[01:18] <cmaloney> evening
[01:18] <mrgoodcat> hey
[01:18] <cmaloney> howdy
[01:18] <mrgoodcat> added authentication :)
[01:18] <cmaloney> w00t
[01:18] <mrgoodcat> .adminecho testing
[01:18] <bookiebot> testing
[01:18] <cmaloney> .adminecho testing
[01:18] <mrgoodcat> right now i'm working on making it so you have to reauth after changing nick
[01:19] <mrgoodcat> otherwise if i change my nick someone can impersonate me
[01:54] <mrgoodcat> cmaloney: done :)
[01:55] <mrgoodcat> no commands are marked adminonly right now except adminecho but that can come later
[12:35] <jrwren> happy launch day!
[12:41] <mrgoodcat> and a happy launch day to you as well :)
[12:44] <brousch> Is SpaceX going up today?
[12:44] <mrgoodcat> 14.04
[12:45] <brousch> aoril 4 has already passed
[12:45] <brousch> 14
[12:45] <mrgoodcat> ah
[12:45] <mrgoodcat> well idk then
[12:45] <mrgoodcat> jrwren: knows tho. maybe he had a product launch?
[12:46] <brousch> I'm just messing with you
[12:46] <jrwren> 14.04 today
[12:46] <jrwren> you silly #ubuntu-us-mi folks
[12:46] <brousch> 17.04.14 today
[12:47] <jrwren> trusty today
[12:48] <brousch> So is mrgoodcat, which is why he was easy to troll
[12:49] <mrgoodcat> gdi
[12:49] <mrgoodcat> i didn't even think to check it
[12:49] <mrgoodcat> i was like "how did i miss launch day?"
[12:49] <jrwren> brousch: saucy today, you are.
[12:52] <brousch> I think Tim Hortons gave me caffeinated coffee
[12:59] <mrgoodcat> brousch: those cheeky bastards
[13:06] <jrwren> as they say in #openstack, ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ RELEASE or RIOT! ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
[13:12] <waf> mrgoodcat: hey, sorry i couldn't make chc. i was traveling for work yesterday.
[13:14] <mrgoodcat> got it
[13:15] <mrgoodcat> no big deal really. i was more productive alone anyways
[13:21] <mrgoodcat> http://www.wwmt.com/shared/news/features/top-stories/stories/wwmt_witnesses-report-shooting-at-wayside-west-kalamazoo-20097.shtml#.U0_S2M-x15S
[13:21] <bookiebot> http://is.gd/WOBk5P - 23-yr old Kalamazoo man shot and killed at Wayside West - WWMT - Kalamazoo MI Top Stories - News, Sports, Weather, Traffic
[13:23] <jrwren> great, i'm going there next weekend.
[13:23] <brousch> jrwren: To that sports bar?
[13:23] <jrwren> well, kzoo, not wayside.
[13:24] <jrwren> I've been to waysides countless times.
[13:24] <brousch> I think KalamazooX will be slightly less violent
[13:24] <jrwren> all more than 10 yrs ago :)
[13:24] <mrgoodcat> lol
[13:24] <mrgoodcat> yes likely kalamazoox will be less violent than a sports bar
[13:24] <mrgoodcat> wayside is a pretty meh bar anyways
[13:24] <brousch> slightly
[13:24] <mrgoodcat> it's not bad, just difficult to get to and from without driving
[13:26] <mrgoodcat> next thing to add to bookiebot is database support so i can play with message history
[13:27] <mrgoodcat> when i started pickling dicts to store information i realized i should probably get goin on real database storage
[13:27] <brousch> pickled dicts just sounds dirty
[13:30] <jrwren> waysides is terrible.
[13:30] <jrwren> i rarely had fun when I was there.
[13:34] <mrgoodcat> brousch: i needed key-value store
[13:34] <mrgoodcat> i was just using a dict
[13:35] <mrgoodcat> but then i wanted it persistent over restarts
[13:35] <mrgoodcat> so i started pickling
[13:44] <mrgoodcat> pickle is faster than in thought...
[13:45] <mrgoodcat> 99999 random 7 character strings in a dict with ints as keys pickled in 0.049 seconds as timed by datetime module...
[13:45] <mrgoodcat> it took longer to create in memory than it took to write it to the disk
[13:46] <mrgoodcat> file ended up 2.0M
[13:58] <jrwren> yup, pickle is good.  it has downsides too
[14:12] <mrgoodcat> jrwren: anything specific i should be looking out for?
[14:12] <jrwren> executable code.
[14:12] <jrwren> when you read the pickle it can/will just start running code if it finds it.
[14:12] <jrwren> its fine if you always trust your pickle files.
[14:12] <jrwren> but you shouldn't unpickle things from untrusted sources
[14:12] <mrgoodcat> ah, well i'm not _too_ worried about that, since i'm creating the pickle files
[14:12] <jrwren> right.
[14:13] <jrwren> also, pickle versions change.
[14:13] <jrwren> IIRC there was a bug between 2.7.2 and 2.7.3 :(
[14:13] <mrgoodcat> i'm on 3.3
[14:13] <mrgoodcat> so it will likely change even more
[14:13] <jrwren> yes, beware.
[14:14] <mrgoodcat> there's no long term storage of the pickle though
[14:14] <mrgoodcat> .reload
[14:14] <bookiebot> reloaded 20 plugins in 0.007452 seconds
[14:14] <mrgoodcat> about 7 thousandths of a second
[14:14] <jrwren> oh, only short term? then I'd not worry at all.
[14:15] <mrgoodcat> it's just to persist over restarts
[14:16] <jrwren> sure, and then one day apt-get upgrade upgrades your python and then you restart and KABOOM you cant read your pickle
[14:17] <mrgoodcat> well i'm using virtualenv
[14:17] <mrgoodcat> so that's not likely
[14:18] <mrgoodcat> but nothing critical is stored
[14:18] <mrgoodcat> .message jrwren it only stores messages right now
[14:18] <bookiebot> mrgoodcat: I'll tell him
[14:18] <mrgoodcat> .reload
[14:18] <bookiebot> reloaded 20 plugins in 0.007524 seconds
[14:18] <jrwren> its very likely with virtualenv
[14:18] <bookiebot> jrwren, at 2014-04-17 10:18:17 EST mrgoodcat said: it only stores messages right now
[14:18] <jrwren> virtualenv doesn't copy the python bin into the venv.
[14:18] <brousch> virtualenv is a link to system python, not a copy (except on windows)
[14:18] <mrgoodcat> ah
[14:18] <mrgoodcat> didn't realize that
[14:18] <jrwren> i've had apt-get upgrades make me recreate my venvs :(
[14:19] <mrgoodcat> is there any way to force python version?
[14:19] <mrgoodcat> i created with virtualenv -p python3.3
[14:20] <mrgoodcat> so it will stay on 3.3 no matter what, but if a minor version change can break pickle, wouldn't i want to force that too?
[14:27] <havnestance3> anyone use msmtprc for emailing notifications from a server?
[14:33] <havnestance3> msmtp too
[14:43] <jsivak> mrgoodcat: the only way I've found to "freeze" the version of Python to something I control is to do a "side/alt" install into /usr/local
[14:45] <jsivak> .. and note that Python upgrades from 2.7.A to 2.7.B can break venvs.. heck I had a problems when 2.6.5 was updated without a version change once.
[14:47] <mrgoodcat> well i guess i'm not that worried about it
[14:48] <mrgoodcat> this is all very theoretical for an irc bot
[14:48] <mrgoodcat> if it breaks i'll fix it
[14:48] <mrgoodcat> simple as that
[14:48] <jsivak> .. and recreating VE's is easy.. espeically with pip install..
[14:49] <jsivak> Oh, another reminder, the code in a VE may not "break"/crash after a Python upgrade until you restart it (if it were a web app, or some other long running app)
[14:49] <jsivak> we had that "surprise" as well.
[14:50] <mrgoodcat> ha something to look out for i guess
[14:50] <mrgoodcat> i like how i can make edits to running python files and just propogate the change when i feel like it
[14:50] <brousch> Do you guys use venv in production, or a dedicated server for each thing?
[14:50] <jsivak> its not often, but yeah.. VE's are still great, but it sucks when the "earth is moved"..
[14:50] <mrgoodcat> .reload is my favorite command :)
[14:50] <bookiebot> reloaded 20 plugins in 0.00777 seconds
[14:50] <jsivak> brousch: we use them in production..
[14:51] <jsivak> we host all of our webapps in their own VE.
[14:54] <brousch> jsivak: you have a lot of them?
[14:55] <jsivak> how many do you consider to be "a lot"? :)
[14:56] <brousch> I don't know. I've just noticed you for the first time today so I'm trying to learn more about you
[14:56] <jsivak> brousch: heh.. I've been to chc off an on; rick_h_ used to work for me and cmaloney currently does.
[14:56] <brousch> Ah, OK
[14:57] <brousch> Then I do have a small idea of how many you have
[14:57] <jsivak> we've got 10+ production web apps, each running in their own VE on 1 particular server. Our pattern is 1 webapp == 1 VE
[14:58] <jsivak> We do per-project web-simulators on another server.. there's probably about 30 VE's/apps there, but they have very low traffic/volume
[14:58] <jsivak> right now we are finally starting to use the spooling features of uwsgi.
[15:00] <mrgoodcat> 1 webapp == 1 VE and 1 VE != 1 server?
[15:00] <jsivak> we host apps like portal.morpace.com/app_name_here..  so we use proxy prefixing a lot.
[15:01] <jsivak> many of our apps have somewhat limited lifetimes and very limited user bases..
[15:03] <jsivak> we also maintain a local copy of all pypi packages that we use.. so we can always re-create VE's in their "original" state..
[15:06] <mrgoodcat> oops changed my nick on wrong server
[15:06] <mrgoodcat> lol
[15:07] <mrgoodcat> would be interesting to have a declarative VE config so you could assert versions and such
[15:07] <mrgoodcat> like a gemfile in ruby
[15:08] <jsivak> "virtualenv.py -p /usr/local/bin/python2.7 myenv_ve" is about as close as I can think of.
[15:08] <jsivak> heh
[15:10] <jsivak> you can be a little more "tricky" if you INSTALL virtualenv.py to /usr/local/bin USING /usr/local/bin/python2.7, then "virtualenv.py" automatically uses /usr/local/bin/python2.7 when creating new VE's.
[15:12] <jsivak> (don't need the "-p" arg..)
[15:23] <mrgoodcat> .reload
[15:23] <bookiebot> reloaded 21 plugins in 0.009743 seconds
[15:23] <mrgoodcat> .chanlist
[15:23] <bookiebot> Current channels: #ubuntu-us-mi #bookie
[15:23] <mrgoodcat> .shortlog
[15:23] <bookiebot> Current commit is 21f43bb996dea28dbdaef70a7fffbfabeaa33650 removed adminecho and added chanlist
[15:23] <jsivak> ok, I've been away from this channel for awhile, what's the "bookiebot"..
[15:24] <mrgoodcat> i just made it
[15:24] <mrgoodcat> .source
[15:24] <bookiebot> https://github.com/dyladan/alan
[15:24] <mrgoodcat> it's my way of experimenting/playing/learning with python
[15:24] <mrgoodcat> i'm newish to python
[15:24] <jsivak> ah, its not related to rick_h_'s Bookie?
[15:24] <mrgoodcat> it is actually
[15:24] <mrgoodcat> .bmark dyladan
[15:25] <bookiebot> http://nbviewer.ipython.org/github/rasbt/python_reference/blob/master/not_so_obvious_python_stuff.ipynb - Not so obvious python
[15:25] <mrgoodcat> my most recent bmark
[15:25] <mrgoodcat> .bmark admin 99
[15:25] <bookiebot> http://techblog.ironfroggy.com/2013/11/5-reasons-web-components-arent-ready.html - Developing Upwards: 5 Reasons Web Components Aren't Ready for Prime Time
[15:25] <mrgoodcat> rick_h_'s 99th newest bookmark
[15:26] <mrgoodcat> also if you reference a bookie issue number like #223 it pings the github api to get info about it
[15:26] <bookiebot> closed - ERROR/PoolWorker-3] maximum recursion depth exceeded - https://github.com/bookieio/Bookie/issues/223
[15:26] <brousch> Has anyone used Scratch?
[15:27] <jsivak> brousch: heh.. I tried to get my daughter to use it..
[15:27] <mrgoodcat> brousch: i'm not _that_ young...
[15:28] <brousch> jsivak: Judging by the tone, it did not go well?
[15:29] <jsivak> brousch: she's 12, Minecraft and Skyrim were "moar interesting".. :P
[15:30] <jsivak> .. though she's getting good at managing different Minecraft plugins/installs..
[15:30] <brousch> Hm, yeah, might be a bit old fro Scratch
[15:30] <brousch> I have a 6 year old
[15:53] <jrwren> <100 => trivial
[15:53] <jrwren> 100-1000 => a little
[15:53] <jrwren> 1000+ => a lot
[15:53] <jsivak> lol
[15:54] <jrwren> hey, you asked :)
[15:54] <jsivak> yeah, walked into that one..
[15:54] <jsivak> I'm not sure I'd classify < 100 as 'trivial'
[15:54] <jrwren> what do you use to host.
[15:54] <jrwren> ?
[15:54] <jrwren> uwsgi?
[15:54] <jsivak> yep
[15:54] <jrwren> and nginx?
[15:55] <jsivak> yep
[15:55] <jsivak> some apache.
[15:55] <jrwren> ugh
[15:55] <jrwren> mod_wsgi or mod_uwsgi?
[15:55] <jsivak> all the new stuff is using nginx...
[15:55] <jsivak> oh, straight proxy to the uwsgi HTTP port.
[15:56] <jsivak> (for the apache stuff)
[15:56] <jrwren> ya know, I never had luck wiht mod_uwsgi
[15:56] <jrwren> yeah, that is probably easier.
[15:56] <jrwren> slightly more overhead though :(
[15:56] <jsivak> yeah, I never tried it.. didn't like that *one* master Python instance was running the show
[15:57] <jsivak> plus, as rick_h_ and cmaloney can attest to, I *LIKE* having the sites/apps being as indepedent as possible.
[15:57] <jrwren> same here
[15:57] <jrwren> once you go uwsgi process, I feel it is hard to go back to web server integrated
[15:57] <jsivak> no kidding.
[15:57] <jrwren> nginx support uwsig protocol. I wonder if there is an apache module to just uwsgi protocol to uwsgi sockets
[15:58] <jsivak> dunno
[15:58] <jsivak> I really dislike going back to apache config files.. ;)
[15:58] <jrwren> same here.
[15:58] <jrwren> esp since I never really learned 2.4 access changes, and I dont like access_compat
[15:58] <jsivak> *but* I do miss the "mixed case URL" handling that apache offers..
[15:59] <jsivak> ugh.. 2.4's "requires"..  ugh
[15:59] <jrwren> ya know what would be a bit interesting... haproxy for uwsgi protocol
[15:59] <jsivak> hmm.. not sure.. I almost ALWAYS want nginx "in front" to handle all of the goofy proxy/url/redirect things.. SSL too, even though latest haproxy supports SSL now
[16:00] <jsivak> with our projects we need to great "glamour" URLs quite often.
[16:02] <jrwren> haproxy excells at goofy proxy/url/redirect things :)
[16:02] <jrwren> haproxy does not excel at ssl :)
[16:02] <jrwren> but its in beta ;)
[16:02] <jsivak> its not nice making the redirect rules with "variables" in them.. I have to use "if" sometimes in the nginx conf..
[16:03] <jsivak> yeah, until 1.5 goes "gold" I wasn't going to try the SSL support in haproxy
[16:03] <jsivak> .. but nginx does it well enough for us.. our load's aren't crazy high, so we can afford the overhead.. but I *LOVE* have all SSL handled at the front door and not at the web workers.
[16:04] <jrwren> what kind of apps you hosting with uwsgi?
[16:04] <jrwren> same here. nginx works great for me/us
[16:04] <jsivak> have you had to deal with 'mixed-case' URL's? (or normalizing mixed-case URLs)
[16:05] <jrwren> no
[16:05] <jrwren> everything, well, 99% of what I do is machine to machine.
[16:05] <jsivak> its on my radar; I'm sure to get bit by it someday.. we have IIS servers as well, and people get lazy with their URLs.
[16:05] <jsivak> lucky you.
[16:05] <jsivak> we invite people for surveys..
[16:06] <jrwren> is there some mixed case url recent issue?
[16:06] <jrwren> why would you get hit?
[16:07] <jsivak> Oh, someone could print an URL invite like "http://s.morpace.com/VISITus"
[16:07] <bookiebot> http://is.gd/KDiLF2 - Interviewer Server - Error
[16:07] <jsivak> if that went to an nginx system, then the url may not redirect/map correctly.
[16:08] <jsivak> (without 'admin' intervention).. trying to avoid work whenever possible. :)
[16:11] <jrwren> just going for IIS compatility?
[16:11] <jrwren> AFAIK, that is true of apache too
[16:11] <jrwren> path_info has been case sensitive forever.
[16:11] <jrwren> in fact, even case sensitive in IIS if it is an application
[16:12] <jrwren> its just not case sensitive because NTFS is not case sensitive
[16:12] <jrwren> an asp.net application would treat it case sensitive in IIS afaik
[16:12] <jsivak> I thought that apache had an option/mode to process URL's in a case insenstive manner.. nginx chose not to for performance reasons.
[16:12] <jsivak> in IIS we've only used classic ASP, so we've been able to "ride" on the case-insenstive wagon there.
[16:13] <jsivak> I think I've see the case issue in one of the .NET apps we inherited recently..
[16:13] <jrwren> yeah, i think I'm wrong about .NET
[16:14] <jrwren> mod spelling in apache :)
[16:17] <Havenstance2> so when is the release time for 14.04? cuz holy shit #ubuntu is blowing up with people asking about it already
[16:19] <jrwren> lol
[16:19] <jrwren> patience.
[16:19] <jrwren> just wait until tomorrow
[16:20] <Havenstance2> im good :)
[16:20] <Havenstance2> I'm just finding it comical that they have it in their topic and people are still asking haha
[16:20] <jrwren> cdimage.ubuntu.com is DDOS
[16:20] <greg-g> go back in time and get the last beta
[16:21] <greg-g> the diff between the last beta and release is minimal, there's rarely some weird install issue found/fixed between them
[16:21] <jrwren> do-release-upgrade
[16:21] <jrwren> most folks aren't devs and don't understand that its the same thing greg-g
[16:21] <jrwren> most folks think there is magic in the release version.
[16:21] <Havenstance2> do you guys know how to make mdadm monitor the raid and email on a status change? I have the email part setup, configured, and I can get test messages from the raid
[16:21] <jrwren> they are wrong. it isn't magic, it is extra love.
[16:22] <Havenstance2> but if i unplug to simulate failure nothing happens
[16:22] <greg-g> jrwren: I assumed Havenstance2 wasn't in the category referred to as 'most folks'
[16:22] <jrwren> Havenstance2: i do not know that exactly.  I know smartmontools is pretty good at watching disk health
[16:22] <jrwren> greg-g: nah, definitely not.
[16:23] <Havenstance2> greg-g, I understand the difference in Beta and Release candidates, all the RC is is a BETA that's been approved for release :)
[16:23] <jrwren> all a release is, is a beta that has been approvate for release.
[16:23] <Havenstance2> i've evne played with 14.04 in test machines and I love it
[16:23] <greg-g> "Alright, change that number and regen the iso!"
[16:23] <Havenstance2> yup that's about it lol
[16:23] <Havenstance2> some companies even just rename the same iso lol
[16:24] <jsivak> .. one step closer to "rolling relase".. heh heh.. (Arch user)
[16:24] <greg-g> fully automated release based on scm tags is the only one true way
[16:56] <greg-g> jrwren: coffee is my current upper of choice.
[16:56] <jrwren> better than alternatives. :)
[16:56] <greg-g> :)
[16:56] <jrwren> I do fear I'm on the border line of it effecting greater health
[16:57] <jrwren> I'd like to get better
[16:57] <greg-g> I've got other shit to deal with first
[16:57] <jrwren> ha! don't we all
[16:57] <greg-g> like, that whole exercise thing
[16:57] <jrwren> I did an hour on a stationary bike last night :)
[16:57] <jrwren> I need to do it more than once a week.
[16:57] <jrwren> I stopped drinking many beers every night of the week.
[16:58] <jrwren> I thank spring. I'm emerging from winter blues.
[16:58] <greg-g> in 2010? 2011? I did a 10k in 50ish minutes. Now, shit, no idea how slow I'd be.
[16:58] <jrwren> WOW! that is fast.
[16:58] <greg-g> I rocked it.
[16:58] <mrgoodcat> in 2010 i did 5k in ~18
[16:58] <jrwren> wait wait... ages?
[16:58] <greg-g> I was 29?
[16:58] <jrwren> greg-g is like 32, so he might have been 28 in 2010 :p
[16:58] <mrgoodcat> i was 18
[16:58] <jrwren> I was close.
[16:59] <mrgoodcat> and in high school cross country team
[16:59] <jrwren> hahah, yeah, mrgoodcat yours doesn't count :p
[16:59] <greg-g> mrgoodcat: I was gonna say, that's a good HS time ;)
[16:59]  * greg-g did XC in HS
[16:59] <jrwren> i mean, awesome for you, but its not the same as being a middle aged man.
[16:59] <mrgoodcat> haha
[16:59] <mrgoodcat> no i'm pretty young
[16:59] <greg-g> take that "mr" out of your nick!
[16:59] <greg-g> ;)
[17:00] <mrgoodcat> i was more of a swimmer than a cross country runner though
[17:00] <goodcat> my cross country time was more of a result of my swimming conditioning than actually being on the XC team
[17:01] <jrwren> hahahaha
[17:01] <jrwren> <3 nick change
[17:01] <greg-g> :) :)
[17:01] <greg-g> goodcat: or I guess "mrgoodkitten" would also work :P
[17:01] <goodcat> good cat still keeps the reference intact
[17:02] <goodcat> so i'm good with it
[17:02] <greg-g> :)
[17:02] <jrwren> my ability to run was/is entirely dependent on my bike conditioning
[17:02] <jrwren> i've NEVER been a runner
[17:02] <goodcat> biking++
[17:02] <goodcat> road or mtb?
[17:02] <jrwren> both
[17:02] <greg-g> I was a runner first, other things second.
[17:02] <goodcat> i prefer mtb
[17:02] <jrwren> i used to prefer mtb, but I learned to appreciate road
[17:03] <jrwren> mainly for my commute :p
[17:03] <goodcat> i like road for a different type of conditioning
[17:03] <goodcat> but mtb is best
[17:03] <goodcat> i love the challenge of mtb
[17:03] <jrwren> which is on the road, but its not really RAOD BIKING
[17:03] <goodcat> what bike do you ride?
[17:03] <jrwren> Havenstance2: its official http://releases.ubuntu.com/14.04/
[17:03] <bookiebot> http://is.gd/5PDYGK - Ubuntu 14.04 LTS (Trusty Tahr)
[17:04] <jrwren> right now, I don't ride a bike. I totalled my old Trek830
[17:04] <jrwren> I might not get back into biking.
[17:04] <jrwren> my kid isn't interested in it, and I like to spend time with the kid.
[17:04] <jrwren> i was hoping we'd bike together, but she is a big wuss
[17:04] <goodcat> ahhhh totaled? how?
[17:05] <brousch> jrwren: How old is she?
[17:05] <goodcat> i ride an older diamondback but it's the equivalent of the overdrive carbon
[17:06] <goodcat> hardtail, 26.5, full XTR equipment
[17:06] <goodcat> i want a 29er though
[17:06] <jrwren> brousch: she is 7, TODAY!!!
[17:06] <goodcat> and a full suspension would be nice
[17:06] <greg-g> jrwren: nice, happy birthday to her!
[17:06] <goodcat> FOX locking front shock
[17:06] <jrwren> getting 50Mbit download on ubuntu torrent :)
[17:07] <greg-g> niiiice
[17:07] <goodcat> jrwren.get_daughters()[0].happy_birthday()
[17:07] <jrwren> so... i love mtn biking, but I'm not a gear head.
[17:07] <jrwren> I love hving an old shit bike
[17:07] <goodcat> well my bike is 2 years younger than i am
[17:07] <goodcat> so it's not exactly new
[17:08] <goodcat> but it's been taken care of excellently by my dad
[17:08] <Havenstance2> jrwren, sweet, time to setup a vm and check it out :)
[17:08] <greg-g> heh, my bike in grad school was as old as I was
[17:08] <greg-g> Miyata 310
[17:08] <greg-g> thing was an awesome fixie
[17:08] <brousch> jrwren: Last year we did a ride-along bike. My son likes that more than riding his own
[17:09] <jrwren> 70Mbit now :)
[17:09] <greg-g> now I'm riding a Lemond Zurich, forget which year, but near the last they made.
[17:09] <greg-g> Rowan *loves* the ibert
[17:09] <greg-g> get to chat with him/tell him the things he pointing at with "what's that?!"
[17:10] <brousch> ah, no this was half a bike you connect to your bike, so the kid gets to peddle
[17:10] <greg-g> yeah, those are neat too
[17:10] <greg-g> he's not there yet :)
[17:11] <goodcat> brousch: I HAD ONE OF THOSE
[17:11] <goodcat> that's the best
[17:11] <goodcat> I loved riding with my dad like that
[17:11] <brousch> ibert does look fun though. Ours is like the back part of this http://collegecyclery.biz/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/ibert_02.jpg
[17:11] <goodcat> mine was just like that
[17:12] <brousch> We're trying to transition him to his own bike this year (6-7)
[17:12] <greg-g> the worst part of the ibert is you need a bike with the right geometry, mine is just barely off where I have to splay my knees a bit at the top of their arch
[17:13] <greg-g> doing 5-10 miles is fine, but I'm not going to do a century with it :)
[17:13] <jrwren> lilly loved the trail-a-bike, i thought she'd want to learn solo, but alas :(
[17:14] <jrwren> sharing ubuntu torrents at 5Mbit... becuase comcast doesn't have limits anymore :)
[17:18] <brousch> jrwren: Have you tried Scratch yet?
[17:18] <jrwren> yes.
[17:18] <jrwren> but not since she has gotten very good at reading.
[17:18] <jrwren> We are going to be reviewing a raspberry pi programming book for pakt
[17:19] <brousch> Yeah, reading skills seem ready now
[17:19] <jrwren> yup. good reader now
[17:19] <brousch> RPi comes with Scratch
[17:20] <brousch> but a lot of books also use pygame
[17:29] <goodcat> comcast doesn't have limits anymore?
[17:30] <greg-g> monthly bandwidth usage ones
[17:30] <goodcat> oh
[17:30] <goodcat> i was gonna say....
[17:30] <goodcat> i'm definitely still speed limited
[17:30] <jrwren> lol, of course
[17:31] <jrwren> no more 250GB/month cap
[17:45] <jsivak> anyone using wwsgi to host a Pylons/Pyramid site with the number of uwsgi workers > 1?
[17:47] <jsivak> I'm looking at logging messages to a file and it just dawned on me that uwsgi with workers > 1 means that I've got multiple processes logging to the same file.
[17:47] <jsivak> Was curious if this has caused issues/prob's with anyone.
[17:55] <jrwren> i think it cna cause issues, yes.
[17:55] <jrwren> this is why syslog is good :)
[17:55] <jsivak> I want the logging to stay "local" to each webapp.
[17:55] <jsivak> Are the problems with "corrupt/messy" logs, or are they more "sinister" than that?
[17:56] <jsivak> I haven't seen any problems to-date on our sites.
[17:56] <jrwren> you just using python logging module
[17:57] <jsivak> we've been using uwsgi for a few years now, so it's obviously not happening often, but I'm starting to use the  "spooling" function of uwsgi and its raised my awareness of multiple processes logging to the same file.
[17:57] <jsivak> (been reading about it all day.. I think my eyes are starting to send log messages..)
[17:58] <goodcat> jsivak: i think bookie maybe?
[17:59] <jsivak> goodcat: to find out more links/info?
[18:16] <goodcat> jsivak: what?
[18:17] <goodcat> you asked who is using pyramids with >1 worker
[18:17] <goodcat> i think bookie is
[18:19] <jsivak> goodcat: last I heard rick_h_ was running it with gunicorn, but I'll check with him when he's back from pycon
[18:21] <jsivak> .. for posterity: it looks like I can either setup logging SocketHandlers or just have the webapp dump its log to stdout/stderr and let uwsgi handle it..
[18:23] <jrwren> http://i.imgur.com/44rFwrT.gif
[18:24] <goodcat> i wonder why link wasn't shortened?...
[18:25] <goodcat> no title attribute
[18:25] <goodcat> thread died
[18:25]  * goodcat off to code :)
[18:31] <brousch> They drove?
[18:32] <jsivak> brousch: I thought they flew
[18:34] <goodcat> no idea
[18:34] <goodcat> i was just trying to explain why he wasn't online
[18:34] <jsivak> goodcat: you're supposed to be coding..
[18:35] <jsivak> :P
[18:35] <goodcat> i'm done
[18:35] <goodcat> it was easy
[18:35] <jsivak> lol.. then it wasn't coding..
[18:35] <goodcat> well, it works
[18:35] <brousch> def do_everything(): pass
[18:35] <goodcat> i'm still trying to decide how to handle it
[18:35] <goodcat> i just made a default no title message
[18:36] <goodcat> but maybe i should check mime type or something
[18:36] <goodcat> or google reverse image search on posted images
[18:37] <goodcat> wouldn't it be cool to reverse image search on a posted image and return the first google result?
[18:38] <goodcat> would be zacgorman.com for that image
[18:38] <goodcat> which is good because he is the original author
[18:55] <goodcat> .reload
[18:55] <bookiebot> reloaded 22 plugins in 0.009063 seconds
[18:55] <goodcat> http://i.imgur.com/44rFwrT.gif
[18:55] <goodcat> :)
[18:56] <Havenstance2> whats a good solution for offsite backups of files?
[18:56] <goodcat> jsivak brousch: bookiebot checks content-type header now and only works on text/html
[18:56] <goodcat> Havenstance2: what platform?
[18:56] <Havenstance2> goodcat, zentyal,
[18:56] <goodcat> damn
[18:57] <goodcat> well backblaze is sweet but winders only
[18:57] <Havenstance2> I want to store a copy of the files in the storage drives to the boss' server at home.
[18:57] <Havenstance2> I checked out urbackup but the linux client software seems to be a bitch to get running.
[18:57] <dzho> everybody got their torrents running?
[18:57] <Havenstance2> dzho, already downloaded but seeding currently
[18:57] <goodcat> oh wait you want hosted or not hosted?
[18:57] <dzho> Havenstance2++
[18:58] <Havenstance2> goodcat, unhosted, don't want any 3rd parties involved
[18:58] <goodcat> well i was gonna say spideroak but nope
[18:58] <goodcat> rsync ftw
[18:59] <goodcat> just rsync it
[18:59] <goodcat> backing up to home server is going to be SLOW though
[18:59] <brousch> Havenstance2: crashplan
[19:06] <Havenstance2> brousch, thank you. goodcat yeah i know it will be slow. urbackup will work great for all the machines in the building to sync to the server, however the server needs someplace to sync to, the boss wants it at his house most of the files we have are just simple text files or word documents not too large generally
[19:18] <mathomastech> Anyone know how to pass a multiline string as an argument from the command line to a python file? It appears the interpret \n literally as \n instead of the new line charactor.
[19:19] <mathomastech> Examples:    python server.py "this is a test" "this is a\n multiline test"
[19:19] <brousch> That seems like the wrong way to do something
[19:20] <brousch> send it to a file and pass the file name?
[19:21] <mathomastech> That might be complicated. This is going to be running on a server where dozens of people may accessing it simultaniously. Each instance of the server.py file must be run uniquely.
[19:21] <mathomastech> And the passed in parameters will be mostly unique as well.
[19:24] <brousch> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/749049/passing-a-multi-line-string-as-an-argument-to-a-script-in-windows
[19:24] <mathomastech> I'm attempting to push most of the processing work of my app off to the server. As it is, the app sucks up network usage like crazy. Mostly just constant pinging. Attempting to have it act more like a socket where the background thread sends off of the info and just idle's until the server returns to info it needs
[19:26] <goodcat> mathomastech: get the data from stdin then `echo "line 1\nline2" | script.py`
[19:27] <goodcat> has the added benefit of allowing `cat input | script.py`
[19:27] <goodcat> time for class
[20:15] <rick_h_> jsivak: goodcat it's uwsgi with nginx up front in production
[20:15] <rick_h_> and waitress (pserve) in dev
[23:40] <cmaloney> man, i go dark from IRC for a bit and all heck breaks loose
[23:40] <rick_h_> lol
[23:40] <cmaloney> :)


[03:43] -lugito:#lubuntu-devel- [lubuntu-manual] tsimonq2 closed pull request #23: Start page for pulse audio volume control. (master...master) https://git.io/vxIQV
[22:51] <lubot2> alissonmoura was added by: alissonmoura
 Welcome!
 @tsimonq2, thank you!
 I'm new user on this system. I'm from Brasil
 @alissonmoura, é nós mano hahaha


[00:18] <lars_> hi all
[00:25] <SuperLag> http://pastie.org/7118426
[00:25] <SuperLag> is that something that will likely get fixed with another apt-get update, or is my install hosed now?
[01:09] <ryan_46> Hi. I just downloaded 13.04 and when I ran the burned DVD and selected try ubuntu it loaded fine but the entire screen was upside down. Mouse arrow pointed down instead of uo. Any reports of this and what if anything can I do? Ran DVD twice with same result.
[01:10] <bjsnider> maybe ctrl+alt+up
[01:11] <ryan_46> Up arrow?
[01:15] <ryan_46> cont+alt+up arrow only shows or unshows desktop in my 12.04.. The Desktop was exactly upside down. The top bar was on the bottom and the side bar on the right.
[01:36] <bjsnider> you can use xrandr to change the orientation
[01:36] <bjsnider> the commands are available on the web
[01:37] <ryan_46> Thanks bisnider. I will look into that.
[01:41] <ryan_46> bjsnider: sorry spelled your name wrong.
[01:52] <valorie> SuperLag: did you try apt-get -f install ?
[01:52] <valorie> your paste doesn't show that you did
[01:54] <SuperLag> valorie: yes, and that didn't fix anything
[01:55] <SuperLag> it wouldn't even progress forward
[01:57] <SuperLag> valorie: ugh. I'm a bonehead.
[01:57] <valorie> in that case, it would probably be a good idea to report that to the testing team
[01:57] <SuperLag> valorie: I didn't get that the 'apt-get -f install' was with no arguments
[01:57] <valorie> heh
[01:58] <SuperLag> valorie: did that, had to delete some duplicate references to the package in /usr/share/doc, and it went just fine
[01:58] <valorie> it seekretly means (to me) "just effing fix it"
[02:02] <bjsnider> i think the -f switch means fix
[02:02] <valorie> sure
[02:03] <valorie> :-)
[02:46] <ideasman_42> Hi, is there some document that gives rules for how license files should be included in a package upstream?
[02:47] <ideasman_42> I maintain a project and I need to include license files but I cant find some rules explaining how to do this
[02:47] <bjsnider> ideasman_42, you mean from a debian packaging standpoint?
[02:47] <ideasman_42> well this is for what we have in git/svn
[02:48] <ideasman_42> but Id like to follow debian/ubuntu guidelines
[02:48] <ryan_46> I am happy to report that it ran fine in a Virtualbox and also ran fine on another laptop.
[02:48] <ideasman_42> I can fine random docs on related topics..
[02:48] <ideasman_42> but not on details - so our project is GPLv2+
[02:48] <ideasman_42> but we have some BSD licensed code used in a subdir
[02:48] <bjsnider> ideasman_42, do you have a file in root called LICENSE?
[02:48] <ideasman_42> so how to express this?
[02:49] <ideasman_42> bjsnider, no, we have many license files :S
[02:49] <ideasman_42> example: ./extern/libmv/third_party/fast/LICENSE ./extern/carve/LICENSE.GPL2 ./scons/scons-LICENSE
[02:49] <bjsnider> ok, i think i know what you're asking
[02:50] <ideasman_42> someone complained we dont include all licenses,,, which may be so
[02:50] <ideasman_42> but Id like some kind of doc so we can conform to it
[02:50] <ideasman_42> rather then each dev do whatever they thing
[02:50] <ideasman_42> think*
[02:51] <bjsnider> ideasman_42, http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/dreq.en.html#copyright
[02:51] <bjsnider> the debian package can include license info on each file included in the source code if necessary and the syntax and whatnot are explained there
[02:51] <ideasman_42> bjsnider, is this the syntax
[02:51] <ideasman_42> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/copyright-format/1.0/
[02:52] <bjsnider> yes
[02:53] <ideasman_42> bjsnider, so this means if we copy some file owned by some other project - say glib for eg, we can inclide this here?
[02:53] <bjsnider> furthermore, you can include the actual licenses themselves in the debian/docs file, just put the location of those files in the source code in that file and they will be installed on the user's machine
[02:53] <ideasman_42> Files: some/ode/func.c, Copyright: original author
[02:54] <bjsnider> yeah exactly
[02:54] <ideasman_42> cool thx
[02:54] <bjsnider> some of the copyright files can be very long
[02:54] <ideasman_42> Ill mail our list- probably we'll dp this
[02:54] <ideasman_42> yeah. we'll incldue licenses too
[02:54] <ideasman_42> (we already do)
[02:55] <bjsnider> the latest copyright file format is machine-readable and is checked during the building phase so if it's wrong it will error out
[02:55] <ideasman_42> good to know :)
[02:56] <bjsnider> incidentally on some projects, and it sounds like yours is one, most of the packaging work is getting the details of the copyright file done correctly
[08:12] <elky> is anyone else having the compiz overlay task switcher thingie spontaneously appearing when using their touchpad?
[08:26] <alankila> elky: yes.
[08:26] <alankila> it accidentally reads 2-finger gesture as 3-finger gesture
[08:27] <elky> elantech touchpad?
[08:27] <alankila> apple touchpad on macbook
[08:27] <alankila> my conclusion is that the touch stack has been incorrectly designed. It appears to perform a context-free analysis of the nature of the gesture rather than classifying it from beginning of touch and then keeping the classification until touch's end
[08:28] <alankila> so something that starts as 2-finger scroll can randomly turn into 3 finger gesture because due to noise it analyses an extra fingertip. This made my attempts of reading web pages impossible because every now and then the task switcher would make the browser vanish while I was using it
[08:29] <elky> yeah, i'm having that occasionally too
[08:29] <alankila> it happened for a few days and I installed gnome 3 because it is not possible to disable the 3-finger gestures entirely.
[08:29] <alankila> gnome only supports up to 2 finger scroll, so it doesn't suffer from this problem.
[08:31] <alankila> overall the only solution to getting touchpad good is to do the analysis and wait a while when more than one fingertip is present to make sure that if user intended to hit the touchpad with all 4 fingers say there is no preceding gesture of 2 or 3 tips. After that, the gesture must be classified as 4-finger gesture even if user only held a single fingertip on the touchpad.
[08:31] <alankila> so that the gesture doesn't randomly mutate into actions user did not intend.
[08:33] <alankila> apple's software does it like this and it works every time. It is really amazing how well it works, it never seems to misclassify gestures, so I took some time studying the apparent behavior of OS X. In particular they do the classification at the beginning of touch and keep it as long as any fingers at all are present on the touchpad, so that prevents the 2/3 fingers random flakiness. It is an innovation worth adopting
[08:34] <alankila> but I also think that in general it is too difficult to reliably detect the number of tips hitting the touchpad so there's going to have to be some kind of delay or extended sampling period which must make an improved guess for the number of tips
[08:36] <alankila> at least on unity it was pretty hard to get 4 tips detected reliably, so I pretty much gave up trying to use them at all.
[08:38] <alankila> it seems that 1-tip gesture is allowed to transform to 2-tip gesture if the 1 tip is not moving. Still, stuff like that is just details.
[08:39] <alankila> on linux, though, 1-tip gesture transforms to 2-tip gesture regardless of movement. I think a lot of work has gone on OS X side on trying to get thesse gestures to be resilient
[08:45] <alankila> in any case if canonical can't make the 2/3 finger flakiness fixed, there should be no gestures > 2 tips in unity at all. The current state is so broken that the desktop is going to be very frustrating for touchpad users.
[09:16] <scotty^> !raring
[09:19] <scotty^> Are there still plans to pull mesa 9.1 or 9.1.1 into Raring?
[09:20] <ikonia> if it's not in now....I'd doubt it
[09:21] <scotty^> hmm
[09:22] <scotty^> So no graphics support (apart from KMS) for Intel "Haswell" CPUs?
[09:24] <ikonia> no idea.
[09:25] <scotty^> That will be a shame.
[09:26] <scotty^> Is it OK to say I am dissapointed?
[09:29] <alankila> Life is imperfect. Especially open source life. No doubt the driver related work will make it into 13.04 in some form, perhaps it is added to 13.04.1
[09:30] <jpds> alankila: There won't be a 13.04.1.
[09:30] <alankila> Oh. Well, shows how much I know. I mostly use LTS's.
[09:31] <alankila> though ... I was under the impression that all these things got updates over time?
[09:32] <yofel> sure, but not major new software versions as updates
[09:33] <k1l> alankila: .1 releases are only for LTS
[09:34] <k1l> alankila: beginning with 13.04 the not-LTS releases will only have 9 month of support. so you upgrade to the next version instead of having the LTS-style point releases
[09:36] <alankila> yeah, well, 6 months is in any case quite long time to wait for something that you'd call a driver, I guess.
[09:36] <alankila> but perhaps intel will provide usable packages for 13.04, they seem to have taken a more active role lately again
[09:40] <scotty^> It also means that  we will be completely out of luck for the just released AMD "Richland" A-series APU's.
[09:40] <alankila> there's a lot to recommend about the "rolling release" model, at least in that it's possible to get drivers now rather than at point of next release.
[09:42] <alankila> still, I envy windows for the ease of getting new stuff going on it.
[09:43] <scotty^> Yeah, we might no even have KMS for Richland unless the kernel team takes the unlikely step of backporting the patches from 3.9-rc4.
[09:44] <scotty^> Although at least there you can use AMD's Catalyst driver, similar to on Windows.
[09:44] <scotty^> There is no such alternative for Intel.
[09:45] <elky> Also, why on earth am I being asked if i want to "install" websites?
[09:46] <elky> With no "click this to find out what the heck this means" button or anything
[09:46] <alankila> "Copy a link to some launcher" might be more appropriate phrasing.
[09:54] <elky> oh gods, is that why i have the launchpad icon appear whenever i go to launchpad?
[09:54] <elky> can i get rid of that? and can i stop it from asking me?
[09:57] <k1l> elky: shut down the webapps in privacy settings in systemsettings
[09:58] <elky> i don't see this option...
[09:59] <k1l> ahh sorry. it was in unity-tweak-tool
[09:59] <elky> You kid me.
[10:00] <elky> I have to install that to get rid of this?
[10:01] <k1l> im sure there is a setting anywhere in the configs. but that is the easiest way, imho
[10:05] <elky> I hope there is, because we'll be needing to tell people how to stop this every 90 seconds on release day.
[10:09] <elky> Aha, it's a completely separate firefox addon.
[10:10] <elky> or 2?
[10:13] <elky> There's "Unity Desktop Integration" which "provides unity integration features to sites in firefox" and "Unity Website integration" which has no description at all.
[10:24] <k1l> i thought the tweak settings were just linked to d/gconf settings. so there could be a command for that.
[11:50] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[13:17] <varikonniemi> does uck work with raring?
[16:37] <Noize> !help
[16:37] <Noize> Where can I report a bug?
[16:38] <philinux> Noize: you need a launchpad account
[16:38] <Noize> got one
[16:38] <Noize> just submit under where though
[16:39] <philinux> Noize: easiest way is from the terminal. ubuntu-bug packaagename
[16:39] <philinux> for instance ubuntu-bug nautilus
[16:39] <Noize> not sure of the packagename though, basically when I close my laptop lid and open it the screen turns all the way dimmed, until I hit undim
[16:39] <philinux> Noize: this way it collects all relevant data
[16:40] <philinux> Noize: that the kernel. so it would be ubuntu-bug linux
[16:40] <Noize> ok
[16:40] <philinux> sorted
[16:47] <varikonniemi> ok
[16:47] <varikonniemi> uck does not work with raring
[16:47] <varikonniemi> nor does it work with LTS
[16:47] <varikonniemi> so i assume it is just legacy thats not maintained
[17:33] <dveim> hello
[17:33] <dveim> i have interesting bug with volume slider
[17:33] <dveim> when i move it, volume does not changes
[17:40] <bjsnider> that's nice to know. maybe someone will report a bug about that sometime
[18:15] <dingdongface> how can i change what action is taken when i insert a disc in raring
[18:15] <dingdongface> raring ringtail i mean.
[18:41] <bcbc2> Anyone with an intel card whose brightness controls have stopped working, please +1 on bug 1105604 as it's been broken since January. Thanks
[18:51] <AndChat|618624> Hi I am trying to install a package on 13.04 but apt doesn't see it, it is in the ppa but doesn't have a version listed for 13.04
[18:52] <SonikkuAmerica> Then you can pretty much forget it if it doesn't have a raring header on it
[18:52] <SonikkuAmerica> (Hate to sound blunt)
[18:53] <AndChat|618624> So no way of making it use the 12.10 .deb?
[18:53] <Pici> You could ask the owner of the PPA to put together a raring package
[18:55] <jtaylor> you can add the quantal ppa to the sources.list
[18:55] <jtaylor> this will work fine in many cases
[18:55] <jtaylor> depends on the package
[18:55] <SonikkuAmerica> Many, but I don't necessarily recommend it
[18:56] <bazhang> it's a hit and miss
[18:57] <bazhang> what package AndChat|618624
[18:57] <AndChat|618624> Ubuntu-zfs
[18:58] <bazhang> yeah I'd wait on that one
[18:58] <AndChat|618624> OK thanks all, for the info, guess I will have to wait
[21:23] <MoPac> Hello -- I'm having some vexing trouble with a Desktop Wall setting in CCSM, and I'm wondering if there's someone here who's proficient in Compiz who might help me diagnose it
[21:23] <MoPac> It's causing the failure of edge flip
[21:52] <MoPac> Also, my mouse sensitivity/accel settings have become amnesic with the last week or so's Raring updates
[22:25] <opti> i've been trying to install 13.04 dailies for a couple of weeks, the installer locks up when you click continue on the second screen (where you choose download packages etc)
[22:26] <opti> anyone know a workaround?
[22:34] <MoPac> opti: Could you be more specific about what the error looks like?
[22:52] <opti> it doesnt look like anything, i think the partitioner just locks up
[22:52] <opti> it just greys out the continue button and you get an endless 'busy' mouse pointer
[22:53] <opti> no errors in the syslog
[22:55] <opti> i've got a theory i'll test later, i'm guessing if i unplug all the hard disks except the one i want to install on, i bet it works then :p
[23:18] <graingert> Firefox seems to be complaining that I have an outdated flash. Currently I'm running <IP_ADDRESS>5 the latest available for download


[01:35] <mneptok> this looks like the work of the wiggler.
[01:38] <jdong> is "the wiggler" some new slang you kids thought up?
[01:40] <mneptok> *blink*
[01:40] <Pici> Is that someone who has a wii?
[01:40] <Pici> Or is that "the waggler"?
[01:40] <mneptok> "you kids?"
[01:40] <mneptok> i am, no exaggeration, old enough to be your father, you know. all that's missing is the black suit and the fanatical devotion to the Emperor.
[01:58] <Mez> !link 118516
[02:00] <mneptok> !zelda 88488209
[02:02] <Mez> meh, was meant for another bot
[02:06] <Pici> Sorry Mario, the bot is in another castle?
[02:07] <mneptok> The Legend Of Zelda: The Ocarina Of Spastic Colons
[02:08] <mneptok> (great game, if you have enough plastic sheeting)
[02:08] <Pici> I don't believe I've played that one.
[02:09] <mneptok> if you want easier victory, start the baked bean regimen now.
[02:14] <jdong> Pici: I think I played that once when we were playing for money and I was losing.
[02:14] <jdong> oops (the above is not to be used as a confession in a court of law)
[02:17] <elky_work> mneptok: correction, you're old enough to be that weird uncle everyone avoids at family events.
[05:53] <Myrtti> ah - so funny
[06:01] <Myrtti> death by snoo snoo.
[07:04] <Myrtti> http://ihasahotdog.com/2008/09/22/cute-puppy-pictures-stick-iz-purfect-day/ <--
[07:32] <jussi01> Anything interesting happen in the ~2 hours I was disconnected?
[07:34] <elky_work> Myrtti: gee, this sounds awful familiar... http://punditkitchen.com/2008/09/13/political-pictures-police-help-repressed/
[07:36] <Myrtti> elky_work: lol
[07:37] <elky_work> http://punditkitchen.com/2008/09/09/political-pictures-rnc-oppression-musical/ too
[07:46] <Myrtti> I HATE MY COMPUTER
[07:46] <Myrtti> I did updates on intrepid and my mouse became unresponsive for 10 minutesx
[07:46] <Myrtti> ;_______;
[08:06] <Myrtti> pleia2, elky_work ping
[08:06] <elky_work> Myrtti: pong?
[08:06] <Myrtti> what do you think of the nick slamFIST on -women?
[08:07] <Myrtti> someone just asked me if it's a nickname we'd like to have there
[08:07] <elky_work> i'm not in there from here.
[08:07] <Myrtti> My answer was "as long as (s)he hasn't done anything wrong on the channel, I wouldn't jump into conclusions"
[08:07] <Myrtti> he hasn't done *anything* yet
[08:07] <elky_work> that's fair to me too. they could be into boxing for all i know
[08:08] <Myrtti> has been asking about Photoshop CS3 with Wine on other channels, but nothing on -women
[08:08] <Myrtti> yup
[08:08] <elky_work> i'd ask if and when they speak in -women.
[08:09] <Myrtti> yup
[09:04] <Flannel> Myrtti: alpha software!
[09:05] <Myrtti> I hate this I hate this I hate this I hate this I hate this I HATE THIS
[09:36] <Tm_T> FYI once again some school shooting in Finland it seems
[10:08] <Dave2> o_O
[10:09]  * Flannel can't think of a witty retort to send him in factoid form.
[10:16] <jussi01> Flannel: you could have just done: !amaranth > lifeless
[10:16] <jussi01> :P
[10:16] <Flannel> True, true.
[13:51]  * Pici sighs
[13:52] <ikonia> seems messy at the moment
[13:52] <Pici> Indeed.
[13:52] <Tm_T> wut
[13:52] <Pici> Cleanup in aisle #u
[13:52] <ikonia> please please
[16:08] <popey> 16:08:02 [freenode] -!- Eeyore-Jr<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:08] <popey> does that belong to anyone here?
[16:11] <jussi01> not that I know of
[16:12] <ikonia> @bansearch <IP_ADDRESS>
[16:12] <ikonia> thats not the right format
[16:13] <Tm_T> aww
[16:13] <ikonia> @btlogin
[16:14] <ikonia> boot them
[16:14] <ikonia> two guys usiung the same ip address in #ubuntu and ubuntu+1 both running bots
[16:14] <Tm_T> ye
[16:15] <Tm_T> nicks?
[16:15] <ikonia> Eeyore-Jr abnd Ahmuck
[16:17] <popey> it joined -uk too
[16:17] <ikonia> gone in +1
[16:18] <ikonia> now kubuntu
[16:19] <ikonia> gone
[16:19] <stdin> are you sure they are actually bots?
[16:19] <ikonia> nope
[16:19] <ikonia> didn't respond to pm#s
[16:19] <Seeker`> "supybot" tends to imply that
[16:20] <stdin> Seeker`: not always
[16:20] <ikonia> they are joining channels so they should be "active" to respond to pm's
[16:20] <Seeker`> stdin: "tends to imply" not "definately means"
[16:20] <Tm_T> well, only remove ... (;)
[16:20] <Pici> ctcp version replies as Konversation for Eeyore-Jr
[16:20] <ikonia> I band forwarded here to explain if they are bots
[16:21] <ikonia> one of them has logged off now that he's been kicked from all channels
[16:21] <ikonia> the other is now in non-ubuntu channels
[16:21] <ikonia> if they are active enough to login/out, change channels then they should be able to respond to pm in some way
[16:22] <stdin> maybe you/we should ask Eeyore if it's their bot?
[16:23] <Tm_T> Pici: ctcp version is very inaccurate
[16:23] <ikonia> stdin: pm sent - he's away though
[16:23] <Pici> Tm_T: I know it can be manipulated
[16:23] <Tm_T> Pici: for example, try me...
[16:24] <Seeker`> :O
[16:24] <ikonia> Tm_T hyperion ?
[16:24] <Seeker`> ikonia: what command did you type?
[16:24] <Tm_T> ikonia: erp...
[16:25] <ikonia>  /version
[16:25] <Seeker`> /ctcp Tm_T version
[16:25] <ikonia> ahh
[16:25] <Tm_T>  /version tells server version typically
[16:25] <ikonia> yes, just twigged that
[16:25] <ikonia> Tm_T: thats a better response
[16:25] <Tm_T> heh
[16:26] <ikonia> well, they have both logged off now
[16:26] <Seeker`> Eeyore is back in -uk
[16:27] <ikonia> still not responding to a pm
[16:27] <popey> he is being talked to and responding
[16:28] <Seeker`> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/49715/
[16:28] <ikonia> so it would seem
[16:31] <ikonia> it may sound nuts - but I'm still not convined due to the way there was a.) 2 of them b.) joining channels as they where kicked from others
[16:32] <Seeker`> the responses are almost certainly human, imo
[16:32] <ikonia> I don't doubt that
[16:32] <ikonia> but they both logged out and back in
[16:32] <ikonia> I'm wondering if now both went and one's come back he's at the console
[16:34] <Seeker`> looks like he wont be visiting -uk again any time soon
[16:34] <ikonia> oh
[16:34] <stdin> imo, using "because america is free" is a poor excuse in -uk ;)
[16:35] <Seeker`> "because america is free" is a poor excuse anywhere
[16:35] <stdin> but especially in a local specific non US channel
[16:35] <ikonia> well, it wasn't a great response to a civil question
[16:38] <ikonia> he's taking the michael now, he's in #kubuntu-kde4
[16:39] <Seeker`> what is he saying in there?
[16:40] <ikonia> same as the other channels
[16:40] <ikonia> nothing
[16:40] <ikonia> just idling
[16:40] <jussi01> asking a legit question...
[16:40] <ikonia> oh wait  he has a "question" now
[16:40] <Seeker`> how much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
[16:54] <jussi01> for the record, IMHO we really dont need to follow "suspects" (ie. this bot guy) everywhere - all these places have ops, who, beleive it or not, are actually able to do their job. :)
[16:55] <ikonia> concur - but you don't know who's active/not active
[16:55] <bazhang> heh
[16:55] <ikonia> eg: this guy was swapping channels like mad - in what looked like an attempt to find one with no-one active to watch him
[16:55] <ikonia> (in my opinion)
[16:55] <ikonia> the other channels I was in already
[17:08]  * Pici gives up
[17:08] <ikonia> Pici: what's up ?
[17:09] <Pici> ikonia: Just trying to get people to speak english in #U
[17:09] <ikonia> yes, it still seems to be going on
[17:10] <ikonia> big influx of non-english speakers today (more than normal)
[20:46] <SWAT> ompaul: .ie would so rock
[20:47] <ompaul> SWAT, it could and Mark could hire U2 for the friday night gig ;-) hehehe
[20:49] <mneptok> The Pogues would be more fun. i've never caught a tooth spat from a stage.
[20:49] <SWAT> mneptok: are you going to attend the next uds?
[20:50] <SWAT> note: I would have nothing against a uds in .nl, except for the fact that I've been there already
[20:54] <mneptok> SWAT: in Mt View? no.
[20:56] <Seeker`> where is the next UDS?
[20:58] <mneptok> Mt View
[20:58] <SWAT> see previous statement
[20:58] <SWAT> mneptok: I'm mising you already
[21:00] <ompaul> mneptok, now there is a thought already
[21:00] <ompaul> thin lizzy reformed
[21:00] <ompaul> we could manage that :)
[21:01] <mneptok> Phil Lynott will need some strong encouragement. like voodoo.
[21:01] <ompaul> mneptok, they have a setup that works
[21:01] <ompaul> the bass player from evensense
[21:01] <ompaul> or whatever it is called
[21:02] <ompaul> john sykes guitars and vocals
[21:02] <ompaul> and scott gorham
[21:02] <ompaul> with some $drummer
[21:02] <ompaul> all fun
[22:17] <elky> mneptok, having a lan party? :Þ
[22:18] <jdong> have you guys had any fun with people getting hysterical over intel gigabit bricking yet?
[22:18] <jdong> "bricking", I should say.
[22:19] <jdong> just in case ubuntu+1 acts up over it, feel free to link to / steal from this forums sticky I posted on the topic: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5841972#post5841972
[22:21] <elky> suggest a factoid
[22:24] <jdong> !intelbrick is Concerned about Intrepid breaking Intel e1000e gigabit adaptors? See http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5843083 for a more realistic assessment.
[22:24] <jdong> ahhhhhh bot assault!
[22:24] <jdong> something like that; I am too hungry to be eloquent :)
[22:25] <elky> !intelbrick is Concerned about Intrepid breaking Intel e1000e gigabit adaptors? See http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5843083 for a more realistic assessment.
[22:26] <elky> ubot5 is still alive, it seems
[22:26] <elky> jpds?
[22:27] <PriceChild> !no intelbrick is <reply> Concerned about Intrepid breaking Intel e1000e gigabit adaptors? See  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5843083 for a more realistic assessment.
[22:34] <Seeker`> eww, why does it ask me to log in to view that thread
[22:40] <PriceChild> hmmm... that's to the staff forum
[22:40] <PriceChild> *fixes*
[22:40] <PriceChild> !no intelbrick is <reply> Concerned about Intrepid breaking Intel e1000e gigabit adaptors? See http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5841972#post5841972 for a more realistic assessment.
[22:40] <PriceChild> Seeker`: try that
[22:47] <Seeker`> PriceChild: much better
[23:02] <WastePotato> Anyone seen ompaul?
[23:03] <WastePotato> Anyone even here?
[23:03] <WastePotato> :/
[23:03] <WastePotato> I'll be back in five, then.
[23:10] <Seeker`> PriceChild: Apparently Wastpotato was banned from -ot, and was told by ompaul that it would end 3-4 days ago
[23:56] <jdong> not a very good link
[23:56] <jdong> it's humorous but not factually accurate.
[23:56] <jdong> usually you want to give SIGINT, SIGTERM, then SIGKILL
[23:56] <jdong> not SIGTERM, SIGINT, SIGKILL
[23:58] <Seeker`> SIGSEGV works quite well :P
[23:58] <jdong> haha that's just mean :D
[23:58] <Seeker`> I was having problems killing a prcoess
[23:59] <Seeker`> KILL and TERM iddn't work
[23:59] <jdong> I've seen some humorous "denial of service" attacks based around that too
[23:59] <Seeker`> SEGV did
[23:59] <jdong> where you basically SEGV the biggest processes you can find and wait for apport and friends to backtrace it
[23:59] <jdong> hilarity ensues
[23:59] <jdong> large games come to mind


[16:09] <makumba> helllo
[16:09] <makumba> how are you
[16:09] <makumba> can you help me
[16:09] <makumba> pls


[00:08] <slickymaster> cy tomorrow guys
[00:08] <Unit193> Bye.
[00:08] <slickymaster> Unit193, ;)
[00:22] <ochosi> brainwash: no worries, just let me know when you do get to it
[02:41] <bluesabre> ochosi, ali1234: thoughts? https://code.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/lightdm-gtk-greeter/gtk_image_background
[02:42] <bluesabre> it seems to work for me, nouveau and nvidia-proprietary
[02:42] <bluesabre> oh crap, missed a line that I needed to fix
[02:43] <bluesabre> but yes, should still work ;)
[02:44] <bluesabre> fixed
[03:05] <bluesabre> make
[03:05] <bluesabre> woops
[03:08] <pleia2> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
[03:08] <bluesabre> :D
[03:08] <pleia2> :D
[03:09] <bluesabre> that command took forever to execture
[03:09] <bluesabre> or execute
[03:09] <bluesabre> not even sure what execture is
[03:09] <pleia2> slow channel
[03:16] <micahg> so, that's it, no XMir for 14.04
[03:18] <Unit193> Yes indeedio, I saw this.  Means I'm useless again.
[03:20] <Unit193> (And I quite agree with that, no unstable and very new *display server* for a LTS.)
[03:21] <holstein> i thought it was kind of cavalier
[04:59] <micahg> Unit193: I'm sure we can find another project for you to spearhead ;)
[09:32] <ochosi> bluesabre: hihi, you pushed your config-file :D
[09:40] <ochosi> ali1234: i think on top of bluesabre's branch it'll be much easier to implement the fading in the greeter
[09:56] <slickymaster> morning all
[09:56] <ochosi> morning slickymaster
[09:57] <slickymaster> ochosi: and a good one to you
[09:57] <ochosi> ta
[10:08] <slickymaster> knome: FYI https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs/+merge/196213
[10:43] <knome> slickymaster, ta, will get to that later
[10:43] <slickymaster> knome: tk
[10:44] <knome> elfy, ping
[10:52] <ali1234> ochosi: the RetainPermanent stuff is there for a reason
[10:52] <ali1234> it's supposed to ensure the background stays there between lightdm -> desktop transition
[10:53] <ali1234> ideally what we want to do is draw a gtk image until lightdm is going to quit, then dump the image to the root pixmap once just before exiting
[10:53] <ochosi> yeah, that sounds like a plan
[10:54] <ali1234> however this doesn't necessarily fix the crashing on nouveau
[10:54] <ali1234> otoh it isn't necessarily the cause either
[10:55] <ochosi> well bluesabre mentioned that his gtkimage branch worked with nouveau
[10:55] <ochosi> so we could hope that it really helps
[10:56] <ali1234> yeah but he removed the RetainPermanent stuff
[10:57] <ochosi> oh
[10:57] <ochosi> that has to be added back then
[10:57] <ali1234> yes, at least for a test
[11:04] <bluesabre> ah
[11:04] <bluesabre> I can add that back
[11:05] <bluesabre> but this should at least eliminate the glitches for when sitting at the login screen
[11:05] <ochosi> sounds good
[11:06] <bluesabre> (also fixes the crazy memory leak)
[11:06] <bluesabre> but, I suppose I'll be adding that back with the RetainPermanent code
[11:06] <ochosi> yeah, i think we can merge that branch pretty soon :)
[11:07] <ali1234> bluesabre: it has to be not just added back, but reworked so it only gets called once at the very end, instead of at the start
[11:07] <bluesabre> ah
[11:07] <bluesabre> I see
[11:07] <bluesabre> that makes sense
[11:07] <ochosi> yeah, so the leak would indeed be fixed
[11:08] <ali1234> not necessarily
[11:08] <ali1234> well, yes, the *leak*
[11:08] <ali1234> but not necessarily the display corruption/crashing
[11:08] <ali1234> because it leaks by design
[11:09] <bluesabre> right
[11:09] <ali1234> the entire point of that code is to leave a pixmap on the display after it exits
[11:09] <ochosi> i thought the display-corruption was helped by using the gtkimage?
[11:09] <ali1234> that may be just papering over it
[11:09] <bluesabre> the GtkImage draws with Gtk, so it eliminates the corruption at least when viewing it at the login screen
[11:10] <bluesabre> it will probably come back with drawing using cairo/x
[11:10] <ali1234> i don't think it is the way it is drawn
[11:10] <ochosi> and the leak will only be 1 image instead of all the images that were seen in the greeter by switching users
[11:10] <ali1234> i think it's the RetainPermanent followed by client disconnect
[11:10] <ali1234> but i have no way to test
[11:11] <ochosi> well i can switch to nouveau if it's just about needing a tester ;)
[11:14] <ali1234> actually... this other computer i just found has nvidia onboard graphics
[11:14] <ali1234> i can probably test on that if i update it
[11:15] <ali1234> it's also on 12.04 though
[11:21] <ochosi> fine by me, if it doesn't work for some reason and you need me as a nouveau tester after all, let me know
[11:21] <ochosi> bluesabre: i think we should probably set up a shared branch
[11:22] <ochosi> otherwise you'll always have to merge stuff back and forth
[11:22] <bluesabre> probably
[11:22] <bluesabre> I'll do that in a sec
[11:22] <ochosi> cool, ty
[11:23] <bluesabre> and that way I can leave tasks for you
[11:23] <bluesabre> :D
[11:24] <ochosi> :)
[11:24] <ochosi> i added a funny list-mode to tabwin today
[11:25] <bluesabre> https://code.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/gtk_image_background
[11:25] <ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-11222013-122522pm.php
[11:26] <ochosi> bluesabre: but ali1234 isn't part of the team yet so can't push, right? or is this a public branch?
[11:26] <bluesabre> adding him now :>
[11:26] <ochosi> nice
[11:26] <bluesabre> btw, do you know who Adam Jiang is?
[11:27] <ochosi> nope
[11:27] <bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/+members#proposed
[11:27] <ochosi> not the guy who wrote the another-lightdm-gtk-greeter
[11:27] <ochosi> cause that guy's name is andrew
[11:28] <bluesabre> interesting tabwin stuff
[11:28] <ochosi> i'd like to add that as an option
[11:28] <ochosi> it's actually quite a small code-change in the ochosi/tabwin branch
[11:50] <ali1234> right, computer is set up
[11:52] <ali1234> how do i set up lightdm/light-locker for testing?
[12:14] <ochosi> ali1234: i usually just build with --prefix=/usr and then install it over the existing copy
[12:14] <ochosi> if i want to revert, i just use apt-get install --reinstall
[12:14] <ochosi> for light-locker it should suffice to use the daily-PPA, no need to build from source
[12:21] <brainwash> ochosi: uhm, now I'm kinda lost, all this talk about the background issue
[12:21] <ochosi> brainwash: if you wanna test a branch, this is the one: https://code.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/gtk_image_background
[12:22] <bluesabre> wait a sec on that
[12:22] <bluesabre> :)
[12:22] <brainwash> ochosi: just tested the new xfdesktop (4.11) and it messes with the copy process of the root pixmap
[12:22] <bluesabre> I might push a nice fix in a sec
[12:22] <ochosi> brainwash: do you use xfdesktop from git or from the 4.12 ppa?
[12:22] <brainwash> ppa
[12:22] <ochosi> bluesabre: ah, yeah, i would've mentioned the caveat ;)
[12:23] <ochosi> brainwash: mainly asking cause the interaction of greeter and xfdesktop only works with the patch for accountsservice
[12:23] <ochosi> otherwise the user-wallpaper doesn't get set
[12:24] <brainwash> it does get set
[12:24] <ochosi> yeah, with the PPA version it should
[12:24] <ochosi> so what's the problem with the root pixmap exactly?
[12:25] <brainwash> xfdesktop crashes
[12:25] <brainwash> because of the compositor coyping the root pixmap
[12:26] <brainwash> tried to delay the launch of xfdesktop
[12:26] <brainwash> but it did not work, let me try again
[12:27] <brainwash> https://code.launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/lightdm-gtk-greeter/root-window
[12:28] <ali1234> nope.
[12:28] <ali1234> you can't delay xfdesktop
[12:28] <ali1234> the greeter intentionally sets resources that stay around after it exits
[12:29] <ali1234> the support for doing this seems very poor on nouveau
[12:30] <brainwash> you cannot?
[12:30] <ali1234> you can delay it
[12:30] <ali1234> but you can't delay it until those pixmaps go away, because they never go away
[12:31] <ochosi> i think the problem is xfwm4's compositor
[12:31] <ochosi> cause it draws over the root pixmap in grey
[12:31] <ali1234> i have noticed that
[12:31] <ochosi> while it'd better do nothing i guess (at least in our case, where xfdesktop is in use)
[12:31] <brainwash> yes, if xfdesktop launches while xfwm4 copies the root background, xfdesktop will crash
[12:32] <bluesabre> seems a bit buggier, try this ochosi, ali1234: https://code.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/gtk_image_background
[12:32] <ochosi> ali1234: so basically that grey flicker is what brainwash wants to get rid of :)
[12:32] <ochosi> bluesabre: wait, buggier in what respect? :>
[12:32] <ali1234> i've installed light-locker. how do i lock the screen?
[12:33] <bluesabre> I think the grey flicker is the GtkWindow background color
[12:33] <bluesabre> probably xfdesktop does show() before the background image is loaded I would guess
[12:33] <ochosi> ali1234: after the light-locker process has been started, run "light-locker-command -l"
[12:33] <ochosi> bluesabre: no, there really is a call in the compositor to draw the bg in that grey color
[12:33] <bluesabre> oh
[12:33] <bluesabre> thats terrible
[12:34] <ochosi> :)
[12:34] <bluesabre> btw, not buggier to where it doesn't work, but sometimes at first login the bg is just drawn as the bg-color
[12:34] <ali1234> ok that works for me, no graphics corruption
[12:34] <ochosi> well that's what you see when logging in normally
[12:34] <bluesabre> still an improvement though
[12:34] <ali1234> with the standard greeter that is
[12:34] <ochosi> standard greeter?
[12:34] <ali1234> the one from the install cd
[12:35] <bluesabre> anyway, gotta run
[12:35] <bluesabre> feel free to add any personal fixes or garnishes to that branch :)
[12:35] <ochosi> okey :)
[12:35] <ochosi> seeya later bluesabre
[12:35] <ochosi> and hf@work
[12:36] <brainwash> bug 1232804
[12:36] <brainwash> explains the grey background
[12:37] <ali1234> if you kill xfdesktop and run some xsetroot commands, it doesn't change the root window colour, presumably because of this
[12:38] <ali1234> you just see the grey
[12:39] <ochosi> so that should probably really be fixed in xfwm4 then...
[12:40] <ali1234> the grey is #7f7f7f
[12:40] <ali1234> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/tree/src/compositor.c#n872
[12:41] <ochosi> yup
[12:46] <brainwash> how should it be fixed in xfwm4?
[12:46] <ochosi> not sure
[12:47] <brainwash> the code for copying the root background is already there
[12:47] <brainwash> it works
[12:47] <brainwash> but xfdesktop messes up
[12:47] <brainwash> and in 4.11 xfdesktop messes up big time
[12:47] <brainwash> why does it draw a white background?
[12:47] <ali1234> so does it make any difference with any of the branches of the greeter?
[12:48] <brainwash> now we have a grey and a white background...
[12:48] <ochosi> ali1234: does what make any diff?
[12:48] <brainwash> double flicker
[12:48] <ali1234> does anything make any difference?
[12:48] <ochosi> :D
[12:48] <ali1234> because there's too many variables here
[12:48] <ali1234> what exactly are the requirements?
[12:49] <ochosi> well, i think with retaining the background in the greeter, letting xfwm4 copy the root pixmap and fixing xfdesktop to cooperate could do the trick (as far as i understood)
[12:49] <ochosi> the requirements are a flicker-free login
[12:49] <ali1234> and unlocking
[12:49] <ochosi> yeah
[12:49] <ochosi> although
[12:49] <ochosi> unlocking is somewhat impossible
[12:49] <ali1234> and also it shouldn't crash or display corrupted graphics
[12:49] <ochosi> cause unlocking includes a VT-switch
[12:50] <ochosi> so there will be a blank screen
[12:50] <ochosi> yeah, not crashing and not corrupting the screen would be nice :)
[12:52] <ali1234> nouveau just totally corrupted the display and froze the system
[12:52] <ali1234> can we just say "nouveau isn't supported because it's crap"
[12:53] <brainwash> on normal screen locking?
[12:53] <ali1234> no just while i was trying to open firefox
[12:53] <brainwash> it happened once for me after hibernate
[12:53] <brainwash> scrambled screen
[12:53] <ochosi> yeah
[12:53] <ochosi> well getting it to work on everything else first and then trying to add some workarounds for nouveau would be nice
[12:53] <ali1234> yeah
[12:54] <ochosi> but i know it's not very stable...
[12:54] <brainwash> this whole thing is somewhat messed up, we should not have started messing around with it :D
[12:55] <ali1234> if we're getting corruption with nouveau, 99% it's a nouveau bug
[12:55] <ochosi> brainwash: yeah, it's all *your* fault ;)
[12:56] <brainwash> ochosi: do you know why xfdesktop behaves differently since 4.11?
[12:56] <ochosi> no, i haven't looked at the changes
[12:57] <ochosi> but i'm in touch with eric
[12:57] <brainwash> what is the deal with the white background (overlay)?
[12:57] <ochosi> so i can discuss this issue with him when he's back from his holiday
[12:57] <ochosi> (~1-2weeks)
[12:57] <ali1234> well, tell you what... i'll concentrate on this compositor thing
[12:57] <ali1234> it's fine on nvidia...
[12:57] <ochosi> sweet
[12:58] <brainwash> so can we merge https://code.launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/lightdm-gtk-greeter/root-window ? this change alone does no harm
[12:59] <brainwash> well, but on the other side, I'm not an expert, so it could be bad
[12:59] <brainwash> :)
[13:00] <ochosi> it doesnt look very harmful, but i'd prefer if ali1234 and bluesabre also took a look at it
[13:00] <ochosi> the code is from xfwm4, right?
[13:01] <brainwash> not directly, xfwm4 queries this X window property, so I simply set it for the lightdm background
[13:02] <ochosi> yeah, that's what i meant
[13:03] <ali1234> brainwash: what's the reasoning for it?
[13:03] <brainwash> compositor.c
[13:03] <brainwash> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/tree/src/compositor.c#n806
[13:04] <brainwash> line 840
[13:06] <brainwash> it worked nicely with the small startup delay added to xfdesktop 4.10
[13:06] <ali1234> and this causes the crash when xfdesktop is starting?
[13:06] <ochosi> so the fact that both xfwm4 and xfdesktop want to paint the root window causes the crash?
[13:06] <ali1234> ok i see exactly what is happening
[13:06] <ali1234> nah
[13:07] <brainwash> yes, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfwm4/+bug/1232804/comments/3
[13:07] <brainwash> comment 3
[13:07] <ali1234> this might even explain the graphic corruption
[13:07] <ali1234> i need to look at xfdesktop source...
[13:09] <ochosi> oh the suspense...
[13:09] <brainwash> but these changes are only tested by me so far, or do you mean that there is a general xfdesktop issue?
[13:09] <ali1234> you have to think about how everything interacts
[13:09] <ali1234> see
[13:09] <ali1234> the greeter makes those RetainPermanent pixmaps
[13:09] <ali1234> then xfwm4 starts up and reads the pixmap address for the root image
[13:09] <ali1234> that's the RetainPermanent pixma the greeter stuffed in there
[13:09] <ali1234> then it memcpys it
[13:10] <ali1234> meanwhile xfdesktop starts up and also tries to set the root pixmap (presumably)
[13:10] <ali1234> thus, we have a race condition, an un-owned pixmap that is likely to get freed at any time, and therefore some nasty invalid pointer operations
[13:10] <brainwash> doesn't xfdesktop draw a new window?
[13:10] <ali1234> the root window is the root window
[13:10] <ali1234> who knows what it really does to it?
[13:11] <ali1234> it does draw a new window but that isn't necessarily the only thing it does
[13:11] <ali1234> so... time to look at the code
[13:11] <brainwash> yes, so an extra delay fixed this
[13:11] <brainwash> but xfdesktop 4.11 is different again
[13:12] <brainwash> and we should focus on the 4.11 stuff, right?
[13:12] <ali1234> yeah
[13:13] <ali1234> actually i would be interested to see what happens if you disable xfdesktop completely and then retry all the branches on nouveau
[13:14] <ali1234> i suspect xfdesktop is "cleaning" all the RetainPermanent pixmaps out
[13:14] <ochosi> well that in itself is not a bad idea, eh?
[13:14] <ali1234> it is
[13:14] <elfy> knome: a 30 minute pong or you'll have to ping me again
[13:14] <ali1234> it is if xfwm4 is going to take a copy of the pointer
[13:15] <ochosi> hm, all in all it's strange no-one noticed this before
[13:15] <ali1234> yeah, i always think that
[13:15] <ochosi> guess in most cases it doesn't cause huge problems
[13:15] <ali1234> "how did this code *ever* work?"
[13:15] <ochosi> :)
[13:20] <ali1234> brainwash: so with that root properties patch, if you kill xfdesktop, do you still see your background?
[13:21] <brainwash> ali1234: all I see is a white background
[13:21] <ali1234> even with the older version?
[13:22] <ochosi> or: you deactivate/uninstall xfdesktop and try again
[13:22] <ochosi> then xfwm4 should show the wallpaper set by lightdm
[13:22] <ochosi> (or did i misunderstand something?)
[13:22] <ali1234> yes, it actually memcpy's the pixmap
[13:23] <ali1234> or at least it tries to
[13:23] <brainwash> why that?
[13:23] <ali1234> well, i guess with a compositor you never see the true root window
[13:23] <brainwash> right, thet's compositing
[13:32] <ali1234> on intel i get a black screen if light-locker is installed
[13:36] <ochosi> ali1234: you mean in the greeter? (as in: happening as it should)
[13:37] <ochosi> i mean: does it blank the screen on locking
[13:37] <ali1234> no i mean as in it boots up to a blank screen
[13:37] <ali1234> and no matter what i do the screen stays blank
[13:37] <ochosi> that's more than odd
[13:37] <ochosi> can't say i get why that would happen
[13:39] <ochosi> unless lightdm_greeter_get_lock_hint would return TRUE in any case
[13:45] <ochosi> ali1234: did you check the /var/log/lightdm/* logs?
[13:51] <ali1234> fixed it, i had to delete displays.xml
[14:09] <brainwash> odd fix
[14:27] <ali1234> hmm
[15:38] <ElderDryas> Seeing as how pleia2 likes notes here rather than -ot (iirc), http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xubuntu-salamander.html
[15:39] <ElderDryas> What you guys do, slip some I-Love-Xubuntu juice into his coffee?  He used to despise XFCE :)
[15:44] <ochosi> ElderDryas: hehe, jolly-good read that
[15:52] <slickymaster> ElderDryas, ochosi,  +1 on that
[16:05] <ali1234> i never really thought xfce was any good until recently
[16:05] <ali1234> 4.10 seems to have fixed many many bugs and it's actually viable now
[16:08] <ElderDryas> 4.8 started it, 4.10 took it most of the way...now I look forward to 4.12.  But that seems a ways off now :(
[16:36] <slickymaster> ochosi: ping
[16:38] <ochosi> slickymaster: pong
[16:38] <slickymaster> ochosi: looking at the code in http://git.xfce.org/apps/parole/tree/src/parole-player.c#n2441 I see that the Page Down key is for skip back 600 secs and the Page Up key is for the skip ahead 600 secs
[16:38] <ochosi> exactly
[16:38] <ochosi> 600secs = 10mins
[16:38] <ochosi> (i guess that's easier to grasp for most ppl)
[16:39] <slickymaster> ochosi: yeah, I know, but the thing is, I'm not discovering the keys for the seek medium options
[16:39] <ochosi> it's ctrl+left/right
[16:40] <ochosi> http://git.xfce.org/apps/parole/tree/src/parole-player.c#n2464
[16:40] <ochosi> GDK_CONTROL_MASK
[16:41] <slickymaster> ochosi: never mind, it was right in front of me
[16:41] <ochosi> no problem
[16:41]  * slickymaster thinks that he really needs a pair of glasses
[16:41] <ochosi> actually it's good for you to know, because the show/hide menu shortcut is also CTRL+m
[16:42] <slickymaster> yeah, that one I saw
[16:42] <ochosi> cool
[16:43] <slickymaster> i spent almost ten minutes looking at the switch block and was unable to see them, I really need glasses
[16:43] <ochosi> hehe, that happens from time to time
[16:43] <slickymaster> thanks, ochosi
[16:43] <ochosi> main question being: didn't you *see* it or couldn't you *read* it ;)
[16:43] <ochosi> (only in the second case you *really* need glasses)
[16:44] <slickymaster> ochosi: that's the million dollar question, isn't it?
[16:44] <ochosi> hehe, i guess
[16:53] <slickymaster> ochosi: just one other thing, is there any particular reason for the fact that the arrow keys (up, down, left and right) are italic formatted?
[16:54] <slickymaster> I mean in http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage&#keyboard_shortcuts
[16:54] <ochosi> let me check how other xfce projects did that
[16:55] <ochosi> hm, i guess that was jjfrv8's decision
[16:55] <ochosi> tbh i didn't really notice that before
[16:55] <ochosi> i don't mind either formatting, but yeah, not sure the italics are needed
[16:56] <slickymaster> ochosi: I don't think that it's visually coherent
[16:56] <ochosi> then remove the italic formatting, i'm totally fine with that
[16:56] <slickymaster> ok
[16:56] <ochosi> jjfrv8: fyi ^
[17:10] <slickymaster> ochosi: I think I've covered them all. Anyway it's at your disposal to check and review http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage&#keyboard_shortcuts
[17:10] <slickymaster> please ping me in case I've skip anything or if you think that something needs to corrected
[17:10] <slickymaster> I'll bbl, after dinner
[17:11] <ochosi> slickymaster: thanks! and bon appetit
[17:11] <ochosi> i'll be away for most of the rest of the weekend
[17:11] <ochosi> returning on sunday evening
[17:12] <slickymaster> ochosi: enjoy your weekend. We'll talk then
[17:12] <ochosi> slickymaster: thanks you too! seeyq
[17:12] <ochosi> seeya
[17:12] <slickymaster> cy
[17:15] <ochosi> bluesabre: i just reviewed slickymaster's addition of the playback kb-shortcuts and changed a few small details, care to review that? http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage&#keyboard_shortcuts
[17:15] <ochosi> bluesabre: i think it's mostly fine and everything should be covered now, not sure about the "skip" wording (should it be "seek" instead?), i also noticed we don't have a shortcut for next/previous track
[17:25] <ali1234> ok, getting good progress on this greeter stuff
[17:25] <ochosi> ali1234: really? do tell!
[17:26] <ali1234> i've got everything set up for testing, results are as expected
[17:26] <ali1234> just testing the compositor pixmap memcpy stuff
[17:26] <ali1234> brainwash' patch doesn't actually work, but the idea is right
[17:27] <ali1234> we need to make the compositor copy the root window instead of just filling it with grey
[17:27] <ochosi> indeed
[17:27] <brainwash> why does it work for me?
[17:27] <ali1234> brainwash: i dunno. if it's because "different drivers" then i will rage
[17:28] <ali1234> i'll get to the bottom of it anyway
[17:28] <brainwash> and why shouldn't it work? it's just setting a property..
[17:28] <brainwash> =S
[17:28] <ali1234> i dunno. all i know is that even with the patch applied i still get a grey root tile
[17:29] <ali1234> i have not yet traced it to see exactly what is happening
[17:29] <brainwash> you also recompiled xfwm4, right?
[17:29] <ali1234> no, did you patch that too?
[17:29] <brainwash> amg
[17:29] <ali1234> or it needs none-default configuration options?
[17:29] <brainwash> right, it's not a default compile option
[17:29] <ali1234> well, that seems silly
[17:30] <brainwash> read my bug report =S
[17:31] <ali1234> so how do i do that? ./autogen.sh MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP=yes?
[17:33] <brainwash> you need to define it
[17:34] <ali1234> like, manually in the source code??
[17:36] <ali1234> ah i see
[17:36] <ali1234> this code doesn't just copy the background once
[17:36] <ali1234> it updates it continuously, so that you really can see the root window at all times
[17:36] <ali1234> we don't need that
[17:36] <ali1234> we just want to copy it once
[17:42] <ali1234> right, rebuilt it
[17:42] <ali1234> it works... but
[17:42] <ali1234> not very well
[17:44] <ali1234> i also got xfdesktop crashes... but without updating to the newest version
[17:47] <brainwash> comment 3?
[17:47] <brainwash> it worked for me if I slightly delayed the launch of xfdesktop
[17:48] <brainwash> I cannot get it to work properly, so it's not very likely that this "improvement" will make it into the final LTS release
[17:55] <ali1234> that's just a workaround
[18:07] <brainwash> yes
[18:07] <brainwash> needs to be implemented properly or not at all
[19:03] <ali1234> brainwash: xfdesktop already has a patch that makes it wait for 5 seconds after xfwm4 starts
[19:04] <brainwash> ali1234: right, does it work?
[19:05] <ali1234> well, obviously not
[19:05] <ali1234> what i do see is that xfdesktop also uses those desktop pixmap atoms atoms
[19:16] <ali1234> aaaaaaaaaaaaah
[19:18] <ali1234> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/wm-spec-list/2002-January/msg00001.html <- this thread explains a lot of things
[19:19] <ali1234> one of which is that if xfdesktop wants to set the root pixmap that way it is doing it, it is liable to get killed later on
[19:38] <ali1234> right... i think i understand the problem
[19:47] <ali1234> yeah... fixed
[19:47] <ali1234> so the thing is, if you enable MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP it does just that. it doesn't just copy the pixmap one time at startup
[19:47] <ali1234> it also enables a bunch of other code, and that other code is what causes the crash
[19:48] <ali1234> and it isn't really a crash, it's actually defined behaviour
[19:48] <ali1234> because now xfwm4 and xfdesktop both try to control the root pixmap, they fight eachother
[19:48] <ali1234> so the fix is to enable that first copy at startup only
[19:48] <ali1234> and not the other stuff
[19:52] <ali1234> basically the problem is they all try to manipulate the root bg pixmap, and they all use a different standard to do it
[19:52] <ali1234> they should all use the same standard, and then everything will be fine
[19:52] <ali1234> also none of them follows the standard they picked quite correctly
[19:54] <brainwash> ok, finally we (actually you) understand what is going on :)
[19:54] <ali1234> the good news is this is totally fixable
[19:55] <ali1234> it probably also explains why the corrupted graphics on nouveau
[19:55] <ali1234> it all comes down to those RetainPermanent pixmaps. that's a standard, but there's no standard way to manage them once you've created one on the root
[19:56] <ali1234> oh the other good thing about this is that fixing it will also fix the greeter memory leak
[19:57] <ali1234> without having to implement gtk images etc
[19:59] <brainwash> I will test your magical fix then :)
[19:59] <brainwash> if it's ready
[20:12] <ali1234> brainwash: basically, instead of #define MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP, remove the #ifdefs from root_tile() only
[20:12] <ali1234> and that's it
[20:17] <pleia2> drc: thanks :)
[20:17] <drc> pleia2: you're welcome...for what?
[20:19] <pleia2> drc: dedoimedo link, added to press page
[20:20] <drc> oh...yeah...You'll have to forgive me, that was this morning and my wife says goldfish have a longer memory than I do :)
[20:20] <pleia2> hehe
[20:26] <brainwash> bug 1254087
[20:27] <Noskcaj> brainwash, I saw that, how hard would it be to fix?
[20:28] <ali1234> i pushed the root pixmap fix to my xfwm4 zoom2 branch
[20:28] <brainwash> don't know, but why replace the xfdesktop right-click menu?!
[20:29] <brainwash> ali1234: got any prebuild packages too?
[20:29] <ali1234> no
[20:29] <ali1234> you still need to patch the greeter to set the atom too
[20:29] <brainwash> because many people need to test this stuff :)
[20:29] <ali1234> but that needs "improving"
[20:31] <brainwash> currently everything is a bit messy, branches and fixes everywhere
[20:36]  * ali1234 pokes #ubuntu-x for information
[20:40] <Noskcaj> brainwash, the bug is about right-click>Applications>
[20:42] <brainwash> mmh, so xfdesktop would need support for the whisker panel plugin
[20:45] <brainwash> reassign the report to xfdesktop?
[20:48] <ali1234> hmm... i'm going to look at what unity-greeter does wrt RetainPermanent
[20:48] <ali1234> we should support whatever they do too, if they use different atoms
[20:53] <brainwash> different? xfwm4 only checks for 2 I think
[20:54] <brainwash> oh RetainPermanent
[20:57] <ali1234> yeah there's at least 4 different ones
[20:57] <ali1234> (xfdesktop checks for 2 different ones)
[20:57] <ali1234> basically you make a RetainPermanent pixmap and then stuff it's X resource ID into an atom so you can find it again later
[20:58] <ali1234> but every desktop uses a different atom for this
[21:01] <ali1234> unity-greeter defines RetainPermanent but does not use it
[21:01] <ali1234> so now i'm really puzzled
[21:13] <ali1234> it looks like compiz just copies whatever is on the screen at startup
[21:13] <ali1234> no checking of atoms
[21:14] <ali1234> it does monitor atoms for later background changes though
[21:16] <brainwash> and gdm/mutter? :P
[21:18] <ali1234> who cares about them?
[21:24] <knome> bluesabre, pleia2: either/both of you around?
[21:24] <knome> jjfrv8, or you? :)
[21:24] <pleia2> you're supposed to say what you want first so I can figure out whether to say yes
[21:25] <knome> nah, not saying is part of my evil plan!
[21:25]  * skellat is lurking
[21:26] <knome> skellat, i don't specifically need you at the moment but if you have anything you'd like to discuss, i'm here!
[21:26] <knome> pleia2, do you have time to go through the blueprints today?
[21:26] <pleia2> maybe after work
[21:27] <knome> what UTC is that?
[21:27] <pleia2> 1
[21:27] <knome> umph
[21:27] <knome> might not be around at that time today
[21:27] <knome> but we can look at it later, no hurry
[21:27] <pleia2> sunday would be better
[21:28] <knome> (and i could have a quick stab at it myself as well)
[21:28] <pleia2> knome: lmk when you publish testing post
[21:28] <knome> ah, i could do that soonish
[21:28] <knome> are you lurking around?
[21:28] <pleia2> yeah
[21:29] <knome> i'm probably doing it in the next 30mins
[21:29] <knome> perfect, i'll ping you then :)
[21:41] <knome> heh, ok, so ~ubuntu-testcase is going to be removed ;)
[21:47] <knome> does anybody see any reason for ~xubuntu-dev to be a member of ~xubuntu-team?
[21:47] <knome> everybody in ~xubuntu-dev is explicitly a member of -team as well (except people who are in ~dev because of other team memberships)
[21:48] <knome> if we drop the membership of ~xubuntu-dev, then LP would show the real amount of -team members
[21:52] <ali1234> here's a tonne of information about this: https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-desktop/pull/46
[22:05] <knome> pleia2, prodded out http://xubuntu.org/news/help-us-test-xubuntu-14-04-lts/
[22:05] <knome> and tweeted
[22:11] <ali1234> hmm you know what? i think this code from xfwm4 MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP was written by someone who was very confused, and they just got the atom names wrong
[22:25] <slickymaster> night all
[22:25] <pleia2> knome: thanks
[22:25] <knome> np
[22:25] <knome> hey slickymaster
[22:26] <slickymaster> hi, knome
[22:26] <knome> slickymaster, has elfy been in contact with you since yesterday yet?
[22:26] <slickymaster> knome, no
[22:27] <knome> slickymaster, ok, let him take the time then :)
[22:27] <slickymaster> knome, ok
[22:27] <slickymaster> is there any problem?
[22:27] <knome> slickymaster, not at all!
[22:27] <slickymaster> ok
[22:30] <slickymaster> ochosi, saw the changes you made on to the playback table on http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage#keyboard_shortcuts and I must say that you were right from the beginning
[22:30] <slickymaster> ochosi, people can understand 10 mins but probably wouldn't understand 600 secs
[22:30] <slickymaster> ochosi, good call
[22:34] <ali1234> ochosi: i summarized all my knowledge about the greeter pixmap stuff on the bug report, if you don't wanna read all the scrollback: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfwm4/+bug/1232804/+attachment/3899352/+files/xsetroot.patch


[06:17] <dns53> http://uec-images.ubuntu.com/ is down
[19:06] <cjohnston> howdy
[20:07] <AlanBell> o/
[21:04] <AlanBell> http://libertus.co.uk:8000/europe/ is coming on
[21:07] <AlanBell> I am thinking of adding some fields to the country object to get more of it into the database and less hard coded in the html template
[21:08] <AlanBell> in fact just the iso country code would do
[21:09] <AlanBell> mhall119: does that sound reasonable?
[22:51] <mhall119> huh what?
[22:51] <mhall119> AlanBell: that's pretty slow loading for me
[22:52] <mhall119> I like the idea though
[22:52] <mhall119> I'm okay with adding useful fields to the Country object, but who's going to populate them?
[22:53] <mhall119> if you can get the initial data, we can make a fixture to load it all into the db when we deploy, that would probably be the easiest way
[22:56] <cjohnston> no quoting obama
[22:56]  * cjohnston glares at AlanBell
[22:56] <AlanBell> it was Bob the Builder then
[22:56] <cjohnston> bs
[22:57] <AlanBell> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA16sqCusbY
[22:57] <AlanBell> anyhow
[22:58] <cjohnston> dont care.. you already ruined the quote
[22:58] <AlanBell> I think all the country object needs is the iso code
[22:59] <AlanBell> then it can loop through all the country objects in the continent and pull out the codes
[22:59] <AlanBell> then for each country it can pull out the associated teams and populate the html
[23:00] <AlanBell> ooh, I know a way to make it load faster, just pull the SVG from elsewhere
[23:03] <AlanBell> or maybe not, silly sandbox rules
[23:04] <AlanBell> takes about 12 seconds to load from outside my house
[23:04] <cjohnston> possibly the cdn
[23:04] <AlanBell> there is no cdn involved
[23:04] <cjohnston> we are working on getting one
[23:04] <AlanBell> not for my house you are not :)
[23:05] <cjohnston> no.. you said pull the svg from elsewhere...
[23:05] <cjohnston> we are working on a cdn
[23:05] <AlanBell> oh, I see, sorry
[23:06] <AlanBell> I just tried putting the SVG on people.ubuntu.com, but if you pull it from elsewhere then the javascript can't manipulate the DOM of the SVG object
[23:06] <AlanBell> cross site rules
[23:06] <cjohnston> gotcha
[23:06] <AlanBell> the map I used is a little heavy at 531KB
[23:07] <cjohnston> 531 aint bad
[23:11] <AlanBell> it isn't pulling data from the database at the moment, but I did get the data into a JSON structure http://paste.ubuntu.com/637136/
[23:50] <mhall119> AlanBell: do you have it in a bzr branch that we can checkout?
[23:51] <mhall119> if so, I can get it up on an EC2 instance or something for people to test
[23:55] <mhall119> nigelb: ping


[08:58] <LocutusOfBorg> hello, does anybody have a stick for ppc64el build farm?
[12:45] <cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg: done
[12:45] <cjwatson> at least the test rebuild queue has mostly cleared now
[12:46] <cjwatson> oh and lcy01's vbuilder-manage has crashed, great
[12:47] <cjwatson> I've asked for that to be fixed but it'll depend on out-of-hours sysadmin coverage
[12:48] <cjwatson> ppc64el is back anyway
[14:08] <LocutusOfBorg> thanks!
[14:46] <cjwatson> bos02 seems pretty dead for reasons beyond my ability to fix on my own.  I've asked for help but again it'll depend on out-of-hours sysadmin coverage