[08:06] <robitaille> @topic
[08:06] <robitaille> @schedule US/Pacific
[08:06] <Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Pacific: 18 Apr 14:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 05:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 06:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 13:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 13:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 05:00: Edubuntu
[08:11] <Toadstool> @schedule Europe/Paris
[08:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 22:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu
[09:03] <Fracture> @schedule Australia/Brisbane
[09:03] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Brisbane: 19 Apr 07:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 22:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 23:30: Xubuntu | 21 Apr 06:00: Dapper Development Status | 26 Apr 06:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 22:00: Edubuntu
[09:27] <neuralis> @schedule new_york
[09:27] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 18 Apr 17:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 09:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 16:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu
[10:05] <Lure> @schedule Europe/Ljubljana
[10:05] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 22:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu
[10:07] <freeflying> @schedule Asia/Shanghai
[10:07] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 19 Apr 05:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 21:30: Xubuntu | 21 Apr 04:00: Dapper Development Status | 26 Apr 04:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu
[04:16] <JaneW>  @schedule South Africa
[04:16] <JaneW> @schedule South Africa
[04:17] <ogra> probably @schedule capetown
[04:17] <JaneW> @schedule Africa/Johannesburg
[04:17] <ogra> hmm
[04:17] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Africa/Johannesburg: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 22:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu
[04:17] <sivang> @schedule Israel
[04:17] <ogra> :)
[04:17] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Israel: 19 Apr 00:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 15:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 16:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 23:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 23:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 15:00: Edubuntu
[04:17] <JaneW> gah 23:00!
[04:17] <JaneW> :/
[04:17] <ogra> nah 21:00
[04:17] <ogra> (UTC)
[04:17] <ogra> ;)
[04:18] <sivang> JaneW: yep :)
[04:18] <JaneW> Schedule for Africa/Johannesburg: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council
[04:18] <sivang> JaneW: we are on the same time zone IIRC
[04:18] <ogra> which is 21:00 UTC
[04:18] <sivang> ogra: this is alredy translted from UTC to ours :)
[04:18] <ogra> sivang, with different DST ?
[04:18] <JaneW> Isreal seesm to be UTC +3
[04:18] <JaneW> we are UTC +2
[04:18] <sivang> IIRC we are also UTC+2
[04:18] <sivang> weird
[04:19] <ogra> @schedule germany/cologne
[04:19] <sivang> JaneW: what time is it now for you ?
[04:19] <ogra> pffffffft !!!
[04:19] <JaneW> sivang: do you have daylight savings?
[04:19] <JaneW> 16:18 here now
[04:19] <sivang> JaneW: yes, alrady enabled
[04:19] <sivang> ah
[04:19] <JaneW> sivang: we don;t
[04:19] <sivang> JaneW: :) so it's ont hour ealier for you
[04:19] <JaneW> we just stay at UTC +2
[04:19] <JaneW> makes things a lot easier
[04:19] <sivang> sure, wish was here as well
[04:19] <ogra> @schedule europe/amsterdam
[04:20] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 22:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu
[04:20] <JaneW> ok well I can't guarrantee to be at CC at 23:00unless I am wanted/needed/bribed
[04:21] <sivang> heh
[04:21] <ogra> JaneW, you have a topic on the agenda (two actually)
[04:26] <JaneW> I do?
[04:26] <ogra> #
[04:26] <ogra> Should we consider applying as a mentoring organization once again for Google's SoC 2006?
[04:26] <ogra>     *
[04:26] <ogra>       [WWW]  http://code.google.com/soc/
[04:27] <ogra> What's the policy for adding people to kubuntu-members and edubuntu-memebers launchpad teams ? jriddell, ogra
[04:29] <sivang> JaneW: I just saw your spec status chang for HUB, I guess I can start relazing now with i abit ;-)
[04:30] <sivang> relaxing, even
[04:43] <JaneW> sivang: yep, it
[04:43] <JaneW> 's really too late now
[04:44] <ogra> not for universe :) but it was too late for main weeks ago already
[04:47] <JaneW> ogra: yes of course, universe is always an option
[04:47] <JaneW> but I meant for dapper main inclusion
[04:47] <ogra> yep
[04:47] <JaneW> which afaik sivang was aiming for
[04:47] <ogra> i just wanted to notify sivang that its still possible ...
[04:47] <ogra> just not for main
[04:48] <JaneW> who put that SoC topic up?
[04:48] <ogra> i didnt
[04:48] <ogra> i thought it was
[04:48] <ogra> you+
[04:48] <ogra> (i'll surely vouch against it as many will)
[04:49] <JaneW> really?
[04:50] <ogra> yep
[04:50] <JaneW> I thought it was pretty much a given that we would participate again
[04:50] <JaneW> and mdz seemed to be in favour too
[04:50] <ogra> we only have 4 months for the upcoming release ...
[04:50] <JaneW> yes and this can help to get more stuff done
[04:50] <ogra> last SoC stole a lot of my time with not much outcome
[04:50] <JaneW> granted time is required for mentoring
[04:51] <JaneW> but the whole point is to help ppl to grow to be able to be useful...
[04:51] <ogra> i'd rather teach some people eager to help with edubuntu how to package than having to fix applications of SoC students that wrote a nice theme for SoC but have no clue
[04:51] <JaneW> additionally I think it would do us a disservice ITO PR to NOT be seen to participate since all the big OSS projects are
[04:52] <ogra> yes, thats why i prefer to support people in *our* community rather tha some random SoC student
[04:52] <JaneW> ogra: we could be more selective this time
[04:52] <JaneW> that was my intention
[04:52] <ogra> the outcome for us willl be far more valuable if we inverst the same time into *our* community
[04:52] <JaneW> we had no interaction with our students before the selection last time, and we asked to change that
[04:53] <JaneW> yes well spacey for one would qualify
[04:53] <ogra> PR is the only advantage i can think about
[04:53] <JaneW> if he cares to apply
[04:53] <JaneW> so like I said we can use it to our advantage
[04:54] <ogra> sure, if we can select people from our community, thats fine ... but i'm sure that will only work if we get enough applicants
[04:54] <JaneW> you have to be a registered student, and older than 18
[04:54] <ogra> s/applicants/applicants from whithin the community/
[04:55] <JaneW> (and some silly rules like you can be in Irna, Iraq, Cuba, North Korea) *rolls eyes*
[04:55] <ogra> anyway, lets keep the discussion for the meeting, i'm sure there will come up more ...
[04:56] <ogra> i'm also not sure thats CC thing at all i'd rather put it under TB
[05:20] <Yagisan> @schedule GMT+10
[05:20] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT+10: 18 Apr 11:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 02:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 03:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 10:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 10:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 02:00: Edubuntu
[05:28] <Klaidas> @schedule GMT+2
[05:28] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT+2: 18 Apr 19:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 10:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 11:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 18:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 18:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 10:00: Edubuntu
[05:28] <Klaidas> cool feature. I didn't know about it :)
[05:29] <Yann2> @schedule GMT+1
[05:29] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT+1: 18 Apr 20:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 11:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 12:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 19:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 19:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 11:00: Edubuntu
[07:21] <Ju> Hi all !
[08:24] <Yann2> @schedule GMT+1
[08:24] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT+1: 18 Apr 20:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 11:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 12:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 19:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 19:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 11:00: Edubuntu
[08:24] <Yann2> Ju > ?
[08:24] <Yann2> it's wrong, isn't it? ^^
[08:32] <mpathy> Hi Seveas..
[08:32] <Seveas> hi
[08:43] <lucas> @schedule Paris
[08:43] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 22:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu
[08:43] <lucas> it's wrong.
[08:44] <Seveas> it's not
[08:44] <lucas> CC meeting is in 2 hours ?
[08:44] <Seveas> and 16 minutes
[08:44] <lucas> ah I misread the topic earlier
[08:54] <mpathy> @schedule Berlin
[08:54] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 22:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu
[08:54] <Yann2> lucas , pv :)
[09:07] <zul> @schedule Ottawa
[09:07] <Yann2> @schedule GMT+2
[09:07] <cbx33> @schedule uk
[09:07] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT+2: 18 Apr 19:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 10:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 11:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 18:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 18:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 10:00: Edubuntu
[09:07] <zul> @schedule Montreal
[09:07] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 18 Apr 17:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 09:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 16:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu
[09:07] <cbx33> @schedule GMT
[09:07] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT: 18 Apr 21:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 12:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 13:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 20:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 20:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 12:00: Edubuntu
[09:08] <juliux> @schedule berlin
[09:08] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 22:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu
[09:08] <cbx33> grrr
[09:08] <cbx33> heheeh
[09:09] <Yann2> @schedule UTC+2
[09:09] <Yann2> @schedule Paris
[09:09] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 22:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu
[09:09] <Yann2> @schedule GMT+2
[09:09] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT+2: 18 Apr 19:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 10:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 11:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 18:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 18:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 10:00: Edubuntu
[09:09] <Yann2> ahem, Paris is UTC+2 isn't it? :s
[09:09] <juliux> Yann2, yes it is utc+2
[09:09] <Yann2> ok :)
[09:10] <juliux> Yann2, berlin is utc+2 and it is now 21:10
[09:57] <cbx33> @schedule
[09:57] <Ubugtu> schedule Retrieve the date/time of scheduled meetings in a specific timezone
[09:57] <cbx33> @schedule GMT
[09:58] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/GMT: 18 Apr 21:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 12:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 13:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 20:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 20:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 12:00: Edubuntu
[10:11] <zul> @schedule Montreal
[10:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 18 Apr 17:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 09:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 16:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu
[10:11] <dholbach> @schedule berlin
[10:11] <Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 18 Apr 23:00: Community Council | 19 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:30: Xubuntu | 20 Apr 22:00: Dapper Development Status | 25 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu
[10:11] <zul> bah...berlin..
[10:11] <juliux> @schedule dresden
[10:11] <juliux> :-(
[10:11] <dholbach> juliux: as if we weren't in the same timezone :)
[10:11] <dholbach> zul: pffffft :)
[10:11] <juliux> dholbach, hehe
[10:12] <ogra> @schedule blankenheim/rohr
[10:12] <juliux> dholbach, here it is east germany ;)
[10:12] <ogra> bah
[10:14] <cbx33> I was here 13 minutes ago ready to start
[10:15] <zul> only?
[10:35] <atie_> hi all
[10:35] <juliux> hi atie_
[10:35] <BlueT_> atie_: yo
[10:36] <atie_> juliux, BlueT_  hi
[10:36] <mitsuhiko> hiho all
[10:36] <atie_> BlueT_, are you gonna apply membership today?
[10:41] <BlueT_> atie_: yes. and sorry for i didn't show up at the last meeting
[10:42] <atie_> BlueT_, good luck. :)
[10:42] <BlueT_> atie_: i almost dead for some personal reason last time.
[10:43] <cbx33> how long does it take before you can apply normally?
[10:43] <BlueT_> atie_: my apologize.
[10:43] <atie_> BlueT_, no... not to me. ^^
[10:44] <Toadstool> hi everybody
[10:45] <Gloubiboulga> evening Toadstool ;)
[10:45] <cbx33> evenin all
[10:45] <BlueT_> Toadstool: moin :)
[10:45] <cbx33> awww don;t be nervous BlueT_
[10:46] <mitsuhiko> 15 minutes countdown :)
[10:47] <juliux> hi rockin_stan
[10:47] <rockin_stan> juliux: hi there ;)
[10:54] <BlueT_> cbx33, mitsuhiko: thanx :)
[10:55] <cbx33> You'll be fine
[10:55] <Bluekuja> hi all
[10:55] <Bluekuja> hi BlueT_
[10:55] <Bluekuja> ;)
[10:55] <cbx33> Hi Bluekuja
[10:55] <BlueT_> what should i prepare for this meeting?
[10:55] <Bluekuja> hey cbx33 :)
[10:55] <BlueT_> Bluekuja: long time no see :D
[10:55] <cbx33> You mean the one that's starting in 5 minutes :p
[10:55] <Bluekuja> yeah hehe
[10:56] <Bluekuja> you are alwais busy
[10:56] <Bluekuja> working
[10:56] <Bluekuja> hehe ;)
[10:56] <BlueT_> Bluekuja: i went to mainland china last week :)
[10:56] <cbx33> crikey :p
[10:56] <Bluekuja> oh really nice
[10:56] <juliux> hi Surfels
[10:56] <Bluekuja> i have to make a trip in china
[10:56] <atie_> BlueT_, 3 lines about your contributions and efforts to Ubuntu.
[10:56] <Surfels> hi
[10:57] <BlueT_> atie_: 3 lines only?!
[10:57] <juliux> hi SHAKAL
[10:57] <Bluekuja> lol
[10:57] <cbx33> BlueT_, see told ya :p
[10:57] <SHAKAL> Hello and good evening from germany community
[10:57] <Bluekuja> hello
[10:57] <SHAKAL> hi juliux
[10:57] <atie_> BlueT_, I know you have more than that... less than 10 lines?
[10:57] <Bluekuja> 3 minutes and we go
[10:58] <BlueT_> atie_: i prepared over 30 lines... lol
[10:58] <Bluekuja> hehe
[10:58] <atie_> BlueT_, lol
[10:58] <Potter> LOL, Jalba.
[10:58] <Jalba> :r
[10:58] <Bluekuja> oh no
[10:58] <cbx33> last minute preparation
[10:58] <Bluekuja> blue_t gone
[10:58] <cbx33> aka briking it :p
[10:59] <Seveas> keep it down please people - no need to clutter the logs
[10:59] <Bluekuja> ok dennis
[10:59] <cbx33> my apologies
[10:59] <Seveas> Kamion, elmo, mako ping
[10:59] <BlueT_> irssi core dumped....  ToT
[11:00] <BlueT_>   4 19 05:00:22 CST 2006
[11:00] <BlueT_> here we go?
[11:00] <Bluekuja> we have to wait the council
[11:00] <Bluekuja> ^^
[11:01] <Bluekuja> ciao matt ;)
[11:01] <mdke> Bluekuja, hi
[11:01] <BlueT_> irssi and gaim crashes oftenly :(
[11:02] <BlueT_> freeflying: yo :D
[11:02] <freeflying> BlueT_: hi
[11:04] <Seveas> --- [elmo]  idle 03:09:21, signon: Sat Mar 25 03:42:13
[11:04] <Seveas> --- [mako]  idle 01:04:46, signon: Wed Apr 12 12:14:24
[11:04] <Seveas> doesn't look too good for quorum...
[11:04] <kjcole> CC meeting, yes?
[11:04] <highvoltage> yep
[11:04] <SHAKAL> Hi Yann2
[11:05] <kjcole> In that case ... ;-)
[11:05] <juliux> hi lucas
[11:05] <mdke> Kamion, are the others coming?
[11:05] <lucasvo> hi juliux
[11:06] <ompaul> hehe
[11:06] <mitsuhiko> Seveas: lol
[11:06] <SHAKAL> hi mitsuhiko
[11:06] <SHAKAL> :)
[11:06] <Razor-X> I'm just here to observ :P.
[11:06] <Razor-X> *observe
[11:06] <cbx33> AndreaVeri, good idea :p
[11:06] <AndreaVeri> ^^
[11:07] <mako> hey all
[11:07] <mako> was at a meeting
[11:07] <AndreaVeri> hi mako
[11:07] <Seveas> hey mako
[11:07] <Toadstool> hi mako
[11:07] <mako> give me a couple minutess
[11:07] <juliux> hi mako
[11:07] <Seveas> you're the first one to arrive
[11:07] <kjcole> Hiya mako
[11:07] <mitsuhiko> hiho mako
[11:07] <lucasvo> juliux: your name sounds like Blocher
[11:07] <lucasvo> :)
[11:07] <juliux> lucas, lol
[11:07] <mako> hmm..
[11:07] <lucasvo> a well known politician in ch ;)
[11:07] <ompaul> mako, good afternoon/evening
[11:07] <mako> alright.. i can sms
[11:08] <highvoltage> hi mako
[11:08] <mako> see if anyone else arrives
[11:08] <elmo> I'm here
[11:08] <AndreaVeri> hi elmo
[11:08] <juliux> hi elmo
[11:08] <ogra> yay, CC appears !
[11:08] <highvoltage> and practically on time!
[11:08] <lucasvo> hi everybody
[11:08] <Seveas> Kamion should be around too, idle time of a few minutes
[11:08] <mitsuhiko> ogra: finally ^^
[11:08] <Seveas> mitsuhiko, they're quite early this time
[11:08] <SHAKAL> Hi ogra
[11:09] <cbx33> evenin ogra
[11:09] <ogra> hey hey
[11:09] <Seveas>
[11:09] <imexius> Salutation from the Thundering Bay
[11:09] <zul> thunder bay?
[11:09] <imexius> yup
[11:09] <zul> cool...my wife went to school there
[11:09] <JaneW> where's that?
[11:09] <tonyyarusso> Nice place.  I'm fond of the whole NW shore.
[11:10] <imexius> Meh its alright, our population has dropped considerably though
[11:10] <JaneW> hi ogra
[11:10] <JaneW> even I made it :)
[11:10] <ogra> hey JaneW
[11:10] <ogra> yeah
[11:10] <Burgwork> imexius, join  #ubuntu-ca
[11:10] <zul> hi JaneW
[11:10] <carthik> JaneW, probably Ontario, Canada
[11:10] <ogra> we're still missing at least one CC member for quorum
[11:11] <JaneW> oh dear
[11:11] <juliux> ogra, i made edubuntu dvd boxes for wiesbaden
[11:11] <JaneW> carthik: oic, thanks
[11:11] <Razor-X> Silicon Valley's youth says ``Hi'' :).
[11:11] <JaneW> juliux: COOL
[11:11] <ogra> juliux, oh, i'm eager to see them :)
[11:11] <JaneW> juliux: what's on them? Extra apps?
[11:11] <Seveas> everyone: yell Kamion, maybe his highlight will explode
[11:11] <Riddell> I could text Kamion
[11:11] <juliux> JaneW, the normal edubuntu dvd image
[11:11] <JaneW> juliux: oh ok
[11:12] <juliux> JaneW, with a nice cover
[11:12] <JaneW> juliux: a newly designed one?
[11:12] <mitsuhiko> .oO(where is smurf)
[11:12] <JaneW> juliux: can we put it on the wiki?
[11:12] <ogra> JaneW, current edubuntu DVD contains live and install iso as well as all of main
[11:12] <tonyyarusso> All right.  We're all wondering where you are Kamion.  Please do grace us with your presence.  :)
[11:12] <Lure> Seveas: Kamion mentioned need for bed in #ubuntu-devel 15 minutes ago...
[11:12] <juliux> JaneW, sure
[11:12] <Seveas> Lure, hmmm
[11:12] <mdke> guys, bear in mind the busy CC people have to read the scrollback, can we try and keep it clean/ontopic for them?
[11:12] <juliux> JaneW, but i have to translate the cover into english
[11:12] <JaneW> juliux: also is it a 6.06 flight or 5.10?
[11:13] <Lure> [22:55]  <Kamion> but I'm exhausted and really need to go to bed soon or I can't be productive tomorrow, so I may need to fall over in the middle
[11:13] <JaneW> juliux: np, german and/or English will be good
[11:13] <juliux> JaneW, 5.10 but we are planing to do a cover vor 6.06
[11:13] <kjcole> hi janew, ogra
[11:13] <Seveas> maybe sabdfl can be found? mako?
[11:13] <elmo> Riddell: please text him
[11:13] <elmo> I've texted sabdfl already
[11:13] <JaneW> mdke: ok sorry
[11:13] <Riddell> elmo: doing
[11:14] <Kamion> I'm on holiday today; I notified last week that I wasn't going to be here
[11:14] <elmo> sabdfl's unavailable - if we can't get hold of colin, we'll have to either postpone, or proceed without voting
[11:14] <Kamion> so please quit pinging me and SMSing me and stuff
[11:14] <Kamion> because I really really really need to crash
[11:14] <Kamion> sorry
[11:15] <mdke> sleep well dude
[11:15] <elmo> Kamion: ok, sorry
[11:15] <ogra> sleep tight
[11:15] <highvoltage> goodnight, Kamion
[11:15] <Kamion> I was just stepping in on #ubuntu-devel to sort out urgent business for the beta
[11:15] <mitsuhiko> Ubugtu: *ping*?
[11:15] <Kamion> sorry, SMSing me is normally fine, just not tonight :)
[11:16] <elmo> mako: what do you want to do - carry on or postpone?
[11:17] <mako> i say we postpone
[11:17] <mako> wel
[11:17] <mako> if kamion can't make it
[11:17] <mako> we can do it later this week if that works better
[11:17] <elmo> mako: kamion can't make it
[11:17] <elmo> it'd have to be friday, tomorrow and thursday are going to be beta-tastic
[11:17] <kjcole> mako: Same Bat-Time, Same Bat-Channel?
[11:18] <elmo> (for at least me and kamion, anyway)
[11:18] <Seveas> friday would be horrific for me :/
[11:18] <mdke> friday is a great day for a party
[11:18] <mdke> but if Seveas can't make it...
[11:18] <Seveas> mdke, i'm not important, I'll just have to postpone my agenda items
[11:19] <ompaul> Seveas, I can carry it
[11:19] <Seveas> ompaul, I really want to be there too
[11:19] <ompaul> hehe
[11:19] <elmo> mako: how about this, we'll postpone for now and try and reschedule ASAP, the earliest being Friday - I'll mail us 4 and try and coordinate a date/time?
[11:20] <tonyyarusso> Are weekends considered off-limits for working?
[11:20] <eyequeue> my apologies for being late, problems at the doctor's office
[11:20] <mako> that sounds fine
[11:20] <Yann2> maybe it would be a good idea if CC-people could indicate on the CCAgenda if they can make it or not?
[11:20] <mako> i'm not entirely sure what my schedule will look like but it will work
[11:21] <elmo> ok - sorry everyone who turned up, but without quorum, there's not much point in proceeding
[11:21] <cbx33> Yann2, sound like a good idea - I had to pull strings to get here today
[11:21] <JaneW> who placed the Google SoC agenda item?
[11:21] <cbx33> elmo, indeed...no worries
[11:21] <elmo> Yann2: probably yes, we also need a 5th CC member to make quorum less of an issue - we're working on it
[11:21] <atie_> postponing happened before?
[11:22] <highvoltage> once, iirc
[11:22] <lucasvo> JaneW: https://launchpad.net/people/dennis
[11:22] <elmo> we'll put the new/time of the meeting on the CommunityCouncilAgenda wiki page
[11:22] <lucasvo> aka Seveas
[11:22] <elmo> if you want/need to be at the meeting, keep an eye on that
[11:22] <tonyyarusso> elmo: Any idea by when?
[11:22] <BlueT_> so, there's no meeting today?
[11:22] <Seveas> lucasvo, nope
[11:22] <mdke> BlueT_, that's right
[11:22] <Seveas> it wasn't me
[11:22] <Yann2> elmo > I mean, if cc staff "subscribed" to a meeting, we could know earlier if 5 people can make it or not?
[11:22] <elmo> tonyyarusso: as soon as I can get agreement from at least 3 people
[11:22] <mdke> JaneW, we can look at the page history, hang on
[11:22] <mitsuhiko> ...
[11:22] <tonyyarusso> elmo: Ah, right.
[11:22] <lucasvo> Seveas: oh, sorry, yes, you are the one with ircrules
[11:22] <mitsuhiko> Yann2: same question here
[11:22] <mdke> JaneW, PierreSlamich
[11:22] <lucasvo> Seveas: I've misread that one :)
[11:23] <BlueT_> mdke: it's 05:22am here. i haven't sleep waiting for this meeting XD
[11:23] <JaneW> mdke: oh thanks
[11:23] <elmo> mm, Mark may be coming.  one second
[11:23] <JaneW> cos as it stands we have already registered as a mentor organisation again (still being processed)
[11:23] <JaneW> we just need to figure out how much of a commitment we can make to it
[11:23] <AndreaVeri> it would be very nice if mark will be here
[11:24] <Seveas> AndreaVeri, cross your fingers
[11:24] <AndreaVeri> haha yeah
[11:24] <BlueT_> cbx33: that's ok!
[11:24] <mitsuhiko> sabdfl go
[11:24] <mitsuhiko> sabdfl go
[11:24] <mitsuhiko> ^^
[11:24] <BlueT_> cbx33: but i'm affraid maybe i couldn't appear this weekend
[11:24] <AndreaVeri> seveas is really excited using that emoticon after something
[11:24] <AndreaVeri> eheh
[11:25] <cbx33> BlueT_, nooooooo
[11:25] <BlueT_> cbx33: coz i'll be at Kenting (another city) this weekend
[11:25] <cbx33> awww that sux
[11:26] <ompaul> AndreaVeri, we have defined it as over happy dutch person on irc, however as with all these things it has become broader with time  ;-)
[11:26] <SHAKAL> hi or wb smurf
[11:26] <SHAKAL> ;)
[11:26] <AndreaVeri> haha :)
[11:26] <juliux> hi smurf
[11:27] <smurf> *sigh* sorry for being late
[11:27] <elmo> riddell/ogra: here?
[11:27] <ogra> yep
[11:27] <elmo> while we're waiting for our slac^Wfearless leader, I can probably answer your question about {k,ed}ubuntu teams
[11:28] <mitsuhiko> smurf: we havn't started
[11:28] <Riddell> elmo: hi
[11:28] <ogra> i just want to know how much power^Wresponsibility we'll get in that process
[11:28] <mitsuhiko> one cc member still missing
[11:28] <elmo> the policy is basically that the CC is delegating membership management of those teams to you (the team leaders)
[11:28] <elmo> however, you should use the same guidelines for membership that we do, i.e. sustained useful contributions
[11:29] <ogra> so we act as a full CC replacement, with all responsibilitys and users are required to have the same reputation as in the CC meeting to get approval
[11:29] <ogra> yeah
[11:29] <elmo> not the same responsibilities, exactly, no
[11:29] <ogra> (sorry lagging here)
[11:29] <elmo> problems etc., dispute resolution and other CC like stuff still gets punted up to the CC
[11:29] <ogra> sure
[11:29] <cbx33> sounds fair and means standards will be maintained throughout
[11:29] <elmo> but in terms of adding (and I guess removing) members, day to day, that's entirely on you
[11:29] <ogra> i was only talking wrt membership
[11:30] <elmo> yeah
[11:30] <ogra> opk
[11:30] <ogra> err
[11:30] <ogra> ok
[11:30] <elmo> Riddell: that ok/clear enough for you too?
[11:30] <ogra> i just wanted an official statement, i was suspecting it that way (as Riddell was i think)
[11:30] <Riddell> yeah, although I worry for when there's a decision where not all kubuntu contributors agree with my decision
[11:31] <sabdfl> evening all
[11:31] <juliux> hi sabdfl
[11:31] <mako> evening
[11:31] <lucasvo> ah here he comes!
[11:31] <Seveas> Riddell, then they can bring it to the CC
[11:31] <ogra> Riddell, you'll need to build a kubuntu council then
[11:31] <mitsuhiko> yay :)
[11:31] <Riddell> but we have kubuntu meetings as a first line for that and I guess CC as a second
[11:31] <mitsuhiko> hiho sabdfl :)
[11:31] <Toadstool> hi sabdfl :)
[11:31] <sabdfl> apologies for being late
[11:31] <kjcole> hi sabdfl
[11:31] <sabdfl> i only have a short time this evening
[11:31] <elmo> Riddell: right, you can punt it up to the CC if you're not comfortable/confident in your decision
[11:31] <AndreaVeri> hello sabdfl!!!
[11:31] <sabdfl> mako!
[11:31] <ogra> hey sabdfl
[11:31] <sabdfl> sec while i pull up the agenda
[11:32] <SHAKAL> Hi sabdfl
[11:32] <BlueT_> hi sabdfl
[11:32] <mako> not a problem
[11:32] <mako> i got a bit distracted in the last few minutes.. let me put stuff aside
[11:33] <sabdfl> mako: where are you in the agenda now?
[11:33] <mako> we haven't started
[11:33] <mako> although elmo was talking with folks
[11:33] <mako> Kamion isn't here so we weren't quorate
[11:33] <elmo> mako/sabdfl: I was just discussing {k,ed}ubuntu-members with ogra/riddell - we haven't touched the rest of the agenda yet
[11:33] <sabdfl> ok, quorate we now be
[11:34] <sabdfl> ok
[11:34] <sabdfl> thanks elmo
[11:34] <sabdfl> i'm afraid i'm going to duck out in about half an hour
[11:34] <sabdfl> so can i ask that we focus on the policy issues first?
[11:34] <mako> alright..
[11:34] <mako> the ones that need voting in particular
[11:34] <mako> then see how far we can get through the member candidates
[11:35] <JaneW> the Google SoC issue may not be relevant, we have signed up already...
[11:35] <mako> alright
[11:35] <ogra> and it would rather be a TB thing
[11:35] <mako> lets waste no time
[11:35] <mako> IRC rules
[11:35] <mako> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcRules
[11:36] <Seveas> I drafted the IRC rules for the reasons mentioned in the intro of that page
[11:36] <Seveas> they reflect the current policy
[11:36] <Seveas> and it would be nice to get an official 'OK'
[11:37] <Seveas> or comments about why that can't happen
[11:37] <mdke> one minor point on that page, I feel that the phrase "Do not recommend outdated and bad information" might be put a little bit too high. It smacks a little bit of elitism to me.
[11:37] <elmo> yeah, the whole page could do with some TLC, phrasing wise
[11:37] <Seveas> mdke, I don't see it that way - it won't help people to give them bad advise
[11:37] <Seveas> elmo: TLC?
[11:38] <tonyyarusso> Maybe more along the lines of "Try to avoid..., and use newer information when available"?
[11:38] <mdke> tender loving care
[11:38] <sabdfl> good job in general, though, and thanks seveas
[11:38] <mako> right, that paragraph is a bit strange
[11:38] <sabdfl> i'd prefer guidelines to rules
[11:38] <sabdfl> most of them are advisory, in any event
[11:38] <tonyyarusso> They definitely seem solid so far.
[11:38] <Seveas> sabdfl, I use guidelines everywhere in the page, except the name
[11:38] <mdke> Seveas, as I mentioned however in my email, "bad advice" is subjective. One of the examples you give there is in our desktop guide shipped with Dapper, for example
[11:38] <mako> also because it lists a number of very specific documents
[11:38] <mako> which will be incomplete
[11:38] <sabdfl> it's great to have a concrete place to point people when questions come up
[11:38] <mako> and could, with future revisions of said documents, become inaccurate
[11:38] <Seveas> mdke, I call that a bug in the docs, but let's not argue about that here
[11:39] <Seveas> (I mean that specific example)
[11:39] <sabdfl>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductGuidelines
[11:39] <sabdfl> do you expect these to be linked from there?
[11:39] <mdke> Seveas, as I say, it's subjective.
[11:39] <Seveas> sabdfl, that page is quite empty now
[11:40] <mako> Seveas: that much is clear
[11:40] <sabdfl>  http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
[11:40] <sabdfl> it should be linked from the bottom of that page
[11:40] <elmo> fwiw, they're ok by me (as guidelines, as sabdfl says), but I'd like to go over the wording of the document with seveas later and out of band
[11:41] <sabdfl> do you guys think we should adopt these through some broader process (members vote?) or just CC +1?
[11:41] <topyli> maybe cursing and touchy subjects should not be directed from #ubuntu to #ubuntu-offtopic (even with the advice to be considerate there too in parenthesis)
[11:41] <mako> i share mdke's critique and think that the prohibition on "bad" advice is worrisome
[11:41] <mdke> #ubuntu often gets a reputation (probably unjustly) as elitist and it's important that it is _seen_ not to be, as well as in reality. So a page like that needs to be just right
[11:41] <cbx33> May I ask is there a policy on top-posting, several of the other mailing lists I am a member of insist on not topposting
[11:41] <Razor-X> What if outdated advice is unintentional?
[11:41] <smurf> sabdfl: CC
[11:41] <sabdfl> cbx33: a set of mailing list guidelines would be equally useful, but right now we are focused on Seveas' Irc ones
[11:41] <Seveas> mdke, the only times I heared of #ubuntu being elitist is from you
[11:41] <mako> cbx33: no, that general nettiquitte but this is offtopic now
[11:41] <mdke> Seveas, you don't read the forums much, I guess
[11:42] <mako> Seveas: read the forums
[11:42] <kjcole> What I see there seems general common sense and courtesy, although it would be nice to know that newbies are either cut some slack or required to read guidelines before arriving.
[11:42] <cbx33> mako, over and out
[11:42] <mdke> the best way to deal with dubious advice, is to politely give alternatives, rather than prohibit things a priori
[11:42] <ompaul> topyli, the first is not the second is to move offside from a support context where it does not belong
[11:42] <tonyyarusso> We do frequently end up with cursing in offtopic b/c people think anything goes there.
[11:42] <mako> lets stay focused on these guidelines please
[11:43] <sabdfl> i agree with mako, elmo, mdke that the "don't give bad advice" item should come out
[11:43] <mdke> calling them "guidelines" would solve a lot, I think
[11:43] <mako> Seveas: i don't think any document of this sort should single out particular technologies or documents
[11:43] <kjcole> (I say that because what is common sense to regulars is not always common sense to newcomers: e.g. away messages.)
[11:44] <Seveas> mako, in the "don't give bad advise" they're not singled out, they're just examples
[11:44] <mako> actually, i don't think the whole item should go out
[11:44] <smurf> is that bad as in just-possibly-wrong, or bad as in intentionally-misleading?
[11:44] <mako> just "    *
[11:44] <mako>       Do not recommend outdated and bad information such as ubuntuguide.org or bad solutions such as using install-css.sh from libdvdread, running java-installer.bin files directly or using automatix. For all these things there are much safer alternatives available.
[11:44] <tonyyarusso> Softening the wording or title would sit better with me too, I think.  Not lots, just carefully in spots like that.
[11:44] <lucasvo> kjcole: you'll learn it after you get kicked once :)
[11:44] <mako> i'd advocate removing that bit only
[11:44] <mako> Seveas: right, i understand that
[11:44] <mdke> smurf, the former, as I understand the page
[11:44] <sabdfl> i don't think this document should get into specifics like automatix
[11:44] <mako> Seveas: but they under-represent and, with time, may also over-represent
[11:44] <kjcole> lucasvo: School of Hard Knocks?  Point taken. ;-)
[11:44] <sabdfl> i prefer this as an "addendum and clarification to the code of conduct as applied to IRC conversations"
[11:44] <mako> if nothing else, it makes things fragile
[11:44] <mdke> sabdfl, absolutely not. There is no need for high level documents to rub people up the wrong way ;)
[11:45] <Razor-X> I know I have referred outdated solutions in #ubuntu on accident, then corrected by someone else, so I think there is some danger there.
[11:45] <lucasvo> kjcole: and newbies should read the guidelines
[11:45] <mako> Seveas: in any case, better not to enshire particular documents as bad examples in this way
[11:45] <sabdfl> i like the idea of having a set of these documents, for IRC, mailing lists, the forums, the wiki... best practices for communicating
[11:45] <Seveas> to sum it up: soften the wording and be careful with examples
[11:45] <mako> Seveas: well, the rest of it seems great
[11:45] <sabdfl> yes, but in general +1 and thanks!
[11:45] <mindspin> yup
[11:45] <Seveas> I'll do that and get back later
[11:46] <Seveas> let's waste no more time with it
[11:46] <mako> a'ight
[11:46] <tonyyarusso> Seveas: Sounds reasonable to me.
[11:46] <mdke> mako/others, by the way, I wrote up a mailing list equivalent, if you can check it out when you're free, that would be lovely (wiki:Listiquette)
[11:46] <sabdfl> Seveas: if you make placeholders for: IrcGuidelines, ForumGuidelines, MailingListGuidelines...
[11:46] <tonyyarusso> Good job though on that draft.
[11:46] <smurf> I'd change (or amend) that to specifically prohibit intentionally-misleading "advice"
[11:46] <carthik> A general note to register with #freenode, and about PMs received from the bot would be nice (esp. ubotu's PMs)
[11:46] <kjcole> lucasvo: In the chaos that is "wiki" one doesn't always arrive at things in logical order.  (I imagine it's easy to find how to get to an IRC channel before one is aware of a guidelines page.)
[11:47] <kjcole> In any case +1
[11:47] <Seveas> mdke, you know my mail address
[11:47] <tonyyarusso> smurf: Second that, rm -rf / should probably be dealt with more strongly.
[11:47] <mdke> Seveas, yes. Why?
 mako/others, by the way, I wrote up a mailing list equivalent, if you can check it out when you're free, that would be lovely (wiki:Listiquette)
[11:47] <Seveas> (missed the url, so ignore me)
[11:48] <lucasvo> kjcole: it is still a draft. if it is final it should be a static html page
[11:48] <Seveas> can we move on?
[11:48] <sabdfl> yes please
[11:48] <sabdfl> whats the cloaking issue?
[11:49] <mako> sabdfl: do you remember the old cloaking discussions?
[11:49] <Seveas> sabdfl, you specifically said: "only ubunyu/member cloaks" - freenode however requests (not demands) for bots to be recognizable as bots, so ubuntu/bot/* would be nice
[11:49] <mako> this sounds totally reasonable
[11:49] <mdke> sounds like a plan
[11:49] <mako> thumbs up from me
[11:49] <sabdfl> +1
[11:49] <ompaul> +1
[11:50] <smurf> good idea; locobot should get that too
[11:50] <tonyyarusso> Makes sense here.
[11:50] <mitsuhiko> smurf: +1 ^^
[11:50] <sabdfl> yowser that was easy :-)
[11:50] <mako> elmo: ?
[11:50] <mdke> and fabio's bot too
[11:50] <Seveas> smurf, what's his registered nick?
[11:50] <sabdfl> SOC2k6?
[11:50] <mako> we can skip that
[11:50] <mako> since we are alreasy signed up apparently
[11:50] <mako> according to JaneW
[11:50] <elmo> yeah, that's obviously fine
[11:51] <smurf> Seveas: not yet, actually; I'll register them and ping you
[11:51] <Seveas> smurf, link all nicknames together please
[11:51] <mako> ok the next discussion in regards to kubuntu.de proposes discussing it later
[11:51] <smurf> Seveas: sure
[11:51] <JaneW> yep
[11:51] <mako> like at the end of the meeting
[11:51] <AndreaVeri> ok mako
[11:51] <sabdfl> erk... i'd like to comment briefly, and won't be here much longer
[11:51] <smurf> mako: why?
[11:51] <mako> smurf: i don't know why
[11:52] <highvoltage> mdke: i nearly read that as "23:50 < mdke> and fabio's bot too
[11:52] <smurf> sabdfl: +1
[11:52] <mako> smurf: that what it says on the agenda :)
[11:52] <highvoltage> mdke: i mean "and fabio's hot too" :)
[11:52] <juliux> mako, but it is very important
[11:52] <mako> listen, i'm not arguing in favor of this
[11:52] <mako> i'm just reading the agenda
[11:52] <AndreaVeri> mako can we move to things that need vote?
[11:52] <sabdfl> i think the person just didn't want to interrupt the membership discussions, but this is an important thing and we should discuss it now
[11:52] <mako> alright
[11:53] <sabdfl> ok, let me call for comments, one per person, say done when done, pretype them please!
[11:53] <sabdfl> who has something to say on the kubuntu.de process and outcome?
[11:53] <mako> i just want to make sure we spend quorate time on stuff that may lead to a vote
[11:54] <lucasvo> am I right that they "sold" their site to a company that sells support?
[11:54] <Seveas> sabdfl, /me
[11:54] <sabdfl> folks, msg me if you want to comment, i'll then call per person, so we get to everyone
[11:54] <Riddell> I'm working with german kubuntu users to get a new website happening, probably closely affiliated to ubuntuusers.de
[11:54] <sabdfl> smurf
[11:55] <smurf> my main problem with the whole kubuntu.de mess is that questions to amu as to why he hasn't brought the issue before the CC have been met with ... silence
[11:55] <sabdfl> ok
[11:55] <smurf> plus, kubuntu.de no redirects to ubunux.de which is silent on the problem too
[11:55] <sabdfl> tonyyarusso:
[11:55] <tonyyarusso> I think looking into getting domain names would be a good idea.
[11:55] <sabdfl> pregetting them?
[11:56] <tonyyarusso> Yes.  To avoid future issues.
[11:56] <sabdfl> mdke: go
[11:56] <mdke> the kubuntu.de thing was a mess, but there is nothing that the CC can do about community members who fail to approach the matter through the correct channels. I've been happy that so far I haven't seen that their "ransom" has not received any attention from official channels, it doesn't deserve it.
[11:56] <mdke> more should be done to integrate kubuntu and ubuntu locoteams though
[11:56] <sabdfl> Seveas: go
[11:56] <Seveas> sabdfl, +1 on mdke's comment about not bringing to the CC
[11:56] <Seveas> nothing else
[11:56] <sabdfl> mitsuhiko: go
[11:57] <ompaul> sabdfl,
[11:57] <mitsuhiko> the main problem was that ubuntu and kubuntu teams don't work together on the german side
[11:57] <mitsuhiko> now the whole kubuntu.de is down and users stand and ask what to do now
[11:57] <sabdfl> highvoltage: go
[11:57] <mitsuhiko> it would be good if ubuntuusers.de would integrate kubuntu more
[11:57] <mitsuhiko> !done
[11:57] <smurf> some people seem to think that KDE people will run away screaming when they are 'forced' to support users in a forum where Gnome is also mentioned occasionally :-/
[11:57] <highvoltage> well, on that issue, I wrote this blog entry: http://jonathancarter.co.za/blog/?postid=27
[11:57] <rockin_stan> mitsuhiko: +1
[11:57] <mdke> i agree with mitsuhiko
[11:58] <highvoltage> i felt that the issue was bordering on extortion, although i won't mention names or specific incidents.
[11:58] <sabdfl> ok, mako, elmo?
[11:58] <highvoltage> done;
[11:58] <smurf> AFAIR tat was cited as one of the main reasons why there is/was/??? a kubuntu.de domain in the first place
[11:58] <mdke> sabdfl, another quick comment here
[11:59] <sabdfl> go ahead mdke
[11:59] <mdke> recently the italian locoteam (today) has discussed the possibility of integrating edubuntu initiatives into the ubuntu-it community structure, we feel it can be done easily, as with kubuntu. the same locoteam can deal with more than one derivative, with shared resources and/or separate websites.
[12:00] <mako> so i agree with mitsuhiko and mdke for the most part..
[12:00] <sabdfl> i think that's everyone who /msg'd me
[12:00] <mako> i think there are some interesting unaddressed questions about where loco teams stands in the kubuntu/ubuntu divide
[12:00] <mako> and in terms of actually doing things
[12:00] <mako> some questions i don't know the answers to in regards to the trademark
[12:00] <Yann2> agree with what has been said until now, too... have been really pleased canonical didn't gave it much attention.
[12:00] <mako> and canonical's role
[12:01] <sabdfl> yes, there's an ambiguity in "ubuntu the overall umbrella project" and "ubuntu the gnome desktop distro that is a peer of kubuntu the kde desktop distro"
[12:01] <mako> and the degree to which canonical will jump if the CC says to jump :)
[12:01] <ogra> edubuntu is happy about every loco portal that includes sopptort for it (as a sidenote, since edubuntu was mentioned a lot in the kubuntu.de argument)
[12:01] <ogra> *support
[12:01] <mdke> sabdfl, only one way to solve that one ;)
[12:01] <smurf> mako: the German team's position is that we support both equally, even if our site's look+feel is geared more towards the Gnome side.
[12:01] <sabdfl> gubuntu?
[12:01] <mdke> heh
[12:01] <mako> sabdfl: time to throw away the gnome distribution
[12:01] <sabdfl> :-p
[12:01] <mako> ok everyone
[12:01] <mdke> lol
[12:01] <mako> compromise, ion3
[12:01] <mitsuhiko> rofl
[12:02] <ompaul> -1
[12:02] <ogra> mako, lol
[12:02] <sabdfl> ok, folks, order
[12:02] <sabdfl> it's interesting how this varies from country to country
[12:02] <mako> it's not clear to me WHAT we can do it about
[12:02] <sabdfl> i think germany is special w.r.t. kde
[12:02] <ompaul> sabdfl, may I on the kubuntu issue?
[12:02] <mako> or what the CC is being asked to do
[12:02] <sabdfl> does anyone know what the current status is of Amu and \sh's feelings, or position?
[12:02] <mako> other than try to prevent it in the future
[12:02] <mako> which is most of what i've gotten out of this
[12:03] <xorAxAx> .oO(twm)
[12:03] <juliux> sabdfl, amu has canceld the kubuntu booth at the linuxtag in wiesbaden
[12:03] <mitsuhiko> sabdfl: they arn't rachable currently via jabber or irc
[12:03] <sabdfl> ok
[12:03] <mitsuhiko> \sh is in a bad situation currently
[12:03] <smurf> sabdfl: they're not talking to people who bring the issue before the CC, as far as I know
[12:03] <mitsuhiko> and amu isn't responsable
[12:03] <Lure> \sh was online yesterday in #kubuntu-devel
[12:03] <mitsuhiko> we just know that the booth was canceled
[12:03] <smurf> mitsuhiko: not responding, you mean
[12:03] <sabdfl> well, first mdke is spot on in asking how this blew up into a canonical issue before it became a CC issue
[12:03] <mitsuhiko> smurf: jep :)
[12:04] <mindspin> will kubuntu be presented by the german ubuntu team?
[12:04] <highvoltage> i've seen \sh on -motu and -devel yesterday, he seemed to be involved, although I couldn't say for sure
[12:04] <Riddell> mindspin: I don't know of any developer who's going
[12:04] <mitsuhiko> mindspin: juliux is looking for some guys to present kubuntu there
[12:04] <juliux> mindspin, if we find kubuntuusers they can present kubuntu at the ubuntu community booth at the linuxtag in wiesbaden
[12:04] <mindspin> I#ll mail you
[12:04] <sabdfl> let's deal separately with the linuxtag booth
[12:05] <mdke> maybe in another channel
[12:05] <sabdfl> where is the "heart and mind" of the kubuntu german community?
[12:05] <Razor-X> I think we should maybe try for better cooperation between Ubuntu and Kubuntu in general. I think it may benefit the community more if we do more to make it all seem unified with slight differences, if I may be so audacious to say.
[12:05] <mitsuhiko> sabdfl: currently #kubuntu-de
[12:05] <mitsuhiko> they lost their webpage


[02:18] <airtonix> so last week, i was happily using gedit to edit files through ssh to a server. today, i do the same, happily enter ssh://servername in the nautilus address bar, it loads i see files, select one and start editing with gedit... much joy
[02:19] <airtonix> except when i go to shift+ctrl search... it tells me ~/.gvfs/servername does not exist
[02:21] <twb> airtonix: GUIs are off-topic for this channel.  Try #ubuntu.
[02:22] <airtonix> i thought it might be a server related issue
[02:22] <airtonix> since you know... ssh-server is involved
[02:22] <airtonix> apparentyl ssh-server is not in any way related
[02:24] <twb> It sounds like a client-side issue
[02:31] <ntoombs> I have installed LAMP on my ubuntu server and I cannot connect to it on port 80. I have forwarded port 80 and the port check tool I am using says 80 is closed.  I have also forwarded ports 22 and 8080 to ensure that port forwarding is working and it is. I edited the /etc/apache2/ports.conf file to listen to port 8080 as well as port 80. When I ask someone to connect using address:80 they can't see anything. But when I ask so
[02:32] <ntoombs> generated by my apache2 server. I can connect to everything localy just fine so I know the server itself is working. I have asked my ISP if they block port 80 and they said no. I called my router manufacturer today for 4 long hours to see if they could figure out why port 80 wasn't working and they couldn't solve it.
[02:34] <ntoombs> So my question would be this... with this information of things I've already tried, how do I get port 80 to work with my LAMP web server?
[02:35] <twb> ntoombs: pastebin the output of "netstat -nlp"
[02:37] <ntoombs> http://pastebin.com/ZX2TJFGe
[02:38] <jmarsden> ntoombs: apache is not listening on port 80 on your server.
[02:38] <jmarsden> It is listening on port 8080, which probably means you messed with its configuration?
[02:39] <ntoombs> my  /etc/apache2/ports.conf file has it set to listen to port 80 and port 8080
[02:39] <jmarsden> Why?  Just    sudo tasksel install lamp-server     # gets you a running apache on port 80.
[02:40] <ntoombs> because at first port 80 wasn't working so i set it to listen to both ports to make sure apache could actually listen to anything
[02:40] <jmarsden> How about not trying stuff you don't fully understand, and fixing the real issue instead? :)
[02:41] <jmarsden> Can you uninstall the lamp setup and start over?
[02:41] <ntoombs> And i just checked that file and apache2 wasn't listening to port 80
[02:41] <ntoombs> jmarsden: that's why i'm here
[02:41] <ntoombs> but i only come here as a last resort
[02:41] <ntoombs> i like to figure stuff out on my own. can you respect that?
[02:41] <jmarsden> OK, so uninstall all the LAMP stuff and then do    sudo tasksel install lamp-server
[02:41] <jmarsden> and nothing else.
[02:42] <ntoombs> ok
[02:45] <jmarsden> With a freshly installed, default, unchanged lamp-server installed, you can do   wget -q -O - http://localhost     to see if it is listening on port 80.
[02:52] <ntoombs> jmarsden: done and the wget command just outputs the contents of the index.html file
[02:53] <jmarsden> Right, so it is working.
[02:53] <jmarsden> So now checj your port 80 forwarding and all will be fine.
[02:54] <ntoombs> it's not
[02:54] <ntoombs> the port check tool says port 80 is closed
[02:55] <jmarsden> I have no idea what a port check tool is.  What does      sudo netstat -ntlp | grep :80     output now?  Should be just one line.
[02:56] <ntoombs> http://pastebin.com/QtHNcdyq
[02:56] <jmarsden> OK, cool.
[02:57] <jmarsden> So, this server is on a local LAN, I take it.  Can you browse to it from any other local PC on that LAN and see the index.html contents?
[02:57] <ntoombs> lan yes wan no
[02:58] <jmarsden> OK, so then the issue is in the router, not the server.  Are you sure the server is forwarding port 80 to the correct local IP?
[02:58] <ntoombs> yes everything but port 80 forwarded to that address works
[02:58] <Delerium_> ISP blocking port 80 ?
[02:58] <ntoombs> they say no
[02:59] <ntoombs> but i may call them again to double check
[02:59] <jmarsden> Then this is no longer a Ubuntu server issue... either the ISP is blocking it and lying about it, or else you made a mistake somewhere in the router config.
[02:59] <lifeless> serge_: hi
[02:59] <lifeless> serge_: lxc appears to reset the sudo timeout :)
[02:59] <lifeless> serge_: I think there is some crossover
[03:00] <ntoombs> jmarsden: i spent 4 hours today speaking to netgear support and they said the same thing about ubuntu and my isp
[03:00] <jmarsden> So... sounds like your ISP is lying to you!
[03:00] <ntoombs> probably
[03:00] <ntoombs> i'll check
[03:16] <twb> ntoombs: which ISP?
[03:16] <ntoombs> windstream
[03:16] <twb> Dunno them, sorry.
[03:20] <Delerium_> ntoombs, You can always try to ask on the DSLReports.com : http://www.dslreports.com/forum/windstream
[03:20] <ntoombs> ok I'll try that.
[03:21] <ntoombs> are you sure it's not a problem with ubuntu?
[03:21] <ntoombs> or more specifically the lamp server
[03:22] <Delerium_> No. I'm not.  But since port 80 is listening, wget is working (like jmarsden says) ...   I assume it's something that will be solved when user namespaces are sufficiently completed to be used in lxc.  (I think I just hit a new milestone on those at git://kernel.ubuntu.com/serge/userns-2.6, but still quite some time before they're ready)
[04:30] <ntoombs> he still couldn't figure out why port 80 won't work
[04:30] <twb> ntoombs: hmm?
[04:31] <ntoombs> every port i open for the server (22 and 8080) works but port 80 doesn't
[04:31] <twb> ntoombs: you are nmapping from somewhere outside your network?
[04:31] <ntoombs> no
[04:31] <twb> Do so
[04:31] <ntoombs> but i am checking open ports outside my network
[04:32] <ntoombs> http://www.isup.me/ with my ip address
[04:32] <ntoombs> and http://www.yougetsignal.com/tools/open-ports/ for open ports
[04:33] <twb> Well, I don't trust some website's say-so
[04:33] <twb> I know nmap works
[04:33] <ntoombs> i've had multiple friends try to connect too
[04:34] <jmarsden> ntoombs: So... it sounds like nothing has changed, your ISP is still possibly lying to you, or your router is misconfigured.
[04:35] <ntoombs> jmarsden: it still remains that lamp is the most complicated piece of the puzzle. I've checked with my isp multiple times to make sure port 80 is open and looked on the internet to double check. I've had multiple hour long conversaitons with my router manufacturer to ensure i have configured the router correctly.
[04:36] <jmarsden> ntoombs: lamp is very well tested.    sudo tasksel install lamp-server    works.
[04:36] <ChmEarl> ntoombs, give me your IP so I can test
[04:36] <jmarsden> If you suspect the router, replace it or bypass it.  If you suspect your ISP is lying, get a different ISP.
[04:37] <ntoombs> ChmEarl: doesn't sound like a very smart thing to do tbh
[04:37] <jmarsden> ntoombs: If you really think ssh is so much simpler and less buggy than apache, run your openssh server on port 80 and see if you can ssh to it...
[04:38] <ntoombs> but ssh doesn't use port 80
[04:38] <ntoombs> and i never said apache was buggy or unsimple
[04:38] <jmarsden> Huh?  It does it you tell it to!
[04:38] <twb> ssh uses whatever port you tell it to
[04:38] <ntoombs> oh my misake sorry
[04:38] <jmarsden> ntoombs: That's like saying "apache doesn't use port 8080"... well, it doesn't do so by default...
[04:39] <ChmEarl> ntoombs, you are open on 8080
[04:39] <ntoombs> i've tried changing apache to port 8080 and it gives me a 404 error
[04:39] <ChmEarl> ntoombs, http://paste.ubuntu.com/641653/
[04:40] <ChmEarl> is that you?
[04:40] <ntoombs> yes
[04:40] <ntoombs> is port 80 open?
[04:41] <ChmEarl> no
[04:41] <ChmEarl> I tried it
[04:41] <ntoombs> do you know why it might not be open?
[04:41] <ChmEarl> ntoombs, grep -ir 8080 /etc/apache2/*
[04:42] <ChmEarl> whereever you see 8080, change it to 80
[04:42] <ntoombs> http://paste.ubuntu.com/641657/
[04:43] <ChmEarl> ntoombs, maybe not... nm
[04:43] <ChmEarl> ntoombs, those are not apache configs
[04:43] <jmarsden> ChmEarl: That sort of advice is really dangerous...
[04:44]  * ChmEarl feels the reins pulling on my neck
[04:46] <ChmEarl> ntoombs, iptables -L -v -t nat    <-- check for a redirect
[04:46] <ntoombs> http://paste.ubuntu.com/641658/
[04:47] <jmarsden> ChmEarl: On a freshly installed Ubuntu server... how would that have got there?!
[04:47] <jmarsden> I'll leave you do it...
[04:47] <jmarsden> s/do/to/
[04:48] <ntoombs> lol jmarsden
[04:48] <ChmEarl> ntoombs, who setup the router? there is a forward/redirect there
[04:48] <ntoombs> do you have better advice besides get a better isp or router?
[04:48] <ntoombs> the router changes the ip address to a static local ip based off the mac address
[04:49] <jmarsden> ntoombs: well, if you knew enough you could hook the server to the public IP, and use *it* as a router to the rest of your LAN... but I'm not walking you through doing that :)
[04:49] <ntoombs> i couldn't get my server to statically assign a static ip so i had my router do it
[04:50] <ChmEarl> ntoombs, 100% sure.. your router is open on 8080 and redirects it to a private IP:80
[04:50] <ntoombs> so how do i fix that?
[04:51] <jmarsden> ntoombs: You did remove the 8080 forwarding before you added a straight port 80 forwarding rule in the router, right?
[04:51] <ntoombs> does it matter in which order i forward ports?
[04:53] <ntoombs> jmarsden: i think i may be missunderstanding what you're asking
[04:54] <jmarsden> (a) Why  are you still doing things with port 8080, when you actually want port 80; (b) did you clear out all your port forwarding stuff in the router, and then add *only* port 80 forwarding, in all those hours with netgear support?
[04:55] <ntoombs> no because I didn't know it mattered if other ports were open
[04:55] <jmarsden> Try it.  You have little to lose.
[04:56] <ntoombs> ok
[04:56] <ntoombs> should i power cycle afterwords or is that unnessecary?
[04:59] <jmarsden> It all depends on the router.  power cycle it if you want.
[05:04] <ntoombs_> jmarsden: port 80 is still closed
[05:04] <ntoombs_> port 22 is still open
[05:05] <jmarsden> Then you left a port 22 forward in the router... I thought you were going to " clear out all your port forwarding stuff in the router, and then add *only* port 80 forwarding"  ??
[05:05] <ntoombs_> it shouldn't matter
[05:06] <jmarsden> No, but it suggests you are bad at following directions.  Port 80 forwarding "should" just work, too.
[05:07] <ntoombs_> yea it should work but to me it's silly to think the reason could be because it's not the only port forwarded on my router
[05:07] <ntoombs_> i got rid of ever open port on my router except for the ones i need open
[05:08] <ntoombs_> the fact that both are forwared the same way and only port 80 is closed could mean two things
[05:08] <ntoombs_> my isp is blocking port 80 which i've alredy confirmed to be false or something is wrong in the configuration of my ubnutu server
[05:09] <ntoombs_> or more specifically lamp
[05:09] <ntoombs_> and yes i know lamp should work right out of the box
[05:09] <ntoombs_> chmearl: what whas this you were 100% sure about earlier?
[05:10] <jmarsden> OK, you can go on blaming LAMP as long as you like... it won't help.
[05:10] <twb> jmarsden: just plonk him, you're not going to get anywhere :-/
[05:10] <ChmEarl> ntoombs_, http://localhost:80  should work as is
[05:11] <ntoombs_> jmarsden: i'm not trying to blame anything. I just don't see where the problem is
[05:11] <ChmEarl> telnet localhost 80
[05:12]  * jmarsden gives up and goes to bed...
[05:13] <ntoombs_> ChmEarl: Connection closed by foreign host.
[05:15] <ntoombs_> twb: what do you suggest I try? because i am seriously out of ideas
[05:17] <twb> ntoombs_: sorry, you've already taken up too much of my/our time.
[05:17] <ntoombs_> twb: have i annoyed you somehow?
[05:19] <ChmEarl> ntoombs_, grep 80 /etc/apache2/ports.conf    <--- thats what controls listening port
[05:19] <ntoombs_> chmearl: it's set to listen to port 80
[05:22] <ChmEarl> ntoombs_, tail /var/log/apache2/access.log   <--- see my IP hit your server
[05:23] <ntoombs_> yea i see it
[05:24] <ntoombs_> well i think i see it
[05:24] <ntoombs_> i'm not really sure what i'm supposed to look for
[05:25] <ChmEarl> ntoombs_, normally port 8080 on a router is used for outside config... not as a passthrough to the LAN
[05:25] <ntoombs_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/641665/
[05:25] <ChmEarl> ntoombs_, for someone to hit your router on 8080 means they want to config the router from internet
[05:26] <ntoombs_> i don't have anything going to port 8080 on my router anymore.
[05:26] <ntoombs_> but port 80 is still closed
[05:26] <ntoombs_> am i understanding correctly?
[05:42] <u1035> hi
[05:42] <u1035> how to check security of ubuntu server
[05:43] <u1035> is there any tool or script available
[05:51] <carldoncarl> getting a fd0 read error v.v
[05:54] <carldoncarl> memtest solve that up?
[05:55] <jmarsden> u1035: Many.   tiger, openvas, auditd, lynis, and several more.
[05:59] <twb> #ubuntu-hardened also
[06:00] <twb> jmarsden: debsums
[06:00] <twb> Also logcheck, and making sure you actually, you know, receive and READ mail from the system.
[07:31] <airtonix> is it common that ssh-agent won't start on ubuntu server?
[07:33] <airtonix> trying to add my ssh keys with ssh-add so it tells me 'Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.', so i try to start ssh-agent, which just spews out some stuff that looks like it should be in a .sh file
[07:33] <joschi> airtonix: yep, that's actually what the output of `ssh-agent` is supposed to be ;)
[07:34] <airtonix> ok, so it is normal that ssh-add still says 'Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.'
[07:34] <joschi> just run `ssh-agent` or $(ssh-agent)
[07:35] <airtonix> bash: SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/tmp/ssh-RwCCmL5827/agent.5827;: No such file or directory
[07:35] <joschi> airtonix: yes, because you probably didn't set SSH_AGENT_SOCK
[07:35] <joschi> airtonix: ehm, s/AGENT/AUTH/
[07:35] <airtonix> well
[07:35]  * airtonix rages
[07:36] <airtonix> anything else i need to know ?
[07:36] <airtonix> because on desktop, i just run ssh-agent and it works.
[07:36] <joschi> nope, should work out of the box
[07:39] <airtonix> bah this is broken
[07:39] <airtonix> i can't set that variable because it keeps changing
[07:41] <airtonix> ok so you have to
[07:42] <airtonix> ssh-agent $SHELL
[07:49] <soren> airtonix: That's the way ssh-agent always worked.
[07:49] <airtonix> i've never had to do that before
[07:50] <airtonix> on desktop just had to run ssh-agent in startup applications
[07:50] <soren> Then someone has done it for you.
[07:50] <airtonix> yeah well maybe the gnome desktop is just that awesome
[07:50] <soren> It's not GNOME. it's in the packaging.
[07:50] <soren> of ssh-agent.
[07:50] <airtonix> you would ruin my fantasy?
[07:50] <soren> EVery day.
[07:50] <airtonix> :<
[07:51] <airtonix> ok so with that out the way, i need to figure out how to make fabric use my ssh keys
[08:24] <twb> By default Xsession.d will start an ssh-agent on graphical login
[08:24] <twb> This is not the case for text logins, but you can ask for it in your .profile or similar.
[08:24] <twb> Filme at 11
[09:50] <tyreza> hello i  can't boot my pc this is what i got as error :
[09:52] <tyreza> http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8436/lllq.png
[09:52] <tyreza> what need to do ?
[10:21] <jMCg> :-/
[10:29] <soren> zul: You owe Launchpad a couple of bzr revisions (swift 1.4.2~blahblah-ubuntu3 is in the archive, but bzr only has up to -ubuntu2). plz to fix. kthxbai
[11:01] <smoser> RoAkSoAx, awake?
[12:49] <Ursinha> bom dia coleguinhas
[12:57] <acidflash> hello everyone
[12:57] <acidflash> i have a LVM which should be full to the max,
[12:57] <RoAkSoAx> smoser: I'm here
[12:57] <acidflash> i have moved from one computer to another
[12:57] <acidflash> when i do pvscan, it says the drives are empty, but im sure they are full
[12:58] <acidflash> is there anyway to create a symlink and mount the lvm ?
[13:06] <smb> acidflash, Not sure what you mean with symlink. But what exactly does pvscan say? And what release are we talking about?
[13:07] <acidflash> ubuntu 10.04 pvscan output >> pvscan
[13:07] <acidflash>   PV /dev/sdb1   VG Videos   lvm2 [931.51 GiB / 931.51 GiB free]
[13:07] <acidflash>   PV /dev/sdc1   VG Videos   lvm2 [931.51 GiB / 931.51 GiB free]
[13:07] <acidflash>   PV /dev/sdd1   VG Videos   lvm2 [931.51 GiB / 931.51 GiB free]
[13:07] <acidflash>   PV /dev/sdf1   VG Videos   lvm2 [931.51 GiB / 931.51 GiB free]
[13:07] <acidflash>   PV /dev/sde1   VG Videos   lvm2 [1.36 TiB / 1.36 TiB free]
[13:07] <acidflash>   Total: 5 [5.00 TiB] / in use: 5 [5.00 TiB] / in no VG: 0 [0   ]
[13:08] <acidflash> this lvm was full, now its showing up as empty... i mean when i want to mount the vg, shouldnt there be a place where its refered to? ie: /dev/Videos/Videos
[13:08] <acidflash> or whatever ??
[13:09] <smb> If the meta-data was read correctly and all, yes. The vg needs to be activated (though that should be done automatically)
[13:10] <acidflash> how do i activate it?
[13:10] <smb> So, vgdisplay would also tell you its empty?
[13:10] <acidflash> 1 min
[13:10] <smb> sudo vgchange -ay Videos
[13:10] <acidflash> outside of the lvm ?
[13:11] <acidflash>   0 logical volume(s) in volume group "Videos" now active
[13:11] <acidflash> thats what hte result is
[13:11] <acidflash> i must re-create the lv you think?
[13:11] <smb> You should not need to
[13:12] <smb> And it would likely destroy the contents (which you probably do not want either)
[13:12] <acidflash> no i dont want to do that
[13:12] <smb> So when you moved the disks. Was that from another computer running 10.04 to this one running 10.04?
[13:12] <acidflash> its the exact same computer
[13:13] <acidflash> i just moved it from one case to another (diff motherboard)
[13:13] <smb> Ah ok
[13:14] <smb> Could you pastebin the output of "sudo pvscan -vvv" for me?
[13:17] <acidflash> yes sure
[13:17] <zul> smoser: damn it
[13:19] <acidflash> its not fitting in buffer
[13:19] <acidflash> and >> is only giving me last bit
[13:22] <smb> Have you tried pastebinit (probably needs install): pvscan -vvv 2>&1|pastebinit
[13:22] <acidflash> grabbing it
[13:24] <acidflash> http://pastebin.com/bFkJNSWJ
[13:35] <smb> acidflash, Hm the only small thing I see is that for the partitions it changes to read with 1K blocksize. But I cannot say whether that is really an error. Just seems different to what I see on my own installation.
[13:35] <acidflash> aha
[13:35] <acidflash> i dont think it should effect it though,
[13:36] <acidflash> ill show you how it was mounted before from fstab, 1 min
[13:36] <acidflash> #/dev/Videos/Videos /videos     ext4    defaults,barrier=0,data=writeback        0       3
[13:36] <acidflash> of course without hash
[13:36] <acidflash> there was a symlink to the lv -> /dev/Videos/Videos
[13:37] <smb> Apart from that it really thinks there are no LVs defined...
[13:37] <acidflash> :(
[13:37] <acidflash> is there any way to teach it of the lv ?
[13:37] <smb> Did you do any reinstallation or just replace the board and reboot? Just to get my mental image...
[13:38] <acidflash> no i replaced the board, booted, was having problems with a pci->sata converter that had 2 hdd's on it
[13:38] <acidflash> so i took it out
[13:38] <acidflash> then it was saying it couldnt mount the lv
[13:38] <acidflash> so i just skipped
[13:38] <acidflash> went into lvm
[13:39] <acidflash> did a pvremove --removemissing -force to remove the unknown pv's
[13:39] <acidflash> sorry vgreduce
[13:39] <acidflash> not pvremove
[13:39] <acidflash> vgreduce --removemissing -force
[13:41] <smb> Hm... When I read the description of --removemissing and -force together I wonder whether this might have been the bad thing...
[13:42] <acidflash> it wouldnt remove the the unknown pv's otherwise
[13:42] <acidflash> iirc though, even before that it said that the drives were empty
[13:43] <acidflash> ouch
[13:43] <acidflash> and you cannot or do not want to remove them  manually,
[13:43] <acidflash>               you can run this option with --force to have vgreduce remove any partial LVs.
[13:43] <acidflash> the lv is gone
[13:43] <acidflash> but the data is still there i think
[13:44] <smb> It should be. What I am wondering is why it did complain about missing/wrong pvs. Those should get identified by the scan and metadata on them and not by any physical location
[13:46] <smb> There may (but treat it carefully) be a backup of the configuration in /etc/lvm/backup
[13:46] <acidflash> yeah you'd think so, but pvname was unknown
[13:46] <acidflash> aha!
[13:46] <acidflash> let me check
[13:47] <acidflash> ok there is..
[13:47] <acidflash> description = "Created *after* executing 'vgreduce --removemissing --force Videos'" <-- no good i think
[13:48] <smb> No :/ Does not sound too good... before would be better...
[13:48] <acidflash> hehe yeah
[13:49] <acidflash> 5 Tb's of videos :(
[13:49] <acidflash> there must be a way to manually recreate the lv, because the data is still there without doubt
[13:49] <acidflash> even if the lv says otherwise
[13:51] <smb> You may try to re-create the lv. The problem is that you would need to get the order of used PVs right. Nothing that feels like one wants to do it without have the current status of everything backed up before...
[13:52] <ppetraki> smb, acidflash, LVM keeps backup copies of the metadata in /etc after every operation. /etc/lvm/backup
[13:53] <ppetraki> smb, acidflash, if you find a decent one, pre vgreduce, you can do a "restore" with it, and get your LVs back
[13:53] <acidflash> ppetraki: we saw the meta data after the command was executed, im not sure its too beneficial
[13:53] <smb> ppetraki, There seems only to be one and that was done *after* the operation...
[13:54] <smb> acidflash, has that backup sections in it describing lv's (maybe it has even when saying it did it after the command)
[13:54] <ppetraki> acidflash, smb, normally if makes a copy after each volatile lv operation, like lvcreate...
[13:55] <acidflash> http://pastebin.com/exD9QWmv
[13:55] <acidflash> thats the backup, you will be better judges if it helps or not
[13:56] <smb> Yeah, think it did what it was saying. There is only pv information in there
[13:56] <ppetraki> acidflash, :(
[13:56] <acidflash> i came across a blog, but im not quite understand what the guy did..
[13:56] <acidflash> http://blog.adamsbros.org/2009/05/30/recover-lvm-volume-groups-and-logical-volumes-without-backups/
[13:57] <smb> acidflash, wait
[13:57] <acidflash> ok
[13:57] <smb> Maybe there is hope
[13:57] <smb> There could be /etc/lvm/archive
[13:57] <smb> with backups
[13:59] <acidflash> there is stuff in here
[13:59] <acidflash> FOUND ONE
[13:59] <ppetraki> I was wondering if it kept multiple superblocks
[13:59] <acidflash> !!!
[13:59] <acidflash> before the extend tooo
[13:59] <smb> acidflash, So what you want is the file with the highest index number that still has logical volumes int there
[13:59] <acidflash> http://pastebin.com/xQmP8m75
[14:00] <acidflash> that one was after adding the 2 pv's but before the extend
[14:00] <acidflash> should i go one before?
[14:01] <acidflash> ok now how do i use those backups, i found one before i extended the vg
[14:02] <acidflash> thank god for auto-backups :D
[14:02] <smb> Hm, probably you want the one that had the same (number) of PVs in it which are now present... But then you say you added two volumes and then extended the vg. Also extended the lv to be bigger?
[14:02] <acidflash> smb: I found a backup before the extending
[14:02] <acidflash> smb: the same hdd's are present now that were present before the extended but after the pvcreating
[14:02] <ppetraki> acidflash, smb, do we know for sure that the extend succeeded?
[14:03] <acidflash> ppetraki: yes it had worked, this was 3-4 days ago, before the board fried and the move today
[14:03] <acidflash> ppetraki: i had added 3.4 Tb of data to the LVM with the extend (2 x 2TB Hdd's)
[14:03] <acidflash> it worked alright
[14:03] <smb> acidflash, Hm, but that was then using the same LV right?
[14:04] <ppetraki> acidflash, so at this point, you can't make it much worse, get copies of all the sequences off that machine, and then you can start experiementing with restoring the boundaries
[14:04] <acidflash> smb: yes it was using the same LV
[14:05] <acidflash> ppetraki: its the same machine, just diff board, even same hdd sequence as before.. put them in same sata ports (numbering wise)
[14:05] <smb> So the filesystem was extended as well and using the two drives...
[14:05] <acidflash> Smb: yes I extended the filesystem after the vgextend
[14:06] <ppetraki> smb, that's how he'll know if he got the boundaries right, fsck won't explode due to missing inodes :)
[14:07] <smb> ppetraki, Well I think to get it recovered there need to be all the drives present. Because all of them were part of the fs
[14:07] <ppetraki> smb, yes
[14:07] <serge_afk> fwiw, my net link is horribly unreliable right now (after some storms went through)
[14:08] <acidflash> smb: all the hdd's that were on the fs or all of them that were on the lv ? because if only the ones that were on the lv, they are all present
[14:08] <smb> acidflash, So you need to get into a state where you have all 7 drives accessible, then you should restore the backup before the removal
[14:08] <acidflash> smb: couldnt i do a restore before the addition of the pv's to the vg?
[14:08] <acidflash> i have a back up of that state
[14:09] <ppetraki> acidflash, your filesystem would be upset with you, since you've already extended it
[14:09] <acidflash> ppetraki: I could probably reduce it i think??
[14:10] <ppetraki> acidflash, what's your goal here? you've got everything you need to put things back as they were. You were the victim of an LVM bug, not an FS bug
[14:10] <acidflash> ppetraki: i am unable to get the otehr 2 hdds to function properly because they were installed with a pci->sata converter that is buggy, its causing problems and not working half of the time
[14:11] <smb> acidflash, only if you have the LV ok and only if the data on it could fit into the remaining drivers. But since you extended the LV and with it the fs, all the files are spread over all PVs and you want to get back to that state
[14:11] <smb> acidflash, You may use any connection method you can (like external usb connections
[14:11] <acidflash> i think ill try that,
[14:12] <ppetraki> acidflash, there you go
[14:12] <acidflash> ok so is there an article or guide i can follow to do the recovery process?
[14:13] <ppetraki> acidflash, it's just vgrestore and a solid understand of the LVM components
[14:13] <smb> ... and a lot of sweat...
[14:13] <ppetraki> yeah
[14:13] <acidflash> hehehe
[14:14] <acidflash> ok let me grab some usb to sata converters and give this a try
[14:14] <ppetraki> maybe next time you'll consider backing your LVM with a fault tolerant volume, like a RAID 5/6 MD
[14:14]  * acidflash crosses fingers
[14:14] <acidflash> thanks for all the help guys, you were extremely helpful
[14:35] <Umren> ,
[15:18] <soren> zul: Did you see my comment earlier today?
[15:19] <zul> soren: yeah i thought it was smoser who said it
[15:19] <zul> soren: ill fix it up
[15:19] <soren> Cool, ta.
[15:27] <soren> zul: Like now?
[15:27] <zul> soren: yes lemme finish what im working on
[15:27] <soren> Cool.
[15:27] <soren> Let me know if it's going to be more than 20 minutes.
[15:28]  * soren is on a tight schedule today.
[15:29] <zul> soren: wait fix it in the bzr branch or in the archive?
[15:30] <Daviey> soren: Are you in London on Wed?
[15:32] <soren> zul: It's in the archive!
[15:32] <soren> Daviey: I'm not, no.
[15:32] <soren> zul: As per my comment earlier: "(swift 1.4.2~blahblah-ubuntu3 is in the archive, but bzr only has up to -ubuntu2)"
[15:35] <jamespage> does anyone know if squid 2.7 had IPv6 support?
[15:35] <jamespage> /had/has/ :-)
[15:37] <Daviey> jamespage: let me google that for you :)
[15:38] <Daviey> jamespage: you need 3.1 or later.
[15:38] <jamespage> I don't think it has - just want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious
[15:38] <jamespage> yeah - thats what I thought
[15:38] <Daviey> http://wiki.squid-cache.org/Features/IPv6
[15:39] <jamespage> hmm - so does that make our choice and squid-deb-proxy (which uses squid not squid3) in orchestra good?
[15:40] <soren> zul: ?!?
[15:41] <soren> zul: Er... that's not what I meant at all.
[15:41] <zul> soren: take it...im really busy here as well
[15:41] <soren> zul: Ok, I'll take it from here. Don' touch anything :)
[15:43] <Daviey> jamespage: perhaps not.. we should get lifeless's PoV on this.
[15:47] <jamespage> Daviey: I kinda assumed it did but just found out otherwise...
[15:48] <hggdh> smoser: got a question on a ec2 image update for Lucid -- available?
[15:50] <smoser> sure
[15:50] <smoser> hggdh,
[15:51] <hggdh> smoser: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/641989/ mostly between lines 143 and 212
[15:51] <smoser> hggdh, ignore
[15:52] <smoser> ie, ignore "/usr/sbin/grub-probe: error: cannot find a GRUB drive for /dev/sda1.  Check your device.map."
[15:52] <hggdh> smoser: I am deeply in debt, etc, etc :-) Thank you
[15:53] <smoser> its there because grub2 doesn't really like xen/ec2
[15:54] <smoser> but we have grub2 installed in the images a.) i think because it gets pulled in by ubuntu-server seed, and b.) because it is used in UEC boot
[15:54] <soren> Daviey: Have you guys started an agenda wiki page for the sprint?
[15:55] <Daviey> soren: not yet..
[15:55] <soren> Daviey: Ok.
[15:55] <hggdh> smoser: perfect -- I thought we were cool, but I wanted to be sure
[15:56] <smoser> soren, etherpad, please.
[15:56] <smoser> othe rthan i dont know how much backup we have on that, i prefer it to wiki
[15:56] <soren> smoser: You youngsters and your newfangled tools.
[15:57] <smoser> soren, i'd be just as happy if you started a text doc, and bzr pushed it
[15:58] <soren> Etherpad is fine.
[15:58] <soren> http://etherpad.ubuntu.com/OpenstackUbuntuSprint
[16:14] <soren> ttx, mtaylor: ^ btw
[16:17] <ttx> soren: on it
[16:19] <soren> ttx: Ta.
[17:25] <amero> what is the timer frequency of stock kernel in ubuntu server? can anyone that find that out for me? i dont have access to ubuntu server right now
[17:25] <amero> $ cat /boot/config-`uname -r` | grep HZ
[17:44] <hggdh> zul, adam_g: can I use two machines from the UEC test rig?
[17:44] <adam_g> hggdh: go for it
[17:45] <hggdh> adam_g: thank you. I am taking (for the day) sapodilla and soncoya
[17:46] <adam_g> k
[18:07] <roasted_> anybody here use likewise open by chance?
[18:35] <syadnom2> [{disclaimer, also posted in #ubuntu-cloud }] hi all. anyone able to chat with me about the differences between the ubuntu cloud an something like vmware or xenserver?
[18:37] <b0nghitter> i hope someday ubuntu can work with adobe so that flash media server is supported on ubuntu server.
[18:37] <b0nghitter> it installs fine, just needs some tweaking in the init scripts
[18:40] <b0nghitter> currently they only oficially support centos and rhel :[
[19:09] <RoAkSoAx> SpamapS: ping
[19:41] <aljosa> anybody knows why in 11.04 when i enter $PWD<tab> i get \$PWD in bash? how can i make it expand $PWD normally?
[19:44] <zul> back later
[19:49] <mintacious21> can someone tell me how to free up space on usb drive
[19:49] <mintacious21> for to be able to use 4.1 GB or more for installing iso
[19:49] <patdk-lap> delete files, empty trash
[19:50] <mintacious21> i did
[19:50] <patdk-lap> then what is the issue?
[19:50] <mintacious21> my usb information says thatthere is only 3.75 GB free and there is nothing onit!
[19:51] <patdk-lap> yep
[19:51] <mintacious21> do i compress iso or something/
[19:51] <patdk-lap> normally you can only access 90% of rated capacity
[19:51] <patdk-lap> doubt anything is going read a compressed iso
[19:51] <patdk-lap> if you have to fit a 4.1gig iso, you need a 8gig usb stick
[19:53] <mintacious21> darn is there any way i can get a copy protected iso from a linux company that will be able to copy it to usb
[19:53] <mintacious21> or something
[19:53] <patdk-lap> what exactly is a linux company?
[19:54] <patdk-lap> and I didn't know open source made copy protected iso's
[19:54] <mintacious21> linux distribution i meant
[19:54] <mintacious21> yeah you can buy them from their website
[19:55] <patdk-lap> heh?
[19:55] <patdk-lap> rhel, centos, ubuntu, debian, freebsd, none of them come with copy protection
[19:55] <Harzilein> hi
[19:55] <mintacious21> they are put on a disc but i want to figure out how to be aqble to copy linux based iso to usb
[19:56] <Harzilein> looks like the people who maintain our production server only _upgraded_ (w/o dist-upgrade) from hardy to lucid. i can't really change that right now, but i need to install an upstart 0.3 config for cron. as upstart 0.3 would not be able to determine the pid of forked/daemonized jobs i'm considering running cron -f. do you think this should work? (http://paste.debian.net/122594/) (without making upstart block or something, i fear i need to read th
[19:56] <mintacious21> it doesnt even show up as a file in unetbootin
[19:56] <mintacious21> or anything
[19:57] <patdk-lap> harzilein, upgrade/dist-upgrade won't upgrade form hardy to lucid at all
[19:57] <oCean> mintacious21: show us
[19:58] <mintacious21> how?
[19:58] <oCean> show us what you are talking about
[19:59] <mintacious21> i downloaded the iso from linuxmint .com and it wont even show up in unetbootin
[19:59]  * Pici wonders what this has to do with Ubuntu Server
[19:59] <mintacious21> do i have to extr4act it first?
[19:59] <ppetraki> Pici, nothing at all
[20:00] <mintacious21> just help me okay ubuntu is a type of linux so it wont hurt you guys
[20:00] <mintacious21> i dont have debian
[20:00] <mintacious21> ihave linux ubuntu
[20:02] <mintacious21> and plus nobody is on #linuxmint
[20:02] <mintacious21> they never are
[20:03] <mintacious21> they dont seem to listen like you guys do
[20:04] <Pici> mintacious21: This channel is for support for the server release of Ubuntu. If anything, #ubuntu would be the place to ask about running unetbootin. Just because you are banned from there doesn't mean that you can ask off-topic questions in our other channels.
[20:05] <mintacious21> what are you talking about?
[20:05] <mintacious21> im trying to get help
[20:05] <Pici> Are you running Ubuntu Server?
[20:05] <mintacious21> yes
[20:05] <mintacious21> i have ubuntu right now
[20:07] <mintacious21> it is my default se3rver
[20:08] <Pici> mintacious21: Sorry, then.
[20:08] <Pici> mintacious21: How big is your usb drive?
[20:08] <mintacious21> 4.GB
[20:09] <nealmcb_> Any AppArmor gurus here?  There is an interesting question at the IT Security StackExchange site about MAC.  I tried to provide some Ubuntu AppArmor input, but would love your insights.  http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/5134/453
[20:09] <nealmcb_> "What is preventing the widespread common use of MAC-type systems?"
[20:10] <mintacious21> 4.0 GB
[20:10] <Pici> mintacious21: Well if it claims it needs 4.1G, I don't think you can fit that on a 4.0G drive.
[20:11] <mintacious21> no it says i only have 3.75
[20:11] <mintacious21> GB
[20:11] <mintacious21> and the iso is 3.8 GB
[20:11] <ppetraki> mintacious21, well, sure, that's its formatted capacity, and is true everywhere, harddisks included
 harzilein, upgrade/dist-upgrade won't upgrade form hardy to lucid at all
[20:12] <Pici> mintacious21: Do you need any files on there? check out what your favortite partitioning tool says about the partitions on the usb, maybe you aren't seeing all you should see.
[20:12] <ppetraki> mintacious21, so either, don't use a filesystem or find a different way to boot from USB.
[20:13] <Harzilein> patdk-lap: i don't know what they did. maybe they tried to downgrade to hardy then. anyway, i'm stuck with upstart 0.3 and it'd help if i knew i can expect my cron config to work...
[20:13] <mintacious21> huh thats weird everything seems to be mounted correctly now
[20:15] <utlemming> mintacious21: please check with your device manufacter's definition of what a GB is. Many USB devices define a GB as<PHONE_NUMBER> bytes, while OS's like Linux define it as<PHONE_NUMBER> bytes. So the differential that you're seeing likely the result of a manufacturer that is giving you the short definition of a GB.
[20:17] <mintacious21> it says 1/4 of a trillion
[20:18] <mintacious21> 250,059,350,016
[20:18] <patdk-lap> utlemming, also, formatting it uses up space, the partition table, ...
[20:20] <ppetraki> we don't even support this usb tool he's using to copy the iso, it appears to require knowledge of the distro he's trying to burn: http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
[20:22] <mintacious21> so what does that mean?
[20:23] <mintacious21> hello?
[20:24] <ppetraki> mintacious21, it means, we don't know enough about the tool you're using to help you
[20:24] <mintacious21> you mean the usb drive
[20:24] <mintacious21> it is a kingston
[20:25] <mintacious21> 4GB usb drive
[20:25] <ppetraki> nope, back in your initial post, you stated unetbootin can't see the file, and if that's true, it doesn't matter how much space you have
[20:25] <mintacious21> what do you mean?
[20:25] <ppetraki> "<mintacious21> i downloaded the iso from linuxmint .com and it wont even show up in unetbootin"
[20:26] <ppetraki> you tell me
[20:26] <mintacious21> i told you
[20:26] <mintacious21> so
[20:27] <mintacious21> it must be formatted differently
[20:27] <mintacious21> or somrething
[20:27] <mintacious21> i think i know why
[20:28] <ppetraki> mintacious21, well, you can start helping yourself by reading the unetbootin docs and figure out what it's looking for
[20:28] <mintacious21> the unetbootin is out od date
[20:28] <mintacious21> it only supports up to linux mint 10.10
[20:28] <oCean> what download at linuxmint is of that size? Even the dvd is 864MB
[20:29] <mintacious21> isnt something
[20:29]  * patdk-lap also wonders what download could be *copy protected*
[20:29] <mintacious21> isnt that something
[20:31] <mintacious21> hey i have an idea how if i download linux mint 10.10 and upgrade it
[20:31] <mintacious21> to linux mint 11
[20:32] <mintacious21> would that work?
[20:32] <mintacious21> ?
[20:33] <oCean> now that's a question for a mint channel
[20:35] <mintacious21> ok thanks for your help i just figured out how
[20:35] <mintacious21> yes!!
[22:19] <RoAkSoAx> serge_afk: by any chance have you experienced that VM's on br0 cannot obtain IP from a DHCP server?
[22:22] <serge_afk> oops, i'm not afk!
[22:23] <serge_afk> RoAkSoAx: no, i haven't.  do you mean dhcp server which is not on host?
[22:23] <serge_afk> RoAkSoAx: if so, i suspect br0 needs stp on?
[22:23] <RoAkSoAx> serge_afk: correctbut was working until today
[22:24] <serge_afk> shouldn't have been?
[22:25] <serge_afk> RoAkSoAx: best way imo to look into it is to test it with a veth tunnel (without kvm)
[22:26] <serge_afk> RoAkSoAx: other possibilities include that /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward isn't set now, or that iptablnat iptalbes rules aren't set...
[22:28] <serge_afk> i see, 'serge' is taken
[22:28] <RoAkSoAx> serge_afk: it was working until today's upgrades.. so something might have been messed up
[22:28] <RoAkSoAx> but will look at it
[22:28] <RoAkSoAx> thanks
[22:29] <RoAkSoAx> cause is not even giving IUP address to the VM's when using virbr0
[22:29] <serge_afk> huh
[22:29] <serge_afk> how is br0 set up?
[22:29] <serge_afk> is eth0 on it?
[22:29] <RoAkSoAx> serge_afk: yes
[22:30] <RoAkSoAx> serge_afk: as I said, everything was working until I upgraded today
[22:32] <serge_afk> yes, everything was working, i'm just wondering what could've changed and therefore what yoru setup is :)
[22:32] <serge_afk> but ok, lemme know when you find out.  interesting.
[22:34] <RoAkSoAx> serge_afk: just tested with natty
[22:34] <RoAkSoAx> and everything is fine
[22:34] <RoAkSoAx> so it is not my router's fault
[22:34] <RoAkSoAx> serge_afk: might it be because of udev or related?
[22:35] <serge_afk> s'possible.  could also be kernel
[22:36] <RoAkSoAx> serge_afk: i think might be udev or related as I ended up not having mouse/keyboard for a while until got it fixed
[22:36] <serge_afk> RoAkSoAx: can you grab an older kernel, dpkg -i it, (maybe from your /var/cache/apt/archives), and test that?
[22:36] <serge_afk> hm
[22:36] <serge_afk> might check on #ubuntu-devel :)
[22:37] <RoAkSoAx> serge_afk: heh.. yeah will do that I guess
[22:37] <RoAkSoAx> anyways
[23:47] <ntoombs_> Hi. I'm having problems forwarding port 80 to my server for LAMP. I have talked to my isp to make sure they are not blocking it and they confermed they are not. I have sucessfully forwarded port 22 to my server in the same way I have forwarded port 80. Does anyone know of a reason why port 80 wouldn't allow incoming connections like this after talking these mentioned steps?
[23:49] <warzauwynn> ntoombs_: try iptables -L and see if something in there is blocking 80
[23:50] <ntoombs_> warzauwynn: everything is ACCEPT


[02:18] <aquarius> marcoceppi, nice that you figured it out! Looking forward to  it being available to play with :)
[08:35] <aquarius> marcoceppi, is the version in the charm store now (updated today) an OK good version?
[09:22]  * aquarius finds out by deploying it ;)
[10:32] <aquarius> marcoceppi, yay! it works!
[13:59] <marcoceppi> aquarius: yay! glad I could get that patched up for you.
[14:00] <marcoceppi> aquarius: I've commited to obseleting the github branch since it's a PITA to keep the two sync'd. Everything, for better or for worse, will go in the personal charm store branch. Be aware of potential breakage and feel free to ping me if you have any problems
[14:08] <aquarius> it's working
[14:08] <aquarius> if I want to customise the look of it, do I need to deploy a charm with that, or can I just poke the thing on the server?
[15:51] <aquarius> marcoceppi, ^ :)
[18:30] <marcoceppi> aquarius: you want to either use the admin section and "customize" or deploy as a plugin
[18:30] <marcoceppi> we use a plugin
[18:31] <marcoceppi> https://github.com/marcoceppi/discourse-ubuntu
[18:31] <marcoceppi> we also have this, https://github.com/marcoceppi/discourse-ubuntu-sso
[18:31] <marcoceppi> if you want ubuntu sso as a login option
[18:45] <lazypower> ooo
[18:46] <lazypower> that looks crispy
[18:47] <aquarius> marcoceppi, don't need sso signin. I like the idea of the admin customize thing :)
[18:47] <aquarius> thanks!
[19:07] <marcoceppi> aquarius: for repeatability (unless you're backing up the database) i'd recommend moving to a plugin, eventaully
[19:07] <marcoceppi> but the admin section is really nice for on-the-fly work
[19:08] <aquarius> marcoceppi, and to write a plugin I need to also write a charm for it and distribute it with juju?
[19:08] <marcoceppi> aquarius: not nessisarily, you could write a subordinate charm
[19:09]  * aquarius does not know what that is :)
[19:09] <marcoceppi> but i will have plugin support for discourse in the charm soon
[19:09] <lazypower> aquarius: https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/authors-subordinate-services.html
[19:09] <marcoceppi> so you would just `juju set discourse plugins="https://githubrepo/path/;https://somethingelse/path;"
[19:10] <aquarius> ooh, clever
[19:10] <lazypower> Documentation on Subordinate charms. I'm going over this myself right now so if you have any questions, i'm available to help you through the discovery process.
[19:10] <aquarius> but I can't do that yet, right? I need to wait until your charm supports that?
[19:10] <marcoceppi> aquarius: the latter is not implemented yet, the former you can do yourself if you want, the last alternative is to just juju ssh discourse/0; cd /home/discourse/discourse; bundle exec rake plugin:install repo=https://url`
[19:10] <marcoceppi> aquarius: right, I'll have that implemented this weekend most likely
[19:10] <aquarius> smart!
[19:11] <aquarius> I'll probably be looking at the discourse stuff again tomorrow
[19:11] <marcoceppi> aquarius: cool, I'll ping you if I see you online and it's been updated
[19:11] <aquarius> nice one!
[19:11] <aquarius> thank you for help on this :)
[19:11] <marcoceppi> I had to land some patches in to core before I could add the option
[19:11] <marcoceppi> since core has support now, I can update the charm
[19:28] <aquarius> marcoceppi, how do I add a new admin?
[19:28] <aquarius> juju set discourse admins=username1,username2 ?
[19:31] <marcoceppi> aquarius: yeah, or once you have one admin, just use the control panel
[19:32] <marcoceppi> admins= is basically god mode
[19:32] <aquarius> marcoceppi, oh, I don't need to use juju to add all admins once I've added myself?
[19:32] <marcoceppi> aquarius: correct, it's just for the first admin really
[19:32] <aquarius> smart! thank you


[17:30] <nigelb> mpt: I've concluded its more productive just looking at the bugs you've filed against LP ;)
[17:31] <mpt> nigelb, than? :-)
[17:31] <nigelb> Most often they are the bugs I want to see fixed as well
[17:31] <mpt> ah
[17:31] <nigelb> Than scrolling throught the bugs to find something that looks irritating to me ;)