[02:37] <brousch> it is sad that mine is still the best answer http://askubuntu.com/questions/31244/how-to-install-python-2-7
[12:24] <brousch> jcastro: props on ubuntu stack exchange. i've been finding many more answers on there lately. it's much better than forums since the best answers are at the top instead of at the end
[12:30] <tjagoda> Opinions on ATT+T-Mobile, anyone?
[12:31] <rick_h_> booooo
[12:31] <rick_h_> but makes sense, they use mostly the same tech, and both have failing 4g plans
[12:31] <rick_h_> and everyone said tmo would be next iphone carrier
[12:32] <rick_h_> but poor jcastro with his one carrier that does a discount if you own your own phone
[12:34] <tjagoda> It makes much more sense than Sprint + Nextel
[12:34] <tjagoda> I am actually in the middle of quoting new wireless for work here
[12:34] <rick_h_> well, whenever one of these guys gets bought it makes sense
[12:34] <tjagoda> I was looking at T-mo and ATT
[12:35] <rick_h_> you're buying that spectrum that costs billions at auction
[12:35] <rick_h_> yea, we do verizon at my work
[12:35] <tjagoda> Sprint/Nextel made the least sense because they use incompatible networks
[12:35] <tjagoda> even still, the nextel network is a subset that sprint devices can't utilize
[12:35] <rick_h_> right, but they put out dual phones
[12:35] <rick_h_> and took over their spectrum they had
[12:35] <tjagoda> Which is stupid
[12:35] <rick_h_> and bought their tech
[12:35] <tjagoda> Which was old
[12:36] <rick_h_> bought their way into a lot of business users
[12:36] <rick_h_> which wasn't their core market when they started
[12:36] <tjagoda> I'll give you that one
[12:36] <rick_h_> it wasn't totally devoid of sense
[12:36] <tjagoda> I would say 80% devoid
[12:36] <rick_h_> it's not like they could afford to buy another carrier
[12:36] <tjagoda> =P
[12:36] <rick_h_> heh
[12:36] <rick_h_> but yea, the att-tmo thing makes sense from a lot of ways, but sucks that the anti-att could disappear
[12:36] <tjagoda> Everybody expects them to get bought up by Verizon now
[12:37] <rick_h_> sprint? I don't think they'd let it go through
[12:37] <rick_h_> that's the big thing now, "there's compeitition in the mobile market"
[12:37] <rick_h_> hard enough that tmo is going away
[12:37] <tjagoda> but really?
[12:37] <rick_h_> I don't think sprint could be allowed to go away as well
[12:37] <tjagoda> Can sprint really compete when ATT and Verizon are now huge giants with superior coverage and tech?
[12:37] <tjagoda> Sprint, the only non-iPhone non-Torch carrier?
[12:38] <rick_h_> admit, was hoping they and tmo would get together, they've been the ones to compete on prices/speed
[12:38] <rick_h_> psh, torch?
[12:38] <rick_h_> they still make those?
[12:38] <rick_h_> :P
[12:38] <tjagoda> Torch is sexy in business
[12:38] <rick_h_> we're a verizon place and I don't think there's 2 torches to put together
[12:38] <rick_h_> so I guess maybe if you're running your own BB servers
[12:39] <tjagoda> Blackberry Enterprise Server makes managing cellular devices a breeze, aye
[12:39] <rick_h_> but not without the forcing of BB down their throats it's not a sexy thing
[12:39] <tjagoda> Blackberry also has voice over wifi on their newest phones
[12:39] <rick_h_> tmo had that :(
[12:39] <tjagoda> It's blackberry technology
[12:40] <rick_h_> I thought tmo had that on all their devices, some android ones had it
[12:40] <rick_h_> was a pain because it only worked on tmo even for phones that were on other carriers
[12:40] <tjagoda> T-mo are the only ones who support it so far
[12:40] <rick_h_> http://www.dailywireless.org/2010/10/06/voice-over-wifi-for-t-mobile-android-phones/
[12:40] <rick_h_> right
[12:40] <tjagoda> But its cool because you can totally avoid buying a voice plan if you want
[12:40] <rick_h_> anyway, with the way ATT's been, it's not one ship I'd want to be on
[12:41] <rick_h_> glad I moved to verizon even if it means I get ripped over the coals for it
[12:41] <rick_h_> and once that 4g mifi gets out, going to be tough not to throw more $$ at them
[12:41] <rick_h_> we got in a mobile router to test out, had dual 4g usb devices on it for verizon
[12:41] <rick_h_> man, so fast
[12:42] <tjagoda> I see Verizon as the devil
[12:42] <tjagoda> They are arrogant and huge
[12:42] <tjagoda> Even moreso than the Death Star
[12:42] <rick_h_> yea, that's originally why I left them and went ATT 7/8 or so years ago
[12:42] <rick_h_> but I'm back because ATT is the new evil power
[12:42] <rick_h_> talk about arrogant
[12:42] <tjagoda> Dude
[12:43] <rick_h_> "we don't need a good android phone for 4 years because we have the iphone"
[12:43] <tjagoda> The verizon salesman I worked with literally said the following: "We are the most powerful wireless force in the universe, resistance is futile"
[12:43] <rick_h_> "we don't need to upgrade our 4g because it's not like the iphone supports it"
[12:43] <tjagoda> Those are totally valid statements unforunately
[12:43] <rick_h_> hey, drew me back to them after leaving them with pure hate in my blood years ago
[12:44] <tjagoda> I disagree with all of rick_h's hardware choices =P
[12:45] <rick_h_> heh, I waiting long/hard for ATT to get an android phone
[12:45] <snap-l> Remember when you had bandwidth to burn? You Will, and the company that will bring it to you? AT&T
[12:45] <rick_h_> I liked my wireless speeds/etc where I'm at
[12:45] <tjagoda> I don't care about Android
[12:45] <rick_h_> heh, good for you :)
[12:46] <rick_h_> some of us don't like to tether our phones or run BB servers
[12:46] <tjagoda> is snap-l agreeing with me?
[12:46] <tjagoda> If so, I am not used to this. =(
[12:46] <rick_h_> I'm not sure on that one
[12:46] <snap-l> tjagoda: AT&T's bandwidth caps are either one of two things
[12:46] <rick_h_> yea, I've got to check out those new caps on my u-verse
[12:46] <tjagoda> I don't expect them to last
[12:46] <snap-l> 1) They're trying to get people to switch to U-Verse (since u-Verse isn't capped)
[12:46] <rick_h_> they're pretty high, but my wife is liking the netflix
[12:46] <rick_h_> no, it's capped, just 100gb higher
[12:46] <rick_h_> 150 for dsl, 250 for uverse
[12:47] <snap-l> 2) AT&T is a bunch of money-grubbing bastards that want to become the next iteration of the phone company
[12:47] <snap-l> OK, well, then #2 it is
[12:47] <tjagoda> The only thing caps are trying to do is stomp out netflix and support their TV/Cable model
[12:47] <rick_h_> "only thing"
[12:47] <tjagoda> The congestion crap is bullshit
[12:48] <rick_h_> ATT, known for really building out that network
[12:48] <tjagoda> they're trying to cover their profit model
[12:48] <snap-l> tjagoda: Not from a certain point of view. ;)
[12:48] <rick_h_> loved this one tweet I saw "Wait, ATT had 39 billion dollars and still didn't use it to up more cell towers?!!!!!!!"
[12:48] <snap-l> Just that the congestion is Netflix. ;)
[12:48] <tjagoda> Note that I was not defending the douchebaggery
[12:48] <rick_h_> referring to the 39B spent on tmo
[12:48] <snap-l> rick_h_: Cell towers are ugly. Nobody wants to live next to one
[12:48] <snap-l> that's the big problem.
[12:49] <tjagoda> lololol
[12:49] <snap-l> I really hope A/L's little cell bricks take off
[12:49] <tjagoda> In detroit they put WiMAX repeaters on phone poles
[12:49] <tjagoda> Erh, Rochester*
[12:50] <tjagoda> Because it's really easy to confuse Detroit with Rochester.
[12:50] <tjagoda> -_-
[12:50] <snap-l> Don't worry, if the emergency managers get their way, we'll all be one big happy Detroit.
[12:51] <tjagoda> I live 30 miles North
[12:51] <wolfger> You mean, "one big happy Amwayville"
[12:51] <tjagoda> In a township
[12:51] <tjagoda> With my own water supply
[12:51] <tjagoda> so I think I am safe for the moment =(
[12:51] <snap-l> Hey, since the rest of the nation doesn't know about the suburbs, we should just make it so there aren't any.
[12:51] <snap-l> tjagoda: Not for long.
[12:51]  * wolfger laughs and cries
[12:52] <snap-l> everybody's broke
[12:52] <wolfger> I've been waiting so long for the official Froyo release
[12:52] <wolfger> and this weekend I got a text from AT&T telling me it's available, and giving me a link to go to, to get it
[12:52] <tjagoda> My township provides essentially no services
[12:52] <wolfger> and I just went there
[12:52] <tjagoda> How can they be broke?
[12:53] <wolfger> and "The page you requested is not available"
[12:53] <tjagoda> Fire, Police, and tax collection
[12:53] <rick_h_> poor wolfger
[12:54] <rick_h_> root, install gingerbread
[12:54] <tjagoda> No more BBerry updates for me
[12:54] <tjagoda> =(
[12:54] <rick_h_> why get excited for the latest 'froyo'
[12:54] <tjagoda> The Tour is not BBOS 6 compatible
[12:55] <tjagoda> Somebody told me the other day that the Blackberry is going to end up more open than Android
[12:55] <tjagoda> I giggled, and then sighed because they'll probably be right. =p
[12:55] <rick_h_> hmm, where've I seen that happen before
[12:55] <rick_h_> oh that's right, every dying company ties to OS their stuff right before they fall into oblivion
[12:55] <rick_h_> "if we open it up right before we die, the community will save us!"
[12:56] <wolfger> LOL
[12:56] <tjagoda> I don't think anybody could accuse RIM of opening up the OS
[12:56] <tjagoda> Pretty sure he meant the other way around
[12:56] <tjagoda> With Android slowly closing
[12:57] <rick_h_> tjagoda: what's that I heard? BBM on multiple platforms?
[12:57] <rick_h_> it's starting
[12:57] <tjagoda> What?
[12:57] <tjagoda> No
[12:57] <tjagoda> They're trying to get BBM to cover more bodies
[12:57] <tjagoda> and drag them into blackberry
[12:58] <tjagoda> How could you read that as opening the platform?
[12:58] <tjagoda> ABSURD
[12:58] <rick_h_> because they're turning into a SaS company
[12:58] <rick_h_> they can't compete on the hardware/OS level
[12:58] <tjagoda> Disagree, love their hardware
[12:58] <rick_h_> they're going to be a freaking layer like HTC Sense, or Motoblur soon enough
[12:58] <rick_h_> k, see you at the end of 2012, see who's closer
[12:58] <snap-l> So BB is going the way of the 3DO, then. :P
[12:59] <tjagoda> In fact, many people love Blackberry hardware
[12:59] <rick_h_> ok, sorry...OS
[12:59] <tjagoda> the software has been the primary fault for most of it's life, yes =P
[12:59] <rick_h_> but let's face it, the storm hasn't been a touch screen genie
[12:59] <snap-l> tjagoda: These people who love the BB hardware... I do not think they are as numerous as you claim
[12:59] <rick_h_> I guess I mean that their touch hardware/interface stuff hasn't kept up at all
[12:59] <tjagoda> I would agree on the touch
[13:00] <tjagoda> They don't even use the same league of technology on the storm series
[13:00] <rick_h_> 90% of smartphones sold (non-BB) are black slab devices with touch interfaces as the primary one
[13:00] <tjagoda> the Torch has better touch capability than anything previous
[13:00] <rick_h_> the Droid Pro and palm pre being the exceptions
[13:01] <tjagoda> I like the Torch because it's a synergy between touch interface and traditional blackberry interface
[13:01] <tjagoda> there is no phone which I can more easily use one handed while driving than a tactile blackberry
[13:01] <rick_h_> soon you'll see stuff like "HTC SuperPowers, now with BB Services for business"
[13:01] <tjagoda> No way
[13:01] <tjagoda> not ever in your life
[13:01] <rick_h_> lol
[13:01] <snap-l> tjagoda: RIM better do something soon
[13:01] <brousch> you should not use a phone while driving
[13:02] <rick_h_> it's their only way, software services baby
[13:02] <snap-l> Either dilute the brand, or step it up a notch
[13:02] <rick_h_> they can't even compete with consumers on price any more
[13:02] <tjagoda> The Torch was their "catchup" device
[13:02] <snap-l> either way, they're strangling themselves ala Palm
[13:02] <tjagoda> It had not new advances
[13:02] <tjagoda> just brought them within shouting distance of Android/iPhone
[13:02] <rick_h_> heh, catch up? did it really 'catch up'?
[13:02] <rick_h_> everything I saw says "nope"
[13:02] <tjagoda> That's because you read Iloveandroid.com
[13:02] <tjagoda> =P
[13:02] <rick_h_> have you seen their dev market?
[13:03] <rick_h_> ok, have fun, but someone here sounds like he's seriously in denial
[13:03]  * rick_h_ whistles
[13:03] <tjagoda> You judge a phone by it's app store?
[13:03] <tjagoda> ..one device in to catchup mode?
[13:03] <rick_h_> I judge a computer by the apps it runs sure
[13:03] <rick_h_> come on, even BB knows it's in trouble. "We have a tablet...with a diff OS...and we're trying to run android apps on it"
[13:04] <rick_h_> "oh, and you have to dev for it in a totally diff way..."
 That's the problem with this thing
[13:08] <rick_h_> "oh, it shows off very fancy in demo mode"
[13:08] <rick_h_> but nothing to real life usage
[13:09] <rick_h_> the question on how well this thing will work without a BB phone is still out there
[13:09] <tjagoda> You are absolutely a zealot, sir =P
[13:09] <rick_h_> no, just anti BB :)
[13:09] <tjagoda> There is no difference between that and what I just said
[13:09] <rick_h_> I don't think there's a compelling android tablet either, sucks
[13:09] <rick_h_> and don't feel a great need for any tablet to be honest
[13:10] <tjagoda> I would replace my netbook with a tablet if I had a tablet which could do more than just consume content
[13:10] <rick_h_> but when it comes to android v BB...unless your business has signed you up for BB server goodness, it's not even close
[13:10] <rick_h_> heh "I'd replace my laptop with a tablet if a tablet was a laptop"
[13:10] <snap-l> The only reason that anyone uses BB is because of the enterprise integrtion
[13:10] <snap-l> if that were to suffer, the BB market would tank
[13:10] <snap-l> period
[13:11] <tjagoda> No disagreement there
[13:11] <snap-l> And if someone were to do enterprise better than BB, then BB would be inserious trouble
[13:11] <rick_h_> right, but in today's world of people bringing consumer devices into the enterprise...how can it not tang?
[13:11] <rick_h_> /tang/tank
[13:11] <snap-l> They've essentially taken on the role of Palm in this scenario: Do one thing and do it really well
[13:11] <tjagoda> I think you overestimate how many corporations allow that
[13:11] <rick_h_> you hear it over and over again, the big boss comes in with his fancy new toy
[13:12] <snap-l> and of course we're all singing the praises of Palm now, aren't we.
[13:12] <rick_h_> heh, I had it happen to me man
[13:12] <snap-l> tjagoda: bullshit. :)
[13:12] <tjagoda> ITW is a fortune 200 company and we have rules specifically /against/ that
[13:12] <snap-l> tjagoda: Some boss gets tired of carrying around the BB, and wants to start using his brand new HTC jismulator
[13:12] <snap-l> because it's just so freaking amazing
[13:12] <tjagoda> We're a manufacturing company
[13:12] <tjagoda> I think you're overestimating the boss
[13:12] <snap-l> tjagoda: Tough
[13:13] <snap-l> This boss is lord of the company
[13:13] <tjagoda> No
[13:13] <tjagoda> We're run by financials
[13:13] <snap-l> he makes more money in the toilet for the company than anyone else
[13:13] <tjagoda> The company is the lord of the boss
[13:13] <snap-l> so you now have to get his HTC Jismulator working
[13:13] <tjagoda> What you are describing is the opposite of what actually happens here
[13:13] <wolfger> @tjagoda re: boss.... You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
[13:14] <snap-l> And your company is the model for other companies?
[13:14] <wolfger> If the person you're calling "boss" can't get his way, then he isn't actually the boss
[13:14] <snap-l> I've seen it happen with just about every company that I've been a part of
[13:14] <tjagoda> No, but you all seem to think that it's the same throughout all of the market, I was attempting to point out that it isnt
[13:14] <snap-l> "How do I get my Palm 7 to do e-Mail and access the intranet website"?
[13:15] <snap-l> Little exception documents about "don't turn xx off, or you'll get the ire of one of the VPs"
[13:15] <snap-l> never mind that the VP graduated to another section in the last millenia
[13:18] <snap-l> I'm sure there's a Domino server still running at Chrysler to support a few executives that have 6TB quotas that refuse to migrate to Exchange. ;)
[13:19] <tjagoda> We have so much corporate rule and regulation that any manager short of VP doesn't really have the ability to make absurd executive claims
[13:20] <snap-l> tjagoda: I hope nobody in your executive area picks up PC Magazine
[13:20] <snap-l> Or you are in for a world of hurt.
[13:20] <tjagoda> And to be honest, unless it is financially justified in terms of a ROI, we practically never move platforms
[13:20] <tjagoda> so we'll be BBerry until everything else is shit cheap, or otherwise
[13:21] <snap-l> That day is coming
[13:21] <snap-l> Are you on exchange?
[13:21] <tjagoda> Yes and no
[13:21] <snap-l> expect Microsoft to make inroads for Windows phone 7
[13:22] <tjagoda> I don't feel a threat from WinMo 7
[13:22] <tjagoda> especially with all the shit in the media about it
[13:23] <snap-l> Yes, but if the handsets are cheaper, and doesn't require the infrastructure to support it like it does with the BB, you'll be looking into it
[13:23] <snap-l> Understand, you're not making the decisions; finance is. ;)
[13:23] <tjagoda> With all the data they eat they wouldn't be cheaper in the foreseeable future
[13:23] <snap-l> and Microsoft has a _very_ nice lunch budget.
[13:24] <tjagoda> Most of our blackberry users are sub 100 MB of monthly data consumption
[13:24] <tjagoda> That's like breakfast for a WinMo7
[13:24] <tjagoda> =P
[13:25] <brousch> i just convinced the boss to get his own android
[13:25] <brousch> it took about a year to finally convince him to get rid of his ancient palm pilot
[13:26] <tjagoda> We essentially do not restrict personal calls or text messaging
[13:26] <tjagoda> so for the most part my BBerry user base is content
[13:26] <brousch> within a month we will have 3 company androids
[13:26] <tjagoda> because we've shut up any possible complaint by giving them free shit
[13:29] <snap-l> tjagoda: So, when the revolution comes, you'll be completely blindsided. ;)
[13:29] <snap-l> Good, keep it that way. ;)
[13:30] <tjagoda> The market can be turned in favor of blackberry as quickly as it turned them out of favor
[13:30] <tjagoda> we shall see =P
[13:30] <snap-l> I'd wager you on this, but I'm not doing so well with my other prognostications. :)
[13:30] <brousch> there are ways they could survive
[13:30] <tjagoda> They may have been waiting for the last 5 years listening to complaints of people with droids and iphones
[13:30] <tjagoda> who knows
[13:31] <brousch> in the construction field, we need a tough tablet that can work with autodesk stuff
[13:31] <brousch> i'm sure there are similar needs in other fields
[13:31] <brousch> if they can get into those niches they could survive
[13:33] <brousch> they have to move fast though, before ipad apps for these things are developed
[13:42] <jrwren> SOX probably says that those execs have to keep their 6TB of mail.
[13:43] <tjagoda> I hate SOX with such a passion.
[13:43] <snap-l> jrwren: SOX can go die in a fire.
[13:43] <jrwren> :)
[13:43] <wolfger> SOX.... those mandatory meetings I have really no recollection of whatsoever.
[13:58] <wolfger> Gotta love overhearing "use some common sense" at work...
[14:00] <wolfger> and then the less-politically-correct ranting that ensues after he hangs up the phone. :-)
[14:05] <rick_h_> and here's the master plan, all about spectrum/4g: http://www.androidcentral.com/att-targets-t-mobiles-current-3g-spectrum-expanded-lte-capacity
[14:05] <rick_h_> tjagoda: ^
[14:05] <rick_h_> back to your original question on thoughts of tmo/att
[14:10] <tjagoda> Expanding coverage and quality
[14:10] <tjagoda> win
[14:11] <tjagoda> 95% of the US Population
[14:11] <tjagoda> I wonder how much of that number is lie
[14:12] <greg-g> about 95%
[14:13] <brousch> the 95% is not the lie, it is the definition of "coverage"
[14:14] <brousch>  * if you get 1 bar of 2G for 1 second out of each minute on a clear and sunny night, you're covered!
[14:14] <brousch> hm, clear and sunny night
[14:15] <tjagoda> You live in a special place
[14:15] <snap-l> sounds like insurance. ;)
[14:15] <brousch> oh, and you have to stand on your roof
[14:15] <snap-l> "You were covered up until your car lost signal and crashed into that light pole"
[14:16] <brousch> i suppose clear and sunny nights occur in the arctic circle
[14:16] <snap-l> yep
[14:17] <tjagoda> so 95% of canada is covered?
[14:17] <brousch> 95% of canadians
[14:18] <brousch> only like 5% of canada is settled, right?
[14:18] <wolfger> which is a far cry from 95% of US population
[14:19] <tjagoda> Only about 50% of Canada has never been settled
[14:19] <snap-l> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ammqvMoE0_s
[14:19] <snap-l> s/settled/had a tim hortons built on it/
[14:19] <brousch> pine trees and frozen tundra
[14:20] <tjagoda> Mmm Tim Hortons.
[14:20] <brousch> mmmm, tim hortons. the best thing to come out of canada
[14:20] <wolfger> Tim's == civilization
[14:20] <rick_h_> no, it's no good once it leaves canada
[14:20] <snap-l> jcastro: That link above is for you.
[14:20] <tjagoda> Tim Hortons is greater than Insulin?
[14:20] <tjagoda> =P
[14:20] <snap-l> Better yet,
[14:20] <snap-l> jcastro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ammqvMoE0_s
[14:21] <wolfger> rick_h_: Michigan is part of Canada, really
[14:21] <brousch> i used to walk across UM to get food at tim horton's
[14:21] <rick_h_> ok, well the one next to me sucks
[14:21] <rick_h_> at least snap-l convinced me that it's better closer to canada
[14:22] <wolfger> Hmm.  Could you either try again with correct inlines, or form complete thoughts and sentances. k, ty, bai"
[14:27] <rick_h_> no, so he kind of did it using html reply with colored response
[14:28] <rick_h_> so now when I hit reply, mutt's confused and merged his comments with mine, and he added his giant company "This message is only for ..."
[14:28] <rick_h_> at the top of the reply
[14:28] <rick_h_> just a mess
[14:28] <brousch> hehe
[14:28] <jrwren> oh.
[14:28] <jrwren> I thought outlook does that.
[14:29] <jrwren> it really only works with other outlook replies and trashes the plain text reply.
[14:29] <jrwren> hate that.
[14:29] <rick_h_> ah, that explains it then
[14:29] <jrwren> its 2011 and email still doesn't work.
[14:29] <greg-g> yeah, there is one person who is on a bunchof mailing list I'm on who tries to do inline, but his first line of his comment always starts with a ">" thus I miss it sometimes
[14:29] <brousch> jrwren: and it sounds like it's MS's fault ;)
[14:29] <rick_h_> because it's 2011 and people want their custom font signatures ugh
[14:29] <jrwren> this is a case where I actually like gmails' less is more
[14:30] <snap-l> I just say "Please put your reply in a Word document"
[14:30] <jrwren> simply don't allow that b.s.
[14:30] <snap-l> and then reject it
[14:30] <rick_h_> I'm rewriting the message, fortunately things like mutt/vim and gq command helps a ton
[14:31] <tjagoda> Put you reply in a word document
[14:31] <tjagoda> trololololol
[14:31] <tjagoda> I'm sending you an email which is 50% HTML, 50% plain text
[14:31] <wolfger> jrwren: if you live and/or work inside a covered area, you are covered. So... not as impressive as it sounds to cover 95% of the population.
[14:31] <jrwren> wolfger: exactly.
[14:33] <rick_h_> greg-g: you see CHC in AA tonight?
[14:33] <rick_h_> their new "monday" thing
[14:33] <brousch> is it also an ubuntu hour?
[14:34] <tjagoda> Every hour is Ubuntu hour.
[14:34] <wolfger> jrwren && rick_h_: Let's not forget the people^h^h^h^h^h^h^h managers who will send you an e-mail simply saying "fyi" or "please respond", followed by a dozen e-mails worth of top-posted replies, each of which are greater than one screen-height in length.
[14:34] <tjagoda> What's wrong with that?
[14:34] <tjagoda> =p
[14:34] <greg-g> rick_h_: yeah, saw that. I know Cory Kaufman from the School of Information
[14:35] <rick_h_> greg-g: awesome
[14:35] <tjagoda> Does he have a relative named Sara?
[14:35] <brousch> i need to point my boss to this conversation. he does not believe me when i tell him that cannot be fixed
[14:35] <greg-g> :P
[14:36] <rick_h_> brousch: yea, when I first started my boss warned me
[14:36] <rick_h_> because I was handling his replies all nice and bottom post/cleaned up like
[14:36] <rick_h_> "just fyi, people here don't know the email ettiquette so you'll get a lot of top posting and confusing replies"
[14:36] <greg-g> heh
[14:37] <rick_h_> lead by example I guess :)
[14:37] <tjagoda> I think if I tried to do anything other than top posting, everybody here would be confused and just stop reading my email.
[14:37] <brousch> we will have a long thread between 3 or 4 parties regarding contractual changes and then my boss gets a forwarded copy of the whole gob at the end
[14:38] <brousch> then he prints it out and shuffles sheets of paper around to get it in some sort of order
[14:38] <wolfger> Every once in a while people here will reply almost-correctly to an e-mail. But they insist on doing it by making the reply text a different color.
[14:38] <wolfger> So if it happens more than twice in a single thread..... taste the rainbow.
[14:42] <greg-g> brousch: ohman, that is so sad
[14:42] <wolfger> kill me. kill me now.
[14:42] <brousch> my arms are too short!
[14:42] <wolfger> Just overheard "everything should be on the cloud, anyway"
[14:42] <_stink_> HAH
[14:43] <rick_h_> nice, now ask them to define "cloud"
[14:43] <snap-l> cloud = Not on my budget
[14:44] <_stink_> yeah, i've wondered if other people bottom post at work
[14:44] <snap-l> someone else should pay for it, I just get to use it
[14:44] <_stink_> if i did that people wouldn't know wtf i was doing
[14:44] <snap-l> I've given up bottom posting in Outlook
[14:44] <snap-l> it just doesn't work.
[14:44] <_stink_> 'hay you didn't write anything'
[14:44] <rick_h_> _stink_: as long as I trim the original and make sure I do it well, it's not like peoepl can't figure it out
[14:44] <wolfger> now same person is off on an Apple fanboy tirade about how Jobs is a tech genius
[14:44] <rick_h_> I mean, you don't leave 100 lines of crap and reply one line at the bottom
[14:44] <snap-l> rick_h_: Says you. ;)
[14:44] <_stink_> hehe
[14:45] <rick_h_> snap-l: yep, says me :P
[14:45] <_stink_> rick_h_ always takes the high road.
[14:45] <snap-l> I quote 1000 posts in Usenet just to add "blow me"
[14:45] <rick_h_> lol
[14:45] <snap-l> er, 1000 line posts
[14:45] <rick_h_> sometimes I do feel like 90% of my job is 'lead by example'
[14:45] <snap-l> You're the RMS of your workplace. ;)
[14:45] <rick_h_> 'look, here's some nice comments, didn't you find those helpful? You should try that.'
[14:46] <wolfger> RMH?
[14:46] <rick_h_> 'Oh look, you ask about that, and over on our docs server, under my project name, is a doc on that...isn't that cool?"
[14:46]  * snap-l really shouldn't bait rick_h_ like that, since he does know where I live.
[14:46] <rick_h_> snap-l: heh, I have to be careful, you edit the postcasts
[14:46] <rick_h_> I don't always listen to every minute of every one
[14:46] <rick_h_> and you have commit rights to bookie :/
[14:46] <snap-l> Yay, we have a cold war. ;)
[14:47]  * rick_h_ is rethinking the shared repo...forking ftw?
[14:47] <snap-l> rick_h_: Perhaps
[14:47] <snap-l> Would keep me from screwing up the repo every other push
[14:47] <rick_h_> lol
[14:47] <rick_h_> well, learning is best done painfully
[14:47] <wolfger> the more it hurts, the better you remember
[14:47] <snap-l> I see git like a slot machine
[14:48] <snap-l> every time I pull the repo, I see if it blew things up. ;)
[14:49] <snap-l> Yipes... Kraftwerk's "Expo 2000, 2001 mix" just popped on
[14:49] <snap-l> I think I suddenly feel sorry for anyone that lived under us
[14:50] <snap-l> er, sorry, Kling Klang Mix 2002
[15:24] <binbrain> todays groupon, half off botox, score
[15:24] <snap-l> rockin'
[15:33] <rick_h_> I know it's the hater in me, but 3rd article I've seen on it: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/macbook-pro-2011-owners-complain-of-hard-freeze-problems/11953
[15:33] <rick_h_> must be all that thunder inside :P
[15:34] <greg-g> I love it
[15:34] <rick_h_> so let's go all out, it's apple's strategy to keep you from overloading your system
[15:34] <rick_h_> then you realize all you do you can do on an ipad
[15:34]  * brousch channels Steve Jobs: "All laptops have this problem. You're just setting it wrong. Free cooling pad for all!"
[15:35] <rick_h_> shipping costs go way down, and they can put out a new one every year, win!
[15:35] <rick_h_> ok, crazy hating over, back to work :)
[15:35] <brousch> apple's newest best seller: $150 cooling lap pad
[15:36] <snap-l> brousch: You're doing it wrong
[15:36] <brousch> it's an aluminum sheet with ultraquiet fans and a perfectly contoured velvet cushion for your legs
[15:36] <snap-l> the Apple air-conditioned tent
[15:36] <rick_h_> heh, "Steve: we can't ship this, the fans are too loud"
[15:36] <snap-l> Why sell a $150 hack, when you can sell an entire experience
[15:36] <rick_h_> engineer: "So his test is 4:32 long, don't kick fans on until 4:40 and he'll never notice"
[15:37] <brousch> the fans blow the air onto your genitals to make sure you have a happy feeling
[15:37] <rick_h_> "it'll lock up, but we'll be on our way to the lab by then"
[15:37] <snap-l> ikea desk, and a quiet AC unit
[15:37] <rick_h_> ooh, in all white, I Like it
[15:37] <rick_h_> with magnet cover
[15:37] <rick_h_> they're going to need bigger stores
[15:37] <brousch> why? one desk won't take up much space
[15:38] <rick_h_> no, you have to deck the place with different colored desk covers to get the full skittles effect
[15:39] <brousch> it's all white and aluminum and black now
[15:41] <snap-l> Man, you guys lack imagination
[15:41] <snap-l> The Apple Hyperbaric chamber
[15:41] <snap-l> use your Mac in quiet contentment
[15:41] <rick_h_> naw, you can't show off to other people and they can see you use it
[15:42] <snap-l> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/HyperbaricDive_Chamber_1.jpg
[15:42] <snap-l> They'll just see the giant Apple logo outside.
[15:42] <snap-l> and wish they could participate.
[15:51] <brousch> i want people to see my face while i use the apple. that way they can see my superior smugness and know that i am awesome. i don't want to hide away in some cave
[15:54] <snap-l> That's why it'll be transparent
[15:54] <brousch> ah, excellent
[15:54] <snap-l> and it'll also have the iBoombox
[15:54] <brousch> make it so
[15:54] <snap-l> as an added feature
[15:54] <snap-l> so you can listen to superior sound in your hyperbaric chamber.
[15:55] <snap-l> all the whole cooling your environment so your computer may be content
[15:55] <brousch> a little fold-up tent to place over my starbucks table?
[15:55] <snap-l> and it'll also have an iSlanket option as well
[15:55] <brousch> that is awesome
[15:55] <brousch> lockable door
[15:57] <snap-l> Yeah, it'll signal the return of the Apple iPod HiFi
[16:42] <jrwren> what is the _ convention for private in python?  v. __ ?
[16:42] <jrwren> is that pep8 ?
[16:43] <rick_h_> _ is for private
[16:43] <rick_h_> __ is for magic methods
[16:44] <jrwren> ty
[16:44] <jrwren> magic methods eh? what does that mean?
[16:44] <rick_h_> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/ Naming Conventions section
[16:44] <rick_h_> mainly interface type things
[16:44] <rick_h_> __init__
[16:44] <rick_h_> __iter__
[16:44] <rick_h_> __dict__
[16:45] <rick_h_> so to implement something as a context manager you implement the __enter__ and __exit__ methods
[16:45]  * rick_h_ 's new favorite thing
[16:46] <jrwren> oh, that kind of magic.
[16:46] <rick_h_> right
[16:46] <jrwren> whose context manager?
[16:47] <rick_h_> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0343/
[16:47] <rick_h_> ugh, far down are the examples
[16:47] <rick_h_> basically provides a wrapper around a section of code with really pretty syntax sugar
[16:47] <rick_h_> using the `with` statement/keyword
[16:48] <rick_h_> http://requires-thinking.blogspot.com/2009/02/this-is-python-context-managers-and.html
[16:48] <rick_h_> more 'I'm using it now like this' example
[16:49] <jrwren> oh right, "with"
[16:49] <jrwren> with is very cool.
[16:49] <jrwren> its like C#'s using, only even cooler
[16:49] <rick_h_> yea, and you can write custom `with` things by implementing its two magic methods
[16:50] <rick_h_> so anyway, magic methods hook into existing syntax usage, without subclassing/interface defining
[16:50] <rick_h_> you just do some stuff and magic happens
[16:51] <jrwren> sounds like an implicit interface.
[16:52] <rick_h_> yea
[16:52] <rick_h_> anyway, all methods used for that start/end with __
[16:53] <jrwren> TY
[16:55] <rick_h_> love it: http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2011/03/21/python-hpc/
[16:57] <snap-l> I love it when I think of a song in my head, and it's something that I've played on OMC
[16:57] <rick_h_> nice
[16:57] <snap-l> rick_h_: Python is replacing Fortran, afaict.
[16:57] <rick_h_> yea, just love the last line "notice the lack of ruby, java... :)"
[17:13] <jrwren> ruby I can see.
[17:13] <jrwren> but java is not a poor performer, nor is perl.
[17:13] <jrwren> posts like that are just dogmatic idiocy
[17:15] <binbrain> hmm, looking up "implicit interfaces" for c#, doesn't seem to be anything "implicit" about it???
[17:16] <jrwren> nope, nothing implicit
[17:17] <jrwren> well, you don't mark which methods implement the interface, its implicit by matching signature.
[17:17] <jrwren> as opposed to explicit interface impl. go look that up :)
[17:17] <binbrain> so basically some inference needed
[17:18] <rick_h_> it's all relative
[17:20] <binbrain> rick_h_: real interface support now in Pyramid, wonder if people will them now, I don't mean ABCs either
[17:20] <binbrain> will <use> them
[17:26] <rick_h_> binbrain: nope, people aren't happy to see them there for the most part
[17:26] <rick_h_> it's 'zopish'
[17:26] <binbrain> baah
[17:26] <snap-l> greg-g: Opinion, please, if you have a chance: http://openmetalcast.com/2011/03/21/license-mix-up/
[17:29] <snap-l> updated a bit
[17:31] <greg-g> So, since you only hold the rights to the content you create, you are in effect only licensing your intro/outro/commentary/interviews. You aren't licensing the music that is already made available under some other license. ...
[17:31] <snap-l> Oh, so I could keep it BY-NC-SA?
[17:32] <snap-l> even with By-NC-ND?
[17:32] <snap-l> (content)
[17:32] <greg-g> What you can say is: "All OMC-original content is licensed XXX while each song in this podcast is available under the terms listed below" then list each song title and their license
[17:32] <greg-g> (ugh lag)
[17:32] <snap-l> Ah, OK.
[17:32] <greg-g> then it is explicit about what parts are licensed how
[17:33] <snap-l> quick question, while I have you here.
[17:33] <greg-g> shoot
[17:33] <snap-l> If I use a song clip , and speak over it, am I creatinv a deriv?
[17:33] <greg-g> yeah :/
[17:33] <greg-g> *probably*
[17:34] <greg-g> actually, only *maybe*
[17:34] <snap-l> so what I'm doing for lococast is derivs, then?
[17:34] <greg-g> come on lag!
[17:34] <greg-g> lemme think....
[17:34] <snap-l> I'm not remixing the material
[17:34] <snap-l> only lowering the volume and speaking over it like I would on the radio
[17:35] <greg-g> so, in the license it has "For the avoidance of doubt, where the Work is a musical work, performance or phonogram, the synchronization of the Work in timed-relation with a moving image ("synching") will be considered an Adaptation for the purpose of this License."
[17:35] <greg-g> that only mentions music+video, of course
[17:35] <snap-l> of course. :)
[17:38] <greg-g> so.... as your pro-bono non-legal legal advice, you are OK.
[17:38] <snap-l> Thanks. :)
[17:38] <greg-g> I don't think it would be deemed a derivative and even if it was, your use would deinitely be considered a fair use
[17:39] <snap-l> I figured this was back-of-the-envelope. :)
[17:39] <greg-g> damnit, this channel is logged
[17:39]  * greg-g creates #ubuntu-us-mi-offtopic
[17:39] <snap-l> I won't hold you to any opinion.
[17:39] <rick_h_> heh
[17:40] <rick_h_> take it to bookie, I can't even get ops back in there so you're safe
[17:40] <greg-g> haha
[17:41] <snap-l> Honestly, though, I don't want folks cutting up the episode to get the music out of it
[17:41] <snap-l> I'd rather they get it from the artists themselves.
[17:41] <snap-l> I'm not creating mixtapes. ;)
[17:42] <brousch> what if he sings along with the music? or makes instrument sounds with his mouth?
[17:42] <snap-l> I'm also curious about CC-licensed covers of popular songs
[17:43] <snap-l> I'm of the mind that even if the performance is CC, that ASCAP / BMI are still able to collect dues.
[17:44] <greg-g> right, covers are derivatives of something, either the original recording, or the lyrics, or the musical score, or all 3 (and each has separate copyright)
[17:44] <snap-l> Yeah, that's why I stay away from covers
[17:44]  * greg-g nods
[17:44] <greg-g> smart
[17:44] <snap-l> even though there's one of Rick Astley that I desperately want to play. ;)
[17:45] <greg-g> brousch: can I use the oft-used lawyer refrain? "it depends" :P
[17:45] <greg-g> snap-l: awesome, linky?
[17:46] <snap-l> http://onehitwonders.bandcamp.com/album/vol-i
[17:47] <greg-g> I might regret saying this, but, this isn't half bad
[17:47] <snap-l> Yeah, it's pretty good
[17:48] <snap-l> but it's still Astley
[17:48] <snap-l> ie: his licenses.
[19:13] <brousch> rick_h_: what was your favorite pycon presentation? i have a few minutes to watch one
[19:13] <rick_h_> check out the disqus one
[19:13] <rick_h_> for pure fun, the one with the old computer, audio xxx
[19:14] <brousch> disqus sounds better
[19:15] <rick_h_> it's not
[19:15] <rick_h_> but disqus is cool
[19:16] <snap-l> disqus makes Jesus cry
[19:17] <jrwren> jesus is a cry baby
[19:17] <rick_h_> http://pycon.blip.tv/file/4878868/
[19:17] <rick_h_> everyone watch that, it's the most raved presentation of pycon
[19:18] <snap-l> Yeah, that's definitely on my radar
[19:18] <snap-l> mostly because I actually used a Superboard at one point
[19:18]  * snap-l wishes he had one. ;)
[19:18] <brousch> too late. started disqus
[19:21] <rick_h_> the one about the telescope array was highly rated
[19:21] <rick_h_> dropbox had a great one
[19:21] <rick_h_> but their plenary was ugh
[19:37] <binbrain> rick_h_ I really enjoyed "The Python that wasn't" http://blip.tv/file/4881006
[19:37] <rick_h_> cool, haven't heard about that one/seen it
[19:38] <binbrain> good overview of the PEPS that have been rejected and why
[19:44] <greg-g> I need some good working music, what is everyone listening to?
[19:44] <rick_h_> heh, hans zimmer, probably not a good suggestion
[19:45] <greg-g> oh, movie scores? interesting :)
[19:46] <rick_h_> yea, big fan since backdraft soundtrack
[19:46] <rick_h_> did all the pirates of ... movies
[19:46] <greg-g> cool
[19:46] <rick_h_> latest batman
[19:46] <greg-g> yeah, might check out some classical actually
[19:52] <snap-l> I just got a drive-by phone call from a friend from college.
[19:54] <rick_h_> cool
[19:54] <snap-l> Also playing with Beautiful Soup
[19:55] <snap-l> which is the most awesome named library for XML parsing ever
[19:59] <rick_h_> yea, very handy
[20:24] <brousch> rick_h_: superboard talk was some crazy wtf stuff
[20:48] <rick_h_> brousch: isn't it
[20:48] <rick_h_> not all that educational, but just pure fun/wow
[20:48] <brousch> i'm a little afraid of that guy now
[20:48] <rick_h_> lol
[20:48] <brousch> definitely awed
[20:49] <brousch> i love that he ported a bunch of stuff to python3 to get it done, so it's not just a waste of time
[20:53] <rick_h_> oh yea, definitely learned a few things for sure
[20:53] <rick_h_> I love his line "take away all the fun from a project and you're left with deployment"
[20:53] <rick_h_> that was a big OH while at pycon
[21:01] <brousch> does celery  do the same thing as 0mq?
[21:04] <snap-l> hah
[21:05] <brousch> time for grpug. laters
[21:17] <snap-l> http://openmetalcast.com
[21:17] <snap-l> http://identi.ca/conversation/66693523#notice-67752595
[21:17] <snap-l> Bah, copypasta
[21:26] <rick_h_> hah, awesome
[21:30] <snap-l> Sorry, but who thinks of these things?
[21:31] <rick_h_> heh, "what happens when you raise a bunch of money for a bunch of college kids who don't know a lot of programming?"
[21:31] <snap-l> rick_h_: ++
[21:31] <rick_h_> wooo! hopefully they're taking design classes next semester
[21:31] <rick_h_> but this just came out?
[21:31] <snap-l> Hopefully they learn a thing or two about disparate systems
[21:31] <rick_h_> so much for release early/often/iterate
[21:32] <snap-l> I think it's just someone noticing this
[22:04] <snap-l> rick_h_: Um, did you forget to post something?
[22:04] <snap-l> for lococast? :)
[22:04] <rick_h_> snap-l: yes :)
[22:04] <rick_h_> todo for tonight
[22:04] <snap-l> heh
[22:05] <rick_h_> have the boy
[22:05] <rick_h_> meant to do it last night but caught up with bookie
[22:05] <snap-l> (whoops)
[22:05] <rick_h_> well, tough, have multiple todo/loves
[22:06] <rick_h_> AZ!!!!!!                      Zvb zcx               z
[22:06] <rick_h_>  dczxz
[22:06] <rick_h_> says michael
[22:06] <snap-l> rick_h_: Oh, I'm not being accusatorial
[22:06] <snap-l> Just fell off of my radar as well
[22:13] <rick_h_> snap-l: yea, I was "I just want to push this one bookie fix...and then I'll do the foord post"
[22:13] <rick_h_> and well, hours tend to go by when I say that I realize now
[22:15] <rick_h_> DBO snap-l you guys up for thurs interview 8:30pm?
[22:16] <DBO> sure
[22:16] <rick_h_> speaking of stuff I need to get going
[22:16] <snap-l> rick_h_: I think that'll work
[22:17] <rick_h_> cool, will work on notes/etc after I get foord out :)
[23:40] <rick_h_> snap-l: ok, out and emailed Michael to let him know