[01:06] <jussi> bah, riddell not here
[01:07] <jussi> anyway, when he gets back, I need to inform him that yes, I am running i386
[04:00] <valorie> jussi: interesting, so you encountered the identical problem in 386 that I had with 64
[06:19] <soee> good morning
[06:35] <apachelogger> valorie, sgclark: no one worked on neon since May
[06:35] <apachelogger> and for neon that is a good thing because it means the way it is designed worked out perfectly
[06:36] <valorie> so why were we recommending people use it?
[06:36] <valorie> when problems were reported, the response was - not supported
[06:36] <apachelogger> there were no problems
[06:37] <apachelogger> everything I got told was fallout from the design decisions
[06:37] <apachelogger> such as the conflict you have
[06:37] <valorie> had
[06:37] <valorie> I've purged it
[06:44] <valorie> anyway, nbd
[06:44] <valorie> it's ending anyway
[06:44] <valorie> I'd rather see work go into improving our processes for the future
[06:50] <apachelogger> sgclark: I think 1713db3e3fa554d479584975908e7f2b807a9ab6 in khelpcenter is another variant of the mildly wrong version bumps
[06:50] <apachelogger> -Breaks: khelpcenter-data (<< 4:5.0.0-0ubuntu1~ubuntu14.10~ppa2)
[06:50] <apachelogger> -Replaces: khelpcenter4, khelpcenter-data (<< 4:5.0.0-0ubuntu1~ubuntu14.10~ppa2)
[06:50] <apachelogger> +Breaks: khelpcenter-data (<< 4:5.2.0-0ubuntu1~ubuntu14.10~ppa2)
[06:50] <apachelogger> +Replaces: khelpcenter4, khelpcenter-data (<< 4:5.2.0-0ubuntu1~ubuntu14.10~ppa2)
[06:50] <apachelogger> going to fix that
[07:52] <Riddell> hola
[07:52] <valorie> hola
[07:52] <valorie> Riddell:
[07:53] <valorie> [18:06] <jussi> bah, riddell not here
[07:53] <valorie> [18:07] <jussi> anyway, when he gets back, I need to inform him that yes, I am running i386
[07:57] <Riddell> well at least that's consistent, i386 image did weird things for me
[07:57] <Riddell> and I have zero idea why :(
[07:57] <soee> Riddell: there was a guy yesterday who said he backported nm or something for trusty, i said to catch you or other develoepr here today
[07:57] <soee> so please try to answer him when he asked anything :)
[07:58] <soee> *ask
[07:58] <valorie> jussi got the same problems I did, in 64
[08:04] <Riddell> well I'm making final 5.1 tars today for Plasma and we can but hope those solve some of the issues
[08:04] <valorie> excellent
[08:04] <valorie> I look forward to some progress
[08:54] <sgclark> morning
[09:00] <Riddell> hi sgclark!
[09:00] <Riddell> thanks for getting up at such an anti social hour
[09:00] <sgclark> :)
[09:01] <Riddell> with any luck kio will finally get getting through into release https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kio/5.3.0-0ubuntu1/+build/6440886
[09:01] <sgclark> yay
[09:02] <sgclark> so no one is maintaining neon?
[09:02] <Riddell> I don't think so
[09:02] <valorie> since may, apachelogger said
[09:02] <Riddell> I wonder if we should be updating any web pages that mention it
[09:03] <valorie> it isn't the future, so fine
[09:03] <valorie> but we shouldn't be recommending it
[09:03] <sgclark> ahh valorie, yeah was going to point out your kio kio-extras breakage on it
[09:03] <apachelogger> no
[09:03] <valorie> and the chan topic should be changed
[09:03] <apachelogger> I said no one worked on it since May
[09:03] <valorie> sorry, apachelogger, to have misquoted
[09:04] <valorie> an hour ago in #project-neon: "
[09:04] <valorie> [01:33] <mokush> any idea about the project-neon5-kio and project-neon5-kio-extras error in the latest packages?
[09:04] <valorie> [01:35] <mokush> I'm getting 'trying to overwrite '/opt/project-neon5/bin/ktrash5', which is also in package project-neon5-kio' from project-neon5-kio-extras
[09:07] <apachelogger> "Secondly you need to manually dpkg -i --force-overwrite the kio package due to a file transition that neon by design won't handle for you."
[09:07] <lordievader> Good morning.
[09:08] <sgclark> morning
[09:08] <valorie> I will quote that in the channel when next it arises
[09:27] <Riddell> sgclark: did you get a chance to look at kopete skype foo?
[09:27] <Riddell> we removed those icons historically due to trademark but we fixed it upstream (I think) and not they disappear when we merge with debian but they shouldn't
[09:27] <sgclark> Riddell: woops got distracted studying, on it now
[09:28] <Riddell> oh don't let me distract you from studying!
[09:28] <sgclark> hehe, it shouldn't take long to fix that
[09:46] <Riddell> famous last words...
[10:03] <Blizzz> oh, btw, did you hear The Hobbit animations were done on KDE? http://www.themukt.com/2014/10/07/kde-plasma-hobbit-movies/
[10:04] <sgclark> yes, very cool!
[10:05] <Riddell> on kubuntu no less :)
[10:08] <Riddell> that deserves an article on wire.kubuntu.org
[10:08]  * Riddell looks around for willing volunteers
[10:30]  * Riddell publishes http://wire.kubuntu.org/?p=186
[10:33] <apachelogger> Riddell: s/Hobitt/Hobbit
[10:37] <Riddell> well spotted
[10:38] <Riddell> "[ubuntu/utopic] kio 5.3.0-0ubuntu1 (Accepted)" hoorah!
[11:07] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[11:09] <sgclark> hiyas
[12:06] <sgclark> Riddell: I am quite confused, I build kopete and find that there is nothing in list missing and not-installed does not contain any sort of skype icons. I check the install directories and skype icons are there, so I install kopete and skype has icons.. What exactly am I doing here again?
[12:08] <Riddell> sgclark: ah so maybe there is no problem
[12:08] <Riddell> "Kopete 4.14: Missing icons & cryptography plugin" by Pali said In package kopete 4.14 from kubuntu-ppa/backports is again
[12:08] <Riddell> missing skype protocols icons and cryptography plugin.
[12:09] <Riddell> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/182618524/buildlog_ubuntu-trusty-amd64.kopete_4:4.14.0-0ubuntu1~ubuntu14.04~ppa3_UPLOADING.txt.gz
[12:09] <Riddell> so maybe it's fixed in 4.14.1
[12:09] <Riddell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2014-September/008778.html
[12:09] <Riddell> also check Cryptography plugin files:
[12:09] <sgclark> ahh well, cryptography is correct, it is not enabled, will bring in kdepimlibs, want me to do that?
[12:10] <Riddell> yeah I think so
[12:10] <sgclark> xmms is also optioanl not enabled
[12:10] <Riddell> oh ignore that
[12:10] <sgclark> k
[12:10] <Riddell> xmms is very obsolete
[12:50] <Riddell> hi ximion, you know about appstream for ubuntu?
[12:52] <ximion> Riddell: the tool generating your archive files (Soyuz?) would need to produce DEP-11 data
[12:53] <ximion> see https://wiki.debian.org/DEP-11#Example_of_Components.yml
[12:53] <ximion> but I need to update that page, it contains outdated information
[12:53] <ximion> what currently matters is the DEP-1 validator: https://github.com/ximion/appstream/blob/master/contrib/dep11/dep11-validate.py
[12:54] <ximion> there was a SoC project at Debian to implement DEP-11 in dak, unfortunately it's far from being merge-ready, and I am currently ficing it up
[12:54] <ximion> won't be ready for Jessie, unfortunately :-/
[12:55] <Riddell> ximion: where does the data come from currently?  I get output if I run   appstream-index search umbrello
[13:01] <ximion> Riddell: libappstream is parsing the AppInstall data
[13:02] <ximion> it's very poor data, but better than having no data at all
[13:02] <ximion> (also, the whole point of libas is to abstract this stuff, so apps don't have to care about where data is coming from)
[13:04] <Riddell> ximion: ah it's using the files in app-install-data ?
[13:04] <Riddell> ximion: why do you say that's very poor?  it's updated each cycle surely
[13:04] <ximion> if there are some, the yes
[13:05] <ximion> see https://github.com/ximion/appstream/blob/master/src/data-providers/ubuntu-appinstall.c
[13:05] <ximion> not super-advanced, but okay-ish
[13:06] <ximion> it won't find the icons that way though, these have to be in $prefix/app-info/icons/$origin/64x64
[13:22] <Riddell> apachelogger: no kubotu?
[13:22] <apachelogger> mh
[13:24] <Riddell> plasma 5.1! http://starsky.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/plasma-5.1.0/
[13:28] <soee> oh no
[13:28] <soee> it needs packaging now right ?
[13:28] <Riddell> yep
[13:29] <sgclark> woot
[13:29] <soee> as always - i do nothing about packaging but im ready to test as soon as packages are done :)
[13:29] <soee> *know
[13:30] <shadeslayer> good thing we have CP
[13:31] <shadeslayer> and we know all of the shit builds
[13:31] <shadeslayer> ;)
[13:32] <soee> sgclark: i contacted my friend - designer and i try to convince him to help with teh promotional page i mentioned yesterday
[13:32] <sgclark> cool
[13:34] <shadeslayer> soee: might also be worth pointing him at the VDG ;)
[13:35] <shadeslayer> soee: https://vdesign.kde.org/
[13:36] <soee> yeah :)
[14:02] <sgclark> Help! missing symbols http://paste.ubuntu.com/8526984/
[14:04]  * Riddell hears the missing symbols siren blasting away
[14:04] <Riddell> sgclark: presumably this version has been compiled before?
[14:04] <sgclark> yeah it is kopete 4.14.1
[14:05] <sgclark> seems missed, there was no lintian error, I just noticed sybols stuff go by on screen
[14:06] <sgclark> and it is on my study list, so I need to learn proper action here
[14:07] <sgclark> aside from screaming for help
[14:07] <Riddell> well it's the same source right?
[14:08] <Riddell> you've not added or removed any patches?
[14:08] <sgclark> negative
[14:08] <Riddell> so I expect it's just gcc changes
[14:08] <sgclark> I only added kleo support in control file
[14:08] <Riddell> it says "optional=gccinternal" which tells me it is only gcc foo and we don't need to worry
[14:08] <Riddell> although that's just an educated guess
[14:09] <sgclark> hmm I am not confident enough to make educated guesses, so lets say you all are asleep, what would be my next move?
[14:10] <Riddell> you'd look at the source code to see what had changed between this package and the previous package upload
[14:10] <Riddell> and in this case nothing has changed so I'd just remove them
[14:11] <sgclark> ok, and I do recall a gcc upgrade, so I will accept your educated guess, thanks
[14:14]  * Riddell turns off them missing symbols siren
[14:14] <sgclark> lol
[14:43] <Riddell> http://qa.kubuntu.co.uk/plasma-status/build_status_5.1.0_utopic.html ta da
[14:49]  * genii celebrates with a fresh coffee
[14:49] <Riddell> sgclark: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/
[14:49] <Riddell> shadeslayer: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/
[14:49] <Riddell> sorry wrong tab
[14:49] <sgclark> whew
[14:50] <Riddell> set(SESSION_COMMAND             "${DATA_INSTALL_DIR}/scripts/Xsession"              CACHE PATH      "Script to execute when starting the desktop session")
[14:50] <Riddell> shadeslayer: wrong dir there ↑
[14:51] <sgclark> Riddell: kopete pending in my ppa, you are hogging the que :) I have to leave for 1 hour, but will help with 5.1.0 when I get back
[14:51] <sgclark> kopete is also in bzr
[14:51] <Riddell> great
[15:15] <Riddell> kfunk: ping
[15:15] <Riddell> kfunk: word on the streets is you have a fix for bug 1378771
[15:16] <Riddell> kfunk: how safe do you think it is to add to our packages? https://github.com/sddm/sddm/pull/276
[15:17] <_Groo_> Riddell: ping
[15:18] <_Groo_> Riddell: i backported plasma-widget-networkmanagement, plasma-nm and libnetworkmanagerqt-dev from utopic
[15:18] <_Groo_> Riddell: is it too late to review if for trusty?
[15:19] <Riddell> _Groo_: um, yes, trusty was released 6 months ago
[15:19] <Riddell> what are you wanting to achieve?
[15:20] <_Groo_> Riddell: nothing, i did it for my personal use, since its done, i thought it might be useful for the general population
[15:21] <_Groo_> Riddell: it fixes bugs and adds an improved interface for the connections
[15:21] <_Groo_> Riddell: thats pretty much it, it only changes one lib and its pretty safe to upgrade
[15:21] <Riddell> _Groo_: thow it in your PPA I don't think we have the energy to test it for general use
[15:21] <_Groo_> Riddell: okok
[15:23] <Riddell> sgclark: khtml needs to compile in the archive then kio-extras will compile and this nasty overlap problem will go away
[15:32] <jmux> Is there a tool in KDE 4 to generate / manage printer profiles? Seems the GUI for this CUPS feature was dropped in KDE4.
[15:34] <jmux> Actually the KDE4 printer dialog list the profiles as printers, if they exist, but I couldn't find a way to create them.
[15:36] <jmux> Otherwise we'll probably implement our own tool to manage printer, as a lot of people seem to use this feature, which I've never heard of before today.
[15:38] <Riddell> jmux: yeah print-manager does that
[15:38] <Riddell> it's a kcontrol4 module in system settings
[15:39] <Riddell> there's also some code to magically set up printers when you plug them in but that needs lots of gnome deps so we don't ship it
[15:39] <Riddell> dantti is the upstream if you need help
[15:41] <jmux> Riddell: Yeah - I know, but this just manages the printers. I failed to find a way to create a profile and so did the user.
[15:42] <jmux> So normally the users changes the settings for a print job and these are written to .cups/lpoptions as "Dest printerX collate=false ..."
[15:43] <Riddell> I don't think I know what a printer profile is in that case
[15:43] <jmux> Now the local cups options API has a profile feature, where you can save a set of settings as a printer profile
[15:43] <jmux> This generates a 2nd entry in the .cups/lpoptions file as "Dest printerX /Test collate=true ..."
[15:44] <jmux> And the printer dialog actually displays both. In KDE3 you could create a profile saving the current settings and this seems to be gone in KDE4.
[15:47] <jmux> I've never heard of this feature today, but I guess for many people here, which produce a lot of document with various settings, the feature was very convenient.
[15:48] <Riddell> hmm I guess it was part of kprinter stuff which disappeared from kde4 because nobody maintained it
[15:49] <Riddell> so yeah I guess you'll need to write some code
[15:49] <Riddell> but do try and do it upstream if you can, always pays off in the end
[15:55] <Riddell> yay khtml in
[15:56] <Riddell> hmm, what to do with 4.14.2 ?
[15:56] <Riddell> I think it's one for ppa and then updates
[15:56] <Riddell> kubotu: newversion kde4libs 4.14.2
[15:57] <Riddell> kubotu: newversion digikam 4.4.0
[15:57] <kubotu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1379409
[15:57] <kubotu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1379410
[15:59] <Riddell> kitterma: reallly -> really? http://skitterman.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/thanks-canonical-reallly/
[16:02] <Riddell> sgclark: what text editor do you use that puts a blank space at the end of every line?  make my emacs look all red
[16:19] <sgclark> Riddell: back sorry. that would be kate
[16:21] <Riddell> sgclark: groovy, I'm about to wander off, looks like plasma 5.1 is doing good just a few bits to tidy up
[16:21] <sgclark> ok, what is that about 4.14.2, is that one a script can run or just a few packages?
[16:22] <Riddell> yeah go for it
[16:22] <sgclark> ok
[16:22] <Riddell> kubuntu-initial-upload
[16:22] <sgclark> yep
[16:22] <sgclark> done it a few times :) ninjas?
[16:22] <Riddell> hopefully my changes for git in plasma/frameworks mean it'll still work with bzr for kde sc
[16:22] <Riddell> yep ninjas it is
[16:22] <sgclark> k
[16:22] <Riddell> ok I'm out, ping me on google hangouts of something if you need me
[16:23] <sgclark> ok, have a good day :)
[16:23] <Riddell> I've set kf5 retry script to run in 60 minutes and 120 minutes but you may need to get someone with archive privilages to poke the last few in http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html
[16:24] <sgclark> ok
[16:27] <soee> uh: dpkg: error processing archive /var/cache/apt/archives/kio_5.3.0-0ubuntu1_amd64.deb (--unpack):
[16:27] <sgclark> pretty sure too much building right now to attempt any sort of upgrade
[16:27] <soee> trying to overwrite  "/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/qt5/plugins/kcm_trash.so", that exists also in package kio-extras 4:5.0.95-0ubuntu1~ubuntu14.10~ppa6
[16:28] <soee> ah ok :)
[16:34]  * sgclark sees no sign of 4.14.2 on the depot...
[23:54] <ScottK> Riddell: It's possible there were some sarcasm tags left out of the post.  I figured they could be inferred.


[08:54] <victorp> ogra_, ping
[08:54] <ogra_> victorp, yo
[08:54] <victorp> ogra_, quick one what is the ppa to get the phablet screen shot script working in trusty?
[08:56] <ogra_> victorp, phablet-tools from phablet-team ... the fix landed last night, not sure if the PPAs have been updated yet
[08:56] <ogra_> bug 1327139 has a link to a branch with the fix, you can easily hack it in manually if the PPA doesnt have the new packages yet
[08:56] <victorp> ogra_, oh, might be a different fix to what I was thinking :)
[08:57] <victorp> I should set up the ppa anyway :)
[08:57] <ogra_> yeah, unless you use utopic ;)
[10:14] <thewisenerd> Hi, wanted to know if I could multiply a variable with a floating point number in the kernel?
[11:03] <rahul_> Hii all
[11:04] <rahul_>  i am try to install ffmpeg over ubuntu 14.041 on beagle bone
[11:04] <rahul_> but getting error
[11:10] <rahul_> any one here
[11:10] <rahul_> http://bpaste.net/show/PHQe2fzvhn98z3lEhRNo/    these errors i am getting


[00:06] <pero> is there any reason why i wouldnt want to remove the src repos?
[00:09] <ikonia> pero: for the same reasons you where told in #ubuntu
[00:10] <pero> gee thanks
[01:44] <dougl> So plymouth is not supposed to work yet?/
[05:18] <pero> is there a firefox nightly ppa for trusty?
[12:39] <BluesKaj> 'Morning all
[17:45] <Hutch> Hi
[20:07] <rrva> hi!. whats the best desktop to use for retina displays
[20:08] <rrva> unity, xfce, gnome 3.10+ ?
[20:42] <glitsj16> rrva: ubuntu still isn't ready to deal with retina imho, at least not at full resolution .. there's talk of changing that but nothing solid yet as far as i know
[20:43] <glitsj16> rrva: this is generally the case for many if not all linux distros i believe, not exclusive to ubuntu
[20:44] <glitsj16> rrva: so for now i think the best you can do is drop down to 1920 x 1200 (16:10) works well for me. It's not as crisp but certainly livable....
[22:10] <alfonsojon> Will 14.04 have a way to remove smart scopes entirely?
[22:10] <alfonsojon> i.e. apt-get remove unity-smart-scopes
[22:11] <k1l> you can disable the online searches in the privacy settings right now
[22:11] <alfonsojon> I know, but my local searches are still slower than in 12.10 and 12.04
[22:11] <alfonsojon> I want to remove it /entirely/
[22:11] <alfonsojon> i.e. the package for it
[22:12] <alfonsojon> I currently have it disabled in privacy, but it still feels slower than usual.
[22:13] <k1l> see http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=saucy&section=all&arch=any&keywords=unity-scope&searchon=names
[22:15] <Daekdroom> alfonsojon, it's because now scopes are loaded as they are needed.
[22:15] <Daekdroom> The same thing happens in 13.10
[22:16] <alfonsojon> Daekdroom: I know, I don't like 13.10's behaviour
[22:16] <alfonsojon> What would be neat is a unity-scope-online metapackage
[22:16] <k1l> you can disable single scopes, too
[22:16] <alfonsojon> I'm aware, but if I ever want to put Ubuntu in a school environment, that won't be fun
[22:16] <Daekdroom> I don't, either. Having to wait 15 seconds so I can have an app search result is not the best feature.
[22:17] <alfonsojon> My school is trying to get away from XP and I really can't suggest any Ubuntu except 12.04
[22:17] <alfonsojon> But Unity is very easy to use otherwise.
[22:17] <bekks> alfonsojon: Then suggest 12.04, which is supported until 2017.
[22:17] <alfonsojon> I know
[22:17] <alfonsojon> Thing is, what happens when 2017 is here?
[22:17] <bekks> Anything else rather an LTS would be - no good choice for large deployments.
[22:17] <alfonsojon> That's not my point, we're not actually on Ubuntu yet
[22:18] <bekks> alfonsojon: In 2017, you have to update to 14.04 or 16.04
[22:18] <alfonsojon> I mean if 14.04 comes out, we can't use it
[22:18] <alfonsojon> The kids will play with the scopes
[22:18] <bekks> Then configure/disable/uninstall the scopes. Where is the problem with that?
[22:18] <alfonsojon> There's a ton of scopes.
[22:19] <bekks> And?
[22:19] <alfonsojon> Nevermind, it's fine I guess
[22:19] <bekks> :)


[05:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> if i want to contribute documentation to ubuntu-server, should i ask about it here or #ubuntu-doc?
[05:48] <sommer> Kamping_Kaiser: I'd do both just to make sure
[05:48] <Kamping_Kaiser> sommer, mm ok.
[05:50] <sommer> Kamping_Kaiser: if you already have something ready you could always submit it to the doc ML
[05:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> ok, well i'm expecting to be doing up some doco for the place i'm working for, and i was wondering who/how to try and simply expand what the server team already have
[05:52] <Kamping_Kaiser> *who/how to ask,
[05:54] <somerville32> Kamping_Kaiser, I think a lot of it is on the wiki
[05:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> so i need to check whats on the wiki and thats a good start to answering the question?
[06:04] <somerville32> Yup :)
[06:05] <Kamping_Kaiser> i'll have to look :)
[06:51] <osmosis_> everything looks proper, but my /var/www/munin directory is empty. Any ideas ?
[10:27] <joerlend> something is using my harddisk alot. How can I find out what process it is?
[13:34] <dworkin> what's the worst case scenario if i install egroupware 1.4 from debian-experimental repositories? (on gutsy)
[13:36] <Kamping_Kaiser> you get to reinstall because dependancys break and files get overwritten?
[13:36] <dworkin> hmm :(
[13:37] <Kamping_Kaiser> why do you want it from debian-experimental?
[13:38] <dworkin> because i can't get it from anywhere else. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/egroupware/+bug/151492
[13:38] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 151492 in egroupware "new upstream version 1.4.002" [Undecided,New]
[13:39] <Kamping_Kaiser> why do you need 1.4 not <whatevers shipped>?
[13:41] <dworkin> Kamping_Kaiser: 1.2 which is included in gutsy doesn't like php5, postgresql, has bugs, etc. 1.4 solves all that + imap client in it finally works.
[13:41] <Kamping_Kaiser> dworkin, download a tarball from egroupwares website?
[13:42] <dworkin> Kamping_Kaiser: i'd install it manually if it were up to me, but i'm trying to make it easily maintainable so it needs to be installed from packages
[13:42] <dworkin> it looks i've no other choice but do it manually though
[13:43] <Kamping_Kaiser> dworkin, file for a backport. not sure you'll have much luck though
[13:46] <dworkin> Kamping_Kaiser: comforting...
[13:46] <Kamping_Kaiser> sorry :(
[13:46] <Kamping_Kaiser> using experimental is as close to killing a box as i know about
[19:54] <ivoks> soren: here?
[20:32] <Centaur5> Is there a way to fix an LTSP client that won't load X or login via console?  It has an intel chipset.


[22:33] <[Michelangelo]> Hi all, I need some help to start with ubuntu
[22:33] <[Michelangelo]> I'm using the wubi installation
[22:34] <Myrtti> hi, the support channel is #ubuntu
[22:34] <[Michelangelo]> thx


 I taught myself several languages including python and I can happily hack in any one of them. And because of this idiotic stigma that "if you didn't study computers, you must thusly not be good at computers", the best job I can get is probably something that pays minimum wage. My only other out is to start
[15:46] <Trixar_za> my own business, but that requires money, which loops back to the prior problem.
[15:47] <Kilos> yip papers are important
[15:50] <Kilos> Trixar_za: try do some online courses just to get papers
[15:51] <Trixar_za> Do you know how we treated people with an MCSE that started working at a company I was working at? Like they knew less than a normal person, which is pretty accurate considering they do know something, but it's just in all the wrong directions. Prior education does that. It teaches you mental habits with a stubborness that doesn't allow you to learn other ways to do things - this can be a handicap.
[15:51] <Trixar_za> When you teach it to yourself however, you develop flexibility with it and you're always willing to learn new ways of doing things.
[15:51] <Trixar_za> Yet again - money
[15:52] <Kilos> i see in our list one guy was offering to help with the LPI exams for about R1200 I think
[15:52] <Kilos> yes experience is super important but papers are what gets the job
[15:53] <Kilos> write some usefull software and sell it man
[15:53] <Trixar_za> If I can get an interview, I can get a job 9 times out of 10
[15:53] <Trixar_za> The trouble is, lack of papers doesn't afford me that chance
[15:53] <Trixar_za> And I need a job to get money to get said papers
[15:53] <Kilos> your cv is what they look at before you even get to interview stage
[15:53] <Trixar_za> it's a vicious circle
[15:54] <Kilos> yeah the poor will get poorer
[15:54] <Trixar_za> No - they skim over your CV and check for further education
[15:54] <Trixar_za> no further education and they skip your CV
[15:54] <Trixar_za> It's a very fast way to get through a lot of CVs
[15:55] <Kilos> ya things like LPI and that thing squirm did
[15:55] <Kilos> redhat stuff
[15:56] <Trixar_za> redhat certification
[15:56] <Kilos> ya
[15:56] <Trixar_za> But it's pretty expensive
[15:57] <Trixar_za> like ~18k
[15:57] <Kilos> thats the prob but thats what they wanna see before you even get to interview
[15:57] <Trixar_za> and I think that's excluding the exam
[15:57] <Kilos> ouch
[15:57] <Trixar_za> Actually, I'm thinking of taking the minimum wage type job
[15:58] <Trixar_za> Saving up and starting my own business. I have a weird feel for business that some of my friends have noticed - so they come to me with their business problems
[15:58] <Kilos> its a living but thats it
[15:58] <Trixar_za> It's like asking the single dude for advice on dating
[15:58] <Kilos> lol
[15:59] <Kilos> like ian is struggling to get ahead with 4.5k a month and doing clock machines and scanners all over the place
[16:00] <Trixar_za> If I grow big enough, I'll start acquiring some of the businesses that didn't even give me a chance - or at least steal away their already trained employees. Have them die slow deaths
[16:00] <Kilos> all the software and installs etc
[16:00] <Kilos> hehe
[16:00] <Kilos> good luck
[16:00] <Kilos> getting started is the hard part
[16:01] <Trixar_za> True, but I already have a product that I'm working on that could be interesting
[16:01] <Trixar_za> And it will definitely prove my skill with Linux
[16:01] <Kilos> is it sellable?
[16:02] <Kilos> saleable
[16:02] <Kilos> that thing
[16:02] <Kilos> you need something to bring in an income
[16:02] <Kilos> protecting it is the prob though
[16:02] <Trixar_za> Yes
[16:02] <Kilos> peeps steal like mad
[16:03] <Trixar_za> Actually, it will be similar to RedHat, but only for lower-end machines
[16:03] <Kilos> next thing china is offering it at half your price
[16:03] <Kilos> good luck
[16:04] <Trixar_za> Thanks. There is a market in tablets and thin clients. I'm thinking of trying to worm my way into there. And even if it fails, I can still release it as open source and contributed in some way
[16:05] <Trixar_za> China is the reason Bitcoins exchange rates are so insanely high
[16:08] <Kilos> nothing is private or safe anymore
[16:08] <Kilos> i think even patents dont help
[16:08] <Kilos> they steal it before you even get a patent
[16:09] <Trixar_za> Don't need patents for something you're going to release (partially) as open source anyway.
[16:09] <Kilos> n but then you dont get an income from it either
[16:10] <Trixar_za> That's why Redhat does so well. It releases it's parts as open source (fedora core), but it creates packages tailored to businesses
[16:10] <Kilos> opensource is great but not for someone that needs money
[16:10] <Trixar_za> You can use fedora to recreate it, but it will take time. You'll also have to train your employees to use it. Redhat provides that training in the package.
[16:10] <Kilos> where is the income from linux stuff
[16:11] <Trixar_za> Canonical is doing something similar too
[16:11] <Kilos> from the after sales side or support
[16:11] <Trixar_za> Yes
[16:11] <Trixar_za> and training
[16:11] <Kilos> or after install support etc
[16:11] <Trixar_za> And initial setups and maintaince
[16:12] <Kilos> but where is the setups etc needed for ubuntu
[16:13] <Kilos> anyone can install it easy
[16:14] <Trixar_za> Yes, but you need to train people on how to use it
[16:14] <Kilos> whew
[16:15] <Trixar_za> also Canonical can tailor (as in remix) Ubuntu with the software needed for the company, including several proprietary software packages that the company owns
[16:15] <Trixar_za> making installing a new copy of Ubuntu on the machines easier
[16:15] <Kilos> oh
[16:17] <Kilos> like the dvd that remastersys makes
[16:20] <Trixar_za> Yeah, only tailored for the company's needs
[16:21] <Trixar_za> There is a market there, but few South African companies reallly uses it
[16:21] <Trixar_za> Mostly because of how prominent Windows is
[16:23] <Trixar_za> What I really want to do is get Linux into our stock exchange
[16:23] <Trixar_za> That's where Windows servers are failing badly
[16:23] <Kilos> that would be a coup
[16:23] <Trixar_za> Yeah
[16:24] <Trixar_za> New York Stock Exchange is already doing it, so we have that as an example
[16:24] <Kilos> ah
[16:24] <Trixar_za> and I've seen how we manage that Windows servers that runs our Stock Exchange
[16:24] <Trixar_za> They need somebody to constantly monitor it and restart the server everytime it crashes
[16:25] <Kilos> eish
[16:25] <Trixar_za> Which is a lot - that's about 2 minutes of lost business
[16:25] <Trixar_za> each time*
[16:25] <Trixar_za> Gets longer with heavier loads
[16:26] <Kilos> thats not good
[16:26] <Kilos> what causes the crashes
[16:27] <Trixar_za> Mostly software and user error
[16:28] <Kilos> ouch
[16:29] <Trixar_za> It's probably a little better now, but it's still too much for a Windows server to handle in my opinion
[16:29] <Kilos> ohi superfly wb
[16:30] <superfly> hi and bye, supper time!
[16:30] <Kilos> enjoy
[18:34] <Kilos> inetpro: maybe my rain dance worked
[18:34] <Kilos> sounds like its coming this way
[18:34] <inetpro> you have rain?
[18:34] <Kilos> boom booms only so far
[18:34] <inetpro> hmm... haven't heard anythin here yet
[18:35] <Kilos> looks like its at kalefong now
[18:36] <Kilos> do you know a quck way tochange task bar colours
[18:36] <Kilos> i sukkel with the info online
[18:37] <Kilos> like my clock is white with slightly offwhite background
[18:38]  * inetpro uses a dark Oxygen Desktop Theme
[18:39] <Kilos> i also have oxygen for everything in the settings i can find
[18:39] <Kilos> like running apps show white text on black
[18:39] <Kilos> but clock white on white
[18:39] <Kilos> grrr
[18:39] <inetpro> and for Window Decorations I choose Plastik
[18:40] <Kilos> oh ok ill try that
[18:40] <inetpro> but I don't think that would change the task bar
[18:44] <Kilos> nothing chaqnged
[18:44] <Kilos> changed either
[18:45] <Kilos> none of the how tos explain properly
[18:45] <Kilos> oh i upghraded kde hey
[18:45] <Kilos> sjoe
[18:45] <Kilos> i think its kde 4.10 or something
[18:48] <inetpro> ok I still use 4.8.5
[18:48] <inetpro> with 12.04.3 LTS
[18:49] <Kilos> ya 12.04.3 but with upgraded kde thing
[18:49] <Kilos> had to do lots of setting up again
[18:49] <Kilos> but i think it lekker
[18:49] <inetpro> ai!
[18:50] <Kilos> what ai!
[18:50] <inetpro> @tWeatherSA: ALERT: Intense storms now over parts of the East & West Rand as well as parts of #Johannesburg. T-storm also approaching #Pretoria.
[18:50] <Kilos> i used up some night surfer data man
[18:50] <inetpro> ok
[18:50] <Kilos> near 300m
[18:51] <Kilos> where you get that alert from?
[18:51] <inetpro> https://twitter.com/tWeatherSA/status/413377805456801792
[18:52] <Kilos> ai! twit place
[18:52]  * inetpro can hear a breeze talking and getting louder outside
[18:54] <Kilos> lol
[19:00] <Kilos> looking here now
[19:00] <Kilos> http://askubuntu.com/questions/279263/change-font-color-of-inactive-apps-on-kde-taskbar
[19:00] <Kilos> i dunno what inactive apps are
[19:04] <Kilos> Unfortunately, unlike kde, where most of the colors are set specifically, with plasma one has to choose a theme --
[19:04]  * Kilos investigates further


[06:53] <oSoMoN> the buildlog for https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-security/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+build/20408925 says the build was successful, yet the build is marked as failed. Is this a known bug, and is there a way to retrieve the build artifacts instead of retrying the build?
[06:53] <oSoMoN> (good morning by the way)
[06:57] <wgrant> oSoMoN: It must have failed to fetch the results for some reason. There's no way to recover the old artifacts, so you'll need to retry the build.
[07:13] <oSoMoN> wgrant, ok, thanks
[10:56] <ral> cjwatson: Some of the launchpad builders have been cleaning for lots of hours. And new jobs don't seem to be being accepted. Would you mind taking a look?
[11:08] <cjwatson> ral: We're in the middle of maintenance - I'll look at it after that
[11:08] <cjwatson> (What you're reporting probably wasn't directly related to maintenance, but regardless, I need to wait until we're done with this move anyway)
[11:10] <ral> cjwatson: Thanks, and no rush I just thought you ought to know.
[11:13] <cjwatson> ral: What jobs aren't being accepted?
[11:14] <ral> Uploads to mosquitto-dev/mosquitto-ppa
[11:14] <cjwatson> ral: OK, that's the maintenance noted in the topic
[11:14] <cjwatson> ral: Unrelated to builders being stuck cleaning, but I've poked those now anyway
[11:15] <ral> Duh, ok, sorry typical not reading the topic.
[11:17] <cjwatson> (However, putting all builders on manual for a short while now while we make sure the new ppa.launchpad.net works)
[11:48] <ricotz> cjwatson, hi, is it expected uploading source packages to PPAs is not working currently?
[11:48] <cjwatson> ricotz: Please see the topic
[11:49] <cjwatson> Looking pretty good, we should be up again soonish, but better to be cautious
[11:49] <ricotz> I known it mentions publishing it disabled
[11:49] <ricotz> *is
[11:50] <cjwatson> Uploads too for part of the time
[11:50] <ricotz> I see, thanks, I will wait patiently :)
[11:52] <cjwatson> ricotz: Should work now
[11:52] <ricotz> cjwatson, thank you
[12:13] <cjwatson> Just dealing with a minor glitch relating to internal signing service connectivity, but publishing should be back up soon
[12:40] <cjwatson> Some ancillary jobs still down, but we're mostly back.
[15:46] <juliank> cjwatson: is git hosting down? fatal: unable to access<EMAIL_ADDRESS>The requested URL returned error: 500
[15:46] <juliank> from https://launchpadlibrarian.net/511424051/deity-apt-+git-apt.log
[15:47] <juliank> hmm yeah other repos seem inaccessible too
[15:49] <juliank> the answer seems to be yes
[15:49] <juliank> Did I miss an announcement?
[15:49] <tomwardill> it's mid upgrade atm, though I don't think outage is expected
[15:50]  * tomwardill looks
[16:04] <cjwatson> Using SSH will work.  But we're rolling back now
[16:04] <cjwatson> (OK, that's no help for code imports)
[17:02] <cjwatson> juliank: should be fixed (by rollback) now
[18:47] <sbeattie> Hi, is the staging.launchpad.net site supposed to be functional? It doesn't accept existing launchpad users, and, while registering a new user with the staging services appears to work, attmepting to login with it gives an LP oops from the staging site (e.g. OOPS-ee94455d3b2dbabcfc0e853842d21654)
[19:57] <cjwatson> sbeattie: staging login can be ... messy.  best file a support ticket, it may take some effort to disentangle your account
[19:57] <cjwatson> sbeattie: meanwhile for many purposes you can use qastaging instead, which uses production login
[21:34] <sbeattie> cj watson: I did end up going to qastaging instead which mostly worked until I tried to log out whereupon it timed out.
[21:35] <sbeattie> (I had created a test project with the wrong user, which is why I was trying to switch accounts.)


[02:58] <beuno> hello
[02:58] <beuno> it seems congrats are in order to somerville32
[02:59] <somerville32> lol
[02:59] <somerville32> For what?
[02:59] <beuno> CodySomerville (somerville32) is the new Co-Chief Editor for UWN
[02:59] <somerville32> Oh, haha
[02:59] <somerville32> Thanks
[02:59] <beuno> (althou I had the idea you where before)
[03:00] <beuno> how's UWN 26 coming along?
[03:01] <somerville32> lol
[03:01] <somerville32> I don't think much is done on it yet
[03:01] <somerville32> Feel free to start puttering away at it in the wiki :)
[03:01] <beuno> ;D
[03:01] <beuno> I probably will
[03:01] <beuno> I'm gonno see what's left for the UWN 25 spanish translation
[03:01] <beuno> what should I do with it once it's done?
[03:02] <rjian> wow somerville32 he new co-chief editor.. congrats ahihih
[03:02] <somerville32> Thanks :)
[03:02] <rjian> :)
[03:20] <beuno> somerville32: any idea what happened to the gobby server?
[03:21] <somerville32> See topic
[03:21] <somerville32> ;]
[03:21] <beuno> oh  ;(
[03:21] <beuno> I had the spanish docs on there
[04:54] <theCore> "gobby server will die on Dec 20th" - why?
[04:56] <somerville32> Because we felt like it! :D
[04:56] <somerville32> haha
[04:56] <somerville32> no
[04:56] <somerville32> Moving or something or another
[04:57] <theCore> hehe
[07:39] <poningru> re gobby: yeah sorry guys switching isps
[07:39] <poningru> wont be back up till jan 4th
[07:40] <poningru> working to get one setup down here
[07:42] <elkbuntu> someone was supposed to set up an alternative to swap things over to
[07:48] <poningru> yeah stupid verizon is giving me trouble with putting up a server


[01:35] <gary_poster> bac, fwiw, matt's card never got a review.  tomorrow.
[01:36] <gary_poster> I mean, didn't get a review other than mine
[06:51] <swebb> Is there a howto to bring up a juju-gui instance?  Can I just 'juju deploy juju-gui'?
[12:22] <bac> swebb: we are working on a charm that will allow you to do just that.  it's not quite ready yet.
[13:14] <gary_poster> teknico, in regards to title capitalization, a few things.  First, I don't want to talk about this topic. It is too trivial. :-) I think we can all agree that we should be consistent, at least.  Second, In American English the commonly preferred approach is title case, as your quote also showed. However, unbeknownst to me, apparently the sentence case is at least more common in British English, and we are technicall
[13:14] <gary_poster> y supposed to be writing that, despite not having any British people on our team, so that's a start on an argument.  The "sentence case is more appropriate for open source documentation" argument is not very compelling to me--I don't see any kind of correlation myself--but I recognize that not everyone shares my opinions.  Lastly, I'm not fond of dictating much of anything.  If I can't persuade, maybe I'm wrong.  If
[13:14] <gary_poster>  you would like to raise this with the team and get a consensus so we never have to talk about this again, that would be fine with me. :-)
[14:02] <teknico> gary_poster, we don't have to talk about it if you don't want to
[14:04] <gary_poster> teknico, let's talk about it on our call in an hour :-)
[14:05] <teknico> gary_poster, ok
[14:23]  * bradc is having issues
[14:33]  * teknico is back in a few minutes
[15:27] <bac> gary_poster: that was not me
[15:27] <gary_poster> ok bac
[15:28] <bac> this is me
[15:28] <gary_poster> :-) good
[15:29] <gary_poster> bac bcsaller benji frankban goodspud jovan2 Makyo teknico call in 1
[15:44]  * gary_poster restarts computer
[15:56] <gary_poster> bac I keep on meaning to tell you that the notes you made for yesterday's meeting with goodspud, hazmat, and greg rocked.  thank you.
[15:57] <goodspud> If you want to see Mark's vision... it's here... in the middle of the whiteboard.
[15:57] <goodspud> https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/file/d/0B1IM--9A1RkTX1hyOUQ5YUlzenc/edit
[15:57] <goodspud> interpret it how you want to
[15:57] <gary_poster> Things are IN THE CLOUD!
[15:58] <goodspud> Everything is in the could... except the stick figures
[15:58] <gary_poster> is that a cookie in the top right?
[15:58] <gary_poster> mm, chocolate chip
[15:58] <gary_poster> being cooked by demon fires beneath it
[15:58] <goodspud> It's a sea sponge
[15:58] <gary_poster> lol
[15:59] <goodspud> Believe it or not they are all different sorts of branches leading to collections of charms
[15:59] <goodspud> Launchpad related
[15:59] <gary_poster> I like the chocolate chip cookie interpretation better, myself, but I'm partial to chocolate chip cookies
[16:00] <goodspud> I'm with you on that
[16:00] <gary_poster> :-)
[16:00] <goodspud> My friend in Aus sends me some every so often... they are the most AMAZING
[16:00] <goodspud> She makes them herslef
[16:00] <goodspud> *herselft
[16:00] <gary_poster> heh
[16:01] <teknico> believe it or not, on Italian TV these days there's an ad
[16:01] <teknico> by a shitty hosting provider advertising www.cloud.it
[16:01] <gary_poster> My wife made began chocolate chip cookies this week.  except for the chocoloate chips--she had to have a bit of milk chocolate there.  but anyway, they were um, surprisingly awesome.  I'm not supposed to be surprised that the vegan recipes are awesome, right?
[16:02] <teknico> and it displays a stick figure throwing itself into a cloud :-)
[16:02] <gary_poster> ugh, s/made began/made vegan/
[16:02] <gary_poster> heh
[16:03] <goodspud> Probably awesome because of the oh so tasty non-vegan bit
[16:03] <goodspud> Hmmm... chocolate
[16:04] <goodspud> teknico, so they little video basically says, "life is too busy and complicated so it's probably best to go to heaven?"
[16:05] <teknico> goodspud, that may be the subliminal implication, I guess :-)
[16:05] <gary_poster> :-)
[16:05] <goodspud> :)
[16:06] <benji> I don't think it would be too hard to find vegan chocolate.
[16:07] <gary_poster> no, there is vegan chocolate
[16:08] <gary_poster> the chips we've found don't taste as good
[16:08] <gary_poster> there's a local chocolate place that makes chocolate direct from cocoa beans
[16:08] <gary_poster> they are vegan and really yummy
[16:08] <gary_poster> but don't make chips
[16:09] <gary_poster> (and if they did I suspect they would be prohibitively expensive)
[16:09]  * teknico is rebooting a couple more times, just for fun
[16:14] <benji> individually gold foil wrapped chocolate chips, delivered by unicorn
[16:26] <gary_poster> :-)
[16:33] <bac> gary_poster: re: the notes yesterday, i just set up the template and hazmat went nuts.  i did try to repackage it a bit to be more understandable
[16:33] <bac> i'm curious if mark's classification of "the future" includes kapils categories of "science fiction" and "fantasy"
[16:33] <bac> and then some, probably
[16:34] <gary_poster> bac, heh, cool. :-) sometimes getting the ball rolling is the hard part.  and it is understandable, so success there as well.
[16:34] <gary_poster> scifi/fantasy: yeah, I suspect you are right
[17:04] <frankban> gary_poster: the doc refers to the `tarball` make target, which does not exist, i guess it should be something like ``tarball: $(RELEASE_FILE)``. Also, `make release` seems to be now called `make dist`. I think this is a WIP.
[17:05] <gary_poster> bac, you have a card on the board in "Needs Specification" titled "staging deploy: add 'make clean' and 'appcache-force' to cronjob"
[17:05] <gary_poster> can we remove that, bac?
[17:05] <bac> gary_poster: yes.
[17:05] <gary_poster> done thanks bac
[17:06] <gary_poster> frankban, looks like doc was not updated.  State is as follows, afaik:
[17:06] <gary_poster> - doc should be updated to change "make release" to "make dist"
[17:07] <gary_poster> - Makyo's branch will hopefully re-add a "distfile" target, which will be equivalent to the "tarball" target.  Hopefully he will update the docs for that too.
[17:08] <gary_poster> If Makyo's branch has those changes, you could start from it as a precursor
[17:08] <Makyo> Ah. hm.  Can do!
[17:08] <Makyo> Almost ready to push, if not submit.
[17:08] <frankban> gary_poster: ack, cool.
[17:08] <gary_poster> Thanks Makyo :-)
[17:09] <gary_poster> frankban, I suppose you could make a release from trunk as is even without those changes, if everything else looks ok
[17:09] <gary_poster> you would only need the make distfile target when you get to that part f the charm
[17:10] <gary_poster> I bet it will be ready for you tomorrow morning in trunk
[17:11] <frankban> gary_poster: I agree, I was just following the steps in the docs, just to get used to it. Also, IIRC, launchpadlib si installed by default in all our OS targets, right?
[17:11] <gary_poster> frankban, pretty sure but not 100%.  A lot of Ubuntu relies on it
[17:12] <gary_poster> indirectly at least :-)
[17:19] <frankban> gary_poster: ok thanks
[17:35] <goodspud> OK, fess up... who broke the demo?
[17:35] <goodspud> https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/file/d/0B1IM--9A1RkTM2ZfS3RSalZQODQ/edit
[17:39] <goodspud> I have vays ov making you talk
[17:39] <goodspud> Actually, should I file this as a bug or should we not worry about it?
[17:39] <goodspud> ... for the time being anyway
[17:52] <bac> goodspud: that is hideous.  how did all of those arrows get in there?
[17:53] <goodspud> bac, :)  The evil red arrow monster
[17:53] <bac> goodspud: with your new found powers you just need to 'bzr pull' and 'bzr log  | more' and you can figure out the likely culprit
[17:54] <bac> goodspud: btw, i don't see the same thing.  it looks good from here.
[17:54] <goodspud> bac, I'm not used to these powers.
[17:55] <goodspud> bac, only happens when I resize the browser.
[17:55] <Makyo> With great power comes great responsibility, etc, etc.
[17:55] <goodspud> :)
[17:55] <bac> goodspud: oh, now that is good info
[17:55] <bac> goodspud: ok i can replicate the bottom.
[17:56] <bac> i don't see the artifact at the top of your screenshot, though
[17:56] <goodspud> bac, that's the background... the canvas isn't resizing
[17:57] <goodspud> I'll log it as a bug and then you can all fight over it. I'm not necessarily concerned about it at the moment but it's not pretty.
[18:07] <bac> benji, gary_poster: either of you used debug-hooks lately?
[18:07] <benji> bac: a little last week; but I couldn't remember half of it
[18:08] <bac> the charm has an install error.  i ssh via debug-hooks but when i manually try to run install i get an error from juju-log b/c the JUJU_SOCKET_AGENT isn't available
[18:09] <bac> it is as though the environment isn't there....but that's what debug-hooks *did* i thought, as opposed to just ssh-ing in
[18:10] <benji> that matches my understanding
[18:18] <gary_poster> bac, not exactly
[18:18] <gary_poster> wehn you have debug hooks on then you can look around
[18:18] <gary_poster> but when a hook is called by juju, it dumps you into the environment then
[18:19] <gary_poster> and you have all the expected variables
[18:20] <bac> gary_poster: but can you re-run the hook?  i
[18:20] <gary_poster> bcsaller, I wonder if the test you loosened actually was catching this regression or not
[18:20] <gary_poster> https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-gui/+bug/1090046
[18:20] <_mup_> Bug #1090046: Resizing the browser causes the GUI to break <regression> <juju-gui:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1090046 >
[18:21] <gary_poster> I'll add the card to the secondary story
[18:21] <gary_poster> bac, yes
[18:21] <gary_poster> looking
[18:21] <bac> gary_poster: that's when i see failures when the hook calls juju-log
[18:21] <gary_poster> bac juju resolved --retry
[18:21] <bac> gary_poster: that bug looks to be related to the charm store filter picker.  but i'm pretty sure browser resizing worked when i landed it
[18:22] <gary_poster> is that what you wanted?  that's what we used
[18:22] <bac> gary_poster: gah!  that's what i'm missing
[18:22] <gary_poster> cool
[18:22] <bac> so you do that before debug-hooks, right?
[18:22] <bac> or inside?
[18:22] <gary_poster> bac, before, on your local machine
[18:22] <bac> righto
[18:26] <bac> gary_poster: no difference.  :(
[18:27] <gary_poster> bac, it didn't retry and dump you into the hook in a separate session? weird.  supposed to, pretty sure.  hunting around...
[18:28] <bac> gary_poster: actually this page https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/write-charm.html says you do d-h and then from another shell resolved --retry
[18:28] <gary_poster> bac, right, on your host machine
[18:29] <gary_poster> ohm, sorry, I mislead
[18:29] <bac> np
[18:30] <bac> https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/hook-debugging.html should definitely mention resolved --retry
[18:30] <bac> and the dance
[18:58] <bac> Makyo: around?
[18:59] <bac> i'm seeing juju-gui charm failing on make due to app/assets/javascripts/d3.v2.min.js being missing again.  shouldn't that be fixed?
[19:00] <gary_poster> things have been changing in the Makefile bac, so it may be broken again :-/
[19:00] <gary_poster> bac, maybe see if teknico's branch fixes it, by chance?
[19:00] <gary_poster> getting...
[19:01] <gary_poster> bac lp:~teknico/juju-gui/improve-makefile any better?
[19:01] <gary_poster> or worse :-P
[19:02]  * gary_poster will be glad when we are done with Makefile
[19:02] <bac> gary_poster: i'll try it now
[19:02] <Makyo> Looking.  Sorry.  Not quite 100% :P
[19:02]  * gary_poster also sympathetic to benji's call for Makefile tests, even though he is worried about what those would look like
[19:03] <bac> Makyo: nm, i've got a lead.
[19:05] <Makyo> bac, okay.  make all in a lightweight checkout ran okay..
[19:06] <Makyo> But that was just local.
[19:06] <gary_poster> don't see why it should be diff :-/
[19:08] <bcsaller> gary_poster: just got back from grabbing lunch, the regression might have been caught by the test or caused by other changes in the refactor, I imagine a few minors will crop up and then again as we move things to modules
[19:08] <gary_poster> agreed bcsaller, no worries, just something to address
[19:09] <bac> one problem we have is none of our clean targets don't get rid of the links in app/assets/javascripts so initial builds look different from subsequent ones
[19:09] <bac> s/don't//
[19:09] <bac>  s/don't//
[19:10] <gary_poster> ah
[19:10] <gary_poster> yes
[19:10] <gary_poster> that should be fixed
[19:11] <gary_poster> mm
[19:12] <gary_poster> bac, if you develop a target for that in anger that you think would be reasonable, let me know.  I have an evil plan in that case: if teknico's branch helps for you, get your review of it, branch it, add your change, and land it.  I will be happy to do this evil if so desired.
[19:13] <bac> gary_poster: ok.  haven't yet gotten teknico's branch to try
[19:13] <gary_poster> bac, is that likely to happen, or should I go ahead and make a branch/card?
[19:13] <gary_poster> ok
[19:13] <gary_poster> I'll make a bug/card then
[19:29] <bac> gary_poster: where do we chat?
[20:08] <gary_poster> benji, *probably* not pertinent to the problem you are trying to debug, but just in case, https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-gui/+bug/1090046
[20:08] <_mup_> Bug #1090046: Resizing the browser causes the GUI to break <regression> <juju-gui:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1090046 >
[20:08] <gary_poster> IOW there might be a real problem that the pixely things are complaining about
[20:08]  * benji looks
[20:08] <gary_poster> I know I tried to write pixely tests about this
[20:08] <gary_poster> they were nasty but better than nothing, i thought
[20:09] <gary_poster> not good enough though :-)
[20:09] <benji> :)
[20:09] <benji> I am pretty sure the problem was two fold: the test that fails in prod is just a bad test (it doesn't test exactly what it thinks it tests) plus there is /some/ difference in CSS between dev and prod
[20:10] <gary_poster> ah
[20:10] <gary_poster> ok
[20:10] <benji> I can demonstrate an unrelated style difference between test and prod, but I am not certain what is causing the difference that exposed the bad test
[20:10] <gary_poster> weird
[20:11] <benji> I am reworking the test to just test the pixel calculation instead of the accedental details and will call it done, but there is still something broken somewhere
[20:11] <benji> I will file a bug with what I have on that front.
[20:22] <gary_poster> thanks
[20:32] <benji> gary_poster: ready when you are
[21:19] <Makyo> Going to take the dog to the vet, then lay down, will be on email.
[22:30] <swebb> Q: I got the juju gui going, but it doesn't seem to know about my juju cluster (or environment).  How do I point the GUI at my env?


[00:00] <tyche> greg-g: The text listed is actually MORE restrictive than the license actually is, so the post is still protected.  And no, it's more like saying "I use Linux" and having the link go to Ubuntu.com
[00:00] <greg-g> tyche: CC:BY is LESS restrictiv than BY-SA
[00:01] <tyche> No, it's MORE restrictive.  BY means that you HAVE to attribute the post to the original author.  SA means that you are PERMITTED to share-alike.
[00:02] <greg-g> tyche: actually not.
[00:02] <greg-g> Creative Comons is my employer
[00:02] <greg-g> BY is the least restictive license
[00:03] <greg-g> you still HAVE to attribute the post if it is under BY-SA
[00:03] <tyche> Yea, and I've been studying Copyright in conjunction to the TSCOG fiasco for the past 4 1/2 years.
[00:03] <greg-g> Attribution is the thing which is required in ALL CC licenses.
[00:03] <tyche> However, If you want to call johnc4510 out on it, feel free.
[00:04] <greg-g> tyche: sorry if you feel that I am calling John out on it, I am just saying that what he is saying and what he is linking to is differnt, and why not have those be the same.
[00:06] <tyche> "
[00:06] <tyche> "Authors can either not restrict modification, or use Share-alike (sa), which is a copyleft requirement that requires that any derived works be licensed under the same license, or No derivatives (nd), which requires that the work not be modified.." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons
[00:07] <greg-g> tyche: I'm not going to argue what the CC licenses mean with you. Especially if you wikipedia as opposed to the actual text of the license.
[00:07] <tyche> BTW, CC even SAYS to go to the wikipedia link for further information
[00:07] <greg-g> use the legal text, _that_ is what matters
[00:07] <greg-g> and where does CC say that?
[00:07] <snap-l> IIRC, CC licenses are pretty much all By Attribution
[00:08] <tyche> From the license:  'Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one.'
[00:08] <snap-l> the only ones that aren't are not CC, they're GPL
[00:08] <greg-g> tyche: right, in addition to attributing it to the original author
[00:08] <snap-l> The only differences are whether or not there's commercial or share alike
[00:09] <tyche> greg-g: http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Main_Page, bottom of the page
[00:09] <greg-g> snap-l: right (or NoDerivs, too)
[00:09] <tyche> "Also Visit Creative Commons Wikipedia Pages in Your Language"
[00:09] <snap-l> The only alternatives for no attribution are GPL or PD and their variants.
[00:10] <greg-g> tyche: that doesn't mean "take wikipedia as legal advice"
[00:10] <greg-g> that just means "here are some other pages that talk about CC"
[00:11] <tyche> yep.  But considering that CC makes the suggestion and the links, it adds credance to them
[00:11] <snap-l> Christ, using Wikipedia for Legal advice is akin to doing brain surgery from Grey's Anatomy (the book, not the show)
[00:12] <greg-g> tyche: what it means is "hey, if you can't read this page becase you speak a different language, go here to learn about CC in your native language"
[00:12] <greg-g> we are not saying "wikipedia is the place to get your answers regarding CC"
[00:13] <greg-g> and even if it did, you are misunderstanding a very vital point of all the CC licenses, they _all_ require attribution and BY-SA is _more_ restrictive than BY (just like the GPL is more restrictive than the MIT license)
[00:13] <tyche> BTW, at the bottom of the CC wiki page, I see a nice little symbol and some text.  The text reads: "Except where otherwise noted, content on this site is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License"
[00:13] <tyche> The symbol and the link are to CC-BY
[00:14] <greg-g> yes, so they match
[00:14] <greg-g> john says the same thing but links to the BY-SA license
[00:14] <tyche> The text does NOT say BY
[00:14] <greg-g> "BY" is shorthand for "Attribution"
[00:15] <greg-g> look at this link, and the text on the page: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
[00:15] <tyche> Yes, I know that.  And it's on the symbol.  But NOT in the text.
[00:15] <greg-g> what?
[00:15] <snap-l> http://creativecommons.org/about/licenses/
[00:15] <snap-l> 4.Restrictions:
[00:16] <greg-g> tyche: BY = attribution, SA = shareAlke, NC = NonCommercial, ND = NoDerivative
[00:16] <snap-l> Licensor designate another party or parties (e.g., a sponsor institute, publishing entity, journal) for attribution ("Attribution Parties") in Licensor's copyright notice, terms of service or by other reasonable means, the name of such party or parties; (ii)
[00:16] <snap-l> That's 4B under BY.
[00:17] <tyche> On that same link, see "Share Alike":  "You allow others to distribute derivative works only under a license identical to the license that governs your work."  The word "allow" is a permission, not a restriction.
[00:17] <snap-l> by-sa: 4b
[00:17] <greg-g> tyche: you're reading it wrong.
[00:17] <tyche> That's what the text says.
[00:17] <greg-g> the key word there is "only"
[00:18] <greg-g> tyche: if you don't believe me, go to #CC and ask which is more restrictive, BY or By-SA
[00:18] <snap-l> Every single license that's CC has the restriction under 4B about By Attribution
[00:19] <snap-l> Attribution is a given restriction. Share Alike is permission to share. Non-commercial is a restriction. No Derivs is also a restriction
[00:19] <greg-g> snap-l: sort-of
[00:19] <snap-l> Share-Alike is the only one that provides explicit permission
[00:20] <greg-g> BY-SA means if you use the work, anything created using it MUST be licensed under BY-SA
[00:20] <tyche> Of course, the BY is in all of them.  But the "Share Alike" is a permission, not a restriction.  It allows you to do certain things as long as certain requirements are met (attribution and same license used)
[00:20] <snap-l> Right right
[00:20] <snap-l> BY allows you to do whatever as long as you atribute the original authot
[00:20] <snap-l> author
[00:20] <greg-g> right, which is more restrictive than only BY, because I can use your BY-only licensed work in my book and re-license it All Rights reserved
[00:21] <greg-g> either way, none of this matters for the issue at hand: what the blog post says and what it links to are different, why not make them match?
[00:21] <greg-g> and, I have to go
[00:21] <greg-g> take care
[00:21] <greg-g> love the work (really do)
[18:08] <Pici> I'm working on a supybot plugin that will use gdata to read google calendars.  Would it be correct to say that every event will always have the channel name in the location field for each event? Perferable as the first word?
[18:10] <james_w> not every event will be in a channel I expect
[18:11] <Pici> Well, events that are in channels.
[18:11] <Pici> I just looked at a few more events, I may just grab the first word that starts with a hash instead.
[22:04] <boredandblogging> Pici: ping


[13:30] <ricotz> chrisccoulson, with ca-certificates-java been fixed, this needs a retry https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-security/+archive/ubuntu/rust-updates/+build/13512402