[00:00] <AxD09> might have to check the logs
[00:00] <GridCube> no dice?
[00:00] <GeminiDomino> Been doing that
[00:00] <GeminiDomino> Doesn't seem to be anything in the X.org log to tell me what's going on...
[00:00] <GeminiDomino> GridCube: Means it didn't work
[00:01] <GridCube> you already tried gdm?
[00:01] <GridCube> that was fast
[00:01] <AxD09> dmesg?
[00:01] <GridCube> well don't know then
[00:01] <GeminiDomino> GridCube: Yep, already replaced lightdm
[00:01] <GeminiDomino> AxD09: A bunch of nouveau spam but nothing that looks like an error
[00:02] <AxD09> wonder if blacklisting nouveau or install the official drivers would help
[00:03] <GeminiDomino> AxD09: That's my thought... Damn nouveau has been a ballbuster on a bunch of boxen and distros for me for over a year now. :P
[00:04] <AxD09> I love linux setups, but the tweaks. My god, the tweaks and fixes.
[00:04] <GeminiDomino> Normally I'm okay with that
[00:04] <GeminiDomino> but making something so flaky a default just makes me facepalm. :P
[00:05] <AxD09> eh, it's the way things are nowadays unless you want something a bit harder to setup.
[00:07] <GeminiDomino> Harder to setup isn't a problem. Maintain, on the other hand...
[00:07] <GeminiDomino> if it wasn't for having to maintain three dozen boxen, I'd still be using Slack. :)
[00:10] <GridCube> i havnet had that many problems actually
[00:10] <AxD09> Let's hope the wifi card works :)
[00:11] <AxD09> It's crazy how common the broadcoms are, yet the give people so much trouble
[00:11] <GeminiDomino> Yeah. Got that working, thank the maker
[00:13] <GeminiDomino> Okay... used jockey-text to install nvidia, blacklisted nouveau... rebooting now. Here goes nothin'
[00:14] <GeminiDomino> Damn it
[00:14] <GeminiDomino> now I get a glimpse of the nvidia splash screen before it goes back to gdm
[00:15] <GeminiDomino> So it's not lightdm and not nouveau
[00:15] <GeminiDomino> joy
[00:16] <AxD09> you dont need a login manager to start xfce, right?
[00:17] <GridCube> nope
[00:17] <GeminiDomino> nope
[00:17] <GeminiDomino> found something interesting in auth.conf tho
[00:17] <AxD09> well yea, was more of a suggestion
[00:17] <GeminiDomino> "nox11 mode, ignoring PAM_TTY :0" ?
[00:20] <AxD09> hmm
[00:20] <AxD09> http://skralljt.info/?p=586
[00:20] <GeminiDomino> Looks like iut might be PAM screwing with me
[00:21] <GeminiDomino> nope.
[00:21] <AxD09> the link?
[00:21] <GeminiDomino> Yeah, changed the perms but no help there
[00:22] <GeminiDomino> same messages in auth.log
[00:22] <AxD09> forum link that seems related. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1921178&page=2
[00:22] <AxD09> but you dont even get a login screen?
[00:23] <GeminiDomino> No, I get the login screen. Once I login, it flashes the Nvidia logo (so it's using the right driver) then goes black and dumps me back to the login
[00:23] <AxD09> the login screen or a tty login?
[00:23] <GeminiDomino> GDM login
[00:23] <AxD09> so infinite gdm login?
[00:24] <GeminiDomino> yeah
[00:24] <AxD09> I've had my system repeat the login once or twice before, but then it kicked out of it.
[00:24] <GeminiDomino> I've tried it up to 5. No change. :P
[00:25] <AxD09> did you try a new user account?
[00:26] <GeminiDomino> ...
[00:26] <GeminiDomino> Of course.
[00:26] <GeminiDomino> That works. Pardon me a moment. I'm going to go put my head through the wall
[00:26] <AxD09> well im no expert, just putting out randon ideas
[00:27] <GeminiDomino> Well yeah. We used up the ideas that made sense some time ago and were into the "blindly flailing" stages. :
[00:27] <GeminiDomino> :)
[00:28] <GeminiDomino> Guess I put too much faith in the installer not to screw up something as mind-meltingly complex as creating a user... <_<
[00:28] <AxD09> googling like crazy but my connection is slooow
[00:28] <AxD09> one more idea. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=9511307
[00:28] <GeminiDomino> No, you were right
[00:29] <GeminiDomino> creating a new user worked
[00:29] <GeminiDomino> so I just blew out the homedir and it's working
[00:29] <AxD09> ha, no idea. Blind fumbling...
[00:29] <GeminiDomino> I appreciate the fumbling along with me.
[00:29] <AxD09> no prob, love helping
[00:30] <GeminiDomino> Now I get to go do the actual post-install tweaking. Much obliged. Thanks
[00:30] <AxD09> good luck
[00:37] <not_found> hi all... I heard this channel is so awesome you would even be able to assist me with some Unity issues I have?
[00:37] <knome> nope. #ubuntu for unity
[00:37] <wildmanne39> hi, does anyone know how to fix this error (xfdesktop:1814): LIBDBUSMENU-GLIB-CRITICAL **: dbusmenu_server_set_root: assertion `DBUSMENU_IS_MENUITEM(root)' failed?  I googled it but it did not show anything that would help
[00:37] <not_found> knome: :( I guess I was misinformed
[00:38] <wildmanne39> not_found, lol
[00:38] <not_found> :p just messing with you all... keep up the awesome work all :)
[09:31] <jpff> Hi all: Is there a list of known problems with the gcc in 12.04?  I have codethat runs OK on otherLinux releases but is odd on xubuntu
[10:08] <GeminiDomino> Just a quick check: has the 10.04->12.04 update showed up on the update manager yet?  My VM isn't showing it and I just want to make sure nothing's buggered. :)
[10:09] <mips1911> I woudl not upgrade to 12.04, rather do a clean install.
[10:09] <hobgoblin> afaik the upgrade to 12.04 will not show until it's 12.04.1 - read it somewhere yesterday
[10:10] <hobgoblin> though that 'might' be for servers
[10:10] <GeminiDomino> hobgoblin: Makes sense.
[10:11] <GeminiDomino> On the servers, I'm doing clean installs. Figured I'd test it out on a VM I can backup, on the off chance it saves me having to re-tweak the whole damn thing. :)
[10:11] <hobgoblin> I upgraded 3 machines with no problems - though they were all 11.10 installs
[10:20] <jpff> so no one knows about compilation problems?
[10:20] <ochosi> jpff: so far i haven't encountered any, but i haven't compiled much yet in precise
[10:22] <ochosi> you might wanna wait for someone else or ask on the mailinglist
[10:22] <ochosi> that might be more efficient
[10:23] <jpff> Thanks.  Will try the mailing list
[11:16] <Carpe|Diem> HEllo everyone
[11:16] <Carpe|Diem> I'm trying to lock down my xubuntu, so that users basicaly only see a few icons on their desktop and thats it
[11:17] <Carpe|Diem> any suggestions? I tried kiosk mode but I couldn't locate the xfce4 config file
[11:27] <Carpe|Diem> there should be something like ${sysconfdir}/xdg/xfce4/kiosk/kioskrc
[11:27] <Carpe|Diem> but its not there
[11:32] <ochosi> Carpe|Diem: have you had a look at http://wiki.xfce.org/howto/kiosk_mode  yet?
[11:32] <Carpe|Diem> ochosi: yes thats where i started
[11:32] <Carpe|Diem> but that config file is not on my xubuntu box
[11:32] <ochosi> Carpe|Diem: well then if the file doesn't exist simply create it
[11:32] <Carpe|Diem> its a newly installed 12.04
[11:32] <ochosi> the instructions of how to do that are on that page
[11:32] <Carpe|Diem> that will just work?
[11:33] <ochosi> tbh i don't know because i've never used kiosk mode
[11:33] <Carpe|Diem> :]
[11:33] <ochosi> you can also try asking in #xfce btw
[11:33] <Carpe|Diem> okay
[11:33] <Carpe|Diem> well i dont even know if kiosk mode will be sufficient for me
[11:33] <ochosi> just in case you don't get anyone here who has used this before
[11:33] <Carpe|Diem> i need a completely locked down eviroment
[11:34] <ochosi> how safe?
[11:34] <Carpe|Diem> well, its gonna be a public computer that should be used to connect to my citrix farm
[11:34] <Carpe|Diem> thats all it should do
[11:34] <Carpe|Diem> i was thinking of just locking down the GUI
[11:34] <ochosi> well user-rights is one way of locking things down
[11:35] <Carpe|Diem> yes
[11:35] <ochosi> then disable all keyboard-shortcuts
[11:35] <ochosi> and only show the deskop, no panel
[11:35] <Carpe|Diem> yes thats what im trying to aim at
[11:35] <Carpe|Diem> you think xfce is able to do that?
[11:35] <Carpe|Diem> i assume it is...
[11:35] <ochosi> and configure the desktop with kiosk mode, or just change the settings of that particular user, if it's only going to be one
[11:35] <ochosi> yes, i'd say sop
[11:35] <ochosi> -p
[11:35] <Carpe|Diem> well its only going to be one yes :)
[11:36] <Carpe|Diem> well ive got trouble finding the config files of xfce4
[11:36] <Carpe|Diem> i can only find xml files
[11:36] <ochosi> then you can configure the desktop for that user via xfconf to not do anything
[11:36] <ochosi> don't edit the xml files by hand, there's the settings-editor for that
[11:37] <Carpe|Diem> oh
[11:37] <Carpe|Diem> ok
[11:37] <Carpe|Diem> was looking for keyboard shortcuts etc
[11:37] <ochosi> that's all also editable via settings-editor
[11:37] <Carpe|Diem> okay
[11:37] <ochosi> if you don't want to use the settings-manager
[11:37] <ochosi> or xfconf-query (which is the cli to settings-editor/xfconf)
[11:38] <Carpe|Diem> oh
[11:38] <Carpe|Diem> so where can i find the settings editor? is that the one I can find in the menu?
[11:38] <ochosi> in fact xfconf-query would probably be the way to go, because it's hard to lock down a user while being logged in as that user
[11:38] <Carpe|Diem> yes
[11:38] <ochosi> yup
[11:38] <Carpe|Diem> you've got a point there
[11:38] <ochosi> so you can log in via tty as that user
[11:39] <ochosi> change all the settings and test via logging into the x-session
[11:39] <Carpe|Diem> lovely
[11:39] <Carpe|Diem> i'll use that approach
[11:39] <ochosi> it could also be that for kiosk mode that you'd have to create a separate session, i'm not 100% sure
[11:39] <Carpe|Diem> Possibly, i'll have to find out :)
[11:39] <ochosi> one last hint: stay logged in with your main user in your X-session so you can check the settings you'd wanna change via cli in the settings-editor ;)
[11:40] <Carpe|Diem> oh yes
[11:40] <Carpe|Diem> good hint :)
[11:40] <Carpe|Diem> thanks very much, ochosi
[11:40] <Carpe|Diem> :)
[11:40] <ochosi> np
[12:01] <Pimo> how can i see the grub page at boot to pass some parameters? xubuntu 12.04
[12:10] <Pimo> what happens if i set GRUB_TIMEOUT=10 to 0?
[12:10] <Pimo> the boot is faster?
[12:11] <Carpe|Diem> not sure
[12:11] <Carpe|Diem> maybe 0 is unlimited
[12:11] <Carpe|Diem> set it to 1
[12:11] <Pimo> lol
[12:11] <Pimo> ok
[12:12] <Pimo> ty
[13:43] <Papa-Smurf> Hello
[13:43] <Papa-Smurf> is there any wall-paper desktop roll application like webilder for xubuntu?
[13:44] <ochosi> Papa-Smurf: what is a desktop-roll application? auto-changing desktop backgrounds?
[13:45] <Papa-Smurf> ochosi, yes that is :)
[13:45] <ochosi> Papa-Smurf: depending on how willing you are to experiment, in xfce4.10 this feature is included already
[13:45] <ochosi> Papa-Smurf: so if you install that via the dev-ppa (will be updated in a few days with xfce4.10) it should work, i haven't tested it though
[13:46] <Papa-Smurf> i'm still in Xfce4.8
[13:46] <Papa-Smurf> Xubuntu 12.04
[13:46] <ochosi> you can also write a quick script
[13:46] <ochosi> it's not very hard, you can change the wallpaper via xfconf
[13:47] <ochosi> then throw that in a cronjob and you're done
[13:47] <Papa-Smurf> yes sure :)
[13:47] <Papa-Smurf> but i would like to download some nice pictures from flirck
[13:47] <ochosi> you mean automagically?
[13:47] <Papa-Smurf> webilder does that nicely
[13:47] <Papa-Smurf> yes
[13:47] <ochosi> ah ok
[13:47] <ochosi> i thought it was just about cycling images you already have
[13:48] <ochosi> in that case i don't know :)
[13:48] <ochosi> maybe you can adjust webilder
[13:48] <Papa-Smurf> Webilder works nicely in Gnome
[13:48] <Papa-Smurf> but i haven't tested in Xfce
[13:49] <Papa-Smurf> thanks ochosi for your help
[13:49] <Papa-Smurf> :)
[13:53] <aguitel> is anyone upgrade to 4.10 with https://launchpad.net/~mrpouit/+archive/ppa   ?
[13:53]  * ochosi
[14:34] <miarf_> what's the optimal way to change dns servers? editing /etc/resolv.conf says that "don't edit by hand, changes will be overwritten"
[14:42] <aguitel> is anyone upgrade to 4.10 with https://launchpad.net/~mrpouit/+archive/ppa   ?
[14:43] <Pimo> i'm also interested at the question of aguitel
[14:44] <astraljava> You might get much more interesting answers other than [yes|no] if you had a more specific question, though.
[14:44] <aguitel> i want to know if this upgrade works
[14:57] <xubuntu433> hello. is there anyone here who could guide me to making hibernate work on 12.04? I already tried this and failed: https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/power-hibernate.html
[14:59] <holstein> xubuntu433: personally, i dont feel hibernate is worth the hassle
[14:59] <holstein> xubuntu433: takes about as much time, if not more to just shutdown and restart
[15:00] <Infy_> I'm in a dilema
[15:00] <miarf_> hmh, laptop volume control keys still don't work
[15:01] <aguitel> xubuntu433, it say:Unfortunately, hibernate doesn't work in many cases with Ubuntu, which can cause you to lose data if you expect your documents and applications to re-open when you switch your computer back on. Therefore, hibernate is disabled by default in Ubuntu 12.04.
[15:01] <Infy_> How much SWAP space should I allocate if I've got 15 gigs of HDD space, and 6GB RAM. I'm thinking under 1 GB?
[15:02] <baizon> Infy_: i got 4GB RAM and 1GB Swap and i've never seen even 1MB swap used :)
[15:02] <xubuntu433> I know about the hibernate "feature" being disabled but coming from 10.04 where hibernate works fine, I'm surprised that now it's no longer working.
[15:02] <aguitel> i think it depend of app open
[15:02] <Infy_> baizon: Same. That's why I'm pondering ATM about it :\
[15:02] <baizon> but dont know how much your using your pc
[15:02] <Infy_> I highly doubt I'll ever hit more than 6 GB ram usage TBH
[15:03] <baizon> so 500MB Swap :)
[15:03] <Infy_> Was thinking bout that, thanks
[15:03] <xubuntu433> hibernate may not be worth the hassle for some, but there are some who appreciates its convenience.
[15:03] <baizon> np
[15:04] <koegs> Infy_: you could also use swap in a file if you do not want to waste space and be more flexibel
[15:06] <Infy_> mhmm, I'll think about it, thanks. Fetching 12.04 atm, going to install later on today.
[15:06] <baizon> hmm, does xubuntu work without swap?
[15:06] <baizon> or any other distro
[15:06] <koegs> yepp
[15:07] <holstein> xubuntu433: i dont think its more convenient is my argument
[15:07] <baizon> good to know :)
[15:07] <holstein> xubuntu433: could be kernel related.. could be that you are getting used to XFCE
[15:07]  * Infy_ afk
[15:08] <baizon> xubuntu433: http://xflinux.blogspot.de/2011/01/enable-hibernate-and-suspend-in-xubuntu.html
[15:08] <baizon> that should help
[15:09] <holstein> xubuntu433: is this the same machine that 10.04 worked on?
[15:09]  * holstein has used ubuntu without swap
[15:09] <xubuntu433> holstein: yes, same machine.
[15:09] <baizon> holstein: is there a but?
[15:10] <holstein> nah... it worked fine.. i would assume if you "run out" of ram, it would be bad
[15:11] <holstein> xubuntu433: i would confirm that no bios settings, or hardware setting have been changed that would prevent hibernation
[15:11] <koegs> baizon: i am not sure but hibernate could be a problem without swap
[15:11] <baizon> koegs: i dont use hibernate :)
[15:11] <baizon> was just helping xubuntu433
[15:12] <holstein> that would be a hardware change that would prevent hibernation xubuntu433
[15:12] <koegs> baizon: my answer was related to your question ;-)
[15:12] <baizon> ok :D
[15:12] <xubuntu433> holstein: none. this is a fresh install of xubuntu, all i retained is my home partition.
[15:12] <holstein> but, if you sit down and time it, i really see no need for it... in my personal tests on several machines, hibernate takes longer than just restarting
[15:14] <miarf_> man, resizing windows by the bottom corners is nearly impossible
[15:14] <xubuntu433> for me, the best thing about hibernating is being able to resume to where you were the last time you're using the computer. Yes, it's a bit slower compared to a fresh re-start, but you don't have to re-arrange your desktop, apps, etcetera back.
[15:14] <koegs> aguitel: it seems like the xfce 4.10 ppa is not "complete"
[15:15] <aguitel> koegs, yeah
[15:16] <baizon> xubuntu433: xfce got an save session option. Im using that
[15:17] <xubuntu433> baizon, that's interesting. let me check that out.
[15:18] <jesus> buenas
[15:20] <Guest93527> buenas tardes,hay alguien por ahi para resolverme una dudilla?
[15:51] <miarf_> the broken volume control (with fn vol buttons) has be really pulling my hair out
[15:52] <aquix> broken?
[15:53] <miarf_> to begin with, the laptop volume controls move the xfce4 volume indicator
[15:53] <miarf_> but it doesn't affect actual volume
[15:53] <miarf_> in the settings editor, under xfce4-mixer, there's a property called active-card, and deleting it momentarily fixes the problem
[15:54] <miarf_> until i press the mute button a couple of times, after which the keys die again
[15:54] <miarf_> this happened with xubuntu 11.10 as well, on at the three different laptops
[15:54] <miarf_> not sure if it's a pulse/alsa mixup somewhere, or audio device (hdmi/analog)
[15:55] <miarf_> most fixes i've found do work - momentarily
[15:55] <miarf_> then again, adjusting the volume with the mouse is good enough, i suppose
[15:56] <aquix> ah, ok, because my buttons work but I get no indications on the actions. but I use cairo-dock to adjust my volume
[15:57] <aquix> in xubuntu 12.04
[15:57] <xubuntu365> salut
[15:57] <miarf_> yeah, should probably install something else myself
[15:57] <miarf_> just annoying how poorly such a basic feature works out of the box
[15:58] <aquix> but are the other (FN) buttons working?  I had problems with brightness.
[15:58] <miarf_> they work properly, as fas as I can tell
[15:58] <aquix> it's hardware, built for windows
[15:58] <miarf_> the volume control buttons do work also, in that xubuntu registers them properly
[15:59] <miarf_> since they always affect the volume indicator popup
[15:59] <miarf_> but how xubuntu interprets them beyond that is pretty chaotic
[15:59] <aquix> hmmm
[16:02] <aquix> your not alone    https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=xubuntu+fn+volume+buttons#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=xubuntu+solved+fn+volume+buttons&oq=xubuntu+solved+fn+volume+buttons&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=serp.3...12537.13683.0.138<IP_ADDRESS>.<IP_ADDRESS>.1115.0j6j1.7.0...0.0.tTt_cCzrDZs&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=b1c1f3c9dcac8c8b&biw=1366&bih=690
[16:02] <miarf_> yea
[16:03] <aquix> I can't get fn keys to work with brightness but use  commands for it in the terminal set to aliases
[16:04] <aquix> same  with disabling caps lock, but I am not sure how to, tie a command to a fn key.   I use ins to start the screensaver.
[16:07] <miarf_> i wonder how complicated it is to make the volume keys control the global volume
[16:07] <miarf_> like, universally
[16:07] <miarf_> if the actual mixer supposedly work on ~every machine if you move the slider with the mose
[16:07] <miarf_> *works
[16:24] <aquix> isn't that    XF86Audio  that are used with hotkeys?
[16:26] <aquix> well. good luck. I'm of to make dinner
[18:33] <aboudreault> hi. How can I disable the touchpad in xfce? There is no xorg.conf
[18:35] <AxD09> Did you check the mouse and touchpad section in settings?
[18:37] <webspider_> hi all
[18:43] <aboudreault> AxD09, there is no DIsable/Enable Touchpad in the settings
[18:44] <AxD09> I have a device dropbox and right below that is checkbox that says "Enable this device"
[18:56] <aboudreault> AxD09, what version?
[18:56] <AxD09> Xubuntu 12.04
[18:57] <AxD09> I remember I used to blacklist the synaptic driver in the past
[18:57] <aboudreault> I am in xubuntu 11.10
[18:57] <aboudreault> ok
[19:09] <sixpack> hi all
[19:10] <sixpack> I have a really basic question
[19:10] <sixpack> When using Thunar it will not show certain dir's
[19:11] <AxD09> hidden directories?
[19:11] <holstein> with dots? like .config ?
[19:11] <sixpack> browse to my home folder then to my username, the folder list is missing folders that have a "." in the name
[19:11] <Unit193> Ctrl+H to show them.
[19:11] <sixpack> lol ya
[19:11] <Unit193> Those are hidden folders.
[19:11] <sixpack> thanks alot! was driving me crazy
[19:12] <sixpack> had to use the go option and manually enter the folder name
[19:12] <sixpack> thanks for your help, have a great day
[19:13] <Unit193> ls -a does it too.
[19:27] <rolesp> hello all
[19:28] <rolesp> when I do sudo apt-get install amsn I get this: The amsn package is not available, but some other package references
[19:28] <rolesp> to it. This may mean that the package is missing, outdated or just
[19:28] <rolesp> available from another source
[19:28] <rolesp> E: Package "amsn" has no installation candidate
[19:29] <holstein> rolesp: i think its been removed.. if for some reason you cant find a replacement, i would go here http://www.amsn-project.net/ or find a .deb somewhere
[19:34] <rolesp> holstein, Thanks, but same thing that the Sourcecode page, only option is to build from the source package
[19:34] <holstein> rolesp: and just for the record, that *is* an option
[19:35] <holstein> rolesp: when i go here http://www.amsn-project.net/linux-downloads.php i see "ubuntu" as an option
[19:35] <rolesp> and i only found a deb package for lucid in the internet
[19:36] <holstein> rolesp: i see them for oneiric... if you are comfortable installing a .deb and removing if there are any issues, i say it wont hurt
[19:36] <holstein> if it were me, id probably just move on to a more supported and capable client
[19:38] <holstein> http://packages.debian.org/lenny/all/amsn-data/download for example
[19:38] <holstein> BUT, i would at least glance at the build instructions
[19:39] <rolesp> holstein, I am using pidgin that is instaled by defect, and i think is good, but even whit the complements installed lacks some options
[19:40] <rolesp> and the config interfase is confuse
[19:40] <holstein> "installed by default"
[19:41] <holstein> and thats literally one option, others include trying that or another .deb, or a package from oneiric, or the windows verions in wine ...let us konw whot you decide and if we can help any more :)
[19:41] <holstein> also just building as it is suggested on the site
[19:42] <holstein> rolesp: heres a PPA https://launchpad.net/~amsn-daily/+archive/ppa
[19:42] <rolesp> thanks holstein, gona try that deb package
[19:43] <rolesp> thanks again, going to add that PPA
[19:44] <hfpm> Greetings everyone
[19:44] <hfpm> i have xubuntu 12 installed
[19:45] <hfpm> and untill the moment i have not been able to install oracle java 6
[19:45] <hfpm> usually this used to be something like this
[19:45] <hfpm> sudo wget http://download.oracle.com/otn-pub/java/jdk/6u31-b04/jdk-6u31-linux-x64.bin
[19:45] <hfpm> sudo chmod +x jdk-6u31-linux-i586.bin
[19:45] <hfpm> sudo ./jdk-6u31-linux-i586.bin
[19:45] <hfpm> but i'm always getting the following errors
[19:46] <hfpm> ./jdk-6u31-linux-x64.bin: 1: ./jdk-6u31-linux-x64.bin: cannot open html: No such file
[19:46] <hfpm> ./jdk-6u31-linux-x64.bin: 2: ./jdk-6u31-linux-x64.bin: cannot open head: No such file
[19:46] <hfpm> ./jdk-6u31-linux-x64.bin: 3: ./jdk-6u31-linux-x64.bin: cannot open title: No such file
[19:46] <hfpm> and so on
[19:46] <hfpm> any hints???
[19:47] <hfpm> (sorry fo mistaking the package name)
[19:47] <hfpm> it is always jdk-6u31-linux-x64.bin
[19:48] <holstein> hfpm: i would confirm those paths
[19:49] <holstein> hfpm: i would reference https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Java
[19:49] <holstein> i would use tab complete in the terminal to complete the path
[19:49] <Pici> hfpm: You can't download things from oracle's website like that.
[19:51] <Pici> hfpm: I bet if you looked at that bin file you have, you'd find that its just an html document.
[19:51] <hfpm> holstein, looking at the site you referred
[19:51] <hfpm> the procedure which is described
[19:51] <hfpm> is:
[19:51] <hfpm>  wget http://download.oracle.com/otn-pub/java/jdk/6u31-b04/jdk-6u31-linux-i586.bin
[19:51] <hfpm>  $ chmod u+x jdk-6u31-linux-i586.bin
[19:51] <hfpm>  $ ./jdk-6u31-linux-i586.bin
[19:52] <hfpm> more or less the same procedure what i'm doing
[19:52] <Pici> Open that link yourself in your browser.
[19:52] <rolesp> This PPA is signed. You may want to add the corresponding GPG key to your apt keyring:
[19:53] <rolesp> what do I do to add the key?
[19:56] <hfpm> ok pici
[19:56] <hfpm> it seems that i have somehow a wrong link
[19:56] <Pici> !gpgerr | rolesp
[19:57] <hfpm> i will check further
[19:57] <hfpm> thanks
[19:58] <rolesp> thanks Pici
[19:59] <Pici> np
[20:06] <xubuntu814> Hello?
[20:07] <xubuntu814> hello
[20:07] <xubuntu814> hello world
[20:07] <knome> hello.
[20:07] <xubuntu814> hi
[20:08] <xubuntu814> how can I install xubuntu on my laptop if it doesnt have a cd drive?
[20:09] <knome> you can install via usb drive
[20:09] <xubuntu814> would i always have to run xubuntu from the usb drive?
[20:10] <knome> no, you can install from the usb drive
[20:10] <xubuntu814> ok, I will try that, thanks m8
[20:10] <knome> no problem
[20:21] <MrMkS> Hello
[20:21] <taskb4r> Hellp
[20:21] <MrMkS> How i can become a Official Xubuntu Mirror ?
[20:21] <taskb4r> Hello*
[20:21] <MrMkS> Im already have a Ubuntu Official Mirror
[20:21] <knome> MrMkS, i'd advise you to turn to #xubuntu-devel, so i can tell you that we need to investigate ;)
[20:21] <knome> MrMkS, you're the one sending the email to the mailing list?
[20:23] <single> Hi,   like it could put to the windows of xubuntu great buttons without having to change the manager of windows that it has by defect?
[20:24] <knome> single, can you please try to rephrase? that doesn't make any sense
[20:25] <SATop> hi, my mousepointer freezes sometimes in xubuntu 12.04 when i logoff i can move the mouse again in the login screen
[20:25] <single> ok i want big buttons in the windows of xubuntu
[20:26] <single> ppp size font dont work
[20:27] <single> in xubuntu  for the big buttons
[20:27] <knome> single, big buttons - where?
[20:27] <knome> single, in the window borders?
[20:28] <single> in the windows of xubuntu like mozilla or another apps
[20:28] <SATop> single do you mean the window manager buttons ? for minimize maximize close ?
[20:28] <knome> single, if i understand you correctly, the answer is that it is not possible
[20:29] <knome> SATop, wait... when you log off, but you can use it again in the login screen - so what's the problem? :)
[20:29] <single> yeah are the buttons of minimize maximize and close are very small for my eyes in xubuntu
[20:29] <knome> single, at the moment, there's no other option than use another theme
[20:30] <SATop> knome well i dont want to log off and loose my work or do a lot of work with keyboard to save all things and logoff and login again
[20:31] <knome> SATop, right - so the freeze happens *before* you log out ?
[20:31] <single> where is there a theme with buttons for xubuntu without use gtk only xfwm
[20:31] <single> ?
[20:31] <SATop> yes it happens randomly when working in xubuntu
[20:31] <knome> single, xubuntu will use a gtk theme anyway.
[20:31] <single> with big buttons?
[20:32] <knome> single, there should be some hicolor-themes installed
[20:32] <knome> single, those will have bigger buttons too
[20:32] <SATop> single you can maybe make your own theme or edit a theme and change the sizes ?
[20:33] <single>  my xubuntu 12.04  hasnt themes with big buttons
[20:33] <knome> wait - i mixed up gtk and xfwm themes. i'm not sure if there is any xfwm themes with *particularly* big buttons
[20:33] <SATop> xfce-look.org has lots of themes
[20:33] <single> themes for the windows in xfwm
[20:34] <knome> single, i suppose the only way to go is to create your own theme at the moment
[20:36] <SATop> knome is there a way to restart the "mouse" in the terminal ?
[20:37] <knome> SATop, i don't know
[20:37] <SATop> ok
[20:37] <knome> have you filed a bug?
[20:38] <SATop> i dont know if it is a real bug
[20:38] <single_> knome could you give me the link of a theme with big buttons for xubuntu xfwm?
[20:38] <knome> single_, as i said, i suppose the only way is to create your own theme at the moment
[20:38] <SATop> knome in 11.10 i had no problems i dont know exactly what changed in the touchpad area in 12.04
[20:38] <knome> SATop, i'd file a bug, give any logs some developers ask for, and see if it's a real bug :)
[20:39] <SATop> ok knome
[20:39] <SATop> single i know of a big theme but i have to search for it if it is still available
[20:39] <knome> SATop, there's a new dialog for mouse/touchpad in 12.10
[20:39] <knome> SATop, see settings manager -> mouse and touchpad
[20:40] <knome> SATop, i don't know if that helps, but...
[20:40] <SATop> yes i looked into that but changing settings or switching of and on didnt help
[20:41] <single_> ok but is very bad for my eyes use a theme with buttons so shorts
[20:42] <single_> in xubuntu
[20:48] <rolesp> SATop, maybe selecting mouse emulation in accesability can help
[20:48] <SATop> how can that help me ?
[20:50] <SATop> is that managing the mousepointer with the numerical keyboard ?
[20:50] <rolesp> I think so
[20:52] <SATop> well i am on a netbook and the numerical keys are hidden behind the FN-key so i dont think that it will work very comfortably
[20:52] <aguitel> how enable mouse and touchpad with command line ?
[20:53] <SATop> yes aguitel yes rather restart it
[20:53] <knome> aguitel, xfce4-mouse-settings
[20:54] <Infy_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAc6vc93jxc
[20:57] <singlerr> i wanted use openbox in xubuntu but i dont know install it
[20:58] <genii-around> !info openbox
[20:59] <Unit193> You could also build from the !mini iso.
[20:59] <singlerr> what is mini iso???
[21:00]  * genii-around makes more coffee
[21:00] <genii-around> singlerr: It's a minimal base version of ubuntu, to which you can add manually only the packages you want, to make a lighter overall system
[21:01] <Unit193> Or more customized.
[21:02] <singlerr> ok but i dont want mor difficult level for me in xubuntu
[21:02] <singlerr> i dont want more...
[21:02] <Infy_> mini-iso = alternate install?
[21:03] <knome> Infy_, nope
[21:03] <knome> !mini
[21:03] <Infy_> Ahh, thank you
[21:04] <singlerr> ok but i dont want to install  another time my distro of xubuntu
[21:05] <knome> singlerr, 'sudo apt-get install openbox' will install openbox, but please note it is not supported in #xubuntu
[21:07] <singlerr> i had installed openbox in xubuntu but dont work , the system report error with open box
[21:07] <genii-around> singlerr: Did you first do: sudo apt-get update       ?
[21:08] <Unit193> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?s=0cbce80f64253386cd42c42f6b3eb01f&p=10950331&postcount=8 That's one way to get it setup.
[21:08] <singlerr> yeah xubuntu say me : you dont have four desktops or similar when i installed openbox
[21:11] <knome> singlerr, is english your native language?
[21:12] <SATop> reboot
[21:12] <Elchzard> Under SEH Team
[21:12] <knome> Elchzard, excuse me?
[21:13] <Unit193> Crosspost 3 chans.
[21:13] <singlerr> knome no
[21:13] <knome> Elchzard, okay, stop advertising *now*.
[21:15] <Elchzard> knome, my client not me!
[21:15] <Elchzard> erghghgh
[21:16]  * Elchzard remembers not to DCC using this XChat
[21:16] <knome> Elchzard, then change the client. you are responsible what your client is doing
[21:17] <singlerr> the size  parameters of the windows can be modified in xubuntun from a file?
[21:18] <knome> singlerr, is english your native language?
[21:18] <singlerr> no never
[21:18] <singlerr> never was
[21:18] <knome> singlerr, then what is?
[21:19] <singlerr> my native language is the second language more used in the world
[21:19] <knome> singlerr, i don't want riddles, i'm trying to help you
[21:19] <singlerr> knome
[21:20] <singlerr> my native language is es -es or sp sp
[21:21] <singlerr> knome
[21:21] <knome> !es | singlerr
[21:21] <knome> singlerr, maybe you'd get better responses there?
[21:23] <singlerr> no  xubuntu-es hasnt many users
[21:23] <singlerr> knome
[21:23] <knome> singlerr, try #ubuntu-es, they will be able to help on xubuntu-issues too
[21:24] <singlerr> no because mv4 always put me a ban in ubuntu-es
[21:25] <knome> singlerr, in that case, go to #ubuntu-ops and resolve the ban
[21:26] <singlerr> no in ops must be much worse yet
[21:26] <singlerr> knome
[21:27] <knome> singlerr, you are not making any sense to me with your questions - i point you to a channel with your native language where you are banned - please resolve your ban
[21:29] <singlerr> im sorry but i need a miracle not resolve my ban
[21:29] <singlerr> knome
[21:32] <crond> singlerr, I suspect more people in the world speak chinese than spanish.
[21:33] <knome> crond, if you wish to talk about languages, feel free to do so in #xubuntu-offtopic
[21:34] <crond> knome, never, I will discuss python *here*
[21:34] <crond> :P
[21:34] <singlerr> crond ok but in the world ? in how many countries speak chinese?
[21:35] <knome> singlerr, take it to #xubuntu-offtopic.
[21:38] <singlerr> well i had solution to my  question , i go to the bed and see you tomorrow
[21:53] <SATop> i found a BIG xfwm theme it is called "Touchscreen theme for WeTab" on xfce-look.org for mister single if he returns here
[21:53] <sixpack> anyone know a good instant messenger that works with file transfers with windows users?
[21:54] <Unit193> I *think* pidgin does, but it'd depend more on the protocol used.
[21:54] <sixpack> I use Pidin and ya it does work for some and receiving.. but not msn or sending to yahoo users
[21:55] <sixpack> have you heard anything about aMSN
[21:56] <sixpack> I use trillian on windows but I havent been able to get it to run even under wine
[21:57] <sixpack> I guess I could run a virtual machine but that seems a bit drastic
[21:57] <Unit193> aMSN was removed from the repo, there's Empathy?
[21:57] <sixpack> hmm is that the default one in the main ubuntu install?
[21:57] <SATop> emesene is a msn-messenger
[21:58] <sixpack> I heard good things about it but havent tried it yet
[21:58] <SATop> it looks good and works well
[21:59] <sixpack> emesene? never heard of it thanks will take a look
[22:20] <rolesp> bbl


[01:39] <snap-l> I love that Banshee has problems doing things like... oh... seeking in a track
[01:41] <rick_h_> http://paperjs.org/about/ snap-l this is what I've been saying that we're waiting for
[01:42] <snap-l> Yeah, that's awesome
[01:50] <Milyardo><PHONE_NUMBER>9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[01:51] <snap-l> ++
[02:01] <rick_h_> umm what?
[02:02] <rick_h_> geeze, I wonder if this internet here is even 1.5mb
[03:19]  * greg-g returns home from vacation
[03:19] <greg-g> and holy email batman
[03:20] <rick_h_> lol
[03:20] <rick_h_> where did you end up going?
[03:21] <greg-g> black lake, up north, exit 310 off of I-75, about an hour east of there
[03:21] <greg-g> no internet nor cell phone (at least sprint, seemed verizon got service)
[03:21] <brousch> sprint sux
[03:22] <rick_h_> greg-g: awesome, good trails?
[03:23] <snap-l> I don't understand why bands license their albums per track on Bandcamp
[03:24] <rick_h_> per track?! seems strange
[03:24] <snap-l> This one album has the first track as (C), and the other as BY-NC-SA
[03:28] <snap-l> That's OK; you all get exposed to my original plan. ;)
[03:28] <snap-l> muhahahaha
[03:31] <gppl> I need a quick program to crop a picture.
[03:32] <snap-l> If you can figure it out, Imagemagick should do the trick
[03:32] <snap-l> http://www.imagemagick.org/Usage/crop/
[03:35] <greg-g> rick_h_: actually, no hiking, this was a family thing, carrie's stepdad's 60th
[03:35] <greg-g> july 11th-15th will be hiking (or something)
[03:35] <greg-g> and now, bed
[03:35] <greg-g> zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[04:10] <Milyardo> o_O
[04:10] <Milyardo> Who's pasting stuff in my console
[12:55] <snap-l> Good morning
[13:10] <greg-g> hey-o
[13:11] <_stink_> morning
[13:14] <Wolfger> paty
[13:15] <Wolfger> party, even
[13:18] <brousch> helz yeah. i have the kindle reader on my nook color
[13:24] <snap-l> God, Musicbrainz makes me batty
[13:25] <snap-l> http://musicbrainz.org/edit/14708020
[13:25] <snap-l> Frankly, I just want my CDs ripped
[13:25] <brousch> oh awesome. all of my droid apps are being shoved onto the nook color now
[13:56] <Wolfger> Middle image. Pure awesome. http://www.teefury.com/images/articles/1303864045_4069-Nicholas_J_Seluk-9397.jpg
[14:15] <brousch> ohyeahbaby. i can click an epub in my dropbox and it opens using the nook reader
[14:16] <brousch> don't even have to copy files over manually any more
[14:37] <nullspace> hello alls
[14:39] <snap-l> Howdy
[14:39] <snap-l> Long time no see
[14:42] <nullspace> glad to be back
[14:43] <nullspace> I'm just running on my localmachine so I'm not presistant
[14:44] <snap-l> 's OK.
[14:50] <nullspace> restarting after update
[15:06] <Wolfger> Hey nullspace, welcome back
[15:12] <_stink_> wb, nullspace
[15:12] <rick_h__> _stink_: http://goo.gl/iIaFX
[15:13] <rick_h__> funny too, putting hime to work: http://goo.gl/0RSbx
[15:13] <_stink_> rick_h__: hah, i like the dad/son Bears shirts
[15:14] <rick_h__> oh yea, did that for when grandpa came over
[15:14] <rick_h__> have to work hard to raise the boy right
[15:15] <_stink_> rick_h__: how did he handle the drive?  you guys do overnight again?
[15:16] <rick_h__> yea, overnight ftw
[15:16] <rick_h__> he woke up a couple of times
[15:16] <rick_h__> mainly when we stopped
[15:16] <rick_h__> and the last 30min we were getting a strong "all done" signs thrown our way
[15:16] <rick_h__> so the 11/12hr is right on the limit I think
[15:17] <snap-l> Man, I'm not happy that Bank of America took away the OFX import
[15:17] <snap-l> er, export
[15:17] <rick_h__> oops
[15:17] <snap-l> "/msg -freenode nickserv NOTE:Exclusive use of Active Statement and WEB Connect downloads should help prevent duplicate transactions from being downloaded. "
[15:17] <snap-l> NOTE:Exclusive use of Active Statement and WEB Connect downloads should help prevent duplicate transactions from being downloaded.
[15:18] <snap-l> Except that MoneyDance doesn't support WEBConnect, and every other format is just a damn QIF which doesn't handle dupes
[15:26] <Wolfger> blargh
[15:26] <Wolfger> I have to write a Scope Statement.
[15:27] <Wolfger> I was given a sample. The first section is the Executive Summary. I read it (for the project we are now finishing up) and it confused me and made my head hurt.
[15:28] <Wolfger> If you are reading a summary of the scope of work for something you're damned near done with (i.e. intimately familiar with) and it confuses you and makes your head hurt.... something's wrong.
[15:29] <Wolfger> So do I write a similar Executive Summary that uses lots of big managerial words without saying much at all, or to I just write a plain English statement of what the project is about? :-p
[15:30] <Wolfger> I know which I prefer, and I'm pretty sure that will get a negative reaction.
[15:30] <_stink_> do it in iambic pentameter?
[15:34] <Wolfger> Oh, excellent idea!
[15:34] <Wolfger> Except I hate writing iambic pentameter.
[15:34] <Wolfger> Do you think they'd notice if I did each section as a limerick or haiku?
[15:35]  * Wolfger is suddenly excited about writing a Scope of Work statement, and that's just wrong.
[16:21] <snap-l> I love the interpretation of REST on this project
[16:21] <snap-l> essentially, it's XML sent via POST
[16:21] <rick_h__> doesn't that count?
[16:21] <snap-l> (rolls eyes)
[16:21] <rick_h__> :P
[16:22]  * rick_h__ tries to PUT to snap-l's api
[16:22] <snap-l> pardon me while I contain my excitement
[16:28] <Wolfger> You're pardoned
[16:30] <brousch> wow. nautilus is using 800MB of RAM and it's not even open!
[16:30] <snap-l> Don't use top to figure out memory leaks
[16:30] <snap-l> nautilus may be using shared resources
[16:31] <snap-l> That said, I think you have a legit complaint.
[16:31] <brousch> well something's using a ton of ram, and i don't have anything abnormal open
[16:31] <snap-l> brousch: Is it going to swap?
[16:31] <snap-l> and how much is resident?
[16:32] <brousch> not swapping yet
[16:33] <snap-l> laptop, or desktop?
[16:33] <snap-l> and are you using Virtualbox?
[16:33] <snap-l> also, boxers or briefs?
[16:33] <brousch> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/101667/Naughty%20Nautilus.png
[16:34] <brousch> no, it's native install
[16:34] <brousch> boxers
[16:35] <snap-l> Hmmm...
[16:35] <brousch> i don't event remember asking nautilus to do anything intense lately
[16:35] <brousch> like viewing a folder of 10,000 photos and thumbnails
[16:36] <snap-l> Can try killing it, and see if it balloons back up
[16:36] <jrwren> only 10,000? it can't handle that? what a piece of junk.
[16:36] <snap-l> sudo strace -p [process_id_of_nautilus]
[16:36] <snap-l> can see what it's doing
[16:41] <brousch> yeah, that's helpful
[16:41] <brousch> NOT
[16:41] <brousch> i killed it
[16:42] <snap-l> and?
[16:42] <brousch> it is better now
[16:43] <snap-l> Wonder what caused it pain
[16:43] <snap-l> You might want to keep an eye on it
[17:20] <snap-l> I really wish Wordpress supported PostgreSQL out of the box
[17:54] <brousch> mysql is just as good as postgres
[18:04]  * Wolfger cringes
[18:05] <Wolfger> I guess rick_h__ is not paying attention....
[18:08] <brousch> trolling's no fun if no one bites
[18:49] <snap-l> OK, this is a first
[18:50] <snap-l> completel freezeof my Windows machine
[18:50] <brousch> snap-l: eh? did you just turn it on for the first time?
[18:50] <snap-l> Har har
[18:50] <Wolfger> :-)
[18:51] <snap-l> no, usually if Windows crashes, it's like a wall coming crumbling down
[18:51] <snap-l> Really acting weird today
[18:51] <snap-l> Had one instance where it dropped the tunnel because of no activity
[18:54] <brousch> google+ will destroy facebook http://www.google.com/+/learnmore/
[18:55] <snap-l> I love how these things are closed betas
[18:56] <Wolfger> Heheheh
[18:56] <brousch> you know you want in
[18:56] <jjesse> i think they want to try and recreate the scarcity of gmail invites
[18:56] <Wolfger> I want it to be open beta.
[19:04] <brousch> raging brainer
[19:05] <devinheitmueller> Hey guys.  So I am in the process of building a REST/JSON API for a service, and am concerned about API documentation.  Anybody know of any good tools for this sort of thing?
[19:05] <snap-l> I wonder if there's a way to speed up Ubuntu One using rsync
[19:06] <devinheitmueller> .... and no, I believe the whole notion that "REST is self-describing" is a load of BS...
[19:06] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: I totally agree with you there.
[19:07] <devinheitmueller> I know the API is going to have to be maintained, and I want strict controls to track changes over time and version the API.  This means being able to detect newly added fields and note that documentation is required.
[19:07] <devinheitmueller> Looking at lots of other publishers of REST APIs, it seems that almost everybody is doing it by hand via a Wiki, and nobody ever actually versions their API since they apparently don't care about backward compatibility.
[19:08] <brousch> backwards is for shmucks. go boldly forward! don't look back!
[19:08] <Wolfger> LOL
[19:08] <devinheitmueller> If this were SOAP, this is the sort of stuff I would be doing with WSDL, but there isn't really an equivalent for REST/JSON.
[19:08] <devinheitmueller> heh
[19:09] <snap-l> There's a WADL file
[19:09] <snap-l> it brings the horrors of SOAP to REST
[19:09] <devinheitmueller> Yeah, WADL seems like a pretty half-baked solution.
[19:09] <devinheitmueller> And the W3C basically is giving no backing to WADL since WSDL 2.0 presumably accomplishes the same thing (but has no support for JSON as opposed to XML)
[19:10] <snap-l> Yeah, we're implementing WADL for our REST which is essentially the same shit as our SOAP interface, just without the SOAP bit
[19:11] <devinheitmueller> Also, there seems to be a real dearth of tools which actually support WADL, so having a formal interface description is not very useful if there are no tools which can use it.
[19:14] <devinheitmueller> The SPORE stuff looked not too bad, but again, it's got almost no widespread implementation and it's client side only (unlike WSDL where you can use it for both clients and on the server to validate input requests)
[19:14] <snap-l> Yeah, I'm not terribly familiar with what's the bet practices for REST
[19:15] <snap-l> AFAICT, it's the reaction to the strictness of SOAP
[19:15] <devinheitmueller> It's because SOAP is a b**ch to implement, and all of the implementations for various languages are of spotty quality and inconsistent.
[19:16] <devinheitmueller> Unfortunately, I can easily say the same thing about XML, where under Perl there are about ten different parsers out there, none of which are available by default with the distro.
[19:16] <Wolfger> snap-l: What are you saying? REST is to SOAP as Perl is to Java?
[19:16] <snap-l> No argument here. :)
[19:16] <snap-l> Wolfger: REST is to SOAP as Ruby is to Java
[19:18] <devinheitmueller> I'm having similar challenges with JSON schema.  There is only one really solid/complete implementation, and it's written in JavaScript.
[19:21] <snap-l> If you're looking for consistency, you should be looking at SOAP
[19:22] <snap-l> frankly, REST / JSON are more cowboy tools
[19:22] <devinheitmueller> If SOAP::Lite wasn't such crap, and if people didn't need a C compiler to build all the alternatives, I would seriously consider SOAP.
[19:22] <snap-l> Python's SOAP library is quite nice
[19:23] <devinheitmueller> Nobody in the real world uses Python.
[19:23] <devinheitmueller> ;-)
[19:23] <snap-l> If you really cared about SOAP Implemetations, you'd be using Java. ;)
[19:24] <snap-l> And yes, I tried using SOAP::Lite. Writing XML by hand was less painful
[19:24] <snap-l> couldn't figure out what problem it was solving, because it wasn't solving any problem I had.
[19:24] <devinheitmueller> Well, I don't really care what language the customers use to communicate with my server.  It just needs to not be seriously braindamaged and/or have dozens of dependencies.
[19:25] <devinheitmueller> Generally speaking though, most of the people who want to talk to my systems are "scripting people" like sysadmins, so Java is not really a common language of choice for that audience.
[19:26] <snap-l> Just use RPC and get over with it. ;)
[19:26] <snap-l> Who cares about the baby anyway?
[19:27] <devinheitmueller> I used SOAP::Lite a few years back.  I did get it to work, but it was slow, carried dozens of CPAN module dependencies, and was a PITA to get the requests properly formatted.  Oh, and no WSDL support.
[19:27] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: It's not gotten any better since then
[19:27] <devinheitmueller> Oh, and SOAP::Lite's serializers would "guess" the data types based on the data, so you could end up with malformed requests if sending what is supposed to be a "string" containing "1234".
[19:28] <brousch> Nobody in the real world uses Perl
[19:28] <snap-l> Now now, all God's languages gotta get along
[19:28] <devinheitmueller> I was kind of hoping that because REST is so much simpler, and in theory has more widespread language support that this would make it easier to provide an API that can be consumed by sysadmins.
[19:29] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: And it is, but it's not self-documenting, nor is it as rigorously defined as SOAP
[19:29] <Wolfger> snap-l: what about the devil's languages?
[19:30] <snap-l> Wolfger: they all have the word "Visual" prepended.
[19:30] <devinheitmueller> I cannot provide a solution that can only be consumed by Windows platforms.
[19:31] <brousch> Mono
[19:31] <Wolfger> snap-l: so ASP.Net is one of god's languages? O_o
[19:31] <snap-l> Wolfger: Don't be daft
[19:31] <Wolfger> ;-)
[19:32] <devinheitmueller> In 2011 I would have assumed that it would be relatively easy to find an API mechanism which 1) doesn't have a zillion dependencies, 2) is widely available across a variety of languages, 3) allows some mechanism for versioning and documentation, and 4) allows for data-driven validation of requests/responses.
[19:32] <snap-l> brousch: Mono is the reformation
[19:32] <Wolfger> ASP... Python... languages of the snake!
[19:33] <devinheitmueller> To quote Saul, "Asps, very dangerous..."
[19:33] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: there's three problems. 1) W 2) W 3) W (and add a C for good measure).
[19:34] <snap-l> Honestly, the W3C is like the anti-ANSI.
[19:34] <Wolfger> I never thought it was that bad...
[19:34] <snap-l> (not that ANSI is a standard I'd want to wish on anyone)
[19:34] <devinheitmueller> snap-l: note, at no point did I even mention "conforms to standards" in that list.
[19:34] <Wolfger> then again, I haven't paid attn to W3C since the early 90's
[19:35] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: Correct, but SOAP got turned into shit by W3C, and REST is not far behind.
[19:35] <brousch> doesn't everyone use json these days?
[19:35] <snap-l> brousch: See above on why JSON has trouble
[19:35] <devinheitmueller> snap-l: Ok, that part I won't disagree with.
[19:36] <Wolfger> So... Let me get this straight:
[19:36] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: And yes, it's harder than it should be to send over a string from one server to another and have it still retain stringness
[19:36] <snap-l> or integer to retain integerness
[19:37] <Wolfger> There's nothing usable out there, and nobody is doing anything to correct that situation?
[19:37] <snap-l> Wolfger: Well, there are solutions, but Perl has poor implementations
[19:37] <snap-l> Soap::Lite being rather egregiously bad
[19:38] <snap-l> and the other SOAP modules for Perl requiring CPAN-hell and support C code
[19:38] <devinheitmueller> If the implementation can parse WSDL, it will know exactly what the expected datatypes are.  Using auto-detection of datatypes based on the underlying data is just crappy.
[19:39] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: And using Perl's auto-detection on top of it.
[19:40] <snap-l> though Perl should know the difference between a number and a string
[19:40] <snap-l> likely, under Soap::Lite, everything is a string
[19:40] <snap-l> which pretty much defeats the whole purpose for SOAP
[19:43] <Wolfger> well, under Perl, if you use 1234 like it's a number, it's a number, and if you use it like a string, it's a string. If SOAP::Lite has found a way to subvert that, I'm puzzled and impressed.
[19:44] <Wolfger> or possibly just not understanding the situation
[19:44] <jrwren> still on soap?
[19:45] <snap-l> Y'know, sometimes I wish this company had chat rooms
[19:46] <jjesse> aren't enterprise chat the whole Salesforce CHatter thing?
[19:46] <jrwren> campfire
[19:46] <snap-l> instead of watching e-mail threads with one line responses:  "SoapUI" (and the rest of the thread quoted, for good measure, including a 400KB image)
[19:46] <snap-l> Well, this is cross-company
[19:46] <snap-l> Campfire might work, but there's the problem of keeping folks using it.
[19:47] <snap-l> I'd like to teach the world to use a fucking Jabber server.
[19:47] <Milyardo> ^
[19:47] <snap-l> (sung to "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony"
[19:53] <Milyardo> don't many XMLRPC libraries implement some sort of refelction in langanges that support it
[19:53] <Milyardo> I know Apache's java xmlrpc library does
[19:54] <Milyardo> While reflection is not quite the same a WSDL it could satisfy the need for documentation
[19:55] <Milyardo> actaully I guess WSDLs are a form of reflection
[20:05] <devinheitmueller> sorry, went afk.
[20:05] <greg-g> https://twitter.com/#!/sandyarmstrong/statuses/85784278901854208  [OH on Google+ "I just noticed that your 'Epic Bros' circle looks a lot like my 'Douchebags' circle"]
[20:05] <devinheitmueller> Wolfger: SOAP requires you to specify the types in the SOAP request, and the SOAP::Lite client guesses what type to specify based on the actual data in the scaler field.
[20:06] <greg-g> oops, people are actually talking productively in here
[20:11] <brousch> well we were
[20:12] <devinheitmueller> Unfortunately, this conversation has only convinced me that this stuff is all indeed royally screwed up and I haven't missed something obvious.
[20:16] <jrwren> sandy is cool
[20:56] <brousch> rick_h__ snap-l My PyOhio talk has been accepted. I'm officially on the hook now
[20:58] <snap-l> Awesomeness!
[21:21] <binbrain> brousch: whats your talk on?
[21:22] <brousch> snap-l named it
[21:22] <brousch> Django and google App engine, Why I'm using Flask and EC2
[21:22] <binbrain> whatever it is, you should change it last min to "The Power of MySQL w/Python"
[21:22] <binbrain> ahh, cool
[21:23] <binbrain> why are you using Flask :)
[21:24] <brousch> Simple to learn, modular, easy to use on many platforms (private server, EC2, GAE, Dreamhost)
[21:25] <brousch> I think it's a great framework for learning how to use frameworks
[21:25] <binbrain> cool


[00:03] <spm> yo
[00:03] <spm> lifeless: we aren't yet. mb was unable to get to it; I've been fixing a few reds.
[00:08] <spm> lifeless: any idea where https://dev.launchpad.net/PolicyAndProcess/ReleaseManagerRotation went? had a bunch of things we refer to on it.
[00:09] <lifeless> spm: we got rid of it, no more rm
[00:09] <lifeless> spm: this was announced
[00:09] <spm> i see
[00:10] <lifeless> what are you looking for ?
[00:10] <poolie> huwshimi: also i was quite curious about your thoughts on bug 800361
[00:10] <_mup_> Bug #800361: The consequences of choose an item in a picker is not obvious <javascript> <ui> <Launchpad itself:Triaged by jcsackett> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/800361 >
[00:10] <poolie>  - whether you agree with me; also whether you perhaps have some more alternatives
[00:11] <huwshimi> poolie: Thanks, I'll take a look and comment
[00:12] <poolie> ta
[00:50] <wgrant> lifeless: Ah, so we *are* going for tiny DB patches now.
[00:50] <wgrant> lifeless: I was discouraged last week from optimising below a couple of minutes :(
[00:56] <lifeless> wgrant: yes, this has gone from discussion to action
[01:06] <wallyworld_> wgrant: bug 809651 filed
[01:06] <_mup_> Bug #809651: Person picker link text is confusing <confusing-ui> <picker> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/809651 >
[01:08] <wgrant> wallyworld_: Ah, thanks!
[01:09] <wallyworld_> wgrant: any opinion on what the default "Remove" text should be. I think it needs to be two words (I don't like just "Remove"). "Remove xxx" where xxx=?
[01:10] <wallyworld_> maybe huwshimi has an opinion :-)
[01:13] <huwshimi> wallyworld_: Is there a problem with "Assign me" and "Remove assignee"?
[01:14] <wallyworld_> huwshimi: they only really make sense in the context of assigning to bugs. what about other times were a person is chosen eg security contact for a project
[01:14] <wallyworld_> or perhaps that terminology is acceptable everywhere?
[01:15] <huwshimi> wallyworld_: Ah I see
[01:15] <wallyworld_> the default text for "assigning" is currently "Pick me"
[01:15] <wallyworld_> but the case is wrong and needs changing, it is "Pick Me" and need sto change to "Pick me"
[01:16] <huwshimi> wallyworld_: Are we able to customise for each case (team/person etc.)
[01:16] <wallyworld_> not at the moment - that would require extra code
[01:17] <wallyworld_> hence the current "Remove person" is wrong sometimes :-(
[01:17] <huwshimi> wallyworld_: Hmmm... ok
[01:17] <huwshimi> wallyworld_: What's wrong with extra code?
[01:17] <wallyworld_> but if the desire is to have "Remove person" and "Remove team" depending on whether the current value is a person or team we could do that i'm sure
[01:18] <wallyworld_> huwshimi: nothing wrong, just saying we don't currently support it in the current implementation
[01:18] <wallyworld_> huwshimi: so "Remove person" and "Remove team" would be ok?
[01:18] <huwshimi> wallyworld_: To me that makes the most sense
[01:19] <huwshimi> wallyworld_: I would talk to mrevell as well though as this is his area
[01:20] <wallyworld_> huwshimi: ok. i think it makes sense too. i'll look at doing something assuming we will go ahead. feel free to comment on the bug if you decide something after talking
[01:20] <wallyworld_> oh, i can ask him too
[01:20] <wallyworld_> s/too/instead
[01:22]  * wallyworld_ hates qastaging timeouts occuring *every* time a link is clicked :-(
[01:23] <lifeless> wallyworld_: means there is slow code there
[01:23] <wallyworld_> lifeless: but even qastaging.lp.net itself just timedout
[01:23] <lifeless> exactly my point
[01:23] <wallyworld_> it happens all the time, for just about any page
[01:24] <wallyworld_> surely *all* of lp pages are not slow
[01:24] <wallyworld_> the same pages work fine on lp.net
[01:24] <lifeless> 87 queries/external actions issued in 2.10 seconds - hot qa.l.n
[01:25] <lifeless> actually, medium, 0.26 hot hot
[01:25] <lifeless> still -slow-
[01:25] <wallyworld_> i got this after initially timing out and hitting refresh: 98 queries/external actions issued in 8.25 seconds
[01:25] <lifeless> yup, slow
[01:25] <lifeless> -way- too many queries
[01:25] <wallyworld_> but the figures are waaay less on lp.net
[01:26] <lifeless> yes, it has a 128GB disk cache
[01:26] <wallyworld_> not the query count, the execution time
[01:26] <wallyworld_> so you saying the only reason lp.net even runs is the huge cache?
[01:26] <lifeless> yup
[01:26] <wallyworld_> :-(
[01:38] <lifeless> wallyworld_: sorry, I was OTP before
[01:38] <lifeless> wallyworld_: LP is broadly inefficient, we are getting better.
[01:38] <lifeless> wallyworld_: an efficient frontpage would be 4 queries + a memcache lookup for the blog posts
[01:39] <lifeless> wallyworld_: we are doing *twenty times* that work.
[01:40] <lifeless> wallyworld_: qastaging has 32GB of ram shared between *three* LP db instances, each of which is 300GB in size
[01:43] <StevenK> Are we are are we not still in RC?
[01:43] <lifeless> we should be out of rc
[01:45] <wgrant> I don't believe we are.
[01:54] <StevenK> Can't stop using 'utilities/ec2 land', but to check on my instances I run 'bin/ec2 ls'
[01:54] <StevenK> I'd drop the symlink, but I suspect I'd get lynched.
[01:55] <lifeless> are there docs on creating lazr projects anywhere ?
[01:56] <wgrant> lifeless: Why, so you can delete them? :)
[01:57] <lifeless> fold-in :)
[01:58] <wgrant> wallyworld_: Did you intend to delete a couple of dozen JS test?
[01:58] <wallyworld_> wgrant: yes, they were duplicated
[01:58] <lifeless> flacoste: huh, we missed some lazr components in the move to lp - smptptest, publisher, authentication amongst others, I think
[01:58] <wallyworld_> they were moved and a rollback put them back to the original place
[01:58] <wgrant> Ah, great.
[01:59] <wgrant> lifeless: At least publisher and authentication were never used, IIRC.
[01:59] <lifeless> by anyone?
[01:59] <wgrant> And canonicalurl and a couple of others that I don't recall.
[02:00] <wgrant> They were just placeholder projects.
[02:00] <wallyworld_> lifeless: sounds like a major part of the perf issue on qas is that it's running 3 db instances in 1/4 the memory
[02:00] <lifeless> grah, so we need to delete them
[02:00] <wgrant> Oh, they have code now.
[02:00] <lifeless> wallyworld_: its part of it yes; but our pages generally touch - way - more data than needed.
[02:00] <wgrant> When did that happen...
[02:01] <wallyworld_> lifeless: agreed. but still, stuffing 3 db instances into so little memory....
[02:01] <lifeless> wallyworld_: indeed; things will get better once we can drop staging
[02:01] <lifeless> will get us down to 2 instances
[02:01] <StevenK> I am amused that 32GiB is 'so little memory'
[02:02] <wallyworld_> epsecially since no-one could possibly need mnore than 640kb
[02:02] <wgrant> lifeless: Ah, that's right. lazr.canonicalurl and lazr.publisher have branches, but they are just empty lazr templtes.
[02:02] <lifeless> wallyworld_: for now, you need to try any page on qa staging at least 3 or 4 times
[02:02] <wgrant> lifeless: lazr.authentication is real.
[02:02] <wallyworld_> yes :-(
[02:02] <lifeless> wallyworld_: but you *cannot* assume that timeouts on [qa]staging are not a problem for prod
[02:02] <lifeless> wallyworld_: there was a thread on this a couple weeks back on -dev
[02:02] <wallyworld_> sure, that lesson was mentioned at the epic :-)
[02:19] <poolie> lifeless, +1 to emeritii
[02:30] <wallyworld_> lifeless: thanks for making me open a dictionary
[02:30] <lifeless> wallyworld_: de nada!
[02:30] <wallyworld_> i was hoping (expecting?) that we would do such a thing
[02:30] <lifeless> look in dictionaries ?
[02:31] <wallyworld_> lp is hard enough as it is without all that combined knowledge walking out the door
[02:31] <wallyworld_> lifeless: no, the team thing you emailed :-)
[02:31] <lifeless> :P
[02:37] <StevenK> wallyworld_: dict(1) ?
[02:38] <wallyworld_> StevenK: i used google
[02:38] <wallyworld_> :-P
[03:13] <lifeless> https://dev.launchpad.net/CreatingNewProjects could use a proof read
[03:38] <wgrant> Is there a workable YUI3 calendar yet?
[03:38] <wgrant> This embedded copy of YUI2 irks me.
[03:41] <lifeless> wgrant: ^ thats what I wanted existing docs for
[03:41] <wgrant> Looking.
[03:45] <wgrant> lifeless: Looks reasonable, although you don't seem to discourage namespace packages.
[03:49] <lifeless> wgrant: I figure most folk know the terrible pain
[03:49] <lifeless> wgrant: perhaps I should add some notes to that effect
[03:49] <wgrant> lifeless: You figure incorrectly.
[04:07] <wgrant> wallyworld_: How do I get a traceback from a YUI test failure?
[04:16] <wallyworld_> wgrant: not easily afaik
[04:16] <wallyworld_> i normally stick in a breakpoint just before
[04:16] <wallyworld_> the failure and poke around from there
[05:09] <wgrant> Does anybody know where SystemErrorView is tested?
[05:11] <StevenK> It doesn't look to be tested.
[05:11] <StevenK> From a quick bzr grep
[06:31] <lifeless> stub: hi
[06:31] <lifeless> stub: I found a new bug for the fastdowntime - dealing with landed but not deployed db patches
[06:31] <lifeless> stub: I think we want to avoid causing a pipeline-halt on appserver deployments
[06:39] <stub> lifeless: What is the problem? launchpad/devel & launchpad/db-devel split handles that doesn't it?
[06:40] <stub> We rollout launchpad/devel everywhere except the databases. We rollout db-devel to the databases, and merge it into /devel after the rollout.
[06:48] <lifeless> stub: thats probably a decent day one answer, letting the bug go to back burner
[06:48] <lifeless> stub: It seems to me that eventually db-devel probably wants to be either 'big downtime' patches only, or to be dropped altogether
[07:04] <wgrant> spm: That's not leakage.
[07:04] <wgrant> It's cache.
[07:06] <lifeless> 18:31 < lifeless> stub: I think we want to avoid causing a pipeline-halt on appserver deployments
[07:06] <lifeless> 18:39 < stub> lifeless: What is the problem? launchpad/devel & launchpad/db-devel split handles that doesn't it?
[07:06] <lifeless> 18:40 < stub> We rollout launchpad/devel everywhere except the databases. We rollout db-devel to the databases, and merge it into /devel after the rollout.
[07:06] <lifeless> 18:48 < lifeless> stub: thats probably a decent day one answer, letting the bug go to back burner
[07:06] <lifeless> 18:48 < lifeless> stub: It seems to me that eventually db-devel probably wants to be either 'big downtime' patches only, or to be dropped altogether
[07:08] <stub> Yup. Tackle the landing workflows as a separate problem.
[07:09] <stub> We can avoid the split if upgrade.py is smarter, being able to apply just the live patches or the live + heavy patches, and having buildbots run the test suite against both schemas.
[07:11] <lifeless> k, how about fastdowntime2 or something as a tag for 'later' items ?
[07:12] <stub> Sure, although technically how we land stuff doesn't affect downtime at all. Its just a developer time saver.
[07:16] <jtv> Won't this obfuscate code changes that depend on "big downtime" patches?
[07:17] <lifeless> stub: well, given that that (dev efficiency) is ultimately why we're doing this :)
[07:17] <lifeless> jtv: ideally there will be no big downtime patches
[07:18] <lifeless> jtv: as of today they require signoff by me / flacoste
[07:18] <stub> Yer, but a nice split means smaller solvable projects. No need to pile them together in a big project.
[07:18] <lifeless> stub: agreed
[07:18] <lifeless> stub: pick a tag name for the $next-piece ;)
[07:22] <stub> landing-workflow
[07:23] <stub> Or as it is probably a standalone bug, no need for a tag.
[07:24] <lifeless> stub: I'd like to be able to find them later; its tightly related to the downtime thing - I was suggesting to remove the fastdowntime tag so its not in the burndown for the inital feature
[07:25] <stub> Sure
[07:25] <stub> Are these milestones?
[07:27] <lifeless> stub: mmm, more we have a single large theme, and stages of work
[07:28] <lifeless> stub: of which right now we know 'step 1' and 'not step 1' ;)
[07:28] <stub> Two moving milestones - stuff to do now, stuff to do later :)
[07:29] <lifeless> sure; though milestones are heavier. Lets stay with tags for now ?
[07:30] <lifeless> I've given it fastdowntime-later
[07:30] <lifeless> if we find all the later stuff is landing workflow, I'll take the bullet for updating the labels
[07:34] <adeuring> good morning
[07:37] <lifeless> morning
[08:11] <LPCIBot> Project devel build #882: FAILURE in 6 hr 0 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/devel/882/
[08:11] <LPCIBot> Project devel build #883: STILL FAILING in 0.8 sec: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/devel/883/
[08:21] <mrevell> Hello
[08:28] <jtv> hi mrevell
[09:15] <lifeless> bigjools: you'll appreciate this; just got the human stopwatch trophy :)
[09:15] <bigjools> lifeless: it's easy :)
[09:16] <lifeless> bigjools: I figured it would be hard - and wasn't trying for it :)
[09:16] <bigjools> lifeless: karts FTW :)
[09:16] <lifeless> heh, i was in ? daytona superspeedway? the big O course, in a formula one car
[09:17] <bigjools> ah yeah that's the other easy way
[09:17] <bigjools> lifeless: tune the F1 car so it's got almost no wing on that track
[09:26] <lifeless> bigjools: yeah, I was topping out at 358kph, and maintained that on the corners
[09:53] <jtv> thanks mthaddon, and hi :)
[09:53] <mthaddon> o/
[10:39] <wgrant> henninge: Isn't IDiff['diffstat'] clearly wrong, making this a trivial fix?
[10:39] <henninge> wgrant: what do you mean?
[10:40] <wgrant> henninge: It's a dict, not text...
[10:40] <wgrant> So IText is not right.
[10:40] <henninge> wgrant: what I mean
[10:41] <henninge> t
[10:41] <henninge> wgrant: I was just wondering if the interface can be changed like that, the whole thing about api consistency.
[10:42] <henninge> but obviously nobody has been using this as text or else it would have been noticed earlier.
[10:42] <wgrant> Exactly.
[10:42] <henninge> ok
[10:43] <henninge> easy fix then, I just hope we don't hit any more of these.
[12:42] <adeuring> jtv: still around?
[12:42] <jtv> yes
[12:42] <jtv> got an MP for me?
[12:42] <jtv> I think you've earned a review, what with all the ones you do for me.  :)
[12:42] <adeuring> jtv: yes, a small one: https://code.launchpad.net/~adeuring/lazr.batchnavigator/short-read-for-backwards-batch/+merge/67823
[12:42] <jtv> Coming up.
[13:08] <abentley> henninge: I don't understand why the fact that IDiff.diffstat is a serialized dict breaks the marshaller.  A serialized dict is text...
[13:08] <henninge> abentley: because it is not
[13:08] <henninge> it is just a dict.
[13:09] <henninge> See the implementation.
[13:09] <abentley> henninge: Ah, it's wrongly-exported?
[13:09] <henninge> well, it is stored as a json string in the database but the model implements an attribute that de/serializes it.
[13:10] <henninge> so that implementation does not match the interface anymore, hence the wrong export.
[13:10] <henninge> abentley: I have to run to the doctor's now. ttyl
[13:10] <abentley> henninge: ttyl
[13:33] <henninge> deryck: Hi!
[13:33] <henninge> deryck: I am here but on 3G so no voice ... ;(
[13:33] <deryck> henninge, no worries.
[13:35] <deryck> abentley, http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/3/api/ArrayAssert.html#method_isEmpty
[13:37] <sinzui> Once more we require a library to makeup for the deficiencies of the language.
[13:42] <jml> sinzui: one measure of a language's strength is the degree to which that is possible.
[13:42] <sinzui> granted
[13:43] <deryck> henninge, I've seen your mail and the card move.... looks like the obfuscated email work is on track to land now?
[13:56] <bac> nice blog post mrevell!
[13:57] <mrevell> bac, Thanks. I thought it was about time to announce :)
[14:06] <jcsackett> sinzui: you available to chat?
[14:07] <sinzui> yes. I will start mumble?
[14:07] <jcsackett> sinzui: sure.
[14:07] <abentley> jtv: still OCR?
[14:11] <jtv> yes, abentley, still OCR!
[14:11] <jtv> adeuring: not getting a diff for your branch at all.  :(  I'll go for manual.
[14:12] <abentley> jtv: I guess you're not on Thailand time right now?
[14:12] <jtv> No.
[14:12] <adeuring> jtv: yeah, seems that LP is a bit slow today....
[14:13] <jtv> Oh, it may have got caught in the release of course.
[14:13]  * deryck is switching offices, back online in 20 minutes
[14:14] <abentley> adeuring: no, it seems that something's wrong with the script that does those diffs.
[14:17] <jtv> adeuring: oh well, I just looked at the diff.  Done.
[14:17] <adeuring>  jtv: cool, thanks
[14:31] <sinzui> mrevell, sorry :( I spent my morning getting my computer to work. I can talk now if you like
[14:32] <jtv> bigjools: I noticed that process-accepted commits its changes, in its inner loop, even in a dry run.  Accident?
[14:34] <jam> is it supposed to be downtime right now?
[14:35] <jam> I have a merge-proposal page that hasn't updated for 45 minutes +, and I tried to link a branch to a bug and it timed out after 9s.
[14:35] <jtv> jam: problem with the MP diff script, apparently.
[14:37] <jtv> Although… I just got a timeout as well.
[14:38] <jam> jtv: the last status updates I see are "degraded performance" followed by "performance should be back to normal"
[14:38] <jam> (from 45min ago)
[14:38] <jam> I don't know if what I'm seeing is just long-term fallout
[14:38] <jam> or whether something is still broken
[14:39] <bigjools> jtv: there's an outer abort though right?
[14:39] <jtv> bigjools: yes, but that won't help much if the inner loop's already committed.  :)
[14:39] <jam> I just succeeded in linking the branch, but it took 4.27s
[14:39] <bigjools> jtv: doesn't the partial commit get aborted?
[14:40] <jtv> There is no partial commit — not without 2-phase, which we don't use.
[14:40] <jtv> Commit is commit.
[14:40] <bigjools> jtv: :/
[14:40] <bigjools> then it's borked
[14:40] <jtv> At least it's good to see my design decisions for libpqxx justified.
[14:40] <bigjools> jtv: although we don't use dry run for anything
[14:40] <jtv> Well, it's fixed now.  Up for review.
[14:40] <bigjools> cool
[14:40] <jtv> (I needed some cleanups before I could confidently mess with the script)
[14:43] <bigjools> I hate it when I see bugs in a security adapter
[14:43] <sumanah> bac, flacoste -- hi, Sumana here asking whether a blog entry about Launchpad's code review process is in the works.  flacoste I think you said you & Brad are working on it?
[14:43] <sumanah> (or rather that bac  is working on it)
[14:43] <mrevell> sinzui, Does 15 minutes from now suit you?
[14:43] <bac> sumanah: i have it on my todo list.  :(
[14:44] <sinzui> mrevell, yes
[14:44] <bac> sumanah: i will try to set aside time on friday to do it.
[14:44] <sumanah> bac: if I interviewed you, would that help?
[14:44] <bac> sumanah: i'd like to talk to you some time!
[14:44] <sumanah> thanks bac -- we in #mediawiki are looking forward to hearing about your example before a code review training on Tuesday
[14:45] <sumanah> bac, Francis's email was very useful but graphs would be even better :)
[14:45] <bac> sumanah: maybe we can talk tomorrow?
[14:45] <sumanah> bac: ok!  and I'd also love any documents about how Canonical people train each other in code review -- if you ask reviewers to write down any lessons learned about how to teach/learn how to code review, I would be very enthusiastic to read them.
[15:01] <gary_poster> flacoste, for bug 777874, can we regard that policy ("If a new bug, has >2 duplicates associated with it, or >2 people have indicated that this bug affects them, then automatically mark it confirmed.") as vetted and approved for all Launchpad users, or should addressing the bug include trying to confirm whether it is appropriate, or considering how to make it configurable/choosable?
[15:01] <_mup_> Bug #777874: If multiple reports on new bug, mark it confirmed <bug-lifecycle> <bugs> <escalated> <ubuntu-platform> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> <Ubuntu:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/777874 >
[15:02] <gary_poster> all Launchpad *projects
[15:07] <sinzui> matsubara, bug 803996 and bug 283167
[15:07] <_mup_> Bug #803996: person picker widget doesn't show link to unassign myself <disclosure> <exploratory-testing> <person-picker> <qa-ok> <Launchpad itself:Fix Committed by wallyworld> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/803996 >
[15:07] <_mup_> Bug #283167: Private branch owner cannot unsubscribe someone <disclosure> <lp-code> <oem-services> <Launchpad itself:Triaged by wallyworld> <NULL Project:Invalid> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/283167 >
[15:11] <LPCIBot> Yippie, build fixed!
[15:11] <LPCIBot> Project devel build #884: FIXED in 5 hr 29 min: https://lpci.wedontsleep.org/job/devel/884/
[15:30] <gary_poster> mrevell, I saddled you with https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/164474 .  If you'd rather me kick it somewhere else, let me know (and a suggestion would be lovely :-) )
[15:31]  * gary_poster mixes metaphors blithely
[15:33] <jtv> abentley, while we're on the subject, care to review one of mine?  https://code.launchpad.net/~jtv/launchpad/bug-676103/+merge/67852
[15:33] <mrevell> gary_poster, :) I'll take a look now.
[15:33] <abentley> jtv: sure.
[15:33] <jtv> thanks.
[15:37] <flacoste> gary_poster: consider it vetted and approved, but you might want to feature flag it ;-)
[15:37] <flacoste> gary_poster: Ubuntu wants it for sure
[15:40] <flacoste> we might need some more scope controller: project:name
[15:40] <nigelb> I get search warnings, if I ignore them, I can't see the failures :(
[15:40] <nigelb> err, sorry
[15:40] <nigelb> wrong channel
[15:45] <gary_poster> mrevell, thanks :-)
[15:45] <gary_poster> flacoste, ack, makes sense, thanks
[15:45] <mrevell> np
[15:46] <jtv> abentley: I need to go somewhere.  I expect it'll be an hour or two.
[16:08] <flacoste> danilo_: you win the best commit message of the year award!
[16:08] <nigelb> flacoste: linky? :)
[16:08] <danilos> flacoste, heh, thanks :)
[16:17] <timrc> Throwing this out here, from #launchpad.  It would be nice if, for a PPA, we could specify a URL to a downstream archive.  This archive would be consulted whenever a package is uploaded to the PPA or copy/rebuilt.  If the package with that name and version already exist downstream, the upload / copy and rebuild is rejected.  The reason is to prevent package collisions before they propagate.
[16:18] <timrc> This may be a new way of thinking of a PPA in terms of how they were originally purposed, but, would like to get some thoughts anyway
[16:19] <bigjools> timrc: you need Derived Distros
[16:19] <bigjools> talking of which I need to catch up with you guys about that
[16:20] <timrc> bigjools, yes and yes
[16:20] <bigjools> timrc: I want to know how attached to your crazy custom suite names you are and whether we can work around that
[16:25] <timrc> bigjools, I think what we need to do is fully understand derived distrobutions today and then develop a migration plan identifying the gaps
[16:25] <timrc> distributions, too
[16:26] <bigjools> timrc: right. I want to see if I can help minimise gaps by suggesting different practices for you if I think you can do better
[16:27] <bigjools> timrc: we can enable DDs on staging so you can blast away, there's a couple of bugs to fix first though.
[16:28] <flacoste> nigelb: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~launchpad-pqm/launchpad/devel/revision/13419
[16:30] <timrc> bigjools, I would love to push all our problems on to you, so I'm definitely supportive of moving towards a launchpad solution in that regard :)
[16:31] <bigjools> timrc: I don't want your problems which is why I want to help now, rather than later :)
[16:32] <timrc> bigjools, even if we could work around naming and what not, I think our biggest issues are security and responsiveness... we have to be able to react very fast if shit-hits-the-fan for a customer, so having this aspect of our commercial operations managed by launchpad adds another dimension (but that's something for you and smagoun to discuss))
[16:33] <timrc> so the LEP on derived distributions did not cover privacy and last I heard there was a privacy rewrite going on?
[16:33] <timrc> both of which make, at least me, nervous
[16:34] <nigelb> flacoste: heh, I agree :-)
[16:36] <flacoste> timrc: private distributions (and derived) is on the roadmap (~3-4 months)
[16:37] <timrc> flacoste, completed and in production in 3-4 months?
[16:38] <timrc> I have a date with some chicken wings, bbiab
[16:40] <bigjools> flacoste: we are still having massive performance issues in production
[16:46] <flacoste> bigjools: yes, i've hit a few timeouts
[17:47] <cr3> hi folks, anyone have a moment for a class design question?
[17:47] <abentley> cr3: sure.
[17:50] <cr3> abentley: awesome! so, lets say I'm adapting Product with FooProduct which delegates(IProduct, "product"), which works well so far. now, the design problem is what if I want methods like newSeries and getSeries in FooProduct to return an adapted ProductSeries, eg FooProductSeries? might there be an alternative to overriding each of those methods explicitly in FooProduct and adapting each return value, eg def newSeries(self, name): return IFooProductSeries(se
[17:51] <bac> abentley: i'm working on the JSON cache branch again.
[17:51] <abentley> bac: cool.
[17:52] <bac> abentley: did you open any bugs for tracking this work?
[17:52] <abentley> cr3: I don't think there's an alternative to explicit overrides in that case.
[17:53] <cr3> abentley: darn, where's my pattern book when I need it the most :)
[17:53] <abentley> cr3: delegation is not as cool as true inheritance, because the delegated class does not have access to methods on the delegating class.
[17:54] <abentley> cr3, i.e. Product.newSeries will not have access to FooProduct.asdf
[17:54] <abentley> cr3: so you can't use the "template method".
[17:55] <abentley> bac: I didn't open any bugs for this work.
[17:55] <bac> thanks abentley
[18:07] <abentley> cr3: I imagine it is technically possible if you override __getattr__() or extend delegates(), to decorate methods to adjust their return types, but it would be a pretty nasty hack.
[18:08] <cr3> abentley: yeah, I'm looking more for a pattern to do this nicely otherwise suckup repetitive code rather than hack it
[18:08] <cr3> abentley: even if the pattern might be slightly overkill, my example only mentionned two methods but I actually have more which would benefit from a good pattern
[18:10] <cr3> abentley: if Product.newSeries did something like getUtility(IProductSeries).create(self, name), then I was thinking that in my context I could potentially subscribe my own adapter for that interface, but then I think I puked a bit in my mouth :(
[18:10] <abentley> cr3: if you were using inheritance, not delegation, you could use template method http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_method_pattern
[18:10] <cr3> err, s/IProductSeries/IProductSeriesSet/
[18:16] <abentley> cr3: You could add a member of Product that is a class used to retrieve the ProductSeriesSet, and then override it on your instance.  But that is gross, because Product is an ORM object.
[18:17] <abentley> cr3: s/ProductSeriesSet/ProductSeries/
[18:29] <cr3> abentley: I'm not sure I follow, since I use adaption rather than inheritance, it wouldn't make a difference if I override that ProductSeries class in my adapted class because, if I understand correctly, Product.newSeries would do something like self.product_series_class(*args, **kwargs)... but self would be Product, not FooProduct
[18:30] <cr3> abentley: if I misunderstood, I'd appreciate clarification because, even if it might be gross, it might be worth considering :)
[18:31] <abentley> cr3: In FooProduct.__init__ or similar, you'd do self.product.product_series_class = FooProductSeries.
[18:31] <cr3> abentley: ah, gotcha, that would work
[18:32] <cr3> abentley: is there any precedent of something like that somewhere in Launchpad where it might've made sense to do so?
[18:32] <abentley> cr3: it's gross because Product is cached by Storm, so that Product with its custom product_series_class could show up somewhere else, where it wasn't expected to have that override.
[18:33] <cr3> abentley: I was thinking the other way around, if it was once a FooProduct, it might also make sense for it to remain as such. since it delegates IProduct, it should still behave the same as far as callers are concerned
[18:34] <abentley> cr3: No, we don't usually try to do polymorphism via delegation, so I don't know of anywhere we're doing this.
[18:34] <cr3> abentley: but I can appreciate how that could be a nasty side effect :(
[18:35] <abentley> cr3: re "I was thinking the other way around", the delegated-to Product was never a FooProduct, so it shouldn't remain as such.
[18:35] <cr3> abentley: touche! :)
[18:36] <cr3> does storm cache store.find or only store.get?
[18:37] <abentley> cr3: I have no idea, but... 1) Something may *already* be using that instance 2) Something in the FooProduct.* call tree may acquire that instance.
[18:39] <abentley> cr3: Can we take a step back and question the assumption of adaptation?  What's the adaptation trying to solve?
[18:42] <jtv> thanks abentley — back now but glad to see my absence hasn't held things up.
[18:42] <abentley> jtv: np
[18:45] <cr3> abentley: it's trying to solve extending product with stats information with a single query, so FooProduct takes a product, number_of_test_runs, first_test_run_date, last_test_run_date, etc.. I have FooProductSet.create/get/search which take care of returning a FooProduct where the decorated result or resultset returns a product with all the other stats information already retrieved
[18:48] <cr3> abentley: ideally, I don't want to have to pollute the registry product with that information, it shouldn't have to know about these stats
[18:50] <cr3> abentley: so, the reason why these bleeds into ProductSeries is that this class also has an adapted class providing finer grained stats just for the series
[18:51] <abentley> cr3: In general, we *do* pollute classes.  If you want to avoid that, perhaps a mechanism that lets you look up the stats for a given Product or ProductSeries would work.
[18:53] <cr3> abentley: is it just me or did QuestionsPerson originally adapt person? I see how that it pollutes Person with QuestionsPersonMixin now :(
[18:53] <cr3> I'd love to understand why...
[18:54] <abentley> cr3: After all this difficulty with other options, the reason why seems clear to me :-)
[18:55]  * cr3 sheds a tear for adaption :(
[18:57] <lifeless> naive adaption will perform poorly in an ORM environment
[18:57] <lifeless> you need fairly deep integration to avoid death by a thousand queries scenarios
[18:58] <abentley> lifeless: this adaptation is being done to avoid additional queries.
[18:58] <cr3> abentley: my concern about Mixins is that high level classes (like project) endup having to know about low level classes (like project series), so a person for example ends up becoming all knowing :(
[18:59] <abentley> cr3: I agree with you.
[19:00] <cr3> abentley: they're alright within a component, like classes within lp.answers could mixin among themselves as much as they like, but not across components
[19:00] <lifeless> an alternative is to have an explicit mapping phase, and that can move away from using the ORM obtained object
[19:01] <lifeless> e.g. truely map into plain old python
[19:01] <cr3> lifeless: is that what you mentionned a few months ago to decouple launchpad from its database backend which would have the nice side effect of being to run tests without the database?
[19:02] <lifeless> yes
[19:02] <cr3> lifeless: I'm very excited about that project, especially to see the design at work, any plans to have it implemented?
[19:03] <cr3> lifeless: actually, is there a LEP I could keep track of?
[19:04] <lifeless> cr3: probably never going to do it - splitting LP into small services will take a year or two and after that we can reconsider
[19:05] <cr3> lifeless: I'm patient :)
[20:48] <benji> flacoste: I've replied to your review of https://code.launchpad.net/~benji/launchpad/bug-781600/+merge/67704 and made several changes.
[20:49] <flacoste> benji: ack, will look at it shortly
[20:49] <benji> k
[20:52] <lifeless> cr3: why is checkbox making an OPTIONS call ?
[20:53] <lifeless> actually, its someone in a browser hitting api pages.
[20:53] <lifeless> we should probably block that on the api domain
[20:56] <cr3> lifeless: I'm not sure I follow where this call is originating from...
[20:57] <lifeless> cr3: someone is poking at the api with a browser, on the checkbox project.
[20:57] <lifeless> cr3: and triggering an oops
[20:59] <cr3> lifeless: weird, I wonder if that might be the results tracker integration. can I get more information?
[21:00] <lifeless> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/810113
[21:00] <_mup_> Bug #810113: TypeError constructing page id: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'list' objects <oops> <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/810113 >
[21:01] <jcsackett> sinzui: i will be at the meeting tonight.
[21:01] <sinzui> fab
[21:09] <lifeless> flacoste: do you want to look at lp.net/lazr and sort it out then ?
[21:14] <cr3> lifeless: that oops doesn't seem to be related to the results tracker and I looked at some of the scripts used by my team to generate bug coverage reports, likely candidates to generates oopses against checkbox, but they all seem to use lpltk which uses launchpadlib
[21:15] <cr3> lifeless: oh wait, was that oops generated a couple days ago?
[21:18] <cr3> I was playing with the javascript client to make reports on one website taken from launchpad, but that was just exploratory
[21:25] <lifeless> probably that
[21:28] <flacoste> benji: on what ground was bug 810004 marked critical?
[21:28] <_mup_> Bug #810004: +bugs page layout for bzr-hg is messed up <Launchpad itself:Triaged> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/810004 >
[21:52] <benji> flacoste: I thought it was a regression before I realized the true cause (the very long bug title) and I forgot to change it.  Fixed now.
[21:56] <wgrant> lifeless: :( why don't we fix OOPSes rather than blocking it?
[21:57] <lifeless> wgrant: well we should as well
[21:58] <lifeless> flacoste: 09:09 < lifeless> flacoste: do you want to look at lp.net/lazr and sort it out then ?
[22:11] <flacoste> benji: ok, if had been a regression, please tag it appropriately
[22:11] <flacoste> benji: review comments sent btw
[22:12] <flacoste> and out...
[22:12] <benji> flacoste: thanks
[23:19] <wallyworld_> wgrant: jcsackett: StevenK: sinzui: http://people.canonical.com/~ianb/picker-search-suggestion-mockup.png http://people.canonical.com/~ianb/picker-search-suggestion-mockup2.png
[23:24] <StevenK> sinzui: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/643600/


[10:27] <jester-> hi
[10:28] <jpds> Philip5: No, it's on a different server.
[10:29] <Philip5> jpds: aha, ok... just thought it would have been nice to have :)
[13:33] <Zic> hello, I have a question for the Freenode staff : we use Ubuntu-fr-IRC account to register our channels and set it as the channel founder (+F) like Ubuntu IRC Council with the UbuntuIrcCouncil account on NickServ
[13:33] <Zic> but we have a problem : -ChanServ- Ubuntu-fr-IRC has too many channels registered.
[13:33] <Zic> does it exist a possible to solution ton have more access on a specific account ?
[13:33] <Zic> s/ton/to/
[13:59] <Pricey> Zic: we use more than one nick.
[13:59] <Zic> Pricey: ok
[14:54] <nalioth> Zic: you'll need for a staff member to transfer any further channels
[15:01] <Zic> nalioth: ok, thanks, I think we'll register only "official" channel with Ubuntu-fr-IRC, and register channels which we want to be blocked via an other account, I don't want to disturb freenode staff every times that we need to block and forward a channel naming abuse when we can resolve it with the founder of its channel
[15:02] <Zic> s/channel/channels/
[15:05] <nalioth> Zic: Pricey and I don't mind
[15:06] <Zic> ok, thanks for help


[05:09] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4389 Uploading build
[05:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4389 Diff missing
[10:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4389 UNAPPROVED queue
[11:16] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4390 No packages are being considered! If you are preparing sources manually, please upload them to the PPA now
[11:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4390 Uploading build
[12:10] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4390 Pending binary packages
[12:31] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4390 Diff missing
[12:50] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4390 UNAPPROVED queue
[17:47] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4387 Diff missing
[18:28] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4387 Pending binary packages
[19:48] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- cpaelzer, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4387 Diff missing
[23:40] -queuebot:#ubuntu-ci-eng- LocutusOfBorg, https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/4379 Needs rebuild due to higher version at destination (hirsute/node-babel7, hirsute/node-eslint-utils, hirsute/node-mysticatea-eslint-plugin, hirsute/pkg-js-tools). Release pocket (hirsute/node-eslint-plugin-es, hirsute/node-eslint-plugin-node). Successfully built (hirsute/node-regenerator-transform)