[12:27] <tonyyarusso> "!factoid | someone", "!factoid | otherperson" should "someone: blahblah", "otherperson: see above"
[12:34] <tonyyarusso> Any of you folks made yourself Ubuntu business cards?  I need to figure out how to do templates in OOo...(haven't done this since my Windows days)
[12:35] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, jenda was talking about the possiblity of printing them properly
[12:35] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, could work out pretty cheap but well done
[12:35] <LjL> tonyyarusso: would that help at all? it'd still be one wasted line, just like it is now. shorter, maybe, but what is annoying to people and clients is the fact that there *is* a message, more than its actual length
[12:36] <tonyyarusso> LjL: Well, depends on the factoid.  For the 7-line factoids it would.  Otherwise, probably not necessary.
[12:37] <tonyyarusso> PriceChild: Well, I already have a bag of cardstock that I'm looking to use up.
[12:37] <LjL> tonyyarusso: well, i'm seeing this from a GUI-based client perspective, where length of lines doesn't really matter much, but scrolling does, given QtTextBrowser's sluggishness
[12:37] <LjL> anyway i'll file a bug
[12:37] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, fair enough :)
[12:46] <LjL> tonyyarusso: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots/+bug/80671
[12:46] <Ubugtu> Malone bug 80671 in ubuntu-bots "Ubotu's repeat protection may need improvements" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]
[12:47] <tonyyarusso> LjL: looks good
[12:48] <Hobbsee_> how are we doing?
[12:50] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Depends who you ask I think
[12:50] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: oh?
[12:51] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: There was some interesting stuff earlier, although I wasn't around either.  See the message on the ML, and then this channel after that.
[12:51] <LjL> lots of mess...ages
[12:51] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: i saw the ML stuff - the message from Mez
[12:51] <LjL> yeah there was some heat around that
[12:52] <LjL> apparently resulting in Hawkwind resigning from his op position among other things
[12:52] <Hobbsee> oh lovely.  why?
[12:52] <tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: good to hear
[12:52] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: because he didnt agree with the way it was handled (short version)
[12:53] <ompaul> gnomefreak, that statement qualifies a lot of things
[12:54] <gnomefreak> ompaul: i know
[12:56] <gnomefreak> ompaul: he was very general on why he was resigning. something like i dont agree the way ops does things
[12:56] <gnomefreak> with*
[12:56] <LjL> do*
[12:56] <gnomefreak> the *
[12:56] <gnomefreak> i really screwed that one up
[12:56] <ompaul> *I can read anyway*
[12:56] <ompaul> :)
[12:56] <gnomefreak> :)
[12:57] <Hobbsee> there's one thing, and i say this without having read all the logs, that bothers me about somerville32 and hawkwind - it's that they want to change things, yet they havent had to deal with users like malt last night, or spam wars, or whatever.  now, maybe it's my timezone, and i just dont see it, but i dont think it's fair to say that the current thing is screwed up beyond believe, and to judge us by the way we responded, until they go through
[12:57] <Hobbsee> it themselves.
[12:58] <LjL> Hobbsee: well, Hawkwind did say there was more than just that that got on his nerves, however he wasn't inclined to explain it all, he sounded more like he was just fed up
[12:59] <Hobbsee> i've yet to see hawkwind deal with people in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-offtopic.  it's *not* the same thing as banning in a small channel.  if this kind of thing went on in a small channel, it would be cause for concern.
[12:59] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: i think somerville32 was more agaisnt the sending the user to an auto kline channel (atleast was well known for that)
[12:59] <Hobbsee> but with the kind of people we're dealing with....and the anon. proxies, etc....
[12:59] <LjL> Hobbsee: at any rate, one thing we've been discussing - and i mention it because i myself agree it shouldn't have been done - is the sending of malt to a channel that would cause him a k-line (or maybe not, but that was the intention anyway). you saw that yourself, and laughed about it IIRC from the log...
[12:59] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: we had no staffers.  but yeah :P
[12:59] <LjL> now really, IMHO this is not likely to be a good thing to do is it
[01:00] <Hobbsee> LjL: probably not.  but i can see why Mez did it
[01:00] <gnomefreak> i saw the ban itself a ban as anyother ban that we may come across daily and if all bans are gonna be overlooked by other ops than the -ops team will fail to do its job correctly
[01:01] <gnomefreak> looked over
[01:01] <gnomefreak> damn its bad today
[01:01] <tonyyarusso> I can understand why someone might do it, but I can't condone it.  I think we can probably (at least mostly) agree that the auto-kline channel redirect was not the best idea.  Which would be good, b/c then we could focus on the rest of it, if needed.
[01:01] <Hobbsee> LjL: in truth, what *i* laughed at was that he fell for it - with such a knowledge of irc, and proxies, and ban evading, and everything else, he fell for the most known auto-kline channel.
[01:01] <PriceChild> Hobbsee, it isn't actually an auto k-line channel
[01:01] <LjL> Hobbsee: i can, too, but i'm rather pressed to make sure Mez and you and anybody else involved understand it wasn't too good an idea. other people here were even inclined to take action against Mez because of that... now, tricking somebody (who deserves it) into something as trivial as k-lining themselves, while fun, isn't really worth all the fuss that it'll create - and it has
[01:02] <gnomefreak> PriceChild: used to be
[01:02] <PriceChild> gnomefreak, yeah
[01:02] <tonyyarusso> PriceChild: Did you check?  What is it these days?
[01:02] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, jenda doesn't know
[01:02] <gnomefreak> tonyyarusso: invite only
[01:02] <Hobbsee> LjL: of course.  but after ~30 mins of him trying...
[01:02] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, I tried to get in over proxy and its invite only
[01:02] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, but its not officially registered or anything
[01:02] <tonyyarusso> PriceChild: k
[01:02] <ompaul> if I may make a comment - this reads just like the situation when I packed up my bags
[01:03] <gnomefreak> ompaul: yep only thing is everything is public now :(
[01:03] <LjL> ompaul: except i think, though of course i'm not you, that you would be more inclined to disagree with Hawkwind this time
[01:03] <ompaul> LjL, I tend to take the ops side who did the ban
[01:03] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: It does look similar...which is upsetting.  Although, somewhat different also.
[01:03] <Hobbsee> 07:31 <+Hawkwind> Sorry, he was also kicked by Hobbsee for admitting he knew he
[01:03] <Hobbsee>                   was speaking to a lady
[01:03] <Hobbsee> er, what?
[01:03] <LjL> gnomefreak: well we'll have time to see if that turns out to be a very big deal
[01:04] <gnomefreak> it was a simple ban why it got this out of hand needs to be addressed
[01:04] <Hobbsee> he was kicked because he was being damned annoying, and highly offensive.
[01:04] <Hobbsee> LjL: no, that was a different loser
[01:04] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: Any insight to add, given that?
[01:04] <LjL> Hobbsee, no use arguing against people who aren't even here
[01:04] <LjL> Hobbsee: yeah, i found that out from my logs
[01:04] <Hobbsee> i know...i'm just surprised...
[01:05] <ompaul> tonyyarusso, yes, however to do this I would like the floor, and point out this is an opinion, based on being in irc for some 13 or 14 years at this stage
[01:05] <LjL> the floor?
[01:05] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: Fine by me.
[01:06] <somerville32> Hobbsee, I think Hawkwind was just showing a lot of frustration - not just over this event.
[01:06] <mc44> LjL: ie shut up :)
[01:06] <LjL> ah right, alright
[01:06] <ompaul> LjL, to make my point and not be asked about it during it :)
[01:06] <Hobbsee> somerville32: quite likely.  however his frustration was misplaced - ie, didnt really say what was wrong
[01:06] <gnomefreak> once people accept responsiblity for thier actions than the appealing will go down and the ops argueing with ops will go down (everything that apokry.. and Hobbsee  did was just and the best way to handle it) the extras that came out maybe could have been thought about more before saying them
[01:06] <LjL> sure ompaul, i just didn't know the expression :)
[01:06] <Hobbsee> and who bans for 24hrs for pasting, btw?
[01:06] <Hobbsee> i thought the bans were lifted a few mins after...
[01:06] <ompaul> Hobbsee, me if the person does it a second or third time
[01:06] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: only repeat offenders
[01:07] <somerville32> Hobbsee, We've seen it.
[01:07] <LjL> Hobbsee: me, if you do it twice after i've told you
[01:07] <Hobbsee> ompaul: ah right.  that makes sense then
[01:07] <somerville32> Hobbsee, I don't think anyone disagrees that he should have been banned, etc. etc.
[01:07] <somerville32> I think people were upset with how it was handled and certain things people said and did
[01:08] <ompaul> so here you go, if someone else bans, I strongly suggest that other ops should leave any query on it for a while
[01:08] <ompaul> that could be up to an hour after
[01:08] <Hobbsee> somerville32: quite likely.  but until the first group of people actually handle a couple of these things, with repeat offenders and proxies - are you really licenced to comment?
[01:08] <ompaul> there is good reasoning behind this and it should be done privately
[01:08] <Hobbsee> particularly because you're usually getting abuse from the user as well
[01:09] <ompaul> if you go to someone while they are angry they will be defensive and then feel under threat
[01:09] <PuMpErNiCkLe> They got some ass to kline himself?  They've got skills.
[01:10] <Hobbsee> ompaul: exactly
[01:10] <ompaul> and that is what happened with me - I walked because I felt that I had just had a ban evader - who then went on to pick a fight with someone else ...
[01:10] <Hobbsee> PuMpErNiCkLe: ah, yeah...
[01:10] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: would it be a good idea to, for instance, /msg ompaul Hey - not sure I agree with that last ban; would appreciate discussion in 60 minutes if that's all right. ?
[01:10] <somerville32> Hobbsee, Yes,  I do feel I am. Does one need to participate in a war to have an opinion on wars?
[01:10] <ompaul> and I was really annoyed that I had to fight on two fronts as I saw it
[01:11] <LjL> pss can we let ompaul speak for a moment please?
[01:11] <ompaul> so then I read the logs of it the next day I blew up
[01:11] <tonyyarusso> Right, shoot.  /me shuts up.
[01:11] <ompaul> this was at that time a private channel and that was like a third front - i.e. exhausted
[01:12] <ompaul> so I said the most logical thing I could
[01:12] <ompaul> I am out of here
[01:12] <ompaul> -- now I made a point of saying I would go to a meeting
[01:12] <Hobbsee> somerville32: to understand the stress, and it coming at you from all corners about this guy - yes, you really do.  it's not like they've gone away for a while, and come back later - they're constantly at you.
[01:12] <ompaul> my understanding was it was here
[01:12] <ompaul> it moved ... to a logged channel
[01:12] <ompaul> I was not willing to come out with that stuff in such a meeting
[01:13] <ompaul> but hey you open it up to the world I know it is logged now
[01:13] <Hobbsee> somerville32: the more they badger, becoming more and more offensive and profane as they go on, is just going to make you want to get rid of them.  when done for long enough, any way to get rid of them effectively will do.
[01:13] <somerville32> Hobbsee, And thats when you ask another op to step in. We must always maintain a level of professionalism and emotional detachment. I've been in situation where I've gotten personally upset and thats ok.
[01:13] <somerville32> Hobbsee, I don't think anyone disagrees with the ban.
[01:14] <ompaul> so the side arguement goes on - and the parties have logs they can read this
[01:14] <Hobbsee> hey jenda
[01:14] <ompaul> tonyyarusso, the comment you gave there works
[01:14] <somerville32> Hobbsee, We see what the guy did - we saw him being purposely malicious, crude, and vulgar.
 ompaul: would it be a good idea to, for instance, /msg ompaul Hey - not sure I agree with that last ban; would appreciate discussion in 60 minutes if that's all right. ?
[01:14] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: Cool. *notes*
[01:14] <ompaul> tonyyarusso, and that would have been less devisive
[01:15] <ompaul> if that is the right spelling
[01:15] <somerville32> Hobbsee, The issue was the other stuff. Way too many people get involved and emotional involved.
[01:15] <ompaul> but I had had enough
[01:15] <somerville32> Hobbsee, The whole thing with Mez attempting to exploit his system and trying to trick him into visiting a channel which Mez believed to be an auto-kline channel was absolutely and completely wrong.
[01:16] <Hobbsee> somerville32: you'd have to speak to Mez about that.  also remember that if a staffer with kline powers had been around, the guy whould have also been klined.
[01:16] <Hobbsee> -h
[01:16] <LjL> ompaul: may i?
[01:16] <somerville32> Hobbsee, Furthermore, contacting the ISP... way out of line.
[01:17] <ompaul> tonyyarusso, the volunteer got to the point - where they said I can waste my time better
[01:17] <ompaul> LjL, yeap I am done
[01:17] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: Makes sense.
[01:17] <Hobbsee> that was kinda separate - discovering that he was abusing his contract with the ISP, and reporting it.
[01:17] <Hobbsee> i mean, maybe it wasnt their place - but it's alos for the good of everyone else who uses that isp
[01:18] <tonyyarusso> When you say it "wasn't their place", how do you define that?
[01:18] <Hobbsee> as in, wasnt the guy's place to contact the ISP abotu the guy's abuse of his ISP
[01:19] <Hobbsee> and disobeying the terms of use in flaming, and running an IRC client.
[01:19] <tonyyarusso> Isn't it?  How else would they know?
[01:19] <Hobbsee> well, exactly.  hence the maybe
[01:19] <tonyyarusso> 'k
[01:19] <LjL> ompaul: i think it's worth noting that you say, on one hand, that the banner shouldn't be questioned right away, *and* on the other hand, that they should be questioned *later* (an hour, or whatever), if one disagrees with the ban. i think both points are important -- i think in the past, we've just tended to *never* question other ops' actions, or question them with third parties at a much later stage. but this has built up silent conflict
[01:19] <LjL> that exploded after a while, i believe. on the other hand, questioning everything right when it happens, as you say, is counter-productive too, as people are already upset and get even more so
[01:20] <tonyyarusso> I'm not inclined to report someone for running services, since their may or may not be Apache in the vicinity, but abuse, yes.
[01:20] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: i thought nmap told you what the service was?
[01:20] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: When I say may or may not, add a wink.
[01:20] <Hobbsee> heh
[01:20] <ompaul> Hobbsee, I can tell nmap strange things }:-> and I often do
[01:21] <ompaul> LjL, accurate take
[01:21] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: in my logs, he said he'd be ban evading.
[01:21] <Hobbsee> by proxy
[01:21] <Hobbsee> (in query, which i pasted in here)
[01:22] <ompaul> Hobbsee, you know you are right, we know you are right, anyone want to disagree
[01:22] <Hobbsee> at that point, you effectively lose all kindness, and the ops will fight you until you go away.
[01:22] <LjL> ompaul: another thought that's in my mind is that this "always give the possibility of a fair appeal" concept is excessive, and a waste of energies... really, sometimes IMHO people just don't deserve an appeal, and making a comedy here in #ubuntu-ops is a complete farce. that's my take, do you think i'm mistaken or missing something?
[01:22] <Hobbsee> i'm not sure that's wrong...
[01:22] <Hobbsee> LjL: i think it's useful sometimes...
[01:22] <LjL> Hobbsee: sometimes, sure
[01:22] <Hobbsee> LjL: but there's no reason to leave a guy that isnt going to change, etc
[01:23] <ompaul> LjL, I concur that not everyone needs an appeal
[01:23] <ompaul> I can prove that
[01:23] <LjL> Hobbsee: yes but it was made a point, before, that you ("you" as you personally and the other ops involved) didn't give this malt enough possibility of an appeal. judging from what i hear he did... that's ridiculous to me
[01:24] <Hobbsee> how much abuse were you suggesting that he could do?
[01:24] <tonyyarusso> LjL: I was one of the people who was pushing for always having a chance to be reviewed.  My intent was for being able to get a second op to look at it, not to have the same op have to waste more time on you.  Additionally, while I think that, the _moment_ they do something offensive on their review time, I have no problem closing it totally then.
[01:24] <Hobbsee> he was abusing mez, abusing myself, abusing this channel....hwo long do you think that should have gone on for?
[01:24] <LjL> Hobbsee: myself? honestly? i think he'd deserve a laugh in his face and an immediate ban from here. but the point ain't my guts feelings
[01:25] <tonyyarusso> I meant it not so much as an appeal as a review, as a check on our own ops.  If there were already more than one op present for the ban, it would no longer be necessary from my line of reasoning.
[01:26] <ompaul> sorry - minor interjection as I have not followed this arguement -                             it appears from what you said that for this person I would have sought a kline  - so if they klined themselves so be it
[01:26] <LjL> ompaul: i think i can give some convincing evidence too, but then *prove* it, perhaps not. if this were a court of law, the concept of always having the possibility of an appeal would surely be most important. however, *to me*, this place shouldn't work like a court of law - but i suppose other people see that as a fit model
[01:26] <ompaul> Lj
[01:26] <Hobbsee> LjL: surely people get sent out of the court of law if they're abusing the judges during their trial?
[01:26] <LjL> i guess they do
[01:26] <Hobbsee> surely the court doesnt just let them stay there, only abusing?
[01:26] <ompaul> Hobbsee, they do
[01:26] <ompaul> Hobbsee, they get contempt of court
[01:27] <Hobbsee> LjL: i think you're correct - as long as the person is actually being sane, and not abusive.
[01:27] <ompaul> bye bye for whatever usually 7 days or some such
[01:27] <LjL> Hobbsee: but right now i'm thinking, in general, of whether *having* an appeal procss is *always* worth having for *all* offenders. i'm not thinking specifically of malt's case
[01:27] <LjL> and i haven't fully read the logs, either
[01:27] <tonyyarusso> What do we mean by appeal?  I think that's a question that needs to be addressed.
[01:27] <LjL> see you ompaul
[01:28] <tonyyarusso> We often have users who think it means "hey, if I go whine a bit, maybe they'll let me off easy"
[01:28] <ompaul> LjL, no, that is what the court says :)
[01:28] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: your cloak saves you from the kline, BTW
[01:28] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: you just reconnect
[01:28] <LjL> tonyyarusso, right now i think it just means roughly "the person comes here, moans a bit, we talk, and in the end will still take the decision to the op who did the ban, who'll most likely just deny unbanning"
[01:28] <tonyyarusso> _I_ want it to be, "I think that may have been unfair/misunderstood.  Could I get a second opinion?"
[01:29] <LjL> ompaul: ah. whops :) indeed i was thinking that your current visits seemed to be quite more frequent than weekly =)
[01:29] <ompaul> tonyyarusso, I don't think that is fair to the person who was given the trust in the first place to be an op
[01:29] <tonyyarusso> LjL: In action anyway, but perception might need some work.
[01:29] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: I can see that.
[01:29] <ompaul> tonyyarusso, and it qualifies for a challenge to them
[01:29] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: Truthfully, it stemmed largely from wanting my own work reviewed :P
[01:30] <ompaul> tonyyarusso, so ask me or nalioth or someone else to look at it
[01:30] <tonyyarusso> If done well (ie, some miracle occurs.....), it could also lead users to a better understanding of what they need to change.
[01:30] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: That works too.
[01:30] <tonyyarusso> :)
[01:30] <Hobbsee> somerville32: you're free to take it ot the CC you know.  but most of the ops will step down, i suspect.
[01:31] <Hobbsee> and the rule of "dont criticise people unless you've walked a mile in their shoes" definetly applies.
[01:31] <ompaul> tonyyarusso, putting "IT UP TO" someone who just had to do the irc equivalent of take a baseball out to a random stranger and my not be feeling great after doing it
[01:31] <LjL> i wouldn't walk a centimeter in your shoes :P
[01:32] <ompaul> is as I have already said ..  very much an insult to them
[01:32] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: Hmm, point.
[01:32] <ompaul> Hobbsee, where is that from?
[01:32] <tonyyarusso> I have a thought:
[01:33] <Hobbsee> ompaul: that somerville32 was thinking of taking it to the CC?   earlier in the logs
[01:33] <Hobbsee> ompaul: is this channel still being logged somewhere?
[01:33] <ompaul> I think so
[01:33] <LjL> hmm i'm not sure it is yet
[01:33] <tonyyarusso> What if we made it policy to not review bans for users here until an hour after it had been issued?  Surely one hour to walk away from the computer and grab a sandwich won't kill anyone, so it's still minimal inconvenience to them, while giving time for issuing and observing ops to both calm down, and commence their in-pm discussion if applicable, but still giving a chance to appeal?
[01:33] <ompaul> my take on it after that meeting
[01:33] <tonyyarusso> Thoughts?
[01:34] <tonyyarusso> ubuntulog: is here
[01:34] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: what happens when they dont actually obey the ban, and keep coming back?
[01:34] <Hobbsee> sounds sane, otherwise
[01:34] <ompaul> Hobbsee, escalate get Freenode involved and have them removed
[01:34] <LjL> Hobbsee: i still, and will probably always, stand that ban evading = you're out and no appeal of any kind
[01:34] <LjL> but *shrug* that's just me
[01:34] <ompaul>  Hobbsee fire up xchat and hit them with lart
[01:35] <Hobbsee> ompaul: where freenode staffers are unavailable.
[01:35] <somerville32> 1. From the sounds of the e-mail, it is against their TOS to send obscene content - not the http server. 2. When do we decide if an appeal is allowed or not? I just don't see a fair way to determine when and/or if. Besides, if it is _clear_ that the user deserves it, the appeal should be rather quick 3. I think Hawkwind brought that "appeal" time issue up only because of prior incidents.
[01:35] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Then I say first return, send them a /msg explaining that ban evasion is bad, and they are welcome to come back in an hour.  If they continue after that, lay on the smackdown.
[01:35] <ompaul> Hobbsee, in that event queue it
[01:35] <Hobbsee> ompaul: queue?
[01:35] <apokryphos> I think any apoint about the appeal being handled badly is absolutely ridiculous
[01:35] <tonyyarusso> Ideally, send them the /msg _before_ they have a chance to come back evading
[01:35] <apokryphos> we heard him out, he was very abusive, he was banned
[01:36] <ompaul> Hobbsee, set it up as a message
[01:36] <ompaul> Hobbsee, for your local favorite freenoder
[01:36] <LjL> somerville32: 1) i have no idea 2) i think perhaps if three ops say "no, you were rightfully banned, shut up", if the user still whines, quiet them and be done 3) maybe, but he was saying this about *this* incident it seemed to me
[01:36] <tonyyarusso> apokryphos: I agree personally.  But, wasn't there, so would rather look at it systemically than individually, for my purposes at least.
[01:36] <ompaul> Hobbsee, at this stage you must know a couple of them
[01:36] <apokryphos> what happened after that we might be able to discuss, for sure. But he had a fair appeal (regardless of whether he deserved one), and he was abrasive
[01:37] <apokryphos> I'm also not all for a systematic process for everything
[01:37] <somerville32> LjL: It is hard to have time appreciation from reading logs. TBH, I think that is a non-issue anyhow.
[01:37] <Hobbsee> ompaul: ah right.
[01:37] <apokryphos> we are operators (humans), hence we use judgement
[01:37] <LjL> though really, *sigh*, we shouldn't have a *rule* to decide when an appeal's an appeal... it really should be obvious when someone is *that* abusive. but ok i'm living in my own world.
[01:38] <ompaul> apokryphos, did you get that on news at 11 ;-) cos you are right
[01:38] <somerville32> And I think your second point really hightlights a major issue - some of our attitudes towards users.
[01:38] <Hobbsee> somerville32: i think you should be in #ubuntu and have ops in there for a while.
[01:38] <apokryphos> ompaul: 8)
[01:38] <somerville32> Abusive user or non-abusive user, we must be professional and respectful at all times.
[01:39] <apokryphos> somerville32: so you agree that there is nothing contentious to the original appeal process?
[01:39] <LjL> professional, yeah, respectful, well yeah, though we don't have to treat them with golden gloves... *but* it doesn't mean you deserve more than 10 seconds of appeal *no matter what* you have done
[01:39] <somerville32> ...
[01:40] <LjL> if you're like the guy i tried for a while to give you a bantracker pointer too, do you deserve more than 10 seconds of my attention? no, really, no
[01:40] <apokryphos> also just read your comment about the CC now, somerville32
[01:40] <somerville32> The appeal process really doesn't exist
[01:40] <LjL> and that will never change with me
[01:40] <somerville32> People come in here and complain
[01:40] <somerville32> and nobody is going to reverse anything
[01:40] <somerville32> Infact, more people just get upset
[01:41] <apokryphos> we don't have to unban people for the sake of them appealing
[01:41] <apokryphos> which is what you seem to be suggesting
[01:41] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: Do you think my idea of an hour to cool down and discuss privately before that step would help that fact?
[01:41] <tonyyarusso> apokryphos: +1
[01:41] <LjL> that's ompaul's idea but anyway :P
[01:42] <ompaul> LjL, if it works it is in the public domain
[01:42] <apokryphos> somerville32: now, unless you're going to have weight in your point, you're going to have to actually demonstrate that there's something wrong in the appeal process
[01:42] <apokryphos> which consists of someone's ban not being reversed when it should have been
[01:42] <PriceChild> I like tonyyarusso's idea, but until that hour is over I feel all ops should be seen to publically support the banning op
[01:42] <apokryphos> s/unless/if/
[01:42] <LjL> PriceChild++
[01:42] <PriceChild> (well ompauls)
[01:43] <somerville32> apokryphos, The issue is more complex then that.
[01:43] <apokryphos> a lot of these ideas are good, and we said we'd be a team but I'm not really seeing that
[01:43] <LjL> support *if asked*, of course, you don't *have* to brag around and say "hey, look what a beautiful ban LjL did" ;-P
[01:43] <ompaul> somerville32, I think you don't understand the position you are putting an op in
[01:44] <ompaul> have they no right to support?
[01:44] <tonyyarusso> PriceChild: I'd rather not see them at all.  As in user walks in, says hey, one op says "We'll be happy to review in an hour's time, but not before then.  See you in a bit?"  And go back to idling.
[01:44] <tonyyarusso> LjL: haha
[01:44] <somerville32> ompaul, I'm not sure what context you're speaking in.
[01:44] <LjL> ompaul: sure they do, i'm just saying, for the sake of avoiding ambiguity, that if you don't like a ban, you're not *required* to lie and say you do. you can keep silent - for that one hour at least
[01:45] <somerville32> We're kind of offtopic
[01:45] <ompaul> somerville32, no we are on topic
[01:45] <apokryphos> we're not
[01:45] <somerville32> Since we waited more then 1 hour before addressing the issue
[01:45] <apokryphos> anyhow, I'm off to bed
[01:46] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, but do you think things should be handled immediately?
[01:46] <LjL> somerville32: perhaps we waited too long, this time
[01:46] <gnomefreak> member cloaks cant be klined?
[01:46] <ompaul> gnomefreak, but they can be lost
[01:46] <gnomefreak> well i mean like everyone else?
[01:46] <LjL> one day is probably too long, the involved ops will have gone away, and talking with *other* ops will only get them more angry ("talking behind their shoulders")
[01:46] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, In the vast majority of cases I believe that the ops should all pull together as a team... temporary bans are nothing...
[01:46] <LjL> so really, there's probably a timing that is best. i don't know if an hour is best, but probably a day's too long
[01:47] <gnomefreak> ompaul: that i found out by watching. but to join a channel with autokline i can just reconnect
[01:48] <tonyyarusso> PriceChild: I don't think we should do anything immediately.  In other words, any ban that is set stands for at least an hour.  What happens later can vary.  Most of the time I would expect an hour later it would be confirmed by another anyway, but I see little point in pinging everyone and getting them to say "I'll support that" in the meantime or whatever.  Am I making sense?
[01:48] <PriceChild> tsmithe would like to request his ban to be removed from -offtopic
[01:48] <somerville32> tsmithe was baned from -offtopic?
[01:48] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, yeah completely
[01:48] <tsmithe> for days
[01:48] <tsmithe> for the whole, venezuela thing
[01:49] <tonyyarusso> tsmithe: aaah.  Has it happened before.
[01:49] <tonyyarusso> ?
[01:49] <tsmithe> nope
[01:49] <tsmithe> well
[01:49] <tsmithe> it?
[01:49] <tonyyarusso> ompaul: I think I remember this.
[01:49] <tonyyarusso> tsmithe: Banning specifically.  You could mention any warnings also.
[01:49] <PriceChild> tonyyarusso, I don't mean everyone should appear... I'm just saying that whoever deals with the person entering -ops should say "I am not going to go back on this staff member's decision" etc. The ban stays in place for at least an hour (or more) and I stand by the ops decision.
[01:49] <tsmithe> tonyyarusso, i don't think i've been banned much from there before... and i don't recall much about anything?
[01:50] <tsmithe> gnomefreak, is that some kind of weird op privilege, banning me?
[01:50] <tonyyarusso> PriceChild: Right, that can be part of their explanation.  I think I see what you're getting at now.
[01:50] <tsmithe> :P
[01:50] <gnomefreak> i think daniel is the only devel i have banned and it wasnt even him
[01:50] <tsmithe> heh?
[01:50] <PriceChild> tsmithe, you're our bitch
[01:50] <tsmithe> PriceChild, i know! :(
[01:51] <tsmithe> yays!
[01:51] <gnomefreak> tsmithe: someone was using daniel's nick (dh...) spammingone night
[01:51] <tonyyarusso> tsmithe: reading
[01:51] <tsmithe> gnomefreak, ahh k
[01:51] <ompaul> tsmithe, you mention your trip again and you will be gone for a week
[01:51] <tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: I remember that!
[01:51] <tsmithe> ompaul, i won't; course not
[01:51] <somerville32> Why can't he mention his trip?
[01:52] <tsmithe> i think it counts as spammage
[01:52] <ompaul> somerville32, he spams
[01:52] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: He wants money for it
[01:52] <tsmithe> somerville32 knows that :P
[01:52] <somerville32> tsmithe: Spamming isn't nice :(
[01:52] <tsmithe> i don't
[01:52] <somerville32> tsmithe: Then why were you banned?
[01:52] <tsmithe> it's not like i go in; hit and run style
[01:52] <ompaul> somerville32, and tell me this - why don't you know this rather than ask us here - this is what we were saying all along
[01:52] <tsmithe> i'm not going to argue how it's not spam
[01:52] <tsmithe> you're the ops here, not me
[01:52] <tonyyarusso> tsmithe: Also, while we normally don't let behaviour in one channel influence decisions in another, I think PriceChild (?) said you did the same thing in the forums channel - behave there too please?
[01:53] <tsmithe> tonyyarusso, of course
[01:53] <ompaul> tsmithe, it is spam - very simply - I get to say that and understand that spammers go out of the channel with bans
[01:53] <somerville32> ompaul: I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you asking a question?
[01:53] <PriceChild> tsmithe, has learned his lesson about the spamming I've muted him enough in #ubuntuforums
[01:53] <somerville32> Can you qualify "this"?
[01:54] <PriceChild> and the -offtopic one
[01:54] <ompaul> somerville32, ehh no, I am being retorical, you could hit the bug bot and see what he is being removed for
[01:54] <PriceChild> he hasn't repeated in some time
[01:54] <tonyyarusso> tsmithe: One suggestion that imo would make it less spamlike would be if you happen to be discussing the trip, and someone seems interested, invite them to your #tsmithe-venezuela channel, and post the link to your blog there rather than in these channels.
[01:54] <somerville32> ompaul: It isn't working.
[01:54] <PriceChild> I would like to vouch for him.... but then again i'm not an op in -offtopic
[01:54] <tsmithe> tonyyarusso, good idea... that channel does sit a tad empty :P
[01:54] <tonyyarusso> PriceChild: Thanks.
[01:55] <ompaul> PriceChild, being banned tends to prevent it being repeated
[01:55] <PriceChild> ompaul, indeed :) Its up to you
[01:55] <tsmithe> ok... but you don't mind if i link to my blog not about the venezuela thing, right?
[01:55] <tsmithe> as in a post i've made on it
[01:55] <somerville32> ompaul: Capital punishment tends to stop repeaters too.
[01:55] <LjL> somerville32: tried lately? it seems to be back to normal now for me
[01:56] <somerville32> LjL: k
[01:56] <tonyyarusso> tsmithe: As long as it's not pointing to a page regarding donations I think I'd be fine
[01:56] <ompaul> somerville32, they get an appeal lasts years .. but does not happen 20 seconds after the judge says byeeeee
[01:56] <mc44> tsmithe: and is low in regularity
[01:56] <tsmithe> tonyyarusso, ok cool
[01:56] <somerville32> ompaul: True ;]
[01:56] <somerville32> Welp, bbiab
[01:56] <tsmithe> mc44, yes
[01:57] <tsmithe> i actually think i wasn't "regular"... it was kinda sporadic
[01:57] <Hobbsee> gnomefreak: well, they do, but they autoreconnect.  at least mine did
[01:57] <tsmithe> it was definitely often, though
[01:57] <gnomefreak> Hobbsee: ty i didnt know that ;)
[01:57] <tonyyarusso> tsmithe: All right - let's see how you do for a while, eh?  :)
[01:57] <tsmithe> of course
[01:58] <gnomefreak> tsmithe: if you post to the blog is fine <hint> have the donations part on a different page a link on you blog page but shhhhh i didnt tell you that :)
[01:58] <tsmithe> :)
[01:58] <gnomefreak> oh and dont overly post it
[01:58] <tsmithe> i actually didn't expect any donations
[01:58] <PriceChild> we're watching you tsmithe ;)
[01:58] <tsmithe> but i've made 30 :)
[01:58] <tsmithe> so i'm happy
[01:58] <gnomefreak> isnt that like 50 USD?
[01:59] <tsmithe> yeah i guess
[01:59] <tonyyarusso> Hi Mez
[01:59] <Mez> hi
[01:59] <tsmithe> gnomefreak, i don't know what that means though
[01:59] <Mez> I saw a few pings for me in here - sup ?
[01:59] <gnomefreak> usd == us dollars
[01:59] <tsmithe> i know
[01:59] <gnomefreak> oh
[01:59] <LjL> gnomefreak: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%C2%A330+in+dollars&btnG=Search
[01:59] <tsmithe> i just dunno how much that is
[01:59] <somerville32> Mez: People aren't happy with how you handled the incident last night.
[01:59] <tsmithe> a lot? a little?
[01:59] <LjL> wow, a dollar's twice a pound now? wow.
[02:00] <LjL> err i mean, the opposite
[02:00] <gnomefreak> about 60 dollars not bad
[02:00] <tonyyarusso> Mez: #1, a number of people weren't happy with your #asdfg redirect.  Other things also ensued.
[02:00] <ompaul> tsmithe, please head off back to the other place this is not your average chat room - but I think you have gathered that already
[02:00] <tsmithe> i have
[02:00] <somerville32> Mez: Not to mention how you apparently tried to exploit his system, etc. etc.
[02:00] <tsmithe> goodbye
[02:00] <ompaul> or lurk happy in the corner
[02:00] <LjL> oh Mez... hi. wait, actually i think that redirect of yours came up later, the heat started before anyone talked about that
[02:01] <tsmithe> ompaul, happy as always :) happier than before, of course, though ;)
[02:01] <Mez> tonyyarusso, - he didnt actually go in there- h e quit before I sent him that message
[02:01] <ompaul> clock even
[02:01] <Mez> somerville32, apparently tried to - I said i could have if I wanted to but didnt
[02:02] <somerville32> Mez: Your conduct was rather... despicable as an "representative" of the Op Team.
[02:02] <somerville32> Hawkwind resigned over it
[02:02] <Mez> somerville32, wtf?
[02:02] <ompaul> somerville32, that is emotive
[02:02] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: Could we not "" that?  We _are_ representatives.
[02:03] <somerville32> tonyyarusso, Every action we take represents the the IRC op team and Ubuntu at large.
[02:03] <mc44> somerville32: also your characterisation of Hawkwind's resignation is inaccurate
[02:03] <Hobbsee> Mez: read the logs.  somerville32's going on and on about hwo it's unacceptable, yet hasnt actually faced such a thing himself.  better take his comments with a grain of salt
[02:03] <ompaul> somerville32, your use of english and mine differ hugely but that was uncalled for
[02:03] <somerville32> Ok
[02:03] <somerville32> You're right
[02:03] <somerville32> I'm angry right now
[02:03] <somerville32> I'm going to walk away
[02:03] <gnomefreak> oops end "
[02:04] <Mez> Hawkwind resigned?
[02:04] <Hobbsee> yeah
[02:04] <tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: Agreed
[02:04] <Mez> anyone give me an estimated start time (in UTC)
[02:04] <ompaul> Mez, there were other issues afoot there
[02:04] <somerville32> Yes, there were.
[02:04] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: Chill for an hour then summarize points perhaps?
[02:04] <tonyyarusso> Mez: a sec
[02:04] <Hobbsee> Mez: just read from when you quit
[02:04] <gnomefreak> night
[02:05] <Hobbsee> er, went afk
[02:05] <Hobbsee> night gnomefreak
[02:05] <tonyyarusso> Mez: 20:00 UTC
[02:05] <Mez> oh
[02:05] <Mez> wait
[02:05] <Mez> so was i in here or not ?
[02:07] <tonyyarusso> Mez: yes?
[02:07] <Mez> ok I'm reading
[02:07] <Mez> the fake the DMCA thing wasnt me...
[02:07] <tonyyarusso> I have your last join at 16:43 UTC
[02:07] <Mez> And I saw it as a joke aswell
[02:08] <ompaul> @now utc
[02:08] <Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 20 2007, 01:08:56 - Next meeting: Xubuntu in 13 hours 51 minutes
[02:19] <Mez> who's around that knows a lil hhistory of the whole ops thing
[02:20] <Mez> I need to find out some of a story
[02:20] <tonyyarusso> Mez: You probably need to define "whole ops thing" for that question.
[02:20] <LjL> Mez, i completely missed that happened yesterday, and i know little of the malt guy - but i suppose you can fill that in... i was here during just about the whole discussion, however
[02:21] <Mez> I'm more on about an explanation of what happened to Amaranth
[02:21] <Mez> I dont know that, it was bought up in the convo I'm reading
[02:21] <Mez> feel free to poke me
[02:21] <Hobbsee> malt was decent in #ubuntu-offtopic usually, iirc
[02:21] <Hobbsee> may have been drunk
[02:22] <LjL> Mez: still i could have got much of it wrong. it started with whether you were right or not to call yourself a representative of the ubuntu irc operator team in that mail... and then it escalated sort of quickly
[02:22] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: I'll grep
[02:23] <LjL> uhm dunno about Amaranth, not anything recent anyway
[02:23] <tonyyarusso> LjL: means a while back
[02:24] <LjL> well, i don't believe i'm the best one to give an explanation of that
[02:25] <Mez> LjL, well what should I have called myself...
[02:25] <Mez> as an op, surely I am a representative
[02:25] <LjL> Mez, i agree
[02:26] <Mez> plus it had been discussed in IRC about 1 mneptok calling them
[02:26] <Mez> and 2) me emailing them
[02:26] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: I can confirm that first statement.
[02:26] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Up until yesterday
[02:26] <LjL> Mez, that's not really the issue, it's just how it started. anyway no use arguing with me about it, since i agree
[02:26] <Mez> when I rang them after he started join flooding the network, they asked if I was "from oo bun two"
[02:26] <LjL> the one thing i do disagree with (i haven't really read the logs, so maybe there are others, but i can't say) was that redirecting to klining channel business
[02:27] <LjL> while i can understand it, it was far from a good idea i'm afraid
[02:28] <Amaranth> ?
[02:29] <Amaranth> i missed something
[02:30] <somerville32> What happened to you for your misconduct is being used in comparison to Mez's misconduct and how things should be dealt with.
[02:30] <tonyyarusso> Amaranth: And most of us (?) don't know what it was.
[02:31] <Amaranth> You mean what did I do to get in such trouble?
[02:31] <tonyyarusso> yeah
[02:31] <somerville32> He was mouthy in a non-ubuntu channel
[02:31] <tonyyarusso> Whether it's a valid comparison or not I don't know.  Whether you want to explain is up to you.
[02:32] <Amaranth> somerville32: The insults were mutual. :)
[02:32] <Amaranth> But yeah
[02:32] <somerville32> It isn't a direct comparison
[02:32] <Mez> somerville32, seems to to me
[02:35] <Amaranth> Wow, what did I miss?
[02:39] <jenda> Mez: just FIY, #asdfg doesn't do anything.
[02:39] <Mez> jenda: lol
[02:39] <somerville32> jenda: That wasn't the channel he attempted to get him to join
[02:39] <Mez> somerville32, actually, it was
[02:39] <jenda> somerville32: incorrect - I'm quite sure it was.
[02:39] <somerville32> Maybe it was
[02:40] <somerville32> but I'm pretty sure that isn't what he reported here
[02:40] <jenda> While it may have been a kill channel some time in the past, it's certainly not now, nor has been for some time... besides, kill channels don't exist.
[02:40] <jenda> somerville32: check the logs, yes it is.
[02:41] <Amaranth> jenda: kill channels don't exist, eh? "ignore the man behind the curtain"? :)
[02:41] <jenda> When we're at war with Oceania, we've always been at war with Oceania.
[02:41] <Mez> jenda, the night club down the road from me ?
[02:42] <jenda> Mez: you lost me :)
[02:42] <Mez> Oceania = a night club down the road from me
[02:42] <somerville32> jenda: Sorry, you're right
[02:42] <Amaranth> So why exactly was someone being compared to me as if I'm the example of a horrible person? :)
[02:42] <somerville32> For some reason I thought it was #asdfdf
[02:42] <somerville32> or
[02:42] <somerville32> #asdfgfg
[02:42] <jenda> np :)
[02:42] <somerville32> or something like that
[02:42] <jenda> that was his nick.
[02:43] <Mez> Amaranth, cause I'm evil ;)
[02:43] <somerville32> Amaranth, No.
[02:45] <Amaranth> Mez: awesome, wanna join my secret club?
[02:45] <Amaranth> oops
[02:45] <Amaranth> everyone, press /clear
[02:45] <Mez> Amaranth, you mean #ubuntu-evil ? I've been idling in there for months
[02:45] <Amaranth> shh!
[02:46] <Amaranth> btw, did you see what i said about django and mod_python?
[02:46] <Mez> Amaranth, nope
[02:47] <Amaranth> Turns out I don't need mod_python because when you use django with mod_python you have to restart the server whenever you change the code
[02:47] <Amaranth> so i'm going the fastcgi route
[02:47] <Mez> Amaranth, ew
[02:47] <Amaranth> yeah
[02:47] <Mez> but Amaranth technically you can restart it - just make a subdomain and change somehting abut it
[02:48] <Mez> that restarts the server ;)
[02:48] <Amaranth> evil
[02:48] <Mez> well it's got to really
[02:50] <Amaranth> anyway...
[02:51] <Mez> fastcgi?
[02:51] <Amaranth> Please don't use what happened to me as some sort of precedent, I still think it was excessive.
[02:51] <Amaranth> Mez: what about it?
[02:51] <Mez> use PHP :P
[02:51] <Mez> it's easier
[02:51] <Amaranth> meh
[02:52] <Amaranth> the idea is supposed to be that you use their really kickass built-in testing server then when you finish the project you upload it to the production site
[02:53] <Amaranth> and you don't change anything in production until you've gotten all your changes done with the testing server and made sure it's all working
[02:53] <Mez> lol
[02:53] <Amaranth> it's meant for huge websites
[02:53] <Amaranth> i guess one of the sites the creators run got farked and he didn't even notice until the site admin asked him why they got 3 million extra hits in one day
[02:56] <Mez> lol
[02:57] <Mez> ARGH
[02:57] <Amaranth> oh, and one of the developers is a guy i knew on the sitepoint forums back when he was learning python :)
[02:57] <Mez> -offtopic looks like a spam bot attack
[02:57] <Mez> but it's just people with _'s iun their nich
[02:57] <Mez> it hurts my eyes
[03:06] <Mez> Seveas, can you poke me at some time you have a lil spare time to help me out
[03:40] <LjL> i'm leaving. if ubotwo is a nuisance, poke nalioth (or just ban)
[05:11] <Mez> ooh :D
[05:11] <Mez> fun
[05:12] <Mez> since when has bans.cgi been open to public?
[05:12] <DBO> for a bit
[05:13] <nalioth> since we had a feel-good pity party a while back
[05:13] <nalioth> Mez: you do.
[05:13] <nalioth> use your LP ID
[05:14] <Mez> nalioth, I'm apparently logged in anyways
[05:14] <Mez> Logged in as: Martin Meredith
[05:14] <nalioth> well, see? silly man
[05:14] <DBO> I used to date a gal named Meredith
[05:14] <Mez> DBO, wasnt me
[05:14] <DBO> I dont think you're a gal
[05:15] <Mez> good
[05:15] <Mez> a lot eoe people do
[05:15] <DBO> ...in IRC or real life?
[05:15] <Mez> both :P
[05:15] <DBO> walk around without pants for a couple days
[05:15] <DBO> that will clear it up
[05:16] <Mez> lol
[05:16] <Mez> i do amnyways
[05:16] <Mez> (at home)
[05:16] <Mez> though not currently :P
[05:17] <tonyyarusso> aaaaack
[05:17] <tonyyarusso> DBO: Don't tempt him
[05:17] <DBO> thank you tonyyarusso
[05:17] <DBO> I didnt mean to
[05:17] <DBO> I mean
[05:17] <DBO> he doesnt live near me
[05:17] <DBO> so if he does it in public
[05:17] <Mez> tonyyarusso, well- Jemma's arriving in like ..... 4 hours :D
[05:17] <DBO> hopefully it will merely make for good TV
[05:18] <Mez> DBO: be glad you didnt see some of the staff party antics
[05:18] <tonyyarusso> Jemma?
[05:18] <Mez> where I managed to ge my current gf (Jemma)
[05:18] <tonyyarusso> ah
[05:18] <DBO> I cant figure out if thats a male or female name
[05:18] <DBO> oh female
[05:19] <Mez> she finishes work in 3 hrs :D
[05:31] <DBO> Mez, you dont need to whack users for saying shit so much
[05:31] <DBO> especially when they arent using it in a particularly offensive manner
[05:31] <Mez> DBO I didnt whack, it was a friendly reminder
[05:32] <DBO> i know
[05:32] <tonyyarusso> Which channel are we talking about?
[05:32] <Mez> -ot
[05:32] <DBO> #ubuntu-offtopic
[05:32] <tonyyarusso> okay
[05:32] <tonyyarusso> #ubuntu could use the opposite advice, imo
[05:32] <DBO> a little more lax there goes a long way to keeping those with authority issues in line
[05:32] <tonyyarusso> true
[05:32] <DBO> i know its counter intuitive
[05:33] <Mez> this is sooo gonna crash anytime soon
[05:34] <Mez> somerville32, done blame ya
[05:35] <DBO> i try to talk less and less and just watch now days
[05:35] <DBO> its dangerous to be an op...
[05:35] <somerville32> Especially in that channel, lol
[05:35] <DBO> its a hate magnet
[05:37] <Mez> ubotwo broken?
[05:37] <tonyyarusso> I think I've managed to stay mostly unhated.    More likely clueless and needs to be informed.
[07:54] <somerville32> My face hurts :(
[07:55] <tonyyarusso> why?
[07:58] <somerville32> Oh you know, the usual reasons
[07:58] <tonyyarusso> running into doors again?
[08:15] <Mez>  DBO, you ok there
[08:16] <DBO> yes
[08:16] <DBO> just had some gtk issues
[08:16] <Mez> xchat ? :P
[08:17] <DBO> ...yes =P
[08:17] <DBO> but it was my fault
[08:17] <DBO> I had been playing with gtk to add transparency
[08:19] <Mez> play with qt it's more fun
[08:20] <DBO> and C++
[08:20] <DBO> ewww
[08:21] <Mez> er
[08:22] <Mez> just an FYI:
 dood, check out the videos on one of my new sites: http://www.sdillegalactivists.com
[08:22] <Mez> is what that kick was for
[08:23] <DBO> I prefer to kick forward them to ##windows
[08:24] <Mez> DBO lol
[08:25] <Hobbsee> hey all
[08:25] <Hobbsee> anything blown up yet?
[08:25] <DBO> Hobbsee, nothing major
[08:26] <Hobbsee> heya Mez :)
[08:26] <Mez> :)
[08:26] <Mez> I scRED HER AWAY
[08:26] <Mez> gah
[08:26] <tonyyarusso> Mez: did someone ask?
[08:27] <tonyyarusso> Mez: oh, nvm
[08:27] <tonyyarusso> Mez: I got the same guy in #ubuntu
[08:27] <Mez> tonyyarusso, ?
[08:28] <tonyyarusso> Mez: I didn't realize he went to offtopic too - I thought you were talking about my kick.
[08:28] <Mez> oh i didnt see that one :D
[08:28] <Mez> just saw -ot
[08:31] <Hobbsee> Mez: heh.  no you didnt
[08:32] <tonyyarusso> lol...I have my own host on my hilights from bans...
[08:33] <Mez> Hobbsee, didnt what ?
[08:34] <Hobbsee> Mez: scaring me away
[08:34] <Mez> ah
[08:35] <tonyyarusso> Anyone know perl?
[08:35] <Mez> tonyyarusso, yo
[08:35] <tonyyarusso> Mez: I may hit you up sometime when I delve into futzing with irssi scripts more.
[08:35] <Mez> kk
[08:36] <somerville32> Doesn't irssi support python scripting?
[08:36] <Mez> perl ftw
[08:36] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: Not yet, afaik.  I think it was/is a SoC project though.
[08:36] <somerville32> Most interesting.
[08:36] <somerville32> I should apply for a SoC
[08:37] <Mez> or I would
[08:41] <Hobbsee> a thought occurs.  what would happen if we undid the bans after 24 hours, which allows people to become sober again?
[08:41] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Hrm?  don't we already?
[08:41] <tonyyarusso> actually, I probably have some outstanding since the bantracker's been funny...
[08:41] <Hobbsee> in -ops?  not that i know of
[08:42] <tonyyarusso> oh, in -ops
[08:42] <tonyyarusso> Not very many here
[08:42] <tonyyarusso> Ubugtu: calc 68000 / 60 / 60
[08:42] <Ubugtu> 18.8888888889
[08:43] <tonyyarusso> The bulk of which are under that time limit.
[08:43] <tonyyarusso> Looks like all but one.
[08:44] <somerville32> Hmm.. apokryphos banned a Canadian :(
[08:45] <somerville32> And it looks like afterdeath will be banned until the end of time, lol
[08:45] <Mez> somerville32, so ?
[08:45] <Mez> unless he banned him for being canadian ?
[08:45] <somerville32> Mez: lol, I was joking. :P
[08:45] <Hobbsee> hehe
[08:45] <somerville32> @now atlantic
[08:45] <Ubugtu> Current time in Canada/Atlantic: January 20 2007, 03:46:00 - Next meeting: Xubuntu in 7 hours 13 minutes
[08:47] <somerville32> Hobbsee, How was the whole AU conference?
[08:47] <Hobbsee> somerville32: open day was good - i didnt go to the rest
[08:47] <tonyyarusso> yep, here's an overdue one
[08:47] <Mez> Hobbsee, you were at LCA
[08:48] <Mez> ?
[08:48] <tonyyarusso> I don't feel as much need to remove dee cee cee exploiters' bans for a while - thoughts?
[08:48] <Hobbsee> Mez: open day yeah
[08:48] <somerville32> tonyyarusso, They are usually bots.
[08:48] <Mez> you shoulda gone to the rest of LCA
[08:48] <Mez> and annoyed jono/keybuk
[08:48] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: true
[08:49] <somerville32> omgz, I got mentioned on Planet Ubuntu
[08:49] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: 'cept the one that sat there _lurking_ until I deopped, then did it.
[08:49] <somerville32> tonyyarusso, Yeah, some of just trolls, lol
[08:49] <somerville32> *are
[08:49] <tonyyarusso> meh, I'll get them later.
[08:49] <Mez> somerville32, what did you do
[08:50] <somerville32> "So yesterday while making some jokes towards Cody Sommerville and Martin Meredith on writing a program to fix it, they said..."
[08:50] <somerville32> He spelt my last name wrong though :(
[08:50] <Mez> ahg lol
[08:51] <tonyyarusso> I don't see this post...
[08:51] <Mez> http://blog.nixternal.com/2007.01.19/2-mice-are-not-better-than-1/
[08:52] <somerville32> I almost missed it myself
[08:52] <tonyyarusso> ah, that's why.
[08:52] <tonyyarusso> b/c I searched your name *right* :)
[08:52] <somerville32> lol
[08:52] <somerville32> Cheater
[08:53] <tonyyarusso> I _love_ the cartoons post
[08:54] <somerville32> Yeah, it is pretty funny :)
[08:54] <somerville32> Maybe I should start a Ubuntu blog
[08:55] <tonyyarusso> owwww
[08:55] <somerville32> Getting old?
[08:56] <tonyyarusso> yep - the ancient 20
[08:58] <somerville32> Know what I noticed?
[08:59] <tonyyarusso> what?
[08:59] <somerville32> Scott's interview on Behind Ubuntu is not linked from the list on the right or on the interview page
[09:00] <Mez> hjmm my FF keeps crashing
[09:01] <DBO> Mez, does it crash when loading the file chooser dialog?
[09:01] <Mez> DBO nope when hitting back
[09:02] <DBO> fun
[09:02] <somerville32> Hobbsee, Can I ask you a question?
[09:02] <Hobbsee> somerville32: sure
[09:03] <tonyyarusso> (What is the airspeed velocity of a flying swallow?)
[09:03] <somerville32> Hobbsee, Who do you think is the hottest Ubuntu core-dev?
[09:03] <tonyyarusso> . . . .
[09:03] <tonyyarusso> Did that just happen?
[09:04] <somerville32> It seemed like a good question at the time :/
[09:04] <Hobbsee> uh.....
[09:04] <Mez> hmm
[09:04] <Hobbsee> i'm told to say keybuk.
[09:04] <Mez> Easter eggs
[09:04] <Mez> godamn
[09:05] <Mez> Hobbsee, by who ?
[09:05] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: You're "told to"?  By?
[09:05] <Hobbsee> by kgoetz
[09:05] <Mez> Hobbsee, have you been playing with keybuk ?
[09:05] <Mez> you do know his bf will get annoyed
[09:05] <Hobbsee> Mez: no way!
[09:06] <Mez> though I agree....
[09:06] <Mez> Keybuk is quite hot ;)
[09:06] <somerville32> Yeah, I have to agree too
[09:06] <Mez> so is infinity
[09:06] <Mez> but this is going back to UBZ :P
[09:06] <somerville32> Meh
[09:06] <Mez> (though I've seen scott more recently)
[09:07] <Mez> oh my god
[09:07] <somerville32> Omgz, whatz!?
[09:07] <Mez> I forgot I was an admin at the Easter Egg Archive
[09:08] <somerville32> Cool :)
[09:08] <somerville32> tonyyarusso, Who do you think is the hottest core-dev?
[09:10] <somerville32> Mez: Do you know Scott personally?
[09:10] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: I've never met any of them.  The only people I've seen are Myles Braithwaite, Andrew Hunter, the guy who runs linuxcaffe, Seneca Cunningham, and SpacePuppy.
[09:10] <Mez> somerville32, I've met him a few times at different things, he's in the same LUG of me
[09:10] <somerville32> Mez: Does he refer to himself as "smee"?
 you do know his bf will get annoyed <-- ??
[09:11] <Mez> LMAO
[09:11] <Mez> Jucato, Keybuk = homosexual
[09:11] <Jucato> oh...
[09:11] <somerville32> duh
[09:11] <Mez> and is in a long term relationship atm I believe
[09:11] <somerville32> How long?
[09:12] <Mez> about a year now I think
[09:12] <Mez> But that I dont know
[09:12] <Mez> lol
[09:12] <Mez> I havent seen him in a while
[09:12] <Mez> and I dont really track his love life to be honest
[09:12] <somerville32> lol
[09:12] <Mez> his bf look scared out of his wits at LRL though
[09:12] <tonyyarusso> LRL?
[09:12] <somerville32> Do you know who the guy on the right is? http://www.netsplit.com/events/2002/birmingham-pride/birmingham-pride-008.jpg
[09:13] <somerville32> Here is another picture if needed: http://www.netsplit.com/events/2002/birmingham-pride/birmingham-pride-010.jpg
[09:13] <Mez> looks familiat
[09:14] <Mez> I know who the guy on the far left in the second picture is
[09:14] <Hobbsee> somerville32: i saw scott at teh open day, didnt say hello
[09:14] <somerville32> Mez: The guy with a bottle in his mouth?
[09:15] <Mez> further left
[09:15] <somerville32> The guy looking shifty, leaning against the wall?
[09:16] <Mez> yup
[09:16] <Mez> old housemate of mine
[09:16] <Mez> lol
[09:16] <somerville32> lol
[09:16] <Mez> popping to see if showps are open
[09:16] <somerville32> Small world
[09:16] <Mez> http://www.netsplit.com/events/2005/lugradio-live/lugradio-live-002.jpg
[09:16] <Mez> I was just out of frame in that shot
[09:16] <Mez> somerville32, I live in the same city as Scott
[09:17] <somerville32> Most interesting
[09:18] <somerville32> Hobbsee, What was he doing?
[09:18] <Hobbsee> somerville32: talking to jono
[09:19] <somerville32> I'm so going to the next UDS - even if I have to swim.
[09:19] <Hobbsee> why, what were you hoping for, somerville32?
[09:19] <Hobbsee> note to self:  get a passport
[09:19] <somerville32> Hobbsee, Nothing. I'm just amazed by this whole existence.
[09:19] <tonyyarusso> I'd like to go to a UDS, but a) have no way to pay for it, and b) have no idea what I'd do there other than look around in a mix of wonderment and confusion
[09:20] <Hobbsee> somerville32: how so?
[09:20] <somerville32> Hobbsee, It is so... surreal.
[09:20] <tonyyarusso> So, if anyone wants to pay my ticket and hold my hand, I'm in!
[09:20] <somerville32> I'm going to try for sponsorship this UDS or the next one.
[09:21] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: i'm sure the people arent *that* scary
[09:21] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: No no, not the people - the topics.
[09:21] <tonyyarusso> I don't know much about that really hard-core low-level stuff.
[09:21] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: more crack on the forums, i woudlnt worry
[09:21] <tonyyarusso> hehe
[09:21] <tonyyarusso> 'k, fine.  Just a) then.
[09:21] <tonyyarusso> Oh, and time, depending when it is.
[09:21] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: you mean you havent seen http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4611592451.html ?
[09:22] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: I did - and the same day had a user in #ubuntu with problems b/c of it :)
[09:22] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: why am i not surprised...
[09:23] <Mez> Hobbsee, I hope to see you at  a UDS
[09:23] <Mez> or at least LUGRadio Live
[09:24] <tonyyarusso> How does sponsoring people for UDS work anyway?
[09:24] <somerville32> Mez: Do you hope to see... me?
[09:24] <somerville32> tonyyarusso, You put your name on the wiki page and cross your fingers?
[09:24] <Hobbsee> Mez: UDS, more likely
[09:24] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: oh dear
[09:24] <Mez> somerville32, maybe not :P I only met you today and you a) bitched at me b) quized me about scott
[09:24] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: you have to do the UDS gauntlet
[09:24] <tonyyarusso> Then I'd need, like, a reason.
[09:25] <tonyyarusso> a core-dev jousts you?
[09:25] <Hobbsee> yup
[09:25] <somerville32> Mez: But I love you now! We're like... best friends!
[09:25] <Hobbsee> oookay?
[09:25] <Mez> tonyyarusso, it's not that bad... back at UBZ - I got sponsored to go - it was an amazing experience
[09:25] <Mez> I was just getting into it
[09:25] <Mez> It was just after I'd become a MOTU
[09:25] <tonyyarusso> Mez: link me to how it works?
[09:25] <tonyyarusso> ah
[09:26] <Mez> thttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperSummitMountainView/Sponsorship
[09:27] <somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperSummitMountainView/Sponsorship
[09:27] <Mez> tonyyarusso, I didnt  know about it
[09:27] <Mez> I'd been away for a weekj
[09:27] <tonyyarusso> Mez: cool.  So if you're accepted, is it everything included, or?
[09:27] <Mez> I got back and came on IRC,
[09:28] <Mez> tonyyarusso, for me, it was flights, accom, brakfast lunch, plus re-imbursement of up to $50CAD/day for evening meal
[09:28] <tonyyarusso> wow
[09:29] <Mez> I think I spent a total of $50 on evening meals in the week
[09:29] <Mez> I spent a LOT in the bar though
[09:29] <Mez> though I won all that and more back when jblack and I went to the casino
[09:30] <Mez> grr
[09:30] <somerville32> Mez: Why Canadian dollars?
[09:30] <Hobbsee> Mez: wow, really?
[09:30] <Mez> somerville32, It was in canada
[09:30] <Mez> Hobbsee, which bit ?
[09:30] <somerville32> Oh, right right
[09:30] <Hobbsee> [19:28]  <Mez> tonyyarusso, for me, it was flights, accom, brakfast lunch, plus re-imbursement of up to $50CAD/day for evening meal
[09:30] <Hobbsee> Mez: do you really get all that?
[09:30] <Mez> I think it was $50 a day
[09:30] <Mez> the rest of it definately
[09:30] <Mez> lemme check
[09:31] <Hobbsee> as in, the reimbursement/dinner stuff
[09:31] <Mez> breakfast and dinner was in the hotel restaurant
[09:31] <Hobbsee> yep
[09:31] <tonyyarusso> So, the things I do (currently lots of IRC, marketing/UWN, bits and pieces of wiki, and theoretically -classroom) - are those UDS-relevant, or is it pretty much coding?
[09:31] <Hobbsee> so there's not that much cost while you're over there?
[09:31] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: well, it's spec stuff
[09:31] <Hobbsee> iirc
[09:31] <tonyyarusso> While I'm mentioning classroom, hit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/Ideas for me please and add some so I can draw up a 2007 schedule.
[09:32] <Mez> Hobbsee, all costs pretty much covered except for alcohol
[09:32] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: I wrote a spec in full, and have 3 or 4 more that are basic but need a drafting, but the full one was rejected for Mountain View :(
[09:32] <Hobbsee> heh.  well i wont be having any/much of that
[09:32] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: :( what was it?
[09:33] <Mez> Hobbsee, why not ?
[09:33] <Mez> Serisouly though
[09:33] <Hobbsee> Mez: not into drinking much.  and i have to drive most of the time
[09:33] <Mez> It wa kkinda scary when I realised after I'd spent half my time playing cards with the ex DPL
[09:33] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~tonyyarusso/+specs, the gaim one.
[09:33] <Hobbsee> s/text/taste/
[09:33] <Mez> Hobbsee, alcopops :D
[09:34] <Mez> and there was something gorgeous that Jane Weidemann smuggled into the bar while playing Mao
[09:34] <Hobbsee> heh
[09:34] <Hobbsee> yay mao!!!
[09:34] <tonyyarusso> mao is weird...
[09:35] <Mez> tonyyarusso, mao rocks!
[09:35] <Mez> but i didnt realise Iain was the Ex DPL :P
[09:35] <Mez> lol
[09:35] <tonyyarusso> It's okay, dunno that I'd get that excited.
[09:35] <tonyyarusso> Iain?
[09:35] <Mez> iwj
[09:36] <Mez> sorry - Ian :D
[09:36] <Mez> Yeah it was freaky being away for a wekk, coming on IRC and having Mark say "Mez: See you in Montral!
[09:36] <Mez> lol
[09:36] <tonyyarusso> haha
[09:37] <Mez> that was before i got
[09:37] <Mez> http://rafb.net/p/a9SgF796.html
[09:37] <Mez> it's cool though
[09:38] <Mez> tis where I met ajmitch :D
[09:38] <Mez> (and lent him money when his bag got stolen)
[09:38] <Mez> first thing I did though
[09:38] <Mez> not knowing anyone, trying to find a place to sit
[09:38] <tonyyarusso> Mez: I love the C++ hilighting
[09:38] <Mez> sat down at a space that looked like it was free
[09:39] <Mez> not realising it was the table with mdz, elmo etc etc
[09:39] <Mez> lmao :D
[09:39] <Mez> I got some strange looks
[09:39] <tonyyarusso> Mark's reserved seat?
[09:39] <Mez> tonyyarusso, quite possibly
[09:39] <tonyyarusso> lol
[09:39] <tonyyarusso> I'd totally do something like that
[09:39] <somerville32> lol
[09:39] <somerville32> Thats amazing.
[09:39] <somerville32> Mez: You should write a book.
[09:39] <Mez> tonyyarusso, that was the second day :D
[09:40] <Mez> I'd arrived late cause I forgot my passport :P
[09:40] <Mez> lucky BA :D
[09:40] <Hobbsee> Mez: haha
[09:40] <tonyyarusso> I think I might faint if I sat down at that table and then they all introduced themselves at once though ;)
[09:40] <Mez> lucky BA saved my ass on that one *:D
[09:40] <Mez> tonyyarusso, they did all introduce themselcves
[09:40] <Mez> it was like "and you are"
[09:40] <Mez> "oh, I'm mez"
[09:40] <tonyyarusso> hehe
[09:40] <tonyyarusso> "who?"
[09:40] <Mez> "ell, I'm matt, mdz, this is James, elmo"
[09:40] <Mez> s/ell/well
[09:40] <Hobbsee> hehe
[09:41] <Hobbsee> "oops, bye now!"
[09:41] <Mez> tonyyarusso, at that time backports were just starting so I was in contact with them a lot
[09:41] <tonyyarusso> ah, ok
[09:41] <tonyyarusso> still
[09:41] <Mez> Hobbsee, actually - I did stay a lil - then found another table
[09:41] <tonyyarusso> That must have been priceless
[09:41] <Hobbsee> hehe
[09:41] <Mez> and then met \sh and siretart
[09:41] <Mez> tonyyarusso, it was :D
[09:41] <Mez> if only I hadnt forgot my passport
[09:41] <somerville32> tonyyarusso, Classroom/Ideas updated.
[09:41] <Mez> I woulda been there a day earlier and met people
[09:42] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: Yay
[09:42] <Mez> they put me in a room with a Gnome Developer too :D
[09:42] <Mez> that was a fun argument on the first night
[09:42] <Mez> ewell, more of an "urgh, you use KDE? urgh, you use gnome?"
[09:43] <Mez> and somerville32 haha - I am in the process of writing a book
[09:43] <somerville32> Mez: About?
[09:43] <tonyyarusso> somerville32: Some of those are similar to OpenWeek - We'll put those off to add some space (and maybe even the next one!), and take the non-dups.  Looks good
[09:43] <Mez> Computer Security - most aspects (thiugh linux based)
[09:44] <somerville32> Most interesting
[09:44] <Mez> tonyyarusso, did we ever get transcripts for the GPG session ?
[09:44] <tonyyarusso> Who is Brandon Sussman?
[09:44] <tonyyarusso> Mez: Yes!
[09:44] <tonyyarusso> It's awesome!
[09:44] <tonyyarusso> And only took me like three weeks....
[09:44] <Mez> lol
[09:45] <tonyyarusso> Mez: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts#head-b787da88ea1f9d431c1649d8cfaac71824eb4563
[09:45] <Mez> tonyyarusso, you did that session ?
[09:46] <Mez> i forgot that :D
[09:46] <tonyyarusso> Mez: Yeah - don't you remember?
[09:46] <Mez> it was a while back
[09:47] <tonyyarusso> That was the one where our scheduled instructor was a no-show, so nalioth asked me to do it, on like three hours notice :P
[09:48] <somerville32> http://flickr.com/photos/41128780@N00/296374591/ <-- Amazing.
[09:48] <Mez> tonyyarusso, lol :D lucky i was there to jelp too :D
[09:48] <Mez> lol
[09:48] <Mez> somerville32, Macslow is an uber dude
[09:48] <Mez> great conversationalist :D
[09:49] <tonyyarusso> Much love, Mom ?  nice
[09:50] <somerville32> What is Leslie's irc nick?
 Much love, Mom ?  nice ?????
[09:50] <Mez> oh
[09:51] <Mez> lol
[09:51] <Mez> somerville32, Leslie ?
[09:51] <somerville32> Let me find a photo... http://flickr.com/photos/sfllaw/296256275/
[09:52] <somerville32> http://flickr.com/photos/sfllaw/293489921/
[09:52] <Mez> hahaha
[09:54] <Mez> Google Leslie ?
[09:56] <tonyyarusso> http://digg.com/hardware/Microsoft_I_m_going_to_send_you_the_biggest_damn_box_you_ve_ever_seen anyone?
[09:57] <Mez> lol
[09:58] <Mez> somerville32, i know her IRC nick
[09:58] <Mez> but i'm keeping it to myself
[09:58] <Mez> :D
[09:59] <somerville32> Wait a sec...
[09:59] <somerville32> He is asking for donations to buy one big-ass box to send his xbox in?
[10:00] <tonyyarusso> yep
[10:01] <somerville32> Read the log
[10:02] <somerville32> He was just trying to get something out of the situation
[10:02] <tonyyarusso> Yeah, he's a bit of a moron, but I still find the picture of a shipping container showing up in Redmond hilarious.
[10:03] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: You never commented on my spec(s) :(
[10:06] <tonyyarusso> nooooooooo
[10:06] <tonyyarusso> Now I'll never know
[10:08] <somerville32> :(
[10:08] <Mez> ama
[10:09] <Mez> grr
[10:09] <somerville32> http://www.ubuntu.com/news/CanonicalInLinuxMagsTop20
[10:09] <somerville32> ""2007 is an important year us..."
[10:10] <tonyyarusso> uh oh
[10:10] <tonyyarusso> copyedit!
[10:13] <somerville32> http://suicidegirls.com/members/Clarcius/ <-- Guy or girl?
[10:13] <Mez> they're all girls
[10:14] <Mez> oh
[10:14] <Mez> member
[10:14] <Mez> guy
[10:14] <Mez> http://suicidegirls.com/members/mez
[10:14] <Mez> 3 of my exes are on there
[10:15] <somerville32> http://jasmine.19inch.net/~jr/away/2006-11-11-uds/100_0753.JPG <-- Interesting picture of dholbach
[10:16] <Mez> thats Daniel for ya
[10:16] <somerville32> We all know what he is looking at too
[10:16] <Mez> somerville32, you;re giving me a headache
[10:18] <somerville32> Oh?
[10:21] <somerville32> Well... I suppose thats rather unfortunate : (
[10:22] <somerville32> Anyhow, It is 5:30 now and I need to go to work into work at 9
[10:23] <somerville32> Followed by, what I'm sure will be an interesting Xubuntu meeting
[10:25] <somerville32> #xubuntu [05:23]  <Tree> im stalking stork
[10:25] <somerville32> 0_o
[11:30] <apokryphos> Mez: ah, you're English? You should join us in #ubuntu-uk ;-)
[11:30] <apokryphos> why does nalioth keep disappearing!
[11:33] <Mez> apokryphos, when did you find that out ?
[11:33] <apokryphos> logs, a minute ago
[11:33] <Mez> lol
[11:33] <Mez> apokryphos, I take it you are too ?
[11:33] <Mez> I hope I'll be seeing you two at LRL in may ?
[11:33] <Mez> or even guadec?
[11:33] <apokryphos> Greek, but I've lived in London for 12 years now
[11:34] <apokryphos> dunno
[11:34] <apokryphos> going to FOSDEM though :D
[11:34] <Mez> LRL rocks ass though
[11:34] <Mez> apokryphos, next time i'm in london - up for a meet/drink/keysigning?
[11:35] <Mez> PriceChild, where in the UK?
[11:35] <apokryphos> sure
[11:35] <PriceChild> York
[11:36] <apokryphos> ah, York is quite nice
[11:36] <apokryphos> nearly went to University there
[11:36] <PriceChild> :)
[11:36] <apokryphos> cool, what you studying?
[11:36] <PriceChild> Maths
[11:36] <PriceChild> although I'm having huge second thoughts about switching to Maths & CompSci
[11:36] <PriceChild> where're you Mez ?
[11:37] <Mez> Brum
[11:37] <PriceChild> Birmingham?
[11:37] <Mez> yup
[11:37] <apokryphos> nice, me too; but doing joint honours -- Maths and Phil
[11:37] <Mez> PriceChild, when you';re not at uni
[11:37] <Mez> or is that where york is ?
[11:37] <apokryphos> York is quite far north
[11:38] <PriceChild> York is in yorkshire :)
[11:38] <Mez> PriceChild, so outside wolves when you're at home not uni ?
[11:38] <PriceChild> Mez, http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=york&ie=UTF8&z=7&ll=53.389881,-0.032959&spn=2.673364,11.074219&om=1&iwloc=addr
[11:38] <PriceChild> Mez, indeedy
[11:38] <Mez> PriceChild, you a member of WolvesLUG then ?
[11:39] <PriceChild> No
[11:39] <PriceChild> I didn't get into Linux till just over a year ago when I boarded in shropshire
[11:39] <PriceChild> used to board 5 days a week away from home
[11:39] <Mez> PriceChild, doesnt mean you cant be part :D
[11:39] <PriceChild> So only spent like 10 weeks at home before I went to york
[11:39] <PriceChild> hehe yeah
[11:39] <Mez> apokryphos, I've bene to ONE lug meeting
[11:40] <PriceChild> I've been to 2 York Lug's
[11:40] <apokryphos> how was it?
[11:40] <Mez> but lugs are mainly mailing lists
[11:40] <apokryphos> I see
[11:40] <Mez> apokryphos, It was keybuk doing a talk
[11:40] <PriceChild> york do things quite often I was surprised
[11:40] <tonyyarusso> I want all of my pages to look like http://yarusso.no-ip.org/cesa/template.html, just adding content in the box.  Can I import the table like I did some of the CSS, so they don't have to download that all the time?
[11:41] <Mez> apokryphos, and jdub
[11:41] <apokryphos> I might be staying in brussels with the warwick LUG guys, though, but that's because I know one of the guys through IRC
[11:41] <Mez> tonyyarusso, not really
[11:41] <tonyyarusso> Mez: dang
[11:41] <Mez> apokryphos, come to SBrum for a lug meeting
[11:42] <PriceChild> SBrum?
[11:42] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: sure, use php
[11:42] <Mez> PriceChild, south birmingham
[11:42] <tonyyarusso> apokryphos: And now you've exceeded my skills :)
[11:42] <Mez> apokryphos, but that doesnt cache it client side :P
[11:42] <Mez> tonyyarusso, <?php include("file"); ?>
[11:42] <apokryphos> oh, caching
[11:43] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: it's very easy. And if you use php you can have your whole site in one page
[11:43] <tonyyarusso> If I _knew_ php.
[11:43] <tonyyarusso> I'm not going to learn it in a weekend.
[11:43] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: I don't know php, too :P
[11:43] <Mez> tonyyarusso, <?php include("file"); ?>
[11:43] <apokryphos> you don't have to know it
[11:43] <Mez> rest of it can be html
[11:43] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: I can send you the index.php from my site, if you like, so you can see how it works
[11:43] <tonyyarusso> apokryphos: sure
[11:43] <tonyyarusso> I'll think about it
[11:44] <Mez> lmao
[11:44] <Mez> the lug meeting i went to
[11:44] <apokryphos> hehe
[11:44] <Mez> # Thursday 19th August 2004 Jeff Waugh/Scott James Remnant on Planet and Canonical software
[11:44] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: http://francis.giannaros.org -- msg me your addy so I can send you the file?
[11:44] <tonyyarusso> apokryphos: This nick @ ubuntu works fine
[11:44] <Mez> hmm
[11:45] <apokryphos> why?
[11:45] <Mez> cause it only gets spam
[11:46] <apokryphos> tonyyarusso: ok, sent
[11:46] <tonyyarusso> cool
[11:48] <apokryphos> as you can see, there's only about 4 lines of php
[11:49] <PriceChild> hmm ubotu having fun again...
[11:52] <Mez> btw - if you ever stummble across a spam comment on php.net
[11:52] <Mez> poke me and i'll delete
[11:53] <Mez> tonyyarusso, http://www.php.net/manual/en/tutorial.firstpage.php
[11:53] <tonyyarusso> k
[11:54] <apokryphos> PriceChild: BerylBot?
[11:54] <PriceChild> apokryphos, hehe yeah :P
[11:54] <PriceChild> iXce set me the challenge
[11:54] <apokryphos> I noticed you got the bugtracker working nicely at least, which I just couldn't get to work
[11:55] <PriceChild> I've got all of ubotu working i think... Its just a really simple thing that needs to be done... I need to create a blank database :P
[11:55] <tonyyarusso> Wow.  The ubotu server isn't just slow, it's dead and decomposing.
[11:55] <PriceChild> and then I can start stripping out the code we don't need
[11:55] <PriceChild> do you think someone's on the other end tinkering? tonyyarusso
[11:55] <tonyyarusso> PriceChild: Not a clue
[11:55] <apokryphos> probably not
[11:55] <PriceChild> :)
[11:56] <apokryphos> just major lag, which causes a lot of problems it seems
[11:56] <tonyyarusso> grr - Mr. K has a permissions error on the Lart database!
[11:56] <Mez> Mr . K ?
[11:56] <PriceChild> Mez, there's only one ;)
[11:57] <Mez> oh
[11:57] <Mez> Seveas
[11:57] <PriceChild> :)
[11:57] <apokryphos> !test
[11:57] <Mez> I was looking for a nick beginning with K :P
[11:58] <ubotu> Failed.
[11:58] <Mez> !test
[11:58] <ubotu> Failed.
[11:58] <apokryphos> !info amarok-xine
[11:58] <ubotu> amarok-xine: xine engine for the amaroK audio player. In component main, is optional. Version 2:1.4.3-0ubuntu10 (edgy), package size 50 kB, installed size 188 kB
[11:58] <apokryphos> hm, seems to be working now
[11:59] <apokryphos> Mez: could you unban ubotu in k-devel?
[11:59] <PriceChild> How can I create a blank pysqlite database to use with ubotu's code... :s
[11:59] <Mez> apokryphos, done
[12:00] <Mez> smoeone wake me up in a n hour and a hlaf?
[12:01] <apokryphos> use amarok's alarm ;-)
[12:01] <apokryphos> ok, I've +q ubotwo almost everywhere now
[12:01] <PriceChild> amarok's got an alarm? :O
[12:01] <apokryphos> not a ban, just in case ubotu starts playing up again
[12:02] <PriceChild> apokryphos, -offtopic ?
[12:02] <apokryphos> thanks, done
[12:02] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: Could you look into why http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/Lart.flat.db gives a 403 forbidden?
[12:03] <Mez> #ubuntu ?
[12:03] <Mez> ah already done
[12:08] <Mez> test in channels other than here tonyyarusso
[12:08] <Mez> other than ubuntu channels *
[12:08] <tonyyarusso> Mez: fair 'nough
[12:08] <PriceChild> works everywhere else
[12:09] <Mez> /cs mode +n :P
[12:09] <Mez> chanserv.py rocks
[12:09] <Mez> though it needs a little playing with
[12:09] <Mez> for example
[12:09] <Mez> kick ops you, kicks them
[12:09] <Mez> it doesnt need to op you
[12:10] <apokryphos> huh?
[12:10] <tonyyarusso> what?
[12:10] <apokryphos> Mez: and why are you using xchat? ;-)
[12:10] <Mez> apokryphos, what should i be using /
[12:10] <apokryphos> I don't think konversation is great because of lack of raw-event scripting
[12:11] <apokryphos> but kvirc is good and completely customisable
[12:11] <apokryphos> and quasi-integrates with kde
[12:11] <Mez> Incvluding on windows
[12:11] <apokryphos> criminal
[12:12] <apokryphos> http://francis.giannaros.org/screenshots/kvirc-konversationcolours.jpg -- kvirc with konversation colours 8)
[12:15] <Mez>  http://tiber.tauware.de/~mez/xchat.jpg
[12:15] <apokryphos> now that's an xchat looking like kvirc :P
[12:15] <Mez> LOADSA CHANNELS!
[12:16] <apokryphos> indeed
[12:16] <Mez> 32 chans on this network
[12:17] <apokryphos> though they're not auto-join
[12:17] <Mez> apokryphos, 33 in your whois
[12:17] <apokryphos> (all of them, that is)
[12:17] <Amaranth> http://www.realistanew.com/random/xchat-gnome.png
[12:17] <Mez> apokryphos, I'm only in my auto-join now
[12:17] <apokryphos> Mez: a few are +s
[12:17] <apokryphos> but not 5; hm
[12:19] <Amaranth> -ChanServ- You do not have channel operator access to [#freedesktop-cabal]
[12:19] <Amaranth> -ChanServ- [#freedesktop-cabal]  THERE IS NO CABAL
[12:19] <Amaranth> --- #freedesktop-cabal :That channel doesn't exist
[12:19] <Amaranth> *giggle*
[12:19] <apokryphos> heh
[12:19] <Amaranth> it existed a week ago, i couldn't get in
[12:19] <Amaranth> i only knew about it because someone messed up changing windows in irssi and said the name :)
[12:21] <Mez> 39 if i jiin the thers I'm intereted in
[12:21] <Mez> more possibly if I join others
[12:21] <Mez> * [Mez]  #xubuntu #xchat #kubuntu-offtopic #edubuntu #konversation #ruby #beryl-dev #ubuntu+1 #ubuntuforums #beryl #gentoo-devel #ubuntu-classroom #python #web #katapult-bot #ubuntu-uk #postfix #ubuntu-offtopic #gstreamer #jokosher #courier #supybot #procmail #tapthru #debian-offtopic +#ubuntu-ops #kde-devel #lugradio #gnupg +#freenode-social #cia #amarok ##debian-mentors #debian-kde #debian-devel #bzr #ubuntu-burning #katapult
[12:22] <Mez> 40 - I forgot motu-classroom
[12:22] <Mez> which no longer exists
[12:27] <Mez> BRB
[12:31] <Mez> oonly thing with that many channels in xxchat
[12:31] <Mez> is that my senq is huge when I start up xchat
[12:32] <Mez> lag: 5.2 secs
[12:33] <jenda> and that you generate a Gig of logs in a few months.
[12:33] <Mez> lol
[12:34] <Mez> 87M	/home/mez/.xchat2/xchatlogs/
[12:34] <Mez> not that bad
[12:35] <Mez> 70k	/home/mez/.gaim/logs/msn/nothingissimple<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:35] <Mez> 74k	/home/mez/.gaim/logs/msn/nothingissimple<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:35] <Mez> 193k	/home/mez/.gaim/logs/msn/nothingissimple<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:35] <Mez> 242k	/home/mez/.gaim/logs/msn/nothingissimple<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:35] <Mez> 230k	/home/mez/.gaim/logs/msn/nothingissimple<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:35] <Mez> 1.4M	/home/mez/.gaim/logs/msn/nothingissimple<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:35] <Amaranth> whoops :P
[12:35] <tonyyarusso> what the...
[12:38] <Mez> sorry bout that
[12:38] <Mez> I forgot the -s
[12:38] <Mez> 6.6M	/home/mez/.gaim/logs
[12:38] <Mez> how many spam lines got throuhg ?
[12:39] <tonyyarusso> Mez: half dozen
[12:39] <Mez> ah kk
[12:39] <Mez> apologies
[01:00] <Mez> someone just logged into my MSN account
[01:00] <mc44> im in ur msn sendin ur messages
[01:01] <Mez> mc44, really ?
[01:01] <Mez> weird
[01:01] <mc44> well, no
[01:03] <tonyyarusso> Mez: Odd.  You didn't paste a password or anything.
[01:04] <Mez> tonyyarusso, I know i didnt
[01:04] <Mez> but I posted my private address at least
[01:04] <tonyyarusso> yeah
[01:05] <Mez> lmao
[01:05] <Mez> I just realised...
[01:05] <Mez> people havent ever ever bitched at me for idling in #gentoo-dev
[01:05] <Mez> but I get bitched at for being in #debian-devel all the time
[01:08] <tonyyarusso> sleepy time
[01:36] <PriceChild> can we have a mute on ubotwo` in #ubuntu pleasE?
[01:38] <PriceChild> anyone?
[01:50] <Mez> done
[01:51] <Mez> thought obotwu was muted anyways
[02:20] <Mez> hmm
[02:21] <Mez> cool thought for a plugin for XChat
[02:21] <Mez> paste more than X lines - it sends it to rafb.net
[02:21] <Mez> (well, a pastebin)
[02:23] <ubotu> In #ubuntu, cidx said: ubotu: Thats is dosent work :S
[02:24] <PriceChild> !bot > cidx
[02:29] <ompaul> Mez, that would be useful until you are somewhere that allows it and people go do it in the channel dude :)
[02:29] <Mez> ompaul, so? always good for a pastebun
[02:30] <ompaul> well if we make it it works with paste.ubuntulinux.nl
[02:30] <ompaul> :)
[02:31] <Mez> ompaul, http://www.ubuntulinux.nl/files/pastebin
[02:31] <Mez> which noi longer exists
[02:32] <ompaul> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/
[02:32] <Mez> yes the above was a pastebin command line script
[02:34] <Mez> http://www.stgraber.org/download/pastebin.py
[02:34] <Mez> theres one though
[03:28] <Jucato> um... both ubotu and ubotwo are in #kubuntu... both are not working... is it because they're both there?
[03:33] <LjL> is ubotu alright now?
[03:33] <Jucato> apparently not
[03:34] <LjL> Jucato: how so?
[03:34] <Jucato> it won't respond to queries... or maybe there's a conflict between the 2 bots
[03:34] <PriceChild> I think he's fine...
 !test
 Failed.
[03:35] <LjL> Jucato: hm, it responded to a !test
[03:35] <Jucato> hm..
[03:35] <PriceChild> i'm guessing its just a channel he hasn't been unmuted in
[03:35] <LjL> it isn't in very many channels, though
[03:35] <Jucato> let me check
[03:35] <Jucato> LjL: your mute :)
[03:35] <LjL> Jucato: what channel?
[03:35] <Jucato> you muted both bots in #kubuntu :P
[03:35] <LjL> no, i only muted ubotu
[03:36] <Jucato> oh sorry
[03:36] <LjL> still...
[03:36] <Jucato> both bots are muted. you muted one
[03:36] <LjL> it isn't, let's see, in #kubuntu-offtopic
[03:37] <Jucato> hm... in #kubuntu both are muted according to the ban list
[03:37] <LjL> well i guess someone muted ubotwo but forgot to unmute ubotu
[03:37] <LjL> anyway, it's fixed now at least in #ubuntu and #kubuntu
[03:37] <apokryphos> I muted ubotwo, but I unbanned ubotu in #kubuntu ages ago
[03:37] <Jucato> great
[03:38] <apokryphos> didn't know there was a mute there
[03:38] <Jucato> thanks !
[03:38] <Jucato> :)
[03:40] <LjL> has seveas shown up, or did it just fix itself?
[03:40] <LjL> let's see what the speed's like now btw
[03:40] <LjL> !find dcopserver
[03:40] <Mez> !test
[03:40] <Jucato> :O
[03:40] <LjL> hm
[03:40] <Jucato> works in #kubuntu
[03:40] <apokryphos> racing ;-)
[03:41] <LjL> Jucato: yes, it does - but i used !find on purpose, because i know it was *very* slow yesterday
[03:41] <apokryphos> Jucato: doesn't seem to
[03:41] <LjL> i suggest we try to keep package lookups to a minimum
[03:41] <Jucato> yeah it http://forums.tantra.ph/index.php?s=95a954662b04f7c4d78489705fa7ac36&showtopic=48397&hl=linux
[03:41] <Jucato> er sorry
[03:41] <LjL> i think there's still a *lot* of load on its server
[03:41] <ubotu> File dcopserver found in kdelibs-bin, kdelibs-dbg
[03:41] <ubotu> Failed.
[03:41] <Jucato> still slow... :(
[03:41] <apokryphos> ok, looks like he's back now
[03:41] <apokryphos> !test
[03:41] <apokryphos> or not
[03:42] <LjL> i think it's really just the same as yesterday, except now it's managed to stay joined to all channels
[03:42] <LjL> well or at least to the ones i'm in
[03:43] <LjL> i'll leave ubotwo joined in -bots
[03:44] <LjL> !test
[03:44] <ubotu> Failed.
[03:44] <Mez> !test
[03:44] <LjL> Mez: use another factoid, you repeated it too fast
[03:44] <LjL> !java
[03:44] <ubotu> To install a Java compiler/interpreter on Ubuntu, look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Java - For the Sun Java runtime install sun-java5-jre from the !Multiverse repository
[03:45] <LjL> anyway it's fast enough - for factoids
[03:45] <LjL> i think it's just very slow on package searches
[03:45] <apokryphos> yeah
[03:45] <gnomefreak> i would try not to play too much if the server is that unstable it will quit due to flood
[03:45] <LjL> gnomefreak: and, i believe, never manage to join all channels again
[03:45] <LjL> so yeah, i'd rather avoid package searches as much as possible
[03:46] <jenda> Seveas: ping
[03:59] <pochu> !ops
[03:59] <ubotu> Help! Mez, LjL, elkbuntu, imbrandon, DBO, gnomefreak, Hobbsee, rob, ompaul, Madpilot, Burgundavia, Seveas, CarlK, crimsun, ajmitch, tritium, Nalioth, thoreauputic, apokryphos or tonyyarusso
[03:59] <apokryphos> pochu: ?
[04:00] <gnomefreak> pochu: ?
[04:00] <pochu> no problem
[04:00] <pochu> sorry
[04:00] <PriceChild> :s
[04:00] <pochu> :(
[04:00] <jenda> heh
[04:03] <Jucato> :O
[04:06] <ubotu> In #ubuntuforums, lotusleaf said: ubotu: !hurd is "The GNU Hurd is the GNU project's replacement for the Unix kernel." "It is not ready for production use, as there are still many bugs and missing features." http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html
[04:10] <PriceChild> !hurd
[04:10] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about hurd - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[04:11] <apokryphos> !hurd is <reply> The GNU Hurd is the GNU project's replacement for the Unix kernel. It is not ready for production use, as there are still many bugs and missing features. http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html
[04:11] <ubotu> I'll remember that, apokryphos
[04:11] <PriceChild> aww I was gonna do that :P
[04:12] <jenda> Seveas: I just had an unpleasant encounter with #ubuntu-es. 1) they banned *!*@*x-0* - ie. people with non-alphanumeric chars in their nicks who have cloaks. WTF? They undid this when I asked them to. 2) The channel is set to private and the access list is hidden, so there's no way of getting the ops to help (unless you're staff) 3) They didn't want to discuss this in english...
[04:12] <jenda> All they have is an @ops function.
[04:13] <PriceChild> jenda, didn't we have problems with them fighting over who was in charge and spats between forums/irc before? Or was that some other team?
[04:13] <jenda> no idea...
[04:13] <jenda> I don't recall that...
[04:14] <ompaul> hurd is either dead or on its death bed
[04:14] <PriceChild> probably haven't got the logs here
[04:14] <PriceChild> argh why does "-es" make it print everything...
[04:15] <ompaul> u\-\es
[04:15] <PriceChild> thankyou :)
[04:15] <ompaul> sorry
[04:15] <ompaul> u\-es
[04:15] <PriceChild> Nope...
[04:16] <PriceChild> must have been on other machine
[04:16] <PriceChild> I'm sure its the same channel...
[04:16] <PriceChild> !logs
[04:16] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
[04:16] <ompaul> -ChanServ- An access level of [1]  is required for [ACCESS LIST]  on #ubuntu-es
[04:16] <ompaul> Seveas, ^^
[04:16] <PriceChild> hmm that could take some time... hmm....
[04:17] <ompaul> Jenda I am of the opinion tht needs to be fixed - ubuntu is pretty much open
[04:17] <ompaul> they could loose their channel if they don't wake up
[04:18] <jenda> ompaul: I'm working on it.
[04:18] <PriceChild> has anyone else got logs of a couple weeks ago?
[04:18] <PriceChild> I'm sure its them
[04:18] <jenda> ompaul: I'm rather upset with them.
[04:18] <jenda> ompaul: and the guy refuses to speak english with me, so I have to half guess what he's saying.
[04:19] <PriceChild> unleash the true jenda....!
[04:20] <LjL> jenda: but you're speaking english with him yourself?
[04:20] <jenda> LjL: yes :)
 jenda, cualquier peticion hagalo a traves de Seveas
[04:20] <jenda> ok
[04:20] <LjL> if you have any questions, ask them through seveas
[04:20] <LjL> still
[04:20] <jenda> He's basically telling me: I ain't gonna budge unless you force me to through Seveas.
[04:21] <LjL> we've *often* had trouble with spanish-speaking clones breaking havoc in #ubuntu
[04:21] <LjL> given that attitude, now i wouldn't be perhaps too surprised if that came from -es itself
[04:22] <jenda> The LoCo team, I'm sure, should be able to provide some reasonable leadership for an IRC channel.
[04:22] <apokryphos> jenda: is he the loco team leader?
[04:22] <jenda> ...which is even smaller than this channel.
[04:22] <jenda> no
[04:22] <apokryphos> just wait till Seveas is around then if he has that attitude
[04:23] <LjL> jenda: what is the trouble anyway to start with? the banning thing is solved if i understood this correctly, so what you have an issue with is the private channel and access list, correct?
[04:23] <jenda> wait...
[04:23] <jenda> yes, he is.
[04:23] <jenda> damn
[04:23] <LjL> sorry if i've missed something but as you can see i've had to disconnect in the meanwhile
[04:23] <jenda> LjL: pretty much - they operate a channel, but don't offer any help with it... wtf?
[04:23] <LjL> wait, seveas is the team leader for the *spanish* loco team? :P
[04:23] <jenda> You won't find them unless you guess @ops will bring them
[04:23] <jenda> no
[04:23] <gnomefreak> jenda: pull rank. staff is above seveas
[04:24] <jenda> gnomefreak: not necessarily.
[04:24] <apokryphos> gnomefreak: but they're not violating any freenode policy
[04:24] <LjL> staff is just different
[04:24] <jenda> exactly
[04:24] <PriceChild> gnomefreak, FNstaff aren't really meant to get involved in channel politics etc.
[04:24] <jenda> it's Ubuntu channel policy
[04:24] <apokryphos> though it is an ubuntu channel trend to have channels public
[04:24] <jenda> They're just bothering staff.
[04:24] <apokryphos> it's fine, just wait for Sevy
[04:24] <apokryphos> PriceChild: msg?
[04:24] <jenda> People won't find ops - and will ask us for hely.
[04:24] <jenda> *help.
[04:25] <jenda> And we're to help in a spanish speaking channel which refuses to comunicate - I had to _hunt_ down their access list through teh higher staff, too.
[04:25] <jenda> gnomefreak: does that sentence make sense?
[04:25] <gnomefreak> s/of/was
[04:26] <gnomefreak> jenda: it does when i fixed it
[04:26] <LjL> well jenda if you have trouble understanding anything they're saying to you, i'm not spanish but being italian i suppose i can guess quite a bit
[04:26] <gnomefreak> in other words all ubuntu channels have staff on access list. was that staff that made that rule or ubuntu?
[04:26] <jenda> LjL: not at all, I can understand decently... the problem is they don't want to discuss it.
[04:27] <jenda> gnomefreak: ubuntu
[04:27] <LjL> gnomefreak: no, it was suggested - i think by nalioth - some time ago, and seveas was happy to implement that
[04:27] <LjL> iirc
[04:27] <jenda> gnomefreak: staff, by policy, doesn't intervene in channels.
[04:27] <gnomefreak> ah
[04:27] <ompaul> jenda, unless they have "memebership" cards first
[04:27] <ompaul> :)
[04:28] <jenda> hehe :)
[04:28] <jenda> yep
[04:28] <LjL> gnomefreak: the rationale is that staff often don't feel justified to do *any* op action in a channel (including acting on blatant abuse) unless they're listed as ops, so it's warmly suggested to list them
[04:28] <ompaul> one done
[04:28] <ompaul> :-)
[04:28] <jenda> LjL: yep
[04:28] <jenda> LjL: even then, staff prefer to talk people out of it rather than ban.
[04:29] <LjL> well the staff is crazy, but that's not what we're discussing :P
[04:31] <LjL> all i know is if seveas doesn't show up soon, he'll be kind of overwhelmed when he does... well, he'll be anyway
[04:31] <somerville32> He was already here
[04:33] <LjL> ah really? i guess lots of things happen in that strange period of time that people call morning
[04:34] <ompaul> let us put it this way, he will lurk in -es he will make a decision and it will be carried out that is the way of the contact for freenode
[04:35] <jenda> yep
[04:35] <jenda> I think the channel contact should be changed, but that's just me in emotional bias :)
[04:36] <LjL> there's some spanish-speaking nuisances in the channel even right now
[04:36] <LjL> if the channel contact is the guy who can speak english but refuses to, in concur...
[04:36] <LjL> s/in/i/
[04:37] <PriceChild> effie_jayx pm?
[04:38] <jenda> LjL: I don't know if he speaks english, actually.
[04:38] <LjL> jenda: well, if he understands it...
[04:40] <jenda> most probably.
[04:40] <jenda> And one other op spoke english with me and removed the ban, and told me to talk to the other guy... as soon as that guy came, the first stopped talking to me altogether, and the other guy (the contact) only spoke spanish.
[04:41] <gnomefreak> effie_jayx: speaks spanish ;)
[04:43] <PriceChild> gnomefreak, yeah i remembered about him earlier... And I'm almost sure I know him from when the -es irc/forums had a spat
[04:43] <gnomefreak> hes on -ve access list
[04:43] <gnomefreak> :)
[04:48] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-bots, lotusleaf said: ubotu: !plg is Project Looking Glass home: https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/ || PLG Demo: http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html || PLG Live CD: https://lg3d-livecd.dev.java.net/ || Binary Builds: https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/binary-builds.html
[04:48] <ubotu> In #ubuntuforums, Amaranth said: !xchatsysinfo is <reply> http://dev.realistanew.com/xchat/sysinfo.py
[04:50] <PriceChild> !xchatsysinfo is <reply> http://dev.realistanew.com/xchat/sysinfo.py
[04:50] <ubotu> I'll remember that, PriceChild
[04:51] <LjL> !plg is <reply> Project Looking Glass is an environment with 3D windowing and visualization capabilities. Web site: https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/ - Demo: http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html - Live CD: https://lg3d-livecd.dev.java.net/ - Binary Builds: https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/binary-builds.html
[04:51] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-ops, LjL said: !plg is <reply> Project Looking Glass is an environment with 3D windowing and visualization capabilities. Web site: https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/ - Demo: http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html - Live CD: https://lg3d-livecd.dev.java.net/ - Binary Builds: https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/binary-builds.html
[04:51] <LjL> yeah whatever
[04:51] <PriceChild> identify! :P
[04:51] <PriceChild> !plg is <reply> Project Looking Glass is an environment with 3D windowing and visualization capabilities. Web site: https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/ - Demo: http://wwws.sun.com/software/looking_glass/demo.html - Live CD: https://lg3d-livecd.dev.java.net/ - Binary Builds: https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/binary-builds.html
[04:51] <ubotu> plg is already known
[04:52] <LjL> i added it in a query
[04:52] <PriceChild> ah ok :)
[04:53] <LjL> actually i think i've just been on that site once, but didn't pay much attention. perhaps i can toy with it a little
[05:20] <jenda> Hear, hear! Ubuntu QUIZ in #ubuntu-trivia in 1 hour from now. Todays prize: Ubuntu Poster! You can't miss this!
[05:24] <jenda> Today's QUIZ theme: General Expressions (and more)
[05:31] <LjL> suggest someone else also keeps an eye on -offtopic
[05:44] <gnomefreak> Jucato: you around i have a couple of questions?
[05:52] <jenda> Ubuntu QUIZ in 30 minutes in #ubuntu-trivia. Today's theme: Regular Expressions (and more!). Today's prize: Ubuntu Poster! (Sponsored by jrib)
[05:53] <LjL> what happened?
[05:54] <jenda> LjL: no idea
[05:54] <jenda> What happened? :)
[05:54] <LjL> well there was this user i was less than comfortable with in -offtopic
[05:54] <LjL> somehow i guess he either left or has been banned now
[05:54] <LjL> but i preferred to go away with an excuse :P
[06:23] <jenda> The QUIZ in #ubuntu-trivia is about to start! Ready, get set, GO! Today's Prize: Ubuntu Poster! Theme: Regular Expressions (and more)
[07:21] <bigfuzzyjesus> When will my ban on #ubuntu-offtopic be lifted
[07:21] <LjL> i believe you were told last time that it would last an indefinite amount of time
[07:23] <bigfuzzyjesus> LjL, thats it?, i cant appeal?
[07:24] <LjL> bigfuzzyjesus: you can, i suppose, but i find it unlikely that it will be lifted
[07:24] <bigfuzzyjesus> LjL, why so
[07:24] <LjL> well because it was the n-th of a number of bans
[07:25] <bigfuzzyjesus> 2nd
[07:25] <bigfuzzyjesus> what
[07:25] <bigfuzzyjesus> i have not been banned 8 times
[07:26] <Mez_> sorry, those are remoes
[07:26] <Mez_> it doesnt show when I'm not logged in
[07:26] <Mez_> https://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/bans.cgi?anonymous=1&query=bigfuzzyjesus&kicks=on&oldbans=on&bans=on&oldmutes=on&mutes=on
[07:26] <LjL> [Fri Dec 29 2006]  [19:31:52]  <LjL>	now, do we want to give the possibility of appeal? [Fri Dec 29 2006]  [19:32:05]  <Seveas>	LjL, again? [Fri Dec 29 2006]  [19:32:11]  <LjL>	dunno. just asking [Fri Dec 29 2006]  [19:32:14]  <Seveas>	Are we as bad learners as him? [Fri Dec 29 2006]  [19:32:17]  <Hawkwind>	Nope [Fri Dec 29 2006]  [19:32:31]  <Hawkwind>	That should be, I vote no for the appeal
[07:26] <LjL> so, i guess not
[07:27] <bigfuzzyjesus> seveas obviously has a bias towards me
[07:27] <bigfuzzyjesus> i dont think you should vote for an appeal
[07:27] <bigfuzzyjesus> i think i should at least get a shot
[07:28] <LjL> alright
[07:28] <bigfuzzyjesus> even if you dont let me back in
[07:28] <LjL> then this is your appeal
[07:28] <LjL> i vote "no" against lifting the ban
[07:28] <bigfuzzyjesus> is there anyone else in here
[07:28] <LjL> assuming there's a voting process in place
[07:28] <somerville32> Ok
[07:28] <bigfuzzyjesus> LjL, that vote is based on what
[07:28] <somerville32> bigfuzzyjesus, Why were you banned again?
[07:28] <LjL> bigfuzzyjesus: on the number of bans, and on my belief that you'd shortly get another if you were let back.
[07:28] <bigfuzzyjesus> somerville32, i have been banned since thanksgiving
[07:29] <somerville32> LjL: [14:26]  <Mez_> sorry, those are remoes
[07:29] <apokryphos> bigfuzzyjesus: and you were very abusive
[07:29] <somerville32> bigfuzzyjesus, Why?
[07:29] <apokryphos> somerville32: https://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/bans.cgi?anonymous=1&query=bigfuzzyjesus&kicks=on&oldbans=on&bans=on&oldmutes=on&mutes=on
[07:29] <apokryphos> they're not just removes, of course
[07:29] <bigfuzzyjesus> well the last time i was in here a week ago tonyarusso said there would be no prob with  ban lift, you were just under a bot attack in #ubuntu
[07:30] <apokryphos> that's probably something completely unrelated
[07:30] <LjL> well, i think the log preceding your last bans speaks for itself, so i'll let others decide
[07:31] <bigfuzzyjesus> i understand that i crossed the line with my comment, but acknowledging that i crossed the line, why is the line not crossed when some one "stabs" someone
[07:32] <apokryphos> I explained this to you already several times
[07:32] <apokryphos> more than several, in fact
[07:32] <bigfuzzyjesus> and each time i didnt understand
[07:32] <somerville32> "bigfuzzyjesus> Gog123: you are a whiney girl that gets hand outs from his parents ant for that i hope you decelop terminal cancer"
[07:32] <somerville32> bigfuzzyjesus, Whats with you and insulting people with terminal disease?
[07:33] <somerville32> First you wish HIV upon Seveas and now Cancer on Gog123?
[07:33] <bigfuzzyjesus> somerville32, i dont do it anymore, it tends to get me in trouble
[07:33] <apokryphos> "stabs" is equivocal (with a possible non-violent meaning), terminal cancer is not. What don't you understand about that?
[07:33] <LjL> bigfuzzyjesus: well, apparently you did it again *after* you'd already *quite* understood it got you into trouble
[07:33] <LjL> so, now i have no reason to believe you really won't do it again a third time
[07:34] <LjL> i can find some other amusing quotes near that part (which, indeed, was the main reason of the ban), such as "<bigfuzzyjesus>    my uncle was hitler"
[07:34] <apokryphos> I vote for a definite no. Perhaps come back in a few months and your ban can be re-reviewed
[07:34] <LjL> but whatever, the terminal disease alone is enough for me
[07:34] <bigfuzzyjesus> knife: use a knife on; "The victim was knifed to death
[07:34] <bigfuzzyjesus> that is the definition of stab
[07:35] <bigfuzzyjesus> tell me how that is equivocal
[07:35] <apokryphos> that is ONE definition of stab
[07:35] <LjL> bigfuzzyjesus: no use arguing about this *again*. you were let known that wishing terminal diseases is *not considered ok*
[07:35] <LjL> now you knew
[07:35] <LjL> and you did it anyway
[07:35] <LjL> so, goodbye
[07:35] <LjL> appeal is up for what i'm concerned
[07:35] <bigfuzzyjesus> can i re appeal in a month
[07:35] <apokryphos> no, come back in a few months
[07:36] <bigfuzzyjesus> 2
[07:36] <apokryphos> I also suggest you don't try arguing the same issue then too
[07:36] <bigfuzzyjesus> ok
[07:36] <somerville32> bigfuzzyjesus, You may appeal your ban on March 19th
[07:37] <bigfuzzyjesus> you do also realize that 4 of those bans were jokes
[07:38] <apokryphos> I haven't been going on any other bans
[07:38] <apokryphos> well, I knew about the !ops abuse
[07:38] <apokryphos> (and the HIV Seveas incident)
[07:38] <bigfuzzyjesus> the !ops incident was an accident
[07:38] <bigfuzzyjesus> i take full responsibility for the other comments
[07:39] <bigfuzzyjesus> but i didnt know that !ops hilighted all the ops
[07:39] <somerville32> bigfuzzyjesus, No, but really. Come back in like 3-4 weeks. I mean, people do worse in #ubuntu-offtopic but you have certainly pushed people's buttons by doing it the same thing twice.
[07:40] <bigfuzzyjesus> i had honestly never seen that command in a channel. where that is used most is #ubuntu, which i visit only when i am having trouble with my computer
[07:40] <somerville32> It's ok :)
[07:41] <somerville32> You can appeal in a few weeks
[07:42] <somerville32> [14:42]  <bigfuzzyjesus> thank you for acting civil and using a humanistic approach to this instead of a militant approach exhibited by some of the ops
[07:42] <apokryphos> somerville32: I wish you would've messaged me before contradicting me in front of a banned user
[07:42] <somerville32> Just a smile can go a long way ;]
[07:43] <somerville32> apokryphos, How did I contradict you?
[07:43] <LjL> i'm in no mood for smiling
 no, come back in a few months
 You can appeal in a few weeks
[07:43] <somerville32> few weeks can be a few months easily
[07:44] <LjL> well you did say 3-4 weeks
[07:44] <apokryphos> few I consider to be "3 or 4"
[07:44] <apokryphos> right
[07:44] <somerville32> It was all rather ambigious
[07:44] <apokryphos> I don't believe so
[07:44] <somerville32> *ambiguous
[07:44] <LjL> at any rate, are you seriously saying that i should be *nice* to him, other than being respectful though harsh? i utterly disagree. he knew what he was doing very well this time, and he certainly knew he was watched
[07:44] <apokryphos> [18:32:13]  <bigfuzzyjesus> can i re appeal in a month
[07:44] <apokryphos> [18:32:21]  <+apokryphos> no, come back in a few months
[07:45] <LjL> so he's a troll. i'm not nice with trolls
[07:45] <somerville32> Why get emotionally involved at all?
[07:45] <LjL> my problem
[07:46] <LjL> still he deserved both the ban *and* the harsh but still respectful way i treated hinm
[07:46] <somerville32> Well, I hope we crack down on the other people in #ubuntu-offtopic then too
[07:46] <apokryphos> somerville32: to clarify, I don't mind you disagreeing with me at all, but I think we concluded in the last meeting that we wouldn't disagree in front of [appealing]  users
[07:47] <somerville32> apokryphos, It wasn't intentional. I apologize.
[07:47] <apokryphos> bad for team solidarity, etc
[07:47] <LjL> if you can clear the mess in -offtopic, be my guest
[07:47] <apokryphos> ok :)
[07:47] <somerville32> LjL: Well, I don't have ops there so I'm incapable of doing so
[07:47] <apokryphos> and now I should be off
[07:49] <LjL> and i'm not in a position to give you. at any rate, i can tell you that i'm aware that the way -offtopic is handled in inconsistent and kind of poor - however i have not myself decided on the best way to handle that rather peculiar channel
[07:49] <LjL> still, in a case when someone clearly intentionally does the same thing twice, i have little room left for doubts
[08:33] <stoo> hi, it says i ahve to come in here if i want back into the ubuntu channel
[08:34] <stoo> i am now connected on port 8001 to freenode as directed from the guide when being kicked for a vulnibulty
[08:38] <jenda> so much for vulnibilities.
[08:49] <somerville32> !test
[08:49] <somerville32> ubotu: tes
[08:49] <somerville32> : (
[08:50] <somerville32> !botisdead
[08:50] <ubotu> Failed.
[08:50] <somerville32> :D
[08:50] <somerville32> Yeah
[08:50] <somerville32> He is alive again
[08:50] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about tes - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[08:51] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about botisdead - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[08:53] <arrenlex> (12:51:57) arrenlex: !somebody | nn531
[08:53] <arrenlex> (12:52:33) ubotu: nn531: A large amount of the first questions asked in this channel start with "Does anyone/anybody..."  Why not ask your next question (the real one) and find out?
[08:53] <arrenlex> Look at the timestamps... why is ubotu so slow today?
[08:53] <arrenlex> (12:49:52) Ignite: !nvidia | zen
[08:53] <arrenlex> (12:50:43) ubotu: zen: To install the Ati/NVidia drivers for your video card, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto
[08:53] <arrenlex> Almost a minute there.
[08:54] <gnomefreak> arrenlex: server is having problems no need to paste in here
[09:34] <tonyyarusso> Is Seveas around perchance?
[09:38] <gnomefreak> yeah right
[09:38] <tonyyarusso> :(
[09:38] <tonyyarusso> Is he up to something particularly time-eating this week?
[09:39] <gnomefreak> tonyyarusso: not sure i havent seen him in days
[09:40] <tonyyarusso> gnomefreak: Huh, okay.  Thanks.
[09:40] <gnomefreak> if he went to the au confrence he could be traveling
[09:40] <tonyyarusso> My question is, um, _very_ non-critical, so I can wait :)
[09:40] <gnomefreak> i think that was this past week
[09:40] <somerville32> He was here this morning :/
[09:40] <gnomefreak> oh ok
[10:00] <Seveas> I'm here
[10:00] <Seveas> tonyyarusso, --^
[10:00] <Seveas> I was out buying a car and helping my brother move
[10:01] <somerville32> ^-^
[10:01] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: Ah, cool.
[10:01] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: My q was if you could look into the link for the Larts database on the bots' web site - gives a 403 forbidden
[10:01] <gnomefreak> Seveas: lives?
[10:02] <Seveas> jenda, please don't spam other channels kthxbye (re: -locoteams)
[10:02] <Seveas> gnomefreak, finally
[10:02] <Seveas> had to work a few nightshifts
[10:02] <Seveas> and I bought a car today
[10:02] <somerville32> Seveas: We've had a fun time while you were gone
[10:02] <gnomefreak> :)
[10:02] <Seveas> somerville32, so I read
[10:02] <somerville32> I think it's all good now
[10:02] <jenda> Seveas: will do ;)
[10:02] <jenda> Seveas: err, wil not do.
[10:03] <Seveas> btw: bot host was down for a bit today
[10:04] <jenda> Seveas: what about the -es?
[10:05] <Seveas> jenda, tell me more
 I think it's all good now <-- gnomefreak do you agree?
[10:06] <gnomefreak> i dont think so
[10:06] <gnomefreak> Seveas: i think things that were done need to be looked into jokingly or not
[10:06] <Seveas> gnomefreak, ok
[10:06] <Seveas> was it all in here?
[10:07] <gnomefreak> logs are public so seeing an op tell a user to join a channel that used to be auto kline is bad on all of us
[10:07] <somerville32> Seveas: Not entirely. A few of them called the individual's ISP and then e-mailed them.
[10:07] <gnomefreak> oh and we need to look into why hawkwind quit
[10:07] <Seveas> somerville32, I saw that on IRC
[10:08] <Seveas> great way to spoil my only free day this week :(
[10:08] <gnomefreak> but other than that i would say the ban stays and we should all be happy for that
[10:08] <jenda> Seveas: ok, i will, in 10 mins.
[10:09] <gnomefreak> Seveas: oh and the person using his ops as a threat could have beenn dne a little bit nicer
[10:09] <gnomefreak> s/dne/done
[10:10] <Seveas> bots will be back soon
[10:10] <Seveas> server maintenance
[10:10] <gnomefreak> Seveas: your allowed
[10:11] <Seveas> gnomefreak, wtf?
[10:11] <gnomefreak> ;) your allowed to kill bots as you like
[10:13] <LjL> Seveas: i haven't seen the bot host being *down*, but they certainly have behaved weirdly in the past two days. seemed more like under heavy load, by the looks of it
[10:13] <Seveas> LjL, yes
[10:13] <Seveas> it's a bug in planet
[10:13] <LjL> yesterday ubotu started parting and joining in succession, it stopped when it was banned from a couple of channels
[10:13] <Seveas> it kept on firing of processes that went on running for hours
[10:14] <jenda> Seveas: the problem started with #ubuntu-es banning *!*@*x-0* , which is anyone who <has a non-alphanum character in their nick> and <has a cloak>... they wouldn't budge, so the person in question came to me, as freenode staff. I came in the channel, and found that the access list is hidden (requires 1 access) and the channel is set to private. If I wasn't staff, I wouldn't've been able to see the list at all.  He said I should talk about the other things to the #1 op, who wasn't there.
[10:14] <LjL> supybot's certainly a bit sensitive to server load, i could reproduce that here too... well, i didn't *mean* to, but i did anyway
[10:15] <Seveas> jenda, is pelicano still #1 op?
[10:15] <jenda> Seveas: Then, the #1 guy appeared, and refused to speak english to me. He showed me that there was a @ops command and claimed ops were easy to find. When I explained (in english) that it's not true, when people have to ask freenode for help, he said I should resolve this issue with you.
[10:15] <jenda> Seveas: yes.
[10:16] <Seveas> jenda, ok, let me ponder about this for a bit while I rebuild a raid array
[10:16] <jenda> (ie. he only talked spanish, I talked english, it was rather confusing)
[10:16] <jenda> ok.
[10:16] <gnomefreak> does he know english?
[10:16] <LjL> a traves de you. do you like to be resolved a traves? :P
[10:16] <LjL> gnomefreak: apparently he could understand jenda's enlighs
[10:16] <gnomefreak> true
[10:16] <LjL> yeah, well, that
[10:17] <jenda> gnomefreak: I have no way of knowing, but he didn't have a problem understanding me, and the #2 guy sent me to him, in english, so he probably supposed he would talk to me.
[10:17] <Seveas> jenda, pelicano speaks decent english and he should as contact person
[10:17] <jenda> Yes.
[10:17] <gnomefreak> oh
[10:18] <jenda> Although I didn't exactly understand what he said (half guesswork), it didn't seem overly polite.
[10:18] <jenda> I must admit I wasn't too corteous either - I can pastebin the log if you wish.
[10:19] <gnomefreak> it works fairly good on the 5 or so langauges it knows
[10:21] <jenda> I didn't have too much trouble understanding, and checked one word in an online dictionary.
[10:23] <Seveas> jenda, no need to pastebin. I trust your word as ubuntu member/op and freenode staff
[10:23] <jenda> ok
[10:23] <Seveas> jenda, what do other freenode staffers think about such situations?
[10:23] <jenda> I've already got it in the pastebin :)
[10:23] <jenda> Seveas: they aren't violating any freenode policies.
[10:23] <jenda> It's your channel, basically.
[10:24] <jenda> I was there as an Ubuntu op, and only coincidence brought me there as freenode staff.
[10:24] <jenda> o
[10:24] <jenda>  if that makes sense :)
[10:24] <Seveas> thing is, I've seen pelicano do weird things before and am inclined to have something done about it
[10:24] <Seveas> if I had time, I would ask other #ubuntu-es ops about their opinion and do what seems best after that
[10:24] <jenda> It's in your jurisdction, and I personally think the spanish locoteam should do something about it.
[10:25] <Seveas> if you have time to do so, please speak with a few of the ops
[10:25] <jenda> pelicano is, however, listed as one of the contacts for that, too.
[10:25] <jenda> I can't say I exactly have the time, but I'll do it.
[10:25] <jenda> Seveas: is 48 hours from now ok?
[10:25] <jenda> I'll have enough time then.
[10:25] <Seveas> jenda, 480 hours from now would be just as fine
[10:26] <Seveas> it's been on my agenda for months
[10:26] <jenda> ok
[10:26] <jenda> I'll investigate ;)
[10:26] <jenda> xuzo is the other spanish team contact, I'll try speaking to him, first.
[11:06] <Seveas> bots are coming back
[11:06] <Seveas> raid rebuild is done
[11:17] <ubotu> In ubotu, shadebug said: ubuntu studio is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudioPreparation
[11:19] <somerville32> !ubuntustudio
[11:19] <ubotu> ubuntustudio is a site is for the musician who wishes to use Ubuntu as their Digital Audio Workstation, at  http://www.ubuntustudio.com. Or visit  #ubuntu-studio
[11:19] <somerville32> !ubuntu studio
[11:19] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ubuntu studio - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
[11:19] <somerville32> !ubuntu studio is <alias> ubuntustudio
[11:19] <ubotu> I'll remember that, somerville32