[01:08] <wxl> @lynorian: we should make a thing in the manual about how to create a shortcut on the desktpo
[01:08] <lynorian> wxl I think I already have that somewhat in chapter 5 will look at that again
[01:09] <wxl> oh i might have missed it
[01:09] <wxl> yep you got it
[01:09] <wxl> sorry :)
[01:10] <wxl> although we might want to generalize that for things that don't already have desktop entries
[01:11] <lynorian> wxl understood
[01:34] <guiverc> 19.04 qa-test (live) on x86 tablet; trying to get onscreen keyboard; https://manual.lubuntu.me/3/3.1/3.1.1/fcitx.html?highlight=fcitx doesn't seem to apply; or I'm to dumb to make use of - is it me, or am i missing something?
[01:36] <lynorian> I get this too in a virtual machine
[01:38] <guiverc> thanks lynorian .. i'll just note in comments & move on (yell out anyone if you need/want more..)
[01:38] <lynorian> bug report would be best
[01:38] <guiverc> okay - will do
 Does it show in the system tray?
[01:40] <lynorian> the tray icon is showing for me but the on screen keyboard has buttons that do nothing
 Ah, gotcha.
[01:43] <guiverc> i see no keyboard like tray keyboard option, and have selected them all, none appear to apply
[01:43] <guiverc> kc2bez, ^
 Oh interesting. Seems a little different than lynorian. I don't normally use it so I was curious.
[01:47] <lynorian> well did you start fcitx it is not on by default
[01:51] <guiverc> nope - was trying to use device as it comes (avoiding the plugin keyboard).. - probably the issue
[01:52] <guiverc> i've already filed bug report (without text; useless keyboard on that thing) so will fill in on this, then return to play (starting fcitx!)
 @wxl [<wxl> @tsimonq2: did you look at all into the k3b thing?], I haven't, you wanted me to? :)
 You guys are amazing, thanks everyone!
 So happy to see 16.04.6 marked as ready, hopefully for the final time :)
 Fingers crossed.
 Anyone wanna take the LXQt 0.14.1 update? *ahem* wxl @kc2bez @HMollerCl ;)
 @kc2bez [Fingers crossed.], Right, heh...
 @tsimonq2 [Anyone wanna take the LXQt 0.14.1 update? *ahem* wxl @kc2bez @HMollerCl ;)], As soon as I get home I'll throw instructions on the wiki and merge Han's stuff
[02:20] <wxl[m]> @tsimonq2 yeah I'm really confused about k3b, so I'm hoping you might have some additional insight
 Sure
[05:27] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL5588302d7d7e: Make capitialization more readable] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL5588302d7d7e
[11:33] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [T160: Automatically sign into the captive portal] kc2bez (Dan Simmons) commented on the task: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T160#3692
[11:42] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [T181: Test LXQt 0.14.0 for bugs] kc2bez (Dan Simmons) commented on the task: https://phab.lubuntu.me/T181#3693
 Hi, I'm still having problems loging into phab through github oauth. @tsimonq2 @teward001
 So am I
 @teward001
 @teward001
 :P
 Fwd from S. J.: I can not register at  translate.lubuntu.me. I simply get no no confirmation link.
 Fwd from tsimonq2: That's @teward001's turn
 Fwd from tsimonq2: Your MTA isn't working :P
 @HMollerCl Try Phab nos
 *now
 Same problem at least in chrome mobile
 Hmm
 in firefox it doesn't send me to github
 gives the error before that, sends me to https://phab.lubuntu.me/auth/login/github:github.com/
 @tsimonq2 email is faster you know.
 noob
 'cause i'm currently busy putting out fires at my FT job
 we did a massive firewall switchover and are putting out the fires that's caused
 and i've been working on this for 24+ hrs so i'm beat, tired, and not exactly mild-mannered right now
 (just an FYI)
 not your fault
 we'll blame Simon
 because it's his fault.
[20:02] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUALb9c6f8b00a1f: Fix warning] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUALb9c6f8b00a1f
[20:23] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [rMANUAL8b2d7b609a7e: Link to wikipedia over https] lynorian (Lyn Perrine) committed: https://phab.lubuntu.me/rMANUAL8b2d7b609a7e
 Yo!
 Who's around for the standup?
[21:59] <wxl> o/
 O/
 wxl @HMollerCl @kc2bez @TheWendyPower @lynorian docEbrown
 Ah :D
[22:00] <lynorian> \o
[22:00] <guiverc> in 30-40 secs; start without me & I'll read back
 Ok
 Let's go wxl, @kc2bez, lynorian, anyone else who shows up, then me
[22:02] <wxl> ok
[22:02] <wxl> kind of back on my feet again.. which is to say i'm trying to get caught up on emails
[22:03] <wxl> helped out with 16.04.6 testing
[22:03] <wxl> working on getting lfnw all set up
[22:03] <wxl> scratched my head about k3b msising from the seed
[22:04] <wxl> i think that's about all i've got
 Thanks wxl!
 On to @kc2bez
 Apologies I am on my phone so tapping this out will take a second
 I did some testing on 16.04.6
 Made a couple of comments on some phab tasks.
 Sry don't have them handy here.
 That's pretty much it for me.
[22:07] <lynorian> I have done more writing the manual like always
[22:08] <lynorian> I did a large read through and reworded many awkward things
[22:08] <lynorian> I did work on vlc and ark prefrences
[22:08] <wxl> i love how i'm all like "you should add this to the manual lynorian" and she's like "already done" XD
 XD
[22:09] <tsimonq2> :D
[22:09] <lynorian> I found a missing checkbox for grouping digits in kcalc
[22:09] <tsimonq2> I hear lynorian has a talk today at SCALE!
[22:09] <lynorian> yes I am also preparing for that
 Awesome^
[22:10] <wxl> get it on film!
 Here
[22:10] <lynorian> it will be
[22:10] <lynorian> I did some other minor fixes like get actual superscripts for exponentiation on Kcalc
[22:12] <lynorian> And more paragraph formatting for libreoffice writer including borders and things like that
 \o
[22:13] <lynorian> I have been working on the slides for the presentation as well
[22:13] <tsimonq2> Cool, anything else lynorian?
[22:14] <lynorian> inserting current date and page count into libre office writer as well
[22:14] <lynorian> I am having to use git log to remember what I did this week
[22:15] <lynorian> I also reworded things minorly in the appearance
[22:16] <lynorian> I also realizaed I messed up lxqt-panel in the order of paragraphs now makes more sense when customizing I go by left to right by default
[22:16] <lynorian> I have a pdf version built locally but the numbering is still messed up
[22:17] <lynorian> oh and I created an 18.10 branch haven't quite gotten all 19.04 new features documented yet but kept finding stuff not in the 18.10 manual which can be suprising I missed stuff at first
[22:18] <lynorian> not sure I have that all merged with local changes with master then of course I find the typos and stuff
[22:19] <lynorian> I am done for this week preparing for presentations is harder than I thought at first
[22:20] <tsimonq2> hehe :)
[22:20] <wxl> SO TRUE
[22:20] <guiverc> fyi: i've found the manual really useful lynorian :)
[22:20] <tsimonq2> Thanks lynorian and @kc2bez!
[22:20] <tsimonq2> +1 guiverc
[22:20] <wxl> i love being able to reply to a support request with a link to the manual
[22:21] <tsimonq2> ikr
[22:21] <tsimonq2> Alright, guiverc?
 maybe we could link the manual to thos irc bots?
 like !ask or !pastebinit
 is doable?
[22:22] <guiverc> (as usual I got nothing to add)
[22:22] <tsimonq2> guiverc: Thanks for testing ISOs this week!
[22:23] <tsimonq2> That didn't go unnoticed, so yes, you did have something to add. ;)
[22:23] <wxl> yeah we could do that @HMollerCl. just need to come up with a good thing
[22:23] <tsimonq2> +1
[22:23] <wxl> yeah and always contributing to bug reports, too
[22:23] <tsimonq2> We just need to talk to the IRC ops
[22:23] <wxl> i can deal with that
[22:23] <lynorian> not sure that would get the exact page needed though
[22:23] <tsimonq2> wxl: ack
[22:23] <tsimonq2> guiverc: While your work may be in the background, it is appreciated :)
[22:24] <guiverc> :)
[22:24] <tsimonq2> @HMollerCl: Your turn I think
 support is also apreciated
[22:24] <tsimonq2> ^
 ok, I've done some improvement on software-properties-qt, correcting some typos, changing debconf to kde and solving bug 1801439. Those are waiting merge
 @tsimonq2 noticed me that some word-wrap was needed, bot is not an easy task. Is a radio button and QRadioButton is plaintext so no wrodwrap exist, it would need some hacking.
 I've also worked in update-notifier. I think that now we have a version that's good fro production. The only thing that lacks is to chery pick which pakcages upgrade/update, but commanline doesn't have that either.
[22:29] <wxl> hey re: software-properties-qt please note the changelog needs to be fixed. you are using 0.97.3 but we're at at least 0.97.6
[22:30] <tsimonq2> Oh, right.
 good, point will look at it. How should I calculate changelog number?
[22:30] <tsimonq2> So, the other changes need to be imported in, from the archive.
[22:30] <wxl> ^^ that
[22:31] <tsimonq2> The way Bazaar works, when I merge your changes, it just applies it on top of the current tree.
[22:31] <tsimonq2> tl;dr don't worry about it, I got it.
 I think I will have to bother you with that
 I also helped testing 32 bity
 I really need some repo for update-notifier / upgrader to start packaging it
 and finally, tomorrow I start a new job, I think mi online-es will be reduced giving me only time to work on lubunto on after office hour.
[22:34] <wxl> you could just do it in launchpad but we should create you a repo on phab. no @tsimonq2 ?
[22:34] <wxl> congrats on the new job!
 thanks!
[22:34] <tsimonq2> ok
[22:34] <tsimonq2> Congrats Hans!
 Well done mate!
 @wxl [<wxl> you could just do it in launchpad but we should create you a repo on phab. …], for now the mos important thing for me is tto know where in the directory structure it should be
[22:35] <wxl> @HMollerCl just follow debian standards
 aaa, I forgot wih docEbrown we have been trying to connecto a pty to the upgrader to get this terminal like verbositty that ubunru upgrade-manager has.
 trying -> no clue how to make it happen at this time
[22:36] <tsimonq2> I can work with you @HMollerCL
 thanks @tsimonq2
 I will ping you
[22:37] <tsimonq2> Cool :)
[22:37] <tsimonq2> I'll go real quick
[22:37] <tsimonq2>  * State of the archive:
[22:37] <tsimonq2>    - 16.04.6 was released today. My #1 priority after the meeting is to crank out a release announcement.
[22:37] <tsimonq2>    - FEATURE FREEZE IS UPON US. FEEL ITS WRATH. 19.04 is in less than two months, let that sink in.
[22:37] <tsimonq2>  * Infrastructure:
[22:37] <tsimonq2>    - Phabricator updates, as per usual.
[22:37] <tsimonq2>    - Helping out Ubuntu Studio set up their teleirc instance.
[22:37] <tsimonq2>  * The DMB approved delegation of upload permissions to the lubuntu packageset to ~lubuntu-dev - the TB just needs to button push.
[22:37] <tsimonq2>  * Wrote some code which disallows duplicate autopkgtests to be triggered. The code is a WIP but I hope to get it merged Soon.
[22:37] <tsimonq2>  * Asked for funding from work to go to DebConf. I'll be at LFNW for sure, SELF is very likely. There's a Debian BSP in Portland on 03/10 *POKE wxl*, I'm going to ask around to see if I can get there (if not, oh well).
[22:38] <tsimonq2>  * Internal Council stuff, as usual this isn't public.
[22:38] <tsimonq2>  * TOO MUCH SNOW. Light week for me because life has hit me like a truck. Hopefully back to normal this week.
[22:38] <tsimonq2> QED
[22:39] <wxl> oh yeah snow and ice here, too
 Quod Erat Demonstrandum?
[22:40] <wxl> well, i mean in eugene, any snow that sticks around is pretty substantial
[22:40] <wxl> so by snow belt standards, it's not that exciting
[22:40] <wxl> still, we've got up to about 3 feet up in the foothills
 It is always cold here in Hoth.
[22:40] <wxl> XD
[22:41] <wxl> that's why it's always helpful to curl up with a good old tantan
 @HMollerCl [Quod Erat Demonstrandum?], Yeah
[22:41] <tsimonq2> wxl: XD
[22:41] <tsimonq2> wxl: GO TO PORTLAND FOR THE BSP
[22:41] <tsimonq2> :P
[22:42] <wxl> not in this weather XD
[22:42] <lynorian> BSP?
[22:42] <wxl> bug squashing party
[22:42] <lynorian> ok makes sense now
[22:43] <tsimonq2> wxl: Well not in this weather but CERTAINLY the weather on March 10th XD
[22:43] <wxl> i'm not sure that's so certain
[22:43] <wxl> so far one attendee
[22:43] <tsimonq2> Because it was literally just announced
[22:43] <tsimonq2> Like
[22:43] <tsimonq2> Five mins ago
[22:44] <tsimonq2> Anyway
 docEbrown Anything on your end? :)
 Hrey1
 Slowly getting back into it.  As @HMollerCl  mentioned I've been providing a little bit of assistance in the update package, more of being a wall to bounce ideas off
 I've run a few iso tests this week and will do a few more tonight
 Hoping to provide @HMollerCl  some more substantial help and get back into the tasks I had going last year tbh
[22:47] <wxl> nice! thanks!
 👌
 thats it from me
[22:53] <tsimonq2> Cool :)
[22:53] <tsimonq2> Anyone else?
[23:00] <wxl> ok we're done here then :)
 Cyaaa
 Go team!
[23:00] <guiverc> :)
 :D
 One thing I don't like in our opnebox theme is that INACTIVE windows have minimize, maximize and close buttons that are barely noticeable. Is that per design? shouldn't we use teh same color as inactive window title  ???
[23:32] <lynorian> HmollerCl yeah I just noticed that


[00:16] <tsimonq2> *double take* *runs to finish them up*
[00:35] <tsimonq2> pleia2: did what I could today, sorry it wasn't more
[00:36] <pleia2> tsimonq2: thanks for your help
[02:50] <pleia2> going to copy over what we have and add stats
[03:17] <pleia2> Unit193: link check? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue464
[03:21] <pleia2> sent to editors, going to find food now
[03:22] <Unit193> Dead: http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-arizona/3346-xenial-xerus-(16.04-lts)-release-party/  ---  http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-tw/3352-ubuntu-16.04-release-party-@-taipei/
[04:38] <pleia2> Unit193: thanks, fixed


[19:20] <kjcole> Is it just me, or do other people want to respond to "Kubuntu" with "Gesundheit"? ;-)


[08:38] <d3s3rtdw3ll3r> hoozit
[08:50] <d3s3rtdw3ll3r> tap tap (feedback noise) hello is this thing on?? (echo)
[14:09] <d3s3rtdw3ll3r> howzit Neil
[14:15] <nlsthzn> d3s3rtdw3ll3r: Hi :)
[14:19] <d3s3rtdw3ll3r> ya been pretty lonely in here
[14:33] <nlsthzn> I can imagine :)
[14:43] <nlsthzn> d3s3rtdw3ll3r: you should join #ubuntu-za too... there is always several people hanging out
[14:44] <d3s3rtdw3ll3r> sweet Ill take a look
[14:45] <d3s3rtdw3ll3r> loaded but noone really active, its been a while since Ive IRC'd
[14:46] <d3s3rtdw3ll3r> can you still request files from bots etc?
[14:46] <d3s3rtdw3ll3r> used to be a great way of getting movies etc
[14:50] <nlsthzn> I am sure you can in the right channels for such things...
[15:48] <d3s3rtdw3ll3r> l8ers


[05:44] <darkmatter> boy... its noisy in here ;)
[05:46] <elkbuntu> deafeningly
[05:55] <troy_s> check the topic darkmatter
[05:55] <troy_s> its pretty bloody impressive
[05:55] <troy_s> first animated svg i have seen
[05:55] <darkmatter> looking
[05:56] <troy_s> it only apparently renders properly in firefox edgy
[05:56] <troy_s> feisty its refresh is busted or something
[05:56] <darkmatter> that is very impressive
[05:56] <troy_s> check the code in the svg
[05:57] <troy_s> ridiculously simple
[05:57] <Madpilot> try Opera - it animates perfectly in 9.10/Linux
[05:57] <darkmatter> looking
[05:57] <troy_s> Madpilot: It works for me in FF2
[05:58] <troy_s> But it would be nice if the bloody gnome image app rendered it properly (read animated)
[06:00] <darkmatter> cool... that code is rediculously simple
[06:00] <darkmatter> I'm keeping a copy for reference
[06:10] <darkmatter> troy_s, you've seen the current state of "MorningGlory. think I shuld etch in the scrolltroughs and the rangetroughs to match the shadows/frames?
[06:11] <troy_s> i would need to probably play with it a bit...
[06:12] <troy_s> let me do some symlinking.
[06:12] <darkmatter> k
[08:27] <nysosym> good morning :)
[08:36] <nysosym> I have an idea about a consistent design for ubuntu apps etc. . I the past i have a had a nice talk with troy_s, about devs with perfect code skills but without design skills. What we need is a design guide like OSX and Vista, well formed with many details. A new point from me, is a thing like a certificate for new apps, with a mark like "designed for ubuntu". Free for devs, tested from the community. What do u think about?
[08:37] <nysosym> For a well integration in the ubuntu desktop
[08:37] <nysosym> and a consistent user experience
[08:37] <nysosym> sry for my english
[10:14] <darkmatter> mornin' klepas
[10:19] <klepas> hey darkmatter
[10:19] <klepas> sorry i haven't been around much as of late
[10:19] <klepas> things should get started shortly
[10:20] <nysosym> r
[10:20] <nysosym> e
[10:21] <darkmatter> cool
[10:21] <nysosym> darkmatter: what?
[10:22] <darkmatter> hi nysosym... saw your comment earlier
[10:22] <darkmatter> the cool was aimed at klepas ;)
[10:22] <nysosym> and, what do u think?
[10:23] <darkmatter> I totally agree.. I've been working on similar ideas... just havent added them to wiki and/or launchpad yet
[10:23] <darkmatter> though mine was a bit more generalized than ubuntu
[10:23] <nysosym> can u tell me your idea please? :)
[10:24] <darkmatter> we basically need to develop a "hig" for application structure
[10:24] <darkmatter> much like how tango established a uniform icon theme structure using the fd.o specs
[10:25] <darkmatter> the major problem with applicationstructure is a matter of what I refer to as "widget abuse" or "misuse"
[10:26] <nysosym> yes, good point. gnome and kde have a "hig", but a very small part of devs use them
[10:26] <darkmatter> for example... how some apps use GtkTreeView where they should use "normal" widgets
[10:27] <darkmatter> or how there are inconsistancies in ui layout
[10:28] <darkmatter> like... seperators nect to scrollbars... or the use of frames, etc... even in enviroments with guidlines, like gnome... there is an inconsistant mishmash of ui elements
[10:29] <darkmatter> it would basically serve two purposes... one is obviously a more consistant ui
[10:29] <nysosym> yes, i have a look on them, i think we should improve the documentation...
[10:30] <darkmatter> the second is to ease the burden on themers... so somewhat inspired by the tango project in that regard
[10:31] <darkmatter> basically... we need to polish the hig with a secondary set of guideines... brainstorm as to what widget classes are used where
[10:32] <darkmatter> and set rules for application development to promote proper use of said widgets
[10:33] <nysosym> yes, and we need a impulsion for devs to use these guidelines
[10:33] <darkmatter> yes
[10:34] <nysosym> maybe a badge for her website for a perfect integration in human desktops :D
[10:35] <darkmatter> example of a possible element.... contents must be framed and scrollbar widgets must be located within said frame (only a thought)
[10:36] <darkmatter> example: look at an open nautilus browser window and then open a file selection dialog, or the background prefs, etc
[10:37] <darkmatter> there is an eyesore of a discrepancy in the ui... yes they are different applications... but its irrelevant.. the fact is that there is a discrepancy in the manner in which widgets are allocated
[10:38] <nysosym> fully agreed :)
[10:38] <darkmatter> there is a 'human' interface guidline but no interface design guidline
[10:39] <nysosym> it's the same with a different name, i think :D
[10:39] <nysosym> a perfect interface should be made for humans
[10:39] <darkmatter> there is... in otherwords... a guide to designing the layout... but none for the aesthetic elements
[10:39] <darkmatter> aye
[10:42] <nysosym> yes, but it's a amazing work, to finde the perfect way for all humans (old ones, childs, challenged person etc.)
[10:42] <darkmatter> yes
[10:43] <nysosym> Maybe a dynamical interface for every category, but everyone has all function, only on a other position
[10:45] <darkmatter> thats just the initial "plan"... eventually... it would be nice (f the devs accepted the guidelines) to implement a fully governed coop methodology to the actual interface design process (basically a tag of approval... a gtk+ version of w3c certification)
[10:46] <darkmatter> is already partially implemented in the hig... but theres a lot of design methodology that is uncovered... basically its left "loose"
[10:49] <nysosym> Yes, yes, we should write some important points in the wiki, for comments from every user group.
[10:49] <darkmatter> yes
[10:51] <nysosym> but for the next time, we should define the points in a small user group to have a overview and have a prefilter of bad points, where we think that are "good" point. Because i'm aren't a child ect.
[10:56] <darkmatter> see... the project I'm starting is currently just "live" mockups done with the pixmap engine to test design elements... eventually the idea is to great a universal engine (heavily documented) as well as a theme template... now... part of the difficulty in doing that lead to the though of a secondary hig as it were... simply... as long as widget allocation continues to be "abused" it will be a constant uphill battle to include hacks
[10:56] <darkmatter> and various other overrides in the code to compensate for "misbehaving" applications. even the most current engines require theme hacks for proper application coverage
[10:56] <darkmatter> if I'm not making sense just let me no ;) (3:56am here)
[10:58] <darkmatter> and even then... there are certain elements that cannot be fixed simply because of the manner in which the applications interface is designed
[10:59] <nysosym> sure, i think these make sense.
[10:59] <nysosym> But a completely new engine? Ok good way, but a huge project
[10:59] <nysosym> I think we should improve the old one, for gtk 3.0 maybe
[11:00] <darkmatter> in a modern os.... regardless whether its f/oss or not... such... forgive my bluntness... sloppy and lazy design should not exist
[11:03] <nysosym> darkmatter: i agree with u, sloppy and lazy design can't be the future. But i think we should improve the old one, maybe use good points from the old engine and integrate them in the new. From all the best :)
[11:03] <darkmatter> nysosym... part of the reason is as a template... another reason is that I actually have some ideas to polish the ui that some may consider "wasteful" or "extravagant"
[11:04] <nysosym> do u have some mockups, to present your ideas at moment?
[11:05] <darkmatter> so by creating a well organized "template" project... devs can pull what code they wish... its not about replacing the current engine (clearlooks) or about modifying it,,, its about establishing a standard... much as tango does for icons
[11:06] <darkmatter> not atm... been experimenting with some theme work... but I'll do up some hopefully this week and start a wiki page with some thoughs
[11:06] <nysosym> darkmatter: sure, but tango doesn't have a endless future, at moment there are although so many people, who doesn't like the design of it.
[11:06] <darkmatter> brb... need to start a pot of coffee
[11:07] <nysosym> at moment tango looks very cool, but in a few years it looks like old and boring.
[11:07] <nysosym> ok, have fun ;)
[11:08] <nysosym> and i think this could although be the problem of a new interface design
[11:10] <nysosym> have a look on the new multitouch screen, i think that's a new standard and we should have a solution to use the engine for these although. I love the Multiscreen idea, and these is the near future.
[11:11] <nysosym> What we need is more dynamic in every interface, for every situation.
[11:14] <darkmatter> nysosym... its not about whether or not its "cool" or if it has an "endless future"... the desktop as we know it is constantly evolving and eventually everything "ends"... even gnome as we know it now will eventually go through a chrysalis  and become something we dont regognize... but the important part is that the strengths of the preceeding generation ar incorporated into the next
[11:16] <darkmatter> dynamic is ok... to a point... if a ui is to dynamic, it adds unnecessary complexity... and theres an old saying that definitely hold true... especially for software... something along the lines of "the more complex the equipment, the easier it breaks"
[11:16] <darkmatter> ;)
[11:17] <darkmatter> brb... xchats behaving badly
[11:18] <nysosym> darkmatter: sure, sry but, have u seen the multitouch screens in action? The interface what we actual use, is senseless for these technique.
[11:19] <darkmatter> nysosym.... true... but dont get me started on the other project I'm planning ;)
[11:20] <darkmatter> it throws the desktop metaphor out the window then rolls over it with a semi
[11:20] <darkmatter> :P
[11:22] <nysosym> don't get me wrong, i have although the meaning to improve the present desktop a lot. But we must have a look in the near future, i give the multitouch system 5 years to be a standard on the market.
[11:22] <nysosym> And what are 5 years? nothing ^^
[11:23] <andreasn> of course the Tango style guidelines won't live for ever, heck, I guess the desktop metaphor is dead in a couple of years
[11:23] <andreasn> but it's good to have something for ISVs and ISD _now_
[11:24] <darkmatter> I've been working it out with a friend of mine who is an uber programmer (as in... he basically makes the vast majority of developers look like infants ;))... its literally ui zen.... but considering "zen" has been overused to the point of being cliched and boring... the current working title is TiNZ (TiNZ is Not Zen) :P
[11:26] <nysosym> darkmatter: nice, when i can help u, u know where u can find me :D
[11:26] <darkmatter> lol
[11:26] <darkmatter> ;)
[11:26] <nysosym> that's not a joke ^^
[11:27] <darkmatter> I know... its just that enthusiasm makes me giddy :P
[11:27] <darkmatter> haha
[11:28] <nysosym> why? When we wanna improve the current desktop, we need a lot of users :D
[11:31] <darkmatter> yes... but the reason it makes me giddy, is that after hearing "but thats to much work" on a regular basis from the lax sort... its nice to here a "right on!" type of response...
[11:31] <darkmatter> positive is a good thing
[11:34] <nysosym> darkmatter: ohh i didn't say that these to much work, i said that's a lot of work. That's a different, at moment i have many time to help and i love it to help project, when i can.
[11:36] <darkmatter> the funny thing is that the initial work would be backward compatible... TiNZ as it stands in concept would integrate with current generation applications and the like (kbd an mouse manipulation, etc)... and I _though_ I had a team several months back... we _were_ going to work on the "proof of concept" system plugins... but the volunteers dropped out at the last (and thus most inconvenient) opportunity... that was a big disappointm
[11:36] <darkmatter> ent
[11:37] <darkmatter> nysosym, I know you never said that... and thats a good thing... the reference was to previous experience... for as I discovered... most my fellow devs are inherently lazy ;)
[11:37] <darkmatter> go figure
[11:37] <darkmatter> :P
[11:39] <darkmatter> anyway.. kinda post-<whatever>, but good morning/afternoon/evening andreasn
[11:39] <andreasn> hi there darkmatter
[11:40] <nysosym> darkmatter: i understand your problems, very good, how many volunteers do u have at moment?
[11:40] <darkmatter> lol... atm just a few interested parties and my guru friend
[11:40] <nysosym> Ohh hi andreasn, sry for my ignorance, but i heavily busy by translation the text of darkmatter...
[11:41] <andreasn> I'm busy with work anyway, so I don't really have time to chat. :)
[11:42] <darkmatter> have a guy thats interested in the webdev stuff... a few interested in the art end... but not many interested in actually helping to code the core
[11:42] <darkmatter> like I said... lazy ;)
[11:42] <nysosym> darkmatter: maybe we should make some ads, because there a only a very little circle of people who thinking on that project :)
[11:43] <nysosym> darkmatter: ok, i'm aren't a coder (what a wonder ^^), i'm mainly the design type :D
[11:43] <darkmatter> yeah... I just need to make a few rough mockups n stuff for a general brainstorm starting point.
[11:43] <darkmatter> thats fine
[11:43] <darkmatter> design is a big part of development
[11:43] <darkmatter> actually... the biggest
[11:44] <nysosym> ok thats goog, maybe u should give me your jabber id, if u had some ;)
[11:45] <darkmatter> one of the guys interested gave me an idea though.... and I agree... we need an oss community dedicated to "progressive interface design"
[11:45] <darkmatter> ahhh... still need to reg a jabber id
[11:45] <nysosym> hehe no problem :D
[11:47] <nysosym> darkmatter: yes, but we need a web presence, to find new people.
[11:47] <darkmatter> yes
[11:47] <darkmatter> thats part of the ideabehind starting a site
[11:48] <nysosym> ok, you said that u have a one with webdev skills? :D
[11:49] <darkmatter> yup
[11:50] <nysosym> what's wrong, u need a server?
[11:50] <darkmatter> basically
[11:51] <darkmatter> on topic of ui progression
[11:51] <darkmatter> I've had shouting matches with devs that completely lack any knowledge of user psychology
[11:52] <darkmatter> I mean... I code myself... technically a dev n all.. just no "mainstream product" as it were
[11:53] <nysosym> darkmatter: i think http://www.berlios.de/index.php.en is a good webseite to host freely :D
[11:53] <darkmatter> but seriously.... even using current api... you can completely transform the user experience without the need to break api compatibility an such
[11:54] <darkmatter> most devs _cannot_ come to grips with that concept
[11:54] <darkmatter> nysosym, lol... why didnt I think of berlios
[11:55] <nysosym> hehe :D
[11:55] <darkmatter> user psychology is _the_ paramount element
[11:56] <darkmatter> if you create metaphors that are user centric... even if they are only perceived as such... it creates the desired effect
[11:57] <darkmatter> thats the first stage.... basically hybridization of the environment
[11:57] <darkmatter> that can be done _NOW_ without major work or manhours
[11:58] <darkmatter> stage two is were the real work begins... thats when you begin rewriting api at a core level
[11:58] <nysosym> hmm that's aren't easy, ok i can make an interface that's perfectly matches for my interests
[11:59] <nysosym> but a interface for all :D
[12:00] <nysosym> what would be do, create a new interface on GTK+ a completely new desktop, with new widgets, menus ect.?
[12:00] <nysosym> be=we
[12:01] <darkmatter> lol.... I'm referring to "proof of concept"...  example... you can... in a matter of minutes... create an apparently windowless environment using metacity... and I'm serious... I've tried
[12:01] <darkmatter> user psychology is amazing
[12:01] <darkmatter> human perception... period. thats the primary element
[12:02] <darkmatter> ahhh.... partly create a new ui
[12:02] <nysosym> matter of minutes is easy to say :D
[12:03] <nysosym> what we need, are some ground ideas
[12:03] <darkmatter> basically... a "primary" interface that... at first... is simply an extension designed to integrate with the current environment (gnome, xfce, whatever)
[12:04] <nysosym> Hmm ok, therefore i should use current gtk+ elements
[12:05] <darkmatter> its user centric.... and from the users viewpoint... activity focused (basically.... in the mindset of the user, it puts there data, or "activity" as it were... first and foremost)
[12:06] <darkmatter> nysosym, yes... although custom widgets may be needed to an extent... its best at first to use existing elements
[12:07] <nysosym> well, what would we use from the old interface, panels, a dock like osx, startmenu ect.?
[12:08] <darkmatter> so... as I was saying about putting the activity first.... we'd use (as a loose example) "Surf the Internet", "Explore the Web" or something similar in place of opening a browser
[12:10] <darkmatter> nysosym, at first... the only old inteface would really be the applications.... the concept (thus far... just a starting point), is to create an "activity center" (basically a shelf/wharf or whatever name you want to refer to it as and its "library" component)
[12:11] <darkmatter> it would initially offer a "hybrid mode" (would be 'standard' with the "purebreed" as the "optional" config) to aid in user migration
[12:12] <darkmatter> the hybrid mode would have a 'menu' after a fashion
[12:12] <nysosym> ok i understand a interface like the "one laptop per child" project or these one http://www.focus.de/digital/pc/senioren-pc_aid_21615.html?interface=galerie
[12:13] <nysosym> ok, i need some food :D
[12:13] <nysosym> brb
[12:13] <darkmatter> basically a panel with the most common activites and library shortcuts, some form of list for open documents etc
[12:13] <darkmatter> kk
[12:16] <darkmatter> the purebred would be quite different... an interactive shelf "basically" composed of 'miniapps'... that would serve as both a quick interface and a notification center (and excuse the following poor analogy... it doesnt do the concept justice), the miniapps or whatever the end up being referred to would be somewhat 'widget like'
[12:21] <darkmatter> this shelf would not use a traditional menu... but would make exclusive use of the "library"
[12:22] <darkmatter> this is where it gets interesting... so I'll wait for you to return before I continue babbling ;)
[12:36] <klepas> darkmatter: dude, will you be on in like 2 hours?
[12:36] <darkmatter> klepas, probably be sleepin'... why?
[12:38] <klepas> bugger
[12:38] <klepas> finally freed of some work and wanted to chat :)
[12:39] <darkmatter> lol
[12:39] <darkmatter> definitely bugger
[12:49] <darkmatter> klepas, I can "attempt" to stay awake long enough to chat... but no promises... I'm just drained from my medical trip and should have actually been asleep several hours ago ;)
[12:51] <kwwii> moin
[12:52] <kwwii> anyone feel like making an inoc?
[12:52] <kwwii> s/inoc/icon
[12:52] <kwwii> apport needs an icon (small sizes mainly)
[01:00] <kwwii> sent a mail to the list, so check that for more informaiton
[01:04] <nysosym> darkmatter: i thinking on u, but i must go to work now.
[01:04] <nysosym> have a nice day, and thx for conversation
[01:05] <darkmatter> ok.. have a good day :)
[02:12] <klepas> darkmatter: rar
[02:13] <darkmatter> yo'
[02:14] <klepas> what's the time for you?
[02:14] <klepas> 5 AM? :P
[02:16] <darkmatter> lol
[02:16] <darkmatter> actually
[02:16] <darkmatter> its 7:16
[02:16] <darkmatter> am
[02:16] <darkmatter> :P
[02:17] <darkmatter> just doin' some sketchin; in front of the puter
[02:17] <klepas> all nighter, eh?
[02:18] <klepas> tablet?
[02:18] <darkmatter> yeah... backsides to sore to sleep... lump seating on the bus
[02:18] <darkmatter> nope
[02:18] <darkmatter> sketchbook
[02:18] <darkmatter> ;)
[02:18] <klepas> i need to get back into that
[02:18] <klepas> sort of lost it all when i got the computer and college started
[02:18] <klepas> on that note, final year is about to begin monday
[02:18] <klepas> d'oh :(
[02:20] <darkmatter> I do digital art.. but mostly for fun atm.. until I get a decent tablet... my first love was always traditional... and I need that feedback.. to feel something under my fingers... a mouse is ok... but slow.. just doesnt cut it for me speed wise
[02:20] <darkmatter> ahhh.. final year eh?
[02:20] <klepas> i know exactly what you mean
[02:20] <klepas> yea man
[02:20] <klepas> i have a tablet though
[02:20] <klepas> that i've neglected too
[02:21] <klepas> Wacom Intuos3 A5-wide
[02:21] <klepas> <3 it
[02:21] <darkmatter> ahh
[02:21] <darkmatter> I want a wacom
[02:21] <darkmatter> badly
[02:21] <darkmatter> they're just awesome
[02:21] <klepas> if you work on a widescreen
[02:21] <klepas> get a wide tablet
[02:21] <klepas> it's sort of a must
[02:21] <darkmatter> played with one once.. got hooked
[02:21] <klepas> for aspect-ratio-goodness
[02:21] <klepas> mhh
[02:21] <darkmatter> yup
[02:21] <klepas> need to get xmodmap to map my buttons to functions
[02:22] <darkmatter> hmmm... even one of the cheap lil wacoms would work ftm... I think the puter shop has a few in stock
[02:23] <klepas> yea
[02:23] <klepas> i got the one i have as a gift
[02:23] <klepas> i would have gone much smaller otherwise
[02:23] <darkmatter> then I can spit out designs n whatnot at warp speed
[02:23] <klepas> :)
[02:23] <klepas> most of my work is done in inkscape though atm
[02:24] <klepas> and it's user interface/concept/web design/web app work
[02:24] <klepas> so a tablet is more for my own leisure
[02:24] <darkmatter> the mouse is the moost handicapped interface ever designed.... and I'm not strictly referring to its handicap with gfx utils
[02:24] <darkmatter> cool
[02:25] <darkmatter> most of myui concept is on paper... in prismacolor...lol
[02:25] <klepas> <3 my new logitech though :P
[02:26] <klepas> np: Various artists - Eyerer & Laib - The chord (Original Mix)
[02:26] <darkmatter> translatng it with a mouse is slow, staged and tedious
[02:26] <darkmatter> yeah.. I love my logi too
[02:26] <darkmatter> best mice imho
[02:27] <darkmatter> comfy and relatively ergonomic
[02:27] <klepas> http://umart.net/au/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=5&products_id=102347 <-- after 8 months of that
[02:28] <darkmatter> starting another to theme experiments while I continue work on MorningGlory
[02:28] <klepas> http://umart.net/au/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=5&products_id=102982 <-- to that
[02:28] <klepas> G7 wireless :)
[02:28] <klepas> http://umart.net/au/images/logg7.jpg
[02:28] <darkmatter> nice
[02:29] <klepas> mv to pm
[03:38] <troy_s> wow darkmatter... that's a lot of text :)
[03:41] <darkmatter> troy_s, yup... and its not getting finished till nysosym's back
[03:41] <darkmatter> :P
[03:46] <troy_s> what is that in relationship to?
[03:48] <troy_s> "basically a panel with the most common activites and library shortcuts," probably should adhere to the 7+-2
[03:48] <troy_s> heading towards 5
[03:50] <troy_s> and " if you create metaphors that are user centric... even if they are only perceived as such..." has some issues culturally
[03:50] <troy_s> the metaphors are language and cultural based
[03:51] <troy_s> so ideally gnome integrates the language dependencies into the overarching design scheme
[04:16] <troy_s> kwwii did you get those palette theory blocks?
[04:16] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I was just looking through my mail
[04:16] <kwwii> nifty stuff
[04:17] <troy_s> Good... hopefully they are self explanatory
[04:17] <troy_s> IIRC that was the tan in question correct?
[04:17] <troy_s> If you have another tan you are thinking of, just forward me the hex values.
[04:17] <kwwii> troy_s: it was right on the money
[04:18] <kwwii> today is my birthday, so I am kinda busy...going out for dinner soon
[04:18] <troy_s> Woot.
[04:18] <troy_s> Happy birfday
[04:18] <kwwii> thanks man
[04:19] <troy_s> By the way, those strips don't quite do justice to the idea that you can have a central base color (obviously)
[04:19] <kwwii> true
[04:19] <troy_s> A good thing to try is to take your base color strip one side down into a third, and take 2/3s of it
[04:19] <troy_s> then 1/3 of the last
[04:19] <troy_s> so you get a feel for a basic color.
[04:20] <kwwii> cool, I'll need to play around with them to get a good feeling of how they work out
[04:56] <troy_s> darkmatter: "its not about replacing the current engine (clearlooks) or about modifying it,,, its about establishing a standard... much as tango does for icons"
[04:56] <troy_s> The problem with that is that Icons are completely rooted in aesthetic.
[04:56] <andreasn> kwwii: happy birthday!
[04:56] <troy_s> You can't expect Tango to meet the needs of any group without considering that the aesthetic is inherent to the set.
[04:56] <troy_s> Meaning it simply won't work for some implmentations.
[04:57] <troy_s> I was toying with a python script that twiddles values in the SVG xml to have a 'dynamic' icon set, but it requires the icons to have certain colour constants in it the same way that transparency was handled in the early days of video games (palette index 255 for example)
[04:58] <troy_s> darkmatter:  That said, aesthetics completely aside, the issue you raise with _consistent_ application of user interface elements based on a target audience would be a very good thing to formalize in a document.
[04:59] <andreasn> all I want to have is sane interfaces that makes my customers users get their work done :)
[04:59] <troy_s> I suppose the fundamental issue is how to arrange it -- as some target audiences are hybrid types.
[04:59] <troy_s> andreasn: that's certainly a factor, but aesthetics is another real factor
[04:59] <troy_s> andreasn: and the fundamental problem is that icons are now very very obsolete -- you can't expect a new user or even a familiar user to identify a purpose based on icon
[05:00] <troy_s> it is simply impossible considering the breadth and complexity of the software landscape
[05:00] <troy_s> which is why I am a big believer in interface elements similar to Deskbar -- use the semantics of language.
[05:00] <andreasn> yes developers put too many icons in their interfaces to make them pretty?
[05:00] <troy_s> yes
[05:00] <troy_s> and the fact that
[05:00] <troy_s> icon artists tend to be folks building resumes
[05:01] <troy_s> which is completely defeatest in terms of strict functionality
[05:01] <troy_s> icons shouldn't be minor works of fine art no more than roadsigns are
[05:01] <andreasn> agreed
[05:02] <andreasn> and you want your roadsigns to be in some particular style?
[05:02] <troy_s> I think what would be nice is an attempt to address the motifs/memes/metaphors -- but even that is complicated when you consider the scope of contemporary software in the contexts of disabilities, ethnicities, and trends.
[05:02] <troy_s> andreasn: If we could somehow come up with a way to nerf the aesthetics of icons (which I don't see happening) then yes.
[05:02] <troy_s> erm
[05:02] <troy_s> no -- ;)
[05:02] <troy_s> It would be nice if we could establish glyphs for a particular size that are clear and consistent.
[05:03] <troy_s> As soon as you add in colour and stylings though, they take on aesthetics.
[05:03] <troy_s> My only qualm with Tango is that ultimately, it is aesthetic.
[05:03] <troy_s> Greetings coz_
[05:04] <coz_> troy_s, hey guy thought I wold try this tim eof the day:)
[05:04] <troy_s> You missed quite an interesting discussion on interface earlier.
[05:04] <troy_s> which is a good reason to idle and log the channel :)
[05:04] <coz_> oh? ok i will have to do that
[05:04] <andreasn> well, I would say it's a about making stuff more predictable for ISVs
[05:04] <troy_s> andreasn: ?
[05:05] <troy_s> andreasn: How can you make it predictable and aesthetically integrated?
[05:05] <troy_s> andreasn: To draw an analogy, I suppose a set of overalls would do for a wedding as you have pockets for the rings, loose fitting for the length of the event, etc.
[05:06] <troy_s> andreasn: but in terms of aesthetics, it is far from optimal (not ruling out that someone might have an overall based wedding ;) )
[05:06] <coz_> troy_s, i would go to that wedding :)
[05:06] <andreasn> a wedding is not a interface
[05:06] <troy_s> andreasn: An interface isn't _simply_ a control set anymore
[05:06] <troy_s> Arguably a computer is an interface on some level
[05:06] <troy_s> and computers are far more important in terms of lifestyle than they ever have been.
[05:07] <troy_s> In a similar comparison, consider cell phones and their evolution from the brick style to the xxx style.
[05:07] <coz_> andreasn, what are your views on an interface
[05:08] <troy_s> It is a simple fact that people choose computing based on stylistic choices -- hence the "I'm a mac, I'm a pc" advertising campaign.
[05:08] <coz_> silly mac people :)
[05:08] <troy_s> We must accept that fundamentally, computing is something much more than gadgetry -- they are becoming reflective of the beings that utilize them -- much like clothing etc.
[05:08] <troy_s> coz_ Preaching to the choir.
[05:08] <troy_s> ;)
[05:08] <coz_> lol
[05:08] <andreasn> coz_: well, right now I think it's pretty good to have a set of style guidelines that my customers that produce interfaces for letting people get their work done is a good thing
[05:09] <troy_s> andreasn: That is very ... utopian.
[05:09] <troy_s> in practical terms, what does that imply?
[05:09] <coz_> andreasn, what is it you and your customers do , i was absent from the origninal discussion
[05:09] <troy_s> Does that include a set of design guidelines that tell them how to organize data in a GUI etc.?
[05:09] <andreasn> that the platform is slightly more predictable
[05:10] <andreasn> coz_: applications
[05:10] <troy_s> andreasn: Are you speaking purely of web based dynamics?
[05:10] <coz_> andreasn, any particular type of applications
[05:10] <troy_s> andreasn: or for computing as a whole?
[05:10] <andreasn> troy_s: like Human Interface Guidelines?
[05:10] <troy_s> andreasn: those are a load of rubbish.
[05:10] <troy_s> andreasn: If you read through them, they are written in a completely unrealistic scope.
[05:11] <andreasn> well, they are good, as you don't need to relearn stuff a million times
[05:11] <troy_s> andreasn: From a distinctly 'westernized' vantage I might add... (although LTR is getting a little more attention.)
[05:11] <troy_s> If they met the needs of a particular audience they would be good -- which they do -- but they seem to ignore the fact that there are distinct classes of audience.
[05:11] <troy_s> No one interface guideline will work for any more than a percentage of targets.
[05:12] <coz_> troy_s, I have a problem with software that is geared towrds classes of people
[05:12] <coz_> ot interfaces for that matter
[05:12] <troy_s> It is simply unrealistic, useless, and completely misleading.  Not to mention that it also waters down the fact that certain people have certain needs, and that those needs must be addressed or else you risk leaving _that_ audience with a half assed implementation.
[05:12] <troy_s> coz_ Then you should examine languages role in all of this
[05:12] <andreasn> well, of course you need to have target audiences for you application
[05:12] <troy_s> languages, culture, abilities, etc... all different classes.
[05:13] <troy_s> Not to mention age.
[05:13] <coz_> troy_s, oh I see what you mean .... I wouldnt classify that as classes
[05:13] <troy_s> andreasn: Exactly.  And that audience will have needs that _might_ be in complete contrast to one of the established 'guidelines'
[05:13] <coz_> troy_s, age?
[05:13] <troy_s> coz_ Age -- a child will have motor differences as well as logical difference in how they approach an interface.
[05:14] <coz_> troy_s, yes i agree I used to teach elemetary school but
[05:14] <troy_s> coz_ Just as an elderly person would have motor, possible visual, audio, etc. differences.  And also a different level of interface paradigm expectation.
[05:14] <PingunZ> troy_s, have you seen my new beryl theme ?
[05:14] <coz_> troy_s, ooo new beryl theme?
[05:14] <troy_s> We need to figure out a way to generate 'layers' based on particular needs... that could perhaps be stacked to meet the needs of a given target audience.
[05:14] <troy_s> PingunZ: no.
[05:14] <PingunZ> troy_s, http://pingunz.googlepages.com/stylish.jpeg
[05:14] <andreasn> you could probably design a specific interface for everyone of your users, but is it practically possible?
[05:15] <coz_> andreasn, no it is not practical
[05:15] <troy_s> andreasn: Well that is part of the fundamental problem isn't it...
[05:15] <PingunZ> troy_s, like it ? :)
[05:15] <troy_s> that approach is dead
[05:15] <troy_s> PingunZ: little windows blue vistaish for my aesthetic.  But it certainly is clean looking.
[05:16] <troy_s> andreasn: Do you think there is a way to develop smaller subsets and apply 'design guidelines'?
[05:16] <PingunZ> why does everyone say it's vista ish ? it _isn't_
[05:16] <troy_s> For example, a switch that you toggle for 'motor impairment', 'language', etc.
[05:16] <troy_s> PingunZ: Blue and grey
[05:16] <andreasn> I think using personas more would help GNOME a lot
[05:16] <PingunZ> troy_s, blue ?
[05:16] <coz_> PingunZ, I think the way you applied the buttons gives people the imprssion of vista but I reallt don't see that myself
[05:16] <troy_s> PingunZ: The buttons are particularly vista.  The blue is Windows/OSX.  The grey is somewhere in the middle.
[05:17] <troy_s> PingunZ: If you step back 10 feet and compare it with another screenshot, you will see what I mean.
[05:17] <troy_s> andreasn: Explain
[05:17] <troy_s> andreasn: It sounds interesting.
[05:17] <PingunZ> sheesh
[05:17] <troy_s> lol
[05:17] <coz_> andreasn, I would also like an explanation
[05:17] <andreasn> Alan Cooper discusses it in "Inmates"
[05:17] <troy_s> andreasn: is that a reference work?  I never have heard of it.
[05:18] <troy_s> andreasn: or fiction.
[05:18] <coz_> andreasn, can we hear your own words about it
[05:18] <andreasn> can't remember if he does it in About Face
[05:18] <andreasn> http://www.amazon.com/Inmates-Are-Running-Asylum-Products/dp/0672326140/sr=8-1/qid=1170433102/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9766325-5571011?ie=UTF8&s=books
[05:18] <coz_> andreasn, I have just written letters to gnome, and had them answered about some of their approaches but I would like to know what you meant abaout personas
[05:19] <coz_> andreasn, more user input?
[05:19] <andreasn> coz_: made up characters that help you remember who you're designing for
[05:19] <andreasn> http://www.amazon.com/About-Face-2-0-Essentials-Interaction/dp/0764526413/sr=8-1/qid=1170433129/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9766325-5571011?ie=UTF8&s=books
[05:19] <coz_> andreasn, well then i agree with you
[05:19] <andreasn> that's About Face 2.0, 3.0 should be out soon
[05:20] <andreasn> there is also a quite nice book by Jef Raskin called "The Humane Interface"
[05:20] <coz_> andreasn, one of the problems I have encountered with programmers , of the old school of thinking, is that they make applications for themselves not for users
[05:20] <andreasn> in witch Jef says that icons are stupid
[05:21] <andreasn> coz_: that and a lot of "but what if...'s" :)
[05:21] <andreasn> anyway, regarding icons, we have made sure that everything is more themable now, even in applications like evince and file-roller
[05:21] <coz_> andreasn, well I like quin sotrms approach  that the line between programmer anduser is very blurred
[05:21] <coz_> quin storm
[05:21] <andreasn> someone just have to draw them though
[05:22] <coz_> andreasn, then let it be the user
[05:22] <coz_> that draws the line
[05:22] <andreasn> no, I mean the icons for evince and file-roller and stuff
[05:22] <andreasn> and epy as well
[05:22] <andreasn> and some other apps
[05:22] <andreasn> well, whatever, I need to run now
[05:22] <andreasn> later!
[05:22] <coz_> ok I am getting general and you guys are a little more specific about this ok
[05:23] <andreasn> http://www.amazon.com/Humane-Interface-Directions-Designing-Interactive/dp/0201379376/sr=8-1/qid=1170433385/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9766325-5571011?ie=UTF8&s=books
[05:23] <andreasn> raskins book
[05:29] <coz_> well I find that talking about things such as this is fine but I prefer action... howver I know not what action to take
[05:53] <troy_s> read raskins
[06:34] <troy_s> wtf
[06:34] <troy_s> where the feck is gnome.applet bindings in python
[07:45] <lizardking> hi
[07:59] <lizardking_> Hi
[08:00] <lizardking_> Whos is there?
[08:01] <lizardking_> troy_s: I ask my friends that is a lawyer
[08:01] <troy_s> and?
[08:02] <lizardking_> troy_s: He tell me that There would be andy problem because art-theming and drink/food are classificated are different sectors. The trademark is applied only in the in similar category (food drink etc)
[08:03] <troy_s> good luck defending that one though..
[08:03] <troy_s> :)
[08:04] <lizardking_> troy_s: However he tells me that btw the risk of getting in trouble is 0% if I change the name
[08:04] <troy_s> exactly :)
[08:04] <lizardking_> troy_s: Do you have any news from your wife?
[08:04] <troy_s> not yet
[08:05] <troy_s> but again, that is why you hire lawyers -- they fight it out
[08:05] <troy_s> ultimately, there is the possibility for trouble
[08:05] <troy_s> i would just avoid it :)
[08:06] <lizardking_> troy_s: I'm just thinking "which" name
[08:06] <lizardking_> troy_s: OranSun?
[08:06] <troy_s> OrangeSoda is pretty relevant no?
[08:06] <lizardking_> troy_s: Daniel tells me how to change the product in launchpad
[08:06] <lizardking_> troy_s: OrangeSoda is good but it is a TM too
[08:06] <troy_s> yes it is quite easy
[08:07] <troy_s> yes but completely unrelated to a colour scheme etc.
[08:09] <lizardking_> troy_s: not exactly. the logo is dark orange and the service provided is ONLINE marketing
[08:09] <troy_s> completely unrelated --
[08:09] <troy_s> the issue is the fact that you used oransoda and used that as the base for the colour scheme
[08:09] <troy_s> which _was_ related
[08:09] <troy_s> orangesoda is just a term
[08:09] <troy_s> it happens to also be a name
[08:09] <troy_s> but they are completely unreleated in terms of colour etc...
[08:10] <lizardking_> troy_s: So, also italian Oransoda drink is completly unrelated. I did not pick the color from the oransoda italian logo.
[08:10] <troy_s> but again, that would be a lawyer thing.
[08:10] <troy_s> Well the logo orange is close isn't it?
[08:10] <lizardking_> troy_s: I use darker tonality some times in my theme in the wallapaper :)
[08:10] <troy_s> ah.
[08:10] <troy_s> well then i guess it isn't an issue
[08:10] <troy_s> my logic was that OranSoda doesn't exist
[08:10] <troy_s> but OrangeSoda does
[08:11] <troy_s> Orange Soda is an actual thing
[08:11] <troy_s> whereas OranSoda can mean nothing but the soft drink in Italy.
[08:12] <troy_s> as in Orange Soda is a generic object
[08:12] <troy_s> OranSoda can be nothing but something akin to Pepsi
[09:29] <lizardking_> Hi
[09:29] <lizardking_> troy_s: we
[09:30] <troy_s> ?
[09:30] <lizardking_> troy_s: I made a survey for renaming my theme
[09:30] <lizardking_> troy_s: http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=9o1z70uepat89xd262494
[09:31] <troy_s> lol
[09:31] <lizardking_> troy_s: TangerinSoda
[09:32] <troy_s> gah
[09:32] <lizardking_> troy_s: eheh
[09:32] <lizardking_> troy_s: TangerSoda
[09:33] <lizardking_> AranSoda
[09:33] <lizardking_> Arancia is the orange fruit in italian
[09:33] <lizardking_> :D
[09:34] <troy_s> ALongWalkInARoundaboutWayToGetToTheFactThatThisIsAnOrangeLook
[09:34] <troy_s> ;)
[09:36] <lizardking_> troy_s: I'm a genious. OrunSoda
[09:36] <lizardking_> how did you spell it?
[09:36] <troy_s> ?
[09:36] <lizardking_> O run Soda
[09:36] <troy_s> Orange?
[09:36] <lizardking_> O run Soda -> oransoda
[09:37] <troy_s> What is an oran?
[09:37] <troy_s> or an orun for that matter?
[09:37] <troy_s> lol
[09:37] <lizardking_> troy_s: it is nothing
[09:37] <lizardking_> troy_s: Just the pronunce of orun is like oran
[09:37] <lizardking_> if you say running.. hihihi
[09:39] <lizardking_> troy_s: in spanish it's cool http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naranja_(fruto)
[09:39] <lizardking_> NaranSoda
[10:25] <msikma> I don't get it. a petition to name his theme without showing what it even looks like.
[11:43] <troy_s> wb darkmatter
[11:43] <darkmatter> afternoon troy_s


 yea whatever
[00:31] <bazhang> stellar support, as per the usual
[00:33] <bazhang> perhaps irc could have a 'concurrently connected to yahoo chats' feature
[01:50] <bazhang> psychoticwarrior, hi
[01:50] <psychoticwarrior> hey man
[01:50] <bazhang> thanks for joining here
[01:50] <psychoticwarrior> no problem
[01:50] <psychoticwarrior> ill brb
[01:59] <bazhang> psychoticwarrior, you there?
[02:29] <psychoticwarrior> i am now
[02:29] <psychoticwarrior> just ran an errand
[02:31] <bazhang> psychoticwarrior, you need to stay ontopic, and not randomly 'works for me' in #ubuntu
[02:31] <bazhang> psychoticwarrior, I have said this to you before
[02:32] <psychoticwarrior> ok sounds good
[02:32] <bazhang> psychoticwarrior, additionally, no need to say anything if you have no idea
[02:33] <bazhang> such as 14.04 being not supported,
[02:34] <psychoticwarrior> ok bro you got the point across
[02:34] <bazhang> psychoticwarrior, better to help fix what is wrong with a still very much supported release, then say 'get 17.04' as you did
[02:35] <psychoticwarrior> ok
[02:35] <psychoticwarrior> true
[02:35] <psychoticwarrior> im still learning
[02:36] <psychoticwarrior> i like to help ppl as learn as well
[02:36] <bazhang> psychoticwarrior, and I asked you to take the offtopic chatter elsewhere, and you answered 'why'
[02:39] <bazhang> oh quit and PMd now
[02:39] <bazhang> super
[02:48] <Jordan_U> @mark psychoticwarrior given a talk about not giving advice when they are not actually knowledgeable in the given area (because the statements and advice given were wrong) and staying on topic.


[00:22] <brousch> semantic.gs is nice
[00:23] <brousch> got a responsive fluid layout going with no grid crap in the html
[00:24] <rick_h> I'm briliant, don't rm my nosetests.xml file and somehow the nosetests build step got erased
[00:24] <rick_h> so for weeks been saying all tests are fine by using the old nosetests.xml files
[00:53] <snap-l> rick_h: Yeah, boneheaded moves appear to be the norm
[00:54] <rick_h> been that kind of day...
[00:54] <rick_h> drinking lots of wine to compensate
[00:54] <rick_h> wheeee
[00:54] <snap-l> It makes you smarter.
[00:54] <rick_h> definitely
[00:55] <rick_h> and type better
[00:57] <rick_h> how's everyone else's friday night going?
[00:58] <snap-l> Putting together OMC 45
[00:58] <snap-l> With a glass of port
[00:58] <rick_h> nice
[01:10] <snap-l> http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/2012/04/13/white-trash-repairs-os-wars/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ThereIFixedIt+%28There%2C+I+Fixed+It.%29
[03:35] <snap-l> Streamlined a lot of putting together OMC
[03:35] <snap-l> not the actual show, but building the episode from a .wav file
[11:15] <rick_h> snap-l: that's good, more time for the fun part, less for the busy work
[11:41] <rick_h> 281689
[13:18] <rick_h> _stink__: so the doors are no match for michael any more. He's opening them all today :/
[13:19] <rick_h> and now that he's not in his crib, I fear waking up to him walking in my room grabbing my face and telling me to do something
[13:21] <rick_h> 128831
[14:27] <_stink__> rick_h: haha!
[14:27] <_stink__> yikes!
[14:27] <_stink__> rick_h: how has the transition to big bed gone?
[14:58] <rick_h> _stink_: good, he's lost some stuff animals off the edge, but he's actually staying pretty much put
[15:02] <rick_h> brousch: http://www.craigkerstiens.com/2012/04/13/apps_to_services/ here you go, part of why I don't like django
[15:02] <rick_h> I'm a fan of the services model, see bookie_readable
[15:05] <JonEdney> I'm still prettry new to Ubuntu and can't really contribute much currently, but would eventually like to.  The Michigan events, is there a fee for non-members to attend?
[15:05] <rick_h> definitely
[15:06] <rick_h> JonEdney: there's the release part coming up at Penguicon, I guess is that still going to be free snap-l ?
[15:06] <rick_h> snap-l: since it's in a room this year?
[15:06] <rick_h> JonEdney: but many of us meet up at mug.org meetings, and coffeehousecoders meetings which are free
[15:07] <JonEdney> Yeah I see a few of those, which is very interesting.  I may be making some strong attempts to attend these, I was introduced to Ubuntu about 2 months ago and just love everything the community is about.
[15:09] <rick_h> JonEdney: awesome, are you in the SE mi area?
[15:10] <JonEdney> Yeah, I'm in Westland
[15:20] <rick_h> JonEdney: very cool, well welcome to the ubuntu side of things
[15:26] <rick_h> man, <3 offlineimap but when it locks up and I don't notice...fun catchup time
[15:47] <greg-g> JonEdney: welcome to the channel. Feel free to hang around and meet us all.
[15:47] <greg-g> JonEdney: most live in SE Mich, some out west, I'm actually in San Francisco (just moved from Ann Arbor this summer)
[16:07] <JonEdney> Very awesome, I work for a web hosting company in Ann Arbor.
[16:10] <greg-g> JonEdney: ArborNet?
[16:16] <jcastro> rick_h: gear come in yet?
[16:18] <greg-g> jcastro: btw, the shopping cart logo thing for the Charms wiki page is adorable :) (yes, I haven't looked into that documentation much yet)
[16:18] <greg-g> it made me smile, I like that
[16:32] <rick_h> jcastro: shaving gear? no, monday
[16:35] <JonEdney> greg-g: A2 Hosting actually, sorry was on the phone.
[16:35] <rick_h> ah cool, I think A2 hosting is sponsoring MUG
[16:36] <rick_h> mmm, hack or nap...hack or nap. The question that arises every time the boy goes down for nap time
[16:44] <greg-g> hack+coffee
[16:59] <greg-g> alright, time for me to join the facial hair party and look for a new beard trimmer
[17:06] <rick_h> i've not had good luck with that
[17:07] <rick_h> rocking the argparse subcommands
[17:07] <rick_h> bookie_api invites list
[17:07] <rick_h> bookie invites set -u admin -i 999
[17:07] <rick_h> bwuhahaha
[17:08] <jrwren> gnome should just admit that copy/paste in terminal is a mistake and change back to copy on selection and paste w/middle or right click
[17:08] <rick_h> people that like that behavior should move on from gnome-terminal :)
[17:10] <jrwren> rxvt is so 1996
[17:10] <jrwren> but i'll take recommendations
[17:10] <jrwren> its not like i'm in desktop linux often. but its infuriating to use gnome teriminal
[17:12] <rick_h> rxvt-unicode is my choice http://www.techdrivein.com/2011/06/9-good-terminal-emulators-for-linux.html
[17:12] <rick_h> I think it includes 256colors ootb now in 12.04
[18:08] <jrwren> wtf, i just 7z a something on what machine and now I can't 7z x it on another???
[18:11] <jrwren> oh sure, try again and it works.
[18:11] <jrwren> hrmf.
[18:11] <derekv> My shoulder actually hurts from too much mouse dependance and bad posture.  =[
[18:12] <rick_h> derekv: ouch, ergo time
[18:14] <derekv> I ame very very overdo for a long vacation, involving outdoors, sunshine, excersize, no computers
[18:14] <derekv> A reset
[18:14] <derekv> No computer because if I have one with me I'll just use it the whole time.
[18:16] <rick_h> yea, I do that a couple times a year
[18:17] <derekv> Is this your blog
[18:18] <derekv> lococast?
[18:18] <rick_h> derekv: it's the podcast snap-l and I do (every once in a long while)
[18:18] <rick_h> blog.mitechie.com is my blog I blog to once in a long while
[18:18] <rick_h> but the vim screencasts I did. I'm a vim fanboi and attemt to convert people.
[18:19] <rick_h> I claim brousch as a success story, I think
[18:20] <derekv> I'm not sure if I'm an emacs "fanboy", I use it, its just randomly what I decided to use way back ... i use vim/vi for banging on config files in terminal and know just the basic commands
[18:20] <jrwren> <3 vim
[18:20] <rick_h> I moved to vim for all my editing needs a couple of years back
[18:20] <rick_h> been a big win
[18:20] <rick_h> https://github.com/mitechie/pyvim
[18:20] <jrwren> i get red squiggles in my vim when there are errors :)
[18:22] <derekv> If someone asks me if they should learn one or the other, I shrug and say "I like emacs, seems like more people I meet like vim."
[18:22] <derekv> I think if your picking between those two your on the right track
[18:22] <rick_h> yea, I say that vi at least is on every system so you'll need to know it at some point
[18:22] <rick_h> but yea, I respect emacs users since at least they're not using some plugin to eclipse in their day job
[18:22] <rick_h> I even tried to do emacs once but failed horribly
[18:23] <derekv> Yep I usually explain that advantage,
[18:23] <rick_h> got the books/etc
[18:23] <derekv> My brother decided to start learning to program and on my advice he picked python (even thouh I don't use it much)
[18:23] <derekv> and _really_ likes it
[18:23] <rick_h> good call
[18:24] <derekv> He asked me about books so I went to #python, looked at the /topic, and gave hime the zed shaw book
[18:25] <jrwren> ha!
[18:25] <jrwren> i haven't found very many great python books.
[18:25] <jrwren> i have found a few terrible ones :(
[18:25] <derekv> which seemed to work pretty well until it got too tough for him then he started flipping between different books
[18:26] <rick_h> yea, I went through a ton of books
[18:26] <rick_h> but to be honest, when I learned/moved over to python it was mainly on hacking/moving forward
[18:26] <rick_h> weren't really books that I could point to and "that one taught me the python I know today"
[18:27] <derekv> At first he was like "which should learn 2x or 3x?" so I looked at that issue and was like, oh great ... he was reading all these forum posts etc
[18:27] <rick_h> heh, that's pretty common. Fortunately you can learn either these days and move along ok
[18:28] <rick_h> but 2 is easier since more stuff will work there
[18:29] <derekv> He didn't have the cultural understanding to interpret all that stuff
[18:29] <rick_h> yea, it's the issue with being new
[18:29] <derekv> Plus it seems like when your starting, you have this feeling that your going to be locked into one platform and you have to pick the right one now
[18:30] <rick_h> http://docs.python-guide.org/en/latest/index.html
[18:30] <derekv> And a lot of bad comments out there that seem to support this.
[18:31] <derekv> Had to keep telling him, you can switch later it won't hurt even if you pick the wrong one your not getting married.
[18:33] <derekv> Anyways I guess whether it was my influence or what, but he later came back and was like, "I've been learning shell and I think that everyone should learn the shell before they learn to program"  =]
[18:33] <derekv> I've met CS grads who I had to explain to them what a shell was.
[18:37] <derekv> He also decided to learn vim.
[18:37] <derekv> The only thing I insisted on was that he learn git =]
[18:41] <derekv> rick_h, didn't you say something about using make files to rollout your dev enviroment?
[18:41] <derekv> was that something you planned for lococast?
[18:44] <rick_h> derekv: I might talk about it at MUG
[18:45] <rick_h> I'll talk about it some on lococast as well probably
[18:45] <derekv> I really like the concept.
[18:46] <rick_h> yea, took me a bit to 'get' it and even still it's a big thing but I'm loving the use
[18:46] <derekv> Do you get that to work on windows or are you so lucky to not have to ever think about that?
[18:47] <rick_h> not really any more
[18:48] <rick_h> bah, phantomjs is hating on me...so close
[19:23] <derekv> "Unable to install. Meteor supports RedHat and Debian." boooooo
[19:23] <derekv> also, I'm officially fed up  with xchat
[19:25] <derekv> ahhhh here we go, erc =]
[19:26] <derekv> aghk color scheme fail! =[
[19:26] <derekv> Red on blue.
[19:27] <Blazeix> sounds beautiful
[19:27] <derekv> Any syntax highlighting system / color theme engine needs to do sanity checks
[19:27] <derekv> I'm pretty sure there are formulas available.
[19:28] <rick_h> dammit, can't get this to work. xvfb, phantomjs, jenkins...ugh...suck a not fun combo
[19:30] <derekv> I'm having a hell of a time with xvfb, webdriver, tomcat, elastic bamboo
[19:30] <derekv> different tests fail every build.
[19:31] <Blazeix> does phantomjs require xvfb?
[19:31] <Blazeix> i thought it was standalone
[19:31] <rick_h> it needs it to run headless I think
[19:31] <Blazeix> oh, apparently the newest version is standalone, but older versions aren't
[19:32] <rick_h> trying to run it under jenkins user
[19:32] <Blazeix> "Starting from PhantomJS version 1.5, the Linux version is pure headless and does not need X11/Xlib anymore and thus there is no need to use Xvfb."
[19:32] <rick_h> orly...ok yea, using one version back, guess an upgrade is work it
[19:32] <rick_h> yea, 1.4 here
[19:32] <rick_h> cool, just wasn't sure on the ppas and didn't want to manually build
[19:36] <rick_h> hah, started compile and now I see: "With 4 parallel compile jobs on a modern machine, the entire process takes roughly 30 minutes."
[21:44] <snap-l> Sorry, have been AWOL most of the day
[21:44] <snap-l> dentist teeth cleaning, Squeeebox presentation, and have some friends over.
[21:44] <rick_h> party time
[21:44] <snap-l> Yo yo yo
[23:26] <snap-l> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt-QDXUeQnY
[23:27] <snap-l> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUQtRVqRKuY&feature=related
[23:34] <rick_h> Blazeix: thakns for the heads up on the phantomjs 1.5 updates. Works ok now
[23:36] <Blazeix> awesome
[23:37] <rick_h> yea, no nice xunit output, but at least can run the JS tests now in jenkins and get pass/fail
[23:58] <snap-l> brousch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miZLob1Hi4I <- Local guys
[23:58] <snap-l> Love the first comment:
[23:58] <snap-l> "I'm in a band."
[23:58] <snap-l> "What do you play?"
[23:58] <snap-l> "The beard."


[19:50] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: David Tomaschik: Announcing TIMEP: Test Interface for Multiple Embedded Protocols @ https://systemoverlord.com/2020/05/08/announcing-timep-test-interface-for-multiple-embedded-protocols.html


[04:51] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[06:34] <lotuspsychje> oh dear
[06:34] <arraybolt3> lotuspsychje: You noticed :P
[06:34] <lotuspsychje> got the nicest support again arraybolt3 :p
[06:35] <arraybolt3> Or... whatever :D
[06:35] <arraybolt3> (Where did they get the idea that the GPL required the distribution of third-party build dependencies anyway?)
[06:36] <arraybolt3> Looks like our native Xubuntu guru has it taken care of.
[06:36] <lotuspsychje> case closed hehe
[06:36] <arraybolt3> s/native/local/ (I can argue with trolls but can't get my English right, turns out)
[22:11] <Bashing-om> UWN: Issue764 now available to our reading public: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue764 :D
[22:12] <Jeremy31> Is there a text to speech version?
[22:13] <Bashing-om> Oh Jeremy31 - is there not a app ^ for that ?? :P
[22:13] <daftykins> xD
[22:13] <Jeremy31> I haven't looked, I am too tired to search and don't feel like reading much
[22:14] <Bashing-om> Jeremy31: Hey - these things happen even to the best of us :D
[22:14] <daftykins> get a nice early night and treat yourself in the morning!
[22:16] <Jeremy31> A long nights sleep doesn't happen for me.  I would be wide awake after about 7 hours
[23:59] <leftyfb> sarnold: https://systemd-devel.freedesktop.narkive.com/QVOYjePz/ssh-socket-activation-was-systemd-unit-files-for-debian-based-systems   too funny/sad that the idea has been kicking around for 10 years