[01:03] <LisaNori1> Curious, I keep reading about ubuntu for smartphones "coming soon", but don't bugs such as #1068994 (button 1 gets stuck) and #1091663 (3G nonfunctional) kinda hamper this?  Or are these only a problem on a nexus7 and not on nexus4?
[01:27] <infinity> LisaNori1: "soon" isn't tomorrow.
[01:27] <infinity> LisaNori1: http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2013/02/06/ubuntu-smartphone-shipping-in-october/
[01:27] <infinity> LisaNori1: But, also, some of those bugs don't apply to the phone product, no.
[01:27] <LisaNori1> I understand.  I was just curious and trying to clarify my understanding.
[02:40] <reb> I have an ARM Chromebook running Ubuntu 12.04.  "apt-get install compizconfig-settings-manager" does not work.  What are my options?
[02:41] <reb> I'm interested in the settings manager in order to turn off the behavior of the "search" key on my Chromebook keyboard.
[02:42] <reb> Possibly I just need some xmodmap magic.
[02:46] <infinity> Are you even sure you're running unity-3d?
[02:46] <infinity> If you have no binary 3d drivers, you're probably not.
[02:46] <infinity> Which means you're not using compiz.
[02:47] <infinity> Which means the regular old gnome keyboar control panel will probably fix you up.
[02:47] <infinity> Or xmodmap, yes.
[02:51] <ptl> is this the new samsung chromebook with ARM A15?
[02:55] <infinity> I assume that's what's being referred to, yes.
[02:55] <infinity> And we don't have 3d drivers for it, that I know of.
[02:55] <infinity> So, it's likely not running compiz. :P
[04:31] <ashes> i'd like to be able to plug my laptop in to my arm box with usb, and have the arm box show up as a hdd, like tablets and phones do. what do i need to read about?
[06:00] <swjh> where is the kernel .config file on ubuntu-server 12.04?
[07:27] <dholbach> good morning
[08:10] <tripelb> <woman with nexus7 seeks Ubuntu dual boot for pleasure and learning. Any race creed or age.
[08:14] <dholbach> tripelb, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7/Installation#Having_both_Android_and_Ubuntu_installed_for_dual_boot
[13:48] <ogra_> bug #1109197
[13:48] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1109197 in ac100-tarball-installer (Ubuntu) "fails to preserve mtimes" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1109197
[15:15]  * xnox ponders about fastboot in main
[16:13] <ppisati> robclark: hi, back then you pointed me to some patches to make the pvr-omap module work with upstream kernel
[16:14] <ppisati> robclark: do you know if 1) 3.8/3.9 + your patches will work?
[16:14] <ppisati> robclark: 2) can you remind me where those patches are (can't find it right now)
[16:20] <lupus_> how far ubuntu arm is from running on samsung and nexus tablets?
[16:21] <ogra_> we have an image for the nexus7
[16:21] <ogra_> no samsung not nx10
[16:21] <lupus_> :/
[16:22] <lupus_> Samsung note 10.1 here... would love to run ubuntu on this beast
[16:22] <ogra_> well, we kind of rely on having an unlockable fastboot on the device
[16:23] <ogra_> which binds us to nexus and probably asus atm
[16:23] <lupus_> yeah
[16:23] <ogra_> additionally you need working GLES Xorg drivers ....
[16:24] <lupus_> How well the nexus 7 works?
[16:24] <ogra_> mali doesnt have any that are licensed in a way we could distribute ...
[16:24] <ogra_> well, unity isnt a tablet UI at all ...
[16:24] <ogra_> beyond that fact it works quite well i'd say
[16:25] <shadeslayer> there's a meeting going on about that right now isn't there?
[16:26] <ogra_> yes
[16:26] <ogra_> in #ubuntu-meeting
[16:26] <ogra_> every friday at this time
[16:26] <shadeslayer> and I pretty much forget every friday :(
[16:26] <lupus_> well ill hope that linux would hit arm cpus, really like these silent machines
[16:27] <ogra_> ubuntu runs on arm machines since several years :)
[16:27] <ogra_> just not on many enduser devices yet, we're just starting with the nexus7
[16:27] <lupus_> yeah but like all of them, tablets etc :)
[16:27] <lupus_> heh
[16:28] <shadeslayer> without unlocked bootloaders and GPU drivers, that will be hard
[16:28] <ogra_> right, it ios limited to usable HW
[16:28] <shadeslayer> there's another tablet that I've heard about, the Archos 101XS Gen 10
[16:28] <lupus_> i had huge troubles with acer s3-931 laptop, uefi and ubuntu.. hate that new uefi boot
[16:29] <shadeslayer> has an OMAP 4470 SoC ... and has linux GPU drivers
[16:29] <robclark> ppisati, I think ndec would know if there is some activity for pvr, etc, on 3.8..
[16:30] <robclark> shadeslayer, 4470 has android support.. not so much linux support tho, unfortunately.. a pity b/c x11 would do well with the 2d core
[16:30] <ppisati> ndec: ^
[16:30] <ppisati> ndec2: ^
[16:30] <lupus_> hey, does the arm version of ubuntu have the same features than normal ubuntu?
[16:30] <shadeslayer> lupus_: mostly, there's loads of stuff that doesn't compile with GLES so it's disabled
[16:30] <ppisati> robclark: in the mean time, can you remind me where those patches are?
[16:31] <shadeslayer> well .. maybe 'loads' is the wrong word here
[16:32] <lupus_> android lacks real multitasking, so thats the main reason why i would love to have ubuntu on tablet
[16:32] <robclark> ppisati, on dev.omapzoom.org, there should be a ubuntu kernel tree.. look for the 1488 (iirc) branch.. that should be close enough to get started
[16:32]  * robclark just heading out the door
[16:33] <ogra_> xnox, well, the spike persists quite long
[16:33] <ogra_> but anacron is indeed a good guess
[16:33]  * ogra_ didnt think about that before
[16:33] <ogra_> i was suspecting apport or whoosie ... but then i couldnt see any spiking when watching them
[16:33] <xnox> ogra_: apt-xapian can take a while on arm ;-)
[16:33] <ogra_> *whoopsie
[16:34] <ogra_> xnox, do we run it on every boot ?
[16:34] <ogra_> i thought thats only run at install time
[16:34] <xnox> well after the initial flash it is your first boot ever so I expect everything to run.
[16:34] <xnox> ah true, it is at install time.... unless timestamps are off =/
[16:35] <ogra_> right
[16:35] <ogra_> for me it happens on every boot
[16:35] <ogra_> the desktop is fine after a few minutes ... but initially it spikes to 600M
[16:40] <ppisati> robclark: ok, should be this one - https://github.com/robclark/kernel-omap4/commits/pvr
[16:40] <ppisati> iirc
[16:40] <shadeslayer> robclark: oh
[16:41] <shadeslayer> robclark: from what I was told ( and from what I see on gitorious ) the kernel works fine
[16:41] <shadeslayer> https://gitorious.org/archos/archos-gpl-gen10/blobs/master/Readme.txt && https://gitorious.org/archos/archos-gpl-gen9-kernel
[16:42] <shadeslayer> anyway, arm stuff is so fiddly :(
[17:06] <hrw> shadeslayer: problem with kernels for arm devices is that most of them totally ignore mainline.
[17:21] <robclark> shadeslayer, yeah, kernel should work fine for *android*.. getting it working w/ linux and gfx accel, etc, will probably not be straightforward
[23:12] <ptl> any of you guys know why I can't write on my MTD recovery partition without byte differences? I tried dd, flash_image and even tried a statically-compiled ddrescue to write it!!! log here: http://pastebin.com/xhRDazn8


[15:04] <keesj> How do I get the right libnih for the 0.5 branch?
[15:04] <keesj> *in bzr*
[15:07] <Keybuk> bzr checkout -r tag:upstart-x.y.z libnih
[15:07] <Keybuk> is 0.5.0 or 0.5.1, etc.
[15:09] <keesj> thanks
[15:35] <keesj> Keybuk: sorry I just subscribed you to my upstart branch and I don't know yet how to undo that
[22:55] <sadmac> Keybuk: around?


[05:58] <mlankhorst> morning
[06:19] <RAOF> Hi, yo.
[06:25] <mlankhorst> RAOF: did you get anywhere with -core?
[06:26] <RAOF> mlankhorst: Yup. Pushed a patch to lightdm to add that; we can drop 100_rethrow_signals
[06:34] <mlankhorst> perfect
[06:35] <mlankhorst> feel free to upload server-core then, I should probably update intel to 20.1 first and then the rest needd
[06:35] <mlankhorst> needs xorg-server-core >= 13rc1 for building
[06:48] <RAOF> mlankhorst: Will do.
[06:58] <mlankhorst> RAOF: ok intel updated to 2.20.1 :-)
[06:58] <mlankhorst> want a copy of all the *.orig.tar.gz I have?
[07:02] <RAOF> Eh.
[07:02] <RAOF> I'm happy to uscan --download-current-version.
[07:02] <RAOF> Of course, I'm *also* happy to accept git repositories with pristine-tar branches, so git-buildpackage Just Works™ ;(
[07:02] <RAOF> :)
[07:03] <mlankhorst> optimist :P
[07:04] <RAOF> Ah.
[07:04] <mlankhorst> RAOF: but openchrome needs love, there was already a openchrome 0.3.0 in hardy which might have been optimistically numbered like that
[07:08] <mlankhorst> ok pushed cirrus to 1.5.1, seems a new release was amde in the last time I looked with the build fix
[07:09] <RAOF> We also need to update the proto first, right? We don't have the necessary proto in quantal or -proposed yet?
[07:10] <mlankhorst> probably I think some were pushed
[07:10] <mlankhorst> x11proto-dri2, x11proto-gl, x11proto-randr
[07:11] <mlankhorst> dri2 needs 2.8
[07:11] <mlankhorst> gl 1.4.16
[07:11] <RAOF> Ah, and a bunch of them are in Debian experimental, and can be syncd. But that needs me to manually flick the switch.
[07:11] <mlankhorst> randr 1.4.0
[07:12] <RAOF> dri2 hasn't been updated in Debian yet, but that can be done.
[07:12] <mlankhorst> rest I'm unsure about, those were the ones I encountered at least :-)
[07:12] <jcristau> i can probably push dri2proto to experimental if that helps
[07:13] <mlankhorst> sure
[07:13] <mlankhorst> I bumped all the standards-versions to 3.9.3 too mostly
[07:13] <RAOF> Oh, *arse*. We've got some ungodly x11proto-randr version from 2010 that claims to be 1.4
[07:14] <jcristau> that + should have been a ~
[07:14] <mlankhorst> yeah it's fun
[07:14] <RAOF> Yup
[07:15] <mlankhorst> openchrome has the same issue with hardy
[07:15] <jcristau> i uploaded it as <IP_ADDRESS> at the time to avoid just this :)
[07:15] <RAOF> Time for a sourceful upload of Debian syncage!
[07:15] <jcristau> mlankhorst: hmm?  xserver-xorg-video-openchrome | 1:0.2.901-0ubuntu4 |         hardy | source, amd64, i386
[07:16] <mlankhorst> jcristau: launchpad refused 0.3.0 though
[07:17] <mlankhorst> jcristau: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/i386/xserver-xorg-video-openchrome/0.3.0-0ubuntu2
[07:17] <RAOF> Yeah, that's the epoch.
[07:17] <mlankhorst> so you need to fudge around with that one to make it work
[07:17] <jcristau> ah, yeah, ok.
[07:18] <jcristau> just wait for 0.3.1 :p
[07:18] <jcristau> shouldn't take more than a year
[07:18] <mlankhorst> or just call it fakesync1 and append that to orig.tar.gz
[07:19] <mlankhorst> nobody said it would have to be because of debian a fakesync is required >:D
[07:19] <jcristau> heh
[07:21] <mlankhorst> but yeah the mess with openchrome was worse in multiple ways. I did get it to switch from git-svn to git though.
[07:42] <RAOF> jcristau: Pushing dri2proto to experimental *would* help a bit; you still up for it?
[07:43] <jcristau> RAOF: yeah, looking at it now, see #d-x :)
[08:44] <ricotz> mlankhorst, hi, is 1.13rc2 suppose to land in quantal this week?
[08:45] <mlankhorst> think so
[08:45] <ricotz> i see :)
[08:46] <ricotz> is there already any news about any compatible nvidia blob?
[08:46] <mlankhorst> nah it tends to lag behind
[08:47] <ricotz> i know, aaronp mention 304.x is suppose to get support
[08:47] <mlankhorst> no prime though :p
[08:48] <ricotz> but uploading 1.13 will break for quite some people with a new one
[08:48] <mlankhorst> but maybe those changes will finally force nvidia to coexist with other drivers
[08:48] <ricotz> *without
[08:49] <ricotz> maybe
[08:58] <mlankhorst> yeah you're right, it most likely stays crap :p
[09:01] <ricotz> but way better than fglrx ;P
[09:01] <mlankhorst> I don't know if I want to word it like that
[09:01] <jcristau> ricotz: like that's hard
[09:02] <mlankhorst> any bets on whether fglrx will have something before the Q release that's compatible?
[09:02] <mlankhorst> :p
[09:02] <jcristau> mlankhorst: i thought usually they manage to have something a week before the ubuntu release
[09:03] <ricotz> hehe
[09:05] <mlankhorst> but with s3tc package installed I'm getting more luck with r600 nowadays
[10:28] <mlankhorst> RAOF: how is uploading going?
[11:42] <RAOF> mlankhorst: It's not really, at the moment :)
[11:43] <RAOF> mlankhorst: Got as far as the proto stuff, and then had to go to pilates, have dinner, etc ;)
[11:43] <mlankhorst> ok, I'm just taking a closer look at the precise x server, see if I can fix that issue or if it it's too much work :)
[11:45] <mlankhorst> just noticed I forgot to kill a patch that was upstream so uploaded that fix
[12:04] <RAOF> I'll finish off 1.13 uploading tomorrow.
[12:06] <mlankhorst> wow, first time in all my messing with X that I've seen the failsafe-X screen ;)
[12:09] <mlankhorst> RAOF: Yeah I just realized I should check if the gimp bug is also in x1.13 before I try to diagnose it further. Might safe me some work if it turns out to be a bug in upstream too.
[12:23] <mlankhorst> aw unfortunately it works
[12:51] <mlankhorst> RAOF: hm should I just drop it? The same patches work on x1.12, so likely it's caused by our weird backported input stack
[12:51] <mlankhorst> and x1.13 with gimp worked fine too


[00:49] <holstein> and, if its literally, just me and zequence voting you in, OvenWerks, and, we determine when the next vote is, thats fine with me
[00:50] <holstein> i think aiming for a normal type of community, like the others, is not a bad goal
[03:50] <OvenWerks> holstein: Honestly, I think there are more people around than just us three :)
[07:25] <zequence> Sure, there are. But, there aren't that many possible candidates.
[07:26] <zequence> If anyone can think of someone, who could/should/would be interested, now is the time to talk to that someone, and that someone will have time to prepare.
[07:27] <zequence> Actually, it may be good to have a vote a few months before I pass it on, so that there's time for that someone to learn what is needed.
[07:27] <zequence> Like, three months before. January, in other words. I'll mention it on the mail list.
[07:56]  * DalekSec votes for himself, just to be a horrible person.
[07:57] <astraljava> As if you'd be the first candidate ever to do that. :D
[09:24] <zequence> cub, we can still add it after feature freeze, though we shouldn't. But, perhaps it can wait until the next LTS?
[10:12] <cub> zequence, Plume Creator, waiting until the LTS we might also be able to include the re-coded 2.0 version.
[10:17] <zequence> cub: Yeah, that's what I thought too.
[10:18] <zequence> Also, we have more time to figure out -writing, or whatever.
[10:18] <cub> yup
[10:30] <cub> As for Project Lead candidates, I was having high hopes when I started trying to contribute. However as you all know, I haven't had much time to actually do so. It would be sad to see the distro fading away entirely due to noone having the time to run it. Then again, it will do just that without people dedicating their free time volunteering.
[10:38] <astraljava> I concur, cub, and am pondering heavily on whether to volunteer as a "lay-over" leader if no one else shows up. For the time being, I don't really have any clear visions on where to take the flavor to, but at least to keep the wheels rolling would be something. This has, after all, a very soft spot in my heart after all these years. :)
[10:45] <cub> I had and have ideas, but without being able to commit to the time involved it won't do anyone any good
[10:47] <zequence> If we have at least one developer who can do packaging, and is committed for 2 years, then the lead does not need to be a champion at that.
[10:47] <zequence> Currently, I'm the only one with upload rights. And, I will be available in the future for doing that, even though I think developers here should strive to get upload rights themselves.
[10:48] <zequence> OvenWerks is capable of packagin, so if he would commit to two years, no matter being lead or not, then the lead could focus more on other things.
[10:48] <zequence> I think astraljava has some idea on how to do that too.
[10:49] <zequence> But, again, neither has upload rights, so they always need to ask someone else to do the uploads.
[10:50] <zequence> None of us is a master at it though. And, that is a bit of a problem actually. There is always a danger that someone does something weird, or against packaging policy (Debian Policy)
[10:50] <cub> in an ideal set up the project lead could "just" lead, but with a small team it proves to be necessary to get your hands dirty so to speak. Also because it's easier when you know how to make things happen within Ubuntu and upstream
[10:52] <zequence> I'm thinking, whoever is elected will have the chance to learn all about the structure in the three months before taking over. I would put some effort into that. So, that's actually not a big, big problem.
[10:53] <zequence> So, the candidate could be someone from outside, someone who knows about maintaining a Linux distro, but not Ubuntu Studio, or any other Ubuntu flavor specifically.
[10:53] <zequence> Or, at least has some experience in software development.
[10:57] <cub> yes, but someone with the time to do that for the three months as well
[11:01] <zequence> Of course.
[11:02] <zequence> I'm thinking of people like the AVLinux guy, or falktx, or whoever, if there is any kind of interest.
[11:03] <zequence> They are sufficiently active, but it is not certain that their mind sets are good for the project. But, that is what the voters will have to determine.
[11:06] <cub> yes, that's why I added a note about getting some thoughts from the future PL on where and how Ubuntu Studio is going. There's a reason some start their own distributions as they don't want a team around to meddle with things
[11:07] <zequence> Yep
[11:16] <astraljava> zequence: Yes, from the skillset POV, I am not worried. It's more about having enough time to think about where to drive the flavor, and how to do that.
[12:38] <zequence> I'm new to this https://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/menu.html/ch3.html
[12:38] <zequence> scribus doesn't have a desktop file, but it does have a menu file, which goes in /usr/share/menu/&
[12:38] <zequence> scribus doesn't have a desktop file, but it does have a menu file, which goes in /usr/share/menu/
[12:39] <zequence> doesn't show up in our menu though
[12:41] <OvenWerks> Has scribus dropped the desktop file since 14.04 then? It had a desktop file then.
[12:43] <zequence> I guess so
[12:44] <zequence> I'm sure the command "update-menus" rings a bell. You see it sometimes during package installation.
[12:44] <zequence> Though, I can't find what it belongs to, and how to run it.
[12:45] <astraljava> I seem to recall some similar issues back in the day, can look into it tomorrow to ring some bells.
[12:46] <zequence> There's a package called menu
[12:54] <zequence> I'm assuming you still need a desktop file.
[13:09] <zequence> Well, other packages that have menu files also has a desktop file, so I'm going to assume scribus is missing one. Reporting a bug
[13:19] <zequence> If someone would like to double check, on wily...
[13:19] <zequence> bug 1487031
[13:22] <zequence> OvenWerks: If you would like to pursue upload rights, I will back you, btw. Would be about time you became an Ubuntu member as well.
[15:46] <holstein> OvenWerks: i agree.. i think there are more folks that would be interested in attending a meeting
[15:46] <holstein> i say, we literally just copy what the other teams do..
[15:46] <holstein> especially, xubuntu
[16:05] <zequence> scribus is fixed in Debian, but there's a problem with getting the fix downstream. I'm sure it will be fixed one way or another soonish.
[16:07] <zequence> holstein: There is a discussion going on the mail list about this, so if you want to add your thoughts about it, please do
[16:08] <holstein> zequence: sure.. and i waill
[16:08] <holstein> will*
[16:08] <holstein> zequence: unless, you are saying, i *shouldnt* say something here, i'll do both
[16:08] <holstein> i mean, thats the trick.. we will need to have the meetings here, on the IRC
[16:08] <holstein> the vote.. etc..
[16:24] <zequence> Why is IRC better than the mail list?
[16:25] <zequence> For one thing, it is pretty hard to get everyone to attend
[16:25] <zequence> We already have this channel, where we can discuss things
[16:25] <zequence> What's going to happen if we have a meeting, that won't happen on the mail list?
[16:26] <zequence> holstein: mean, what is it that you feel will happen during a meeting that can't happen on the mail list?
[16:37] <cub> a more rapid discussion which might be easier to follow, I think. But then there is the issue with finding a good time for it with time zones, work times etc
[16:38] <cub> but Xubuntu also do mail list voting and decisions
[16:39] <zequence> I just think that if someone has any ideas, or objections to someone elses ideas, it is easy enough to write about it on the mail list
[16:39] <zequence> Usually, I find, not many have opinions anyway, so the meeting becomes more of a coffee and donuts gathering.
[16:40] <zequence> Probably good for team bonding, or something, and I'm probably not very sensitive to that.
[16:40] <cub> yeah, but when a couple of others then have a few questions and/or comments to different parts of that email it quickly gets complicated
[16:40] <zequence> It's important to record stuff on the wiki, which is what I'm doing with the discussions we have now
[16:41] <cub> but back to the question on if there would be a vote, who would vote?
[16:41] <zequence> If you want, you can just hang back until there's a proposal, and then read the wiki to see if you like it or not
[16:41] <cub> the team is loosely gathered unless you would just count the Core team
[16:42] <zequence> I think anyone who is involved in one of the moderated or restricted teams should be allowed to vote
[16:42] <zequence> And, I as I mentioned in the mail list, I can make sure everyone of those are members of -contributor
[16:42] <zequence> That way, we can just say, members of -contributor are allowed to vote
[16:44] <cub> I think that is a good idea.
[16:49] <cub> so what is the best way to put the 15.10 iso to an usb nowadays? My experience with dd or disc creator is random at best
[16:49] <zequence> dd always works for me
[16:49] <zequence> I haven't been using anything else for a good while
[16:49] <cub> about half the times it won't boot for me
[16:50] <zequence> I wouldn't blame dd
[16:50] <zequence> Don't think anything is as straight forward
[16:50] <zequence> And, don't think anything else does some sort of error checking
[16:52] <holstein> zequence: irc is in realtime.. and, its easy.. there is a barrier for *all* things
[16:53] <holstein> i mean, we could meet, and argue doing meetings via something like skype, or google hangouts.. but, the upstream ubuntu community provides a room for meetings in irc, that logs the meetings, etc
[16:53] <holstein> its just easy for us to take advantage of that
[16:54] <holstein> its easier than crowd-sourcing all the aspects, and, having one person dictate the terms.. we literally vote on everything.. copy paste the xubuntu setup to a wiki page agenda.. everything is a bullet point
[16:55] <holstein> we show up, and vote.. in the ubuntu community team meeting channel.. everyone gets say-so.. and can add points to the agenda.. and, the agenda is up, and anyone can add a point to it
[16:55] <cub> anyone installed 1510 to actual harddrive yet? I only have one laptop and is a bit nervous as to break the boot or grub
[16:55] <holstein> any community member can vote.. we could say, "in order to vote, please sign the COC,.. etc
[16:55] <zequence> cub: I have
[16:56] <cub> great, I'll set it up then
[16:57] <cub> Sadly, I only find myself with some time today since my daughter is home with a fever. She's quite happy to hang around in the sofa with a book or ipad then
[16:59] <holstein> what happens here, in realtime, that doenst happen on the list is, realtime collaboration.. and voting.. "next point of order, team lead term.. option 1, 2 years, option 2, 6 months.. !vote"
[16:59] <holstein> thats what we cant do ^.. on the email, it just bounces around, and someone dictates a decision
[17:01] <holstein> zequence: i feel, you are just saying, you dont want to have a meeting like the other communities do.. *all* of the other communities, and teams.. why?
[17:01] <holstein> zequence: why are you opposed to having a normal meeting time? and terms that all community members vote on?
[17:02] <holstein> it would be like that, similarly, in the future.. "next point - publication menu section discussion".. then, voting on things, and getting things done
[17:02] <holstein> the channel that is provided for us to use logging the decisions, and, the tasks.. etc
[17:02] <cub> Jono Bacon favour Google Hangout or Freenode for meetings, but sure that's only one suggestion
[17:03] <cub> holstein, one of the difficulties with an online meeting is the time schedule to allow for as many as possible to participate
[17:03] <holstein> cub: sure.. and *all* other teams deal with that
[17:03] <cub> other than that, I also prefer "live" meetings for some thigns
[17:03] <holstein> what do you do? vote on the meeting times.. absentee voting?
[17:03] <holstein> read the official logs
[17:03] <holstein> *nothing* cant be addressed..
[17:03] <cub> I think Xubuntu have a log for absentee voting
[17:03] <holstein> yup ^
[17:04] <holstein> we just literallly copy paste what xubuntu has, and have a meeting to vote on all of those as bullet points
[17:04] <cub> though that also means you vote in advance and can't take into account stuff that might come up in the discussion
[17:04] <holstein> allowing folks to add whatever they want to it.. or, options..
[17:05] <zequence> holstein: While you say all this, I am preparing a wiki page of what is being discussed on the mail list.
[17:05] <holstein> theres no perfect solution.. but, if we have a meeting, and you show up, you vote, and get say-so..
[17:05] <cub> How about you for nomination holstein ? You've been around for a long time
[17:05] <zequence> holstein: No one is dictating anything.
[17:05] <holstein> zequence: lol
[17:05] <holstein> zequence: the team lead position its self has been dictated for literally 6 years, or, as long as ive been here
[17:06] <holstein> zequence: we have no community meetings.. or, community outlet for input.. im not stating anything but facts
[17:06] <cub> well there isn't much of a community
[17:06] <zequence> that's total bullshit
[17:06] <holstein> folks have nothing to join, here.. its just not the same as the other communities.. and, i for one, would just like to try implementing
[17:06] <holstein> zequence: its not..
[17:07] <holstein> zequence: it was dicated to me.. and the rest of the community.. and, thats fine
[17:07] <holstein> im not asking for changes retroactively.. or oppologies.. just, that we try and emulate the other teams, going forward
[17:07] <holstein> try having meetings.., letting folks vote, and accept tasks..
[17:08] <zequence> holstein: Guess how many active contributors we had last autumn, actually doing something?
[17:08] <holstein> zequence: sure, and why?
[17:08] <zequence> holstein: Just to make a point
[17:08] <zequence> Give me a number
[17:08] <holstein> zequence: what team are they joining?.. you know?
[17:08] <holstein> i think we can argue chicken or egg there.. but, we can both agree, we have a small team
[17:08] <zequence> 1
[17:08] <cub> 2?
[17:08] <holstein> im only proposing emulating the larger teams..
[17:09] <holstein> there is infrastructure in place to help us..
[17:09] <zequence> For this cycle, we have had a lot more interest, but how many have actually done anything else but discuss?
[17:09] <holstein> zequence: what do they do?
[17:10] <holstein> zequence: you cant show a bullet point, or a vote.. etc.. i mean, are we aruging to *not* emulate al the other teams?
[17:10] <holstein> the ones that are thriving? and growing?
[17:10] <zequence> holstein: What you want is for you to be able to attend meetings and vote for stuff that 1 or 2 other people will have to do
[17:10] <zequence> Are you seeing my point yet?
[17:10] <holstein> zequence: i didnt say that
[17:11] <holstein> the attendees can accept tasks, or, someone can ask for help from upstream, or, on the mailing list.. etc
[17:11] <holstein> i mean, how is this a negative thing? having a team meeting?
[17:12] <holstein> i dont think it would hurt to try having simply monthly meetings.. all things can be voted on.. the meeting time, for example.. if someone wanted to move it
[17:13] <holstein> its not up to 1 or 2 people to do everything, and shouldnt be.. and, thats something that the meetings would facilitate a conversation about
[17:13] <zequence> I'll agree to that the day there are more than 2 active developers
[17:13] <holstein> zequence: yes, but, again, thats *you* dictating
[17:13] <zequence> Well, there are three now, tbh. But, still, a few more than now
[17:13] <zequence> holstein: You are not a developer
[17:14] <holstein> zequence: so
[17:14] <zequence> holstein: You are just here chatting
[17:14] <zequence> What is it that you want us to do?
[17:14] <holstein> im a community member.. offering to assist with infrastructure, and community structure..
[17:14] <cub> well holstein is pitching a good part in the support
[17:15] <holstein> zequence: i am only proposing we try and emulate a team that i would think we can both agree could make for attracting more members
[17:15] <holstein> the xubuntu team
[17:15] <holstein> we literally just copy paste, and vote on the points.. then, we get that as a frame work, but, we have plenty of time for each of the interested parties to review and edit.. and add voting points
[17:16] <zequence> The problem is not about how we communicate. There's more than enough communication going on here
[17:16] <holstein> im not trying to be a developer.. nor, do i intend to be one.. but, that doesnt make my voice less important.. and *that* is why im proposing we are not growing a community
[17:16] <zequence> The problem is in getting people to do some actual work
[17:16] <holstein> zequence: sure.. and, i can agree with that
[17:16] <holstein> zequence: so, we have a meeting, where folks are clearly accepting tasks.. or, accepting the task of asking for help doing something
[17:17] <holstein> just a factual thing that we can point to "you said you would get testers together for the lowlatency kernel for the 16.04 cycle, how is that going?"
[17:17] <holstein> and, we check in.. im propsing simply monthly to start..
[17:17] <holstein> since, i konw we are all busy..
[17:18] <zequence> I'm just now calling out for Beta testers. And I will do that in all our channels, website, etc. Usually, it's me and someone from Xubuntu testing our ISOs
[17:18] <zequence> Don't think a lack of meetings is causing that
[17:18] <holstein> zequence: sure.. and i know, i appreciate that. but, what if we had a team? where, you can just ask someone else to do that? and put that as a bullet point?
[17:19] <holstein> *anyone* can do that..
[17:19] <holstein> you dont need to be emailing.. and, you dont ask for help with it..
[17:19] <holstein> you dont have to be a developer to edit wikis and send emails.. etc.. thats something that i think one of the newer contributors would be excited about taking on
[17:20] <zequence> If you want to fix a hole in a tire, you must first have a tire.
[17:21] <holstein> zequence: lol
[17:21] <holstein> we *have* a tire..
[17:22] <holstein> anyways, i wont send anything to the list til we are in agreement.. as a courtesy
[17:22] <holstein> zequence: i would not mind scheduling time to discuss with you, in particular, and hash this out..
[17:22] <holstein> folks are here, and they are ready for tasks.. they are not being given them..
[17:23] <zequence> That's simply not true
[17:23] <holstein> we happen to have had about 5 strong in this channel over the past few days.. and, thats really all it would take
[17:23] <holstein> zequence: if its not, then, its not.. and no one will come.. and who cares? right?!
[17:23] <holstein> zequence: what is the problem with trying to emulate the xubuntu team?
[17:23] <zequence> I mean, people have already committeds to all sorts of tasks
[17:24] <holstein> right,a nd in the meeting, we can say, "hey, hows that going? do you need help?"
[17:24] <holstein> rather than, 6, 8 months later, kind of half remembering a conversation somewhere.. or whatever
[17:25] <holstein> we have upstream support.. we have lots of help with the xubuntu team, who, im sure would help someone with whatever we would need help with
[17:27] <holstein> im not asking to take anything over. or, away from anyone.. im only asking for open-ness, and, regular meetings. and democratic voting.. and delegation.. etc
[17:28] <holstein> if you want to keep things as they are, and just dictate the team lead to everyone, in the background, and, keep things going as they are, we can surely discuss that..
[17:28] <zequence> I have never said anything else than that we should have a vote
[17:28] <zequence> And, I never discuss anything behind any doors
[17:29] <zequence> ..if it involves the whole team, that is.
[17:29] <holstein> *everything* needs to involve the whole team
[17:29] <zequence> It's all very, very open holstein
[17:30] <zequence> It's like this: you want to do something, you do it, unless someone objects, and then we have a discussion.
[17:30] <holstein> zequence: again, all i can say is, it hasnt been, and there are no meetings for me to attend to vote in.. me, or new members..
[17:30] <zequence> holstein: Just read the damn mail list, and the wiki for information
[17:30] <zequence> It's all there
[17:30] <holstein> im not making things up.. the team lead position has not been voted on, factually, for years..
[17:31] <zequence> I know that, but that is some time ago. And, Scott was not in a position to make a vote happen when he left.
[17:31] <zequence> I was barely able to take over. It was pretty difficult to get things done then
[17:31] <holstein> its not scotts position to do so
[17:31] <zequence> I didn't want to become lead, even
[17:31] <holstein> if its an open community, then, its open.. and it wasnt
[17:31] <zequence> But, there was no other way
[17:32] <holstein> im *glad* you are lead. and think you have done a great job.. im only talking about, the future.. and facts about the past
[17:32] <holstein> a vote would have been the other way..
[17:32] <zequence> There will be a vote, if candidates can be produced.
[17:32] <holstein> we dont even need "candidates".. even if its just OvenWerks ..which is fine.. we *still* vote
[17:33] <holstein> we still have say so, and welcome him, and define the terms.. etc..
[17:34] <zequence> holstein: If you like, we can have meetings over the next cycle, which will be my last. You get to do all the work in preparing for them, but I will at least need to look over the structure and make sure it's in line with how we do things
[17:35] <holstein> zequence: i actually wasnt going to offer to blanketly do "all the work for it", but, i was also going to offer to assist someone else in doing it..
[17:35] <zequence> Oh, then who?
[17:35] <zequence> Me?
[17:35] <holstein> zequence: if i need to, i can.. and, i will make sure you and i are in agreement before i send anything to the list
[17:36] <holstein> zequence: *you* are the one telling me work to do ;) not me telling you
[17:36] <zequence> So far, I think only you feel really strong about it, and maybe cub is leaning your way. So, there's the two of you
[17:37] <zequence> But, perhaps there are more who would be willing on the mail list
[17:37] <holstein> zequence: to be clear, im not asking that you do any preperation work
[17:37] <zequence> Some people come and go.
[17:38] <holstein> i wont send anything surprising that we dont dicuss to the list.. but, think this over, and you can let me know, before i formulate the mail
[17:39] <zequence> You can write whatever you like on the mail list. It's not up to me, you know
[17:39] <holstein> that, we would basically have a meeting, in the official meeting channel.. start a wiki agenda for it, copy past the xubuntu team info, and allow folks to add what they want to it, for voting bullet points..
[17:40] <cub> I support having meetings. But I also understand the point that if only 1 or 2 show up it's not worth the administration around it
[17:40] <holstein> zequence: yes. but, im not interested in crowd-sourcing it there.. for discussion.. id like to have the date worked out, and the agenda up, and folks can edit as they want, prior to meeting, or, ask for the time to be moved, etc..
[17:40] <cub> like myself, I could organise meetings but then something comes up concerning work or family and I will have to bail out. That's even worse than not having meetings
[17:40] <holstein> but, even if its just 2 in the meeting, in the future, and that one person can ask for help with something, thats helpful..
[17:41] <holstein> if the administration is too much, we discuss..
[17:41] <holstein> the channel does most of the work, for the post meeting.. AFAIK.. these days, that helps out a lot
[17:42] <cub> yes when you have learned the irc meeting bot the notes are done when the meeting's done
[17:42] <holstein> we used to have to do it manually :/
[17:42] <cub> but someone need to learn (and remember how to) and then run it every time
[17:42] <zequence> Here's the page for how to vote for a project lead https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ProjectLeadVote
[17:42] <holstein> that was some crazy overhead.. for a team that didnt do much..
[17:43] <holstein> anyways, im back to work here.. its been a real pressure talking with you..
[17:43] <holstein> i mean, pleasure ;)
[17:44] <zequence> I'm mergine the "core" and "developer" sections in the wiki later. Everything that a Ubuntu Studio developer needs to know will be in the "developer" section
[17:44] <cub> haha
[17:44] <cub> perhaps both, holstein
[17:47] <cub> The hard part is to attract more people to contribute. It's a quite narrow field since you need to be interested in open source and sort computers and then music/audio/graphics/video.
[17:47] <cub> It's not like Xubuntu whose targets are everyone
[17:47] <zequence> I think I will be ready with all the stuff that I felt lacked when I started out, just by the time I decide not to do it anymore
[17:47] <zequence> The wiki will be awesome when its finished
[17:48] <zequence> People just need to read it
[17:48] <cub> zequence, really? That is nice though
[17:48] <zequence> You should have seen the wiki when I started.
[17:48] <zequence> There was no structure whatsoever. Not for many years
[17:49] <cub> time to put the kid to bed ...
[17:49] <zequence> cub: Sweet dreams to her
[17:50] <zequence> Could be some folks are deterred from doing this, since they feel they don't have good enough experience of multimedia production
[17:50] <zequence> ..but would otherwise be really good at all of the other stuff, like packaging, and bug fixing
[18:49] <cub> I think many think you need to be a savvy computer geek, excellent coder, know several programming languages, to be able to contribute. There's a hurdle to get over to reach people and make it clear to them that a team need many different skills
[18:50] <cub> It took me a while to get over, even though it's there on the web page you still think "well I'm not a coder so I'm to no use"
[19:26] <holstein> cub: and, i think thats a conversation i would like to have, for sure
[19:27] <holstein> like, are we relevant as a distro? do we need to just make it a "plugin" for any other flavor? i know mate is doing that.. an ubuntu-mate audio editing version, for example
[19:27] <holstein> do we need code contributors?
[19:28] <holstein> we are not even allowed to contribute much into the repos..
[19:28] <holstein> and, thats something else that we could talk about.. going "unofficial" and maintaining a PPA.. basically something like what kxstudio is doing..
[19:29] <holstein> these are the kinds of things we could entertain before anyone starts working on 16.04.. i know cory had come in, and suggested that, which, i actually thought was worth entertaining. but, it was about 5 weeks before the release of one of the versions.. prolly 12.04
[19:31] <cub> I think being an official distro is an advantage, I'm always a bit skeptic about PPAs myself. But it all comes down to having enough people to spin it around
[19:32] <zequence> holstein: I don't think you have a very good understanding of the whole development process, and that is one of the problems I have with a lot of your opinions
[19:33] <zequence> It's not true that we don't have access. Everyone in this world has access to all sources.
[19:33] <cub> there's already the plan or idea of being WM agnostic
[19:33] <zequence> I have upload rights to all Ubuntu Studio packages. Also to all Debian multimedia package sources
[19:33] <holstein> zequence: sure, and why?
[19:33] <holstein> you are  not a MOTU?
[19:34] <zequence> What do you mean why?
[19:34] <holstein> is it just because, we dont have the team in place? or, is it just access to configs? etc
[19:34] <zequence> No, as I said, I have upload rights to all of the Ubuntu Studio packages
[19:34] <holstein> i mean, i dont want just *anyone* uploading into ubuntu.. there are checks in place, for a reason
[19:34] <zequence> At any time, I can upload a new version of any of our packages
[19:34] <holstein> and, if we dont have access to build, and add packages, we dont really need developers
[19:34] <holstein> we certainly dont need a lot of them
[19:35] <holstein> i think, i deally, one of us would be a MOTU, or, even ideally, a paid developer, with our specific interests in mind
[19:35] <cub> with developers we could do much more though
[19:35] <holstein> having a paid developer is quite unlikely, since, even the KDE paid dev is not paid anymore.. and, AFAIK, that was the last of the flavors that had paid development
[19:36] <holstein> but, i dont think we are missing developers.. and, if we get contributors, some of them will likely either be developers, or, interested in development
[19:36] <cub> but otherwise it's more or less just puzzling together what apps to include
[19:36] <holstein> or, they are just musicians, and can ask *others* for assistance, with the specific needs.. like, a liason with debian, or whatever
[19:36] <holstein> it doesnt require coding experience to talk about packages in debian that we get
[19:37] <holstein> zequence: i dont have *any* idea about development, and dont want to
[19:37] <holstein> zequence: im not interested in doing development, and thats not a requiment of being a contributor to the community here.. and i dont think we need to give that impression, or, that its really something we specifically lack
[19:37] <holstein> since, we are not really given the control of the development
[19:38] <holstein> now, as im saying, and generally asking, for discussion, we *could* break off, and do something else, where, we would have more control, and need for developers..
[19:38] <zequence> We ARE IN CONTROL OF DEVELOPMENT
[19:38] <holstein> zequence: please, no caps
[19:38] <holstein> zequence: no caps, no cussing.. less attacking vibe towards me, please.. generally
[19:39] <zequence> We have full control of everything
[19:39] <holstein> im not attacking you. im simply suggesting, that, we really dont have need for developers.. we cant develop an app, and just drop it, willy nilly, in the repos
[19:40] <holstein> if we can, then, why are we not adding falks stuff? the stuff that is being requested that we have? and that folks leave ubuntustudio for kxstudio over?
[19:40] <zequence> As long as we comply with policies, we are able to do what we want and need to do
[19:40] <cub> we could, ubuntustudio-controls is something like that, no?
[19:41] <zequence> Sure, but the best way is to do it in Debian, which has already been under way for many years
[19:41] <zequence> Don't ask me why it hasn't happened yet
[19:41] <holstein> sure. but, who do we ask? and if we have control, we dont have to
[19:41] <holstein> we just stick them in.. lots of folks want them
[19:41] <cub> that's something I have been toying with for a while, why don't we do Debian Studio
[19:42] <zequence> anyone can package falktx packages and put them in either UBuntu or Debian repos
[19:42] <zequence> There's nothing stopping them
[19:42] <cub> but since Jessie is the first Debian that actually worked right away on my laptop I haven't considered it more until now
[19:42] <holstein> i think there is something stopping one of us from dropping them in the ubuntu repo
[19:42] <zequence> holstein: There isnät
[19:42] <holstein> but, if there is not, then, i think we can simply ask falk to do it
[19:42] <zequence> isn't*
[19:42] <zequence> Like I said, you don't seem to know a whole lot about how packaging works
[19:43] <holstein> ok.. so, we do that at the meeting, then, i'll ask falk to assist packing, since, he already does it, and we put them in
[19:43] <holstein> zequence: i dont want to konw, friend..
[19:43] <zequence> falktx doesn't want to package his stuff for Debian
[19:43] <zequence> falktx doesn't want anything to do with either Debian or Ubuntu developers and their policices
[19:43] <zequence> That's at least the impression I have got from him
[19:43] <zequence> He doesn't like rules
[19:43] <cub> If Falk was interested wouldn't he be involved already? I've got the impression he wants to do his own thing
[19:44] <cub> exactly
[19:44] <holstein> well, i'll actually ask him, if we actually have the rights to put them in
[19:44] <zequence> holstein: Anyone can put anything in, as long as it complies with policies
[19:44] <zequence> holstein: That's what free software is all about
[19:45] <zequence> If you don't have upload rights, you need a sponsor. That's all
[19:45] <holstein> sure.. a motu sponsor, correct? the person that *actually* puts the stuff in..
[19:46] <holstein> i get that.. and, thats fine.. but, all i want to do is constructively talk about getting some of the things that i think we can all agree, folks move away from ubuntustudio to get
[19:46] <zequence> But, any package that has a free license should go into Debian. From there it will automatically be imported into Ubuntu
[19:47] <zequence> Folks have strange ideas, and often thanks to people with strange opinions
[19:47] <holstein> or, we can just not do ubuntustudio,a nd assist falk, or make our own PPA's.. if we cant do pro audio within the confines of the policies, which, im not saying we cant, just that, if thats true, we can just stop trying
[19:47] <zequence> Ironically, a lot of people hostile to Ubuntu are people with little or no experience with it
[19:48] <zequence> holstein: I really urge you to put your thoughts down and write an email instead
[19:48] <holstein> well, its fashionable to not like ubuntu..  and, thats something larger than ubuntustudio.. but, when folks go to #ardour, for example, and the major piece of advice is "whatever you do, dont use ubuntustudio", i would like to think about why
[19:48] <zequence> to the mail list, that is
[19:49] <holstein> zequence: ? do you not understand that it would take weeks to have this kind of back and forth?
[19:49] <zequence> There are a lot of things that you are missing about how things really are, and why they are as they are
[19:49] <zequence> It would be good for you to get those things straightened out
[19:49] <holstein> zequence: sure
[19:50] <zequence> I gotta do some family time now. I'll be back tomorrow
[19:51] <cub> g'nite zequence
[19:52] <holstein> cool.. email sent.. reply as you wish..
[20:31] <zequence> holstein: That looked more like trolling, but I
[20:31] <zequence> but I'll answer it anyway
[20:44] <zequence> holstein: Please make sure to read it, and read it well
[20:45] <zequence> You've been around here for I don't know how many years. If you want to discuss development, please do us the courtesy to at least find out how it works
[20:46] <holstein> zequence: have i ever *not* done that?
[20:47] <holstein> zequence: i will read it, and please, no caps, cussing, or ordering me, or anyone to do things.. thanks
[20:47] <holstein> zequence: i enjoy your perspective, but, thats still not really what i was even talking about, which, i will repond to, after i read
[20:47] <holstein> what im getting at is, we dont really need code contributors.. thats all
[20:47] <zequence> How do you know that?
[20:48] <holstein> but, if some come along *great*. but, in the mean time, if we can make it seem as though *anyone* is welcome, since, they are..
[20:48] <zequence> You know that both me and Len are code contributors, right?
[20:48] <zequence> And, in a way, all packages have code in them.
[20:48] <holstein> i mean, if you want to produce a crop of code contributors, thats great.. but, as cub and i were discussing, it may just be musicians that are interested
[20:49] <holstein> and, im not saying you are *not* contributing code.. just that, if we dont atract code contributors, but, just folks to help wtih emails, and with documentation, etc.. that would be helpful
[20:50] <zequence> Do you want to help with PR?
[20:50] <zequence> Cause, I have asked you that before, you know.
[20:50] <holstein> sure, and thats something i can do, and actually do
[20:51] <zequence> That would mean getting us interviews, making posts on social channels, getting people to read about us, and getting them insterested
[20:51] <holstein> right.. and you see me doing that
[20:52] <holstein> developing interest.. and helping folks with installs, converting.. etc..
[20:52] <holstein> but, im not trying to have a "who does more good" talk. i know, i dont do the same level of heavy lifting that you do, and thats fine
[20:52] <holstein> i appreciate all the code contributing folks that help with what makes up our distro
[20:52] <zequence> I'm not talking user support. I'm talking about being responsible of all our social channels, the website, and getting articles for us on different places
[20:53] <zequence> Being active with PR, so that people can read about us
[20:53] <zequence> Also, always have that small sentence somewhere, that we are looking for people to help us out
[20:53] <zequence> I don't have time for that, but I do make posts about it sometimes
[20:53] <holstein> sure, thats soemthing i can do
[20:53] <zequence> And, usually a few people respond
[20:54] <holstein> thats something i try and do constantly. in person.. irc, FB. where ever i feel it makes sense
[20:54] <holstein> i used to bother jono, personally, to try and get him to use US..
[20:54] <zequence> So, please do. Start planning the whole thing. There's a wiki section for PR & Support. Consider it yours
[20:54] <holstein> zequence: i wont
[20:54] <zequence> Do whatever you like.
[20:55] <zequence> Why not?
[20:55] <holstein> zequence: i will, though, bring it up and the meeting, and see if others are ok with me doing so
[20:55] <holstein> otherwise, i will do what i have been doing, and take a look at the wiki
[20:55] <zequence> What do you mean, see if others are ok with you helping us out with PR?
[20:55] <holstein> and, maybe, we can get your input, and others input on what that looks like
[20:55] <holstein> zequence: well, i do PR now
[20:55] <holstein> but, you are saying, you want it a certain way, and that i can "take it over" somehow
[20:56] <zequence> There's no one who has time for that holstein
[20:56] <zequence> This is what I'm talking about
[20:56] <zequence> Either you do something, or you don't. It's up to you
[20:56] <holstein> zequence: righth, and i *alreayd* do
[20:56] <holstein> and you say, its not quite what you are talking about
[20:57] <holstein> but, again, im not saying no.. im just saying, we can define that roll, and look at how xubuntu and others do it, and what they do that works
[20:58] <holstein> maybe, pull in  some of the same info.. i try and help with that FB page, when i have time.. articles used to be easier, when i was on the news team, but, i felt as though i was "Staging" news. just for us to have an article
[20:58] <holstein> also, why are folks not wrting about US? i suppose i took a few steps back, and tried to think about why folks were *not* using the product..
[20:59] <holstein> but, that is the kind of thing that users like me can do, and im not saying no.. and i'll answer and read your email, and look at your wiki page, etc..
[21:00] <zequence> holstein: This is the PR sections https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PublicRelationsDocumentation
[21:00] <zequence> It's a mess. Why? Cause no one is taking charge of it
[21:00] <zequence> And, why not you do that?
[21:01] <zequence> Aside from development, there are only so much you can do. It's "Testing". There's a section about that too
[21:01] <zequence> I mean, there's "Testing"
[21:01] <zequence> PR & Support, though two different things, but kind of go in the same category
[21:02] <zequence> Documentation, which anyone can do. Only developers can do dev docs, though
[21:02] <zequence> And artwork, which you need to be an able artist for
[21:02] <zequence> So, take your pick
[21:02] <zequence> I've always thought of you as the PR guy
[21:14] <zequence> holstein: If you want a bigger community. Meetings. Votes. The best place to start IMO is getting more people involved, and PR is the best weapon for that
[21:52] <OvenWerks> Wow, long talk.
[21:59] <OvenWerks> zequence: holstein: I think doing a distro from the repos is worth while. Running a PPA is already there, in ubuntu, redhat, debian, arch. We don't need to do it again.
[22:00] <OvenWerks> I am getting less excited about something that can be added to any flavour too as I think we have found the sweet spot with xfce. But I am still willing to work in that direction.


[00:34] <newell> bigjools, for implementation of the moving and regenerating the DHCP leases file, that needs to go on the provisioningserver since that is per cluster controller.  However, as far as actually putting stuff into the leases file, this will need to be done on the region since that is where the db and the hostmaps are.  I guess there are a couple ways this could be done.
[00:34] <newell> 1.  We could update the leases file when the formModel is saved for the interface.
[00:34] <newell> 2. Have rpc calls that call the region to then call update_host_maps?
[00:34] <newell> I am thinking (1) is better no?
[01:18] <bigjools> newell: sorry I'm doing too many things at the moment and I need some time to look at your situation
[01:19] <newell> bigjools, no worries, when you get some time is fine.  Appreciate it since I am kinda isolated for implementation reviews at the moment.
[01:24] <bigjools> yeah I understand
[09:22] <jtv> gmb: review done.
[09:23] <gmb> jtv: Thanks


[00:17] <mup> PR core#38 closed: Add another pi-config option <Created by sergey-borovkov> <https://github.com/snapcore/core/pull/38>
[00:17] <mup> PR core#58 closed: use `snapctl internal configure-core` to configure core <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/core/pull/58>
[00:18] <mup> PR core#38 opened: Add another pi-config option <Created by sergey-borovkov> <https://github.com/snapcore/core/pull/38>
[00:18] <mup> PR core#58 opened: use `snapctl internal configure-core` to configure core <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/core/pull/58>
[03:06] <kyrofa> elopio, I suppose you're in bed by now
[03:06] <kyrofa> elopio, but for tomorrow: I've got a problem with the ros2 snapd test: it sits with no output for more than 10 minutes, so Travis kills it thinking it stalled
[03:07] <kyrofa> elopio, do we need to show some sort of output? Even a spinner would probably do it
[03:07] <kyrofa> I'll comment on the PR as well
[06:38] <mup> PR snapcraft#1584 opened: style: use dedent for multiline strings <Created by elopio> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1584>
[06:39] <zyga-ubuntu> good morning
[06:39] <Skip> Join
[06:58] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: hello
[06:58] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: how are you doing?
[07:00] <mvo> hey zyga-ubuntu
[07:00] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: I'm doing well, thank you. tired but well
[07:03] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: what's the outlook on 2.28, shall I allocate some time this week to work on releases?
[07:05] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: I need to talk to cachio but I heard of no failures so far (but I'm behind mail). so it should get released this Monday
[07:06] <zyga-ubuntu> that sounds good
[07:15] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: we need a second review for 3984, then this one can go in. maybe Chipaca can have a look when he is around?
[07:18] <davidcalle> good morning
[07:19] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: thank you for the review on 3971
[07:22] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: ta, #3993 also needs a second review
[07:22] <mup> PR #3993: snap-confine: is_running_on_classic_distribution() looks into os-release <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3993>
[07:22] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: and you did the first one already so 3993 is also someting for Chipaca or pawel
[07:26] <mup> PR snapd#3996 closed: snap: refrain from running filepath.Base on random strings <Created by chipaca> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3996>
[07:34] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: updated https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3971 as requested
[07:34] <mup> PR #3971: interfaces/mount: make Change.Perform testable and test it <Created by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3971>
[07:48] <mup> PR snapd#4000 opened: snap-confine: add new SC_CLEANUP and use it <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4000>
[07:48] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: nice
[07:48] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: I was meaning to do it, thank you for making it faster :)
[07:49] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: still slightly jetlagged so the right level of complexity for me this morning :)
[07:49] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: thanks for approving of it, I was not sure if you would like the macro or not
[07:49] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: tyler recommended it and I think he has a point
[07:49] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: I like it too
[07:50] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: I just noticed my base git branch was old and I did not caught them all, will push a new commit with the remaining ones in a minute or so
[07:50] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: sure, thank you!
[08:07] <kalikiana_> o/
[08:33] <zyga-ubuntu> mvo: is this intentional? https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4000/files/da0c1770f70d42b27c55a0b79c9320f250a46b77..287e8d2f2b2508c8e0e558f92aecfde30b8ce951#r142608335
[08:33] <mup> PR #4000: snap-confine: add new SC_CLEANUP and use it <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4000>
[08:42] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: meh, no, merge conflict error :(
[08:42] <mvo> zyga-ubuntu: sorry for that, fixing
[09:15] <mup> PR snapcraft#1585 opened: lxd: pass SNAPCRAFT_PARTS_URI through into container <Created by kalikiana> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1585>
[09:29]  * __chip__ takes a break
[10:02] <mup> PR snapd#4000 closed: snap-confine: add new SC_CLEANUP and use it <Created by mvo5> <Merged by zyga> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4000>
[10:03] <mup> PR snapcraft#1586 opened: repo: friendly, helpful error for unsupported distros <Created by kalikiana> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1586>
[10:20] <ogra_> xnox, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1721223
[10:20] <mup> Bug #1721223: Networkd fail to set ip address between leases if ip address changes <systemd (Ubuntu):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1721223>
[10:25] <mup> Bug #1721223 opened: Networkd fail to set ip address between leases if ip address changes on UbuntuCore <Snappy:New> <systemd (Ubuntu):New> <systemd (Ubuntu Xenial):New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1721223>
[10:51] <ppisati_> - Mount snap "dragonboard-kernel" (unset) (cannot replace signed kernel snap with an unasserted one)
[10:51] <ppisati_> is there a way to workaround it or do i need to roll a new image from scatch?
[10:52] <ppisati_> ogra_: ^
[10:52] <ogra_> ppisati_, i think this only works if you initially built the image with the kernel as --extra-snap
[10:53] <ogra_> on regular images it is denied
[10:53] <ppisati_> ogra_: i vaguely remember that if you built the image with some cli flags, then you could replace the running kernel snap
[10:53] <ogra_> so if you didnt initially built it like that you will have to build a new one, yes
[10:53] <ppisati_> uhm ok, i'll roll a new image
[11:00] <mup> PR snapcraft#1587 opened: lifecycle: clean after deleting container <Created by kalikiana> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1587>
[11:30] <ppisati_> ogra_: snapdragon image from -edge are broken
[11:32] <ppisati_> ogra_: and is there a way to get the countdown back in uboot? i need to stop by and do a couple of modifications to the live dtb
[11:38] <rogpeppe> i was trying to use a unix-domain socket to connect to a snappy daemon, but it seems that it's not possible. My understanding of this thread (https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/socket-activation-support/2050/12) is that it will be allowed eventually. Anyone know the likely timeline for that?
[11:41]  * sergiusens waves good morning
[11:41] <sergiusens> apol_ I am working on the extract info thing fwiw ;-)
[11:43] <rogpeppe> sergiusens: hiya
[11:43] <rogpeppe> sergiusens: i was wondering about status of unix domain sockets above
[11:43] <rogpeppe> sergiusens: for the time being i've just gone with a localhost tcp port
[11:45] <rogpeppe> sergiusens: (in case you're interested, I published the snap in question to "macaroon" - it's an experimental command line tool for playing with macaroons)
[11:48] <mup> PR snapcraft#1588 opened: lxd: use SUDO_UID for ID mapping <Created by kalikiana> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1588>
[11:50] <sergiusens> rogpeppe socket support is in the snapd domain, someone like Chipaca could provide more information; this topic https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/the-snapd-roadmap/1973 has all the information
[11:50] <sergiusens> on the when's, I suppose since it is under upcoming it means that it is planned for "soon" but not tied to any release yet
[11:51] <rogpeppe> sergiusens: i don't see it under upcoming, but I guess I don't know what topic it counts as
[11:52] <rogpeppe> sergiusens: are "wayland sockets" the same thing as unix sockets?
[11:52] <rogpeppe> sergiusens: (i get "access denied" if I try to follow the topic link)
[11:52]  * kalikiana_ heading out for lunch shortly, back in a bit - getting close to pushing the code from last week to GitHub
[11:53] <kalikiana_> ("having pushed" I guess is the correct tense here, meh, can't English now)
[12:01] <iAmSlow> hi
[12:01] <iAmSlow> where can i check for packages
[12:01] <iAmSlow> is there working visual studio code
[12:01] <iAmSlow> ?
[12:03] <ogra_> ppisati_, oh, in what way ?
[12:04] <ogra_> ppisati_, we'll need to rebuild the gadget with a bootdelay value to get the countdown back, prob is that this breaks with some addon boards that send data over serial as soon as they are powered
[12:10]  * zyga-ubuntu -> afk for a moment, need to get warm tea
[12:17] <apol_> sergiusens: :D awesome
[12:18] <ogra_> iAmSlow, try: "snap info vscode" ;)
[12:18] <iAmSlow> i dont have snap atm, am on void linux
[12:19] <iAmSlow> thats why i asked
[12:20] <ogra_> there is uappexplorer.com as an interim web UI it allows to search for snaps (despite being a tool for the ubuntu phone)
[12:20] <ogra_> a proper web frontend for the store is in the works, not sure where that stands though
[12:22] <davidcalle> ogra_: iAmSlow: https://snapcraft.io/vscode
[12:22] <davidcalle> Still a wip, but it's live ^
[12:22] <ogra_> davidcalle, yeah, but no search iterface yet :)
[12:22] <iAmSlow> ty
[12:22] <ogra_> works if you know the snap name though
[12:23] <iAmSlow> i found on that uappexplorer
[12:23] <ogra_> davidcalle, uh ... "develope website" is a mailto link ...
[12:23] <davidcalle> ogra_: there is a bug for that
[12:23] <ogra_> should pehaps say "developer contact"
[12:23] <ogra_> ah, great
[12:23] <davidcalle> ogra_: not involved in the impl/design, but yeah, QA is ongoing
[12:24] <ogra_> good
[12:57] <zyga-ubuntu> niemeyer: I'd like to skip today's standup, I feel sick and haven't done much today; I'll file a day off with jamie
[12:58] <jdstrand> zyga-ubuntu: hope you feel better soon
[12:59] <zyga-ubuntu> thank you :)
[12:59] <Chipaca> zyga-ubuntu: file a day sick, not a day off, dude
[12:59] <zyga-ubuntu> oh, I didn't know we have those
[12:59] <zyga-ubuntu> I never filed one
[12:59] <Chipaca> zyga-ubuntu: remind me to walk through the other things we have, once you're back and better
[13:00] <niemeyer> zyga-ubuntu: Ack, go get some rest
[13:00] <sergiusens> zyga-ubuntu it's documented in the manual dude!
[13:00] <sergiusens> get better
[13:01] <jdstrand> stgraber: hey-- today I found the lxc command behaving a little weird. It is trying to access /var/lib/snapd/hostfs/usr/lib/os-release (something I happened to plan on adding this week for unrelated reasons) and it is trying to chroot to /var/lib/snapd/hostfs
[13:01] <jdstrand> $ lxc list
[13:01] <jdstrand> chroot: cannot change root directory to '/var/lib/snapd/hostfs': Operation not permitted
[13:01] <jdstrand> stgraber: no apparmor denials (if I add something for os-release). it works under sudo
[13:02] <jdstrand> stgraber: lxd r4375, core r3017 (2.28.1 from candidate)
[13:03] <jdstrand> stgraber: guessing when running the lxc command as non-root, it is still trying to chroot
[13:03] <jdstrand> let me try a revert
[13:05] <jdstrand> stgraber: yes, if I revert to r4279, lxc starts working again
[13:06] <jdstrand> stgraber: I think the /var/lib/snapd/hostfs/usr/lib/os-release denial is a red herring, that is in r4279 (I'll also fix this in the default template)
[13:17] <ppisati_> ogra_: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/25673213/
[13:17] <ppisati_> ogra_: snapdragon edge image
[13:19]  * kalikiana_ having (apparently) sweet greek mokka, yum
[13:28] <mvo> meh, looks like the ppc build is broken currently again: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/339707110/buildlog_ubuntu-xenial-powerpc.snapd_2.28.1+git401.a19ed0b~ubuntu16.04.1_BUILDING.txt.gz :( /<<BUILDDIR>>/snapd-2.28.1+git401.a19ed0b~ubuntu16.04.1/_build/pkg/gccgo_linux_ppc/github.com/snapcore/snapd/libosutil.a: member /<<BUILDDIR>>/snapd-2.28.1+git401.a19ed0b~ubuntu16.04.1/_build/pkg/gccgo_linux_ppc/github.com/snapcore/snapd/libosutil.a(_cgo_flags
[13:28] <mvo> ) in archive is not an object
[13:36] <jdstrand> stgraber: fyi, https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/chroot-cannot-change-root-directory-to-var-lib-snapd-hostfs-operation-not-permitted/2355/1
[13:43] <mup> PR snapd#3997 closed: cmd/snap: completion for alias and unalias <Created by chipaca> <Merged by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3997>
[13:46] <__chip__> i'ma going to go for a run unless somebody needs me to do something right now
[13:56]  * __chip__ failed to go
[14:09] <Son_Goku> mvo: yay, you're back :)
[14:10] <Son_Goku> mvo: can you look at merging this? https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3984
[14:10] <mup> PR #3984: release,cmd,dirs: Redo the distro checks to take into account distribution families <Created by Conan-Kudo> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3984>
[14:10] <Son_Goku> zyga-ubuntu has already approved it since tests pass now
[14:17] <ogra_> ppisati_, (sorry, was in meetings) ... ouch that looks like ondra's last chaneg broke it ... i thought he tested that before submitting
[14:18] <mvo> niemeyer: re 3951> did we agree on `snap pack` ?
[14:18] <mvo> Son_Goku: looking
[14:18] <mvo> Son_Goku: it needs two +1, maybe Chipaca can have a look at 3951 for the second review?
[14:19] <mvo> Chipaca: if you also could check 3993 that would be great, should be trivial
[14:19] <Son_Goku> mvo, I don't know what PR 3951 is
[14:19] <mup> PR #3951:  snap: add new `snap pack` and use in tests  <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3951>
[14:19] <Son_Goku> well.. now I do
[14:20] <mvo> Son_Goku: ups, sorry
[14:20] <mvo> Son_Goku: what I mean is we need two +1 for 3984 - I think its fine and just a formality. then we can squash merge it and cherry pick into 2.28
[14:21] <Son_Goku> okay
[14:21] <mvo> Son_Goku: lots of people out today (vac, sick, whatnot) so things are slightly slower than usual
[14:21] <ondra> ogra_ what happened?
[14:22] <jacekn> hello. any idea when "channels 2.0" will be available via dashboard.snapcraft.io? I'd like to create them for my snap
[14:25] <ogra_> ondra, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/25673213/ is what ppisati_ seess when booting db ... havent had the time to try yet but will before EOD ...
[14:25] <ogra_> ondra, looks like sd blb and mmc blob got mixed up or so
[14:25] <elopio>  mvo do you have some time this week to talk about mutt? My problem is that on my canonical gmail account, I can't see the inbox, just "all mail". This is my config: https://github.com/elopio/dotfiles/tree/master/email 😔
[14:28] <mvo> elopio: sure, keep reminding me about it if I don't get back to you :) but happy to help
[14:28] <ondra> ogra_ no if blobs would be mixed up, you will not get to uboot at all
[14:28] <ogra_> hmm, indeed
[14:28] <ogra_> well, something is wrong with eading from the fat
[14:29] <elopio> mvo: thanks. I will get back to you in a couple of days :)
[14:30] <ondra> ogra_ ppisati_ this is booting from sd card right?
[14:30] <ogra_> ondra, i woould guess so, paolo didnt reply yet... all backlog is above
[14:31] <ondra> ogra_ let me try edge image
[14:31] <ogra_> still setting up my board here .. i was in meetings til nw
[14:34] <__chip__> cachio: snapd#3951 needs you to unblock it
[14:34] <mup> PR #3951:  snap: add new `snap pack` and use in tests  <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3951>
[14:35] <Son_Goku> mvo: Chipaca approved :D
[14:35] <cachio> __chip__, I'll take a look
[14:35] <__chip__> Son_Goku: that Chipaca sounds like a cool guy
[14:35] <Son_Goku> heh, indeed
[14:36]  * __chip__ still working mostly on his travel computer, for some strange reason
[14:36] <ppisati_> ondra: yep, sd card
[14:37] <mvo> Son_Goku: yay
[14:37] <kalikiana_> __chip__: I do the same, but in fairness, I don't have a non-travel computer :-P
[14:37] <mvo> Son_Goku: I do the merge/cherry-pick in a little bit
[14:37] <Son_Goku> mvo: awesome
[14:37] <Son_Goku> I tried to do the cherry pick myself, but git got mad at me and said it can't apply
[14:37] <__chip__> kalikiana_: my eyes object if i work for too long on the 12"
[14:37] <Son_Goku> which is why 2.28.1 hasn't been released into Fedora yet...
[14:41] <cachio> __chip__, still tests failinf on that PR
[14:41] <cachio> seem to be related to the change itself
[14:43] <mup> PR snapd#3984 closed: release,cmd,dirs: Redo the distro checks to take into account distribution families <Created by Conan-Kudo> <Merged by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3984>
[14:44] <ondra> ogra_ strange, I get same thing as attila reported once, nothing at all on uart
[14:48] <__chip__> cachio: it looks like something is reexecing when it shouldn't (or viceversa)
[14:50] <mup> PR snapd#4001 opened: release,cmd,dirs: Redo the distro checks to take into account distribution families <Created by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4001>
[15:05] <kyrofa> Hey elopio, beyond the snapd tests lacking output, my particular test is dying with this: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/25673818/ . Any ideas on that one?
[15:05] <__chip__> mvo: where do i send the wine for the review of snapd#3964?
[15:05] <mup> PR #3964: many: implement our own ANSI-escape-using progress indicator <Created by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/3964>
[15:08] <mvo> __chip__: I am probably the right person, I can do it next
[15:08] <__chip__> mvo: :-)
[15:08] <__chip__> mvo: i was starting to wonder if your comment about needing to do that review with a nice glass of wine was a request :-D
[15:09] <mvo> __chip__: heh, no, its a matter of just doing it, will do so in a little bit
[15:15] <__chip__> mvo: okie doke
[15:15] <__chip__> i think i will now once again try to go for a run
[15:15]  * __chip__ hopes to make it to the door this time
[15:15] <elopio> @kyrofa we need to capture the output to see what went wrong
[15:15] <nothal> elopio: No such command!
[15:15] <mvo> __chip__: *go* for it
[15:15] <mvo> __chip__: I take a short break and attack this branch then
[15:15] <mvo> __chip__: lets see what my jetlag brain can manage
[15:15] <kyrofa> elopio, ah, okay
[15:16] <jacekn> hello. any idea when "channels 2.0" will be available via dashboard.snapcraft.io? I'd like to create them for my snap
[15:16] <elopio> Does it fail only in travis?
[15:17] <kyrofa> elopio, no, I got that one locally
[15:17] <kyrofa> But still don't know what it means :P
[15:17] <kyrofa> elopio, so if I understand your comment on GH correctly, we just need to use pipes?
[15:18] <elopio> Yes, handle the stdout and stderr on our own.
[15:18] <niemeyer> mvo: Yeah, snap pack it is (and unpack)
[15:19] <elopio> Print and safe in case we need to addDetails for an error.
[15:20] <kyrofa> elopio, alright, I'll see if I can get that working
[15:20] <kyrofa> elopio, quick question: what is the benefit of addDetails if we're printing the output?
[15:21] <elopio> The output could be huge, and the error hidden somewhere. In theory, details are nicely printed in the error report at the end of the run.
[15:27] <kyrofa> Ah, okay
[15:27] <kyrofa> elopio, should we only addDetails stderr?
[15:28] <kyrofa> Or both?
[15:30] <sergiusens> jacekn creation of channels is done per request on the store category on https;//forum.snapcraft.io ... once granted it should show up on the dashboard
[15:31] <jacekn> sergiusens: thanks. Do you know how to login using ubuntu SSO by any chance?
[15:31] <sergiusens> jacekn you can read more about that here https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/channel-terminology-and-policy/551
[15:31] <sergiusens> jacekn I am not sure about that, niemeyer might have more details on it
[15:32] <niemeyer> jacekn: You mean from code to interact with the store?
[15:34] <jacekn> niemeyer: no, I mean to use login.ubuntu.com openid, same as dashboard.snapcraft.io uses (requirement to create new account for snapcraft forums is an obstackle for users)
[15:35] <elopio> kyrofa: after talking with mpt, it seems to me that we can make stderr good enough to understand errors, and look at the full output for details. But, we are not there, I guess for now it depends on each case. Maybe add only stderr, and if it's not good enough, file a bug?
[15:36] <kyrofa> elopio, good deal
[15:36] <kyrofa> And agreed
[15:36] <niemeyer> jacekn: Sorry I'm a bit out of context.. what's the issue again? Do we have someone trying to login and they can't?
[15:38] <jacekn> niemeyer: context is me trying to get channels 2.0 set up and I was told that to do that I have to post on forum.snapcraft.io but I can't see any option to log in with ubuntu SSO (or any other open id)
[15:39] <ondra> ogra_ my dragonboard is refusing to boot at all
[15:39] <niemeyer> jacekn: If you click on Sign In and enter your email and password you should be able to quickly get in
[15:39] <ogra_> ondra, i have some massive issues with my SD reader ... it refuses to detect any cards
[15:40] <ogra_> ondra, wsell, i suspect we need to roll back the last gadget commit then
[15:40] <niemeyer> jacekn: Please let me know if you have any issues there
[15:40] <ogra_> (though i'd really like to test myself first ... damned)
[15:40] <niemeyer> We'll likely enable more login systems at some point
[15:40] <jacekn> niemeyer: sorry but I won't enter my 3rd party password on forum.snapcraft.io, openid shoudl send me to the right place
[15:41] <niemeyer> jacekn: You can enter whatever password you want...
[15:42] <jacekn> niemeyer: right so I need to create an account. Understood
[15:43] <niemeyer> jacekn: Yep, email and password and you're up
[15:44] <jacekn> ack. Running out of time but might do that next time. I'll also try to file a bug to support SSO for convenience and consistency with the dashboard
[15:45] <niemeyer> Thanks!
[15:46] <mup> PR snapcraft#1589 opened: Update default node engine to 6.11.3 <Created by flexiondotorg> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1589>
[15:58] <ppisati_> ogra_: please, don't rollback without reproducing my issue - if i start from an old -edge image, and i let it update, it appears to be fine
[15:58] <ppisati_> ogra_: while when buiding a fresh -edge image locally, i hit the problem above
[15:58] <ogra_> ppisati_, because we never update gadget content
[15:59] <ogra_> its a regression in ondra's last change, i see the same issue over here
[15:59] <ppisati_> ok
[16:00] <ondra> ogra_ that is strange as I did test fresh image, I almost never update
[16:00] <ogra_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/25674091/
[16:01] <ogra_> ondra, same output that ppisati_ got above
[16:01] <ogra_> well
[16:01] <ondra> ogra_ let me check one thing
[16:01] <ogra_> in fact ...
[16:01] <ogra_> ubooot.env seems to be broken
[16:01] <ogra_> printenv doesnt list a single snappy_ var
[16:02] <ogra_> dragonboard410c => fatls mmc 0
[16:02] <ogra_> sdhci_transfer_data: Transfer data timeout
[16:02] <ogra_> mmc_init: -70, time 10653
[16:02] <ogra_> ** Bad device mmc 0 **
[16:03] <ogra_> dragonboard410c => fatls mmc 1
[16:03] <ogra_> ** Unrecognized filesystem type **
[16:03] <ogra_> ah, wait
[16:03] <ogra_> dragonboard410c => fatls mmc 1:8
[16:03] <ogra_>             blobs/
[16:03] <ogra_>    131072   uboot.env
[16:03] <ogra_>             dragonboard-kernel_37.snap/
[16:03] <ogra_> it sees the file but doesnt load it
[16:04] <mup> PR snapcraft#1590 opened: setuptools: conditional Debian-specific deps <Created by kalikiana> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1590>
[16:04] <ogra_> aha
[16:04] <ogra_> - #define BOOT_TARGET_DEVICES(func) \
[16:04] <ogra_> - 	func(USB, usb, 0) \
[16:04] <ogra_> --	func(MMC, mmc, 1) \
[16:04] <ogra_> - 	func(MMC, mmc, 0) \
[16:04] <ogra_> -+	func(MMC, mmc, 1) \
[16:04] <ogra_> - 	func(DHCP, dhcp, na)
[16:04] <ogra_> ondra, ^^^ i bet thats the issue
[16:05] <ogra_> yo switched the boot devices around with your patches somehow
[16:05] <ondra> ogra_ but I did not change patches
[16:05] <ogra_> err
[16:05] <ondra> ogra_ I only split them
[16:05] <ogra_> you prretty much reworked all of them
[16:06] <ogra_> https://github.com/snapcore/dragonboard-gadget/pull/6/files
[16:06] <mup> PR dragonboard-gadget#6: gadget snap build improvements <Created by kubiko> <Merged by ogra1> <https://github.com/snapcore/dragonboard-gadget/pull/6>
[16:09] <ogra_> ondra, are you sure "git am --3way ../../../u-boot-generic*.patch" will actually apply both generic patches ?
[16:12] <stgraber> jdstrand: I believe I've got a fix for that one already, might just need promotion
[16:25] <ondra> ogra_ it will
[16:25] <ondra> ogra_ just testing it here
[16:25] <ogra_> ondra, well ...
[16:25] <ondra> ogra_ I think I found something
[16:25] <ogra_> U-Boot 2017.05-dirty (Sep 21 2017 - 17:41:37 +0000)
[16:25] <ogra_> Qualcomm-DragonBoard 410C
[16:25] <ogra_> DRAM:  986 MiB
[16:25] <ogra_> MMC:   sdhci@07824000: 0, sdhci@07864000: 1
[16:25] <ogra_> Using default environment
[16:25] <ogra_> it definitely doesnt read uboot.env
[16:26] <ondra> ogra_ I did it manually now and there is difference, #define CONFIG_SYS_BOOTM_LEN           0x1000000 <> #define CONFIG_SYS_BOOTM_LEN           SZ_32M
[16:26] <ogra_> even though i can see it with fatls
[16:26] <ogra_> but bootm is way later
[16:26] <ondra> ogra_ but we are not hitting that at all
[16:26] <ondra> ogra_ yes and we still fit in 16M anyway
[16:26] <ogra_> the issue is that it never loads the env
[16:27] <ogra_> "Using default environment" is a clear indicator
[16:29] <kyrofa> elopio, something else is slurping up the stdout, even the prints in the test
[16:29] <kyrofa> I don't remember where that is
[16:29] <ondra> ogra_ I understand, just trying to figure out what is the reason for that
[16:30] <ogra_> mvo, hrm ...
[16:30] <ogra_> ogra@anubis:~$ snapcraft-forum
[16:30] <ogra_> udev_enumerate_scan failed
[16:30] <ogra_> ogra@anubis:~$
[16:30] <ogra_> mvo, my snaps dont start anymore after a reboot
[16:30] <kyrofa> elopio, I suppose it's just unittest
[16:31] <kyrofa> Because then it prints stdout/stderr upon failure
[16:31] <ogra_> mvo, i'm on the beta core
[16:31] <ogra_> ogra@anubis:~$ rocketchat-desktop
[16:31] <ogra_> udev_enumerate_scan failed
[16:31] <mvo> ogra_: when did this start to happen? what revision and what is in the journal/systemd status for the given snaps?
[16:31] <kyrofa> Er, testtools
[16:31] <mvo> ogra_: uhhh, that sounds like something from either snap-confine or kernel
[16:31] <ogra_> mvo, i just rebooted, (xeniall desktop all up to date)
[16:31] <mvo> ogra_: desktop even, hmmm
[16:32] <ogra_> it worked befoore the reboot
[16:32] <ogra_> not sure what came in with the recent updates ... surely a kernel though
[16:32] <ogra_> (i had not rebooted for a while)
[16:33] <ondra> ogra_ building gadget here again, to make sure all the patches are correct
[16:33] <ogra_> ondra, yeah, i just did the same ... the code loks correct ...
[16:33] <ondra> ogra_ yep I pulled old patch and compared and looks all as expected
[16:34] <ondra> ogra_ also I did 10+ runs from sdcard here on that code
[16:34] <ogra_> i was guessing that when i merged it ... yet .. it is broken
[16:37] <ogra_> ondra, since fatls mmc 1:8 shoows uboot.env just fine theer must be something with the patch
[16:37] <ogra_> uboot.env is definitely where it should be
[16:38]  * kalikiana_ going to wrap up for the day...
[16:40] <ondra> ogra_ any idea how can I restore dragoboard, my one seems to be buggered, so I can't test any
[16:40] <ogra_> ondra, no idea what yoou mean ? wiping the emmc ?
[16:40] <ondra> ogra_ can't boot from sd or emms, nothing at all coming on console
[16:40] <ondra> ogra_ nothing even from aboot
[16:41] <ogra_> ondra, hmm, inteesting fact ... building a local image with the gadget i built locally seems to boot
[16:41] <ogra_> that sounds more like your mezzanine board doesnt work
[16:41] <ondra> ogra_ and user led does not even show that it's trying to boor from sd card when there is sd card
[16:41] <ondra> ogra_ no I connected uart directly and no luck either
[16:42] <ogra_> does the led on the mezzanine board light up at all ?
[16:42] <ondra> ogra_ plus I did try another mezzanine board  and same
[16:42] <ondra> ogra_ yeah only red one though
[16:42] <ogra_> how do you connect to uart directly ? i dnt thhink the db supports that
[16:42] <ogra_> thats fine ...
[16:42] <ogra_> red here too
[16:42] <ondra> ogra_ not one which will show trafic
[16:42] <ondra> ogra_ TX and Rx are on Pin 11 and 13
[16:43] <ondra> ogra_ https://github.com/96boards/documentation/blob/master/ConsumerEdition/DragonBoard-410c/Guides/uart-serial-console.md
[16:43] <ogra_> well, did you play with the dip switches at the bottom of the board ?
[16:43] <ondra> ogra_ I did not wear safety glassed when installing it though :)
[16:44] <ondra> ogra_ no, nothing it was here on the desk since I used it last time and then it was running fine
[16:44] <ogra_> weird
[16:45] <kyrofa> elopio, ah ha! runtests.sh uses -b
[16:45] <kyrofa> elopio, removing it starts printing stuff
[16:45] <ondra> ogra_ tell me about it, it packed itself up while it was not even connected to power
[16:45] <kyrofa> elopio, is that what you have in mind?
[16:46] <ogra_> mvo, hmm, even switching to stable coe ... noo luck ... and nothing in dmesg, syslog or journalctl .... all i get is "udev_enumerate_scan failed" when tying to un any snap
[16:46] <ogra_> *stable core
[16:47]  * ogra_ tries another rebot
[16:50] <ogra_> mvo, hrm, so whatever it was, another reboot fixed it
[16:50] <mvo> ogra_: hm, so the error comes from snap-confine and it happens when enumerating udev fails, now that might be a bug on our side if we add a incorrect udev tag somehow
[16:51] <ogra_> mvo, yeah, but i cant reproduce it anymore after refreshing to stable and rebooting
[16:51] <ogra_> ondra, so given my locally built gadget works over here, i think i'll just upload that one by hand to the store and we can take care of the rest tomorrow
[16:53] <ondra> ogra_ so if you build it locally it works fine?
[16:53] <ogra_> ondra, yes
[16:53] <ondra> ogra_ OK upload that one and let me check one thing
[16:53] <ogra_> uploaded
[16:54] <ogra_> (waiting for the store to actually release it, then i'll do another testbuild)
[16:55] <ondra> ogra_ I think I know what happened
[16:55] <ondra> ogra_ so when you call git am, it will commit those changes
[16:56] <ogra_> why dont you just use --apply
[16:56] <ondra> ogra_ which works fine on your/mine machine, as we have set up user
[16:56] <ogra_> like we do in all other gadgets
[16:56] <ondra> ogra_ it failed on LP, as git it not set
[16:56] <ondra> ogra_ because then you need one gadget, or can you do that on multiple patches?
[16:56] <mvo> ogra_: hm, strange
[16:56] <ogra_> yeah, use apply :)
[16:57] <ondra> ogra_ check here https://launchpadlibrarian.net/337810269/buildlog_snap_ubuntu_xenial_arm64_dragonboard_BUILDING.txt.gz
[16:57] <ondra> ogra_ search for *** Please tell me who you are.
[16:57] <ogra_> ondra, you use a shell script to call git am ... just make it a loop that calls apply
[16:57] <ondra> ogra_ that's where it's suppose to say Applying: suport patch for dragonboard410c for ubuntu-core
[16:58] <ondra> ogra_ and my dragoboard went to 96 board heaven, no fastboot, neither recovery sd card working
[16:58] <ogra_> ondra, that should noot be possible, there is a ROM that should be recoverable
[16:58] <ogra_> unless you caused some electrical damage
[16:59] <ogra_> ask in #96boards
[16:59] <mup> PR #96: Move architecture handling into its own package <Created by mvo5> <Merged by chipaca> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/96>
[16:59]  * ogra_ whacks mup
[16:59] <ondra> ogra_ lol
[16:59] <ogra_> cprov, http://people.canonical.com/~ogra/snappy/dragonboard-gadget.png why do i have two edge entries there ?
[17:00] <ondra> ogra_ I'm gonna prepare PR replacing am with apply, seems to working as expected
[17:00] <ogra_> i assume that shouldnt be possible
[17:00] <ogra_> ondra, +1 ... take your time though, we should be safe for the dalies now with the manual upload
[17:00] <ogra_> so tomorrow is enough
[17:01] <ondra> ogra_ well I can't even test, as my board is dead now
[17:01] <ogra_> (well, we should be fine if the store behaves ... that screenshot above is a bit worrying)
[17:02] <ondra> ppisati_ thanks for bringing this up! defo problem with LP build
[17:02] <ogra_> yeah
[17:02] <ogra_> ondra, we seem to have a user that uses our gadget as input on the forrum whoo saw it too
[17:02] <ondra> ogra_ I did not know we have armhf build for dragoboard :)
[17:03] <ogra_> (i was kind of assuming he broke it with his own patch ... )
[17:03] <ogra_> ondra, oh,. hah
[17:03] <ogra_> blind me
[17:03] <ondra> ogra_ yeah that second edge is different arch
[17:03] <ogra_> yeah
[17:03] <ondra> ogra_ which is even more amusing :D
[17:03] <ogra_> let me unrelease that
[17:03] <ppisati_> ondra: not at all
[17:03] <ondra> ogra_ I really want to know where that build came from
[17:03]  * ppisati_ goes to the gym, back in ~1hr
[17:04] <ogra_> ondra, most likely a test build of mine in snapcraft.io
[17:04] <ondra> ogra_ lol
[17:04] <ogra_> i was tinkering with the possibilities of auto-builds without syncing to LP
[17:04] <ondra> ogra_ yeah there are only 3 builds
[17:04] <ogra_> bah
[17:04] <ogra_> and i cant unelease it
[17:04] <ondra> ogra_ so we should have also one for amd64 then :P
[17:05] <ogra_> build.snapcraft.io doesnt do arm64 yet
[17:05] <ondra> ogra_ I was so many times asking id snapcraft.io can control architectures, here you have reason why
[17:05] <ogra_> thats the prob ...
[17:05] <ogra_> we could hardcode cross building
[17:05] <ogra_> so an amd64 build would always produce an arm64 snap
[17:06] <ogra_> but that seems a bit evil in case someone wants to build natively
[17:06] <ondra> ogra_ yeah, but look to snapcraft.yaml, it has specifically defined only arm64 architecture, so we have fail on multiple levels
[17:06] <ogra_> anyway, myth solved ...
[17:06] <ogra_> well, that arm64 only applies to the snap metadata
[17:06] <ondra> ogra_ so build.snapcraft.io  ignored arch in snapcraft.yaml and store does same, and takes file name instead
[17:06] <ogra_> snaps doont care if the binaries actually match whats written on the box
[17:07] <ogra_> b.s.io will elease an arm64 snap
[17:07] <ogra_> no matter whats inside
[17:07] <ogra_> snapcraft.yaml rules here
[17:07] <ogra_> the trick is to make sure the binaries inside are actually arm64
[17:07] <ondra> ogra_ but it build armhf, from recipe which says "arm64 only". magic
[17:08] <ogra_> my nanopi gadgets all just do cross build on amd64
[17:08] <ogra_> but out comes armhf as the snap
[17:08] <ondra> ogra_ snapcraft.yaml says arm64 only
[17:08] <ogra_> yes
[17:08] <ogra_> but snapcraft doesnt care
[17:08] <ogra_> it just uses the local native arch
[17:09] <ogra_> now ... if you force install a cross compiler and spürinkle some magic into the build scripts you will get an armhf or arm64 binary inside
[17:09] <ogra_> anyway ... i goot called for dinner ...
[17:09]  * ogra_ is afk
[17:09] <ondra> ogra_ but we already have armhf binary in there :P
[17:10] <ogra_> yes
[17:10] <ondra> ogra_ remember we set arch to arm
[17:10] <ogra_> likely a bug ...
[17:10] <ogra_> anyway ... off now ...
[17:25] <kyrofa> flexiondotorg, can you give me a pointer to the user-story-oriented documentation you guys have been working on? I have two to add
[17:25] <kyrofa> But I can't remember where they are
[17:25] <kyrofa> popey, that might be a question for you as well ^^
[17:26] <kyrofa> Also, are those docs live anywhere?
[17:26] <sergiusens> kyrofa https://docs.snapcraft.io/build-snaps/languages
[17:27] <kyrofa> Ah ha, snappy-docs then, got it
[17:28] <kyrofa> Those are not quite as findable as I expected
[17:29] <flexiondotorg> kyrofa: There were on the site. But apparently are not currently?!
[17:29] <kyrofa> flexiondotorg, they are, but you have to know where to look
[17:29] <flexiondotorg> I mean the top level navigation.
[17:29] <kyrofa> Ah indeed
[17:29] <flexiondotorg> I'll raise this.
[17:29] <kyrofa> The snapcraft hooks docs were blown away as well
[17:30] <kyrofa> Things have been shuffling there recently
[17:33] <davidcalle> Kyrofa, blown away?
[17:33] <kyrofa> davidcalle, replaced with snapd docs :P
[17:34] <davidcalle> Oh no, with brand new docs
[17:34] <davidcalle> Kyrofa, feel free to tweak and add
[17:35] <kyrofa> flexiondotorg, I was going to add MOOS/ROS docs, but they're more... technologies, not languages. Is that okay?
[17:36] <davidcalle> sergiusens: kyrofa: let's move languages up in the tree, right after first snap
[17:37] <kyrofa> I guess "node" isn't really a language either
[17:37] <davidcalle> Kyrofa : looks like the only requirement so far is having a logo for it
[17:37] <davidcalle> :p
[17:37] <kyrofa> davidcalle, sounds good
[17:37] <kyrofa> davidcalle, hahaha
[17:59] <mup> PR snapd#4002 opened: interfaces: misc updates for default, browser-support, home and system-observe <Created by jdstrand> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4002>
[18:03] <kyrofa> Alright elopio, sergiusens take a look at snapcraft#1591
[18:03] <mup> PR snapcraft#1591: snapd integration tests: print stdout/stderr <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1591>
[18:04] <mup> PR snapcraft#1591 opened: snapd integration tests: print stdout/stderr <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1591>
[18:13] <mup> PR snapd#4003 opened: interfaces: deny lttng by default <Created by jdstrand> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4003>
[18:30] <mup> PR snapd#4004 opened: interfaces/lxd: lxd slot implementation can also be an app snap <Created by jdstrand> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4004>
[19:07] <sergiusens> kyrofa I'll look in a bit
[19:44] <Mikael> I have a bunch of Dell 2001 running ubuntu core and is concerned about the system time being syncronized. Is there a snap to sync time? I've seen timedatectl mentioned...
[19:45] <Mikael> Dell3001
[19:53] <mup> PR snapd#4005 opened: Add an exception for Firefox's access to /dev/shm, <Created by oSoMoN> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/4005>
[19:55] <__chip__> Mikael: I think the people that can answer that are in a different timezone -- maybe use forum.snapcraft.io so you don't miss eachother
[19:58] <Mikael> Thanks Chip
[20:04] <kyrofa> davidcalle, flexiondotorg can I get a new project created on https://github.com/snapcraft-docs ?
[20:14] <kyrofa> sergiusens, any chance you have access to that group?
[20:15] <sergiusens> kyrofa maybe, why do you ask? :-)
[20:15] <kyrofa> sergiusens, every language document has its example hosted there
[20:15] <sergiusens> kyrofa so, what do you want me to create?
[20:15] <sergiusens> I was being tongue in cheek btw ;-)
[20:16] <kyrofa> sergiusens, if you would be so kind as to create a moos-ping-example repo there to which I have access
[20:17] <sergiusens> sure thing
[20:22] <sergiusens> kyrofa moos-ping or moos-ping-example?
[20:22] <sergiusens> moos-ping feels a bit better
[20:22] <kyrofa> sergiusens, I'm good with it
[20:22] <sergiusens> with which kyrofa? ;-)
[20:22] <kyrofa> Ha!
[20:22] <kyrofa> With moos-ping
[20:23] <kyrofa> sergiusens, sadly, there are no generically useful MOOS or ROS utilities out there, so the examples we need to use are overbearingly boring
[20:23] <kyrofa> Anything not boring is way too complex for this :P
[20:23] <kyrofa> But it'll do the job
[20:23] <sergiusens> kyrofa done, git@github.com:snapcraft-docs/-moos-ping.git
[20:24] <sergiusens> kyrofa the code for moos you mean and not the snapcraft.yaml itself ;-)
[20:25] <kyrofa> sergiusens, of course ;)
[20:25] <kyrofa> sergiusens, hmm... the leading hyphen?  Happy to do PRs if you prefer
[20:26] <kyrofa> Oh, I have to accept the invite, how fancy
[20:27] <kyrofa> Okay all good on the commit access. Fix the hyphen and we're good
[20:29] <sergiusens> strange, not sure how that hyphen got there
[20:29] <sergiusens> kyrofa you cannot commit?
[20:30] <kyrofa> sergiusens, all good now, thank you!
[20:35] <sergiusens> kyrofa btw, snapcraft#1578 could use your attention
[20:35] <mup> PR snapcraft#1578: project_loader: quote more environment variable values <Created by malept> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1578>
[20:35] <kyrofa> Ah yes, okay
[20:41] <mup> PR snapcraft#1586 closed: repo: friendly, helpful error for unsupported distros <Created by kalikiana> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1586>
[20:42] <sergiusens> kyrofa and snapcraft#1591 is failing
[20:42] <mup> PR snapcraft#1591: snapd integration tests: print stdout/stderr <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1591>
[20:43] <kyrofa> Nooooooo
[20:44] <mup> Issue snapcraft#1556 closed: build-snaps recording <design-required> <Created by sergiusens> <Closed by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/issue/1556>
[20:44] <mup> PR snapcraft#1567 closed: recording: record the snaps installed on the machine <Created by elopio> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1567>
[20:44] <sergiusens> elopio mind resolving the conflicts on snapcraft#1584 ?
[20:44] <mup> PR snapcraft#1584: style: use dedent for multiline strings <Created by elopio> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1584>
[20:52] <kyrofa> sergiusens, if you by chance have some downtime to proofread: https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/snappy-docs/pull/131
[20:52] <mup> PR CanonicalLtd/snappy-docs#131: languages: add MOOS guide <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/snappy-docs/pull/131>
[20:53] <sergiusens> kyrofa downtime is a rare commodity now that I am alone with my son this week ;-)
[20:53] <kyrofa> sergiusens, haha, hence the phrasing
[20:54] <kyrofa> ROS one should be up by tomorrow at the latest
[20:54] <sergiusens> but I will indeed review later tonight, after bed the bed time shift; we have a tent in his room where we do the first try to get sleeping
[20:55] <kyrofa> Going back to PRs and reviews for now
[21:00]  * sergiusens mini EODs until later in the evening/night
[21:13] <kyrofa> sergiusens, snapcraft#1591 should be fixed
[21:13] <mup> PR snapcraft#1591: snapd integration tests: print stdout/stderr <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1591>
[21:13] <elopio> sergiusens: I see no conflicts there. I updated the quotes in the docs
[21:17] <elopio> oh damn, there are many in the fake refactor. That might be hard.
[21:41] <mup> PR snapcraft#1565 closed: cli: add the pack command <Created by sergiusens> <Merged by sergiusens> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/pull/1565>
[22:58] <kyrofa> sergiusens, when you're able, can you fork https://github.com/ros/ros_tutorials into snapcraft-docs, please?
[23:01] <kyrofa> sergiusens, wait... no. Don't do that
[23:02] <kyrofa> sergiusens, just create a ros-talker-listener repo, or something similar
[23:34] <kyrofa> sergiusens, https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/snappy-docs/pull/132 for the ROS one
[23:34] <mup> PR CanonicalLtd/snappy-docs#132: languages: add ROS guide <Created by kyrofa> <https://github.com/CanonicalLtd/snappy-docs/pull/132>