[07:56] <pieter2627> morning all
[11:22] <superfly> .
[12:41] <magespawn> good afternoon
[15:30] <Kilos> hellooo za peeps
[18:03] <magespawn> good evening
[18:22] <Kilos> hi magespawn inetpro
[18:23] <Kilos> and other lurkers
[18:36] <magespawn> hey Kilos, you a bit of a lurker yourself
[18:36] <Kilos> haha im tired man
[18:36] <Kilos> always
[18:37] <magespawn> indeed
[18:37] <Kilos> soon i can stop meds and be awake again yay
[18:37] <magespawn> cool beans
[18:38] <Kilos> i cant even read 2 pages of a  book without falling asleep
[18:38] <magespawn> maybe they gave you the insomnia medicine
[18:38] <Kilos> whats news with you moving magespawn ?
[18:43] <inetpro> heh oom Kilos, welcome to #ubuntu-za
[18:43] <Kilos> hahaha hi inetpro , sorry man
[18:44] <Kilos> at least i made a membership board meeting last night
[18:44] <inetpro> oh and good mornings everyone
[18:44] <Kilos> you okeys mustnt worry i am well, just sleepy
[18:44] <inetpro> ah, that why you were lurking
[18:45] <Kilos> ya i read a bit and sleep or sort sheep and fowls and sleep
[18:46] <Kilos> the sukkel to remember what i was doing before going to sleep
[18:46] <Kilos> hehe
[18:48] <inetpro> yikes!
[18:49] <inetpro> Sources Claim Microsoft Is Buying Canonical-Ubuntu; Is There Logic Behind The Rumors? http://t.co/gRiqNU7oix  Oh I hope not.
[18:49] <inetpro> posted by @stevesong
[19:04] <magespawn> Kilos: not much progress yet, still trying to find viable employment
[19:07] <Kilos> oh my
[19:07] <Kilos> cant be man
[19:07] <Kilos> peeps will shoot mark
[19:08] <magespawn> inetpro i think i would probably stop using it if that happened
[19:09] <inetpro> magespawn: I don't think it will happen
[19:10] <Kilos> ill start using tinycorelinux
[19:16] <inetpro> will be very very sad if it does happen
[19:17] <inetpro> never a good thing if the big players want the full cake
[19:18] <inetpro> s/want/grab/
[19:21] <magespawn> isn't that the way of all big business though, it eliminates the competitiion
[19:24] <inetpro> well with MS and it's AD integration with everything else they would really be in a very strong position with Ubuntu in their camp
[19:25] <Kilos> ai!
[19:29] <inetpro> business is hooked on AD as things stand at this stage
[19:35] <magespawn> yup i am finding that a lot
[19:36] <Kilos> night guys, sleep tight
[19:39] <inetpro> goeie nag oom k[tab]
[19:39] <magespawn> lol
[19:39] <magespawn> one of the quickest exits
[19:40] <inetpro> magespawn: people are very lazy, that is why
[19:43] <inetpro> way too easy to shift responsibilities of managing IT Infrastructure to someone else who "know what they are doing"
[19:45] <inetpro> and the skilled sales people are good at grabbing those opportunities
[19:46] <magespawn> inetpro always looking for the easy way out
[19:47] <inetpro> very few IT people are willing to take on the full responsibility of running the full show all by themselves
[19:48] <magespawn> i had some experience of a couple of windows professionals, they knew a lot about windows, but were in the dark where other operating systems were concerned
[19:49] <inetpro> intimidating for sure, but with modern Linux it's not difficult at all these days
[19:51] <inetpro> so much more fun if you know all the ins and out of everything
[19:53] <magespawn> i like knowing the ins and outs
[19:53]  * inetpro been playing with the latest Freebsd and it's OpenBSD PF firewall in the last few days
[19:54] <inetpro> lots of fun there
[19:54] <inetpro> pf is awesome!
[19:54] <inetpro> s/it's/its/
[20:35] <magespawn> inetpro: now you have just given me something else to read up on
[20:47] <magespawn> bedtime for me now
[20:47] <magespawn> good night all


[12:03] <cyphermox> #startmeeting 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
[12:03] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 12 12:03:18 2012 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[12:03] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[12:03] <cyphermox> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 1200 UTC meeting for September 12, 2012.
[12:03] <cyphermox> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
[12:03] <cyphermox> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
[12:04] <cyphermox> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
[12:04] <cyphermox> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
[12:04] <cyphermox> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
[12:04] <cyphermox> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
[12:04] <cyphermox> #voters cyphermox Pendulum head_victim hggdh
[12:04] <meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum cyphermox head_victim hggdh
[12:04] <head_victim> Let's hope we can get through the long list of applicants tonight ;)
[12:04] <cyphermox> omg!
[12:04] <untaintableangel> lol
[12:05] <cyphermox> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
[12:05] <cyphermox> #subtopic Anthony Harrington
[12:05] <untaintableangel> Hello, everyone! My Name's Anthony and here's a link to my launchpad page: https://launchpad.net/~untaintableangel
[12:05] <untaintableangel> also to my wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnthonyHarrington
[12:05] <cyphermox> #link https://launchpad.net/~untaintableangel
[12:06] <cyphermox> #link http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnthonyHarrington
[12:06] <cyphermox> (belt and suspenders, just making sure it's there in the meeting report thingy)
[12:06] <untaintableangel> I'm 22, i study chemistry at university and i'm from the northeast of england. I'd like to become an official ubuntu member :D
[12:07] <cyphermox> #voters cyphermox Pendulum head_victim hggdh micahg
[12:07] <meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum cyphermox head_victim hggdh micahg
[12:09] <head_victim> untaintableangel: after reading your application and looking over the links, I'm curious about something. Not to belittle your translation efforts (nice karma for that!) are you involved in any other aspects of the community?
[12:10] <untaintableangel> Not currently, but in time i hope to provide coding related contributions and helping users answer questions in the ubuntuforums
[12:10] <Pendulum> untaintableangel: Have you had any involvement with the UK LoCo as far as events or interacting with members online other than translations?
[12:11] <untaintableangel> Again, not currently, emails sent between me and other launchpad members are predominantly concerning translations
[12:11] <cyphermox> untaintableangel: have you had contact with other Ubuntu members in your translation work?
[12:13] <cyphermox> Why would you like to be a Ubuntu member?
[12:16] <cyphermox> untaintableangel: still around?
[12:17] <ant__> oh dear, i think my last message didn't go through, i'll type it again
[12:18] <cyphermox> last I saw was "<untaintableangel> Again, not currently, emails sent between me and other launchpad members are predominantly concerning translations"
[12:19] <hggdh> let's give him a chance of either (1) finishing his typing, or (2) reconnecting
[12:20] <ant__> I was saying, time does become very scarce during university term time and especially around exams so i do unfortunately miss out on events, and i have to contribute where at all possible time-wise.
 Yes, i get quite a few emails from users seeking advice or requesting assistance to complete a set. Every now and then i make sure to circulate several messages of encouragement to the team/users to spur them on in their efforts :)
[12:20] <head_victim> ant__: is that on mailing lists of offlist?
[12:20] <hggdh> oh, anr__ == untaintableangle
[12:21] <ant__> both
[12:21] <hggdh> s/anr__/ant__
[12:21] <head_victim> I just hadn't seen much on the engb list in a long time (I'm a subscriber, I translate enAU)
[12:21] <ant__> yes, sorry lol i don't know why my idendity changed and i don't know how to change it back XD
[12:21] <untaintableangel> there we go, that's better lol
[12:22] <untaintableangel> ahhh, hi there
[12:22] <head_victim> :)
[12:22] <cyphermox> ah, I looked at the engb list too, but just the last few months
[12:23] <cyphermox> untaintableangel:  Why would you like to be a Ubuntu member?
[12:24] <untaintableangel> I'd love to become an official ubuntu member because i've dedicated many years towards its translations and it has become such a great part of my life that i'd like to 'officially' be 'more intertwined' with it, if you will. lol
[12:25] <untaintableangel> What i'm saying is: ubuntu is something to be proud of and i'd like to be officially associated with it
[12:27] <hggdh> untaintableangel: what we are trying to ascertain is how involved with the community-at-large you are
[12:27] <hggdh> so please give us data on that
[12:28] <untaintableangel> i see, well i'm known to other english translators, certainly, and well known to specific teams like emesene
[12:29] <untaintableangel> but really, not much outside of launchpad
[12:30] <untaintableangel> 'at the moment' being the key point though. I would certainly be more involved at-large if i could contribute coding related things but i don't have the expertise just yet, i'm afraid :(
[12:32] <cyphermox> it doesn't have to be coding
[12:32] <Pendulum> untaintableangel: there is more "community at large" than just coding (I've never done any translations and I'd been a member for over a year before I did any code)
[12:32] <cyphermox> Let's get to the voting part
[12:32] <cyphermox> #vote Anthony Harrington to obtain Ubuntu Membership
[12:32] <meetingology> Please vote on: Anthony Harrington to obtain Ubuntu Membership
[12:32] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[12:33] <hggdh> +1 I would really like to see more community-at-large involvement, but the translation work justifies it (albeit minimally)
[12:33] <meetingology> +1 I would really like to see more community-at-large involvement, but the translation work justifies it (albeit minimally) received from hggdh
[12:33] <cyphermox> +1 , please get more involved with other parts of the community where possible (like your LoCo team); you could be a great motivator for others to do translation work
[12:33] <meetingology> +1 , please get more involved with other parts of the community where possible (like your LoCo team); you could be a great motivator for others to do translation work received from cyphermox
[12:34] <head_victim> +1 A suggestion I have moving forward would be to try to interact more with the community in whatever area you like but your efforts to date warrant membership as is
[12:34] <meetingology> +1 A suggestion I have moving forward would be to try to interact more with the community in whatever area you like but your efforts to date warrant membership as is received from head_victim
[12:34] <Pendulum> +1 good work with translations, but I'd love to see more community interaction (LoCo, maybe translations jams, etc.)
[12:34] <meetingology> +1 good work with translations, but I'd love to see more community interaction (LoCo, maybe translations jams, etc.) received from Pendulum
[12:34] <untaintableangel> I promise, i won't let you down :)
[12:34] <head_victim> untaintableangel: an example of how to get involved without having to code would be to run a translation jam with your loco or something similar :)
[12:34] <cyphermox> yeah! that's a great idea
[12:35] <untaintableangel> a translation jam?
[12:35] <micahg> +0 excellent translations work, but would have liked to see more integration with existing members
[12:35] <meetingology> +0 excellent translations work, but would have liked to see more integration with existing members received from micahg
[12:35] <cyphermox> especially explaining at least the use and context in translating to en_GB
[12:35] <head_victim> untaintableangel: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
[12:35] <Pendulum> untaintableangel: also, if you use IRC at all, hang out in the #ubuntu-uk IRC channel and that may give you some ideas on what's going on that you could do without too much more time on your part
[12:36] <cyphermox> #endvote
[12:36] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Anthony Harrington to obtain Ubuntu Membership
[12:36] <meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
[12:36] <meetingology> Motion carried
[12:36] <head_victim> I'm sure the lovely folk in #ubuntu-uk would be a good place to start :)
[12:36] <cyphermox> Congratulations untaintableangel
[12:36] <untaintableangel> :D Thank you!!!
[12:36] <head_victim> Congratulations untaintableangel, keep up the good work :)
[12:36] <untaintableangel> wooooooo
[12:37] <hggdh> untaintableangel: welcome. Please do get around to know your community ;-)
[12:37] <cyphermox> If you have a blog, don't forget you should be able to add it to planet.ubuntu.com shortly :)
[12:37] <untaintableangel> Thank you so much everyone :) I will become more involved
[12:37] <cyphermox> (pending I do the necessary magic)
[12:37] <hggdh> blogging, yes, good point
[12:37] <hggdh> bah, cyphermox IS a magic
[12:37] <cyphermox> pff
[12:37] <untaintableangel> lol
[12:37] <cyphermox> Any other business?
[12:38] <Pendulum> untaintableangel: congrats!
[12:38] <hggdh> no, I think we are done, cyphermox
[12:38] <cyphermox> good good
[12:38] <cyphermox> #endmeeting
[12:38] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 12 12:38:25 2012 UTC.
[12:38] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-12.03.moin.txt
[12:38] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-12.03.html
[12:38] <untaintableangel> :)
[12:39] <cyphermox> yay, the "#link" were useful. I knew it!
[12:40] <hggdh> untaintableangel: the whole point is that a community is made by the people you directly interact with, the ones that depend on  your work, and the "others". Getting to know as many as you can outside your expertise area glues much better the community
[12:42] <untaintableangel> Thank you for your time and words of wisdom, everyone. Have a good day! :)
[12:43] <hggdh> untaintableangel: a good night for you, sir
[14:00] <balloons> good morning/evening
[14:01] <smartboyhw> Good evening here
[14:01] <smartboyhw> phillw: Say good morning/
[14:01] <balloons> #startmeeting Ubuntu QA Community
[14:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 12 14:01:22 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[14:01] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[14:01] <phillw> good afternoon from UK
[14:02] <balloons> who all is here?
[14:02] <kanliot> o/
[14:02] <smartboyhw> \o
[14:02] <phillw> o/
[14:02] <balloons> :-) so quick nice
[14:02] <balloons> let's dive in shall we.
[14:02] <smartboyhw> ;-)
[14:03] <balloons> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
[14:03] <balloons> I believe the only outstanding item is me to get the https://qa.ubuntu.com/ site fixed
[14:03] <smartboyhw> lol 3 weeks issue now:)
[14:03] <balloons> the ticket is still outstanding.. I'm still waiting :-(
[14:03] <balloons> it's going to take time
[14:04] <phillw> just have to keep reminding them :)
[14:04] <balloons> yep
[14:04] <smartboyhw> :)
[14:04] <balloons> ok, so moving along then
[14:05] <balloons> [ACTION] balloons to follow-up with ubuntu-qa website changes
[14:05] <meetingology> ACTION: balloons to follow-up with ubuntu-qa website changes
[14:05] <balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Updates
[14:05] <balloons> So updates for ubuntu :-) Well knome has been working on visually enhancing our testcases
[14:05] <balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+bug/1039158
[14:06] <smartboyhw> Yes and I destroyed it:)(
[14:06] <smartboyhw> By not knowing it:(
[14:06] <smartboyhw> Sorry everybody:)
[14:06] <balloons> And I've been working on writing the new testcases for ubiquity and migrating the alt cases over as needed
[14:07]  * smartboyhw goes and looks at the sandbox
[14:07] <balloons> In addition, focus is being given now to getting the flavors on board with re-using the ubuntu testcases and adding flavor specifics in there own testcases
[14:07] <kanliot> i sent phillw some testcases, i wonder if he saw em.  They were from the fedora team
[14:07] <phillw> kanliot: yes, I have them & the ideas from Julien to look throughj.
[14:10] <balloons> So, in addition, beta is behind us, ff is behind us.. things are starting to stabilize a bit
[14:10] <smartboyhw> Yay!
[14:11]  * balloons checking schedule
[14:11] <balloons> Sept 27th is beta2
[14:11] <phillw> indeed, 2 weeks.
[14:11] <balloons> once that hits it will be quite an october full of testing
[14:12] <balloons> :-)
[14:12] <smartboyhw> ;0
[14:12] <balloons> I think that's it for updates themselves.. any questions before we move on?
[14:13] <smartboyhw> No.:)
[14:14] <balloons> [TOPIC] Other topics
[14:15] <balloons> that means the floor is open
[14:15] <phillw> o/
[14:17] <kanliot> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1046563
[14:18] <kanliot> could use some help communicating with the maintainer
[14:18] <smartboyhw> kanliot: Please \o
[14:18] <smartboyhw> and wait for the chair (balloons' approval) before you speak:)
[14:18] <balloons> go ahead phillw
[14:18] <kanliot> am i outta order?
[14:18] <smartboyhw> kanliot: You are:)
[14:18] <balloons> kanliot, yes, but no worries
[14:19] <phillw> the x-bug affecting ppc appears to have been a red herring as that fix was for graphic chips that ppc computers do not have.
[14:20] <phillw> work is ongoing to add a command similar to the nomdeset command.
[14:21] <phillw> it does not seem, at this time, that the bug is reproducable in a Virtual Machine, so it is heavily reliant on the L-QA guys who have the hardware.
[14:21] <phillw> ..
[14:22] <smartboyhw> \o
[14:22] <balloons> thanks phillw .. that's good news
[14:22] <balloons> kanliot, go ahead
[14:22] <kanliot> ok bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1046563
[14:22] <kanliot> need help communicating with the maintainer
[14:22] <kanliot> to help suggest solutions
[14:23] <smartboyhw> That's awkward weird
[14:23] <kanliot> pretty much update manager turned it'self off on lubuntu last month\
[14:24] <balloons> kanliot, really? phillw hear of others having the same issue?
[14:24] <balloons> that's really bizarre
[14:25] <kanliot> yeah i'm surprised that more people arent upset
[14:25] <balloons> basically, there's updates, but you'll never be prompted
[14:25] <kanliot> but i get upset about everything, so it's normal for me
[14:25] <balloons> did you check and make sure the settings to prompt are correct?
[14:25] <phillw> balloons: I'd have to fire up a VM, but it is confirmed by another tester
[14:25] <balloons> perhaps reset them?
[14:25] <balloons> phillw, ahh.. yes, we're all in quantal mode
[14:25] <smartboyhw> Me too I'm in quantal mode (and no Lubuntu ONLY)
[14:27] <phillw> balloons: I'll dig out from my other drive an 12.04 lubuntu and run the upgrades through it on a VM - but my internet speed is slow, so it will take quite a few hours :(
[14:27] <smartboyhw> Don't worry we do have time:)
[14:27] <balloons> phillw, no no.. I can confirm it much quicker than that
[14:27] <kanliot> it's pretty clearly broken
[14:27] <smartboyhw> balloons: :)
[14:27] <balloons> but the point is it's been confirmed
[14:27] <kanliot> you can run the update manager through the cron script when it's working
[14:27] <balloons> so I'm not worried about that.. just wanted to see how much debugging has been done
[14:27] <kanliot> and when it's broken, the cron script doesn nothing
[14:28] <kanliot> so reproducing isn't the problem
[14:28] <balloons> ok kanliot i'll bring this up and see if we can get someone to give feedback on it
[14:28] <balloons> thanks
[14:28] <kanliot> the problem is that all lubuntu people wont get updates if they upgrade to 12.04
[14:28] <kanliot> ty balloons
[14:28] <balloons> yw
[14:28] <smartboyhw> \o
[14:28] <balloons> smartboyhw, go ahead
[14:28] <smartboyhw> balloons: Just a small one
[14:28] <balloons> sure
[14:28] <smartboyhw> and a reminder only:)
[14:28] <smartboyhw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings/QA/20120905
[14:29] <smartboyhw> you forgotten to add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[14:29] <smartboyhw> :)
[14:29] <smartboyhw> ..
[14:29] <phillw> smartboyhw: it is there, just waiting on balloons to fix the regex :P
[14:29]  * balloons is booting lubuntu 12.04 to see what happens
[14:29] <smartboyhw> ;P
[14:29] <balloons> phillw, ohh right.. that regex.. my changes must not have saved
[14:29] <balloons> perhaps I never saved it
[14:29] <balloons> lol
[14:30] <phillw> he he.
[14:30] <balloons> [ACTION] balloons to fix regex on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[14:30] <meetingology> ACTION: balloons to fix regex on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[14:30] <smartboyhw> lol
[14:30] <smartboyhw> ..
[14:31] <balloons> ok, any other questions?
[14:32] <smartboyhw> No. End the meeting:)
[14:33] <balloons> phillw, kanliot testing the update-manager bug right now
[14:33] <balloons> #endmeeting
[14:33] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 12 14:33:05 2012 UTC.
[14:33] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-14.01.moin.txt
[14:33] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-14.01.html
[14:33] <smartboyhw> THanks balloons
[14:33] <balloons> let's chat in #ubuntu-testing
[14:33] <smartboyhw> And phillw and kanliot
[14:33] <phillw> thanks for chairing balloons
[14:33]  * smartboyhw runs to #ubuntu-testing
[15:00] <cjwatson> Hi folks
[15:00] <stokachu> o/
[15:00] <infinity> o/
[15:00] <stokachu> \o
[15:00] <jodh> \o/
[15:00]  * xnox \0/
[15:00] <stokachu> /o/
[15:00] <ogra_> *plop*
[15:00] <jodh> we need to practise the YMCA y'all.
[15:00] <stokachu> lol
[15:01] <cjwatson> Steve is in a hot tub drinking champagne^W^W^W^W^W^Wat a managers' sprint, so asked me to run the meeting
[15:01] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[15:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 12 15:01:18 2012 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:01] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:01] <cjwatson> #topic lightning round
[15:01] <cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e barry bdmurray cjwatson ev doko ogra jodh stgraber infinity xnox stokachu)
[15:01] <cjwatson> stokachu jodh xnox barry cjwatson ogra stgraber doko ev infinity bdmurray
[15:01]  * infinity naps.
[15:03] <stokachu> - working on bug regression for libgcrypt, swamped in customer issues, backporting multi-arch into precise for the ones that have been approved, testing/verifying approved multiarch srus
[15:03] <stokachu> done
[15:03] <ev> oh yes, team meeting
[15:03]  * ev scrambles
[15:03] <jodh> * blueprints
[15:03] <jodh>   - foundations-q-session-management:
[15:03] <jodh>     - no progress.
[15:03] <jodh>   - desktop-q-upstart-session-requirements
[15:03] <jodh>     - not started.
[15:03] <jodh>   - foundations-q-upstart-service-readiness
[15:03] <jodh>     - no progress.
[15:03] <jodh>   - foundations-q-upstart-roadmap
[15:03] <jodh>     - no progress.
[15:03] <jodh>   - foundations-q-event-based-initramfs:
[15:03] <jodh>     - reviewing slangaseks changes.
[15:03] <jodh>     - collaboration with cjwaton on ptrace parent semantics:
[15:03] <jodh>       - wading through kernel code and writing tests both confirm that
[15:03] <jodh>         if a "debugger" re-execs, it retains its debugger status over
[15:03] <jodh>         ptraced children. This behaviour appears not to be documented.
[15:03] <jodh>     - allow unflushed log data to include null bytes in serialised data.
[15:03] <jodh>     - fixed issue where 2nd and subsequent re-exec stopped log data serialisation.
[15:04] <jodh>     - reviewed and merged lp:~jconti/upstart/fix_empty_chroot.
[15:04] <jodh>     - reviewed lp:~cjwatson/upstart/stateful-reexec-ptrace.
[15:04] <jodh>     - started writing tests (for sessions). This has uncovered an issue
[15:04] <jodh>       with how empty strings are encoded which has necessitated a lot of
[15:04] <jodh>       macro tweaks (in progress).
[15:04] <jodh> * upstart
[15:04] <jodh>   - bug 1049820: informed user of workaround and identified fix.
[15:04] <jodh> ~
[15:04] <jodh> sorry ev - I'm not getting competitive, honest!
[15:04] <slangasek> jodh: any further comments on my merge request?  is it time to merge it?: )
[15:04] <jodh> slangasek: which one? :) Do you mean the partial handling one?
[15:05] <ev> hahaha
[15:05] <slangasek> jodh: yes
[15:05] <cjwatson> thanks for the comments on my MP; I'll get to them once I'm out from under a few other things
[15:06] <jodh> well, the session test I'm currently working on touches on that whole area. TBH, I think that if we drop the partial handling, we also need the redesign whereby we serialise in the parent since we its a lot messier to back-out of an event_new() than creating a partial event.
[15:06] <cjwatson> I thought the agreement was that serialising in the parent was simpler anyway ...
[15:06] <jodh> slangasek: so, I think we do need to simplify that whole area, but it requires other changes to be applied together so I'll work on that.
[15:07] <xnox> * rls-q-tracking:
[15:07] <xnox>  - btrfs-tools mark quantal task as fixed released, due to merging new
[15:07] <xnox>    upstream release back in may. Precise task is still open.
[15:07] <xnox>  - partman-auto-lvm fixed 154086 in precise & quantal, patch send to
[15:07] <xnox>    debian as well (stokachu *wink* )
[15:07] <xnox>  - autofs bug #488696 did some analysis options are to fix buggy
[15:07] <xnox>    lex/bison parser or to rewrite it in C (as libc does). But I don't
[15:07] <xnox>    have working lex/bison knowledge nor want to spend time ripping
[15:07] <xnox>    libc specific bits out of the libc parser. Anyone up for fun times
[15:07] <xnox>    with lex/yacc?!
[15:07] <xnox>  - proposed a branch to fix the top crashes in ubiquity bug #1027648,
[15:07] <xnox>    which is actually yet another incarnation of an older bug #792652.
[15:07] <xnox>    Please review https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/ubiquity/fix-value-errors/+merge/123727
[15:07] <xnox> * ubiquity:
[15:07] <xnox>  - many bugfixes committed and uploaded
[15:07] <jodh> yes it is and we plan to do that, but I'm currently working on the tests, being higher priority than that parent-serialisation work (it's in the TODO list :)
[15:07] <xnox>  - good progress on hooking up manual crypt UI
[15:07] <xnox>  - spent some time chatting with Riddell, Qt Automatic LVM & LUKS has
[15:07] <xnox>    landed in trunk, pending FFe bug 1048712
[15:07] <cjwatson> fix-value-errors> on my list (somewhere), thanks
[15:07]  * xnox realised it's my turn.
[15:07] <cjwatson> need to think hard about that
[15:08] <xnox> true....
[15:08] <xnox> .. *done* ..
[15:09] <barry> more consumption of gwibber spaghetti, but it's getting progressively more gluten-free as we're nearing completion of the py3 port.  worked a bit on support for the py3 port of twisted (buildbots, ppas).  bug #1048710 (patches landed upstream, but discussion is ongoing).  bug #887699 (postponed).  no change to q blueprints.  will atone today for my lack of patch piloting yesterday.  will continue with r planning of py3 work.  done.
[15:10] <slangasek> jodh: hmm, I don't agree that these things are tied; I think the 'partial' reworking stands on its own...  but ok, we can discuss outside the meeting
[15:10] <cjwatson> Got permission to open-source the bits of cdimage that weren't already released, in conjunction with my Python rewrite; so I've been powering ahead with that rewrite.  In branch hell at the moment.
[15:11] <cjwatson> Working on GRUB 2.00 packaging; FFe approved as long as I get it landed this week, so aiming for that.  Testing looking fairly good so far.
[15:11] <cjwatson> Worked on a test for ptrace handling across stateful-reexec in Upstart.  Needs a few tidy-ups before landing, but James and I confirmed that ptrace is preserved which saves a chunk of work.
[15:11] <cjwatson> Tidied up various glitches in the squashfs-base server image (bug 1028453, bug 1049011).
[15:11] <cjwatson> Added a couple of binaries to ubuntustudio-meta on request of the Ubuntu Studio folks.
[15:11] <cjwatson> Backported fix for data-loss bug in 'sort -u' (bug 1038468).
[15:11] <cjwatson> Lots of rebuilds for glew and tiff transitions.
[15:11] <cjwatson> ..
[15:11] <ogra_> done:
[15:11] <ogra_>  * plenty of ac100 testing, fixing etc
[15:11] <ogra_>  * held panda install hangout talk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsIW7EF103A
[15:11] <ogra_>  * flash-kernel: worked on hiding boot devices
[15:11] <ogra_>  * started on updating the arm install wikis
[15:11] <ogra_>  * some GLES driver work (kernel tests etc for fixing the remaining issues) for bug 1045491
[15:11] <ogra_>  * looked into lshw, it defaults to run dmidecode as first test on all arches, started looking into a fix
[15:11] <ogra_> todo:
[15:11] <ogra_>  * finish flash-kernel changes
[15:11] <ogra_>  * inspect framebuffer and kbd issues with d-i on panda (1045855 and 1045788)
[15:11] <ogra_>  * get the kernel fixes for 1045491 finally applied
[15:11] <ogra_>  * finish wikipages
[15:11] <ogra_> ..
[15:12] <stgraber>  - Container
[15:12] <stgraber>    - Worked on upstream repository, got daily builds setup, soon to be integrated with the test suite (Serge is working on that part)
[15:12] <stgraber>    - Announced the upstream staging branch, reviewed and merged quite a few more changes
[15:12] <stgraber>    - Rewrote lxc-start-ephemeral in python3 using the API (used to be shell) and pushed upstream
[15:12] <stgraber>    - Reviewed Serge's changes to the server guide (covering apparmor changes, seccomp, hooks and API)
[15:12] <stgraber>    - Started preparing a blog post on the API
[15:12] <stgraber>  - Release
[15:12] <stgraber>    - Beta-1 release with the usual tweaks to lp:ubuntu-archive-tools
[15:12] <stgraber>    - A few FFe/UIFe reviews
[15:12] <stgraber>  - Networking
[15:12] <stgraber>    - Spent some time going through bug 1003656 again, hopefully fixed for good this time. Forwarded change to Debian.
[15:12] <stgraber>    - Re-added missing dhclient-script code checking for /etc/resolv.conf writability (when not using resolvconf), forwarded to Debian
[15:13] <stgraber>    - Uploaded resolvconf with bugfix for bug 1035076 and bug 994575
[15:13] <stgraber>    - Reviewed fix in bug 752481 and uploaded
[15:13] <stgraber>  - Other
[15:13] <stgraber>    - Some ARB package reviews
[15:13] <stgraber>    - Tested new grub2 from cjwatson's PPA
[15:13] <stgraber>  - TODO
[15:13] <stgraber>    - Continue with isc-dhcp bugfixes
[15:13] <stgraber>    - Look at merging ifupdown 0.7.2 (should be bugfix only)
[15:13] <stgraber>    - Go through the other networking related packages seeing if there's something else that needs fixing for 12.10
[15:13] <stgraber>    - ISO tracker work
[15:13] <stgraber> (DONE)
[15:15] <cjwatson> doko: ?
[15:15] <doko> - openjdk-7 backport for precise
[15:15] <doko> - binutils and gcc-4.7 updates (toward the 2.23 and 4.7.2 releases).
[15:15] <doko> - start ubuntu+1 maintenance
[15:15] <doko> - worked on component mismatches, filed outstanding bug reports, pestered people, and processed some MIRs
[15:15] <doko> - cleaning up NBS, bug fixes, package removals
[15:15] <doko> (done)
[15:15] <ev> - Massive http://errors.ubuntu.com deployment.
[15:15] <ev>   - We've now gone live with our own handling of openid. Your session will be
[15:15] <ev>     cached - you'll no longer have to log into every individual problem or
[15:15] <ev>     instance page. This also will let us map your teams to the packages those
[15:15] <ev>     teams are responsible for, in order to give you a custom view of the most
[15:15] <ev>     common problems table.
[15:16] <ev>   - We've iterated over the most common problems table a lot. The coloring
[15:16] <ev>     should be a bit more obvious (we're still working through this) and it
[15:16] <ev>     should be a lot easier to read overall.
[15:16] <ev>   - The graph finally has a denominator of the number of unique systems over a
[15:16] <ev>     90 day span. I have to manually run a script for each day for this until
[15:16] <ev>     my merge to canonical-memento gets merged.
[15:16] <ev>   - The graph now changes to reflect what packages and Ubuntu version you've
[15:16] <ev>     selected. So you can now see how often software-center crashes over time.
[15:16] <ev>   - You can create bug links where they don't already exist. Woo.
[15:16] <ev>   - The Loading of the most common problems table has been sped up again. In
[15:16] <ev>     my tests it loads somewhere between 1483 and 1988ms, but production is
[15:16] <ev>     still somehow a bit sluggish. Investigating further.
[15:16] <ev>   - The coloring of the most common problems table actually reflects the
[15:16] <ev>     selected release. The first seen and last seen fields do as well.
[15:16] <ev> - Started testing Cassandra authentication on behalf of the webops team so
[15:16] <ev>   that we can give Brian read-only access to the DB.
[15:16] <ev> - Lots of bug fixes. I'll spare you listing them all here for a change.
[15:16] <ev> - Merges from both Brian and Matthew. Yay contributors!
[15:16] <ev> (done)
[15:16] <infinity> - kernel SRU wrangling
[15:16] <infinity> - utouch->oif rename SRU reviews/shepherding
[15:16] <infinity> - other random SRU and AA work
[15:16] <infinity> - some FFe reviews
[15:16] <infinity> - discussions about offspring and cdimage mating
[15:16] <infinity> - discussions with IS about the state of buildd upgrades
[15:16] <infinity> - worked on livefs-in-soyuz stuff a bit
[15:16] <infinity> - a few FTBFS fixes
[15:16] <infinity> - looked into dpkg SRU for bug #624877
[15:16] <infinity> - started looking at clang updates
[15:16] <infinity> ………
[15:17] <ev> sorry if that's entirely incoherent. I was working with Matthew on how we present the coloring if we're showing all the releases at once, and entirely forgot we had the meeting. Oops.
[15:17] <bdmurray> research into package install failures and less useful dpkgterminallog files - 'can not write log'
[15:17] <bdmurray> added patch / branch information to rls-q-tracking and incoming reports
[15:17] <bdmurray> added count per team to rls-q reports on cranberry
[15:17] <bdmurray> errors branch to display Launchpad bug report on a bucket page
[15:17] <bdmurray> errors branch to sort package versions on a bucket page
[15:17] <bdmurray> errors branch to display the release(s) a package version is in on a bucket page
[15:17] <bdmurray> modified needs-packaging wishlisting code to be more lenient regarding bug title renaming
[15:17] <bdmurray> branch for sponsoring page to show nominated tasks (bug 833706)
[15:17] <bdmurray> bug fix for aptdaemon bug 875879
[15:17] <bdmurray> worked on fixing apport bug 1039220
[15:18] <bdmurray> done
[15:20] <cjwatson> ok, thanks all
[15:20] <cjwatson> #topic bugs
[15:20] <cjwatson> my rough impression is that rls-q-tracking has been trending downwards, but I don't know if there are any graphs of that so I'm going off memory
[15:20] <bdmurray> I ran across bug 988583 again and was wondering if that might be fixed with the new version of grub2
[15:21] <bdmurray> cjwatson: there are no graphs for rls-q-tracking but there is a number in the report now
[15:21] <cjwatson> bdmurray: it's certainly possible; there've been a number of changes in the hfsplus driver
[15:21] <bdmurray> and I recall it being at around 50 last week
[15:22] <ev> oooh, is one of those changes write support?
[15:22] <cjwatson> including things like "Add btree loop check"
[15:22] <cjwatson> ev: ... in grub?
[15:22] <ev> hahaha
[15:22] <ev> sorry
[15:22] <bdmurray> additionally per steve's suggestion I added in a P and a B for bugs with patches or branches
[15:22] <ev> I missed that part :)
[15:22] <cjwatson> knee.  stop jerking.
[15:23] <cjwatson> bdmurray: I'll leave a note on that bug asking for testing
[15:23] <bdmurray> cjwatson: okay, thanks
[15:24] <bdmurray> with the dropping of the alternates cdromupgrade will no longer be supported - is that correct? bug 1045201
[15:24] <cjwatson> we should probably go round images and check, but that's my understanding
[15:25] <xnox> i wonder though... there is a package pool on the quantal cd's with optional/restricted packages....
[15:25] <xnox> does update-manager pick that up as upgrade pool?
[15:25] <cjwatson> it's probably still on the server CD, probably mistakenly
[15:26] <cjwatson> since apt isn't going to have a whole lot of luck upgrading the base system from the squashfs
[15:27] <cjwatson> xnox: you know I'm actually not sure
[15:28] <bdmurray> so it sounds like there is some testing to be done
[15:28] <cjwatson> update-notifier distinguishes between "CD with packages", "CD with dist-upgrader", "CD with addons", "CD with aptoncd"
[15:29]  * xnox commented on the bug
[15:29] <cjwatson> I don't think we'll get the dist-upgrader one but it might well show up as having packages
[15:29] <cjwatson> arguably correctly
[15:29] <cjwatson> This is the difference between:
[15:29] <cjwatson>   A volume with software packages has been detected.  Would you like to open it with the package manager?
[15:29] <cjwatson> and:
[15:30] <cjwatson>   A distribution volume with software packages has been detected.  Would you like to try to upgrade from it automatically?
[15:32] <xnox> cjwatson: will you comment on the bug?
[15:33]  * xnox didn't even think about aptoncd
[15:33] <cjwatson> it's actually not relevant because it's commented out
[15:33] <xnox> also how does one produce "DVD with dist-upgrader" for personal reasons.
[15:33] <cjwatson> packages vs. dist-upgrader are the only two we actually need to care about
[15:33] <cjwatson> I suggest you start with data/apt-cdrom-check in update-notifier
[15:34] <cjwatson> anyway all the stuff that apt-cdrom-check looks for is basically under the same chunk of code in debian-cd
[15:34] <cjwatson> so it's easy enough to switch on and off
[15:34] <cjwatson> (for dist-upgrader support)
[15:35] <cjwatson> I've commented on the bug by the time-honoured method of copy and paste
[15:35] <cjwatson> next?
[15:35]  * xnox who is "you" in the "I suggest you.."? (or did my connection drop and I missed something)
[15:35] <cjwatson> xnox: you, since you asked 'how does one produce "DVD with dist-upgrader"'
[15:35] <xnox> ah ok.
[15:35] <bdmurray> is bug 1013681 still something fixable for quantal?
[15:35] <cjwatson> apt-cdrom-check will show you what it's looking for
[15:36]  * xnox got it.
[15:37] <cjwatson> well, I've acked the proposed approach on 1013681 now although not the specifics
[15:38] <cjwatson> it's not a security hole as the code is currently disabled, so I'd rather not rush mvo into it; if he's comfortable that what he has now is secure then he should upload it, if not then we can live without it for another release IMO
[15:41] <bdmurray> okay so let's wait on won't fix'ing
[15:41] <bdmurray> that's all I had for today
[15:43] <mvo> cjwatson: it will require a server side change
[15:43] <mvo> cjwatson: if you guys are happy with the new proposed schema we can upload (once the server side is updated)
[15:43] <mvo> but I (much) agree we should not rush this :) it caused enough pain already :/
[15:45] <cjwatson> Of course I can't help with the server side change at the moment because we don't have our sudo access back yet on pepo
[15:45] <cjwatson> You'll probably have to ask webops
[15:46]  * xnox got some help with autofs flex parser from mjt =)
[15:46]  * xnox \0/
[15:47] <cjwatson> #topic AOB
[15:47] <cjwatson> xnox: oh good
[15:48] <cjwatson> any more for any more?
[15:49] <ev> the 12.10 and 12.04 lines on errors.ubuntu.com have not converged
[15:49] <ev> and we're getting ever closer to release day
[15:49] <ev> not sure how to spin that into a positive :)
[15:50] <infinity> Are we expecting them to converge?
[15:50] <ev> infinity: I would hope so. It currently implies that 12.10 is less stable than 12.04
[15:50] <infinity> A stable release with a ton of post-release bugfixing, versus a new release with a ton of new software and new bugs?
[15:50] <xnox> ev: having them no converged is ok, as long as quantal one is below precise..... but that is not the case
[15:51] <xnox> ev: having them not converged is ok, as long as quantal one is below precise..... but that is not the case
[15:51] <infinity> (I mean, I'd like each release to be better than the last, but right after an LTS and a massive push to stabilise said LTS seems like a bit of a hard benchmark)
[15:51] <ev> but surely we don't want to ship something less stable than what we put out previously?
[15:51] <ogra_> heh
[15:51] <ev> one step forward, two steps back and all that
[15:52] <ogra_> can we hire 100 more devs then ?
[15:52] <infinity> ev: I think the only way to guarantee that is to stop fixing bugs in the LTS. :P
[15:52]  * micahg would think that applies LTS -> LTS
[15:52]  * xnox was considering to propose that Debian releases when RC(stable) > RC(testing) for a period of 3+ months....
[15:52] <ogra_> micahg, ++
[15:52]  * ev beats ogra_ to death with the mythical man month
[15:52] <micahg> or interim -> interim
[15:52] <cjwatson> I can't figure out how to get the table below the graphs to show me just problems in 12.10
[15:52] <TheLordOfTime> cjwatson:  on errors.u.c?
[15:52] <cjwatson> Yes
[15:53] <ev> cjwatson: change the "error reports for" to Ubuntu 12.10
[15:53] <TheLordOfTime> ^ that
[15:53] <TheLordOfTime> near the top of that
[15:53] <TheLordOfTime> page
[15:53] <cjwatson> I do not see a widget labelled thus
[15:53] <cjwatson> There are clicky things labelled "Ubuntu 12.04" and "Ubuntu 12.10"
[15:53] <ev> above that
[15:53] <ev> to the left
[15:53] <cjwatson> Oh I see, duh
[15:53] <cjwatson> Thanks
[15:53] <ev> just under the site navigation
[15:53] <TheLordOfTime> :P
[15:53] <ev> sure thing
[15:53] <ev> that's changing, by the way
[15:54] <ev> to something you'll presumably find a bit more intuitive
[15:54] <ev> I'll post the mockup shortly
[15:55]  * xnox presumes cjwatson scrolled down to the table ignoring the pretty pictures and colourful css and then tried to control the table....
[15:55] <ev> but it's like jml summarised in that canonical-tech posting:
[15:55] <cjwatson> The 12.10 list seems pretty dominated by software-center
[15:55] <ev>    * Don't show your work-in-progress. Make it look like it came from
[15:55] <ev> heaven. You aren't going to get a second chance after they use your
[15:55] <ev> buggy app.
[15:55] <ev>      * Ship 3.0.
[15:55] <cjwatson> xnox: No, I was misled by "all installed versions"
[15:55] <ev> I just don't think it's acceptable that we throw something out there that's less stable than 12.04 just because 12.04 was an LTS
[15:55] <ev> I have no doubt I'll be overruled on this :)
[15:55] <ev> but I want to make that sentiment known
[15:56] <xnox> ev: Debian folks will love you =)
[15:56] <ev> somehow I doubt that
[15:56] <ev> Debian folks and I don't generally get along
[15:56]  * xnox remembers something about "time-based releases"
[15:56] <ogra_> ev, seriously, the LTS got several extra months of stabilization
[15:56] <slangasek> yeah, we Debian folk don't get on with ev
[15:56] <ev> what with my love for our inherited package system and development process
[15:56] <ogra_> how could 12.10 even remotely be more stable
[15:57] <ev> ogra_: because we shouldn't be letting things through that make it less stable. 12.04 should be the bar.
[15:57] <infinity> ev: Generally, I agree with you that each release should be an obvious quality iteration over the last, but the way we did post-release development on the LTS, it's a bit hard to demand that the next non-LTS measure up, bug-wise (though, it should be shinier and featurier!)
[15:57] <ogra_> to do a proper comparison here you would have to compare a snapshot of 12.04 that was taken at the same time in the cycle to todays quantal at least
[15:58] <slangasek> infinity: it's not hard at all to demand it, it's just hard to deliver it
[15:58] <infinity> ev: "Shouldn't be letting things through that make it less stable" means "no new upstream GNOME or KDE" (etc), which just ain't gonna happen.
[15:58] <davmor2> ogra_: not switch it on?
[15:58] <ev> we shouldn't consider each release independent of one another, otherwise we're always going to be going back and forth between remotely stable and hideously unstable
[15:58] <infinity> slangasek: Heh.
[15:58] <slangasek> I think we absolutely should demand it ;)
[15:58] <ogra_> davmor2, lol
[15:59] <ev> so for what it's worth, Matthew has asked Rick to make that graph release criteria in the future
[15:59] <ogra_> oh my
[15:59] <micahg> ev: no, but you have to compare apples to apples, 10.04 -> 12.04, 10.10 -> 12.10
[15:59] <ogra_> ev, then pretty please sync up the comparison timelines
[16:00] <ev> micahg, ogra_: then we'll at best be racing to catch up with the LTS as we get close to it
[16:00] <ogra_> you cant really compare something that had 50% more time and work invested into it with something unfinished if you dont look at the same timeframe
[16:00] <slangasek> micahg: why should we tolerate the newer release being crashier than the older one, LTS or not?
[16:00] <ev> we won't be getting more stable than the LTS
[16:00] <ev> and we wont be able to promise stable releases to our users between releases
[16:00] <slangasek> ogra_: why is "something unfinished" uploaded to the archive? :)
[16:00] <micahg> slangasek: because the LTS is feature conservative which starts you out in a better place quality wise
[16:00] <ogra_> slangasek, the release as such isnt finished :)
[16:01] <slangasek> ogra_: right, so you're arguing we should compare 12.10 today with 12.04 at the same point pre-release instead of comparing it with 12.04 today
[16:01] <ev> welcome mpt. Thought you might find this chat interesting
[16:01] <ogra_> all i'm sayin is that you need to compate precise after 5 months of development with quantal after 5months of development
[16:01] <ogra_> else the measuring is nonsense
[16:01] <infinity> We wouldn't need such pesky things as "feature freeze", if every new feature was landed bug-free.  Adding new software will add bugs, period.
[16:01] <micahg> even that might not be a fair comparison
[16:01] <infinity> And the LTS had 3 months of extra bug-fixing.
[16:01] <slangasek> ogra_: the point is that we want to be constantly ratcheting up the quality
[16:01] <ogra_> *compare
[16:02] <infinity> (Heck, it continues to have bug-fixing)
[16:02] <slangasek> and not just delivering something that's "as good" at release time as the last one
[16:02] <ogra_> slangasek, how if we have a huge dump of new sowftware each cycle that needs stabilization first
[16:02] <ev> infinity: sure - but shouldn't we be forward porting those fixes too?
[16:02] <ogra_> it will always be a sinus
[16:02] <slangasek> and the way to do that is to hold ourselves to a higher standard than what we delivered before
[16:02] <slangasek> ogra_: by not allowing huge dumps of software still in need of stabilization
[16:02] <ev> slangasek: ++
[16:02] <infinity> ev: Old fixes don't magically apply to new features.
[16:02] <ogra_> it might raise over tie
[16:02] <micahg> right, while there's a 6 mo release cycle, it's really a 2 yr/4 release cycle
[16:03] <infinity> ev: But yes, where they apply, of course they should be forward-ported and upstreamed.
[16:03] <slangasek> anyway, I'm not here today so I should perhaps stop derailing the meeting ;)
[16:03] <ev> hahaha
[16:03] <ogra_> but after all quality will droip through the cycle and has to be re-established every release
[16:03] <cjwatson> Old fixes - our processes tend to ensure this anyway by demanding that fixes land in the development release before being SRUed
[16:03] <cjwatson> (except near release)
[16:03] <slangasek> ogra_: that's the pattern of the past.  I don't think we should accept it as inevitable for the future.
[16:03] <micahg> so, each LTS should be progressively better, each LTS + 1 should be progressively better
[16:03] <ogra_> slangasek, by doin what ? take over all upstreams ?
[16:04] <ogra_> we dont really have any influence here
[16:04] <slangasek> sure we do
[16:04] <ev> micahg: only if we're chasing quality rather than demanding it up front, the chances of that happening are slim
[16:04] <slangasek> we don't take stuff that's not ready :)
[16:04] <ogra_> tricky :)
[16:04] <ev> micahg: especially over the distance between LTSes
[16:04] <cjwatson> slangasek: I do think auto-syncs would be completely impractical if we applied that standard in general
[16:04] <cjwatson> We can do it for stuff we touch anyway
[16:05] <micahg> ev: it's hard not to break stuff when you land a new everything, I would think the goal is to improve that over time as we have more automated test coverage
[16:05] <ev> suddenly in 3 months of LTS development we have to care about getting *better* than the previous LTS was
[16:05] <ogra_> note that i dont disagree that quality should raise with each release ... i just dont think the way we measure quality id right here
[16:05] <ogra_> *is
[16:05] <xnox> workitems burn-down chart has negative correlation with positive slope on the the errors chart
[16:05] <micahg> ev: I would think that each 2yr LTS cycle the quality gets better so you don't have to chase up quality at the last minute
[16:05] <ev> ogra_: what's wrong with how we're measuring it?
[16:05] <ogra_> since it doesnt apply to the real world scenario
[16:05] <slangasek> cjwatson: yes, another good point
[16:06] <ogra_> ev, if you measure R rigth after the big debian import and compare it to quantal final, R will be highly more unstable at that point
[16:06] <infinity> ev: Well, in an "ideal" world, the number of incidents per day in an LTS should approach 0 as people backport and fix old bugs.  (Sure, it won't reach 0, but that's the goal).
[16:06] <ev> micahg: we shouldn't be landing a new everything unless it's not making the line go up. If it does, reject it until we can show that it doesn't affect stability
[16:06] <infinity> ev: In a new release with new features and new bugs, we can never converge on that line, only on a data point in the past, as Oli points out.
[16:07] <cjwatson> ogra_: That will hopefully change as we move to using -proposed
[16:07] <ev> we shouldn't be giving people a blanket license to upload whatever broken software they want
[16:07] <ev> because "we'll fix it eventually"
[16:07] <ogra_> you need to compare the two points in time, not the final product with a product in the works
[16:07] <cjwatson> The vast majority of auto-sync breakage is just transient dependency kerfuffle, and that's detectable
[16:07] <ev> ogra_: right, and I'm saying we shouldn't do that.
[16:07] <micahg> ev: you can't predict every interaction, over time it will get better, but there will be bumps along the way, one would hope that it's new bumps each time though rather than the old ones
[16:07] <xnox> infinity: well it will reach to 0, because people will upgrade from the LTS to get shiny candy from asterisk or unity or emacs (or whatever tickles their fancy)
[16:07] <ogra_> ev, how else will you accurately measure then ?
[16:07] <ev> if something from an import is proving unstable, kick it out until we can prove otherwise
[16:08]  * cjwatson proposes ev runs the auto-syncs for a while ;-)
[16:08] <infinity> xnox: Neat theory, but plenty of people (including us!) still us hardy in production.
[16:08] <ogra_> my mom uses hardy :)
[16:08] <infinity> s/still us/still use/
[16:08] <xnox> infinity: i remember upgrading from potato last year....
[16:08]  * ogra_ recently discovered that
[16:09] <ev> cjwatson: I'm not saying don't do the autosyncs. I'm saying that if something passes through whatever QA we have and is showing up as buggy on errors.ubuntu.com, and we're not going to immediately fix it, then revert back to the old version.
[16:09] <xnox> ev: should we sync from testing by default then? such that we don't get debian's RC bugs, which will put us behind debian in terms of features, as users are free to run debian unstable to get shiny stuff
[16:09] <infinity> ev: It's also pretty unrealistic (IMO) to say "well, if you land the new GNOME stack and it has new bugs that hurt the pretty graph, we should revert the whole thing until it can all magically be fixed without testers".
[16:09] <ev> infinity: why?
[16:09] <ogra_> ev, what you are proposing means that every package has to be touched ....
[16:09] <ev> I just don't think we can accept these as the rules of the game
[16:10] <ogra_> no more autosyncing etc
[16:10] <ev> I realise our tooling isn't entirely there
[16:10] <ev> but we should focus on that
[16:10] <infinity> ev: Hey, if you want to be the one who figures out how to reliably downgrade everyone to an old GNOME version, be my guest.  But that's wasted effort.
[16:10] <infinity> ev: It's not about "tooling".
[16:10] <ev> rather than focus on continuing to shovel broken software in and throwing our hands in the air when we talk about being able to revert bad decisions
[16:10]  * ogra_ hands ev the manhour back with the last sentence :P
[16:10] <cjwatson> ev: I actually quite seriously think that -proposed will sort out omost of the auto-sync chaos
[16:11] <cjwatson> ev: Given that practically none of the stuff we see on errors.ubuntu.com is auto-synced from Debian; it's nearly all Ubuntu-specific stuff
[16:11] <xnox> ev: what about facebook style deployements "reverts are for suckers" policy which implies "everyone help fix the last deployment NOW"
[16:11] <ev> this is getting slightly off track. It's ultimately unrelated to whether we use those lines as release criteria
[16:11] <ev> xnox: sure
[16:11] <ev> this is why I think we're off track
[16:11] <cjwatson> ev: Which has implied to me for some time that worrying about imports of other people's software is misdirected effort, and we need to get our own in-house-developed software in order instead
[16:11] <ev> even if we accept broken software into the archive
[16:11] <ogra_> xnox, yay, after hours !
[16:11] <ev> we should be fixing that *now*
[16:12] <ev> not in a few releases
[16:12] <infinity> cjwatson: Yeah, I won't disagree with that.
[16:12] <ev> cjwatson: to be honest, I'd like to get to the point where we can measure the actual usage of this software
[16:12] <ev> I think a lot of time is wasted on merges and syncs that are done because people can
[16:12] <ev> and not because anyone is actually using the software
[16:13] <xnox> ogra_: well... it all mater only up to... it's time for my volleyball practice. And by that time US folks are up ;-)
[16:13] <ev> and then we could take the number of people using a package, the number of errors it has, and make a real judgement on whether its worth our investment
[16:13] <ogra_> that surely doesnt apply to main
[16:13] <ev> of qa, engineering, etc
[16:13] <cjwatson> I wonder how much time you think is wasted on auto-syncs; it's not that much
[16:13] <ogra_> (or what MoM lists as main)
[16:13] <stgraber> well, if something isn't widely used, it's unlikely to have an Ubuntu delta, so it's just a "free" auto-sync then
[16:13] <xnox> "free" auto-sync with bugs.
[16:13] <infinity> We'll sometimes carry a small FTBFS delta, but that's never onerous.
[16:14]  * xnox wanted new offlineimap and I am not affected by it's new bug..... yet everyone else is.....
[16:14] <ogra_> stgraber, apart from libs and transitions that come down the drain and need manual intervention on a set of ubuntu maintained bits
[16:14] <infinity> Anything with an actual runtime bugfix kinda implies someone used it and found a bug.
[16:15] <stgraber> ogra_: right, but these are mostly easy/repetitive/scriptable kind of work, not multi-hours kind of merges like we have on some other packages
[16:15] <ogra_> yeah, indeed, but its work nontheless and migth have impact on e-u-c graphs
[16:15] <infinity> Anyhow, we already spend a majority of our engineering time on a tiny subset of the archive, and most of the time people complain about having to fix a transition or touch a package "that doesn't matter", they could have fixed it in the time it took to whine. :P
[16:16] <cjwatson> I also worry about the underlying notion that even if only 1% of our userbase uses something, say, that we can afford to incrementally annoy 1% of our users in slices until they're all gone
[16:16] <stgraber> xnox: for something that doesn't have an Ubuntu delta, I prefer being in sync with Debian so that we can directly forward any bug report there than run an old version that's supposedly more stable (we don't really know) and where when it breaks we'd just be told that we're using an outdated version
[16:17] <ev> cjwatson: I think the data (if we ever get it) will first show that our userbase isn't a collection of 1% slices
[16:17] <cjwatson> I'd much rather be very inclusive of the long tail
[16:17] <stgraber> cjwatson: +1 on the whining is taking up way more time than actually fixing it :)
[16:17] <xnox> stgraber: yeah... I uploaded into debian ;-)
[16:18] <cjwatson> ev: I also think that the effort of discussing most of this exceeds the effort involved in leaving it there :-)
[16:18] <ev> :)
[16:18]  * infinity thinks that perhaps this meeting has run its course, and it's time for us to plan an in-person sprint, with boxing gloves.
[16:18] <ev> yes please
[16:18] <cjwatson> 1% is a random number obviously but I have at least some anecdotal evidence in the form of upset messages in my inbox from a reasonable percentage of the packages I remove from the archive
[16:19] <cjwatson> Many of which I thought were so obscure nobody would care
[16:19] <cjwatson> It turns out we have users who care about different business-specific requirements ;-)
[16:19] <ev> cjwatson: we could always work out a system whereby it got copied to another pocket
[16:19] <ev> instead of removed entirely
[16:19] <ev> err moved
[16:19] <ev> one that our users don't have to deal with
[16:19] <infinity> ev: That's just adding complexity, I don't see how that fixes anything.
[16:19] <cjwatson> Well, this was stuff that had been removed from Debian, generally
[16:19] <ev> ah
[16:19] <cjwatson> Not removing it means we assume responsibility
[16:20] <slangasek> geez, y'all are still going? :)
[16:20] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[16:20] <ogra_> haha
[16:20] <infinity> \o/
[16:20] <cjwatson> So I think those removals were generally correct, but even in those should-be-fairly-uncontroversial cases, a good fraction of the removals cause user upset
[16:20] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[16:20] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 12 16:20:20 2012 UTC.
[16:20] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-15.01.moin.txt
[16:20] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-15.01.html
[16:20] <cjwatson> The man's right :)
[16:20]  * cjwatson distracted by argument
[16:20] <infinity> I'm going to /part and avoid being suckered into continuing this argument today. :P
[16:22] <stgraber> :)
[17:33]  * highvoltage has managed to avoid arguments all day long so far


[16:52] <h00k> Holy flooding in Duluth, batman.
[16:52] <h00k> ripps: you alive?
[17:18] <tonyyarusso> I kind of want to bring my canoe up there just to be able to say I paddled down the Interstate :P
[17:25] <h00k> I wonder how everything on Michigan street is :|
[17:25] <h00k> especially places with basements
[17:25] <h00k> like the Electric Fetus