[05:36] <KrowK> How do I clear the H/D using grub
[05:44] <KrowK> Hello, how do I save the commands i.e. when grub comes up, I press "e", make my changes but cannot save
[09:52] <IKN> Hi everyone. I downloaded the mini.iso and installed the Lubuntu-desktop in the virtual machine. However, when I started the machine, it cannot start in the LXDE, but in the command-line
[09:53] <IKN> So, is there anything wrong with my choice in installaion?
[09:55] <IKN> I chose the "Lubuntu-desktop" choice when the installer told me to select the software selection
[10:44] <joedj> heyas.  i have a cubietruck that I haven't used in a few years - it looks like the OS is no longer supported, and the apt repos are missing.  any help on getting it back up to date / working?
[10:44] <joedj>  /etc/issues identifies it as Linaro 13.04
[10:44] <joedj>  /etc/issue ...
[10:46] <Unit193> !eolupgrades
[10:47] <Unit193> IKN: Sounds like you didn't get lightdm, or it's not starting properly.  However, if you selected the Lubuntu task, it should be installed.  I'd first check that it is, then if a start was attempted.
[11:09] <joedj> thanks Unit193
[14:07] <drazen76> hey guys
[14:07] <drazen76> any news about lxqt?
[15:01] <Anti-Pizza> can someone link me to a manual or smth
[15:02] <Anti-Pizza> about how to RDP from windows7 to lubuntu
[17:13] <spider_x> Hello :)
[17:24] <Anti-Pizza> hi
[17:36] <Bill-T> Question anyone here tried installing lubuntu onto a USB, while also having it use encrypted swap? preferably a swap with a random key each boot.
[18:04] <Bill-T> or when you encrypt the home folder is swap already encrypted randomly, I am installing now but there was a weird line in the install dialogue that said cryptsetup warning target cryptswap1 has a random key


[08:51] <nicoz> o/
[15:56] <ddstreet> o/
[15:59] <mapreri> o/
[16:00] <Mr_Pan> hi o/
[16:01] <ddstreet> teward around?
[16:02] <ddstreet> let's give teward a minute or two, then get started
[16:02] <mapreri> sure
[16:04] <ddstreet> ok let's go ahead then
[16:04] <ddstreet> #startmeeting Ubuntu Backporters
[16:04] <meetingology> Meeting started at 16:04:09 UTC.  The chair is ddstreet.  Information about MeetBot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
[16:04] <meetingology> Available commands: action, commands, idea, info, link, nick
[16:04] <ddstreet> ok! let's go over previous action items...i think some did get done :)
[16:04] <ddstreet> #topic Previous Action Items
[16:04] <ddstreet> #subtopic ddstreet email ubuntu-devel list to announce re-opening of backports (carried over)
[16:04] <ddstreet> sadly not yet :( i definitely will before next mtg :)
[16:05] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet email ubuntu-devel list to announce re-opening of backports (carried over)
[16:05] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet email ubuntu-devel list to announce re-opening of backports (carried over)
[16:05] <ddstreet> #subtopic ddstreet open bug on u-d-t to update backportpackage script
[16:05] <ddstreet> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-dev-tools/+bug/1959115
[16:05] <ddstreet> done!
[16:05] <mapreri> oh, reading
[16:06] <ddstreet> well it's only a bug opened to track it
[16:06] <ddstreet> so, the actual *work* isn't done
[16:06] <mapreri> sorry, reading what you wrote here heh
[16:06] <mapreri> I was distracted
[16:06] <mapreri> yeah, I've seen that bug in my mailbox, cool, ta
[16:06] <ddstreet> #subtopic ddstreet update wiki page clarifying requestors should subscribe ~ubuntu-backporters to BPO bugs
[16:06] <ddstreet> mapreri did this one - thanks! :)
[16:06] <ddstreet> #subtopic ddstreet update internal KB page with details about uploads going to 'New' instead of 'Unapproved' queue (carried over)
[16:06] <mapreri> I actually forgot it was part of the meeting todo when I did lol
[16:07] <ddstreet> yeah me too :)
[16:07] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet update internal KB page with details about uploads going to 'New' instead of 'Unapproved' queue (carried over)
[16:07] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet update internal KB page with details about uploads going to 'New' instead of 'Unapproved' queue (carried over)
[16:07] <teward> i'm late sorry
[16:07] <teward> got busy with a call to GoDaddy
[16:07] <ddstreet> #subtopic ddstreet update tooling, requestbackport, backportpackage (carried over)
[16:07] <ddstreet> need to carry that as well - and as before, if either of you want to do the tool updates please feel free
[16:08] <mapreri> wait, the one about backportpackage, was that checked recetly?
[16:08] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet update tooling, requestbackport, backportpackage (carried over)
[16:08] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet update tooling, requestbackport, backportpackage (carried over)
[16:08] <mapreri> i figured unit193's patch was enough, or..?
[16:08] <ddstreet> i have not actually checked...
[16:08] <ddstreet> does it match our new process?
[16:08] <mapreri> well, in backportpackage it was mostly about adapting the changelog version, and that was done, so I *think* so
[16:09] <mapreri> but should probably be extra-verified…
[16:09] <ddstreet> ok yeah, let's leave the action in there at least until we double-check it works as we expect
[16:10] <mapreri> also, perhaps the bug above should be changed to include also requestbackports, perhaps
[16:10] <mapreri> if you ack I'll tweak the title and text
[16:10] <ddstreet> yep ack
[16:10] <ddstreet> thanks!
[16:10] <ddstreet> #subtopic ddstreet fix-released bugs for accepted uploads
[16:11] <ddstreet> that's done, for all bugs our team is subscribed to
[16:11] <ddstreet> #subtopic ddstreet raise topic of rescheduling meeting on ML
[16:11] <ddstreet> i did not send this email yet...should we just discuss now? or will it be easier to work it out on ML?
[16:12] <mapreri> here would be quicker most likely.
[16:12] <ddstreet> this day/time works ok for me for the first 30 min...i have an overlap at the bottom of the hour though
[16:12] <ddstreet> mapreri teward is there a better day and/or time for you?
[16:13] <teward> i don't mind adjusting the schedule times
[16:13] <teward> my schedule is relatively flexible until chaos erupts at FT job
[16:13] <mapreri> I'd have a preference if we could move this back 1 hour.  In practice, follow DST, so in winter it would be at 17 UTC instead of 16 UTC (but not in summer)
[16:14] <ddstreet> that would probably work for me, though i would have a mtg right before it so i may be late sometimes
[16:14] <mapreri> → https://time.is/compare/1700_26_Jan_2022_in_UTC
[16:14] <ddstreet> actually, my meeting usually ends on time, so 17:00 utc should work for me
[16:14] <teward> that works for me
[16:15] <mapreri> perhaps 17.15 or .30 so it's not a risk of overlaps?  it's not our meeting takes up much
[16:15] <mapreri> and what does your other meeting do wrt DST?
[16:15] <ddstreet> mapreri if we track DST though, i believe USA and Europe have different DST start/end dates?
[16:15] <ddstreet> my other meeting does track USA DST
[16:15] <mapreri> yeah well, in that time normally either one side or the other just suck it for one round :3
[16:16] <mapreri> (leaving the choice to whoever organizes)
[16:16] <ddstreet> ok so are we all ok with 17:30 UTC, following USA DST?
[16:17] <ddstreet> meaning, 12:30PM Eastern time
[16:17] <mapreri> so next round would be https://time.is/compare/1730_09_Feb_2022_in_UTC ?
[16:17] <ddstreet> yep
[16:17] <teward> yup
[16:17] <teward> works here
[16:17] <mapreri> cool
[16:17] <ddstreet> awesome! i'll action item that change
[16:18] <mapreri> that said, the 9th of Feb I might be travelling during the whole afternoon so I might miss it (i'll confirm it later on though)
[16:18] <mapreri> :/
[16:18] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet schedule next meeting at 12:30pm Eastern time, following USA DST schedule
[16:18] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet schedule next meeting at 12:30pm Eastern time, following USA DST schedule
[16:18] <mapreri> now, to just drop DST what do we do
[16:18] <mapreri> re-aligning the world
[16:18] <ddstreet> i really want everywhere to drop DST
[16:18] <ddstreet> it's just too annoying
[16:19] <ddstreet> annoying enough locally - but then having to work out the differences with contacts in other countries/TZs
[16:19] <ddstreet> it hurts my head
[16:19] <ddstreet> ok anyway, let's move on
[16:19] <ddstreet> #subtopic mapreri propose text for membership process to add to KB page (carried over)
[16:19] <mapreri> yeah, carried over
[16:20] <ddstreet> #action mapreri propose text for membership process to add to KB page (carried over)
[16:20] <meetingology> ACTION: mapreri propose text for membership process to add to KB page (carried over)
[16:20] <ddstreet> #subtopic mapreri upload (more of) all the tools (carried over, in progress)
[16:20] <ddstreet> #action mapreri upload (more of) all the tools (carried over, in progress)
[16:20] <meetingology> ACTION: mapreri upload (more of) all the tools (carried over, in progress)
[16:20] <ddstreet> i assume carry over for that and the next one
[16:20] <ddstreet> #subtopic mapreri fix lintian to not complain about ~bpo suffix (https://bugs.debian.org/1001399)
[16:20] <ddstreet> lintian isn't done yet is it?
[16:20] <mapreri> mh is taht miissing still?
[16:20] <mapreri> the one about uploading the tools
[16:21] <mapreri> probably mh
[16:21] <mapreri> there are a couple to update at the very least, so just leave it there sure
[16:21] <mapreri> I'll get to it rsn
[16:21] <ddstreet> ack
[16:21] <ddstreet> yeah no hurry, we can leave it or drop it whenver
[16:21] <mapreri> I think lechner pretty much ignored that bug, I'll poke him on irc later
[16:21] <ddstreet> i suspect it'll be a never-ending process of keeping the tools updated
[16:22] <mapreri> that's the point :)
[16:22] <ddstreet> :)
[16:22] <ddstreet> ok i'll action the lintian one too for now
[16:22] <ddstreet> #action mapreri fix lintian to not complain about ~bpo suffix (https://bugs.debian.org/1001399)
[16:22] <meetingology> ACTION: mapreri fix lintian to not complain about ~bpo suffix (https://bugs.debian.org/1001399)
[16:23] <mapreri> ah, I see now that lechner did raise some points about it mh
[16:23] <mapreri> I'll follow up
[16:23] <ddstreet> we have unassigned actions too, i'll go thru them, if anyone wants to take any of them (or has completed any) please speak up, otherwise i'll just re-action them
[16:23] <ddstreet> #subtopic (unassigned) define details on handling members/leads who are no longer participating (carried over)
[16:24] <mapreri> that should likely come after the membership process above
[16:24] <ddstreet> #action (unassigned) define details on handling members/leads who are no longer participating (carried over)
[16:24] <meetingology> ACTION: (unassigned) define details on handling members/leads who are no longer participating (carried over)
[16:24] <ddstreet> #subtopic (unassigned) define process/procedure for adding new members (carried over)
[16:24] <mapreri> mh
[16:24] <mapreri> how is that any different than "propose text for membership process to add to KB page" ?
[16:25] <ddstreet> probably not really different
[16:25] <mapreri> drop it?
[16:25] <ddstreet> yeah, i think it came up from concerns about non-participating DMB members...but it definitely should just be part of the whole 'membership process'
[16:25] <ddstreet> ack to dropping it
[16:26] <mapreri> non-partecipating members is the one before, which is fine to leave separate so we make sure it's included
[16:26] <ddstreet> ah right ok
[16:26] <mapreri> this current one looks just a duplicate, however :)
[16:26] <ddstreet> yeah definitely :)
[16:26] <mapreri> pls nobody disappear until we have the text in place :3
[16:27] <ddstreet> lol
[16:27] <ddstreet> maybe we should remove this unassigned item and update the action you have to specify 'including non-participating'
[16:27] <ddstreet> does seem like just a subset of the process action
[16:27] <mapreri> as you'd like
[16:28] <ddstreet> ack, yeah just administriva details - i'll update next mtg's agenda with them folded togehter
[16:28] <ddstreet> #subtopic (unassigned) get DEB_VENDOR=ubuntu dch --bpo to DTRT pls (carried over)
[16:28] <ddstreet> don't think this is done?
[16:28] <mapreri> nope
[16:28] <ddstreet> #action (unassigned) get DEB_VENDOR=ubuntu dch --bpo to DTRT pls (carried over)
[16:28] <meetingology> ACTION: (unassigned) get DEB_VENDOR=ubuntu dch --bpo to DTRT pls (carried over)
[16:28] <mapreri> and nobody likes dechange's code, so it'll likely stay there for a while :3
[16:28] <ddstreet> #subtopic (unassigned) look at reviewer tooling such as 'queue' or other tools for reviewing/accepting/rejecting uploads, and closing the corresponding bugs
[16:29] <ddstreet> i think this is an important one we should get assigned either now, or next mtg
[16:29] <mapreri> looking at my own todo list, I'd rather not take this one myself, sorry
[16:29] <ddstreet> ok
[16:30] <ddstreet> teward you have time? if not we can carry it to next mtg
[16:30] <ddstreet> assign it then
[16:30] <ddstreet> ok let's just carry it
[16:30] <ddstreet> #action (unassigned) look at reviewer tooling such as 'queue' or other tools for reviewing/accepting/rejecting uploads, and closing the corresponding bugs
[16:30] <meetingology> ACTION: (unassigned) look at reviewer tooling such as 'queue' or other tools for reviewing/accepting/rejecting uploads, and closing the corresponding bugs
[16:31] <ddstreet> #subtopic make sure wiki page includes requirement to add LP:# tag in backport changelog
[16:31] <ddstreet> i haven't actually checked this
[16:31] <mapreri> it's not there
[16:31] <ddstreet> ok i'll take it, should be a quick change
[16:31] <mapreri> ack
[16:31] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet make sure wiki page includes requirement to add LP:# tag in backport changelog
[16:31] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet make sure wiki page includes requirement to add LP:# tag in backport changelog
[16:31] <ddstreet> ok that's all the action items!
[16:31] <mapreri> alright
[16:31] <ddstreet> let's move to AOB?
[16:32] <mapreri> yes pls
[16:32] <ddstreet> #topic AOB
[16:32] <mapreri> Q:
[16:32] <mapreri> do we want to enforce bugs also for trivial updates of already backported things?
[16:33] <mapreri> Case that happened: a guy already had their bpo approved and already there.  they uploaded an updated that I accidentally noticed the other day, and after looking at it, it just felt fine to approve it…  but there wasn't a bug.  tbh this felt mostly "fine" to me, but perhaps we want more tracking for some reason?
[16:33] <ddstreet> i think we dont need them if it's trivial...but if the reviewer rejects, the rejection comment should probably ask for a bug opened to discuss it
[16:33] <mapreri> s/an updated/an update/
[16:33] <mapreri> the rejection case sounds fair, yep
[16:34] <teward> i got called to fix something sorry
[16:34] <ddstreet> yeah basically i think we agree, ok to upload without a bug for simple backports, we can request a bug if we have any concerns, yeah?
[16:34] <teward> ddstreet: for super simple i agree, for anything that requires any deviation from 'simple' then it needs a bug
[16:34] <teward> my 2 cents
[16:34] <mapreri> k.  do we want to make this written, or just keep it as a tribal knowledge, so people don't get over-excited of skipping bugs?
[16:34] <teward> i'd keep it as tribal knowledge
[16:35] <teward> because we don't want to *encourage* skipping the processes
[16:35] <teward> or make people think that 'what's simple to them is actually a simple case that doesn't need a bpo bug"
[16:35] <ddstreet> well, that leaves it ambigous for reviewers as well
[16:35] <ddstreet> i'd say we work out specific wording for an 'acceptable' no-bug backport?
[16:35] <teward> agreed
[16:36] <teward> and potentially detail some examples
[16:36] <ddstreet> like 'if there are no code changes and the package is already in the target backport pocket' or something like that?
[16:36] <teward> > if there are no code changes
[16:36] <teward> that's where i start saying "Define code changes"
[16:36] <mapreri> that sounds like a job for another #action to propose a fine wording.  The term "trivial" is clearly too ambiguous too
[16:36] <ddstreet> should we work out the specific wording on ML? I can start a thread...I just started my other mtg, so my attention is divided now :(
[16:36] <teward> yes lets start on specific wording on the ML
[16:36] <mapreri> yeah
[16:36] <ddstreet> yep definitely 'trivial' can mean different things :)
[16:37] <teward> i'm diverted to my FT job because somehting's on 'fire'
[16:37] <ddstreet> #action ddstreet start thread on ML to clarify wording for no-bug-required backports
[16:37] <meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet start thread on ML to clarify wording for no-bug-required backports
[16:37] <mapreri> teward's job is clearly too hot, being on fire so often /o\
[16:37] <ddstreet> lol
[16:37] <teward> lol
[16:37] <ddstreet> yeah
[16:37] <ddstreet> i hope you have a fireproof suit teward
[16:37] <teward> mapreri: not my fault that the one team that has yielded their stuff to IT at my FT job are all using legacy/EOL crap
[16:37] <teward> literally EOL crap that i'm having to use bits of my UA-I seats for temporarily >.>
[16:37] <teward> (8.04 anyone?)
[16:38] <teward> (that's the oldest i'm currently porting stuff to a 20.04 system for)
[16:38] <mapreri> I knoe the fealing, having inherited a bunch of 14.04 myself... or so I though but at least it doesn't get to single-digit releases
[16:38] <teward> ddstreet: i'm literally fireproof now heh
[16:38] <teward> mapreri: two 12.04s, six 14.04s, one 8.04
[16:38] <teward> but i digress
[16:38] <mapreri> yep
[16:39] <mapreri> alright, ddstreet: let's close up? :)
[16:39] <teward> the old stuff is breaking so i keep having to move things into emergency migration mode
[16:39] <teward> yep yep
[16:39] <ddstreet> sounds good, last call for anything else?
[16:39] <ddstreet> 5...
[16:39] <ddstreet> 4...
[16:39] <ddstreet> 3...
[16:39] <ddstreet> 2...
[16:39] <teward> give coffee?
[16:39] <teward> :P
[16:39] <ddstreet> 1...
[16:39] <ddstreet> #endmeeting
[16:39] <meetingology> Meeting ended at 16:39:48 UTC.  Minutes at https://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2022/ubuntu-meeting.2022-01-26-16.04.moin.txt
[16:39] <teward> (no other buisness from me)
[16:39] <mapreri> ty both, o/
[16:39] <ddstreet> thanks all!
[16:40] <teward> thank you!
[21:49]  * genii sweeps up and washes the coffeepot
[22:40] <nicoz> o/
[22:55] <nicoz> genii: Don’t drink too many cups of coffee, which are not good
[22:56] <nicoz> :P
[23:04] <nicoz> Wasn’t there supposed to be a meeting right now?


[01:24] <ali1234> ok how do i erase a blu ray rewritable disc?
[01:31]  * hamitron listens with interest
[01:31] <hamitron> ali1234, did you find out elsewhere?
[01:33] <ali1234> according to a random forum post k3b can do it
[01:33] <ali1234> i reported a bug against brasero, which claims to do it, then doesn't
[01:37] <ali1234> k3b also failed to format it
[01:38] <ali1234> then it crashed
[01:38] <ali1234> apparently you don't need to erase blu ray, you just overwrite it
[01:39] <ali1234> we shall see
[01:54] <hamitron> :)
[01:54] <hamitron> o/
[03:48] <CyborgSmurf> Hi, how do I compile a tar.gz file?
[03:48] <Azelphur> you don't compile a .tar.gz file, a .tar.gz is an archive
[03:48] <Azelphur> much like a zip, or a rar.
[03:48] <CyborgSmurf> Azelphur: so what do I do with it?
[03:49] <Azelphur> how am I supposed to know? I can't see whats in it o.O
[03:49] <Azelphur> extract the files?
[03:49] <Azelphur> lol
[03:50] <CyborgSmurf> Azelphur: okay to be more specific, it is a rDDrace mod for teeworlds...
[03:50] <CyborgSmurf> Azelphur: and yes, I have extracted it
[03:50] <Azelphur> according to it's github, that mod is deprecated and not supported anymore and you should use a different thing?
[03:52] <CyborgSmurf> Azelphur: so it doesn't work?
[03:52] <Azelphur> no idea if it works, but the developer says not to use it any more
[03:53] <Azelphur> CyborgSmurf: https://github.com/ravomavain/rDDRace
[03:54] <CyborgSmurf> Azelphur: bummer. Okay so now I have the XXL...mod instead. I have extracted it, now what do I do? There are no descriptions in the readme file
[03:55] <Azelphur> can you give me the link? I'll take a look
[03:55] <CyborgSmurf> https://github.com/XXLTomate/XXLDDRace/downloads
[03:57] <Azelphur> type "make build" in terminal
[03:58] <Azelphur> that may get it
[04:01] <CyborgSmurf> how do I do "make build"? (new at this)
[04:01] <Azelphur> in a terminal, in the same directory that you extracted it to
[04:05] <CyborgSmurf> hmm... It says make: ./bam: Command not found make: *** [clean] Error 127
[04:06] <Azelphur> CyborgSmurf: no idea then, it doesn't build like most things do, perhaps there's some info in it's docs/ folder, or some documentation on it's website you could find/read
[04:07] <CyborgSmurf> Azelphur: thanks alot anyway :)
[04:07] <Azelphur> yw
[06:31] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Quick Ubuntu Accomplishments Update - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/04/04/quick-ubuntu-accomplishments-update/
[07:04] <MooDoo> morning all
[07:06] <DJones> Morning
[07:06] <StaffRingedSeal> mm
[07:09] <AlanBell> morning
[07:16] <diplo> Morning all
[07:56] <czajkowski> morning
[07:57] <MartijnVdS> \o
[07:58] <MooDoo> morning czajkowski MartijnVdS
[07:59] <MartijnVdS> moo
[08:13] <JamesTait> There's snow day like Wednesday - good morning all! :D
[08:21] <popey> Morning
[08:21] <popey> got a kinect as a present, plugged in and xbox has died ☹
[08:21] <christel> happy birthday popey :)
[08:21] <diplo> heh happy bday popey and I've heard of that lot's before
[08:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> happy birthday popey is it a big one?
[08:21] <diplo> It's why I held off getting one
[08:22] <popey> http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a295277/kinect-breaking-older-xbox-360-models.html
[08:22] <popey> thanks everyone :D
[08:23] <MooDoo> Happy birthday popey :D
[08:23] <bigcalm> Morning peeps :)
[08:23] <bigcalm> Yay, sleet
[08:23] <MooDoo> morning bigcalm
[08:24] <MooDoo> ehite bank hols?
[08:24] <bigcalm> And the wind is driving it sideways
[08:24] <MooDoo> glad i'm in the car and not on the motorbike!
[08:24]  * Laney has to get n the bike in a sec
[08:24] <Laney> :(
[08:26] <bigcalm> Humm, my machine didn't like being hybernated 3 nights in a row
[08:28] <bigcalm> Or hibernated
[08:29] <gord> when i suspend my machine for the night, i will now yell "entering hyberspace!"
[08:29] <MooDoo> i never hibernate....
[08:30] <sagaci> I've never used hibernate or suspend on ubuntu
[08:31] <sagaci> I'm quite ok to reboot
[08:31] <oimon> popey, how broken?
[08:31] <oimon> flames coming out?
[08:34] <popey> red ring
[08:35] <czajkowski> popey: happy birthday!
[08:37] <popey> thanks ☺
[08:37] <MartijnVdS> popey: Happy birthday!
[08:38] <MooDoo> bloomin eck it's my birthday next week :S
[08:42] <DJones> \o/ The real Myrtti is back
[08:42] <Myrtti> :-(
[08:42] <Myrtti> I liked being a seal
[08:42] <Myrtti> seals are nice
[08:43] <bigcalm> That reminds me of a rude joke
[08:43] <bigcalm> But it's not for here
[08:43] <Myrtti> spare me, I had a rude awakening with a locksmith ringing the door bell and coming in with master key to check my intercom
[08:44] <bigcalm> :(
[08:44] <bigcalm> So much for privacy
[08:44] <bigcalm> in your own home
[08:45] <MooDoo> well the government decided not to snoop of your internet access didn't they ;)
[08:45] <MooDoo> what more do you want lol
[08:46] <gord> merry popeymass to all
[08:46] <popey> bless you
[08:47] <bigcalm> Achoo
[08:47] <bigcalm> popey: happy old day :)
[08:48] <gord> i checked, no one really interesting was born today.. robert downey jr and david blane is your lot really
[08:49] <bigcalm> Heh
[09:02] <oimon> i seem to be addicted to drawception, thanks popey...i don't even have a graphics tablet either
[09:18] <czajkowski> gord: to start a pm in xchat do you just /msg usernick ?
[09:18] <gord> czajkowski, yup, or right click their name and "open query window"
[09:19] <czajkowski> gord: thansk
[09:27] <bigcalm> czajkowski: what has driven you to x-chat?
[09:29] <czajkowski> not me
[09:29] <czajkowski> just trying to help someone out
[09:30] <gord> bigcalm, its going to be horrible in wolverhampton tomorrow isn't it? :(
[09:34] <MooDoo> gord: rain
[09:35] <dwatkins> We had snow yesterday here in Edinburgh, it's just drizzly and windy now.
[09:40] <diplo> We had sun yesterday for much of the day, then a little drizzle last night. Grey but cold out there now and really looks like a down pour on it's way
[09:44] <MooDoo> diplo: was a downpour here this morning.
[09:44] <diplo> More tea!
[09:44] <MooDoo> ooooo it's actually snowing in nottingham
[09:44] <diplo> Wonder whether I need to put weight back on, fed up of feeling cold
[09:44] <diplo> :P
[09:45] <MooDoo> diplo: isn't 25 stone enough? ;)
[09:46] <diplo> Was close at one point
[09:50] <bigcalm> gord: it's always horrible in Wolverhampton
[09:50] <bigcalm> gord: bring a brolly, or a decent coat
[09:51] <bigcalm> Out the window this morning: http://instagr.am/p/I_NpojLeaY/
[10:01] <davmor2> morning all
[10:01] <davmor2> czajkowski: prod
[10:02] <czajkowski> davmor2: herrrro
[10:02] <davmor2> MooDoo: 'Ow am ya mucka?
[10:03] <davmor2> bigcalm: early night tonight then?
[10:06] <MooDoo> davmor2: crackin mate.....
[10:06] <bigcalm> davmor2: yes. Will be off by 9 or 9.30
[10:06] <bigcalm> And good morning
[10:06] <bigcalm> And I'll be eating at home more going out
[10:06] <bigcalm> Pennies are tight
[10:06] <davmor2> bigcalm: you want me to set an alarm so you don't stay all night :D
[10:07] <bigcalm> :P
[10:15] <gbyers_> everyone else sees the error message of vlc on the stream
[10:21] <bigcalm> Wonder what that was about
[10:39] <oimon> popey, did you buy your xbox from a real shop?
[10:39] <oimon> or ebay
[10:52] <dogmatic69> Hi all, I have set up a server at home for php dev, and installed bind9 on it. I set my pc to use the dev server as the DNS but /etc/resolv.conf is reset on reboot.
[10:52] <dogmatic69> where is the permanent place to do this?
[10:53] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: if you're doing local dev, it would be simpler just to edit /etc/hosts
[10:53] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: running your own DNS can be a little ott
[10:53] <dogmatic69> how so?
[10:53] <bigcalm> Erm, sudo nano -w /etc/hosts
[10:53] <bigcalm> ?
[10:54] <dogmatic69> how is it simpler
[10:54] <dogmatic69> using /etc/hosts requires changing for each site. I use something.dev
[10:54] <bigcalm> You don't have to worry about setting up DNS entries and the faff that can entail
[10:54] <dogmatic69> with the dns I have *.dev caught and served through the dev sever and anything else passed on to a proper dns
[10:54] <bigcalm> Sure, but it's not that much work
[10:55] <dogmatic69> there is one dns entry, its all set up and working.
[10:55] <bigcalm> Have a look at resolvconf
[10:55] <bigcalm> (to answer your question)
[10:55] <JGJones> /etc/hosts - you just put in a line like so <IP_ADDRESS> something.dev something2.dev something3.dev
[10:56] <bigcalm> There's more than one way to strangle a budgie
[10:56] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: I thought the DNS would be a pain, was the second time I have tried setting it up. took about 1h and its all good now, much less work than /etc/hosts in the long run. :)
[10:56] <bigcalm> Really?
[10:56] <bigcalm> Fair enough :)
[10:56] <dogmatic69> i have been using /etc/hosts for years, and now has 100's of lines
[10:56] <dogmatic69> its a mess
[10:57] <bigcalm> Ones mileage may vary :)
[10:57] <JGJones> when a hammer won't do, there's always a mallet ;-)
[10:57] <dogmatic69> :)
[10:57] <bigcalm> I keep my hosts file quite organised, works for me
[10:57] <dogmatic69> also, I will be changing the router dns to use the dev server so I can access the *.dev sites from any computer in the house
[10:58] <dogmatic69> with /etc/hosts that means maintaining on each computer
[10:58] <JGJones> no no you're making it too simple now! I demand that you use /etc/hosts and rsync!
[10:58] <dogmatic69> :D
[10:58]  * dogmatic69 used rsync for the first time yesterday
[10:59] <bigcalm> I think it might be lunch time
[10:59] <dogmatic69> no, 1min
[10:59] <bigcalm> Damn you!
[10:59] <DJones> bigcalm: You work from home, anytime is lunchtime
[10:59] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: awww :)
[10:59] <bigcalm> Right, now it's lunch time
[11:00] <bigcalm> DJones: that may be the case, but I still try and have structure in my day
[11:00] <dogmatic69> anyone know how to disable the retarded windows like error thing in 12.04
[11:01] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: poke popey
[11:01] <dogmatic69> I liked 10.10, when things crashed they just closed and you were free to open it again. now you have to confirm error reports and lame problem detection windows
[11:02] <dogmatic69> besides the fact that every time it says 'cant submit error, you running weird apps'
[11:04] <MartijnVdS> I think disabling apport would work
[11:04] <MartijnVdS> check /etc/default/apport
[11:10] <davmor2> bigcalm: pennies tighter, that be a wedding in the near future then :D
[11:40] <davmor2> popey: Hippo birdy 2 ewes, hippo birdy 2 ewes, hippo birdy dear popey, hippo birdy 2ewes
[11:43]  * diplo phones asylum for davmor2
[11:45] <DJones> diplo: I think its a zoo he needs, not an asylum
[11:45] <diplo> :D
[11:46] <dogmatic69> does anyone know what file this is changing http://tinyurl.com/cafkwbm
[11:46] <dogmatic69> I need to do that in terminal :/
[11:46] <dwatkins> Do what, exactly, dogmatic69? There are several options there.
[11:46] <diplo> resolv.conf
[11:47] <diplo> ?
[11:47] <dogmatic69> no
[11:47] <dogmatic69> dwatkins: change the dns
[11:47] <dogmatic69> diplo: resolv.conf is wiped on reboot
[11:47] <shauno> it should be going via resolvconf, and dropping something under /etc/resolvconf/
[11:47] <dwatkins> the DNS what, server used?
[11:47] <dogmatic69> besides, that box does not use resolv.conf
[11:47] <dwatkins> it should be coming from your DHCP server ;)
[11:47] <shauno> (man 8 resolvconf, the resolv.conf file is autogenerated from a pile of files now)
[11:48] <dogmatic69> dwatkins: I am with sky and have a lame router, cant change the dns on it
[11:48] <diplo> dogmatic69, http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/man8/resolvconf.8.html
[11:48] <dwatkins> ah ok dogmatic69
[11:48] <diplo> For maverick but I'm guessing still the same ( I've not done it this way )
[11:49] <dogmatic69> diplo: been reading lots of man pages, cant see how that helps
[11:49] <diplo> They have either added or i didn't know about it dns-nameservers into the interfaces file
[11:49] <davmor2> dogmatic69: is the system you want using this dns configured in network manager to use the dns on the server or the dns given it by dhcp?  if it is dhcp then it might be getting the routers dns setting not the server if that makes sense
[11:49] <diplo>   dns-nameservers <IP_ADDRESS> <IP_ADDRESS>
[11:49] <diplo> Under eth0
[11:49] <diplo> Or which ever card
[11:50] <dogmatic69> ye, I added that to /etc/networing/interfaces and it does nothing
[11:50] <dogmatic69> after the change to the box i pased, /etc/networking/interfaces is blank
[11:50] <dogmatic69> so that is not it
[11:52] <diplo> Could try in #ubuntu-server ?
[11:52] <diplo> Guys may have more of an idea on cli
[11:53] <diplo> Not had to do much else than resolv.conf before I'm afraid so haven't come across this issue
[11:54] <dogmatic69> cool, will give them a go
[12:04] <bigcalm> Goodness me, I need sleep
[12:06] <gord> you work from home, declare lunchtime cancelled in favour of nap time
[12:06] <bigcalm> I would have, if I hadn't just returned from lunch
[12:06] <bigcalm> Yay for long weekend, boo for short weeks. I have too much to do
[12:07] <bigcalm> I'm not staying out all night tonight, so hopefully won't be a zombie tomorrow
[12:07] <gord> pretty sure you said that last time
[12:07] <bigcalm> Yep :)
[12:07] <bigcalm> It's true this time though
[12:07] <gord> suuuure
[12:08] <gord> how would you prefer me to mock you tomorrow? "i tooooooooooold you so!" or just some sort of i told you so dance
[12:08] <bigcalm> Haha
[12:08] <christel> is it pub o clock yet?
[12:09] <bigcalm> A dance please
[12:09] <bigcalm> christel: is it 8pm somewhere in the world?
[12:09] <christel> dunno, is that how pub o clock is determined?
[12:10] <bigcalm> Why stick to just one timezone?
[12:11] <dogmatic69> bah. now my ssh is broken
[12:13] <dogmatic69> ssh to a server is not picking up my pub key, this was fine yesterday. -v option just shows it skipping past all the keys
[12:13] <dogmatic69> anything I could look for?
[12:18] <directhex> -vvv
[12:43] <meet> will fifa 12 work on ubuntu through wine?
[12:49] <DJones> meet: http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=24481
[12:50] <DJones> Seems like it should work, but as ever, everybodys systems can be different, so what works for one person, might not work for another
[13:24] <sagaci> DJones: that's the beauty of wine
[14:00] <bigcalm> Getting old
[14:00] <bigcalm> We're now members of the National Trust
[14:02] <MooDoo> bigcalm: how old?
[14:02] <bigcalm> I'm 33 this year, she's 39 end of this month
[14:02] <MooDoo> 33 pah! i'm 40 a week on sunday :S
[14:02] <bigcalm> Oops, she's 40 at the end of the month
[14:03] <bigcalm> That could have got me into trouble :)
[14:03] <MooDoo> heheh
[14:03] <MooDoo> my wife's birthday is same day so i can't forget lol
[14:03] <bigcalm> I still haven't sorted out a _fantastic_ present :S
[14:04] <bigcalm> Got a couple of things and we're travelling to Northern Ireland
[14:14] <diplo> bigcalm, Trouble I doubt ? A kiss maybe ?
[14:14] <diplo> Women like being called younger do they not
[14:15] <MartijnVdS> "Only 0x28!"
[14:15] <bigcalm> diplo: heh
[14:16] <bigcalm> diplo: she hates it when she is asked for proof of age
[14:17] <diplo> :)
[14:21] <bigcalm> Dropbox just increased my storage space
[14:22] <bigcalm> And I got an OSN about it!
[14:22] <Myrtti> my shell provider just installed ecryptfs-utils on the server I run irssi on ♥
[14:22] <Myrtti> now I just need to figure it out.
[14:38] <davmor2> MooDoo: how long did it take to find a woman who would look at you who had the same birthday?
[14:38] <bigcalm> Aww, bit mean that
[14:38] <MooDoo> davmor2: she can see????
[14:38] <MooDoo> davmor2: get this then, my son's birthday is 10 09 08 :)
[14:39] <MooDoo> davmor2: also my son and daughter have the same birthday too
[14:39] <MooDoo> so only 2 birthdays to remember in our house :S
[14:39] <davmor2> MooDoo: you just set up this up so you could remember birthdays didn't you
[14:39] <MooDoo> davmor2: er yeah :) lol
[14:40] <davmor2> MooDoo: haha
[14:40] <MooDoo> davmor2: i'm a toy boy, she's 20 mins older than me :D
[14:40] <davmor2> MooDoo: haha nice
[14:40] <bigcalm> Yay for toy boys
[14:41] <bigcalm> 7 years and 1 month between us :D
[14:42] <MooDoo> :D
[14:47] <Myrtti> crib robbery
[14:47] <MooDoo> lol
[14:50] <bigcalm> The older you get, the less it matters
[14:50] <MooDoo> yup
[14:55] <popey> Yo
[14:55] <bigcalm> It lives!
[14:56] <diplo> It's slightly tipsy ?
[14:56] <diplo> :P
[15:00] <davmor2> popey: hippo birdy dude
[15:07] <popey> thanks davmor2 !
[15:07] <bigcalm> popey: Hayley told me off
[15:09] <popey> haha
[15:27] <Laney> http://maps.stamen.com/watercolor/#13/51.5002/-0.1249
[15:27] <Laney> rather nice
[15:34] <bigcalm> Funky
[16:02] <dogmatic69> just after I reboot my server I cant ssh in, I get pub key denied. after a few minutes it works
[16:02] <dogmatic69> any idea what could be going on?
[16:02] <dwatkins> I concurr, Laney :)
[16:03] <MooDoo> ssh not started at the time your trying to ssh in?
[16:03] <MooDoo> fully
[16:03] <dogmatic69> how long does it take to start?
[16:03] <dogmatic69> it was about 5 minutes
[16:03] <Oli> dogmatic69: Can you log in via password within that time?
[16:04] <dogmatic69> Oli: like a good server admin, that is disabled :)
[16:04] <dwatkins> Perhaps the firewall only starts fully after everything else, and before that it's blocked the port
[16:04] <Oli> dogmatic69: Sure I wouldn't suggest leaving it on but it might help work out what's going on.
[16:04] <dogmatic69> Oli: before it was turned off, i belive it was working with pwd login
[16:05] <dogmatic69> believe*
[16:05] <Oli> dogmatic69: or making a secondary user that can't really do anything but log in, for testing.
[16:06] <Oli> dogmatic69: is the home under a different filesystem from /? Or encrypted?
[16:07] <dogmatic69> hmm, its encrypted
[16:09] <Oli> dogmatic69: you might benefit from moving your ssh key out into an unencrypted part. The wiki has a good solution: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SSH/OpenSSH/Keys#Troubleshooting
[16:09] <dogmatic69> Oli: which home were you talking about?
[16:10] <dogmatic69> ah, that is when it started working... when I took the kb and logged onto the actual server
[16:10] <dogmatic69> that unlocked the home folder.
[16:10] <Oli> Yup. Move your key out so SSH can access it and everything should start working :)
[16:11] <dogmatic69> nice, thanks
[16:11] <dogmatic69> I will try that one out
[19:23] <popey> hmmmm
[19:27] <MartijnVdS> hmmmmm?
[19:27] <TheOpenSourcerer> Things to make you go "hmmmmm"?
[19:27] <bigcalm_laptop> Evenin' all from Wolves LUG
[19:31] <daftykins> Wolves?
[19:55] <Seeker`> tis a popey !
[19:56] <madpup> Hi, can a 8400gs power a 3d desktop at 1080p?
[19:58] <popey> madpup: should do
[19:59] <daftykins> madpup: yeah, no problem. not so sure about HD playback on top of that though ;D
[19:59] <madpup> Cheers Popey/ dafty
[20:00] <madpup> need some cash so im flogging my 560ti and have a old gfx card to tide me over untill cash starts to come in again
[20:03] <madpup> Popey are you still using your Viglen mpc-l?
[20:05] <daftykins> :)
[20:06] <daftykins> i run a 560Ti back home
[20:06] <popey> madpup: nope
[20:06] <popey> well, I'm using it to consume space in a drawer
[20:07] <madpup> oh i just remembered you helped me get linux onto mine one years ago, hope i said 'thanks' at the time ;)
[20:07]  * bigcalm_laptop slurps his pint
[20:09] <madpup> im trying to kill off my windows addiction, again, and wont need the power anymore.............................................who am i kidding Diablo3 comes out next month :(.....................................
[20:15] <madpup> Bye all thanks for the advice


[22:17] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfconf 4.18.3 released @ http://www.mail-archive.com/xfce-announce@xfce.org/msg00894.html


[00:07] <Traveler> Hello Can0beans
[00:15] <Traveler> where's ChinnoDog's alarm clock now ?
[00:43] <jboyette> Good Evening everyone.
[12:57] <jedijf> MutantTurkey: PACS reminder
[13:44] <waltman> oh, is that today?
[13:44] <waltman> already?
[14:02] <MutantTurkey> waltman: yes
[14:02] <MutantTurkey> jedijf: yeah just got home, need to shower, eat, gotta submit some patches, email some people, i'll be down as quick as i can
[14:18] <waltman> I just finished breakfast.
[15:34] <MutantTurkey> gah running so behind, if i only had an i7 i could compile this crap faster D:
[16:17] <ChinnoDog> Those grow on trees now.
[22:18] <InHisName> hello, Awake now ChinnoDog ?
[23:49] <ChinnoDog> I am


[00:02] <zmoylan-pi> com.farnell.ie would be so... so... american... :-P
[01:38] <shauno> I think it should be com.ie.farnell, but that ship has sailed
[02:08] <Azelphur> http://pastebin.com/BBgutCEb wtf?
[02:08] <daftykins> it's a trap!
[02:08] <Azelphur> never thought I'd see such a daft error on Linux lol
[02:10] <shauno> heh, "danger will robinson, danger!"
[02:10] <daftykins> someone's replaced your 'cd' with a trick one
[02:11] <Azelphur> don't think so, it works fine before and after that
[02:11] <penguin42> oh that's impressive
[02:11] <shauno> or it's failed to write to ~/.bash_history
[02:11] <Azelphur> I see
[02:12] <daftykins> i found my nano_history owned by root today 0o
[02:25] <zmoylan-pi> type something nice for all the north korean hackers? :-)
[04:29] <zmoylan-pi> happy birds tweeting outside my window... probably leeching off my wifi... :-)
[05:32] <mappps> ;]
[08:40] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[08:54] <foobarry> 5h37 of deep sleep :D
[08:54] <foobarry> allegedly
[08:54] <foobarry> 8h of sleep
[10:14] <TheProphet[S]> Hi all, anyone else having problems logging into graphical mode due to systemd? I'm referring to the bug "starting version 219"
[10:15] <TheProphet[S]> Bug #1432171
[10:16] <ali1234> "starting version 219" is the very first thing systemd prints
[10:16] <ali1234> just because it is also the last thing you see does not mean systemd is the problem
[10:17] <TheProphet[S]> Ok, it's not my assessment, it's what cro said in comment #17
[10:18] <TheProphet[S]> He says that by going back to upstart everything works fine
[10:19] <TheProphet[S]> His solutions are: " Either replace the display manager startup scripts to work with `systemd`, or remove `systemd` and replace it with `upstart-sys`"
[10:33] <TheProphet[S]> Now I can't even see the tty properly
[10:39] <AndChat|336756> Can't see anything now, I can still ssh lickily
[10:45] <TheProphet[S]> Should I just purge xorg and nvidia drivers and try to start from scratch? Is that even the right way to start from scratch short of formatting?
[11:27] <TheProphet[S]> This graphical problems I'm having are a nightmare
[12:05] <mrindeed> help, my computer doesnt lock and i want to be the hibernate which i enabled to be remove from the menu
[12:21] <mrindeed> help, my computer doesnt lock
[13:55] <StevenR> anyone else running xubuntu?
[13:56] <StevenR> I've noticed that when I go to shutdown my laptop, if I click cancel, it still shuts down.
[13:56] <zmoylan-pi> o/
[13:57] <zmoylan-pi> just clicked cancel... ::waits::
[13:59] <zmoylan-pi> one hippopotamus... two hippopotamus... three hippopotamus...
[14:00] <zmoylan-pi> taps spot where i'd have a wrist watch if i wore one...
[14:00] <zmoylan-pi> nope, not happening here sorry...
[14:01] <zmoylan-pi> same for logout, other options?
[14:02] <ali1234> StevenR: that's odd, can you report it please
[14:02] <ali1234> where exactly did you click on cancel?
[14:02] <ali1234> also i assume 15.04
[14:03] <ali1234> trying it in a vm
[14:04] <ali1234> doesn't seem to do it here
[14:05] <zmoylan-pi> touchscreen or mouse/trackpad?
[14:06] <ali1234> doesn't do it on the login screen either (it has a different ui)
[14:07] <brobostigon> do we have an xmpp/jabber client for ubuntu touch?
[14:08] <StevenR> ali1234: using the latest LTS
[14:09] <StevenR> ok. Can no longer replicate it. hmmph.
[14:10] <ali1234> where exactly did you click cancel?
[14:10] <ali1234> there's multiple ways to shutdown the computer
[14:11] <zmoylan-pi> http://catb.org/jargon/html/D/dancing-frog.html :-)
[14:11] <StevenR> ali1234: I click the little power logo on the bar, select shutdown, hit cancel, the computer shuts down. At least, that's what happened. Doesn't happen now.
[14:12] <StevenR> ali1234: the little logo has other options, like about this computer
[14:12] <ali1234> on the bar or on the start menu?
[14:12] <StevenR> on the bar
[14:12] <ali1234> wait, latest LTS? so 14.04?
[14:12] <StevenR> yup
[14:13] <ali1234> okay i am looking at the wrong version then
[14:13] <ali1234> i don't have a vanilla 14.04
[14:15]  * zmoylan-pi just checked... is on 14.04 my kitchen laptop
[14:18] <ali1234> i can't see any similar reports
[14:25] <SuperEngineer> if one switches channel and one sees...
[14:25] <SuperEngineer> ali1234> on the bar or on the start menu?
 on the bar
[14:25] <SuperEngineer> ...one does tend to laugh
[14:25] <ali1234> xubuntu has a start menu...
[14:27] <SuperEngineer> [so do many otther other distros, I was reading "bar" as "pub", much better for the brain]
[15:18] <SuperEngineer> Looking at the /topic I see the beer train [RAT] is still prominent... that must be one one heck of a hangover!
[15:20]  * SuperEngineer is jealous
[16:16] <ali1234> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V-pxI8PlY0o#t=1080
[16:16] <ali1234> "proactive suggestions"
[16:17] <ali1234> "help the user find value in the store"
[16:17] <ali1234> "beautiful pictures"
[16:17] <ali1234> no, adverts, adverts, adverts... everywhere
[16:26] <zmoylan-pi> so buy the hardwarem pay for a commercial os and get stuffed with ads...
[16:26] <zmoylan-pi> hmmmmm..... how about no
[16:30] <zmoylan-pi> wow the lag on that stylus sucks
[16:31] <ali1234> does anyone know of a normal PC case like this: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/4-bay-25-qnap-ts-451s-nas-solution-with-intel-celeron-dual-core-cpu-1gb-ram-sata-6gb-s-2x-gigabit-la
[16:31] <ali1234> those are 2.5" bays
[16:31] <mappps> so cold
[16:31] <mappps> 25c
[16:31] <mappps> ;/
[17:25] <penguin42> 9c :-(
[17:28] <mattcarver> Hello there, is it possible to get a quick hand configuring my synaptics touchpad with Ubuntu 15.04
[17:29] <mattcarver> I would rather appreciate it
[17:52] <knightwise> mornin peeps
[18:24] <directhex> ali1234: a PC case with multiple hotswap 2.5" bays?
[18:24] <ali1234> which is the same size as that one, yes
[18:25] <ali1234> same form factor, but a standard PC that I can install whatever i want on
[18:26] <directhex> er... can't think of anything like that from any of the big players in cases
[18:26] <ali1234> and it doesn't have to be hotswap, just front accessible
[18:26] <OerHeks> nice, 4 x 2.5" in 5.25" space http://www.mypccase.com/icydotomb4x2.html
[18:26] <ali1234> yeah, seen those. so then i'd just need a case with 1x 5.25" bay and nothing else
[18:27] <OerHeks> Not sure you can hotswap in linux though
[18:27] <ali1234> you can
[18:27] <directhex> okay, THAT i can find you
[18:27] <directhex> the smallest possible case with a 5.25" external bay?
[18:27] <ali1234> i'm interested...
[18:28] <directhex> mATX okay, or you want ITX?
[18:29] <ali1234> whichever has the widest selection of motherboards available i guess
[18:29] <ali1234> whichever is most "standard"
[18:29] <directhex> mATX by a mile, but mATX is much larger
[18:30] <directhex> mini-ITX is 17x17cm, mATX is up to 24x24cm
[18:30] <ali1234> what about NUC?
[18:31] <directhex> nobody's going to put a 3.5" bay on a NUC
[18:31] <directhex> and the motherboard in a nuc isn't something you get control over
[18:31] <ali1234> :(
[18:31] <directhex> there are a *limited* number of has-a-cpu-socket mini-ITX boards
[18:31] <directhex> and all micro-ATX boards do
[18:32] <directhex> but let's take http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_0788.html as an example case
[18:32] <directhex> plus a motherboard from http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/ITX_Motherboards.html and the enclosure suggested by OerHeks
[18:34] <directhex> or http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_0874.html (available in a range of colours)
[18:34] <directhex> or http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_0849.html
[18:34] <directhex> most mini-ITX cases use laptop slimline optical drives, if any
[18:35] <ali1234> i'm going to want something that runs cool and silent too
[18:35] <directhex> how about a pony?
[18:35] <ali1234> i don't want any optical drive
[18:36] <directhex> http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_55245.html - passive cooling
[18:36] <directhex> ali1234: why do you think these cases have any 5.25" bays? just because you're looking to put 4x 2.5" bays in there, doesn't mean that's not why those cases have a 5.25" bay
[18:37] <ali1234> because they are designed for HTPCs
[18:37] <directhex> right
[18:38] <ali1234> i want to build a silent NAS with SSDs that can also run mythtv
[18:38] <ali1234> (backend not frontend)
[18:39] <directhex> okay. do it. i gave you three possible cases, and an array of motherboards
[18:42] <penguin42> ali1234: You can get the same CPUs as the NUCs on full size boards
[18:43] <directhex> yeah, that works too
[18:43] <directhex> you'll need to spend the time checking clearance heights for cases vs coolers
[18:44] <penguin42> directhex: Well, the passive ones you suggested are good - I've got the older MSI c834
[18:44] <penguin42> oops, c847
[18:44] <directhex> i am on an MSI kick right now, due to the "Linux out of the box" guarantees
[18:45] <penguin42> directhex: Well, in the end it's pretty much an Intel chip slapped on the board - not much else there
[18:45] <directhex> penguin42: ethernet? wifi? vaguely non-broken firmware?
[18:46] <penguin42> directhex: Yes (RTL), no, vaguely
[18:46] <directhex> penguin42: i mean in general
[18:46] <directhex> penguin42: if i buy a gigabyte & the firmware has "boot windows & only windows" breakage, their tech support people will tell me to take a flying leap
[18:47] <penguin42> directhex: Really it has that kind of breakage?
[18:48] <directhex> penguin42: such breakages exist
[18:49] <penguin42> directhex: Yeh, but they are rare and I've found firmware screwups on pretty much everything. TBH the firmware in the MSI doesn't do that much for me, it works but I had some startup problems when I first got it that I'd guess at firmware
[18:49] <directhex> http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/20187.html
[18:49] <penguin42> yeh, I remember that one
[18:50] <directhex> also, NUCs had the same issue in the shipping firmware
[18:51] <directhex> had to update to $latest to boot non-windows
[18:53] <penguin42> that does suck, I expect more from Intel, but was it a general non-windows or was it just a screwup?
[18:53] <penguin42> that's very different from that Lenovo one
[18:53] <directhex> in 99.9% of cases, it's screwups
[18:53] <directhex> even the lenovo one was a screwup
[18:53] <directhex> we have 40 years of bad BIOS bugs, and the workarounds/fixes to them. we only have a few years of bad UEFI bugs, and the workarounds/fixes to them
[18:53] <penguin42> yeh but that was a specific string compare screwup, as opposed to say a device setup that doesn't work with some kernels
[18:54] <directhex> basically, firmware developers are totally terrible at their jobs
[18:54] <penguin42> I agree on that
[18:54] <penguin42> my main desktop I have to pass a kernel parameter to get modern kernels to boot on it because of some interrupt remapping kernel
[18:54] <directhex> the NUC it was also a string compare error iirc
[18:54] <ali1234> maybe i should just buy the QNAP and use their virtualization thing
[18:54] <directhex> i.e. it was hardcoded to only boot Windows Boot Manager from the fixed disk
[18:55] <penguin42> directhex: Ah ok, thats dumb
[18:56] <directhex> so it would install, but not boot, linuxes (linuxorum?) in EFI mode. fine with BIOS emulation
[18:58] <penguin42> directhex: The EFI boot process isn't exactly simple
[18:59] <directhex> yeah... but the BIOS one is total nonsense in 2015
[19:00] <directhex> "hello, i am an 8088, i will now boot 16-bit 8088 machine code from the first 448 bytes of the first ATA device on the first ISA bus"
[19:00] <penguin42> yeh, technology
[19:02] <MartijnVdS> directhex: ATA drive? Hah!
[19:02] <penguin42> directhex: It's all actually a lot scarier than that; things like figuring out how many CPUs you've got involves reading values from the RTC
[19:02] <penguin42> all insane
[19:02] <penguin42> all reasonable bits of evolution at the time
[19:03] <penguin42> DOS mode FP exceptions, A20 lines etc etc
[19:03] <directhex> my 6-core 64-bit Haswell-EP is still also an 8088, just in case I want to boot it in the manner of my ancestors
[19:04] <directhex> er, Haswell-E. Haswell-EP is xeon
[19:04] <penguin42> yep
[19:05] <directhex> i expect that to go away, with windows 10 basically killing CSM
[19:06] <penguin42> directhex: It depends, if they still have to support it working in VMs they might keep the hardware
[19:07] <directhex> penguin42: well Windows 10 logo certified hardware basically won't have it
[19:07] <penguin42> directhex: 'wont have it' - you mean it wont have bios compatible boot ?
[19:08] <directhex> yup
[19:09] <penguin42> right, that's just the bios module
[19:46] <ali1234> what exactly is the reason that xeons exist?
[19:46] <ali1234> ECC support?
[19:46] <penguin42> ali1234: ECC, and multisocket on some of them
[19:46] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: more cores per package, ECC, Registered, more money per customer?
[22:14] <directhex> ali1234: reasons already given. multi-socket, ECC, more cache, more cores
[22:14] <directhex> my board takes an 18-core chip
[22:15] <penguin42> directhex: What board is that?
[22:15] <directhex> penguin42: an X99 board.
[22:18] <penguin42> and it lets you take the E5- series Xeons?
[22:18] <directhex> yes
[22:20] <directhex> my old PC would take xeons too. if it can't take a xeon, it's for plebs!
[22:20] <penguin42> interesting
[22:28] <directhex> when intel started doing core i3/5/7, i7 was "basically a xeon", with the i7-9xx range. but people moaned about price, and they shipped the "slightly faster i5" series, the "i7-8xx". it's continued to this day - there's "i'm not a xeon, honest" i7's, and "don't look too closely, or you'll see i'm an i5" i7's
[22:30] <directhex> so socket 1366 was used for i7 and uniprocessor xeon; 2011 was used for i7 and uniprocessor xeon; 2011-3 is used for i7 and uniprocessor xeon
[22:31] <penguin42> but aren't the 18 processor beasts multisocket only with different busses (CSI?)
[22:34] <directhex> X58, X79 and X99 (the relevant chipsets for the above sockets) use the same bus as xeon. hence supporting xeons :p
[22:35] <directhex> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_X99
[22:38] <penguin42> directhex: What's confusing me is that shows DMI2.0 as the interface from the Xeon, where as I thought Xeons used QuickPath
[22:38]  * penguin42 is just reading http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/datasheets/xeon-e5-v3-datasheet-vol-1.pdf
[22:40] <penguin42> ah, it has both
[22:41] <directhex> QPI for communication between sockets
[22:42] <directhex> DMI for communication to motherboard chipset
[22:42] <directhex> my old X58 system was QPI for both
[22:42] <directhex> well, except for being uniproc
[22:42] <directhex> but still, QPI for the chipset comms
[22:42] <penguin42> directhex: Interesting, I hadn't realised this
[22:43]  * penguin42 observes from that doc that 'Enable Safe Mode boot' and 'Enable Intel Trusted Execution Technology Agent' are pins on the chip
[22:48] <ali1234> they should just make one CPU, it would be so much easier
[22:51] <penguin42> ah, the E7's still have a different socket
[22:53] <penguin42> hmm, although hmm,
[22:54] <penguin42> that data sheet says the E7v2 socket is 'Socket R1' LGA2011-1
[22:54] <penguin42> so that's still the same?
[22:54] <ali1234> okay next stupid question: why do they need so many different sockets? they all look pretty much the same
[22:54] <directhex> ali1234: It's Complicated
[22:55] <penguin42> ali1234: It sounds like the answer is they're slowly coming to not having many different sockets
[22:57] <directhex> ali1234: but, in essence, it's down to how many physical connections the chip needs to the motherboard - for example, an i7-5930k can drive 40 PCIe lanes, an i7-4790K can drive 16
[22:57] <penguin42> and also you need more pins to get more power into the chip
[22:57] <directhex> the i7-4790k can do dual-channel memory, the i7-5930k can do quad channel
[22:58] <directhex> in server chips, some pins are also for inter-socket links
[23:00] <directhex> IBM POWER8 has 15823 pins (!)
[23:01] <ali1234> whaaaaat?!?
[23:01] <penguin42> directhex: But your observation, which is interesting, is that now they're just using the same sockets on the xeons as the i7's and just ignoring the inter-cpu links
[23:01] <penguin42> directhex: I bet 90% of those are power/ground
[23:02] <directhex> penguin42: not quite 90%, but good guess
[23:02] <directhex> 6000 for power, 7700 for ground
[23:02] <penguin42> not far off :-)
[23:02] <ali1234> http://www.v3.co.uk/IMG/964/287964/ibm-power8-540x334.jpg?1429512233
[23:02] <directhex> ali1234: :D
[23:03] <shauno> 2099 for signals, apparently.  that's still quite a crazy amount
[23:03] <penguin42> they look quite boring compared to the old MCMs
[23:04] <penguin42> they also have to be careful just on layout - there's only so many pins you can get out through a PCB from teh centre of a package like that
[23:05] <ali1234> well, i would guess that's another reason why so many are power/ground
[23:05] <directhex> penguin42: not if you go deeper!
[23:05] <ali1234> since you have to route them on the die as well
[23:05] <penguin42> directhex: There'sa  limit to how many layers you can sanely do as well
[23:05] <ali1234> yep, power and ground will probably get a layer each
[23:05] <directhex> for ali1234 , that's another major issue - a socket with more pins needs more layers, and more layers are MUCH more expensive
[23:06] <shauno> aren't power8 usually used for supercomputers?  I think they can probably budget a few extra layers :)
[23:06] <penguin42> directhex: Yeh and they start to even get heavy when you get really thick boards - one place I worked did a backplane that was getting silly
[23:07] <penguin42> shauno: They're also available as servers - I think 2Uish
[23:07] <directhex> they're billing power8 as a cloud server chip
[23:07] <penguin42> directhex: By putting the word 'cloud' on the billing
[23:07] <directhex> :D
[23:07] <penguin42> shauno: http://www.tyan.com/campaign/openpower/
[23:08] <shauno> I can't imagine what makes it particularly cloudy, other than being 8-core
[23:09] <directhex> i'm going to bed
[23:09] <penguin42> that's a good place to be