[07:50] <paradisaeidae_> Is there somewhere where there is info on migrating from using apt-get to snap? When I have previously installed with apt?
[07:51] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: not sure quite what you are looking for... they are two separate ways to install software. They can be used together on the same system if you'd like
[07:52] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: are you on ubuntu core? Or just looking at how to install snaps in general?
[07:53] <paradisaeidae_> I've just done a 'snap install inkscape' on Lub:16.04:E20... then apt-get riove inkscape, now bash does not find inkscape binary
[07:54] <paradisaeidae_> ....apt-get remove inkscape...
[07:55] <lutostag> theoretically that should work... I didn't know inkscape was snapped, I'll try on my end and see if I hit anything myself. Gimme just a sec
[07:56] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: works for me -- I didnt uninstall my apt-version of inkscape
[07:57] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: for me I have a binary in /snap/bin/inkscape
[07:58] <paradisaeidae_> thX! Looks like the apt-get install snap did not add the /snap/bin to $PATH
[07:58] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: cool, yeah, I have /etc/profile.d/apps-bin-path.sh on my system that does it for me
[08:01] <paradisaeidae_> ok, so how does the command execute? I get ~/snap/inkscape/1880: Bad file descriptor
[08:02] <paradisaeidae_> When invoking the sof t link: /snap/bin/inkscape
[08:02] <lutostag> yeah, that's all I have to do...
[08:03] <paradisaeidae_> What's in your /etc/profile.d/apps-bin-path.sh?
[08:03] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: do you have a directory at ~/snap/inkscape/1880 ? I do, which was installed by the snap install command
[08:03] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: http://pastebin.com/QDzTxPVv
[08:04] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: out of curiosity, what distro are you on?
[08:04] <paradisaeidae_> I'm on Lubuntu 16.04 with E-0.21
[08:06] <paradisaeidae_> I do, but it is empty. Just did PATH=$PATH:/snap/bin at cli.
[08:06] <paradisaeidae_> Now I see cannot create user data directory: ~/snap/inkscape/1880: Bad file descriptor
[08:08] <lutostag> hmm... curious indeed
[08:09] <lutostag> if you do an $ ls -ld ~/snap/inkscape/1880 #is it just a regular dir owned by your user (non-root)?
[08:10] <paradisaeidae_> Looks like it: drwxr-xr-x 2
[08:10] <lutostag> and looks like that directory was created on first run of /snap/bin/inkscape ... rather than on installation as I first said
[08:10] <paradisaeidae_> yep
[08:11] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: same here
[08:14] <paradisaeidae_> # /snap/inkscape/1880/bin/inkscape files are root.root
[08:14] <lutostag> same again
[08:15] <lutostag> tedg_: is the maintainer of that snap looks like, he might be able to help further
[08:15] <paradisaeidae_> When I try to run it: /snap/inkscape/1880/bin/inkscape: error while loading shared libraries: libpotrace.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
[08:16] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: I've got a different one, but similar "/snap/inkscape/1880/bin/inkscape: error while loading shared libraries: libpoppler.so.58: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"
[08:17] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: which is probably because the snap wrapper sets the library directories correctly along with a bunch of other stuff
[08:17] <paradisaeidae_> OK, thanks again. It's possibly a packaging thing. I'm sure it will get sorted.
[08:18] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: well you got me using the inkscape snap now at least, so thanks :)
[08:18] <lutostag> (althought not quite what you were hoping I'm sure :/)
[08:18] <paradisaeidae_> yep, good result there. It is an oarsome proggy.
[08:19] <paradisaeidae_> Does Inkscape run at all for you?
[08:21] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: yep, both do -- side-by-side even https://imgur.com/a/QJamv
[08:21] <lutostag> kinda neat
[08:22] <paradisaeidae_> Yes, hmmm. Was hoping to see that here. Will get it going sometme.
[08:23] <paradisaeidae_> Have to break for the day. Monster warm here in SYD. Sleep on beach evening. Cya!
[08:23] <lutostag> yeah, this channel is a little quiet at the moment, if you stick around and try again later, I'm sure someone with more knowledge will figure it out for us
[08:23] <lutostag> paradisaeidae_: feel free to make a https://askubuntu.com/ too, have a good one!
[08:23] <paradisaeidae_> Ciao!
[12:10] <zap12344> Hello. I managed to build a working snap package for pcsx2 https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-kthB5RpM8kb0h2eGpoRllWZDA I had to compile it in a 32bit vm and made a small edit in the desktop-gtk launcher. There are some problems, but when using sdl audio output the emulator works. It doesn't work with nVidia driver and it doesn't found automatically the configuration paths
[12:25] <mcphail> zap12344: the nvidia driver thing is a pain. You can probably work around it by dumping the needed files in the snap. I had to do that for a dosbox snap
[12:29] <zap12344> macphail: my intuition is that snapd only exports the 64 bit nVidia driver and this snap is a 32bit software running on a 64bit architecture. what files did you put in the snap?
[12:32] <mup> PR snapd#2790 opened: Add a check for an empty argv in snap-confine.c <Created by eriksjolund> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/2790>
[12:34] <mcphail> zap12344: ages since I made the snap, but this is the contents of my lib directory: http://termbin.com/4ct6
[12:35] <mcphail> zap12344: I had to keep adding various bits of mesa etc until it "worked". Never quite sure why it worked, though. Some of it was copies from the qt snaps which were around at the time
[12:39] <zap12344> mcphail: https://github.com/ubuntu/snapcraft-desktop-helpers/blob/master/common/desktop-exports#L26 they added this bit if you use a launcher to use nVidia driver, but in my case since I need the 32bit version I'm out of luck
[12:59] <mup> PR # closed: snapd#2230, snapd#2236, snapd#2251, snapd#2302, snapd#2421, snapd#2475, snapd#2477, snapd#2488, snapd#2513, snapd#2515, snapd#2524, snapd#2558, snapd#2570, snapd#2588, snapd#2592, snapd#2604, snapd#2624, snapd#2626, snapd#2644, snapd#2654, snapd#2677, snapd#2680, snapd#2707,
[12:59] <mup> snapd#2714, snapd#2718, snapd#2723, snapd#2737, snapd#2746, snapd#2747, snapd#2749, snapd#2750, snapd#2752, snapd#2754, snapd#2757, snapd#2760, snapd#2761, snapd#2763, snapd#2764, snapd#2766, snapd#2768, snapd#2769, snapd#2770, snapd#2771, snapd#2772, snapd#2773, snapd#2774, snapd#2775, snapd#2776,
[12:59] <mup> snapd#2778, snapd#2779, snapd#2780, snapd#2782, snapd#2783, snapd#2784, snapd#2786, snapd#2787, snapd#2788, snapd#2789, snapd#2790
[13:00] <mup> PR # opened: snapd#2230, snapd#2236, snapd#2251, snapd#2302, snapd#2421, snapd#2475, snapd#2477, snapd#2488, snapd#2513, snapd#2515, snapd#2524, snapd#2558, snapd#2570, snapd#2588, snapd#2592, snapd#2604, snapd#2624, snapd#2626, snapd#2644, snapd#2654, snapd#2677, snapd#2680, snapd#2707,
[13:00] <mup> snapd#2714, snapd#2718, snapd#2723, snapd#2737, snapd#2746, snapd#2747, snapd#2749, snapd#2750, snapd#2752, snapd#2754, snapd#2757, snapd#2760, snapd#2761, snapd#2763, snapd#2764, snapd#2766, snapd#2768, snapd#2769, snapd#2770, snapd#2771, snapd#2772, snapd#2773, snapd#2774, snapd#2775, snapd#2776,
[13:00] <mup> snapd#2778, snapd#2779, snapd#2780, snapd#2782, snapd#2783, snapd#2784, snapd#2786, snapd#2787, snapd#2788, snapd#2789, snapd#2790
[13:04] <AleksandrG> hey guys, does anybody have issues with running a command for a snap in try mode?
[13:04] <AleksandrG> it always fails with a message like this:
[13:04] <AleksandrG> cannot snap-exec: cannot read info for "hello-world-desktop": stat /var/lib/snapd/snaps/hello-world-desktop_x1.snap: no such file or directory
[13:09] <zyga> hi
[13:09] <zyga> hmm
[13:09] <zyga> that's odd
[13:10] <zyga> can you please tell me which version of snapd are you using (snap version)
[13:11] <shuduo> mwhudson: hi
[13:11] <zyga> AleksandrG: ^
[13:11] <zyga> also if this is on the recent version, can you please report it at launchpad.net/snapd
[13:12] <zyga> shuduo: mwhudson is in a timezone far-far away, maybe I can help you?
[13:16] <AleksandrG> just a sec..
[13:16] <shuduo> zyga: hi, i'm investigating why mwhudson's go snap can't be execute on my side. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/snapcraft/2017-February/002950.html now i think i found the problem is /snap/core is not exist on my machine. after i link /snap/ubuntu-core to /snap/core it works now. i wonder when /snap/core be generated. thanks. :)
[13:16] <AleksandrG> snap    2.21+16.10 snapd   2.21+16.10 series  16 ubuntu  16.10
[13:17] <zyga> shuduo: I see,
[13:17] <zyga> shuduo: snapd 2.22 hadnles the transition form ubuntu-core to core automatically
[13:17] <zyga> shuduo: you can probably switch to the candidate channel (of ubuntu-core)
[13:18] <zyga> shuduo: to have that happen
[13:18] <zyga> shuduo: just remove the symlink :-)
[13:18] <AleksandrG> zyga: is this the bug that causes snap-exec error? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/snap-confine/+bug/1631270
[13:18] <mup> Bug #1631270: running a command for a snap in try mode fails on trusty <trusty> <Snappy Launcher:Invalid> <Snappy:Fix Released by thomas-voss> <snap-confine (Ubuntu):Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1631270>
[13:20] <zyga> AleksandrG: no, that is unique to 14.04
[13:20] <shuduo> zyga: good to know that root cause. could you please point me what's best way to swtich to candidate?
[13:20] <zyga> AleksandrG: and systemd / upstart and how they change sharing of /
[13:21] <zyga> shuduo: sudo snap refresh ubuntu-core --candidate
[13:21] <zyga> shuduo: then wait for a sec (observe snap changes)
[13:23] <shuduo> zyga: oh got it. i thought i should switch everything to another channel.. thanks. :)
[13:24] <AleksandrG> so if I install snapd 2.22, the error should be gone, right?
[13:26] <AleksandrG> nevermind, I'll try 2.22 and will see. Thanks for the help!
[13:34] <shuduo> zyga: seems candidate's ubuntu-core still use /snap/ubuntu-core. i even refresh latest version from edge channel.
[13:47] <shuduo> zyga: seems candidate's ubuntu-core still use /snap/ubuntu-core. i even refresh latest version from edge channel now it works.
[13:54] <shuduo> zyga: i tried candidate's ubuntu-core on 1610. it works to transition to core as expected. thanks.
[15:15] <mup> Bug #1661966 opened: snapd should also have a 32bit nVidia mount point  <32bit> <i386> <nvidia> <snap-confine> <Snappy:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1661966>
[15:26] <thresh> so.. how does versioning in ubuntu store workds?
[15:26] <thresh> works
[15:26] <thresh> right now I have the version, ahem, "daily" for VLC
[15:27] <thresh> I would like to move to something like 3.0.0-$date, maybe followed by 3.0.0-release when the release version is there
[15:27] <thresh> is it the same as in dpkg?
[15:31] <thresh> can I just bump the version the way I want, and it will automagically be updated for the end users?
[15:31] <thresh> sorry for asking noob questions, I'm still the old fart using apt :-)
[15:47] <palasso> thresh: every time you make a new snap a counter increases. There's also a version field but that's not related to updating, it's there to give context to a human person
[15:48] <palasso> thresh: I mean every time you publish a new snap for your application
[15:49] <palasso> thresh: Revision is the counter being updated. Every new snap you upload increases revision by one. The version field can be anything
[15:53] <palasso> thresh: there's also a thing called channels. There's stable, candidate, beta and edge. You can upload snaps on each channel depending on how stable they are. For example nightly releases could be in the edge channel, beta releases in the beta channel, RC releases in the candidate channel and stable releases in the stable channel
[15:58] <thresh> thank you palasso, it is now very clear
[16:01] <oky> can someone point me to the list of available snaps? i'm trying to determine how to name the snap i am creating
[16:02] <oky> (snap find times out for me, on my machine. btw)
[16:02] <oky> oops, there it goes!
[16:06] <palasso> oky: https://uappexplorer.com/apps?type=snappy
[16:19] <oky> perfect, thanks palasso
[20:31] <oky> i'm trying out 'snapcraft cleanbuild', but the network is not getting attached to the lxc container
[20:32] <oky> i'm googling around, looking for troubleshooting tipcs, etc. any keywords that would help? i'm looking for 'snapcraft lxc network' and 'lxc network', etc.
[21:32] <oky> ok, i installed dnsmasq, restarted my machine, etc. now cleanbuild can see my network, but it errors saying something like 'missing snapcraft.yaml, did you try to run snapcraft init'
[21:34] <oky> so far, snapcraft is really cool - i like the idea of containment + wiring up multiple packages together
[21:38] <oky> i think the issue re: missing snapcraft might be related to this link i found: https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/commit/e35826ed401a7ed05a9c2046346307bc3fb76217, bc i noticed that the 'setting up container with project assets' is missing my snap/ dir. i will wait for next release of snapcraft, i think
[23:02] <swluo> hello?
[23:02] <swluo> anyone here?


[00:00] <Pici> python's executable for python3 is well.. python3.
[00:01] <Pici> both pythons normally can live together on the same system.  and a virtualenv doesn't really apply for installs of python itself.
[00:01] <Pici> Then again, I'd be a bit wary installing any packages on an EOL system
[00:46] <supachick> !ops | http://youtu.be/-5RW_w3wg6E?t=27m18s
[02:43] <apb1963>  How can I install "ActiveApp" in kubuntu 12.04?  apt-get can't seem to find it.  There was a pointer to this link: https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/base/plasma-mobile but I don't know what to do with it.
[03:22] <em> apb1963: is this the thing you would like to install? https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-active/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
[04:14] <apb1963> em: No that doesn't look like the same package as far as I can tell.
[04:17] <apb1963> I'm trying to build okular.  It says:
[04:17] <apb1963> ActiveApp (0.1 or higher)  <https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/base/plasma-mobile>
[04:17] <apb1963>      Support for developing applications for Plasma Active
[05:45] <MannyVel> There was a "gear" symbol in the upper right hand side of Muon Discover. I right clicked and selected "hide". How do I get it back? Anyone know?
[05:46] <hyper_ch> hi there, for some reasons hdmi stopped working
[07:36] <MannyVela> Is this the "Questions" group?
[07:36] <MannyVela> Hello???????????????
[07:39] <lordievader> MannyVela: See the topic ;)
[07:41] <MannyVela> Sorry. Was just curious. No one had said a single word here in a couple hours...... geez.
[07:42] <lordievader> MannyVela: As usual in the morning (for European time) it is quiet ;)
[08:15] <andy123_> MannyVela: Its a bug. You have to remove the config file to see the menu again.
[08:15] <andy123_> for kubuntu 14.04: rm ~/.kde/share/config/muon-discoverrc
[08:25] <alvin> Well, that was a bad start of the day. fsck -y / --> bye data. Let's put everything in lost+found....
[08:34] <alvin> Separate /home ftw, although I wish the installer would support that when using encryption. Now, it's a chore.
[08:49] <function9> alvin: are you experiencing data corruption?
[08:50] <alvin> function9: Yes. There's nothing left. Kubuntu wanted to do a check on boot, like it always does in the morning. (it's weird. Every day it does a check, then reboots). This time, I logged into a shell and ran the fsck myself. It 'fixed' a lot. Now all data on / is gone.
[08:50] <alvin> I'm using disk encryption (lvm on luks)
[08:51] <alvin> I'm now taking a backup of my other volumes, and then it's reinstall time :-(.
[08:52] <function9> oh, I haven't dabbled on lvm or luks yet. I hear it's a bit tedious
[08:55] <function9> that reminds me, I too need to make a back up. bbl
[08:57] <alvin> I have to admit tha Kubuntu is one of the few distributions that can actually do this partly well in the installer. Derivates like Netrunner or Mint can't do it.
[08:58] <alvin> Whih is weird. I got it to work without problems on Gentoo. Not on Arch. Kubuntu was easiest. BUT there's a big drawback. The installer creates a volume group and fills it with 1 big root volume. So, you have to shrink that afterwards if you want a separate /home
[08:59] <alvin> I'll be very silent about separate /usr and find some rotten tomatoes to throw in Lennart's general direction. That limitation should be in store for us in October, when Kubuntu 14.10 gets released.
[09:03]  * alvin just found out that ext4 does support dump/restore
[09:04] <alvin> Why did nobody tell me?
[09:10] <FuzzyWhirlpool> glad you find it, alvin!
[09:55] <Wizard> eagles0513875: ping
[09:55] <lordievader> Hey Wizard, haven't seen you in a while. How are you?
[09:56] <Wizard> Yo.
[09:56] <Wizard> Quite fine :)
[09:56] <Wizard> I had to move away from linux for some time.
[09:57] <Wizard> Unfortunately.
[09:57] <Wizard> However, things are going fine.
[09:57] <Wizard> Cash flows, beer flows ;D
[09:57] <lordievader> Move away from Linux? Blasphemy!
[09:57] <lordievader> Wizard: Hehe, that's good :D
[09:58] <Wizard> Any sign of KDE5 in Kubuntu?
[09:58] <Wizard> I'd take a look in free time.
[09:59] <lordievader> Wizard: There are ppa, it won't be included in Kubuntu until KF5.2
[10:00] <Wizard> Ah. So I'd have to install it simewhere to have a glimpse.
[10:00] <Wizard> Hmm..
[10:03] <lordievader> Wizard: There are iso's available ;)
[10:04] <Wizard> :D
[10:04] <Wizard> Cool.
[10:04] <Wizard> I wonder how much ram it eats.
[10:11] <shadeslayer> Wizard: there's no KDE5
[10:13] <naftilos76> Hi, my kubuntu 14.04 used to find my bluetooth adapter but not any more. After one of many updates i could not connect to my bluetooth headphones and later i discovered that doing an "hcitool dev" did not return any results.  I did not force anybody to answer.
[10:59] <BluesKaj> 'Morning folks
[11:10] <alvin> Is it even possible to manually partition when using crypt?
[11:13] <lordievader> alvin: In the case of LUKS, yes. Open the vault, mount partitions ;)
[11:14] <alvin> I know how to manually partition using the command line. But what then? I don't know how to call the installer and tell it what goes where.
[11:16] <alvin> Previously, I let the installer do it all, and then used a livecd to shrink the encrypted LVM.
[11:16] <lordievader> alvin: Could you explain your problem in full? I have no idea what you are trying to do.
[11:18] <alvin> lordievader: Well, the Kubuntu installed offers te possibility to use encrypted LVM. Very easy to use. Type in your password twice and go. But then it creates a layout which I'm not happy with. I want a larger /boot (ext2), and I don't want the whole LVM group filled with one / partition. I want a separate /home.
[11:19] <alvin> Now, you can start to partition manually, but there's no way to set up the encryption then.
[11:19] <lordievader> alvin: Correct the graphical installer does not support those "advanced" options. What I did was use the mini iso. The text based installer does allow for such configurations.
[11:20] <alvin> I wasn't aware there is a mini iso. Is that something like the alternate installer there used to be?
[11:22] <lordievader> alvin: Somewhat, yes. However, this one is stripped of everything but the bare essentials. It pulls in the extra packages from the internet.
[11:23] <alvin> lordievader: Is it as easy as: install as you wish, then install kubuntu-desktop?
[11:29] <lordievader> alvin: Pretty much, yes.
[11:29] <alvin> lordievader: Thanks. You might have saved my day. (I lost my root partition to fsck this morning)
[11:38] <lordievader> alvin: How come? Power outage?
[11:39] <zen_> was just testing kubuntu-next on utopic, but widget-style does not work, theme looks like gtk used to look in earlier days
[11:40] <kodanda> Hi all; I have just now installed project-neon5-plasma5 on Kubuntu 14.04
[11:41] <kodanda> installation went well. But when I login after selecting project neon5 session from lightdm login screen. I see a blank screen
[11:41] <kodanda> in the .xession-errors i see a lot of errors about akonadi
[11:42] <kodanda> has anybody seen similar issue?
[11:44] <alvin> lordievader: No, that system wants a daily fsck. Today, it went wrong. I typed it manually somehow. can't remember what happened. I got into a shell and did fsck -y / Then suddenly, root was empty. Only a pretty filled lost+found directory.
[11:46] <alvin> (I have no idea why it wanted to check daily. I believe the shutdown procedure is somehow bugged. I wished for years that Kubuntu would start using a sane init system, but my prayers weren't answered.)
[11:47] <kodanda> noone with project-neon5 on trusty?
[11:47] <lordievader> alvin: Sound more like a buggy filesystem. What filesystem do you use?
[11:48] <alvin> ext4
[11:50] <alvin> But it was only on / . I have a separate /home and that was never a problem. I believe the problem is that you can't unmount / on shutdown when LVM is encrypted. At least that's the case on Gentoo. With Kubuntu, of course, there's no proper logging and due to the nice looking splash screen you can't see what goes wrong. (Yes, I have Upstart)
[11:50] <alvin> have and hate
[11:50] <mparillo> kodanda: I had it for a while. I followed these directions: https://techbase.kde.org/Getting_Started/Using_Project_Neon_to_contribute_to_KDE#Installing_Project_Neon_5
[11:51] <alvin> Debian is much, much more reliable as a base system than Ubuntu is. Because of things like Upstart. Of course, when both go to systemd, we'll have to see what happens.
[11:52] <Walex> alvin: I use both and Ubuntu/Kubuntu are quite reliable
[11:53] <lordievader> alvin: Never had a problem with LUKS + LVM on either Kubuntu or Gentoo.
[11:53] <lordievader> Also no daily fsck'ing.
[11:54] <Walex> alvin: BTW the splash screen etc. are from 'plymouth', not 'upstart', and there is both a text-only, "traditional looking" 'plymouth' mode, and the main purpose of 'plymouth' is to log the boot messages to a file...
[11:54] <kodanda> anyone with project-neon5 on kubuntu 14.04?
[11:54] <alvin> Walex: You need something to compare with. I've had major trouble with Upstart in different situations.
[11:56] <alvin> lordievader: The disk is not broken. The only thing that's different on my machine is the kernel. It's 3.15 because of a bug with the wireless and bluetooth on 3.13
[11:58] <alvin> Walex: We haven't had boot logging for years. Now there's a /var/log/boot.log file. What's in it? "Starting Enabling additional executable binary formatsESC[74G[ESC[31mfailESC[39;49m]" Excuse me, what failed?
[11:59] <alvin> kodanda: Since my system failed anyway, I'll install it now. Just for fun. It sounds exciting.
[12:00] <Alma_de_poeta> how can i install flash player, thw wiki means software from gnome not kde
[12:00] <alvin> As far as KDE distributions go, Kubuntu might be the best. It's the base system that is lacking reliability.
[12:01] <alvin> Alma_de_poeta: apt install flashplugin-installer
[12:01] <Alma_de_poeta> thanks alvin
[12:02] <kodanda> thanks alvin. In fact, this is the first time I am using IRC and was wondering if any body could see my messages
[12:03] <alvin> kodanda: Aha, an IRC newbie in this day and age.
[12:03] <alket> kodanda: yes  we are :)
[12:04] <alvin> IRC is a bit like mail. People might not respond immediately. Maybe most of the people here are asleep or afk.
[12:07] <kodanda> alvin: I understand that. I was not at all complaining, but was meanwhile trying to check if all my configuration was OK.
[12:07] <kodanda> alket: thanks alket!
[12:07] <alvin> Oh, I didn't thought you were :-)
[12:16] <Alma_de_poeta> alvin it works in firefox, but dont install in chromiun
[12:18] <kodanda> alvin: just to give some more info on my installation as you are going to try to install. First, I did try kubuntu 14.04 fresh installation inside virtualbox.  I did not configure kmail or akonadi  in this though. Then installed project-neon5 from ppa:neon/kf5. All went fine, and I could use the plasma5 desktop. Since everthing seemed to go well, I then installed on my regular kubuntu 14.04 installation. This
[12:18] <kodanda> installation contained existing configurations of kmail and akonadi calenders (KDE 4.13.2). however, using project neon session from lightdm login screen  gives a black blank screen with a cursor, and .xsession-errors file reports errors due to akonadi after kdeinit5 gets terminated.
[12:19] <alvin> kodanda: Hmm. Well, if this works out, I intended to overwrite my /home We'll see. Now dd'ing the image.
[12:22] <alvin> Apparently, dd doesn't work...
[12:26] <BluesKaj> alvin,  what are you dd-ing?
[12:26] <alvin> The project Neon ISO
[12:29] <alvin> USB creator fails to install the bootloader (#bug 722019) because I have a backported version of syslinux, which I needed to flash my BIOS... So I used dd. Works for the kubuntu desktop iso.
[12:29] <TBotNik> em: Thnx!
[12:37] <Alma_de_poeta> im trying to install flash in chromiun, sudo /usr/sbin/update-pepperflashplugin-nonfree --status report its installed but in chromiun dont appear
[12:47] <BluesKaj> Alma_de_poeta,  http://helpx.adobe.com/flash-player/kb/flash-player-chromium.html ... not sure if pepperflash runs in chromium
[13:04] <alvin> ok, I'll have to ask. How do you create a bootable USB stick for those project Neon images?
[13:04] <alvin> So far, I tried: dd, usb-creator-kde and unetbootin
[13:05] <function9> pen drive linux
[13:06] <alvin> function9: Are you sure?
[13:12] <mparillo> alvin: I have been successful with unetbootin (alas on Win7) creating a Neon ISO.
[13:13] <alvin> mparillo: Not here. unetbootin reports success, but it just doesn't want to boot. Maybe EFI support is missing? I expected the same as the default Kubuntu installer, but it's not.
[13:14] <mparillo> Sorry alvin, I missed the part about EFI. None of my laptops have it eabled.
[13:14] <BluesKaj> alvin,  then try legacy mode
[13:15] <alvin> BluesKaj: I hate to switch between them and wanted to learn EFI.
[13:15] <alvin> Choices... Maybe I'll go on using 14.04 and try the Neon PPA.
[13:16] <BluesKaj> !UEFI | alvin
[13:16] <function9> alvin: if your pc/laptop has EFI, you need an ISO linux with EFI support
[13:17] <alvin> So, the question remains. Does the Neon image have EFI support? I believe not.
[13:18] <mparillo> alvin: You can ask in #project-neon, but I have had better luck in #kubuntu-devel
[13:18] <alvin> mparillo: ok
[13:24] <mparillo> For people who search archives, the answer to the question asked by alvin: <shadeslayer> alvin: I'm working on getting a Kubuntu ISO + Plasma 5 with EFI support
 though ETA is unknown
[13:25] <BluesKaj> alvin,  why not use the ppas rather than an iso file
[13:30] <alvin> BluesKaj: That's what I'll do. Need to fix my partition layout first.
[13:35] <SouL> I really need help. I don't know why but now, when I plug in my headphones, I can't listen a thing.
[13:35] <SouL> I'm at alsamixer
[13:35] <SouL> and I see that when I plug in the headphones, it mutes the "speaker" bar and it puts it at 0
[13:35] <SouL> I unmute it and give more volume but it does not works
[13:35] <SouL> work*
[13:36] <SouL> I'll not update anymore :/
[13:36] <BluesKaj> SouL,  which audio chip ?
[13:38] <Priyantha> thx for pointing me to here shadeslayer and Riddell :)
[13:39] <shadeslayer> SouL: try pavucontrol
[13:39] <BluesKaj> Priyantha, did you see my post in devel ? if not , install qt5-default
[13:40] <Priyantha> the package "qt5-default"
[13:40] <BluesKaj> yes
[13:40] <Priyantha> I have just installed that BluesKaj :)
[13:40] <SouL> BluesKaj: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7809071/
[13:40] <BluesKaj> ok Priyantha , now update and upgrade
[13:41] <SouL> shadeslayer: will try.
[13:41] <Priyantha> oki will try that now BluesKaj :)
[13:41] <shadeslayer> BluesKaj: no
[13:41] <shadeslayer> BluesKaj: staph
[13:42] <shadeslayer> don't ask people to install qt5-default
[13:42] <shadeslayer> that's just wrong
[13:42] <BluesKaj> SouL,  sudo modprobe snd_hda_intel , that should reload the driver, then you'll have to reboot
[13:42] <BluesKaj> shadeslayer,  oh? why?
[13:42] <BluesKaj> I had to
[13:42] <shadeslayer> BluesKaj: because it's not required
[13:43] <shadeslayer> and can mess up other stuff
[13:43] <Priyantha> http://paste.ubuntu.com/7809084/
[13:43] <BluesKaj> should i remove it then , shadeslayer ?
[13:43] <shadeslayer> BluesKaj: yes
[13:44] <BluesKaj> Priyantha,  sorry , I gave you bad advice, remove qt5-default
[13:44] <shadeslayer> Priyantha: sudo apt-get  -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true install kubuntu-plasma5-desktop
[13:45] <Priyantha> shadeslayer: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7809103/
[13:45] <Priyantha> I saw it yes BluesKaj ;)
[13:47] <Priyantha> I am currently deleting all the 'garbage' what the qt5-default metapackage had installed :)
[13:47] <kodanda> shadeslayer: you said "akonadi is not supported in plasma5". but in my virtualbox installation it worked. there I even did not disable akonadi
[13:47] <shadeslayer> dunno, it never worked for any of us who tried to use it in neon
[13:47] <shadeslayer> Riddell: halp http://paste.ubuntu.com/7809103/
[13:49] <shadeslayer> Priyantha: what release are you on
[13:49] <kodanda> shadeslayer: OK, to be more precise there I did not configure any accounts in kmail. so may be akonadi is not started contrary to what I was assuming.
[13:49] <shadeslayer> maybe
[13:50] <kodanda> In fact in the neon session I don't need akonadi or kmail
[13:50] <Priyantha> I am on Utopic shadeslayer
[13:50] <Priyantha> I have just dist-upgraded to that version
[13:50] <Priyantha> 14.10
[13:50] <kodanda> so i disabled it in  $HOEM/.project-neon5-kde/config/akonadi/akonadirc
[13:50] <shadeslayer> dist-upgraded ? :S
[13:50] <kodanda> but still no luck. Do I need to do more?
[13:50] <Riddell> Priyantha, shadeslayer: if I was me I'd see what happened if I installed the troublesmoe packages explicitly  apt-get install kubuntu-plasma5-desktop dolphin
[13:51] <shadeslayer> Priyantha: can you check if  you can reproduce this on a live session?
[13:51] <Priyantha> Well I mean just did a apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade
[13:51] <Priyantha> after altering the sources.list :)
[13:51] <shadeslayer> yeah, that sounds bad
[13:52] <Priyantha> mmm :(
[13:52] <Priyantha> how to mean reproduce on a live session ?
[13:54] <BluesKaj> Priyantha,  https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/ubuntu/next is the ppa to use for Utopic
[13:54] <Priyantha> I am using that ppa
[13:55] <Priyantha> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/next/ubuntu utopic main
[13:55] <Priyantha> I have in a entry placed in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
[13:56] <SouL> BluesKaj: Thank you very much, it worked.
[13:56]  * SouL is listening to music right now! :D
[13:56] <SouL> shadeslayer: thanks you too :)
[13:57] <shadeslayer> Priyantha: try : sudo apt-get -f install
[13:57] <shadeslayer> because your install seems broken
[13:57] <shadeslayer> since you took the wrong path to utopic
[13:57] <Priyantha> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
[13:57] <Priyantha> :)
[14:02] <Priyantha> time to leave to go home ;
[14:02] <Priyantha> :)
[14:02] <Priyantha> thx for the help for so far!
[14:04] <SouL> Yeah thanks this is awesome
[14:20] <alvin> lordievader: Your tip saved my day. I was able to partition exactly as I wanted, restored some file systems and Kubuntu is now installing from the mini iso. Well, Ubuntu. KDE will follow.
[14:25] <MichaelP> Is there any difference between using apt install package name and apt-get install package name ? beside apt having a progress bar
[14:29] <alvin> MichaelP: The progress bar is optional. You can disable it :-)
[14:29] <alvin> If I'm not mistaken 'apt' is some kind of wrapper. It's new. Maybe Debian wants to make it the default?
[14:30] <MichaelP> alvin: i was just wondering if there is any difference in the 2
[14:30] <alvin> MichaelP: I use apt regularly and I haven't noticed any difference.
[14:31] <MichaelP> I like the progress bar... Lets you see what you have left like when doing apt dist-upgrade
[14:31] <alvin> Me too :-)
[14:31] <alvin> Do I install Kubuntu Desktop or Kubuntu Full? What's the same as on the default install image?
[14:32] <MichaelP> think full is more of an harddrive hog
[14:32] <alvin> Desktop it is
[14:33] <alvin> Disk space is expensive :-) (On SSD)
[14:34] <MichaelP> That what i like about Arch linux... pacman -S kdebase kdeutils-ark kdeutils-kcalc kdemultimedia-kmix..... and you have a nice light kde
[14:35] <lordievader> alvin: :D
[14:35] <MichaelP> I was always told SSD's give you more trouble then IDE
[14:37] <MichaelP> over the normal hdd's
[14:37] <alvin> Hmm, no. Not really. Both types WILL fail. It's just a question of "when".
[14:38] <alvin> Drive recovery is harder, but that's why the first thing you configure on a new system is the backup. (See, I have major data loss today, but there are backups)
[14:38] <MichaelP> computer department at BestBuy was saying speed will cause more errors
[14:39] <alvin> The speed they're using apparently does.
[14:40] <lordievader> That is usually the trade off, look at wireless communication ;)
[14:40] <alvin> lol
[14:41] <MichaelP> an SDD is basicaly same setup on the inside on a usb stick right.. chips install of hard plate cd's
[14:41] <alvin> Larger mechanical hard drives cause more errors. Because of physics. At some point a solution will probably be found.
[14:41] <lordievader> MichaelP: Pretty much, yes.
[14:42] <MichaelP> wireless can be 6 feet from my router and loose connection lol
[14:42] <alvin> Yes, and they are so fast that you will never want to use mechanical drives again. Except for cheap storage or size.
[14:44] <MichaelP> I always see people on irc channels asking how install a distro on there ssd
[14:44] <lordievader> MichaelP: Higher bit rates mean higher bit error rates.
[14:45] <MichaelP> lordievader: is that on the wireless ?
[14:45] <MichaelP> or the hdd
[14:45] <lordievader> MichaelP: Counts for most things, wireless being one of them.
[14:46] <alket> why these are failing for me http://paste.kde.org/pn0nvjkyd
[14:46] <MichaelP> yeah that true... just like a car... faster you drive more likely you are to wipeout around a curve
[14:47] <lordievader> alket: sudo apt-get autoclean&&sudo apt-get update&&<apt-get command of your choice>
[14:48] <alvin> And the more services you start at the same time, the more likely your boot process will be messed up. Oh wait, I'm complaining about fancy init systems again.
[14:48] <alket> lordievader: thanks
[14:50] <MichaelP> time to reboot and see if everything for plasma next installed this time around on 14.10.... yesterday start menu did not work... and had to install a few packages by hand.. cause no desktop in lightdm to log into
[14:52] <MichaelP> this time looks like everything there...
[14:56] <MichaelP> guess yesterday... it might not have liked the btrfs.... Either that or ppa did some morework
[14:57] <alvin> That's living on the edge. btrfs and plasma5?
[14:58] <alket> how to change "shutdown look " ?
[14:58] <alket> the dialog
[14:59] <MichaelP> yesterday when i 1st installed 14.10... i looked at btrfs on google... and it said there was alot more improvements for kernel 3.16.... but now i back on ext4
[15:00] <alvin> lordievader: I was too optimistic. After installing from the mini.iso, I get dropped into an initramfs shell
[15:03] <function9> woah it's that time again
[15:06] <MichaelP> Plsama5 still got to switch from GLX to EGL...
[15:10] <lordievader> alvin: Did you install the lvm2 package?
[15:13] <The0x539> so how would I go about switching over to plasma 5?
[15:17] <shadeslayer> The0x539: install utopic, add next PPA, install meta pacakge
[15:17] <shadeslayer> The0x539: https://blogs.kde.org/2014/07/15/plasma-5-here-all-ready-eat-your-babies
[15:21] <The0x539> E: Unable to locate package kubuntu-plasma5-desktop
[15:22] <MichaelP> the ppa is for kubuntu 14.10.... for 14.04 you can only use neon project
[15:23] <The0x539> 14.10?
[15:23] <MichaelP> 14.10 still alpha
[15:23] <MichaelP> but stable
[15:24] <mircea> whici chanel have romanian ubuntu forum?
[15:25] <MichaelP> mircea: http://forum.ubuntu.ro/
[15:26] <MichaelP> i have a lot of friends on facebook in romanian
[15:26] <The0x539> the weekly and daily snapshots won't have it
[15:26] <The0x539> ?
[15:27] <alvin> lordievader: The installer did, yes. I'm now in a chroot. Trying to figure out what is wrong
[15:28] <mircea> this chanell work whit pdgin protocol?
[15:28] <mircea> where you from michel?
[15:28] <MichaelP> America
[15:30] <Guest39818> 123
[15:30] <BluesKaj> 4
[15:30] <Guest39818> 5
[15:31] <Guest39818> cand indentify me :d
[15:31] <Guest39818> [19:29:28] [NickServ] You failed to identify in time for the nickname
[15:48] <Alma_de_poeta> im running kubuntu fron usb-stick  i get notification from low disk space but the stik have 14 more free gb ¿what can i do?
[16:09] <The0x539> huh
[16:09] <The0x539> why does ~/.kde/share/apps/aurorae not exist
[16:09] <lordievader> alvin: Quite strange, not a problem I faced after I installed it in a similar fashion. Do you get the panic of root fs not found?
[16:12] <The0x539> I'm trying to install a theme manually but can't find the directory it belongs in
[16:20] <alvin> lordievader: Yes, it knows the name of the rootfs /dev/mapper/kubuntu-root but can't find it
[16:23] <lordievader> alvin: In the initramfs can you see the lv's?
[16:26] <alvin> lordievader: No, my luks password was never asked.
[16:26] <lordievader> alvin: Cryptsetup is installed I take?
[16:26] <lordievader> I'll boot up my laptop to see how it is configured there.
[16:27] <alvin> I don't know, but the installer was able to activate previously configured luks, so I suppose it was. After all, I did configure crypt in the installer.
[16:28] <alvin> lordievader: That's nice of you, but I'm retrying now, using another method. The default iso, after which I will make the LVM smaller.
[16:30] <lordievader> alvin: What the installer has may be different from what is installed on the system ;)
[16:31] <lordievader> alvin: Hmm, for the Kubuntu I don't find any special kernel lines. I do have crypt_root and dolvm set for my Gentoo install though.
[16:32] <alvin> lordievader: Yes, I noticed those were missing.
[16:32] <The0x539> aha, that might be it
[16:33] <alvin> and the installer should know I want encryption :-) It didn't offer me to install extra packages, aside from tasksel
[16:33] <lordievader> alvin: For Ubuntu they aren't necessary it seems.
[16:33] <lordievader> The kernel options I mean.
[17:07] <applelappala> hello
[17:08] <applelappala> i need kubuntu terminal only.. dont need desktop or GUI i need only terminal.. can anyone who how to get that? is that possilbe?
[17:09] <applelappala> helllooooooo
[17:09] <applelappala> who is the admin here
[17:09] <skinux> Any way to get Ubuntu screenlets to work with Kubuntu??
[17:09] <applelappala> ???
[17:10] <applelappala> where are the helpers?
[17:11] <lordievader> applelappala: Disable lightdm.
[17:12] <lordievader> applelappala: Or add 'text' to the kernel parameters.
[17:12] <tsimpson> or install the server edition
[17:16] <applelappala> how to disable that
[17:17] <applelappala> lightdm or lightgdm?
[17:17] <yofel> applelappala: lightdm, just put 'manual' into /etc/init/lightdm.override
[17:19] <applelappala> oh thank you, then what command sholud i give to reuse GUI>> ?? Does 'startx' works?
[17:19] <applelappala> sorry for poor english! :P
[17:21] <yofel> applelappala: 'service lightdm start' as root if you need it
[17:21] <lordievader> applelappala: Override the start on clause in /etc/init/lightdm.conf
[17:21] <lordievader> Ah, yofel's solution would be better ;)
[17:55] <r_rios> Hey, I just installed Plasma 5 from the neon ppa and I noticed that it starts completely fresh, event though I logged in with my usual account
[17:55] <lordievader> r_rios: It uses a different config dir.
[17:55] <r_rios> ...because neon or because plasma 5?
[17:56] <r_rios> Or because both?
[17:57] <lordievader> r_rios: Ah it was ~/.project-neon5-kde
[17:58] <r_rios> In any case, (how) can I import my old configs?
[17:59] <r_rios> I knew that .kde was deprecated in favor of .config, but I thought there would be some kind of automatic migration of configs or something
[18:00] <lordievader> r_rios: Copy your .config into there ;)
[18:01] <SN3> CPU~Quad core Intel Core i5-4670 CPU (-MCP-) clocked at Min:800.000Mhz Max:1000.000Mhz Kernel~3.13.0-30-generic x86_64 Up~13 days Mem~4821.5/15454.7MB HDD~1764.4GB(1.8% used) Procs~214 Client~Quassel [M] v0.10.0 (dist-575f27e) inxi~2.1.2
[18:55] <lordievader> !info lastmp
[18:56] <lordievader> !info lastfmsubmitd
[21:21] <klin> ку всем
[22:38] <jcgs> hi
[22:39] <jcgs> does anyone here use ktorrent? i clicked the x on the search bar, thinking it would clear the search and show everything, but instead it just hid the search bar and i can only see one torrent
[22:40] <jcgs> does anyone know how i can see my torrents again?
[22:41] <jcgs> ah...found it: Torrents > Filter Torrents
[23:32] <kingbeowolf> can some one make me a vmware image with osx?
[23:54] <MichaelP> is there a qtcurve that works with frameworks 5 plasma 2 ?


  My touchpad really does support two-finger multitouch.
[07:53]  * tvoss watches Linux Action Show
[08:09] <duflu> tvoss: Good idea, till I realized how long it was :)
[08:09] <tvoss> duflu, last third :)
[08:40] <anpok> is there a way to batch surface changes together... i.e. move show hide..
[08:41] <anpok> and have only one notification
[09:14] <duflu> anpok: Not yet. But I did design in the expectation that mir events could arrive in batches. Don't think that's implemented yet
[09:27] <anpok> hm I believe the shell would need an API to batch those changes together.
[09:32] <duflu> anpok: It's probably a good idea for throughput. But (a) We don't yet have evidence that event throughput is a problem; and (b) It's hard to decide how long to batch events. You could easily cause all sorts of lag bugs
[09:32] <duflu> In theory, any delay could be detrimental to client performance
[09:35] <anpok> duflu: ah, no.. thats not what I meant..
[09:35] <duflu> anpok: You mean atomic?
[09:36] <anpok> in the split greeter switch between greeter and session and on boot
[09:36] <anpok> for these swtiches there is now "spinner" showing a loading screen
[09:37] <anpok> and it seems like if u-s-c does spinner->hide() .. check states of surfaces .. greeter or session->show() there seems to be a wrong frame in between..
[09:38] <Saviq> guys, do you know the "Qt queues events when rendering blocked" bug from last week?
[09:38] <Saviq> there's a reply from one of the Qt folks that we might need to argue against (or agree and implement...)
[09:38] <Saviq> https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-37677?focusedCommentId=237009&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-237009
[09:41] <anpok> hum
[09:43] <tvoss> Saviq, I can see the need for synchronizing to swap buffers, but I'm a bit hesitant to provide all apps with information about the screen's state
[09:43] <Saviq> tvoss, well, it's not about the screen's state, but about the app surface's state
[09:45] <Saviq> tvoss, so there's two things... on one hand we're SIGSTOP'ing the apps soon after anyway
[09:45] <Saviq> tvoss, so even if they don't care about that, we're fine
[09:45] <Saviq> (that == the opaque/expose)
[09:46] <anpok> so we would need to send an event when the buffer is not going to be consumed, because it is occuled, and if the screen is turned off
[09:46] <Saviq> on the other, shell is affected already, but that we can control and make sure that it does honor those events
[09:47] <tvoss> Saviq, just to cross-check: the whole app is effectively blocked if swap-buffers does not return, correct?
[09:47] <Saviq> tvoss, yes
[09:47] <anpok> only the gui/qml thread and the renderer I though?
[09:48] <anpok> +t
[09:48] <Saviq> anpok, yes
[09:48] <Saviq> anpok, but everything in QML happens on the GUI thread effectively
[09:48] <tvoss> anpok, which is by default linked to everything else in the process iiuc
[09:48] <anpok> or would that also affect other QThreads created, as they do dispatch events through QApplication?
[09:48] <tvoss> anpok, everything else, too, unless explicitly decoupled
[09:48] <w00t> tvoss: no. if you have a thread created yourself, with no synchronisation, that's not going to magically become blocked
[09:49] <w00t> the gui thread is blocked because it's waiting on the render thread to signal completion, which is actually blocked
[09:49] <tvoss> w00t, sure, fair point. I'm referring to elements being implicitly tied to the gui thread
[09:50] <tvoss> Saviq, so the music player app issue should be fixed with the media-hub iiuc
[09:51] <Saviq> tvoss, sure, but that's just one issue
[09:51] <Saviq> tvoss, shell is also affected by that - no volume buttons, no alarms working
[09:51] <Saviq> and there's probably more we don't know about
[09:51] <anpok> will qt clients that run animations inside their frame bisbehave with 5.2/5.1 if we dont support them with these events?
[09:51] <tvoss> Saviq, yup, but I think that it would be easier for us to solve in the shell than for *all* apps
[09:51] <anpok> i.e. qt games..
[09:52] <tvoss> anpok, they won't be running anyway
[09:52] <Saviq> anpok, yeah, when screen off they're SIGSTOP'ed, so doesn't *really* matter
[09:52] <tvoss> anpok, in this particular scenario, they are sigstop'd pretty soon
[09:52] <tvoss> Saviq, so the only real issue is the shell, correct?
[09:53] <Saviq> tvoss, well, no, the issue is that we're disagreeing with Qt on what we do
[09:54] <Saviq> tvoss, we need to either convince them to not sync (which must not have been happening in 5.0)
[09:54] <tvoss> Saviq, at least making it configurable would be handy
[09:54] <Saviq> or we need to implement the supported behaviour and not block the rendering thread
[09:56] <tvoss> Saviq, yeah, my point was that generating the exposure/obscure event for/in the shell is certainly doable
[09:56] <anpok> but the QtQuick renderer thread has to receive that occlusion event before he goes into the blocking eglSwapBuffers call..
[09:56] <Saviq> tvoss, not sure why we'd special case it, though...
[09:56] <Saviq> anpok, there can't be no blocking eglSwapBuffers call, that's the thing
[09:56] <anpok> and that sounds like an easry race condition to run into
[09:57] <anpok> ok - a failing eglSwapBuffers then?
[09:57] <Saviq> or an ignored one...
[09:58] <duflu> Remember anything that's not a client or a nested server is "bling". To sync that perfectly to compositing you have to render it in the compositor (i.e. don't use Surfaces)
[09:58] <duflu> See the demo-shell decorations :)
[09:59] <Saviq> I'm not sure on what would be the right / correct thing to do here, but obviously what they're saying is that a blocking eglSwapBuffers call is not supported
[09:59] <Saviq> at least while the surface is allowed to render, I'd say
[09:59] <Saviq> but yeah ↑ that'd be racy
[10:01] <duflu> SwapBuffers is designed to (and must) work asynchronously behind the scenes. If you make it synchronous like a glFinish() then performance is unacceptable
[10:06] <tvoss> Saviq, hmmm, agreed, it's difficult to say, but using exposure events to encode possible reasons why a call to swap buffers might block/return an error
[10:06] <tvoss> does not seem to be right to me
[10:06] <Saviq> tvoss, yeah, it seems they're working under the assumption that swap buffers will always work
[10:07] <duflu> tvoss, Saviq: eglSwapBuffers always blocks once you've filled the queue. That's how to throttle clients to the refresh rate :)
[10:07] <Saviq> duflu, yeah, sure, but that's a "special case"
[10:07] <duflu> ... which happens "all the time"
[10:07] <Saviq> duflu, in our case we're telling the app effectively that the queue is filled when screen is off
[10:08] <tvoss> Saviq, which actually is quite sensible :)
[10:08]  * duflu goes away to try and finish his work for the evening
[10:08] <Saviq> tvoss, not necessarily
[10:08] <Saviq> tvoss, not if the assumption from Qt is that the app stops when that happens
[10:09] <Saviq> unless we first "tell it" that there's not going to be more swaps possible (with expose/occlude)
[10:09] <Saviq> but that's dangerous
[10:09] <tvoss> Saviq, it is, and kind of goes against the defined of eglSwapBuffers
[10:09] <tvoss> +behavior
[10:09] <Saviq> indeed
[10:10] <tvoss> Saviq, so Qt always assumes the "good" path when calling eglSwapBuffers unless otherwise told
[10:10] <tvoss> Saviq, races and timings aside, this sounds fragile.
[10:11] <Saviq> tvoss, well, not if what it does is just wait for stuff to settle again, and process everything when swapping is possible again
[10:11] <Saviq> tvoss, especially when you consider the swapping to only not return when buffer is filled, and indeed you don't want to do unnecessary work until you can swap again
[10:11] <tvoss> Saviq, what do you mean with "wait for stuff to settle again"?
[10:12] <tvoss> Saviq, the definition of "unneccessary" becomes quite broad though, if you block the overall event processing on the rendering
[10:12] <Saviq> tvoss, well, if you're a GUI app, and are expecting to be able to draw
[10:13] <Saviq> tvoss, your GUI thread blocking on you not being able to draw...
[10:13] <Saviq> makes sense to me
[10:13] <Saviq> if you're told that you won't be able to draw (expose/occlude), that's another matter
[10:14] <tvoss> Saviq, hmmm, I think both approaches are valid, i.e., block and not block, where block could be a safe default
[10:28] <Saviq> tvoss, sure, we need to come up with a solution, though ;)
[10:29] <Saviq> tvoss, as this is the last known 5.2 issue that we need to fix
[10:33] <Saviq> tvoss, or well, we at least need guidance on whether we want to argue with Qt folk or not
[10:39] <tvoss> Saviq, how about proposing making the blocking optional to the qt folks
[10:40] <Saviq> tvoss, TBH I'm not convinced, so I wouldn't like to argue that point :)
[10:41] <tvoss> Saviq, and I'm likewise not convinced that switching off the screen equates to an obscure event
[10:41] <Saviq> tvoss, well, in our case it does, as we're unfocusing the app / putting the lock screen on
[10:42] <Saviq> tvoss, btw, definition of the expose event http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/qwindow.html#exposeEvent
[10:43] <Saviq> tvoss, I'd say that that makes sense, as exposed is a broader event than obscured
[10:43] <tvoss> Saviq, okay, and we would be required to send a resize event?
[10:43] <Saviq> tvoss, not sure, why?
[10:43] <tvoss> Saviq, doc says so
[10:43] <Saviq> tvoss, first time
[10:43] <tvoss> Saviq, hmmm ...
[10:43] <Saviq> tvoss, I'd say we're actually sending exposeEvent already
[10:43] <Saviq> tvoss, otherwise we'd never draw
[10:44] <Saviq> or qt wouldn't
[10:44] <Saviq> or maybe we don't, nothing in qtubuntu apparently
[10:45] <tvoss> Saviq, it's still racy to send the expose event
[10:45] <Saviq> tvoss, not if we don't block swap buffers subsequently
[10:46] <Saviq> tvoss, so that's the real, architectural, question - should we be ever blocking swap buffers
[10:46] <Saviq> Qt seems to think we should not
[10:47] <Saviq> not if we want the GUI thread to run
[10:47] <Saviq> which we want, at least for the shell
[10:47] <tvoss> Saviq, we should, and we have to ... it's absolutely normal behavior to throttle clients with that
[10:48] <Saviq> tvoss, _throttle_
[10:48] <Saviq> tvoss, we don't need to throttle if we don't want them to render at all
[10:49] <Saviq> and we're SIGSTOP'ing them anyway
[10:49] <Saviq> tvoss, don't get me wrong, I'm the devil's advocate here
[10:49] <Saviq> tvoss, and that's why I don't want to argue with Qt folk, 'cause it's not me that made (makes) that decision
[10:49] <tvoss> Saviq, sure, that's fine. I still think that an assumption on eglSwapBuffers not blocking is fragile
[10:50] <Saviq> tvoss, and that's what you need to argue with them on :)
[10:51] <tvoss> Saviq, I guess you are putting the focus on *you* here ;)
[10:52] <Saviq> tvoss, I just don't know enough about this
[10:52] <Saviq> tvoss, and it's kind of an architectural question
[10:52] <tvoss> Saviq, sure, no problem. Just created an account in Jira
[10:52] <Saviq> and then... you're the architect! :D
[10:52] <tvoss> Saviq, yup. According to http://www.khronos.org/registry/egl/sdk/docs/man/xhtml/eglSwapBuffers.html
[10:53] <tvoss> Saviq,  a way of returning early would be to return false and raise EGL_CONTEXT_LOST
[10:53] <tvoss> Saviq, which is really expensive
[10:54] <Saviq> tvoss, sounds so, yeah
[11:22] <tvoss> Saviq, replied
[11:24] <Saviq> tvoss, thanks
[12:02] <Saviq> tvoss, btw, I think I found the commit https://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qtdeclarative/commit/a7f61f7
[12:03]  * Saviq tries to see if reverting that helps for the time being
[12:24] <Saviq> tvoss, FYI: Gunnar replied
[12:31] <tvoss> Saviq, thanks
[12:51] <tvoss> Saviq, is qt-project the qt channel I should go to?
[12:51] <Saviq> tvoss, #qt-labs
[12:51] <tvoss> Saviq, thanks
[12:51] <Saviq> tvoss, or #qt-quick
[12:52] <Saviq> tvoss, maybe the latter, as this seems to be a qml-specific thing
[14:25] <Saviq> tvoss, FYI it's actually https://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qtdeclarative/commit/ebe8b9408cfcd953fae80514aa67e49221541bed that introduces the syncing, I doubt we can revert that with any certainty that it's gonna work
[14:25] <Saviq> it does _almost_ apply -R, but I'd really rather not...
[15:19] <tvoss> Saviq, that's indeed looking too complicated to just revert it
[15:59] <mterry> racarr, poke!  I figure you might be starting your day soon.  I was curious if that PPA helped with testing the "screen turns back on" bug.  I tested myself with your runServerWithGreeterClient branches to see if they helped, but they didn't.  Not sure why this problem cropped up again (I thought it was already solved)
[16:08] <kgunn> tvoss: Saviq ...so what's preventing us from using the expose event? seems like that is the given answer ?
[16:08] <tvoss> kgunn, we certainly can, but it's still racy
[16:08] <kgunn> tvoss: agreed...i think its a _terrible_ idea
[16:08] <kgunn> in general
[16:09] <kgunn> but just living with the "make it happy" moment
[16:09] <kgunn> :)
[16:09] <tvoss> kgunn, specifically when dealing with applications, we would need to wait for the apps to acknowledge the event before we can stall the pipeline
[16:09] <kgunn> yeah...long halting sequence
[16:09] <greyback> alf__: hey, Mir fails to start on me frequently with this error: std::exception::what: Error opening DRM device
[16:09] <greyback> -22, "Unknown error -22"
[16:10] <tvoss> kgunn, I think we can leverage the expose event in the shell easier, though
[16:10] <greyback> alf__: it's a nouveau machine, if that's any help/hindrance
[16:10] <tvoss> kgunn, and for apps: the music hub will solve the immediate issue of missing EOS
[16:10] <alf__> greyback: hmm, I think we have a bug for this, let me see
[16:11] <kgunn> tvoss: and iiuc, at the base qwindowsysinterface class gives you some guarantees you handling...so no misbehaved apps
[16:11] <tvoss> kgunn, got difficulties parsing that sentence
[16:11] <tvoss> :)
[16:12] <kgunn> tvoss: just meaning @dealing with applications/waiting for ack's
[16:12] <kgunn> tvoss: i'm understanding from his response that there's a guarantee for handlling
[16:12] <tvoss> kgunn, mir would have to deal with that
[16:13] <tvoss> kgunn, you have to synchronize that across process boundaries
[16:13] <kgunn> tvoss: right...but from the app side too
[16:13] <tvoss> kgunn, well, on the app side it's simple
[16:13] <tvoss> kgunn, what is really challenging is getting that straight over process boundaries
[16:13] <tvoss> suddenly, we would need timeouts and stuff
[16:14] <kgunn> tvoss: sure...and it doesn't solve  the potential race you highlighted to them
[16:19] <alf__> greyback: Hmm, I can't find a bug for this exactly (error opening DRM device + error 22 (EINVAL)), but I do remember people were discussing some issues with nouveau
[16:19] <greyback> alf__: ok, I'll log a bug anyway
[16:19] <alf__> greyback: "fails to start frequently", which I guess means sometimes works?
[16:19] <greyback> alf__: yeah, seems to
[16:20] <greyback> alf__: so I do a fresh boot, "sudo stop lightdm" and try mir_demo_server_shell
[16:21] <greyback> alf__: I'm not missing anything obvious, am I?
[16:22] <alf__> greyback: ok, btw you don't need to stop lightdm, you can start mir in e.g. VT1 (although if you get a strange crash you may not be able to vt away in some cases), so keep an ssh connection ready
[16:22] <alf__> greyback: what happens if you don't stop lightdm, does it help?
[16:23] <alf__> greyback: ok, do you run sudo mir_demo_server_shell?
[16:23] <alf__> greyback: s/ok/oh/
[16:23] <greyback> alf__: just rebooting to try without stopping lightdm, gimme a min. Yep always sudo
[16:24] <alf__> greyback: ok, thanks
[16:27] <greyback> alf__: "address already in use" - aha USC is running as mir server....
[16:28]  * greyback digs into help file to find right switch to use nesting
[16:31] <alf__> greyback: hmm, so you are running USC... I guess in that case you should stop lightdm, but I wonder if doing so properly stops USC.
[16:36] <greyback> alf__: if I stop lightdm, USC still running. Killing bad
[16:37] <alf__> greyback: killing bad, for it or for your session? :)
[16:37] <greyback>  alf__ if I kill, I get the DRM error
[16:37] <greyback> and general life rule
[16:38] <alf__> greyback: if you leave it running can you run the demo server normally?
[16:40] <greyback> alf__: nested mode should work with this, right: sudo mir_demo_server_shell --host-socket /tmp/mir_socket -f /tmp/another_mir_socket
[16:42] <alf__> greyback: right, although note that nested servers live inside the context of the host server, so only visible in the host server's VT
[16:43] <greyback> alf__: I didn't know that
[16:43] <greyback> makes sense tho
[16:43] <alf__> greyback: they work by using a surface the same way a normal application does
[16:44] <alf__> greyback: but that (host) mir surface is the framebuffer for all apps connecting to the nested server
[16:44] <greyback> alf__: gotcha
[16:45] <alf__> greyback: but in any case, stopping USC and starting a demo server should work. In which VT are you trying to start the demo server?
[16:47] <greyback> alf__: it is working as nested anyway
[16:47] <greyback> alf__: so seems killing lightdm screws up the DRM state
[16:48] <greyback> I want to find a clean way to stop USC
[16:57] <greyback> mterry where are you...
[16:58] <kgunn> greyback:  i think mterry has the worst wifi ever
[16:59] <greyback> will resort to mail
[17:09] <greyback> alf__: I suspect that USC is hanging on shutdown, and so not cleaning up the DRM state. Have asked mterry about it, will see what he says
[17:11] <alf__> greyback: ok, ensure it's getting stopped normally (not -9)
[17:12] <greyback> alf__: right, it's not. I gets a SIGTERM, but just sits there. So teardown isn't happening for some reason