[02:05] <jdeslip> Howdy all
[02:05] <faina> hello
[02:06] <jdeslip> I'm glad this week is a short one :)
[02:07] <faina> :)
[02:07] <faina> I keep forgetting.
[02:07] <jdeslip> faina: then it will be a nice surprise when you remember
[02:08] <faina> hehe
[02:17] <faina> so weird writing python code in a proportional font...
[02:19] <nuboon2age_> i can't understand why the agenda didn't have the discussion of blocking indexing of our irc log.  somehow it didn't get discussed last time either.  so i just added it.
[02:19] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: I think we were expecting you to add it :)
[02:20] <jdeslip> grantbow: do you use irc on your G1?  I can't find any client that works with T-Mobile.  It seems freenode requires sasl from T-Mobile because of spam or something.
[02:20] <nuboon2age_> okay, but since there have been *so many* people asking for it, why not just add it?  i don't get it.
[02:21] <Eureka> wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10November21 edited
[02:33] <faina> I was able to log into IRC over T-mobile... though I was using a n900 and turned on SSL
[02:34] <faina> wait... no I'm logged into my home network.
[02:37] <Eureka> wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10November21 edited
[02:37] <jdeslip> faina: when I try with ssl, I get an ssl handshake error :(
[02:38] <faina> Once I switched to t-mobile it wasn't working for me either.
[02:39] <faina> I wonder if t-mobile is blocking the ports... I've heard that a lot of botnets use IRC for command and control
[02:40] <faina> (from my works network security team)
[02:40] <faina> is there any vpn software for the G1?
[02:40] <jdeslip> From my Googling of the issue - it seems freenode actually block T-Mobile (or requires SASL) because of spamming or something
[02:40] <jdeslip> faina; probably
[02:41] <jdeslip> nuboon2age: Would you mind if I changed the indexing item to the end of the meeting - it is likely to have the most discussion
[02:42] <jdeslip> I am hoping we will get through the other three items in relatively quick succession
[02:42] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: i don't mind as long as we get to it
[02:45] <Eureka> wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10November21 edited
[02:45] <faina> I need to go ... good luck with your meeting.
[02:57] <nuboon2age_>  checking settings...
[02:57] <nuboon2age_> again
[02:58] <pleia2> evening everyone
[03:00] <jdeslip> evening pleia2
[03:00] <jledbetter> howdy
[03:00] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: regarding agenda items - the person who adds them is the one who leads the discussion at the meeting, which is why we request the person who wants it be the one who adds it
[03:00] <pleia2> so we can keep track of who added what and who should be leading discussion on each agenda item
[03:00] <pleia2> anyway, meeting time :)
[03:01] <pleia2> agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10November21
[03:01] <pleia2> who all is here for the meeting?
[03:01] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: gotcha
[03:01] <jledbetter> o/
[03:02]  * dragon raises his hand
[03:02] <jtatum> \o
[03:02] <jdeslip> HERE
[03:02] <akk> o/
[03:02] <nuboon2age_> o/
[03:02] <philipballew> here
[03:02] <pleia2> ok, let's start off with any announcements of upcoming events
[03:03] <pleia2> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california just shows a couple ubuntu hours in lake forest
[03:03] <pleia2> presumably we'll be adding the regularly occurring ones for december, observing holidays, as the weeks go on
[03:03] <pleia2> anything else announcement-wise?
[03:04] <nuboon2age_> i've talked to people about doing something like an Ubuntu hour in Santa Cruz but haven't settled on a time/place yet
[03:04] <MarkDude> Penguin Hour
[03:04] <nuboon2age_> or Lindependence Hour or something like that
[03:04] <jdeslip> nuboon2age: involving Larry/
[03:04] <jdeslip> ?
[03:05] <nuboon2age_> talked to Karsten, lcafiero in particular
[03:05] <pleia2> great, so you'll update the resources with announcements once you have the details nailed down
[03:05] <nuboon2age_> i've also been seeking a location in Palo Alto or Menlo Park, but haven't settled on a location yet
[03:06] <nuboon2age_> yes'm pleia2
[03:06] <pleia2> ok, we can probably discuss ubuntu hours further during that portion of the agenda :)
[03:06] <pleia2> Agenda item 1: Discuss hosting for Ubuntu California Website: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Website
[03:07] <pleia2> I posted to the list earlier this week and unfortunately there wasn't any discussion aside from jtatum's reply (thanks jtatum!)
[03:07] <jdeslip> If I remember last meeting, we were going to vote on hosting options this meeting.  Do we want to put that off for further discussion?
[03:07] <nuboon2age_> on Dec 4th there's a peace Fair/holiday fair in San Jose where i'll be with Cameron S, repping for FLOSS
[03:08] <akk> I thought jtatum's comments made sense and didn't have anything useful to add.
[03:08] <jdeslip> It seems to me it basically comes down to a choice between pleia2's linode option and aaditya's appengine option.  Is taht fair?
[03:08] <jtatum> jdeslip, i don't think we have to decide.. can do both
[03:09] <pleia2> jdeslip: yeah
[03:09] <pleia2> I spoke with jtatum briefly at the mt view ubuntu hour and we thought it might be acceptable to go with the linode for the basic site and then if we wanted to build some spiffy applications or other dynamic content (aside from planet and blog) we can go with appengine
[03:09] <akk> It's confusing to have multiple sites, though ... we already sort of have that confusion.
[03:09] <dragon> jtatum: what'd be the setup if we do both?
[03:09] <akk> Though yeah, using another site for fancy appengine stuff would be okay, just don't have multiple user-visible landing pages.
[03:09] <jtatum> main site links to app engine apps… i think that's the general setup of appengine
[03:10] <eps> It looks like my suggestion to look at SFCCP fell through the cracks.
[03:10] <pleia2> essentially the ubuntu-california.org site will be a landing page for all resources (wiki, forums, mailing list, etc)
[03:10] <dragon> jtatum: that way we'd end up having two websites, unless we do iframes.
[03:10] <pleia2> eps: we asked you to email us the details so we could add it to the wiki, you never did :(
[03:11] <jledbetter> ohnoiframes
[03:11] <eps> I'm totally swamped and I can't edit the Wiki directly.
[03:11] <pleia2> there were a couple ideas that people didn't follow up with
[03:11] <jtatum> dragon, a lot of sites link to subdomains that you don't think of as two sites… :) ebay, yahoo, amazon… et
[03:11] <jtatum> c
[03:11] <pleia2> eps: unfortunately we need *someone* to get the details for us so we can review it, I don't know anything about this proposal
[03:11] <dragon> jtatum: they do, but we'll have to make sure they share the same look-and-feel.
[03:11] <jtatum> keep the header and footer the same and nobody will think they're different sites
[03:11] <eps> SFCCP - www.sfccp.net - you can read about it on their web site.
[03:12] <eps> There are a number of advantages: (1) you can do pretty much anything you want in terms of software
[03:12] <dragon> jtatum: in that case, why would we even need it in two places?
[03:12] <pleia2> eps: it's not just simple hosting details we need, we need to know who is handling the relationship, administrative options, hardware, etc
[03:12] <eps> (2) you can have as many or as few administrators as you feel appropriate
[03:12] <pleia2> eps: can you reply to the mailing list thread?
[03:13] <jtatum> dragon: just saying we don't have to scrap appengine just because the main domain is hosted somewhere else
[03:13] <eps> (3) you'd be hosting Ubuntu *California* in *California*, not some embarrassing out-of-the-way place
[03:13] <jtatum> eps: linode is in california
[03:13] <jdeslip> so, it appears we are not ready for a vote, eh?
[03:13] <dragon> jtatum: sounds reasonable
[03:13] <eps> pleia2: no, I'm replying here, where the conversation is logged, and everyone gets to see it
[03:13] <pleia2> jdeslip: apparently not :(
[03:13]  * pleia2 sighs
[03:13] <jtatum> surprised at all this discussion when *nobody* replied on the mailing list.
[03:13] <dragon> eps: I'm unable to follow your proposal.
[03:13] <jtatum> s/surprised/disappointed/.
[03:13] <pleia2> jtatum: +1
[03:13] <jledbetter> oh no he didn't
[03:14] <jdeslip> pleia2: how about we start a mailing list thread asking for specific (and detailed recommendations) which we can compile into another voting thread.
[03:14] <MarkDude> eps does have a point
[03:14] <eps> I've previously explained my problem with the mailing list
[03:14] <MarkDude> Is that not one of the intents of logging?
[03:14] <jdeslip> i.e. the only responses to the thread should be complete proposals
[03:14] <MarkDude> So others can see it?
[03:14] <akk> Anyone can see replies on the mailing list.
[03:15] <jdeslip> akk: agreed
[03:15] <pleia2> MarkDude: we've always logged meetings
[03:15] <eps> Well, if you've already made your decision, and you're just recruiting people to ratify it, we can do that.
[03:15] <nuboon2age_> btw, here's the announcement for the Peace Fair where Cameron Spitzer and i'l be repping for FLOSS on Dec 4th,  http://www.sanjosepeace.org/article.php/20101108154316816
[03:15] <akk> That's a far more public way, because everyone can participate, not just people who are awake and logged in right now.
[03:15] <jdeslip> eps: No decision has been made - I quite frankly don't know what I'd vote for.
[03:15] <pleia2> eps: I appreciate your option, but we've been discussing this for months, 2 weeks ago we decided to get final proposals on the wiki, you made no effort since then to get us the details (not on irc, mailing list or wiki)
[03:16] <pleia2> we need to move forward at soem point
[03:16] <eps> The way I see it, there's no clear choice. Every option has advantages and disadvantages.
[03:16] <pleia2> until now, when we all thought our options were settled :(
[03:16] <eps> Then get the Wiki fixed. There's been a bug filed against moinmoin for longer than that.
[03:17] <pleia2> you could have emailed me (as I requested at the last meeting), or discussed it here
[03:17] <dragon> As far as I understand, we need to collect all the proposals on the wiki, not the mailing list. Why is mailing list in question at this point?
[03:17] <jdeslip> pleia2: eps: agreed we need to move forward.  I think taking complete/final proposals in a mailing list thread and then voting on them by December 4th would be a good way forward.
[03:17] <eps> I *am* discussing it here.
[03:17] <pleia2> eps: now, after we closed the time for propsals a week ago
[03:17] <pleia2> dragon: we're trying to get feedback from folks on the mailing list too
[03:18] <eps> I've brought this up before; the logs will back me up. I'm not springing anything on you at the last minute.
[03:18] <nuboon2age_> i have to say that *does* look like a good proposal. as are the others
[03:18] <pleia2> jdeslip: ok, so I'll send a pretty much identical post to the list as my one last week, with eps' additional option?
[03:18] <pleia2> eps' proposal is a colo, so we also need hardware details
[03:18] <jdeslip> eps: discussing it on this channel does not constitute have submited a proposal
[03:18] <dragon> pleia2: yes, but that's not required as long as the proposal is documented in one place and is easy enough to refer to and follow, correct?
[03:18] <pleia2> and who is donating it
[03:19] <eps> The main downside with my proposal is non-zero cost. If there's something you can get for free, you don't have to think about how you're going to pay for it.
[03:19] <jdeslip> pleia2: I think a similar email with the final/complete proposals from the wiki page would be good.  Making it clear that we are now seeking a vote.
[03:19] <pleia2> eps: think can you get that info this week?
[03:19] <eps> I have *zero* time to devote this week.
[03:19] <pleia2> jdeslip: ok
[03:19] <jdeslip> (as oppossed to further discussion)
[03:20] <pleia2> eps: how long do we need to wait for your full proposal?
[03:20]  * MarkDude is aware that logging has always happened for meetings.
[03:20] <pleia2> I don't mind waiting another week, but I'd really like to move forward on this soon
[03:20] <pleia2> as the plan was to decide tonight
[03:21] <jledbetter> pleia2, +1
[03:21] <eps> All I can do right now is make you aware this option exists. Everything you need to know is already online. You may need to solicit a hardware donation, which I can't coordinate.
[03:21] <pleia2> ok, well for each proposal we need someone who can take ownership of coordinating it
[03:21] <eps> Anyone can follow up on this.
[03:22] <jdeslip> eps: unfortunately that isn't really good enough :/  - if you (or anyone else) wants an option considered, you have to champion it
[03:22] <jledbetter> pleia2, And if someone can't then maybe that means we can vote tonight?
[03:22] <akk> If we're not going to have another proposal, does that mean we can vote tonight?
[03:22]  * akk high-fives jledbetter
[03:22] <jledbetter> boo yeah ;)
[03:22] <pleia2> +1
[03:22] <MarkDude> +1
[03:23] <jdeslip> I think a decision tonight would be fine, considering that nobody (except jtatum) had anything to add on the previous mailing list thread
[03:23] <pleia2> regarding using linode AND appengine - it would be similar to ubuntu-california.org planet.ubuntu-california.org gallery.ubuntu-california.org ... or for a live example, see: ubuntupennsylvania.org
[03:23] <dragon> I vote +1 for voting tonight if we don't have any more proposals to follow.
[03:23] <eps> I think you need to decide what your requirements really are before attempting to evaluate solutions. Otherwise, you're going to get stuck trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.
[03:23] <pleia2> I figure whatever appengine site we create it would be reallyneatthing.ubuntu-california.org
[03:24] <dragon> pleia2: such as www.ubuntu-california.org
[03:24] <jtatum> we can come up with a billion reasons to torpedo this OR we can do this NOW and get something online. i vote linode
[03:24] <pleia2> we already have california.ubuntuforums.org wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california.. etc
[03:24] <dragon> s/$/?/
[03:24] <jdeslip> eps: I take it you do not have plans to submit a complete/final proposal this week?  If not let's vote
[03:24] <pleia2> dragon: I think we need ubuntu-california.org and www.ubuntu-california.org to be the same site
[03:25] <jdeslip> I see three options being championed at this point with complete info on the wiki:
[03:25] <dragon> pleia2: agreed
[03:25] <nuboon2age_> i'd be okay with the idea of using linode for basic stuff and appengine for spiffy stuff
[03:25] <jdeslip> 1> 1. linode
[03:25] <jdeslip> 2. app-engine
[03:25] <jdeslip> 3. the linode-app-engine mix
[03:25] <pleia2> we should put canonical in the voting pot
[03:25] <jdeslip> 4. canonical
[03:25] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: +1
[03:25] <MarkDude> I wont be able to vote for the nogo on logging indexing for this channel- I need to run an errand. Please include my vote, I dont like the indexing :)
[03:26] <akk> Clarification: if we vote for linode that somehow precludes ever mixing in app-engine?
[03:26] <akk> I'm not sure what the difference is between 1 and 3.
[03:26] <pleia2> akk: no
[03:26] <nuboon2age_> ty MarkDude, i caught that.
[03:26]  * MarkDude might be aback in time :)
[03:26] <MarkDude> Resistance is not futile :D
[03:27] <pleia2> akk: I think voting 3 means from the get-go we consider app-engine in every decision as far as our applications
[03:27] <pleia2> so if we want a blog, we look at wordpress on linode and appengine options
[03:27] <pleia2> I'd really like an option other than gallery2 for photos, if appengine could do something cool with photos I'd love it
[03:28] <eps> I'm confused about something: the description of Option 3 says "free application hosting" while the Google App Engine site says $8-$1000/mo.
[03:28] <MarkDude> app engine +1. We are geeks, lets just not go for the simplest idea to implement
[03:28] <pleia2> eps: the 8-1000 is business hosting, we're using the free options
[03:28] <akk> Whereas if we vote for 1, we look at what runs on wordpress unless someone comes forward and says "Hey, there's this great appengine solution that you should consider too"?
[03:28] <akk> s/runs on wordpress/runs on linode/
[03:28] <pleia2> akk: yeah, I guess
[03:28] <dragon> I vote for 2. AppEngine
[03:29] <pleia2> we will do a formal vote in a few minutes
[03:29] <pleia2> MarkDude: we're not all geeks, that's part of the great thing about the ubuntu community :) and we use ubuntu, so shouldn't we host on a server that runs ubuntu?
[03:29] <dragon> pleia2: AppEngine runs on Ubuntu ;)
[03:30] <pleia2> ah, I didn't realize they released details like that
[03:30] <MarkDude> Well lets have an AOL style site then :)
[03:30] <MarkDude> Im just saying shiny is good for this particualr instance
[03:30] <pleia2> akk: is that slightly more clear?
[03:30] <jdeslip> Ok again:
[03:31] <jdeslip> 1. Linode - emphasis on wordpress / gallery2 apps
[03:31] <dragon> pleia2: they normally don't, but one of the officials ended up talking about it in a public meeting.
[03:31] <jdeslip> 2. Appengine hosting and apps
[03:31] <MarkDude> From what has been outlined the content wot be a blog, so eyecandy to attract people- like compiz is good
[03:31] <jdeslip> 3. Linode - but emphasis on appengine apps
[03:31] <jdeslip> 4. Canonoical
[03:31] <MarkDude> writing in fire is not useful, but it attracts people nonetheless :)
[03:32] <dragon> pleia2: I'd also like to propose the use of voting bot in this loco. I've seen it in action in other Ubuntu channels, though I'm unaware about its downsides.
[03:32] <pleia2> MarkDude: thanks, can you add design ideas at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Website/Design so we can keep track of your ideas?
[03:32] <pleia2> dragon: we can request mootbot be added here for meetings (I tend to like it)
[03:32] <pleia2> it does voting, as well as basic meeting minutes
[03:32] <dragon> +1 for having mootbot in -us-ca
[03:33] <nuboon2age_> +1
[03:33] <pleia2> any objections to moving forward with voting on hosting?
[03:33] <jdeslip> nope - lets do it
[03:33] <nuboon2age_> none here
[03:33]  * dragon grabs the buzzer and prepares to vote
[03:33] <jdeslip> I'm tallying
[03:33] <pleia2> ok
[03:33] <pleia2> 1. Linode - emphasis on wordpress / gallery2 apps
[03:33] <pleia2> +1
[03:33] <jtatum> +1
[03:34] <akk> +1
[03:34] <pleia2> (if you miss the option because you weren't paying attention, it's ok, you can nudge jdeslip to add you to whatever option)
[03:34] <dragon> sorry for the interruption, but wouldn't it be easier to let people type 1, 2, 3, or 4 instead of doing +1 to each option? Or are we allowing voting for more than one option?
[03:34] <nuboon2age_> if i could vote twice i'd vote for both #1 and #2 (and am fine with #3 also)
[03:35] <pleia2> dragon: I'd say we can vote for more than one option
[03:35] <pleia2> 2. Appengine hosting and apps
[03:35] <eps> +1
[03:35] <dragon> nuboon2age, isn't 3 a mix of 1 and 2? ;)
[03:35] <nuboon2age_> yes dragon. :-)
[03:35] <nuboon2age_> so mine would be +1 to #1 and +1 to #2
[03:36] <pleia2> dragon: fwiw, voting with mootbot is done the way I'm doing it, so getting people used to this method is probably good :)
[03:36] <dragon> ah gotcha
[03:36] <jdeslip> (so yes, you can vote twice)
[03:36] <pleia2> can everyone vote with +1 to make it easy for jdeslip to count? anymore for for option 2?
[03:37] <jdeslip> so far we have 1 with 4 votes and 2 with 2 votes
[03:37] <dragon> +1
[03:37] <pleia2> 3. Linode - but emphasis on appengine apps
[03:37] <jdeslip> (and again you can vote more than once - so if you voted for 2, you may consider voting here again)
[03:37] <jdeslip> +1
[03:38] <nuboon2age_> +1
[03:38] <pleia2> +1
[03:38] <dragon> +0.8
[03:38] <jdeslip> LOL
[03:38] <jtatum> +1
[03:39] <pleia2> 4. Canonoical
[03:39] <pleia2> -1
[03:39] <pleia2> hehe
[03:39] <pleia2> (sorry, I host some stuff there already and it's painful)
[03:39] <akk> -1
[03:39] <dragon> I didn't realize we could do -1 as well.
[03:39] <pleia2> dragon: well, not really
[03:39] <dragon> so it's technically +0
[03:39]  * eps will happily -1 #1
[03:39] <jdeslip> (I am not counting negative votes)
[03:40] <pleia2> dragon: yeah
[03:40] <dragon> eps: or +1 everything else
[03:40] <eps> dragon: nope
[03:41] <pleia2> #endvote
[03:41] <jdeslip> So, I counted 4 votes for #1, 3 votes for #2 and 4.8 votes for #3
[03:41] <pleia2> ok jdeslip, what's the verdict?
[03:41] <pleia2> ok, cool
[03:41] <dragon> One moment, please.
[03:41] <dragon> MarkDude said he wanted to vote for AppEngine, but then he left.
[03:42] <pleia2> ok, so 4, 4, 4.8
[03:42] <jdeslip> Either way, I think that leaves us #3 winning
[03:42] <nuboon2age_> looks that way.  where's the .8 from btw jdeslip?
[03:42] <dragon> can I take my 0.8 back? ;)
[03:42] <pleia2> Agenda item 2: Next steps for the California site
[03:42] <pleia2> I think we need to put a team together to work on this
[03:42] <dragon> Just kidding. Since it's a tie breaker, I'm fine with #3.
[03:43] <pleia2> since dragon and I put forward proposals, I think we're both shoe-ins
[03:43] <dragon> \o/
[03:43] <jdeslip> dragon: Thank you.
[03:43] <jdeslip> pleia2: agreed
[03:44] <pleia2> the team will need to sort out administrative access and discuss decisions to present to the team
[03:44] <eps> The next step is to take our logo, place a hard hat on the bear, and caption it "Under Construction"
[03:44] <jtatum> i would like to join the team.
[03:44] <jdeslip> Let's have pleia2 set something basic up on linode and then take app ideas requests and see how the can solved in app-engine
[03:45] <jledbetter> eps, Joke, right?
[03:45] <pleia2> eps, jdeslip +1 (although, under construction is a bit 1998 :))
[03:45] <eps> jledbetter: Of course. "That's so 90's."
[03:45] <jledbetter> whew
[03:45] <pleia2> I'll toss something basic up that we can review
[03:45] <pleia2> we also need to decide which domain to use
[03:45] <jledbetter> I second jtatum's nomination
[03:45] <akk> All sites are always under construction. That should be a given.
[03:45] <nuboon2age_> eps: btw, ty for bringing up the other possibility, now that you've made me aware of it i may take advantage of it for other things.
[03:46] <jdeslip> I.e. once the basic structure is in place, the interested folks can get together and see what apps (app-engine and elsewise) will solve the job best
[03:46] <pleia2> jtatum: welcome to the team :)
[03:46] <pleia2> jdeslip: sounds good
[03:47] <jdeslip> shall we move on.  I posted agenda item 3, but would like to defer it in order to save time.
[03:47] <pleia2> thanks jdeslip
[03:47] <pleia2> should we talk about the domain name at all?
[03:47] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: which one is #3?
[03:47] <jdeslip> I will talk to pleia2, nuboon2age privately to learn about planning a good Ubuntu Hour
[03:47] <pleia2> our options: ubuntu-us-ca.org ubuntu-california.org ubuntucalifornia.org
[03:48] <pleia2> -us-ca is a bit unusual, but teams throughout the country are kinda split on dash or no dash
[03:48] <pleia2> ubuntu-florida.org, ubuntupennsylvania.org
[03:48] <jdeslip> nuboon2age: it is the Ubuntu-Hour one.  I wanted to learn more about planning one in the East Bay, but I'll chat with you privately about that.
[03:48] <nuboon2age_> oh, even if we put it later i think #3 is valuable jdeslip
[03:48] <dragon> Once we have a design in place, I can attempt to replicate it on AppEngine and create a code repository for it. Any objections keeping it FOSS?
[03:48] <eps> I like ubuntu-california.org with the others redirecting appropriately.
[03:48] <pleia2> eps: me too
[03:48] <jdeslip> pleia2: can't we use all of them?
[03:49] <pleia2> jdeslip: we need an official one to stick on posters and make sure never expires
[03:49] <jdeslip> eps: +1
[03:49] <pleia2> erichammond also regged net/com for each (grantbow did -us-ca.org)
[03:49] <jdeslip> pleia2: then I personally prefer ubuntu-california
[03:49] <akk> ubuntu-california.org looks prettier as long as we also have ubuntucalifornia.org redirecting.
[03:49] <akk> (non-geeks sometimes get confused by hyphens in urls)
[03:49] <jdeslip> akk: +1
[03:49] <pleia2> yeah, currently all the domains redirect to our wiki
[03:49] <nuboon2age_> ubuntu-california.org looks good to me
[03:50] <jledbetter> akk +1
[03:50] <pleia2> ok, sounds like we go with ubuntu-california.org with everything redirecting to it
[03:50] <jdeslip> Any desenters?
[03:50] <eps> The closes we can come to "never" is a ten-year registration. This should be less expensive than annual renewal.
[03:50] <dragon> we're talking "ubuntu dash california dot org" vs "ubuntu california dot org". I vote for former being used and latter being redirected to former.
[03:50] <dragon> pleia2: +1
[03:50] <eps> s/closes/closest
[03:50] <jledbetter> hyphens in urls? icky
[03:51] <jdeslip> It seems unanimous
[03:51] <pleia2> eps: I meant that we're diligent about keeping it renewed, not a 100 year renewal :)
[03:51] <philipballew> people could easily get confused with a hyphen
[03:51] <pleia2> yeah, so if they type in ubuntucalifornia.org it'll work too
[03:51] <pleia2> but we'll put the one with the dash in our stuff so it's easy to read
[03:52] <pleia2> I'll follow-up with erichammond regarding DNS and get the basics rolling on the linode
[03:52] <jdeslip> great
[03:53] <pleia2> ok, skipping jdeslip's agenda item
[03:53] <jledbetter> doesn't hurt to forward and analytics can be set up to handle it as one
[03:53] <pleia2> Agenda item 4: Discuss blocking of indexing of irc log
[03:53] <dragon> I've registered ubuntu-california.appspot.com. Adding pleia2 and jdeslip as admins/owners now.
[03:53] <pleia2> thanks dragon
[03:53] <jdeslip> sounds good dragon
[03:54] <nuboon2age_> okay, so it's my sense that many have spoken out in favor of blocking indexing and no one really strongly against, so i'm just wondering how far along we are with it and when we'll get it done?
[03:54] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: I think we need someone to take this to the irc-council
[03:54] <jledbetter> I thought we just needed to get robots.txt updated
[03:54] <eps> Is there any precedent for this?
[03:54] <pleia2> unfortunately we don't control indexing on irclogs.ubuntu.com directly
[03:54] <pleia2> eps: nope
[03:54] <jdeslip> So to summarize this issue: the LoCo council has instigated the logging and the mechanism.  This is NOT something either our team or the leadership can vote on.
[03:54] <pleia2> currently everything on irclogs.ubuntu.com is available for indexing, a team has never requested that it not
[03:55] <nuboon2age_> has anyone brought this up with the irc-council yet?
[03:55] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: not that I'm aware of
[03:55] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: not in any official way at least
[03:55] <pleia2> I know they discussed the indexing issue at UDS and are keen to have options, but I don't know where it landed or who is involved with the discussion
[03:55] <nuboon2age_> personally i'm not against logging, just against indexing
[03:55] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: would you be willing to take up the teams concerns with the ircc ?
[03:56] <akk> It would be good to find out whether there will ever be any chance of public discussion.
[03:56] <eps> No matter what you do, someone is going to republish excerpts out-of-context.
[03:56] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: yes, though i'm at a bit of a disadvantage in that i'm an ubuntu newbie
[03:56] <jdeslip> I am personally for both logging and indexing... (I believe all public info should be indexable)
[03:57] <jdeslip> but, this is not a personal or even team issue.  This is an official Ubuntu channel; so it is an Ubuntu issue.  The proper way to propose change here is through the LoCo council.
[03:57] <nuboon2age_> okay i didn't realize that was your PoV jdeslip, good to know
[03:57] <dragon> I'm neutral at this point, and need to hear more about the issue before I make up my mind. What are the advantages of not having the channel indexed?
[03:58] <nuboon2age_> well i'm not trying to set the policy for all of Ubuntu LoCos, just ours jdeslip
[03:58] <pleia2> so perhaps once we learn whether it's possible, we discuss it here further?
[03:58] <pleia2> it would be great to see an option for each channel to turn on/off indexing, as the team decides
[03:58] <nuboon2age_> dragon: i've personally experienced cyberstalking, and googling for any/all info on a person is the easiest way to cyberstalk
[03:59] <dragon> pleia2: +1 for letting teams control indexing decisions
[03:59] <eps> The TOS explicitly states that all logs will be indexed.
[03:59] <akk> dragon: And you can't chat casually if you're self-editing knowing every word will still be findable 50 years from now.
[03:59] <nuboon2age_> i have colleagues that have experienced severe, over the top cyber- and then in-person stalking
[03:59] <pleia2> eps: right, this is a policy we're looking to change, so we need to take it to the folks who control it
[03:59] <jdeslip> pleia2: I think it would be good to have our team decide as well.
[04:01] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: since you're admittedly new to ubuntu, would you like me to talk to jussi and see what we need to do to get the policy adjusted? (I don't have time to champion this issue, but getting you on the right track might help)
[04:01] <nuboon2age_> nhaines: i understood your previous chats as being in favor of blocking indexing.  is this correct?
[04:01] <jbermudes> Our LoCo should vote to determine if this is an issue that concerns the LoCo and that we would like to start a discussion with the IRC/LoCo council as well as other LoCos. This is an important test of what degree of autonomy LoCos have.
[04:01] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: yes that'd be great
[04:03] <pleia2> jbermudes: based on discussion over the past month, I think people dislike logging, but hate indexing more, we can vote but I think it'd just be a formality
[04:03] <jdeslip> jbermudes: We could vote, but we couldn't do anything about the vote.  Logging/indexing is currently set up through the council, so we need someone interested in the change to propose it.
[04:04] <dragon> jdeslip: before we propose it, we need to be sure that we're going to turn it off as soon as we have control of it.
[04:04] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: as above i'm okay with speaking up for it, but would like some help from more experienced Ubunteros
[04:04] <dragon> Otherwise the effort wouldn't be a productive one.
[04:05] <dragon> I'd vote for logging and against indexing.
[04:05] <jdeslip> Does anyone other than me think indexing is actually a good idea?  (I.e. for the potential help google gives people searching for resolutions to issues and searching past discussions?)
[04:05] <akk> It would be a win even if we could just get them to open it to public discussion. There might be other LoCos who care as well.
[04:06] <nuboon2age_> i can see those points, but it is out weighed for me by the reality of violation of privacy jdeslip
[04:06] <pleia2> akk: agreed, I'll talk to jussi about this point too
[04:06] <jdeslip> I think pleia2 is right, and group members are generally against indexing, so no vote is really necessary, if I am the only pro-indexing fool :)
[04:06] <crashsystems> I like the idea of non-indexed time limited logs behind a captcha. Perhaps three months or something like that.
[04:06] <akk> jdeslip: I've had google direct me to IRC logs when I was trying to solve a tech issue, and it's always been a disaster -- 1000 lnes of which the relevant ones are scattered across 200 lines.
[04:07] <pleia2> crashsystems: yeah, logs which are vaguely restricted should certainly be part of this discussion
[04:07] <akk> jdeslip: Now if I see an IRC log in that sort of search, I don't even bother looking.
[04:07] <pleia2> I think we're going to move toward wrapping this meeting up
[04:07] <dragon> akk: +1
[04:07] <pleia2> I'll talk with jussi and touch base with nuboon2age_ and others who are interested, and we take things from there?
[04:07] <jtatum> jdeslip: i think indexing is inevitable, and that the logs aren't terribly useful unless they can be searched… so i guess that makes me for it
[04:07] <jdeslip> akk: but that is a problem for the search engines algorithm... not for us to solve it for it them I think
[04:07] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: even if its 'after' the meeting i'd be happy to discuss #3
[04:08] <pleia2> I'd like to see this be a public discussion too, so hopefully we'll get that :)
[04:08] <akk> Sounds good, pleia2! (And I'm interested too, and happy to participate in a discussion.)
[04:08] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: thanks, I have to run pretty soon though.  Perhaps I'll catch you on here tomorrow?
[04:08] <pleia2> ok, anything else to add before we wrap up the meeting?
[04:09] <nuboon2age_> okay or whenever jdeslip
[04:09] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: so hopefully y'all would guide me in how to proceed
[04:09] <jdeslip> I'd like add a thank you to pleia2 for running the meeting!
[04:09] <pleia2> thanks for coming everyone :)
[04:10] <jledbetter> Thank you pleia2 :)
[04:10] <nuboon2age_> ty pleia2
[04:10] <jtatum> +1
[04:18] <jdeslip> OK, good night all.  Happy short work week!
[04:19] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: any specific questions about u.h.'s i can be thinking about?
[04:19] <jledbetter> jdeslip, You too :)
[04:19] <pleia2> that reminds me, thanksgiving will make things tricky, I'll get moving on site stuff as quickly as possible but I'm flying back east on tuesday night
[04:19] <pleia2> at the very least I'll be in touch with our shiny new website team all week though :)
[04:20] <jledbetter> yay!
[04:22] <jtatum> looking forward to it
[04:24] <MarkDude> Did my vote count?
[04:24] <akk> nuboon2age_: I hope you send out an announcement about that SJ peace thing to the ML ... sounds neat, and a lot of people won't see it if it's only on IRC.
[04:25] <MarkDude> I had to run to the store to get something for my Grandmother
[04:25] <akk> MarkDude: Turned out there's nothing to vote on because we don't have control, but there was a consensus that we need to get some discussion opened up with the council about letting LoCos decide.
[04:25] <MarkDude> Ok
[04:25] <nuboon2age_> akk: okay
[04:26] <MarkDude> Thats sort of thing has made me uppity in the past, I just sort of expect such things like Local groups not being allowed to choose:(
[04:27] <akk> I get the sense it's sort of like "If you LoCos are going to use our name and our equipment then you have to follow our rules."
[04:28] <DarkwingDuck> Hey guys, what I miss?
[04:28]  * MarkDude is just resigned to the idea that we need petition to  get ideas approved here <sigh :P <\sigh>
[04:28] <MarkDude> Whatever
[04:28] <DarkwingDuck> MarkDude: It's </sigh> :P:P
 or <sigh>:p</sigh> works
[04:29] <DarkwingDuck> ??
[04:29] <DarkwingDuck> :P
[04:29] <MarkDude> DarkwingDuck, as long as you are correcting - I forgot my 1st >
[04:29] <eps> DarkWingDuck: dragon | I've registered ubuntu-california.appspot.com. Adding pleia2 and jdeslip as admins/owners now.
[04:29] <jledbetter> :P works as well
[04:30] <eps> DarkWingDuck: you got left out
[04:30] <nuboon2age_> DarkwingDuck: we decided to change then name of Ubuntu and have elected you the new king. ;-)
[04:30] <DarkwingDuck> LOL
[04:30] <jledbetter> It's good to be king
[04:30] <DarkwingDuck> Sorry, my wifes birthday was today
[04:30] <nuboon2age_> happy birthday to her
[04:30] <DarkwingDuck> :)
[04:31] <DarkwingDuck> What was tonight big topic?
[04:31] <akk> Happy birthday Mrs Duck!
[04:31] <pleia2> MarkDude: it's not physically possible for us to change indexing, we can vote all we want, we can decide we want indexing, but we still need to get the change made on the server which is contrary to current policy
[04:31] <dragon> lol jledbetter.
[04:31] <pleia2> there is nothing that we could have done at the meeting to make you happy about this situation
[04:32]  * DarkwingDuck raises an eyebrow
[04:33] <pleia2> anyway, off for sushis
[04:33] <pleia2> later all
[04:33] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: well it might help MarkDude to hear that the concensus view is to block indexing
[04:33] <MarkDude> I know pleia2 - I just expect that to be the answer on Ubuntu stuff. Im not motivated enough to change it.
[04:33] <pleia2> yeah, most of the team does want indexing :)
[04:33] <pleia2> we will try for a change, I'm exploring the avenues
[04:33] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: other way around
[04:33] <akk> Most of the team does want blocking, doesn't want indexing, was my read.
[04:33] <pleia2> err, right
[04:33] <pleia2> sorry
[04:34] <pleia2> want indexing blocked
[04:34] <nuboon2age_> ;-D
[04:34] <akk> But anyway, no formal vote or discussion -- we can have that later if the council lets us change it.
[04:34] <DarkwingDuck> IRCC will not block indexing
[04:34] <pleia2> need food, brain getting fuzzy :)
[04:34]  * MarkDude is resigned to that being the way here. It less stressful for everyone that I have just accepted that the pyramid works from the top down, few exceptions
[04:34] <DarkwingDuck> I've been talking to them since UDS almost daily
[04:34] <MarkDude> Go eat pleia2  :)
[04:34] <MarkDude> lol
[04:34] <akk> Happy sushi, pleia2!
[04:34] <MarkDude> Go eat, pleia2  :)
[04:34] <MarkDude> commas are important
[04:35] <akk> heh
[04:35] <nuboon2age_> DarkwingDuck: how would we know what they might/might not do when provided with a proposal?
[04:35] <DarkwingDuck> Because of statements that have been provided on the LoCo and IRC ML plus my petering them in person at UDS
[04:36] <DarkwingDuck> The idea behind the log IS to have them indexed
[04:36] <nuboon2age_> well they may be open minded enough to change their minds DarkwingDuck
[04:36] <nuboon2age_> indexing and logging are easily separable DarkwingDuck
[04:36] <DarkwingDuck> Counter question
[04:37] <DarkwingDuck> Why is there no outcry with the ML?
[04:37] <DarkwingDuck> Or the Wiki
[04:37] <akk> I think it's a shame they decide stuff like this without allowing public discussion. But then I think that about a lot of Ubuntu decisions.
[04:37] <DarkwingDuck> akk: there has been plenty of public discussion
[04:37] <MarkDude> nUboon2Age, not likely they will change it
[04:37] <nuboon2age_> DarkwingDuck: because most of the people who worry about privacy on irc log are even MORE worried about privacy on ML, so they don't use it.  me included
[04:37] <akk> DarkwingDuck: Dunno about you, but I spend quite a bit longer composing an email than composing a single line of IRC chat.
[04:38] <nuboon2age_> MarkDude: we'll see
[04:38] <DarkwingDuck> *shrugs* I spend about 6 hours a day in IRC
[04:38] <nuboon2age_> DarkwingDuck: and everyone is entitled to their own approach
[04:39] <DarkwingDuck> But, there was public debate on the issue
[04:39] <DarkwingDuck> It spammed my inbox for a while
[04:39] <nuboon2age_> when/where DarkwingDuck?
[04:39] <akk> DarkwingDuck: Public where?
[04:39] <DarkwingDuck> LoCo ML
[04:39] <DarkwingDuck> IRC ML
[04:39]  * MarkDude still like the freeeeeedom that unlogged channel provides, talking about issues that are fine, yet not worthy of recording
[04:39] <DarkwingDuck> IRCC Meetings
[04:39] <nuboon2age_> i'll bet none of the rest of us knew about it DarkwingDuck
[04:39] <MarkDude> DarkwingDuck, talk happens in very small circles, that does not mean it includes the public
[04:39] <DarkwingDuck> and I'm willing to bet no one looked
[04:40] <MarkDude> in public
[04:40] <nuboon2age_> MarkDude: i'm glad we got the unlogged offtopic channel as well
[04:40] <MarkDude> and the publis are 2 worlds
[04:40] <DarkwingDuck> Then what is public?
[04:40] <nuboon2age_> DarkwingDuck: if we don't know about it, why would we know to look
[04:40] <dragon> pleia2: is our unlogged counterpart, -us-ca-offtopic, official?
[04:40] <DarkwingDuck> a Logged Indexed chatroom?
[04:40] <akk> DarkwingDuck: Looked how? If I'd set up a google alert for something like --ubuntu irc logging-- would I have gotten an announcement that way?
[04:41] <MarkDude> DarkwingDuck, thats like Clinton saying it depends on what your meaning of is *is* :D
[04:41] <MarkDude> Public means the group as a whole
[04:42] <akk> Public means that people who have already expressed interest in a subject can find out about discussions of it.
[04:42] <MarkDude> in public means people can observe, the ineer circle talking
[04:42] <DarkwingDuck> My point is that is has been debated. Becasue you have not looked to find the info doesn't mean it didn't happen. Because the IRCC didn't email every user of IRC doesn't mean that nothing was said or talked about.
[04:42] <akk> Remember the Hitchhiker's Guide, where the public announcement was in a filing cabinet in the basement behind a sign saying "Beware of the Leopard"?
[04:42] <akk> (or something, I might not have all those details quite right :)
[04:42] <DarkwingDuck> There are millions of users of Ubuntu... There is not a democratic vote when something gets changed.
[04:42] <MarkDude> akk +1
[04:43] <DarkwingDuck> It's there, its public but, if you don't take the time to learn then don't complain... It's like people who don't vite getting mad about elected officals
[04:43] <DarkwingDuck> vite/vote
[04:43] <akk> DarkwingDuck: If the answer is "This is not a democracy", that's an answer. But "The conversations were public, and if you didn't participate it's your fault for not knowing where to look" is a cop-out.
[04:43] <eps> "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos."
[04:43] <MarkDude> DarkwingDuck, remeber OZ, there is a man behind the curtain, tell us we should accept that, its less annoying that telling that there is no man behind the curtain
[04:43] <DarkwingDuck> hehehe
[04:44]  * DarkwingDuck hands out tin-foil
[04:44]  * MarkDude says the cake is a lie as he walks off to check on dinner
[04:44] <DarkwingDuck> No, akk... It's not a cop-out
[04:44] <DarkwingDuck> It was announced as much as other issues are.
[04:44] <DarkwingDuck> It was talked about in the ML for weeks
[04:45] <akk> Which ML?
[04:45]  * MarkDude wear said hat, and ponders how some folks see FREEDOM differently
[04:45]  * eps facepalms
[04:45] <akk> I honestly don't want to string this out ... I just resent being "beware of the leopard"ed. :)
[04:45] <jtatum> information wants to be free :)
[04:46] <DarkwingDuck> If you want to knwo what is going on with the LoCos and IRCC here... https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts and https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-irc
[04:46] <akk> If I should have known about something and didn't, I'd like to know how I should have known, what I should be paying attention to that I'm not.
[04:46] <DarkwingDuck> There you go
[04:46] <DarkwingDuck> I got those from the LoCo wiki page and the IRC wiki page (10 second search each)
[04:47] <DarkwingDuck> Anyway... If you don't look it's not going to email you or ping you on IRC.
[04:48] <akk> okay, so everyone in a LoCo should be on that list, I guess
[04:48] <akk> just in case a discussion should pop up
[04:48] <DarkwingDuck> Oh wait...
[04:48] <DarkwingDuck> as a matter of fact..
[04:49] <DarkwingDuck> I DID email the California team on 11/5/10 about LoCo talking about Logging.
[04:49] <DarkwingDuck> You did have the info.
[04:49] <DarkwingDuck> I'm sorry, Oct 5
[04:49] <DarkwingDuck> Subject: Logging of Ubuntu LoCo Teams core channels
[04:50] <DarkwingDuck> Date: Monday, October 04, 2010, 12:01:53 pm
[04:50]  * DarkwingDuck shakes his head.
[04:50] <akk> You're right. You did.
[04:50] <DarkwingDuck> It was public discussion that I informed the team about.
[04:51] <akk> I think I even saw that, and misunderstood thinking that was a closed list for the council
[04:51] <akk> but I should have gone and looked for the list and found out it was open.
[04:53] <nuboon2age_> akk: no i don't agree that it was all on you
[04:53] <nuboon2age_> i don't agree with DarkwingDuck at all on this
[04:53] <DarkwingDuck> With re what?
[04:53] <akk> DarkwingDuck is right that he did tell us about the discussion, though, and I appreciate that even if I was confused about it at the time.
[04:54] <DarkwingDuck> Howdy all!
[04:54] <DarkwingDuck> I wanted to pass this on because this is such a hot topic of convrsation all
[04:54] <DarkwingDuck> over and wanted to keep the California Team up to date with it. There has been
[04:54] <DarkwingDuck> a few posts on the subject in the LoCo Contact ML on the subject.
[04:54] <DarkwingDuck> DW
[04:54] <DarkwingDuck> That was my message with the forward...
[04:54] <MarkDude> akk I think that the responsibility was on the Council to let us know a drastic change wwas going to happen
[04:54] <nuboon2age_> well for that i can thank DarkwingDuck, but the attitude of labeling with 'tin foil hat' is not cool
[04:54] <MarkDude> Way to polarize there DarkwingDuck
[04:54] <akk> I do agree the tinfoil remark was a little rude
[04:54] <MarkDude> Mocking people that dont want every word logged
[04:54] <DarkwingDuck> It was open to public... I passed on the info
[04:54] <akk> but I was being a bit antagonistic too
[04:55] <MarkDude> and therefore we are *paranoid*
[04:55] <nuboon2age_> you are very sweet akk
[04:55] <DarkwingDuck> I am sorry for being rude by mentioning Tin-foil
[04:55] <nuboon2age_> ty DarkwingDuck
[04:55] <MarkDude> after all what would a normal person have to hide?
[04:55] <MarkDude> Cool,
[04:55] <DarkwingDuck> You're right
[04:55] <MarkDude> Fair enough :)
[04:55] <DarkwingDuck> There was no hiding
[04:55] <DarkwingDuck> It was open. I tried to pass it on.
[04:55] <DarkwingDuck> I'm at a loss of what else I could have done...
[04:57] <nuboon2age_> ty for trying DarkwingDuck
[04:57] <DarkwingDuck> And I'll keep passing on info that comes across my Inbox
[04:57] <akk> For clueless people like me it might have helped to say it's an open list and anyone can participate
[04:57] <akk> but I'm not criticising you for not saying that -- that's my ignorance
[04:57] <DarkwingDuck> fair enough akk
[04:58] <DarkwingDuck> I will do that in the future :)
[04:58] <akk> (I'm a bit trained by ubuntu-devel where I see all these interesting convos that I can't participate in, so I don't assume things are open)
[04:59] <DarkwingDuck> I'm in about 30 MLs so when I see something I'll tag it and forward it along
[04:59] <MarkDude> That is my issue DarkwingDuck
[05:00] <MarkDude> I am part of many MLs so it is hard to track them, A few of them will include *important* in the subject line
[05:01] <MarkDude> Fedora' elections for example, they just use it sparingly
[05:01] <DarkwingDuck> I read 99.9% of what come in my inbox
[05:01] <DarkwingDuck> .01 being Launchpad joins for places I'm admin and GIT comments unless it's flagged for me. :D
[05:02] <akk> Most email I get with "IMPORTANT" in the subject line has to do with helping the ex-dictator of Nigeria with some extra cash. :)
[05:02] <DarkwingDuck> ROFL
[05:03] <jdeslip> Here is a question to all of you: is there anything stopping an individual in any of these channels from taking their own logs and publishing them to the web (indexable and all)?  If there is not, then it seems to me this discussion is really pointless.  There is no expectation of privacy in these channels.
[05:03] <eps> jdeslip: there is not
[05:04] <akk> Raise your hand if you've actually had that happen and it's still out there and indexed.
[05:04] <akk> It could happen, but it's very rare.
[05:05] <jdeslip> So, if you or I can take our logs and publish them (all it takes is one interested party to publish the logs) than we can't really stop them.
[05:05] <eps> It's basically a copyright/licensing issue, not a technical one.
[05:05] <jdeslip> Is it a copyright issue?
[05:06] <jdeslip> Would that person be breaking some sort of EULA in publishing the logs?
[05:06] <akk> Not a EULA, since we don't agree to anything upon joining.
[05:06] <eps> Who owns your words?
[05:06] <jdeslip> When you type them into a public forum?
[05:06] <jdeslip> I think they are up for grabs no?
[05:07] <eps> Not necessarily. It's a valid question.
[05:07] <MarkDude> jdeslip,  its not
[05:07] <jdeslip> Surely a newspaper would be in its right to print anything in one of these channels, right?
[05:07] <MarkDude> Fedora made me sign an agreement, then they require my conversations to be ALL logged
[05:07] <MarkDude> and publicly searchable
[05:08] <jdeslip> But Mark, I can personally log this channel and publish it.  What would stop a person like me?
[05:08] <eps> jdeslip: Probably yes, *if* it's newsworthy.
[05:08] <jdeslip> Or a newspaper.
[05:08] <MarkDude> They also give me $ for throwing parties,
[05:08] <akk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines (linked from the TOS mentioned in the topic here) says "Please also be aware that Ubuntu channels are logged, many officially and all of them unofficially by individual users, and the contents of all channels are considered to be in the public domain."
[05:08] <MarkDude> and all the edia I want
[05:08] <MarkDude> media
[05:08] <MarkDude> So I dont mind the tradeoff
[05:09] <eps> Public Domain presents a potential problem.
[05:09] <jdeslip> akk: so there you have it.  I believe all users are free to publish their own logs (indexable and all)
[05:09] <akk> Yep, that page is clear about that.
[05:09] <eps> There's a huge difference between a nonexclusive royalty-free license and public domain.
[05:09] <jdeslip> That to me, makes the whole question about the locobot logging and indexing totally pointless.  Not only can the locobot do that, ANYONE can
[05:10] <MarkDude> fair trade in my mind, I volunteer here tho
[05:10] <MarkDude> worst case scenario is not how things should be decided here jdeslip - that is what you a presenting
[05:10] <MarkDude> sp / a /are
[05:11] <DarkwingDuck> Okay
[05:12] <DarkwingDuck> I just talked to IRCC about indexing and robots.txt
[05:12] <eps> Do tell
[05:12] <jdeslip> MarkDude: agreed - we may be able to ask the canonical people to put up a robots.txt
[05:12]  * MarkDude leans in to listen
[05:12] <DarkwingDuck> It's outside of them and it's something that has to be done via canonical sys admin
[05:12] <DarkwingDuck> So
[05:12] <jdeslip> but my point remains, that nobody should have an expectation of privacy in these channels.  There are inherently not-private. Anyone can publish the logs.
[05:13] <DarkwingDuck> If you want to help me draft something up to send to them I will act as a spokes person to canonical sys admin for it.
[05:13] <DarkwingDuck> They are the ones in charge of a robots.txt
[05:13] <MarkDude> jdeslip,  your point is not assumed correct, by at least myself
[05:13] <eps> jdeslip: would not one of the Creative Commons licenses be better than public domain?
[05:14] <jdeslip> eps: The point is - I don't think there is any license for IRC channels
[05:14] <jdeslip> (at least not these ones)
[05:14] <eps> jdeslip: I think that might be a better avenue for discussion than logging/indexing
[05:14] <DarkwingDuck> Any takers to help me out with this?
[05:15] <akk> DarkwingDuck: I can help. Have to look at how the site indexes work to set up the right robots.txt.
[05:15] <jdeslip> eps: I think licensing the channel content would be silly - it is best that people just realize that there is no privacy in these channels ;)
[05:15] <DarkwingDuck> What I'm looking for is a draft to let them know what we want.
[05:16] <eps> jdeslip: licensing isn't about reading so much as redistribution/reuse
[05:16] <DarkwingDuck> They know how robot.txt work.
[05:16] <DarkwingDuck> *robots.txt
[05:16] <DarkwingDuck> We just want to let them know that we want to stop indexing in here... That's what I'm looking for.
[05:16] <MarkDude> Privacy the word, is different to how I feel. I feel that I am having privacy invaded at a larger level by logging it ALL
[05:17] <akk> Looks like it has to be one that applies to #ubuntu-loconame.html and #ubuntu-loconame.txt in each of the lower-level directories
[05:17] <akk> for any loco that requests it.
[05:17] <MarkDude> have at it log away, dont put up curtains, dont encrypt, dont secure your router, it all should be OPEN
[05:17] <DarkwingDuck> akk: ?? site a URL?
[05:18] <jdeslip> MarkDude: again, any of us can log and publish this. Why do you feel any sense of privacy at all in these channels?
[05:18] <akk> For instance, logs in http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/22/
[05:18] <eps> MarkDude: I guess I shouldn't ask your opinion on Google Street View. ;-)
[05:18] <akk> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/yy/mm/dd/#ubuntu-loconame.{txt,html} are what we're asking robots.txt to list as non-indexable
[05:18] <akk> right?
[05:18] <jdeslip> MarkDude: Securing your own personal information is your own business.  But IRC channels are not private.  They are not files on your computer or home network.
[05:19] <DarkwingDuck> akk: Yes
[05:19] <akk> jdeslip: Anyone can break into your house and steal your hard drive, but that happens about as often as some random person publishing public logs of irc channels.
[05:20] <jdeslip> akk: that is criminal
[05:20] <jdeslip> akk: as far as I understand, publishing these IRC logs is not
[05:20] <akk> Agreed, it's criminal whereas ubuntu practically encourages random public logs of IRC -- but in practice they're about equally likely.
[05:20] <DarkwingDuck> Then what is the issue?
[05:21] <eps> What I don't want is someone taking my works and representing them as their own; likewise, I don't want anything I didn't actually write misattributed to be.
[05:21] <DarkwingDuck> Hence the reason why LOGs are importent
[05:21] <eps> Anyone can take something in the public domain and slap their own copyright on it.
[05:21] <akk> If they're public domain, anyone could take a log and edit it as they please and republish it.
[05:22] <akk> (Libel laws still apply, but then the onus is on you to sue whoever published it.)
[05:22] <jdeslip> eps: That's a good idea, I think I am going to try to turn this thrilling discussion into a book on privacy and sell it :)
[05:22] <DarkwingDuck> But, if its published from source then its a moot point to do that.
[05:22] <eps> There's then a burden of proof which can only be established if the logs are retained forever and indexed. ;-)
[05:22] <akk> They don't have to be indexed for that, eps.
[05:22] <jdeslip> eps: LOL - it's a catch-22
[05:22] <akk> Just retained and available.
[05:23] <eps> You have to be able to prove that they were originally in the public domain.
[05:23] <DarkwingDuck> And, without it being indexed then you cannot prove that.
[05:23] <akk> You don't have to prove it by googling for the phrase. Just by going to the appropriate log and saying "here's really what was said".
[05:23] <eps> If you can find it. Hence the need for indexing.
[05:24]  * DarkwingDuck blinks
[05:24] <eps> So, there are a couple of ways to handle this. One is simply to change the license; another is to have rights revert to the author upon publication.
[05:25] <eps> Basically, you'd be granting a one-time-use permission to IRC.
[05:25] <jdeslip> Anyway, I stick by my original.  I any and all of us are free to log the channel and publish (with indexability) those logs, then it is a big foolish to expect any form of privacy in these channels.  And asking the Canonical people to stop indexing is just giving us a false sense of security.
[05:25] <DarkwingDuck> So, you would have to sign an agreement everytime you logged on?
[05:25] <jdeslip> It seems better to me to just drop this whole ILLUSION of privacy altogether.
[05:25] <eps> Nope.
[05:26] <DarkwingDuck> +1 jdeslip
[05:26] <eps> All communication is unencrypted. There is no privacy.
[05:27] <DarkwingDuck> So, anyong other then akk want to help?
[05:27] <DarkwingDuck> Or, is this going to be a situation where we all want something done but no one wants to kick in the work to try and make it happen?
[05:29] <akk> I have to go -- but DarkwingDuck, I'll be around tomorrow
[05:29] <DarkwingDuck> akk: you on the ML?
[05:29] <akk> Yep
[05:30] <DarkwingDuck> Okay... I'll catch you tomorrow?
[05:30] <akk> Sounds good -- talk to you then!
[05:30] <DarkwingDuck> MarkDude, nuboon2age_ You guys want to help?
[05:35] <DarkwingDuck> No?
[05:35] <MarkDude> jdeslip, the 2 of us see privacy differently, thats ok, I dont know that we ever will
[05:36] <DarkwingDuck> MarkDude: you want to help draft this email?
[05:36] <MarkDude> DarkwingDuck,  like I said, my expectations of my dealings here are low on this sort of thing
[05:36] <MarkDude> So its best that I step back on this
[05:36] <eps> Documenting your expectations is not a bad idea.
[05:36] <MarkDude> Keep it copacetic
[05:36] <DarkwingDuck> MarkDude: I'm giving you a direct opertunity to do someting about what you are very vocal about.
[05:36] <DarkwingDuck> And you don't want a solution?
[05:37] <DarkwingDuck> Or, you want to talk about the problem and put no effort into correcting it?
[05:37] <DarkwingDuck> That is slightly counter productive.
[05:37] <MarkDude> The logging thing was the straw that broke the camels back, after I stepped back ubuntu shifted down my list of priorities
[05:38] <DarkwingDuck> However, you are still extreamly vocal about it.
[05:38] <MarkDude> Its still important, just not as much
[05:38] <DarkwingDuck> I don't understand...
[05:38] <MarkDude> I think I said less than 20 sentences regarding it, still less than I have said in the past
[05:39] <DarkwingDuck> Nevermind. I think I finally understand.
[05:40] <MarkDude> DarkwingDuck, I dont have the ability to pretend the emperor wears clothes, I'll acknowledge it every so often , but my level of trust in leadership has slipped a bit
[05:41] <DarkwingDuck> Then I have a request
[05:41] <MarkDude> Good luck with it
[05:41] <eps> MarkDude: An emperor penguin suit?
[05:42] <DarkwingDuck> If you are going to complain just to start a fight/argument please in the future don't. All you are doing is trying to cause problems and then refusing to help fix the the issues. This is nothing more then trying to tear a group apart that I frankly believe in a lot.
[05:42] <MarkDude> Use me as an example of someone that got so burned out on being told what was best for me, that Ubuntu is no longer m #1 thing I
[05:42] <MarkDude> Complain?
[05:42] <DarkwingDuck> But, Don't sit here and argue how messed up something it.
[05:43] <DarkwingDuck> argue that it's not public
[05:43] <DarkwingDuck> Argue that is closed
[05:43] <MarkDude> You already accused me (and others) of being nuts and paranoid f
[05:43] <DarkwingDuck> Then when presented with a solution turn it down.
[05:43] <DarkwingDuck> I'm trying to fix an issue that the group feels needs to be fixed.
[05:44] <DarkwingDuck> Reguardless of what my personal views on it is.
[05:44] <MarkDude> So my opinion is only valid if I drp other things I am doing - and make this issue#1?
[05:44] <jdeslip> OK, anyway, good night all - for realz this time
[05:44] <DarkwingDuck> No, Your opinion is very valid but, if you are going to champion that you can't do anything about it don't shy away from doing something about it.
[05:45] <MarkDude> I cant night jdeslip
[05:45] <MarkDude> I aint mad at ya :)
[05:45] <MarkDude> or you DarkwingDuck
[05:45] <MarkDude> btw
[05:45] <MarkDude> Im just resigned to low expectations
[05:45] <Eureka> wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects edited
[05:45] <MarkDude> Thats not an argument, that is what was asked of me
[05:46]  * DarkwingDuck sighs
[10:58] <dragon> Anyone in Santa Clara area experiencing Internet outage?
[10:58] <dragon> wait... o.O
[10:58] <dragon> I don't see how one would answer that.
[10:58] <dragon> nevermind.
[14:25] <nuboon2age_> New bug re: blocking search indexing: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/680052
[17:13] <nuboon2age_> i'm looking back and reading jdeslip's argument last night where he claims this is public domain
[17:13] <nuboon2age_> that is incorrect
[17:14] <nuboon2age_> one can try (and fail) to make an argument re: expectation of privacy on the channel, however
[17:14] <nuboon2age_> that is entirely separate from copyright
[17:14] <nuboon2age_> you never give up your copyright and things never automatically become public domain
[17:16] <nuboon2age_> that is actually one of the reasons that the new Creative Commons zero (CC0) license
[17:16] <nuboon2age_> because its so difficult to declare something public domain and actually achieve it legally
[17:17] <nuboon2age_> they created a license to get as close as possible -- CC0
[17:17] <nuboon2age_> but no, nothing becomes public domain automatically
[17:17] <nuboon2age_> the legalities of this are extremely arcane and twisted.
[17:18] <nuboon2age_> i've taken course on intellectual property rights.  very complex!
[17:19] <nuboon2age_> and also what eps says"anyone can take something in the public domain and slap their own copyright on it."  is also not accurate
[17:20] <nuboon2age_> first off this is not 'public domain'
[17:20] <nuboon2age_> there is no place that is truly 'public domain'
[17:20] <nuboon2age_> this is a problem with the english language
[17:20] <nuboon2age_> you'd think that a domain that is public would be a 'public domain'
[17:20] <nuboon2age_> but no
[17:21] <nuboon2age_> public domain basically only acrues to a work after its copyright expires
[17:22] <nuboon2age_> everything you ever 'perform' or create inherently has copyrights which you can't destroy, or delete and you can't simply declare it to be in the public domain.  it doesn't work that way legally
[17:23] <nuboon2age_> the work has to have the copyright expire (ie. requires the passage of time) in order for it to become 'public domain'
[17:25] <nuboon2age_> now you may ask, "what if i don't register my words?"
[17:25] <nuboon2age_> A: it doesn't matter.  registering is a means to make it easier for copyrights
[17:25] <nuboon2age_> to be handled legally since it creates a legal trail,
[17:25] <nuboon2age_>  but whether its registered or no, all created works are considered to have copyrights.
[17:26] <nuboon2age_> now it may indeed become difficult to prove that you are the copyright owner on something you've created,
[17:26] <nuboon2age_> if you don't register it, but in no way does that remove your copyright.
[17:27] <jdeslip> nuboon2Age - Are you really saying a newspaper couldn't publish content in this channel.
[17:27] <nuboon2age_> so again jdeslip's argument that we have no copyright here is entirely without merit.
[17:27] <jdeslip> By entering content into a public channel you are allowing for this use.  Or else a newspaper wouldn't be able to publish anything ever.
[17:28] <jdeslip> nuboon2age: I don't admit to being a lawyer.  But I doubt very much you know more about this.
[17:30] <jdeslip> I believe that any journalist would have no problem at all publishing your words verbatim that entered into a public channel.
[17:33] <jdeslip> Can you tell me what law or license such a journalist would be breaking?
[17:35] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: Also can you please stop saying things like "entirely without merit" - exageration is not a good way to make a point.  Even if I am wrong, and there is some law that would forbid a journalist (or you and I) from posting the logs, it is not for trivial reasons that I am wrong.
[17:39] <jdeslip> My point is this: the stuff you say in public IRC channels is not different from what you say in person at a real (in person) public forum.  It can (and often is) recorded and published.
[17:41] <jdeslip> I don't know of any law or agreement I signed to get on here that would journalists (or even you or I) from publishing our conversations on here under fair-use or simply the idea of public information.
[17:43] <jdeslip> I suspect, Ubuntu could change the terms of service on using their channels in order to make the content copyrighted.  But, I don't see any terms like that currently.
[17:45] <jussi> theres stuff in the  motd...
[17:45] <akk> nuboon2age_: The "public domain" came from that Ubuntu page I referenced, where *Ubuntu* says the contents of all their IRC channels are PD.
[17:45] <akk> They may not be able to do that legally, but they claim they are.
[17:46] <jussi> may I make a small paste?
[17:46] <akk> A newspaper could publish short exerpts under Fair Use anyway, surely? Whether it's PD or not?
[17:47] <jdeslip> akk: You are right.  If you look at the terms of service: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/TermsOfService - they are explicitly saying that anything entered into these public channels is to be thought of as public domain.
[17:47] <jussi> - By connecting to freenode you indicate that you have read
[17:47] <jussi> - and agree to adhere to our policies and procedures as per
[17:47] <jussi> - the website (http://freenode.net). We would like to remind
[17:47] <jussi> - you that unauthorized public logging of channels on the
[17:47] <jussi> - network is prohibited. Public channel logging should only
[17:47] <jussi> - take place where the channel owner(s) has requested this
[17:47] <jussi> - and users of the channel are all made aware (if you are
[17:47] <jussi> - publically logging your channel, you may wish to keep a
[17:47] <jussi> - notice in topic and perhaps as a on-join message).
[17:47] <jussi> thats from freenodes MOTD when you join the network
[17:48] <akk> But then the Ubuntu IRC guidelines turn that around, and encourage public logging by anyone: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines
[17:48] <akk> I think since Ubuntu is the channel owner, that overrides Freenode's policy.
[17:48] <jdeslip> jussi: Ah!  I see.  So any journalist couldn't just publish the logs because it violoates Freenodes' policy.
[17:49] <akk> "Please also be aware that Ubuntu channels are logged, many officially and all of them unofficially by individual users, and the contents of all channels are considered to be in the public domain."
[17:50] <MarkDude> jdeslip, - no problem there. Peoples do follows the rules regarding the internets :D
[17:50] <jussi> akk: that was written with freenode guidance. (we have a staffer on the ircc)
[17:50] <MarkDude> No one is worried about journalists
[17:53] <jdeslip> So, nuboon2age is partially right that for generic channels, Freenode's terms prohibit logging by random folks (likely not the case on other servers).  However, as akk pointed out, the terms for Ubuntu channels override the Freenode rules.
[17:53] <MarkDude> More likely would be someone submitting to http://bash.org/ or some similar site. People here are not the issue, its he people that have not yet joined the group-- it is impossible to say how those folks will or will not act
[17:54] <jdeslip> nuboon2Age - I officially concede defeat over the issue of whether anyone can log - since freenode terms clearly prohibit that.
[17:54] <MarkDude> jdeslip, thats because rules are followed on the intertubes?
[17:55]  * MarkDude realized that pro- logging attempts to say that no person will break the rules
[17:55] <jdeslip> MarkDude: I'm not sure I understand the question.
[17:55] <MarkDude> the only difference is that one would be a personal log- the other would be from an official site
[17:57] <MarkDude> The logging *answer* is a false dilemma. Whatever, it gives some comfort. Have at it. Makes appealing to new users hard.
[17:57] <jdeslip> It seems like Ubuntu's terms are within the Freenode terms if that is what you mean.   Please do not tell people off for asking something, just because it seems simple or obvious -- we discourage this attitude in all our channels.
[17:59]  * MarkDude has never used the forums
[17:59] <MarkDude> Partially due to its permanence
[17:59] <MarkDude> Yes jussi I agree
[18:00] <pleia2> the forums are by far the most active support avenue in the community, there are over a million registered users
[18:00] <MarkDude> But any new user I talk to - I need to tell tham that there actions are being recorded
[18:00] <MarkDude> their words are kept permanently
[18:00] <jdeslip> No you don't... because believe or not - people actually expect that from the internet!
[18:00] <MarkDude> maybe folks you know
[18:01] <jdeslip> People are quite used to using things like ubuntuforums etc...
[18:01] <pleia2> yeah, that drunk photo from your college party is indexed forever too ;) there are news stories about it all the time
[18:01] <MarkDude> jdeslip, step back and think about the peple you see in my group
[18:01] <MarkDude> Not average geeks
[18:01] <MarkDude> newer people
[18:01] <MarkDude> You cant speak for my circle
[18:01] <jdeslip> MarkDude - arent' you the biggest user of Facebook I know?
[18:01] <pleia2> it was interesting actually, we recently had a client ask us to unblock facebook and myspace for just one employee in the company - the recruiter
[18:01] <MarkDude> I have a vanity site
[18:02] <MarkDude> My number is public
[18:02] <pleia2> she used them both extensively in the hiring practice, if it's not something people expect, they really should
[18:02] <MarkDude> So everyone I know should do things like I do?
[18:02] <MarkDude> jdeslip, I dont require my friends to be on FB
[18:02] <MarkDude> I choose to be there
[18:03] <MarkDude> If I made people join - just so they could go to my events
[18:03] <jdeslip> I'm saying that each of us are individual responsible for our privacy on the net.  If you don't want something you say or do indexable - don't say or do it in a public channel.
[18:03] <MarkDude> That would be analogous to here
[18:04] <jdeslip> I believe *most* people understand this rule of thumb and say/do only what they want in places like ubuntuforums.  Those places are clearly not suffering from lack of newbies ;)
[18:04] <MarkDude> Cool jdeslip - my comfort level with cameras everywhere,
[18:04] <MarkDude> the other part of the most is a the group I do a decent job appealing to you
[18:04] <MarkDude> not most
[18:05] <MarkDude> Its a high bar Ubuntu is making here
[18:05] <MarkDude> Along with creating a LP acct
[18:05] <jdeslip> MarkDude: I'm not sure I understand you... :/
[18:05] <MarkDude> privacy is NOT dead
[18:06] <MarkDude> Regardless of you being ok with that
[18:06]  * MarkDude is not
[18:06] <jdeslip> Of course it isn't, the whole point of this is that there are private places and public places.  You shouldn't necessarily expect privacy in a public place. :)
[18:06] <MarkDude> ITs very clear that many people dont get what I am saying
[18:07] <MarkDude> And ALL of Ubuntu is PUBLIC
[18:07] <MarkDude> ALL
[18:07] <MarkDude> If people dont like that- they should not join
[18:07] <MarkDude> I get it.
[18:07] <jdeslip> I have many private places.  My personal computer, my home network, my email accounts... but forums? public irc channels? Nah.
[18:08] <MarkDude> In other words- ALL of Ubuntu
[18:08] <jdeslip> My Ubuntu desktop is private.  But my participation in the community is not private... is there even such a thing as private community?
[18:08] <MarkDude> Yes- Gidget Kitchen respects privacy
[18:08] <pleia2> it's true, the ethos of ubuntu is very much that "information wants to be free" to encourage collaboration and transparency (not everyone can be online 24/7)
[18:09] <MarkDude> I have some friends that have been abused, hurt - whatever- they can talk about that in GK
[18:09] <MarkDude> it is a safe space
[18:10] <MarkDude> Safe does not mean a for sure- it means an attempt at respecting privacy - NOT a for sure
[18:10] <pleia2> safe spaces are important, but for team channels where the purpose is working on projects that also impact folks who are not on irc all day it's been said that it's terribly unfair to them to block them from access to the discussions
[18:10] <jdeslip> That's great... but that is not the purpose of a public IRC channel.  Even if it wasn't logged, you shuldn't be sharing information like that here.
[18:11] <pleia2> that's why there is an #ubuntu-women-project channel, so people on the mailing list stopped feeling left out from project discussions
[18:11] <MarkDude> pleia2,  the inverse of that - the womens shelter I have worked with- most of their members wont feel comfortable being logged
[18:11] <MarkDude> pleia2, thats also the reason there is an unlogged channel
[18:11] <pleia2> if you feel the -offtopic channel isn't enough, what do you propose to make sure we're not shutting out the rest of the members?
[18:11] <MarkDude> to respect privacy
[18:12] <pleia2> we have an unlogged channel, you created it
[18:12] <pleia2> a bunch of loco teams do
[18:12] <MarkDude> A mention of the OT channel in the main channels TOPIC
[18:12] <MarkDude> Thata all
[18:12] <pleia2> oh, when did you request this?
[18:12] <pleia2> I must have missed it
[18:13] <MarkDude> before the new board joined- But I realized it would be better to sort some stuff out 1st :)
[18:13] <MarkDude> There is a log of it :D
[18:14] <jussi> oh, that should be done
[18:14] <pleia2> the topic is already very long, can you propose some short text to describe the channel? "for unlogged chat, join #ubuntu-us-ca-offtopic"?
[18:14] <jussi> pleia2: you can drop the bit about logging as you have the onjoin message
[18:14] <jdeslip> that seems reasonable to me
[18:15] <pleia2> jussi: I think I'll hold off on that for now, since there were very strong feelings about it remaining in the topic itself
[18:15] <pleia2> (we do the same for the -women channels)
[18:15] <jussi> oh, fair enough
[18:17] <MarkDude>   /msg chanserv topic #ubuntu-us-ca Welcome to the Ubuntu California Local Community Team! | Webpage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam (includes; mailing list, forum, and more!) | Next Meeting: Sunday, Dec 5th, 7:00pm PST | This channel is publicly logged at irclogs.ubuntu.com. more details at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCTermsOfService We have an un-logged channel at #ubuntu-us-ca-offtopic
[18:18] <pleia2> doh
[18:18] <MarkDude> lol
[18:18] <MarkDude> :D
[18:18] <jdeslip> at _______
[18:18] <jdeslip> :)
[18:18] <pleia2> lemme see precisely what is in the on-join message
[18:18] <pleia2> maybe we can move the TOS bit out
[18:19] <pleia2> hmm, can you see it via chanserv, or do I have to rejoin?
[18:19] <nuboon2age_> just because our privacy is constantly being violated does not mean by any stretch of the imagination
[18:19] <nuboon2age_> that we should give up our claims to our rights
[18:19] <nuboon2age_> or roll over and give up
[18:19] <nuboon2age_> on the contrary we need to fight for our rights
[18:20] <MarkDude> btw - The way things are here now. I dont feel the imperative that things be changed immediately. I feel that my voice is now listened to. That makes a big difference to me
[18:20] <nuboon2age_> our rights are not 'an illusion'
[18:20] <MarkDude> +1
[18:20] <nuboon2age_> they may not be maintained properly or even at all, but they remain our rights
[18:20] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: You were right that not anyone can log!  Freenode has terms to forbid it.  I bow to you in defeat.
[18:21] <pleia2> ok, TOS line is in the join message
[18:21] <MarkDude> lyz meet pleia2 , pleia2  meet lyz
[18:21] <MarkDude> lol
[18:21] <lyz> :)
[18:21] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: But, Ubuntu's terms clearly say you are agreeing to these channels being logged and public.
[18:21] <pleia2> there we go
[18:21] <jdeslip> beautiful
[18:22]  * MarkDude would still prefer nothing logged, and the OT channel not needed. But, after I talked to a few people, having th OT channel in the main topic was deemed- barely acceptable
[18:23] <MarkDude> Acceptable nonetheless :)
[18:23] <jdeslip> Is everyone happy now?  Can we forget all issues about logging/indexing now?
[18:24] <jdeslip> If not happy, at least willing to accept the current compromises?
[18:24] <MarkDude> that does not mean that I dont  still want to change it. I plan on doing so later. Realistically, the votes are not here to change that
[18:24] <pleia2> I saw this morning that nuboon2age_ is following up regarding indexing with the councils in a bug report, so it's not in our court anymore
[18:24] <MarkDude> jdeslip,  sue.
[18:24] <MarkDude> sure
[18:25] <MarkDude> Its much less stressful for myself since I lowered expectations ( and others also I imagine)
[18:26] <jdeslip> pleia2: Well, according to irc terms - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/TermsOfService - indexing is clearly allowed.  I find it doubtful the council/IRC team will change their mind on that.  But... who knows!
[18:27] <pleia2> yeah, so the bug report would be pushing for them to consider a policy change
[18:27] <jdeslip> Okiedokie
[18:30] <MarkDude> Maybe including that it is easier to join Fedora should. Ubuntu has MoinMoin, by anyones opinion that is harder than Media Wiki. You dont have to sign the CLA to get media sent to you. As much media as people need is made.
[18:30]  * MarkDude just sees them lowering the bar to get people involved- and Ubuntu raising it
[18:31] <MarkDude> They have time to sort this out tho- F14 is NOT ready for the average user on many levels :D
[18:31]  * MarkDude doubts F15 will either
[18:33] <MarkDude> yantrashilpi, So my job wants me to do a podcast, will you be the 1st interview?
[18:34] <MarkDude> Would be good to promote FOSS, if you want the 1st show could be used for both feeds
[18:41] <MarkDude> yantrashilpi, we can co-host the 1st if you want and maybe interview paulproteus pleia2 or jono or someone of high caliber like that :)
[18:42] <yantrashilpi> MarkDude: that sounds good. I've been rather busy with work these last few days so haven't moved on it much
[18:42] <yantrashilpi> What's the timeline?
[18:43] <yantrashilpi> cohosting sounds very good and we can see how it is received.
[18:43] <pleia2> ooh, zareason podcast?
[18:44] <yantrashilpi> pleia2: what do you mean zareason podcast?
[18:44] <MarkDude> yes
[18:44] <pleia2> MarkDude's job is at zareason
[18:45] <yantrashilpi> oh awesome!
[18:46] <MarkDude> it wont just be about ZA either.
[18:46] <MarkDude> The FOSS community in general will be a big part of it.
[18:47] <yantrashilpi> yes, I'm not familiar with the local FOSS community so that would be really good to have you sort of guide me in the waters.
[18:47] <yantrashilpi> well I should say not 'very' familiar
[18:48] <yantrashilpi> would love to do a good intro to the Ubuntu and FOSS communities in general.
[18:48] <yantrashilpi> not sure how to distribute that to an interested audience yet.
[18:48] <MarkDude> Or as I call it- the *power of the penguin*
[18:49] <yantrashilpi> oh hopefully not in the exorcist sense :)
[18:49] <yantrashilpi> the power of the penguin compells you!
[18:49] <MarkDude> Well for one- I plan on having Nixie Pixel help out- she has roughly 1 billion fans
[18:49] <MarkDude> maybe a little less
[18:49] <MarkDude> :)
[18:49] <yantrashilpi> wow!
[18:50] <pleia2> lol
[18:50] <adcoma> hey all!
[18:50] <pleia2> welcome adcoma
[18:51] <adcoma> thanks!
[18:51] <adcoma> i have a problem with d510mo...  with r8111dl network card, driver 8169.
[18:51] <adcoma>  on occasion it works and sometimes not
[18:52] <adcoma> http://amk1.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/realtek-8168-module-issue , This not work for me
[18:52] <adcoma> help me pleaseeeeeeeeee!!!!!!
[18:53] <pleia2> adcoma: does it work on some networks and not others, or the same network all the time?
[18:54] <adcoma> the same network!
[18:54] <adcoma> :(
[18:57] <pleia2> adcoma: might also want to try searching on ubuntuforums.org, there are a lot of users there and there might already be a thread about your chipset
[18:58] <adcoma> thanks will try!
[18:59] <jdeslip> Ya, ubuntuforums is great for this sort of thing
[19:12] <pleia2> if no one else gets to it before me, I'll do "Shortly After the Meeting" https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/MeetingChecklist tonight
[19:31] <MarkDude> Is the a wiki page for a podcast?
[19:38] <MarkDude> http://hackerpublicradio.org/eps.php?id=0601  ep0601 :: A community icecast and mumble server for recording podcasts
[19:38] <MarkDude> Some options for podcasting
[19:39] <mcgrof> howdy
[19:39] <pleia2> welcome mcgrof :)
[19:39] <mcgrof> thanks pleia2  :)
[19:39] <pleia2> MarkDude: california team wiki page? here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Podcast
[19:42] <yantrashilpi> MarkDude: pleia2 got it right... that's it.
[19:43] <mcgrof> hm, was that an earthquake?
[19:43] <mcgrof> lets see
[19:43] <mcgrof> guess not
[19:43] <MarkDude> Cool ty
[19:45] <MarkDude> Using his icecast server might be the easiest entry
[19:45] <MarkDude> Either that or trying to use the Twit cottage
[19:47] <akk> Are they in Davis, or Berkeley?
[19:48] <jdeslip> Petaluma I think
[20:22] <jdeslip> What do all you fine folks think about the Novell sale this morning?
[20:24] <akk> WARNING: Attempting to keep track of SuSE ownership can cause dizziness and confusion.
[20:27] <akk> I'm not really following the article on the register -- something about selling intellectual property to Microsoft?
[20:30] <jdeslip> akk: that is the part that worries me.  Cause doesn't Novell own the IP for UNIX.  I thought that was the result of all the SCO madness.
[20:30] <jdeslip> If Microsoft ends up with all the IP for UNIX - they will surely use it against Linux
[20:31] <jdeslip> Or at least as way to make people license Linux from them.
[20:32] <akk> So does anybody know if that's part of the IP supposedly about to get sold?
[20:35] <DarkwingDuck> nUboon2Age: You about?
[20:37] <DarkwingDuck> akk: we are on hold for that request for a bit...
[20:40] <pleia2> http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/11/22/how-ubuntu-builds-up-on-debian/
[20:40] <pleia2> great post, with statistics and everything :)
[20:40] <akk> DarkwingDuck: Okay, I'll chill.
[20:41] <DarkwingDuck> akk: I'll let you know.
[23:12] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: no bowing please.. :-)
[23:16]  * DarkwingDuck raises an eyebrow
[23:20]  * jdeslip was wrong about *anyone* being able to publish logs on Freenode - apparently Freenode has terms that only allow channel owners to...
[23:31] <jdeslip> Hey there are 4 paid apps in the software center now.
[23:32] <jdeslip> Just added Fluendo codec packs.
[23:33] <jdeslip> I previously bought Brukkon... I don't really recommend it ;)
[23:36] <jamalta> hm,. did the new theme break the planet's rss feed? http://planet.ubuntu.com/rss200.xml doesn't work
[23:36] <jamalta> not sure if it ever worked, this is the first time i'm trying to use the feed
[23:37] <jdeslip> I see that rww is a new #ubuntu Op!  Congrats rww wherever you are!
[23:43] <pleia2> jamalta: it should be http://planet.ubuntu.com/rss20.xml not 200
[23:44] <pleia2> so there is an error in the new theme, since it's pointing to 200
[23:45] <jamalta> pleia2: thank you :)
[23:46]  * pleia2 asks where the bug should be reported


[05:01] <NCommander> ScottK, Riddell, ping
[05:31] <ScottK> NCommander: Pong
[05:32] <NCommander> ScottK, feel like sponsoring kdegraphics?
[05:36] <ScottK> NCommander: Sure.  If it's going to work.
[05:36] <NCommander> Built it fully on ARM and amd64
[05:37] <ScottK> NCommander: OK.  Debdiff me or something.
[05:37] <NCommander> ScottK, https://code.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdegraphics/ubuntu
[05:37] <ScottK> Good enough
[05:39]  * NCommander is slowly working towards a KDE on ARM future :-)
[05:44] <ScottK> NCommander: Question for you: In the 2nd chunk of the patch, why double the first two appearances of radius and not the last?
[05:45] <NCommander> GCC interprets 1. to be a double
[05:45] <NCommander> It was only necessary to cast the qreal
[05:45] <NCommander> oh
[05:45] <NCommander> wait, second hulk
[05:46] <NCommander> ScottK, look more closely
[05:46] <NCommander> ScottK, I'm only changing the casts in the qMin function
[05:46] <ScottK> OK.
[05:46] <NCommander> (qMin is a C++ template, and templates require all types to be extactly the same, normally there is some give with float/double implicate casting)
[05:47]  * ScottK looks again.
[05:48] <ScottK> I think I vaguely get that.
[05:49] <NCommander> TBH, any other compiler would accept it
[05:49] <NCommander> GCC is just being braindead
[05:49] <NCommander> (normally floats will be implicately casted into doubles if a function takes only doubles)
[05:50] <NCommander> This implicate cast isn't happening however when the funciton is a template, and one of the arguments is a float, and another is a double
[06:30] <NCommander> ScottK, I'm probably going to lie down soonish, still need me assuming your test build successeds?
[06:31] <ScottK> NCommander: It just finished.  I'll be uploading momentarily.
[06:31]  * NCommander waves flag
[06:35] <ScottK> NCommander: Uploaded.  Thank you for your contribution to Kubuntu.
[06:35] <NCommander> yay
[06:42] <ScottK> NCommander: You're pushing this patch upstream, like the others, right?
[06:43] <NCommander> Yeah, I plan to file a bug
[06:44] <ScottK> OK.  It'd be great to get these into 4.2 before it branches to 4.3....
[10:40] <gnomefreak> what replaced libqt3-mt in jaunty?
[10:40] <Riddell> libqt4 ?
[10:40] <Riddell> libqt3-mt is still there
[10:43] <gnomefreak> i didnt see libqt4 but there were libqt4-ruby*
[10:44] <Riddell> there's lots of libqt4 packages
[10:45] <gnomefreak> yeah i saw i meant to say libqt4* but none had mt
[10:45] <Riddell> the -mt just means its compiled with multithreading which was optional in Qt 3, Qt 4 doesn't have it as an option
[10:47] <gnomefreak> ah
[10:48] <Riddell> Sime!
[10:48] <Sime> hi, and merry christmas.
[10:49] <Sime> i just got back from a snowboarding vacation.
[10:49] <Sime> (minor) broken left shoulder.
[10:49] <Riddell> erk
[10:50] <Sime> at least a couple of weeks of one handed typing
[10:50] <Riddell> where was that?  I don't remember .nl being great for snowboarding holidays
[10:50] <Sime> +physio
[10:50] <Sime> .fr
[10:50] <Sime> alpes
[10:50] <Sime> great snow + weather
[10:51] <Sime> almost got thru without probs,
[10:52] <Sime> all well in K-land?
[10:55] <Riddell> NCommander got pykde compiling on ARM
[10:55] <Sime> hey! cool
[10:55] <Sime> has he just got patches?
[10:55] <Riddell> it took him a while, he probably e-mailed you begging for help during his more desperate moments :)
[10:56] <Sime> i had already talked to him before xmas
[11:00] <Riddell> patches are in python-qt4 and kde4bindings https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-qt4 https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde4bindings
[11:01] <Sime> are you guys using 4,2+patches for your .debs?
[11:01] <Riddell> yes
[11:03] <Sime> cool, once it has been in the field for a while, we can commit on 4.2 branch.
[11:42] <Riddell> Sime: remind us again the state of pykde and kcontrol modules?
[11:56] <Sime> Riddell: should work in 4.2. there is even example code.
[12:50] <Riddell> Sime: ooh?  where?
[13:12] <chris062689> Hello!
[13:16] <Riddell> hi chris062689
[13:16] <chris062689> What's up?
[13:17] <chris062689> I just wanted to wish everyone a late xmas, and to wish you guys good luck on the KDE 4.2 upcoming release, hope you guys get the packages out quick, and they'll be nice and stable :D
[13:44] <Sime> Riddell: /trunk/KDE/kdebindings/python/pykde4/tools/kcmodule_example
[13:51] <seele> welcome back to work everyone :)
[13:53] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: gtk-qt-engine patch here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/95091/
[13:53] <JontheEchidna> \o everyone
[13:54] <JontheEchidna> you were right, most gtk-qt-engine problems are tiny, hidden bugs that cause highly noticable problems
[14:03] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: I've also just emailed the patch to the author
[14:05]  * jussi01 waves to JontheEchidna
[14:07] <JontheEchidna> btw, Kubuntu 8.10 is very fast on my dad's old
[14:07] <JontheEchidna> Dell Latitude D600
[14:07] <JontheEchidna> faster than my computer
[14:13] <JontheEchidna> nvidia graphics on linux ftl :(
[14:29] <Tonio_> hi there :)
[14:29] <nhandler> Hey Tonio_
[14:30] <Tonio_> nhandler: hi !
[14:30] <seele> Tonio_: hey, did colomar (Thomas) contact you about kpackagekit?  i think he was having a hard time getting it installed
[14:31] <seele> Tonio_: he is one of my usability interns and will help me review it
[14:31] <Tonio_> seele: don't remember getting an email from him
[14:32] <seele> Tonio_: hmm.. ok
[14:32] <Tonio_> seele: I'm currently moving to my new appartment, and everything will be finished on saturday, including getting internet at home :)
[14:32] <Tonio_> seele: I'm unavailable since then
[14:32] <seele> Tonio_: cool.. good luck moving
[14:32] <Tonio_> seele: lemme look :)
[14:33] <Tonio_> seele: got it
[14:34] <Tonio_> seele: I really have no time to check this with him..... I'll respond him about that, and we'll do the review on january :)
[14:35] <Tonio_> seele: thanks for reminding me :)
[14:35] <Tonio_> seele: appart from that, how life going ?
[14:46] <seele> Tonio_: good.. this past week was kindof slow because of the holiday.. i've got a ton of work to catch up on this week
[14:46] <seele> Tonio_: although most of it is open source stuff so that is good :)
[14:56] <Tonio_> seele: great ;)
[14:58] <nixternal> howdy Tonio_!
[14:58] <jpds> Tonio_: You going to FOSDEM by any chance?
[14:59] <Tonio_> jpds: it's beeing discussed within my company atm, that's possible, indeed :)
[14:59] <Tonio_> nixternal: heya !!!
[14:59]  * Tonio_ wonders why is moving to a new appartment is that complicated.....
[14:59] <Tonio_> so many phone calls to place...
[15:00] <jpds> Tonio_: Ah cool. Goo luck with the moving.
[15:00] <Tonio_> jpds: thanks ;)
[15:25] <Tonio_> seele: just emailed thomas, packages will ready within an hour for intrepid on my ppa, so that he can test...
[15:34] <seele> Tonio_: sweet
[15:35]  * seele hugs Tonio_
[15:35] <jussi01> seele: did you publish that quassel thing yet? :)
[15:35] <seele> jussi01: getting to it, just got off a phone call
[15:35] <jussi01> :)
[16:00] <seele> ack
[16:39] <seele> did we decide when the next kubuntu meeting will be?
[16:40] <nhandler> Yeah,Saturday January
[16:40] <nhandler> 3 2009 at 19:00 UTC
[16:41] <nhandler> apachelogger sent out an email about it
[16:41] <jjesse> seele: january 3 at 19:00 UTC
[17:38] <NCommander> Down to to four FTBFS in kde
[17:50] <cbr> that's strange.. powerdevil only handles dpms stuff for me after a suspend
[17:50] <cbr> at first boot it just doesnt
[17:51] <NCommander> cbr, I think dpms only goes when the module is loaded
[17:51] <NCommander> Maybe powerdevil isn't loading during startup
[17:53] <cbr> it is imo
[17:53] <cbr> you mean the kde module?
[18:10] <seele> ~kubotu twitter help
[18:10] <kubotu> incorrect usage, ask for help using 'kubotu: help twitter'
[18:11] <seele> ~kubotu: help twitter
[18:11] <kubotu> twitter status [nick] => show nick's (or your) status, use 'twitter friends status [nick]' to also show the friends' timeline | twitter update [status] => updates your status on twitter | twitter identify [username] [password] => ties your nick to your twitter username and password | twitter actions [on|off] => enable/disable twitting of actions (/me does ...)
[18:12] <seele> New blog post: Expert Review of Quassel 0.3.1 http://tinyurl.com/75aevt
[18:12]  * seele looks for lunch
[18:16] <NCommander> Damn it
[18:17] <NCommander> ScottK, your entries to P-a-s for HPPA broke the ARM build partially, the cli bits are not installable
[18:19] <jpds> seele: Nice work.
[18:20] <cbr> what does the "Keep window thumbnails: [Only for shown windows|Always|Never]" mean in desktop effects config dialog?
[18:54] <EgS> hi there :)
[18:54] <EgS> seele: I just finished reading your review of quassel. May I pm your for some questions?
[19:19] <codeclump> pacman -S kde
[19:22] <Tukon> seele, nice work on that quassel UI review
[19:22] <Tukon> spot on observations and easily actionable fixes
[19:22] <Tukon> it'd be nice to have a qt4 irc client for jaunty
[19:28] <EgS> most of the issues should be fixable. the reason for the lack of a toolbar is simply the lack of icons, meaning we need help on that one
[19:34] <jussi01> EgS: did we have a lack of response from the oxygen guys? or?
[19:34] <Tukon> EgS, thanks for all your work making it happen, seems that you're very involved with quassel development
[19:36] <EgS> Tukon: thanks :) It's always nice to see people using quassel. and even the consideration for kubuntu is a great opportunity for us :)
[19:36] <EgS> jussi01: afaik Sput wanted to talk to them... but dunno what came up there
[19:39] <jussi01> EgS: I just noticed this: http://techbase.kde.org/index.php?title=Projects/Oxygen/Missing_Icons
[19:40] <EgS> interessting... but I guess that's for pure kde apps
[19:41] <jussi01> I thought so at first, but are we not a "KDE4 related project"?  (Additionally it will help developers to make requests for icons that they need for KDE4 related projects. )
[19:42] <EgS> yeah especially with the kde integration sput was working on recently, we probably can call it KDE related
[19:42] <jussi01> EgS: there is also a section: Other 3rd party Application Icons
[20:04] <JontheEchidna> Check it, jockey KCM ui in python: http://imagebin.ca/view/kPt-9Ru.html
[20:06] <JontheEchidna> in 25 lines of code not counting the .ui file :P
[20:10] <Sime> good work
[20:21] <JontheEchidna> doesn't do anything yet, heh
[20:22] <JontheEchidna> Sime: Thanks for the example
[20:32] <LaserJock> Riddell: you're assigned to bug #24449 , I'm kind of not sure why as it's a Gtk/Gnome app. Is that a mistake?
[20:45] <Riddell> LaserJock: looks like a mistake
[20:46] <LaserJock> Riddell: heaven forbid a gtk app starts with a "k" ;-)
[20:46] <LaserJock> Riddell: want me to unassign you?
[20:47] <seele> EgS: feel free to give me questions
[21:06] <Riddell> LaserJock: go ahead
[21:39] <NCommander> Riddell, in the mood to sponsor something?
[21:40] <Riddell> NCommander: mibby, at the wrong computer just now but I could be persuaded to move
[21:40] <NCommander> Well, I still have to do a non-ports test build
[21:41] <NCommander> that won't take long so probably 30ish minutes
[21:42] <Riddell> NCommander: did you talk with Sime about pykde and ARM?
[21:42] <NCommander> Yup
[22:08] <ScottK-palm> NCommander: Have you looked at kdeartwork on armel yet?
[22:12] <NCommander> Not yet
[22:13] <ScottK-palm> OK.  I just did a retry on it and it failed again.  All I had was the web version of the build log as it happened.
[22:14] <ScottK-palm> I missed the actual failure, but did see at least some kvetching about qreal type alignment earlier in the build.
[22:15] <ScottK-palm> NCommander: I'll be back home tonight and so in a better position to do sponsoring.
[22:17] <NCommander> ok
[22:27] <NCommander> Riddell, kdeaccessibility changes in bazaar