[13:57] <mhall119> dpm: and anybody else who wants to join the roundtable: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/158f0544c1a2389ef0a0fd77846d67028b645e4b?authuser=1&hl=en
[13:58] <dpm> thanks mhall119, setting up another device to try to join in
[14:01] <mhall119> popey: want to join the roundtable hangout?
[14:03] <rschroll> your on
[14:04] <kunal_> yes, able to see
[14:04] <dinkometalac> only michael?
[14:04] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/158f0544c1a2389ef0a0fd77846d67028b645e4b?authuser=1&hl=en
[14:10] <mhall119> dpm: popey:  either of you joining?
[14:10] <dpm> mhall119, trying now
[14:11] <rschroll> Followup on file access from yesterday
[14:11] <rschroll> I asked on ubuntu-security, and was pointed to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Specifications/ApplicationConfinement/Manifest
[14:11] <rschroll> This looks like what mhall was suggesting
[14:11] <rschroll> not what rickspencer was talking about
[14:12] <rschroll> So, what's the deal here?
[14:13] <GuidoPallemans> Is it currently possible to download files to disk? how will this be implemented?
[14:14] <rschroll> This is still in development, though?
[14:14] <rschroll> For the purposes of the app showdown, do I just worry about the manifest?
[14:15] <GuidoPallemans> ok, thanks!
[14:15] <popey> mhall119: on the weather app design call
[14:15] <GuidoPallemans> sounds cool
[14:15] <mhall119> kenvandine
[14:15] <GuidoPallemans> haven't seen it yet
[14:15] <GuidoPallemans> ill look for the session
[14:16] <GuidoPallemans> can't seem to find it
[14:17] <mhall119> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/meeting/21909/foundations-s-touch-download-service/
[14:17] <GuidoPallemans> Maybe some sessions should only be half an hour long, this way you can still have you and your colleuge on the same session and there will be more questions :D
[14:18] <rschroll> I have a bunch of sorta specific questions; don't know if they're appropriate here
[14:18] <mhall119> rschroll: may as well ask
[14:18] <GuidoPallemans> oh, yeah, it's not in appdev
[14:18] <GuidoPallemans> bookmarked it though
[14:19] <rschroll> How do you use Arguments with qmlscene?  I get both args for the app and qmlscene mixed together.
[14:19] <rschroll> http://askubuntu.com/questions/336083/how-to-use-arguments-in-qml-without-getting-qmlscene-arguments
[14:20] <mhall119> rschroll: can't you just ignore them?
[14:21] <rschroll> yes, but I have to decide whether an input is for me or for qmlscene
[14:21] <rschroll> It works, but I thought I was missing a better way
[14:24] <rschroll> Another specific question: Is it possible to style the options in a ValueSelector?  I can copy the code for it and apply the styling I want, but that seems ugly.
[14:25] <rschroll> Is there a way to modify the styling of an existing selector, or to subclass the ValueSelector?
[14:25] <mhall119> rschroll: might be better to ask in #ubuntu-touch where the sdk developers reside
[14:25] <rschroll> ok
[14:37] <GuidoPallemans> Will there be an API that enables you to do an action every x minutes while your app isn't running? Like checking if you have a mail or a message, or...
[14:37] <kunal_> I was wondering if we have any contacts related API
[14:39] <GuidoPallemans> ok, thanks
[14:40] <kunal_> I mean dialog box for choosing contact
[14:41] <kunal_> ok
[14:42] <GuidoPallemans> the nexus 4 dropped in price today, will this have any effect on the prizes of the showdown?  ^^
[14:42] <ThankyouMrMiner> mhall119: your fan that is reflected in the picture frame is hypnotizing me :)
[14:42] <mhall119> better?
[14:43] <ThankyouMrMiner> not sure lag ...
[14:44] <ThankyouMrMiner> yes much better :)
[14:45] <GuidoPallemans> I don't want my shitty gitHub client on everybody's phone!
[14:46] <GuidoPallemans> hahaha
[14:46] <wellsb> lol
[14:50] <GuidoPallemans> It's available immediately actually
[14:50] <mhall119> immediately?  It used to take youtube a while to process
[14:51] <popey> I look forward to going back and re-living mhall119's grandma joke
[14:51] <mhall119> :P
[14:51] <rschroll> mhall119: Thanks for the help!
[14:59] <GuidoPallemans> will some people of the design team be joining us now?
[15:05] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/a420dc3ec7461b0ef0d414fd55625834325d12ad?authuser=1&hl=en
[15:05] <GuidoPallemans> up
[15:05] <netcurli> we can see you
[15:06] <GuidoPallemans> have you guys seen the sidebar component? What are your thoughts on that?
[15:06] <swordfish> Yep...
[15:06] <GuidoPallemans> the sidebar component is visible in the file manager
[15:07] <mhall119> GuidoPallemans: only in desktop mode
[15:08] <GuidoPallemans> indeed, but I always include a button to view the contents of the sidebar, is this ok from a design point of view?
[15:17] <aquarius> I missed the first part of this talk :(
[15:18] <WebbyIT> aquarius, they are recorded, so you can watch later on youtube ;)
[15:18] <kunal_> do we have iconography ? how icons should look like for toolbar and else where
[15:19] <aquarius> There was suggestion from katie at the end about how the gradient-background approach is really intended for the ritual apps. Is there guidance on what non-ritual apps (i.e., most of them) should be doing? I saw something about "the medium theme" -- is that avaialble?
[15:19] <aquarius> also, I agree with kunal_ -- having a standard set of icons for common toolbar actions -- refresh, about, restart, new game, that sort of thing -- would be really nice
[15:20] <jonobacon> QUESTION: I would love to see apps use realistic components (e.g. a notepad app look like a real notepad)...Apple does this well - does the team have any guidance on this?
[15:20] <jonobacon> more specifically, can we get some guidelines for how to use realistic looking visual elements
[15:21] <aquarius> agreed with mhall119 -- there are lots of examples of how the design team have chosen the visual design for specific apps, but not *why* those were chosen. :)
[15:21] <aquarius> jonobacon, just say no to skeuomorphism ;)
[15:21] <GuidoPallemans> on the phone, the sidebar is hidden, but accessible through a menu button (at least in my app)
[15:22] <justForQuestions> QUESTION:  are they any guide lines for when a user should use a Coverflow or a listview or a gridView or a Path/SVGView  ect
[15:23] <justForQuestions> example taking the listview in music app and having in coverflow ect
[15:24] <justForQuestions> dynamically changing.
[15:24] <aquarius> ahem. "Do, well, whatever you want!" is not guidance, katie ;-)
[15:25] <GuidoPallemans> not much engineers use pinterest though
[15:25] <aquarius> GuidoPallemans, should do more, though. Pinterest is an *excellent* source of design inspiration.
[15:26] <jonobacon> mhall119: I think what we could do with help from the design team on is a set of guidelines for how people can add visual flourish without dumping a gradient in there
[15:26] <jonobacon> can we ask the team to commit to making some guidelines for this
[15:26] <aquarius> agreed with jonobacon.
[15:26] <jonobacon> otherwise I worry we will end up with a tonne of gradient apps :-)
[15:27] <Qb1t3r> What happened with the "Locally Integrated Menu - LID" idea for desktop? LID is dead for convergence apps? How the desktop menu will correspond to the phone/tablet menu in convergence app?
[15:27] <aquarius> we will. Because currently it's easy to have (a) a grey app or (b) a gradient, and that's it. We are not at all free to lay out the app how we want -- the header has to be at the top, with a stock font size, etc -- so colour is one of the big ways to differentiate.
[15:29] <GuidoPallemans> QUESTION I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but I saw the locker-type lock (where you highlight numbers by sliding around a circle), and thought it was really nice, will this be implemented?
[15:29] <jonobacon> mhall119: I think the challenge app devs face is that they need a set of more prescriptive guidelines from the design team - general approaches design are hard for people who don't have design experience - can we ask the design team to commit to expanding the set of app guidelines that cover the topics outlines in this session?
[15:30] <michelR> An exemple of expected guideline : "how to handle 'settings' panel ?" (a) as a tab (--> non modal)  (b) as a special page (--> called from the toolbar, modal)
[15:30] <aquarius> Perhaps something that would be useful is the design team's interpretation of an app which is *not* a ritual app. At the moment all the visual design we've seen is for the ritual apps, so that's all that everyone has to copy.
[15:30] <jonobacon> aquarius: +1
[15:30]  * WebbyIT think that is the  most interesting session until now
[15:31] <jonobacon> much as it pains me to agree with you :-)
[15:31] <jonobacon> LOL
[15:31]  * aquarius grins
[15:31] <WebbyIT> ahahaha
[15:33] <aquarius> The design blog post about visual exploration is http://design.canonical.com/2013/07/shorts-visual-exploration/
[15:34] <justForQuestions> Question: are there any  icons / anything that you guys(designers) that is in QML ?  example using your examples as real world examples.  some developers have trouble cuttin up pictures ect.
[15:34] <GuidoPallemans> ohh that's a shame
[15:34] <justForQuestions> so like when designing a page keep icons and other things in there own file
[15:34] <justForQuestions> make a branch ect
[15:35] <GuidoPallemans> maybe there should be a weekly hangout where an app, where the design guys talk about an app, how it can be done better, and/or a developer can ask for advice and defend his design solutions etc.
[15:35] <jonobacon> mhall119: what is the hangout URL?
[15:35] <jonobacon> would like to join
[15:36] <GuidoPallemans> whoops brain fart
[15:36] <netcurli> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/a420dc3ec7461b0ef0d414fd55625834325d12ad?authuser=1&hl=en
[15:36] <aquarius> QUESTION: (also asked by kunal) will there be a standard set of icons for common toolbar actions -- refresh, about, restart, new game, that sort of thing, or should everyone be just choosing their own?
[15:38] <michelR> Any news on the "back" button ? days ago, Design Team said they were working on a new implementation requiring only one tap (instead of 2 now)
[15:38] <mhall119> justForQuestions: can you clarify your question about icons? I don't understand
[15:40] <justForQuestions> mhall119:  Like the examples that are on the design page and for core apps.  If the icons and what not where in seperate files then the developer's life becomes easier.  and also for developers to play with the design that canonical has worked so hard on.  Would help with training I think
[15:49] <GuidoPallemans> a weekly clinic where the design guidelines get applied to an app will be great, even greater would be if developers can show their own designs and ask questions around that
[15:53] <aquarius> ooh, cool, there's a toolbar action icon set? making those available would be excellent!
[15:54] <GuidoPallemans>  /usr/share/icons/ubuntu-mobile
[15:54] <GuidoPallemans> is that it?
[15:55] <swordfish> GuidoPallemans: I think it is... Or at least I hope, since it's what I'm using :D
[15:56] <GuidoPallemans> yeah me too
[15:56] <GuidoPallemans> also on desktop
[15:57] <GuidoPallemans> mhall119: katie I was referring to these: http://imgur.com/qGZlaeC
[15:58] <aquarius> thanks, katie et al.
[16:00] <aquarius> katie, one other question: you have a high-res image of a "generic" mobile phone, I think (the one used in all the pictures at http://design.canonical.com/2013/07/shorts-visual-exploration/). Is that asset available to everyone else so we can make nice looking mockups too? :-) /cc mhall119
[16:00] <mhall119> aquarius: I also asked victorp if he had any of the Edge
[16:00] <mhall119> no reply yet though
[16:01] <aquarius> mhall119, yeah -- having some would be nice for our mockup-y thing :)
[16:01] <mhall119> agreed
[16:04]  * popey waves to mhall119
[16:04] <mhall119> popey: getting it setup
[16:04] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/9fe4244b49578122ad1761a9b2734a41a3f03ea4?authuser=1&hl=en for anybody who wants to join the fishbowl
[16:08] <popey> hehe
[16:09] <mhall119> popey: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/731ba92244eff4fa4e63dea732e20d3b55ae333b?authuser=1&hl=en
[16:09] <timp> I just like to watch :) but I don't see the video yet
[16:09] <balloons> I'll be trying to listen to a couple sessions
[16:09] <mhall119> dpm: dude, you gotta tell me when you move sessions, I started the wrong one
[16:10] <timp> ok the video is starting
[16:10] <timp> ah no it says starting soon
[16:10]  * WebbyIT is interesting to listening
[16:10] <popey> http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-1308-appdev-1308-coreapps-review
[16:11] <dpm> mhall119, ah, sorry, I generally do, we had to change it so that popey could participate. Sorry Mike, I was doing too many things at the same time
[16:11] <mhall119> timp: should be live now
[16:11] <WebbyIT> yes, I can see you
[16:11] <timp> mhall119: now you're live
[16:11] <timp> mhall119: ahh, you're all alone? :(
[16:11] <timp> mhall119: oh you are not alone, but I don't see the thumbnails at the bottom
[16:12] <mhall119> yeah, the broadcast only shows one person at a time
[16:12] <timp> popey: way to go. You look like a shampoo commercial with the wind in your hair :)
[16:14] <timp> I don't see an etherpad in firefox
[16:15] <mhall119> timp: try opening http://pad.ubuntu.com in a separate tab and logging in, then go back to the summit page
[16:16] <timp> mhall119: that works. thanks.
[16:32] <mojo706> that weather app looks great
[16:32] <mhall119> mojo706: it really does, doesn't it?
[16:34] <mojo706> yes
[16:38] <GuidoPallemans> can you show that again? it wasnt on the big screen
[16:38] <mojo706> could you show that again
[16:38] <mojo706> yeah we couldn't see it properly
[16:39] <GuidoPallemans> it isnt on the big screen, you should say something
[16:39] <mojo706> very nice
[16:39] <GuidoPallemans> its ok
[16:40] <tosho> will be there any time soon Ubuntu Touch UI Kit for Gimp, Inkscape, Photoshop or Illustrator. and prototyping tool like  -http://jaunesarmiento.me/fries/
[16:40] <GuidoPallemans> michael do you have the source? can you demo it?
[16:41] <mhall119> GuidoPallemans: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-rssreader-app
[16:44] <mojo706> markdown for doc viewer? and zsh?
[16:45] <GuidoPallemans> that behaviour should be added to the keyboard
[16:46] <mhall119> GuidoPallemans: what behavior?
[16:46] <GuidoPallemans> the arrow behaviour in the console app
[16:53] <bzoltan> ping mhall119
[16:53] <mhall119> bzoltan: pong
[16:53] <bzoltan> mhall119:  what time the SDK porting session starts?
[16:54] <mhall119> bzoltan: later today, it was moved
[16:54] <bzoltan> mhall119: is this schedule up to date? http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1308/2013-08-28/display?
[16:55] <mhall119> bzoltan: should be, refresh to make sure you have the latest
[16:55] <bzoltan> mhall119:  OK, so it starts in an hour
[16:56] <timp> for some reason I thought it would start now
[16:56] <popey> nice one dpm mhall119
[16:56] <bzoltan> mhall119:  I try to make it, but 9pm here might be tricky :) I just put the kids to sleep
[16:56] <popey> Lunchtime!
[16:56] <popey> :D
[16:56] <bzoltan> popey:  LOL :) 8pm, late dinner time
[16:57] <dpm> thanks popey, mhall119
[16:57] <dpm> or early breakfast
[16:57] <timp> shouldn't every second vUDS be scheduled according to a European timezone? :)
[16:58] <dpm> timp, yeah, it kind of slipped off, but as someone living in Europe, I'll make sure to raise it next time we plan UDS :)
[17:04] <bzoltan> timp, dpm:  regardless how much I love my own TZ, I think it is the audience and target group what counts ... if the contributors are mostly in the US timezones then we should adopt to them.
[17:13] <testo> There is no calendar since Evolution is not installed
[17:21] <VJ> hi
[17:21] <VJ> hello
[17:21] <VJ> Mickael
[17:22] <VJ> Hello any 1 there ?
[17:23] <WebbyIT> hi VJ
[17:24] <VJ> Hey webbyIT , i am newbe in Linux world , really exited so can you like give me some advise for startups ?
[17:24] <WebbyIT> VJ, for support go to #ubuntu
[18:01] <zyga_> hi
[18:01] <mhall119> hello
[18:02] <ayr_ton> mhall119, o/
[18:05] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd996734764b0bc880a1eb44f2066f60ccb38848?authuser=1&hl=en please join the fishbowl if you're interested in this session
[18:06] <dobey> it's streaming
[18:06] <zyga> it's up
[18:06] <sethj> you're live
[18:07] <ayr_ton> ok
[18:11] <dobey> QUESTION: what about the APIs which will be on Ubuntu, such as online-accounts? would they be ported too?
[18:14] <LinkedLibMess> Depends if the libs are on machine or allowed on the machine (qt creator stuff)
[18:15] <LinkedLibMess> any linked lib that is not on machine is going to make qtcreator not running
[18:15] <dobey> it's not that simple
[18:16] <mmcc> Hi - I have USB bridging working OK (with a couple of minor convenience bugs) on OSX host with a virtualbox guest, and have been working on touch apps that way.
[18:16] <LinkedLibMess> should build one that uses installbuilder just like qt does and that could all be one with links and what not as long as they run on doz
[18:17] <LinkedLibMess> that is how sailfish does it also
[18:17] <mmcc> I just heard mhall ask if qtcreator and adb works over USB from a guest - this works OK for me from virtualbox
[18:17] <mhall119> thanks mmcc
[18:18] <mmcc> yes, flashing is a bit of a dance
[18:18] <LinkedLibMess> another thing is some of the scripts that are in the sdk are wrote in bash and not sure about windows and bash (have used in years )
[18:18] <LinkedLibMess> hove not *
[18:19] <dobey> i would stay away from xcode or visual studio
[18:19] <mmcc> avoid avoid xcode
[18:19] <dobey> you'd basically have to embed qtcreator itself, to be useful
[18:19] <mmcc> (this from a longtime xcode user)
[18:19] <dobey> otherwise you won't have any UI design tool really
[18:19] <mmcc> xcode would be very hostile to that kind of thing
[18:20] <dobey> at which point you might as well just use emacs or vim
[18:20] <LinkedLibMess> Things like anything like dbus and metadata stuff would also be hard to port
[18:21] <dobey>  dbus is ported. but making everything work right natively is hard
[18:22] <LinkedLibMess> what are the pro files for the qtcreator
[18:22] <LinkedLibMess> what is package called ?
[18:22] <dobey> mhall119: i'd just run everything in a vm
[18:22] <dobey> LinkedLibMess: the .pro files are qmake description files
[18:23] <mmcc> I agree, if you have to use a VM to run, might as well use it to develop, since this stuff is supposed to have a quick edit/run cycle
[18:23] <dobey> i would just qemu everything
[18:23] <dobey> a touch image with the sdk included.
[18:25] <mmcc> having a full desktop image to run the app is really helpful for debugging when you want to tail debug logs while you're testing
[18:25] <dobey> and it's probably eaiser to just install ubuntu in virtualbox or vmware and just develop on ubuntu in a vm
[18:26] <dobey> (like some developers i know do)I
[18:26] <mmcc> I do that. It works* now. (* except for some 3d accel issues when running QML)
[18:27] <dobey> i think they would be fine
[18:27] <dobey> you could, if you use vmware fusion or something
[18:28] <dobey> and cutting/pasting between vm and host is easy as well
[18:28] <mmcc> virtualbox has a rootless thing too
[18:28] <dobey> and host<->vm disk access is pretty easy
[18:28] <LinkedLibMess> But what about the plugins that Ubuntu is using one can launch a vm from qtcreator real easy but having the plugins and what not that are only used by qtcreator be crossplatform ie the linked libs
[18:28] <dobey> anyone writing android apps is already doing it all in a vm anyway ;)
[18:28] <mmcc> coding in qtcreator inside the VM and using a mac email client is not bad. I do that
[18:28] <LinkedLibMess> only for windows and mac ^^ tgat is with install builder
[18:29] <LinkedLibMess> coding on mac and using vm to test apps is the way to go
[18:30] <mmcc> premade VM images is most convenient
[18:30] <LinkedLibMess> correct but other company's do it so why not canonical ?
[18:30] <dobey> other companies do what?
[18:31] <LinkedLibMess> as long as the libs are on windows qtcreator should run
[18:31] <LinkedLibMess> dobey: qt is one themselfs
[18:32] <mhall119> LinkedLibMess: the question will be how much work it is to get all of the libs and eternal executables on windows and osx
[18:32] <LinkedLibMess> it all depends on what is used to make the qtcreator plugins for Ubuntu if them libs are there on doz or osx then it will work
[18:32] <LinkedLibMess> mhall119: none at all make installbuilder
[18:32] <mhall119> installbuilder?
[18:32] <dobey> the qml components are an issue as well as the "plug-ins" for qtcreator itself
[18:33] <LinkedLibMess> installbuilder packages for different platforms it is what sailfish and also qt themselfs
[18:33] <LinkedLibMess> mhall119: ^^
[18:33] <mhall119> LinkedLibMess: it's not jus packaging that's a concern
[18:33] <dpm> I was just saying, with VM's, we'd probably have to offer images for x86 and amd64 as well?
[18:33] <LinkedLibMess> but it would all be slow
[18:34] <LinkedLibMess> if everything is in a vm things will be slow
[18:34] <dobey> not if you have a core i7 3770
[18:34] <zyga> dpm: I think we can be okay with just x86
[18:34] <dobey> and 16GB RAM
[18:34] <mojo706> dobey, hehehe
[18:34] <dobey> all my VMs are fast :)
[18:34] <mmcc> even less beefy systems are OK as long as the 3d is working
[18:35] <LinkedLibMess> there is no reason why one can not use doz with qtcreator and then launch vm from qtcreator on the run button that pushs (app) to  vmmachine
[18:35] <LinkedLibMess> but it again is all about if the libs can be compiled on doz and osx
[18:35] <dobey> there are plenty of reasons you can't do that
[18:36] <mojo706> extending eclipse seems better
[18:36] <mmcc> doesn't qtcreator actually load QML components when in design mode? which means the components need to load their compiled plugins?
[18:36] <LinkedLibMess> dobey: like what ?
[18:36] <dobey> qtcreator needs the qml components to exist as well
[18:36] <dobey> mmcc: yes
[18:36] <LinkedLibMess> not if they are on the VM dobey
[18:36] <dobey> mmcc: also, when doing autocomplete
[18:36] <mojo706> and have an emulator
[18:36] <mmcc> dobey: autocomplete might be handled by that txt .qmltypes file
[18:37] <LinkedLibMess> though there would be some issues with highlighting and what not but not that bad
[18:37] <dobey> mmcc: it also does error checking, so that if it can't load it, then it complains about it
[18:37] <dobey> mmcc: which would be very annoying
[18:37] <mmcc> dobey: right
[18:37] <LinkedLibMess> someone give me windows licence and I will do it
[18:37] <LinkedLibMess> lol
[18:38] <mmcc> folks, I have to run early, but I will volunteer to test out VM images on OS X. I'm mike.mccracken@canonical.
[18:38] <dobey> i run qtcreator in a vm without video accel and it was fast
[18:38] <dobey> qmlscene runs slower natively on my laptop than it did in my vm without accel :(
[18:38] <LinkedLibMess> I have also run qtcreator for years I know for sure that it is slow with things like 3d and gl and stuff like that
[18:38] <mmcc> dobey: it's surely due to some combination of my hardware and vbox running on OS X host  :)
[18:39] <mmcc> ('it' being the problems I mentioned with 3d)
[18:39] <dobey> mmcc: your issues, yes :)
[18:39] <mojo706> also state the specs that need to run the vms
[18:40] <dobey> yeah, we ship python on win/mac
[18:40] <LinkedLibMess> If sailfish can do Ubuntu can do it
[18:40] <dobey> sailfish != ubuntu
[18:40] <dobey> apple != orange
[18:40] <LinkedLibMess> look for yourselfs they have linux mac and windows
[18:40] <LinkedLibMess> the point is it is crossplatform
[18:41] <dobey> yes, qt itself is cross platform
[18:41] <LinkedLibMess> yes it uses vm on all and uses installbuilder to build the sdk
[18:42] <LinkedLibMess> it is shipped with the sdk
[18:42] <LinkedLibMess> it is the same for windows and osx
[18:42] <LinkedLibMess> it can DL other images like armel7 and what not also
[18:43] <LinkedLibMess> via script
[18:43] <dobey> ugh. google really needs to run that gigabit fiber to their data centers, rather than kansas city
[18:43] <LinkedLibMess> install builder ..   http://installbuilder.bitrock.com/
[18:44] <dobey> packaging isn't an issue
[18:44] <dobey> that's to build the installer, not the sdk
[18:44] <LinkedLibMess> mhall119: they package the libs with it if needed
[18:44] <LinkedLibMess> for each one
[18:44] <dobey> we use that to build the installer for ubuntu one too
[18:46] <LinkedLibMess> dobey: it was nice chatting with you :)
[18:46] <LinkedLibMess> just wish I knew more about the linked libs that are linking making things that are not crossplatform
[18:46] <lool> I'm afraid I didn't follow this session
[18:47] <lool> SDK folks in the hangout?
[18:47] <LinkedLibMess> like LIBS+= -L /usr/lib/something -lsomething
[18:47] <dobey> lool: mhall119 and zyga and dpm are yes
[18:47] <dpm> we're lesser mortals
[18:47] <dpm> not part of the SDK team
[18:47] <zyga> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd996734764b0bc880a1eb44f2066f60ccb38848?authuser=1&hl=en
[18:47] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd996734764b0bc880a1eb44f2066f60ccb38848?authuser=1&hl=en
[18:49] <dobey> i can't join, because google+ seems to hate me today. i tried to join one earlier and got no video or audio once i joined :-/
[18:49] <dobey> it's ok. people have to run osx to develop on ios :)
[18:50] <LinkedLibMess> QUESTION: what is package name for the SDK not ubuntu-ui-toolkit but qtcreator build ?
[18:50] <mojo706> dobey, no its still wrong
[18:50] <dobey> LinkedLibMess: ubuntu-sdk
[18:50] <mhall119> LinkedLibMess: ubuntu-sdk is the metapackage
[18:50] <LinkedLibMess> that is package name for that metapackage ?
[18:51] <LinkedLibMess> thanks
[18:54] <LinkedLibMess> qtcreator-plugin-ubuntuu << that is what I am looking for that metapackage I guess :)
[18:55] <LinkedLibMess> or offline installer ....
[19:00] <dobey> the bot lies
[19:01] <mhall119> the bot is right, it's us that are late
[19:02] <zyga> thanks, interesting session!
[19:02] <mojo706> bye
[19:05] <lool> who is opening the next hangout?
[19:05] <cjwatson> mhall119 is the track lead, right?
[19:05] <mhall119> yes
[19:06] <mhall119> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en for joining the fish bowl, the more the merrier
[19:06] <lool> thanks!
[19:06] <dholbach> I'll just hang out here, my internet connection is not good enough today it seems :-(
[19:07] <dholbach> did the hangout start already?
[19:07] <doanac`> no
[19:07] <cjwatson> dholbach: it's running but not live yet
[19:08] <dholbach> go go go! :)
[19:08] <cjwatson> it's on air now
[19:08] <cjwatson> supposedly
[19:08] <rickspencer3> o/
[19:08] <lool> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409
[19:08]  * tedg got video
[19:09] <netcurli> i can see you
[19:09] <rickspencer3> you're broadcating
[19:09] <karni> You are broadcasting.
[19:09] <ogra_> you seem to do
[19:09] <rickspencer3> lool, can I join the hangout so I can ask my questions easier?
[19:09] <mhall119> rickspencer3: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en
[19:14] <dholbach> who's speaking second from the left? or can you turn on your lower third? :)
[19:15] <cjwatson> That was David Jordan, I believe
[19:15] <cjwatson> I don't mean to be dismissive about the complex-dependencies case, but it's not one we can handle yet and I think it's important to get the things we can currently handle working well
[19:16] <cjwatson> dmj_nova1: (you?)
[19:16] <dmj_nova1> yes
[19:16] <beuno> sergiusens, you look like you're in the witness protection programme
[19:16] <dmj_nova1> my G+ plugin died
[19:16] <sergiusens> beuno: lol
[19:16] <sergiusens> beuno: light?
[19:17] <dholbach> beuno, HAHA
[19:17] <gatox_> beuno: heheh
[19:17] <beuno> sergiusens, yes  :)
[19:18] <dmj_nova1> cjwatson: I'm fine with taking things one step at a time
[19:18] <lool> someone from SDK team joining?
[19:19] <lool> bzoltan: around?
[19:19]  * ogra_ was surprised he isnt
[19:19] <ogra_> since he owns the spec
[19:20] <cjwatson> dmj_nova1: the click spec does have a slot for supporting additional "frameworks" which is probably going to form part of a later solution to this
[19:20] <cjwatson> we deliberately excluded having complex dependencies though as then it's going to turn into .deb real quick
[19:20] <beuno> I can join
[19:20] <beuno> what's the link?
[19:20] <karni> beuno: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en
[19:20] <mhall119> beuno: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/775b5f9d919a2624105bafd80c1846c84238b409?authuser=1&hl=en
[19:20] <dmj_nova1> as a dev advocating for more complex apps (which will be necessary for having truly killer apps) and someone involved with a more complex application, it will be helpful to know where things are going, that it will be possible to extend the platform
[19:22] <cjwatson> if it's complexity contained within a single application then bundling is viable; it's only a difficulty if you want to do lots of library sharing
[19:22] <dmj_nova1> and bundling complex dependencies is certainly not ideal
[19:23] <dmj_nova1> for instance with dmedia, bundling might work if we knew the user would only ever use a single dmedia-based application, but 15 dmedia instances running on the same system would be a nightmare
[19:23] <cjwatson> we've also talked about having a way to share code among click packages from a single origin
[19:24] <cjwatson> which would require some extensions to apparmor profiles
[19:24] <cjwatson> I'm reasonably confident we can do it :)
[19:27] <ssweeny> i'm not sure if this is 100% on-topic for this discussion but if an app requires a new online-accounts plugin how would a developer install it? would it have to go into the Ubuntu image as a .deb or will there be a click mechanism for it?
[19:27] <mhall119> ssweeny: good question
[19:27] <dmj_nova1> cjwatson: We should definitely have a conversation about how to enable app ecosystems to extend the platform
[19:28] <cjwatson> Yep.  But after 13.10 :-)
[19:28]  * cjwatson <- a bit slammed
[19:29] <cjwatson> ssweeny: for 13.10, there are a couple of answers
[19:29] <tedg> It would be cool to have SSH on the phone :-)
[19:29] <cjwatson> ssweeny: if it's something you can bundle in your app, do so
[19:29] <mhall119> cjwatson: I'm not sure it is
[19:29] <cjwatson> one moment, typing :)
[19:29] <cjwatson> ssweeny: if it's an add-on to a system interface, and *if it can be apparmor-confined*, then you can have the system interface in question define a click hook that click packages can attach to
[19:30] <ogra_> rickspencer3, people wanting to really deeply hack into the system can use the flipped image... they are always there since they are an interim product we need for system images
[19:30] <mhall119> cjwatson: ssweeny: that's probably something we should have a separate discussion about
[19:30] <ssweeny> cjwatson, right now those plugins are implemented as xml files dropped into a specific location on the filesystem
[19:30] <lool> mhall119: (sorry I have a hard time breaking the notes into questions/ideas/concerns)
[19:30] <rickspencer3> ogra_, or just go enter Read/Write mode, right?
[19:31] <mhall119> lool: no worries, I can clean it up later
[19:31] <ogra_> rickspencer3, thats still fairly restricted
[19:31] <cjwatson> ssweeny: if it can't be apparmor-confined, then you can't do it for 13.10
[19:31] <rickspencer3> ok
[19:31] <rickspencer3> thanks ogra_
[19:31] <ssweeny> cjwatson, ok
[19:31] <cjwatson> ssweeny: if they can't execute arbitrary code (pure data), then you don't need confinement, just a click hook
[19:32] <ssweeny> cjwatson, all they do is fill in values that online-accounts uses (API endpoints, keys, etc)
[19:32] <cjwatson> ssweeny: OK, then that can be done with a click hook.  Contact me out of band if doc/hooks.rst in the click source package isn't sufficient
[19:32] <ssweeny> cjwatson, ok, will do. thanks!
[19:32] <rickspencer3> what happened when we are supposed to talk about technical details at UDS? ;)
[19:32] <lool> :-)
[19:32] <cjwatson> (I'm assuming you're a developer of the online-accounts package that would define this hook)
[19:33] <dmj_nova1> cjwatson: The pure containment is a good thing for reducing the amount of verification time (which is the reason for this stuff I believe), but there definitely should be a mechanism for distributing apps outside basic scope
[19:34] <cjwatson> dmj_nova1: we do have some slots in the code to build out this kind of thing in future
[19:34] <tedg> Do we need a setting in system settings to enable this stuff?
[19:35] <sergiusens> tedg: I would only say to enable ssh
[19:35] <cjwatson> I think what we reached was a setting to enable ssh until the next reboot
[19:35] <sergiusens> tedg: but not the _system developer mode_
[19:35] <cjwatson> (backend: "service ssh start")
[19:35] <tedg> To enable adb as well, no?
[19:35] <tedg> Or whatever
[19:35] <tedg> Ah, okay.  yes
[19:36] <dmj_nova1> also, do you believe that end users will be able to access this read-write mode/switch from image-based updates on their purchased devices from an OEM/carrier?
[19:37] <cjwatson> rickspencer3: ^- is that something you can speak to?
[19:38] <rickspencer3> cjwatson, yeah, but in another discussion right now
[19:41] <tedg> Won't it be the same as a PIN if you set it?
[19:41] <tedg> If it's swipe, it should be null....
[19:41] <tedg> If you set a PIN, it's the PIN.
[19:41] <dmj_nova1> novacut has some useful peer techniques
[19:42] <tedg> Perhaps only enable SSH if you have a PIN set?
[19:42] <ogra_> tedg, with swipe you indeed type in "swipe"
[19:42] <tedg> ogra_, Hah, and then I get a phone from a German OEM and I won't be able to log in without the character map ;-)
[19:43] <ogra_> :D
[19:44] <cjwatson> tedg: If you have an open SSH server then you can brute-force the entire PIN space probably without the user noticing
[19:44] <cjwatson> So I cannot recommend using the PIN
[19:45] <tedg> cjwatson, Hmm, but I'd imagine that'll be the user account's password, no?
[19:45] <cjwatson> I like this QR code idea
[19:45] <cjwatson> tedg: The SSH server doesn't necessarily have to have passwords enabled, especially not if we use this clever QR code idea suggested on the hangout
[19:45] <ogra_> cjwatson, ++
[19:45] <tedg> Sorry, just got the QR code thing :-)
[19:45] <beuno> that's probably the first time I've heard someone smart say something good about QR codes
[19:45] <tedg> Okay, so disable passwords, then scan.
[19:46] <cjwatson> :-)
[19:46] <dmj_nova1> www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awz_sGj0Zhw
[19:47] <tedg> lool, I think "no password" isn't good
[19:47] <tedg> I think if you're using a PIN to login, it should be the PIN.
[19:47] <ogra_> tedg, "locked password"
[19:47] <ogra_> not "no password"
[19:47] <lool> tedg: disabled password
[19:47] <lool> "!" as password
[19:47] <cjwatson> A PIN should be a different PAM authentication mechanism
[19:48] <cjwatson> It should not be hooked up such that things that do remote auth might accidentally use it
[19:48] <tedg> Why wouldn't you use the PIN with PAM?
[19:48] <cjwatson> But only for auth when logging in on screen
[19:48] <dmj_nova1> btw, the pin in the video is a one-time pin, just to get the key across securely
[19:48] <cjwatson> tedg: You would, just not via PAM password auth
[19:48] <cjwatson> Keep it separate because it's not the same thing :)
[19:49] <tedg> I guess I kinda do see it as the same thing... "this is how I login to my device"  -- PIN, password or swipe.
[19:49] <tedg> If I plug in my phone and I'm using it as a desktop... how do I get through the greeter?
[19:49] <cjwatson> It should be kept separate at the PAM layer so that different session-creating services can use different policies
[19:49] <cjwatson> That's all I'm saying
[19:50] <cjwatson> A PIN does not make sense to expose for network login methods where you can attack the entire PIN space at your leisure
[19:50] <cjwatson> But it's fine for local login
[19:50] <cjwatson> Or, to put it another way, why conflate PINs with passwords when we don't have to, given that they're conceptually different
[19:51] <cjwatson> And I've just exhibited a case where distinguishing them is useful :)
[19:51] <tedg> cjwatson, I see what you're saying, but I guess I worry that we're separating things that users don't see as different.
[19:51] <dmj_nova1> yeah, let's not mix unlock pin with complete device access
[19:51] <rickspencer3> lool, do you want me to join the hangout to try to answer dmj_nova1's question?
[19:51] <cjwatson> tedg: This wouldn't generally need to be exposed to users, so I don't see that as a concern, really
[19:52] <lool> rickspencer3: if you like, we kind of switched topic I'm afraid
[19:52] <cjwatson> Not many users will need remote access to their phone, but let's not open security holes for those who do :)
[19:52] <lool> dmj_nova1: including link to your peering setup in pad, thanks
[19:52] <tedg> cjwatson, I'm just guessing that those who do probably aren't happy with a PIN anywhere ;-)
[19:52] <dmj_nova1> lool: feel free to ask me or jderose about how it works
[19:53] <lool> thanks
[19:53] <dmj_nova1> or look at the peering code in dmedia
[19:53] <cjwatson> tedg: Some won't be, but I think some will be fine - attacking an entire PIN space on a phone screen is maybe possible but would take a long time
[19:53] <cjwatson> And be kind of obvious
[19:53] <dmj_nova1> lool: you can find us in #novacut
[19:53] <tedg> cjwatson, Don't we delay on failed attempts with network services?
[19:53] <rickspencer3> lool, I don't much care to join the hangout, I can just answer here
[19:53] <rickspencer3> dmj_nova1, did you get an answer to your question?
[19:54] <cjwatson> tedg: Yeah, but if you leave your phone connected overnight (etc.) that's still plenty of time
[19:54] <cjwatson> tedg: Somebody actually getting hold of your phone is quite a different matter and a lot more obvious ...
[19:55] <tedg> Interesting.  Perhaps we need the delay to increase exponentially ;-)  Anyway, topic for beer.
[19:56] <karni> .wc
[19:56] <karni> sorry, that was window close in irssi ;d
[19:56] <tedg> mhall119, Assign mpt to update the design first
[19:56] <mhall119> tedg: design of what?
[19:56] <tedg> mhall119, System settings
[19:57] <mhall119> tedg: done
[19:59] <dholbach> thanks a bunch!
[19:59] <netcurli> thanks


[00:25] <Random101> I've used ubuntu before and nothing has ever happened (bad), but now it won't start. The screen flashes EXTREMELY quick and says "Missing 'loadfront'" and "missing something.exe" (can't read it quick enough), and it says "No webildur" (or whatever that is) Any help will be appreciated.
[00:30] <Random101> Anyone :(?
[00:32] <Guest28722> i didn't see the question
[00:34] <seidos> Random101: i dunno, haven't seen this problem before.  .exe?  that's strange
[00:34] <seidos> you could try reinstalling from a live cd, without repartitioning
[00:34] <Random101> Well, as I said, it was EXTREMELY fast, so I don't know if it was .exe
[00:34] <Random101> I use/d wubi
[00:35] <seidos> hmmm, i don't have experience with wubi
[00:37] <xAndromeda> heys! so i fixed my wifi but i need to run rfkill unblock all
[00:37] <xAndromeda> every time i want to run it
[00:37]  * Random101 sighs
[00:37] <xAndromeda> lol
[00:37] <xAndromeda> how do i add it to the boot up script
[00:38] <xAndromeda> i remember doing it like a month ago
[00:38] <yofel> xAndromeda: are you sure it's not disabled in the bios somewhere by mistake?
[00:38] <yofel> xAndromeda: you can add it to /etc/rc.local
[00:38] <xAndromeda> yes
[00:38] <xAndromeda> i cant remember
[00:38] <xAndromeda> what to type lol
[00:38] <yofel> you're using gnome right?
[00:38] <xAndromeda> yes
[00:39] <yofel> try alt+f2: gksu gedit /etc/rc.local
[00:39] <yofel> add it before the 'exit 0'
[00:39] <xAndromeda> k
[00:40] <xAndromeda> just the command?
[00:40] <yofel> I'm not sure when that file gets executed, but it should be enough for your case I think
[00:40] <yofel> yes
[00:40] <yofel> there's probably a different solution too, but that's the easiest one I can think of right now
[00:40] <xAndromeda> k brb testing
[00:48] <xAndromeda> it works!
[00:48] <xAndromeda> thxx :D
[01:30] <Thedemon007>
[01:30] <Thedemon007> I have problems I can not use any flash drive three I have everyone says error: Error mounting: mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad
[01:31] <seiuno> i think that happened to me once
[01:31] <seiuno> do they show up in /dev/sdc* ?
[01:31] <seiuno> or /dev/sdb* ?
[01:31] <Thedemon007> /dev/sdd
[01:32] <Thedemon007> http://pastebin.com/bYgfw7nF
[01:33] <seiuno> it's been awhile, but i think i was able to mount them manually
[01:34] <seiuno> using the mount command
[01:40] <seiuno> i didn't save the code, however
[01:40] <Thedemon007> mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sdd,
[01:40] <Thedemon007>        missing codepage or helper program, or other error
[01:40] <Thedemon007> mount -t vfat /dev/sdd /mnt
[01:40] <seiuno> you have to specify vfat as the fs type *i believe*
[01:40] <seiuno> but let me try it here on mine
[01:42] <Thedemon007> i compiled my kernel
[01:42] <seiuno> this worked for me:  sudo mount -t vfat /dev/sdb1 ~/media
[01:42] <Thedemon007> http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-814657.html
[01:42] <seiuno> perhaps you should check with your ubuntu user group
[01:42] <seiuno> sdd i think may be wrong
[01:43] <Thedemon007> sdd is a pendrive
[01:43] <Thedemon007> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/581876/
[01:44] <seiuno> i have sdb and sdb1
[01:44] <seiuno> is there sdd1?
[01:44] <Thedemon007> no there sd1
[01:46] <seiuno> that doesn't make sense
[01:49] <seiuno> yeah, sdb doesn't work for me.  i have to mount sdb1
[06:14] <kaushal> hi
[06:15] <kaushal> Any good apps for task/event available in Ubuntu ?
[06:15] <kaushal> I mean task reminder
[06:25] <ikt> kaushal, like tomboy notes?
[06:27] <kaushal> ikt: i dont get popups
[06:27] <kaushal> ikt: it does not highlight
[06:28] <ikt> are you able to use the calendar in evolution?
[06:28] <kaushal> ikt: i dont use evolution
[06:29] <ikt> I think in 11.04 they have a calendar utility built in
[06:29] <kaushal> ok
[06:29] <kaushal> Any task reminder or event reminder apps on Desktop
[06:35] <ikt> besides evolution, maybe google calendar
[06:36] <kaushal> ikt: does it have desktop apps ?
[06:41] <ikt> checking it out now
[06:47] <ikt> yeah it does, but you have to be running google calendar the whole time
[06:47] <ikt> it's not very integrated :/
[06:54] <duanedesign> evolution is nice because you get reminders even when evolution is not running
[06:55] <bioterror> it is running then, as a daemon ;)
[06:55] <bioterror> I cant use evolution becouse it sucks with rules
[06:58] <duanedesign> bioterror: i think it is through the date/time in the panel
[07:54] <kosaidpo|> hello guys
[07:55] <kosaidpo|> each time i change my resolv it goes back to its config when i upnpug plug my modem
[07:55] <kosaidpo|> can anyone help
[10:41] <s-fox> =)
[16:40] <[cenobyte]> am i wasting my time trying to get evolution to work with OWA, or am i just doing something wrong?
[19:39] <kristian-aalborg> hi all
[19:39] <kristian-aalborg> I have a console-only installation... what'd be the smart way of backing it up?
[19:40] <holstein> kristian-aalborg: in what way?
[19:40] <kristian-aalborg> I'm thinking of only copying /home/ and getting a list of installed packages
[19:40] <kristian-aalborg> hi holstein
[19:40] <holstein> kristian-aalborg: o/
[19:40] <kristian-aalborg> I'm probably going to do it to usb
[19:40] <holstein> id probably just run ssh on it
[19:40] <holstein> and mount it over the network on whatever box
[19:40] <holstein> grab /home and whatever else
[19:41] <holstein> *its not easy to get to my server box
[19:41] <holstein> to plug a drive in
[19:41] <kristian-aalborg> holstein: gotcha, time to get ssh working as well :)
[19:41] <yofel> if you want a list of packages that you installed after installation this should do it (it's the aptitude way though)
[19:41] <yofel> aptitude  --display-format '%p' search '?installed!?automatic'
[19:42] <kristian-aalborg> nah, ssh it is - that's more pro
[20:36]  * kristian-aalborg copies everything... it's free
[20:54] <kristian-aalborg> holstein: would you know how to exclude kcore?
[21:19] <holstein> kristian-aalborg: i dont think so
[21:19] <holstein> i mean, i dont know*
[21:21] <kristian-aalborg> it seem I have to add rsync to the mix as kcore is a neverending file
[21:21] <holstein> kristian-aalborg: rsync is one of those things i really havent explored much
[21:22] <holstein> not enough to really know much about its use
[21:22] <holstein> ive been meaning to use grsync for something
[21:22] <holstein> to help learn about it
[21:34]  * kristian-aalborg kicks himself for not doing a dry-run before deleting those important things on the backup hdd :(
[21:34] <kristian-aalborg> holstein: in my view, it's actually easier to use an hour or to with rsync and get the basics right instead of fumbling around with grsync
[21:35] <kristian-aalborg> also, grsync has failed med
[21:35] <kristian-aalborg> me
[21:37] <kristian-aalborg> not that I have much expertise with rsync as evident by my recent blunder
[21:40] <meditatingfrog> i tried rsync awhile back, but now i just use scp
[21:43] <kristian-aalborg> meditatingfrog: I started scp but it wanted to include kcore, which is some kind of eerie metafile that keeps getting bigger
[21:45] <meditatingfrog> rsync doesn't appear to have a progress indicator
[21:45] <meditatingfrog> scp does
[21:58] <kristian-aalborg> meditatingfrog: I went to rsync because of the kcore thing
[21:58] <meditatingfrog> mmmm so i shouldn't use it?
[22:02] <holstein> kristian-aalborg: OH
[22:02] <holstein> thanks for the heads up on grsync
[22:02] <holstein> maybe i'll just skip that then :)
[22:02] <holstein> laterx...
[22:03] <meditatingfrog> i may have borked the syntax, i just did what i would do with scp
[22:03] <meditatingfrog> it appears to be working
[22:04] <kristian-aalborg> meditatingfrog: I'm copying everything, thinking of trying to move my install to a CF-thingy
[22:06] <meditatingfrog> kristian-aalborg: copying *everything*?  you mean all of ~/ ?
[22:09] <kristian-aalborg> meditatingfrog: yes
[22:09] <kristian-aalborg> actually, all of / :)
[22:11] <meditatingfrog> kristian-aalborg: weird
[22:19] <kristian-aalborg> meditatingfrog: what is?
[22:19] <meditatingfrog> kristian-aalborg: that you are saving /  i never save /
[22:19] <meditatingfrog> well, i have a liveusb, why would i need / ?
[22:19] <kristian-aalborg> is adds up to 800 megs, no problem
[22:23] <meditatingfrog> oh, i guess you have a lot of software installed that you want saved?
[22:23] <meditatingfrog> don't want to reinstall from the repositories?


[12:10] <Jp_> Can Maas install firmware updates ? Can it be remotely accessed ?
[13:31] <pmatulis> Jp...
[13:31] <cnf> he left, i think :P
[13:50] <roaksoax> j/win 4
[14:56] <sarah__> hello, Why can't I login into the maas nodes ? I always get this error "Permission denied (publickey).
[15:00] <Derpmeister> Did you add your SSH key to the MAAS nodes?
[15:00] <sarah__> how do I add them to the nodes ?
[15:02] <Derpmeister> I'm not sure, I'm still setting my MAAS instance up. Having trouble with that at the moment.
[15:02] <Derpmeister> >_>
[15:02] <Derpmeister> But in that screen there should be a section where you can pick what SSH keys to assign to the nodes assuming you've put in your SSH keys for your personal account when you initially set it up.
[15:03] <sarah__> are you following a tutorial or the maas docs ?
[15:03] <Derpmeister> MAAS docs.
[15:04] <Derpmeister> When I initially set up my account on MAAS there was a section where MAAS asked me if I had SSH keys to add.
[15:04] <Derpmeister> This is where you add them and then MAAS will make use of that when you set up your nodes.
[15:05] <sarah__> Oh that section, yes I do have an ssh key and there's no reason for it not to work
[15:08] <Derpmeister> Ok, so how were you SSHing to the node? You know the nodes have an ubuntu account you use to ssh into the nodes, right?
[15:08] <Derpmeister> https://docs.ubuntu.com/maas/2.1/en/installconfig-checklist#ssh-to-the-node if not, here's the docs.
[15:11] <sarah__> yeah that's how I tried ssh
[15:11] <sarah__> like ssh ubuntu@ip_address
[15:12] <Derpmeister> Hmm. Odd, then you should be SSH'd in fine.
[15:12] <Derpmeister> You might want to try readding the SSH keys to the nodes then, in the node ui
[15:16] <sarah__> the only way to access the node is through ssh


[08:41] <mdke> morning all
[16:00] <jbicha> there are 2 separate wikis right? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ is the first not used as much these days?
[16:02] <starcraft-ntbk> other way jbicha, community is the main documatation storage with wiki.ubuntu being a dumping ground.
[16:03] <starcraft-ntbk> jbicha: new and looking to get into docs?
[16:03] <jbicha> I think that's confusing
[16:03] <jbicha> because a lot of the good stuff is in the wiki.ubuntu.com one
[16:04] <starcraft-ntbk> jbicha: somewhat. It's the system we have though.
[16:04] <jbicha> I'm wanting to help edubuntu
[16:05] <starcraft-ntbk> hmmm. dunno much about edubuntu, I guess they fall under doc team as well
[16:05] <jbicha> for instance, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam is the official wiki page for you guys, right?
[16:05] <starcraft-ntbk> yup, that's our page. Wiki.ubuntu serves as a team organization place as one of its roles.
[16:07] <jbicha> I'm so used to mediawiki, moinmoin or whatever is a bit confusing for me, is there a good page I can learn what's going on
[16:08] <jbicha> is there a way I can view all edits by one person?
[16:09] <starcraft-ntbk> uh, moment, i'll get the guide
[16:09] <starcraft-ntbk> jbicha: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
[16:09] <starcraft-ntbk> most information there, formatting and conventions
[16:11] <starcraft-ntbk> jbicha: not familiar enough with edubuntu wiki to give ya specific advice on that, mostly just an ubuntu worker
[16:13] <stlsaint> lo starcraft-ntbk
[16:14] <starcraft-ntbk> hi stlsaint
[16:55] <stlsaint> lo all
[18:19] <jbicha> wiki.ubuntu.com is down for me
[18:23] <jbicha> and it's back
[18:23] <starcraft-ntbk> lo again jbicha
[18:24] <starcraft-ntbk> droppy wireless.
[21:53] <LaserJock> do the Category pages on wiki.ubuntu.com show the full contents of the categories?
[21:53] <LaserJock> it seems like I'm not getting all the pages


[03:56] <ben44b> H
[12:50] <bazhang> Escsun, ping
[12:50] <A4Tech> bazhang hello
[12:50] <bazhang> A4Tech, hi
[12:50] <A4Tech> bazhang pm please
[12:50] <bazhang> k
[13:03] <Nafallo> jpds: what happened to !info in -se ?
[13:35] <jpds> Nafallo: Looking into it now.
[13:38] <Nafallo> jpds: ta
[13:44] <jpds> +info ubuntu-desktop
[13:44] <jpds> ubot2: info ubuntu-desktop
[13:44] <ubot2> jpds: ubuntu-desktop (source: ubuntu-meta): The Ubuntu desktop system. In component main, is optional. Version 1.124 (intrepid), package size 26 kB, installed size 52 kB
[13:44] <jpds> Nafallo: Appears to be back again.
[13:45] <Nafallo> jpds: what am I doing wrong then?
[13:47] <jpds> Nafallo: That package is arch all, not i386. I'll try and fix it.
[13:47] <Nafallo> jpds: AHA. was just about to ask why it hates freedom :-)
[13:48] <jpds> (Debug is: http://paste.ubuntu.com/115174/ if wondering).
[13:49] <Nafallo> kewl :-)
[13:55] <jpds> Hmm.
[13:55]  * jpds wonders how to kill the en_GB downloads: http://paste.ubuntu.com/115186/
[14:01] <jpds> ubot2: info grokking-the-gimp
[14:01] <ubot2> jpds: grokking-the-gimp (source: grokking-the-gimp): GIMP tutorial book by Carey Bunks (HTML). In component multiverse, is optional. Version 1.0-2 (intrepid), package size 21335 kB, installed size 24284 kB
[14:01] <jpds> Nafallo: Woo.
[14:03] <Nafallo> yaya!


[16:58] -queuebot:#lubuntu-devel- Builds: Lubuntu Desktop amd64 [Focal 20.04.1] (20200723) has been added
[22:02] -queuebot:#lubuntu-devel- Builds: Lubuntu Desktop amd64 [Focal 20.04.1] has been updated (20200723.1)
 (sigh) already...
 im not really ready to build everything again
 Cool story bro
 heh
 *breaks everything just to give Simon more work*
 @teward001 [*breaks everything just to give Simon more work*], *reads the line in Thomas' agreed-upon services and pawns it back off to him*
 oh i didn't say it's the infra that's gonna break xD
 *points at pending syncs that affect pretty much every package*
 @teward001 [*points at pending migrations upstream from Ubuntu that affect pretty much every …], *makes teward the maintainer for every package in Debian slowly and painfully*
 lol
 @teward001 you have a mild interest in GRUB right?
 BAM, new maintainer
 oh, same with the entire Linux kernel
 and all of its modules
 While we're at it, let's include GNU Hurd
 are you looking for me to find your IRL location and hunt you down just to smack you from here to Hell, Michigan, and back?
 :P
 Michigan is about an hour and a half drive from here, just sayin
 And hell? Well, I already live there
 At least the last month I have
 *sends you to actual heck*
 anyways
 yeah so there's this Lubuntu thing
 we're sort of in the devel channel for it
 is it called 20.04.1 image testing :P
 'cause i'm kinda waiting for the point release 😔
 DID YOU KNOW
 that if you actually help test the images
 They might actually get released?
 are the images ready for testing though was the question
 if not then i can't test em
 but i AM going to test the 20.04.1 images :P
 http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/414/builds/217727/testcases
 *zsyncs the ISO at 10MBps*


[00:49] <micahg> fta: that's fine, I'd prefer to keep changes like that only to major version bumps
[00:49] <fta> micahg, it's the idea, it will be 10->11
[00:50] <fta> unless there's another 10 in between with security fixes
[00:51] <micahg> fta: right, well, last bump was only about 3 weeks ago, so I figure at least one more 10.x
[01:31] <micahg> fta: there's a new ioquake which might solve your issue, can I push to a test PPA for you or would you rather I push packages up to my p.u.c page?
[04:46] <[reed]> jcastro: well, I wore a Mozilla t-shirt today
[04:46] <[reed]> that's about it
[04:47] <[reed]> I had actual work to do :0
[05:03] <kbrosnan> [reed]: aww in sv?
[05:04] <[reed]> by "sv", do you mean "silicon valley" or "sunnyvale"... note that my current employer is in palo alto :)
[05:05] <[reed]> kbrosnan: ^
[05:05] <kbrosnan> the former
[05:06] <kbrosnan> in MV
[05:06] <[reed]> ?
[05:07] <kbrosnan> i'm in mv.
[05:08] <[reed]> ah, cool
[05:08] <[reed]> for how long?
[05:08] <kbrosnan> till August
[05:08] <[reed]> ah, awesome
[05:08] <kbrosnan> working with aakash and tony
[05:08] <kbrosnan> on mobile firefox
[05:08] <[reed]> I may come over Thursday for lunch
[05:09] <[reed]> I need to meet with some people
[05:09] <kbrosnan> i'm at @ 3rd floor near warp core most of the time
[05:11] <[reed]> you're more than welcome to come check out my work and eat lunch/dinner
[05:11] <[reed]> or come visit me in the city :)
[06:29] <linuxtech> Can we install firefox4 from the ppa and keep the old firefox with our profiles for 3.6.15 separate?
[06:48] <Dimmuxx> micahg: ah I didn't know that, thanks!
[07:11] <chrisccoulson> linuxtech, no, you can't do that
[11:15] <BUGabundo> o/
[11:53] <bdrung> chrisccoulson: porting eclipse to use webkit would be cool
[11:53] <chrisccoulson> bdrung, the latest version can already use webkit
[11:53] <chrisccoulson> i was questioning the dependency on swt though, as i thought that eclipse had its own copy
[11:55] <fta> micahg, jdstrand_: fyi, security update of ch10 planed for tomorrow
[11:56] <fta> planed? planned?
[11:56] <fta> well, expected tomorrow
[12:02] <BUGabundo> hahahhhahahhahahhaahahahahahahah
[12:27] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: are language packs available for FF4 in the PPA?
[12:28] <chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, they're not unfortunately. it's pretty difficult for me to do that because the 3.6 translations are bundled with our language packs
[12:28] <chrisccoulson> i'm not sure how else to support that
[12:28] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: oh, hrm
[12:28] <chrisccoulson> ideas welcome ;)
[12:28] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: are there plans to update to 4.0 in maverick?
[12:28] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: yes, split them all out again :)
[12:29] <chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, yeah, i want to split them, so i can support translated builds in PPAs ;)
[12:29] <chrisccoulson> maverick probably won't get 4.0, but will get another version
[12:29] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: cool, thanks
[12:34] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: another version? seriously? I though we were doing rolling releases now?
[12:34] <chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, maverick will likely get 5.0 ;)
[12:36] <mdeslaur> oh, so they will still do some security fixes for 3.6?
[12:42] <chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, yeah, not sure for how long though
[12:43] <mdeslaur> I see
[13:32] <micahg> fta: ACK
[13:49] <gnomefreak> i guess we skipped tb32. do we have a build for enigmail for tb33?
[14:00] <micahg> gnomefreak: upstream skipped 3.2
[14:05] <BUGabundo> http://slides.html5rocks.com/#speech-input nie
[14:05] <BUGabundo> *nice
[14:07] <gnomefreak> micahg: thanks
[14:09] <gnomefreak> this is odd. using minefield i get the following message "Your browser either doesn't support or you have disabled JavaScript."
[14:12] <gnomefreak> i have IcedTea-Web Plugin (using IcedTea-Web 1.1pre (1.1~20110320-0ubuntu1))
[14:14] <gnomefreak> supporting LiveConnect/JavaScript.
[14:14] <gnomefreak> so either minefield or icedtea is screwed up
[14:14] <gnomefreak> or incompatible
[14:17] <gnomefreak> it is the same for official ff package in repos 4.0rc2
[14:18] <gnomefreak> and chrome :(
[14:21] <fta> micahg, ch is now complaining our system flash is out dated :(
[14:23] <micahg> mdeslaur: ^^
[14:23] <mdeslaur> fta: I'm currently working on flashplugin-nonfree updates...they should come out either this afternoon or tomorrow
[14:24] <mdeslaur> fta: our adobe-flashplugin packages are already released
[14:24] <fta> mdeslaur, what's the difference between those two?
[14:25] <mdeslaur> fta: adobe-flashplugin is in the partner repo...flashplugin-nonfree is in multiverse
[14:25] <fta> why maintain two?
[14:25] <mdeslaur> fta: adobe-flashplugin don't install on amd64, flashplugin-nonfree integrated with nspluginwrapper on amd64
[14:25] <fta> oh
[14:25] <mdeslaur> fta: adobe won't let us ship the official packages (adobe-flashplugin) on amd64
[14:26] <mdeslaur> AFAIK
[14:26] <gnomefreak> can someone please test this link. let me know if it says you have javascript disabled or not installed enigmail.mozdev.org/download/download-static.php.html
[14:27] <gnomefreak> wait adobe wont let us package and distribute falsh for 64bit?
[14:27] <gnomefreak> flash even
[14:28] <mdeslaur> gnomefreak: I don't know the details...all I know is the "adobe-flashplugin" package in the partner repo doesn't install on amd64
[14:28] <mdeslaur> gnomefreak: I _assume_ they prefer it not be used on amd64 with the nspluginwrapper hack
[14:29] <mdeslaur> gnomefreak: I don't actually know anything about that, so don't take anything I say seriously on that subject :)
[14:29] <gnomefreak> wait are you trying to use the 64bit package or the 32bit+nsplugin...
[14:29] <gnomefreak> iirc they still havent finished 64bit but they atleast have one
[14:30] <mdeslaur> gnomefreak: thay have a preview version of the 64 bit one that doesn't get updated for security issues. We don't ship that.
[14:31] <gnomefreak> i didnt relize it was a prefiew i thought it was normal package. alot of people want the 64bit package included but i guess that is a bad idea atm
[14:32] <mdeslaur> gnomefreak: yes
[14:32] <mdeslaur> gnomefreak: it's available in my PPA is anybody wants to install it at their risk
[14:33] <chrisccoulson> i wish they'd just release that, so we can bury nspluginwrapper in a very deep grave
[15:29] <BUGabundo>  youtube html5 WIN! inf FF4 any video > right click "save as" > rick roll!
[20:24] <fta> doh! nice changelogs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-2d/+bug/724717/comments/11
[20:24] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 724717 in unity-2d "Indicators fail to load" [Critical,Fix released]
[20:55] <LLStarks> chrisccoulson, are you annoyed as i am with all of the ubuntuzilla, ppa, tarball madness. the entire ubuntu userbase comes down with a collective case of the derpes whenever a new fx comes out.
[20:55] <chrisccoulson> what do you mean?
[20:58] <LLStarks> it's not readily apparent to people that the stable ppa is the best solution
[20:58] <LLStarks> they dload the tarball: "wah, my fonts are ****ed"
[20:58] <LLStarks> they use ubuntuzilla: "what the hell is the /opt folder? where's the binary?"
[20:59] <chrisccoulson> well, ubuntuzilla is dead anyway
[21:00] <chrisccoulson> so that's 1 less option
[21:00] <chrisccoulson> and nothing annoys me (well, not much anyway) ;)
[21:00] <LLStarks> linux needs an instant-gratification way to install firefox with proper folder structure and linking
[21:00] <LLStarks> packagekit underdelivers
[21:01] <chrisccoulson> well, that's what PPA's and deb packages provide, no?
[21:01] <LLStarks> well, i don't see mozilla doing a deb/rpm repo
[21:01] <LLStarks> and the sru  process for firefox takes too long
[21:02] <chrisccoulson> well, we don't follow the sru process for firefox
[21:03] <LLStarks> is there a fancy name or initialism i can use?
[21:03] <chrisccoulson> and we release security updates within a day of mozilla normally (hardly, "long")
[21:03] <chrisccoulson> and in future, we'll be pushing major updates out to all releases at the same time too
[21:04] <LLStarks> nice.
[21:04] <LLStarks> who is getting 4.0 btw? karmic, lucid, maverick, hardy?
[21:04] <chrisccoulson> karmic and lucid definitely aren't
[21:04] <chrisccoulson> oops
[21:04] <chrisccoulson> i meant karmic ;)
[21:04] <chrisccoulson> lucid and maverick most likely won't, but they will most likely get 5
[21:05] <LLStarks> really?
[21:05] <chrisccoulson> but i have absolutely no idea of what mozilla's plans are for supporting 3.6, so i'm basing my prediction on the results of my crystal ball right now
[21:05] <LLStarks> isn't that a bit risky? i don't trust the new mozilla roadmap.
[21:06] <chrisccoulson> anything i tell you now is just a complete guess tbh
[21:06] <chrisccoulson> i don't know if 3.6 will be supported for 1 week, 1 month, 2 months, 6 months, 1 year, 10 years
[21:08] <LLStarks> would it be possible to issue a security update for all supported releases that changes the greyed out 'upgrade firefox' menu item into an add-apt-repository command that adds the stable ppa?
[21:09] <LLStarks> you'd avoid the issue of directly packaging for a release with the main archive
[21:10] <chrisccoulson> absolutely not. that wouldn't be a security update for a start
[21:10] <chrisccoulson> and where is that string visible?
[21:10] <chrisccoulson> we disable the updater, so there should be no menu item at all
[21:10] <chrisccoulson> (there isn't one here)
[21:11] <LLStarks> ah, it's gone. you used to be able to gksu firefox &
[21:11] <chrisccoulson> yeah, it's been gone for a long time ;)
[21:11] <LLStarks> but looking forward, is that a viable option
[21:12] <LLStarks> make the user assume all risk
[21:12] <chrisccoulson> not really, especially seeing as this won't be a problem in future (where we're pushing out major updates to all supported releases at the same time)
[21:13] <chrisccoulson> it will be just like chromium then ;)
[21:13] <LLStarks> ah, nice
[21:14] <LLStarks> this still the latest spec? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Lucid/FirefoxNewSupportModel
[21:15] <fta> chrisccoulson, chromium still suffers from n days in the security queue
[21:15] <fta> + delay
[21:15] <chrisccoulson> fta - hmm, waiting on armel and other arches by any chance?
[21:16] <fta> only partially, it's also waiting for human resources and testers
[21:16] <chrisccoulson> LLStarks, yeah, sort of. that's a bit out of date now, and we used that spec to drive 3.6 to all supported releases
[21:16] <fta> from what i can see
[21:16] <chrisccoulson> but we will be going 1 step further now
[21:18] <chrisccoulson> fta - hmmm, that's a pain. do you run the test-suite in chromium? (i think i've asked you this already)
[21:18] <chrisccoulson> i'd like the test-suite in firefox to reduce some of the human effort required to test :)
[21:19] <fta> i used to, for a long time, but i had to disable so many tests because of the build env restrictions that it didn't make sense anymore
[21:19] <chrisccoulson> fta - which sorts of restrictions? just network access or other restrictions?
[21:20] <fta> not to mention that it tooks hours to build, and even more hours to run
[21:20] <fta> yep, no network, no display, no input
[21:20] <fta> nowadays, it's also no GPU
[21:20] <chrisccoulson> fta - did you try xvfb for the display?
[21:21] <chrisccoulson> the network access is a pain
[21:21] <chrisccoulson> and do automated tests require input? i don't have an issue with that particularly
[21:21] <fta> sure, i had a long pipe with xvfb, timeout, gdb
[21:23] <fta> chrisccoulson, http://paste.ubuntu.com/584498/
[21:27] <micahg> fta: the biggest delay on chromium ATM is the build time :)
[21:31] <fta> micahg, why do we even have to wait for arm? it's different in all matters, why not split the uploads
[21:34] <micahg> fta: not going to have 2 source packages for the same thing, the only reason we do it for openjdk is that the newer openjdk doesn't work with arm yet
[21:35] <fta> no, not 2 src packages, but upload once the 32/64 builds are tested
[21:35] <fta> that's what most of the users need
[21:36] <micahg> fta: I don't think we can split the publishing like that, jdstrand ^^
[21:37] <fta> micahg, when we find something wrong with arm, we postpone the fix until the next upgrade anyway
[21:38] <micahg> fta: that depends on how badly the update is needed as well
[21:38] <fta> hot security fixes for the masses prevail over arm fixes
[21:38] <fta> well, until now at least
[21:39] <jdstrand> LP does not allow pocket copying of a build after the fact
[21:40] <jdstrand> eg, we publish i386 and amd64 then publish when arm is not done
[21:40] <jdstrand> arm is left out in the cold and needs a new source upload
[21:40] <jdstrand> we have skipped arm in the past for chromium with important fixes, fwiw
[21:41] <fta> tomorrow's update will also have a long list of hot fixes
[21:48] <fta> ..along with arm fixes from the previous upload :P
[21:49] <micahg> fta: heh, we'll play it by ear, but the earlier tomorrow the better as we generally don't like pushing out fixes on Friday
[21:49] <micahg> s/don't like/try to avoid/ :)
[21:50] <fta> not my call, i'm waiting for the upstream tag
[21:50] <micahg> fta: I understand, not trying to pressure you :)
[21:50] <fta> i have an idea of what it will be but i won't be sure until it's out
[22:25] <fta> micahg, libvpx 0.9.6 in natty is a security update, why isn't it in maverick and lucid?
[22:25] <micahg> fta: we generally patch stable releases vs full updates
[22:26] <fta> makes stuff hard to follow..
[22:26] <micahg> fta: there's more than the one that was backported to 0.9.5?
[22:26] <fta> not sure
[22:26] <micahg> I don't see any open CVEs
[22:27] <fta> it seems it fixed at least cve-2010-4489
[22:27] <ubot2> fta: libvpx, as used in Google Chrome before 8.0.552.215 and possibly other products, allows remote attackers to cause a denial of service (out-of-bounds read) via a crafted WebM video.  NOTE: this vulnerability exists because of a regression. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2010-4489)
[22:27] <micahg> fta: right, that was backported to 0.9.5-2
[22:28] <micahg> and that was pushed to stable releases when chromium upped the build-dep
[22:28] <micahg> s/build-dep/dep
[23:42] <LLStarks> gfd firefox. it won't let me click certain  links.
[23:42] <LLStarks> I WANT MY FIVE DAY FORECAST!
[23:46] <micahg> LLStarks: I'm using forecastfox w/out issue in firefox 4
[23:46] <LLStarks> yeah, that's not it
[23:46] <LLStarks> i can't click on page links after the page loads
[23:46] <LLStarks> just the tabs and interface
[23:47] <LLStarks> i think shifting window focus unlocks it or something
[23:47] <LLStarks> yup.
[23:48] <LLStarks> okay, this sucks
[23:49] <LLStarks> can't click or highlight anything
[23:49] <LLStarks> no right-click


[17:52] <ojwb> morning
[19:17] <ibeardslee> morning
[19:31] <Atamira> morning
[20:42] <chilts> morning
[20:56] <thumper> morning
[22:13] <mwhudson> morning


[01:58] <valorie> mparillo: sorry, was in a meeting
[01:58] <valorie> you referred to the download graphic
[01:58] <valorie> I didn't check it, sorry
 fw 5.87 running fine here.  Seems to have fixed the GTK windows causing strange refresh (flashing) issues on NVidaia cards after resume from sleep.
[04:14] <valorie> good to know
[04:14] <valorie> I've not upgraded this laptop yet
[13:20] <BluesKaj> Hi folks
[15:06] <BluesKaj> is this accurate?...development will kick off with the usual toolchain upload on October 21st. https://9to5linux.com/ubuntu-22-04-lts-slated-for-release-on-april-21st-2022
[15:13] <mamarley> The repository already exists and I'm building PPA packages for Jammy right now!
[15:20] <BluesKaj> mamarley, cool :-)
[15:34] <BluesKaj> sed'd my sources.list and hosts/hostname to jammy, 350 upgrades to jammy were sucessful :-)
[15:39] <mamarley> Dang, you beat me!
[15:40] <BluesKaj> hehe
[15:42] <BluesKaj> well, i took a chance I guess.
[15:43] <BluesKaj> my setup is pretty generic, no oddball drivers etc needed
[15:48] <BluesKaj> Intel i5 cpu, 16GB Ram, onboard graphics etc
[19:37] <valorie> it's generally super-safe at this point, since jammy=impish
[19:52] <clivejo> jammy = safe?
[20:03] <santa_> it seems it's safe, but afaics is no longer "the same than impish"
[20:03] <santa_> i.e. I have seen a big bunch of updates now
[20:58] <clivejo> anyone using Plasma on wayland?
 I keep trying Plasma on Wayland on my hybrid laptop.  I keep encountering minor issues that cause me to switch back to X.  Issue include apps not responding to clicks from system tray, hi-dpi browsers still blurry when scaled (running custom flags to run in wayland mode has been hit and miss in the past), wine requires a special patched version to run, and middle click mouse paste works intermittenlty.
[21:07] <clivejo> what version of Plasma?
 5.23
[21:08] <clivejo> @DarinMiller nice to see you BTW!
 likewise!
[21:09] <clivejo> I'm having issues getting into Plasma, sddm isn't playing ball!
[21:10] <clivejo> stupid NVidia
 trying wayland now.... and wine-staging is working without any additional patching....!
 middle click mouse paste still fails between gtk (browser)  and terminal...
 I am waiting for the 490 drivers to land in the graphics ppa.  NVidia should be seamless when they land... I have yet see anyone confirm though....
[21:16] <clivejo> have to launch it via tty with  dbus-run-session startplasma-wayland
 Wayland is very close though.  And I love how smooth it is.
[21:17] <clivejo> been trying a git build of sddm to use wayland
 On Solas?  Working fine on Kubuntu 21.10.  However, it switches my gpu from NVidia to intel as I am not modesetting on boot.
[21:18] <clivejo> Ubuntu sddm have wayland support?
 Yes. I installed the wayland packages and wayland is one of the options in the SDDM menu.
[21:20] <clivejo> I mean sddm launches using wayland instead of X
[21:21] <clivejo> DisplayServer=wayland
 Oh!
 How does one know which DS SDDM is using?
[21:23] <clivejo> unless you using a git build, probably x
 Makes sense.
[21:24] <clivejo> neon must be working on it, I see sitter working on bits
 That would have been a good question for Nate in today's reddit AMA session earlier today...
 https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/qa1hne/kde_25th_anniversary_ask_aleix_pol_lydia/
[21:27] <clivejo> I'd like to experience an entirely wayland experience
[21:27] <clivejo> x is so 20th century :P
 Same here!
[21:29] <clivejo> certainly won't be buying NVidia again, that's for sure!
 I am happy to see AMD CPU and GPU progress over  last few years.
 On a similar note, this RH dev. show what is now possible with modern laptops and eGPU's... I had no idea this was working under linux: https://twitter.com/GloriousEggroll/status/1449270751425699843
[21:33] <clivejo> yeah, genuine effort to work with and support Linux


[13:24] <brainwash> please change the importance of bug 1301056 to wishlist
[20:25] <brainwash> please change the importance of bug 1301056 to wishlist
[20:28] <brainwash> also bug 1301802


[15:00]  * slangasek waves
[15:00] <robru> o/
[15:00] <pitti> goedendag!
[15:00] <caribou> \o
[15:01] <pitti> slangasek: can I go first/early today? I'm currently in a train station, travelling back from the sprint; but I need to leave in ~ 10 min
[15:01] <slangasek> "A goedendag (also rendered godendac, godendard, godendart, and sometimes conflated with the related plançon) was a weapon originally used by the militias of Medieval Flanders in the 14th century, notably during the Franco-Flemish War."
[15:01] <slangasek> pitti: ack
[15:01] <sil2100> o/
[15:02] <slangasek> #startmeeting
[15:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jul 21 15:02:05 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:02] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[15:02] <pitti> slangasek: uh, that was sarcasm at the extreme, I'd say :)
[15:02] <slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
[15:03] <slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
[15:03] <slangasek> robru slangasek barry bdmurray tdaitx xnox chiluk doko mwhudson caribou sil2100 cyphermox pitti infinity
[15:03] <slangasek> ... but pitti goes first
[15:03] <pitti> Mon-Wed: mini-sprint with seb128, Laney, and tedg for converting session startup from session bus/upstart to user bus/systemd; good progress, some bugs/holes found (no surprise), see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/convergence-y-replace-upstart for current status
[15:03] <robru> yay
[15:03] <pitti> lxd: debug failure on mounting the root fs (#1602192)
[15:03] <pitti> debug and propose a fix for networking restart/ssh deadlock (#1584393)
[15:03] <pitti> (done)
[15:03] <robru> lp:bileto
[15:03] <robru> * verbose britney logs for debugging purposes
[15:03] <robru> * status job is 99% done, unit tests are done, just a few rough edges to sort out and more testing needed
[15:03] <robru> lp:cupstream2distro
[15:03] <robru> * check dest archive first for supported arches before falling back on main_archive.
[15:03] <robru> (done)
[15:05] <slangasek>  * prepped for this week's snappy sprint
[15:05] <slangasek>  * ubuntu-image: we have an image that can boot to grub under UEFI; more refinement needed
[15:05] <slangasek>  * working through bug reports around the secureboot policy change in latest kernel SRUs (LP: #1604873 et al)
[15:05] <slangasek>  * mid-cycle planning
[15:05] <slangasek>  * some work on un-sticking transitions in proposed-migration; haskell almost got there, then got wedged on an unreproducible (on porter box) armhf build failure halfway up the stack
[15:05] <slangasek>  * travel swap day tomorrow; mid-cycle next week in .nl
[15:06] <slangasek> (done)
[15:06] <slangasek> barry:
[15:06] <barry> all ubuntu-image all the time
[15:06] <barry> --done--
[15:06] <bdmurray> research into how hwe support works in update-manager
[15:06] <bdmurray> forward port of hwe support to Trusty, Yakkety
[15:06] <bdmurray> ubuntu-release-upgrader bug triage
[15:06] <bdmurray> tested LP: #1603436 (python2.7 Xenial regression-update bug)
[15:06] <bdmurray> ✔ done
[15:06] <tdaitx> = OpenJDK security update
[15:06] <tdaitx> - Packaged, tested, and released OpenJDK 8 package for the security team for Xenial and Wily; a Yakkety package is also available
[15:06] <tdaitx> - Backporting security patches for OpenJDK 7 ongoing
[15:06] <tdaitx> = Merges
[15:06] <tdaitx> - isc-dhcp onhold while I worked on the security update
[15:06] <tdaitx> = Other
[15:07] <tdaitx> - Will be away today afternoon and tomorrow the whole day (finally moving to a new place)
[15:07] <tdaitx> - There's a good chance I will be working from a shared office or similar next week while I wait for an ISP technician to check service 'availability
[15:07] <tdaitx> (done)
[15:07] <slangasek> xnox:
[15:07] <xnox> * 16.04.1 iso testing, ubiquity, SRU finalisation
[15:07] <xnox> * zua - fixing apparmor/libvirt/qemu integration
[15:07] <xnox> * opencryptoki upgrade for s390x
[15:07] <xnox> * mdadm with raid fixes in debian (to fix fallout bugs & to merge into ubuntu)
[15:07] <xnox> * mdadm isms is outstanding
[15:07] <xnox> * btrfs upload pending
[15:08] <xnox> ..
[15:08] <slangasek> chiluk: ?
[15:08] <bdmurray> xnox: have you seen bug 1599428?
[15:09] <xnox> bdmurray, yes. among others... failure to boot currently higher on my list.
[15:10] <bdmurray> xnox: okay, that sounds important. ;-)
[15:10] <slangasek> doko: are you back today, or not until tomorrow?
[15:10] <doko> first day back in Berlin (good timing, all SRU regressions already fixed ;p), catching up on email
[15:10] <doko> so, nothing more
[15:10] <slangasek> ok :)
[15:10] <slangasek> caribou:
[15:10] <caribou>  Bugfix:
[15:10] <caribou>   dpkg status file corrupt
[15:10] <caribou>   - Investigating landscape LDS
[15:10] <caribou> Launchpad & Public
[15:10] <caribou>   Multiple makedumpfile bugfix
[15:10] <caribou>   LP: #1570093 - multipath-tools sponsor
[15:11] <caribou> Meetings
[15:11] <caribou>  Paid Timeout
[15:11] <caribou> & I'm off for the next three weeks on vacation as of friday
[15:11] <caribou>  ☑ Done
[15:11] <sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
[15:11] <sil2100> - RTM status meetings
[15:11] <sil2100> - OTA-12:
[15:11] <sil2100>   * Sanity-checking all rc image contents
[15:11] <sil2100>   * Announcing and discussing the additional delay requested by the manufacturer
[15:11] <sil2100> - Touch xenial:
[15:11] <slangasek> Paid Timeout?
[15:11] <sil2100>   * Noticed additional missing packages in arm64 xenial builds
[15:11] <sil2100>   * Wrote a separate script checking for unbuilt binaries for arm64
[15:11] <sil2100>   * Prepared, tested and landed silo with multiple packages rebuilt for arm64
[15:11] <sil2100>   * Investigating further build failures in the rootfs
[15:11] <sil2100> - Discussing OTA-13 release dates
[15:11] <sil2100> - Looking into the KPI instrumentation PPA implementation
[15:11] <caribou> slangasek: PTO or whatever you wan to call it
[15:11] <sil2100> - Prepping a bileto pre hook for address-book-app to unblock it from yakkety
[15:11] <sil2100> - Adding missing devices to commitlog generation
[15:11] <sil2100> - Looking into the goget-ubuntu-touch new landing
[15:11] <sil2100> - Helping Timo in reviewing some code and proposals for moving SDK off the seeds
[15:11] <slangasek> ah :)
[15:12] <sil2100> - SRUing the xorg-server arm64-enablement bits we published to xenial-overlay
[15:12] <sil2100> - Backporting recent per-device-redirect changes to the s-i testability branch
[15:12] <sil2100> (done)
[15:13] <slangasek> cyphermox is out
[15:13] <slangasek> pitti has already gone
[15:13] <slangasek> infinity is at the snappy sprint this week
 snappy sprint, arm64 ISO, self-loathing, illness, snappy sprint, 16.04.1 release.
[15:13] <slangasek> ^^ summary :)
[15:13] <slangasek> any questons?
[15:14] <xnox> and 16.04.01 is out 20 minutes ago =)
[15:14] <slangasek> yes but the website is not updated yet
[15:14] <barry> infinity's reports are so uplifting
[15:15] <slangasek> The underrated sequel to the Hunter S. Thompson classic, "snappy and self-loathing in Heidelberg"
[15:15] <barry> :D
[15:16] <slangasek> seeing no questions...
[15:16] <slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
[15:16] <slangasek> anything else for today?
[15:16] <slangasek> feature freeze coming up, everybody feeling good about yakkety?
[15:18] <barry> pretty good from the python side
[15:18] <slangasek> gcc6 test rebuild looks only moderately awful compared to the baseline
[15:18] <slangasek> a bunch of build failures still because of debhelper compat 4 being declared obsolete
[15:19] <slangasek> hopefully we'll pick up fixes for most of those from Debian (especially for main); please stay on top of merges to make sure we pick up any fixes
[15:19] <slangasek> [LINK] http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20160701-yakkety.html
[15:19] <xnox> #webops working on the website deployment
[15:21] <barry> i'll take a look at the relevant main failures (we need a new dh-python in debian to fix the zope.interface one)
[15:22] <chiluk> sorry slangasek.. nothing from me ... I've been distracted with maas 2.0 cases lately, so nothing you guys care about.
[15:22] <slangasek> chiluk: ok :)
[15:22] <slangasek> sounds like that covers us then for this week
[15:22] <slangasek> oh
[15:23] <slangasek> volunteer to run the meeting next week, since I'll be sprinting?
[15:24] <slangasek> xnox: thanks for volunteering!
[15:24] <slangasek> #endmeeting
[15:24] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jul 21 15:24:58 2016 UTC.
[15:24] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-07-21-15.02.moin.txt
[15:25] <slangasek> thanks :)
[15:25] <caribou> thanks slangasek & see you in August
[15:25] <xnox> slangasek, &> pitti
[15:26] <tdaitx> thanks all!
[15:26] <barry> thanks!
[16:29] <pitti> slangasek: ugh, FF already? time flies :)
[16:29] <pitti> slangasek: FYI, I got a name for the network YAML thing and approved config paths, so this is unblocked
[16:59] <belkinsa> #startmeeting Community Council Check-In
[16:59] <meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jul 21 16:59:52 2016 UTC.  The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[16:59] <meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
[17:00] <belkinsa> Who is all for the meeting today?
[17:00] <belkinsa> #chair czajkowski
[17:00] <meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa czajkowski
[17:00] <czajkowski> aloha
[17:01] <belkinsa> Let's wait five minutes for the rest to come.
[17:01] <czajkowski> nods
[17:01] <belkinsa> We need members from the Desktop and the Developer Membership Board teams.
[17:02] <sil2100> I'm here o/ (from the DMB)
[17:02] <belkinsa> sil2100: thank you for coming.
[17:02] <czajkowski> sil2100: thanks
[17:02] <sil2100> But I think we were supposed to be here officially in 30 minutes
[17:03] <belkinsa> sil2100: that is true, but if none from the Desktop team come, we may have to start with you.
[17:03] <belkinsa> Agenda:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:03] <sil2100> Should I try pinging the rest of the DMB?
[17:04] <belkinsa> Yes, please.
[17:04] <tsimonq2> Community Council, could we please get a date for the next Lubuntu check-in?
[17:04] <czajkowski> tsimonq2: it's not on the list will get it amended after the meeting
[17:05] <tsimonq2> thank you czajkowski :)
[17:05] <belkinsa> czajkowski: I pinged the desktop team in their channel.
[17:05] <czajkowski> nods
[17:05] <czajkowski> sil2100: any more DMB folks?
[17:06] <sil2100> Poked them on #ubuntu-devel, but it seems everyone was waiting for 17:30 UTC
[17:06]  * micahg is here
[17:06] <rbasak> o/
[17:06] <czajkowski> #topic DMB check in
[17:06] <czajkowski> great :)
[17:06] <belkinsa> Are you both of Desktop team?
[17:06] <rbasak> DMB.
[17:06] <sil2100> micahg, rbasak: thanks for popping up!
[17:07] <belkinsa> Okay, perfect.
[17:07] <czajkowski> thanks for coming folks
[17:07] <belkinsa> And thank you, czajkowski.
[17:07] <czajkowski> so micahg rbasak sil2100 how are things in the land of DMB ?
[17:07] <czajkowski> care to catch us up
[17:07] <rbasak> So I'm new on the DMB, still learning the ropes.
[17:07] <micahg> we've actually had a nice stream of applicants recently
[17:08] <micahg> not a full agenda, but usually we have at least 1
[17:08] <rbasak> I feel that we're a little slow in getting stuff done for people after approvals, partly because most of us are learning the ropes, and partly because some approvals need a TB member to make them actually happen, and we have only one (very busy) overlapping person.
[17:08] <rbasak> I'd like to do that better, but I think we will as we get the hang of things.
[17:08]  * belkinsa nods
[17:09] <sil2100> I guess it happens for those more complicated applications
[17:09] <czajkowski> rbasak: do you guys discuss before hand or wait till the meeting, is thre a channel for you to discuss items ?
[17:09] <sil2100> Since we did have a few core-dev applications that just went through smoothly, with all permissions given on the same day
[17:09] <rbasak> Yes, the straightforward ones are pretty quick.
[17:10] <rbasak> On another note, I feel that we barely made quorum on almost every meeting.
[17:10] <czajkowski> rbasak: is there a way to move things to email as I know it's hard to get everyone online at one time
[17:10] <belkinsa> Is it because we all have lives or is there another problem?
[17:10] <sil2100> I apologize for this week, I actually joined the DMB meeting place a few minutes before it starting but then got preempted by life
[17:10] <rbasak> czajkowski: we have a private channel, but don't use it much.
[17:10] <czajkowski> I know online meetings like this are useful but you can see even now it's hard to get all the CC online
[17:11] <czajkowski> sil2100: life is very complicated at times ;)
[17:11] <belkinsa> Indeed, we only have two of us here at the meeting.
[17:11] <sil2100> I guess ;)
[17:11] <rbasak> czajkowski: we can defer to the ML, yes. I don't think we've had to do that yet. We would have had to at the last meeting had the applicant also not forgotten to show :)
[17:11] <czajkowski> rbasak: so we in the CC have a channel we idle in and that has really helped over the last few years to get togeter catch up and leave feedback
[17:11] <czajkowski> mayeb to encouraage folks to become more idle on there?
[17:12] <belkinsa> +1 on the idle idea
[17:12]  * rbasak idles in there already
[17:12] <micahg> well, I still need to process the doodle poll results for meeting times, that should help with quorum
[17:12] <czajkowski> rbasak: yes that can be hard, we do try and reach out adn send reminders, but again life kicks in, do you email out before hand to remind people
[17:12] <rbasak> It's much easier for me though, since I'm full time paid by Canonical to be on IRC basically.
[17:12] <sil2100> rbasak: what's the channel name? I'm a newbie and probably missed the channel name somewhere
[17:12] <rbasak> sil2100: #ubuntu-dmb
[17:12] <czajkowski> what has helped the CC this last few months is having our meetings in a google calendar we can subscribe to and get notifications
[17:13] <sil2100> rbasak: could you invite me? It seems invite-only ;)
[17:13] <sil2100> rbasak: thanks!
[17:13] <belkinsa> micahg: Are you, as a team, working on getting a better time/date to reach the quotem?
[17:13] <micahg> yes
[17:13] <rbasak> sil2100: I need to figure out how to do that :)
[17:13] <belkinsa> micahg: I see.
[17:13] <micahg> rbasak: I'll take care of it
[17:13] <rbasak> Thanks!
[17:14] <czajkowski> Is there anything the CC can do to help or improve with ?
[17:14] <sil2100> czajkowski: we also have a calendar with all the meetings scheduled, and it does seem to help to some extent
[17:14] <rbasak> sil2100: we do? :)
[17:14]  * rbasak has his own calendar entries
[17:14] <belkinsa> You can have one that can send out reminders to the Mailing-list when there is a meeting.  Like I did for this one.
[17:14] <sil2100> rbasak: yes! I thought I added you there, hmm
[17:14] <sil2100> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/
[17:15] <sil2100> rbasak: yeah, looks like you're added there, at least your @ubuntu.com account
[17:15] <sil2100> I proceeded as per the fridge instructions, might have messed up something but so far it worked fine for me ;p
[17:16] <rbasak> sil2100: maybe it needs to be my @canonical.com account, as that's what Google thinks I am. But don't worry about it - I have my own entries that seem to work. We can figure out something if/when we change our times.
[17:16] <czajkowski> so in general things are going well with the DMB ?
[17:16] <rbasak> Is there anything the CC can do to help or improve with> I can't think of anything, thanks. Unless someone else can?
[17:17] <czajkowski> my only thinking would be if you could or maybe you do and I am not seeing it annouce new members?
[17:17] <rbasak> czajkowski: I'd say so. I'd like to do better in terms of delays for some applicants after approval, but I think we're on an improving trend
[17:17] <czajkowski> do you?
[17:17] <rbasak> It's in our post-meeting chair checklist. I'm not sure how well it is actually getting performed (we have a rotating chair).
[17:18] <rbasak> Perhaps we should add it as a specific meeting action.
[17:20] <czajkowski> rbasak: it would be great to see it posting to the fridge or even on planet.u.c so the ubuntu newsletter could get an update - I know pleia2 is always looking for new content
[17:20] <czajkowski> I think that would raise the profile of the DMB and applications
[17:20] <micahg> yeah, I'm notorious for forgetting to do that :(
[17:20] <rbasak> czajkowski: agreed. We should do something to make sure this happens.
[17:21] <belkinsa> Maybe use Trello?
[17:22] <rbasak> We're quite good at carrying forward meeting actions, and nominating a DMB member to handle an applicant approval, so what if we wrote up a "new approved applicant checklist" and created an actual meeting action to complete that checklist?
[17:22] <rbasak> Trello works too if everyone is happy with that.
[17:22] <czajkowski> rbasak: fantastic :)
[17:22] <czajkowski> thanks
[17:22] <czajkowski> I think that would be great for all to see new applications and community activity.
[17:22] <belkinsa> rbasak: that also works.
[17:23] <sil2100> Yeah, I was wondering recently what happened to that
[17:23] <rbasak> I'll add an item to the agenda of the next meeting to decide what we want to do to solve this.
[17:23] <sil2100> Since I remember new members being announced in the past
[17:24] <rbasak> (done)
[17:24] <sil2100> rbasak: thanks!
[17:25] <czajkowski> Thank you :)
[17:25] <czajkowski> is there anything else we can help with ?
[17:27] <rbasak> I guess not.
[17:27] <rbasak> Thank you for your time! I think it was useful to catch up with you. I appreciate it must take a while to get round every team.
[17:28] <belkinsa> And thank you for coming.
[17:28] <sil2100> How often do such catch-ups happen for a selected team?
[17:28] <belkinsa> I think once or twice a cycle.
[17:29] <sil2100> Ok, was just curious, thanks :)
[17:29] <sil2100> And thank you for your time!
[17:29] <belkinsa> Not a problem.
[17:29] <czajkowski> once a cycle
[17:31] <czajkowski> #topic Desktop
[17:31] <czajkowski> anyone here from the Desktop team ?
[17:32] <belkinsa> If not, we can reschedule the meeting.  Can't we?
[17:32] <belkinsa> #chair mhall119
[17:32] <meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa czajkowski mhall119
[17:34] <czajkowski> sure
[17:34] <mhall119> will's not online, I pinged seb128 but no reply yet
[17:34] <belkinsa> Alright, I already added it to here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
[17:35] <czajkowski> belkinsa: need to add lubuntu also
[17:35] <czajkowski> #endmeeting
[17:35] <meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jul 21 17:35:52 2016 UTC.
[17:35] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-07-21-16.59.moin.txt
[17:35] <czajkowski> thanks folks
[17:36] <belkinsa> Thanks everyone for coming.
[17:36] <belkinsa> czajkowski: Lubuntu is already added.
[17:36] <belkinsa> czajkowski: check-mate :D
[17:38] <sil2100> o/


[19:52] <ceauke> hello
[19:53] <persia> Hey
[19:53] <ceauke> ah cool
[19:53] <ceauke> someone is here. I haven't irc'ed in ages
[19:54] <ceauke> quick question: I'm new to laptop testing and I have an issue with the hibernate function. I want to log a bug for it but don't know to which component it belogns
[19:55] <ceauke> is this part of the kernel?
[20:08] <persia> How are you testing hibernate?  If you're just tossing values into /proc, yeah, that would be the kernel.
[20:09] <persia> If you're using some userspace tool, it's less clear where the bug resides.
[20:11] <ceauke> hi persia. thanks for responding.
[20:12] <ceauke> I'm clicking the power button on the menu/task bar and select hibernate then
[20:14] <persia> OK.  Take a look at pm-hibernate from the pm-utils package.  Going through that you ought find a way to manually trigger the hibernation in the kernel.
[20:14] <persia> If that works, and the GUI method doesn't, the bug lies in the GUI tool (e.g. gnome-power-manager).
[20:14] <persia> If that doesn't work, the bug lies in the kernel.
[20:15] <persia> If by going through the pm-utils code you can't find any way to actually hibernate, file the bug against pm-utils.
[20:15] <persia> If you need help tracking this down, I'd recommend asking for help in finding the right package in #ubuntu-bugs.
[20:16] <persia> This channel is mostly about strategies to discover problems.  Once you have a known problem, #ubuntu-bugs is a better place to find out how to get it reported correctly.
[20:21] <ceauke> cheers man. this is great info! :-)