[00:01] <pangolin> kick me you fools
[00:04] <popey> hmm?
[00:04] <Gary> fail
[00:04] <AlanBell> silly pangolin fail
[00:04] <pangolin> sheesh, one network wode fail and I get all this flack :(
[00:04] <popey> ah, /amsg
[00:04] <pangolin> wide
[00:05] <popey> you plum
[00:05] <exobuzz> popey, i recently discovered, you can iron scrambled egg, directly on a plate.. i was just thinking next time you are on your trampoline..
[00:05] <exobuzz> my new non stick iron - i had to test it etc
[00:07] <exobuzz> not tried steaming veg on the plate yet.. worth a go
[00:14] <popey> sorry, what?
[00:14] <popey> eggs between baking paper or something?
[00:15] <exobuzz> good flat plate.. egg. iron.. mess. fun etc
[00:15] <popey> hah
[00:17] <exobuzz> not as much "fun" as when my other half set fire to my microwave though
[00:18] <exobuzz> naan bread bag. metal got hot. paper caught wire. door of microwave caught fire.. and its the 2nd! time she put metal in it.. heh..
[00:18] <Gary> ban her!
[00:19] <exobuzz> she is banned for sure
[00:19] <exobuzz> i got a new microwave now.. i love it.. anyone who destroys it, gets all meals cooked by iron for the rest of the year as punishment
[00:20] <exobuzz> s/wire/fire just noticed that
[00:20] <popey> i removed the door from the oven today
[00:20] <popey> which was a minor diy achievement
[00:20] <popey> (I hate diy)
[00:21] <exobuzz> just for fun ? :)
[00:21] <popey> no, handle broke
[00:21] <popey> well, came loose, then undone
[00:21] <exobuzz> handles are overrated
[00:21] <popey> screw head is on the inside
[00:21] <exobuzz> aah
[00:21] <exobuzz> make sure your dog doesnt climb in!
[00:21] <popey> hah
[00:22] <popey> and so.. bed
[00:22] <exobuzz> in the oven ?
[00:22] <exobuzz> i dont think removing the door is sufficient to make it acceptable as a bed
[00:22] <popey> its a big oven, but it aint that big
[00:22] <exobuzz> but then.. it is you ;-)
[00:22] <popey> nice and warm though
[00:22] <exobuzz> hehe
[00:22] <exobuzz> popey wins on the big factorness ?
[00:22] <exobuzz> im in your club
[00:23] <popey> heh
[00:23] <exobuzz> sleep well
[00:23] <exobuzz> dont go over 100c
[00:23] <exobuzz> :)
[00:23] <Gary> night night popey, i'll be thinking of you
[00:24] <popey> mwah
[00:26] <exobuzz> is that "mwahha" laugh or "mwah" juicy kiss
[00:26] <exobuzz> must be a juicy kiss..
[00:27] <exobuzz> new ubuntu uk podcast soon. hurray!
[00:38] <exobuzz> <3 xfce recently..
[00:38] <exobuzz> productivity as it should be without wondering why my window manager has done something weird
[00:39] <exobuzz> (not trying to bring up the whole unity debate. just saying)
[00:39] <exobuzz> 2 machines on xfce now.. one left on an old mint which is going to xubuntu also
[08:12] <DJones> Morning all
[08:17] <czajkowski> aloha
[08:24] <daubers> Morning
[08:27] <BigRedS> good morning!
[08:37] <popey> Morning
[08:38]  * popey taps his watch and looks at czajkowski
[08:39] <czajkowski> popey: morning
[08:42] <daubers> So I've decided that the internet is a scam to raise the price of tomatoes
[08:45] <BigRedS> I don't think I've ever done anything tomato related on the internet
[08:47] <daubers> Exactley! And that's how they get you
[08:47] <BigRedS> Oh, I see
[08:47] <daubers> It's a huge distraction so you don't notice the massive price hikes
[08:48]  * daubers may not have had any coffee this morning and may be suffering
[08:52] <AlanBell> morning
[08:53] <czajkowski> AlanBell: ello
[08:54] <diplo> Morning all
[09:02] <czajkowski> popey: ping
[09:13] <JamesTait> Morning all!
[09:18] <popey> czajkowski: pong
[09:18] <czajkowski> see pm
[09:19] <TheOpenSourcerer> Morning all, Anyone postgres savvy?
[09:19] <TheOpenSourcerer> I inadvertantly dropped the "postgres" database. How can I restore it from a backup?
[09:23] <AlanBell> erk
[09:24] <gord> oop
[09:26] <daubers> TheOpenSourcerer: Delorian?
[09:32] <DJones> Backups?
[09:32] <TheOpenSourcerer>  Yes, I have thouse.
[09:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> those
[09:46] <AlanBell> filesystem level backups or database dumps?
[09:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Interesting problem that. sudo purge postgres*, delete /var/lib/postgres /usr/share/postgres then re-install. There is a pg_createcluster which is supposed to do it but it was quicker to do the above.
[09:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> Better modify my script before it does that again ;-)
[09:49] <BigRedS> haha
[09:50] <BigRedS> I keep meaning to use postgres again. I've not used it since Perl type bullied me into it. But that only lasted a couple of months before laziness turned me back to mysql
[10:00] <DJones> Is ppa:unity-team/hud the recommended way of installing & testing HUD? A couple fo comments I've just read suggest that the ppa is dead
[10:04] <gord> DJones, no, its not, hud's in trunk so the daily unity ppa
[10:07] <DJones> gord: Thanks, I'll give that a go when I get home tonight
[10:10] <cliftonts> morning all
[10:11] <cliftonts> does anyone here know much about diagnosing laptop hardware faults?
[10:12] <daubers> cliftonts: Depends on the fault :)
[10:13] <daubers> cliftonts: what are the symptoms?
[10:13] <cliftonts> daubers: as soon as you plug it in it turns on, no need to touch the power switch
[10:13] <cliftonts> the hard drive accesses briefly then nothing, no picture, no response to key presses
[10:14] <cliftonts> try to turn it off and it ignores you, you have to pull the plug
[10:14] <directhex> short circuit. possibly a power supply fault.
[10:14] <cliftonts> scrambled bios maybe?
[10:14] <directhex> not convinced.
[10:15] <cliftonts> that's a shame, it's a damn expensive laptop and I don't rate my chances at being able to fault find at component level on the board
[10:16] <daubers> cliftonts: Can always bring it up to a Hackspace and ask nicely :)
[10:17] <directhex> i reckon it's a short.
[10:17] <cliftonts> daubers: I'm in business selling these things, would they have any issue with someone exploiting them for profit?
[10:17] <gordonjcp> cliftonts: power supply failure? possibly stuck power button?
[10:18] <daubers> cliftonts: If you go up there and ask for help identifying these kind of problems and maybe offered a small donation (even of old kit) they'd probably be ok with it
[10:18] <cliftonts> gordonjcp: the power button is on a removable board so I've eliminated that
[10:18] <gordonjcp> cliftonts: fucked, basically
[10:19] <cliftonts> daubers: Although I'm in business I'm pretty new to it and in extreme poverty lol. I do however have shed loads of old kit!
[10:19] <bigcalm> !ohmy | gordonjcp
[10:19] <cliftonts> gordonjcp: Please refrain from using technical terms in here. hehe
[10:21] <cliftonts> daubers: I know nothing about hackspace except that it has been mentioned by a few people at the local LUG, I'm having a browse now
[10:24] <cliftonts> I have found a local one with the most user un-friendly page in the universe. Now all I need to do is knock on every single door in reading until I find them because they don't seem to have any addresses, meeting dates or contact details.
[10:24] <daubers> cliftonts: Who is your local one?
[10:24] <daubers> Oh! Reading! Hang on
[10:24] <cliftonts> Reading
[10:25] <daubers> http://readingmakerspace.co.uk/wiki/Main_Page <- Is it that page?
[10:25] <daubers> (or readinghackspace.co.uk)
[10:25] <cliftonts> I'd got this
[10:26] <cliftonts> brilliant! The how to find us page on that address shows which bus to catch but doesn't tell you the address
[10:27] <daubers> cliftonts: Give me 10 minutes and I'll give you some better directions (I'm building those pages)
[10:27] <daubers> cliftonts: It's here http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=214476086285871945372.0004b5b4aca8db41322dd&msa=0&ll=51.454455,-0.895804&spn=0.002079,0.003605
[10:27] <cliftonts> fair enough
[10:27] <daubers> headley park 9
[10:27] <daubers> in woodley
[10:27] <cliftonts> do you have a postcode for it?
[10:28] <daubers> Umm.. somewhere
[10:29] <daubers> Unit 5, Headley Park NINE, Headley Road, Woodley, RG5 4SQ
[10:29] <cliftonts> I'm just trying to think logically here, the power enters the board at one spot, the switch is in another, at some point along the path something will react to the switch by shorting out and that has obviously gone dud
[10:29] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:29] <cliftonts> but what is that something?
[10:30] <cliftonts> daubers: Thanks
[10:34] <cliftonts> daubers: Wednesday evenings, right?
[10:39] <cliftonts> I'll stop by and see if anyone has any ideas then.
[10:40] <daubers> Cool :) Usually people there around 7ish
[10:40] <daubers> (I should be there, but depends on getting out of london on time(
[10:40] <cliftonts> It strikes me though that it must be a component with more than 3 pins though, because it's essentially brain dead. Fans leds etc come on but nothing more. So it's only powering up part of the board
[10:41] <cliftonts> trouble is some of these things are so small I can't even identify them!
[10:46]  * AlanBell has tickets to London Irish
[10:47] <bigcalm> Sounds like a pub
[10:47] <cliftonts> daubers: Are you still there?
[10:52] <KrisDouglas> Hey Gareth, how are the computer fairs coming along?
[10:53]  * BigRedS realises where he recognises the name "cliftonts" from
[10:53] <cliftonts> go on BigRedS...
[10:54] <cliftonts> KrisDouglas: It's going quite nicely, profits are a bit low but I'm half way through transferring to laptops rather than desktops so I don't have much in the way of highly profitable items right now
[10:55] <BigRedS> oh, ubuntu-uk list
[10:55] <KrisDouglas> cliftonts, yeah, too many people can build desktops too-easily.
[10:55] <KrisDouglas> They're like Lego nowadays.
[10:56] <BigRedS> Plugging in's easy, it's the speccing that's hard
[10:56] <BigRedS> well, substantially more tedious than I can ever bring myself to do
[10:56] <KrisDouglas> BigRedS, yeah, but it's not nearly as hard as it used to be.
[10:56] <KrisDouglas> The only difficulty I find is brands, etc.
[10:56] <BigRedS> No, that's one benefit of competition mostly disappearing :/
[10:57] <cliftonts> KrisDouglas: I understand that but you try finding laptops for sale at a good enough price to turn a profit on. I'm having to invent my own solutions
[10:57] <BigRedS> but even so, I always need to say "I have £X. What should I buy?" to knowledgable people
[10:58] <KrisDouglas> cliftonts, you could start buying OEM shells and installing the parts yourself
[10:58] <KrisDouglas> if you find the right supplier it could be viable.
[10:58]  * AlanBell might be in the market for some bits of desktop kit
[10:59] <cliftonts> KrisDouglas: OEM shells?
[11:00] <davmor2> morning all
[11:00] <KrisDouglas> cliftonts, yes, a laptop with just a board, no LCD (usually) or hard drive or anything
[11:01] <KrisDouglas> You then fill it with bits, much like a PC.
[11:01] <KrisDouglas> www.pcspecialist.co.uk do it.
[11:01] <davmor2> czajkowski: prod
[11:01] <cliftonts> Never heard of that before
[11:02] <cliftonts> I've chosen to focus on broken laptops, that way I can get them for as little as £10 a piece
[11:02] <cliftonts> my latest is an Acer Aspire with a HD 18.4" screen but it's got a very stubborn power fault
[11:05] <cliftonts> Anyway, I suppose I really should get on and do some work!
[11:06] <oimon_> does anyone have experience of capacitive stylus for tablets?
[11:07] <oimon_> would like to do handwriting on android tablet with a stylus
[11:07] <bigcalm> o/
[11:07] <bigcalm> Adoit Jot Pro
[11:07] <oimon_> bigcalm: how long you had it?
[11:07] <oimon_> i was looking at the jot
[11:08] <bigcalm> Since Wednesday last week
[11:08] <bigcalm> I did research and asked around
[11:09] <oimon_> do they seem durable? (btw what did you pay?)
[11:10] <bigcalm> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005GSPN6M
[11:10] <bigcalm> I wanted the blue, but I'm a cheap skate
[11:10] <oimon_> bigcalm: which note taking app are you using?
[11:11] <bigcalm> I'm not yet
[11:11] <oimon_> i'm more cheap skate as the jot classic will suffice for moi
[11:11] <bigcalm> I bought it for drawing with
[11:11] <oimon_> but handwriting is ok?
[11:11] <bigcalm> Yes, it's pleasing on my Xoom
[11:11] <oimon_> i want it for freenote (ideally i'd love asus supernote that is on the transformer prime)
[11:12] <oimon_> does it do anything magic (bluetooth etc), or just pick up and write?
[11:12] <bigcalm> It's just a stylus, nothing clever going on
[11:12] <oimon_> no lag?
[11:13] <bigcalm> That'll be down to the app/hardware
[11:13] <oimon_> ok last question, thanks for humouring me :D
[11:13] <oimon_> what do you think of the people on the amazon reviews who are saying it scratches your screen?
[11:14] <bigcalm> I haven't experienced this. If you push too hard with anything you might break something and start scratching
[11:15] <bigcalm> The point of the clear pad is to prevent this
[11:15] <oimon_> it's always hard to judge the amazonian reviewers. they could be a trained chimp and you wouldn't know it
[11:15] <davmor2> popey: PS3 remotes rock ask bigcalm and gord I did a demo
[11:16] <bigcalm> popey: davmor2 likes things that vibrate lots
[11:16] <oimon_> i'm amazed that gorilla glass would scratch if this stylus is used without a protector
[11:16] <directhex> i wrote a ps3 remote driver once
[11:16] <directhex> in my yoof
[11:16] <bigcalm> directhex: how old are you now?
[11:17] <directhex> twentysomething
[11:17] <directhex> hang on...
[11:17] <directhex> carry the three...
[11:17] <directhex> twenty... seven?
[11:17] <bigcalm> The ps3 hasn't been around that long surely?
[11:17] <bigcalm> Youth is relative :)
[11:20] <oimon_> bigcalm: do you use a screen protector?
[11:23] <bigcalm> No
[11:23] <bigcalm> Nor is there one on my phone
[11:24] <oimon_> you risk taker you ...
[11:25] <bigcalm> I've had my Nexus One since they were available from Google
[11:25] <directhex> cookies! http://apebox.org/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/miscellaneous-junk/IMG_0551.JPG
[11:25] <oimon_> bought a nice valentines card for the missis and the postie bent it ..big crease :(
[11:25] <bigcalm> Bacon cookies?
[11:26] <directhex> bigcalm, yeah. haven't made any for a few years
[11:27] <directhex> http://apebox.org/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/miscellaneous-junk/IMG_0550.JPG
[11:27] <bigcalm> I'm not sure what to think!
[11:27] <directhex> "mmm, bacon!" ?
 You work at one?
[12:25] <czajkowski> AlanBell: danfish tickets arrived
[12:25] <directhex> palnj, i'm sick of the post office constantly being in financial straights, when they charge a fraction of what all other comparable post offices globally charge
[12:25] <AlanBell> czajkowski: yes, got them :)
[12:25] <palnj> directhex: true, I guess
[12:26] <AlanBell> directhex: yes, with you on that, I would be fine with them putting the price of a stamp up and ditching second class
[12:26] <directhex> palnj, it ends up with a broken business model where their main skill - taking an item from A to B for pennies overnight - makes little to no money, so they need to supplement it with every unrelated service ever, and bulk-rate carriage for spammers
[12:26] <palnj> Lol
[12:27] <directhex> you think La Poste needs to sell DSL?
[12:27] <BigRedS> I s
[12:27] <BigRedS> till don't understand 2nd class
[12:27] <palnj> AlanBell: true, seeing as no-one really sends post that much anymore now anyways
[12:27] <czajkowski> AlanBell: I forgot who else got them
[12:27] <palnj> What with the miracle of email
[12:27] <directhex> Correos doesn't issue credit cards
[12:27] <palnj> (and IRC, of course)
[12:27] <directhex> PalaPad, yeah! they haven't touched their business model to handle the realities of modern delivery
[12:28] <directhex> in 2012, the post is used for bills, birthday cards, spam, and play.com shipments
[12:30] <AlanBell> czajkowski: I can probably pick you and jon up from Reading station if you like
[12:30] <popey> comics
[12:30] <BigRedS> yeah, and they've basically been forced into competition only in all the possibly profitable bits of their service
[12:30] <BigRedS> so they're a bit stumped when it comes to covering the costs of delviering a letter to anywhere in the uk for 30p or however much a stamp costs
[12:31] <popey> gord: with a guest account I have added some files to Documents but they dont show up in the files lens.. is there some way to trigger a search?
[12:32] <palnj> directhex: and for sending me my Rubik's cubes from China
[12:33] <palnj> popey: isn't the guest account "guest" temporary? i.e. on logout the users home folder and user account are deleted?
[12:33] <gord> popey, its Zeitgeist, until you open them with something, it doesn't know about them
[12:34] <palnj> gord: then does that mean if I download a document from somewhere
[12:34] <palnj> Online, it won't index it until I open it?
[12:35] <gord> it should do, we have special code for that
[12:35] <palnj> Ah alright
[12:35] <gord> popey, you might want to bug mh3r in #u-unity about it
[12:39] <popey> thanks
[12:51] <palnj> And it's gone quiet again here
[12:51] <palnj> :|
[12:51] <Myrtti> it happens
[12:51]  * KrisDouglas achoo
[12:51] <Myrtti> lunch hour or whatever in UK I believe
[12:52] <palnj> Yeah I know but I'm
[12:52] <KrisDouglas> Nobody in my office eats till about 1pm
[12:52] <palnj> Not hugely hungry
[12:52] <directhex> second breakfast.
[12:52]  * popey just had chilli made in the slow cooker
[12:52] <popey> nom
[12:52] <palnj> KrisDouglas: exactly and at school we eat at like 1.15
[12:52] <palnj> And yay, it's half-term
[12:52] <Myrtti> in Finland the lunch is usually between 10.30 and 12.30
[12:52] <palnj> Anyone despising valentines day tomorrow?
[12:53]  * brobostigon is sad, he just marked a tv prog called charmed on the tv,
[12:53] <palnj> • brobostigon: I'm here for you, man
[12:53] <brobostigon> :)
[12:53] <palnj> Anyways, I guess I am hungry
[12:54] <brobostigon> palnj: and i didnt mean unhappy kind of sad.
[12:54]  * palnj ditches everyone for sausages and toast
[12:54] <Myrtti> aw, BF just got tomorrow off (he has to use the few remaining days off of last years annual leaves before March) - we don't have any idea what to do.
[12:54] <palnj> brobostigon: lol, I see what you mean
[12:54] <brobostigon> palnj: :)
[12:54] <palnj> I'm still here for you though :)
[12:55] <palnj> Charmed
[12:55] <palnj> Is pretty funny though
[12:55] <palnj> At times
[12:55] <palnj> My sister used to be an addict
[12:56] <christel> brobostigon: sok, i used to watch charmed, im a saddo too!
[12:57] <brobostigon> christel: loads of good looking men in it, from what i have been told.
[12:58] <christel> mmm it has julian mcmahon in it, he's pretty fit -- and should you swing the other way there's also alyssa milano.. she is mightily hot! :D
[12:59] <brobostigon> christel: and as you said, good looking women also.
[13:00] <brobostigon> christel: i am a man, i will point out here.
[13:03] <brobostigon> christel: i prefer rose mcgowan, who comes in in season 4.
[13:04]  * brobostigon shuts up now.
[13:04] <tugrik> charmed?
[13:04] <tugrik> *sigh*
[13:05]  * tugrik wanders off into his special place for a bit
[13:06] <popey> gord: do you know what the HDMI ish port is called on the x220? I think I need an adapter
[13:06] <christel> ah yes, the ginger girl, she's pretty good looking :)
[13:07]  * popey googles
[13:07] <jpds> popey: DisplayPort?
[13:07] <popey> jpds: dunno, its not the same as the displayport on my mac
[13:07] <popey> which I guess is mini displayport?
[13:08] <davmor2> popey: is it like a hdmi mini or something?
[13:09] <davmor2> ps popey you could always look in the manual that came with the laptop ;)
[13:10] <popey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVeNdSN41Tg says its displayport
[13:10] <brobostigon> christel: :)
[13:11] <gord> popey, yeah its display port, does the little display port logo over the top not give that away? ;)
[13:11] <popey> aha!
[13:11] <popey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
[13:11]  * popey looks for converters
[13:12] <gord> its the good kind that does passive conversion to hdmi, so a converter should be cheep
[13:12] <popey> they all seem to be a tenner or more
[13:18] <oimon_> why do people rush out and buy albums when singers die? do you think they say "hmm i used to own this on tape..time to buy it again", or "who is this singer i've never heard of, maybe i'll buy the best of..."?
[13:19] <davmor2> oimon_: no it's cause they'll never make music again so you must race out and buy all their music all over again
[13:21] <oimon_> davmor2: i'm not sure WH was in danger of making another record
[13:21] <davmor2> oimon_: I didn't say she was, it's just that people suddenly think about it where as they didn't till she dies
[13:22] <popey> hmm, rhythmbox u1 music store broken in 12.04?
[13:22] <popey> I can't play/preview any tracks
[13:22] <oimon_> popey is trying to buy amy winehouse, MJ and whitney records
[13:22] <gord> oh the u1 store is in rb now?
[13:22] <gord> bye bye banshee!
[13:22] <gord> you won't be missed
[13:22] <popey> well, i activateed the plugin
[13:22] <oimon_> i keep banshee for the amazon purchases
[13:24] <gord> yeah preview doesn't seem to work right now
[13:24] <davmor2> popey: annoy aquarius and it will magically work fairly soonish after :)
[13:24] <czajkowski> oh no more banshee!
[13:24] <czajkowski> thats made my day
[13:25] <davmor2> czajkowski: you're on precise right?
[13:25] <czajkowski> yup
[13:25] <czajkowski> only used banshee as I buy music from U1
[13:25] <popey> bah!
[13:25] <popey> ubuntu-bug rhythmbox
[13:26] <popey> click the button that says it's a u1ms issue
[13:26] <popey> "Package rhythmbox does not exist"
[13:26] <popey> ii  rhythmbox      2.95-0ubuntu2  music player and organizer for GNOME
[13:26] <popey> lies
[13:26]  * popey pokes aquarius with a stick
[13:27] <popey> un  rhythmbox-ubuntuone-music-stor <none>                         (no description available)
[13:27] <popey> yet the plugin exists in rb
[13:29] <davmor2> popey: the webkit breakage may of knocked off all the plugings
[13:29] <davmor2> -g
[13:31]  * aquarius is poked
[13:31] <aquarius> popey, person to talk to about that is dobey, who isn't awake yet
[13:31] <aquarius> popey, he will be soon, though
[13:31] <czajkowski> he does tend to just fix things
[13:31] <czajkowski> very easily
[13:32] <aquarius> is upgrading safe today?
[13:32] <czajkowski> I've not broken anything yet
[13:32] <czajkowski> aquarius: could you pick a less flame bait topic on G+ I tried to follow it and it was a bit long winded !
[13:33] <aquarius> czajkowski, I was looking for advice; that means casting the net wide!
[13:34]  * gord 100+ comments this morning, decided it was too early for google plus
[13:34] <czajkowski> that was a wide discussion so
[13:34] <gord> *saw
[13:36] <popey> i didnt see many flames on that one
[13:36] <popey> was pretty normal discussion
[13:40] <aquarius> *nod* agreed that it was unflamey :)
[13:40] <czajkowski> http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/video-angry-dad-who-read-daughters-facebook-is-viral-hit-after-shooting-her-laptop-3017945.html  impressive.
[13:41] <diplo> heh watched that the other day czajkowski
[13:41] <diplo> People I chatted to about it all think he missed hdd bay :)
[13:41] <oimon_> fallback mode in precise is borken atm :(
[13:43] <Myrtti> did anyone mention N9?
[13:43] <aquarius> no, but I looked at it.
[13:43] <andylockran> hwody
[13:44] <Myrtti> not that I care anymore, but just out of interest
[13:44] <aquarius> hardware seems pretty (which is why it got reused for the lumia :)) Little concerned about platform abandonment.
[13:44] <Myrtti> for all I care Nokia can go die in a fire
[13:45] <gord> that seems a little harsh ;)
[13:45] <gord> if the nokia HQ goes up in flames, i'll know where to look
[13:45] <aquarius> I'm not worried about lack of apps; I am worried that the n9 OS looks suspiciously like an iOS ripoff, that it may not have a very good browser at all, that the primary audience is techie people who think that being able to compile a kernel for a phone is a good thing,and that there's no ongoing development which means that if I have problems I'll be SOL.
[13:46] <popey> the n9 outsold nokias identical windows phone the lumia
[13:46] <popey> despite the n9 not being very easy to get hold of
[13:46] <Myrtti> aquarius: that's why I've not even considered it myself
[13:46] <gordonjcp> gord: are you now picturing Myrtti wearing thick glasses and going "and - i could - i could - i could burn this building down, you know - and i - i ..."
[13:47] <Myrtti> I have a passionate point of view at things that have made my life miserable
[13:47] <aquarius> Myrtti, but at the moment it's roughly equivalent in terms of "I could use it but there are the following problems" with all the other competitors.
[13:47] <gord> i find it suspicious that when the new android revision comes out, suddenly my android phone starts sucking big time
[13:47] <aquarius> every phone on the market seems to have some sort of issue I really don't like about it. I hate being a community of one.
[13:48] <gord> last night it couldn't even do wifi properly
[13:48] <czajkowski> aquarius: what about a bolt on battery on an android phone ? like an external battery or seomthing
[13:48] <czajkowski> I know I've seen something like it for an iphone
[13:49] <aquarius> czajkowski, then I'd have a phone which is an inch thick, which'd piss me off, and that still wouldn't fix how I find Android annoying ;)
[13:49] <Myrtti> I just installed JuiceDefender on my Nexus One and it has made a significant difference
[13:49] <aquarius> oops, sorry.
[13:49] <aquarius> Myrtti, I had JD; either it didn't help, or it did help and it would have been *even worse* without it.
[13:49] <czajkowski> aquarius: perhaps you over use your phone!
[13:49] <aquarius> Last night, however, I broke the rule of a lifetime and installed a custom ROM on my phone, so we'll see if that helps.
[13:49] <hamitron> :)
[13:50] <aquarius> czajkowski, no such thing. That's how I want to use it; therefore I want a phone which can manage it :)
[13:50] <daubers> aquarius: Nah, all smart phones suck in some manner :)
[13:50] <hamitron> not as smart as they like to "think" they are :/
[13:50] <Myrtti> our little household is pondering between Galaxy Note and Galaxy Nexus, it seems
[13:51] <daubers> It's more a case of finding one which sucks least for you
[13:51] <aquarius> daubers, hence me asking the question and the 100 messages on google+ :)
[13:51] <diplo> aquarius, I just moved to Cyagenmod on my phone, Improved battery life no end
[13:52] <aquarius> diplo, which is exactly what I've done, so maybe it'll help :P
[13:52] <daubers> I find battery life ok on my GS II
[13:52] <daubers> until I sit playing games all day
[13:52] <diplo> Did it last weekend, this weekend I left wireless/mobile on from Friday lunch till the 10% warning came up on Sunday early evening!
[13:52] <diplo> that's with twitter/g+/fb usage + calls and texts
[13:52] <diplo> So overall a huge improvement
[13:53] <AlanBell> anyone come across cas before for single sign on http://www.jasig.org/cas
[13:53] <diplo> It seems to bit the wireless/mobilenet in a type of standby
[13:53] <aquarius> biggest problem with the N9 is that I don't even know who to ask questions like "does it support offline web apps" of
[13:53]  * hamitron wants a smart phone without facebook, twitter and email plastered all over it.... cheap
[13:53] <diplo> AlanBell, Nope sorry
[13:54] <Myrtti> aquarius: #harmattan apparently
[13:54] <diplo> I don't tweet/g+ much myself tbh hamitron
[13:54] <aquarius> Myrtti, that's abotu creating native n9 apps, isn't it?
[13:54] <diplo> But it's good for loo reading :)
[13:54] <Myrtti> yeah, but they know a bit or two about the device itself too... or ask twitterverse
[13:55] <hamitron> diplo, I use real paper stuff at the loo ;/
[13:55] <aquarius> AlanBell, you know about jsgf and pocketsphinx?
[13:55] <Myrtti> #N9club/#N950club tags seem to catch some of the people
[13:55] <AlanBell> aquarius: an incy wincy bit
[13:56] <aquarius> AlanBell, you and I need to have a conversation, then, so I can get quentin working :)
[13:56] <AlanBell> aquarius: what is that then?
[13:56] <aquarius> AlanBell, voice control for my machine
[13:56] <aquarius> AlanBell, primarily for media playing, not desktop control
[13:56] <AlanBell> ok
[13:57] <AlanBell> simon-listens is quite effective
[13:57] <AlanBell> the HUD stuff looks almost made for it
[13:58]  * directhex has an n9 on his desk
[13:58] <directhex> also a pre 3
[13:58] <aquarius> AlanBell, my biggest problem is that I don't know how to influence it so that words stay together. So, if I tell it: here is some grammar, "Top Gear", "The IT Crowd", I never want it to consider "Top Crowd" to be a legitimate utterance. And I don't know how :)
[13:58] <aquarius> directhex, pre's no good for me, purely 'cos I don't like hardware keyboards, which is a shame
[13:58] <aquarius> directhex, do you know things about the n9?
[13:58] <directhex> aquarius, i know it's blue
[13:59]  * aquarius laughs
[13:59] <AlanBell> aquarius: http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/sphinx4/javadoc/edu/cmu/sphinx/jsgf/JSGFGrammar.html
 means silence, which I find amusing
[14:00] <directhex> aquarius, it's not the device for me, tbh. it's now my mp3 player and sip phone, but not my all-purpose mobile
[14:00] <aquarius> directhex, I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for that
[14:00] <aquarius> AlanBell, yeah, I read some docs; part of what made me stop playing with it is that the speech stuff wasn't packaged ;(
[14:00] <AlanBell> which part?
[14:01] <directhex> aquarius, a few major major problems with the default apps, combined with a lack of third party apps (compared even to webos)
[14:01] <AlanBell> !info python-pocketsphinx
[14:01] <aquarius> AlanBell, last time I played with this stuff (which was probably 18 months ago, I admit), the packaged versions were broken and old
[14:01] <directhex> aquarius, the main ones are the stress of using it in the car for music & calls, and the twitter app being junk
[14:02] <aquarius> directhex, interesting. I'm not too worried about third-party apps; I have learned that I use about ten apps and that's it. What's stressful about the car?
[14:03] <aquarius> how much does an N9 cost these days? I'll port U1 to it if I get one, so that'll cover most of my needs ;)
[14:03] <AlanBell> aquarius: the julius engine isn't packaged (some doubt about licensing from the japanese university behind it) which is keeping simon-listens out of debian last time I checked, but the cmusphinx and pocketsphinx engines are there (might be old)
[14:03] <directhex> aquarius, let me describe the scene. i play music via the headphone socket on my phone, and when a call comes in, the car switches into bluetooth headset mode & takes the call via the integrated microphone under the dashboard. make sense? this is how i did things with the pre and the htc hero in my android youth
[14:04] <directhex> aquarius, the car absolutely cannot do music via bluetooth, it does not advertise support for the "stereo headphone" profile, only the "headset", "car kit" and "address book" profiles
[14:05] <directhex> aquarius, so the hero was okay with this setup, except after a call i had to unpause the music. the pre3 did everything right.
[14:05] <aquarius> directhex, interesting. That specific point doesn't worry me right at this moment, because I play music in the car by plugging a wire into the headphone socket, but I take your point!
[14:06] <directhex> aquarius, the n9 will only output audio via the most recently connected audio device, full stop. so if i start playback, hit the ignition, then i get about three seconds of audio through the car - until the bluetooth connects, and the phone declares "bluetooth! output all music via bluetooth!"
[14:06]  * aquarius laughs
[14:06] <aquarius> that seems unideal.
[14:06] <AlanBell> hack the car
[14:06] <directhex> aquarius, the fix is to unplug and replug the headphone cable. howEVER, now, if i receive a call, i get silence, because the n9 has declared "headphone! all headset audio via headphone!" instead of bluetooth
[14:07] <directhex> android and webos could handle the mixed scenario. harmattan can not
[14:07] <aquarius> right. That seems a bit broken, indeed; that's what worries me about the N9, not that there are these problems, but that these problems will never ever ever be fixed
[14:08] <Neoti> hi all been a while...
[14:10] <andylockran> it has
[14:10] <andylockran> welcome bck
[14:12] <Neoti> im on the look out for a new job, i know windows stuff, linux stuff, voip stuff/asterisk..... based in nottingham... lolz.
[14:13] <andylockran> Neoti: send your CV to www.medoc.co.uk
[14:13] <andylockran> :p
[14:13] <Neoti> andylockran - www.phillipcooper.co.uk
[14:14] <Neoti> andylockran - http://phillipcooper.co.uk/about-me/my-cv/
[14:14] <Neoti> but i will also email them
[14:14] <Neoti> thanks andylockran
[14:16] <directhex> aquarius, the 1.2 update is due soon. it may fix some retardation
[14:17] <directhex> aquarius, the other painful one is that the design specs say your app should prompt for internet access if needed - but the twitter app takes it to extremes, and spams "connect to internet" popups if you're offline (e.g. on a eurostar)
[14:18] <aquarius> ouch
[14:23] <aquarius> ooh, http://www.developer.nokia.com/Resources/Library/Web/nokia-browsers/nokia-browser-85-for-meego-12-harmattan/html5-support/offline-storage/application-cache.html implies that the n9 supports offline web apps.
[14:23] <aquarius> suddenly I am leaning towards an n9.
[14:23] <Neoti> andylockran email sent thanks!
[14:25] <Myrtti> oh no
[14:25] <Myrtti> I should have kept quiet about N9
[14:25] <aquarius> Myrtti, this seems... promising.
[14:25] <Myrtti> you're giving money to the devil :-|
[14:25]  * Myrtti goes to sacrifice her old 3310 on the altar
[14:26] <Myrtti> fortunately I can't keep angry for long
[14:26] <aquarius> Myrtti, buying a competent smartphone is merely deciding which devil to give money to.
[14:27] <Myrtti> indeed
[14:28] <Myrtti> well atleast if you get one assembled in Finland you know that labourwise you've given your money to the marginally lesser evils
[14:28] <Myrtti> ie. not Foxconn
[14:29] <directhex> didn't nokia close their salo factory?#
[14:30] <directhex> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/09/technology/nokia-to-cut-4000-jobs-at-3-factories.html
[14:30] <Myrtti> not yet
[14:30] <Myrtti> it was just announced last week, it's not an instant process
[14:31] <Myrtti> and the whole factory isn't going to go apparently
[14:33] <directhex> yet
[14:33] <Myrtti> yet.
[14:37] <jonsaint> hi all, need some help! all my pcs are now running ubuntu but thing is, how can i block websites?? im asking this because of my kids.
[14:37] <s-fox> Hello.
[14:37] <directhex> jonsaint, OS-agnostic solution is http://www.opendns.com/
[14:38] <hamitron> jonsaint, I like opendns
[14:38] <hamitron> ^ beat me to it :/
[14:38] <dogmatic69> jonsaint: easy way is hosts file
[14:38] <jonsaint> how does it actually work?
[14:38] <dogmatic69> just add <IP_ADDRESS> site.com
[14:38] <dogmatic69> redirects site.com to <IP_ADDRESS>
[14:38] <jpds> dogmatic69: Sounds like a large hosts file is coming up.
[14:39] <aquarius> jonsaint, is your plan to (a) prevent access to certain named sites, or (b) allow access only to certain named sites and block all the others, or (c) have someone else decide on a list of all sites that should be blocked and use that list?
[14:40] <directhex> jonsaint, a DNS server is like an internet phonebook which turns an address (like www.ubuntu.com) into an actual network address (like <IP_ADDRESS>) - if you replace your ISP's DNS server with opendns, then you can use their service to filter out certain classes of site from their name resolution
[14:40] <jonsaint> aquarius,  its to stop my kids going on sites i dont want them on, i want to choose what sites to block
[14:40] <hamitron> opendns is certainly easiest
[14:40] <gordonjcp> jonsaint: you could look at the site filtering options in something like OpenWRT
[14:41] <dogmatic69> opendns sounds like a good one, you can just block sites like ...
[14:41] <directhex> the advantage to using opendns for this is you admin it from one place - i.e. you set your router to use opendns, then all computers on your network get opendns-filtered results
[14:41] <aquarius> jonsaint, then the hosts file approach is the low-budget super-techie way to do it, but it doesn't require any additional software; as mentioned, edit the file /etc/hosts with superuser privileges, and then add "siteiwanttoblock.com <IP_ADDRESS>" on a new line.
[14:41] <gordonjcp> jonsaint: the best method is parental oversight ;-)
[14:41] <hamitron> but that wouldn't block gb.siteiwanttoblock.com
[14:42] <hamitron> ;)
[14:42] <jonsaint> so all in all, whats the best, free way of blocking sites i want to block??
[14:42] <directhex> http://www.opendns.com/home-solutions/parental-controls/
[14:42] <dogmatic69> hamitron: or ninjaproxy.com/siteiwantotblock.com etc
[14:42] <directhex> oh, free. i guess hosts hacking.
[14:43] <jonsaint> aint opendns free?
[14:43] <ikonia> ha ha
[14:43] <hamitron> opendns free package is all i need
[14:43] <gordonjcp> directhex: or OpenWRT
[14:43] <gordonjcp> jonsaint: how old are your children?
[14:43] <directhex> jonsaint, $20 per year for the configurable option
[14:43] <jonsaint> 10 plus one bit older
[14:43] <gordonjcp> jonsaint: this has a bearing on whether or not you want to whitelist or blacklist
[14:43] <hamitron> but then you need to also set a firewall and other stuff on your router, if you think users will try work their way around :/
[14:44] <gordonjcp> jonsaint: okay, you do realise that anything you do to filter their Internet connection will last about ten minutes?
[14:44] <directhex> gordonjcp, yeah, as soon as he gets an advanced degree in wrtology
[14:44] <jonsaint> i got a bt hub which is a router and modem all in one
[14:44] <directhex> heh, yeah. i started surfing for porn at, i dunno, eleven?
[14:44] <directhex> bloody dialup
[14:44] <gordonjcp> kids these days with your high speed internet pr0n
[14:45] <hamitron> directhex, trained you to "wait longer"? ;/
[14:45] <gordonjcp> jonsaint: I'm not sure if the BT Homehub has filtering
[14:45] <gordonjcp> jonsaint: it might do
[14:45] <ikonia> directhex: as in 11.am today ?
[14:45] <jonsaint> no it dont, you have to download their net protect software but its only for crappy windows
[14:46] <gordonjcp> hm, okay
[14:46] <directhex> ikonia, yes, but also when i was 11 years old
[14:46] <jonsaint> anyway folks il give it a go. many thanks for the help and info :-)
[14:47] <hamitron> I'd use opendns, with a firewall to stop outgoing connections, and then run a local proxy
[14:47] <gordonjcp> hamitron: not sure if that'll work
[14:47] <gordonjcp> hamitron: the BT Homehub is pretty locked down
[14:47] <ikonia> directhex: late starter then huh
[14:47] <hamitron> oh, you'd need another device probably
[14:47] <gordonjcp> hamitron: yea
[14:47] <gordonjcp> tbh the best bet would be to just stick a cacheing proxy in
[14:47] <hamitron> sure it can handle opendns and firewall?
[14:48] <gordonjcp> or, you know, watch what your children are doing on the Internet
[14:48] <gordonjcp> and, radical as this idea might sound
[14:48] <hamitron> it is the best
[14:48] <hamitron> ;)
[14:48] <gordonjcp> try actually doing parent-y things
[14:48] <gordonjcp> instead of expecting a magic box to fix it all for you and bring up your children
[14:48] <hamitron> as with many things, tech can't fully replace human input
[14:49]  * gordonjcp <- cynical, has no children
[14:49] <gordonjcp> I was at one point a child though, and I do still have one parent
[14:49] <ikonia> gordonjcp: it's true, bring them up so they are not idiot/scum/liars and can be trusted to surf and take in stuff properly
[14:50] <hamitron> but all kids break rules
[14:50] <hamitron> ;)
[14:50] <gordonjcp> ikonia: what we did for a mate of mine about ten years ago was set up a cacheing proxy
[14:50] <hamitron> if given the chance
[14:50] <gordonjcp> caching? cacheing?
[14:50] <gordonjcp> anyway
[14:50] <gordonjcp> the house rules were, don't go poking about in stuff your parents wouldn't want you looking at
[14:50] <gordonjcp> if you click on something by accident, well these things happen
[14:51] <gordonjcp> but it's all logged and porn popups look very different to a concerted effort to find boobies
[14:51] <gordonjcp> so, play fair
[14:51] <ikonia> gordonjcp: to be honest, my parents trusted me to do what I wanted with most things (interenet wasn't really a big deal at that time) but no matter what I saw, I was sane enough to not send naked picturs of myself on chat rooms etc
[14:51] <gordonjcp> of course if they rooted the proxy and wiped the logs, destroying all the evidence of their deviant pr0n habits, then that just shows initiative, doesn't it?
[14:52] <gordonjcp> ikonia: exactly
[14:52] <hamitron> so does robbing a bank and not getting caught
[14:52] <hamitron> doesn't make it right ;/
[14:52] <directhex> looks like homehub 3 dns cannot be changed, full stop
[14:52] <gordonjcp> directhex: yup
[14:52] <directhex> gotta change dns server on every client pc
[14:52] <ikonia> this stuff about "we need a panic button on facebook" - no your kids need to not send naked photos of themselves to strangers, and you need a slap for bringing them up bad
[14:52] <gordonjcp> ikonia: bingo
[14:53] <directhex> ikonia, can i send naked photos of myself to people i know?
[14:53] <gordonjcp> ikonia: someone I follow on Facebook posted about some rape trial in Ireland
[14:53] <ikonia> directhex: if I'm on the list, sure, I'd hate to miss out
[14:53] <hamitron> I still think it is easy for a child to be misled
[14:53] <AlanBell> ikonia: that panic button thing is a big fat PR scam
[14:53] <hamitron> not all the parents fault
[14:53] <gordonjcp> ikonia: where the outrage is that the judge has said that the rape victim may have, by wandering around town late at night wearing not much, may just have some responsibility herself for what happened
[14:54] <ikonia> AlanBell: thank you for lifting the wool from my eyes, ;)
[14:54] <ikonia> gordonjcp: insanity
[14:54] <AlanBell> ikonia: I actually am registered as an official somethingorother to do with that
[14:54] <ikonia> AlanBell: I look forward to chatting to you when I hit the panic button as directhex has sent me his naked pictures
[14:55] <AlanBell> I filled out the form and said I would like to implement a panic button for Ubuntu, so I wanted access to their sekrit resources
[14:55] <directhex> you prefer the shots in leather or latex?
[14:55] <gordonjcp> to which I'm tempted to reply saying that if you wander around with a fat roll of 20s in your pocket and you get robbed walking around drunk in a bad area at midnight, who is really to blame?
[14:55] <hamitron> poor ikonia? o.O
[14:55] <AlanBell> which turned out to be one .gif file
[14:55] <ikonia> directhex: surprise me.
[14:55] <directhex> steel it is!
[14:55] <hamitron> gordonjcp, you, for not kicking their butt ;)
[14:55] <ikonia> directhex: cold steel ?
[14:56] <gordonjcp> ikonia: or the girl who came into the noodle bar on Saturday with an equally pissed-up group of her friends
[14:56] <ikonia> gordonjcp: I bet 20+ morons hit "like" on that link
[14:56] <directhex> ikonia, how else?
[14:56] <ikonia> directhex: just checking
[14:56] <gordonjcp> ikonia: wearing what looked like half an Ann Summers-style outfit
[14:56] <ikonia> clearly I need to frequent noodle bars
[14:57] <gordonjcp> ikonia: and then started giving some random guy a lapdance while her friends cheered her on
[14:57] <gordonjcp> stay classy
[14:57] <ikonia> can't wait to take her home to meet the family
[14:57] <AlanBell> I am delighted to tell you that your registration to access our Digital Asset Library for an Ubuntu Linux desktop application has been accepted and you have now joined literally thousands of professionals from across the UK working with us to make the internet a safer place for young users.
[14:57] <ikonia> AlanBell: I'm sleeping easy tonight
[14:57] <gordonjcp> ikonia: indeed
[14:58] <AlanBell> ceop is a marketing scam
[15:05] <oimon_> hamitron: opendns went crazy on me the other day and haven't changed back yet - did you have the same probs?
[15:05] <oimon_> started blocking search engines as a disallowed site
[15:15] <BigRedS> Hm. Finding packages for Etch is rather harder than I'd imagined
[15:17] <aquarius> BigRedS, that's because it's been out of support for about a hundred years :P
[15:20] <BigRedS> aquarius: pffft. details! :)
[15:28] <hamitron> oimon_, didn't notice
[15:29] <oimon_> hamitron: hmm. could access most sites, almost missed my train changing the dns on the router before leaving for work so mrs could do stuff
[15:29] <hamitron> sorry for delay, disadvantage of using loads of machines at once
[15:29] <hamitron> ;)
[15:29] <oimon_> s/could/could not
[15:29] <hamitron> :/
[15:29] <zleap> hello
[15:29] <hamitron> it let me open a site it should have had blocked a while ago
[15:30] <hamitron> but was a one off
[15:32] <oimon_> which one ? ilovesheep.com?
[15:33] <zleap> wha command shows processes running
[15:33] <oimon_> top
[15:33] <zleap> what is the otherone
[15:33] <oimon_> ps -ef
[15:33] <zleap> thats it
[15:33] <zleap> thanks
[15:34] <zleap> ok according to that i have openssh server running
[15:34] <zleap> which is good
[15:38] <hamitron> oimon_, some facebook page
[16:01] <oimon_> mmm after-eight sweets..best things out there
[16:02] <oimon_> AKA mintoes?
[16:05] <christel> after eights <3
[16:06] <oimon_> sending off 4 delay repay forms to my train company :(
[16:09] <BigRedS> you have a train company?
[16:15] <oimon_> i pay so much i feel that i'm a part owner.
[16:16] <oimon_> conveniently they changed franchise last week so the previous delays probably won't be honoured (even though the addresses of the offices are all the same etc)
[16:21] <dwatkins> after eights are minty choclatey things, I don't think they're the same as mintoes
[16:22] <KrisDouglas> Does anyone here follow the elementary project, and if so, what are your thoughts on the user interface guidelines?
[16:28] <oimon_> dwatkins: mint munchies?
[16:28] <oimon_> ah, mintola!
[16:28] <oimon_> In 1995, the confectionery formerly known as Mintola (near-identical in appearance to Munchies, but consisting of plain chocolate with a mint fondant centre) was renamed Mint Munchies.[2] In 2006, Mint Munchies were again renamed, this time as After Eight Bitesize.[3]
[16:29] <oimon_> so sooooo good
[16:29] <dwatkins> 'After Eight Thin Mints (After Eights) are a confectionery product described as "mint enrobed in dark chocolate"'
[16:29] <bigcalm> I miss the pirimint (that nobody else remembers)
[16:30] <oimon_> i also have love hearts, but they make my tummy bloty
[16:30] <oimon_> bloaty
[16:30] <KrimZon_2> what were pirimint?
[16:31] <davmor2> dwatkins: Come on sir one wafffffffer thin mint
[16:31] <oimon_> just had 2 manic hours where i shaved 4 tedious items off the to-do list..one more to do before hometime :D
[16:32]  * dwatkins ponders clcling in tomorrow
[16:32] <dwatkins> also, cycling, perhaps
[16:40] <oimon_> what todo list management can you guys recommend? i use google stuff a lot if it helps
[16:41] <dwatkins> I tend to keep a list of stuff on springpad, oimon_ - not quite a todo list, but it syncs nicely between devices most of the time
[16:41] <oimon_> dwatkins: sounds similar to my existing arrangement of a TODO note on tomboy
[16:42] <daubers> oimon_: Post it notes, a pen and a bin :)
[16:42] <oimon_> i am also looking forward to getting a stylus for my touchpad though...
[16:42] <oimon_> post it notes don't sync very well
[16:44] <oimon_> found a brilliant app for my 2yr old..called drumkit
[16:44] <dwatkins> post-it notes are difficult to transport.
[16:44] <oimon_> also good for the 2yr old in me...
[16:46] <oimon_> finally remembered to download the free copy of linux journal for the train journey
[16:49] <oimon_> if i use disk utility to encrpy a drive, what method is it using? cryptoluks? something else?
[16:49] <oimon_> s/encrpy/encrypt
[16:52] <oimon_> looks like luks
[16:54] <daubers> Probably is luks using cryptsetup
[17:07] <DJones> Hmmh, just been asked by one of the directors at work, if they get rid of our IT support contract, would I be happy taking over the admin of a couple of server.....Let's think.... Windows server (very old version), Obsolete hardware held together with glue & rubber bands, hard drives stuffed full & nothing can be deleted, no backups.......Er No thanks
[17:08] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: did you want to come to the rugby meet up?
[17:08] <popey> hah DJones
[17:09] <DJones> popey: They were the up-sides to it :)
[17:10] <gord> cool, nabbed bug 670000 in gnome
[17:10] <gord> round numbers \o/
[17:10] <gord> shut up ubutu
[17:13] <popey> gnome bug 670000
[17:13] <popey> ☺
[17:15] <gord> clever
[18:24] <zleap> will gwibber have support for google+
[18:26] <davmor2> zleap: from the twitter-sphere I see that there is a provisional branch which for now just authenticates and not much else so WIP
[18:28] <MartijnVdS> g+ has an api now?
[18:28] <zleap> ok
[18:29] <zleap> ok thanks
[18:29] <zleap> just got gwibber face book and facebook chat working
[18:29] <gord> few months ago i heard that google would api up the hangouts stuff, would be awesome
[18:30] <Myrtti> MartijnVdS: afaik it has had a read-only API for some time now
[18:31] <zleap> sounds good
[18:39] <AlanBell> https://developers.google.com/+/hangouts/
[18:44]  * popey pokes marxjohnson
[18:44]  * marxjohnson knows, and will sort it out in a minute
[18:45] <popey> hah
[18:49] <marxjohnson> it should be good to go, if you copy podpress.css and podpress_theme.css and put them back in after the update that should work
[18:49] <marxjohnson> If not, I'll make sure I fix it before Ep0 is out
[18:50] <marxjohnson> sorry, podpress_theme.php
[18:52] <popey> k
[18:53] <popey> will have a go later, ta
[18:57] <jaustin> join /ubuntu-release
[18:57] <jaustin> gah
[18:57] <MartijnVdS> it's not April yet ;)
[19:42] <solakola> hi
[19:42] <zleap> hi
[19:42] <daubers> o/
[19:42]  * zleap is reading linux magazine
[19:42] <zleap> got it for £1  as I had a £5 mail rewards voucher
[19:42] <zleap> acutally no 99p
[19:43] <zleap> as its £5.99
[19:52] <siamese> hi
[19:52] <siamese> fail
[19:56] <zleap> hi
[19:56] <zleap> why fail ?
[19:56] <Azelphur> zleap: because you failed :o
[19:57] <zleap> why have i failed
[19:57] <Azelphur> I havn't decided a reason yet, but I can assure you that you failed
[19:57]  * zleap looks at windows PC and can confirm its off
[19:57] <Azelphur> lol
[19:57]  * zleap looks at ubuntu box and can confirm its working
[19:58]  * zleap looks at printer error and confirms its not fixed yet
[19:58] <Azelphur> hehe
[19:58] <zleap> 3 computers running 11.10
[19:59] <zleap> 1 of which is dual boot with Windows
[20:14] <zleap> i seem to have 3 stuffed toy tux penguins,  and 1 tux stress shape
[21:09] <MartijnVdS> Aww: http://i.imgur.com/MAtr9.jpg
[21:15] <zleap> cool
[21:15] <zleap> lego dog tags
[21:15] <zleap> now stand 2 people back to back,  and clip em together using lego :D
[21:16] <MartijnVdS> zleap: Well the two parts form a heart.. like the ones people wear shared with their boy/girlfriend
[21:16] <zleap> ah sorry
[21:17] <zleap> i see that shape now :D
[21:17] <MartijnVdS> zleap: you still have time before Valentine's day l;)
[21:17]  * zleap has lego in the attic
[21:17] <zleap> :(
[21:18] <MartijnVdS> zleap: Run up there, find pieces, find 2 chains, give to gf?
[21:18] <zleap> ok will need to find a gf too
[21:18] <zleap> no I don't keep any in the attic
[21:18] <MartijnVdS> Basement?
[21:18] <zleap> nope
[21:18]  * popey has lego in the lounge
[21:18] <zleap> yay
[21:20]  * MartijnVdS has some lego as well
[21:20] <MartijnVdS> but I don't know if I have that piece
[21:20] <zleap> hmm
[21:20] <zleap> nor me
[21:20] <zleap> i have lots of lego castle parts
[21:23] <zleap> http://www.leocad.org/trac
[21:23] <zleap> that pic looks cool
[21:24] <zleap> is there a ubuntu package for that in the repos
[21:25] <zleap> well to asnwer that no, not in software center anyway
[21:41] <brunogirin> popey: what sort of lego?
[21:42] <brunogirin> does anybody know what package I should report a defect against if I have a problem in system settings?
[21:43] <popey> gnome-control-center
[21:43] <brunogirin> thanks popey!
[21:43] <popey> np
[21:43] <czajkowski> *yawns*
[21:43] <czajkowski> am pooped
[21:58] <AlanBell> hard day at work?


[00:51] <guiverc> does KDE/Qt have a fonts viewer; if so what's it called please. I see reference to kfontview, but can't seem to find it  (I'm actually running lxqt/lubuntu & want to avoid using gnome-font-viewer).  Any help/response would be appreciated
[01:34] <mparillo> It is called Font Management in System Settings
[01:39] <mparillo> Based on BKO, it would be kcm_fonts, but I cannot launch that from the konsole.
[01:42] <mparillo> But kfontview does launch from my konsole.
[02:10] <guiverc> thank you heaps mparillo :)  greatly appreciated (sorry was busy elsewhere).
[02:10] <guiverc> thanks heaps mparillo
[02:11] <guiverc> ^ wxl
[02:13] <wxl> cool thx :)
[08:45] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Project mgmt_docker » linode-01 build #3082: SUCCESS in 48 sec: https://kci.pangea.pub/job/mgmt_docker/label=linode-01/3082/
[08:46] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Project mgmt_docker » master build #3082: SUCCESS in 1 min 47 sec: https://kci.pangea.pub/job/mgmt_docker/label=master/3082/
[08:49] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Project mgmt_docker » swy-01 build #3082: SUCCESS in 4 min 26 sec: https://kci.pangea.pub/job/mgmt_docker/label=swy-01/3082/
 @Santa, uploaded
 @RikMills, thank you very much
[12:20] <BluesKaj> howdy folks
 @DarinMiller did you manage to test 5.12.8 from Bionic proposed?
 Yes. Test worked great. However I tested the entire proposed repo not just the kde bits.
 @DarinMiller, In that case, when you have time, could you comment on: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plasma-desktop/+bug/1819075
[14:45] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Project mgmt_docker » linode-01 build #3083: SUCCESS in 49 sec: https://kci.pangea.pub/job/mgmt_docker/label=linode-01/3083/
[14:46] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Project mgmt_docker » master build #3083: SUCCESS in 1 min 29 sec: https://kci.pangea.pub/job/mgmt_docker/label=master/3083/
[14:49] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Project mgmt_docker » swy-01 build #3083: SUCCESS in 4 min 23 sec: https://kci.pangea.pub/job/mgmt_docker/label=swy-01/3083/
 Commented as requested.  Saw the comments regarding KDE connect so I verified KDE connect functionality.
 Thanks!
[15:16] <BluesKaj> DarinMiller, KDEconnect not seeing other devices here
[15:16] <BluesKaj> on 19.10
 I will try 19.10 shortly....
[15:17] <BluesKaj> ok
 kde connect working fine with Eoan here... .but I am a bit behind on Eoan updates (running now).... will verify again when updates complete...
[15:35] <BluesKaj> DarinMiller, thanks :-)
 Volume control does not work Eoan, but everything else seems to be working fine.  Need to run now, will test more later...
 @RikMills  when will libkf5purpose5 issue will be resolved? :(
 Its something that will just happen every so often. packaging can't fix it
 https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/MPhQZv6zvB/
 :9
 :(
 accidentally removed plasma-widgets-addons by forcing install the libf5purpose5 .. how to undo :*
[16:11] -kubuntu-ci:#kubuntu-devel- Project eoan_stable_kaccounts-integration build #17: FAILURE in 5 min 10 sec: https://kci.pangea.pub/job/eoan_stable_kaccounts-integration/17/
 will staging kci will having the same prob with libf5purpose5?
 libkf5purpose-bin plasma-widgets-addons qml-module-org-kde-purpose removed :(
 always chack what apt is going to do
 some new builds doing now should fix things in short term
 @RikMills, yeah my bad :( ..
 anything that i can do to undo what i've done
 force install the package ?
 wait a while, then try to install what got uninstalled once new builds are done
 @RikMills, ok thanks!
 the package just available .. thanks!


[00:04] <der|> I've used bzr without any problems so far when adding/pushing on linux. I'm using bzr on windows now, and 90% of the time,when I add or push to a repository, I get this message: "Unable to obtain lock file....", it's on a point that it's annoying, is there any way to fix that problem ?
[00:07] <igc> morning
[00:10] <meoblast001> hi
[00:11] <meoblast001> i'm having a problem with fast-import
[00:11] <meoblast001> http://pastebin.com/d449f0c4d
[00:12] <spiv> igc: ^
[00:12] <meoblast001> spiv: does igc do fast-import?
[00:13] <spiv> meoblast001: yeah
[00:13] <igc> meoblast001: which version of bzr and bzr-fastimport?
[00:13] <meoblast001> 2.0 of bzr
[00:13] <meoblast001> let me check the bzr-fastimport version
[00:14] <meoblast001> dang it, i can't figure this out
[00:14] <igc> meoblast001: bzr plugins
[00:14] <meoblast001> igc: how do i get fast import version?
[00:14] <igc> should tell you
[00:14] <meoblast001> fastimport 0.9.0dev
[00:15] <igc> meoblast001: ok, so it's reasonably recent
[00:15] <igc> meoblast001: did you install it from apt? or are you running from a branch?
[00:15] <meoblast001> branch
[00:16] <meoblast001> i believe
[00:16] <igc> meoblast001: ok, so try this ...
[00:16] <meoblast001> igc: i exported my project, modified a few mistakes i made at commit 1, updating the sizes as i went
[00:16] <igc> cd ~/.bazaar/plugins/fastimport
[00:16] <meoblast001> i removed 9 characters from each file
[00:16] <meoblast001> and if i did my math right, i subtracted 9 from each file's size
[00:16] <igc> bzr revno
[00:17] <meoblast001> 243
[00:17] <igc> ok, 263 is the latest, so
[00:17] <igc> bzr pull
[00:17] <igc> meoblast001: ^
[00:17] <meoblast001> ok
[00:18] <meoblast001> don't think that will help, but what will it hurt
[00:18] <meoblast001> ok, updated to 261
[00:18] <meoblast001> igc: maybe you need to bzr push ;)
[00:19] <igc> meoblast001: if the problem is still there, raise a bug please and I'll take a look later today
[00:20] <meoblast001> i might be the problem
[00:20] <meoblast001> is it possible i did math wrong?
[00:21] <spiv> meoblast001: that doesn't look like the sort of error I'd expect if you did
[00:21] <meoblast001> oh :/
[00:21] <spiv> meoblast001: I could be wrong, of course :)
[00:21] <meoblast001> should i re fast-export and try again?
[00:22] <meoblast001> i wrote a program a while ago that automates these changes
[00:22] <meoblast001> let me see if i can find it
[00:22] <meoblast001> yuck, C++
[00:22] <meoblast001> i thought i did it in C
[00:31] <meoblast001> spiv: igc: i redid the import and it worked
[00:39] <spiv> meoblast001: hooray :)
[00:58] <zsquareplusc> is it possible to fix a bug number entered with --fixes later? (i.e. many commits later)
[00:58] <poolie> zsquareplusc: not as such
[00:59] <poolie> only by uncommitting and redoing things
[00:59] <poolie> which is probably not worth it
[00:59] <poolie> is this on lp or elsewhere?
[00:59] <zsquareplusc> someone mistyped a bug number back in july. he remeved the related bug in the launchpad interface, but now it apears again. maybe th they rescanned the branch
[01:03] <zsquareplusc> it would be good if it were possible the edit the comments/metadata for such cases...
[01:19] <igc> poolie: I'm reviewing https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mbp/bzr/remove-logging/+merge/15306
[01:20] <igc> poolie: does it require a bump of the bzrlib API version?
[01:20] <igc> I'm thining about the constructor changes for TextUIFactory() mentioned in NEWS
[01:21] <poolie> igc, it is an api bump
[01:21] <poolie> are we measuring apis per 2.1beta?
[01:22] <igc> poolie: wasn't sure, just wondering
[01:23] <igc> poolie: I haven't looked over the policy lately
[01:24] <poolie> i think the six month cycle probably makes api versions redundant
[01:24] <spiv> I think we were just going to have a 2.1 API, rather than per-beta.
[01:24] <poolie> because between betas there are no guarantees, in a stable series there will be no changes, and between series there are guaranteed to be changes
[01:30] <spiv> Yeah.
[02:11] <igc> spiv: care to land https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~spiv/bzr/hardlink-2a-408193/+merge/15591?
[02:12] <spiv> igc: will do shortly :)
[02:12] <igc> spiv: thanks :-)
[02:14] <poolie> igc: the sysadmins started on the web server cleanup etc
[02:57] <neoTheCat> newbie here... if i have a centralized repository, and i went to have a long bath (e.g. documents/programming/guides/...", but i want the leaf directories to be it's own revision, what's the best way to set this up?
[02:58] <neoTheCat> i setup "documents" as the repos, but i am not to sure the best "bzr" way to do it without causing myself problems down the road
[03:17] <gutworth> do bzr ini multiple times
[03:17] <gutworth> bzr init I mean
[03:28]  * igc lunch
[03:30] <neoTheCat> gutworth: do a bzr init on each dir in the tree, or just the ones i want to have seperate revisions for?
[03:33] <gutworth> neoTheCat: just the ones you want separate revisions for
[03:33] <gutworth> they'll be different branches
[03:33] <neoTheCat> gutworth: thank you very much.
[05:46] <mrooney> hello all, my push was interrupted by a network disconnection, so I tried pushing again and it said there was a lock
[05:46] <mrooney> so I ran the command it supplied, but that gives me an unsupported protocol error
[05:50] <mrooney> okay, I fixed it by changing the syntax of the command based on https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-code/+question/74032, but, why does it give the wrong command?
[05:52] <spiv> mrooney: because of a bzr bug, just a sec I'll find the number
[05:53] <spiv> mrooney: bug 250451
[05:54] <spiv> mrooney: the bug comments have the gory details
[05:55] <mrooney> spiv: ah neato, thanks for pointing me to the bug!
[06:40] <poolie> spiv, hi
[06:40] <spiv> poolie: good afternoon
[06:44] <poolie> how are you?
[06:44] <poolie> i was just thinking about the lp: anonymous case
[06:44] <poolie> because it also came up in this spurious comparison to hg
[06:45] <spiv> Pretty good, I'm digging into the per-file merge hook bug/feature atm.
[06:45] <spiv> What's your current thoughts on the lp: anonymous case?
[06:45] <poolie> i'd do whichever option is easiest to implement on the lp side
[06:46] <spiv> I'm inclined a bit towards doing it via anonymous ssh, but I think that's partly because I know off the top of my which bits to hack on to make that happen.
[06:46] <poolie> also, i'd think about getting rid of the lp: xmlrpc and just mechanically transform the url
[06:46] <poolie> then the server can redirect if the branch should be taken from elsewhere
[06:46] <poolie> however, that would be a loss of capability a way to send that is actually written
[06:46] <spiv> Redirect via HTTP or a branch ref?
[06:47] <spiv> The server could simply alias, too.
[06:47] <poolie> i was wondering if you'd like to hack on that to keep your hand in
[06:47] <poolie> right, any of them
[06:47] <poolie> there is the case of say redirecting to http under heavy load
[06:47] <poolie> not sure if this is important enough to worry about
[06:49] <spiv> I am tempted to hack on that.
[06:49] <spiv> In some ways I think bzr+ssh is the less risky option too, because the WSGI glue isn't as battle tested.
[06:49] <spiv> I have some fears about its memory consumption.
[06:49] <poolie> oh my other thought is that it would be interesting to break down the time to get an initial branch of some small project
[06:49] <poolie> the whole thing from start to finish
[06:50] <poolie> including dns, xmlrpc, ssh startup, etc
[06:50] <spiv> The big downside for bzr+ssh for small projects is the 5+ seconds of SSH handshake overhead.
[06:50] <poolie> it may be that we should recommend some ssh settings to cut down on that
[06:50] <poolie> right, or it may be that the best case for ssh is still noticeably slow
[06:51] <spiv> I think multiple round-trips is pretty unavoidable for SSH handshakes without the fiddly persistent connections feature.
[06:51] <spiv> Which is sufficiently fiddly that I don't even use it.
[06:52] <spiv> So I think that this would be a potentially big point in favour of hpss-over-http instead.
[06:54] <poolie> right
[06:54] <poolie> hm
[06:55] <poolie> is it really 5s?
[06:58] <poolie> well, 4.5s for me
[06:58] <poolie> probably speed of light bounded
[07:08] <spiv> poolie: hmm, yeah, 4.2s for me I guess.
[07:08] <poolie> so perhaps that invalidates this bug
[07:08] <poolie> well
[07:08] <poolie> at least deprioritizes it
[07:08] <spiv> Yeah.
[07:08] <poolie> if you could do it in a trivial patch, it'd be worth having at least for testing purposes
[07:09] <poolie> and it will be an improvement over http
[07:09] <poolie> but not so clearly so
[07:09] <poolie> for example http is faster for bzr info
[07:14] <poolie> lifeless: when james_w says "updated package targeted to -proposed" just what does that mean?
[07:15] <poolie> actually -> #ubuntu-motu
[07:39] <vila> hi all
[07:39] <mwhudson> spiv, poolie: i think we can easily run bzr+http on a separate box from the main code host
[07:39] <poolie> hi vila
[07:39] <mwhudson> which will at least mean that memory gobbling will not affect other services
[07:40] <poolie> vila, good luck piloting
[07:40] <poolie> ok
[07:40] <mwhudson> vila: good morning
[07:40] <poolie> mwhudson: wbn to have metrics in place from the begining
[07:40] <vila> poolie: thanks !
[07:40] <mwhudson> poolie: which ones did you have in mind?
[07:40] <poolie> hm
[07:41] <poolie> number of connections, number of crashes, number of distinct ips
[07:41] <poolie> something like that
[07:41] <mwhudson> i don't know much about sensible bzr+http deployment, would process per connection make sense?
[07:41] <mwhudson> poolie: for bzr+http, apache logs can probably give us most of that
[07:42] <poolie> yes
[07:42] <spiv> mwhudson: "connection" isn't a directly applicable concept for HTTP
[07:42] <mwhudson> spiv: even bzr+http?
[07:42] <mwhudson> it's _really easy_ for us to handle the .bzr/smart requests separately
[07:42] <spiv> mwhudson: I mean, at some level there are sockets.
[07:43] <spiv> And a one-to-one mapping of processes to those probably would work well...
[07:43] <spiv> But configuring that via Apache or whatever when there's HTTP in the middle might not be simple.
[07:45] <mwhudson> spiv: there are forking wsgi servers i think?
[07:45] <spiv> mwhudson: quite possibly
[07:45] <spiv> mwhudson: basically it's 'research required', I think
[07:46] <spiv> mwhudson: I'm sure it's possible, but the exact software and config to do it wel  isn't immediately obvious to me
[07:46] <mwhudson> i guess this is an argument for just putting "4133: bzr lp-serve --inet anonymous" in /etc/inetd.conf or whatever
[07:46] <spiv> mwhudson: yeah.
[07:47] <spiv> mwhudson: incidentally, someone should do something about the ~anonymous user ;)
[07:47] <mwhudson> spiv: like our friendly losa spm?
[07:48] <spiv> mwhudson: quite probably
[07:58] <spm> do we have a bonefide account as ~anony?
[07:58] <spm> ha. yes.
[08:23] <mohit> hey guys
[08:23] <mohit> How do I prevent a repository from accidentally being pushed to?
[08:24] <mohit> Does bzr provide any such functionality, or I have to change the file permissions on the OS to achieve the result?
[08:24] <spiv> mohit: in what context?
[08:25] <spiv> mohit: file permissions in the OS is often a good answer
[08:25] <mohit> I have a "LIVE" repository, which powers production systems
[08:25] <mohit> all the development branches are spun from it
[08:25] <mohit> I dont want anyone to accidentally push to production
[08:26] <mohit> Okay
[08:26] <mohit> there is no way bzr provides such "lock" or something?
[08:26] <mohit> changing chmod on main trunk is something I am awry of
[08:26] <spiv> It sounds perhaps like you want chown rather than chmod
[08:27] <spiv> But either could work, and would be fine.
[08:27] <spiv> bzr itself doesn't do access control.
[08:30] <mohit> okay
[08:30]  * igc dinner
[08:42] <mohit> thanks a lot man
[08:43] <mohit> spiv, You are awesome! :-)
[10:19] <bialix> hello
[10:19] <jelmer> 'morning bialix
[10:19] <bialix> good day jelmer!
[14:35] <The_User> Hi! I try to use BzrGit, so  I installed dulwich, but I still get: "no module named git.remote", how to install this module?
[14:37] <jelmer> The_User, hi
[14:37] <jelmer> The_User, how did you install bzr-git?
[14:37] <The_User> I guess I have to run setup.py? what would be the correct prefix?
[14:39] <jelmer> put it in ~/.bazaar/plugins/git
[14:40] <The_User> ah got it, had to remove the original dir from ~/.bazaar/plugins
[14:40] <The_User> thanks
[14:58] <TakWork> hm, is there a way to add available statuses to a launchpad project‽
[15:06] <jelmer> TakWork, bug statusses you mean?
[15:06] <TakWork> yes
[15:06] <TakWork> basically, I was wanting NEEDINFO
[15:07] <jelmer> we usually use incomplete for that
[15:10] <TakWork> ah, ok
[15:10] <TakWork> I didn't want the reporter to feel chastised ;-)
[15:10] <rubbs> Usually, if you report Invalid, you want to tell the user why. If you say you need more info, then they probably won't feel chastised, even if you mark it as invalid
[15:12] <TakWork> it's our first user - I don't want to scare him off :-D
[15:13] <rubbs> fair enough.
[15:13] <rubbs> Maybe keep status the same (*new*) and then ask for information. If it's more like a conversation, they are less scared (*as a somewhat new user to bug filing myself *)
[15:13] <TakWork> yeah, that's what I did
[15:14] <rubbs> but there is no exact science
[15:14] <rubbs> I think that's a good idea then.
[15:27] <TakWork> jelmer: could you update your md-bzr addin repo from trunk, pretty please?
[16:23] <neoTheCat> hello.  i asked a question yesterday, and it was answered, but i have a followup.  if i have a long directory structure, the root being a repo, and i want the leaf to be different revisions.
[16:23] <neoTheCat> do i need to init every directory level or just the leaf nodes?  because i am having trouble doing a "bzr push"
[16:56] <gioele> neoTheCat: bzr init-repo on the root, then bzr init of each leaf directory
[16:58] <neoTheCat> gioele: thanks
[18:52] <mwhudson> in mooloolaba the question was asked "what can bazaar do to make launchpad's job easier"
[18:53] <mwhudson> right now, i would really really really really like bounded memory consumption for bzr serve processes
[19:00] <elmo> I second mwhudson's request.  with cherries on top.
[19:01] <mwhudson> elmo: good evenin
[19:01] <mwhudson> g
[19:53] <tsmith> hey
[19:53] <tsmith> how am I supposed to get bzr-svn working in Cygwin??????
[19:55] <flvr8> hey all, the eclipse update site for the eclipse plugin seems to have a config issue. is there anybody around who can give it a kick
[19:56] <tsmith> are you talking about how it NEVER saves bzr config changes?
[19:59] <flvr8> no, it's just not working.... "No repository found at http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/3rd-party/bzr-eclipse/" when I try to add as an update site
[19:59] <flvr8> so there must be a config file missing, permissions issue, or similar
[20:00] <tsmith> o that's been dead for ages
[20:00] <tsmith> i'll get you the one i used
[20:00] <flvr8> ah ok
[20:00] <tsmith> if you figure out how to get bzr-svn for cygwin, let me know lol
[20:01] <flvr8> it's still referenced on the bazaar wiki
[20:01] <tsmith> can you edit the wiki?
[20:02] <flvr8> yeah, looks like i can...what's the right site?
[20:02] <tsmith> alright you read, flvr8 ?
[20:02] <tsmith> http://verterok.com.ar/bzr-eclipse/update-site/
[20:03] <flvr8> ah yeah, that's listed there already as "development snapshots". would prefer to stick with "stable" (at least for the non bleeding-edge ppl on my team)
[20:03] <flvr8> http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrEclipse/Installation
[20:03] <tsmith> yeah see, they pulled it
[20:04] <tsmith> http://<IP_ADDRESS>/search?q=cache:uxRjqo09d88J:bazaar-vcs.org/releases/3rd-party/bzr-eclipse/+http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/3rd-party/bzr-eclipse/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
[20:04] <tsmith> it existed as late as mid-Nov 09
[20:04] <verterok> flvr8: Hi, I'll check with a sysadmin why the "stable" update site isn't working
[20:04] <tsmith> http://<IP_ADDRESS>/search?q=cache:3AJYGPdkifgJ:https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/492400+http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/3rd-party/bzr-eclipse/&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
[20:04] <verterok> flvr8: in the meantime, try using the one at verterok.com.ar
[20:04] <tsmith> there's the bug report
[20:04] <flvr8> cool
[20:05] <tsmith> people in here don't reall seem to care, to be honest
[20:05] <tsmith> everyone just tells you to use the dev builds
[20:13] <bialix> tsmith: care about what?
[20:14] <tsmith> bialix, that the link to the stable eclipse bzr plugin listed on the wiki has been broken for ~16 days
[20:15] <bialix> your wordings a bit sharp
[20:16] <tsmith> well, to be honest, i was basing my opinion based on the responses of a very few individuals on this channel that may have been trolls.
[20:17] <bialix> I'm sure verterok is the one who really care
[20:17] <bialix> because he's author
[20:17] <verterok> bialix: :)
[20:17] <bialix> I was close?
[20:18] <verterok> bialix: yeap
[20:18] <tsmith> it definitely was not verterok
[20:18] <bialix> :-)
[20:20] <verterok> tsmith, flvr8: looks like some wiki config was changed and it's hidding the releases/3rd-party path
[20:20] <daneoverton> hey everyone, i'm getting this error when trying to checkout:
[20:21] <daneoverton> bzr: ERROR: Unknown repository format: 'Bazaar repository format 2a (needs bzr 1.16 or later)\n'
[20:21] <jelmer> daneoverton, what version of bzr are you using?
[20:21] <mkanat> daneoverton: That sounds pretty clear to me.
[20:22] <daneoverton> yeah, i guess i need to update, but is there a command for that or do i need to download it
[20:22] <tsmith> does bzr-svn for cygwin exist?
[20:23] <jam> tsmith: not sure, though I would highly recommend avoiding cygwin
[20:23] <jam> (it is about 2-5x slower than native code)
[20:23] <jam> I personally run native bzr from a cygwin shell without any major problems
[20:24] <tsmith> bzr for win32 run in cygwin FREEZES for many seconds
[20:24] <tsmith> how many seconds? like 60-90
[20:24] <tsmith> sometimes 10 min
[20:24] <jam> hm...
[20:24] <jam> you could try Ctrl+Break and see what is going on
[20:24] <jam> if it is actually frozen
[20:24] <jam> I don't think I've experienced that
[20:24] <tsmith> it took bzr win32 FIFTEEN MINUTES to remove a simple lock
[20:25] <jam> 'to remove' ?
[20:25] <jam> do you mean 'bzr break-lock' or it was doing something that took 15min before the lock was done?
[20:26] <mkanat> daneoverton: You'll have to download it.
[20:26] <bialix> hello jam
[20:26] <tsmith> bzr break-lock on c:\ took 15 min
[20:26] <daneoverton> k, that's what i'm doing, thanks!
[20:27] <tsmith> when i did the exact same operation using cygwin bzr, it took less than a second
[20:28] <bialix> tsmith: there was a bug related to operations on drive root
[20:28] <tsmith> well it was in c:\www\projectname
[20:28] <bialix> do you have antivirus?
[20:28] <jam> tsmith: well, if cygwin gives you better experience, go for it. My personal experience has been significantly different
[20:29] <tsmith> yes
[20:30] <bialix> tsmith: I'm not sure how cygwin avoids crazy checks from antivirus, but that's it
[20:32] <bialix> tsmith: maybe you need to add bzr to list of "good" applications, or something like that
[20:53] <lifeless> win 38
[20:57] <Peng> \i/
[20:57] <Peng> \o/ I can't type today.
[20:57]  * bialix fears to ask what is 38
[20:58] <Peng> #launchpad-dev for me. :D
[20:58] <Peng> How topical!
[21:02] <mkanat> Peng: Maybe \i/ is a submarine as seen from behind.
[21:02] <mkanat> In a narrow channel.
[21:02] <lifeless> #drizzle
[21:02] <Peng> mkanat: OK, I'll go with that.
[22:48] <igc> morning
[22:49] <mwhudson> spiv: can you think of a way to get different lp-serve processes to log to different files?
[22:49] <mwhudson> spiv: i.e. not all jumbled up in ~/.bzr.log
[22:49] <mwhudson> ~/.bzr.log.$pid might work ok for us
[22:55] <spiv> mwhudson: yeah.  You can probably get roughly that by calling bzrlib.trace.push_log_file(...)
[22:56] <mwhudson> spiv: ok cool
[22:57] <spiv> mwhudson: or mv .bzr.log .bzr.log.$pid after the process starts ;)
[23:01] <bialix> hi igc
[23:02] <igc> bialix: hi!
[23:02] <spiv> mwhudson: It might not be crazy to add support for an environment var like BZR_LOG_PATH='~/.bzr.log.%(pid)s'
[23:02] <spiv> mwhudson: a cruder solution would be to change $BZR_HOME...
[23:03] <mwhudson> the bzrlib.trace approach is probably fine for us
[23:04] <bialix> spiv: what's wrong with BZR_LOG?
[23:04] <spiv> Oh, right, that already exists.  It doesn't have any room for parameterisation though.
[23:05] <spiv> bialix: mwhudson has many bzr processes running simultaneously, and would like them to have separate log files.
[23:05] <bialix> well, ues
[23:05] <bialix> understand
[23:07] <spiv> mwhudson: so all you need is to replace the 'bzr' executable with a wrapper that does "os.environ['BZR_LOG'] = 'bzr.log.%s' % os.getpid()" first ;)
[23:09] <spiv> mwhudson: another alternative would be to set it in the SSH daemon to bzr.log.$id(sock_object)
[23:11] <mwhudson> spiv: it would be nice to be able to map "process using megawads of ram" to the log file
[23:12] <spiv> mwhudson: trace.mutter('my PID is: %d', os.getpid())  ;)
[23:12] <spiv> mwhudson: but sure, push_log_file sounds like a pretty good answer.
[23:12]  * spiv hmms
[23:12] <mwhudson> spiv: feel free to put any of these ideas in a branch ;-)
[23:13] <spiv> mwhudson: it's a shame actually that Twisted's spawnProcess doesn't have a pre-exec hook.
[23:14] <spiv> mwhudson: because otherwise you could use that.  Well, you could monkeypatch os.execvpe, but that's not quite the same...
[23:14] <mwhudson> spiv: yes, i kinda wanted that for something else the other day too
[23:15] <spiv> mwhudson: did you file a ticket on Twisted trac for that, or shall I do that now?
[23:15] <mwhudson> spiv: i did not
[23:15]  * mwhudson lunches
[23:26] <bialix> igc: ping
[23:27] <igc> hi bialix
[23:27] <bialix> hi
[23:27] <spiv> mwhudson: twisted ticket #4159
[23:27] <bialix> some thoughts about your new suggestion feature for qpush
[23:27] <bialix> igc: when I've cloned branch from server, made changes, commit and then run qpush, it auto-suggests me parent location
[23:28] <bialix> igc: is it intended change in your patch or side effect?
[23:29] <igc> bialix: not intended
[23:29] <igc> bialix: I only suggested when the parent's parent was on LP so perhaps your subsequent tweak introduced that?
[23:30] <bialix> igc: but it is. I'm still not sure is it should be fixes
[23:30] <bialix> *fixed
[23:30]  * bialix checks
[23:35] <bialix> igc: it seems I found, return '' need to be de-indented
[23:39] <igc> bialix: I resolved that merge wrt qrun categories btw - just pushed new version
[23:40] <bialix> igc: thanks, I'll look and merge


[00:04]  * thumper afk for a bit
[08:23] <poolie> hi all
[08:24] <poolie> how do i run a single launchpad test?  i thought there was a test.py script
[08:26] <mwhudson> poolie: ./bin/test is that script now
[08:27] <poolie> that doesn't seem to exist
[08:29] <poolie> ah it's now a generated file
[08:29] <poolie> or maybe it has been for a long time
[08:31] <poolie> mwhudson, when I try to run make i get a complaint about missing download-cache
[08:31] <poolie> and when i run link-external-sourcecode, that complains the egg directory is missing
[08:31] <poolie> how do i fix that?
[08:32] <mwhudson> poolie: have you read ./utilities/rocketfuel-setup?
[08:32] <mwhudson> or even run it, if you're adventurous
[08:33] <poolie> i thought i had but perhaps not
[08:33] <poolie> i might try rocketfuel-update
[08:34] <mwhudson> well, if you don't have download-cache either you never set up this tree fully or it's a very long time since you last used it
[08:35] <poolie> ah ok
[08:35] <poolie> i have it in another branch
[08:35] <poolie> i guess if i'd used rocketfuel-branch or something it would have been copied?
[08:35] <mwhudson> oh you should be able to use link-external-sourcecode then
[08:36] <poolie> another question if i may
[08:36] <poolie> bzr-svn doesn't seem to be in launchpad-dependencies
[08:36] <mwhudson> maybe you need to give it an argument like ./utilities/link-external-sourcecode ../trunk
[08:36] <poolie> shouldn't it be?
[08:36] <poolie> oh ok
[08:36] <mwhudson> poolie: no, we use a branch of bzr-svn in sourcecode
[08:36] <mwhudson> we tend to use a newer version than anything packaged (or released, for that matter)
[08:36] <poolie> ok
[08:38] <poolie> ok, and now i have that directory, but i get 'no such file or directory' on an egg when i run make and it runs bootstrap.py
[08:38] <poolie> is there something else i need to run first?
[08:39] <mwhudson> not that i can think of
[08:39] <mwhudson> poolie: pastebin the error?
[08:39] <poolie> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/438700/
[08:40] <mwhudson> poolie: maybe bzr update download-cache?
[08:41] <poolie> ah, i didn't know that was a branch
[08:41] <mwhudson> yeah it is, for all that that isn't a very good idea
[08:55] <poolie> mwhudson, that seems to be running now, thanks
[09:02] <poolie> mwhudson, and is bzr-builder supposed to come from a branch too? i get an import error about that
[09:03] <mwhudson> poolie: ./utilities/update-sourcecode
[09:03] <poolie> k
[09:18] <poolie> jeez you wouldn't want to be in a hurry
[09:19] <poolie> spm, mwhudson, is this outage known
[09:50] <poolie> yay, my test fails
[09:50] <poolie> ok good night
[09:52] <lifeless> night
[11:03] <deryck> Morning, all.
[12:47] <wgrant> deryck: Why not have a root +filebug which just has a unified project/distro search widget and redirects to the right +filebug?
[12:47] <wgrant> That will redirect to the right Ubuntu wiki page, removes the widget complexity, and removes the bad Ubuntu default.
[12:47] <wgrant> And makes everyone happy.
[12:49] <deryck> wgrant, I suppose that's a better version of what was there before.  But is that really *that* much quicker than just searching for the project?
[12:52] <wgrant> deryck: You can't search for projects.
[12:53] <wgrant> At least without using the generic search widget on the top of another page.
[12:53] <wgrant> Yes, it would be awesome if everybody just landed on the project page.
[12:53] <wgrant> That's clearly how the current UI was designed.
[12:53] <wgrant> But it's not how things happen.
[12:53] <wgrant> And this sort of page would be generically useful, across several applications.
[12:54] <wgrant> (and the unified project/distro search widget itself even more widely applicable)
[12:56] <deryck> wgrant, then let's open a new bug about that suggestion.  The original bug was about one-click search.
[12:58] <wgrant> deryck: I do not see the difference. The workflow here is 1) Go to bugs.launchpad.net. 2) Click "Report a bug". 3) Enter search terms. 4) Click on match. This jumps into the workflow that is currently reached with 1) Go to launchpad.net/fooproject. 2) Click "Report a bug".
[12:59] <deryck> wgrant, ok, I thought you were saying something different.  I would not be in favor of that.  That isn't too far off what was there before.  People still have to know what project to file against, and if they don't, they will file against Ubuntu.
[13:00] <wgrant> deryck: Why would they file against Ubuntu?
[13:00] <wgrant> They did so before because it was the default.
[13:00] <wgrant> If you ignored the form, you got Ubuntu.
[13:01] <wgrant> With my design (based rather strongly on the design of the AJAX pickers), there is no default.
[13:01] <wgrant> And if somebody does enter Ubuntu, they will simply be redirected to the usual wiki page.
[13:04] <deryck> wgrant, ah, I see what you mean now.  I don't think technically we could do a text search like what's on the current dupe search across all bugs and not timeout 100% of the time.  But I'm fine to entertain the idea of the feature.
[13:04] <wgrant> deryck: The plan was not to do a dupe search at that stage.
[13:05] <wgrant> Users would select the project or distro, sending them to the normal +filebug for that target.
[13:05] <deryck> wgrant, so why is this any better than just searching from bugs.launchpad.net now?  because it has the semblance of a guided filebug workflow?
[13:05] <wgrant> deryck: You can't search from bugs.launchpad.net.
[13:05] <wgrant> And yes, a guided workflow is approximately an awful lot easier.
[13:06] <wgrant> If you don't provide guided workflows, you end up like Launchpad.
[13:06] <deryck> wgrant, you can't search?  there is a big "Search bug reports" form at the top of bugs.lp.net, no?
[13:07] <wgrant> deryck: The desired functionality is to search for *projects*, not bugs.
[13:07] <deryck> wgrant, are you personally planning to work on this?
[13:08] <wgrant> deryck: No.
[13:08] <wgrant> I'm just saying that Won't Fixing every bug about it is silly.
[13:08] <wgrant> Because it's a valid concern.
[13:08] <wgrant> And I've seen it confuse lots of users.
[13:09] <wgrant> And once the widely useful widget exists, this view is trivial.
[13:09] <deryck> wgrant, ok, first, you're being a bit too dramatic.  I haven't Won't Fix'ed *every* bug, I've marked one bug this way.
[13:09] <wgrant> deryck: There have been one or two before.
[13:10] <deryck> wgrant, that I have marked won't fix?
[13:12] <wgrant> Bug #162271 comes to mind.
[13:12] <mup> Bug #162271: search results page doesn't offer link to report a bug <ui> <Launchpad Bugs:Won't Fix> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/162271>
[13:13] <wgrant> And it comes up on IRC every so often.
[13:14] <deryck> wgrant, fine.  Update the bug with your suggestions and I'll mark it low.  You win.
[13:15] <wgrant> Since you seem to feel strongly that I am wrong, I shall not.
[13:17] <deryck> wgrant, I don't feel that your suggestion is bad.  I feel that this bug is not worth fixing.  I marked the bug as such, and you're challenging my call on that bug.  I can only mark the bug in front of me.  Had you opened a different bug making your suggestion, I doubt very seriously I would have marked it won't fix....
[13:17] <wgrant> Hmmmmm.
[13:18] <deryck> wgrant, and I'm saying now if you update the bug with your suggestions, I'll change my mind on the bug.
[13:18] <wgrant> "Not worth fixing": by that rationale, shouldn't most Low bugs need Won't Fxing?
[13:18] <wgrant> I understand Won't Fix as a policy decision that a change is inappropriate.
[13:18] <wgrant> That is how it tends to be used normally.
[13:18] <wgrant> Although not its original intention.
[13:19] <deryck> wgrant, so my language is not accurate.  I mean "should not be fixed."  by "worth," I only meant the fix suggested (i.e. renable reporting from the top-level) is not worth the pain it causes.
[13:20] <deryck> wgrant, I marked it won't fix because if someone submitted a patch to re-enable reporting from the top-level page, we would not accept it.
[13:21] <deryck> wgrant, and your alternate suggestion is fine, but it's a feature request, not a bug.  And trying to salvage the bug into a feature request is fair enough, and maybe that's why I used the phrase "not worth it" thinking about the whole spectrum of this bug to feature discussion.
[13:21] <wgrant> But not all solutions to that bug revive the Ubuntu issue. That was indeed a big issue, but it is easy to leave resolved.
[13:25] <deryck> wgrant, so why not propose an alternate solution in the bug report, rather than taking me to task from my call on this bug?
[13:27] <wgrant> deryck: I'd not intended to take you to task; I started by merely asking why other potential solutions were not considered. It seemed at the time to be a better idea to check before polluting a nice clean bug on which you had made a policy decision.
[13:32] <deryck> wgrant, if changing the status of a bug turns it from clean to dirty then we might as well quit reporting bugs.
[13:32] <deryck> or triaging them
[13:32] <deryck> or working on launchpad altogether
[13:34] <wgrant> deryck: I knew it was probably to end with the idea being crushed and the bug flipped back to Won't Fix. I imagined that a couple of lines of discussion here would remove the need for such useless operations. As can be seen, I was quite wrong.
[13:53]  * jml out to lunch
[17:45] <adiroiban> leonardr: hi. Do you know how could I debug the lazr.restful when the error  is  ComponentLookupError ? http://paste.ubuntu.com/438961/
[17:50] <leonardr> adiroiban: it looks like the web service is trying to serialize a field where the field object doesn't exist?
[17:50] <leonardr> as if you had put foo = exported(None) in your interface instead of eg. foo = exported(Text)
[17:50] <leonardr> does that make any sense?
[17:51] <leonardr> if i were you i'd catch the exception in _unmarshallField and see what field it is
[17:51] <adiroiban> leonardr: thanks. but is there a way for finding how which field can not be serialized?
[17:51] <leonardr> adiroiban -^
[17:51] <adiroiban> leonardr: thanks. so there is no other way of finding out which field is raising this error?
[17:52] <leonardr> adiroiban: ordinarily you would get a clue from the first part of the component lookup--that would be the field object
[17:52] <leonardr> but here the field object is None
[17:55] <adiroiban> thanks!
[18:13] <adiroiban> leonardr: it looks like the error was caused by an exported(List) field http://paste.ubuntu.com/438968/
[18:13] <adiroiban> Do you think it would make sense to have this patch http://paste.ubuntu.com/438969/ ?
[18:22] <leonardr> adiroiban: when publishing a list through the web service, you need to use Collection, not List
[18:22] <leonardr> let me find you an example
[18:22] <leonardr>     bugtasks = exported(
[18:22] <leonardr>         CollectionField(
[18:22] <leonardr>             title=_('BugTasks on this bug, sorted upstream, then '
[18:22] <leonardr>                     'ubuntu, then other distroseriess.'),
[18:22] <leonardr>             value_type=Reference(schema=IBugTask),
[18:22] <leonardr>             readonly=True),
[18:22] <leonardr>         exported_as='bug_tasks')
[18:22] <leonardr> from lib/lp/bugs/interfaces/bug.py
[18:22] <leonardr> lazr.restful.fields.CollectionField
[18:23] <leonardr> the semantics of a List field are undefined in the web service
[18:23] <leonardr> same thing for Object -- if you want to relate one object to another you need to use Reference
[18:24] <adiroiban> yes. and replace IChoice with IReferenceChoice ... but I was puzzled by that „None” field name
[18:25] <leonardr> i think lazr.restful may have been looking up a deserializer for the .schema
[18:25] <leonardr> since oyu didn't have a .schema that was None
[18:25] <adiroiban> and I was asking if you think that lazr.restfull could be improved and give a better error message
[18:25] <leonardr> sure it can
[18:25] <leonardr> ah, sorry
[18:25] <leonardr> i was looking at the wrong paste
[21:55] <mtaylor> thumper: hey, up yet?
[21:55] <thumper> mtaylor: hey
[21:55] <thumper> mtaylor: up but need some food
[21:56] <thumper> mtaylor: a somewhat frustrating morning
[21:56] <mtaylor> thumper: no prob... I'm here all day :)
[21:56] <mtaylor> oh, that's no good
[21:56] <mtaylor> you should eat! eating makes it better
[21:56]  * thumper nods
[21:56] <mtaylor> (so does coffee for me, but not everyone is as obsessed as I am)
[21:56]  * thumper goes to make some bacon and egg muffins with espresso
[21:57] <mtaylor> mmm
[22:17] <thumper> mtaylor: you've got me one handed for a few minutes while I eat
[22:17] <thumper> whazzup?
[22:18] <lifeless> nom nom nomification
[22:23] <mtaylor> thumper: so, an unnamed organization I know of is going to be hosting some open source development on launchpad
[22:23] <mtaylor> thumper: and amongst the things entailed in that process are going to be a CLA
[22:23] <thumper> mtaylor: ok
[22:23] <thumper> CLA?
[22:24] <mtaylor> contributor license agreement
[22:24] <mtaylor> which is one of those "need to sign this form before you can contribute" sorts of thing
[22:25]  * thumper nods
[22:25] <mtaylor> I was trying to figure out if/how that process could be integrated into launchpad
[22:25] <thumper> well, it is something we've been talking about in the past
[22:25] <mtaylor> which made me think of the (currently one-off hardcoded) ubuntu code of conduct
[22:25] <thumper> but I'm not entirely up with the play
[22:25] <thumper> ask sinzui
[22:25] <lifeless> o
[22:25] <lifeless> so
[22:25] <lifeless> lp has the CoC for Ubuntu
[22:26] <sinzui> mtaylor, CoC is a flatfile with a table mapping the version signed
[22:26] <lifeless> I *think* that a generalisation of that, to make multiple cocs available might be a reasonable thing
[22:26] <mtaylor> lifeless: that was the real question - I'm happy to write the code for that, if it's something that people might be interested in
[22:26] <lifeless> but I *don't know* if the concept of scaling to 1-per-project would be expected ;)
[22:27] <lifeless> sinzui: ^
[22:27] <lifeless> or even N per project, because Ubuntu related projects have several cocs to choose from
[22:27] <sinzui> mtaylor, The model classes assume that all CoC are Ubuntu. I considered adding a naming convention test to permit multiple CoCs for canonical projects.
[22:28] <lifeless> (oroginal, rev 2, leadership)
[22:28] <sinzui> mtaylor, I think we need a real DB class to manage file content and versions if we let any project have a CoC
[22:28] <mtaylor> sinzui: yes. I believe adding them as flat-files with mapping would be the wrong way
[22:28] <lifeless> sinzui: is there any reason, in principle, not to accept a patch that does that to your standard ?
[22:29] <lifeless> rephrasing:- Would a patch that generalises this and makes it editable via the web UI for all open source projects be accepted [if of appropriate quality]
[22:29] <sinzui> lifeless, mtaylor we would love patches to improve CoC to support more than Ubuntu
[22:29] <lifeless> mtaylor: there you go
[22:30] <mtaylor> sinzui: awesome! I will write up some thoughts on how I might go about that and see what you think
[22:30] <sinzui> thanks
[22:43] <mtaylor> sinzui: how soon would I need to have code reviewed and accepted for it to land in a running launchpad by early july?
[22:46] <sinzui> mtaylor, I think 2010-06-18
[22:46] <mtaylor> sinzui: thanks