[03:51] <Logan> somebody might want to do something about MrRobinhood5 in #ubuntu
[03:51] <Logan> he keeps joining/quitting due to connection issues
[03:52] <Logan> Flannel: cheers
[08:10] <Myrtti> ok...


[00:03] <spiv> mgz: ooh: IntegrityError: update or delete on table "bugwatch" violates foreign key constraint "bugwatchactivity_bug_watch_fkey" on table "bugwatchactivity"
[00:12] <mgz> spiv: does that need a bug filing against something or is there one already?
[00:13] <mgz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/malone/+bugs?field.searchtext=IntegrityError
[00:13] <mgz> nothing similar looking there.
[00:13] <spiv> I *think* the malone team will take care of that for you, I'm pretty sure the OOPS reports are routinely analysed and turned into bugs.
[00:14] <spiv> But there's no harm in filing a bug with the OOPS ID
[00:14] <spiv> It might even speed the process.
[01:05] <poolie> hi mgz
[01:05] <mgz> hey poolie.
[01:11] <mgz> hm, some dupe finder on file does something useful for once and turns up bug 575911
[01:11] <mgz> I'm guessing the fix wasn't intended to make it an OOPSing IntegrityError
[01:42] <poolie> haha
[02:13] <poolie> hi spiv, how are you?
[02:29] <spiv> poolie: pretty good.  About to submit a merge proposal for bug 309682, then I was thinking of starting on the HPSS request jam's shallow branch mail talked about.
[02:30] <spiv> poolie: so, doing better than the Australian cricket team :)
[02:58] <poolie> hahaha
[03:10] <poolie> spiv that sounds good to fix
[03:10] <poolie> i'm a bit tired and struggling through my mail and todo list
[03:10] <poolie> i might stop it and try some easy bugs soon
[03:18] <spiv> Hmm, as usual, reviewing my diff before I'm about to submit it I think “I could add more tests...”
[03:19] <poolie> heh, i didn't think about spiv and cricket until just now :)
[03:47] <abentley> spiv: Since you're patch pilot and you like incremental diffs: https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/bzr/is_executable/+merge/42197
[03:48] <spiv> heh
[03:48] <spiv> actually that was last week, vila needs to update /topic I guess...
[03:48] <spiv> But sure, I can take a look.
[03:49] <spiv> I wonder a little about changing the behaviour in a stable branch
[03:49] <spiv> Even if it better behaviour.
[03:49] <abentley> spiv: Well, that's fair.
[03:50] <abentley> spiv: But it's buggy behaviour, too.
[03:50] <abentley> spiv: It causes iter_changes to report bogus data.
[03:51] <abentley> spiv: We can resumit it for lp:bzr if you think that's best.
[03:52] <poolie> thanks for proposing that, abentley
[03:52] <spiv> Buggy behaviour that was codified in tests... so buggy in a way that perhaps isn't immediately obvious, so it does seem pretty plausible some plugin might be depending on it, even accidentally.
[03:52] <poolie> spiv, who is pp now?
[03:52] <poolie> and i wonder if you should send a brief report?
[03:52] <spiv> I'm really unsure how large the risk is here.
[03:52] <spiv> It's an "unknown unknown", I guess ;)
[03:52] <spiv> poolie: vila I think, and good point...
[03:52] <abentley> poolie: np.
[03:53] <spiv> abentley: if landing in lp:bzr is good enough for Launchpad to benefit from the fix, then my inclination is to do that, just to be conservative with our stable releases.
[03:53] <abentley> spiv: Okay, I'll retarget it to lp:bzr, and then we'll spin a bzr-2.2.2-launchpad-1 for ourselves.
[03:54] <abentley> spiv: It's not, but we can diverge until we get on the 2.3 series.
[03:54] <spiv> *nod*, well, it at least helps a bit to have an approved patch to backport to your diverged 2.2.
[03:55] <abentley> spiv: true.
[03:56] <poolie> the general plan was to have lp run bzr 2.2 releases, until we get to 2.3rc or the last beta
[03:56] <poolie> i'll read it too
[03:56] <abentley> spiv, poolie: resubmitted as https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/bzr/is_executable/+merge/42203
[03:58] <poolie> i'd really rather not have lp run its own branch if we can avoid it
[03:59] <abentley> spiv, poolie: And resubmitted once more, because 2.2 has unmerged revisions: https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/bzr/is_executable/+merge/42204
[04:00] <poolie> abentley, i'm so glad you added resubmit&retarget
[04:00] <abentley> poolie: Cool.
[04:02] <abentley> poolie, spiv: I can do a more conservative fix to 2.2 if I adjust the is_executable callsite.  Then it would only affect PreviewTree._comparison_data.
[04:08] <poolie> spiv did you want to tweak anything in https://code.launchpad.net/~eric97/bzr/fix-merge-docs/+merge/40671
[04:09] <spiv> poolie: no, it looked good to go except for the contributor agreement
[04:21] <dmuir> is branching supposed to be fairly immediate?
[04:21] <dmuir> or am I missing something in my setup?
[04:22] <bob2> is that an LP question? or are you branching locally?
[04:22] <dmuir> I've got a shared repo, with a svn mirror in a branch called mainline
[04:22] <dmuir> branching locally
[04:23] <dmuir> when I do `bzr branch mainline new-feature`, it seems to sit there for several seconds
[04:24] <dmuir> Yes, a few seconds isn't killing me... but this is for repos with fewer than 1000 revs
[04:26] <dmuir> hmm, maybe it's just a caching issue
[04:26] <dmuir> when I make multiple branches, it goes pretty quick
[04:44] <poolie> dmuir: it could be a disk cache thing?
[04:44] <poolie> do you get a progress bar?
[04:45] <dmuir> yeah, with a counter of some sort x/y with x increasing until it reaches y
[04:45] <poolie> and what text?
[04:47] <dmuir> build phase: adding file contents
[04:49] <spiv> Ah, that's possibly related to #607298
[04:49] <spiv> bug 607298
[04:49] <spiv> Which is fixed in the 2.3 branch, but wasn't in 2.2
[04:50] <dmuir> ah, cool
[04:51] <dmuir> something weird though. when I branched bzr.dev, it was immediate, even though I hadn't made a branch in that repo in over a month
[04:57] <dmuir> oh, never mind
[04:57] <dmuir> the branch I had for bzr was a no-trees branch
[04:58] <dmuir> when's 2.3 due?
[04:59] <dmuir> trying to remember what the release cylce was...
[04:59] <dmuir> oh, I think I found it
[04:59] <dmuir> http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/developers/cycle.html
[05:07] <poolie> dmuir: roughly february
[05:07] <dmuir> cool, looking forward to it :-)
[05:46] <lifeless> poolie: spiv: testtools now has some list/load-test functionality, you may be able to delete some more code from bzr
[05:47] <poolie> great
[06:01] <mkanat> poolie: Hey.
[06:55] <dmuir> eol rules are still only global right?
[06:57] <dmuir> I've got a situation where when I make changes to a file checked out from an svn repo, the whole file gets marked as modified, even though I've only changed one line. I'm assuming that an EOL conversion is to blame
[06:58] <dmuir> does bazaar apply any automatic conversions or is "exact" the default?
[06:58] <dmuir> spoke too soon. manual says exact is the default
[06:59] <dmuir> so maybe it's my ide that's done the conversion...
[06:59] <fullermd> It's not unheard of for editors to do line ending conversions.  IDE's are probably another step more likely than plain-old-editors.
[07:00] <dmuir> ah, I think I've found the culprit
[07:01] <dmuir> I think it's from doing a conflict resolution with meld
[07:05] <vila> hi all
[07:06] <spm> hey vila!
[07:06] <vila> ha ! New kernel, reboots all over the place incoming
[07:06] <vila> spm: hey !
[07:29] <dmuir> I'm full of questions today.... what's the quickest way to revert files matching a pattern?
[07:31] <dmuir> `bzr revert */_notes` does work
[07:38] <dmuir> d'oh, I mean *doesn't* work
[08:10] <mkanat> dmuir: ls -d1 */_notes | xargs bzr revert   ?
[08:10] <mkanat> dmuir: That's just off the top of my head.
[08:12] <dmuir> mkanat: I'm getting: ls: cannot access */_notes: No such file or directory
[08:12] <mkanat> dmuir: Then you have no such file or directory?
[08:12] <dmuir> ah, good point :-)
[08:13] <mkanat> :-)
[08:13] <dmuir> they're files that have been deleted
[08:13] <mkanat> Ahh. I dunnow, then.
[08:13] <dmuir> I guess I need to use bzr ls
[08:16] <dmuir> wohoo!
[08:16] <dmuir> bzr status | grep _notes | xargs bzr revert
[08:16] <mkanat> Ah, cool. :-)
[08:16] <mkanat> Good idea.
[08:16] <dmuir> thanks for pointing out xargs, didn't know about that one
[08:18] <mkanat> dmuir: Welcome. :-)
[09:12] <Tiriel> Hi!
[09:12] <Tiriel> I'm new to bazaar, and I read on the website that it has some limitations with XML and binary files
[09:12] <Tiriel> How bad is this? because these are mainly the kind of files I'll be working with
[09:13] <mkanat> Tiriel: Where on the website does it say that?
[09:14] <mkanat> Tiriel: The only limitations that I can think of are that working with enormous binary files can be slow and use a lot of RAM.
[09:14] <Tiriel> well, let me check
[09:14] <Tiriel> I'm pretty sure I just read it, but I can't remember where
[09:16] <Tiriel> Ah! here http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/TheBigPicture
[09:16] <Tiriel> " It is less effective with tree-structured data (e.g. XML), and is most limited in dealing with opaque binary files (e.g. Microsoft Word documents)."
[09:19] <spiv> Tiriel: well, the builtin merge is designed to work well with text files
[09:19] <spiv> Tiriel: that's what that's referring to
[09:20] <spiv> Tiriel: e.g. if you use "bzr merge" and the two branches have both changed the same MS Word document, bzr will only be able to say "there are conflicting changes, here are the different versions of the file, it's up to you to resolve that"
[09:21] <Tiriel> Oh! is that it?, I don't think that will be much of a problem then
[09:21] <Tiriel> see, the plan is to do some translation work, so I don't think there will be a lot of merging
[09:22] <spiv> (and bzr allows plugins to extend its merge capabilities, so if you have tools that can help with automatic merging you can quite likely hook them into bzr with a plugin)
[09:22] <Tiriel> that's also good to know
[09:23] <Tiriel> I was fearing this issue would be a major stopper
[09:24] <peitschie_> Tiriel: sorry to butt in (i only just joined)... are you wondering about bzr merge capabilities on xml docs?
[09:25] <Tiriel> Well, it boiled down to it, I was asking about the broader limitations of bzr when dealing with XML and binaries
[09:25] <Tiriel> all insight is appreciated
[09:26] <peitschie_> sounds good :)
[09:26] <peitschie_> just wanted to chip in that most xml merges I've done seem to be going well
[09:26] <spiv> Tiriel: I suggest just trying it out: it's very quick and easy to make a branch of some files, commit a few revisions, etc.
[09:26] <Tiriel> Well, I'm on the research stage atm, I haven't deployed anything just yet
[09:28] <Tiriel> I'm trying to figure out which tool suits best, and bazaar looks very good, but I was concerned about this since XML will take most of the work
[09:28] <peitschie_> tiriel: r u expecting to do merging on the binaries at all?
[09:28] <Tiriel> not really
[09:28] <Tiriel> in fact I'm not expecting to do much merging at all
[09:28] <Tiriel> but you never know...
[09:29] <peitschie_> tiriel: cool.  with the xml things, does everyone use a tool when editing it btw?  i.e., the format will b consistent across edits?
[09:29] <Tiriel> yes, I plan to stablish a standard slang
[09:30] <Tiriel> as I said this is all in the planning stage, nothing is sure just yet
[09:30] <peitschie_> tiriel: that will serve well :).  As I mentioned earlier, we've been running an 18month old project on bzr (migrated onto bzr about 8months ago) and so far have found xml merging quite nice... once we established everyone using tabs!
[09:31] <Tiriel> nice, that leaves me at ease.
[09:32] <Tiriel> On a totally different matter, is it possible to have some HTML code or something to pull the latest version of a file in bazaar and display it on a webpage
[09:32] <Tiriel> I don't really need the details, I just want to know if it's possible
[09:32] <peitschie_> bzr upload plugin?
[09:32] <mkanat> Tiriel: Depending on what you need, you could just use loggerhead.
[09:32] <peitschie_> that is helpful to push via ftp or similar
[09:34] <Tiriel> I really don't know what I need right now :(
[09:35] <Tiriel> I was thinking that I may want a website where the contents are grabbed from whatever is in bazaar
[09:35] <Tiriel> i.e. looking for the files in bazaar instead of /htdocs or whatever
[09:36] <Tiriel> maybe it is as easy as serving bazaar through apache and have the website look in there?
[09:37] <peitschie_> i'd b looking t bzr upload + cron job 4 that personally :)
[09:38] <Tiriel> as in pushing the head of bazaar's repo to the website with cron?
[09:38] <peitschie_> yup
[09:39] <Tiriel> Why would pushing from bazaar be better than pulling from the website?
[09:40] <Tiriel> not saying that pulling is better, just trying to understand your approach
[09:41] <peitschie_> brb :)
[09:46] <mkanat> Tiriel: Pushing wouldn't require a lot of work from bzr on every web hit.
[09:46] <mkanat> Tiriel: If you're talking about grabbing a file from a repo on every hit, that is.
[09:46] <Tiriel> Very good point, I hadn't thought of that
[09:47] <Tiriel> Also, by pushing we can control wich versions get published on the site!
[09:50] <Tiriel> and it is less coupled. WTF was I thinking!
[09:53] <Tiriel> Ok, I'm going to get some fresh air and settle the ideas, thanks to all
[10:04] <peitschie_> tiriel: pretty much my reasons match mkanat... less work to push it every once in a while than pull every web hit
[10:07] <Tiriel> yup, pushing does look like a much better idea, I hadn't thought it through
[10:27] <mkanat> Heyyy folks. :-) I need a review for this loggerhead merge: https://code.launchpad.net/~mkanat/loggerhead/view-default/+merge/42222
[10:30] <vila> maxb: qbzr and bzr-explorer needs to be upgraded in bzr/proposed right ?
[10:37] <maxb> ideally, yes
[10:38] <maxb> mkanat: Hi. The NEWS file on loggerhead trunk is incorrect, the top entry is under th 1.18 heading, but it actually only happened on trunk
[10:39] <mkanat> maxb: Oh yeah? Lemme go look.
[10:40] <mkanat> maxb: Ohhhh, you're right.
[10:41] <mkanat> maxb: Fix Committed.
[10:42] <maxb> thanks :-)
[10:43] <mkanat> NEWS also needs some serious updates for dev.
[13:02] <vila> ghaaa, is there a way to explore the ubuntu package branches ?
[13:02] <jml> code.launchpad.net/ubuntu?
[13:03] <vila> bzr info goes into a 'Exception RuntimeError: 'maximum recursion depth exceeded in __subclasscheck__' in <type 'exceptions.RuntimeError'> ignored' dance when tried against a non-existing one :-/
[13:04]  * vila kisses jml
[13:04] <vila> ...almost : https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/qbzr
[13:09] <jml> vila: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qbzr
[13:09] <vila> jml: haaaaa :)
[13:09] <vila> thanks :D
[13:10] <vila> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qbzr/+branches is the one I was after, pfew
[13:10] <vila> makes sense
[13:23] <johnf> Tricky questions around merges. I've been asked to compile some stats on the lines of code changed every day for a code base.
[13:24] <johnf> The metric I've chosen at the moment is just using a diff -c on each commit and pushing that through diffstat
[13:24] <johnf> this tree is semi complex with lots of feature branches etc.
[13:25] <johnf> which diverge and then remerge
[13:25] <johnf> so for standard commits I think this is fine. But what about a commit that is a merge. Am I going to end up double counting changes?
[13:27] <vila> johnf: a commit including a merge will produce a diff against its left parent, so it will summarize all the diffs in the right parent(s) *and* whatever modifications made to resolve the conflicts
[13:29] <vila> it really depends on how you want to interpret the resulting stats and whether you drill down into the merges...
[13:30] <johnf> vila: yeah not the simplest task I've ever been given.
[13:30] <vila> johnf: if you don't use append_revions_only then it becomes even more.... interesting
[13:32] <johnf> At the moment I'm tempted to ignore the merge revisions in my stats and assume that conflict changes were small
[13:34] <vila> one could argue that a merge commit is more work than a regular one though...
[13:35] <johnf> vila: Yeah agree but I don't see any easy way to avoid the double counting
[13:35] <vila> may be you shouldn't avoid it
[13:36] <vila> that's why I said it depends on what you want to interpret, I'm not sure the raw numbers are meaningful, but how they evolve over time may be more meaningful
[13:55] <vila> maxb, jelmer: qbzr and bzr-explorer should be upgraded in debian first or can we update the bzr/proposed ppa directly ?
[13:57] <vila> both debian and the ppas are at qbzr-0.19.2-1 and we want 0.19.3 and for bzr-explorer that's 1.1.0 /1.1.2
[13:59] <jelmer> vila: hi
[13:59] <vila> jelmer: hey :)
[13:59] <jelmer> vila: it'd be nice to upgrade debian first, but it's not necessary
[14:51] <vila> maxb: so, should we start the SRU with bug #659590 or do you still have pending changes regarding running the tests during build (or not) ?
[14:52] <maxb> vila: I have pending changes
[14:52] <maxb> Hmm
[14:52] <maxb> Except
[14:52] <vila> maxb: ok, so we shouldn't copy the package from proposed to stable either right ?
[14:53] <vila> maxb: no pressure, just trying to know where we are
[14:53] <maxb> If we are now decided to *not* run the testsuite on the official buildd, the unresolved discussion between me and jelmer on how to run it does not matter.
[14:53] <maxb> Thus, I should back out the "run testsuite during build" changes from the sru branch
[14:54] <maxb> On the matter of the bzr/proposed package, I regard that as OK to promote
[14:54] <vila> maxb: that's how I read the reply from pitti regarding MRE/SRU: run the tests after installation
[14:54] <maxb> The indecision remains only on the manner of how to run tests during build
[14:54] <vila> maxb: ok, so I just copy the bzr one and qbzr and bzr-explorer will be upgraded later
[14:55] <maxb> works for me
[14:55] <vila> maxb: where is that defined ? (running the tests)
[14:55] <vila> maxb: I've branch'ed all the relevant ones (hopefully)
[14:55] <maxb> On the SRU: We still have an issue that to technically comply with the SRU procedure we need 2.3b4 in natty first. (You aren't supposed to fix things in maverick until you've fixed them in natty)
[14:57] <vila> grrr, I will get this right on day, I willl !
[14:59] <vila> ok, so that's postponed until 2.3b4, I'll add a bug task there...meh how ?
[14:59] <vila> ha, right, the other url
[15:02] <maxb> lp:~maxb/ubuntu/maverick/bzr/sru is now updated to remove the "run tests during build" changes, rendering it a straight merge of the new upstream version only
 maxb, jelmer: qbzr and bzr-explorer should be upgraded in debian first or can we update the bzr/proposed ppa directly ?
[15:02] <maxb> Whoops, missed that
[15:03] <vila> maxb: so this sru branch should now be merged into the maverick package branch and from there in the others ?
[15:03] <maxb> What do you mean by maverick package branch?
[15:03] <vila> lp:ubuntu/maverick/bzr/bzr-ppa
[15:03] <jelmer> vila: it'd be nice to upgrade debian first, but it's not necessary
[15:04] <maxb> vila: There is no need, I have already merged 2.2.2 there.
[15:04] <vila> jelmer: but *how* should I do that ? (If I even can)
[15:05] <maxb> jelmer|vila: Updating Debian first is convenient for those packages without a PPA packaging branch - I have a script (which I really need to publish somewhere) for one-line PPAizing and uploading of the debian.dsc
[15:05]  * vila 's head spins
[15:06] <vila> maxb: so this sru branch will only be needed when we want to create the bzr package in maverick-proposed ?
[15:06] <maxb> It does not help that we are currently having two interleaved conversations :-)
[15:06] <vila> :)
[15:07] <maxb> OK, so my sru branch is where I have been preparing the source that I eventually want uploaded to maverick-proposed
[15:07] <maxb> To further confound matters, it does NOT share ancestry with lp:ubuntu/maverick/bzr
[15:07] <vila> yeah, I'm mixing that with the ppas, hence my confusion
[15:07] <vila> ha, branching it right now
[15:08] <maxb> This is because the Debian packaging branch is sane and manually maintained, and based on bzr.dev, but the "official" ubuntu packaging branches are a parallel import by the automated UDD importer
[15:09] <maxb> So, my recommendation is to ignore the existence of the UDD imported branches for bzr, for now
[15:09] <vila> ...or use them to fix the parallel imports bugs
[15:09]  * vila ducks
[15:13] <jam> morning all
[15:13] <vila> jam: hey !
[15:16] <mgz> hm, stopped snowing again.
[15:18] <jam> vila: can you wait 10s and then say my name again, my audio pings don't seem to be working.
[15:19] <mgz> jam: you got any insight on bug 680935?
[15:19] <jam> well, that worked
[15:19] <vila> jam: say what ?
[15:19] <vila> :D
[15:20] <jam> mgz: my line numbers are slightly off, but that looks to be a line like:
[15:20] <jam>                     self._content = zlib.decompress(z_content)
[15:21] <jam> I don't see how we can use the zlib interface any differently than that.
[15:21] <jam> looking at the faq, it would hint that a buffer is too small or too large.
[15:21] <mgz> yeah, also my thought, would be a python bug.
[15:21] <vila> mgz: hello !
[15:21] <jam> For example, 'z_content' could be empty
[15:21] <jam> or it may decompress to something larger than the default buffer size
[15:21] <mgz> or just corruption of some interesting sort.
[15:22] <vila> maxb: so the parallel import is about .bzrignore and the debian dir but the others ?
[15:22] <jam> mgz: zlib.decompress('') does, indeed, give that error, though.
[15:22] <jam> not that I would specifically understand why we would get '' here
[15:22] <mgz> hey vila!
[15:23] <vila> jam,mgz: lifeless remotely diagnosed a *memory* hardware issue with beuno a couple of.. weeks ago, I'm not sure the message was exactly the same though, may be they remember better than me
[15:24] <jam> vila: IIRC, that was different data corruption, but the data on disk seemed fine. There were 3 bit errors in memory from what poolie said, which would be an indication of how ECC mem would fail to find it.
[15:24] <mgz> we generally get zlib errors from on-disk corruption, but normally not this one.
[15:25] <jam> (ecc can often fix 1, find 2, but would fail >=3)
[15:25] <weigon> if I have a workingdir instance, how can I find out what shared repo it is from ?
[15:25] <weigon> ... using bzrlib
[15:25] <jam> weigon: bzr info? tree.branch.repository?
[15:25] <jam> tree.branch.repository.base ?
[15:27] <mgz> anyway, what would we need to progress on that bug? a copy of the repo?
[15:31] <maxb> vila: Um, no the parallel import is about the entire upstream source being imported as historyless tarballs, not derived from bzr.dev
[15:34] <weigon> jam: yep, thanks
[15:41] <vila> maxb: I don't get it. If I do 'bzr log --show-ids -v -l1 bzr' in both branches (sru and bzr-ppa), I have the same file-ids
[15:41] <maxb> vila: Correct
[15:41] <maxb> Now do it in lp:ubuntu/maverick/bzr and see the difference
[15:42] <vila> parallel import is about having different file-ids for the same paths AIUI
[15:42] <maxb> Yes
[15:42] <vila> oh
[15:44] <vila> ouch
[15:45] <vila> maxb: ok, I won't look at that today then :-/
[15:45] <maxb> vila: Sorry, what?
[15:46] <maxb> AFAIK the next job is making 2.3b4 land in natty
[15:46] <maxb> not anything to do with the branches
[15:46] <vila> maxb: right, I was referring to the parallel import bugs :)
[15:47] <vila> maxb: 2.3b4 is next Thursday
[15:47] <maxb> ok, that's not too bad
[16:44] <abentley> jam, do you still feel you need info on https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/bzr/is_executable/+merge/42197?  Do you want me to make a more conservative change?
[16:56] <RenatoSilva> does the last part of revid (like xirl6fr0zipbof4h) is a unique identifier?
[16:57] <RenatoSilva> I want to add binaries to the branch with namestelling what exact revision they match
[17:02] <maxb> That was quite impatient
[17:02] <vila> :)
[17:48] <jam> abentley: there are a couple of bits. I mostly was hoping to get discussion from others about what is "stable api". But also, I'm not sure whether None isn't more accurate a term for executable on symlinks and directories
[17:48] <jam> from what I can see, WT and RT both return None
[17:48] <jam> and PreviewTree returns what is in the basis tree
[17:48] <jam> MemoryTree is the only one that always returns IE.executable, which defaults to Falso
[17:48] <jam> False
[17:48] <abentley> jam, no, it's only RT according to the per-tree tests I introduced.
[17:49] <jam> abentley: your branch also changed WT
[17:49] <jam> at least, WT_4
[17:49] <abentley> jam, My branch also changed DirStateRevisionTree.
[17:49] <jam> ah
[17:50] <abentley> jam, None is also inconsistent with our other APIs.
[17:50] <jam> right, WT.is_executable returns bool(<is_file> and S_IEXEC)
[17:50] <jam> abentley: the fact that most directories have the X bit set, but are "False" for executable seemed odd to me
[17:51] <abentley> jam, RT._comparison_data says False, not None for RT.
[17:51] <abentley> jam, On directories, that bit means they can be searched.  It doesn't mean that they're executable.
[17:52] <abentley> jam, IMO, directories and symlinks are never, themselves, executable, because they're not files, and you can't execute things that aren't files.
[17:58] <vila> abentley, jam: I'm very tempted to say that if dirs and symlinks are never executable, then executable should not even been *defined* for them, we don't define symlink target for files or directories either. But since that would be far more invasive to get there, I think None is more precise than False to convey "never"
[17:58] <vila> s/been/be/ ?
[18:17] <jam> vila: that was sort of my feeling as well. that said, False does seem a bit more consistent with the current implementations.
[18:17] <jam> the fact that IE.executable is defaulted do False, etc
[18:53] <abentley> vila: I don't see value in having a tri-value where a boolean will do.  There is only one answer to the question "can this be executed"?  And there's no value I can see to a programmer, expecially since None is not clearly distinct from False.
[18:55] <vila> there is a value is using None to mean: this make no sense
[18:55] <vila> using False implies True is valid
[18:57] <abentley> vila: What is the value?  How will this aid my bzrlib programming?  And does the value offset the cost of having to deal with a third potential return value, and the inability to treat the value as a boolean?
[18:57] <vila> I don't see the value in having a boolean where none is needed either, at least 'None' carries this
[18:58] <vila> It helps to see None more than to see False as you could then realize that is_executable shouldn't be defined for a dir or a symlink whereas a newcomer may wonder: 'Wait, it's False, when will it be True ?'
[18:59] <vila> And *that* AIUI is why executability changes were wrongly triggered
[19:00] <abentley> vila: I am saying boolean values are easier for calling code to deal with.  They can be used in conditionals directly.  They can be serialized using standard machinery.
[19:01] <abentley> When were executability changes wrongly triggered?  do you mean in the incremental diffs?
[19:01] <vila> wow, wow, what are you talking about here ? All the code exist to handle this *today* no ?
[19:01] <vila> isn't it what the bug you're fixing about ?
[19:02] <abentley> vila: No, I think a lot of the code that exists today treats it as a boolean, and mostly gets away with it.
[19:03] <abentley> vila: The PreviewTree code treated it as a boolean, and that's the cause of the incremental diff problems.
[19:03] <vila> so all is left to decide is whether None is better than False because we won't un-implement is_executable for dirs and symlinks
[19:04] <vila> then why not teach this code that is_executable can be None ?
[19:05] <abentley> vila: Because a) it's the wrong value b) implementing that decision everywhere would be a lot of code and API changes.
[19:06] <vila> I can understand that it's *easier* to fix it the way you did, but saying that False == None is a bit... different
[19:06] <abentley> vila: who's saying False == None?
[19:06] <vila> you
[19:07] <vila> executable is never defined for dirs/symlinks, you implement it as False
[19:07] <abentley> vila: Most assuredly not.  If I tell you that a directory is executable, is that a true statement or a false statement?
[19:07] <vila> MU :D
[19:08] <abentley> vila: No, it's not MU.  Even if you argue that the state of a directory's executability is undefined, my statement is false.
[19:09] <vila> well, if you agree that your statement is false, then all is well :)
[19:09] <abentley> vila: Indeed, because that means that directories are not executable, and the answer to the question "is this directory executable" is "false".
[19:12] <abentley> vila: It's not a question of "has the executability of this directory been  toggled to the False state", it's a question of "can this directory be executed".
[19:14] <abentley> vila: In any case, I hold that a two-value system is less complicated than a three-value system, and therefore in the absence of clear evidence that a three-value system provides a superior API, I believe we should opt for a two-value system.
[19:19] <vila> ha ! That's more convincing, between a zero values (no implementation for dirs/symlinks), 2 or 3 values, then yes, the 2 values being less expensive than the 0 one, let's do that !
[19:20] <abentley> vila: yay!
[19:55] <sqwishy> In bazaar, is there a nice way to destroy the history of a file without making your branch messed up and incompatible?
[19:56] <dash> sqwishy: first, build a time machine
[19:56] <sqwishy> dash: Do you know which channel I could go to to get help with that?
[19:57] <dash> sqwishy: there was a time traveler convention at MIT, 7 May 2005
[19:57] <dash> sqwishy: you might try there/then
[19:57] <dash> sqwishy: anyway no, you can't change history
[19:57] <dash> (unless you do it the hard way)
[20:05] <jelmer> well, technically bazaar supports having a file without history
[20:05] <jelmer> in other words, the history would still exist.. the repository just would just forget about it
[20:06] <jelmer> (note that this is different from changing history, which is not possible)
[21:00] <poolie> hi all
[21:02] <poolie> hi jam?
[21:06] <jam> hi poolie
[21:09] <poolie> hi there
[21:09] <poolie> vila is just talking to me, then we could talk if you like
[21:10] <jam> vila: go to bed :)
[21:11] <vila> jam: hehe, soon soon
[21:27] <poolie> vila, so shall we do 2.3b4 this week?
[21:28] <vila> given that we need to do that to comply with the SRU policy that will allow us to release 2.2.2 into maverick-proposed, yes :D
[21:30] <vila> also, 'rmadison bzr' says that natty only got 2.3b2 so there is something to be done there too
[21:30] <poolie> work out where it's stalling
[21:32] <vila> jam: by the way, did you see bug #683307, I wonder if there is an lp bug there (I haven't checked but it's weird to have another mx recursion depth )
[21:33] <jam> vila: that is stacking-on-self-causes infinite recursion
[21:33] <poolie> i thought so
[21:33] <jam> I've seen 3 of those in the last couple of days, not sure why
[21:34] <vila> jam: that's my point, especially since for the previous two ones you found an almost empty branch.conf on lp
[21:34] <vila> jam: if the third has the same file...
[21:34] <jam> vila: there isn't really a reason to have anything else there.
[21:34] <jam> I don't know if people are renaming
[21:34] <jam> or creating the dev focus first
[21:35] <jam> or we have a regression with the "don't stack on self if self is the default target"
[21:35] <poolie> that's possible
[21:35] <poolie> we should trap this and give a sensible warning
[21:37] <vila> poolie: regarding bug #583667, I think we're not on the same page, I mentioned BZR_LP_XMLRPC_URL only for xmlrpc usages,
[21:37] <vila> I should clarify that it doesn't apply to launchpadlib for which there is no env var
[21:38] <vila> poolie: would this address your concerns ?
[21:38] <poolie> if setting that variable will fix older clients (including older lplib) then that's fine
[21:38] <poolie> hm, scratch that
[21:39] <poolie> i think putting this in the bzr news is the wrong place
[21:39] <poolie> perhaps we should put a post on blog.l.n, or append to that post
[21:39] <jam> vila: interesting, tart-sleepymate is correct, but the branch it is stacked on is broken
[21:39] <jam> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sleepynate/tart/tart-sleepynate/.bzr/branch/branch.conf
[21:39] <jam> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~andreesie/tart/vanilla/.bzr/branch/branch.conf
[21:40] <poolie> saying, for bzr, you need to either upgrade to 2.0.8, 2.1.x, etc
[21:40] <jam> vila: I wonder if the +branch/ change to bzr+ssh is confusing us
[21:40] <poolie> or, set BZR_LP_XMLRPC_URL
[21:40] <jam> so that we see the stacking location as +branch/tart at one point, but end up setting it to ~/andreesie/tart/vanilla at another point
[21:40] <poolie> and we need to check whether setting that will fix all interactions with lp, or only lp: urls
[21:40] <jam> thumper: ^^ some questions about your changes to the lp: resolution stuff
[21:40] <poolie> lifeless: ^^
[21:41] <lifeless> hmm?
[21:41] <jam> lifeless: I think poolie is pointing you to the BZR_LP_XMLRPC_URL stuff
[21:41] <lifeless> whats that for?
[21:42] <lifeless> users have no use case for controlling the end point; only launchpad developers testing new XMLRPC releases need to do that.
[21:42] <poolie> lifeless: vila's proposal had a description of how to reconfigure old bzr releases assuming you won't or can't upgrade
[21:43] <poolie> even to a bugfix release from the same series
[21:43] <poolie> which is a bit of an edge case
[21:43] <lifeless> we're not going to remove edge until it has no users
[21:43] <lifeless> the goal is to drive the userbase to zero as quickly as possible.
[21:43] <poolie> right
[21:43] <vila> poolie: right, either they upgrade and they don't care or they don't and they can't read the NEWS
[21:43] <lifeless> s/no/very very few/
[21:43] <poolie> vila, that's my point
[21:44] <vila> poolie: re-phrasing to make sure I got it ;)
[21:44] <poolie> if there are folks who won't upgrade, we'll keep supporting them until their hardware dies or whatever
[21:44] <vila> who's 'we' here ?
[21:44] <vila> edge.lp.net
[21:45] <poolie> yes
[21:45] <poolie> we=Robert :)
[21:45] <vila> if edge disappears they'll come to us (bzr), we say them: upgrade, they say: we can't, we say: try BZR_LP_XMLRPC_URL, they say: doesn't work, we: upgrade, you're dooned
[21:45] <vila> doomed
[21:46] <vila> So there is still a slight chance that they try to read the NEWS for the bzr they can't upgrade to and find the the warning there
[21:47] <vila> which was my original intent when putting it there
[21:47] <vila> but that's not satisfying
[21:47] <AdamDV> How can I see the previous versions of a file from the CLI?
[21:48] <poolie> AdamDV: `bzr cat -r -1 FILE`, etc
[21:48] <vila> bzr cat <file> -r-1
[21:48] <AdamDV> alright
[21:50] <vila> poolie: shouldn't we just wait for lplib and lp.net to come up with a solution ? That's where people will fail after all
[21:51] <poolie> vila, let's just not document what people using older clients should do in the news file
[21:51] <vila> wfm
[21:51] <poolie> if lp isn't going to pull the plug it's not urgent
[21:51] <poolie> jam, so how are things with you?
[21:55] <jam> poolie: moving along pretty well here.
[21:56] <spiv> jam: good morning
[21:56] <jam> one very odd thing I just discovered. peak memory during "bzr pack" if you already have an optimal pack is much higher than peak memory when you don't. I wonder if we are reading in the entire old pack file to compute the md5sum...
[21:56] <jam> hi spiv
[21:56] <jam> spiv: I wanted to ask you about https://code.launchpad.net/~spiv/bzr/fetch-spec-everything-not-in-other/+merge/42078
[21:57] <spiv> jam: Today I'm planning to work on the hpss request you suggested in your shallow branching mail.
[21:57] <jam> it says you changed the description, but it doesn't show a delta
[21:57] <jam> I was wondering what the different was
[21:57] <spiv> I typoed the bug number
[21:57] <jam> bbiab, my son is asking for me
[21:57] <spiv> So, nothing significant :)
[21:58] <poolie> hi there spiv
[22:40] <CardinalFang> Hi.  Is anyone else running Natty right now?  I'd like an independent test of something.
[22:43] <CardinalFang> Namely, I want to know if there's a problem with plugin "bzr-builddeb".
[22:44] <CardinalFang> $ bzr branch lp:debian/python-couchdb 0.8-0u1; cd 0.8-0u1; bzr import-upstream 0.8 http://pypi.python.org/packages/source/C/CouchDB/CouchDB-0.8.tar.gz
[22:49] <CardinalFang> At crash location, there's a comment mentioning spiv's tags-copied-but-no-revisions bug, but I think it's not related.
[22:50] <maxb> CardinalFang: Not running natty. Will maverick + tip of bzr-builddeb do?
[22:51] <spiv> CardinalFang: pastebin the crash maybe?
[22:51] <CardinalFang> maxb, I don't know.  If you get AttributeError ^, you'd know.
[22:52] <CardinalFang> spiv, I shouldn't have woken you.  I've decided your bug isn't related at all.
[22:52] <spiv> CardinalFang: also, see if "bzr tags" in that branch reports ? rather than revnos
[22:52] <spiv> (in the local branch)
[22:52] <maxb> bzr: ERROR: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: u'http://pypi.python.org/packages/source/C/CouchDB/CouchDB-0.8.tar.gz'
[22:52] <maxb> for me
[22:53] <spiv> CardinalFang: well, even if it isn't that bug, seeing the traceback will help us figure out what the bug is :)
[22:53] <maxb> CardinalFang: No AttributeError here when I download the file locally. However, this sounds vaguely like a bug recently fixed in trunk
[22:54] <CardinalFang> stack trace:  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/538464/
[22:54] <CardinalFang> spiv, all tags have revnos.
[22:54] <spiv> Ok, that rules out the tag bug.
[22:55] <CardinalFang> bzr = 2.3.0~beta2-1;  brz-builddeb = 2.6ubuntu1
[22:56] <spiv> CardinalFang: I'm guessing it's because bzr-builddeb is looking for an upstream branch, but doesn't know of one...
[22:58] <spiv> It's worth filing a bug on bzr-builddeb, I think.
[22:58] <maxb> No, it's fixed in trunk r485
[22:58] <spiv> maxb: ah!
[22:58] <spiv> maxb: heh, my local copy of trunk was at 484 :)
[22:58]  * CardinalFang looks for bzr nightlies.
[22:59] <maxb> bzr branch lp:bzr-builddeb :-)
[22:59] <spiv> There's also https://launchpad.net/~bzr-nightly-ppa/+archive
[23:00] <spiv> Oh, actually, that's not the PPA I was thinking of..
[23:00] <spiv> https://launchpad.net/~jelmer/+archive/bzr-dailies is the one I was thinking of.
[23:01] <CardinalFang> Rock.
[23:06] <maxb> no, that's obsolete too
[23:06] <maxb> You want https://launchpad.net/~bzr/+archive/daily
[23:07] <maxb> (spiv, CardinalFang)
[23:09] <spiv> maxb: heh
[23:10] <CardinalFang> maxb, spiv, thank you very much.  I owe you a beer.
[23:10] <spiv> maxb: Hmm, I guess the link to bzr-nightly-ppa on https://launchpad.net/bzr should be replaced with that, then?
[23:10] <peitschie> mornin all :)
[23:10] <poolie> hi there
[23:12] <abentley> poolie: I discussed the branch with jam, but things got derailed into a discussion over what the philosophically-correct return value is when calling is_executable on a directory.
[23:13] <poolie> oh, ok
[23:13] <poolie> False vs None vs error?
[23:13] <abentley> poolie: False vs None.
[23:15] <abentley> poolie: I think False is correct, but I think consistency is the most important consideration.
[23:16] <abentley> poolie: And False is also consistent with other Tree types and other RevisionTree APIs.  Changing it all to None would be a big change.
[23:16] <maxb> spiv: Based on the utter deadness of where it currently points, I've just gone ahead and updated it right now
[23:17] <james_w> thanks maxb
[23:18] <spiv> maxb: thanks :)
[23:20] <poolie> abentley: so is it stuck? would you like another review?
[23:21] <abentley> poolie: So landing in 2.2 is stuck.  Another review would be helpful.
[23:21] <abentley> poolie: https://code.launchpad.net/~abentley/bzr/is_executable/+merge/42197
[23:22] <poolie> that one, or the one that supersedes it?
[23:22] <abentley> poolie: That one.  The one that supsersedes it is for trunk.
[23:23] <poolie> thanks for the incremental diffs btw
[23:23] <abentley> poolie: You're welcome.
[23:25] <jelmer> hi James, Poolie, Spiv, Aaron, Max
[23:25] <jelmer> spiv: My daily builds are mostly living under ~bzr now
[23:25] <jelmer> nevermind, I see Max already mentioned that
[23:26] <poolie> :)
[23:26] <james_w> hi jelmer
[23:27] <abentley> jelmer: Hi.
[23:29] <poolie> abentley: what was the old behaviour?
[23:29] <poolie> oh, None?
[23:29] <abentley> poolie: yes.
[23:29] <poolie> fairly obviously
[23:35] <mkanat> Hey hey. Anybody available to do a review on a loggerhead merge proposal?
[23:36] <mkanat> https://code.launchpad.net/~mkanat/loggerhead/view-default/+merge/42222
[23:36] <mkanat> thumper: Would you be the person to talk to about that, now? :-)
[23:45] <maxb> jelmer: Hi, a question. Why are the bzr daily recipes using version numbers like 1.4.0~bzr{revno}~ppa{revno:packaging}+{revno:debian} ? The ordering of {revno:packaging} and {revno:debian} is inverted to what feels natural to me?
[23:45] <poolie> hi mkanat
[23:46] <mkanat> Hey poolie! :-)
[23:46] <poolie> maxb: i agree
[23:46] <poolie> abentley: i replied; on the whole it seems like a good change but some testing wbn
[23:46] <poolie> perhaps we should do that within hudson
[23:46] <poolie> or just manually
[23:49] <abentley> poolie: What kind of testing do you have in mind?
[23:50] <thumper> mkanat: hmm
[23:50] <thumper> mkanat: I'm not entirely sure
[23:51] <thumper> mkanat: poke poolie :)
[23:51] <mkanat> thumper: Hahaha, okay. :-)
[23:52] <mkanat> poolie: So, any thoughts on who can do my loggerhead review there?
[23:52] <mkanat> poolie: Or do you just want me to check it in w/o review? (Not sure how comfortable I am about that, although I have tested it.)
[23:52] <poolie> i probably could
[23:53] <abentley> poolie: In the cover letter I said "This branch fixes RevisionTree.is_executable to treat directories and symlinks the same way as other Tree implementations-- to return False rather than None."  Was that not a clear enough statement?
[23:53] <poolie> sorry, you did
[23:54] <poolie> perhaps it is worth mentioning in news though
[23:54] <poolie> is this going to systematically change what's returned by iter_changes in non-test cases?
[23:55] <poolie> mkanat: shall we discuss it in #launchpad-dev?
[23:55] <mkanat> poolie: Sure, I'm there now.
[23:57] <abentley> poolie: I believe only PreviewTree, because only PreviewTree can use RevisionTree.is_executable in its  it only changes iter_changes when it involves PreviewTree, because only PreviewTree uses is_executable to implement Tree._comparison_data.
[23:58] <abentley> poolie: I believe only PreviewTree, because only PreviewTree can use RevisionTree.is_executable in its _comparison_data implementation.
[23:58] <abentley> So only iter_changes on PreviewTrees should be affected.
[23:59] <poolie> so i'd comfortably +1 it now if you could run the tests of the relevant plugins
[23:59] <poolie> that might be a bit annoying if the test suites are not obviously clean to start with though


[00:13] <skaet> yup,  final iso is likely out.
[00:14] <skaet> Help testing at this point so Xubuntu images can ship, would be appreciated.
[00:14] <skaet> Candidate images are: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/240/builds
[00:15] <skaet> knome, micahg, ^
[07:19] <knome> skaet, cheers
[07:22] <knome> skaet, again, when's the expected deadline?
[07:36] <olbi> hello
[07:36] <olbi> when will be released Xubuntu 12.10?
[07:36] <knome> today
[07:36] <olbi> today or another day?
[07:36] <olbi> :D
[07:37] <olbi> ok, so I will be w8ing and write some news :]
[07:55] <pleia2> happy 12.10 release day :)
[07:55] <Unit193> pleia2!
[07:56] <knome> pleia2, ooh
[07:56] <knome> pleia2, how's the ghana internet?
[07:56] <pleia2> knome: horrible
[07:56] <knome> hehe
[07:56] <pleia2> mostly they use mobile, the hotel has dsl
[07:56] <knome> pleia2, heh, is that any better?
[07:57] <pleia2> not when everyone is on it :D
[07:57] <knome> i see
[07:57] <pleia2> anyway, breakfast time for me
[07:57] <knome> ok, bon appetit
[09:09] <olbi> something new was added from Beta 2 and changes from site?
[10:25] <skaet> knome,  has someone tested the upgrade xubuntu amd64?    I'm not seeing it marked on the iso tracker
[10:26] <knome> skaet, no, it's not tested
[10:27] <skaet> knome,  can someone test it in the next couple of hours please so we know we've got all the manditory Xubuntu ones done?
[10:27] <knome> i'll do that
[10:27] <skaet> thanks knome!  :)
[10:27] <knome> just trying to make paying customers happy too
[10:27] <knome> "can you now send the material to the press? the deadline was 2 hours ago"
[10:27] <Unit193> Couldn't even do that if I had the time.
[10:46] <knome> installing 12.04 for upgrade testing
[10:47]  * smartboyhw too for Studio....
[10:47] <smartboyhw> Upgrade testcases are sometimes really distressing when it comes to release times...
[10:51] <Unit193> I didn't do it for the testing, and didn't really think to add it that much.
[10:56] <skaet> Unit193,  feel free to start the discussion up about which tests actually need to be done and are meaningful in the Xubuntu context.    If something isn't likely to find problems that the users need to know about,  then we probably shouldn't be making it manditory ;)
[10:56] <knome> upgrading 12.04
[10:57] <smartboyhw> knome, you are faster than me I am just downloading the 12.04.1 image eh...
[10:57] <knome> yeah, agreed with skaet. for R, we should definitely review the tests (again), now that the new infrastructure is in place
[11:05] <knome> rebooting precise to do the actual upgrade
[14:58] <knome> hey jjfrv8 and thanks again for the hard work for 12.10 :)
[15:17] <jjfrv8> knome, My pleasure. It was interesting. I think the final product looks great. And congratulations on release day!
[15:18] <knome> thanks! :)
[15:40] <bluesabre_> WebUpd8 did a pretty good xubuntu demo video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IzkJ-zaa1bc
[15:51] <ochosi> yeah, saw that too today
[15:57] <knome> bluesabre_, that looks good
[15:57] <knome> liking how the wallpaper and stuff turned out
[15:58] <ochosi> yeah, works nicely with the revamped greybird
[16:14] <bluesabre_> yeah, his video is good enough that I don't think I'll need to make my own demo video when I get around to writing a new review
[16:16] <mr_pouit> he didn't show the awesomeness of catfish, so you'll have to do you own video :P
[16:16] <mr_pouit> *your
[16:18] <bluesabre_> that's true
[16:18] <bluesabre_> gotta advertise all my hard work (and questionable-quality code)!
[16:20] <genii-around> Is there some documentation somewhere that I could read which explains why wubi was dropped from xubuntu? I don't care much for wubi but i'm interested in why
[16:27] <mr_pouit> nobody cared I guess, and it increases the amount of testing required
[16:28] <knome> genii-around, no manpower / machines to test, and wubi kind of only brought us problems
[16:28] <genii-around> knome: Ah, OK. I was wondering if it was some technical issue or more a philosophical one.
[16:29] <knome> genii-around, not much a philosophical one, yeah :)
[16:29] <knome> we have the live cd's for testing, who needs wubi :)
[16:30] <genii-around> I'd actually be good if wubi disappeared altogether for all *buntu
[16:30] <knome> i agree, but i'm not the one to make the call :)
[16:35] <babaei> what?
[16:35] <babaei> wubi is fantastic.
[16:36] <bluesabre_> I thought they did get rid of wubi on the other *buntu
[17:17] <knome> congratulations and thanks everybody! xubuntu 12.10 is now out!
[17:18] <smartboyhw> knome, yay!
[17:19] <SkippersBoss> have we noticed the nice bug from our freind on ubuntu ?
[17:19] <smartboyhw> SkippersBoss, oh?
[17:19] <SkippersBoss> https://help.ubuntu.com/
[17:19] <knome> heh :)
[17:19] <SkippersBoss> they ve got 2110 out 2day :-)
[17:21] <SkippersBoss> thing is. they still haven't mnaged to correct this obvious error
[17:21] <smartboyhw> heh
[17:21] <smartboyhw> SkippersBoss, they are on it now
[17:42] <skaet> knome, and rest of xubuntu team,  congratulations on getting 12.10 out.
[17:42] <skaet> :)
[17:43] <knome> thanks!
[17:43] <knome> it was a lot of work... but it will be a lot of work with 13.04 too :D
[17:44] <SkippersBoss> we ll be here to assist
[17:46] <knome> yeah, that's appreciated
[18:00] <genii-around> Both d/l links seem 404
[18:00] <knome> fixed.
[18:03] <micahg> mr_pouit: is there anything specific that you'd like me not to do when R opens?
[18:06] <knome> micahg, slack off
[18:06] <knome> [:
[18:06] <bluesabre_> :d
[18:06] <knome> countdown banners should say it's out soon...
[18:07] <knome> to be exact, looks like they say that now


[00:34] <joe_shading> Nice picture of a cloud on http://imgur.com/dZuRoHl off http://popey.com/webcam/
[00:40] <Azelphur> hehe
[00:40] <Azelphur> seems like a lonely cloud.
[00:56] <Azelphur> for some evening entertainment, I saw this today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5evOrmc0WWo
[01:13] <joe_shading> #cumulusfractus
[06:51] <MooDoo> morning all
[06:57] <knightwise> morning
[06:59] <AlanBell> morning all
[07:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> morning
[07:04] <dwatkins> oioi
[07:40] <ztuiop> hello there
[07:40] <ztuiop> anyone here ?
[07:42] <AlanBell> ztuiop: loads of people
[07:44] <ztuiop> well, i would like to know, each time i m talking on skype with someone, the call drops
[07:44] <ztuiop> if i send a mail the mail not receive at time
[07:44] <popey> morning
[07:44] <ztuiop> lot of problem on my network
[07:45] <popey> ztuiop: is it a laptop with wireless?
[07:45] <ztuiop> so decide to turn off the WIFI
[07:45] <ztuiop> now i m only using wired connexion
[07:46] <ztuiop> but i still got the problem
[07:46] <ztuiop> now i would to identify the person who doing this ?
[07:46] <ztuiop> what is the method to do ?
[07:55] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[07:55] <MartijnVdS> \o bigcalm
[07:56] <popey> ztuiop: I'd use tools like iftop and mtr to check my network
[07:59] <ztuiop> what you can with these tool ?
[07:59] <ztuiop> see
[08:01] <MartijnVdS> popey: that only works for the local network though. If his modem is being DoSsed, it's harder to see what's going on
[08:04] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[08:05] <diplo> Morning all
[08:05] <MartijnVdS> \o diplo
[08:05] <popey> MartijnVdS: sure, but it helps
[08:06] <MartijnVdS> popey: it can help, yes
[08:06] <MartijnVdS> popey: it can prove what's NOT happening :)
[08:06] <brobostigon> morning MartijnVdS and diplo and popey
[08:07] <BigRedS> Gooooooood Morning!
[08:07] <BigRedS> apparently
[08:08] <MartijnVdS> Well, the sun is out here in Amsterdam
[08:08] <BigRedS> yeah, we've got that issue in London, too
[08:08] <MartijnVdS> sister cities 8-)
[08:09] <shauno> I've got cloud cover!  at last!  lovely, lovely cloud cover
[08:09] <MartijnVdS> shauno: Finally! Clouds to store our data in!
[08:09] <BigRedS> haha
[08:12] <shauno> MartijnVdS: reminds me of this one from a couple of years ago.  sadly turned out to be a hoax :(  http://halfblog.net/2011/11/29/the-telegraph-thought-councillor-thought-cloud-computing-depended-on-rainy-weather/
[08:16] <shauno> although just to make it funnier, it's kinda coming true anyway: http://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/item/32190-hp-to-build-87-000-sq-foot
[08:16] <shauno> so we really do have clouds :)
[08:19] <BigRedS> Ireland does seem to be doing well for computing
[08:19] <BigRedS> it's as if all these US companies can *just* make it as far as Ireland when they're wanting a foothold in Europe
[08:22] <mungbean> tax innit
[08:22] <directhex> ireland offers competitive tax breaks
[08:22] <directhex> as does canada, hence so many tech companies around mtl
[08:22] <MartijnVdS> yeah, they also set up Dutch subsidiaries to move money around to avoid tax
[08:23] <directhex> there are few major companies which play fair on tax
[08:23] <AlanBell> all down to the the Dutch sandwich and double Irish legal tax scams for big companies
[08:24] <directhex> e.g. costa pays taxes, starbucks doesn't
[08:26] <SuperMatt> while I think it's clever how starbucks gets around tax, I wish they would diaf
[08:26] <zertyui> hello anyone there ?
[08:27] <mungbean> just all of us
[08:27] <SuperMatt> just not if you can hear me
[08:27] <SuperMatt> is there anyone home?
[08:27] <zertyui> is it pôssible to create a user with temporary access ?
[08:28] <mungbean> ubuntu has a guest account built in
[08:28] <mungbean> trashes the home dir after you log out
[08:28] <directhex> or Holiday Inn pays 2% tax, Premier Inn pays 36%
[08:28] <zertyui> means is it possible to create a root user with timestamps access ?
[08:28] <directhex> on last year's financials anyway
[08:28] <mungbean> directhex: bit of a disparity there
[08:28] <zertyui> #ubuntu-server
[08:28] <mungbean> is there a website that helps you ethically choose your company to spend on?
[08:30] <directhex> mungbean, no single-hit site. i use duedil.com to look up companies & compare pre-tax/post-tax profits on companies
[08:31] <mungbean> rather than wasting energies on hating the rich, there should be a bit more to help people make good decisions, e.g. phone apps
[08:31] <mungbean> and a bit of solidarity
[08:31] <mungbean> but starbucks is still full every time i go past their overpriced establishments
[08:32] <JamesTait> Good morning all, happy Get Out of the Dog House Day! :-D
[08:32] <christel> JamesTait: you will never get out of the dog house darling...
[08:32] <christel> <3
[08:32] <christel> (morning all)
[08:32] <bigcalm> Good morning christel :)
[08:32] <JamesTait> christel, aww, :(
[08:32] <directhex> mungbean, a *lot* of people believe that if a tax dodge is legal, then you shouldn't in any way express disapproval of the company using it e.g. by buying elsewhere
[08:33] <directhex> saying "buy costa not starbucks because taxes" is a quick way to start a forum argument
[08:33] <christel> hiya bigcalm :)
[08:35] <directhex> costa's tax bill is high enough to pay for 2 large secondary schools with staff, facilities, etc. that's the kind of tangible measure for people - if starbucks paid taxes, that'd pay for 4000 pupils' education
[08:35] <shauno> tax breaks are odd.  I think most of us only dislike them because they don't work for us.  if I had the choice to pay half the income tax I do, you can bet I'd leap at it
[08:35] <directhex> shauno, tax breaks are part of a race to the bottom, which is dangerous, but sitting them out is harmful
[08:36] <directhex> there's a reason why the uk games industry is in the toilet and the canadian game industry is ascendant - companies set up studios there due to heavy tax breaks
[08:36] <directhex> tl;dr: everyone loses and we're all going to turn into somalia
[08:36] <shauno> and then stick their european arm here because we won't spoil that for them
[08:40] <shauno> it's a popular gripe, but I'm seeing it from the opposite side.  I work at the european HQ of an american company.  except we were bought out by a french company a few years back, so we now have a very uncertain future
[08:40] <shauno> they lose the tax break, we lose jobs
[08:53] <mungbean> directhex: thats strange. any company dodging tax means we all pay more in the long run
[08:53] <mungbean> not really much to discuss :D
[08:53] <directhex> mungbean, "we all" doesn't matter. only shareholders matter
[08:54] <directhex> and shareholders aren't using public services anyway - private jet, private schools
[08:55] <shauno> or more to the point; the shareholders aren't in the UK, what do they care?
[08:55] <mungbean> you are probably a shareholder of most of these companies indirectly by virtue of your pension
[08:57] <mungbean> forgetting to bring your phone to work..feel lost :(
[08:57] <neuro> instead of punishing or vilifying the companies who are only acting in the best interests of their employees, customers and (if applicable) shareholders, by maximising profits through legal means so that they remain a going concern, why not try and punish/vilify the politicians/legislators who put the tax loopholes in there in the first place?
[08:58] <MartijnVdS> neuro++
[08:58] <BigRedS> If you don't want to be surprised by your tax income you really should have a simple tax system
[08:58] <mungbean> " who are only acting in the best interests of their employees,"
[08:58] <MartijnVdS> or no income
[08:58] <mungbean> non-profits seem to do OK
[08:58] <BigRedS> I'm not sure we're *that* bad yet :)
[09:06] <MooDoo> pwd
[09:06] <mungbean> /home/moodoo
[09:14] <SuperMatt> /home/matthew
[09:14] <SuperMatt> boo :(
[09:15] <MartijnVdS> moo?
[09:15] <SuperMatt> I was hoping I was running from something fun like /home/matthew/Videos/.porn
[09:15] <neuro> /storage/l5r881/d4/p1/cryp/neuro
[09:15] <directhex> /data/Media/Videos/Adult
[09:15] <directhex> why hide behind dot files?
[09:16] <MartijnVdS> directhex: maybe his employer doesn't like adult-themed content?
[09:16] <directhex> weirdos
[09:16] <neuro> why would you download/store/view adult material at a workplace?
[09:17] <mungbean> i should ask the legal guy i saw downloading the most bizarre stuff once
[09:17] <mungbean> while i was tailing the squid logs
[09:17] <MartijnVdS> neuro: well there's this company I used to share an office with.. who checked their clients' websites
[09:17] <mungbean> he was sitting yards away
[09:17] <neuro> ha
[09:17] <neuro> i had almost exactly the same thing happen
[09:17] <MartijnVdS> neuro: they processed credit cards for, among other things, adult sites :)
[09:17] <neuro> happened to check squid logs
[09:17] <neuro> noticed "dodgy" thing happening
[09:18] <directhex> one of the test sites for Moonlight was a "playboy 100 year history" site implemented in silverlight
[09:18] <neuro> and i'd implemented an staticly-assigned-IP-to-user mapping system
[09:18] <neuro> so knew immediately who it was
[09:18] <mungbean> i won't even repeat what i saw
[09:18] <neuro> phoned the guy up at his desk on the other side of the building
[09:18] <neuro> "um, mate, give the porn a chuck"
[09:18] <neuro> "wh whaa eh no wha no eh?"
[09:18] <mungbean> the guy was going through the process of trying to adopt a child too :-\
[09:18] <MartijnVdS> neuro: "U wot m8"
[09:19] <neuro> he did cop to it and apologised profusely
[09:19] <neuro> i think he was bricking it i was going to dob him in to his manager
[09:20] <neuro> i told him, look, as far as i'm concerned, you've been a t*t, just don't do it again
[09:20] <directhex> i reckon i could take our IT manager in a fight, so i don't fear that jackass
[09:20] <neuro> tho at $that_employer{client}, i was there when a senior manager was taken into custody
[09:20] <neuro> for kiddie stuff on his work computer
[09:20] <neuro> *shiver*
[09:21] <neuro> could have been worse, i might have actually been tasked to sort the guy's computer out
[09:21] <neuro> didn't envy that person their job
[09:23] <shauno> detol+magnets :/
[09:24] <mungbean> eye bleach
[09:25] <popey> friend of mine runs a computer repair company, plod came round and handed him a cd, said he is obliged to boot every machine that comes in with that cd. it reports a number from 1-10. if it's above 7, call cops
[09:25] <popey> it doesn't detail what it finds, just that it's found "stuff".
[09:26] <popey> It boots linux or freedos iirc, and runs a scanner which looks for known "bad stuff"
[09:26] <mungbean> script or binaries?
[09:26] <popey> the cops alluded to it being kiddie stuff it looks for
[09:26] <mungbean> "he is obliged"
[09:26] <popey> he's not allowed to tell customers that he runs that on their pc's
[09:26] <popey> yeah ⍨
[09:27] <mungbean> did you read the story about people getting their phone data harvested at teh uk border?
[09:27] <mungbean> by the authorities
[09:27] <popey> the trans-atlantic tap?
[09:27] <SuperMatt> I think that obligation sounds quite dubious
[09:28] <directhex> so much for flying cars, we ended up with neuromancer instead
[09:28] <mungbean> i would probably run teh CD tbh as a model citizen
[09:28] <SuperMatt> I'd be quite interested to see how it reacts to a freshly intalled machine
[09:28] <mungbean> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10177765/Travellers-mobile-phone-data-seized-by-police-at-border.html
[09:28] <DJones> I was reading this yesterday http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23268893 which sounds quite interesting
[09:28] <mungbean> i thought they meant pikeys but they mean people en route
[09:29] <popey> oh, not seen that mungbean
[09:29] <popey> they could get your email passwords etc
[09:30] <SuperMatt> I do seem to remember a story which something like this: woman reports husband for kiddie porn. All PCs seized.   I think I'd rather not visit the UK
[09:34] <mungbean> there seems to be a price fixing on roof bars
[09:34] <popey> haha
[09:34] <mungbean> i mean how expensive?
[09:34] <popey> lovely subject seguey there
[09:34] <SuperMatt> y'know. I like the police, I had to deal with a couple of extremely nice ones this weekend. I think that it's government that's the issue with this stuff, and we need to pressure them to fix their policies
[09:34] <SuperMatt> the police are just having to deal with bad policy
[09:34] <mungbean> your rights are at their weakest at the border
[09:34] <DJones> There was a 1/2 hr programme on radio 4 this morning talking about privacy 9am "Privacy under pressure" Steve Hewlett's series on privacy begins with what our online behavior reveals
[09:34] <DJones> What I heard was quite interesting
[09:35] <popey> yeah, heard the intro, then started working
[09:35] <shauno> I thought it was disturbing enough last time I was stopped and asked what the purpose of my visit to the UK was.  and"dude, I'm british" didn't seem sufficient
[09:35] <SuperMatt> lol
[09:35] <mungbean> i like how the US say..."it's OK, we only collect on people we think with 51% certainty are foreign"
[09:36] <mungbean> as if that helps
[09:36] <SuperMatt> sure, if their name is Jesus Estafez, they're going to thinkk they're 51% foreign
[09:36] <DJones> It was as I was driving in so timed nicely, it was mostly talking about google & facebook along with smart phone apps and what data they have access to/collect and how the organisations use/don't use it and how they 'anonymise' it for release to advertisers
[09:37] <SuperMatt> and clearly this intelligence isn't working because we had a drummer hacked to death, and two bombs outside mosques.
[09:37] <SuperMatt> at the moment I feel we're more at threat in the UK by citizens
[09:37] <shauno> worth remembering in such conversations that most of us fit that description.  the US saying they only harvest foreigners doesn't make me feel one bit better
[09:37] <mungbean> SuperMatt: and if they wanted to get away, they would have
[09:38] <SuperMatt> well, I'm quite interested to know what has come of the mosque bombs and burnings
[09:38] <mungbean> i think the thugs are on summer hols atm
[09:38] <SuperMatt> because even though there weren't any casualties, I should hope they're being tracked down
[09:38] <SuperMatt> in fact, I want 24/7 news coverage
[09:39] <DJones> I was half expecting Alexander Hanff to get a mention on the programme
[09:41] <BigRedS> SuperMatt: perhaps there would have been more bad things without this intelligence?
[09:41] <SuperMatt> well I don't know
[09:42] <SuperMatt> if they're gonna use this kind of intelligence, I'd quite like to know what they're using it for, y'know
[09:42] <SuperMatt> to actually make me feel safer
[09:43] <BigRedS> they don't argue that it's there to make you feel safer, the argument is that it's there to make you safer
[09:43] <SuperMatt> at the moment, I feel I'm just being spied on, rather than kept safe
[09:43] <BigRedS> if they tell you what they're doing then they lose the secrecy and therefore the effectiveness
[09:43] <SuperMatt> but it's no secret our data is being watched
[09:44] <shauno> if we're meant to "just trust them", they need some framework/oversight/rules to make us trust them
[09:44] <BigRedS> no, but it never was
[09:44] <SuperMatt> so my point is: why not just tell us that "this data lead to this arrest"
[09:44] <BigRedS> you can't really have a domestic secret service and claim to believe thawt your data's not being inspected
[09:44] <BigRedS> SuperMatt: because the more data you make public about your intelligence gathering the easier it is to work out how you're doing it
[09:45] <BigRedS> and if you know how the spies are spying it's easier to evade them
[09:45] <SuperMatt> it doesn't have to be exact, I'd just like to see "using online intelligence, today x people were arrest for conspiring to y"
[09:46] <mungbean> is it revleaed in court?
[09:46] <BigRedS> I'd imagine not
[09:46] <SuperMatt> I don't know
[09:47] <BigRedS> I'd have thought you use secret data to identify people, then try to find enough publically-available intelligence to convict them
[09:47] <directhex> urgh. it is possible that the homehub 4 is worse than the homehub 3
[09:47] <BigRedS> since, again, you don't want anyone to know about your mechanisms
[09:47] <SuperMatt> true
[09:48] <shauno> that's how most of these work.  data obtained via sketchy methods isnt' admissable.  but it doesn't need to be.  it just needs to narrow down a large suspect pool to a narrow suspect pool so that they have the manpower to deal with it properly from there
[09:49] <shauno> they're not going to use "regularly visits xyz jihadist website(s)" as evidence.  because it's not.  but it's a helluva red flag
[09:49] <BigRedS> yeah, 'knowing' and 'proving' are two pretty distinct steps, and they apparently generally come in that order
[09:50] <mungbean> i'm still a bit uneasy about getting fingered for a crime by virtue of my phone and oyster card proving i was in the vicinity
[09:51] <SuperMatt> me too
[09:52] <SuperMatt> I'm getting a bit paranoid because I run my own email server. If the police said to me "let's see what you have on there" I could say no, but then people will ask "why are you hiding your stuff?"
[09:52] <mungbean> also, that there are things we could say 5yrs ago that are considered illegal now
[09:52] <SuperMatt> yeah, like that kid in America. He said something in bad taste, even said "lol, j/k" afterwards, but he was arrested and only released on $500,000 bail
[09:52] <SuperMatt> that's an abuse of power
[09:53] <directhex> yeah, well, "justice" in america ia a funny thing
[09:53] <directhex> as in "it's a punchline in jokes. otherwise, police state!"
[09:53] <SuperMatt> the goddamn child hadn't done anything wrong
[09:53] <popey> SuperMatt: is your mail server totally under your control or is it a vps?
[09:53] <SuperMatt> it's a vps
[09:53] <popey> if it's a vps they dont even need to ask you
[09:53] <SuperMatt> I know
[09:54] <popey> they will ask your provider who wont tell you if they give the feds access
[09:54] <SuperMatt> but at least it's not with any of the big companies
[09:54] <SuperMatt> it's a UK company
[09:54] <SuperMatt> so I'm feeling a little more secure
[09:54] <popey> hah
[09:54] <popey> wat
[09:54] <SuperMatt> at least I can't get accessed by american authorities ;)
[09:55] <mungbean> http://www.linkedin.com/jobs?viewJob=&jobId=6225673&trk=jobs_seeking_view_job&goback=%2Evjs_6312536_*2_*2_*2_false_*2_*2
[09:55] <mungbean> linaro seeking ubuntu heavy sysadmin
[09:56] <shauno> I'd hope the vps provider would at least have the spine to ask for a warrant
[09:57] <SuperMatt> me too
[09:58] <SuperMatt> If they have a warrant they can do whatever they like, because then a judge has been involved
[09:58] <SuperMatt> which means evidence has already been presented
[09:58] <SuperMatt> so I've probably done something wrong already
[09:58] <SuperMatt> but if I'm not with amazon or rackspace, I can be mostly certain I'm not being backdoored somehow
[09:58] <BigRedS> er
[09:59] <popey> i think you're being incredibly naive
[09:59] <popey> -typo
[09:59] <BigRedS> it depends what you mean by 'backdoored' but it would be trivial for us to monitor all traffic in and out of any machine
[10:00] <BigRedS> (any machine we host)
[10:00] <BigRedS> we don't, obviously, but there's no technical difficulty in doing it
[10:02] <SuperMatt> of course anyone truly wanting to spy will just watch the packets as the fly over the copper
[10:02] <mungbean> encrypted
[10:02] <shauno> isnt'at that basically what they're being accused of?  just slurping traffic en-masse
[10:03] <mungbean> although i read something about man-in the middle SSL done at ISP level, but not sure if just FUD, i mean , you'd know wouldn't you?
[10:03] <mungbean> if you can't end to end encrypt without knowing then the encryption system would be broken?
[10:04] <BigRedS> if it's a VPS you can just read the keys off the VM
[10:05] <shauno> depends what they have where.  our ssl gets mitm'd at work.  the only real indication is that if you remove zscaler's CA cert, everything breaks
[10:05] <BigRedS> yeah, I meant more when you've got a VPS and wish to communicate in secret
[10:06] <shauno> on something like the NSA's scale, what's the difference?  you have to trust they don't have access to any of the CAs you trust
[10:06] <mungbean> http://www.zdnet.com/how-the-nsa-and-your-boss-can-intercept-and-break-ssl-7000016573/
[10:06] <BigRedS> shauno: not much
[10:07] <mungbean> "The SSL proxy intercepts traffic between your computer and the Internet. When you surf to a "secure" site, it, and not your browser, get the real Web server certificate and handles setting up a perfectly good SSL connection between it and the Web server. The proxy then sends you a digital certificate, which looks like the Web server's certificate, and sets up a "secure" connection between your browser and the proxy."
[10:08] <shauno> that's what all the noise was last year about a few CA roots being untrustworthy
[10:08] <neuro> "surf" *snort*
[10:08] <mungbean> If your company has set up the proxy correctly you won't know anything is off because they'll have arranged to have the proxy's internal SSL certificate registered on your machine as a valid certificate.
[10:08] <mungbean> ^^ don't understand that line though
[10:09] <BigRedS> yeah, it only works if the machine you're using is controlled by the same people as the proxyu
[10:09] <mungbean> yeah
[10:09] <mungbean> so this is about your company
[10:09] <mungbean> rather than talktalk
[10:09] <mungbean> and your home pc
[10:09] <BigRedS> yeah
[10:09] <shauno> the proxy has to be able to re-sign the cert afterwards, which means it needs to be a CA you already trust
[10:09] <mungbean> so...sensationalist
[10:09] <mungbean> and FUD IMO
[10:10] <BigRedS> if you own everything all the way down to the hardware all this cert stuff works. But if you don't then it's feasible that someone else has modified it to not work transparently
[10:10] <shauno> obviously difficult for your isp etc, but not impossible to imagine the NSA have their fingers in any one of the roots that come with your browser
[10:11] <Laney> you can get browser extensions that detect such tinkering, which may help
[10:11] <shauno> eg, if any single one of these cooperates; http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/certs/included/
[10:11] <Laney> ISTR something involving Chrome, Google and the middle east
[10:14] <shauno> on a completely different topic, has anyone had problems grabbing 'web only' content with get_iplayer?
[10:15] <BigRedS> Laney: Turkish CA that got compromised and gave out Google certs?
[10:16] <Laney> something like that
[10:16] <Laney> and then the browser was like "oh no, this isn't right" because the chain didn't match up
[10:16] <popey> shauno: something with a /programmes/ url?
[10:18] <shauno> get_iplayer --pid=p01cr4n2   is my current example
[10:18] <shauno> but I notice they do start with p0 instead of b0, which may indicate the same thing you mean
[10:19] <shauno> I can't check how they actually appear on iplayer atm, because I'm at work, and that connection goes through france
[10:22] <popey> this was discussed recently on the get_iplayer list
[10:24] <popey> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23312579
[10:24] <neuro> huh
[10:24] <neuro> chrome doesn't support gopher://
[10:26] <shauno> does anything?  I think ff needs an addon for it now
[10:26] <neuro> i miss gopher
[10:27] <neuro> and wais
[10:27] <neuro> and archie
[10:27] <neuro> and veronica
[10:27] <neuro> simpler times
[10:30] <neuro> pulling down the latest version of mosaic netscape from SUNsite Northern Europe using fetch on a Mac LC in a uni lab ...
[10:32] <BigRedS> Anyone done anything with NFC tags and Android phones? Anything to bear in mind or is it as simple to do as it looks?
[10:33] <shauno> seem to recall Azelphur dabbling with that a while back
[10:33] <BigRedS> I presume there's an app I can download that'll let me make it do things near tags. Not sure exactly what yet...
[10:34] <popey> someone at our lug got a load made which took you to the lug website
[10:34] <popey> then started waving them under people's phones and they surprisngly just worked
[10:34] <popey> I tried to transfer a picture from one nexus 4 to another via nfc. it failed.. way too slow
[10:35] <shauno> that could be interesting.  get a load made up as beer coasters and wait
[10:36] <popey> his were stickers with the lug logo on
[10:38] <BigRedS> oh, right, so the tabs themselves are programmed?
[10:38] <popey> or something
[10:38] <popey> i dunno
[10:38] <BigRedS> I assumed they just sent a UUID and the phone had to be told what to do when it saw that
[10:38] <BigRedS> Hm, might have to read up on this
[10:40] <brobostigon> i noticed on my dads new lg tv, it had nfc in one corner, and you put your phone over it, and it downloaded the android software for said tv.
[10:41] <brobostigon> i used my nexus7, but same principal applies.
[10:44] <shauno> is it not something similar to how QR codes work?  they have a flag to describe what data they contain; url, phone number, vcartd, etc
[10:44] <brobostigon> in that case, i suspose so, yes.
[10:44] <BigRedS> oh, that'd make sense
[10:48] <shauno> http://nfcpy.readthedocs.org/en/latest/topics/ndef.html  has some crashcourse on the format.  completely different format to the ECI/SDD in QR, but same concept
[10:50] <BigRedS> ah, ta
[10:51] <shauno> didn't realise you could write new values into the tags.  finally explains the difference between that & rfid for me :)
[11:21] <christel> bigcalm: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/celebrity/jk-rowling-recorded-two-dubstep-albums-as-burial-2013071575752 saw that and thought of you!
[11:25] <bigcalm> christel: amusing :)
[11:42] <christel> :)
[11:49]  * bigcalm totters off to do his daily exercise
[11:50] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: a walk to the mail room and back? :P
[11:54] <bigcalm> Mail room? I work from home
[11:54] <bigcalm> Wii Fit +
[12:02] <popey> hi
[12:02] <popey> on a train on my ubuntu phone on 3g
[12:02] <popey> fun times
[12:02] <MartijnVdS> popey: is it stable?
[12:03] <popey> phone or 3g?
[12:05] <MartijnVdS> both
[12:05] <popey> arrived!
[12:05] <popey> seems.so
[12:09] <joshmyers> anyone here use openid before?
[12:11] <dwatkins> shame about his keyboard ;)
[12:30] <popey> Interesting, was I the only one to ping out?
[12:32] <shauno> popey: there was another 5 minutes before you, but otherwise, yes
[12:36] <popey> interesting
[12:44] <neuro> "We never want a long-standing customer like you to be unhappy. To resolve the complain, we can waive off the cancellation fee of £26.31 (VAT Exempt) for this number and will offer additional credit of £25.00. Please note that this decision is taken only based on your tenure with Vodafone."
[12:44] <neuro> ha
[12:46] <popey> ☻
[12:46] <neuro> note sure they realise what "tenure" means, but sod it, Free Money
[12:47] <knightwise> MHwhaaahaha ! :)
[12:47] <neuro> unless they're offering me a professorship or something
[12:47] <knightwise> just did a successfull export of my entire iTunes library and playlists into Ampache :)
[12:47] <neuro> if everything was well-tagged in advance, i'm not sure that sounds especially difficult :)
[12:48] <neuro> but you sound happy about it. Here, have a cookie.
[12:54] <davmor2> Morningish all
[12:54] <dvrr> Hiiiiii
[12:56] <dvrr> i have  proble  samba server shared folder could  you  help  me
[12:56] <mungbean> decision makers in my company don't want to allow areas of the wiki that are read-restricted to anyone less than $ALL
[12:56] <mungbean> stab stab stab
[12:58] <dvrr> please   could  you  resolve  samba  server  problem
[12:58] <BigRedS> dvrr: we can't help without knowing what the problem is
[12:58] <BigRedS> what's your specific question?
[12:58] <BigRedS> I, personally, probably can't help at all. But someone else might be able to
[13:00] <dvrr> i have  share folder
[13:01] <dvrr> i given  permission read/write
[13:01] <dvrr> how to  remove  delete  permission
[13:02] <dvrr> how to give read write permission not delete samba shared folder
[13:06] <SuperMatt> you can remove write permissions on the folder above it
[13:06] <diplo> dvrr:
[13:07] <dvrr> i have  given  read and write permissions samba share dolder  noe working  fine but  i want remove only delete
[13:08] <davmor2> Man hospitals are boring
[13:10] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: always take a Kindle :)
[13:10] <MartijnVdS> well, bring
[13:13] <Azelphur> shauno: it's simple
[13:13] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: I would if I had an interest in reading.  I'll maybe take a deck of cards and practise some tricks
[13:13] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: juggling balls!
[13:13] <dwatkins> I've started using my Kindla loads recently, since I put a range of different types of book on it.
[13:13] <dwatkins> *Kindle
[13:14] <dvrr> diplo: no i can't remove write permission only  remove  delete permission  it is  possable
[13:15] <davmor2> MartijnVdS: no if you drop one one of the nurses might fall on it cards are safer :)
[13:15] <dvrr> samba share folder
[13:34] <BigRedS> dwatkins: I've started using a FF plugin to send articles to mine, so whenever I happen across an interesting article of a paragraph or more I send it over
[13:35] <BigRedS> and then I've always got a fairly good selection of stuff to read
[13:38] <dwatkins> BigRedS: neat idea, I usually just e-mail myself a PDF
[13:40] <BigRedS> dwatkins: yeah, I find PDFs hard(er) to read on kindle than whatever it is that this plugin provides
[13:41] <BigRedS> it's from fivefilters.org
[14:46] <dwatkins> BigRedS: I agree, often the text is far too small, but I gather that's because they don't reflow when the font size is increased
[14:47] <BigRedS> yeah, it's a typesetting format, so it's not supposed to scale particularly well
[15:13] <dwatkins> looks like only some readers can do this: http://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/PDF#Reflow
[15:32]  * AlanBell jumps on a train to London
[15:32] <AlanBell> o/ nigelb and popey
[15:32] <popey> yo
[15:33] <AlanBell> any suggested starting point?
[15:38] <davmor2> AlanBell: I would start at the trainstation that you arrive in London so be honest, it's hard to start anywhere else :P
[15:46] <popey> AlanBell: well, i am going to this mobile thing https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/org/1617757584?s=15853795 from 18:00 will ~21:30
[15:47] <popey> AlanBell: then probably on to https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=kings+arms+roupell+street&hq=kings+arms+roupell+street&radius=15000&t=h&z=16
[15:47] <popey> as it's on the way back to waterloo
[15:50] <mungbean> windows cleartype giving me 6 useless options - which to choose?
[15:51] <mungbean> none of them readable..grrrr
[15:51] <MartijnVdS> mungbean: random :)
[15:51] <mungbean> seems not resettable
[16:06] <MartijnVdS> haha
[16:06] <MartijnVdS> http://tweakers.net/nieuws/90238/torvalds-brengt-release-candidate-linux-for-workgroups-311-kernel-uit.html
[16:06] <MartijnVdS> Codename of RC1 of Linux 3.11 is "Linux for Workgroups"
[16:16] <Azelphur> Does anyone here run Debian testing on their servers? how stable is it?
[16:17] <brobostigon> yes, i do, Azelphur
[16:17] <Azelphur> cool, hows that working for you?
[16:17] <brobostigon> very well.
[16:17] <Azelphur> good to hear :)
[16:17] <Azelphur> how long you had it running?
[16:18] <brobostigon> uptime?
[16:18] <MartijnVdS> time since install, probably
[16:18] <Azelphur> yea, time since install, just roughly
[16:18] <Azelphur> I have had problems with dist-upgrades and Ubuntu, so I like the idea of rolling release
[16:18] <brobostigon> about a year.
[16:18] <Azelphur> cool :)
[16:19] <Azelphur> yea, I'll take the plunge and go with Debian testing I think, I've played around with it in a VM and like it.
[16:20] <brobostigon> install two thingsd though, the apt bugs and apt changelog packages.
[16:20] <Azelphur> what do those do?
[16:20] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: one shows the bugs reported on packages you're upgrading
[16:20] <MartijnVdS> the other shows changelogs
[16:21] <Azelphur> ah, cool
[16:21] <MartijnVdS> helps you stop the upgrade BEFORE it breaks your system
[16:21] <brobostigon> useful especially as it is rolling.
[16:21] <Azelphur> so when doing an upgrade, use those basically
[16:21] <Azelphur> yea
[16:21] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: they're apt plugins
[16:21] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: so they're used automagically
[16:21] <brobostigon> yep.
[16:21] <Azelphur> automagically, nice \o/
[16:22] <brobostigon> avoiding breakage.
[16:23] <Azelphur> my current install on my server is 11.10, it had a hard shutdown when the data center flooded (ny hurricane), so it doesn't boot properly now haha, hense the desire to reload ;)
[16:23] <Azelphur> but yea, rolling release should go nicely with me I think
[16:23] <brobostigon> but be careful as i said, with those packages within apt.
[16:24] <Azelphur> yea, once I get it up and running I'll give you a nudge so you can show me how those packages work
[16:24] <Azelphur> :)
[16:24] <brobostigon> prod anyone, those are comon packages.
[16:24] <brobostigon> common*
[16:25] <Azelphur> righto :)
[16:25] <brobostigon> :)
[16:45] <X98> hello
[17:09] <neuro> MartijnVdS: wow, i am slow
[17:10] <neuro> i just realised that linkedin invite from you was, you know, from you :P
[17:10] <MartijnVdS> neuro: hi :)
[17:11] <neuro> :)
[17:11] <neuro> I AM LOOKING AT UR PROFILES!
[17:11] <MartijnVdS> O NOES
[17:11] <neuro> (as you'll probably know tomorrow when you get the "hey, some idiots were looking at your profile" message)
[17:12] <MartijnVdS> neuro: I get those a lot, since $employer announced intentions to lay of a lot of people
[17:12] <neuro> ooft
[17:12] <neuro> i thought xs were doing well
[17:12] <MartijnVdS> new CEO with a track record of outsourcing
[17:12] <neuro> lovely
[17:12] <neuro> been there
[17:13] <MartijnVdS> Claims we're "inefficient" and "can't deliver on time", while we're the only department that does deliver on time
[17:13] <neuro> i had to train my outsourced replacements :P
[17:13] <MartijnVdS> I'm at the "their loss" stage ;)
[17:13] <neuro> lol
[17:13] <neuro> "Hey, they can do the reactive things you do. Bye."
[17:14] <neuro> I oversimplify, but still ...
[17:14] <MartijnVdS> neuro: yeah, but we're the "annoying coders".. we ask questions back :)
[17:14] <MartijnVdS> "Did you think of X?" "What happens if we do this new X with the old Y?"
[17:15] <neuro> my experience with outsourcing coders is the immediate effect of buyer's remorse once you find out the outsourced coders generally won't have a hope of matching the internal team's skills
[17:15] <MartijnVdS> neuro: yeah, we have a few people who've "been outsourced before" on the team
[17:16] <neuro> hmm, new email has arrived. "Help Crowdsource a Mission to Mars!" Um, no.
[17:17] <MartijnVdS> neuro: what if they want you to help pick people who should go on the first trip there?
[17:17] <neuro> /list #ubuntu-uk | mail -s "SRSLY, SEND THESE GUYS"<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[17:17] <MartijnVdS> ಠ_ಠ
[17:18] <neuro> i've seen how things work on kickstarter, not sure i'd want a manned space mission to be funded in the same way
[17:18]  * peng42phone clickety clacks on a train
[17:19] <MartijnVdS> peng42phone: choo choo!
[17:19] <neuro> "UPDATE #47: Hey everyone, the new LOX recyc fast bleed system is almost ready, once we figure out why it keeps blowing up, but in other news, the T-shirts from funding tiers 3 upwards are shipping tomorrow! Yay!"
[17:20] <neuro> peng42phone: t-mobile. ew ;)
[17:20] <MartijnVdS> neuro: they give tiers names now
[17:20] <neuro> i know, i was kidding
[17:20] <peng42phone> MartijnVDS: almost, a slow diesel
[17:20] <MartijnVdS> neuro: "T-shirts from tiers MAJOR TOM and up are now shipping"
[17:20] <neuro> lol
[17:21] <MartijnVdS> neuro: (and the papers want to know whose shirt you wear..)
[17:22] <neuro> tiers ... "CAPRICORN ONE", "DUST DEVIL", "MAJOR TOM", "CARL SAGAN MEMORIAL STATION", "HOUSTON, WE'VE HAD A PROBLEM", "I SAY WE TAKE OFF AND NUKE THE SITE FROM ORBIT", "MAKE IT SO"
[17:23] <MartijnVdS> "Clavius Base"
[17:23] <neuro> TMA-1
[17:23] <MartijnVdS> exactly
[17:23] <peng42phone> "Memory alpha"?
[17:24]  * neuro cues up some waltz ...
[17:26] <neuro> ... eventually (after wrangling itunes into life)
[17:34]  * peng42phone waits at Preston
[17:34] <neuro> hehe, this is awesome
[17:34] <neuro> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/15/cameron-tweets-fake-iain-duncan-smith
[17:34] <neuro> whatever No. 10 intern runs Dave Cameron's twitter account linked to a fake Iain Duncan Smith account
[17:34] <neuro> whoooooops
[17:36] <MartijnVdS> intern executed?
[17:37] <neuro> ha
[17:37] <neuro> tut tut, someone just tried to auth to nickserv as me
[17:37] <MartijnVdS> maybe that same intern
[17:38] <neuro> lol
[17:38] <neuro> hope not, came from a comcast IP in washington state
[17:39] <MartijnVdS> .. or that's what MI[56] want you to believe
[17:43] <neuro> well that's what freenode reported the IP as ...
[17:45] <neuro> right, tesco delivery soon, time to clear out the fridge ;)
[17:50] <peng42phone> Hmph, standing room only
[19:56] <Azelphur> Is there a decent way of getting oracle java on Ubuntu?
[19:56] <MartijnVdS> Azelphur: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Java ?
[20:01] <Azelphur> seems like a manual install job since webupd8 has no java
[20:01] <ali1234> http://pastebin.com/4W4AwuY5 ಠ_ಠ
[20:02] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: Automatix reborn?
[20:02] <ali1234> yeah
[20:02] <MartijnVdS> where'd you find that, and can we kill it with fire?
[20:03] <ali1234> someone posted it on askubuntu with the question "why doesn't this script work?"
[20:03] <MartijnVdS> because it's wrong on so many levels
[20:03] <ali1234> i can only hope that it wasn't the script author
[20:03] <ali1234> if it was i feel sorry for anyone who runs it
[20:03] <MartijnVdS> last one's the kicker
[20:03] <MartijnVdS> "kingsoft office" from a server in China?


[07:31] <mup> PR snapd#13283 closed: secboot/luks2: remove unused variable <Created by MiguelPires> <Merged by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13283>
[07:36] <mup> PR snapd#13298 closed: o/snapstate: fix flaky local install cleanup test <Created by MiguelPires> <Merged by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13298>
[07:41] <mup> Issue snapcraft#4401 opened: misleading error message on "release" if mandatory arguments are missing <Bug> <Created by cjdcordeiro> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/issues/4401>
[10:37] <mup> PR snapd#13273 closed: boot: unlock snapd state when sealing keys <Run nested> <Created by valentindavid> <Merged by ernestl> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13273>
[10:37] <mup> PR snapd#13285 closed: overlord: make link-snap request a reboot for gadget updates if any update to assets was made <⚠ Critical> <Bug> <Run nested> <Created by Meulengracht> <Merged by ernestl> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13285>
[11:12] <mup> PR snapd#13299 opened: release: 2.61 <Squash-merge> <Created by Meulengracht> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13299>
[11:48] <mup> PR snapd#13299 closed: release: 2.61 <Squash-merge> <Skip spread> <Created by Meulengracht> <Merged by Meulengracht> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13299>
[12:48] <mup> PR snapd#13300 opened: tests/connected-after-reboot-revert: modify installed kernel <Run nested> <Run Nested -auto-> <Created by alfonsosanchezbeato> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13300>
[14:07] <mup> Issue snapcraft#4402 opened: icon is not handle properly when base is core22 <Bug> <Created by tsunghanliu> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapcraft/issues/4402>
[14:49] <mup> PR snapd#13252 closed: t/n/m/uc-update-command-line-secure: make it more stable <Test Robustness> <Run nested> <Run Nested -auto-> <Created by valentindavid> <Merged by Meulengracht> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13252>
[15:19] <mup> PR snapd#13080 closed: usersession: show reboot notification on core desktop <Needs Samuele review> <Created by robert-ancell> <Closed by mvo5> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13080>
[15:59] <mup> PR snapd#13209 closed: wrappers: allow PrefersNonDefaultGPU and SingleMainWindow keys in desktop files <Simple 😃> <Created by jhenstridge> <Merged by pedronis> <https://github.com/snapcore/snapd/pull/13209>