[00:00] <Lns> which is the case with ltsp-client-setup
[00:00] <LaserJock> ok, but you still gotta do the work
[00:00] <LaserJock> that's the problem
[00:00] <stgraber> Lns: well for LTSP, we didn't do it for Intrepid either so ... :)
[00:01] <LaserJock> when you gotta support 3-4 releases while also trying to get a new release out
[00:01] <LaserJock> it can get really hard to prioritize
[00:01] <Lns> LaserJock: Yeah, it sounds a bit crazy, doesn't it?
[00:01] <stgraber> Lns: it's clearly a manpower issue, I did some good job for Jaunty (I believe) but I could still use some people doing the SRU work because I just don't have a minute for that :)
[00:02] <Lns> stgraber: Here's the million dollar question
[00:02] <Lns> What can a non-programmer do to help LTS releases become more stable?
[00:02] <LaserJock> report and test
[00:02] <Lns> besides filing SRU requests and twiddling his thumbs?
[00:02] <ogra> right, teast early
[00:02] <Lns> LaserJock: I do both...
[00:02] <ogra> *before* release
[00:03] <stgraber> report bugs and test fixes. I can easily find people to do these two but I need someone to actually do the fix :)
[00:03] <LaserJock> Lns: awesome
[00:03] <stgraber> ogra: +1
[00:03] <LaserJock> heck yeah
[00:03] <LaserJock> that's we've *never* gotten people to do much
[00:03] <Lns> how can one test a pre-release without a complete test environment with the same users, etc?
[00:03] <stgraber> for now, I'm mainly focusing on providing a stable LTSP in the next release so hopefully we won't need SRU for Jaunty :)
[00:04] <Lns> stgraber: I fear you are too optimistic for your own good ;)
[00:04] <stgraber> Lns: I have a backport of current LTSP in my PPA
[00:04] <stgraber> Lns: so you can run it on Intrepid (sorry, no Hardy :))
[00:04] <Lns> not downplaying anything you do whatsoever.. it just never works that way (for me anyway) :)
[00:04] <stgraber> and have some people using it and reporting bugs
[00:04] <ogra> well, i personally think that ltsp5 is nearly in the state of going into maintenance mode ... which means devs can focus on polish and cleanup, all features are there
[00:05] <Lns> ogra: but with the underlying software constantly changing...there will always be issues that come up
[00:05] <ogra> within the next one or two releases you should only have to adjust to distro specific changes that show up in a new release
[00:05] <Lns> by underlying i mean OS
[00:05] <ogra> right
[00:05] <ogra> but the past of ltsp was always focused on feature development
[00:06] <ogra> the rest was held together by duct tape
[00:06] <LaserJock> there's a whole lotta duct tape around here ;-)
[00:06] <ogra> nobody had the time to look at replacing the interim solutions with better ones
[00:06] <stgraber> running Jaunty's LTSP in production helped a lot for the bugfix part :)
[00:06] <ogra> now ltsp itself is at the feature completeness state
[00:07] <Lns> ogra: !!! you can't say that, i have so many ideas! =)
[00:07] <ogra> so the interim solutions can actually be improved
[00:07] <ogra> Lns, send patches then :)
[00:07] <ogra> *before* release :P
[00:07] <Lns> ogra: =p~
[00:07] <stgraber> hmm, my LTSP todolist is quite small actually but that's the by-Thursday one so ... :) (feature freeze)
[00:07] <ogra> shellscripts arent *that* hard
[00:08] <LaserJock> that's the thing, we gotta  do stuff *before* release
[00:08] <stgraber> Lns: by thursday actually if that's a new feature :)
[00:08] <Lns> well i don't see any feasable way to test pre-release releases in the same environment that needs to be stable 24x7...
[00:08] <Lns> and i know, stable != lts
[00:09] <Lns> but to me, it is because the app software/etc doesn't change
[00:09] <LaserJock> Lns: that's precisely why we have problems
[00:09] <LaserJock> we need to figure out how to test this stuff
[00:09] <Lns> LaserJock: I hate to say it but it seems to me that the release priorities are just ...off.
[00:10] <ogra> ??
[00:10] <LaserJock> Lns: how so?
[00:10] <Lns> well
[00:10] <dtchen> Lns: why not ask the launchpad developers? they run edge and staging alongside the stable production.
[00:10] <Lns> just look at my example...i run LTS because I can't handle daily updates, updates breaking apps/functionality, etc
[00:11] <dtchen> all three (edgy, staging, stable production) access the same db
[00:11] <Lns> I run it because it's been run over with a fine toothed comb by hundreds of people over a longer period of time
[00:11] <dtchen> s/edgy/edge/
[00:11] <LaserJock> Lns: Hardy was getting much more updates than Intrepid
[00:12] <Lns> I've done the non-LTS route before. I can't go that route again because i just trade old bugs for new ones.
[00:12] <LaserJock> sure
[00:12] <Lns> it's a catch 22.
[00:12] <LaserJock> yep
[00:12] <ogra> well, it also had the hint o not pgrade production systems before 8.04.1
[00:12] <ogra> *to
[00:12] <LaserJock> that's why you gotta make sure to test before implementing
[00:12] <Lns> ogra: and i don't try to do that either, at least for the next one. Hardy was the first LTS i stood tall on.
[00:12] <stgraber> I don't run regular Intrepid (-updates + -security) but running it with -proposed I only get one or two update a week in average and it's probably a lot less if you don't have -proposed
[00:12] <ogra> *especially* because theer was the hope to get bugs and testing from people running the actual 8.04
[00:13] <ogra> since we dont get neough testing before release
[00:13] <ogra> it all boils down to comunity participation in QA during the development releases
[00:13] <ogra> only if you have that you can do quality releases
[00:14] <ogra> ubuntu turned definately from a participant distro into a consume distro over the releases ... and thats the prob here
[00:14] <ogra> not the release policy
[00:14] <ogra> *consumer
[00:15] <Lns> ogra: I agree...but the biggest roadblock for people in my situation is that I don't have the resources to have a fully featured test lab for this stuff, and i simply can't run my clients' servers on stuff for testing and reporting purposes. Students need to learn, and they need a system with as few bugs as possible to do this effectively.
[00:16] <Lns> it's not LTSP, or Ubuntu, it's just stability.
[00:17] <LaserJock> so the question is, how can we get pre-release testing going better
[00:17] <Lns> I wish I could, truly. /me looks at his Ubuntu hoodie he's wearing right now - but I have to run my business so my clients dont dump me.
[00:17] <Lns> LaserJock: good q
[00:17] <stgraber> It's probably because I'm both upstream+packager but I tend to prefer my users running a recent version that I know I can fix and publish the fix than running an old "stable" version where the users will just get stuck with that annoying bug for weeks/months before it gets fixed
[00:18] <Lns> I have an answer, but canonical doesn't like it for some reason
[00:18] <Lns> which is strange, because it involves me giving them $$$
[00:18] <Lns> and probably tons of others
[00:19] <LaserJock> you want to pay for a test lab?
[00:19] <Lns> I would be MORE than willing to pay for LTS support, if it promised quick SRUs (at least as quick as bugfixes in devel releases) and it wasn't on a per-server basis. More like a per-SRU basis..
[00:20] <Lns> LaserJock: yeah, and pay two hundred kids to beat the crap out of it every day ;)
[00:20] <ogra> well, then rather pay fifty fultime devs and donate their worktime to the project ;)
[00:20] <ogra> instead of 200 kids
[00:21] <ogra> (you will run into less legal probs with that as well *g*)
[00:21] <stgraber> I guess one fulltime would probably be enough for the SRU part :)
[00:21] <Lns> ogra: exactly.
[00:21] <Lns> I thought about registering just one site as my "supported" site so i could get affordable lts support, but i don't want to cheat.
[00:21] <Lns> I just want to pay canonical to fix bugs in hardy for me and my clients, no matter how many clients I have.
[00:21] <Lns> for the same price, since it's still just one bug.
[00:22] <LaserJock> Lns: well, it's not exactly easy
[00:22] <Lns> I understand
[00:22] <LaserJock> for instance, there isn't anybody currently to do so
[00:22] <Lns> but money helps, right? at least for the cherry picking, non-fun things.
[00:23] <Lns> and last time i heard, canonical wanted money. ;)
[00:23] <LaserJock> I don't know actually
[00:23] <LaserJock> Mark's got ~ $1bil.
[00:23] <LaserJock> I'm sure Canonical wants money, but I'm not sure that's the blocker
[00:24] <Lns> what could be then? Lots of coders want paying jobs
[00:24] <Lns> and paying jobs require them to do things that might not be so much fun, but they get a paycheck.
[00:24] <Lns> so....
[00:26] <Lns> what better development cycle would it be to have the people at the top be true OSS programmers, who do things the way they do now, and then employ people to fix their mistakes when they don't have time to?
[00:26] <Lns> (payed by people like me, who get paid from companies/schools to deploy and service the networks the OSS runs on)
[00:27] <LaserJock> generally I think the paid people just keep things kinda going
[00:27] <LaserJock> community management, etc.
[00:28] <Lns> LaserJock: the currently paid people at canonical you mean?
[00:28] <LaserJock> I mean we don't have any paid people
[00:29] <LaserJock> so the things that paid people can do are largely management and gap-filling
[00:30] <Lns> LaserJock: why? Why can't canonical employ people for SRU work in LTS releases which they get paid big $$ for ?
[00:30] <ogra> who is dong the interviews ?
[00:30] <Lns> ogra: management?
[00:30] <Lns> am i thinking of canonical wrong?
[00:31] <ogra> the only competent people that can judge if soeone is qualified are the persons working 16h/day already
[00:31] <Lns> ogra: intriguing, and you're right
[00:31] <Lns> how bout a community-based hiring process
[00:31] <Lns> voting, karma, etc.
[00:32] <LaserJock> but we don't really have anybody
[00:32] <ogra> if your applicants come from the community that helps indeed
[00:32] <LaserJock> but if we're building community in the first place
[00:32] <Lns> ogra: exactly.
[00:32] <stgraber> do we have anyone doing LTSP work and willing to do it fulltime that's currently unemployed ? :)
[00:32] <LaserJock> we can more or less solve the problem
[00:32] <ogra> but we're at a growth rate where the community starts to get drained
[00:33] <Lns> right, and that will always be the case
[00:33] <Lns> as it is with any company
[00:33] <Lns> or project
[00:33] <Lns> or anything in life really...you do what you can do until you can't, then you get others' help
[00:33] <ogra> where are these others ß
[00:33] <ogra> ?
[00:33] <Lns> and it gets bigger, and more people start using ubuntu, therefore more work is to be done for the people using it
[00:34] <ogra> right
[00:34] <ogra> thats what i meant by "consumer distro"
[00:34] <Lns> ogra: the "others" are people that want to be paid canonical employees
[00:34] <LaserJock> yeah, it really has changed
[00:34] <ogra> the amount of users largely outweights the amount of developers
[00:34] <ogra> and the amount of users still grows
[00:34] <Lns> hopefully that will always be the case :)
[00:35] <ogra> Lns, which others
[00:35] <Lns> we do want more users, right?
[00:35] <LaserJock> the amount of users grows but the number of devs isn't
[00:35] <ogra> send me some resumes for good ARM people
[00:35] <Lns> ogra: i can post a craigslist ad right now that would do the trick
[00:35] <ogra> and i'll have some extra time for ltsp
[00:36] <Lns> or monster.com, or careerbuilder.com....or whatever else
[00:36] <ogra> me currently does the work for three planned positions that are not filled
[00:36] <stgraber> ogra: argh, still haven't found some goods embeded developers ?
[00:36] <ogra> and yes, we're doing plenty of interviews every week
[00:36] <Lns> "WANTED: Experienced open-source developer wanted for ARM architecture work on Ubuntu operating system."
[00:36] <ogra> stgraber, two more already, but still two to go
[00:37] <LaserJock> and Edubuntu still lacks somebody
[00:37] <LaserJock> which would make SRUs a lot easier, IMO
[00:37] <ogra> Lns, right and you get 100 rplies of which 90 are windows admins that had a 1 week linux training in their last NT4 admin job
[00:38] <Lns> ogra: grep the resumes. :)
[00:38] <Lns> wow, hail!
[00:38] <stgraber> Lns: http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/ is usually well-known among people with Ubuntu experiences and looking for a job
[00:39] <ogra> Lns, grepping insnt enough ... you have to read them ...
[00:39] <ogra> any idea how much worktime you burn reading 100 resumes 5 ages each ?
[00:39] <ogra> *pages
[00:39] <ogra> its a painfully slow process to find the best guys
[00:40] <Lns> ogra: how about this: require very strict guidelines for the resume. Require ODF format. Require them to state which projects they've worked on, with code/patch examples, etc.
[00:40] <Lns> Less resumes, better quality.
[00:40] <LaserJock> well, you need to difne clearly the problem we're trying to solve
[00:41] <ogra> and you miss the one super talented guy who is just bad in writing resumes :P
[00:41] <LaserJock> we can talk Human Resources for a while
[00:41] <Lns> ogra: =p there's always a risk!
[00:41] <LaserJock> but I think that's a side issue
[00:41] <ogra> right, it is
[00:41] <LaserJock> the issue is SRUs and in general growing dev community
[00:41] <ogra> but hiring good people is a slow process thats what i wanted to point out :)
[00:42] <Lns> LaserJock: isn't it safe to say that SRUs are "less fun" to provide than simply fixing the dev code?
[00:42] <LaserJock> yeah
[00:42] <Lns> ok
[00:42] <LaserJock> more paperwork
[00:42] <LaserJock> but some people dig it
[00:42] <ogra> fixing the dev code is always easier
[00:42] <Lns> so, the current developers want to fix dev code, which means we have less devs for SRUs
[00:42] <ogra> the prob is that the probem isnt known while the code is dev code
[00:43] <LaserJock> Lns: I don't think it's an interest problem
[00:43] <ogra> so we're back to "test *before* release"
[00:43] <stgraber> I can upload a new release of ltsp/ldm/ltspfs/italc/... in a few seconds but it takes weeks and paperwork for a SRU, which one do I choose ? :)
[00:43] <Lns> LaserJock: hrm
[00:43] <Lns> stgraber: hrrrmmm
[00:43]  * Lns churns
[00:43] <LaserJock> it's time-consuming work and it involved a fair amount of coordination
[00:44] <LaserJock> and we're supposed to fix things in dev releases first
[00:44] <Lns> right
[00:44] <LaserJock> what we need is more hands
[00:44] <Lns> but that's bad news for service companies like mine
[00:44] <LaserJock> it's bad news for everybody
[00:46] <Lns> we almost need a spin-off company that handles only SRUs for slower moving LTS releases
[00:46] <LaserJock> why?
[00:46] <Lns> because it could provide the resources necessary to handle SRUs?
[00:46] <Lns> LaserJock what we need is more hands
[00:46] <LaserJock> right
[00:47] <LaserJock> we need more hands, period
[00:47] <Lns> rihgt
[00:47] <LaserJock> you're not likely to hire people just to do SRUs
[00:47] <Lns> but we need more hands for SRUs specifically in this conversation
[00:47] <Lns> why not?
[00:47] <Lns> I would
[00:47] <LaserJock> because it's not exactly exciting work
[00:47] <Lns> neither is janitorial services
[00:47] <Lns> but people need to survive, and you need money to survive
[00:48] <Lns> (unfortunately)
[00:48] <LaserJock> no, but you don't have the janitor teaching your important classes
[00:48] <Lns> sure, but they keep the bathrooms clean, so people don't get sick
[00:48] <Lns> just as important
[00:48] <LaserJock> SRUs are one of the most difficult dev tasks
[00:48] <stgraber> unfortunately the same people will get an interresting job from someone else then (involving development, not SRU ...)
[00:48] <Lns> blargh
[00:48] <stgraber> you need developers for SRU and developers don't like doing SRUs because they like to actually develop the software :)
[00:49] <LaserJock> bottom line though, we need more people
[00:49] <Lns> you guys are too pessimistic for me :)
[00:49] <LaserJock> nah ;-)
[00:49] <Lns> hehe
[00:49] <LaserJock> I just think we need to think a bit simpler here
[00:49] <LaserJock> we need hands
[00:49] <Lns> stgraber: developers will do what they don't like because they get paid. They won't get paid for fun dev work, because that doesn't pay.
[00:49] <LaserJock> that will fix a lot of things
[00:50] <stgraber> Lns: well, I'm being paid for fun dev work :)
[00:50] <Lns> stgraber: good for you, you're a lucky one apparently :)
[00:50] <Lns> as long as the community is still the focus, and the community is what decides on important issues (stability of SRUs, fixes, everything), i don't see what would be a downfall of employing SRU specific coders.
[00:51] <Lns> there's a business model that screams out for this already, i'm just one small company that would make use of it.
[00:51] <LaserJock> you need *people*
[00:51] <LaserJock> SRU will take care of itself
[00:52] <LaserJock> you want the people who put the code in the dev release to put it in -updates
[00:52] <Lns> LaserJock: why?
[00:52] <Lns> why not have those people focus on -dev work, and employ people to fix bugs, and simply look over them to make sure they're good?
[00:52] <LaserJock> because the person who changes the code initially is the best to propogate them
[00:53] <Lns> we're still keeping the power with the people who need it.
[00:53] <Lns> LaserJock: that's a mindset that keeps any project from truly evolving.
[00:53] <Lns> no offense at all intended of course.
[00:53] <LaserJock> heh
[00:53] <LaserJock> non taken
[00:53] <LaserJock> but I've been at this a little while
[00:53] <Lns> case in point though: my dad was an appliance repairman.
[00:54] <Lns> he didn't want to trust any of his business to anyone, because he was the mastermind.
[00:54] <Lns> so he never hired anyone.
[00:54] <LaserJock> you have multiple people touching the same code you easily end up with things falling through the cracks and long delays
[00:54] <Lns> He did the books, the labor, the relations.
[00:54] <Lns> And he was so burnt out that things started slipping through the cracks, and nothing was 'ideal'.
[00:54] <LaserJock> sure
[00:55] <LaserJock> but I think that's a good case for teamwork
[00:55] <Lns> sure
[00:55] <LaserJock> not necessarily multiple people touching the same code
[00:55] <Lns> what's the diff?
[00:55] <LaserJock> because, for a given change, the same person should drive that change
[00:55] <LaserJock> however multiple people can be working in parallel
[00:56] <Lns> so what's with "give me a patch and I'll implement it" speak of so many OSS project maintainers?
[00:56] <LaserJock> that's what I'm talking about
[00:56] <LaserJock> but I'm saying "implement" = "implement wherever it needs to go"
[00:57] <LaserJock> I'm looking at a bug fix as a discrete object
[00:57] <LaserJock> if you fix it somewhere, fix it *everywhere*
[00:57] <Lns> sure, of course.
[00:57] <Lns> it's portable, more dynamic and easily modified.
[00:58] <Lns> so how about the devs fixing the bugs in -devel, passing the patches to the SRU people and say "make it work in LTS." After that, review the SRU patches and give it the go ahead.
[00:58] <Lns> the devs will always know what's going on, but the hard/crappy work is handed to someone else.
[00:58] <LaserJock> or ... have the dev people do SRUs where appropriate :-)
[00:59] <Lns> LaserJock: as you said, we don't have enough to do that.
[00:59] <Lns> and it's not as fun.
[00:59] <LaserJock> ok, but that's not gonna change
[00:59] <Lns> sure it can
[00:59] <LaserJock> as you get people you get SRUs
[00:59]  * Lns has to leave in a couple min
[00:59] <Lns> LaserJock: what's the harm in people that specialize in SRUs though?
[01:00] <Lns> there already are, right?
[01:00] <LaserJock> no
[01:00] <Lns> wouldn't that be a good thing(tm) ?
[01:00] <LaserJock> not in my opinion
[01:00] <Lns> they'd be experts in backporting/cherry picking.
[01:01] <stgraber> backporting/cherry picking also means knowing the software you're working on
[01:01] <Lns> they're still managed by the devs..but they do the heavy lifting
[01:01] <stgraber> otherwise you'll just break things
[01:01] <Lns> stgraber: ^^^
[01:01] <LaserJock> yep
[01:01] <Lns> its just enlistment of extra help.
[01:01] <LaserJock> then let's enlist help *period*
[01:02] <LaserJock> that will fix more than just the SRU issue
[01:02] <Lns> LaserJock: remember, dev work is more fun than SRU work. they'll always go away to do something more fun for free.
[01:02] <LaserJock> no
[01:02] <LaserJock> that's not right
[01:02] <LaserJock> people will do what needs to get done
[01:02] <Lns> how so? those are your words :)
[01:03] <LaserJock> SRUs aren't fun, but that doesn't mean people don't do them
[01:03] <Lns> LaserJock: right, but "needs" is relative to who you're talking to.
[01:03] <LaserJock> that's why you have management
[01:03] <Lns> I "need" SRUs for hardy. but you "need" to fix devel bugs first.
[01:03] <LaserJock> no
[01:04] <LaserJock> I'm looking at all needs trying to get things done as best we can with the resources we can
[01:05] <Lns> LaserJock: if we don't think our resources will expand, we'll never get anywhere
[01:05] <Lns> we have to focus on getting more people involved
[01:05] <LaserJock> I think they will
[01:05] <LaserJock> right
[01:05] <Lns> ok
[01:05] <LaserJock> I totally agree we need to get more people involved
[01:05] <LaserJock> I just think focusing on SRUs is the wrong way to get more
[01:05] <LaserJock> because it's sucky work
[01:05] <Lns> i know :)
[01:06] <Lns> but look at it from my perspective
[01:06] <Lns> I need that sucky work to get done
[01:06] <LaserJock> sure
[01:06] <Lns> like...way faster than -devel patches
[01:06] <LaserJock> so does Edubuntu
[01:06] <Lns> right
[01:06] <Lns> so we need people involved that will do the SRUs
[01:06] <Lns> and i know what you said
[01:07] <LaserJock> right
[01:07] <LaserJock> you're representing a particular need
[01:07] <Lns> maybe it's an issue with what someone considers their "job title" or equiv for this
[01:07] <LaserJock> one I'm painfully aware of
[01:08] <Lns> we have to have some people focus on certain tasks, with oversight from the collective
[01:08] <Lns> otherwise everyone is doing everything, and it's not productive
[01:08] <LaserJock> the problem is, we don't even have people on the dev release
[01:08] <Lns> too many cooks in the kitchen
[01:08] <LaserJock> it's stgraber and myself
[01:08] <LaserJock> stgraber doesn't have time for SRUs really
[01:08] <Lns> i don't doubt that one bit
[01:08] <LaserJock> and I don't have much
[01:08] <Lns> I'm astonished at the things you all get done currently, it's amazing
[01:09] <Lns> i could never handle something like that
[01:09] <LaserJock> so if we could get more people that would either 1) find some SRU types or 2) free stgraber and myself to do SRUs
[01:10] <LaserJock> either way, more people helps solve the problem
[01:10] <stgraber> sbalneav was wanting to give a hand at that but he's likely even more busy than I'm :)
[01:10] <Lns> LaserJock: IMHO we need specific focus and direction for us all
[01:11] <LaserJock> well
[01:11] <Lns> obviously everyone has a preference on what they'd like to work on
[01:11] <Lns> so let the experts do the expert work in their field, whether it's development, security, SRUs, etc.
[01:11] <LaserJock> exactly
[01:11] <LaserJock> but we don't *have* any experts :-)
[01:12] <Lns> again, $$$ helps prime :)
[01:12] <LaserJock> not sure
[01:12] <Lns> maybe we won't need $$$ later on if the community grows organically
[01:12] <Lns> but i bet it would help grow the community initially anyway
[01:12] <Lns> maybe canonical is just an interim company that helps evolve ubuntu
[01:13] <LaserJock> it's just gonna take quite a bit to get something like that going
[01:13] <Lns> i dunno, maybe i'll think about subcontracting/hiring some people interested in doing what i need done specifically
[01:13] <Lns> when i have the resources myself...given i am a 2 man company
[01:14] <Lns> LaserJock: you gotta start somewhere
[01:14] <Lns> anyway, i need to go home :)
[01:15] <Lns> thank you all for the input.. my gears are turning, and i hope to contribute more to the big picture soon
[01:15] <Lns> that will benefit us all
[01:16] <Lns> cheers!
[01:18] <stgraber> LaserJock: btw, I remember you poking me last week asking me when I'd have time to talk ? Do you still have something to discuss ? :)
[01:19] <LaserJock> stgraber: just seeing what's up with LTSP
[01:20] <stgraber> I'm currently doing some testing trying to get rid of ipconfig and using a real dhcp client instead (udhcpc) but that'll need a MIR and may be a bit hard to get before FF ...
[01:20] <stgraber> though the initramfs scripts will run fine even if udhcpc isn't installed, using it only if installed in the chroot. So it'd rock if I can get it in for Jaunty but won't be a big issue if I can't.
[01:21] <stgraber> other than that, it's mainly improving ltsp-cluster, bug fixing and preparing a few new upstream to be uploaded before FF
[01:21] <stgraber> I actually almost finished the first deployment of Intrepid-based ltsp-cluster using Jaunty's LTSP, so far no problem so Jaunty's LTSP is as far as I'm concerned production ready :)
[03:12] <nothingman> hi, all
[03:12] <LaserJock> hi nothingman
[03:14] <nothingman> what's new?
[03:46] <LaserJock> nothingman: not much
[03:55] <nothingman> I've been trying to set up a vbox pxe client to test with on the fly
[03:55] <nothingman> it hangs on tftp though
[15:53] <billbalt> I'm trying to figure out how to change education programs to work in Spanish. Any hints?
[16:25] <LaserJock> morgs: ping
[17:16] <LaserJock> anybody around?
[17:16] <LaserJock> I need some naming help
[17:27] <jelkner> hi all
[17:27] <LaserJock> hi jelkner
[17:28] <jelkner> i noticed some postings on the mailing list awhile back, and was wondering if this is the place to come to talk about getting scratch working on ubuntu
[17:28] <jelkner> LaserJock: hi man!
[17:29] <jelkner> scratch is truly one of the coolest pieces of educational software i've ever seen
[17:29] <jelkner> this is the second year i have experimented with it with my students
[17:29] <LaserJock> cool
[17:30] <jelkner> it is a constructivists dream tool
[17:30] <jelkner> students don't want to stop using it
[17:30] <jelkner> (even when class is supposed to be over!)
[17:30] <LaserJock> well, basically we need to do 2 things. 1) get Squeak updated/maintained and 2) package scratch up
[17:31] <jelkner> there is already some effort on the scratch side
[17:32] <LaserJock> if edubuntu-devel was part of the discussion of that effort then it may help
[17:33] <jelkner> i hope so
[17:33] <jelkner> i just wanted to lend my voice to the chorus singing about how important this is
[17:33] <LaserJock> sure, yeah
[17:33] <LaserJock> we'd love to see scratch get in
[17:34] <LaserJock> and we'd love it even more if we could get it in a free component (Universe/Main)
[17:34] <jelkner> from what i understand there has been progress in that direction
[17:35] <jelkner> http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Linux_installer
[17:35] <jelkner> i'm running scratch now from the debian/ubuntu package on the scratch site
[17:35] <LaserJock> the problem is we don't have a free Squeak
[17:36] <jelkner> the problem is with multimedia things
[17:36] <jelkner> sounds don't work
[17:36] <jelkner> nor does image morphing
[17:39] <jelkner> LaserJock: do you know any other folks on our end following up on this?
[17:40] <jelkner> is there any way i could help?
[17:40] <jelkner> i'm not in a position to contribute to the code
[17:40] <jelkner> we have too many other python based projects going on
[17:40] <LaserJock> jelkner: well, finding somebody in the squeak/scratch community who would like to at least help maintain it would be awesome
[17:41] <LaserJock> I can help guide and sponsor work
[17:41] <LaserJock> but I can't maintain the whole thing myself
[17:41] <jelkner> did you see the link?
[17:41] <jelkner> they seem to be doing that already
[17:41] <jelkner> i just wanted to make sure all the right communication is taking place
[17:41] <LaserJock> jelkner: but not *in* ubuntu
[17:41] <LaserJock> exactly, and it's not
[17:42] <jelkner> so what would the process be to help fix that?
[17:42] <LaserJock> I need to have people email edubuntu-devel
[17:42] <LaserJock> I currently can't be on everybodies mailing list pushing them along :-)
[17:42] <jelkner> so i should start with that?
[17:42] <jelkner> of course
[17:43] <jelkner> i'll email edubuntu-devel and let them know how important i think this is
[17:43] <LaserJock> if you could encourage people who are interested in Squeak/Scratch in Ubuntu to start some conversations on edubuntu-devel I'd be glad to do what I can to help that along
[17:43] <LaserJock> the issue is less knowing that it's important
[17:43] <LaserJock> but rather getting people who know what they're doing plugged into the process
[17:43] <jelkner> ahh
[17:44] <jelkner> i don't know how to do that
[17:44] <jelkner> i could send the email if you think it would help
[17:44] <LaserJock> jelkner: if you can find the people in Scratch doing the Debian/Ubuntu installer and see if they'd talk to edubuntu-devel
[17:44] <LaserJock> I think that'd be a significant help
[17:44] <jelkner> ok, i'll approach it from that direction then
[17:44] <LaserJock> so far I've gotten quite a few people who want to see it in
[17:44] <jelkner> thanks
[17:45] <LaserJock> I just haven't heard from anybody actually wanting to take on the work
[17:45] <jelkner> typical story unfortunately :-(
[17:45] <LaserJock> yep
[17:45] <jelkner> especially with things like this
[17:45] <jelkner> we are just educators who know how great a tool it is
[17:45] <LaserJock> but if we can plug in a Squeak/Scratch dev into the Ubuntu dev community then it'd be a big wiin
[17:45] <jelkner> but we don't have the where with all to do the work on it
[17:46] <jelkner> so i'll look into that
[17:46] <jelkner> thanks again
[17:46] <LaserJock> awesome
[17:46] <LaserJock> no, thank *you*
[17:46] <LaserJock> this is the sort of thing the educators can help with
[17:46] <jelkner> got it
[17:46]  * jelkner goes off to poke around the Scratch community...
[18:35] <LaserJock> Lns: morning
[18:35] <Lns> LaserJock: morning! =)
[18:57] <Lns> LaserJock: so what are you exciting projects currently?
[18:57] <LaserJock> trying to stay afloat at the moment :-)
[18:57] <LaserJock> ok, so I talked with some people about abiword
[18:58] <LaserJock> and email got sent to the Debian maintainer about splitting out the lib, etc.
[18:58] <LaserJock> jelkner dropped by to ask about getting Scratch in Ubuntu, he's gonna talk with them to try to find some Squeak/Scratch maintainers
[18:59] <LaserJock> I really really need to finalize the name for the Universe app bundles though
[18:59] <Lns> what are the candidates?
[19:00] <LaserJock> I liked edubuntu-extras-*
[19:00] <LaserJock> but nubae didn't
[19:00] <LaserJock> we can do just edubuntu-*
[19:00] <LaserJock> edubuntu-*-universe
[19:01] <Lns> these are for "extra" packaged apps such as abiword? what's in there?
[19:01] <LaserJock> it's going to be relatively high-demand, useful edu apps that are in Universe
[19:02] <LaserJock> abiword wouldn't be one since it's in Main
[19:02] <Lns> right
[19:02] <LaserJock> childsplay perhaps
[19:02] <Lns> did you guys decide against simply edu-?
[19:02] <Lns> don't wanna open a can of worms at the moment, just curious :)
[19:03] <LaserJock> well, the Main ones are ubuntu-edu-*
[19:05] <Lns> argh phone
[19:16] <Lns> back
[19:16] <Lns> cool..i was for ubuntu-edu-*
[19:16] <Lns> :)
[19:19] <Lns> LaserJock: so what's wrong with ubuntu-edu-extras-*?
[19:19] <LaserJock> it's rather long
[19:19] <Lns> but consistent! =)
[19:19] <LaserJock> well, if I was going for consistency I'd got edubuntu-* ;-)
[19:20] <Lns> hmm...
[19:20]  * Lns has always been a fan of consistency
[19:29] <LaserJock> Lns: any suggestions?
[19:31] <Lns> LaserJock: personally i don't see anything wrong with ubuntu-edu-extras-*
[19:31] <LaserJock> k
[19:31] <Lns> there's plenty of packages with longer names
[19:31] <LaserJock> edubuntu-edu-extras-preschool doesn't seem toolong?
[19:31] <Lns> and at least they'd be easy to group together and understand
[19:32] <Lns> nope
[19:32] <Lns> i think it's a very good description actually
[19:32] <Lns> and you can apt-cache search it very easily along with the other package names
[19:32] <Lns> oh wait
[19:32] <Lns> you mean ubuntu-edu-extras-preschool ?
[19:32] <Lns> not edubuntu-edu
[19:33] <Lns> (that's a bit redundant ;) )
[19:33] <LaserJock> yes, sorry
[19:33] <LaserJock> muscle habit
[19:33] <Lns> then yeah
[19:33] <Lns> haha
[19:33] <Lns> $ apt-cache search ubuntu-edu
[19:33] <Lns> will bring up everything we would want :)
[19:51] <Lns> hello alkisg
[19:52] <alkisg> Hey Lns, what's the good word? :)
[19:52] <alkisg> (I learned that from you :P)
[19:53] <Lns> alkisg: =p
[19:53] <Lns> the good word is ...."ltsp".
[19:53] <Lns> And also "edu"
[19:53] <alkisg> Heh... any java speedups?
[19:54] <Lns> alkisg: nope, but I just triaged the LP bug w/freedesktop bug
[19:54] <Lns> like...2 seconds ago
[19:54] <alkisg> Erm.. this one? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxcb/+bug/277069
[19:55] <Lns> yep
[19:55]  * Lns hopes he was supposed to do that
[19:56] <Lns> Sometimes I get messed up in what tasks to perform on a bug so people can collab better
[19:56] <alkisg> Hmm... ok, on to the next bug: solving the firefox right-click delay :)
[19:57] <Lns> alkisg: haven't heard of that yet
[19:57] <Lns> url me ?
[19:59] <alkisg> I don't know where I saw it (bug report or mailing list), but it's a known bug, and there was some talking recently about it
[19:59] <alkisg> Let me check...
[19:59] <Lns> well there SHOULD be a bug report on it if it's known.... ;)
[20:00] <alkisg> Here are some links<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:00] <alkisg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xulrunner-1.9/+bug/305531
[20:02] <Lns> alkisg: interesting, i dont' have that issue at all
[20:03] <Lns> I'm on FF3.0.6
[20:03] <alkisg> Lns, ahm, I think it's an intrepid issue?
[20:03] <alkisg> I don't remember having it in hardy...
[20:03] <Lns> ahh, ok
[20:04] <Lns> ii  xulrunner-1.9                              <IP_ADDRESS>+nobinonly-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS> + ii  xulrunner-1.9-gnome-support                <IP_ADDRESS>+nobinonly-0ubuntu<IP_ADDRESS>
[20:04] <alkisg> Lns, you're on hardy now? Try ssh -X and then firefox...
[20:04] <Lns> alkisg: yes
[20:04] <alkisg> OK, ssh -Y localhost
[20:04] <Lns> from a tc?
[20:04] <alkisg> Then run firefox, right click and see if it takes more than a second
[20:04] <alkisg> No, from the server / your PC
[20:04] <alkisg> It's not ltsp related
[20:05] <alkisg> Or just run firefox from a TC
[20:05] <Lns> i'm on a thin client.. i can't do that :( i'd have to vnc into the server
[20:05] <Lns> oh
[20:05] <Lns> well i do that all the time
[20:05] <alkisg> Ah, so no delay then
[20:05] <Lns> and i odn't have the issue..takes MAYBE 0.25sec to bring up a right-click context menu
[20:06] <Lns> and they say LTS doesn't mean more stable. ha! =p (just kidding just kidding)
[20:06] <alkisg> well, I'd prefer localapps to stability any time :P
[20:07] <Lns> alkisg: how much ram do your tcs have to run localapps (and which apps) ?
[20:07] <Lns> i'm wondering if localapps will even work for me, most of my TCs in the field are like, 128mb or so
[20:07] <alkisg> One lab has 64 Mb, the other 128 Mb... (yup, I was just kidding about the localapps... :D)
[20:07] <alkisg> Well, I have htop as a local app :D
[20:09] <Lns> lol
[20:09] <Lns> well that's a good localapp!
[20:10]  * alkisg would like to be able to run a video player as a local app... :(
[20:15] <Lns> that would be nice...and tsclient, as that would reduce roundtrips for display on a windows termserver too (from ubuntu desktop)
[20:18] <alkisg> why tsclient and not rdesktop?
[20:19] <Lns> alkisg: well either one
[20:19] <Lns> rdesktop is what tsclient uses
[20:19] <alkisg> I have the feeling that rdesktop would be lighter
[20:20] <Lns> it is i think
[20:21] <Lns> damn it, how do you get a thread view on SF lists...
[20:21] <Lns> ah got it
[20:23] <nothingman> hi, all
[20:24] <Lns> hey nothingman
[21:39] <LaserJock> any moodle users around?
[21:44] <Lns> yeah where's nubae been?
[21:45] <LaserJock> not sure
[21:56] <Lns> !seen nubae
[21:56] <Lns> !last nubae
[21:56] <Lns> bah
[21:57] <Lns> !help
[22:48] <sa7a> hi how can i make a usb boot stick in handy?
[22:59] <yotux> hello, what programs are offered to assit child in learning reading and spelling?


[00:08] <alex_mayorga> Hi, is this card know to (not) work on ubuntu http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_geforce_gt_230m_us.html ?
[00:26] <Sarvatt> it will be supported in lucid in a few days when the nvidia binary driver is updated, 190.42 was the first release that supported it apparently and either that or 190.53 is whats getting put in
[00:29] <alex_mayorga> Sarvatt: thanks, is there a way I can have Ubuntu in the meantime?
[00:34] <Sarvatt> what ubuntu release are you using?
[00:35] <Sarvatt> you can add this PPA to get the newer drivers, you want to install nvidia-190-kernel-source and it should pull in all of the rest that you need https://edge.launchpad.net/~nvidia-vdpau/+archive/ppa
[00:36] <Sarvatt> 195 works *really* good though, you might want to try those instead of 190
[00:41] <alex_mayorga> is there a 195 ppa?
[00:42] <Sarvatt> yeah 185 190 and 195 are all in that PPA
[00:43] <alex_mayorga> how do I boot on safe grapics
[00:43] <alex_mayorga> I'm trying a lucid daily build here
[03:58] <ripps> Okay, the guys on #ubuntu-1 aren't talking, does anybody here know how to possibly fix the problem I'm having with my wacom graphire3 in Lucid? Whenever I click, the mouse stops working when I hover over the tablet, I have to move the pen a good distance away from the tablet before it starts working again.
[04:00] <ripps> It seems that wacom-tools and xserver-xorg-input-wacom won't install because it confilcts with xserver-xorg-core
[04:21] <tjaalton> ripps: wait for the wacom driver to appear
[04:22] <ripps> tjaalton: is that being worked on?
[04:22] <tjaalton> ripps: kind of
[04:23] <tjaalton> ie. not by us, but the debian maintainer
[04:24] <ripps> tjaalton: because I have a bit of carpal tunnel, and using a normal mouse for long periods of time really starts to hurt. I've found that using a wacom tablet is alot easier on my wrist
[04:29] <tjaalton> ripps: I emailed him and asked how things are progressing
[04:41] <bjsnider> Sarvatt, there's a new mplayer in the ppa for you to test
[04:44] <bjsnider> and also an nvidia-settings with that patch
[09:07] <Duke`> I got a kernel panic yesterday o_O
[10:37] <Duke`> grrrrrr EXECBUF ERROR : I HATE YOU
[10:41] <Duke`> GRAAAAAAA!!!!
[10:41] <Duke`> and I lost my libdrm*20091125* packages ;_;
[18:08] <Duke`> rah
[18:10] <Sarvatt> Duke`: seems to be fixed, 30 hours now on this latest one
[18:11] <Duke`> lucky, I got it 3 or 4 times today :(
[18:12] <Sarvatt> reverted http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/drm/commit/?id=b73612e4fd69565aa2c5c2e9677f3e0af1945f7d and http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/drm/commit/?id=792fed1e2460f96459141b5a628dd5ab4fbb87db from this one thats stable
[18:25] <Duke`> could you do some .debs packages? I would test them :D
[18:28] <Sarvatt> sure i'll put it here https://edge.launchpad.net/~sarvatt/+archive/bugs
[18:29] <Duke`> ok
[18:29] <Duke`> I'm on x86_64
[18:29] <Sarvatt> yeah i'm 32 bit or i'd just send the deb
[18:30] <jcristau> Sarvatt: so 2.4.16 and 2.4.17 are busted for intel?
[18:31] <Sarvatt> yeah for Duke` and me and a few other people on 945 at least, people on 965 seem to be ok
[18:32] <jcristau> good to know..
[18:32] <jcristau> do you have upstream bug #s?
[18:32] <Sarvatt> http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25475 thats the nasty one we're getting
[18:32] <jcristau> okay
[18:32] <jcristau> thanks
[18:35]  * jcristau added self to cc
[18:46] <Sarvatt> Duke` i didnt bother packaging it right but its up, figure you just want something working and i've gotta run out the door :)
[19:27] <Duke`> ok installed, let's see if it works
[19:36] <Duke`> Sarvatt, how can you know those commits are the problem, have you bisected until the end yet?
[19:40] <Sarvatt> bisecting didnt work, most all of the commits are broken until the very last few
[19:41] <Duke`> ok
[19:41] <Sarvatt> so i started reverting things that looked related from 2.4.16 down
[19:41] <Sarvatt> just the later of the two didn't work, but both are working, next i'll try just the execbuff one if this ever crashes
[19:41] <Sarvatt> err if it doesnt crash for a few more days I mean :)
[19:42] <Duke`> :)
[19:46] <Duke`> apt is crying that a newer libdrm-radeon1 is needed for mesa... should I use the latest or keep your version? I'm not using radeon at all...
[19:53] <Sarvatt> yeah mesa really does require libdrm-radeon1 2.4.17 now
[19:54] <Sarvatt> i'm using stock lucid userspace and just updating libdrm to try to narrow it down, will see if those two commits revert cleanly from 2.4.17 later on
[19:57] <Sarvatt> if you want you can get the libdrm source from edgers, add these two patches to debian/patches/ and add the names to debian/patches/series and rebuild it
[19:57] <Sarvatt> http://sarvatt.com/downloads/patches/0001-Revert-intel-Check-and-propagate-errors-from-buildin.patch
[19:57] <Sarvatt> http://sarvatt.com/downloads/patches/0002-Revert-intel-Repeat-execbuffer-after-EINTR.patch
[21:15] <unggnu> hi all
[21:15] <unggnu> Any status update on Nouveau?
[21:36] <Sarvatt> it's not in yet at any rate, but ROAF has been working on packaging it up and it is working great here on xorg-edgers, the kernel people have to decide what to do about it because there are alot of different ways the support could be added and it seems like an external module build like how the current packages work could be simplified by moving it directly into the kernel tree
[21:37] <Sarvatt> i wouldn't expect it for another month or so at least honestly
[22:48] <dyek_> Hi! Can someone let me know the package name for XCB on Ubuntu/Debian? I can then install its source code.
[23:06] <JanC> dyek_: http://packages.ubuntu.com/xcb & http://packages.debian.org/xcb
[23:07] <jcristau> JanC: i don't think that's what he's looking for
[23:08] <JanC> jcristau: well, it shows the package names voor all xcb-related packages?  or is there another XCB that has anything to do with Xorg?  ;)
[23:29] <bjsnider> if he wants the source code he doesn't need ubuntu for that
[23:29] <bjsnider> unless he meant the deb source
[23:32] <dyek_> Didn't paid attention earlier...Hmm... this xcb package is X Cut Buffer utility. I am looking for the xlib-replacement API XCB package.
[23:35] <jcristau> which has the same name as upstream, so if you want to find it i'm sure you can.
[23:35] <dyek_> The XCB package will probably install xcb_atom.h, probably at X11/XCB/xcb_atom.h.
[23:43] <bjsnider> the headers would be in the -dev package
[23:49] <JanC> the URL I gave pointed to 2 packages, one of which provides pointers to libxcb  ;)
[23:52] <bjsnider> i assume he wants libxcb
[23:53] <JanC> probably
[23:54] <JanC> it's a bit unfortunate that the package search site only looks for packages that start with the search key
[23:56] <bjsnider> the bot can also be pinged though
[23:56] <bjsnider> !info libxcb
[23:58] <dyek_> Hmm...I did install libx11-xcb source code before, but I'm still not finding xcb_atom.h. In fact, XCB is part of libx11-6 itself!
[23:59] <bjsnider> !find xcb_atom.h


[07:22] <dholbach> good morning
[16:21] <Cantide> good evening, kind sirs
[16:21] <Xion> When is it starting?
[16:21] <jose> Xion: I'll check if we have the session today
[16:21] <Cantide> Xion, I think in 40 minutes
[16:21] <Xion> Okey, on twitter it said 15min some time ago.
[16:21] <Xion> i think
[16:21] <jose> yep, Daniel says that in 40m we're starting
[16:21] <Cantide> facebook said "at the top of the hour"
[16:21] <jose> blargh, looks like the calendar is messed up
[16:21] <Cantide> which appears to be correct :)
[16:22] <Xion> Then i'll be back in 30min.
[16:24] <TonyP> ?
[16:25] <Guest47846> hi
[16:27] <jose> hey Guest47846
[16:29] <Guest47846> i am new in ubuntu i want un stabile os same windows or beter
[16:29] <Nuc134rB0t> Guarst47846 Yep, we notice you are new by that comment, every new guy says so, but will you really stay with a gnu/linux distro? :p
[16:32] <Guest47846> ubuntu is fine but no work any programs same windows
[16:32] <Cantide> the first 6 months are the hardest :)
[16:32] <Cantide> i found myself dual booting then
[16:32] <Nuc134rB0t> Cantide: yes they are
[16:32] <Cantide> but after about 6 months i had found equivalent or better programs in Linux, and i never looked back
[16:33] <Cantide> that was 4 years ago '-';;
[16:33] <Nuc134rB0t> Guest47846: Once you understand you are not on Windows, everything will work fine. :)
[16:34] <Guest47846> it is fine contact whith anather ubuntu user in windows is many problem whith viruses internet & crash windows
[16:35] <jose> Guest47846: you can join #ubuntu for technical support
[16:35] <Guest47846> ok
[16:36] <Nuc134rB0t> Guest47846: Where are you from?
[16:39] <Guest47846> here
[16:39] <Guest47846> Bucarest Romania
[16:40] <Nuc134rB0t> Guest47846: then you can join the Romanian channel #Ubuntu-ro
[16:40] <Guest47846> xubuntu 13 is beter ubuntu 12?
[16:40] <Hakensline> Hello World
[16:44] <Nuc134rB0t> Guest47846: xubuntu is a light desktop edition of ubuntu, so, on slow machines, xubuntu is expected to work better than any ubuntu version
[16:44] <Nuc134rB0t> Hakensline: We are just a bit of the world :(
[16:47] <Guest47846> i am pentim 4 ,3GHZ single core 2gb ram
[16:47] <Guest47846> pentium
[16:49] <Hakensline> :-)
[16:49] <Nuc134rB0t> Guest47846: I would not recommend any recent Ubuntu version, You should better try with xubuntu and see how it works.
[16:49] <monolith> @Guest47846: xubuntu would work perfect on your system. I installed xubuntu 12.04 on a Athlon XP 1.8 GHz, 1GB RAM
[16:49] <monolith> ...and it works quite nice.
[16:51] <Guest47846> is posible to instal xubuntu in Expansion drive
[16:51] <monolith> don't know what's expansion drive...
[16:52] <Guest47846> i have expansion drive 2 tb
[16:53] <monolith> but it's posible to install *Ubuntu in many places :D internal HDD, external HDD, usb stick, sdcard
[16:53] <Nuc134rB0t> monolith: I think he mean an external hard disk
[16:53] <monolith> ...and so on :)
[16:53] <monolith> yup, ok :)
[16:53] <Nuc134rB0t> means*
[16:53] <Nuc134rB0t> Guest47846: You can do that, yes.
[16:53] <Guest47846> ok
[16:53] <monolith> if expansion drive is external hdd, yes of course.
[16:54] <Guest47846> yes
[16:54] <Guest47846> i try thanks
[16:54] <monolith> lately, I installed a thing named Picuntu on a 4GB microSD card :)
[16:55] <monolith> (Picuntu is Ubuntu 12.04(?) for miniPCs, which are based on ARM processor RK3066)
[16:59] <monolith> I heard about Ubuntu for Smartphones, heard this some months ago. Is there anything released by now?
[16:59] <ooleng> Hello
[16:59] <monolith> (Ubuntu for smartphones is an OS for smartphone devices, as far as I understood)
[17:00] <Taek> It's still being developed.
[17:00] <Taek> There have been some ports from original dev/beta release to other devices
[17:00] <dholbach> hello hello hello
[17:00] <serafino> Howdy
[17:00] <Taek> but my understandin is only the LG Nexus 4 is officially supported.
[17:00] <Xion> Hello again
[17:00] <dholbach> is the stream live?
[17:01] <adonizer> HELLO!
[17:01] <monolith> @Taek: you know some link for those beta releases?
[17:01] <netcurli> I can see the stream now, yes
[17:01]  * ayast slaps ChanServ around a bit with a large trout
[17:01] <dholbach> if you want to ask questions, pleas prefix them with QUESTION: (in capital letters), so they're easy to spot
[17:01] <serafino> Talking about Ubuntu touch? I have the link here
[17:01] <micah2> I see you, Jono!
[17:01] <monolith> paste it to the world! :D
[17:01] <Taek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices
[17:01] <Taek> Stream is working.
[17:02] <Richie442> Hi there
[17:02] <Hakensline> Hello GEEK
[17:02] <Taek> Ubuntu at the work place is the best!.
[17:02] <serafino> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices
[17:03] <meatloaf133> i shave monkeys
[17:03] <Taek> No
[17:03] <Taek> We can hear all!
[17:04] <meatloaf133> i shave monkeys
[17:05] <ooleng> ubuntu is easy to use for all users
[17:05] <serafino> It happens
[17:05] <Taek> Ubuntu Touch updates?.
[17:06] <meatloaf133> Questrons mokeys fart
[17:06] <serafino> QUESTION: anyone know why 90% of the apps are just dead links? Wouldn't it make more sense to test it together then like this
[17:06] <christophe195> QUESTION login whit FTP on the loginscreen (all the files coms from a server)
[17:06] <ooleng> smart phone?
[17:06] <Padroni> how long has this been on?
[17:06] <Padroni> anyone?
[17:06] <number22> couple minutes
[17:07] <Padroni> ty
[17:07] <Max_Tither> 6:00
[17:08] <monolith> REMARK: I'm waiting for the day my fridge & toaster will run Ubuntu :D
[17:09] <Nuc134rB0t> Metallica \m/
[17:09] <number22> monolith: sudo apt-get toast
[17:09] <SamMunro> :) Metallica As A Service perhaps
[17:10] <monolith> :D
[17:10] <monolith> yep, I would need LTS on the fridge :)
[17:12] <b3rn475> Is there any video preview of unity next on desktop computers?
[17:14] <monolith> @b3rn475 -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4gXaf08GTI
[17:14] <monolith> I:
[17:14] <kgunn> if you want to help on mir -> https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bugs?search=Search&field.importance=Critical&field.status=New&field.status=Incomplete&field.status=Confirmed&field.status=Triaged&field.status=In+Progress&field.status=Fix+Committed
[17:15] <b3rn475> QUESTION: Is there any video preview of unity 8 on desktop computers?
[17:15] <kgunn> https://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/developers/design-documents/ozone
[17:15] <Nuc134rB0t> Theme woohoo! My gf will like that xD
[17:16] <kgunn> Updates on how to build XMir, mesa -> http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/building_source_for_pc.html
[17:17] <Cantide> b3rn475, i'm also very interested in that question, but now my connection is too bad to follow the live video feed -.- so i missed the answer
[17:18] <Max_Tither> QUESTION: What ever happened to the initial Youtube core app. I never heard that they officially killed it.
[17:20] <Max_Tither> b3rn475: The is no Unity 8 desktop shell specificly yet, but if you want to play the with the phone shell, see this page http://unity.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/development/unity8/
[17:22] <b3rn475> I've tried it on nexus 10. Interesting but a little bit unstable right now. In particular how do I turn off the device?
[17:23] <darkone778> b3m475 throwing against a wall will shut it off just not sure how much it will help you turn it back on in the future
[17:23] <Taek> Hold device power button until you get the swipe or icon to power it off.
[17:23] <Max_Tither> b3rn475: the is no actual way to turn it off from the shell, but you could run the terminal and do sudo shutdown -h now
[17:25] <b3rn475> teak. I've tried it but nothing. May be was an old bugged version
[17:25] <b3rn475> Sorry take
[17:26] <Max_Tither> That I am aware of, there was never a slide to shutdown. Sounds more like ios
[17:26] <b3rn475> O dear damn auto correction. Sorry again Taek
[17:28] <Xion> Interessting.
[17:29] <kgunn> b3rn475: for a desktop preview you may also use the ppa https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-unity/+archive/next/
[17:30] <kgunn> which you can safely install alongside unity7...then you can just execute unity8....
[17:30] <kgunn> it'll come up as a "phone window"...you can simply go full screen
[17:30] <kgunn> which puts it into a tablet/desktop mode
[17:31] <kgunn> b3rn475: ....if you prefer...you can download src, build & run a script to launch
[17:31] <kgunn> http://unity.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/development/unity8/
[17:31] <b3rn475> Cool I was thinking about upgrade to 13.04 I'll try it soon after that
[17:32] <Taek> I was thinking to download the latest Ubuntu and i've it a try in Live mode.
[17:32] <Taek> I am still rather partial to Gnome 2 desktop for what I use it for
[17:33] <Taek> So i have Ubuntu 10.04.4 in usage.
[17:33] <Spee_Der_> Thank you very very much for the live feed...  Ubuntu is just awesome ! With or without Unity.....
[17:34] <Spee_Der_> I'm using v13.10 and having a great time of it, but I am using gnome-session-fallback.
[17:34] <Taek> Fail-back is gnome 3 Correct?.
[17:35] <Max_Tither> QUESTION: Since Deutshe telekom is the parent company of T-Mobile, should Deutshe Telekom launch with a phone running Ubuntu, will T-mobile be able to as well?
[17:36] <Spee_Der_> Yes, this package contains the required components for the standard GNOME 3
[17:37] <Taek> QUESTION: how do you see the desktop apps being used on the Ubuntu Mobile OS?
[17:37] <Xion> QUESTION: When will Ubuntu Touch V1.0 be ready for release?
[17:38] <Max_Tither> QUESTION: Will non-ritual core apps get official designs, similar to the beautiful Suru theme.
[17:38] <Spee_Der_> I could not log in from the video feed page, so I'm using xchat to log in.
[17:38] <Taek> Irssi :D
[17:38] <Max_Tither> So they all look consistent.
[17:40] <mason_m> QUESTION: Hey guys; thanks for the updates.  My girlfriend and I are writing a desktop app using Qt C++ and QtCreator.  What are the advantages and drawbacks of using the Ubuntu SDK instead of vanilla QtCreator?
[17:41] <Taek> Unity 8 Preview (2 Months ago) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices
[17:41] <Taek> wrong link
[17:41] <b3rn475> Perfect that was question I mean thank you.
[17:41] <Taek> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9AzRxsnfTE
[17:43] <christophe195> QUESTION: can we login on the login screen using FTP and all the files and settings and background are from the internet or a other server ( good for school)
[17:44] <SamMunro> what phone/PC shops need is an in-house linux genius to help do stuff for Joe Public :)
[17:46] <darkone778> QUESTION: will the double mouse cursors that currently appear in Xmir to tell a user they are using X be shipped like that in 13.10? Or will that be taken out so that there is a seemless transition between an app running on X or Xmir?
[17:46] <jcastro> I am pretty sure we won't ship 2 mouse cursors in a release. :)
[17:46] <darkone778> Would hope not
[17:48] <darkone778> I am assuming that is currently implemented for testing
[17:48] <darkone778> of xmir
[17:49] <SamMunro> I'm too noob for Juju questions, but hows the ssh provider thing coming?
[17:50] <simion314_> QUESTION: will the patches to X be merged upstream ? (sorry if it was asked before just got back )
[17:50] <Spee_Der_> QUESTION: Is Ubuntu aiming more toward Enterprise and away from the general end user ?
[17:50] <SamMunro> ;)
[17:50] <Max_Tither> QUESTION: Why was juju ported to MacOSx. I though this was a Ubuntu technology.
[17:51] <jcastro> Max_Tither: Mac users deploy to ubuntu servers, it's a common use case
[17:51] <pmcgowan> Spee_Der_, the client products are very much consumer oriented
[17:51] <Max_Tither> ah, but it still runs on Ubuntu. Thanks jcastro
[17:51] <Taek> Apple likes to charge extreme amounts of money while employing free to use software!
[17:51] <Max_Tither> awesome work guys
[17:51] <jcastro> Max_Tither: yeah so if a guy has a mac but wants to manage 2,000 ubuntu servers then he's still a user to me
[17:52] <pmcgowan> Spee_Der_, we also have some enterprise related work such as Thin CLient support
[17:52] <jcastro> though there's no accounting for taste. :p
[17:52] <Max_Tither> Thats great.
[17:52] <Max_Tither> I didn't mean to come off as anti mac
[17:52] <Max_Tither> Thank you everyone. Great work with Ubuntu.
[17:52] <Spee_Der_> Thanks for the live video. Had I known sooner I would have invited more folks to tune in.. Thank you very much for your hard word all....
[17:52] <Taek> I've actually been looking into using thin clients with some backroom ubuntu cloud server machines at work
[17:54] <Spee_Der_> Have a great day folks....
[18:00] <danielmyk> i want to start a company more beter microsoft & google
[18:07] <armaanfarshori> good evening evryone

[18:58] <kaqi> https://twitter.com/UbuntuOnAir
[20:17] <osama> hi


[01:30] -queuebot:#ubuntu-qt- New binary: qt5reactor [amd64] (focal-proposed/universe) [0.5-2] (no packageset)
[03:18] -queuebot:#ubuntu-qt- New: accepted qt5reactor [amd64] (focal-proposed) [0.5-2]
 Qtwebengine requires a manual upload?
 I'll do it now.
 Thanks. I poked a few depwaits
 In file included from /<<PKGBUILDDIR>>/obj-s390x-linux-gnu/Telegram_pch/stdafx.h:121: … /<<PKGBUILDDIR>>/obj-s390x-linux-gnu/Release/../../Telegram/SourceFiles/config.h:180:2: error: #error "Only little endian is supported!" …   180 | #error "Only little endian is supported!" …       |  ^~~~~
 It is going to be RMed in Debian
 Right. Ok. git blame says that line is 3 years old, but guess some other reason for it to fail now then
 Fwd from mitya57: After more investigation: the check is old, our maintainer used to patch it to change #error to #warning but he no longer does that now.
 Fwd from mitya57: https://salsa.debian.org/debian/telegram-desktop/commit/86d77755e0d40220e3d592b312d28315e134664f - here that hunk of the patch was removed
 According to the maintainer it never really worked on big endian.
 ok 👍


[01:23] <cjwatson> I see walbon's left, but just in case they're reading logs, "apt-listchanges --all foo.deb" is probably the single straightforward command they were looking for
[02:08] <tsimonq2> What does the SRU Team think about bug 1770678?
[02:09] <tsimonq2> It's the Debian maintainer asking for a no-change rebuild of their package in Artful.
[04:57] <ipatrol> Guess https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/imagemagick/+bug/1117481 can be closed up with perhaps a little QA
[12:51] <ginggs> tseliot: hi, will you SRU the /dev/nvidia-uvm-tools fix for bionic as well please?
[12:55] <tseliot> ginggs: yes, I uploaded in cosmic today, and I hope to SRU that soon
[13:22] <ginggs> tseliot: thanks
[13:52] <ahasenack> jbicha: hi, good morning/afternoon, #1737053 came to my attention as I'm preparing a new apache upload for cosmic
[13:52] <ahasenack> jbicha: looks like brotli is still in universe
[13:53] <ahasenack> should I just upload the new apache which can depend on it, and then libbrotli1 will be pulled into main? Or should some action be taken before by an AA about it?
[13:54] <ahasenack> I don't see it in excuses, even though cosmic-proposed has one upload from may 4th
[13:54] <ahasenack> ah, that upload is the one that failed the armhf build
[13:54] <jbicha> go ahead and upload, it will be noticed for promotion to main once something in main pulls it in
[13:57] <ahasenack> rbasak: hi, could you please import brotli? It's in universe now, but will be promoted to main
[13:59] <rbasak> ack
[14:00] <ahasenack> rbasak: th
[14:00] <ahasenack> thx
[14:02] <rbasak> Importing
[15:13] <rbasak> ahasenack: the import was successful
[15:14] <ahasenack> rbasak: thanks
[15:30] <teward> anyone know how to fix mk-sbuild in Xenial to get a Cosmic schroot?  It's failing to create the schroot with 'Package pkg-create-dbgsym has no installation candidate" in mk-sbuild.  (I'm not yet able to upgrade to Bionic at this time)
[15:32] <mdeslaur> teward: ignore the warning
[15:32] <mdeslaur> teward: I got that on bionic creating bionic schroots too but it seems to work fine
[15:33] <teward> mdeslaur: well I ask because it hard-failed
[15:33] <mdeslaur> oh, hrm
[15:33] <teward> mdeslaur: 'twas not a warning, was a hard-fail "error"
[15:34] <teward> i've got a Bionic system at home, I can test there to see if this is a Xenial-specific mk-sbuild issue, and if it is then I'll probably open bugs, but until then I can't test it (because "work")
[15:34] <mdeslaur> I got a hard fail too, IIRC, and the schroot still works
[15:34] <mdeslaur> have you tried the resulting chroot?
[15:35] <teward> waiting for the other schroots to finish updating (I have a "fire and forget" script that fires off all the updates for supported release chroots)
[15:35] <teward> i've only got so much computing power on this here system :p
[15:37] <doko> ginggs: mrbayes and esys-particle autopkg tests are still running, but any other openmpi autopkg test failures are real
[15:39] <teward> mdeslaur: huh, working now.  I worry that something that's supposed to be in the chroot isn't because installation exploded at one step.
[15:43] <ginggs> doko: ok, will have a look - not sure what can be done about all the armhf FTBFS
[15:44] <femme> Have differential privacy/data anonymization been evaluated for the ubuntu telemetry? for example this could be used http://arx.deidentifier.org/
[18:23] <Odd_Bloke> debootstrap in bionic doesn't know about cosmic yet; how can I work around that?
[18:23] <Odd_Bloke> (To mk-sbuild, for clarity.)
[18:24] <cjwatson> sudo ln -s gutsy /usr/share/debootstrap/scripts/cosmic
[18:26] <Odd_Bloke> Hmm, that should have been more obvious to me.
[18:26] <Odd_Bloke> Thanks!
[18:33] <wxl> i had the same question, actually. are you suggesting, cjwatson, to just build as "gutsy" after the symlink?
[18:33] <teward> wxl: i did that
[18:33] <teward> and have for bionic, etc.
[18:34] <teward> it's basically what i've had to do while not on the latest release(s)
[18:34] <wxl> huh, ok
[18:34]  * wxl buys more band-aids :/
[18:53] <Odd_Bloke> wxl: The debootstrap hasn't changed since gutsy, so it's just reused via symlink.
[19:07] <wxl> Odd_Bloke: well i guess it DOES make sense then :)
[20:25] <rbasak> doko: does bug 1770748 have to go directly to the TB? Why not the ubuntu-devel@ ML first?
[20:26] <rbasak> I'm talking about should-we-maintain-C++-symbols-files in this case question.
[20:27] <rbasak> (because I have an opinion on that technical point, and I'd like to hear the opinions of others)
[20:56] <doko> rbasak: sure, we can have the technical discussion there, not sure about the procedures
[23:53] <jbicha> I personally think that this escalated way too quickly
[23:54] <wxl> jbicha: re: i386?
[23:55] <jbicha> no, me being referred to the TB about the ilmbase issue
[23:55] <wxl> ah. can't really comment there.
[23:56] <jbicha> I assume the referral wasn't meant to be personal but that doesn't help relieve the stress much
[23:57] <wxl> yeah it doesn't read as personal to me
[23:59] <teward> mdeslaur: just an FYI, I didn't run into that issue with pkg-create-dbgsym during chroot development when building the Cosmic chroot in a Bionic environment.  Guess something with Xenial's sbuild/schroot doesn't like Cosmic?


[12:03] <andreasn> p
[12:46] <thorwil> hi. what a great day. just lost my job. well, in 4 weeks, to be exact
[12:48] <andreasn> thorwil, ouch, sorry to hear that
[12:48] <andreasn> where do you work?
[12:48] <thorwil> andreasn, a call center not worth mentioning
[12:49] <andreasn> do you do any graphics design freelancing?
[12:49] <thorwil> andreasn, no, last time it looked like i might, the client went away
[12:50] <andreasn> I get requests for various things from time to time from various people. I don't have the time or interest to do them myself
[12:51] <kwwii> thorwil: ouch, sorry to hear that
[12:51] <andreasn> and the gnome designers I used to forward them too are now fulltime employees or super-busy with their current freelance missions
[12:52] <andreasn> so if you're interested, perhaps I can recommend you next time something comes up
[12:53] <thorwil> andreasn, sure i am interested. always depends on the details, of course. thanks for the offer :)
[12:53] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/theme2_carbon.png ...any ideas for improvement?
[12:55] <thorwil> kwwii, i'd flip the scrollbar, because as is it looks like the slider belongs to the right edge, not the actual scrollable area
[12:56] <kwwii> thorwil: hrm good idea...it was supposed to look like it comes out of the left part and extends above and into the window...that clearly didn't get through :p
[13:01] <andreasn> one thing I liked about the XP and OSX scollbars are that they seemed to be made out of the same material as the area that they are scrolling
[13:01] <andreasn> http://s3.amazonaws.com/satisfaction-production/s3_images/17670/flock-drafts_inline.jpg
[13:01] <andreasn> http://img.skitch.com/20090323-qewg1fxje8tqmj9qj4d61mjj2b.jpg
[13:02] <andreasn> I'm not saying you should do this, but it might be worth considering
[13:02] <andreasn> in general, most GTK+ apps seems to threat the scrolling area as a completely different control than the window with padding and lines between it
[13:03] <thorwil> yeah, a mistake, i think
[13:03] <SiDi> I personnally find the osx ones ugly
[13:04] <andreasn> so the effect might be hard to achieve without a bunch of glade editing and possibly some changes to GTK+ itself
[13:19] <kwwii> well, if we would switch to blue everything would be much easier
[13:24] <andreasn> SiDi, ugly or beautiful, they get some of the physicalish design stuff right
[13:34] <andreasn> thorwil, I recall mpt was unhappy about that behavior as well, so maybe we should grab a GTK+ developer and look into how we can fix that (and how much work it would be etc.)
[13:36] <thorwil> andreasn, sure. i would add the bigger issue of hard-coded spacing between widgets. that just belongs to theming, especially with increasingly diverse devices
[13:37] <andreasn> I'm not sure how that is related. Shouldn't the space always be zero? Anyway, I think people are looking into the other issue already
[13:38] <andreasn> David Zeuten and David Madely (?)
[13:39] <thorwil> andreasn, well, having a gap or not having a gap next to scrollbars is related to spacing
[13:39] <andreasn> you mean if some themes want to do it wrong? :)
[13:40] <andreasn> hm, yeah, sure
[13:40] <thorwil> heh, sure. the more wrong and terrible ugly themes can be, the better, as it likely also means there's space for good stuf :)
[14:16] <kwwii> so, once again...http://sinecera.de/theme2_carbon2.png
[14:29] <zniavre> the rebirth of ubuntulooks ?
[14:48] <kwwii> zniavre: nope, just some stuff i was playing with
[14:49] <kwwii> thorwil: can you take a look at the wallpaper brief? I think it is ready but maybe you can find something to improve: http://sinecera.de/karmic_wallpaper_notfinal.pdf
[14:50] <SiDi> Canonical should recruit thorwil imo :]
[16:18] <thorwil> was busy, garden work
[16:21] <thorwil> kwwii, reads very familiar ;)
[16:22] <thorwil> kwwii, Implementation page could be a good place to point to the SVG and XCF templates
[16:23] <thorwil> kwwii, i'd drop the Color Palette page. it's so ingrained by now, many will conform, anyway. but you should embiggen the chance of pleasant surprises
[16:25] <thorwil> kwwii, but if you keep it, consider placing the palette image to fit with the "Use warm colors ..." paragraph from the previous page
[16:43] <thorwil> kwwii, don't you think the slogans should be in the brief?
[17:54]  * thorwil -> dinner
[18:35] <thorwil> back


[01:28] <RAOF> Note to self: don't run xorg integration tests while performing tasks you care about.
[01:40] <duflu> That's odd. My main machine can't run GL clients any more. And I upgraded _nothing_ since yesterday
[01:44] <duflu> Back in a minute
[01:44] <duflu> I hope
[01:51] <duflu> Woo, it's not PPA problems this time. We landed something in multi-monitor which makes half the example clients crash
[01:56] <duflu> ping kduv
[01:56] <duflu> ping kdub
[01:59] <RAOF> Hurray!
[02:01] <duflu> Yeah, right, hurray
[03:15]  * RAOF is off for lunch
[07:03] <duflu> alf__: out->used implies out->connected right?
[07:03] <duflu> Actually, it doesn't have to... but used is still more important I guess
[07:04] <alf__> duflu: As things are now (and I don't really expect this to change) out->used implies all of out->connected, has valid mode etc
[07:05] <duflu> alf__: What about when an output is in use, but suddenly disconnected? Does the server reconfigure or would that make used && !connected ?
[07:06] <duflu> I'm guessing an output could be "used" but possibly not "connected". That's an error to log, but theoretically possible
[07:08] <alf__> duflu: the new configuration that reaches the client should have an updated used field (i.e. not used) if an output is not connected
[07:08] <duflu> alf__: Sounds reasonable. But I will check all conditions for now...
[07:08] <alf__> duflu: but I guess it doesn't hurt to sanity check all the relevant fields
[07:08] <alf__> duflu: ok
[07:18] <dholbach> good morning
[07:37] <didrocks> RAOF: good evening!
[07:37] <RAOF> didrocks: Aloha!
[07:37] <didrocks> how's life in the winterish side of the world? :)
[07:38] <RAOF> Dark, now :)
[07:38] <didrocks> but but… you're not in the IoM!
[07:38] <didrocks> did you see my emails about xmir and so on?
[07:38] <didrocks> email*
[07:38] <didrocks> even
[07:39] <RAOF> didrocks: I did indeed. The XMir stack is preparing for an upload.
[07:40] <didrocks> excellent! so still on track for today?
[07:40] <RAOF> It might even include an autopkgtest for X, depending on how ambitious I am.
[07:40] <didrocks> \o/
[07:40] <didrocks> maybe let's try to have a first upload, and then adding it :p
[07:40] <didrocks> not adding a potential last minute "zomg"
[07:40] <RAOF> I should be able to finish it this evening.
[07:41] <didrocks> excellent, do you mind poking/sending me a quick shotout?
[07:41] <didrocks> so that I promote stuff in main in proposed
[07:42] <RAOF> didrocks: Sure.
[07:42] <duflu> Ugg. bzr tells me there's nothing to merge, but also my diff is 10kloc. It's not.
[07:43] <didrocks> RAOF: excellent! thanks a lot. Let's cross fingers
[07:43] <didrocks> nothing to merge, 10kloc? hum…
[07:43] <didrocks> are you in a case with \r\n eventually?
[07:43] <didrocks> I've already been trapped by that
[07:47] <duflu> didrocks: bzr was confused by me merging branches, reverting, and then trying to merge again. The diff remained but there was "nothing to merge"
[07:47] <duflu> Fixed now
[07:47] <didrocks> ah, but the revert was
[07:47] <didrocks> bzr merge . -r -1..-2, right?
[07:47] <didrocks> so you have a commit
[07:47] <didrocks> then, merging a revert
[07:48] <didrocks> and committing, right?
[07:48] <duflu> didrocks: Yes I think I did that. Because I'd already backed it up offsite. So didn't want to uncommit
[07:48] <didrocks> ok, so that makes sense, not bzr being confused :)
[07:48] <didrocks> basically the revert is "new code" more advanced than your merge itself
[07:49] <didrocks> (there is no marker that this commit is a revert of this one, and should be considered again then)
[07:49] <duflu> didrocks: Yes it looks like bzr is trying to mark branches as merged, even when they differ
[07:51] <didrocks> right, because the commit id is already in
[07:51] <didrocks> basically, you have to bzr branch trunk, then, creating a manual diff (from your commit change) and reapplying it :(
[07:51] <kgunn> duflu: hey...tvoss keen to push for your switch branch because it fixes some issues....but
[07:51] <kgunn> i remembered kdub had found a perf hit on android
[07:51] <duflu> kgunn: Fixed AFAIK
[07:52] <kgunn> just curious if you had a chance to investigate
[07:52] <kgunn> oh swet
[07:52] <duflu> He was testing it too early
[07:52] <kgunn> ...or sweet even
[07:52] <duflu> kgunn: Nexus4 gives 60FPS on everything
[07:52] <kgunn> kdub: ^ wanna give another go ?
[07:52] <kgunn> duflu: is it switching or bypass branch ?
[07:52] <duflu> kgunn: switch
[07:53] <kgunn> duflu: awesome
[07:53] <duflu> kgunn: I will still ask kdub to re-test though
[07:55] <kgunn> duflu: think you'll be able to mp next week ?
[07:55] <duflu> kgunn: I was aiming for today. Fingers crossed
[07:55] <duflu> kgunn: That's "switch", not "bypass"
[07:56] <kgunn> duflu: right...still lot's of effort...great
[08:02] <duflu> kgunn: Incidentally, I suspect the fix I did for the Android frame rate might resolve some of greyback's concerns about Mir's swapbuffers being slow for Qt
[08:02] <duflu> Maybe
[08:16] <duflu> Does anyone have operator permission to ban morphis?
[08:17] <seb128> !ops
[08:18] <duflu> Not big deal. Wait and see if the noise stops I guess
[08:20] <seb128> duflu, I'm asking on #ubuntu-devel, that's actually happening on -devel and -touch as well and is quite annoying
[08:29] <duflu> kgunn: Regarding 30FPS on Android... I just discovered that can happen if you accidentally have multiple Mir servers running. It actually works, at half framerate
[08:29] <kgunn> :)
[08:29] <kgunn> makes sense
[08:29] <kgunn> duflu:
[08:39] <duflu> alf__: Would this be multimonitor? https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1207226
[09:01] <alf__> duflu: I can't reproduce this. Is this with lp:mir? What's your monitor setup exactly, and what commands are you running running?
[09:02] <duflu> alf__: Yes plain old lp:mir. One monitor connected (but three supported). Just run any client and it happens
[09:02] <alf__> duflu: which server?
[09:02] <duflu> alf__: demo_server_shell at least. Let me test demo_server
[09:03] <duflu> alf__: If you can't reproduce it, I will debug tomorrow
[09:03] <alf__> duflu: could it be that you have left-over processes?
[09:03] <duflu> alf__: No, I've rebuilt and retested several times
[09:04] <duflu> Actually it's probably just the compositor losing vsync on VT switch
[09:15] <alan_g> duflu: alf__ - anyone need to review https://code.launchpad.net/~robertcarr/mir/client-focus-notifications/+merge/166440 again - or shall I top-approve to get it off the review queue?
[09:16] <duflu> alan_g: Yes I need to
[09:16] <duflu> Or at least verify my previous concerns were addressed
[09:19] <alan_g> np
[09:21] <duflu> alf__: Apologies. I thought I had tested with trunk, twice. Now only happens in my own branch :)
[09:24] <alf__> duflu: no worries
[09:24] <duflu> Too many machines/branches going at once
[09:25] <duflu> I did have the forethought to test trunk. And yet I messed that up somehow
[09:25] <alan_g> duflu: time for rest
[09:26] <alan_g> RAOF: got time to fix https://code.launchpad.net/~mir-team/mir/expose-debug-buffer-id-to-client/+merge/176843 so that we can land it?
[09:44] <duflu> alan_g: I won't get to that review today. But I would like to tomorrow....
[09:45] <alan_g> duflu: that's OK, I'm just keen to reduce the review backlog (but only where possible)
[09:48] <RAOF> alan_g: Not today; barring firefighting, tomorrow.
[09:54] <alf__> RAOF: alan_g: could we change it to WIP then?
[09:55] <RAOF> alf__: Done.
[09:55] <alf__> RAOF: great thanks
[09:55] <alf__> RAOF: let's see how light we can make our MP list :)
[09:58] <didrocks> RAOF: can I help you in any way?
[09:59] <RAOF> didrocks: Not really; I'm just preparing the packages, testing them, and then I'll upload them. In a bunch.
[10:00] <duflu> It's a bad sign that I read "barring firefighting, tomorrow" as "barfighting tomorrow"
[10:00] <alf__> duflu: :D
[10:02] <didrocks> RAOF: good luck! :)
[10:37] <RAOF> didrocks: Hm. This might not all be ready and sufficiently tested for me to upload tonight. Is it urgent that I push through, or is your late today/early morning your time ok?
[10:37] <didrocks> RAOF: I prefer we push safe things, just be aware that as I have then to promote build-deps in main, it will take time
[10:38] <didrocks> RAOF: I wanted to ensure that today's Mir + u-s-c worked TBH (and be done with this)
[10:38] <didrocks> but again, better to be on the safe side of things :)
[10:39] <kgunn> robert_ancell: i was gonna test lankhorst's mp....unless, you tell me you're already doing it
[10:39] <RAOF> didrocks: I probably _could_ get it done today, but it'd be late.
[10:40] <didrocks> RAOF: that would be better, but I don't want you having to overwork for it :)
[10:40] <didrocks> RAOF: just keep me posted, we'll see
[10:46] <alan_g> hikiko: BTW your work got a mention: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTQyNTI
[10:49] <hikiko> haha :)
[10:50] <hikiko> that's only an option
[10:51] <hikiko> anyway, I wope we have the full mir on mir soon
[10:51] <hikiko> :s/wope/hope
[10:56] <robert_ancell> kgunn, testing it now
[11:09] <hikiko> alan_g, I have a question
[11:10] <hikiko> I added a check that the host socket and the socket that is used by the nested mir to accept connections is not the same
[11:10] <RAOF> Grah. Stupid alioth!
[11:10] <hikiko> and if it
[11:10] <hikiko> s the same I just throw an exception
[11:11] <hikiko> but I wonder if it's better to rename the socket myself px add a 0 at the end
[11:11] <hikiko> eg /tmp/mir_socket for host /tmp/mir_socket0 for nest
[11:11] <alan_g> hikiko: no. it is better to report the problem than hide it
[11:12] <hikiko> cool :)
[11:12] <alan_g> hikiko: Use AbnormalExit to give a nice explanation
[11:13] <hikiko> ok!
[11:19] <RAOF> didrocks: Grr. Alioth seems to be down again; I won't have the full stack ready tonight.
[11:40] <didrocks> RAOF: don't worry then, thanks for trying :)
[11:47] <xnox> hikiko|lunch: so can I run and test it yet? =)
[11:52] <hikiko|lunch> xnox, not yet I am afraid :) sorry eating! brb in a while
[12:31] <thomi> robert_ancell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1207312
[13:29] <robert_ancell> alf__, regarding https://code.launchpad.net/~robert-ancell/mir/alt-ctrl-backspace/+merge/178036 - do you want to merge your common code in now and I'll rebase on it, or do the rebase yourself when merging it in?
[13:31] <alf__> robert_ancell: Let's get the common code in first, and I will give rebasing a try. I will let you know if there are any issues. BTW, we also need VT switching code.
[13:31] <alan_g> hikiko: I've made a second review comment - after more thought than the first.
[13:32] <robert_ancell> alf__, I have the VT switching code done
[13:32] <robert_ancell> in lp:~robert-ancell/mir/setsid-alt-ctrl-Fn
[13:33] <robert_ancell> tvoss_, what was the problem we had in the system compositor that we turned the input off for? We need to re-enable the input for mlankhorst patch to go through
[13:34] <alf__> robert_ancell: ok, if the common code (multimonitor-examples) lands early enough today I will take your branches, rebase them and MP them. Otherwise whoever gets to it first can do it.
[13:34] <tvoss_> robert_ancell, it makes the ati tests fail when trying to allocate a bo for the hw cursor
[13:34] <robert_ancell> tvoss_, right, so we just need to disable the cursor then
[13:34] <tvoss_> robert_ancell, right
[13:35] <hikiko> alan_g, I saw it thanks, just a question: it's not possible at all that we release the connection before deleting the platform? I mean
[13:35] <hikiko> we are sure that nested mir will never be disconnected before the exit?
[13:36] <alan_g> hikiko: we don't need it (yet)
[13:37] <alan_g> so don't make anything more complicated to allow it.
[13:37] <robert_ancell> racarr, are you awake?
[13:38] <alan_g> hikiko: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_aren't_gonna_need_it
[13:39] <hikiko> ok alan_g one more question:
[13:39] <hikiko> if I make mir connection const
[13:40] <hikiko> i wont be able to call is valid and get error and release
[13:40] <hikiko> whithout cast
[13:41] <hikiko> :s/without cast//
[13:41] <hikiko> :p
[13:41] <alan_g> hikiko: why do you think that?
[13:43] <hikiko> because they get char* not const char*
[13:43] <hikiko> eeh
[13:44] <hikiko> const MirConnection* :p
[13:44] <hikiko> and MirConnection*
[13:44] <alan_g> MirConnection* const connection;
[13:45] <alan_g> Make connection const, not what it points to
[13:46] <hikiko> this doesn't make it read-only?
[13:46] <hikiko> :s
[13:46] <hikiko> shall i make it mutable?
[13:50] <alan_g> What for?
[13:50] <hikiko>  I call mir_connect_sync in the constructor
[13:50] <hikiko> connection = mir_connect_sync
[13:51] <alan_g> But you shouldn't - call it in the initializer list
[13:51] <hikiko> then makes sense :D
[13:51] <hikiko> ok
[14:03] <robert_ancell> Can I get a second opinion on https://code.launchpad.net/~robertcarr/unity-system-compositor/disable-cursor/+merge/174006?
[14:07] <alan_g> robert_ancell: done
[14:07] <robert_ancell> alan_g, ta
[14:08] <robert_ancell> alan_g, feel like https://code.launchpad.net/~robert-ancell/unity-system-compositor/vt-switch/+merge/178072 too?
[14:09] <alan_g> what look at usc twice in one day?
[14:09] <robert_ancell> indeed
[14:09] <robert_ancell> a wild Thursday for all involved
[14:13] <alan_g> robert_ancell: is there a way to test it without forcing my system to reboot into usc world? (I never do that.)
[14:17] <robert_ancell> alan_g, not easily
[14:17] <robert_ancell> rather, no, you would have to go into u-s-c world
[14:17] <alan_g> I'll have to pass then
[14:52] <kgunn_> alf__ hey so that was it....
[14:52] <kgunn_> thnaks for the help
[14:53] <alf__> kgunn_: no problem, let me know how things go when you connect a second monitor
[14:53] <kgunn_> i'll probably demo tomorrow at wrap up....i still need to find an extra mon
[14:53] <kgunn_> you bet
[14:53] <kgunn_> exciting stuff
[14:54] <alf__> kgunn_: It would be great if you could find a monitor today and try it out, so we have more time in case of problems
[14:56] <kgunn_> yep...i think i may creep out of the meeting i'm in
[15:47] <robert_ancell> mlankhorst, around?
[15:52] <seb128> robert_ancell, he's off today
[15:52] <robert_ancell> seb128, ah, thanks
[15:52] <seb128> yw
[16:00] <jono> robert_ancell, would you mind responding to the post on mir-devel with the guy trying to get Mir running?
[16:00] <robert_ancell> jono, looking...
[16:01] <jono> thanks, pal
[16:10] <kgunn> racarr: ping
[16:43] <kgunn> robert_ancell: your answer on mir-devel....didn't i just prove you need the mesa bit
[16:44] <robert_ancell> kgunn, only if you're running a client right?
[16:44] <robert_ancell> which is the obvious next step
[16:44] <kgunn> yep
[16:44] <robert_ancell> I'll clarify
[16:46] <kgunn> cool...was just double checking, it sort of hit me since i just stumbled today
[16:46] <robert_ancell> kgunn, this problem will all disappear soon when the patch is in the archive
[16:47] <kgunn> ;)
[16:47] <kgunn> robert_ancell: that's what you say to all the girls
[16:48] <robert_ancell> kgunn, that's how you end up with two children
[16:48] <kgunn> :))
[16:58] <alan_g> alf__: happy with this version? https://code.launchpad.net/~alan-griffiths/mir/negate-negative-error-codes/+merge/178041
[17:05] <alf__> alan_g: yes, approved
[17:06] <alan_g> alf__: thanks
[17:06] <alan_g> Have a great evening
[17:14] <robert_ancell> racarr, around?
[17:35] <om26er> how do I stop surfaceflinger ?
[17:38] <kdub_> om26er, 'stop'
[17:39] <om26er> kdub_, figured that, though I had to first 'android-chroot'
[17:39] <om26er> the doc probably needs to be updated
[17:42] <kdub_> om26er, would be an easy patch to make :) (docs are generated from mir source)
[17:42] <om26er> kdub_, sure, branching lp:mir :)
[17:47] <racarr> robotfuel: kgunn: Oi. sorry. family stuff
[17:47] <racarr> should have sent an email
[17:47] <racarr> err robotfuel sorry, tab completion error
[18:16] <racarr> https://code.launchpad.net/~robertcarr/mir/client-focus-notifications/+merge/166440
[18:16] <racarr> can I top approve?
[18:22] <racarr> Let's land this too https://code.launchpad.net/~mterry/mir/session-for-surface/+merge/174406 as per the discussion at end?
[18:24] <kdub_> racarr, i suppose, i think we'll have to unwind it though eventually
[18:25] <racarr> kdub_: Yes definitely
[18:25] <racarr> I feel sort of like it doesn't make our unwinding much harder than it already is though
[18:25] <racarr> espescially as long as we don't use it internally and just let it be to unblock mterry
[18:26] <racarr> and I feel like we have blocked mterry for too long on something that should be trivial
[18:34] <kdub_> racarr, well, switched to abstain
[18:35] <racarr> kdub_: Ok. I think it conflicts with some stuff so I will merge it later once I have an idea of what all that is up conflicts
[18:48] <smintheu> hi all
[18:48] <smintheu> I just saw that a bunch of mir-related packages are in my dist-upgrade
[18:48] <smintheu> is there any way to check if i'm running mir now?
[18:50] <kdub_> smintheu, look for a unity-system-compositor executable with 'ps ax' is a good way
[18:50] <smintheu> from the documentation i read earlier a 'ps aux | grep unity' should show me that if unity-system-compositor is running, i'm running mir, is that right?
[18:50] <smintheu> kdub, it isn't
[18:50] <smintheu> after the update, is there anything I should do to 'activate' mir?
[20:23] <racarr> Can we try and land death-to-single-visibility today
[20:24] <racarr> would like to land that and no-input-for-hiddne-surfaces
[20:24] <racarr> so I can unjam test_client_input.cpp
[20:24] <racarr> and begin improving that
[22:53] <racarr> Taking off for a while. my entire family is in town for just the day so going to spend some time with them . I will come back for a while in the evening to iterate if anyone has time to do some reviews.


[08:10] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu]  Welcome to #ubuntu! Please read the channel topic and consider spending some time on the FAQ mentioned there


[07:08] <lotuspsychje> good morning
[08:06] <ducasse> good morning
[09:13] <nicoz> o/
[09:14] <lotuspsychje> hi nicoz
[09:15] <nicoz> good morning lotuspsychje ;)
[09:15] <nicoz> and good sunday ;)
[09:17] <lotuspsychje> tnx
[10:58] <webchat65> guys when i try to nstall ubuntu i got errn5 and installer crashing can anybody help me. i am really new on linux universe
[19:05] <leftyfb> gah, that damn matrix bridge really ticks me off
[19:06] <oerheks> at least it is not enabled in #u
[19:06] <Jeremy31> At least there isn't a AOL bridge
[19:07] <daftykins> where are we talking about?
[19:07] <Jeremy31> My house
[19:08] <daftykins> a matrix bridge straight into your house eh, that's unfortunate
[19:09] <leftyfb> oerheks: it is enabled
[19:09] <Jeremy31> Dont tell anyone
 <Jeremy31> "Wakko: check> dmesg | egrep -i..." <- which package needs for "check" command? my terminal doesn't recognize it
[19:10] <leftyfb> unless this guy with the [m] nick just like's to add [m] to the end of their nick and types out part of the message that are replying to
[19:11] <leftyfb> that's the part that gets me
[19:11] <Jeremy31> I think the realname is set to @wakkowarner:matrix.org
[19:11] <oerheks> oh right
[19:11] <leftyfb> also
[19:11] <leftyfb> [12:59:49] <Wakko[m]> > Wakko: Does it show in lsusb... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/d20f69745aba8fbe724cd3fd801f34fbfbd36c3e)
[19:11] <daftykins> ah yeah i've seen that style, also the double posts and weird links to shares
[19:11] <leftyfb> this ticks me off more
[19:11] <leftyfb> I have to click on links just to see what they posted
[19:11] <daftykins> it's a great excuse not to :D
[19:15] <Jeremy31> If they would paste to termbin or paste.ubuntu.com it would put it right on my chat screen in a small scroll window
[19:19] <leftyfb> oh looks, matrix supports memes as well. We get to see a link to a meme here in IRC land
[19:24] <Jeremy31> I had to install the 5.13 kernel to get the hantix touchpad to work, but it quits when I suspend
[19:24] <Jeremy31> I just shut it off as it boots in about 6 seconds