[00:36] <bazhang> kernel 4.6? is that like a zebra kernel or something
[22:19] <enchi> Why was I banned from #ubuntu-offtopic?
[22:32] <k1l> enchi: hi. i am not an op there and dont have a full backlog, but the bantracker says the ban was for your repeated foul language. ikonia made the ban but he is not online right now. i suppose you come back somewhat later when he or another op is available.
[22:42] <elky> enchi: we might be convinced to let you back in if you can manage to not blatently bait trouble with bad language again.
[22:46] <enchi> Sorry, an op had told me that talking about that programming language was acceptable
[22:46] <enchi> I've seen people mention it when it wasn't relevant beore
[22:47] <enchi> before*
[22:47] <enchi> So I didn't realise it would be an issue
[22:48] <elky> In a context where you were warned against swearing pretty much every single day, and given more chances that i have hairs on my head, it was merely the straw that broke the camel's back. Do you comprehend that?
[22:50] <wxl> i think ideally, you would just refrain from using inappropriate language, regardless of the context. you know, just in case.
[22:50] <wxl> that esoteric programming language has got SUCH a trolly name.
[22:51] <dax> hrm, so, my opinion...
[22:51] <dax> mentioning brainfuck in #ubuntu-offtopic has been deemed fine before when it's done to, you know, discuss brainfuck
[22:51] <dax> it's like the prototypical example of our Guidelines being more nuanced than "HURR DURR NO SWEARING EVER"
[22:52] <dax> but clearly using it to avoid our ban on actual cussing would be bad
[22:52] <wxl> i can accept that, but at the same time, it certainly could be muted a bit
[22:52] <dax> and the thing you got banned for was halfway in between those two scenarios
[22:52] <elky> yeah, the logs clearly demonstrate a "lol ima try get away with LOOPHOLE"
[22:52] <dax> which would usually lead to "maybe we shouldn't have banned for borderline", but there's the additional complication of previous operator interaction
[22:53] <wxl> e.g. brainf**k. i mean, at that point, it at least shows some reasonable attempt to try to be considered
[22:53] <dax> elky: i read it (when i was there at the time, and now) as making fun of OERIAS being a prat
[22:53] <wxl> s/ered/erate/
[22:53] <elky> wxl: nah, obfuscated language is the same thing, only intended to get around word filters and thus LOOPHOLE
[22:53] <dax> it's a complicated situation, and it's the sort of thing that should have provoked a PM conversation, and if it didn't then then we should probably have a conversation now instead, and so we are
[22:54] <elky> i don' like people exploiting loopholes.
[22:54] <dax> and if he'd said, with my apologies for the example, "go brainfuck yourself", i would see your point much more clearly
[22:54] <dax> but he was replying to someone else being an idiot about bitchx
[22:55] <wxl> admittedly, it was an isolated example. there was not a lot of conversation pre/proceeding it
[22:55] <wxl> that PARTICULAR issue, that is
[22:57] <wxl> the fact that there's additional history doesn't help much.
[22:57] <elky> dax: i'm not convinced it was making fun of oerias so much as joining in for the meme/troll.
[22:57] <dax> wxl: agreed
[22:57] <wxl> elky: looking at the logs, that's my take on it as well.
[22:58] <elky> and that's based on my previous interactions with enchi
[22:58] <elky> since that's a thing enchi does frequently
[22:58] <wxl> yep, and that's clear looking back through the logs.
[22:58] <dax> ps i just noticed that we seem to have jumbled up -ops and -ops-team
[22:58] <dax> so you know, hi enchi
[22:58] <wxl> hahahahah
[23:00] <elky> as i said, i'm willing to lift the ban if there can be assurance that past behaviours will not continue to be embraced, as people are frankly very very bored of them.
[23:01] <dax> works for me
[23:01] <dax> /afk
[23:01] <wxl> i would concur with that as well.
[23:01] <wxl> perhaps this would be a good time for enchi to have a refresher on the guidelines and the CoC
[23:02] <enchi> Sure, what's the link?
[23:02] <wxl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines
[23:02] <enchi> Hi dax :<
[23:02] <enchi> Thanks
[23:03] <wxl> might be good to pay attention to the section "Don't be annoying"
[23:05] <enchi> Yes, I see it says not to continue misbehaving after you've been asked to stop. Like I said I didn't realise I was misbehaving but I'll do my best
[23:08] <dax> and now you know and knowing is half the battle [23:24] <elky> enchi: we understand that that particular topic was ambiguous, but surely you're aware of when you're doing trolly things or jumping on a "lets be annoying" bandwagon.
[23:26] <enchi> I don't usually think before I say things
[23:27] <dax> that may be worth practicing
[23:29] <elky> do you think you can put some extra effort into doing that?
[23:30] <elky> i know i personally have the urge to say trolly annoying stuff in the channel often but i can stop myself because i think before i hit enter.
[23:35] <enchi> I can certainly try. The problem with not thinking is that I don't think to think if you know what I mean


 Ok
 RIP Unity :-)
 O.O
[17:49] <wxl> heh, yep. maybe even RIP Mir!
 Why?
[17:50] <wxl> cuz why would they need it at that point? they can just hop on the Wayland bandwagon.
 https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/04/05/growing-ubuntu-for-cloud-and-iot-rather-than-phone-and-convergence/
 Simon was faster :-)
[17:51] <acheronuk> quote: mhall on telegram "unless someone takes over Unity 8 and Mir, it essentially means the end for those projects"
 Mostly RIP all desktop specific components
[17:51] <wxl> yes!
 Indicator and all
[17:51] <wxl> soooooo is "Ubuntu GNOME" going to end then?
 I've been talking to Mark himself on Telegram
 OMG
 The Ubuntu GNOME and Ubuntu main projects are merging
[17:51] <wxl> .@tsimonq2 tell me about wayland!!!
 I just asked him about Mir. No response yet.
 so RIP ubuntu gnome too :-)
[17:52] <wxl> yep that too
 RIP everything!
 Well not RIP, it's just being merged
[17:52] <wxl> i'm gonna rip you, rafael
 That the polical way to say it :-)
 O.O
 That sounds gay! .__.
[17:53] <wxl> ever thing that may have been the intention? :)
 Yer, actually LOL
 Hahahahahaha
 So I, using the Ubuntu gnome desktop now, am the future?!
 ^^
 No, a traitor
 LOL
 :-P
 Hahahahahaha lol
[17:55] <wxl> hahahah
[17:55] <wxl> what it means is, for once, we'll all be working on the same basic thing
 In my defense, i have Lubuntu VMised
[17:56] <wxl> fail
 Except for Snaps. We'll still be fragmented as all hell in that regard
 We should use one package type
 ONE
 /me joins the .deb camp
[17:57] <wxl> well we might be forced to :O
 It's our main weakness
 I wonder what would happen if we went to Canonical's office with signs and protested XD
 (kidding)
 Why ? In fact, it's kind of good news :-)
 Or we could to to canonical building and eat a pizza. The restaurant at the first floor is amazing .__.
[17:59] <wxl> julien: he means protest snaps
 Wait... YOU'VE BEEN THERE?!?
 Except for my french dev friends which work hours on unity
 What is snap ? I only know .deb ;-)
[18:00] <wxl> it seems that some canonical employees have been reassigned to so-called snap advocacy so they're pushing hard on it
 Emmm yes? It's my birthplace, remember? I go every time i have the chance
[18:00] <wxl> simon, it's only too bad rafael doesn't speak the language anymore XD
 I installed a snap once. It failed 😂
 I still remember PIZZA 😍
 Wait, that's Italian...
[18:01] <wxl> i've only used them in core and had no problem
 Bah. Let's go protest! Lol
 I think it's a dead end, the battle is lost, the real standart is android packaging for apps
 Yes. I'm calling for a pepperoni pizza.
 But android itself isn't good at all.
[18:02] <wxl> android packaging? :O
[18:02] <wxl> i assume you mean .apk?
 Yes, well, apps which are distributed for Android
 @julienlavergne Snaps are Canonical's new fancy bloated proprietary-as-in-lack-of-collaboration packaging format. :P
 Wait, so if we use Gnone3, Wayland, and we implement flatpak... Aren't we using Fedora?!
 Remenber, I'm french and on phone, it's difficult :-)
[18:04] <wxl> remember, rafael, a linux distro is entirely defined by its community
[18:04] <wxl> (so, no)
 Let's merge too!
 Orgy!
[18:05] <wxl> that sounds gay
 Again, intention embedded
 .__.
[18:05] <wxl> embedded sounds gay too
 LOL
 Inserted?
[18:05] <wxl> gay
 if you remove the google stuff, it's not so bad (my Fairphone like it :-))
 Oh, we can protest at LFNW by NOT talking about Snaps to anyone unless they ask. :P
 I don't need a single bit of Google. I don't use it.
[18:07] <wxl> i guess i don't see any significant value to apks except for their widespread usage. i'm not sure we'd have the same flexibility as we do with debs.
[18:07] <wxl> i've been ridding myself of google slowly
 Me too.
[18:07] <wxl> once i discovered using an imap client caused an ip leak, that was enough
[18:07] <wxl> webrtc enabled by default kind of sucks, too
[18:07] <wxl> (which is another form of ip leak)
 That's the point, it's widespread
[18:08] <wxl> i guess i'd need to explore it further
 Even Microsoft have difficulties to make apps for windows phone ...
 But there's Telegram for that now ;}
 Windows Phone project has been closed
[19:17] <wxl> i guess that explains a lot. if microsoft is getting out of the convergence game, there's no reason to bother
 but Samsung presented their S8 with "convergence". it runs On a monitor in desktop mode
 also, there's an Android fork (can't recall its name) that works in multi-window, taskbar, etc. everybody's tempted on it
[19:19] <wxl> well there you go. samsung clearly is providing competition and they OWN the non-iOS market, so again, why bother?
[19:19] <wxl> tizen?
 😞
 but Ubuntu Touch is beautiful
[19:20] <wxl> tizen pass, actually, i think
[19:21] <wxl> unfortunatelly, it's also massively insecure https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/04/samsungs-tizen-is-riddled-with-security-flaws-amateurishly-written/
 no, not Tizen, a Chrome-thing
 also, there're ChromeOS Images that run in x86 and amd64 machines now (desktop mode too)
[19:26] <wxl> well that's what chromebooks are aren't they?
 yup, normal laptops, more or less
[19:28] <lyn||ian> I really wonder what this means for say ubiquity
[19:28] <wxl> it's sad. my friend warned me there was little hope of surviving in the mobile market
[19:28] <wxl> should say nothing, really
[19:29] <wxl> did you make the telegram public, simon?
 you can use t.me urls
[19:30] <wxl> that's what i intend
[19:31] <wxl> hey @tsimonq2 make the telegram public
[19:31] <wxl> also make us all admins @tsimonq2
 @tsimonq2 do it! do it! do it! do it! do it! do it! do it! do it!
 omg, I just realised you can expand names,  @wxl23
 ...using TAB key
[19:32] <wxl> unfortunately @vikingredwolf on this end you can't see the actual telegram username. it's.. dumb.
[19:32] <wxl> i need to file a bug
 yup, the bridge isn't "fully" working
[19:33] <wxl> cuz you mean it doesn't show images?
 no
[19:33] <wxl> what do you mean then?
 can you see diz?
[19:33] <wxl> yep
[19:33] <wxl> all that gay talk from before was registered on our public channel XD
 O.O
 /me changes Lubuntu official wallpaper into pink
[19:35] <lyn||ian> yay
 /me adds Britney as startup sound
[19:35] <wxl> ewwww
 "oops I did it again" mainly
[19:35]  * lyn||ian ends up thinking about #ubuntu-release oh wait you meant britney spears eww
 yer XD
[19:39] <wxl> yeah that's just offensive
 .__.
[19:41] <wxl> you know i have no idea why it shows you as <RedWolf> here. based on others, it should show <Rafael>
 no, there's no such Rafael in my Telegram account
[19:41] <wxl> oh ok that explains it
[19:42] <wxl> mus tbe an address book thing over here
 how does it show?

 good :)
 OMG! I just realised that Canonical will drop all the QML technology
[20:22] <wxl> oh yeah
[20:22] <wxl> they'll be kind of getting rid of Qt
 yes! back to pure GTK
 this means that a Lubuntu going to Qt/QML just for Unity compatibility shouldn't be a goal at all
[20:23] <wxl> yeah no not at all
[20:23] <wxl> it would be because GTK sucks XD
 GTK3 is better
 Oh.
[20:24] <wxl> better
[20:24] <wxl> not good
 Qt is WAY better :P
 Amirite?
[20:24] <wxl> hey @tsimonq2 is it public?
 I confess I never liked Qt
[20:24] <lyn||ian> uh probably not all yes
 @wxl23 hm?
[20:24] <wxl> make the telegram group public
 walter, prepare your body for GTK4 ;)
 (fully integrated with Wayland)
 oh
 @wxl23 What happens when you make a Telegram group a supergroup?
 it's a group not a channel
 boooooo
 Changing to supergroup here if that's OK with you, @wxl23
[20:29] <wxl> unfortunately i don't think that will do it :(
 what's the difference?
[20:30] <wxl> it's ok with me @tsimonq2 if you can get a public short link but i can't freaking figure it out
[20:30] <Unit193> wxl: You guys switching to sddm?
[20:31] <wxl> Unit193: presently, no. why?
[20:31] <Unit193> Of course not now, but with LXQt.
[20:31] <lyn||ian> Unit193, is upstream default
[20:54] <tsimonq2> Unit193: I think so.
[20:54] <tsimonq2> Unit193: Unless we're told otherwise, yes.
[20:55] <tsimonq2> Unit193: And by "told", I mean an overwhelming response from the community or the TB or something like that.
[20:56] <lyn||ian> isn't kubuntu using sddm now
[20:56] <tsimonq2> Yes, they are.
[20:59] <tsimonq2> wxl: Do you have matterbridge.toml open on your end?
[21:00] <wxl> tsimonq2: not anymore
[21:01] <wxl> maybe you're using webhooks to get updates???
[21:01] <tsimonq2> wxl: Bah just let me do
 @wxl23 READ https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/blob/master/matterbridge.toml.sample#L615
 Use your freaking eyes next time! :P
 i read that diphead
 i read that diphead
 read that!
[21:05] <tsimonq2> wxl: HEY
 HEY
 Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
[21:06] <wxl> how did you get the chat id? probably because you have direct access to the bot..
[21:06] <tsimonq2> Nope.
[21:06] <tsimonq2> wxl: All it needed was the BOT id. The bot has access to the messages, therefore it shows up in the bot's read-only API thing.
[21:07] <wxl> except the bot id starts with a 3, not the -1 you are using
[21:07] <wxl> the chat id is always a large negative number.
[21:08] <wxl> if you use the `getMe` method you can see the bot id, which is part of the token. not the same.
[21:08] <tsimonq2> No. That's not what you need. You need the bot ID, then going to that HTTP page I PMed you, associated with each message is the channel ID the message came from.
[21:08] <tsimonq2> Let me prove it to you. One sec.
[21:09] <tsimonq2> There, I intentionally Ctrl + C'ed out.
[21:09] <wxl> yeah i was using curl calls
[21:09] <tsimonq2> wxl: Look at that link I PMed you;
[21:09] <tsimonq2> {"ok":true,"result":[{"update_id":199811973,
[21:09] <wxl> oh WEIRD
[21:09] <tsimonq2> "message":{"message_id":50,"from":{"id":209628372,"first_name":"Simon","last_name":"Quigley","username":"tsimonq2"},"chat":{"id":-1001092992674,"title":"Lubuntu Devel","type":"supergroup"},"date":1491426548,"text":"Hai"}}]}
[21:09] <wxl> why does it not work when it's connected?
[21:09] <tsimonq2> The ID is right there. See it?
[21:09] <tsimonq2> wxl: Because when it's connected, it removes the messages from there.
[21:10] <wxl> well that's freaking annoying. didn't see that documented anywhere
[21:10] <tsimonq2> wxl: Ok, I'll turn it back on now. Watch that screen.
 Hai
[21:10] <tsimonq2> wxl: I know, that took me about an hour of messing around to figure out. ;)
[21:10] <wxl> so dumb
[21:10] <tsimonq2> I know. Really dumb.
[21:10] <wxl> now let's see if i can leverage the api to get the username
[21:11] <tsimonq2> Please do.
[21:11] <tsimonq2> Then if you recompile it, we can run that then. :)
[21:11] <wxl> because then we can use @username for chat_id and even if it changes it's no big deal
[21:11] <tsimonq2> Yep yep.
[21:11] <wxl> s/recompile/edit/
[21:11] <tsimonq2> No, there's a binary.
[21:12] <wxl> yeah but we shouldn't need to recompile it
[21:12] <wxl> unless it's hardcoded to be a freaking integer
[21:12] <tsimonq2> Ok, you'll see when you try to edit it. :P
[21:13] <tsimonq2> wxl: If you wish, I can stop the bot for a minute to get #lubuntu and #lubuntu-offtopic bots as well?
[21:14] <wxl> sure
[21:14] <wxl> it does not have a username
[21:14] <tsimonq2> Ok, well I'm INTENTIONALLY Ctrl + C'ing this then. One sec.
[21:14] <wxl> {"ok":true,"result":{"id":-1001092992674,"title":"Lubuntu Devel","type":"supergroup"}}
[21:15] <wxl> looking at https://core.telegram.org/bots/api#chat it would have username if it was a thing
[21:22] <tsimonq2> This is also a test.
[22:02] <tsimonq2> Test.
[22:02] <tsimonq2> Oh bah.
 Now maybe?
[22:04] <tsimonq2> Good.


[04:34] (cjwatson/#ubuntu-installer) tepsipakki: you might be interested to hear that I think I've fixed that old pkgsel hand
[04:34] (cjwatson/#ubuntu-installer) hang
[04:41] <superm1> evand, over the weekend i caught some unfortunate ramifications of cjwatson's changes on the mythbuntu files to True/False from "yes"/"no".  I just pushed up the resolutions to it.  Would you be able to merge them back in?
[04:49] <evand> superm1: those were my changes
[04:49] <evand> but I shall take a look momentarily
[04:51] <superm1> oh, i didn't look at the parent for it closely
[04:52] <superm1> well irregardless, i had to make one minor change to filteredcommand.py, but it shouldn't break anything else.
[04:54] <evand> yes, I'm looking at that now.  Why wouldn't you want the data to be UTF-8 encoded?
[04:55] <cjwatson> blink, please be careful messing with the UTF-8 stuff there :)
[04:55] <evand> indeed
[04:55] <cjwatson> that's the product of a lot of tedious bug-fixing related to Kubuntu
[04:55] <cjwatson> (Qt is insanely picky about encoding)
[04:55] <superm1> well if its bool
[04:55] <superm1> you can't UTF-8 encode it
[04:56] <evand> superm1: you can only preseed strings
[04:56] <cjwatson> you should turn it into a string
[04:56] <cjwatson> snap
[04:56] <superm1> well that was the original thing I had with the "yes"/"no", which was because i thought you could only preseed strings
[04:57] <cjwatson> internally in python stuff should be True/False
[04:57] <superm1> things appear to work correctly with the bool though
[04:57] <superm1> with that change on filteredcommand.py
[04:57] <cjwatson> when interacting with debconf, you should turn it into "true"/"false" (debconf booleans) or whatever else is appropriate
[04:58] <cjwatson> where's this branch?
[04:58] <superm1> one sec i'll grab a link
[04:59] <superm1> here is the LP page: https://code.launchpad.net/~mythbuntu/mythbuntu/ubiquity
[05:00] <cjwatson> oh, that's right, it's not flagged as a branch of ubiquity so it doesn't show up on code.lp.net/ubiquity
[05:00] <superm1> oh, how do i flag it as a branch of ubiquity?
[05:00] <evand> superm1: I'd prefer to avoid modifying the core bits of Ubiquity when unnecessary.  Changing your code to preseed "true" in the case of True, and "false" in the case of False should be relatively straightforward anyway.
[05:01] <superm1> will debconf convert a string that is "true" to a boolean True then?
[05:01] <cjwatson> btw, you should make your own changes in separate commits to merges
[05:01] <cjwatson> browsing history is painful when you violate that rule
[05:02] <superm1> i'll make sure to do that in the future
[05:02] <cjwatson> I agree with evand - I think that change is a mistake and it's not how the rest of ubiquity does it
[05:02] <cjwatson> no, debconf won't convert it, frequent idioms are things like value = (db.get("foo/bar") == "true")
[05:03] <cjwatson> (the confmodule doesn't really know the type, you see)
[05:03] <superm1> right
[05:03] <cjwatson> and nor does filteredcommand for that matter, at least not without inefficiency
[05:03] <superm1> well is the only reason that boolean types couldn't be preseeded because of that UTF-8 encoding?
[05:04] <superm1> or is there more to that
[05:04] <cjwatson> there's more to it
[05:04] <evand> superm1: debconf doesn't understand datatypes, just plain old strings.
[05:04] <cjwatson> True won't be automatically converted to "true" by anything
[05:04] <cjwatson> I think I would say rather that there is no mapping from Python data types to debconf data types other than strings.
[05:05] <cjwatson> other than via strings
[05:05] <superm1> which would explain why there was a difference for True/true by what debconf got
[05:05] <cjwatson> and since boolean is the only case where there could even really be a convenient mapping, it's not really worth the infrastructure it would take to do it right
[05:05] <superm1> when i thought there was a bool "datatype"
[05:06] <cjwatson> at the level of language bindings ("confmodules"), type isn't known unless you do another round trip to the debconf frontend to ask it
[05:06] <cjwatson> all it sees is <-- GET foo/bar --> 0 true
[05:06] <cjwatson> but foo/bar could be a string for all it knows ...
[05:06] <cjwatson> or select or whatever
[05:07] <superm1> right.  so the type described in a template is only used when you present the user the question
[05:07] <cjwatson> in order to find out the type you need to do METAGET foo/bar Type
[05:07] <superm1> that makes more sense
[05:07] <cjwatson> pretty much, yeah
[05:08] <cjwatson> ubiquity looks up the type when it needs to do "frontend-like" logic
[05:08] <cjwatson> so for instance in the Partman component it looks up the question type and has default handling for boolean questions that get asked
[05:08] <cjwatson> (pop up dialog with go back / continue buttons)
[05:09] <cjwatson> but note that to get the answer back it just does:
[05:09] <cjwatson>             if answer:
[05:09] <cjwatson>                 self.preseed(question, 'true')
[05:09] <cjwatson>             else:
[05:09] <cjwatson>                 self.preseed(question, 'false')
[05:09] <superm1> which makes more sense for that area
[05:09] <cjwatson> now, if you want that to be more convenient, I wouldn't object to a preseed_boolean method in filteredcommand
[05:09] <cjwatson> I think that would probably make sense
[05:10] <superm1> what else would need to be done to enable that preseed_boolean method to work then?
[05:10] <cjwatson> nothing, just use it
[05:10] <cjwatson> so instead of the above:
[05:10] <cjwatson>             self.preseed_boolean(question, answer)
[05:10] <superm1> and then the True/False are used and stored to debconf
[05:10] <cjwatson> would just be a convenience wrapper
[05:11] <superm1> well that's a pretty easy change for me to make then
[05:11] <cjwatson> it would turn its argument into 'true' or 'false' as appropriate and preseed that
[05:11] <superm1> well to True/False, not 'true'/'false' though
[05:11] <cjwatson> no]
[05:11] <cjwatson> that would be wrong
[05:12] <superm1> oh you mean in the wrapper, it should preseed the string 'true' or 'false'
[05:12] <evand> correct
[05:12] <superm1> gotcha.   that sounds like a good consensus to settle upon.
[05:12] <evand> hrm, the gobuntu community grew from nothing to being more active than plenty of other MLs pretty quickly.
[05:13] <cjwatson> similarly a value_boolean method would be OK to translate in the other direction, if there's call for it
[05:13] <superm1> i'll ping you  guys later tonight or tomorrow when i rework it and test it
[05:13] <evand> thanks superm1
[05:13] <cjwatson> there are no other users for that as yet though
[05:14] <cjwatson> correction, one other potential user
[05:14] <cjwatson> (summary.py, the popcon bit)
[06:00] <evand> wow...so I'm banging my head against a wall trying to figure out why the interface never shows any of the pages when using --automatic mode and testing its interaction with my graceful page skipping work.  And then it hits me.  I answered all of the questions.