddell: I think there's a new upstream release for Moodin
[01:17] <freeflying> konqueror crashes too otfen
[01:17] <freeflying> konqueror crashes too  often
[01:27] <Tm_T> hm
[01:27] <Tm_T> inwhat kind of aituations?
[01:27] <Tm_T> s
[02:10] <jpatrick> \sh & Riddell: requesting revu : http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1122
[03:51] <mornfall> someone can explain why on earth the version of adpept is 1.0ubuntu1?
[04:05] <mornfall> Riddell: ping... could you please try to ensure future adept versions have +ubuntuN appended, and either correspond to what is on ekhis.org experimental or debian, whichever is higher?
[04:08] <Tm_T> damned
[04:08] <Tm_T> debtags is still uninstallable
[04:08] <Tm_T> err
[04:08] <Tm_T> is not installable
[04:08] <Tm_T> :)
[05:26] <\sh> Riddell: ping
[05:28] <\sh> Riddell: !ping i found what I needed
[05:28] <jpatrick> Me? ;)
[05:42] <author-psi> ;)
[05:43] <jpatrick> hello author-psi
[05:43] <author-psi> hi jpatrick
[06:41] <mornfall> Riddell: http://lorien.mornfall.net:8012/m/adept-tags-easy.png
[06:42] <flosoft> mornfall: what is adept?
[06:42] <mornfall> flosoft: yep
[06:42] <mornfall> flosoft: err, what, not is
[06:43] <mornfall> flosoft: kubuntu's package manager :)
[06:43] <flosoft> ow
[06:43] <flosoft> no synaptic?
[06:43] <mornfall> i like adept better ;-)
[06:47] <flosoft> what is the difference?
[06:59] <flosoft> what happened to kynaptic?
[07:03] <mornfall> flosoft: kynaptic is obsolete
[07:04] <mornfall> flosoft: it was never really maintained, sort of temporary solution
[07:04] <flosoft> ah
[07:04] <flosoft> and adept ... what is the advantage to synaptic?
[07:04] <jpatrick> flosoft: mornfall wrote Adept
[07:05] <flosoft> :)
[07:05] <jpatrick> and Adept's pretty
[07:05] <\sh> jpatrick: no..he asked what is the advantage :)
[07:06] <\sh> jpatrick: adept is pretty much more then pretty..for me it's not usable...and it should be improved
[07:06] <jpatrick> true I prefer apt-get
[07:07] <mornfall> \sh: feel free
[07:07] <\sh> jpatrick: well...thinking like a plain user, there must be something more easier...
[07:07] <mornfall> \sh: i don't have a monopoly
[07:07] <\sh> something like "add application" :)
[07:07] <flosoft> \sh: for me ... I really use the view over my packages
[07:08] <flosoft> *loose
[07:08] <flosoft> sorry
[07:08] <\sh> mornfall: there is imho a spec about it..to improve adept :)
[07:08] <mornfall> \sh: i'm working on it, but i assume you disagree with the plan
[07:09] <mornfall> \sh: (considering you assert it's not usable)
[07:10] <\sh> mornfall: there is a difference between "I use it but it's not that usable" or "it's not usable"...I think it's time to work with mpt on some things of ui style and usability
[07:11] <mornfall> \sh: you said it wasn't usable for you
[07:11] <mornfall> and who's mpt
[07:11] <\sh> mornfall: yes...for me :)
[07:11] <\sh> mornfall: canonicals UI and usability expert
[07:11] <mornfall> eh
[07:12] <mornfall> gnome-app-install huh?
[07:12] <\sh> mornfall: na...
[07:13] <mornfall> \sh: don't worry, i was contacted by openusability
[07:16] <\sh> mornfall: I'm looking forward to see kde 4 in action...thinking about the work is the focus and not the mouse :)
[07:17] <mornfall> i doubt kde will change much externally
[07:17] <mornfall> well, too much
[07:18] <jpatrick> I wanna see Plasma
[07:19] <\sh> well..anyways...I have to write my report about keybindings and the two desktops and the differences and difficulties to use gnome/kde with the keyboard
[07:32] <\sh> Riddell: ping..what should we do with old admin dirs and your patch? I tried to apply it to knemo..but knemos cvs.sh doesn't know anything about extract-messages and replacing the old admin with the new admin dir doesn't work somehow...well I have to investigate
[10:21] <Riddell> \sh: if the admin dir is too old not to have extract-messages and it's only knemo I wouldn't bother
[10:22] <\sh> Riddell: well.I think we have more of them...
[10:22] <\sh> Riddell: I tried to replace it..but it doesn't work out properly


[04:40] <ali1234> Azelphur: that's pretty easy to do. you just need a kernel with gether and an nfs share for root
[05:25] <mapps> hi all
[05:26] <knightwise> mornin mapps
[05:26] <mapps> ;]
[05:26] <mapps> on the last ep of 11.22.63
[06:33] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[06:45] <ali1234> someone just pointed out to me that youtube is now the second most popular website in the world according to alexa, pushing facebook down into third place
[06:46] <brobostigon> google first presumably?
[06:47] <ali1234> yeah
[06:47] <brobostigon> not a surprise.
[06:47] <ali1234> it,s been google, facebook, youtube since about 2009
[06:47] <brobostigon> it might have been popey.com
[06:53] <knightwise> Probably popey.com
[06:54]  * brobostigon just said that.
[06:56] <knightwise> brobostigon is always right :p
[06:57] <brobostigon> my partner is always right, i am not.
[07:45]  * knightwise is deepdiving into kindle knowledge
[09:04] <JamesTait> Good morning all!  Happy Wednesday, and happy Scrabble Day! 😃
[09:11] <knightwise> hey James
[09:11] <knightwise> Scrabbleday is not a word :p
[09:16] <JamesTait> Depends which dictionary you use, knightwise. 😉
[10:00] <daftykins> yay for new PC bits \o/
[10:00] <daftykins> except case
[10:03] <zmoylan-1i> nail it to the wall as an art installation...
[10:03] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/99kp0ykwzdj48ez/AABs_DXJAJvNCwdp4OaTTAxMa?dl=0 :D
[10:04] <zmoylan-pi> all new and shiny...
[10:04] <daftykins> what's great is i got all the bits, then went to get the latest BIOS for the motherboard... oh nice Asus website is down for maintenance!
[10:05] <zmoylan-pi> maintenance... or wonky hardware...
[10:05] <daftykins> >:D
[10:53] <sebsebseb> popey: morning, two questions for you the Ubuntu Phone expert :d  after reading two things on omgubuntu that is
[10:54] <sebsebseb> or is it just one well anhyway
[10:54] <sebsebseb> popey: were there even any plans to bring convergence to the MX4 no I guess not quite?
[10:55]  * sebsebseb really likes his MX4 with Ubuntu on it,  slight ashame got sent the wrong colojur, but ok with silver now
[10:55] <sebsebseb> altough it looks like a lot of other peoples phones in that colour, instead of the gold thing or whatever
[10:56] <sebsebseb> popey: I guess one question, one comment.  nice snaps in 16.04 and deb packages
[11:11] <popey> sebsebseb: i think they hoped to
[11:18] <popey> \o/ put the dehydrator on with slices of apples covered in cinnamon
[11:18] <popey> house is gonna smell yummy soon
[11:19] <diddledan> I finally worked on my own site to make it less fugly :-p https://www.bowlhat.net
[11:19] <diddledan> I'm liking my logo now
[11:20] <diddledan> popey: you getting tasty snacks?
[11:20] <popey> ya
[11:20] <diddledan> oh previous line! silly me
[11:20] <diddledan> apple + cinnamon = yummy
[11:20] <daftykins> there's a man! in the corner!
[11:21] <diddledan> daftykins: that's me
[11:24] <daftykins> :D
[11:25] <daftykins> i feel like you should've been wearing said hat
[11:25] <diddledan> lol
[11:25] <diddledan> yeah I need to invest in a proper bowler hat and get a new photo
[11:26] <daftykins> glad to help! 8D
[11:28] <popey> I know a few brits who wear bowler hats.
[11:28] <popey> Without exceptions, they look like tools.
[11:28] <popey> FYI :)
[11:28] <diddledan> lmao
[11:28] <diddledan> popey: are you suggesting that I'm not tool-like already?
[11:29] <diddledan> if so thank you :-p
[11:30] <popey> yw
[11:30] <daftykins> i still feel sad about losing shauno to the Apple teasing :(
[11:31] <zmoylan-pi> sorry...
[11:31] <daftykins> yeah that big mean zmoylan-pi
[11:31] <daftykins> ;D
[11:31] <popey> losing wat to the wat
[11:31] <daftykins> shauno left the channel after we teased Apple products too much
[11:32] <zmoylan-pi> i don't think we were teasing, more that he had a crappy day and rage quit
[11:32] <popey> ah.
[11:32] <daftykins> totally both!
[11:32] <diddledan> he holds a grudge does that one - he did the same in another channel I used to frequent
[11:32] <popey> #grudge-holders ?
[11:33] <zmoylan-pi> #downwiththissortofthing
[11:33] <diddledan> #carefulnow
[11:33] <daftykins> diddledan had to leave after he no longer bore a grudge to man nor beast
[11:33] <popey> #slashquit
[11:33] <diddledan> #hashtag
[11:33] <diddledan> wait, what?
[11:34] <zmoylan-pi> shouldn't that be ##hashtag
[11:34] <foobarry> maybe he's on holiday and winding you guys up
[11:34] <diddledan> ## channels confuse me - I'm sat in both #wordpress and ##wordpress for example
[11:35] <foobarry> eww
[11:35] <diddledan> foobarry: bloomin long holiday
[11:35] <foobarry> oh when was it?
[11:35] <zmoylan-pi> but not ###wordpress... not a lot of wordpress in that...
[11:35] <diddledan> must be near a year now?
[11:35] <foobarry> wow
[11:35] <foobarry> feel bad for not noticing
[11:36] <zmoylan-pi> he was a night owl, wasn't he?
[11:36] <diddledan> yup
[11:36] <foobarry> #gingers
[11:36] <foobarry> woops
[11:36] <zmoylan-pi> were the calm moderate users hang out... :-P
[11:36] <diddledan> and you!
[11:36] <ali1234> and me
[11:36] <zmoylan-pi> dems fighting words... :-)
[11:37] <daftykins> me, him, ali1234 diddledan and zmoylan-pi could do a Macbeth parody of late night "when shall we 5 meet again?"
[11:37] <daftykins> yay got the count right ;)
[11:37] <zmoylan-pi> when apple release a cheap product? :-P
[11:37] <foobarry> and mapps runs in after accidentally betting his house in the casino
[11:37] <diddledan> lol
[11:37] <zmoylan-pi> some day mapps will bet his kidney...
[11:37] <diddledan> irccloud is being laggy
[11:37] <foobarry> the working one
[11:38] <foobarry> this channel hasn't been remotely ubuntu in years
[11:38] <zmoylan-pi> his liver of course isn't worth an apple eula...
[11:38] <sebsebseb> popey: apparnatly the MX4 hardware isn't really good enough  or has issues for convergence
[11:38] <daftykins> zmoylan-pi: this is why we can't have nice users, y'meanie!
[11:39] <ali1234> shauno is still on freenode, i was talking to him the other day
[11:39] <daftykins> i PM'd once, to no avail
[11:39] <daftykins> he could've easily missed it though
[11:39] <zmoylan-pi> he did pop back in here a few months back didn't he?
[11:39] <diddledan> yeah a short one-day thing, zmoylan-pi
[11:40] <daftykins> :(
[11:40] <foobarry> also that other fella who left canonical
[11:40] <foobarry> i liked him
[11:40] <diddledan> jono?
[11:40] <foobarry> nope
[11:40] <foobarry> he left irc because he left his employer
[11:40] <foobarry> keep going
[11:40] <diddledan> oh well that's silly
[11:40] <foobarry> my brain is failing me
[11:40] <popey> gord
[11:40] <foobarry> +1
[11:40] <foobarry> the allot
[11:40] <popey> ya
[11:40] <popey> he now works for microsoft
[11:41] <popey> thanks to the xamarin buy-out
[11:41] <foobarry> heh
[11:41] <popey> along with about 4 other ex-canonical people
[11:41] <foobarry> hangs out in #linux-lovers
[11:41] <popey> I miss gord
[11:41] <popey> that's a thing?
[11:41] <foobarry> looks at canonical jobs
[11:41] <popey> oh
[11:42] <foobarry> most canonical jobs are juju and openstack atm
[11:42] <sebsebseb> popey: who now works for Microsoft?
[11:43] <popey> sebsebseb: some ex-canonical people
[11:43] <popey> foobarry: https://ldd.tbe.taleo.net/ldd03/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=CANONICAL&cws=1&rid=1104
[11:43] <sebsebseb> not jono though
[11:43] <popey> don't want to move to china?
[11:43] <popey> no, indeed. i wasn't talking about him
[11:43] <sebsebseb> who were the exes?
[11:43] <popey> gord allott, neil patel and david siegel all went to xamarin
[11:44] <popey> They seem happy there :)
[11:44] <sebsebseb> might have heard of one of those names before
[11:44] <sebsebseb> siegel maybe
[11:44] <sebsebseb> popey: Canonical has your soul now :D and family, so no OGG Camp organising for you this year :d,  I read the site update last night
[11:44] <popey> Uh
[11:44] <sebsebseb> ?
[11:45] <popey> I never organised oggcamp
[11:45] <zmoylan-pi> this is canonicals plan. to elop the commercial software industry with all these ex canonical employees around... ;-)
[11:45] <sebsebseb> popey: uh I thought you did, or did you just help with it a bit?
[11:45] <ali1234> i thought you did as well. wasn't the first one basically in your garden?
[11:45] <popey> no
[11:45] <popey> i helped organise the Farnham one
[11:46] <foobarry> i was at that one
[11:46] <sebsebseb> oh right ok so only one
[11:46] <ali1234> oh, getting them mixed up then
[11:46] <popey> but most have been in liverpool, and one in oxford and wolves
[11:46] <foobarry> then it moved to the other side of the planet
[11:46] <sebsebseb> foobarry: over side of planet? heh????
[11:46] <sebsebseb> other
[11:46] <popey> Dan/Mark/Tony/Les did most of the work
[11:46] <foobarry> north of watford innit
[11:46] <sebsebseb> Dan has been quite ill so makes sense why he doesn't want to organise one for this year
[11:46] <popey> ali1234: after I saw your project I went looking for pi zero
[11:46] <popey> you basically can't buy them
[11:46] <ali1234> they announced a new board revision 12 hours after i ot my prototype boards
[11:47] <popey> I guess because they were made out of surplus stock anyway
[11:47] <popey> haha
[11:47] <sebsebseb> someone quit the orgnaising at the event last time
[11:47] <sebsebseb> looks like none this year, but maybe next year
[11:47] <popey> Well, Dan did most of the organising but he's been ill
[11:47] <popey> so can't do it this year
[11:47] <sebsebseb> popey: yep as I just put
[11:47] <ali1234> https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=144165&p=951891#p951891
[11:48] <foobarry> maybe it will spawn southern and northern smaller versions
[11:48] <sebsebseb> foobarry: oher events?
[11:48] <zmoylan-pi> oooh news on pi zero... http://www.recantha.co.uk/blog/?p=14550
[11:48] <sebsebseb> foobarry: yep we could do with at least on UK open source event, but there only really was ogg camp right?
[11:48] <popey> new pizero?
[11:48] <popey> hopefully armv7?
[11:48] <ali1234> no
[11:48] <zmoylan-pi> they're starting production up again and adding a feature
[11:48] <sebsebseb> one above
[11:48] <popey> bah
[11:48] <popey> 8?
[11:48] <ali1234> no!
[11:48] <ali1234> it will still be 6
[11:48] <ali1234> it has a new feature, but nobody knows what it is yet
[11:49] <ali1234> it is probably audio, or (my guess) micro HDMI instead of mini
[11:49] <zmoylan-pi> a ps/2 port \o/ :-)
[11:49] <ali1234> cos everyone complained about mini
[11:50] <ali1234> it won't be header pins, because that would not require a board revision
[11:51] <popey> wifi?
[11:51] <zmoylan-pi> a scsi port... :-)
[11:51] <popey> that would need new chip
[11:51] <zmoylan-pi> they definitely said not wifi i think
[11:51] <ali1234> eben said it's not wifi
[11:51] <popey> ah
[11:51] <ali1234> that means it won't be bluetooth either cos they are the same chip
[11:51] <zmoylan-pi> ir
[11:52] <ali1234> unlikely, i dont think anyone asked for that
[11:52] <zmoylan-pi> i know. i'm just thinking of ancient ports that i still like... :-)
[11:53] <ali1234> "To  thank you for your patience, we've taken advantage of the hiatus to add  a (much requested) new feature. I'll leave you all to guess what it is  (it's not WiFi)."
[11:53] <zmoylan-pi> beaming between palms/psions was so convenient...
[11:53] <ali1234> actually whatever it needs requires a firmware update so it's not micro HDMI
[11:54] <ali1234> that might rule out audio too since that's just device tree
[11:56] <popey> more ram?
[11:56] <zmoylan-pi> more ram would be good
[11:57] <zmoylan-pi> but wouldn't need a firmware change i don't think
[11:57] <ali1234> possibly. they've never done 1GB stacked before though
[11:57] <diddledan> maybe they're gonna do a dedicated bluetooth chip rather than a shared one?
[11:57] <ali1234> it would need a firmware update because of reasons
[11:57] <diddledan> gotta love them reasons
[11:57] <ali1234> diddledan unlikely because it would cost the same as using the combo
[11:57] <sebsebseb> by
[11:57] <diddledan> I do lots of stuff because reasons
[11:57] <sebsebseb> e
[11:57] <ali1234> also RF testing etc
[11:57] <sebsebseb> bye
[11:57] <daftykins> \o
[11:57] <diddledan> good point
[11:58]  * sebsebseb leaves IRC
[11:58] <ali1234> RAM configuration is done in the firmware due to how the VC sets up the ARM address space
[11:58] <ali1234> it's really complicated
[11:58] <diddledan> ooh, maybe it is a ramboost then
[11:59] <diddledan> can you get 1GB POPs?
[11:59] <ali1234> no idea
[11:59] <ali1234> dont see why not though
[11:59] <ali1234> depends on the broadcom part
[12:00]  * zmoylan-pi casts ward evil at mention of broadcom
[12:01] <diddledan> they have the clout to get broadcom to do custom work these days tho so they might be able to get a new package which exposes a different POP interface allowing for larger piggy-backing RAM volumes?
[12:01] <zmoylan-pi> they have sold a lot of pi...
[12:01] <diddledan> that would also lead-way to the pi3 getting a piggy-back in addition to it's reverse-side chip allowing for doule
[12:01] <diddledan> double
[12:02] <ali1234> the videocore used int he raspberry pi cannot use more than 1GB so that won't happen
[12:02] <diddledan> aah
[12:02] <diddledan> that's a shame :-(
[12:02] <diddledan> I wonder why that is a limitation
[12:02] <zmoylan-pi> i think the pi 1gb of ram is the pi's biggest bottle neck at the mo
[12:03] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi: yeah
[12:03] <ali1234> because the videocore uses MIPS-style segmented memory
[12:03] <zmoylan-pi> a 2gb or 4gb pi would be a full pc for me at this point... :-)
[12:03] <ali1234> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7747265/why-in-mips-architecture-program-space-divided-into-4-areas
[12:04] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi: yeah that would work for me, too - as a webdev I don't need powerful gfx or cpu - as long as it boots fairly quick and there's enough ram to have multiple applications open I'm happy
[12:05] <zmoylan-pi> and if i need games i can fire up c64 emulator on my dumbphone... :-)
[12:06] <ali1234> as a webdev don't you need to run firefox and chrome? and flash and html5 video? raspberry pi sucks at all these things
[12:06] <diddledan> video would be a requirement
[12:06] <diddledan> flash less so
[12:06] <diddledan> nobody does flash these days
[12:07] <ali1234> fair enough. basically youtube doesn't work very well on the pi
[12:07] <zmoylan-pi> malware writers... :-P
[12:07] <diddledan> zmoylan-pi: aye
[12:08] <diddledan> several flash-installer-mimics have targeted the mac recently because they can't figure out how else to get into the OS
[12:08] <daftykins> cor a motherboard doing the download of a BIOS update for you - what a brave new world
[12:08] <diddledan> daftykins: :-o
[12:08] <diddledan> daftykins: don't pull the plug!
[12:08] <zmoylan-pi> next version will have pics of kittens in the bios to show while you wait... :-)
[12:08] <diddledan> daftykins: it's erased the BIOS ROM and is flashing direct from the download :-p
[12:09] <daftykins> :D
[12:09] <daftykins> ah no it downloaded cats from imgur instead!
[12:09] <diddledan> pull the ethernet and you'll get a corrupt flash :-p
[12:09] <zmoylan-pi> biosKittens(tm)
[12:09] <daftykins> *POST screen of cat in a PC case*
[12:09] <diddledan> hopefully guernsytelecom aren't going to blip
[12:09] <daftykins> :D
[12:09] <daftykins> amusingly it was indeed once called that
[12:10] <diddledan> GT or GiT for binary types
[12:10] <daftykins> Cable and Wireless bought it, then a while back a Bahraini guy bought it from them
[12:10] <diddledan> yey?
[12:11] <diddledan> all your internets are routed through the UAE
[12:11] <daftykins> hmm not bad for an open air setup noise wise with the stock intel heatsink and fan setup
[12:11] <zmoylan-pi> just so you have no idea who owns/fiddles with your wires...
[12:11] <diddledan> the stock intel heatsink+fan is quite good these days
[12:11] <diddledan> AMD still haven't got the memo though
[12:11] <daftykins> i used the one on the core 2 quad back in 2007 as well, they do just dandy :>
[12:12] <daftykins> just gotta sit and play with the rotating corners to be sure it's in 'stay down' mode
[12:12] <diddledan> aye
[12:12] <diddledan> I quite like those for ease of install, but you have to be sure your pegs are through the board before you push the plunger
[12:13] <daftykins> *nod*
[12:13] <daftykins> i didn't even bother cleaning it up and using my premium arctic silver
[12:13] <diddledan> :-o
[12:15] <daftykins> now i play the waiting game for when new graphics cards are announced, June or Julyish
[12:16] <zmoylan-pi> and then released in november in time to heat your house... :-)
[12:16] <diddledan> \o/
[12:16] <daftykins> ^_^
[12:16] <daftykins> nah i think they'll be out late July, talk is they're only releasing the mid-range first, top end at the end of the year
[12:17] <daftykins> this is the first time since 2010 that the manufacturing process is being reduced since the old 28nm standard in GPUs, so moving to 16nm or lower will be a huge change in efficiency
[12:46] <diddledan> when do we get picometers?
[12:46] <daftykins> doubt that'll happen in our lifetime
[12:47] <zmoylan-pi> as soon as you give up feet and inches...?
[12:47] <diddledan> my feet don't smell, so I don't need to get rid of them yet
[12:47] <daftykins> me and diddledan sorely need our feet to insert into our mouths on regular occasion, eh dan?
[12:47] <diddledan> heck yeah!
[12:48] <diddledan> shouldn't that be "diddledan and I" though :-p
[12:48] <zmoylan-pi> captain pedantic to the rescue...
[12:48] <diddledan> \o/
[12:48] <daftykins> talks proper like wot i does
[12:49] <daftykins> that's one of the subtler nuances of the lingo i never quite understood the need for :(
[12:49] <zmoylan-pi> dat's not proper
[12:49] <daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/s/5uviwm78kqd30en/IMG_20160413_134814.jpg?dl=0
[12:49] <diddledan> thee and me
[12:49] <daftykins> poor old setup, parts pinched
[12:49]  * diddledan pinches some parts unseen
[12:50] <daftykins> i'm informed a new surface pro 4 has arrived at a clients ready for prodding
[12:50] <diddledan> fondleslab!
[12:51] <daftykins> can't say i hold much hope of it solving the last ones surprises
[12:52] <daftykins> diddledan: i've changed my mind, your site pic needs to turn into an HTML5 video of you enacting a cheesy welcome
[12:52] <daftykins> during which you don the hat!
[12:53] <daftykins> this is gold.
[12:53] <diddledan> full-HD
[12:53] <diddledan> autoplay and autorepeat
[12:53] <daftykins> yep, auto max volume
[12:55] <diddledan> several different prompts for video-player installs, too
[12:55] <diddledan> or. I should do it with JAVA
[12:55] <diddledan> complete with a rippling water effect
[14:21] <foobarry> anyone used berkeley DB?
[15:12] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[15:12] <daftykins> \o howdy
[15:14]  * diddledan checks what time it is in UGT. yep. good morning.
[15:15] <diddledan> boiler man says my boiler is 96% efficient
[15:16] <daftykins> diddledan: did he turn it back on again after? *ba-dum-tish*
[15:17]  * diddledan sucks-in a sharp breath
[15:17] <diddledan> ooh that's harsh!
[15:17] <diddledan> how very dare thee
[15:18] <daftykins> :D
[15:18] <daftykins> what's your fuel type?
[15:18] <daftykins> i have one o' them gas condensing boilers
[15:19] <daftykins> the guernsey supply runs on LPG though which pales in comparison to the UK gas supply
[15:19] <diddledan> gas
[15:19] <diddledan> that's all I know
[15:19] <daftykins> ah har
[15:32] <diddledan> anyone seen this? http://perl11.org/ turns out perl isn't dead
[15:33] <diddledan> I can't figure out where that leaves the unreleased perl6
[15:33] <diddledan> I'm wondering if it's gonna go the same way as PHP6
[16:04] <diddledan> https://youtu.be/hNjX_WX2y8A
[16:07] <ali1234> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG2Nl2D-i8c (NSFW)
[16:10] <diddledan> lol
[16:18] <diddledan> lol: https://twitter.com/JoeRessington/status/720284913698783232
[20:50] <diddledan> what's up with freenode right now?
[20:50] <diddledan> splitters!
[20:50] <daftykins> it's FOSS
[20:50] <daftykins> ;D
[20:52] <diddledan> foreign online shaky servers?
[20:53] <diddledan> (I couldn't think of anything more witty)
[20:53] <diddledan> offline might be better
[20:54] <daftykins> :D
[21:34] <zmoylan-pi> probably a loose cat5 cable somewhere...
[21:36] <daftykins> 5 yep, telephone spec
[21:36] <daftykins> :D
[21:36] <zmoylan-pi> or someone tripped over a coax network cable somewhere...
[21:39] <daftykins> some little scamp poked a staple in and ran off
[21:39]  * daftykins glances at diddledan
[21:39] <diddledan> <.<
[21:39] <diddledan> >.>
[21:39] <diddledan> -.-
[21:40] <zmoylan-pi> nailing network cables to wall.  such a beneficial work creation scheme
[21:40] <diddledan> just reboobed into windas. iTunes really want to sell start warts
[21:40] <daftykins> you mean it didn't need updating first?
[21:41] <diddledan> nuppers
[21:41] <zmoylan-pi> all of windows is trying to update probably...
[21:42] <daftykins> what irks me a bit about you saying that is Loonix updates more frequently and less consistently :)
[21:42] <diddledan> wait, do people even use looknocks these days?
[21:43] <zmoylan-pi> at least i can keep using an updating linux system while it updates
[21:43] <diddledan> this year will be the year of Windows on the desktop, finally
[21:44] <daftykins> err, i've never found that you can't
[21:45] <zmoylan-pi> on windows you start up or shut down and updates are been installed. and necessary updates stop the whole show till they are done
[21:46] <zmoylan-pi> or is that just a vista thing
[21:46] <daftykins> only if it's on auto and you're an end user that doesn't do them when you're supposed to i'd say
[21:47] <daftykins> it's folks that fight it and then eventually click the wrong thing in frustration that then get delayed from what they were doing 'cause they didn't take the time out :)