[01:22] <PhreeStyle-home> hwello
[01:23] <nixternal> hiya PhreeStyle-home
[01:23] <PhreeStyle-home> id like to help with documentation, but dont know where to start
[01:28] <nixternal> which distro are you looking at helping?
[01:28] <nixternal> I am guessing Kubuntu because you are in kde-docs as well :)
[01:29] <PhreeStyle-home> well, i thought about it, but I run gnome
[01:29] <nixternal> Kubuntu docs are pretty much complete for Gutsy right now
[01:30] <nixternal> ahh, you will want to talk with mdke when he is around (he is in the UK), or Phil Bull who seems to be away right now...have you emailed the docs list expressing your interest?
[01:30] <PhreeStyle-home> well i did about a month ago, then a bunch of stuff fell in my lap I couldn't do anything until now
[01:30] <nixternal> ahh, that is always fun :)
[01:31] <nixternal> get in contact with Phil and check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Tasks
[01:31] <PhreeStyle-home> I removed myself from the mailing list because I knew I wasn't going to be able to do anything for a while
[01:31] <PhreeStyle-home> so should I rejoin and start over saying hello?
[01:32] <nixternal> probably would be best...express your interest in helping the gnome side as well
[01:34] <PhreeStyle-home> ok I just joined the mailing list again...thanks for the advice
[01:35] <nixternal> no problem..and welcome! hopefully they can get you rolling with some stuff...it could start to get slow seeing as we are only 2 weeks away from our freeze for Gutsy
[01:44] <LaserJock> mdke: gone already?
[01:46] <nixternal> probably close to it
[01:46] <nixternal> LaserJock: what is up with the packaging guide? are you going to be working on it? need a little help with it? iirc you had someone who was going to work on it
[01:46] <LaserJock> nixternal: ah, but you're here :-)
[01:47] <LaserJock> well
[01:47] <nixternal> not anymore...I just made like a LongPointyStick and poked my way out!
[01:47] <LaserJock> I've been trying to give it away
[01:47] <LaserJock> not sure if it's gonna stick
[01:47] <LaserJock> nixternal: I was actually gonna ask you about KDE4
[01:47] <nixternal> oh, whew :)
[01:48] <LaserJock> I wondered how easy it is to test KDE4 now on Feisty and Gutsy
[01:49] <nixternal> feisty: we have Beta 1 packages in Riddell's repo at kubuntu.org, Gutsy has Beta 1 in universe and I am currently working on Beta 2 packages (keep that on the downl low)
[01:49] <nixternal> of course, you can always check it out from the anon kde svn repo and build it yourself
[01:49] <LaserJock> but does it run?
[01:49] <nixternal> oh ya
[01:49] <LaserJock> I know I can get packages, but it seemed kinda involved to get things going
[01:50] <nixternal> I am starting to switch over to it so I can start working out more kinks
[01:50] <nixternal> I am doing 50/50 KDE 3 and KDE 4 now
[01:50] <LaserJock> scary :-)
[01:50] <LaserJock> I wonder what will happen when gnome goes to 3
[01:51] <nixternal> it can be...it doesn't crash majorly for me yet
[01:51] <nixternal> dunno, but I can't wait to see what gnome does
[01:52] <LaserJock> yeah
[01:52] <LaserJock> I think it'll be a key to the endless gnome vs. kde struggle
[01:52] <LaserJock> KDE's setting the bar
[01:53] <nixternal> there will always be that struggle though I think...I enjoy the whole kde vs. gnome thing, because it feels to me that each project strives to be the best
[01:54] <PhreeStyle-home> yea, competition is good for progress
[01:54] <nixternal> a lot of people are for 1 desktop environment, which I find flat out stupid because it kills competition and eventually leads to a Microsoft type feeling
[01:54] <LaserJock> I'm for 1 desktop ideally
[01:55] <LaserJock> but realistically it just doesn't seem to happen
[01:55] <LaserJock> I'm sick of duplicate projects
[01:55] <nixternal> it would be impossible...imagine the amount of loss due to something like that...die hard gnome people wouldn't switch if it was kde only, and kde people wouldn't switch if it was gnome only
[01:55] <LaserJock> and I hate how difficult it is to develop an app that anybody could use
[01:56] <LaserJock> yeah, I'd like to take the best of both worlds
[01:56] <LaserJock> but it would just end up being *my* view of it
[01:56] <LaserJock> I guess anyway
[01:56] <nixternal> it would be like saying, we only need 1 linux distro...can't afford to get rid of the competition within the free software community
[01:56] <LaserJock> I think we need 1 linux distro too ;-)
[01:57] <LaserJock> I just can't stand the wasted effort
[01:58] <LaserJock> we have a whole lot of crappy software
[01:58] <LaserJock> rather than focusing on getting good ones
[01:58] <nixternal> imagine one distro with 2 million developers..it would never work...it would be nothing but power struggles as well
[01:58] <LaserJock> 2 million developers?
[01:59] <nixternal> well, with all of the projects/distros out there, there are well over 2 million developers spread around the world
[01:59] <LaserJock> not distros
[01:59] <LaserJock> maybe all FLOSS
[02:01] <LaserJock> I'm all for competition
[02:01] <LaserJock> but I'd like to see competition between a few good choices
[02:01] <nixternal> well then how could you be for 1 distro and 1 desktop environment then?
[02:01] <LaserJock> competition with a dominate distro/DE works
[02:02] <nixternal> if you think about it, there is competition between the few good choices..there may be thousands of distros, but have 6 users doesn't count :)
[02:02] <LaserJock> but distro and DE are so fundamental that it really starts effecting things
[02:02] <nixternal> yup
[02:02] <LaserJock> I'd love to see all distros move to one package format
[02:03] <LaserJock> one DE
[02:03] <LaserJock> and there only be 2-3 main distros
[02:03] <nixternal> another thing with 1 distro or 1 de, is if I am working on that project, and I have a falling out or what not..then what am I to do?
[02:03] <LaserJock> that'd cover 90%+ of people
[02:03] <LaserJock> nixternal: deal with it
[02:03] <LaserJock> I hate seeing people fork or ditch just because of personal problems
[02:03] <LaserJock> it's stupid
[02:03] <nixternal> not always the easiest thing to do
[02:03] <LaserJock> didn't say it was
[02:03] <LaserJock> :-)
[02:04] <nixternal> I agree with you there..but that is like saying no matter how crappy your working environment, deal with it
[02:04] <LaserJock> no
[02:04] <LaserJock> obviously at this point we don't have really crappy DEs
[02:04] <nixternal> actually, we have quite a few great de's
[02:05] <LaserJock> but we are allowing them to continue make mistakes because they can say "don't like it, try something else"
[02:05] <LaserJock> same with distros
[02:05] <nixternal> and each one fits a specific need to a user...it provides them that choice we like to brag about :)
[02:05] <LaserJock> "If you don't like Ubuntu, go use something else"
[02:05] <LaserJock> we should be able to suit the vast majority of people
[02:05] <nixternal> that is what I tell people...they have that choice, but with one de or one distro, that choice is gone
[02:06] <LaserJock> my point is, why should they *have* to choose
[02:06] <nixternal> now it would be, if you don't like our distro, then go use windows or mac
[02:06] <LaserJock> there should be 1 clear choice
[02:06] <nixternal> because it is a freedom of course
[02:06] <LaserJock> bah
[02:06] <nixternal> would you like to walk into a store and have just 1 tv to choose from?
[02:06] <LaserJock> freedom is highly overrated
[02:07] <LaserJock> what is freedom of choice if you get to choose between several bad choices
[02:07] <LaserJock> I'd take 1 choice if it was good
[02:07] <nixternal> windows is good :)
[02:07] <LaserJock> yes, it can be
[02:08] <LaserJock> choice isn't always what you want
[02:08] <LaserJock> if I want to install software and I have to figure out and choose between package formats
[02:08] <LaserJock> that's no good
[02:08] <nixternal> for me it is, because I actually get to choose what I want, and not what some developers wants me to want
[02:08] <LaserJock> pfft
[02:09] <LaserJock> you get what the developer wants, always
[02:09] <nixternal> true, but I still have a choice between product a and product b, and in distros product 1 to 1,000,000 :)
[02:10] <LaserJock> I don't know, I just think choice is a crutch that a lot of devs have used to get away with crap
[02:10] <LaserJock> it's not bad, in and of itself
[02:10] <nixternal> I will admit that there have been way to many forks with distros of which most were unnecessary
[02:11] <nixternal> ie. Mepis, PCLinuxOS, VA Linux, Stampede, Mint, Edubuntu, Xubuntu :)
[02:11] <LaserJock> I would really like to see 1 major DE
[02:12] <LaserJock> I can't see how the Gnome vs KDE thing is helping users
[02:12] <nixternal> I wouldn't for a few reasons...1 I don't like Gnome as it stands right now at all...it isn't for me, i can't use it, and there really aren't any features in it that I would want in KDE, and this goes vice-versa with many many gnome users when it comes to KDE
[02:13] <LaserJock> right, I'm not saying that Gnome or KDE, in their current form, should be that one
[02:13] <nixternal> I take that back...I do like Tomboy :)
[02:13] <LaserJock> I just think that it would be smarter for us to combine forces
[02:13] <LaserJock> and make one DE that works right
[02:14] <LaserJock> same for email clients, while I'm at it
[02:14] <nixternal> as long as the client isn't Thundertird or Evilution :)
[02:14] <PhreeStyle-home> Thunderbird works pretty well for me
[02:14] <PhreeStyle-home> Evolution sucks for me though
[02:14] <nixternal> actually, as it stands, Kontact/KMail either...now when we get the bugs worked out with that, then it will change
[02:14] <nixternal> I don't like anything Mozilla
[02:14] <LaserJock> Thunderbird is the closet I've seen
[02:15] <LaserJock> closest
[02:15] <LaserJock> but I'm using gmail now
[02:15] <PhreeStyle-home> you don't like firefox?
[02:15] <nixternal> haha, you seen the closet :)
[02:15] <nixternal> PhreeStyle-home: nope
[02:15] <nixternal> I prefer IE 7 over FF
[02:15] <LaserJock> I don't want to use FF either
[02:15] <LaserJock> but it's the best I've got
[02:15] <PhreeStyle-home> what do you use? Konqueror?
[02:15] <nixternal> Epiphony is good
[02:15] <nixternal> Konqi yes
[02:15] <LaserJock> epiphany has some really troublesome "features"
[02:16] <LaserJock> otherwise it's ok
[02:16] <LaserJock> knoqi is just weird
[02:16] <nixternal> ya, but isn't that going to change with the adaptation of webkit? I think I read that somewhere
[02:16] <LaserJock> it works ok though
[02:16] <LaserJock> nixternal: what is?
[02:16] <nixternal> ya, konqi is weird from the beginning..but once you figure it out, it is great
[02:16] <nixternal> Ephiphony
[02:16] <LaserJock> oh, maybe
[02:16] <LaserJock> my issues are with the UI
[02:17] <LaserJock> I couldn't really care less about the rendering engine
[02:17] <nixternal> I like the minimalistic ui of it
[02:17] <LaserJock> I don't know, I'm just afraid I'm coming to think that all FLOSS sucks
[02:18] <nixternal> lol
[02:18] <LaserJock> it's just community based so it's more fun
[02:18] <nixternal> I have been using it for over 10 years now, so I am more used to it than any other I guess
[02:19] <LaserJock> I've been using Linux solid for 5 years now
[02:19] <LaserJock> and almost every week I swear I'm gonna go back to Windows
[02:19] <nixternal> see, you can never go back now
[02:19] <LaserJock> then I reboot Windows and go ewww
[02:19] <LaserJock> but OS X ... that's a touch one
[02:20] <LaserJock> I really like OS X
[02:20] <LaserJock> s/touch/tough/
[02:20] <nixternal> I have gone back to windows one time for 2 years..and that was only because I got into gaming for a bit and was sick of the idiots in debian and slackware at the time
[02:20] <LaserJock> I use it for taxes
[02:20] <nixternal> man, I have tried my hardest to get used to OS X and have never been successful
[02:20] <LaserJock> and sometimes for MS Office
[02:20] <LaserJock> I'm quite productive with OS X
[02:20] <LaserJock> it's like the best of all worlds
[02:21] <nixternal> MS Office I will admit is the greatest thing Microsoft has ever created, and there will never be an office suite that powerful
[02:21] <LaserJock> it's got the *nix thing going
[02:21] <LaserJock> but it's not half-bakes like Linux :-)
[02:21] <PhreeStyle-home> yea they need to make a DE like osx
[02:21] <LaserJock> s/bakes/baked/
[02:21] <LaserJock> well, it's not really the DE I like
[02:21] <nixternal> heh, first thing I did with my OS X install I had for a few months was install KDE on it
[02:21] <nixternal> I can't stand the OS X DE at all
[02:21] <LaserJock> it just work, never crashes
[02:22] <nixternal> I will definitely give you that
[02:22] <LaserJock> it looks professional
[02:22] <LaserJock> has lots of professional software
[02:22] <PhreeStyle-home> that's my problem with KDE...applications only open half the time
[02:22] <LaserJock> it's like Linux, but it works
[02:22] <nixternal> I have never had any major issues with Linux, until I started messing with Ubuntu development releases
[02:22] <LaserJock> I can just *use* OS X, I don't have to fight with it
[02:23] <LaserJock> bah, I've had lots of problems with Linux
[02:23] <nixternal> I remember running Debian Sid and Slackware development releases and never had any major issues
[02:23] <LaserJock> they went and screwed around with my Feisty in the last few days :(
[02:23] <LaserJock> now I can't logout
[02:23] <nixternal> kernel?
[02:23] <LaserJock> I have to Ctrl-Backspace and relogin, then logout/hibernate
[02:24] <PhreeStyle-home> I had a problem with something like that recently...anytime i would log out or shut down or restart, the machine would just freeze
[02:24] <LaserJock> everything works fine
[02:24] <LaserJock> it just stays on the logout screen
[02:24] <PhreeStyle-home> i filed a bug, but didn't hear anything about it
[02:24] <LaserJock> and I can't get it to go away
[02:24] <LaserJock> but that's my thing
[02:24] <LaserJock> why should I have to file a bug
[02:24] <PhreeStyle-home> see, i can't even do that...if I hit Ctrl+Backspace it freezes too
[02:24] <LaserJock> this is a stable release for goodness sakes
[02:25] <PhreeStyle-home> well im running Gusty, so I understand stuff happens
[02:25] <LaserJock> and at work our linux boxes are getting hacked into more often than Windows and OS X
[02:25] <PhreeStyle-home> a stable release with that problem is bad news
[02:25] <LaserJock> I'm starting to wonder if Linux is really any good outside the community and openness
[02:26] <PhreeStyle-home> well, at my work, i run Dapper with a jabber, apache server
[02:26] <PhreeStyle-home> I've never had a problem with it once I got it running
[02:26] <PhreeStyle-home> it's been running 6 months solid...I almost never have to touch it
[02:26] <nixternal> you know, every place I have ever worked, we never had a server hacked, whether it was windows, linux, hp-ux, solaris...
[02:27] <LaserJock> we have probably at least 1/year in my department
[02:27] <LaserJock> always linux
[02:27] <LaserJock> the uni IT guys think Linux is a joke for security
[02:27] <nixternal> sounds like the sys admin isn't doing his/her job
[02:27] <LaserJock> we don't have sys admins
[02:27] <PhreeStyle-home> the funny thing is the Dapper server is public facing and has less problems than the internal Windows servers
[02:29] <LaserJock> I'm constantly having to fix my Feisty laptop
[02:29] <PhreeStyle-home> yea, they say that the only reason a linux server gets hacked is because it wasn't locked down right
[02:29] <LaserJock> sure
[02:29] <LaserJock> the problem is that nobody seems to lock them down right
[02:30] <PhreeStyle-home> well, I admit they don't really give you a how-to on securing your box for every situation. I've found quite a few scripts that do wonders for security
[02:30] <LaserJock> anyway, I'm just burned-out and venting
[02:30] <LaserJock> I didn't mean to take over the channel
[02:30] <PhreeStyle-home> my new favorite program DenyHosts for SSH...it's great
[02:31] <PhreeStyle-home> I had no idea how many IP addresses were trying to brute force my ssh server until I installed that
[02:31] <LaserJock> well, my department has static IPs, no firewall, and in one of the labs all the root passwords are the same :-)
[02:31] <PhreeStyle-home> OMG
[02:31] <Flannel> PhreeStyle-home: I just changed my port, that solved it
[02:31] <nixternal> LaserJock: you sound exactly how I did in 2000...I mean dead on exact..that was the reason I took a break before
[02:32] <PhreeStyle-home> well, i did that once, but there are scanners that do multiple ports looking for SSH
[02:32] <LaserJock> nothing is more dangerous than Linux in the hands of somebody who doesn't know how to secure it
[02:32] <PhreeStyle-home> very true
[02:33] <PhreeStyle-home> though it's not too hard now...much easier than it used to be...now, all I have to do is install firestarter and denyhosts and I'm good to go
[02:34] <LaserJock> we just have students that discover the joys of ssh
[02:34] <LaserJock> then leave their computer open to the world
[02:34] <PhreeStyle-home> I've even had to use firestarter as the corporate firewall when our cisco firewall crapped the bed and it seemed to work better than the cisco box
[02:34] <LaserJock> so the can login from home
[02:34] <PhreeStyle-home> yea thats bad
[02:35] <LaserJock> and there isn't any computing education at all
[02:35] <LaserJock> so people just get hacked, and then learn
[02:35] <LaserJock> you hope that it doesn't spread too far
[02:35] <PhreeStyle-home> eww...you guys should really firewall ssh from the outside
[02:36] <LaserJock> well, the line from IT is "meh, it happens, format and reinstall"
[02:36] <PhreeStyle-home> firewall in general really
[02:37] <PhreeStyle-home> I guess that's the beauty of it...if it were a windows machine you'd spend a better part of the day putting it back online
[02:38] <LaserJock> I still wish we had a DE that worked right :-)
[02:38] <LaserJock> but they are pretty good, admittedly
[02:39] <LaserJock> if they just weren't so buggy
[02:39] <PhreeStyle-home> yea me too....for now, gnome is my choice...for my needs...but really I think they all have a long way to go before they are considered workplace-ready
[02:40] <LaserJock> I wish it were home-ready
[02:40] <LaserJock> it's great for my work
[02:40] <PhreeStyle-home> a home user can get over the quirks, but not a business user
[02:40] <LaserJock> heh, I'm the total opposite :-)
[02:40] <LaserJock> at work I can mess around with it and make sure things work
[02:41] <LaserJock> at home it's not just me using the computer, I gotta make sure it works
[02:41] <LaserJock> like I lost printing the other day
[02:41] <LaserJock> that did not make the wife happy
[02:41] <PhreeStyle-home> lol, that sucks
[02:41] <LaserJock> now I gotta wait for somebody to fix it
[02:42] <LaserJock> well, I gotta file a bug, wait a few months, then maybe somebody will mark it invalid because it's too old ;-)
[02:42] <PhreeStyle-home> admittedly, work and home things are buggy...very bugg7y
[02:42] <PhreeStyle-home> lol, i know
[02:42] <PhreeStyle-home> I don't think any of the 20 or so bugs I've submitted to any of the projects have actually gone anywhere
[02:43] <LaserJock> hmm, I wonder how many bugs I've reported
[02:44] <LaserJock> 55 it seems
[02:44] <PhreeStyle-home> lol, that's crazy
[02:44] <PhreeStyle-home> i can totally see that though
[02:44] <LaserJock> well, most of the bugs are packaging process bugs
[02:44] <LaserJock> requesting syncs and stuff
[02:45] <PhreeStyle-home> and even though there are alot of bugs i like to think that one day they will get better
[02:45] <LaserJock> way to be positive :-)
[02:45] <PhreeStyle-home> i try :)
[02:46] <LaserJock> good
[02:46] <LaserJock> stay positive, it keeps you healthy
[02:47] <PhreeStyle-home> very true
[02:48] <nixternal> ya, less hairloss or gray hair :)
[02:51] <PhreeStyle-home> and i dont need anymore of either one
[02:52] <LaserJock> yeah, I've lost so much hair since starting Ubuntu development :/
[02:53] <PhreeStyle-home> what do you develop?
[02:53] <LaserJock> I'm a Core Developer, I mostly work on Edubuntu now
[02:53] <nixternal> and I can attest to his hairloss ;p
[02:53] <nixternal> although, I am losing mine now
[02:53] <LaserJock> I'm also a doc team member
[02:53] <PhreeStyle-home> lol
[02:54] <LaserJock> amongst some other things that I need to get rid of
[02:54] <nixternal> he is the trinity, that is what he is
[02:54] <PhreeStyle-home> well, I've been looking to learn how to develop in linux...i only do c# on windows right now, but I want to get into in Ubuntu now too
[02:54] <nixternal> Ubuntu uses that c# garbage :)
[02:55] <LaserJock> nixternal: I'm only a  member of the trinity, not the whole thing ;-)
[02:55] <PhreeStyle-home> wow, didn't know that
[02:55] <LaserJock> we have lots of C# really
[02:55] <nixternal> PhreeStyle-home: Mono is imbread within Gnome, and it is in Strigi for KDE
[02:55] <LaserJock> fspot, tomboy, banshee
[02:55] <PhreeStyle-home> what is the core written in, C?
[02:55] <nixternal> for gnome yes
[02:55] <LaserJock> anything
[02:56] <LaserJock> C/C++ python perl
[02:56] <LaserJock> that covers most of it I think
[02:56] <LaserJock> ruby's getting pretty popular too
[02:56] <PhreeStyle-home> wow...I learned the basic python language, but gui programming for it is quite fuzzy
[02:56] <LaserJock> especially in KDE it seems to me
[02:57] <PhreeStyle-home> like i don't know which one to choose...and I hate the look of tk
[02:57] <LaserJock> for the most part nobody cares what you write in as long as it works and it gets done
[02:57] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: pygtk is the way to go
[02:57] <PhreeStyle-home> well i looked into wxPython, but its complicated
[02:57] <PhreeStyle-home> why pygtk?
[02:58] <PhreeStyle-home> haven't heard alot about it other than not many use it (supposedly)
[02:59] <LaserJock> pfft
[02:59] <LaserJock> most stuff GUI stuff written for Ubuntu is in pygtk
[03:00] <PhreeStyle-home> really?...see I asked what ubuntu python stuff was written in, but no one replied to the post
[03:00] <LaserJock> most people I know use pygtk or pyqt
[03:00] <PhreeStyle-home> I'll have to look into that then
[03:02] <PhreeStyle-home> what's your opinion on java?
[03:03] <LaserJock> hmm
[03:03] <LaserJock> I don't have a problem with the language really
[03:03] <LaserJock> it just sucks because we can't put most Java apps in Ubuntu
[03:03] <nixternal> it is slow, just like python...but it is good for cross platform type of stuff
[03:03] <nixternal> ya, the whole licensing thing sucks
[03:03] <PhreeStyle-home> until they finish open sourceing it right?
[03:03] <nixternal> correct
[03:04] <LaserJock> so I think it's kinda misleading to claim an app is open source if it's written in Java :-)
[03:04] <PhreeStyle-home> true
[03:04] <PhreeStyle-home> well, i guess it's open source, just not open source written in an open language
[03:04] <LaserJock> but yeah, I think when they finish open sourceing it there will be a big explosion of Java apps
[03:05] <PhreeStyle-home> the explosion is already starting
[03:05] <PhreeStyle-home> I see java apps for everything
[03:05] <LaserJock> I just never got into it because I always saw it as a useful thing
[03:05] <LaserJock> I wasn't doing web or application development
[03:05] <LaserJock> yes, I see java apps everywhere
[03:06] <LaserJock> but not installed by default
[03:06] <LaserJock> or easy to get at
[03:06] <LaserJock> necessarily
[03:06] <PhreeStyle-home> how long you think it will take before it's open sourced?
[03:06] <nixternal> supposedly by the end of this year is what I heard..but take that with a grain of salt
[03:06] <PhreeStyle-home> yea, that seems a bit soon
[03:07] <LaserJock> I suppose it's a lot of work
[03:07] <LaserJock> I'm not sure why exactly
[03:07] <PhreeStyle-home> i would think so...a language like that generic enough to run on so many platforms...gotta be alot of cide
[03:07] <PhreeStyle-home> code*
[03:07] <nixternal> ya, if you want to open source it with the GPL, just apply the language...but they said something about some of the infrastructure they want to not make open source or some garbage
[03:08] <LaserJock> yeah, but why would they have to rewrite it?
[03:08] <LaserJock> just release the code :-)
[03:08] <nixternal> amen!
[03:08] <PhreeStyle-home> well, i think they have to go through it all and make sure they are not giving out any trade secrets or something
[03:08] <LaserJock> I imagine the delay is them getting out all the stuff that's either patent infringement/illegal or they don't want to open source parts of it
[03:09] <LaserJock> oh well, it'll come
[03:09] <LaserJock> Edubuntu will jump on it for sure when it does
[03:10] <PhreeStyle-home> its by far one of the most taught languages now from what I've seen
[03:10] <PhreeStyle-home> between it and C#
[03:10] <LaserJock> I wouldn't know too much
[03:10] <PhreeStyle-home> it's almost impossible to get a C/C++ class
[03:10] <LaserJock> really?
[03:10] <PhreeStyle-home> I tried finding one and couldn't
[03:11] <LaserJock> I know in my field Java is popular because it's like the non-programmer language
[03:11] <PhreeStyle-home> at least one from a place with a reputation
[03:11] <LaserJock> although my boss will only write in Fortran and C
[03:11] <PhreeStyle-home> yea i wasn't around for fortran :)
[03:11] <LaserJock> around?
[03:12] <PhreeStyle-home> when it was popular...i missed that bus
[03:12] <LaserJock> lots of people write Fortran 77 all the time
[03:12] <LaserJock> depends on the field
[03:12] <LaserJock> in the sciences it's still very dominante
[03:13] <PhreeStyle-home> didn't know that...i figured it was dying since I haven't heard much from it
[03:13] <LaserJock> nah, we're just not "real" programmers ;-)
[03:13] <PhreeStyle-home> :)
[03:13] <LaserJock> NASA uses a lot of fortran, for instance
[03:13] <LaserJock> and the weather people
[03:13] <PhreeStyle-home> NASA uses alot of everything
[03:14] <LaserJock> any time you need serious number crunching
[03:14] <PhreeStyle-home> for every language, is see "NASA uses it"
[03:14] <LaserJock> Fortan still beats C
[03:14] <LaserJock> python is creeping in though
[03:15] <PhreeStyle-home> I think my boss did Fortran back in the day
[03:15] <PhreeStyle-home> python is kinda slow though from what I hear...along side java
[03:15] <LaserJock> well, the key is you do all the speed-sensitive stuff in fortran and glue it all together with python
[03:16] <LaserJock> there are really good python libraries for science written mostly in Fortran
[03:17] <nixternal> I am hopefully going to take some more fortran classes next semester
[03:17] <nixternal> fortran and c++ for scientist
[03:17] <LaserJock> there's not a ton to it
[03:17] <PhreeStyle-home> well, my thought for writting my first linux app was to make a front end for mounting cifs shares
[03:17] <LaserJock> just use lots of GOTO statements ;-)
[03:17] <nixternal> haha right
[03:17] <nixternal> I learned Fortran in high school many years ago
[03:18] <LaserJock> I'm learning C++ for a gnome app
[03:19] <LaserJock> but I'm really not a programmer
[03:19] <LaserJock> I'm really realizing that
[03:19] <nixternal> hehe, I feel you there
[03:19] <PhreeStyle-home> you're a core dev though, right? how are you not a programmer?
[03:19] <LaserJock> I can write some code, and it's textbook
[03:20] <LaserJock> then I get somebody like sbalneav and he hacks it apart
[03:20] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: why would I need to be?
[03:20] <LaserJock> :-)
[03:20] <LaserJock> I'm a chemist
[03:20] <LaserJock> I can barely make a shell script compared to a real programmer
[03:20] <PhreeStyle-home> oh...yea I know nothing about chemistry...slept through that day in science class
[03:21] <LaserJock> but being an Ubuntu developer has gotten me more into application development
[03:22] <PhreeStyle-home> well if you're a Ubuntu dev, what do you do exactly?
[03:22] <LaserJock> I package stuff, fix bugs, write documentation, whatever needs to be done
[03:23] <LaserJock> a lot of it has been community development too, training people
[03:23] <nixternal> heh, you do way more than that... ie. blueprints, gsoc mentor...those ring a bell?
[03:23] <LaserJock> well, I do what I can
[03:23] <nixternal> and then some
[03:23] <LaserJock> none of it's that special
[03:23] <nixternal> I do nothing but bother people, and somehow I made my membership
[03:24] <PhreeStyle-home> I wanna learn how to fix bugs eventually because I find them all the time and I feel like posting them doesn't do any good
[03:24] <nixternal> I will never understand that :)
[03:24] <LaserJock> pfft
[03:24] <LaserJock> you do a lot nixternal
[03:24] <LaserJock> I wouldn't say bother people really
[03:24] <LaserJock> sometimes quite enthusiastic
[03:24] <LaserJock> but not a bother ;-)
[03:24] <nixternal> I don't do as much as I would like
[03:25] <nixternal> however, it seems I have been tasked with the Edubuntu KDE stuff now
[03:25] <LaserJock> yep, mwuahaha
[03:25] <nixternal> was that you or ogra's idea?
[03:25] <LaserJock> Riddell's I think
[03:25] <nixternal> hrmm, he pointed the finger at you two...I see how it is :)
[03:25] <LaserJock> heh
[03:25] <LaserJock> maybe it was kinda fuzzy
[03:25] <LaserJock> ;-)
[03:26] <LaserJock> strength in numbers
[03:26] <nixternal> I told Anne Marie from KDE Edu about Edubuntu doing that, and once she is done with her holiday, don't be surprised if she shows up
[03:26] <LaserJock> good
[03:26] <LaserJock> she's great
[03:26] <nixternal> ya, she was whicked excited
[03:26] <LaserJock> she didn't even kill me about gallium
[03:26] <nixternal> heck ya she is..you want to talk about someone who does it all
[03:27] <nixternal> I met her through KOffice 2..and then she is like all KDE Edu, and she does coding and documentation
[03:27] <LaserJock> I think KDE Edu would be the one area of KDE that might make me jump sides ;-)
[03:27] <nixternal> man, I am literally at a roadblock right now with these beta 2 packages
[03:27] <PhreeStyle-home> how did you guys get started coding and fixing bugs...did you start by writing documentation, or what?
[03:27] <nixternal> heh, I tried to get my daughter to jump sides and she wasn't up for it just yet
[03:28] <nixternal> PhreeStyle-home: actually that is how I started in 1995...I wrote a couple of docs for the linux documentation project
[03:28] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: I started working on Ubuntu because a chemistry app I wanted to use had a bit of a bug
[03:28] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: I hopped online to see if I could get it fixed, and got sucked into the drug that is Ubuntu instead
[03:29] <nixternal> I was using slackware at the time because one of the IT people on the military base I was stationed at was a slackdev, so he got me into that project..then I did more coding than documentation, but in 98, I gave up coding fully for networking and hardware
[03:29] <nixternal> only the past year have I gotten interested in it again...and now I am trying to knock the rust off
[03:30] <nixternal> ya, I was sucked in to Ubuntu big time by Riddell, Hobbsee and imbrandon
[03:30] <PhreeStyle-home> so how do you get the source code, modify it, test and package it into a patch
[03:30] <LaserJock> I think we're about it for "techie"/dev guys in the doc team though, except sbalneav I guess
[03:30] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: well, that's a good question
[03:30] <nixternal> I think burger could dev if he wanted to...he obviously knows a lot about the dev side
[03:31] <LaserJock> he's a marketing guy
[03:31] <LaserJock> ;-)
[03:31] <LaserJock> they don't count
[03:31] <nixternal> so am I
[03:31] <nixternal> oh, now you are in trouble!
[03:31] <LaserJock> bah
[03:31] <nixternal> but I don't do the Ubuntu marketing stuff anymore..it reminds me to much of a cest pool
[03:32] <nixternal> I think Ubuntu may have been the reason that I didn't get the Red Hat job
[03:32] <LaserJock> heh
[03:33] <LaserJock> I've thought of moving to North Carolina
[03:33] <PhreeStyle-home> i gre up there
[03:33] <LaserJock> I wonder if I could get a job a RH
[03:33] <LaserJock> I just don't know that they'd take it well if I used Ubuntu at work
[03:33] <LaserJock> ;-)
[03:34] <nixternal> LaserJock: they won't let you use Ubuntu at work
[03:34] <LaserJock> but actually I don't think I'd like to work for a computer company
[03:34] <nixternal> you have to use their product...and you know me, I am not all about using what you want me too :)
[03:34] <LaserJock> I think maybe I'll just stick to Chemistry
[03:35] <LaserJock> yep, that's you, gotta be a rebel
[03:35] <nixternal> muhehe
[03:35] <PhreeStyle-home> hey LaserJock, you know a good link to the whole coding, testing and patching stuff?
[03:36] <nixternal> oh I bet he does :)
[03:36] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: well, since you asked, you may be interested in the Ubuntu Pakcaging Guide
[03:36] <nixternal> haha
[03:36] <nixternal> I knew it was coming
[03:36] <LaserJock> well, duh
[03:36] <LaserJock> ;-)
[03:36] <PhreeStyle-home> is there some joke about the packaging guide or something
[03:36] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: what are you running right now?
[03:36] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: I wrote it
[03:36] <nixternal> PhreeStyle-home: I also recommend the Debian Maintainer's Guide, the Debian Developers Handbook, and Debian Policy to go along with it
[03:36] <PhreeStyle-home> Ubuntu Gusty
[03:36] <nixternal> I have printed them all out into a neat little binder
[03:37] <PhreeStyle-home> you write it...then it must be good :)
[03:37] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: open up the Gnome help
[03:37] <PhreeStyle-home> l
[03:37] <PhreeStyle-home> k
[03:37] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: far from it, I'm sure you could improve it
[03:37] <LaserJock> hmm, let me think
[03:37] <PhreeStyle-home> what do I look for in the help
[03:38] <LaserJock> actually do dpkg -l | grep packaging-guide
[03:38] <LaserJock> in a terminal first
[03:38] <nixternal> damn, my granny is in the hospital again
[03:38] <LaserJock> I can't remember if it's installed by default or not, I think maybe not
[03:38] <LaserJock> nixternal: yeah? not good?
[03:38] <PhreeStyle-home> dpkg didnt return anything
[03:39] <nixternal> dunno...my mom's sister is great at exagerating things..so my mom and dad just left for Michigan
[03:39] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: ok, install it first then
[03:39] <nixternal> my granny is 80 something, wears oxygen, and drives a 2005 mustang gt...you knock her down, but she always gets right back up
[03:39] <nixternal> she is a crazy polish woman
[03:40] <PhreeStyle-home> lol, gnome help crashed
[03:40] <nixternal> haha, I think that is a known bug right now actually
[03:40] <nixternal> at least I have heard others say the same thing recently
[03:41] <PhreeStyle-home> well i installed it, and did a search for packaging guide and didn't return anythinfg
[03:45] <LaserJock> hmm
[03:46] <PhreeStyle-home> i found a version of it online
[03:46] <LaserJock> oh sorry, was afk for a sec
[03:47] <nixternal> how does mcd's sound for dinner? :)
[03:47] <LaserJock> ugg
[03:47] <PhreeStyle-home> unhealthy...i can hear your kidneys screaming from here
[03:47] <nixternal> I have no strength man
[03:47] <LaserJock> pizza!
[03:47] <PhreeStyle-home> hmmm....pizza
[03:47] <LaserJock> or at least Wendy's
[03:47] <nixternal> I have been switching back and forth from the vegetarian diet, and I just can't do it
[03:47] <nixternal> man, I love mcd's cheeseburgers and fries
[03:48] <LaserJock> I can't do vegetarian yet
[03:48] <PhreeStyle-home> me too but its just so bad for you
[03:48] <LaserJock> I'm too cheap
[03:48] <PhreeStyle-home> what's worse is they are building a new mcd's down the street from me
[03:48] <LaserJock> Taco Bell?
[03:48] <nixternal> LaserJock: I ended up growing most of mine...but food wise, money is no object really...I really wanted to try it, but meat yells at me everytime I am near
[03:49] <nixternal> I snuck in toxic hell yesterday for lunch w/o my gf finding out
[03:49] <LaserJock> lol
[03:49] <nixternal> man, she is going to hate me for this...
[03:49] <nixternal> my dad, the other night he is like, you feel like going out for a steak?
[03:50] <nixternal> I said no, and he called me names :(
[03:50] <nixternal> haha
[03:50] <LaserJock> last night I had a big burger and some ribs and part of another burger
[03:50] <LaserJock> and 2 loads of fries
[03:50] <nixternal> omg
[03:50] <LaserJock> I could stand to lose some weight
[03:50] <nixternal> so could I
[03:51] <PhreeStyle-home> diddo
[03:51] <LaserJock> I'm just too cheap
[03:51] <LaserJock> I've got no money for healthy food
[03:51] <nixternal> I did the whole insane amount of carbs and protien diet trying to get up to 235 lbs solid
[03:51] <nixternal> I am at 235, but I am not solid
[03:51] <LaserJock> I'm on the "OMG I hope I'm not diabetic" diet ;-)
[03:51] <nixternal> I still go to the gym and lift heavy every morning, but still...I wanted to cut a little fat, and the vegies were perfect
[03:52] <nixternal> hahaha, so is my whole family
[03:52] <nixternal> heck, my mom is diabetic, and you would never know
[03:52] <LaserJock> pretty much my whole family is
[03:52] <LaserJock> I'm roughly ~250 lbs and I'm about the lightest guy in my family
[03:52] <nixternal> i figure, if I am going to die, I might as well be happy with a 30oz rare steak sticking out the side of my face
[03:53] <nixternal> OK, better stop, because I know there are vegans and vegetarians that can be offended by that
[03:53] <nixternal> my gf included
[03:53] <LaserJock> s/steak/bacon cheeseburger/
[03:53] <LaserJock> I dislike steak
[03:54] <LaserJock> but hamburger I can't live without
[03:54] <nixternal> OK, being a vegetarian takes sushi off the menu as well..and man that is my favorite
[03:54] <LaserJock> ... yuck
[03:54] <nixternal> omg...my mouth is watering
[03:55] <nixternal> tomorrow, sushi and sapporo
[03:55] <nixternal> a lil hot saki for a treat :)
[03:55] <LaserJock> burger, potato, cheese and bread
[03:55] <LaserJock> that's what I live on
[03:55] <nixternal> I have been good man...I went 2 months eating fairly healthy
[03:55] <nixternal> I have gotten on a huge real fruit smoothing trip here lately as well
[03:56] <nixternal> I have spent like $100 just to make all natural smoothies this month
[03:56] <nixternal> that's insane
[03:56] <LaserJock> yeah, it is
[03:56] <LaserJock> I'm trying a water diet ;-)
[03:56] <nixternal> I can't drink water..so I have substitued it with green tea
[03:57] <LaserJock> get off the soda and drink more water
[03:57] <nixternal> I don't drink soda
[03:57] <nixternal> and i only drink beer on occassion
[03:57] <nixternal> drink tequila on occassion as well :)
[03:57] <LaserJock> my dad worked for the guy that owned the Pespi distributor in our state
[03:57] <LaserJock> I grew up on cases and cases of free Pepsi
[03:57] <nixternal> heh, same here..we it was free for me, mom and dad bought it by the boatload
[03:58] <LaserJock> but my teeth are rotting out of my head
[03:58] <nixternal> I was always a Dr. Pepper type of guy
[03:58] <LaserJock> wow, we are a positive bunch tonight :-)
[03:58] <nixternal> who needs teeth? you seen how nice false teeth are? heck, when you want to do bad things, rip em out and go for it :p
[03:59] <LaserJock> ...
[03:59] <nixternal> definitely a positive bunch tonight...thank god mdke is sleeping :)
[03:59] <LaserJock> yep
[03:59] <LaserJock> sometimes it's nice to be on US time zones
[03:59] <nixternal> I can already picture his first comment when he wakes up about scrollback :)
[04:01] <nixternal> OK, I need food :) bbiab
[04:01] <LaserJock> I already had my pizza
[04:02] <PhreeStyle-home> oh, i forgot to ask...i sent a hello into the mailing list. Do I have to wait for someone in particular to answer?
[04:02] <LaserJock> I don't think so
[04:02] <LaserJock> welcome to Ubuntu Doc Team :-)
[04:02] <PhreeStyle-home> lol, thanks
[04:03] <PhreeStyle-home> im just hoping my emails are getting through
[04:03] <LaserJock> PhreeStyle-home: what's the name?
[04:03] <PhreeStyle-home> Ross Peoples<EMAIL_ADDRESS>with the subject of Hello...again
[04:04] <LaserJock> yes, I think it did come through
[04:04] <PhreeStyle-home> oh, good
[07:41] <mpt> mdke, you're famous
[07:41] <mpt> in page 43 of Linux Format
[08:49] <tonyyarusso> Grrrrrrrrr
[08:49] <tonyyarusso> Mailman is yelling at me from sending from different accounts :S
[11:01] <mdke> mpt: what's it about?
[11:08] <mpt> mdke, a brief blurb on "Notable figures in the Ubuntu community" or something
[11:08] <mdke> mpt: :)
[01:01] <mpt> http://ask.metafilter.com/70526/
[01:02] <mpt> - someone looking for an open source software project that they can produce a tutorial for
[08:36] <oldmanstan> hey j1mc i got a question, links like <ulink type="help" url="ghelp:office">
[08:37] <oldmanstan> how do i get those to point to the xubuntu docs, not the ubuntu ones


[00:20]  * thumper off to visit the vet, bbl
[01:08] <davecheney> lucky(~/src/github.com/juju/juju/environmentserver/authentication) % vim authentication.go
[01:08] <davecheney> lucky(~/src/github.com/juju/juju/environmentserver/authentication) %
[01:08] <davecheney> why does this new package have ZERO tests ?!?
[01:08] <davecheney> why is there a whole package for one file
[01:08] <davecheney> and two types !?!
[01:09] <davecheney> no, not two type
[01:09] <davecheney> two functions
[01:09] <rick_h__> davecheney: because it's waiting for you to write the rest of it?
[01:09] <rick_h__> :)
[01:11] <davecheney> rick_h__: i didn't add that
[01:12] <davecheney> me is frustrated with the proliferation of tiny packages
[01:12] <davecheney> ffs people, this isn't java
[01:52] <davecheney> menn0: https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/284
[01:52] <davecheney> small PR for your lunchtime perusal
[01:59] <menn0> davecheney: will look right after this meeting (if it happens)
[02:06] <davecheney> oh shit
[02:06] <davecheney> i was going to take a screenshot of the hangout screen that showed 12:05
[02:06] <davecheney> but the it ticked over to 12:06
[02:06] <davecheney> and it didn't hav the ring to it
[02:07] <davecheney>         info.SetAPICredentials(configstore.APICredentials{
[02:07] <davecheney>                 User:     apiInfo.Tag.Id(),
[02:07] <davecheney>                 Password: apiInfo.Password,
[02:07] <davecheney>         })
[02:07] <davecheney> ohh,
[02:07] <davecheney> here is an intersting one
[02:07] <davecheney> we have a Tag, so "user-dave"
[02:07] <davecheney> but the api credentials being written down will be "dave"
[02:07] <davecheney> so that User field cannot be used to turn back into a tag
[02:07] <thumper> yeah, that is all fucked up
[02:07] <thumper> anyway...
[02:07] <thumper> I've touched that I think
[02:08] <davecheney> where do those credntials go ?
[02:08] <thumper> those are stored in the .jenv file
[02:08] <davecheney> if the thing at the other end is doing
[02:08] <davecheney> names.ParseUserTag
[02:08] <davecheney> that is ok
[02:08] <thumper> it isn't
[02:08] <davecheney> if it's doing
[02:08] <davecheney> names.ParseTag
[02:08] <davecheney> then it's wrong
[02:09] <davecheney> ok, comment added anyway, i'll come back to it after I've fixed the compile errors
[02:09] <thumper> I think it is doing neither
[02:11] <davecheney> thumper:
[02:11] <davecheney>         var environUUID string
[02:11] <davecheney>         if apiInfo.EnvironTag != nil {
[02:11] <davecheney>                 tag, err := names.ParseEnvironTag(apiInfo.Tag)
[02:11] <davecheney>                 if err != nil {
[02:11] <davecheney>                         return err
[02:11] <davecheney>                 }
[02:11] <davecheney>                 environUUID = tag.Id()
[02:11] <davecheney>         }
[02:12] <thumper> yep
[02:12] <davecheney> so, if the environtag _is_ set, then ignore it and use the id of the apiInfo.Tag ...
[02:12] <davecheney> o_O
[02:13] <thumper> ah wat?
[02:13] <thumper> I misread the code
[02:13] <thumper> that is all sorts of fucked up
[02:13] <thumper> pretty sure it should be using EnvironTag ...
[02:15] <davecheney> yup
[02:19] <davecheney> thumper: do you want me to land a quick branch to fix this before doing some more wholescale changes ?
[02:19] <thumper> yeah, I think that would be good
[02:20] <davecheney> ok, two secs
[02:20] <thumper> davecheney: if it makes you feel better, I'm down in the trenches of weird/shitty code too
[02:22] <davecheney> \o/
[02:24] <davecheney> thumper: menn0 https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/285
[02:25] <thumper> davecheney: there are no tests?
[02:25] <davecheney> don't appear to be
[02:25] <thumper> how silly of me... a test would have shown it wasn't working
[02:25] <davecheney> didn't run the whole test suite
[02:25] <davecheney> just go test ./juju/api
[02:25] <thumper> davecheney: is there a quick test that could be written around that?
[02:25] <davecheney> thumper: no idea
[02:26] <davecheney> haven't looked at the tests in that code
[02:26] <thumper> can you take a look?
[02:36] <davecheney> hmm
[02:36] <davecheney> so
[02:36] <davecheney> none of our test fixtures have an environment-uuid: field
[02:39] <davecheney> ok, this is bigger than a quick branch
[02:39] <davecheney> logging a bug
[02:42]  * thumper is fighting side-effects in code being tested elsewhere
[02:42] <davecheney> https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1339967
[02:42] <_mup_> Bug #1339967: juju: cacheAPIInfo users the wrong tag when storing the environ UUID <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1339967>
[02:42] <davecheney> its on the list
[02:42] <davecheney> i don't want to get distracted
[02:55] <thumper> davecheney: can play.golang.org do github imports?
[02:57] <waigani_> thumper: failed for me, maybe it does certain ones??
[02:57] <davecheney> thumper: no
[02:57] <thumper> failed for me too...
[02:57] <thumper> ok that is why
[02:58] <waigani_> func RunConfigureScript(script string, params ConfigureParams) error {
[02:58] <waigani_> 	logger.Debugf("Running script on %s: %s", params.Host, script)
[02:58] <waigani_> 	client := params.Client
[02:58] <waigani_> 	if client == nil {
[02:58] <waigani_> 		client = ssh.DefaultClient
[02:58] <waigani_> 	}
[02:58] <waigani_> 	cmd := ssh.Command(params.Host, []string{"sudo", "/bin/bash"}, nil)
[02:58] <waigani_> 	cmd.Stdin = strings.NewReader(script)
[02:58] <waigani_> 	cmd.Stderr = params.ProgressWriter
[02:58] <waigani_> 	return cmd.Run()
[02:58] <waigani_> }
[02:58] <waigani_> client is not being used at all ?!?!
[02:59] <davecheney> looks that way
[03:00] <waigani_> hmph - I'll leave a question for the reviewer
[03:00] <davecheney> does that code even compile ?
[03:00] <waigani_> cloudinit/sshinit/configure.go:52
[03:01] <waigani_> yep, I have not touched it
[03:01] <waigani_> davecheney: ^
[03:01] <davecheney> it's cos of the check
[03:01] <davecheney> the if on line 51
[03:02] <waigani_> yep
[03:02] <davecheney> http://play.golang.org/p/m4Z-kfxN3w
[03:02] <davecheney> oh well
[03:02] <thumper> why oh why are so many of our tests so shit?
[03:03] <davecheney> thumper: you know that 383,000 lines of code ?
[03:03] <davecheney> that's not a number i'm particularly proud of
[03:03]  * thumper smirks
[03:05] <waigani_> I'm assuming they meant client.Command(... not ssh.Command
[03:06] <davecheney> waigani_: yes
[03:06] <davecheney> log a bug
[03:07] <waigani_> davecheney: I actually need to fix it for my branch - need to manually provision with a given key
[03:08] <waigani_> davecheney: should I still associate a bug with it and address it in my PR?
[03:15] <davecheney> waigani_: if you're not going to fix it staight away
[03:15] <davecheney> log a bug
[03:15] <davecheney> so when you are on leave next week
[03:15] <davecheney> it doesn't get lost
[03:35] <menn0> woot. I think I've reviewed everything that needs reviewing.
[03:36] <menn0> I'll keep an eye on the PR queue but ping me if there's anything that needs urgent review.
[03:36] <thumper> omg...
[03:36] <thumper> I found a test that tests something that can never happen...
[03:36] <thumper> effectively it goes like this:
[03:36] <thumper> look for the api end points
[03:36] <thumper> make sure there are no addresses
[03:36] <thumper> if there are no addresses, connect to the api to find the addresses
[03:36] <thumper> return addresses
[03:37] <thumper> yay
[03:37]  * thumper waves his hand
[03:37] <thumper> magic
[03:37] <thumper> juju magic
[03:41]  * thumper sighs
[03:41] <menn0> thumper: the test does that and passes?
[03:42] <thumper> menn0: well it mocks out the actual connection
[03:42] <thumper> to return values
[03:43] <menn0> right. so it's an unnecessary test.
[03:45] <thumper> yup
[03:46] <thumper> here is a good error message: logger.Warningf("cannot failed to cache API addresses: %v", localerr)
[03:46] <thumper> double negative, so it worked, right?
[03:51] <menn0> 8-)
[03:56] <thumper> WT actual F?
[03:56]  * thumper sighs
[03:56]  * thumper holds in the rage and turns a little green
[03:57] <thumper> why, oh why would the environment uuid change on an api connection?
[03:57] <thumper> perhaps to save it?
[03:57] <thumper> when it wasn't before?
[03:57] <thumper> that is the only consideration I can think of
[03:59] <thumper> davecheney: if I have a function that is package private, but I also export the func in export_test.go using the BigName = smallName method
[03:59] <thumper> davecheney: but the function takes an arg that is an unexported interface
[03:59] <thumper> davecheney: is go going to complain?
[03:59] <thumper> or magically work?
[03:59] <thumper> as long as what I pass in matches?
[04:22] <thumper> hmm... unnecessary test is not entirely unnecessary
[04:22] <thumper> there are other assumptions built int
[04:22] <thumper> in
[04:42] <menn0> thumper: while working on the schema migrations doc I think I've found a bug in the current upgrade mechanics
[04:42] <thumper> oh?
[04:42] <menn0> thumper: line 817 cmd/jujud/machine.go
[04:43] <thumper> there
[04:43] <menn0> a variable holding an error is carefully created but is never used
[04:43] <menn0> and there's no tests that look for that error
[04:43] <menn0> so if upgrades fail we silently ignore the failure and everything keeps going as if the upgrade was successful
[04:44] <thumper> heh
[04:44] <thumper> oops
[04:44] <thumper> we should probably fix that
[04:45] <menn0> I think the last return in runUpgrades should be "return err" not "return nil"
[04:45] <thumper> surely there is a test...
[04:45] <thumper> this was wallyworld_, so there should be a test
[04:45] <menn0> I searched for "cannot perform upgrade" in the entire tree and it's only mentioned in that function
[04:47] <thumper> hmm
[04:47] <thumper> write a failing test :)
[04:47] <wallyworld_> thumper: menn0: it wasn't me
[04:47] <thumper> one where the step always fails
[04:47] <thumper> and check
[04:47] <wallyworld_> it was roger :-P
[04:47] <wallyworld_> look at annotate :-)
[04:47] <menn0> will do. I know this bit of the code quite well now.
[04:48] <thumper> also... should probably look at the upgrade error before the "failed to update agent version error"
[04:48] <wallyworld_> i suspect there hsould have been a baned return value
[04:48] <wallyworld_> named
[04:49] <menn0> wallyworld_: yep understood
[04:49] <wallyworld_> :-)
[04:49] <menn0> I think it might be clearer without a named return anyway
[04:51] <menn0> wallyworld_: what is currently the desired behaviour if a upgrade steps fail? it's 50/50 whether it's better to downgrade or pressing on with the new version depending on which upgrade steps have already run.
[04:51] <menn0> soon we will be able to rollback using the backup, but what do we expect right now?
[04:53] <wallyworld_> menn0: hmmm. we haven't really supported rollback till now. rollback is more than db, includes config also etc. we don't really handle upgrade errors very well.
[04:53] <wallyworld_> hard problem
[04:53] <menn0> wallyworld_: right and I'm trying to make that situation better.
[04:53] <menn0> wallyworld_: but given current limitations what do we do?
[04:53] <wallyworld_> error out and then the agent restarts
[04:53] <menn0> wallyworld_: or what /should/ we do is probably the better question
[04:54] <wallyworld_> try and recover
[04:54]  * thumper is pulling gently on the end of a piece of string, but is just getting a big knot every time
[04:54] <wallyworld_> and restart the old agent
[04:55] <menn0> wallyworld_: ok. that seems about the best we can do.
[04:55] <wallyworld_> yeah
[04:55] <menn0> the old agent may not work because of changes made by upgrade steps for the next version but we can't do much better
[04:55] <wallyworld_> we can try and rollback the file changes
[04:55] <wallyworld_> but that may not work either
[04:55] <menn0> soon we will be recovering from the backup which has both the database and configuration files
[04:56] <wallyworld_> the thought was, if it fails, it's time to call juju support
[04:56] <menn0> got it
[04:56] <wallyworld_> great, look forward to that
[04:58] <menn0> wallyworld_: it was definitely rog's change... I just had a look and I can see exactly what happened.
[04:58] <wallyworld_> \o/
[04:59]  * wallyworld_ makes mistakes too, but sometimes needs to defend his honour :-)
[04:59] <wallyworld_> especially since thumper implied there should have been a test :-)
[04:59] <thumper> wallyworld_: that is because you always supply tests for your work
[04:59] <menn0> although the lack of pre-existing tests for that error condition probably didn't help when rog refactored that code...
[04:59] <wallyworld_> yes :-)
[04:59] <menn0> :-p
[05:00] <wallyworld_> well, i didn't write the original either
[05:00] <menn0> just teasing
[05:00] <wallyworld_> the jujud upgrade stuff is separate from the upgrade steps stuff
[05:00] <wallyworld_> :-P
[05:00]  * menn0 rolls up his sleeves
[05:00]  * wallyworld_ takes the bait
[05:00] <menn0> ;-)
[05:00]  * wallyworld_ needs sleep, later
[05:40] <thumper> success... just one failing test to fix
[05:40]  * thumper is done for now
[05:40] <thumper> meetings later
[05:40] <thumper> night all
[05:57] <ChrisW1> menn0: someone refactored untested code? tsk tsk
[05:58] <menn0> ChrisW1: indeed :)
[06:04] <davecheney> thumper: re that test, http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111119363/3792894-7922452111-tumbl.gif
[06:05] <davecheney> it won't complain, but you won't be able to construct a value to pass to that function
[06:05] <davecheney> however, if you have someone elses' value, that will work
[06:06] <davecheney> menn0: re named return, hold that thought
[06:06] <davecheney> it will be a good example for waigani
[06:07] <davecheney> menn0: chrisw1, http://dave.cheney.net/2013/11/14/more-simple-test-coverage-in-go-1-2
[06:07] <davecheney> may be useful for figuring out which footguns are lacking their protective covers
[06:08] <menn0> davecheney: I'm not sure if this is the best sample for discussing named returns
[06:08] <davecheney> menn0: what was the bug you found before ?
[06:08] <menn0> the code is hairy
[06:09] <menn0> not really about named returns
[06:09] <davecheney> :/
[06:09] <menn0> thumper or wallyworld were theorising that perhaps someone intended there to be named returns but there wasn't
[06:09] <menn0> at any rate, no named returns are being used
[06:10] <menn0> the bug is about an error not being returned
[06:10] <davecheney> ok
[06:10] <menn0> a line that says "return nil" when it should say "return err" (well actually it's more complex than that but that's the core of it)
[06:10]  * davecheney moves on
[06:10] <davecheney> :~
[07:18] <menn0> frustrated email sent to juju-dev
[07:18] <menn0> I'm done for this week.
[07:18] <menn0> Back on Monday.
[08:09] <TheMue> morning
[08:23] <urulama> i've just filed bug 1340077 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1340077) ... didn't find similar one, but maybe it already exists
[08:23] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:23] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:24] <davecheney> 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077 1340077
[08:24] <davecheney> #1340077
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <davecheney> i wonder if mup is dumb enough to fall for that
[08:25] <davecheney> #1340077 #1340077 #1340077 #1340077 #1340077 #1340077 #1340077 #1340077 #1340077
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <_mup_> Bug #1340077: if "default" is named to undefined env, the parsing fails <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340077>
[08:25] <davecheney> and the answer is, yes
[08:25] <urulama> QED ;)
[08:25]  * davecheney waves to urulama
[08:25] <davecheney> welcome to canonical
[08:25] <urulama> thanks
[08:27] <urulama> oh, australia, good evening then
[08:28] <davecheney> o/
[08:28] <davecheney> i'm representing for the southen himsphere tonight
[08:32]  * TheMue waves as antipode
[09:03] <jam> urulama: welcome. So how does one intend to pronounce "urulama" ? My first instinct is to read it as "you're a llama", but the intent could be something different
[09:04] <urulama> jam: :D :D
[09:05] <urulama> jam: never thought about that ... it's an old nick, so old that i don't thing about it, but maybe it is time to change it
[09:06] <urulama> jam: "ooroo"+"llama" would sound as we read it
[09:06] <jam> urulama: strong l or a y or a j sound ?
[09:06] <urulama> strong L
[09:22] <TheMue> jam: urulama: maybe it’s the right time to have nicks in phonetics (thinking of international teams)
[09:22] <urulama> TheMue: or in asciiart :D
[09:24] <TheMue> urulama: ;)
[09:28] <TheMue> so, mine is ðə mjuː
[09:32] <urulama> it's probably a known bug that autocomplet for debug-hooks in terminal returns charm/1 as charm is on machine 1, but hooks are connected only when "juju debug-hooks charm/0" is executed?
[09:34] <urulama> on a amazon or manual env, not on local
[10:15] <dimitern> tasdomas`, I added some review comments to your ports PR
[10:38] <jam> urulama: I haven't heard of it, so feel free to report a bug about autocomplete, as the first unit of a service is always 0, it shouldn't depend what machine it is on.
[10:43] <TheMue> so, https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/281 is back in for review
[10:45] <jam> TheMue: dimitern vladk|offline standup?
[10:53] <urulama> one more bug 1340133
[10:53] <_mup_> Bug #1340133: debug-hooks don't work in manual env <juju-core:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1340133>
[11:02] <jam> urulama: whenever I read your name my first response is "nu-uh, *you're* a llama" :)
[11:02] <uru_> damn, taken
[11:03] <uru-urnotallama> jam: better? :D
[11:03] <TheMue> *rofl*
[11:04] <jam> uru-urnotallama: :)
[11:11] <jam> dimitern: so you're gone from tomorrow for 2 weeks/
[11:11] <jam> ah, that's next week
[11:11] <dimitern> jam, yep, next week
[11:31] <tasdomas`> dimitern, thanks
[12:31]  * dimitern needs to step out now, bbl
[12:44] <tasdomas> are pull requests for packages like github.com/juju/names managed by a landing bot or do I just merge them myself (having received an LGTM)
[12:44] <tasdomas> ?
[12:44] <perrito666> morning
[12:45] <TheMue> perrito666: morning
[12:45] <TheMue> perrito666: we’ll see on Sunday, ha? :D
[12:45] <perrito666> TheMue: I return home on sunday, I will most likely sleep trough the game
[12:46] <TheMue> perrito666: hey, you cannot do that, you’ll see  how our team beats yours :P
[12:48] <perrito666> I care as much for football as I do for ... I think there is nothing I care that little about :p
[12:50] <TheMue> perrito666: hehe, in that case
[13:37] <bodie_> morning all
[13:39] <mgz> bodie_: hey
[13:41] <davecheney> mbruzek: hey
[13:41] <mbruzek> davecheney, hello
[13:41] <davecheney> mbruzek: did you see my update on taht issue
[13:42] <davecheney> do you have the dmesg from that system
[13:42] <mbruzek> yes I uploaded dmesg
[13:42]  * davecheney checks email
[13:42] <davecheney> hmm, nup
[13:42] <davecheney> nothing
[13:43] <mbruzek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gccgo-4.9/+bug/1304754/comments/35
[13:44] <_mup_> Bug #1304754: gccgo has issues when page size is not 4kB <ppc64el> <trusty> <gcc:Fix Released> <gcc-4.9 (Ubuntu):Fix Released> <gccgo-4.9 (Ubuntu):Invalid> <gcc-4.9 (Ubuntu Trusty):Invalid> <gccgo-4.9 (Ubuntu Trusty):Fix Committed by doko> <gcc-4.9 (Ubuntu Utopic):Fix Released> <gccgo-4.9 (Ubuntu Utopic):Invalid> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1304754>
[13:44] <mbruzek> davecheney, ^
[13:45] <davecheney> mbruzek: it's empty
[13:45] <mbruzek> davecheney, Sorry take the comments/35 off
[13:46] <mbruzek> the bug was updated with my dmesg_output.txt  I thought I would be clever by showing you on which comment, but I left no messages on file upload.
[13:46] <davecheney> mbruzek: thanks
[13:46] <davecheney> ok, so it's not the usual issue
[13:46] <davecheney> dmesg shows no issue
[13:58] <TheMue> wife bought strawberry cake, daughter made a tea - a very good working environment
[15:20]  * perrito666 finds another race
[15:22] <wallyworld_> axw: if you want a break from mongo fun https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/288
[15:26] <katco> AWS question: does anyone know if there's any documentation on what version of signature each region supports?
[15:28] <natefinch> katco: not sure what you mean version of signature
[15:29] <katco> yeah, sorry: http://docs.aws.amazon.com/general/latest/gr/signing_aws_api_requests.html
[15:29] <katco> they support v2, 3, and 4
[15:29] <katco> and i'm trying to introduce support for 4; turns out it's important to know which region supports which
[15:42] <wallyworld_> sinzui: \o/
[15:43] <natefinch> katco: man, that is a terrible name for ... well anything.
[15:43] <natefinch> wallyworld_: btw, A/C people still not here :/  Supposed to be here between 10 and noon, so the clock is ticking
[15:43] <katco> natefinch: mm? what's a terrible name?
[15:44] <wallyworld_> natefinch: np. we'll try not to eat *all* the kunch
[15:44] <wallyworld_> lunch
[15:44] <natefinch> katco: "SIgnature"
[15:44] <katco> natefinch: ah
[15:44] <katco> natefinch: context increase IQ by 100% ;)
[15:45] <perrito666> natefinch: so much for "they usually come here first"
[15:46] <natefinch> perrito666: Usually they end up coming early.  I guess they found out I'm not actually supposed to be working from home today, so decided to come late
[15:46] <perrito666> natefinch: sounds possible
[15:46] <natefinch> There have been a couple times they have simply not shown up.  But I called at 11 to make sure they hadn't just left me off the list this time.
[15:48] <sinzui> wallyworld_, the 1.20.1 final test run and the 1.20.2 first test run were the two best runs CI has seen in 6 weeks. In both cases every test passed the first try. The entire run was less than 2 hour each
[15:48] <wallyworld_> wow, awesome
[15:59] <jcw4> is there a juju / charm acolyte who might be able to help breze441 in #juju ?
[15:59] <jcw4> I tried to prime the pump a bit since his question was vague, but I think there's enough detail now that someone who knows juju/charms better may be able to help with?
[16:05] <natefinch> katco, axw: btw, I pinged niemeyer about moving goamz to github, since some Go people had been asking about which version they should use - launchpad's or the dozens of copies on github.
[16:14] <alexisb> sinzui, good stuff on 1.20.1, thanks for getting it out there!
[16:15] <sinzui> thank you alexisb
[16:32] <perrito666> natefinch: got ac?
[16:35] <axw> natefinch: thanks, I think that'd be a good idea.
[16:37] <katco> natefinch: +1, ty
[16:50] <natefinch> perrito666: they're here, but it's not fixed yet
[16:50] <perrito666> natefinch: well its something
[16:54] <natefinch> perrito666: yeah, but I fear the person they sent is not their most competent at diagnosing problems.  They have like 3 really good technicians and a bunch of flunkies that are not that great
[17:04]  * perrito666 wonders if we cannot fix that, there are like 8 of us here
[17:12] <voidspace> rogpeppe: ping
[17:12] <voidspace> rogpeppe: are you around?
[17:12] <rogpeppe> voidspace: hiya
[17:13] <rogpeppe> voidspace: that i am
[17:13] <voidspace> rogpeppe: hey Roger, hi
[17:13] <voidspace> I'm in Lexington
[17:13] <rogpeppe> voidspace: cool
[17:13] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I have a question about HA
[17:13] <rogpeppe> voidspace: fire away
[17:14] <voidspace> rogpeppe: should all writes go to mongo master - and does that mean that only the machine hosting the mongo primary should do writes, or do the other state servers connect remotely to the primary?
[17:14] <voidspace> or does it mean something else
[17:14] <voidspace> what I'm seeing, which surprised me, is that after "ensure-availability" the machine with JobManageEnviron is not the Primary mongo
[17:14] <rogpeppe> voidspace: if you connect to a mongo secondary, it will automatically make a connection to the primary and send writes there
[17:14] <voidspace> cool
[17:14] <voidspace> so we don't need to worry about that
[17:15] <rogpeppe> voidspace: after ensure-availability, there should be 3 machines with JobManageEnviron
[17:15] <voidspace> they should all have JobManageEnviron, ok
[17:15] <rogpeppe> voidspace: and the choice of primary is entirely up to mongo
[17:15] <voidspace> hmmm... my machine 1 only listed JobHostUnits in its agents.conf
[17:16] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I'm looking at the behaviour of HA when mongo dies but juju itself remains running
[17:16] <rogpeppe> voidspace: when a majority of replicas die?
[17:16] <voidspace> no, just when a single one dies
[17:16] <rogpeppe> voidspace: it *should* just carry on working
[17:17] <rogpeppe> voidspace: although there will be some churn
[17:17] <voidspace> right, but the now "effectively dead" machine is still listed as a valid apiserver
[17:17] <voidspace> when in fact it is screwed
[17:17] <rogpeppe> voidspace: api servers will restart, clients will also need to reconnect
[17:17] <voidspace> but things do still work
[17:17] <voidspace> I'm trying to determine what doesn't work and what we need to fix
[17:18] <voidspace> so yes, api servers will need to restart - but it doesn't look like they do
[17:18] <voidspace> but it's only a minor issue I think
[17:19] <voidspace> the replicaset configuration still lists the dead machine as in the replicaset
[17:20] <voidspace> (the mongo rs.conf() that is)
[17:23] <rogpeppe> voidspace: the dead machine will still remain in the replicaset until you run ensure-availability again
[17:23] <voidspace> right
[17:24] <voidspace> rogpeppe: when you run ensure-availability the first time, and mongo picks a master, will the singular workers stop running on machine-0 and start running on the master (assuming machine-0 is no longer the master)?
[17:24] <rogpeppe> voidspace: yes, they should do
[17:24] <voidspace> rogpeppe: ok, great
[17:26] <natefinch> well fuck, A/C guys say the $800 worth of refrigerant they put in the system is gone and we need a new system.  Fantastic.
[17:26] <voidspace> natefinch: ouch :-/
[17:26] <voidspace> :-(
[17:27] <natefinch> that was like 2 months ago they put that in, too.  Put in some "leak stop" stuff too.  Getting a second opinion in the morning, but... I think it's new A/C time... which means like $8,000
[17:27] <natefinch> anyway, coming into the office
[17:27] <perrito666> natefinch: f*** shouldn't they give you some refund on that? I mean they added refrigerant when they shouldn't
[17:27] <wallyworld_> natefinch: and wwitzel3 ate all the lunch
[17:27] <natefinch> that's ok
[17:27] <natefinch> I had cake for lunch
[17:29] <perrito666> uh, can we have cake?
[17:30] <voidspace> rogpeppe: my machine-1 agents.conf only lists JobHostUnits under jobs, whereas as machine-0 (my current master) lists JobManageEnviron too
[17:30] <voidspace> *agent.conf (singular)
[17:30] <rogpeppe> voidspace: and machine 1 was created by ensure-availability?
[17:30] <voidspace> yep
[17:31] <voidspace> it also lists three api addresses when there are now only two state servers
[17:32] <voidspace> and machine-2 agent.conf - which *was* master  - also only lists JobHostUnits
[17:32] <rogpeppe> voidspace: i don't believe that machine was created without JobManageEnviron
[17:33] <rogpeppe> voidspace: what's the output of juju status?
[17:34] <voidspace> rogpeppe: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7776326/
[17:35] <rogpeppe> voidspace: i see that all of machines 0, 1 and 2 are voting
[17:35] <rogpeppe> voidspace: that means that they're part of the intended replica set
[17:35] <voidspace> rogpeppe: but agent state of 2 is down
[17:35] <voidspace> I took down mongo first
[17:35] <voidspace> agent.conf on the other machines didn't change
[17:35] <voidspace> I took down jujud as well
[17:35] <rogpeppe> voidspace: sure, you can be down and still have a vote
[17:35] <voidspace> still no change (that I could see)
[17:36] <voidspace> but it is also still listed as a valid api server
[17:36] <voidspace> even though it is down
[17:36] <voidspace> but the master change worked fine
[17:37] <rogpeppe> voidspace: all those machines definitely have JobManageEnviron, BTW
[17:37] <voidspace> not listed in agent.conf they don't :-)
[17:37] <voidspace> but I believe you
[17:38] <voidspace> so it's a bit odd
[17:39] <rogpeppe> voidspace: for my proof, see cmd/juju/status.go:323
[17:39] <rogpeppe> voidspace: it's odd that that's not in agent.conf though
[17:39] <rogpeppe> voidspace: that sounds like some kind of bug
[17:40] <voidspace> rogpeppe: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7776354/
[17:40] <voidspace> rogpeppe: machine 1 is the same
[17:40] <voidspace> machine-0 also lists JobManageEnviron
[17:41] <voidspace> rogpeppe: ok, so it's an oddity (probably a bug) but not significant
[17:41] <voidspace> rogpeppe: thanks
[17:41] <rogpeppe> voidspace: well, it may well be significant
[17:41] <voidspace> hah, ah
[17:41] <voidspace> ok
[17:47] <voidspace> if you take down the mongo on the master then the master does switch, but jujud carries on running on the "old master"
[17:50] <rogpeppe> voidspace: jujud will always continue running
[17:50] <rogpeppe> voidspace: it runs on every machine
[17:51] <voidspace> rogpeppe: what would you expect a juju that can't connect to mongo to do?
[17:51] <rogpeppe> voidspace: BTW, AFAICS the Jobs in the agent config isn't used at all
[17:51] <voidspace> rogpeppe: right
[17:51] <voidspace> good
[17:51] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I'm still wondering what writes it out and why it's wrong, but I can look for that
[17:51] <rogpeppe> voidspace: i'd expect a juju that can't connect to mongo to sit around trying to connect to mongo
[17:52] <voidspace> rogpeppe: hah, ok :-)
[17:55] <voidspace> rogpeppe: I think juju behaves fine when we kill mongo
[17:55] <rogpeppe> voidspace: good!
[17:55] <voidspace> it doesn't rewrite agent.conf in the way perrito666 and I thought it should
[17:55] <voidspace> but I don't think that's a problem
[17:55] <rogpeppe> voidspace: nice to know that something works :-)
[17:56] <voidspace> the machine log shows it stopping all the things it should I believe
[17:56] <voidspace> hah
[17:56] <voidspace> indeed :-)
[17:56] <voidspace> so I'm going to close that bug....
[17:58] <rogpeppe> voidspace: ha, i've found the cause of the bad Jobs
[17:58] <rogpeppe> voidspace: i think
[17:58] <rogpeppe> voidspace: in environs.NewMachineConfig
[17:58] <perrito666> rogpeppe: I am pretty sure that I can fit an apple joke in there
[17:58] <rogpeppe> voidspace: the Jobs are always set to JobHostUnits
[17:58] <rogpeppe> perrito666: arf arf
[17:59]  * rogpeppe actually doesn't laugh, because a reference to a joke is not the same as the joke itself
[17:59] <rogpeppe> :-)
[17:59] <voidspace> hah
[18:00] <perrito666> rogpeppe: fine *(rogpeppe: I am pretty sure that I can fit an apple joke in there)
[18:00]  * rogpeppe is still waiting for a joke
[18:00] <voidspace> rogpeppe: so the machine actually has the ManageEnviron job, but we assume that a new machine only has host units (which was the case before HA) and so that's what we put in MachineConfig
[18:00] <rogpeppe> voidspace: yup
[18:00] <voidspace> rogpeppe: you just have to dereference it yourself
[18:01] <voidspace> rogpeppe: could this be a potential problem? (not the apple joke)
[18:01] <voidspace> rogpeppe: let me hedge my bets a bit more
[18:01] <rogpeppe> voidspace: currently no
[18:01] <voidspace> would it be fair to say that it's reasonable to assume that perhaps this could be a potential problem, at least in theory
[18:01] <rogpeppe> voidspace: the plan was always to allow a machine to change its jobs
[18:01] <voidspace> ok
[18:02] <rogpeppe> voidspace: so a machine would populate its own machine config's Jobs field
[18:02] <perrito666> rogpeppe: a skelton enters a bar and he says: bartender, please give me a whisky and a mop
[18:02] <voidspace> I'd tell you a udp joke, but you wouldn't get it
[18:03]  * rogpeppe laughs at both of those
[18:03] <rogpeppe> although i'd heard the udp one before
[18:03] <voidspace> I know another udp joke, but I can't tell that one either - it's a bit out of order
[18:03] <voidspace> yeah, old
[18:03] <rogpeppe> voidspace: pm me :-)
[18:03] <voidspace> rogpeppe: no, that was the joke...
[18:04] <rogpeppe> oh sod
[18:04] <rogpeppe> :-)
[18:04]  * rogpeppe lols a little more
[18:57] <bodie_> I'm really excited that Elon Musk donated $1 million to the new Tesla museum in NY
[18:58] <bodie_> I sure hope they take things far
[19:08] <urulama> can juju-test be run with a parameter to .test file?
[20:11] <mgz> voidspace: https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+bug/1307434
[20:11] <_mup_> Bug #1307434: talking to mongo can fail with "TCP i/o timeout" <cloud-installer> <landscape> <performance> <reliability> <juju-core:Triaged> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/1307434>
[20:17] <stokachu> anyoen know if the ServiceDeploy api call takes 'lxc:1' as its ToMachineSpec? I can't seem to get it to work
[20:17] <stokachu> or do i have to add machine first
[20:26] <natefinch> stokachu: juju help deploy will give you the format.   What are you trying to get it to do?
[20:27] <stokachu> deploy to an lxc container on machine 1
[20:28] <natefinch> stokachu: before machine 1 exists, I take it?
[20:28] <stokachu> natefinch, no machine 1 exists
[20:30] <natefinch> stokachu: oh, hmm. lxc:1 should work....
[20:31] <stokachu> is the param syntax still {'ToMachineSpec': 'lxc:1'}
[20:33] <natefinch> stokachu: yeah - https://godoc.org/github.com/juju/juju/juju#DeployServiceParams
[20:33] <stokachu> hmm ok i must be doing something wrong with the api call
[20:36] <rogpeppe> g'night all
[20:46] <stokachu> natefinch, if you don't define a NumUnits it just deploys the charm but never attaches itself to a machine
[20:46] <stokachu> shouldnt that give us an error or some indication in the json response?
[20:48] <natefinch> yeah, it's a little wacky since numunits would default to 0, which is not really a valid value in any sense of the words
[20:49] <natefinch> it should probably complain, yeah
[20:49] <natefinch> or default to 1 for numunits < 1
[20:49] <stokachu> yea
[20:50] <stokachu> took me awhile to figure out why the ServiceDeploy api call wasn't associating a machine
[20:55] <thumper> wallyworld_: sorry about missing the resources meeting, but 7am meetings after my late night lead ones isn't a good time
[20:55] <thumper> was too out to it
[20:56] <wallyworld_> thumper: np, we didn't need you anyway :-P
[20:56] <thumper> good
[20:56] <wallyworld_> thumper: i can ping you a bit later and fill you in
[20:57] <thumper> sure
[21:00] <natefinch> stokachu: the CLI stops you from using num units < 1.. the api should, too
[21:00] <stokachu> if i dont define num units it'll just deploy the service with no machine
[21:02] <natefinch> stokachu: yeah, that's a bug.  We haven't really put a lot of effort into making the API foolproof, unfortunately.
[21:02] <stokachu> ill file a bug for it to track then
[21:03] <perrito666> natefinch: that should blow at a lower level
[21:03] <natefinch> stokachu: thanks
[21:04] <perrito666> natefinch: sounds like something that we will never want to allow so making that check should not happen in the borders
[21:04] <perrito666> s/borders/edges
[21:05] <natefinch> perrito666: yep
[21:05] <natefinch> perrito666: no sense having that kind of logic in more than one place
[21:06] <thumper> wallyworld_: dog got in a bit of a fight last night, off to the vet in just under an hour, she won't put weight on one of her legs :-(
[21:06] <wallyworld_> oh :-(
[21:06] <wallyworld_> hope she's ok
[21:06] <thumper> so do I
[21:06] <thumper> she isn't behaving normally
[21:07] <wallyworld_> :-(
[21:07] <thumper> was at the vet yesterday for ear infection
[21:07] <wallyworld_> $$$$$$
[21:07] <thumper> which may have made her a little short tempered
[21:07]  * thumper nods
[21:07] <wallyworld_> i'll ping you later after dinner here
[21:12] <wallyworld_> thumper: what do you mean by "name connection"?
[21:13] <thumper> wallyworld_: we are going to have 'juju connect' and use the name "connection" to refer to a particular thing
[21:13] <wallyworld_> thumper: this work will eventually kill the need for Environ to have to be able to provide mongo addresses
[21:13] <thumper> a connection is to an environment within a juju server as a user
[21:13] <thumper> wallyworld_: I'm happy that there is MongoInfo
[21:14] <thumper> I was just saying I didn't like axw's suggestion of calling it ConnectionInfo
[21:14] <wallyworld_> thumper: so Environ interface has StateInfo() returning a MongoInfo() and APIInfo()
[21:14] <wallyworld_> the MongoInfo return value will go away
[21:15] <thumper> because an Environ doesn't need it?
[21:15] <axw> thumper: yeah agreed, I mostly just didn't like the inconsistency
[21:15] <wallyworld_> Environ has no business knowing how the state persistence layer connects to mongo
[21:15] <thumper> axw: fair enough, consistency ftw
[21:15] <thumper> wallyworld_: agreed
[21:15] <wallyworld_> and i am about to propose a branch the means it doesn't have to
[21:16] <wallyworld_> thumper: you will be happy also with stuff that is being done to unpick State, will fill you in later
[21:16] <thumper> wallyworld_: ack
[21:16] <thumper> wallyworld_: next week is fine
[21:16] <wallyworld_> ok
[21:39] <dpb1> Hi all -- 1.20.1 + latest maas:  anyone seen this? http://paste.ubuntu.com/7777233/ (line 88)
[21:49] <thumper> dpb1: not seen it, but I don't test maas
[21:50]  * thumper off to the vet again
[21:58] <dpb1> thumper: OK... anyone else seen it? :)
[22:53] <waigani> thumper: https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/289