[00:30] <krytarik> Eickmeyer: Pretty sure the issue with the conflicting aenigma font packages on the seed currently is that the internal mirror of the seed hasn't been updated yet, which also means blacklisting the conflicting package won't help either.  And not sure <https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/seeds/ubuntustudio.jammy/> sees the same as said mirror, but it's what I look at in cases ...
[00:30] <krytarik> ... like this.
[03:18] <Eickmeyer[m]> krytarik: Thanks, sounds like a problem if the mirrors aren't syncing. I made that change over 24 hours ago, I'll bug #u-r about it in the morning.
[16:00] <Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Looking at the error logs on your issue #70, there's no way backports could have done that as it contains no system libraries.  :P
[18:42] <Eickmeyer[m]> Let's face it, krytarik , ubottu is always drunk.


[14:21] <rick_h_> morning
[14:24] <_stink_> yo
[17:19] <cmaloney> Good morn... er, afternoon. :)
[18:14] <rick_h_> yep hit afternoon
[21:19] <cmaloney> Afternoon
[21:41] <rick_h_> evening
[22:23] <cmaloney> https://plus.google.com/+mattjackson/posts/fcnrgrjwkng
[22:23] <cmaloney> rick_h_: ^^
[22:40] <rick_h_> cmaloney: can you reshare it tome?
[22:40] <rick_h_> i can't follow irc links on here
[22:45] <cmaloney> Sure thing
[22:46] <cmaloney> Reshared
[22:46] <cmaloney> Man apparently it chose your old account
[22:46] <rick_h_> ouch man...ouch
[22:46] <cmaloney> Sorry, I saw and had to share
[22:47] <cmaloney> I watched the Thanksgiving game against the Lions and was surprised the Lions won
[22:47] <rick_h_> ugh
[22:48] <cmaloney> Honestly I would have thought a game between the Lions and the Bears would have resulted in a team in one stadium over winning and both teams losing.
[23:41] <jrwren> https://launchpad.net/~evarlast/+archive/ubuntu/golang1.4  community activity :)
[23:42] <rick_h_> woot


[01:48] <damjan> I'm playing with upstart, but I can't login on tty1.. any idea how to make a job that just starts a shell on tty1 ?
[01:49] <sadmac> damjan: start on runlevel 5 / exec /bin/bash
[01:49] <sadmac> runlevel 3 rather
[01:50] <damjan> how about "start on startup"?
[01:53] <damjan> I'm getting "main processes ended"
[02:16] <MarcWeber> damjan:  Also add "session leader"
[02:18] <MarcWeber> ar 10 02:13:52 nixos init: sshd pre-start process (25558)
[02:18] <damjan> MarcWeber: still no luck "init: rescue main process ended, respawning"
[02:18] <MarcWeber> seeing this line and ps -p no longer showing any process pid 25558
[02:18] <damjan> rescues is the name of the job (file) I created
[02:19] <MarcWeber> Then this means that the kernel doesn't tell upstart the the pr-start process has finished?
[02:20] <MarcWeber> damjan: Are you sure that upstart has noticed that your file has changed?
[02:20] <damjan> MarcWeber: I'm installing upstart on a non-Upstart system
[02:20] <damjan> in a virtual machine, so I reboot it all the time
[02:21] <MarcWeber> damjan: Which virtual machine?  vserver?
[02:21] <damjan> KVM
[02:21] <MarcWeber> Or qemu..
[02:22] <damjan> I can't even login to the VM with upstart
[02:22] <MarcWeber> http://rafb.net/p/3MfPOS65.html from line 3 on. This works hree
[02:22] <damjan> the stupid thing is, obviously /bin/bash fails to start for some reason but where is the error output ?!?
[02:24] <MarcWeber> Try exec &> /tmp/foo
[02:25] <damjan> well / is not rw at that point :)
[02:25] <damjan> .. I suspect
[02:25] <damjan> .. although I have a script that should do the basic system setup, I don't see it's output so I don't know if it worked ok
[02:26] <MarcWeber> You have do create /dev/console
[02:27] <damjan> yeah, I know that .. hmm .. I think it should exist .. but let me confirm
[02:28] <damjan> .. (just what was the trick to get the real /dev/ beneath udevs tmpfs ?!?)...
[02:28] <MarcWeber> mkdir and mknod use google or kernel Documentation
[02:29] <damjan> ok the trick is "mount --bind / /mnt" now I can see the real /dev/ in /mnt/dev/
[02:29] <damjan> it does have /dev/console null and zero
[02:33] <MarcWeber> I know that upstart has nice goals. However I think it should try to be at least as good as the old init* programs.
[02:36] <damjan> I feel like it's hard to beat the old init* programs, they've been baked to perfection with the years
[02:38] <MarcWeber> It's not that hard. However not beeing able to set oom shouldn't make starting the job fail altogther.
[02:39] <MarcWeber> Maybe there should be a simple /bin/sh test and if upstart doesn't get to know within 1/20s that it has failed assume that it has to use ps -p to check wether a process has died.  But it would work in 99% of all cases which is much better than 0%
[02:43] <MarcWeber> Let's hope that my snapshot I'v taken month ago works fine. It alread did..
[03:23] <MarcWeber> No, didn't help. Maybe I'm just talking nonsense. I'm a little bit disappointed that I still haven't suceeded..
[10:32] <MarcWeber> Keybuk, sadmac Do you think there is any chance  using an alternative less pretty implementation of getting notified when processes (such a spre-start) exit?
[10:33] <Keybuk> how do you mean?
[10:34] <MarcWeber> As I've said. Currently I've the problem on the v-server that the sshd-pre start script gets started..
[10:35] <MarcWeber> init prints the pid to the log. But then nothing happens. I can no longer show that process using ps -p pid
[10:35] <MarcWeber> So it has died (it contained a mkdir -p command only. .)
[10:36] <MarcWeber> init doesn't get notified that the pre-start script has exited so it dosen't start sshd
[10:36] <Keybuk> why doesn't init get notified that the pre-start script has exited?
[10:36] <Keybuk> that sounds like your vserver has broken if it's not sending SIGCHLDs to init
[10:39] <MarcWeber> I can try contacting the support service again and ask wether they can enable it. Don't know yet was is happening. All I now that pre-start doesn't cause the daemon to be started.
[10:39] <MarcWeber> Can I test the SIGCHLDs without being PID 1 somehow?
[10:39] <Keybuk> sure, sigchld is pretty fundamental ;)
[10:39] <Keybuk> did you try init with --debug and capturing the output?
[10:39] <MarcWeber> only -v
[10:39] <MarcWeber> I'll retry
[10:40] <MarcWeber> I've commented out the whole oom_adj part Because I don't have permissions to change them (for whatever reasons).
[10:48] <MarcWeber> line 165 http://rafb.net/p/gdEQ1132.html
[10:48] <MarcWeber> sshd should be started on event manual
[10:50] <MarcWeber> The job and debugging output http://rafb.net/p/sXDAnh65.html
[10:52] <MarcWeber> Would it make sense to add an upstart-test application which could be run on startup once to verify that all required features are availible?
[10:55] <MarcWeber> I could also move the code from the pro-start scripts into the main script..
[11:02] <MarcWeber> Is --debug output sent to the logging daemon as well?
[11:04] <MarcWeber> Keybuk: So does this anything to you?
[11:42] <MarcWeber> Keybuk: Would you mind pingingn me if you're availible for some minutes again?
[13:55] <MarcWeber> Keybuk: You've been right. the strace shows that no SIGCHD is sent. http://rafb.net/p/2VpHyE47.html. I've sent another ticket. Thank you!
[13:57] <Keybuk> MarcWeber: sorry, been having X server crashes all morning
[13:57] <Keybuk> lost your log
[13:57] <MarcWeber> Ah never mind. :-)
[13:57] <Keybuk> I'll never understand why people use vserver
[13:57] <Keybuk> from what I can tell, it doesn't implement a POSIX system very well
[13:57] <MarcWeber> Because they are cheep and except of those troubles they work well..
[13:57] <Keybuk> so it's pot luck whether anything works
[13:58] <Keybuk> surely Xen has killed it by now?
[13:58] <MarcWeber> Keybuk: I can't affort a dedicated server yet :-(
[13:58] <Keybuk> I don't mean virtualisation in general
[13:58] <Keybuk> just the particular implementation that is vserver
[13:58] <MarcWeber> So which kind of hosting service do you recommend ?
[13:58] <Keybuk> http://www.linode.com/ do lovely cheap Xen instances ;)
[13:58] <Keybuk> $19,95/mo for basic
[13:59] <Keybuk> though I don't know how that compares with your vserver host
[13:59] <MarcWeber> Xen is supposed to work?
[13:59] <Keybuk> Xen works brilliantly
[14:00] <MarcWeber> I guess I've found another hosting company which is using xen. So I'll just give up and switch again :)
[14:00] <Keybuk> heh
[14:00] <Keybuk> I don't mean to be mean ;)
[14:00] <Keybuk> but I have been on the receiving end of what feels like dozens of vserver bugs now
[14:00] <Keybuk> (both for upstart and udev)
[14:00] <Keybuk> where it just flat-out does things that the book says it can't
[14:01] <MarcWeber> I can't ping linode < 120ms
[14:01] <MarcWeber> So maybe I should use a hosting service which is closer to Germany.
[14:01] <MarcWeber> Keybuk: I think upstart is great. I think it will take off.
[14:02] <Keybuk> there is one, I can't think what it is
[14:18] <sadmac> Keybuk: liked the talk
[14:18] <MarcWeber> Keybuk: I've just added some debugging hints which have helped me: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/Debugging#preview
[14:22] <damjan> echo "Debug Message" >> /tmp/upstart will not succeed until / is remounted RW
[14:27] <MarcWeber> damjan: I've added that note :)
[14:30] <MarcWeber> Keybuk: May I also quote you telling that Xen systems are known to work much better?
[14:38] <keesj> also the naming sounds a little weird echo "Debug Message" >> /tmp/upstart looks like it some sort of magic to make upsart be in debug mode
[14:39] <keesj>  echo "Debug Message" >> /tmp/my_job_debug sounds better to me
[14:39] <keesj> with 0.5.1 you can do initctl log-priority debug so see what is happening inside upstart
[14:40] <keesj> I would also say on what version this wiki page applies to
[14:51] <MarcWeber> I hope that everyone setting up upstart has enough knowledge to know what echo "" >> foo means :-)
[14:53] <MarcWeber> keesj: I've added the log-priority hint as well
[15:52] <ion_> Meh, no waitfd in jaunty’s kernel.
[15:53] <Keybuk> no
[16:33] <sadmac2> ion_: no waitfd in anybody's kernel I hope.
[16:33] <sadmac2> the patch isn't upstream
[16:44] <Keybuk> talking of which
[16:44]  * Keybuk fires the patch gun at lkml
[16:45] <sadmac2> Keybuk: you have a patch for it?
[16:45] <Keybuk> no
[16:45] <Keybuk> you have :p
[16:45] <Keybuk> these are different patches
[16:46] <sadmac2> Keybuk: oic
[16:46] <sadmac2> Keybuk: thought you got bored and just rewrote it for me :)
[16:50] <sadmac2> Keybuk: how will upstart process these "when dbus started" lines? is dbus an argument before the name? some other construct?
[20:40] <ion_> Any news about waitfd? Is it getting into Linus’ tree any time soon?
[20:43] <sadmac2> ion_: I think it needs another round of fixes, and impressions are mixed. It also needs to be better explained.
[20:46] <sadmac2> The next patch had better be good.


[05:15] <Mirv> jamesh: in case you didn't notice the bug comment, please test the fix from silo and report back at bug #1469611
[05:23] <jamesh> Mirv: I don't have any code ready to test it on device: the crash meant I couldn't proceed with the branch.  My other system is still on vivid though, so I can give it a shot on the desktop there.
[05:24] <jamesh> Mirv: is the change also in wily?
[05:24] <Mirv> jamesh: ah, alright, I assumed you might have something to quickly give it to. there's wily PPA also at silo 044 so you can use either
[05:25] <Mirv> so vivid+overlay = silo 043, wily = silo 044
[05:26] <jamesh> I'll test the wily one then, since that's where the build tree for that branch is.
[05:28] <Mirv> ok. you should (currently) get version 5.4.2-1ubuntu2~wily1~test1 from the silo
[05:41] <jamesh> Mirv: okay.  The tests in my thumbnailer branch no longer crash with the silo applied.
[05:41] <Mirv> jamesh: \o/ nice, thanks to tsdgeos
[05:41] <Mirv> jamesh: do you mind pushing to lp:~jamesh/+junk/thumbnailertest or somewhere if I'd try to validate the vivid silo?
[05:42] <jamesh> Mirv: the branch is here: https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesh/thumbnailer/no-fallback-albumart
[05:43] <jamesh> Mirv: note that the tests don't actually pass: I didn't get as far as fixing them up to work with the rest of the changes because they consistently crashed without the Qt fix
[05:44] <Mirv> jamesh: ok, thanks!
[05:44] <jamesh> Mirv: with the branch built, "ctest -R qml --verbose" should complete without a segfault.
[05:45] <Mirv> thanks again
[06:45] <dholbach> good morning
[08:23] <sturmflut2> popey: I'm on arale rc-proposed r50 and still get from vibrate to lockscreen in ~22 seconds. It takes ~50 seconds on your device?
[08:24] <popey> sturmflut2: ogra is the one complaining :)
[08:25] <davmor2> popey: when isn't he
[08:25] <popey> 25 seconds that time
[08:25] <popey> so yeah, not conclusive
[08:30] <sturmflut2> popey: It has consistently been ~22 seconds on my arale, with stable r2, rc-proposed r47 and rc-proposed r50.
[08:36] <ogra_> sturmflut2, well, fpor me it got ~10sec slower today ... (and about 30sec slower on krillin)
[08:36] <sturmflut2> Hmmm
[08:48] <Kniple> Hello people, I do not seem to be able to enter authentication settings for wifi networks on my MX4. Anyone know how or where to do this?
[09:08] <VitaliyKononenko> Hello. Does anybody knows how to port Ubuntu Touch on Lenovo A706? I've asked allready on XDA-Forum and Ubuntu ASK, but nobody helped me with this
[10:16] <zubozrout> Hello, on devel-proposed full shell rotation is available last few weeks. I just want to ask why scopes can't be rotated as well - especially for going to homescreen my screen rotates each time to portrait even though all my running apps are in landscape.
[10:17] <ogra_> zubozrout, thats a design decision (and you should not run devel-proposed)
[10:20] <zubozrout> ogra_ Ok, thanks for the info. Neverhteless I don't think this should stay the way it is. As to devel-proposed, yes, I know it is not tested enough, but I am enjoying daily updates :), so it is ideal for me.
[10:21] <ogra_> zubozrout, its is not only not tested but planned for heavy breakage too ... use rc-proposed thats the daily channel for users
[10:22] <ogra_> zubozrout, there is a bug open for the non rotating shell but i cant find it :/
[10:22] <ogra_> (i dont think it had any feedback from the design team yet though)
[10:23] <zubozrout> ogra_ That is not possible, as I have Nexus 7 LTE (deb) and this device is not officially supported :'(, so I have to use this server: http://system-image.tasemnice.eu/ubuntu-touch/
[10:23] <ogra_> oh, tlak to Tassadar|nym then
[10:23] <ogra_> *talk
[10:23] <ogra_> so he makes a properly usable channel available
[10:23] <Tassadar|nym> #vacation
[10:24] <ogra_> devel will switch to snappy during this cycle ... that will likely make it break for a while
[10:24] <ogra_> (read: in an unbootable way etc)
[10:26] <zubozrout> ogra_ I think I bothered him too much already as some time ago devel-proposed introduced an update to system-image-cli and he had to update his side as well. Hm, and when is a switch to snappy planned?
[10:29] <ogra_> zubozrout, during 15.10 or in early 16.04 ... 15.10 is not supposed to end up on any devices for that reason
[10:30] <zubozrout> ogra_ Hmm, that is fine to know, thank you very much for the info :).
[10:30] <ogra_> bug 1465331
[10:31] <ogra_> there it is :)
[10:33] <zubozrout> orga_ I was just looking for it, thanks :).
[11:15] <opiwahn> do you have a buy recommendation BQ E5 / MX4 at the moment?  Thinking about buying me an ubuntu phone
[11:15] <popey> buy both :)
[11:15] <leko> Hey guys, I'm a proud owner of a Meizu MX4. Question regarding battery life, from a fully charged battery to completely empty takes about 12-16 hours without ever using the phone. Is this a common occurence?
[11:16] <Kniple> leko: there is quite a lot of problems with the battery right now, afaik.
[11:16] <leko> Do you own a device with touch? Do you experience the same issues?
[11:16] <popey> yeah, some battery fixes on the way
[11:16] <popey> yes, i have an mx4
[11:16] <leko> Same problems as above?
[11:16] <popey> battery life isn't what it should be, some analysis has been done and it's being actively worked on
[11:17] <Kniple> The indication of the battery is also awry, as is the charging (which took me well over 24 hours to 100% the first time I charged mine)
[11:18] <ogra_> my battery with the test image for the next OTA currently lasts about 24-30h
[11:18] <Kniple> sounds promising :)
[11:18] <ogra_> so after the next OTA you should see quite an improvement
[11:19] <ogra_> (it used to last between 6-8h for me in the beginning)
[11:19] <Kniple> I have around 10 hours of battery time on mine, then again I don't have a sim card in it and only run it on wifi atm
[11:19] <popey> http://people.canonical.com/~alan/screenshots/device-2015-07-08-121947.png
[11:20] <popey> battery graph looks pretty funky here :)
[11:20] <popey> guess who was playing games at 1AM
[11:20] <Kniple> haha
[11:21] <davmor2> popey: your wife, no your kids, obviously your kids
[11:21] <leko> Good to hear. Not fond of the idea of buying a new battery the second day of ownership.
[11:22] <ogra_> (oh, and note that the 24-30h here are with acrtually using the device ... i havent tried how long it lasts on complete idle ... i would suspect way way longer)
[11:33] <xpheres> hello
[11:34] <xpheres> I would be very happy if anyone test my app and report that is working
[11:34] <xpheres> I have a first bad review because the old versions did not work
[11:34] <xpheres> https://uappexplorer.com/app/analyticaltranslatordemo.xpheresdev
[11:41] <sturmflut2> Uh oh. I just ran into a case where my app would suddenly no longer start on arale rc-proposed r50, see http://paste.ubuntu.com/11840939/ . I restarted the phone and now a reboot takes a minute instead of 22 seconds :/
[11:43] <sturmflut2> No idea where the AppArmor message comes from, I don't manually try to inhibit screen blanking and this used to work like this
[11:52] <ogra_> sturmflut2, i just had a UI hardlock :(
[11:52] <sturmflut2> ogra_: :(
[11:52] <ogra_> sturmflut2, check /var/crash btw
[11:53] <sturmflut2> I will, just have to look for the panda first
[12:03] <svij> panda!
[12:04] <popey> love!
[12:04]  * ogra_ throws some bamboo in the channel
[12:13] <nemo> Anyone here interested in trying to tweak the ubuntu hedgewars package to see if it can be made more touch-friendly?  kenvandine didn't have enough space on his "build tablet" for this yesterday
[12:13] <nemo> basically just want to see if enabling one flag and deletion a line in a config file helps
[12:13] <nemo> *deleting
[12:15] <xpheres> I made a dist-upgrade in my bodhi linux because I can not add repository ppa :phablet-team/tools
[12:15] <xpheres> do you think that after this I will be able to run the emulator?
[12:15] <popey> no
[12:15] <mcphail> nemo: I can have a quick look
[12:15] <popey> the emulator is broken
[12:15] <xpheres> ah ok
[12:15] <popey> nothing you do to your install of ubuntu will fix that
[12:15] <popey> IMO
[12:15] <xpheres> I understand
[12:17] <nemo> mcphail: 'k, well, pretty much would be pulling the ubuntu source package, then adding MOBILE flag to the build and deleting line 43 of hedgewars/options.inc
[12:18] <sturmflut2> It made "click", and somehow the panda can now be wherever you are. Do you feel the love?
[12:18] <nemo> mcphail: pretty much just trying to get the normal frontend to launch the touch-friendly game
[12:18] <mcphail> nemo: currently git cloning the repo. Can I use that?
[12:18] <nemo> otherwise I'm guessing the game is basically unusable
[12:18] <nemo> mcphail: huh... I guess.  I just figured your .deb thingy would be better for repackaging
[12:19] <nemo> mcphail: you mean our periodically updated mirror of the game on github?
[12:19] <mcphail> nemo: says "daily mirror" on your site :)
[12:19] <nemo> heh. daily
[12:19] <nemo> but sure
[12:19] <nemo> besides we haven't been that active
[12:19] <nemo> mcphail: FWIW, here's the current ubuntu-friendly build instructions
[12:19] <nemo> https://code.google.com/p/hedgewars/wiki/BuildingOnLinux
[12:20] <sturmflut2> Doesn't hedgewars use Qt components? or something like that
[12:20] <nemo> sturmflut2: it does yes
[12:20] <nemo> don't you guys have Qt?
[12:20] <ogra_> we do
[12:20] <nemo> aight. np then
[12:20] <nemo> sturmflut2: just for the frontend tho. we have like 4 frontends ☺
[12:20] <nemo> only one for desktop ofc
[12:20] <mcphail> nemo: I see sdl1.2 on the list of deps. That's going to be a problem
[12:20] <nemo> mcphail: not necessary
[12:20] <nemo> mcphail: can build against SDL2. we use that on mobile
[12:21] <nemo> mcphail: those are the desktop build instructions
[12:21] <mcphail> ok
[12:21] <nemo> there are a ton of SDL2 ifdefs in there. will want to pass that flag too
[12:21] <nemo> mobile builds currently use SDL2 and GLES11
[12:22] <mcphail> nemo: you building this as a .click?
[12:23] <nemo> mcphail: totally unfamiliar w/ any ubuntu touch terminology
[12:23] <nemo> kinda ended up here in passing based on separate discussion on #ubuntu-devel about how horribly suited backports is to games ☺
[12:24] <nemo> mcphail: thought it'd be nice to see if we could get something somewhat mobile friendly going again. we'd put a fair amount of time into iOS and Android, but withered due to lack of maintainers
[12:24] <nemo> well... and the iOS dude got demoralise by Apple and iOS users.
[12:24] <mcphail> nemo: going to be hard to get it up and running on the phone unless we can build it as a click, for the launcher and apparmor hooks
[12:25] <nemo> mcphail: what's a click?  but I thought phone could install standard ubuntu packages?
[12:25] <mcphail> nemo: no - debs aren't supported on the phone
[12:25] <nemo> from description sounds like some sort of magic wrapper. chroot/env isolation?
[12:25] <nemo> ogra_: huh. you didn't mention that ☹
[12:26] <mcphail> nemo: not quite a chroot, but strict app confinement with limited access to directories etc
[12:26] <nemo> well that decreases my interest in ubuntu touch a whole hell of a lot :-/
[12:26] <nemo> get more functionality w/ the ubuntu chroot on my nexus 5
[12:26] <mcphail> nemo: just a minor hurdle :)
[12:26] <ogra_> nemo, just needs re-packaging as click package, thats trivial
[12:26] <ogra_> nemo, and you can use debs ... they are just not supported :)
[12:26] <nemo> mcphail: yeah, but the attractive thing was access to all the .debs
[12:27] <mcphail> nemo: the idea with a click package is to bundle all the libs (which you can extract from the .debs) in the package
[12:27] <nemo> mcphail: when I was raving about ubuntu touch to everyone it was really about you guys coming online w/ entire ecosystem at your fingertips, even if there are integration probs
[12:27] <ogra_> for development you can make the device writable and install as many debs as you want ... just dont expect the phone to not break due to that
[12:27] <nemo> mcphail: huh... dll hell?
[12:27] <mcphail> nemo: no - it removes dll hell completely
[12:28] <nemo> mcphail: so... each app has its own copy of, oh, openssl that must be updated if there's a vulnerability?
[12:28] <mcphail> nemo: yes, but each copy of ssl is operating in strict confinemtnt to prevent damage
[12:28] <nemo> meh
[12:28] <nemo> mcphail: I was thinking specifically of the reaction to dll hell
[12:28] <mcphail> nemo: don't knock it until you've tried it :)
[12:28] <nemo> mcphail: that is, under windows, people distributing it all with the app
[12:29] <nemo> resulting in bloat and stray versions of libs everywhere
[12:29] <nemo> mcphail: tried it. hated it.
[12:29] <nemo> but hey, do what you guys want ☺
[12:29] <nemo> and space is cheap right?
[12:29] <mcphail> nemo: bloat - yes. Stray versions - no
[12:29] <nemo> the update thing, eh, well, not my problem
[12:29] <nemo> mcphail: if every app has its own ssl lib, that's stray versions in my book
[12:30] <nemo> or own copy of lua52 or whatever
[12:30] <mcphail> nemo: the trust model in modern Ubuntu is very different
[12:30] <nemo> oh, I get why you are doing it
[12:30] <nemo> I just dislike it.
[12:30] <nemo> meh. neither here nor there ☺
[12:31] <nemo> mcphail: just wanted to see if touch could be easily enabled. I'm just hoping that it can... the main problem could be people having made iOS or Android assumptions in the IFDEFs
[12:31] <mcphail> nemo: there are huge benefits in terms of package management and curation
[12:31] <nemo> so... if a critical vulnerability in ssl is discovered
[12:31] <ogra_> nemo, many actual upstreams we work closely with (like libreoffice, mozilla, chromium) all ship their own libs already
[12:31] <nemo> every single app must be updated
[12:32] <nemo> instead of just one lib
[12:32] <nemo> ogra_: yeah. that's a necessity for windows. when we package hedgewars for windows we do that
[12:32] <ogra_> nothing of the above uses system lib packages
[12:32] <nemo> that's 'cause their package management sucks natively
[12:33] <ogra_> and while click is pretty close to what you see on windows, th next iteration (snappy) will handle all this a bit better
[12:33] <ogra_> it wont take the responsibility away from the package creator to keep critical libs up to date though
[12:33] <nemo> ogra_: there seems to be a huge difference between a few major gigantic apps that provide almost their own env bundling libs and every single piddling little app on the system doing it
[12:33] <ogra_> but if even you mess up it wont do any harm to the system
[12:33] <ogra_> (only to your app)
[12:34] <nemo> but... yeah, not my prob, apart from being one more reason I'm suddenly less enamoured of this
[12:34] <ogra_> (i.e. by keeping an insecure ssl version)
[12:34] <nemo> easy to say until someone breaks out or uses the vulnerability to trick user into a higher level information leak
[12:34] <nemo> aaaaanyway ☺
[12:35] <mcphail> nemo: doe your app specifically capture SDL Touch Events or does it rely on Mouse events being translated as touch?
[12:36] <ogra_> nemo, there is no way to break out of that ... it uses seccomp and apparmor, an app only has access to certain syscalls and only to the dirs it ships underneath its apps dir
[12:37] <nemo> mcphail: touch events
[12:37] <nemo> mcphail: assuming touch is enabled
[12:37] <nemo> mcphail: for desktop uses mouse events
[12:38] <nemo> mcphail: what I wanted to see is if simply enabling the MOBILE flag and disabling HWLIBRARY under that flag would be sufficient
[12:38] <mcphail> nemo: good. Just updating my build chroot
[12:38] <nemo> mcphail: current frontend launches engine as a separate process. we have a new frontend in the works that runs as a library too, but otherwise the only library frontends are for iOS and Android
[12:39] <nemo> mcphail: could set defaults to ensure the game launched as a full-screen window for better experience there.  or outright fullscreen, but that might be bad on a phone
[12:40] <nemo> by "in the works" I'd say "not soon" unc0rr's been working on it on and off, but he has about as much free time as me lately
[12:40] <mcphail> nemo: outright fullscreen is good for Ubuntu. Rotation is the issue
[12:40] <nemo> I keep meaning to poke at it, but haven't. maybe after next release
[12:40] <nemo> hm
[12:40] <nemo> mcphail: ok. we definitely don't want rotation
[12:40] <nemo> game only really plays well in landscape mode
[12:41] <mcphail> nemo: this is currently a stumbling block
[12:41] <mcphail> nemo: been hacking away at this
[12:41] <ogra_> mcphail, you can force landscape now
[12:41] <ogra_> in the .desktop file
[12:41] <nemo> mcphail: on iOS and Android we used overlays.  that wouldn't be available unfortunately. that could be a problem. that's why I was thinking a window would help so that at least you could easily quit
[12:41] <mcphail> ogra_: doesn't work properly for SDL apps
[12:41] <ogra_> oh
[12:41] <mcphail> nemo: you can quit by swiping in Ubuntu
[12:42] <nemo> 'k
[12:42] <nemo> hope that doesn't mess up game touch interaction
[12:42] <mcphail> nemo: shouldn't do
[12:42] <jrbt> Yo
[12:43] <mcphail> nemo: in terms of install dirs, are we only looking at the binary install dir and the data install dir?
[12:43] <nemo> mcphail: for the install yeah
[12:43] <mcphail> nemo: and what directories are written/read during play?
[12:44] <nemo> mcphail: data dir, and ~/.hedgewars
[12:44] <nemo> mcphail: ~/.hedgewars/Data is for extra stuff user might install,   ~/.hedgewars/Logs is for game log (might be turned off on mobile should check)
[12:44] <mcphail> nemo: is ~/.hedgewars hard coded?
[12:44] <nemo> yessss :-/
[12:44] <nemo> but. lemme see what MOBILE flag currently sets
[12:44] <mcphail> nemo: can it be adjusted to use a standard XDG path?
[12:44] <nemo> maybe should just set the touch flags directly
[12:45] <nemo> mcphail: that's been a todo item ☺
[12:45] <nemo> just has been kinda low priority
[12:45] <nemo> QTfrontend/main.cpp currently hardcodes that path btw
[12:45] <nemo> oh wait
[12:45] <mcphail> nemo: ha! - we need it for the app confinement. Your app won't be able to read/write ~/.hedgewars by default
[12:45]  * nemo smacks nemo
[12:45] <nemo> stupid nemo
[12:45] <nemo> mcphail: I keep forgetting we allow overriding those on commandline
[12:45] <mcphail> nemo: perfect
[12:46] <nemo> we did that for the windows portable builds initially
[12:46] <nemo> --config-dir and --data-dir
[12:46] <mcphail> nemo: is --data-dir the default (package) data dir or the optional user data dir?
[12:47] <nemo> package data dir
[12:47] <mcphail> ok
[12:47] <nemo> user data dir is considered subdir of config dir
[12:48] <jrbt> Do you know if a ubuntu touch design web framework exist?
[12:48] <jrbt> I love the ubuntu apps design instead of material design
[12:49] <mcphail> nemo: will do some domestic chores for 10 minutes while this chroot update.  What tweaks and build flags do you want
[12:59] <nemo> mcphail: for starters just MOBILE and deleting line 43 in hedgewars/options.inc
[13:00] <nemo> hoping that'll be enough...
[13:00] <mcphail> ok, give me a while. I'll build and roll it into a .click
[13:00] <koda> i can help with that regard if needed :)
[13:00] <nemo> koda!
[13:00] <nemo> mcphail: koda here did our iOS port long long ago
[13:00] <mcphail> excellent!
[13:02] <mcphail> nemo: so we're deleting "{$DEFINE HWLIBRARY}"?
[13:02] <koda> yes
[13:02] <koda> mobile enabled hwlibrary because we never thought of running hwengine as a separate process
[13:02] <koda> setting mobile will set use_touch_interface which will then enable SDL2
[13:09] <mcphail> hmm - build script isn't finding the minor sdl libraries. Do you use pkg-config to search for these?
[13:12] <koda> we use cmake but i am not familiar how findsdl works there
[13:12] <koda> probably everything needs to be updated to findsdl2 and co.
[13:12] <mcphail> it is finding the main sdl2 lib but not sdl_ttf etc
[13:13] <koda> hmm
[13:13] <koda> try editing hedgewars/SDLh.pas
[13:13] <popey> pas?
[13:13] <popey> hedgewars is pascal?
[13:13] <koda> and add "2" where needed in the list of libraries
[13:13] <koda> popey: yep
[13:13] <popey> sweet
[13:13] <popey> not touched pascal for about 20 years
[13:14] <nemo> popey: well. the standard desktop frontend is qt/c++, the engine is pascal and the server is haskell
[13:14] <nemo> just to keep life interesting
[13:14]  * ogra_ would have said 30 :P
[13:14] <nemo> popey: I wanna port engine to Rust ☺
[13:14] <popey> I am old
[13:14] <popey> ogra_ is very old
[13:14] <nemo> popey: until Hedgewars, I had not touched Pascal iiiin...
[13:14] <ogra_> +1
[13:14]  * nemo counts
[13:14]  * ogra_ shakes his cane
[13:14] <popey> hehe
[13:15] <popey> it was all trees round here you know!
[13:15] <nemo> hm... I did start Hedgewars a long time ago
[13:15] <nemo> ok. 20 years
[13:15] <popey> you're the original dev of hedgewars?
[13:15] <popey> blimey
[13:15] <nemo> popey: no. unc0rr is
[13:15] <nemo> I just started screwing w/ it a long time ago
[13:15] <nemo> January 2009 I think
[13:15] <popey> i wish I'd discovered open source 20 years ago
[13:16] <popey> I first used Pascal on an Epson 8086 PC (with turbo button). Got the floppy disk from a mail-order catalog
[13:16] <popey> happy days
[13:16] <mcphail> still hitting http://paste.ubuntu.com/11841357/
[13:16]  * koda started a few months after nemo
[13:16] <koda> and i never touched pascal before
[13:16] <nemo> mcphail: now what would be neat is if we could automatically switch between hwengine for touch, and hwengine for desktop, based on whether phone was using bluetooth/docking or something ☺
[13:17] <nemo> mcphail: http://galaxynote5edge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Galaxy-Note-5-Laptop-Dock.jpg
[13:17] <mcphail> nemo: :)
[13:17] <mcphail> anyone know if there is a pascal cross compiler for the chroots?
[13:19] <mcphail> otherwise I don't think I'm going to get this built
[13:19] <popey> what pascal compiler does upstream use?
[13:19] <nemo> mcphail: well LocutusOfBorg is currently building just fine for ubuntu on arm
[13:19] <popey> can't you use the same one?
[13:19] <nemo> guess I can ask him what he's doing
[13:19] <nemo> mcphail: for the official ubuntu packages...
[13:19] <popey> and if it's in the archive, check the build log?
[13:19] <nemo> hrm. that's basically what popey is saying ☺
[13:20] <popey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hedgewars
[13:20] <popey> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hedgewars/<IP_ADDRESS>-5/+build/7390941 armhf build
[13:20] <popey> -- Check for working Pascal compiler: /usr/bin/fpc
[13:20] <popey> fpc - Free Pascal - SDK suite dependency package
[13:20] <mcphail> popey: problem is I need a cross compiler because I'm building in a click chroot rather than on device
[13:21] <popey> er
[13:21] <sturmflut2> Compiling Pascal programs for a phone. We truly live in the future
[13:21] <popey> how is that any different that the way we build stuff now?
[13:21] <popey> oh, not a schroot?
[13:21] <nemo> https://code.google.com/p/hedgewars/wiki/BuildingForAndroid  used a custom build of fpc
[13:21] <koda> for a phone and ON the phone
[13:21] <nemo> but I'm not sure that is still necessary
[13:21] <nemo> those instructions are several years old
[13:22] <mcphail> popey: if you're building a C program in the click, it doesn't use default gcc or gcc:armhf - it uses a cross compiler so you canb build arm binaries on an amd64 machine. Need the same for pascal
[13:22] <nemo> mcphail: scroll down to Freepascal on that page
[13:23] <nemo> I thought you were building on an arm device. sorry
[13:23] <nemo> like, oh, a chromebook or something ☺
[13:23] <nemo> or kenvandine using a nexus 7...
[13:23] <mcphail> nemo: I'll search the repos for a cross compiler first :)
[13:24] <kenvandine> my old grouper :)
[13:25] <nemo> mcphail: WRT SDL2 libs thingy, did you glance over the search paths in cmake_modules/FindSDL2.cmake ?
[13:26] <nemo> I'm guessing those are a problem?
[13:26] <mcphail> nemo: no -haven't looked at those yet. Assumed it would use pkg-config
[13:27] <nemo> ummm 😕
[13:27] <nemo> SET(SDL2_SEARCH_PATHS ~/Library/Frameworks /Library/Frameworks /usr/local /usr /sw /opt/local /opt/csw /opt)
[13:28] <nemo> this game is regrettably a little... idiosyncratic
[13:29] <mcphail> must be picking up my libsdl2-dev package on the host system. I think I'll cheat and install the dev packages on the host system rather than tweak the paths
[13:39] <oSoMoN> kenvandine, would it make sense to have a default "clipboard" peer for the content hub that would allow copying whatever is being shared to the clipboard
[13:39] <oSoMoN> ?
[13:39] <kenvandine> ah... there is plans for something like that
[13:39] <kenvandine> a pasteboard, i think is what tvoss called it
[13:40] <tvoss> oSoMoN, yup, it would :)
[13:40] <kenvandine> oSoMoN, and it will be integrated with the content-hub
[13:40] <tvoss> oSoMoN, I'm finalizing a writeup for that
[13:40] <kenvandine> tvoss, cool, i've been waiting for that :)
[13:40] <oSoMoN> excellent
[13:40] <tvoss> oSoMoN, kenvandine it's  more like a content hub v2, that's why it takes a little longer
[13:43] <mcphail> nemo: I think I'm hitting a brick wall here.
[13:44] <nemo> koda: ↑
[13:44] <koda> what's up
[13:44] <nemo> mcphail: yeah, for some reason I thought you were just going to take the ubuntu arm package and toss in a flag :-/
[13:44] <nemo> didn't realise it would require a whole fresh new build against our sources
[13:45] <nemo> and I guess I didn't consider the SDL2 situation, since I figured that would work same as SDL1.2 so long as you had it installed on the arm device
[13:45] <mcphail> nemo: I think I'd need to build on an ARM device
[13:47] <mcphail> nemo: actually, might be able to force the sdl2/1.2 issue. The minor library APIs are identical between SDL2 and 1.2, aren;t they?
[13:47] <nemo> mcphail: AFAIK yes
[13:47] <nemo> well... the ones we use
[13:49] <mcphail> aaaaaaargh - just destroyed my chroot...
[13:49] <mcphail> (forgot to append :armhf to the apt-get...)
[13:49] <nemo> O_o
[13:50] <kenvandine> popey, ContentType.Events has landed in wily and vivid + overlay
[13:50] <mcphail> brain is spinning with all this :(
[13:50] <nemo> mcphail: welll, you miiight want to back up the .hg or .git dir if you were doing this from our sources instead of the ubuntu upstream
[13:50] <nemo> mcphail: since our full repo is... kinda huge
[13:50] <nemo> due to ogg/png
[13:50] <nemo> (if you're starting from scratch)
[13:50] <mcphail> nemo: don't worry - the repo is fine!
[13:54] <mcphail> nemo: needed an excuse to update to a 15.04 chroot anyway. This will probably take a couple of hours...
[13:54] <nemo> no rush... all our mobile everything has languished for years
[13:55] <mcphail> ooh - looks as if I have one already...
[13:56] <popey> (probably should move this porting stuff to -app-devel really)
[13:57] <mcphail> yep
[13:58] <nemo> heh. I just came here 'cause ogra_ recommended. and... man, there are a lot of #ubuntu*...
[14:05] <ogra_> nemo, its a hue community :)
[14:05] <ogra_> *huge
[14:08] <nemo> alis says 39 ubuntu channels w/ more than 50 participants. woah
[14:10] <sturmflut2> beuno: Is there a design document for the future features of the app store, especially the device UI?
[14:11] <ogra_> sturmflut2, there is someone working on a snap store for devices
[14:11] <ogra_> i doubt the old click store will see many new features
[14:11] <sturmflut2> ogra_: Ah, there will be a new one built from scratch?
[14:12] <ogra_> not sure, i just know someone works on it
[14:12] <ogra_> might be from scratch, might be re-using some of the click store
[14:12] <sturmflut2> ogra_: Any ETA for the snappyification of the phone images?
[14:12] <ogra_> nope ... during 15.10 i guess
[14:13] <ogra_> direct replacement will surely still take a while
[14:13] <ogra_> (that might become our most exciting OTA ever :) )
[14:13] <sturmflut2> ogra_: So basically it's "You'll get a shiny new store when your phone is switched to snappy, which is probably somewhere at the end of this year."
[14:14] <ogra_> pmcgowan, did you see bug 1472507 yet ? seems we have some pretty serious crashers on boot with the last image
[14:15] <ogra_> sturmflut2, well, the click store is indeed still maintained til then ... and it might get some new features, not sure
[14:16] <sturmflut2> ogra_: according to beuno someone with a little time on his hands is working on the search result sort order, but apart from that the store scope hasn't been seen an update for months I think.
[14:17] <ogra_> yeah
[14:17] <ogra_> it does the job ...
[14:17] <ogra_> (undoubtly it could be a lot better indeed)
[14:18] <beuno> sturmflut2, well, we had to pause that again
[14:18] <beuno> we know now how to tackle it
[14:19] <beuno> sturmflut2, none of the clients will be on the clients, though
[14:19] <beuno> it will all be server-side results order
[14:19] <pmcgowan> ogra_, oh crap
[14:19] <ogra_> pmcgowan, jibel broke it down to two other bugs for unity8 and -dash  i think
[14:20] <ogra_> it doesnt seem to cause issues after boot, though i had one strange complete hard UI hang today
[14:20] <pmcgowan> I see crash files also
[14:22]  * ogra_ really dislikes the new networking icons ... with every minute more
[14:23] <ogra_> and volume control only showing two steps now ... really ?
[14:23] <sturmflut2> beuno: Okay, thanks for letting us know. Is there a design document for the snappy store scope? I am asked quite a bit about new features for the existing one, and it would be nice to know if some of the requests will be implemented in the new store., and it would be
[14:23] <beuno> sturmflut2, that's an alecu question
[14:23] <sturmflut2> s/, and it would be//
[14:23] <sturmflut2> To alecu I go then!
[14:27] <alecu> hi sturmflut2!
[14:28] <sturmflut2> alecu: \o/
[14:28] <sturmflut2> alecu: So tell me all the secrets of the snappy store ;)
[14:28] <alecu> sturmflut2: we don't have a design document for the snappy scope yet. We are reusing the same design specs we had for the click scope
[14:29] <sturmflut2> alecu: So the snappy scope will be exactly the same as the click scope in the beginning?
[14:29] <alecu> sturmflut2: yes
[14:30] <alecu> sturmflut2: I was looking up for the existing designs for the click scope, but they don't seem to be public
[14:31] <alecu> sturmflut2: I'll ask around to see if they can be published, but anyway, they look 98% like the current click store scope
[14:33] <kyrofa> alecu, hello!
[14:33] <younix> hello every one.
[14:34] <sturmflut2> alecu: What is the correct channel for user feedback about the store scopes? Launchpad "Wishlist" bugs?
[14:34] <younix> i have a nexus 4 device and i want to install ubuntu-touch 15.10 on it.
[14:35] <dobey> sturmflut2, alecu: well i wouldn't think of the design as "the click scope design" and "the snappy scope design". the installed apps scope design is for the installed apps scope, and the app store scope design is for the app store. click and snappy are just implementation details underneath that
[14:35] <ogra_> younix, https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/start/ubuntu-for-devices/installing-ubuntu-for-devices/
[14:36] <younix> i have downloaded boot,recovery and touch images from cdimage.ubuntu.com but i don't know how to install ubuntu-touch from this images.
[14:36] <ogra_> younix, that is not how it works
[14:36] <ogra_> see the url above
[14:37] <younix> ogra_, i followed the instructions and installed ubuntu 15.04 but i want to install 15.10.
[14:38] <ogra_> younix, why ? it cant make calls and will likely break in other aspects too
[14:38] <ogra_> 15.10 is not intended to ever land on enduser devices
[14:39] <ogra_> if you want the latest and greatest phone development (in a usable state) use the rc-proposed channel
[14:39] <ogra_> that is 15.04 based with most phone packages coming from a separate archive
[14:39] <ogra_> (where the development happens)
[14:40] <younix> oh thanks ogra_ :)
[14:40] <ogra_> anyway, if you insist on 15.10 you can just switch to the devel-proposed channel ... you can do that on the device without reinstall
[14:40] <ogra_> (using system-image-cli with the --switch command ... see --help for more info)
[14:49] <alecu> sturmflut2: please open any such bugs about the store scopes in the click scope: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-scope-click/+filebug
[14:49] <sturmflut2> alecu: \o/
[14:50] <alecu> sturmflut2: if they are about UX improvements, I'll ask the design team to consider solutions to them
[14:52] <sturmflut2> alecu: We have quite some people asking for UI improvements, I'll pass that information on. Thanks a lot
[14:52] <alecu> sturmflut2: thank you
[14:53] <alecu> sturmflut2: and if you open any bugs about that, a mail to the phone mailing list would be useful too
[14:57] <sturmflut2> alecu: I think I might go through the store discussions we've had on the ML and check if there are already bugs open for the issues mentioned, then maybe open a couple of new ones, make a list and mail them to the ML
[14:58] <sturmflut2> alecu: Might take a while though
[15:53] <brunch875> new icons are... strange
[16:28] <brunch875> the app updates aren't downloading. Are the servers THAT busy?
[16:30] <ogra_> brunch875, should work again ... there was a small glitch in space and time ...
[16:30] <sturmflut2> ogra_: I updated to arale rc-proposed r51, and I think I share your hate for the new indicator icons.
[16:31] <ogra_> i didnt say hate :)
[16:31]  * ogra_ wouldnt go that far
[16:31] <ogra_> but only two steps in the volume icon now ... and i find all the network icons very ugly
[16:31] <brunch875> ogra_: stop using the servers to massively torrent
[16:31] <ogra_> the others are okayish
[16:33] <sturmflut2> ogra_: The "Notifications" icon doesn't fit in. All the others have an area filled with white, this one is just white lines filled with black.
[16:34] <ogra_> until you get a notification :)
[16:34] <ogra_> (it should just be hidden if there is nothin to notify about)
[16:34] <sturmflut2> So it no longer turns green?
[16:34] <ogra_> it turns green
[16:34] <ogra_> becoming filled with green :)
[16:35] <sturmflut2> Phew
[16:35] <sturmflut2> brunch875: Hm, you're right, app updates don't seem to download.
[16:35] <ogra_> they should again ... weird
[16:37] <popey> store is busted
[16:37] <popey> paging beuno
[16:38] <sturmflut2> It's probably because all those people are installing Panda Love
[16:38] <popey> yes. that's it
[16:39] <zubozrout> Hi, I've seen some comment on SDL apps that should just work on Ubuntu Phone without too much digging. Nice example are Neverball and Neverputt, but I have no idea what it takes to make such app working. Are there any guides or more detailed information on how to accomplish that? Thank you very much.
[16:39] <popey> i wonder if panda love gets more love than snowball world because sturmflut2 spammed that stupid panda about
[16:39] <popey> zubozrout: poke mcphail
[16:40] <zubozrout> popey Thanks :)
[16:40] <sturmflut2> popey: You might hate the panda, but he will always love you.
[16:40] <brunch875> the new icons look like alien technology
[16:41] <popey> stupid panda
[16:41] <ogra_> brunch875, yeah, we hired some in the design team :P
[16:41] <beuno> it's unbusted, no?
[16:41] <beuno> it was busted for a bit, popey
[16:41] <popey> still is here
[16:41] <ogra_> beuno, seems still broken
[16:41] <popey> nothing downloads
[16:41] <popey> (not just me)
[16:41] <brunch875> still busta for me
[16:42] <ogra_> popey, tried a reboot just for fun ?
[16:42] <ogra_> i wonder if download-manager hhangs in the back
[16:42] <popey> multiple devices
[16:42] <beuno> k, escalating again
[16:43] <popey> and yes, rebooted
[16:44] <kenvandine> bfiller, ContentType.Events also landed for vivid, not just wily
[16:45] <bfiller> kenvandine: you sure? didn't see it in the latest image
[16:45] <kenvandine> it landed 5 hours ago :)
[16:45] <bfiller> kenvandine: ok cool
[16:45] <kenvandine> bfiller, i confirmed it's in the overlay ppa
[16:45] <bfiller> great
[17:07] <peat-psuwit> Excuse me, what's the config for the "generic" device?
[17:14] <Isotop7> on monday i got my white arale...is ota 2 (which was installed right after i powered it up) the same as ota 4 for mako, etc? Am i able to switch to a proposed channel like i can with my mako?
[17:14] <ogra_> yes
[17:35] <Isotop7> ogra: yes regarding both of my questions?
[17:39] <ogra_> yes
[17:39] <ogra_> :)
[17:41] <Isotop7> oh okay...thanks...is there a way to backup my device before jumping channels via the recovery? when i try to get in it (volume up+power) i just see a ubuntu-purple screen with an ubuntu logo in the middle of it...
[17:42] <ogra_> via recovery ?
[17:42] <ogra_> why would you do that ?
[17:42] <ahayzen> Are click updates sitting at 0% when trying to download+install for anyone else when on the latest rc-proposed image?
[17:43] <ogra_> sudo system-image-cli --switch=the/channel/you/want -vvv
[17:43] <ogra_> ahayzen, see backlog ...
[17:43] <ogra_> server issue
[17:43] <Isotop7> okay...but if i would like to go back? is it also capable of that?
[17:43] <ahayzen> ah cool known about but system updates are cool it seems :-)
[17:44] <ogra_> just the same with the old channel name
[17:44] <Isotop7> thats marvelous :)
[17:44] <Isotop7> thank you, ogra!
[18:02] <popey> beuno: any update on the store?
[18:03] <beuno> popey, it's up, except for 27 apps
[18:03] <beuno> fixing those
[18:03] <popey> oh, neat
[18:04] <beuno> popey, looks like fixed just now
[18:04] <popey> \o/ thanks
[18:27] <Isotop7> while switching channel my arale is stuck with 'running group download refactor'
[18:27] <Isotop7> ?
[18:29] <ogra_> Isotop7, did you use -vvv ?
[18:29] <Isotop7> yes :)
[18:30] <ogra_> an dis the device online via wlan ?
[18:30] <ogra_> (i thought -vvv makes it print more ... )
[18:30] <Isotop7> it is :)
[18:30] <ogra_> well, it likely still downloads but doesnt print output
[18:31] <Isotop7> http://imgur.com/JvRcVMU
[18:31] <ogra_> as long as it doesnt print errors all should bee fine
[18:31] <ogra_> just give it some time for the download
[18:31] <Isotop7> is this command the same as invoking 'ubuntu-device-flash' on the connected host?
[18:31] <Isotop7> k
[18:32] <ogra_> it is similar
[18:33] <Isotop7> k
[18:36] <Isotop7> is my command 'sudo system-image-cli --switch=ubuntu-touch/rc-proposed/meizu.en valid? command stopped with timeout :/
[18:36] <Isotop7> im guessing im doing something horribly wrong :D
[18:37] <ogra_> yes, you use sudo su
[18:37] <ogra_> dont do that
[18:37] <Isotop7> okay....env problems?
[18:37] <ogra_> indeed
[18:38] <Isotop7> :facepalm:
[18:42] <tathhu> rip
[18:44] <tathhu> http://imgur.com/ckJzdZb any idea what game this is? :-)
[18:44] <ahayzen> tathhu, https://uappexplorer.com/app/com.ubuntu.developer.ken-vandine.pathwind
[18:45] <tathhu> ahayzen: thanks <3
[18:56] <Isotop7> its stuck...guess im waiting for ota 3!
[18:57] <ogra_> or use ubuntu-device-flash .... just dont use the --wipe or --bootstrap options ... then your data shouldnt be touched
[19:14] <Niedersachse> Hello from the Rhine river! Are you experienced with Ubuntu Touch? Can you recommend it - say, on a Google Nexus 10 - for an interested newbie?
[19:18] <Niedersachse> Anybody there? Anyone with some Ubuntu Touch experience?
[19:19] <ogra_> Niedersachse, pe a little patient, not everyone is watching IRC all the time (and it is more busy during european workdays)
[19:19] <ogra_> *ba a little
[19:19] <ogra_> bah
[19:19] <ogra_> *be
[19:21] <xhoch3> popey, when using the Ubuntu Phone, we noticed there is a quite distinctive lag in the animations, is this a known problem?
[19:22] <xhoch3> from a user perspective, this is something very hindering when trying to show the Ubuntu Phone to other people, usually the first comment is "god, this lags so much, this is an 8-core??"
[19:22] <xhoch3> I really wish I could help fix that/determine the source for the problem
[19:24] <kenvandine> xhoch3, are you talking about arale (the meizu)?
[19:24] <xhoch3> yes
[19:24] <kenvandine> i know the video driver has some issues
[19:24] <kenvandine> i don't see much lag on mine though
[19:24] <xhoch3> I had the Aquaris and it lagged a bit, but I thought it was because of the poor hardware
[19:24] <kenvandine> most noticable when flicking the apps scope
[19:25] <ogra_> it is very laggy ... the HW could fly with a better driver
[19:25] <xhoch3> oh, there is a lot, try the apps overview and move the finger slowly, it looks like 10-15 fps
[19:25] <Niedersachse> Thanks ogra, will do (I'm trying this out for the 1st time)
[19:25] <xhoch3> it almost jumps for frame to frame
[19:26] <xhoch3> are there any details? I think this is a very important thing, given that if affects just everything
[19:26] <kenvandine> xhoch3, i don't think there's anything we could do about that, the vendor needs to improve the driver :/
[19:27] <xhoch3> kenvandine, I thought maybe we can try what's possible, maybe contact the driver vendor?
[19:27] <xhoch3> what is it exactly? I haven't had a deeper look
[19:28] <xhoch3> PowerVR G6200 MP4
[19:28] <ogra_> Niedersachse, tablets are currently not really in development focus ... and the nexus10 specifically doesnt get much looked at ... so your mileage might vary
[19:40] <Niedersachse> Thanks ogra, that's good to know (althougn a pity, I think) - I was hoping to be among the happy crowd of "early adopters" after buying my first tablet and trying it out. All online reporting seems to stop in 2013 though - made me worry about the tablet section of the project. Would you recommend to get a different hardware instead or rather drop the idea altogether and stick with Android?
[19:41] <tnozyrox> Hello my bq works well, not lag 😀
[19:41] <ogra_> Niedersachse, well, the nexus7 works realtively well i heard ... and the n10 might even be fine it is just that it doesnt get much attention
[19:42] <ogra_> tnozyrox, yeah, the bq is fine and speedy :)
[20:04] <Niedersachse> ogra, ok, I might get me a used one and try it out after all then. Funny though that nobody seems to be interested in an Ubuntu tablet though, since Ubuntu is a great OS and this used to be the only officially supported hardware...?
[20:05] <xhoch3> kenvandine, I dropped Mediatek a mail
[20:05] <xhoch3> I recently bought a Meizu MX4 with Mediatek processor and thought it has a powerful GPU, but I was really disappointed. The UI lags visibly. I contacted the Ubuntu Phone developers and they claimed it is due to very bad driver performance under Linux and they can't do anything about it, because the source code is not free.
[20:05] <xhoch3> Why isn't it possible to release the source code, so people can freely improve the driver for you? I don't understand what's the benefit you have from annoying your customers with crappy closed-source drivers, so will not buy devices with MediaTek in the future?
[20:05] <xhoch3> If you allow, I would like to share your answer publicly, because there is a whole lot of people behind this request asking themselves the same question.
[20:05] <xhoch3> a bit pushy maybe :P but hey..
[20:06] <ogra_> xhoch3, i doubt mediatek has any interest in that
[20:07] <ogra_> xhoch3, we are using the android driver ... and meizu designed that combo of SGX gpu and MT core
[20:07] <ogra_> the hardware enablement team is in direct contact with meizu ...
[20:08] <xhoch3> ok, but obviously it doesn't work
[20:08] <ogra_> (and even with imagination tech. who maintains the PVR driver)
[20:08] <xhoch3> so who's to blame?
[20:09] <xhoch3> in the end, there can always be someone identified responsible
[20:09] <ogra_> time and manpower i guess
[20:09] <xhoch3> this is not an argument, make it open source, get the manpower
[20:09] <ogra_> well, feel free to buy imagination tech. and make it opensource
[20:10] <ogra_> (though that might be a prob since it is owned by apple, microsoft, arm, intel and others)
[20:10] <xhoch3> I feel free to not buy MediaTek anymore..
[20:10] <xhoch3> and lot of others will think similar
[20:10] <ogra_> you are barking up the wrong tree :)
[20:10] <ogra_> the bq devices both use mediatek too
[20:11] <ogra_> and their UI is fine
[20:11] <xhoch3> it's not, I have the Aquaris
[20:11] <xhoch3> it's lagging extremely, too
[20:11] <ogra_> well, for me it is
[20:11] <ogra_> i dont see any lag here
[20:11] <ogra_> moving my finger scrolls the UI just fine
[20:11] <xhoch3> ok, then you don't seem to notice :P
[20:12] <ogra_> like glued on ...
[20:12] <xhoch3> there is lag, I work in a company making mobile apps and all of my colleagues noticed
[20:12] <ogra_> i see lag in the browser and in some webapps at times
[20:12] <ogra_> but there is surely not the driver to blame
[20:13] <ogra_> anyway, the meizu issue is known and will be fixed at some point
[20:15] <xhoch3> I hope so, the device itself is nice, although the construction of the battery enclosure is bad (the edge stays a bit over, wearing off)
[20:16] <ogra_> are you sure you clipped it properly in ? mine is flat
[20:16] <xhoch3> yes, pretty sure, it's not much, like a tenth of a mm, but you can feel it with your fingertip
[20:17] <ogra_> (i got a grey pre-production device though, perhaps there are minor differences in the back covers)
[20:17] <xhoch3> only at the top, just checked
[20:19] <xhoch3> on the bottom left I can press the corner like almost half a mm in
[20:20] <xhoch3> top left, too
[20:59] <matv1> sorry to asked whats probably been asked before, but shell rotation is now in full swing except for scopes. They stick to the primary orientation of the device.
[20:59] <matv1> So how do I change the default?
[21:03]  * matv1 is thinking midnight is probably not the best of times to ask something like that :)
[21:23] <popey> matv1: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ux/+bug/1465331
[21:27] <matv1> popey thnx :)
[21:28]  * matv1 should be making a hotkey for the previous string
[21:36] <matv1> popey However, that bug only relates to display confusion on the device itself.
[21:36] <matv1> I was thinking along the lines of problems whith convergence. Simply put: would a phone attached to a screen that obviously likes landscape, still show the scopes locked to portrait?
[21:37] <matv1> or am i missing the point
[21:37] <dobey> i would guess at some point, the scopes would be hidden when attached to a screen, and you have to hit the BFB to get them to slide out, just like in unity7
[21:38] <dobey> having a window always open for scopes is kind of weird
[21:39] <matv1> dobey ah that sounds resonable.
[21:43] <dobey> at least, that's what i'd expect to see at some point. maybe the design team has some other idea of how that will work though
[21:44] <matv1> dobey any idea how scopes get their forced orientation atm though? I assume scopes can not own a .desktop file right?
[21:51] <dobey> i don't know what you mean about forced orientation
[21:52] <dobey> if you mean the dash itself does not rotate, that would be the dash itself
[21:52] <dobey> scopes have no UI. the dash owns all UI for scopes
[21:57] <matv1> yes ofcourse. I did miss the point. And dash orientation would be handled inside unity presumably
[21:57] <dobey> yes, the dash is part of unity8
[21:57] <dobey> it is an app separate from the shell
[21:59] <matv1> right


[01:02] <apachelogger> persia: ahoy, now that nixternal did a +1 on Quintasan's application I suppose quorum is reached and Quintasan can be confirmed to be motu?
[01:05] <persia> apachelogger: I'll probably do that today.  I was just kinda hoping that the others would chime in, but they failed to respond to requests.
[01:05] <persia> apachelogger: Is there some urgency that means it should be done *now*, or would in a few hours be just as good?
[02:53] <ScottK> dktrkranz: When you merge csound, please be sure to bump the boost build deps (we're aiming for 1.40)
[03:46] <ScottK> bddebian: Does mapnik build with boost1.40 on Debian?
[03:51] <bddebian> ScottK: Haven't tried, would you like me to?
[03:51] <ScottK> bddebian: Yes.  Please.
[03:55] <bddebian> pbuilding...
[03:58] <ScottK> Thanks.
[04:00] <LucidFox> Can an orig.tar.gz include free TTF fonts?
[04:01] <bddebian> Shouldn't
[04:01]  * LucidFox nods
[04:02] <ScottK> LucidFox: As long as you use the system fonts and they are appropriately licensed, it's no problem.
[04:02] <ScottK> (i.e. don't use the code copies shipped in the tarball in your build)
[04:02] <bddebian> ScottK: Getting some warnings about deprecated headers but so far it's going
[04:09] <ScottK> bddebian: I got to /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_python-mt
[04:10] <bddebian> ScottK: Yep, it built
[04:11] <bddebian> Hmm, strange
[04:11] <ScottK> Any suggestions how I might figure that out?
[04:15] <bddebian> ScottK: I assume that lib does exist?
[04:16]  * ScottK goes to inspect the .deb
[04:16] <bddebian> Is it pulling in libboost-python-dev?
[04:19] <ScottK> Yes and yes.
[04:19] <bddebian> Very odd
[04:20] <ScottK> Maybe ajmitch knows since he's officially our boost-python expert now.
[04:20] <bddebian> w00t :)
[04:21] <ScottK> (He fixed a bug in it, so that makes him the expert.
[04:21] <ScottK> )
[04:21] <bddebian> WFM :)
[04:22] <dtchen> does anyone have access to an armel porter?
[04:23] <dtchen> I'm getting a slew of FTBFS that I can't easily test :(
[04:26] <ScottK> There's a armel PPA that Canonical devs have access to.
[04:27] <ScottK> Other than that, I think you need ogra_ or NCommander.
[05:37] <fabrice_sp> bigon,  why do you need sponsorship on bug 427542: you're a motu, right?
[05:40] <dtchen> fabrice_sp: his membership in MOTU is active, at least
[05:40] <dtchen> so, yes
[05:41] <fabrice_sp> dtchen, that's what I thought: as this package was in main some releasea ago, I think he got 'distracted' :-)
[05:41] <fabrice_sp> thanks  to confirm ;-)
[06:05] <siretart`> Whoopie: IIRC we disabled dv support because vlc needed porting to the new API, or there was some general breakage with dv support. Have you tested that dv actually works?
[06:06] <siretart`> Whoopie: in any case, I've pointed xtophe to your patch, he takes a look and will probably apply it for the 1.0.4-1 upload
[06:34] <dtchen> mm, I can ditch the "nvidia" driver completely, because "nv" works great in Lucid
[06:42] <bjsnider> dtchen, is that a joke?
[06:48] <dtchen> absolutely not
[06:49] <dtchen> granted, I don't use anything requiring libGL.so.1, so my particular case is limited
[06:49] <bjsnider> the nv driver is there to provide basic mode-setting so you don't see a black screen the first time you boot linux
[06:49] <bjsnider> it's a transitional driver
[06:50] <bjsnider> nouveau and nvidia are much better
[06:50] <dtchen> I don't much care, frankly; if nv gives me x-terminal-emulators, I'm golden
[06:50] <maco2> who needs compositing?
[06:51] <maco2> dtchen: wait why dont you just use screen in a tty? it can do tiling
[06:51] <dtchen> I do use tmux/screen.
[06:51] <bjsnider> maco, human beings walking around on this earth
[06:52] <bjsnider> but i never mentioned compositing
[06:52] <maco2> well thats the point of using nvidia instead of nv, isnt it? because nv is 2D-only. i kinda though nouveau was still rather experimental though
[06:53] <maco2> *thought
[06:53] <bjsnider> nv has no xv or vdpau
[06:53] <bjsnider> font rendering is probably a mess
[06:54] <bjsnider> no power management. no support for xrandr 1.2
[06:54] <bjsnider> not much of anything
[06:54] <bjsnider> of course the blob doesn't support xrandr 1.2 yet either
[06:54] <bjsnider> but nouveau does
[06:54] <bjsnider> nouveau works great, but possibly not in lucid yet
[06:54] <dtchen> font rendering is fine
[06:55] <dtchen> I used nv for about nine hours without realizing it
[06:55] <bjsnider> dtchen, you don't use your rig for anything interesting? it's all just coding shell scripts in gedit?
[06:56] <dtchen> gedit's a bit too fancy for my lazy self
[06:56] <bjsnider> why not just boot to a back screen then...
[06:56] <dtchen> I do.
[06:57] <bjsnider> just you know, install the kernel by itself
[06:57] <Quintasan> hi
[06:57] <maco2> bjsnider: because sometimes he uses firefox instead of lynx
[06:57] <dtchen> geez, the point is that I can finally kill off the last non-Free driver
[06:58] <maco2> you could've just gotten intel graphics and not had to worry about it :P
[06:58] <bjsnider> nouveau is foss
[06:58] <maco2> yes, his point is he can ditch the binary nvidia driver
[06:58] <bjsnider> but he's not using the best foss driver
[06:59] <maco2> he doesnt care which alternative to go to, it just so happens that nv is on his system and works, so he's going with it
[06:59] <bjsnider> was my point
[06:59] <maco2> if it works, does it matter?
[06:59] <dtchen> I'm sure there are more optimal methods, but I can't be arsed; I'd rather fix this pot of audio bugs.
[07:00] <maco2> hmm though now you've got me wondering... is there a curses calendar app i could use with mutt to ditch kontact?
[07:43] <dholbach> good morning
[07:43] <persia> dtchen: I've got an armel jaunty box (haven't been able to upgrade yet).  Is there something I could test with that?
[07:59] <RAOF> bjsnider: If things go well, nouveau will be the default for lucid, so daniel will be using it instead of nv :)
[08:56] <bigon> fabrice_sp: right the pkg was previously in main, my bad
[09:03] <paultag> o/ MOTU, I have a question about the process of importing from debian
[09:03] <persia> paultag: ask it :)
[09:03] <paultag> do we use the dsc and modify the control / changelog and use that, or do we take the upstream tgz and recreate the debian folder
[09:03] <paultag> persia, sheesh, I was working on it :P
[09:04] <persia> paultag: Sorry.  We get lots of folk who ask to ask and need prompting.
[09:04] <paultag> persia, I know that deal ;)
[09:07] <m4rtin> hi all; I submitted a patch for sponsorship review (regression fix) over a month ago and haven't heard anything. Any ideas; core team v. busy? (it's in bash-completion)
[09:08] <persia> m4rtin: Which is the bug number?
[09:09]  * persia can't help get it merged, but may be able to help check process compliance
[09:09] <m4rtin> #449349
[09:10] <persia> bug #449349
[09:13] <persia> m4rtin: So, is broken in lucid as well as karmic?
[09:13] <m4rtin> persia: I would assume so... it was broken *in* Karmic, so I wrote a fix which someone then suggested I try to get into lucid
[09:15] <m4rtin> It was owing to a bash version upgrade and the bash_completion script being incompatible
[09:15] <persia> m4rtin: So, basically you just want someone to upload the debdiff in comment #45 ?
[09:15] <persia> (and then maybe you'll look at karmic, but that's process stuff for later)
[09:17] <m4rtin> persia: #25 I believe... as for Karmic, I was lead to believe that this would not be ported back as an update...? Is that incorrect? I've been using the fix on my Karmic systems with no problems...
[09:18] <persia> m4rtin: #25, riht.  Sorry.  Dunno how I imagined the extra 20 comments.
[09:18] <persia> It looks to me like you've done everything correctly, and are just stuck waiting for a sponsor.
[09:19] <m4rtin> persia: yeah, I thought so - I'll just sit tight
[09:20] <m4rtin> (my first patch, so I didn't know what to expect)
[09:20] <persia> m4rtin: Yeah.  Sometimes it's slow.  Sorry about that.
[09:21] <m4rtin> it also fixes another very irritating issue in the same package that has existed since 8.10 - ssh completion puts far too many \ characters in to escape spaces and thereby makes it useless for completing more than 1 directory - it's all in the changelog though :)
[09:22] <persia> m4rtin: On the bright side, it looks like it got confirmed as a regression by the update verification team, which means that it's probably getting a bit more visibility than it would otherwise
[09:22] <persia> (but that was a couple weeks ago)
[09:23] <m4rtin> persia: yeah, I saw that; guess they were busy with featuredefinitionfreeze recently, but hey, at some point they'll see it I'm sure
[09:24] <persia> We can certainly hope.
[10:23] <Whoopie> siretart: yes, the DV plugin works under karmic, I don't have a lucid installation.
[10:23] <Whoopie> siretart: I added vlc 1.0.3 to my PPA and enabled DV support for testing.
[10:28] <siretart`> Whoopie: I'd say then feel free to upload the change to lucid :-)
[10:28] <siretart`> Whoopie: or even better, let's discuss this on<EMAIL_ADDRESS>and get this change into debian proper
[10:42] <Whoopie> siretart`: I can't upload anything.
[10:43] <maxb> wiki/SponsorshipProcess doesn't say much about what needs to appear in a merge-sponsorship-request bug. Should I be describing the changes, or should I assume that the sponsor will prefer to read the diff and debian/changelog anyway, so a brief "please merge this" is ok?
[10:46] <persia> I like to get a quick description of the patch.
[10:46] <persia> Something like "Here's something that addresses ${issue} for ${release}
[10:46] <persia> Just to have some idea what I'm looking at.
[10:46] <persia> Yes, the sponsor will be reading the diff and changelog, but a little advance hint never hurts :)
[10:47] <persia> maxb: Actually, in the specific case of merges, some people like more.
[10:47] <persia> For instance, some people like to have the imported Debian/changelog entries summarised in the bug (the ones coming from Debian).
[10:48] <persia> This is less important before Debian Import Freeze, and it would be nice to merge everything.
[10:48] <persia> But after that it becomes more important, as it lets the sponsor make a more informed decision as to whether it's worth digging into the details
[10:57] <siretart`> Whoopie: okay, I'll remember that when uploading to and merging from debian
[11:00] <persia> maxb: The only relevant thing I find in the wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging?action=show&redirect=MOTU%2FHowToMerge#File%20a%20merge%20bug
[11:01] <persia> Which doesn't seem to ask for that much info.  I personally tend to file as much info as I would for a sync, but it may not matter.
[11:04] <maxb> ok, thanks for the info :-)
[12:21] <RoAkSoAx> hey guys is merges.ubuntu.com been updated regularly?
[12:22] <slytherin> RoAkSoAx: It should be. What is the problem?
[12:23] <RoAkSoAx> slytherin, some debian package versions are still not updated in the universe list even though the debian package has been in testing for quite a few days
[12:23] <slytherin> RoAkSoAx: any example?
[12:23] <RoAkSoAx> slytherin, apgdiff (its been in testing for 4 days :) ) Or, how much does it take to update the list?
[12:24] <slytherin> RoAkSoAx: As far as I knew it used to be updated daily. May be that has changed recently.
[12:25] <RoAkSoAx> slytherin, prolly its is because they want us to change to distributed development or because the new debian source format
[12:26] <RoAkSoAx> s/prolly/probably :)
[12:26] <slytherin> AFAIK, MoM has support for new source format.
[12:27] <RoAkSoAx> slytherin, yeah but they were doing some tests this past few days in building the packages to see if they can change or not since I think some packages were FTBFS
[12:28] <slytherin> RoAkSoAx: Was that related to MoM or Launchpad?
[12:28] <RoAkSoAx> slytherin, Launchpad
[12:28] <persia> Launchpad still needs a bit of work in order to support uploads of the new format, but I'm not certain this is related to MoM
[12:28] <RoAkSoAx> slytherin, do you know who maintains those lists?
[12:29] <slytherin> nope
[12:29] <slytherin> persia: AFAIK, source format 3.0 landed in edge.launchpad.net
[12:30] <persia> slytherin: I heard it was disabled pending some software upgrades.
[12:30] <persia> (that was from #launchpad sometime in the last 12 hours)
[12:31] <slytherin> Ok. Then you have latest info. I was only tracking the bug.
[13:08] <Laney> launchpad but not the buildds, afaik
[14:16] <slytherin> If a library has some part sunder this license it is free enough to be included in archives - Smack contains icons and images licensed from INCORS GmbH. You are not licensed to use these icons outside of Smack.
[14:16] <persia> Erm.
[14:16] <persia> I'd say that belongs in multiverse, personally.
[14:21] <Whoopie> jdong: Hi, sorry for prodding but how do we continue with bug 481448?
[14:21] <Whoopie> jdong: I just need someone to upload the package.
[14:23] <slytherin> persia: the icons will be included in jar file and not be available separately.
[14:23] <persia> slytherin: Right, but I don't think it's DFSG free.
[14:24] <slytherin> that is bad then. :-( I will ask on Debian lists.
[14:24] <persia> I don't think that icons packaged that way meet the requirements for #3 and #6 at http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
[14:24] <persia> Yeah, ask Debian.  I'm probably extra picky :)
[14:26] <slytherin> Whoopie: You should bug RainCT about that.
[14:30] <slytherin> persia: And what if the library which includes the icons is not being packaged at all? I mean there are 3 jars in the package and only one contains these icons. I am not planning to ship this jar in any binary package.
[14:31] <Laney> I'd repack to remove it then
[14:31] <persia> slytherin: I don't think it matters: the *source* needs to be DFSG free (well UFSG, which is basically DFSG + a couple specific exceptions)
[14:31] <persia> Because the source is *also* being distributed.
[14:31] <persia> But send a note to debian-legal explaining the details and your plans, and see what they say.
[14:31] <slytherin> Ok. Then repacking makes sense. That way source becomes DFSG free and binary has no problems.
[14:32] <persia> That also works :)
[14:32] <slytherin> by the way looking at quality of icons I am wondering why they are bothering with shipping them at all.
[14:32] <persia> heh :)
[14:39] <mterry> persia, I was looking at the link at the top of REVU to the diff file: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/revu1-incoming/netbook-launcher-efl-0912171333/netbook-launcher-efl_<IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu1.diff
[14:40] <Rhonda> Oh, CoC 1.1 finally arrived. :)
[14:40] <persia> You're looking at an old revision: see http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/revu1-incoming/netbook-launcher-efl-0912171439/netbook-launcher-efl_<IP_ADDRESS>-0ubuntu1.diff
[14:41] <Rhonda> ... but somehow the release date can't be proper, 2005-04-12. :D
[14:41] <persia> heh, no.
[14:41] <mterry> persia, Huh.  Yeah, I went to the main REVU page and landed on the new page.  I guess I didn't realize I could get stuck on an old revision
[14:41] <Laney> Rhonda: That's because the old CoC is considered to be compatible with this one
[14:41] <Laney> (so as not tp
[14:41] <Laney> to expire old signatures)
[14:41] <persia> mterry: Each revision is separately available for detailed review :)
[14:42] <Rhonda> Laney: Erm.  "The current version is 1.1, released 2005-04-12"
[14:42] <persia> Laney: Except the content changed: how are we to know if we agree with the current version?
[14:42]  * persia does, but is curious about the abstract
[14:42] <mterry> persia, still can't upload, as eina and friends aren't updated in lucid.  Well, I could push, but it would be dependency wait.
[14:42] <Rhonda> Laney: I have no clue what you refer to so that old signatures don't expire, but that sounds pretty fishy.
[14:42] <Laney> Rhonda, persia: Yeah, I'm just the messenger
[14:42] <persia> mterry: Your call, rally.
[14:43] <mterry> persia, they did that to not invalidate old signatures, under the theory that the changes were not substantive
[14:43] <persia> Laney: Understood.  We just kinda hoped you had a larger message :)
[14:43] <Laney> Rhonda: So if people agreed to the older version then LP considers that they agree to 1.1
[14:43] <persia> Um, the changes are substantive enough that we've an *active* developer (Rhonda) who has been waiting for them for almost two years.
[14:43] <Rhonda> Laney: And that for the page has to lie about the release date of the 1.1 version?
[14:43] <Laney> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/479870/comments/3
[14:44] <Laney> Rhonda: That's because LP compares the date released to the date signed to see which versions of the CoC you have agreed to
[14:44] <persia> Oh, so it's an implementation trick.
[14:44] <Laney> ...so they couldn't update the date released without expiring all old sigs
[14:44] <Laney> yes
[14:45] <persia> Well, they *could*, but it would require coding changes, etc.
[14:45] <Whoopie> slytherin: where can I find him/her?
[14:45] <Laney> right
[14:45] <persia> (which is more delay)
[14:45] <Laney> they couldn't *as it stands now*
[14:45] <persia> Right.
[14:46] <slytherin> Whoopie: him, right here, have patience.
[14:46] <Whoopie> slytherin: ok, thanks
[14:48] <Rhonda> Laney: A wording change would be appropriate then. This is just confusing as it stands now. :(
[14:48] <Laney> Rhonda: I agree. Perhaps you could file an LP bug?
[14:49] <Rhonda> Yes, am already wondering wether launchpad-registry is the proper target? :)
[14:49] <Rhonda> ... actually, was just about to ask exactly that. :)
[14:49] <Laney> a) Fix the "date released" thing. b) Fix the semantics of signing previous versions — just need to make it clear that signing old versions is still acceptable for being an Ubuntu member, etc
[14:50] <Laney> Rhonda: Not sure, I'd just file to Launchpad and let it be triaged
[14:50] <Laney> or you could ask in #launchpad
[14:50] <mterry> persia, my irc client must be confused, I don't see any admins of this channel.  I'm assuming you're one?  Can you mark me a reviewer in the REVU database
[14:51] <persia> REVU admins and #ubuntu-motu admins aren't the same set, but yeah, I'm supposed to be able to do that
[14:51]  * persia hasn't done it in a while, so it may take a few minutes
[14:52] <persia> BY the way, the Statistics page on REVU has a list of all the admins
[14:53] <mterry> persia, oh, the REVU wiki page is unclear on the distinction.  let me edit.  How is someone supposed to know set of REVU admins?
[14:53] <mterry> persia, heh, whoops.  OK
[14:53] <shriekout> http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/happytimer
[14:53] <shriekout> please... advice....
[14:53] <persia> mterry: Should work now.
[14:53] <persia> (and as our newest reviewer, maybe you want the latest review request ? )
[14:54] <mterry> persia, I'll start with netbook-launcher-efl
[14:55] <persia> shriekout: I don't have time for a proper review of happytimer right now, but I'll give you a capsule one here
[14:56] <persia> Priority "extra" is for packages that break things or conflict with core: you want Priority "optional"
[14:56] <shriekout> :)
[14:56] <shriekout> yes...
[14:56] <shriekout> thanks :)
[14:57] <persia> shriekout: Please add a debian/watch file or get-orig-source rule
[14:57] <shriekout> humm...
[14:57] <persia> Err, ignore that.  The diff is sorted differently than I expected :(
[14:58] <shriekout> :)
[14:58] <persia> I don't see anything else quick-like.
[14:58] <persia> But I'm doing a few other things: maybe someone else can do a full review, or I'll catch it later.
[14:58] <shriekout> yes..
[14:59] <shriekout> persia, thanks :)
[14:59] <persia> Nice work!
[14:59] <Rhonda> Laney, persia: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/497785
[14:59] <shriekout> have a nice day :)
[14:59] <persia> shriekout: Well, l'm an hour east of you, but thanks :)
[15:00] <shriekout> :)
[15:00] <persia> Rhonda: Thanks for the pointer.
[15:00] <shriekout> i'm a korean... I’m not so good at English... sorry...
[15:02] <shriekout> thanks persia for your advice :)
[15:02]  * Rhonda thanks persia and Laney :)
[15:03] <persia> Rhonda: I'm not sure I deserve that, but you're always welcome :)
[15:03] <Rhonda> You do deserve more. :)
[15:05] <jpds> Rhonda: dholbach was the person who landed the coc-1.1 branch.
[15:06] <Rhonda> jpds: I'm aware of that. :)  But this isn't about the CoC itself, rather about wording on the codeofconduct page in launchpad.
[15:13] <ulysses__> Hello, I am working on bug 497742
[15:13] <ulysses__> I want a littlhe help: what should I write in the control file for Build depends?
[15:15] <persia> ulysses__: That's usually best detemined by trial and error.
[15:15] <persia> But you might look at some other plasmoids, and start with a minimal set like that.
[15:15] <persia> You might also get more specific advise in #kubuntu-devel (although there are often a fair number of KDE people here).
[15:15] <ulysses__> Thanks
[15:34] <Quintasan> dholbach: I sent you answers for Behind MOTU, the picture of me is just... well I'll wait for your reaction :P
[15:35] <Laney> I forgot to respond to that when I got MOTU :(
[15:36] <Quintasan> Laney: what a shame, you are missing you opportunity for international fame, tons of money and girls ;)
[15:36] <Quintasan> your*
[15:37] <dholbach> Laney: do it
[15:37] <dholbach> Quintasan: I'll have a look in a bit
[15:37] <Quintasan> dholbach: Great :)
[15:37] <matti> dholbach: ;]
[15:40] <bddebian> Heya gang
[15:41] <Quintasan> bddebian: \o
[15:41] <bddebian> Hello Quintasan
[15:43] <paultag> Hey guys, I have a quick question about importing from debian -- do we use the dsc and modify the control / changelog and use that, or do we take the upstream tgz and recreate the debian folder, any links or help would be well recieved :)
[15:49] <ScottK> paultag: Hopefully we don't make any change at all.
[15:50] <ScottK> If some change is needed, it's use the .dsc, modify changelog, control, etc.
[15:50] <paultag> ScottK, I'm doing upstream, and I wanted to submit it for Ubuntu review
[15:50] <paultag> ScottK, so it's OK to use the dsc and make small changes to control / changelog?
[15:51] <ScottK> Yes.
[15:51] <paultag> ScottK, thanks :)
[16:08] <machina> anyone know how to make a diff that would remove binary files?
[16:09] <persia> machina: You can't.
[16:09] <Laney> you can't remove files, only reduce them to emptiness
[16:09] <persia> (limitation of patch)
[16:09] <persia> machina: You could delete stuff in debian/rules clean: (which is what some people do)
[16:09] <persia> But if they are non-free binaries, you need to repack or complain to upstream.
[16:10] <machina> that's kinda upsetting...
[16:11] <machina> they aren't non-free, it just looks like the author, run ./configure or make in his new upstream
[16:12] <machina> should I just not worry about the object files & binary file then?
[16:18] <machina> I'll send a message to upstream though
[17:44] <Emanem> Hi all, I have an issue with Ubuntu deb creation
[17:44] <Emanem> is there anyone able to help?
[17:45] <persia> !ask
[17:47] <Emanem> ok... I'm assembling by hand a deb file
[17:47] <persia> Ah.  You probably don't want to start from there :)
[17:47] <persia> Do you have source?
[17:47] <Emanem> I've created the debian-binary and the archive with control (control.tar.gz) and data (data.tar.gz)
[17:47] <Emanem> no
[17:48] <Emanem> I'll release the source as tar.bz2 plus just 2 packages for ubuntu 32 and 64
[17:48] <Emanem> and I just want to created a deb file with 1 only executable
[17:48] <azeem> Emanem: assembling by hand is discouraged
[17:48] <Emanem> btw I've coded and compiled the binary
[17:48] <Emanem> why?
[17:49] <Emanem> then what can I use?
[17:49] <azeem> it's not easily reproducable
[17:49] <Emanem> this software is .2 and wanted to release the source plus 32 and 64 deb just for testing purposes (eg for people that don't want to recomile it)
[17:50] <Emanem> so which tools can I use?
[17:51] <persia> Emanem: Create a source package, and then get it built somewhere to generate your .debs.
[17:51] <Emanem> why do I have to do so?
[17:52] <Emanem> my deb consist of 2 dependencies and 1 only executable
[17:52] <Emanem> plus I'm using a simple Makefile to build my project, don't want to include the ./configure etc etc
[17:53] <geser> Emanem: how can I be sure that the binary you build matches the source?
[17:54] <wrapster> hi all.. when i dist upgrade is done this is the error I get... http://pastie.org/747466
[17:54] <wrapster> its not ubuntu ... but related to packaging so asking here...
[17:54] <wrapster> could anyone please help me understand what this means and about any ideas as to how i can resolve it?
[17:55] <Emanem> persia , geser : I don't think honestly, I'll provide the sources with GPLv3, so people will be able to rebuild themselves. Packages are only for people which don't want to rebuild it
[17:55] <Emanem> that's why I want to include an executable
[17:55] <persia> Emanem: See, you create a source package, and you have it built, and users can get the binaries.
[17:56] <Emanem> I'm getting this error btw: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1356471
[17:56] <persia> We just don't have any good tools for assembling binary packages directly.
[17:56] <Emanem> sorry but doesn't the deb format rely on ar ?
[17:57] <Emanem> I don't understand this then... how can people like Skype provide proper packages?
[17:57] <geser> Emanem: and an user can also use the source package if he needs to modify your program (e.g. apply a patch, build with newer libs, etc.) to build a new deb
[17:58] <Emanem> geser :  the program will be released under gplv3, so they'll be free to do whatever they want :)
[17:58] <Emanem> the point is, there must be a proper guide/howto to explain the format/which tools/programs are used to create proper packages
[17:58] <geser> Emanem: sure, but without a source package it harder to them to build an updated deb (or do you ship a script to hand-build a deb?)
[17:59] <Emanem> geser: latter could be... but even not, the program is simple
[17:59] <persia> Or better stated: it's harder for *you* to build a binary package.
[18:00] <Emanem> so, what am I doing wrong? the error I'm having when I try to install the deb is : dpkg-deb: file `/home/ema/TEST/packages/TEST-0.2_amd64.deb' is not a debian binary archive (try dpkg-split?)
[18:00] <geser> Emanem: Skype probably use a source package too, they just skip the compilation during the package building and install the pre-built binaries
[18:01] <geser> Emanem: how did you assemble the deb? (the last step)
[18:01] <persia> I thought Skype used a source package and just didn't share the source.
[18:02] <Emanem> geser: "ar -r mypackage-2.0_amd64.deb control.tar.gz data.tar.gz debian-binary"
[18:03] <geser> persia: I don't know, I just assumed
[18:03] <persia> Emanem: We're not really prepared to help you do it that way.  None of us do it that way.
[18:04] <Emanem> Sorry guys, but can you please point me to the script that is assembling the last step? I fear that I have to manually modify the "archived" (ar -r) file
[18:05] <geser> Emanem: although debs are 'ar' archives, dpkg doesn't like all (don't know the details)
[18:05] <Emanem> and how are these created? which tool?
[18:06] <persia> We use debuild or dpkg-buildpackage on source packages to generate binary package.
[18:06] <persia> So we really don't know the manual process.
[18:07] <persia> (or we use sbuild or pdebuild or upload to some archive)
[18:07] <Emanem> sorry but there must be some sort of tools used to produce proper deb if ar can't be used...
[18:08] <geser> in the end dpkg-deb creates the deb, but as persia said, without a reason nobody looks at the low-level steps to build a packages
[18:09] <persia> Emanem: You really will find your life easier if you just create a few files in debian/ in your source and run debuild.
[18:09] <persia> It's not a clean package, but it's easier than trying to create binary packages manually.
[18:10] <Emanem> persia: what is debian/ ? maybe I'm missing that bit
[18:10] <persia> !packaging
[18:10] <persia> Emanem: Take a look at our packaging guide.
[18:11] <persia> Basically, to create a package, unpack your source tarball, create a debian/ directory, add copyright, changelog, control, compat, and rules, and build.
[18:11] <persia> (it can get more complex, but that's the high-level overview)
[18:11] <Emanem> ubottu: the guide is broken
[18:14] <Emanem> persia: do you know where can I find the online sources of dpkg-buildpackage so I can look them myself?
[18:16] <Emanem> (I'm tempted to release the 2 binaries without any deb package...and btw this is why devs have hard time doing these things... how comes that one has to use 3/4 scripts to basically create an archive file (deb)?)
[18:16] <persia> apt-get source dpkg-dev
[18:16] <geser> Emanem: http://git.debian.org/?p=dpkg/dpkg.git
[18:16] <Emanem> thanks geser
[18:16] <geser> Emanem: http://git.debian.org/?p=dpkg/dpkg.git;a=blob;f=scripts/dpkg-buildpackage.pl;h=cf39187aa0726ef68b034012828f0920df80aeaa;hb=HEAD
[18:19] <Emanem> The error I get is thrown here: http://git.debian.org/?p=dpkg/dpkg.git;a=blob;f=dpkg-deb/extract.c;h=cd8332282f6261903af6d62d4fad3667a1931474;hb=HEAD#l147
[18:21] <Emanem> LOL found out the error
[18:22] <Emanem> dpkg expects the first file of the archive to be debian-binary... omg...
[18:22] <Emanem> so even order matters...
[18:24] <Emanem> well now I'm getting another error... I guess I'll source-debug dpkg and eventually find out all the issues and fix them...
[18:24] <Emanem> thanks guys for the dpkg sources
[18:25] <persia> Emanem: You really might have an easier time with a source package :)
[18:26] <Emanem> persia: I'm more a software dev/computer scientist and actually when something doesn't properly work I really enjoy dig, understand and (possibly) fix
[18:26] <Emanem> thanks for suggestions anyway :)
[18:30] <Emanem> persia, geser: YESSS! I did it! :-)
[18:31] <blackxored> I need an sru for azureus in karmic
[18:31] <ScottK> !SRU
[18:32] <blackxored> s/I need an sru/I need to do an sru
[18:33] <blackxored> the azureus issue
[18:33] <blackxored> is confirmed
[18:33] <blackxored> can't run <IP_ADDRESS> in karmic anymore
[18:33] <blackxored> so I got <IP_ADDRESS> in lucid
[18:33] <blackxored> how to proceed?
[18:33] <blackxored> this bug
[18:34] <blackxored> Bug #488507
[18:34] <Emanem> persia, geser: One last question: are the following libraries [libstdc++.so.6 , libm.so.6, libgcc_s.so.1, libpthread.so.0 ] installed by default on every Ubuntu system, am I correct? I guess nothing would run without those...
[18:37] <ScottK> blackxored: Generally SRU should be a patch targetted to solve a specific problem.  You should probably discuss it with someone in ubuntu-sru.  IIRC jdong is both on ubuntu-sru and familiar with azureus.
[18:37] <blackxored> ScottK, thanks
[18:37] <geser> Emanem: you can assume that. they are so low in the dependency chain, that nothing is left if you try to remove them
[18:38] <Emanem> geser: I definitely would imagine that after 10+ years c/c++, but you know, better double check than have bad surprises...
[18:40] <geser> you might need to check if you need special symbols that only appear since a specific version
[18:42] <awe> lool, james_w: do either of you guys know what the deal is with merge-o-matic ( merges.ubuntu.com )?  is it supposed to be up-to-date?
[18:42] <james_w> I think it keeps falling over
[18:43] <awe> I did a merge two weeks ago for gst-plugins-bad, and it hasn't updated...
[18:45] <geser> last I heard MoM still doesn't like format 3.0 packages (even with the backported dpkg), don't know if it got fixed
[20:04] <tombee> Are there any opportunities to get involved with security programming in Ubuntu? :)
[20:06] <kees> tombee: sure thing.  see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam
[20:06] <tombee> Wow great, thanks kees
[20:06] <kees> np.  we hang out in #ubuntu-hardened  (redirected from #ubuntu-security)  see the bottom of that page for the GettingInvolved link
[20:07] <tombee> The thing is I'm not that experienced in software security, but it's something I'd like to gain experience in and educate myself in :)
[20:08] <tombee> So I'm not sure how I would go about 'getting started'
[20:11] <tombee> kees: the roadmap looks good though :)
[21:48] <Rhonda> I wonder… I merged multiple accounts into my rhonda account. With that came various mail addresses. If I remove those addresses, will the merge be undone, or would that only affect future stuff that would get imported with those addresses?
[21:51] <geser> I guess you need to ask in #launchpad to get an answer (or even file a question)
[21:55] <persia> Rhonda: I'd recommend just hiding the addresses, unless there's some special reason to forcibly remove them.
[21:55] <Rhonda> Yeah, they are hidden anyway.
[21:56] <Rhonda> geser: Oh, right. Always forget about that special-purpose channel. Sorry. %-/
[21:59]  * wgrant is concerned that it's "special-purpose", and not for a different product, as is reality.


[00:36] <newbie23> maff: not yet but I am really interested can you give me any hints how I could start in that field
[00:38] <fujin> lol
[05:43] <sommer> ScottK: I have an update to the Postfix section, is it cool if I email it to you for review?
[05:43] <somerville32> sommer, Is it a doc?
[05:43] <ScottK> sommer: Sure.
[05:43] <ScottK> Might be the weekend before I get to it.
[05:43] <sommer> somerville32: it's the generic/server/C/mail.xml file
[05:43] <sommer> ScottK: no problem
[05:44] <somerville32> sommer, Why not send it to ubuntu-doc/ubunt-server for review too?
[05:44] <sommer> somerville32: yep, I was planning to, but ScottK isn't on the doc ML :)
[05:44] <somerville32> Silly Scott
[05:45] <sommer> it's pretty big... covers parts of every section of the mail chapter
[05:45] <ScottK> Not at all.  I'm uninterested and unqualified to deal with virtually all docs.  For the ones I am, it's not worth the mail.
[05:45] <ScottK> sommer: As long as it's under 10MB, send it.
[05:45] <somerville32> ScottK, I agree.
[05:46] <sommer> ScottK: 44k
[05:46] <ScottK> That should be fine.
[05:46] <sommer> you'll probably need yelp to read it, I seem to remember you use Kubuntu?
[05:46] <ScottK> I do.
[05:46] <ScottK> Please mention that in the mail.
[05:46] <sommer> sure
[05:47] <sommer> somerville32: do you know a way to extract/render part of the guide into html?
[05:47] <somerville32> sommer, Yes.
[05:48] <somerville32> Why not just build the entire server guide and then just send him that page?
[05:48] <sommer> somerville32: I did that, but the make command didn't render my changes into html
[05:49] <sommer> does that make sense?
[05:49]  * somerville32 notes that his lights in his room are flicking.
[05:49] <sommer> or wait maybe I'm browsing to the wrong page
[05:50] <somerville32> Are you looking in build/ ?
[05:50]  * somerville32 just noticed that the xubuntu-docs don't build anymore.
[05:51] <sommer> somerville32: yep, build/index.html
[05:51] <sommer> gives me links to to serverguide
[05:52] <somerville32> But the page you are looking for isn't in there?
[05:52] <sommer> somerville32: it is, but not my changes
[05:54] <sommer> somerville32: not a big deal I'll just send an xml file
[05:54] <sommer> and a diff to the ml
[05:55] <somerville32> Are you doing make all ?
[05:55] <sommer> somerville32: yep make from the top level directory
[05:55] <somerville32> Try make web
[05:56] <sommer>  No rule to make target `web'
[05:56] <somerville32> sommer, Your makefile is different from the other doc branches
[05:56] <somerville32> sommer, Where is the bzr branch located?
[05:57] <sommer> somerville32: I'm using ubuntu-hardy... did the bzr branch about 30 min ago
[05:57] <sommer> after I realized the other bzr checkout I had was the vcs-import one... heh
[05:58] <somerville32> sommer, The server guide is a part of the ubuntu-hardy branch?
[05:58] <sommer> it's in generic/server right?
[05:58] <somerville32> I don't have ubuntu-hardy branched
[05:58] <sommer> I think it's part of all branches
[05:58] <somerville32> I have xubuntu-hardy branched
[05:58] <somerville32> oh
[05:58] <somerville32> look at that
[05:59] <sommer> I think the make file isn't quite up to date... especially with all the moves into bzr and what not
[06:00] <sommer> somerville32: anyway, thanks for your help... I'm going to send those emails and call it a night
[06:00] <somerville32> k, night