[00:00] <dtchen> aboSamoor: it's intentional, actually.
[00:01] <aboSamoor> dtchen, sorry, DCed [actually gdm crashed after PA upgrade]. you mean notify-osd ?
[00:01] <dtchen> aboSamoor: namely, $GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION is not set
[00:02] <DanaG> oh yeah, the "model=mobile" adi1984 changed things... but actually didn't entirely fix the mute behavior.
[00:02] <aboSamoor> dtchen, but the use case is that a user just installed kubuntu-desktop won't expect that his gnome desktop will get affected !
[00:02] <bjsnider> DanaG, if there are no hardware controls with the gnome volume control applet, then you'll have to use another app that does have hardware controls
[00:03] <DanaG> yeah, I already know that... but it's a use-case suggestion.  Perhaps add an input-source thing for each card?
[00:03] <dtchen> aboSamoor: kubuntu-desktop gets the new xdg notification work
[00:05] <dtchen> DanaG: there's a lot of flux in the quirks. that's the nature of evolving quirks. or broken bioses. or broken codecs. or some madness therein.
[00:05] <DanaG> it'd have to be a window back to whatever ALSA already sees.
[00:05] <DanaG> Oh yeah, did I tell you about the funkyness of my USB CM106-based sound card?
[00:05] <bjsnider> dtchen, i understand perfectly.
[00:05] <DanaG> It has "Speaker" and "Speaker 1", and only the latter seems to do anything.
[00:06] <DanaG> And it claims to go from 0% (0.0dB) to 100% (0.0dB).  =þ
[00:06] <dtchen> welcome to the usb audio specifications and the variety in sneaking in one's quirks
[00:08] <aboSamoor> dtchen, I am not aware of the technical details, my arguments that if it is hard to detect that the login manager will affect the target session. For many users this mean that installing Kubuntu will mess their installations. By the way, I could not find the login manager in the preferences anymore, which means that the user has to edit a text file to change the default login manager.
[00:08] <bjsnider> does usb audio work well on any other platform?
[00:08] <DanaG> At least it works better in Linux than it does with stock Windows drivers... the stock usb-audio driver in Windows shows 7.1 channel audio but is silent; the OEM driver gives stereo, 4, 5.1, or 7.1-channnel; the Linux in-the-box driver gives works, though 7.1-only.
[00:11] <bjsnider> i guess that answers my question
[00:11] <DanaG> Sound card itself is Audio Advantage SRM, though it used to be called "Roadie".
[00:11] <bjsnider> it works well on mac if you're using one of their devices
[00:11] <DanaG> Same device, different color.
[00:12] <DanaG> http://www.turtlebeach.com/products/audio-advantage-srm/home.aspx
[00:14] <DanaG> My onboard sound card has its own quirks -- the mute thing, most notably.
[00:15] <aboSamoor> dtchen, the mic I have on my friend's laptop is working only PA is removed. do you think I should test if the mic is working in my laptop with PA removed to see if it is supported in the new kernel. All the testing I did was with PA installed.
[00:18] <DanaG> Oh yeah, I have a pair of white desk-mics that have never worked for me, on any computer I've ever had.  Must just be crappily designed.
[00:33] <dtchen> aboSamoor: sure, but pa in karmic now is hardly the breaking point
[00:33] <dtchen> aboSamoor: also, you've always been able to dpkg-reconfigure gdm|kdm
[00:33] <aboSamoor> dtchen, I tried reconfigure, but it did not work with me
[00:34] <Q-FUNK> and sure enough, tonight's pulseaudio update really broke things :S
[00:34] <dtchen> Q-FUNK: where "really" is...?
[00:35] <dtchen> aboSamoor: where is the breakage?
[00:35] <Q-FUNK> dtchen: volumes all get reset to zero and/or muted upon reload
[00:35] <Q-FUNK> i.e. volume restore broke
[00:35] <aboSamoor> dtchen, it runs without giving any message and nothing is changed in default file in /etc/X11
[00:36] <dtchen> Q-FUNK: i can't reproduce that locally. what does running it manually with -vv show WRT restoring?
[00:38] <billybigrigger> dtchen, have you had anyone complain about destructively loud volume? ie rapid volume increase?
[00:38] <Q-FUNK> re
[00:38] <Q-FUNK> dtchen: as I was saying, volume restore broke
[00:39] <scizzo-> hmmm
[00:39] <scizzo-> anyone knows how to fix IPOD permission error? from rhythmbox?
[00:40] <scizzo-> the auto mount creates the mount as root
[00:40] <Q-FUNK> unless, of course, I missed some new config feature that I should have enabled for that to work?
[00:41] <scizzo-> nvm
[00:41] <scizzo-> seems that first mount created it as root and once I removed it and inserted it again it worked just fine
[00:42] <aboSamoor> dtchen, removing PA from karmic is not easy like jaunty, my system went crazy gnome-settings-manager --> 100% CPU, and XORG --> 50%, just installing PA again everything returned sane
[00:43] <dtchen> aboSamoor: removing it is not the preferred test pattern; you'll probably want to edit default.pa and use device=dmix (for module-alsa-sink) and device=dsnoop (for module-alsa-source)
[00:43] <dtchen> Q-FUNK: are you using pavucontrol?
[00:44] <Q-FUNK> dtchen: no, why?
[00:44] <dtchen> Q-FUNK: see if that makes any difference
[00:44] <Q-FUNK> this is a sound server, using system.pa mode
[00:44] <dtchen> aha.
[00:45] <dtchen> billybigrigger: a lot of people complain about the initial volume on boot prior to login
[00:46] <dtchen> billybigrigger: there's not terribly much that can be done globally. not even the per-card udev bits can address that.
[00:46] <Q-FUNK> dtchen: initial volume restore used to work fine until this udev module, though
[00:47] <dtchen> Q-FUNK: interesting. is pulseaudio-module-hal still installed, and if so, does purging it resolve the issue?
[00:48] <Q-FUNK> dtchen: it's definitely not there anymore
[00:51]  * aboSamoor wondering why nautilus is not as stable as dolphin, it is older by years !
[00:51] <dtchen> Q-FUNK: if you have the time, please verify whether a per-user instance also exhibits the symptom
[00:51] <joebob777as7> I installed kde4 now I'm stuck with the oxygen mouse icon. I tried to change it in appearance but it won't change to any other mouse icon set...
[00:52] <joebob777as7> sorry mouse theme not icon
[00:53] <aboSamoor> joebob777as7, what is the login manager you use to login to gnome ?
[00:53] <joebob777as7> aboSamoor, I kept it gdm
[00:54] <aboSamoor> joebob777as7, I did the following I restored gdm as the default and changed the icon theme from the appearance preferences
[00:55] <joebob777as7> how do I restore gdm if I never changed it?
[00:55] <aboSamoor> joebob777as7, what is the output of cat /etc/X11/default-display-manager
[00:56] <joebob777as7> aboSamoor, /usr/sbin/gdm
[00:57] <aboSamoor> joebob777as7, what is the chosen cursor theme ? is it DMZ white ?
[01:00] <joebob777as7> aboSamoor, default
[01:00] <Q-FUNK> dtchen: is there a way to make PA never touch the physical volume of the hardware, after I've set every control to an optimal level?
[01:01] <joebob777as7> aboSamoor, I just changed to dmz white and no change.
[01:01] <aboSamoor> joebob777as7, you have to restart the session I think
[01:01] <joebob777as7> ok
[01:02] <joebob777as7> what did dontzap package become?
[01:04] <aboSamoor> joebob777as7, I think logging out is the same as restarting X
[01:26] <hggdh> aboSamoor, not always
[01:29] <aboSamoor> hggdh, what is not always ?
[01:30] <hggdh> that X restart on logout
[01:33] <hggdh> at least on some few version ago, this was not the default. I am looking for it now
[01:43] <xim_> could karmic really break my system?
[01:43] <Tekno> yes
[01:44] <xim_> like hardware damage?
[01:44] <Tekno> no
[01:44] <Tekno> but broken OS
[01:44] <xim_> if i have my homefolder .configs on a seperate partition, is it going to mess up my config files?
[01:45] <xim_> like is that just a liability disclaimer or is it really that unstable?
[01:45] <Tekno> just better keep away from it
[01:45] <Tekno> until karmic is released in october
[01:46] <xim_> but my current ubuntu is falling apart and im about to reformat anyway
[01:46] <xim_> i expect to reformat again in october
[01:47] <xim_> trying an alpha doesnt seem that risky, i was just about to instal karmic alpha tonight until i randomly saw this channels motd
[01:53] <xim_> yes ive decided im doing it
[01:53] <DanaG> odd... and restarting PA... now it offers surround.
[01:53] <xim_> just for the sperience
[01:55] <hggdh> bloody hotel connection only lasts for 24 hours :-(
[02:04] <xim_> anyone in here actually using karmic alpha?
[02:16] <hggdh> xim_, theoretically, at least, everybody on this channel is using karmic. I have been on it pretty much since the start
[02:17] <xim_> its strange then because it seems like this is the channel for scaring people away from it ;p
[02:17] <xim_> have you had any disasters?
[02:18] <Twigathy> I am. nvidia driver broke once, and gdm broke another time. Other than that it's been pretty smooth going.
[02:19] <xim_> i see, so its rocky but doable
[02:19] <xim_> how bad were those to recover from?
[02:19] <Twigathy> er, well the nvidia driver might have been my fault, not sure... just re-installed it
[02:19] <Twigathy> gdm dropped to console for a while 'till the new packages got uploaded...
[02:20] <Twigathy> actually, no, dropped to console and hacked about a bit :)
[02:21] <akio> anybody see progress with Bug #405943 ?
[02:22] <xim_> lol im used to dealing with constant problems anyway
[02:22] <xim_> as long as its not gonna bullet my hard drives and currupt all my data without warning lol
[02:23] <xim_> which is what the motd made me think
[02:23] <akio> I start right out with alphas
[02:23] <xim_> i havent upgraded my system since hardy
[02:24] <xim_> but i wanna play with the new alpha for a month or so before reformating in oct
[02:25] <Twigathy> I'm mostly testing it so that if something breaks NFS root I can yell at people to unbreak it :)
[02:25] <Twigathy> 'cos my desktop is [almost] diskless (CompactFlash for /boot)
[02:25] <xim_> cool
[02:26] <xim_> im amd 64
[02:26] <xim_> main issue i was thinking of
[02:51] <hggdh> xim_, I *have* had bad moments with it, ranging from not being able to use the network to fubar-ing X
[02:51] <hggdh> nothing I could not recover from, but YMMV
[02:52] <hggdh> (and I have *not* moved to ext4 yet)
[02:52] <xim_> i see
[02:52] <xim_> ill probably jump onto ext4
[02:53] <akio> i love it
[02:53] <xim_> im prepared to walk a minefeild tho
[02:53] <xim_> is there any hacks to make vista able to read ext3 or ext4?
[02:53] <akio> yes
[02:53] <akio> I don't remember the name of the program but there is.
[02:53] <hggdh> heh. The whole point of warning prospective karmic users is that you *must* be prepared to have problems
[02:53] <xim_> i think im gonna do a dualboot
[02:54] <akio> Its free as in beer
[02:54] <xim_> as in beer?
[02:54] <ripps> How do I suspend from command without sudo?
[02:54] <hggdh> xim_, if you have the disk space, this is a sane option
[02:54] <akio> I don't know why I said that.
[02:55] <xim_> i thought you meant like, its free now but you might have to put out later
[02:55] <hggdh> akio, at least on the hotel I am staying, beer is free for me
[03:20] <DanaG> oh yeah, ext2fsd does not do ext4.
[03:21] <DanaG> oh yeah, why does Grub show a low-res "welcome to grub" before initializing gfxterm?
[03:26] <ripps> How do I suspend from command without sudo?
[03:31] <ripps> The old dbus key I used to use to suspend ubuntu in my sleep timer script doesn't work anymore. How can I suspend my computer from commandline without using sudo?
[03:32] <DanaG> hmm, did the old one use HAL?  sounds like you'd have to switch it to use udev.
[03:32] <DanaG> er
[03:32] <DanaG> devicekit-power.
[03:33] <oldude67> hey DanaG hows the mouse pad problems going?
[03:33] <DanaG> I'm just sticking with fake-two-finger scroll.
[03:33] <oldude67> decided to give up on it for now?
[03:34] <ripps> How do I get devkit-power to suspend?
[03:34] <DanaG> yeah, the auto-adjust is too persistent.
[03:34] <DanaG> I'm curious of that myself.  perhaps google for dbus devicekit suspend?
[03:35] <oldude67> im curious, why are they trying to get rid of hal?
[03:35] <akio> DanaG, I still have my bug.
[04:17] <DanaG> ooooooh, now PulseAudio moves streams back to where I last put them, after an unplug and replug!
[04:27] <joem> does anybody know how to enable madwifi drivers on a 9.10 alpha install? is there a madwifi dkms package availabe somehwere?
[04:30] <Sarvatt> why would you want to?
[04:31] <joem> Sarvatt,  it is what I was using for wireless on my macbook before with 9.04 and now I don't have any wireless support
[04:31] <Sarvatt> i dont think there is, but there is not much point to using madwifi anymore over ath5k
[04:32] <Sarvatt> ah most likely you upgraded and the new package doesnt exist but it kept the blacklist for the kernel wifi modules around, really really really common problem
[04:32] <joem> ath5k didn't work very well with the card on my specific model unless there is a newer version that might work
[04:32] <joem> I'm not sure how to go about getting the wireless up and going again in the easiest way
[04:33] <Sarvatt> grep -R "ath5k" /etc/modprobe.d/
[04:33] <Sarvatt> see it blacklisted in there anywhere?
[04:33] <joem> yea
[04:33] <Sarvatt> yeah want to remove the blacklists in there then, they really need a transitional package for madwifi
[04:35] <Sarvatt> madwifi and the kernel drivers merged not long after the jaunty kernel
[04:36] <joem> Sarvatt, awesome thank you
[04:36] <Sarvatt> (which was like 8 months ago)
[04:36] <billybig1igger> ola all
[04:37] <billybig1igger> DanaG: how goes it tonight?
[04:37]  * DanaG is mucking around with his router.
[04:37] <DanaG> Switched back from "tomato" to dd-wrt, to get the vlan feature.
[04:37] <DanaG> Bummer dd-wrt insists on disconnecting every time you "apply changes".
[04:39] <billybig1igger> never used dd-wrt
[04:39] <billybig1igger> whats tomato?
[04:39] <DanaG> More stable, and nicer UI, but fewer features.
[04:39] <billybig1igger> hmm
[04:39] <DanaG> compared to dd-wrt, that is.
[04:40] <billybig1igger> stock linksys firmware works for this guy :P
[04:40] <DanaG> I didn't use the stock Buffalo firmware.  :=þ
[04:41] <DanaG> n0ow that's a funny-lookin' smiley.
[04:41] <billybig1igger> haha
[04:41] <DanaG> Looks kind of like a pig sticking out its tongue.
[04:44] <DanaG> root§dd-wrt:ß#
[04:44] <DanaG> odd.
[04:47] <DanaG> interesting... nm-network-editor doesn't offer ipv6 settings.
[04:47] <Sarvatt> its linux, just set up the vlan yourself and stick with tomato :D
[04:48] <Sarvatt> (busybox vconfig)
[04:49] <Sarvatt> theres probably a tomato mod with a web interface to do it by now
[04:50] <Sarvatt> http://www.linksysinfo.org/forums/showthread.php?t=60800&highlight=vlan
[04:50] <Sarvatt> there we go
[05:04] <DanaG> goddamn dd-wrt... just lost all my settings!
[05:04] <DanaG> AND I wasn't even DONE setting it up yet!
[05:29] <uberushaximus> Is there I way I can fix tty consoles in the current release?
[05:29] <uberushaximus> or is anyone else seeing anything like that? (Blinking cursors instead of logon prompts)
[05:45] <andresmh> so I did apt-get upgrade, a bunch of stuff got upgrded including linux-image. I thought it was upgraded to 2.6.31-5 (see: http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5076/synaptic.png) but grub only shows 2.6.31-4 and older. 2.6.31-4 fails so I have to boot with 2.6.31-3. Am I missing something?
[05:45] <andresmh> this is the kernel panic error  I get when I boot 2.6.31-4: http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9691/img5404e.jpg
[06:27] <bjsnider> is there any other text editor for gnome besides gedit?
[06:31] <andresmh> bjsnider, yes, there are many! vim is another one.
[06:32] <billybigrigger> andresmh, did you get my reply to your post on the forums?
[06:33] <bjsnider> i didn't mean vim and nano
[06:33] <andresmh> billybigrigger, is this your response: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7741406&postcount=2
[06:34] <billybigrigger> yeah
[06:34] <andresmh> yeah, I did what you said. See: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7741344#post7741344
[06:34] <andresmh> I haven't rebooted since then though. Should I expect the new kernel to show up in GRUB?
[06:35] <billybigrigger> Found linux image: /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.31-5-generic
[06:35] <billybigrigger> Found initrd image: /boot/initrd.img-2.6.31-5-generic
[06:35] <billybigrigger> yeah, it will be there when you boot
[06:35] <andresmh> excellent! thanks a lot billybigrigger
[06:36] <billybigrigger> np
[06:49] <DanaG> http://www.hadess.net/2009/07/bad-at-updates-easy-51.html
[06:49] <DanaG> hmm, I don't see a "port" selector.
[06:49] <DanaG> I have a device selector, but no "port" selector.
[06:50] <DanaG> http://0pointer.de/public/g-v-c-ports
[06:50] <DanaG> I don't have that.
[07:05] <richardcavell> can anyone vouch for all the sound updates that have appeared over the last 2 days? My youtube has no sound but games do
[07:05] <richardcavell> as in, should I install them?
[07:07] <kklimonda> richardcavell: works fine for me
[07:07] <kklimonda> as always YMMV ;)
[07:08] <richardcavell> kklimonda: yeah that's what I'm afraid of
[07:09] <richardcavell> kklimonda: youtube and applications produce no sound.  But my video games do.  Go figure.
[07:09] <kklimonda> video games use alsa directly?
[07:10] <DanaG> oh yeah, handy hint: use pavucontrol -- it lets you specify which device to put each audio app on.
[07:10] <Sarvatt> DanaG: what do you mean "port" SELECTOR?
[07:10] <DanaG> I mean, "mic or line".
[07:10] <DanaG> that sort.
[07:11] <Sarvatt> sorry, darn caps
[07:11]  * DanaG wishes pidgin could do at least italics in IRC.
[07:11] <DanaG> I mean, I can understand not doing colors, because they're annoying... but mere italics would be hard to overly abuse.
[07:13] <richardcavell> kklimonda: no I'm using them on wine
[07:13] <richardcavell> Counter-Strike on wine produces sound.  Youtube doesn't.
[07:14] <Sarvatt> keyboard on this thing sucks :D hmm, screwing with things in pavucontrol completely changes the options i get in g-v-c, but there isnt anything but the stereo mic to pick for input at the most
[07:14] <Sarvatt> maybe if i actually plug in a mic..
[07:16] <DanaG> I see my sound CARD.... but nothing about a port.
[07:16] <DanaG> I see "input analog stereo" on both the internal card and the external card.
[07:16] <DanaG> But that's not a port.
[07:17] <DanaG> My internal one has an onboard array mic AND an offboard stereo mic jack.
[07:17] <Sarvatt> have you tried plugging in a mic?
[07:17] <Sarvatt> pretty sure i read all this had jack detection so it wouldnt expose it until it was plugged in
[07:17] <DanaG> 0h yeah, I forgot.. I tweaked my laptop to set model=mobile, to get mute working right.
[07:17] <DanaG> So there's no selector at all there, oddly enough.
[07:18] <DanaG> The card itself supports two independent capture streams at the same time, but PA doesn't use that ability.
[07:19] <Sarvatt> yeah i wasnt crazy, 2.6.31 added jack detection, if i could just find a mic to plug in there to see if it pops up
[07:19] <DanaG> You can always try a random pair of headphones.
[07:19] <DanaG> won't work well, but should trigger detection.
[07:20] <DanaG> well, at least it has a sane default for internal: jack overrides built-in.
[07:21] <DanaG> I have to leave internal card as default mixer, or else my onboard card's mute button mutes the wrong card!
[07:22] <DanaG> dang, and now the hardware and software mute states have gotten wedged opposite each other.
[07:27] <DanaG> http://www.alsa-project.org/db/?f=f40f302ae919f4ec3dcb056eac725e7e51313dde
[07:27] <DanaG> there's my alsa-info.
[07:28] <DanaG> oh yeah, is it better to enable msi, or is default better?
[07:30] <Sarvatt> actually
[07:30] <Sarvatt> 	pulseaudio-0.9.16-test4.tar.gz
[07:31] <Sarvatt> 	05-Aug-2009 04:06 	1.8M
[07:31] <Sarvatt> 	g-v-c-ports.png	05-Aug-2009 01:50 	 35K
[07:31] <Sarvatt> new pulseaudio rtkit and that picture all posted yesterday, probably related
[07:31] <DanaG> the UI is still backwards, though.
[07:32] <DanaG> Ports are a property of the selected card, not vice versa.
[07:32] <DanaG> Thus, the port selection should be below the card selection.
[07:34]  * DanaG goes off to bed.
[07:34] <DanaG> grr, sleep button not working... have to use g-p-m right-click.
[07:35] <DanaG> s/right/left/
[07:58] <mac_v> has anyone noticed that sometimes , launching panel application/applets like nm-manager update manager takes time to open
[07:59] <mac_v> gnome-power-manager
[08:43] <achew22> I'm toying with KVM in the karmic release and it is requesting a "installation media url" the example provided makes me think I should go to ubuntu.com and go to  the download page, download a copy of my edition however when I direct the program to do such it asks for the server to send a .treeinfo which I am going to guess is different from a .iso. Does anyone know the proper url to sick the virtual machine creator on?
[09:54] <eMaX> hi all. I get this error: linux-image-server depends on linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.24-24-server; however:  Package linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.24-24-server is not configured yet.
[09:56] <soc> *sigh* ...
[09:57] <soc> looks like the karmic release cycle is a bit more unstable than the last few releases ...
[10:06] <mac_v> eMaX: looks like you are running jaunty > try #ubuntu
[10:10] <eMaX> actually hardy on that machine but thanks
[10:22] <nperry> bug 202089
[10:23] <nperry> Werid, getting ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:874:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave when trying to open moc
[10:24] <nperry> alsa force-reload solved it :s
[11:03] <mac_v> ack... i have 100 instances of udevd running! is that normal?
[11:04] <gnomefreak> god i hope not
[11:05] <mac_v> gnomefreak: i just sat counting them! there are literally 100! how do i submit a report with a list of the instances?
[11:06] <gnomefreak> well same way you would anything else? the problem is if they are different (what package do you use
[11:06]  * gnomefreak has a crap load of gdm i have 3/4 udevd running
[11:07] <mac_v> gnomefreak: what package? meaning?
[11:07] <gnomefreak> and a really really long list in ps aux
[11:08] <gnomefreak> mac_v: are all the udevd instances the exact same/
[11:08] <jpds> mac_v: pgrep udevd | wc -l - would of saved you some time :)
[11:08] <gnomefreak> and i would say copy and paste ps aux to a file and attach it to a bug report
[11:09] <mac_v> jpds:  > 102! i guess i missed some!
[11:09] <gnomefreak> 3 :)
[11:09] <jpds> 3 here.
[11:09] <gnomefreak> still should only be 1 IMHO
[11:10] <mac_v> gnomefreak: i file a bug against which package?
[11:10] <gnomefreak> udev?
[11:11]  * mac_v wonders why apport didnt detect udev!
[11:11] <gnomefreak> they are running under different apps  apps for lack of better word
[11:11] <gnomefreak> at least mine are
[11:12] <mac_v> ah.!! silly mistake i tried with -daemon!
[11:12] <gnomefreak> be back in a few
[11:22] <gnomefreak> mac_v: what did you try with --daemon?
[11:22] <mac_v> gnomefreak: instead of ubuntu-bug udev  , i tried ubuntu-bug udevd !
[11:22] <gnomefreak> mac_v: ah
[11:24] <gnomefreak> pgrep * | wc -l seems to be not so accurate
[11:25] <gnomefreak> mac_v: can have bug number when your done
[11:27] <mac_v> gnomefreak: Bug #409784 ,
[11:27] <mac_v> hehe weird title !
[11:29] <mac_v> gnomefreak: do i need to add the "ps aux" too?
[11:30] <gnomefreak> mac_v: i would
[11:30] <mac_v> ok.
[11:30] <gnomefreak> mac_v: are they the same binarys?
[11:31] <mac_v> they all look the same!
[11:34] <mac_v> going to reboot and check :)
[11:41] <gnomefreak> i love apport now :) it makes my life simplier
[11:42] <gnomefreak> 18 attachments 1 using ubuntu-bug and 17 using apport-collect
[11:43] <mac_v> gnomefreak: ack! on fresh reboot > 75!
[11:44] <gnomefreak> lol
[11:44] <gnomefreak> mac_v: to your bug try adding more info using apport-collect 409784
[11:45] <gnomefreak> just a thought
[11:45] <mac_v> yeah , just doing that
[11:46] <gnomefreak> mac_v: looks like everything is there from ubuntu-bug
[11:46] <gnomefreak> at least looks liek it
[11:46] <gnomefreak> like
[11:46] <mac_v> gnomefreak: still not yet uploaded...
[11:47] <gnomefreak> ubuntu-bug only attached one file on my gdm/nvidia bug so used apport-collect and it added 17 more
[11:47] <mac_v> apport-collect is a nice way to spam lp ;p
[11:48] <gnomefreak> it is but i just starting using it a few weeks ago and i lov eit know
[11:48] <gnomefreak> i dont have to ask people to attach each file and hope its what im looking for
[11:49] <gnomefreak> i did find out gdm has split into separate binaries == why i have 6 running.
[11:51] <gnomefreak> mac_v: for you it just gave same info over
[11:51] <mac_v> yeah... nothing extra!
[11:51] <gnomefreak> maybe because i added a task it gave me 17 more
[11:53] <gnomefreak> be back need to start coffe and have smoke
[11:56] <mac_v> gnomefreak: could udev have something to do with my nautilus hogging the memory ? sometimes nautilus use 10% of memory[from conky]
[12:02] <soc> hi
[12:02] <soc> nautlius is constantly crashing here ...
[12:02] <soc> can anyone confirm that?
[12:02] <soc> nautilus crashes and gets restarted instantly, crashes ...
[12:02] <soc> gnome-panel is filling up
[12:02] <gnomefreak> mcmemory is listed next to each process isnt it?
[12:03] <gnomefreak> soc: nope i only had 1 crash and i didnt notice it
[12:03] <soc> mhh, damit
[12:03] <soc> then i'll reinstall, i guess ..
[12:03] <gnomefreak> soc: file a bug report using the command ubuntu-bug nautilus
[12:04] <gnomefreak> soc: dont reinstall or you can file a report when apport pop-up dialog gets shown
[12:04] <soc> mhhh
[12:04] <mac_v> gnomefreak: udev memory for each is 828Kib , but sometimes nautils just starts to become sluggish,  i thought it may be due to the hybrid /home[ext3 inplace converted to ext4!]
[12:04] <soc> the cdimage of the amd64 version is only 670mb big ...
[12:04] <soc> is there anything missing compared to the i386 cd?
[12:05] <gnomefreak> mac_v: it could be but thats a long shot
[12:05] <gnomefreak> the 386 is more than 670?
[12:05] <mac_v> hehe... i just wanted to blame udev , and not my inplace upgrade!
[12:09] <gnomefreak> mac_v: are there any nautilus proc. running in udev in ps aux?
[12:11] <mac_v> i dont see it , but you can check the bug report too , i'v attached the ps aux
[12:20] <gnomefreak> mac_v: i will look at it after im done with email maybe an hour
[12:21] <mac_v> gnomefreak: no problem... thanx
[12:22] <gnomefreak> looking now so i dont forget
[12:22] <gnomefreak> holy crap
[12:23] <gnomefreak> mac_v: the 2 you missed were 3195 and 3205 ( going from 100 to 102
[12:25]  * gnomefreak wonders if you should have attaches ps aux | grep udevd instead of all of it
[12:25] <mac_v> gnomefreak: actually i counted them after arranging them alphabetically , but i missed some while scrolling i guess
[12:26] <mac_v> gnomefreak: i know , but the concerned devs might get the idea of what else is running , and might help them figure it out
[12:26] <gnomefreak> mac_v: yeah i know i thought of that after i typed it
[12:26] <gnomefreak> thats just really really odd
[12:27] <gnomefreak> mac_v: are you fully up to date?
[12:28] <mac_v> gnomefreak: yup , except for network manager , since i heard the last update caused loss of connection
[12:29] <gnomefreak> mac_v: yeah that was apparmor and its fixed
[12:30] <mac_v> oh.. some one told it was nm! well install that too :)
[12:30] <gnomefreak> mac_v: yeah most of us thought so but it was fixed in apparmor ubuntu9 ubuntu8 was borked version
[12:32] <mac_v> gnomefreak: have you noticed that gpm loads late in the notification area? or is it just for me!
[12:33] <gnomefreak> just you :)
[12:33] <gnomefreak> at least i dont see it
[12:34] <mac_v> aw :( ...well... rebooting
[12:34] <gnomefreak> oops forgot about coffee
[12:36] <loonyphoenix> I wonder why GNOME and Firefox doesn't set font dpi to what it says in xdpyinfo | grep resolution
[12:37] <loonyphoenix> IMHO the fonts should look the same size on screens with different DPI
[12:37] <loonyphoenix> X, too
[12:37] <loonyphoenix> they all set DPI to 96, 96 default
[12:38] <loonyphoenix> besides there are other advantages to using native dpi
[12:38]  * gnomefreak thankful i dont deal with firefox/fonts much i have other mozilla apps i work on :)
[12:38] <gnomefreak> loonyphoenix: asac would be the one to talk to about that.
[12:39] <gnomefreak> mac_v: and they are still problems :). be back coffee run
[12:39] <gnomefreak> s/:)/?
[12:40] <mac_v> gnomefreak: lol 84 now!
[12:44] <loonyphoenix> Hey, you know what else? Does anybody find the default subpixel slight hinting not ugly?  I personally always set hinting to medium or strong and most of the time revert to grayscale, unless the dpi of the screen is high.
[12:46] <gnomefreak> mac_v: note on bug it changes every restart
[12:47] <mac_v> ah.. right!
[12:48] <soc> loonyphoenix: i love the slight hinting ...
[12:49] <soc> it takes some time to adapt to it, but it's an optimal compromise between "let's display the font like on paper" (OSX) and "let's hammer the font into the pixel grid" (Windows)
[12:49] <soc> the medium/strong hinting is basically the microsoft-way ...
[12:55] <loonyphoenix> soc: um, if slight hinting was something between monochrome and medium hinting, I'd agree with you. But as I see it, it's backwards: monochrome > strong hinting > medium hinting > slight hinting. The farther you go, the blurrier the text, the softer the edges.
[12:55] <loonyphoenix> and slight is just too blurry
[12:55] <mac_v> gnomefreak: is there an apport command like ubuntu-bug?
[12:56] <soc> loonyphoenix: is there even a diffenrence between medium and strong hinting?
[12:56] <mac_v> i.e. to start a bug report?
[12:56] <soc> afaik the only difference between strong and medium is a small difference in how the console fonts are rendered
[12:57] <loonyphoenix> yeah, the difference is very slight
[12:58] <loonyphoenix> btw, I like how some fonts render in monochrome
[12:59] <loonyphoenix> liberation fonts look best in monochrome, imo
[12:59] <loonyphoenix> is there a way to turn off hinting for specific fonts?
[12:59] <loonyphoenix> I'd like to experiment)
[13:01] <gnomefreak> loonyphoenix: file a bug against fonts (maybe the one you are using)
[13:03] <loonyphoenix> gnomefreak: Yeah, I think I'm gonna do that. Or maybe a brainstorm idea... But I think there were several already, they just were too technical to gain any spotlight.
[13:07] <gnomefreak> loonyphoenix: more likely to be seen in a bug report. or at least faster that way.
[13:17] <loonyphoenix> gnomefreak: There's already a bug for the DPI thing https://bugs.launchpad.net/gnome-control-center/+bug/157398
[13:18] <gnomefreak> good makes your life easier :)
[13:18] <penguin42> anyone else finding after hibernate the screen isn't locked?
[13:18] <loonyphoenix> but it's a wontfix :(
[13:19] <loonyphoenix> although it's a "fix realeased" too...
[13:19] <loonyphoenix> I need to read the comments...
[13:28] <loonyphoenix> hey, soc, is that you commenting on that bug? :)
[13:30] <soc> i guess
[13:31] <Lademord> Help!  Right now I can't Alt-Tab and I can't mouse-click ANYTHING
[13:31] <Lademord> The mouse moves around fine, though
[13:31] <soc> loonyphoenix: somehow they couldn't get everything fixed before the 9.04 release, but instead of just reverting that change, they have now hardcoded it somewhere else
[13:32] <soc> so we have at least 4 places now where dpi settings interact with each other
[13:32] <loonyphoenix> soc: that's horrible
[13:32] <loonyphoenix> karmic should definitely fix this
[13:32] <Boohbah> Lademord: development releases will do that. have you tracked down the bug?
[13:32] <loonyphoenix> if upstream already does things properly
[13:33] <Lademord> Boohbah, I can't navigate to Firefox! I just barely made it in here thanks to Alt+F2
[13:33] <gnomefreak> Lademord: the icons are not working?
[13:34] <jonathonf> what window manager are you using? compiz or metacity?
[13:34] <Lademord> gnomefreak, it's like the whole GNOME has frozen. I can't click on ANYTHING even though I can move the mouse fine
[13:34] <Lademord> jonathonf, whatever is default I think. I don't remember having changed anything
[13:35] <gnomefreak> Lademord: maybe nautilus crashed?
[13:35] <loonyphoenix> soc, do you know if this dpi has any relevance? grep DPI /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[13:35] <jonathonf> just out of interest, try running ' metacity --replace ' with alt-f2
[13:35] <Lademord> gnomefreak, when? I just booted the PC
[13:35] <soc> it depends
[13:36] <Lademord> I can't even click the buttons here in XChat
[13:36] <gnomefreak> Lademord: look in /var/crash  sometmes you wont know it crashed
[13:36] <soc> loonyphoenix: if you have set your dpi manually it may, but if gnome thinks the dpi is somehow "wrong" it just assumes 96
[13:36]  * gnomefreak wonders if you enabled compiz
[13:36] <soc> loonyphoenix: i don't understand it anymore, too
[13:36] <Lademord> jonathonf, no luck. Only managed to lose focus from XChat
[13:36] <jonathonf> Lademord: does xchat have a titlebar?
[13:36] <jonathonf> oh
[13:36] <Lademord> yep
[13:37] <Lademord> Also, Banshee is open in the background but that's not responding as well
[13:37] <jonathonf> killall banshee ?
[13:37] <jonathonf> killall gnome-panel
[13:37] <jonathonf> killall nautilus
[13:38] <jonathonf> there's something hogging resources
[13:38] <gnomefreak> disable compiz
[13:38] <jonathonf> gnomefreak: metacity --replace should have done that
[13:38] <gnomefreak> jonathonf: sorry missed that
[13:38] <jonathonf> ;)
[13:39] <gnomefreak> bug mail is done finally
[13:39] <Lademord> jonathonf, according to top 'gconfd-2' is sitting in 30% of the CPU for some reason...
[13:39] <Lademord> never seen that before
[13:39] <jonathonf> ah ha
[13:39] <jonathonf> killall metacity
[13:39] <jonathonf> wait
[13:39] <jonathonf> compiz --replace
[13:39] <jonathonf> then killall metacity
[13:40] <gnomefreak> alot of killalls (reboot does same thing)
[13:40] <jonathonf> yeah, but that's no fun :)
[13:41] <Lademord> jonathon compiz --replace briefly made me able to select menus for, like, 5 seconds before everything froze agani..
[13:41] <Lademord> Maybe I should just try a reboot once again.
[13:41] <jonathonf> is gconfd still at the top of top?
[13:42] <Lademord> jonathonf, no. Now nothing seems to be hogging any resources..
[13:42] <Lademord> Hey, I can click the menus in XChat again!
[13:42] <Lademord> damn, it seems to be coming and going at random!
[13:43] <Lademord> Whoah, this is screwed up
[13:43] <Lademord> Rebooting, brb
[13:43] <jonathonf> gl
[13:43] <jonathonf> :)
[13:48] <mac_v> I'm missing the shutdown icon from the system menu ... has fusa been restored?
[13:48] <Lademord_> jonathonf, back from reboot. It still keeps flashing between working and not-working. In a way that makes me suspect if my mouse and keyboard have joined in on the conspiracy..
[13:48] <Lademord_> top reports no suspects
[13:49] <jonathonf> what graphics card do you have?
[13:49] <Lademord_> nVidia 9600GT
[13:49] <jonathonf> which drivers are you using?
[13:49] <Lademord_> no idea
[13:50] <jonathonf> can you get into a terminal?
[13:50] <Lademord_> yes
[13:50] <gnomefreak> mac_v: fusa is now part of gnome, its there just no shutdown restart options. you can try to disable the shutdown menus in System. before it was built in removing those would add them to fusa
[13:50] <jonathonf> ok, try ' apt-cache policy nvidia-glx-180 '
[13:50] <gnomefreak> he opened term and crashed?
[13:51] <gnomefreak> oh nevermind ;)
[13:51] <jonathonf> gnomefreak: ghost
[13:51] <jonathonf> lol
[13:51] <Lademord> Installed: 185.18.14-0ubuntu3
[13:51]  * gnomefreak putting off sunbird another day i think
[13:51] <mac_v> gnomefreak: the present one is not fusa , its user-switch-applet , tedg is reworking FUSA for karmic
[13:51] <gnomefreak> !info nvidia-glx-180
[13:51] <gnomefreak> mac_v: ah
[13:52] <Lademord> hmm.. maybe I should just revert back to jaunty for the time being.. I don't want to risk a broken system when school starts again
[13:52] <mac_v> gnomefreak: do you have the shutdown option in your system menu?
[13:52] <gnomefreak> im using those drivers and other than flashing black every once in a while no problems
[13:52] <gnomefreak> mac_v: yep
[13:52] <gnomefreak> mac_v: lock screen log out and shut down
[13:52] <Lademord> is it possible to downgrade directly without having to backup?
[13:52]  * mac_v everything crazy happens only to me!
[13:52] <jonathonf> Lademord: karmic should be pretty stable come five weeks
[13:52] <penguin42> gnomefreak: That doesn't appear to be unique to any one type of hardwaer
[13:53] <gnomefreak> Lademord: downgrading isnt supported and it is very likely to break just about everything
[13:53] <Lademord> jonathonf, yeah, but school starts in two!
[13:53] <mac_v> i'm missing only shutdown... i;m using terminal to shutdown and restart!
[13:53] <jonathonf> oh :)
[13:53] <Lademord> gnomefreak, crap... then I'll have to see if  can get some terminal black magic to backup my stuff to the external HDD...
[13:53] <gnomefreak> mac_v: try killall gnome-panel
[13:54] <gnomefreak> mac_v: or gnome-panels dont rmeember if its panels
[13:54] <mac_v> gnomefreak: hehe.. solved! thanx
[13:54] <gnomefreak> penguin42: the flashing black?
[13:54] <gnomefreak> mac_v: np
[13:55] <penguin42> gnomefreak: Yeh, I get it on Intel graphics
[13:55] <gnomefreak> mac_v: it loads weird sometimes
[13:55] <gnomefreak> penguin42: ah i filed bug with gdm and added nvidia task oh well :)
[13:55] <mac_v> gnomefreak: weird , i didnt have the option since 2 days and i have restarted my system several times but it didnt load the item properly!
[13:55] <gnomefreak> i do feel better im not the only one seeing it
[13:56] <penguin42> gnomefreak: Mine is bug 401441
[13:56] <gnomefreak> mac_v: it did it for me for ~2 weeks
[13:56] <gnomefreak> penguin42: mine happens while working not screensaver
[13:56] <gnomefreak> penguin42: i can be typing here and it will do it
[13:56]  * mac_v stupid panel , making us do all the kills!
[13:56] <penguin42> gnomefreak: Indeed, that's what is happening for me
[13:57] <gnomefreak> but that wouldnt be screensaver
[13:57] <penguin42> gnomefreak: Well it shouldn't be but have you got any suggestion what it is ?
[13:57] <gnomefreak> unless its starting prematurly
[13:57] <penguin42> gnomefreak: Suggestion on there is it's g-p-m
[13:57] <gnomefreak> penguin42: not a one sorry :)
[13:58] <gnomefreak> penguin42: its possible
[13:58] <penguin42> gnomefreak: If you're seeing the same thing then please dupe (either direction) that one
[13:58] <gnomefreak> looking for my bug atm
[13:58] <penguin42> it's a most disconcerting bug
[13:59] <gnomefreak> penguin42: bug 409792 is mine
[14:00] <jonathonf> Lademord: if you want, you could try the 190 drivers. they work great on my 9600gt
[14:00] <penguin42> gnomefreak: Hmm I'm not sure I've seen it during gdm, more normally just as I'm working post-login
[14:01] <penguin42> (and grrrr another FF crash....)
[14:01] <jonathonf> Lademord: ' sudo add-apt-repository ppa:nvidia-vdpau '
[14:01] <jonathonf> then sudo aptitude update
[14:01] <jonathonf> and sudo aptitude install nvidia-glx-190
[14:04] <gnomefreak> oops i did bad. i asked seb if it is a dup of yours since he commented on my bug
[14:04] <jonathonf> is there a netinstall iso for karmic kubuntu ?
[14:05]  * gnomefreak smoke
[14:06]  * mac_v wonders if gnomefreak is a chaing-smoker ;p
[14:06] <mac_v> chain*
[14:08] <kklimonda> hmm.. did flash stop working with pulseaudio recently?
[14:08] <kklimonda> have*
[14:08] <kklimonda> whatever ;)
[14:09] <penguin42> kklimonda: I haven't had it work recently - it works as long as I don't have anything using pulse
[14:10] <kklimonda> it seems that it doesn't even connect to pulse (I don't see it in sound preferences)
[14:10] <kklimonda> lame..
[14:10] <jonathonf> in answer to my own question, there isn't, you have to preseed the ubuntu netinstall with the kubuntu settings
[14:11] <kklimonda> oh well, now I lost my sound everywhere
[14:11] <kklimonda> remind me - why do we use pulseaudio?
[14:11] <kklimonda> ;)
[14:12] <oldude67> i dont
[14:12] <gnomefreak> mac_v: no just in alot of pain and it helps me cope with it. if needed ill be fixing sunbird
[14:12] <mac_v> best excuse i have ever heard ;p
[14:20] <BluesKaj> hiyas all
[14:20] <penguin42> hi
[14:21] <gnomefreak> hi BluesKaj
[14:21]  * BluesKaj drinks a wakeup coffee
[14:22] <BluesKaj> hi gnomefreak
[14:22]  * gnomefreak been drinking wake up coffee for ~ 3 1/2 hours and still not awake it seems
[14:22] <BluesKaj> hehe
[14:23] <BluesKaj> 9:22 AM here , so i woke a bit late
[14:23] <gnomefreak> here too
[14:23] <gnomefreak> i started coffee around 6am
[14:23] <penguin42> it's 2:20pm here and I've not really woken up yet - ah for being on holiday
[14:24] <BluesKaj> holiday in uk , what holiday ?
[14:25] <BluesKaj> oh you're on holiday...see still not awake yet
[14:25] <BluesKaj> :)
[14:25] <penguin42> oh, just taking the week off
[14:25] <BluesKaj> the offtopic cops will be here soon
[14:25] <jonathonf> i can do the honours if you want :D
[14:25]  * gnomefreak already is
[14:25] <jonathonf> !ot
[14:25] <jonathonf> woo!
[14:26] <jonathonf> !woo
[14:26] <jonathonf> meh
[14:26] <BluesKaj> !bah
[14:26] <jonathonf> !ubottu
[14:26] <gnomefreak> !snack
[14:26] <jonathonf> !coffee
[14:27] <gnomefreak> ok who revomed the bots brain :(
[14:27] <jonathonf> LOL
[14:27] <jonathonf> revomed ?
[14:27] <jonathonf> :P
[14:31] <gnomefreak> erased
[14:31]  * gnomefreak found out what happened
[14:35] <BluesKaj> brb , gotta check the wifi setup ...something 's amiss
[14:50] <aboSamoor> in sound preferences I don't have analog output anymore, this happened suddenly !
[14:51] <penguin42> exaile really seems to like Leonard Cohen today
[14:52] <jonathonf> aboSamoor: i think it's replaced by analog stero duplex
[14:52] <jonathonf> as in, input and output
[14:52] <aboSamoor> jonathonf, yeah, that happened yesterday and I noticed it. now, it is not available anymore !
[15:00] <gnomefreak> ok fixes are done :)
[16:23] <eagles0513875> hey guys i have a question where is the menu.lst located in grub2
[16:34] <drs305> eagles0513875: There is no menu.lst  Check out this wiki or thread for info on grub2 files: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grub2   http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1195275
[16:34] <BluesKaj> eagles0513875, it no longer exists , I edited /boot/grub/grub.cfg but there's a warning not to edit that file because it's autogenerated , so i'm not sure which grub2 file accepts edits
[16:35] <eagles0513875> hummm ok
[16:35] <drs305> It's all in the 2 posts. Grub 2 encompasses a major change in how the menu list is generated.
[16:35] <eagles0513875> gotcha
[16:35] <eagles0513875> basically all i wanna do is remove the splash screen during boot up
[16:35] <eagles0513875> ill read through that stuff
[16:35] <eagles0513875> thanks drs305
[16:36] <drs305> np eagles0513875  The file you are probably looking for is /etc/grub.d/05_themes but check the wiki for the details.
[16:36] <eagles0513875> will do
[16:37] <drs305> * 05_theme  no "s"
[16:37] <eagles0513875> ok will read through just to be safe
[16:38] <drs305> eagles0513875: If you have questions after checking either link come on back and we'll be able to help.
[16:39] <soc> hi
[16:39] <soc> any fix for that nautilus crasher?
[16:39] <eagles0513875> thanks drs305
[16:39] <soc> dmesg reports error 6 in libc-2.9.so
[16:41] <soc> *sigh*
[16:49] <jml> hi
[16:49] <jml> skype appears to be broken right now.
[16:49] <iddo> anyone got ssh-agent to work at login without gnome?
[16:58] <sodoku> i have problems with the java-common package, is this a known bug?
[17:04] <levtim> hi, anyone else having sound issues?
[17:04] <loonyphoenix> i haven't restarted since pulseaudio updated, so i have no idea... :)
[17:05] <mac_v> !grub2 | eagles0513875:
[17:06] <mac_v> eagles0513875: dont edit grub.cfg
[17:06] <eagles0513875> mac_v: hehe i saw drs305 beat ya to it bro
[17:06] <mac_v> edit it in /etc/grub.d
[17:07] <mac_v> ;)
[17:09] <eagles0513875> ohhh whoops
[17:09] <eagles0513875> that explains why that aint working
[17:13] <levtim> Does anyone know how the new audio system works? It seems totally different from 9.04.
[17:32] <aboSamoor> running youtube is making pulseaudio insane :(
[17:33] <natewiebe13> anyone know anything about printers in karmic?
[17:33] <natewiebe13> printers anyone?
[17:34] <Tekno> no
[17:35] <natewiebe13> both of my printers won't print.. the one just keeps resetting and the other prints nothing, just shoots out a blank page
[17:35] <Tekno> second one is hp?
[17:35] <natewiebe13> filed a bug report last week and there is no activity
[17:35] <natewiebe13> no its canon
[17:35] <Tekno> ok
[17:35] <natewiebe13> i tried both canon drivers and turboprint, and they both do the same thing
[17:36] <natewiebe13> the first printer is lexmark and it worked perfectly in jaunty but not in karmic.. im wondering why this is
[17:36] <aboSamoor> the analog output device is removed after playing youtube videos, and to restore the sound I have to restart !
[18:39] <Guest35724> need help #ubuntu isn't working
[18:39] <penguin42> it isn't working?
[18:40] <Guest35724> not for me, it say banned or stuff like that
[18:40] <Pici> Guest35724: Please join #ubuntu-ops
[18:40] <DanaG> grr, damn Flash.
[18:40] <DanaG> DOesn't register clicks on things.
[18:40] <DanaG> Not in youtube, and not on other sites, either.
[18:40] <Guest35724> same thing
[18:41] <Guest35724> i can't go on both ...
[18:41] <Pici> Guest35724: One moment.
[18:44] <Pici> Guest35724: Please join #ubuntu-ops again so we can discuss this.
[18:52]  * cwillu_clone pokes Sarvatt with a crappy acer laptop
[18:53] <cwillu_clone> Sarvatt, finally got time to create a fresh ext4 partition, which I've rsynced my old install to and then killed the old partition
[18:53] <cwillu_clone> Sarvatt, rumour has it that this might make suspend work :)
[18:53] <cwillu_clone> if I time out in the next 5 hours, it didn't :p
[18:59] <bcurtiswx> anyone know if google chrome supports flash and java?
[18:59] <Guest35724> yes but it only begin to ...
[18:59] <bcurtiswx> where can i get it?
[19:00] <cwillu_clone> bcurtiswx, I'd expect that it just uses netscape plugins
[19:00] <cwillu_clone> i.e., firefox compatible
[19:00] <penguin42> there's a ppa with chromium in
[19:00] <Guest35724> don't know, proprietary stuff is never good on an open source operating system ...
[19:01] <Guest35724> try firefox or flock that can be used on any regular operating system
[19:01] <cwillu_clone> well, the answer to his question actually has nothing to do with the proprietary status of the plugins in question
[19:01] <penguin42> Guest35724: Chromium is open
[19:01] <cwillu_clone> and chromium is open source
[19:02] <Guest35724> but for better support firefox and flock are there for a long time
[19:03] <bcurtiswx> firefox is a resource hog
[19:03] <bcurtiswx> even 3.5
[19:03] <Guest35724> try flock it's lighter ...
[19:04] <cwillu_clone> not really, it's the same renderer, which is at the core of firefox's resource issues
[19:04] <cwillu_clone> changing the xul isn't changing much
[19:04] <Guest35724> I use firefox cause it's customisable not for speed or else ...
[19:04] <penguin42> going multiprocess like chrome has is IMHO the right way
[19:04] <cwillu_clone> anyways, this is a pointless conversion
[19:04] <penguin42> true
[19:04] <bcurtiswx> haha, thanks for the help anyways.. didnt mean to start the pointless convo
[19:04] <cwillu_clone> :p
[19:05] <Guest35724> it's matter of choice but if you know others peoples pros and cons you could choice better for you
[19:05] <cwillu_clone> "doctor, I'm training for a marathon, what shoes would you recommend?"  "well, I'd recommend you don't run marathons"
[19:05] <Guest35724> lol
[19:06] <cwillu_clone> you see how that could be annoying? :p
[19:06] <DanaG> I use firefox because I like all the extensions I can use.
[19:06] <Guest35724> marathons are good for health so I don't think a doc would say that ...
[19:06]  * loonyphoenix uses chrome because he likes the font rendering better
[19:06] <Guest35724> mostly cardio ...
[19:07] <cwillu_clone> being able to run a marathon is good, but the marathon itself isn't healthy
[19:07] <DanaG> How about running half a marathon instead?    Cut those out, and I bet 99% of its cpu usage goes away
[19:09] <loonyphoenix> I think the thing that make Firefox seem slow is the fact it's built upon a big complex thing called gecko
[19:10] <loonyphoenix> which not only a rendering engine, it's somehow also responsible for rendering the interface
[19:10] <cwillu_clone> "I think I'm breathing heavy because I'm eating too many carbs"   "I think you're breathing heavy because you're fat"
[19:10] <loonyphoenix> and we have gtk for theat
[19:10] <loonyphoenix> *that
[19:11] <loonyphoenix> whereas chromium uses webkit which is a compact html engine and does only that
[19:11] <Guest35724> I just think when you browse you don't need big softwares running so a full-featured browser can use 500Mhz 64 Mo ram and it's ok if it work well and help productivity ...
[19:11] <loonyphoenix> renderes the web pages
[19:12] <loonyphoenix> a browser is always hanging in the background for me, i barely ever close it
[19:12] <loonyphoenix> and if it hogs too many resources it's bad
[19:12] <Guest35724> try dillo then
[19:12] <Guest35724> or w3m
[19:13] <cwillu_clone> people commenting on firefox's architecture who have hacked on its source, and as such can actually offer an informed opinion, raise your hand :p
[19:13]  * cwillu_clone raises his hand
[19:13] <loonyphoenix> hehe
[19:13] <loonyphoenix> well, what do you think of it then?
[19:13] <cwillu_clone> the background resource hoggage is exactly what I was talking about, and has _nothing_ to do with the gui toolkit it uses :p
[19:14] <loonyphoenix> doesn't it? the more tasks, the bigger the engine, the bigger the engine, the more code, the more code, the more memory leaks
[19:14] <cwillu_clone> you don't program much do you :D
[19:15] <loonyphoenix> i don't at all)
[19:15] <cwillu_clone> gecko is complicated because rendering html is complicated.  The gui aspects of it are actually the simple core of the whole thing
[19:15] <loonyphoenix> why can't it be stripped out then?
[19:16] <loonyphoenix> why does firefox use it to render interface instead of gtk?
[19:16] <loonyphoenix> just asking
[19:16] <cwillu_clone> because then you'd be replacing a single gui implementation with half a dozen different toolkit implementations
[19:16] <Guest35724> cwillu_clone as we could use about any browser on linux why you can't choose 2 or 3 that you use depending of your needs in that particular time ...
[19:16] <loonyphoenix> chromium's somehow doing it...
[19:16] <cwillu_clone> it's _way_ simpler to use a css/html'ish thing (xul) to fake 3 different platforms than it is to write to 3 different toolkits
[19:17] <cwillu_clone> loonyphoenix, the linux release is a year behind the windows release, for exactly that reason
[19:17] <loonyphoenix> I guess so...
[19:17] <Guest35724> chromium, firefox (or another mozilla based like flock) and opera mostly ... In my case
[19:17] <cwillu_clone> I'm not saying its a bad thing, its just a tradeoff
[19:18] <loonyphoenix> Still, Linux support for Firefox is worse than Windows support
[19:18] <loonyphoenix> I guess there are other things besides GUI which need to be adjusted)
[19:18] <cwillu_clone> there's a subtle point to what you just said there :)
[19:19] <cwillu_clone> the linux support feels like that because we get the windows preferences by default (simplification, but fairly accurate)
[19:19] <cwillu_clone> but when you see that, _that_'s something that would have to have been rewritten under the multiple-toolkits approach
[19:20] <cwillu_clone> (I'm not sure I stated that clearly)
[19:20] <loonyphoenix> I'm not sure what _that_ you're talking about)
[19:21] <cwillu_clone> okay, concrete examples :)
[19:21] <cwillu_clone> give me an example of something where the linux support feels worse than the windows support
[19:21] <cwillu_clone> (not including flash, because that's unrelated to firefox)
[19:21] <loonyphoenix> fonts
[19:22] <Guest35724> cwillu_clone firefox is built to be cross-platform don't ask it to be linux centric ...
[19:22] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, eh?  who said I wanted it to be linux centric?
[19:22] <cwillu_clone> I'm explaining the tradeoff
[19:22] <cwillu_clone> loonyphoenix, can you be more specific?
[19:22] <Guest35724> I use it cause it support apt-url for beginners and it share profiles with others os with a little configuration ...
[19:23] <cwillu_clone> fonts is actually a case where it uses the native libraries of the platform
[19:23] <bjsnider> font rendering is blurry without the ubuntu extension
[19:23] <cwillu_clone> i.e., a bad example :p
[19:23] <bjsnider> not blurry, but pixelated. not antialiased
[19:23] <loonyphoenix> Don't know why they look worse than in Chromium, then
[19:24] <cwillu_clone> bjsnider, I may be mistaken, but that's just a build-time option, no?
[19:24] <cwillu_clone> I've compiled firefox from source, I'm pretty sure that's all it is
[19:24] <bjsnider> what is, antialiasing?
[19:24] <cwillu_clone> yes
[19:25] <cwillu_clone> or the font render used, rather
[19:25] <bjsnider> i thought ubufox provided that
[19:25] <cwillu_clone> no, I don't even have ubufox installed on this laptop
[19:25] <loonyphoenix> For me, Firefox antialiases allright
[19:25] <bjsnider> every time i use a beta ff from a ppa, font rendering looks horrible
[19:26] <loonyphoenix> bjsnider: you need to create a .fonts.conf for those betas
[19:26] <SeveredCross> That's because font rendering on Linux generally tends to be wonky.
[19:26] <freaks> hi there, i have a little problem with sound level on karmic. all volumes set to maximum, and it still not enough
[19:26] <Guest35724> just compile yourself or use it from ubuntu repositories ...
[19:26] <SeveredCross> freaks: That's probably PulseAudio's fault.
[19:26] <freaks> what can i do to boost the audio level as they were ?
[19:27] <SeveredCross> I don't know how to resolve it though--I think I got it to work once, but I couldn't tell you how.
[19:27] <freaks> it works fine, its just that level are too low
[19:27] <freaks> SeveredCross, ic
[19:28] <cwillu_clone> freaks, there's probably a better way to do this, but alsamixer from the terminal should let you see the right volume meter
[19:28] <freaks> cwillu, its set to the max too already
[19:28] <cwillu_clone> freaks, once you set it, it should stick properly, so it that slider as high as you would _ever_ want to go, and then turn down pulseaudio's volume control
[19:28] <cwillu_clone> freaks, all of them?  or at least all of the relevant ones?
[19:28] <cwillu_clone> including pcm, etc?
[19:28] <freaks> yes
[19:29] <freaks> they are all at max
[19:29] <freaks> i have sound.. it works, but i want more
[19:29] <freaks> i need more, like on jauty and other distro,
[19:29] <bjsnider> cwillu_clone, is the fonts config file you're talking about why firefox can't use some of the fonts i've got here?
[19:29] <cwillu_clone> bjsnider, I'd suspect so
[19:30] <freaks> only in karmic i have that little sound level
[19:30] <freaks> yes even including pcm and etc
[19:30] <cwillu_clone> freaks, file a bug I guess (or at least check bugs.launchpad.net)
[19:30] <freaks> damn
[19:30] <freaks> i can
[19:30] <freaks> i can't believe
[19:30] <freaks> i'm the only only one with this issue so far
[19:31] <cwillu_clone> freaks, um, check the bug list
[19:31] <cwillu_clone> irc is not a representative sample
[19:31] <bjsnider> lots of people in here yesterday were complaining about volume problems
[19:31] <freaks> where is it ?
[19:31] <freaks> the bug list ?
 freaks, file a bug I guess (or at least check bugs.launchpad.net)
[19:31] <freaks> ok, thanks
[19:31]  * cwillu_clone has a low tolerance for poor reading comprehension today :p
[19:33] <cwillu_clone> (incidently, firefox on linux actually builds against gtk2 :p)
[19:33] <bjsnider> aren't there efforts to clean up gtk by gnome 3?
[19:34] <bjsnider> thought i read that somewhere
[19:34] <cwillu_clone> well, for some definition of clean
[19:34] <cwillu_clone> gtk1 and gtk2 support won't be going away, ever
[19:34] <cwillu_clone> but that's not a bad thing
[19:34] <bjsnider> easier to adapt to
[19:35] <bjsnider> easier to theme
[19:35] <cwillu_clone> I think the thought is to refresh the api, deprecated the old stuff, and move everything forward
[19:35] <cwillu_clone> but the legacy api will remain, probably as a separate library
[19:35] <Kjakan>  I would to to suggest that the default Visual Effects is changed to None in Ubuntu 9.10
[19:35] <cwillu_clone> Kjakan, why?
[19:35] <Kjakan> Change Desktop Background - Appearance Preferences - Visual Effects - None
[19:36] <bjsnider> he has an ati card
[19:36] <Kjakan> cwillu: Because older machines are unusable with it enabled.
[19:36] <cwillu_clone> Kjakan, older machines (or older video cards, rather) won't have it enabled
[19:36] <Kjakan> great news
[19:36] <cwillu_clone> they never _did_ have it enabled by default
[19:36] <cwillu_clone> only if the card actually supports the acceleration
[19:37] <Kjakan> Change Desktop Background - Appearance Preferences - Visual Effects - None
[19:37] <cwillu_clone> Kjakan, don't judge the performance of it by jaunty though, jaunty had known issues
[19:37] <Kjakan> Sorry
[19:37] <Kjakan> lspci gives
[19:37] <Kjakan> 01:05.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc Radeon IGP 330M/340M/350M
[19:37] <Zorael> What could be the cause if aptitude takes a second for each 5% when "Reading database"? Corrupt/bloated db? Where is that located?
[19:37] <Guest35724> can you check my packages choice for a minimal install for linux beginners ?
[19:37] <Guest35724> !paste
[19:37] <bjsnider> ah, he does have an ati card
[19:38] <Kjakan> It is on a Thinkpad R40e
[19:38] <Guest35724> http://paste.ubuntu.com/248785/ can you check a little ?
[19:40] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, honestly, a bog-standard ubuntu or xubuntu install is probably the friendliest for a beginner, unless they're technical and are looking to dive into understanding all the bits and pieces
[19:40] <Kjakan> well, well.  goodnight
[19:40] <cwillu_clone> that said...
[19:41] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, I'd also avoid wicd if they're non-technical unless you _know_ for a fact that things are broken
[19:41] <Guest35724> wicd work well ...
[19:41] <cwillu_clone> yes, but networkmanager is standard
[19:41] <DanaG> better than sliders at "max" is sliders at 0db (i.e. 0 gain).
[19:41] <cwillu_clone> and it also works wel
[19:41] <DanaG> ... as opposed to negative (low volume) or positive (distortion possible).
[19:42] <Guest35724> wicd always worked better for me
[19:43] <Guest35724> but I prefer /etc/rc.local file setup
[19:43] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, wicd historically worked better, but it's been a while since it was really an improvement over networkmanager for the majority of uses
[19:44] <cwillu_clone> and there's strong benefits to sticking with the standard stuff if possible
[19:44] <cwillu_clone> ease of getting support, less danger of breakage on upgrades, etc
[19:44] <syn-ack> Hi guys
[19:44] <DanaG> I prefer NetworkManager.
[19:44] <DanaG> I just have to enable "available for all users".
[19:44] <penguin42> just removing NetworkManager and doing it the old way can work if you're just after static IP
[19:45] <syn-ack> So, my baby was born. :D
[19:45] <DanaG> Then I get wifi even when at console.
[19:45] <cwillu_clone> congrats
[19:45] <penguin42> syn-ack: Congrats!
[19:45] <Guest35724> penguin42 the same but with my wifi ...
[19:45] <syn-ack> Thank you, thank you. Baby Girl coming in at 7lb 5oz, and 19 inches long
[19:45] <syn-ack> very healthy, very happy (so far)
[19:46] <Guest35724> rc.local file setup is the best ... console or GUI default wifi working and any wired connection also
[19:47] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, rc.local is definitely not the best, unless the thing never ever moves, in which case the best is still to set up a proper service entry
[19:47] <cwillu_clone> an upstart job is super simple to add
[19:47] <penguin42> syn-ack: Have you given her an email address yet?
[19:47] <DanaG> you know, networkmanager can do all that, too.
[19:48] <DanaG> As long as you check "available to all users", you don't even have to log in for it to connect.
[19:48] <syn-ack> Guest35724, I have to say this but the old fashioned static wifi config was the reason that I used to not run linux on my laptops
[19:48] <syn-ack> penguin42, sure have!
[19:48] <Guest35724> cwillu_clone I don't move or I just use wired connection outside ...
[19:49] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, also, check the dependencies of ubuntu-minimal and ubuntu-restricted-extras, you might find that they simplify your package selections quite a bit
[19:50] <Guest35724> how I check the dependencies of them ?
[19:50] <cwillu_clone> well, via synaptic or whatever
[19:53] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, dpkg-query -s <package-name> will show you the dependencies
[19:54]  * syn-ack dist-upgrades
[19:54]  * cwillu_clone replaces syn-ack's apt-get dist-upgrade with an aptitude full-upgrade
[19:54] <Guest35724> ubuntu-minimal don't seem decent ... ubuntu-minimal don't have a GUI inside it ... no gnome-core ...
[19:54] <syn-ack> cwillu, bah, I've never liked aptitude for some reason.
[19:55] <syn-ack> Even when I was still running debian
[19:55] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, as it stands, you don't have anything in there that pulls in a kernel
[19:55] <penguin42> Guest35724: It's called minimal for a reason you know!
[19:55] <cwillu_clone> i.e., for updates
[19:55] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, you also have packages listed that are already pulled in by other listed packages
[19:56] <cwillu_clone> ubuntu-restricted-extras pulls in alot of the packages you have listed for instance
[19:56] <Guest35724> tell witch ones please
[19:56] <penguin42> ubuntu-desktop gets you everything the desktop normally has doesn't it
[19:56] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, why don't you just start with xubuntu-desktop or ubuntu-desktop?
[19:56] <cwillu_clone> penguin42, yes
[19:57] <spy6> hi
[19:57] <spy6> is there any NEW queue in ubuntu like in debian?
[19:57] <cwillu_clone> spy6, no
[19:57] <spy6> hmmm
[19:57] <cwillu_clone> well, I don't think so at least, but I might have answered too quickely
[19:57] <Guest35724> penguin42 : but the bells and whistles that you don't use also
[19:57] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, such as?
[19:58] <TylerR> hey guys. any one know where the moved the login settings manager in karmic?????
[19:58] <penguin42> Guest35724: Well you can install it all package at a time for what you need or if you don't understand which are which then you just go the simple way
[19:58] <cwillu_clone> I mean, you're installing rar support.  If that's not a bell-and-whistle... :p
[19:58] <cwillu_clone> spy6, what are you looking for specifically?
[19:58] <Guest35724> evolution fspot Open office calculator  games ... (too long list)
[19:58] <penguin42> TylerR: Last I heard it was still being worked on - the thing is that the login system is now run as a  session so it has  to be done a bit differently
[19:59] <spy6> from http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=505877#47 i'm guessing jakarta-jmeter should hit karmic somehow
[19:59] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, so work from xubuntu-desktop then
[19:59] <TylerR> thanks penguin42
[19:59] <spy6> ubottu: are you a bot? :)
[19:59] <Guest35724> I do it for now but I want better ...
[19:59] <spy6> ubottu: ah thanks :)
[20:01] <syn-ack> ubottu, intelligent?
[20:01] <cwillu_clone> !botabuse
[20:01] <syn-ack> ;)
[20:01] <syn-ack> wasnt abuse, merely tickling it. :P
[20:02] <cwillu_clone> and I was telling you to get a room :p
[20:02] <syn-ack> hahaha
[20:02] <syn-ack> man, I'm tired
[20:02] <cwillu_clone> -> #ubuntu-offtopic
[20:02] <jonathonf> hmm
[20:02] <DanaG> s/tire/wheel/ syn-ack
[20:02] <DanaG> =þ
[20:02] <jonathonf> gedit[30656] general protection ip:7fedb697e403 sp:7fffdb414258 error:0 in libglib-2.0.so.0.2104.0[7fedb6945000+c5000]
[20:02] <jonathonf> ?
[20:02] <jonathonf> i thought only windows had general protection faults :D
[20:03] <cwillu_clone> gpf is a processor thing
[20:03] <DanaG> Or rather, an MMU thing/
[20:03] <DanaG> memory management unit.
[20:04] <penguin42> it's an x86 exception that covers a whole bunch of different screw ups
[20:04] <syn-ack> hrm
[20:05] <syn-ack> anyone know about an apt-get autoremove with regards to python 2.5?
[20:05] <syn-ack> rather a bug
[20:05] <cwillu_clone> syn-ack, should be fine (2.6 is installed)
[20:06] <cwillu_clone> unless you're actually depending on 2.5 yourself, in which case, just mark it as manually installed
[20:06] <syn-ack> alright, just upgraded and I didnt notice python was one of the upgrades
[20:06] <syn-ack> Obviously, I'm pretty preoccupied. :P
[20:06] <cwillu_clone> ooo, fancy new printer troubleshooter
[20:07] <cwillu_clone> talking to me as if it's people
[20:07] <Guest35724> can I see online what dependances pull lxde for intrepid (8.10)
 Guest35724, dpkg-query -s <package-name> will show you the dependencies
[20:08] <cwillu_clone> god I love repeating myself :p
[20:09]  * syn-ack makes clean, mrproper && oldconfig
[20:10] <Guest35724> i'm one 8.04 it won't do as lxde is in 8.10+ repositories only ...
[20:10] <Guest35724> on
[20:10] <DanaG> mrproper removes .config
[20:10] <DanaG> you sure you want that?
[20:10] <syn-ack> yep
[20:11] <syn-ack> DanaG, I messed up on the config somewhere and I dont feel like trying to find it so I'm just starting from scratch
[20:13] <Pici> !offtopic
[20:14] <Guest35724> hey will mesa 7.5 or 7.6 will be in 9.10 ?
[20:15]  * Guest35724 hope for mesa 7.6 with old ati cards support !!!
[20:16] <penguin42> My current karmic seems to have libgl1-mesa-stuff 7.5-1ubuntu1
[20:17] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, I think we're doing 7.5, but pulling in 7.6 stuff (for ati specifically)
[20:17] <cwillu_clone> .6 is late, so we're not planning on shipping it (as of two days ago)
[20:17] <syn-ack> A lot can happen in two days though....
[20:17] <syn-ack> I kinda hope it gets shipped
[20:18] <cwillu_clone> testing and reports on the ati ppa are appreciated :)
[20:18] <Guest35724> 7.6 is released ???
[20:18] <cwillu_clone> poke your head into #ubuntu-x if you want to test stuff
[20:18] <Guest35724> yes
[20:18] <cwillu_clone> Guest35724, no, that's why we're probably not going to be shipping it :p
[20:18] <Guest35724> !!!
[20:19] <cwillu_clone> if I have my version numbers straight :p
[20:19] <cwillu_clone> oooo, parcel!
[20:19] <Guest35724> ah it's 7.5 ...
[20:20] <SeveredCross> This is the repo we want to use for xorg-edgers, right: https://launchpad.net/~xorg-edgers/+archive/ppa
[20:20] <cwillu_clone> yes
[20:20] <SeveredCross> Just making sure I wasn't nuts. ;)
[20:21] <SeveredCross> Also, is update-manager known to be not working on Karmic?
[20:21] <syn-ack> Works here...
[20:21] <SeveredCross> Because mine hasn't ever started the little icon to notify me of updates.
[20:21] <syn-ack> oh haha
[20:21]  * penguin42 had some today
[20:22] <Guest35724> http://www.mesa3d.org/beta/ mesa 7.6 still beta ...
[20:22] <syn-ack> Dude, I havent had that icon since I was on Jaunty.
[20:22] <cwillu_clone> SeveredCross, the little icon was turned off by default in jaunty
[20:22] <SeveredCross> Oh, I never noticed that.
[20:22]  * SeveredCross slinks away into his little corner.
[20:24] <Guest35724> http://paste.ubuntu-fr-secours.org/src-33701 is it better ? what to add/remove/change ?
[20:25] <Guest35724> http://paste.ubuntu.com/248811/ this one is the same list ... sorry I'm french also ...
[20:31] <DanaG> https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/332945?comments=all
[20:31] <DanaG> Fixed? bull!
[20:32] <Guest35724> !offtopic
[20:32] <DanaG> who's offtopic?  "Also, is update-manager known to be not working on Karmic?"
[20:32] <DanaG> I was responding to that.
[20:32] <penguin42> as I say, it worked for me this morning
[20:33] <tanath> i changed my video card and now i get video input out of range while booting until X comes up, and again on shutdown. help?
[20:34] <penguin42> what did you change from/to ?
[20:34] <tanath> i tried dpkg-reconfigure, but it didn't help
[20:34] <tanath> ati 9800 to 9200se (my old one )
[20:35] <tanath> my new one seems to be dying
[20:35] <tanath> well, newer... :P
[20:35] <penguin42> and are you running with ATIs binary drivers?
[20:35] <tanath> nope
[20:35] <tanath> and the hardware manager doesn't see any drivers anyway
[20:36] <DanaG> Probably an issue with KMS... try booting with "nomodeset" and "radeon.modeset=0".
[20:37] <tanath> both at same time?
[20:37] <DanaG> Might as well.
[20:37] <DanaG> I know the latter is a valid parameter, but I'm not sure about the former.
[20:37] <DanaG> radeon.modeset is a correct parameter of the radeon module, but "nomodeset" may have been a Fedora thing.
[20:37] <tanath> ok, i'll try it.
[20:37] <tanath> mm
[20:38] <tanath> i'm also wondering about the .31 kernels. haven't been able to boot one yet
[20:38] <DanaG> Odd.
[20:38] <tanath> they all just hang at a blinking cursor
[20:38] <tanath> nothing seems to happen
[20:38] <DanaG> hmm, what does it do without "quiet splash"?
[20:38] <tanath> same
[20:38] <penguin42> tanath: Tell us more about your machine
[20:38] <tanath> it halts almost immediately, and just sits there with a blinking cursor
[20:39] <tanath> it's a pentium 4 - 3Ghz.. 1.5Gb RAM...
[20:39] <penguin42> hmm, nothing too unusual there
[20:39] <tanath> main drive is 160Gb
[20:40] <tanath> i'm almost surprised it's running right now. just been through a fire. but this is from before the fire so it's not that
[20:40] <syn-ack> tanath, does it give you a dump or oops report?
[20:40] <tanath> syn-ack, i don't think it gets that far
[20:40] <tanath> it doesn't appear frozen due to the blinking cursor, it just doesn't go anywhere
[20:41] <tanath> ctrl+alt+del still reboots it
[20:41] <syn-ack> Thats a bios call at that point
[20:41] <tanath> but i've left it for some time, and no progress is made
[20:41] <tanath> mm
[20:41] <tanath> it's on every .30+ kernel i've tried
[20:42] <syn-ack> tanath, check /var/log for a core dump or similar
[20:42] <tanath> i have to keep booting to the last .28 kernel
[20:42]  * penguin42 wonders if the P4 is a bit older than most people trying it
[20:46] <tanath> i'm not seeing anything obviously relevant
[20:46] <syn-ack> anything in demsg?
[20:49] <tanath> nothing that seems relevant
[20:49] <tanath> some i'm not sure
[20:49] <tanath> [    0.492058] system 00:0a: ioport range 0x500-0x53f has been reserved
[20:49] <tanath> [    0.492064] system 00:0a: iomem range 0xfec00000-0xfec00fff has been reserved
[20:50] <tanath> those two lines are surrounded by similar lines
[20:51] <syn-ack> hrm
[20:51] <tanath> when it starts to load the kernel, the screen blinks once, then goes to the blinking cursor in the top left corner, and just stays like that
[20:52] <tanath> there could be a message in a file i'm missing
[20:53] <tanath> i'm not sure exactly what i'm looking for
[20:53] <penguin42> tanath: You could try booting it with vga=ask to see if it changes things
[20:54] <tanath> for the .31 kernels?
[20:54] <penguin42> worth a try
[20:54] <tanath> i suppose
[20:54] <syn-ack> could also be an acpi thing too
[20:54] <syn-ack> Or a number of other things
[20:56] <tanath> hrm, my comp is being very laggy now :(
[20:57] <tanath> not sure why
[20:57] <tanath> did this earlier too. load avg went to like 16!
[20:58] <syn-ack> Whats top telling you?
[20:59] <tanath> top is taking forever to load
[20:59] <tanath> cpu load is like 10 right now
[20:59] <syn-ack>  12:59:46 up  1:22,  3 users,  load average: 1.74, 1.35, 1.09
[20:59] <syn-ack> :P
[21:00] <tanath> top still hasn't displayed anything
[21:00] <tanath> wait, there it goes
[21:00] <syn-ack> wow
[21:00] <DanaG> htop
[21:00] <tanath> i'm wondering if this is 'cause of recent updates
[21:01] <DanaG> is handy.
[21:01] <tanath> 'cause it wasn't like this before
[21:01] <DanaG> iotop... is also handy.
[21:01] <DanaG> !info htop iotop
[21:01] <DanaG> !info htop
[21:01] <DanaG> !info iotop
[21:01] <tanath> load average: 10.46, 7.06, 3.26
[21:05] <tanath> crap, forgot something. i gotta run. bbl
[21:06] <DanaG> new PA is awesome.
[21:06] <DanaG> I turn on my bluetooth headset, and my music moves to it.
[21:06] <DanaG> Sweet.
[21:06] <DanaG> Now if only there were a way to set more than one preferred card for an app:
[21:06] <DanaG> I have a USB sound card, a bluetooth headset, and the onboard sound card.
[21:07] <DanaG> I can set it to prefer either the first two.... but it can't prefer "<either>" over the onboard.
[21:07] <DanaG> That is, if I have it on headset, unplug the headset, and then plug in the USB sound card... it stays on the internal sound card.
[21:07] <DanaG> s/unplug/disconnect/
[21:12] <Regel> SHould I download Kubuntu 9.10 alpha3 or daily build?
[21:12] <Regel> *ubuntu
[21:13] <penguin42> Regel: If you install alpha3 you can keep it upto date with the current changes
[21:14] <Regel> yup, but then i'd have to download a whole lot of updates
[21:22] <bjsnider> DanaG, that's exactly what happens with the mac sound system too
[21:22] <DanaG> Not quite, actually.
[21:22] <DanaG> The mac lets you select a default, but doesn't have a per-app device-chooser.
[21:23] <DanaG> (a.k.a. pavucontrol).
[21:23] <bjsnider> when you plug in a usb headset, the sound moves into it
[21:23] <DanaG> Yeah, it moves ALL onto it... which is actually not what I want.  =þ
[21:23] <DanaG> What I like: leave web audio on onboard, so I can kill (mute) it at a moment's notice.
[21:34] <bjsnider> there haven't been any new pa releases since april
[21:35] <Sarvatt> you could probably set up a virtual output device and route certain sounds to that somehow
[21:35] <jonathonf> 0.9.16~test3 is out
[21:36] <Sarvatt> we're on test4 now
[21:36] <Sarvatt> came out yesterday
[21:36] <bjsnider> what kinds of features does it have, or is it just a bugfix?
[21:48] <dtchen> lots of new features
[21:49] <dtchen> Lennart's blog has a summary
[21:49] <jonathonf> ah ha
[21:49] <dtchen> also, you'll want to upgrade asap to 1:0.9.16~test4-0ubuntu2 when it's available
[21:49] <jonathonf> just looked, i have test4 -.-;
[21:49] <dtchen> some fairly crucial fixes in that package
[21:51] <jasdjasd> hey
[21:51] <jasdjasd> anyone running karmic alpha 3?
[21:51] <BUGabundo> hey guys!
[21:51] <jonathonf> jasdjasd: i think everyone will be running karmic ;)
[21:51] <jasdjasd> jonathonf, what do you think of it?
[21:52] <jasdjasd> stable enough to install?
[21:52] <jonathonf> works fine
[21:52] <jonathonf> for me, yes
[21:52] <jasdjasd> im wondering whether to wait till next week for alpha 4
[21:52] <jasdjasd> did they change any of the artwork yet?
[21:52] <jonathonf> does anyone have any problems with wireless network throughput?
[21:52] <jonathonf> not yet, that i know of
[21:52] <bjsnider> lennart has a blog?
[21:53] <dtchen> yes, he does
[22:06] <bjsnider> all sound cards are now upnp devices too?
[22:06] <bjsnider> that's highly unbad
[22:14] <DanaG> I didn't quite get that..
[22:14] <DanaG> does the UPNP guest see it as a source, or as a sink?
[22:14] <DanaG> And what package could I install on a secondary computer, to test that feature?
[22:21] <DanaG> ALSA lib ../../../src/pcm/pcm.c:2171:(snd_pcm_open_conf) Cannot open shared library /usr/lib32/alsa-lib/libasound_module_pcm_pulse.so
[22:22] <BUGabundo> woot
[22:22] <BUGabundo> I just killed it
[22:22] <diverse_izzue> hey everyone. has someone here successfully played with radeon KMS?
[22:25]  * BUGabundo wonders what a 40 pixel bar with text NO Indicators is doing stealing my precious bar
[22:31] <dtchen> DanaG: known
[22:31] <penguin42> BUGabundo: What is it?
[22:31] <DanaG> Cool.  Thanks.
[22:31] <dtchen> DanaG: basically, we have to decide whether it's worth making lib32pulse* so that lib32asound2-plugins can include it; the impetus was to trim ia32-libs as much as possible.
[22:32] <BUGabundo> penguin42: indicator-applet 0.1
[22:32] <richardcavell> BUGabundo: I just filed a bug report about that.  Is that a feature or a bug?
[22:33] <richardcavell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-applet/+bug/410067
[22:33] <BUGabundo> no idea
[22:33] <BUGabundo> I'm just about to remove it
[22:33] <BUGabundo> done
[22:33] <BUGabundo> ahhhhh
[22:36] <richardcavell> BUGabundo: want to add yourself as a confirmation of the bug?
[22:37] <DanaG> oh yeah, so what exactly does the new mediaserver plugin for PA do?
[22:37] <DanaG> Can't say I've used UPnP AV stuff ever.
[22:40] <BUGabundo> (10:36:23 PM) ***freenode does $ sudo aptitude full-upgrade
[22:40] <BUGabundo> (10:36:29 PM) freenode: lets see how good is the new PA
[22:40] <BUGabundo> (10:36:44 PM) freenode: of if dtchen is just ready to get a new batch of bugmail
[22:40] <BUGabundo> (10:36:52 PM) freenode: dtchen: how much bug mail do you get?
[22:40] <BUGabundo> (10:37:02 PM) freenode: as an user I get around 80 emails per day
[22:41] <BUGabundo> (10:37:28 PM) freenode: Remove the following packages:
[22:41] <BUGabundo> (10:37:28 PM) freenode: libmbca0
[22:41] <BUGabundo> (10:37:28 PM) freenode: pulseaudio-module-hal
[22:41] <BUGabundo> (10:37:31 PM) freenode: is this safe?
[22:41] <BUGabundo> (10:37:58 PM) freenode: The following packages have unmet dependencies:
[22:41] <BUGabundo> (10:37:58 PM) freenode:   pulseaudio-module-hal: Depends: libpulse0 (= 1:0.9.15-4ubuntu3) but 1:0.9.16~test4-0ubuntu1 is to be installed.
[22:41] <BUGabundo> (10:37:58 PM) freenode:                          Depends: pulseaudio (= 1:0.9.15-4ubuntu3) but 1:0.9.16~test4-0ubuntu1 is to be installed.
[22:41] <BUGabundo> (10:37:58 PM) freenode:   mobile-broadband-provider-info: Breaks: libmbca0 but 0.0.4+bzr66-0ubuntu1 is installed.
[22:41] <BUGabundo> darn wifi
[22:41] <jonathonf> pulseaudio-module-hal is replaced by pulseaudio-module-udev
[22:41]  * penguin42 hates to think why his wifi does that
[22:47] <diverse_izzue> ALSA doesn't seem to use pulseaudio as the default device in karmic, is that right? shouldn't that be the case?
[22:52] <lupine_85> a-ha, it LTSPs! :)
[22:53] <BUGabundo> eheh
[22:53] <lupine_85> with that bug fix, and the gods of DKMS appeased, it looks like LTSP is OK
[22:54] <lupine_85> the launchpad gods are not happy with my offering, though :(
[22:57] <bjsnider> DanaG, apparently according to poettering's blog entry, each sound card is a upnp source
[22:57] <bjsnider> so you cna stream sound to any upnp device
[22:58] <bjsnider> http://0pointer.de/blog
[23:02]  * penguin42 wonders if this is just the theme I'm using - the little down arrow at the right side of the FF3.5 URL bar disappears as I'm about to click on it - most disconcerting
[23:07] <BUGabundo> anyone using pidgin?
[23:07] <BUGabundo> need to test a bug
[23:07] <penguin42> ok, give me a sec I can get it running
[23:07] <BUGabundo> nice
[23:07] <penguin42> yep
[23:07] <BUGabundo> penguin42: wait  before start it
[23:07] <BUGabundo> I need the debug
[23:07] <DanaG> argh... how do you get rygel not to share my whole danged home folder?
[23:08] <penguin42> oh erm I'll quit it then
[23:08] <BUGabundo> and need you to enable a plgin
[23:08] <BUGabundo> that I'm not sure you have
[23:08] <penguin42> BUGabundo: what do you need me to do?
[23:08] <BUGabundo> evolution sync
[23:08] <BUGabundo> ok
[23:08] <penguin42> yeech evolution....
[23:08] <BUGabundo> install pidgin-gdbsym
[23:08] <BUGabundo> then start in gdb
[23:08] <BUGabundo> $ gdb --args pidgin -n --debug
[23:09] <penguin42> do you mean pidgin-dbg ?
[23:09] <BUGabundo> paste handle SIGPIPE nostop noprint
[23:09] <BUGabundo> penguin42: no.
[23:09] <BUGabundo> the other one
[23:09] <BUGabundo> you may need to have ddebs repo
[23:09] <BUGabundo> but ok, use that for now
[23:09] <BUGabundo> lets see if it is enough
[23:10] <penguin42> ddebs ?
[23:10] <BUGabundo> fyi deb http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/ddebs/ karmic main restricted universe multiverse
[23:10] <BUGabundo> !ddebs
[23:10] <BUGabundo> errr
[23:10] <BUGabundo> bad bot
[23:10] <BUGabundo> !debug symbols
[23:10] <BUGabundo> !debugsymbols
[23:10] <BUGabundo> !debug packages
[23:10] <BUGabundo> baa
[23:10] <hggdh> :-)
[23:10] <BUGabundo> penguin42: but nvm lets carry on
[23:11] <bjsnider> penguin42, that ff 3.5 problem doesn't happen here using the stock ubuntu theme
[23:11] <DanaG> hmm, the rygel thingy doesn't seem to do anything.
[23:11] <penguin42> bjsnider: Thanks
[23:12] <bjsnider> Daghow did you enable it?
[23:12] <penguin42> BUGabundo: OK, so it's running, it's in offline
[23:12] <bjsnider> whoops i mean that for DanaG
[23:12] <BUGabundo> ok
[23:12] <BUGabundo> penguin42: is the evo plugin enabled?
[23:12] <DanaG> Well, I mean, I installed the rygel server from a PPA, and I installed the PA rygel plugin, but it doesn't seem to do anything.
[23:12] <penguin42> BUGabundo: No, but I can enable it - although I don't normally use evolution
[23:12] <BUGabundo> penguin42: did you use: handle SIGPIPE nostop noprint
[23:13] <penguin42> yes
[23:13] <BUGabundo> ?
[23:13] <BUGabundo> ok
[23:13] <DanaG> granted, the only media thingy I have is gupnp-universal-cp.
[23:13] <bjsnider> DanaG, what ppa?
[23:13] <DanaG> jamesh/upnp
[23:13] <penguin42> BUGabundo: I now have a nice tick next to the 'Evolution Integration' plugin
[23:14] <DanaG> jamesh/upnp
[23:14] <DanaG> er
[23:14] <DanaG> jamesh/upnpjamesh/upnp
[23:14] <DanaG> argh
[23:14] <DanaG> damn firefox
[23:14] <aboSamoor> I did not expect that bug 402767 would get that heated discussion and attention !
[23:14] <DanaG> https://launchpad.net/~jamesh/+archive/upnp
[23:14] <BUGabundo> penguin42: make it run now
[23:14] <BUGabundo> set ONLINE
[23:15] <penguin42> Looks OK
[23:15] <DanaG> no gupnp-media-renderer?
[23:16] <aboSamoor> how can we help the discussion in a positive way ?
[23:17] <penguin42> BUGabundo: So I wonder if whatever your problem is needs evolution running and configured?
[23:18]  * DanaG agrees with the "burn it with fire" assessment.
[23:20]  * penguin42 prods BUGabundo
[23:20] <BUGabundo> penguin42: I don't have it running
[23:21] <BUGabundo> penguin42: did I crash?
[23:21] <penguin42> no
[23:21] <BUGabundo> :(
[23:21] <BUGabundo> I don't have repo versions
[23:21] <BUGabundo> of neither package
[23:21] <BUGabundo> pidgin from pidgin PPA
[23:21] <BUGabundo> and plugin pack from PPA
[23:21] <BUGabundo> our version is TOOO OLDDD
[23:22] <penguin42> hang on, I've just st up a basic Evolution setup
[23:23] <penguin42> nope, still seems happy
[23:23] <penguin42> I guess maybe you have to tempt the plugin into doing something in particular
[23:24] <BUGabundo> humm
[23:24] <BUGabundo> usually it crashs a few min after i have it running
[23:24] <BUGabundo> adding a new contact tends to trigger it
[23:24] <penguin42> when you receive mail or if a new buddy joins or something like that?
[23:24] <penguin42> on which side?
[23:24] <BUGabundo> please add<EMAIL_ADDRESS>XMPP
[23:24] <BUGabundo> I don't use evo for mail
[23:25] <BUGabundo> just contact sync on gmail and ADs
[23:25] <penguin42> in the config for the evolution plugin do you want me to tick the box for the sync?
[23:25] <BUGabundo> nope
[23:25] <BUGabundo> I had it default
[23:26] <BUGabundo> penguin42: nvm then
[23:26] <BUGabundo> thanks anyway
[23:26] <BUGabundo> I've disabled the plugin for now
[23:26] <BUGabundo> didn't even used it
[23:26] <penguin42> ok, I haven't actually got any jabber stuff set up at the moment on it anyway
[23:28]  * penguin42 does note there are a  string of debugs about dbus tooltip errors as I hover over buddies
[23:28] <bjsnider> DanaG, can you find any rygel documentation, like for instance how to start and configure it?
[23:28] <DanaG> I got it to start by running rygel-preferences
[23:28] <DanaG> and then view it with gupnp-av-cp
[23:29] <DanaG> ... but there's no renderer to connect it to / to connect to it.
[23:29] <bjsnider> i've got a upnp device here on the home lan
[23:31] <DanaG> About the only networked special devices of any sort I have: an airport express, and the roxio netflix thingy.
[23:32] <bjsnider> DanaG, install the raop plugin and you can stream to the airport express
[23:32] <DanaG> yeah, I tried that for curiosity; the 1-second lag made it a bit too irritating to use.  =þ
[23:33] <bjsnider> why is there a lag
[23:33] <bjsnider> is there a lag if it's wired?
[23:38] <DanaG> Hmm, I haven't tried it that way.
[23:38] <bjsnider> there's only one lan port on those things
[23:44] <DanaG> yeah.
[23:44] <DanaG> It also sucks that using it as wireless client disables the wired port.
[23:45] <DanaG> I mean, is it too much to ask, for them to bridge the damn thing?
[23:45] <DanaG> But nooooo, they actually electrically DISABLE the port... so it doesn't even create a link!
[23:47] <DanaG> s/no*/neeuuoou/
[23:47] <BUGabundo> DanaG: NM?
[23:47] <BUGabundo> you can bridgew
[23:47] <BUGabundo> took me 1 year to find that out
[23:47] <DanaG> No, I'm talking about the Airport Express.
[23:47] <DanaG> THAT thing won't do bridging.
[23:47] <BUGabundo> it just prefers wifi to other transports
[23:48] <DanaG> I wanted to use it to wireless connect an old desktop.
[23:50] <DanaG> Stupid fruit.
[23:51] <BUGabundo> ahahahh
[23:52] <bjsnider> DanaG, the renderer shows up when you run the rygel executable
[23:53] <bjsnider> /usr/bin/rygel
[23:55] <diverse_izzue> hey everyone. help! my root user disappeared - i cannot run sudo anymore! any ideas?
[23:56] <penguin42> go back a step
[23:56] <DanaG> I don't HAVE a renderer.  =þ
[23:56] <penguin42> diverse_izzue: What happens when you run sudo
[23:56] <DanaG> That's my issue... the gupnp-tools package is missing the thing.
[23:56] <diverse_izzue> sudo: unknown uid: 1000
[23:56] <BUGabundo> ooppss
[23:57] <penguin42> diverse_izzue: and if you type the command    id    what does it say?
[23:57] <diverse_izzue> when starting a graphical tool such as synaptic i get a popup saying "user root does not exist"
[23:57] <penguin42> diverse_izzue: Does the file /etc/passwd still exist?
[23:57] <diverse_izzue> uid=1000 gid=1000 groups=4,20,24,25,29,30,44,46,107,109,115,125,1000,1001
[23:58] <diverse_izzue> oh i figured out the problem... let me fetch my backup driver :-)


[10:58] <kwwii> andreasn: would you mind if I put the icon ideas you made into a bzr repo and launchpad page so that we people can start working on the new set?
[10:58] <andreasn> not at all
[10:59] <kwwii> cool, thanks :-)
[11:00] <andreasn> it is free software after all
[11:00] <kwwii> hehe, but I still don't want to piss you off :-)
[11:02] <andreasn> so, what is the plan?
[11:02] <andreasn> monochrome notification area stuff for hardy+1/gnome 2.24?
[11:03] <kwwii> yeah, that is what I would like to see happen
[11:03] <kwwii> guess I should talk to jimmac about this stuff
[11:04] <andreasn> probably yes, and also mizmo
[11:05] <andreasn> the idea have been bounced back and forth so many times its time someone take action :)
[11:06] <kwwii> you'll have to introduce me to mizmo
[11:08] <andreasn> she runs the fedora artwork stuff
[11:12] <kwwii> ahhaaa, right
[11:12] <kwwii> I wish I could have met her while I was in Boston
[11:17] <andreasn> I dont think she was at uds actually, she was attending to some wedding or something if I recall correctly
[11:19] <andreasn> did I miss that meeting btw? or is that coming up?
[11:20] <kwwii> well, one day we should all meet - it would be kinda interesting to get jimmac, myself, mizmo, you and a couple other in one room for a day or two
[11:20] <kwwii> the next UDS, you mean? it will be in prague in may
[11:20] <kwwii> ahhh, you mean the artwork meeting
[11:20] <kwwii> nope, haven't had one yet
[11:21] <kwwii> since nobody really seems interested I put it off
[11:22] <andreasn> ah
[11:22] <andreasn> I got some message that I was unsubscribed to the mailing list today
[11:22] <kwwii> i see little reason in talking to everyone when nobody does anything :-)
[11:22] <kwwii> hrm, that is freaky...I wonder why
[11:22] <andreasn> so I totally missed the whole discussion
[11:22] <kwwii> well, there really was no discussion about it
[11:22] <kwwii> I can forward you the emails if you want
[11:23] <andreasn> a bunch of us are planning to go to the Libre Graphics Meeting in Poland in May, perhaps it would be nice to have a brainstorm there
[11:25] <kwwii> that would be cool, I will be there as well
[11:26] <kwwii> we should probably set up a meeting before it starts :-)
[11:27] <andreasn> indeed
[16:14] <thorwil> kwwii: hi! i don't know if and what role you played, but now we have the OK to use the bugs/brainstorm artwork as it is :)
[16:15] <Tm_T> :)
[16:15] <kwwii> thorwil: good to hear that :-)
[16:16] <kwwii> I just asked the right questions of the right people
[16:16] <thorwil> kwwii: cool, thanks!
[16:16] <kwwii> henrik is not used to dealing with art stuff so when someone says something to him he takes it as-is, I on the other hand tend to open my mouth
[16:16] <kwwii> :p
[16:17] <thorwil> heh
[16:30] <thorwil> today i came across http://www.ubuntu-forum.de/
[16:31] <thorwil> now there you can see a truly problematic use of the logo ;)
[16:56] <_MMA_> It would at least be better if they had the copyright notices at the bottom.
[17:06] <thorwil> _MMA_: are you aware the the top and bottom strokes of the studio logo are not symmetrical?
[17:06] <_MMA_> thorwil: One of the 3 outer pills?
[17:07] <_MMA_> In what way? Not the same shape or alignment?
[17:07] <thorwil> _MMA_: yes. right side / top and bottom
[17:07] <_MMA_> Ok. Fix if you like and send back.
[17:07] <thorwil> _MMA_: distance to the center. in fact both do not share their center with the inner circle
[17:08] <thorwil> _MMA_: will do
[17:08]  * thorwil sometimes misses CAD-like abilities in inkscape
[17:08] <_MMA_> :P
[17:09] <thorwil> but someone was not paying attention here
[17:39] <nothlit> `/26
[17:40]  * kwwii reports _MMA_ to the branding police
[17:40] <kwwii> here is an interesting way to get hardy on a ppc machine....
[17:41] <kwwii> it had dapper on it, and I have just kept dist upgrading
[17:41]  * _MMA_ wouldnt put Hardy on anything but a test box atm.
[17:41] <kwwii> I'm at Gutsy - no stopping me now!
[17:41] <_MMA_> "P
[17:41] <_MMA_> :P
[17:42] <kwwii> I am amazed that it actually worked so well
[17:44] <kwwii> btw...about 10 people have pinged me with how much they like the feta kuli wallpaper
[17:45] <_MMA_> :P
[17:45] <thorwil> it seems to be very polarizing
[17:45]  * _MMA_ goes to find 20 people who hate it.
[17:46]  * thorwil -> food
[17:48] <kwwii> _MMA_: just post an obnoxious thread on the forum, they will respond in turn
[17:49] <_MMA_> Im sure someone has beat me to it. :P
[17:57] <kwwii> :p
[18:29] <thorwil> _MMA_: oh, you might want to move the o of studio a bit to the left. bad kerning
[18:30] <_MMA_> k
[19:55] <_MMA_> kwwii: But I'm damn sure you *can* set those icons in a theme. So you could at least throw 'em in Human somewhere to override the defaults.
[20:03] <kwwii> _MMA_: you might have a point
[20:03] <kwwii> I'll try that first
[20:03] <_MMA_> k