[01:11] <kklimonda> is charms.reactive and layering "the way" to write new charms?
[01:14] <hloeung> kklimonda: yeah. As I understand, it's also a requirement to get charms accepted into the charmstore / official
[03:46] <mwhudson> axw, menn0: you'll be getting the go 1.8.1 snap on the next refresh, hope it works :)
[03:46] <axw> mwhudson: thanks!
[03:46] <axw> mwhudson: I'll let you know if I have any more issues
[03:49] <menn0> mwhudson: sweet!
[03:49] <menn0> mwhudson: what changes in this?
[04:09] <mwhudson> menn0: dunno!
[04:09] <mwhudson> menn0: https://golang.org/doc/devel/release.html#go1.8.minor
[07:18] <kjackal> good morning juju world!
[07:22] <kjackal> hloeung: kklimonda: you can push to the store under your namespace any charm (reactive or not). Also, as far as I know the use of reactive is not a requirement (eg I have reviewed charms in perl ). The requirement is that the charm has to be reviewable and with enough tests
[07:23] <hloeung> kjackal: ah, thanks for clearing that up
[07:24] <kjackal> hloeung: kklimonda: hloeung when you mention "charmstore / official" you mean charm that have gone through the review process and become recomended. This is why these charms have to have tests
[07:24] <kjackal> hloeung: kklimonda: you can push charms under your namespace without any restrictions and unattended
[07:26] <kklimonda> [insert a comment about fragmenting community]
[07:26] <kklimonda> kjackal: so, as long as it's not a part of a larger project (like openstack-charms) everything goes?
[07:28] <kklimonda> I was a bit confused about charms.reactive given that it's mentioned in docs, and yet pypi release is from 2015 - but now I see that there are newer releases on github
[07:32] <kjackal> kklimonda: you can push a charm that uses/extends openstack charms/bundles. Your charms will be available under cs:~kklimonda/my-awesome-charm . If you want to partner with Canonical - prtnership means have canonical recomend your charm, have shared marketing events etc- you will have to go through a charm review process. This process includes "charm schools" meetings were our engineers show you how charms work are tested best
[07:32] <kjackal>  practices etc. As soon as charm is reviewed and accesped as recomneded ("promulgated") the charm is served from cs:my-awesome-charm
[07:34] <kjackal> kklimonda: why would that fragment the comunity?
[07:36] <kklimonda> kjackal: you've mentioned charm written in perl, I've seen examples of bash charms, someone was discussing pupper-based charm, and I've seen code for wrapping ansible. That doesn't strike me as a desirable trait, given that the barrier of entry to contribute and/or fix charms is basically unbounded.
[07:37] <kklimonda> kjackal: even in my time with openstack (and related) charms I've seen 3 ways of defining apt repositories, with subtly different syntax.
[07:44] <kjackal> kklimonda: It is true that Juju does not stand behind a single language. There are are some (strongly) recomended  practices like reactive. The reason for this is that Juju is not here to install your software on a machine. Instead Juju will handle the lifecycle of your software and your infrastructure as a whole. What I mean by that is that you have puppet, ansimble, python, perl, bash scripts that would do the configuration
[07:44] <kjackal> and deployment of your software. You should be able to reuse the (operational) logic you have for managing a service. When this logic gets complicated (see for example openstack) Juju gives you a great environment to model your infrastructure and manges its lifecycle. Think of it like juju is a higher level set of abstructions that allow you to model and manage the changing states of your infrastructure
[07:49] <kklimonda> kjackal: so the idea is that you can either start from scratch, or wrap your existing internal tools in juju, and have it working with as little modifications as possible?
[07:52] <kjackal> kklimonda: Yes. And as you get into more complicated states you should align your operational lodgic to match the abstractions juju suggests (mainly charms and relations)
[07:56] <kjackal> kklimonda: let me also point out that Juju shines when you have dynamic environemnts where charms interact with each-other. From a theoretical perspective Juju allows you to do a service choreography althogh most of the time the term orchestration is used to describe what juju can do..... I am taking this too far... I should stop here
[08:00] <kklimonda> mhm, interactions between charms - provisioning users, sharing secrets, are indeed pretty cool
[08:04] <kklimonda> what about orchestrating applications on top of kubernetes cluster with juju? There's a lot of chatter about juju kubernetes distribution, but not much about how to provision stuff on top of the cluster.
[08:32] <kjackal> kklimonda: at the moment we do not have a sulution for delivering and orchestrating apps on kubernetes
[09:06] <BlackDex> blahdeblah: Do you know if it is possible to add two nrpe plugins to the same main-charm?
[09:38] <farfetchd> Hi All, we are using the new juju library 0.3.0 were the AddMachine method was implemented. we are facing some issues: can somebody help? here is the log: https://p.rrbone.net/paste/BKUdtoIr#twKArUtuTYMelvtKi0NmwXezdSImPiyCYtzwNuySxcd
[09:41] <farfetchd> what we are executing is here: https://p.rrbone.net/paste/4V3MquPk#CEjpqUArvyiS1QA2APxpaezgP7WZNqdGAeR64sOmsZc
[10:28] <blahdeblah> BlackDex: I *think* so, as long as they use two different application names, but I've never tried it, nor am I aware of any instances of it being used.
[10:29] <cnf> hmm
[10:29] <cnf> proxy use in juju is a mess
[10:33] <Zic> do you know if running "juju config kubernetes-worker install_from_upstream=true" on a CDK production cluster is possible? what Juju will do, upgrading Docker everywhere or one worker by one worker?
[10:33] <Zic> (oh sorry, forget to say hello :'()
[10:33] <Zic> forgot*
[10:41] <kjackal> Hi Zic looking at https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-docker/blob/master/reactive/docker.py#L85 this will change docker under the hood. I think it will run on all workers at the same time.
[10:58] <Zic> kjackal: ok, so I will plan a maintenance upgrade at night, thanks :)
[11:09] <Zic> just for info, I tried it on our preproduction cluster, all is working except I needed to restart kubelet on every kubernetes-worker
[11:09] <Zic> all green after that in juju status :)
[11:22] <cnf> hmz
[11:22] <cnf> juju is a mess when you need it to be behind a proxy :/
[11:51] <BlackDex> blahdeblah: Oke, cool, maybe i will try. If i do, i will let you know :)
[12:16] <cnf> any idea how i can make juju retry provisioning a container?
[12:17] <cnf> this is very much a painpoint in juju, imo
[12:19] <BlackDex> provisioning of the container?
[12:19] <BlackDex> did it start the container?
[12:19] <cnf> it can't _start_ it
[12:19] <cnf> it couldn't even download it
[12:20] <cnf> i set the proxy, for now, so i need to tell it to retry it
[12:20] <cnf> and after that, remove the proxy again
[12:20] <BlackDex> you could try to restart the jujud machine unit
[12:21] <BlackDex> is the machine in error state?
[12:21] <cnf> no, nothing is in error
[12:22] <cnf> hence why i can't poke anything
[12:22] <cnf> i can do neither juju resolved nor Juju retry-provisioning
[12:23] <cnf> i'm kinda stuck
[12:25] <stub> I haven't needed to retry - it seems to do it automatically as soon as things are right (eg. fixing my VPN so I have network connectivity again, or bouncing my web proxy so it binds to the correct IP address)
[12:26] <cnf> yeah, it's not moving
[12:26] <cnf> at all
[12:26] <stub> It isn't very informative about it, but works. ie. it just sits there unhelpful until I diagnose the problem , myself and fix it
[12:27] <stub> Bouncing the jujuds on the controller would be a good kick in the teeth, but I have no idea what side effects that would have
[12:29] <cnf> hmz
[12:29] <stub> I have seen it sit there for a long, long time if images are being downloaded over a slow link
[12:30] <cnf> it's not doing anything
[12:30] <cnf> and it's not a slow link
[12:32] <stub> juju destroy-machine --force and retry now you have sorted your proxy?
[12:32] <cnf> yeah,no, because it needs to NOT have a proxy set for some things, and a proxy set for others
[12:32] <cnf> because juju is stupid that way
[12:33] <cnf> and resetting a machine takes 20+ minutes
[12:33] <stub> There are separate settings for apt proxy vs http proxy if that helps
[12:33] <cnf> no, it doesn't
[12:33] <cnf> because lxd doesn't use the apt proxy
[12:34] <cnf> and setting http-proxy sets it for _everything_
[12:34] <stub> Oh, I'm dealing with the lxd provider rather than lxd containers on a machine so I'm unsure if my experience counts here
[12:34] <stub> yeah, I've had to add specific proxy config options to some charms (eg. the proxy for the snap layer to use for snap store requests)
[12:34] <cnf> i keep putting in places where it doesn't know how to recover
[12:34] <cnf> not confidence inspiring
[12:35] <cnf> brb, got to pick up a package
[12:36] <kjackal> Zic could you open a ticket to track down the issue of needing to restart kubelet? https://github.com/juju-solutions/bundle-canonical-kubernetes/issues
[12:43] <cnf> k, disk swapped
[12:43] <cnf> stub: i don't know how to configure proxy for lxd, but not system wide...
[12:44] <cnf> if i set system wide proxy, openstack won't work
[12:44] <cnf> and no_proxy doesn't understand CIDR
[12:44] <cnf> so i'd have to add every single IP possible, which is a long list
[12:45] <cnf> https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju/+bug/1488139 is relevant, btw
[12:45] <mup> Bug #1488139: juju should add nodes IPs to no-proxy list <landscape> <network> <oil> <proxy> <juju:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1488139>
[12:46] <cnf> so i don't know how to solve this... apt has apt-http-proxy, but lxd doesn't use that
[12:47] <cnf> and i don't know how to make juju retry the lxd setup, ffs >,<
[12:48] <stub> #openstack-charms might have insight. I vaguely recall this being discussed before re: no_proxy
[12:49] <cnf> stub: yes, with me
[12:51] <cnf> hmz, it seems it just isn't possible
[12:51] <cnf> juju stops trying when it can't pull a container
[12:56] <cnf> logs don't show anything, either
[12:56] <cnf> just not doing anything
[12:59] <cnf> ugh, this is stupid
[13:05] <cnf> juju retry-provisioning should support containers
[15:53] <Zic> do you have any release date planned for CDK with K8s 1.6?
[16:03] <kjackal> Zic: We are finishing up our testing today. If all goes well we should be releasing it tomorrow
[16:03] <kjackal> Zic: it should be 1.6.1
[16:03] <kjackal> Zic: what are you looking to find in 1.6?
[16:09] <lazyPower> o/ Zic
[16:25] <Zic> kjackal: just a question of my customer, nothing particular in my concern :)
[16:25] <Zic> hi lazyPower :)
[19:00] <kwmonroe> cnf: not sure if it'll help, but here's a shortcut for getting all lxd subnet IPs into no-proxy when adding a model:  juju add-model foo --config no-proxy=`echo 10.x.y.{1..255} | sed 's/ /,/g'`
[19:01] <cnf> kwmonroe: times 4, for each subnet
[19:02] <kwmonroe> or.. `echo 10.x.{a,b,c,d}.{1..255} | sed 's/ /,/g'`
[19:03] <cnf> kwmonroe: i'll probably do something like that to get me going, thanks
[19:03] <cnf> but it should be fixed in juju, though
[19:06] <kwmonroe> agreed cnf -- good find on 1488139.  that feels like the right bug to get this fixed under.  after reading the final comment there, i'm not sure what the ramifications of adding so many IPs to no_proxy will be for you.  and i'm sure at some point, there's a limit to the length of data that add-model will allow :/
[19:07] <kwmonroe> still, hopefully it'll get you moving
[19:07] <cnf> uhu, i think my 1681495 is relevant too, though
[19:07] <cnf> even if you just want to cache lxd images at the edge
[19:08] <cnf> admcleod:
[19:08] <cnf> oops
[19:09] <kwmonroe> yeah cnf - i like your idea of lxd-proxy in addition to apt, http, etc
[19:09]  * cnf nods
[19:10] <cnf> btw, you don't know of a way to solve https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju/+bug/1681435, do you?
[19:10] <mup> Bug #1681435: juju retry-provisioning should support containers <juju:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1681435>
[19:12] <kwmonroe> cnf: afraid i don't
[19:12] <cnf> k
[19:18] <kwmonroe> cnf: is rebooting the machine housing the lxd units an option (juju run --machine X 'sudo reboot')?  i wonder if juju would attempt some kind of retry if the controller <-> host lxd communication gets bounced.
[19:18] <cnf> kwmonroe: i didn, doesn't help
[19:18] <kwmonroe> boo
[19:19] <arosales> Cynerva: lazyPower: any success on https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-etcd/issues/89
[19:19] <arosales> hopefully that is the last issue needing resolved for 1.6.1
[19:20] <Cynerva> arosales: we have a fix merged in and tested
[19:20] <arosales> thats an awesome answer :-)
[19:20] <arosales> sorry I missed that I was following updates in https://github.com/juju-solutions/layer-etcd/issues/89
[19:21] <arosales> but good stuff
[19:21] <arosales> mbruzek: by chance, have you built canonical-kubernetes with the latest bits in the candidate channel?
[19:22] <lazyPower> arosales: thats what we're doing now, we're releasing to candidate to test
[19:22] <mbruzek> arosales: we are doing that now, should be available in minutes
[19:22] <arosales> solid
[19:22] <arosales> sounds like we may have a  good canonical-k8 to test
[19:22] <arosales> Cynerva: lazyPower: mbruzek thanks
[19:22] <mbruzek> arosales: we will ping you when done.
[19:23] <arosales> mbruzek: thanks could you also give larrymi a ping. I think he was trying to get some run time on maas.
[19:23] <arosales> thanks
[19:23] <mbruzek> Great
[19:46] <mbruzek> arosales: We just pushed to candidate
[19:51] <larrymi> arosales, mbruzek: working on it now
[19:52] <arosales> mbruzek: thanks
[19:52] <arosales> larrymi: candidate channel should have the latest bits, and should be a good bundle to test on maas with
[19:53] <larrymi> arosales, cool will use those.
[19:54] <arosales> larrymi: thanks or the testing, ping if you have any issues
[19:54] <larrymi> will do arosales


[12:05] <imbrandon> jmac you see you made sabdfl's blog ;)
[12:05] <kwwii> hehe
[12:06] <imbrandon> or better yet just give me damn svg support in PS CS8
[12:06] <imbrandon> hrm brb
[12:22] <troy_s> greetz
[12:24] <kwwii> hey man
[12:24] <mhb> good evening
[12:27] <Viper550> Hello
[12:53] <troy_s> imbrandon, where is the link for jmac?
[12:57] <kwwii> btw. everyone, I updated http://wiki.kubuntu.org/Artwork/Incoming/Kubuntu-Edgy-Ideas including the svgs for the login manager ideas
[12:57] <imbrandon> troy_s: one sec
[12:58] <imbrandon> troy_s: top story on mark shuttleworth.com
[01:00] <troy_s> i think he means jmak
[01:00] <troy_s> not jmac
[01:00] <kwwii> hehe
[01:00] <troy_s> joz
[01:01] <kwwii> but troy will be the big boss soon
[01:01] <kwwii> :p
[01:01] <troy_s> eek...
[01:01] <troy_s> what the hell am i doing in there
[01:01] <imbrandon> heheh
[01:01] <troy_s> just spent 200 bucks on bloody reference books
[01:01] <mhb> kwwii: he's not already?
[01:01] <troy_s> this ubuntu is expensive
[01:01] <troy_s> not a chance
[01:02] <mhb> :o))
[01:02] <troy_s> if i had more time, i would like to contribute more
[01:02] <kwwii> honestly, he has done more work than anyone on controlling the mailing list and progression in general
[01:02] <troy_s> blah
[01:02] <mhb> kwwii: +1
[01:02] <kwwii> the kinda stuff an artist does not do so well
[01:02] <imbrandon> kwwii: yea i like that last screenshot ( now we just need purple konq nav icons and a purple K menu ;P ) lol j/k
[01:03] <kwwii> hehe, imbrandon: the point of that blue screen was to get everyone ready for the purple version :p
[01:03] <imbrandon> ;)
[01:03] <troy_s> kwwii:  its that fire breathing dragon of deadline work that rubbed off.
[01:03] <mhb> troy_s: I think you're doing more than a mortal can
[01:03] <kwwii> I promise you, living this close the dutch border...purple haze is in my brain
[01:03] <mhb> troy_s: work, that is
[01:03] <imbrandon> hahahahahahah kwwii
[01:04] <imbrandon> if i had a job offer in eu i would be gone in a half sec
[01:04] <imbrandon> lol
[01:04] <troy_s> mhb, blah.  ubuntu is far more important than most people are aware just yet.
[01:04] <kwwii> troy_s: honestly, everyting you do is at least, very public :-) and to be honest, I think that was the point
[01:05] <imbrandon> troy_s: did you get my msg about the staging site ?
[01:05] <troy_s> it is the first, and perhaps only, distribution that A) has actually hit critical mass and B) has virtually unlimited funds C) is going to actually put FOSS on the map.
[01:05] <troy_s> imbrandon, yes.  can't wait.
[01:05] <imbrandon> i got busy with some other stuff here at the house and it will be delayed about ~12 hours from whaty i told ya to begin with but still very much on track
[01:06] <troy_s> yep
[01:06] <imbrandon> kk
[01:06] <troy_s> once that is up, we can start looking at workflow
[01:06] <mhb> troy_s: unlimited funds?
[01:06] <imbrandon> yea
[01:06] <troy_s> i know that drupal has some keyword filters which permits things like "Propose" then sort from it.
[01:06] <troy_s> mhb, yes.
[01:06] <mhb> troy_s: why do you think so?
[01:07] <troy_s> mhb, well... the founding person is a bit of a philanthropist.
[01:07] <imbrandon> troy_s: yea plus i pride myself as a php hacker ( its how i feed my family ) so anything we need customized i can probably do, if not i can find out how ;P
[01:07] <troy_s> mhb, and his business model has already generated more momentum than any open source project that i can think of to date.
[01:07] <troy_s> imbrandon, you absolutely rock.
[01:08] <troy_s> imbrandon, hopefully it will lighten the load on me with manual imagemagick commands.
[01:08] <imbrandon> kwwii: wanna do something for me personaly as a favor ? no time limmits or anything
[01:08] <troy_s> it is hard enough pouring over all the stuff and gathering it up.
[01:08] <imbrandon> troy_s: yea thats the idea;)
[01:08] <mhb> troy_s: sure, but I don't think he (or Canonical) has unlimited funds
[01:08] <troy_s> mhb, well... 560million alone in the bank is a ridiculous amount of money coming in per day on interest alone.
[01:08] <troy_s> of course, you figure he donated a good 100 million of that.
[01:09] <mhb> troy_s: I just hope Ubuntu is generating enough money for Canonical
[01:09] <troy_s> mhb, i believe mark has publically said that he only cares if ubuntu breaks even.
[01:09] <imbrandon> troy_s: yea but 10mill a day going out in shipit is expensive too ;)
[01:09] <troy_s> or rather, is happy if it does.
[01:09] <troy_s> imbrandon, i think shipit was covered by the initial 10million investment.
[01:10] <imbrandon> troy_s: no shipit is in the hole
[01:10] <troy_s> imbrandon, and pretty sure it is relatively inexpensive in terms of yield.
[01:10] <imbrandon> true
[01:10] <troy_s> imbrandon, you have a link?
[01:10] <imbrandon> troy_s: somewhere i would have to dig it up
[01:10] <imbrandon> but yea
[01:10] <troy_s> i would be interested in it.
[01:10] <imbrandon> its something like 10 mil for breezy and 50 mil for dapper
[01:11] <troy_s> i think the bottom line is that the way mr. shuttleworth is spending his money has started to result in some yields.
[01:11] <imbrandon> thus far
[01:11] <troy_s> i mean, sun getting into bed with ubuntu is a pretty impressive feat.
[01:11] <imbrandon> right
[01:11] <troy_s> interesting.  i would like to see the link.
[01:11] <imbrandon> yea lemme dig it up , when i do i'll email it to ya
[01:11] <mhb> troy_s: but - somehow the coupling with closed-source companies troubles me
[01:11] <kwwii> imbrandon: it depends on what it is :p
[01:12] <troy_s> mhb, in case you didn't know, i believe that the whole java open source thing was really set afire thanks to that involvement.
[01:12] <troy_s> etc.
[01:12] <imbrandon> mhb sun is very open about alot of things infact the niagra t1 proc" they got into bed with" is becosue its "opensource" hardware ;)
[01:12] <troy_s> and sun has their new head cheese which is probably another reason.
[01:12] <mhb> don't believe in sun that much
[01:13] <mhb> last time I was on a sun conference
[01:13] <imbrandon> mhb: they are the only company that 100% releases the specs on their processors ;)
[01:13] <imbrandon> "opensource" hardware if you will
[01:14] <imbrandon> thats what made it possible for ubuntu to come to the T1's before anyone else
[01:14] <mhb> (opensolaris, to be exact) - the presentation of the Sun's delegates looked like: This, this and this can not be translated by the community, because it's closed
[01:14] <mhb> and there was a whole lot of things that was like this
[01:14] <kwwii> openfirmware
[01:14] <kwwii> hehe
[01:15] <imbrandon> but as a whole they are tons better than most companies even the likes of nvidia and such
[01:15] <kwwii> "open"firmware
[01:15] <imbrandon> heheh yea on apples kwwii  ;)
[01:15] <kwwii> they did do a good job in the end
[01:15] <mhb> imbrandon: no doubt about it
[01:16] <kwwii> but sun is messed up
[01:16] <kwwii> I worked with a team of their developers to make their linux themeing
[01:16] <imbrandon> lol
[01:16] <mhb> imbrandon: I look on things in a different way - it`s not enough for me that the company is "more open" than another
[01:16] <imbrandon> mhb: maybe not but i take what i can get , i'm not a gnu pureist
[01:17] <kwwii> anyway, about time for bed
[01:17] <mhb> kwwii: goodnight
[01:17] <kwwii> imbrandon: you wanted something from me?
[01:17] <imbrandon> gnight kwwii sleep well
[01:17] <mhb> imbrandon: me neither
[01:17] <mhb> imbrandon: but I think the Ubuntu approach is clear
[01:17] <imbrandon> kwwii: i can ask you tomarrow if i dont get it done myself ;P
[01:17] <troy_s> Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth has admitted that he spends a significant sum of his own money developing the Linux distribution.
[01:17] <troy_s> "Ubuntu is expensive," he said, in an interview with German news site Heise, published on Monday. "The distribution costs me a few million dollars a year."
[01:17] <kwwii> about 10 until now, from what I understand
[01:17] <troy_s> openfirmware is bloody dumbass.
[01:18] <kwwii> hehehehehe
[01:18] <troy_s> i like the idea of linux bios though... very powerful.
[01:18] <troy_s> might have to buy me a tyan mobo
[01:18] <kwwii> a friend of mine, who is making a lot of money on openbios (based on the same specs) is doing that working for nasa, google, and others
[01:18] <imbrandon> troy_s: yea i was thinking the same thing , i like efi too though
[01:18] <imbrandon> kwwii: nice
[01:21] <kwwii> efi is evil
[01:21] <kwwii> but anywasy
[01:21] <kwwii> anyway
[01:21] <kwwii> I am going to bed now
[01:21] <imbrandon> lol ;)
[01:22] <imbrandon> gnight man sleep well
[01:22] <kwwii> whether I like it or not
[01:22] <kwwii> thanks, see you tomorrow
[01:25] <imbrandon> ok whos the inkscape expert ( /me is tooo used to PS )
[01:31] <mhb> hehe :o)
[01:31] <mhb> Ken is
[01:32] <imbrandon> heh figures ;)
[01:34] <mhb> imbrandon: I wish I could help you, but I'm the non-artist around here :o)
[01:35] <mhb> imbrandon: I do stuff like you - php pays my small student bills
[01:35] <imbrandon> mhb: me also ( i can do graphics when needed ) but i'm the codemonkey ;P
[01:36] <imbrandon> hehe np, i was just working on some new headers for buntudot.org and was trying to "color shift" them in inkscape like i do in PS but i just said screw it and exported it to my PS
[01:36] <imbrandon> and did it there ;P
[01:37] <mhb> imbrandon: heh
[01:37] <mhb> imbrandon: I wish Adobe was more "open"
[01:38] <mhb> imbrandon: at least the stuff could work on Ubuntu
[01:38] <imbrandon> heh i have used OSX for years and payed a pretty penny for my PS programs ;P
[01:38] <mhb> imbrandon: It's damn way too expensive
[01:38] <mhb> imbrandon: at least for us here in the Czech Rep.
[01:39] <imbrandon> i just wish the gimp guys would get the act togather i would love to use it but they say they are as good as ps but its not and you cant convince them of it
[01:39] <imbrandon> mhb: i pay $700 USD for my copies
[01:41] <mhb> imbrandon: that's a whole lot of money here
[01:41] <mhb> :o)
[01:42] <imbrandon> ;) here too but i find it worth it for myself
[01:42] <mhb> imbrandon: two desktop computers or a really old car :o)
[01:42] <imbrandon> mhb: bout the same here
[01:42] <mhb> imbrandon: many students just steal it and pay for it only when they get paid for their work
[01:42] <imbrandon> heh
[01:49] <mhb> imbrandon: it's sad that there are so many software pirates
[01:49] <mhb> imbrandon: at least here
[01:49] <imbrandon> yea
[01:50] <mhb> imbrandon: the mentality here is like: operating system for free? No thanks - I already have my Windows for free.
[01:51] <mhb> imbrandon: most of my friends are this way
[01:51] <imbrandon> heh
[01:51] <imbrandon> but buggy and insecure
[01:54] <mhb> imbrandon: but it plays all EXE files and games ... the arguments are always the same
[01:55] <mhb> imbrandon: my schoolmates laughed once that they tried a Linux distribution, they downloaded a simple EXE file and the system asked them what should it do with it?! :o)
[01:55] <mhb> imbrandon: sad experiences ...
[01:56] <imbrandon> heh
[02:00] <mhb> imbrandon: the Photoshop CS2 for Windows costs more than $1000 here
[02:54] <Viper550> Don't worry, I'm on the quest to make sure Green is not used in Edubuntu Edgy in any way!
[02:54] <klepas> someone pinged me?
[02:55] <Viper550> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/EdgyProposals/Edubuntu
[02:55] <mhb> Viper550: what?
[02:55] <Viper550> Working on a new theme for Edubuntu
[02:55] <mhb> Viper550: guess what's my favourite wallpaper ...
[02:56] <Viper550> The Green Chalkboard of Doom?
[02:56] <mhb> Viper550: exactly - but here it is called edubuntu-chalkboard.png
[02:56] <Viper550> I know, that's my nickname for it, don't worry, Edgy won't include it in that form
[02:57] <mhb> Viper550: I like it because it reflects Ubuntu philosophy and it actually means something
[02:57] <Viper550> I did make a blackboard version today as a possible predecessor...
[02:57] <mhb> Viper550: black is not my favourite colour for background, though
[02:58] <Viper550> Don't worry, I hope on taking it on a similar are direction to Ubuntu Edgy...
[02:58] <Viper550> Wondering why I hate that green chalkboard?
[02:58] <mhb> I guess you don't like the colour
[02:58] <Viper550> It's because the GTK theme and the wallpapers colors clash
[02:59] <mhb> but it's really soft on the eyes, that's an extra point for me
[02:59] <Viper550> The only time Green and Red look good together are during Christmas, and on Roses
[02:59] <Viper550> Make sure you back it up when you go up to Edgy, Edgy won't have it, I know this for a fact
[03:00] <mhb> Viper550: well, I think I have some dapper cd's handy .o)
[03:00] <mhb> Viper550: I hope you are cooperating with the Edubuntu artwork team
[03:00] <Viper550> Umm, packages.ubuntu.com, edubuntu-artwork on Dapper
[03:00] <Viper550> Yes I am, I did port EdubuntuColors to use Candido (a new GTK engine we might be using for Edgy)
[03:01] <mhb> that's good to hear :o)
[03:01] <Viper550> http://candido.berlios.de/pages/engine.php (For the engine)
[03:01] <Viper550> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/EdgyProposals/Edubuntu (for the theme)
[03:02] <imbrandon> Viper550: you are too high strung, and you cannot know it for a fact as 1) its not totaly decidecd by you and 2) the finaly edgy artwork is not out, now you can work twords it not being included but choose your words carefully
[03:02] <Viper550> I say might as we've recently begun discussing it on the list
[03:03] <Viper550> It's a PROPOSITION, I know how those work!
[03:03] <imbrandon> Viper550: yes i follow the list and your proposals closely but "i know for a fact it wont be included" is just dead wrong and i emplore you to choose your words closely and tone it down a bit
[03:05] <imbrandon> he has a good spirtit but gos about things all wrong
[03:05] <mhb> imbrandon: he seems to decide things on his own
[03:06] <imbrandon> mhb: exaactly
[03:06] <mhb> imbrandon: I guess he needs to join (and follow) the community more
[03:06] <imbrandon> ;)
[03:06] <mhb> but I'm not the guy who should tell him
[03:06] <imbrandon> sure , why not, its everyones job to ;)
[03:07] <imbrandon> anyhow i'm afk for a while , gonna finish up some of this stuff
[03:07] <mhb> imbrandon: sure, see you later
[03:11] <imbrandon> sad thing is he dont even use ubuntu
[03:42] <Who_> troy_s: you still wanting that summary email?
[03:44] <Who_> Has anyone here got any idea how to render some spilled water (I.E a small puddle on a flat surface) in SVG!?
[03:44] <Who_> beacuse your help would make me a happy man :)
[03:46] <Who_> for example some mercury droplets
[03:51] <mhb> Who_: sorry, no idea :o)
[04:02] <troy_s> who
[04:02] <troy_s> check that older textures page
[04:02] <troy_s> you will see a couple of water ripples
[04:03] <troy_s> Who_, copy?
[04:05] <mhb> does anyone know if Ubuntu/Kubuntu has an official artwork for slideshows, presentations and the like?
[04:05] <troy_s> ???
[04:06] <troy_s> slideshows?
[04:06] <troy_s> imbrandon inkscape is very good... i would encourage you learn it.
[04:08] <mhb> troy_s: what's that weird?
[04:08] <troy_s> i don't know what you mean mhb
[04:09] <mhb> troy_s: well, presentations
[04:09] <Who_> mhb: you mean a presentation template?
[04:09] <mhb> Who_: yeah
[04:09] <troy_s> oh yes
[04:09] <troy_s> of course
[04:09] <troy_s> openoffice's presentation
[04:09] <troy_s> loads powerpoint too etc.
[04:10] <mhb> troy_s: I wanted to know if there'an official template or something like that
[04:10] <troy_s> i believe so...
[04:10] <mhb> troy_s: because I'm not skilled with oo.org at all :o)
[04:10] <troy_s> did you check the templates?
[04:10] <troy_s> its pretty simple.
[04:10] <troy_s> just a tool.
[04:10] <troy_s> back in  afew.
[04:11] <mhb> troy_s: what templates?
[04:11] <mhb> troy_s: there's too many templates in Ubuntu ... wiki templates etc.
[04:11] <troy_s> have you started presenter?
[04:11] <troy_s> when you start, it gives you the option of loading a 'template'
[04:12] <mhb> troy_s: yeah, there's something
[04:12] <mhb> troy_s: thanks
[04:13] <mhb> troy_s: I tried to create one by hand, but the program is definitely not "me-friendly" :o)
[04:14] <mhb> well, that's it for tonight
[04:14] <mhb> :o)
[04:14] <mhb> good night to you all
[04:16] <mhb> :o)
[04:16] <mhb> like talking to myself ...
[04:29] <Who_> troy_s: I'm taking photos for Blubuntu (just for fun, really :P)
[04:30] <Who_> Honey is good, but the wrong colour, shower gel is the right colour and a bit too runny - ketchup is too think (AND the wrong colour). There may be a future in glucose syrup with colouring :P
[04:31] <Who_> but it doesn't givce any kind of 'wrapping' "now guys, the central idea for the theme is 'glucose syrup with colouring'" just doesn't seem to work :P
[04:48] <troy_s> lol Who_
[04:53] <Who_> troy_s: I miss being a kid when you didn't have to justify this kind of stuff :P
[04:54] <troy_s> laf
[04:54] <troy_s> hilarious
[05:25] <troy_s> whostein
[05:25] <troy_s> Who_,
[05:25] <troy_s> the links you had for blubuntu were changed by someone, just to let you know.
[05:26] <troy_s> i think someone slushed the old incoming into /evaluation
[05:27] <Who_> :S ouch!
[05:28] <Who_> troy_s: can I put it back!?
[05:28] <troy_s> well incoming is purposefully unstable...
[05:29] <troy_s> perhaps we need a /ThemeTeam dir
[05:29] <troy_s> i would put it somewhere stable.
[05:29] <Who_> it seems to still be at Incoming
[05:29] <Who_> jees, just noticed it is 4:30!
[05:30] <troy_s> hrm... link?
[05:30] <Who_> ...? I was talking about the time!
[05:31] <Who_> (AM)
[05:40] <troy_s> i know
[05:40] <troy_s> or do you mean can you put the time back?
[05:40] <troy_s> lol
[05:49] <Who_> troy_s: do you need this list tonight?
[05:50] <troy_s> Who_, no when you get around to it.
[05:50] <Who_> cool, it's bedtime!
[05:50] <troy_s> Though I might ask that you take the lead and establish the "ThemeTeams" dir
[05:50] <troy_s> and stick all three theme team related things into it.
[05:50] <Who_> and I've got to go and clean up a bunch of trays with radox, honey and other crap on them before I sleep
[05:50] <Who_> yea, will do :)
[05:53] <troy_s> lol
[05:53] <troy_s> lol
[05:55] <troy_s> Incoming is being purged.
[05:55] <troy_s> Fixing like 100000000 links
[05:55] <troy_s> etc.
[05:59] <Who_> Good work!
[06:00] <Who_> I read that you got some design books for Ubuntu...what are they?
[02:39] <mhb> hey everyone
[05:51] <Viper550> I noticed that the new Murrine engine got released today
[05:58] <troy_s> so?
[05:59] <troy_s> Viper550,  you really need to watch the way you phrase things friend.
[05:59] <Viper550> oh, okay
[05:59] <troy_s> Some of your posts and wiki entries come off as being derogatory towards the participants, and I am fielding complaints.  Ok?
[05:59] <troy_s> Sound fair?
[06:00] <troy_s> Think of it as a learning exercize -- it will force you to figure out exactly what it is you are criticizing.  For example, there are a selection of very good artworks out there that are green, so it isn't simply the fact that someone uses green that makes it seem off.
[06:00] <troy_s> It is more complicated.
[06:00] <troy_s> Anyways, now you know.
[06:00] <troy_s> Thanks for listening.
[06:01] <Viper550> You know, my comments about the wallpaper actually date back to when Dapper RC1 came out? I didn't know the whole story until today
[06:01] <troy_s> That's fine.
[06:01] <troy_s> Comments are fine.
[06:01] <troy_s> The problem with _your_ comments is that they are A) ill informed (green isn't a good enough reason -- ask Picasso)
[06:01] <troy_s> B) They are rather adversarial and derogatory at times.
[06:02] <troy_s> C) They don't offer any constructive additional criticism that lends towards the future.
[06:02] <troy_s> Okie?
[06:02] <Viper550> Okay, so the theme looked a bit weird because the wallpaper used clashed with the theme colors, would that be a better statement?
[06:02] <troy_s> The mailing list isn't a forum to flog your own personal work.
[06:02] <troy_s> Yes, but I would think it through even more than that.
[06:03] <troy_s> Find samples of successful works that use the same colour scheme, etc.
[06:03] <troy_s> There are MANY aspects to art that result in something being positive or negative.
[06:03] <troy_s> A short list might be: Colour application, Composition, Societal Trends, etc.
[06:03] <troy_s> Colour composition changes as society adjusts its trends.
[06:03] <troy_s> As does compositional trends.
[06:03] <troy_s> etc.
[06:04] <troy_s> Understand?
[06:04] <Viper550> http://www.linuxshots.com/main.php?g2_itemId=552 (this is my example, Silver and Blue look very nice together)
[06:04] <troy_s> Yes, but all you offer are colour changes.
[06:04] <troy_s> You really need to spend more time
[06:04] <troy_s> developing
[06:04] <troy_s> Don't just pinch off some simple colour tweaks and a window border.
[06:04] <troy_s> Look at the whole package.
[06:04] <troy_s> Have you seen the work that Who_ has done for his ThemeTeam?
[06:04] <troy_s> It's massive
[06:05] <troy_s> It has research.
[06:05] <troy_s> Etc.
[06:05] <Viper550> Erm, I would look...if the wiki wern't down!
[06:05] <troy_s> You post countless colour combinations that aren't difficult to do at home.    But you need to get a more objective stance.
[06:06] <troy_s> And learn your craft if you are going to call yourself an artist.
[06:06] <troy_s> Perhaps learn an art term and build a theme around its motivations.  It would be a good learning exercise.
[06:07] <troy_s> Remember this:  The mailing list is for the DEFAULT installation of Ubuntu primarily.  ThemeTeams are still allowed to post, but if the clutter gets to be too much, they will get assigned their own lists -- and this means less exposure.
[06:07] <troy_s> MANY important folks are on that mailing list, so know that when you post.
[06:07] <troy_s> Ok?
[06:08] <Viper550> I know all this
[06:08] <troy_s> Then why would you post off-the-cuff comments that offend folks?
[06:10] <troy_s> Viper550, ?
[06:10] <Viper550> About the usplash, I actually liked that new design! It was pretty neat
[06:10] <troy_s> That's fine.
[06:11] <Viper550> And on Edubuntu (which sparked this whole thing)
[06:11] <troy_s> Well, no
[06:11] <troy_s> I had a bunch of complaints from prior to your last Edubuntu outburst.
[06:12] <Viper550> From what?
[06:12] <troy_s> I mean you wanted to be artist in chief for Xubuntu and you didn't even know the primary developer NOR do you even run *buntu.
[06:12] <troy_s> etc.
[06:12] <troy_s> Not from that instance in particular, but from people who believe you post too much and you simply post colour schemes.
[06:12] <troy_s> I admire your energy, but you need to focus and work your craft if you want to be taken seriously.
[06:13] <Viper550> Back in the earlier Dapper cycle, I had so many Splash Screen propositions
[06:13] <troy_s> Post fewer posts that are A) more well thought out (not offensive), B) More strategically planned, etc.
[06:13] <troy_s> That's fine.
[06:13] <troy_s> Working for a company in creative graphic design is the same thing.
[06:13] <troy_s> Don't get so personally attached to your work.
[06:13] <Viper550> And, we were all mad about what happened with the ugly Usplash artwork
[06:13] <troy_s> Not exactly, that was a lack of organization.
[06:13] <troy_s> We have good organization now, so we need you to help reduce the clutter.
[06:14] <Viper550> Yeah, but it at least led to some great propositions
[06:14] <troy_s> No amount of complaining will yield good propositions.
[06:14] <troy_s> Organization and development will.
[06:15] <troy_s> And remember, 'ugly' is a purely relative term.
[06:15] <troy_s> One person's meat is another person's poison.
[06:15] <troy_s> Temper your posts.
[06:16] <troy_s> Read sabdfl's last post at his blog about the 'clutter' on the mailing list.
[06:16] <troy_s> Take it to heart.
[06:16] <Viper550> where is his blog?
[06:16] <troy_s> If you don't, there will be moderated mailing lists implemented with stricter guidelines.
[06:16] <troy_s> www.markshuttleworth.com
[06:17] <troy_s> So don't break the system by flogging it with rubbish, OK?  Respect it.  Be a constructive part of it.  Learn from it.
[06:17] <Viper550> Umm, his site is down too
[06:17] <troy_s> Yes, his is hosted by all of the ubuntu server end I believe.
[06:17] <Viper550> Yes, all of the Ubuntu related sites are down, this might be a problem...
[06:18] <troy_s> It will be resolved soon I believe.
[06:18] <troy_s> Anyways, I have said my piece directly to you, and I hope you will respect where it is coming from.
[06:18] <Viper550> Okay...
[06:18] <troy_s> Sound fair?
[06:19] <Viper550> Okay, when it's all back up, it's going to be a little different out of me!
[06:19] <troy_s> Because I don't intend this to be a personal attack.
[06:19] <troy_s> I want you to channel your energy into more constructive work.
[06:20] <troy_s> And perhaps limit yourself to one post per week initially -- so that you are forced to focus on your work.  Try something new.  Then offer a weekly summary or something?
[06:20] <troy_s> Examine the work that Who_ has laid out for the ThemeTeams... maybe try learning from his structure.  Learn from the existing structure that the ubuntu-art team is trying to establish.
[06:20] <troy_s> Etc.
[06:20] <troy_s> Sound like a good plan?
[06:21] <Viper550> Unless it's a good comment towards something posted, of course!
[06:21] <troy_s> Even then, perhaps show restraint.
[06:21] <troy_s> Think about it for a day before you reply.
[06:21] <troy_s> Write up something in a text editor and EDIT it to make sure you don't make your previous mistakes.
[06:22] <troy_s> Something to fix that nasty trend that makes people mad and unhappy with the list.
[06:22] <Viper550> okay
[06:22] <troy_s> Great.
[06:22] <troy_s> Thanks for listening Viper.
[06:22] <troy_s> It's appreciated.
[06:22] <Viper550> Now, to contribute more to my real distro...
[06:22] <troy_s> phew
[06:22] <Viper550> Just kidding, I don't even have mailing lists subscribed to for Fedora!
[06:23] <troy_s> Perhaps if you are a strong supporter of Fedora, you should dedicate yourself to that.
[06:23] <troy_s> Grr.
[06:24] <mhb> what can I say ...
[06:25] <mhb> I guess: "Let's hope he understood what you were telling him."
[06:34] <troy_s> mhb, I think I was pretty clear
[06:34] <troy_s> mhb, and I haven't spoken directly to him before about it.
[06:51] <troy_s> greetings Who_
[06:51] <Who_> hiya
[06:52] <Who_> troy_s: know what is wrong with ubuntu.com?
[06:54] <troy_s> Word has it that you broke it all.
[06:54] <troy_s> Everyone has been looking for you Who_
[06:54] <Who_> why?, who?
[06:54] <troy_s> Everyone...
[06:54] <troy_s> from all over the globe
[06:54] <troy_s> They think you broke the wiki, the broke ubuntu.com
[06:54] <troy_s> then
[06:55] <troy_s> It's all over bbc.com
[06:55] <Who_> I dis ...muhahahah
[06:55] <troy_s> ;)
[06:56] <Who_> though I do have 44 lsplash variations that could well break the wiki when I upload the contact sheet :P
[06:56] <troy_s> Lol.
[06:56] <Who_> if it ever comes back to life
[06:56] <troy_s> Frank wants good and loose right now for proposals, so we should try and keep to his lead.
[06:56] <troy_s> Ship them to me.
[06:57] <troy_s> You got a jabber account with gaim or something?
[06:57] <Who_> oh, no, I forgot about that
[06:57] <troy_s> launchpad is down too... i suspect all of canonical is down.
[06:57] <Who_> does my gmail account work as a gchat accoun or do I need to register separately
[06:57] <troy_s> of course
[06:57] <Who_> all of canonical is down
[06:57] <troy_s> just plug in this info:
[06:58] <troy_s> http://www.google.com/support/talk/bin/answer.py?answer=24073
[06:58] <troy_s> You are running gaim correct?
[06:58] <Who_> indeed :)
[06:59] <Who_> that I zip these up and email them though
[07:00] <troy_s> you could do that too.
[07:01] <troy_s> hit gaim up and you can ship me a contact sheet that way
[07:03] <Who_> at 44 it might be time to start applying KISS to this :P
[07:05] <troy_s> LAF>
[07:05] <troy_s> I would suggest the following:
[07:05] <troy_s> Break the work down into compositional elements.
[07:06] <troy_s> Meaning only do a single variant (the best one you can find) for a single composition.
[07:06] <troy_s> For example, if you are playing with two variables -- say the Ubuntu text logo and the Ubuntu circle of friends
[07:06] <troy_s> Do ONE up with Both elements.
[07:06] <troy_s> ONE with just the logo
[07:06] <troy_s> ONE with just the test
[07:06] <troy_s> text even
[07:07] <troy_s> And perhaps repeat the cycle with a different stylistic shape for whatever you are doing (for example, different pill size /location for the lsplash)
[07:07] <troy_s> That way you have distinct directions to follow along.
[07:07] <troy_s> There isn't much sense in trying the same ideas with different backgrounds, just assume someone can visualize from your textural references.
[07:07] <troy_s> Treat it like a mix and match creation station sort of thing :)
[07:07] <troy_s> with me?
[07:12] <troy_s> Who_, you emailing me that contact sheet?
[07:12] <Who_> I just can't stop making them... cos I keep getting new ideas
[07:12] <Who_> I'll make an interim one now
[07:13] <Who_> hmm...I keep getting authentication failures with gtalk
[07:15] <troy_s> did you fix the extra bits at the bottom?
[07:15] <troy_s> its that second set of items that permits it to work... namly that TLS and talk.google.com stuffs.
[07:15] <troy_s> that's usually where folks go wrong.
[07:17] <troy_s> Who_, any luck?
[07:17] <Who_> troy_s: I'll check again, but i though I'd done it
[07:17] <troy_s> check that lower stuff.  :)(
[07:18] <troy_s> and make sure it is set to jabber etc... :)
[07:18] <Who_> troy_s: yea, it's all there. I wonder whether the googlemail vs gmail thing has an effect
[07:18] <troy_s> what is googlemail?
[07:18] <troy_s> i thought googlemail was gmail.
[07:19] <troy_s> Who_, give me an email.;
[07:20] <Who_> troy_s: indeed it is, the addresses are interchangeable at the moment (googlemail emerged because of trademark issues in the UK - us UK people who got accounts after a certain date must have googlemail accounts)
[07:20] <Who_> gaim works now, had to change server to googlemail.com
[07:20] <troy_s> how strange.
[07:20] <troy_s> didn' tknow there was a difference
[09:00] <Viper550> Still down...when will this end?
[09:01] <mhb> Viper550: don't think this is the correct channel where you should ask
[09:01] <mhb> Viper550: I don't think
[09:02] <Viper550> I know, but still, even worse the Wiki is down, so I can't post the new beta of Tropic I just finished
[09:04] <Viper550> At least I found somewhere to upload it... http://rapidshare.de/files/26757073/Tropic_Beta_3.tar.gz.html
[09:04] <mhb> Viper550: AFAIK beta version of a program/theme is a state where it is feature complete, ready to get tested by the community
[09:06] <Viper550> The first 2 were "internal" betas, now I'm going to let the public (the #ubuntu irc channel) try it out!
[09:06] <mhb> Viper550: hm, don't think this is how it works
[09:06] <Viper550> how does it work? It didn't say on the down wiki that we couldn't do public betas
[09:06] <mhb> Viper550: but every so-called "beta version" was almost a brand new version
[09:07] <Viper550> Because there were so many changes, I keep on satisfying all the complaints, like moving to lower saturation, changing the wallpaper, and now I've changed it to use a brand new GTK engine!
[09:09] <Viper550> Okay, even though the file name says "beta3", I'm calling this 1.0, and will probably reupload it with that name
[09:10] <mhb> so you think you have it finished?
[09:10] <Viper550> Yes, for the GTK theme and Metacity at least
[09:11] <Viper550> and the Wallpaper too....
[09:11] <Viper550> http://rapidshare.de/files/26757828/Tropic_Version1.tar.gz.html
[09:11] <mhb> Viper550: I think you should do more "internal testing" before you try to present a new version to the people
[09:12] <mhb> Viper550: just internally, in the theme team
[09:13] <Viper550> Then, we hit a time-based flaw
[09:13] <Viper550> The whole "The System is Down" problem we've got here
[09:14] <mhb> Viper550: maybe it's a hint you shouldn't post a new version right away
[09:15] <Viper550> At least it's been a good little bit since the last one
[09:15] <mhb> Viper550: instead of posting so many new versions on the ML and wiki, maybe what you need to do is organization
[09:16] <Viper550> Hmm, Organization...
[09:16] <mhb> Viper550: how many people are members of the Tropic Theme-Team?
[09:16] <Viper550> 1
[09:17] <mhb> Viper550: if you get more people there, you can criticise the work you do without informing the core Ubuntu artists
[09:17] <mhb> Viper550: a good piece of art is not finished after a few minutes ... it's hard work, too.
[09:18] <Viper550> Are any of the other people in here active?
[09:19] <mhb> Viper550: I think the people here already know about your Tropic effort ... maybe you should search for volunteers elsewhere on the Internet
[09:20] <mhb> Viper550: there are many young and good artists there
[09:21] <Viper550> Maybe until the servers come back up, I'll just go work on Uslab and think about this later...have a nice rest of your day!
[09:31] <mhb> kwwii: good evening
[09:31] <mhb> kwwii: I'm glad to see you :o)
[09:33] <kwwii> hi mhb
[09:34] <mhb> kwwii: I played with the shutdown screen yesterday
[09:34] <mhb> kwwii: until 4 in the mornign
[09:35] <kwwii> mhb: hehe, I know that feeling
[09:37] <mhb> I tried to 1. start from the work you have done 2. try to make the shutdown dialog a bit similar to the Ubuntu shutdown dialog
[09:38] <mhb> kwwii: please, have a look: http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shutdownedgy1sk7.png
[09:38] <mhb> kwwii: I used Oxygen icons, although a bit "incorrectly", because there are no icons for shutdown/restart yet
[09:40] <kwwii> mhb: well, there is an icon for shudown
[09:40] <kwwii> boah, that looks killer :-)
[09:41] <mhb> I can put it on the Kubuntu ideas wiki, if you approve it
[09:42] <kwwii> that would be a great idea
[09:42] <kwwii> I'd love it :-)
[09:43] <mhb> kwwii: I'll do more variations when I have time
[09:44] <kwwii> mhb: sounds great
[09:59] <mhb> kwwii: I can't even find where I can attach a file to the wiki :o)
[09:59] <mhb> kwwii: it seems I don't like wikis too
[09:59] <mhb> kwwii: or the other way around
[10:08] <kwwii> attachment:yourfilename
[10:08] <kwwii> then, when you save the changes instead of a link for the file, there will be a link which allows you to upload the file(s)
[10:11] <mhb> kwwii: OK, done. Take a look, please.
[10:14] <kwwii> except for the fact that the buttons looks pretty nasty, it is nice
[10:14] <kwwii> did you export them directly from the SVGs at that size or scale them up with gimp?
[10:14] <mhb> kwwii: it's all SVG
[10:14] <mhb> kwwii: just the background is not
[10:15] <kwwii> wow
[10:15] <kwwii> that is nasty
[10:15] <kwwii> and we should fix the svg
[10:17] <mhb> kwwii: I'll attach the SVG version to the wiki
[10:18] <kwwii> mhb: cool :-)
[10:18] <Sk_Bco> what's the link please?
[10:20] <mhb> Sk_Bco: what link?
[10:22] <Sk_Bco> mhb: the link to the wiki page where one can see your file
[10:22] <kwwii> http://wiki.kubuntu.org/Artwork/Incoming/Kubuntu-Edgy-Ideas
[10:22] <Sk_Bco> thanks
[10:27] <mhb> kwwii: SVG link added
[10:28] <kwwii> mhb: I think it was just my browser, scaling the pic that made it look bad
[10:28] <kwwii> on my other system the buttons look much better
[10:30] <mhb> Sk_Bco: so, what do you think?
[10:33] <Sk_Bco> which pic on the page are we talking about right now?
[10:35] <kwwii> the shutdown screen mockup
[10:37] <Sk_Bco> On first sight the buttons look a bit nasty indeed
[10:37] <Sk_Bco> but I think that's because they are different from the other sets of buttons
[10:41] <mhb> Sk_Bco: hm ...
[10:41] <mhb> Sk_Bco: they are in the same icon set (kwwii?)
[10:44] <Sk_Bco> that's your final version?
[10:46] <mhb> Sk_Bco: no, of course not
[10:46] <mhb> Sk_Bco: but I'm not the one who made the icons
[10:47] <Sk_Bco> I see
[10:48] <kwwii> the icons are from the oxygen set
[10:53] <Sk_Bco> How about adding some color? Just some color, not too much ...
[10:54] <Sk_Bco> ... maybe coloring the parts of the icons that are white
[10:54] <Sk_Bco> according to the actions ... e.g. red for "shutdown"
[10:55] <Sk_Bco> But in general I think it is nice
[10:59] <kwwii> cool
[11:05] <kwwii> about time for bed
[11:05] <Sk_Bco> same here
[11:05] <Sk_Bco> Goodnight! :-)
[11:05] <Sk_Bco> Bye!
[11:07] <mhb> kwwii: goodnight
[12:01] <Guitarhero> Hey where can I get the ubuntu title font?
[12:04] <mhb> Guitarhero: in Ubuntu?


[00:46] <b1tbkt> how to add a machine to juju?
[00:56] <marcoceppi> b1tbkt: What do you mean?
[00:59] <b1tbkt> i have maas & juju. In maas, I've commissioned an additional (bare metal) machine but that is not reflected, for instance, in 'juu status'
[01:00] <marcoceppi> b1tbkt: You need to deploy a service. Juju will only add a machine in it's status once it has a reason too. Otherwise it leaves the machine out there in case something else uses it
[01:00] <b1tbkt> ahh okay. makes perfect sense. tks!
[01:00] <marcoceppi> So try deploying something and Juju should then requisition that node for use and it'll thus show up in the status
[01:01] <b1tbkt> is juju communicating with maas then to identify available resources?
[01:02] <b1tbkt> or, i should say, is it relying on maas to know about additional (machine) resources?
[01:04] <marcoceppi> b1tbkt: Yes, it relies on the provider to give it a machine
[01:05] <marcoceppi> b1tbkt: It's been forever and a day since I used MAAS and Juju so I don't know the answer, but I assume Juju gives an error when MAAS has no more machines available
[01:08] <b1tbkt> hrmm. okay.  i appreciate the insight. any particular technical reason that you haven't used both together lately or just circumstance?
[01:09] <marcoceppi> b1tbkt: Purely circumstance, I dont' have enough hardware to throw at MAAS at the moment. I hope to use it more in the coming months when I get more physical hardware to play with
[01:10] <b1tbkt> ack. tks. just test driving it now for the first time. fortunately I've got a spare dozen boxes at my disposal. definitely a high barrier to entry w/ maas.
[01:11] <marcoceppi> b1tbkt: cheers! Good luck
[01:13] <b1tbkt> tks. only other problem so far is that ipmi startup doesn't seem to be working quite right. credentials get populated inside the server ipmi interface. not sure what's going on there but it's likely a problem for another day ;)
[03:48] <mfisch> is this the correct way to deploy local changes to a charm?  juju deploy --repository=trunk local:precise/tracks  I ask because it's not seeing my changes
[04:14] <marcoceppi> mfisch: is trunk a directory? Could you run a tree instide of the trunk directory?
[04:15] <mfisch> my charm is in here, trunk/precise/tracks/
[04:15] <mfisch> it looks right to me based on the docs
[04:15] <mfisch> I destroyed everything and will try one more time
[04:15] <marcoceppi> mfisch: cool, just checking. You can drop the precise/ from the local:precise/tracks
[04:16] <marcoceppi> just local:tracks should be sufficient since the series is determined by the environment.yaml file
[04:16] <mfisch> ok
[04:16] <mfisch> I should see pass or fail in about 2 more mins
[04:17] <marcoceppi> When you run the deploy, it should confirm that it's using the local repository over the charm store (cs)
[04:17] <marcoceppi> by confirm, I mean it should just echo back that it's doing so, not actually prompt you
[04:17] <mfisch> marcoceppi: I'm fixing your review comment, it was a dumb mistake
[04:18] <mfisch> INFO Searching for charm local:precise/tracks in local charm repository: /home/mfisch/experiments/tracks/trunk
[04:19] <marcoceppi> So, /home/mfisch/experiments/tracks/trunk has the following structure: /home/mfisch/experiments/tracks/trunk/precise/tracks; where tracks is the charm?
[04:19] <mfisch> yes
[04:19] <marcoceppi> cool
[04:20] <mfisch> see this is stil wrong cd tracks-2.2.1
[04:20] <mfisch> it should be a mv blah and then cd tracks
[04:20] <mfisch> 18 unzip tracks.zip
[04:20] <mfisch> 19 mv tracks-${VERSION} tracks
[04:20] <mfisch> 20 cd tracks
[04:21] <marcoceppi> So, the charm you're deploying doesn't reflect what was actually deployed?
[04:21] <mfisch> it does not appear that way
[04:21] <mfisch> I'm sshed in and rechecking
[04:21] <marcoceppi> Are you deploying to local or another cloud provider?
[04:21] <mfisch> marcoceppi: cloud provider
[04:22] <mfisch> marcoceppi: wait
[04:22] <marcoceppi> hum, and you said you're destroying the environment between tests?
[04:22]  * marcoceppi waits
[04:22] <mfisch> yeah
[04:22] <mfisch> so the install file here looks ight
[04:22] <mfisch> right
[04:22] <mfisch> unzip tracks.zip
[04:22] <mfisch> mv tracks-${VERSION} tracks
[04:22] <mfisch> cd tracks
[04:22] <marcoceppi> so the plot thickens
[04:22] <mfisch> but the logs
[04:22] <mfisch> here's the unzip finishing
[04:22] <mfisch>  extracting: tracks-2.2.1/vendor/query_trace.tar.gz
[04:23] <mfisch> and then ERROR: + cd tracks-2.2.1
[04:23] <mfisch> thats the old code
[04:23] <marcoceppi> pastebin the whole charm.log file
[04:23] <marcoceppi> It's late(early) here, but another pair of eyes might help
[04:24] <mfisch> yeah its getting late here even (Colorado)
[04:27] <mfisch> marcoceppi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5717798/
[04:28] <mfisch> marcoceppi: the old code did cd tracks-${VERSION} which is what I see in the log
[04:30] <marcoceppi> huh. The output indicates that it's using your local version
[04:30] <marcoceppi> If you're around tomorrow I can try to deploy your latest changes from here and try to replicate the issue.
[04:30] <marcoceppi> It's about time for me to retire to the bedroom
[04:31] <mfisch> marcoceppi: sure, I'll be here thanks
[04:32] <mfisch> marcoceppi: I'm going to sign off too, I have baby duty
[04:32] <marcoceppi> mfisch: cheers, good luck with that
[04:47] <AskUbuntu> Extending Apache charm to include Apache Modules | http://askubuntu.com/q/282660
[15:22] <bcmfh> Has anyone succesfully bootstrapped juju with devstack?
[15:36] <marcoceppi> bcmfh: I tried about 5-8 months ago and wasn't able to get it to work quite right
[15:47] <bcmfh> marcoceppi, yeah, I'm a bit hampered by my lack of Python understanding, I'll try the ask-ubuntu site
[17:44] <ahasenack> hey guys, are there no quantal i386 builds of juju-core (golang)? Why?
[17:44] <ahasenack> https://launchpad.net/~juju/+archive/devel/+packages only amd64
[20:27] <orospakr> hey, where is the agent source code for the golang version of juju?  I'm looking around in the bzr branch lp:juju-core, but not finding anything eminently obviously the agent.
[20:27] <orospakr> s/agent source code/source code of the agent/
[20:27] <marcoceppi> orospakr: I think the agent code is part of the whole juju-core package
[20:28] <orospakr> alright, I figured it might be that :)
[20:28] <marcoceppi> orospakr: I could be wrong but that's kind of how the py-juju version works. A lot of the go-juju guys hang out in #juju-dev - you might be able to get more detailed answers there
[20:33] <orospakr> another nub question: it seems like the canonical (heh, see what I did there) representation of your deployment structure lives inside the first instance.  can it be dumped and recreated on a different cloud provider (or on a different account on the same provider?)
[20:34] <marcoceppi> orospakr: It can, it's not currently a part of the core juju project, but there's a side project called juju-jitsu which adds commands like jitsu export and jitsu import which take a snapshot of your running environment and allow you to move that structure to another provider. The downside is: any data in the previous cloud doesn't move with your deployment.
[20:35] <orospakr> fair enough. :)
[20:35] <marcoceppi> Depending on your deployment, a lot of time it's pretty easy to wrap the jitsu export/import to also sync your data
[20:36] <orospakr> what's the general strategy for handing backups of juju managed services that store persistent data? is there a common pattern charm writers tend to use for enabling data export?
[20:38] <marcoceppi> Well
[20:44] <marcoceppi> orospakr: There are charms like cheph, nfs, etc that can handle pooled storage across multiple nodes. But as it stands now we don't quite have a backup charm or anything in core that handles this. I know there's a lot of talk about making a "backup charm" that would
[20:44] <orospakr> okay, fair enough! :)
[20:44] <marcoceppi> be configured to know what data to pull and where to store it, say S3 or something else. Then know when to pull it down
[20:45] <orospakr> it would have to cooperate with the charms that are responsible for things that store data, like mongodb, postgresql, etc.
[20:46] <marcoceppi> orospakr: Right, so it'd probably be a subordinate charm that would reside on these units and can then be configured by either the parent charm (mongodb, psql, mysql, etc) or via a config option of what paths/files to back up
[20:46] <orospakr> that sounds like a great design to me!
[20:46] <marcoceppi> So, immediately it's a pretty large/robust charm. Which is why it hasn't really been tackled yet I assume
[20:47] <marcoceppi> I hope this next comming up cycle we can spend some time figuring out how to handle things like backups and the like
[20:50] <orospakr> so, if the deployment structure is basically sticky (excepting any clever use of jitsu import/export) to the single cloud account, what is the usual method for having a separate staging instance of all of your stuff discrete from production? or is the notion that most of the logic is in charms themselves, so having a duplicate deployment isn't such a big deal?
[20:51] <marcoceppi> orospakr: it's the latter, almost all the logic is in the charms. So you can juju deploy -e stating your_service which would be identical to juju deploy -e production your_service, where the staging environment might be a private MAAS, OpenStack, or even your local machine and production is any other cloud
[20:54] <orospakr> hmm, nice.
[20:55] <orospakr> alright, here's a doozy: what is the AGPL understood to consider as a derivative work?  particularly, are charms considered derivative work of juju?
[20:56] <marcoceppi> orospakr: IANAL and I think SpamapS knows  better than I do, but No, charms are not considered derivative works of Juju
[20:56] <orospakr> ok! IANAL is understood ;)
[20:57] <marcoceppi> Considering charms have their own licesnces, I'm going to go with not derivative works
[20:58] <SpamapS> marcoceppi: IANAL too btw :)
[20:58] <SpamapS> charms have their own licenses
[20:58] <marcoceppi> SpamapS: true, but I feel you have a far better grasp on the licensing aspect
[20:59]  * marcoceppi bows
[20:59] <SpamapS> they are like python scripts.. python scripts are not derivative of python
[20:59] <marcoceppi> Cool, that's what I figured
[21:18] <orospakr> I figured i'd besk ask; some interpreters of GPL license versions consider API consumption to be a derivative work
[21:20] <orospakr> hm, is it possible to use more than one cloud provider in a single juju environment?
[21:21] <marcoceppi> orospakr: Not at the moment. There's talk of cloud federation as being a core feature for juju but I dont' think any work has started on it
[21:22] <orospakr> hm, cool.
[21:23] <orospakr> does juju-jitsu work with the golang version of juju?
[21:25] <marcoceppi> orospakr: not sure, but I'm going to venture a guess of no
[21:32] <lifeless> SpamapS: ^
[21:35] <SpamapS> orospakr: some bits of jitsu might work fine w/ juju-core (the go port) but most will not as they directly call the python API's from juju.


[01:59] <RAOF> Ok. That'll do for the morning.
[02:02] <bluesabre> :)
[12:58] <mlankhorst> hm xserver-xorg-input-synaptics has a breaks on kde-config-touchpad (<< 0.8.1-2~) because of https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=722058
[14:03] <infinity> mlankhorst: So, looks like the saucy version of synaptics probably needs to be backported to precise, and then the Breaks relaxed to match the right version.
[14:04] <mlankhorst> yeah I already did that
[14:04] <infinity> mlankhorst: Which part of "that"?
[14:05] <mlankhorst> I asked rtg to sponsor :)
[14:05] <rtg> infinity, arges and I are looking at it
[14:06] <infinity> rtg: Ta.
[14:06] <arges> yup
[14:09] <arges> mlankhorst: bug 1328266 ... is this just valid for precise?
[14:09] <mlankhorst> think so, it's because trusty was merged against debian's branch again
[14:09] <mlankhorst> and picked up the breaks from there
[14:10] <arges> mlankhorst: also can you update the bug with the SRU template please?
[14:13] <arges> mlankhorst: did this patch get refreshed: synaptiks-0.8.1/debian/patches/kubuntu_fix_udev_property_access.patch ?
[14:15] <mlankhorst> I grabbed the saucy package, i think it only removed the crashing parts
[14:16] <mlankhorst> oh the timestamp is different, but seems to be the same patch afaict
[14:19] <mlankhorst> copied the sru template from the other bug :P
[14:22] <arges> mlankhorst: so are these two things needing sponsoring related?
[14:22] <arges> or independet
[14:23] <mlankhorst> related
[14:23] <mlankhorst> because otherwise you can't install even the fixed synaptiks
[14:23] <arges> mlankhorst: can you explain a bit more? or if its in the bug let me know where I can read that
[14:26] <mlankhorst> erm xserver-xorg-input-synaptics had a breaks on << -2, but the upload is for -1ubuntu1.3
[14:26] <mlankhorst> so even fixing the synaptiks bugs left it uninstallable
[14:26] <mlankhorst> which is why a second upload was needed
[14:30] <arges> mlankhorst: ok i'll have to review this a bit later. can you just post the proper debdiffs to the bug to make it easier?
[14:30] <arges> in case infinity wants to take a look at those
[14:30] <arges> : )
[14:31] <mlankhorst> they get autogenerated after upload :P
[16:43] <arges> mlankhorst: still around?
[18:11] <jdstrand> fyi, the cinder update is just what was in proposed with the patch for http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-2248-1/
[20:26] <jdstrand> fyi, uploaded a neutron update to trusty-proposed that has the corresponding fix for neutron that was in the earlier cinder update
[20:30] <jdstrand> that's the one ^
[21:29] <jdstrand> ok, I rejected the previous neutron and uploaded a new one


[08:28] <admcleod> bdx: hello
[08:30] <magicaltrout> f* me I'm tired.  So I guess time travel falls into the same bucket
[08:36] <magicaltrout> but at the same time, cloning only works, if I can merge at the far end ;)
[08:37] <kjackal> magicaltrout: you could outsource your kids to your other you!
[08:38] <magicaltrout> i could simplify it and just get a nanny :P
[08:38] <magicaltrout> that said... the mrs wont even let us get a cleaner because... and I quote "our house is too dirty"......
[08:56] <admcleod> magicaltrout: may i make a suggestion
[08:57] <magicaltrout> sure admcleod! ;)
[08:59] <admcleod> actually i better not
[08:59] <magicaltrout> does it involve me replacing my kids, mrs or both? ;)
[08:59] <admcleod> yes. :D
[08:59] <magicaltrout> yeah
[08:59] <magicaltrout> its tempting
[08:59] <admcleod> i do know several people who clean their houses before their cleaner comes
[09:00] <magicaltrout> yeah its nut
[09:00] <magicaltrout> s
[09:00] <magicaltrout> like, our house isn't bad, its just lived in, when you have 2 kids.  so why would a cleaner expect anything else?
[09:01] <admcleod> you're not in london right? i could give you the contact for this russian cleaner... help you with all your problems...
[09:02] <magicaltrout> hehe, maybe when they get really annoying. anyway, I have 7 days off, er, i mean hard work in the states, so I don't care ;)
[09:02] <admcleod> ah so thats the problem. your travelling causes you to neglect your cleaning duties. well, fair enough
[09:03] <magicaltrout> its not far off. I've been told off  quite a few times just after getting home for the state of the house, or the kids etc
[09:03] <magicaltrout> which is impressive as I've usually be in the US
[09:03] <admcleod> and the very next headline i see (and no, its not buzzfeed) is: 'Intelligent People Stay Up Late, Are Messy And Love To Swear'
[09:04] <magicaltrout> lol
[09:04] <magicaltrout> the mrs goes to bed about 9:00pm and tells me off for saying bloody and knackered as they are supposedly "swear words"
[09:04] <admcleod> so, this russian cleaner i was talking about
[09:05] <magicaltrout> she asked yesterday if at a parents evening I'd be upset with the kid if the teach said she keeps saying stuff is "bloody knackaered"
[09:05] <admcleod> hahaha
[09:05] <magicaltrout> don't see the problem myself
[09:06] <admcleod> get her a frankie boyle bluray
[09:06] <admcleod> infact just take her to scotland
[09:06] <magicaltrout> hehe
[09:09] <admcleod> ...or like, basically outside
[09:10] <magicaltrout> you'd think growing up in Leeds and Bradford she'd be used to that stuff
[09:10] <magicaltrout> clearly not, thats the problem with private education
[09:10] <admcleod> maybe the problem is you're not wearing the right rugby league shirt
[09:10] <admcleod> while you swear
[09:11] <magicaltrout> hehe
[10:59] <lovea> Hi, I'm using Juju 2.0 and MAAS 2.0. I have a MAAS server and 5 commissioned nodes (physical). I've configured a maas provider for Juju. If I juju bootstrap one of my physical nodes is utilised in maas to create the controller. That node is then no longer available for any other juju deployment. In my case that is a serious piece of kit for just a juju controller. Is there any way I can "juju deploy --to" the controller node to co-locate other charms?
[12:54] <jcastro> fginther: have you tried just deploying --to 0?
[12:55] <rick_h_> jcastro: it was a different user as I read it
[12:55] <rick_h_> jcastro: and they ahve to juju switch admin first
[12:55] <rick_h_> jcastro: to get machine 0 to deploy to
[12:57] <jcastro> oh
[12:57] <jcastro> so if you add-model foo
[12:57] <jcastro> then you can't deploy to 0?
[12:58] <rick_h_> jcastro: no, the state server is only shown/listed in the admin model since that is the controller
[13:01] <jcastro> and a --to 0 intends to put something in the admin model?
[13:01] <jcastro> I guess I am just confused on why I can't have model foo on the same physical hardware as the admin model?
[13:02] <rick_h_> jcastro: so each model has its own machines for what's deployed into that model
[13:02] <rick_h_> rather than show 0, the bootstrap/state server on every model, it's only on the controller one
[13:02] <jcastro> ahhhh, I didn't know that
[13:02] <rick_h_> especially since you can give users access to models
[13:02] <rick_h_> you don't want them adding stuff to your machine 0
[13:05] <jcastro> ok so basically the admin model needs a dedicated machine
[13:15] <fginther> jcastro, I'm missing something, did you intend to ping me?
[13:16] <jcastro> I was just discussing your issue with rick_h_
[13:19] <fginther> jcastro, sorry, do you have the bug # handy so I can have a closer look?
[13:19] <rick_h_> jcastro: it was a different person, not fginther
[13:19] <fginther> rick_h_, ah, I'll move on then :)
[13:20] <jcastro> oh sorry, I misread my irc client when you joined right as someone was asking that
[13:36] <kjackal> kwmonroe: Hey Kevin, is this bundle going to be depricated? https://jujucharms.com/apache-processing-mapreduce/
[13:41] <jcastro> marcoceppi: got a minute? I'd like for us to unpromulgate the old mediawiki bundles
[13:42] <jcastro> mramm tried one yesterday and the scalable one for sure doesn't work anymore
[13:42] <mramm> true that
[13:44] <marcoceppi> jcastro: sure, eco-wx
[14:01] <mramm> jcastro, marcoceppi, arosales:  Is there a bug for the mysql charm's brokenness?
[14:02] <mramm> (which is what caused mediawiki-scalable to be broken)
[14:04] <jcastro> not sure
[14:04] <jcastro> iirc it was a feature we used
[14:05] <jcastro> and then was unsupported in that charm
[14:05] <jcastro> so I think it's more of the bundle not following the feature set of the charm
[14:07] <arosales> mramm: I think we need to set the mem % on the media wiki bundle
[14:07] <jcastro> that's a different bug
[14:07] <arosales> And possible change the reference example
[14:07] <jcastro> the master/slave config in that bundle is what isn't working
[14:07] <jcastro> the mem% thing only affects mysql on local containers
[14:08] <arosales> Oh I guess we should define brokenness
[14:09] <arosales> I think mem would affect small mem machined
[14:09] <arosales> mramm: what are the symptoms?
[14:10] <jcastro> the database doesn't come up at all in the bundle
[14:10] <jcastro> because it's trying to set up mysql in a master/slave configuration
[14:11] <arosales> Gotcha, and sounds like there is no bug for that
[14:13] <arosales> Should we consider changing the example to spark/zep or observable swarm
[14:17] <arosales> I guess swarm doesn't work in LXC
[14:41] <mramm> the mem percentage issue seems interesting also
[14:42] <mramm> lxd/local is definitely the first use case most people touch
[14:42] <mramm> arosales: definitely we shouldn't use an example for getting started that is broken
[14:42] <mramm> that will not get us good results
[14:48] <marcoceppi> mramm: I tried fixing that, because Juju does silly things on upgrade it got nix'd
[14:53] <mramm> marcoceppi: thanks for trying!
[14:53] <mramm> marcoceppi: just trying things in the order that I think newbies would, and reporting issues as I run into them
[14:54] <jcastro> mramm: your bug is http://pad.lv/1294334
[14:56] <jcastro> arosales: the mysql master/slave thing isn't a problem in the get-started, it's the lxc memory bug that is
[14:56] <jcastro> the master/slave feature isn't in the bundle featured on get-started
[14:57] <jcastro> all: it seems some people have tab completion in the juju betas, and some do not
[14:57] <mramm> marcoceppi: I don't see anything about juju upgrade issues blocking a fix in the bug. Can you provide a bit more detail, what is the upgrade/juju problem with the proposed fix?
[14:57] <jcastro> if you don't have working tab completion in juju 2.0 betas, please see this bug: http://pad.lv/1588403
[14:57] <jcastro> mramm: it was discussed on the list, let me find it and put it in the bug
[14:59] <mramm> tab completion is working for me (at least for second level commands) on a completely fresh juju install (from the PPA), will try from Xenial repo in a min.
[15:02] <marcoceppi> mramm: customers deploying mysql today under the defaults would get a change to the way the charm runs, which was viewed as unacceptable
[15:03] <jcastro> marcoceppi: is tab completion working for you?
[15:03] <marcoceppi> jcastro: yes
[15:05] <kjackal> Hey lazyPower, the ELK bundle under review is not pointing to logstash https://jujucharms.com/logstash/trusty/0
[15:05] <kjackal> Here is the bundle http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lazypower/charms/bundles/elk-stack/v1/view/head:/bundle.yaml
[15:05] <lazyPower> kjackal - i think that was proposed long before any of the stack started landing
[15:06] <lazyPower> i'll get that updated though, is that the only thing you see?
[15:06] <kjackal> I havent checked the rest of the charms
[15:06] <kjackal>  let me see
[15:06] <lazyPower> looks like Es can use a bump
[15:07] <lazyPower> i think thats it
[15:07] <lazyPower> oh and kibana ;)
[15:08] <kjackal> Do you want to update them now or should we wait for the next round (next week)?
[15:08] <lazyPower> honestly can we push it back to next week?
[15:09] <lazyPower> i've had a lot of stuff land and i've got a fire to put out with etcd
[15:09] <cory_fu> lazyPower: Sure, kjackal can just nack the review ;)
[15:09] <lazyPower> cory_fu i'm good with that. ta
[15:11] <mramm> jcastro:  on a completely fresh xenial container -- no tab completion so not sure what's wrong on my laptop.  Haven't tried the new desktop yet.
[15:12] <aisrael> jcastro: no tabcompletion here either
[15:12] <lazyPower> same
[15:19] <jcastro> ok I'm going to ask for feedback
[15:29] <petevg> Hi, magicaltrout. I'm taking a look at the saikuanalytics-enterprise charm in the review queue. I'm following the README, and the action that generates a license seems to execute, but I get an error when logging in ("could not find license"). Are there any steps to fetching the license that are missing from the README?
[15:30] <petevg> (Looking at logs, I see the error about not being able to find the license, but not necessarily any errors related to fetching it in the first place ...)
[15:59] <magicaltrout> good find on the tab completetion jcastro !
[15:59] <magicaltrout> it makes me sad everytime I press tab
[16:00] <magicaltrout> petevg: don't worry about it for now, I'm gonna get 3.9 into the review queue and prod someone to do it in a quicker fashion as it will have much improved juju/big data integration once my drill stuff is finished
[16:08] <petevg> magicaltrout: Sounds good. I look forward to seeing the new charm :-)
[16:10] <magicaltrout> you and me both! :P
[16:11] <magicaltrout> although 4.0 later in the year will be the stuff. Nice new React.js responsive UI, pluggable datasources and UI elements etc
[16:11] <magicaltrout> thats like the holy grail ;)
[16:12] <lazyPower> big data with a front end that doesn't look like java?
[16:12] <lazyPower> \o/
[16:13] <magicaltrout> hehe. Well our UI is starting to get a bit old, its all Backbone and HTML, but web tech moves so fast its a pain to keep up
[16:13] <magicaltrout> but we also wanted to build a new setup built upon server and UI OSGI modules, so people can write OSGI compliant 3rd party plugins and just have the app register them
[16:14] <magicaltrout> which will make extendability and updates much nicer
[16:14] <lazyPower> not bad obama
[16:14] <magicaltrout> because you'll be able to do OSGI updates from a maven repo over the wire
[16:14] <magicaltrout> rather than downloading a new 700mb distro
[16:22] <lazyPower> Thats a win
[16:28] <roadmr> hey folks, is there a "cron" charm? say I want an existing unit with e.g. apache to run a cron entry to generate some static content. Do I have to write a custom charm for that or is there something I can just deploy --to the unit with the command to run as a "juju set" parameter?
[16:34] <lazyPower> no but that sounds like a great subordinate service. the ability to provide it with a crontab and have it bolt that into the unit
[16:35] <lazyPower> my initial grep of the charm store yields no results that look relevant. i think you've found some golden territory roadmr
[16:36] <roadmr> \o/ /o\
[16:36] <roadmr> thanks lazyPower
[17:28] <arosales> jcastro: I have a bug opened for tab completion let me find the number
[17:29] <arosales> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1582018
[17:29] <mup> Bug #1582018: Tab completion for file system paths and in general for stock Ubuntu cloud image <bash-completion> <charms> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1582018>
[18:05] <LiftedKilt> turns out juju add-unit {charm} -n {#} --to lxc:{machine} creates one lxc container and then tells maas it needs physical machines for the rest
[18:22] <natefinch> fwereade: think I figured it out. Or rather, dpb1_ figured it out - the error message looks like it's coming from the local machine agent, but since it's actually an error in state, it must be on the controller, and passed back to the machine agent, which logs it without indicating it's logging an error from an API call to the controller :/
[18:22] <dpb1_> let's hope so
[18:27] <alexisb> natefinch, ug
[18:27] <alexisb> though good on the progress
[19:39] <kjackal> kwmonroe: Hey Kevin, is this bundle going to be depricated? https://jujucharms.com/apache-processing-mapreduce/
[19:40] <kjackal> cory_fu you might know as well ^
[19:41] <cory_fu> Yes, it is
[19:41] <cory_fu> In favor of hadoop-processing
[19:41] <kjackal> hadoop processin
[19:41] <kjackal> let me see
[19:41] <cory_fu> That's the Bigtop bundle
[19:42] <kjackal> it the apache-processing-mapreduce going to be removed from the store?
[19:43] <kjackal> Panagiotis has a reference on the bundle on his paper and I just want to make sure his link points to something
[19:44] <kjackal> cory_fu?
[19:46] <cory_fu> How is it being referenced?  cs:bundle/apache-processing-mapreduce?
[19:46] <cory_fu> I think we were considering unpromulgating it, but leaving it in the ~bigdata-charmers namespace
[19:48] <kjackal> hm... I will try to rephrase that part so that it references our bigdata landing page then....
[19:48] <kjackal> I think this is the safest....
[20:36] <kjackal> jog: I am with the bigdata team. What is the customer impact of the "Hadoop install hooks fail behind restricted network" ?
[20:37] <kjackal> jog: the issue is already in the "doing" state, I wonder who is deploying the bundle in restricted environments. DO we have a customer?
[21:01] <mbruzek> cmars: Is there a way to list the terms I have already accepted?
[21:04] <cmars> mbruzek, juju list-agreements
[21:04] <mbruzek> []
[21:05] <mbruzek> cmars: then how was I able to deploy a local charm with terms for loren-ipsum/1 ?
[21:05] <cmars> mbruzek, locally deployed charms do not check terms
[21:05] <cmars> mbruzek, terms are required by the charmstore
[21:05] <mbruzek> Oh I see
[21:09] <jog> kjackal, any enterprise installation is most certainly going to have their data center behind a firewall
[21:11] <kjackal> jog: understood, I was hoping for a specific enterprise name where we failed tp deploy
[21:11] <kjackal> jog: how did you discover the fault in that bundle?
[21:12] <jog> kjackal, even Canonical's own data center is an example... the system test hardware the cdo-qa team uses is on a restricted IS provided network
[21:15] <kjackal> I see, thank you. Again reviewing all our bundles to filter out all similar isues in in doing "state"
[21:53] <mbruzek> cmars: Do you have a minute?
[21:53] <cmars> mbruzek, sure
[21:53] <mbruzek> cmars: Is it possible to make a resource "optional" ?
[21:54] <mbruzek> We are trying to charm push a charm with one optional resource and it is complaining that we don't give it any resources
[21:55] <cmars> mbruzek, hmm that's a good question. I'm not too familiar with the finer details there. i can definitely see the usefulness in that
[21:55] <mbruzek> cmars: That is right you implemented terms
[21:55] <cmars> alexisb, who's around today who would know about mbruzek's resources question? ^^
[21:56] <mbruzek> cmars: Who would know... ahh
[21:56] <alexisb> wallyworld or natefinch-afk can answer mbruzek q
[21:57] <mbruzek> wallyworld: We are trying to "charm publish" a charm and the error message is telling us we must have both resources referenced when we publish.  The last resource is optional
[21:58] <cmars> mbruzek, i suppose you *could* do some hacky thing like rc=/dev/null but that's less than ideal
[21:58] <cmars> well, on publish, it's not too bad to do that
[21:58] <mbruzek> cmars: Yes that is what kwmonroe and I were thinking, but less than ideal.
[21:58] <cmars> it's unixy
[21:58] <wallyworld> mbruzek: it may be that at the moment, all resources do need to be defined
[21:59] <wallyworld> from memory, i don't think optional resources were considered in the requirements
[22:00] <mbruzek> wallyworld: thank you
[22:00] <cmars> mbruzek, i can see both sides to this.. on one hand, you might have forgotten to specify the resource when you publish the charm
[22:00] <wallyworld> can you raise a bug?
[22:00] <cmars> mbruzek, on the other, you might want it to be optional
[22:00] <cmars> for the first case, i'd appreciate the error, for the second, i wouldn't
[22:00] <mbruzek> cmars: Yes I see both sides of the coin.
[22:01] <cmars> maybe the resource ought to declare default behavior?
[22:01] <cmars> or that it's optional
[22:01] <mbruzek> cmars: wallyworld: well we coded the charm to have the second resource optional
[22:02] <mbruzek> we worked around this problem by pushing zero length files, but that feels weird.
[22:02] <cmars> mbruzek, true, but the flip side is, you don't get empty files when you forget resources. i think we'd need an optional: attribute in the metdata
[22:03] <mbruzek> cmars: wallyworld: I will raise a bug and we can think about the best way to implement this
[22:03] <wallyworld> sounds good
[22:03] <cmars> mbruzek, cool, thanks. just thinking out loud..
[22:50] <mbruzek> wallyworld: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1588555
[22:50] <mup> Bug #1588555: Can resources be optional? <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1588555>
[22:50] <wallyworld> mbruzek: ty
[22:52] <rick_h_> mbruzek: answered
[22:53] <rick_h_> wallyworld: ^
[22:54] <mbruzek> thanks rick_h_
[23:00] <magicaltrout> why is the mongodb charm running such an ancient version of mongo? operational reasons or just no one got around to updating it?
[23:18] <lazyPower> magicaltrout - thats the case yes :(
[23:18] <lazyPower> i'm the listed maintainer but i have not touched mongodb in quite some time
[23:19] <lazyPower> and it was in a state of mostly working in smaller cluster but constantly a headache at scale. With reactive it should turn into a  much nicer charm to maintain, and we can model the individual components of the charm as top layers instead of a single catch-all multi-role charm
[23:19] <lazyPower> which in all honestly makes the charm code abysmal to read through
[23:19] <magicaltrout> no problem lazyPower i just noticed it was well old
[23:19] <magicaltrout> i'll see if I can get around to it at some point
[23:19] <lazyPower> yeah, i really want someone to adopt that one and give it a good home
[23:19] <lazyPower> i've been a crappy parent of that charm
[23:20] <lazyPower> sorry :(
[23:20] <magicaltrout> I don't have much of a use for it, but clearly there is a lot of mongo use in the real world
[23:20] <magicaltrout> be ashame to put people off because its 2.4
[23:20] <lazyPower> our resident mongo master has been busy hacking on snappy related stuff
[23:22] <magicaltrout> I was saying to SaMnCo today as well, we(everyone where possible) should make a bigger effort to make the charms centos/rhel compatible as well
[23:22] <magicaltrout> for the enterprisey folk. It was a sticky issue with the guys we were having lunch with
[23:22] <lazyPower> matt was just looking at a MP for charmhelpers from cloudbase introducing the centos abstractions for charmhelpers.core.host
[23:22] <lazyPower> its getting close but has some wrap up fixes needed
[23:22] <magicaltrout> cool
[23:23] <lazyPower> i really want to try to start the migration process from charmhelpers into a trim charms.host lib and thinks of that nature
[23:23] <lazyPower> extracting them and making it all travisy and publish frequently if the tests pass
[23:23] <lazyPower> but thats a way bigger project than i'm making it out to be
[23:23] <lazyPower> and i have a habit of wanting to take on the world every time i get a second
[23:24] <magicaltrout> aye
[23:24] <magicaltrout> i have that problem
[23:24] <lazyPower> what can i say, we <3 this stuff
[23:24]  * lazyPower wanders off to brew some tea
[23:24] <magicaltrout> http://spicule.co.uk/2016/06/02/apache-drilll-juju.html brain dump on Apache Drill charm
[23:27] <magicaltrout> started it at 8am and finished at midnight with a 12 hour gap in between
[23:27] <lazyPower> not bad
[23:28] <lazyPower> impressive actually
[23:29] <magicaltrout> to many l's in drill
[23:29] <magicaltrout> arse
[23:29] <magicaltrout> that was an 8am error ironically
[23:29] <magicaltrout> lack of morning coffee
[23:36] <lazyPower> What did hemmingway say? write intoxicated, edit sober.
[23:37] <magicaltrout> aye,he had a very valid point
[23:47] <aisrael> lazyPower: indeed
[23:47] <lazyPower> ;)
[23:48] <lazyPower> didnt know you were lurking around over there aisrael o/
[23:48] <lazyPower> all unpacked?