[09:55] <otubo> I'm gonna leave this question here and leave for lunch because I know it might take some time for someone to pick it up and answer: On this bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1593010 the systemd-generator and the ds-identify read correctly that the second boot doesn't have any DataSource and, from the logs, they disable cloud-init. But still, on the second boot, the network configuration gets
[09:55] <otubo> reset to dhcp.
[09:56] <otubo> If anyone has any hint on this, I'll be glad to thank personally on cloud-init summit :-) And now I'm off to lunch, be back soon.
[10:34] <otubo> perhaps rharper ^
[12:03] <dunz0r> Is there some way I could get cloud-init to "ask" me for the hostname? Doing a template for a vmware-cluster.
[12:33] <nvz> dunz0r: :)
[12:33] <nvz> guess you beat me here
[12:34] <nvz> dunz0r: thanks for mentioning this, I think this could be quite useful at some point I think I may hang out here and get familiarized with the project
[12:36] <dunz0r> Yeah. This seems really useful to what I'm trying to do, especially since I don't have to reinvent the wheel, like I was planning on first.
[12:37] <nvz> would've been my natural reaction
[12:37] <nvz> this is a really nice looking project
[12:37] <nvz> I just can't believe it doesnt appear they've thought of making it have interactivity
[12:38] <nvz> Windows has for a long time had that thing where you do an OEM install and on the first run it asks you all those questions
[12:38] <nvz> so you can have the system installed but still allow the user to set their timezone, username, update preferences, etc..
[12:39] <dunz0r> I can see why there's no interactivity, it isn't supposed to. This is for largescale deployments. Serious stuff
[12:39] <nvz> I'm fairly capable in python and this does interest me even though I dont have the kind of need for it right now like you seem to
[12:39] <nvz> I had always wandered about being able to configure linux systems like that to be able to have initial config done by the user and it looks like I could easily build that on top of this
[12:41] <nvz> like I just reinstalled debian on my cousin's laptop cause the m.2 ssd died and I had to install to his sata hdd he was using for /home.. and I'd have much rather sent it back to him so it booted up asking him for his user/password/fingerprints, etc..
[12:41] <nvz> rather than having to set what I could and leave a README on his desktop explaining the rest
[12:41] <nvz> and if I ever start doing more serious stuff with VMs this could really be useful there too
[12:46] <dunz0r> nvz: My dream here at work is having ALL configuration in salt-stack and essentially never touch the machines, but that's waaay ahead in the future :)
[12:48] <nvz> Ah, I'd never heard of salt-stack I thought you were referring to the salt minion thing in cloud-init
[12:48] <nvz> I've heard of ansible, puppet, chef, but these things are news to me
[12:49] <nvz> what amazes me about this cloud-init is like python itself, its well documented and I immediately felt comfortable with it just glancing over the site
[12:49] <nvz> it all just makes sense
[12:49] <nvz> these sorts of things can often be so cumbersome they're not really useful
[12:50] <dunz0r> nvz: Salt-minion is part of saltstack :)
[12:50] <dunz0r> Saltstack is the whole shebang
[12:51] <nvz> hmm.. I should probably familiarize with these things they're bound to come of use at some point.. saltstack, ansible, puppet, chef, vagrant, cloud-init
[12:51] <nvz> terraform
[13:00] <nvz> hmm.. see now this damn saltstack has one of them fancy websites that tells you a whole lot of nothing
[13:01] <Odd_Bloke> dunz0r: Are you asking for a tool that will help you generate cloud-config?  Or some sort of interactivity in the boot process?
[13:01] <nvz> I glanced about 90 seconds at the cloud-init site and I could probably use it like I been doing it for months.. I glance at the saltstack page and I'm still not even sure wth it is
[13:01] <nvz> Odd_Bloke: that was the general idea, they want to clone vms and be able to supply things on the first boot
[13:02] <dunz0r> Odd_Bloke: Interactivity in the boot-process. The machines aren't on AWS or something like that, so no way to input a config-file
[13:03] <dunz0r> nvz: Saltstacks frontpage is awful, yeah. https://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/ is what you want :)
[13:03] <Odd_Bloke> dunz0r: Where are these machines?
[13:03] <dunz0r> Odd_Bloke: In a VMWare cluster.
[13:03] <nvz> dunz0r: they make it sound like something commercial.. is it something you have to buy?
[13:04] <Odd_Bloke> Interactivity during boot isn't something that would be generally useful (because most launches that involve cloud-init generally aren't accessible to the user at all until SSH is up).
[13:04] <dunz0r> nvz: No, but they have an "enterprise" version. But I've never felt limited by the foss-version.
[13:04] <dunz0r> Odd_Bloke: Well, I've got console access.
[13:05] <nvz> Odd_Bloke: that is a good point
[13:05] <Odd_Bloke> Sure, some places you will have it, but that's not generally true.
[13:05] <dunz0r> Odd_Bloke: Today we create VMs from a template, set hostname/ip/regenerate ssh-host-keys/etc via the console, and that's a hassle
[13:05] <dunz0r> Odd_Bloke: Well, not generally no. But in my particular use case it is
[13:05] <nvz> Odd_Bloke: however I don't know of anything that is like this that could offer that OEM installed OS kinda feel and this seems to be ready to build that kinda thing on top of
[13:06] <dunz0r> I think I'll write something that gets input from the user during boot and then uses cloud-init to do the actual setup.
[13:07] <dunz0r> "user" generally being me or my colleagues
[13:07] <nvz> Odd_Bloke: my idea, and mind you I just heard about this project, and glanced breifly at the site.. but is it possible to just ship a cloud-config, then have the bit that allows you to run commands at boot hook something to basically interactively make vendor data?
[13:07] <Odd_Bloke> You could also look at generating a config drive from the input, and attaching that to the instances.
[13:07] <nvz> on the first boot that is
[13:09] <Odd_Bloke> I think the tricky part would be getting input from the console; cloud-init just runs as a daemon and outputs to the console via syslog.
[13:09] <dunz0r> Odd_Bloke: My plan is to write a bash script that interactively asks for hostname and IP, and then generate a cloud.cfg from that info and a base template
[13:09] <dunz0r> and THEN use cloud-init via the script to "setup" the machine
[13:10] <nvz> they have things that you can use to have an auto-login getty and such
[13:10] <nvz> you could have the base config set that up then get input and supply that input as vendor data overriding any config as supplied by the user
[13:11] <Odd_Bloke> So vendor-data doesn't override user-data, intentionally; the user should always be in control of their instances, regardless of what their vendor wants the configuration to be.
[13:12] <Odd_Bloke> dunz0r: You may want to consider having your script generate a config drive: https://askubuntu.com/a/867958
[13:12] <Odd_Bloke> Then you can attach that to the VM as you launch it, and cloud-init should find the configuration from it without intervention during boot.
[13:12] <nvz> I didn't even read about user data.. when I glanced it over I saw the main cloud-config then I seen the bit about vendor data that it says overrides cloud-config
[13:14] <Odd_Bloke> So cloud-config is really a format; it's YAML with a "#cloud-config" header so cloud-init knows that it's intended to be treated as cloud-config.
[13:14] <Odd_Bloke> Both user-data and vendor-data can specify cloud-config.
[13:15] <nvz> yeah I noticed that much.. and I'm a fan of yaml.. when I first heard of it I avoided even looking at it because I thought it was another damn markup language.. years later when I finally looked it over I felt stupid :P
[13:16] <nvz> turns out its not Yet Another Markup Language, its YAML Ain't Markup Language
[13:16] <dunz0r> Wait what:O
[13:17] <Odd_Bloke> dunz0r: Actually, looking at https://git.launchpad.net/cloud-init/tree/doc/sources/ovf might give you a better way of generating the ISO containing user-data.
[13:18] <Odd_Bloke> (I haven't played with VMWare much, so I don't know exactly how to do this, I'm afraid.)
[13:23] <dunz0r> Odd_Bloke: Generating an OVF would be a lot more work than what I have in mind, but I appreciate the input :)
[13:25] <Odd_Bloke> OK, I'll be interested to see what you come up with! :)
[13:28] <smoser> i dont' know how the answer at https://askubuntu.com/questions/867946/cloud-init-and-ova/867958#867958 would work
[13:29] <smoser> admittedly i dont understand lots of things about vmware.  but that does not look like it'd work.
[13:31] <smoser> i would expect, though to be able to launch a vm on vmware that had an attached cdrom with a NoCloud datasource on it.
[13:31] <smoser> you can build such a datasource easily with cloud-localds
[13:31] <smoser> http://atom-lab-3.insieme.local:5880/pijaserami
[13:31] <smoser> err... sorry
[13:31] <smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/K9CcHyTd2V/
[13:32] <smoser> strike two
[13:32] <smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/3GyHXxB2CW/
[13:32] <smoser> there.
[13:32] <smoser> stupid finger memory for internal hastebin
[13:45] <otubo> if systemd-generator and/or ds-identify disabled cloud-init, it means totally disable or it still runs some things? I'm setting a network configuration with cloud-init, but when I reboot (both scripts identify that there's no datasource any more) and state as disabled
[13:46] <otubo> but the network configuration is reset to dhcp instead of the initial configuration which was static
[13:46] <Odd_Bloke> rharper: blackboxsw: I'm looking at validating a network configuration bug (https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1812857) and I'd really appreciate some guidance as to how best to synthesise a networking environment for testing.
[13:46] <Odd_Bloke> otubo: I would expect that they wouldn't run at all, but /var/log/cloud-init.log would tell you the truth of that.
[13:48] <otubo> Odd_Bloke: I can see the pretty network configuration box with ascii art on /var/log/messages, setting everything back to dhcp
[13:49] <otubo> Odd_Bloke: and I can also see the logs in /run/cloud/ saying no datasource was found the cloud-init will be disabled
[13:49] <otubo> I'm a bit puzzled.
[13:51] <otubo> Odd_Bloke: I can also see this weird message on the logs, but I'm not sure if this is *causeing* the issue or if it is a *consequence* of the issue, or even not related:
[13:51] <otubo> https://pastebin.com/3NFJkwcK
[13:59] <smoser> otubo: if you have the generator enabled correctly
[13:59] <smoser> then cloud-init will not run *at all* if there is no datasource (or it is disabled)
[14:00] <smoser> otubo: cat /run/cloud-init/ds-identify.log
[14:00] <smoser> and /run/cloud-init/cloud-init-generator.log
[14:00] <otubo> smoser: both of them report as disabled, but I'm gonna paste here, sometimes I'm just missing something.
[14:01] <smoser> otubo: i suspect you have the services enabled.
[14:01] <smoser> the other services.
[14:01] <otubo> smoser: https://pastebin.com/LtdzQG1D
[14:03] <smoser> is suspect you have your units (cloud-init.service, cloud-init-local.service, cloud-final.service, cloud-config.service) enabled.
[14:03] <smoser> i suspect they are 'WantedBy=multi-user.target'
[14:03] <smoser> when they should be WantedBy=cloud-init.target
[14:03] <otubo> let me check that
[14:03] <smoser> the generator only handles enabling or disabling that target
[14:04] <otubo> smoser: bulls eye
[14:04] <otubo> https://pastebin.com/9PwbF6es
[14:24] <smoser> otubo: as upstream we'd love to have the generator enabled in rhel packaging
[14:26] <otubo> smoser: I'll send a patch soon, once I confirm this is the root cause :-)
[14:26] <otubo> smoser: thanks a lot for the help!
[14:44] <rharper> Odd_Bloke: yeah, I think launching an lxc with a network-config that has bond0 over eth0, should show that .
[14:45] <Odd_Bloke> rharper: Yeah, I got that working eventually but NoCloud doesn't seem to trigger the error.
[14:45] <Odd_Bloke> I can reproduce the error if I poke the appropriate function in a Python shell, but that seems like cheating. :p
[14:46] <rharper> hrm,  it's somewhat related to the speed at which bond0 picksup the mac of the member
[14:46] <rharper> IIRC
[14:46]  * rharper re-reads the bug
[14:48] <rharper> Odd_Bloke: alternatively, you could boot with the bond0 + eth0 setup; cloud-init clean;  cloud-init init --local
[14:48] <rharper> that should trigger cloud-init seeing bond0 and eth0 with same mac
[14:48] <rharper> that way you don't have to rely on boot timing
[14:48] <Odd_Bloke> Oh, it's because the error is in openstack's convert_net_json.
[14:48] <Odd_Bloke> Well, it's further down, but that's where the traceback comes from.
[14:49] <rharper> yeah, they had an ironic deployment
[14:49] <Odd_Bloke> And NoCloud just passes my network config through verbatim, rather than having to convert it from OpenStack's format.
[14:50] <rharper> yes, I guess it's a matter of having get_interfaces() list called
[14:50] <Odd_Bloke> I (think I) reproduced in a KVM, but then couldn't get into it (presumably because cloud-init failed before setting my password or SSH keys?).
[14:50] <rharper> so either fallback networking, or some other network_config path which triggers that;  and I still think best to clean and then run cloud-init init --local
[14:50] <rharper> you can backdoor the image
[14:50] <rharper> with root passwd first
[14:51] <Odd_Bloke> Right, yeah.  Can you remind me how to do that?
[14:51] <rharper> yeah, I use  sudo mount-image-callback --system-mounts bionic-server-cloudimg-amd64.img -- chroot _MOUNTPOINT_ /bin/bash
[14:51] <rharper> then passwd
[14:53] <Odd_Bloke> Thanks!
[15:11] <Odd_Bloke> rharper: Oh, right, but this is still going to boot with NoCloud.  Do we have a good way of mimicking ConfigDrive locally?
[15:39] <smoser> Odd_Bloke: easier than that is
[15:39] <smoser>  https://gist.github.com/smoser/8c65b8771d5ab1d99c44c285323dfff6/
[15:39] <smoser> well, only slightly easier. but it makes sure that you can get in.
[15:39] <smoser> if you just ran 'passwd' and cloud-init got borked, you'd have no ssh host keys
[15:41] <smoser> but wrt config drive.. you can just craft one. easiest way to do it would probably be to just mount an existing and then change things you want.  i think we possibly had a tool to make them at one point. but not sure where.
[15:53] <Odd_Bloke> Yeah, I do have console access so password is sufficient for this particular case, thankfully.
[15:53] <Odd_Bloke> Cool, I'll go find an example one for me to poke at.
[15:53] <Odd_Bloke> Thanks for the advice!
[16:43] <Odd_Bloke> OK, so I have a configdrive ISO now; how do I need to invoke kvm/QEMU to have it found properly?
[16:58] <Odd_Bloke> Oh, my ConfigDrive is invalid.
[16:58] <Odd_Bloke> That sounds like a problem for post-lunch Dan to deal with.
[17:17] <smoser> Odd_Bloke: use xkvm. and use '--disk=foo.img'
[17:54] <Odd_Bloke> smoser: Do you have a sample config drive I could take and modify?  This tool I found is actually creating a NoCloud source despite having "config_drive" in its name.
[17:55] <smoser> that is odd in deed.
[17:56] <smoser> Odd_Bloke: what i'd do is launch a serverStack instance with '--config-drive=1' on the openstack cli
[17:56] <smoser> and then dd to get the disk.
[17:56] <smoser> there are probably some examples attached to bugs though
[17:59] <smoser> Odd_Bloke: https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1671927
[17:59] <smoser> attachment 'sr0.gz' there is at least a start.
[17:59] <smoser> sorry, 'config-drive' is the name of the attachment
[18:00] <Odd_Bloke> Thank you!
[18:16] <Odd_Bloke> Oh right, except now I need to somehow write OpenStack network config language to reproduce this.
[18:22] <Odd_Bloke> rharper: You thought we might be able to reproduce this (https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1812857) in a booted instance at stand-up.  Did our conversation change that, when we realised it was ConfigDrive-specific?
[18:23] <Odd_Bloke> Because I really don't want to have to work out how to construct correct OpenStack network_data.json by hand.
[18:23] <rharper> it's not config drive specific; it can happen on any path in cloud-init which requires us to use net.get_interfaces()
[18:24] <rharper> I don't think we need to, really; I think just bringing up bond0/eth0, and then python3 -c 'from cloudinit import net;  print(net.get_interfaces())'  and ensure that bond0 isn't in the list
[18:24] <Odd_Bloke> Are we happy for me to reproduce it in a Python shell then?
[18:24] <rharper> I'm fine with that;
[18:24] <Odd_Bloke> OK, cool, I'm good with that.
[18:26] <rharper> I think it reasonable to show the net config, verify that eth0 and bond0 have the same mac, that cloudinit.net.is_bond() returns true on bond0 , false on eth0; and then that bond0 doesn't show up in get_interfaces();
[18:27] <rharper> before/after upgrade should show that we do get bond0 in the list and it raises duplicate exception, post-upgrade we don't get the exception and bond0 isn't in the list;
[18:28] <Odd_Bloke> OK, cool, I'll continue with my lxd container setup I started on before thinking I might be able to reproduce the exact bug.
[18:28] <Odd_Bloke> Thanks!
[18:41] <smoser> Odd_Bloke: what you need to do is write a renderer for Openstack networking ocnfig in cloud-init
[18:41] <smoser> and then you could just use net-convert
[18:44] <Odd_Bloke> Trivial!
[18:47] <rharper> we already have that
[18:47] <rharper> smoser: Odd_Bloke:  net-convert  has a json input
[18:48] <rharper> which is effectively the openstack format
[18:48] <rharper> --kind json
[18:50] <blackboxsw> ok copr build for CentOS7 is updated for the cloud-init version which is currently undergoing SRU validation in ubuntu: 19.2.~385 https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/g/cloud-init/el-testing/
[18:50] <smoser> thats input
[18:50] <smoser> he needed output
[18:51] <rharper> ?
[18:51] <rharper> ah, right
[18:51] <rharper> I have input (aka output) that includes bonds and macs like Ironic
[18:51] <rharper> but even that's more complicated than just verifying that net.get_interfaces() skips bonds
[19:00] <Odd_Bloke> Yep, I'll proceed with this.
[19:52] <blackboxsw> rharper: are we waiting on bionic and disco for https://github.com/cloud-init/ubuntu-sru/pull/45/files?
[19:52] <rharper> ugh, right
[19:52] <rharper> lemme do that
[19:53] <rharper> blackboxsw: thanks
[19:53] <blackboxsw> no worries
[19:53] <blackboxsw> pending cloud-init SRU 19.2.24 publish isn't until Tuesday next week anyway. so still time :)
[19:54] <rharper> but I had forgotten, so thanks
[20:10] <Odd_Bloke> OK, I have a test case, but it doesn't work on xenial because the bond never gets created because: /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/ifenslave: 37: /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/ifenslave: cannot create /sys/class/net/bonding_masters: Permission denied
[20:23] <Odd_Bloke> Ugh, pretty sure this is a problem because I'm in a container; the owner is different outside of a container.
[20:35] <rharper> modprobe bonding IIRC
[20:35] <rharper> on the host
[20:35] <rharper> IIRC
[20:35] <rharper> Odd_Bloke: ^
[20:36] <rharper> container bonding is PITA
[20:38] <Odd_Bloke> Nah, it doesn't work even in a privileged container with the module loaded; "read-only filesystem".
[20:38] <Odd_Bloke> I think I'm going to need to do the xenial test in a VM.
[20:38] <Odd_Bloke> Which is fine, because we've established that using NoCloud is fine.
[21:49] <rharper> https://github.com/cloud-init/ubuntu-sru/pull/45
[21:49] <rharper> blackboxsw: updated


[01:44] <blairbo> the lxc bridge juju created assigned itself a subnet that already exists in my network. How do I change that so I can connect to "exposed" charms from outside the host
[01:44] <blairbo> ?
[01:52] <sarnold> blairbo: I think there's an /etc/defaults/lxc or lxc-net file that you can fiddle with; be aware though that juju's local provider is pretty touchy about what can and can't be changed with the lxc configuration, not all variables there can be changed and still have things work
[02:52] <blairbo> sarnold: well it's not worth a whole lot if I can't access the environment outside of the host. there must be some logic as to how it chooses the network address for the host bridge.
[02:54] <sarnold> blairbo: it's mostly intended for local development...
[02:55] <blairbo> sarnold: what would the ideal setup be for a private cloud?
[05:43] <sarnold> blairbo: I think 'private cloud' would probably be served better by maas or openstack, though I think the end goal of local provider or ssh provider might eventually give you what you'd like today..
[09:31] <AskUbuntu> Should MaaS and Juju get installed on one of my servers or on a client system? | http://askubuntu.com/q/347866
[12:37] <gnuoy> what process writes to all-machines.log on the bootstrap node ? The file is growing at an alarming rate, >2.5G in the past 30mins
[12:38] <gnuoy> weirdly, if I do  "head -1 all-machines.log" I get a seemingly endless stream to stdout.
[13:05] <gnuoy> I've stopped rsyslogd and wiped the file and started it up again and I have meedages from ~5 hours ago
[13:06] <gnuoy> *messages even
[13:09] <gnuoy> starting rsyslog for 1s results in 10M of log file which vi reckons is all on one line
[13:10] <gnuoy> wc reckons its 0 lines so I guess theres no eol
[13:14] <gnuoy> the messages seem to be prefixed with the unit name, which seems to be the bootstrap node for all messages I've checked.  HP Cloud?
[14:09] <gnuoy> private openstack
[14:27] <gnuoy> marcoceppi, I'm doing a redeploy without the charms to the bootstrap node and I'm seeing the same thing, all-machines.log is 2.2G and growing
[14:28] <gnuoy> urgh, sorry, one did go to the bootstrap node. let me redeploy
[15:38] <avoine> is there a new way to set the log level on units?
[15:51] <avoine> must be either development or logging-config environment variable
[16:02] <jcastro> sidnei: hey, how's your puppet/juju these days?
[16:04] <jcastro> noodles775: same question!
[16:08] <noodles775> jcastro: sounds like a loaded question :P. I'm not using puppet other than to update internal stuff occasionally (I've got a branch somewhere of a puppet version of a test charm for an internal service that I did a while ago - it's not been touched for months though).
[16:11]  * noodles775 might still have the charm-helpers branch that added puppet support (masterless), just for declaring machine state etc.
[16:22] <kurt_> jcastro: who is working on the quantum-gateway charm?
[16:22] <kurt_> is that jamespage or adam_g?
[16:23] <jamespage> kurt_, me
[16:23] <kurt_> jamespage: is there a bug with being able to delete floating IPs?
[16:23] <kurt_> in quantum
[16:24] <jamespage> kurt_, not that I'm aware of
[16:24] <jamespage> what's the problem? what are you trying todo which is failing?
[16:25] <kurt_> I'll give you a paste bin in a sec - putting it together
[16:25] <jamespage> is the ip still assigned to an instance? if it is quantum won't let you delete it
[16:25] <kurt_> it isn't
[16:26] <kurt_> jamespage: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6133418/
[16:27] <jamespage> kurt_, quantum floatingip-list ?
[16:28] <kurt_> that's there...
[16:28] <kurt_> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6133425/
[16:29] <jamespage> kurt_, you need to delete that first
[16:29] <kurt_> I guess quantum doesn't support more than 1 floating IP list at a time
[16:29] <kurt_> I created another and it didn't give me errorrs
[16:30] <kurt_> jamespage: anyways, thanks.  I will give that a try
[16:30] <jamespage> kurt_, ?
[16:30] <kurt_> jamespage: huh?
[16:31] <jamespage> "<kurt_> I guess quantum doesn't support more than 1 floating IP list at a time"
[16:31] <kurt_> right
[16:31] <kurt_> more than 1 subnet
[16:31] <jamespage> ah
[16:31] <kurt_> it would seem it should
[16:32] <jamespage> kurt_, well a router is normally associated with a subnet
[16:32] <jamespage> and a range of floating-ip's can be associated with the subnet as well
[16:32] <jamespage> kurt_, the nova-cloud-controller installs a helper for this
[16:32] <jamespage> quantum-ext-net
[16:33] <kurt_> I'll read up on that
[16:33] <kurt_> I'm loving quantum btw.  the more I use it, the more I like it
[17:00] <jcastro> hey guys
[17:00] <jcastro> due to some bw issues
[17:00] <jcastro> we're going to postpone the charm school for today
[17:52] <Therion87> Hello
[17:52] <Therion87> I'm using JuJu with AWS just setup it up haven't deployed anything and I already have an instance after running juju bootstrap
[17:52] <Therion87> Why is this?
[18:00] <kurt_> Therion87: when you bootstrap, you automatically create your first instance
[18:00] <kurt_> this is instance "0"
[18:00] <kurt_> aka your root node
[18:01] <kurt_> do a 'juju status' and you will see this
[18:02] <Therion87> Yea
[18:02] <Therion87> It was more a question of the purpose of it
[18:02] <kurt_> That is the core juju node.  You need this for all of the main juju functionality
[18:03] <Therion87> Ok
[18:03] <kurt_> You can use that node for other purposes too, like deploying other juju charms on
[18:04] <kurt_> RTFM on the "--to" functionality
[18:05] <adam_g> jamespage, is there a ceph charm change floating around to support setting the pg count by client when making pool?
[18:40] <kurt_> WOOT!  Fully working openstack instance with MAAS/juju/VMWare Fusion on mac osx. Finallly!
[18:41] <kurt_> it took a little fiddling with quantum networking and the vnc console to get things working, but its up and running
[18:42] <kurt_> Yes, MAAS and juju work on VMWare Fusion, as well as on KVM.  I just proved it.
[19:41] <hatch> when following the lxc setup guide on juju.ubuntu.com and then deploying/exposing the GUI the ip it's exposed to is an ip local to that machine - has there been any documentation on how to expose these servvices to the host machine?
[21:23] <marlinc> Juju is trying to access something on my MAAS server that doesn't exist..
[21:23] <marlinc> - - [20/Sep/2013:23:20:54 +0200] "GET /MAAS/api/1.0/files/provider-state/ HTTP/1.1" 404 276 "-" "Go http package"
[21:24] <marlinc> I just tried to run the juju bootstrap command
[21:24] <marlinc> I'm sorry. I ment the status command: error: file 'provider-state' not found
[21:25] <marlinc> What could it be.. running juju bootstrap doesn't work either. error: no tools available
[21:25] <kurt_> marlinc: try running again.  sometimes I've seen this on the first try
[21:25] <marlinc> Well I've ran it 5 times
[21:25] <kurt_> ah, try juju sync-tools first
[21:25] <marlinc> Well I've tried that too and that throws: error: environment has no access-key or secret-key
[21:25] <kurt_> you may get a EOF on one of the tool packages, at which time you should try again
[21:26] <marlinc> Well the sync command doesn't run at all
[21:27] <kurt_> juju destroy-environment; juju sync-tools
[21:28] <marlinc> Still the same problem
[21:28] <marlinc> https://gist.github.com/Marlinc/4461c6a36ddb36bd3840
[21:28] <marlinc> This is my environments file
[21:30] <marlinc> Ah it appears the MAAS tutorial isn't very up-to-date
[21:30] <kurt_> you don't have ssh keys generated
[21:30] <marlinc> I had to install charm-tools
[21:30] <marlinc> Now I can run bootstrap without issues
[21:30] <kurt_> are you doing this on MAAS?
[21:30] <marlinc> Yes
[21:30] <kurt_> ok, so you are good then?
[21:31] <marlinc> Yes for now
[21:31] <kurt_> do your MAAS nodes have access to the internet?
[21:31] <marlinc> They should have
[21:31] <kurt_> juju can be a little fiddly in the bootstrap process
[21:32] <kurt_> you need to generate ssh keys too
[21:32] <marlinc> I already got those :)
[21:32] <kurt_> it wasn't in your environments.yaml
[21:32] <kurt_> needs to be there
[21:33] <marlinc> Ah okay
[21:34] <marlinc> Well I'm following the quick start: http://maas.ubuntu.com/docs/juju-quick-start.html
[22:03] <utlemming> on raring, can you have multiple lxc environments using the devel ppa?
[22:04] <utlemming> I am seeing a case where I can use one environment, but if I try to use the other, it fails
[23:14] <dalek49> exit
[23:14] <dalek49> (apologies)


[01:37] <bkerensa> Needs Sponsor Love: https://code.launchpad.net/~bkerensa/ubuntu/raring/ubuntu-docs/13.04/+merge/159058
[04:55] <ScottK> kirkland: Looks like you last testdrive upload lost a debian/changelog entry.  Please reupload - http://launchpadlibrarian.net/137515417/testdrive_3.17-0ubuntu3_3.18-0ubuntu1.diff.gz
[04:55] <ScottK> or two
[06:04] <pitti> Good morning
[06:24] <dholbach> good morning
[07:06] <jibel> doko_, test_shutil only fails when run under adt-run. The 3 others (code_module and subprocess tests ) fail even when run directly.
[07:51] <jibel> doko_, TestWhich.test_non_matching_mode fails because adt-run executes it as root and the file is always writable.
[07:51] <jibel> doko_, Possible solutions could be to search for a file with execute bit set instead of writable, or set the file immutable or skip the test if executed as root.
[07:56] <pitti> or not running the tests as root perhaps?
[07:56] <pitti> it currently specifies "Restrictions: needs-root"
[08:36] <smartboyhw> kirkland, ping
[08:37] <smartboyhw> roaksoax, ^
[08:53] <xnox> smartboyhw: what's up?
[08:56] <seb128> http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/accountsservice.html
[08:56] <seb128> is there a way to ask for a retry for udd imports?
[08:57] <smartboyhw> xnox, about Testdrive:)
[08:58] <xnox> seb128: I supposedly have access to trigger that =)
[08:58] <seb128> xnox, can you try? ;-)
[09:00] <xnox> seb128: well, it will not work.... as "$ pull-debian-source accountsservice 0.6.21-4" fails as well. That upload is clearly bogus =)
[09:00] <xnox> as dpkg-source cannot unpack that upload.
[09:00] <seb128> xnox, it's not really buggy
[09:00] <seb128> it has a sources and a sources.ubuntu
[09:00] <seb128> that works fine with quilt
[09:00] <seb128> but not with dpkg source v3
[09:01] <seb128> xnox, or, yes, that upload is buggy on Ubuntu in some way, the debian maintainer didn't make the ubuntu patches to apply
[09:01] <doko> pitti, but then, how would I turn off apport without running as root?
[09:01] <seb128> xnox, it would unpack fine on debian
[09:02] <pitti> doko: ah right, for that
[09:02] <pitti> doko: the test could run "su -c 'python ...' nobody" if that helps for that permission test?
[09:02] <xnox> seb128: arghhhh..... DEB_VENDOR and ./debian/patches/ubuntu.series strikes again...... sigh.
[09:02] <seb128> xnox, right...
[09:03] <xnox> seb128: I don't know what is the correct way to solve this. I notice something similar with another package long time ago and proposed to unpack lp:debian/package with DEB_VENDOR=Debian, but that means rewritting history.
[09:03] <doko> pitti: yes, but another patch requires writeable locations ...
[09:04] <seb128> xnox, ok, don't bother, I didn't realize we needed to un pack the debian source to have the ubuntu vcs
[09:04] <xnox> seb128: bug 911496
[09:04] <xnox> seb128: yeah, udd tries to do complete history with proper recollection that ubuntu packages are usually have lp:debian/package as ancestor.
[09:05] <pitti> jibel: would you know why in "run-adt-test -sl" "modprobe mac80211_hwsim" works fine, but it fails with run-adt-test -s network-manager"?
[09:05] <cjwatson> xnox: merge-o-matic takes care to unpack Ubuntu packages with DEB_VENDOR=ubuntu and Debian packages with DEB_VENDOR=debian - udd probably needs to do the same.  And yeah, it'd be a history rewrite
[09:05] <pitti> jibel: that module is in linux-..-extra, but I don't see that being treated in any special way in the scripts
[09:06] <xnox> cjwatson: thanks for pointer where to steal code for UDD =)
[09:06] <cjwatson> Only if you're very lucky :)
[09:06] <cjwatson> Ah, heh, I pointed that out to James according to that bug
[09:06]  * cjwatson reads Max's comment.  Messy :-(
[09:09] <pitti> jibel: unping, pebcak
[09:09] <xnox> cjwatson: and well, MoM simply gives a tarball on errors, here the "ubuntu" series patches were not refreshed and hence it would fail to unpack....
[09:09] <jibel> pitti, ack : )
[09:09] <xnox> (when unpacked the second time for the ubuntu branch)
[09:12] <xnox> seb128: my recommendation is to start ~ubuntu-desktop-team or ~ubuntu-core-devs branch where bzr import-dsc is used or such like on packages that are known to work.
[09:16] <cjwatson> xnox: Actually in the case at hand it crashed MoM
[09:16] <cjwatson> xnox: So I cared a little more than that :)
[09:17] <xnox> ouch.
[09:17] <xnox> =)))))
[09:17] <cjwatson> MoM fails if dpkg-source exits non-zero
[09:17] <xnox> hmm... true that is sensible.
[09:17] <xnox> cjwatson: should it fallback to unpacking ./debian/patches/series at all?
[09:17] <cjwatson> xnox: MoM or UDD?
[09:17] <xnox> cjwatson: either/both?
[09:18] <cjwatson> MoM's current behaviour is fine I think
[09:18]  * xnox really dislikes split personality source package, where it may or may not unpack depending on which $derivative one is using and whether the patches for refreshed or not.
[09:19] <cjwatson> I certainly don't think MoM should be peering at debian/patches/series* by hand (except in the generate-dpatches bit)
[09:19] <cjwatson> yes, I'm not a fan either.  I think it's normally more sensible, if you really need conditional behaviour, to have patches that make the behaviour be built conditional on a configure flag or environment variable or similar
[10:54] <xnox> doko: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5712837/ is python2.7's sysconfig a bit confused, or am I not passing correct optional args to it? It's reporting that everything is in /usr/local/*
[10:55] <cjwatson> doko: any chance you could look at the polyorb build failure at some point?  It sort of looks like -lgnarl isn't being added, which I *think* is meant to be done automatically by something in the gnatmake/gnatlink chain
[10:55] <cjwatson> But I don't know Ada at all, really
[11:00] <doko> xnox, see the FIXME in sysconfig._get_default_scheme ...
[11:00] <doko> cjwatson, heh, you did learn haskell too =)
[11:01] <doko> I'll look
[11:01] <cjwatson> doko: one exotic language per month, is my rule ;-)
[11:01] <cjwatson> thanks
[11:02] <doko> xnox, $ python -c "import sysconfig; print(sysconfig.get_paths(scheme='deb_system'))"
[11:04] <xnox> doko: ack, thanks.
[11:06] <xnox> cjwatson: is MQL4 on your list of exotic language to learn?
[11:07] <cjwatson> no
[11:07] <cjwatson> not least because I've never heard of it :)
[11:07] <doko> jibel, did you see these? http://paste.ubuntu.com/5712858/
[11:09] <xnox> cjwatson: it's to automatically script algorithmic forex trading. windows/wine only.
[11:11] <cjwatson> xnox: yeah, not exactly in my interest zone :)
[11:25] <jibel> doko, yes and this too http://paste.ubuntu.com/5712878/
[11:34] <pitti> cjwatson: I have some larger autopkgtest additions/changes for network-manager; I guess they are still ok at this time of the freeze?
[11:35] <pitti> i. e. debian/tests/* is not regarded as "features", as they don't impact the installed system
[11:36] <cjwatson> pitti: yes, should be fine
[11:41] <doko> jibel, http://bugs.python.org/issue17750 should now have all the depending issues
[11:56] <mdeslaur> @pilot in
[13:16] <doko> barry, ahh, you did find the installed testsuite issues ;)
[13:17] <barry> doko: no, but i just wanted to follow it.  i see other test suite failures building from the hg branches on 13.04
[13:22] <barry> doko: have you run the default or 3.3 branch test suite from hg source recently?
[13:23] <doko> barry, yes. well, this is 3.3.1, won't update anymore before the release
[13:29] <barry> doko: the ubuntu buildbots are red for 3.3 and 3.4 unfortunately.
[13:31] <doko> barry, well they are offline ...
[13:32] <barry> doko: i doubt they'd be green if they were online :)
[13:56] <mdeslaur> @pilot out
[13:56] <tseliot> pitti: do you still have the python script to reproduce bug #804662 ?
[14:01] <pitti> tseliot: no, sorry; should have attached it
[14:02] <tseliot> pitti: too bad. I'll try to figure it out from the bug report
[14:04] <pitti> tseliot: I guess it just called a few functions from NvidiaDetector and printed its results
[14:07] <tseliot> pitti: yes, I can see that the script printed something about an NvidiaDetector.alternatives.Alternatives object, the question is why this proved that the library is passing the wrong arguments
[14:58] <gQuigs> is recommending 64 bit (on website) only going to change for a LTS release?
[15:00] <smartboyhw> gQuigs, what do you mean?
[15:00] <gQuigs> guess I'm wondering if this [1] has been revisited for Raring
[15:00] <gQuigs> [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-April/035054.html
[15:00] <gQuigs> 64 bit desktop by default
[15:01] <smartboyhw> gQuigs, well I think it would be changing for everybody...
[15:03] <gQuigs> everybody means both 12.04 and Raring?
[15:03] <cjwatson> Fairly sure we're not changing that quite yet
[15:04] <cjwatson> Though it still needs to happen at some point
[15:04] <cjwatson> It's not necessarily tied to the LTS cycle, though, no
[15:05] <gQuigs> thanks cjwatson
[15:05] <gQuigs> do we know what is currently blocking it?
[15:06] <ogra_> a TB decision i would guess
[15:06] <ogra_> (or was there one ?)
[15:06] <cjwatson> Er, no
[15:07] <cjwatson> IIRC last we checked the resource consumption of 64-bit systems wasn't favourable
[15:09] <xnox> gQuigs: cjwatson: the website team is thinking to add a label to the 64-bit to say "(recommended for newer machines)" or something along the lines.
[15:09] <xnox> but to still keep 32-bit as the default option for raring.
[15:12] <gQuigs> xnox: right partly due to EUFI I'm guessing
[15:13] <gQuigs> the big reason it didn't go forward with 12.04 (from Ubuntu-devel) was because a significant number of people submit to ubuntu friendly with 32 bit only machines, with EUFI that might start going the other way
[15:13] <xnox> having 64-bit UEFI-only machines & significantly more than 4GB by default, even on budget machines will help to towards making 64-bit image by default.
[15:17] <bdmurray> mpt: now that update-manager tells you to reboot after installing updates do you think that update-notifier still should?  (It doesn't it most cases because the update-notifier tray is hidden.)
[15:19] <gQuigs> I guess what I'm really asking is how can I push 64 bit along :)   I can redo the power/memory tests to see what kind of impact it has...  or will it just come about when UEFI machines outnumber 32 bit only machines?
[15:26] <jdstrand> slangasek: hi! it seems that atd is no longer on the server cd. my interpretation of the list was that we still wanted it. was this intentional?
[15:26] <jdstrand> Daviey: ^
[15:26] <mpt> bdmurray, no, I don't think it ever should have. The first paragraph of <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates#alert> goes into a bit more detail. :-)
[15:26] <jdstrand> Daviey: and hi to you too :)
[15:26] <slangasek> jdstrand: hmm, not intentional on my part; looking
[15:28] <slangasek> jdstrand: I did put 'at' in the server-ship seed, which I thought was correct
[15:28] <slangasek> jdstrand: perhaps it was meant to be in 'server' rather than 'server-ship'
[15:28] <jdstrand> slangasek: hmm, it doesn't end up installed though
[15:29] <jdstrand> slangasek: you did that some time ago, right? my server install is from 20130410
[15:29] <bdmurray> mpt: great, thanks!
[15:29] <cjwatson> If you want it installed by default on server it'd need to be in the server seed
[15:29] <jdstrand> s/install/iso/
[15:30] <jdstrand> ah
[15:32] <psusi> ubiquity is not supposed to let you install grub to the usb flash drive you are booting from right?  even if it is detected as sda?
[15:36] <xnox> psusi: not supposed to, but it currently does for me when trying to install '/' on a fakeraid device.
[15:37] <xnox> psusi: bug 1167366
[15:38] <psusi> xnox: that's where it wants to install to an individual disk instead of the raid array isn't it?   So my situation is closer to yours, apart from instead of /dev/sdb it's /dev/dm-0.
[15:40] <xnox> psusi: "everything works fine" when booting in UEFI mode though. Try that, if possible on the target machines.
[15:40] <psusi> ahh
[15:41] <psusi> not happening to me, just triaged a bug report of install failure that looked to be caused by trying to install grub to the flash drive instead of the hd because they were detected in the reverse order
[15:42] <psusi> and I thought ubiquity supposedly handled that
[15:42] <xnox> psusi: it does handle it mostly correct, but not always.
[15:53] <gQuigs> (my last question, repeated from above):  will 64 bit by default just come about when UEFI machines outnumber 32 bit only machines?  or should I redo power/memory tests to see if it has less impact now?
[15:53] <smartboyhw> !patience | gQuigs
[15:54] <cjwatson> slangasek might have the most context on this ^-
[15:54] <cjwatson> or cking
[15:57] <stokachu> bdmurray: do i need to set verified-done and remove -done-{precise,quantal} from bug 1013798
[15:57] <stokachu> now that both series are verified
[15:59] <bdmurray> stokachu: if you look at the pending SRU report you'll see that the bug is green so no it doesn't look like it
[16:00] <stokachu> bdmurray: ok cool
[16:00] <stokachu> thanks
[16:07] <doko> jibel, python3.3 now waiting for approval
[16:24] <jibel> doko, good. there'll be another issue with autopkgtest and python3.3dm because it outputs ref counts to stderr
[16:26] <doko> jibel, honestly this seems to be a bad assumption in autopkgtest
[16:45] <smb> infinity, Has tomorrow still a chance to be today or will it be today's tomorrow? 3:)
[17:10] <kirkland> smartboyhw: howdy
[17:10] <kirkland> smartboyhw: here now, what's up?
[17:41] <infinity> smb: That was a convoluted sentence, but I think today is tomorrow.
[17:47] <ev> mpt: all the difference an order of magnitude makes. I think I found the bug. http://paste.ubuntu.com/5713799/
[17:47] <ev> going to do some more testing though
[18:19] <ev> mpt: false alarm
[18:36] <xnox> jibel: we could add a "stderr-no-fail" constraint.....
[18:46] <slangasek> jdstrand: yes, I adjusted the server seed at the same time that I adjusted the base seed; sorry, my point was that I think I put it in the *wrong* seed and that it should have been in server, not server-ship - I think you'll find it's still on the server *CD*, but not installed by default.
[18:53] <Daviey> aaaaa
[19:09] <jdstrand> slangasek: right, I gathered that after I read your and colin's comments. are you adjusting the seed or shall I?
[19:29] <slangasek> gQuigs: there shouldn't be any need to rerun the power/memory tests as there's unlikely to be much change there; it now mostly comes down to the numbers of users that are going to find each of the two options incompatible with their hardware.  With the UEFI question now, 64-bit will certainly figure more prominently on the website
[19:34] <gQuigs> slangasek: thanks...  are the current numbers public?
[19:35] <slangasek> gQuigs: hmm, I don't think so; I've had to ask various people with access to run queries to get information about the range of user systems we've seen in the wild
[19:36] <jdstrand> slangasek: ok, r2131 does it, so cool. thanks :)
[19:37] <slangasek> gQuigs: I mean, "the numbers" they came up with were posted to the discussion on ubuntu-devel last time we looked, which was a year ago; but sourcing new numbers requires access to data sources
[19:37] <slangasek> jdstrand: ok, great
[19:37] <slangasek> jdstrand: so you're the one user of at, eh? :)
[19:38] <infinity> I use it...
[19:38] <slangasek> weirdos
[19:39] <infinity> It's handy.
[19:39] <jdstrand> hoestly, I haven't used it for years, but that doesn't mean that other server admins don't :)
[19:39] <infinity> Depends on how far out my needs are.
[19:40] <infinity> If I want to do something in an hour, I just sleep 3600 and keep a session open, but if I want to do something sometime tomorrow, at makes more sense.
[19:40] <jdstrand> yeah
[19:40] <mcantor> Is there a channel devoted to developing *ON* Ubuntu?
[19:40] <jdstrand> imo, a server is a place where you expect to have certain things like at
[19:41] <gQuigs> slangasek: right, but that wouldn't have many UEFI hits and I was also curious if those numbers included derivatives (lubuntu/xubuntu likely would want to keep 32 bit more prominent for longer)
[19:41] <infinity> mcantor: The topic claims #ubuntu-app-devel
[19:42] <gQuigs> guess I should just ping ubuntu friendly?
[19:42] <mcantor> infinity: Haha, thanks; I saw "Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel)" and stopped reading... <.<
[19:42] <infinity> gQuigs: lubuntu/xubuntu aren't derivatives, they're flavours (which matters in this case, since we're probably talking about archive and/or whoopsie statistics)
[19:42] <slangasek> gQuigs: well, we were only considering the question for www.ubuntu.com, not for flavors; and while it's true there wouldn't have been many UEFI hits yet at that point, it at least gives info on the ratio of 64-bit to 32-bit-only machines
[19:42] <infinity> gQuigs: Actual derivatives (like Mint, for instance) wouldn't be counted in any stats we keep.
[19:43] <mcantor> Hmm. You guys might be able to help me out here anyway.
[19:43] <mcantor> When I link my application with -m32 and run gcc with -v, I see that /usr/lib/x86_64-gnu-linux is still the first directory in the LIBRARY_PATH. Am I doing something wrong?
[19:43] <gQuigs> infinity: right, sorry I misspoke (typed..)
[19:44] <slangasek> mcantor: what exactly is the gcc command you're running?
[19:44] <infinity> It's a bit of a chicken and egg, of course.  The longer we promote i386 as the default image, the higher our i386 stats on package downloads and whoopsie reports will be.
[19:44] <gQuigs> slangasek: but wouldn't Ubuntu Friendly have included information from lubuntu/xubuntu ?
[19:45] <infinity> Not that they'll go up, but you know what I mean.  They could go drastically down if that wasn't the default ISO. :P
[19:45] <slangasek> gQuigs: yes, but it wouldn't call it out separately
[19:45] <infinity> If this is purely about actual hardware stats (cpuinfo, etc), ignore me.
[19:45] <slangasek> infinity: no, the stats we're looking at for this is whether the machines *support* 64-bit.
[19:45] <infinity> But we have a lot less of those.
[19:45] <infinity> slangasek: Right, see above.
[19:46] <mcantor> slangasek: /usr/bin/c++ [my object files] -m32 `/opt/pym32/python-config --ldflags` -lboost_system -lboost_python -llog4cplus -lfreetype -o executable
[19:47] <slangasek> mcantor: and where are you seeing /usr/lib/x86_64-gnu-linux?
[19:47] <mcantor> slangasek: It complains that it cannot find the symbol 'dlopen@@GLIBC_2.1', but tells me that it is defined in DSO /usr/lib/i386-gnu-linux, and I should add it to my compiler command line
[19:47] <mcantor> slangasek: when I add /usr/lib/i386-gnu-linux/libdl.so to the command line, it works fine. I see /usr/lib/x86_64-gnu-linux when I add "-v" to the prior command line
[19:48] <mcantor> slangasek: it's the first directory in LIBRARY_PATH, which seems wrong to me, and I have a hunch that it's why the linker is complaining... perhaps it's finding the 64-bit libdl.so first.
[19:48] <infinity> mcantor: But your command line is lacking '-ldl'
[19:48] <mcantor> infinity: Sorry--"-ldl" is in the output of `/opt/pym32/bin/python-config --ldflags`.
[19:49] <mcantor> infinity: the full output of that command is '-L/opt/pym32/lib/python2.7/config -lpthread -ldl -lutil -lm -lpython2.7 -Xlinker -export-dynamic'.
[19:50] <jtaylor> is that after the object files? libraries before them are dropped due to ubuntus use of ld --as-needed
[19:51] <jtaylor> also if you get that message you should not rely on getting ldl form python-config
[19:51] <infinity> jtaylor: According to his paste, it is.
[19:51] <jtaylor> as you need it directly
[19:51] <mcantor> jtaylor: Pasting the output of python-config directly into my Makefile has the same results
[19:52] <mcantor> jtaylor: I don't see why it would be different, to be honest--Make tends to complete a subshell and insert its output just to avoid that kind of weirdness.
[19:52] <mcantor> jtaylor: It is after the object files, though.
[19:54] <jtaylor> hm it might need to be after boost
[19:54] <jtaylor> I recall some weirdness with boost_system
[19:54] <jtaylor> try adding a -ldl after the -lboost_system
[19:54] <mcantor> jtaylor: I've heard furtive whisperings and conspiracies that the linker is very sensitive to the order of link flags... I'll give that a shot
[19:54] <jtaylor> it is
[19:57] <mcantor> jtaylor: No dice
[19:58] <slangasek> mcantor: and you have the g++-multilib package installed?
[19:58] <mcantor> jtaylor: infinity: Here's the exact error I'm getting: http://pastebin.com/ZgBj4fUi
[19:58] <mcantor> slangasek: Indeed.
[19:59] <jtaylor> oh static libpython
[19:59] <mcantor> slangasek: Should I specifically *NOT* have ia32-libs installed?
[19:59] <jtaylor> then --ldflags output is wrong
[19:59] <jtaylor> the -ldl must be behind the -lpython2.7
[19:59] <mcantor> jtaylor: You're kidding--python-config itself is giving me bad output?
[19:59] <jtaylor> seems so
[20:00] <mcantor> jtaylor: I'll try it, but fwiw, adding /usr/lib/i386-gnu-linux/libdl.so to the *END* of the command line worked before
[20:00] <jtaylor> that should work, but the linker works in mysterious ways
[20:01] <mcantor> jtaylor: wait a tick... -ldl is already before -lpython2.7
[20:01] <jtaylor> behind lpython2.7
[20:01] <jtaylor> worst case add -Wl,--add-nedded
[20:02] <jtaylor> that will shut this warning up
[20:02] <mlankhorst> isn't it -Wl,-as-needed?
[20:02] <mcantor> jtaylor: By "behind" do you mean "after"?
[20:02] <slangasek> yes
[20:02] <jtaylor> this warning is ld --no-copy-dt-needed (or --no-add-needed)
[20:02] <slangasek> -ldl needs to be listed after libpython2.7 on the commandline; you shouldn't have to specify it as /usr/lib/i386-gnu-linux/libdl.so, -ldl should Just Work
[20:02] <jtaylor> -lpython2.7 -ldl
[20:03] <mcantor> trying that now
[20:03] <mcantor> Perhaps I should file a bug with Python since it is providing a bad command line
[20:03] <GunnarHj> slangasek: Sorry to be a pain, but you didn't change your mind about the Skype thing, did you? Suppose it's not directly related to the ISO builds, but I think sooner is better than later. ;-)
[20:03] <mcantor> I'll be damned. It worked.
[20:03] <jtaylor> its only bad with static python
[20:03] <jtaylor> if libpython is shared it works in wrong order too
[20:04] <jtaylor> but yes file a bug please
[20:04] <slangasek> if libpython is shared, the -ldl is unnecessary and redundant on Linux
[20:04] <mcantor> jtaylor: slangasek: why is the order significant? (I recognize that this is likely a Tip of the Iceberg question, but if you can direct me to further reading other than man gcc, I'd be delighted)
[20:04] <jtaylor> if you don't need it directly yourself
[20:04] <jtaylor> its a side effect of ld --as-needed
[20:05] <jtaylor> it sees libdl, nothing needs it, it forgets about it
[20:05] <mlankhorst> it matters mostly for static libs
[20:05] <jtaylor> then it seens libpython, its needed and now you are screwed
[20:05] <jtaylor> libpython.a
[20:05] <mcantor> ahhhh, ok
[20:05] <slangasek> GunnarHj: haven't changed my mind, but I did decide I want to do a local test to see if I can get a better backtrace proving the problem is with QtWebkit, not skype
[20:06] <jtaylor> its a ubuntu/mandriva specific problem
[20:06] <jtaylor> other distributions don't enable as-needed by default
[20:06] <GunnarHj> slangasek: Ok, thanks for letting me know.
[20:07] <mcantor> jtaylor: I see, thanks so much for the explanation and help!
[20:07] <cjwatson> and opensuse
[20:07] <jtaylor> really? I think I haven't seen it on 12.1
[20:07] <cjwatson> well, so said http://wiki.debian.org/ToolChain/DSOLinking#Only_link_with_needed_libraries anyway
[20:08] <jtaylor> on the other hand my makefiles are all well behaved ;)
[20:09] <mcantor> jtaylor: so why does this behavior screw up with a static library? can ld "not see" the required symbols?
[20:09] <jtaylor> ld goes through them from left to right, it can't go back to elements it has already checked
[20:10] <jtaylor> (unless you tell it to with -start-group)
[20:10] <mlankhorst> even that screws up, though
[20:10] <mcantor> jtaylor: wouldn't it have the same problem if python was a dynamic library, though?
[20:10] <mcantor> at the time it saw -ldl, it would still think "Nope, I have nothing that needs this"
[20:10] <jtaylor> that somehow works different, don't ask me why :)
[20:10] <mcantor> hahaha, ok, that's what I was specifically wondering about. XD
[20:10] <jtaylor> I never udnerstood why order on the commandline matters
[20:11] <mlankhorst> because computers are dumb
[20:11] <jtaylor> but I'm sure there are good reasons
[20:11] <jtaylor> makes it slow on old Z3 machines or so :)
[20:11] <mcantor> hahahaha
[20:11] <mcantor> great reasons, of course
[20:16] <slangasek> mcantor: with a shared library, there's nothing that needs relinking against libdl; you don't need to tell ld about a library that libpython is already linked against
[20:16] <mcantor> slangasek: Ah, that makes sense. It just goes and finds it at runtime like usual.
[20:18] <cjwatson> the order-insensitive behaviour of --no-as-needed also causes objects to end up with extra linkage that they don't need, because the linker doesn't go through at the end and trim out the ones that turned out not to be used
[20:20] <cjwatson> --as-needed is more efficient at runtime and makes library transitions less complex in cases of indirect linkage
[20:20] <cjwatson> (--no-copy-dt-needed-entries also contributes to this)
[20:21] <jtaylor> its clear the flag is good, but why does it make it order dependent instead of just adding a cleaning phase when it checked everything?
[20:21] <jtaylor> I could guess memory issues?
[20:21] <cjwatson> well, order-dependent is the traditional Unix behaviour, and indeed there are cases where linker memory use is a serious problem
[20:22] <cjwatson> I'm not certain that a cleaning phase could be implemented correctly, but I'm also not a linker expert :)
[20:22] <mcantor> I filed a bug with python here btw, for any interested http://bugs.python.org/issue17769
[20:23] <mcantor> cjwatson: The order-dependence does make more sense given slangasek's point. It's apples and oranges when it comes to being concerned with symbol usage.
[20:24] <cjwatson> Well, sure
[20:26] <cjwatson> I agree python-config --ldflags looks backwards
[20:26] <jtaylor> it also shouldn'T be ldflags :/
[20:27] <mcantor> jtaylor: Why not..?
[20:27] <jtaylor> then people put it into autotools LDFLAGS and you have the same problem for your own object files
[20:27] <mcantor> ah, I don't know autotools
[20:27] <jtaylor> autotools LDFLAGS is placed before your object files, so it forgets all the libraries listed in them
[20:27] <cjwatson> FWIW, all traditional Unix linkers have the behaviour where later entries on the link line supply symbols used by earlier entries.  It's just that some linkers are more permissive and people have incorrectly got used to that behaviour.
[20:27] <jtaylor> the right variable is LIBS
[20:27] <mcantor> jtaylor: python-config has a --libs flag, too, but the output is different
[20:27] <cjwatson> I believe the NT linker is the other way round, and AIX is similar.
[20:27] <cjwatson> (As in, AIX is the other way round too.)
[20:27] <mcantor> cjwatson: that makes sense.
[20:28] <cjwatson> jtaylor: It's not just autotools; make's implicit rules treat LDFLAGS and LDLIBS separately in much the same way
[20:28] <mcantor> I didn't know LDLIBS was another automatic variable used by Make
[20:29] <cjwatson> (CC) $(LDFLAGS) N.o $(LOADLIBES) $(LDLIBS)
[20:30] <cjwatson> with a $ at the start too
[20:30] <jtaylor> also LDADD and LIBADD, for libtool based autotools ._.
[20:31] <mcantor> What is LOADLIBS?
[20:31] <cjwatson> LDADD is automake
[20:32] <cjwatson> mcantor: thread starting https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-make/2005-01/msg00062.html
[20:32] <mcantor> thanks
[20:32] <cjwatson> (LOADLIBES is not a typo, or at least if it is it's not mine ...)
[20:32] <mcantor> Oh. Hahaha
[20:33] <cjwatson> (tl;dr: ignore it and just use LDLIBS)
[22:05] <zyga-phone> Hew: thnx
[22:05] <zyga-phone> Dzięki
[22:05] <zyga-phone> Grr
[22:15] <cseder> Wow! What a user count for a developers group!
[22:15] <cseder> Active community for sure.
[22:17] <cseder> Guess I should introduce myself… I work as a full-time developer, but I've used Linux for about ten years, and Ubuntu since its first release. So now I thought I should maybe contribute something back.
[22:22] <cjwatson> cseder: welcome :-)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu if you haven't seen it
[22:23] <cseder> So I'll be doing some development on my spare time...
[22:24] <cseder> I guess I'll just SVN the source tree?
[22:25] <cseder> Or maybe just read the Wiki first… ;-)
[22:25] <cjwatson> There isn't a single source tree
[22:26] <cseder> the source tree for my parts of interest was what I meant.
[22:26] <cjwatson> Ah, yeah
[22:26] <cjwatson> If you already have an idea what you want to work on, then sure
[22:27] <cseder> Well, I've done a bit of this and that, so I'll just check out what's needed and pick from that
[22:28] <cseder> Mainly C, C++ and C#, but a tiny bit of Python also
[22:28] <cseder> Most administrative scripts in Python, so I won't do that in the first round...
[22:29] <cseder> Haha… Now my Ubuntu installer just crashed. Maybe start there! ;-) kidding
[22:30] <cseder> Apport!
[22:31]  * infinity is still trying to find someone to talk into porting apport from Python to C/C++.
[22:32] <cseder> Probably a good idea
[22:32] <cseder> I'm not very fond of using python for main programming tasks. It's ok as a glue.
[22:34] <cseder> But I guess Ubuntu uses a lot of Python…
[22:36] <cjwatson> You can find lots of almost any language you care to name, really
[22:37] <doko> jibel, so for printing the reference counts in the debug interpreter. so why specify a filter in the control file, which filters these out to clear your stderr log file?
[22:37] <cjwatson> Most low-level system code is C or C++; a considerable amount of glue code is Python (especially that written specifically for Ubuntu) or Perl; GUI code is C/GObject, Vala, C++/Qt, etc.
[22:39] <cseder> cjwatson: guess it depends on the variations of Ubuntu as well… kUbuntu xUbuntu and the ilkes
[22:41] <cseder> That's what I'll miss from FreeBSD. One distribution. But then again there are other things I won't miss...
[22:42] <cjwatson> It's still all one archive
[22:43] <cjwatson> At a technical level, Kubuntu and Xubuntu are essentially just different sets of packages (and associated images) within the Ubuntu archive
[22:44] <cseder> aha.


[00:00] <smoser> sputnik13, i'm not opposed to having it extended to support lvm
[00:02] <sputnik13> smoser do you think it's better to extend growpart vs having a separate module for lvm?
[00:03] <smoser> i think it is most  useful if a signle executable can "do the right thing" personally.
[00:03] <smoser> with minimal depends.
[00:03] <harlowja> would it just be called 'part' instead of 'growpart'?
[00:03] <smoser> right now going forward, growpart works for gpt or mbr with just a dependency on sfdisk
[00:03] <harlowja> or better name
[00:03] <smoser> which is like everyone
[00:03] <smoser> and i'd like "growpart --any"
[00:03] <smoser> or something
[00:04] <harlowja> miraclegrowpart
[00:04] <smoser> it is kind of silly that you ahve to tell it which partition it needs to grow.
[00:04] <smoser> it looks and could quite easily know which partitions have space between them
[00:04] <harlowja> growpart --miracle
[00:04] <harlowja> lol
[00:05] <smoser> i have to run. sputnik13 i can look tomorrow at what is going wrong ther.
[00:05] <sputnik13> k, ttyl
[00:05] <sputnik13> growpart --magic
[00:06] <harlowja> growpart --ifeellucky
[03:19] <natorious> I'd noticed some issues w/ growpart and raid recently.  Wheres the issue tracker for that project?
[13:34] <smoser> natorious, cloud-utils
[13:34] <smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-utils/+filebug
[14:00] <natorious> aw sweet, thnx
[14:00] <natorious> https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-utils/+bug/1498930
[14:00] <natorious> who uses raid in the cloud lol
[14:01] <smoser> hm.
[14:01] <smoser> i'd think you  might have this same problem without growpart
[14:01] <smoser> if the md device was on an un-partitioned disk
[14:02] <smoser> and then you grew that disk
[14:02] <smoser> you'd still have "lost" that metadata.
[14:02] <smoser> right?
[14:02] <natorious> so if your to grow the raid volume say md126 or whatnot, it doesn't corrupt it
[14:03] <natorious> but if you grow say sda1 which is in raid 1 or 0 ex on md126, it would
[14:03] <smoser> right.
[14:03] <smoser> but if sda was not partitioned
[14:04] <smoser> and you "grew" that "physical volume"
[14:04] <smoser> in the host.
[14:04] <smoser> so there were zeros at the end
[14:04] <smoser> you'd then have busted that md device
[14:04] <smoser> right? ie, you cant just add zeros to a disk that has been used as a md
[14:04] <natorious> the physical volume or the raid volume
[14:04] <smoser> "physical"
[14:05] <smoser> /dev/vda
[14:05] <smoser> ie, its common in cloud/virt to just make a disk bigger.
[14:05] <smoser> shutdown. add zeros at the end. start up.
[14:05] <smoser> that would bust a md that was on an un-partitioned disk.
[14:06] <smoser> we're supposed to be having the cloud-inti 2.0 dev interlock right now.
[14:06] <natorious> if the disk isn't part of a raid volume w/ a filesystem, it shouldn't be an issue
[14:06] <smoser> so lets go do that right now.
[14:06] <natorious> if there is a filesystem and its raid 1, that same fs would show on sda
[14:06] <natorious> not raid 0 though
[14:06] <natorious> or most the others
[14:07] <natorious> k
[14:07] <smoser> k.  i think i'm right, but just not explaining well,. but maybe im' wrong.
[14:07] <natorious> np
[14:07] <smoser> http://bit.ly/cloudinit-reviews-public
[14:07] <smoser> cloud-inti 2.0 meeting time.
[14:07] <smoser> lets run through those really quick, and then smoser will actually look at them.
[14:08] <smoser> and maybe have some other work today on cloud-init.
[14:08] <smoser> ok. i just started reading claudiopopa's https://review.openstack.org/#/c/220095/
[14:08] <smoser> i will post some thoughts on it after this meeting.
[14:09] <smoser> then we have the task flow thing (which is much larger a python2.6 discussion really as Odd_Bloke is now a taskflow fanboy)
[14:10] <smoser> natorious, i'll take a quick look at your mp and have anyone else here interested do the sam.e
[14:11] <natorious> thnx
[14:18] <Odd_Bloke> o/
[14:18] <Odd_Bloke> I don't have anything new at the moment, I'm afraid.
[14:18] <Odd_Bloke> I'm heads down on some stuff that needs to happen for the next Ubuntu release.
[14:19] <Odd_Bloke> smoser: The Debian maintainer for taskflow has it building for Python 3 now, so that's another blocker gone.
[14:19] <Odd_Bloke> Well, a sync/merge away.
[14:21] <smoser> are we delta'd on it ?
[14:21]  * smoser swears at sillyness of <python>-<libraryname> as the source package name.
[14:22] <smoser> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-taskflow
[14:22] <smoser> we do have a delta.
[14:22] <Odd_Bloke> That looks like a fairly trivial delta.
[14:22] <smoser> ok. i'm goign to read over claudiopopa's review above, and will be around.
[14:22] <smoser> right, easy enough sync, i was just wondering if it was *no* sync
[14:23] <smoser> if its just a sync, i'm not oppsed to filing a bug and doing that in wily
[14:24] <smoser> above, the sillyness of python-libraryname is made abundently clear when <libraryname> drops python support and only works on python3.  meaning that the source packagek "python-libraryname" then only has binaries of "python3-libraryname".
[14:24] <smoser> anwyay... </rant>
[14:32] <natorious> the pip2dist stuff looks cool.  Would you need to follow cross platform dep changes though?
[15:14] <smoser> natorious, cross platform dep changes ?
[15:14] <smoser> oh. i think by nto allowing them :)
[15:15] <smoser> ie, if we're supporting a given OS, then stuff has to run in that. or it cant be accepted.
[15:18] <natorious> ah, nice catch on the misspelling btw.  I should remember to double check everythings when working late on weekends
[15:18] <smoser> i never make typos
[15:18] <smoser> (do not read 2 lines above where i spelled 'not' wrong)
[15:19]  * natorious chuckles
[15:20] <natorious> there was another bit with that buffer regarding behavior change that was glanced over in review
[15:20] <natorious> so as previously written the base's meta_data.json returned a buffer obj
[15:21] <natorious> and w/ the refactor bc it always has json suffix, it would be processed and returned as dict
[15:21] <natorious> and so http ds wouldn't be able to return the buffer attr from that
[15:21] <natorious> not sure if the dict or buffer would be preferred w/ something explicitly json
[15:22] <smoser> i think we want to rid of '.buffer' early rather than late.
[15:22] <natorious> k, cool.  Was trying not to change behavior for existing and had noticed that after the fact
[15:23] <smoser> so this is sort of wheere 0.7.x has userdata_raw and userdata (and vendordata_raw too)
[15:23] <smoser> its handled differently there, with  user-data and vendorddata , but maybe we want these unified.
[15:24] <natorious> vendordata and meta_data makes sense.  Userdata can be anything though right?
[15:24] <smoser> the difference being that cloud-init 0.7.x datasource puts in the vendordata the stuff that is meant for it.
[15:24] <smoser> versus *everything*
[15:24] <smoser> ie, in that json dict, it will only take out 'cloud-init' stuff  if there is such a thing there.
[15:25] <smoser> you are correct, yeah.
[15:25] <smoser> userdata is a binary blob
[15:25] <smoser> but user-data does have a similar behavior to vendor-data
[15:25] <natorious> so buffering for http would still be sufficient or were you saying axe it?
[15:25] <smoser> in that cloud-init might find some things intended for it
[15:25] <smoser> and some things not.
[15:26] <smoser> and kind of this is inconsistent in 0.7 . the way it handles.
[15:26] <smoser> i know i'm being confusing . sorry.
[15:26] <natorious> more so than usual but ok
[15:26] <smoser> :)
[15:26] <smoser> let me think.
[15:26] <natorious> the buffer was really the part that needed to go for the configdrive module to inherit from base
[15:27] <natorious> that was the primary reason for this
[15:27] <natorious> the refactoring and adding network json support in base would be needed for my test cases
[15:28] <natorious> to get it working with my openstack envs etc
[15:29] <smoser> so i dont think it makes sense for the user of userdata() to do .buffer
[15:29] <smoser> that seems silly.
[15:29] <natorious> I was thinking that was a req for http ds
[15:29] <natorious> but maybe no
[17:03] <sputnik13> alo alo alo
[17:11] <harlowja> smoser did i hear https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-taskflow
[17:11] <harlowja> lol
[17:11] <harlowja> ding ding
[17:11] <harlowja> lol
[17:12] <harlowja> smoser hey, soooo about turning off bzr,,,,,,
[17:12] <harlowja> sputnik13 i think was wondering where to submit a 0.7.x patch
[17:12] <harlowja> annnnnddddd
[17:13] <smoser> harlowja, can i have 45 minutes and ping me back?
[17:13] <harlowja> 44.9 minutes
[17:13] <harlowja> lol
[17:14] <smoser> 44.6
[17:15] <smoser> ahh.. will that clock ever stop ticking!
[17:15] <harlowja> :-P
[17:20] <sputnik13> :)
[17:21] <sputnik13> ohhhh, taskflow packaged in to ubuntu...  harlowja's baby is moving up in the world :-D
[17:22] <harlowja> lol
[17:22] <harlowja> sputnik13 our baby
[17:22] <harlowja> haha
[17:22] <harlowja> errr
[17:22] <sputnik13> I'm just the step parent that's helping out and trying to win its affection, it was already birthed by the time I came around
[17:22] <sputnik13> :-D
[17:23] <sputnik13> this is spinning off in a weird direction, I'm going to stop now
[17:23] <sputnik13> :)
[17:23] <harlowja> lol
[17:23] <harlowja> def
[17:23] <harlowja> ubuntulog2 stop logging all this
[18:00] <harlowja> tiems up
[18:00] <harlowja> lol
[18:18] <gster> hi all, I am hitting this old bug here https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=836269 on cloud-init v 0.7.5 release 10.el7.centos
[18:22] <gster> do you know any workaround e.g set systemd timeout maybe?
[18:29] <harlowja> smoser come back
[18:29] <harlowja> lol
[18:30] <smoser> almost back.
[18:30] <smoser> stupid security
[18:37] <smoser> harlowja, ok.
[18:37] <smoser> focus-on-git time.
[18:37] <harlowja> lol
[18:37] <smoser> what do you have
[18:37] <harlowja> i have whatever u need man
[18:37] <harlowja> lol
[18:38] <harlowja> https://code.launchpad.net/~harlowja/cloud-init/cloud-init-git-tarball-make might help
[18:38] <harlowja> but i guess we can further fix things that pop up
[18:39] <smoser> ok. let me take alook
[18:43] <harlowja> and i thinks https://github.com/harlowja/cloud-init/tree/0.7.x-fixed-final is the latest resync from bzr
[18:47] <harlowja> layered ontop of https://github.com/stackforge/cloud-init/tree/0.7.x
[18:57] <gster> harlowja: is this about the systemd timeout problem I  metionned earlier?
[18:58] <harlowja> gster nope, for that one not sure who is the best to respond (not me)
[18:58] <harlowja> some redhat person?
[18:58] <smoser> harlowja,
[18:58] <smoser> $ python setup.py --version
[18:58] <smoser> 0.7.7
[18:59] <smoser> (sorry to ignore you gster, but dont have time right now to look)
[18:59] <harlowja> smoser ?
[18:59] <smoser> it always shows that.
[18:59] <smoser> but i need a REVPOSTFIX
[18:59] <harlowja> no postfix for u
[18:59] <harlowja> lol
[19:02] <harlowja> smoser so integration of pbr will let u have a REVPOSTFIX because it makes one
[19:02] <harlowja> but for 0.7.x maybe in git-mode REVPOSTFIX can just be an env variable ?
[19:02] <gster> No problem smoser. I also found it in here https://github.com/sdake/heat-jeos/issues/1 on Fedora.. Quite a old bug though (2012)...
[19:12] <smoser> harlowja, ok. so some symantic differences between what you're suggesting and what i've done before.
[19:13] <harlowja> possibly
[19:13] <harlowja> from my understanding alot of openstack stuff has the following
[19:14] <smoser> right. reading from http://docs.openstack.org/developer/pbr/semver.html
[19:14] <smoser> which is what pbr says it does
[19:14] <harlowja> https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/version.py#L21
[19:14] <harlowja> others also have a 'NOVA_PACKAGE = None # OS distro package version suffix'
[19:14] <harlowja> or equivalent
[19:14] <harlowja> right, so semver + a prefix that is plugged into that (or equivalent) file
[19:15] <harlowja> https://github.com/openstack/taskflow/blob/master/taskflow/version.py
[19:15] <harlowja> and others
[19:15] <smoser> so i think theres 2 things i'm struggling with
[19:15] <smoser> a.) cloudinit, i would behvae like:
[19:15] <smoser>  release 0.7.X
[19:15] <smoser>  h... call taht : release 0.7.2
[19:16] <smoser>  then "open 0.7.3"
[19:16] <harlowja> right
[19:16] <harlowja> we can keep more of the status quo without pbr for that 0.7.x branch and tags (0.7.2)
[19:16] <smoser>  so at this point, python setup.py --version shows '0.7.3'
[19:17] <harlowja> right
[19:17] <smoser>  but then i'd do a REVPOSTFIX with a '~bzrXXX'' where XXX was the trunk
[19:17] <smoser> so that '~' means to dpkg "this is *less* than 0.7.3"
[19:17] <smoser> but on 2.0 branch right now:
[19:17] <smoser> $ python setup.py --version
[19:17] <smoser> 1.9.0.dev158
[19:17] <smoser> where:
[19:17] <harlowja> ya, the 2.0 branch is all weird right now with respect to version
[19:18] <harlowja> pbr is trying to calculate that, not sure why it picked 1.9
[19:18] <smoser> $ dpkg --compare-versions 1.0.0.dev1 gt 1.0.0 && echo dev is greater than tag || echo dev is less than tag
[19:18] <smoser> dev is greater than tag
[19:18] <smoser> well, it picked 1.9 because its in setup.cfg
[19:18] <harlowja> ah
[19:18] <harlowja> k
[19:19] <smoser> so the issue rigth now is that if i were to use the pbr symantics exactly as the are, my released versions would be versioned smaller than my development versions leading up to the release.
[19:19] <harlowja> right
[19:20] <harlowja> i think we just need to make sure pbr has its deb version command exposed
[19:20] <harlowja> like https://review.openstack.org/#/c/196191/
[19:20] <harlowja> pretty sure it knows how to generate a deb version correctly
[19:20] <harlowja> just might need to be exposed as --deb-version command or something
[19:21] <harlowja> if not, we need to bug pbr authors
[19:21] <harlowja> https://github.com/openstack-dev/pbr/blob/master/pbr/version.py#L231 exists
[19:21] <harlowja> likely just needs to be expoed
[19:21] <harlowja> *just like the rpm one that i exposed
[19:22] <harlowja> lifeless is also trying/working on getting pbr adopted by pip, so it will probably be everywhere soon
[19:22] <harlowja> * https://review.openstack.org/#/c/219468/
[19:23] <harlowja> so with 'debian_string(self):' exposed, i think that will do the right sorting for u
[19:25] <harlowja> i can propose that smoser
[19:26] <harlowja> *pretty much same as 196191
[19:26] <smoser> all it does is ~ right ?
[19:26] <smoser> in my reading ?
[19:27] <harlowja> seems like it
[19:27] <harlowja> https://github.com/openstack-dev/pbr/blob/master/pbr/version.py#L311
[19:28] <harlowja> if its busted and/or not working, can just tweak pbr
[19:28] <smoser> k. i can work somethign together.
[19:28] <harlowja> okie
[19:28] <smoser> so then i wonder..
[19:28] <smoser> how does it count "commits since last tag" or whatevre it does to get 'devX'
[19:29] <harlowja> ya, that logic i'm not sure of
[19:29] <smoser> i just dont know how to figure which tag to go from
[19:29] <harlowja> https://github.com/openstack-dev/pbr/blob/master/pbr/packaging.py#L636
[19:30] <harlowja> https://github.com/openstack-dev/pbr/blob/master/pbr/packaging.py#L516
[19:30] <harlowja> but some pbr folks can probably better describe that (vs reading code)
[19:31] <smoser> well thats magic
[19:31] <smoser> git describe
[19:31] <harlowja> magic might need better docs, not sure
[19:33] <harlowja> other option, not use PBR, just increment the numbers ourself
[19:34] <smoser> i'm ok to use pbr on 2.0 and maybe use 'git-describe' which seems mostly functional on 0.7.X
[19:34] <harlowja> k
[19:34] <smoser> from git-describe:
[19:35] <harlowja> git describe
[19:35] <harlowja> 0.7.6-443-g23d4282
[19:35] <harlowja> interesting
[19:35] <smoser> Otherwise, it suffixes the tag name with the number of additional commits on top of the tagged object and he abbreviated object name of the most recent commit.
[19:35] <smoser> right
[19:35] <harlowja> thats https://github.com/harlowja/cloud-init/tree/0.7.x-fixed-final
[19:35] <smoser> but what is that g23d ?
[19:36] <harlowja> commit 23d4282b1fd8aee9ecf372435b10185dfb59731d
[19:36] <smoser> as 'git show' doesnt show it. how can i turn that into something useful if i was curious
[19:36] <harlowja> last commit
[19:36] <harlowja> g(commit)
[19:36] <smoser> a. g
[19:36] <smoser> right.
[19:36] <smoser> duh.
[19:36] <harlowja> maybe leave off g23d4282
[19:36] <harlowja> :-/
[19:36] <smoser> it doesnt hurt.
[19:36] <harlowja> k
[19:37] <smoser> her. i'll get something .thanks for patience. let me poke
[19:37] <harlowja> cool beans
[19:37] <smoser> we're even lucky
[19:37] <harlowja> ??
[19:38] <harlowja> we're always lucky
[19:38] <harlowja> lol
[19:38] <smoser> oh shoot. its not.
[19:38] <smoser> i thought the 443 was lucky enough to be > trunk's revno
[19:38] <harlowja> its ssl port
[19:38] <harlowja> lol
[19:38] <smoser> right
[19:39] <smoser> as a tribute to sabdfl
[19:39] <harlowja> distance to 0.7.6?
[19:39] <harlowja> but 443 changes seems like alot
[19:39] <smoser> well, my thought was that i could just grab that (0.7.6-443) and turn it into 0.7.7~dev443
[19:40] <smoser> $ git log --format=oneline 0.7.6.. | wc -l
[19:40] <smoser> 443
[19:41] <harlowja> ya
[19:41] <harlowja> so i guess thats how it got that
[19:42] <harlowja> but u want it since commits for all time right?
[19:43] <smoser> well, that would work . but this is easy enough.
[19:43] <harlowja> ya
[19:43] <harlowja> tell it to use first commit
[19:43] <harlowja> *tell git describe
[19:43] <smoser> so here is plan
[19:43] <smoser> i'll git a shell snippet
[19:44] <harlowja> after/before https://github.com/harlowja/cloud-init/tree/0.7.x-fixed-final is resynced -> stackforge?
[19:44] <harlowja> *or other repo that openstack-infra needs to sync
[19:44] <harlowja> to replace https://github.com/stackforge/cloud-init/tree/0.7.x
[19:44] <harlowja> ^ which is missing commits...
[19:47] <smoser> let me work out what iw ant to do
[19:47] <smoser> and then you can help me. k ?
[19:50] <harlowja> k
[19:50] <harlowja> sure boss
[19:50] <harlowja> sputnik13 get er all done
[19:50] <harlowja> thx
[19:50] <harlowja> lol
[20:30] <smoser> harlowja, http://paste.ubuntu.com/12534794/
[20:35] <smoser> i think i'm happy with that for those tools.
[20:35] <smoser> and seems to retain bzr support also.
[21:01] <smoser> harlowja, http://paste.ubuntu.com/12535144/
[21:01] <smoser> i like that better.
[21:02] <smoser> that is on top of your lp:~harlowja/cloud-init/cloud-init-git-tarball-make
[21:03] <smoser> at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/wily/cloud-init/wily/view/head:/debian/README.source#L43
[21:04] <smoser> the 'improt a new snapshot' i'll have to adjust to work with git.
[21:04] <smoser> but the tools/read-version --dev will be useful.
[21:06] <harlowja> smoser cool, works for me
[21:06] <harlowja> i'm all good with whatever u are good with :-P
[21:56] <bdx> smoser: how's it goin?
[21:58] <bdx> smoser: does cloud-init using nocloud provider preform any /etc/ssh/sshd_config modifications by default in trusty cloudimg?
[23:28] <sputnik13> sooooo...  where do I submit patches bzr or git? :)
[23:28] <sputnik13> smoser harlowja ^
[23:29] <harlowja> ummmm
[23:29] <sputnik13> I know your answer already
[23:29] <sputnik13> :)
[23:29] <harlowja> :-P


[01:54] <len__> Does anyone know why some apps show up as running apps in the session manager, and some don't?
[01:55] <len__> If they don't show up in that list they can't be saved with the session.
[01:55] <len__> unless hardcoded in a autostartup section instead.
[01:56] <len__> I want sublime text sessions to be saved, but they are invisible to the session manager for some reason.
[01:56] <len__> Chrome/Chromium don't show up either, but Firefox shows up fine.
[01:57] <len__> I don't get what is going on.
[01:58] <len__> Everything shows up fine in xfce's task manager though--it is only the session manager that has selective vision.
[02:59] <holstein> Guest69247: where did you get sublime text? AFAIK, its not in the repos
[03:00] <holstein> maybe the creators can tell you how to include it
[03:00] <holstein> you could be talking about non repo packages
[03:13] <Guest69247> Directly from Sublime Text.  It's not really a ST issue though.
[03:14] <Guest69247> Seems as if it is another case of Gnome devs pissing on standards and interoperability and stripping out XSMP support in place of their own way.
[03:14] <Guest69247> All KDE apps are detected.
[03:15] <holstein> !language | Guest69247
[03:17] <Guest69247> Sublime text is some kind of mystery hybred using gtk and custom build libs.
[03:17] <holstein> Guest69247: its not in the repos, AFAIK
[03:17] <Guest69247> No.  It is self contained.  Runs on all distros.
[03:18] <Guest69247> Blazing fast too.
[03:18] <holstein> Guest69247: sure.. so, its a stand alone binary, that the system isnt aware of.. theres your answer
[03:18] <holstein> you didnt install it, for the system to be aware of it.. that can be related to what you are asking about
[03:19] <Guest69247> No.  I'm not just talking about sublime.
[03:19] <holstein> Guest69247: sure.. me to
[03:19] <Guest69247> Gnome has recently been stripping xsmp (x session management protocol).
[03:20] <Guest69247> All apps that don't show up are gtk-based
[03:20] <holstein> Guest69247: and, also, the ones you mention are not in the repo
[03:21] <holstein> Guest69247: but, if you feel you have a bug with gnome, i say, report it
[03:21] <Guest69247> It is not a bug.  It is intentional.
[03:21] <Guest69247> They don't care about anyone not running gnome.
[03:21] <Guest69247> rolling their own
[03:22] <Guest69247> instead of following standards
[03:22] <holstein> Guest69247: cool.. sounds like you know what the issue is, then.. let a volunteer know if you have a support question.. we can use #xubuntu-offtopic for chatting about gnome
[03:23] <Guest69247> Well, I didn't know when I first posted, but researched duing the interim to find out code was intentionally removed.
[03:33] <Hudsonkem_> hello?
[03:33] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: yes..
[03:33] <holstein> to recap, you are missing the cursor.. its invisible
[03:33] <holstein> http://paste.ubuntu.com/10893230/
[03:34] <Hudsonkem_> yes..
[03:34] <holstein> you are up to date with upgrades, and using *some* unknown version of xubuntu.. would you like to state that for the volunteers?
[03:35] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: what i want you to do is, note this.. http://itsfoss.com/invisible-mouse-cursor-ubuntu-1310/ and try it next time it happens, please
[03:35] <holstein> gsettings set org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.cursor active false
[03:35] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: try that in tty, next time it happens..
[03:35] <holstein> !tty
[03:35] <holstein> or, in the GUI terminal, if you can get to it without the cursor
[03:35] <Hudsonkem_> ok
[03:37] <Hudsonkem_> so I know the basics of linux system. And you will reproduce the inssue now and try it
[03:37] <Hudsonkem_> I will*
[03:37] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: how?
[03:37] <Hudsonkem_> restart
[03:38] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: in what way to you make it happen? you stated it just happens, randomly? what do you do to make it happen?
[03:38] <Hudsonkem_> yes
[03:38] <Hudsonkem_> just reboot or turn off the computer, when I turn on it have this inssue
[03:39] <holstein> regardless of our misunderstanding each other.. do you understand the suggestion?
[03:39] <Hudsonkem_> but I noticed when load screen work with correct resolution the cursor works and when not it not
[03:40] <holstein> i also was thinking GPU driver related
[03:40] <holstein> with a dual GPU. nvidia ion, for example
[03:41] <Hudsonkem_> so. I am not installed drivers because I am using xubuntu 15.04 but it not happining on 14.10 without drivers
[03:42] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: you have not installed what drivers? the nvidia ones?
[03:42] <Hudsonkem_> intel "01.org"
[03:42] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: so the above fix doesnt address it?
[03:43] <Hudsonkem_> the driver not realised to my xubuntu version
[03:43] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: what driver?
[03:43] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: have you tried the fix? if its a driver issue, as i already suggested, the fix wont address that
[03:44] <holstein> i asked what drivers you have for the GPU before
[03:44] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: can i please help you find a native language channel?
[03:44] <Hudsonkem_> yes
[03:45] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: well, do share what language you speak, and id be glad to assist with that
[03:45] <Hudsonkem_> intel hda driver
[03:46] <Hudsonkem_> português PT
[03:46] <Hudsonkem_> português BR
[03:47] <holstein> !pt
[03:47] <Hudsonkem_> it support xubuntu too?
[03:48] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: xubuntu *is* ubuntu
[03:48] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: its likely slow/dead, and you'll nead to email someone...
[03:48] <Hudsonkem_> but different Desktop "xfce"
[03:48] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: otherwise, try the fix i suggested, and let me know
[03:48] <holstein> Hudsonkem_: xubuntu *is* ubuntu
[06:01] <rayduf> completely disable sleep/suspend mode...how?
[06:07] <mantys89> hello, is there any way change orage calendar theme to match numix color scheme???
[06:19] <eikon81g> Hey all.. Just stopping in for a quick question..
[06:19] <eikon81g> I was thinking about doing the upgrade to 15.04 should I just take the extra time and do a fresh install?
[06:21] <eikon81g> anyone experienced crazyness outside of the notes "bug"
[06:22] <mantys89> fresh install is better, but before that you can do system backup with clonezilla...
[06:23] <eikon81g> gotcha. I was thinking the same thing.. I've tweaked this install so much Idk if I will get it back how I like it so I'm squeemish..
[06:23] <eikon81g> lol
[06:25] <mantys89> xubuntu 15.04 have some bugs with lightdm-gtk-greeter, but nothing serious...
[06:28] <eikon81g> ok well that's good I have been using the terminal pm commands to suspend and reboot etc.
[06:28] <eikon81g> I don't mess with lightdm much just initial login
[06:31] <mantys89> lightdm-gtk-greeter have some problems with theming, with numix and other themes, top panel looks weird...
[06:32] <eikon81g> Ahh
[06:32] <eikon81g> well ty for the heads up..
[12:47] <xubuntu29w> hi there, trying to upgrade from xubuntu 14.10 to 15.04 using the software updater. When I click on the Upgrade ... button the software updater just quits
[12:47] <cfhowlett> xubuntu29w, try from terminal and observe error messages.  sudo do-release-upgrade
[12:48] <xubuntu29w> when I start the software updater on the command line, I get: Error executing command as another user: Not authorized
[12:49] <cfhowlett> xubuntu29w, self-explanatory ... use your system admin account
[12:51] <xubuntu29w> hmm, that's weird. The sw updater comes up every day and asks me If I want to install updates. If I select yes, it asks me for my password and goes ahead and installs the updates. Why does the upgrade process behave differently?
[12:52] <cfhowlett> xubuntu29w, permissions ...
[12:53] <xubuntu29w> doing the upgrade no using  sudo do-release-upgrade, but wondering why sw updater couldn't it just issue the same command?
[12:54] <xubuntu29w> thanx for your help, btw :-)
[12:55] <cfhowlett> xubuntu29w, I'd *guess* your current user is not authorized to perform an OS install.  upgrading currently install software should require fewer privileges?
[12:58] <xubuntu29w> I haven't done anything special with my user. I was created during the install of xubuntu. And the same user was able to sudo do-release-upgrade on the command line, so why shouldn't he be able to do it in the UI? And even if the user didn't have the required premission, the UI should info the user about this, and not offer an upgrade button, which silently fails.
[12:58] <xubuntu29w> did you upgrade already?
[12:59] <cfhowlett> xubuntu29w, no.  I only run LTS so I'm good until next year.
[13:00] <cfhowlett> xubuntu29w, as for the  error, yeah, that sounds like a bug.
[13:00] <xubuntu29w> :-) ok. I was just wondering how the upgrade button behaves for other users. I'd consider the current behaviour a bug.
[13:01] <cfhowlett> agreed
[13:02] <xubuntu29w> glad, we agree :-) downloading of new version is comple. It's happily upgrading the packages now. hope it still works after reboot
[14:21] <deltaray> After upgrading to 15.04, I'm having a strange problem with screenlocks.
[14:22] <deltaray> When I lock the screen, it does lock the screen, but it just shows a blank off-white screen.
[14:22] <deltaray> To get back in, I have to click the mouse and then I see the password dialogue.
[14:22] <deltaray> Anyone else having this issue?
[14:22] <deltaray> Don't see any mention of it in the last month on a web search.
[14:23] <brainwash> deltaray: multi monitor setup?
[14:25] <brainwash> bug 1426664
[14:36] <pjotter> Hello everyone. I am experiencing a weird problem in Xubuntu 12.04 that I can't find any solution for.
[14:36] <pjotter> It concerns the placing and size of some of the popup menu's of the panel
[14:36] <pjotter> There are some applications that sometimes generate popups that seem to be mislplaced or wrongly sized.
[14:37] <pjotter> This happens a lot when the content of the popup is actively changed.
[14:38] <pjotter> For instance the network icon.. If I disable the network, some of the options in the popup will vanish, causing the popup to be smaller. If I then click on the network icon, the popup is displayed hovering above the panel
[14:38] <pjotter> However, clicking the icon again will show a correct popup
[14:39] <pjotter> Does anybody know any sollution to this? Is it a bug in xfce4?
[14:40] <brainwash> is your panel placed on the bottom?
[14:40] <pjotter> Yes it is
[14:40] <brainwash> then it is a known bug
[14:40] <brainwash> but there is no solution
[14:41] <pjotter> Ok. Do you know by what keywords I can find this bug? I have been searching but haven't found any reference to this.
[14:42] <brainwash> bug 965953
[14:42] <pjotter> brainwash: Will puuting the panel on top solve the issue?
[14:42] <brainwash> worth a try
[14:43] <pjotter> I just did... it appears to be working
[14:43] <brainwash> you could remove the indicator plugin from your panel config
[14:43] <brainwash> that way, the network applet will use the classic tray icon
[14:44] <pjotter> Well, I'd rather not... need those on a regular basis, so
[14:44] <brainwash> yeah, it would also remove the sound indicator (well, any of the unity indicators)
[14:44] <pjotter> O wait... you mean to say that the problem is caused by the indicator plugin?
[14:45] <brainwash> not directly, but the indicators themself seem to be the cause
[14:46] <brainwash> the indicator plugin is used to display these indicators
[14:46] <pjotter> Yes, the xfce4-indicator-plugin
[14:46] <brainwash> you can temporary remove it from your panel config
[14:46] <pjotter> What if I remove this thing from the panel? Will I still be able to see some of the icons that normally reside in there?
[14:47] <brainwash> test it
[14:47] <brainwash> it can be easily readded
[14:47] <pjotter> I'll do that... just a moment
[14:47] <brainwash> you may need to restart the panel with xfce4-panel -r
[15:22] <Guest96557> i bet this has been asked a couple of times, when is it possible to do an upgrade from 14.10 to 15.04 with the integrated updater, since even update-manager -d does nothing
[15:26] <cq-aux> hi I've deleted something important > I can't control my laptop screen shutting actions
[15:26] <cq-aux> all I can remember removing was lightdm
[15:27] <cq-aux> now I'd like to shut the lid and have it keep running
[15:27] <cq-aux> but I've stuffed that up somehow
[15:38] <pleia2> Guest96557: you don't want to do it with -d, since 15.04 has been released and development on the next version hasn't begun, the update-manager should pick up the upgrade on its own (it does for me on all my systems)
[15:38] <Guest96557> pleia2, i tried that without the "-d" as well
[15:39] <pleia2> Guest96557: strange, might need to manually `apt-get update` on the command line if you've disabled that
[15:39] <Guest96557> i will try that
[15:39] <Guest96557> brb
[15:39] <Guest96557> ty
[18:18] <TimeVirus> I'm beginning to believe my wifi driver is crap (over time seems to be getting worse) If I sudo apt-get install firmware-b43-installer will it over-write what is there currently?
[18:18] <Unit193> I don't remember how the postinst script runs, but you should still have the tarball and fw-cutter, so why not just re-extract?
[18:19] <holstein> TimeVirus: you can remove what you installed before, to make sure.. you can also usually "get away" with adding those in a live iso, and testing.. personally, i'll just pull them out, and swap the hardware, since, i find the cost so low to replace, and give me a much easier time in the OS i choose to use
[18:19] <holstein> though, i agree with Unit193 ^
[18:20] <holstein> personally, i'll try all options i can.. even the windows driver in ndiswrapper.. i'll test a bit, and then, replace the hardware if i cant find something acceptably stable
[18:26] <TimeVirus> I sure hope I dont run into this crud with intel 6205 wifi
[18:27] <holstein> when you have the opportunity, buy with linux support in mind
[18:29] <TimeVirus> intel is not ?
[18:30] <holstein> TimeVirus: anything can be.. intel just makes hardware.. if someone, such as intel, specifically provides linux support, thats great
[18:30] <TimeVirus> intel make drivers as well as hw, no?
[18:31] <holstein> TimeVirus: ask them.. they (intel) typically support linux.. but, if they dont, they dont.. and, with some hardware they dont
[18:31] <TimeVirus> dont the maunafcturers of some given hardware make the drivers?
[18:31] <holstein> the issue is, just buying some hardware, of any manufacturer, and expecting linux to "just work"
[18:32] <TimeVirus> so I need to learn how to write my own driver. But that is not legal most of the time, right?
[18:32] <holstein> i find it helpful to, before purchase, do some research, and see where the linux support is, if at all. and try to make sure i can return the hardware if it doenst work for my needs
[18:32] <holstein> TimeVirus: legal? to write software?
[18:32] <TimeVirus> drivers
[18:32] <TimeVirus> firmware
[18:32] <holstein> TimeVirus: it would likely be illegal to see a driver like that, in some way
[18:32] <holstein> but, you wont make a "better" driver than what is already out there
[18:32] <holstein> the issue is, maybe, as in your case, thats the "best" driver option there is
[18:33] <holstein> linux isnt doing anything to prevent broadcom from making a driver.. but, if they dont, and they also dont provide information that allows a community member, or another company to, then, the support can be with compromise, or non-existent
[18:33] <TimeVirus> so were is the DB that would tell me if some given hw has linux driver?
[18:33] <holstein> TimeVirus: ideally, each manufacturer would provide that
[18:34] <holstein> TimeVirus: and, they actually do.. its just empty for most, since, they dont provide *any* linux support
[18:34] <holstein> TimeVirus: all im saying is, it can be beneficial to ask the question *before* getting hardware.. and expect linux support from the manufacturer
[18:34] <TimeVirus> ask who?
[18:34] <holstein> TimeVirus: the creator of the hardware
[18:35] <holstein> TimeVirus: linux is completely open. .anyone can choose to support it.. if they dont, then, it can be problematic for the end user trying to use it
[18:37] <holstein> all im suggesting is, take the responsiblilty on. try and not approach it like "well, im going to buy something that specifically states support for windows and OSX on the box, and i certainly hope linux supports it".. take a step back at that point, and check for a linux supported device
[18:37] <bazhang> device id ubuntu <--- thats the search term I use
[18:38] <bazhang> if the only listing are in hindi on a google search, then dont buy it
[18:38] <holstein> yup. or "linux".. or "debian".. all of that can be relevant.. but, its handy to do that before purchase, or make sure you can return the device
[18:38] <holstein> since, you are not promised linux support..
[18:39] <holstein> the chipsets can change, as well.. all the manufacturer has to do is provide the drivers they promise.. and if the chipset changes, you *could* read, certain device works in ubuntu.. but, the *same* device doenst for you and others
[18:39] <holstein> being specific with the device ID helps with that ^
[18:39] <bazhang> even companies that DO write device drivers, like certain NIC devices, dont always do a good job of it
[18:39] <holstein> yup.. :/
[18:40] <holstein> i find, its "better" with ones that just provide information
[18:40] <bazhang> ralink comes to mind
[18:41] <bazhang> research first always
[18:41] <holstein> sometimes, you get handed hardware.. and thats fine. but, you cant expect magic from linux.. linux is not able to facilitate its support onto all devices
[18:42] <holstein> those companies pay folks to make and test drivers and software for the operating systems they promise support for.. we take that responsibility on ourselves when we run another OS on the hardware and support it ourselves
[20:04] <oddi> hi, is there a non pae iso of xubuntu available for download?
[20:05] <Unit193> There are only PAE and 64bit images.
[20:05] <oddi> guess i'm stuck with 12.04 then :/
[20:06] <oddi> thanks anyways
[20:06] <Unit193> oddi: What processor/
[20:07] <oddi> 2 sec, let me check
[20:07] <oddi> pentium m
[20:07] <Unit193> There's a chance you can use forcepae=1
[20:08] <oddi> i'll give it a try, thanks :)
[20:08] <Unit193> Good luck.
[20:12] <oddi> it worked, thanks alot
[20:12] <Unit193> Great.
[21:06] <xubuntu93w> Hi all! I need some help after upgrading to Vivid Vervet. Switching to Console mode (CTRL-ALT-F1, CTRL-ALT-F2...) is no longer working, as screns stay completely black. Any ideas please?
[21:29] <sky1215> hello  everyone i'm new to xubuntu
[21:29] <sky1215> so far i like it
[21:29] <knome> glad to hear
[21:30] <sky1215> i like it better than regular ubuntu. It seems lighter and faster
[21:30] <sky1215> so is this the official support channel?
[21:30] <sky1215> for tech support or is this general chat channel?
[21:30] <knome> as the topic says, this is the support channel
[21:31] <knome> general chatter at #xubuntu-offtopic
[21:31] <sky1215> oh sorry didn't see that
[21:31] <sky1215> ok
[21:31] <sky1215> thnx
[21:32] <sky1215> how can i register my nick?
[21:33] <knome> !register | sky1215
[21:34] <sky1215> ok thanks so much
[22:54] <yousir> How do i change the "Whisker Menu" style, to the more minimal one, without the search bar?
[22:56] <Unit193> Remove whisker from the panel, add "Applications menu"
[22:57] <yousir> Unit193:Thanks dude! :)
[22:58] <Unit193> Sure thing.
[23:01] <pjotter> could someone explain: What is the difference between the panel notification area and the xfce4-indicator-plugin? Why do some icons appear in the notification area and others as an icon in the indicator area?
[23:02] <Unit193> Because some are indicators, some are tray icons.
[23:03] <deltaray> brainwash: By the way, it was the bug with the multi monitor setup. Sorry, got called away from the discussion.
[23:03] <pjotter> Ok, so what exactly is an 'indicator'?
[23:04] <pjotter> I use, for instance, the app. 'radiotray'. If I run it, it appears as an icon in the indicator area?
[23:06] <pjotter> But if I run the taskmanager, it appears in the notification area.
[23:34] <knome> pjotter, some applications provide indicators, others tray icons
[23:35] <knome> pjotter, they look and feel more or less the same for the end user
[23:52] <pjotter> knome. Yes, indeed. Hence, my question. Thanks for the answer.