[00:04] <Pici> jrib: Heres one for the list:
[00:04] <Pici> 19:04:06 <airtonix> tanner, and i disagree that it is excessive... terraforming a planet is exessive... editing a menu is trivial
[00:14] <jrib> Pici: nice
[01:21] <ikonia> hello JayCool
[01:21] <JayCool> im sorry dude i just didnt know if you where in charge
[01:22] <jrib> JayCool: do you understand why the rules exist in #ubuntu?
[01:22] <ikonia> JayCool: it doesn't matter -
[01:22] <JayCool> you guys kept going back and forth
[01:22] <ikonia> JayCool: if I'm an op or not, users are asking you to stop messing around
[01:22] <ikonia> JayCool: you had warnings in the channel, private message warnings, and where kicked 3 times
[01:22] <JayCool> what did i do?
[01:22] <ikonia> JayCool: repeated offtopic comments, bot abuse, just trying to be a nusance
[01:23] <JayCool> im sorry i wont happen again :(
[01:23] <ikonia> you've had 3 warnings (kicks) warnings in the channel and a warning in private message,
[01:23] <ikonia> for the moment you can take some time out of the channel to think about how you behave in the channel, and how you respond to users, any users, not just operators
[01:24] <JayCool> i only got 1 private message
[01:24] <ikonia> yes
[01:24] <JayCool> one more change please!
[01:25] <ikonia> no
[01:25] <ikonia> you can take some time out to think about how you respond to people in the channel
[01:25] <ikonia> come back in 24 hours and we'll discuss removing your ban
[01:25] <JayCool> i woudnt kick you from my channel :(
[01:25] <ikonia> are you aware of the ubuntu code of conduct and channel guidelines ?
[01:26] <JayCool> yes and i was supporting individuals , sorry for the issues
[01:27] <ikonia> !guidelines | JayCool
[01:27] <ikonia> JayCool: please refresh yourself with them, and come back in 24 hours
[01:28] <JayCool> Save me Popey!
[01:28] <ikonia> JayCool: do you understand ?
[01:29] <JayCool> yes. i will do that. Just so you know this is a shared IP address your blocking everyone at the library now:(
[01:29] <ikonia> JayCool: that's fine
[01:30] <mkanyicy77> i am banned now i end up here?
[01:30] <ikonia> JayCool: please cme back in 24 hours and we'll discss removing the ban
[01:30] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: be with you very shortly, if you could hang on for a moment please
[01:30] <JayCool> ikonia do you work for canonical ?
[01:30] <mkanyicy77> is this the counselling is kicked victims?
[01:30] <ikonia> JayCool: that's not important
[01:30] <JayCool> because i do
[01:30] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: please be patient for a few moments and we'll get to you
[01:31] <ikonia> JayCool: I think we are done here - please come back in 24 hours
[01:31] <JayCool> ok sorry bro. bye bye see ya soon
[01:31] <ikonia> JayCool: bye
[01:32] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: apologies for the delay, thank you for joining
[01:32] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: I wanted to talk to you about your recent behaviour in #ubuntu and try to resolve any problems
[01:33] <mkanyicy77> are you implying that you had no other alternatives at your disposal?
[01:33] <ikonia> no
[01:34] <mkanyicy77> let me speak up my mind to you: you have the power to kick people, use it with care
[01:34] <ikonia> I do
[01:34] <ikonia> I suggest you look at the reason you where kicked
[01:34] <mkanyicy77> which is?
[01:34] <ikonia> you where repeatedly asked to stop discussing something in channel, to stop using the bot and to keep with the channel topic
[01:35] <ikonia> I had to mute you to stop talking about the topic, and I attempted to talk to you in private message, you didn't respond so I removed you from the channel with a message to join this channel, which you now have done
[01:35] <mkanyicy77> I was greeting people who just come, and you treat me like i was insulting people
[01:36] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: no - you where using the bot for every user that joined, another user asked you to stop/tone it down a little, so you gave a smart response of !hi to the user asking you to stop using !hi
[01:36] <mkanyicy77> you had an old PM and you never updated it
[01:36] <ikonia> I have not had a pm from you
[01:37] <mkanyicy77> your statement was not a question, there was nothing i could say about it or you wanted me to bow in front of you and say sorry?
[01:37] <ikonia> I'm more interested in you keeping with the channel's topic and just claming down your use of the bot and how you respond to other users requests
[01:37] <mkanyicy77> so do i
[01:37] <ikonia> great
[01:37] <mkanyicy77> ive seen people who were restless and using strong language not kicked
[01:37] <ikonia> all you need to do is just calm down a little on the bot, cut back on the smart answers/jokes and keep with the topic
[01:38] <mkanyicy77> you have a nerve to justify yourself
[01:38] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: people do get missed, no-one is perfect
[01:38] <ikonia> I'm not justifying myself, I'm just explaining the situation to you
[01:38] <mkanyicy77> i mean at sometimes people came and blackmailed us to prompt help
[01:39] <mkanyicy77> thats when you were supposed to jump in
[01:39] <ikonia> I have no idea what you're talking about, but it's not relevant to this discussion
[01:39] <ikonia> I'm just interested in your behaviour in the channel
[01:39] <mkanyicy77> all you do is snooping at everyday semantics
[01:39] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: are you aware of the channels rules/policies ?
[01:39] <mkanyicy77> i should be asking you
[01:40] <mkanyicy77> i know it for years
[01:40] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: ok, so do you think you can keep with it in future ?
[01:40] <mkanyicy77> why do you think i am here
[01:40] <ikonia> because I put it in your kick message to join
[01:40] <mkanyicy77> does it look like its my first day here ?
[01:40] <ikonia> yes
[01:40] <ikonia> or you wouldn't behave as you where doing in the channel
[01:40] <mkanyicy77> look back at the logs
[01:41] <ikonia> I don't need to, I don't mind if its your first day or your 1000'th day, I just want you to follow the rules of the channel please.
[01:41] <mkanyicy77> i don't know why you think your behaviour is the better one in terms of the rules i know
[01:42] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: please stop trying to deflect the fact that you where not following the rules (I've outlined why) and either accept to follow them in future - or not
[01:42] <mkanyicy77> look, i will not step back and act like i was wrong when  it was you who was wrong
[01:43] <mkanyicy77> you were unfair, face it
[01:43] <ikonia> ok - then I suggest you review the logs and come back when you can see when you refused to stop talking about topics and when you where rude to other users by messing with the bots
[01:44] <mkanyicy77> rude?
[01:44] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: re-read what you said to rwww
[01:44] <ikonia> rww
[01:44] <mkanyicy77> you just chased me without a ball
[01:44] <mkanyicy77> that's was sacarsm
[01:44] <ikonia> rww was just trying to keep the channel flowing and stop you messing with the bot, you kept on at him to clam down and gave smart answer
[01:44] <mkanyicy77> and i am not here to lecture everyone before I joke
[01:45] <ikonia> all you needed to do was say "sure no problem"
[01:45] <ikonia> it's not a joke channel
[01:45] <ikonia> I asked you to stop - and you kept on
[01:45] <mkanyicy77> who said it is
[01:45] <mkanyicy77> i joke, not because its a joke channel
[01:45] <ikonia> you suggested it was saying you where making jokes/sarcasm
[01:45] <mkanyicy77> like you are breathing
[01:45] <mkanyicy77> is it a breathing channel then?
[01:45] <ikonia> ok - I'll make it clear then
[01:45] <ikonia> jokes are not appropriate in channel, please don't do that in future
[01:46] <mkanyicy77> you do not understand,
[01:46] <ikonia> more so when they can be seen as rude towards another user or provokotive
[01:46] <mkanyicy77> your literal interpretation is wasting both our times
[01:47] <ikonia> your inability to just accept the rules is wasting your time from accessing #ubuntu
[01:47] <mkanyicy77> ikonia, i am conscious of my actions and I follow the rules of Ubuntu, period
[01:47] <ikonia> I understand how it can be easy to slip up, that's why I'm trying to be clear
[01:47] <mkanyicy77> you want be to back down and act like a criminal while I am a victim
[01:47] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: then please don't make jokes, please don't be offtopic, please don't mess with the bot, and please try to be a little more thoughtful towards other users requests
[01:48] <ikonia> I don't think you're a criminial
[01:48] <ikonia> I just wanted you to follow the channels guidelines
[01:48] <mkanyicy77> bring back to the channel
[01:48] <mkanyicy77> i am here to serve my people
[01:48] <mkanyicy77> not to chit chat all day
[01:49] <mkanyicy77> the rules are in my head
[01:49] <mkanyicy77> i am not rude
[01:49] <ikonia> ok - well I think you need to go away for a while 24 hours as I'm note convinced you're going to follow the rules based on our discussion
[01:49] <mkanyicy77> i am welcoming people
[01:49] <mkanyicy77> what is wrong with all these?
[01:50] <mkanyicy77> that is not fair
[01:50] <mkanyicy77> because it means that you want people not to express themselves
[01:50] <mkanyicy77> the system should be democratic
[01:50] <Pici> We ask that people not abuse the bot.  We would not like to have to take away bot factoids like !hi because people overuse them.
[01:51] <mkanyicy77> here we go
[01:51] <Pici> Is there a problem?
[01:51] <mkanyicy77> now how does !hi deserve a person to be away for 24hours?
[01:51] <mkanyicy77> yes there is a problem
[01:52] <mkanyicy77> you know the problem, don't you?
[01:52] <Pici> mkanyicy77: From what ikonia is saying is that you were using !hi to everyone who joined and continued after being asked not to?
[01:52] <Pici> I haven't looked at the logs myself, but does that sound accurate/
[01:52] <Pici> ?
[01:52] <mkanyicy77> yes
[01:52] <mkanyicy77> i agree
[01:52] <mkanyicy77> but I changed from that
[01:53] <ikonia> you argued about it in the channel
[01:53] <mkanyicy77> he banned me about an hour later
[01:53] <ikonia> you gave clever responses to rww who was just asking you to stop
[01:53] <ikonia> I didn't ban you
[01:53] <mkanyicy77> no, he banned other people
[01:53] <ikonia> I kicked you to stop you talking
[01:53] <mkanyicy77> i argued about them
[01:53] <ikonia> you came back and started going off, I muted you - tried to talk to you in pm, you didn't respond so I removed you from the channel asking you to join this channel, and you did
[01:53] <mkanyicy77> oh?
[01:54] <mkanyicy77> no,
[01:54] <mkanyicy77> as i said, your pm just said please do not use !hi too much
[01:54] <mkanyicy77> what was i supposed to reply saying?
[01:55] <ikonia> no it didn't
[01:55] <ikonia> I asked you to stop talking and join #ubuntu-ops to discuss it - you did not
[01:55] <mkanyicy77> and besides, you took the whole hour before you ban me
[01:55] <ikonia> I didn't take an hour
[01:55] <mkanyicy77> and i already changed from that since i read your pm
[01:55] <ikonia> I muted you while trying to pm you - you didn't respond in a reasonable time so I removed you - and all of a sudden you woke up
[01:56] <ikonia> I also pm'd you on your other nick mkanyician
[01:56] <ikonia> so I did try on the two you where using
[01:56] <ikonia> you changed nick to mkanyicy77 after I kicked you
[01:56] <ikonia> so you had not changed nicks
[01:56] <Pici> hrm.
[01:57] <mkanyicy77> this is just not fair
[01:57] <mkanyicy77> not fair is even undermining the description
[01:57] <mkanyicy77> ikonia, you failed to use your powers appropriately, and you had to admit about it
[01:58] <ikonia> I've not "admited" anything ???
[01:58] <mkanyicy77> ikonia, yes you havent
[01:58] <mkanyicy77> instead you've been projecting your flaws to me
[01:58] <mkanyicy77> and i am not willing to take them
[01:59] <Seeker`> sorry, is this discussion going anywhere?
[01:59] <ikonia> I'm not willing to discuss this any more at this time, which is why I suggest you come back in 24 hours when you've had chance to think about it
[01:59] <mkanyicy77> Seeker`, are you in hurry?
[02:00] <Seeker`> yes. yes I am.
[02:00] <mkanyicy77> ikonia, its the 24 hours that i think you are even far more mistaken
[02:00] <mkanyicy77> your are free to go, Seeker`
[02:00] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: you're welcome to think I'm mistaken, but this won't progress for 24 hours with me now, as I think we've excausted all discussion
[02:01] <mkanyicy77> why do you think that?
[02:01] <mkanyicy77> oh, your please join #ubuntu-ops meant this?
[02:01] <ikonia> because I don't believe you are genuine in what you're saying and have no real interest in rejoining the channel,
[02:01] <mkanyicy77> what do i need to prove to you?
[02:02] <ikonia> I believe at this moment in time you're just trying to argue for fun, as if you wanted to join the channel again , you'd accept your behaviour was wrong and try not to do it again
[02:02] <ikonia> that's my stance on it at the moment based on the discussio
[02:02] <ikonia> discussion
[02:02] <mkanyicy77> watch me like a hawk and ban me when get off the line for the whole month
[02:02] <mkanyicy77> how about that?
[02:02] <ikonia> no, you're banned now, and I don't see a reason for changing it
[02:02] <mkanyicy77> that is why i am here
[02:02] <mkanyicy77> to convince you to change it
[02:03] <mkanyicy77> and everybody knows you are already convinced
[02:03] <ikonia> I gave you multiple chances at the start of this convesation to understand why you where removed and you chose to argue it and continue you argue it and try to deflect attention from yourself on to me, which appeared to be for the fun of an anrgument
[02:03] <ikonia> so I'm going to leave it for 24 hours
[02:03] <mkanyicy77> yaay
[02:03] <mkanyicy77> 24hrs?
[02:03] <mkanyicy77> come on!
[02:03] <mkanyicy77> thats too much!
[02:03] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: I'm not willing to discuss it any more at this time, please leave and come back in 24 hours
[02:04] <mkanyicy77> i am not willing to let you be left unwilling to discuss this
[02:04] <elky> We can make it 48hrs if you want.
[02:04] <mkanyicy77> and if you are seeing my efforts in this discussion then mhhmm
[02:04] <ikonia> mkanyicy77: please read the topic of this channel. I will not particiapte in this discussion any further at this time
[02:04] <mkanyicy77> what topic
[02:04] <elky> /topic
[02:05] <mkanyicy77> elky, do try to be smart
[02:05] <mkanyicy77> its 24
[02:05] <mkanyicy77> but that is not fine
[02:05] <mkanyicy77> making it 48 will be against the law
[02:05] <Seeker`> !ops
[02:21] <ardchoille> I type in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ and get redirected to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid/Homosapien
[02:21] <ardchoille> What's up?
[02:22] <ardchoille> How do I alert the ubuntu wiki folks about this?
[02:23] <jrib> ardchoille: hmm, not here
[02:23] <Pici> Works fine here too
[02:23] <jrib> ardchoille: are you logged in?
[02:23] <ardchoille> yes
[02:23]  * jrib waits 2 minutes to be logged in
[02:23] <ardchoille> I don't remember setting a home page
[02:23]  * jrib has terrible memories of 56k days
[02:24] <ardchoille> jrib:  ouch
[02:24] <jrib> ardchoille: works ok here logged in or not
[02:24] <ardchoille> might be my DNS
[02:24] <ardchoille> logging out worked
[02:25] <ardchoille> logged back in, works fine now
[02:25] <ardchoille> weird. Thanks anyway
[02:25] <Pici> In the future, the folks in #ubuntu-doc might be the people to talk too
[02:26] <ardchoille> Pici: Ah, thanks for that.
[03:21] <Dominian> casllab was just muted and removed from ##linux FYI
[03:21] <Dominian> its ballsac
[04:13] <bazhang> mkanyicy ban dodging
[04:13] <bazhang> ah he left after the comment
[07:07] <Myrtti> oo, what fun
[07:12] <jussi01> o/
[07:27]  * Tm_T lost his pc this morning
[07:27] <Tm_T> jussi01: so this iBook is all I got now, thanks once again <3
[07:28] <jussi01> Tm_T: YW. I still have osx disks on my desk somewhere...
[07:30] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[07:33] <Myrtti> !pm > kingsofleon1820
[08:10] <Myrtti> some weird fluctuation in the fabric of IRC lately
[08:10] <Myrtti> all the nutjobs and weird peeps in #ubuntu
[08:10] <wgrant> Yes... they scare me.
[08:11] <jussi01> wait, I thought the nutjobs were in here? :P :P :P
[08:12] <Myrtti> hm, point to you
[08:12]  * jussi01 hugs Myrtti
[08:12] <Myrtti> I have been having dreams of nuking the GuadaLinexs users ISP facility to ground
[08:13] <Myrtti> so I guess I qualify as a nutjob
[08:13] <jussi01> Myrtti: btw, was real nice to have you and Dunc come up the other week.
[08:13] <Myrtti> :->
[08:14] <jussi01> hey highvoltage, around?
[08:20] <Myrtti> nnngggh
[08:22]  * jussi01 hugs Myrtti again
[09:26]  * MenZa joins in on the Myrttihug.
[09:27] <elky> GO AWAY, SHE'S MY MYRTTI
[09:27]  * elky steals Myrtti all for her own.
[09:27] <indus> hi guys please keep an eye on #ubuntu
[09:27] <MenZa> indus: thanks :)
[09:27] <MenZa> elky: Butbut :(
[09:28] <elky> MINE!
[09:28]  * MenZa whimpers.
[09:28] <Myrtti> eh?
[09:28] <MenZa> Myrtti: You're being fought over!
[09:29] <Myrtti> whoa @ #ubuntu
[09:29]  * elky raises an eyebrow at ikonia.
[09:29] <elky> what the heck was that?
[09:29] <ikonia> ??
[09:30] <Myrtti> oh, crap
[09:30] <Myrtti> dentist
[09:30]  * elky cuddles Myrtti.
[09:30] <ikonia> it will be fine
[09:31] <ikonia> fester64x2 was the "josh" guy from last night
[09:32] <ikonia> no he wasnt - I'm wrong
[10:11] <highvoltage> jussi01: am now
[12:50] <Tm_T> pleia2: about your post in u-irc ml, we should do attack alarms in -irc channel too, would that solve the need?
[12:51] <pleia2> Tm_T: it's more subtle than that
[12:51] <Tm_T> I know
[12:51] <Myrtti> huhwhat
[12:51] <Tm_T> but in overall, we should use -irc more
[12:51] <pleia2> making the ban tracker public and useful would help
[12:52] <pleia2> then when someone joins -women and acts funky we could look up if they've been trouble elsewhere and remove them before they hurt our community
[12:52] <Tm_T> true that, and work is going on for it
[12:52] <pleia2> instead of having to relearn everything ops here know
[12:52] <Tm_T> aye
[12:54] <Myrtti> does anyone have overmacht-English-overmacht dictionary? I'm a bit loss what he tries to say in -ot
[12:56] <Tm_T> pleia2: so bantracker would solve the thing?
[12:56] <Tm_T> for that need atleast
[12:57] <pleia2> Tm_T: it would help, nothing will be able to replace skimming this channel for rapid fire abusive users
[12:57] <Myrtti> right, I'm also officially not getting what aaaoooaaa is about on #ubuntu
[12:58] <Tm_T> pleia2: roger, I'm all for having ops sit here and in -irc
[12:58] <Tm_T> totally open doors would not be good IMO
[12:59] <elky> pleia2, can you make sqlite suck less? :P
[12:59] <Tm_T> and I agree with atoponce that we, especially I, should try not to be intimidating
[13:00] <pleia2> elky: it's not really my job to make the technology work :) I am just explaining what would be helpful
[13:01] <jussi01> elky: she is pleia2, not supergirl... and Im not even sure supergirl could sort that
[13:01] <Tm_T> haha
[13:01] <ikonia> I wonder the options to port it to mysql and look at multisite-write replication
[13:01] <Myrtti> oh look, it's the scruffy lookin nerf herder ;-)
[13:01] <Tm_T> jussi01: well, someone might consider princess Leia ver.2 as supergirl...
[13:01] <elky> pleia2, yeah i know :P
[13:02] <Tm_T> Myrtti: nerfs... yuck
[13:02] <TheSheep> ikonia: multisite replication w mysql?
[13:03] <ikonia> TheSheep: mysql replication, with multiple write nodes
[13:03] <MenZa> Tm_T: +1 on the intimidating bit
[13:03] <MenZa> that's the sole problem I'm seeing with this channel, tbh
[13:03] <ikonia> TheSheep: when a box goes down we currently suffer from using either a read only or out of date copy
[13:04] <Myrtti> I continue to ponder the benefits of being flooded with hecklers
[13:04] <MenZa> ikonia: I download ubottu.db hourly
[13:04] <TheSheep> ikonia: using mysqlproxy?
[13:04] <Tm_T> MenZa: and no amount of idlers would fix that
[13:04] <MenZa> Tm_T: agreed
[13:04] <ikonia> TheSheep: that's one way, there is the cluster option which I believe can now do multi-write
[13:04] <MenZa> which is why I'm not fond of any of the current propositions
[13:04] <Tm_T> yea
[13:05] <Tm_T> topyli said it well
[13:05]  * MenZa might drop his formal attitude a bit for a more "yo, sup"-kinda attitude
[13:05] <ikonia> MenZa: the danger with that is that people then miss-quote you or use it against you
[13:05] <Tm_T> MenZa: your soup -attitude?
[13:06] <Myrtti> and including the missunderstandings due to language barriers
[13:06] <MenZa> ikonia: well, that was a bit of hyperbole. I could substitute "Hi $nick, how can we help you today?" with "Hey $nick - anything we can do for you?"
[13:06] <ikonia> MenZa: that's fine, but when it gets into a discussion about the problem in the channel/user it's thrown back at you
[13:06] <MenZa> Not that it *really* makes a difference, but I can, to an extent, agree with the intimidation/elitist issues some people are pointing out, and would love to be rid of them
[13:06] <ikonia> back in 2
[13:06] <MenZa> ikonia: I don't see how the above could be used against me :P
[13:07] <MenZa> unless someone was really silly.
[13:15] <ikonia> need to be %101 clear
[13:18] <tsimpson> MenZa: part of the "problem" is that ops are, by definition, an "elite" group of people
[13:18] <tsimpson> because we need to be
[13:19] <tsimpson> though there is probably more we can do to make that not impact users too much
[13:20] <Tm_T> we should stick with 'be a good examp
[13:20] <Tm_T> le' mantra
[13:24] <Myrtti> heads up, we've got russian mirc warriors
[13:24] <Myrtti> might hit the fan any moment now
[13:25] <Tm_T> thanks
[13:30] <Myrtti> anyone using Konversation anymore? sebsebseb reports that quiets show up on it as giving channel ownership
[13:30] <Tm_T> Myrtti: yes, many
[13:31] <Tm_T> Myrtti: I'll pass that on
[13:31] <Myrtti> [15:28] <sebsebseb> surely it shoudn't say that, the floodbot has done it,  and then your doing it as well [13:25] *** Myrtti gives  channel owner privileges to Fatality!*@*.
[13:35] <tsimpson> I think someone already told sho about it, or were going to tell him
[13:35] <Myrtti> Tm_T: could you message him? he's having a flaky day
[13:36] <Tm_T> Myrtti: Seb?
[13:36] <Myrtti> yeah
[13:37] <Myrtti> I feel like playing Banzai the game
[13:37] <Myrtti> "how long will they stay in the channel?! bets in NAO!"
[13:38] <Myrtti> an the answer was one minute!
[14:01] <Myrtti> AL^3QRAB heads up
[14:08] <Myrtti> that was fun
[14:08] <jussi01> lovely.
[14:09] <Pici> Anyone want to try their chance at telling hamzaatova1 to be less annoying?
[14:09] <Myrtti> christel, would you please have someone look at one ip
[14:10] <christel> hmm?
[14:13] <jussi01> Ladies and gents, as part of the op changes we should ahve a few people joining here in the near future who will need +v added. (as ops in core chans are now required to idle here). if someone needs +v, please refer them to any of the ircc. Cheers!
[14:14] <elky> Eh?
[14:16] <Tm_T> jussi01: even if is op in one core channel?
[14:17] <jussi01> Tm_T: correct. its in the op requirements doc
[14:17] <jussi01> core chans are defined here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/Scope
[14:17] <Tm_T> oh, then I did read it wrong, I thought that was only requirement if one is part of core-ops team
[14:18] <Tm_T> jussi01: anyway, poke me when core-ops team is open for applications (;
[14:18] <jussi01> Tm_T: still a bit more documentation to write for that
[14:19] <Pici> is !dist-ugprade worded well, or does it need a little bit of a rewrite to be clearer?
[14:19] <Pici> !dist-upgrade
[14:19] <Tm_T> btw, anyone know what is current channel limit?
[14:19] <Pici> Tm_T: 120
[14:20] <Tm_T> Pici: roger, so not hitting that yet
[14:20] <Tm_T> I assume there's no way to get it higher
[14:20] <Pici> I'm not sure, you'd have to bug staff
[14:20] <Pici> I'm hovering near half of that
[14:21] <jussi01> !mint
[14:22] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[14:24] <jussi01> !mint =~ s/#remote-exploit/#backtrack-linux/
[14:24] <Myrtti> oh, have they changed channel?
[14:24] <Pici> !-mint
[14:24] <jussi01> oh duh
[14:24] <Pici> yah
[14:24] <jussi01> !derivatives
[14:24] <jussi01> !derivatives =~ s/#remote-exploit/#backtrack-linux/
[14:24] <jussi01> !derivatives
[14:25] <jussi01> Myrtti: seems so
[14:26] <Myrtti> reading the mailing list makes me depressed
[14:26] <Myrtti> time for hot chocolate, I think.
[14:30] <genii> Mmmmmm hot chocolate
[14:50] <MenZa> The mailing list makes me want coffee.
[14:50] <MenZa> Lots and lots of coffee.
[14:51] <bazhang> ha
[14:51] <MenZa> jussi01: !derivatives =~ s/crunchbang /CrunchBang /
[14:52] <Pici> !derivatives =~ s/crunchbang /CrunchBang /
[14:52] <MenZa> Thankye, Pici.
[15:02] <genii> MenZa: Aye
[15:03] <genii> "The mailing list makes me want coffee"
[15:03]  * genii makes a large pot of it
[15:03]  * MenZa reads, shudders.
[15:03] <bazhang> everything makes you want coffee :)
[15:03] <MenZa> Yes... but this is hard to swallow.
[15:04] <bazhang> uh not you MenZa :)
[15:04] <MenZa> Not me personally.
[15:04] <MenZa> Oh, genii.
[15:04] <MenZa> Well, me too.
[15:04]  * MenZa hugs genii.
[15:04] <bazhang> the coffee bit :)
[15:04] <MenZa> heheh
[15:10] <genii> At any rate I don't think spawning new channels for observers is an answer
[15:13] <bazhang> CarlFK, hi
[15:13] <CarlFK> hi
[15:13] <CarlFK> what is a "core op" ?
[15:14] <ikonia> core ubuntu channels #ubuntu / #kubuntu / #xubuntu etc
[15:16] <Pici> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/Scope?action=show&redirect=IrcTeam/Scope
[15:16] <MTecknology> So I just tried to reply to that big thread with my own personal opinion and it was lost... apparently I found a bug somewhere...
[15:17] <MenZa> MTecknology: Eh? What was lost? Where? What?
[15:17] <MTecknology> My thought was -ops get's +m and ops get +o; then anyone can talk in here to ops but there won't be any chit chat..
[15:17] <MenZa> Noone can talk if there's +m :)
[15:18] <MTecknology> +z is applied to this channel already
[15:18] <MTecknology> MenZa: I spent an hour writing an email, I got logged out of my openbox session as the email was sending
[15:19] <MenZa> MTecknology: Ow.
[15:19] <MenZa> MTecknology: If +z is applied, then how can I see what you're saying? :)
[15:19] <MenZa> Oh, wait
[15:19] <MenZa> +zm combo
[15:19] <MTecknology> +mz ... lol "M"en"Z"a ... would let anyone coming in talk to anyone that's +o and anyone +o can talk to anyone
[15:19] <MenZa> Aye; I believe it's already been mentioned in Juha's original e-mail.
[15:20] <MTecknology> I missed that then
[15:20] <MTecknology> I also mentioned that -irc is a great place for any other ops to discuss issues and learn how to handle things better.
[15:20] <Tm_T> yes'
[15:21] <MTecknology> I think some ops forget that the channel is used - but it is under used...
[15:21]  * MenZa nods
[15:21] <MenZa> Man, that thread is growing huge.
[15:21] <MTecknology> It's also a great place for ban forwards in non-core channels
[15:21] <MTecknology> I've used it for that
[15:22] <MTecknology> then I compared #ubuntu-ircc to #freenode-staff
[15:22] <topyli> MenZa, the next meeting is two weeks away. the thread has plenty of time to grow still! :)
[15:22] <MenZa> topyli: heh
[15:22] <MenZa> topyli: That's what I'm afraid of.
[15:23] <MenZa> Mostly because it's going slightly offtopic.
[15:23] <Tm_T> I haven't had chance to write my thoughts yet
[15:23] <MenZa> topyli: Date of next meeting?
[15:23] <Tm_T> but when I do, free hugs available
[15:23] <MenZa> 13th
[15:23] <MenZa> Right
[15:23] <topyli> it's mostly growing because it's a cesspool of all sorts of suggestions. if we were on topic (no-idle policy), things might be just a little bit easier
[15:24] <MenZa> absolutely.
[15:24] <bazhang> ha. Chinese New Year's Eve
[15:24] <MenZa> \o/
[15:24] <MenZa> Happy new year, bazhang!
[15:24] <topyli> instead, we're talking about whether or not we're friendly
[15:24] <bazhang> the 13th
[15:24] <MenZa> topyli: aye.
[15:25] <Tm_T> topyli: I'm not surprised
[15:26] <MenZa> topyli: As I understand Pricey's suggestion with the loungy thing you replied to, the structure would be what exactly? With what channels serving what purpose?
[15:26] <MenZa> Pricey, you're more than welcome to jump in on this one too :)
[15:26] <CarlFK> I read in there "now *every* core op is required to be there [here]"  so I am guessing there are some new rules I should know about.  anyone know what I am talking about?
[15:26] <MenZa> CarlFK: Well, it's pretty simple. Core ops are required to idle here. )
[15:26] <MenZa> :)
[15:27] <CarlFK> MenZa: im wondering what else I missed.
[15:27] <MTecknology> my opinion in the email came to: -ops +mz; -ops ops +o; allow idle; utilize -irc as appropriate; the channels already have their purpose pretty well defined here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam#Meet%20us
[15:27] <Tm_T> tsimpson: msg me about those launchpad team renewals with explanation when you have time, please
[15:28] <MTecknology> also that the channels are used mostly appropriately and -irc is under utilized
[15:28] <Tm_T> I really don't see how allowing people to idle here would solve anything
[15:28] <topyli> MenZa, how i see it: the lounge channel would be a non-logged ops lounge for everything that doesn't involve users. bot tips. how to use auto_bleh.pl. the weather in denmark. whether bourbon is real whiskey or not. mentoring new ops. most of the stuff we have here now
[15:29] <MTecknology> And.. should -irc be the place where this discussion takes place?
[15:29] <Pici> -irc is -ops for non-core channels.
[15:29] <MTecknology> Pici: but -irc allows idling for anyone
[15:29] <MenZa> topyli: And the mediation/dispute resolution channel would be open?
[15:30] <Pici> I'd be willing to trial letting idlers in here for a month, but I don't think it will go well.
[15:30] <topyli> MenZa, no idea. maybe we'll move everything to queries and disputes suddenly cease to exist!
[15:30] <MenZa> well, I like the idea of a seperate channel.
[15:31] <MTecknology> anyway- I voiced my opinion; little as mine matters; ttyal
[15:31] <MenZa> all opinions matter :(
[15:31] <Pici> I don't like the idea of moving everything to queries.  I like being able to see that topyli is being a jerk to a user and being able to take him aside to talk to him.
[15:31] <Tm_T> I really think all ops should be in -irc, core or not
[15:31] <MenZa> Tm_T: Agreed.
[15:31] <Tm_T> Pici: yes
[15:31]  * MenZa checks to see if he's in it.
[15:31] <MenZa> whoops.
[15:31] <topyli> Pici, indeed
[15:31] <MenZa> It's on my autojoin list, but I have so many channels to join it leaves some out.
[15:32] <MenZa> Including -ops.
[15:32] <MenZa> Pici: I agree.
[15:32] <MenZa> Pici: For the record, your intrusion in ikonia's dispute resolution earlier was not uncalled for, in my opinion.
[15:32] <Tm_T> MenZa: leaves out?
[15:32] <MenZa> Tm_T: Doesn't join them. Creates the window and everything, but it doesn't join them.
[15:33] <CarlFK> MenZa: I think freenode limits you to 20 channels
[15:33] <Pici> CarlFK: its 120 now
[15:33] <CarlFK> woa.
[15:33] <MenZa> CarlFK: I have a usermode that sets my limit abit hig--really, Pici?
[15:33] <Tm_T> MenZa: why it doesn't join to them?
[15:33] <MenZa> AWESOME.
[15:33] <MenZa> Tm_T: Iono.
[15:33] <CarlFK> MenZa: you are in way too many channels :)
[15:33] <Tm_T> CarlFK: I'm in roughly 60 channels or something
[15:33] <MenZa> 230-ish.
[15:34] <Pici> :O
[15:34] <CarlFK> woa.
[15:34] <bazhang> tis 120 now
[15:34] <bazhang> whoops
[15:34] <jpds> 120 folks!
[15:35] <MenZa> this is awesome.
[15:35] <MenZa> I approve!
[15:35] <MenZa> I wish there was an irssi script that would allow me to reserve blocks of channels (e.g. [1-10]) for certain networks.
[15:36] <MenZa> Guh.
[16:14] <Pici> What is ithingLinux going on about?
[16:15] <tonyyarusso> no idea
[16:16] <bazhang> he is at it again?
[16:16] <Pici> I don't know, theres a heavy language barrier.
[16:20] <bazhang> I removed him once already and he is asking if I am an operator
[16:20] <bazhang> seems more than a language barrier at work here
[16:28] <bazhang> vmware macos is hackintosh, correct?
[16:57] <Myrtti> ikonia: did you notice JayCool failing in hilighting you in -ot
[16:58] <Pici> Is he supposed to be banned or something?
[16:58] <bazhang> CarlFK, and dholbach should be +v per jussi01 , correct?
[16:58] <ikonia> I didn't
[16:58] <ikonia> Myrtti: he's banned from #u - not -ot, I'll check him out in -ot
[16:59] <Myrtti> ikonia: I know :-)
[16:59] <ikonia> ahh cool, thanks for the heads up
[17:00] <ikonia> didn't notice him in #ubuntu until just now though
[17:06] <ikonia> jaycool is now discussing his ban with jono bacon (I doubt it) please be aware if this escalates
[17:08] <Myrtti> X-|
[17:10]  * Pici blinks
[17:11] <Myrtti> escalation ftw...
[17:17] <ikonia> empty blind threats for fail
[17:31] <Myrtti> nnnnnngggghhhhh
[17:32] <ikonia> ??
[17:34] <Myrtti> my fantasies of putting a small detonation device on the premises of the trunk line provider of spain grows
[17:36] <jpds> Myrtti: Actually, no.
[17:37] <jpds> Myrtti: Spain's inet links suck so much you'd only need a very, very small device.
[17:51] <Myrtti> oh god
[17:51] <Pici> AUGH
[17:55] <Pici> I need to eat because I have a meeting in 5 minutes, can't be babysitting #ubuntu now
[17:56] <Pici> Sorry.
[17:56]  * ikonia babysites
[17:56] <ikonia> sits
[17:57] <Pici> FabioTheApe will be removed eventually, he can't stay on-topic.
[17:57] <ikonia> it appears that way
[17:57] <genii> Hm. zealot
[17:57] <ikonia> = toast
[17:59] <genii> Hehe "I don't need 5 spamming me..."  I have a meeting I'm supposed to be in.
[18:23] <Pici> So someone else can take care of it
[18:27] <genii> Claviceps seems to be making the rounds
[18:27] <genii> ( first in #u then #k, wouldn't be surprised if #x is next)
[18:32] <jpds> applecat is being daft.
[18:33] <ikonia> no problem
[18:52] <Pici> ...
[18:54] <genii> Pici: Fabio seems a no-show
[18:54] <Pici> genii: aye
[18:58] <mneptok> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[18:58] <mneptok> 11:57 [Freenode] -!- WHOIS This command could not be completed because it has been used recently, and is rate-limited.
[18:58] <mneptok> what. the. frack?!
[18:58] <Pici> I got that yesterday out of the blue, haven't been able to recreate it though.
[18:59] <Myrtti> if you whois same person twice in short delay, it does that
[18:59] <Myrtti> it's ratelimited, as it says.
[18:59] <mneptok> and that's a terrible idea. /whois is very, very hand in crafting banmasks, etc.
[19:00] <mneptok> *handy
[19:01] <Pici> Myrtti: to make things confusing, chrome calls their devel branch the dev channel.
[19:01] <Myrtti> what does jordy240 actually mean? can't make heads or tails
[19:01] <Myrtti> right
[19:05] <Myrtti> hm. my suspicion is that jaycool is bandodging on #ubuntu
[19:05] <Pici> I do not see him in #ubuntu
[19:05] <Myrtti> JrodDCxx
[19:06]  * Myrtti considers
[19:06] <Pici> jaycool was coming from an adsl connection, this guy is ppp, and different ident
[19:07] <Pici> I don't have the realname logged though
[19:08] <Myrtti> JayCool<EMAIL_ADDRESS>vs. jared<EMAIL_ADDRESS>vs. jared is now known as JayCool vs. JrodDCx<EMAIL_ADDRESS>vs. jared is now known as JrodDCxx
[19:08] <Myrtti> circumstatial, I know, but why did he do /me hugs ikonia?
[19:09] <Myrtti> I don't know
[19:09]  * Pici tempts
[19:16] <Myrtti> it's the nuthouse
[19:51] <Myrtti> uhoh
[19:52] <Myrtti> there's some mirc warriors again on the channel
[19:53] <Pici> looks like staff is taking care of them
[19:53] <Pici> s/is/are/ maybe
[19:53] <Myrtti> Movies and blacks have mirctr as their  ident as well
[19:53] <Myrtti> they've not been klined yet
[19:53] <Myrtti> and mastercard
[19:53] <Tm_T> see their "realname"
[19:54] <Pici> its blue
[19:54] <Myrtti> Sahte
[19:54] <Myrtti> I'm not happy with this
[19:54] <Tm_T> and it's identical
[19:55] <Myrtti> seonghoo
[19:55] <Pici> Feel free to +b $r:mirctr*
[19:55]  * Tm_T loves that he sees "realname" at join
[20:01] <Myrtti> Dizgi`ScripT`v3
[20:05]  * Pici turns on auto_realname again, forgets why he turned it off
[20:05] <Myrtti> it made me lag a bit, or something did
[20:05] <Myrtti> and I don't know how auto_realname works now with the restrictions on /whois
[20:06] <Tm_T> Myrtti: haven't got issues with it yet
[20:06] <Pici> Oh rght.  I vaugely remember that I told you something about it... but I don't remember what.
[20:06] <Myrtti> these bots joining in and quitting on themselves really make me nervous
[20:07] <Pici> Myrtti: ban them then
[20:20] <Myrtti> I'm not that intrested
[20:21] <Pici> Meh, this autorealname thing is annoying.  It looks like if the request gets throttled it tries again and then displays $nick is $name on a separate line
[20:22] <Myrtti> yeah, that might have been the reason I stopped using it
[20:24] <Tm_T> hmm, I wonder what I use
[20:24] <Tm_T> ah, joininfo.pl
[20:24]  * Pici loads
[20:25] <Tm_T> never had single problem with this
[20:25] <Tm_T> I just set it to show only realname, not the other info
[20:25] <Pici> its doing it again
[20:26] <Tm_T> I don't even have difficulties when there's mass joins ):
[20:29] <Pici> Tm_T: How many channels are you in?
[20:30] <jussi01> wow, Im in 62...
[20:31] <Myrtti> I'm on 16 on this network, and one bitlbee.
[20:31] <genii> Gah, 62
[20:31] <Pici> Only 54 windows open right now.
[20:32] <Tm_T> Pici: in freenode? close to 50
[20:32] <genii> I'm in 24 channels with another 8 on standby that I pop in and out...
[20:41] <mneptok>  /w 75823
[20:42] <Tm_T> /w mneptok
[20:42]  * Tm_T hides
[20:54]  * Myrtti bashes head on keyboard
[20:55] <Myrtti> I give up, I raise my hands and I give up
[20:57] <Myrtti> I honestly can't remember why I'm doing this
[21:00] <MenZa> I win. 230.
[21:00] <MenZa> :p
[21:01] <Myrtti> what you people need is life
[21:01] <Myrtti> not any new irssi scripts
[21:01] <Pici> I only pay attention to about 20 of mine.
[21:01] <MenZa> Myrtti: I resent that. :(
[21:05] <Myrtti> user told me he didn't say rm -rf on the channel. it was one of his multiple personalities
[21:06] <Myrtti> and it's his troll personality that did it.
[21:06] <Myrtti> OH YE GODS, GIVE ME STRENGTH
[21:06] <Seeker`> Ban the troll personality then
[21:06] <Pici> #ubuntu isn't a psychological support channel
[21:07] <Myrtti> oh. looky that
[21:07] <Myrtti> troll ident.
[21:07] <Myrtti> and he's threatening to do banevasion
[21:07] <Myrtti> I give up
[21:08] <Myrtti> oh yay, atleast I wasn't told I'm a ******* ***** in pm
[21:09] <Myrtti> !guidelines > a35441
[21:09] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[21:09] <Myrtti> I can't even make the bot send him the guidelines
[21:12] <genii> Myrtti: Fastest gun there to "change your nick"  (masturbate)
[21:12]  * Myrtti facepalms repeatedly
[21:12] <Myrtti> I give up
[21:14] <genii> How the hell is he still there?
[21:20] <Myrtti> one of those mirctr types again
[21:20] <MenZa> Is #u going nuts?
[21:20] <Myrtti> I'm off to bed
[21:20] <Myrtti> MenZa: yes
[21:20]  * MenZa hugs Myrtti, genii; supplies with tea and coffee respectively.
[21:22]  * genii hugs MenZa, waves to Myrtti, sips his coffee, and tries not to hear his boss yelling down the hall for him
[21:22] <MenZa> >_<
[21:26] <SpaceGhostC2C> Hello, can I get any help in a problem in the mailing lists?
[21:27] <MenZa> SpaceGhostC2C: This isn't exactly the place; what sort of problem are you talking about?
[21:27] <SpaceGhostC2C> Myrtti, Do you know if there are any moderators that I could contact about the ubuntu community mailing list?
[21:27] <MenZa> SpaceGhostC2C: Myrtti isn't around right now.
[21:28] <SpaceGhostC2C> MenZa, I'm sorry. I've looked everywhere about it. I can't find any report or mailing system or anything.
[21:28] <MenZa> SpaceGhostC2C: Well, jussi01 is the admin of the IRC list.
[21:28] <MenZa> (ubuntu-irc@lists)
[21:29] <SpaceGhostC2C> Can he help with the community mailing list?
[21:29] <MenZa> What problem are you having with what list?
[21:29] <MenZa> There are several, er, community mailing lists.
[21:29] <SpaceGhostC2C> Regarding user offense and lack of mods?
[21:29] <MenZa> ubuntu-users?
[21:29] <SpaceGhostC2C> https://lists.ubuntu.com/#Community+Support
[21:29] <MenZa> That's seven different lists.
[21:30] <SpaceGhostC2C> sorry one sec.
[21:30] <MenZa> ubuntu-users, edubuntu-users, etc.
[21:30] <SpaceGhostC2C><EMAIL_ADDRESS>[21:30] <MenZa> SpaceGhostC2C: I suggest you send an e-mail to the following people about that: mako at ubuntu.com, brian.murray at ubuntu.com, alan at popey.com, lyz at ubuntu.com, mike.basinger at gmail.com
[21:31] <MenZa> SpaceGhostC2C: If you look at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users, at the bottom
[21:31] <MenZa> You can see who's running each individual list
[21:31] <SpaceGhostC2C> MenZa, thanks. Sorry for not seeing that.
[21:31] <MenZa> You can catch popey, pleia2 on IRC
[21:31] <MenZa> (the others are undoubtedly on too, but I don't know their nicks)
[21:31] <MenZa> popey, pleia2: are either of you around to assist SpaceGhostC2C?
[21:31] <popey> yes
[21:31] <pleia2> the owners address for that list works too :)
[21:31] <MenZa> excellent - SpaceGhostC2C, popey will be your guide from here!
[21:32] <MenZa> pleia2: or that, yeah :)
[21:32] <popey> indeed, send to mailinglistname-owner
[21:32] <MenZa><EMAIL_ADDRESS>is what you want then, SpaceGhostC2C
[21:32] <popey> thanks MenZa
[21:33] <popey> we welcome mails to be honest as making that list better is a real work-in-progress
[21:34] <MenZa> :)
[21:36] <SpaceGhostC2C> Hey. I did popey.
[21:37] <SpaceGhostC2C> Thanks, I hope it gets answered soon. I just want the list not to have users that are consistently arguing. There's a lot to the problem, and it needs fixing. Even if it means I get expelled from the list.
[21:37] <popey> agreed
[21:37] <righteous> hi.  one of your ops is severely abusing his permissions in #ubuntu, can I get intervention, here?
[21:37] <popey> thanks for letting us know
[21:38] <righteous> op nick is mneptok
[21:38] <SpaceGhostC2C> popey, no thank you sir. This has just been very stressful. One user has a vendetta against myself and posts things like "Don't listen to this child, he knows nothing."
[21:38] <mneptok> righteous: i warned you several times about your attitude. eventually i kicked you as a warning. you persisted. now you're banned.
[21:39] <righteous> uhm.  i dont have an attitude, i think there is some kind of language barrier, here.
[21:39] <mneptok> 14:28 < righteous> mneptok: ehm, I'm speaking english, right?  I'm using ubuntu right now, but im primarily a slackware user.
[21:39] <popey> SpaceGhostC2C: lets take this to #ubuntu-mailinglists
[21:39] <mneptok> 14:28 < righteous> mneptok: please read a little closer if you intend on enforcing rules.
[21:39] <popey> and leave these irc people to do their stuff.
[21:40] <righteous> can I get some intervention here, please?
[21:40] <mneptok> i then asked you to watch your attitude.
[21:40] <mneptok> 14:29 < righteous> mneptok: sorry, I just would expect an op to pay better attention.
[21:40] <MenZa> righteous, mneptok: Let me check up on the logs, I'll be a third-party here, if neither of you mind?
[21:40] <righteous> i dont mind, and thank you.
[21:40] <MenZa> Alright, hold on :)
[21:41] <mneptok> righteous: "sorry" usually means you realize you're doing something wrong, and plan on not repeating the behavior.
[21:42] <righteous> also, MenZa my solution would be to lift the ban and just have me put him on ignore so that his feelings dont get hurt anymore.  I think there's uhm...an 'issue' that was there before I got here ;)
[21:42] <righteous> If that makes sense.
[21:42] <MenZa> Let's not jump to conclusions before I read these logs properly.
[21:42] <mneptok> putting ops on /ignore is a bad idea.
[21:43] <MenZa> Right, could you explain the situation from the beginning as you see it, righteous?
[21:43] <righteous> mneptok: when users have to walk on eggshells around the ego/feelings of an op, putting that op on ignore is the best idea.
[21:43] <MenZa> Gentlemen, hold your horses. :)
[21:45] <MenZa> righteous?
[21:46] <righteous> MenZa: yup.  i was troubleshooting an issue (i just installed ubuntu to test it, im a slackware user), I explained that I'm not terribly ubuntu-familiar and that im a slackware user, he took it as me being in an ubuntu channel asking slackware questions (what?) and then made a statement that would encourage users not to help me because i was using slackware.  even though I wasn't.  I asked him politely to read closer
[21:47] <righteous> i mean he literally intejected the discussion i was having with another user to tell me to go to another channel.  how could he troubleshoot a complex issue if he's not able to tell what distro a user is on?
[21:47] <righteous> anyway, regardless, i'd like to just have him on ignore and he does his thing, but i need to be in that channel.
[21:48] <MenZa> Hold on, hold on -- just reading up. Almost done. :)
[21:49] <MenZa> Right, having read up on the logs, I see it as a small misunderstanding on mneptok's side, and a bit of mouthiness on your side.
[21:49] <righteous> well yeah, but i can be mouthy.
[21:49] <righteous> you guys have ops so you can keep big disruptions out of your channel.  thats why they're there.
[21:50] <MenZa> I'd recommend keeping a clear, sober tone in #ubuntu and related channels -- misunderstandings like this are more likely to appear
[21:50] <righteous> this was not a big disruption.
[21:50] <mneptok> and i asked you not to be. and you persisted. accept the consequences.
[21:50] <righteous> he's not my employer, my mother, he's an op on an irc channel.
[21:50] <MenZa> again, calm down guys -- this isn't resolving anything
[21:50] <mneptok> and that channel has rules and guidelienes. and not being mouthy and making personal attacks are among the rules.
[21:50] <maco> MenZa: you could quiet them both til you're done reading ;)
[21:51] <MenZa> righteous: The Ubuntu channels are moderated on the base of a consensus. Basically, we agree to keep the channels tidy -- every one of us -- and if a user asks you to perhaps tone it down a bit, then you do so. Regardless of their op status.
[21:51] <MenZa> Like I said, it seems as if there's been a bit of a misunderstanding from both parties.
[21:51] <righteous> MenZa: i was not lude or vile in any sense of the imagination; as for 'toning it down' thats like my neighbor calling the police because my microwave hummed too loud.
[21:52] <MenZa> righteous: Your attitude wasn't particularly cooperative.
[21:52] <righteous> no it wasn't.
[21:52] <righteous> so can you please lift the ban?
[21:52] <MenZa> I can't, it's mneptok's ban, and I have no force over it.
[21:53] <MenZa> I'm merely trying to be an outside third party here.
[21:53] <righteous> then why did you ...
[21:53] <righteous> what is wrong with this place?
[21:53] <righteous> who has discretion over this?
[21:54] <righteous> I mean I could evade the ban and just not tell him, but i'd really like to not have to do that just to write an editorial.
[21:54] <MenZa> That depends on what you mean by that, exactly.
[21:54] <MenZa> righteous: Ban evasion is against freenode policy, and could get you K-lined.
[21:54] <MenZa> I wouldn't recommend it.
[21:54] <righteous> You wouldn't even know, dude.
[21:54] <righteous> But thats not what I'm saying.
[21:55] <righteous> Is this really how you want your distro to be represented?
[21:55] <MenZa> I think we're representing our distro well.  Slackware makes you a bitter misanthrope.
[22:00] <MenZa> :P
[22:00]  * mneptok goes to shower and order some Icelandic currency
[22:00] <MenZa> I think he wanted me to swear at him or ban him or something, eventually got fed up and went on a swear spree.
[22:00]  * MenZa strokes his PhD in Trolldom.
[22:02] <MenZa> Well, I'm discovering one thing recently. The state of freenode is a pretty damn good reflection of the state of the global economy.
[22:04] <genii> Hm. "zealot" in #u but not sure if same from earlier
[22:05] <MenZa> Was said zealot kicked, banned?
[22:05] <MenZa> Check them against the BT
[22:17] <Seeker`> hi righteous, how can we help you?
[22:18] <righteous> hi Seeker`
[22:18] <righteous> im trying to get ahold of the maintainer of the channel.
[22:18] <Seeker`> of which channel?
[22:18] <righteous> oh, #ubuntu.
[22:18] <Seeker`> the operators here are responsible for the day-to-day running of the channel
[22:18] <righteous> how does that all work, anyway?
[22:18] <righteous> oh ok.  can you lift my ban?
[22:19] <ikonia> righteous: no
[22:19] <Seeker`> It is up to the op that banned you to remove the ban
[22:19] <ikonia> righteous: you kept using offensive language and told it "fuck it I'll ban evade"
[22:19] <Seeker`> I am not fully aware of the situation, and wouldn't want to step on other people's toes
[22:19] <righteous> ah.  well the op that banned me did so for inappropriate reasons and I'd like an administrator to intervene.
[22:20] <ikonia> righteous: you've had people intervene and explain the situation to it
[22:20] <MenZa> !appeals | righteous
[22:20] <ikonia> thats when you started using abusive language and told us you would ban evade
[22:20] <ikonia> righteous: that attitude will not get you your ban lifted
[22:20] <righteous> ikonia: actually, I did evade the ban.
[22:20] <righteous> this is the internet.
[22:20] <ikonia> righteous: no problem then I'll report that to freenode now and you're ban is to remain in place
[22:21] <righteous> anyway, yes I'll check out that appeal process.
[22:21] <righteous> ikonia: report away, but that ban was inappropriate.
[22:21] <ikonia> righteous: I'll make a note to the appeals process people about your attitude also
[22:21] <ikonia> righteous: it's not your position to decide if the ban is appropriate and evade it
[22:21] <righteous> using your ops to flame someone and then ban them for responding is just not done.
[22:21] <jrib> righteous: ban evasion isn't the proper response, especially after you were told as much
[22:21] <righteous> of course its my position.
[22:21] <righteous> look, I did.
[22:21] <ikonia> righteous: this conversation is done - I'll take this up with freenode
[22:21] <righteous> so it was my position
[22:21] <righteous> just as its your position to ban me.
[22:22] <righteous> your position to ban me, my position to evade it.
[22:22] <MenZa> We've already gone over this. If you wish to appeal your ban, righteous, do so by the channels listed on the above link.
[22:22] <ikonia> righteous: please leave the channel, while you are evading bans we will not progress this
[22:22] <SpaceGhostC2C> Sorry for butting in, but this isn't chess righteous
[22:22] <righteous> MenZa: thank you, I'll use that process.
[22:22] <SpaceGhostC2C> I'll leave now, I just noticed I'm still here.
[22:22] <ikonia> SpaceGhostC2C: please leave the channel if you have no other need for operator assistnace
[22:22] <righteous> ikonia: but can you prove i evaded the ban?
[22:22] <Seeker`> SpaceGhostC2C: thanks
[22:22] <SpaceGhostC2C> ikonia, I am sir. I didn't know I was still here.
[22:22] <ikonia> righteous: you just admited it
[22:22] <righteous> or are you whining about something you made up?
[22:23] <righteous> but does that mean I did it?
[22:23] <ikonia> righteous: you just told us you did, so that's enough
[22:23] <righteous> of course not.
[22:23] <ikonia> SpaceGhostC2C: no problem
[22:23] <righteous> how old are you?
[22:23] <ikonia> righteous: then you are silly for telling lies
[22:23] <righteous> sure, sure.
[22:23] <ikonia> righteous: this conversaiton is over - please leave
[22:23] <righteous> but i evaded it.
[22:23] <righteous> lol
[22:23] <ikonia> !staff | righteous ban evading - admiting it and trolling
[22:24] <righteous> lift my inappropriate ban that i tried to discuss with you.
[22:24] <ikonia> righteous: this conversation is over
[22:24] <ikonia> please leave the channel
[22:24] <MenZa> righteous: The appeals process is outlined in the link ubottu send you. If that's all we can do for you, please adhere to the rules of this channel (listed in the /topic).
[22:24] <righteous> no its not.  ill have this discussion as many users from as many parts of the world I have patience for.
[22:24] <ikonia> !ops | righteous
[22:25] <niko> righteous: do you take a look at freenode policies ?
[22:25] <righteous> Someone who's got the discretion, lift my ban and stop treating your users like kids.
[22:25] <righteous> niko: im aware.
[22:25] <righteous> !ops
[22:25] <niko> righteous: if you are banned from a channel, don't evade it, it's against freenode policies
[22:26] <niko> after that, if you can't discuss with operators of the channel, try with founder, or ask again in few days
[22:26] <righteous> niko: the reason for the ban is inappropriate, and I tried to discuss it with the op who made the ban, and tried to get intervention.
[22:27] <MenZa> righteous: You've exhausted steps 1--3 in your appeals process, please see step 4 here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess
[22:27] <righteous> here's my stance on that.  your bans are petty.  they are ineffective.  i will have no problems entering the channel.  what i would like is for the ban to be lifted so that I don't have to evade it and we can all start fresh.
[22:28] <ikonia> righteous: please leave the channel
[22:28] <righteous> its really a difference of a few keystrokes when i enter the channel.  you'll never know.  but i'd like to not have to.
[22:28] <ikonia> righteous: follow the appeals process we can take this no further now, and I refuse to after you ban evading
[22:28] <righteous> no, im not doing your appeals process.  i want you to do it.
[22:28] <ikonia> righteous: then freenode can deal with you
[22:28] <ikonia> can someone please remove righteous
[22:28] <righteous> ikonia: how would they know?
[22:28] <righteous> tell me that.
[22:28] <MenZa> righteous: Well, niko *is* a freenode staffer.
[22:28] <righteous> you reallyhaven't thought this through.
[22:28] <ikonia> righteous: it's not lifted with your current attitude - please leave
[22:28] <Seeker`> niko: please can you remove righteous from the channel
[22:29] <righteous> thats great, she's a staffer.  but can you verify that im currently evading the ban?
[22:29] <righteous> if you ban me, ill still be in #ubuntu.
[22:29] <righteous> and you'll never know.
[22:29] <ikonia> not interested
[22:29] <ikonia> leave
[22:29] <ikonia> come back when you can discuss it with out language/attitude/ban/evasion
[22:30] <tomaw> hrm.
[22:30] <niko> righteous: rolf
[22:30]  * niko give mneptok a http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml link
[22:30] <ikonia> ha
[22:30] <mneptok> niko: if only i had the time ...
[22:30] <niko> i wonders why core ops aren't op here
[22:31] <MenZa> niko: well, freenode frowns on auto ops ;)
[22:31] <ikonia> thank you - I don't speak for the other ops, but I'll make it clear, I won't discuss ban removal while someone is bragging about about evading
[22:31] <niko> MenZa: not auto op, simply have op access
[22:31] <MenZa> niko: ah
[22:31] <ikonia> niko: legacy
[22:31] <ikonia> mneptok: thank you for stepping in
[22:31] <MenZa> ikonia: I tried to have patience with him the first time round.
[22:31] <Seeker`> That took about<PHONE_NUMBER>x as much effort as it should have gone:
[22:31] <ikonia> Seeker`: concur
[22:31] <Seeker`> r: Seeker` please remove my ban
[22:31] <MenZa> ikonia: The second time round, I would've liked him removed immediately after having received Appeals guidelines.
[22:32] <Seeker`> me: No, other ops ban
[22:32] <Seeker`> please see !appeals
[22:32] <Seeker`> r: blah blah blah blah blah
[22:32] <MenZa> Seeker`: Did you see his previous trollfest?
[22:32] <Seeker`> at which point he should have either left or been removed
[22:32] <MenZa> Seeker`: Agreed on that.
[22:32] <ikonia> jimcooncat on the same ip in #ubuntu
[22:32] <ikonia> it's him
[22:32] <Seeker`> there is seriously 0 point in getting in to a discussion like we just did, with everyone jumping in
[22:33] <ikonia> sorry - different ip
[22:33] <ikonia> not him
[22:33] <MenZa> Seeker`: absolutely agreed. I would've preferred a faster remove also.
[22:33]  * MenZa nurses his head.
[22:33] <Seeker`> if someone has a problem with a ban like that, they need to go through appeals. At which point, no amount of arguing in here will change anything.
[22:33] <ikonia> to be honest - they don't
[22:34] <mneptok> check by realname
[22:34] <ikonia> throwing !appeals at everyone who is not happy with resolution straight away is just going to make it impossible
[22:34] <mneptok> "Chris Punches"
[22:34] <mneptok> and he's again telling me he's currently evading in PM
[22:34] <Seeker`> ikonia: there was a clear consensus with the ops in here that he should have been removed from the channel
[22:35] <Seeker`> ikonia: noone will remove his ban. The only way for a semi-peaceful resolution at that point is the appeals process
[22:35] <ikonia> I disagree
[22:35] <Seeker`> I wasn't going to remove the ban, you weren't going to remove the ban, he would just continue arguing until we gave in. Which we weren't going to do.
[22:35] <ikonia> throwing the appeals process to someone bragging about evading the ban is a waste of effort
[22:36] <MenZa> Alas, something we have to do.
[22:36] <MenZa> And, really -- it doesn't take much effort. The whole discussion we went into did.
[22:36] <Seeker`> err
[22:36] <Seeker`> he was unhappy with an operator decision
[22:36] <Seeker`> he cam here, he still wasn't happy
[22:36] <MenZa> Seeker`: And he'd complained about it, and he swore, spat, and said he'd ban evade.
[22:36] <Seeker`> at which point, he needs to look at the appeals process page
[22:36] <ikonia> that wasn't uphappy
[22:37] <ikonia> that was being an issue
[22:37] <ikonia> if you're unhappy you appeal
[22:37] <ikonia> if you're breaking the network policy - you don't get anything until you calm down
[22:37] <MenZa> He won't appeal, in any case. He's a troll, escalating a tiny little issue to this.
[22:37] <mneptok> 15:36 [Freenode] [righteous(~righteous@pool-72-65-104-97.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net)] < ekim> IdleOne,  I am just happy I dont have these problems...of course, I dont do
[22:37] <mneptok> 15:36 [Freenode] [righteous(~righteous@pool-72-65-104-97.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net)]               much with this Ubuntu yet!
[22:37] <ikonia> I know he won't appeal, but I didn't think the process was to throw appeal to everyone who came in ranting
[22:37] <mneptok> 15:36 [Freenode] [righteous(~righteous@pool-72-65-104-97.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net)] ^ im in the channel.
[22:37] <Seeker`> so a user has to be specifically unhappy for the appeals process to apply? It doesn't apply to angry / sad / ... users
[22:37] <mneptok> 15:36 [Freenode] [righteous(~righteous@pool-72-65-104-97.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net)] I'll play nice if you do.   I stepped in to mediate, he went berzerk, escalated everything.
[22:39] <MenZa> Ended up quitting, swearing, and said he'd ban evade.
[22:39] <jpds> Cool.
[22:39] <Seeker`> MenZa: i know.
[22:39] <MenZa> jpds: Very.
[22:39] <Seeker`> MenZa: what did everyone else expect to happen by chatting?
[22:39] <ikonia> nothing - discussion should have ended
[22:40] <MenZa> Discussion should have ended and he should have been removed
[22:40] <Seeker`> but it didn't, you, along with other people, continued it
[22:40] <mneptok> 15:38 [Freenode] [righteous(~righteous@pool-72-65-104-97.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net)] Ok, well, consider this as an ultimatum of sorts.    Not mean, or malicious, just insane.  And I have far, far too much time on  my hands.  I will be a plague if you don't play nice with me.
[22:40] <ikonia> Seeker`: no, I kept stating it would not be continued in an attempt to stop people progressing it futher
[22:40]  * MenZa sniffles as brain slowly seeps out his nose
[22:40] <mneptok> 15:39 [Freenode] [righteous(~righteous@pool-72-65-104-97.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net)] It's your choice.  I'll let you say some smart assed things in response to that and then give you a minute to think.
[22:40] <mneptok> 15:40 [Freenode] [righteous(~righteous@pool-72-65-104-97.ptldme.east.myfairpoint.net)] You care about the channel, right?  Keeping it from being disrupted?  So let's help each other out.  We'll call it 'insurance'.
[22:40] <ikonia> the conversation would have ended could I have removed him
[22:40] <ikonia> mneptok: dump it - let him follow the process
[22:40] <mneptok> in the future, let's all make a note of my character assessment skills :)
[22:41] <MenZa> mneptok: showoff.
[22:41]  * MenZa stabbitystabs.
[22:41] <ikonia> too much time is wasted with this as Seeker` rightly pointed out
[22:41] <MenZa> Also, learn to catalyse. See particularly the point on "open-minded".
[22:41]  * MenZa hides.
[22:41] <MenZa> <3 mneptok. Just... don't show me that picture, ever again :(
[22:41] <MenZa> I beg you. :(
[22:41] <mneptok> !staff | see above timestamped paste
[22:42] <niko> 10
[22:43] <mneptok> ?
[22:43] <MenZa> Anyway, I think we all agree that what SHOULD have happened was removal instantly after informing him about his possibilities for appeal, and we should all have shut our trap.
[22:43] <MenZa> Derp. End of story.
[22:43] <MenZa> And now, I go to bed.
[22:43]  * MenZa grumbles, growls, grrrs.
[22:43] <mneptok> niko: what, exactly, will warrant his g: line?
[22:43] <MenZa> Oh, I envy packagers for their easy job sometimes.
[22:45] <niko> mneptok: there is too many case to give you a good answer
[22:45] <ikonia> mneptok: just leave it to staff, he's out of our channels, not a problem any more
[22:46] <MenZa> I say don't waste another second of your life on him.

[22:46]  * MenZa brews coffee for all.
[22:47] <highvoltage> sheesh thanks, I need it :D
[22:48] <MenZa> highvoltage: Welcome. You're new here, aren't you?
[22:50]  * MenZa prods highvoltage with a pointy stick.
[22:52] <highvoltage> MenZa: I guess that would depend on your definition of new :)
[22:52] <MenZa> Well, here. Operhood and all that.
[22:53] <MenZa> Or are you simply new in this channel?
[22:54]  * ikonia watches #k
[22:54] <highvoltage> MenZa: been ops on #edubuntu since 2005, been in and out of this channel for quite some time
[22:54] <MenZa> Interesting. Well, nice to see you here, properly.
[22:54] <highvoltage> MenZa: I think lurking here wasn't allowed at one point so it wasn't on my auto-join list
[22:54]  * MenZa shakehands, serves aforementioned coffee.
[22:54] <highvoltage> MenZa: thanks for the welcome though :)
[22:58] <Gary> mneptok: thanks for that timestamped paste
[22:58] <highvoltage> MenZa: I've only kept one eye on the list and the recent politic around ubuntu-ops, but it seems like there's a lot of renewed energy at least so hopefully things will shape up nicely
[22:59] <MenZa> Things will shape up nicely.
[23:02] <highvoltage> *nod* I believe so too
[23:19] <ikonia> Gary: I'm getting a poor ctcp attck in pm from righteious now


[00:49] <h00k> tonyyarusso: licensing: nope.
[01:10] <tonyyarusso> I'm always kind of torn, because I like the aims of the GPL, but it's so. damn. long.
[01:11] <tonyyarusso> This is especially true when I'm just writing some single-file script, which is shorter than the license, so that's silly.
[01:30]  * tonyyarusso invites h00k to #ubuntu-trivia
[17:07] <dw87> anyone alive in here?
[17:42] <ColinHarrington> nope
[20:57] <h00k> oh hello
[20:57] <h00k> greetings from Wisconsin
[22:22] <sir_tyrion> GTFO MN only!
[22:22] <sir_tyrion> jk


[01:39] <psyke83> hi kwwii, still awake?
[01:41] <psyke83> kwwii, I guess you're not, but if you read this later, I've made a few more modifications to the theme (darker menu background and fixed an Evolution bug), here's v0.14: http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=63182&d=1205977145
[04:56] <DanaG> Hmm, I still like the Aurora appearance, with orange coloration.
[06:42] <mgunes> kwwii, ping
[06:53] <mgunes> does ubuntu-artwork still install Human Murrine by default or was it switched to Clearlooks?
[09:27] <kwwii> mgunes: it should now only install ubuntulooks again :-)
[11:32] <mgunes> kwwii, why exactly?
[15:59] <psyke83> kwwii, hey, I updated Human-Murrine-Mod to make the menu background darker, and fixed an Evolution bug. It's here: http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=63182&d=1205977145
[16:00] <psyke83> kwwii, selected items in Evolution was inconsistent, see this screenshot: http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=63149&d=1205960750
[16:01] <psyke83> it's fixed with the update, and I didn't find any regressions
[16:11] <_MMA_> psyke83: Since you seem to like to hack on gtkrc. You wanna play with the Ubuntu Studio one? I'm sure there's an issue or 2.
[16:12] <psyke83> _MMA_, I'll take a look, but are there specific issues you're aware of?
[16:12] <kwwii> psyke83: killer, thanks
[16:14] <_MMA_> psyke83: Mostly some text issues with some apps. Might just come down to them not using GTK correctly.
[16:15] <psyke83> _MMA_, do you want it to be compatible with the Color Picker?
[16:15] <_MMA_> http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/Misc/UbuntuStudio-Hardy.tar.gz
[16:16] <_MMA_> Sure. If you know how to add it.
[16:18] <_MMA_> psyke83: After Hardy I had planned on also updating the theme to the newer Murrine layout. It's gonna take some work. It has to keep the same look.
[16:18] <psyke83> what do you mean by "new" Murrine layout?
[16:21] <_MMA_> Well Im still hard defining all the colors.
[16:22] <_MMA_> there's all that @ stuff at the top now and such.
[16:22] <_MMA_> Where it defined a shade of one color and such.
[16:22] <_MMA_> *defines
[16:25] <psyke83> _MMA_, I'm going to re-base your theme from Human-Murrine(-Mod), and modify the colours and tweak other settings (e.g. menu stripe), and we'll see how it works
[16:25] <psyke83> that will make it Color Picker compatible
[16:26] <psyke83> I noticed the Fast User Switching applet doesn't look right with your theme
[16:38] <_MMA_> psyke83: You have to be careful with that. I have settings that aren't in Human-Murrine that are very necessary.
[16:39] <psyke83> _MMA_, I'm checking it thoroughly, don't worry
[16:39] <_MMA_> k
[16:40] <psyke83> it's already 85% identical, I just need to apply your specific tweaks
[16:41] <_MMA_> I originally made Human-Murrine for Ken. :P
[16:45] <psyke83> :)
[16:45] <psyke83> my modification was based off Human-Clearlooks, though
[16:56] <kwwii> _MMA_ rocks!
[16:59] <_MMA_> kwwii: Your socks right off. ;)
[17:02] <kwwii> I could hear a lead riff playing in my mind when I said that (so it was like _MMA_ rocks! Deedeleedeedeleedee)
[17:02] <kwwii> :p
[17:02] <_MMA_> \m/
[17:03] <_MMA_> kwwii: Got my passport today. Should be all set for Prague.
[17:11] <kwwii> _MMA_: excellent :-)
[17:23] <psyke83> _MMA_, nearly done, but I'm reluctant to emulate something in your theme
[17:25] <psyke83> _MMA_, look at the ghosted buttons: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/UbuntuStudio2.png
[17:26] <psyke83> do you not think this is better than having a dark backgroun with white text (your theme)?
[17:26] <psyke83> my way seems more subtle and less prominent
[17:27] <_MMA_> This is why I mentioned to be careful. I believe there is a fix in my theme for that. Here's a TWF screenshot. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardy?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=theme.png
[17:28] <psyke83> _MMA_, so you prefer it your way?
[17:29] <psyke83> I'm referring to button2, togglebutton2, checkbutton3,4 and radiobutton3,4
[17:30] <_MMA_> Well, if you're finished what you're doing, send it to me and I'll look over it. See what the guys think.
[17:30] <_MMA_> Use it for a couple of days.
[17:30] <psyke83> _MMA_, gimme a few more minutes, I didn't fix the radiobuttons or import the panel settings
[17:30] <_MMA_> k
[17:30] <psyke83> did you notice anything else wrong from my twf screenshot?
[17:32] <_MMA_> Buttons are more round in your shot.
[17:33] <psyke83> I still have some minor changes to make, including the menu text colour
[17:33] <psyke83> I'll reduce the roundness
[17:34] <_MMA_> sure
[17:43] <_MMA_> psyke83: Your highlight ratio also looks to be slightly higher.
[18:25] <psyke83> _MMA_, it's ready, just packing it for you now
[18:27] <_MMA_> k
[18:29] <psyke83> _MMA_, http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/UbuntuStudio-Mod_v0.1.tar.gz
[18:29] <_MMA_> got it.
[18:29] <psyke83> I only modified gtkrc and index.theme, and the panels refer to the /usr/share.. blah location, so it needs to be installed globally as usual
[18:30] <psyke83> ah, the tooltips are yellow, but you can fix that yourself (defined at the top of the gtkrc)
[18:31] <psyke83> and you need to find a nicer colour for the special nautilus widgets (open the trash folder to see)
[18:32] <psyke83> _MMA_, when you modify the theme, don't insert absolute color values, instead try to use the "mix" or "shade" functions based off the reference colours
[18:33] <_MMA_> If it gets me the color I want, sure.
[18:37] <psyke83> kwwii, are you bothered with Human-Clearlooks any more, by the way?
[19:15] <kwwii> psyke83: not too much, no
[19:15] <psyke83> ok
[19:27] <psyke83> kwwii, I'm creating Human-Mod now, it's easier than I imagined to make it almost exactly the same
[19:27] <psyke83> I'll show you some results later to give you an idea
[20:28] <kwwii> psyke83: cool
[20:34] <psyke83> kwwii, a tiny bugfix to make GtkCombo menu items use black text: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Human-Murrine-Mod_v0.15.tar.gz
[20:34] <psyke83> kwwii, and Human-Mod (seems identical, except is not Color Picker compatible): http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Human-Mod_v0.1.tar.gz
[20:35] <psyke83> *not=now
[21:12] <kwwii> psyke83: killer, I'll look into that
[21:23] <psyke83> _MMA_, were there any problems with the UbuntuStudio mod?
[21:31] <_MMA_> psyke83: Sorry man. I have alot going on here today and plan on going through it tomorrow.
[21:32] <psyke83> not a prob
[23:00] <kwwii> psyke83: your human mod is really close
[23:00] <kwwii> the one thing that I miss is a bit of saturation on the active overlay part
[23:00] <kwwii> lol


[14:55] <adiroiban> hi, do you know where I could find the Launchpad OpenID plugin for moinmoin ? the same one used on help.ubuntu.com/community ?
[14:55] <adiroiban> thanks!
[14:59] <jjesse> adiroiban have you asked on #launchpad?


[03:26] <AfC> Wow. Running `bzr viz` results in Bazaar crashing with a DBus error. That's great.
[03:29] <lifeless> meep
[03:36] <AfC> I didn't know bzr-gtk needed DBus to operate. {shrug}
[03:37] <AfC> DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Spawn.ChildExited: Launch helper exited with unknown return code 0
[03:37] <AfC> Ah
[03:38] <AfC> from bzrlib.plugins.gtk import seahorse
[03:38] <AfC> thence
[03:38] <AfC> crypto = dbus.Interface(bus.get_object(BUS_NAME, CRYPTO_PATH), ...
[03:38] <AfC> "neat"
[03:38]  * AfC wonders what to do about it.
[03:38] <AfC> If I had to guess, I'd speculate it's ongoing wreckage from the Python 2.5 to 2.6 upgrade.
[03:38] <AfC> but we'll see
[03:46] <AfC> Bug filed
[03:50] <luke-jr> AfC: dbus is considered a standard component of any desktop system
[03:50] <luke-jr> I don't think you'll get much progress trying to break that dependency unless you do it yourself
[03:54] <AfC> luke-jr: I wasn't implying I don't have DBus present
[03:54] <AfC> (I'm a GNOME hacker)
[03:55] <AfC> luke-jr: I was merely expressing a bit of surprise that bzr-gtk was doing something that goes down that particular rabbit hole.
[03:56] <luke-jr> shrug
[03:56] <luke-jr> as far as I'm concerned, GTK sucks and has no place on my systems, so I can't say I'm surprised
[03:56] <luke-jr> KDE 4 sucks too, so here's hoping GNOME 3 is Qt4
[03:57]  * luke-jr ponders trying to make C bindings for Qt to encourage such a road.
[04:04] <jelmer> AfC: bzr-gtk doesn't need DBus, it will use it if it's available though (to communicate with seahorse)
[04:04] <AfC> jelmer: sure
[04:04] <AfC> jelmer: that's what I'm inferring
[04:05] <AfC> jelmer: the stack trace is at https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/377476 if you're interested
[04:05] <AfC> what puzzles me a bit is that after (fake) merging that branch to another the crash doesn't happen
[04:06] <AfC> so I'm really at a loss to say what's up. I also largely expect that it's something inconsistent and transient on my system, but again, no idea what
[04:07] <jelmer> AfC: fwiw I can't reproduce it with either but I'm on Debian (still python2.5)
[04:10] <AfC> jelmer: ok
[04:10] <AfC> jelmer: that's useful to know. I'll assume it's something local for now
[04:10] <AfC> jelmer: thanks
[04:11]  * AfC goes to find a coffee
[04:12]  * jelmer goes to find more beer
[07:07] <mwhudson> Peng_: you have quite a few loggerhead branches on the go
[07:08] <mwhudson> Peng_: how many of them are aimed at being merged into trunk in the end?
[07:09] <Peng_> mwhudson: Yeah, I know. The "cheezum" ones are the branch I run on my website, which isn't intended to be merged.
[07:09] <Peng_> mwhudson: The others, ehh.
[07:09] <Peng_> mwhudson: Want me to make a list? :D
[07:10] <mwhudson> well, just curious really
[07:24] <Peng_> mwhudson: FWIW, here's a list explaining them: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/7dCXpn7r0mCOoKejNiRM/
[07:24] <Peng_> And I'll land that branch in a second.
[07:25] <mwhudson> Peng_: thanks
[07:25] <mwhudson> Peng_: i'd say, just fix the pep8 stuff as you go
[07:30] <Peng_> I feel bad about spamming "bzr log -n 1" with it.
[08:25] <GPHemsley> Bazaar is good with branches and tags, right, (allegedly) unlike Mercurial?
[08:26] <Peng_> Um.
[08:26] <Peng_> I wouldn't say one is better than the other, just different.
[08:27] <Peng_> Mercurial versions the tags (just dumping them in a ".hgtags" file in the working tree), while Bazaar doesn't. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
[08:27] <GPHemsley> Peng_: Well, I've heard a lot that Mercurial is bad at branches and tags, and that they shouldn't be used.
[08:27] <GPHemsley> Perhaps moreso with branches than tags.
[08:28] <Peng_> Regarding branches, with both bzr and hg, people usually make a new clone for a new branch, instead of supporting git's multiple-branches-per-directory thingy. Hg has some support for that, but it's not perfect; bzr doesn't at all.
[08:29] <GPHemsley> what about with regard to CVS/SVN?
[08:29] <Peng_> Who cares about cvs and svn? :D
[08:30] <GPHemsley> well, I want to replicate CVS's method... minus the politics ;)
[08:30] <GPHemsley> method of branching and tagging, that is
[08:30] <GPHemsley> I should probably elaborate
[08:30] <Peng_> Ah. I have just about zero experience with CVS.
[08:30] <GPHemsley> oh
[08:30] <GPHemsley> well
[08:31] <GPHemsley> I can explain what I want, and you can tell me if Bazaar does that
[08:31] <Peng_> OK, probably.
[08:32] <GPHemsley> FIrst off, I'll be using the centralized repository method
[08:33] <GPHemsley> I want to be able to branch at a point of release (0.1.0) to continue the latest development on the main branch, while still being able to make maintenance releases on the side branch (0.1.1, etc.)
[08:35] <GPHemsley> I'd also like to be able to tag each release as it happens
[08:35] <GPHemsley> on whatever branch it happens on
[08:38] <GPHemsley> Peng_: It seems fairly straightforward, and it's easy on CVS, because there's no distributed part to worry about. Can it work with Bazaar?
[08:53] <Peng_> GPHemsley: Sure, or hg. That's pretty basic stff.
[08:54] <GPHemsley> Peng_: Well, I'm not considering Hg for this. I'm just trying to make sure switching to Bazaar is a safe thing to do for what I want.
[08:54] <GPHemsley> I'd much prefer to use Bazaar. I just want to make sure it does what I want.
[08:54] <Peng_> Okay. It does.
[08:54] <GPHemsley> Oh, and, if it matters, I'll be stuck with 1.10.
[08:55] <Peng_> One thing to note is that cherrypciking between branches isn't very easy to do.
[08:55] <GPHemsley> Meaning what?
[08:55] <Peng_> Well, I mean, you *can* do it, but it won't reflect the history.
[08:55] <Peng_> GPHemsley: Branch A has revisions 1, 2, and 3. Then you branch off branch B, and commit revisions 4 and 5. Then you want to merge revision 5 back into branch A.
[08:56] <GPHemsley> so branch A would lose 4 and 5 history?
[08:57] <Peng_> GPHemsley: Err, revisions 4 and 5 were supposed to be on branch B, but I guess it works either way.
[08:57] <GPHemsley> right, that's what you said. I'm just trying to figure out what gets lost.
[08:57] <Peng_> GPHemsley: Nothing is /lost/ on the original branch, but the branch you cherrypick into won't automatically get the commit message and whatnot.
[08:57] <Peng_> Ehh, I suck at explaining things.
[08:57] <Peng_> Anyway! What you want is possible in bzr.
[08:57] <GPHemsley> heh, no problem
[08:58] <GPHemsley> So, can you merge in just a single changeset?
[08:58] <GPHemsley> or revision? or whatever they're called here?
[08:59] <Peng_> GPHemsley: Yes, but it won't be as smooth as merging in everything. It's basically equivalent to doing a diff, patch and making a new commit.
[09:00] <GPHemsley> right
[09:00] <GPHemsley> so no worse than CVS
[09:00] <GPHemsley> but better in the sense that you *don't* have to do three commands ;)
[09:02] <fullermd> To say nothing of actually using CVS  ;)
[09:04] <GPHemsley> fullermd: Heh. Well, I switched from CVS to SVN, but I really don't like SVN. And I've been finding myself yearning for Bazaar commands.
[09:05] <GPHemsley> So who would like to volunteer to walk me through the conversion process? :)
[09:07] <GPHemsley> Oh, and I'm doing all of this on Sourceforge, BTW
[09:09] <GPHemsley> fullermd: You up for the challenge? I know you've been helpful to me in the past. :)
[09:16] <Peng_> cvs to bzr or svn to bzr?
[09:17] <GPHemsley> SVN
[09:17] <Peng_> bzr-svn.
[09:17] <GPHemsley> I already did CVS to SVN a while back
[09:17] <GPHemsley> link?
[09:18] <Peng_> GPHemsley: http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForeignBranches/Subversion
[09:18] <GPHemsley> k, thanks
[09:19] <GPHemsley> So, will I have to use the version specifically for 1.10, or can I use the latest version?
[09:22] <Peng_> GPHemsley: You'll have to use an older release of bzr-svn.
[09:22] <Peng_> Upgrading bzr would really be better.
[09:22] <GPHemsley> Do you know why that is? It seems silly.
[09:22] <GPHemsley> And I can't upgrade. Like I said, I'm using SourceForge.
[09:23] <mwhudson> GPHemsley: you can use a newer bzr to do the conversion
[09:23] <mwhudson> then push it to sf just fine
[09:23] <GPHemsley> mwhudson: Oh, OK, so it's for the version that I have on my computer?
[09:23] <mwhudson> right
[09:23] <GPHemsley> oh, then that's easy
[09:24] <Peng_> FYI (since I don't want my grepping to go to waste!), the last version compatible with bzr 1.10 is 0.5rc1.
[09:25] <GPHemsley> heh, thanks
[09:25] <GPHemsley> it's on the page, though ;)
[09:26] <Peng_> Oooh. I skipped that section of the page. I'd put my foot in my mouth, but it isn't very clean.
[09:26] <GPHemsley> heh, I wouldn't recommend that then
[09:26] <Peng_> Oh well, it was still fun to figure out. :)
[09:27] <GPHemsley> was that in the source code or something?
[09:27] <Peng_> Yeah.
[09:27] <GPHemsley> cool
[09:34] <lifeless> Peng_: you should try washing your mouth sometime; then it will be clean
[09:35]  * fullermd has never done svn -> bzr.
[09:35] <fullermd> Facing up to the time to move to svn was what made me choose bzr in the first place   :p
[09:36] <GPHemsley> heh
[09:37] <Peng_> lifeless: I know. My dentist is going to murder me. Or she'll charge me a lot of money and be happy, I guess.
[09:38] <fullermd> To say nothing of your podiatrist.
[09:53] <GPHemsley> Alright, so I need subvertpy for this
[09:53] <GPHemsley> I try to install with via MacPorts and it tells me it doesn't know where my svn development files are
[09:53] <GPHemsley> And, well, neither do I
[09:53] <Peng_> They might not be installed.
[09:54] <GPHemsley> where do I get them?
[09:56] <lifeless> presumably via macports
[09:56] <lifeless> I believe we have .dmg installers for bzr which include bzr-svn though
[09:57] <GPHemsley> lifeless: Kindly point
[10:06] <GPHemsley> mwhudson: What format will bzr-svn use? Will it be compatible with the server's 1.10?
[10:07] <Peng_> GPHemsley: Yes.
[10:09] <GPHemsley> OK... but I'm still having trouble with subvertpy
[10:09] <GPHemsley> where would the SVN development files be?
[10:10] <GPHemsley> could the problem have to do with what I used to install SVN?
[10:20] <GPHemsley> ugh... I can't set the environmental variable for some reason...
[10:20] <GPHemsley> (I found the files)
[10:20] <AfC> Why does it say "bzr+ssh" but "<bzrlib"? (ie, what's with the extra '<' ?)
[10:20] <AfC> [actually, I'd like to know why it bothers to say this at all, but whatever]
[10:20]  * GPHemsley wonders what AfC is talking about
[10:21] <AfC> GPHemsley: bzr's current iteration of text presented while network operations are underway
[10:21] <GPHemsley> ah
[10:23]  * fullermd doesn't recall any bzrlib in the output.
[10:27] <Peng_> AfC: It displays < and > to show if it's currently reading from or writing to the network.
[10:32] <GPHemsley> Any idea why the subvertpy script is not picking up my environmental variables?
[10:32] <GPHemsley> the install script, that is
[10:32] <GPHemsley> (via MacPorts' port command)
[10:38] <GPHemsley> Peng_: Any idea?
[10:47] <lifeless> GPHemsley: http://bazaar-vcs.org/Download
[10:47] <GPHemsley> that's what I use
[10:47] <GPHemsley> bzr-svn is not included
[10:48] <lifeless> oh, ok
[10:48] <AfC> Peng_: no, that '<' and '>' are separate, also appearing on the line
[10:48] <AfC> Which is why I'm asking
[10:49] <lifeless> AfC: pastebin :P
[10:53] <davidstrauss> The date in NEWS.html for 1.15rc1 is wrong.
[10:53] <davidstrauss> Simple copy/paste error.
[10:54]  * davidstrauss goes to bed now.
[10:57] <AfC> lifeless: I'll try.
[10:58] <AfC> [/                  ] <bzrlib <      1KB     0KB/s |
[11:15] <GPHemsley> ugh.... I can't even compile subvertpy by hand because it fails with a different error...
[11:15] <GPHemsley> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
[11:15] <GPHemsley> lipo: can't open input file: /var/tmp//ccJpbdpb.out (No such file or directory)
[11:15] <GPHemsley> error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1
[11:16] <GPHemsley> oh, hmm...
[11:16] <GPHemsley> looks like there's a bigger problem
[11:24] <GPHemsley> ugh, I don't know what to do
[11:24] <GPHemsley> everything I try errors out one way or another
[11:30] <crisb> any loggerheads around?
[11:45] <Peng_> crisb: At least 0.2. Sometimes. Why?
[11:48] <crisb> just trying to do serve --http on the trunk - it blows up because BranchesFromTransportRoot has an arg missing, added that arg in and now it just says no such option --http!
[11:49] <Peng_> crisb: What's the missing arg?
[11:50] <Peng_> crisb: Oh, I see. Hmm.
[11:50] <crisb> peng_: a config object.  used the serve-branches code as a copy
[11:50] <Peng_> crisb: Right.
[11:51] <Peng_> Darn. Now not only do I have to test start-loggerhead, but plugin mode as well.
[11:52] <crisb> peng_: dont think LoggerheadConfig() works in this situation which is what I did
[11:52] <Peng_> crisb: The problem is that the config object parses the command line arguments, but it doesn't know what to do with "serve --http".
[11:52] <crisb> ahah
[11:53] <Peng_> So now I've accidentally broken both start-loggerhead and "serve --http". Nice! :D
[11:54] <crisb> ;)
[11:56] <crisb> shall I file it?
[11:57] <Peng_> crisb: Sure.
[12:00] <crisb> peng_: number 377551 is born
[12:02] <Peng_> crisb: Thanks.
[12:07] <pmezard> what's the best way to detect lightweight checkouts programmatically, with maximum compatibility across bzrlib versions? is it what bzr info does?
[12:17] <Peng_> crisb: I have a fix up in a branch at http://bzr.mattnordhoff.com/bzr/loggerhead/serve-http-config -- does it work for you?
[12:22] <crisb> Peng_: sorted, yep looking great.
[12:22] <Peng_> crisb: It works? Really? Awesome. :)
[12:26] <crisb> ;) handy now I can package it for mandriva as a plugin
[15:21] <max_r> hi all. I have a question: I saw that you are developing new serialization format to replace XML called RIO. Why aren't you using something already implemented/stable/fast like google protocol buffers?
[15:34] <jelmer> max_r: Extra dependency in Bazaar, extra build complexity (need to compile .proto files)
[15:35] <jelmer> max_r: Also, RIO is already used in other places in Bazaar
[15:35] <jelmer> max_r: It just wasn't fast enough yet
[15:36] <Laney> is there a way to "merge" a commit with the current one without doing uncommit/commit?
[15:37] <amanica> Laney: you can't change a commit
[15:37] <Laney> ok
[15:38] <max_r> jelmer: I see thanks
[18:41] <alefteris> hi all! lets say I want to create a new branch but bring only a single file, together with its history, is it possible? Or I have to branch the usual way and then delete the files I don't need?
[18:45] <davidstrauss> alefteris: Are you on bzr 1.14?
[18:45] <alefteris> yes
[18:45] <davidstrauss> alefteris: make a new directory, move the file there, and then bzr split that directory
[18:45] <davidstrauss> alefteris: This new directory should be in your existing tree
[18:45] <davidstrauss> alefteris: (and added)
[18:46] <davidstrauss> alefteris: That will turn the new directory into a distinct bzr tree that keeps all history for that file.
[18:47] <davidstrauss> alefteris: You may want to branch before doing the moving and splitting, just to avoid messing up your current branch.
[18:48] <alefteris> so make a new dir, add it, move the file in there, then bzr split this dir, correct?
[18:48] <davidstrauss> alefteris: Yes.
[18:49] <alefteris> davidstrauss, move the file manualy or through bzr?
[18:49] <davidstrauss> alefteris: And the split dir will be its own tree/branch with all history for that file pulled in.
[18:49] <davidstrauss> alefteris: through bzr
[18:49] <alefteris> ok thanks a lot
[19:07] <alefteris> all those different branch formats are meant to provide different options for different needs or newer ones are supposed to replace the previous ones?
[19:11] <alefteris> davidstrauss, I get a branch format error when doing the split, whats the required format that i should upgrade to?
[19:11] <davidstrauss> alefteris: you need a rich root format
[19:11] <alefteris> 1.14?
[19:11] <davidstrauss> alefteris: any rich root format will work
[19:12] <davidstrauss> alefteris: bzr upgrade --1.9-rich-root
[19:13] <davidstrauss> alefteris: I'm still wary of 1.14's format
[19:13] <davidstrauss> alefteris: There are issues with it being fixed in 1.15+
[19:13] <alefteris> davidstrauss, can you tell me anything about the previous question or there is any doc, explaning the various bzr formats?
[19:13] <davidstrauss> alefteris: http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/bzr.dev/en/user-reference/bzr_man.html#upgrade
[19:14] <davidstrauss> alefteris: http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/bzr.dev/en/user-reference/bzr_man.html#split
[19:14] <davidstrauss> "This command will produce a target tree in a format that supports rich roots, like 'rich-root' or 'rich-root-pack'."
[19:14] <alefteris> davidstrauss, I mean this one: all those different branch formats are meant to provide different options for different needs or newer ones are supposed to replace the previous ones?
[19:14] <davidstrauss> alefteris: The newer ones replace the older ones
[19:15] <davidstrauss> alefteris: Eventually old ones are obsoleted
[19:15] <davidstrauss> alefteris: The current default format is 0.92
[19:16] <davidstrauss> alefteris: Details are all here: http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/latest/developers/development-repo.html
[19:16] <alefteris> davidstrauss, how come then that the default format is still so old? the newer ones are not so stable/tryed yet?
[19:17] <davidstrauss> alefteris: 0.92 is compatible with bzr >=0.92. Other versions require newer releases.
[19:18] <davidstrauss> alefteris: We're waiting for newer releases to become more widespread before upping the default version. It's not a question of stability.
[19:19] <alefteris> so it's basicaly in order to have branches compatible with older version of bzr in servers etc?
[19:19] <davidstrauss> alefteris: yes
[19:19] <alefteris> cool thanks a lot david for your answers :)
[19:22] <davidstrauss> alefteris: sure
[23:06] <dlee> I do net admin for a small office of Windows users, but since I write a number of utilities in Perl/Python that use Unix-like tools, I have set up a central way of running such tools under Cygwin without having to install Cygwin on each workstation.
[23:07] <dlee> Question:  Is there anything different in the Windows (stand-alone I suppose) Bazaar build, versus building from the tar, that would make it better than running the source Bazaar under Cygwin Python 2.5?
[23:07] <dlee> I'm mostly thinking of filename casing and EOL...
[23:09] <lifeless> I'm not aware of any patches in the code
[23:09] <lifeless> we do check platform forsome stuff, and IIRC cygwin shows up as a unix platform in python
[23:09] <dlee> I had problems in older Bazaar versions when, say, trying to version file sets on Windows machines when people saved with inconsistent name casing, but I think that even happened under Windows bzr stand-alone back then.
[23:10] <dlee> sys.platform == 'cygwin'
[23:11] <cr3> bzr is returning an assertion error for a file which was removed and later added again: bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AssertionError: name u'system_manager.py' already in parent
[23:13] <cr3> this is kinda preventing me from committing or doing anything else with my branch :(
[23:14] <cr3> meh, I just killed my other branch and rebranched
[23:14] <lifeless> dlee: yes, we should handle that better now
[23:15] <dlee> lifeless:  Wonderful!   You don't even have to lose the files in the working tree.
[23:35] <cr3> Peng_: cheers
[23:50] <Peng_> beuno: unping. I sent an email instead.