[00:47] <LightMan777> Hello!!!
[00:47] <LightMan777> anyone here?
[00:48] <LightMan777> i have some questions
[00:48] <LightMan777> ...
[00:49] <kc2bez> !ask | LightMan777
[00:51] <JamesJr1> Okay I'm back
[00:51] <JamesJr1> It didn't fix the problem.
[00:52] <JamesJr1> I'm on the 20.04 Libe USB now.
[00:52] <JamesJr1> Live*
[00:56] <JamesJr1> Boost.Python error in job "unpackfs". Command 'mount' returned non-zero exit status 32.
[00:56] <kc2bez> JamesJr1: can we get a paste of your log please?
[00:56] <JamesJr1> Sure
[00:56] <JamesJr1> Where is it located at?
[00:56] <JamesJr1> I forgot
[00:57] <kc2bez> ~/.cache/calamares/
[00:59] <JamesJr1> that folder doesn't exist for some reason
[01:04] <kc2bez> What file system format is your USB?
[01:04] <JamesJr1> ntfs
[01:04] <JamesJr1> I think
[01:04] <JamesJr1> Most likely yeah
[01:06] <kc2bez> fat32 will likely fix the issues.
[01:06] <JamesJr1> So your saying I should just remake the usb rn?
[01:06] <JamesJr1> I can do that pretty quick.
[01:06] <JamesJr1> I was using unetbootin to make it tho
[01:06] <kc2bez> try fat32
[01:07] <JamesJr1> And thanks
[01:07] <kc2bez> np.
[01:07] <JamesJr1> I'll be back if it didn't help :)
[01:07] <kc2bez> ok
[01:21] <LightMan777> !ask how can i make more fast lubuntu ?
[01:23] <LightMan777> how can i make more faster lubuntu?
[01:25] <guiverc> LightMan777, it'll depend on your box, use you make of the system... For some boxes using a swapfile/swap-partition improves speed (where RAM is less than demands for it, eg. 4GB boxes)
[01:25] <guiverc> you also didn't provide your release; 18.04 LTS for example defaults to swap created automatically I believe
[01:26] <LightMan777> i have 1gb of ram and i have a swap partition (not a file) of 2gb
[01:26] <LightMan777> but i thought is not enough for make it faster
[01:27] <guiverc> what release of Lubuntu?  1GB is very low, and won't be enough for many web sites (ie. they'll always be slow because they expect 4GB of ram)
[01:28] <LightMan777> i have lubuntu 20.04 with swap, preload, tlp
[01:28] <LightMan777> yes, it doesn't enough
[01:28] <LightMan777> for webs like facebook, youtube, instagram, etc
[01:29] <guiverc> you need to increase RAM, I've not used 1GB on any amd64 Lubuntu system, only x86/i386
[01:30] <LightMan777> no have any config for the system?
[01:31] <guiverc> I suspect your system is slow because of lack of RAM, I'm booting an old thinkpad with 1.5GB of ram to see what swap space I created on that.
[01:31] <LightMan777> i have 2gb of swap space on a partition maked
[01:31] <LightMan777> it help
[01:31] <LightMan777> very much
[01:32] <LightMan777> but the browsers is my problem
[01:32] <guiverc> I created 6GB of swap for my 18.04 system with 1.5GB of dRAM
[01:33] <guiverc> I believe lack of RAM is your issue, small swap second (4GB can by utilized by some web pages; you only have 3GB with swap and some of that will be used by other programs, OS and your desktop)
[01:34] <LightMan777> so i need to make a bigger partition for swap?
[01:34] <LightMan777> like 4gb or 6gb like you?
[01:34] <LightMan777> that gonna make more better my system?
[01:34] <guiverc> Your fix is getting more RAM, increasing swap will speed it up I believe, but not as much as more RAM would
[01:35] <LightMan777> so i can increase my ram with a swapfile?
[01:35] <LightMan777> for make mor swap sapce?
[01:35] <LightMan777> more*
[01:36]  * guiverc is giving my opinion only, I'm limited by what I'm told & my own understanding of your issue
[01:36] <guiverc> yes you can use swap partition & swap file at the same time.
[01:37] <guiverc> I'll provide https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-add-swap-space-on-ubuntu-20-04 for details if helpful
[01:37] <LightMan777> nice so im gonna make a swapfile then
[01:37] <LightMan777> for test
[01:37] <LightMan777> a friend recommended me pale moon browser
[01:37] <LightMan777> for solve the problem
[01:38] <guiverc> don't forget, your OS will use a significant portion of your 1GB of ram, you've not got much at all for the browser to operate it... lack of ram is your problem in my opinion, swap will improve but not fix issue as I see it
[01:39] <LightMan777> oooh ok, well how a cant get more ram for the device im gonna test with the swap space
[01:40] <guiverc> lynx & w3m are better browsers when RAM is really tight... esp. if all you want is to read the detail (not look at pictures; operate the javascript etc of the page)
[01:40] <Palekko-dari-Mks> my computer use 1,8gb ram how much partition for swap must be used ?
[01:42] <LightMan777> well i just wanna help this device to be used for everyones
[01:42] <guiverc> Palekko-dari-Mks, it'll depend on use case, example I gave before of my 18.04 system with 1.5GB of RAM is I created 6GB swap; programs to be used will influence, also if you hibernate and things too, but mostly programs/apps you'll use
[01:43] <guiverc> LightMan777, amd64/64-bit has more overhead than x86/32-bit; difference isn't great, but using 64-bit does require more ram (non-local memory addresses are double the size)
[01:44] <guiverc> sorry, 32bit with PAE does sort of mute my last thought sorry, difference is so minimal as to be...
[01:44] <Palekko-dari-Mks> oh i see,now i used 4GB for swap cause my program standard,is it enough for swap ?
[01:45] <LightMan777> i understand, but i don't wanna mount again the system
[01:47] <guiverc> Palekko-dari-Mks, if you're talking swapfile, I'd just use it and see... swapfiles are easy to re-create (ie. changing size), and if it was swap partition, you can add a small swap file later if necessary (it'll use both, slight overhead I suspect using both, but its easy)
[01:53] <Palekko-dari-Mks> thank you for the explanation, for the time being I use 4GB swap because I only use the standard program and penetration of the network, my computer specifications are cpu intel celeron 1.5GHZ and 2GB ram
[01:56] <Palekko-dari-Mks> so while I use lubuntu, I think lubuntu is lighter for my computer specs than when I use linux
[01:57] <Palekko-dari-Mks> used kali linux i mean
[02:03] <LightMan777> i thought lubuntu is a great os
[02:03] <LightMan777> and lighter
[02:06] <Palekko-dari-Mks> in indonesia,lubuntu no familiar i think :)
[02:12] <JamesJr1> Hey, The install for lubuntu completed, now I have another problem. I get a black screen after the lubuntu logo when I boot from my HDD.
[02:13] <JamesJr1> On the live usb again
[02:13] <JamesJr1> I'm using a Ryzen 3 3200G CPU with Radeon Vega 8 graphics.
[02:24] <Palekko-dari-Mks> try to edit grub in file system
[02:30] <LightMan777> what do you think about sparkylinux LXQT?
[03:11] <guiverc> LightMan777, asking about other non-Lubuntu doesn't belong here, this is Lubuntu support (#lubuntu-offtopic would likely apply for your last question)
[04:28] <LightMan777> can i make a boot usb with a sdcard and an adapter?
[05:04] <me-1> hi...what is the latest Lubuntu 32 bit version
[06:48] <guiverc> belated, but Lubuntu 18.04 LTS is the last supported x86/32-bit
[11:44] <strobe2020> i'm trying to troubleshoot a loss of internet connection after an system update for 19.04. my friend is using an older netgear wna1100 wireless adapter, running the latest kernel for 19.04. how do i know if the adapter is still supported? i think the kernel module needed is ath9k_htc
[11:45] <strobe2020> i'm planning on updating my friend to 20.04 lts soon, so maybe there's more older hardware support in that version, even if it's "newer"
[11:46] <diogenes_> strobe2020, newer often remove support for really old hardware but what i'd do, i'd run a live session off a USB drive, pug in the wireless adaptor and see it it's detected and works.
[11:47] <strobe2020> diogenes_, yeah, i was planning on doing that, but i was hoping to maybe troubleshoot over the phone, to avoid needing to do that
[11:48] <strobe2020> diogenes_, do you happen to know if lts kernel generally supports older hardware?
[11:48] <diogenes_> strobe2020, i'm not aware of what they include and what they exclude from the kernel.
[11:49] <oerheks> 19.10 is EOL, dead
[11:50] <strobe2020> diogenes_, can you recommend an inexpensive wireless usb adapter that will work with 20.04?
[11:50] <strobe2020> we might need to get one today
[11:51] <diogenes_> strobe2020, https://www.wirelesshack.org/top-linux-compatible-usb-wireless-adapters.html
[11:51] <strobe2020> i found a tenda w311m lying around i could try
[11:51] <strobe2020> but i think that's a bit old too
[11:52] <strobe2020> diogenes_, ok thanks for the link
[11:52] <diogenes_> if i was to buy and adaptor i'd get at least a 1 year old TP-Link.
[11:59] <strobe2020> diogenes_, ok i'll look into that. btw, as a short term fix, how can i roll back to the previous kernel?
[12:00] <diogenes_> strobe2020, keep "shift" pressed down when PC boots up and choose advanced, there you gonna have older kernels to select from.
[12:00] <strobe2020> ok thx
[12:00] <diogenes_> you're welcome.
[12:45] <ville_> lkjlljl'
[12:45] <ville_> lllll
[12:45] <ville_> lllll
[12:45] <ville_> llll
[12:45] <ville_> lll
[12:45] <ville_> l
[12:45] <ville_> l
[12:45] <ville_> l
[12:45] <ville_> l
[12:45] <ville_> l
[13:56] <JamesJr1> Hey guys, I finally got lubuntu working.
[13:59] <kc2bez> That is great JamesJr1 !
[14:01] <JamesJr1> Wow it runs SUPER fast on my PC.
[14:01] <JamesJr1> I'm using a Ryzen 3 3200G with Radeon Vega 8 graphics.
[14:02] <JamesJr1> And lubuntu
[14:02] <JamesJr1> I like how fast it does stuff.
[14:02] <kc2bez> Sounds like a good combo.
[14:18] <strobe2020> diogenes_, for what it's worth, 5.3.0-64-generic was causing the connection issue, booting into 5.3.0-62-generic solved the problem
[14:19] <strobe2020> this is for 19.10 eoan
[14:19] <diogenes_> strobe2020, ok good to know.
[14:22] <strobe2020> i just don't know if it's because support was dropped for that older wifi adapter or some other kind of bug
[14:28] <strobe2020> diogenes_, ok, so now i have a new question. i need to tweak /etc/default/grub to boot the "good" kernel, but it's buried in the "advanced" submenu, so how does that work with the numerical scheme of grub_default?
[14:29] <diogenes_> strobe2020, run this: cat /boot/grub/grub.cfg | nc termbin.com 9999
[14:29] <diogenes_> share the url.
[14:33] <strobe2020> diogenes_, zygu
[14:34] <diogenes_> strobe2020, cat /etc/grub.d/40_custom | nc termbin.com 9999
[14:35] <JamesJr1> Hey guys, is there a Radeon Vega 8 driver for lubuntu?
[14:35] <JamesJr1> Or does the default setting work fine for me.
[14:36] <strobe2020> diogenes_, umfp
[14:36] <diogenes_> strobe2020, sudo nano /etc/grub.d/40_custom
[14:37] <diogenes_> and it should look like this: https://dpaste.com/6PZX46MLT
[14:37] <diogenes_> after that run: sudo update-grub
[14:37] <diogenes_> and you gonna have this new menu entry in grub: Ubuntu, with Linux 5.3.0-62-generic
[14:38] <diogenes_> but that's not all, if you want it to boot automatically then you have to do this:
[14:38] <diogenes_> sudo nano /etc/default/grub and add the following:
[14:39] <diogenes_> GRUB_DEFAULT=(number of the entry, 0 is the first entry so it might be 3)
[14:39] <diogenes_> after that run: sudo update-grub
[14:40] <strobe2020> diogenes_, great...thanks so much for your help. you saved me a trip across town
[14:41] <diogenes_> you're welcome.
 strobe2020: you should update to 20.04 19.10 is EOL.
[17:15] <strobe2020> can i do do-release-upgrade from 19.10 to 20.04 or is a fresh install necessary?
[17:16] <oerheks> you should see it, when you try to update.
[21:57] <LightMan777> Hello
[21:57] <LightMan777> !ask can i revive an android phone with linux?
[21:58] <LightMan777> Can i revive an android phone with linux?
[21:58] <LightMan777> using lubuntu
[22:00] <kc2bez> LightMan777: it is not possible to install Lubuntu on an Android phone.
[22:01] <LightMan777> sorry, i'm talking about use lubuntu for revive an android phone with the terminal or something
[22:21] <LightMan777> well i thought there is something wrong
[22:21] <LightMan777> but idk
[22:24] <LightMan777> try it


[02:02] <slangasek> debfx: hi, are there any known problems with the libsdl1.2 package in Debian git?  I'd like to pull in multiarch support this week so I can have ia32-libs over and done with in Ubuntu before the new year, and merging from git seems the easiest way to do that
[06:12] <micahg> jamespage: mind if I merge maven-repo-helper?
[08:51] <jamespage> micahg: sure - no problem
[14:08] <fbond> Hi. This is not a regression, but I believe an urgent SRU for Lucid would be appropriate. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-tz/+bug/885163
[14:10] <fbond> The recent timezone change has the potential to cause significant impact on production deployments.
[14:11] <fbond> In particular, any Django site using the django timezones app will experience issues.
[15:40] <dr3mro> hello , I am trying to build a package in ppa for ubuntu and i fail but it builds locally with no problem any help https://launchpadlibrarian.net/88777465/buildlog_ubuntu-oneiric-i386.imgizor_0.5~ppa2-0~8~oneiric1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
 here is my source code     bzr branch lp:imgizor
[15:43] <Laney> "checking for intltool >= 0.35.0... ./configure: line 12212: intltool-update: command not found"
[15:44] <dr3mro> Laney, are you talking to me
[15:44] <Laney> probably missing a build-depends on intltool
[15:44] <Laney> yep
[15:44] <dr3mro> so i have to add intltool as build dep
[15:46] <Laney> if you build in a minimal environment on your machine (e.g. with pbuilder) then you should see the same error too
[15:55] <dr3mro> Laney, i added intltool as build deps and retrying i wish it works
[15:56] <Laney> if you build locally you can check there aren't any others missing too
[15:58] <dr3mro> Laney, Ok i will report if it works
[16:02] <dr3mro> Laney,  ok i have installed pbuilder but i don't know how to test builds with it
[16:04] <Laney> easiest way is to install ubuntu-dev-tools, do pbuilder-dist <your-release> create and then pbuilder-dist <your-release> build <your_package.dsc>
[16:32] <dr3mro> hello , can any one tell me if i have created a tarball of a source code and i need to put specific files like glade files to be installed in a specified path how to do it in tarball ???
[18:20] <kees> jcastro: did you get one of those hotswap raid desktop array things a while back? what did you get and did you like it?
[20:15] <lamont> how in the *)&&%&%(*)^)& to I get firefox to QUIT GOING FULL SCREEN EVERY TIME IT GETS DEICONIFIED?
[20:19] <Ampelbein> lamont: sudo apt-get install chromium-browser? ;-)
[20:24] <lamont> Ampelbein: not acceptable
[20:24] <chrisccoulson> lamont, pick a different window manager
[20:24] <lamont> ditto
[20:24] <lamont> chrisccoulson: is it the window manager doing it then?
[20:26] <chrisccoulson> lamont, how is the window being deiconified?
[20:26] <lamont> either alt-tab, or clicking on the icon in the left-bar
[20:27] <chrisccoulson> lamont, yeah, it's not likely to be firefox doing that then
[20:27] <lamont> cool.  I'll file the bug against unity then
[20:28] <chrisccoulson> Ampelbein, chromium is ok, as long as you don't care about the web being open, and don't care about your privacy ;)
[20:29] <chrisccoulson> and as long as you don't care that it's virtually unmaintained in ubuntu now
[20:30] <Ampelbein> chrisccoulson: Yeah, it's a shame there's not a single good browser available that is a) fast b) secure and open c) well maintained.
[20:30] <Ampelbein> I want galeon back
[20:30] <chrisccoulson> lol
[20:31] <chrisccoulson> well maintained?
[20:31] <maswan> It was resonably well maintained before the galeon2 fiasco, IIRC
[20:31] <Ampelbein> It was until 2009.
[20:38] <ScottK> chrisccoulson: I thought all the monitoring stuff was just in Chrome, not Chromium?
[20:41] <chrisccoulson> ScottK, sign in to your google account, open wireshark and then type a URL in the addressbar ;)
[20:42] <chrisccoulson> it sends all of your keypresses, along with your login cookie (for the search suggestions, which is exactly why firefox has a separate search and URL bar)
[20:46] <ScottK> Kind of has to do that to make the immediate search thing work.
[20:47] <Ampelbein> And you can disable it.
[20:47] <Ampelbein> (The Instant search is disabled by default)
[20:48] <chrisccoulson> disabled by default? the search suggestions when typing in the addressbar are enabled by default
[20:48] <Ampelbein> chrisccoulson: There are two services, instant search and adress bar predictions.
[20:48] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i know :)
[20:49] <Ampelbein> only the latter is enabled by default
[20:49] <chrisccoulson> and that's the one i'm talking about
[20:49] <Ampelbein> Well, "preferences -> under the hood -> "Use a prediction service to help complete searches and URLs typed in the address bar" isn't too hard to find and disable.
[20:50] <Ampelbein> Then only searches that you actively start by pressing enter are stored.
[20:50] <chrisccoulson> then it's useless
[20:50] <chrisccoulson> what i want is for search prediction to work, but without it sending the URL's i type in there to google
[20:51] <chrisccoulson> but that isn't possible with the design of the combined URL / search box
[21:53] <jtaylor> doko_: I would recommend not letting python provide argparse in debian, as 2.6 is still supported in debian the more correct solution is to revert the argparse change
[21:53] <jtaylor> the maintainer mailed me he is open to doing that next week


[08:46] <jsgotangco> @schedule Manila
[08:46] <ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Manila: 03 Apr 19:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 23:00: Kernel Team | 04 Apr 02:00: Mozilla Team | 04 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu | 06 Apr 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 Apr 04:00: Technical Board
[08:50] <Mithrandir> peperoni: please turn off public away.
[08:50] <jsgotangco> peperoni: plesae turn it off
[08:58] <SWAT> @schedule amsterdam
[08:59] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 03 Apr 13:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 17:00: Kernel Team | 03 Apr 20:00: Mozilla Team | 04 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 05 Apr 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Apr 22:00: Technical Board
[11:17] <Seveas> @schedule amsterdam
[11:17] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 03 Apr 13:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 17:00: Kernel Team | 03 Apr 20:00: Mozilla Team | 04 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 05 Apr 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Apr 22:00: Technical Board
[11:17] <Seveas> @schedule
[11:17] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 03 Apr 11:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 15:00: Kernel Team | 03 Apr 18:00: Mozilla Team | 04 Apr 12:00: Edubuntu | 05 Apr 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Apr 20:00: Technical Board
[11:39] <AndrewB> @schedule London
[11:39] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 03 Apr 12:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 16:00: Kernel Team | 03 Apr 19:00: Mozilla Team | 04 Apr 13:00: Edubuntu | 05 Apr 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Apr 21:00: Technical Board
[11:54] <iGama> Hy
[12:37] <loudmouthman> @schedule London
[12:37] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 03 Apr 12:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 16:00: Kernel Team | 03 Apr 19:00: Mozilla Team | 04 Apr 13:00: Edubuntu | 05 Apr 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Apr 21:00: Technical Board
[12:46] <xerxas> Hi all
[12:47] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[12:47] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 03 Apr 21:00: Community Council | 04 Apr 01:00: Kernel Team | 04 Apr 04:00: Mozilla Team | 04 Apr 22:00: Edubuntu | 06 Apr 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 Apr 06:00: Technical Board
[12:48] <xerxas> @schedule paris
[12:48] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 03 Apr 13:00: Community Council | 03 Apr 17:00: Kernel Team | 03 Apr 20:00: Mozilla Team | 04 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 05 Apr 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Apr 22:00: Technical Board
[12:49] <iGama> Hy
[12:54] <war_> hello
[12:58] <AndrewB> Hey all.
[12:58] <Hobbsee> hi elmo
[12:58] <elmo> hi
[12:59] <iGama> xerxas,
[12:59] <iGama> good luck :)
[12:59] <lotusleaf> @now
[12:59] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 03 2007, 10:59:21 - Current meeting: Community Council
[12:59] <cjwatson> morning
[12:59] <xerxas> iGama:  thanks :)
[12:59] <iGama> im also a candidate
[12:59] <xerxas> the thing is I'm supposed to go eat :)
[12:59] <iGama> :)
[12:59] <iGama> lol
[12:59] <xerxas> iGama: good luck to you then :)
[12:59] <AndrewB> hey LoudMouthMan
[12:59] <LoudMouthMan> Hello
[12:59] <iGama> im hungry also :S
[01:00] <xerxas> cjwatson: so vote for us :)
[01:00] <elmo> I've SMSed sabdfl
[01:00] <Seveas> cjwatson, I heard rumours of LP voting not being able to do what sabdfl wants
[01:00] <AlexC> AndrewB is so helpful
[01:00] <xerxas> can I go eat ?
[01:01] <xerxas> can you guys discuss your status before me ?
[01:01] <Seveas> xerxas, sure
[01:01] <xerxas> ok
[01:01] <xerxas> I'll be back in half an hour probably
[01:01] <xerxas> thanks
[01:01] <Seveas> xerxas, please poke me in pm when you're back
[01:01] <SWAT> xerxas, enjoy your food ;)
[01:01] <xerxas> seves: np
[01:01] <iGama> xerxas, get me some :p
[01:01] <xerxas> swat thanks :)
[01:01] <xerxas> iGama:  np :)
[01:02] <iGama> a cookie is ok for me :)
[01:02] <biberao> hiya
[01:02] <AndrewB> hey biberao
[01:02] <iGama> Good luck to all Ubuntu Member Candidates :)
[01:03] <iGama> And locoteams :)
[01:03] <jsgotangco> good luck! we'll just have to wait for the key people to arrive
[01:03] <elmo> sabdfl sends his apologies, but he has no intarweb so he can't make it
[01:04] <Seveas> elmo, and mako? He said this time was OK for him
[01:04] <Hobbsee> bah.  surely he can find some other medium which will let him attend.
[01:04] <Seveas> Hobbsee, ip-over-brainwaves is not implemented yet :)
[01:04] <Hobbsee> Seveas: THEN GET CODING.  kthnksbye!
[01:04] <SWAT> I thought the new Nokia N800 or something had a terminal + ssh built in (irrsi + screen on a server somewhere)
[01:04] <Seveas> Hobbsee, specs for brainwaves are proprietary :p
[01:05] <Hobbsee> Seveas: reverse engineer them then.
[01:05] <spyro_boy> hah
[01:05] <YokoZar> Hobbsee: How about communing via smoke signals?
[01:05] <Hobbsee> YokoZar: if you like...go ahead
[01:05] <jsgotangco> SWAT: last time I saw sabdfl, he was still using a Treo650
[01:05] <elmo> sorry phone, bbias
[01:05] <jsgotangco> :)
[01:06] <iGama> i have to meet sabdfl one day :)
[01:06] <AlexC> so very helpful
[01:06] <Seveas> iGama, sevilla, espaa, 5-11 may. Good opportunity :)
[01:06] <SWAT> iGama, it's on my big 'todo' list
[01:06] <iGama> not good time for me :s
[01:06] <iGama> Seveas, im going to start organizing a Linux Conference in Portugal
[01:07] <elmo> Seveas: I haven't heard from him sorry - I can ring him, if you like
[01:07] <iGama> and maybe invite the Ubuntu Community
[01:07] <Seveas> elmo, please do so, otherwise we have no quorum
[01:07] <SWAT> jsgotangco, still no terminal+ssh for that thing yet? (looks nice though)
[01:08] <iGama> licio,  *
[01:08] <iGama> :)
[01:08] <Karirresmo> hello
[01:08] <iGama> tudo bem licio  ?
[01:11] <elmo> mako's on his way
[01:11] <Seveas> great
[01:12] <Constantino> iGama: []
[01:12] <iGama> []
[01:12] <Karirresmo> iGama fofa *
[01:13] <Kmos> iGama: good luck
[01:13] <SWAT> elmo, do you have an eta? (so I know if I can leave my desk without missing anything)
[01:13] <Kmos> +1 for you :)
[01:13] <iGama> ;)
[01:13] <iGama> thanks ppl , but still have to wait :)
[01:13] <MikeB-> question before the meeting, what is the best way to request a change in launchpad?
[01:14] <Seveas> MikeB-, file a bug
[01:14] <AndrewB> I would assume the best way is file a bug or #launchpad
[01:14] <MikeB-> I was wondering if forums usernames could be added to peoples Launchpad profiles
[01:14] <MikeB-> Seveas: cool did that:)
[01:16] <Seveas> mako! :)
[01:16] <jsgotangco> cheers mako
[01:16] <mako> apologies for being late, i left my phone vibrate and missed my alarm
[01:16] <mako> elmo: thanks for the call
[01:16] <Seveas> elmo, cjwatson: prod, we can start
[01:16] <SWAT> mako, you're now, that's what counts :)
[01:16] <Seveas> mjg59, ping, you're first on the agenda
[01:16] <mjg59> Hi
[01:16] <mjg59> Ok. Want me to do a brief introduction?
[01:18] <Seveas> I'm wondering why you wanted to write this up *now*, has there been a particular incident?
[01:18] <biberao> back
[01:18] <mjg59> Seveas: There has, but I don't think the specifics of a particular incident are especially relevant right now
[01:18] <Seveas> ok
[01:18] <mjg59> In the absence of good guidelines, it's harder to judge people's behaviour
[01:19] <mjg59> Effectively, the problem that I think needs dealing with is that it's entirely unclear what should happen if somebody believes that the CoC has been violated
[01:20] <mako> mjg59: so i've appreciated your recent writing on coc related issues
[01:21] <mjg59> So if a complaint is made, there's the potential for argument over whether or not it was a violation to take place in the same forum as the original complaint
[01:21] <mako> and i think that a policy for what should happen would be a good idea
[01:21] <mjg59> Which can then give the impression that the complaint isn't taken seriously, and could exacerbate any original offence
[01:21] <cjwatson> various people made comments on your wiki page; I liked the note explicitly saying that discussions of CoC violations shouldn't happen in the same forum
[01:22] <Seveas> should these happen in public at all?
[01:22] <cjwatson> they do tend to escalate rather
[01:22] <mako> Seveas: ideally, i think so
[01:22] <cjwatson> there needs to be opportunity for right-of-reply and feedback
[01:23] <cjwatson> but blogwars or whatever don't really help
[01:23] <mjg59> From my point of view, the risk of making the original complaint via some back-channel is that there's no awareness amongst other members of the list/forum/channel/whatever that there's an issue until it's already been dealt with
[01:23] <mako> mjg59: so my major thought, which isn't really a reply on its own, was that that i was curious about how the forums folks handle this
[01:23] <mako> mjg59: and i have a rough idea of how it happens
[01:24] <cjwatson> mjg59: complaint via back-channel plus note on list saying that it's been escalated
[01:24] <mako> because they have this problem probably several times a ewek
[01:24] <MikeB-> we have an infraction system
[01:24] <jsgotangco> part of the forum engine of sorts?
[01:25] <dinda> but mailing list and Loco Teams and IRC don't have any back channels as of yet
[01:25] <MikeB-> if a violation of the CoC or forums CoC happen we issue an infraction and send a PM
[01:25] <mc44> mako, as does irc
[01:25] <mjg59> I certainly agree that any further conversation of the issue shouldn't take place in the same forum, but I'm less sold on the idea that the initial complaint shouldn't be
[01:25] <mako> mjg59: i think i agree
[01:26] <Seveas> (mc44, the irc complaint/escalation system is not quite finalized/written down yet, pending discussions at UDS Seville)
[01:26] <MikeB-> we give the person a chance to explain.
[01:26] <mjg59> I think it ought to be possible for someone to express unhappiness and the original poster to apologise without actually invoking any sort of formal procedure
[01:26] <mako> mjg59: i think that public discussion about the cc and sugestoins that certain behavior might be unacceptable help communicate social norms to the larger community
[01:27] <mako> coc even
[01:27] <mjg59> Right, that was my point of view
[01:27] <cjwatson> mjg59: mm
[01:28] <cjwatson> also reducing the need for escalation is a good thing
[01:30] <MikeB-> an infraction system of sorts could be added to launchpad, everyone should be allowed one  bad judgement call, it is the repeat offenders yo need to worry about. someway to track them would help
[01:30] <cjwatson> I don't think we can assume that people on the mailing lists or IRC have launchpad accounts
[01:30] <cjwatson> or even should assume
[01:30] <Seveas> we should not
[01:31] <cjwatson> I think we probably have enough social memory for this kind of thing though - there's less volume here than on the forums
[01:31] <MikeB-> cjwatson: good point
[01:32] <mjg59> My aim with the draft I wrote was to produce a process that's fairly light-weight but achieves three goals: (1) it's possible to short-circuit the entire thing by allowing the original poster to apologise, (2) ensuring that further discussion of the issue doesn't occur where it's likely to cause further offence and (3) ensures that contentious issues can still be handled by an uninvolved set of people (ie, the CC)
[01:32] <cjwatson> I agree that people should be allowed mistake(s) before being banned, though not before being reprimanded
[01:33] <cjwatson> mjg59: I think folding in the comments on that draft to make things generally more explicit would be good, but I like the general idea
[01:34] <mjg59> Ok. There seems to be general approval for something like this - what's the best way to go from here?
[01:34] <mako> so.. my only concern is with calling it enforcement
[01:34] <Daviey> I whole heatedly disagree with the principle of people being reprimanded, that IMHO is not the intention of either the CoC or Ubuntu itself.  It's a _want_ to adhere - not forced to
[01:35] <cjwatson> mako: mjg59's draft doesn't
[01:35] <mako> because we're going to have to make the same judgement call to "enforce" this as we will to "enforce" the cc
[01:35] <mako> but as a guideline, i think it' sgood
[01:35] <mako> cjwatson: yes, that' sgood
[01:36] <cjwatson> Daviey: sadly, unless there's some way to tell people they were wrong, the CoC will deteriorate into meaninglessness
[01:36] <mjg59> Daviey: If people don't want to adhere to the CoC, then they're not welcome in the Ubuntu community
[01:36] <cjwatson> Daviey: and people who feel aggrieved by others not adhering to it want to know that their concerns are valid
[01:36] <mako> Daviey: the *only* thing we require of all members or ubunteros is that they aggree to to the CoC
[01:37] <Daviey> mjg59, i don't know where that conclusion has been made.  The CoC is something for people to thing hard about, and sign if the wish.  (I have).
[01:37] <cjwatson> Daviey: it was right at the foundation of Ubuntu
[01:37] <mako> Daviey: it was one of the first two or three documents we wrote for the website
[01:37] <mjg59> Daviey: The aim of the CoC was to ensure that there was a common base-line of accepted behaviour for the entire community
[01:38] <cjwatson> the CoC is not some kind of optional extension
[01:38] <dinda> My comments were added b/c some folks who originate the issue, i.e. invoke the COC, then walk away but then the issue escalates in their absence, so there needs to be responsibility on both sides
[01:38] <cjwatson> "you can behave nicely ... if you want"
[01:38] <SWAT> the coc is like a contract only less legal (there is a reason why you must sign it with your own private gpg key). Why shouldn't someone be held responsible for their actions? You can ofcourse first PM the person in question to tell them to cool off and if that doesn't works, complain.
[01:38] <Daviey> I am a big pro of the principle of the CoC - it's something that people make a commitment that they want to follow.  It is not rules.  Unless i have grossly misunderstood
[01:39] <mc44> Daviey, even if you havent signed it, if you want to participate in ubuntu community forums such as mailing lists, you are expected to abide by it
[01:39] <mako> Daviey: i suppose you don't have to agree to it, but if you act in a way that users, and leadership through consulation, feels runs rounter to the CoC, you'll be asked to leave
[01:39] <mako> Daviey: it's not meant to be a stick, if that's what you mean.. and they're inentionally a little vague
[01:39] <Daviey> (not that it matters, but i have signed it)
[01:39] <LoudMouthMan> But was its purpose to enable people to set guidelines of expectations on others or themselves ?  Im worried that enabling it to be used to judge others is less Ubuntu then enabling it to judge yourself.
[01:39] <mako> Daviey: but they are guidelines and a set of common ground
[01:39] <cjwatson> LoudMouthMan: it's so that people understand the common community expectations
[01:40] <mako> mjg59: so i like your little enumerated list here
[01:40] <cjwatson> they were written to ensure that expectations of general decent behaviour were set right from the start
[01:40] <LoudMouthMan> yes I understood that , i took days to consider what it meant before i signed it i also blogged about it.
[01:40] <mako> mjg59: i think it was pretty concise. and i think we should add this to a new version of the CoC
[01:41] <LoudMouthMan> are we discussing the alternative process list ?
[01:41] <cjwatson> LoudMouthMan: it's not meant for people to wave at each other all the time, no, but when people genuinely aren't being decent to each other then it's appropriate to do something about it
[01:41] <mako> mgj59: after a broader consulatation with the community i guess.. we need to be careful changing something that most community members have already agreed to
[01:42] <cjwatson> mako: I would just put it somewhere on /community on the web site and have an informative reference in the CoC
[01:42] <cjwatson> I don't think it needs to be in the normative document
[01:42] <LoudMouthMan> I think the process amendment to me fits better into guideliness for leasership and responsibility.
[01:42] <cjwatson> LoudMouthMan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductDisputeResolution - it's not about leadership
[01:42] <LoudMouthMan> and we do need a greivance procedure somewhere.
[01:42] <cjwatson> this is such a proposed grievance procedure
[01:43] <LoudMouthMan> I know i read it . and Iunderstand it . but people goto authority and as such leadership . they rarely resolve it between themselves.
[01:43] <mako> cjwatson: ok, i don't feel too strongly either way
[01:43] <mjg59> LoudMouthMan: As I said, I don't like a couple of aspects of the alternate procedure suggestion - firstly that it provides no mechanism for an informal procedure, and secondly the fact that it immediately places both parties on moderation
[01:44] <cjwatson> LoudMouthMan: I'd much rather people were encouraged to at least try to resolve things between themselves at first. Going to authority all the time gets dysfunctional
[01:44] <mjg59> Sorry, that should have been "informal resolution" not "informal procedure"
[01:44] <LoudMouthMan> agreed people should resolve things together.
[01:45] <mako> who wrote the alternative procedure?
[01:45] <cjwatson> Mark Harrison
[01:45] <LoudMouthMan> Mark Harrison .
[01:45] <mako> yes, i see that
[01:45] <mako> is mark here?
[01:45] <LoudMouthMan> no , not that i can see.
[01:46] <mjg59> The CoC isn't a stick to beat people with, but at the same time failing to ensure that people view it as the standard for acceptable behaviour gives the impression that our community is less welcoming
[01:47] <mako> yes, by bypassing information method sof resolution, it gives up the mechanism by which 90% of prevoius coc "issues" have been resolved
[01:47] <mjg59> And it needs to be easy for people to express that they feel a specific action is against the CoC without feeling that by doing so they're tying themselves into a long and drawn out formal procedure
[01:47] <mako> i think with great effect in the larger community
[01:48] <cjwatson> mako: s/information/informal/?
[01:49] <mjg59> I'll admit that a malicious person could use something like the suggested process to stifle discussion, but I'd also be surprised if anyone tried to
[01:49] <war_> I am sorry to interfere, but why don't you just adopt a standard legal mediation procedure.
[01:49] <war_> The two parties assign a referee of their choice and these referees elect a third person to complete the judgement team. The team listens to both sides and takes a final judgement. Both quarreling parties accept the findings.
[01:49] <mako> cjwatson: yes
[01:49] <mako> mjg59: someone probably will try to at some point
[01:50] <mjg59> mako: Hm. Perhaps I have too much faith in people.
[01:50] <mako> mjg59: well, we're a big community :)
[01:50] <mako> but it won't happen often and that doesn't mean we don't come out on top with the policy anyway
[01:51] <mjg59> Abuse of the CoC weakens it, so it should be seen as equally unacceptable within the community
[01:52] <cjwatson> war_: the main difference I see there is that it allows things to be delegated below the community council, which is probably a good thing. I'm not sure that referee nomination would be practical in our environment though
[01:52] <mako> mjg59: yes, that's right
[01:52] <cjwatson> maybe amend mjg59's draft to say "the community council or another appropriate body"?
[01:52] <cjwatson> mjg59: ^--
[01:53] <mjg59> So how about I tidy up the proposal a bit, incorporate the suggestions that have been made and then run it past the CC mailing list?
[01:53] <Seveas> sounds like a plan
[01:53] <cjwatson> yep
[01:53] <mjg59> Ok. I'll do that, then.
[01:53] <mjg59> Thanks!
[01:53] <mako> mjg59: i'll work on it a little bit
[01:55] <Seveas> ok, so we can move on in the agenda?
[01:55] <mjg59> Yes, I think I'm done
[01:55] <Seveas> ok, war_ you're up (AustrianTeam)
[01:55] <Seveas> please introduce the team to us :)
[01:56] <war_> cjwatson: This procedure works well in a number of legal systems all over the world. It works crossing boundaries, language barriers and even technological barriers (and even over time).
[01:56] <war_> I followed the discussion and I see all the arguments I have heard otherwise.
[01:56] <war_> All the parties have to agree apon is a referee of their choice. The rest is settled by their trusted representatives.
[01:56] <cjwatson> war_: perhaps you could comment on the wiki page above, then
[01:57] <MikeB-> war_: a mediator  could be required in some cases, but we should let the community work out the problem and hopefully be adults:)
[01:58] <war_> cjwatson: I will put my thoughts on the wiki
[01:58] <war_> Seveas: Thanks for the opportunity to represent Austria Team
[01:58] <war_> I'm not that fast as most of yo
[01:59] <war_> Marion and myself represent the Austria Ubuntu Community
[01:59] <war_> Initially founded by Marion the team has formed in mid 2006
[02:00] <war_> I joined later
[02:00] <war_> Austria is geographically centered around Vienna (capital)
[02:00] <war_> There are 1/4 of the population in this area
[02:01] <war_> We have a small but active community here
[02:01] <war_> We operate a web portal, meet every other week and maintain strong communication in our web forum
[02:02] <war_> There are strong connections to official agencies interested in Open Source
[02:03] <war_> As we have reached a critical mass in Vienna, we decided to apply for official recognition as a LoCo Team
[02:03] <AndrewB> war_: the fora certinally looks active.
[02:03] <war_> thanks
[02:03] <jsgotangco> what's the url of the web portal?
[02:03] <AndrewB> http://www.ubuntu-austria.at/
[02:03] <war_> we have 275 registered members
[02:04] <war_> http://www.ubuntu-austria.at
[02:04] <mako> wow, that looks great
[02:05] <war_> One thing I forgot, we offer regular training sessions to kick start people into using Ubuntu
[02:05] <mako> what do those look like?
[02:05] <war_> (well, Marion does, shes the one to take credit)
[02:06] <war_> mako: The seminars? We have a photo session on the board
[02:06] <war_> 5 - 10 people, bring their computers or work on presentation machines
[02:06] <jsgotangco> the portal is awesome
[02:06] <war_> set up ubuntu, start some apps, see how easy it is
[02:06] <war_> hoefully switch
[02:06] <iGama> war_, nice
[02:07] <war_> Again: Credit to Marion, she is the one
[02:07] <war_> I just type (and slowly as I see)
[02:07] <mako> war_: how long have you been involved?
[02:08] <war_> mako: Involved into what?
[02:08] <war_> IT: 35 years
[02:08] <AndrewB> http://www.ubuntu-austria.at/album_pic.php?pic_id=31  Doesn't look like things are going too well ;)
[02:08] <war_> Windows: > 10
[02:08] <war_> Ubuntu: 6 months
[02:08] <marion> hello, I am also here, but write very slowly in english
[02:08] <war_> Thats excitement: ;-)
[02:09] <war_> After a c:> format c:
[02:09] <AndrewB> heh
[02:09] <iGama> Susana,  *
[02:10] <mako> war_: i meant ubuntu
[02:10] <marion> I get very animated when i explain people about ubuntu :)
[02:10] <mako> marion: me too :)
[02:11] <war_> mako: I had a bit of Unix knowhow previously but basically I am an MS guy
[02:11] <war_> I tried Ubuntu in summer 2006. Got interested
[02:11] <war_> led me to switch end of 2006
[02:11] <jsgotangco> ubuntu and a pack of smokes that's all you need to be productive indeed
[02:11] <war_> I dont smoke
[02:11] <war_> I dont drink
[02:12] <marion> i do!
[02:12] <iGama> LoL
[02:12] <mako> well i think the work here is great
[02:13] <mako> i'm happy welcome your team to the fold
[02:13] <mako> please keep up the great work
[02:13] <war_> Thanks and thanks for the warm welcome
[02:13] <AndrewB> :)
[02:13] <marion> thanks for the praise, we#ll definitely keep up the good work and are very excited!
[02:13] <elmo> +1 from me too
[02:13] <Seveas> cjwatson, ?
[02:14] <mako> is someone from ni here?
[02:14] <leogg> mako: over here
[02:14] <peperoni> yes we are!
[02:14] <mako> we're running late, please go ahead
[02:14] <Angeltronix> me too!
[02:14] <leogg> Greetings, and thank you all for allowing us to take a few minutes of your time today. My name is Leandro Gmez and I want to introduce you to the Nicaraguan LoCo Team (aka Ubuntu-ni). Our wiki entry is in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NicaraguanTeam (in Spanish) and our application can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NicaraguanTeam/ApprovalApplication
[02:14] <mako> i'll need to leave in 45m to get to another meeting
[02:14] <leogg> The Nicaraguan LoCo Team is commited to promote the use of free and open source software in Nicaragua. Our membership at last count were 42 members, althought not everybody are suscribed to Launchpad or listed in the main wiki. Ubuntu-ni is an active member of the REDSLCAN, a local network of Nicaraguan LUGs and FLOSS advocates, and we attend to meetings and collaborate with the different LUGs on a regular basis.
[02:14] <Seveas> then let's hurry :)
[02:15] <cjwatson> Seveas: (no problem from me)
[02:15] <leogg> What we do in Ubuntu-ni: 1) Advocacy: Ubuntu related seminars across the country, 2) Documentation: translations and compilation of HOWTOs, guides and tutorials in Spanish, 3) Support: we provide community support in our mailing list, IRC channel and on several Nicaraguan tech-boards on the web. 4) Local production and distribution of Ubuntu CDs
[02:15] <mako> leogg: you produce/distribute cds locally?
[02:15] <leogg> 5) Installfests, the Nicaraguan LoCo Team is the official organizer of the Latin American InstallFest (FLISOL) in Nicaragua. We are going to have +12 conferences and distribute 300 Ubuntu CDs, the whole event is going to be streamed live on the Internet and covered by local media (TV, radio and newspapers). This particular event has raised a huge amount of interest among the population and one of the major national newspapers has offered
[02:15] <leogg> mako: yes
[02:16] <leogg> 6) Localization, we are working hard on a local distribution of Ubuntu, one of the highlights for future releases is the translation of Ubuntu to Miskito, a language spoken by ~200K people in northeastern Nicaragua and southern Honduras. With this, Ubuntu will become the first OS on that language.
[02:16] <leogg> 7) We are organizing local user groups in the major universities and in several cities across the country. The idea of the local groups is being close to the end user and make a bigger impact on a local level. One of our local groups in the University of Managua has been officialy recognised by the authorities of the university and valuable resources, such as full access to a computer lab and unrestricted Internet access on campus has bee
[02:17] <leogg> We also have our Classroom Project that is aimed towards capacity building within our organisation. Our goal is to increase the level of participation and contributions of our members to the community. Another cool project we are going to start next month is the School Mentor Program, where every member of Ubuntu-ni is going to "adopt" an elementary schoool in order to teach Linux there for free.
[02:17] <Seveas> yay for localization :)
[02:17] <leogg> Future plans include collaboration and mentoring other teams in the area in order to make Central America an Ubuntu stronghold.
[02:17] <leogg> And with this I conclude our presentation. If you have any questions I'll be glad to answer them. Thank you.
[02:17] <elkbuntu> wow.. you guys sound busy
[02:18] <Seveas> good job folks!
[02:18] <leogg> elkbuntu: yes, wish the day had more than 24 hours
[02:18] <Seveas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NicaraguanTeam?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=NicaraguaTerritorioUbuntu-small.png is nice
[02:18] <leogg> Seveas: thanks
[02:18] <iGama> nice work leogg
[02:19] <leogg> iGama: thank you, I have a great team
[02:19] <iGama> thats important :)
[02:19] <leogg> iGama: yes, our members are very active and passionate about this
[02:20] <Angeltronix> that's right
[02:21] <elmo> leogg: your 7th point was cut off at 'on campus has bee'
[02:21] <mako> yes, the map is cute
[02:21] <leogg> elmo: One of our local groups in the University of Managua has been officialy recognised by the authorities of the university and valuable resources, such as full access to a computer lab and unrestricted Internet access on campus has been granted for the team.
[02:21] <leogg> mako: thank you
[02:22] <leogg> Angeltronix here is the coordinator of the University of Managua
[02:22] <elmo> leogg: cool, thanks - all looks very impressive
[02:22] <mako> leogg: so you send out hte cds personally?
[02:22] <leogg> he has done a great job over there
[02:22] <Angeltronix> yeah, I'm coordinating the group of The University of Managua
[02:23] <leogg> mako: yes, we ask everybodu who is interested to donate a blank cd to keep the ball rolling ;)
[02:23] <mako> the wiki pages looks completely awesome, by the way :)
[02:23] <peperoni> and i'm from de National University of engineering
[02:23] <leogg> mako: thank you, the whole collaborated on the wiki
[02:23] <AndrewB> The wikipage is amazing.
[02:23] <leogg> AndrewB: thanks
[02:24] <Angeltronix> well, the design was made by leogg...
[02:24] <AndrewB> The header graphic accross the top is a very nice addition. Maybe other LoCo groups should follow :D
[02:24] <Angeltronix> he made a great work!
[02:24] <leogg> AndrewB: it's a volcano located on an island here, we're are known to be the land of "lakes and volcanoes"
[02:25] <AndrewB> leogg: sounds slightly dangerous ;)
[02:25] <leogg> AndrewB: yes, it is indeed... but one gets used to it
[02:25] <mako> leogg: how many cds have you sent?
[02:26] <leogg> mako: this year slightly over 100
[02:26] <mako> leogg: i'm just trying to get a sense of whether this is something you might want to help document for other teams to replicate
[02:26] <mako> that's cool
[02:26] <leogg> on flisol we hope to distribute about 300
[02:26] <leogg> mako: will be happy to do
[02:26] <mako> are you at all involved with the larger loco community?
[02:26] <mako> you seem to be doing a few things that most other locos are not, it seemed like a litle documentation and work might be able to spread the ieas to others
[02:27] <leogg> mako: we have been communicating with other locos, yes
[02:27] <mako> great :)
[02:27] <mako> well i encourage you to do more of that, and to keep up the work
[02:27] <leogg> mako: of course, i'll be glad to help out
[02:27] <mako> +1 from me! welcome
[02:27] <leogg> mako: thank you
[02:28] <Angeltronix> thanks mako
[02:28] <peperoni> thanks!
[02:29] <Seveas> good
[02:29] <Seveas> let's move on to member candidates then
[02:29] <Seveas> AndrewB, you're first
[02:29] <AndrewB> Hey guys!

[02:30] <AndrewB> I am Andrew Alexander Barber, a Scottish GNU/Linux user for many years. I started contributing to the Ubuntu community after I found the very easy Rosetta translation 'tool', which was real useful as it is accessible from many locations and I tend to travel a lot. I started looking around the Ubuntu wiki and at launchpad to find all the different things that is being done within the community. I started making some documenta
[02:30] <AndrewB> Really I am echo'ing my wiki, which you guys can check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndrewBarber

[02:30] <AndrewB> ;)
[02:30] <Seveas> ScotsBuntu....
[02:30] <mako> AndrewB: what languages were you translating into?
[02:30] <Seveas> kinda scary ;)
[02:30] <AndrewB> mako: currently only Scots  as said on my wiki I am learning Gealic and hope to help out soon.
[02:31] <AndrewB> Seveas: could be if you go under them kilts.
[02:31] <mako> AndrewB: cool!
[02:31] <mako> AndrewB: how many others are participatingin the scots translation?
[02:32] <AndrewB> 1 other.
[02:32] <AndrewB> So we are very slow
[02:32] <AndrewB> I hope to get a few more mates to start.
[02:32] <AndrewB> I have one currently who I am teaching all the basics.. he would possibly help he says
[02:33] <AndrewB> He was going to come and thumbs up me but he is busy :(
[02:34] <mako> AndrewB: well, it seems that you are making good progress for a small team :)
[02:34] <AndrewB> mako: still alot of work sadly :(
[02:35] <AndrewB> Gealic may get a big influx and I hope to contact local council. It is [re] now the official language of Scotland, the goverment are putting ALOT of money into it. :D
[02:36] <AndrewB> Thanks schwuk
[02:36] <mako> wow, that's exciting
[02:37] <mako> i think that free software has a huge opportunity to make inroads in situations like this
[02:37] <mako> cjwatson: thanks for being here
[02:37] <jsgotangco> gaelic becoming official intersting...
[02:37] <AndrewB> Some schools are taking it all on, maybe edubuntu could step in here.
[02:37] <iGama> jsgotangco, yep
[02:37] <iGama> din't know about that
[02:38] <iGama> AndrewB, we in the Portuguese LoCo are think about that
[02:38] <iGama> in small schools
[02:38] <Seveas> mako, shall we do "elmo and mako ack, sabdfl is sent the logs for final ack"?
[02:38] <AndrewB> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic_language
[02:38] <jsgotangco> it would be intersting to see edubuntu spinoffs with specific languages
[02:38] <AndrewB> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B2rd_na_G%C3%A0idhlig
[02:38] <AndrewB> heh
[02:39] <AndrewB> [further info]
[02:39] <mako> Seveas: yes, lets do that
[02:40] <Seveas> ok, I'll take care of summarizing & log sending
[02:40] <mako> AndrewB: i was just looking at that article
[02:40] <mako> Seveas: thanks!
[02:40] <jsgotangco> does it also include irish gaelic?
[02:40] <AndrewB> mako: this is all in the future of what I hope to acheive
[02:40] <iGama> Feasgar math :D
[02:40] <mako> AndrewB: was the first loco team meeting yesterday?
[02:42] <AndrewB> mako: well.. it did not go too well, it was not well promoted and has not really been worth it. People didn't feel the need to travel for only a 'social meet' or that is what I assume. I am talking with people such as chaddy about another one, with a proper purpose. I hope to have one soon. I also want to let smaller towns up north join in. Places with not so much coverage such as Aberdeen
[02:42] <AndrewB> I think people are willing to attend should there be a proper talk.
[02:43] <AndrewB> The return I got from the original was low anyway. I went to where it was going to be held incase anybody did turn up. Alas it was quiet on the ubuntu members front
[02:44] <Seveas> too bad
[02:44] <mako> ah, too bad
[02:44] <AndrewB> I noticed the groups above efforts and hope to use their efforts here.. they seem to be doing well with them. [Install days, etc]
[02:44] <mako> AndrewB: well i appreciate your efforts in all of these areas
[02:44] <Seveas> we had the same in NL: social-only meet: a few people, meet with discussions: many more
[02:45] <mako> and am happy with a +1 for membreship from me
[02:45] <Seveas> elmo, ?
[02:45] <mako> AndrewB: and i look forward to meeting you at debconf this summer
[02:45] <AndrewB> thanks to mako
[02:45] <AndrewB> Oh you are attending? :D
[02:45] <elmo> +1
[02:45] <mako> of course!
[02:45] <AndrewB> and elmo thanks.
[02:45] <Seveas> ok, AndrewB. Almost there, I'll send the log to sabdfl after the meeting.
[02:45] <AndrewB> mako: great I will be the one stressing over my exams.
[02:45] <AndrewB> Seveas: that is great.
[02:45] <Seveas> iGama, you're up
[02:45] <iGama> Seveas, thanks
[02:46] <iGama> My name is Marco Da Silva, I've been using Gnu/Linux for about 4 years, and in Ubuntu for 3.
[02:46] <iGama> Part of the Portuguese LoCo Team, where i helping the translations and help in the organition.
[02:46] <iGama> Created a portuguese Wiki for the community.
[02:46] <Seveas> xerxas-, you back yet?
[02:46] <iGama> Born in South Africa, Living in Portugal
[02:47] <iGama> Majorly, I give support to new users
[02:47] <iGama> teaching them the system
[02:47] <Seveas> any folks from .pt here to cheer for iGama ?
[02:47] <iGama> yep
[02:47] <Susana> Hi, I'm here to cheer for iGama, he's a very active and enthusiastic member of the ubuntu-pt team
[02:47] <iGama> i hope
[02:47] <iGama> Constantino, Kmos Susana
[02:47] <iGama> :D
[02:48] <iGama> have 3 testimonials in the wiki page
[02:48] <Susana> he has put a great effort into translations and support
[02:48] <iGama> the www.guiaubuntupt.org has about 1000 unique daily visits,
[02:48] <Susana> he has created a very usefull wiki with tutorials
[02:48] <iGama> :)
[02:49] <Susana> and he does an amazing job at marketing
[02:49] <Susana> in Portugal
[02:50] <iGama> thanks Susana  :)
[02:50] <Seveas> did you create guiaubuntupt.org all by yourself?
[02:50] <iGama> yep started alone
[02:50] <jsgotangco> that's impressive
[02:51] <iGama> now i have some help occasionaly
[02:51] <iGama> :)
[02:51] <Belutz> is the meeting already started?
[02:51] <Seveas> Belutz, about 2 hours ago....
[02:51] <AndrewB> iGama: that looks a very nice site
[02:51] <Belutz> wew
[02:51] <iGama> AndrewB, thanks
[02:51] <iGama> :)
[02:52] <iGama> Constantino,  looks like is working
[02:52] <iGama> in university i try to help freshmen
[02:53] <iGama> most of them are new to linux
[02:54] <licio> iGama usually help the users in the #ubuntu-pt channel :)
[02:54] <AndrewB> That seems to be the best place to get people into GNU/Linux
[02:54] <SWAT> they are the high potentials
[02:54] <iGama> and like i said in the wiki, im talking with ANSOL ( portuguese Free Software association ) to organize a SL conference
[02:54] <iGama> AndrewB, SWAT yep
[02:55] <iGama> they like it
[02:55] <Constantino> he also helps people in the ptnet irc network
[02:55] <iGama> :)
[02:56] <Constantino> and he always looking for new ways to create documentation that may help people
[02:56] <Constantino> for example the Portuguese National Association for Free Software (ANSOL)
[02:56] <Constantino> as already talked with him
[02:57] <Seveas> Looks very good
[02:57] <Constantino> for a project to create screencasts
[02:57] <licio> I would recommend iGama being approved for membership for his strong advocating and helping.
[02:57] <mako> yes, this all looks great
[02:57] <Constantino> he's algo helping organizing a large event
[02:58] <Constantino> about free software
[02:58] <Seveas> events are good
[02:58] <Seveas> spread awareness!
[02:58] <mako> +1 from me
[02:58] <elmo> +1
[02:58] <Seveas> great
[02:58] <mako> this all looks fantastic
[02:58] <iGama> :D
[02:58] <Seveas> YokoZar, you're up!
[02:58] <iGama> thanks all :)
[02:58] <Constantino> this will take place in a large university
[02:58] <YokoZar> Hey there, I'm Scott Ritchie (from eg http://www.winehq.org/site/download).  For a while I've been making the Wine packages for Ubuntu (which have later been integrated into universe by \sh), however I never actually completed the membership process.  I'd like to support my packages more, and recent changes to the email process is going to require an @ubuntu.com address for the package maintainer field, so I figure now's a good t
[02:59] <mako> YokoZar: how long have you been doing the packages?
[02:59] <Seveas> YokoZar, that was trimmed at "now's a good"
[02:59] <iGama> Constantino, thanks man :)
[02:59] <YokoZar> so I figure now's a good time to actually finish the membership process.
[02:59] <YokoZar> mako: since before Breezy
[03:00] <YokoZar> I don't remember if my packages were in Hoary or not
[03:00] <Seveas> wine is one of those gooed upstreams who want to integrate properly
[03:00] <Seveas> I like such upstreams
[03:01] <war_> Have to leave, good luck
[03:01] <Seveas> YokoZar, are you planning to become MOTU as well?
[03:02] <YokoZar> Seveas: Probably.  I just graduated college, and I have a lot more time now.  As a MOTU, my chief focus would probably just be the Wine package though
[03:02] <jsgotangco> its a pretty good focus though
[03:02] <Kmos> +1 for iGama
[03:02] <Kmos> :)
[03:02] <jsgotangco> lots of impact happening on that front for sure
[03:02] <lotusleaf> I just wanted to add that I've been using Scott's wine builds in Ubuntu for a long time now and I've always found them to be quality and I feel that his help as an Ubuntu member would be useful to the extreme.
[03:03] <YokoZar> Yeah, things have gotten really exciting with Wine recently
[03:03] <iGama> Kmos,  lol my turn has ended already :)
[03:03] <Seveas> YokoZar, congrats on the graduation!
[03:03] <Kmos> iGama: but the log not :)
[03:03] <YokoZar> Thank you lotusleaf
[03:03] <xerxas> iGama, congratulation :)
[03:04] <lotusleaf> YokoZar, and thank you for your wine builds, I never knew you were on freenode. :)
[03:04] <iGama> yep YokoZar the wine packages work great :)
[03:04] <mako> YokoZar: i think i'm going to take the "it's about time" position on this on e:)
[03:04] <mako> +1 from me for solid and very long term contributions in terms of wine
[03:04] <SWAT> YokoZar, great work and keep it up :)
[03:04] <elmo> yeah, +1
[03:04] <Seveas> awesome
[03:04] <Seveas> xerxas, you're up
[03:05] <Seveas> (xerxas was first on the list but arrived late)
[03:05] <YokoZar> Thank you everyone.  Now I'm gonna go to bed since it's 6am here ;)
[03:05] <Seveas> YokoZar, g'night
[03:05] <iGama> YokoZar, sweet dreams ;)
[03:05] <Seveas> xerxas, please introduce yourself to us
[03:05] <mako> YokoZar: thanks for showing up
[03:06] <xerxas> Hi all
[03:06] <xerxas> I'm samuel maftoul , I'm contributing since probably 1 year and a half to ubuntu
[03:06] <xerxas> I'm often hanging on IRC and know some of the developpers.
[03:06] <xerxas> I'm mostly doing bug triaging and packaging.
[03:07] <xerxas> I have made my first package for edgy, and have a new package in feisty.
[03:07] <xerxas> I felt it was a good time to appy for memebership as I'm spending a lot of time with ubuntu in my life even If I don't have much time
[03:07] <Seveas> xerxas, did you find dholbach / seb128 ?
[03:08] <seb128> I'm around
[03:08] <xerxas> Seveas,  I dhollbach didn't replied yet
[03:08] <xerxas> I also had some contact with slomo as I have packaged some mono stuff
[03:09] <Seveas> seb128, xerxas told me you could vouch for him. Please do so if that's true :)
[03:09] <seb128> xerxas is hanging on IRC quite often, he does some bug triage and and work with the telepathy team
[03:10] <xerxas> Seveas,  it's true then :)
[03:11] <seb128> Seveas: I would not say he does huge amonth of work though
[03:11] <mako> seb128: has it been significant and sustained enough that you think he's ready for membership?
[03:11] <seb128> but small contribution are welcome as well ;)
[03:11] <mako> there's no shame is holding off for a meeting or two
[03:11] <seb128> mako: I don't have really a good idea on what you guys expect for membership
[03:12] <Seveas> seb128, few months of good contributions
[03:12] <mako> xerxas: your wiki page is pretty thin
[03:12] <seb128> "good contribution"
[03:12] <mako> we say "significant and sustained"
[03:12] <Seveas> seb128, that's always a judgement call :)
[03:12] <xerxas> mako,  I can updated it then
[03:12] <seb128> well, maybe not then
[03:12] <seb128> he's hanging on IRC
[03:12] <Seveas> too bad launchpad karma history doesn't go that far back
[03:12] <seb128> often points problem he's looking at
[03:12] <xerxas> I think dholbach is more aware of my work
[03:12] <Seveas> Edited Bug Title  	 2007-03-04 21:43:06 CET  2007-03-04
[03:12] <Seveas> Bug Rejected 	2007-01-09 01:03:14 CET 2007-01-09
[03:12] <seb128> he didn't do much bug triage nor actual fixing though
[03:13] <mako> i'd say at two least two months and in the top 25% of people one would call "contributors"
[03:13] <seb128> dholbach might be better placed to speak about telephathy team work
[03:13] <mako> xerxas: in the interest of time (i'm already 15 minutes over and you'l lhave to wait for an ack from someone not here anyway) why don't you get written testimonials and work on your wiki page and we'll revisit this at a future meeting
[03:13] <xerxas> I'm generally looking at new bugs comming and try to add some info to them
[03:13] <seb128> Seveas, xerxas: I would not say he's doing signifiant work, no
[03:13] <mako> xerxas: that's great :)
[03:13] <seb128> ups
[03:13] <mako> xerxas: you should keep it up :)
[03:14] <seb128> Seveas, mako: ^
[03:14] <xerxas> mako,  :)
[03:14] <xerxas> ok , let's see that for another review
[03:14] <Seveas> mako, we have one member candidate left now (who's a really good one), do you have time for him?
[03:14] <iGama> Brb
[03:14] <xerxas> last 2 months I have not been participating a lot
[03:14] <Seveas> xerxas, if you need help flshing out your wikipage, feel free to poke me
[03:14] <xerxas> I was moving and didn't have internet connexion at home
[03:15] <Seveas> xerxas, that explains :) Let's get your contributions properly documented for next time
[03:15] <xerxas> I have moved since yesterday
[03:15] <xerxas> now I'll have more free time
[03:15] <xerxas> (that's why I couldn't attend last community council meeting)
[03:16] <mako> Seveas: yeah, lets go :)
[03:16] <Seveas> ok
[03:16] <Seveas> SWAT, you're up
[03:16] <SWAT> Name: Sebastian Schauenburg - Description: M/23/Netherlands - Occupation: College student (IT) - Ubuntu contributions: P.R./Advocacy (sadly: hard to objectively quantify), supporting and setting up a couple of meetings, Education (a course about Linux -> very Ubuntu oriented), IRC support (#Ubuntu-NL), Forum support (forum.ubuntu-nl.org) - Plans: keep supporting Ubuntu and getting even more involved (including getting other people to use
[03:17] <Seveas> and let me be the first one to say \o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/ for SWAT
[03:17] <iGama> Seveas,  LOL
[03:17] <iGama> SWAT,  ;)
[03:17] <xerxas> :)
[03:17] <SWAT> Seveas, thanks for the cheer
[03:17] <iGama> Have to go work, see you later
[03:17] <Seveas> he's one of the driving forces behind the dutch locoteam
[03:17] <mako> SWAT: where in nl?
[03:18] <SWAT> mako, Woensdrecht (the south part, about 15 minutes from Belgium)
[03:18] <SWAT> south-west actually
[03:18] <Seveas> especially https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NlWinterMeeting2007 would not have been possible without him
[03:18] <gnomefreak> nl == neitherlands?
[03:18] <AndrewB> Yeah
[03:18] <Seveas> gnomefreak, almost. Lose the i :p
[03:19] <gnomefreak> ah ty ;)
[03:20] <SWAT> I don't know if silence is good, so if you have a question, just ask
[03:20] <elmo> "I can sell or recommend bad products, [...] " <-- missing a negative there I assume/hope
[03:20] <SWAT> elmo, ow, right, that's an error
[03:20] <SWAT> I somehow can't look someone in the eye and sell bad products or lie
[03:20] <mako> the winter meeting looks pretty great
[03:21] <Seveas> SWAT, silence is good, means people are reading your wikipage, launchpad thing etc...
[03:21] <iGama> :)
[03:21] <AndrewB> The meet does indeed look good [pics]
[03:22] <elmo> +1 from me
[03:23] <mako> yes, definitely, a +1 form me as well
[03:23] <Seveas> good :)
[03:23] <mako> keep on keeping the netherlands free :)
[03:23] <SWAT> merci, thanks guys :)
[03:23] <SWAT> I'll keep annoying people ;)
[03:23] <Seveas> next meeting would be april 17 -- is that doable, given release stress?
[03:24] <elmo> Seveas: well, none of the active CC (i.e. excluding cjwatson) are actively involved in that, so it's ok by me
[03:24] <mako> well, doesn't impact me hugely FWIW
[03:24] <mako> Seveas: pending an ACK from mark, lets plan on it
[03:24] <Seveas> ok, how about 19:00?
[03:25] <mako> yes, that's good
[03:25] <mako> or even 20:00
[03:25] <mako> to push it toward a different end of the day to help with timezone pressures
[03:25] <Seveas> fine by me
[03:25] <Seveas> elmo?
[03:26] <SWAT> general question: when will the 'final' word be out if we are official members?
[03:26] <Seveas> SWAT, when sabdfl replies :)
[03:26] <Seveas> I'll try to send him the summaries today (have to go in 15 minutes)
[03:26] <jsgotangco> SWAT: the weekly newsletter will be able to catch it as well
[03:27] <SWAT> merci guys, and you're also doing a great job!
[03:27] <Seveas> ok, thanks for joining everyone. elmo. I'm just going to assume 20:00 is ok for you, just poke me if that's not the case.
[03:28] <elmo> Seveas: yes, that's fine
[03:33] <lotusleaf> @now
[03:33] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 03 2007, 13:33:18 - Current meeting: Community Council
[04:40] <lotusleaf> @now
[04:40] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 03 2007, 14:40:59 - Next meeting: Kernel Team in 19 minutes
[05:15] <lotusleaf> @now
[05:15] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 03 2007, 15:15:25 - Next meeting: Mozilla Team in 2 hours 44 minutes
[05:46] <lotusleaf> @now
[05:46] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 03 2007, 15:46:09 - Next meeting: Mozilla Team in 2 hours 13 minutes
[06:58] <poningru> @now
[06:59] <AlexLatchford> @time
[06:59] <AlexLatchford> @time london
[06:59] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 03 2007, 16:59:33 - Next meeting: Mozilla Team in 1 hour 0 minutes
[06:59] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 03 2007, 16:59:34 - Next meeting: Mozilla Team in 1 hour 0 minutes
[06:59] <ubotu> Current time in Europe/London: April 03 2007, 17:59:35 - Next meeting: Mozilla Team in 1 hour 0 minutes
[06:59] <lotusleaf> @bringonthemeeting
[07:51] <Admiral_Chicago> sorry gents, can't make this meeting
[07:51] <Admiral_Chicago> hw to do
[07:55] <nixternal> not a good excuse
[07:55] <Admiral_Chicago> :(
[08:02] <gnomefreak> have we started yet?
[08:02] <hjmf> nope
[08:03] <gnomefreak> asac: AlexLatchford Admiral_Chicago  are you guys here?
[08:03] <asac> yeah
[08:03] <AlexLatchford> yep
[08:03] <hjmf> I think Admiral_Chicago couldn't be here
[08:03] <asac> Admiral_Chicago: cannot come
[08:03] <gnomefreak> i cant see anything can someone please chair the meeting for me
[08:03] <Admiral_Chicago> gnomefreak: yea, i have to get this HW done, i'll check in and out
[08:03] <gnomefreak> eterm is size of a nickle :(
[08:04] <asac> should be pretty short meeting
[08:04] <gnomefreak> last i looked there were 3 items
[08:04] <asac> be back in a minute ... sry ... then lets start
[08:04] <hjmf> four now
[08:04] <asac> agenda?
[08:04] <gnomefreak> oh ok cool
[08:05] <AlexLatchford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
[08:05] <AlexLatchford> gnomefreak: you want me to chair?
[08:05] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: i cant open links atm until i figure out how to copy and paste
[08:05] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: please
[08:05] <AlexLatchford> heh, okay
[08:06] <AlexLatchford> asac: Bughelper clue files for duplicates
[08:06] <asac> gnomefreak: type :)
[08:06] <asac> yes, i think its time to start with this
[08:06] <asac> anyone has any experience with bughelper?
[08:06] <gnomefreak> we really need david for this since he was working on them
[08:06] <asac> bughelper?
[08:06] <Admiral_Chicago> i used it before
[08:06] <asac> dholbach: hey :)
[08:06] <Admiral_Chicago> yes. read dholbach diary guide
[08:06] <gnomefreak> anyone know the status of david?
[08:06] <dholbach> heya :)
[08:06] <Admiral_Chicago> it was pretty useful
[08:06] <dholbach> Admiral_Chicago: rock on! :)))))
[08:07] <gnomefreak> asac: seeing as dholbach wrote it he might know
[08:07] <asac> dholbach: what are best-practices for figuring out duplicates with bughelper?
[08:07] <Admiral_Chicago> wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Diaries/dholbach iirc
[08:07] <dholbach> if you look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Diaries/dholbach you will see an example where I made use of that
[08:08] <Admiral_Chicago> yea, i can post a similar guide that I made with audacity crashes
[08:08] <dholbach> bughelper -T <package> <search string> <text you want it to output> -p <package>              will find stuff
[08:08] <dholbach> bugxml -a <package> <search string> <text you want it to output>          will write/extend a clue file for you
[08:08] <dholbach> if you commit that clue file, it will turn up at http://daniel.holba.ch/bugs
[08:08] <dholbach> so people have working lists they can work from
[08:09] <asac> where is the clue file created ?
[08:09] <asac> if i use bugxml like above?
[08:09] <gnomefreak> i suggest we commit as many as possible than. dholbach is it possible to get them added after release?
[08:09] <dholbach> gnomefreak: sure, just commit to a bzr branch
[08:10] <dholbach> asac: ~/.bughelper/config Local-Packages-Dir
[08:10] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper/doc/writing-clue-files
[08:11] <asac> ok ... i think we should figure out details on our own ... so better commit stuff to bugsquad ... or maintain cluefiles in mozillateam bzr?
[08:11] <dholbach> ~bugsquad
[08:11] <dholbach> bughelper checks out new clues every day
[08:12] <Admiral_Chicago> yep, its in main iirc
[08:12] <dholbach> so does bughelper on the host that has the http://daniel.holba.ch/bugs working lists
[08:12] <gnomefreak> it is
[08:12] <asac> ok. Admiral_Chicago, you want to setup initial clues for firefox?
[08:12] <dholbach> Admiral_Chicago: no, it's bzr data that gets checked out separately
[08:12] <Admiral_Chicago> right, i see that now
[08:12] <gnomefreak> oh
[08:12] <Admiral_Chicago> asac: i can give it a shot, I've got a fair understanding of the syntax
[08:12] <asac> good :)
[08:12] <Admiral_Chicago> and if not, i'm sure i'll come bother dholbach about it
[08:13] <dholbach> in the easy cases you don't even need to touch xml
[08:13] <dholbach> Admiral_Chicago: sure thing
[08:13] <asac> cool
[08:13] <lotusleaf> are you taking questions here or in #ubuntu-meeting-questions ?
[08:14] <gnomefreak> lotusleaf: in here
[08:14] <asac> lotusleaf: maybe after meeting
[08:14] <asac> add agenda item :)
[08:14] <gnomefreak> depends on the question
[08:14] <gnomefreak> ok Admiral_Chicago is working on clue files?
[08:14] <lotusleaf> but I waited so long ;_; ok thx
[08:14] <asac> yes ... if he needs something ask me or dholbach
[08:14] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: you might want to email david he might already have some set up
[08:15] <asac> lotusleaf: short question?
[08:15] <asac> then go ahead ;)
[08:15] <Admiral_Chicago> apparently I did a bad job about hiding in the background.
[08:15] <gnomefreak> lotusleaf: we just started the meeting
[08:15] <Admiral_Chicago> i will gnomefreak
[08:15] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: ty
[08:15] <lotusleaf> asac, it's not short in length but it's simple at the core
[08:15] <gnomefreak> lotusleaf: go ahead and ask
[08:15] <asac> i don't think david has much ... so starting from scratch should not be a problem imo
[08:15] <AlexLatchford> asac: ill answer it in -questions
[08:15] <lotusleaf> gnomefreak, thx, I did in -questions
[08:16] <asac> i am not in there ;)
[08:16] <asac> anyway
[08:16] <gnomefreak> me neither
[08:16] <asac> move ahead?
[08:16] <gnomefreak> please
[08:16] <asac> next item: apport hooks
[08:16] <gnomefreak> :(
[08:16] <asac> here we have some hooks in wiki
[08:16] <gnomefreak> another pain
[08:16] <asac> however i have no idea of the state
[08:17] <gnomefreak> me neither again that was a david job. his emails confused me to no end
[08:17] <asac> question is if we really need them for feisty
[08:17] <asac> or if we should wait for david?
[08:17] <gnomefreak> asac: now its too late isnt it?
[08:17] <asac> no
[08:17] <AlexLatchford> adding lotusleaf's question to the agenda
[08:17] <asac> if we have tested apport hooks we could add them
[08:17] <Admiral_Chicago> is apport going to be in Feisty
[08:17] <gnomefreak> freeze is this week no?
[08:17] <asac> AlexLatchford: ok
[08:18] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: yes
[08:18] <Admiral_Chicago> they was some talk about not releasing it for Feisty
[08:18] <asac> yes ... its about the "Report a bug ..." menu mainly
[08:18] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: its already in feisty
[08:18] <Admiral_Chicago> but only during dev cycle.
[08:18] <asac> and if people opt-in to crash submission
[08:18] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: they are shutting it off (so it doesnt report bugs on won)
[08:18] <gnomefreak> own*
[08:18] <Admiral_Chicago> what do you mean gnomefreak
[08:18] <Admiral_Chicago> oh i see
[08:19] <Admiral_Chicago> good
[08:19] <asac> in stable you have to opt-in in order to be asked to submit crashes
[08:19] <gnomefreak> Admiral_Chicago: right now you get a crash dialog. that will not happen after release unless you opt to do it
[08:19] <Admiral_Chicago> okay, that sounds better than getting a million reports.
[08:20] <asac> so mostly this is about: can we life with normal crash reports not containing the hook infos
[08:20] <asac> e.g. plugin packages
[08:20] <asac> et al
[08:20] <asac> s/life/live/
[08:20] <gnomefreak> would have to see the difference. right now there is no hooks for ff and tb so it wouldnt really matter imho
[08:21] <asac> thats right ... i think its fine
[08:21] <asac> we mostly need plugins for crashes imo
[08:21] <asac> which will not be soo common once feisty is stable
[08:22] <asac> as auto-submission is turned off by default
[08:22] <asac> so i guess its ok to not ship hooks in feisty :), agree?
[08:22] <gnomefreak> thats fine here
[08:22] <AlexLatchford> so, action on this is to get Admiral_Chicago to start writing clue files?
[08:23] <AlexLatchford> woops
[08:23] <asac> so far yes
[08:23] <asac> and ping david about apport hook state
[08:23] <AlexLatchford> okay
[08:23] <asac> ok whats next?
[08:23] <gnomefreak> i wouls say if he has some than get them in there but i dont think we should focus on that atm
[08:23] <gnomefreak> asac: that would be me
[08:24] <gnomefreak> anyone often in ubuntuforums
[08:24] <AlexLatchford> afraid not
[08:24] <hjmf> not me
[08:24] <gnomefreak> i need testers for a while with iceape
[08:24] <asac> anyone would volunteer to drop a message in ubuntuforums to find testers?
[08:25] <asac> e.g. for iceape?
[08:25] <gnomefreak> i built it for ubuntu (starter build) and need as much testing as possible before feisty+1 gets it
[08:25] <Admiral_Chicago> not me, i never go on the forums
[08:25] <asac> hmm
[08:25] <AlexLatchford> in Feisty+1?
[08:25] <gnomefreak> i will be trying to set up a repo in the next few days if i cant i will ask asac to throw it on preview. but i would like to change the name as it is now
[08:26] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: im looking at gettign it in feisty+1
[08:26] <AlexLatchford> aha okay
[08:26] <AlexLatchford> well ill give it a go
[08:26] <AlexLatchford> try and stir up some interest
[08:26] <AlexLatchford> it will be from your own repository?
[08:26] <asac> maybe we can blog about it?
[08:26] <AlexLatchford> and built to work on Feisty?
[08:26] <asac> instead of forums?
[08:26] <gnomefreak> k ty i will post it on blog sometime when i have it ready for testing (next couple of days)
[08:26] <AlexLatchford> thats a better idea
[08:27] <asac> and hope that the info leaks through to diffuse?
[08:27] <asac> diffuse in community
[08:27] <AlexLatchford> Freddy and David are on the Planet I believe
[08:27] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: mine or if asac agrees the preview repo
[08:27] <asac> good
[08:27] <gnomefreak> i know freddy is
[08:27] <Admiral_Chicago> AlexLatchford: yes, as is gnomefreak.
[08:27] <Admiral_Chicago> I'll blog about it if you email me
[08:27] <AlexLatchford> okay, well ill give you a buzz in teh near future to remind
[08:27] <gnomefreak> not sure if david is or not i havent seen him since he was accepted
[08:28] <Admiral_Chicago> he wrote on the planet a few times
[08:28] <AlexLatchford> gnomefreak: he is, has written several articles on development of the community, very interesting actually
[08:28] <AlexLatchford> okay, think this leads onto my point..
[08:28] <gnomefreak> it will be in /topic in 3ubuntu-mozillateam when its ready incase i forget to let people know. but i should also send post to list on it
[08:28] <asac> ok, once we have something to test we will drop message to mailing list
[08:28] <asac> and whoever wants can blog about it
[08:28] <asac> :)
[08:28] <AlexLatchford> sounds good to me
[08:28] <Admiral_Chicago> +1
[08:29] <gnomefreak> :) ok cool
[08:29] <AlexLatchford> AlexLatchford: Needs testing list.
[08:29] <asac> whats that about?
[08:29] <AlexLatchford> basically, I have been using the -mt builds, but I am unsure of exactly what needs testing
[08:29] <gnomefreak> mt should be done with next upload
[08:29] <AlexLatchford> if there is a changelog we can build
[08:29] <gnomefreak> right?
[08:30] <asac> changelog we can build?
[08:30] <AlexLatchford> or would this be counter-productive
[08:30] <asac> what do you mean?
[08:30] <AlexLatchford> changelog you can publish showing what has been fixed
[08:30] <asac> you want infos what things are for testing in mt-archive?
[08:30] <asac> ah ok
[08:30] <AlexLatchford> yeah
[08:30] <asac> changelog diff from official archive to mt-xxx
[08:30] <gnomefreak> asac: like what you gave me this morning i think
[08:30] <asac> yes, we can do that
[08:30] <AlexLatchford> because I use the -mt builds and I have no clue what to test
[08:31] <AlexLatchford> can you publish them to a page?
[08:31] <asac> ok fine. actually they are not always newer
[08:31] <asac> only if there is something to test
[08:31] <asac> yes, i will work on mt-xxx procedures
[08:31] <asac> and policies
[08:31] <AlexLatchford> aha thanks
[08:31] <asac> add that as an action
[08:31] <asac> its currently not defined what is in there and how up-to-date is that
[08:31] <asac> i see that this needs transparency
[08:32] <AlexLatchford> yep, because if we are going to look for preview testers, we should tell them what they are testing
[08:32] <asac> exactly
[08:32] <AlexLatchford> okay, i will minute that as an action
[08:32] <AlexLatchford> next
[08:32] <asac> i will think about it
[08:32] <gnomefreak> and i think we need to set this up as a team maybe?
[08:33] <asac> at best i want something automatic ... obviously :)
[08:33] <gnomefreak> so we have testers at hand most of time?
[08:33] <gnomefreak> not wiki LP
[08:33] <AlexLatchford> asac: I agree
[08:33] <AlexLatchford> it is not worth doing unless is it automatic
[08:33] <AlexLatchford> because it just takes away from your time
[08:34] <asac> AlexLatchford: no ... should be fine. I don't upload to mt so often
[08:34] <gnomefreak> we ALWAYS need testers either for builds or for patches or to dupe a bug
[08:34] <asac> it would just be inconvenient
[08:34] <asac> but i have to do that either way
[08:34] <AlexLatchford> hmm okay
[08:34] <asac> gnomefreak: yes
[08:34] <AlexLatchford> perhaps speak to the LP Team about expanding the Fix Commited /Released to include a version, then do a diff based on bugs fixed in a version?
[08:34] <asac> we should setup a test-work page
[08:35] <asac> where you can find mt-needtester mt-needtestcase bugs
[08:35] <asac> as well as things that should be tested in preview packages
[08:35] <asac> AlexLatchford: i talk to launchpad team regularaly
[08:36] <asac> however i think versioned bug tracking is still for the future
[08:36] <AlexLatchford> okay
[08:36] <asac> usually mt builds will contain patches for only some issues
[08:37] <asac> so they should be easy to list :)
[08:37] <asac> one just has to remember
[08:37] <asac> ;)
[08:37] <AlexLatchford> yeah sure
[08:37] <asac> ok ... are we through with this item?
[08:37] <AlexLatchford> think so
[08:37] <gnomefreak> asac: ok so start a LP test team?
[08:37] <asac> LP test team?
[08:37] <AlexLatchford> gnomefreak: good idea
[08:37] <AlexLatchford> yes, a mozilla-testing team
[08:38] <asac> hmm
[08:38] <gnomefreak> asac: for bug testing patch testing package testing ....
[08:38] <asac> maybe at some point
[08:38] <asac> but lets first get some testers :)
[08:38] <AlexLatchford> would be useful
[08:38] <asac> yes ... question is if a mozilla-testing team will allow us to more easily acquire more testers
[08:38] <gnomefreak> k
[08:38] <asac> ?
[08:39] <asac> i am not sure about that ... might be the case ... or might not be
[08:39] <AlexLatchford> it should do
[08:39] <gnomefreak> it may people love joining teams for the hell of it and its a way to get them involved in mozilla products imo
[08:39] <asac> hmm
[08:39] <asac> ok
[08:39] <gnomefreak> only way to tell is either a poll or do it
[08:40] <asac> lets say ... when we find 6 volunteers, lets setup one, ok?
[08:40] <gnomefreak> give me time to think about it on how to handle it and ill let everyone know but in mean time we need testers
[08:40] <asac> anyway, we first need the test page :)
[08:40] <asac> after that we can setup a team
[08:40] <asac> because a team that has nothing to do is not worth much :)
[08:40] <gnomefreak> agreed
[08:41] <AlexLatchford> okay
[08:41] <AlexLatchford> lets move on
[08:41] <asac> ok .... next item?
[08:41] <AlexLatchford> lotusleaf: Possibility of adding SeaMonkey & NVU to Feisty Repositories
[08:41] <AlexLatchford> think this deadline has gone
[08:41] <gnomefreak> seamonkey yes its iceape
[08:41] <AlexLatchford> but for Feisty+1
[08:41] <AlexLatchford> oh okay
[08:41] <asac> lotusleaf: Possibility of adding SeaMonkey & NVU to Feisty Repositories
[08:41] <gnomefreak> nvu doublt full but someone was working on this
[08:41] <gnomefreak> all for feisty+1
[08:41] <AlexLatchford> IceApe is the debian version though?
[08:41] <asac> we don't have an nvu package
[08:41] <asac> i don
[08:41] <asac> t know the state of tony
[08:42] <asac> iceape is seamonkey with different logo and icon
[08:42] <gnomefreak> asac: nvu stopped support and went to kompozer
[08:42] <gnomefreak> it was tonyyarusso  wasnt it
[08:42] <asac> yes
[08:42] <asac> can't tell how far he got
[08:42] <asac> haven't heard much
[08:42] <gnomefreak> me neither
[08:42] <asac> probably he gave up on it :)
[08:42] <AlexLatchford> so tonyyarusso was on NVU?
[08:42] <AlexLatchford> hmm okay
[08:42] <gnomefreak> is that all for important items?
[08:43] <asac> anyway, i think once the feisty+1 packages are there it will be pretty easy for anyone to maintain mozilla packages
[08:43] <asac> at least much more then today :)
[08:43] <lotusleaf> AlexLatchford, according to the !nvu information the bot has
[08:43] <AlexLatchford> !nvu
[08:43] <ubotu> nvu is a WYSIWYG and code dual-function HTML editor for easily creating web pages.  The original developer is working on a full rewrite; meanwhile, another is doing bugfixes.  It is not the Ubuntu repos for Feisty Fawn, but ping tonyyarusso to inquire about packages.  See also !html.
[08:43] <gnomefreak> !info nvu feisty
[08:43] <ubotu> Package nvu does not exist in feisty
[08:43] <AlexLatchford> aha okay, well NVU is planned to be in Feisty+1
[08:43] <AlexLatchford> ?
[08:43] <gnomefreak> lotusleaf: it was removed first couple of weeks repos were open
[08:44] <AlexLatchford> and SeaMonkey is planned as IceApe
[08:44] <gnomefreak> AlexLatchford: not sure of the name yet
[08:44] <asac> AlexLatchford: depends on how we can maintain it
[08:44] <lotusleaf> gnomefreak, thanks for details
[08:44] <AlexLatchford> asac: but if a maintainer can be found, there is no reason as to why not?
[08:44] <asac> sure
[08:44] <AlexLatchford> aha good
[08:44] <lotusleaf> any possibility for IceApe since it will offer web browser news/email client, irc client, wysiwyg composer then since Nvu is out?
[08:44] <asac> lotusleaf: not for feisty ... sorry
[08:44] <gnomefreak> lotusleaf: nothing can be put in feisty
[08:45] <asac> we are far after hard freeze
[08:45] <gnomefreak> i will have repo open for iceape testing packages
[08:45] <asac> complete new packages are out of question
[08:45] <AlexLatchford> Feisty+1 probably the best bet
[08:45] <asac> lotusleaf: anyway, probably you will see feisty backports at some point
[08:45] <lotusleaf> asac, I thank you and the others for your time :) I hope to do testing for you in the future.
[08:45] <gnomefreak> ok i need to go this has pissed me off way too much
[08:45] <asac> lotusleaf: gnomefreak will provide packages for feisty
[08:45] <asac> in a day or too
[08:45] <asac> if its for you, you can use those
[08:45] <gnomefreak> make it 2
[08:45] <lotusleaf> asac, thx np, I build myself anyway, was just hoping for inclusion for the masses
[08:46] <asac> ok
[08:46] <gnomefreak> ok bye ill be bvack in a few hours maybe less
[08:46] <asac> ok cu
[08:46] <asac> thanks all
[08:46] <lotusleaf> thanks again for taking my question \o/ :)
[08:46] <asac> till next meeting (whenever that will be) :)
[08:46] <AlexLatchford> :)
[08:46] <asac> lotusleaf: welcome
[08:47] <AlexLatchford> Any news on Feisty+1 naming?
[09:09] <nicotinammide> hi
[09:32] <KeBotto> Ciao a tutti
[09:46] <spyro_boy> hai hai


[00:18] <michaelh1> Hmm.  bzr branch -v lp:gcc-linaro/4.5 as part of creating a mirror branch is sitting there at 1kB/s after about 300 kB.  I see the same on a machine with a good network connection like chinstrap
[00:19] <michaelh1> Ah!  It hit ~380 kB, finished the 'fetching revisions' stage, and is now at ~1MB/s
[03:09] <michaelh1> Hi there.  I could use some help with performance.
[03:09] <michaelh1> I'm working on the gcc-linaro branch, which is huge, and pull and/or checkout operations take a long time
[03:10] <michaelh1> A pull on one machine has been in the 0/3 merge phase for the last 15 minutes
[03:10] <michaelh1> 2.2b4 is much better, but still too slow with how I'm using it
[03:48] <poolie> spiv, can you help michael?
[04:05] <spm> ref<EMAIL_ADDRESS><== I'm sure there's a page on the bzr wiki/docco somewhere that describes this - using bzr/tc for slow networks etc, but am having finders failure; anyone have a link handy?
[04:11] <poolie> hi spm
[04:11] <spm> heya poolie
[04:11] <poolie> well the specific thing that patch is updating is http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.dev/developers/testing.html#simulating-slow-networks
[04:12] <poolie> there may be other pages that mention it
[04:12] <spm> ahh perfect. that looks like the one I was looking for. ta!
[04:12] <poolie> i'd like to believe there's a good reason the syntax is so obtuse :)
[04:13] <spm> "because"
[06:53] <lostinspace_46> This will sound really stupid, but I want to get the grub 2 graphical manager from a bazaar branch, and I can't figure out how
[06:59] <ddaa> maybe "bzr branch lp:grub"
[07:00] <ddaa> or maybe the "graphical manager" is something else
[07:01] <ddaa> Oh, btw, someone at Canonical should really redraw the icon of the "VCS Imports" user, it does not make sense anymore since we switched away from GNU Arch.
[09:33] <spiv> Hmm, I have some productively failing tests.  I guess that's a good time to clock off for the day.
[14:47] <VSpike> Having trouble using mv --after here... can anyone help? http://pastebin.com/wvjdKR2R
[14:48] <jelmer> VSpike: That file isn't versioned, you can't use 'bzr mv' to move it
[14:50] <VSpike> jelmer: if you look at the "bzr st" output, it lists deployment/connections.geonixlocate.config as a removed file
[14:51] <jelmer> VSpike: if it's removed, you have to revert it again first before moving it I think
[14:52] <VSpike> Hm I'm sure I've never had this problem before. In fact, I succesfully did it in this branch with other files that I'd moved and then wanted to tell bzr about
[14:55] <jelmer> I'm not sure in that case.
[15:27] <VSpike> jelmer: this doesn't look good, does it? http://pastebin.com/GS4ztGni
[15:27] <VSpike> I moved the files back to where they were before and that is the result
[15:29] <jelmer> VSpike: You need to re-add ("bzr add") them
[15:29] <jelmer> VSpike, Right now some of those files are present but not versioned, hence them showing up in "removed" and "unknown"
[15:30] <VSpike> If I re-add them, then the show in removed and added
[15:31] <VSpike> But surely I will still lose the history of the file that way?
[15:32] <jelmer> VSpike: "bzr revert" should be able to help
[15:32] <VSpike> Normally if you remove a file and bzr st shows it removed, if you put it back it just vanishes from the bzr st output
[15:34] <VSpike> Yeah, I was thinking that.  Because they were moved and changed, I'll have to rename the new versions, revert the removed ones, copy the changes in, then bzr mv them
[15:34] <VSpike> Well, worth a try anyway
[15:42] <VSpike> seems to have worked :)
[16:18] <jam> hi jelmer
[16:18] <jam> (4am is usually a bit early for me to respond :)
[16:57] <jelmer> jam: 'morning!
[16:59] <sinasalek> Hi everyone
[16:59] <jelmer> hi sinasalek
[16:59] <sinasalek> I have a question about branches located inside repositories
[16:59] <sinasalek> When i push a branch into a repository it act like a working copy
[17:00] <sinasalek> Is it possible not to have files checked out on branches inside repository.
[17:00] <sinasalek> ?
[17:01] <sinasalek> Is my question clear?!
[17:01] <LeoNerd> If you e.g. ssh on to the repository server and "bzr checkout" in that branch directory, a checkout will be created yes
[17:01] <LeoNerd> But... "bzr push" from elsewhere (or the implied push that happens during a bound commit) will not keep that checkout updated
[17:02] <LeoNerd> So it will become stale, unless you find some other mechanism to "bzr up" it each time
[17:05] <sinasalek> Tx but that wasn't what i meant. lets ask it in another way. How can clone a branch but only clone its working tree and not the checkout files inside it?
[17:10] <sinasalek> And another way!
[17:10] <sinasalek> Reproducing
[17:10] <sinasalek> 1. Create a shared repository
[17:10] <sinasalek> 2. Create a trunk branch inside it
[17:10] <sinasalek> 3. Push a checked out branch else where to trunk
[17:10] <sinasalek> What i expected?
[17:10] <sinasalek> I expected push to only copy the working tree of the "checked out branch" and not the checked out files inside it.
[17:10] <sinasalek> Why do i need it?
[17:10] <sinasalek> To preserve disk space, checkedout files are not compressed
[17:12] <sinasalek> Any idea?
[17:17] <sinasalek> In subversion repository is only repository you can't use it directly for development. If you want to you have to checkout a branch on another location. In bazaar however it's different.
[17:18] <sinasalek> How can i make bazaar repository to act similar to subversion (to only contain working trees and not checked out files!)
[17:20] <sinasalek> chx: I'm looking for a command or a switch to ignore the checked out files
[17:24] <terrycojones> anyone up for looking at problem i'm having with bzr merge?  explanation at http://dpaste.com/222815/
[17:25] <terrycojones> in summary: diff of two files looks fine, but the conflict shown by bzr merge does not (it's missing a line). i guess i must be doing something wrong... but don't know what.
[17:29] <sinasalek> http://pastebin.com/KFWfDGVW
[17:38] <sinasalek> Does any one have time to have a look at my repo structure and lighten with his vauable advices? http://pastebin.com/VfK7KCbY
[18:11] <rubbs> sinasalek: I'm not sure I understand your question, you are looking to make a repo that is just for servers? one without a working tree? You just want the revision history so people can checkout from it correct?
[18:12] <rubbs> sinasalek: if so, than bzr init-repo --no-trees will create a repo with no working files, just the revision history.
[18:27] <sinasalek> rubbs: yes exactly! thanks
[18:28] <rubbs> sinasalek: np
[18:29] <rubbs> sinasalek: also, there is no magic repo structure, anytime you branch ( or clone) from the repo, you create your own repo. It's kind of hard to understand at first, but once you understand it, it becomes that much more clear
[18:31] <sinasalek> rubbs: Yes it seems that i still have problem understanding how bazaar works exactly :) i thought that working tree was the same thing as revision history in bazaar!!
[18:31] <rubbs> sinasalek: it's hard, took me a while. Just keep asking questions, someone here will help you out
[18:32] <rubbs> basically think of each branch as it's own repo. You get your own personal repo each time you branch
[18:32] <rubbs> you actually merge repos when you merge branches... or at least that's how I conceptualize it
[18:35] <sinasalek> rubbs: i see,  with people like you around i'm not worried at all ;)
[18:35] <fullermd> That...   sounds like it would just be more confusing in the long run...
[18:36] <rubbs> fullermd: well, I should clarify, that's how i used to conceptualize it. it's enough to get started at least
[18:36] <fullermd> Actually, it makes me crosseyed on the short run too   :p
[18:37] <rubbs> fair enough.
[18:37] <rubbs> DVCS is hard to nail down one good way to conceptualize IMHO
[18:37] <fullermd> sinasalek: I'd like to know if http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/MatthewFuller/SpotDocs/PiecesInBrief is any help to you.
[18:39] <sinasalek> rubbs: Aha! it's good! i read dozens of documents but i didn't see this one!
[18:39] <rubbs> oh, thank fullermd not me ;)
[18:39] <sinasalek> :)
[18:40] <rubbs> I didn't know about that one either, fullermd. I'll use that for further questions, thanks.
[18:40] <sinasalek> fullermd: Aha! it's good! i read dozens of documents but i didn't see this one! DVCS is a hole great new world
[18:40] <sinasalek> fullermd: why don't yuo move it to official doc? it's very helpful for newbies
[18:41] <fullermd> The SpotDocs are an ongoing (in the sense of "not done", sadly not in the sense of "I get a lot of time to keep working"  :(  ) project of mine to try and give complete answers to specific questions.
[18:41] <fullermd> The PiecesIn* bits are groundwork below that to nail down vocabulary and base concepts.
[18:42] <sinasalek> fullermd: This is great work you're doing. Are you on Bazaar doc team?
[18:43] <fullermd> Oh, no.  I've just used bzr for a while.
[18:44] <sinasalek> rubbs: i just tried bzr --remove-tree  an it has fixed!!! This was one of my few major issue with bazaar. Thanks man you rock
[18:44] <rubbs> sinasalek: np. glad to hear you're making progress
[18:45] <sinasalek>  fullermd: You should notify them about your work, they might be able to give you a hand and include at least part of it in official doc
[18:46] <fullermd> Oh, it's known.  It's jut very much a WIP (and I'm not quite sure it really fits into any good slot in the existing official doc gestalt)
[18:54] <sinasalek> My article has quite some visits, i included a link to your doc page. least i can do. keep up the good work :) http://sina.salek.ws/node/1314/revisions/1459/view?diff=1
[19:20] <sinasalek> Do you consider Bazaar 2.2b4 stable enough to use?
[19:21] <fullermd> Well, I track the dev head, so...
[19:21] <jam> sinasalek: yes
[19:21] <jam> the beta means that we are allowed to change internal apis
[19:21] <jam> so plugins may not work
[19:21] <jam> etc
[19:22] <jam> it doesn't mean the code is actually unstable
[19:22] <sinasalek> jam: I tought that was what alpha is for
[19:22] <sinasalek> fullermd: You mean you're using dev?!
[19:22] <fullermd> No, alpha is for sacrificing on an altar to try and get people to buy Itanium  ;p
[19:22] <jam> sinasalek: bzr.dev (the trunk branch) must pass its full test suite for every revision
[19:22] <jam> most of the developers use it (dogfooding)
[19:23] <sinasalek> jam: That's great, i'm ok with crashes as long as it does not corrupt my repo
[19:23] <jam> sinasalek: nothing to worry about for repo corruption
[19:24] <sinasalek> jam, fullermd: thanks , lets try it then :)
[23:00] <mtaylor> bzr bd - I've got a branch which is working fine for both me and several other people, but one guy gets:
 mtaylor: bzr: ERROR: Unable to find the needed upstream tarball: swift_20100728203750.orig.tar.gz.
[23:01] <mtaylor> it's using pristine-tar/import-dsc and all... he has the same version of bzr-builddeb I have - any ideas on where to look?
[23:03] <jam> mtaylor: do you already have the .orig.tar.gz laying around on your system?
[23:03] <jam> If you move it out of the way, and run again, does 'bzr bd' still work ?
[23:03] <poolie> mtaylor: perhaps it's an out-of-date version of builddeb?
[23:03] <jam> hi poolie
[23:03] <mtaylor> jam: I tried in a completely fresh dir
[23:03] <poolie> otherwise i'd look at the traceback in that error to see just what it's checking
[23:04] <jam> mtaylor: does that include not having it in the parent dir?
[23:04] <jam> IIRC it always looks in ../ for the .orig.tar.gz
[23:04] <mtaylor> jam: yup
[23:04] <mtaylor> jam: I went to a completely unrelated tree
[23:04] <mtaylor> poolie: same version of builddeb - although I will say that what apt says the version is and what bzr says the version is do not match
[23:04] <jam> mtaylor: and your bd output *does* include a line about 'pristine-tar' ?
[23:04] <jam> mtaylor: that would indicate a plugin vs a system-wide install
[23:04] <jam> (probably)
[23:05] <mtaylor> jam: <letterj> started back from scratch and repulled the code. A dependency error came up for python-all.  Fixed that and everything worked ok
[23:05] <jam> mtaylor: well then, no problems here :)
[23:06] <mtaylor> jam: $ bzr plugins | grep builddeb
[23:06] <mtaylor> builddeb 2.2.0
[23:06] <mtaylor>  apt-cache policy bzr-builddeb
[23:06] <mtaylor> Installed: 2.4.2
[23:06] <mtaylor> also - I cleaned out my ~/.bazaar/plugins dir
[23:06] <mtaylor> this isn't bothering me - I just thought I'd let you know about it while we were talking
[23:09] <jam> mtaylor: bzr plugins -v should also show you what plugin it is loading
[23:09] <jam> It is also possible that somebody updated one version string without updating the other.
[23:10] <mtaylor> jam: /usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/bzrlib/plugins/builddeb
[23:10] <jam> I think I saw something recently from statik that hard-coded a version in setup.py and didn't use the one from package/__init__.py, which is certainly the type of thing that can cause skew.
[23:10]  * mtaylor pokes statik in the eye
[23:10] <jam> I'm not sure if that is bzr-builddeb or another project right now
[23:12] <jam> poolie: you seem to be back in your regularly scheduled TZ. How were your flights?
[23:24] <poolie> hi there jam; they were pretty tolerable
[23:24] <poolie> qantas sent me a voucher as an apology for the long delays on the way over, which was nice
[23:24] <jam> poolie: I'm past due on stopping for the day, but it would be fun to chat when we can get a chnace
[23:24] <jam> chance
[23:25] <poolie> ok, i'm away tomorrow to visit igc
[23:25] <poolie> i'll try to be online early tuesday and we could talk then
[23:25] <poolie> or you can call me later tonight
[23:26] <james_w> mtaylor: it's possibly an issue with the version of pristine-tar, but I guess you are on the same version?
[23:27] <mtaylor> james_w: it got sorted... somehow it was a missing python-all
[23:27] <james_w> ah
[23:27] <james_w> odd
[23:33] <poolie> python-all was not installed?