[00:00] <MenZa> Cheers, tonyyarusso.
[00:00] <elky> the b/tards just started on #debian
[00:00] <tonyyarusso> (Not about the "can't change" part - he can, but it's less _likely_)
[00:01] <MenZa> indeed
[00:04] <MenZa> W/ 28
[00:49] <Flannel> Howdy Base10k, how can we help you?
[00:49] <Base10k> Hi all, I'm trying to find out when (and why) i was banned from #ubuntu
[00:49] <Flannel> Ah.
[00:50] <Flannel> right, I see it now.
[00:50] <nalioth> Base10k: clean up your ident, and you should have no problems
[00:50] <Flannel> Base10k: Your ident
[00:50]  * Base10k doh
[00:50] <Base10k> cheers
[00:52] <base10k> that fixed it, thanks
[00:52] <base10k> ttyl
[00:53] <Seeker`> can someone say the forkbomb, want to see if it sets off my hilight
[00:53] <nalioth> say what?
[00:54] <Seeker`> the :(){... thing
[00:55] <MenZa> Seeker`:
[00:55] <MenZa> :(){ :|:& };:
[00:55] <MenZa> !dangerous
[00:55] <Seeker`> ty
[00:55] <MenZa> (Just for the sake of logging) :3
[01:00] <maco> if someone puts a bad command in a channel, do they get a mark in the bt?
[01:00] <maco> they said "dont do that" a minute later, and i told them id kick them if they pulled that again
[01:01] <elky> @mark
[01:01] <elky> you likely need bantracker fu for that though
[01:01] <maco> ok so marks are only for if they *do* get kicked
[01:01] <maco> not if they were threatened with a kick
[01:02] <elky> no kick needed.
[01:02] <elky> if i say "@mark maco is a bad girl" and you leave yourself. then it still works.
[01:03] <maco> haha ok
[01:03] <Seeker`> you mark stuff that is potentailly useful at a later date, but doesn't get autologged by the bot - which it does on kicks and bans I think
[01:04] <elky> yep
[01:05] <elky> such as someone talking about ban evading who stops when asked. you may like to mark them for future reference.
[01:05] <maco> can you mark Ev0luti0n_ for inappropriate topics in #kubuntu?
[01:05] <maco> i kicked him with "not appropriate" comment
[01:05] <maco> he's continuing :-/
[01:05] <elky> then kick him again?
[01:05] <Seeker`> surely if they were kicked for something and they continute, that warrents a further kick / ban
[01:06] <elky> not doing so will only teach him that he can get away with it
[01:06] <maco> nalioth: v1ttu too
[01:06] <elky> ah, uncle nalioth to the rescue?
[01:07] <maco> yes
[01:12] <MenZa> lolman in #ubuntu is using a !google script.
[01:14] <DigitalKiwi> hi MenZa
[01:14] <MenZa> DigitalKiwi: Hi DigitalKiwi. I was planning on /query'ing you, but I assumed, from your last line in #ubuntu, that you wouldn't take that kindly. So there you go, now you're here.
[01:14] <MenZa> DigitalKiwi: What was that all about?
[01:15] <DigitalKiwi> which bit
[01:15] <MenZa> [2009-11-09 01:13:07 UTC] < DigitalKiwi> you guys cause perpetual noobdom with your spoonfeeding constantly :/
[01:16] <DigitalKiwi> hmm
[01:17] <MenZa> So?
[01:18] <DigitalKiwi> thinking of how to respond
[01:18] <MenZa> It doesn't seem like you can come up with a sound argument for it - should I take that as such?
[01:19] <DigitalKiwi> I don't want to get banned ;P
[01:19] <DigitalKiwi> so I'm trying to word it nicely
[01:19] <MenZa> Aha.
[01:20] <DigitalKiwi> and clearly, mostly the clearly part
[01:21] <MenZa> I'll do my best to decipher it, and ask you to clarify a particular word if necessary.
[01:22] <DigitalKiwi> #ubuntu seems to have this view that contradicts my own, and that is to give people give every solution to the problem and never tell people how/why they got that solution, and not encourage people to look for the solution on their own for a few minutes
[01:22] <Seeker`> a lot of beginners just want the answers, they just want the solution
[01:23] <nalioth> Seeker`: huh?
[01:23] <Seeker`> they don't care about the thought process behind it
[01:23] <DigitalKiwi> they do, and they often demand that we give them it :/
[01:23] <MenZa> What, in my opinion, identifies a good guide over a bad one is one that explains the steps it goes through, so you get an idea of how things work.
[01:23] <MenZa> I try to be as verbose and explanatory as possible when I can.
[01:24] <nickrud> isn't that what #ubuntu is about, making sure a person's system works? A non-working system is one someone will spend little time learning
[01:24]  * MenZa casts English: +1 on everyone.
[01:24] <DigitalKiwi> but if all people do is give them the answer they will never learn how to solve their own problems, and waste other peoples time when the first google/forum/wiki search has the answer
[01:24] <MenZa> 'Waste' other people's time?
[01:25] <DigitalKiwi> and thus be at a disadvantage and always be a help vampire
[01:25] <MenZa> Noone's wasting my time in #ubuntu; I dedicate the time I use in #ubuntu to just that. No question is a waste or awry.
[01:25] <DigitalKiwi> what do they do when nobody in the channel knows their answer or gives up on them if they don't know how to google?
[01:25] <nickrud> I don't think that's what we do. I'm spending my time helping people,
[01:26] <MenZa> Not all Ubuntu users, unlike, say, 95% of Debian/Gentoo/Arch users, are geeks, who want to learn about the most intricate details of their systems. They just want it to work.
[01:26] <nickrud> Then they're in the same position they were when they came in. I've helped and taught people here for years; I don't mind doing either
[01:26]  * nalioth waves at the stranger named nickrud
[01:26]  * nickrud wonders who that is
[01:27] <DigitalKiwi> I'm not so much against giving people answers as much as giving people answers without explanation, or even against giving occasional answers a simple search would reveal, but more against giving people dozens of answers that a simple scanning of a man page or what not says,
[01:27] <MenZa> DigitalKiwi: See my above statement.
[01:28] <MenZa> I remember the first time I installed 5.10. I was dropped straight into a tty with no X. I asked an old friend of mine, and he gave me the command to re-configure xserver-xorg, I had X, I was happy and willing to continue exploring.
[01:28] <DigitalKiwi> yeah, i find that unfortunate but can't really do anything about it :( (the not geeks part)
[01:28] <MenZa> So, if we can't change the people we're trying to help, why don't we change the way that we provide help?
[01:29] <DigitalKiwi> But I still think that just giving a solution instead of teaching how to find the solution via forums or what not makes them at a disadvantage
[01:29] <Seeker`> some people don't care about forums etc.
[01:29] <Flannel> DigitalKiwi: How does "just google it" help them exactly?
[01:30] <Seeker`> others may care, but are just finding their feet in the OS, so won't understand the stuff required to fix the issue
[01:30] <nickrud> Not everyone wants to learn linux. It should not be required to use Ubuntu. Hence #ubuntu
[01:30] <DigitalKiwi> well just google it doesn't always help, but I do know that sometimes I ask a question, someone says google it, and I'm like "oh, I didn't think of that" and so I google it and am happy
[01:30]  * nalioth prefers to provide help following the old axiom "give a man a fish, and he'll eat for the day.  teach a man to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime."
[01:30] <Seeker`> yeah, but some people don't like fish
[01:30] <MenZa> nalioth: then he'll enquire about borrowing your gear, where to best rent a boat, where the best fishing spots are, etc.
[01:30] <Flannel> DigitalKiwi: If you know nothing about what you're doing, google isn't helpful.
[01:31] <nalioth> google isn't helpful if you _do_ know what you're doing
[01:31] <Seeker`> I could show my parents how to find answers, and they still wouldn't be any better off
[01:31] <nickrud> That's my preferred method as well. But they're not going to be eating fish daily, or even monthly. It's better to just get a fish a few times a year in that case.
[01:31] <DigitalKiwi> Flannel: more often than not googling an error message returns the solution
[01:31]  * nalioth has a long list of questions that have never been answered re: ubuntu
[01:31] <Seeker`> they just want a working system
[01:32] <nickrud> Nor should they be expected to understand the underpinnings, this isn't gentoo.
[01:32] <nickrud> SOUND <-- nalioth could you start with that one?
[01:32] <DigitalKiwi> google is actually pretty amazing... you can ask it a question the same as you would ask in #ubuntu and it's likely to give the answer >.>
[01:33] <Seeker`> some people don't care how linux works, or have any interest in learning how to do anything other than browse the web / check emails
[01:33] <nickrud> if you can sort though the chaff. I remember learning linux for the first time with google and nothing else.
[01:33] <Flannel> DigitalKiwi: No, it really doesn't.  It does *for* *you* because you know how to weed through the crap/bad answers/things that don't apply to you.
[01:33] <DigitalKiwi> gf calling we can continue later?
[01:33] <nickrud> god that was fun as hell :)
[01:33] <Flannel> DigitalKiwi: But for someone without any idea of what's right/wrong, it does no good.
[01:33] <DigitalKiwi> Flannel: maybe ubuntu should train people to google
[01:34] <Flannel> DigitalKiwi: You're right.  Since knowing how to use google is a requirement to use a computer.
[01:34] <nickrud> ubuntu should train system admins to google. Users should just jsue.
[01:34] <Flannel> DigitalKiwi: why don't we require everyone to learn how to design an IC while we're at it.
[01:35] <nickrud> anyway, I don't know why I'm in this convo, I haven't helped but a couple times in a year now
[01:35] <DigitalKiwi> knowing how to get answers is a basic requirement for survival ;p
[01:35] <MenZa> DigitalKiwi: Asking someone is generally a good start.
[01:35] <nickrud> yep. Ask those who know. I don't know how to repair a car. At all. But since I drive I should?
[01:36] <DigitalKiwi> it is economically wise to know how to ;-D
[01:36] <MenZa> Bing! 'Economically-wise'. It's not a requirement.
[01:36] <DigitalKiwi> please tell me you can at least change a tire ;_;
[01:36]  * MenZa can't.
[01:36]  * MenZa can't check his oil gauge, either.
[01:36] <MenZa> well, I don't *have* an oil gauge, but yeah.
[01:36] <nickrud> Not necessarily. My time might be better spend making money for a one day repair.
[01:37] <Seeker`> DigitalKiwi: so you can repair everything in your house?
[01:37] <DigitalKiwi> usually
[01:37] <Seeker`> you know how to make every food item you buy?
[01:37] <nickrud> rather than having no car while I look up the right repair techniques and practice
[01:37]  * DigitalKiwi has rebuilt transmissions
[01:37] <DigitalKiwi> for example
[01:38] <nickrud> Wonderful. But do you expect everyone to be able to do that?
[01:38] <DigitalKiwi> nop
[01:38] <Seeker`> so why expect everyone to be able to find out how to fix problems in ubuntu?
[01:38] <DigitalKiwi> but being able to google something is not the same as rebuilding a transmission >.>
[01:38] <nickrud> we see repairing ubuntu in the same light
[01:39] <Seeker`> for some people, it is
[01:39] <nickrud> understanding what google tells you (and making sure you're not using expired info) takes a lot of prior effort
[01:39]  * MenZa can see this discussion is reaching an end, hopefully, and runs off to make coffee.
[01:39] <DigitalKiwi> rebuilding a transmission requires a lot more time and equipment than knowing how to use google, which can be applied to a lot more than just fixing ubuntu
[01:39] <nickrud> I'm a google god (except when it comes to sound :).
[01:40] <Seeker`> DigitalKiwi: you seem to care about computers, so knowing how to google is important to you
[01:40] <nickrud> DigitalKiwi, you're expecting a certain level of knowledge on the part of new users. You should spend some time with simple users again, and understand what their wants and needs are. We are not here to force people to become proficient in linux.
[01:41] <MenZa> Hm, I thought of a pretty good analogy related to the car-driving one we had earlier.
[01:41] <MenZa> Maps.
[01:41] <MenZa> A lot of people, brilliant drivers as they may be, suck at reading maps. Myself included. I'll flip it the wrong way round, or miss the small roads and send myself on a large detour.
[01:42] <MenZa> The same goes for structuring a proper Google query. Are we talking a 32-bit or a 64-bit system? KDE or GNOME? Which distribution version? All these things.
[01:43] <MenZa> An old guide will, for instance, suggest that you use 'sudo /etc/init.d/blah (start|stop|restart)', where it's actually 'service blah (start|stop|restart)' now (or so I'm told).
[01:43] <MenZa> All these little things, which can make quite a difference.
[01:43] <MenZa> Aaaand, that's my monologue for the day.
[01:43] <Seeker`> there is too much information in the world for everyone to know everything
[01:44] <Seeker`> I know how to program / fix computers
[01:44] <Seeker`> someone else knows how to make furniture
[01:44] <Flannel> Seeker`: That's true.  The only solution is to take away MenZa's drivers license because he can't read maps.
[01:44] <DigitalKiwi> lawl
[01:44] <MenZa> heh
[01:44] <MenZa> I don't have one, Flannel. Nor do I drive. But the analogy was good!
[01:44] <Seeker`> I don't care if the furniture-maker doesn't want to learn about how to fix their computer, as long as they don't expect me to be able to make a sofa before I can sit on mine
[01:45] <Flannel> MenZa: Good thing too.  Be sure you learn to read maps properly before you try and get a license.
[01:45]  * MenZa shall.
[01:45] <MenZa> Although my phone doubles as a GPS...
[01:48] <MenZa> DigitalKiwi: I think you see the point we're trying to make
[01:50] <DigitalKiwi> yeah
[01:50] <MenZa> :)
[01:51] <MenZa> Thanks for joining. :)
[01:51] <DigitalKiwi> np
[01:52] <DigitalKiwi> should I leave now? :(
[01:52] <DigitalKiwi> I'd keep talking but gf is having crisis >.>
[01:53] <Flannel> DigitalKiwi: Feel free to come back when you're able to talk
[01:53] <DigitalKiwi> k
[01:53] <DigitalKiwi> thanks for the chat!  tata
[01:53] <MenZa> :)
[01:59] <Flannel> MenZa: I was just going to remove him the next time he said something stupid. But that works.
[02:00] <MenZa> Flannel: I'm talking to him in PM.
[02:00] <Flannel> Sounds good
[02:00] <MenZa> Asking him to have a read of the CoC and the Guidelines, and sent him a link.
[02:00] <Flannel> Be sure to point out that abbreviations/slang make it difficult for non-english speakers to participate
[02:01] <Flannel> If he's a reasonable person, giving him a reason for the rule carries a lot of clout
[02:04] <MenZa> Flannel: Well, most of what I'm getting currently is "<hehu> u know u cant ban for u"
[02:05] <Flannel> Ah, what a lovely guy.
[02:05] <MenZa> Rather.
[02:06] <MenZa> Flannel: http://jqd.org/pastebin?id=895 - password is ubuntu
[02:07] <MenZa> Flannel: I was planning on leaving the quiet for an hour or so.
[02:09] <Pricey> MenZa: This channel is logged publically.
[02:09] <MenZa> Yes, Pricey, it is. It was for the sole purpose of not ridding this channel with ~20 or so lines.
[02:18] <MenZa> I'll be unquieting him in half an hour's time.
[02:21] <tonyyarusso> Any trigger.pl users in the house?  I'm trying to understand the syntax for an on-beep event
[02:28] <tonyyarusso> nvm, apparently I just had a version of the script that didn't have that feature.  Upgraded.
[03:35] <Flannel> MenZa: Did you ever unmute him?
[03:36] <MenZa> Flannel: Just did.
[03:47] <MenZa> oh lawd
[03:48] <Flannel> Im crossing my fingers that he won't come back.  Doubt it though
[03:48]  * MenZa nods
[05:10] <mneptok> @login
[05:12] <Pricey> evil irssi
[05:13] <sarthor> HI, i came from #ubuntu, i have this error on multiple repos, "W: GPG error: http://ubuntu.mirrors.isu.net.sa karmic-security Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG 40976EAF437D05B5 Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:13] <bazhang> Pricey, did I mis-ban?
[05:13] <Pricey> bazhang: nope, but your removal of hte ban meant that my /unban 393, hit the 'old' 394.
[05:14] <bazhang> Pricey, I didn't remove a ban, perhaps you are referring to floodbot?
[05:14] <mneptok> sarthor: this is not a suppoer channel. please ask in #ubuntu. thanks.
[05:15] <Pricey> bazhang: bah yes, that
[05:15] <bazhang> Pricey, okay, thanks
[05:15] <bazhang> bruenig, how may we assist you
[05:15] <mneptok> bruenig: you are banned in #ubuntu. please do not use that channel, even if the host you are using evades the bans in place.
[05:15] <bazhang> aha
[05:16] <sarthor> in #ubuntu i called for help, they said to go to #ops, i went there, and they said go to #ubunu-ops, so i am here, Where next to go? i wander,
[05:16] <bruenig> when were I ban
[05:16] <bruenig> ?
[05:16] <sarthor> :(
[05:16] <bazhang> sarthor, #ubuntu is the correct place
[05:16] <sarthor> Ok.
[05:16] <mneptok> #ubuntu 	bruenig 	elky 	Oct 05 2009 02:40:11 	Show log inline | full
[05:16] <mneptok> srsly, no trolling allowed here.
[05:16] <mneptok> elky, Oct 05 2009 02:40:11
[05:16] <mneptok><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:16] <mneptok><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[05:16] <mneptok> elky, Oct 05 2009 02:40:11
[05:17] <bruenig> oh ha, must have been at the library
[05:17] <mneptok> bruenig: now you know you are banned, and not welcome. please do not attempt to /join the channel.
[05:17] <bruenig> I just have channels on autojoin
[05:17] <freenode-sucks> shit
[05:17] <bruenig> I was helping though :/
[05:17] <freenode-sucks> i hate freenode
[05:18] <mneptok> freenode-sucks: tell them in #freenode.
[05:18]  * freenode-sucks kicks ass
[05:18] <bruenig> told someone how to use bash aliases
[05:18]  * freenode-sucks
[05:18] <bazhang> freenode-sucks, yoshi765 did you need something
[05:18]  * freenode-sucks
[05:18] <bruenig> that was the last thing I see I said in the channel
[05:18]  * freenode-sucks rapes bruenig
[05:19] <mneptok> bruenig: no amount of help makes up for your overtly troll-ish behavior. sow what you reap.
[05:19] <bruenig> hmm
[05:19]  * freenode-sucks kills him
[05:19] <bruenig> so trollish that somehow I am not banned for a whole month?
[05:20] <bruenig> I idle in ubuntu and give tips when other channels are slow, I don't know what your deal is
[05:21] <mneptok> 2009-10-05T02:36:24 <prajjwal> is there a way to id myself as a root ??
[05:21] <mneptok> 2009-10-05T02:36:41 <bruenig> prajjwal: there is a way, but we are not allowed to tell you in this channel
[05:21] <bruenig> seems pretty legit answer
[05:21] <mneptok> 2009-10-05T02:36:56 <bruenig> they get really angry when we do
[05:21] <bruenig> not like I actually told him
[05:21] <bruenig> which would have been banworthy
[05:21] <mneptok> and you're savvy enough to know "sudo -i" or "sudo su"
[05:22] <bruenig> that was not his question
[05:22] <bruenig> sudo -i does not identify you as root
[05:22] <mneptok> welp, take it up with elky. it's her ban.
[05:22] <mneptok> i banned you for dodging bans.
[05:22] <mneptok> which you clearly did.
[05:22] <bruenig> well alright then
[05:22] <bruenig> odd enforcement timing
[05:23] <bazhang> Flannel, I have him in PM
[05:23] <mneptok> i don;t live in front of IRC.
[05:23] <bruenig> I had no idea I was dodging, I just autojoin as I said before
[05:23] <mneptok> and now you know
[05:23] <bruenig> I know when I am unbanned from places when they pop up
[05:23] <mneptok> so we may expect it will not happen again.
[05:24] <bruenig> well obviously that extremely mild incident was not repeated as here we are a month later and I am helping people with bash aliases
[05:24] <bruenig> is this is the over trolling you complain of, you have odd standards
[05:24] <bruenig> I would think you meant something like what freenode-sucks did
[05:24] <bruenig> if this*
[05:25] <mneptok> one more time ...
[05:25] <mneptok> take. it. up. with. elky.
[05:25] <bruenig> would elky then have the ability to remove yours?
[05:25] <mneptok> of course.
[05:25] <bruenig> or would I need to get her to -b hers then go to you?
[05:25] <bruenig> oh ok
[05:25] <bruenig> she is at work it seems
[05:25] <bruenig> I shall memo
[05:48] <MenZa> crap
[05:48] <MenZa> +m captain
[05:48] <MenZa> +m
[05:48] <Flannel> No need for +m
[05:49] <MenZa> With an influx of spambots?
[05:49] <Flannel> Looks like there's only two IPs
[05:49] <bazhang> that was weird
[05:49] <Pricey> dealing
[05:50] <MenZa> kapow
[05:52] <Flannel> Oh, five IPs
[05:53] <nalioth> more than two IPs and all that showed up caught the cattle cars on the k-train
[05:53] <MenZa> :D
[05:55] <nalioth> now more are arriving in other channels
[06:05] <Flannel> Howdy F[uCKe]R.
[06:05] <F[uCKe]R> i need register..?
[06:05] <nalioth> F[uCKe]R: no, you need manners
[06:05] <nalioth> find yours, and you can join #ubuntu
[06:06] <F[uCKe]R> ok
[06:06] <F[uCKe]R> in status
[06:06] <F[uCKe]R> said that
[06:06] <F[uCKe]R> #ubuntu #ubuntu-ops Forwarding to another channel
[06:06] <Flannel> F[uCKe]R: Right.
[06:08] <F[uCKe]R> hu,,
[06:08] <F[uCKe]R> hum*
[06:08] <Flannel> F[uCKe]R: Fix the problems with your nick and your ident, and you'll be able to join
[06:09] <F[uCKe]R> ah ok
[06:09] <F[uCKe]R> i see
[06:10] <Ti-Ti> done
[06:11] <Pricey> Odd, that use of "(repeat)" in #ubuntu
[06:11] <Ti-Ti> thanks you
[06:11]  * MenZa nods at Pricey
[06:11] <Flannel> Pricey: that two people did it at the same time?
[06:11] <Pricey> mmhm
[06:11] <Flannel> Pricey: Probably mXe saw the other guy do it
[06:12]  * MenZa assumes so
[07:53] <jussio1> Jordan_U: Anything you need?
[07:53] <jussio1> bruenig: Is there somethign else you need help with?
[07:54] <jussio1> wgrant: could you make sure you are identified? :)
[07:54] <jussio1> fdoving: also please.
[07:55] <wgrant> jussio1: Hm, maybe I lost stuff in the two hour netsplit yesterday. Sorry.
[07:55] <wgrant> That looks better.
[07:55] <jussio1> yup
[07:55] <jussio1> morning dholbach
[07:56] <dholbach> good morning
[09:19] <MenZa> Would anyone in here like an invitaiton to one of them fancy Wave thingamajics?
[09:28] <tsimpson> MenZa: yes :)
[09:29] <MenZa> tsimpson: Google account? :)
[09:29] <tsimpson><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[09:30] <MenZa> I've nominated you, but it won't be sent immediately.
[09:30] <tsimpson> thanks, I love new toys :)
[09:30] <MenZa> :D
[09:30] <MenZa> Welcome. :)
[09:30] <MenZa> Thought I'd ask in here before I threw them all away.
[09:31] <MenZa> (I have 7 more left - poke me if you want one)
[09:33] <tsimpson> now google can own *ALL* my data :D
[09:35] <MenZa> haha
[09:50] <bazhang> heh
[09:58] <jussio1> MenZa: can I request for a friend of mine?
[10:09] <MenZa> jussio1: certainly
[11:19] <bazhang> any thoughts on adding lmgtfy to the !noob factoid
[11:29] <Tm_T> !noob
[11:30] <Tm_T> bazhang: I'd say yes, but wait comments from others too
[11:33] <bazhang> Tm_T, thanks, will do
[11:37] <niko> BillyBobby is a reverse quote bot
[11:37] <bazhang> back in #kubuntu now
[11:38] <Tm_T> and out
[11:38] <Flannel> What a stupid bot
[11:45] <bazhang> indus, how may we help you
[13:34] <ikonia> why does indus keep joining and leaving?
[13:47] <Tm_T> banforward?
[13:47] <Pici> No, I didn't see one.
[13:49] <jussio1> no, seeems like he gets an "issue" and then thinks the better of it or it gets resolved
[13:49] <bazhang> yep
[13:50] <bazhang> wants a 'ruling'
[16:30] <Pici> yuck
[16:31] <Tm_T> erm
[16:31] <Pici> k-lined
[16:36] <gnomefreak> is it just me that is getting the ddc crap
[16:36] <Pici> No.
[16:36] <gnomefreak> or is that what (exploit) is
[16:37] <Pici> gnomefreak: That is indeed why the bots called the ops.
[16:37] <gnomefreak> Pici: thanks
[17:08] <Pici> !nickspam eric
[17:57] <Pici> If anyone has an IRC related subject that should be discussed at UDS, please let jussio1 or I know here.
[18:41] <Amaranth> We should get the bots on testnet to make sure they function correctly
[18:42] <jussio1> Amaranth: true
[18:42] <jussio1> tsimpson: maybe pop an iteration up on there?
[18:43] <tsimpson> jussio1: I'm on there now, there will be issues :)
[18:43] <tsimpson> also ljl is testing the floodbots
[18:43] <jussio1> hehe
[18:43] <jussio1> ok, nice
[18:43] <tsimpson> issues are there too
[18:44] <tsimpson> the way identify-msg works has changed, so we'll need to change IRCLogin
[18:44] <jussio1> hrr
[18:44] <jussio1> does that mean like every irc client needs to adjust also?
[18:45] <tsimpson> probably, yes
[18:45] <jussio1> yay for fun...
[18:45] <tsimpson> it's actually using the more "standard" way to get capabilities, but it's not the most common
[18:46] <tsimpson> the new way -> http://www.leeh.co.uk/draft-mitchell-irc-capabilities-02.html
[18:47] <tsimpson> testnet is getting quite a spamming
[18:47] <jussio1> hehe
[18:47] <jussio1> thats what its there for, no?
[18:48] <tsimpson> not this type of spam, no
[18:49] <tsimpson> ooh, /whois shows what server someone is connected to
[18:49] <tsimpson> that's new
[18:49] <jussio1> cool
[21:30] <Seeker`> talkative in here today
[21:36] <jussio1> just a reminder: [19:57:43] <Pici> If anyone has an IRC related subject that should be discussed at UDS, please let jussio1 or I know here.
[22:13] <topyli> "plz write a nice telepathy irc client or make xchat-gnome telepathic. empathy irc is not relivunt to my intress. thx"
[22:16] <topyli> i might have other, better ones later :)
[22:16] <Flannel> +1
[23:25] <mneptok> !staff | http://www.swissvpn.net/ - possible abusive netblock for k: consideration


[08:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hmm
[08:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) guys?
[08:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) are you pondering this issue of possible high dpi screens and how icon sizes etc relate to this?
[08:46] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and how big on-screen elements should be?
[08:46] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) we should work together to make the desktop icon theme standards etc fit our needs on the embedded as well, so we come up with a working plan and then try to collaborate with desktop people
[08:48] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) hi tigert
[08:48] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I've noticed it being raised as a problem, yes.
[08:48] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hi Mithrandir
[08:48] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so is ken your ui guy now?
[08:49] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) at least artwork guy; unsure if he does/is supposed to do UI too.
[08:49] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) (that is, to a larger extent than artwork and concepts here will be UI)
[08:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ok, who does ui? we should try to collaborate as much as possible
[08:49] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I think Ken is the best person to talk to.
[08:50] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) since he's been doing the mockups and such
[08:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) Mithrandir: http://tigert.1g.fi/kuvat/Misc/16x16.jpeg < this 16x16  icon explains the problem fairly well
[08:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the black thing is the N800 stylus
[08:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the tip
[08:50] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yup
[08:51] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you're currently using a pixmap based theme, right?  So that needs to change if we want to support different dpis.
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[08:51] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) or we need to have different versions for different DPIs
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) svg is slower on small devices with limited cpu
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it depends on two things
[08:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) dpi and physical size
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) you can scale icons in svg fairly nicely to wanted size as long as it is bigger than certain size
[08:52] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah, they can get very muddy if you make them too small
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but its also that if the physical size of icons is very small on screen (even if they are 48x48 for example) it doesnt make sense to put much detail there
[08:52] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) that shouldn't be a problem on high-dpi screens though?
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well
[08:52] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) oh, ok
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its both the pixel resolution
[08:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, can you see the detail
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but also whether you WANT to see it?
[08:53] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) true
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) because its still darn small
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and if you are walking etc, you dont care much about the miniscule detail
[08:53] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) indeed
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) you just want to know what the icons are about
[08:53] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) do you have a suggestion on how to fix that?
[08:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I think just design for physical size
[08:54] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) we need to forget about pixel sizes with this high dpi (the N800 and 770 are about 230dpi)
[08:54] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) that should be doable with SVGs, shouldn't it?
[08:54] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) especially for things like chat etc things that you use with fingers while walking
[08:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it should perhaps, but this is a deeper problem
[08:55] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah, and on-screen keyboards.
[08:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) "what fits on screen" vs "what can be comfortably used with your big fat fingers"
[08:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or stylus etc
[08:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) different use cases
[08:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) also if you walk with a device, stylus is harder to use
[08:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or if you have some car navigation thing for example
[08:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) those have big buttons and fonts even though the screen res might be quite big
[08:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but so, we need to collaborate since our needs towards gtk etc are fairly similar
[08:57] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) is GTK able to give us what we need or do we have to get patches in there?
[08:58] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ask tko :)
[08:58] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) he knows more about this
[08:59] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but its like we who have handheld things etc (ubuntu mobile, openmoko and maemo etc)
[08:59] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) should perhaps make sure we talk with each other and decide what we want to propose to gtk together
[08:59] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) instead of doing similar but slightly different things each :)
[09:00] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[09:00] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) so far, we're basically riding on maemo's back, but I can easily see us want some things that are not needed by maemo itself
[09:00] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) and we'll at least initially have more high-powered devices so the performance cost of vectors vs pixmaps is easier for us
[09:02] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it all depends on the batteries you have :)
[09:02] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or the device power will not be much fun :)
[09:03] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) true that.
[09:03] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I'm hoping the tickless kernel and the work which powertop has spurred will make that easier for us, at least.
[09:38] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Does it make sense to limit the SVG usage to a subset, perhaps SVG Mobile or SVG Basic, and is it harder to author?
[09:40] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Makes me also wonder whether it would help to cache the SVG rendering at some key sizes, or convert SVG sources to pixmaps of various sizes at build time
[09:41] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: its harder to author
[09:42] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: though, I guess limiting it "softly" in a guideline might be easier
[09:42] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I dunno if inkscape or such support any svg mobile spec
[09:42] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and there are no free libs to do that - but I guess as long as the icons are simple, things work ok
[09:42] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but yeah, bitmaps are always faster
[09:43] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it just makes a ton of sense to draw icons etc in svg in the first place
[09:43] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (tigert: I'm not even sure we have tool to validate whether something is SVG Mobile or Basic, but I expect that limiting to this seemingly easier to render subset might help for the problems you raised previously)
[09:43] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so you can modify them easier
[09:44] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Are the current pixmap icon sizes satisfactory for the high DPIs?
[09:45] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I think these are 16/22/24/33/36/48/64/72/96/128/192, but I'm not sure
[09:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I need to check
[09:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) of course our stuff is all weird and I want to change this
[09:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hildon has all strange sizes and names for icons
[09:45] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Heh :)
[09:45] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I wish to start using stock icon names at some point, but its not a quick change
[09:46] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) however thanks to tango's icon-naming-utils this might be doable with a transition time
[09:47] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: With stock icons, it's hard to avoid the trap of using the icons for what the implementation represents instead of only considering the purpose of the icon
[09:47] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) what do you mean?
[09:48] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: I mean relying on the fact that the "soundcard" icon has a card drawn on it and using this as a picture for a MMC card
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) oh right
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea, we need metaphor list or something
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so we first come up with good metaphors for icons
[09:49] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: This trap is not a risk when you fork the icons in apps
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) then its easy to theme them differently if needed
[09:49] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (But obviously losing theming capabilities)
[09:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well
[09:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its not a risk either if you try to coordinate the icon use in apps a bit
[09:50] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Yeah, I agree it's not a risk if you don't make the mistake :)
[09:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
[09:50] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Plus, icon transitions are a real pain, with no good way to tell what apps use which icons
[09:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) google code search?
[09:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or one can just grep
[09:51] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: You can't check for all new upstream releases of all software :-/
[09:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[09:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its a bit pile of code yeah
[09:51] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: If you compare to library dependencies, these are declared and checked at build time quite clearly, and packagers review the diff of configure.ac, but for icons we can't do anything similar
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea
[09:52] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Even depending on an icon at the packaging level is quite hard
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) unless we have some unified icon spec that contains metaphors
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and guarantees that certain set of icons exist
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and then you depend on a certain version of that
[09:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but
[09:52] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Say, if you know the icon is required (or crash!) and it's an icon defined by the standards, then you need to let some alternate icon theme packages be installed to satisfy the dependency
[09:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its also a problem that many apps just need special icons
[09:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and how to make those themeable?
[09:53] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Perhaps imposing the metaphors is a solution; I fear it introduces other subtle issues, but well...
[09:53] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[09:53] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: True
[09:54] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) So I'd say icon packaging is a mess these days :)
[09:54] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I tickled the idea with Vincent (Untz) at UDS, and he wasn't too hot in adding infrastructure to track such dependencies, but he also said that incompatible icon name changes were over now
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[09:55] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) He thinks there was a period of trouble which is over; I truly hope so
[09:55] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) vuntz: Hey Vincent!
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its also a problem at work here - for artists, its good to have just a big pile o' icons
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) to draw
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but for sane development you want to split them
[09:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) somehow
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so that your icon package does not cause all kinds of nightmare dependency problems when you lack an icon
[09:56] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Yes, some icon themes do not implement the full icon set by themselves and inherit another theme for the rest
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or if you need an icon in app X that is not yet there, but it contains an icon for app Y that you would like to add in already
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but hmm
[09:56] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) It means you can't even check whether an icon theme package is "compliant" with an icon set at build time
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) maybe inheritance could work
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) have a base stock theme
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but damn
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no it wont work
[09:56] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: It's in use already I think
[09:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) dobey had some ideas
[09:57] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that apps have their own icon theme folder structure
[09:57] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and just add that in icon search path
[09:57] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Check /usr/share/icons/*/index.theme; some have "Inherits=" in [Icon Theme]
[09:57] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea, I know
[09:58] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (Oh ok, I thought you knew, but I mismatched the discussion we were having, sorry)
[09:59] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no worries :)
[12:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2006-June/006743.html
[12:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: this is how kde does it I think
[01:56] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: I find that "weird"
[01:57] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I don't understand how the share/apps/$appname/icons/$themename can work; are such files supposed to be installed by individual themes?  Or is this an example of themable applications where you create a per-app theme?
[02:54] <agoliveira> mdz: Do you intend to extend the meeting in June to 16 (saturday)? I just received an email from Dionne Wheeler asking about that and I tought that we would be there until friday only.
[02:55] (mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: as far as I am concerned, you are free to do as you like after close of business Friday
[02:55] (mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: what did Dionne ask exactly?
[02:57] <agoliveira> mdz: She sent me 2 possible flight intineraries, both returning on 17/06 (sunday), I asked why not on 16 and she told me she tought that our meeting would extend until 16. That's why I asked.
[02:58] (mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: sounds like there was some confusion; that did not come from me
[02:58] <agoliveira> mdz: Probably it was just a mix-up with the dates. I don't have the intention to stay there during the weekend. Well, it's clear to me now. Thanks.
[03:15] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: yea, its a bit weird
[03:16] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I guess its so that if apps want to ship theme variants of their icons (say, N800 has four themes in it when you buy it)
[03:16] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) if we wanted to theme icons, we could then have /usr/share/email/icons/theme1 etc
[03:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, look at it from the other perspective
[03:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) if you are making a theme, its hard to know what apps might be installed etc
[03:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but if you are an app maker, to support some theme, you make an icon set and install it to themename/ under your app's own icon dir
[03:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so that would then work
[03:30] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Ok, I begin to understand that application authors might have the knowledge of what themes are installed (for example they know the list of default themes on a system), and would want their application to he integrated in these themes
[03:31] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) And I also understand the choice of layout now; even if I find it slightly unfortunate :)
[03:32] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: at least if you are building a product :)
[03:32] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) then you know what themes there'll be
[03:32] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) by default
[03:32] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) The concept of icon theme path begins to make sense now; I even imagine how we could search dirs based on a format string such as "share/$app/icons/%s" % theme
[03:33] (lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Right; it still seems to somehow break the concept of themes for me, but I understand the purpose of the approach and the problem it solves
[04:01] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: did you start investigating hildon-desktop?
[04:03] <agoliveira> Yes but I had to step back becasue of the i10l dependencies.
[04:03] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) can you push what you've done into the bzr repo?
[04:04] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: I can push the rest as I didn't do anything that works on hildon-desktop yet.
[04:04] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ok
[04:04] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I don't mind if the branches you've pushed don't actually completely work yet.
[04:04] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) (as long as it says so on TODO)
[04:05] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Can this wait a bit? I completely obliterated my chroot enviromment and I finish to putting back.
[04:05] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) sure, it's more of a general thing, try to be proactive about pushing changes.
[04:06] <agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ah, nice. As soon as I finish it here, I'll organize what I've done and push it.
[04:07] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) great. :-)
[04:08] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: yea, we clearly need to discuss and ponder this a bit more
[04:16] <kwwii> hi tigert
[04:17] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hi ken
[04:17] <kwwii> tigert: did you make the whole plankton theme alone? that is some pretty nice stuff from which I have borrowed a thing or two :-)
[04:31] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[04:31] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well, not the template system
[04:31] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but I basically drew over the old (ugly) N770 theme template
[04:32] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I noticed the "drag handle" holes :)
[04:36] <kwwii> lol, thanks for those, btw :-)
[04:38] <kwwii> I guess my next mockups are going to be a little more closer to reality
[04:41] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: I realise I haven't told you, but your mockups rock.  My only fear is they're giving people too high hopes. :-P
[04:42] <kwwii> Mithrandir: I think that if we keep decent goals set for each release we can slowly make our way to something pretty cool - we'll learn along the way as well :-)
[04:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
[04:54] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: get a N800
[04:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it makes you understand a lot of things
[04:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: http://tigert.1g.fi/kuvat/Misc/16x16.jpeg
[04:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that is a 16x16 pixels icon
[04:56] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) on the 770 screen
[04:56] <kwwii> tigert: yeah, I was thinking about trying to get one...just don't want to pay for it personaly :-)
[04:56] <kwwii> lol, it is just a spot
[04:57] <kwwii> I was amazed at the resolutions these things have on such tiny screens - finally I can make nice big icons :p
[05:03] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea. and we need to forget pixel sizes and start to work on physical dimensions, siince thats what matter for widgets etc on touchscreen
[05:04] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the mobility is a new world otherwise too.
[05:04] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) i just left work and walking to the mall for some weekend shopping =)
[05:05] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) s/walking/i am walking/
[05:17] <kwwii> hehe, enjoy your weekend :-)
[05:17] <kwwii> I will always remember when we were chatting a few years ago and you said "I am outside washing my dog"
[05:24] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
[05:24] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that must have been walking, and the T9 text input guessed wrong =)
[05:24] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) since it was putty on my phone then
[05:32] (tko/#ubuntu-mobile) hrm.. we really need to start poking people to give us decent irc access
[05:36] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no kidding.
[05:36] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or use the n800s
[05:36] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
[05:37] (tko/#ubuntu-mobile) sucks to copypaste stuff from your laptop to n800
[05:44] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) clipboard-over-ssh? :-)
[05:44] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) synergy ;)
[05:44] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but that returns you to the "no ssh" part :)
[05:46] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you don't have ssh access out from work?
[05:47] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) not officially
[05:47] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) everything needs to use a proxy
[05:47] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) http proxy or ssh proxy or socks proxy?
[05:48] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) http
[05:48] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ok, and I guess they're not entirely happy about people doing ssh-over-http or similar crack
[05:49] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yes. i know how. but it should just work
[05:49] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) it should, unless it's a policy decision to not allow you to use real internet.
[05:50] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, should not require you to run a sshd at home to get work done ;)
[05:50] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) exactly
[05:51] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the company network  works better for keeping trade secrets than for free software devel ;)
[05:52] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) even the former can be argued of course but lets not go into security as its not the point here
[05:53] (Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) trying to keep trade secrets in by technical means is.. hard.
[05:55] (tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) very


[01:08] <callmepk> good morning
[01:27] <duflu> Morning callmepk
[01:27] <callmepk> morning duflu
[02:35] <pieq> hi duflu , callmepk !
[02:35] <duflu> Hey pieq
[02:54] <callmepk> hi pieq
[02:55] <pieq> So my desktop is still on 18.04. /home is on a different partition from /. What are the odds that I completely destroy everything if I install 20.04 and just replace / ? :D
[02:56] <pieq> (if I remember correctly, there is a "format" checkbox that is unticked by default, so if I point /home to my current home partition and leave this checkbox unticked, I should get all my files and configs back after the install, right?)
[03:03] <RAOF> pieq: You should keep your *user* configs and files (although backups are recommended, always!), but is there any particular reason not to just use `do-release-upgrade`? (You'll need to pass an option to make it consider 18.04→20.04 before we release 20.04.1)
[03:05] <pieq> RAOF, good question. A vague feeling of "it's cleaner this way". Also, last time I tried this (16.04 → 18.04), the laptop I tried it on miserably failed (a bad graphics driver issue I guess, I had no more X.org so it was very hard to recover)
[03:05] <pieq> RAOF, When is 20.04.1 due? Beginning of August?
[03:08] <RAOF> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FocalFossa/ReleaseSchedule says “End of July”
[03:09] <pieq> RAOF, OK. I might just try the do-release-upgrade and see, then. It's a desktop with an AMD GPU and nothing too fancy (no wireless, no BT, ...), it shouldn't be too bad in terms of support
[03:10] <RAOF> My understanding is that `do-release-upgrade` is expected to *work* now, but we let the release see the first round of SRUs and soak for a bit.
[03:10] <RAOF> If you have any problems, please file bugs 😀
[03:11] <pieq> RAOF, I will, don't worry (I'm a QA engineer, filing bug is my passion! :D )
[03:11] <pieq> filing bug*s*
[03:12] <pieq> RAOF, I found some pulseaudio issues when upgrading another laptop from 19.10 to 20.04, but yeah, it was on a laptop, I don't expect to see this kind of issues on a desktop (but you never know! :))
[03:12] <pieq> RAOF, anyway, thanks for your answers!
[06:14] <didrocks> good morning
[06:17] <duflu> Hi didrocks
[06:18] <didrocks> hey duflu
[06:41] <oSoMoN> good morning desktoppers
[06:41] <oSoMoN> happy Monday!
[06:55] <duflu> Hi oSoMoN. Happy Monday
[06:55] <oSoMoN> hey duflu, how are you?
[06:58] <duflu> oSoMoN, going well. You?
[07:14] <oSoMoN> duflu, yeah, I'm good and very relaxed after a 4 day week-end
[07:23] <didrocks> salut oSoMoN !
[07:29] <jibel> hi all
[07:30] <didrocks> salut jibel
[07:31] <jibel> salut didrocks, ça va bien?
[07:33] <oSoMoN> salut didrocks, jibel
[07:34] <didrocks> jibel: ça va, et toi ?
[07:35] <jibel> didrocks, bien, toujours l'été ici, on en profite d'autant plus que les touristes ne sont pas là
[07:35] <jibel> natation et rando pour rattrapper le retard dû au confinement
[07:35] <didrocks> certes :)
[08:16] <duflu> Hi jibel
[08:16] <jibel> good afternoon duflu
[14:16] <Saviq> didrocks, jibel: hey folks, one thing just came to mind re: zsys - think it'd be possible to annotate the snapshots with what caused them? like what `apt` command was being run, stuff like that?
[14:20] <didrocks> Saviq: it’s an idea we had but we didn’t capture that on a bug report, mind doing so? (I’m afraid on a stable release that most of them will be "do-release-upgrade" and won’t really help though)
[14:25] <juliank> didrocks: I just setup a fully encrypted zfs laptop by hacking around the zsys ubiquity script, that was easy. need to play around with it more, but looking good
[14:25] <juliank> didrocks: The updating grub menu at apt install end is a bit slow
[14:26] <juliank> The installer experience was odd - it first formatted sda2 as / (ext4), and created a swapfile in it, before reformatting it as swap (sda3 was bpool, sda4 rpool)
[14:26] <juliank> Just to give you my impressions :)
[14:27] <juliank> (write speed seems to be about 60 MB/s in encrypted rpool, vs 100 MB/s in the unencrypted bpool; but they also have different recordsize [I increased recordsize to 512K in rpool])
[14:28] <didrocks> juliank: we need to test recordsize impact. The installer experience is unfortunately hackish, but normal users won’t see the trick ext4 then ZFS
[14:28] <jibel> juliank, we couldn't bypass partman, so we let it do it's thing then overwrite with our layout. That's weird indeed but didn't find a better way.
[14:28] <jibel> its*
[14:29] <didrocks> which is unfortunate due to how ubiquity does with partman
[14:29] <juliank> ack
[14:29] <didrocks> juliank: which encryption did you use?
[14:29] <juliank> didrocks: aes-256-gcm
[14:29] <didrocks> ack, the next default one :)
[14:29] <juliank> yeah
[14:29] <didrocks> just checking you didn’t shoot in your feet :)
[14:50] <Saviq> didrocks: no worries, will log :)
[14:51] <didrocks> thx!