[00:26] <robertzaccour>  whats the difference between low latency and realtime kernel? which would be better to pick for audio/video editing? should I choose both?
[00:27] <holstein> robertzaccour: what OS are you using?
[00:27] <holstein> 10.04?
[00:27] <holstein> 10.10?
[00:27] <ailo> robertzaccour: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/RealTimeKernel
[00:27] <holstein> i usually suggest using the -generic one
[00:27] <robertzaccour> holstein, Ubuntu
[00:27] <holstein> and *if* you need lower latency
[00:27] <holstein> move on to the -lowlatency
[00:27] <holstein> and if thats not working for your needs for some reason
[00:28] <holstein> try the -realtime one
[00:28] <holstein> robertzaccour: what version of ubuntu
[00:28] <holstein> the generic kernel is getting better and better
[00:28] <robertzaccour> holstein 10.10 64 bit
[00:28] <holstein> each release :)
[00:28] <holstein> IF you're not doing real time effects processing
[00:29] <holstein> OR using a software synthesizer live
[00:29] <robertzaccour> would realtime kernel be best overall?
[00:29] <holstein> you wont really take advantage of what a lower latency kernel will provide
[00:29] <robertzaccour> in the past i've had audio/video sync issues and a bit of lag
[00:29] <holstein> robertzaccour: generic would be best overall
[00:29] <holstein> for your machine in general
[00:29] <robertzaccour> holstein, generic seems to be a problem from my experience
[00:30] <ailo> Consider the realtime kernel experiemental, and should only be used if nothing else works
[00:30] <holstein> robertzaccour: where is the 'lag' ?
[00:30] <robertzaccour> holstein, a little bit in video screen capture with webcam open, especially with normal effects on
[00:30] <holstein> right
[00:30] <holstein> robertzaccour: that shouldnt matter
[00:30] <robertzaccour> holstein, i just need to know which kernel would most likely fix my problem here
[00:30] <holstein> you'll fire up whatever you want to use
[00:31] <holstein> and it will create a file
[00:31] <holstein> with audio and video
[00:31] <robertzaccour> but which kernel will most likely fix my sync issues here?
[00:31] <holstein> and if it takes 2ms to grab that data and write it
[00:31] <robertzaccour> realtime? low-latency?
[00:31] <holstein> you wont know the difference
[00:31] <holstein> between 2 and 60ms
[00:31] <holstein> robertzaccour: i would say the proper software will fix the sync
[00:31] <ailo> robertzaccour: What program are you using? Do you know what is causing the sync issues?
[00:31] <holstein> not the kernel
[00:32] <holstein> robertzaccour: are you using JACK ?
[00:32] <robertzaccour> ailo, I have cheese open while using gtk-recordMyDesktop
[00:32] <robertzaccour> holstein, never used jack
[00:32] <holstein> yeah, chees is not going to do it
[00:32] <holstein> cheese is for kids i think
[00:32] <holstein> not for what you're looking for
[00:32] <robertzaccour> holstein, would one of these kernels possibly fix it?
[00:32] <holstein> nope
[00:33] <robertzaccour> holstein, so no chance
[00:33] <holstein> feel free to test it
[00:33] <holstein> but, if you think you need lower latency
[00:33] <holstein> you should be using JACK
[00:33] <holstein> to fully utilize that
[00:33] <robertzaccour> what does jack do?
[00:33] <holstein> quite a bit
[00:34] <holstein> allows interconnectivity for one thing
[00:34] <holstein> robertzaccour: let me give you a scenario
[00:34] <holstein> i have a stereo audio track
[00:34] <holstein> and i want to add a track to it
[00:35] <holstein> the musician is listening along to the stereo track
[00:35] <holstein> and playing along
[00:35] <holstein> the time it takes the computer to create that sound
[00:35] <holstein> lets say
[00:35] <holstein> that 20ms
[00:35] <holstein> THEN the time it takes the computer to record the new audio
[00:35] <holstein> thats going to be 20ms as well
[00:35] <robertzaccour> my issue is when recording my desktop with cheese and audio recorded after about 4 minuts the audio and video go out of sync and it gets worse the longer the recording
[00:35] <holstein> thats means the new audio COULD be 20ms later
[00:36] <holstein> or 40ms later
[00:36] <holstein> this will happen immediately
[00:36] <holstein> and not after 4 minutes
[00:36] <holstein> you dont have latency issues
[00:36] <holstein> you have cheese issues
[00:36] <holstein> record my desktop is JACK capable
[00:36] <robertzaccour> holstein, so what do you recommend?
[00:36] <holstein> and VLC is the tool to use for the cam
[00:37] <robertzaccour> holstein, so you recommend vlc instead of cheese?
[00:37] <holstein> even using VLC for your needs now might work
[00:37] <robertzaccour> so cheese is the problem?
[00:37] <holstein> its an issue of frame rates too i think
[00:37] <holstein> robertzaccour: well, im speculating
[00:37] <robertzaccour> 30fps
[00:37] <holstein> but cheese is not a professional tool
[00:37] <robertzaccour> thanks i will try vlc
[00:37] <holstein> doesnt claim to be
[00:38] <robertzaccour> seems almost all the buntu users use cheese though haha
[00:38] <holstein> you can mess around with the rates at which the audio and video are 'grabbed'
[00:38] <robertzaccour> holstein, whats a "professional" webcam application? anything of logitech software quality?
[00:38] <holstein> in theory
[00:38] <ailo> robertzaccour: Doesn't seem like you need lower latency anyway, so I would stick to the -generic kernel.
[00:38] <holstein> the video writes a little more or less data
[00:38] <holstein> and they get out of sync
[00:38] <ailo> May be that -lowlatency can be more reliable.
[00:39] <ailo> But -lowlatency will not fix sync issues.
[00:39] <robertzaccour> oh ok
[00:39] <holstein> im not sure about 'logitech software'
[00:39] <holstein> i might look into vitrualdub
[00:39] <holstein> pitivi
[00:39] <holstein> one of the big video programs in linux
[00:39] <robertzaccour> pitivi opens the webcams too?
[00:40]  * holstein shrugs
[00:40] <holstein> VLC does
[00:41] <holstein> i used to have sync issues when i was trying to copy some things from VHS to DVD
[00:41] <holstein> back on windows
[00:41] <holstein> virtualdub is what i ended up using
[00:42] <holstein> stayed in sync better
[00:42] <holstein> not sure why
[00:42] <holstein> when i was googling around back then
[00:42] <holstein> i found this to be a common problem
[00:43] <holstein> i read that major networks pay to have things synced up afterwards
[00:43] <holstein> in a lot of cases
[00:43] <robertzaccour> what did you do with virtualdub?
[00:43] <holstein> and i have seen out of sync
[00:43] <holstein> on TV
[00:43] <robertzaccour> oh ok
[00:43] <holstein> robertzaccour: i grabbed some VHS's
[00:43] <holstein> with vitualdub
[00:44] <holstein> virtualdub*
[00:45] <robertzaccour> i see
[00:45] <holstein> test what you want kernel-wise
[00:45] <robertzaccour> besides vlc what else is good for webcam display?
[00:45] <holstein> but thats not the issue
[00:45] <holstein> im not sure
[00:46] <holstein> i mostly focus on audio
[00:46] <robertzaccour> and not guvcview thats worse than cheese haha
[00:47] <holstein> you can try cheese and mess around with the frame rates
[00:47] <holstein> and the bit rates of the audio
[00:47] <holstein> fiddly though
[00:49] <robertzaccour> whoa holy crap my screencasting is crippled with normal compiz on
[00:50] <holstein> i bet
[00:50] <robertzaccour> in windows screencasting was perfect, full aero and all
[00:50] <holstein> ive been fine with recordmydesktop-gtk
[00:50] <robertzaccour> and canonical is basing their next UI on compiz what a joke imo lol
[00:51] <holstein> nope
[00:51] <robertzaccour> holstein, with compiz on?
[00:51] <holstein> its unity
[00:51] <robertzaccour> i know
[00:51] <robertzaccour> unity is built on compiz right?
[00:51] <holstein> with a 2d version now
[00:51] <robertzaccour> but there's also 2D unity
[00:51] <robertzaccour> yeah
[00:51] <holstein> i think that was a good call
[00:51] <robertzaccour> if i use untiy it will be 2d
[00:51] <robertzaccour> they're not doin the 3d unity? good whew
[00:51] <holstein> i dont remember if i had compiz on or not
[00:52] <holstein> with recordmydesktop
[00:52] <holstein> i dont remember it being an issue
[00:52] <holstein> so it was probably on
[00:52] <holstein> you can always dual boot
[00:53] <holstein> or run one or the other in virtualbox
[00:53] <holstein> although, the pro audio software really doesnt work well in VM
[00:58] <robertzaccour> i'm recording with vlc open instead of cheese now
[00:58] <robertzaccour> not much luck with cheese and guvcview
[01:03] <robertzaccour> I'm gonna install Xubuntu because Xfce themes better than Gnome from my experience
[01:04] <robertzaccour> would prefer gnome if it weren't for compiz issues with screen capturing
[01:04] <holstein> just install XFCE
[01:04] <robertzaccour> I wonder if using compositor in Xfce will mess stuff up
[01:04] <holstein> should
[01:04] <holstein> probably more relating to your graphics card/drivers
[01:04] <holstein> than compiz
[01:04] <robertzaccour> holstein, I like the matching load up screen though, and don't wanna spend a lot of time deleting stuff I don't need
[01:05] <holstein> you can sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop
[01:05] <robertzaccour> holstein, but compiz makes it a lot worse than when turned off
[01:05] <holstein> and choose between them
[01:05] <holstein> gnome or XFCE
[01:05] <holstein> at login
[01:05] <robertzaccour> holstein, how do i get the load up screen for xubuntu?
[01:05] <holstein> OR just sudo apt-get install xfce
[01:06] <holstein> this talks about that
[01:06] <holstein> http://tuxicity.wordpress.com/2007/01/30/howto-switch-from-ubuntu-to-kubuntu-or-xubuntu-or-edubuntu-or-vice-versa-610-edgy/
[01:06] <holstein> at the bottom
[01:07] <holstein> sudo dpkg-reconfigure gdm
[01:07] <holstein> i usually just roll with gdm
[01:33] <robertzaccour> back
[01:33] <robertzaccour> talkin to yall while i test my stuff here
[01:33] <robertzaccour> saying what i type to very sync quality
[01:33] <holstein> i see
[01:34] <robertzaccour> i wish screencasting was as smooth in linux as windows
[01:35] <robertzaccour> i also wish for the official yahoo messenger haha
[01:35] <holstein> http://wootangent.net/category/music/tutorials/
[01:35] <holstein> here is a friends site
[01:35] <robertzaccour> oh btw vlc webcam display messes up gtk-recordMyDesktop
[01:35] <holstein> with a bunch of nice screencasts
[01:36] <holstein> you want to elaborate on 'messes up' ?
[01:36] <robertzaccour> it doesn't encode after and refuses to close until i xkill it and then i have to log out and back in to restore the theme
[01:36] <robertzaccour> the encode process sticks at 0. it freezes
[01:36] <holstein> robertzaccour: lets start at the beginning
[01:36] <holstein> what are you trying to do?
[01:37] <robertzaccour> oh nothin just testing out my recording
[01:37] <holstein> im not clear on what you need the webcam for
[01:37] <robertzaccour> holstein, recording
[01:37] <holstein> right
[01:37] <holstein> recording what?
[01:37] <holstein> recordmydesktop does audio
[01:37] <holstein> and the desktop
[01:37] <robertzaccour> yep
[01:37] <robertzaccour> and my open webcam
[01:37] <holstein> so im not clear on what you need VLC for?
[01:37] <holstein> or cheese
[01:37] <robertzaccour> i don't
[01:38] <robertzaccour> it messes up recordmydesktop
[01:38] <holstein> right
[01:38] <robertzaccour> testing out cheese w/o compiz
[01:38] <holstein> but why is it open
[01:38] <holstein> at all?
[01:38] <robertzaccour> to record me haha
[01:38] <holstein> in what capacity?
[01:38] <holstein> im not clear?
[01:38] <holstein> on what the goal is
[01:38] <holstein> IF you want the webcam
[01:38] <holstein> and audio
[01:38] <holstein> use VLC
[01:38] <holstein> alone
[01:38] <robertzaccour> i don't know yet, just want it to work for now
[01:39] <robertzaccour> but i like the destkop being in there also
[01:39] <holstein> like or need?
[01:39] <holstein> or want?
[01:39] <holstein> and in what capacity
[01:39] <holstein> im just suggesting that you might not be using te proper tools
[01:39] <holstein> to get the best results
[01:39] <holstein> IF we can get a handle on what you want to do
[01:40] <holstein> you should be able to have cheese open
[01:40] <robertzaccour> I'm thinking about uploading gameplay from my dazzle capture device of my online game play of smackdown vs raw 2011 and also incorporate myself and what I'm doing online also
[01:40] <holstein> streaming your image on the screen
[01:40] <holstein> and capture the whole she-bang
[01:40] <holstein> with record my desktop
[01:40] <robertzaccour> thats what i'm doing
[01:40] <robertzaccour> testing out sync of audio/video
[01:40] <holstein> right
[01:40] <holstein> you'll need to fiddle with the quality settings
[01:41] <holstein> thats not what cheese is for
[01:41] <holstein> realtime display of the webcam
[01:41] <holstein> thats what you need
[01:41] <holstein> something that is just 'showing' the webcam
[01:41] <holstein> on the screen
[01:41] <robertzaccour> i got cheese open and the desktop recording it while open and recording audo also
[01:41] <holstein> something you can control the quality of
[01:41] <robertzaccour> what do you mean realtime display of webcam?
[01:41] <holstein> OK...
[01:41] <robertzaccour> i control the quality of recordmydesktop
[01:41] <holstein> when you hit the record button
[01:42] <holstein> on recordmydesktop
[01:42] <robertzaccour> and cheese and recordmydesktop automatically render in 720p
[01:42] <holstein> its recording what you say
[01:42] <holstein> thats pretty fast
[01:42] <holstein> pretty good
[01:42] <holstein> and the desktop too
[01:42] <robertzaccour> as long as compiz is shut off haha
[01:42] <holstein> that'll be pretty much right on
[01:42] <holstein> BUT
[01:42] <holstein> cheese
[01:42] <holstein> its roll is not for that
[01:42] <robertzaccour> hopefully the audio and video stay in sync
[01:42] <holstein> its made for another task
[01:42] <holstein> SO
[01:42] <robertzaccour> what application would you recommend?
[01:42] <holstein> its showing your imamage on the screen
[01:42] <holstein> whenever it wants to
[01:42] <holstein> late or whatever
[01:43] <robertzaccour> no its realtime
[01:43] <holstein> with no regard for sync
[01:43] <holstein> if it were
[01:43] <holstein> we would not have this issue
[01:43] <holstein> and, its not what you need anyways
[01:43] <holstein> you're not using cheese for anything
[01:43] <robertzaccour> what do i need?
[01:43] <holstein> other than just showing you're head on the screen
[01:44] <holstein> let me look a bit
[01:44] <holstein> robertzaccour: this is do-able
[01:44] <holstein> i tell people all the time
[01:44] <holstein> in linux the answer is almost always yes
[01:44] <holstein> you'll just need to look around a bit more
[01:44] <holstein> and aks questions
[01:45] <holstein> theres not a 'microsoft' or another commercial entity
[01:45] <holstein> interested it you making sure you find the software
[01:45] <holstein> just you
[01:45] <holstein> and me
[01:45] <holstein> and some other folks
[01:46] <robertzaccour> i know it worked perfectly in camtasia studio in windows, but that switch would be a stretch i'd rather now
[01:46] <robertzaccour> ubuntu is much more simple than windows for me
[01:46] <robertzaccour> for the most part
[01:47] <holstein> this is the kind of thing that gets fiddly
[01:47] <holstein> you can try 'camtasia' in wine
[01:50] <robertzaccour> holstein, you think that would work?
[01:50] <robertzaccour> its a big application
[01:50] <holstein> doesnt matter
[01:50] <holstein> have you checked winehq?
[01:51] <robertzaccour> not yet
[01:51] <holstein> http://appdb.winehq.org/
[01:51] <holstein> sounds to me like you might just be missing a function
[01:51] <holstein> of that software
[01:51] <holstein> might have to decide what you need
[01:51] <holstein> and go from there
[01:51] <holstein> sounds like you're just trying to emulate that software
[01:51] <holstein> thats not going to happen
[01:52] <holstein> IF you need to capture the screen, that can happen
[01:52] <holstein> screen and video can happen
[01:52] <holstein> screen and audio
[01:52] <robertzaccour> http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=7983 doesn't say much
[01:52] <holstein> might just be something no one has thought of
[01:52] <holstein> i know im having a hard time realizing what the need for that is
[01:52] <holstein> BUT you could probably bring it up somewhere
[01:53] <holstein> and get someone interested in wrting it
[01:53] <holstein> if you need it, im sure someone else might
[01:53] <holstein> nothing is impossible
[01:54] <robertzaccour> would an application need development to work in wine?
[01:54] <holstein> robertzaccour: gives it a 'garbage' rating
[01:54] <robertzaccour> who does?
[01:54] <holstein> winehq
[01:54] <holstein> im not suggesting you try and 'fix' that software
[01:54] <holstein> that wont happen
[01:54] <holstein> you can write something from scratch though
[01:55] <holstein> robertzaccour: what machine are you on?
[01:55] <holstein> what specs?
[01:57] <robertzaccour> emachines e527-2537
[01:58] <robertzaccour> 2gb ddr3 ram 2.2 Ghz single core 64 bit
[01:58] <holstein> should be fine
[01:58] <holstein> recordmydesktop and compiz are working fine for me
[01:58] <holstein> what nvidia driver are you using?
[01:58] <robertzaccour> i don't have nvidia
[01:59] <holstein> ok
[01:59] <holstein> what graphics card do you have?
[01:59] <holstein> and what driver are you using?
[02:00] <holstein> sometimes the proprietary ones have better support for certain things
[02:00] <holstein> compiz and whatnot
[02:00] <holstein> on a machine of those specs
[02:00] <holstein> the DE isnt going to help
[02:00] <holstein> its going to be driver support
[02:00] <holstein> thats plenty to push compiz and whatever else
[02:00] <holstein> along with gnome
[02:01] <robertzaccour> oh ok
[02:02] <robertzaccour> i might wanna do something similar to what osgui does on youtube
[02:02] <holstein> osgui is?
[02:03] <holstein> robertzaccour: you going to be here for a minute?
[02:03] <holstein> i'll just try what you are trying here
[02:03] <holstein> and see if it works...
[02:03] <robertzaccour> ok screencasting works great now :)
[02:03] <robertzaccour> just not with compiz on
[02:04] <robertzaccour> ohh ok
[02:07] <holstein> yeah, see
[02:07] <holstein> i have lag already
[02:07] <holstein> just opening cheese
[02:07] <holstein> cheese is late
[02:08] <holstein> VLC is late too
[02:09] <holstein> robertzaccour: yeah, we need a simpler tool
[02:09] <holstein> for this purpose
[02:09] <holstein> something that will get the webcam to the desktop faster
[02:10] <holstein> thats where the breakdown is for me
[02:10] <robertzaccour> its like a quarter second
[02:10] <holstein> yup
[02:10] <robertzaccour> or you can record the audio separately and sync it in pitivi or kdenlive maybe
[02:10] <holstein> i mean, its a webcam
[02:10] <holstein> its not really supposed to do that
[02:10] <robertzaccour> i think it depends on your hardware
[02:10] <holstein> robertzaccour: thats do-able maybe
[02:10] <holstein> sync later
[02:10] <robertzaccour> osgui and others on youtube use cheese and its fine for them
[02:11] <holstein> and osgui is??
[02:11] <holstein> robertzaccour: ask about the hardware
[02:11] <holstein> maybe its not a cheesy webcam like i hav
[02:11] <holstein> e
[02:11] <holstein> cheese *is* overkill for this though
[02:11] <robertzaccour> i have a 720p webcam its logitech
[02:12] <robertzaccour> cost only like 34 bucks
[02:12] <holstein> you just want your head in a box
[02:12] <holstein> robertzaccour: doesnt matter
[02:12] <holstein> matters more about driver support in linux really
[02:12] <holstein> and quality second
[02:12] <robertzaccour> yeah driver support really sucks in Linux, even though I prefer Linux as an OS
[02:12] <holstein> better than windows
[02:12] <holstein> or osx
[02:13] <robertzaccour> but you have to be real choosy before you buy
[02:13] <holstein> the linux kernel supports an amazing number of devices out-of-the-box
[02:13] <robertzaccour> actually windows has the best driver support because they are tailored for windows from the start
[02:13] <robertzaccour> yes true
[02:13] <holstein> nah
[02:13] <robertzaccour> from my experience
[02:13] <holstein> windows doesnt support any devices really
[02:14] <holstein> the vendors are given the tools and permission to write drivers
[02:14] <robertzaccour> preinstalled i meant
[02:14] <holstein> but they are not inculded in windows
[02:14] <robertzaccour> yes true
[02:14] <holstein> almost nothing is supported by windows
[02:14] <holstein> OSX is worse ;)
[02:15] <holstein> they are all getting better all the time though
[02:15] <holstein> as they should
[02:15] <holstein> robertzaccour: if you have friends that you can aks
[02:15] <holstein> that are doing exaclty what you are doing
[02:15] <holstein> i say ask them how
[02:15] <holstein> i think cheese is overkill
[02:15] <robertzaccour> people's computers ahve to work the way they want them to. whether its the vendors decision to support Linux and its outside their control, it doesn't matter who's fault it is all that matters is that stuff works the way its intended
[02:15] <holstein> and i dont know what to suggest
[02:15] <robertzaccour> cheese is the best option that i know of
[02:16] <holstein> and im not going to be motivated to find it
[02:16] <holstein> robertzaccour: its not a matter fault
[02:16] <holstein> im allowed to write my own drivers
[02:16] <holstein> if i know how
[02:16] <holstein> and choose to learn
[02:17] <holstein> in windows, i might not be given that same luxury
[02:17] <robertzaccour> i don't wanna do configuring haha i want everything to work automatically :)
[02:17] <holstein> anyways, this is not a 'coke' 'pepsi' battle
[02:17] <robertzaccour> true
[02:17] <holstein> i've already drank the kool-aid ;)
[02:17] <holstein> and ive installed both OS's
[02:17] <robertzaccour> i get the cheap drinks haha
[02:17] <holstein> recently
[02:18] <robertzaccour> the $4 24 pack of can sodas
[02:18] <holstein> and i can tell you which has better support out of the box
[02:18] <holstein> and which i preffer
[02:18] <holstein> and why
[02:18] <holstein> robertzaccour: also, this issue you're experiencin
[02:18] <holstein> g
[02:18] <holstein> is not really an ubuntustudio specific one
[02:18] <holstein> SO
[02:18] <robertzaccour> for me Ubuntu is easier than windows, mainly because of smaller footprint of apps and how fast and easy it is to install/uninstall
[02:18] <holstein> you might want to ask around in #ubuntu-beginners
[02:18] <robertzaccour> its nice to not have to go to a website to get software
[02:18] <holstein> i know #ubuntu is a mess usually
[02:19] <robertzaccour> for me its the easiest to use OS right now
[02:19] <holstein> BUT, messing with kernels and DE's
[02:19] <holstein> not going to be the answer
[02:19] <robertzaccour> oh and mac driver support does suck, they only support apple computers haha
[02:20] <holstein> well, the hardware is crossing over more and more
[02:20] <holstein> since the intel procs
[02:20] <holstein> but still, a gernerally smaller base of hardware to support
[02:23] <robertzaccour> apple computers and mac os x are pretty, but there isn't any more functionality than in any other OS
[02:23] <robertzaccour> actually less if you count hardware lol
[02:23] <holstein> hehe
[02:23] <holstein> nice price point
[02:23] <robertzaccour> i don't wanna pay $3000 for one though
[02:24] <holstein> 30 bucks i paid for snow leopard
[02:24] <holstein> i installed it on the macbook i paid nothing for :)
[02:24] <robertzaccour> i found this this theme on xfce look. recken it would work in gnome also? http://xfce-look.org/content/show.php/Industrial+green+black+?content=91636
[02:27] <robertzaccour> i know camtasia studio had a built in webcam display.
[02:27] <robertzaccour> also what was cool was you didn't see it while recording, but after the recording
[02:27] <holstein> right
[02:27] <holstein> we dont have anything like that
[02:27] <holstein> AFAIK
[02:27] <holstein> til now
[02:28] <holstein> i had never heard of anyone interested in having it
[02:28] <holstein> thats why
[02:28] <robertzaccour> linux users on youtube do this all the time
[02:28] <holstein> email them
[02:28] <holstein> and ask
[02:28] <robertzaccour> i did
[02:29] <robertzaccour> they just use recordmydesktop and edit in kdenlive mostly
[02:29] <holstein> you can get a theme like that from gnome look
[02:29] <holstein> i saw screenshots
[02:29] <holstein> from a user in #ubuntu-beginners
[02:30] <holstein> robertzaccour: maybe they sync the audio afterward then?
[02:30] <robertzaccour> doesn't G2x work in gnome though?
[02:30] <robertzaccour> i meant GTX 2.x
[02:30] <holstein> or the webcam displays more in realtime on their systems
[02:30] <robertzaccour> no mostly just record
[02:30] <holstein> for some reason
[02:30] <robertzaccour> they probably have a lot of ram, good graphics card, and good processor
[02:30] <holstein> nah
[02:30] <holstein> thats not the issue
[02:31] <robertzaccour> a lot of them have like 16 GB ram
[02:31] <holstein> * not the issue
[02:31] <holstein> you got plenty of pep
[02:32] <robertzaccour> mine video is only about 1/4 second behind the audio. barely noticeable
[02:32] <robertzaccour> on my last laptop the sync would run away
[02:32] <robertzaccour> and get worse more behind as time went on
[02:32] <holstein> too many variables though
[02:32] <robertzaccour> yeah
[02:32] <holstein> to draw a comparison
[02:33] <holstein> based on system specs
[02:33] <robertzaccour> good hardware is most likely the secret
[02:33] <holstein> well, it wont hurt
[02:33] <holstein> but you got plenty to do what you're trying to do
[02:33] <holstein> ive had JACK running on a p3 with 256 of ram
[02:34] <holstein> at some pretty riduculous latency settings
[02:34] <holstein> from a live CD
[02:34] <robertzaccour> i wanna record my online gameplay on smackdown vs raw 2011 and also talk about the game stuff
[02:34] <holstein> robertzaccour: you can do that
[02:34] <robertzaccour> you have linux on your ps3?
[02:34] <holstein> i dont need to see you talk about it
[02:34] <robertzaccour> it only allows up to 1/4 gig ram on those things
[02:34] <holstein> i would argue its distracting anyways
[02:34] <robertzaccour> and is very slow
[02:34] <holstein> i dont have a PS3
[02:35] <holstein> i was talking about an older pIII
[02:35] <holstein> 500mhz
[02:35] <robertzaccour> i dunno i think the webcam makes it more interactive
[02:35] <robertzaccour> oh ok haha
[02:35] <holstein> takes up some screen space
[02:35] <robertzaccour> i was thinkin you haven't updated your ps3 in 2 years haha
[02:36] <robertzaccour> they dropped linux support
[02:36] <holstein> i dont need to see and hear you
[02:36] <robertzaccour> it was shitty support anyways
[02:36] <holstein> i would argue its not needed
[02:36] <holstein> robertzaccour: yeah, i heard it was dropped
[02:36] <robertzaccour> some would say it takes up space, and some would say it makes it more interactive
[02:36] <robertzaccour> it was
[02:36] <holstein> sure
[02:36] <robertzaccour> wasn't worth bothering with anyways
[02:36] <robertzaccour> 256 mb ram is a joke
[02:36] <holstein> i would say, you *should* be able to do it
[02:37] <holstein> but, i would choose not to personally
[02:37] <holstein> for the screen space
[02:37] <holstein> BUT, ive seen a couple like that
[02:37] <holstein> with the guy down in the corner
[02:37] <holstein> i thought it was unecessary
[02:37] <robertzaccour> i got mine in the lower right corner. not much space at all but i see what you mean
[02:39] <holstein> you could do this with JACK though
[02:39] <holstein> in theory
[02:39] <holstein> and get it all synced up
[02:39] <holstein> you'd have to ask a video guy though
[02:40] <holstein> anyways.. BIAB
[02:42] <robertzaccour> wanna see this theme in action?
[02:43] <robertzaccour> man i see firefox implements theme better than chromium
[02:43] <robertzaccour> goin back to firefox i guess
[02:44] <robertzaccour> ok
[13:53] <S2Do> Hi there. I've just found out about Gnome 3 and ubuntu unity... is ubuntu studio planning to move to one of thease?
[13:59] <ailo_at> s2Do: UbuntuStudio will use gnome. Don't think Gnome 3 will be ready in time for Natty at least
[13:59] <ailo_at> S2Do *
[14:00] <ailo_at> Wow. Just saw that gnome 3 has a new website. http://www.gnome3.org/
[14:06] <S2Do> Well, I would be concern about having gnome3 in ubuntu studio 'cause that would use more computer resources
[14:13] <S2Do> hope they stick with the current version as it is reasonably stable. I'm running maverik (wich I love!) on my desktop and laptop. My laptop is a thinkpad x31 (2003) and it runs and smoothly :)
[14:14] <holstein> unity might be lighter than gnome
[14:14] <holstein> we were talking about xfce and lxde though
[14:14] <holstein> we'll see :)
[14:20] <S2Do> Those two sound reasonable
[14:21] <S2Do> I just found uneccesary the use of flashy interfaces for a computer studio and would rather save that power for audio recording
[14:28] <holstein> well, one thing is for sure
[14:28] <holstein> you cant please everyone
[14:29] <holstein> i figure some confortalbe middle ground for the default install is cool
[14:29] <holstein> something easy to maintain
[14:29] <holstein> thats not totally different from default buntu
[14:29] <holstein> and the end-user can choose to run fluxbox or openbox or whatever
[14:30] <holstein> i mean, we got crazy fast machines now
[14:30] <holstein> mutiple cores and GPU's just sitting there
[14:30] <holstein> might as well use em if you got em :)
[14:35] <S2Do> I agree :)
[14:37] <S2Do> I wonder, is there a public place to talk about this decisions, what packages to include, etc. I mean, a place where the end users can vote for certain features.
[14:38] <holstein> S2Do: in ubuntustudio?
[14:38] <holstein> you can /j #ubuntustudio-devel
[14:38] <holstein> and join the mailing lists
[14:39] <ailo_at> S2Do: Most packages come directly from Debian, but about deciding on the Desktop, as holstein says..
[14:39] <ailo_at> Or, deciding on what packages to include in the standard Ubuntu installation, of course
[14:39] <holstein> we (US) have to follow certain guidelines
[14:40] <ailo_at> Ubuntustudio*, I mean
[14:40] <holstein> we cant really add packages like you're suggesting
[14:40] <holstein> willy nilly
[14:40] <holstein> we have to follow proper protocols
[14:40] <holstein> to get things in the main repos
[14:40] <holstein> and install them default
[14:40] <holstein> and for good reason i think
[14:41] <holstein> BUT, ppa's are commonly used for adding custom versions or new packages
[14:41] <holstein> i think the PPA system is great
[14:41] <S2Do> I undesrta
[14:42] <S2Do> I understand. I'm just knew to ubuntu studio and I'm curious how it all works behind the scenes. I will join the ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list
[14:42] <holstein> S2Do: that doesnt mean you cant have some say-so
[14:43] <S2Do> I meant new
[14:43] <holstein> you are more than welcome over in #ubuntustudio-devel
[14:43] <holstein> if you can hang over there for a bit
[14:43] <holstein> you'll see how it goes
[14:45] <S2Do> yeah I'll give it a try :)
[14:45] <S2Do> I've being a ubuntu user for some years but I just made the switch tu US a few months a go and I'm loving it
[14:47] <holstein> cool
[14:47] <S2Do> I guess am looking for a way to make a contribution
[14:47] <holstein> glad to hear 10.10 is working for you
[14:47] <holstein> what hardware are you using?
[14:47] <holstein> audio interface?
[14:47] <S2Do> I'm using a cakewalk UA25ex
[14:48] <holstein> cool
[14:48] <holstein> those look nice
[14:48] <holstein> you like th pre's ?
[14:48] <holstein> the*
[14:48] <holstein> xyclo_: ping
[14:48] <holstein> i have news
[14:48] <holstein> if you're on the yoshimi list, im sure you saw it
[14:48] <AutoStatic> Cool device S2Do
[14:49] <holstein> BUT that verion is just not going to work
[14:49] <holstein> AutoStatic: o/
[14:49] <AutoStatic> Decent piece of equipment
[14:49] <holstein> AutoStatic: your PPA saved the day again
[14:49] <holstein> xyclo_: the version in AutoStatic 's PPA will work fine for 32bit machines
[14:49] <S2Do> AutoStatic: I made this decision base on your post in the forums :)
[14:50] <S2Do> The device is nice indeed and works right out of the box
[14:51] <ailo_at> I'm still wondering about usb standard compliancy. What's the highest settings you guys can use? 96kHz/24bit?
[14:52] <AutoStatic> The latter yes
[14:52] <holstein> yeah
[14:52] <holstein> 24/96 on the firepod
[14:52] <holstein> i use 24/44.1 usually though
[14:52] <AutoStatic> But then you can only either use playback or capture, not both, so no full duplex
[14:52] <S2Do> first a bought the early version, second hand, but had some noise problems. Then I found out it was sort of a defective design and it was solved in the new version. So I went for it :)
[14:52] <ailo_at> holstein: Yeah, but that
[14:52] <ailo_at> that's firewire.
[14:53] <AutoStatic> S2Do: I have zero issues with that noise problem
[14:53] <AutoStatic> I have the old one
[14:53] <ailo_at> I read about M-audio's Fasttrack pro
[14:54] <AutoStatic> Read about the noise problems somewhere too but I don't think it's a big issue
[14:54] <ailo_at> holstein: usb devices hardly have any drivers, from what I know, aside from standard usb drivers
[14:54] <xyclo_> holstein,
[14:54] <S2Do> Autostatic, It only happens with certain machines. It work flawlessly on my old laptop, but not in my iMac (main computer) :(
[14:54] <ailo_at> AutoStatic: It was this line that caught my attention "Class compliancy supports 16-bit/48kHz 2 x 4 operation on OS X 10.3.9 and higher. Driver installation required to access more I/O.", when reading about Fast Track Pro
[14:55] <xyclo_> holstein: I saw, but not on the list. I'll stick to autostatic's v
[14:55] <AutoStatic> ailo_at: didn't we talk about that earlier?
[14:55] <S2Do> Autostatic, it's something related to ground-loops
[14:56] <xyclo_> yoshimi developers seem quite frustrated with the problem of v 0.60 on 64bit machines running 32bit systems
[14:56] <ailo_at> AutoStatic: I guess so :)
[14:56] <holstein> xyclo_: i think its 32bit installs in general
[14:56] <xyclo_> hm
[14:56] <xyclo_> ok
[14:56] <AutoStatic> S2Do: ah ground loops! I sue had some issues with that
[14:56] <holstein> i have the issue on both all my 32bit installs
[14:56] <holstein> regaurdless of chip
[14:56] <xyclo_> I think I will switch to 64 bit soon anyway
[14:56] <holstein> lol
[14:56] <holstein> both all ;)
[14:56] <xyclo_> no problems on that one, right?
[14:57] <holstein> just all my installs*
[14:57] <AutoStatic> "Driver installation required to access more I/O" You could interpret that in different ways
[14:57] <holstein> xyclo_: different problems
[14:57] <xyclo_> of course
[14:57] <holstein> i cant get lightscribe in 32bit
[14:57] <holstein> i cant get lightscribe in 64bit*
[14:57] <holstein> other than that, 64 is working great for me
[14:58] <ailo_at> AutoStatic: Well, I was most concerned with 16 bit. And it seems like very few, or no devices support that many channels.
[14:58] <S2Do> Autostatic, well the new version has a switch to get rid of that but I hadn't use it as it worked out of the box. Maybe I had a defective unit.
[14:58] <ailo_at> By "that many channels" I mean, something like 8 I/O
[14:59] <holstein> the firepod is so reasonably priced
[14:59] <holstein> used too
[14:59] <holstein> and out of the box
[14:59] <ailo_at> Anyway, it would be nice to confirm that you guys actually get 24 bit operation. How do you tell?
[14:59] <holstein> hell, the saphire pro40 is cheap too
[14:59] <holstein> more bang for the buck than the firepod
[15:00] <holstein> IF you can go firewire
[15:00] <AutoStatic> ailo_at: I can use my UA25 at 96Khz 24bits
[15:00] <AutoStatic> But only to record or to capture, not full duplex
[15:00] <holstein> ua25 is tiny too
[15:01] <ailo_at> AutoStatic: The device sets the I/O automatically when you use those settings?
[15:01] <holstein> looks sturdy
[15:02]  * ailo_at should get a device and find out for myself :)
[15:02] <holstein> AutoStatic: whats up with that comp/limit ?
[15:02] <holstein> is that on the pre's
[15:02] <holstein> on the way in?
[15:02] <AutoStatic> ailo_at: No you have to select it with a dipswitch on the back opf the unit
[15:02] <holstein> AutoStatic or S2Do ^^
[15:03] <AutoStatic> holstein: that's  a UA25EX feature ;)
[15:03] <holstein> i have comp on a preamp here
[15:04] <holstein> i think its handy to have a little hardware comp on the way in to the box
[15:04] <xyclo> true about hardware comp on the pre
[15:05] <xyclo> Has anybody tried the dbx preamp with comp and spdif?
[15:05] <xyclo> 376 I think...
[15:06] <xyclo> I am so curious about it
[15:06] <holstein> http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/376/?gclid=COyWk5_2h6cCFUeW7QodLlPUdg
[15:07] <xyclo> right, that one
[15:07] <xyclo> I need to go listen to it :)
[15:07] <holstein> looks cool
[15:07] <holstein> who knows
[15:07] <holstein> i have http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Eureka
[15:07] <holstein> i like it
[15:07] <xyclo> The 386 seems cool too
[15:07] <xyclo> The Eureka! nice
[15:08] <xyclo> I think on the 376 you pay a fee for the spdif  out
[15:08] <xyclo> The Eureka seems like a better strip though
[15:08] <S2Do> holstein, it has two type of compression; one for short attack (suitable for vocals) and one for long attack, suitable for instruments.
[15:08] <xyclo> nice
[15:09] <xyclo> hw tends to be one trick pony, so versatility is great
[15:09] <holstein> alright, gotta run... BBL
[15:09] <S2Do> holstain, I tried the second type once but I'd rather add that later in the mix.
[15:09] <holstein> S2Do: yeah, thats the thing, you get stuck with it :/
[15:10] <holstein> anyways... o/


[09:43] <fabbione> braddr: ping?
[09:45] <fabbione> braddr: when you wake up can you please send to me the output of "/usr/sbin/prtconf -pv"


[10:06] <Ziggurat> I tried to install Intel Graphics Driver for Linux on Ubuntu 15.10, I am not sure if it worked the installer says it requires 15.04 but I circumvented the check, at least I got some more features unrelated to graphics. I have only been able to launch linux with the nomodeset parameter both before and after I tried to install the driver.
[14:01] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[14:56] <amari> Hi, is ubuntu 15.10 beta 2 out?
[14:56] <BluesKaj> yes
[14:56] <amari> BluesKaj: Where to get it? Can't find it in releases.ubuntu.com yet
[14:58] <BluesKaj> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
[14:58] <amari> BluesKaj: thanks :D
[14:58] <BluesKaj> it's in the topic above as well
[14:58] <BluesKaj> or should be
[14:59] <amari> Daily builds: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/ the normal daily builds
[14:59] <amari> not the beta ISO itself
[14:59] <amari> but should be the same as the one released today :P
[14:59] <amari> Or I don't know...
[15:00] <BluesKaj> look at the date in the list below the images , it syas sept 24 , which is today
[16:46] <coyote> Hi I am running ubuntu 15.10 and having trouble installing brackets because of a dependency issue https://github.com/adobe/brackets/releases I tried installing the deb file with gdebi and get this message Error: dependency is not satisfiable:libcrypt11 (>= 1.4.5)Launchad says that it's a transitional dummy package  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/wily/+package/libgcrypt11-dev
[16:47] <coyote> Which dependency should I go for?
[16:48] <coyote> libgcrypt20-dev the new one or a libcrypt11?
[16:52] <qengho> coyote: The old transition isn't in your dist version then?
[16:53] <coyote> how do I tell>
[16:54] <qengho> $ apt-cache policy libcrypt11
[16:55] <qengho> coyote: since you know what it did, you could make your own that Depend on new, and satisfies the name of the old.  Pack age "equivs" can do that for you. Read its man page.
[16:55] <coyote> apt-cache policy libcrypt11
[16:57] <coyote> man page for what command?
[20:24] <goddard> i sometimes have to run my ssh command multiple times to connect
[20:24] <goddard> i use private key files
[20:24] <goddard> is this some how my fault?
[23:08] <lehzm> something change with the 15.10 torrents? rtorrent stating not authorized suddenly
[23:44] <DalekSec> lehzm: New beta, didn't know/remember they did torrents for beta releases.
[23:52] <fhf> DalekSec: He mean rtorrent package, not torrents for releases
[23:53] <fhf> lehzm: its up to rtorrent devs if i understand you correctly


[09:30] <afournier> it happens that when i do a start job or stop job, upstart is waiting for something (it does not give back the shell), the job is in "start/starting" "stop/starting"
[09:30] <afournier> is there a way to "debug" this behavior ?
[09:32] <phroddon> afournier: increase the debug level (initctl -q log-priority debug, if I recall correctly)
[09:32] <phroddon> afournier: I like to strace the upstart job also, it can help a lot
[09:32] <phroddon> (for example, put a sleep at the very beginning of the job to have the time to strace it ;)
[09:33] <afournier> like this "strace --someargs start job"
[09:33] <afournier> ?
[09:33] <afournier> ha you attach to the pid ?
[09:33] <phroddon> yup
[09:33] <afournier> k
[10:43] <afournier> i found something when "stracing" initctl
[10:43] <afournier> after the connect to dbus, and negotiation, it gets a recvmsg(3, 0xbf837c3c, MSG_CMSG_CLOEXEC) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable)
[10:43] <afournier> and then it waits forever in poll()
[10:44] <afournier> any idea ?
[12:58] <afournier> i am starting to think that upstart was not a good choice at all
[13:58] <jodh> afournier: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/#establish-blocking-job
[14:05] <afournier> thanks jodh, i really thought initctl was buggy
[14:06] <afournier> a warning would be a good idea, dunno if it's possible
[14:06] <afournier> i will try this script right now
[14:10] <jodh> afournier: it doesn't make sense to show a warning in this scenario as upstart is working correctly - it's simply blocking waiting for the remaining events in your jobs 'start on' to be emitted. If you don't want initctl to block itself (just the job), use 'initctl -n emit ...'
[14:11] <afournier> that's what i was thinking in the first place, but using "start job" and waiting for ever is not natural, because when someone says "start job" it expects the job to start, not to wait for ever
[14:48] <xnox> afournier: that depends, currently one is guaranteed that when `start job` exits with 0 you can rely  on the service be available & hence start using it immediately.
[14:51] <afournier> the problem was on start, not at exit
[14:53] <afournier> i was thinking that calling a job with the start command would force it to start, but from what i understood, if the job as something like "start on started other_job" job will wait until other_job has started
[14:53] <afournier> to me start was implicit "manual" but it's not
[14:55] <afournier> another option would be to print a warning/notice on CTRL+C, to say job was not started because this condition was not met
[15:57] <SpamapS> afournier: start on and stop on are not evaluated when you do an explicit start or stop of a job
[15:57] <afournier> so it's like having "manual"
[15:57] <SpamapS> afournier: what you're blocking on is *other* jobs that 'start on starting yourjob and xxxxx' .. where xxxxx is something that happens only during boot most likely
[15:57] <afournier> ah ok
[15:57] <SpamapS> afournier: so I would look for other things that mention your job in their start on
[15:57] <SpamapS> or stop on
[15:58] <SpamapS> afournier: Those other things are most likely "doing it wrong"
[15:58] <afournier> i get it
[15:58] <afournier> thanks SpamapS
[16:00] <SpamapS> afournier: as far as initctl blocking forever.. I am troubled by it too, and have oft thought that if 'initctl --verbose start foo' could say something like 'emitted starting foo\nstarting foo blocked by job bar [start on starting foo and net-device-up]' that would be great
[16:00] <SpamapS> afournier: when you have log-priority set to debug, you can see that in syslog.. but.. yeah.. thats a bit disconnected from your terminal


[00:10]  * thumper is back
[00:12] <thumper> davecheney: I have an idea, but it is a little icky
[00:12] <davecheney> shoot
[00:12] <thumper> davecheney: I'll see if I can make it owrk
[00:12] <thumper> parameterise from above
[00:12] <thumper> if I can't use a dynamic way of getting the param, pass it in
[00:14]  * thumper bangs on the keyboard for a bit
[00:24]  * thumper sighs
[00:27] <thumper> tests in cmd depend on classes in ../worker
[00:28] <thumper> seems wrong IMO
[00:28] <davecheney> test helpers ?
[00:28] <davecheney> cards on the table
[00:28] <davecheney> i'm here to help make Juju better in any way that you think it should be
[00:29] <davecheney> but I can't change the language
[00:29] <davecheney> it isn't object oriented in the way that most of the textbooks say
[00:29] <davecheney> so some things just won't work
[00:29] <thumper> davecheney: more just testing other parts
[00:29] <thumper> I've got it working
[00:29] <thumper> isn't as fugly as some methods
[00:29] <thumper> :)
[00:33] <thumper> davecheney: ok, question time...
[00:34] <davecheney> shoot
[00:34] <thumper> if I have a composed element, and I want to provide specialised implementation of a function also defined by the composed element
[00:34] <thumper> and I want the derived function to call the composed function
[00:34] <thumper> what is the way to do it?
[00:34]  * davecheney translates
[00:34] <davecheney> two secs, lemmie do a paste
[00:38] <davecheney> thumper: is this of any use ? http://play.golang.org/p/NbcP2zklaj
[00:38]  * thumper clicks
[00:39] <thumper> b.A.Get()
[00:39] <thumper> yes
[00:39] <davecheney> so, embedding A into B allows you to call B.A.Get as B.Get
[00:39] <davecheney> the compiler doesn't actually create a forwarding method
[00:40] <davecheney> ie, there isn't a synthetic method on B called Get that returns B.A.Get()
[00:40]  * thumper nods
[00:40] <davecheney> _but_ if you want to interpose in that
[00:40] <thumper> just convenience
[00:40] <davecheney> you can
[00:40] <thumper> sweet sweet sugar
[00:40] <davecheney> and sometimes it is necessary if you embed two types that have the same method sig
[00:40] <davecheney> you need to break the deadlock
[00:41] <davecheney> TBH, go's application of syntactic sugar is inconsistent
[00:41]  * thumper nods
[00:41] <davecheney> automatic pointer deferending for method dispatch +1
[00:41] <davecheney> no obvious type converstions -1
[00:41] <davecheney> there is a reason for all of it
[00:41] <davecheney> but the reason is generally 'this is my opinion, - rob pike'
[00:43] <thumper> :)
[00:43] <davecheney> as long as you can make peace with that fact, life can be good
[00:44] <davecheney> thumper: i am going to put the completion of commands back on the agenda for tonight
[00:44] <davecheney> i (personally) do not feel I understand the work that is remaining
[00:44] <thumper> as in "which need to be done?"
[00:45]  * thumper nods
[00:45] <davecheney> and, without disrepect to your gap analysis, we now have yet another 80% complete document that doesn't capture actionable work
[00:47] <davecheney> paying my strata fees 3 days early, like a boss
[00:50] <thumper> strata?
[00:50] <davecheney> what we call the rates for the apartment block
[00:50] <davecheney> pays for the common area, power, cleaning , that shit
[00:50] <thumper> ah
[00:50]  * thumper nods
[00:50] <thumper> every time I feel like I have a good grip on this, the stick becomes a slippery eel
[00:51] <davecheney> the commands work ?
[00:52] <thumper> making help work nicely
[00:52] <davecheney> oh
[00:52] <davecheney> ok
[00:53] <thumper> because ideally: juju deploy --help
[00:53] <thumper> should be the same as: juju help deploy
[00:53] <davecheney> yes
[00:53] <thumper> but the mechanism for getting there are differrent
[01:17] <thumper> davecheney: ok, I think I almost have this working properly now
[01:17] <thumper> just some tests to fix, tests to write etc
[01:18] <davecheney> sweet
[01:18] <davecheney> nearly lunch time here (i can hear my SO stiring in the next room)
[01:18] <thumper> davecheney: do you think people would complain that I've changed help output from stderr to stdout?
[01:18] <davecheney> no idea about the others, but I would no object
[01:19] <davecheney> not
[01:19] <thumper> ok, lets see :)
[01:19] <thumper> I think it makes more sense to have help output on stdout
[01:19] <thumper> not stderr
[01:19] <thumper> as it isn't an error
[01:19] <davecheney> thumper: can you describe your views on stdout/stderr ?
[01:19] <thumper> call me pedantic
[01:19] <thumper> davecheney: sure...
[01:19] <davecheney> (to see if they mesh with mine)
[01:20] <thumper> expected output should go to stdout, which is "normal"
[01:20] <thumper> exceptional or error text should to to stderr
[01:20] <davecheney> and if you ask for help, you should expect it on stdout
[01:20] <davecheney> makes sense
[01:20] <davecheney> thumper: what about verbose or debug information ? stdout as well ?
[01:20] <thumper> there are occasions where you want different information streams on stdout vs stderr, but they should really be rationalised
[01:21] <thumper> verbose output should go to stdout
[01:21] <thumper> because you asked for verbose
[01:21] <thumper> and it is output
[01:21] <davecheney> SGTM
[01:21] <thumper> debug info is a fluffy situation
[01:21] <thumper> normally I'd say stdout
[01:21] <thumper> unless you've configured your logging to go to stderr
[01:21] <davecheney> one reason for the prediliction to stderr is, by default the Go log package sends everything to stderr
[01:21] <thumper> which should always be an option
[01:21] <davecheney> so that default tends to drive other decisions
[01:22] <thumper> command output isn't logging
[01:22] <thumper> sending logging to stderr by default can be argued to allow 2>some_file
[01:22] <davecheney> i guess it depends on what your program does
[01:22] <davecheney> if it is piping data, that limits your options
[01:23] <davecheney> but if it commincates on other fd's, ie, networking
[01:23] <davecheney> then you have more choice
[01:23] <thumper> sure, but we're not
[01:30] <thumper> davecheney: oh, don't suppose you want to add me to ~juju ?
[01:30] <thumper> davecheney: you are an admin
[01:33] <thumper> davecheney: one thing I'd like to change is "bufferString(ctx.Stdout)" -> "testing.Stdout(ctx)"
[01:33] <thumper> davecheney: what do you think?
[01:33] <thumper> davecheney: I think it reads a little better
[01:33] <thumper> obviously another one for "testing.Stderr(ctx)"
[01:34] <thumper> and then delete both instances of bufferString
[01:35] <davecheney> thumper: are you still not in that group
[01:35] <davecheney> two secs
[01:35] <thumper> davecheney: not that one
[01:35] <thumper> added to the gophers
[01:35] <davecheney> thumper: which group are you missing ?
[01:35] <thumper> ~juju
[01:35] <thumper> https://launchpad.net/~juju
[01:36] <davecheney> thumper: done
[01:36] <davecheney> re: "bufferString(ctx.Stdout)" -> "testing.Stdout(ctx)"
[01:36] <davecheney> sure
[01:36] <thumper> ta
[01:36] <davecheney> maybe do it as a separate branch
[01:36] <davecheney> smaller branches == less latency
[01:36] <thumper> yep, agreed
[01:36] <davecheney> I think i had a change that did exactly that
[01:36] <davecheney> but it was blocked on a stack of prereqs that went nowhere
[01:37] <davecheney> i tried to remerge it yesterday
[01:37] <davecheney> but gave up as it was fucked
[01:40] <thumper> :(
[01:40] <thumper> interesting that we think along very similar lines
[01:41]  * thumper does the relocation dance
[02:59] <thumper> davecheney: ping
[03:38] <thumper> well that's dumb
[04:15] <wallyworld_> anyone know how/where to configure the mongo admin password so that juju state works after a bootstrap?
[04:19] <davecheney> wallyworld_: i have no idea how any of that works
[04:19] <davecheney> i know it's a bit fragile
[04:19] <wallyworld_> thanks anyway, i'll look into it
[04:20] <davecheney> i think all agents share a password, but they use a per client certificate
[04:20] <wallyworld_> all i did was "juju bootstrap" and then "jujustatus" and the status failed
[04:20] <davecheney> paste
[04:20] <davecheney> ?
[04:20] <davecheney> that is seroius
[04:21] <davecheney> what does the log on the bootstrap node say ?
[04:21] <wallyworld_> i had to hack the stupid error code to get real info out of it
[04:21] <wallyworld_> i haven't logged into the bootstrap node
[04:21] <wallyworld_> i guess i can just ssh in
[04:22] <wallyworld_> but on my client, i get a screenfull of this
[04:22] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 14:01:16 JUJU state: opening state; mongo addresses: ["<IP_ADDRESS>:37017"]; entity ""
[04:22] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 14:01:16 JUJU state: connecting to <IP_ADDRESS>:37017
[04:22] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 14:01:17 JUJU state: connection established
[04:22] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 14:01:17 JUJU state: opening state; mongo addresses: ["<IP_ADDRESS>:37017"]; entity ""
[04:22] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 14:01:17 JUJU state: connecting to <IP_ADDRESS>:37017
[04:22] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 14:01:18 JUJU state: connection established
[04:22] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 14:01:19 JUJU juju status command failed: cannot log in to admin database: auth fails
[04:22] <wallyworld_> error: cannot log in to admin database: auth fails
[04:22] <wallyworld_> it finally ends with an error
[04:22] <davecheney> what about on the bootstrap node ?
[04:22] <davecheney> /var/log/juju/*log
[04:22] <davecheney> or /var/log/cloudinit-output.log
[04:22] <wallyworld_> before it just used to say "unauthorized access" without telling me what
[04:23]  * wallyworld_ looks
[04:24] <wallyworld_> hmmm. nova list returns a few servers. i think some were running already before i did the juju bootstrap
[04:24] <davecheney> i wonder if it picked up the wrong bootstrap node
[04:25] <wallyworld_> is "juju-hpcloud-machine-0" supposed to be the bootstrap node?
[04:25] <wallyworld_> there's also "juju hpcloud instance 0"
[04:25] <wallyworld_> i'll try and log into them
[04:26] <davecheney> wallyworld_: not sure, i've only been able to bootstrap ec2 nodes
[04:26] <davecheney> so i'm used to their line noise names
[04:26] <wallyworld_> except ssh fails
[04:26] <davecheney> maybe the machine is fucked
[04:26] <davecheney> boot'd the wrong ami
[04:27] <wallyworld_> maybe i'll just kill them all and try again
[04:28] <wallyworld_> except it's a shared account so maybe not
[04:28] <davecheney> meh, blow em away
[04:29] <davecheney> and say it was a bug :)
[04:29] <wallyworld_> wcpgw
[04:47] <wallyworld_> davecheney: got ssh access finally. but nothing i can see in the juju log nor the clound-init log. will keep poking around
[04:48] <davecheney> ps aux
[04:48] <davecheney> is jujud running ?
[04:48] <davecheney> sounds like it was stillborn
[04:49] <wallyworld_> jujud running
[04:50] <wallyworld_> i'll try it all again. i'd love to know where the admin password comes from
[04:53] <davecheney> from what I understand it is generated on bootstrap and is essentially opaque
[04:53] <davecheney> i'm not quite sure why we use both a password and tls client certs
[04:54] <wallyworld_> i have no idea either
[04:54] <wallyworld_> i realised one issue - i'm running Q and the image is i specified was for P. so perhaps there's an issue there
[04:55] <davecheney> that will be a big problem
[04:55] <wallyworld_> cause i specified --upload-tools and so the tools would be wrong
[04:55] <davecheney> if you use upload tools, it will always use the series of your machine
[04:55] <davecheney> that was a battle I was unable to win
[04:55] <davecheney> wallyworld_: maybe add your question to the agenda, https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/document/d/19bpZCZNWDYuRMVGvq66YcPThpirQAz1MRYnOMV6QHxo/edit#heading=h.3hs0dshzcf8k
[04:55] <wallyworld_> but it calls them "..qantal....tar.gz" doesn't it
[04:55] <wallyworld_> and so findToold would fail
[04:56] <wallyworld_> findTools
[04:56] <davecheney> yeah, pass --debug or -v for the gorey details
[04:56] <wallyworld_> doesn't explain why mongo login fail though
[04:58] <davecheney> i think the ssl cert provides the tunnel, but you still need a username/password
[04:58] <davecheney> for mongo
[04:58] <davecheney> the debug data should be on the bootstrap node in /var/log/juju/
[05:08] <wallyworld_> davecheney: yeah, -v or logs unhelpful, just lots of this
[05:08] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 15:01:50 JUJU state: opening state; mongo addresses: ["<IP_ADDRESS>:37017"]; entity ""
[05:08] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 15:01:50 JUJU state: connecting to <IP_ADDRESS>:37017
[05:08] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 15:01:50 JUJU state: connection established
[05:08] <wallyworld_> 2013/02/26 15:01:51 JUJU juju status command failed: cannot log in to admin database: auth fails
[05:08] <wallyworld_> error: cannot log in to admin database: auth fails
[05:08] <wallyworld_> i'll dig further and see what i can find
[05:08] <davecheney> ok, that is fatal
[05:08] <davecheney> once that happens
[05:09] <davecheney> nobody has the password
[05:09] <davecheney> and it's game over
[05:10] <wallyworld_> hmmm. the password ran away then. sneaky
[07:16] <rogpeppe> mornin' lal
[07:16] <rogpeppe> "all" even!
[07:50] <jam> rogpeppe: I just found something even more interesting for the bootstrap case. It would appear that we are calling 'putFakeTools' which actually only uploads 1-2bytes of garbage data, but we *still* call go install to build jujud, even though we aren't actually uploading it. At least, that is what I get if I understand how to 'Tell()' on a file.
[07:50] <rogpeppe> jam: putFakeTools only works for some cases
[07:51] <jam> rogpeppe: so for 'go test -gocheck.f BootstrapMultiple' it spends 5s in 'building stuff', and the .tgz is 2 bytes long
[07:52] <rogpeppe> jam: putFakeTools won't work if someone calls Bootstrap with uploadTools=true
[07:52] <jam> rogpeppe: so I'm not sure if it is putFake or not, it doesn't really matter. The point is that it spends 2+s to end up with 2 bytes in a .tgz
[07:53] <jam> Though the fact that we are spending time in flate means I could be wrong, and I'm trying to sort those things out.
[07:53] <rogpeppe> jam: actually, it ends up with all the tools in a tgz too
[07:53] <rogpeppe> jam: the fake tools are put into the public bucket AFAIR
[07:54] <jam> rogpeppe: I'm just putting print statements into "buildTools" and see it takes 2.1s, however, statting the file shows far more space than 'Seek(1, 0)' did, because I had the order of parameters wrong
[07:54] <jam> I needed Seek(0, 1)
[07:54] <jam> anyway, there is more content, which at least means we have content.
[07:54] <jam> so that part is good
[07:54] <jam> We aren't compiling and then not actually using it.
[07:55] <rogpeppe> jam: you can use os.SEEK_END, BTW
[07:55] <rogpeppe> jam: right
[07:56] <rogpeppe> jam: well, we *aren't* actually using it, 'cos we never actually call the executable for real (actually, we do, in PutTools, but that's just a sanity check)
[07:56] <jam> rogpeppe: sure, but Seek takes ints, so you can do Seek(os.SEEK_END, 0) just as easily as Seek(2, ))
[07:57] <rogpeppe> jam: nope.
[07:57] <rogpeppe> jam: (try it)
[07:58] <jam> rogpeppe: interesting, I was thinking int was the typeless const, but I see it is the typed value. Is there a way to get untyped or you just have to use "const Foo = 1234"
[07:58] <jam> ?
[07:58] <rogpeppe> jam: yeah, an unadorned constant is untyped
[07:59] <rogpeppe> jam: it still has some type-like information though (floats are different from ints are different from strings)
[08:03] <rogpeppe> dimitern, mramm: meeting?
[08:03] <jam> mgz doesn't seem to be here yet, though he mentioned he had to run on Chromebook which doesn't have an arm binary for Hangouts? So we probably shouldn't wait for him.
[08:14] <davecheney> https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoQnpJ43nBkJdEFIZVg0dnN0SXNNREpTMTd6X1FMS1E#gid=1
[08:42] <wallyworld_> FAIL: current_test.go:56: CurrentSuite.TestCurrentSeries
[08:42] <wallyworld_> current_test.go:65:
[08:42] <wallyworld_>     // If the command fails (for instance if we're running on some other
[08:42] <wallyworld_>     // platform) then CurrentSeries should be unknown.
[08:42] <wallyworld_>     c.Assert(s, Equals, "n/a")
[08:42] <wallyworld_> ... obtained string =
[08:43] <wallyworld_> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
[08:43] <wallyworld_> FAIL: current_test.go:56: CurrentSuite.TestCurrentSeries
[08:43] <wallyworld_> current_test.go:65:
[08:43] <wallyworld_>     // If the command fails (for instance if we're running on some other
[08:43] <wallyworld_>     // platform) then CurrentSeries should be unknown.
[08:43] <wallyworld_>     c.Assert(s, Equals, "n/a")
[08:43] <wallyworld_> ... obtained string = "quantal"
[08:43] <wallyworld_> ... expected string = "n/a"
[08:43] <wallyworld_> OOPS: 6 passed, 1 FAILED
[08:45] <jam> wallyworld_: what does "lsb_release" do, and "lsb_release -c" ?
[08:46] <jam> wallyworld_: it looks like the command 'lsb_release' is failing for you, but /etc/lsb-release has the right content so Juju knows what release it should be, and the test is faulty.
[08:46] <wallyworld_> jam:
[08:46] <wallyworld_> ian@wallyworld:~/juju/go/src/launchpad.net/juju-core$ lsb_release
[08:46] <wallyworld_> Traceback (most recent call last):
[08:46] <wallyworld_>   File "/usr/bin/lsb_release", line 26, in <module>
[08:46] <wallyworld_>     import lsb_release
[08:46] <wallyworld_> EOFError: EOF read where not expected
[08:46] <wallyworld_> so my system is screwed somehow
[08:47] <jam> wallyworld_: right, so that is why the test is failing (lsb_release is failing incorrectly), I don't know yet why 'import lsb_release' is failing
[08:47] <wallyworld_> ok, np.
[08:47] <jam> wallyworld_: ls /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/lsb_release.py
[08:48] <wallyworld_> ian@wallyworld:~/juju/go/src/launchpad.net/juju-core$ ls -l /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/lsb_release.py
[08:48] <wallyworld_> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 38 Oct 24 10:34 /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/lsb_release.py -> ../../../share/pyshared/lsb_release.py
[08:48] <wallyworld_> ian@wallyworld:~/juju/go/src/launchpad.net/juju-core$
[08:49] <wallyworld_> jam:
[08:49] <wallyworld_> ian@wallyworld:~/juju/go/src/launchpad.net/juju-core$ python /usr/share/pyshared/lsb_release.py
[08:49] <wallyworld_> {'RELEASE': '12.10', 'CODENAME': 'quantal', 'ID': 'Ubuntu', 'DESCRIPTION': 'Ubuntu 12.10'}
[08:49] <wallyworld_> ['core-2.0-amd64', 'core-2.0-noarch', 'core-3.0-amd64', 'core-3.0-noarch', 'core-3.1-amd64', 'core-3.1-noarch', 'core-3.2-amd64', 'core-3.2-noarch', 'core-4.0-amd64', 'core-4.0-noarch']
[08:49] <wallyworld_> so it sort of works
[08:49] <wallyworld_> i'm hungry and it's way past dinner time here, so let's chat later about it
[08:49] <jam> wallyworld_: np
[08:51] <jam> morning mgz
[08:51] <mgz> hey jam
[08:52] <jam> mgz: so did you take the opportunity of not having G+ to sleep in, or were you outside feeding the chix?
[08:52] <mgz> both :D
[08:52] <mgz> four eggs this morning
[08:53] <jam> that sounds small, but I don't know how many chix they have
[08:54] <mgz> five, so only one was slacking
[08:55] <jam> though if you think about it, having a body that produces a whole egg that often is pretty crazy
[08:58] <fwereade__> bbiab, popping over to dimiter's
[09:15] <dimitern> hey, fwereade is here, if anyone needs him
[09:17] <mgz> give the guy an internet connection dimitern :)
[11:00] <bac> thanks for the review rogpeppe
[11:01] <rogpeppe> bac: np. i should go back and look at the ones that happened when i was away. from my mobile phone they looked fine :-)
[11:10] <rogpeppe> dimitern: if fwereade's with you, perhaps you could mention that it'd be much appreciated if he passed his canny eye over https://codereview.appspot.com/7398050/
[11:11] <rogpeppe> or reviews anyone else for that matter - it's a later-comer prereq for another CL
[11:15] <bac> rogpeppe: i've made the changes you requested.
[11:15] <rogpeppe> bac: thanks
[11:15]  * bac out for 1.5 hours or so
[11:18] <rogpeppe> bac: replied
[11:19]  * TheMue is at lunch
[11:20]  * rogpeppe passes TheMue some slices of delicious ham.
[11:35] <jam> mgz: we can hear you type, but not you talk
[11:39] <mramm> jam, mgz, TheMue, wallyworld_, thumper, rogpeppe, fwereade, dimitern:  Sorry I missed the meeting.  My laptop met an untimely end yesterday due to close contact with some coffee.
[11:40] <fwereade> mramm, we heard... bad luck :(
[11:40] <mramm> jam, mgz, TheMue, wallyworld_, thumper, rogpeppe, fwereade, dimitern:  After which I spent about 8 hours getting things restored to an old machine, and then it was an hour before the meeting and I was going to stay up
[11:40] <wallyworld_> it could at least have been alcohol
[11:40] <dimitern> mramm: lol, that's bad
[11:40] <rogpeppe> wallyworld_: well, no wasted booze at any rate. there's a silver lining to every cloud.
[11:41] <wallyworld_> true :-)
[11:41] <mramm> rogpeppe: wallyworld_: very true
[11:41] <TheMue> mramm: That sound hard. Coffee as pure energy for the developer is still bad for computers.Something's wrong here. ;)
[11:41] <mramm> yea
[11:43] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Thx for the ham, had put it on my flatbread.
[11:43] <mramm> so, I have my old mac working, and while I don't have dual boot on it yet I do at least have ubuntu on it in a VM with *almost* all my settings and documents back from git repo's
[11:43] <mramm> but it made me realize that my backup strategy on ubuntu was a bit of manual kludgery
[11:44] <mramm> but it worked mostly
[11:46] <TheMue> mramm: Not everything in the cloud? ;)
[11:47] <mramm> well, it there was a bit of stuff in the cloud, a bit of stuff in git repositories, and then a "copy the home folder" to an external drive bit
[11:47] <mramm> all of which provided some "backup"
[11:47] <mramm> and all of which actually worked out fine
[11:47] <mramm> but there were a lot of manual steps to restore
[11:48] <TheMue> Yep
[11:49] <mramm> anyway, I'm back.
[11:50] <mramm> my intention was to get everything fixed before the meeting and have no work related downtime because of the laptop death
[11:50] <mramm> but my intention was foiled by a comfy chair in my office!
[11:51]  * TheMue just tries to imagine this picture
[11:56] <rogpeppe> fairly trivial CL if anyone wants to take a look:  https://codereview.appspot.com/7391051
[11:56] <rogpeppe> also, i'm still looking for another review of https://codereview.appspot.com/7398050/ so i can propose the branch that uses it as a prereq
[11:57] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Will take a look at both.
[11:57] <rogpeppe> TheMue: thanks
[12:02] <TheMue> rogpeppe: First review done, now the next.
[12:06] <fwereade> mgz, ping
[12:06] <TheMue> rogpeppe: 2nd one done too.
[12:06] <rogpeppe> TheMue: tyvm
[12:07] <fwereade> mgz, am I right in thinking that the openstack metadata service does not expose instance-id until version 2012-08-10 ?
[12:15] <mgz> fwereade: folsom or later
[12:15] <mgz> so yup.
[12:25] <fwereade> mgz, this seems to suggest otherwise: http://docs.openstack.org/essex/openstack-compute/install/apt/content/running-an-instance.html
[12:25] <fwereade> mgz: cloud-setup: checking http://<IP_ADDRESS>/2009-04-04/meta-data/instance-id
[12:25] <fwereade> mgz, I guess that's just a lie? :)
[12:26] <mgz> fwereade: that gives you the i-0000000 form, which is no good to man nor beast
[12:27] <mgz> (in the context of trying to do openstack operations)
[12:27]  * dimitern lunch
[12:28] <fwereade> mgz, wait, what's wrong with that? is that form not used in the API?
[12:28] <mgz> there's no correlation between the uuid you need to do operations via the openstack api, and the integer id used the in ec2 compat api, and there's no api call to map between them, it's all hidden in the backend db
[12:28] <fwereade> mgz, oh ffs
[12:28] <fwereade> mgz, ok, thanks
[12:28] <mgz> folsom adds openstack specific data to the metadata service, which we can use
[12:28] <fwereade> mgz, so we currently can't work pre-folsom regardless?
[12:30]  * fwereade lunches, thanks mgz
[12:31] <TheMue> fwereade: Enjoy.
[13:10] <rogpeppe> can someone other than me have a look at this CL please, so that Brad can submit: https://codereview.appspot.com/7384058/
[13:13] <benji> m_3: hi, I have a small branch charmhelpers branch up for review; I hear you are the guy to see about that: https://code.launchpad.net/~benji/charm-tools/bug-1130793-add-log-option-escaping/+merge/150442
[13:18] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Done
[13:18] <rogpeppe> TheMue: thanks
[13:54] <niemeyer> Yo!
[13:59] <mgz> fwereade: whoops, missed the last question. so, gojuju doesn't work on pre-folsom currently, as the pyjuju code predates folsom, it has a cunning workaround, that gojuju could also adopt as needed (it stashes the uuid in storage)
[14:11] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: hiya!
[14:11] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i've just run across a couple of weirdnesses in goyaml - i wonder if you can tell me if they're expected behaviour or bugs
[14:55] <rogpeppe> a fairly small review anyone? https://codereview.appspot.com/7399054
[14:56] <rogpeppe> fwereade: it contains two things that should please you
[14:59] <fwereade> rogpeppe, cool, need to kanban too
[14:59] <rogpeppe> fwereade: just going there
[15:00] <rogpeppe> mramm: kanban meeting?
[15:05] <benji> m_3: ping
[15:07] <m_3> benji: pong
[15:07] <benji> m_3: hi, I have a small branch charmhelpers branch up for review; I hear you are the guy to see about that: https://code.launchpad.net/~benji/charm-tools/bug-1130793-add-log-option-escaping/+merge/150442
[15:07] <dimitern> rogpeppe: reviewed
[15:10] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Sure
[15:11] <m_3> benji: yikes... tomorrow's first chance for me (see juju-gui)... I'm prepping for two talks later today
[15:11] <benji> m_3: apparently you and Gary are discussing this in juju-gui, so nevermind
[15:15] <m_3> benji: ack.... ping me tomorrow if you haven't gotten it through
[15:16] <niemeyer> m_3: Way to go
[15:17] <niemeyer> m_3: The amount of activity around charms is looking great, btw
[15:17] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i filed a bug report (that may or may not be spurious) https://bugs.launchpad.net/goyaml/+bug/1133337
[15:17] <_mup_> Bug #1133337: unmarshalling map into *string has odd behaviour  <goyaml:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1133337 >
[15:17] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Thanks!
[15:19] <m_3> niemeyer: thanks!  we're doing a lot of talking :)... still need to do more charm cleaning though
[15:20] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i encountered these issues when trying to deal with service configuration in a moderately sane way, BTW.
[15:25] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Cool
[15:26] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I'll put that in the queue and see what would be a reasonable answer
[15:26] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: thanks. for the time being, i'm just treating null as the string "null"
[15:26] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: What does that mean?
[15:27] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: This is certainly wrong, if it means what I think it menas
[15:27] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: People should be able to set a configuration value to the string "null"
[15:28] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: they can do that. they can't use null as to delete an attribute though.
[15:28] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: That's fine.. we don't have that semantic defined yet
[15:29] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah. we chatted about it though, so i was considering doing it.
[15:29] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: i'm not sure what user expectations are tbh
[15:31] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Sure, and I hope we can implement it
[15:31] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: I don't think that's a typical case people think about
[15:31] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: So much so that the whole fixup didn't come from a user request
[15:31] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: yeah. i suspect that deleting a attribute is a pretty rare operation, so i'm not too concerned
[15:34] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: ha, perhaps you were talking about goyaml semantics.
[15:38] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: No, the former
[15:55] <rogpeppe> TheMue: any chance of that promised review? https://codereview.appspot.com/7399054/
[15:55] <TheMue> rogpeppe: Will be in in a few seconds. Mostly LGTM, only one "feeling". ;)
[15:58] <TheMue> rogpeppe: It's in.
[15:59] <rogpeppe> TheMue: thanks!
[15:59] <TheMue> rogpeppe: yw
[17:56] <dimitern> a small review anyone? https://codereview.appspot.com/7405049
[18:07] <rogpeppe> dimitern: looking
[18:13] <dimitern> rogpeppe: cheers
[18:15] <rogpeppe> dimitern: reviewed
[18:15] <dimitern> i'm seeing an error running go test ./... on state/statecmd/ServiceGet
[18:15] <dimitern> rogpeppe: tyvm
[18:16] <dimitern> that's the error I'm getting - running on just pulled trunk: https://codereview.appspot.com/7405049
[18:17] <dimitern> oops - this is it - http://paste.ubuntu.com/5568327/
[18:28] <dimitern> so william proposed CLs which are a direct result of pair programming to need one LGTM
[18:28] <dimitern> what do you think about it?
[18:40] <rogpeppe> dimitern: hmm, that looks bad. might be my fault, but i'm already running really late and have to go.
[18:41] <dimitern> rogpeppe: no worries
[18:41] <rogpeppe> dimitern: it's a trivial fix if you wanna do it
[18:41] <dimitern> rogpeppe: sure?
[18:41] <rogpeppe> dimitern: (in the test only, i think)
[18:41] <dimitern> rogpeppe: ok, I'll propose it later
[18:41] <rogpeppe> dimitern, all: see ya tomorrow
[18:42] <dimitern> rogpeppe: g'night
[23:33] <jcastro> davecheney: Is this a charm problem or a juju problem: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5569147/
[23:58] <jcastro> davecheney: ah, does juju-log exist in the go version?


[05:50] <slangasek> ara: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/3833/442, the test case instructions say I should see a pop-up about incomplete language support and I didn't
[17:58]  * mok0 is here
[18:05] <mok0> The meeting of the backporters team will be in 55 minutes
[18:05] <mok0> at 19:00 UTC
[19:00] <siretart`> mok0: that would be now :-)
[19:00] <mok0> Yep
[19:00] <mok0> Should I msg ppl?
[19:01] <siretart`> good idea!
[19:02] <mok0> Besides us, only 4 are on IRC atm
[19:03] <ScottK> Hello
[19:03] <mok0> Hi ScottK, now we are 3
[19:03] <ScottK> Let's just vote NCommander will do all the work and end the meeting.
[19:03] <mok0> Hehe
[19:04] <mok0> Let's wait a couple of minutes to see if anyone else shows up
[19:04] <mok0> atlas still compiling over here...
[19:05] <mok0> OK, these are the things I'd like to discuss:
[19:06] <mok0> - General review of backports status
[19:06] <mok0> - Review of backports queues
[19:06] <mok0> - How to do backports with the new source package format
[19:06] <mok0> - LP update sometime late in the karmic cycle destroyed many components, f.ex. bzr, and fixes are still not available.
[19:06] <mok0> - The required "sponsoring" from the archive-admin team destroys my workflow and is demotivating.
[19:06] <mok0> -- My bzr backport is stuck at bug 533042
[19:07] <mok0> ... perhaps too much for 1 meeting :-)
[19:08] <mok0> Comments?
[19:08] <siretart`> let's start with the first :-)
[19:09] <mok0> OK, so the queue is spread over several projects in LP
[19:09] <mok0> Is there any priority here?
[19:09] <siretart`> may I ask first who is actually working on the backports queue?
[19:09] <siretart`> I'm asking because I know that I'm not
[19:10] <mok0> Well, that's where I started
[19:10] <mok0> As a new member, I was looking for somewhere to start.
[19:10] <mok0> Personally, I think the bzr backport is the most important one atm
[19:11] <mok0> It is quite straightforward, but does require backporting som new packages
[19:12] <mok0> However, I don't think the workflow of "processing backport requests" is satisfactory
[19:12] <mok0> It is much too random
[19:12] <mok0> We need to be quite aggressive trying to keep old distros up to date
[19:13] <siretart`> I've just read the wiki page, some parts indicate that a PPA will be involved in the future, and further at the bottom, the PPA seems to be already part of the process
[19:13] <mok0> link?
[19:13] <siretart`> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
[19:14] <mok0> Oh, yes, that's a mega-document
[19:15] <mok0> Too bad jdong is not here
[19:16] <siretart`> I suspect the reason for having multiple lp projects is that different members review requests for their 'pet' version only
[19:16] <mok0> ok, yeah I guessed that
[19:16] <mok0> I think the problem is that nobody has a pet version
[19:16] <mok0> ;-)
[19:17] <mok0> Which is why I sent around the email
[19:17] <mok0> It seems that devs loose interest in a distro once it has been released
[19:17] <mok0> that is a major problem I think
[19:18] <mok0> Even hardy is poorly supported.
[19:18] <siretart`> given 288 open bugs for just hardy-backports only, I think it's fairly obvious that the team currently doesn't meet its goals
[19:19] <mok0> Indeed
[19:19] <siretart`> well, hardy seems to be the toughest release, it has most of the reports
[19:20] <siretart`> intrpid with 143, jaunty with 95, karmic 'only' 57
[19:20] <mok0> I have a hardy box (virtual) and ran into the problem that it can't fetch LP branches
[19:20] <siretart`> sorry? what do you mean with that?
[19:21] <mok0> On my hardy box, I could not do: bzr branch lp:blahblah
[19:21] <siretart`> ah, the bzr backport. I see
[19:21] <mok0> I had to get the newest bzr
[19:21] <mok0> Also ubuntu-dev-tools has lots of bugs, but that doesn't hit many ppl
[19:22] <siretart`> well, I think a first step could be to stage all necessary packages in the PPA, and then talk to the archive admins to copy from there
[19:22] <mok0> (because it uses the new launchpadlib)
[19:22] <mok0> I agree.
[19:22] <siretart`> but that's a specific problem which can be handled
[19:22] <siretart`> we were discussing a more general one before
[19:23] <siretart`> which I don't really see an approach for
[19:23] <mok0> However, having to be sponsored by the archive admins is annoying
[19:23] <mok0> It interrupts my workflow, and I tend to forget what I was doing
[19:23] <siretart`> as said, using a PPA as staging area seems appropriate to me.
[19:23] <mok0> yeah, perhaps
[19:23] <siretart`> the archive admins can then batch-process accumulated packages
[19:24] <mok0> Do we have a central ppa for such things?
[19:24] <siretart`> perhaps we should issue a call for help in the forums and/or the fridge?
[19:24] <mok0> Help for..?
[19:24] <mok0> testing?
[19:24] <siretart`> according to the documentation, that would be https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-backporters/+archive/ppa
[19:25] <siretart`> it doesn't look very used, though
[19:25] <mok0> OK, and so, as members of the team, we can all upload to that I suppose?
[19:26] <siretart`> AFAIUI yes
[19:26] <mok0> I'm cool with that... wonder what the archive-admins say.
[19:27] <mok0> I still think it's a bit of a detour
[19:28] <siretart`> well, sort-of yes. but I feel that's the easiest way to provide test packages
[19:28] <mok0> It is double work
[19:28] <mok0> We could just as well upload directly to the archive
[19:28] <siretart`> it would be awesome to have a 'backport this' button on launchpad that creates an backport in ones private ppa
[19:28] <mok0> heh yes
[19:29] <siretart`> what's the problem with uploading directly to the archive?
[19:29] <siretart`> I remember that I did that once or twice. but that was ages ago
[19:29] <mok0> I was told it was preferred not to
[19:29] <siretart`> it isn't. but in some cases inevitable
[19:29] <mok0> Apparently the archive-admins have a script
[19:30] <siretart`> it's mainly the same reason why syncs should be uploaded, although it's technically possible
[19:30] <siretart`> the archive admin's script is way safer than manually fiddling with the changes file
[19:31] <mok0> Well, yes, but then the backport archive is not as sensitive
[19:31] <mok0> we have fewer "customers"
[19:32] <siretart`> IIRC, the 'script' was created specifically for backporters, because at that time, jdong wasn't a motu yet, but still was proposing backports. going via bugreports and that script was perfectly adequate at that time
[19:32] <mok0> I see
[19:32] <mok0> Looking at bug 533042
[19:32] <siretart`> as far as I understand your 'complaint' is that you feel the latency caused by the archive admins is too high?
[19:33] <mok0> you can see that it's stuck
[19:33] <mok0> yes exactly
[19:33] <mok0> That one is trivial
[19:33] <siretart`> ah, I thought you were talking about bzr for hardy
[19:33] <mok0> this is a dependency, it needs to go in first
[19:33] <siretart`> do we have a list of all pending packages for hady-backports?
[19:33] <mok0> build-dep
[19:34] <siretart`> well, but in that case, using the PPA seems ideal to me
[19:34] <siretart`> there you can testbuild and stage all related package, and then ask the archive admin to batch process them
[19:34] <mok0> yeah I suppose
[19:35] <siretart`> so you wait only one time, not n times for n build-dependencies
[19:35] <mok0> In that case, I could just point them to the bazaar team's PPA :-)
[19:36] <siretart`> I think that those packages don't follow the backports package naming policy
[19:36] <mok0> Probably... but the ones in the ppa wouldn't do that either
[19:37] <siretart`> moreover, perhaps the bazaar folks could be integrated into the backports process? as in, they get authority to request or even upload to -backports directly ro something?
[19:37] <siretart`> hm, that's a good point
[19:37] <siretart`> well, removing the ~ppaN suffix seems straight forward
[19:37] <mok0> What I was doing was getting the same versions from karmic, lucid... and so on, that they had in their ppa
[19:38] <mok0> Then I test built them all, and tested that they worked
[19:38] <mok0> Then I filed bugs
[19:38] <mok0> Now I am waiting...
[19:38] <mok0> And I still have to go and check once in a while to see if things went right
[19:39] <mok0> That is very disruptive to my workflow, since I have other things to do than Ubuntu
[19:39] <siretart`> you have my sympathy. I'm not sure what's the best way to proceed, though
[19:39] <mok0> I spent half a day checking all the bzr stuff, but now I have forgotten everything I did ... :-(
[19:40] <mok0> So it's extra energy needed to go back every time and check again
[19:40] <mok0> I'd much rather edit the changelog and get it over with
[19:41] <siretart`> I wonder why the bug you've quoted about talks about subverty only
[19:41] <siretart`> and does not open task for every package involved in that backport. that would make the actual problem more visibl
[19:41] <siretart`> e
[19:41] <mok0> doesn't it say it's a dependency of bzr and other packages will follow?
[19:42] <mok0> OK, so perhaps we should end the meeting by discussing the issue of the source pacakge format.
[19:43] <siretart`> ok
[19:43] <mok0> We are going to have problems backporting from lucid
[19:43] <siretart`> ah, because of source format 3?
[19:43] <mok0> Yes
[19:43] <mok0> Packages wont build
[19:43] <siretart`> in hardy, yes
[19:43] <siretart`> I think in later releases, that should do, no?
[19:44] <mok0> I'm not sure
[19:44] <mok0> Other packages have problems b/c of debhelper
[19:44] <mok0> and so, we really ought to backport the latest version of that to the whole line
[19:44] <siretart`> that seems to me valid candidates for direct uploads, where those changes need to be reverted
[19:45] <mok0> yes
[19:45] <mok0> I've done it a few times to packages installed locally here
[19:46] <mok0> It's not very difficult to change it
[19:46] <mok0> It's just work
[19:46] <mok0> We should be able to backport almost everything from lucid to karmic
[19:47] <mok0> There are not any major transitions I am aware of
[19:47] <mok0> so, my priorities are hardy and karmic
[19:47] <siretart`> I may be biased because I'm familiar with debian's backports.org, but I really don't see much problems in direct uplodas
[19:48] <mok0> neither do I
[19:48] <siretart`> in backports.org, all uploads are direct
[19:48] <mok0> I do think users are properly warned when activating backports
[19:48] <mok0> And furthermore, the number of bugs against backported packages is very low
[19:49] <siretart`> AFAIR, ubuntu's backports are not have NotAutomatic: yes
[19:49] <mok0> If there are any at all
[19:49] <siretart`> which I consider a great feature of backports.org
[19:49] <mok0> I am not really familiar with it
[19:49] <siretart`> perhaps we should propose it
[19:50] <mok0> Sure
[19:50] <siretart`> it basically prevents packages from being automatically updated to the version in backports
[19:50] <siretart`> in debian, you'll have to issue 'apt-get install -t lenny-backports $foo' to install a package from bpo
[19:50] <mok0> That's in apt.conf, right?
[19:50] <siretart`> no, that's in the Release file on the mirrors
[19:51] <mok0> I see
[19:51] <siretart`> compare http://backports.org/backports.org/dists/lenny-backports/Release with http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hardy-backports/Release
[19:51] <mok0> aha
[19:51] <siretart`> however with that turned on, I fear that synaptics will be terribly confused, and so are our users
[19:51] <mok0> Yeah that may be a problem
[19:52] <mok0> Unless the gui knows how to deal with it
[19:52] <mok0> Actually it may, I am not sure
[19:52] <siretart`> ah, now  I see another problem with using the PPA: it gets only built on i386 and amd64. so our powerpc and arm users are left in the cold with that
[19:52] <siretart`> which I think is fair for staging packages, but not for 'official' backports
[19:53] <mok0> That another issue, yes
[19:53] <siretart`> it seems we're running out of time, 7 minutes left
[19:53] <mok0> Heh, yes
[19:54] <siretart`> can we perhaps summarize? we badly lack manpower, our processes seem to complex for the amount of requests
[19:54] <siretart`> complex in the sense: too much overhead
[19:54] <mok0> We do lack manpower, and it is a bit disappointing that it wasn't possible to drum up the team
[19:55] <mok0> I was thinking that perhaps we could arrange a session once a week or so, and take a look at the queues, distribute the work and get going
[19:55] <mok0> but we need to be more than 2 ppl
[19:55] <siretart`> perhaps some sort of motu school session or something could help with recruiting?
[19:56] <mok0> Perhaps
[19:56] <mok0> That would need a senior member of the team though :-)
[19:56] <siretart`> indeed
[19:57] <mok0> ... and perhaps we need to revise the workflow, but that also needs participation of more ppl than 2 in the discussion
[19:57] <siretart`> I'd need to familarize myself with backports again, I have to admit that I havn't processed a single request since years now
[19:57] <mok0> Heh
[19:58] <mok0> I have been doing quite some backporting for my local machines
[19:58] <siretart`> perhaps we manage to catch jdong or ScottK and ask them for their opinion on the matter
[19:58] <mok0> Yes
[19:59] <siretart`> ideally, we can come up on a 'backport triaging and processing howto for backport team members' or something
[19:59] <mok0> I suppose they will go and read the transscript of the meeting
[19:59] <mok0> good idea
[20:00] <siretart`> ok. let's hope they'll read it
[20:00] <mok0> In principle, jdongs wiki page has most of the information, but it is aimed at both users and developers
[20:00] <siretart`> yes, that can probably be split
[20:00] <mok0> I think so
[20:00] <siretart`> there is really too much information there
[20:00] <siretart`> do you have some time left to write some minutes of the last hour?
[20:01] <mok0> Yes, it should be split in documents for 1) users 2) testers 3) developers
[20:01] <siretart`> oh, that's sounds good
[20:01] <siretart`> I haven't thought about testers, but they are important as well
[20:01] <mok0> I guess it's basically users who want to take the trouble of reporting bugs
[20:02] <mok0> I haven't seen any bug reports from testers thoug
[20:02] <mok0> h
[20:02] <siretart`> I think that's more a role description
[20:02] <siretart`> you cannot really seperate users from testers from developers
[20:02] <mok0> What did you mean, if I have some time left?
[20:03] <siretart`> s/left// :-)
[20:03] <mok0> Well, some ppl just want to know how to activate the archive
[20:04] <siretart`> that's easy: convert bug to support request :-)
[20:04] <mok0> A few of them will also want to request backports
[20:04] <mok0> A few of them are willing to test and report back
[20:04] <mok0> ... and a handful of devs need to know the howtos :-)
[20:05] <siretart`> anyway, time's up, I need to see after my wife now :-)
[20:05] <mok0> OK thanks for showing up siretart`!!
[20:05] <siretart`> sure thing. thanks for your work on reviving ubuntu backports :-)
[20:05] <mok0> Thanks :-) See you later!