[00:10] <desrt> robert_ancell: gnome-calculator seems not to be building in jhbuild....
[00:11] <desrt> robert_ancell: presumably because it's taking the stable branch of vala but master of gnome-calculator
[00:33] <robert_ancell> desrt, I'm not maintaining that anymore
[00:33] <robert_ancell> desrt, but yeah, I think they're using bleeding edge vala
[04:55] <pitti> Good morning
[04:58] <pitti> Laney: I think the properties need to be added to the introspection XML for that, which doesn't currently happen (it's not trivial to do, at least when I tried last)
[04:58] <pitti> Laney: but it's a real issue indeed
[05:43] <pitti> Laney: some nitpicks in https://code.launchpad.net/~laney/ubuntu-system-settings/tests-mock-upower/+merge/198625
[07:04] <didrocks> hey robru, still awake?
[08:58] <ricotz> Laney, hello :), please take a look at accountsservice which is currently broken while the typelib is installed in the wrong place due the multiarching http://paste.debian.net/plain/70639
[09:02] <Laney> hey
[09:02] <Laney> ricotz: can you tell xnox?
[09:02] <Laney> pitti: I haxed the xml in Introspect() and it works correctly for properties with python types, but breaks when you add them over the dbus interface
[09:03] <Laney> & will look/address the issues you found, thanks
[09:03] <pitti> Laney: good morning
[09:03] <pitti> Laney: thanks
[09:03] <Laney> 'breaks' → they get 'v'
[09:03] <pitti> Laney: your upower template update is in sid, waiting for autosync
[09:03] <Laney> yay
[09:04] <Laney> oh, assert raises is nice!
[09:05] <Laney> the 'v' thing is probably due to the signature in AddMethod on the bus
[09:05] <Laney> guess_method(dbus.String('foo')) gives you 's', which is correct
[09:10] <pitti> Laney: I don't much like the testtools assertions, they are too verbose for my taste
[09:10] <pitti> but it seems they are autopilot style
[09:10] <pitti> Laney: standard unittest is self.assertRaises(FooError, function, arg1, arg2, ...)
[09:10] <pitti> (just FYI)
[09:10] <Laney> aha
[09:10] <Laney> I did look in the autopilot docs for something like that
[09:11] <pitti> it's testtools
[09:11] <Laney> yeah
[09:11] <Laney> got it
[09:11] <Laney> so, for this 'v' problem, I bet it would go away if we could unpack the variant by one level
[09:11] <pitti> I don't remember the details any more what was hard about adding dynamic properties to introspection
[09:12] <Laney> it might have been that dbus-python just doesn't do it?
[09:12] <seb128> good morning desktops, happy friday!
[09:12] <Laney> there's some patches that never got committed
[09:12] <Laney> hey seb128, happy friday to you
[09:15] <pitti> Laney: it also doesn't do it for methods AFAIR, dbusmock has to do that by itself
[09:15] <Laney> Yeah, there's something there that I didn't fully understand
[09:15] <pitti> Laney: but dbusmock knows the signature of methods
[09:15] <Laney> nod
[09:15] <pitti> bonjour seb128
[09:17] <seb128> pitti, salut, ça va ?
[09:19] <pitti> seb128: ça va bien, merci ! j'attends comment utiliser TRIM avec LVM :)
[09:19] <pitti> err, "j'apprends"
[09:19] <pitti> seb128: as-tu vu mon nouveau radio ?
[09:20] <seb128> pitti, oui, j'ai vu ça, original comme calendrier ;-)
[09:20] <pitti> ssssh -- "ma nouvelle radio"
[09:20] <pitti> (quoi est feminine dans une radio ???)
[09:21] <seb128> elle chante bien ?
[09:21] <seb128> ;-)
[09:23] <pitti> héhé
[09:25] <pitti> seb128: c'est un bon moyen à souvenier
[09:25] <pitti> souvenir
[09:58] <Mirv> didrocks: if you happen to time today, preNEW reviewing lp:properties-cpp would be welcome. no worries if not, I'll ask someone else.
[09:59] <didrocks> Mirv: I've already other NEWing, but will see if I have some time
[09:59] <didrocks> as you understood in the hangouts, it's really not the day ;)
[09:59] <Mirv> didrocks: no problem
[10:07] <seb128> didrocks, Mirv: I can review properties-cpp
[10:07] <didrocks> seb128: that will be a big help, thanks!
[10:07] <seb128> didrocks, yw ;-)
[10:10] <Mirv> seb128: thanks, great!
[10:10] <Mirv> it's pretty identical in packaging to process-cpp
[10:11] <Mirv> meanwhile, back to qt 5.2
[10:11] <Laney> phew
[10:11] <Laney> found a weird workaround
[10:11] <Laney> can haz mocked properties in introspection now
[10:12] <seb128> nice
[10:12] <seb128> Mirv, didrocks: I'm not going to be picky about that, but why do we put simple CMakeLists.txt we write under GPL when all the sources in the project are LGPL? would it make sense to use the license (or no license, those are simple build file)
[10:13] <didrocks> +1 on using the same license (so nothing written preferably)
[10:14] <Mirv> tvoss: can you answer that ^?
[10:15] <Mirv> I know the loaned cmake files elsewhere are GPL
[10:15] <seb128> Mirv, it's weird to have a "library" package not providing an actual lib
[10:15]  * seb128 wonders wth there ;-)
[10:16] <tvoss> Mirv, seb128 happy to remove licenses from the build files
[10:17] <tvoss> seb128, it's header-only, not sure how to name the package
[10:17] <seb128> tvoss, I guess lib is fine, from the descriptionI was expecting an actual lib/.so ;-)
[10:17] <tvoss> seb128, sure :) I might adjust that to header-only library
[10:17] <seb128> tvoss, thanks for the licences, it makes thing easier (if we have GPL sources otherwise we need to update copyright/ship the license, etc)
[10:18] <seb128> Mirv, tvoss: otherwise package looks fine for NEW
[10:18] <tvoss> seb128, ack, gimme a few and I will have an MP up
[10:18] <Mirv> seb128: ok, thanks for these I'll wait for tvoss's MP and continue then
[10:19] <Mirv> seb128: was it now that you could be also asked to refresh the whitelist of allowed packages to be copied from cu2d to archives? properties-cpp is already in the cu2d-config
[10:19] <Mirv> we need this again while did_rocks is away
[10:19] <seb128> Mirv, sure, can do that
[10:19] <Mirv> great!
[10:20] <seb128> Mirv, done
[10:20] <seb128> Mirv, did you try to build the package in a pbuilder/ppa yet?
[10:22] <Mirv> seb128: yes, built yesterdat https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-unity/+archive/daily-build/+sourcepub/3722961/+listing-archive-extra
[10:22] <seb128> Mirv, great, so I don't need to test that ;-)
[10:22] <seb128> thanks
[11:21] <pitti> Laney: ah, so I even had a disabled test case for that already
[11:21] <Laney> yup
[11:21] <pitti> Laney: many thanks for working on this! /me reviews
[11:21] <Laney> np, sorry for the weird workarounds
[11:24] <Laney> adding support for explicitly specifying the type would probably be decent to be able to avoid the guessing
[11:25] <pitti> Laney: yeah, but would break the API
[11:25] <pitti> or we need an AddPropertyType
[11:25] <pitti> (i. e. new method)
[11:25] <Laney> yep
[11:26] <Laney> I suppose one way around the type guessing thing would be to write our own function to do it that works with both dbus.foo and the python types
[11:26] <pitti> wrt. the branch, this reminds me that we don't have a test case for introspection of properties added in python
[11:26] <pitti> (this should already work, as you said)
[11:27] <Laney> with the XML adding thing, yeah
[11:30] <pitti> Laney: btw, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-dbusmock/0.9.2-1
[11:30] <pitti> that should unblock your MP?
[11:30] <pitti> Laney: you should bump the dbusmock dep there
[11:30] <Laney> oh yes, nice
[11:30] <Laney> will do
[11:34] <pitti> Laney: ah right, it can't guess signatures from empty dicts/arrays
[11:34] <Laney> yeah, something like that, I didn't fully analyse it
[11:36] <pitti> Laney: why the read-only? in the mock you can change all properties at any time
[11:36] <Laney> I semi-arbitrarily chose it because it's what your test-case was going to look for. ;-)
[11:36] <Laney> can fix both to be readwrite instead
[11:37] <pitti> Laney: can do during merging
[11:37] <Laney> ok
[11:37] <pitti> Laney: I change ET → ElementTree already anyway
[11:37] <Laney> nod
[11:37] <pitti> (hope it doesn't hurt your feelings :) )
[11:37] <Laney> nope, that's just a habit of mine
[11:37] <Laney> I think I picked it up from the docs
[11:40] <Laney> it amuses me to see autopilot's cursor get stuck on the pointer barrier for a bit
[11:44] <pitti> Laney: et voilà, d-feet now shows mock properties \o/
[11:44] <seb128> I wish autopilot tests were not that slow
[11:44] <seb128> the ~30 basic tests from u-s-s take already like 3 minutes
[11:45] <Laney> I'm sure it's not necessary to close and open the settings each time
[11:45] <seb128> which would be alright if running those was not blocking your computer
[11:45] <pitti> <jedi wave>use autopilot-sandbox-run --xephyr
[11:46] <seb128> learning every day ;-)
[11:46] <seb128> pitti, thanks for the trick, I didn't know that exists
[11:46]  * seb128 tries
[11:46] <pitti> by default it uses xvfb, which is nice for automatic tests during build etc.
[11:46] <Laney> oh neat, it does work
[11:46] <pitti> but with Xephyr you can see what's going on, but it's more isolated
[11:47] <Laney> ah, just needed to merge trunk for the hotplugging test
[11:47] <Laney> nice when things work
[11:47] <pitti> Laney: merged; how soon do you need this in trusty?
[11:47] <seb128> pitti, thanks for the trick, that's very useful ;-)
[11:48] <Laney> pitti: Well, I'm writing some tests which use it right now, but I don't necessarily have to get them in right away
[11:48] <Laney> thanks for merging :-)
[11:49] <Laney> it means that you can write tests which use QDbusInterface::property against dbusmocked interfaces
[11:52] <pitti> Laney: ok, let me know when you need  this uploaded; I'm working on some ofono template ATM
[11:52] <Laney> oh, yeah, I forgot - timedated templates coming up :P
[11:53] <Laney> so whenever you have a suitable batch of stuff
[11:54] <pitti> Laney: I just don't want to over-do the Debian uploads, and I like landing them in testing
[11:54] <pitti> urgency=medium helps a lot with that, though
[11:54] <Laney> sure, 5 days is fine
[11:55] <Laney> indeed, medium-by-default is quite nice
[11:55] <Laney> I actually forgot until I checked the pts
[12:00] <pitti> Laney: approved; can't top-approve, though
[12:00] <Laney> woot, thanks
[12:00] <Laney> seb128 can do that
[12:18] <seb128> Laney, pitti: done
[12:19] <Laney> merci
[12:20] <seb128> de rien ;-)
[14:05] <seb128> dpm, pitti: do you know how to debug/figure out why launchpad didn't import an updated template from a build?
[14:08] <pitti> I'm sorry, no
[14:11] <seb128> pitti, is the pot supposed to be collected on the buildds in the translations tarball?
[14:11] <seb128> same as the .po for langpacks ?
[14:11] <seb128> or is that a different process?
[14:12] <pitti> seb128: yes, it is; if the .pot is not built during packge build, it can't be imported
[14:12] <seb128> pitti, it's gtk+3.0 in that case and the pot is shipped with the source
[14:12] <seb128> yet https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/gtk+3.0/+imports doesn't have the upload from this week
[14:13] <seb128> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/159463876/buildlog_ubuntu-trusty-i386.gtk%2B3.0_3.10.6-0ubuntu2_UPLOADING.txt.gz
[14:13] <seb128> pkgstriptranslations: no translation files, not creating tarball
[14:13] <seb128> ok
[14:14] <seb128> hum, no, wrong line
[14:15] <seb128> pkgstriptranslations: preparing translation tarball gtk+3.0_3.10.6-0ubuntu2_i386_translations.tar.gz...dpkg-distaddfile: warning: File::FcntlLock not available; using flock which is not NFS-safe
[14:15] <seb128> done
[14:15] <seb128> Publishing chroot-autobuild/build/buildd/gtk+3.0_3.10.6-0ubuntu2_i386_translations.tar.gz for rosetta.
[14:15] <seb128> so it seems that worked
[14:16] <seb128> but it doesn't tell us the content
[14:16] <seb128> pitti, do you know if I can download that file somewhere?
[14:17] <pitti> oh, it's not linked from soyuz?
[14:17] <pitti> hang on
[14:17] <seb128> oh, maybe, let me check
[14:17] <pitti> ah, seems not
[14:17] <seb128> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+3.0/3.10.6-0ubuntu2/+build/5323322 doesn't have it at least
[14:21] <pitti> >>> trusty = lp.distributions['ubuntu'].getSeries(name_or_version='trusty')
[14:21] <pitti> >>> list(trusty.getPackageUploads(custom_type='raw-translations-static', name='gtk+3.0'))
[14:21] <pitti> []
[14:21] <pitti> hmm
[14:21] <pitti> seb128: ah sorry, -static is for doc builds
[14:21] <seb128> that would explain it
[14:21] <Laney> hmm
[14:22] <Laney> dbusmock> can I use AddProperty to add properties whose values change?
[14:22] <Laney> e.g. timedated's Timezone property being updated by SetTimezone
[14:22] <pitti> Laney: yes, you can change any property at any time
[14:23] <Laney> pitti: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6566928/ what am I missing?
[14:23] <pitti> seb128: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6566929/
[14:24] <pitti> Laney: looks fine to me, what is wrong with that?
[14:25] <seb128> pitti, that has the pot :/
[14:26] <Laney> I just get the default back
[14:27] <seb128> pitti, thanks for the help, I pinged wgrant on #ubuntu-devel, seems like it could be a lp bug...
[14:27] <pitti> Laney: oh, of course
[14:28] <pitti> Laney: yes, mock.timezone isn't automagically considered the property value
[14:28] <pitti> Laney: i. e. AddProperty() doesn't do some kind of reference to it,it just takes the current value
[14:29] <pitti> Laney: so what you want to do in e. g. SetTimezone is self.Set()
[14:29] <Laney> ah, yeah, that's what I was after
[14:30] <Laney> yep, that works - thanks!
[14:31] <Laney> muhahaha, timedatectl believes my lies
[14:31] <seb128> ;-)
[14:31] <pitti> Laney: nice :)
[14:31] <seb128> pitti's tools are made of awesome ;-)
[14:31] <pitti> Laney: that's in fact the very tool you should use for the tests for that
[14:32] <Laney> yeah I was copying the logind tests
[14:32] <pitti> Laney: similarly, I use loginctl, upower, nm-cli etc.
[14:32] <pitti> right
[14:32] <Laney> next question will be if there's a way to mock changing the time
[14:32] <Laney> guess this one will be a bit more tricky
[14:32] <pitti> Laney: with timedatectl?
[14:33] <pitti> isn't that the very same?
[14:33] <pitti> Laney: you mean because tools don't usually ask timedatectl for the time, they just use it to set it?
[14:34] <Laney> Right, they use whatever time.h function or equivalent
[14:34] <pitti> LD_PRELOAD FTW :)
[14:34] <Laney> :-)
[14:35] <pitti> Laney: actually, apt-get install faketime
[14:35] <dpm> seb128, I'm not sure I can add more to that. When we used to have problems with imports, we generally checked first if the translations tarball contained the .pot locally https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Internationalisation/RecipeVerifyingTranslationUploads and then looked at the imports queue for the package if it did. If it's an LP bug, then yes, wgrant is the one who could help :/
[14:35] <Laney> ooh
[14:35] <desrt> happy troll^Wfriday!
[14:35] <Laney> I've not heard of faketime, exciting
[14:35] <seb128> dpm, thanks, see #ubuntu-devel
[14:35] <Laney> guess that will be useful
[14:35] <seb128> desrt, hey, happy friday!
[14:35] <pitti> Laney: similar hack as fake{root,chroot}
[14:35] <Laney> hey desrt
[14:35] <pitti> Laney: I've seen it being used in some tests
[14:35] <dpm> seb128, yeah, looking at the imports queue now
[14:36] <pitti> yo desrt, are you a paraskavedekatriaphobia ?
[14:36] <desrt> Laney: you think we're going to have packages in debian that allow you to pretend to be root and allow you to pretend to be fsync()ing but not allow you to lie to your programs about the time? :)
[14:36] <Laney> I hope it supports setting too
[14:36] <seb128> dpm, https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/gtk+3.0/+imports you mean?
[14:36] <Laney> haha
[14:36] <seb128> dpm, it's also weird that this url doesn't like any of the po files for those uploads
[14:36] <Laney> how deep do the lies go?
[14:36] <desrt> pitti: you'll have to excuse me... i'm having difficulty parsing that on account of not being german
[14:36] <pitti> Laney: I think so far umockdev is the culmination :)
[14:37] <desrt> oh!  today is friday the 13th!
[14:37] <pitti> desrt: it's supposedly latinscienglish
[14:37] <Laney> laney@iota> fakeconsciousness am_i_alive && echo $?
[14:37] <Laney> 0
[14:37] <pitti> desrt: got it from http://owad.de/check.php4?id=3429&choice=5&sid=1371626 :)
[14:37] <desrt> pitti: but it's massively long and compound-wordy
[14:37]  * desrt was having difficulty determining the word boundries
[14:38] <pitti> like everyone else in the world
[15:26] <seb128> nice
[15:27] <seb128> gvfs upstream merged our/Debian changes to use a private library for backends rather than static linking in each binary
[15:27] <seb128> one less patch there ;-)
[15:27] <Laney> nice
[15:28] <pitti> niice!
[15:28] <seb128> seems there is a new maintainer as well
[15:28] <pitti> that always has been an icky one
[15:28] <seb128> quite some good work/bug fixes getting in
[15:28] <seb128> good for the LTS
[15:28] <seb128> he also improve the sftp copy performance by copying what openssh is doing
[15:28] <seb128> they have performance close from the command line with the new version
[15:29] <seb128> https://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=7890d2801a7f3998b336452fadc8ad0d01d06e60
[15:30] <pitti> sweeet
[15:34] <attente> is there an issue with fonts in plymouth recently? i only get rectangles for glyphs
[15:35] <seb128> attente, hey, somebody on #ubuntu-unity is pointed out what looks like a bug in u-g-m, http://sourceforge.net/p/geany/bugs/1013/
[15:35] <seb128> attente, is that known?
[15:35] <seb128> attente, basically eating "_" in menus (you can reproduce by opening an image in inkscape which has a "_" in its name)
[15:36] <seb128> attente, @plymouth: not that I know/have noticed, maybe a font issue? did you change you local/install-uninstall fonts?
[15:37] <attente> seb128, didn't notice that problem, sounds easy to fix
[15:37] <attente> haven't done anything special with the fonts, but plymouth changed dependencies from ttf-dejavu-core to fonts-dejavu-core
[15:37] <seb128> attente, I'm trying to get him to file a bug
[15:38] <seb128> attente, you might want to ask on #ubuntu-devel, slangasek&co might know better
[15:38] <seb128> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plymouth/+bugs?orderby=-id&start=0 doesn't have any similar reports
[15:58] <seb128> shrug
[15:59] <seb128> new glib made libdbusmenu gtk2 tests unhappy
[16:00] <seb128> oh, another g_source_remove() fun
[16:00] <Laney> that change!
[16:03] <seb128> tedg, we need somebody to take https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libdbusmenu/+bug/1260779 I guess, would that be you?
[16:03] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1260779 in libdbusmenu (Ubuntu) "Test issues in trusty (g_source_remove invalid use warnings), fails to build" [Undecided,New]
[16:04] <tedg> Uhm, sure.
[16:04] <seb128> tedg, thanks
[16:04] <tedg> We need to stop upgrading glib :-)
[16:04] <seb128> haha
[16:14] <seb128> attente, btw, did you get the osk to work on new versions? any news about enabling back those options Bill listed in his email?
[16:15] <attente> seb128, sorry, i'll get to it today
[16:15] <seb128> attente, no worry, I was mostly wondering if you tried again the osk/if your issues were resolved
[16:53] <seb128> attente, I've tried to make sense of the modifier-tweaks compiz merge request, but I don't have the motivation to read all the comments ... is MCReturn blocking stuff because he wants to fix the gsettings integration mess and ccsm and settings all together?
[16:54] <seb128> attente, or is there a practical issue with the changes?
[16:55] <attente> seb128, it's a lot of yak shaving, but there is one concern which i think is legitable
[16:55] <attente> *legitimate
[16:56] <westfale> 70
[16:56] <seb128> attente, I just commented asked him to not block fixes on "we need to fix the world or we don't land anything"
[16:56] <seb128> attente, which one?
[16:56] <attente> that we can't currently do something like "right control and left shift"
[16:57] <seb128> why not?
[16:57] <attente> because the merge only considers something like left shift with a control modifier pressed
[16:58] <attente> we need to consider extra state if we want to handle that case
[16:58] <attente> and we need to converge on a format for writing out such a shortcut
[16:59] <attente> because shortcuts currently only allow at most one keysym
[17:00] <seb128> ok
[17:00] <attente> i only wrote that MP with the intention of fixing the <Modifier>Mod_KeySym case
[17:00] <seb128> well, it seems like extra cases to handle later
[17:00] <attente> yeah
[17:00] <seb128> but the current changes should be an improvement and not create any new issue
[17:00] <seb128> so I think we should still get that in ;-)
[17:00] <seb128> anyway I commented on there saying that
[17:00] <seb128> let's see how it goes
[17:00] <attente> seb128, thanks :)
[17:00] <seb128> don't worry too much about it
[17:01] <seb128> if he's unreasonable, just put that on the side after holidays
[17:01] <attente> seb128, i'm trying to figure out a way to get it to work without that MP
[17:01] <seb128> ok...
[17:01] <seb128> well, don't spend too much efforts on finding workaround
[17:01] <seb128> if you think that mp is the right think, let's just convince him
[17:02] <attente> ok
[17:02] <attente> i don't want to antagonize him though because we will need more changes soon
[17:03] <seb128> right
[17:03] <seb128> let's be civilized but try to have him to agree than fixing one issue is better than fixing none
[17:03] <seb128> even if the fix is not perfect, we can iterate ;-)
[17:03] <attente> btw, did you see his comment about integrating ccsm into g-c-c/u-c-c?
[17:04] <seb128> yeah, that doesn't seem something we want to do
[17:05] <seb128> but I don't want an argument over it
[17:05] <seb128> just tell him to open a wishlist bug about it and that we would need to get design input
[18:02] <Laney> ok, off now
[18:02] <Laney> happy weekend and holidays if you're starting them now!
[18:18] <seb128> Laney, thanks, have a good w.e, good luck for next week! you can always drop me emails if there are issue, I might read a few next week (still not to book travel for the desktop week at least)
[18:44] <kenvandine> seb128, i'm heading out to lunch, in case i miss you... have a great holiday!
[18:44] <seb128> kenvandine, thanks, you too!
[18:45] <kenvandine> the sad part of this time of year... people go offline for too long :)
[18:45] <kenvandine> seb128, you'll be missed :)
[18:45] <seb128> kenvandine, I'm going to miss you guys as well
[18:45] <seb128> it's good that there is a week off for everyone in the middle
[18:46] <kenvandine> Laney, give me a shout if i don't respond quick enough to your merge proposals :)
[18:46] <seb128> I would really feel like out of the loop otherwise
[18:46] <kenvandine> seb128, indeed
[18:46]  * kenvandine waves, bbiab
[18:46] <seb128> bye!
[21:03] <Laney> oh crap, I forgot to review attente's one
[21:03] <Laney> SORRY!
[21:04] <attente> ?
[21:12] <Laney> was going to look at the language mp
[21:15] <attente> oh, no worries Laney
[21:15] <attente> it can wait till next week


[06:37] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Security:: Episode 165 @ https://ubuntusecuritypodcast.org/episode-165/
[13:48] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Portugal:: E200 200 Commits @ https://podcastubuntuportugal.org/e200/
[14:35] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::OMG!Ubuntu:: Clapper, the Stylish GTK Video Player, Bags Performance Improvements in Latest Update @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/06/clapper-the-stylish-gtk-video-player-bags-performance-improvements-in-latest-update (by Joey Sneddon)
[14:41] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::OMG!Ubuntu:: Don’t Forget: Ubuntu 21.10 Support Ends on July 14, 2022 @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/06/ubuntu-21-10-end-of-life (by Joey Sneddon)
[15:51] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::OMG!Ubuntu:: Clapper GTK Video App Bags Performance Boost in Latest Update @ https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/06/clapper-the-stylish-gtk-video-player-bags-performance-improvements-in-latest-update (by Joey Sneddon)


[07:31] <tsdgeos> handsome_feng: you there?
[07:34] <handsome_feng> tsdgeos: yeah, :)
[07:35] <tsdgeos> handsome_feng: so you get "QML Image: Cannot open :file:///home/feng/lp/unity8/qml/Launcher/graphics/focused_app_arrow.png" when running on the device?
[07:35] <handsome_feng> tsdgeos: yes
[07:36] <tsdgeos> that's weird
[07:36] <tsdgeos> i mean on the device is /home/phablet, no?
[07:37] <handsome_feng> when use run_on_device is /home/phablet, my nuxes 4,  and also can happened on my desktop trough qtcreate
[07:39] <handsome_feng> now , it happy again on my desktop
[07:39] <handsome_feng> QML Image: Cannot open: file:///home/feng/lp/unity8/qml/Panel/graphics/VerticalDivider.png
[07:40] <tsdgeos> and /home/feng/lp/unity8/qml/Panel/graphics/VerticalDivider.png just exists fine?
[07:40] <tsdgeos> and the permissions are fine?
[07:41] <handsome_feng> yes, i confirm
[07:42] <tsdgeos> very strange
[07:42] <tsdgeos> handsome_feng: are you using wily? vivid? vivid+stable ppa?
[07:43] <handsome_feng> wily
[07:43] <tsdgeos> ok, that's a difference from me at least
[07:43] <tsdgeos> handsome_feng: if you do a simple qml that loads that file, does it also fail?
[07:44] <handsome_feng> tsdgeos: hm, i will have a try now
[07:46] <handsome_feng> I found this when I coding for the bug: 1471577
[07:47] <handsome_feng> And Michael said testing my code on the phone does't work
[07:52] <tsdgeos> handsome_feng: so how do you reproduce the problem on the computer
[07:52] <tsdgeos> you're using lp:unity8 with some extra changes or none?
[07:54] <handsome_feng> tsdgeos: ctrl + R , stop , ctrl + R , stop ...
[07:54] <handsome_feng> no changes
[07:57] <tsdgeos> i can't reproduce :/
[07:59] <handsome_feng> hm... :/
[08:14] <handsome_feng> tsdgeos: I made a simple qml file, and it can load the icon without any problem
[08:18] <tsdgeos> try adding the ubuntu components import
[08:18] <tsdgeos> jsut in case
[08:18] <tsdgeos> and now i have to really go
[08:27] <handsome_feng> tsdgeos: I found that if i rename the icon from<EMAIL_ADDRESS>to focused_app_arrow.png, every thing goes fine now! through the icon turn bigger.
[08:29] <handsome_feng> is "although" not "through"...
[13:38] <rakesh__> hi
[13:38] <rakesh__> While setting up the enviorenment for unity8
[13:38] <rakesh__> I am facing this issue
[13:38] <rakesh__> package 'unity-shell-application=6' not found
[13:38] <rakesh__> can anyone help on this please?
[13:39] <greyback_> rakesh__: have you installed libunity-api-dev ?
[13:41] <rakesh__> Nope
[13:42] <rakesh__> Let me get that package by the way thanks for the helo
[13:42] <rakesh__> *help
[13:58] <seb128> is there a standard way for apps to say if unity8 is in desktop mode?
[13:59] <greyback_> seb128: not currently. Why would they want to? That's not a convergent idea
[14:01] <seb128> greyback_, gallery-app has a desktop mode, the current logic they use is
[14:01] <seb128>   // Assume that platformName (QtUbuntu) with ubuntu
[14:01] <seb128>   // in name means it's running on device
[14:01] <seb128>   // TODO: replace this check with SDK call for formfactor
[14:01] <seb128>   QString platform = QGuiApplication::platformName();
[14:01] <seb128>   return !((platform == "ubuntu") || (platform == "ubuntumirclient"));
[14:01] <seb128> that's buggy
[14:01] <seb128> and make gallery be in phone mode on unity8 desktops
[14:01] <seb128> unsure what it should be replaced with though
[14:02] <greyback_> seb128: yeah, not good. Could it not device what layout to use based on the window size?
[14:02] <greyback_> s/device/decide/
[14:04] <seb128> yeah, I don't know
[14:04] <seb128> I'm unsure what the "desktop mode" does exactly
[14:04] <seb128> they show the "import from camera" action only if !desktop
[14:05] <seb128> they also seem to use that as a logic to put things in fullscreen or not
[14:06] <greyback_> I'm not opposed to informing apps about the current form factor, but I'd need design to clarify if that's what is the right thing to do
[14:07] <greyback_> anyway, there's no such information available to clients as yet. So you'll have to hack around it somehow
[14:07] <seb128> k, thanks
[14:07] <seb128> I think gallery needs some work anyway
[14:07] <seb128> I'm just going to record a bug about that issue
[14:07] <seb128> it's not something important to resolve today
[14:08] <greyback_> yep
[14:10] <seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gallery-app/+bug/1477173
[14:14] <seb128> k, other question
[14:14] <seb128> is anyone looking at enable indicator profiles?
[14:14] <seb128> the code is there, just not used
[14:14] <seb128> like loading indicator greeter profiles on the greeter
[14:31] <dandrader> seb128, dednick might know...
[14:31] <dednick> i know nothing
[14:31] <dednick> !
[14:31] <dednick> huh? what?
[14:32] <seb128> dednick, read the line I wrote just before dandrader's ping
[14:32] <dednick> seb128: we were looking to enable the profiles, but then was rolled in mp back by mterry because of lack of design i believe
[14:33] <seb128> right
[14:33] <dednick> as to what lack of design, i know now.
[14:33] <seb128> dednick, my question was if anyone is still working with design on that
[14:33] <dednick> not
[14:33] <seb128> or trying to push forward
[14:33] <seb128> seems it's not
[14:33] <dednick> right. erm. i dunno
[14:33] <seb128> I'm going to try to revive it then
[14:33] <dednick> i'm in the office, so if you want me to poke someone...
[14:43] <seb128> dednick, that would be nice :-)
[14:47] <tsdgeos> cimi: so you basically want me to merge this branch into mine? instead of making it a merge with prerequisite?
[14:53] <rakesh__> Hi one more issue while building the latest unity8 source code.
[14:53] <rakesh__> Can anyone tell me about this.
[14:53] <cimi> tsdgeos, I can do the latter too
[14:53] <rakesh__> CMake Error at tests/plugins/AccountsService/CMakeLists.txt:26 (add_executable):
[14:53] <rakesh__>   Cannot find source file:
[14:53] <rakesh__>     /home/rakesh/ubuntu_development/source_code/unity8/trunk/builddir/tests/plugins/AccountsService/AccountsAdaptor.cpp
[14:53] <cimi> tsdgeos, but use_sdk_13 requires my branch basically
[14:54] <tsdgeos> cimi: why?
[14:54] <rakesh__> Seems not able to get the full source code from bzr
[14:54] <cimi> tsdgeos, well I updated some stuff...
[14:54] <cimi> tsdgeos, both are ok anyway
[14:54] <tsdgeos> cimi: you updated some stuff, but it doesn't require it, does it?
[14:55] <cimi> tsdgeos, I am not sure
[14:55] <cimi> tsdgeos, I havent tested your branch
[14:55] <tsdgeos> i know
[14:55] <tsdgeos> i told you to do it
[14:55] <tsdgeos> you didn't :D
[14:55] <cimi> but I tested dash etc with my new ubuntushape
[15:29] <rakesh__> Does anyone know how to get??
[15:29] <tsdgeos> cimi: i don't think i can test that whole branch today man, there's a lot of things that need careful looking at
[15:29] <rakesh__> AccountsAdaptor.cpp
[15:29] <cimi> tsdgeos, ok...
[15:29] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: how are you building it?
[15:29] <rakesh__> ./build.sh
[15:29] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: it's autogenerated
[15:30] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: do you have ninja-build installed?
[15:30] <rakesh__> https://unity.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/development/unity8/
[15:30] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: you don't need it
[15:30] <rakesh__> I am using this document
[15:30] <tsdgeos> but if you have it it changes how we build
[15:30] <tsdgeos> so it's an important thing to know
[15:30] <rakesh__> nope
[15:30] <rakesh__> tsdgeos, I don't have ninja build installed
[15:31] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: ok
[15:31] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: qdbusxml2cpp  -V
[15:31] <dednick> seb128: know anything abou this? "There is a currently hidden property in System Settings called "Messages on welcome screen""
[15:31] <dednick> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity8/+bug/1358340/comments/26
[15:32] <rakesh__> tsdgeos__ , qdbusxml2cpp: could not exec '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/qt4/bin/qdbusxml2cpp': No such file or directory
[15:32] <seb128> dednick, yes, what about it?
[15:33] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: set | grep QT_
[15:33] <seb128> dednick, that's one of the reasons I asked earlier about profiles, that option makes messages not being listed on the greeter profile
[15:33] <seb128> dednick, but since we don't load the right profile we don't see the result
[15:33] <seb128> dednick, so it's hidden until it can work
[15:33] <dednick> seb128: where is the option? i can't see it in settings
[15:33] <seb128> dednick, it's hidden because it doesn't work
[15:33] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: also dpkg -l | grep default | grep qt
[15:34] <dednick> seb128: you mean because the profiles arent used? or because backend doesnt support?
[15:34] <seb128> dednick, edit /usr/share/ubuntu/settings/system/qml-plugins/security-privacy/PageComponent.qml and comment the "visible: showAllUI"
[15:34] <seb128> dednick, because profiles are not used
[15:34] <seb128> the option changes the messaging indicator greeter profile
[15:34] <seb128> but since unity8 loads the phone profile you don't see the change
[15:34] <seb128> which makes it look like to the user the option is doing nothing
[15:36] <rakesh__> tsdgeos, same error I am facing
[15:36] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: sorry?
[15:36] <rakesh__> tsdgeos, not able to find the   Cannot find source file:
[15:36] <rakesh__>     /home/rakesh/ubuntu_development/source_code/unity8/trunk/builddir/tests/plugins/AccountsService/AccountsAdaptor.cpp
[15:36] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: i don't know what you did
[15:37] <tsdgeos> i'm asking you to post the ouput of
[15:37] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: dpkg -l | grep default | grep qt
[15:37] <dednick> seb128: does that not conflict with "Notifications and quick settings" option?
[15:37] <tsdgeos> and
[15:37] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: set | grep QT_
[15:37] <rakesh__> [01:36 rakesh@param /home/rakesh/ubuntu_development/source_code/unity8/trunk$]  :  set | grep QT_
[15:37] <rakesh__> QT_IM_MODULE=ibus
[15:37] <rakesh__> QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME=appmenu-qt5
[15:37] <seb128> dednick, not really?
[15:38] <seb128> dednick, and that's a design thing if it does, they can change it
[15:38] <seb128> dednick, are you asking that in context of enabling the profiles?
[15:38] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: what about the dpkg one?
[15:38] <seb128> dednick, but that's likely not the only case where the profiles need to be different, on desktop it's more visibiel
[15:38] <rakesh__> tsdgeos, for dpkg one I am getting nothing
[15:38] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: do you develop other qt software?
[15:38] <seb128> dednick, things like the session indicator shouldn't let you open settings on the greeter
[15:38] <rakesh__> nope
[15:39] <rakesh__> tsdgeos, I have just started eveything from scratch
[15:39] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: install the qt5-default package
[15:39] <tsdgeos> that should help
[15:40] <dednick> seb128: is the "allow notification" related to the bubbles, and not the messages?
[15:40] <dednick> whatever... it's a design/backend distinction. i guess we can just enable the profile switching.
[15:41] <rakesh__> tsdgeos, A BIG THANNKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
[15:41] <seb128> dednick, correct
[15:41] <rakesh__> tsdgeos, Able to start the building process
[15:41] <rakesh__> tsdgeos, CHEERS
[15:41] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: ./build.sh should have installed that
[15:41] <tsdgeos> i guess you Ctrl+C'ed when it asked for the password the first time
[15:41] <tsdgeos> and it only does ask you to install stuff once
[15:42] <rakesh__> tsdgeos, Why these steps are missing in the setting up unity8 document?
[15:42] <tsdgeos> rakesh__: it is not missing
[15:42] <tsdgeos> see what i just said
[15:42] <tsdgeos> ./build.sh wants to install that pacakge
[15:42] <tsdgeos> it asked you for your root password
[15:42] <tsdgeos> and you cancelled the process
[15:43] <tsdgeos> then the next time it doesn't ask you anymore
[15:43] <tsdgeos> so basically you "broke it"
[15:43] <tsdgeos> agreed it's not the most resilient thing ever
[15:43] <tsdgeos> but oh well :D
[15:43] <rakesh__> By the way thanks mate.
[15:48] <dednick> seb128: i'll pick it up.
[15:49] <seb128> dednick, enabling the profiles? did design agree to it?
[15:50] <seb128> dednick, the code is there working, it's just a matter to set the profile in unity, I tried that as a local hack the other day
[15:50] <seb128> dednick, thanks
[15:52] <dednick> seb128: i meant i'll pick it up with design, and sort it if they approve.
[15:52] <seb128> dednick, thanks!
[15:52] <seb128> dednick, let me know if you open a new bug for that


[00:37] <Unit193> Gookies. :D
[00:37] <knome> ooh, he's back
[00:38] <Unit193> Yarp.
[00:39] <Unit193> I gotted a mention.
[00:39] <knome> no kidding there
[00:41] <Unit193> sidi: Congrats on the gtk+3.0 mention.
[00:46] <bluesabre> +1
[05:52] <Unit193> bluesabre: Can I update ppa:extras to very shortly point to xfdashy and xfce4-soundmenu bugzilla links?  We want people testing to report, and a reminder helps (but grows he description a bit. :/ )
[07:19] <Unit193> fb6fab41        02_add-light-locker-to-xflock4.patch
[07:19] <Unit193> fb6fab41        03_add-light-locker-to-xflock4.patch
[07:19] <Unit193> Nice.
[07:22] <Unit193> https://sources.debian.net/src/xfce4-session/4.12.1-1/debian/patches/ go home Debian, you're drunk.
[07:23] <elfy> let's hope it's not UTC there - 7am is too early for that behaviour
[07:30] <Unit193> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-session/patch/?id=26f9ae8df629f02af0773df2ed82db6b85c5b556 I wanted that, Uploading xfce4-session_4.12.1-1ubuntu2~15.04.dsc: done.
[08:23] <sidi> Unit193, were you guys having problems with it?
[08:23] <Unit193> Don't think so.
[08:42] <ochosi> morning everyone
[08:45] <sidi> morning Simon
[08:45] <Unit193> Morning, Steve.
[08:45] <ochosi> morning, err, Unit?
[09:11] <sidi> :D
[11:38] <bluesabre> Unit193: yup, mentioned that earlier about the double patches, but we got that from debian :)
[11:39] <bluesabre> Unit193: I added you to -dev, so yeah, update the ppa info
[21:04] <knome> Unit193, sure, let's have the discussion here.
[21:05] <knome> re: discussion on whether the community voice is heard or not, and whether it can have any effect on what the team decides
[21:06] <knome> the sidetrack being if this channel is too "frightening" for people to talk in (because of logging or the more official status, whatever that might mean)
[21:06] <GridCube> i tried to make a rationale of why i would like to change gmb, i think ali is making it again, but there is no interest in hearing about it
[21:06] <knome> GridCube, and how do you come to that conclusion?
[21:07] <GridCube> because there was no other input than mine in my first try, and ali is doing all the work alone again
[21:08] <knome> so to be "interested in hearing", you think that several team members should "help" the person who wants change to do his comparison?
[21:08] <GridCube> again i understand the main counter argument, no one is willing to mantain the packages they don't care about, so who will?
[21:08] <knome> that's not even a counter argument what i'm asking about
[21:09] <GridCube> knome: yes, because they are taking the time to try and help the project be a little bit better, at least some input, some help, something that tells us that we are being listened
[21:10] <knome> GridCube, but don't you think the reason why team members aren't doing it in the first place is the lack of time?
[21:10] <knome> GridCube, it isn't like people were working on it, and when somebody outside the team started working on it, everybody washed their hands from it
[21:11] <Unit193> knome: Fine.  You act like you're saying "patches welcome", but everything else you say seems to be "Well formatted patches that conform to our standards and don't change anything else welcome"
[21:11] <GridCube> sure, absolutelly, and tahts why is correct that the people who thinks that things need to change are the ones who have to do the work, but at least we would like to know that we are going to be listened, that theres some interest from your side to hear about it
[21:12] <knome> Unit193, how do you come to that conclusion?
[21:12] <Unit193> It's an impression.
[21:12] <knome> GridCube, we're definitely interested.
[21:12] <GridCube> doesnt seems like it, sorry
[21:12] <Unit193> GridCube +1
[21:13] <GridCube> im not the first one, nor is ali1234, to point gmb is not a good media player, but theres absolutelly no interest on hearing about it
[21:13] <GridCube> and thats just an example
[21:13] <knome> what should the team do then to make it feel like we're listening, if we leave out "work with them" (since it's a question of lack of time to begin with)
[21:13] <GridCube> i dont know
[21:14] <knome> GridCube, the reason why i've told him that i am not interested in hearing why gmb is not a good media player is because i'd rather hear which application is a good media player
[21:14] <GridCube> that has been done, ali1234 has done it, i have done it
[21:15] <brainwash> 15.04 will be released very soon, so there is plenty of time to discuss if the audio player should be changed in 15.10 or later
[21:15] <brainwash> there is no hurry
[21:15] <knome> GridCube, i appreciated your effort, but maybe you dropped the ball a bit too early
[21:15] <GridCube> maybe
[21:15] <Unit193> Heck, use aqualung for all I care, as long as it isn't gmb.
[21:16] <Unit193> knome: You/ochosi decided with GridCube at the time that perhaps because of his strong dislike for gmb, his bias may cloud things.
[21:16] <knome> tbh, it became gmb-bashing
[21:17] <knome> which is unproductive because that doesn't address how we should fix the issue but what the issue is
[21:17] <GridCube> im not saying im not at fault here, i just felt un-apreciated, i felt that whatever i did was falling on deaf ears so it made no sense for me to try, same with gthumb, we got it in once we had to drop gimp for space reasons, it was good because its a good replacement, next cycles it was deleted because "does the same as gimp and ristretto"
[21:17] <GridCube> sure, whynot get rid of gimp and ristretto and leave gthumb then?
[21:18] <knome> GridCube, because nobody proposed that when the discussion was open, only once we had started voting on the options brought up.
[21:18] <GridCube> i did
[21:18] <knome> right, but i didn't see much support for that
[21:19] <Noskcaj> GridCube, I'd support it if someone writes a menubar patch for gthumb, until then, it's staying unmaintained in debian and unused by us
[21:19] <GridCube> Noskcaj: good point, thats why i keep saying that it makes no sense for me to propose anything because "who will maintain it"
[21:20] <knome> GridCube, but that's not something the team can affect, is it?
[21:20] <GridCube> i can't do it, i dont have the technicall abilities to do so
[21:20] <GridCube> exactly, and thats again why i dropped the case in the first place
[21:20] <Noskcaj> GridCube, Actually, there is now a debian maintainer. So all you need is to ask gnome devs enough times for a patch
[21:20] <knome> it's sad but true that the only way to know how many people actually NEED gimp (or anything else) installed in the default installation is to drop it and hear the feedback
[21:21] <Unit193> I'll admit that while I think gimp can be overkill, it's a nice one to have.
[21:21] <knome> that's one of the reasons we are doing this well before the LTS release so we have time to react to feedback
[21:21] <GridCube> we had already droped it
[21:21] <GridCube> nothing really bad happened at all
[21:21] <knome> GridCube, yep.
[21:22] <knome> GridCube, that's my position, it's probably going to be just fine
[21:22] <knome> even if people argue vocally about it
[21:22] <GridCube> agreed
[21:22] <knome> Unit193, i kind of think the same... then i realize i very rarely even open gimp
[21:22] <Unit193> True.
[21:22] <GridCube> (if we provide alternative to image edition)
[21:23] <knome> so i don't think it's a requirement even for me (if i composed my own default seed), and i happen to work with artwork
[21:23] <knome> GridCube, even without an alternative.
[21:23] <knome> GridCube, i'm not using anything that can be counted as an alternative regularly
[21:23] <Unit193> I tend to use it, when I could have used something like xnview in Windows. :P
[21:24] <knome> a small set of scripts or something would be fine for most
[21:24] <knome> rotate, resize
[21:24] <knome> things like that
[21:25] <GridCube> imagemagic has a sort of gui that does that, but its very ugly
[21:26] <knome> GridCube, i said that in the meeting already, but it could even be a set of thunar custom actions as far as i care
[21:26] <knome> (that did it via imagemagick's CLI commands)
[21:26] <GridCube> mmhm, that could be nice
[21:27] <knome> and light.
[21:28] <mrkramps> you could use extactimage instead which should be smaller than imagemagick
[21:28] <knome> well again, the technical implementation is a side-issue
[21:29] <knome> if somebody is interested enough, they'll work their way this way or the other
[21:29] <knome> and even imagemagick is smaller than gimp...
[21:40] <ochosi> time and time again, it's interesting how much the emotion the default app set conjures
[21:40] <ochosi> whoa, i need to redact that sentence, let me try again...
[21:40] <knome> lol
[21:41] <ochosi> time and time again, it's interesting to see how much emotion the default app set conjures
[21:42] <knome> right
[21:42] <knome> but it's also sad to see that it generates frustration, because "the team isn't listening"
[21:43] <ochosi> yeah, oh well. people complain about various things all the time
[21:43] <ochosi> i'm not happy about people being frustrated, then again i really feel that i try to listen
[21:43] <knome> sure, but i wonder if there is anything that the team could help to fight that frustration
[21:43] <knome> or even some team members.
[21:44] <ochosi> then again, i'm frustrated about people expecting *me* to do the things they're interested in or want changed
[21:44] <knome> i mean, even some team members being frustrated
[21:44] <knome> or things that simple aren't up high enough on the priority, so they are being postponed
[21:45] <ochosi> is this still (and foremostly) about gmusicbrowser?
[21:45] <knome> i believe that it is
[21:45] <knome> and that's also a sad part
[21:45] <knome> because the default media player choice/change shouldn't be about gmb, it should be about the other players..
[21:47] <ochosi> so what's the status on the comparison that ali started?
[21:47] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/W/DefaultMediaPlayer
[21:47] <Unit193> Considering it's not just me (as a team member) annoyed?  Yeah.
[21:48] <knome> Unit193, i didn't get that
[21:49] <mrkramps> eh, audacious can do "jump to song"
[21:49] <ochosi> yeah, i dont think the table is completely correct. also, that's only a starting point
[21:50] <knome> mmazing, to be fair, gmb can do several of the tasks mentioned in the table that it's marked as "can't do"
[21:50] <knome> mrkramps, ^
[21:50] <ochosi> Unit193: so what about dropping gmusicbrowser without replacement?
[21:50] <knome> i guess the outcome depends on the subjectively relative findability of those features
[21:50] <mmazing> i was gonna say haha, geez, i just join and people are already angry with me
[21:51] <Unit193> Just, hidden, in the closet behind the old table.
[21:51] <knome> mmazing, not angry at all, just commenting. and sorry for the accidental highlight
[21:51] <Unit193> ochosi: At this point, that'd be great.  Parole has a basic media library no?
[21:51] <mmazing> knome: i know :) just kidding around
[21:51] <Unit193> ochosi: But, I'm fine with recommending gmb, or something.
[21:51] <ochosi> Unit193: nope, no library. but playback and playlists/streams etc
[21:52] <knome> ochosi, Unit193: some people argue that there is no way we couldn't do without a "real" media player
[21:52] <knome> err, "could do"...
[21:52] <ochosi> they might say the same thing about office suits
[21:52] <knome> yes.
[21:52] <elfy> oh my
[21:52] <ochosi> and given that we don't have the final result of the vote, it could happen
[21:52] <knome> elfy, welcome...
[21:52] <ochosi> i mean seriously you guys, how bad can it be?
[21:52] <Unit193> Hah. :D
[21:52] <Unit193> !info webservice-office-zoho
[21:52] <knome> ochosi, i'm fine with dropping gmb too with no replacement.
[21:53] <knome> as i've said before, it seems like the only "not wrong" option
[21:53] <Unit193> But, we're not trying to create xubuntu-core with xubuntu-desktop, fwiw.
[21:53] <ochosi> blog XY will go "they destroyed xubuntu!!!" or "they mistreat their users" (mistakingly thinking that we're service providers to customers), but that'll be about it
[21:53] <knome> Unit193, no, there is still FF/TB at least...
[21:53] <ochosi> Unit193: yeah, i agree
[21:54] <ochosi> haha, the XUL crap. how i wouldn't mind to get rid of those two ;)
[21:54] <mmazing> what is gmb again? not having luck on google :\
[21:54] <ochosi> mmazing: shorthand for gmusicbrowser
[21:54] <knome> ochosi, and replaced with what? the big brother goo-gel stuff?
[21:54] <ochosi> knome: midori?
[21:55] <knome> midori's web browsing abilities are relatively bad.
[21:55] <Unit193> xombrero is even better.
[21:55] <knome> granted, i haven't followed its development very closely lately, but it's not really what people excpect from a browser
[21:55] <brainwash> replace it with firefox-gtk3 in the future
[21:56] <GridCube> vivaldi
[21:56] <GridCube> i mean we trowing names around
[21:56] <ochosi> yeah, let's not go into this further. my point is: i *am* open to changing our default app set and i've repeatedly said i don't mind replacing or dropping gmusicbrowser, so i'd really love it if we could take a step back and take a breath
[21:56] <mmazing> i, for one, don't like seeing stuff like rhythmbox/etc installed by default (and gmb isn't installed on my version of xubuntu 14.04, anyway), it seems like the sort of thing that people will decide which one they like and install it on their own
[21:57] <ochosi> mmazing: they do that with pretty much everything anyway
[21:57] <Unit193> brainwash: Had problems building. :D
[21:57] <mmazing> ochosi: agreed
[21:57] <Unit193> knome: And, version in Debian is so very old.
[21:57] <brainwash> Unit193: it will work at some point
[21:57] <Unit193> ochosi: Well yes and no.  If you want barebones, install that.
[21:58] <ochosi> mmazing: which is why i said that these discussions usually get blown out of proportion and overly emotional (for my taste)
[21:58] <knome> Unit193, at least we can affect that though..
[21:58] <mmazing> ochosi: also agreed :)
[21:59] <Unit193> ochosi: Right, but is the default is hardly usable but yet you still can't get rid of it? :P
[21:59] <ochosi> Unit193: again with the flaming?
[21:59] <Unit193> ochosi: Just trying to say, there's another side of it.
[22:00] <knome> yes, i would so much rather here what is *so much better* with the new app somebody is proposing than what is wrong with the current one
[22:00] <ochosi> s/here/hear/
[22:00] <GridCube> thats the other thing, the culture of "its just an apt-get away", i agree to that, but i think we need to teach people to use apt-get/usc, we should have a simple "welcome to xubuntu" thing that has a few pages teaching people how to get any software they want
[22:01] <Unit193> knome: Sure, but the one I have installed isn't an option as it isn't in the repos. :P
[22:01] <ochosi> then package it
[22:01] <elfy> not sayiing anything
[22:01] <ochosi> do something about it, other than whining
[22:02] <elfy> so
[22:02] <Unit193> ochosi: Already did.  You think I installed into /usr/local/? :D
[22:03] <ochosi> hehe, well who knows :)
[22:03] <knome> ochosi, thank you mr. grammar police
[22:03] <ochosi> knome: yw
[22:03] <Unit193> So, therefor I did do something about it.
[22:03] <ochosi> Unit193: well package it for others then
[22:03] <ochosi> if you think it's a viable candidate
[22:03] <knome> GridCube, we are welcoming contributions for documentation too
[22:03] <mrkramps> or at least tell us which one it is -.-
[22:04] <Unit193> ochosi: I did, it's in their daily ppa.  I don't think it's fit for Ubuntu repos because of bundled libs, and another xul.
[22:04] <ochosi> Unit193: and really, please stop this "gmb is not usable" nonsense. i'm trying to have a reasonable conversation with you here...
[22:04] <ochosi> oh no, not another xul
[22:04] <knome> ochosi, in your opinion
[22:04] <Unit193> ochosi: Ah, well that's what I've read from others.  I"ve not used it long enough to find out if it's "utterly unusable" as they say.
[22:05] <knome> ochosi, got to make that disclaimer so people won't think it's an official statement for the project.
[22:05] <Unit193> Eh, "not another xul" is somewhat valid.
[22:05]  * Unit193 sighs.
[22:05] <knome> Unit193, so you are passing on flaming comments from others without checking if they are at least somewhat true? nice :)
[22:06] <Unit193> knome: It's called paraphrasing...
[22:06] <knome> Unit193, or FUD.
[22:06] <Unit193> Perhaps, yes.  Either way.  Quotes likely would have helped you.
[22:07] <knome> but ultimately, i don't see how mocking GMB actually gets anything done.
[22:07] <elfy> might be useful if people wandered off and did something else here
[22:08] <ochosi> elfy: yeah, good idea :)
[22:08] <knome> or maybe the strategy is to mock it until the XPL bursts into tears, cracks, and promises to install every media player
[22:08]  * ochosi wanders off to do something else
[22:09] <knome> and it might be useful to actually finish off the discussions, instead of stopping them when everybody has a bad taste in their mouth and thus making all of the future discussions about the same topic reprises of the previous one
[22:10] <elfy> it's not a discussion, it's a bunch of bad mouthing at each other
[22:12] <knome> maybe it should be ended before it turns into that
[22:13] <elfy> I'm not going to get involved in media player discussions, my point was made a long time ago and hasn't changed, so you all carry on
[22:14] <Unit193> Nooope, as I've said, I'm done too now.
[22:16] <GridCube> knome: im not talking about documentation though, im talking about something more visible, for example a simple slideshow html5 file linked from the desktop that says "welcome to xubuntu"  and has like 10 pages just telling you how to get to documetation, how to install programs in a visual and simple way, some alternatives to
[22:16] <GridCube> media/ofimatic/webbrowsing/ims/graphics, and thats it, with links to install frm usc or not i dont know, i think that would take most of this "what default application" discussions out of order
[22:16] <knome> Unit193, i'm sorry if i offended by anything; that's obviously not the goal. furthermore, as i see it, there are many things we agree about even within this discussion, and i'm sorry for not always being able to see, or express that clearly enogh
[22:17] <knome> GridCube, that's part of the documentation
[22:17] <GridCube> ok
[22:17] <knome> GridCube, http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/managing-applications.html#ubuntu-software-center
[22:18] <knome> GridCube, i understand that's not exactly what you are describing, but is there something else than screenshots that could be improved there?
[22:18] <knome> GridCube, the whole chapter really (http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/managing-applications.html)
[22:18] <knome> GridCube, and of course, trying to make the documentation more visible...
[22:20] <elfy> GridCube: one of the *buntu derivatives do something similar I think,
[22:20] <elfy> or could be something else entirely, while since I've seen it, but shows when you boot first time
[22:20] <knome> one of the actionable items would be to add a shortcut to the documentation on the desktop
[22:20] <elfy> with a 'Don't show this again' checkbox
[22:21] <knome> elfy, why so shady about the derivative :P
[22:21] <elfy> because I'm really not sure which it was
[22:21] <knome> good rationale.
[22:21] <elfy> if I thought it was Mint I'd have said so :)
[22:21] <GridCube> knome: my opinion is, thats just a wall of text that 94.325% of the people will not bother to read. Im talking about something shiny, simple and squared, something a newbie can just waste 40 seconds on see all and learn the basics
[22:22] <GridCube> and then they can delete the file from their desktop
[22:22] <elfy> I assume you are meaning something *like* the install slideshow, that plays on first boot?
[22:23] <knome> GridCube, please, don't understand this as a snarky comment as it really isn't; it's the most serious tone i have: do you think that the whole documentation is more or less not useful, since it doesn't have a very simple approach to the topics?
[22:23] <GridCube> elfy: yes
[22:23] <knome> the other actionable item could be to add a slide about USC (back) to the installer slideshow then
[22:24] <GridCube> knome: no, i just understand how documentaion usually works in any project around the whole planet, not here, our documentation is excellent, users dont like to read them
[22:24] <elfy> knome: I think that GridCube is talking about more detail than the slideshow itself gives
[22:25] <knome> elfy, maybe, but he also wanted a shiny thing that's very short and easily accessible, which i think is equal to the slideshow
[22:25] <GridCube> im just talking about a guide that welcomes new users and gives fancy and graphical indications of how to do basics
[22:25] <knome> GridCube, so do i interpret you right that you'd want to see more screenshots on the documentation?
[22:25] <elfy> ^^
[22:26] <knome> GridCube, or is it something else than that
[22:26] <GridCube> knome: no, documentaion is documentation
[22:26] <GridCube> its not the same
[22:26] <knome> ok...
[22:26] <knome> so in addition to the documentation that goes through the basic stuff, we should have some other documentation that goes through basic stuff?
[22:26] <knome> i'm confused...
[22:26] <elfy> no
[22:26] <elfy> not docs
[22:27] <elfy> *like* slideshow sort of thing
[22:27] <GridCube> you can point to documentation from the slideshow
[22:27] <mrkramps> pictures/animation to explain the first steps right after first boot of installed system
[22:27] <elfy> but more about how to use USC
[22:27] <mrkramps> something like "take the tour"
[22:27] <knome> elfy, (still no snarky sound, still serious) but isn't it basically documentation if we tell the people the same things we tell them on the documentation?
[22:27] <knome> GridCube, we do
[22:27] <GridCube> "read more about media players here" [link to docs]
[22:27] <elfy> mrkramps: that's my understanding
[22:27] <knome> what would the tour consist of?
[22:28] <knome> could it be another chapter in the documentation that was more "graphical"/had more screenshots?
[22:28] <elfy> knome: yes ofc - but different people access information in different ways, I'm happy to read a 600 page book on ecology
[22:28] <knome> i'm failing to see why another piece of technical platform is needed here...
[22:28] <elfy> would hate to read a 600 page book on gmb ;)
[22:28] <knome> we can turn the documentation into marvelous things
[22:28] <mrkramps> knome, absolutely nobody who really should is reading a manual
[22:29] <knome> mrkramps, but that's hardly our fault... :)
[22:29] <elfy> knome: it's not so much technical - but a halfway, enough to get you going platform
[22:29] <elfy> GridCube: ^^ is that what you mean?
[22:29] <GridCube> yes
[22:29] <knome> i wasn't talking about the content though
[22:29] <elfy> I understand where you are then :)
[22:29] <knome> i was talking about the platform where it is build on
[22:29] <knome> i understand what GridCube is saying too
[22:30] <knome> but i don't understand why it couldn't be either 1) on the slideshow 2) on the documentation
[22:30] <elfy> then the platform is slideshowy
[22:30] <knome> -y?
[22:30] <GridCube> i understand knome point, we could have just one slideshow for each chapter of the documentation, that links to the full text
[22:30] <elfy> and then it's too long
[22:30] <knome> GridCube, i would guess that nobody would follow the slideshow if it was like that though
[22:31] <knome> GridCube, i wouldn't..
[22:31] <elfy> when people were installing from cd to hdd
[22:31] <knome> (i'll happily read a manual though)
[22:31] <GridCube> not many people would
[22:31] <elfy> now I'm lucky to see the slideshow for 5 minutes
[22:31] <GridCube> and im talking as a librarian
[22:32] <knome> GridCube, sure, i just wanted to point that out to say that even if i think (well-written) manuals are okay, i wouldn't enjoy a slideshow with an introduction of all the manual chapters
[22:32] <knome> i'd just rather want to dig deep in the manual right away
[22:32] <knome> brb
[22:32] <GridCube> yeah well was just a random though
[22:34] <GridCube> i think that 10 pages slideshow is enough, like "welcome|handling files|internet|messaging|music/video|offimatic|games|advanced stuff|read more in docs"
[22:34] <knome> GridCube, we have a lot more slides to cover in the slideshow too
[22:34] <mrkramps> GridCube, you forgot "installing software"
[22:34] <knome> GridCube, we've come to the conclusion that 7-8 is the right amount
[22:34] <elfy> knome: I really think the install slideshow is the wrong place
[22:34] <elfy> for what GridCube is talking about
[22:35] <knome> elfy, you are likely right, but then, we already do have a link to the documentation from the slideshow
[22:35] <knome> which is why i asked my original question:
[22:35] <elfy> yes
[22:35] <GridCube> mrkramps: no, in each of those you say "if you want more options to ... you can get them in the usc"
[22:35] <knome> how can we improve the docs so that it's more accessible for a new user
[22:35] <knome> or what kind of tour could the documentation have
[22:35] <elfy> that just goes back to the some like docs, some don't :D
[22:36] <elfy> ha ha
[22:36] <knome> elfy, but if you don't like docs, and don't read them, you also can't whine that we didn't tell you how to install your $favorite_music_player
[22:36] <knome> :)
[22:36] <elfy> right, so docs tour - great, expand in the slide about the thing your linking to in a bit more detail
[22:36] <GridCube> knome: the slideshow just happens on installing
[22:36] <GridCube> the current one
[22:37] <elfy> it doesn't have to be Xpx by Xpx
[22:37] <GridCube> and only if you reach the installing point
[22:37] <mrkramps> maybe just upload a tour at YT?
[22:37] <GridCube> you cant just launch the slideshow to see it
[22:37] <elfy> make it larger, expand the detail - link to docs
[22:37] <knome> elfy, sounds like a good idea to me
[22:38] <GridCube> again i think somthing like an html5 page, not even a proper program
[22:38] <elfy> half way house between the basics and the docs
[22:38] <knome> elfy, and the tour in the docs is always accessible after installation too (GridCube ^)
[22:38] <knome> GridCube, like our docs :)
[22:38] <GridCube> should do it, and most anyone could maintain it
[22:38] <GridCube> knome: is it?
[22:38] <knome> GridCube, well it's written in docbook, but it's shipped as html
[22:39] <knome> but we're maintaining that already, so adding more to it isn't a problem
[22:39] <elfy> GridCube: and do you have the knowledge to do some of this?
[22:39] <knome> setting up another platform, for one, would mean more maintaining burden
[22:39] <knome> which is why i'm against that
[22:39] <elfy> because if so I could try and help too
[22:40] <GridCube> im am not a webdeveloper but i checked online and theres plenty of opensource slideshows available on github and what not that could be used
[22:40] <elfy> knome: but once set up? a change in UCS in docs - how to make sure change to *new thing* happens
[22:40] <GridCube> i dont think it would be so hard to start from there and create our own
[22:40] <knome> elfy, the same as everything in the docs - we make sure it's up-to-date
[22:40] <GridCube> i could try it
[22:40] <elfy> GridCube: neither am I - but trying has to be worth it - and I could try with you
[22:41] <knome> GridCube, the question is not only to set up the "slideshow", it's about setting the packaging and a lot more to be installed with xubuntu
[22:41] <GridCube> yes
[22:41] <elfy> knome: ack, so just about management
[22:41] <GridCube> i understand
[22:42] <knome> elfy, yes, contrary to another platform, which would also need a setup (and duplicated the package/upload -like management)
[22:42] <elfy> right
[22:43] <GridCube> so it makes no sense to try to do something because we wont have any help to get it done, got it
[22:43] <knome> GridCube, you're understanding it wrong, really.
[22:43] <knome> i'm strong +1 for adding new content and making it look different
[22:44] <knome> but i'm strong -1 for adding complexity via additional platforms
[22:44] <elfy> GridCube: I'm sure that we'd get help when we've got a working model, why not work on that first
[22:44] <GridCube> well i dont understand your plataform so i cant help
[22:44] <GridCube> elfy: sure
[22:44] <knome> GridCube, we can help you convert your content into docbook
[22:45] <elfy> knome: is docbook how slideshow is written?
[22:45] <knome> elfy, no, the slideshow again is pure html
[22:45] <GridCube> i dont understand then
[22:45] <knome> GridCube, what don't you understand?
[22:46] <GridCube> how do you get a slideshow if thats not how you do an slideshow
[22:46] <elfy> knome: GridCube is envisaging a slideshow for this stuff - eg html
[22:46] <elfy> I think
[22:46] <knome> i don't understand why it needs to be a slideshow
[22:46] <GridCube> im not talking about adding screenshots to documentation
[22:47] <knome> but fair enough, let's discuss that direction
[22:47] <GridCube> because its visual, its fast and its simple
[22:47] <elfy> GridCube: neither am I at this point
[22:47] <knome> if it can't be inside the documentation, then you'll need another package
[22:47] <GridCube> yes, thats the point
[22:47] <elfy> so we'll need another package
[22:47] <knome> and somebody to set that up
[22:48] <mrkramps> and i have to purge it
[22:48] <GridCube> and no one will
[22:48] <elfy> or help others learn how to
[22:48] <knome> as well as all the things related to that (which i don't understand)
[22:48] <GridCube> ?
[22:48] <elfy> GridCube: how about we focus on what we CAN do now, and worry about tomorrow then
[22:48] <elfy> I couldn't wire a jumbo jet up till I learnt how
[22:49] <elfy> my plan is to make Unit193 go grey before me :p
[22:49] <GridCube> its just really tiring elfy
[22:49] <knome> another thing that somewhat worries me is that you want another way to tell people how to install packages while the documentation already does that
[22:50] <GridCube> and?
[22:50] <Unit193> elfy: Already had some random whites.
[22:50] <GridCube> redundancy is good in this case
[22:50] <elfy> GridCube: yea I know what you mean, but if people like you and I don't do the things that we think others might like, who else will
[22:51] <knome> GridCube, redundancy means more things to maintain, eg. more time to be used to maintain the stuff, not create new
[22:51] <elfy> unless it's adding something
[22:51] <GridCube> yes
[22:52] <knome> sure.
[22:52] <elfy> that is for people who don't want to read loads of things if the basics are graspable with a shove in the right direction
[22:52] <GridCube> i have to repeat then: so it makes no sense to try to do something because we wont have any help to get it done, got it
[22:52] <elfy> at that point it IS worth it
[22:52] <knome> elfy, which is why i'm asking - could a more graphical chapter in the documentation do the same thing?
[22:52] <GridCube> no
[22:52] <GridCube> because people dont go to docuemtation in the first place
[22:52] <elfy> I don't think it's even close knome
[22:53] <elfy> GridCube: and that's not why I think that
[22:53] <knome> GridCube, then let me ask my second question again... how do we make people go to the documentation?
[22:53] <elfy> they are 2 different ways of promulgating the information imo
[22:54] <GridCube> knome: we change the reality of the world,or we add a slideshow that points people to it
[22:55] <GridCube> the information we would want in the slideshow is already on the documentation, we would just make it visible and spark the suer interest on it, so they can go and keep reading if they feel the need
[22:56] <elfy> GridCube: that ^^
[22:57] <elfy> perhaps the way to approach this is for GridCube and me to go and make a working *slideshow* then go from there
[22:57] <elfy> we have 2 cycles
[22:59] <knome> what's the plan B if it's not possible to include it in the next LTS because of some limitation, be it lack of time or technical problems?
[23:00] <GridCube> if its an html slideshow it could go on the website and have a link from whiskers to it?
[23:00] <knome> and before you go too deep in anything, have a quick chat with slickymaster and the technical people on the channel to discuss what they think of this, how they would like it to be executed, and if it's technically doable within some timeframe
[23:00] <elfy> Plan B would be to make sure that -team thinks it is a good long term thing for Xubuntu to have and it comes when it comes
[23:01] <knome> then let's make sure that is involved with plan A....
[23:01] <knome> but i was talking about a technical plan B :)
[23:02] <knome> GridCube, potentially, though it would likely need some changes on the website code
[23:02] <elfy> knome: who knows, at the moment it's an idea, a useful one imo and I'm happy to put time to it
[23:03] <knome> as i said, you should talk with david
[23:03] <elfy> yep
[23:03] <elfy> I can
[23:04] <knome> another thing to consider is how it would overlap with the slideshow, and the tour on the website
[23:04] <knome> (which is currently another kind of tour....)
[23:05] <GridCube> i think it being hosted on the website should be a secondary option, i would like for people to have it witouth internet access
[23:05] <GridCube> like docs
[23:08] <elfy> then it has to be on the install
[23:08] <elfy> GridCube: I really think that the best way forward is for us to get a working idea together
[23:08] <elfy> then we can put it to -team as a proposal
[23:09] <elfy> then we find what needs to be done and dealt with
[23:09] <elfy> otherwise we get into a protracted session of working out when and where we do things, without actually doing anything
[23:10] <elfy> until other people have something in front of them it is just words and ideas :)
[23:10] <GridCube> right
[23:10] <GridCube> agreed
[23:11] <elfy> GridCube: ok - cool
[23:12] <elfy> please remember though that release is in 2 weeks or so, and I'm going to be all :( for a bit
[23:12] <knome> elfy, just ":(" ?
[23:12] <elfy> was being positive :)
[23:12] <knome> :)
[23:13] <elfy> GridCube: how about you think about the order of what we look at, and how we can communicate together on it - maybe trello or ...
[23:13] <knome> elfy, a leading question!! :P
[23:14] <elfy> heh
[23:14] <GridCube> i never understood how trello works
[23:14] <GridCube> but im willing to try it again
[23:14] <elfy> it's just a whiteboard you can scribble on, move things about
[23:15] <elfy> it's as complicated as you make it
[23:15] <elfy> GridCube: we can do the communicating anyway you want, makes no difference to me
[23:15] <elfy> just not IRC - timezones ...
[23:16] <GridCube> mails sound razonable to me
[23:16] <elfy> GridCube: it's YOUR project, I'm just giving you my time and thoughts ;)
[23:16] <elfy> ok - wfm
[23:16] <GridCube> :)
[23:17] <elfy> one thing though
[23:17] <GridCube> perfect
[23:17] <GridCube> say
[23:17] <elfy> can we work out first how many *pages* give them names
[23:17] <elfy> then only talk about *foo* on the foo mail - I thread them here
[23:18] <GridCube> mmhm, or maybe one of those ubuntu pads we can edit each other so if someone else wants to join or see they have it available
[23:19] <elfy> possible
[23:19] <GridCube> i can create one of those right now
[23:19] <elfy> but again we need to have pad per *page*
[23:19] <GridCube> maybe a main one and then them separated
[23:20] <knome> or one pad with separators
[23:20] <elfy> there can be a general one to index others and to get the general direction sorted
[23:20] <knome> (just an idea, it would be much more accessible, considering the pages are short)
[23:20] <GridCube> mmhm i like knome's idea
[23:20] <knome> also easier to follow the big picture
[23:21] <GridCube> we start with one and see if we need more as time comes
[23:21] <elfy> ok - well never done that nor set it up
[23:27] <GridCube> http://pad.ubuntu.com/1Ki6doF41F
[23:28] <knome> btw, for the future,
[23:28] <knome> you can have a named pad
[23:28] <knome> just go to http://pad.ubuntu.com/any-name and it'll ask to create any-name for you
[23:28] <GridCube> ah
[23:28] <GridCube> welp, too late now
[23:29] <knome> well you can just create a new one
[23:29] <knome> and dismiss that :P
[23:29] <knome> if you want, that is
[23:29] <elfy> GridCube: copy paste for the win :)
[23:30] <elfy> knome: what do you mean by pad seperators?
[23:31] <elfy> GridCube: slow down a moment
[23:31] <knome> elfy, add a few blank lines, then drop a line of --------------------------'s
[23:31] <knome> elfy, you can even make that bold and uncolor it so it pops out more
[23:32] <knome> or make them –––––'s and bold
[23:32] <knome> so they'll look like a unified line..
[23:32] <elfy> GridCube: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-install-slides
[23:32] <elfy> knome: oh right
[23:32] <elfy> I thought there was a way to have multiple pads linked ...
[23:32] <knome> oh, nope
[23:33] <knome> at least not how we're doing it
[23:33] <knome> but that's another topic...
[23:33] <elfy> :)
[23:34] <elfy> GridCube: I would make that page a general discussion, you can go to http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-install-slides_1
[23:35] <elfy> and make that just discussion on slide 1
[23:35] <elfy> it will get very confusing otherwise
[23:35] <GridCube> sure i just wanted to have an overview in the first place
[23:36] <elfy> yep


[04:33] <RustyShackleford> I'm setting up this computer as a headless file/media server
[04:33] <RustyShackleford> recently got a macbook, and I'm wondering if there's different/better options than samba
[05:33] <JanC> RustyShackleford: I assume MacOS also supports NFS, and then there are also media-specific servers
[06:23] <jianmin> does anyone know if the openstack spell for conjure-up on ubuntu 16.04 works?
[06:24] <jianmin> i get ceph-osd/2: hook failed: "mon-relation-changed" for ceph-mon:osd
[06:24] <jianmin> or other similar mon failures
[06:24] <jianmin> and the one time it got past mon, it failed on mysql with a config error
[06:52] <jianmin> i kind of thing it's just a race condition of sorts, but blindly deploying everything in varying orders has only made it fail at different parts
[07:04] <jianmin> bootstrapping juju containers without conjure-up works just fine
[07:08] <jianmin> now running a headless install:
[07:08] <jianmin> mysql/0: hook failed: "shared-db-relation-changed" for keystone:shared-db
[08:42] <topi`_> hi folks, anyone run into a following problem with Trusty: apt-get install refuses to install the python3-software-properties pkg because of missing dependency python3 (>= 3.4~)
[08:43] <topi`_> if I manually calculate that dependency, using "dpkg --compare-versions 3.4.0-2ubuntu1 ge 3.4~" I get a positive result
[08:43] <topi`_> so I believe there must be some kind of bug in Trusty's version of apt-get
[08:48] <cpaelzer> topi`_: any ppas enabled ?
[08:48] <cpaelzer> topi`_: I just installed  python3-software-properties in a container and it worked
[08:57] <ikonia> topi`_: yeah, you where told about this in #ubuntu
[08:57] <ikonia> joining another channel and asking again won't change the reality
[09:01] <lordievader> Good morning.
[10:11] <stokachu> jianmin: the order shouldnt matter
[10:11] <stokachu> jianmin: what versions of conjure-up and juju are you running
[12:53] <coreycb> ddellav, which packages can I help with for liberty? bug 1619452
[12:54] <ddellav> coreycb sahara and aodh were the weird ones i didn't know what to do with
[12:54] <coreycb> ddellav, ok I'll take a look at those
[12:54] <ddellav> sahara has a weird issue with one of it's deps, it's asking for openstack-pkg-tools version ~37 but that version isn't available as far as i can tell in liberty
[12:55] <ddellav> aodh has the new point release tag already in the repo, but it's not merged into any branch as far as i can tell so i didn't move forward
[12:59] <ddellav> coreycb these have their mitaka branches ready for review: lp:~ddellav/ubuntu/+source/neutron-fwaas lp:~ddellav/ubuntu/+source/neutron-lbaas lp:~ddellav/ubuntu/+source/neutron-vpnaas
[12:59] <ddellav> as soon as neutron decides to finish it's git push that will be ready too
[13:01] <coreycb> ddellav, taking a look.  aodh and cinder are uploaded and in the sru review queue for mitaka.
[13:16] <coreycb> ddellav, neutron-*aas and keytone uploaded for mitaka
[13:18] <coreycb> keystone that is
[14:21] <ddellav> coreycb lp:~ddellav/ubuntu/+source/neutron
[14:27] <coreycb> ddellav, neutron uploaded
[14:32] <ddellav> coreycb lp:~ddellav/ubuntu/+source/ironic
[14:33] <ddellav> coreycb looks like you already pushed my heat changes
[14:33] <coreycb> ddellav, yep
[14:33] <coreycb> heat's pushed
[14:33] <coreycb> and uploaded
[14:35] <coreycb> ddellav, ironic uploaded
[14:36] <ddellav> coreycb ok that covers the mitaka ones besides sahara which is weird. I'm unable to find a repository with the proper version. There doesn't seem to be a unified repo anywhere.
[14:38] <coreycb> ddellav, I'll look at sahara.  we sync that from debian since mitaka.
[14:38] <coreycb> ddellav, aodh and sahara uploaded to liberty UCA
[14:39] <coreycb> staging ppa, that is
[14:39] <ddellav> coreycb ok, I'm rebasing the other liberty releases now
[15:20] <coreycb> ddellav, sahara uploaded for mitaka
[15:20] <ddellav> coreycb thanks
[15:23] <jgrimm> smoser, https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-utils/+bug/1493188
[15:23] <jgrimm> smoser, ^^ is there a cloud-utils fix needed too?
[15:24] <smoser> jgrimm, mount-image-callback's --overlay will be broken
[15:26] <crazyadm> i just installed ubuntu-server
[15:26] <jgrimm> smoser,  ok, is that ready to go soon?
[15:27] <smoser> i can look at it.
[15:54] <jianmin> conjure-up 2.0.1~beta1
[15:55] <jianmin> 2.0-rc1-xenial-amd64
[15:55] <jianmin> stokachu: ^
[15:55] <jianmin> via the instructions here http://conjure-up.io/
[15:56] <jianmin> and here http://conjure-up.io/docs/en/users/#getting-started
[15:59] <jianmin> i've seen some stuff for manually building it all with juju commands. i might just try that and see if i can get it to work. i don't really think i need everything that the openstack spell is building just for a single box deployment
[16:02] <jianmin> i'm running in 16.04 with 116GB GB SSD space, 1TB HDD, 64GB ram. it's a vm running on a debian host via kvm. nested virtualization is working elsewhere
[16:02] <jianmin> in fact, juju bootstrapping a vanilla container works with no problems
[16:08] <dakj> hello, is there anyone can help me to resolve a problem with MaaS and a Host VMware ESXi? thanks in advance.
[16:33]  * powersj removed the daily bug triage topic from server meeting agenda and irccommands pages
[17:36] <ill_logic> Hello, I was wondering if people here had an idea about Amazon ami release schedules?
[17:36] <ill_logic> 14.04 hasn't had a new ami since the latest big openssl stuff.
[17:36] <ill_logic> I'm just curious if that's something we should expect in the next day or so, or whether we should work around it
[17:38] <nacc> Odd_Bloke: --^ would you know (or know who to ask?)
[17:39] <Odd_Bloke> nacc: ill_logic: Let me have a look.
[17:39] <nacc> Odd_Bloke: thanks!
[17:40] <ill_logic> Odd_Bloke: Thank you!
[17:41] <Odd_Bloke> ill_logic: The latest AMI I'm seeing is from the 19th of this month; is that the one you're seeing?
[17:43] <ill_logic> Odd_Bloke: Yes. The big openssl update came on the 22nd, followed by a small followup on the 23rd.
[17:44] <ill_logic> http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3087-1/ http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3087-2/
[17:44] <ill_logic> changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/o/openssl/openssl_1.0.1f-1ubuntu2.21/changelog
[17:44] <ill_logic> http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/o/openssl/openssl_1.0.1f-1ubuntu2.21/changelog
[17:44] <ill_logic> You can see the dates there.
[17:47] <Odd_Bloke> ill_logic: We generally only do a special release for openssl stuff when asked to by the security team; they didn't judge this a big enough issue to warrant that.
[17:48] <ill_logic> Okay. So amis are not generated regularly then?
[17:48] <ill_logic> For 14.04?
[17:48] <Odd_Bloke> ill_logic: So we generate dailies for all changes in the image.
[17:49] <Odd_Bloke> ill_logic: But we only promote these to release when either (a) the first boot experience will be affected, or (b) the Ubuntu security team tell us that something is important enough that we want it addressed even before people apply security updates.
[17:49] <Odd_Bloke> ill_logic: (a) is almost always a new kernel; there are new kernels SRU'd every three weeks.
[17:50] <ill_logic> So there are ami dailies, but you don't "release" them? Does that mean they haven't been through some sort of vetting process?
[17:51] <ill_logic> i.e. do you recommend against using them?
[17:51] <ill_logic> Or are they not actually available to the public via aws?
[17:51] <Odd_Bloke> ill_logic: Correct; only releases have been tested.
[17:51] <Odd_Bloke> But the dailies are public.
[17:52] <ill_logic> Okay. So we can get them if we want, but it's caveat emptor.
[17:52] <ill_logic> So it's not on that page.
[17:52] <ill_logic> Okay, thanks a lot! I think I get the picture.
[20:25] <coreycb> ddellav, trove uploaded for mitaka
[20:45] <PCdude> I am trying to use postfix to send email with Amazon AWS SES
[20:45] <PCdude> I can connect to the port 465
[20:46] <PCdude> but the messsage gets to a state of deferred and does not send the e-mail
[20:46] <PCdude> How can I troubleshoot this?
[20:47] <tsimonq2> PCdude: try asking in #ubuntu if you don't get a response within a reasonable time :)
[20:47] <PCdude> tsimonq2: will do, I thought with the type of problem its more suited here
[20:48] <tsimonq2> PCdude: while that's generally a good idea, we have more people in #ubuntu :)
[20:49] <PCdude> tsimonq2: are there right now :)
[20:49] <PCdude> tsimonq2: let me ask u a weird question, I am searching for some cheap rack cases. Besides the normal ebay and such what are some good sites that sell them?
[20:50] <tsimonq2> I have no clue
[20:51] <PCdude> np, I will keep on searching
[20:51] <PCdude> #join #ubuntu-offtopic
[20:51] <PCdude> sorry...
[20:52] <tsimonq2> it's ok PCdude :)
[20:53] <PCdude> tsimonq2: u here often?
[20:54] <tsimonq2> I hang out here, yeah :)
[21:26] <blizzow> I have installed a couple 16.04 servers with LVM on top of an mdadm raid device.  Some of my installations keep giving me this "lvmetad is not active yet, using direct activation during sysinit" and end at (initramfs) unable to find my volume group where my root logical volume lives.
[21:26] <blizzow> Anyone know how I can repair this?
[22:33] <Phanes> has anyone gotten puppet master succesfully set up with puppetdb yet?
[22:33] <Phanes> for xenial server?


[01:51] <Delemas> I submitted a bugfix package in a PPA as a fix for a bug 594827. How does it end up in Universe? Should I change status to Fix Committed?
[01:51] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 594827 in freeipmi (Debian) (and 1 other project) "broken bmc-watchdog init script/logrotate config (affects: 2) (heat: 28)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/594827
[01:59]  * Delemas finds the HowToFix wiki entry and gives it a whirl...
[02:01] <yofel> Delemas: does this still happen with 0.7.17~beta2-1 in maverick and natty? if not the bug should be fix released - and your bugfix only applied to lucid as an SRU
[02:03] <Delemas> Yes the bugs still happen in all the recent builds right up and including 0.8.12 which is the latest Debian devel (or whatever it is called...)
[02:04] <yofel> then you should include a debdiff against the natty package, subscribe ubuntu-sponsors so it gets uploaded - once it's fixed you can prepare SRUs for maverick and lucid. Best ask for help in #ubuntu-motu
[02:04] <Delemas> The patches are quilted so they could be applied to 0.7.17~beta2-1 and it could use a similar upstart script...
[04:08] <RedSingularity> micahg: confirmed a bug in thunderbird.  If you could take a look that would be great!  I did search for dupes but you always seem to find the ones I miss. :)
[04:08] <RedSingularity> bug 699922
[04:08] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 699922 in thunderbird (Ubuntu) "Thunderbird displays notification on wrong monitor (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/699922
[04:10] <micahg> RedSingularity: sounds like a dupe
[04:10] <RedSingularity> micahg: lol see what i mean?  Have any idea of what bug?
[04:10] <micahg> RedSingularity: nope, taking a look, I just know it's an old issue
[04:11] <RedSingularity> micahg: i did see one about windows...it is a few years old though
[04:11] <ddecator> over 6 years old
[04:43] <micahg> RedSingularity: sorry, I don't have time to dig further, but the issue sounds familiar, feel free to upstream
[04:44] <RedSingularity> micahg: Alright.  Thanks much for looking buddy :)
[05:45] <RedSingularity> jibel_: Why does the update-manager bring up the gnome-power-manager?
[09:12] <om26er> vish, are bugs in classic desktop session considered papercuts?
[09:14] <om26er> bug 506404
[09:14] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 506404 in gnome-panel (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "System menu in top panel also shows logout/shutdown when using indicator-applet-complete (affects: 10) (dups: 5) (heat: 66)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506404
[09:14] <seb128> om26er, hi
[09:14] <seb128> om26er, that one will be fixed before release, no need to papercut it
[09:15] <om26er> seb128, totally awesome, have been waiting for this for a while ;)
[09:16]  * om26er just realized 60% of the comments are his own :p
[09:18] <seb128> om26er, btw do you triage telepathy-logger sometimes? there are 2 recent crashers that needs to be forwarded to the upstream tracker
[09:19] <om26er> seb128, have not seen them in email might be private? checking and will send upstream
[09:21] <seb128> om26er, you are not suscribed to this source it seems
[09:21] <seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/telepathy-logger/+bug/725015
[09:21] <ubot4> seb128: Error: Bug #725015 is private.
[09:21] <seb128> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/telepathy-logger/+bug/725512
[09:21] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 725512 in telepathy-logger (Ubuntu) "telepathy-logger crashed with SIGSEGV in free() (affects: 16) (dups: 11) (heat: 120)" [Medium,Confirmed]
[09:21] <om26er> telepathy team is not subscribed?
[09:21] <seb128> seems now
[09:21] <seb128> not
[09:22] <seb128> oh it is, sorry
[09:22] <seb128> well the second one is public and got duplicates
[09:22] <om26er> the latest version is 0.2.3 we have 0.2.1 btw
[09:24] <seb128> om26er, weird
[09:24] <seb128> om26er, http://git.collabora.co.uk/?p=telepathy-logger.git;a=summary has 0.2.1
[09:24] <om26er> http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/releases/telepathy-logger/
[09:24] <seb128> do you know where they worked on 0.2.3?
[09:24] <om26er> they moved to freedesktop remember
[09:24] <seb128> if I want to see the commits it that version?
[09:24] <om26er> oops
[09:24] <seb128> oh right
[09:25] <seb128> it's written at the top of the page
[09:25] <vish> om26er: hey..
[09:25] <vish> om26er: which bug?
[09:26] <seb128> om26er, ok, we should perhaps update, not sure if it's still worth upstreaming those 2 bugs
[09:26] <om26er> vish,  Hi! bug 506404 which seb just said would be fixed before release
[09:26] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 506404 in gnome-panel (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "System menu in top panel also shows logout/shutdown when using indicator-applet-complete (affects: 10) (dups: 5) (heat: 66)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506404
[09:27] <vish> om26er: oh! cool :)
[09:27] <om26er> seb128, the first is upstreamed already, sending the second lets see what they say on this
[09:28] <seb128> om26er, thanks
[12:59] <om26er_> seb128, upstream says updating  to tp-logger 0.2.3  should fix the issues
[13:13] <seb128> om26er_, ok great, I uploaded that earlier
[15:36] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek day 2 starting in 25 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom
[16:04] <Jthorn> having a problem reinstalling from a live cd after formatting hard drive...the installation and demo won't load up just keep getting a failed: getpwuid(0
[16:04] <Jthorn> user id not found
[17:28] <penalvch> Please mark Medium Importance for LibreOffice bug 626755
[17:28] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 626755 in openoffice.org (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "soffice.bin crashed with SIGSEGV in SwXTextRange::~SwXTextRange() (affects: 2) (dups: 1) (heat: 20)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/626755
[17:34] <kamusin> penalvch, ;)
[17:35] <penalvch> kamusin: Thank you.
[18:17] <acarpine> I think the importance field of the bug 362875 should be set to Medium (the wireless card doesn't work)
[18:17] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 362875 in linux (Ubuntu) "rt2x00usb_vendor_request: Error - Vendor Request 0x07 failed for offset 0x308c with error -71. (affects: 16) (heat: 86)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362875
[18:17] <acarpine> tks
[19:26] <psusi> bug #161126 appears to have been rejected by Debian.  Shouldn't the status in Ubuntu also then be set to WontFix?
[19:26] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 161126 in ddrescue (Debian) (and 2 other projects) "Package name misleading (affects: 5) (heat: 5)" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/161126
[19:28] <micahg> psusi: yes, especially with the restructuring of those packages happening in Debian
[19:52] <psusi> micahg: what restructuring?
[19:53] <psusi> it looks to me like they just decided to keep both... one just got updated to a new upstream the other day in unstable
[19:55] <micahg> psusi: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/02/msg00594.html
[19:58] <psusi> pfft... why the heck did he close the bug report requesting that then?
[19:58] <psusi> seems like he rejected the suggestion to do that there, and now on the ml is saying he is going to do it
[19:58] <ddecator> micahg: do you still prefer to add lp bugs to bugzilla yourself, or do you prefer we use lp to link them?
[20:02] <micahg> ddecator: using LP is fine
[20:03] <ddecator> micahg: alright, just wanted to check. i'm helping RedSingularity file that thunderbird bug upstream
[20:03] <micahg> ddecator: you should be able to link when filing as well (See Also link)
[20:04] <ddecator> micahg: oh, didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out. RedSingularity ^
[20:05] <RedSingularity> micahg: in the "URL" box when filing?
[20:06] <RedSingularity> micahg: "URL that demonstrates the problem you are seeing (optional)."
[20:06] <ddecator> i think that's for a website that causes the issue in question
[20:07] <RedSingularity> ah
[20:07] <RedSingularity> still looking....
[20:08] <RedSingularity> ddecator: well it says under that "IMPORTANT: if the problem is with a broken web page, you need to report it a different way. "
[20:08] <ddecator> right, if the website is broken. the URL is for a website that should work but doesn't because of a bug in firefox
[20:08] <ddecator> micahg: is the link added after the report is filed? i know there is the "See Also" part on the completed report
[20:09] <micahg> ddecator: it should be on the advanced details for filing
[20:12] <ddecator> micahg: i don't see it anywhere on the page for filing a new bug
[20:13] <RedSingularity> ddecator: me neither...Additional info maybe??
[20:13] <ddecator> RedSingularity: there is a separate field for "See Also" where the lp link should be on the completed report
[20:15] <RedSingularity> ddecator: just did a text string search for "see also" with no results.  Does it come up after hitting "submit bug" at the bottom?
[20:16] <ddecator> RedSingularity: i'm not sure, that's why i asked micah. i know the field is on the completed report, but i thought you needed special privelages in order to add the link there, at least after the bug has been filed
[20:16] <RedSingularity> ah
[20:17] <micahg> ddecator: could need special privs, idk
[20:17] <ddecator> micahg: i think it is :)
[20:17] <RedSingularity> ddecator: just submit then?
[20:18] <ddecator> micahg: do you want to add it for us or should RedSingularity just put a link in the description?
[20:19] <RedSingularity> ddecator: i "could" put it in the additional information area as well
[20:20] <ddecator> RedSingularity: i'm just not sure if the mozilla devs have some sort of preference
[20:21] <RedSingularity> true
[20:23] <micahg> RedSingularity: it'll be added to see also when you link on LP
[20:25] <ddecator> ah, i didn't know linking it would add it automatically
[20:33] <RedSingularity> micahg: bug 699922 is ready for the stamp.  I think "low" would be more than appropriate :)
[20:33] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 699922 in thunderbird (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Thunderbird displays notification on wrong monitor (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/699922
[20:41] <hjd> Is it ok to add links to CVE reports on CVE-bugs where it's not present yet (like bug 714846), or are there certain requirements before it should be added? I've tried checking how to triage security bugs on the wiki, but I was unable to find anything.
[20:41] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 714846 in linux (Ubuntu Karmic) (and 6 other projects) "CVE-2010-4242 (affects: 1) (heat: 396)" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/714846
[20:44] <micahg> hjd: if it's appropriate, it should be fine
[20:45] <micahg> hjd: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/BugTriage
[20:49] <hjd> micahg: ok. I read that page already, and the only thing I found was that confirmed bugs should usually be linked to a CVE-report.
[20:49] <micahg> hjd: so, to answer your question, you can add them if they actually apply to the bug reporrt
[20:52] <hjd> ok
[21:22] <psusi> bug #118467 has been  marked as incomplete for nearly two years, but not expired due to it being filed upstream.  comments in lp, and upstream, and redhat's bug tracker on the issue ( which has been closed ) indicate inability to reproduce, and the bug was originally reported in a release that has reached eol.  Is there a way to manually change the status to expired?
[21:22] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 118467 in gnome-applets (Fedora) (and 3 other projects) "Feisty Gnome Umount Utility displays empty Info Boxes on Failure (dups: 1) (heat: 5)" [Unknown,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118467
[21:24] <yofel> psusi: by email interface and launchpad API - I have a script if you want it
[21:27] <yofel> psusi: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~yofel/+junk/lp-scripts/view/head:/lp-set-expired.py
[21:28] <charlie-tca> why not set it invalid, if it can be reproduced in two years?
[21:29] <charlie-tca> Or since it is valid upstream, confirm it based on that
[21:39] <psusi> charlie-tca: because it has been set to expired, and so the next state is supposed to be expired?
[21:39] <charlie-tca> nope
[21:40] <charlie-tca> by that reasoning, almost every bug marked incomplete should then expire next,
[21:40] <psusi> yes, that is the rule
[21:40] <charlie-tca> Instead, they could be marked "confirmed", "triaged", "expired", or even back to "new"
[21:41] <psusi> well yea, but barring any other action, it goes to expired after a while
[21:41] <charlie-tca> They do not have to expire. It depends on the actual responses and further action taken
[21:41] <charlie-tca> If you expire every incomplete bug, why bother asking for anything else, just expire them instead
[21:41] <psusi> because you ask for something, AND mark it as incomplete, then give time to get a response and complete it
[21:42] <charlie-tca> There really is not a rule that says a bug went incomplete, it must then expire
[21:42] <psusi> normally lp automatically transitions it to expired after a while, but in this case, that was blocked by the upstream link
[21:42] <charlie-tca> and what happened upstream? is it dead?
[21:43] <charlie-tca> Did upstream declare the bug invalid?
[21:43] <psusi> no, it's just sat there for 2 years after someone said they could not reproduce it
[21:43] <charlie-tca> Um, please do not expire any bugs I triage.
[21:44] <psusi> if it's triaged, then it isn't incomplete
[21:44] <charlie-tca> If I worked the bugs, leave them alone. They are mine to triage properly
[22:11] <hggdh> psusi: no, there is no way to set a status of expired. The most you can do is set it as invalid (and add a blurb explaining why)
[22:19] <em> do any of you know why ubuntu would put untrusted packages in the Repo?
[22:20] <paultag> em: they won't -- which package is untrusted?
[22:21] <paultag> I'll be happy to check it out
[22:24]  * paultag pokes em
[22:27] <micahg> I got that warning a couple days ago
[22:28] <ddecator> warning?
[22:30] <micahg> about untrusted packages
[23:30] <udienz> micahg, about gkamus, rpath has been fixed and re-uploaded again in revu
[23:31] <udienz> arrhh.. wrong place