[02:18] <nemo> mcphail: shoot. It's been like a month and a half. hard for me to remember what was changed
[02:18] <nemo> mcphail: you didn't save a diff?
[02:19] <nemo> mcphail: I seem to remember adjusting cmake as well as the config.inc...
[03:26] <mcphail> nemo: I have a snapshot of the chroot, but it is 180 miles away on a different machine. I won't be able to access it until the end of next week
[07:15] <davidcalle> Morning all
[07:41] <dholbach> good morning
[08:13] <karni> alecu: was the thumbnailer bug tracked someone else than libqtelegram as well?
[08:13] <karni> alecu: I mean the thing where it was dropped and Tg broke in rc-proposed
[09:29] <alecu> Hi karni, I'm not working today, but let's ask xavi...
[09:29] <alecu> Oh, and he's not working today either
[09:29] <karni> alecu: ok, no problem, thanks buddy
[09:29] <karni> alecu: have a good day
[09:29] <alecu> Perhaps michi knows?
[09:30] <karni> alecu: noted, but no problem, just needed a refernce
[09:30] <karni> alecu: enjoy your day off
[11:21] <mcphail> jhodapp: meant to get back to you with the errors in building qtubuntu-media on vivid: http://paste.ubuntu.com/12078614/
[11:21] <mcphail> (vivid+overlay)
[11:22] <mcphail> Looks as if it needs a package from wily to build
[12:11] <dpm> popey, I've updated the LO viewer blueprint with Stefano's feedback. I've also added your work items for the armhf LO build so that everyone is on the same page: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docviewer-app/+spec/libreoffice-docviewer-integration
[12:13] <popey> thanks dpm
[12:53] <jhodapp> mcphail, what channel did you use? It looks like you're on wily
[12:53] <jhodapp> mcphail, I just built qtubuntu-media on vivid yesterday from a clean image, so something is wrong
[13:46] <mcphail> jhodapp: This is on ubuntu-touch/rc-proposed/bq-aquaris.en, using the source from "bzr branch lp:qtubuntu-media"
[13:46] <jhodapp> mcphail, use lp:qtubuntu-media/stable
[13:46] <mcphail> jhodapp: ok, will try that one. Cheers
[13:47] <jhodapp> np
[13:50] <mcphail> jhodapp: that's giving me the same problem. What do you get with "apt-cache policy libqtubuntu-media-signals-dev"?
[13:52] <jhodapp> mcphail, 0.3+15.04.20141104-0ubuntu1
[13:53] <nik90> zsombi_, t1mp: Hi :),  I noticed a small bug with the new page headers in UC 1.3, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-ui-toolkit/+bug/1484736.
[13:53] <mcphail> jhodapp: so that doesn't meet the minimum build-deps either
[13:54] <jhodapp> mcphail, are you trying to create a package atm?
[13:54] <jhodapp> or just make; make install
[13:55] <mcphail> jhodapp: yes, tried both. See my paste above. Neither work. The make aborts, and the error looks as if it comes from the wrong libqtubuntu-media-signals-dev
[13:55] <mcphail> ../../../src/aal/aalmediaplayerservice.cpp:191:38: error: ‘class SharedSignal’ has no member named ‘sinkReset’
[13:56] <jhodapp> mcphail, yeah, so the issue is you caught that in the middle of syncing vivid up to the latest code
[13:56] <jhodapp> mcphail, so what I recommend is looking back at the qtubuntu-media log to the point at which the version I gave you was released
[13:57] <mcphail> ok
[14:01] <t1mp> nik90: thanks for reporting
[14:01] <t1mp> yeah the page (and thus header contents) is already switched before the animate out is done
[14:01] <t1mp> I need to think how to come up with a better solution
[14:02] <nik90> t1mp: it affects clock app since we don't use a header in the main page. that's how i noticed.
[14:02] <nik90> hopefully the sample app will help :)
[14:04] <davidcalle> dholbach, https://bugs.launchpad.net/developer-ubuntu-com/+bug/1443837 is now invalid, right?
[14:05] <dholbach> davidcalle, yep, looks like it
[14:08] <t1mp> zsombi_: we were talking about moving the header inside the page.. ^this bug relates to that too.
[14:08] <zsombi_> t1mp: so maybe it woudl be the time then to do that?
[14:09] <t1mp> putting the header in the page can make some issues easier to solve, but gives new complications for others If you still want to animate the header in/out you  need to know if the previous page had a visible header
[14:09] <t1mp> zsombi_: when is the freeze for 1.3?
[14:10] <t1mp> zsombi_: also in the AdaptivePageLayout we need to sync the header heights between the pages
[14:11] <dholbach> davidcalle, do you know where https://developer.ubuntu.com/assets/sites/ubuntu/latest/u/js/scratch.js is from? (bug 1454520)
[14:11] <t1mp> so we need some communications between the header  and its surroundings (previous/next page, other pages that are open)
[14:12] <zsombi_> t1mp: we can think of the animations once we get a proper direction on that.
[14:12] <zsombi_> t1mp: if we do it togehther with the page, then the Page layouts would do the job, not the page itself
[14:12] <t1mp> zsombi_: I didn't mean the animation inside the header, but the current animation we have to show/hide the header (for pages without a header)
[14:12] <t1mp> hmm
[14:12] <t1mp> nik90: do you have designs for the clock app on desktop/tablet?
[14:13] <t1mp> the APL doesn't currently support a page with the header hidden
[14:13] <zsombi_> t1mp: the current animation is not complete.... I mean design did not gave us the final verdict on anything...
[14:13] <nik90> t1mp: no we don't have designs for desktop/tablet yet, although I heard it was being worked on.
[14:13] <zsombi_> t1mp: and I think we will have an animation which does the page and header together and in a completely different way we had so far
[14:14] <davidcalle> dholbach, I don't, I think it's part of the "guidelines" framework used by the web team (eg. it's also used here : https://assets.ubuntu.com/sites/ubuntu/latest/u/js/scratch.js)
[14:15] <t1mp> zsombi_: if we simply expose a property Item header in the Page,that makes it easy for the APL to get the implicitHeight of each header, and to set all the heights to the minimum implicitHeight
[14:15] <dholbach> davidcalle, ok... I pinged the web team
[14:16] <t1mp> zsombi_: I don't know if the property PageHeadConfiguration head then still makes sense, because you have access to the actual header item
[14:17] <zsombi_> t1mp: if we move the Header inti Page, the whole PageHeadConfiguration becomes obsolete. We can have a header property which if set, it will be shown.
[14:17] <zsombi_> t1mp: then teh Header will be a separate component you can configure straight without any fancy crap
[14:17] <t1mp> zsombi_: header property would be an Item (or subclass like Header)
[14:18] <t1mp> ah pages without a header can set it to null
[14:18] <zsombi_> t1mp: header property would be Header not an Item
[14:18] <zsombi_> exactly!
[14:18] <zsombi_> t1mp: it sis much more elegant than we have it now
[14:18] <zsombi_> is
[14:21] <t1mp> well
[14:21] <t1mp> note that what we have now is more abstract
[14:22] <t1mp> if we attach the header to the Page we couldn't switch back to a toolbar without having the app developers make all the changes
[14:23] <t1mp> so if something fundamental like that changes again all the apps need to be updated
[14:24] <t1mp> yeah I'll try to add the header to the Page
[14:24] <t1mp> for next week I already have some other stuff planned though
[14:24] <t1mp> hmm
[14:25] <t1mp> optimizing the MainView probably gets easier after the header goes out
[14:28] <nik90> zsombi_: hey, with image #95, I am noticing that the delete button normally shown in the leading edge is barely clickable. Not sure why...The width is a bit small compared to renatu's implementation of swipe-delete & also I have to try really hard to press it .. it started with image #94,95...with clock app from trunk.
[14:28] <nik90> I managed to click it only 2 out of 10 times..and I am not exaggerating :P
[14:29] <zsombi_> nik90: are you using 1.2 or 1.3?
[14:29] <nik90> zsombi_: 1.2
[14:29] <zsombi_> nik90: I think the width has been now set to a fixed size, maybe we have to increase that size...
[14:30] <zsombi_> nik90: so far it was teh same width ahs height, due you filed a bug, we fixed it to a certain width, seems that is not enoyugh
[14:30] <nik90> zsombi_: I hope its just the width issue, because when i click the delete button, it selects the entire listitem instead of executing the action.
[14:31] <zsombi_> nik90: I guess you're tapping...
[14:32] <nik90> well I tried tapping, pressing and long-press.. and sometimes it just closes the swipe-delete gesture or selects the entire listitem
[14:57] <dholbach> davidcalle, JFYI I'm starting the process of bug 1470715 with a branch we can use as a team
[14:57] <davidcalle> dholbach, oh nice! :D
[14:57] <dholbach> it's going to be a bit of work :)
[14:57] <davidcalle> I can imagine, yes ;-)
[15:31] <dholbach> jdstrand, thanks for fixing c-r-t
[15:31] <dholbach> (and sorry for not noticing O:-/)
[15:50] <jdstrand> np
[17:40] <jdstrand> popey: fyi, new permy upload: "0.9 apparmor policy is unchanged from 0.8"
[17:40] <jdstrand> popey: what is our policy for quarantine?
[17:41] <jdstrand> popey: I went through the erle snaps today and they weren't updated since my last review (I left a comment saying as much)
[18:26] <popey> jdstrand: i think you need to request manual review for permy?
[18:26] <jdstrand> oh right
[18:26] <jdstrand> popey: done
[18:27] <popey> jdstrand: approved
[18:28] <jdstrand> thanks :)
[18:28] <popey> np


[04:43] <Febin> Hi
[04:47] <guiverc> Febin, if you have a Lubuntu support question, please just ask it (try & keep to a single line, and be patient waiting for reply, people answer when they can).  Discussion belongs in #lubuntu-offtopic but G'day
[22:42] <saml> in 20.04, mouse cursor does not change when launching apps
[22:42] <saml> how do I diagnose this issue?
[22:43] <saml> mouse cursor theme selection works. I see different cursor color/theme gets applied. But mouse cursor just doesn't change to hourglass/busy/spinning when logging in/launching an app...


[04:14] <pitti> Good morning
[05:23] <larsu> morning!
[07:03] <pitti> hey larsu
[07:05] <larsu> hi pitti! Wie war dein Wochenende?
[07:06] <didrocks> hey larsu!
[07:06] <pitti> larsu: quite nice, thanks! I did some gardening, had a nice biking round, and (less nice) spent my Sunday evening with plumbing (congested pipes in the kitchen)
[07:06] <pitti> larsu: und Deins?
[07:06] <larsu> bonjour didrocks!!
[07:07] <didrocks> pitti: congested pipes, doesn't sound fun :/
[07:08] <larsu> pitti: uh oh, hope the kitchen is usable again ;) My girlfriend's mom was in town. Had some nice walks in Berlin's parks, some (slight) sightseeing and some theatre
[08:00] <seb128> good morning desktopers!
[08:00] <darkxst> hey seb128
[08:01] <mvo> hey seb128
[08:03] <darkxst> seb128, would you be open to backporting 3.12 power plugin/panel for u-s-d/u-c-c?
[08:04] <darkxst> (for upower transition)
[08:04] <Laney> morning
[08:04] <seb128> hey darkxst mvo Laney
[08:04] <seb128> darkxst, did you get that upower transition approved by the r-t?
[08:04] <larsu> hi $PEOPLE_SEB128_JUST_MENTIONED
[08:04] <Laney> good weekends?
[08:05] <seb128> somebody on #debian-gnome mentioned some days ago that trunk had another ABI change
[08:05] <seb128> we don't want to have to do 2 transitions if that's the case
[08:05] <seb128> we should wait for the ABI to stabilize
[08:05] <seb128> the Debian guys were mentioning maybe reverting the GNOME changes to use the old upower for the coming Debian stable
[08:05] <darkxst> seb128, since when do need r-t approval this early in the cycle?
[08:06] <seb128> that sort of transition impact on all flavors
[08:06] <ochosi> morning everyone! i'm sorry if this isn't the right channel, but i'm a bit lost with this. i found a (few) bugs in xdg-screensaver - any idea who i could talk to?
[08:06] <darkxst> seb128, g-s-d is a complete mess, they did major refactoring of the power plugin, which is all mixed up with the api changes
[08:06] <seb128> including touch
[08:07] <seb128> ochosi, we don't have anyone looking at xdg-utils bugs afaik, I'm happy to sponsor patches though
[08:07] <ochosi> seb128: ok, thanks, that's good to know!
[08:10] <didrocks> hey Laney, darkxst, ochosi
[08:10] <darkxst> hey didrocks
[08:10] <didrocks> and mvo :)
[08:10] <mvo> hey didrocks!
[08:11] <ochosi> seb128: first of all, it carries a useless patch that only duplicates things. that one should simply be dropped from my pov: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/trusty/xdg-utils/trusty/view/head:/debian/patches/xserver-blanking.diff
[08:11] <darkxst> seb128, the api changes are by themselves not that bad, g-s-d is a mess due to the included re-factoring
[08:12] <darkxst> most other components only have fairly simple patches
[08:12] <seb128> darkxst, looking at Debian that transition doesn't seem to be that easy
[08:12] <seb128> but anyway, it seems you guys are doing good job on it, I see you listed components, patches, etc
[08:12] <seb128> so it should be fine
[08:13] <seb128> but it impacts on several flavors, so it would be worth communicating about it on ubuntu-devel@
[08:13] <Laney> did you check the d-bus api?
[08:14] <darkxst> Laney, as best I can while codesearch is broken
[08:14] <Laney> mmm
[08:17] <pitti> hey Laney
[08:17] <pitti> bonjour seb128 !
[08:17] <Laney> hey pitti
[08:17] <Laney> I'd have merged a system-settings branch for you btw ;-)
[08:17] <seb128> pitti, salut! ça va bien ?
[08:17] <Laney> hwo's it going?
[08:17] <pitti> seb128: félicitations pour le match de football gagné hier :)
[08:17] <pitti> seb128: oui, merci
[08:17] <pitti> Laney: heh, I grabbed another guinea pig for the time being :)
[08:26] <darkxst> Laney, database still seems to be incomplete
[08:27] <Laney> I never fixed it :(
[08:27] <darkxst> obviously!
[08:27] <seb128> pitti, merci ! bonne chance pour le match ce soir
[08:30]  * darkxst wonders what is going on in debian land if they thing gjs transition is harder than upower!
[08:31] <Laney> speaking of transitions
[08:31]  * Laney has prepared evo 3.12
[08:31] <Laney> (H)
[08:38] <Laney> darkxst: sorry, I'll look at it soon hopefully
[08:38] <Laney> the code is written in go which I don't know so it's not a very appealing task
[08:51] <seb128> Laney, saw bug #1330033 ?
[08:51] <Laney> nein
[08:53] <ochosi> seb128: i hope you're ok with me setting you as a reviewer for my xdg-utils MR
[08:54] <Laney> looks new in 2.41
[08:56] <seb128> ochosi, that's fine yes, seems like you targeted the wrong Vcs though (lp:xdg-utils)
[08:56] <seb128> ochosi, is that change upstream btw?
[08:56] <pitti> seb128: merci :)
[08:57] <ochosi> seb128: it's not yet, but i will propose it there too. thing is, this is already affecting us in trusty, so it'd be nice to get it into ubuntu asap (and we're already carrying a - partly useless - delta with upstream)
[08:57] <ochosi> seb128: thing is, xdg-utils isn't even *that actively* maintained upstream...
[08:58] <seb128> ochosi, yeah, it's fine to not have changes in upstream vcs first, but we like to have a bug report reference at least, so we ensure it's reported there/might get included later
[08:58] <seb128> ochosi, if we don't do that, things often don't get upstreamed later and we create a delta and extra work for us
[08:59] <ochosi> seb128: ok, will look into doing that right now, shall i add a link in a comment to the MR?
[08:59] <seb128> ochosi, that would be nice, thanks
[08:59] <seb128> or ideally add it to the patch header, but I can do that for you when I upload
[09:04] <seb128> pitti, one problem with the "upload and commit to trunk" is that your might create issues for things already built and being tested in a silo
[09:05] <pitti> seb128: ah, right
[09:05] <seb128> like they are going to hit the issue that the revision is missing when they try to publish
[09:05] <pitti> meh, not having trunk is really maddening
[09:05] <pitti> seb128: ok, I'll just continue with dialer-app then and let the project maintainers do that update themselves
[09:06] <pitti> it wasn't for lack of trying on my side, at least :)
[09:06] <Laney> they'll just have to merge and rebuild
[09:06] <Laney> but yes :/
[09:06] <seb128> pitti, you can easily check is a component is a silo using the CI bot with "where <source>"
[09:06] <seb128> is in a silo*
[09:07] <seb128> pitti, btw should we start include those changes or should we wait?
[09:07] <seb128> like for settings we can get that in the next landing
[09:07] <pitti> seb128: it's fine to include them, as long as you don't mind having translations dropped for a few days
[09:07] <seb128> k
[09:24] <pitti> seb128: btw, I uploaded a fixed usb-creator for bug 1294877 (the thing you poked me about last week); but it's still not working well, I also sometimes get a failure about "failed to install boot loader"
[09:24] <pitti> usb-creator is in a rather sorry state :/
[09:25] <seb128> pitti, yeah, xnox needs to look at it
[09:25] <seb128> pitti, thanks for looking at it!
[09:27] <ochosi> seb128: done. added as a comment as i wasn't sure how/where to do that with the patch header
[09:27] <ochosi> seb128: i'll be looking at what you do with it though and try to learn from it
[09:28] <seb128> ochosi, ok, I just usually add some comment lines on top of the .patch
[09:28] <seb128> like
[09:28] <seb128> # Description: support xfce better
[09:28] <ochosi> ah
[09:28] <seb128> # Upstream: <url<
[09:28] <ochosi> right
[09:33] <ochosi> there's also that patch that could be dropped, i presume you need a MR for that too?
[09:33] <ochosi> s/could/should/
[09:34] <seb128> ochosi, which one? no need, I can have a look
[09:34] <ochosi> this one: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/utopic/xdg-utils/utopic/view/head:/debian/patches/xserver-blanking.diff
[09:34] <ochosi> it just duplicates code
[09:35] <ochosi> this is the bugreport for it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xdg-utils/+bug/1330386
[09:35] <seb128> you mean it was included upstream and not dropped from our patch serie?
[09:35] <ochosi> that'
[09:35] <ochosi> s the only explanation i could find
[09:35] <seb128> ok, thanks
[09:35] <ochosi> otherwise it makes no sense
[09:35] <seb128> let me look
[09:36] <ochosi> (fwiw, i've also removed that patch locally and tested things without it. as it's all bash-scripts it's fairly easy to test)
[09:37] <seb128> ochosi, yeah, http://cgit.freedesktop.org/xdg/xdg-utils/commit/scripts/xdg-screensaver.in?id=c9551d250722081cbf7d6611f417bc597765e5c9
[09:38] <ochosi> righty
[09:38] <ochosi> there you go
[09:38] <ochosi> sry, i guess i could've dug that up myself when doing the bugreport...
[09:38] <seb128> no worry
[09:38] <seb128> thanks for pointing it out ;-)
[09:38] <ochosi> np ;)
[09:39] <pitti> seb128: bug 1296275> argh, I'm a moron
[09:39] <seb128> pitti, did you include the wrong change?
[09:39] <pitti> ACTION="add"
[09:39] <pitti> that wanted to be ==
[09:39] <pitti> and actually, it's redundant
[09:39] <ochosi> seb128: one more question though, if i introduce a new feature to xdg-screensaver (i.e. restoring the correct value of xset), could we handle this the same way? (MR assigned to you, upstream bugreport+patch)
[09:40] <ochosi> (actually could be configured bugfix)
[09:40] <seb128> ochosi, yes
[09:40] <ochosi> s/configured/considered/
[09:40] <ochosi> weird mistype...
[09:40] <ochosi> seb128: ok thanks a bunch! i guess we need to file for SRU to get this into trusty?
[09:41] <seb128> ochosi, yes, you can use the existing bugs, you just need impact/test case/regression potential info on those
[09:42] <ochosi> seb128: ok, will look into that later today or whenever the changes have been pushed. thanks again!
[09:42] <seb128> ochosi, yw!
[11:02] <Sweet5hark> ricotz: FWIW https://launchpad.net/~bjoern-michaelsen/+archive/libreoffice-staging-main has 4.2.5~rc2 -- I havent smoketested it to install clean though ...
[11:12] <Sweet5hark> ricotz: looking good, copied
[11:16] <seb128> grrr
[11:16] <seb128> why is the ubuntu desktop next iso still stopping on the lightdm screen asking for an username
[11:17] <seb128> the lightdm log states it's try to log user "(null)"!
[11:17]  * seb128 debugs
[11:18] <Laney> :(
[11:18] <ogra_> probably uses "phablet" anywhere hardcoded ?
[11:20] <seb128> ogra_, no, we are using unity-greeter like desktop
[11:24] <ogra_> seb128, well, that wouldnt help if the session wrapper has the homedir/user hardcoded
[11:25] <seb128> ogra_, well, the log has user "(null)" that seems wrong in any case
[11:25] <darkxst> seb128, can you guys fork gnome-desktop ;)
[11:25] <seb128> darkxst, no
[11:25] <ogra_> true
[11:26] <darkxst> seb128, yes, its much easier than the alternatives!
[11:26] <seb128> darkxst, did Laney said, earlier in the cycle, that he was wanting to help you land this one?
[11:26] <darkxst> seb128, no laney hasn't mentioned that to me
[11:27] <seb128> lying
[11:27] <darkxst> whos lying?
[11:27] <seb128> you
[11:27] <seb128> darkxst, http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/28/%23ubuntu-desktop.html#t11:23
[11:27] <seb128> you were part of that discussion
[11:27] <seb128> that was a reply to you
[11:28] <seb128> it's good that we have logs ;-)
[11:29] <darkxst> seb128, yes, even bet that you can just dig them up that quick ;)
[11:29] <darkxst> ^better
[11:29] <seb128> lol
[11:29] <seb128> well, I just had to grep for gnome-desktop mentions in that channel and grep for Laney on the results
[11:30] <darkxst> but still, I think it probably easier to fork it, libunity-desktop
[11:30] <darkxst> only for u-s-d and u-c-c
[11:31] <darkxst> everything else likes the apps, that shouldn;t even be using it... can continue on using the real library
[11:31] <seb128> what happens then e.g eog or cheese or nautilus or ...
[11:31] <seb128> +to
[11:32] <darkxst> seb128, they will be linked to one or the other
[11:32] <darkxst> doesnt matter too much which
[11:32] <seb128> well, those libraries are going to have common symbols?
[11:33] <seb128> is that likely to create conflicts?
[11:33] <darkxst> seb128, only if someone trys to link against both, (which is a really bad idea anyway)
[11:34] <seb128> right, seems there is no libs in the rdepends list
[11:34] <seb128> Laney, do you have an opinion on that?
[11:35] <darkxst> I think mostly the apps are using the thumbnailers, which upstream agreed could probably be moved into gtk, however I havent had time to chase that one up
[11:35] <Laney> what's the problem with doing the normal update?
[11:35] <darkxst> its also likely that some apps, nautilus maybe, are using deprecated modules
[11:36] <darkxst> Laney, all XRANR stuff was moved into mutter
[11:36] <darkxst> in fact anything X related was moved out
[11:37] <darkxst> I did rip out the code from mutter and make a standalone daemon, last cycle and that would still work
[11:37] <darkxst> but... things are just going to keep diverging
[11:43] <Laney> what uses the X stuff on our side?
[11:43] <Laney> I think splitting it out is okay
[11:43] <darkxst> Laney, the X stuff is pretty limited to u-s-d/u-c-c
[11:44] <darkxst> the apps just use stuff, that was never really intended to be in gnome-desktop
[11:44] <darkxst> but is there
[11:44] <Laney> would be happy to try the split first
[11:44] <Laney> if it's removed then it won't be changing
[11:45] <seb128> like copy that code in u-s-d/u-c-c?
[11:45] <Laney> darkxst already made a daemon for it
[11:45] <Laney> not sure what source it lives in
[11:45] <seb128> new source
[11:45] <Laney> seems okay
[11:45] <Laney> or a binary in one of those
[11:45] <Laney> doesn't matter to me
[11:45] <seb128> well, it's new code/js
[11:45]  * darkxst ripped the code from mutter and put in a daemon
[11:45] <seb128> I'm not even sure we want gjs on our iso
[11:46] <Laney> not a fork of the old stuff?
[11:46] <darkxst> seb128, no gjs involved
[11:46] <seb128> darkxst, oh, that part is only C?
[11:46] <darkxst> seb128, yes
[11:46] <seb128> Laney, no, a fork of the new gnome-shell code
[11:46] <seb128> with talking over dbus
[11:46]  * Laney nod
[11:46] <seb128> it has potential for bugs
[11:46] <seb128> but I guess we can try it out
[11:47] <seb128> and if doesn't work, look at doing a plan B by copying some old gnome-desktop code
[11:47] <darkxst> https://github.com/darkxst/displayconfig
[11:48] <darkxst> seb128, its all dbus
[11:48] <darkxst> and nothing to do with gnome-shell
[11:48] <darkxst> its all in mutter
[11:48] <Laney> okay so what I said last time still stands, ping me when you have stuff for sponsoring
[11:48] <seb128> those are the same thing to me
[11:48] <seb128> but noted ;-)
[11:49] <darkxst> seb128, for one there is no JS/gjs in mutter!
[11:49] <seb128> ls
[11:49] <seb128> ups
[11:50] <darkxst> but my concern, is this will continue to block us every cycle....
[11:50] <darkxst> I mean I can just go an rebase everything on 3.12 which it probably not to bad, but who knows what will happen in 3.14 and beyond
[11:51] <davmor2> seb128: No File or Directory ups located
[11:51] <Laney> if it becomes too horrible then forking will still be an option
[11:53] <seb128> davmor2, lol
[11:53] <seb128> well, it doesn't seem like we need to block, we can use that standalone service
[11:54] <seb128> or copy the old functions in u-s-d
[11:55] <Laney> yep
[11:55] <darkxst> there are probably a dozen patches each for u-s-d and u-c-c
[11:56] <seb128> hum, how much code are we talking about there? like how many functions are being dropped from gnome-desktop in the update?
[11:57] <seb128> I think my preferred solution would be to copy those functions/rename then if needed in u-s-d/u-c-c
[11:57] <seb128> it's a safer option than stacking changes and adding a new dbus service
[11:58] <darkxst> u-s-d/u-c-c patches just change from using gnome-desktop to dbus
[11:58] <darkxst> the code that moved was *all* the display config code
[11:58] <seb128> well, it might still be easy to copy ;-)
[11:58] <seb128> like just copy a bunch of .c/.h files in u-s-d source
[11:59] <darkxst> seb128, I doubt it would be that easy!
[11:59] <seb128> :-(
[11:59] <seb128> so back to square 1
[12:00] <darkxst> right, make libunity-desktop
[12:00] <darkxst> but only used by u-s-d/u-c-c
[12:00] <darkxst> I think that is the easiest option, avoiding the dbus daemon
[12:01] <Laney> but it only needs the X functions
[12:02] <darkxst> I suppose you could split out the X stuff into a new library
[12:02] <darkxst> but for example only 90% of xrandr plugin was moved into mutter (atleast for 3.10)
[12:04] <darkxst> or another option would be to rebase the u-s-d/u-c-c code off 3.12 for certain plugins/modules?
[12:04] <darkxst> but you would still need the daemon
[12:05] <seb128> we don't want the new display UI
[12:05] <darkxst> seb128, yes I have heard mpt doesnt like the egglistboxes
[12:06] <mpt> What’s an egglistbox?
[12:06] <seb128> well, it's also that our display panel is quite different from the upstream one
[12:06] <seb128> we have controls for the high dpi stuff there, and for the launcher and screen barrier
[12:07] <seb128> mpt, those sort of panels, http://afaikblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/privacy.png
[12:07] <darkxst> seb128, that is a forked panel? anyway updating won't affect that
[12:07] <seb128> darkxst, it's the "display" one with a stack of patches
[12:07] <mpt> oh, ha, yes
[12:08] <darkxst> seb128, nope its a forked panel
[12:08] <seb128> ?
[12:08] <darkxst> seb128, its called "Appearance" or something
[12:08] <seb128> well, a stack of patches can be called a fork, if that's what are you discussing
[12:08] <seb128> no, that's the background panel
[12:08] <seb128> display is the xrandr one
[12:08] <seb128> background/appearance is the wallpaper
[12:09] <darkxst> hmm so maybe its just a stack of XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP patches then, but I don't think so?
[12:09] <seb128> it is
[12:10] <seb128> http://i.stack.imgur.com/TULXr.png
[12:10] <mpt> The Launcher options could/should be moved to “Appearance” [sic] > “Behavior” if that would make syncing easier
[12:10] <seb128> well, that image is an earlier version, so the UI is not really nice, we did some tweaks since
[12:10] <darkxst> seb128, oh that looks ancient!
[12:10] <seb128> darkxst, that's what we current have...
[12:11] <seb128> (well, expect we fixed the alignments issues and some glitches)
[12:11] <seb128> except*
[12:13] <darkxst> seb128, https://www.dropbox.com/s/6r6jzssyjdnqd5y/Screenshot%20from%202014-06-16%2022%3A12%3A00.png
[12:14] <darkxst> and I know you will dislike that :)
[12:15] <seb128> darkxst, indeed, but that's not even the point, it's just that the UI is so different that we can't really "rebase our code on 3.12"
[12:15] <seb128> well, assuming we don't want the new UI and we don't want it
[12:16] <darkxst> right, so fork gnome-desktop into libunity-desktop
[12:16] <seb128> hum, I'm pondering doing a summary email to the desktop list, listing options
[12:16] <seb128> well, we have 3 options
[12:16] <seb128> 1- create a new package with the old lib codebase, to use in u-s-d/u-c-c
[12:17] <seb128> 2- copy the files/functions we need in those sources
[12:17] <seb128> 3- try the new dbus service and patch u-s-d/u-c-c to use it
[12:17] <seb128> the option-3 is the most likely to create work for us
[12:18] <seb128> 1 and 2 are basically no runtime change, we just need to see if the copy is easy or to decide to keep a full copy of the source only for that
[12:18] <darkxst> seb128, option 3 is mostly done, but will need rebasing, and probably create some amount of bugs
[12:18] <seb128> right, it's the same amount of bugs which is the issue
[12:18] <darkxst> I'm not convinced to 2 would be that easy...
[12:18] <seb128> why? it's basically a variant of 1
[12:18] <seb128> either those functions are mostly standalone or not
[12:19] <seb128> if they are not, it's going to be an issue for 1 as well
[12:19] <darkxst> seb128, have you look at the code? it involves lots of minor api changes in gnome-desktop
[12:19] <seb128> ?
[12:19] <darkxst> seb128, so x-code got moved into mutter
[12:20] <darkxst> gnome-desktop has adjustment to re-direct to mutter dbus
[12:20] <seb128> we would copy gnome-desktop-xrandr.c/h (inventing a filename for example) from gnome-desktop 3.8 to u-s-d and include the local .h/build with that .c as part of u-s-d and have that code in u-s-d
[12:20] <seb128> so it's like we would static build g-d 3.8 in u-s-d
[12:21] <seb128> rather than having a shared lib
[12:21] <seb128> why wouldn't that work?
[12:21] <seb128> that code should call xrandr and be fine
[12:21] <seb128> no?
[12:21] <darkxst> seb128, oh, you mean copy my daemon code into u-s-d?
[12:21] <seb128> no
[12:21] <darkxst> or you want to try and disect the mess of changes that led to that?
[12:22] <seb128> copy gnome-desktop 3.8's code in there, so rather than using a shared libunity, have those functions be part of u-s-d
[12:22] <seb128> they would be built in xrandr.so
[12:22] <seb128> rather than being in a lib that is loaded at runtime
[12:23] <seb128> it's basically the "create a fork for gnome-desktop 3.8", just not making it a share library
[12:23] <seb128> shared
[12:29] <darkxst> seb128, its really not as simple as just copying a bit of code
[12:30] <darkxst> so there are really two options
[12:30] <seb128> why not?
[12:30] <darkxst> 1- fork gnome-desktop
[12:31] <darkxst> 2- keep gnome-desktop but create a  dummy dbus interface that works with the current gnome-desktop
[12:32] <darkxst> seb128, because they changed the api
[12:32] <seb128> well, that's not relevant
[12:32] <seb128> u-s-d uses the old 3.8 api, so if we copy those function in the u-s-d xrand plugin we could stop using libgnome-desktop there
[12:32] <seb128> just use the local copied code
[12:32] <seb128> no?
[12:33] <darkxst> well sure, if you copy the entire 3.8 gnome-desktop api
[12:33] <darkxst> in which case you have basically forked it anyway
[12:34] <darkxst> and it probably doesnt matter too much where it lives
[12:34] <seb128> well, gnome-desktop has stuff like keyboard layout handling, why would we need to copy those?
[12:34] <seb128> that and forked is fine, the issue is "shipping the fork as a shared library"
[12:34] <seb128> which means we might get people starting using that library, since it's shared and available on the install
[12:34] <darkxst> well it only needs to be shared between u-s-d and u-c-c
[12:35] <seb128> I'm going to have a look at how much code that is to copy around, to see if the option is a valid one
[12:35] <seb128> but yeah, otherwise the rename and ship the old version would work
[12:36] <darkxst> seb128, so basically its 90% of xrandr plugin, but also other things like (mainly) idle monitor
[12:38] <ricotz> Sweet5hark, great! thanks
[12:40] <darkxst> seb128, and believe me when I say that number of bug fixes you guys are missing out on just over a UI is pretty insane
[12:43] <seb128> darkxst, it's always "I can't believe you guys are using so buggy software", yet users are still happy to run 10 year old windows versions or whatever
[12:43] <seb128> we get almost no complain about the current xrandr case
[12:43] <seb128> works perfectly for what I have to do
[12:43] <seb128> so I'm sure the new code fix a ton of issues, but none I care about for my personal use...
[12:44] <seb128> (we don't get lot of bug reports either on that topic)
[12:45] <darkxst> oh seb128, yes I know you only start caring when in ranks highly on e.u.c ;)
[12:45] <seb128> not true
[12:46] <seb128> when it's popular in launchpad or when it's coming back from e.g oem teams as well
[12:46] <seb128> or when it's pointed in reviews or user forums
[12:46] <seb128> xrandr is in none of those categories though
[12:47] <darkxst> seb128, most users don't even know what xrandr is
[12:47] <darkxst> and I was talking more in general over the whole g-s-d
[12:47] <darkxst> not just xrandr bugs
[12:47] <seb128> yeah, we want to update things like wacom
[12:48] <darkxst> power?
[12:48] <seb128> g-s-d is more like candidate for updates
[12:48] <seb128> the issue is g-c-c and the new UIs
[12:48] <seb128> yeah, power could be one
[12:49] <tjaalton> Laney: filed bug 1330468, does it look ok and was this enough?
[12:51] <darkxst> seb128, but yeh, upstream basically consider gnome-desktop/g-s-d/g-c-c a set, no guarantee of api stability there
[12:51] <darkxst> maybe even an exclusive set
[12:52] <seb128> yeah, it makes trickier our job dealing with u-s-d/u-c-c
[12:52] <seb128> but that's our issue, not yours
[12:53] <darkxst> seb128, well it becomes ours as well... once we are blocked waiting...
[12:54] <darkxst> I would like to land the upower transition once its ready, and then move straight onto gnome-desktop 3.12
[13:00] <Laney> tjaalton: I think so, we'll see when didrocks and co look at it though ;-)
[13:01] <tjaalton> yeah
[13:01] <Laney> thanks for filing
[13:01] <didrocks> I'll have a look before EOW, is that fine?
[13:03] <Laney> no huge rush right now, thanks
[13:03] <darkxst> anyway night all, I should probably sleep now ;)
[13:04] <didrocks> see you darkxst
[14:20] <seb128> Laney, in fact current desktop-next does work/autologin, the issue I had earlier were likely because Mir doesn't run in VMs yet (I knew the session wouldn't work but I though I would see it trying to log in at least/having logs in the userdir)
[14:20] <seb128> works on real hardware
[14:21] <Laney> oh really!
[14:21] <Laney> I found a USB stick on the back of a shelf
[14:21] <Laney> so I'll see if it works on my hardware
[14:22] <Laney> don't know if we have mir/nvidia
[14:22] <ogra_> nouveau should work afaik
[14:38] <seb128> pitti, ^ btw
[14:38] <seb128> pitti, ubuntu-desktop-next works now (on real hardware, not on VMs)
[14:38] <pitti> seb128: yay! re-downloading :)
[14:38] <seb128> pitti, ;-)
[14:39] <ogra_> screw VMs ... they are for clouds !
[14:39] <pitti> seb128: I want them to run in an otto container :)
[14:40] <pitti> (actually half-serious, if we want to test them automatically)
[14:40] <pitti> didrocks, jibel: is otto still running in production, OOI?
[14:40] <seb128> pitti, having automated testing would be great
[14:40] <Laney> seb128: will you test the installer?
[14:40] <seb128> Laney, yes, about to do that
[14:40] <Laney> ooh, looks like cyphermox fixed the modemmanager stuff
[14:40] <Laney> maybe we can turn recommends back on then
[14:41] <cyphermox> Laney: yeah, I did, sorry
[14:41] <seb128> Laney, do you think we should seed the desktop wallpapers on that iso?
[14:41] <seb128> Laney, is that a recommends? ;-)
[14:41] <Laney> for the greeter?
[14:41] <Laney> :( :( :(
[14:41] <seb128> yes, greeter being one
[14:41] <Laney> ): ): ):
[14:41] <seb128> I was also looking for images to browse in gallery
[14:41] <Laney> if you want
[14:42] <seb128> let's maybe try to turn recommends on
[14:42] <ogra_> uuh
[14:42] <seb128> then have a review of what is there and shouldn't be/what is missing, and update the seeds
[14:44] <seb128> ogra_, ?
[14:44] <ogra_> seb128, just make sure ot only do it in the desktop seed ... and i guess your image will grow twice as big :)
[14:46] <seb128> ogra_, yeah, only desktop, and let's see, it shouldn't (desktop is not twice the touch image)
[14:46] <ogra_> no, but touch includes a lot non-yet-desktop packages that have recommends
[14:46] <seb128> well, we can do a build with them and see where we are
[14:47] <ogra_> yeah, sure
[14:47] <Laney> if they aren't wanted then they shouldn't be recommends
[14:47] <Laney> if they are then we want them
[14:47] <seb128> that image is not a production one anyway, it's made to see where we stand and deal with those issues
[14:47] <ogra_> well, i could say the same abouut touch :)
[14:47] <seb128> right, touch should use recommends
[14:47] <Laney> yes you could
[14:47] <seb128> but let's not discuss that today :p
[14:47] <ogra_> but cleaning up the recommends there will cause a big delta in the end
[14:47] <seb128> it's not going to lead anywhere useful
[14:48] <Laney> ubuntu-artwork is explicitly seeded in desktop
[14:48] <ogra_> well, i would like us to get away from the no-recommends setting at some point
[14:48] <Laney> i think we'd need to add that to touch/destkop too
[14:48] <ogra_> even on touch
[14:48] <ogra_> but i expect that to take a full cycle to clean up all the bits and pieces ... surely nothing to do this round
[14:49] <Laney> man look at my cool diagram in bzr log ubuntu-touch.utopic r193
[14:50] <Laney> seb128: okay, added ubuntu-artwork
[14:50] <seb128> Laney, thanks
[15:04] <seb128> Laney, install works fine and gives a working session
[15:05] <Laney> erm
[15:05] <Laney> wow
[15:05] <seb128> ;-)
[15:05] <Laney> we totally could have demoed this :P
[15:06] <Laney> if that fix got in when it was first propsoed
[15:06] <ogra_> i think xnox ran it all the time in mla
[15:06] <ogra_> *malta
[15:06] <pitti> w00t
[15:06] <pitti> great work, guys!
[15:07] <seb128> yeah
[15:07] <seb128> pitti, thanks ;-)
[15:07] <seb128> ogra_, we were running the unity8 session as well, we even demoed it installing clicks and running gedit...
[15:07] <seb128> ogra_, we are speaking about the live image there
[15:07] <ogra_> ah
[15:11] <didrocks> pitti: sorry, was on a call. I'm not 100% sure, but I heared still the CI team talking about the otto machines for Touch recently (like a month or so ago). fginther would know more I guess
[15:20] <seb128> pitti, do you need NEW review for those touch langpack sources?
[15:20] <pitti> seb128: sorry, no, will accept them wholesale
[15:20] <seb128> pitti, k; thanks ;-)
[15:25] <seb128> bregma, do you know if indicator-network not being available under unity8-desktop session is an known issue?
[15:26] <bregma> seb128, I am not aware of any such issue
[15:26] <seb128> bregma, is it listed for you?
[15:26] <seb128> it's not here and the settings wifi panel is empty
[15:27] <Laney> seb128: is it running?
[15:27] <Laney> upstart-wise
[15:28] <bregma> let me update my test systems
[15:30] <seb128> Laney, I guess I need to dbus environment from the session?
[15:30] <Laney> yeah
[15:30] <Laney> or UPSTART_SESSION or whatever it is
[15:30] <seb128> status indicator-network states "unknown job"
[15:30] <seb128> the process it's not running
[15:30] <Laney> get the environ from unity8 or something
[15:31] <seb128> but .cache/upstart/indicator-network.log has an entry "stop/pre-start, process nnnn"
[15:31] <Laney> yes
[15:31] <Laney> I think it's the pre-start script stopping the job
[15:32] <Laney> see /usr/share/upstart/sessions/indicator-network.conf
[15:32] <Laney> probably needs to list unity8-x11 and unity8-mir there
[15:32] <seb128> it's "stop/waiting"
[15:32] <Laney> hack the script then 'start indicator-network' and see if it works
[15:34]  * Laney checks e-d-s one last time
[15:36] <seb128> Laney, bregma: right, the job needs tweaking to start on unity8 sessions out of touch
[15:36]  * Laney nods
[15:37] <bregma> seb128, thinking back, I noticed it gone in Malta, so it's been broken for a while
[15:37] <Laney> this was added before trusty to prevent double indicators
[15:37] <bregma> I think it happened after the tweak to make two indicators not show up in the 14.04 unity 7 desktop
[15:37] <seb128> bregma, well, I guess since before trusty when we "fixed" it to not start in !touch so we wouldn't get it under unity7 sessions
[15:37] <seb128> lol
[15:38] <bregma> the fix worked
[15:43] <seb128> bregma, do you want to mp that?
[15:43] <bregma> seb128, yes please
[15:44] <Laney> haha
[15:45] <pitti> ok, c'est l'heure de football, à demain !
[15:46] <didrocks> pitti: I think I need to socially answer "enjoy" even if I don't know how you can enjoy that :)
[15:46] <pitti> didrocks: yes, it's indeed a social exercise -- we'll go to the beer garden :)
[15:47] <pitti> (we don't have a TV)
[15:47] <didrocks> pitti: I can do with the beer part, less with the football one though ;)
[15:47] <pitti> didrocks: if France loses its next game, it's due to you!  Ok I'll keep some for that day :p
[15:49] <seb128> pitti, bon chance pour le match!
[16:15] <Laney> go go gadget e-d-s
[16:21] <seb128> have a nice evening everyone!
[16:51] <chrisccoulson> qengho, are you back this week?
[19:39] <ari-tczew> hello
[19:40] <ari-tczew> can someone update a branch of sane-backends? I've proposed a merge for https://code.launchpad.net/~ari-tczew/sane-backends/ubuntu/+merge/220881
[23:23] <robert_ancell> tea time!


[06:30] <Burgundavia> ah shit
[06:30] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, ping
[06:30] <rob^> haha
[06:31] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: edit conflict there
[06:31] <Madpilot> I'm reverting
[06:31] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, we should be good now
[06:31] <Madpilot> I think so...
[06:31] <Burgundavia> who did that?
[06:32] <Madpilot> did what?
[06:32] <Madpilot> I was restoring RootSudo, and setting up RootPrivs as a redirect
[06:33] <Burgundavia> the orginal redirect away from RootSudo?
[06:33] <Madpilot> there was never a redirect from RS to RP, just a link
[06:34] <Burgundavia> it ended up a circular redirect for a second there
[06:34] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: OK, it's all good now, RootSudo is back and RootPrivs is a redirect to RS
[06:35] <Madpilot> I had thought that RootPrivileges was new, but it's been around a while, lurking...
[06:37] <Madpilot> AndrewZajac2 seems to have done the moving, and of course he doesn't have a wiki page or contact point...
[06:37] <Burgundavia> he does actually
[06:37] <Burgundavia> arzajac at yahoo dot ca
[06:38] <Burgundavia> did Andrew move it from RootSudo to RootPrivs?
[06:38] <Burgundavia> I am confused
[06:38] <Madpilot> ... so am I, now
[06:38] <Madpilot> ;)
[06:38] <Burgundavia> it looks like RootSudo just got recreated
[06:39] <Burgundavia> somebody must have moved it to RootPrivs a while back
[06:39] <jsgotangco> whats up
[06:39] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, we had a minor mess with RootSudo and RootPrivs
[06:39] <Madpilot> I think RootSudo was deleted, then restored by Andrew, so we may be blaming him unfairly...
[06:39] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, this kind of stupidity lead the mediawiki devs to put page moves in the history
[06:40] <Burgundavia> a feature that should be ported to moin
[06:40] <Madpilot> jsgotangco: see RecentChanges for the entertainment - Burgundavia and I were editing at cross-purposes for a minute there...
[06:40] <Burgundavia> and moin does not appear to have a undelete
[06:40] <jsgotangco> wiki love :)
[06:41] <Burgundavia> the wiki not appearing to save edits is a major issue
[06:43] <Burgundavia> ok, it does have an undelete
[06:43] <Burgundavia> it is just hidden
[06:45] <Madpilot> OK, here's an oddity...
[06:46] <Burgundavia> hmm?
[06:46] <Madpilot> how often are the Category<Whatever> pages rebuilt for addition/deletions? I thought it was instant
[06:46] <Burgundavia> so did I
[06:47] <Madpilot> check out CatCleanup - WikiGuide is still there - but when you check WikiGuide, the only Category it appears in is Documentation
[06:59] <rob^> have branch and trunk been resynced yet?
[07:00] <jsgotangco> nope
[07:00] <rob^> didn't think so
[07:10] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: ping
[07:10] <Burgundavia> Madpilot, pong
[07:12] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: I've figured out what happened to RootSudo
[07:12] <Madpilot> it wasn't deleted
[07:12] <Madpilot> it was renamed RootPrivs
[07:12] <Burgundavia> ah
[07:12] <rob^> heh
[07:12] <Burgundavia> and who did that?
[07:12] <Madpilot> then AndrewZajac2 built a NEW RootSudo, as a sort of redirect
[07:12] <rob^> this is the kind of page that needs to me moved to our controled wiki
[07:13] <Burgundavia> hmm
[07:13] <rob^> s/me/be
[07:13] <Madpilot> 2005-10-23 22:51:06 Mauriciohernande -- a more general and clear name <-- looks like he renamed it
[07:13] <Burgundavia> moving and deleting pages needs to removed from general users
[07:14] <Burgundavia> but splitting the wikis is a bad thing, unless we move all docs
[07:14] <rob^> can't we just do a redirect?
[07:15] <Burgundavia> an interwiki one
[07:15] <rob^> yeah
[07:15] <Burgundavia> that gets nasty
[07:16] <rob^> sounds like a problem with moin
[07:16] <Burgundavia> "good urls never die"
[07:16] <rob^> hence redirect
[07:16] <Burgundavia> ya
[07:16] <Burgundavia> oh, nasty argument brewing over at wikipedia
[07:17] <rob^> the chan?
[07:17] <Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tools/1-Click_Answers
[07:17] <Burgundavia> anyway, I disgress
[07:18] <Burgundavia> I really don't like the idea of splitting the docs
[07:18] <Burgundavia> it hasn't work in the past, with the freezing attempt
[07:18] <Burgundavia> s/work/worked
[07:19] <rob^> really the wiki team need control of the wiki, its kind of stupid otherwise
[07:19] <Burgundavia> yes
[07:19] <rob^> http://www.cafepress.com/lesbianlinux
[07:19] <Burgundavia> it is dumb that anybody can delete or move
[07:19] <Burgundavia> as it has been shown that people cannot be trusted with this
[07:21] <Burgundavia> salut bhuvan
[08:53] <mdke> morning
[08:54] <rob^> hi
[08:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi mdke
[08:55] <Kamping_Kaiser> hi rob^
[08:56] <rob^> hmm operating 2 pcs, a laptop and an xbox at the same time is fun
[08:56] <mdke> some crack going on with the wiki?
[08:57] <rob^> apprently
[09:05] <Burgundavia> mdke, both Madpilot and myself trying to fix the same issue at the same time
[09:06] <mdke> ah
[09:06] <mdke> well the crack must have been that there was an issue in the first place right?
[09:07] <Burgundavia> yes, someone moved RootSudo
[09:08] <Kamping_Kaiser> o_0
[09:08] <mdke> ooh
[09:08] <mdke> i mean, oof
[09:09] <rob^> does one need a wireless access point to have a wireless network? or just network cards?
[09:09] <Burgundavia> you can do ad-hoc with 2 wireless cards
[09:09] <Kamping_Kaiser> you can have just cards
[09:09] <Kamping_Kaiser> 2+ cards cant you?
[09:10] <rob^> so more then 2 I need an ap
[09:10] <mdke> the guy who moved RootSudo is active on the mailing list, you can tick him off
[09:10] <mdke> he is often in here too, nick of mhz
[09:11] <mdke> although yeah, the name RootPrivileges was better
[09:12] <Burgundavia> regardless, the mover didn't put a redirect in place
[09:12] <mdke> indeed
[09:12] <mdke> hence the ticking off needed
[09:14] <jsgotangco> hmm so mhz did something?
[09:14] <mdke> on the italian wiki we disabled deletion and renaming
[09:14] <mdke> except for admins
[09:16] <Burgundavia> mdke, sounds sane to me
[09:19] <mdke> yeah well the italian wiki does not get so much editing i guess
[09:20] <mdke> if we implemented it on the ubuntu wiki we'd need to set up a deletion/renaming request system
[09:20] <mdke> i'll talk to henrik about it
[09:21] <jsgotangco> ACLs
[09:23] <Burgundavia> that is pretty easy, we just need a page for it
[09:25] <mdke> yeah
[09:27] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, how do you connect with people on linkedin?
[09:28] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, do you follow the method that involves you manually entering their email addy?
[09:28] <jsgotangco> yeah
[09:28] <jsgotangco> its much faster to do that if you know the person
[09:29] <Burgundavia> hmm
[09:30] <jsgotangco> i have a contact that has like 300 people on his list
[09:30] <jsgotangco> heh
[09:32] <Burgundavia> bob2 = Rob Wier, no?
[09:33] <Madpilot> Burgundavia: yes
[09:35] <Burgundavia> http://www.happypenguin.org/show?Warsow
[09:45] <jsgotangco> ahh too bad mako's not coming on UBZ
[09:45] <Burgundavia> holy crap wikipedia has some good mappers --> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Karte_baikal2.png
[09:45] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, no, why not?
[09:46] <jsgotangco> well he said on his blog he's skipping UBZ
[09:47] <Burgundavia> ya, just read that
[09:48] <rob^> grr why are my mp3s playing at twice the speed?
[09:48] <jsgotangco> lol
[09:48] <jsgotangco> because you;re in the future rob^ ....
[09:49] <rob^> according to the clock on the pc I'm three hours into the future too
[09:49] <rob^> wf?
[09:49] <rob^> s/wf?/wtf?
[09:49] <rob^> grr
[09:51] <jsgotangco> haha
[09:55] <rob^> its only doing it in gnome apps
[10:11] <mdke> Burgundavia, ping
[10:12] <mdke> i have an idea
[10:12] <mdke> let's start brainstorming on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWiki and see if we can make it into a decent spec for some wide-ranging wiki changes
[10:14] <jsgotangco> checking...
[10:15] <mdke> jsgotangco, there  is nothing there
[10:15] <jsgotangco> ahhh ok
[10:15] <mdke> but it is an available spec :)
[10:15] <jsgotangco> wow opera just crashed on gmail
[10:21] <Madpilot> could that spec include things like "move the MOTU/dev/spec pages to a seperate wiki somewhere"?
[10:21] <Madpilot> dev.ubuntu.com or something
[10:22] <rob^> but doesn't that still need to be a wiki
[10:22] <rob^> so yet another wiki to maintain etc
[10:23] <Madpilot> yeah, I know, but would get the actual user docs seperated from the dev docs
[10:24] <mdke> Madpilot, the idea was possibly to separate the user docs by moving those
[10:24] <mdke> corey's idea at least
[10:24] <mdke> leaving the main wiki for all those development activities
[10:24] <Madpilot> yikes... that's a way bigger and messier job than moving the dev stuff
[10:24] <mdke> actually I'm not sure it is
[10:25] <Madpilot> no?
[10:25] <Madpilot> I'd assumed that the doc side of the current wiki was larger, but maybe not
[10:25] <rob^> is going to take a bit of work either way
[10:25] <rob^> and moving to our own wiki means we have control
[10:26] <Madpilot> the other reason to leave the user docs where they are is that people know those URLs already
[10:26] <mdke> Madpilot, i'm not sure, but in any case moving pages is pretty easy with moin
[10:27] <mdke> there are a number of options for the URLs
[10:27] <mdke> anyhow, this sort of thing is what will benefit from some brainstorming on a spec
[10:27] <rob^> just point wiki.u.c to the new wiki, and dev.w.c to the dev one
[10:27] <rob^> err that should be dev.u.c
[10:27] <mdke> rob^, part of my reasoning for moving the docs would be to have them at the same place as the static docs (help.u.c)
[10:27] <mdke> fragmented documentation is bad
[10:28] <jsgotangco> aye
[10:28] <rob^> but won't that mean people will just start new docs on the old wiki
[10:28] <jsgotangco> no extra wikis for me
[10:28] <rob^> ?
[10:28] <rob^> the idea is people can improve and contribute
[10:28] <rob^> I think all we need to do is have normal user accounts limited moreso
[10:28] <mdke> rob^, if we had a wiki at help.u.c it would not be locked down, people can improve and contribute there
[10:29] <mdke> nah, there are more problems than just that
[10:29] <mdke> anyhow, i'll work on the spec for a while, and see if I can convince you
[10:29] <mdke> and myself
[10:29] <rob^> I'll check it out
[10:29] <rob^> setting up moin isn't a trivial task
[10:29] <mdke> it will be set up anyhow
[10:30] <mdke> Madpilot, for an option with regard to the URLs, we tried moving the Italian wiki recently, see e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ItalianSudo for what we did
[10:30] <rob^> and we will need ssh access to the server to properly administer it
[10:30] <jsgotangco> err how do you move between channels in irssi?
[10:30] <mdke> dude
[10:30] <mdke> we have ssh access already
[10:30] <rob^> ?
[10:30] <jsgotangco> yeah
[10:30] <rob^> we do?
[10:30] <mdke> jsgotangco, alt + number or arrow key
[10:30] <mdke> rob^, how the hell do you think all our docs are there?
[10:30] <jsgotangco> well the user at least...
[10:31] <rob^> some asked?
[10:31] <jsgotangco> mdke: ahh nice...
[10:31] <rob^> s/some/someone
[10:31] <Madpilot> mdke: yeah, I saw the Italian changes to streaming past in RecentChanges
[10:31] <jsgotangco> rob^: i have access but i don't use it
[10:31] <mdke> Madpilot, another option would be to use "refresh"
[10:31] <mdke> although that isn't currently active on our wiki
[10:31] <rob^> how does one accquire access to said server?
[10:31] <jsgotangco> just ask mdke  the account...
[10:31] <mdke> rob^, the doc.u.c and help.u.c server is admined by me and henrik
[10:32] <jsgotangco> its just one account really...
[10:32] <Madpilot> mdke: either way, doing it that way puts an extra layer between people and resources...
[10:32] <jsgotangco> well anyway because it was moved, its another ACL
[10:32] <jsgotangco> the last one was with lindoe
[10:32] <rob^> is it your own server or a shared server?
[10:32] <jsgotangco> rob^: serverpronto
[10:32] <mdke> Madpilot, only for the purposes of the old URLs, there is no extra layer once people get used to the new ones
[10:32] <rob^> ah
[10:32] <rob^> ubuntu paying for it?
[10:32] <mdke> yes
[10:32] <jsgotangco> yes
[10:32] <rob^> nice
[10:33] <mdke> jsgotangco, actually I didn't give you a login yet iirc
[10:33] <mdke> you say i did?
[10:33] <jsgotangco> mdke: no the old one i meant
[10:33] <jsgotangco> not the server pronto
[10:33] <mdke> ah
[10:34] <jsgotangco> no rush
[10:34] <jsgotangco> until we have a use for such
[10:34] <mdke> i'll give you logins to the new one. although please don't use em for heavy backup or anything
[10:34] <mdke> what usernames do you want?
[10:34] <jsgotangco> heavy backup? *shudder*
[10:34] <rob^> heh
[10:35] <jsgotangco> mdke: i'll create a chroot in no time :) joke
[10:35] <mdke> hmm
[10:35] <rob^> hmm I just realised I have an mp3 copy of the hackers movie soundtrack..
[10:35] <mdke> well we have 100GB left
[10:35] <rob^> how did that get there?
[10:35] <jsgotangco> 100GB of storage? wow
[10:36] <rob^> overkill?
[10:36] <jsgotangco> well if they buy in bulk that's cheap
[10:36] <rob^> yeah
[10:36] <mdke> that is just the package they offered
[10:37] <jsgotangco> mdke: we can try it for baz & bzr expermentation though
[10:37] <jsgotangco> it won't eat up a lot of space and bandwidth
[10:37] <mdke> guess so
[10:37] <rob^> hey would you all prefer me to just do a one page (ie short) faq guide for xubuntu instead of the ug (as per my email)?
[10:37] <mdke> yes, if that :)
[10:38] <jsgotangco> dunno i don't use xfce..didn't like it
[10:38] <jsgotangco> i'd rather use ion2 than that hehehe...
[10:38] <rob^> its pretty nice on older hardware, gnome like environment that doesn't slow your old pc down
[10:39] <jsgotangco> yeah anything gtk runs too
[10:40] <mdke> i will try it
[10:40] <rob^> well its kind of gnome like, as in it uses gtk2
[10:40] <mdke> but tbh xubuntu is not high priority
[10:40] <rob^> no, its not
[10:40] <mdke> it is not a "partner" as jerome says
[10:40] <mdke> and it has its own guide
[10:41] <rob^> never said it was..
[10:41] <mdke> unless we see that the guide isn't valid, then i think we should concentrate elsewhere
[10:41] <rob^> well I was thinking of just adding ubuntu related info to it anyway
[10:41] <jsgotangco> well imo rob^ should do as he pleases on xubuntu if he wants too...we can't pin him down to do stuff that interests him :)
[10:42] <jsgotangco> but he's riddled with bugzilla bugs atm :)
[10:42] <mdke> sure
[10:42] <rob^> umm about 10 I think
[10:43] <jsgotangco> wow did trunk shrink?
[10:43] <jsgotangco> its only 180MB now
[10:43] <rob^> yeah either way xubuntu will be low priority, I'd rather see the kubuntu faq guide done first
[10:43] <jsgotangco> compared to the previous 250+
[10:45] <mdke> i think kde upstream is gone
[10:49] <mdke> ok i'm gonna do some work
[10:52] <Burgundavia> mdke, ok, will do
[10:52] <Burgundavia> mdke, night all
[12:17] <rob^> what happen to BetterWiki?
[12:18] <mdke> it is now BetterWikiDocs
[12:18] <rob^> ah
[04:53] <mdke> jbailey, have you made any progress with the merge? can we help?
[04:54] <jbailey> mdke: I didn't, sorry.  Friday got crazy on me, and I'm still settling in from the weekend.
[07:55] <jjesse> slow day?
[07:55] <jjesse> :)
[08:20] <jjesse> hiya apokryphos
[08:20] <apokryphos> hey
[08:20] <apokryphos> how's it going
[08:24] <jjesse> going well, getting started on KUDOS -> docbook
[08:25] <apokryphos> wow, quite a mission
[08:25] <apokryphos> will be real useful though =)
[08:38] <jjesse> yeah right now i'm looking to see what the difference between the FAQ Guide and KUDOS is, how much we can steal :)
[10:24] <jjesse> what's there something posted to the list about opening in openoffice and saving in docbook format?
[10:24] <apokryphos> why use that when you have Quanta+ and Kate ;-)
[10:25] <apokryphos> (good article on Quanta+ as docbook editor not too long ago: http://dot.kde.org/1124997856/ )
[10:25] <jjesse> i use kate right now
[10:26] <apokryphos> quanta has more features, but has quite a few UI issues
[10:26] <apokryphos> quite a few anti-kde-ers pick it out as a "bloated program", but really it's just featureful, without a perfect UI :D
[10:27] <jjesse> hmm i'll look into it
[10:27] <apokryphos> http://quanta.kdewebdev.org/tutorials/quanta-docbook/quanta-toolbars.png pretty much sums up a lot of the problems; widgets in widgets


[01:42] <j1mc> _MMA_: ping
[01:42] <_MMA_> Yo
[01:43] <j1mc> hi... i think i saw you in the xubuntu meeting the other day.
[01:43] <_MMA_> Yep
[01:43] <j1mc> cody has referenced you to me a few times.  i'm reworking the xubuntu artwork wiki, and was wondering if you could just take a quick look at it with me.
[01:44] <j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
[01:44] <j1mc> would you mind?
[01:44] <j1mc> the beginning sucks... but...
[01:45] <_MMA_> Sure. I do have to be quick though as my wife is about to kill me if I dont get off this thing. :P Sunday on will be best to really give it attention.
[01:45] <j1mc> ok... should i just send an email?
[01:45] <j1mc> i'm not on the artwork ML
[01:45] <j1mc> i'm just wondering if the Get Involved part...
[01:45] <_MMA_> Ill look for a sec now.
[01:46] <j1mc> is it necessary?  does someone need to be a part of the Artwork Team to contribute to Xubuntu artwork?
[01:46] <j1mc> i don't know art team protocol
[01:46] <j1mc> btw, the links suck on that page.  i'm just doing cleanup.
[01:48] <j1mc> i guess i can move "Get Involved" under the "Guidelines" heading - put it at the bottom.
[01:48] <_MMA_> j1mc: No. Not really. All it takes to be involved with the Xubuntu art is to actually produce and put together a cohesive theme.
[01:49] <_MMA_> And that wiki page looks good.
[01:49] <j1mc> ok... cool... it's coming along.
[01:49] <j1mc> thanks for your help.
[01:49] <j1mc> have a good weekend.
[01:50] <_MMA_> Though, from my experience, you can get alot of info on how to help, but none really stick it out and do what needs to be done. Are you just doing wiki work or art s well?
[01:52] <_MMA_> j1mc: Ok. Hit me up later. Sunday Ill be around. Monday and during the week will be best.


[12:59] <thorwil> chaotic: hi! your boss like #2 of http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/spreadubuntu_set_02.png but said "May need some final perfectionist tweaking on spacing / tracking"
[13:00] <thorwil> chaotic: how do you see that? the SVG can be found at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~t-w-/%2Bjunk/spreadubuntu_art/files/4
[14:04] <chaotic>  thorwil just discussing with marcushaslam
[16:37] <thorwil> chaotic: so, is there an outcome of that discussion? ;)
[16:48] <chaotic> thorwil: hi, Marcus is looking at the new Ubuntu One logo too at the moment - I've made him aware of this but we don't have a final decision just yet
[16:50] <chaotic> thorwil: go ahead with number two (think that's definitely the nicest) and if we can we'll revisit it once the other things are in place
[17:14] <thorwil> chaotic: ok, thanks
[17:16] <doctormo> thorwil: I wanted to say: *high five*
[17:18] <thorwil> \o
[17:19] <thorwil> doctormo: there's a hole in my vocabulary, no proper response, so you get the above instead ^^
[17:21] <thorwil> at least i guess "to punch in" or "to knock in" doesn't work
[17:24] <chaotic> thorwil: :)
[17:27] <doctormo> thorwil: I liked your designs.
[18:29] <thorwil> doctormo: thanks, i got that :)  high five just got me wondering about a possible translation of a german idiom
[18:31] <thorwil> kwwii: is there an english equivalent to the german "einschlagen" in the sense of answering a give-me-five?
[19:45] <kwwii> thorwil: hit me or such, but it sounds kinda funky
[19:46] <thorwil> kwwii: i see. thanks!
[19:46] <kwwii> np
[20:34] <doctormo> thorwil: are you still here?
[20:35] <thorwil> doctormo: yes. wrestling with flight schedules to orlando ;)
[20:41]  * thorwil decides to get high in amsterdam
[20:44] <thorwil> doctormo: what's the matter?
[20:58] <doctormo> thorwil: There has been some conversation on the UCC about the free culture showcase, which parts are you involved with that (if any)
[20:59] <thorwil> doctormo: none (i once took part with a piece of music)
[21:00] <doctormo> thorwil: OK do you know who the principle people are now?
[21:00] <thorwil> doctormo: no. i would ask ivanka
[21:01] <vish> come on thorwil ! spill it!
[21:01] <doctormo> thorwil: I meant community people that were involved before the design team. Just trying to see who we have.
[21:01] <doctormo> If you're not sure, that's ok, I'll scout some more.
[21:01] <vish> doctormo: iirc jcastro was incharge of it..
[21:01] <doctormo> By the way, would you want to be involved at all in the competition?
[21:03] <thorwil> doctormo: well, i vaguely recall being on a session in dallas about the showcase.
[21:03] <thorwil> vish: huh?
[21:03] <vish> thorwil: you know all the secrets! ;p
[21:04] <thorwil> vish: you see, some of them are true secrets, because i must have forgotten about them!!
[21:04] <thorwil> there must be a gobby document
[21:06] <thorwil> doctormo: i'd be reluctant to be on the jury, just in case i ever want to submit some work myself (though currently, that is not likely, either)
[21:07] <vish> doctormo: michael forrest did the recent music free culture thing..
[21:07] <doctormo> thorwil: I don't think anyone in the organisation of the project _should_ be judging. We'll leave that to the CC ;-)
[21:08] <thorwil> well, *yawn* ... good night! :)
[21:08] <doctormo> thorwil: I was wondering if it was wise to bring in the community theme package and the sound theme into the same competition.
[21:11] <thorwil> doctormo: the community theme package needs special attention and i don't think it fits in. the sound theme is a tricky business, where competition on the level of complete themes would likely do more harm than good
[21:12] <doctormo> Hmm perhaps strict enterance into those parts of it.
[21:12] <vish> doctormo: you are mixing a few things in here..
[21:12] <doctormo> vish: Deliberately so.
[21:12] <vish> doctormo: conor from design team wanted to look into the sound theme
[21:13] <vish> doctormo: they planned it for 11.04 and not sooner..
[21:14]  * doctormo says to himself that if he can't mix ideas in his own head because of lack of knowlege, then he'll just keep putting about absurdity until the mix happens and things fall out.
[21:14] <doctormo> vish: Lucky for conor that the next showcase will be for 11.04
[21:15] <vish> doctormo: i guess you missed the announcement for the sound theme on design blog?
[21:16] <doctormo> vish: I probably read it.
[22:29] <coz_> build error on maverick    http://pastebin.com/V2HizeuB


[17:24] <raevol> happy Friday!
[17:24] <pleia2> happy friday
[17:24] <raevol> pleia2: how was your no todolist day
[17:25] <pleia2> unproductive!
[17:26] <pleia2> but it was just an evening, and lovely :)
[23:47] <sudormrf> ello


[21:55] <thumper> morning
[21:56] <jelmer> 'morning thumper
[21:59] <lifeless> hi thumper
[22:03]  * thumper has printed out things to think about and heading for coffee


[00:02] <Glamdring> I'm guessing you have nothing to dissuade me of that new conclusion?
[00:02] <holstein> Glamdring: its all open. do what you like
[00:02] <holstein> Glamdring: i would have to know more context to make a suggestion
[00:03]  * Glamdring nods.
[00:04] <Glamdring> Well, I certainly wouldn't want to make my USB controller uselsss as a gamepad. I've seen programs which can opt to "grab" the mouse, but... are they set up to also "grab" the controller?
[00:04] <Glamdring> I'm talking above my pay grade.
[00:06] <Glamdring> (Still, an openness to mistakes is the only way to learn.)
[00:07] <Glamdring> Actually, what context do you need?
[00:11] <holstein> Glamdring: just details.. may already be something doing what you are looking for
[00:12]  * Glamdring nods.
[00:14] <Glamdring> Well, I'd hardly be surprised if there were an appropriate keyboard shortcut. (An extant mouse shortcut would surprise me.) I think I can find a way to look at the configuration of my keyboard shortcuts; it's a file somewhere, and there's no LXDE-native GUI for that, right?
[00:14] <holstein> Glamdring: i usually try and just do the shortcuts in the openbox config files.. so, i havent tried a GUI for that
[00:15]  * Glamdring nods.
[00:15] <holstein> Glamdring: i thought there was one in the menu..
[00:15] <Glamdring> I didn't see one I understood as having it, and one of my Google results seemed to indicate there wasn't a GUI for it.
[00:15]  * Glamdring is really terrible with Google.
[00:16] <holstein> Glamdring: and, things are changing...
[00:16] <Glamdring> Oh? How so?
[00:18] <holstein> Glamdring: lxqt or whatever
[00:18] <holstein> i mean, not like "before your very eyes" or anything.. but, things are moving around a bit
[00:19] <Glamdring> Well, I can't say as I quite understand, but it sounds like you're describing ongoing development decisions, yes?
[00:21] <holstein> Glamdring: upstream.. yes
[00:22] <Glamdring> I'll have to be aware, and perhaps a little wary. :)
[00:22] <holstein> Glamdring: nah.. you can sit on 14.04 for a long time anyways.. if you want
[00:22] <Glamdring> So it would probably be a service to myself to familiarize myself with the openbox config file, right?
[00:22] <Glamdring> Well, hence wariness.
[00:23] <holstein> Glamdring: i dont think it would hurt.. i actually learned a lot from running crunchbang
[00:23] <holstein> Glamdring: i'll still grab those config files and use them in lubuntu or where ever else
[00:23] <Glamdring> Crunchbang?
[00:24] <Glamdring> That's a deliberately disturbing epithet.
[00:24] <ianorlin> that is a distribution
[00:24] <holstein> Glamdring: its another linux distro.. minimal. but, just setup like i would setup the OS..
[00:24] <ianorlin> that uses pure openbox
[00:24] <holstein> Glamdring: the configs are compatible, though.. mostly
[00:25] <Glamdring> I can't say as I really understand openbox yet. In the sense that I don't understand what it encompasses, and what other distros use instead for the same.
[00:25] <Glamdring> But that I'm sure I can wiki.
[00:26] <holstein> Glamdring: i learned a lot from virtualizing.. saved snapshots.. able to reallly tweak and revert
[00:28] <Glamdring> Oh my. That sounds nice. The reversion capability sounds quite crucial...
[00:28] <holstein> you cant necessarily test everything on live CD"s.. though, that is nice too
[00:30] <Glamdring> I've got a couple different distros on CDs right now. I just can't afford a stack of DVDs, so I started looking for things I could use in a pinch. Found LXDE and Lubuntu, read the descriptions, thought I'd give them a shot.
[00:30] <Glamdring> I'm adding my own bloat as time goes on, but it's so gosh darn nice not to start with any.
[00:31] <holstein> i like the base as well
[00:33] <Glamdring> That too. I don't feel like my hands are tied; I simply feel unfamiliar with the tool chest. It's unnerving, but not painful.
[00:33] <Glamdring> It's also a constant reminder that I should be using the command line more.
[00:34] <holstein> Glamdring: i just moved some things to the command line.. but, that was after i had been using the system for a few years, actually
[00:34] <holstein> i moved IRC chat to irssi in screen.. and i would just try and do simple file manipulation there.. cp, cd.. ls.. simple things
[00:35] <holstein> ssh as well.. to get to and maintain other machines
[00:35] <Glamdring> I need to start using screen, really. I mostly just use irssi right off the bat.
[00:35] <holstein> i used weechat for a bit.. and liked it
[00:35] <Glamdring> Is that a command line client?
[00:36] <ianorlin> yes
[00:36]  * Glamdring looks that up, sees the screenshot, smiles.
[00:36] <holstein> !info weechat
[00:36] <Glamdring> I may have to try that...
[00:36] <Glamdring> Heh. And given its size, I highly doubt I'll regret installing it.
[00:38] <Glamdring> Has a few dependencies I lacked. I should learn more about that sea of information.
[00:38] <koell> Glamdring: dont forget to install weechat-plugins as well
[00:39] <Glamdring> Noted
[00:39] <Glamdring> Looks like it came with the package I installed.
[00:44] <Glamdring> Now, holstein, you were saying crunchbang was a good learning experience for you? Would you suggest I give it a shot on some future box of mine?
[00:44] <holstein> Glamdring: well, i use the configs for openbox.. it really just depends on what you are looking for
[00:45] <holstein> it may not do anything you are interested in doing..
[00:45] <Glamdring> Well, one thing I need to learn is to take off the training wheels now and then.
[00:46] <Glamdring> There's a great deal I don't know how to do, fix, or even just maintain.
[00:46] <holstein> and, just be patient with yourself.. sounds like you are doing it right
[00:46] <holstein> Glamdring: keep good backups, since all hard drives fail, and plan for total failure.. on *any* os..
[00:47] <Glamdring> Okay.
[00:47] <Glamdring> So, I'm thinking I should find and print up a good cheat sheet of bash commands, yes?
[00:47] <holstein> if you want..
[00:47] <holstein> or just search as you go
[00:47] <holstein> also, the "history" command..
[00:48] <Glamdring> Searching as I go doesn't seem to stick in my head, though. I often seem to forget the command and have to search for it again.
[00:48] <Glamdring> I'm hoping for something which more reliably sticks once I learn it.
[00:50] <Glamdring> Any suggestions?
[00:50] <holstein> when you use them more, it'll just happen
[00:51]  * Glamdring sighs.
[00:51] <Glamdring> Been at this a couple years and I haven't used the command line enough to be comfortable.  CLI
[00:52] <Glamdring> I mean, right now my major task is trying to share folders between two boxen.
[00:52] <Glamdring> Probably not the best place to start.
[00:52] <holstein> so, ssh, and scp
[00:52] <holstein> scp whatever you want from one machine to the other..
[00:52] <holstein> or, setup samba in nano in the terminal.
[00:53] <Glamdring> Holy crap. What's nano?
[00:53] <holstein> !info nano
[00:53] <Glamdring> (That sounds a lot harder to wiki.)
[00:53] <holstein> just a simple CLI text editor..
[00:53] <holstein> its more my speed :)
[00:53] <Glamdring> Oh! Right.
[00:53] <Glamdring> Shazbot, I should have remembered that.
[00:54] <Glamdring> scp = secure copy?
[00:55] <holstein> its a way you can move files between machine in the command line
[00:55] <Glamdring> Oh. And here I thought I'd found it.
[00:56] <Glamdring> The Wikipedia page on secure copy seemed like it fit the bill. What's the difference?
[00:56] <holstein> Glamdring: the difference in what?
[00:57] <Glamdring> Between the scp you're talking about and the secure copy the Wikipedia page is talking about.
[00:57] <holstein> they are likely the same
[00:57] <Glamdring> Oh. Okay.
[00:58] <Glamdring> Sorry, learning as I go. Trying to improve my google-fu while I'm at it, too.
[00:59] <Glamdring> Folks tend to get kinda pissed when you ask questions you could look up instead.
[00:59] <holstein> ubuntu community can be a little more loose and forgiving.
[01:00]  * Glamdring nods.
[01:00] <Glamdring> Anyway, I'm apt to return to this at some point, but right now I think I'm going to go lay down. Been fighting a migraine all day.
[01:01] <Glamdring> If that doesn't work out, maybe more Fallout.
[01:03] <Glamdring> Thank you. I'll make a cheat sheet and put it on the desktop background. That sounds like a really good idea, and one I'll use a lot.
[01:04] <holstein> Glamdring: good luck.. i just downloaded mine, BTW.. there is a tshirt as well, with them upside down on it ;)
[01:04] <Glamdring> HA! Wish I could afford that!
[01:04] <holstein> well.. the background will be fre..
[01:04] <holstein> free*
[01:04] <Glamdring> When you say "I just downloaded mine," you don't mean "just" as in "a moment ago," do you?
[01:04] <Glamdring> 'Cause if so, I would dig a URL. I just doubt it's the case.
[01:05] <holstein> no.. i mean, i didnt make it..
[01:05] <Glamdring> I thought as much. The sentence reads both ways sans inflection, so it was worth asking.
[01:05] <Glamdring> I'm'a go look up a cheat sheet. Again, thank you! I'm sure I'll be back in here soon.
[01:05] <holstein> this was it though
[01:05] <holstein> http://i.imgur.com/1c9y0.png
[01:06] <Glamdring> Oh jebus, thank you.
[01:06] <Glamdring> Wow. Dense. But awesome.
[01:06] <Glamdring> Thank you. I'm off.
[05:17] <firebb> why i need to set "Light Locker" every time I login to disable screen lock?
[06:25] <maven> Help needed with Lubuntu. Planning to install in 150 systems.
[12:52] <__unik> hello. How can I make LXterminal realy transperency?
[12:55] <zy3pD> __unik, i think you could only make it transparent so you see the background
[12:55] <__unik> zy3pD no, I want to see the behind window
[12:55] <__unik> not the background
[12:55] <zy3pD> __unik, maybe with other termianl or composite mgr
[12:56] <__unik> zy3pD yeah so How can I do with compto
[12:56] <__unik> compton
[12:56] <__unik> thanks
[12:56] <zy3pD> __unik, i think you could do this yourself, but its Lubuntu! it must be a bit minimalisic ;-)
[12:57] <testdr> __unik: you change the background-color transparency
[12:57] <__unik> testdr: changing the opacity only helped me see the background
[12:57] <__unik> not behind window one
[12:58] <testdr> __unik: thats what zy3pD already tried to explain - those things are only fake-look-thru
[12:59] <__unik> well I am trying to make a real-look
[12:59] <__unik> lol
[12:59] <testdr> __unik: you have to use a windowmanager, that will not only provide background, it must have the possibility to provide different background for each window depending on what other things are behind
[13:01] <testdr> __unik: cause LXDE (and openbox) should run on low-power-graphics-devices, this is not possible.
[13:02] <zy3pD> testdr, it is possible but it doesn't make sence __unik!
[13:02] <zy3pD> testdr, do you speak german?
[13:03] <testdr> zy3pD: yep - ma english may suspect it
[13:04] <zy3pD> testdr, nö geht schon aber ich glaub ich hatte dich schonma in #ubuntu-de-offtopic gesehen deshalb
[16:06] <just4humans> hi all
[16:06] <holstein> o/
[16:06] <bollullera> \o/
[16:16] <zy3pD> does anybody cares about this bug: when i use 2 monitors on the first the desktop contexttmenu is the normal one but on the secound he shows the ob menu
[16:19] <testdr> zy3pD: maybe i would care about, can you buy me a second flatscreen? -- sing: Oh Lord -- would you buy me -- a flatscreen TV -.-
[16:22] <zy3pD> testdr, ich würde dir gerne helfen, aber ich kann dir grad keinen monitor abgeben, hab selbst nur 5 ^^
[16:22] <testdr> sing along: My friends all have quad-cores -- i must make amends!
[16:23] <testdr> zy3pD: LXDE(openbox) kennt Einstellungen was der primäre Bildschirm sein soll - und dann gibt es noch die feste X11-conf Einstellungen
[16:25] <testdr> !sorry forgot - speak english here!
[16:25] <zy3pD> hehe
[16:26] <testdr> LXDE(openbox) has settings what screen/desktop is the primary one or if every should be treated the same
[16:33] <ianorlin> zy3pD: zy3pD which version of lubuntu are you on?
[16:33] <ianorlin> That is actaully better than having it show no menu at all on right click
[16:39] <zy3pD> which version: my first lubuntu was 13.04 ... since 13.04 ^^ (now on 14.04.1)
[16:55] <zh1> http://lubuntu.net/tags/upgrade video links on this link are down
[16:55] <zh1> sirs whats the proper comando to upgrade lubuntu to next release sudo do-release-upgrade?
[16:56] <zh1> *comand
[16:56] <wxl> zh1: add the -d switch
[16:56] <zh1> like sudo do-release-upgrade -d ?
[16:58] <wxl> zh1: yep
[17:00] <zh1> wxl any more thing?
[17:01] <wxl> zh1: nope
[17:02] <zh1> apt-get and aptitude on lubuntu are never used to upgrade on lubuntu?
[17:02] <wxl> zh1: do-release-upgrade, like those two, are a front end to dpkg (plus some other stuff)
[17:02] <zh1> ah ok
[17:02] <wxl> s/are/is/
[17:03] <zh1> wxl thanks, gonna give this info to my friend to update system
[17:04] <wxl> zh1: note there has to be an upgrade path
[17:05] <wxl> e.g. 9.04 → 14.10 ain't going to work :)
[17:05] <zh1> but from 13.10 to 14.10 will?
[17:05] <zh1> i think he has 13.10
[17:06] <wxl> anything on the EoL list (including 13.10) is going to be a problem https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
[17:06] <wxl> there are upgrade paths between LTS releases (10.04 → 12.04 for example)
[17:06] <wxl> but not EoL LTS releases
[17:07] <wxl> here's how https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades
[17:07] <wxl> total pain in the butt!
[17:07] <zh1> wxl if it doesnt work the command will just fail, right?
[17:07] <zh1> so i can try it ?
[17:07] <wxl> yep
[17:08] <wxl> if i remember correctly it is possible to use the installer to upgrade
[17:08] <zh1> i was checking those releases maybe its not 13.10
[17:08] <zh1> i know i installed the system around march this year
[17:10] <zh1> ah no, there is one 13.10
[17:41] <ianorlin> zh1 intsalling lts may be better for people that don't really keep track of support windows
[20:22] <genii> !purelxde


[16:37] <arosales> mramm: do you guys have a juju-tools tar ball for 1.9.11 that I can use to make a control buck on HP's cloud?
[18:05] <mramm> arosales: sorry, was in a meeting and then went to lunch without seeing your message, looking...
[18:06] <arosales> mramm: thanks
[21:42] <arosales> mramm, I found http://juju-dist.s3.amazonaws.com/tools/juju-1.9.11-precise-amd64.tgz
[21:43] <mramm> cool
[21:43] <mramm> I am at the airport waiting for my flight, and haven't had time to look
[21:43] <mramm> I added two new tickets:
[21:43]  * arosales is going to see if that works for hp, and if so send my notes to the list.
[21:44] <mramm> one for adding HP and private openstack cloud's to our "tools just work" story.
[21:49] <arosales> mramm, hmm I don't see those yet @ http://goo.gl/ but perhaps I am looking at the wrong search
[21:50] <mramm> https://canonical.leankit.com/boards/view/103148069/104185973
[21:50] <mramm> https://canonical.leankit.com/boards/view/103148069/104185972
[21:50] <mramm> I do not expect them to be done this week
[21:51] <mramm> but hopefully next week before 1.9.12
[21:52] <mramm> I will get them estimated and on the calendar this week -- but I expect that they will both be small
[21:57] <arosales> mramm, ah ok I was looking for an lp bug.  Thanks
[21:58] <mramm> yea, we are using LP for features users ask for, and for actual bugs
[21:58] <mramm> but are tracking everyday development tasks and internally generated stuff on the kanban board (which is a better fit for our team's processes)
[22:34] <arosales> question: should "juju destroy-environment" also remove my control bucket in go-juju 1.9.11?
[22:51] <wallyworld__> arosales: yes, the control bucket gets deleted
[22:53] <arosales> wallyworld__, hmm ok
[22:53] <wallyworld__> not what you were expecting?
[22:55] <arosales> wallyworld__, I guess not as I manually made the control bucket, but perhaps that is a work around . . .
[22:56] <wallyworld__> arosales: yes, normally the control bucket gets made automatically and is considered part of the environment, you needed to make it manually since we dont yet have a well defined public bucket in which to put tools like for ec2
[22:57] <arosales> wallyworld__, ya for ec2 I don't see the deleting control bucket message
[22:57] <arosales> on destroy-environment, thta is.
[22:57] <arosales> just for hpcloud
[22:58] <wallyworld__> arosales: for ec2, the control bucket is deleted also, perhaps the logging is different
[22:58] <wallyworld__> hmm, same logging
[22:59] <arosales> wallyworld__, ah ok. perhaps cause I got a failed to delete control-bucket message from hp
[22:59] <arosales> although it did delte
[22:59] <arosales> *delete
[22:59] <wallyworld__> that can happen sometimes according to a comment in the code
[22:59] <wallyworld__> not sure why
[22:59] <wallyworld__> we should fix that
[22:59] <arosales> wallyworld__, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5606299/
[23:00] <wallyworld__> thanks, that error code is useful, i'll see what the openstack docs say
[23:01] <wallyworld__> we may be able to catch that specific error and deal with it
[23:01] <wallyworld__> so, even with that error, the container was indeed deleted?
[23:01] <arosales> wallyworld__, since on hp cloud the control bucket has to be manually do you have any suggestions for a workaround if juju destroy-environment deletes?
[23:01] <arosales> wallyworld__, correct with that error the control bucket was still deleted.
[23:02] <wallyworld__> arosales: i normally just do a upload-tools each time i bootstrap, but i'm guessing you don't have the source to do that?
[23:02] <arosales> wallyworld__, it looks like the compute instances were also terminated, which is good as I wasn't able to sucessfully process juju destroy-environment on hp cloud
[23:03] <wallyworld__> yes, destroy nukes compute nodes and control bucket
[23:03] <arosales> wallyworld__, correct, I was trying to get around building from source, but perhaps I should just go the source route
[23:04] <arosales> wallyworld__, sure I was just wondering if the error on deleting the control-bucket stopped terminating the compute instances.
[23:04] <wallyworld__> arosales: you can create a separate bucket and add it to the config as public-bucket-url. i'll work up an example and tell you what the correct config is
[23:04] <arosales> but it did not, compute instances were also terminated (just as a side note).
[23:04] <wallyworld__> arosales: what's your timezone there, will you be around for a bit?
[23:04] <arosales> us central
[23:05] <arosales> so getting close to end of day for me.
[23:05] <wallyworld__> arosales: the bucket deletion is done last, and error is ignore as such
[23:05] <arosales> wallyworld__, good to know on destroying the resources, thanks.
[23:05] <wallyworld__> arosales: would it be ok if i emailed you the setup notes?
[23:05] <arosales> wallyworld__, no rush.  an email works fine for an example.
[23:05] <wallyworld__> i'll do it now, but not sure how long it will take to get right
[23:05] <arosales> no worries, just if you have a spare moment.
[23:05] <wallyworld__> need to spin it up to test etc
[23:06] <arosales> wallyworld__, I can make a public URL control bucket
[23:07] <arosales> wallyworld__, https://region-a.geo-1.objects.hpcloudsvc.com:443/v1/49578719334052/juju-6de995f1bc7f4d72a1275f25f7a1ef1a/tools/juju-1.9.11-precise-amd64.tgz
[23:07] <wallyworld__> not quite - when we decide how/where to make a public bucket available with all the tools in (like for ec2), you add public-bucket-url as a config item
[23:07] <wallyworld__> in the above axample, you add something like @public-bucket-url: https://region-a.geo-1.objects.hpcloudsvc.com:443/v1/49578719334052/juju-6de995f1bc7f4d72a1275f25f7a1ef1a@ to your yaml
[23:08] <wallyworld__> s/@/"
[23:08] <wallyworld__> so long as the bucket is one you made manually and is separate to your control bucket, you put tools there and it won't be deleted
[23:09] <arosales> wallyworld__, ok I can give that a try
[23:11] <wallyworld__> arosales: the issue with openstack is that the url contains the tenant id, unlike ec2, and we need to figure out a good way to publicise an acceptable public bucket url
[23:12] <arosales> wallyworld__, yup http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5606323/
[23:12] <arosales> I ran into that
[23:12] <wallyworld__> arosales: public-bucket-url
[23:13] <wallyworld__> not public-control-bucket
[23:13] <arosales> sorry I had "public-control-bucket"
[23:13] <wallyworld__> np
[23:17] <arosales> wallyworld__, do I need to specify the tools path in the url I pass to my yaml file?
[23:17] <arosales> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5606337/
[23:18] <wallyworld__> arosales: let me check
[23:21] <arosales> wallyworld__, trying with appending /tools and /tools/juju-1.9.11-precise-amd64.tgz didn't help the finding the tools
[23:22] <wallyworld__> arosales: juju appends "tools" automatically to the public bucket url. at first glance, what you have seems correct.
[23:22] <wallyworld__> arosales: are you running quantal locally?
[23:23] <arosales> wallyworld__, correct
[23:23] <arosales> running quantal locally
[23:23] <wallyworld__> arosales: so you need default-series: precise in your yaml
[23:23] <wallyworld__> to tell juju to not just try and use the same series and you are running locally
[23:23] <arosales> yup got that     default-series: precise
[23:24] <wallyworld__> oh ok, and still failing
[23:24] <arosales> wallyworld__, I got juju to work on hpcloud with this control bucket just had the removal of the control-bucket which I was seeing if I could make easier for other folks wishing to test on hpcloud
[23:26] <wallyworld__> arosales: it would be better if we could just point folks at a public bucket, even if it has a tenant id in it (imho). i'll plug in your bucket above into my setup and see what i need to do to get it to work
[23:26] <arosales> wallyworld__, no worries, seems the way forward is to build from source
[23:26] <wallyworld__> i'd like to get this working ie it should work
[23:27] <wallyworld__> i'll figure out what needs to be done and let you know, may only take a few minutes so i'll ping you if you are still around, otherwise email
[23:27] <arosales> ya, I was hoping to give my public bucket to others to test, if they wish for an easier setup . .  .
[23:27] <arosales> wallyworld__, sounds good.
[23:27] <arosales> please don't let this pre-empt any of your more critical work though :-)
[23:27] <wallyworld__> indeed. this should work, it's been tested before, just a doc issue i think unless something has broken
[23:27] <wallyworld__> oh no, to me this is critical
[23:28] <wallyworld__> you are the first guinea pig to try this. we only just got it working last week with the control bucket trivk
[23:28] <wallyworld__> trick
[23:29] <arosales> wallyworld__, ok, thanks.
[23:29] <arosales> wallyworld__, I am happy to test or write up bugs, just let me know :-)
[23:29] <wallyworld__> thanks. appreciate your patience
[23:30] <arosales> ah no worries, part of the fun :-)
[23:30] <wallyworld__> yes. we were so exciting last thurday when "juju deploy" wordpress worked for the first time on hp cloud :-)
[23:31] <arosales> yup I also saw it working here with the control bucket removal
[23:31] <arosales> \o/ :-)
[23:32] <wallyworld__> indeed
[23:36] <arosales> wallyworld__, I'll take a look at email tonight, but need to log off for a bit.
[23:36] <arosales> wallyworld__, thanks for the help
[23:36] <wallyworld__> sure, np. will email as soon as i figure it out.


[00:03] <Lledargo> Lots of food too. I didn't eat breakfast today had Zehnders for lunch and I am still not hungry.
[00:03] <Lledargo> Or rather I am still full.
[04:26] <snap-l> Ho boy
[04:26] <snap-l> Just watched two pseudo-science shows on alien astronauts.
[04:27] <snap-l> Theory is that because ancient civilizations have weird figurines that look like modern astronauts, and because they did things that we can't comprehend, there must be alien involvement with our development
[04:29] <snap-l> Favorites were that the pyramids were apparently designed to transmit a microwave beam to a satellite
[04:29] <snap-l> and that the "mana from heaven" was actually created by a machine that would have likely killed anyone that used it
[04:29] <snap-l> because it irradiated algae, and acted like a still
[04:29] <snap-l> and needed to be cleaned at least once a week.
[08:14] <TeamXlink> I'm going to build an eight computer cluster, they are all Pentium III pcs with 256mb, I'm curious to what this cluster could be used for, I'm doing it for the heck of it, a because I can, so I can say I did it type of thing. Could this be useful though?
[15:24] <brousch> oh this is nice http://software.opensuse.org/
[15:29] <snap-l> Neato
[15:29] <brousch> that's their ISO download page, btw
[15:30] <snap-l> I gathered.
[18:09] <jcastro> hey snap-l
[18:09] <jcastro> I am all set for tuesday
[18:57] <brousch> jcastro_: when do you move to FL?
[18:57] <jcastro_> end o jully
[19:10] <snap-l> jcastro_: Got a ride?
[19:11] <jcastro_> I have my car still
[19:11] <snap-l> Ah, cool
[19:11] <jcastro_> but I can chip in on a carpool if you want
[19:11] <snap-l> (how does that work? :))
[19:13] <snap-l> So you don't need a ride to MUG, jcastro_ ?
[19:13] <jcastro_> I can go either way!
[19:14] <jcastro_> if you want to go eat or something
[19:14] <snap-l> Was going to hang out afterward to go eat
[19:14] <snap-l> So if you still want me to come get you, that's fine
[19:14] <snap-l> I'm borrowing my dad's car
[19:15] <jcastro_> ok
[19:15] <jcastro_> that would also remind me to come. :)
[19:15] <jcastro_> some days I forget to even eat lunch, heh
[19:15] <snap-l> OK, I'll come get you, then
[19:15] <jcastro_> does the car have metal capability?
[19:15] <jcastro_> ie. can we rock out?
[19:16] <snap-l> It has a tape deck and an adapter
[19:16] <snap-l> It's a Mercury Sable
[19:16] <snap-l> But yes, full metal is capable in that car.
[20:27] <snap-l> Whew.
[20:27] <snap-l> I've been adding albums to Musicbrainz
[20:27] <snap-l> hopefully, by the time I'm done with this, I'll have everything in my collection in Musicbrainz
[20:28] <snap-l> <- part of the solution. :)
[20:32]  * Lledargo is not part of the solution appearantly
[20:33] <Lledargo> I tried to add stuff to Musicbrainz, and then my wireless conection died
[20:35] <Lledargo> I was not happy, as the album I attempted to add was from a bunch of artist that hadn't been added to the site yet so alot of work had been put in to my enry
[20:35] <Lledargo> s/enry/entry
[20:41] <snap-l> Yeah, that's a pain
[23:43] <brousch> dangit, now slashdot is down http://apple.slashdot.org/story/11/06/12/1639258/Apple-Sued-Over-Use-of-iCloud-Name
[23:59] <rick_h_> works here


[02:15] <pleia2> ok, finally got through news feeds and planet to add a bunch of stuff to the doc
[02:49] <akgraner> pleia2, thanks!
[02:49] <akgraner> I'll work on summaries tomorrow
[04:10] <pleia2> added https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/October2011 to the issue so I don't forget later
[04:13] <pleia2> and created November2011 page while I was at it ;)


[00:29] <WaVeR> Hi Folks
[00:29] <WaVeR> Anyone from the loco council ?
[00:31] <WaVeR> @kyrofa>  nhaines meetingology since now 1 week we're still waiting for our Launchapd request ( http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-02-12-20.04.log.html#173 Provisional 1 month extension for SwissTeam and move application process to Launchpad. )
[00:32] <WaVeR> So please try to create the request/bug before laughing in our approval request
[00:32] <WaVeR> Seems that the loco council is not able to handle request as before and he's not caring about old loco team. it's not our first approval in case .....
[00:33] <WaVeR> I waited 1 week before asking. As I also request from you multiple times to delay our approval request
[00:33] <WaVeR> regardsm
[00:33] <WaVeR> regards,
[00:34] <WaVeR> @tribaal>  ping for our request
[00:39] <WaVeR> I'm sorry but I want to talk give my opinion about the loco council, please don't forget that maybe some loco teams exist before you know about ubuntu so don't laugh about any re-approval. If you don't agree with it...
[00:39] <wxl> WaVeR: why aren't you emailing the mailing list?
[00:40] <WaVeR> wxl>  because the loco council use the irc channel to laugh
[00:40] <WaVeR> so let's make it clear for all of us
[00:40] <wxl> WaVeR: then if you're trying to complain about the loco council, why don't you contact the community-council?
[00:40] <wxl> rarely do people actually pay attention to this channel. you're mostly talking to yourself.
[00:41] <WaVeR> I use the same communication channel as them. If they complain about our re-approval; I can also complain about the delay to create the launchpad entry no ?
[00:41] <WaVeR> wxl>  everything is logged
[00:41] <wxl> you can, but i'm suggesting the way you're doing it is ineffective
[00:42] <wxl> that said, if you're insistent on speaking to the wind, feel free
[00:42] <wxl> but if you want to actually complain about something that will result in a reasonable response, i would contact the community council. that's what it's for.
[00:45] <WaVeR> wxl>  they also talk only here without sending any feedback via email/ML so let's do it the same way as they do and see who can follow the logs ツ  !
[00:45] <wxl> WaVeR: you're on your own, then.
[00:47] <WaVeR> wxl>  yep but evidence will be my ally
[00:47] <WaVeR> why I should complain if they agree that they should create a launchpad entry
[00:48] <WaVeR> I'm waiting and asking them to create it
[00:48] <WaVeR> it's just sad that I vote for some people to be on the loco council and they don't do any difference between teams that exist since years and new teams