[12:51] <eagles0513875> hey all
[12:51] <eagles0513875> hey belkinsa
[12:51] <eagles0513875> hey phillw
[12:52] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: are you around as I am responding to your emails lol
[12:54] <belkinsa> Not really, but I will in 5 minutes.
[12:55] <eagles0513875> ok lol belkinsa ping me when you are available
[12:58] <belkinsa> Okay, ready to help you.
[13:00] <belkinsa> eagles0513875: Do you have a LP account set up?
[13:00] <eagles0513875> yes already logged in with the single sign on :)
[13:00] <eagles0513875> logged in on both wiki and lp
[13:00] <belkinsa> Okay.
[13:00] <belkinsa> Go to this page wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles0513875
[13:01] <belkinsa> What does it give you?
[13:02] <eagles0513875> hold on
[13:03] <eagles0513875> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles051387 it gives me template options
[13:03] <belkinsa> Do create new page for that  one.
[13:04] <eagles0513875> waht do i call it
[13:04] <belkinsa> It's already named http://spacepestremoval.com/comic/hurry/
[13:04] <belkinsa> eagles0513875*
[13:04] <eagles0513875> ?
[13:04] <belkinsa> I forgot what was last copied
[13:05] <eagles0513875> lol
[13:05] <eagles0513875> not sure what that comic has to do with anythign but lol
[13:05] <eagles0513875> hey mhall119 :)
[13:05] <belkinsa> When you create a new page, you specify the name of the page via url of the page and then you make a new page that way.
[13:05] <belkinsa> You can do this for the sandbox wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles0513875/sandbox
[13:06] <belkinsa> But for the user info page , you can use this template: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
[13:06] <belkinsa> And an example of one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/belkinsa
[13:07] <eagles0513875> ok i create a new template page?
[13:07] <belkinsa> No.
[13:07] <eagles0513875> im lost
[13:07] <eagles0513875> so i am already in my sandbox page?
[13:07] <belkinsa> Give me a minute
[13:07] <belkinsa> No really, you need to finish creating it
[13:08] <belkinsa> It says this, "This page does not exist yet. You can create a new empty page, or use one of the page templates" and under that it has a link "create a new page" <--- click that and it will take you the editor.
[13:08] <eagles0513875> ok then what?
[13:09] <belkinsa> Do you get this message in  the editor text box, "Describe eagles0513875/sandbox here."?
[13:10] <eagles0513875> yes
[13:10] <eagles0513875> Describe eagles051387 here.
[13:10] <belkinsa> Now it's up to you if you want to edit the page now or you can just save it and edit it later.
[13:11] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: if you are up for it it would be great to have a page on the wiki about how to do this cuz im sure that would be great for others who want to contribute to have available
[13:11] <belkinsa> That's what I will do.
[13:12] <belkinsa> Also, I think that topic on having a final draft of the guide for us wasn't talked about in the meeting.
[13:12] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: how do i edit it now?
[13:14] <eagles0513875> what wiki infrastructure are they using in terms of software?
[13:14] <belkinsa> Under the "Ubuntu Wiki" banner, there is a white banner that says, " Edit|Info|Subscribe|Attachments|<username>|Logout|Help".
[13:14] <belkinsa> MoinMoin wiki.
[13:14] <belkinsa> http://moinmo.in/
[13:15] <belkinsa> Do you see that white banner?
[13:17] <eagles0513875> ;interesting :)
[13:17] <eagles0513875> i managed to figure out the title :)
[13:18] <belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpContents This could help but I agree, it would be better if there was user friendly guide.
[13:18] <belkinsa> This is for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnPageCreation
[13:19] <eagles0513875> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles051387 :D
[13:19] <eagles0513875> thats a start
[13:19] <belkinsa> It is.  But are you planning to make a about you wiki page if you aiming for a Ubuntu Membership?
[13:21] <eagles0513875> oh
[13:21] <eagles0513875> wait im confused
[13:21] <eagles0513875> lol
[13:21] <eagles0513875> where do we start doing the documentation  work for the community wiki
[13:21] <eagles0513875> that is what im after
[13:21] <eagles0513875> or would you recommend I create an about me wiki page?
[13:22] <belkinsa> It's up to you though if you want an Ubuntu Membership.  Info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
[13:22] <belkinsa> It's not really but it's sometimes useful.
[13:22] <eagles0513875> ok
[13:22]  * belkinsa is planning to get mine
[13:23] <belkinsa> Also, I feel like your work will be a great help for the community if it all works out.
[13:24] <eagles0513875> ok I will work on my about me :)
[13:25] <belkinsa> It's up to you though, I'm not making you to do it.
[13:27] <belkinsa> But if you need a sandbox page you can always do wiki.ubuntu.com/eagles0513875/sandbox
[13:32] <eagles0513875> ty :)
[13:32] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[13:32] <belkinsa> I started work on a wiki page called "SandboxPages" and it will act like the guide for this topic.
[13:33] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: its not linking my wiki page to my launchpad profile
[13:33] <eagles0513875> should it?
[13:34] <belkinsa> It can, if you add the link to the page itself but usually this tells you it SandboxPages (last edited 2013-10-25 08:31:40 by belkinsa) and this on the bottom of the page.  But if you want your wiki page to true to your username on LP, you should do so.
[13:35] <belkinsa> That was an example about the last edited message.
[13:35] <eagles0513875> im talking about the about me wiki page
[13:35] <belkinsa> Add the LP account (page) link to the page yourself.
[13:36] <eagles0513875> add it in launch pad or the other way round
[13:36] <belkinsa> [[https://launchpad.net/~eagles051387|My LP Page]]
[13:36] <belkinsa> No, on wiki page
[13:37] <belkinsa> Something like that.
[13:38] <eagles0513875> ahh ok
[13:38] <belkinsa> There is a temple (showed you the link already) to follow.
[13:40] <eagles0513875> the membership link
[13:40] <belkinsa> No
[13:40] <belkinsa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
[13:41] <belkinsa> You can do edit, copy and paste that on your page, and cancel the editing of THAT page.
[13:41] <belkinsa> That = as in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
[13:41] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: you know what i am noticing that we have no documentation on how to setup and configure launch pad now that
[13:42] <belkinsa> What?  Creating a user info page?
[13:42] <eagles0513875> no
[13:42] <eagles0513875> community page
[13:43] <belkinsa> As in a new page for a new topic?
[13:43] <eagles0513875> yes
[13:43] <eagles0513875> i can take that up if need be
[13:43] <eagles0513875> one step at a time
[13:44] <eagles0513875> does the community doc's have same deadlines as official docs
[13:44] <belkinsa> Good point.  I was thinking about writing that page myself, but if you want to start, you can.
[13:44] <belkinsa> I think not, but I'm not sure.
[13:44] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: reason i can take it up as my main focus is ubuntu server
[13:44] <eagles0513875> and i have a server to test on
[13:46] <belkinsa> That cool.
[13:46] <belkinsa> Anyways, I need to go.  When you have that page done, want to send it off to me so i can look at it?
[13:47] <eagles0513875> sure thing ill link you to the about me wiki page :)
[13:47] <belkinsa> Thanks.  You can do it via e-mail or PM.
[13:47] <belkinsa> See ya!
[13:47] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: ill see what i do
[14:53] <bkerensa> belkinsa: ello
[16:18] <eagles0513875> belkinsa: i will work on the wiki once i get to work
[18:55] <belkinsa> bkerensa: Hey there, you missed me though, I had to go class.  Did you me need me?
[19:33] <eagles0513875> hey littlegirl belkinsa pleia2
[19:33] <eagles0513875> mhall119:  as well :D and balloons
[19:33] <littlegirl> Hey there. (:
[19:33] <pleia2> morning
[19:33] <eagles0513875> how ar eyou littlegirl :)
[19:33] <eagles0513875> night here :D
[19:33] <balloons> howdy eagles0513875
[19:33] <littlegirl> Pretty good. You?
[19:34] <eagles0513875> not bad here at work after a web development course :D
[19:34] <eagles0513875> and im loving web development atm
[19:34] <eagles0513875> starting to work on a site for my gf's father even though he has not approved the quote yet im getting a jump start on it
[19:37] <eagles0513875> how are you pleia2
[19:42] <eagles0513875> balloons: :) how are things in the land of canonical administration
[19:43] <eagles0513875> server admin that is
[19:44] <balloons> eagles0513875, ?
[19:44] <eagles0513875> arent you a canonical server admin
[19:47] <balloons> eagles0513875, no
[19:47] <eagles0513875> oh my bad
[19:47] <balloons> :-) I work with the quality community
[19:47] <eagles0513875> ahh
[19:47] <eagles0513875> ok sry for the confusion
[19:47] <balloons> we do fun stuff like testing
[19:47] <eagles0513875> im getting my hands dirty starting to document some things that i have setup in community documentation
[19:48] <eagles0513875> with postfix + dovecot single domain setup as well as postfix dovecot mysql with virtual users and domain setup and postfix admin
[19:48] <pleia2> eagles0513875: good good, busy friday :)
[19:49] <eagles0513875> ya same here pleia2
[19:49] <eagles0513875> went from web development course came stright to work
[19:49] <eagles0513875> 6 more days until i go on a short vacation
[19:52] <eagles0513875> im getting excited pleia2
[19:55] <pleia2> I'm going to Hong Kong in a week, but it's not a vacation
[20:35] <eagles0513875> pleia2: im off to dublin for a short suprise vacation with my gf and her family for her bday
[20:37] <pleia2> eagles0513875: very nice, I love dublin :)
[20:37] <eagles0513875> will be my first time to go
[20:37] <eagles0513875> and im taking my camera :)
[20:38]  * pleia2 took lots of pictures http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/sets/72157625081321357/
[20:39] <eagles0513875> lol
[20:39] <pleia2> pro tip: don't do the guinness and the jameson tour right after each other :)
[20:39] <eagles0513875> pleia2: seeing your pics is making me more excited
[20:39] <eagles0513875> and why not
[20:39] <pleia2> drunk
[20:39] <pleia2> hehe
[20:40] <eagles0513875> haha how many did you drink
[20:40] <pleia2> well I had a couple guinesses on the guinness tour, then I got to be one of the lucky three selected for a tasting on the jameson tour
[20:40] <pleia2> so 4 shots there
[20:40] <pleia2> I also didn't eat much that day, so that doesn't help
[20:42] <eagles0513875> no it doesnt lol
[20:42] <eagles0513875> now back to web programming i go
[20:42] <eagles0513875> started a web development course and its really kool tbh
[20:47] <eagles0513875> pleia2: is tom davies in here?
[20:47] <eagles0513875> d smythies i mean
[20:49] <pleia2> eagles0513875: when he is here, he's dsmythies, but I think he reads the logs
[20:49] <eagles0513875> gotcha :)
[20:49] <eagles0513875> thanks for the heads up
[20:49] <eagles0513875> im working on a wiki page so i can become a member.
[20:52] <littlegirl> Hey there, godbyk, are you at your keyboard?
[20:57] <eagles0513875> littlegirl: hes a godbyk hes everywhere
[20:58] <littlegirl> hehe
[20:59] <littlegirl> I'm kind of stuck. I'm really motivated to do the docs right now (and that's not always the case) and I'm waiting to hear from him whether he's okay with the reformatting I'm doing of the layout of the docs before I continue doing more of them. I hope he's like Doug and comes in here and reads the logs. (:
[21:03] <godbyk> littlegirl: I'm here now.
[21:03] <godbyk> Just getting caught up on reading the channel backlog..
[21:03] <godbyk> Let me pull down your latest changes and take a look real quick.
[21:04] <littlegirl> godbyk: Oh, cool. Listen, can you grab any of the .page files that start with the letter a and see if you're cool with what I did to them - especially if you compare them with the GNOME versions of them in whatever you're using to diff them?
[21:04] <godbyk> littlegirl: Have you been using xmllint or some other tool to do the indentation and wrapping?
[21:04] <godbyk> Will do!
[21:04] <littlegirl> godbyk: Nope - my fingers are doing all the work. (:
[21:04] <godbyk> littlegirl: Wow!
[21:06] <littlegirl> godbyk: I can undo anything I did, and I'd rather know from you before I keep going. Right now I've got the pages that say, "Merge GNOME updates" in the spreadsheet marked in red in my personal file to let me know that I shouldn't do those yet until you've got them merged (because you'll probably have an easier time comparing them before I change their layout). The rest I intend to do, if that's okay with you. (:
[21:06]  * littlegirl types like the wind.
[21:06] <littlegirl> I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the fastest typist in the world. (:
[21:07] <eagles0513875> littlegirl: how many words per min
[21:07] <eagles0513875> i do about 60 if not faster now since the last time i checked
[21:07]  * eagles0513875 stays swearing at this web coding im doing
[21:07] <littlegirl> 130
[21:08] <eagles0513875> damn girl
[21:08] <eagles0513875> might wanna stock up on some shoes you probably burn through that rubber so fast at the speeds you travel :p
[21:08] <littlegirl> Yeah, and that's with proper punctuation, spelling, and (hopefully) grammar, and it's also removing any errors as they happen by quickly backspacing. (:
[21:09] <eagles0513875> littlegirl: what documentation are you working on the community stuff?
[21:10] <littlegirl> eagles0513875: The core documentation: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty
[21:10] <eagles0513875> kool :)
[21:11] <eagles0513875> im probably going to join the server guide team
[21:11] <godbyk> littlegirl: Did you rearrange the credit, link, desc, and revision tags?
[21:11] <eagles0513875> seeing as I am doign alot of technical setups :) would be great im sure to expand the documentation
[21:11] <littlegirl> I was working on the Kubuntu documentation, but they got away from bzr and Launchpad and are doing stuff in Trello and the wiki, which isn't really my type of thing, so I came over here to the Ubuntu team to see what needed doing. (:
[21:12] <eagles0513875> me im a kde user
[21:12] <eagles0513875> i cant stand unity or gnome for that matter :X
[21:12]  * eagles0513875 goes to run and hide
[21:12] <littlegirl> godbyk: Yep, I alphabetized them (except for link tags, which need to be in the order given, because they are generally alphabetized when viewed in Yelp or whatever).
[21:12] <littlegirl> eagles0513875: Me neither. I use Kubuntu. But you can still help Ubuntu and maybe run it in a VM. (:
[21:13] <godbyk> littlegirl: It looks like the GNOME docs use the order (link, revision, desc, credit) fairly consistently.
[21:13] <littlegirl> godbyk: I checked with the Mallard documentation and it says the info element can contain the other elements in any order, so I hope that was okay.
[21:13] <godbyk> So we should probably use that order, too, so it's easier to compare them and merge them.
[21:13] <littlegirl> godbyk: Oh, would you rather I use that instead? I can fix the ones I did. (:
[21:14] <godbyk> They can be in any order. It's not a problem for Mallard per se. It just makes it more difficult to compare GNOME and Ubuntu Docs line-by-line when some of the lines are shuffled in a different order.
[21:14] <eagles0513875> littlegirl: agreed speaking of i need to install kvm on here
[21:14] <eagles0513875> going to use that as my virtualization platform of choice :)
[21:15] <godbyk> Also, I think the only lines that get wrapped in the <info> block are long <desc> paragraphs.
[21:15] <godbyk> It appears all the others are kept on a one-tag-per-line basis.
[21:15] <littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, not a problem. I copied and pasted the order you just listed into my little personal file and will change the ones I did to that and do the rest in that order from now on. (:
[21:15] <littlegirl> godbyk: Sometimes the revision elements are long, too.
[21:16] <littlegirl> godbyk: Do you know who adds the revision pkversion elements? Those seem to use a different version number (like 0.1 or 0.2 or 0.3) instead of the Ubuntu release version numbers.
[21:16] <godbyk> littlegirl: I just grepped all the <revision> tags in the GNOME docs and they're all one-liners.  One <revision> per line.
[21:17] <godbyk> littlegirl: I suspect we inherited most of those from the GNOME docs.
[21:17] <littlegirl> godbyk: Yep, they're one line, but they're longer than 80 characters, and I'm hard-wrapping the text, and some of them have to be hard-wrapped. (:
[21:17] <littlegirl> godbyk: Not all of them - just some. (:
[21:17] <godbyk> Ah, well, we'll have to break the 80-column limit, then, I guess.
[21:17] <godbyk> (I've never much cared for the 80-column limit, but that's just my personal preference.)
[21:18] <littlegirl> godbyk: Do you have a number in mind?
[21:18] <littlegirl> godbyk: It's what the GNOME docs seem to use (except when someone edited a file and added some text and didn't wrap it), so I started using it. (:
[21:18] <godbyk> littlegirl: Well, they are wrapping paragraphs. I'll see if they have a consistent line limit there. But the revision tags are never wrapped (in the GNOME docs, at least).
[21:19]  * littlegirl thinks the GNOME team needs to let her at their documentation. (:
[21:20] <godbyk> littlegirl: Ha! They might just let you!
[21:20] <littlegirl> godbyk: My personal preference would be to not hard-wrap anything, but different diff programs (and emails, if you have yourself set to be notified of changes) wrap at seventy some-odd characters per line, so even eighty is breaking that limit.
[21:21] <godbyk> littlegirl: You might look at the xmllint and xmlindent programs. The benefit of using those (with decent settings) is that it (1) automates most of the work so you don't have to hand-edit all the files, and (2) means I can run the GNOME docs through the same program with the same settings to make it easy to compare Ubuntu and GNOME docs.
[21:22] <littlegirl> godbyk: The problem is that the layout of the docs isn't consistent throughout. Sometimes everything is nicely indented and wrapped, and other times multiple tags will be on one line (like </p></item><item><p>, and I'm not sure xmllint could look for those and fix them, could it?
[21:23] <littlegirl> I'm thinking some of this stuff needs literal surgery, and it's only going to be possible to do it manually. The rest could probably be automated. (:
[21:23] <godbyk> littlegirl: xmllint can do things like ensure one tag per line with nested indentation and the like.
[21:24] <littlegirl> godbyk: Ooooh, nice! Do you know how to do it?
[21:24] <godbyk> But you're right that those programs can't do everything automatically.
[21:24] <godbyk> So we'll still have to do some things by hand.
[21:24] <littlegirl> Maybe we could run it and then babysit it afterward to make sure it got everything right, and fix anything it didn't. (:
[21:26] <godbyk> littlegirl: You could try "xmllint --format mypage.page"
[21:26] <godbyk> xmllint has a ton of options you can play with.
[21:26] <godbyk> I'd probably try to find some that are relatively close to those used in the GNOME docs.
[21:26] <godbyk> And if none of the built-in style features work, we could always whip up our own formatting script to do things just the way we like. :-)
[21:27] <littlegirl> If we find one that works well, can't we run it on both to make them the same, for comparison's sake?
[21:27] <godbyk> littlegirl: Yeah, that's my thinking.
[21:28] <godbyk> littlegirl: Then even if the Ubuntu and GNOME docs are formatted slightly differently, we can just run the GNOME docs through our formatter to make them look like ours and then do the comparison after that.
[21:28] <littlegirl> godbyk: Okay, I'll read up on xmllint and play around with it and see what I can come up with. (:
[21:28] <littlegirl> godbyk:
[21:28] <godbyk> There's also xmlindent. I'm not sure if it has more or fewer formatting options.
[21:28] <littlegirl> Great! Then even if there's a new version later, the same thing can be done. (:
[21:29] <godbyk> Yep!
[21:29] <littlegirl> I don't have that. It's not a default program?
[21:29] <godbyk> And I can easily update my crosscheck.sh script to format the Ubuntu and GNOME docs through xmllint or whatever before loading the results into meld for comparison.
[21:29]  * godbyk likes shell scripts
[21:29]  * godbyk is lazy
[21:29] <littlegirl> Same here, but not the lazy part. I just love scripts. (:
[21:30] <godbyk> littlegirl: Looks like there's an xmlindent package that I have installed.
[21:30] <littlegirl> Now would this be a formal script that gets added to the repository so anyone can run it, or is this something you and I are working on unofficially?
[21:30]  * littlegirl always likes to know her parameters (:
[21:30] <littlegirl> I'll have to install it and check it out if xmllint doesn't do what I want. (:
[21:31] <godbyk> littlegirl: I can certainly add it to the repository.
[21:31] <godbyk> Right now it's just a one-line script.
[21:31] <godbyk> It just runs this:  meld $1 ~/git/gnome-user-docs/gnome-help/C/$1
[21:31] <littlegirl> I have yet to try it. (:
[21:31] <godbyk> where $1 is the filename I want to compare.
[21:31] <godbyk> Saves me from typing the the path to the gnome docs all the time.
[21:32]  * littlegirl immediately steals the meld command
[21:32] <littlegirl> I had no idea you could run Meld from the command line. (:
[21:32] <godbyk> meld is great for diffing files. I recommend it.
[21:32] <littlegirl> Oh, I use it, but I use the GUI and browse to the files manually. I had no idea I could type them in (which I much prefer). (:
[21:32] <godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
[21:33] <belkinsa> All, was the draft of how to contribute talked about during the meeting?
[21:34] <godbyk> belkinsa: Not in any detail. Only that we should create one.
[21:34] <pleia2> I owe an email to the list about basic contributing to trusty
[21:35] <belkinsa> or any release.
[21:35] <littlegirl> Are you guys talking about contributing to the wiki?
[21:35] <pleia2> well, the idea is for every release and call for participation we send out an email with the basics
[21:35] <pleia2> so my email will specificially reference trusty in this case
[21:36] <belkinsa> Because I feel like we talked about many ways to use resources to write and check wiki pages on the list.
[21:36] <belkinsa> Oh, right, duh.
[21:36] <pleia2> that way we don't have people reading an "it's open!" and then have to dig through docs to figure out how to do something
[21:36] <belkinsa> Wiki pages and official docs.
[21:36] <pleia2> I'm referring to the shipped documentation, not wiki
[21:36] <littlegirl> godbyk: I ran the xmllint --format pagename.page command and am not completely satisfied with the results. I'll have to look whether there's a way to tweak it. (:
[21:36] <belkinsa> Oh, then never mind.
[21:37] <littlegirl> pleia2: Ah, okay. Well, if you need any help with the How To Use Bazaar or make changes to the repository files or commit and push them, I'd be happy to collaborate. (:
[21:38] <godbyk> littlegirl: There are a bunch of command-line options you can explore. See xmlline --help.
[21:38] <belkinsa> pleia2, mind if I work on  a guide for the wiki?
[21:38] <godbyk> littlegirl: xmlindent --help has some options, too.
[21:38] <belkinsa> Or at least to add to the one we have.
[21:38] <littlegirl> godbyk: Yep, I'm already in the man page and will check the --help afterward. If I can "bully" it into behaving the way I like, I'll be one happy camper. (:
[21:38] <pleia2> belkinsa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki
[21:39] <pleia2> belkinsa: if there are docs missing from those pages, please do work to improve them :)
[21:39] <godbyk> littlegirl: But if none of those work the way we want, we can whip up our own script to do the formatting the way we want. XML is pretty easy to work with.
[21:39] <belkinsa> Gotcha.
[21:39] <littlegirl> godbyk: Yeah, that's true. Okay, I'm game. (:
[21:39] <pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide should have most details though
[21:39] <godbyk> littlegirl: I think those existing scripts may not work quite like we want because they probably don't have a way to say 'wrap <p> tags but not <revision> tags', for instance.
[21:39] <belkinsa> It's more of how one can contribute to the wiki that is missing.
[21:40] <belkinsa> Oh, there's the guide that I needed!
[21:40] <littlegirl> godbyk: Well, it's occurring to me that even if they don't, at least if we ran that one simple command (without even inventing another) on all the files, at least they'd all be consistent in their presentation (unless it screws up something in any of them, but we'll be babysitting). (:
[21:42] <littlegirl> I wrote this a while ago, and although it's for Kubuntu, it gives an idea of the kind of stuff I can write: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/SystemDocumentation
[21:42] <pleia2> belkinsa: that WikiGuide page is linked twice on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki - maybe you can figure out a way to improve its visiblity on that page?
[21:42] <pleia2> belkinsa: I've seen these pages way, way too many times, my brain is useless :)
[21:43] <belkinsa> I can and there is also some other things I want to bring up.  For example Sandbox pages is one.
[21:43] <littlegirl> Sorry, that should have been directed to pleia2.
[21:43] <pleia2> "of course the link is there and there, it's always been there!"
[21:43] <godbyk> littlegirl: True. As long as the elements stay in the same order, the indentation and wrapping and whatnot don't matter too much.
[21:43] <pleia2> littlegirl: yeah, we re-wrote this last cycle: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
[21:43] <littlegirl> godbyk: And even if we don't love it, it's a baseline from which everything else can fall into place. (:
[21:44] <belkinsa> pleia2: Couldn't there be a ref to the guide right on the home page of wiki.ubuntu.com?
[21:44] <godbyk> littlegirl: Yeah. :)
[21:44] <littlegirl> pleia2: Ah, so you already have it in Ubuntu. (:
[21:44] <pleia2> belkinsa: no, wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community/ are different things
[21:45] <belkinsa> No- as in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/.
[21:45] <pleia2> belkinsa: we don't want references to how to get involved with help.ubuntu.com/community/ on the main wiki.ubuntu.com page, it would confuse people :\
[21:45] <littlegirl> godbyk: Well, let me have a bit of a play with xmllint and see if I can't make it dance. If not, then we can go ahead and use the basic command as our baseline for everything, and just have that as a very small script that we let users know about in the repository for any future edits or additions. (:
[21:45] <belkinsa> I was thinking under Get Involved heading.
[21:45] <belkinsa> But you maybe right.
[21:46] <littlegirl> pleia2: I feel very strongly that wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com are badly named and really, really, really should be renamed.
[21:46] <pleia2> belkinsa: I don't think it's fair to give a link to the docs team stuff there, there are dozens of teams within ubuntu
[21:46]  * littlegirl throws another really onto the pile for good measure
[21:46] <pleia2> littlegirl: indeed, it confuses everyone, but it's a bit too late to change things
[21:46] <littlegirl> pleia2: Hopefully it's not too late. I've been using Kubuntu for years, and I'm still confused to this day and have to look it up because I can't remember it. It's even worse for newbies. (:
[21:47] <pleia2> help.ubuntu.com/community should probably be docs.ubuntu.com as it's own wiki
[21:47] <belkinsa> +1
[21:47] <pleia2> but changing that now would be super painful, and I don't think we have the resources to do it (community + canonical IS resources)
[21:48] <littlegirl> pleia2: That's a shame. Hopefully they're at least talking about it and dusting it off at meetings from time to time so that maybe at some point it will get done. (:
[21:58] <shaunm> littlegirl: I guarantee the gnome docs team would let you at their documentation
[21:58] <shaunm> (responding to stuff said earlier)
[21:58] <littlegirl> shaunm: They might hesitate if they knew I use KDE, though. (:
[21:59] <shaunm> to clarify things: the order of any child elements of info, including link elements, does not matter (except in very rare corner cases that you should strive to avoid)
[21:59] <godbyk> shaunm: They only matter to me when I'm comparing the Ubuntu docs that we've inherited from the GNOME docs.
[22:00] <littlegirl> shaunm: I'm under the impression, though, that link elements display in the order they're placed in the document, though, right? In which case, if it's a matter of whether they display in alphabetical order in the raw document or whether they do so in the displayed document, the displayed document would trump, I think). (:
[22:00] <littlegirl> Yeah, and I'm trying not to make the comparisons too rough for godbyk when I do all this "violent" stuff to the docs. (:
[22:00] <shaunm> they are displayed alphabetical by their title. the order the link elements come in doesn't affect anything
[22:01] <littlegirl> If you look at all the .page files that start with a, they're all very pretty in their raw state, now. (:
[22:01] <littlegirl> shaunm: Oh, you just made me very happy. Then I could go through and alphabetize them in their raw state, too. (:
[22:02] <littlegirl> I literally like Mallard and Bzr so much that I'm thinking of using Mallard for my personal documents since I already use Bzr, and they fit so nicely together. (:
[22:02] <shaunm> I suppose the order of the link elements might make a difference if you link to two pages that have the same title. that's one of those very rare corner cases I mentioned that you should strive to avoid :)
[22:02] <shaunm> \o/
[22:02] <littlegirl> shaunm: True. (:
[22:02] <littlegirl> LOL, let me guess. You're a Mallard developer?
[22:03] <shaunm> yes, guilty
[22:04] <littlegirl> shaunm: Nice work! I like it better than DocBook! (:
[22:04] <shaunm> get KDE to switch ;)
[22:05] <godbyk> shaunm: I skimmed through your MEP about the <info> element the other day. I don't have any objections to it. Have there been a lot of requests for that sort of extension?
[22:05] <littlegirl> I wish I could. They've gone off of the repository entirely with the main body of the documentation and have it on the wiki. I'm *not* a wiki person, so I've kind of stopped helping out for the most part, although I still contribute sometimes. (:
[22:06] <shaunm> godbyk: it comes up occasionally
[22:07] <shaunm> or rather, something comes up that would be handled by it, like doing alt titles on expanders on figures
[22:07] <godbyk> shaunm: One idea that I had that would be helpful is to be able to add a package attribute to the revision element so you could specify that a page/section/whatever of documentation corresponds to a particular version of a package/application.
[22:07] <godbyk> Then I could run a script to find outdated documentation by comparing the documented package versions against the current package version.
[22:09] <godbyk> shaunm: Oh, and on another topic.. my earlier question about the comment block placement (i.e., it doesn't work at the end of a page). Is there anything in the documentation that explains why it's currently disallowed?
[22:20] <shaunm> godbyk: that's what pkgversion is for. 'yelp-check status' even lets you filter based on it
[22:21] <shaunm> as for comment blocks, basically you can't put any blocks after sections, mostly because it's difficult to come up with a sensible rendering for it. the same limitation exists in docbook
[22:22] <littlegirl> shaunm: There are many documents that have two revision elements inside the info element. I realize you can have as many as you like. What I'm wondering, though, is that some are revision version and others are revision pkgversion version, and the ones with pkgversion version have a different version number in them. Do you know who adds that element and whether it's important to preserve or update those versions?
[22:22] <shaunm> and not being able to put blocks in general (e.g. paragraphs) after sections never seems to bother people, but there have been a surprisingly large number of requests for comments after sections
[22:24] <littlegirl> shaunm: To embellish that a bit, the ones with revision version use the Ubuntu release number as their version. The ones with revision pkgversion version use 0.1 or 0.2 or 0.3 and I'm not sure what those represent.
[22:24] <godbyk> shaunm: Yeah, I found a few GNOME docs that had comments after sections. I may submit an MEP for that since it shouldn't impact rendering adversely.
[22:24] <shaunm> my guess is you're seeing version numbers inherited from gnome
[22:25] <shaunm> and gnome earlier on was very sloppy about how it used them
[22:25] <godbyk> shaunm: Per the pkgversion attribute, while it specifies the version, it doesn't specify the package *name*.
[22:26] <godbyk> Though I suppose if pkgversion is never used by yelp, etc., then I could use a packagename-version string for the pkgversion attribute.
[22:26] <littlegirl> So godbyk, can we get rid of those versions from the docs and just add the pkgversion attribute to the revision element and only have one revision element per document?
[22:26] <littlegirl> Some developer might want to know which package version a document is for, so keeping those is probably a good idea even if Yelp doesn't use them.
[22:26] <godbyk> littlegirl: Well, having the GNOME revision elements is handy as we don't always want the latest GNOME docs (since Ubuntu lags behind a bit).
[22:27] <littlegirl> godbyk: Ah, okay, that makes sense. (:
[22:34] <littlegirl> godbyk: I don't see any way to customize what xmllint does to a file, so we can just decide to use it as is or get people to install something else (not recommended) or write something ourselves. Which is most appealing to you?
[22:35] <godbyk> Hmm.. well, writing something ourselves shouldn't be too onerous. I could probably whip up a Python script pretty quickly.
[22:35] <godbyk> The benefit of having our own script is that we can customize the formatting to our exacting standards. :)
[22:35] <littlegirl> We should be able to help with it. My son and I are learning Python, and we're newbs, but already know a surprising amount. (:
[22:35] <godbyk> Ah, cool. We'll you're welcome to take first crack at it if you like.
[22:35]  * littlegirl can be kind of exacting at times (:
[22:36] <godbyk> You could also have the script handle the updating of the version numbers and status info.
[22:36] <godbyk> Might save you even more typing!
[22:36] <littlegirl> LOL
[22:37] <littlegirl> Anything we write might be a bit clunky and need some polishing, though, since we're still very definitely newbs. (:
[22:37] <godbyk> No problem. I don't write enough Python to be particularly good at it, either.
[22:38] <littlegirl> godbyk: If there's one that does version number and status updates, it should probably be a separate script full of sternly worded warnings. (:
[22:38] <littlegirl> godbyk: Oh, cool, then we can stumble through it together. (:
[22:38] <godbyk> That's true.


[00:07] <Ursinha> Flannel, are you canadian?
[00:08] <Flannel> Ursinha: No
[00:08] <Ursinha> because of this "eh"
[00:44] <Nafallo> Ursinha: huh?
[00:44] <Ursinha> ?
[00:45] <Nafallo> Ursinha: MJAU! *cuddles*
[00:45] <Ursinha> Nafallo, :)
[08:53] <th0r> one of you want to speak to ^Phantom^?
[08:54] <Flannel> Meh.  I look away for four minutes...
[08:54] <Myrtti> I think mute would be in order
[08:55] <Myrtti> or that
[08:55] <Flannel> I already mentioned it to him, and then watched him for like two minutes, and he was *fine* for those.
[08:58] <Myrtti> did you talk with him?
[08:58] <Myrtti> he returned to the channel
[08:59] <Myrtti> what is he on about?
[09:00] <Flannel> I honestly have no idea.  Oh, right.
[09:00] <Flannel> He's having emulator problems, finding a ROM on his drive or something.
[09:01] <Myrtti> yeah, but telling people to make their "team" to make sure stuff works first
[09:01] <Myrtti> a bit random
[09:29] <ikonia> bacta behaving like a moron in ##linux again
[09:29] <ikonia> worth noting for his constant requets to be unbanned in -ot
[10:08] <indus> how many ops are there in total
[10:09] <ikonia> indus: you can query the chanserv to see per channel
[10:09] <indus> how to?
[10:09] <ikonia> indus: does it matter how many there are ?
[10:09] <indus> i see 52 users in this room
[10:09] <indus> well just curious
[10:10] <ikonia> indus: well these will be for multiple channels, not everyone is for every channel
[10:10] <indus> aah ok,so how much for #ubuntu then
[10:10] <ikonia> or they can be people having issues resolved
[10:10] <Myrtti> /msg chanserv access #ubuntu list
[10:10] <Myrtti> anything else we can help you with?
[10:11] <indus> no thanks
[10:11] <ikonia> 37 at my count
[10:11] <indus> insufficient acess
[10:11] <ikonia> wrong command, try it again
[10:11] <Myrtti> [12:11] <+ikonia> 37 at my count
[10:11] <indus> nvm
[10:11] <ikonia> indus: it's 37 anyway
[10:12] <indus> ok thanks for that, wow 37 thats a lot
[10:12] <ikonia> not everyone is active at once
[10:12] <ikonia> it covers all time zones
[10:12] <indus> ok i go now
[10:57]  * jussi01 slaps ikonia around with a large trout
[11:00] <elky> ... interesting morning?
[11:00] <elky> (or night, for here)
[13:30] <Myrtti> !away > zz_BriGuy
 xchat-gnome devs need a cyanide sandwich  <--I suspect he is a troll; going back through logs he posted a very nasty link to a blog post about ubuntu
[14:06] <elky> charming
[15:21] <ikonia> genii-around: from  #debian
[15:21] <ikonia> 5:15 < strenn-> but i use kvirc too (exclusively for trolling)
[15:21] <genii-around> ikonia: Weird.
[15:22] <genii-around> Seems persistent too
[15:22] <ikonia> clear his intentions
[15:29] <elky> is this the same chap as the xchat-gnome comment?
[15:32] <ikonia> probably, not really been following
[17:55] <oly562> i can't ping a wireless printer server. it's ip is 192...104/24 and my ip is .90. simple network, used to work, but after loading 9.04 i can not ping it anymore from this wireless nic. my gw is standard, .1/24 and my nic is intel running wicd. UFW is off, and all other computers wired can ping that device and access it. there are no restrictions on the print server yet. Any suggestions?
[17:55] <oly562> oh and hello
[18:14] <nalioth> oly562: this is not #ubuntu
[18:15] <oly562> i know exactly wehre i am
[18:15] <oly562> do you use ubuntu/debian? nalioth .....
[18:15] <nalioth> obviously not, as this isn't a support channel
[18:16] <oly562> nothing is obvious
[18:17] <Myrtti> so, I suppose you'd want some support with youor ubuntu?
[18:18] <Myrtti> (minus typos)
[18:19] <oly562> yes
[18:19] <oly562> of course
[18:20] <Myrtti> and you can't get any because you're banned from #ubuntu
[18:20] <oly562> im sure your all pretty versed on debian/ubuntu, like flannel over there, he knows his shyt
[18:20] <oly562> yes Myrtti correct
[18:20] <oly562> i just want my issue solved
[18:20] <Myrtti> oly562: so what have you done so far to convince us to unban you?
[18:20] <oly562> well i simply would like to have my rights put back so i can ask the question above
[18:20] <oly562> thats all
[18:20] <oly562> i like ubuntu :)
[18:21] <oly562> i came over from redhat
[18:21] <oly562> and suse
[18:21] <oly562> and freebsd
[18:21] <Myrtti> and what have you done so far to convince us to trust you to unban you?
[18:21] <oly562> and whitebox
[18:21] <oly562> im simply going to ask my question
[18:21] <oly562> thats all
[18:21] <oly562> if i get help, great
[18:21] <oly562> if not, i will figure it out eventually
[18:22] <Myrtti> asking again, what have you done so far to convince us to trust you to unban you?
[18:23] <Myrtti> I'm not going to unban you, because there's marks and notes about you in the bantracker a considerable amount
[18:24] <Myrtti> so what have you learned since the last time you came here and tried to discuss and appeal your case?
[18:24] <oly562> to be polite
[18:25] <Myrtti> ikonia: if you're there, this would be a good time to say something
[18:29] <Myrtti> or anyone else for that matter
[18:32] <oly562> Flannel: you have a moment? i'd like to pm you with my technical issue. you know more than most about ubuntu,,, can you help for a sec or two?
[18:34] <nalioth> oly562: you can PM anyone you wish from outside this channel.  we're not here for support or solicitation of support
[18:34] <jussi01> oly562: once again, this is not technical help. I suggest you ask in ##linux
[18:36] <oly562>   # linux will point me to #ubuntu
[18:36] <oly562> nalioth: i understand
[18:36] <oly562> ill try that
[18:36] <oly562> thanks
[18:39] <jussi01> !idle | oly562
[18:39] <oly562> i been abuses
[18:39] <oly562> abused, and im just trying to solve and issue
[18:40] <oly562> nalioth: made it clear, i dont need a babysitter jussi01
[18:58] <Pricey> ugh seriously
[18:58] <Pricey> He was just rubbing it in with that openning line.
[19:01] <Pricey> Please someone tell me if I'm being stupid. "192...104/24 and my ip is .90" does not give you enough information to know his actual ip does it?
[19:02] <Myrtti> gives a good guess but nothing too certain
[19:02] <genii-around> I would assume 192...104/24 to be as 192.x.x.104 and the .90 to be 192.x.x.0 on same range
[19:03] <genii-around> 192.x.x.90    rather
[19:03] <Pricey> But you can't narrow it down to say... <IP_ADDRESS> ?
[19:04] <genii-around> Not from the info given
[19:04] <Pricey> Good, I'm not being stupid.
[19:04] <Pici> I never remember how to do the IP/24 mask calculations.
[19:05] <genii-around> Pici:  /25 is same as <IP_ADDRESS>
[19:05] <Myrtti> 11111111 11111111 11111111 00000000
[19:06] <genii-around> Bleh <IP_ADDRESS> rather. I'm getting re-acquainted with the desktop keyboard
[19:08] <Pici> And now for something completely different.  A screenshot that doesn't show off any new features and is very brown: http://nullcortex.com/upload/btdemo.png
[19:08] <Myrtti> that is very, very brown, I'll give you that
[19:09] <genii-around> Bleh
[19:09] <Pici> Actually, theres one feature, it knows my login name.
[21:13] <nixternal_> yo, how the hell do I forward a channel again? I am braindead on the subject right now
[21:14] <nalioth> nixternal: /mode #channel +b *!*@*!#target_channel
[21:15] <nixternal> ahh, groovy...thanks!
[21:47] <ikonia> Myrtti: thank you for dealing with oly - sorry I missed him
[22:40] <erUSUL> anyone around ? spamer in #ubuntu. floodbot cough him twice (i assume is the same person)
[22:40] <ikonia> ok
[22:40] <ikonia> logged out anyway, I'm watching now
[23:00] <ikonia> erUSUL: anything else ?


[00:03] <ikonia> rohan: I've removed the ban for you, apologies, I didn't do it at the time as we continued talking
[00:05] <IdleOne> awesome, now this can continue on the mailing list and hashed out in a civilized manner
[00:05] <IdleOne> please to be leaving the channel now :)
[00:06] <rohan> ikonia: thank you.
[00:14] <IdleOne> rohan: now would be a great time for you to part this channel.
[00:27] <Jordan_U> Is any of that scrollback worth reading?
[00:27] <ikonia> no
[00:28] <Jordan_U> Great :)
[00:28] <ikonia> 5 minutes of actual contnet, 50+ minutes of loop
[00:30] <ikonia> hello tigefa
[00:45] <rww> !trim =~ s/See/Ubuntu 14.04 activates it by default. For older versions, see/
[00:55] <ikonia> hello again tigefa
[00:59] <ikonia> tigefa: you're sending me ctcp pings so how can we help you ?
[02:42]  * hggdh sighs. Seems reading the backlog will be necessary, after all
[02:43] <valorie> huh, I guess I was already subbed to the ubuntu-irc list after all
[02:43] <valorie> rather low traffic!
[02:44] <valorie> hggdh: my sympathy
[02:52] <hggdh> heh
[03:03] <hggdh> hum. Wasn't there an email being written to the ML about op abuse, or whatever? I see nothing
[03:03] <IdleOne> lol
[03:03] <valorie> perhaps he sent to the IRCC?
[03:04] <hggdh> OTOH, maybe they are taking some time to cool off. I usually do that when I am mad at some(thing|one).
[03:04] <hggdh> valorie: I would have gotten it, then
[03:04] <IdleOne> you are surprised that someone said they would email the council and then didn't!?
[03:05] <valorie> IdleOne: he argued here for about an hour
[03:05] <valorie> seemed like longer....
[03:05] <valorie> sad, because he's usually a good guy
[03:05] <valorie> at least in #kubuntu
[03:05] <IdleOne> it happens
[03:05] <IdleOne> sometimes people get caught up in the argument and forget what they are arguing about
[03:06] <valorie> exactly
[03:06] <IdleOne> I do it a lot :/
[03:06] <hggdh> IdleOne: it always surprises me. "I will complain with the management!" (like if IRCC was management). Then, poof, gon
[03:06] <valorie> heh
[03:07]  * hggdh needs a scotch. Complex day, then bad theater ;-)
[03:08] <hggdh> (he *did* go to #u-irc-council, but did not wait long enough. And did that *before* coming in here
[03:09] <valorie> !
[03:09] <valorie> interesting
[03:10] <valorie> darn it, how do I link to a log of #ubuntu-meeting
[03:11] <valorie> nm, found it
[03:18] <rohan> ikonia: it's sad you feel the scrollback isn't worth reading :-/
[03:18] <rohan> it's easy to write someone off as a rambling lunatic, rather than understand the point.
[03:18] <valorie> no one said you were rambling, or a lunatic
[03:19] <rohan> valorie: that is what is implied :)
[03:19] <valorie> however, the discussion looped, and got nowhere
[03:19] <valorie> no
[03:19] <rohan> valorie: from my perspective, it was because no one wanted to see the point i was getting at.
[03:19] <valorie> I heard your point, and even understand your POV
[03:20] <rohan> which is easy to do, i understand -- as an op you have different point of view to a normal user
[03:20] <valorie> however, you *never listened* to what was needed for a healthy channel
[03:20] <valorie> in most channels I'm in, I'm not an op
[03:20] <rohan> unfortunately, to put it plainly, what happeend in #ubuntu felt like something that happens in an elitist community
[03:20] <rohan> valorie: i'm not singling you out :)
[03:20] <valorie> most of us have that same experience, rohan
[03:21] <rohan> eventually, the email to the list never happened because it doesn't feel like anyone is actually ready to listen with an open mind about op abuse
[03:21] <rohan> hggdh: ^^ to answer your question
[03:22] <rohan> if it's just going to be people on this channel, it's not going to be that much different
[03:23] <rohan> valorie: same experience where?
[03:23] <valorie> the same experience of just being chan members
[03:24] <rohan> the act of de-voicing someone is downright hostile! especially someone new to the community
[03:24] <valorie> the reason we got here as ops is helping out in channel, repeatedly
[03:24] <rohan> as is the act of banning someone who is having discussion in a separate channel
[03:24] <valorie> gah!
[03:25] <rohan> valorie: did you get a chance to check the scrollback of #ubuntu and see why the guy was de-voiced?
[03:25] <valorie> no, I'm not in that channel
[03:25] <valorie> too big, too busy
[03:26] <valorie> certainly too busy for joking
[03:26] <rohan> valorie: which is even more of a reason why ops should be more courteous and not so trigger-happy
[03:26] <valorie> rohan: i wish we were doing this face to face, over a beer
[03:26] <valorie> or a coffee
[03:27] <IdleOne> rohan: the IRCC are also ops in the ubuntu namespace, but if you take the time to send an email and explain your concerns they will take it seriously. If your goal is to just scream and yell chances are it will be ignored. This right now seems to me like you are just looking for a reason to complain.
[03:27] <rohan> IdleOne: i'm already aware of the stereotype you think i am. reiterating that, instead of trying to understand my point, is neither here nor there
[03:28] <IdleOne> I'm not saying you are right or wrong about what you are concerned about. I just think that rehashing it here is not going to help any
[03:28] <IdleOne> rohan: what stereotype is it you think I think you are?
[03:29] <rohan> IdleOne: an email would not be much different from this scrollback: when asked, someone would just say "it's not worth reading" and things will be where they are
[03:29] <IdleOne> one person said that
[03:29] <IdleOne> I am saying that you should email the ircc
[03:29] <IdleOne> I think your concerns are valid and worth being brought to the council
[03:30] <rohan> i am saying that from the interaction and the attitude around here, that's just more of banging my head against the wall
[03:30] <tsimpson> rohan: an email is infinitely easier to read than hours of scrollback from multiple channels, it allows you to set out your points clearly and for others to address them
[03:30] <tsimpson> if you have a problem with the way things are done, which it seems you do, please do consider writing an email
[03:30] <IdleOne> and you can easily link to the relevant logs of those channels
[03:30] <hggdh> rohan: really? Since you did not send the email, you will not be able to find out. So far, although I think you had some merit on your points, you attitude sort of blows it out
[03:32] <rohan> hggdh: really. want to read the part where CarlFK tells me to go get a life.. or where ikonia calls me pathetic?
[03:33] <rohan> hggdh: in part, replies like yours are exactly the reason i don't feel inclined to send an email: after a certain point, people here are just bucketizing the whole conversation into an attitude problem i have and thus not worth listening to.
[03:33] <IdleOne> Is your goal to get someone "punished" no matter who? We don't punish people here. We are all intelligent people and we can admit when we make mistakes (sometimes it takes longer for some to do so)
[03:34] <rohan> IdleOne: is your goal to allow normal users to then get punished (ban for a week)?
[03:35] <IdleOne> So you have 3-4 people here now who have told you that we all think you have valid concerns. We all would like you to express those concerns calmly and clearly. An email would allow you to take the time to do that.
[03:35] <valorie> banning is not punishment
[03:35] <valorie> ops don't hand out punishment
[03:36] <valorie> those who do would soon be gone
[03:38] <hggdh> rohan: please do expose -- in an email -- your points. Stick to the facts. Do not enter in *any* discussion about the ability, capability, integrity, or whatever of *ANY* person in an IRC channel. EVEN if you think they deserve whatever it is they might deserve. Tone down. I will be happy to discuss it with you and any other involved.
[03:40] <hggdh> BUT -- the way things are said matter.
[03:41] <hggdh> rohan: one more thing. We, here, know the channel is logged.
[03:44] <rohan> valorie: banning for a week without any kind of provocation, devoicing for a provocation, banning for a joke -- they all sound like punishments, unfortunately
[03:44] <rohan> hggdh: i don't see you telling any of your ops buddies to  tone down. i don't see you telling anyone else to stop discussing the list of things you gave.
[03:45] <rohan> hggdh: i know you know the channel is logged -- what is your point?
[03:45] <IdleOne> you didn't see it so it didn't happen?
[03:46]  * hggdh ill wait for the email. Nothing more to be gained on this discussion.
[03:46] <IdleOne> Again it looks like you are wanting some sort of public flogging for the ops you think did something wrong
[03:48] <IdleOne> Tell your side to the IRCC, the ops will tell theirs and if/when behavioral adjustments need to be made they will.
[03:51] <hggdh> rohan: now, if you are done, please leave this channel
[03:52] <rohan> hggdh: no, i am not.
[03:52] <rww> oh for crying out loud
[03:53] <rohan> IdleOne: there has to be some kind of a process for ops who think it's ok to ban people willy-nilly. there is none. i don't care about flogging -- i don't even know the guy, i am not going to jump in glee whether or not anything happens
[03:53] <rww> rohan: If you have issues to discuss with Ubuntu's core ops in general (e.g. suggestions for improvement), please email<EMAIL_ADDRESS>If you'd like to complain about a particular operator or group of them, please contact the IRCC.
[03:53] <rww> Talking in this channel is clearly not getting you anywhere, so let's not.
[03:53] <IdleOne> rohan: the process is to email the IRCC and explain your concerns
[03:53] <rohan> IdleOne: flogging is a harsh word, but if you must use it, what k1l_ did was no less than flogging
[03:54] <rohan> rww: point taken.
[03:54] <IdleOne> rohan: I agree flogging is a harsh word. I used it for dramatic effect
[03:54] <rww> rohan: Thank you. Have a nice evening, and I hope things go better over email.
[03:55] <hggdh> rohan: IRCC's email<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[03:55] <hggdh> rohan: IRCC email is only accessible by the IRCC members.
[03:56] <rohan> rww: i can tell you now if this is representative of the attitude, it is not
[03:56] <rohan> rww: thanks for your wishes though
[04:02] <CarlFK> rohan: there is an appeals process for people who want a ban lifted.  There are places to discuss changing the guidelines.  There are places to report ops that you feel need reporting.
[04:02] <CarlFK> rohan: debating it here is not the place.
[04:02] <rww> I think we all know that, and continuing this conversation isn't going to make it more productive.
[04:04] <rohan> like hggdh said, even if i did have a point, there has been too much bitterness for it to now make any difference
[04:04] <rohan> eventually, the person who i feel was wrong (adam something or the other) is not even around and probably doesn't care, neither does k1l_
[04:07] <tsimpson> rohan: that's why I suggested email to begin with, it'll be much easier for you to raise your issues and for everyone to have a debate about it
[04:07] <tsimpson> much easier than on IRC here
[04:08] <rohan> tsimpson: look at the general attitude around here, do you think anyone would really be encouraged to send an email?
[04:08] <tsimpson> rohan: then bring that up too
[04:10] <tsimpson> rohan: you have a choice here. you can either just accept what happened and move on with your life, or you can try sending an email and see where that goes. it's up to you which you do, but I'm asking you to go the email route personally
[04:10] <rohan> tsimpson: i agree.
[04:11] <rohan> to anyone who feels wronged by me -- i apologise!
[07:28] <ikonia> and trying to make an issue out of anything
[07:28] <ikonia> hi to rohan reading the logs
[07:28] <ikonia> I look forward to reading your email
[07:28] <bazhang> heh
[08:01] <ikonia> does ubottu not prompt for a comment/duration on mutes only bans ?
[08:01] <bazhang> depends on how well it's working. I sometimes get prompted for /remove's even
[08:02] <ikonia> ok, so maybe just a glitch
[08:02] <bazhang> yes, for sure
[08:02] <ikonia> I'll set it manually and dig out the id, just wondered on the logic
[08:02] <Flannel> mutes should never last long enough to need a duration.
[08:02] <ikonia> hit and run homophobe, was just going to put a couple of hour duration on in case he came back
[08:02] <Flannel> (I've never been asked about mutes)
[08:03] <ikonia> wanted to put on a duration incase it was forgot about
[08:03] <ikonia> didn't want it to linger there
[08:04] <ikonia> guy logged off as soon as I messaged him to ask him not to do it
[08:04] <ikonia> a durtion seems a reasonable step rather than possibly forgetting about it ?
[08:05] <ikonia> or have missunderstood what you said
[08:05] <bazhang> or have the bot set an auto duration of a certain time
[08:05] <ikonia> yes, that's what I was doing
[08:05] <ikonia> putting a duration on so it auto removed
[08:05] <ikonia> an hour, two tops
[08:05] <bazhang> not sure if ubot has that feature
[08:06] <ikonia> yeah it does
[08:06] <ikonia> you can use @duration against any id
[08:06] <bazhang> eir default +b is 24h, ubot should have something similar available
[08:06] <ikonia> I believe it treats a mute the same as a ban
[08:06] <ikonia> it does have a default I think
[08:06] <ikonia> but I didn't want it that long
[08:06] <bazhang> ok
[08:06] <ikonia> just thought a duration of 1h seemed a quick / simple way
[08:07] <bazhang> so having the @duration makes sense
[08:07] <ikonia> thats what I thought, but I just wondered if I was doing it wrong based on what Flannel says, but I miss-read and see the point he's making
[08:08] <bazhang> he meant super short duration
[08:08] <ikonia> well, that was the plan
[08:08] <bazhang> for carswell
[08:08] <ikonia> if he'd stuck around rather than hit and run
[08:08] <bazhang> he does taht now and again
[08:08] <ikonia> yeah thats the chap
[08:08] <ikonia> ooh really so he's known
[08:09] <ikonia> ahh seems like it was worth putting a duration of an hour on in case he came back
[08:15] <Pricey> Christ... is there any way rohan could have come out of that discussion well?
[08:15] <bazhang> with christ?
[08:15] <ikonia> Pricey: I thought he was going to, after he stopped swearing, he clamed down and actually had a reasonable discussion
[08:15] <ikonia> but then went on a witch hunt again, and it sort of lost traction
[08:16] <Pricey> ikonia: Sorry no I wasn't criticising him, I was pissed off at you lot.
[08:16] <ikonia> fair enoug
[08:16] <ikonia> enough
[08:18] <Pricey> k1l_: Banning him in #ubuntu after he followed your instructions and came here to complain was a bit of a dick move imo.
[08:20] <Pricey> I don't see how a week long ban would ever help anyone in that situation... it's solely a punishment?
[08:20] <ikonia> Pricey: it was removed
[08:20] <ikonia> we talked about it and agreed it was rash
[08:20] <ikonia> hence why I removed it
[08:20] <ikonia> it just got a bit heated due to how strong he approached it
[08:20] <ikonia> bad calls happen,
[08:20] <Pricey> The only problem with that situation was "how strong he approached it"?
[08:20] <Pricey> Absolutely none of the blame on anyone else for the escalation? :-/
[08:20] <ikonia> I wasn't following the conversation until k1l_ banned him
[08:20] <ikonia> as the swearing hilight triggered me
[08:20] <ikonia> I think the whole thing was heated and escalated
[08:20] <Pricey> And that's *our* fault.
[08:21] <ikonia> I think both had a fair part to play
[08:21] <ikonia> it didn't need to be heated and was
[08:21] <ikonia> hence why I wanted to remove the ban from him and get him to a happier state
[08:28] <ikonia> to be honest, the whole thing appeared to be a staged issue for of condraticitions
[08:28] <ikonia> where someone comes in with nazi comments and then says "its ok"
[08:28] <bazhang> thats a first for IRC
[08:28] <ikonia> then he says he's been in ubuntu for ages
[08:28] <ikonia> then he says he's knew to the community
[08:29] <ikonia> I think there are some valid points and things can be done better, but I don't think abuse towards the team members for a bad call should be tollerated, nor do I think a witch hunt is needed
[08:29] <Pricey> I'd hardly call what I've read from him "abuse"...
[08:29] <ikonia> really, you don't mind having nazi references and being called names ?
[08:29] <bazhang> removing from ops? seriously?
[08:30] <ikonia> Pricey: perhaps you should become more active again if possible
[08:30] <ikonia> act as a refresher
[08:30] <valorie> Pricey: I've talked with him for months, and he's been fine
[08:30] <bazhang> take the steering wheel
[08:30] <valorie> today he was on a tear
[08:30] <Pricey> valorie: rohan?
[08:30] <valorie> yes
[08:31] <valorie> he's been in #kubuntu for months
[08:31] <ikonia> he also said he'd been in #ubuntu for years
[08:31] <valorie> I noticed the nick because I have a friend named rohan
[08:31] <ikonia> maybe that's just a communication missunderstanding
[08:31] <bazhang> ikonia, he said he was new, I thought
[08:31] <ikonia> ahh sorry, hesaid ages
[08:31] <ikonia> not years
[08:31] <ikonia> 22:52 < rohan> i have been on #ubuntu for ages, and a year or so back, the channel was not this uptight
[08:32] <ikonia> possibly just wording/langage error,
[08:33] <Pricey> ikonia: Nice.
[08:33] <ikonia> ?
[08:33] <ikonia> nice
[08:33] <ikonia> what do you mean ?
[08:34] <valorie> sorry, must part - late here
[08:34] <bazhang> bye valorie
[08:37] <ikonia> Pricey: sorry didn't hilight, what do you mean
 but i mean ubuntugnome is a new desktop basic from ubuntu, and it's wrong ?
[08:44] <bazhang> if ubuntu is in the name, how can it be wrong???
[09:03] <k1l_> Pricey: Pricey the users only contribution to #ubuntu was remarks against ops and insult of another user, then coming here (after the hint from ikonia) and instead of discussing in a civil manner he starts with comparing my action to hitlers blitzkrieg and calling me dictator and other offences and insults. i still dont think that behaviour is in any way matching the guidelines or Code of Conduct and i thought he will stirr up trouble in #ubuntu again. (li
[09:04] <Pricey> k1l_: chopped off after '#ubuntu again.'
[09:04] <k1l_> in #ubuntu again. (like he did just before he came in here)
[09:05] <Pricey> k1l_: http://scripts.irssi.org/scripts/splitlong.pl ftw
[09:06] <k1l_> thx, usually i dont do that long posts outside forums or mails :)
[09:29] <elky> your bar for "stir up trouble" is uncomfortably low
[09:45] <k1l_> elky: it was a heavy action from my side. but the user was that aggressive and offencive that i did no think he would stick to the guidelines and CoC in #ubuntu too.
 12.10 is no longer supported, you should fix da topic :D
[11:39] <k1l> can someone confirm? i failed last time i changed 12.10 to unsupported and will try not to make a mess this time
[11:40] <jussi> k1l: EOL is today, according to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
[11:42] <k1l> ok, so better wait for tomorrow :)
[11:43] <jussi> :)
[12:06] <elky> it's kinda confusing having a release eol every few months when the releases are 6mo apart
[12:07] <elky> but also, it is may 16 on the future hemisphere
[12:13] <jussi> elky: yeah, can get that way, but its a small issue I think
[12:13] <elky> at least my vps won't eol while i'm in between countries this time
[12:14] <elky> i've got like 6 weeks after to upgrade it!
[12:38] <cprofitt> hello all...
[12:38] <cprofitt> sent a reply to the list -- asking for reflection...
[12:38] <cprofitt> gotta run to a meeting right now, but will be back soon if there is a need to discuss.
[13:14] <phunyguy> elky: yeah, these last few were weird because of the change from 18mo to 9mo support cycle.
[16:39] <User346> stu "d!ckless" lantz betrays all; trannys & queers(chaste Homos/a$$holes), rule
[18:45] <ikonia> hello again tigefa
[18:49] <ikonia> !id | tigefa
[19:41] <genii> I was sooooo tempted to do something like <cough>"RTFM"<cough> in -ot
[20:09] <Jordan_U> ikonia: That last comment was really not a great way to de-escalate a situation.
[20:09] <ikonia> Jordan_U: I know
[20:35] <ikonia> hello Guest69859
[20:38] <ikonia> bye Guest69859
[21:14] <ikonia> @mark #kubuntu jParkton terrible attitude, lies about help information
[22:44] <sarnold> hello, Godzilla1954III looks like he's about to become annoying in #ubuntu-server -- he was around and laughing the othe day when another nick was being a royal pain..
[22:51] <Unit193> cloudman doesn't help matters.
[22:53] <sarnold> yeah. unless you can swing a /kill or a /kickban, it doesn't usually help much to say anything.
[22:56] <Unit193> Depends on the person, I'll wait a minute and then I can just check irclogs.u.com


[01:09] <h3sp4wn> pwnguin: Not sure about apt-get but there is some .tex files that explain the algorithm of aptitude
[01:18] <DanaG> Hmm, nice way to crash glchess:
[01:18] <DanaG> Start AI-vs-AI.  Watch game freeze when you press "Start".
[01:23] <DanaG> Correction: open "AI Information" first.
[01:28] <sayers> How do I configure Cdrecord to run with root privlages?
[01:51] <crimsun> DanaG: pavucontrol + paman src reuploaded; should be available tomorrow or the day after
[02:01] <DanaG> I think they're actually working already.
[02:01] <DanaG> There were some glademm and glibmm updates some time yesterday or today.
[02:02] <DanaG> That reminds me ... I should test audio capture with the new kernel.
[02:02] <crimsun> they're not working.
[02:02] <crimsun> they're broken, else I wouldn't have rebuilt locally to confirm a fix and then uploaded the source. :)
[02:03] <DanaG> Hmm, they got fixed some time, then re-broke, apparently,
[02:03] <DanaG> .
[02:03] <crimsun> yes
[02:03] <crimsun> libglademm2.4 stack breakage
[02:03] <crimsun> now that the stack breakage is fixed (glibmm -> gtkmm -> glademm), we can punt the source
[02:04] <DanaG> Odd, capture is still not working.
[02:05] <DanaG> arecord -fcd -Dhw:0,0
[02:05] <DanaG> Recording WAVE 'stdin' : Signed 16 bit Little Endian, Rate 44100 Hz, Stereo
[02:05] <DanaG> RIFF$WAVEfmt Ddataarecord: pcm_read:1346: read error: Input/output error
[02:05] <crimsun> are you positive it's not a hardware error?
[02:05] <DanaG> It works under XP and Vista,
[02:06] <DanaG> and in some old kernel version I could cat /dev/dsp to /dev/dsp and get (noisy) output that matched input.
[02:06] <DanaG> But ALSA recording has never worked on that card, for me.
[02:07] <crimsun> interesting.  I presume -Dplughw:0,0 gives identical results/
[02:07] <DanaG> Yes.
[02:08] <crimsun> has the subdevice shifted per definition?
[02:08] <DanaG> It actually hangs on the last invalid-character thing for a few seconds.
[02:08] <crimsun> plughw:0,1?
[02:08] <DanaG> should I run the alsa-info.sh script?
[02:08] <crimsun> `cat /proc/asound/devices` will suffice
[02:08] <DanaG> card 0: Intel [HDA Intel] , device 0: STAC92xx Analog [STAC92xx Analog]
[02:09] <DanaG> has 2 subdevices.
[02:09] <DanaG> card 0: Intel [HDA Intel] , device 6: Si3054 Modem [Si3054 Modem]
[02:09] <DanaG> has 1 subdevice.
[02:09] <Jordan_U> Anybody know if the spec for having a separate /home partition by default is likely to be implemented in Gutsy ?
[02:09] <DanaG> that's arecord -l (lowercase L)
[02:12] <DanaG> I remember my BIOS changelog had a couple of entries about "Change audio verb table for Vista DTM test."
[02:22] <crimsun> DanaG: those options are very important.
[02:22] <crimsun> as in vitally important.
[02:22] <crimsun> they essentially rearrange the NIDs
[02:34] <Jordan_U> How likely is it that Gutsy will install with a separate /home partition by default?
[02:35] <Stormx2> I doubt it, Jordan_U
[02:36] <RAOF> Jordan_U: For non-technical users, there are goood reasons not to do that, I think.
[02:37] <Jordan_U> RAOF, Like what?
[02:38] <RAOF> Well, like "how do you pick a sane / partition size"?  Remember, / will contain /tmp, and a number of programs will, by default, write huge files to /tmp
[02:38] <Jordan_U> I think it is better for non technical users because if they screw something up and don't know how to fix it they will often just re-install, this will give them the option of saving their data and preferences
[02:38] <Jordan_U> True
[02:38] <crimsun> You also need to recognise that user preferences represent a non-trivial portion of bugs in updated applications.
[02:39] <crimsun> A rather non-trivial portion of bugs can be resolved by simply nuking the preference directories.
[02:39] <pwnguin> how about LVM by default?
[02:39] <RAOF> That would be cool, and would allow separate /home by default.
[02:39] <RAOF> For an example of preference bugs, check out bug #121836
[02:40] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 121836 in deluge-torrent "deluge crashed with ImportError in find_class()" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/121836
[02:40] <RAOF> What would be needed for LVM by default?  I've considered creating a spec for that.
[02:41] <Jordan_U> I don't think ubiquity currently supports LVM
[02:41] <RAOF> Oh, yeah.  Of course.
[02:42] <DanaG> Oh, I was out watering the plants. I forgot to set /away.
[02:42] <DanaG> I'm back now.
[02:43] <DanaG> The BIOS changelog didn't specifically explain HOW they changed them.
[02:45] <DanaG> Hmm, new Vista driver INI has this:
[02:45] <DanaG> Initverbs = hex: 0xff,0xf8,0x17,0x00,0x7f,0xf8,0x17,0x00,0x40,0xf8,0x17,0x00,0x7f,0xf8,0x17,0x00,0x40,0xf8,0x17,0x00,0x7f,0xf8,0x17,0x00,0x40,0xf8,0x17,0x00,0x00,0xf8,0x17,0x00,0x02,0xf9,0x17,0x00,0x00,0xf9,0x17,0x00
[02:45] <DanaG> TraceFlags = dword: 0x89B3
[02:45] <DanaG> I'll dig up the old XP one.
[02:47] <h3sp4wn> anywhere with emacs22 deb's for gutsy ?
[02:50] <DanaG> www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette
[02:50] <DanaG> there's gateway_pa6_stac9250_{xp,vista}.ini
[02:50] <DanaG> (2 separate files)
[02:51] <gnomefreak> h3sp4wn: packages.ubuntu.com
[02:52] <gnomefreak> nvm not merged yet
[02:52] <DanaG> Hmm, if you diff the two inf files, and disregard everything but pin-configs, there ARE some changes.
[02:53] <gnomefreak> DanaG: for windows topics join #ubuntu-offtopic
[02:54] <DanaG> It's not a windows topic -- it's actually a "fix my HD Audio device" topic, using the windows driver INI files for reference.
[02:54] <gnomefreak> DanaG: than do it without the play by play
[02:56] <h3sp4wn> gnomefreak: Is the merge window not closed ?
[02:57] <gnomefreak> h3sp4wn: no far from it
[02:57] <gnomefreak> well far from it in 6 months release terms
[02:59] <h3sp4wn> gnomefreak: Is that not an upstream merge then ?
[02:59] <h3sp4wn> Remaining upstream merges completed (21 June)
[02:59] <gnomefreak> debian merge if its in debian
[02:59] <h3sp4wn> Its not
[02:59] <gnomefreak> than gutsy wont get it
[02:59] <h3sp4wn> ?
[03:00] <gnomefreak> well cant say that, it would take a soild request (unless its in NEW and maybe thats where i saw it)
[03:00] <gnomefreak> let me check NEW
[03:03] <crimsun> h3sp4wn: it would go into universe regardless.  Have you recompiled the Debian experimental source package?
[03:05] <gnomefreak> it is in debian than
[03:06] <h3sp4wn> crimsun: Its quite old, (prior to it actually been released)
[03:08] <h3sp4wn> http://emacs.orebokech.com - That the only repository I have seen with upto date ones in
[03:08] <h3sp4wn> He is a debian developer though
[03:09] <h3sp4wn> And presumably whoever does add it has the responsibilty of making sure all the extra stuff works on it
[03:44] <DanaG> Oh, lovely
[03:44] <DanaG> .
[05:00] <Zelut> if I have Tribe 1 is there an efficient upgrade to Tribe 2 or do I just need the whole new .iso?
[05:01] <RAOF> Zelut: Just keep updating.
[05:01] <Zelut> RAOF: well I don't have it installed, just the .iso.
[05:02] <RAOF> Oh, well then you could rsync the new iso, that'd be quicker.
[05:02] <Zelut> I couldn't find an rsync mirror to the dailys or at cdimage.ubuntu.com
[05:05] <Zelut> I tried jigdo but that didn't seem to cut it
[05:10] <Netham46> is there a beta of Gutsy available?
[05:11] <Zelut> Netham46: just the first alpha, still very new.
[05:11] <Netham46> ok
[05:11] <Netham46> is it stable enough to run for fun?
[05:12] <Netham46> like, as a desktop
[05:12] <Zelut> on a spare machine..
[05:12] <Zelut> I wouldn't do it on your primary desktop
[05:12] <Netham46> my 'spare' machine is a P3 256mb RAM
[05:12] <Netham46> it doesn't boot dapper.
[05:12] <Netham46> Ok
[05:12] <Netham46> my desktop's been running Feisty since the alpha. :D
[05:13] <Netham46> before that, I was on Edgy
[05:13] <Netham46> before that, I was on Redhat Fedora something
[05:17] <Zelut> hmm.. jigdo tells me 0 of all files found.  has *everything* changed between tribe 1 and todays daily?
[05:18] <Netham46> does anyone know a way I could get Ubuntu installed on this PC?
[05:18] <Netham46> It's got too little memory, 256 MB
[05:19] <Zelut> Netham46: try Xubuntu
[05:19] <Netham46> it has the same X server, right?
[05:20] <Netham46> actually, Edgy just dies, it can't even get to a terminal there is so little memory.
[05:20] <Zelut> most likely the same X server, but different desktop environment--you're not going to get gnome if that is what you mean.
[05:20] <Netham46> I know, XFCE.
[05:20] <Netham46> I know about the WM's
[05:21] <Netham46> hey! Gutsy's final release date is on my birthday. :D
[05:24] <Dannilion> when be your birthday?
[05:24] <Netham46> Oct. 18'th
[05:25] <Dannilion> Nice. 4 months after my birthday.
[05:25] <Netham46> lol
[05:50] <DanaG> How do you move a stream by commandline with pulseaudio?
[05:51] <DanaG> yay, got it.
[05:52] <DanaG> list-sink-inputs and move-sink-input.
[05:52] <DanaG> Cool, now my music is back on my external device.
[05:53] <DanaG> argh, exit in pactl ends pulseaudio.
[05:55] <DanaG> Aah, looks like I needed ctrl-d.
[05:56] <Netham46> ctrl + d?
[05:57] <DanaG> Sends EOF.  Apparently, pactl connects to the running daemon, so exit exits the daemon.  Instead, give it EOF and it'll let go of the terminal.
[05:57] <Netham46> ah
[05:57] <Netham46> ok
[06:34] <cps1966> is there no mozilla ??
[06:34] <cps1966> or seamonkey
[06:36] <RAOF> !find mozilla
[06:36] <ubotu> Found: liferea, mozilla-firefox-locale-af, mozilla-firefox-locale-ar, mozilla-firefox-locale-bg-bg, mozilla-firefox-locale-bn-bd (and 76 others)
[06:37] <cps1966> guess i use konqueror then
[06:37] <RAOF> There is firefox, of course.
[06:38] <cps1966> i dont care for firefox
[06:38] <DanaG> !seamonkey
[06:38] <ubotu> Seamonkey, formerly known as "Mozilla Application Suite", is available at http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/ with install instructions for ubuntu at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=186011
[07:01] <DanaG> Odd: the new Appearance panel doesn't apply antialiasing settings on the fly.
[07:10] <RAOF> Netham46: What about it?  It sucks?  It's an old 2d card masquerading as a 3d card?
[07:13] <phin> why not just get a new card?
[07:26] <DanaG> The oldest desktop video card I have around here: Voodo3.  Oh wait, I have some old ISA VGA (yes, VGA) card around here somewhere, too.
[07:26] <DanaG> The oldest laptop video card: NeoMagic.
[07:27] <DanaG> With a whopping 2.5 megabytes of video RAM -- and a 16-bit-color LCD to go with it -- not enough video ram for 1024x768x24.
[11:55] <shiris1> sorry, the desktop freezed
[11:58] <shiris1> OT guys how do I get my name back, its registered & not being used
[12:19] <Tm_T> ):
[12:19] <Tm_T> that's evil
[12:19] <Tm_T> now we don't know how it ends
[12:22] <Pumpernickel> I dunno, that looks like a good ending to me.
[12:25] <Tm_T> no it doesn
[12:25] <Tm_T> 't
[01:43] <Dannilion> Bleh!
[01:48] <jussi01> lol
[01:49] <Dannilion> Well, it's either that or go mess with the spam controls on the server, which I don't want to do again
[01:52] <jussi01> hehe...not nice...
[02:55] <Hobbsee> TRIBE 2 RELEASED!!!
[03:05] <gnomefreak> yay we unfreeze shortly :)
[03:06] <jussi01> yay
[03:07] <Hobbsee> :D
[03:08] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: already unfrozen
[03:08] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: i just got an accepted mail for mesa
[03:08] <Hobbsee> might take a while to build it, etc, though
[03:08] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: ah ok cool
[03:21] <Dannilion> Does this mean I have another big download to hammer my mobile phone with? :p
[03:31] <Hobbsee> Dannilion: probably
[03:31] <Dannilion> okay
[03:34] <Hobbsee> i can withhold uploading parts of kde if you want :P
[03:35] <Dannilion> no no, it's ok :D
[03:35] <Dannilion> T-Mobile haven't complained yet :p
[03:37] <Hobbsee> hehe
[03:58] <Ind[y] > Greetings. If someone is interested to be a packager/maintainer, is there a special procedure they must follow?
[04:02] <dendrobates> ind[y] : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment
[04:02] <Ind[y] > dendrobates: I see. Thank you.
[05:39] <shirish> guys can somebody tell me where I can find the icon of gnome-screenshot I have not been able to find the icon in /usr/share/pixmaps or maybe I should be looking at somewhere else? The icon is there though in the application, but can't seem to find from where it took that icon
[07:18] <askand> will feisty-fusion be default in gutsy?
[07:18] <shirish> askand: it is supposed to be , yes
[07:18] <askand> shirish: what are the news in gutsy?
[07:20] <shirish> askand: as far as I know firefox-granparadiso is gonna be there, compiz-fusion, GRUB 2 (don't think default though) and some other stuff , not much up on it, sorry
[07:20] <shirish> ubotu gutsy
[07:20] <ubotu> Gutsy Gibbon is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (7.10). See https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-April/000276.html and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule - Roadmap and specifications: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy - Support in #ubuntu+1
[07:20] <shirish> you can check those links
[07:21] <Pici> Whats fiesty-fusion?
[07:21] <askand> shirish: ok..so basicly almost only updates of softwares..not ubuntu itself?
[07:21] <Pici> askand: Whats the different?
[07:21] <shirish> ubuntu also
[07:21] <Pici> er, difference?
[07:21] <askand>  Pici: hmm..compiz-fusion I meant..its beryl+compiz
[07:22] <Pici> askand: Right.
[07:22] <Pici> askand: I meant, whats the difference between an update of the software and ubuntu itself. Ubuntu is just the sum of its parts.
[07:23] <askand> Pici: hrm..what is the ubuntu team doing then? : o
[07:23] <JanDM_> theyf ix bugs in the software as well...
[07:25] <Hobbsee> and update it and make sure it all works well together and fixes bugs, and writes some of their own stuff, etc
[07:25] <Hobbsee> and produces cds, etc, etc, etc
[07:26] <JanDM_> we don't have to be afraid there is nothing left for them ;)
[07:26] <Hobbsee> uh, no
[07:26] <Hobbsee> there's always stuff left to do
[07:26] <shirish> askand: there is apport-gtk as well as lot of things in bzr etc.
[09:13] <coNP> it's time I upgraded my system
[09:16] <shirish> coNP: you still not on gutsy?
[09:17] <sayers> Gusty works good afaik
[09:18] <shirish> sayers: aye aye (which means touche or I hear you :) )
[09:18] <coNP> without a daily upgrade
[09:18] <coNP> I had a final exam today
[09:18] <coNP> no time to upgrade yet :)
[09:18] <shirish> aha, ok cool
[09:18] <sayers> anyway going to install it
[09:19] <shirish> I'm constantly upgrading, every 3-4 hrs. whenever my regional mirrors shows any updates
[09:19] <yuriy> i'm still on feisty, i ought to get on that
[09:19] <coNP> topic says yuriy is the wisest among us :D
[09:20] <shirish> coNP: say could you try to install unifont & see if you get this bug 122565
[09:20] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 122565 in unifont "unifont-bin is not able to find /usr/lib/X11/fonts/misc directory" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/122565
[09:21] <shirish> coNP: its a small file hardly 600 kb a font file actually.
[09:21] <coNP> shirish: sure I'll try
[09:22] <shirish> coNP: lemme know if it installs at your end without showing that stuff.
[09:28] <roger> With Tribe 2 running Compiz I'm not getting any window previews in the virtual desktop switcher in the bottom right - only the current desktop shows any windows previews. Has anyone else noticed the same thing?
[09:31] <shirish> coNP: were u able to install it?
[09:33] <coNP> I tried
[09:33] <coNP> I don't know how to test if the font is installed or not
[09:33] <coNP> the warning you mentioned is written out
[10:04] <davmor2> Hi guys.  quick query.  I think I have an issue with synaptic but I'm not sure if it is synaptic or compiz causing the issue.  When you select a package and want to "mark recommended packages"  it doesn't.  so my question is it compiz or synaptic or a mixture of the 2
[10:08] <gnomefreak> davmor2: hint disable compiz log out than back in so compiz doesnt start up and try it :)
[10:08] <gnomefreak> if it works its compiz if it doesnt work its something else
[10:09] <davmor2> nice
[10:15] <DanaG> Lame: desktop-effects demands to run restricted-manager; thus, I can't use that panel to enable it.  I'm using NVIDIA installer, not the packaged drivers.
[10:19] <Dannilion> just like me to delete files I shouldn't.
[10:20] <pwnguin> DanaG: is there a difference between nvidia's current driver and ubuntu's
[10:20] <pwnguin> ?
[10:21] <DanaG> Oh yeah, the current is some 100.something, I think.
[10:22] <DanaG> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/122348
[10:22] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 122348 in Ubuntu "New nVidia drivers 100.14 fix problems with ACPI / Suspend" [Undecided,New]
[10:22] <pwnguin> oh shit?
[10:23] <pwnguin> hmm
[10:23] <DanaG> Actually, for me, Gutsy broke suspend entirely -- even without X.
[10:23] <DanaG> It used to work perfectly for me in Feisty.
[10:23] <pwnguin> well
[10:23] <pwnguin> nvidia may be loaded
[10:24] <pwnguin> the kernel module
[10:24] <DanaG> But: the new NVIDIA does seem to fix hotkey-display-switching in Xorg -- with one exception: it doesn't automatically change resolution.
[10:24] <pwnguin> any other breakages?
[10:25] <pwnguin> hmm. that bug doesn't appear to have a package attached to it
[10:27] <DanaG> Argh, I dislike the new Appearance panel.
[10:27] <DanaG> Font changes don't apply.
[10:29] <bipolar> yay for nspluginviewer! :D
[10:29] <bipolar> I was just about to go back to ubuntu 32bit :)
[10:31] <pwnguin> it doesnt look that much different than regular vista
[10:31] <DanaG> It's actually an XP theme.
[10:32] <DanaG> It's the only theme I've ever consistently kept applied when in Windows.
[10:32] <DanaG> In Ubuntu, I use human-ubuntulooks, but I still wish there were another nice theme like that one.
[10:32] <pwnguin> looked at art.gnome much/
[10:32] <pwnguin> ?
[10:35] <KjetilK__> I'm wondering about the status of the iwlwifi driver in gutsy
[10:35] <KjetilK__>  If I do a file search for it it seems only the microcode is in
[10:35] <KjetilK__> http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?word=iwlwifi&searchmode=searchword&case=insensitive&version=gutsy&arch=i386
[10:35] <Arwen> being now on Tribe 2, does Gusty work to any degree of usability? and yes, I know it's pre-alpha
[10:36] <KjetilK__> in feisty, there are more results
[10:36] <Arwen> oh? missing packages?
[10:36] <pwnguin> missing firmwares
[10:37] <jussi01> Arwen: its ok.. Ive used it a bit...
[10:37] <pwnguin> but
[10:37] <DanaG> The firmware is there; the driver is missing.
[10:37] <bipolar> Arwen: some issues with packages. nothing to serious
[10:37] <KjetilK__> yeah, it looks like the driver is missing
[10:37] <bipolar> Arwen: I just installed it on my new laptop
[10:37] <pwnguin> a lot of what's missing is -server
[10:37] <pwnguin> -server bigiron and -lowlatency
[10:38] <bipolar> Arwen: I had to patch vmware player to build with 2.6.22
[10:38] <Arwen> ah, I only wonder about fglrx, it only officially supports up to 2.6.20
[10:38] <bipolar> the vmware ubuntu packages are broken, so I installed from tgz
[10:38] <pwnguin> the thing is, my wifi chipset is 3945
[10:38] <pwnguin> and it works
[10:39] <bipolar> Arwen: not sure about fglrx. nvidia here, which works fine
[10:39] <Arwen> ye, I don't use fglrx anyway
[10:39] <bipolar> I was sure to get an nvidia card after the hassles the ati card in my 'old' laptop gave me
[10:41] <pwnguin> Arwen: i think perhaps theres been some changes to that driver
[10:41] <Arwen> hmm
[10:41] <pwnguin> Arwen: i remember reading that they dropped the regulatory daemon
[10:41] <Arwen> heh, no more atieventsd? yay
[10:42] <bipolar> it's pretty cool to have wine running on a 64bit os :)
[10:42] <pwnguin> not ati
[10:42] <pwnguin> 3945
[10:42] <Arwen> oh, lol
[10:42] <pwnguin> oh, sorry
[10:42] <pwnguin> wrong person
[10:42] <pwnguin> KjetilK__: i think some changes to that driver's structure have been made
[10:44] <KjetilK__> pwnguin: so, I shouldn't expect to find files named like the driver now?
[10:44] <pwnguin> KjetilK__: is the device working?
[10:44] <KjetilK__> pwnguin: well, I have a severe problem with the wireless kill switch
[10:45] <KjetilK__> so, I can't actually find out...
[10:45] <pwnguin> oh?
[10:45] <pwnguin> i have a minor one
[10:45] <KjetilK__> but since 2.6.22 has some new RFKILL stuff, I figured I'll try to compile it on my otherwise feisty system
[10:46] <KjetilK__> pwnguin: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2908414
[10:46] <pwnguin> with the current system, i have to toggle the kill switch to get wireless working
[10:47] <pwnguin> and network manager still sucks
[10:47] <KjetilK__> hmmm
[10:47] <KjetilK__> mine is a hardware kill switch, not supported by acerhk, not exposed to BIOS....
[10:47] <pwnguin> i just flip it off and on again, connections happen. its a physical switch but im not sure how it works internally
[10:48] <KjetilK__> only successes reported are those who first install windows, toggle the switch and then boot to LInux
[10:48] <KjetilK__> hehe, tried that many times, before even beginning to investigate :-)
[10:50] <pwnguin> hmm. i think my kernels' no good
[10:50] <pwnguin> keyboard broke
[10:51] <pwnguin> and bash or something seems to have died
[10:51] <KjetilK__> hmmm, it looks like there is a driver there...: http://intellinuxwireless.org/?p=iwlwifi&n=HOWTO-iwlwifi
[10:51] <pwnguin> what's the difference between iwlwifi and ipw4945?
[10:52] <pwnguin> ah. its the one that removes the regulatory daemon
[10:53] <KjetilK__> yup
[10:54] <KjetilK__> since Olen in the forums (who turned out to be an acquitance of mine) got a bit further, I figured it might a good thing to try
[10:57] <pwnguin> fun
[10:58] <pwnguin> dasher isn't that great for terminal access =/
[10:58] <KjetilK__> hehe
[11:03] <pwnguin> ok, something seriously exploded
[11:03] <pwnguin> i'd like to make a copy of kern.log or something
[11:26] <sayers> How do I get this mp3 to work ... grr
[11:27] <sayers> Ah got it. That was a lot harder than usual.
[11:42] <sayers> When I get opted to report a problem I should right?
[11:43] <gnomefreak> sayers: yes
[11:44] <sayers> looks like I need an account. Anyway that bug was self-induced
[11:50] <Pici> Anyone with xgl+fglrx successfully using compiz-fusion?
[11:57] <Pici> Anyone with xgl-fglrx unsuccessfully using compiz-fusion?
[12:00] <gnomefreak> Pici: its stilla  bit broken
[12:01] <Pici> gnomefreak: I know :/
[12:01] <gnomefreak> more than likely everyone is in same state you are
[12:03] <Pici> Well, at least I'm not alone.
[12:29] <omha> hey