[01:23] <grafite_x> hello ... does anyone know if there is a program or api that i can use to structure plain text?
[01:24] <grafite_x> like if i have a tree like structure that i want to lay out in plain text, but dont want to bother with the spacing and placement of the edges and nodes
[01:24] <grafite_x> is there something that would take care of that?
[01:48] <penguin42> what do you want the output to look like and what does your input look like?
[09:29] <maja87> hi
[16:55] <dholbach> alright my friends - are you ready for day 4 of Ubuntu Developer Week?
[16:55] <dholbach> if you're here today for the very first time, please also join #ubuntu-classroom-chat (yes, lernid does that for you automatically)
[16:55] <dholbach> it's the best place to ask questions and chat to other people while the session is going on
[16:56] <dholbach> and please prefix your questions with QUESTION: so the host of the session can pick them up easily
[16:56] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek has the schedule of today and I promise you a lot of fun with the great speakers we have here
[16:57] <dholbach> first up is didrocks
[16:57] <dholbach> Monsieur Roche, comment ça va?
[16:57] <didrocks> ça va très bien daniel :)
[16:57] <didrocks> so, as requested by Mr Holbach, the session will be in French
[16:57] <didrocks> kidding :)
[16:57] <dholbach> haha
[16:57] <Hutley> lol
[16:58] <dholbach> that was the obvious answer of a member of the French mafia :)
[16:58]  * didrocks is eager to see #ubuntu-devel in french :)
[16:58] <didrocks> next jump will be UDS!
[16:58] <dholbach> you still have 2 minutes to get a cold or hot beverage - enjoy day 4 of UDW :)
[17:00] <dholbach> didrocks: the stage is yours :)
[17:00] <didrocks> great! thanks dholbach
[17:01] <didrocks> so, some quick words of presentation first
[17:01] <didrocks> my name is Didier Roche, I'm working in the ubuntu desktop team on updating GNOME and UNE (Ubuntu Netbook Edition)
[17:01] <didrocks> also, as a spare time project with Rick Spencer, I'm hacking on Quickly
[17:02] <didrocks> first question will be from me :) who knows about Quickly? (please answer on -chat)
[17:02] <didrocks> good, the session will be useful so :)
[17:02] <didrocks> a lot of people having no idea what is it
[17:02] <didrocks> So, few words about it
[17:03] <didrocks> Quickly is to bring back fun in development
[17:03] <didrocks> Rick, the person who created the Quickly idea, call it, among other things, an "Application Templating System"
[17:03] <didrocks> the essence of the project is to provide you boiler plate for the kind of program you want to write
[17:03] <didrocks> so the code that you would have to write for every program of a certain type gets generated for you
[17:04] <didrocks> that part is called the "boiler plate"
[17:04] <didrocks> we have different boiler plates right now:
[17:04] <didrocks> ubuntu-application, ubuntu-cli and ubuntu-pygame in lucid
[17:04] <didrocks> but Quickly is also a set of commands
[17:05] <didrocks> the commands are designed to integrate with the Ubuntu Application infrastructure
[17:05] <didrocks> thinks like bzr, launchpad, PPAs, etc..
[17:05] <didrocks> and the commands are what make all that work
[17:05] <didrocks> The moto of Quickly is "Easy and Fun"
[17:05] <didrocks> while I'll answer to the first set of questions, you can install it (not mandatory to follow the session): sudo apt-get install quickly
[17:06] <didrocks> QUESTION: Is quickly and IDE?
[17:06] <didrocks> no, it's not, it's a Command Line tools, that brings a lot of love
[17:06] <didrocks> the core of Quickly brings advanced shell completion, it will suggest you everytime what to do
[17:06] <didrocks> there is a Quickly API, (in trunk only right now), so if people want to integrate if with any IDE, go go go :)
[17:07] <didrocks> QUESTION: Is it a code generator or is it more like a To-do list?
[17:07] <didrocks> it's generate a boiler plate of code
[17:07] <didrocks> but then, don't touch it
[17:07] <didrocks> let me find a screenshot of what the ubuntu-application template generates for you
[17:08] <didrocks> http://blog.didrocks.fr/public/projects/quickly/.Capture-Myproject_m.jpg
[17:08] <didrocks> this is what you get after the first "create" command
[17:08] <didrocks> you can then modify it to a wide range of applications, there is no more action on the code itself
[17:09] <didrocks> QUESTION: Quickly will be ported to other distros???
[17:09] <didrocks> applications created with Quickly should work with any distros
[17:09] <didrocks> there is no dependency on Quickly itself (it's not a framework)
[17:09] <didrocks> Quickly itself is being packaged in fedora and gento
[17:09] <didrocks> gentoo
[17:09] <didrocks> we are waiting for templates for them so :)
[17:10] <didrocks> QUESTION: Will quickly create MeeGo/Maemo buildable programs?
[17:10] <didrocks> see above, you just need a template for that :)
[17:10] <didrocks> QUESTION: How does Quickly differ from Acire/python- nippets?
[17:10] <didrocks> well, acire is writtent with Quickly :)
[17:10] <didrocks> written*
[17:10] <didrocks> also, some of you may use Lernid
[17:10] <didrocks> this is another Quickly app
[17:11] <didrocks> so, you can see that Quickly can enables you to create a lot of different apps for different purpose
[17:11] <didrocks> QUESTION: is quickly a ubuntu project or third party project?
[17:12] <didrocks> as of today, the Quickly devs (mostly me, Rick making awesome work on Quickly-Widgets I'll talk about later), uses ubuntu
[17:12] <didrocks> so, we develop templates for ubuntu first
[17:12] <didrocks> but, the project is really template oriented
[17:12] <didrocks> that means, you have no requirement to use python, or ubuntu
[17:12] <didrocks> I'll go on and answer remaining questions then :)
[17:13] <didrocks> so, as some of you have seen, Quickly brings a lot of tools, so downloading can take a while
[17:13] <didrocks> Note that the current version is 0.4.3 on lucid
[17:13] <didrocks> 0.4 brings a lot of news over 0.2, you can see that in previous ubuntu devweek sessions
[17:14] <didrocks> the rest of the class will be in 4 parts:
[17:14] <didrocks> Creating your app
[17:14] <didrocks> Editing the UI
[17:14] <didrocks> Writing Code
[17:14] <didrocks> Packaging and PPAs
[17:14] <didrocks> (so, to answer a question, yes, Quickly creates packages)
[17:15] <didrocks> so, creating an app
[17:15] <didrocks> this is a single command, $ quickly create ubuntu-application <project_name>
[17:15] <didrocks> (for ubuntu-cli, replace ubuntu-application by ubuntu-cli, for ubuntu-pygame, … you understand :))
[17:16] <didrocks> we support hyphen, spaces and a lot of fun in project_name
[17:16] <didrocks> you can see that Quickly run the application for you
[17:16] <didrocks> so, you already have a complete application ready !
[17:16] <didrocks> not really fancy, but you have preferences integrations, menus, about box, easter eggs :)
[17:16] <didrocks> all what an application need!
[17:17] <didrocks> (of course, wait for Quickly to be installed to run the command)
[17:17] <didrocks> so, Quickly created a folder for you
[17:17] <didrocks> you can cd into it
[17:17] <didrocks> there, if you use tabulation, you should see that you have access to a lot of commands now
[17:18] <didrocks> I won't enter and details all of them
[17:18] <didrocks> the most important is… testing!
[17:18] <didrocks> quickly run will launch your application
[17:18] <didrocks> then, edit the code:
[17:18] <didrocks> quickly edit
[17:19] <didrocks> this will launch gedit and open all your development files there
[17:19] <didrocks> there, you can remove what you want (like the preferences code), and tweak from the default
[17:19] <didrocks> so, Quickly is opinionated choices
[17:19] <didrocks> those choices are made by the template
[17:19] <didrocks> for instance, in the ubuntu-application template, you have:
[17:19] <didrocks> - python as a language to develop in
[17:19] <didrocks> - glade for editing the GUI
[17:20] <didrocks> - gedit as default editor (you can override this by exporting the EDITOR variable)
[17:20] <didrocks> - pygtk for the toolkit
[17:20] <didrocks> - desktopcouch for storing persistent data
[17:20] <didrocks> - launchpad integration
[17:20] <didrocks> all is chosen for helping you starting with your app
[17:21] <didrocks> then, if you are confident enough and know what you need, you can remove each block you don't want and replace by yours
[17:21] <didrocks> or create your own template even!
[17:21] <didrocks> alucardni | didrocks: you missed bzr for version control ;-)
[17:21] <didrocks> of course bzr :)
[17:21] <didrocks> thanks!
[17:22] <didrocks> the idea is really to drive development and help opportunistic developer to know "where to start"
[17:22] <didrocks> rather than beeing lost in choices
[17:22] <didrocks> for helping starting development too, we have a tutorial:
[17:22] <didrocks> quickly tutorial
[17:23] <didrocks> that will fire up yelp to have a step by step app to develop
[17:23] <didrocks> and I heard that an "ubuntu developer manual" is on the way
[17:23] <didrocks> let's move on, I see some questions, but nothing related to that :)
[17:23] <didrocks> so, editing the UI.
[17:24] <didrocks> as told previously, we use glade for that in the ubuntu-application template
[17:24] <didrocks> to fire it up, just use quickly design
[17:24] <didrocks> glade is really awesome for editing a GUI graphically
[17:24] <didrocks> and really integrates in a easy way with python too
[17:24] <didrocks> QUESTION: what is glade?  a short intro about it, please?
[17:25] <didrocks> glade is a tool for building gtk-based UI
[17:25] <didrocks> let me find a screenshot
[17:25] <didrocks> http://glade.gnome.org/images/glade-main-page.png
[17:25] <didrocks> you choose your components and draw them on the application area
[17:25] <didrocks> the quickly tutorial explains the basic of this
[17:26] <didrocks> in fact, Glade is a UI editing tool, that creates the XML you need to describe your windows and widgets
[17:26] <didrocks> don't worry because the quickly template totally handles keeping the code and the XML hooked up
[17:26] <didrocks> if others templates, like kubuntu comes, we assume it won't use glade, obviously :)
[17:27] <didrocks> hence the "design" command to launch it
[17:27] <didrocks> so here are some tips for using Glade if you are new to Glade
[17:27] <didrocks> first, adding widgets works like a fill tool
[17:27] <didrocks> you click the widget you want in the toolbox, and then click where you want it to be on the window
[17:27] <didrocks> the widgets will then fill the space alloted to it
[17:27] <didrocks> to layout the form, you use HBoxes and VBoxes
[17:28] <didrocks> an HBox handles Horizontal layout, and a VBox handles vertical
[17:28] <didrocks> so you will find yourself putting lots of boxes within boxes
[17:28] <didrocks> when you add a widget to a window, you can select it in the "inspector" tree if it is hard to select in the window itself'
[17:28] <didrocks> boxes can be hard to select in the window, for example
[17:28] <didrocks> if a widget is in a box, use the position property in the "Property editor" window in the "packing" tab to change the order
[17:29] <didrocks> you can also set the pack type to start or end to change the order
[17:29] <didrocks> Fill and Expand control sizing
[17:29] <didrocks> while Border and Padding control spacing
[17:29] <didrocks> whenever possible, you should use "Stock" widgets
[17:29] <didrocks> they get translated, the right icons, etc... automatically
[17:29] <didrocks> finally, if you want to add a dialog to your project:
[17:29] <didrocks> 1. close glade
[17:30] <didrocks> 2. run: quickly add dialog <dialog_name>
[17:30] <didrocks> 3. quickly glade
[17:30] <didrocks> ooops
[17:30] <didrocks> quickly design :)
[17:30] <didrocks> quickly glade was in previous version of Quickly
[17:30] <didrocks> this way, Quickly helps you to ship all files to get access to the new window
[17:31] <didrocks> of course, your code can have bugs
[17:31] <didrocks> what's best for debugging than a debugging tool where you can see variable values and such, step by step?
[17:31] <didrocks> Quickly uses winpdb for that. Just run "quickly debug" and you can add breakpoints and such
[17:32] <didrocks> ok, let's say you are happy with your project
[17:32] <didrocks> now, you want to share with someone, or even release?
[17:32] <didrocks> let's say you want to release your first version
[17:33] <didrocks> it's pretty easy, just:
[17:33] <didrocks> $ quickly release
[17:33] <didrocks> this will version your release to YY.MM (the ubuntu way of marking an ubuntu version)
[17:33] <didrocks> you will be asked to bind with a Launchpad project you created
[17:34] <didrocks> it will licence all your files (default is GPLV3 if you didn't run quickly licence by hand before)
[17:34] <didrocks> it will tag your release, change evertything for your, drop the COPYING files to get a well licensed project
[17:34] <didrocks> push your code to launchpad
[17:34] <didrocks> also, the about box will contain the version of the current release, the credit, the copyright, the url to the project
[17:35] <didrocks> (http://blog.didrocks.fr/public/projects/quickly/Capture-A_propos_de_Slip_Cover.png
[17:35] <didrocks> for instance
[17:35] <didrocks> and all that for free! No need to maintain it manually
[17:35] <didrocks> in addition to that, it will create an ubuntu package
[17:35] <didrocks> detecting all dependencies for you
[17:36] <didrocks> will collect all your "quicky save" messages (quickly save is to take snapshot of your code. For those you know, it triggers a bzr commit)
[17:36] <didrocks> it will upload your package to launchpad, in a ppa for people trying our your application
[17:37] <didrocks> it will also upload your upstream tarball, sign it, push it to launchpad, and make an annoucement with your changes annoucement
[17:37] <didrocks> dotblank | QUESTION: Does quickly walk you through steps with gpg?
[17:37] <didrocks> if you don't have a gpg key already, Quickly will help you to create one
[17:37] <didrocks> (same for ssh)
[17:37] <didrocks> it won't upload it to launchpad yet, we are working with Launchpad guys to get that integrated nicely
[17:38] <didrocks> in any case, it will tell you before uploading if something got wrong :)
[17:38] <didrocks> QUESTION: is it possible to change the way of versioning e.g. to 0.0.1 as fist build?
[17:38] <didrocks> just run quickly release 0.0.1
[17:38] <didrocks> then, you have to specify manually at each release the version number
[17:39] <didrocks> but YY.MM is really the short approach and avoid a lot of collision :)
[17:39] <didrocks> so, in a nutshell, in two commands:
[17:39] <didrocks> quickly create ubuntu-application foo
[17:39] <didrocks> quickly release
[17:39] <didrocks> I have a licenced project, pushed to launchpad, with tarballs, announces and ubuntu package to share to the world!
[17:40] <didrocks> sometimes, you maybe want to get some testing
[17:40] <didrocks> and not release really to get people testing this
[17:40] <didrocks> for local testing, you can use:
[17:40] <didrocks> quickly package
[17:40] <didrocks> this will create a package in your directory that you can install
[17:40] <didrocks> for sharing in a ppa, use instead: quickly share
[17:41] <didrocks> this won't change anything, won't licence your project, won't upload tarball
[17:41] <didrocks> but at least, you can get some testing :)
[17:41] <didrocks> QUESTION: does quickly package (version here) also work in order to force a version?
[17:41] <didrocks> of course, but think that you can't upload to your ppa a version with a lower version than previous upload
[17:42] <didrocks> you will see that there are a lot of other commands to manipulate your project
[17:42] <didrocks> like quickly configure to configure the ppa you want to upload, the bzr branch where you want to push/pull, additional dependencies that you want to add…
[17:43] <didrocks> if you use shell completion on license, you will see that we support a wide range of licence too. Adding a new one (or a custom is really easy)
[17:43] <didrocks> last part I want to discuss is Quickly widgets before taking the bunch of pending questions :)
[17:43] <didrocks> so, quickly widgets are widgets that help you to make your life easy
[17:44] <didrocks> contrary to Quickly, this is for python only
[17:44] <didrocks> in one line of code, you can show a dialog asking for a question and get the answer
[17:44] <didrocks> this is generally taking 6-8 lines of codes
[17:44] <didrocks> in 5 lines, you can get a CouchGrid
[17:45] <didrocks> you can imagine that as a tabular, where you can store persistent information, synchronised between your use (using couchdb)
[17:45] <didrocks> hosts*
[17:45] <didrocks> it will detect for you the type of your column, you can add a filter in two lines, and such
[17:46] <didrocks> this is really really great stuff and avoiding copying 50-60 lines from random websites
[17:46] <didrocks> quickly-widgets come with a lot of widget
[17:46] <didrocks> QUESTION: Where can we find information about Quiqly-widgets (couch-grid etc)?
[17:46] <didrocks> as Rick is the main developer, you can find a lot of fun videos over the web
[17:47] <didrocks> http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/ is your central info place
[17:47] <didrocks> ok, taking questions now :)
[17:47] <didrocks> let me a second to take them one by one
[17:48] <didrocks> QUESTION: Say I don't need the preferences dialog in my project can I delete it from the project?
[17:48] <didrocks> exactly, as told previously, you can remove any part of the code you don't want really easily
[17:48] <didrocks> this is mainly for the preferences dialog removing a file and call to it
[17:48] <didrocks> QUESTION: Is template creation difficult?
[17:48] <didrocks> not at all, I've even written a tutorial on that
[17:48] <didrocks> one sec
[17:49] <didrocks> http://blog.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/Build-your-application-quickly-with-Quickly%3A-Inside-Quickly-part-6
[17:50] <didrocks> in general this set of 9 blog posts give you everything you need to know about Quickly http://blog.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/Build-your-application-quickly-with-Quickly%3A-part1
[17:50] <didrocks> but this was about Quickly 0.2, we have 0.4.X now
[17:50] <didrocks> so I wrote some updates: http://blog.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/Quickly-0.4-available-in-lucid%21
[17:50] <didrocks> if you want to build a template upon an existing template
[17:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[17:50] <didrocks> like ubuntu-cli sharing a lot in common with ubuntu-application
[17:50] <didrocks> your can import commands between template
[17:51] <didrocks> templates*
[17:51] <didrocks> for instance, ubuntu-cli is really 0 line of code!
[17:51] <didrocks> I just import every commands I need from ubuntu-application template
[17:51] <didrocks> (apart from design which makes no sense for a command line application), and add dialog
[17:51] <didrocks> so, it's really easy to create a template :)
[17:52] <didrocks> you can even wrote you template in perl with some C boiler plate if you want some fun
[17:52] <didrocks> Quickly is language agnostic
[17:52] <didrocks> that comes to the question:
[17:52] <didrocks> QUESTION: what is the difference between gambas and quickly?
[17:52] <didrocks> gambas is (AFAIK), really binded with python
[17:52] <didrocks> Quickly is written in python but template can be whatever you want
[17:53] <didrocks> also gambas doesn't handle packaging and such
[17:53] <didrocks> Quickly is really "helping your developping your project from start to the end"
[17:53] <didrocks> QUESTION: Can quickly use existing source code?
[17:53] <didrocks> sure, bughugger, another quickly project wasn't written for Quickly first
[17:54] <didrocks> but migrate it to Quickly took half an hour approximately
[17:54] <didrocks> it's just moving files in the right folder and add some glue
[17:54] <didrocks> you won't get automatically launchpad integration for instance
[17:54] <didrocks> (when you release your project with Quickly, project get integration like "Help on/Report a bug" in the help menu)
[17:55] <didrocks> but you will get all the rest for free, which is already a lot :)
[17:55] <didrocks> QUESTION: How hard is it to remove the couchdb support from the template?
[17:55] <didrocks> hmm
[17:55] <didrocks> I would say it's basically removing the preferences dialog
[17:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[17:55] <didrocks> so, not hard at all :)
[17:55] <didrocks> QUESTION: we CAN create templates for templates then?
[17:56] <didrocks> sure, I don't see the point as quickly quickly <origin_template> <dest_template> already help you to create subtemplates
[17:56] <didrocks> it's copying to ~/quickly-templates all what you need
[17:56] <didrocks> I think that's it for question. If I forget some, yell
[17:57] <didrocks> in the remaining times, some links:
[17:57] <didrocks> - so, the blog post I posted before http://blog.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/Build-your-application-quickly-with-Quickly%3A-part1 and http://blog.didrocks.fr/index.php/post/Quickly-0.4-available-in-lucid%21)
[17:57] <didrocks> - https://launchpad.net/quickly of course
[17:57] <didrocks> - #quickly on freenode for support and development on Quickly
[17:58] <didrocks> also, some reviews on 0.2 version:
[17:58] <didrocks> - http://lwn.net/Articles/351522/
[17:58] <didrocks> - http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/08/quickly-new-rails-like-rapid-development-tools-for-ubuntu.ars
[17:58] <didrocks> - http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/canonical_releases_quickly_framework_speed_linux_app_development
[17:58] <didrocks> we got some good contributions and I want to thank everyone helping to make Quickly better
[17:58] <didrocks> (approximately 10 different people have contributed to the code so far, it's already a lot!)
[17:59] <didrocks> hope that you can join, we don't bite and share the fun developping :)
[17:59] <didrocks> I guess now, it's vish's who will explain you how to help Ubuntu in a night!
[17:59] <vish> thanks didrocks!
[17:59] <didrocks> take it away vish :)
[18:00] <vish> Hope everyone enjoyed the Quickly session from the always amazing didrocks!
[18:00] <vish> Never an easy task following didrocks! ;-)
[18:00] <didrocks> vish: don't say that :-)
[18:01] <vish> Hi everyone, I'm Vishnoo and I'm here to talk about how to improve Ubuntu in an evening .
[18:01] <vish> I hope you are enjoying UDW and learning a lot.
[18:01] <vish> Often when we introduce Ubuntu to someone and they are developers, they are surprised by Ubuntu being a community project and that they can get involved !
[18:02] <vish> One of the first things a new Ubuntu developer wants to know is how they can help and make a difference in Ubuntu OS.
[18:02] <vish> Often the quickest, easiest way  to do this is Hundred Papercuts Project
[18:02] <vish> I will begin by giving a little bit of background information about the HundredPapercuts project, and why you should know + care about this project. :)
[18:03] <vish> as always , please feel free to ask questions as you see fit , if you have questions as we go, ask on #ubuntu-classroom-chat   by prefacing them with QUESTION:
[18:03] <vish> So... for Karmic, the Ayatana Project together with the Canonical Design Team focused on identifying some of the “paper cuts” affecting user experience within Ubuntu.
[18:04] <vish> Which we continued for Lucid and are doing it again for Maverick!
[18:05] <vish> You maybe wondering what a papercut bug is?
[18:05] <vish> Briefly put, A papercut is:
[18:05] <vish> "a bug that will improve user experience if fixed,
[18:05] <vish>  is small enough for users to become habituated to it,
[18:05] <vish>  and is trivial to fix."
[18:06] <ClassBot> abhijit asked: can be do papercut for my lucid or I need to do it only for next proposed release?
[18:06] <vish> abhijit: we usually fix for the next development release
[18:06] <vish> the changes are string changes or UI changes which we cannot do after a UIF
[18:06] <vish> !UIF
[18:07] <vish> abhijit: UIF == User Interface Freeze
[18:07] <vish> ok.. carrying on.. ;)
[18:08] <vish> A paper cut is a bug that the average user would encounter on his/her first day of using a brand new installation of Ubuntu Desktop Edition (and Kubuntu too!).
[18:08] <vish> You can find a more detailed definition at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaperCut
[18:08] <vish> Traditionally the goal is fixing 100 bugs per cycle!
[18:08] <vish> [which includes 10 Kubuntu bugs , why 10 for Kubuntu? Well , it  has a smaller team and as kubuntu folks like to put it, "KDE's already awesome!" ;p ]
[18:09] <vish> The ayatana project convenes in #ayatana, so if you stop by there, you'll likely be able to jump right into a papercut discussion.
[18:09] <vish> Now for a few examples which have been fixed in the past year:
[18:09] <vish> Have a look at : http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2964/compiz.jpg
[18:09] <vish> What do you see wrong about that image?
[18:10] <vish> any guesses?
[18:10] <vish> matttbe: getting closer..
[18:11] <vish> matttbe: right!
[18:11]  * vish throws virtual candy to matttbe :)
[18:11] <vish> Now have a look at : http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3686/metacitycompositor.jpg
[18:11] <vish> can everyone spot the difference , now?
[18:12] <vish> Sc10: exactly! these are things users often dont notice
[18:12] <vish> When you are working on something, the active window has to be on top and not the panel. When the window is on top it should not have a shadow on it!
[18:12] <vish> That was fixed as part of the papercuts.
[18:13] <vish> Another example: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/388949
[18:13] <vish> This fix will be released for Maverick
[18:13] <vish> On the desktop if you right click  , you will see an option 'Clean Up by Name'
[18:14] <vish> If you were/are a windows user you'd probably recall an option "Desktop Clean Up wizard" ?
[18:14] <vish> Now since the names are too similar a new user will often confuse the functions.
[18:14] <vish> It has now been re-named to  "Organize Desktop by Name"
[18:15] <vish> That was a simple bug right? all it needed was a renaming of an existing function!
[18:15] <vish> want more examples? ;)
[18:16] <vish> moving on..
[18:16] <vish> saji89: yes simple changes
[18:16] <vish> Now, why should you care about these trivial bugs?
[18:17] <vish> If you are new to Ubuntu and eager to start working on Ubuntu ,
[18:17] <vish> this is the best way to get started!
[18:17] <vish> the bugs are simple changes
[18:18] <vish> helps you get familiar with the coding practices followed and gets you ready for handling bigger bugs in the packages.
[18:18] <vish> it takes you just a day to make the impact!
[18:18] <vish> And the change you make will be in the *default* install of the next release!
[18:18] <vish> This is a very rare opportunity for a new member , to make changes in a default install.
[18:19] <vish>  <saji89> asked : So, how do we know where the specific change is to be made?
[18:20] <vish> saji89: the bugs will be filed in the applications , you need to dig into the source and just change it
[18:20] <vish> Now , not that this is only for new members . ;)
[18:20] <vish> Anyone can fix a papercut , all one needs to think is "what can I improve in Ubuntu today?" Head over to the triaged list of papercuts and submit fixes!
[18:21] <vish> Sounds simple right?
[18:21] <vish> Now let's getting into how to fix these bugs:
[18:22] <vish>  <saji89> asked : So, This digging into source invloves BZR, and such things isn't it?
[18:23] <vish> saji89: if its an Ubuntu specific bug , then yes , you need to bzr branch the Ubuntu branch and submit a merge
[18:23] <vish> saji89: if its an upstream Gnome-bug then patches for the git code would be the best way
[18:24] <vish> saji89: similarly debian == submit patch to debian  :)
[18:25] <vish> Now let's getting into how to fix these bugs:
[18:25] <vish> This is the schedule for maverick https://launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/maverick
[18:25] <vish> The 100 paper cuts planned for Maverick are split into 10 milestones or "rounds" as we have been calling them,
[18:25] <vish> or even "themes"
[18:25] <vish>  these milestones are like themes so that it is easier for a developer , who is say.. interested in Nautilus to find those related bugs and fix them.
[18:26] <vish> has everyone seen the scheduled list ?
[18:27] <vish> Now, the milestones are not hard deadlines, so don't worry that all of the bugs are not fixed yet.
[18:27] <vish> Well, maybe worry a little bit ;)
[18:28] <vish> And head over to the list of triaged bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bugs?field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED
[18:28] <vish>  <mythos> asked: so we take a bug and hope, that it is easy to fix?
[18:29] <vish> mythos: there is not a question of hoping here , the bugs are usually trivial..
[18:29] <vish> as i showed examples earlier , the changes are trivial
[18:30] <vish> often in the rush for new features , developers for the little things
[18:30] <vish> mythos:  We have what is called the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines :
[18:30] <vish> http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/intro.html.en
[18:30] <vish> Often there are certain areas in an application which dont follow those guidelines, ex: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shotwell/+bug/592661
[18:31] <vish> as you can see in that bug , the menu item "File" should not exist
[18:31] <vish> since it is a photo manager , it should be a Photo menu
[18:31] <vish> mythos: so , there is no hoping.. are we clear on that .. the fixes are trivial  :)
[18:32] <vish> well , most of the time.. ;)
[18:32] <vish> if it turns out to be too large a problem we have often closed bugs..
[18:33] <vish> alrighty.. continuing from the triaged list: https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bugs?field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED
[18:34] <vish> as you can see there are a hundred odd bugs still waiting.
[18:34] <vish> See any bug that interests you?
[18:35] <vish> If you are truly committed to fixing it, you can assign it to yourself .
[18:35] <vish> After assigning it to yourself, read the launchpad bug report and any upstream reports.
[18:35] <vish> Then ask yourself, what does this paper cut need before it can be considered fixed?
[18:36] <vish> Make a list, then start addressing those work items.
[18:36] <vish> dont forget to Mark the bug as "In Progress"
[18:36] <vish>  <chilicuil> asked : so, does it really matter to use bzr?, or can I just upload a debdiff?
[18:37] <vish> chilicuil: as i mentioned earlier , if the bug is Ubuntu specific , then a branch will do. else debdiff
[18:37] <vish>  <saji89> asked: So, when we are in need of some help, ehich irc channel shall we contact?
[18:38] <vish> saji89: #ubuntu-bugs, #ubuntu-motu, #ubuntu-desktop on IRC. Or just add a comment on the bug. That works too.
[18:38] <vish> saji89: thats if you need assistance in fixing the bugs..
[18:39] <vish> also , a
[18:39] <vish> #ayatana of course
[18:40] <vish> saji89: the Ayatana Mailing list might be used as well , you you want to discuss the suggested design solution
[18:41] <vish> now , if you look at : https://launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+milestone/maverick-round-9-sc-metadata
[18:42] <vish> you can see the bugs there are just about updating the descriptions
[18:42] <vish> mythos: thats simple right? :)
[18:43] <vish> we just need to make a patch to fix these bugs once they have patches with the appropriate description ,  these have to be sent upstream to debian as well
[18:44] <vish> since it is easier for the debian maintainers when we have the patches with an appropriate description
[18:44] <vish> If any of you attended the shadeslayer's Packaging like a Ninja session, or pedro_ and nigel's patch forwarding sessions you are in a great position to help with paper cuts .
[18:45] <vish> If there is anyone in attendance interested in fixing a paper cut for Maverick. I encourage you to join #ayatana .
[18:46] <vish> Also, pick one of the remaining paper cuts and claim it! Check on its status upstream.
[18:46] <vish> If it needs a patch, create one. Update the patch if necessary!
[18:47] <vish> As i mentioned earlier , these are trivial issues and fixing them gives an OS a polished feel. We need to fix these and there are several such issues which can be addressed.
[18:47] <vish> We want everyone to enjoy Ubuntu as much as this guy > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1-Q_8EbB8A&feature=related
[18:48] <vish> We need to make more people go "Oh! Ubuntu!" ;)
[18:49] <vish> Often there is one problem on papercut bugs! , too many suggestions!
[18:49] <vish> the bug is reported, a simple solution is proposed, someone begins working on a fix, then a new person joins the discussion and says "what if we create a new keyboard shortcut?"
[18:49] <vish> Then a bunch of other people chime in with "+1".
[18:50] <vish> And the existence of the alternate suggestion confuses whoever is working on the bug because they lose confidence in the first solution.
[18:50] <vish> The bottom line is, there will almost always be more than one way to fix a paper cut.
[18:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[18:51] <vish> And people will always jump in the discussion and propose an alternative approach. In the case of paper cuts, it's often best to take the simplest solution.
[18:51] <vish> Remember, the goal is to improve user experience in subtle ways, not to find the perfect solutions to these problems.
[18:52] <vish> Often times, paper cuts don't get fixed because endless discussion of minutia.
[18:52] <ClassBot> Nervengift asked: who decides?
[18:52] <vish> Nervengift: there is a team , the Papercutters team , which takes care of such bugs
[18:53] <vish> it consists of the Canonical design team + community members who have shown design skills in the past
[18:54] <ClassBot> Rhonda asked: So the approach is to settle for something potential subpar because it is the simplest solution offered?
[18:54] <vish> Rhonda: if the fix is subpar , then truly it aint a fix :)
[18:54] <vish> the fix needs to address the problem *and* be the simplest approach
[18:55] <vish> So if you see a paper cut with a long, drawn out discussion, let it play out, but remember that at some point we should pick a good solution and commit to it.
[18:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[18:56] <vish> If people are passionate about alternate solutions, let them craft those solutions and get them in the 100 paper cuts for the next cycle.
[18:56] <vish> But if we can view user experience in Ubuntu as a spectrum.
[18:56] <vish> The goal is to make measurable, *incremental* improvement on 100 issues .
[18:57] <vish> people are fixing simple bugs and have gotten so good at it that Upstreams have taken notice of them , ex:
[18:57] <vish> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/785661804/papercutter-profile-marcus-carlson
[18:58] <vish> Marcus, has now been given GIT commit access to nautilus too.. and all from fixing papercuts :)
[18:58] <vish> does anyone know Nautilus-elementary?
[18:59] <vish> well , it all started because of this guy!
[18:59] <vish> his patches were the foundation for N-E :)
[18:59] <vish> alrighty.. almost time up! , so anyone have any question?
[19:00] <ttx> o/
[19:00] <ttx> Thanks vish for this excellent session !
[19:01] <ttx> Hello everyone !
[19:01] <ttx> My session is a continuation on the "it's easy to help Ubuntu" theme, but more specifically addressing Ubuntu Server.
[19:01] <ttx> Remember, feel free to ask questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefixed by [QUESTION]
[19:02] <ttx> I'll stop a few times to answer them as we go
[19:02] <ttx> So this session is about how to contribute to Ubuntu Server by helping with the Server Papercuts project.
[19:02] <ttx> Thanks to vish you now already know everything there is to know about the One hundred Papercuts project.
[19:02] <ttx> As a reminder, that project is about finding and fixing minor annoyances that affect the usability of the desktop.
[19:03] <ttx> Those are usually low-hanging fruit, but can be hard to spot for seasoned users.
[19:03] <ttx> When we discussed how to improve Ubuntu Server polish for 10.04 LTS, the Server team came up with the idea of doing Server papercuts.
[19:03] <ttx> Finding and fixing minor annoyances that affect the Ubuntu Server sysadmin experience.
[19:03] <ttx> We did that over the two beta iterations for Lucid Lynx and fixed 19 bugs.
[19:04] <ttx> At UDS Maverick we decided to continue that effort over the Maverick cycle.
[19:04] <ttx> One common thing I hear at conferences or when meeting Ubuntu Server users is "how can I help".
[19:04] <ttx> It is wonderful to have such a helpful community, but sometimes it's difficult to find something for them to start with.
[19:05] <ttx> In this session I'll present the Server papercuts effort as an easy way for you to participate to Ubuntu Server.
[19:05] <ttx> Questions so far ?
[19:05] <ttx> OK then, let's continue
[19:06] <ttx> Dealing with papercuts is a two-step effort: (1) Collection and (2) Fix
[19:06] <ttx> If you're an Ubuntu Server user, you can help in the Collection area.
[19:06] <ttx> If you want to get involved in development or packaging, you can help in the Fix area
[19:06] <ttx> Just a few words about the structure of the effort. We organize separate iterations.
[19:07] <ttx> In Lucid we had two: one during beta1 and the other during beta2.
[19:07] <ttx> In Maverick we have 3 of them: one during alpha2, one during alpha3 and one during beta.
[19:07] <ttx> The alpha2 one is completed (10 bugs fixed): https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/maverick-alpha-2
[19:08] <ttx> The alpha3 one is in progress (18 bugs targeted): https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/maverick-alpha-3
[19:08] <ttx> The beta iteration will soon start and will be tracked at https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/maverick-beta
[19:08] <ttx> So the first stage of the process is the Collection. If you are an Ubuntu Server user, you can help us with that.
[19:09] <ttx> If you notice anything that represents a minor annoyance impacting the usability of Ubuntu Server, you can report it as a Server papercut.
[19:09] <ttx> The process to nominate Server papercuts is the following:
[19:09] <ttx> 1. If the papercut isn’t already filed as an Ubuntu bug in Launchpad, file a bug against the affected Ubuntu package
[19:09] <ttx> 2. Look up the bug you want to nominate as a Server papercut, then click on “Also affects project”
[19:10] <ttx> 3. Click “Choose another project” and type in “server-papercuts”, click “Continue”
[19:10] <ttx> 4. Click on “Add to Bug report”
[19:10] <ttx> Then a new task will be added to the bug to show it's been reported as a Server papercut.
[19:10] <ttx> You can start now to nominate bugs for the beta iteration of the Maverick Server Papercuts !
[19:10] <ttx> It sounds like a minor task, but it's really useful for us.
[19:11] <ttx> We are so used to how Ubuntu Server behaves that we overlook things.
[19:11] <ttx> Your input is therefore very valuable, and a very simple way to contribute to Ubuntu Server success !
[19:11] <ttx> Any question on the Papercuts nomination process ?
[19:12] <ttx> Our only listener said "nope", so I guess I'll continue :)
[19:12] <ttx> The nomination period for the Maverick Beta iteration will end on August 1st. Our goal for this one is to have 12 targets.
[19:13] <ttx> During the August 3rd Ubuntu Server meeting (at 1800 UTC on #ubuntu-meeting), we'll review the nominations and select the targets based on the following criteria:
[19:13] <ttx> 1. Must affect server packages (in main, universe or multiverse)
[19:13] <ttx> 2. Should meet current freezes requirements
[19:13] <ttx> Since the beta iteration starts after FeatureFreeze, we will reject for this one papercuts that imply to add new features (or change behavior)...
[19:14] <ttx> We'll keep them for the next papercuts cycle !
[19:14] <ttx> 3. Must affect "Server experience", like:
[19:14] <ttx> * Out-of-the-box readiness (bad default configs, package requiring manual steps to go from installed to running)
[19:15] <ttx> * Teamplay (packages not working well together, while making sense to be used together)
[19:15] <ttx> * Smooth operation (anything requiring tedious or repetitive manual work)
[19:15] <ttx> * Missing documentation (missing man pages, missing inline comments in default configs)
[19:15] <ttx> * Upgrade issues (init scripts failures blowing up maintainer scripts)
[19:15] <ttx> * Cruft (broken symlinks, residue of purge)
[19:16] <ttx> * Server feeling (abusive recommends)
[19:16] <ttx> 4. Must be easy to fix (less than 2 hours to fix, with an obvious and non-controversial solution)
[19:16] <ttx> That's about it for the Collection stage. Questions ?
 QUESTION: Does server papercut involve only small bugs from the ubuntu server edition, or can it include bugs reported by users using LAMP server, etc on their Ubuntu desktop edition?
[19:17] <ttx> There is no strict separation between desktop and server... it's the same platform, only different packages installed
[19:17] <ttx> so if the bug they experience is on a server package deployed on a desktop setup, that's ok
[19:18] <ttx> (as the "pure" server users would probably be affected too)
[19:18] <ttx> Any other question ? Questions on the criteria ?
[19:19] <ttx> ok, let's move to the second stage then
[19:19] <ttx> The second stage is actual bugfixing.
[19:19] <ttx> If you are interested in participating to Ubuntu Server development and packaging, Server Papercuts are the best bugs to start with.
[19:20] <ttx> Criteria (4) above says that the bug should take less than 2 hours to fix and have an obvious solution.
[19:20] <ttx> Furthermore, the Ubuntu Server team will be available to help you in #ubuntu-server in getting your fix together, and to sponsor it when done.
[19:20] <ttx> So it's really a neat way to start with Ubuntu Server development and bugfixing, if you're interested in that.
[19:21] <ttx> If you're interested to participate in the maverick beta iteration, starting Aug 3rd you'll be able to pick bugs from https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/maverick-beta
[19:21] <ttx> If you want to participate *now*, feel free to have a look at https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/maverick-alpha-3
[19:21] <ttx> If you see an yet-unfixed bug there that you'd like to fix, contact its current assignee (or comment on the bug)
[19:22] <ttx> He should be very happy to help you fixing it, rather than fix it himself !
[19:22] <ttx> Teach a man how to fish... or something like that
[19:22] <ttx> The papercuts bugs are mostly small packaging bugs
[19:22] <ttx> If you need pointers about Debian packaging or Ubuntu development in general, please see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/
[19:23] <ttx> The Server papercuts project is at : https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts
[19:23] <ttx> The Server papercutters team (with a cool badge) lives at: https://launchpad.net/~server-papercutters
[19:23] <ttx> Feel free to join the team if you want to get notified on new papercuts !
[19:24] <ttx> The Spec describing the Maverick Papercuts iterations is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPapercutsMSpec
[19:24] <ttx> That's about it for the Server papercuts ! Questions ?
[19:26] <ttx> No question -- so it's all crystal clear and everybody will soon help us finding and fixing Server Papercuts ! Cool !
[19:26] <ttx> Since we have quite some time left, I'll mention other great ways of contributing to Ubuntu Server :)
[19:26] <ttx> To improve our bug reports, we use apport hooks to automatically provide the relevant information
[19:27] <ttx> Writing an apport hook is quite easy and documented at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
[19:27] <ttx> We have a list of packages that could use an apport hook, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ApportHooks
[19:28] <ttx> If you want to help in that area, zul is your man
[19:28] <ttx> Another possibility is to help us continue migrating services to upstart
[19:29] <ttx> It's slightly more complex than writing an apport hook, and more FAIL when you get it wrong
[19:30] <ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerUpstartConversion tracks that effort
[19:30] <ttx> Questions on apport hooks or upstart scripts ?
[19:31] <ttx> OK then, moving on to more exciting ways to contribute to Ubuntu Server then :)
[19:32] <ttx> There are several tasks for contributors...
[19:32] <ttx> You can triage bugs and become a Triager.
[19:32] <ttx> The goal is to move bug that are in a NEW status to a CONFIRMED or INVALID status.
[19:33] <ttx> Since it is difficult to know each and every server package in Ubuntu, we plan on setting up communities of practice over sets of server packages
[19:33] <ttx> like "mail services", "directory services"...
[19:34] <ttx> Thos would be ubuntu-server subteams, grouping experts in each field
[19:34] <ttx> We are still thinking how we can pull that off, but that's the direction we are heading to
[19:34] <ttx> You can improve packages and become a Packager
[19:35] <ttx> that's basically taking bugs and fix them, forwarding patches to Debian in the process
[19:35] <ttx> You can participate in testing plans and become a Tester...
[19:35] <ttx> There are two types of testing efforts: milestone testing (ISO testing) and calls for testing
[19:36] <ttx> At every milestone we produce Ubuntu Server deliverables (ISOs, UEC cloud images, EC2 AMIs...)
[19:36] <ttx> those need to be tested, and that's done through http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntuserver/all
[19:37] <ttx> In some cases we also call for testing on a specific feature or upgrade
[19:37] <ttx> Testing is just invaluable.
 QUESTION: Is there anyone in particular in the server team that I should contain for mentorship on creating upstart scripts?
[19:38] <ttx> That would be the incredible zul again
[19:38] <ttx> Though the foundations team is the ultimate arbiter for upstart script viability :)
[19:39] <ttx> OK, finally you can maintain documentation and become a Documentor
[19:39] <ttx> there is an Ubuntu Server guide, and also community-maintained wiki pages
[19:40] <ttx> sommer is the one to contact if you'e interested in writing a new section, or help with doc in general
[19:40] <ttx> Becoming a member of the Ubuntu Server Team is really easy:
[19:40] <ttx> Process is "Subscribe to the ubuntu-server mailing list" then "Apply for membership for the ubuntu-server team on launchpad" :)
[19:41] <ttx> We meet every Tuesday on IRC at 1800 UTC on #ubuntu-meeting
[19:41] <ttx> Come and see us :)
[19:41] <ttx> Questions ?
[19:42] <ttx> OK, that's about it for the 99 best ways to contribute to Ubuntu Server...
[19:43] <ttx> For the next 15 minutes, we can turn that into a general Q/A session for the Ubuntu Server technical lead
[19:43] <ttx> So you can fire any question :)
[19:44] <ttx> ...
 QUESTION: I see a list of 48 people still pending approval for the Ubuntu Server team.
[19:44] <ttx> uh... :)
[19:45] <ttx> That's because we've done a lousy job processing them. I'll make sure I use a big stick to beat the responsible to death.
 QUESTION: this is in general question. I read somewhere that I can setup my own mail server. so does it mean that i wll have<EMAIL_ADDRESS>email id? now if it is possible is it compusory to run my server 24 hours?
[19:46] <ttx> abhijit: well, you first need a domain name, set it up so that the MX record points to your server...
[19:46] <ttx> then set up a server. It's better if it runs 24hours a day, though you can use a relaying server somewhere else and pull from that one
 QUESTION: In general does server-papercuts include virtualisation issues?
[19:48] <ttx> penguin42: yes, in general. Virtualization is in the server realm.
[19:49] <ttx> Other questions ? Like "what is cloud computing ?"
[19:49]  * ttx can make up hard questions himself.
 now answer yourself!!! :D
[19:49] <ttx> I may miss some time :)
[19:50] <ttx> So, cloud computing is not a specific product or a specific technology
[19:50] <ttx> It's a technological transition towards the usage of computing as a service...
[19:50] <ttx> which comes in several forms...
 QUESTION: Is it possible to ensure old style init.d scripts don't come up before the network and other upstart enabled services? (I'm thinking NIS here!)
[19:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[19:51] <ttx> Omahn87: the unfortunate answer to that is to upstartify the things that need to depend on already-upstartified services
[19:53]  * ttx continues on cloud computing, unless another question is asked :P
[19:54] <ttx> one of those forms is IaaS, infrastructure as a service
[19:54] <ttx> Ubuntu Server provides two solutions for IaaS
 QUESTION: SRU means?
[19:54] <ttx> Stable Release Update
[19:54] <ttx> an update to an already-released Ubuntu version.
[19:55] <ttx> One is a complete IaaS solution to build your own private cloud, it's called UEC
[19:55] <ttx> and based on Eucalyptus
[19:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[19:55] <ttx> the other is guest images to run on a IaaS solution (like Amazon's EC2 or UEC): that's out Ubuntu Server cloud images
[19:56] <ttx> ok, that was the "cloud computing primer" :)
 QUESTION: Is UEC still the future of internal clouds in Ubuntu? You expressed some doubt at the last UKUUG conference.
[19:57] <ttx> We are technology enablers. If something else comes up, we should support it as well
[19:58] <ttx> There are a few issues with high availability in Eucalyptus, it's a feature of their Enterprise Edition
[19:59] <ttx> hopefully by friendly and popular pressure they will recondider that and push it to the open source edition :)
[20:00] <ttx> ok, I'm done, thanks for listening
[20:00] <ttx> without questions it went quite fast :)
[20:01] <charlie-tca> Okay, let me jump in hear then
[20:01] <charlie-tca> I need somebody to give TheSheep voice if possible. It will make it easier for him to help me out
[20:01] <charlie-tca> I'm Charlie Kravetz, known as charlie-tca on irc and the mailing lists.
[20:02] <charlie-tca> It has been a while since I did one of these things, so throw soft stones at me, please :-)
[20:02] <charlie-tca> I am in a dual role right now, as interim Xubuntu Project Lead and as the lead for Xubuntu QA, Testing and Bug Triage.
[20:03] <charlie-tca> I am going to keep the "it's easy to help" theme going, but let's apply it to Xubuntu.
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Thank you, mhall119
[20:04] <charlie-tca>  Xubuntu needs YOU!
[20:04] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu is Ubuntu with the Xfce desktop. Xfce emphasizes conservation of system resources, which makes Xubuntu an excellent choice for any system, new or old.
[20:05] <charlie-tca> We are an alive and kicking project. We just need some more help.
[20:05] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu is an ideal candidate for those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware, thin-client networks, old or low-end machines.
 QUESTION: I build a custom distro (Qimo) on top of Xubuntu, great work you guys have done (not really a question)
[20:06] <charlie-tca> Thanks for saying so. For a small team of volunteers, we try hard.
 QUESTION: if  Xfce desktop is better than gnome (i'm saying in terms of user experience), then why can't the default desktop of ubuntu be changed?
[20:07] <charlie-tca> Great question. I am glad you asked.
[20:07] <charlie-tca> The default desktop for Ubuntu was chosen by Mark Shuttleworth when he started the distribution. Xfce at the time was not advanced enough yet.
[20:08] <charlie-tca> Now, There is Ubuntu with Gnome, Kubuntu with KDE, and Xubuntu with Xfce. To change Ubuntu to Xfce would negate Xubuntu.
[20:09] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu is an official derivative of Ubuntu, built and maintained by volunteers.
[20:09] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu is the Xfce-based distribution with a native 64-bit architecture. We produce both a 32-bit and 64-bit versions.
[20:11] <TheSheep> < Daekdroom> QUESTION: Why is there some talk (and benchmarks) saying
[20:11] <TheSheep>                    that Xubuntu may actually use more RAM than standard Ubuntu?
[20:11] <TheSheep>                    What happened?
[20:12] <charlie-tca> I don't know which benchmarks those are. The phoronx reviews all show Xubuntu using fewer resources, unless the user adds applications such as "OpenOffice"
[20:12] <charlie-tca> While Xubuntu does use many of the same applications as Ubuntu, we also offer some different choices.
[20:13] <charlie-tca> We offer Abiword and Gnumeric instead of OpenOffice.org, Thunar file manager instead of Nautilus, and Exaile for playing your music and audio files.
[20:14] <charlie-tca> Gimp is included by default, for those who need it. Brassero and Firefox are also default applications.
[20:14] <charlie-tca> Since we are an official derivative, we use the same repositories as Ubuntu and Kubuntu. Any user is free to add applications or remove those applications that they want to.
[20:14] <charlie-tca> Of course, we believe the applications included by default are the best suited for Xubuntu and it's goals.
[20:14] <charlie-tca> Those goals are given in the Xubuntu Strategy Document available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument and I would urge you to read that if you are interested in helping out.
[20:15] <charlie-tca> We offer the user many choices. Of course, to offer those choices requires considerable work by volunteers in Xubuntu development.
[20:15] <charlie-tca> We have many opportunities for those looking to take initiative. There are many possibilities for anybody to make their marks!
[20:16] <charlie-tca> Getting involved in Xubuntu is easy and fun!
[20:17] <charlie-tca> And, you do not have to be a developer to get involved! Let's introduce TheSheep to say a few words about non-developer involvement in Xubuntu...
[20:17] <TheSheep> < mhall119> QUESTION: You've sold me, how do I get involved?
[20:17] <TheSheep> Hello everyone, I'm Radomir Dopieralski, I'm knowan as TheSheep on freenode.
[20:18] <charlie-tca> On a related to the above question:
 QUESTION: IN what terms can we start help Xbuntu right away.
[20:18] <TheSheep> I'm an exmaple of a person who doesn't do coding for xubuntu, but does try to help when possible.
[20:19] <TheSheep> The most basic thing you can do is to just hanf around the #xubuntu channel even after your question has been answered and your issue solved (or not)
[20:19] <TheSheep> Then you can see a lot of questions answered, and you can repeat those answers to people who just came in and are asking them.
[20:19] <TheSheep> A lot of questions are repeated, so even a non-exxperienced user can help a lot
[20:21] <TheSheep> Staying on the channel for a while you gain experience and real-life knowledge, so soon you can start helping people with more complicated problems
[20:21] <TheSheep> Another area that is an excellent place to help for new people is the bugtracker
[20:22] <TheSheep> When you use xubuntu for a while, you gain knowledge about which components are responsible for what, so you can start helping triaging bugs
[20:22] <TheSheep> You can look at the newly reported bugs and assign them to the right components, and also ask people for clarifications when their bug reports are lacking.
[20:23] <TheSheep> You soon get a feel of what kind of information is useful in a particular problem, so you can ask people for that and let the developers use the time they saved to actual bug fixing
[20:24] <TheSheep> The next very important way you can help is testing new things.
[20:24] <TheSheep> A distribution like xubuntu is a huge and complicated system, and the more eyes are looking for defects in it, the less will slip to the actual release.
[20:25] <TheSheep> If you have non-standard hardware or fancy settings, you will also make sure they won't break after the update -- by checking the testing releases and reporting the bugs.
 QUESTION: I think the first step towards contribution is to install xubuntu. Is there a way we could try Xubuntu by removing gnome and installing xfce and also same way to revert back is so we don't like the environment.
[20:26] <TheSheep> Of course, installing and using xubuntu is the first requirement, that goes without saying.
[20:27] <TheSheep> as long as you keep using it and report problems, it's going to improve
[20:27] <TheSheep> if you just drop it at the first sight of trouble, the trouble are likely to stay there
[20:28] <TheSheep> There are also some areas where you can help by becoming a little more involved.
[20:29] <TheSheep> Blogging about xubuntu, and generally all kinds of publicity are great.
[20:29] <TheSheep> Even if your benchmarks show what is not so great in xubuntu -- it's also good, because it shows what can be improved, and it shows people what to expect -- so they won't get disappointed.
[20:30] <TheSheep> There is a lot of work to do with documentation -- we don't have enough manpower to keep everything up to date
[20:31] <TheSheep> And, last but not least, if you have any specific skills, you can always use them for helping xubuntu.
[20:32] <TheSheep> I think that's about it -- everything elase you can pick up on the go.
[20:32] <TheSheep> Thank you.
[20:32] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: your stage :)
[20:33] <charlie-tca> Thanks, TheSheep. That is very insightful!
[20:33] <charlie-tca> Having different applications means we must have different documentation. Opportunities exist to get started if you enjoy writing!
[20:33] <charlie-tca> Our artwork is very different from the artwork used in Ubuntu. We use a blue desktop background, and the Xubuntu logo is shades of blue.
[20:34] <charlie-tca> We also design our own plymouth and gdm screens. Opportunities exist to get involved in artwork and be recognized for your efforts!
 QUESTION: If xubuntu is not so great as you said, do you really think that it has the required task (developers) force that it  can improve to the required standards. Otherwise its all not a good thing to shift your focus off 'a single ubuntu'.
[20:36] <charlie-tca> Actually, focus has never been on a single Ubuntu. Kubuntu was started about the same time, in 2004, and Xubuntu has been around since 2006.
 QUESTION: the Kubuntu team made the decision to stick with KDE default look, is Xubuntu committed to matching the Ubuntu default look?
[20:37] <charlie-tca> We are not committed to matching Ubuntu. We do use our own colors and artwork. It also takes some time to integrate the design changes made in Ubuntu. We have to coordinate them with Xfce.
[20:37] <charlie-tca> As an official derivative of Ubuntu, we maintain the same release schedules as Ubuntu. Being a much smaller, volunteer team, this can put a strain on the testing and bug triage group.
 QUESTION: are there plans for an Xfce-based Netbook Edition?
[20:39] <charlie-tca> At the present time, we do not plan a Netbook Edition. We have created ports for the PowerPC and PS3, which we strive to maintain.
[20:39] <charlie-tca> As TheSheep said, Xubuntu attempts to test its ISO images before every release milestone is announced. Want to help out? We can always use more testing, as can Ubuntu and Kubuntu!
[20:40] <charlie-tca> PPC and PS3 ports are available at https://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/ports/
[20:41] <charlie-tca> On the development side, we work closely with Debian to package Xfce for use with both Debian and Xubuntu. Since we are an official derivative of Ubuntu, we also use the Ubuntu repositories and packages.
[20:41] <charlie-tca> If you want to learn packaging, we would suggest following the MOTU (Masters Of The Universe) mentoring program to learn the basics.
[20:41] <charlie-tca> More information about the MOTU program is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted .
[20:42] <charlie-tca> After learning the basics, you would focus on Xubuntu packages. Yes, our developers would appreciate your help.
[20:43] <charlie-tca> Any other questions? Did we answer all your questions for you?
[20:44] <charlie-tca> Well, then let's get you started!
[20:44] <charlie-tca> To start, simply sign up on our xubuntu-devel mailing list and join #xubuntu-devel on Freenode.
[20:44] <TheSheep>  < mhall119> QUESTION: Any specific development focus for Maverick?
[20:45] <charlie-tca> We are focusing on a well working distribution. There may be some application changes, but we want it to work well for the user.
[20:46] <charlie-tca> Since all of us run the current stable version to do our work, it is important to us that is not be plagued with issues.
 QUESTION: What accessibility tools does Xubuntu come with by default?
[20:46] <charlie-tca> Good one. Thanks for asking that.
[20:47] <charlie-tca> While we have the accessibility settings for mouse and keyboard installed by default, the speech and other applications must be installed by the user.
[20:48] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu uses the standard Gnome applications at this time. They do work, without trouble most of the time.
 QUESTION: Thoughts on moving window controls to the left to match Ubuntu?
[20:49] <charlie-tca> Not if I can help it :-)
[20:49] <TheSheep> < mhall119> QUESTION: LXDE has come out as the new light-weight DE, what
[20:49] <TheSheep>                   affect do you see that having on Xubuntu's niche?
[20:50] <charlie-tca> I don't see much effect. LXDE/Lubuntu is aiming at the old pc audience. They use about 30% fewer resources compared to Xubuntu.
[20:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
[20:51] <charlie-tca> If your computer does not work well with Xubuntu, by all means, install Lubuntu.
[20:52] <charlie-tca> Unfortunately, the reviews I have seen all show a great increase in resources when the default applications are replaced with users choices.
[20:52] <charlie-tca> We're a friendly bunch and enjoy helping folks learn the ropes.
[20:53] <charlie-tca> Come on down anytime to #xubuntu and #xubuntu-devel on freenode if you have questions.
[20:54] <TheSheep> ANd #xubuntu-offtopic to just socialize
[20:54] <charlie-tca> As I stated at the beginning, I am currently the interim Xubuntu Project Lead. Does that mean I am a developer?
[20:54] <charlie-tca> The truth be told, I can not write code. My brain appears to be "brain-dead" when it comes to learning new programming languages now.
[20:54] <charlie-tca> I have been trying for about 4 years just to learn bash. The harder I try, the more I "bash" my head. Maybe that counts...  :-)
[20:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
[20:55] <charlie-tca> Simply put, if you want to get started in development and don't quite know where to start, come talk to us. We have room for a few good people!
[20:56] <charlie-tca> I would like to thank everyone for participating! And, a special thanks to TheSheep for helping me out here today. Have a great day!
[20:56] <TheSheep> Thanks and see you at #xubuntu
[21:00] <charlie-tca> Well, everybody can take a break for a couple of minutes until the last session of the day. It is going to be another great time with "Merge proposals"
[21:00]  * jcastro taps mic
[21:01] <jcastro> ok everyoe, unfortunately, our instructor for this session, Martin, is sick
[21:01] <jcastro> and tried to take a bunch of drugs, but that made him worse
[21:01] <jcastro> so we're going to try to on-the-fly turn this into a Q+A session for merge proposals
[21:01] <jcastro> since mhall119's been working with the tools
[21:02] <jcastro> Martin apologizes for not being able to make it, we'll have to schedule a formal session for a later date
[21:02] <jcastro> ok mhall119, why don't you tell us a bit about what merge proposals are?
[21:03] <mhall119> okay, let me start off by saying I'm not a launchpad dev, but I do use it's merge proposal feature quite often
[21:03] <mhall119> I'm one of the loco-directory developers, and I also maintain the django port of the ubuntu-website theme
[21:03] <mhall119> I use launchpad merge proposals for both
[21:04] <mhall119> in a nut shell, merge proposals are requests you make, for the owner of a branch to pull in changes that you have in one of your branches
[21:04] <mhall119> you can do this without launchpad, but launchpad provides some nice interfaces and tools that make it so much nicer
[21:06] <mhall119> okay, so lets do a live demo
[21:06] <mhall119> I just uploaded a new bzr branch to LP: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mhall119/%2Bjunk/imporv/
[21:06] <mhall119> note, you don't need to have a project to push branches to launchpad
[21:07] <mhall119> which is kind of convenient
[21:07] <mhall119> okay, so here we have a branch with a single file in it
[21:08] <mhall119> directory actually, because I was in a hurry and used mkdir instead of touch
[21:08] <mhall119> oops
[21:08] <mhall119> okay, if you refresh, there should be a revision 2, that now has the file /file1/foo
[21:09] <mhall119> launchpad scans the history and contents of branches you push
[21:09] <mhall119> it sometimes takes a few minutes
[21:09] <mhall119> okay, https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mhall119/%2Bjunk/imporv/ now has revision 2
[21:10] <mhall119> usually what happens, when working on a project, is that you branch the development focus branch (usually referred to as the "trunk")
[21:10] <mhall119> then you make your fixes, and upload it to launchpad as a separate branch
[21:11] <mhall119> launchpad is smart enough to know which one you branched from, and so it won't make a copy of everything in your new branch, just the changes you made
[21:11] <mhall119> now, right now /file1/foo contains "bar".
[21:11] <mhall119> let's say we want to change that to "baz"
[21:12] <mhall119> I'm going to pretend I'm a different user for this
[21:13] <mhall119> so I edit foo, change bar to baz, and then bzr commit it to my local branch
[21:13] <mhall119> next I need to upload that to a new branch on launchpad
[21:13] <mhall119> so I run: push lp:~mhall119/+junk/baz-fix
[21:14] <mhall119> you will usually name your new branch after a feature or bug #
[21:14] <mhall119> so, here's my new branch: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mhall119/+junk/baz-fix
[21:16] <mhall119> questions on any of this?
[21:18] <mhall119> anyone still here for this?
[21:21] <mhall119> okay, it appears I've done something wrong with my branches...
[21:21] <mhall119> usually launchpad will show a "propose for merging" link on the branch page
[21:22] <mhall119> that might require an actual project
[21:22] <mhall119> so let me try one with an actual project
[21:24] <mhall119> okay, everyone look here: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mhall119/classroom-scheduler/add-admin
[21:25] <mhall119> you'll see the "Propose for merging" link there
[21:25] <mhall119> well, you might not, because the branch is owned by me
[21:25] <mhall119> if you can't see it don't worry, it's there ;)
[21:26] <mhall119> I'm going to go ahead and propose it for merging
[21:26] <mhall119> when you click the link, it brings you to a page where you can select the branch you want to have yours merged into, as well as a space for a comment about what is going to be merged
[21:27] <mhall119> once you submit it, you'll get something like this: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mhall119/classroom-scheduler/add-admin/+merge/30046
[21:27] <mhall119> this will send an email to the person(s) responsible for that branch, letting them know the proposal has been made
[21:28] <mhall119> once launchpad is done scanning the proposal, it'll even show a green and red highlighted diff on that page
[21:28] <mhall119> can everyone see that?
[21:42] <akgraner> Thanks mhall119!!!
[21:44] <akgraner> ok folks mhall119 has to leave - many thanks for handling an ad hoc QA session!!!
[21:44] <akgraner> jcastro, do you have anything you want to add?
[21:45] <akgraner> If not - that's a wrap for Day 4 of Ubuntu Developer Week!  Check out tomorrow's sessions https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek  and hope to see you back tomoroow!!!
[21:45] <akgraner> tomorrow even :-)
[21:45] <akgraner> Thanks everyone for a great Day 4!!!


[06:23] <artfwo> hi! can anyone help me with a problem - i have a gedit plugin, which creates an extra menu in the toplevel menubar. apparently, indicator-appmenu isn't aware of this and doesn't show the new menu - how can i fix it?
[06:41] <RAOF> artfwo: Hm.  I'd guess you're hitting the same problem that freeciv was.  Let me grab the bug.
[06:44] <zniavre> good morning
[06:44] <zniavre> there is a new solution for this please ?
[06:44] <zniavre> http://askubuntu.com/questions/37747/how-to-remove-apps-available-for-download-from-the-applications-lens
[06:44] <artfwo> RAOF: you mean bug 743265?
[06:44] <RAOF> artfwo: Yes indeed.
[06:45] <artfwo> RAOF: it seems they fixed it by disabling global menu for freeciv completely, this is unacceptable
[06:46] <RAOF> That was the solution for the SRU, but there's also a proper fix in there.  Something about setting ubuntu-local?
[06:47] <artfwo> looking
[06:48] <RAOF> artfwo: http://gna.org/bugs/download.php?file_id=13612
[06:50] <artfwo> RAOF: from the comments i get it freeciv has several menu bars. my case is a bit different - i am modifying gedit menubar (there is only one), and setting "ubuntu-local" property on it will make it inconsistent with the rest of the desktop
[06:50] <artfwo> RAOF: instead, i'm looking for a way to notify indicator-appmenu, that menubar has changed and update it accordingly
[06:52] <RAOF> artfwo: Oh.  I'd guess that's actually just a gtk/appmenu bug, then.
[06:52] <artfwo> which should i report the bug against?
[06:55] <RAOF> I'm unsure.  appmenu-gtk?
[06:56] <MacSlow> greetings folks
[06:56] <MacSlow> hey RAOF
[06:57] <RAOF> Heya MacSlow
[07:20] <oSoMoN> good morning
[07:41] <mardy> Kaleo: hi, I'm afraid bug 687724 needs some decision from design team
[07:57] <Kaleo> mardy: what's missing?
[07:57] <mardy> Kaleo: I commented on the bug: sending SIGTERM is not going to do any better, IMHO
[07:59] <Kaleo> mardy: I see
[07:59] <mardy> Kaleo: the quicklaunch command should be renamed either to "close all windows" or "kill application and lose all unsaved data" ;-)
[08:00] <mardy> Kaleo: meanwhile, I could take up bug 767367, which should be very easy
[08:01] <Kaleo> mardy: great idea
[09:07] <mardy> Kaleo: I see that in some places (launcherapplication.cpp) signals are called directly as method, without Q_EMIT; is it intended? I find it a bit confusing
[09:08] <mardy> (for instance, in launcherapplication.cpp:454, "closed()" is called)
[09:28] <Kaleo> mardy: it's not really intended, I guess it's some people's coding style that went out of control :)
[10:37] <pavolzetor> hi, I develop my own app, but icon of it is blurred in launcher
[10:41] <pavolzetor>  window.icon = new Gdk.Pixbuf.from_file_at_size("../../data/speedyrss.svg", 48, 48);
[10:41] <pavolzetor> using this ocmmand
[10:43] <pavolzetor> anybody could help?
[11:42] <Trevinho> agateau: around?
[12:23] <dbarth> Trevinho: agateau is at the Desktop Summit
[12:24] <cdbs> dbarth: You too?
[12:58] <Trevinho> Ah, ok dbarth... Thank you
[13:01] <ephan> I have a question about Unity source and coding
[13:02] <ephan> How to access gconf values?
[13:37] <andyrock> hi all
[13:37] <andyrock> om26er: around?
[13:37] <om26er> andyrock, yes I am here ;)
[13:38] <om26er> andyrock, how are you?
[13:38] <andyrock> om26er: oh fine, and you?
[13:38] <andyrock> i have a question about a bug
[13:38] <om26er> andyrock, am totally cool thx
[13:38] <om26er> yes ask
[13:38] <andyrock> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/701139
[13:38] <andyrock> has it been already solved?
[13:39] <om26er> looking
[13:39] <andyrock> maybe JohnLea could help me too ^^^
[13:40] <om26er> andyrock,  the assests would be good to have a look, i dont think its fully fixed though
[13:41] <om26er> andyrock, looking to work on the fix?
[13:41] <andyrock> om26er: which parts of the bug is not fixed?
[13:42] <om26er> andyrock, the launcher is desaturated but the lens that is opened that should not
[13:42] <andyrock> andyrock: ah ok :)
[13:42] <om26er> andyrock, if applications place is opened its icon should be clearly visible
[13:42] <om26er> andyrock to andyrock :D
[13:43] <ephan> I have an idea of a contribution for Unity I could code
[13:43] <andyrock> om26er: i'm crazy.. you know :)
[13:43] <ephan> But I don't know what the "rules" on new features are
[13:44] <om26er> hahaha yes you are :)
[13:44] <andyrock> ephan: try to solve unity-community-hacekrs bugs or backlog ones
[13:44] <andyrock> *hackers
[13:44] <ephan> I have skimmed through the bugs more than once
[13:44] <andyrock> om26er: btw maybe it's better wait the new design of the dash....
[13:45] <ephan> Also anyboyd on latest Unity here?
[13:45] <ephan> I want to know if it is possible to change the order of the buttons on maximized frames. thanks
[13:45] <om26er> andyrock, maybe but John Lea would know for sure
[13:46]  * om26er wonders why people think their mouse not moving is unity's fault :-@
[13:46] <andyrock> om26er: i've the same problem... new synaptic touchpad driver sucks :(
[13:47] <MrChrisDruif> PEBCAK?
[13:48] <om26er> andyrock, my touchpad hangs for 2secs after using keyboard so now i'm using USB mouse
[13:49] <andyrock> om26er: same for me.... :( but i can't start onieric due update to x org intel drivers -.-
[13:50] <om26er> andyrock, i was about to start update and it seems xserver-....-intel is in updates mesa also, I should hold of
[13:59] <andyrock> om26er: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/661149
[14:00] <andyrock> fixed about six months ago? :)
[14:00] <om26er> andyrock, its fixed
[14:00] <om26er> not sure about the 'open in new window if approriate' part though
[14:01] <ephan> that is up to the app
[14:01] <ephan> not us
[14:01] <om26er> i have never found myself using this feature
[14:02] <andyrock> didrocks: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/661149 is it already fixed?
[14:04] <didrocks> andyrock: not sure, better that you ask to christian directly or laney maybe?
[14:04] <andyrock> didrocks: where i can find christian giordano
[14:04] <andyrock> ?
[14:04] <andyrock> i've never seen him on #ayatana
[14:05] <Trevinho> didrocks: do you see the nautilus patch I sent? I also asked mpt a feedback... Should I implement that?
[14:05] <didrocks> Trevinho: no, I didn't see it
[14:06] <didrocks> sorry, I'm quite on a flacky connection at desktop summit
[14:06] <Trevinho> mh, ok
[14:06] <didrocks> Trevinho: do you have a bug #?
[14:06] <Trevinho> didrocks: https://code.launchpad.net/~3v1n0/ubuntu/oneiric/nautilus/unity-launcher-support/+merge/70685
[14:06] <gabon> andyrock: Hi, I am christian giordano
[14:07] <andyrock> gabon: hi :) you should write you "freenode" nickname on your launchpad homepage
[14:07] <andyrock> :)
[14:08] <Trevinho> didrocks: It's linked also to another merge for the indicator support
[14:08] <andyrock> so is this bug already fixed?
[14:08] <Trevinho> but I guess I should rever that and just use unity according to mpt
[14:09] <gabon> andyrock: added! :P
[14:09] <andyrock> gabon: and what about the bug?
[14:09] <gabon> andyrock: there is another bug which has been probably followed up better
[14:10] <gabon> andyrock: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/784435
[14:12] <ephan> But this last one is focused on Thunderbird and Evolution
[14:12] <ephan> andyrock's is looking for something general I guess
[14:13] <didrocks> Trevinho: oh nice! that you tackled it :)
[14:13] <gabon> andyrock: this is the triaged one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/764424
[14:13] <didrocks> Trevinho: so yeah, I would suggest doing what mpt advise
[14:13] <gabon> andyrock: marked the other one as duplicate
[14:13] <andyrock> gabon: ok thx
[14:13] <didrocks> Trevinho: I'm back home on Friday (but then, leaving on holidays), so either you can send that to me for Friday, or try on #ubuntu-desktop
[14:14] <gabon> andyrock: thanks to you!
[14:14] <Trevinho> didrocks: I'll try, but I'm leaving for holidays too
[14:14] <didrocks> Trevinho: so, enjoy your holidays first! :-)
[14:14] <Trevinho> and I won't be here before the inteface freeze... damn! :(
[14:14] <andyrock> gabon: i'm working on dnd and i want to clear a bit dnd bugs :)
[14:14] <Trevinho> Yes, but I want to leave with all the pending things done :P
[14:15] <gabon> andyrock: looking forward to play with the new feature! :)
[14:16] <ephan> Dragging files to launcher over programs and making those programs open that file already seems to work, or am I confused here?
[14:17] <andyrock> ephan: well it doesn't work some times
[14:17] <ephan> Then it should be a bug, not a wishlist?
[14:18] <Trevinho> So didrocks from a design point of view, you'd prefer to just show the progress in the unity panel? With no indicator at all?
[14:18] <Trevinho> And what about minimizing by default the progress window?
[14:20] <andyrock> ephan: it's a triaged not a wishlist...
[14:21] <andyrock> or i am wrong?
[14:21] <ephan> Let me recheck
[14:21] <ephan> It's triaged for specific apps in the which it still doesn't work. Sorry
[14:21] <ephan> It's wishlist for specific*
[14:25] <JohnLea> andyrock, om26er; bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/701139 is now obsolete
[14:26] <andyrock> JohnLea: how it should be marked?
[14:26] <JohnLea> andyrock, om26er; invalid - i'll do it now
[14:26] <andyrock> JohnLea: ok thx
[14:30] <andyrock> JohnLea: you marked invalid only for ayatana design?
[14:38] <Trevinho> Kaleo: I've sent some unity-2d branches to be merged...
[14:39] <Trevinho> The second one, however needs to wait the unity-core merge...
[14:40] <ephan> Anybody there can help me making a commit from Natty, needs revision?
[14:45] <Kaleo> Trevinho: ok, thank you very much
[14:46] <Trevinho> Kaleo: just one note, since I'm leaving for holidays if both the unity and unity-2d branches needs fixes, I won't able to perform them... So I just hope you all like them how they are :)
[14:48] <drgomes> ack, wrong command
[14:57] <Kaleo> Trevinho: good to know! when are you leaving?
[15:01] <Trevinho> Kaleo: After tomorrow night
[15:01] <Kaleo> Trevinho: ok
[15:01] <Trevinho> No, sorry... Tomorrow night...
[15:01] <Trevinho> :P
[15:08] <Kaleo> Trevinho: understood :)
[15:09] <jcastro> Trevinho: I will poke DBO for you while you are away
[15:09] <Trevinho> Thanks jcastro :)
[15:09] <Trevinho> THat bamf branch is really waiting for long
[15:10] <jcastro> wait
[15:10] <Trevinho> and due to this delay I didn't continue to hack over it... :P
[15:10] <jcastro> I thought we went through that one like 2 weeks ago
[15:10] <Trevinho> No
[15:10] <Trevinho> It's still waiting for merge
[15:10] <Trevinho> it has been approved
[15:10] <Trevinho> but not merged
[15:10] <Trevinho> https://code.launchpad.net/~3v1n0/bamf/fixes/+merge/65434
[15:10] <jcastro> oh
[15:10] <jcastro> what a punk, he said he would merge it
[15:11] <jcastro> ok I'll drop him a note
[15:11] <Trevinho> Thank you
[15:11] <Trevinho> jcastro: however I'm sad to say that I won't able to do more with the chromium apps for this cycle... Since I'm coming back just after the freeze
[15:12] <jcastro> yeah, maybe we can get jason to do it
[15:12] <jcastro> (hahah)
[15:12] <ephan> jcastro, do you have time to help me commiting some code for the first time? I (think) I fixed a bug, but I really can't test it. In case you're interesed the bug is this one (I made a video):  ephan.57o9.org/UnityWindowButtonsBug.mpeg
[15:12] <jcastro> Trevinho: I think it's important for you to just chillax on holiday
[15:13] <jcastro> ephan: is there a bug report?
[15:13] <jcastro> ephan: I'm at a conference so my wifi is basically worthless with video
[15:14] <ephan> The question is, I didn't find a bug report on bugs.launchpad.net/unity nor reported it because I'm not quite sure if it's a bug
[15:14] <ephan> Or if it's something that was made to be this way (if it was, then I find it strange)
[15:14] <ephan> I understand you can't view the video, what should i Do then?
[15:15] <Trevinho> jcastro: no worries... I'll be in kenya with no broadband or a laptop... So I guess I'll be really far from these things
[15:15] <ephan> Because after finding the bug I rushed to the unity source and fixed the bug, but I can't build Unity on Natty and downloading Oneiric Daily Build isn't an option with 2MB unreliable inteneet
[15:15] <jcastro> well, you can file the bug
[15:15] <jcastro> and attach the video
[15:16] <ephan> Thanks jcastro
[15:16] <jcastro> and then when someone sees the video they'll be able to try it
[15:16] <jcastro> hey when you file it....
[15:16] <jcastro> put steps to reproduce
[15:16] <jcastro> like "1. click here, 2. do this, 3. do that"
[15:16] <ephan> jcastro, I will
[15:19] <Omega> ephan: I cannot reproduce it
[15:20] <ephan> Omega, thanks for trying, but I'm making a bug report so you can know what exactly is the ubg
[15:20] <Trevinho> jcastro: about nautius quicklist... Just XDG folders or also the bookmarks?
[15:24] <ephan> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/823353 there, jcastro I can only send the commit fix if it is Confirmed right? Or can I send it right away?
[15:29] <ephan> brb
[15:58] <om26er_> ephan, confirmed
[15:59] <ephan> om26er_, good, now how to send a commit fix? I think I fixed it but I never fixed a bug before
[15:59] <ephan> I found it quite easy to fix on WindowsButtons.cpp
[15:59] <om26er_> ephan, ever played with bzr?
[15:59] <ephan> I only used bzr to download the source
[16:00] <ephan> I can't even associate my Launchpad ID with it, it doesn't quite work
[16:00] <om26er_> bzr whoami doesnt work? ephan
[16:01] <ephan> whoami worked
[16:01] <ephan> I set my whoami command
[16:01] <ephan> my email and name
[16:01] <om26er_> bzr launchpad-login <launchpad ID>
[16:01] <ephan> "The user davidgomes has not registered any SSH keys with Launchpad."
[16:01] <om26er_> you dont have a ssh key??
[16:01] <ephan> For Launchpad no
[16:02] <om26er_> you need to add your ssh to your launchpad
[16:02] <om26er_> account
[16:02] <ephan> I have no idea of how to
[16:02] <om26er_> ephan, https://launchpad.net/~om26er/+editsshkeys
[16:02] <om26er_> replae om26er with your ID
[16:02] <ephan> gtocha
[16:03] <ephan> just like I did for github
[16:03] <ephan> Done I added it
[16:03] <ephan> Now to add my Launchpad ID
[16:03] <ephan> Done
[16:04] <ephan> Now is there a guide on how to propose fixes?
[16:05] <jcastro> ephan: yeah what you need to do now is propose a fix with a branch or a patch.
[16:05] <ephan> It can't be done as patch, since I'm changing the code
[16:05] <ephan> I need to add my own branch I guess right?
[16:06] <jcastro> https://code.launchpad.net/~3v1n0/bamf/fixes/+merge/65434
[16:06] <jcastro> yep
[16:06] <ephan> I've seen that some of you have branches
[16:06] <jcastro> oops, wrong url
[16:06] <jcastro> http://unity.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/
[16:06] <jcastro> look at "Push"
[16:06] <jcastro> that's the step you're on
[16:06] <ephan> I haven't commite dit yet
[16:06] <ephan> I have another question, does bzr commit take a message "-m"?
[16:07] <ephan> And another, what dir should I be to commit and push? The one where I have the unity folder or inside it? I have unity folder in ~/src/
[16:08] <jcastro> yep
[16:09] <jcastro> you'll push from the unity dir
[16:09] <jcastro> (yes on the -m)
[16:09] <ephan> bzr commit -m "Proposal to fix WindowsButtons Icons Bug"
[16:09] <ephan> But wait jcastro, I need to make my own branch before pushing
[16:09] <jcastro> reference the bug itself
[16:10] <ephan> With a link jcastro?
[16:10] <jcastro> so like "fix for WindowsButtons Icons bug lp:123456"
[16:10] <ephan> Just the ID*
[16:10] <jcastro> you can do lp:###### as sshorthand
[16:10] <ephan> bzr commit -m "Proposal to fix bug lp:823353"
[16:10] <ephan> "lp:######" what is this branch for?
[16:11] <jcastro> the branch has your fix
[16:11] <jcastro> and you're going to attach it to the bug report
[16:12] <jcastro> and then do a "merge proposal", then it'll hit a queue, and then someone will peer review it
[16:13] <ephan> Sorry if I'm a bit confused here. I've used revision control systems before, just not bzr.    My main question now is, in order to push to a branch of my own, doesn't that branch need to exist first? Or is it created with push?
[16:13] <ephan> Ahhhhhhh I got it
[16:13] <ephan> I push to lp:823353
[16:14] <ephan> The ID of my bug, thus it is attached to the post
[16:14] <jcastro> right
[16:14] <jcastro> well, unfortunately it doesn't auto attach
[16:15] <ephan> git push lp:~davidgomes/unity/lp:823353
[16:15] <ephan> that's it right?
[16:15] <jcastro> you need to go back to the launchpad page and click on "link a related branch" on the right of the page
[16:16] <ephan> thanks
[16:16] <jcastro> ephan: bzr push lp:~davidgomes/unity/fix-for--823353
[16:17] <ephan> oh sweet jcastro thanks a lot, already linked it
[16:17] <ephan> Never thought it'd be so easy
[16:17] <jcastro> :)
[16:17] <ephan> btw, will I be emailed when someone reviews and merges?
[16:17] <jcastro> yeah it will spam you
[16:18] <ephan> ok, good spam :)
[16:18] <jcastro> but often what people do is ask in here when you see someone else pop in for a review
[16:20] <ephan> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~davidgomes/unity/fix-for--823353/revision/1352 From what you can see there, it was just the BiteSize kind of bug.
[16:20] <jcastro> cool
[16:21] <jcastro> lamalex: if you've got time for a quick review ^^
[16:22] <ephan> jcastro, if you don't mind I have another question for you. In WindowsButtons.cpp I also noticed it wouldn't be very hard to change the order of the buttons of maximized frames. Is this a feature we're looking for or not really? At a personal level, I'd like it, but I'm not sure if it is in "the plans"
[16:23] <jcastro> if it's a design thing like that usually you can just ask on the list
[16:23] <jcastro> but generally speaking IMO we have plenty of things we can fix instead of adding little crackrock features, but that's just me
[16:25] <ephan> jcastro, I understand obviously, but I'm an amateur coder, with little experience on GTK and some experinece on C++, so I'd rather add little crackrock features than doing nothing
[16:25] <om26er> ephan, you dint propose it to lp:unity
[16:25] <jcastro> ephan: I'll bbl, wifi at this hotel isn't so hot.
[16:25] <ephan> ^ True, how to?
[16:26] <ephan> I imagined it was some kind of Bazaar+Launchpad magic
[16:26] <om26er> ephan, this page https://code.launchpad.net/~davidgomes/unity/fix-for--823353
[16:26] <om26er> ephan, click propose for merge
[16:26] <ephan> ok, seems easy
[16:27] <ephan> I'll fill in the form
[16:28] <ephan> Done
[16:28] <ephan> Status: Needs review, col
[16:28] <ephan> cool*
[18:10] <om26er> ephan_, hey, so I tried your fix it does not work :/
[18:12] <om26er> its in my ppa https://launchpad.net/~om26er/+archive/test/
[18:16] <ephan_> thanks om2
[18:16] <ephan_> I'll talk with njpatel
[18:16] <ephan_> He made the original code, and discuss it with him
[18:24] <ephan_> om26er, did you miss what I said while you were gone?
 thanks om2 \ <ephan_> I'll talk with njpatel \ <ephan_> He made the original code, and discuss it with him
[18:24] <om26er> ephan_, i think
[18:27] <ephan> I wish I could build Unity to test my code
[18:37] <beevvy> Hi, my libindicate-qt plugin to an IM app is crashing that app when unloading the plugin. I tried deleting QIndicate::Server object I was using but it did't help. The crash is in g_main_context_prepare () from /usr/lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0. The only thing that helps is linking the main app binary to libindicate-qt as well.
[18:37] <beevvy> could someone help me fix it?
[19:17] <om26er> andyrock, https://code.launchpad.net/~vanvugt/unity/fix-805327/+merge/66749 are you sure this fixed the QT issue?
[19:17] <om26er> i was thinking to package this to a ppa to make Natty people happy
[19:28] <andyrock> om26er, i think yes...
[19:28] <andyrock> let me show you the code...
[19:29] <andyrock> / evil hack because Qt does not release the seelction owner on drag finished
[19:29] <andyrock>   Window root_r, child_r;
[19:29] <andyrock>   int root_x_r, root_y_r, win_x_r, win_y_r;
[19:29] <andyrock>   unsigned int mask;
[19:29] <andyrock>   XQueryPointer(self->_screen->dpy(), self->_screen->root(), &root_r, &child_r, &root_x_r, &root_y_r, &win_x_r, &win_y_r, &mask);
[19:29] <andyrock>   if (drag_owner && (mask & (Button1Mask | Button2Mask | Button3Mask)))
[19:29] <andyrock>   {
[19:40] <ephan> Is there a way to install Oneiric over Natty via updates? Or do I need a clean install?


[08:40] <duflu> Oh, that's fun. Just got a double-free in a Mir demo for the first time
[08:44] <alan_g> curious.
[08:48] <duflu> alan_g: I also (happily) discovered that loading a Mir server till it drops to 30 FPS has nothing to do with either CPU usage or compositor render time (because both are low, as expected).
[08:48] <duflu> We have something being overloaded without overloading the CPU or GPU
[08:50] <duflu> Hmm, happens very quickly when double buffered. Sounds again like something in the stack is holding buffers too long
[08:53] <alan_g> Is this on both driver stacks or just the phone?
[08:56] <duflu> alan_g: Only the desktop I'm playing with right now. But if it is buffer-holding or some other non-power-consuming roadblock then it could apply to both
[08:57] <duflu> I'm glad I found that, because my quad-core i7 should not reasonably be dropping back to 30Hz that quickly. It has to be a bug
[08:57] <duflu> I'm clearly not running out of power
[08:57] <alan_g> duflu: ack. It has to be contention of some sort.
[08:58]  * duflu suspects we're someone holding two buffers for the frame duration instead of 0 or 1
[08:58] <duflu> *we're somehow
[08:59] <duflu> Lysdexic keyboard TWF
[09:40]  * alan_g wonders why DefaultInputConfiguration
[09:53] <duflu> alf__: Here's a fun one :) ... https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1377853
[09:53] <duflu> Might be the new Mesa to blame actually
[09:54] <alf__> duflu: ack, I will take a look
[10:15] <anpok> alan_g: why it still exists?
[10:16] <alan_g> anpok: why it was ever perpetrated too
[10:17] <duflu> One step forward, two steps back.
[10:17] <duflu> But that was only Monday
[10:17] <anpok> alan_g: it would otherwise spill ugly droidinput adapter code into serverconfiguration..
[10:17]  * duflu runs off
[10:17] <alan_g> It is the cause of LL635-645 in https://code.launchpad.net/~alan-griffiths/mir/fix-libmirserver-symbols/+merge/237101 (where overriding the_event_hub() is all that is really needed)
[10:17] <anpok> that is the case now
[10:18] <anpok> before it had a lot of more pieces it stiched together
[10:18] <alan_g> anpok: I know you have cleaned it up a lot
[10:19] <anpok> alan_g: but I also dislike the consequence (even though it is better than before)
[10:19] <alan_g> But it is still ugly
[10:19] <anpok> we have odd items inside the configuration class we only need to support the implementation details of the android input reading and dispatching
[10:21] <alan_g> anpok: sure. And we have problems with DefaultSeverConfiguration too. (From the API/ABI stability front)
[10:21] <anpok> which is only relevant now because we expose that.. if we wouldnt.. i wouldnt care..
[10:21] <anpok> yes
[10:22] <alan_g> If it were all neat it would be easy to tidy up. ;)
[10:22] <anpok> hehe
[10:42] <alan_g> anpok: alf__ - do either of you feel a need to review this before I TA? https://code.launchpad.net/~alan-griffiths/mir/fix-libmirserver-symbols/+merge/237101
[10:47] <alf__> alan_g: Feel free to TA, unless you strongly feel that we should take a look.
[10:49] <alan_g> alf__: Thanks. I don't feel a need for your approval on this one.
[11:10] <mardy> hi! Is there a way to know if a given PID has a mir connection open (what I need to know, is if I can open a trust session having this PID as initiator)?
[11:15] <alan_g> mardy: as a prompt provider? Or as a shell?
[11:16] <alan_g> The shell could iterate over all sessions looking for the PID. But why would it matter if there's a connection open?
[11:16] <mardy> alan_g: asa  prompt provider
[11:17] <alan_g> mardy: not through a Mir API
[11:17] <mardy> alan_g: would mir_connection_create_prompt_session_sync() return NULL if the initiator pid does not have a mir connection open?
[11:20] <alan_g> mardy: IIRC it ought to return an error object. I.e. mir_prompt_session_is_valid will return false
[11:23]  * alan_g can't see a test for that scenario but thinks there should be one.
[11:24] <mardy> alan_g: thanks
[11:26] <alan_g> yw And thanks for highlighting a gap in our test coverage.
[14:19] <alan_g> mardy: While I (and dednick) think mir_connection_create_prompt_session_sync() should fail as I described, the current code doesn't (it creates a prompt session and then silently doesn't add the non-existent participant to it - ugh!)