[00:04] <SwissBot> feed xubuntu-docs had 10 updates, showing the latest 7
[00:04] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: flocculant's 2018 changes to contributor-docs @ http://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/commit/?id=394d9ad3dd280c6e6320f7c9b31538e4eda32a99 (by slickymaster)
[00:04] -SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: Fix previous commit. @ http://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/commit/?id=2d3772afc6c1a619000b108ebc56cd3fe975fecf (by Krytarik Raido)
[00:28] <Unit193> I still have libxfce4util-4.13.1 locally because of the introspection support. >_<
[00:56] <bluesabre> Unit193: I don't remember how hard we tried :)
[00:56] <Unit193> I *thought* there was some paper trail.
[00:56] <Unit193> Or progress.
[05:08] <flocculant> Unit193: thanks :)
[05:09] <Unit193> It still doesn't have the rest of the thunar plugins, but if you mention ones you use I can put them at the top of the list.
[05:10] <flocculant> I seem to have -archive and -media-tags
[05:11] <Unit193> Use them?
[05:11] <flocculant> not sure I use archive and the other one I'm not sure if that's doing the open with for media players or there wsa a patch for that
[05:12] <flocculant> pretty positive I don't use the archive one - but others do so I guess I should at least check it :p
[05:12] <flocculant> other thing I do - but not sure if because plugin or git thunar
[05:12] <flocculant> I *think* the latter
[17:57] <flocculant> logs are up now
[21:37] <Unit193> ...Well I'm smart.
[21:37] <knome> of course you are.
[21:38] <knome> smartest chap on the channel
[21:39] <Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/experimental/+sourcepub/9158112/+listing-archive-extra helps to build-depend on it too..
[22:07] <bluesabre> evening all
[22:07] <Unit193> thunar is packaged wrong.
[22:18] <bluesabre> :O
[22:20] <Unit193> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/373294088/thunar_1.7.2-1~18.10_1.7.2-1ppa1~18.10.diff.gz
[22:48] <ochosi> Unit193: still waiting for the panel and thunar-vcs-plugin in the experimental PPA ;)
[22:48] <Unit193> (https://salsa.debian.org/xfce-team/goodies/thunar-vcs-plugin/tree/debian/master/debian, https://salsa.debian.org/xfce-team/goodies/thunar-media-tags-plugin/tree/debian/master/debian, https://salsa.debian.org/xfce-team/goodies/thunar-archive-plugin/tree/debian/master/debian for the rest)
[22:48] <ochosi> oh, right then
[22:51] <Unit193> ochosi: Do you use that plguin?
[22:51] <ochosi> i do now, since i started helping to remove some deprecations
[22:52] <Unit193> ...Would you be able to test others? :)
[22:52] <ochosi> but not on a regular basis, i mostly use the cli for git
[22:52] <ochosi> others? you mean e.g. archive or media-tags?
[22:53] <Unit193> So far I have the gtkhash and dropbox ones up, but yes those will go too.
[22:54] <ochosi> sure, i can take all of them for a spin
[22:54] <ochosi> anything specifically you want tested or just that they "work"..?
[22:55] <ochosi> right now i have a bit of a frankensteinish setup with lots of components built from master on top of 17.10, i'll do clean installs for both 18.04 and 18.10 soon though
[23:00] <Unit193> Pretty must just functionality tests, yeah.
[23:00] <Unit193> There, for you I got the rest too. :P
[23:00] <ochosi> ok
[23:00] <ochosi> oh already?
[23:01] <ochosi> i'll have to test tomorrow or so
[23:01] <ochosi> gotta get some sleep
[23:01] <ochosi> and just fyi, i'll be afk until monday after tomorrow
[23:01] <ochosi> so if i don't make it tomorrow, you'll have to wait till next week..
[23:01] <ochosi> at least for me
[23:01] <ochosi> n8
[23:02] <Unit193> Good night.
[23:05] <Unit193> What happens if gdmflixiserver doesn't exist nor does dm-tool?  (https://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/commit/?id=19b14fe75720b4b2db54070af10042504edabe95)


[09:23] <jussi> Anyone care to speculate how the Jolla news affects Ubuntu phone. Do we think Mer apps will run nicely on ubuntu? How much adaption will they need?
[09:23] <AlanBell> jussi: what is the Jolla news, I missed that?
[09:24] <jussi> http://www.engadget.com/2012/07/07/jolla-promises-meego-will-live-on-plans-new-smartphone/
[09:24] <AlanBell> I am investigating getting boot to gecko running on my phone
[09:25] <jussi> I think we will see several bits and peices coming out of the ruins of Nokia
[09:29] <AlanBell> that looks pretty cool, HTML5 focussed like boot2gecko
[09:29] <AlanBell> it would be nice if that was kind of a third platform for developing stuff
[09:30] <AlanBell> iOS/Android Dalvic/HTML5
[09:30] <AlanBell> and actually the HTML5 stuff should work across all the phones
[09:30] <AlanBell> or have a decent chance of doing so
[10:16] <jussi> AlanBell: yup


[14:39] <cmaloney> morning
[14:40] <Zimdale> Morning
[14:45] <rick_h> party
[17:10] <cmaloney> are we having fun yet?
[17:10] <jrwren> YES
[17:11] <jrwren> I really want to write strtotime in go, but I'm afraid I'll hit a wall. What do you think I should do?
[17:12] <cmaloney> shell out to C? ;)
[17:12] <jrwren> I'd rather not.
[17:12] <cmaloney> use Python like a gentleman
[17:12] <notlikethesoup> python++
[17:13] <notlikethesoup> erm... python += 1
[17:13] <jrwren> so... I call strtotime from python, because python datetime parsing sucks.
[17:13] <jrwren> that is a wrapped C function because python calls C nicely.
[17:14] <cmaloney> Python Datetime parsing is pretty awesome
[17:14] <cmaloney> using dateutils
[17:14] <jrwren> terrible.
[17:14] <jrwren> j/k. i never used it because I had strtotime.
[17:14] <cmaloney> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-dateutil/2.6.1
[17:15] <cmaloney> I'd be afraid to write anything related to time because it's a clusterfuck of exceptions
[17:15] <cmaloney> and I'd wind up writing 0:60:01 or some shit
[17:15] <greg-g> I just was handed a smoothie with frozen peaches in it, so yeah, having fun now
[17:15] <jrwren> mmm... peaches.
[17:16] <jrwren> well, my job is all about video playback which is time based, so yeah... time and a clusterfuck of exceptions is my job now.
[17:16] <greg-g> yeah, the big flat of them we got from costco were good, but a few got soft spots before we could eat them, so, into the freezer they go!
[17:16] <jrwren> in what state were they grown?
[17:17] <greg-g> uhhhhh, dunno
[17:17] <cmaloney> jrwren: Fun times
[17:17] <greg-g> box is recycled (and pickup day was yesterday)
[17:17] <jrwren> greg-g: i'll pretend they are MI peaches ;P
[17:18] <greg-g> heh, thanks to ya'll then :P
[17:18] <jrwren> I don't see a way I can parse '1 day ago 2 hours ago' in dateutils :p
[17:19] <cmaloney> jrwren: datetime
[17:19] <cmaloney> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/6871016/adding-5-days-to-a-date-in-python
[17:19] <cmaloney> and timedelta
[17:20] <jrwren> cmaloney: no no no... I want it to work like gnu date cmd line.  e.g. `$ date -d ‘1 day ago 2 hours ago’`
[17:20] <jrwren> you can run that on linux (not on bsd/mac)
[17:20] <jrwren> err, well, those quotes aren't right, but if you fix them you can run it :)
[17:20] <cmaloney> try this:
[17:21] <cmaloney> exec("date -d '1 day ago 2 hours ago'") :-P
[17:22] <jrwren> bwahahahahahaha
[17:23] <jrwren> i would, but I am concerned aboud speed of http responses and so I will not fork.
[17:23] <cmaloney> https://golang.org/pkg/time/#Time.AddDate
[17:23] <jrwren> that doesn't help.
[17:23] <cmaloney> Use that to get the day one day before
[17:23] <jrwren> lets say I pass '1 day ago' as a query parameter, how do I get a date.
[17:24] <jrwren> right, you are saying to write my own parser. I'll take your advice.
[17:24] <cmaloney> Yeah, sadly I don't know why Go doesn't have a parser like that
[17:24] <jrwren> most langs don't.
[17:24] <jrwren> most call C strtotime :)
[17:25] <jrwren> although strangely ruby's fancy pants parser seems original
[17:25] <cmaloney> MOst of the time I'm not parsing a string for my "two days ago" foo. That's a config parameter
[17:26] <cmaloney> And if I need to get really fancy-pants I use https://docs.python.org/2/library/calendar.html
[17:26] <cmaloney> for stuff like first day of the week
[17:26] <jrwren> it must have just been teh nature of atlas apis when I was at arbor. the "days ago" queries were VERY useful.
[17:28] <cmaloney> https://dateparser.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
[17:29] <jrwren> oooh! that is the one.
[17:30] <jrwren> omg, those deps though
[17:31] <cmaloney> That's not too crazy. ;)
[17:31] <cmaloney> pytz six
[17:31] <cmaloney> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/ruamel.yaml <- this one I don't quite understand
[17:32] <cmaloney> nor the added regex lib
[17:32] <cmaloney> ah, for reading config files
[17:32] <jrwren> i don't see wehre it is supporting some of that syntax. https://github.com/scrapinghub/dateparser/blob/master/dateparser/parser.py
[17:32] <jrwren> oh... https://github.com/scrapinghub/dateparser/blob/master/dateparser/freshness_date_parser.py  there it is.
[17:33] <jrwren> well, i wasn't going to hand write the parser, but maybe I will.
[21:57] <jrwren> i just ran longer than I've ever run in my life. It was also the first run in my 40s
[21:57] <jrwren> Also the first run since my knee injury. I didn't even notice it, so I guess I laid off it too long
[22:29] <_stink__> jrwren++
[22:41] <rick_h> jrwren: <3 awesome
[22:51] <brousch> jrwren: You want date time stuff in Go?
[22:54] <jrwren> brousch: I want strtotime, yes.
[22:58] <brousch> I remember our Gonads at work talking about doing that
[22:58] <brousch> I assume that's what Go programmers are called
[22:59] <jrwren> gophers.
[22:59] <jrwren> brousch: have I told you how much I love go now? I like it a lot. :)
[23:35] <_stink__> brousch++


[05:02] <fograven> Hi all
[13:24] <dudstep9_> Hey, all. I was wondering on entering an entry for the 12.04 LTS countdown banner contest, but I can't seem to figure out how I can upload a submission to the submissions page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/PreciseCountdownBanner. Does anyone know how? Thank you in advance.
[13:31] <iainfarrell> hey dudstep9_ I think you have to host your images or attach them to the wiki page
[13:31] <iainfarrell> have you edited the wiki before?
[13:32] <dudstep9_> No, I haven't. And I'm pretty much clueless on how to. Sorry for being a newbie.
[13:33] <iainfarrell> No worries :)
[13:35] <iainfarrell> so do you have a login for launchpad first of all?
[13:38] <iainfarrell> dudstep9_: you'll need to start by making a launcpad.net user accounr
[13:38] <iainfarrell> *account
[13:39] <dudstep9_> I've created an account via the login via the login option at the top. I'm not quite sure if it is a launchpad account. i'll try that out too. :)
[13:40] <iainfarrell> ah ok
[13:40] <iainfarrell> no that'll be the same I think :)
[13:40] <iainfarrell> once you're signed in
[13:41] <iainfarrell> you'll see an edit link at the top of the page I think
[13:44] <dudstep9_> I've created an account. Let me try now.
[13:44] <iainfarrell> cool
[13:44] <iainfarrell> then it's wiki markup
[13:44] <iainfarrell> which is a whole other pain ;)
[13:51] <dudstep9_> The edit button continues to elude me. :)
[13:55] <iainfarrell> dudstep9_: ok let me have a look :)
[13:55] <iainfarrell> ahh
[13:55] <iainfarrell> the page has been locked
[13:55] <iainfarrell> see where it says immutable
[13:55] <iainfarrell> ?
[13:58] <iainfarrell> ahh hang on
[13:58] <iainfarrell> I've logged in and can edit it now
[13:58] <iainfarrell> it's a link top left
[13:58] <iainfarrell> under where it says Ubuntu wiki
[14:02] <dudstep9_> Strange. All I've got are  : Immutable Page   |  Info  |   Subscribe   |  Attachments    |   (a drop down list)  |   Logout  |   Help
[14:15] <iainfarrell> that is strange
[14:15] <iainfarrell> I may have more edit rights than you ...


[03:40] <theblazehen> Morning.
[03:41] <theblazehen> Maaz tell kilos raid doesn't do any more wear on drives than normal, except when you first create it, where it then writes over all the drives with \0's which caused disks to fail I think
[03:41] <Maaz> theblazehen: Got it, I'll tell Kilos on freenode
[03:42] <theblazehen> https://twitter.com/sadserver/status/686937954082672641 - "Never underestimate the disappointment of a station wagon full of corrupted backup tapes hurtling down the highway."
[05:15] <magespawn> good morning
[05:36] <magespawn> hi Kilos  urbanslug
[05:39] <Kilos> hi magespawn urbanslug theblazehen captine and others
[05:45] <magespawn> so what is up today Kilos?
[05:46] <Kilos> shivering for starters, and there?
[05:47] <Kilos> i found out one thing about thermal underwear, it keeps heat out
[05:47] <Kilos> sigh
[05:48] <magespawn> it keeps the cold out too
[05:48] <Kilos> nono
[05:48] <Kilos> im freezing
[05:49] <Kilos> dont have thermal gloves and sock and nose cover
[05:49] <Kilos> hehe
[06:02] <magespawn> the trick is to get warm first, then dress warm
[06:03] <Kilos> lol
[06:03] <Kilos> wb chesedo
[06:06] <anton_may> Kilos--drink more OBS ;)
[06:07] <Kilos> haha i remember that works well but i gave up drinking about 30 years ago
[06:08] <anton_may> I'm so sorry to hear that, then all I can suggest is lots of coffee
[06:19] <magespawn> and a big fire
[06:19] <magespawn> tea also works nicely
[06:27] <mazal> Morning everyone
[06:32] <inetpro> good mornings
[06:34] <mazal> Why is there no law against working early in winter :P
[06:42] <mazal> Does anybody know if sudo apt list --upgradeable will show kernel updates ? With update manager broken I update via cli and am just wondering if I will see kernel updates in that list
[07:39] <Kilos> i got lotsa outside work today so will be a bit quiet
[07:40] <Kilos> and connection probs again
[07:40] <Kilos> sigh
[07:50] <chesedo> morning all
[07:51] <paddatrapper> Morning chesedo
[09:08] <magespawn> just got my first gigabit internet experience
[09:20] <theblazehen> magespawn: Where?
[09:20]  * theblazehen has it on my VPS, but not actual PC
[09:20] <magespawn> from my new work, fibre isp
[09:22] <magespawn> the speestest maxs out at 250MB
[09:23] <magespawn> now i am limited by the speed of the port on my computer
[09:24] <anton_may> awesome and here i'm reconfiguring our office QoS because the boss is hogging the 10Meg fibre line
[09:37] <theblazehen> anton_may: What you running? FreeBSD / pfSense or something Linux based?
[09:40] <anton_may> mikrotik
[09:40] <anton_may> so yes Linux based
[09:52] <theblazehen> anton_may: nice. /me is using pfSense at home. I like that I cun run Squid on it
[09:53] <anton_may> ok kewl. Ia lso got a mikrotik at home, but it's only me and the missus, so no need for squid. Although Tik has a built in feature
[10:06] <pavlushka-> hello everyone!
[10:08] <Na3iL> hiyas pavlushka-
[10:09] <pavlushka-> how are you Na3iL
[10:10] <pavlushka-> i know a thing or two about you from Kilos, so what's up?
[10:10] <Na3iL> I am fine thanks :D what about you
[10:13] <pavlushka-> i am struggling with my life supply and net connection,  :p
[10:13] <Na3iL> hahaha I know that feel believe me
[10:15] <pavlushka-> can't afford the expensive mobile broadband  and my fixed broadband is down almost for a month and looking for a source of income too like a job, :p.
[10:17] <Na3iL> What kind of job you are looking for?
[10:19] <pavlushka-> chatting with you through an Android,  cant afford to connect it the pc, anykind iguess,  if you want to help, you should check out my resume in that case, but....
[10:20] <Na3iL> but what! :p
[10:20] <Na3iL> Ah, your resume is not online? for example an Linkedin profile will do the matter
[10:22] <pavlushka-> my eligibility is only recognizable locally,  have no international certification.  and yes i have a linkedin profile.
[10:24] <Na3iL> It's not a problem :D
[10:32] <pavlushka-> Na3I'll, my email in linkedin is<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[10:33] <pavlushka-> Na3iL,
[10:33] <Na3iL> okay I will check it 1sec
[10:38] <theblazehen> pavlushka-: Where are you located?
[11:01] <Na3iL> back, I am currently in Tunisia
[11:22] <theblazehen> pavlushka-: Not sure if you missed message, where are you located?
[12:48] <pavlushka-> theblazehen Bangladesh,  and i was fall a asleep, sorry
[12:48] <Squirm> Afternoon
[12:48] <pavlushka-> afternoon!
[12:49] <theblazehen> hey Squirm, pavlushka-
[12:49] <pavlushka-> hello cryterion!
[12:49] <theblazehen> That sucks, pity you aren't closer to here
[12:50] <pavlushka-> yeah, it sucks a little,  lol
[12:51] <pavlushka-> I might do online!
[12:52] <theblazehen> pavlushka-: How much do you like php?
[12:52] <pavlushka-> made up my mind to master it.
[12:54] <pavlushka-> a book is currently on my desk, and within weeks,  it will be on my head.
[12:54] <theblazehen> Cool. Can you mail your CV<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:55] <pavlushka-> sure, to the above address?
[12:55] <theblazehen> yeah
[12:57] <pavlushka-> theblazehen,  like to point out, that i have no international certification.
[12:57] <theblazehen> pavlushka-: yeah, that's alright. Hell, I don't even have local (yet)
[12:58] <pavlushka-> lol
[13:00] <pavlushka-> i gotta go right now but will mail it within in an hour, is that ok?
[13:01] <theblazehen> Yeah, cool, ty
[13:01] <pavlushka-> see ya... everyone!
[13:23] <magespawn> theblazehen: you looking for someone to do php?
[13:24] <theblazehen> magespawn: Yeah
[13:24] <magespawn> don't let superfly find out, we might get another python lecture
[13:25] <theblazehen> Oh, I know. I want someone so I don't have to :)
[13:25] <magespawn> hah
[14:29] <Kilos> hmm...
[15:37] <Kilos> theblazehen did you get a successful backup done?
[16:03] <magespawn> home time chat later
[16:15] <theblazehen> Kilos: Just got home now, with my new disks :)
[16:15] <Kilos> yay
[16:15] <Kilos> what make?
[16:15] <Kilos> hehe
[16:16] <theblazehen> Seagate.. But I think I just had a bad batch. 1 TB disk, only R500 / drive
[16:16] <Kilos> another 10k?
[16:16] <theblazehen> And RAID 6 this time
[16:16] <theblazehen> Nah, just R2500 :)
[16:16] <Kilos> 500 for 1TB
[16:17] <theblazehen> But only 3 TB total in the end, vs 15 TB before :(
[16:17] <Kilos> thats cheap
[16:17] <theblazehen> Yeah, cheap. Got it from a guy at work, cost price
[16:17] <Kilos> great
[16:17] <theblazehen> And he has more if these die :) He might get me sorted with a new processor for cheap too
[16:18] <Kilos> wonderful
[16:18] <Kilos> have you checked your psu
[16:18] <Kilos> some way you can get info on all voltages etc
[16:19] <Kilos> somewhere in bios i think
[16:21] <theblazehen> Yeah. All good there
[16:21] <theblazehen> Think I have a 750W, not even running a gpu. Way more than enough power
[16:22] <Kilos> i was thinking maybe overvoltage
[16:22] <Kilos> some psu regulator not right
[16:23] <theblazehen> Was around 12.05 V or so
[16:23] <theblazehen> Almost perfect
[16:23] <Kilos> yeah
[16:23] <theblazehen> And ssd doesn't have any issues
[16:24] <Kilos> im just looking for other possible cause of so many disk failures
[16:28] <theblazehen> Yeah
[16:36] <paddatrapper> theblazehen: you had me excited there about cheap drives...
[16:38] <theblazehen> paddatrapper: where you at? How many do you want?
[16:40] <paddatrapper> theblazehen: 4/5, CT
[16:40] <theblazehen> Hmm. How much do you think shipping from JHB would be?
[16:41] <Kilos> lol
[16:41] <Kilos> look for someone thats travelling
[16:42] <paddatrapper> My brother and father will be up there 2 - 8 July. Maybe can organise something with them
[16:42] <Kilos> couriers are expensive
[16:44] <paddatrapper> While family and friends are free :D
[16:44] <Kilos> yeah
[16:44] <Kilos> hehe
[16:48] <theblazehen> paddatrapper: He has 4 disks left
[16:49] <theblazehen> paddatrapper: Note, they all have a couple days of use on them, not brand new
[16:52] <paddatrapper> theblazehen: That's fine, I'd be using them for a server at home which is in desperate need of more space. I just need to see if I can organise (mainly re family going up) and let you know
[16:56] <theblazehen> paddatrapper: Cool
[17:52] <Kilos> hi pavlushka
[17:52] <pavlushka> Hello , Kilos ! missed you,
[17:53] <Kilos> you well lad
[17:59] <pavlushka> Almost Kilos , :p
[17:59] <Kilos> hmm...  almost
[18:34] <magespawn> good evening
[18:35] <theblazehen> hi magespawn
[18:39] <Kilos> hi magespawn inetpro
[18:55] <magespawn> so whats up folks?
[18:57] <Kilos> why you work so late
[18:57] <Kilos> crazy hours for an IT guy
[18:58] <magespawn> not at work now, been at home for the last 2 hours or so
[18:59] <Kilos> yes man you said home time at 6 pm
[19:00] <magespawn> yup
[19:00] <magespawn> takes about a hour normally to get home
[19:00] <Kilos> yes but
[19:00] <magespawn> longer tonight because of traffic
[19:01] <Kilos> IT guys go home at 4 pm
[19:01] <magespawn> not when they are on support, normal hours are until 5 pm
[19:01] <Kilos> oh
[19:01] <magespawn> support until 6pm
[19:01] <Kilos> how are you coping
[19:02] <magespawn> all good so far
[19:02] <Kilos> enjoying the change?
[19:02] <magespawn> yes, going to try and finda place closer to work
[19:03] <Kilos> and the cold?
[19:03] <magespawn> i get to wear longs all the time
[19:03] <Kilos> lol
[19:05] <Kilos> well no one else wants to talk to us so maybe i must sleep then all the lurkers can come outa hiding
[19:06] <magespawn> you scare them away,they don't want to get in trouble
[19:06] <Kilos> thats why i must sleep early otherwise they stay up too late
[19:06] <Kilos> hehe
[19:08] <Kilos> and i never fight with anyone
[19:09] <Kilos> night all. sleep tight
[19:09] <theblazehen> night Kilos
[19:09] <magespawn> good night Kilos
[19:14] <magespawn> i am also off,good night all
[19:15] <theblazehen> night magespawn
[20:26] <inetpro> ah, I can come out now?
[20:29] <inetpro> maybe not
[20:29] <inetpro> good night
[20:33] <pavlushka> inetpro: good night, :p


[02:32] <DarkTrick> Under "Keyboard"->Application shortcuts you can define shortcuts to open applications. Is there a way to append the current content of the clipbard to the command?
[02:32] <DarkTrick> I'd like to have a shortcut for `firefox --search %c`, where %c would be clipboard content
[02:32] <DarkTrick> or even better: instead of clipboard, pass the currently selected text
[16:45] <cristobalgh> hi
[16:46] <cristobalgh> could someone plz help me? I have a thinkpad t490, with thunderbolt dock. Just a few days ago when I unplugged it from the dock it went to sleep, that perfect. Now it doesnt... only change I've made was enabling lock screen and installing light-lock
[16:47] <cristobalgh> now it doesnt suspend after undocking, have to do it manually...
[16:47] <cristobalgh> thanks!!!


[16:36] <greg-g> anyone here know nicholas skaggs? former Canonical person now at WMF
[16:36] <jrwren> I'm sure rick_h knows him. I barely remember him from when I worked there.
[16:36] <greg-g> he's our new Eng Manager for the Cloud Services team
[16:46] <rick_h> greg-g:  yes, Nicholas is great and I wish he would come back
[16:46] <rick_h> tell him I said hello!
[16:48] <greg-g> hah!
[16:51] <jrwren> what was he doing at canonical 4-6yrs ago?
[16:55] <rick_h> he came over to my side running the juju qa team
[16:55] <rick_h> and then when they folded that into engineering because a manager of that for a bit
[16:55] <rick_h> before that he was on desktop-y stuff?
[16:55] <rick_h> it was another "side" I didn't run across much
[17:04] <cmaloney> I recognize the name
[17:06] <rick_h> yea, I think he was on the community team that jorge was on at one point
[17:06] <rick_h> he wasn't buried in the org for sure
[17:22] <cmaloney> yeah
[17:26] <cmaloney> Speaking of Jorge, I'm listening to Robert Trujillo in INfectious Grooves.
[17:35] <cmaloney> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRdRqlZiTD8
[17:36] <cmaloney> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob3buKk6ALc
[18:09] <mrgoodcat> greg-g: sorry if this isn't the right plact to ask things like this but i'm on a w3c working group who's charter is in danger of not being repassed. any chance i could get you to reach out to the wmf advisory committe rep to look over the distributed tracing wg charter and possibly vote?
[18:44] <greg-g> mrgoodcat: passed it along :)
[18:44] <mrgoodcat> cool thank you :)
[18:46] <mrgoodcat> should probably have included in the original message but here's a direct link if it makes it easier https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/dt-2020/


[01:13] <kmoss> Hi, everyone.  I'm wondering which desktop environment is best to use for minimizing mouse usage.  Basically, I have decided the mouse is evil, ever since I got a wrist injury.  So I'm looking for good suggestions.
[01:17] <daftykins> perhaps you should try a trackball first
[01:18] <kmoss> I hate those things
[01:18] <tsimonq2> kmoss: i3 is the best I've seen
[01:19] <daftykins> me too, but i had a client who switched after some injury
[01:19] <kmoss> tsimonq2: never even heard of that one, any particular advantages to it?
[01:19] <Bashing-om> kmoss: I like xfce .
[01:19] <daftykins> anything can be keyboard if you learn it well enough
[01:20] <tsimonq2> kmoss: it's basically very keyboard-oriented
[01:20] <tsimonq2> i3 window manager
[01:20] <tsimonq2> https://www.linux.com/learn/how-use-super-fast-i3-tiling-window-manager-linux%20 and http://i3wm.org/ might help
[01:42] <JanC> the default unity is pretty good with a keyboard...
[01:43] <daftykins> most let you alt+F2 -> program -> enter
[02:29] <LambdaComplex> kmoss: i3 or bspwm
[02:29] <LambdaComplex> or possibly hlwm
[02:34] <kmoss> So far I'm watching the videos on i3, I'm loving what I see so far.
[02:34] <kmoss> anyone know if you can make the terminal windows/vi/emacs transparent in i3?
[02:34] <LambdaComplex> probably, if you have a compositor (like compton) running
[11:39] <lotuspsychje> good afternoon to all
[11:39] <lotuspsychje> ducasse: did judy come back yet?
[11:40] <ducasse> lotuspsychje: not that i've seen, but i'm only halfway paying attention :)
[11:41] <lotuspsychje> kk :p
[11:43] <lotuspsychje> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/05/ubuntu-16-04-proves-even-an-lts-release-can-live-at-linuxs-bleeding-edge/
[11:43] <lotuspsychje> nice article here, also mentions zfs only for servers as you said ducasse
[11:47] <ducasse> thanks, i'll have a look.
[12:00] <BluesKaj> Hiyas all
[12:00] <lotuspsychje> hey BluesKaj
[12:01] <BluesKaj> hey lotuspsychje
[12:12] <pauljw> Hi everyone
[12:13] <BluesKaj> hi pauljw
[12:14] <pauljw> hey BluesKaj
[12:15] <lotuspsychje> hi pauljw
[12:15] <lotuspsychje> welcome akik
[12:15] <pauljw> hi lotuspsychje
[12:19] <lotuspsychje> http://www.zdnet.com/article/the-linux-in-your-car-movement-gains-momentum/#ftag=RSSbaffb68
[12:19] <lotuspsychje> fasten your seatbelts lol
[12:22] <pauljw> :)
[12:42] <EriC^^> hi lotuspsychje
[12:42] <lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
[12:43] <OerHeks> i am back :-)
[12:43] <lotuspsychje> wb OerHeks
[12:44] <lotuspsychje> OerHeks: LP fixxed?
[12:44] <OerHeks> lotuspsychje, almost all sites indeed!
[12:44] <lotuspsychje> great
[12:44] <OerHeks> you wicked fixer!
[12:44] <lotuspsychje> lol
[12:45] <BluesKaj> hey OerHeks
[12:46] <OerHeks> hi BluesKaj
[12:46] <OerHeks> not sure what went wrong, or how it got reset
[12:47] <lotuspsychje> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel-driver-change&num=1
[12:47] <OerHeks> all i know is that my yubikey is now EOL, and i use an other OTP now.
[12:47] <lotuspsychje> OerHeks: your back that matters :p
[12:48] <OerHeks> you are my favorite resetter, grinn
[12:48] <lotuspsychje> hehe
[12:53] <BluesKaj> hope it doesn't need pulseaudio for flash/web audio linkage to alsa like other audio drivers do
[12:53] <lotuspsychje> alot of stuff changing
[12:53] <lotuspsychje> driverwise
[12:54] <BluesKaj> platform agnostic code sounds workable tho ....I think
[12:55] <lotuspsychje> nice article, posted earlier: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/05/ubuntu-16-04-proves-even-an-lts-release-can-live-at-linuxs-bleeding-edge/
[12:55] <lotuspsychje> explaining the snap part well
[13:35] <lotuspsychje_> oO
[14:34] <lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/ubuntu-touch-ota-11-delayed-by-a-week-work-on-ota-12-should-start-soon-503970.shtml
[14:47] <lotuspsychje> \9: welcome
[14:47] <\9> hi
[14:47] <dbz2k> hi
[14:47] <lotuspsychje> \9: we share some ubuntu articles and recent news here, to be able to help best in main
[14:48] <lotuspsychje> dbz2k: hello
[14:48] <\9> ah, cool
[14:49] <OerHeks> some new users help old users, anything can happen here
[14:49] <OerHeks> !coffee
[14:50] <lotuspsychje> cheers OerHeks
[14:51] <lotuspsychje> http://www.datamation.com/open-source/how-long-will-desktop-linux-last.html
[14:51] <lotuspsychje> another lame article that says linux will vanish lol
[14:54] <\9> I've only seen linux desktop grow, there's new desktops in an IT class in our uni and they all run Kubuntu
[14:55] <\9> or at least KDE. I think it's Kubuntu
[14:55] <lotuspsychje> \9: we found an article yesterday, italian military dropped ms office for libreoffice, saves them 26 million euros..
[14:55] <lotuspsychje> \9: nice1
[14:55] <\9> yeah I've never understood how MS office has a market when there's a free alternative
[14:56] <tgm4883> \9: because it costs money to switch
[14:57] <tgm4883> \9: because by the time people reach working age they've already been taught office (which bring s it back to point #1)
[14:57] <\9> ah, right
[14:57] <lotuspsychje> well if you can save 26 million, i think you can handle the converting price aswell :p
[14:57] <Hesulan> I can't remember where, but the other day I read a good article that pretty much summed up Linux on desktops. IIRC, it said something along the lines of: Since those of us who develop Linux do so primarily for their own use rather than as a product to sell to a consumer, we don't really care if *everyone* uses it - only that *we* are able to. Having more end-users only provides indirect benefit to us through
[14:57] <Hesulan> bug reports, etc. So it's never been a huge priority.
[14:58] <tgm4883> lotuspsychje: how many employees?
[14:58] <lotuspsychje> tgm4883: not sure, lemme refind the url
[14:58] <lotuspsychje> tgm4883: http://news.softpedia.com/news/italian-military-to-save-up-to-29-million-euro-by-migrating-to-libreoffice-503945.shtml
[14:58] <\9> yeah Linux desktop has always been a niche and likely always will be
[14:58] <\9> nothing wrong with that IMO
[14:59] <tgm4883> so 100,000
[14:59] <tgm4883> somethings not quite right with that math
[15:00] <tgm4883> office doesn't cost 260/user
[15:01] <lotuspsychje> depends wich office?
[15:02] <lotuspsychje> i know a person got ripped off from a pc store for 500$ for MS office full package
[15:02] <tgm4883> lotuspsychje: no, it really doesn't. You get huge discounts for buying 100,000 seats
[15:02] <lotuspsychje> true
[15:02] <tgm4883> hell, you get huge discounts buying 1,000 seats
[15:03] <lotuspsychje> but we dont know the full story perhaps from the military
[15:03] <lotuspsychje> anyway a lot of .gov and big companys have moved to linux
[15:03] <lotuspsychje> its a good thing
[15:03] <tgm4883> oh I agree, it's a good thing
[15:04] <tgm4883> I just find some of the numbers a bit, interesting
[15:04] <lotuspsychje> yeah lol
[15:04] <lotuspsychje> perhaps some of the ammount $$$ will fall off the boat somewhere
[15:52] <lotuspsychje> wb BluesKaj
[15:53] <BluesKaj> thanks lotuspsychje ,installed kodi, but it crashes after a few mins
[15:54] <lotuspsychje> oh
[15:54] <BluesKaj> freezes everything
[15:55] <BluesKaj> not running the nvidia driver due to a kernel module error with it.
[15:59] <daftykins> mmm Kodi will most likely not run on nouveau
[15:59] <daftykins> it needs proper OpenGL acceleration
[15:59] <lotuspsychje> ah
[15:59] <lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: cant you load another driver?
[16:00] <daftykins> older version number or something?
[16:01] <lotuspsychje> sudo ubuntu-drivers list
[16:02] <BluesKaj> daftykins:  I tried the driver with both 3.1 and 2.0 opengl , but it was a mess . flickering , crashing wallpapaer below the panel etc
[16:02] <daftykins> is that on a 16.04 install? what's the card?
[16:02] <lotuspsychje> and driver version?
[16:02] <BluesKaj> nvidia-340 is a problem on yakkety
[16:03] <lotuspsychje> ah your on 16.10?
[16:03] <BluesKaj> nouveau works well with xrender most of the time
[16:03] <OerHeks> BluesKaj, missing linux-headers-generic ??
[16:04] <lotuspsychje> i think stuff wil get fixxed when yakkety moves to 4.6 kernel also
[16:04] <lotuspsychje> dax: did you see ducasse 's sugestion for zfs?
[16:05] <BluesKaj> OerHeks:  headers are installed
[16:05] <OerHeks> :-(
[16:05] <dax> lotuspsychje: zfs stuff is probably best off going to another op, i don't know anything about it or support it :c
[16:05] <lotuspsychje> dax: ok thank you, can you talk about it in ops perhaps?
[16:06] <lotuspsychje> dax: also EriC^^ mentioned the ubottu bug still open for abuse
[16:06] <dax> do a factoid suggestion (/msg ubottu !no, zfs is <reply> factoid text goes here) and see if someone else from -ops pops up
[16:06] <dax> bug thing is a Pici thing
[16:07] <lotuspsychje> ducasse: for you ^
[16:08] <ducasse> ok, i'll do it rsn.
[16:08] <lotuspsychje> EriC^^: highlight pici for the echo ubottu bug :p
[16:08] <EriC^^> ok :p
[16:15] <ducasse> lotuspsychje: zfs suggestion is sent.
[16:16] <lotuspsychje> ducasse: great
[16:57] <lotuspsychje> evening baizon
[17:13] <lotuspsychje> bbl guys dinner
[20:43] <DaniKitten> Hi
[20:43] <DaniKitten> I found a way for still using Ubuntu on my slow netbook: using almost only true CLI
[21:03] <daftykins> *facepalm*
[21:06] <Bashing-om> daftykins: Beats head {DaniKitten} on desk .... hard .
[21:06] <daftykins> :)
[21:06] <daftykins> Bashing-om: only in the most pleasant and polite way!
[21:08] <Bashing-om> Yeah, otherwise - we become the guilty . I have a soft conscious .


[01:11]  * InHisName is now back reading, you'all type away, now.
[01:56] <IdleOne> away
[02:12] <InHisName> Thank You very much, IdleOne, for following directions EXPLICITLY.


[21:20] <bluegrue>  /msg nickserv identify waliays
[21:22] <hermanr> bluegrue: Uh-oh
[23:12] <airlynx> where is the ubuntu studio release schedule located?
[23:13] <holstein> airlynx: its the same as ubuntu
[23:14] <holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
[23:14] <airlynx> holstein, I was just about to upgrade my 10.04 system to 11.10 but noticed on Ubuntu's release schedule 12.04 is slated for Apr 26th, should I just wait?
[23:14] <holstein> you can check in #ubuntustudio-devel for specific fixes that might be happening on our end at certain times
[23:14] <holstein> airlynx: you can try it live now
[23:15] <holstein> airlynx: i would have no issues using 12.04 now
[23:15] <holstein> though, i would just wait instead of running 11.10
[23:15] <holstein> however, all of it will work just fine
[23:19] <airlynx> okay, I found the page for the daily build on 12.04, I could just download/install that then keep up to date, right?


[00:28] <xnox> penguin42: 12.04.2 still ships unity-2d (for non-accel) and unity-3d
[00:28] <xnox> penguin42: unless you are not asking about llvm-pipe, then ignore me.
[00:30] <penguin42> xnox: Well what I was curious about was whether it included llvm-pipe and if it did whether unity-3d would try and work
[00:34] <xnox> penguin42: no. unity was not part of the backport.
[00:37] <penguin42> xnox: Well it wasn't unity I asked about; it was llvm-pipe - and I'm not sure where that sits, but it ain't unity
[00:37] <xnox> penguin42: llvmpipe backend for unity is not part of the backport and that does need new unity.
[00:38] <penguin42> ok
[08:13] <dwatkins> morning all
[08:13]  * dwatkins saw the sun rise on the way to work today, which made it feel less like it's winter
[08:22] <knightwise> whaw
[08:23] <knightwise> looks like the real deal with that meterorite in russia
[08:52] <kvarley> I've already installed steam manually via a deb, will it mess anything up if I just install it from the software centre too?
[09:00] <popey> nah
[09:00] <popey> YMMV ☺
[09:01] <popey> I wouldn't bother
[09:01] <popey> Steam self-updates
[09:02] <kvarley> popey: I was more thinking for Canonical's stats :) but I guess Valve has stats on linux users anyway
[09:02] <popey> heh
[09:02] <popey> i dont think it will make much difference
[09:03] <kvarley> This year has got off to an amazing start
[09:03] <popey> yes, yes it has
[09:03] <popey> we've gone from 25 games in steam back in november to 100
[09:04] <kvarley> The publicity surrounding Valve's Piston project is great for Linux too
[09:04] <kvarley> I'm still amazed by the selection of games available in such a short amount of time
[09:05] <knightwise> Counter strike source ! :)
[09:05] <knightwise> Heeehee !
[09:06] <kvarley> knightwise: Yeah, that is an awesome game. If/When CS:GO comes I'll finally be able to convince a few more of my friends to switch
[09:10] <knightwise> got a laptop from work this week
[09:11] <knightwise> 15 inch clunker with an ATI card
[09:11] <knightwise> dualbooted it into linux :)
[09:11] <knightwise> will be using it as my game machine for the occasional alien arena and steam :)
[09:14] <jacobw> morning
[09:14] <jacobw> knightwise: steam \o/
[09:18] <andylockran> morning all
[09:19] <knightwise> Steam in russia is featuring a new game  http://www.classicgamesarcade.com/game/21650/missile-strike.html
[09:28] <kvarley> lol
[09:31] <JamesTait> Happy Friday, everyone! :-D
[09:31] <Laney> it IS happy
[09:32]  * Laney plays a guitar riff in celebration
[09:33] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:33] <JamesTait> Woke up this morning (duh-duh-duh-duh-duh), thought it was Saturday.
[09:33] <czajkowski> aloha
[09:33] <JamesTait> brobostigon, czajkowski: o/
[09:34] <brobostigon> morning JamesTait
[09:35] <knightwise> Its not only the end of the week .. in russia its like the end of the world !
[09:36] <andylockran> is there a tool for adding custom resolutions to monitors?
[09:37]  * dwatkins is reminded of the days of manually editing the XFree86 config file
[09:42] <zleap> hi ,   how do i switch to vga output,  tried google and nothing seems helpful
[09:42] <zleap> using del 1ov,  vga connected up
[09:44] <AlanBell> morning all
[09:45] <andylockran> I've just had to use xrandr to set resolution on an external monitor :s
[09:45] <andylockran> morning AlanBell
[09:45] <AlanBell> I have an idea for an email service thing, not sure if it exists
[09:45] <popey> zleap: what are you running on it?
[09:45] <popey> andylockran: yeah, I've used xrandr for adding resolutions before, never found a tool for it
[09:45] <AlanBell> what I want is a website where I can get an inbound email address that I can send assorted automated emails
[09:46] <zleap> lubuntu 12.04
[09:46] <popey> no idea, ask in #lubuntu ?
[09:46] <zleap> ok
[09:46] <AlanBell> I tell it what emails to expect, and what words to look out for in them, like "at 2 AM every day you should expect an email from this address with the subject containing 'Success'"
[09:46] <popey> nice idea AlanBell
[09:46] <popey> it could report for you when it doesn't get them too
[09:47] <zleap> what would i use in standard ubuntu?
[09:47] <AlanBell> and then if it doesn't get them it sends me a mail
[09:47] <popey> zleap: there is a displays option in system settings
[09:47] <AlanBell> then I don't have to care about backup emails not happening, or failing or cronjobs or whatever
[09:47] <AlanBell> I only need to care if they don't turn up or fail
[09:48] <AlanBell> does such a thing exist? Could I make squillions by building it?
[09:49] <popey> it could be a valuable service, yes
[09:49] <popey> subscription based, people would subscribe and then forget it
[09:49] <popey> but continue paying
[09:50] <andylockran> #storyofmybankaccount
[09:50] <AlanBell> yeah, I would pay for it I think
[09:50] <AlanBell> and I would want it as SaaS rather than in house probably
[09:50] <AlanBell> so it isn't dependent on the infrastructure it is monitoring
[09:50] <popey> yes
[10:10] <diplo_> Morning all
[10:12] <diplo> AlanBell: Isn't that the sort of thing that Monitoring services like Nagios do though, check backups or you could use to check an email was sent etc
[10:13] <AlanBell> diplo: dunno, I want to check that an email *wasn't* sent
[10:14] <AlanBell> or the expected email was received but the last word in the body isn't "Done"
[10:17] <DJones> Has anybody here installed LibreOffice 4 on 12.04 yet, if so, did you use a ppas or manually install it
[10:18] <diplo> Could check the logs to see if an email was sent to a particular host at a certain timee
[10:24] <AlanBell> diplo: I don't want to, I want to do less work not more!
[10:25] <AlanBell> so I have from various systems emails that I expect to get every day, I can send them to different mailboxes and check 30 or so emails a day to see if any failed, or if any didn't arrive
[10:26] <AlanBell> but I am horrifically lazy, and don't want to do that
[10:26] <AlanBell> I want a computer to tell me if I didn't get one of 30 emails
[10:26] <AlanBell> and not to bother me about the 29 successfull things I don't have to care about
[10:40] <daubers> AlanBell: Sounds like you need nagios or something really. Quick flick in the morning to see if you have any red lights then ignore
[10:40] <AlanBell> daubers: can that get emails from systems it can't see other ways?
[10:40] <jpds> "If you're not monitoring it, you're not managing it".
[10:41] <daubers> AlanBell: I think it's all scrpt based, so probably
[10:45] <popey> for czajkowski http://imgur.com/gallery/Fz7h1Ni
[10:45] <popey> AlanBell: you can write scripts to do pretty much anything
[10:45] <popey> i wrote a nagios script to poll SAP systems and give me lights if stuff was on/off
[10:46] <AlanBell> I guess one could write a nagios script to log in to an imap account and search for emails
[10:47] <czajkowski> popey: awwww
[10:57] <diplo> AlanBell: More than likely there is a script already there, if not there ( from my experience ) will be something very similar that you can slightly change to your needs
[10:58] <diplo> I don't think I've not found something that can do something I want and needing to start from scratch
[10:58] <diplo> Even a script to check Fibre cards and whether they have an errors / problems
[10:59] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:59] <AlanBell> diplo: yeah, I think it is something I could set up, and I do have nagios running, however I suspect it could be a useful service to simplify
[11:01] <AlanBell> normal people get regular emails too, from various things
[11:01] <AlanBell> people who are not going to run nagios
[11:19] <davmor2> bigcalm: we'll wont a full report on your unity experience
[11:21] <popey> +1
[11:46] <andylockran> normal people DO run nagios
[11:46] <andylockran> it's innormal people that don't
[11:48] <BigRedS> I thought normal people ran icinga these days?
[11:50] <mungbean_> is tomboy/u1 still deleting all notes?
[11:51] <mungbean_> aararghghgh uploaded 210 notes to server
[11:52] <mungbean_> sounds like notes were not on server then
[11:53] <davmor2> andylockran: is innormal even a word?
[11:54] <popey> mungbean_: https://one.ubuntu.com/help/contact/ ?
[11:55] <mungbean_> popey: i just held off from syncing for a week after initial epic fail of note deletion
[11:55] <mungbean_> wondered if there was a consensus on what had happened and it was fixed
[11:56] <mungbean_> my understanding was every user suffered
[11:56] <Laney> #ubuntuone is likely better
[12:00] <popey> i had it happen once, restored my notes from backup, synced again
[12:00] <popey> then decided to drop tomboy completely
[12:01] <popey> so exported my notes as plain text, deleted them and removed tomboy
[12:04] <bitnumus> Hi, im trying to install ubuntu-server, the installation failed at loading the CD-ROM stage, any way to find out why?
[12:06] <popey> bitnumus: probably best asking in #ubuntu-server
[12:06] <bitnumus> ok.
[12:39] <davmor2> popey: have a look at nitro it's a task manager really but makes just as good a note keeper :)
[12:46] <rindolf> Hi all.
[12:49] <davmor2> rindolf: hello
[12:50] <rindolf> davmor2: what's up?
[12:50] <davmor2> rindolf: the Ceiling, the tree tops, the Sky :)
[12:51] <rindolf> davmor2: http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=shlomif-fact-chuck-35
[12:55] <AlanBell> andylockran: normal sysadmins run nagios
[12:56] <rindolf> davmor2: I am a stand-in Chuck Norris on IRC, so beware my IRC wrath.
[12:56]  * rindolf unleashes his inner Chuck Norris.
[12:56]  * AlanBell sets up http://exceptionalemails.com/ and ponders how to build it
[12:57] <rindolf> AlanBell: ah, Nagios. Had a gig regarding it recently, but it was unsuccesful
[12:57] <rindolf> Our client was in denial of Brooks' Law and common sense.
[12:57] <rindolf> Brooks's maybe.
[13:00] <AlanBell> a common problem
[13:00] <AlanBell> however I am fairly sure that I don't want nagios for this
[13:02] <davmor2> rindolf: I don't know which was funnier the quote or you thinking you are to irc what chuck norris is to the world.  We know who the real IRC ninjas are :D
[13:02] <rindolf> davmor2: I was kidding.
[13:02] <rindolf> davmor2: I am just being silly.
[13:02] <rindolf> davmor2: anyway what's new with you?
[13:02] <davmor2> rindolf: hence the :D at the end :)
[13:03] <rindolf> davmor2: and/or what are you doing now?
[13:03] <rindolf> davmor2: actually I am an IRC master ninja.
[13:03] <rindolf> A ninja god.
[13:03] <dwatkins> a ginger nod.
[13:03] <davmor2> rindolf: Work, and boring admin stuff currently :)
[13:04] <rindolf> davmor2: ah, OK.
[13:11] <neuro> AlanBell: sorry, just read back
[13:11] <neuro> basing a monitoring solution around emails, and specifically email delivery, is a dangerous thing
[13:11] <neuro> too many PoFs
[13:11] <AlanBell> sure
[13:12] <AlanBell> but this isn't a sophisticated monitoring system
[13:12] <neuro> well, no
[13:12] <neuro> you're just building mail filters
[13:12] <AlanBell> no
[13:12] <neuro> you are
[13:12] <AlanBell> the opposite of mail filters
[13:12] <neuro> if this, and that, then discard
[13:12] <neuro> if not this and that by then, then alert
[13:12] <AlanBell> how do you do a mail filter on a mail that doesn't arrive?
[13:13] <neuro> i know, i know
[13:13] <BigRedS> you check the mailbox for it at a time by which it should have arrived
[13:13] <neuro> it's still a filter, it's just an anti-mail filter
[13:13] <AlanBell> BigRedS: yeah, what does that though?
[13:13] <BigRedS> no, you need a non-filter component for when nothing arrives to be filtered
[13:13] <BigRedS> Perl
[13:13] <neuro> lol
[13:13] <neuro> it's true
[13:14] <neuro> unless you are using a myriad of incompatible monitoring and alerting systems though, i'm not sure what you are trying to achieve
[13:14] <neuro> it would be easier to simply tie all your monitors into one system, and alert on fail
[13:14] <BigRedS> no, this does sound like a lot of effort to not monitor something 'properly'
[13:14] <rindolf> AlanBell: maybe try Jabber/XMPP too.
[13:14] <rindolf> This is more reliable than E-mail.
[13:14] <BigRedS> most things are more reliable than email
[13:14] <neuro> rindolf: but at the end of the day, you're still (according to this requirement) checking for mail
[13:15] <neuro> or checking for the non-delivery of mail
[13:15] <rindolf> neuro: yes.
[13:15] <rindolf> I'm not going to completely do away with my use of E-mail.
[13:15] <AlanBell> you only get alerted if you need to care
[13:15] <neuro> AlanBell: hence why i think you need to be thinking further up the chain
[13:15] <BigRedS> yeah, so I'd say you want something that checks whether you need to care and alerts you if you don't
[13:16] <neuro> what if your mailbox runs out of disk or quota?
[13:16] <neuro> then all your alert criterion will fail
[13:16] <BigRedS> not something that checks whether something didn't send you an email to say that you don't need to care and alert you if it did
[13:16] <neuro> what if an upstream smtpd fails
[13:16] <AlanBell> neuro: then you get an email about it
[13:16] <neuro> well no, you wouldn't
[13:16] <AlanBell> or an SMS or something
[13:16] <neuro> that's my point
[13:16] <neuro> sorry
[13:16] <neuro> fail
[13:16] <neuro> you'd get MANY mails
[13:16] <neuro> was my point
[13:17] <AlanBell> fine, get many emails, it still only happens when I need to do something about it
[13:17] <BigRedS> neuro: I think we're two people who don't need the service trying think about how we'd want it implemented :)
[13:17] <neuro> and if you don't properly figure out that it's the anti-mail filter that's failed rather than the upstream thing you want to keep an eye on, you waste time running about like a headless chicken trying to work out what's happened
[13:18] <AlanBell> so this service sits out in "the cloud" and gives you an email address to send all that stuff to, sync jobs, backups, other junk that happens daily or weekly
[13:18] <AlanBell> including stuff for non-sysadmins
[13:18] <neuro> BigRedS: true, but i'm trying to work out the rationale for pushing the alerting criterion further downstream, and into a region that can be prone to false positives
[13:18] <AlanBell> like "daily invoice run completed", "month end process successful" or whatever
[13:19] <AlanBell> you direct them all at this service, and tell it what you expect, and it emails you only if something goes wrong including mails failing to arrive by the correct time
[13:19] <neuro> if you're doing batch jobs, you should have watchdogs that can measure that success/failure metric and report accordingly
[13:19] <neuro> the failure to report should not be the only metric for alerting
[13:19] <AlanBell> sure you should, but lots of people don't
[13:20] <BigRedS> neuro: exactly. should versus would, though.
[13:20] <neuro> then what you're proposing - and please don't think i'm trying to put you off, rather figure out your rationale - is creating a more brittle alerting system which can be used to make people lazier in their systems implementation
[13:20] <BigRedS> "you should do this properly, but you could do it this way"
[13:20] <neuro> exactly :)
[13:20] <AlanBell> yes
[13:21] <neuro> ok then :)
[13:21] <BigRedS> because 'this way' is still better than not at all
[13:21] <neuro> well
[13:21] <neuro> hehe
[13:21]  * neuro bites tongue :)
[13:21] <BigRedS> I have two mails I get every morning from a cronjob. I probably wouldn't particularly notice if I didn't get them one day.
[13:21] <AlanBell> exactly
[13:22] <BigRedS> I don't know why there's two of them. That's why I've not made it stop mailing me. I clearly don't care about the process enough to put a better monitor in
[13:22] <BigRedS> It's been about eight months since I first thought I should sort out the duplication, but thought that the best way to not forget was to simply leave it sending me mail
[13:22] <AlanBell> it is trivial to get a cron job or backup system, or virus file update system to send an email when it is done, most things do that
[13:23] <BigRedS> it's _much_ harder to get it to only mail you every time there's a problem
[13:23] <neuro> and *only* when there's a problem
[13:23] <BigRedS> its best to have something else that does all your tests and tells you if any of them fail. but nobody, really, does that.
[13:23] <AlanBell> yes, because many failure modes will stop the email happening
[13:24] <neuro> AlanBell: and what will you do with the success emails which don't trigger an alert?
[13:25] <AlanBell> just keep them or purge them after a retention period
[13:25] <BigRedS> 'file' them
[13:25] <neuro> ew
[13:25] <AlanBell> why ew?
[13:25] <neuro> privacy concerns for one
[13:25] <BigRedS> At least draw a pretty graph with them
[13:25] <neuro> would be better to bin the mail if it matches a metric for success
[13:26] <BigRedS> neuro: privacy concerns? it's an email you've punted at The Cloud, you clearly don't care who sees what's in it
[13:26] <neuro> treat it as a Cc bin
[13:26] <AlanBell> I was thinking that the user could set their own retention period
[13:26] <AlanBell> so if you want a retention period of 1 day then fine
[13:27] <neuro> why would you need to retain them at all?
[13:27] <BigRedS> maybe you want to check periodically that all the mail being marked as 'succes' really does mean success?
[13:27] <AlanBell> to check
[13:27] <neuro> so then you're an alerting *and* message storage service
[13:28] <AlanBell> but you could set it to discard as soon as it arrives and sets the flag on the trigger
[13:28] <neuro> could
[13:28] <AlanBell> possibly have a free as in beer service with a short retention period and not many monitors and a paid subscription for any retention period and storage
[13:28] <neuro> see, when you retain things like email, you then need to think about legal ramifications
[13:28] <AlanBell> yeah, I was thinking also to get it to set up filters by example
[13:29] <neuro> at least if you're binning every success mail after the trigger has been fired, you're not storing anything
[13:29] <BigRedS> neuro: surely if you're retaining email sent directly to you you've fewer problems? you're not a relay, you're a recipient
[13:29] <AlanBell> no more than for any other email service, and that is fine, I can think about legal ramifications
[13:29] <neuro> then when someone comes along with a court order, you can say "ah, but we don't do retention"
[13:29] <AlanBell> I have done email before you know :)
[13:29] <neuro> i'm not saying you haven't :)
[13:29] <neuro> i'm just playing devil's advocate here
[13:29] <neuro> i can see uses for such a service
[13:30] <AlanBell> :)
[13:31] <AlanBell> one thing that crosses my mind is you could direct a regular email at it, then log on to the website and say "I want an email like that one every day" rather than typing in your criteria
[13:31] <neuro> that would certainly get around criteria creation hassles
[13:31] <neuro> just cherry pick the bits you want
[13:32] <neuro> "this bit of the subject", "this bit of the body", "this sending IP"
[13:32] <AlanBell> yeah, so it would suggest a rough time window, from address, subject etc
[13:32] <neuro> you could just have a common tag at the end of the input address
[13:32] <neuro> electricboogaloo+config@foo
[13:33] <neuro> and it would disregard any filters/criteria for that message, and hold it in a config bin waiting to be dealt with
[13:33] <AlanBell> interesting point, yeah
[13:33] <neuro> or perhaps more real world jacn8afn2ynks+config@foo :)
[13:34] <AlanBell> so<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[13:34] <neuro> yeah
[13:35] <neuro> another suggestion: allow each filter to have a timezone set
[13:36] <AlanBell> ok, good point
[13:36] <neuro> you don't want a misfire in case an email by 2am arrives at 2am but is tagged 1am (or arrives at 3am) on a DST cutover
[13:37] <neuro> just allow UTC, PST/PDT, etc and make sure you match that timezone when doing the time criterion calcs
[13:37] <AlanBell> hmm, DST is *hard* to get perfect, it happens at different times in different places
[13:37] <AlanBell> but yeah, that can be done
[13:37] <neuro> yeah, but timezones are known entities :)
[13:37] <AlanBell> and it is easier to design it in now than fix it later :)
[13:38] <neuro> exactly
[13:39] <neuro> i'm pretty sure someone somewhere has written a library to deal with it ;)
[13:39] <BigRedS> force everyone into UK time
[13:39] <neuro> no
[13:39] <AlanBell> tempting
[13:39] <neuro> UTC or death
[13:39] <BigRedS> or, as we call it internally at work, One True Time
[13:39] <BigRedS> makes it way easier to schedule things
[13:39] <popey> you could surely do this with one giant procmail? ☺
[13:39] <BigRedS> no, nobody thinks in UTC. At least Britain thinks in UK time :)
[13:39] <neuro> well it's the logic of whatever procmail fires the email at that matters
[13:39] <AlanBell> popey: how does procmail send an email when it *doesn't* get one?
[13:39] <neuro> BigRedS: but UTC is a worldwide thing, unless you enjoy building parochial products that have a limited scope of use
[13:39] <neuro> zing
[13:39] <neuro> burn
[13:40] <neuro> Schrodinger's Mail Filter
[13:40] <neuro> the mail is both sent and unsent simultaneously
[13:40] <neuro> until the mailbox is opened
[13:41] <neuro> i'd say that's a better brand than exceptional emails :)
[13:41] <neuro> DIBS!!!!!
[13:41] <AlanBell> the wave function collapses
[13:42] <neuro> maybe i should build schrodinger's mail filter, you can build exceptional emails, and we'll see who gets there first :)
[13:43] <neuro> CAPITALISM!!!!!!
[13:43] <BigRedS> neuro: the fewer people who use my code the less time I need to spend fixing it :)
[13:43] <neuro> hehe
[13:43] <BigRedS> In some seriousness, I'd always use UTC for code. I just hate having to then make it human-friendly, precisely because nobody wants to work in UTC and it's really hard to guess and then work out what they do want to work in
[13:44] <neuro> the thing about UTC, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight about chaos ... it's fair
[13:44] <neuro> no worrying about when DST changes occur
[13:44] <BigRedS> it's like EU standardisation. It's mutually inconvenient for everybody
[13:44] <neuro> or if they change from year to year
[13:45] <neuro> also, you know, if it's good enough for the military ...
[13:45] <neuro> and NASA ...
[13:45] <neuro> all you need to track are leap seconds
[13:46] <BigRedS> seconds? Nah, I have the same resolution as cron.
[13:46] <neuro> cron's time resolution is only as good as your upstream ntp server
[13:46] <neuro> and your RTC
[13:46] <AlanBell> I wouldn't think that this needs to be accurate at all
[13:46] <neuro> you think?
[13:46] <AlanBell> you set the timeout for maybe an hour after the email normally turns up
[13:46] <neuro> as soon as you introduce time criterion, you need it to be accurate to the second
[13:47] <neuro> what if your failure timeout criterion needs to be more accurate than an hour?
[13:47] <neuro> well then i guess you need your own monitoring solution :)
[13:47] <AlanBell> just in case the job takes a bit longer, or the mail doesn't arrive so fast
[13:47] <neuro> ah, so now you're introducing fuzziness
[13:47] <AlanBell> yeah, if you need to care that urgently you wouldn't use this
[13:47] <neuro> which i guess could be a configurable option of each filter
[13:48] <neuro> or of each paid-for filter, if you want to be a freemium git about it
[13:48] <AlanBell> something like a "backup completed" email would not come at a predictable time every day
[13:48] <neuro> i have had backups that take a day :)
[13:49] <neuro> stupid rsnapshot
[13:49] <AlanBell> say the backup kicks off at 02:00 and normally finishes by 02:45 you might trigger the email to let you know if it isn't done by 04:00 because you still get the mail by breakfast time and you really don't care if it finished a bit late
[13:50] <neuro> see the complexity you're having to generate that could be dealt with by a well kept nagios install? :)
[13:50] <AlanBell> and yeah, I think a freemium model is probably what I will do unless a better idea presents itself
[13:51] <AlanBell> that isn't complexity!
[13:51] <neuro> you're uncovering additional criterion to meet a flexibility requirement due to operational fluctuations of the tasks being monitored (or the success/failure modes of the tasks)
[13:52] <neuro> you'll realise you need more as more situations get presented to you
[13:52] <AlanBell> that isn't an uncovered criterion, it is the first thing on my notepad of scribbles!
[13:52] <neuro> you know what i mean :)
[13:53] <AlanBell> and with the "by example" stuff I was going to suggest to the user adding an hour of leeway to the received time
[13:53] <neuro> i'm using flowery language to say that your notepad of scribbles will get filled with more stuff as more people think of stuff to check for
[13:53] <BigRedS> neuro: cron's time resolution is to the minute
[13:53] <neuro> but if your clock is off, then the execution time is not to the minute
[13:53] <neuro> it could be to ten past the minute
[13:53] <neuro> or the minute + 6
[13:54] <BigRedS> no, but that's not resolution, that's accuracy
[13:54] <BigRedS> or correctness
[13:54] <neuro> HANDBAGS AT DAWN
[13:54] <BigRedS> dawn in which timezone according to which ntp server?
[13:54] <BigRedS> in fact, which dawn?
[13:54] <AlanBell> the whole point of this is to grab emails that turn up at the *end* of jobs, which will have a variable length of time
[13:54] <neuro> red dawn
[13:55] <neuro> yeah but if you're wanting to know if a mail was or was not received by X
[13:55] <neuro> and the execution time is X-Y
[13:55] <neuro> but the time on the execution host is off by Z
[13:56] <neuro> and if the third train leaves King's Cross station at quarter past three, travelling at 40mph ...
[13:56] <BigRedS> haha
[13:56] <AlanBell> you just set X to be the time at which you would be worried if the mail hasn't arrived
[13:56] <AlanBell> not the time you are expecting it
[13:57] <neuro> i'm just saying, having time checking is useful
[13:57] <neuro> you could check the header Received: trail
[13:57] <AlanBell> timezones and DST is something to get right, but leap seconds are not worth worrying about
[13:58] <neuro> i'm not talking about leap seconds with regard to this discussion
[13:58] <BigRedS> yeah, I'd have though o'clock was resolution enough
[13:58] <neuro> oof
[13:58] <BigRedS> "if I've not received notification that this backup finished by midday let me know" etc.
[13:59] <neuro> sometimes, waiting 59 minutes to know if something bad has happened can be too long
[13:59] <AlanBell> BigRedS: exactly
[13:59] <BigRedS> neuro: then you need to monitor it properly
[13:59] <neuro> \o/
[13:59] <BigRedS> sometimes it takes 59 minutes for the mail to get to my mailbox
[13:59] <BigRedS> or to me. I might be having lunch
[13:59] <neuro> this is why man invented devices with wireless radios
[13:59] <neuro> also for easier access to pictures of cats
[14:00] <neuro> well, less so pagers and devices with SMS, but definitely smartphones
[14:00] <BigRedS> yes, but instead of ubiquitous 3G we're now aiming for patchy 3g and even more patchy 4g
[14:00] <neuro> there's no such thing as ubiquitous 3G
[14:00] <neuro> and there's no such thing as 4G in this country
[14:00] <BigRedS> I can't wait until there's two different generations of wireless data that I can't receive
[14:01]  * AlanBell wonders what technology to use to build this
[14:01] <popey> Go!
[14:01] <BigRedS> Fortan
[14:01] <popey> Brainfsck!
[14:01] <neuro> BigRedS: there aren't two different generations of wireless data, unless you mean 2G and 3.xG
[14:01] <neuro> popey: haha
[14:01] <BigRedS> neuro: I don't know what I mean, but I keep getting told that there's a new one soon while I can't get the old one
[14:02] <neuro> 3G = UMTS
[14:02] <neuro> 3.5G = HSPA
[14:02] <neuro> 3.9G = LTE
[14:02] <BigRedS> generations have point releases?
[14:02] <neuro> well, actually they have ITU standards definitions
[14:03] <BigRedS> Oh
[14:03] <BigRedS> so this new thing EE are going on about is three-and-a-half-gee?
[14:03] <neuro> "3G" is a bunch of ITU IMT-2000 standards
[14:03] <neuro> 3.9G
[14:03] <neuro> LTE
[14:04] <neuro> what AT&T call "4G" in the states is just 3.5G HSPA+
[14:04] <neuro> it's all branding
[14:04] <BigRedS> I need to stop trying to be interested, and get back to just complaining that none of it works :)
[14:05] <neuro> when it all works, it all works very well
[14:05] <neuro> what you need to keep an eye out for is LTE Advanced
[14:05] <neuro> which *is* 4G
[14:06] <BigRedS> but is that going to have better coverage than whatever I mean when I say 3G?
[14:06] <neuro> well
[14:06] <BigRedS> because I don't want faster internet on my phone, I want *useful* internet on my phone
[14:06] <BigRedS> I've still not been able to properly recreate that scene from Mission Impossible, and it's not because I can't find a helicopter to tie to the train
[14:07] <neuro> then you should try to stick to 900MHz HSPA for now (or in layman's terms, Voda or O2)
[14:07]  * AlanBell wonders whether to use exim or write the whole thing from scratch (ish)
[14:07] <neuro> postfix+procmail+python
[14:07] <BigRedS> whole thing from scratch
[14:08] <AlanBell> http://docs.python.org/2/library/smtpd.html#smtpd.SMTPServer and implement process_message
[14:08] <BigRedS> Oh, not the smtpd bit.
[14:08] <BigRedS> but get whatever smtpd you want to use, make it not accept spam and forward everything else to a heap of whatever you like writing text processing code in
[14:08] <AlanBell> inbound only
[14:08] <BigRedS> awk?
[14:08] <neuro> ooh, LTE Advanced does MIMO as part of the spec, didn't know that
[14:09] <BigRedS> If you try to pass too much of the logic over to the smtpd you're likely to end up wanting to do something that it can't do
[14:09] <neuro> woah yeah don't write your own smtpd
[14:09] <AlanBell> yeah, which is why I am thinking of getting the messages directly
[14:10] <neuro> getting them from where?
[14:10] <BigRedS> listening on port 25?
[14:10] <BigRedS> that's a solved problem and a reasonably hard one. Use someone else's solution.
[14:10] <neuro> ^ this
[14:10] <AlanBell> well, using lib/smtpd.py
[14:10] <neuro> why make life hard for yourself?
[14:11] <neuro> you're going to need an smtpd to throw out alerts anyway
[14:11] <AlanBell> well I have to get at the messages somehow
[14:11] <neuro> postfix and exim are mature and well-known entities
[14:11] <BigRedS> and, if it all goes well, you're going to want to scale. You're almost certainly going to want to do anti-spam stuff
[14:11] <neuro> procmail the inbounds and process them with $TOOL
[14:12] <neuro> jeez, even just dump them in a maildir and work with them in there
[14:12] <BigRedS> I'd just get $smtpd to pipe it into $tool
[14:12] <BigRedS> or, yeah, write an imap robot
[14:12] <BigRedS> actually, I'd *exactly* write an imap robot
[14:12] <neuro> yeah
[14:12] <AlanBell> one possible way is to set up exim with mysql back end for user management and dovecot for imap then python talks to imap
[14:13] <neuro> postfix+dovecot, then talk to the imapd or the maildirs direct
[14:13] <AlanBell> then in theory it could talk to another imap, including one off site
[14:13] <neuro> or clustered
[14:13] <AlanBell> but then I have to poke user information into dovecot/exim
[14:13] <neuro> you probably want to think about clustering up front, even if you only onebox the thing to start with
[14:14] <BigRedS> AlanBell: if it's SQL backed it's very easy code
[14:14] <AlanBell> so they need to be set up with database back ends rather than system users, which means not using the debian packages
[14:14] <neuro> errrrrr
[14:14] <neuro> wut?
[14:14] <BigRedS> huh?
[14:14] <BigRedS> we use postfix/dovecot/mysql on Debian with Debian packages
[14:14] <AlanBell> oh, I thought they were built without it
[14:15] <BigRedS> at-get install postfix-mysql dovecot-mysql
[14:15] <BigRedS> I think
[14:15] <BigRedS> something like that
[14:15] <neuro> yarp
[14:15] <BigRedS> I scripted the whole thing: https://github.com/BigRedS/postfixadmin-installer all that's not packaged is a perl lib (that is in non-free) and the vacation plugin
[14:15] <neuro> neuro@saratoga:~$ apt-cache search postfix-mysql
[14:15] <neuro> postfix-mysql - MySQL map support for Postfix
[14:15] <neuro> neuro@saratoga:~$ apt-cache search dovecot-mysql
[14:15] <neuro> dovecot-mysql - MySQL support for Dovecot
[14:15] <neuro> Well. Known. Entities.
[14:15] <neuro> don't reinvent the wheel
[14:16] <BigRedS> we've a few hundred of those
[14:16] <BigRedS> hm. many tens. lots of things are still qmail...
[14:16] <neuro> BigRedS: that's a cute script
[14:17] <BigRedS> it's horrific
[14:17] <BigRedS> did you read the code?
[14:17] <neuro> :)
[14:17] <neuro> yeah
[14:17] <AlanBell> why won't it work on oniric?
[14:17] <neuro> i mean yeah, it's evil :)
[14:17] <AlanBell> oh, it works on precise, that is OK
[14:17] <BigRedS> dovecot changes its config file layout
[14:17] <BigRedS> there's a 'wheezy' branch that probably does
[14:17] <neuro> DOVECOT! *shakes fist*
[14:17] <neuro> actually ...
[14:18] <neuro> UPSTREAM!!!! *shakes fist*
[14:18] <BigRedS> But, yeah, that script evolved from a bash script that had a bunch of Perl one liners into a Perl script
[14:18] <neuro> :)
[14:18] <BigRedS> the SVN history before I put it into a github repo is, er, harrowing
[14:18] <BigRedS> but it works, so I don't want to rework it :)
[14:18] <neuro> i still haven't evolved from bash, i'm ashamed to say
[14:19] <BigRedS> I generally stop using bash as soon as I need an if statement
[14:19] <BigRedS> I can never get those right
[14:19] <neuro> echo " * executing post-update processese"
[14:19] <neuro> if [ "$1" == "" ]
[14:19] <neuro> then
[14:19] <neuro>         SERVICE="ssl deny dns dhcp ntp squid noc"
[14:19] <neuro> else
[14:19] <neuro>         SERVICE="$*"
[14:19] <BigRedS> the spaces and square brackets and when I need quote marks and argh
[14:19] <neuro> fi
[14:19] <neuro> :)
[14:19] <neuro> part of my stupid config mgmt thingy
[14:21] <neuro> this one is my favourite (part of *cough* something else)
[14:21] <neuro> while test $# -gt 0; do
[14:21] <neuro>         case "$1" in
[14:21] <neuro>                 -*=*)
[14:21] <neuro>                         optarg=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[-_a-zA-Z0-9]*=//')
[14:21] <neuro>                         optarg=
[14:21] <neuro>                         ;;
[14:21] <neuro>                 *)
[14:21] <neuro>                         ;;
[14:21] <neuro>         esac
[14:21] <neuro>         case "$1" in
[14:21] <neuro> ...
[14:21] <neuro> case statements!!! crazy!
[14:21] <neuro> (not sure if that made it through, stupid flood protection)
[14:23] <BigRedS> at least some of it did. I dislike all of it because it's bash, though
[14:23] <BigRedS> :)
[14:23] <neuro> :)
[14:23] <dwatkins> optarg=
[14:23] <dwatkins> doesn't that make it null?
[14:23] <AlanBell> so, with exim/mysql and dovecot mysql I create a user by writing a username/password to a database table or is there a library to wrap that?
[14:24] <BigRedS> I've written a Perl library for the postfixadmin system that script installs
[14:24] <BigRedS> it's also badly written, but it does work :)
[14:24]  * neuro harrumphs
[14:24] <neuro> design your system first, then engineer it
[14:24] <neuro> :)
[14:24] <BigRedS> It's really basic SQL, though. If you're just interested in adding simple transports you could write your code in a couple of hours
[14:26] <neuro> dwatkins: it's matching for --fish=bar, setting $optarg to bar; if there is no = in the flag, then there's no option argument
[14:27] <neuro> i don't actually use it later in the script, it's all a big incomplete mess
[14:27] <neuro> ergo, bash :)
[14:27] <BigRedS> but whatever the first line does, the second will null $optarg, wont it?
[14:27] <BigRedS> so you may as well not have the "optarg=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[-_a-zA-Z0-9]*=//')" line
[14:27] <dwatkins> neuro: ah ok, thanks
[14:28] <jacobw> why wouldn't use you use getopts?
[14:28] <jacobw> sorry, that's not a sentence
[14:28] <jacobw> why wouldn't you use getopts?
[14:30] <neuro> because i'm a sadist
[14:30] <neuro> and i probably forgot about that when i wrote that
[14:30] <neuro> i don't actually remember writing it
[14:30] <neuro> i just know it's in some code i have for some stuff i use
[14:31] <DJones> Interesting Valve news story, announce Linux video game store as it announces the lay off of some staff http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21471974
[14:32] <dwatkins> perhaps they were people who were trying to get half-life 3 finished before the end of the decade ;)
[14:32] <neuro> um wow
[14:32] <neuro> valve prided themselves on having zero turnover
[14:34] <mgdm> how is zero turnover possible?
[14:35] <jacobw> everyone dies before they move on
[14:35] <jacobw> i think that would satisfy some definition of zero turnover
[14:36] <BigRedS> mgdm: enthusiastic rounding
[14:39]  * AlanBell decides to use python smtpd library for version 1
[14:40] <neuro> or maybe it was github that has had zero turnover
[14:41] <neuro> this is an awesome read though: http://media.steampowered.com/apps/valve/Valve_NewEmployeeHandbook.pdf
[15:09] <einonm> I can only imagine that the valve layoffs are to do with the changing skill set that the company needs...things like graphics drivers are probably very different between Linux and Windows
[15:13] <einonm> but also, maybe I'm being cynical - trust the BBC to put a negative spin on something Linux related
[16:30] <Guest11358> I have two books, one is called Practical UNIX & internet security (third edition ), and the other is the o'reilly Linux in a nutshell (4th edition), could anyone tell me if they're still of any relevance, or if such systems have moved on to make all the technologies in the book obsolete, as they're relatively old books
[16:46] <rindolf> Guest11358: I think they should be fine.
[16:46] <rindolf> Guest11358: if you're fond of learning such stuff from books.
[16:46] <rindolf> Guest11358: have not really read them, but O'Reilly books tend to be very good.
[16:47] <DJones> !manual | Guest11358 This could well be of use as well,
[16:48] <Guest11358> ah cool, find printed copies much easier to read generally, i have tons of ebooks but reading from a monitor after a while is awkward, plus I picked these books up from college for about 30p each haha, thanks for the reply
[16:49] <BigRedS> the principles are likely to be about right for either, but the detail might be a bit off by now. Does the Linux in a nutshell book say which kernel version it expects?
[16:49] <BigRedS> er, covers. It's a book, not software
[16:50] <Guest11358> not sure, was printed in June 2003 if that says anything
[16:51] <Guest11358> obviously not about the kernel, could have a good guess at the kernel from the time stamp though
[16:51] <BigRedS> nah, that's going to be not so old that it's useless
[16:52] <BigRedS> depends what you're interested in, really
[16:52] <Guest11358> and ubuntu manual seems okay, a lot of the stuff im perfectly capable of doing, been using ubuntu for a few years, becoming my main OS now and im just trying to understand some of the deeper aspects, been playing with the terminal a lot more
[17:04] <popey> Azelphur: https://plus.google.com/u/0/109365858706205035322/posts/FDxuNJXSdfw
[17:04] <popey> \o/ TF2
[17:04] <Azelphur> I'm up for bat beatings.
[17:08] <Azelphur> annnnd everybody left :p
[17:09] <Azelphur> also, 300fps flat out with compiz enabled, w00t
[17:10] <Azelphur> lemme know when your playing and I'll join ya
[17:11] <Azelphur> for now, back to work https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/2013/Jan/2013-02-13-215546_5120x1440_scrot.png xD
[17:24] <Laney> bah
[17:24] <Laney> the initial tf2 download is massive
[17:24] <Azelphur> yep lol
[17:25] <Laney> not getting stellar speeds either
[17:25] <Azelphur> takes a lot of space for the worlds most advanced hat simulator
[17:39] <popey> http://www.canonical.com/content/touch-developer-preview-ubuntu-be-published-21-february-2013
[17:39] <popey> \o/
[17:43] <Laney> good use for a broken nexus 4?
[17:43] <Laney> :P
[17:44] <popey> :D
[17:49]  * AlanBell puts an include in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TouchInstallProces pointing to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TouchInstallProcess because of sloppy sloppy press release
[17:51] <AlanBell> or maybe a redirect
[17:53] <Laney> har har
[17:55] <Paladine> popey, what bitrate do you recommend for a podcast?
[17:59] <davmor2> ghoti == fish  you take the gh from tough, the o from women and the ti from station :)  the English Language rocks
[18:01] <rindolf> davmor2: what?
[18:01] <rindolf> davmor2: my last name is Fish.
[18:02] <rindolf> But I'm not English - I'm an Israeli Jew.
[18:02] <davmor2> rindolf: it's a play on the different ways you can say a combination of letter in English
[18:04] <davmor2> rindolf: it's things like tough and plough, how is 1 ending uff and the other ow and why is stuff not spelt stough etc
[18:08] <rindolf> davmor2: yes.
[18:08] <rindolf> davmor2: and through.
[18:34]  * AlanBell observed fixed press release
[18:51] <redtape-renegade> Ominous package arrived today ... https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/Lubuntu%20docs/Merchandise%20Mania%20%28Kubuntu%20Pens%29%20takes%20Royal%20Mail%204%20days%20to%20arrive%20usually%20by%20.png
[18:57] <penguin42> took me a few seconds to parse that as 4 days not 204
[18:58] <directhex> mmm, monitors
[18:58] <directhex> i wish i had a monitor
[18:58] <penguin42> buy one?
[19:00] <directhex> they cost money!
[19:00] <directhex> real money!
[19:01] <penguin42> this is true
[19:01] <davmor2> directhex: poach Azelphur 's bitcoins and by one :)
[19:02] <directhex> i said real money, not crazy cyberlibertarian pretend money!
[19:02]  * directhex flees
[19:03] <brobostigon> lol, on the one show, tuffers dressed up like arthur dent.
[19:03] <davmor2> directhex: yeah but poaching fake money that can buy real stuff can't be a crime right it was only numbers on a machine :D
[19:09] <redtape-renegade> !anyone want a pen ?
[19:22] <jacobw> redtape-renegade: yes
[19:34] <redtape-renegade> jacobw: I've PM'd you 2 mins ago ...
[20:02] <popey> Azelphur: on it now ☺
[20:03] <popey> http://www.gametracker.com/server_info/<IP_ADDRESS>:27015/top_players/#search
[20:03] <ali1234> so does juju have a charm for tf2 server?
[20:05] <popey> ya
[20:06] <ali1234> cool
[20:06] <ali1234> but why isn't my steam working?
[20:06] <ali1234> bash: /usr/bin/steam: No such file or directory
[20:07] <ali1234> oh wait i know
[20:07] <ali1234> it's because i accidentally /usr/bin/ and then repaired it from packages
[20:07] <ali1234> but steam is not on the repos
[20:07] <ali1234> or wasn't when i installed it
[20:08] <directhex> davmor2, if Azelphur truly loved me, he'd donate £626 of bitcoins so i can buy a new screen!
[20:10] <ali1234> argh 142 mb steam update
[20:10] <MartijnVdS> yeah steam updates aren't tiny
[20:12] <penguin42> directhex: 626 ?! You're not after a cheap screen are you?
[20:13] <directhex> penguin42, well i wouldn't want to *downgrade*.
[20:13] <directhex> that'd be silly!
[20:13] <penguin42> wth do you get for 626?
[20:14] <penguin42> I mean you can get a 2560x1440 27" for around 450
[20:15] <MartijnVdS> yay ebay
[20:15]  * penguin42 means new, not ebay
[20:15] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: you can get new ones from ebay
[20:15] <MartijnVdS> for that price
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> or even cheaper
[20:16] <popey> bah, shopping has arrived
[20:16] <directhex> penguin42, a *good* 1440p 27" with displayport and an actual usable stand
[20:16] <popey> how do you go AFK in tf2?
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> popey: Alt+F3
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> uhr
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> F4
[20:16] <directhex> popey, hit the team change button, join "spectate"
[20:16] <Azelphur> popey: what's the address again?
[20:16] <penguin42> directhex: Oh you're a picky one aren't you....
[20:17] <directhex> penguin42, i have business raisins for displayport.
[20:17] <popey> http://www.gametracker.com/server_info/<IP_ADDRESS>:27015/top_players/#search
[20:17] <penguin42> directhex: I prefer chocolate raisins
[20:18] <MartijnVdS> chocolate raaaai
[20:18] <MartijnVdS> n
[20:19] <amayer_> is it better to use steams repo or the default ubuntu repo for steam.
[20:19] <amayer_> i got steam from the steam repo a while back and now i see it is in the ubuntu repo
[20:19] <popey> doesnt matter
[20:19] <penguin42> directhex: ebuyer list a 27" sammy with displayport for 572
[20:19] <popey> it self-updates
[20:20] <amayer_> so they will be identical
[20:20] <Laney> handy for raring users
[20:22] <amayer_> how come when i type:
[20:22] <amayer_> sudo apt-get update && apt-cache search steam
[20:23] <amayer_> steam doesnt show on 12.04LTS? but it shows up in the software center
[20:23] <Laney> it adds a new repository
[20:23] <directhex> software center shows a lot of things in custom repositories
[20:24] <ali1234> i just ran TF2 and it just says "Steam Beta must be running to use Find Servers"
[20:25] <Laney> can i get steam to not pause a download when i'm playing a game?
[20:25] <ali1234> but steam clearly is running
[20:28] <directhex> ali1234, sounds like you have an extremely old steam.deb installed
[20:28] <directhex> ali1234, i.e. older than <IP_ADDRESS>
[20:28] <directhex> Laney, sadly, it's down to a game's publisher to mark whether a game needs full bandwidth interwebs or not, and the default is "yes"
[20:31] <ali1234> directhex: i just installed the one from the software center, and then it did an update
[20:31] <ali1234> about steam: Build: 14 Feb 2013
[20:32] <directhex> the steam client, and the steam updater, are distinct entities. steam.deb contains the steam updater, and is responsible for things like enforcing folder structure
[20:33] <ali1234> how do i check steam updater version?
[20:33] <directhex> issues with games not detecting steam are usually caused by an out of date updater (i.e. .deb), NOT an out of date client... they sorta need to be kept in tandem
[20:33] <directhex> ali1234, dpkg -l steam ?
[20:33] <ali1234> ii  steam                                                 <IP_ADDRESS>ubuntu1                 i386                            Installer for the Steam software distribution service
[20:33] <directhex> ii  steam          <IP_ADDRESS>     i386         Installer for the Steam software
[20:33] <directhex> hm, that should be current then
[20:33] <ali1234> exactly :/
[20:34] <ali1234> so, what should i do? delete ~/.steam and start over?
[20:37] <directhex> mmmmmmm, not sure. worth a shot if you have spare bandwidth
[20:43] <Azelphur> Anyone happen to have any ideas about TF2 on AMD 7950? on fglrx-updates it won't start ( this bug https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/688 ) on latest it starts, but with poor frame rate
[20:45] <penguin42> in the end it's a seg so toss up between graphics driver and game code I guess - both of which are closed
[20:46] <Azelphur> \o/
[20:46] <penguin42> is anyone else having problems with text corruption in large text entries in firefox - e.g. lp forms where a line won't get redrawn for a while?
[21:11] <redtape-renegade> ☺ Authome ! \o/ |
[21:33] <ali1234> directhex: deleting .steam worked, although it s a symlink and steam just recreated it. but then everything started working.
[22:27]  * Azelphur buys hacker duality off steam


[14:45] <LantzR> Hiya. Looking for feedback on my comment #3 to Bug #1119832.
[14:45] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1119832 in nautilus (Ubuntu) "After creating a blank txt file in ~/Templates there are 2 "Empty Document" options in context menu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1119832
[14:47]  * penguin42 looks
[14:51] <penguin42> LantzR: I suspect it's probably best to comment on the upstream bug
[14:52] <chilicuil> penguin42: it's actually fixed, see last comment in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687139
[14:52] <ubot2> Gnome bug 687139 in File and Folder Operations "Context menu entry to create a new blank file" [Enhancement,Resolved: notabug]
[14:54] <penguin42> chilicuil: Yeh but not bubbled down into ubuntu yet from my reading; the reporter is pointing to the fix as I read it
[14:54] <LantzR> penguin42: Thx I will look. The process was from TC-NFM-001 in http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/testcases/1424/info
[14:56] <penguin42> LantzR: Hmm so is that just a bad test case; in the sense if you create the document as Empty Text Document.txt  will the menu name be more sensible?
[14:58] <LantzR> No the test case is fine.     Template of aName.txt gives two menu entries. "aName" and "aName" one creates "aName.txt" the other creates "aName"
[14:59] <penguin42> oh I see, yeh that is weird
[15:00] <LantzR> My point re test case is I'm a virgin. Not sure if my comment was clear _and_ in the right spot for the qa testing results.
[15:01] <LantzR> The "Testing Tracker" is ... strange.
[15:02] <chilicuil> LantzR: I think it's ok, you've done an excellent work pointing out to the fix from a problem you found, I'd say it would be best for ubuntu to cherry pick the bug and provide some default file so people wont need to add them to its Template folder
[15:03] <LantzR> But your point ... I could have also gone upstream to post the a comment knowing that that is where the fix should come from.
[15:04] <penguin42> LantzR: Yeh I think that's a clear comment; I would have probably mentioned the test number you were following, but I don't do the test case stuff personally
 Ok thanks for the feedback.
[17:38] <GermainZ> Can someone please try syndaemon -d -i 2s -t? It should disable mouse taps (left/right clicks) and scrolling while typing, but it doesn't have any effect. The bugtracker (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-input-synaptics/+bug/366014) shows it as fixed, but I'd like to make sure I'm not doing something wrong before reopening.
[17:38] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 366014 in xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (Ubuntu) "Syndaemon -t option not working" [Medium,Fix released]
[18:07] <GermainZ> Never mind, it actually works for taps on the pad, but not for hard buttons (which isn't an issue).
[19:33] <jarlath> Can someone guide me on how to trace the root-cause of this issue I'm having? :http://askubuntu.com/questions/243630/shut-down-takes-me-to-greeter-now-removing-wifi-dongle-fixes#comment307626_243630
[19:33] <jarlath> title may be misleading
[19:53] <penguin42> hmm fun
[19:53] <penguin42> jarlath: There seem to be a bunch of people in bug 838792 that discussion references; but there again you say it doesn't happen without networking, which seems different from them
[19:53] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 838792 in gnome-session (Ubuntu) ""Restart" logs out, even when there are no other people logged in" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/838792
[19:55] <jarlath> yes penguin42, I'm stumped :) The networking exception isn't consistent in further testing so I'm not sure about it.
[19:59] <penguin42> oh, hmm
[19:59] <penguin42> jarlath: when it returns you to the login manager does it let you log back in ?
[20:00] <jarlath> penguin42: yes, it does.
[20:00] <penguin42> if you tap the power button instead of selecting shutdown does it shutdown?
[20:01] <penguin42> (I mean just tap it rather than holding it down - and that depends on the machine, some actually would switch off, most tell the OS)
[20:01] <jarlath> penguin42: that's a good question :) I'll try now and report back. It'll at least log me off so I'll be disconnected for a few minutes. Resist any temptation to hide when I come back :)
[20:01] <penguin42> me? Hide?
[20:02] <jarlath> :D
[20:02] <jarlath> here we go...
[20:04]  * penguin42 looks hidden
[20:04] <jarlath> Anybody seen penguin42?
[20:05] <jarlath> ...Damn. He tricked me.
[20:05]  * penguin42 hides behind ubot2
[20:05]  * jarlath thought he saw something move...
[20:05] <penguin42> anyway, erm so what happened?
[20:05] <jarlath> Okay.
[20:05] <jarlath> That took me as far as the greeter I'm afraid. Although the dialog box for the power button looks different to the one from the menu.
[20:06] <penguin42> hmph
[20:06] <penguin42> does a sudo shutdown -h now   shut it down   from a terminal in the desktop?
[20:06] <jarlath> Yes. sudo halt -p or sudo reboot work from a terminal window or a tty.
[20:07] <penguin42> I can't honestly remember what the difference is relative to those
[20:09] <penguin42> jarlath: So with the networking stuff I would have guessed it was some form of driver that didn't want to shut down properly; but if shutdown -h now is working then it sounds like the kernel will do it, it's just something not getting that far
[20:10] <jarlath> Good observation, that makes sense to me.
[20:10] <penguin42> I wonder if /var/log/upstart should see some stuff when a shutdown happens
[20:13] <jarlath> Hmmm... I see a mediatomb.log file in there. I uninstalled it the same day I installed it, but the date on the log is from only a few days ago.
[20:13] <jarlath> the mediatomb application that is.
[20:14] <jarlath> Whatever it is, it doesn't require a user to be logged in. I can just boot up to the greeter and try to log out and the problem will happen (unless I'm *really* quick). So whatever it is, it must be loading around the time the greeter appears.
[20:15]  * penguin42 isn't sure of the path of things that go from pressing the shutdown until it actually gets to doing the same as shutdown command; it's I guess going to have to go through policykit to make sure you have the perms to do it
[20:15] <jarlath> policykit. Right.
[20:16] <jarlath> Is there a gui for that?
[20:16] <penguin42> well there's the GUI where you give stuff permissions, but I don't think much more than that
[20:16] <jarlath> God, if I asked that back in 2001 I'd have been banned from the room. How things have changed.
[20:16] <penguin42> haha yeh
[20:16] <jarlath> okay, thanks. At least I can look into policykit.
[20:17] <penguin42> ok
[20:17] <jarlath> Yeah, I really appreciate that. Hope you have a great weekend.
[20:17] <penguin42> I can't see anything in the advanced bit of user settings that would indicate you could remove it
[20:18] <njin> hallo, can someone look at bug 1118626 ?
[20:18] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1118626 in Ubuntu "binutils: Split out libiberty-dev to multiarch paths" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1118626
[20:18] <jarlath> Hmmm
[20:19] <penguin42> jarlath: What version of ubuntu are you on?
[20:19] <jarlath> 12.04
[20:19] <penguin42> ok, let me just boot my 12.04 vm
[20:19] <jarlath> thanks
[20:21] <penguin42> jarlath: Hmm it has a lot less stuff in the GUI than the last time I looked at that...
[20:23] <jarlath> the policykit tool?
[20:23] <penguin42> jarlath: Well long ago there used to be an advanced bit of the user settings on system settings, but it's not there any more
[20:23] <jarlath> oh, okay.
[20:24] <jarlath> I'll bet it shuts down fine fine for you.
[20:24] <penguin42> nod
[20:25] <jarlath> hmm
[20:26] <penguin42> ah 12.04 has a lot less in /var/log/upstart
[20:27] <jarlath> Yeah, it's pretty eh... tidy
[20:30] <penguin42> hmm I wonder
[20:32] <penguin42> I'm going to pastebin the output of dbus-monitor --system > log    (run as root) it shows upstart being told you want to stop - again not quite sure how it gets to it
[20:32] <penguin42> hmm actually that's syslog being told to stop
[20:35] <penguin42> jarlath: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1630691/
[20:35] <jarlath> Thanks
[20:36] <jarlath> penguin42: so can I use the same command to diagnose my shutdown process or lack thereof?
[20:36] <penguin42> jarlath: well that was my guess of something to look at
[20:37] <penguin42> jarlath: You see how it's for the upstart jobs going through a series of pre-stop/stopping/stop for a load of things and then eventually Killed
[20:37] <penguin42> jarlath: It would be interesting to know if yours did the same
[20:38] <jarlath> I'll try now.
[20:38] <jarlath> Wish me luck.
[20:42] <jarlath> The system isn't very stable. I haven't actually stuck around long enough to try this before penguin42
[20:42] <penguin42> hmm, in what other ways is it unstable (I wish you said that before!)
[20:43] <jarlath> Windows won't close or resize (nautilus, firefox) and some page elements don't register events.
[20:43] <penguin42> huh, I'd fix that type of problem first
[20:44] <jarlath> Unity is fine. But when I hit the close button on the window decoration, said window seems to get stuck. I can't right-click on the desktop either when that happens.
[20:44] <jarlath> In System Settings, none of the icons respond to clicking.
[20:45] <penguin42> that sounds like you have much bigger problems then
[20:45] <jarlath> Yeah, I can't move the firefox window either. Only this text-box (thankfully!) is working. A re-install might be called for.
[20:46] <penguin42> yeh
[20:46] <penguin42> jarlath: There's a big difference between having one odd problem and a machine full of odd problems!
[20:47] <jarlath> Yeah, like I say. This has never happened during a first boot. I only noticed it now because I stuck around long enough after a failed shutdown.
[20:49] <jarlath> fsck would pick up on a bad disk sector right?
[20:49] <penguin42> no
[20:49] <jarlath> oh...
[20:49] <penguin42> jarlath: I'd use smartctl -a to check for a bad disk
[20:50] <penguin42> I think you can get some of them from the disk utility as well
[20:50] <jarlath> okay, I'll do that right now. Disk Utility requires the drive to be unmounted so I can't use it for /
[20:50] <penguin42> no
[20:51] <jarlath> Okay, the UI is totally unresponsive in Disk Utility too so I'll need to reboot.
[20:51] <penguin42> ok, use smartctl -a   to see if the disk is happy
[20:52] <jarlath> okay
[20:52] <jarlath> terminal works :)
[20:53] <jarlath> Wierd, I can use TAB and arrow keys to navigate the gui elements as normal. It's the mouse cursor that's the problem.
[20:55] <jarlath> penguin42: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1630752/
[20:55] <jarlath> I'm not sure what that all means, but it looks like there were issues.
[20:55] <jarlath> Oh, sorry for the full dump but no mouse....
[20:56] <jarlath> Line 51 is the start
[20:56] <penguin42> jarlath: My reading is that it's got hot at some point, and I'm not sure but I read that as it's still very hit
[20:57] <jarlath> Hmm, I did have the side of the case off for some time (months) so the cooling system couldn't have been working as well as it should.
[20:58] <penguin42> jarlath: There are some other errors in the logs - failed commands, there's a failed read (that's bad) but there are a load of other failed things like set capcaities - I've never seen things like those fail
[20:59] <jarlath> penguin42: thanks for that. Looks like a new harddrive - or at least a backup is in order.
[20:59] <penguin42> jarlath: Check your cabling as well; are there any errors in dmesg?
[21:01] <jarlath> Cabling seems secure, although the PSU I got has so much extra leads that it's like an overstuffed sock-drawer in there.
[21:01] <jarlath> Here's dmesg, there are errors: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1630774/
[21:03] <penguin42> no hard drive errors though
[21:03] <jarlath> Oh, no you're right.
[21:04] <jarlath> It seems the desktop issue I'm having now is purely the mouse arrow. I have full funcionality with keyboard shortcuts.
[21:05] <penguin42> heh ok
[21:05] <penguin42> jarlath: OK, then did you get the dbus-monitor output?
[21:06] <jarlath> And I've just un-stuck a mouse button and all is well 8/
[21:06] <jarlath> The dbus output didn't amount to much but here it is:
[21:07] <jarlath> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1630792/
[21:08] <penguin42> and that's the output of dbus-monitor --system  run as root  during a shutdown?
[21:09] <jarlath> run as my user, which was logged out during the process. Should I run as root from a tty? I don't think shutdown takes you past the greeter when someone else is logged in though.
[21:09] <penguin42> jarlath: No
[21:10] <penguin42> jarlath: Do a sudo -s  in a terminal inside your gui, then inside that do the dbus-monitor --system > logfile   and then try to shutdown
[21:10] <jarlath> So from the gnome-terminal on my desktop?
[21:10] <penguin42> yep
[21:10] <jarlath> ok
[21:12] <jarlath> penguin42: It looks identical
[21:13] <penguin42> pastebinit ?
[21:13] <jarlath> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1630814/
[21:13] <penguin42> huh ok
[21:14] <penguin42> well, I guess that means it ain't getting far at all
[21:14] <jarlath> No, just as far as the greeter. It doesn't seem to even attempt to shutdown properly.
[21:15] <penguin42> I've run out of ideas really
[21:15] <jarlath> penguin42: thank you so much. I can't believe you did all that.
[21:16] <penguin42> hey well I'm just sitting here avoiding solving a harder problem :-)
[21:17] <jarlath> Haha :)
[21:17] <jarlath> Do you work for Canonical?
[21:17] <penguin42> no
[21:18] <jarlath> If the problem is non-technical maybe I can help :)
[21:18] <jarlath> I'm a wedding singer lol (seriously!)
[21:18] <penguin42> haha no, it's rather technical
[21:18]  * penguin42 is a programmer in my day job as well
[21:19] <jarlath> okay. I did software eng. for my degree and graduated in 2003 but the band was doing well so I did that for ten years instead. So I'm mega rusty.
[21:21] <penguin42> hehe
[21:28] <jarlath> Goodnight penguin42. Hope your Sunday is better than your Saturday.
[21:28] <jarlath> And thanks again.
[21:29] <penguin42> hey it's been a good day