[00:00] <Nomkid> You might want to explain what cups is, and how to check if it's enabled/enable it
[00:00] <Nomkid> I would, but I have no idea :P
[00:01] <mparillo> Not sure I have good *buntu docs, but I would start here: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/CUPS
[00:09] <mparillo> so systemctl status will get you all your units, and you should see cups in the list, then you can narrow it down by matching, e.g. systemctl status cups.service
[00:10] <mparillo> Or something similar based on how old your Kubuntu installation is.
[00:10] <mparillo> It was renamed recently.
[00:12] <mparillo> Short version: If cups is not running the KDE printer utility could not find my wifi HP printer.
[00:13] <Nomkid> speaking of connection problems
[00:13] <Nomkid> I tried KDE Connect just for funsies one day, both my phone and laptop can't find each other
[00:13] <Nomkid> At first I thought I wasn't going to use it, but now that I *can't* use it, I want to use it
[00:14] <Nomkid> Any ideas why they refuse to connect?
[00:24] <mparillo> I have never used it, but you are more likely to get help during the day European time / morning Canadian time, when more helpful people are about. You could also try #kde (also European day time is probably better) or the KDE forums (e.g. https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=139460)
[00:43] <Nomkid> Well that just means I gotta get on here tomorrow morning ;)
[01:10] <Dragnslcr> Nomkid- I use KDE Connect a lot, and yeah, sometimes the devices just don't connect correctly
[01:10] <Nomkid> I mean, it's not just sometimes for me
[01:10] <Nomkid> It's literally always
[01:11] <Dragnslcr> Best I've been able to do is remove/add the phone from the computer's KDE Connect settings, and sometimes reboot the phone
[01:11] <Nomkid> oh rebooting, hadn't thought of that
[01:11] <Dragnslcr> Make sure that your wireless router is configured to let devices see each other?
[01:12] <Dragnslcr> That's a common security setting in routers
[01:12] <Nomkid> I am not the manager of the AP here
[01:12] <Nomkid> ooh netsplit
[01:13] <Dragnslcr> Are you on a work (or similar) network?
[01:22] <Nomkid> I guess you could call it a work network
[01:22] <Nomkid> but yes
[01:38] <Dragnslcr> You could try pinging your phone from the computer. Your phone's network settings should have the IP address listed.
[01:39] <Nomkid> ping works
[01:40] <Nomkid> wait nope
[01:41] <Nomkid> like two went though, but now the AP is filtering them all
[01:41] <Nomkid> so, yeah I guess you're right
[03:46] <jaime> irc://icq.com/icqchat
[03:53] <tomreyn> jaime: are we spamming?
[11:00] <BluesKaj> Howdy folks
 @Anarchotaoist, I went the route of restoring a Redo Rescue image and then restoring a more recent BackInTime backup. All back running well so far!
[14:14] <crb999> Hi All, Hope this is the right place to post my problem!
[14:54] <Pancrazio> Hello, i'm using kubuntu 20.10, after upgrade to 5.8.0-45 amd64 kernel my bluetooth doesn't work anymore. My pc is an iMac late 2010
[17:34] <moxie12> hi, so um, i had a secondary drive dislodge from its sata connection and now my main drive kubuntu install won't boot, even after boot-repair from a livedisk. And even a fresh install won't boot, but I can see the filesystem of my main install
[17:38] <moxie12> okay I fixed my secondary install
[20:17] <mystic> Hi
[20:26] <mystic> kubuntu or mx linux?   lubuntu gone down the pan  these days
 hello everyone, who can help with krfb?
[22:31] <tomreyn> brud90: i can't, but make sure you ask a more specific question
[22:32] <tomreyn> i.e. describe the problem, the kubuntu version you'r eusing etc.
 tomreyn: sorry, kubuntu 20.10 with last updates and kernel, the problem is that after install krfb works fine, but only in local network, i try to reinstall it, and for now i can run it only from shell and sudo priveleges, and when i try to connect i have error "password incorrect" but it's correct
 4131


[01:32] <louieb> hello
[06:56] <ara> good morning!
[08:28] <davmor2> morning all
[14:08] <davmor2> fader_: Morning dude
[14:08] <fader_> davmor2: Howdy
[14:08] <davmor2> Wubi is still broken but slightly differently :)
[14:08] <fader_> How's tricks?
[14:09] <davmor2> may also effect live installs
[14:09] <fader_> davmor2: I think you've been replaced by a simple script :)
[14:09] <fader_> while(true) { if (fader_logged_on) print "wubi is broken" }
[14:09] <fader_> :)
[14:09] <davmor2> :)
[14:10] <davmor2> it's getting there though
[14:10] <davmor2> might be a respin after to see if that fixes it yay
[14:22] <fader_> Heh
[15:20] <davmor2> cr3: Morning Dude
[15:20] <cr3> davmor2: yo mama
[15:21] <davmor2> cr3: have you been getting a lot of fails from live cd installs?
[15:22] <cr3> davmor2: I've been getting some weirdness from live cds indeed, but I haven't had time to look into 'em
[15:24] <davmor2> cr3: don't worry I think cjwatson and evand are a step ahead of you dude.  Installer lock yesterday was one fault and todays is a ever so slightly different one ;)
[15:26] <davmor2> cr3: they are looking into now.  When they find the fix, they will hopefully respin.
[15:56] <abgalphabet> how to test karmic beta booting?
[16:02] <abgalphabet> boot karmic beta on virtualbox, and see some problem during boot, should i report it as bug?
[16:03] <davmor2> abgalphabet: there is a problem on the current cd's it is known about and being worked on :)
[16:09] <davmor3> hey fader_ at least alternate still work ;)
[16:10] <fader_> Heh
[16:29] <davmor3> O:-)
[16:30] <davmor3> >:-)
[16:39]  * davmor2 wishes I could set left the room message as crap empathy crashed again
[17:58] <ara> QA meeting in 2 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting
[20:14] <cgregan> eeejay: ping
[20:14] <eeejay> hey cgregan
[20:14] <cgregan> hey eeejay
[20:15] <cgregan> along the lines of our conversation yesterday....what would you list as the qualifications required to be a prosperous hacker of Accessability/LDTP automation?
[20:15] <cgregan> Language wise
[20:15] <cgregan> and anything else you can think of
[20:17] <eeejay> cgregan, i think a lot of the boilerplate descriptions that you guys have for devs is a good start. like "gnome technologies"
[20:18] <cgregan> eeejay: any languages specifically? Just python?
[20:18] <eeejay> cgregan, experience with pyatspi
[20:18] <cgregan> excellent....
[20:19] <eeejay> cgregan, if the person will also be fitting shiny new clutter apps for automation, than C
[20:19] <eeejay> s/than/then/
[20:19] <cgregan> ah...good to know
[20:19] <eeejay> with experience wit ATK
[20:20] <cgregan> Is LDTP in C as well?
[20:39] <eeejay> cgregan, i recently rewrote it in python :)
[20:40] <cgregan> eeejay: great!
[23:35] <metalf8801> can I install/remove more then one program at a time with Ubuntu software Center? Like I could in Add/remove?


[00:03] <_mup_> ensemble/ensemble-resolved r247 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[00:03] <_mup_> more resolved cli tests
[01:13] <_mup_> ensemble/resolved-state-api r194 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:13] <_mup_> use new dict merging utility func, and allow non conflicting updates to relation resolved settings.
[01:34] <_mup_> ensemble/ensemble-resolved r249 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:34] <_mup_> complete additional tests for resolved cli
[01:36] <_mup_> Bug #767948 was filed: ensemble resolved command is needed to recover from errors <Ensemble:In Progress by hazmat> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/767948 >
[01:50] <_mup_> Bug #767955 was filed: cli needs beautifcation <Ensemble:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/767955 >
[02:02] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk-merge r187 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[02:02] <_mup_> add a resolved spec
[02:04] <_mup_> ensemble/resolved-spec r187 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[02:04] <_mup_> add resolved spec
[02:05] <_mup_> Bug #767961 was filed: unit agent needs support for resolving units and unit relations <Ensemble:New for hazmat> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/767961 >
[02:05] <_mup_> Bug #767964 was filed: ensemble resolved spec/user doc for working with errors <Ensemble:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/767964 >
[04:40] <_mup_> ensemble/refactor-to-yamlstate r196 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[04:40] <_mup_> Hook context's relation settings -> YAMLState
[06:57] <_mup_> ensemble/config-get r200 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[06:57] <_mup_> YAMLState changes
[12:50] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk-merge r187 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:50] <_mup_> merge trunk
[12:53] <_mup_> ensemble/resolved-spec r189 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[12:53] <_mup_> additional doc text regarding --retry
[12:54] <kim0> hey folks o/
[12:54] <kim0> I'm trying to launch ensemble now, and every time the ec2 instance fails to boot (becomes terminated) ?!
[12:55] <kim0> I think a new natty image was pushed yesterday right ? it seems to have problems
[13:06] <kim0> hazmat: you mentioned the natty image, right
[13:51] <hazmat> kim0, sorry its not committed
[13:52] <hazmat> i got caught up in working on ensemble resolved
[13:52] <hazmat> looking at it now
[13:52] <hazmat> kim0, which makes your problems more interesting
[13:52] <hazmat> kim0, actually there is an ec2 problem in the default region
[13:52] <hazmat> kim0, they where having problems both with ebs and ec2
[13:53] <hazmat> kim0, for http://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/gdn3d/express_go_jit_implementation_of_go/
[13:53] <hazmat> as an example
[13:53] <hazmat> http://status.aws.amazon.com/
[13:53] <hazmat> you can change the default region in the environments.yaml under the provider
[13:55] <kim0> hazmat: oh thanks
[13:56] <_mup_> Bug #768311 was filed: txaws deprecation warnings from elementree with ensemble usage <Ensemble:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/768311 >
[13:58] <_mup_> ensemble/unit-agent-resolved r251 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[13:58] <_mup_> unit and unit relation resolved watch callbacks.
[14:02] <hazmat> hmm.. lame the txaws only supports two regions
[14:02] <hazmat> EU and US
[14:04] <kim0> yeah
[14:04] <kim0> still failing though
[14:04] <kim0> wonder if  us-east = North vigina
[14:07] <hazmat> kim0, it does
[14:07] <hazmat> kim0, hmm. the other problem is we only have images published in that region..
[14:07] <hazmat> ec2-uri: https://ec2.us-west-1.amazonaws.com
[14:07] <hazmat> that works as a syntax to talk to other regions but since we're not multi publishing them yet.. its kinda of moot
[14:07] <kim0> yeah .. so I'll wait a bit I guess
[14:07] <hazmat> hmmm
[14:08] <kim0> so much for cloud :)
[14:08] <hazmat> i can publish an image in another region, but we don't select internally based on region atm
[14:08] <hazmat> ie. it would need a specification of the image id as well
[14:10] <_mup_> Bug #768320 was filed: ensemble should support more ec2 regions <Ensemble:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/768320 >
[14:26] <hazmat> kim0, nice article about the other sites down as a result ... http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/04/21/amazon-ec2-goes-down-taking-with-it-reddit-foursquare-and-quora/
[14:34] <kim0> 4 hours and the amazon folks are still scrambling .. it's a shame
[15:08] <hazmat> hmmm.. can't cut new images most of the daily amis  aren't resolvable correctly.
[16:35] <SpamapS> Have we considered taking over txaws?
[16:35] <SpamapS> Or at least ... inserting ensemble as a giant influence in its development?
[16:38] <hazmat> SpamapS, we haven't made the time for it, its really there for anyone who wants it
[16:38] <hazmat> jamu's been doing some work on it recently and going through old bug reports
[16:39] <SpamapS> Thats good
[16:39] <SpamapS> maybe a release soon?
[16:39]  * SpamapS feels like a broken record
[16:39] <jimbaker> SpamapS, agreed that having a txaws release would be a good thing
[16:39] <SpamapS> In Canonical, if you don't have a cadence, you just don't release. ;)
[16:40] <jimbaker> :)
[16:40] <hazmat> i've got ensemble images in a few more regions, almost done getting region support working in ensemble
[16:44] <SpamapS> at this point txaws is a blocker for a) working on natty w/o warnings (my bad for silently fixing that on my box and not patching the package.. oops!), b) working w/ eucalyptus and openstack ... anything else?
[16:51] <hazmat> SpamapS, b) has been fixed in txaws
[16:51] <hazmat> the warning thing is being worked on
[16:52] <kim0> did anyone test ensemble against openstack yet
[16:52] <hazmat> kim0, just uec afaik
[16:52] <SpamapS> hazmat: is that fix released?
[16:52] <kim0> hazmat: and uec works
[16:52] <kim0> ?
[16:52] <SpamapS> chuck and I tried it against openstack
[16:52] <SpamapS> same fail as eucalyptus
[16:53] <kim0> ah so both fail
[16:53] <SpamapS> s3
[16:53] <SpamapS> It sounds like there's a patch
[16:53] <kim0> how hard is it to fix that
[16:53] <hazmat> SpamapS, no release, its committed to trunk
[16:53] <SpamapS> hazmat: good enough for me, lets get that into the package. :)
[16:54] <hazmat> kim0, the issues you where having with txaws are also fixed.
[16:54] <kim0> hazmat: the logging ?
[16:54] <hazmat> kim0, no.. the initial setup, where we had to do a non head revision of txaws to get things working.
[16:55] <kim0> ah ok
[16:55] <hazmat> kim0, there are branches in review from gustavo on both the logging issues
[16:55]  * kim0 nods
[16:55] <TeTeT> so there will be a packaged release of ensemble soon?
[16:55] <kim0> hazmat: just to be clear, you're saying with txaws trunk, we can deploy ensemble versus uec/openstack sucessfully ?
[16:56] <hazmat> TeTeT, i think we're going to have a daily ppa. if i remember the plan correctly, and then universe hopefully in 11.10
[17:00] <_mup_> Bug #768424 was filed: Setup a launchpad daily ppa recipe for ensemble and some deps <Ensemble:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/768424 >
[17:00] <SpamapS> TeTeT: ppa:ensemble/ppa exists now :)
[17:00] <SpamapS> TeTeT: for lucid and natty
[17:01] <TeTeT> SpamapS: wow, it works on lucid too?
[17:05] <TeTeT> great, just installed on a vm, now trying to connect it to the training UEC :)
[17:06] <TeTeT> how would I configure environment.yaml for my UEC cloud?
[17:06] <hazmat> TeTeT, ec2_uri and s3_uri
[17:07] <SpamapS> TeTeT: that won't work until we update txaws in the PPA
[17:07] <hazmat> but i don't think txaws is in that ppa, of which something recent from trunk is needed.
[17:07] <SpamapS> maybe we should make that happen.. :)
[17:07] <hazmat> SpamapS, is that a daily build recipe ppa?
[17:07] <SpamapS> hazmat: definitely not .. its the one I've tested.
[17:07] <TeTeT> SpamapS: ah, ok, will postpone the test then
[17:08] <SpamapS> hazmat: I think an  ensemble/daily would be the place for daily builds
[17:08] <SpamapS> hazmat: basically the one in the PPA is the demo-able version
[17:09] <hazmat> SpamapS, sounds good
[17:30] <hazmat> SpamapS, i'll take a look at the bzr builder stuff after i get the region portability working
[17:52] <hazmat> hmm. i can launch ensemble in another zone.. but deploying formulas seems to be more problematic.
[17:56] <hazmat> ah.. the provisioning agent
[18:03] <koolhead17> hi all
[18:07] <_mup_> ensemble/ensemble-alternate-regions r205 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:07] <_mup_> region portability
[18:08] <hazmat> hi koolhead17
[18:08] <kim0> koolhead17: o/
[18:08] <koolhead17> how are things. hazmat amazon had some major issue today
[18:09] <koolhead17> hi kim0
[18:09] <kim0> they're still down :/
[18:09] <koolhead17> yes
[18:09] <koolhead17> :)
[18:09] <hazmat> koolhead17, we've  been working on a portability.. we had some code assumptions/dep issues with using alternate regions.
[18:09] <hazmat> i'm still working on it, i've got it bootstrapping in europe and us-west-1
[18:10] <hazmat> but the provisioning agent still has thing to work out
[18:10] <koolhead17> k
[18:11] <koolhead17> kim0: point me to your blog which you suggested me to start reading from please
[18:11] <hazmat> internally ensemble is composed of a set of agents, running on a set of machines  in a cloud environment. the provisioning agent is what's responsible for launching new machines for deployed services to live on.. bootstrap means getting a single machine in the environment running at least some of the core agents
[18:12] <koolhead17> ok
[18:13] <koolhead17> hazmat: i will focus today and read up on the documentation. i have got a amazon linux machine access from my friend
[18:13] <koolhead17> i hope that is what you guys meant by EC2
[18:14] <hazmat> koolhead17, ensemble really needs it own user provided ec2 account, its launching new machines for deployed services
[18:14] <kim0> koolhead17: you might enjoy http://foss-boss.blogspot.com/2010/10/pointnclick-guide-to-running-ubuntu-in.html
[18:14] <kim0> to get a basic understanding of ec2
[18:14] <koolhead17> ok nice
[18:14] <hazmat> we'll be looking at lxc support for 11.10 to allow people to run ensemble just on their own laptop/desktop hardware
[18:14] <kim0> you'll also find other cool stuff there :)
[18:15] <koolhead17> :)
[18:15] <kim0> hazmat: that would rock :)
[18:15] <kim0> hazmat: actually openstack now has lxc support ..
[18:15] <koolhead17> hazmat: okey
[18:15] <kim0> so hopefully it won't be too much changes for ensemble
[18:15] <hazmat> kim0, it does, i'm not sure how much its been tested/used though
[18:16] <hazmat> hopefully its good.. there's a lot of libvirt lxc work the last few months
[18:16] <koolhead17> hazmat: kim0 apology but i need to know about the lxe full form
[18:17] <hazmat> koolhead17, what of it? we'll have some attendance at a sprint on lxc in ubuntu with some others in august i think, we'd like to see lxc both within ec2 machines for isolation, and as a machine provider, the latter for desktop support.
[18:18] <koolhead17> hazmat: what is lxe ?
[18:18] <hazmat> we've been looking at using libvirt integration, but at the moment raw lxc is a bit easier. openstack which uses libvirt recently added lxc support so that's worth investigating.
[18:18] <hazmat> koolhead17, http://lxc.sf.net
[18:18] <koolhead17> thanks
[18:19] <koolhead17> kim0: we have used libvert only on openstack i suppose
[18:19] <hazmat> koolhead17, its like a bsd jail or solaris zone.. its an os level containerization of a set of processes such that isolation and resource limits can be put on the process set.
[18:20] <koolhead17> like Cgroups if am not wrong?
[18:20] <hazmat> koolhead17, libvirt sits on top of a number drivers for virtualization as an abstraction api, lxc is one of those drivers.
[18:20] <hazmat> koolhead17, its based on cgroups yes
[18:20] <koolhead17> okey cool.
[18:21] <hazmat> cgroups and clone syscall for the namespace isolation
[18:22] <koolhead17> waoo.
[18:26] <hazmat> SpamapS, jamu fixed the txaws warnings on trunk fwiw
[18:27] <SpamapS> hazmat: yeah seems like txaws trunk is *t3h awesomeness*
[18:27] <SpamapS> :)
[18:28] <kim0> any easy way to upgrade to that yet
[18:29]  * kim0 imagining ec2 engineers pulling out their hair now
[18:29] <hazmat> kim0, not outside bzr pull | bzr up atm, we can address as part of bug 768424
[18:29] <_mup_> Bug #768424: Setup a launchpad daily ppa recipe for ensemble and some deps <Ensemble:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/768424 >
[18:35] <koolhead17> kim0: does moinmoin gives you permission to import raw html? Am trying to be little optimist :P
[18:36] <kim0> I suppose not
[18:39] <koolhead17> kim0: that angle i would love to explore latex2html will be our key :P
[18:44] <kim0> koolhead17: a solution might be to write the docs in reST, from which sphinx can generated html for you, PDFs and moinmoin (it seems) can read reST directly (needs testing though)
[18:45] <kim0> generally however, writing in reST sounds like a good plan to me rather than anything else
[18:47] <hazmat> support for custom branches on deploy seems to be borked
[18:48] <koolhead17> kim0: let me think of another angle as well
[18:48] <koolhead17> :)
[18:49] <kim0> hazmat: oh I was planning on using gustavo's log fixes branch :)
[18:49] <jimbaker> moinmoin works well with rst, the only challenge is using sphinx directives not supported by it.  but that's usually pretty minor
[18:49] <kim0> jimbaker: do you know if the version of wiki.ubuntu.com does
[18:49] <hazmat> kim0, it looks like bzr is requiring an lp username and key for the remote machines.
[18:49] <hazmat> not sure why.. its a public branch
[18:50] <hazmat> kim0, that's in process of being updated
[18:50] <hazmat> from ancient 1.6 to 1.9 i think
[18:50] <jimbaker> kim0, i have only used python.org... but it's a simple plugin for moinmoin and a magic header to specify
[18:50] <kim0> great
[18:50] <jimbaker> probably plugin is installed on moinmoin
[18:51] <kim0> jimbaker: koolhead17 is writing some openstack docs, that needs to be available in html/PDF/moinmoin
[18:51] <kim0> were not sure what's the best source format
[18:51] <jimbaker> http://moinmo.in/HelpOnParsers/ReStructuredText
[18:51] <kim0> it seems reST is a good choice for now
[18:51] <kim0> just hope wiki.u.c is updated soonish :)
[18:51] <jimbaker> yeah, i definitely will always recommend rst
[18:52] <jimbaker> i write everything in it technical that's not code
[18:52] <kim0> koolhead17: ^ me too :)
[18:53] <hazmat> and sometimes not even technical ;-)
[18:53] <jimbaker> kim0, see jythonbook.com, which i coauthored
[18:54] <jimbaker> we actually produced microsoft word docs (ok open office, but for our publisher, it was ms word) and html from the sames source rst
[18:54] <jimbaker> ftw
[18:55] <jimbaker> the other thing i like is rst2pdf. it doesn't support the sphinx directives either, but it's great for precise production of pdfs. i use it for making presentations
[18:55] <koolhead17> rst2pdf is well enough
[19:00] <jimbaker> bcsaller, it seems to me that i need to augment HookContext to support open-port/close-port hook commands. in particular, this seems the right place to do it so that flush will properly commit changes
[19:01] <jimbaker> (in the future, we can take advantage of ZK multinode support too, so that the flush writes all or none of the nodes - https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ZOOKEEPER-965
[19:01] <hazmat> jimbaker, you'll need to use a separate yaml state, and incorporate it into flush
[19:01] <hazmat> your probably going to end up conflicting with bcsaller's work on service config
[19:01] <hazmat> there both exposing new hook apis
[19:01] <bcsaller> I'm thinking that like status HookContext is growing deps on too many interfaces and we'll have to refactor how that works in the future
[19:02] <jimbaker> hazmat, absolutely because it's on the service unit. not relation
[19:02] <hazmat> bcsaller, agreed
[19:02] <bcsaller> HookContext is becoming a kind of dumping ground
[19:02] <hazmat> bcsaller, well its going to become a facade over many different facilities
[19:02] <jimbaker> hazmat, that's one reason i'm pinging bcsaller, it seems that his service config stuff must :)
[19:02] <hazmat> as long as it can manage them all isomerically then hopefully its not too bad.
[19:02] <hazmat> else we can refactor more
[19:03] <jimbaker> maybe we can have some sort of plugin mechanism with hookcontext?
[19:03] <jimbaker> whatever that means
[19:03] <bcsaller> might be a better way to compose that object though, right now each will have to change flush for example
[19:03] <jimbaker> we do want one thing to call flush on
[19:03] <jimbaker> and have an associated client id
[19:04] <bcsaller> where as we could have a set of strategy objects which get iterated over in said calls
[19:04] <hazmat> the client id has been a constant string for a while ;-)
[19:04] <jimbaker> bcsaller, yes, that's what i wanted to call it :)
[19:04] <jimbaker> hazmat, i did not know that
[19:04] <hazmat> i think it can wait, but yeah.. it would be simple to do a get/set/del across method names of an abstraction object
[19:04] <jimbaker> here i am thinking it's supposed to do something
[19:04] <bcsaller> hazmat: if the debug stuff didn't need it to connect to existing sessions then its kind of a dead horse
[19:05] <hazmat> er. strategy plugins.. but at them moment it seems like more trouble than its worth.. somehow its going to conflict whereever it gets configured
[19:05] <jimbaker> hazmat, but these are touching independent pieces
[19:05] <jimbaker> we just want to make sure that they can be accessed together, flushed together
[19:05] <hazmat> jimbaker, to the hook context, are they all just a set of yaml states and methods manipulating them?
[19:06] <hazmat> ^aren't
[19:06] <jimbaker> hazmat, i think they are indeed
[19:06] <bcsaller> hazmat: agreed for now, but I think the change is simple in the future and it will help keep the various interfaces different but composable
[19:06] <hazmat> sounds good, you guys up for a standup bcsaller, jimbaker ?
[19:06] <bcsaller> yeah
[19:07] <jimbaker> hazmat, sounds good
[19:24] <jimbaker> { "port/proto" : True, "port/proto": <other info>...}
[19:25] <jimbaker> **/units/<internal unit id>/ports**
[19:28] <jimbaker> { "open": [{"port": 80, "proto": "tcp"}, ...]}
[19:40] <SpamapS> port isn't required right? there are portless protocols.. ;)
[19:44] <hazmat> cool working in other regions now
[19:44] <hazmat> SpamapS, it can be a port range
[19:45] <hazmat> SpamapS, there's some critical mass of args for modifying accesss on a security group ;-)
[19:45] <hazmat> which are different depending on your intent/args
[19:46] <_mup_> ensemble/ensemble-alternate-regions r206 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[19:46] <_mup_> remove some of the debug helpers
[20:03] <_mup_> ensemble/ensemble-alternate-regions r207 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:03] <_mup_> verify new ec2 environment schema for regions.
[20:05] <_mup_> ensemble/ensemble-alternate-regions r208 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:05] <_mup_> remove region alias compatibility with txaws (EU/US) in favor of partial domain names (us-east-1, ap-northeast-1, etc)
[20:06] <koolhead17> TeTeT: hey
[20:07] <_mup_> ensemble/ensemble-alternate-regions r209 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[20:07] <_mup_> failure to find an ssh-key is not fatal to an ec2 environment serialization...
[20:08] <TeTeT> hi koolhead17
[20:08] <koolhead17> TeTeT: Working on the Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud Course :)
[20:08] <koolhead17> saw your tweet. am curious about it ^^
[20:09] <TeTeT> koolhead17: right now on a sprint and will present uec persistence in a few minutes
[20:10] <TeTeT> koolhead17: what are you working on cloud wise these days?
[20:10] <koolhead17> openstack and trying to understand ensemble
[20:11] <koolhead17> :)
[20:14] <koolhead17> kim0: announcing-project-reddwarf-database-as-a-service intersting :)
[20:14] <hazmat> bcsaller, jimbaker if you guys have time would you mind looking at the ensemble-alternate-region branch..
[20:14] <kim0> koolhead17: yep
[20:14] <hazmat> i'd like to have ensemble working before ec2 is ;-)
[20:15] <kim0> hazmat: can I play with the branch now on a different ec2 region :)
[20:15] <koolhead17> hazmat: :P
[20:15] <hazmat> kim0, yes
[20:15] <hazmat> kim0, i had forget something basic i needed to do to make that work
[20:15] <hazmat> like push the  branch to lp
[20:15] <kim0> hehee :)
[20:15] <hazmat> well actually i had a name typo.. but same difference ;-)
[20:16] <koolhead17> hazmat: what prompted the project name ensemble
[20:17] <kim0> koolhead17: you can direct easy questions at me :)
[20:17] <hazmat> koolhead17, roots are in group communication systems and paxos, where ensemble is term used to refer to the working set of intercommunicating servers
[20:17] <hazmat> but that definiteion may change latter ;-)
[20:18] <kim0> ok that's a sophisticated answer
[20:18] <kim0> hazmat: I think that should go into a faq
[20:18] <hazmat> i think gustavo would be a better person to ask if you want a good origin name story
[20:18] <koolhead17> kim0: hazmat i met a guy this every sweet fellow asking me do u work on Ubunduu
[20:18] <hazmat> kim0, true
[20:18] <koolhead17> he pronounced it so differently
[20:18] <koolhead17> :P
[20:18] <kim0> Can anyone think of two other questions to put in a faq :)
[20:20] <kim0> hazmat: so once you push the branch let me know how to play with it (I hope that doesn't conflict with me wanting the instances running ensemble-log fixes branch)
[20:21] <hazmat> kim0, you mean regarding the alternate region branch?
[20:21] <TeTeT> kim0: what's the difference between ensemble and <insert favorite config mgmt system>
[20:21] <kim0> yep
[20:21] <TeTeT> kim0: when will it be ready for production
[20:21] <TeTeT> kim0: how to contribute
[20:21] <hazmat> kim0, if you branch gustavo's and merge mine you should be able to run in a different region, i don't have images up for asia yet, but europe and us (x2) are covered
[20:21] <hazmat> shouldn't be any conflicts
[20:21] <kim0> TeTeT: man you're good :)
[20:22] <TeTeT> kim0: what system do I need to control ensemble from?
[20:22] <TeTeT> kim0: he he, doing my best, no matter where
[20:22]  * kim0 starting a faq doc
[21:25] <koolhead17> kim0: there
[21:38] <jimbaker> hazmat, i need a txaws branch for your branch to work, right?
[21:39] <jimbaker> presumably, since it's failing in txaws trunk...
[21:47] <jimbaker> bcsaller, are you seeing this problem too? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/597140/
[21:48] <bcsaller> jimbaker: I haven't tried to run on ec2 in a while
[21:48] <bcsaller> and haven't seen that
[21:49] <jimbaker> bcsaller, just trying out hazmat's new branch for alternative regions and it's not working for me
[21:49] <hazmat>  jimbaker you also need to specify it as the remote branch
[21:49] <hazmat> ensemble-branch in the provider
[21:49] <jimbaker> hazmat, yes, of course :)
[21:49] <hazmat> the provisioning agent also relies on fixes in the branch
[21:50] <hazmat> jimbaker, it works with txaws trunk
[21:50] <jimbaker> all makes sense now... except for the mysterious failure part
[21:50] <hazmat> jimbaker, there's all kind of wierdness without the provisioning agent support.. we get partially initialized machine states, that status tends to barf on
[21:51] <hazmat> which arguably it should do better with
[21:51]  * jimbaker needs to do annual checklist next time... was going to alter environments.yaml, but got left out
[21:51] <jimbaker> still good experience for yet another bug report :)
[21:51] <jimbaker> manual, manual
[21:52] <jimbaker> rebooting really did a number on my mind it seems
[21:52] <_mup_> Bug #768595 was filed: Status should handle partially initialized machine states, ie. before they been handled by the provisioning agent <Ensemble:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/768595 >
[21:54] <jimbaker> hazmat, where should we report version discrepancies. might be nice if ensemble status did the check, since bootstrap seems too early
[21:55] <hazmat> jimbaker, we've got an open bug that to record bzr revno/branch info into zk
[21:55] <hazmat> probably could add it to some sort of common  cli check under verbose mode
[21:55] <jimbaker> hazmat, yeah. so if we reported that in ensemble status, that could be a good place
[21:55] <hazmat> jimbaker, i'm getting a little concerned about  how much back and forth traffic ensemble status is doing..
[21:55] <hazmat> it be nice if we could avoid pulling down the entire zk tree
[21:56] <hazmat> to do a status listing
[21:56] <hazmat> and feels like we're going in that direction, i'd rather keep the default and let be do filtering and additional display options to target something than have the default be slow
[21:56] <jimbaker> sure, but it does seem something that can be filtered on. but dev time is useful too
[21:57] <hazmat> its a very useful introspection tool
[21:57] <hazmat> and it would be nice to expand to do targeted display of relations values, ensemble versions, etc.
[21:57] <jimbaker> a message highlighting "are you really sure" when running two different branches would be valuable
[21:57] <hazmat> jimbaker, how often do you use the ensemble-branch feature
[21:58] <jimbaker> hazmat, what's worse is when i leave it turned on :)
[21:58] <hazmat> most of the time we're i'm just running trunk remotely
[21:58] <hazmat> jimbaker, true that
[21:58] <hazmat> that's bit me more than once
[21:59] <hazmat> we can play with it
[21:59] <hazmat> i guess its only once to look at the bootstrap node
[22:00] <jimbaker> which is required by all entry points anyway
[22:05] <jimbaker> hazmat, your branch looks good. i can't currently run the examples formulas as-is, but that's waiting on the logging changes
[22:05] <jimbaker> i will try it one more time w/ the older versions of the example formulas
[22:06] <jimbaker> what's currently on http://ec2-184-72-28-229.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/ demonstrates why the open-port setting needs to be done in the flush, ideally w/ all-or-nothing semantics
[22:07] <jimbaker> for future ref: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/597147/
[22:08] <jimbaker> "it works!" yeah, maybe it's fine, maybe it's really in a bad and unsecured state
[23:20] <hazmat> jimbaker, thats not the default incidentally, one of the formulas installed apache though
[23:21] <hazmat> server comes with nothing running except ssh by default as far services
[23:21] <hazmat> fwiw
[23:42] <jimbaker> hazmat, sure, we just see a partial configuration
[23:42] <jimbaker> hazmat, i retried with the example formulas in r200 of trunk (the last time i had run it), and i'm still not able to deploy against us-west-1
[23:51] <jimbaker> hazmat, i have seen this recur in a couple of attempted deploys - http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/597178/
[23:53] <jimbaker> it looks like the service relation is not being added, or something related to its workflow, based on what's missing from ensemble status
[23:57] <jimbaker> i really should look at this more directly in ZK, not certain what's going on here


[04:52] <coz_> so are people awake here this evening? well evening here anyway :)
[04:56] <wedderburn> its mid arvo in aus
[04:57] <troy_s> coz_: cozzy baby
[04:57] <coz_> wedderburn, oh ! I forgive you :)   although I am still jealous you are in austrailia
[04:57] <troy_s> coz_: how goes it my brother?
[04:57] <coz_> troy_s, hey guy :)
[04:57] <troy_s> coz_: Bah -- island of convicts -- nothing to be envious of.
[04:57] <coz_> troy_s, `not bad how about yourserlfg
[04:57] <troy_s> lol
[04:57] <wedderburn> coz_: where abouts are you?
[04:58] <coz_> wedderburn, I am in east coast US the state of Pennsylvania
[04:58] <wedderburn> ah yeah
[04:58] <coz_> actually its not a state its a common wealth but thats another story
[04:59] <coz_> troy_s, so how goes the art team at this point?
[04:59] <wedderburn> kinda like how aus is split  7 ways but only 5 are states?
[04:59] <coz_> wedderburn, really didnt know that
[05:00] <troy_s> coz_: Same is as same as.
[05:00] <troy_s> coz_: What do you think of Feisty?
[05:00] <wedderburn> woah wait im forgetting tasmania 8 ways but 5 are states
[05:00] <wedderburn> :-p
[05:00] <troy_s> coz_: Type your thoughts... brb
[05:00] <coz_> troy_s, yikes I was hoping for better news than that.... fesity is fine its ok the art sucks but the system runs :)
[05:00] <coz_> wedderburn, :)
[05:01] <coz_> I was kind of hoping things might be different for the up and coming ubuntu ?
[05:02] <coz_> I guess not right?
[05:04] <troy_s> coz_: LOL
[05:04] <troy_s> coz_: Who are you directing that question at?
[05:04] <coz_> troy_s, anyone who can answer it
[05:04] <coz_> :)
[05:04] <troy_s> coz_: and instead of sucks, could you elaborate into something that reads a little better?
[05:04] <troy_s> coz_: Do you mean 'different' as in different process?
[05:05] <coz_> troy_s, sure lol, well as you are well aware the default image on feisty is a bit washed out too simplifies for my taste
[05:05] <troy_s> is it an image... lol.
[05:05] <coz_>  troy_s lol
[05:06] <coz_> troy_s, well for the "things being different" thing... i was hoping maybe some things have changes interms of shuttlworth and the art team haveing a closer relationship?
[05:06] <troy_s> I think if such a thing were to be proposed, it might be very illusiory
[05:07] <coz_> troy_s, really? thats sad
[05:07] <troy_s> I suspect it is business as usual, with the 'what do you think of this or that' style approach
[05:07] <troy_s> to up the 'inclusion' value.
[05:07] <troy_s> that said, I could very well be very wrong.
[05:08] <coz_> troy_s, interesting I have reading some quotes by programmers and their ideas of the differences or similarities of art and programming and does programming fall into the catgory of art
[05:08] <troy_s> coz_: And for our parts, I would argue that we don't have a leg to stand on as no one has generated anything as a viable alternative.
[05:08] <troy_s> coz_: So it is, in reality, partially our fault.
[05:09] <coz_> troy_s, well you may be right,
[05:09] <troy_s> coz_: Which is why, if you believe in attempting to create change, one must do so first before one can expect any sort of offering extended.
[05:10] <coz_> troy_s, I will have to think abou that one :)
[05:10] <coz_> troy_s, what were you thing with the " no one has generated anything as viable alternative" statement?
[05:10] <coz_> thinking not thing
[05:11] <troy_s> well... i think as a community we really need to step up and generate a body of work.
[05:11] <troy_s> which is why nothlits rallying of the troops is important of late.
[05:11] <troy_s> etc.
[05:11] <troy_s> (i of course still flail away with that gg package working on, etc)
[05:11] <coz_> troy_s, a body of work consiting of what
[05:11] <troy_s> a design / look
[05:11] <troy_s> for the desktop
[05:12] <coz_> troy_s, oh  but not just the desktop right? the whole look of the system
[05:12] <troy_s> i would at least _aim_ for that.
[05:12] <troy_s> my feeling is that to embody the os, you don't need to do ALL the icons etc...
[05:12] <troy_s> perhaps 10 of the high visibility
[05:12] <troy_s> the sound design
[05:12] <troy_s> usplash
[05:13] <troy_s> gdm / logon splash / desktop wallpaper
[05:13] <troy_s> and metacity / gdm theme
[05:13] <troy_s> erk
[05:13] <troy_s> gtk theme
[05:13] <coz_> troy_s, i always thought one african theme would be nice however considering the areas that ubuntu goes into I am not sure tha twould be a good idea
[05:14] <troy_s> i think african is probably too heavy in terms of a motif.
[05:14] <coz_> troy_s, absolutely
[05:14] <troy_s> again, just a gut.
[05:14] <troy_s> what i was hoping was that we could knock out a series of themes aimed at the more atypical free software user
[05:14] <troy_s> being the mainstream
[05:14] <troy_s> mature folk
[05:14] <troy_s> (say 18-36)
[05:15] <troy_s> those with some degree of financial clout, etc.
[05:15] <coz_> troy_s, that is mature folk? :)
[05:15] <troy_s> well...
[05:15] <troy_s> its mature in terms of ...
[05:15] <troy_s> compared to say, the 12 year old gnome-look enthusiast.
[05:15] <troy_s> lol
[05:15] <coz_> oh :)
[05:15] <troy_s> but it is mature
[05:16] <troy_s> without being decrepit -- as in mature enough to influence significant change in a company.
[05:16] <troy_s> and not quite decrepit say, such as myself.
[05:16] <troy_s> lol
[05:16] <coz_> troy_s, have ideas come from anyone with some consistency
[05:16] <troy_s> other than the side projects, not exactly.  although I have quite high hopes for what nothlit is migrating towards.
[05:17] <coz_> troy_s, any examples to link to?
[05:18] <troy_s> coz_: More infrastructure right now pertaining to trying to build on a communication motif etc.
[05:18] <coz_> i see
[05:18] <troy_s> its a pretty open forum at the moment... iirc the vote ended up being
[05:18] <troy_s> collaboration and ... grr hold.
[05:19] <coz_> hmm
[05:19] <coz_> so is there a leaning towards a more conservative , clean, sleek look ?
[05:20] <troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/CommunityTheme/Collaboration+Progress
[05:20] <troy_s> i hope not
[05:20] <troy_s> i think the window is wide open
[05:20] <troy_s> coz_: I would like to see _many_ different approaches, but again, people need to stand up and contribute really.
[05:21] <troy_s> i am still working u2 towards an alpha package as well as a few other projects, so my attention is quite torn at the moment.
[05:21] <coz_> troy_s, I understand...well I have to admit I have been somewhat removed for a while since my last encounter with the ubuntu people
[05:21] <troy_s> lol
[05:21] <troy_s> get over it you bugger.
[05:21] <troy_s> those are FORUM people
[05:21] <coz_> :)
[05:22] <coz_> I understand  just bothers me that such young people sound like old men
[05:22] <coz_> well I guess I can get back to work on some things and upload them for at least you to look at at some point
[05:23] <troy_s> hrm.. you have new work?
[05:23] <troy_s> have you tried some work in inkscape?
[05:23] <coz_> troy_s, well at the moment they are just concepts
[05:23] <troy_s> it really has evolved into quite the bloody tool
[05:23] <troy_s> i put up a half finished piece
[05:23] <coz_> troy_s, yes I hve been working with inkscape qute a bit to get familiar witht he vocabulary of the app
[05:23] <troy_s> on my blogzone
[05:24] <troy_s> it is _sooooo_ good... even for traditional art.
[05:24] <coz_> troy_s, can is see it?
[05:24] <troy_s> troy-sobotka.blogspot.com
[05:25] <coz_> troy_s, very nice :)
[05:25] <troy_s> just an experiment, but i have thus far been pleasantly surprised.
[05:25] <coz_> www.coz1.blogspot.com   is mine with some of my older boring pieces
[05:25] <troy_s> so you have some new stuff down the pipe?
[05:26] <troy_s> wow that macro photo sort of hair follicle refraction is ... eerily awsome.
[05:26] <coz_> troy_s, I do have some ideas that have been developing but with my support time in #beryl I haven't had time to get them put them into a visula at all
[05:27] <troy_s> is that lion a painting?  i canna tell
[05:27] <coz_> troy_s, yes it is
[05:27] <wedderburn> troy_s: have you seen this http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=445758662&context=set-72157600046909364&size=o ?
[05:27] <troy_s> and coz you dumb fecker... use the blogger embed thing for images then you can click to get bigger versions
[05:27] <coz_> troy_s, lol
[05:27] <troy_s> for example, click on the portrait of my daughter you'll see what i mean
[05:27] <coz_> wedderburn, woodgrain :)
[05:27] <troy_s> just pick your image size and goo
[05:28] <wedderburn> coz_: yeah i thought it looked really nice like ages when i last saw it
[05:28] <troy_s> wedderburn: You saw the early u2 stuff yes?
[05:28] <wedderburn> yes i have
[05:28] <coz_> wedderburn, i like it as well :)
[05:28] <troy_s> yeah... we tried textures
[05:28] <troy_s> in the end, went away with it.
[05:28] <troy_s> and into the current state...
[05:28] <wedderburn> didn't think much of the  min max close buttons though
[05:28] <troy_s> i love the wood, but it is a tad on point
[05:28] <wedderburn> on the u2 art
[05:28] <coz_> troy_s, my nephew forces me to start a blog and after I heard that song "istarted a blog" I though ok why not :)
[05:28] <troy_s> wedderburn: totally changed
[05:28] <wedderburn> really
[05:28] <troy_s> wedderburn: more uh... evolutionary process...
[05:29] <troy_s> wedderburn: that was the point, put the shit up even knowing that it would likely change
[05:29] <coz_> hmm I better get started with some of these ideas  then   I feel left out :)
[05:29] <troy_s> coz_: where is the bigger link for the lion painting?
[05:30] <wedderburn> troy_s: piff it at a wall and see what sticks?
[05:30] <coz_> troy_s, i don't have one I removed all my work from ubuntuforums but I can upload it if you want to see it  if I can find the damn thing
[05:30] <wedderburn> does anyone outside of aus use the word pift ?
[05:30] <coz_> wedderburn, pift?  mm what does it mean?
[05:30] <wedderburn> to throw
[05:30] <wedderburn> to piff something
[05:31] <wedderburn> or have something piffed at you
[05:31] <coz_> wedderburn, no never heard that in the US yet!
[05:31] <coz_> wedderburn, we use  'pissed: here :)
[05:31] <wedderburn> yeah so do we
[05:31] <coz_> lol
[05:31] <wedderburn> when we discribe someone whos drunk
[05:31] <coz_> actually we just use somting thrown at you
[05:32] <wedderburn> thats odd
[05:32] <coz_> wedderburn, that is typically british isnt it?
[05:32] <wedderburn> coz_: piff of pissed?
[05:32] <troy_s> wedderburn: yes... throw shit at wall... not so much to see if it sticks, but even while you are working / evolving.
[05:32] <troy_s> with the hopes that perhaps, even through the intermediate versions, you stir something in someone else.
[05:32] <troy_s> i _loved_ the textures, but it just wasn't coming together.
[05:32] <coz_> wedderburn, `well if someone had something happen to them unexpected then we woudl say that was thrown at them or it came from left field
[05:32] <troy_s> so had to take a different route.
[05:33] <coz_> wedderburn, if you meant literally thrown at them then we just say  "what the f*** was that?
[05:33] <wedderburn> sounds about right
[05:34] <wedderburn> though we would call them a bloody yob after ;)
[05:34] <coz_> ah oh a bloddy yob ????
[05:34] <wedderburn> bloody yobbo
[05:34] <coz_> wedderburn, ok that needs even more explanation
[05:34] <coz_> :)
[05:35] <wedderburn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yobbo
[05:35] <coz_> wedderburn, ooo you wouldnt say stuff like that where i live
[05:36] <coz_> :)
[05:36] <coz_> wedderburn, this is all working class here always has been
[05:36] <wedderburn> it can be used as a compliment
[05:36] <coz_> troy_s, I will try to get busy on some of these ideas and let you take a look at them
[05:36] <wedderburn> depends where yo uare
[05:37] <coz_> wedderburn, true :)
[05:37] <wedderburn> now you know what a bogan is right?
[05:37] <coz_> wedderburn, no  !!!
[05:37] <wedderburn> its like another word for yobbo but less insulting
[05:38] <coz_> wedderburn, mm must be interesting in austrailia
[05:39] <wedderburn> yeah you can use all these words and no one from the states can understand a word of it
[05:40] <coz_> well guys I happen to live in the US and it is now 11:39 PM  and i am getting tired....nice talking with both of you and troy_s i will start work on some of this stuff soon and let you know when I upload it  night to both of you
[05:40] <coz_> wedderburn,:)
[05:46] <troy_s> wedderburn: Did I mention craig mullens sent me email two days ago!?
[05:46] <troy_s> wedderburn: How cool is that?
[05:52] <wedderburn> who?
[05:53] <troy_s> wedderburn: uh oh
[05:53] <troy_s> wedderburn: You probably wouldn't give a shit then... lol
[05:54] <troy_s> wedderburn: http://www.goodbrush.com/
[06:06] <wedderburn> reading
[06:06] <wedderburn> :Pjust got back from tech support for my dad
[06:09] <troy_s> wedderburn: Very talented fecking guy... very busy too -- he is booked right up till' November on some very high visibility projects.
[06:10] <wedderburn> wow
[06:10] <wedderburn> thats pretty good
[06:10] <troy_s> lol
[06:11] <wedderburn> troy_s: so bit of a honor that he took some time to email?
[06:11] <troy_s> well not exactly
[06:11] <troy_s> it is regarding that feature film thing
[06:11] <troy_s> he did the covers of the novels
[06:11] <troy_s> erm let me find a link
[06:11] <troy_s> http://www.amazon.ca/When-Gravity-Fails-George-Effinger/dp/0765313588/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/702-3959575-2940039?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179115892&sr=8-1
[06:11] <troy_s> that's the first of the trilogy
[06:13] <troy_s> anyways, that's his art
[06:13] <troy_s> wedderburn: very bloody talented guy.
[06:14] <wedderburn> :)
[06:16] <wedderburn> troy_s: so anything good planned for gusty's ubuntu art?
[06:18] <troy_s> wedderburn: Lol.  in what capacity?
[06:18] <wedderburn> shrug
[06:20] <troy_s> wedderburn: Well that's bout the answer then :)
[06:20] <troy_s> Although i hear there is this really revolutionary motif coming around !!!  Earth / Air / Water / Fire etc.
[06:21] <wedderburn> :P
[07:26] <nothlit> troy_s: holy crud you're right people don't get it--theyre still focusing on widget shapes, copying osx and reading what i've layed out and immediately equating it to what's been done already
[07:26] <nothlit> troy_s: i had hoped people could contribute more in this decision stage =/
[07:27] <nothlit> otherwise it just becomes what you or i see with no extraneous input
[07:34] <troy_s> nothlit: It's one part education, one part execution, and three parts brute force.
[07:34] <troy_s> nothlit: The BEST part of the fun and games
[07:35] <troy_s> nothlit: Is that IF, and that is a BIG IF,
[07:35] <troy_s> nothlit: IF Ubuntu design actually embodied those principles on SOME level, we probably wouldn't be attempting to execute the project.
[07:37] <troy_s> nothlit: I would say to that post, please point to the design that embodies that.
[07:40] <troy_s> nothlit:  I guess I would love someone to please point me to a successful design campaign that wasn't the byproduct of some serious brainstorming and discussion.
[07:49] <nothlit> troy_s: a design campaign? few if any. if design is the main focus, in order to carry itself it has to have thought and vision applied, there isn't really dumb luck in design itself
[07:49] <nothlit> troy_s: otherwise-- if design isn't the focus, i suppose there are grassroots campaigns where the message is far more important the the mode of delivery
[07:50] <nothlit> troy_s: you aren't serious about the elements thing for gutsy are you?
[07:50] <troy_s> kawhat?
[07:50] <troy_s> elements for guts?
[07:50] <troy_s> sorry?
[07:50] <nothlit> design by nature involves planning
[07:51] <troy_s> the earth / air / fire?
[07:51] <troy_s> cliche?
[07:51] <nothlit> 12:20:22 < troy_s> Although i hear there is this really revolutionary motif coming around !!!  Earth / Air / Water / Fire etc.
[07:51] <nothlit> yeah
[07:51] <troy_s> oh yes... i am very serious
[07:51] <troy_s> it is called 'hey i don't know what this motif thing is, but i have this wonderful idea'
[07:51] <troy_s> lol
[07:51] <troy_s> earthy is one thing
[07:51] <troy_s> four elements is a bad video game
[07:51] <nothlit> or the show avatar :)
[07:52] <nothlit> but elements and balancing in itself is more an abstract/arty thing--does he not realise theres absolutely no content in that motif?
[07:53] <troy_s> uh... i'll just leave that whole thing alone
[07:53] <troy_s> as i said, it is one part education...
[07:53] <troy_s> *sigh*
[07:56] <nothlit> troy_s: so you prefer technology/man made objects to define progress?
[07:58] <troy_s> me?  no...
[07:58] <troy_s> nothlit: I am still all 100% for Ubuntu vocalizing organics.
[07:58] <troy_s> nothlit: But I do think that that direction could work as well...
[07:58] <troy_s> nothlit: And in fact, I would probably like to see some output.
[07:59] <troy_s> nothlit: Seriously though, judging from the resounding amount of brilliance exhibited thus far,
[07:59] <troy_s> nothlit: Perhaps we just work on cranking something out...
[07:59] <troy_s> nothlit: Start in greyscale / sketch
[08:00] <troy_s> and work outwards?
[08:00] <troy_s> based on the loose goals?
[08:00] <nothlit> yeah thats what i'm planning on doing
[08:00] <troy_s> i fear that all we can probably accomplish is transparency in operation
[08:00] <troy_s> nothlit: Having a workflow would help
[08:00] <troy_s> nothlit: As in, if the starting point is the same, at least they can be evaluated on similar terms
[08:01] <troy_s> nothlit: It is impossible to say, cast a vote on a semi-finished piece versus something offered as a proof of principle on the back of a napkin
[08:01] <nothlit> a series of loose (colour) sketches--and people can express approval/disagreement from there
[08:01] <troy_s> (well possible, but highly unlikely with respect to the mindsets.)
[08:01] <nothlit> easier for the general public to visualise
[08:02] <troy_s> yeah i have no idea really
[08:02] <troy_s> it is so well beyond any workflow -- well it isn't a workflow really
[08:02] <troy_s> its rather just 'hey let's pretend and you judge.)
[08:02] <nothlit> i'd prefer to work palettes out on actual work than picking anyways
[08:02] <troy_s> shit... i must bed.
[08:03] <troy_s> email me your thoughts
[08:03] <nothlit> kk cyas
[02:03] <dilomo> yo
[05:16] <troy_s> nothlit: Ping?
[05:50] <nothlit> troy_s: heyas


[02:38] <mfisch> I didn't even know we had an IRC channel!
[17:24] <MagicFab___> joey o/
[17:24] <joey> MagicFab___: aloha!
[17:25] <joey> oh you are in town already?
[17:25] <MagicFab___> FunnyLookinHat, o/
[17:25] <MagicFab___> joey, sure
[17:25] <joey> well in town = Denver. I'm an hour north
[17:25] <MagicFab___> yes, Denver/Aurora :)
[17:26] <MagicFab___> joey, what ar eyou up to these days?
[17:27] <MagicFab___> I noticed the new "IT Risk and Compliance.." position :) nice.
[17:29] <joey> yeah I came back in off rotation from Linaro
[17:29] <joey> atm I'm improving security items
[17:29] <joey> and just getting a handle on what we have for Legal
[17:31] <MagicFab___> is anyone else than FunnyLookinHat  admin for the team at loco.ubuntu.com? We need to add tomorrow's Hour there :)
[17:31] <MagicFab___> yummy, legal.
[17:32] <MagicFab___> -> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/1444/detail/ I am trying to see if I can add the event myself
[17:33] <joey> MagicFab___: it appears I can
[17:33] <MagicFab___> joey, it looks like you could add the event there
[17:34] <joey> 18:00 to  ?
[17:34] <MagicFab___> I'd say 18 to 21,
[17:34] <MagicFab___> knowing that the "core' is the first hour :)
[17:34] <joey> k, I'm doing it now in case anyone else stumbles on us here
[17:35] <MagicFab___> k
[17:37] <joey> fab, http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/coloradoteam/1997/detail/
[17:41] <MagicFab___> woah, that was faster than in my team :)
[17:45] <FunnyLookinHat> Yo
[17:45] <FunnyLookinHat> I'm here.
[17:45] <FunnyLookinHat> Oh it's just you...
[17:46]  * FunnyLookinHat goes back to code.
[17:47] <MagicFab___> :D
[17:48] <MagicFab___>  /kick code
[18:34] <Garheade> Hello all
[20:26] <MagicFab___> FunnyLookinHat, this is exactly what I told you about yesterday: http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=6753
[20:31] <FunnyLookinHat> MagicFab___, oh this is cool!
[20:31] <FunnyLookinHat> thx


[05:59] <SmSpillaz> @any Amaranth
[17:42] <Sarvatt> dh_gconf is bringing in an unfulfillable gconf2 dep for maverick right now - gconf2 (>= 2.28.1-2)
[20:41] <kklimonda> so my gwibber is using almost 850MB of memory.. nice
[20:41] <kklimonda> kenvandine_: ^ :)
[22:00]  * Helena79 Discounts!! Our Special Limited Time Offers Up To May,22!!!New BranD!! Notebooks,Plasma and LCD TV's.Buy your electronic needs at our unique prices. Laptop Sony VAIO® VGN-FW590FFD-575,57$!!!Apple MacBook® Air MC234LL/A-695,27$!!! http://www.elplace.com/


[16:29] <flocculant> balloons: you about with a spare 5 minutes for an old friend ...
[17:19] <balloons> flocculant, what's up?
[17:20] <flocculant> balloons: hey :)
[17:20] <flocculant> was setting up iso.tracker for ubuntu budgie - not sure about download link?
[17:21] <flocculant> did the rest of it for them though
[17:21] <balloons> flocculant, ohh fun
[17:21] <flocculant> oh - how to have their release team on the list to choose from was the other issue
[17:22] <flocculant> balloons: how's things in your new world by the way - I see you now and again in -release :)
[17:22] <balloons> the enemey you know is better "=_
[17:22] <flocculant> :p
[17:23] <balloons> flocculant, for download, I would copy the format of the other images. Just verify it once you are done
[17:24]  * balloons looks
[17:24] <flocculant> balloons: I looked at a xubuntu one - seems the link was last xenial - which is obviously not the case
[17:24] <balloons> You can also say series = None (which is the fallback(
[17:27] <flocculant> yea - it was filename/type and path I didn't want to screw up :)
[17:28] <flocculant> if you're busy I'll just ping in -release
[17:28] <balloons> flocculant, there is a ubuntu budgie release role now
[17:28] <flocculant> thanks :)
[17:29] <balloons> flocculant, that said no one has that role. Need to know who to give it too
[17:30] <flocculant> oh - doesn't come from LP then?
[17:31] <flocculant> fossfreedom is the only one in https://launchpad.net/~ubuntubudgie-release/+members#active
[17:32] <flocculant> shows as 20 on the products page http://i.imgur.com/uj5PWlQ.png
[18:19] <flocculant> balloons: cheers - got their download links on the tracker now - not sure about the budgie release team stuff so *shrug*
[18:20] <flocculant> thanks for your help with that stuff - you're a ninja :)
[19:28] <balloons> oh so add fossfreedom then?
[19:28] <flocculant> balloons: seems so
[19:28] <flocculant> I assume that 'release team' stuff is elsewhere and not tracker admin
[19:28] <wxl> balloons: buy you a beer if you make an official team for those with tracker access
[19:29] <wxl> balloons: two beers if it names a particular team to bug to be added
[19:31] <flocculant> wxl: there is an official budgie release team :p
[19:33] <wxl> flocculant: i meant an official team to contain all the teams that have access to the tracker
[19:33] <wxl> right now those teams or people that have access to the tracker are completely invisible
[19:41] <flocculant> wxl: I thought it was flavour release team can fiddle with their stuff, website dev team can fiddle with anyones and canonical bods can do what they want/need to
[19:42] <flocculant> is that what you meant?
[19:43] <wxl> flocculant: yes, but adding a "flavour release team" is a matter that happens behind the scenes. no one can see the list of people that are included, nor is it clear who is reponsible for adding/removing people.
[19:43] <flocculant> oh right - well yea, no idea how that's done
[19:44] <wxl> yeah well, neither do i
[19:45] <wxl> well
[19:45] <wxl> i have an educated guess that i doubt is wrong:
[19:45] <wxl>  1. create a new lp team
[19:45] <wxl>  2. add the teams/people to the new lp team
[19:45] <wxl> 3. add the new lp team to the tracker
[19:45] <wxl>  4. remove all the old teams/people from the tracker
[19:45] <wxl> then everything is managed on launchpad. WAAAY easier.
[19:46] <flocculant> I thought it was managed that way - what I didn't know was how to add new-release team to the list of possible
[19:46] <wxl> yeah i'm pretty darn sure it's not
[19:47] <wxl> i intuit that from the fact that OUR release team doesn't have any memberships at all
[19:47] <flocculant> mmm - I know if I undo all my lp teams then it goes wrong
[19:48] <flocculant> anyway - not that worried so long as I know who can fiddle with xubuntu :p
[19:48] <wxl> practically, yes. i just like things properly organized for the future. :/
[19:49] <wxl> and/or for others
[19:49] <flocculant> the rest of adding a flavour to tracker wasn't too bad and is now in the tracker manual
[19:49] <flocculant> yea I unsderstand
[19:49] <wxl> oh it is?
[19:49] <flocculant> that's in my head
[19:49] <flocculant> there is no manual that I know of
[19:49] <wxl> i'm sure you can imagine my reaction to that as well XD
[19:50] <flocculant> it's on my list of things to look at
[19:50] <flocculant> when I can remember where I put the list I'll maybe look :p
[19:50] <wxl> hahahhaah
[19:50]  * flocculant fails to see why other people should have it easy :D
[19:51] <wxl> gosh you're mean :)
[19:51] <flocculant> one day perhaps I'll start a wiki page for it
[19:52] <flocculant> then only get half way through because can't login to it again :p
[19:52] <wxl> well you can always dictate it to me if you want
[19:52] <wxl> or send an email
[19:52] <flocculant> once upon a time
[19:52] <wxl> *I*'m patient XD
[19:52] <flocculant> there was some guy called Walter
[19:52] <flocculant> who hassled this other guy :p
[19:52] <flocculant> he he he
[19:52] <wxl> hehehehe
[19:53]  * flocculant takes penknife to a quill ...
[19:53]  * flocculant mixes up some ink
[19:54]  * flocculant can't find any paper :(
[19:54] <wxl> use your skin
[19:54] <wxl> you'll never forget
[19:54]  * tsimonq2 buys flocculant an Ubuntu 4-in-1 pen https://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=1075
[19:55] <flocculant> wxl: I look like this already http://i.imgur.com/X5HiBBn.jpg
[19:55] <flocculant> tsimonq2: don't look
[19:55] <wxl> flocculant: looking good there buddy :)
[19:55] <flocculant> \o/
[19:56] <tsimonq2> flocculant: I looked because you told me not to :P :P :P
[19:57] <tsimonq2> heh :P
[19:57] <flocculant> of course
[19:57] <flocculant> I should have guessed you would ... teenager ...
[19:57] <flocculant> should have told you to look :p


[01:30] <thumper> it is right about now I want a debugger with local variable introspection
[01:31] <wallyworld> thumper: use PyCharm :-D
[01:31] <thumper> for golang?
[01:31] <wallyworld> yup
[01:31] <thumper> has debugging?
[01:31] <wallyworld> yup
[01:31] <thumper> since when?
[01:31] <wallyworld> ages
[01:31] <wallyworld> you use a golang plugin
[01:32] <thumper> but... but... PyCharm
[01:32] <wallyworld> any of the IDEs work
[01:32] <wallyworld> IntelliJ etc
[01:32] <wallyworld> but i like PyCharm so I can also open the Python juju client etc
[01:32] <wallyworld> they all use the same plugin
[01:33] <wallyworld> i don't think the offical plugin has all the features, i use one that's in development which will become offical
[01:33] <wallyworld> jetbrains took it over
[01:34] <wallyworld> axw: i have to head out to take kid to movie theatre, bbiab
[01:34] <axw> wallyworld: sure, I'm half way through your review
[01:36] <wallyworld> i owe you a beer :-(
[01:51] <natefinch> ericsnow: you around?
[02:17] <davechen1y> thumper: https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/4212
[02:17] <davechen1y> ugly ass backport to 1.25
[02:18] <davechen1y> needs a lot of testing as I had to bump the version of juju/utils to pick up dependencies of the juju/juju/testing package which the state/leadership tests use
[02:20] <thumper> ugh
[02:20] <thumper> reviweed
[03:06] <thumper> fuck-a-doodle
[03:06]  * thumper bangs his head on the desk
[03:06] <thumper> just figuratively
[03:10] <thumper> oh FFS
[03:10]  * thumper takes a deep breath and dives into the code again
[03:22] <davechen1y> um
[03:22] <davechen1y> % juju bootstrap --bootstrap-series=precise --upload-tools -v
[03:22] <davechen1y> error: flag provided but not defined: --bootstrap-series
[03:22] <davechen1y> how am I supposed to test 1.25 when it doens't understand this flag ...
[03:23] <davechen1y> what's olde english for --boostrap-series
[03:23] <natefinch> --series?
[03:23] <davechen1y> i'll try it ?
[03:23] <davechen1y> i'll try it
[03:24] <natefinch> also, juju help bootstrap ;)
[03:24] <davechen1y> lucky(~/src/github.com/juju/juju) % juju bootstrap --series=precise --upload-tools -v
[03:24] <davechen1y> Use of --series is obsolete. --upload-tools now expands to all supported series of the same operating system.
[03:24] <davechen1y> WARNING ignoring environments.yaml: using bootstrap config in file ""
[03:24] <davechen1y> WARNING This juju environment is already bootstrapped. If you want to start a new Juju
[03:24] <davechen1y> environment, first run juju destroy-environment to clean up, or switch to an
[03:24] <davechen1y> alternative environment.
[03:24] <davechen1y> ERROR environment is already bootstrapped
[03:25] <davechen1y> ^ that is a lie
[03:25] <natefinch> juju destroy-environment foo --force -y
[03:25] <natefinch> already bootstrapped sometimes means "last bootstrapped failed and we didn't clean up enough" :/
[03:32] <davechen1y> thumper: did you find the details about the juju/txn bug we talked about at standup
[03:32] <davechen1y> i'd like to look into that as a priority
[03:32] <davechen1y> 'cos that is horrible
[03:35] <thumper> no, sorry
[03:37] <davechen1y> :(
[03:43] <davechen1y> wow, 1.25 is old
[03:43] <davechen1y> no --format short
[03:45] <thumper> davechen1y: juju/txn ErrExcessiveContention
[03:45] <axw> davechen1y: there was never a way to specify series for just the bootstrap machine before. you had to set preferred-series in environments.yaml
[03:45] <davechen1y> that's the one
[03:45] <davechen1y> axw: ahh
[03:45] <thumper> txn.go line 151
[03:46] <davechen1y> yeah, i know that
[03:46] <davechen1y> so we said at standup that error X is happening, which doesn't match any of the preconditions, so the errror is replaced by ErrExcessiveContention
[03:47] <davechen1y> ok, i was wrong juju status --format short is implemented
[03:47] <davechen1y> but returns nothing if you have no machines deployed
[03:47] <davechen1y> which makes sense in a "thanks, that didn't help" way
[03:48] <thumper> heh
[03:49] <davechen1y> thumper: can you find the fix that you landed last time this happened ?
[03:49] <davechen1y> which i imagine probably jiggled a transaction operation to not do something
[03:50] <thumper> let me take a quick look
[03:50] <davechen1y> ta
[04:05] <davechen1y> thumper: fix confirmed, submitting http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/3645/
[04:16] <thumper> ok
[04:16] <thumper> quick look doesn't find it I'm afraid
[04:18] <thumper> davechen1y: my test tear down is failing saying I have dirty sockets...
[04:19] <thumper> davechen1y: after more looking, I can't see what's going on
[04:19] <thumper> any hints on how to debug this?
[04:21] <davechen1y> thumper: linkage
[04:21] <thumper> wat?
[04:21] <davechen1y> link for some text of what you are seeing
[04:21] <davechen1y> please
[04:22] <thumper> davechen1y: http://paste.ubuntu.com/14676889/
[04:23] <davechen1y> ta
[04:23] <davechen1y> thumper: normally whent hat happens mongo has crapped itself waaaaaya up in the piece
[04:25] <thumper> yeah, but only running one test
[04:25] <thumper> and it is recurring
[04:25] <thumper> so I'm guessing it is me
[04:25] <davechen1y> off
[04:25] <davechen1y> odd
[04:26] <thumper> normally this is when you forget to close something
[04:26] <davechen1y> i've always seen that in big test runs when mongo poops itself and this is just the aftershock of every suite setup and tear down
[04:26] <thumper> but I have the defer close
[04:26] <davechen1y> failing
[04:37] <thumper> hmm... logging is getting me places... slowly
[04:50] <davechen1y> thumper: this merge gets worse and worse
[04:50] <davechen1y> 'cos juju/juju/testing needs a newer version of juju/utils, had to update that
[04:50] <davechen1y> and juju/utils needs yaml.v2
[04:51] <davechen1y> this is like the story about needing a nail to fix a horse shoe
[04:51] <davechen1y> to get a penny
[04:51] <davechen1y> to buy some milk
[04:51] <davechen1y> to feed a pig
[04:51] <davechen1y> to ride on sunday
[04:52] <thumper> well, at least you can see your journey...
[04:53] <thumper> my test is being torn down while running
[04:53] <thumper> beat that
[04:53] <thumper> I mean, WTF?
[04:54] <thumper> davechen1y: right now I have *no* clue as to what's going on
[04:54] <davechen1y> push it to a branch
[04:54] <davechen1y> i'll take a look
[04:55] <thumper> pushing
[04:57] <natefinch> this is (one of the reasons) why dumping a bunch of unrelated crap into juju/utils is a terrible idea.  If it was all separate repos, you could just update the one you need, and not update everything else.
[04:59] <thumper> davechen1y: https://github.com/howbazaar/juju/tree/migrate-machines
[05:00] <thumper> davechen1y: although I'm pretty much done...
[05:00] <thumper> davechen1y: let me point you at a few things:
[05:01] <thumper> state/migration_import_test.go line 185
[05:01] <thumper> that line is never reached in the test
[05:01] <thumper> state/migration_import.go line 142, both the possible return places have logging, neither happens
[05:02] <thumper> I get: [LOG] 0:00.255 DEBUG juju.state.import-model importing machine 0
[05:02] <thumper> START: <autogenerated>:784: MigrationImportSuite.TearDownTest
[05:02] <thumper> [LOG] 0:00.255 DEBUG juju.state closed state without error
[05:03] <thumper> no test assertion failed AFAICT
[05:03] <thumper> just start of tear down
[05:03] <thumper> it would be great if you figured this out, but I'm going to sleep on it
[05:03] <thumper> laters
[08:58] <frobware> dooferlad, running 10 mins late...
[08:59] <dooferlad> frobware: ack
[09:11] <frobware> dooferlad, back...
[09:12] <dooferlad> frobware: see in in a sec then
[09:22] <jam> wallyworld: I just submitted bug #1538462 about "juju bootstrap --debug" containing a lot of simplestreams "garbage"
[09:22] <mup> Bug #1538462: simplestreams debug content is useless (juju bootstrap --debug) <logging> <simplestreams> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538462>
[09:22] <jam> specifically, it is serializing something and putting just the pointer content into the log
[09:23] <jam> 20130404:0xc8201f1e00 20130423:0xc8201f1ec0 20131123:0xc82040c0c0 20130313:0xc8201f16e0 20131022:0xc8201f18c0 20130928:0xc8201f1980
[09:23] <jam> is not particularly useful for anyone
[09:40] <mup> Bug #1538462 opened: simplestreams debug content is useless (juju bootstrap --debug) <logging> <simplestreams> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538462>
[09:50] <jam> frobware: dimitern: I got roped into a phone call for a client, so I won't be able to make standup today.
[09:51] <frobware> jam: ack
[09:52] <frobware> dimitern, do you have an /e/n/i I could look at from your IPv6 setup?
[09:58] <dimitern> jam, np
[09:58] <dimitern> frobware, not right now, but I can get one
[09:59] <frobware> dimitern, not desperately urgent
[10:02] <frobware> dimitern, voidspace: standup
[10:03] <dimitern> sorry, omw
[10:30] <dimitern> frobware, I'm typing in the HO chat
[10:38] <voidspace> dimitern: we said don't do the hack with a yaml setting and take a couple of days to do it properly
[10:38] <frobware> dimitern, I'm confused about the proposed PR/change for default.
[10:39] <frobware> dimitern, are we going for a change that does NOT require a yaml addition?
[10:40] <dimitern> frobware, voidspace, ok, let me think for a bit to see what are the options
[10:40] <dimitern> and then we can decide?
[10:41] <frobware> dimitern, thanks. we need to convey our plans to cheryl too
[10:42] <axw> wallyworld: https://github.com/juju/juju/compare/cloud-credentials...axw:cloud-credentials-prepareforbootstrapparams  -- all tests pass, but I want to do some live tests and audit code before I propose it (tomorrow)
[10:42] <axw> wallyworld: if you want to look before then, I don't expect too much will change
[10:43] <wallyworld> axw: ok, will do
[11:41] <dimitern> frobware, I think I have a good plan for a "proper" fix
[11:41] <frobware> dimitern, great!
[11:41] <wallyworld> jam: hey, you still online? what are your issues with splitting config and dat directories?
[11:42] <dimitern> here's the gist of it: http://paste.ubuntu.com/14678495/
[11:42] <frobware> dimitern, want to HO to discuss? I can act as a sounding board.
[11:42] <jam> wallyworld: I don't have a huge problem with it, I don't know that it actually provides clarity rather than just complexity, though.
[11:42] <dimitern> frobware, I need to go out now, but let's chat when I'm back in <1h
[11:42] <jam> wallyworld: the data we have I wouldn't put into /usr/share, for example
[11:42] <frobware> dimitern, ok, but probably after that as I have a couple of back-2-back meetings.
[11:42] <jam> its not that kind of dataa
[11:42] <dimitern> frobware, np
[11:43] <wallyworld> jam: it keeps pure config data that the user can and should look at and edit separate from stuff they should not edit lest the stuff things up. and it conforms to a standard
[11:43] <wallyworld> sure not in /usr/share but ~/config/juju for clouds and credentials
[11:43] <wallyworld> and the data dir for controller cache and other runtime stuff users should not see
[11:44] <wallyworld> we don't want to put in their faces files they are not expected to look at
[11:44] <wallyworld> we tell them - anything in ~/.config/juju you can edit and look at
[11:44] <wallyworld> that makes it easy for them
[11:46] <jam> wallyworld: so can you link the actual "this is where you should put file X" stuff? The actual XDG spec just says what the variables are, but not how to pick which one
[11:47] <wallyworld> jam: i don't have the link, but perrito666 probably does
[11:48] <jam> wallyworld: so there are a couple of articles on "ploum.net" that talk about this, but actually his notes seem to say everything should be in DATA
[11:48] <jam> as they aren't just "preferences that can be reset"
[11:48] <wallyworld> everything in data makes no sense
[11:49] <wallyworld> clouds and credentials etc are definitely config
[11:49] <jam> https://ploum.net/184-cleaning-user-preferences-keeping-user-data
[11:49] <jam> wallyworld: credentials are critical information about remote systems
[11:49] <jam> not just simple config
[11:49] <jam> as in, if I lose them, I'm hosed
[11:49] <jam> vs "I want tabular by default" is config
[11:50] <jam> the pluom article at least says that you should be able to wipe config and start fresh with default settings
[11:51] <jam> and that is *not* true of credentials
[11:51] <wallyworld> so perhaps the new jenv type stuff should go in "<runtime>" not data
[11:52] <wallyworld> i'll discuss it some more
[11:53] <jam> wallyworld: runtime is for "non-essential runtime files such as sockets and named-pipes"
[11:53] <jam> and the lifetime of RUNTIME is bound to the logged in user
[11:53] <jam> definitely not what we want
[11:53] <jam> logging out shouldn't reset your credentials :)
[11:53] <wallyworld> so there be some way of separating user editable stuff from juju stuff
[11:54] <jam> wallyworld: if users are vim ~/*/juju we've probably failed our CLI UX
[11:54] <jam> as in, there may be thing they *could* edit, but we'd really be better off not suggesting they edit anything
[11:54] <jam> (vim is not typesafe)
[11:54] <wallyworld> they need to poentially edit their personal clouds.yaml
[11:54] <jam> wallyworld: we should provide CLI ways to describe a cloud instead
[11:55] <jam> wallyworld: vim won't do syntax checking that the information they type is valid
[11:56] <wallyworld> the spec has an add-cloud command that assumes that a clouds.yaml exists already. we could allow it to be edited using a schema like we will for credentials
[11:57] <wallyworld> that article does make a point that i hadn't considered
[11:58] <jam> I can't say pluom is authoritative, but the XDG spec tells you *what* the variables are, but not why to use them (at least that I've fonud)
[12:00] <wallyworld> +1 to that
[12:01] <wallyworld> ok, we'll look to see how using <data> will turn out, and treat stuff there as needing to be persistent
[13:03] <alexisb> fwereade, ping
[13:16] <perrito666> morning
[13:44] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: you might like this new proposed addition to juju/utils: https://github.com/juju/utils/pull/193/files
[14:35] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, looks nice :)
[14:35] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: thanks :)
[14:36] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, I have a growing number of things to add to juju/utils .. in my abundant free time :)
[14:36] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: :)
[14:36] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: tbh i think we should split it up
[14:36] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, subpackages or subrepos?
[14:37] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: subpackages
[14:37] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, +100
[14:38] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: and it's somewhat criminal that importing juju/utils side-effects http.DefaultClient
[14:39] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, oh.. GetNonValidating.. ?
[14:39] <rogpeppe1> dimitern: no, grep 'func init'
[14:40] <dimitern> rogpeppe1, ah, right :/
[14:41] <frobware> dimitern, dooferlad, voidspace: http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/3648/ -- will do more manual testing, and testing with stakeholders before merging. but a review would help move that forward.
[14:46] <dimitern> frobware, is this the same script as in master?
[14:47] <frobware> dimitern, yep
[14:47] <frobware> dimitern, should be 100% identical. the control happens via cli args.
[14:47] <dimitern> frobware, this line: self.is_active = self.method == "dhcp" or self.method == "static"
[14:48] <dimitern> frobware, reminded me of that case where we have a auto eth0 but manual, which has active, static vlan children
[14:48] <dimitern> frobware, did we do anything about that?
[14:49] <frobware> dimitern, do you have a node to hand that boots with that config?
[14:51] <dimitern> frobware, not now, but IIRC thedac had to deal with something similar in dellstack
[15:01] <frobware> dimitern, that case was covered by https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/4148
[15:02] <mup> Bug #1538583 opened: manual provider add-machine failed in api-command-rename <add-machine> <ci> <manual-provider> <regression> <juju-core:Incomplete> <juju-core api-command-rename:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538583>
[15:02] <mup> Bug #1538589 opened: Container has different subnet <ci> <lxc> <network> <regression> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538589>
[15:03] <dimitern> frobware, right! so we're good then - LGTM I think
[15:09] <frobware> cherylj, can we get a CI build for #1532167  https://github.com/frobware/juju/tree/1.25-lp1532167
[15:09] <mup> Bug #1532167: maas bridge script handles VLAN NICs incorrectly <addressability> <maas-provider> <network> <juju-core:Triaged> <juju-core 1.25:In Progress by frobware> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1532167>
[15:10] <cherylj> abentley, mgz, can we get a CI run on frobware's branch ^^?
[15:10] <cherylj> this is the one that backports the maas-spaces script to 1.25
[15:11] <mgz> cherylj: I'll push it into the juju namespace
[15:11] <cherylj> mgz: thanks!
[15:50] <dimitern> frobware, can you have a look at this org draft - http://paste.ubuntu.com/14679880/
[15:51] <dimitern> frobware, so it came down to a few more things than I originally thought
[15:51] <frobware> dimitern, certainly looks like it.
[15:51] <dimitern> frobware, I can still probably do it by standup time tomorrow, but not today
[15:52] <frobware> dimitern, sure. it's important we get it right.
[15:52]  * voidspace reading
[15:52] <dimitern> voidspace, dooferlad, please have a look as well ^^
[15:52] <voidspace> dimitern: so for maas now the juju user has to tell us what space they want as default (effectively)?
[15:53] <voidspace> dimitern: what about blake's suggestion - bootstrap without constraint and then pick as default the space that we bootstrap to?
[15:53] <voidspace> to me this looks more complex than we *need*, but I'm digesting it properly
[15:53] <voidspace> *still* digesting it properly
[15:54] <dimitern> voidspace, the idea is to use environ constraints for the default, but also (in maas) discover and save the name in state for use in unspec. bindings later
[15:54] <dimitern> voidspace, so it includes what we discussed with blake
[15:55] <dimitern> voidspace, i.e. I think this is the "proper way" to do it, and it's not maas specific
[15:55] <voidspace> dimitern: why do we *need* a different default space and controller space specifications
[15:55] <voidspace> dimitern: can't we initially have just a default one
[15:56] <voidspace> dimitern: or is that just for where controller and specified default *are* different
[15:57] <dimitern> voidspace, they need to be distinct in the general case, as the controller "space" is more like a set of addresses from possibly different subnets in different spaces
[15:57] <voidspace> hmm, doesn't sound like a space at all
[15:57] <dimitern> voidspace, but in the default path, we'll set them to be the same in maas (when you don't give us anything specific)
[15:58] <dimitern> voidspace, it's a space with no subnets, just addresses
[15:58] <dimitern> voidspace, well, we can "invent" subnets like <IP_ADDRESS>/32 strictly speaking
[15:58] <voidspace> dimitern: according to our network model that *isn't* a space, and it would probably be less confusing if we didn't call it a space
[15:58] <dimitern> but that's only internally in juju
[15:59] <dooferlad> dimitern: my problem with it is that you are asking the user for information they may not have, and don't need.
[15:59] <dooferlad> you can, at bootstrap, just get a machine and see what spaces it is in once it has been provisioned (as Blake suggested)
[15:59] <dimitern> voidspace, no, we're not :) we're doing what the user said, if they did - otherwise we pick a sane default (at bootstrap) for both names
[16:00] <voidspace> for maas, network.DefaultSpace is not necessarily a sane default
[16:04] <voidspace> dimitern: if controller space isn't a real space, what's the use case for setting it to a real space? (and your doc says it must be a real space)
[16:04] <voidspace> dimitern: what I'm really trying to say is that I don't understand why we need controller space and what it's for
[16:04] <jcastro> does anyone know where the new account/creds stuff is documented? We want to show juju 2.0 to people at the charm summit but we can't seem to find the docs about like credentials.yaml and friends
[16:04] <voidspace> dimitern: and I still don't think we need it
[16:05] <dimitern> voidspace, because it may very well be a real space, dedicated for juju controllers only, and the user has configured it so it can be accessed from all other spaces
[16:05] <voidspace> dimitern: the only place your doc mentions it being used is for selecting API endpooints
[16:05] <dimitern> and know what they are doing
[16:06] <dimitern> voidspace, that's what we need it for
[16:07] <voidspace> your implementation as described *requires* it to be a real space (we always set it to something), whereas above you stated that it was really just a list of endpoints possibly in different spaces
[16:07] <voidspace> dimitern: the implementation you describe in your doc doesn't permit that - it *must* be a real space
[16:09] <voidspace> surely the only thing we *need* to overcome the existing problem is as follows (I may be wrong):
[16:09] <voidspace> set the juju "default space" to the space from the primary nic of machine-0
[16:10] <voidspace> if the user wants to specify a default space they can, for the moment, specify that space as a bootstrap constraint
[16:10] <voidspace> later on we can add a default space setting
[16:13] <dimitern> the setting is need to store it
[16:13] <dimitern> but it can be just in state, not in env.yaml
[16:13] <voidspace> dimitern: right
[16:13] <voidspace> dimitern: we need to store it
[16:26] <mup> Bug #1538589 changed: Container has different subnet <ci> <lxc> <network> <juju-core:Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538589>
[16:29] <mup> Bug #1538589 opened: Container has different subnet <ci> <lxc> <network> <juju-core:Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538589>
[16:32] <mup> Bug #1538589 changed: Container has different subnet <ci> <lxc> <network> <juju-core:Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538589>
[16:35] <mup> Bug #1538589 opened: Container has different subnet <ci> <lxc> <network> <juju-core:Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538589>
[16:38] <mup> Bug #1538589 changed: Container has different subnet <ci> <lxc> <network> <juju-core:Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538589>
[16:42] <perrito666> could anyone ptal http://reviews.vapour.ws/r/3634/ ?
[16:43] <natefinch> katco, ericsnow: I have to pick up my daughter from school right when our meeting is starting today... can we start 15 minutes late?  We could meet for a while beforehand, if you think we might run out of time.
[16:43] <katco> natefinch: as long as you're available until the meeting is over, that's fine
[16:43] <katco> natefinch: i don't anticipate this one running long
[16:43] <natefinch> katco: ok
[16:45] <natefinch> katco: oh, uh, I just noticed it runs through 5:30... I really kind of have to stop at 5 so I can make dinner for the kids.
[16:45] <katco> natefinch: then we should start on time
[16:45] <natefinch> katco: ok, I'll work it out.
[16:45] <katco> natefinch: i can move it up a little as well if that works for ericsnow
[16:46] <ericsnow> katco: fine with me
[16:46] <katco> natefinch: but that puts you leaving in the middle of it?
[16:53] <katco> natefinch: well, just let me know what works for you.
[16:56] <mup> Bug #1538652 opened: MAAS doesn't assign DHCP IP to new Node and doesn't update DNS table <maas-provider> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538652>
[17:00] <natefinch> katco: I'll just pick up my daughter early, if I can be done at 5.
[17:01] <katco> natefinch: moved it up. we should be done by 5
[17:02] <mup> Bug #1538652 changed: MAAS doesn't assign DHCP IP to new Node and doesn't update DNS table <maas-provider> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538652>
[17:05] <natefinch> katco: sorry, I think I misunderstood.  I was going to pick her up early to make the 2:30 time.... is there a way we can do an hour now-ish and 2 hours from 3-5 my time?  I'm trying to avoid having to pick her up 45 minutes early from school.
[17:06] <katco> natefinch: have you guys figured out resource-get?
[17:06] <natefinch> katco: yeah, lemme give it one last test
[17:08] <mup> Bug #1538652 opened: MAAS doesn't assign DHCP IP to new Node and doesn't update DNS table <maas-provider> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538652>
[17:41] <natefinch> is there a way to force an update-status hook to get fired?
[17:45] <natefinch> hey! it worked
[17:46] <katco> \o/
[17:49] <natefinch> it works better when you don't forget you git stashed your previous bugfix
[17:59] <natefinch> katco: can we meet for an hour now?
[18:00] <katco> natefinch: sorry, i need to run some errands over lunch for the trip
[18:00] <katco> natefinch: this is why things go on the calendar
[18:01] <katco> natefinch: bbiab
[18:38] <voidspace> frobware: dooferlad: the good news is that *only* the maas deploy tests are failing for maas-spaces now: http://reports.vapour.ws/releases/3546
[18:40] <katco> natefinch: ok back. so do you want me to put the meeting back to the original time?
[18:50] <katco> ericsnow: i'm going to push the iteration planning back to its original time. i think natefinch is probably picking up his kiddo atm.
[18:50] <ericsnow> katco: k
[18:59] <natefinch> katco: I'm here
[18:59] <katco> natefinch: k, let's do this
[19:00] <katco> ericsnow: going now after all
[19:00] <ericsnow> katco: k
[19:54] <perrito666> cherylj: ping
[20:00] <cherylj> perrito666: pong
[20:16] <perrito666> cherylj: I have been assigned to https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1472711 and there is mention of work you are doing and I recall ian telling me too that you where doing work on this and that I was to help you
[20:16] <mup> Bug #1472711: MAAS node has "failed deployment", juju just says "pending" when using juju add-machine <cpec> <feature> <landscape> <maas-provider> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472711>
[20:17] <cherylj> perrito666: give me a minute, on a stand up.  I'll let you know what's up with that :)
[20:17] <perrito666> thank you
[20:30] <thumper> sinzui: why do pull requestest for machine-dep-engine keep getting opened and quickly closed?
[20:32] <perrito666> thumper: because this is the bot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z86V_ICUCD4
[20:39] <mup> Bug #1538735 opened: default-series breaks --bootstrap-series <bootstrap> <ci> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538735>
[20:45] <mup> Bug #1538735 changed: default-series breaks --bootstrap-series <bootstrap> <ci> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538735>
[20:45] <sinzui> thumper: I open them, then github points to conflcits :(. We are blocking master so that the version the machine-dep-engine tests remain valid
[20:47] <cherylj> perrito666: the WIP I have for the machine provisioning status is here:   https://github.com/cherylj/juju/tree/new_provisioning_status
[20:48] <mup> Bug #1538735 opened: default-series breaks --bootstrap-series <bootstrap> <ci> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538735>
[20:48]  * perrito666 compares to master
[20:49] <perrito666> cherylj:  so, if I understand this correctly I should continue that work? (I am not all that informed as you can see :p )
[20:49] <cherylj> perrito666: let me talk to wallyworld
[20:50] <perrito666> cherylj: there should be no wallyworld so early :p
[20:50] <cherylj> perrito666: if you are going to take it, I'd want to set up some time to do a walkthrough of the code
[20:50] <cherylj> perrito666: some of it is no longer relevant as we won't be using lxc for containers
[20:51] <cherylj> although, it would need to be translated into lxd since we're going to use the same broker approach
[20:51] <cherylj> so n/m
[20:51] <perrito666> hehe. yeah, so I see the task has some important amount of time assigned and the description is, and I am being literal: "finish observability"
[20:52] <perrito666> I am sure Ian was more descriptive on our meeting but this AM I was not feeling very well and my head dropped a few packages
[20:52] <cherylj> I know that feeling
[21:12] <mup> Bug #1538742 opened: lxc containers stay pending when using maas provider and juju 2.0-alpha1 <cpec> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538742>
[21:15] <mup> Bug #1538742 changed: lxc containers stay pending when using maas provider and juju 2.0-alpha1 <cpec> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538742>
[21:18] <mup> Bug #1538742 opened: lxc containers stay pending when using maas provider and juju 2.0-alpha1 <cpec> <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538742>
[21:52] <jw4> hi juju peeps - is it a dumb question to ask if I can use juju to deploy a group of applications and databases through mesos/marathon?  Seems like juju and marathon/mesos are subtly different enough that there could be good 'synergy' there?
[22:04] <jw4> thanks lazypower
[22:04] <perrito666> cherylj: so I just synced with wallyworld lemme know when you have a moment
[22:04] <lazypower> np o/ :D
[22:06] <cherylj> perrito666: sure, give me a couple minutes to finish a review
[22:18] <marcoceppi> helloooooooooooooo core
[22:19] <marcoceppi> cherylj: is virtual services on the roadmap for 2.0?
[22:23] <alexisb> marcoceppi, no
[22:23] <marcoceppi> ok :(
[23:02] <alexisb> thumper, ping
[23:03] <cherylj> waigani: ping?
[23:03] <waigani> cherylj: pong
[23:03] <cherylj> hey waigani, would you be able to rebase machine-dep-engine?  This should be the last time as we've blocked master
[23:03] <perrito666> nice table tenis game going on here
[23:04] <waigani> cherylj: sure
[23:05] <cherylj> thanks, waigani!
[23:05] <cherylj> waigani: also let me know if it ends up being trivial.  we may be able to skip the test run if it was
[23:05] <waigani> cherylj: okay, will do


[14:46] <BrianHechinger[m> > * <@freenode_OvenWerks:matrix.org> wonders how come everything works for him until someone else uses it.
[14:46] <BrianHechinger[m> Welcome to software development. :)
[23:13] <sirriffsalot> Guys I'm for some mysterious reason again running into this annoying issue where my sound card's inputs are being automatically routed to speakers without my even having done so in carla/jack
[23:14] <sirriffsalot> My guitar is plugged in, but no routing has been done, and I have this silly twangy clean sound going directly into my playback-outputs..
[23:17] <BrianHechinger[m> What sort of audio device? I need to turn off hardware monitor in ffado-mixer for my AudioFire 4
[23:20] <sirriffsalot> BrianHechinger[m: TASCAM US-16x08
[23:21] <sirriffsalot> I think my master left/master right settings in QasMixer were off lol
[23:22] <sirriffsalot> Nah it's still there.. but only on the right now, wtf..
[23:26] <sirriffsalot> Even if I stop jack altogether my guitar still gets routed to my left ear, what in god's name is this
[23:28] <BrianHechinger[m> Yeah, sounds like a hardware monitor
[23:28] <BrianHechinger[m> I don't know anything about the TASCAM stuff
[23:30] <sirriffsalot> Protip: checking the "Mute, 1"... etc for all my inputs in QasMixer solved it for me
[23:30] <sirriffsalot> No idea why it's automatically routing like that, but at least it's gone now, cheers
[23:35] <BrianHechinger[m> Woot!


 that truckla is hilarious.
[17:28] <Eickmeyer> Release candidate build is available at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com
[18:53] <teward> Eickmeyer: be alive
[18:55] <Eickmeyer> ERR:ISOTesting
[18:55] <Eickmeyer> teward: What's up?
 ERR:PENDINGDMBMEETING
 TTM:5MIN
[18:56] <Eickmeyer> Roger that.
[19:05]  * RikMills opens popcorn
[19:18]  * StevenJayCohen asks for popcorn
[19:19] <eylul[m]> also would like some of that popcorn
[19:20] <Eickmeyer> The show is in #ubuntu-meeting
[19:21] <eylul[m]> thanks
[19:25] <Eickmeyer> eylul[m]: for you that would be #freenode_#ubuntu-meeting:matrix.org
[19:26] <Eickmeyer> same with StevenJayCohen ^
[19:27] <eylul[m]> sorry for the slow reactions. dealing with a rl related situation at the same time.
[19:27] <Eickmeyer> No worries.
[19:27] <Eickmeyer> Just nice to see I have a bit of a cheering gallery. :)
[19:46]  * RikMills triggers dramatic music
[20:03] <eylul[m]> \o/ grats Eickmeyer
[20:03] <Eickmeyer> Thanks!!!!
[20:03] <Rosco2> \o/ congrats
[20:04] <RikMills> :D
[20:04] <eylul[m]> (hi ross!)
[20:05] <Rosco2> Hi eylul[m]
[20:05] <eylul[m]> :)
[20:09] <Rosco2> Eickmeyer, the extra packages we need in the package set might already be handled by the diff rafaeldtinoco pasted in the meeting?
[20:10] <Rosco2> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/6VsHCd6cnC/
[20:11] <Eickmeyer> Rosco2: Very likely, but there's a short list they want from me too.
[20:11] <Eickmeyer> Thanks everyone!
[20:12] <Rosco2> Time for a celebratory drink before bed!
[20:12] <Eickmeyer> Haha!
[20:13] <eylul[m]> :D
[20:14] <Eickmeyer> I'm eating lunch. Sun is bright today. :)
[20:15] <eylul[m]> very appropriate
[20:17] <OvenWerks> so the big change in the daily iso is the rc?
[20:18] <OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^
[20:18] <Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: No, it's the Release Candidate.
[20:18] <OvenWerks> rc= release candidate...
[20:18] <Eickmeyer> Ohhhhhh
[20:18] <eylul[m]> laughs
[20:19] <eylul[m]> eickmeyer i think you are excused
[20:19] <Eickmeyer> Basically, there's no difference between the RC and today's iso.
[20:19] <eylul[m]> :P
[20:19] <Eickmeyer> eylul[m]: I'm juggling. :D
[20:19] <OvenWerks> good, I just dl it I will print usb sticks
[20:19] <eylul[m]> print usb sticks?
[20:19] <Eickmeyer> Well, don't be so hasty. They might make changes and respin.
[20:20] <eylul[m]> is confused
[20:20] <Eickmeyer> This is just for testing right now.
[20:20] <Eickmeyer> In fact, I was in the middle of testing the ISO when teward reminded me of the DMB meeting.
[20:21] <Rosco2> I'm off. See you for some testing tomorrow. That was exhausting cheering from the sidelines :-)
[20:21] <teward> heh
[20:21] <Eickmeyer> Hahahaha Rosco2! Thanks for being there.
[20:21] <teward> glad you could stop by though Rosco2 :)
[20:21] <teward> and sorry for dragging you from testing :)
[20:21] <OvenWerks> How di they choose DMB? sounds too much like DuMB meeting
[20:21] <Rosco2> :-)
[20:21] <Eickmeyer> Developer Membership Board. It's nominated/elected by Ubuntu members.
[20:22] <Eickmeyer> Our very own teward is part of it.
[20:38] <StevenJayCohen> Sorry for missing the meeting -- emergency phone call
[20:39] <Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: No worries. I was unanimously voted access to the package set.
[20:40] <StevenJayCohen> Nice