[00:06] <benjo> Does anyone know why after I would get severe mouse lag after waking the machine up from idle?
[00:10] <benjo> Sorry, let me rephrase.. Does anyone know why I would get severe mouse lag after waking the machine up from idle?
[01:29] <LessPlastics> Just recently installed Xubuntu 12.04 on a machine with 4096 MiB of RAM. How come Xubuntu only recognizes 3889 MiB?
[01:29] <LessPlastics> (x86-64 arch was used)
[01:34] <holstein> LessPlastics: that sounds correct to me.. could be some shared with graphics
[01:35] <GridCube> how do i do this: set LANG and LC_ALL to C
[01:35] <GridCube> ?
[02:37] <Murtaugh> LessPlastics: you likely have a cheap ram card, it's capacity is listed based on units of 1000, not 1024
[02:38] <LessPlastics> Murtaugh: It's not
[02:38] <Murtaugh> that works out to 17mb above the number you gave, so some is likely being reserved for hardware or video use
[02:38] <LessPlastics> Murtaugh: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231121
[02:38] <LessPlastics> Ah
[02:38] <LessPlastics> I see
[02:39] <Murtaugh> converting 1000 based to 1024, i got 3906MiB
[02:40] <Murtaugh> it seems to be rather hit and miss whether ram is listed with MiB or MB (I call it drive maker's megabyte :P)
[02:41] <LessPlastics> hahaha
[02:43] <Murtaugh> for megabytes, MiB is about 95% of MB, for GiB it's only about 93%
[02:47] <Murtaugh> 90% fo TiB >_<
[03:33] <codemaniac> some cool xubu themes from repos , anyone suggest ?
[03:36] <GridCube> Murtaugh, thats actually SI compatible unity "mega"byte
[06:28] <xubuntu555> Hello.  Can someone enlighten me as to the difference between Xubuntu desktop vs. alternate?
[06:30] <pleia2> alternate is a text (ncurses) based installer
[06:31] <pleia2> typically used for systems which can't boot the graphical one for whatever reason
[06:31] <xubuntu555> thanks ever so much
[06:31] <pleia2> sure :)
[06:31] <xubuntu555> Does anyone know of an interactive environment that teaches UNIX?
[06:31] <xubuntu555> Like a MUDD for learning unix?
[06:32] <xubuntu555> "Okay, not try doing blablablabla"
[06:32] <xubuntu555> "Now you will learn how to copy files.  Type 'cp blah blah..."
[06:32] <xubuntu555> Exercises in a totally immersive environment that is non-distracting by default.
[06:33] <xubuntu555> I get to the prompt and I don't know what to do.
[06:33] <xubuntu555> I don't know what the commands are and how they work and the man is too cryptic and filled with jargon
[06:33] <xubuntu555> There are no simple examples.
[06:33] <pleia2> I think you'll find most of us here are linux users, so this isn't really the place to ask about unix
[06:34] <xubuntu555> Let me rephrase the question then.
[06:34] <xubuntu555> An livecd that boots into a shell
[06:34] <xubuntu555> that then teaches you how to use all of the text commands, or at least the important ones
[06:34] <pleia2> you're looking for tutorials on learning how to use the shell in, what, xubuntu?
[06:34] <xubuntu555> So that you can become a serious user of the text shell
[06:35] <xubuntu555> I need a tight loop of feedback
[06:35] <pleia2> if you want someone to teach you, you may consider looking at your local university
[06:35] <xubuntu555> I have no money.
[06:35] <pleia2> a lot have introduction to linux classes which will teach the basics
[06:35] <xubuntu555> Can't afford it and I can't go at an arbitrary pace.
[06:36] <pleia2> not sure where you'll find someone to hand hold you through learning for free
[06:36] <pleia2> there are plenty of online tutorials and videos
[06:36] <pleia2> just google for "linux class" or "shell tutorial"
[06:37] <pleia2> but I think most people learn by knowing what they want to do (copy a file, upgrade from the command line) and doing a google search for how to do that specific thing
[06:43] <xubuntu555> Anyone here have any experience with BSD?
[06:45] <pleia2> xubuntu555: please use #xubuntu-offtopic for non-xubuntu support questions :)
[06:46] <xubuntu555> Thank you.  I'm out.
[10:51] <jackk> Hello, can someone tell me if this Linux has flash preinstalled? I am a huge fan of porn and would like to know.
[10:53] <knome> jackk, please notice this is strictly a family-friendly channel.
[10:53] <jackk> knome: Is it?
[10:53] <jackk> I am very sorry.
[10:53] <knome> jackk, and no, xubuntu doesn't come preinstalled with flash because the license issues
[13:22] <tech1> i have ubuntustudio which uses xfce4,  i put "emacs.antialias: false" in the file [~/.Xdefaults] and run the command "xrdb ~/.Xdefaults" in my terminal but it has no effect
[13:23] <tech1> and yes i restarted emacs
[13:25] <tech1> oh wait
[13:27] <tech1> hmm still dosnt work
[13:27] <holstein> in what way?.. what are you wanting?
[13:28] <tech1> im wanting to disable antialiasing in emacs, by putting "emacs.antialias:  false" in the file [~.Xdefaults]... which i am told will do this
[13:29] <tech1> because emacs takes the OS's full antialiasing -but without the OS's "hinting" which makes it very blurry
[13:29] <Sysi> GUI emacs?
[13:30] <tech1> i can turn off antialiasing in my OS completley which makes the text inside the programs look fine, but then the window/program titles with random font sizes are unreadable
[13:30] <tech1> yeh gui emacs23
[13:33] <Sysi> tech1: I'd try putting it to ~/.Xresources too and logging out and back in
[13:35] <Sysi> tech1: I found this line to put in there: emacs*font:  FontName-12:antialias=false
[13:40] <tech1> ok thanks ill try them
[15:48] <silverghost> guys i have a funny question why not make lubuntu based of debian directly instead of ubuntu :D
[15:49] <baizon> silverghost: why not? :)
[15:49] <baizon> silverghost: ubuntu = preconfigured, just install and use
[15:49] <silverghost> i mean xubuntu xD
[15:49] <silverghost> but people have many problems with ubuntu as a base
[15:49] <baizon> on debian you have to configure your system
[15:50] <baizon> silverghost: who has problems?
[15:50] <baizon> i had many problems with linux mint and debian
[15:50] <baizon> xubuntu = zero
[15:50] <silverghost> i think if  xubuntu choose debian as a base it can become a top 10 distro
[15:51] <baizon> but debian will use xfce as default DE now
[15:51]  * drc searches his pockets for troll biscuits...finds none :(
[15:51] <silverghost> bcoz xfce is the best desktop env of 2012 :)
[15:51] <baizon> so we will see if your right
[15:51] <Sysi> xubuntu is based on debian, there's just load of ubuntu guys packaging newer software
[15:52] <silverghost> nope i mean base it of debian stable
[15:52] <Sysi> debian stable is old, duh
[15:52] <silverghost> ubuntu - sid unstable branch od debian
[15:52] <baizon> silverghost: debian stable is to old
[15:52] <silverghost> backports :)
[15:53] <silverghost> i have quit using ubuntu since 11.04 lol
[15:53] <baizon> silverghost: xfce stable on debian is 4.6
[15:53] <baizon> and we got 4.10 right now ;)
[15:53] <silverghost> newest always does not mean good ;)
[15:54] <silverghost> don't take it otherwise am just giving an opinion :)
[15:54] <baizon> of course
[15:54] <Sysi> glad there's debian for you and xubuntu for the rest of us
[15:54] <silverghost> actually am angry with ubuntu and its community :)
[15:55] <silverghost> i have nothing against xubuntu coz i like xfce :)
[15:55] <baizon> how come?
[15:55] <Sysi> we're kinda part of ubuntu community
[15:55] <silverghost> ubuntu irc - chaos
[15:55] <silverghost> ubuntu - arrogant fanboys
[15:55] <silverghost> xD
[15:56] <baizon> that are two different things
[15:56] <baizon> ubuntu as OS and ubuntu as community
[15:56] <silverghost> no i gice u an example when ubuntu was no.1 in distrowatch few years ago lol they were happy now min overtook them they bash distrowatch lol
[15:57] <baizon> distrowatch is broken
[15:57] <baizon> ubuntu got more users than mint
[15:57] <silverghost> even u see google trends mint is still the no.1 distro
[15:57] <Sysi> this is getting badly offtopic
[15:57] <baizon> indeed Sysi, im out then :)
[15:58] <silverghost> do u have offtopic
[15:58] <recon_lap> who cares, they all work :)
[15:58] <baizon> of course
[17:08] <xubuntu609> a lil question guys
[18:03] <xubuntu147> hello?
[18:04] <SkippersBoss> How can we help you today
[18:05] <xubuntu147> I have xubuntu 12.04.  I've been trying to change the text in etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf but I can't save the changes.  Perhaps I don't have the right permissions, or something.  Any ideas?
[18:06] <drc> gksudo leafpad /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf
[18:08] <xubuntu147> Thanks.  That worked.  But it doesn't work when I use Thunar.  I wonder why that is?
[18:08] <drc> You are using thunar as a user not using sudo :)
[18:09] <drc> If you did gksudo thunar, it would work
[18:10] <xubuntu147> That kind of makes sense!  Can you suggest documentation for a bigger picture?
[18:10] <drc> You want a linux primer?
[18:10] <xubuntu147> Free, if possible.
[18:11] <drc> Actually I don't have a URL handy...Anybody?
[18:11] <David-A> xubuntu147: do you know about file permissions in unix and linux? someone owns a file, and the owner can decide what other persons may do with it. normally you owns the file in /home/yourname and "root" owns system files, in /etc, /bin, etc.
[18:12] <xubuntu147> I can sort of follow that, but I need to chew it over for a while.  Thanks!  I'll google the primer.
[18:15] <xubuntu147> bye
[20:24] <daedaluz> where's the config file for xfce notifications? the control panel doesn't seem to work, always being 8 seconds
[20:52] <xubuntu282> hello everybody!
[20:55] <David-A> hi
[21:42] <UnknownFork> Is xfconf included in 12.04?
[21:43] <Unit193> Task: xubuntu-desktop, so yep.
[21:43] <UnknownFork> in what directory is it located in?
[21:44] <UnknownFork> MY touchpad doesn't work and I need to configure it
[21:45] <Unit193> dpkg -L xfconf  and would you be looking for /usr/lib/xfce4/xfconf ?
[21:47] <UnknownFork> kk
[21:47] <UnknownFork> thanks
[22:37] <Jotek_> Hello everybody, is here any Tibia player?
[23:41] <Moonshiner24mUK> Jotek, no but ican help


[06:46] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Full Circle Magazine: Full Circle Weekly News #189 @ https://fullcirclemagazine.org/podcast/full-circle-weekly-news-189/
[07:30] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Ubuntu Blog: Malawi’s TNM selects Canonical’s Charmed OpenStack to help lead virtualisation charge @ https://ubuntu.com//blog/malawis-tnm-selects-canonicals-charmed-openstack-to-help-lead-virtualisation-charge
[11:45] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Jonathan Riddell: Linux App Summit starts on Thursday @ https://jriddell.org/2020/11/10/linux-app-summit-starts-on-thursday/
[15:30] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Ubuntu Blog: Design and Web team summary – 10th November 2020 @ https://ubuntu.com//blog/design-and-web-team-summary-10th-november-2020
[20:01] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Ubuntu Blog: Open Operators Training Day hosted by Canonical: a co-located KubeCon event @ https://ubuntu.com//blog/open-operators-training-day-hosted-by-canonical-a-co-located-kubecon-event
[22:34] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Planet:: Sebastian Schauenburg: st, xft and ubuntu 20.04.1 @ https://www.schauenburg.nl/posts/2020/11/11_st_xft_and_ubuntu.html
[23:11] -SwissBot:#ubuntu-news- ::Fridge:: Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter Issue 656 @ http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2020/11/09/ubuntu-weekly-newsletter-issue-656/ (by guiverc)


[06:47] <bkerensa> godbyk: Can you review https://code.launchpad.net/~thinkndev/ubuntu-docs/improved-lowpower/+merge/169099
[06:47] <bkerensa> godbyk: also I plan on *fingers crossed* passing a rought draft of Getting Started to you on Friday
[06:47] <bkerensa> and if you like what you see we will push it to mailing list for final comments and make any needed changes then move it to wiki
[06:53] <godbyk> bkerensa: Yep. I'll take a look at the merge request.
[06:53] <godbyk> bkerensa: I look forward to seeing your draft of the 'getting started' instructions, too.


[16:30] <msvb> Anyone here?
[16:31] <msvb> I've just proposed a few track meetings for the UDS next month in Oakland.
[16:31] <msvb> And one of them is called Ubuntu TV specifications.
[16:32] <msvb> It relates to use cases not previously accounted for.
[16:32] <msvb> …but for which there will be important questions and requests.
[16:32] <msvb> Jury's out on whether the track meeting proposals will be accepted, but I thought I'd mention the topic here.
[16:37] <msvb> Hoping to get some guidance but oh well.
[16:37] <tgm4883> msvb, thanks for the info. I plan on attending remotely and will have to do that one
[16:37] <msvb> Cool, let's just hope that things work out and the meeting happens.
[16:38] <msvb> Do you know why it's so quiet here? Strange.
[16:38] <msvb> I would expect development and associated communication to be raging.
[16:38] <tgm4883> heh
[16:38] <msvb> Just now before release of 12.04 and Ubuntu TV.
[16:38] <tgm4883> well, not much development happens in here.
[16:38] <tgm4883> when it does, it's usually between 2-4 people
[16:38] <msvb> Don't know maybe the time in Australia is sleeping time.
[16:39] <tgm4883> msvb, you should ping popey though, as he knows more infos
[16:39] <msvb> What do you mean 'not much devel', it's Ubuntu TV, right?
[16:39] <msvb> Who is Popey?
[16:39] <msvb> Problem is I'm very unfamiliar with all levels of Canonical.
[16:40] <tgm4883> well, not much development happens in this channel. I'm assuming that is because we're waiting on some stuff to be merged into the Unity branch
[16:40] <tgm4883> but I haven't checked on that in a bit
[16:40] <msvb> Sounds like you know some things. Can you say how much Ubuntu TV or Unity depends on QtDeclarative (QML)?
[16:41] <tgm4883> I don't know that
[16:41] <msvb> I'm quite curious about a few things. Okay, no problem.
[16:42] <popey> hello
[16:43] <popey> msvb: Saviq may be able to answer your questions
[16:44] <msvb> Oh hello Popey.
[16:44] <msvb> Saviq. And are all you folks in Melbourne, or how should I time my questions?
[16:45] <msvb> Also, do you develop Unity and/or the TV components?
[16:46] <msvb> Touch luck for me, Saviq is not any any of the ubuntu-* channels at the time.
[16:46] <msvb> Maybe if he's based in Australia I'll try again in a few hours.
[16:46] <msvb> Thanks Tgm and Popey.
[16:53] <Saviq> msvb, I'm in Poland, will try and answer your questions later
[16:54] <msvb> Okay, sounds good. Bonne apetit.
[21:47] <gdane> hello
[21:47] <gdane> is any goog tutorials to make unity lens?
[21:48] <gdane> *tutorial


[03:54] <czajkowski> tdr112: narp will be in our office
[03:55] <zmoylan> shhh, he's asleep :-)
[03:55] <czajkowski> I know
[03:55] <czajkowski> I wish I was
[03:55] <zmoylan> ditto
[04:31] <zmoylan> huzzah, rain forecast for ireland.  http://www.yr.no/place/Ireland/Leinster/Dublin/long.html
[10:00] <tdr112> cool its near tog so i might drop it


[00:04] <JanC> Takyoji: they are most likely correct (IE8 is largely standards-compliant ;) )
[00:05] <JanC> so what they mean is: "Your browser is standards compliant, our site is not, so we both are incompatible"
[00:18] <Takyoji> Heh
[00:19] <Takyoji> Because I'm a web developer/designer, and it's not really all that hard to make a website standard compliant. Myself, 17 years of age, self-taught.
[00:19] <Takyoji> XHTML 1.0 Strict valid websites
[00:20] <Takyoji> Yet companies out there fail to even pass HTML 4 Transitional and claim to be "professional" (just like everyone else)
[00:21] <Takyoji> I think I'm eventually going to write my own web crawler in PHP to check over my websites for errors (spelling, syntax error, missing pages, etc). xP
[00:22]  * Takyoji curiously wonders what the browser usage statistics of this group of individuals would be.
[00:23] <Takyoji> Otherwise I actually guess the browser he was using was Internet Explorer 7.
[00:48] <JanC> Takyoji: writing a website that XHTML 1.0 Strict *and* works in all browsers isn't so easy though...
[00:49] <JanC> at least, if you want to do fancy things
[01:01] <Takyoji> Yea, it was quite tricky to deal with the shadow part of the Aqua Eden website without things like PNG and so forth.
[01:01] <Takyoji> But luckily it's completely valid and renders almost the exact same in all top browsers: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Faquaeden.com&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0
[01:02] <Takyoji> Just wish I could just redo it with something simpler since the part of adding shadows to each box takes like 3 or 4 <div> tags for one box.
[01:03] <Takyoji> It's probably people that make IE-only websites are "trained professionals" that just learned "web design" from high school. :P
[01:04] <Takyoji> It's pathetic, at my high school, the teacher just has them do only HTML, no CSS, <font> tags, just copy/pasting JS without knowing what it does, using proprietary tags like <spacer>, and a list of other things. Luckily I'll be making the materials that will be used next year.
[01:05] <Takyoji> And when I told him that <spacer> tag isn't a real tag in the definition, he just had everyone use the <dd> tag instead (and without closing it of course, and not within a <ul> or <ol>)
[01:09] <Takyoji> But, that's just typical high school "web design" I suppose.
[01:50] <Takyoji> I'm wondering if my verbosity is irritating at all in this channel to anyone.
[21:20] <bencrisford> Hey everyone, did you get my email on the mailing list?
[21:21] <bencrisford> Did anyone get my email?
[22:04] <Ben-Crisford> Hi everyone
[22:06] <Takyoji> Hello
[22:06] <Ben-Crisford> did anyone get my email?
[22:07] <Takyoji> Yes, it was received (I'm subscribed to the mailing list)
[22:08] <Ben-Crisford> Feedback on the idea?  Suggestions for projects?
[22:08] <Ben-Crisford> I am still here by the way
[22:08] <Takyoji> Alright
[22:09] <Ben-Crisford> feedback on the idea though?
[22:09] <Takyoji> I'll see if I can generate any ideas
[22:09] <Ben-Crisford> thanks
[22:10] <Ben-Crisford> I think that if we put our minds to it, joining up with the students could get loads more users
[22:12] <Ben-Crisford> we just need a good campaign behind it


[01:58] <sid77> merry xmas
[09:34] <froud> African greetings
[10:35] <froud> hornbeck : ping
[10:46] <froud> whats the process, does everyone document in wiki first, then how do we propose to get the wiki stuff to docbook?
[10:50] <ChrisH> froud: Hi... :) I'm a bit confused about your posting. It sounded like the user's guide and the quick guide contain the same things.
[10:50] <froud> To me the diff is so small
[10:51] <froud> but then remember I'm new
[10:51] <froud> I am looking at the docbook xml files in svn
[10:51] <ChrisH> froud: No problem really. We just talked those two documents over a dozen times. That's why I wanted to know.
[10:51] <froud> but seems you gys do it differently
[10:51] <froud> you do it in wiki
[10:51] <ChrisH> froud: The quick guide is just a directory in the current repository because nobody has yet created an own repository for the quick guide.
[10:51] <froud> the wiki has most of the stuff neded for the UG
[10:52] <froud> That's fine there should be only one repos for docs
[10:52] <ChrisH> froud: IMHO the Wiki is a mess of documents that should be organised.
[10:52] <froud> want my opinion?
[10:52] <ChrisH> Sure
[10:53] <froud> 1. wiki 2 docbook a mission not wanted
[10:53] <froud> 2. make one file set and use docbook profiles
[10:53] <froud> 3.   resuse content amap
[10:53] <froud> reuse
[10:53] <froud> I have a WC of userguide that is now valid and well formed
[10:54] <ChrisH> [1]  Probably it's not a good idea to stuff everything into docbook that is now on the Wiki. But at least we should have some organised document that we can give out to end users.
[10:54] <froud> transforms well in yelp, to xhtml/html and pdf
[10:54] <ChrisH> WC?
[10:54] <froud> Working Copy
[10:54] <froud> The wiki need organization but will do then in the port to docbook
[10:55] <froud> hey, what with svn it is now up
[10:55] <froud> but
[10:55] <froud> I cannot svn cat
[10:55] <froud> I can svn list
[10:55] <ChrisH> I'm confused. Are you pro or con moving wiki contents to docbook?
[10:55] <froud> I see no trunk, tags, or branch
[10:55] <froud> I think wiki is a waste of time
[10:56] <froud> GDP has given you a receipe follow it
[10:56] <ChrisH> At least Wiki is nearly impossible to use for large documents like user's guides, FAQ or such. You need revision control.
[10:56] <froud> Do everything in docbook and transform from there
[10:56] <ChrisH> I hadn't used a wiki for documentation anyway probably.
[10:56] <froud> yes all work should be in svn
[10:57] <froud> All major OSS projects workin in docbook under cvs or svn
[10:57] <ChrisH> I'm used to that, too.
[10:58] <ChrisH> In Ubuntu some things are different. ;)
[10:58] <froud> not good to break a good dev method
[10:58] <ChrisH> baz[aar]  instead of svn/cvs. Wiki instead of well-formed pages. But otoh Ubuntu is quite new and perhaps some of the methods work better. I don't know yet.
[10:59] <froud> ChrisH, I think that it is better to work in docbook src we have many more options this way
[10:59] <froud> in wiki we are limited
[10:59] <ChrisH> At least we need to get going on the docbook documents. And I was just arguing because many people have been talking to screw everything that has been worked on and do it differently. Which obviously led to writers drop their pens and do nothing. And that's roughly where we are currently.
[10:59] <ChrisH> Wiki is more a draft place or a place to organise. I think it's okay for that purpose.
[11:00] <ChrisH> All "serious" documentation will probably be done in docbook.
[11:00] <froud> Yes, but we have to port it. I don't know of any tool that has a parser capable of doing this
[11:00] <ChrisH> Wiki to docbook? There is one the other way round.
[11:00] <froud> drfat in docbook under svn control
[11:00] <froud> what copy paste
[11:01] <ChrisH> But it's pretty useless IMO. The Wiki is cluttered and unorganised. If you want to write a document regarding one topic you need to get the pieces together anyway.
[11:01] <ChrisH> Wiki is okay for "MP3 does not work". But you can hardly give my mother-in-law a copy of the Wiki and tell her to be happy about it.
[11:01] <froud> Ok well I'm hitting the docbook hard
[11:02] <froud> My vision is to have a user and admin guide that can be printed and sold to people who what to buy it
[11:02] <froud> The same sources will be used for the dist
[11:02] <ChrisH> Most of the documentation (as we discussed in Mataro) will be online. Perhaps some day the Quick Guide will be printed and shipped with the CDs. But none of the documents that are written here are intended to be sold.
[11:03] <ChrisH> Although I could imagine that in a year someone (outside the doc team) comes out with "Ubuntu in a Nutshell" from O'Reilly. :)
[11:03] <froud> That's one side I am interested in :-0
[11:03] <froud> people do buy hard copies of documents
[11:03] <ChrisH> I don't think many people here intend to do it for the money. But talk to Mark. :)
[11:04] <froud> ChrisH, explain to me how your svn is oorganized is there a tags, branch, trunk ?
[11:04] <froud> Mark wont mind he will put the money back to the project
[11:05] <ChrisH> As most writers here have neither used DocBook/XML nor Subversion before this is still straightforward. We have not tags or branches yet. And the Canonical people are "motivating" us to get the whole document into baz - where things will be handled much more differently either.
[11:05] <froud> baz?
[11:05] <ChrisH> [money]  As long as the document is shipped for free and interested users can buy hardcopies to sponsor the project... that's perfect.
[11:05] <froud> that's wat I mean
[11:05] <ChrisH> baz = bazaar. An "arch" derivative that is developed by Canonical to replace all existing repository systems.
[11:06] <froud> well we can use it, but is it better than SVN
[11:06] <ChrisH> I didn't like arch that much, yet. But as everything else is handled in arch/baz we probably don't have that much of a choice. ;)
[11:06] <froud> yes we do
[11:06] <froud> this is OSS
[11:06] <ChrisH> arch versus svn is really a religious question. Even worse than Amiga versus Atari, Vi versus Emacs and Linux versus Windows.
[11:07] <froud> more people use svn
[11:07] <ChrisH> I'm very happy with svn. Canonical will give us a sandbox in the next days/weeks to play with it and we can decide whether we move or not.
[11:07] <froud> for the writers who are not technical there are GUI's
[11:07] <ChrisH> Let's be open-minded. If it's nice, let's use it. Some aspects are pretty neat.
[11:07] <ChrisH> Do you know a GUI for writing DocBook/XML? conglomerate doesn't count.
[11:08] <froud> I know conglomerate
[11:08] <froud> I was going to be part ofthe team
[11:08] <froud> but opted out
[11:08] <froud> I did not like the politics
[11:08] <froud> I use Oxygen XML Editor
[11:08] <froud> but XXE is a good tool for those that want WYSIOO
[11:09] <ChrisH> oxygen? How free is it?
[11:09] <froud> It's not
[11:09] <ChrisH> Bad.
[11:09] <froud> but it is the best and cheapest on the market
[11:09] <froud> Suports RNG
[11:09] <ChrisH> People who are volunteers will hardly spend money for working for free.
[11:09] <ChrisH> How much would it be?
[11:09] <froud> has xslt debug
[11:10] <froud> cheaper than xml spy
[11:10] <ChrisH> So only half a billion euros?
[11:10] <froud> emacs=psgmls
[11:10] <froud>  is good :-)
[11:10] <froud> No see http://www.inwords.co.za/products.html
[11:10] <froud> click through from there
[11:11] <froud> IMHO the best way to hack        docbook is in the source
[11:13] <ChrisH> I'm doing it in the VI and it can become a little confusing.
[11:13] <froud> So as i understand it Canconical will force arch. When is thi scheduled
[11:13] <froud> Do the writers know arch?
[11:13] <froud> is there a gui front-end?
[11:14] <froud> if not then I think it will be difficult no matter how good arch is
[11:14] <froud> not everyone knows to use the command line, especially writers. that's my experience. Only nuts like us
[11:20] <ChrisH> It's not forced really.  It's the second project of Canonical. Ubuntu and Bazaar.
[11:21] <ChrisH> Look at www.canonical.com
[11:21] <froud> How long before ithappens
[11:21] <ChrisH> Also I assume that everyone here uses svn from the command line.
[11:21] <ChrisH> Sandbox in January. No fixed schedule.
[11:22] <froud> Hmmm I will install it here and checkit
[11:22] <froud> Ok now I have one big patch to give
[11:22] <froud> I was going to do it on a per file basis
[11:23] <froud> but seeing as there are so many changes
[11:23] <froud> and my patch makes userguide valid and well-formed, perhaps I should just do one big patch
[11:24] <froud> what do you think?
[11:24] <ChrisH> That's the largest difference in arch/baz. No single files. Everything in a directory will be committed. There is "svn add".
[11:24] <ChrisH> Sure, make it valid! :)
[11:24] <ChrisH> s/There is/There is *no*/
[11:24] <froud> Ok so I will send one big patch
[11:26] <froud> sure c ya
[05:05] <froud> sivang, shalom
[05:07] <sivang> hehe
[05:08] <sivang> they are not, but if we want them to host the repo, we will have to use arch
[05:08] <froud> im look at arch now
[05:08] <froud> I see there is a GUI for those who dont like command line
[05:09] <froud> its called archway
[05:09] <froud> he's the patch https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4978
[05:10] <froud> but as I understand the arch stuff wont be for a while and even then the doc team have to say yes to it
[05:10] <froud> so I think we should impliment proper svn
[05:11] <froud> we can always move to arch later if the people want to use it
[05:13] <froud> I posted a proposal to setup svn on th emailing list
[05:14] <froud> ChrisH, thinks that the wiki stuf is all a mess, need organization
[05:15] <froud> I think he agrees tis better to use svn and do work in docbook
[05:15] <froud> I agree, I can't see th epoint in doing in wiki and then trying toport
[05:15] <froud> to port
[05:15] <froud> there is no easy way to do that
[05:16] <sivang> I agree also
[05:16] <froud> +1
[05:16] <sivang> We should then just continue using the svn server, possibly hosted in a relaiable place,
[05:16] <sivang> do work in docbook,
[05:17] <sivang> and use the wiki (as I always said) to sketch padding and scribbles.
[05:17] <sivang> ChrisH: you here?
[05:17] <froud> umm we need to keep docbook src in svn and scribble in that source
[05:17] <froud> NOT WIKI
[05:17] <froud> sivang, its a waste of time
[05:18] <froud> with svn we can easily see everyones changes
[05:18] <froud> with wiki we cannot
[05:18] <froud> with svn we can do many more things
[05:18] <sivang> I meant, use the wikias an errata souce :)
[05:18] <sivang> source
[05:18] <froud> wiki limts us
[05:18] <sivang> wiki = README.TXT , last minute, doc missed stuff :)
[05:18] <froud> wiki should only hold information about the project and doc project
[05:18] <sivang> nothing more then that
[05:18] <froud> yes
[05:19] <sivang> and we alos come up a plan to allow people to use the wiki when they wanna start contribute and don't yet wanna deal with svn, they go and start.
[05:19] <froud> as you know I am new, so I am not sure if perhaps all my suggestions are just too much
[05:19] <sivang> this is something we discussed longly in Mataro, the low barrier to joinig..
[05:20] <sivang> basically, these are issues we all have bothered much with -
[05:20] <sivang> including mataro, mako you around?
[05:20] <froud> MOst projects use cvs or svn and docbbook
[05:20] <sivang> this is my preference also,
[05:20] <froud> the GDP project has a templat ewe can follow
[05:20] <sivang> wiki should only used to proposal and last minutes and stuff and errata
[05:21] <froud> agreed ++++++1
[05:21] <sivang> we may want to talk to shaun about this, he is longly not satisfied with the current state of the GDP, and noted to me he would like to maybe devise some new plans
[05:21] <sivang> He also doesn't like too much the GNOME doc guidelines, he thinks they need some kind of refreshment.
[05:22] <froud> as I said I hope all the proposals and changes I am asking for are not going to annoy folks
[05:23] <froud> Yes Shaun will help. He has much experience
[05:23] <froud> but I think we are talking about the basic infrustructure more than anything here
[05:25] <froud> sivang, you there?
[05:26] <sivang> yes
[05:26] <froud> thought I lost you
[05:26] <sivang> no , I'm here although doing 100 things in parallel :)
[05:27] <froud> he he know th efeeling
[05:28] <froud> Anywayat patch makes the userguide files valid and well formed.
[05:28] <froud> The XInclude namespace is now declared in all docs
[05:28] <sivang> anywa, when making suggestion please review old threads and stuff, this is a discussion that usually comes up whenever a new person comes and wants to contrib :)
[05:28] <sivang> froud: that fixes the DocBook abuse? :)
[05:29] <sivang> the thing, we still don't have a valid to my tsate team infrastructure, but hopefully we would get there,
[05:29] <sivang> btw has canonical not provided a nice web gui to use bazzar?
[05:29] <froud> I dont think one should have to go back on threads for this stuff, point is it was talked about and nothing done. This time I hope we can do something about it
[05:30] <froud> Could be, but I still think a fat client is required
[05:30] <froud> I offer my services to get this right
[05:31] <froud> way I understand is that writers have pretty much put down there pens because of these issues
[05:31] <sivang> so to drive fears off from people who feel initimated by a "new" system :)
[05:31] <sivang> what do you mean a fat clinet?
[05:31] <froud> Ok lets break this one step at a time.
[05:32] <sivang> sure thing
[05:32] <froud> peple have stopped work because of these problems right?
[05:33] <froud> not good
[05:33] <froud> forget the past. let's fix it
[05:33] <froud> impliment svn in secure space
[05:33] <froud> impliment in accordance with standard
[05:34] <froud> OSS people know how this stuff works
[05:34] <froud> and for those that dont we will support
[05:34] <froud> if people want arch then we can easily move to arch
[05:35] <froud> but we dont know when or if we will use arch
[05:35] <sivang> this also had been thought of, but we are currently a small group of contributor,s
[05:35] <froud> small or not we need to collaborate effectively
[05:35] <sivang> and to facilitate for all the people who would be able to inly contribute on the wiki it would take too much manpower to compenstate.
[05:35] <froud> the revision management system is the hub for dev
[05:35] <sivang> inly = only
[05:35] <froud> I dont care if it is cvs, svn or arch
[05:36] <froud> we should not come to a position where people stop writing because of decision problems
[05:37] <froud> majority of projects use this system and it works
[05:37] <froud> now I dont have the power to change this so who will?
[05:39] <froud> sivang, I feel like I'm having a monologue here
[05:39] <sivang> no I'm still her e:)
[05:40] <froud> so what to do?
[05:41] <sivang> ok, we need to have a relaiable place for the svn, who voulnenteers? :)
[05:41] <sivang> or maybe can we have a svn reop hosted in the canonical farm?
[05:41] <froud> I thought it could be at canonical. If not I can ask at TSF  if we can use edison
[05:42] <sivang> who approves such stuff on TSF?
[05:42] <froud> I will have to wait for Thomas Black he is my contact point
[05:42] <sivang> eh right
[05:43] <froud> Which ever the case, if I can get a user access to the server I can have a structured svn up and configured in 30 mins
[05:43] <sivang> don't you think this should be discussed with mark also? and people who are incharge of the technical sites of ubuntu? The Technical Board :)
[05:44] <sivang> ?
[05:44] <sivang> or elmo for that matter.
[05:44] <froud> whoever, but a decision must be made
[05:44] <sivang> sure
[05:44] <sivang> I agree
[05:45] <froud> I cant understand why people are worried about barrier to entry
[05:45] <froud> most of the people contributing to OSS know revision management and docbook
[05:45] <sivang> well, this is also one of mark and other people in the projet - So I'd rather not subestimate it..
[05:46] <sivang> froud: the thing is, the whole ponit with launchpad and other stuff in ubuntu is to lower the contribution to barrier by the community.
[05:46] <sivang> thus, you have rosetta for transaltion, baz as the frontend to arch etc..
[05:46] <froud> I dont see how bring it to a halt has done that :-)
[05:47] <sivang> no ofcourse, I am not talking about the current state, which is bad.
[05:47] <froud> that's fine there ar gui's to cvs and svn
[05:47] <sivang> so we should :
[05:47] <sivang> 1) first have a WORKING repo somewhere safe and technically able - canonica.com
[05:47] <froud> +1
[05:47] <sivang> 2) Make for the low technical people to use our revisiong management stools.
[05:48] <froud> +1
[05:48] <sivang> 3) Bring this to the CC / TB meeting for approbal.
[05:48] <froud> +1
[05:48] <sivang> 4) start working as hell!! :)
[05:48] <froud> +1
[05:48] <froud> +1 = I will help you
[05:48] <sivang> ok, great and thanks :)
[05:49] <sivang> btw, I know cory burger is working on understanding arch good, to write a new guide to baz so doc team could maybe switch to it.
[05:49] <sivang> we should also probably talk to him about this, see what state he is currently is with the new guide maybe,.
[05:49] <sivang> what do you think?
[05:50] <froud> depnds on the time. as I said, we can always migrate to arch, svn I can have up in 30mins
[05:50] <sivang> Why don't we start a thread on the mailing list to see what peopel thingk?
[05:50] <froud> as for training
[05:50] <froud> see
[05:50] <sivang> froud: do you have aplace to put it already?
[05:50] <sivang> froud: I mean, a websoace accessible with an easy domain ? :)
[05:50] <froud> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
[05:51] <sivang> red-bean is yours?
[05:51] <froud> I can temp put it at TSF, but I would like to ask first
[05:51] <froud> no red bean is not mine
[05:51] <froud> its a book on svn
[05:51] <sivang> ah ok,
[05:51] <froud> there's your training
[05:51] <froud> it's command line, but good
[05:51] <sivang> ok, that should be kept in mind.
[05:51] <sivang> how is the guide? newbie freidnly?
[05:52] <froud> then I recomend eSvn http://esvn.umputun.com/
[05:52] <froud> the guide is very freindly
[05:52] <froud> eSvn is the best GUI front end IMHO
[05:52] <sivang> let's start the new conributir page onb the wiki
[05:52] <sivang> and put all this info there,
[05:53] <froud> url
[05:53] <sivang> so new people would see a streamlined way to start working with us
[05:53] <sivang> ok, I will start a page there, and give you the linkg in 10 minutes.
[05:53] <froud> what do you wnatto put there?
[05:53] <froud> want
[05:54] <sivang> The main webpage for the doc team also serves as a "welcome" page, but we should have asomething more instructable
[05:54] <sivang> take a look here:
[05:54] <sivang> froud: are you sure nobody from canonical sent you as a cover agent to the doc team? :)))
[05:54] <sivang> points
[05:55] <froud> nop I am here of my own accord :-)
[05:55] <froud> see this http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/project/web-project.html
[05:55] <froud> everything you need to get started with the LearnLinux project is togeher in a single place
[05:55] <sid77> hi
[05:56] <sivang> hey sid77  :)
[05:56] <sivang> whasspu?
[05:56] <froud> hi
[05:56] <sid77> bloated
[05:56] <sivang> why bloatd?
[05:56] <froud> role me down the corridor
[05:56] <sivang> ehehe
[05:56] <froud> ate ourselve silly
[05:56] <sivang> froud is also :)
[05:56] <sid77> I can barely move under the load span (or what the right quotation is)
[05:57] <sivang> sid77: hehehehehe
[05:57] <froud> sivang, you want to have something like http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/project/web-project.html
[05:58] <sivang> oh darn I just did an upgrade, I need to log out and in my sessions,
[05:58] <sivang> brbr
[05:58] <sivang> brb
[05:58] <froud> ok
[05:58] <sid77> sivang, I'll push for having nethack into ubuntu ;) (jk)
[05:58] <sivang> (can't open the broswer)
[05:58] <sivang> sid77: nethack?
[05:58] <sivang> hehe
[05:58] <sivang> it's a game right?
[05:59] <sivang> Overhead dungeon-crawler game (dummy package)
[05:59] <sid77> ?what are we joking about?
[05:59] <sivang> do apt-cache show nethack
[05:59] <sid77> sivang, yeah, but it is only in universe (iirc)
[05:59] <sivang> eh, then we should have it in main!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
[05:59] <sivang> MOUHHAHAHA
[05:59] <sivang> :)
[05:59] <sivang> anyway, I'm out and in in a second.
[05:59] <sivang> see ya all
[05:59] <froud> yo people have a low concerntration span today
[06:00] <sid77> bye
[06:00] <sivang> froud: a sec :)
[07:10] <sivang> froud: back
[07:13] <froud> sivang, gee that was a long sec
[07:13] <sivang> froud: yeah i know :( sorry , I had a rather instable electric setup here..
[07:14] <sivang> froud: that is I have..
[07:15] <sivang> plus I have some irc client slowdownd and I tried to check some other servers but this apparently seems the best at the moment.
[07:15] <froud> b back in 5 gotta take my daughters to bed
[07:17] <sivang> froud: no prob, sorry about the delay
[07:17] <sivang> froud: take your time
[07:18] <froud> wheew OK
[07:18] <froud> where were we
[07:18] <froud> ?
[07:23] <sivang> yes
[07:23] <sivang> here, just reading over the wiki wishlist
[07:23] <sivang> which is _long_
[07:23] <sivang> :)
[07:23] <sivang> I states some stepa that we can take to make things better,
[07:23] <sivang> I agreed with  you that there is a current problem with the way we do stuff, and don;t :)
[07:24] <sivang> and that everything should be first discussed over the mailing list - so we could get the oppinion of other doc team memebrs which are not always on irc,
[07:25] <sivang> and see how we vcan get working in the next weel - we might want to bring the technical issue if the reporistiry to the technical board agenda,
[07:25] <sivang> see how fast we can get a server in canonica's space.
[07:25] <froud> sure, I think it always wise to ask. The community is strong, very strong
[07:25] <sivang> yes ofcourse. It's just that there has already been talks about canonical providing the space for the server,
[07:25] <sivang> so we just need to go and ask
[07:26] <froud> btw why is stuff not there from the onset?
[07:26] <froud> seems logical
[07:26] <sivang> I also said that we should maybe investigate how we _can_ use baz to do doc wrok,
[07:26] <froud> revision management
[07:26] <sivang> that way probably easing off the adoption of the doc repo by canonical.
[07:27] <sivang> why it's not there?
[07:27] <sivang> Good qustion.
[07:27] <sivang> Maybe it is because still, the project is yet very young, and else I don't know.
[07:27] <froud> I am concerned about arch
[07:27] <sivang> in what way?
[07:27] <froud> seems people (writers) don't know it
[07:28] <sivang> do you?
[07:28] <froud> it looks much the same as most rms
[07:28] <froud> a few things different
[07:28] <froud> but that is ok with me
[07:29] <froud> I would think that SVN is a better choice
[07:29] <froud> from what I can see so far
[07:29] <froud> also we have already the training thanks to red-bean
[07:30] <froud> no need to labor
[07:31] <froud> unless canonical want the ubuntu doc team to document bazaar
[07:31] <froud> in which case it will make a great test case
[07:32] <sivang> I think they do, and I think that corey burger is on to it, thought I havn't been able to talk to him over the last couple of days though.
[07:32] <froud> Ok I have a person who I can approach in canonical. should I approach with our suggestions?
[07:32] <sivang> yes, who is he btw? Black?
[07:33] <froud> no a person at cononical not TSF
[07:33] <froud> btw do we have a doc team lead?
[07:33] <sivang> would you mind telling me who is he?
[07:33] <froud> she
[07:33] <sivang> lousie? jabe?
[07:33] <sivang> jane?
[07:34] <sivang> ah ok, if It's louise I think she already left canonical, but we might want to talk to elmo about this.
[07:34] <sivang> (James Troup) I think he's incharge of all the server farm and other stuff
[07:35] <froud> yes Jane Silber
[07:35] <sivang> regarding the lead thing, it was long ago agreed that we would do better without a lead,
[07:35] <froud> always good to have a lead :-)
[07:35] <sivang> as this is a community project and the actual administrative part of the project already gets handled by the secretary which is enrico zini
[07:36] <sivang> so we have a person to complain to, and who takes care of us wrt to wiki gardnering and etc.
[07:36] <froud> ok so enrico, if you're listening, we need action
[07:36] <sivang> let's see if he online
[07:37] <sivang> no he not :(
[07:37] <sivang> well, we should start posting stuff to the mailing list, what do you think?
[07:37] <sivang> have you already maybe?
[07:37] <froud> I did
[07:37] <sivang> ah ok, lemme see.
[07:38] <froud> is there a proposal in the archive on how to move wiki to docbook?
[07:39] <froud> I dont see one
[07:40] <sivang> try and look for the doc team bof on the conf wiki
[07:40] <froud> huh?
[07:41] <sivang> we have discussed it over in Mataro, lemme check
[07:41] <froud> what is Mataro
[07:42] <sivang> where we had the ubuntu conference.
[07:42] <sivang> 2 weeks ago approx.
[07:42] <sivang> in spain
[07:42] <froud> ah b 4 my time :-)
[07:43] <sivang> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Conference
[07:43] <sivang> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamBOF
[07:44] <sivang> froud: what do you mena b 4 your time?
[07:44] <froud> 4 weeks ago
[07:45] <froud> I just got here three days ago
[07:45] <froud> :-)
[07:46] <froud> OK I will put forward a request to Jane and outline our thinking. I see that John Hornbeck is +1 for the SVN proposal and if you reply that will be two people
[07:48] <sivang> froud: still reading backlog email, what do ChrisH thinkg?
[07:48] <sivang> his oppinion is highly important
[07:49] <froud> As far as I can see ChrisH is also +1, although he is not sure casue of the arch story. He agrees with the approach I have proposed. i.o.w work in docbook under revision repos.
[07:49] <froud> cause
[07:49] <froud> basics about project and getting involved in kiki
[07:49] <froud> wiki
[07:50] <froud> Hopefully he will also vote on the mailing list
[07:50] <sivang> ok, before you go and do anything , lemme finisht hte mailing list backlog :)
[07:51] <froud> Hey I just got a draft copy of Eric Raymonds new book "The Art of Unix Programming"
[07:51] <froud> cool stuff
[07:52] <froud> amazing what you can find in an inbox when you actually look at it
[07:54] <froud> Ok, hey I'm gonna go have a shower. Maybe see ya later. If I look at the screen anymore I'm bound to start bleeding from the eyes.
[08:00] <sivang> froud: god, go and have some rest :)
[09:18] <froud> sivang, yala carata kol ha email shel cha
[09:21] <froud> sivang, tov chabibi tegid ken or lo al ha svn sipur, al ha mail-list, ad mahar l'hit
[09:38] <sivang> froud: hehe
[09:39] <sivang> froud: is this the mail about the FAQ proposal?
[09:43] <sivang> froud: here?
[09:46] <cenerentola> what?
[09:46] <sivang> cenerentola: no nothing :)


[07:33] <Saviq> o/
[07:36] <tsdgeos> Saviq: you better?
[07:41] <Saviq> tsdgeos, yeah, very much so, thanks
[07:41] <tsdgeos> :)
[07:42] <Saviq> I don't remember having been killed like that for a wee
[07:42] <Saviq> k
[08:09] <Saviq> dednick, hey, you been able to reproduce bug #1436982 ?
[08:44] <dednick> Saviq: hey. haven't tried yet. busy with the AP tests for sprint
[08:44] <Saviq> kk
[08:44] <dednick> I can give it a try though...
[08:44] <dednick> shouldnt take long
[08:45] <dednick> alkthough i seem to have lost my simcard :/
[08:48] <seb128> Saviq, hey, wb
[08:49] <Saviq> seb128, thanks
[08:49] <seb128> Saviq, bug #1435988 ... no, no idea, but I hit it a few time and I saw askubuntu and g+ comment from customers who hit it as well
[08:49] <seb128> it's quite confusing if you are used to unlock from that side
[08:49] <Saviq> agreed, not sure how to diagnose, unfortunately
[08:49] <seb128> Saviq, for sure there is a way to work on it out of that having steps to reproduce
[08:50] <seb128> incomplete seems a poor status
[08:50] <seb128> it's going to expire and autoclose
[08:50] <seb128> but it's a valid bu
[08:50] <seb128> bug
[08:50] <Saviq> here ya go, Confirmed
[08:50] <seb128> thanks
[08:57] <dednick> Saviq: can confirm. it's quite bad :(
[08:57] <dednick> seems to be whenever anything is added/removed from notifications.
[08:58] <Saviq> mhm, triaged it, will try in rtm too, feels like a regression
[09:11] <dednick> Saviq: do the autopilot tests always run in the same order?
[09:11] <Saviq> dednick, no
[09:11] <dednick> Saviq: why not?
[09:11] <Saviq> dednick, I think they're randomized on purpose
[09:11] <dednick> Saviq: ah. k
[09:11] <Saviq> dednick, because that could hide issues with the tests :)
[09:12] <dednick> Saviq: yeah. figured.
[09:13] <dednick> should probably run them twice in that case ;)
[09:13] <dednick> in smoke tests anyway
[09:18] <dednick> unity: anyone know if there's a way to gracefully exit phablet-test-run before it's finished?
[09:39] <Saviq> dednick, don't think there is
[09:39] <Saviq> dednick, it's just an autopilot call on the device, and I don't think AP can do anything smart on Ctrl+C or anything
[09:39] <Saviq> dednick, btw, can't seem to reproduce the clear-all lag on rtm, so likely a regression
[10:40] <Mirv> tsdgeos: hey, back to bug #1421009, I've just added a comment explaining various suites that 100% pass on mako without the PPA, and have failures with the PPA even with the AP fix. did you see the failures and do you have any insight where the timing (?) problems could lie? I'd ping brendand next again from QA but I believe it'd help them the more they know about how the system changes with the Qt patches.
[10:46] <tsdgeos> Mirv: it's hard to explain
[10:46] <tsdgeos> honestly of all the failures i've been able to find
[10:46] <tsdgeos> none actually seemed qdbus related
[10:47] <tsdgeos> which to me they seem like they've been there all the time
[10:47] <tsdgeos> just hidden by qdbus serializing lots of things on the main thread
[10:48] <tsdgeos> which is no longer happening with these patches
[10:48] <tsdgeos> so threads run more "freely"
[10:48] <tsdgeos> i'll write that in the bug
[10:50] <tsdgeos> now, i agree there's probably easier ways to fix the bug "for now"
[10:51] <tsdgeos> without that large patchset
[10:51] <Mirv> tsdgeos: indeed I can on a high level understand how threads flowing freely affects many things. but it seems that the failures we get on mako are not "this test is failing", but "tests fail randomly"
[10:51] <tsdgeos> if we know that it comes from the fact that libusermetrics is using dbus now
[10:51] <tsdgeos> Mirv: that's what threads have
[10:51] <tsdgeos> they always run in different order
[10:51] <Mirv> right, it seems it was introduced when the libusermetrics landing happened
[10:51] <tsdgeos> so stuff will fail randomly
[10:53] <tsdgeos> Mirv: you would not know which landing specifically?
[10:58] <Mirv> tsdgeos: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libusermetrics/1.1.1+15.04.20150219-0ubuntu1 that landed on image #106 on 20150220: http://people.canonical.com/~ogra/touch-image-stats/106.changes
[10:59] <Mirv> tsdgeos: and it's not really that it started using dbus, maybe it started it using differently, now via click
[10:59] <Mirv> diff at http://launchpadlibrarian.net/198152771/libusermetrics_1.1.1%2B14.10.20141020-0ubuntu1_1.1.1%2B15.04.20150219-0ubuntu1.diff.gz
[10:59] <tsdgeos> sure
[12:52] <Saviq> mzanetti, here's what we talked about last week: bug #1438172
[13:00] <mzanetti> Saviq, ack, thanks
[13:49] <ricotz> Trevinho, hi :), did you see an issue like that on unity7/bamf? https://answers.launchpad.net/plank/+question/263909
[13:49] <tsdgeos> noone knows how to disable apparmor?
[13:50] <tsdgeos> i want it to make it stop unable to do my work
[13:50] <tsdgeos> it's annoying how underdocumented it is
[13:55] <seb128> tsdgeos, how does he stop you to do your work?
[13:55] <tsdgeos> seb128: i can't run autopilot tests
[13:56] <seb128> why not?
[13:56] <tsdgeos> because it complains about autopilot not being able to access dbus
[13:56] <seb128> if that's a specific bug we should fix it for everyone
[13:56] <tsdgeos> the bug is that one needs 154 commands to run autopilot tests it may seem :D
[13:56] <seb128> can you open at least a bug about it (if not done yet)?
[13:56] <seb128> tsdgeos, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingApparmor
[13:57] <tsdgeos> seb128: phablet-config autopilot --dbus-probe enable as suggested by Mirv fixed it
[13:58] <seb128> good
[13:58] <Mirv> there are a bit too many things people need to remember when running AP tests
[13:59] <Mirv> I'm using ubuntu-ui-toolkit's test script, but ideally 'phablet-test-run' would unlock and lit the phone, enable dbus probe, checkout and update tests if necessary, install needed dependencies etc
[13:59] <seb128> yeah, the wrapper should default to that maybe, or be smart and detect when it's needed
[13:59] <greyback> +1
[14:17] <om26er> tsdgeos, Hi! some times on first boot my dash (...and all other scopes) looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/crDZ2G8.png
[14:18] <tsdgeos> lol
[14:18] <tsdgeos> the empty images is back
[14:18] <om26er> icons do get automatically loaded after like 2 minutes flat
[14:19] <tsdgeos> om26er: which image?
[14:19] <om26er> tsdgeos, vivid-proposed, latest.
[14:19] <om26er> r168
[14:22] <tsdgeos> om26er: is it possible that you have very bad network at that point?
[14:23] <om26er> tsdgeos, could be, my internet have not been too great.
[14:23] <om26er> tsdgeos, but why does it affect click scope
[14:23] <tsdgeos> because how quick loads async images
[14:24] <tsdgeos> once there's 8 http async images loading
[14:24] <tsdgeos> it won't load any other
[14:24] <tsdgeos> even if it's a local file
[14:24] <tsdgeos> which is stupid and i fixed it for Qt 5.6
[14:24] <tsdgeos> i could try to convince ourselves to run a patch not to do that in Qt 5.4
[14:24] <tsdgeos> i guess
[14:25] <tsdgeos> om26er: can you open a bug and i'll see what i can do to convince people to accept that patch and then we can see if it's really the fix or not?
[14:25] <om26er> tsdgeos, sure.
[14:39] <mhall119> w/w #unity
[14:42] <davmor2> tsdgeos: not meaning to be funny, but these are installed apps where the icon is in the desktop file so why would BB speed matter at all?  It should fetch from local and not touch the net at all surely?
[14:42] <tsdgeos> davmor2: you may want to read the explanation i already gave
[14:43] <davmor2> tsdgeos: ah yeap got it
[17:43] <mzanetti> Saviq, https://code.launchpad.net/~mzanetti/unity8/fix-launcher-losing-apps/+merge/254613
[17:47] <Saviq> mzanetti, tx!


[10:47] <indent> hi all
[10:47] <indent> i need a help
[10:47] <indent> i cant boot into windows after i install ubuntu
[10:47] <indent> can somebody help me?
[14:56] <indent> hi..


[16:48] <cmaloney> We're having a blizzard here
[16:50] <jrwren> i saw! my sister sent me video.
[17:07] <greg-g> high of 87 here today
[17:08] <jrwren> high of S&P500 here today too
[17:08] <jrwren> ;)
[17:14] <cmaloney> greg-g: https://openweathermap.org/city/4989005
[17:45] <jrwren> i just got an interesting email
[17:45] <jrwren> Your account has been identified as having started an instance or continuing to run instances of Ubuntu 16.04 over the last 6 months.
[17:46] <jrwren> nice of AWS to do that.
[17:58] <cmaloney> That's... interesting
[18:23] <jrwren> yeah. i really should upgrade that instance... but it is ticking along so nicely, I don't want to mess with it.
[19:01] <cmaloney> Same. I have my mail server thatneeds upgrading
[19:14] <jrwren> this is mail :)
[19:15] <cmaloney> There needs to be a distro for mail servers
[19:15] <cmaloney> no need for updates, just plugs along for 10+ years
[19:17] <cmaloney> And no, not BSD. :)
[21:57] <Scary_Guy> I wish I could find the story about the mystery phantom server that they eventually found had been sealed off with drywall that was running BSD.