[00:01] <LaserJock> man, java wouldn't be so annoying if there weren't so many stinkin' acronyms
[00:01] <imbrandon> err looks to be done now, only ntp.conf change and restart the service right ?
[00:01] <LaserJock> JRE, JVM, JDK, JSE
[00:01] <imbrandon> strange how it wont let me manualy set it though
[00:03] <pwnguin> yea, they should use goofy names instead
[00:03] <joumetal> anyone intrested reviewing libqalculate. it's in revu
[00:03] <pwnguin> stdlib, stdio, boost, hibernate
[00:03] <LaserJock> well, I don't minde the names
[00:03] <pwnguin> actually, i think hibernate is a java thing
[00:03] <pwnguin> Spring
[00:03] <LaserJock> it's just that you never know what you're actually supposed to get
[00:04] <pwnguin> pop quiz: what does turbogears do?
[00:04] <somerville32> Makes your gears go faster! :)
[00:04] <Kmos> lol
[00:05] <imbrandon> pwnguin, the python stuff?
[00:05] <pwnguin> imbrandon: right
[00:05] <imbrandon> its a framework for python we apps then in that case
[00:05] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: ntpdate won't run when ntpd is.
[00:05] <joumetal> It provides command line qalculator and is dependency of scientific calculator qalculate.
[00:05] <imbrandon> web*
[00:05] <mok0> knights: Oh, I just uploaded the torque package to revu. The one with the weird license
[00:05] <pwnguin> its a web scripting framework.
[00:06] <ajmitch> pwnguin: why?
[00:11] <knights> OK guys, I'm ready! Its took me all weekend, and thanks to the patience of persia and friends I can now upload my Ubuntu xdtv package which IMO is THE missing multimedia package from Debian and Ubuntu as of this moment because its the only fully-featured, stable app for analogue video capture capable of DVD+ quality capture under Linux. Could someone kindly to re-sync the REVU uploaders keyring please?
[00:11]  * ScottK2 looks over at imbrandon ^^^
[00:11]  * imbrandon looks up
[00:12] <knights> Itza belter!
[00:12] <imbrandon> knights, sure give me a sec
[00:12]  * Fujitsu wonders who uses analogue video these days.
[00:13] <imbrandon> knights, syncing now, i'lll announce when it completes
[00:13] <knights> He, it does DVB capture very well too AND streaming and timed capture so its a DVR app too
[00:13] <LaserJock> what would consitute analogue video?
[00:13] <LaserJock> *consititue
[00:13] <LaserJock> bah, whatever
[00:13] <knights> v4l(2) capture devices, s-video or composite or aerial signals
[00:14]  * mok0 looks at xdtv & thinks it looks cool
[00:14] <LaserJock> right, I think that would be me
[00:14] <knights> brooktree cards are good and popular for this use
[00:14] <LaserJock> although I don't capture it
[00:14] <LaserJock> except occasionally on a VCR
[00:14]  * Fujitsu admits that he does need to digitise some old video camera tapes, and hasn't found an app to do much about that before.
[00:14] <knights> thats what I've got anyway a bt878
[00:15] <knights> Well here you go Fujitsu- you use xdtv to capture it, then DeVeDe to convery it to DVD or SVCD- dead easy now eh? :D
[00:15]  * LaserJock just uses coax cable
[00:15] <LaserJock> I haven't upgraded to component cable just yet
[00:16] <LaserJock> I'm afraid they're going to shut down my TV here pretty soon
[00:16] <knights> If you have a DV camera with s-video or comp input you can go through firewire to do this too- but do you have both a firewire card and a decent camera etc?
[00:17] <Fujitsu> knights: Right, and I need to convince my saa7134 that it wants to capture audio.
[00:17] <knights> Yes, I think that should be great for it
[00:17] <LaserJock> anybody know when the US is supposed to go all digital for TV?
[00:17] <knights> It is supported by v4l2 isn't it?
[00:18] <imbrandon> LaserJock, by the end of 08 iirc
[00:18] <LaserJock> imbrandon: yikes :(
[00:18] <LaserJock> I better save my pennies
[00:18] <LaserJock> my new TV is from 1991
[00:18] <imbrandon> hehe
[00:18] <ajmitch> it's started in NZ
[00:19] <pwnguin> LaserJock: i dont think cable companies are regulated by that
[00:19] <pwnguin> just tv station over the air broadcasts
[00:19] <LaserJock> pwnguin: that's all I've got
[00:20] <imbrandon> yea no more 700mhz broadcasts for TV
[00:20] <LaserJock> so it's buy a new TV or switch to cable
[00:20] <LaserJock> ?
[00:20] <knights> imbrandon: How long does sync normally take?
[00:20] <LaserJock> or just don't bother ...
[00:20] <imbrandon> knights, 15 to 30 minutes, its about 3/4 done
[00:20]  * knights dead excited!
[00:21] <knights> Thanks imbrandon!
[00:21] <Fujitsu> knights: It is V4L two, yes.
[00:21] <knights> or 1
[00:21] <Fujitsu> 2, bah.
[00:21] <pwnguin> LaserJock: or wait for congress to balk because you havent bought a new tv
[00:21] <knights> 2 is pref
[00:22] <Fujitsu> knights: It is v4l2, as I see v4l1_compat stuff.
[00:22] <knights> Yes- despite me packaging this app I'd totally advocate everybody binning their TVs
[00:22] <LaserJock> pwnguin: or have them buy me one! :-)
[00:23] <crimsun> joejaxx: we do (i.e., best effort)
[00:23] <knights> If there's one thing that would survive the apocalypse it'll be the BBC
[00:23] <imbrandon> LaserJock, just get a tv capture card and watch cable via the small window while python hacking
[00:23] <somerville32> imbrandon, Thats hawt.
[00:23] <LaserJock> imbrandon: cable? that's a bit ... pricey
[00:23] <pwnguin> 50 dollars a month!
[00:23] <somerville32> lol
[00:24] <somerville32> My internet costs me $50 a month
[00:24] <somerville32> Although I can get internet, cable, and phone for $99 a month
[00:24] <imbrandon> i only have cable for 2 reasons, stargate atlantis on scifi and Heroes
[00:24] <pwnguin> my internet costs me 25
[00:24] <LaserJock> yeah there's no way I could do $40/month
[00:24] <somerville32> pwnguin, What speed?
[00:24] <LaserJock> *$50
[00:24] <pwnguin> somerville32: crappy
[00:24] <pwnguin> like 1.5mbit
[00:24] <somerville32> pwnguin, Mine is 7mb/s
[00:24] <pwnguin> good for you
[00:24] <somerville32> I don't eat because of it
[00:24] <somerville32> :(
[00:24] <imbrandon> mine is ~140 a month, cable tv + hbo sho and max , phone, and internets
[00:25] <LaserJock> yikes
[00:25] <pwnguin> imbrandon is gainfully employed
[00:25] <pwnguin> not a phd candidate in chemistry
[00:25] <imbrandon> 33 each + taxes
[00:26] <LaserJock> I pay $100 for DSl, landline, and 2 cell phones
[00:26] <imbrandon> i dont think i could have a computer hobby if my wife dident have the tube
[00:26] <imbrandon> so it works out
[00:26] <knights> Fujitsu: As I thought, your card should be perfect for xdtv: http://linuxtv.org/v4lwiki/index.php/Saa713x_devices
[00:26] <LaserJock> if I could  get rid of the landline it'd be nice
[00:26] <nixternal> I pay $0 for Comcast, I pay $0 for cell phone, but I pay a shitton for gasoline :)
[00:27] <imbrandon> knights, sync finished
[00:27] <LaserJock> nixternal: how much for gas?
[00:27] <knights> \o/
[00:27] <nixternal> 25gal tank, you do the math :)
[00:27] <Fujitsu> knights: Aha, thanks. I'll look into that.
[00:27] <LaserJock> nixternal: what's the price, is what I'm asking
[00:27] <nixternal> $3.10/gal today
[00:27] <pwnguin> so i have a licensing question: the sourcecode is clearly labelled GPLv3, but it uses game data that may or may not be DFSG
[00:27] <pwnguin> multiverse appropriate?
[00:28] <Fujitsu> pwnguin: SoulFu?
[00:28] <pwnguin> Fujitsu: yea
[00:28] <Fujitsu> We need to know the license.
[00:28] <LaserJock> nixternal: yeah, that is steep, I think we're averaging around $3.20 here
[00:28] <Fujitsu> Even for multiverse.
[00:28] <nixternal> on average, to fill up is anywhere from $70 to $80 depending on gas
[00:28] <nixternal> we will get up there...I just helped the gas station run out of gas today I think
[00:28] <LaserJock> nixternal: yeah, I've got a big minivan. it takes around that
[00:28] <somerville32> It is ~$0.98 here.
[00:28] <imbrandon> wha?
[00:29] <rexbron> hmm, I am getting an RTLD_NOW not declared in this scope when trying to compile....
[00:29] <rexbron> error that is
[00:29] <somerville32> Sometimes it goes over the dollar.
[00:29] <somerville32> A few years ago it was 0.70 - 0.80
[00:29] <LaserJock> somerville32: /liter?
[00:29] <somerville32> Yeah
[00:30] <Fujitsu> ~1.40AUD per litre here.
[00:30] <crimsun> rexbron: so, a missing include.
[00:30] <Fujitsu> crimsun: What brings you to these parts so frequently of late?
[00:31] <somerville32> Yea for different denominations and measuring systems that mean nothing to me! :)
[00:31] <crimsun> Fujitsu: "the calm before the storm"
[00:31] <LaserJock> somerville32: it's ~ $0.85/liter here
[00:31] <rexbron> crimsun: emm, is dlopen and its lot declared in libstdc++?
[00:31] <somerville32> LaserJock, Yeah, it is pretty expensive here.
[00:32] <mok0> Here price of gas is ~1.37 euro/L (us$1.85/L)
[00:32] <LaserJock> I think you have to also take into account average fuel efficency :-)
[00:33] <crimsun> rexbron: <dlfcn.h>
[00:33] <LaserJock> I've been to Paris and Sevilla and I'd have to say the average car size is quite a bit smaller there ;-)
[00:33] <mok0> It's mostly a difference in tax on gas
[00:33] <rexbron> crimsun:  cool
[00:33] <imbrandon> like my durango getting 11mi gal ? heh
[00:33] <LaserJock> yeah, I have one car that 15mpg and one that 17mpg
[00:34] <joejaxx> oh wow :\
[00:34] <LaserJock> yeah ... my wife likes big vehicles
[00:34] <LaserJock> she doesn't feel safe in anything that's not 4 wheel drive and hefty
[00:35] <joejaxx> ah ok
[00:35] <somerville32> Poor planet Earth.
[00:35] <LaserJock> personally I'd be fine with a little car
[00:35] <LaserJock> but she doesn't like them at all
[00:35] <LaserJock> somerville32: it'll get over it ;-)
[00:36]  * ajmitch doesn't understand these people that feel they need to drive around in a tank
[00:36] <LaserJock> umm
[00:36] <somerville32> Can I ask a touchy question?
[00:37] <ajmitch> no
[00:37] <LaserJock> I see enough accidents on a daily basis
[00:37] <LaserJock> I'm not gonna drive a mini-coffin around ;-)
[00:37] <ajmitch> you know why those accidents are bad? because the other guy is driving the tank :)
[00:37] <knights> well, dput said it successfully uploaded but then it said `Not running dinstall.` - is that right?
[00:37] <ajmitch> it's like an arms race
[00:37] <Burgundavia> LaserJock: ironically, SUVs are among the least safe vehicles around, due to high centre of balance
[00:37] <crimsun> knights: yes.
[00:37] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: it's not me I'm worried about ;-)
[00:37] <knights> Yay!
[00:37] <somerville32> The last accident I saw, someone drove into a traffic light and knocked it over :/
[00:38] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yes, it is
[00:38] <somerville32> Poor traffic light
[00:38] <knights> xdtv arrives!
[00:38] <somerville32> :(
[00:39] <knights> damn! as if my announcement co-incided with irc talk of a traffic accident :(
[00:39] <LaserJock> somerville32: yeah, I've seen a few of those too
[00:39] <knights> :)
[00:39] <LaserJock> heh
[00:39] <somerville32> Bye
[00:39]  * ajmitch thinks that people should use bikes more
[00:39] <knights> wo!
[00:39] <knights> must've said something
[00:39] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yeah, I wish that worked more around here
[00:39] <LaserJock> my labmate bikes a lot
[00:40] <ajmitch> LaserJock: I can walk to work each day
[00:40] <knights> or some major server has collapsed
[00:40] <LaserJock> there's no parking around here
[00:40] <ajmitch> there's little parking around uni
[00:40] <LaserJock> ajmitch: I live 10 miles from school, it'd take a while
[00:40] <knights> Fujitsu: xdtv should be in revu now
[00:40] <LaserJock> then I go to my grandparents which is 120 miles away
[00:41] <LaserJock> and my parents which is 900 miles away
[00:41] <Fujitsu> knights: I haven't got time today - another important exam tomorrow.
[00:41] <somerville32> Anyhow, time to ask that touchy question. The person who uploaded the package that caused  the x-server mess, did they lose upload privs?
[00:41] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: Walk there!
[00:41] <Fujitsu> Shouldn't take toooooooooo long.
[00:41] <Fujitsu> somerville32: What xserver mess?
[00:41] <LaserJock> rodrigo?
[00:41]  * Fujitsu hasn't seen one... since that Dapper SRU.
[00:41] <LaserJock> that dapper update?
[00:42] <somerville32> Yeah
[00:42] <LaserJock> no, he didn't
[00:42] <Fujitsu> Nobody has ever lost upload privileges.
[00:42] <Fujitsu> (other than normal expiry when they've been inactive forever)
[00:42] <imbrandon> unless they intentionaly deactivated themselfs
[00:42] <imbrandon> yes
[00:42] <Fujitsu> SRU processes are now improved.
[00:42] <ajmitch> somerville32: in that case, he did test, just not on a wide enough range of hardware
[00:42] <LaserJock> the "/sh" syndrome
[00:42] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: Which has happened once.
[00:42] <Fujitsu> It was a silly change to make in an SRU.
[00:43] <ajmitch> Fujitsu: silly change?
[00:43] <ajmitch> it was something meant to fix another bug
[00:43] <ajmitch> I can't remember details, it was to do with some PCI magic
[00:43]  * Fujitsu checks.
[00:43] <Fujitsu> It sounded risky.
[00:43] <Fujitsu> (and obviously was)
[00:44] <LaserJock> I don't know why they made him do X anyway
[00:44] <ajmitch> and wasn't tested enough, as we know now
[00:44] <somerville32> Fujitsu, Can you post the ml post for the upload?
[00:44] <knights> Fujitsu: What exam is this?
[00:44] <ajmitch>    * Added 005_pci_domain.dpatch (Closes Malone #54880)
[00:44] <knights> How long will it take before my package shows up on http://revu.tauware.de/ ?
[00:45] <imbrandon> ok i'm off line for a bit, back in a few hours
[00:45] <Fujitsu> knights: At the next 10 minutely processing job.
[00:45] <crimsun> ah, so it's joejaxx who's filling my inbox
[00:45] <crimsun> joejaxx: keep up the good work!
[00:45] <imbrandon> knights, 10 min or so
[00:45] <knights> cool- I can hack that :)
[00:45] <joejaxx> crimsun: :D
[00:45] <ubotu_> Launchpad bug 54880 in xorg-server "Does not support Linux PCI domains" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/54880
[00:45] <ajmitch> what is joejaxx breaking?
[00:45] <ajmitch> thanks ubotu_
[00:45] <crimsun> merges
[00:45] <ajmitch> slow bot
[00:45] <Fujitsu> Ubotu is speedy as always.
[00:46] <somerville32> As about speedy as my computer, I'd say.
[00:46] <azeem> if somebody wants to try building opensync-0.34 packages: deb-src http://people.debian.org/~mbanck/debian-opensync/ ./
[00:46] <LaserJock> does anybody here know anything about how translations/lang packs work?
[00:46] <azeem> slangasek: ^^
[00:46] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: I know a little. What do you want to know?
[00:46] <azeem> (I didn't get around setting up a hardy chroot yet)
[00:47] <somerville32> azeem, Is it like a puzzle?
[00:47] <somerville32> azeem, Why not use PPA?
[00:47] <azeem> somerville32: ?
[00:47] <ajmitch> somerville32: why use a PPA?
[00:47] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: well, I'm sort of tring to debug why gcompris has bad translations
[00:47] <azeem> somerville32: because it's 1:50 AM and I fought cmake
[00:47] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: What's broken about them?
[00:47] <azeem> I'm not going to figure out hardy or ppa now
[00:47] <ajmitch> azeem: good work on getting it done then :)
[00:47] <ajmitch> are PPAs still restricted to beta users only?
[00:48] <somerville32> yes
[00:48] <somerville32> But who isn't a beta user?
[00:48] <ajmitch> many, many people
[00:48] <Fujitsu> It's well over 500 now, isn't it?
[00:49] <Fujitsu> 770, ouch.
[00:49] <ajmitch> even so, having to get PPA approval before being able to upload & get things built is just another obstacle
[00:49] <Fujitsu> ajmitch: Is that a problem?
[00:50] <Fujitsu> I think we want more obstacles, not fewer.
[00:50] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: actually it looks like LP says that it's all translated, but the UI doesn't show it
[00:50] <ajmitch> that's bureaucracy, not anything actually useful
[00:50] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: I was thinking maybe it was a packaging thing, but maybe it's an LP thing
[00:51] <ajmitch> if you want more obstacles, you may as well ask people to fill out forms in triplicate & bury them in a peat bog for a few months
[00:51] <LaserJock> ajmitch: capital idea good fellow!
[00:51]  * LaserJock looks around for a peat bog
[00:53] <somerville32> superm1, \o/
[00:53] <joejaxx> somerville32: \o/
[00:53] <somerville32> :D
[00:53] <joejaxx> :D
[00:54] <superm1_> hi
[00:54] <superm1_> what's up?
[00:54] <somerville32> superm1_, I noticed you joined xubuntu-team
[00:54] <superm1_> somerville32, :)
[00:54] <somerville32> superm1_, You should join us in #xubuntu-devel for tea.
[00:54] <superm1_> yeah i uploaded two or three plugins too
[00:55] <somerville32> I'm merging xfce4-session at the moment
[00:55] <somerville32> Just building to see if it works :)
[00:55] <somerville32> and it does.
[00:56] <LaserJock> somerville32: heah .... you could help me with a bug test
[00:56] <somerville32> LaserJock, Oh?
[00:57] <LaserJock> there's a bug about gcompris not working correctly with Xfce
[00:57] <LaserJock> bug #41172
[00:57] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 41172 in gcompris "XUBUNTU panels in Gcompris" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/41172
[00:57] <LaserJock> think you could give it a test real quick?
[00:57] <somerville32> LaserJock, Sure.
[00:58]  * Fujitsu wonders why lots of people ALLCAPS Ubuntu.
[00:58] <LaserJock> BECAUSE ITS FUN
[00:58] <somerville32> YEAH!
[00:59] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: I honestly have no idea
[00:59] <LaserJock> maybe they are an OS X users mostly
[00:59] <joejaxx> lol
[00:59] <superm1_> why would osx users do that?
[00:59] <superm1_> :)
[00:59] <joejaxx> TESTING :D
[01:00] <joejaxx> lol
[01:00]  * Fujitsu attacks joejaxx with pointed sticks.
[01:00] <somerville32> LaserJock, I love the bug report description
[01:01] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: hey! i do not think Hobbsee licensed those out
[01:01] <joejaxx> lol
[01:01] <ajmitch> broken, plz fix?
[01:01] <joejaxx> :P
[01:01] <somerville32> close.
[01:01] <LaserJock> somerville32: yes, it's a bit difficult for me to understand exactly
[01:01] <somerville32> "When i start de gcompris in XUBUNTU open the gcompris, but the panels 1 and 2 stay with the program open.
[01:01] <somerville32> In other desktop no had panel with gcompris."
[01:01] <ajmitch> joejaxx: don't summon the hobbsee
[01:02] <crimsun> somerville32: xfwm4<->gcompris, probably
[01:03] <LaserJock> crimsun: when gcompris is opened fullscreen the xfce panels apparently stay on top
[01:03] <joejaxx> ajmitch: :P
[01:03] <LaserJock> crimsun: I believe that's what the bug is
[01:05] <ajmitch> file a removal request for gcompris, problem solved
[01:05] <LaserJock> doh
[01:05] <joejaxx> ajmitch: :P
[01:05] <LaserJock> gcompris is arguable *the* top educational app in Linux
[01:06] <joejaxx> i think MoM
[01:06] <joejaxx> is messing up
[01:06] <joejaxx>     + Build-Depend on libx11-dev | xlibs-dev, libxpm-dev | xlibs-dev.
[01:06] <joejaxx> that is from the debian changelogs
[01:07] <Fujitsu> MoM does have some issues, but nothing critical.
[01:07] <Fujitsu> Saying there are conflicts where there aren't, etc.
[01:07] <joejaxx> Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5.0.0), cdbs, libx11-dev, libxpm-dev
[01:07] <joejaxx> that is the debian modification
[01:07] <joejaxx> wth did those bild depends go?
[01:07] <joejaxx> build*
[01:07] <joejaxx> they are listed under the ubuntu modifications
[01:07] <TheMuso> joejaxx: Look at the patches that MoM generated.
[01:08] <LaserJock> joejaxx: don't look at MoM ...
[01:08] <ajmitch> merge without MoM
[01:08] <TheMuso> joejaxx: Were there any conflicts?
[01:08] <joejaxx> TheMuso: yes
[01:09] <ajmitch> there's your answer
[01:09] <LaserJock> MoM was boozing it up and got a little tipsy
[01:09] <joejaxx> ajmitch: yeah but that line is listed under the ubuntu modication
[01:09] <ajmitch> LaserJock: you were a bad influence
[01:09] <LaserJock> "hmmm, I can't remember what dep was supposed to go here, ah well"
[01:09] <ajmitch> joejaxx: that's probably quite true - the same line would have been changed in different ways
[01:09] <ajmitch> you do not need the xlibs-dev build dependency
[01:09] <LaserJock> ajmitch: so look at the debdiff
[01:10] <joejaxx> LOL
[01:10] <LaserJock> sorry joejaxx
[01:10] <ajmitch> LaserJock: don't tell me to, tell joejaxx to :)
[01:10] <crimsun> ah, I remember the X.Org b-d transition
[01:10] <joejaxx> i just stumbled across the canonical ldap directory
[01:10] <joejaxx> loool
[01:10] <ajmitch> crimsun: back in the day....
[01:10] <TheMuso> joejaxx: as I said, look at the patches, particularly the patch that MoM gave you from the previous merge. That patch shows what was changed.
[01:10] <Fujitsu> joejaxx: Er?
[01:11] <LaserJock> ajmitch: it wasn't that long ago was it? was it before the GL transition?
[01:11] <ajmitch> LaserJock: it was long enough ago
[01:11] <LaserJock> sure
[01:11] <LaserJock> but I think I remember it
[01:11]  * ajmitch feels old & washed up
[01:11] <LaserJock> I kinda came in at the middle of the GL transition
[01:12] <somerville32> crimsun, share some love?
[01:12] <somerville32> Bug #160314
[01:12] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 160314 in xfce4-session "xfce4-session: merge new Debian version" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160314
[01:13] <crimsun> somerville32: after "MODPOST 1939 modules" completes.
[01:13] <ajmitch> sigh, I bought a new novel at lunchtime, I know what I'll be doing until sometime in the morning
[01:13] <LaserJock> geeze
[01:13] <LaserJock> I wish I had time to read
[01:13] <LaserJock> instead I'm stuck wasting my day on IRC ;-)
[01:14] <ajmitch> oh I do things like reading instead of wasting my time on ubuntu :)
[01:14] <LaserJock> shesh
[01:14] <joejaxx> ajmitch: lol
[01:14] <somerville32> lol
[01:14] <crimsun> LaserJock: I'm sticking jdong on you :p
[01:15] <ajmitch> LaserJock: run now
[01:15] <jdong> LaserJock: hey, you provide chem homework help for Ubuntu members, right? :D
[01:15] <LaserJock> lol
[01:15] <LaserJock> what kind of chem homework?
[01:15] <jdong> LaserJock: really basic
[01:15] <joejaxx> wow
[01:15] <jdong> no pun intended.
[01:15] <ajmitch> LaserJock: here's your chance to put him off chemistry forever
[01:15] <joejaxx> so i found out
[01:15] <joejaxx> it was a debian regression
[01:15]  * jdong hits himself for that pun actually
[01:15] <LaserJock> I used to tutor for $30/hr
[01:15] <joejaxx> lol
[01:15] <ajmitch> someone please ban jdong
[01:16] <jdong> LaserJock: what's the dissociation equation for K3PO4 in water? I'm assuming it's a base
[01:16] <LaserJock> geeze, I don't give away answers ;-)
[01:16] <jdong> LaserJock: I'm guessing K3PO4 + H2O <--> K+ + K2HPO4 + OH-?
[01:16] <LaserJock> what do you take me for, an MIT student?!?! ;-)
[01:16] <Fujitsu> jdong: You know how we have the FTBFS issues because of Sun Java wanting EULA acceptance on the buildds? Can we modify them to dep on icedtea instead?
[01:17]  * joejaxx misses Chemistry
[01:17] <jdong> Fujitsu: assuming that they aren't broken by the changes in Java 7, yes. It's worth a try definitely
[01:17] <joejaxx> i should have majored in that instead of compsci/math/mis
[01:17] <joejaxx> jdong: lol java7
[01:17] <jdong> LaserJock: haha well I put in a good attempt, help the poor kid :)
[01:18] <jdong> joejaxx: hmm?
[01:18] <LaserJock> jdong: that doesn't look right
[01:18] <Fujitsu> jdong: If it builds, is it OK?
[01:18] <jdong> LaserJock: or does it take  --> HK3PO4+ + OH-? That looks even more awkward.
[01:19] <LaserJock> jdong: oh, it's the K+ OH- that looked odd
[01:19] <ajmitch> LaserJock: I suppose you've forgotten all that early chemistry stuff? :)
[01:19] <joejaxx> gnomefreak: :D
[01:19] <jdong> LaserJock: I'm really tempted to think it would go down the K(n-1)H(n+1)PO4 path as far as the salt on the other side goes, right?
[01:19] <LaserJock> ajmitch: quite, it was about 9 years ago now
[01:20] <jdong> Fujitsu: I'd assume so :) it's better than not building at all, right?
[01:20] <Fujitsu> jdong: True, true.
[01:20] <gnomefreak> sorry having ~/.irssi/config issues
[01:20] <LaserJock> jdong: that seems logical to me
[01:20] <LaserJock> jdong: you *could* lose the O and get a PO3 but I'm thinking not
[01:21] <jdong> LaserJock: hmm it's the first problem set on acid-bases so I doubt they'd pull something that unexpected on us
[01:21] <LaserJock> unless you had something that wanted Os
[01:21] <jdong> LaserJock: I get the feeling like it's supposed to be a really basic question
[01:21] <azeem> jdong: keep hydrogen tunelling in mind!!
[01:21] <azeem> tunnelling*
[01:21] <jdong> LaserJock: it's simply classifying this huge list of compounds into acids or bases or neither
[01:22] <jdong> and then of course dissociation equation
[01:22] <LaserJock> jdong: I guess I would have done KOH + H2HPO4 but other than that
[01:22] <jdong> LaserJock: agreed, but wouldn't KOH in turn readily dissociate into K+ and OH-?
[01:23] <LaserJock> well, K2HPO4 would too
[01:23] <azeem> the question is whether H2KPO4 will stay around, or whether everything will be ionized
[01:23] <LaserJock> you'd get down to 3K+ + PO43- ,etc.
[01:23] <jdong> all, all forms of K*H*PO4 are used as buffers
[01:23] <jdong> so yeah I guess ultimately it'd ionize down even more
[01:23] <LaserJock> that might depend on the ionic strength or some such
[01:24] <jdong> ok, well that answer is good enough for me then.
[01:24] <LaserJock> jdong: I would guess your answer was probably OK
[01:24] <jdong> LaserJock: would you be willing to tackle one of them amine ones? :)
[01:24] <LaserJock> jdong: but if you get it wrong don't blame me
[01:24] <LaserJock> my chemistry answers are "use at your own risk" ;-)
[01:24] <somerville32> What is the compound again?
[01:24] <LaserJock> jdong: what is it?
[01:25] <jdong> somerville32: K3PO4, tribasic potassium phosphate
[01:25] <jdong> methylamine hydrocholride.....
[01:25] <jdong> which I'm guessing is CH3NH2*HCL?
[01:25] <jdong> it's tempting to say the HCL part screams acid, but I don't have good reason to suspect that
[01:26] <somerville32> H means acid :P
[01:26] <jdong> somerville32: haha :)
[01:26] <jdong> somerville32: I wish for those times again ;-)
[01:26] <somerville32> States of matter matter!
[01:26] <somerville32> Where are your states of matter!!
[01:27] <joejaxx> lolol
[01:27] <somerville32> Isn't it ionic how we forget such things?
[01:28]  * Fujitsu sets Hobbsee on somerville32.
[01:28] <LaserJock> jdong: hehe, found something on it on a webpage about ecstacy
[01:28] <jdong> LaserJock: ROFL
[01:28] <Fujitsu> Hahahah.
[01:29] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: you better be careful she might make you pay royalties for using the pointed sticks on me without permission :P
[01:29]  * ajmitch is shocked
[01:29]  * Fujitsu sneaks up behind ajmitch with some alligator clips.
[01:30] <LaserJock> jdong: well, it looks to me like it's CH2NH*HCl
[01:30] <LaserJock> jdong: in which case I might expect it to go to CH3NH+ + Cl-
[01:31] <jdong> LaserJock: http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methylamine_hydrochloride.html
[01:31] <somerville32> Where did the Cl come from with K3(PO4)?
[01:31] <jdong> LaserJock: either way, whatever the extension, I think you're right with the NHx+ + Cl-
[01:31]  * jdong checks if these have to be written a la bronsted-lowry...
[01:31] <jdong> somerville32: different question now :)
[01:31] <somerville32> What was the answer to that one and what are we on now?
[01:33] <jdong> somerville32: I'm gonna go with K3PO4 + H2O <--> K+ + K2HPO4 + OH-
[01:33] <LaserJock> jdong: it actually might depend on if its CH3NH2*HCl or CH3NH*HCl
[01:34] <jdong> somerville32: we are now working on CH3NH3C
[01:34] <jdong> err stupid network
[01:34] <LaserJock> I guess the former would be a hydrogen bond via the lonepair on the N
[01:34] <jdong> CH3NH3Cl ,l[B[B[A[A[A[A[A[A[A~.
[01:34] <jdong>  that should be
[01:34] <jdong> ok, that looks good then
[01:35] <LaserJock> in which case it'd end up as perhaps H3CNH2 + H+ + Cl-
[01:36] <jdong> ok, cool, that's what I have down currently
[01:36] <jdong> LaserJock: any guesses on C5H5NHCl?
[01:36] <jdong> it looks extremely similar :D
[01:36] <LaserJock> jdong: heh, that's funny, I actually got some Gen Chem lectures from MIT off of iTunes U
[01:36] <jdong> sweet
[01:37]  * jdong just wants to fulfill the institute requirement on chem and run away from that subject :D
[01:37] <LaserJock> I wanted to see how the "big guns" teach
[01:37] <minghua> jdong: Do I need to do anything else for bug 160361, or can you already approve it?
[01:37] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 160361 in gutsy-backports "Please backport scim-hangul 0.3.1-1ubuntu1 from hardy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160361
[01:37] <zul> evening
[01:37] <LaserJock> jdong: is that really C5?
[01:37] <jdong> minghua: that one sounds good for backporting
[01:37] <joejaxx> hello zul
[01:37] <jdong> LaserJock: yes, according to the worksheet it is
[01:37] <zul> hi joejaxx
[01:38] <ajmitch> welcome to chemistry class, zul
[01:38] <jdong> LaserJock: pyridinium chloride, one of those ring structure thingies
[01:38] <zul> ajmitch: lovely i never had chemistry
[01:38] <jdong> with an N+-H tail
[01:38] <jdong> these molecular biology-ish topics scare me.
[01:38] <LaserJock> jdong: k, I was just wondering if it was a typo and was really a benzene
[01:38] <minghua> jdong: I'll leave it in your hands then, thanks.
[01:39] <elkbuntu> ... -motu has become -chemistry-homework?
[01:39] <zul> i like doughnuts
[01:39] <ajmitch> elkbuntu: apparantly so
[01:39] <joejaxx> elkbuntu: hello! :D
[01:39] <joejaxx> zul: lool
[01:39] <jdong> minghua: sounds good, I'll approve it shortly
[01:40] <elkbuntu> joejaxx, hi! :D
[01:40] <joejaxx> elkbuntu: :D
[01:40] <jdong> minghua: on the condition that LaserJock finishes my chem homework ;-)
[01:40] <elkbuntu> joejaxx, no texan bus driver incidents from last week?
[01:40] <joejaxx> elkbuntu: LOL! nope
[01:40]  * ajmitch wonders what story elkbuntu is referring to now
[01:40] <cyberix> Does anybody know the correct package for this? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/160362
[01:40] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 160362 in ubuntu ""Ubuntu has some information for you."" [Undecided,New]
[01:41] <minghua> ... that's a strange bug title.
[01:41] <elkbuntu> ajmitch, maah wayuf wahz ah may-uhn
[01:41] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: orly?
[01:41] <knights> mayan?
[01:41] <joejaxx> elkbuntu: LMAO
[01:41] <elkbuntu> LaserJock, surely you remember the texan bus driver from mt view?
[01:41] <jdong> cyberix: I think that's a functionality of update-manager
[01:42] <LaserJock> elkbuntu: hmm, no, I wasn't on the bus much
[01:42] <jdong> cyberix: and if I recall, the description in the balloon popup does say what you said it should say
[01:42] <joejaxx> hello persia ! :D
[01:42] <persia> hey joejaxx
[01:42] <jdong> cyberix: i.e. the title is information available, but the bubble says "Something might require your attention, etc"
[01:42] <cyberix> oh
[01:42] <cyberix> Well the user didn't seem tonotice that.
[01:43] <zul> maybe the notification should be something like "you have reached an invalid number, if you think this is a bug please try again later this has been a recording"
[01:43] <jdong> cyberix: well would blinking red text and text-to-speech in a sexy female announcer voice help? ;-)
[01:43] <somerville32> K2PO4 + H20.. would you not just do double replacement?
[01:44] <somerville32> Otherwise it is just K2 +  PO4 - since K2PO4 has  high solubility
[01:44] <elkbuntu> LaserJock, he started on with racist stuff with joejaxx on board. i wasnt on the bus either, but mneptok's reenactment was quite humorous
[01:44] <ajmitch> elkbuntu: I don't recall that
[01:44] <LaserJock> somerville32: it's K3PO4
[01:44] <somerville32> w/e
[01:44] <jdong> somerville32: K3, and considering that the topic is acid-base reactions I'm expecting them to readily follow the stereotypical bronstead-lowry forms
[01:44] <ajmitch> maybe I was asleep :)
[01:44] <joejaxx> elkbuntu: LOL
[01:44] <zul> elkbuntu: he was hilarious
[01:44] <jdong> somerville32: at least I need to dissociate it enough to demonstrate that it's indeed a base; past that I honestly don't care ;-)
[01:45] <somerville32> jdong: Does the reaction occur after the dissociation?
[01:45] <zul> elkbuntu: minus the racist stuff
[01:45] <LaserJock> jdong: can you check C5H5NHCl again? that just seems wrong
[01:45] <elkbuntu> zul, the other bus driver was just as humorous. he couldnt figure the way between the hotel and the googleplex
[01:45] <joejaxx> i had a question for you all :P
[01:45] <somerville32> joejaxx, Good for you :P
[01:45] <elkbuntu> !ask | joejaxx
[01:45] <ubotu> joejaxx: Don't ask to ask a question. Just ask your question :)
[01:45] <LaserJock> joejaxx: that's y'all
[01:45] <joejaxx> has anyone ever thought about using package deltas for the updates repository?
[01:46]  * elkbuntu ducks
[01:46] <persia> joejaxx: Yes, and it's an annoying problem to which there is no clear solution.
[01:46] <jdong> LaserJock: verified, it's C5H5N (pyridine) protonated to C5H5NH+ (pyridinium ion), and the chloride salt of that
[01:46] <LaserJock> joejaxx: sure
[01:46] <joejaxx> instead of an entire new package
[01:46] <joejaxx> persia: oh?
[01:46] <joejaxx> elkbuntu: lol :P
[01:46] <jdong> LaserJock: so I'm guessing a C5N5N + H3O+ + CL- type form on the right.
[01:46]  * somerville32 points jdong and LaserJock to #ubuntu-science
[01:47] <LaserJock> jdong: oh freaking heck, right. I was thinking a 5-memebered ring ... it's been a while
[01:47] <zul> whoosh...
[01:47] <zul> straight over my head
[01:47] <jdong> LaserJock: hehe, no worries, it's stuff that you wish to shove out of your memory as soon as possible ;-)
[01:47] <persia> joejaxx: 1) You have to be able to generate a package diff against whatever version the user happens to have installed (which may not be the latest previous), 2) you have to do this without downloading the entire thing to the user workation, 3) you have to do this without bloating the archives, and 4) you have to do this without requiring more processing power from the mirror hosts.
[01:48] <LaserJock> jdong: well, supposedly next fall I could be teaching gen chem so I'm gonna have to "refresh"
[01:48] <ajmitch> LaserJock: you won't have graduated by then?
[01:48] <LaserJock> ajmitch: yes, and hopefully with a job
[01:48] <joejaxx> persia: oh ok
[01:49] <joejaxx> yeah
[01:49] <jdong> LaserJock: sounds awesome :)
[01:49] <zul> LaserJock: you could work for canonical ;)
[01:49] <jdong> LaserJock: you gonna accept MOTU merges as a form of extra credit? ;-)
[01:49] <LaserJock> zul: yes, but I'd like to think I'd do something with my PhD ;-)
[01:49] <LaserJock> jdong: hehe, yeah
[01:50] <LaserJock> I wonder if I could get away with that
[01:50] <zul> LaserJock: you could also drive a taxi
[01:50] <ajmitch> or work at mcdonalds
[01:50] <LaserJock> merge all chemistry software for 50 extra points
[01:50] <LaserJock> zul, ajmitch : no, I think I'd be working for Canonical before that
[01:50] <zul> ajmitch: that would be beneath him
[01:50]  * persia thinks driving taxis is fun
[01:51] <ajmitch> LaserJock: what, canonical is barely above mcdonalds?
[01:51] <LaserJock> zul: I don't know, people at McDonalds in San Fransisco make about as much as me
[01:51] <LaserJock> ajmitch: pretty much ;-)
[01:51] <zul> heh
[01:51] <joejaxx> LaserJock: i am about to do a science one does that count? :P
[01:51] <LaserJock> yep
[01:51] <joejaxx> :D
[01:51]  * LaserJock gives joejaxx a gold star for the day
[01:52] <joejaxx> :D
[01:52] <LaserJock> oh stink!!!
[01:52] <LaserJock> the Golden Ponies!
[01:52] <LaserJock> I totally forgot
[01:52] <gene6482> could somebody help me try to patch a kernel?
[01:52] <joejaxx> i am working on gcx at the moment
[01:52] <gene6482> i asked in the main channel but was told to come here
[01:53] <ajmitch> LaserJock: how could you forget?
[01:53] <LaserJock> ajmitch: I don't know. I remember around RC but forgot
[01:53] <ajmitch> truly sad
[01:53] <ajmitch> Hobbsee!
[01:53] <LaserJock> *remembered
[01:53] <superm1_> gene6482, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelPatches
[01:53] <zul> hey Hobbsee
[01:54] <gene6482> superm1: thanks
[01:54]  * somerville32 screams!
[01:54] <bddebian> Heya gang
[01:54] <LaserJock> k, I'm off for home
[01:54] <superm1_> gene6482, and then after you go through that, you may end up here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile
[01:55] <LaserJock> bbiab and I'll work on the Golden Ponies
[01:55] <joejaxx> LaserJock: :D :P
[01:55] <bddebian> Later LaserJock
[01:55] <joejaxx> hello bddebian
[01:55] <bddebian> Heya joejaxx
[01:55] <Hobbsee> hiya!
[01:55] <joejaxx> Hobbsee: :D
[01:55] <bddebian> Hi Hobbsee
[01:55] <ScottK2> Heya Hobbsee
[01:56] <bddebian> Heya ScottK2
[01:56] <gene6482> superm1: i've compiled the kernel, and it works, but it's related to an open bug report and i wasn't sure how to go about getting it implemented (so everyone with my problem won't have to manually compile the kernel themselves
[01:57] <gene6482> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/136469
[01:57] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 136469 in linux-source-2.6.22 "toshiba p100 series dsdt acpi error no sound, works with acpi turned off." [Medium,Triaged]
[01:57] <jdong> LaserJock: thanks for all your help man :) you're the best
[01:57] <bddebian> Bah, LaserJock can't leave, I need python help :-)
[01:58] <ScottK2> Heya bddebian
[01:58] <persia> gene6482: Is the patch put in the bug an hour ago correct?
[01:58] <StevenK> bddebian: More people than LaserJock know Python
[01:58] <ScottK2> bddebian: What is it?
[01:58] <ajmitch> bddebian: I'm sure you'll figure it out :)
[01:58]  * StevenK chuckles
[01:58] <superm1_> gene6482, /j #ubuntu-kernel
[01:58] <bddebian> This is from scratch though :-(
[01:59] <superm1_> gene6482, they are the ones that will be making the final call about what's included in StableReleaseUpdates for kernels
[01:59] <bddebian> ScottK2: I'm trying to package up all the Thousand Parsec crap
[01:59] <persia> StevenK: Speaking of Python: what is your opinion of a dictionary in which some definitions are tuples and other definitions are embedded dictionaries?
[01:59] <ajmitch> bddebian: if it's crap, why are you trying to package it?
[01:59] <ScottK2> OK.  Dunow what that is.
[01:59] <bddebian> I already did libtpproto but I did the C++ lib and I need the python lib :-(
[01:59] <ScottK2> Dunno even
[01:59] <gene6482> persia: it's a little bit up from there, it's a change in a specific file that unbreaks our sound
[01:59] <bddebian> ajmitch: It's for the Debian games team.  I was asked for assistance :)
[02:00] <ScottK2> bddebian: You might ask on #debian-python on OFTC.  They're reasonably nice there.
[02:00] <persia> gene6482: The kernel team is subscribed.  If you can post your specific experience, the patch used to address the bug, and your testing to ensure there isn't a regression somewhere else, the kernel team will see it.  If you want to discuss it, #ubuntu-kernel is indeed the best place for discussion.
[02:00] <ScottK2> bddebian: You might even get POX_ to upload it for you.
[02:01] <gene6482> thanks persia
[02:02] <bddebian> ScottK2: I guess I'll try that, thanks
[02:02] <Fujitsu> jdong: Yay, the two things work fine when built with icedtea, and run with icedtea. However, they die horribly (abort) when run with Java 6... should I remove the Sun Java option from the dependencies?
[02:03] <Fujitsu> Or am I doing something wrong when building?
[02:03] <gene6482> on a side note, i'd like to help contribute more, but i don't really know all that much, is there any sort of motu mentoring program?
[02:03] <somerville32> gene6482, Sure is! :)
[02:03] <persia> gene6482: There is, but the queue is a bit long.  I'd suggest just jumping in, and asking questions here or via email to<EMAIL_ADDRESS>if you get stuck.
[02:03] <joejaxx> bddebian: do you remember what the Makefile in the docs directory is for? https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~joejaxx/ubuntu/merges/gcx_0.9.11-1ubuntu1.MERGE.debdiff.txt
[02:04] <jdong> Fujitsu: eep that sounds nasty... is it using a java compatibility level?
[02:04] <Fujitsu> jdong: Noo idea.
[02:05] <somerville32> crimsun, How is the love coming?
[02:05] <jdong> Fujitsu: (and I'm not comfortable with just saying icedtea only this time... it's demonstrating faulty bytecode if ti doesn't run with the java 6 runtime)
[02:05] <bddebian> joejaxx: I don't think I touched that
[02:05] <joejaxx> bddebian: ok
[02:06] <joejaxx> because it is in the ubuntu modified patch for .8
[02:07] <somerville32> LaserJock, Can you do bug 160314 for me?
[02:07] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 160314 in xfce4-session "xfce4-session: merge new Debian version" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160314
[02:07] <somerville32> gpocentek, You around? :)
[02:07] <Hobbsee> somerville32: the sponsors are subscribed, no?
[02:08] <somerville32> Hobbsee, yup.
[02:08] <Fujitsu> jdong: java: xcb_xlib.c:50: xcb_xlib_unlock: Assertion `c->xlib.lock' failed.
[02:08] <Fujitsu> Seen anything like that before?
[02:09] <superm1_> somerville32, there is a canonical all hands meeting going on this week so i suspect finding archive admins will be a challenge
[02:09] <jdong> Fujitsu: oh god not the whole xlib locking thing again.
[02:09] <persia> gene6482: If you're having difficultly knowing where to start, just ask here: generally we've some extra work we're happy to point at, or can guide you in finding bugs if you know what you want to do.
[02:09] <jdong> Fujitsu: yeah, seen it widespread ot just on Java
[02:09] <jdong> Fujitsu: has something to do with how agressively X enforices some lock, I guess ask an X guru what it really means :)
[02:09] <Fujitsu> Works fine on icedtea 7, and I'm trying Java 5 now.
[02:09] <somerville32> superm1_, It just needs a sponsor, no?
[02:10]  * superm1_ looks closer at the bug.
[02:10] <superm1_> for some reason i thought you were asking someone to release it from NEW.  my bad
[02:10] <persia> somerville32: If it just needs a sponsor, sticking it queue should be sufficient.  It might take a little while, but will get uploaded.  Asking for specific sponsorship just elevates the channel traffic.
[02:11] <somerville32> persia, And disturb the chemistry tutoring and discussion of car accidents? :P
[02:11] <persia> somerville32: Right.  The channel is for discussion of things currently in the mind of those interested in the universe component.  The queue is for upload requests.
[02:12] <Fujitsu> jdong: So it's probably not an icedtea bug?
[02:14] <jdong> Fujitsu: hmm I wouldn't think it's an icedtea bug....
[02:14] <minghua> Fujitsu: That's a well know bug -- Java doesn't work well with XCB-based xlib.
[02:14] <jdong> Fujitsu: it might technically be a bug (sloppy locking of some sort) in binary java?
[02:14] <minghua> s/know/known/
[02:14] <Fujitsu> jdong: That's what I thought.
[02:14] <Fujitsu> I don't think the bytecode could cause that.
[02:14] <Fujitsu> And with Java 5 I get a class version error, but I presume that's intended behaviour.
[02:15] <jdong> Fujitsu: yeah, the java stack is likely too old
[02:15] <jdong> Fujitsu: which means you should probably be alt-depping on icedtea or java6 (but since java6 doesn't woork.....)
[02:15] <Fujitsu> Yep.
[02:16] <Fujitsu> I'll leave java6 in for now.
[02:16] <jdong> hmm well since java6 doesn't work, how about we dep on icedtea and have the launcher explicitly ask for java7 with environment override option?
[02:16] <jdong> like what I did to Azureus's launcher
[02:16] <Fujitsu> Ah.
[02:16]  * Fujitsu looks at it.
[02:17] <Fujitsu> Ah, I see.
[02:18] <jdong> alt-depping on a nonfuntional java stack is a bit silly
[02:18] <jdong> and confusing to the user
[02:18] <Fujitsu> Probably.
[02:19] <jdong> I wish we had a HIG guideline of how to communicate to the user alternatives-related problems like this
[02:20] <jdong> Ideally, it'd be nice if the "additional information" type balloon messages were permanently stored and accesible via some event viewer like UI
[02:20] <jdong> so users can refer back to the message if required later
[02:20] <jdong> for example, like iwth xserver-xgl, it tells the user "you can disable it by touching ~/.config/blahblah" -- who's gonna remember that? does the user have to get out a sticky note and write that down? :)
[02:21] <Fujitsu> At the moment, it checks various Java-related environment variables, then uses the one in $PATH otherwise. Should I remove the $PATH check entirely, or just check for java7 beforehand?
[02:21] <Fujitsu> jdong: The update-notifier bubbles?
[02:21] <jdong> Fujitsu: yeah, like the lightbulb one that tells you to restart firefox, or log out, etc.
[02:21] <jdong> it would be nice for communicating gotchas/post-install config for packages
[02:21] <bddebian> StevenK: So were you offering to play pyhton packaging mentor? :-)
[02:22] <StevenK> I was not. I was merely commenting that other people besides LaserJock known Python
[02:22] <Fujitsu> jdong: Do I leave the attempt at using $PATH in?
[02:22] <somerville32> bddebian, I'm pretty okay with python packaging.
[02:22] <jdong> Fujitsu: I'd have it check for (1) PKGNAME_JAVA environment variable (2) hardcoded icedtea7 path (3) $PATH
[02:22] <jdong> in that order
[02:22] <gene6482> could somebody help me get started with packaging, i'd love to help get more software in to the distro
[02:23] <bddebian> Nah, we have too much already ;-)
[02:23] <gene6482> i'm reading the wiki right now
[02:23] <Fujitsu> jdong: It already checks for JAVACMD, JAVA_HOME, etc.
[02:23] <jdong> Fujitsu: ah, ok, then amke sure those checks get first priority, then continue #2/#3 :)
[02:24] <Fujitsu> Oh, PKGNAME as in not literal, oops.
[02:24] <jdong> right
[02:24] <bddebian> somerville32: Great, you're it :-)
[02:24] <Fujitsu> I was thinking that was another thing like JAVACMD or whatever.
[02:24] <jdong> well, yeah, similar, but per-package override
[02:24] <somerville32> :D
[02:24] <jdong> so if a power user thinks he has a better Java stack for the job, he can have a way to override, apart from editing the launcher
[02:24] <joejaxx>  https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~joejaxx/ubuntu/merges/joystick_20051019-1ubuntu4.MERGE.debdiff.txt
[02:25] <joejaxx> can anyone tell me if i did that right?
[02:25] <jdong> aah my battery is gonna die any second, time for me to disapear :)
[02:25] <Fujitsu> Bye jdong.
[02:25] <Fujitsu> Thanks.
[02:25] <somerville32> jdong, much love! ttyl
[02:25] <joejaxx> there was a nmu in debian so now the versioning has the .1
[02:25] <joejaxx> so i made my upload 1ubuntu4
[02:25] <jdong> no problem, you guys rock :)
[02:26] <s1024kb> persia: Good morning
[02:26] <ajmitch> joejaxx: no
[02:26] <ajmitch> -1.1ubuntu1
[02:26] <joejaxx> ajmitch: that is supposed to be like that?
[02:27] <ajmitch> yes, -1.1 is still greater than -1ubuntu4
[02:27] <somerville32> -1.1ubuntu is higher than -1ubuntu4
[02:27] <joejaxx> ajmitch: when are we supposed to do things like this? https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/160299
[02:27] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 160299 in ubuntu "Please merge carpaltunnel 0.0.9-0.1 from Debian Unstable" [Undecided,New]
[02:28] <joejaxx> ref: to the changelog on that bug
[02:28] <ajmitch> that's just a special case, due to the mix of evil native & debian versioning
[02:29] <joejaxx> oh ok
[02:29] <bddebian> Damnit, I don't know what to name all these stupid packages
[02:29]  * ajmitch isn't seeing what the merge is there, either
[02:29] <TheMuso> ajmitch: are you processing stuff in uus currently?
[02:29] <joejaxx> sajfor which?
[02:29] <joejaxx> gah
[02:29] <joejaxx> ajmitch: for which*
[02:29] <somerville32> Is there any motu teams that I could help out?
[02:30] <TheMuso> somerville32: The MOTU team? :p
[02:30] <somerville32> lol
[02:30] <ajmitch> TheMuso: no
[02:30] <TheMuso> ajmitch: Ok. I'm assuming joejaxx asked for some help with something...
[02:30] <ajmitch> joejaxx: what new version of carpaltunnel was there to merge, given that everything was based on the same version anyway?
[02:30] <somerville32> TheMuso, :P
[02:30] <bddebian> somerville32: Debian Games Team :)
[02:30] <ajmitch> TheMuso: I was just answering some version questions
[02:30] <somerville32> bddebian, Thats a ubuntu team?
[02:31] <joejaxx> ajmitch: it is on merges.ubuntu.com/
[02:31] <bddebian> somerville32: Indirectly ;-)
[02:31] <ajmitch> joejaxx: you trust everything there?
[02:31] <TheMuso> ajmitch: ah ok
[02:31] <somerville32> bddebian, How do I get started?
[02:31] <joejaxx> ajmitch: that is what they said to use :)
[02:31] <joejaxx> as a list of need to be merged packages
[02:31] <ajmitch> joejaxx: carpaltunnel hasn't been touched for 18 months in debian
[02:31] <joejaxx> needed*
[02:31] <ajmitch> there's nothing to merge there
[02:32]  * TheMuso will process uus in a bit.
[02:32] <joejaxx> ok
[02:32] <ajmitch> all you did was add a changelog entry :)
[02:32] <somerville32> Gah. I have a million lp tabs open and they all start with the letter B :(
[02:32] <somerville32> So many bugs, so little time
[02:32] <bddebian> somerville32: Check out http://wiki.debian.org/Games
[02:32] <persia> somerville32: bddebian If you look on the wiki, you'll find that the Debian Games Team officially supercedes the Ubuntu Games Team, and so is a true merged team.
[02:33] <joejaxx> ajmitch: lol so i did that work for nothing?
[02:33] <bddebian> persia: Aye
[02:33] <joejaxx> fun
[02:33] <ajmitch> joejaxx: what work?
[02:33] <joejaxx> lol
[02:33] <joejaxx> ajmitch: working on the package :)
[02:33] <ajmitch> again, what work?
[02:33] <joejaxx> i hope the others i did are not like that
[02:33] <joejaxx> that is what i mean
[02:33] <joejaxx> :(
[02:33] <ajmitch> it's ok, TheMuso will take care of them
[02:34]  * ajmitch isn't touching u-u-s
[02:34] <joejaxx> i just marked the bug invalid
[02:35] <TheMuso> ajmitch: Before, I could have just said, sure I will when I get to it and left it at that. Now that I am an uus admin, I need to actually care about the uus queue, and process it.
[02:35] <TheMuso> :)
[02:35] <ajmitch> TheMuso: exactly
[02:35] <ajmitch> at one point I was a uus admin for some reason
[02:35] <ajmitch> but never did anything, so removed myself
[02:35] <persia> ajmitch: You were active in sponsoring back then :)
[02:35] <ajmitch> persia: back when I knew what I was doing
[02:35] <somerville32> Drinking from a straw is fun.
[02:36]  * persia suspects ajmitch has been drinking the water again
[02:36] <ajmitch> persia: actually I am drinking water right now
[02:36] <LaserJock> I used to do uus :/
[02:36] <somerville32> I would if I was a motu
[02:36] <Burgundavia> u-u-s?
[02:37] <LaserJock> Burgundavia: ubuntu-universe-sponsors
[02:37] <persia> Burgundavia: It's the list of fixed bugs that we need to upload.  Try some :)
[02:37] <Burgundavia> ahh, that
[02:37] <Burgundavia> persia: I am not  MOTU
[02:37] <ajmitch> not yet, he means
[02:37] <ajmitch> even jono wants to go for MOTU
[02:38] <LaserJock> heh
[02:38] <LaserJock> *everybody* wants to go for MOTU
[02:38] <LaserJock> only the insane ones get ther ;-)
[02:38] <LaserJock> *there
[02:38] <ajmitch> s/get/stay/ ;)
[02:38] <slangasek> gibber gibber
[02:39] <LaserJock> ajmitch: hehe, so true
[02:39] <bddebian> heh
[02:39] <persia> Burgundavia: No?  I thought you were from ages and ages and ages ago.  My apologies.
[02:39] <ajmitch> persia: he's been a long-time doc team person, and into marketing
[02:40] <ajmitch> so you've heard plenty from Burgundavia
[02:40] <Burgundavia> persia: I have exactly one upload to the archive: a sync of Inkscape from the hoary days
[02:40]  * LaserJock jumps into a stack trace
[02:40] <Burgundavia> i have been around since the beginning of Ubuntu (not no-name-yet.com, though)
[02:40] <ajmitch> back in the days of mataro
[02:41] <persia> Burgundavia: Right.  it's that you seemed to be an upload person back in Hoary days, and I just assumed that you'd kept at it :)
[02:41] <Burgundavia> indeed, with bags of death and red red love
[02:41] <Burgundavia> I love watching kiko cringe at the thoughts of red red love
[02:41] <ajmitch> sevilla was a good improvement then?
[02:42] <bddebian> red red love?
[02:42] <Burgundavia> barcelona was actually a nicer city and the conferences were different
[02:42] <ScottK2> Would someone who is in UUS, please unsubscribe UUS from Bug 159330
[02:42] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 159330 in courier "Merge courier 0.57.0 from debian unstable" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/159330
[02:43] <persia> ScottK: Got it.  Thanks for pointing it out.
[02:43] <LaserJock> ScottK2: you're not in UUS?
[02:43] <Burgundavia> bddebian: a yogurt drink. Red Red Love was one of the flavours (and the only I remembered)
[02:44] <bddebian> Ah
[02:44] <bddebian> ScottK2:  is awfully active for someone who wasn't going to be so active.. ;-)
[02:44] <LaserJock> bddebian: yeah, well I'm on Ubuntu break so ...
[02:44] <bddebian> :-)
[02:44] <LaserJock> gone, but never absent
[02:45]  * joejaxx wonders how many of his merges did not actually have to be merged
[02:45] <ScottK2> bddebian: Not currently, no.
[02:46] <ScottK2> err LaserJock, not currently, no (part of the not so active)
[02:46] <ajmitch> LaserJock: you were leaving IRC as well, weren't you?
[02:46] <LaserJock> ScottK2: ah, right, I think I did that too
[02:46] <LaserJock> ajmitch: ummm, yeah ... sure ... um
[02:46] <bddebian> somerville32: Do you know offhand of a python package that uses debhelper but uses setup.py?
[02:47] <crimsun> well, b43 in 2.6.24-rc1-git14 certainly beats the pants off bcm43xx, but it oopses if I attempt to reassociate :)
[02:47] <LaserJock> bddebian: that shouldn't be too bad
[02:47] <crimsun> err, -ECHANNEL
[02:47] <LaserJock> crimsun: no kidding, that's like real development sounding
[02:47] <LaserJock> ;-)
[02:47] <ScottK2> bddebian: pysol might do it.
[02:47] <bddebian> LaserJock: Aye but I need an example :-)
[02:47] <LaserJock> bddebian: why?
[02:48] <ScottK2> LaserJock: Because this sincerest form of flattery is plaigerism
[02:48] <bddebian> cause I'm doing one from scratch and I've never done it with a python package before :)
[02:48] <LaserJock> you should just get rid of make and do python setup.py stuff
[02:48] <ScottK2> You're an academic, you should know that ;)
[02:48] <LaserJock> ScottK2: so true
[02:48] <LaserJock> except it doesn't work so well for PhDs
[02:49] <LaserJock> they get kind grumpy about that
[02:49] <bddebian> heh
[02:50] <ajmitch> LaserJock: they call it research
[02:50] <bddebian> ScottK2: Oh, yeah, pysol is nice and clean ;-P
[02:50] <ajmitch> you know, stealing from a few is plagiarism, stealing from many is research
[02:51] <persia> ajmitch: The difference is that the synthesis is usually considered creative.
[02:51] <LaserJock> ajmitch: not exactly
[02:52] <joejaxx> ajmitch: does this look correct now? https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~joejaxx/ubuntu/merges/joystick_20051019-1.1ubuntu1.MERGE.debdiff.txt
[02:53] <ajmitch> joejaxx: depends if the patch has been pushed to debian
[02:53] <joejaxx> ajmitch: would it not be in the new version if it was?
[02:53] <somerville32> bddebian, snowballz
[02:54] <persia> joejaxx: That looks correct, although as ajmitch says, it's good to get the patch back.  Also, there's an annoying issue with Saitek controllers (the two-hand type) not being recognized correctly, if you want to get deeper.
[02:54] <ajmitch> joejaxx: sure, depends on what got into -1.1
[02:54] <persia> ajmitch: The segfault patch can go back, but debian doesn't split out inputattach, so the rest has to stay around for a while...
[02:55] <somerville32> bddebian, "Take command of your army of penguins as you blaze your path to victory! March through snow laden forests to conqueror new frontears and grow your small army."
[02:55] <ajmitch> persia: that's what I assumed
[02:55] <ajmitch> but I'm not in u-u-s, so it's not my position to comment ;)
[02:55] <somerville32> bddebian, It's a snowy world you don't want to miss!
[02:55] <persia> ajmitch: You're still in -dev, so it is your position to comment: you're just not promising to upload stuff.
[02:56] <LaserJock> hmm, I've forgoten how much it sucks having to have a sponsor
[02:56] <ajmitch> persia: I'll have to correct that
[02:56] <TheMuso> LaserJock: yeah, you are lucky enough to have access to the whole archive.
[02:56] <persia> LaserJock: It's not so bad when the queues are working well.  I remember one bit where the average time from my bug attach to upload was <3 minutes (with the winner at 100 seconds)
[02:56] <joejaxx> LaserJock: lol
[02:57]  * TheMuso thinks he knows what ajmitch means when he is going to correct that.
[02:57] <crimsun> ah, yes.  The magical poll(u-u-s) period.
[02:57] <LaserJock> persia: I was actually looking at Debian
[02:57] <ajmitch> TheMuso: you do?
[02:57] <LaserJock> I was pondering actually working on some bugs/packages in Debian
[02:57] <TheMuso> ajmitch: I think I do, yes.
[02:57] <LaserJock> but then all the effort ... is it worth it?
[02:58] <persia> LaserJock: That's not a queue with a good answer.  Send bugs to the BTS, and join colaborative teams if they are open, but sponsored NMUs are destined for a special purgatory.
[02:58] <bddebian> somerville32: :-)
[02:59] <LaserJock> persia: bug attach to upload was < 3 min. ?!?!
[02:59] <LaserJock> how they heck did you manage that?
[02:59] <LaserJock> *the
[02:59] <gene6482> ok, so i decided to grab a program that's been requested to be packaged but i need some help with the rules file, can anyone help?
[02:59]  * somerville32 wants to make the top ten uploader list as a non-motu member.
[02:59] <ajmitch> somerville32: well you've passed me already
[03:00] <persia> LaserJock: Average.  During feisty one of the sponsors wrote a LP poll for new attachments from a shortlist of contributors, and was quick on the uploads for two or three days before finding something better to do.
[03:00] <LaserJock> but how do you even do that
[03:00] <bddebian> somerville32: rules doesn't do setup.py in snowballz
[03:01] <persia> somerville32: Not hard.  If you really want to boost, take a look at the 639 packages not in Debian, update to latest upstream, get them lintian/linda clean, and add watch files.  Hard to compete with statistics like that.
[03:01] <LaserJock> download source package, apply diff, build new source package, pbuilder, test install, upload
[03:01] <LaserJock> all in < 3min?
[03:01] <persia> LaserJock: Well, no.  Some things broke, and we had to fix them.  That's one of the reasons the poll script was stopped: it was too efficient.
[03:01] <somerville32> bddebian, most don't
[03:01] <joejaxx> persia: where is that list at?
[03:02] <ajmitch> LaserJock: he didn't say they were *tested* uploads
[03:02] <ScottK2> bddebian: I don't recall if pysol is fully compliant with current Python policy.  I've just bugfixed it, not tried to upgrade it.
[03:02] <LaserJock> ajmitch: I *assumed* they were :-)
[03:02] <ajmitch> LaserJock: you're in MOTU here
[03:02] <joejaxx> lol
[03:02] <LaserJock> I'm pretty sure I've never uploaded anything I haven't built
[03:02] <persia> joejaxx: http://people.ubuntu.org.au/~fujitsu/motuscience/versions/universe.html, in the "Not in Sid" section.
[03:03] <LaserJock> and fairly sure I've test installed them all as well
[03:03] <persia> Fujitsu: Help!  I don't see what I expect.
[03:03] <joejaxx> persia: it says zero packages LOl
[03:04] <persia> LaserJock: I also do it that way.  I'm very grateful to the speed uploader, but I'm not sure it was best practice then, and I'm sure it isn't now.
[03:04] <persia> joejaxx: Yeah, well, it's currently having a fit.  That's the URL that would normally show it.
[03:04] <ScottK2> LaserJock: The Debian Python Modules and Python Application Packaging Teams are very open to Ubuntu contributors.
[03:04] <somerville32> crimsun, Are you still working on that other package?
[03:04] <gene6482> i'm working with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/95692
[03:04] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 95692 in ubuntu "[needs-packaging] Freenet" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
[03:04] <crimsun> somerville32: err, which?
[03:04] <joejaxx> gene6482: freenet :D
[03:05] <crimsun> somerville32: I've been fighting b43 for a bit, but I haven't been packaging tonight
[03:05] <persia> gene6482: You'll want to assign yourself then, so nobody else tries to do it.
[03:05] <gene6482> persia: ok
[03:05] <somerville32> crimsun, ah. Do you have time to sponsor my upload yet? :]
[03:05] <crimsun> somerville32: the xfce4-session one?
[03:05] <somerville32> crimsun, Aye.
[03:05] <persia> somerville32: There is also ubuntu-main-sponsors :)
[03:05] <somerville32> persia, crimsun is a u-m-s
[03:05] <crimsun> I'll take a look now, just have to update
[03:06] <somerville32> crimsun, k, thank you.
[03:06] <persia> somerville32: Right.  Just not the only one.  Best to use the team.
[03:06] <somerville32> persia, I'm looking to get my packages uploaded quickly as possible so that I'm not trying to get a million uploaded at once.
[03:07] <joejaxx> somerville32: that is why there is a queue :D
[03:07] <persia> somerville32: I understand.  Still, it distracts people who might be doing something else.  Better to use the teams, and people will upload 5-10 packages when they do a sweep.  That way everyone can organise their time well.
[03:07] <ajmitch> a queue is generally better than asking every core-dev every 2 minutes
[03:08] <joejaxx> are there any other packaging i can do other than merges?
[03:08] <joejaxx> :)
[03:08] <crimsun> unmetdeps, bitesize, etc.
[03:08] <crimsun> err, sorry, those being LP tags
[03:09] <joejaxx> all the bitesize ones have debdiffs already
[03:09] <persia> joejaxx: 'packaging' is also often good.
[03:09] <joejaxx> well the ones on /TODO
[03:09] <persia> joejaxx: You might also try 'patch' which often doesn't mean debdiff
[03:11] <persia> joejaxx: /TODO isn't a complete list.  Explore https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=unmetdeps (change the last word for different tags)
[03:11] <joejaxx> ok
[03:12] <gene6482> persia: from what i've read, it's just a java program so is there really a makefile (again, sorry, i'm a noob)
[03:13] <crimsun> somerville32: the translation (*.po) hunks seem unnecessary
[03:14] <somerville32> crimsun, ack
[03:14] <somerville32> crimsun, Do you want me to cut them out or will you?
[03:14] <crimsun> somerville32: I recommend using filterdiff(1)
[03:15] <crimsun> (part of the patchutils package if you don't have it installed)
[03:15] <joejaxx> gene6482: you are packaging it?
[03:18] <gene6482> joejaxx: i'm trying to, but i'm pretty new to this (this is my first packaging), so I downloaded the source, i'm following the instructions in the wiki, but it says there really isn't an install so to speak, just untar into a folder and then run the script to run the program (java required)
[03:20] <pwnguin> gene6482: then the program should probably be modified to run ala lsb if it doesnt already work
[03:21] <jdong> for your first package you chose something Java? :D
[03:22] <gene6482> i didn't know what to pick, if there's something that would be easier to start with, i could take a look at that, i just want to learn, and be able to contribute
[03:27] <jdong> hehe, that was a joke. Java tends to have this notoriety around here of being a big tangled mess of voodoo magic.
[03:28] <ajmitch> that's because it is
[03:29] <Fujitsu> persia: Looking now.
[03:30] <Fujitsu> Ah, it's because ftp-master is down.
[03:30] <Fujitsu> Can't find the removals.
[03:30] <LaserJock> jdong: voodoo magic? I was thinking spawn of the devil but I guess that works
[03:30] <gene6482> well it doesn't really need to be built, just untarred, so would the rules file just tell it to untar and then change the permissions, or am i way off
[03:30] <joejaxx> LaserJock: lol
[03:31] <jdong> so it's a binary?
[03:31] <jdong> by "binary" I mean compiled bytecode.
[03:31]  * jdong can't wait for someone to say Java bytecode != binary so I can punch him :)
[03:31] <Fujitsu> persia: Should be back to normal in a couple of minutes, except for removals not being checked.
[03:32] <LaserJock> jdong: but Java bytecode != binary, what were you thinking? :p
[03:32] <joejaxx> jdong: lol
[03:32] <jdong> haha
[03:32] <ajmitch> jdong: he's right, you know
[03:32] <jdong> ajmitch: lol yes he is, which is why I'm irritated ;-)
[03:33] <jdong> but for the point of the question I was raising, you guys know what I meant ;-)
[03:33] <LaserJock> woah, only one merge with my name on it
[03:33] <jdong> only I get to point out superfluous technicalities!
[03:33] <gene6482> i downloaded the wrong thing (i'm an idiot) i'll try something else i guess
[03:34] <crimsun> for computer geeks, there are no superfluous technicalities!
[03:34] <imbrandon> wow the house is trying to impeach the vp ...
[03:34] <joejaxx> imbrandon: ? lol
[03:34] <joejaxx> imbrandon: link?
[03:34] <ajmitch> imbrandon: this is news? or something from about 3 years ago that's been dragged up on digg yet again?
[03:35] <imbrandon> http://www.pensitoreview.com/2007/11/05/house-to-vote-on-cheney-impeachment/
[03:35] <LaserJock> he hasn't even shot anybody lately ;-)
[03:35] <ajmitch> so the news from 3 years ago is going to a vote, fun
[03:35] <jdong> crimsun: amen to that :)
[03:36] <imbrandon> tomarrows the vote, i doubt it will fly , as much as i would like to see the current administration out , 7 years into a term isnt the time to start
[03:36]  * LaserJock yells "4 more years!" and does a merge
[03:36] <imbrandon> lol
[03:38] <imbrandon> ouch debian archive problems too looks like, fun fun fun day
[03:39] <tonyyarusso> Is there anything real being voted on this time around?
[03:39] <tonyyarusso> Only thing I've seen is school board....
[03:39]  * ajmitch doesn't particularly care about it :)
[03:40] <nand`> hi!
[03:41] <joejaxx> hi
[03:41] <nand`> third straight REVU day!
[03:41] <nand`> (from my timezone point of view)
[03:42] <nand`> I request a review of my package ike please : http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=ike
[03:43] <nand`> (apart the copyright notices issue)
[03:43] <bddebian> Ah ha, the POS builds.  I have no idea if it is actually "right" though :-)
[03:44] <somerville32> bddebian, Is that what you were trying to get setup.py and rules working together?
[03:44] <bddebian> somerville32: Aye
[03:45] <bddebian> With python-support
[03:45] <somerville32> bddebian, I'll have to take a look
[03:45]  * LaserJock notes he has not a single cookie in the house
[03:45] <LaserJock> unless of course you count the virtual kind
[03:45] <LaserJock> which aren't any good to eat
[03:45] <crimsun> bug 160381
[03:45] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 160381 in gnump3d "uh" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160381
[03:45] <joejaxx> crimsun: lol
[03:46] <crimsun> /brilliant/ summary.
[03:46] <Fujitsu> crimsun: I agree.
[03:50] <gene6482> i'm going to try something else
[03:55] <imbrandon> anyone here got a quick and dirty for importing a svn co into a bzr branch ? isnt there a bzr svn-import svn://......
[03:55] <persia> gene6482: Rather than starting with a new package, I'd suggest starting with a bugfix.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize might have some that are pretty good to start.
[03:56] <LaserJock> imbrandon: I thought bzr-svn did that
[03:56] <LaserJock> maybe not
[03:56] <imbrandon> it might, i havent tried it /me looks
[03:56] <LaserJock> anybody know if seb128 is ok with people merging Gnome stuff?
[03:57] <persia> LaserJock: Ask in #ubuntu-desktop
[03:57] <persia> Fujitsu: Thanks.  Will it start tracking removals again once Debian is sorted again?
[03:58] <gene6482> well i'll have to try again later, i have to go now, but thanks or the help, it certainly helps build even more respect for you guys, i kind of took all the packaging for granted.  I think i'll have to learn more to get started, but it seems that with people like you around i should be able to contribute
[03:59] <persia> joejaxx, somerville32: In case you didn't guess from context, http://people.ubuntu.org.au/~fujitsu/motuscience/versions/universe.html is back: the "Not in Sid" list is likely a good set of candidates for a quick upstream update (although some should be dropped), if you want to boost your upload count.  Just make sure you get them lintian/linda clean and add watch files if they are missing.
[03:59] <somerville32> persia, Thanks
[03:59] <joejaxx> persia: thanks
[04:01] <persia> Just remember to check the PTS entry: some of those were once in Debian, or are in experimental, and so need special care: the best targets are the ones that were never in Debian.
[04:01] <somerville32> Can someone please review my package (it is an easy one to review and only needs one advocate): http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=pyneighborhood
[04:01] <joejaxx> lol
[04:01] <joejaxx> wait
[04:01] <persia> somerville32: Didn't that get in for gutsy?  Why does it need a REVU?
[04:02] <joejaxx> that application is not in gutsy?
[04:02] <joejaxx> somerville32: i thought that was in already
[04:02] <minghua> Hmm.  http://people.ubuntu.org.au/~fujitsu/motuscience/versions/universe.html is empty for me.
[04:02] <somerville32> persia, ubuntu2
[04:02] <joejaxx> minghua: refresh
[04:02] <joejaxx> :)
[04:02] <somerville32> Hence why it only needs one advocate
[04:03] <persia> somerville32: That just looks like a patch to me: why not stick a debdiff in a bug, and add it to the sponsors queue?
[04:03] <somerville32> persia, I suppose I could that but I figured someone could do it real quick :P
[04:04] <TheMuso> somerville32: I would debdiff and add to queue. The queue will be processed soon. I intend to get around to it.
[04:04] <persia> somerville32: REVU isn't the right place for it, and it's harder to review and update from REVU, as one has to spend more time to identify the differences.  A bug is better.
[04:04]  * persia archives pyneighborhood as not-for-REVU
[04:04] <somerville32> persia, thanks
[04:05] <persia> Err..  Rather, I can't archive right now, so I don't.  I'll hide it later if nobody else hides it first.
[04:05] <TheMuso> persia: I'll do it.
[04:05] <persia> TheMuso: Thanks.
[04:05] <somerville32> I hate using apt* - it brinngs my computer to a halt :(
[04:07] <somerville32> bddebian, wb :)
[04:07] <TheMuso> persia: done
[04:08] <bddebian2> @#%#%
[04:09] <persia> bddebian: What keyboard layout is that?  I could understand @#$%^ or "#$%&, but @#%#% just seems odd.
[04:10] <bddebian> persia: That was random qwerty swearing :-)
[04:10] <Fujitsu> persia: Only once I poke it, but I'll do so once I see the email.
[04:11]  * persia suspects US style pc-104
[04:11] <bddebian> OK, is section python-libs valid or should it be just python?
[04:11] <bddebian> persia: Oh, aye
[04:11] <persia> Fujitsu: OK.  Thanks.
[04:11] <persia> bddebian: Ask lintian, but I'd suggest python
[04:11] <LaserJock> ajmitch: -desktop reminds me that I was working on a MOTU logo
[04:12] <LaserJock> should have some sort of castle greyskull logo for MC
[04:12] <persia> LaserJock: Can we actually do anything with CG?  I thought that was extra-non-free., or would this be considered satire?
[04:13] <LaserJock> well, "similar"
[04:13] <LaserJock> for the MOTU I've got a sword thingy
[04:13] <LaserJock> trying to stick with the theme
[04:14] <Fujitsu> LaserJock: MOTU SWAT has a sword.
[04:14]  * persia likes logos, and wants more LP badges
[04:15] <persia> Fujitsu: What does MOTU SWAT do?  (e.g. what would I be committing to if I wanted the badge)
[04:15] <joejaxx> persia: universe security
[04:16] <persia> Hmmm....  Now I need to do cost/benefit, as it's not clear...
[04:16] <Fujitsu> Hahah.
[04:16] <joejaxx> persia: lol
[04:16] <superm1> persia, you could always steal their badge and make your own team with the same badge :)
[04:16] <ajmitch> you have to do stuff to be in a team?
[04:17] <persia> superm1: I've seen a couple people do that, but I don't approve of the practice.
[04:17] <persia> ajmitch: Only if your nick isn't "ajmitch"
[04:17] <superm1> woah really people actually do that?
[04:17] <superm1> i was just kidding, seems rather unethical
[04:17] <ajmitch> persia: it's really why I should leave some more teams
[04:17] <persia> superm1: Go trolling for people with > 20 badges - some of the teams are rather poorly defined...
[04:17]  * ajmitch cut down on a few
[04:18]  * persia suspects ajmitch will end up in all the teams anyway due to teams belonging to teams
[04:18] <ajmitch> it won't happen
[04:18] <imbrandon> heh
[04:18]  * Hobbsee has lots of teams.
[04:19]  * Hobbsee likes teams.
[04:19] <Hobbsee> oooh, shiny
[04:19] <joejaxx> Hobbsee: lololol
[04:19] <joejaxx> Hobbsee: Fujitsu need to pay you royalties
[04:19] <joejaxx> lol
[04:19]  * ajmitch finds a shiny pocket watch & dangles it in front of Hobbsee
[04:19] <Fujitsu> joejaxx: So I do, so I do.
[04:19] <Hobbsee> oh exelent
[04:19]  * Hobbsee puts her hand out
[04:19]  * Fujitsu wonders why all the new ~motu members are eternal.
[04:19] <Hobbsee> hand 'em over, Fujitsu :)
[04:20] <joejaxx> Fujitsu: new ~motu members?
[04:20] <persia> Fujitsu: To prevent people from leaving, obviously...
[04:20]  * ajmitch is an indirect motu member
[04:21] <superm1> Fujitsu, assumingly so that we are allowed to take breaks?
[04:21] <superm1> and come back without losing status
[04:21]  * ajmitch thinks that everyone should just get an expiry date
[04:22] <persia> superm1: It's not about status, it's about activity.  If you take a break, and your memship expires, and you don't get around to touching launchpad to restore it, a quick mail to MOTU Council should have it back in a day or so.
[04:22]  * persia agrees
[04:22] <superm1> well i am an eternal member, so i dont have to worry :)
[04:23] <Fujitsu> Shouldn't we be operating on the principle of least privilege?
[04:23] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: depends
[04:23] <persia> Fujitsu: Absolutely.  I'd even suggest the timeframe should be short: I would expect to need an ACK when I return from my times away (and they don't tend to be that long, comparatively)
[04:24] <persia> Hobbsee: Depends on?  Most privileges for you, and least for everyone else (except ajmitch, who should be stapled to privileges)? :)
[04:24] <Hobbsee> :P
[04:24] <Hobbsee> dpeneds on how hard it is to get them back
[04:24] <Fujitsu> We have members of ~motu that I've never even heard of.;
[04:24] <Hobbsee> see teh whole \sh fiasco.
[04:25] <joejaxx> is \sh around?
[04:25] <joejaxx> he has some merges i wanted to ask him about
[04:25] <Hobbsee> dont think so
[04:25] <persia> Hobbsee: Yes, I know, it's a repeating cycle.  If someone wants to help, and previously had access, MC will likely not oppose without a good reason.
[04:25] <ajmitch> persia: why should I?
[04:25] <Hobbsee> persia: except if someone else has nicked the key, gotten the passphrase, and is now pretending to be \sh
[04:26] <persia> Hobbsee: HRm.  That's true, but I'd think unlikely.
[04:26] <Hobbsee> tech board thought that was quite a risk
[04:26] <LaserJock> so my first stab at a logo is at http://laserjock.us/files/ubuntu/motu_logo.png
[04:26] <Fujitsu> Did they?
[04:27] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: oh yes
[04:27] <persia> ajmitch: Because you've done lots of good work, and despite your persistent claims that you do nothiing, you tend to provide assistance to those who need it.  Further, you are a repository of living MOTU history, and an example to us all.
[04:27] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: When did it come up?
[04:27] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: ages ago.  dont remember exactly
[04:27] <ajmitch> persia: a repository of history is a nice way of saying a fossil ;)
[04:27] <joejaxx> ajmitch: lol
[04:27] <imbrandon> lol
[04:27] <joejaxx> ajmitch: a prized fossil :D
[04:27] <persia> Hobbsee: I don't see how it's more of a risk with quick expiry than with no expiry.  With no expiry, we're inviting the same issue without even the quick MC check.
[04:28] <Hobbsee> persia: true, that.
[04:28] <Fujitsu> persia: Right, that's what I thought.
[04:28] <superm1> joejaxx, as per discussion at UDS, are they quick/shorter merges?
[04:28] <joejaxx> superm1: i am sorry?
[04:28] <superm1> \sh's merges
[04:28] <superm1> that you wanted to ask about
[04:28] <persia> ajmitch: Right.  An extremely valuable item for which people will queue for hours for the benefit of proximity.
[04:28] <Fujitsu> Having no expiry is just asking for trouble. The team will grow indefinitely and who knows how many compromised people we might have.
[04:28] <joejaxx> oh i do not know
[04:28] <joejaxx> they just looked interesting
[04:29] <joejaxx> normally i do the merge then ask to upload to lp
[04:29] <ajmitch> persia: your attempts at flattery disturb me
[04:29] <superm1> joejaxx, well from the motu talk we had i thought the consensus was that if its a shorter merge, that debian/changelog doesn't appear to have someone tied down to, have at it
[04:29] <ajmitch> they have the whiff of sarcasm
[04:29] <persia> It's not just compromised members, but also people who are completely not in touch, who may no longer have an interest, yet remain in our developer count.
[04:29] <joejaxx> superm1: oh ok
[04:29] <persia> ajmitch: Sorry.  I'm not very good at it.
[04:29]  * ajmitch checks the team settings
[04:30] <Fujitsu> persia: Right, that too.
[04:30] <Fujitsu> I didn't see anybody making a decision that members should no longer expire. It just... happened.
[04:30]  * persia wants accurate counts of developers and contributors to establish baseline metrics towards actually maintaining everything.
[04:30] <LaserJock> that's weird
[04:31] <ajmitch> it is strange
[04:31] <persia> Fujitsu: Didn't it happen around the time the new MOTU Council procedure was started?  Who is the first indefinite member?
[04:31] <Fujitsu> persia: It was at that time, yes.
[04:31] <Fujitsu> It's hard to say who it was, because LP sucks and the joining dates are wrong.
[04:32]  * persia suspects the TB, and the switch back & forth between -dev and -motu
[04:32] <persia> Err. ~ubuntu-dev and ~motu
[04:32] <Fujitsu> It was late March that the eternal members started being added.
[04:33] <Fujitsu> I guess it could just be that no default expiry date was set, and they didn't bother to check.
[04:33] <Fujitsu> (they == TB)
[04:33] <TheMuso> So what was done when Jonathan Patric Davis was allowed back?
[04:33] <persia> Hmm...  I was away then, so don't remember the discussion, but was one of the team shifts associated with the same time period?
[04:34] <persia> TheMuso: "allowed"?
[04:34] <TheMuso> persia: i.e he was welcomed back into MOTU, with upload rights, etc.
[04:34] <Fujitsu> persia: It was around that time - I suspect that nobody ever set a default expiry on ~motu.
[04:34] <ajmitch> back in a bit
[04:34] <Fujitsu> Whereas ~ubuntu-dev always had it set to 2 years.
[04:34] <persia> TheMuso: Ah.  Good.  I like "welcomed".  "allowed" made me think there was an issue in the past.  I thought that was a good example of how things should be done.
[04:35] <TheMuso> persia: But I ask because I didn't know how he was welcomed back, in that was he asked anything, etc.
[04:35] <persia> Fujitsu: I don't suppose you'd like to poke the MC to poke the TB?  I may lose indefinite status, but I think it would be better for all.
[04:36] <persia> TheMuso: There was an email requesting access be restored, presumably validated with private communication with MC members, and access was granted.
[04:36] <TheMuso> persia: Right.
[04:36] <Fujitsu> persia: MC seems to have admin rights now, anyway
[04:37] <persia> TheMuso: As I understand it, the procedure is the same as for anyone wanting to join MOTU, just easier if you've already been MOTU.
[04:37] <Fujitsu> Nobody around to poke at the moment, it would seem.
[04:37] <persia> Fujitsu: That makes it easier (poking via email might work)
[04:37] <Fujitsu> persia: It probably would, yes.
[04:38] <persia> Fujitsu: Also raises the issue publically, etc.  Also makes the whole grumble about inactive developers reduce due to upcoming expiration.
[04:40] <joejaxx> grr
[04:40] <TheMuso> Netsplits galore.
[04:40] <joejaxx> i never get this
[04:40] <joejaxx> hth does freenode have so many netsplits?
[04:40] <somerville32> love.
[04:41] <persia> joejaxx: Lots of servers.
[04:41] <joejaxx> sure :)
[04:41] <joejaxx> but every 5-10 minutes at random times? lol
[04:41] <joejaxx> maybe it is a networking issue
[04:41] <pwnguin> who runs freenode?
[04:41] <Hobbsee> not usually this bad
[04:41] <LaserJock> hmm
[04:42] <LaserJock> ignoring joins/parts seems to work
[04:42] <imbrandon> pwnguin, pdpc
[04:42] <imbrandon> yea joins/parts on ignore works great
[04:43] <imbrandon> pwnguin, http://freenode.net/pdpc.shtml
[04:43]  * persia notes that ignoring joins/parts means that you may not know who is in your broadcast spce
[04:43] <Fujitsu> I never ignore them unless in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-release-party, really.
[04:44] <imbrandon> persia, as long as you adhear to the CoC then i dont mind whom hears what i have to type :)
[04:44] <imbrandon> and if i need someone specificly i use their name
[04:44] <LaserJock> I have to ignore them ATM cause I keep checking on channels if I don't ;-)
[04:44] <persia> imbrandon: When the net is splitting, I tend to wait until I have >70% before saying anything worthwhile.  Perhaps this is the opposite to your concern.
[04:44] <somerville32> As long as persia adheres to the COC, imbrandon doesn't mind who hears what he has to type. hmm..
[04:44] <imbrandon> the only time i dont have them turned off is when i wear +T
[04:45]  * tonyyarusso looks that up
[04:45] <persia> LaserJock: Can you not set your channel status to ignore joins/parts whilst still displaying them?
[04:45] <pwnguin> but, without join/parts, #ubuntu-laptop would be dead
[04:45] <Fujitsu> pwnguin: Hahah.
[04:45] <somerville32> lol
[04:45] <imbrandon> tonyyarusso, it makes me showup on /stats p , e.g. Freenode Staffer
[04:45] <LaserJock> persia: I suppose so yes, I never thought of that actually
[04:45] <Fujitsu> Sounds like #ubuntu-science or #ubuntuwire or #ubuntu-directory.
[04:45] <Fujitsu> Or #ubuntu-hardened
[04:46] <tonyyarusso> imbrandon: ... ANOTHER Ubuntu person that's FN staff?  nice.
[04:46] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, hehe ubuntuwire is used, only if rarely :)
[04:46] <imbrandon> tonyyarusso, i have been a year or so now, dunno whom else you are speaking of
[04:47] <tonyyarusso> imbrandon: nalioth, jenda, ompaul, erm I think there's another
[04:47] <imbrandon> ro*b
[04:47] <tonyyarusso> yeah
[04:47] <tonyyarusso> We kinda took over :P
[04:47] <pwnguin> well, debian ran for oftc
[04:48] <imbrandon> and i predate them cept nali*oth and ro*b
[04:48] <imbrandon> :)
[04:49] <somerville32> I hate how firefox steals focus
[04:50] <Hobbsee> in kde, you can tell it to stop
[04:50] <Hobbsee> you may bea ble to with compiz, too
[04:50] <Fujitsu> I hate how Firefox.
[04:50] <joejaxx> lol
[04:51] <pwnguin> pdpc operates freenode, but who hosts it?
[04:51] <LaserJock> hmm, odd, I just saw a prostate medicine commercial that said women shouldn't take it ...
[04:51] <tonyyarusso> pwnguin: /motd
[04:51] <imbrandon> hosts what? each server is hosted by diffrent groups all root controled by freenode
[04:52] <imbrandon> each one is in the motd
[04:52] <pwnguin> true
[04:52] <minghua> LaserJock: seems a sound advice to me. :-)
[04:52] <pwnguin> guess i cant blame it on lance then
[04:52] <StevenK> LaserJock: That isn't odd.
[04:52] <pwnguin> though he was willing to take credit
[04:53] <tritium> LaserJock: crap, I just gave my wife some...
[04:53] <imbrandon> lol
[04:53] <pwnguin> actually, i think his group runs zelazny and niven
[04:54] <LaserJock> tritium!!
[04:54] <imbrandon> well they are all "run" by freenode staff, if you donate a server you give them root, you only provide hardware and connection
[04:54] <imbrandon> pwnguin, ^^
[04:54] <tritium> Hi LaserJock :)
[04:55]  * TheMuso wonders what is now responsible for detecting an eject button press from within gnome.
[04:59]  * ajmitch returns
[05:06] <somerville32> Grr... this is making me angry
[05:06] <somerville32> pbuilder is looking for libgpg-error-dev_1.4-2ubuntu2_i386.deb when only libgpg-error-dev_1.4-2ubuntu1_i386.deb exists.
[05:06] <Fujitsu> somerville32: pbuilder update?
[05:07] <Fujitsu> pbuilder --kill-your-mirror-for-being-out-of-date?
[05:07] <somerville32> I use a.u.c
[05:08] <persia> somerville32: That's often not ideal, as it gets refreshed far too often, and so is prone to skew.  If you don't need the updates from the last 10 minutes, using a normal daily or twice-daily mirror tends to be more reliable.
[05:09] <persia> (for some value of 10 minutes which is actually close to 103 for complicated reasons, but related to an hourly queue)
[05:09] <somerville32> :]
[05:42] <TheMuso> somerville32: Any reason why you mentioned the bug more than once in the changelog, and why did you create another bug just for that? You should have added the debdiff to the existing bug, and subscribed uus.
[05:43] <TheMuso> somerville32: So for now, I suggest you re-upload the diff, with both bugs included in the changelog, so they both get closed.
[05:43] <TheMuso> Will document in the bug.
[05:43] <somerville32> TheMuso, Could you specify what you're talking about? :]
[05:43] <TheMuso> bug 160388
[05:43] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 160388 in pyneighborhood "RFS: pyneighborhood (universe)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160388
[05:44]  * persia agrees that it belongs in bug #107463: even just if users want to test an update locally before the buildds are done
[05:44] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 107463 in pyneighborhood "Decription appearing in Add/Remove applications is ridiculous" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/107463
[05:45] <somerville32> TheMuso, I always create a new bug. I don't want people subscribed to the bug to get mail in their inbox about it.
[05:45] <persia> somerville32: That's the reason they subscribed to the bug.  They want to see the fix (often including patches)
[05:45] <minghua> somerville32: Why don't you want that?
[05:45] <somerville32> Because people have complained to me before
[05:46] <persia> somerville32: About adding a patch to a bug?  Which bug?
[05:46]  * persia prepares to complain back, only more so
[05:46] <somerville32> persia, I can't remember specifically - but I know it has happened atleast twice.
[05:46] <somerville32> Once by an end-user and the other time by the software maintainer
[05:46]  * minghua complains too, if we are counting the numbers to make decisions.
[05:47] <persia> somerville32: Well, if it happens again, please let me know.  That's part of the purpose of bugs, and as long as your patch is good, they should be relaxed.  If they are complaining about the patch, that's just normal feedback.
[05:47] <persia> minghua: Which are you complaining about?
[05:47]  * Hobbsee complains in general
[05:48] <somerville32> persia, They were complaining about the e-mails not the patch
[05:48]  * persia grumbles at hobbsee
[05:48] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: how could you?
[05:48] <minghua> persia: Heh.  Complaining about opening new bugs for patches.  I hope we are not really counting numbers.
[05:48] <persia> somerville32: Ah.  That's just a misunderstanding on their part then.
[05:48] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: easily.
[05:48] <ajmitch> aw
[05:48] <persia> minghua: Well, more people tends to indicate general consensus, even in the presence of vocal dissenters.
[05:49] <somerville32> What is the correct syntax for closing bugs via changelog?
[05:49]  * minghua has never been sure about the concept of "general consensus".
[05:50] <persia> somerville32: (LP: #nnnnnn) works, but I forget the official rules.
[05:50] <Hobbsee> lp: #nnnn is the required part
[05:50] <TheMuso_> gah brownout.
[05:50] <Hobbsee> greetings, TheMuso_
[05:51] <somerville32> TheMuso_, I'll remember to close them and noting the bug number twice is rather trivial.
[05:51] <persia> somerville32: disagreeing with sponsors isn't the best way to get more sponsored...
[05:52] <somerville32> persia, I think they should be mature enough to be able to discuss their opinion.
[05:58] <bddebian> Gnight folks
[05:58] <persia> Good night bddebian
[05:58] <somerville32> night bdmurray
[05:59] <somerville32> erm
[05:59]  * persia is slow
[05:59] <somerville32> persia, What does this mean?:
[05:59] <somerville32> W: cheese: copyright-lists-upstream-authors-with-dh_make-boilerplate
[06:00] <somerville32> nvm
[06:00] <somerville32> :)
[06:00] <minghua> lintian -i is always your friend.
[06:00]  * somerville32 nods.
[06:00] <persia> somerville32: It means that you didn't change "Author(s)" to either "Author" or "Authors" depending on the actual facts.  Calling with arguments -iIv will explain in detail.
[06:02] <imbrandon> StevenK, ping
[06:03]  * persia thinks it's nighttime there
[06:03] <Hobbsee> likely asleep
[06:03] <imbrandon> yea i forgot he was in boston
[06:03] <TheMuso> Just after midnight.
[06:03] <TheMuso> in Boston.
[06:04] <imbrandon> err should be just after 1am there iirc
[06:04] <TheMuso> Yep.
[06:04] <imbrandon> midnight here
[06:05] <persia> imbrandon: Just out of curiosity (and feel free not to answer), do you not sleep, or sleep days?
[06:06] <somerville32> How do I install man page with cdbs?
[06:06] <persia> somerville32: Use debian/package.manpages
[06:06] <persia> dh_installman gets called, so man that for details
[06:06] <imbrandon> persia, i normaly sleep 7am to midday localtime
[06:06] <imbrandon> or close to it
[06:07] <persia> imbrandon: That makes sense.  You just seem to be much closer to our timezone than most people in your geographical region :)
[06:07] <imbrandon> :)
[06:07] <somerville32> Shortly after 2am here
[06:11]  * TheMuso thinks Joe's merges will be gotten through rather quickly, due to him likely forgetting to do the same thing in all merges.
[06:12] <somerville32> TheMuso, Whats that?
[06:12] <imbrandon> ok color me stupid but what is the diff between ARM ARMel ARM9 ARM12 XScale etc ? i've been googling for a few and dont seem to have google-foo tonight
[06:13] <TheMuso> somerville32: I am processing the sponsors queue, and a merge changelog entry does not have the maintainer field change mentioned in the entry.
[06:14] <persia> imbrandon: ARMN (e.g. ARM7, ARM9, etc.) indicates the ARM revision (kinda like Pentium 2 vs. Pentium 3, only not)
[06:15] <imbrandon> i'm guesssing the ARM{,el} is like MIPS{,el} and something to do with endian's ?
[06:15] <persia> XScale was Intel's branding of their series of ARM cores (now sold to Marvell?), which actually implemented several different ARM designs, depending on the XScale model number, and the more recent XScales are actually Intel designs that happen to execute the same instruction set, rather than actually being ARM.
[06:17] <persia> ARMel is a little funny: most ARM cores can handle either big-endian or little-endian, depending on the application code, and some can switch while processing an instruction stream.  ARMel is an artificial architecture to indicate little-endian ARM code, but doesn't really correspond to specific hardware in most cases (although it often corresponds to external software)
[06:18] <persia> Of course, all that could be wrong, as I'm not actually an expert on processor nomenclature.
[06:18] <imbrandon> persia, how compatable are these though, e.g. if i setup a buildd on a ARM12 , could the resulting binary run on a ARM9 or XScale ?
[06:19] <imbrandon> or will there have to be hella diffrent buildd env's
[06:19] <imbrandon> i mean like in x86 you can always go lowest common denom, eg 386
[06:19] <imbrandon> or some such
[06:20] <persia> imbrandon: Depends on your compiler flags, and optimisations.  That's like asking me if you compile something on a Core 2 Duo, could the resulting binary run on a Pentium III or Athlon XP
[06:20] <imbrandon> true, i ment more so like compiling for a generic 386 on core2 would still run on a p2
[06:20] <imbrandon> e.g that there is some generic to it
[06:21] <persia> imbrandon: I wouldn't compile for less than ARM7, as there's not much product left.  A few ARM5 cores are around, but increasingly less.
[06:21] <persia> imbrandon: Right.  With the right set of flags, you can create a portable binary.  You just need to get the flags right (and I can't really help with that)
[06:22] <imbrandon> np, i can get past the learning curve as long as i know i'm not chasing a pipe dream
[06:23] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: Some people don't mention the change, which I think is probably OK.
[06:23] <persia> imbrandon: I've a couple XScale machines around (PXA255 and PXA265), so would be happy to test for that side of things :)
[06:23] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: Like, we don't mention `updated changelog' in the changelog, as it's an implied change.
[06:23] <imbrandon> persia, cool
[06:23] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: Hmm yeah I guess, but its done more often than not.
[06:23] <imbrandon> TheMuso, probably for filler :)
[06:24]  * somerville32 nods
[06:24] <persia> Fujitsu: If we're not to keep it, we should have a general statement to that effect, and drop them all.  Having it be inconsistent doesn't really appeal to me.
[06:24]  * TheMuso agrees with persia
[06:24] <somerville32> We're ubuntu, not debian :P
[06:24] <Fujitsu> persia: Agreed.
[06:25] <imbrandon> debian is inconsistant? never
[06:25] <somerville32> lol
[06:25]  * Hobbsee blogs.
[06:25]  * imbrandon faints
[06:26] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Woah, what do you think you are doing?
[06:26] <Hobbsee> haha
[06:26] <Hobbsee> http://community.livejournal.com/coworkers_suck/309678.html
[06:26] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: attempting to get rid of frustration before i go in there, and deal with said coworker.
[06:28] <somerville32> hehe
[06:29]  * Hobbsee will probably *also* mentoin said coworker to boss.
[06:30] <Hobbsee> (again)
[06:30] <somerville32> Hobbsee, Is it a he or she?
[06:30] <somerville32> You use two different pronouns
[06:30] <Hobbsee> she
[06:30] <somerville32> (or two different genders)
[06:30] <Hobbsee> first is a she, boss is a he
[06:31] <somerville32> So you're your bosses supervisor? lol
[06:31]  * Hobbsee doesnt see where she makes a male reference.
[06:31] <somerville32> Point 5 under "If I'm your supervisor"
[06:31] <Hobbsee> sorry, s/boss/store manager/
[06:31] <somerville32> "Start chatting to your friend from another store, on his break, for half an hour"
[06:31] <Hobbsee> 5.  Start chatting to your friend from another store, on his break, for half an hour
[06:31] <Hobbsee> the friend is mail
[06:31]  * Hobbsee edits
[06:31] <Hobbsee> er,male
[06:31] <somerville32> Ah.
[06:33] <somerville32> Hobbsee, Use your pointy stick of doom.
[06:33] <imbrandon> wow looking at ARM Evaulation boards i found a place that makes/sells ISA ( Yes ISA ) USB Cards
[06:33] <LaserJock> cool
[06:33] <persia> imbrandon: EISA just takes too much power :)
[06:33] <somerville32> I'm holding a USB thinger that has little ports that apparently plug into the motherboard
[06:33] <LaserJock> my boss finally gave up like a year ago on insisting that we got computers with ISA slots
[06:33] <imbrandon> lol
[06:34] <TheMuso> heh
[06:34] <imbrandon> hehe
[06:34] <imbrandon> http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/EB1161ISA/
[06:34] <persia> LaserJock: What were you using them for?  low-bandwidth data collection?  Vintage analog synthesizers?
[06:34] <LaserJock> when you have easily $10k invested in ISA boards it's no fun to switch
[06:35] <LaserJock> persia: *all* of our data collection boards were ISA
[06:35] <LaserJock> then I told him we weren't going to be able to get machines to run them
[06:35] <LaserJock> so we got one PCI
[06:35]  * persia likes ISA for data collection: very easy protocol (lousy for things like disk controllers, video controllers, etc.)
[06:35] <LaserJock> now everything is PCI-E
[06:35] <LaserJock> so I got a USB one last time
[06:36] <Hobbsee> somerville32: i wish.
[06:36] <LaserJock> but the USB is a bit slow for data collection it seems
[06:36] <LaserJock> took me $500 to figure that out though ;-)
[06:36] <somerville32> no!! My stupid build that took me 30 minutes dies in the last phase :/
[06:37] <imbrandon> LaserJock, firewire ?
[06:37] <LaserJock> imbrandon: I've never used it
[06:37] <LaserJock> I've got a lab full of macs and we've never used firewire :-)
[06:38] <imbrandon> heh
[06:38] <jdong> somerville32: ouch, for huge builds like that I liked to first test in a pbuilder login and use dpkg-buildpackage -nc generously ;-)
[06:38] <ajmitch> somerville32: only 30 minutes?
[06:38] <imbrandon> LaserJock,  i used it for the first time reciently to get data ( recorded TV ) off my DVR from comcast :)
[06:38] <jdong> and do a final build once I'm confident it'll work in a real pbuilder
[06:38] <somerville32> dh_installman -pcheese
[06:38] <somerville32> cheese.1: No such file or directory at /usr/bin/dh_installman line 120.
[06:39] <somerville32> I don't understand why it failed.
[06:39] <somerville32> oh wait
[06:39] <somerville32> I do
[06:39] <somerville32> I only put cheese.1 in the manpages file. I should have put debian/cheese.1
[06:39] <persia> imbrandon: firewire isn't good for data collection unless you have a dedicated data collection box that then negotiates packet transfer.  It's fast, but lots of overhead.
[06:39] <imbrandon> somerville32, 30 minutes isnt a terrible build :)
[06:39] <somerville32> imbrandon, I have a 333mhz and building slows my computer now pretty bad
[06:40] <somerville32> *down
[06:40] <imbrandon> somerville32, i'm on a p200 :)
[06:40] <somerville32> imbrandon, Right now?
[06:40] <imbrandon> my "fast" box is a powerpc 333 with 96mb ram
[06:40] <imbrandon> yes right now
[06:40] <LaserJock> persia: well, we use GPIB for all data collection
[06:40] <somerville32> What OS are you using?
[06:40] <imbrandon> gutsy
[06:41] <somerville32> gnome?
[06:41] <imbrandon> fluxbox
[06:41] <imbrandon> + kde apps
[06:41] <LaserJock> hehe, gnome ... hehe
[06:41]  * somerville32 was hoping imbrandon has the magic codes to make gnome run fast.
[06:41] <somerville32> *had
[06:41] <imbrandon> with an email address like<EMAIL_ADDRESS>i dont use gnome terribly much
[06:42] <somerville32> I wish we had @xubuntu.org
[06:42] <somerville32> I filed a ticket months ago
[06:42] <somerville32> no reply
[06:42] <TheMuso> somerville32: I'll modify the changelog accordingly for your upload now, but please take note of what I said earlier.
[06:42] <imbrandon> send a request to rt@
[06:42] <somerville32> imbrandon, I did.
[06:42] <somerville32> TheMuso, Ok. Thank you.
[06:42] <TheMuso> np
[06:43] <LaserJock> somerville32: yeah, sometimes things get lost in RT
[06:43] <somerville32> I'll poke someone sooner or later.
[06:43] <persia> LaserJock: And USB can't handle that?
[06:44] <LaserJock> persia: well, it seems to be slower than our PCI card
[06:44] <LaserJock> I don't know if it's too slow yet
[06:44] <somerville32> PCI has more bandwidth than USB, eh?
[06:44] <LaserJock> we're having to rewrite all the darn LabView crap
[06:44] <LaserJock> to see if it's software or hardware limited
[06:45] <LaserJock> but we have to do everything at 10Hz
[06:45] <LaserJock> and right now I think we're at about 5Hz
[06:45] <persia> LaserJock: I suspect you've got a funny implementation.  Most newer USB chips shouldn't have a problem with 8MB/sec (64Mbit/sec), unless your're multiplexing your collection lines.
[06:46] <LaserJock> not sure
[06:46] <persia> somerville32: Doesn't matter too much: IEEE_488.1 isn't that fast.
[06:46]  * somerville32 nods.
[06:46] <LaserJock> persia: GPIB is da bomb ;-)
[06:46] <LaserJock> or so my boss says ;-)
[06:46] <LaserJock> personally I think it's a big pain in the butt
[06:47] <imbrandon> persia, the fastest ATX ARM board i seem to find is 233Mhz, any ideas on gettign something faster ? http://www.simtec.co.uk/products/EB110ATX/
[06:47] <LaserJock> our new oscilloscope has an ethernet card in it, I'm somewhat tempted to see if I could run it that way
[06:47] <persia> LaserJock: It certainly looks nice.  I've only every played with limited pulls from DB25 and a special add-in card for an Apple IIgs forever ago, but I like IEEE_488.1.  Simple no the probe end, and fairly fast.
[06:47] <persia> imbrandon: why do you want ATX?
[06:48] <LaserJock> persia: yeah, the big pain for me is that National Instruments changed their driver so I can only use a 2.4 kernel
[06:48] <imbrandon> persia, i want a full desktop board, could be smaller, but i want to be able to run it fully standalone with attached drives and video out etc
[06:48] <LaserJock> well, that or somehow rewrite the data collection program
[06:49] <persia> imbrandon: OK, so microATX and the like works for you as well, as long as it has USB, video out, and a sane drive controller?
[06:49] <imbrandon> yup
[06:49]  * persia wishes that all the robotics stores in Akihabara hadn't switched to AMD
[06:50] <Fujitsu> Robotics stores!?
[06:50] <Fujitsu> You have *robotics* stores?
[06:50] <persia> Fujitsu: You know, stores that sell consumer robots, parts, kits, controllers, etc.
[06:50] <LaserJock> you have stores!? like real stores? ;-)
[06:50] <imbrandon> cool, no i;ve never seen one either
[06:50] <persia> LaserJock: Yeah.
[06:51] <Fujitsu> persia: No, I don't know of them.
[06:51] <Fujitsu> Well, I do now, but..
[06:51] <imbrandon> most that kinda stuff here is mail order
[06:51] <persia> Well, actually the one that I used to visit that was all-robotics closed, but major sections, like 1/2 a floor or a full floor in a big store
[06:51] <imbrandon> or internet order
[06:51]  * persia disdains the internet for delivery of material goods
[06:51] <LaserJock> imbrandon: pfft, who uses mail
[06:51] <imbrandon> LaserJock, lol
[06:51] <LaserJock> persia: that's the only way some of us get anything
[06:51] <Fujitsu> persia: Note that you live in a nation which doesn't generally seem to be in the technological dark ages.
[06:52] <persia> Fujitsu: It's not that, it's that Japan is running out of people, so we need to make more, or there won't be anybody to do the work in 20 years.
[06:52] <Fujitsu> persia: Ahahah.
[06:53] <persia> Other countries (like Australia) have good robot tech, but less of an economic incentive to push it into the market: people want jobs, not robots to do the work.
[06:53]  * Fujitsu decides to attempt to resolve the universe security situation post-exams. ~motu-swat has quite a few open bugs subscribed, and that's not nearly as many as there actually are.
[06:55] <imbrandon> persia, where are you ? jp ?
[06:55] <persia> imbrandon: Yep.
[06:55] <imbrandon> ahh /me never knew
[06:56]  * persia suggests traceroute
[06:57] <somerville32> We can't see your ip
[06:57] <persia> somerville32: imbrandon can
[06:57] <somerville32> okay.
[06:57] <imbrandon> persia, heh yea but i tend not too unless needed
[06:57] <imbrandon> :)
[06:58] <imbrandon> pluss as soon as i use operserv tons of PM's come in asking for cloaks etc :)
[06:58] <persia> imbrandon: The trick is to do it in a private channel, no?
[06:58] <imbrandon> that and ssh + screen + irssi , is quite common
[06:59] <imbrandon> persia, well yea but i would still have to wear a +T which makes me show up on /stats p , e.g. "available" for Staff requests
[06:59] <persia> imbrandon: Ah.  No help for that then.
[06:59] <imbrandon> even if its only for moments
[07:01] <imbrandon> hrm persia ever messed with these "full systems" that seem to fit in a PCI slot ?
[07:01] <imbrandon> could 1 or 2 of those be added to an x86 and it just use the HDD etc from the "host" ?
[07:01] <ajmitch> imbrandon: cn u pls giv me ops? :)
[07:01] <imbrandon> lol
[07:01] <persia> imbrandon: Only lightly.  I once worked on a code management system for a system that consisted of 8 PCI boards, each of which ran a 486SX
[07:02] <Fujitsu> Haha.
[07:02] <ajmitch> yay!
[07:02] <imbrandon> heh
[07:02] <persia> imbrandon: How important is the video driver again?  Does this need to connect to a monitor, or will serial console do?
[07:02] <LaserJock> ajmitch: cn u pls giv me ops?
[07:02] <imbrandon> serial would do
[07:03] <LaserJock> lol, you nut
[07:03]  * Fujitsu watches the virus spread.
[07:03]  * imbrandon notes the access list in -motu ;)
[07:03] <LaserJock> my IRC foo is not so good
[07:03]  * ajmitch looks at Fujitsu
[07:03]  * Fujitsu is looked at.
[07:04] <imbrandon> LaserJock, e.g. anyone can op in here , kinda like giving the whole town guns to prevent crimes ;)
[07:04] <imbrandon> one of the only *ubuntu* channels like that iirc
[07:04]  * ajmitch thinks of the ramifications of kicking Hobbsee...
[07:04] <LaserJock> imbrandon: yeah
[07:05] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: Only staffers seem to have a wildcard here.
[07:05] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, try to opup
[07:05] <somerville32> Not anyone can op in here
[07:05] <Fujitsu> Hahaha.
[07:05] <minghua> ajmitch: Entertaining for a bystander, I'm sure.
[07:05] <Hobbsee> muhahahahaha
[07:06] <persia> imbrandon: How about http://gumstix.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=178?  It's pretty cheap, and well supported.  You'll want to get http://gumstix.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=190&osCsid=8301de13ae9dcd5750cc01e98473ec5e for NFS mounting, and the like, and http://gumstix.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=185 for console.
[07:06] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, the staffer wild card is to "invite" staffers to op when needed , they CAN in any channel but dont out of principal except where the wildcard is
[07:06] <Hobbsee> who's next?
[07:06] <highvoltage> stop the violence!!!
[07:06] <highvoltage> :)
[07:06] <Fujitsu> Baaah.
[07:07] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, the staffer wild card is to "invite" staffers to op when needed , they CAN in any channel but dont out of principal except where the wildcard is
[07:07] <TheMuso> Stop all this distructive behavior. Do you want your uus queue processed? :p
[07:07] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: I knew that, but couldn't see any others.
[07:07]  * Fujitsu checks levels.
[07:07] <Fujitsu> (I note I couldn't unban myself :()
[07:07]  * Hobbsee got the list changed
[07:07] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: no, you're not on the list :P
[07:07]  * Hobbsee --> work
[07:08] <Fujitsu> Isn't it a bit silly to let anybody op?
[07:08] <Fujitsu> Maybe *!*@ubuntu/member/*, but...
[07:08] <minghua> As long as it's not abused, I think it's okay.
[07:08] <ajmitch> and hobbsee ran away...
[07:08] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, its been that way almost 3 years now :)
[07:08] <Fujitsu> She did.
[07:08] <LaserJock> we've never had a problem I don' think
[07:08] <minghua> Next time I won't need to ask for ops if a troll came in.
[07:08] <LaserJock> bah
[07:09] <persia> Fujitsu: It's not a problem until it's a problem.  I like to have it be open: we're generally well behaved (recent events excluded)
[07:09] <minghua> (although Hobbsee said that she has changed the list...)
[07:09] <Fujitsu> persia: True, true.
[07:09] <Fujitsu> minghua: She hasn't.
[07:09] <minghua> Oh okay.
[07:09] <imbrandon> she dident
[07:09] <minghua> persia: I wouldn't really categorize the recent event as "badly behaved"...
[07:10] <LaserJock> wahoo
[07:10] <persia> minghua: Would you categorise it as "well behaved"?
[07:10] <LaserJock> I was able to deop myself, phew
[07:10] <imbrandon> persia, i seem to get SQL errors on all those pages
[07:10]  * persia grumbles.
[07:11] <imbrandon> persia, ahh fixed it
[07:11] <imbrandon> i had one too many ? in the url
[07:12] <persia> imbrandon: gumstix.com.  You want console-vx, netCF-vs, and a Vestax.  Should be ~250US for a 600MHz machine with console, ethernet, and a CF card for up to 4GB of local disk space (use the USB port for the actual build runs, etc.)
[07:12] <minghua> persia: Not really...  But I was tempted to fool around a bit, too. :-P
[07:12] <persia> minghua: Then we agree :)
[07:13] <imbrandon> persia, ahhh very nice, thanks for the links
[07:13] <LaserJock> "imbrandon's collection of ancient and unusable procs"
[07:13] <imbrandon> hehe un-useable i wouldent say
[07:13] <persia> imbrandon: In ATX, I can also only find ~200MHz.  I found some 400MHz in miniITX, but this is 600MHz, much cheaper, and very linux friendly (look at the wiki)
[07:14] <LaserJock> if I could only get my sparc machine running
[07:14] <LaserJock> I've still not even booted it up
[07:14] <imbrandon> LaserJock, just hook a serial console to it and boot :)
[07:14]  * persia hands LaserJock a spool of solder
[07:14] <Fujitsu> Are we creating an ARM port or something?
[07:15] <persia> Fujitsu: Yep.  I want ubuntu-mobile :)
[07:15] <Fujitsu> Aha, nice.
[07:15] <LaserJock> imbrandon: I don't think I have a serial console
[07:15] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, i'm sure there will be a need for ubuntu mobile
[07:15] <Fujitsu> Just that seed for now?
[07:15] <persia> LaserJock: You can use a null-modem cable to your PC
[07:15] <minghua> What arch is the ARM port going to be?  armeb?
[07:15] <LaserJock> imbrandon: we're going to be doing some stuff with UME I think for Edubuntu
[07:15] <LaserJock> for the classmate
[07:15] <persia> minghua: I was thinking big-endian.  Do you have a preference?
[07:15] <imbrandon> sweet
[07:16] <LaserJock> persia: where do I get a null-modem cable?
[07:16] <imbrandon> preferably stuff that would run on the nokia's
[07:16] <pwnguin> LaserJock: radioshack?
[07:16] <imbrandon> LaserJock, you can make one super easy
[07:16] <pwnguin> LaserJock: or just switch like three wires around
[07:17] <persia> LaserJock: swap pins 2&3, and short 8&20, but they cost less than a bottle of water at most electronics stores.
[07:17] <LaserJock> hmm, but that's rs232
[07:17] <LaserJock> what am I gonna stick that into
[07:18] <imbrandon> the back of the sparc and your laptop
[07:18] <Fujitsu> Laptops with RS232? hahaha.
[07:18] <imbrandon> then open a terminal on the lappy , and boot the sparc
[07:18] <persia> Your SPARC has a serial connection (one of DB25, DB9, or RJ-48).  On the other side, you might need an older computer.
[07:18] <LaserJock> yeah, I'll have to check around
[07:18] <LaserJock> we mostly have iMacs these days
[07:18] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, his 1800+ probably has a serial port
[07:19] <imbrandon> LaserJock, if your really fancy get a db9 serial to usb converter, they work too
[07:19] <imbrandon> then spark serial to cable to converter to laptop usb
[07:20] <LaserJock> hmm
[07:20] <LaserJock> I'll have to look into that
[07:20] <LaserJock> it's just gotta be cheap
[07:20] <LaserJock> I've already wasted $0 on this thing ;-)
[07:20] <persia> LaserJock: If you want to look extra cool, get a USB -> RJ48 serial converter : then you can use the nifty colored network cables to connect.
[07:21] <imbrandon> LaserJock,  less than $20 total
[07:21] <imbrandon> even with a converter
[07:21] <Fujitsu> persia: You mean RJ45, or is there some other standard I was previously unaware of?
[07:21] <Fujitsu> Anybody here run WordPress on Dapper or Edgy?
[07:22] <persia> Fujitsu: It's RJ45 + a key groove to prevent people sticking in network cables.
[07:22] <Fujitsu> persia: Oh, that one, right.
[07:22] <imbrandon> Fujitsu, i DID at one time, i've since upgraded to gutsy
[07:22] <persia> (which is easy to fix with nearly any sharp implement and a couple minutes)
[07:22] <imbrandon> ( for imbrandon.com )
[07:23]  * Fujitsu will attempt to get both (from 2.0.[23]) up to 2.0.11 in the next couple of weeks, as that security branch is being kept alive for another few years.
[07:24] <persia> Fujitsu: That's a better answer.  I was looking at backports about five months ago, and the patches are just ugly :(
[07:25] <LaserJock> darn it, where'd nixternal go
[07:26] <imbrandon> dunno i've always run from source on it, 2.3.1 atm
[07:26] <imbrandon> webapp packages always seemed pointless to me,
[07:27] <Fujitsu> persia: I'll review the patches between versions to make sure, but it all looks like it should be OK to do direct version backports to -security.
[07:27] <Fujitsu> And once we're up to date, we just have to track etch.
[07:27] <LaserJock> imbrandon: yeah, I kinda go both ways on it
[07:28] <LaserJock> if we keep on top of the updates it's not too bad
[07:28] <Fujitsu> It's a lot easier when we have a Debian release fairly well synchronised.
[07:29] <imbrandon> well personaly i hack on my webapps too much for an automated update ever to work
[07:29] <imbrandon> thats why i dont
[07:29] <imbrandon> my wordpress install can hardly be called 2.3.1 really
[07:30]  * Fujitsu recruits more people for ~motu-swat.
[07:30] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: if I was more reliable I'd love to help
[07:30] <LaserJock> but umm, right now I don't know if LaserJock and QA/Security should go together
[07:33] <persia> Fujitsu: That seems sane to me, but last time I suggested that a couple people weren't entirely happy about the idea.
[07:33] <persia> LaserJock: Perhaps you and I together could be almost as reliable as one person?
[07:33] <LaserJock> hehe
[07:35] <Fujitsu> persia: It's the only way we're going to be able to support it for any significant length of time.
[07:35] <persia> Fujitsu: I agree: since upstream has a "stable series", it doesn't make sense to cherrypick.
[07:35] <Fujitsu> I'd really like to get some proper security tracking (integrated with Debian's) for Hardy.
[07:36] <Fujitsu> persia: Right.
[07:36] <Fujitsu> There are some other bugfixes thrown into some of the the earlier updates, I think.
[07:36] <minghua> persia: (about ARM port) No, I don't have any preference, it's just that there are three different arches in Debian that makes me curious.
[07:36] <Fujitsu> But they're minimal, so should be manageable.
[07:36] <persia> Fujitsu: I think that 6 months ago people were considering Dapper to not be a good SRU candidate, but with hardy coming, it's suddenly more important to make sure we meet our obligations.
[07:37] <white> Fujitsu: why not adjusting the security tracker?
[07:37] <Fujitsu> white: Well, I was hoping your people wouldn't be too "aaaaargh it's ubuntu kill kill kill kill"
[07:37] <white> Fujitsu: where did you get that feeling?
[07:37] <Fujitsu> white: Some DDs are, so...
[07:37] <persia> minghua: little-ending, big-endian, and arbitrary-endian (yes, ARM supports this)
[07:38] <Fujitsu> .... arbitrary-endian. Riiight.
[07:38] <Fujitsu> arm split in Debian recently, didn't it?
[07:38] <persia> Fujitsu: Really: there's a instruction that swaps the endian-sense for some ARM chips.
[07:38] <white> Fujitsu: well i was offering cooperation between the tesiting-security team and ubuntu for quite some time ;)
[07:38] <Fujitsu> That sounds really wrong.
[07:38] <white> Fujitsu: i am not convinced that the current people maintaining the tracker would mind that much, if ubuntu is displayed as well
[07:38] <Fujitsu> white: I'll be able to devote a lot of time after next Friday, so will have a look and try to get something going soon.
[07:39] <persia> white: Please forgive our lack of organisation: we'll try to be able to respond to you soon.
[07:39] <LaserJock> what is the proposal?
[07:39] <white> persia: no worries
[07:39] <white> LaserJock: track the unembargoed issues (and the embargoed as far as it is possible) with the security tracker
[07:39] <persia> LaserJock: -security collaboration between Debian and Ubuntu (especially for universe)
[07:40] <LaserJock> ok
[07:40] <white> LaserJock: and it should be able to adjust it, in order to show the ubuntu releases as well
[07:40] <LaserJock> oh, that would be awesome
[07:40] <LaserJock> I love the Debian security tracker stuff
[07:40] <Fujitsu> I'm not sure what the security team will think of this, but we can do it for universe at least.
[07:40] <Fujitsu> The security tracker rocks, yeah.
[07:40]  * persia thinks Ubuntu just needs a semi-stable point of contact to organise things
[07:40] <white> i did not discuss that with the rest of the testing-security team or the stable sec team, but i personally do not see any problem with that
[07:40] <Fujitsu> And it would be nice to keep Hardy in good shape for a couple of years.
[07:41] <white> LaserJock: keep in mind that it still leaves the embargoed issues though
[07:41] <persia> Fujitsu: If we propose for universe, I don't imagine they will complain, although I'm not sure their workflow will change as much.
[07:41] <Fujitsu> Malone would actually be very good for tracking such things, but I can't see that happening.
[07:41] <persia> white: That's OK.  We currently sometimes take > 6 months for the unembargoed issues: so any bettter tracking would be a vast improvement.
[07:42] <persia> Fujitsu: There's some stuff in there (at least for CVEs), but the interface is not ideal.
[07:42]  * Fujitsu has got to a couple of issues within a day or two, but that's a vast minority.
[07:42] <Fujitsu> persia: Right.
[07:42] <white> well, i can answer questions if needed (last exam tomorrow :) )
[07:42] <Fujitsu> Erm, s/vast/tiny/, I guess.
[07:42] <\sh> moins
[07:42] <pwnguin> whee
[07:42] <pwnguin>            *(vertex_data_start+14+(i<<6)) = (127 - ((*(vertex_data_start+14+(i<<6))) & 127)) | ((*(vertex_data_start+14+(i<<6))) & 128);  // !!!ANCHOR!!!
[07:42] <Fujitsu> Hi \sh.
[07:42] <TheMuso> Can we sync from 3rd-party repos like debian multimedia for example?
[07:42] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: We can, but it's not often done.
[07:42] <persia> ¥Sh  Hi
[07:42] <\sh> at last...my holiday is over
[07:43] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: Right...
[07:43] <persia> TheMuso: Yes, but it requires extra manual work by the admins, so we usually don't
[07:43] <TheMuso> persia: makes sense.
[07:44] <persia> TheMuso: long, long ago the sync scripts were adjusted to handle more other repos, but we didn't end up wanting everything from any of them, and playing with blacklists got it all turned off, just as a frame of reference for the current situation.
[07:44] <TheMuso> Right.
[07:45]  * TheMuso has knocked down the uus queue a bit.
[07:45] <pkern> \sh: YAY!
[07:45]  * pkern cheers \sh
[07:45] <pkern> Nightrose: ^
[07:46]  * persia cheers, and promises pound on it when REVU day closes
[07:46] <persia> to^
[07:46] <Nightrose> morning \sh and pkern
[07:46] <Nightrose> ;)
[07:46] <TheMuso> I'd review, but I feel uus is just as important ATM.
[07:46] <pkern> Nightrose: Heh... I'm already in a "lecture" ;)
[07:46] <Nightrose> how are you?
[07:46] <Nightrose> hehe /me is getting ready for her lectures
[07:46] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: uus is more important. Always.
[07:47] <\sh> Nightrose, fine :) relaxed :)(
[07:47] <Nightrose> good :)
[07:47] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: I actually agree with that.
[07:47] <pkern> \sh: Complete resistance/reluctance to use the PC or any modern mean of communication? :-P
[07:47] <persia> TheMuso: I think UUS is always more important, it's just that the end of REVU day and my access to my key coincidentally happen around the same time
[07:47] <Fujitsu> TheMuso: I don't see why anybody would think otherwise..
[07:48] <TheMuso> persia: Right.
[07:48] <TheMuso> Fujitsu: I'm sure some people do.
[07:48] <Fujitsu> Bugfixes are going to be more beneficial than a random new package.
[07:48] <persia> Random new packages tend to contribute negatively to the bug closing efforts
[07:48]  * pkern waits for his laptop to be repaired at IBM and return to Ubuntu afterwards.  They (tried to) call(ed) me yesterday because I forgot to remove the BIOS password.  Yuck.
[07:49] <Fujitsu> persia: That's the one.
[07:49] <pkern> persia: Synced or "new in Ubuntu"?
[07:49] <persia> pkern: Yes
[07:49] <Fujitsu> pkern: Those fetched from the pool of evil that lurks in REVU.
[07:49] <persia> (Many new-in-Debian packages seem to take about 6 months to get in good shape)
[07:49] <pkern> So both is evil I conclude.
[07:50] <imbrandon> shouldent all packages be imported by now ?
[07:50] <pkern> persia: Depends on the sponsor ;)
[07:50] <Fujitsu> imbrandon: Not quite.
[07:50] <imbrandon> all non-merge packages
[07:50] <imbrandon> err ok
[07:50] <Fujitsu> I only saw up to m* in NEW yesterday.
[07:50] <persia> Fujitsu: You're not familiar with the random stuff that ends up in Debian?  At least everything in REVU goes in lintian/linda clean, installs, and doesn't FTBFS
[07:50] <Fujitsu> persia: Really? Ew.
[07:50] <persia> pkern: Let's just say "self-sponsored" isn't as ideal as I'd like.
[07:50] <pkern> persia: You're insulting Debian here.
[07:50] <Fujitsu> I wonder how they manage that.
[07:51] <pkern> persia: And it passes NEW?
[07:51] <pkern> persia: FTBFS on obscure architectures that Ubuntu doesn't have?
[07:51] <persia> pkern: There are cases of self-sponsored software in Ubuntu that are just as bad, if not worse, but I claim that the policy of requiring REVU even for developers is superior than just allowing uploads.
[07:52] <pkern> I'd disagree, though.
[07:52] <persia> pkern: True, lots of it is caught in NEW, but not all.
[07:52] <TheMuso> ...like when NEW is so long that they take shortcuts just to get through it all? :p
[07:52] <pkern> persia: Do you have hard data to back that up?
[07:54] <persia> pkern: I don't have my search tools handy, but did I, I would compare all software new-in-gutsy and all software new-in-Debian during the gutsy cycle.  I'd expect to see similar levels of cruft, with Ubuntu more likely to not run properly, and Debian more likely to have unimportant lintian/linda wanrings and informational notes.
[07:54]  * TheMuso -> dinner
[07:55] <pkern> persia: Thanks.  That relieves me.
[07:55] <\sh> pkern, right :)
[07:56] <persia> pkern: Good.  I really don't mean to insult Debian, I just think that peer review promotes quality.  On the other hand, Debian is very much more likely to follow up on getting the package in shape once it's accepted, whereas much of new-in-Ubuntu rots.
[07:57] <Fujitsu> For certain, very large, values of much.
[07:58]  * persia agrees with that definition of much
[07:58] <minghua> IMHO, there are plenty of bad packages that are rotting in Debian as well, they just only rot in unstable and never get released, because of the wonderful policy of RC bugs.
[07:58] <pkern> But Ubuntu syncs from unstable so it rots there, too.
[07:58] <pkern> That's a large QA issue IMHO.
[07:58] <persia> minghua: Well, someone has to file the RC bug: packages without users can end up in stable and still be cruft.
[07:59] <Fujitsu> We really do need to trawl through the Ubuntu-new packages and tag stuff that could probably be obliterated.
[07:59] <persia> pkern: The idea is that we're supposed to fix it up, but not insult the person who has been ignoring it for the past couple years by NMUing.  It's not ideal, and needs QA attention, but it's not a bad idea.
[08:00] <minghua> persia: If Ubuntu has a RC bug policy, I can probably label about 10 bugs in MOTU-science world as RC right now.
[08:00] <persia> Fujitsu: I think we should push for as many Ubuntu-only merges as we can get, and then investigate the rest.
[08:01] <persia> minghua: Sure.  Doesn't help fix them, and doesn't get the code to people who can (I'm here because my joystick didn't work in vegastrike: nothing more)
[08:01] <pkern> "not insult [...] by NMUing"? wtf? NMUs aren't an insult anymore for quite some people. But that's IMHO, though.
[08:01] <minghua> persia: While what you said is true, it's only true to a certain extent -- our users do report bugs, it's just that we don't triage them properly enough.
[08:01] <persia> pkern: For any sane maintainer, an NMU is helpful.  For some of the unstable cruft, that's not the case.
[08:01] <pkern> minghua: So it's all our fault. :-P
[08:02] <persia> minghua: Do you mean triage into a decision to remove the package?
[08:02]  * pkern is all for removing packages after import freeze.
[08:03] <minghua> pkern: In a sense, yes.  For overseeing the whole universe, we MOTU as a team pretty much fails.
[08:03] <persia> pkern: The problem is that we don't want to remove anything we'll want back.  We don't have a pocket into which we can stuff things, so it ends up just gone.
[08:03] <persia> minghua: I wouldn't say we fail, but rather that we succeed in narrowly defined ways.
[08:04] <minghua> persia: If necessary, yes.  My position has always been that no package is (much) better than bad package.
[08:04] <pkern> persia: You can't imagine how often I already heared that.  I'd guess LP has tobe improved apart from the fact that the package still lives on somewhere in librarian.
[08:04] <minghua> persia: Sure.  I am always the glass-half-empty guy.
[08:04] <pkern> persia: There is no morgue, that's right.
[08:04] <persia> minghua: Hrm.  I'll agree for some values of "bad", but suspect that is the core of the difference anyway.
[08:05] <pkern> persia: Could we please open a bug about that then?
[08:05] <persia> pkern: I don't even know if a not-to-be-released pocket is on the roadmap.
[08:05] <persia> pkern: There may be one.  If not, feel free to file.
[08:05] <pkern> What are "pockets" in Ubuntu newspeak?
[08:05] <Fujitsu> pkern: release, security, updates, backports.
[08:05] <persia> + -proposed
[08:05] <Fujitsu> True.
[08:05] <pkern> Fujitsu: ENOTADEFINITION
[08:06] <persia> So we'd be talking about -excised or something?
[08:06] <Fujitsu> persia: I presume so.
[08:06] <pkern> I don't want it to be apt-get'able.
[08:06] <Fujitsu> But I'm not sure that's an ideal modelling.
[08:06] <persia> pkern: Why not?  How to grab the source and do something if one can't apt-get?  Most of it will probably FTBFS, so binaries are less of a worry.
[08:07] <Fujitsu> We ideally want to run initialise-from-parent pre-release, and then remove stuff from the old one. But we can't do that.
[08:07] <pkern> persia: Then a source-only apt-get source.
[08:07] <pkern> persia: I don't need apt-get to retrieve packages via dget, but well.
[08:07] <persia> Fujitsu: That's a much better model.  We could even maintain a continuous import into some trunk, and branch each release.  As long as trunk was basically inaccessible, we'd be golden.
[08:08] <Fujitsu> persia: But that unfortunately means changing how Soyuz and the rest of the distro works. Which hasn't got a chance of happening.
[08:08] <persia> ...within the next several years
[08:08] <pkern> Fujitsu: That's that @ initialise-from-parent?
[08:08] <pkern> Ah, I understand.
[08:09] <Fujitsu> pkern: initialise-from-parent is the script that is run to copy an old release into a new one.
[08:09] <pkern> Yes, some kind of continous trunk would be nice.
[08:09] <pkern> But it's possible that we aren't focused enough on the release then.
[08:09] <pkern> Like it's the case in Debian.
[08:09] <pkern> (Granted, all DDs want releases. :-P )
[08:10] <persia> pkern: That's why I wanted an inaccessible trunk
[08:10] <Fujitsu> We need an extra component or something that is never published on release, and we can easily push stuff to/from... but I really don't see how that can happen.
[08:10] <persia> Fujitsu: Could we create another distribution containing only cruft?
[08:11] <Fujitsu> I guess with the new multiple archive work (used for partner, and soon security), it wouldn't be too difficult to have an extra pocket published to some hard-to-get-at location, and use Soyuz's new copying feature to get stuff to/from it.
[08:11] <Fujitsu> That's probably the best solution, actually.
[08:11] <persia> That would be -excised
[08:11] <Fujitsu> Yeah, and it's possible now.
[08:12] <Fujitsu> Erm, sorry, that would be another *component*, not pocket.
[08:12] <Fujitsu> Like partner.
[08:12] <persia> Right.  Galaxy?  That takes us back to the discussion I was unhappy with before.
[08:13] <persia> Err..  No, the container model is wrong: not "Galaxy"
[08:13] <Fujitsu> I was thinking that: galaxy would be smaller than universe.
[08:13] <imbrandon> metaverse ?
[08:13] <persia> Fujitsu: Right.
[08:13] <Fujitsu> keepawayfromheremortalsiverse.
[08:13] <persia> imbrandon: That works
[08:14] <imbrandon> anyhow i personaly dont think we should seperate main/universe only multiverse
[08:14] <mok0> blackhole
[08:14] <imbrandon> but thats just me