[03:03] <Gring0> h
[08:05] <sebsebseb> hi
[08:36] <brobostigon> morning boys and girls.
[08:48] <SuperEngineer> o/   [you're early!]
[08:55] <brobostigon> :)
[09:15] <sebsebseb> grr rennet
[10:01] <Gring0> which is better ubuntu or fedora?
[10:06] <sebsebseb> Gring0: depends
[10:07] <Gring0> ok  i used to use antergos been using ubuntu for a while now though
[10:17] <sebsebseb> Gring0: whats antergos again /
[10:17] <Gring0> arch
[10:27] <sebsebseb> Gring0: Fedora probably then
[10:27] <sebsebseb> Gring0: well depends
[10:27] <sebsebseb> Gring0: Fedora is more intermediate
[10:27] <sebsebseb> Ubuntu is more newbie
[10:41] <Gring0> how long u used ubuntu?
[10:44] <sebsebseb> Gring0: years, but I don't just use ubuntu
[10:59] <Gring0> what else you use?
[11:10] <brobostigon> openbsd, haiku, :)
[11:40] <Gring0> haiku
[11:40] <Gring0> never heard of that
[11:45] <diddledan> I use either templeos or mikeos
[11:47] <Gring0> lol
[11:47] <Gring0> do u watch terry?
[11:47] <Gring0> i never heard of mikeos
[11:48] <Gring0> cia.snickers
[11:49] <Gring0>  /join #hacking
[11:51] <Gring0>  /join #bitcoin
[11:52] <penguin42> learn to use irc first
[11:53] <Gring0> lol this is one i dont use x chat
[11:54] <Gring0> i have weechat and hexchat
[11:54] <Gring0> but they are set up for tor :/
[12:31] <brobostigon> haiku is the OSS successor to BeOS. :)
[18:49] <diddledan> this is a bit nuts: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/garage/project-details.aspx?project=translator-ppt
[18:50] <penguin42> potentially useful - if it gives sane translations
[18:50] <daftykins> i'm calling it now: someone's going to demo it in a high-brow event and the translation will be super rude
[18:51] <diddledan> daftykins: good plan. make it so!
[18:51] <Gring0> lol
[18:52] <daftykins> \o/
[19:59] <diddledan> https://twitter.com/calebbarlow/status/863845079949217794
[20:02] <daftykins> that's how you know who doesn't keep a backup :>
[20:05] <diddledan> I'm guessing a lot of that is the british :-p
[20:07] <daftykins> i've been a tad puzzled at the reports 'cause they keep talking about "wow why didn't you guys patch?" but then XP didn't have patches to begin with, sooo...
[20:08] <diddledan> "wow, why didn't you guys upgrade"
[20:09] <diddledan> you were told at least two years ago to get the hell off of XP!
[20:11] <diddledan> microsoft: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2017/05/14/need-urgent-collective-action-keep-people-safe-online-lessons-last-weeks-cyberattack/#sm.0012sr4r31392f7csvn21lreyslho
[20:13] <daftykins> before even reading, horses let to water and not drinking comes to mind ;D
[20:18] <ali1234> "you know when u upgrade windows and your scanner doesn't work any more? well imagine if it was a £100,000 brain scanner"
[20:19] <diddledan> at that price you should have a maintenance contract with your provider
[20:20] <ali1234> hopefully some of those providers are going to get sued
[20:20] <diddledan> it'll be interesting to ride this out
[20:20] <diddledan> I have no idea where we're going to end-up
[20:21] <ali1234> btw check out what got buried: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39885655
[20:21] <daftykins> diddledan: i vote not Kansas
[20:21] <diddledan> ^ +1
[21:38] <diddledan> if you wanna feel old, minority report was 15 years ago!
[21:39] <daftykins> whaaaaat
[21:39] <diddledan> INORITE
[21:39] <daftykins> where's my piece of acrylic portable storage drive?
[21:41]  * zmoylan-pi hands daftykins a dvd disk...
[21:41] <daftykins> oof you said disk with a k!
[21:44] <zmoylan-pi> and i preferred ice age over minority report...
[21:47] <zmoylan-pi> i knew i'd buy the dvd after seeing the trailer.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMfeWyVBidk
[21:59] <daftykins> i can click links now the baseball is over \o/
[21:59] <daftykins> ah you're a Skratman!
[22:01] <zmoylan-pi> scrats nutty adventure as an extra on the dvd alone was worth the price...
[22:20] <daftykins> oh going back to the ransomware jazz, it's kinda funny how many in Russia got hit :D
[22:20] <zmoylan-pi> plausible deniability... :-P
[22:21] <daftykins> i can't think whether they even use it legitimately or whether it's super widespread pirated like in China
[22:21] <daftykins> it being Windows and likely XP
[22:21] <zmoylan-pi> there was talk a few years back of russia developing their own government linux distro
[22:21] <daftykins> mmm i remember that
[22:21] <daftykins> also rumblings about making their own CPUs
[22:21] <zmoylan-pi> china had red flag linux but it wasn't updated iirc
[22:22] <diddledan> wasn't red flag the korean one?
[22:22] <zmoylan-pi> russia do have their own cpus but they're not great and are pricey last i looked...
[22:22] <zmoylan-pi> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux
[22:24] <zmoylan-pi> the north korean one... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS
[22:25] <zmoylan-pi> oooh, india, cuba and venezeula have ones too... flippin commies and their pushing open standards... :-P
[22:29] <zmoylan-pi> and the russian military linux... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_Linux
[22:33] <zmoylan-pi> and they have a few cpus... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_microprocessors


[00:09] <muka> krabador, I think easiest would be setting it in router?
[00:11] <krabador> muka, on ubuntu touch i mean
[00:14] <muka> never tried it but try googling something like ubuntu static ip
[00:15] <muka> not sure if it would work
[00:24] <stary-101> does ubuntu touch have a real linux kernel?
[00:26] <stary-101> like the same full fledged you get with ubuntu desktop
[00:47] <popey> stary-101, kinda
[00:47] <stary-101> as i understand it , it's a stripped linux kernal
[00:47] <popey> stary-101, it's a linux kernel with patches to support the device
[00:47] <stary-101> kernel
[00:47] <popey> what specifically you after?
[00:48] <stary-101> running software i run on my desktop on the phone
[00:48] <stary-101> i use ubuntu desktop
[00:48] <popey> such as?
[00:48] <popey> the kernel isn't the issue here usually
[00:49] <popey> it's the lack of X11
[00:49] <popey> and the fact desktop apps aren't optimised for touch screens
[00:49] <stary-101> what desktop manager does it use
[00:49] <popey> It's Unity 8 / Mir
[00:50] <stary-101> and compiled for ARM  i assume
[00:50] <stary-101> the packages
[00:50] <popey> yes
[00:50] <popey> we have a fork of the main ubuntu arm archive
[00:50] <stary-101> so in theory if i can compile my program for ARM
[00:50] <popey> sure
[00:50] <stary-101> without a gui, i should run it on ubuntu touch
[00:50] <popey> whether it runs or not is another matter, depends what dependencies it needs
[00:51] <stary-101> ow yeah of course
[00:51] <popey> we do build all kinds of things for / on ubuntu phone
[00:51] <stary-101> does it support javascript for a gui?
[00:52] <stary-101> i seem to have read you can make html5 and js for apps
[00:52] <popey> you can, yes
[00:52] <stary-101> cool
[00:52] <popey> qml, html5.. some apps are c++
[00:52] <stary-101> nodejs?
[00:53] <popey> we also have python & java apps
[00:53] <popey> sure
[00:53] <popey> i think so :)
[00:54] <stary-101> why is there no iso, i can run on my phone?
[00:55] <popey> because arm hardware doesn't work like pc x86 hardware
[00:56] <popey> you have to port ubuntu to the device
[00:56] <Elleo> stary-101: unfortunately phones aren't really standardised like desktop systems, so each phone needs an individual port, this page gives details on phones for which there are ports: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices
[00:56] <popey> because arm
[00:57] <stary-101> hmz
[00:57] <stary-101> that's too bad
[00:57] <popey> welcome to arm
[00:57] <popey> what device do you have?
[00:57] <stary-101> hahaha
[00:57] <stary-101> s4
[00:58] <stary-101> and i see the device has been abandoned
[00:58] <popey> it's certainly a candidate
[00:58] <popey> that someone could update the port - or re-do it
[00:58] <popey> it's better specced than some devices we've seen ports for
[00:59] <stary-101> wouldn't in theory : that you can compile a linux kernel for a device
[00:59] <stary-101> for that type of phone
[00:59] <popey> thats part of it, yeah
[00:59] <stary-101> these installs are precompiled linux kernels right
[01:00] <stary-101> specifically for that model
[01:00] <popey> yes
[01:00] <stary-101> before the linux kernel is loaded, the boot loader is loaded
[01:00] <stary-101> that loads the kernel
[01:01] <stary-101> and since the boatloader is just software, wouldn't it be possible to check the device, before the kernel is loaded
[01:02] <popey> but the specific kernel version needs building for that device
[01:03] <stary-101> so compiling the kernel before it is loaded is not possible?
[01:03] <popey> no
[01:03] <popey> e.g. the bq e4.5 is 3.4.67 with drivers for the mediatek SoC, the kernel for the OnePlus One is 3.4 with drivers for the Qualcomm SoC  etc
[01:03] <stary-101> those are modules correct?
[01:04] <popey> each device differs, even two devices from the same mfr with similar device names / numbers have different kernels
[01:04] <popey> the SoC is the chip, "System On Chip" - CPU and other bits and bobs
[01:04] <lpotter> most likely they are proprietary blobs
[01:04] <popey> often comes with 3d / bluetooth / wifi / GSM etc
[01:04] <popey> and yes, most of which have blobs for drivers.
[01:04] <stary-101> so there wouldn't be a way to have a unified software that checks the hardware
[01:05] <stary-101> before deciding to load which one
[01:05] <popey> not on arm
[01:05] <popey> not yet
[01:06] <popey> maybe in 2 years or more
[01:06] <stary-101> like a bios
[01:06] <stary-101> sortof
[01:06] <popey> still no.
[01:06] <mcphail> stary-101: no BIOS on arm, which is a massive pain
[01:07] <stary-101> so i'm i right to assume, the default boatloader on a linux device
[01:07] <stary-101> is also different with every model
[01:07] <mcphail> yes
[01:07] <lpotter> and also proprietary, usually
[01:08] <stary-101> hm
[01:09] <stary-101> so what is needed is a instruction set that is common like x86
[01:10] <popey> lots of things are needed
[01:10] <popey> some of which are under discussion or development
[01:10] <popey> but not ready yet
[01:10] <mcphail> stary-101: there's also the complication of the RIL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Interface_Layer which seems to be where most ports fail
[01:11] <lpotter> might try the Fairphone https://www.fairphone.com/
[01:11] <stary-101> is this because of vendor lock in
[01:11] <mcphail> stary-101: ARM is just a mess
[01:12] <mcphail> stary-101: then phone manufacturers add another layer of mess
[01:12] <popey> unlike x86, there isn't just "x86" and "amd64", there's a ton of specifications set out by ARM (the company)
[01:12] <stary-101> right
[01:12] <popey> and each silicon manufacturer makes chips which follow those various specs
[01:13] <popey> see raspberry pi, pi 2 for a simple example. one is armv6, the other is armv7
[01:13] <stary-101> so in theory, if there were a x86-arm instruction set, this would mean, unified kernel?
[01:13] <popey> the instruction set is well defined, that's not the problem
[01:14] <popey> binary blobs for drivers is one big one
[01:14] <mcphail> stary-101: the instruction set isn't the issue
[01:14] <popey> lack of ACPI type things is another
[01:14] <popey> device discovery is missing in arm
[01:14] <stary-101> is the many different configurations the manufactures use
[01:14] <stary-101> with different hardware components
[01:14] <stary-101> *it's
[01:15] <stary-101> (just trying to wrap my head around all of this :) )
[01:15] <mcphail> stary-101: and, on phones, the interface to the completely separate and proprietary operating system running in the radio layer
[01:15] <popey> yeah, all phones have effectively two operating systems
[01:15] <stary-101> mcphail: wouldn't that layer still be higher level than the kernel
[01:15] <popey> one that you see, that you interact with, and a completely separate one you never see
[01:16] <popey> not higher, side by side
[01:16] <mcphail> stary-101: nothing to do with the kernel
[01:16] <popey> different cpu
[01:16] <popey> like having two computers in one case.
[01:16] <stary-101> hm
[01:16] <stary-101> wth?
[01:16] <popey> one being very tiny and dedicated to one task - dealing with radio communications
[01:16] <stary-101> a radio processor?
[01:16] <popey> yeah
[01:17] <popey> baseband processor
[01:17] <stary-101> so there is a seperate firmware for the radio processor
[01:17] <stary-101> which interacts with the main os
[01:17] <popey> yeah
[01:17] <mcphail> stary-101: I hope, one day, there will be a "one-click" way to build Ubuntu for any device which has a Cyanogenmod port, stealing the work which has already  been done by their porters
[01:17] <popey> would love that too
[01:17] <stary-101> that is what made linux big
[01:17] <popey> the porting guide could then become sentient and go out finding devices to port
[01:17] <popey> and port them
[01:17] <stary-101> running it on any computer at home
[01:17] <popey> whether the owner wants it or not
[01:17] <mcphail> ha!
[01:17] <popey> i disagree
[01:18] <popey> android is way bigger than any linux distro
[01:18] <stary-101> i think the server world is still bigger
[01:18] <stary-101> isn't it?
[01:18] <popey> depends how you define size
[01:18] <popey> number of activated android handsets per day is a scary number
[01:19] <popey> 1.5 million _per_ _day_ last number I saw
[01:19] <mcphail> popey: more than the 1 billion Ubuntu users ;p
[01:19] <stary-101> yeah but what i mean is that , when linus himself went out and bought unix
[01:19] <popey> nearly
[01:19] <stary-101> he decided to make something that can run for everyone right
[01:19] <popey> sure, and my kids and older relatives can use android
[01:20] <popey> which has linux under it
[01:20] <stary-101> yes
[01:20] <popey> so he kinda succeeeded there
[01:26] <stary-101> on another note
[01:27] <stary-101> you think steamos is going to change gaming for ubuntu
[01:27] <stary-101> or linux in general
[01:27] <popey> who knows
[01:27] <popey> I certainly have way more games on my Linux machine now than I did 3 years ago
[01:27] <popey> so "yay"
[01:28] <stary-101> yeah because game engines are now being designed with linux in mind
[01:29] <stary-101> funny thing , 14 years ago i met someone who said that linux is going to be big
[01:29] <stary-101> way before android of course
[01:30] <stary-101> i thought he was mad
[01:30] <stary-101> so i didn't spend my time on it, but just tested a few distros
[01:30] <stary-101> way back then, the interfaces were horrible
[01:31] <stary-101> but alas, we are here today
[01:32] <popey> Yeah, first time I heard about Linux I thought the guy was demented
[01:32] <popey> Who wants _that_!?
[01:32] <popey> Shows how wrong you can be
[01:33] <stary-101> i still think that program installation on linux
[01:33] <stary-101> can be way more user friendly
[01:34] <stary-101> linux pointed that out not too long ago, that , that needs to be worked on
[01:34] <stary-101> *linus
[01:35] <stary-101> something unified
[01:35] <stary-101> the standard installation package for linux
[01:35] <stary-101> as simple as an exe or dmg
[01:35] <stary-101> wouldn't that be something
[01:36] <stary-101> exe is noob-friendly, as is dmg,   tar not so much
[01:37] <popey> People don't install tarballs on ubuntu phone :)
[01:37] <stary-101> i just mean linux in general
[01:38] <popey> right
[01:38] <stary-101> on android it's even more noob-friendly than exe
[01:38] <popey> it's 2016, people use package managers
[01:38] <stary-101> new users to linux expect to install files from the web
[01:39] <stary-101> i agree that using a package manager is friendly
[01:39] <stary-101> but installing software from the web, is what people expect
[01:41] <stary-101> do you agree?
[01:41]  * popey shrugs
[01:41] <popey> It appears to be my bed time. nn
[01:42] <stary-101> ok good night
[01:42] <lpotter> do you mean untrusted apps from anywhere?
[01:42] <lpotter> or just generally downloadable apps
[01:42] <stary-101> generally downloadable apps
[01:43] <stary-101> as general as possible
[01:43] <stary-101> like an exe or dmg
[01:43] <genii> Linspire already tried the "install from web" approach with linux and CNR, didn't go over that well
[01:43] <lpotter> sure. thats why there are app stores
[01:44] <stary-101> app stores yes, but what if you just made a program, and represented it on your website
[01:44] <stary-101> for mac, i can just download the dmg, for windows, the exe
[01:44] <lpotter> then you mean untrusted apps
[01:45] <stary-101> well my former referencing was to linus who said there is no common software package for linux in general
[01:45] <lpotter> linux has package mangaer that do that.
[01:45] <stary-101> but what if i have an installtion file i wanted to send to you
[01:45] <lpotter> linux has 3 generally - rpm, deb and tgz
[01:46] <stary-101> right
[01:46] <stary-101> which one would you say is the most user friendly
[01:46] <lpotter> click on it in gui filemanager will open/install
[01:46] <lpotter> its not hte file that makes it user friendly, it's the package manager
[01:47] <stary-101> what about a unified solution?
[01:47] <lpotter> why does there need to be one?
[01:47] <stary-101> wouldn't it be the most friendly way?
[01:47] <lpotter> just like theres not just one gui for linux
[01:48] <stary-101> like all versions of windows use mainly .exe, all mac versions use dmg
[01:48] <stary-101> right!
[01:48] <lpotter> those file types are built around just one company each
[01:48] <lpotter> linux is many companies
[01:49] <stary-101> but used by billions
[01:49] <stary-101> of use cases
[01:49] <lpotter> I dont see the problem
[01:50] <lpotter> each distribution has its own way of installing apps
[01:50] <stary-101> let's say there is no .deb or rpm just a tgz file of an application
[01:51] <stary-101> is tgz noob-friendly?
[01:51] <lpotter> you can't install an exe on mac or a dmg on windows
[01:51] <stary-101> i know, but the kernel is completely different in those cases
[01:51] <lpotter> its not the file that make it user friendly, it that app handler
[01:51] <lpotter> if you use a tgz based distro, the app handler can pop up the app installer
[01:52] <stary-101> one simple example
[01:53] <stary-101> tgz files under linux are installed through extracting, configure, make, make install
[01:53] <stary-101> right?
[01:53] <lpotter> not necessarily
[01:54] <popey> Also, nobody does that. It's 2016, not 1999
[01:54] <genii> tgz files can contain anything. whether it's the source code to make the app, or whether it contains the binaries, or anything else, is unknown until you extract it
[01:54] <stary-101> let's say i am a linux noob
[01:54] <lpotter> popey: gentoo does that, I believe :)
[01:54] <stary-101> and i get a tgz file
[01:54] <popey> Again, 2016 :)
[01:54] <popey> You ask an expert
[01:55] <popey> Just like you would if you were a windows noob
[01:55] <popey> or mac noob
[01:55] <genii> ...also, as for installing apps onto Ubunto from web... isn't there still https://apps.ubuntu.com/cat/  ... ?
[01:55] <popey> and they solve your problem though direct help and education
[01:55] <stary-101> no if i get a dmg or exe i can just install it mostly
[01:55] <stary-101> i don't need to ask an expert
[01:55] <popey> stary-101, you're re-making the same point over and over for an hour now
[01:56] <popey> _you_ might not need to ask an expert
[01:56] <popey> my mum would
[01:56] <stary-101> forget it then
[01:56] <popey> my mother in law has a mac, never installed anything
[01:57]  * mcphail coughs, a rather odd sound which resembles "#ubuntu-offtopic or ##linux"
[01:58] <stary-101> ill give you the video were linus adresses his frustration with the different installation methods for distro's
[01:59] <mcphail> stary-101: would you be kind enough to move this discussion elsewhere? It is offtopic in this channel
[02:00] <stary-101> i don't agree it's off topic were are talking about the fundemental core sofware that ubuntu is based upon, as is ubuntu touch
[02:01] <stary-101> but for the sake of it, yeah why not
[02:01] <mcphail> Thank you
[02:03] <stary-101> ill skip this channel when talking about anything related to the kernel, and mostly talk about specific ubuntu touch related topics
[02:03] <stary-101> which you the best of luck
[02:03] <stary-101> wish
[02:03] <lpotter> I think Linus should stick to making the kernel better... and more unified
[02:24] <dobey> what is going on here
[02:25] <dobey> lol was that studio again
[02:30] <genii> Most likely. Same modus operandi
[02:50] <dobey> indeed
[05:50] <fella> hello fellas and fellows
[05:50] <fella> I am looking for a chat buddy to help me with an issue
[05:51] <fella> I am looking for a chat buddy to help me with an issue
[05:52] <fella> i have an RCS Viking PRO 10 and want to install Ubuntu Touch. How can I kno if an install on this device will be successfull?
[05:53] <fella> *RCA
[05:54] <fella> Is there no one in this room?
[06:32] <lpotter> I'm here
[06:33] <lpotter> I guess the measure of success is booting into ubuntu touch :)
[06:33] <lpotter> hmm I guess he left/
[06:34] <lpotter> bummer.. web media player stops playing when phone display blanks :(
[06:48] <Mirv> we're still waiting for the future where issues related to app lifecycle management have solutions
[06:49] <Mirv> meanwhile, power users tend to install openstore + tweakgeek so they can allow background running of eg terminal + whatever they want
[06:51] <lpotter> ahh... heh
[06:56] <lpotter> I would think background audio from web would be rather important use case
[07:01] <lpotter> media player doesnt stream either...
[07:14] <lpotter> much better
[07:20] <elimisteve> popey: In an Ubuntu Phone Community Q&A it was mentioned that "scopes are about to get a lot better". Is that coming soon? Is it clear which APIs will be added?
[07:20] <elimisteve> popey: this was from probably 2 months ago, IIRC
[07:41] <dholbach> good morning
[08:29] <adeen-s> how do i fix the" no rule to make target for dtbtool" error ?
[10:00] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Wednesday, and happy Skeptics Day! 😃
[10:18] <robin-hero> Morning JamesTait, I don't believe that today is Skeptics day! :P :D
[10:20] <JamesTait> That's the spirit, robin-hero!
[10:23] <robin-hero> :D
[13:20] <ogra_> hmm, my flo is in a reboot loop since todays rc-proposed update
[13:20] <ogra_> ah, now it came up after 8 reboots (5 of them evenb without any splash after the google logo)
[13:24] <conkey3> ogra_, that's not good!
[13:24] <conkey3> ogra_, arale seems fine
[13:25] <robin-hero> krillin too
[13:29] <JHOSMAN> Hello, i have this problem with MultiRom (Custom for Ubuntu Touch OnePlus ONE) http://i.imgur.com/kRbMBz9.jpg i read this guide  https://wiki.ubports.com/w/OnePlus_One#How_to_install_Ubuntu_Touch_using_MultiRom
[14:05] <JHOSMAN> you can help me to install Ubuntu Touch in OnePlus One?
[14:05] <JHOSMAN> With dualboot
[14:06] <pmcgowan> popey, do you have oneplus one
[14:08] <dobey> mariogrip: ^^ JHOSMAN is trying to install opo with multirom
[14:10] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: https://wiki.ubports.com/w/OnePlus_One#How_to_install_Ubuntu_Touch_using_MultiRom
[14:10] <JHOSMAN> multirom from Google Play says "This divice no compatible" dobey
[14:11] <mariogrip> oh, is the cache full?
[14:12] <mariogrip> do you have adb?
[14:12] <dobey> i don't have an opo, nor use android, so i can't really help :)
[14:12] <mariogrip> or a terminal app downloaded?
[14:13] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: https://forums.ubports.com/topic/26/how-to-install-ubuntu-touch-via-multirom/1
[14:13] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: no, cache no full, Although, I could tell as I check?
[14:14] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: adb? why?
[14:14] <popey> pmcgowan, i do
[14:14] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: With adb you can use adb shell to get terminal
[14:14] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: but, if you have a terminal app that will work to
[14:14] <popey> i dont do dual boot tho, and mariogrip is the right guy :)
[14:15] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: we need to check if cache is full, and if it's mounted at all
[14:17] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: yes im adb shell
[14:17] <mariogrip> first try ls -la
[14:17] <mariogrip> ls -la /cache
[14:20] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip:  http://i.imgur.com/sx6Q3kb.png
[14:22] <mariogrip> oh, sorry i ment -lh
[14:23] <mariogrip> ls -lh /cache
[14:23] <mariogrip> but, just wipe cache
[14:23] <JHOSMAN> ls: Unknown option '-h'. Aborting.
[14:25] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: for me it looks like cache might be full, can you try to wipe cache?
[14:26] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip:  can you give me a command from adb? (btw I have the 64GB version and have plenty of room)
[14:27] <mariogrip> just do rm -r /cache/*
[14:27] <ogra1> &
[14:29] <JHOSMAN> ok no?
[14:29] <JHOSMAN> now?
[14:30] <mariogrip> then try multirom again
[14:31] <JHOSMAN> reboot :D
[14:31] <mariogrip> did it work?
[14:31] <JHOSMAN> Injecting boot image
[14:32] <mariogrip> yey :)
[14:32] <JHOSMAN> You should edit the Wiki to keep that in mind, I was really lost.
[14:33] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: Yeah, i'll do that. i'm working on a new wiki, so I'll make sure to add that in
[14:33] <JHOSMAN> my phone no boot now! :E
[14:33] <JHOSMAN> black screen
[14:35] <mariogrip> log?
[14:35] <JHOSMAN> no no log
[14:36] <JHOSMAN> i reboot now, watiing...
[14:37] <mariogrip> does mulitrom work, where you can switch between android and ubuntu? or nothing works?
[14:39] <JHOSMAN> Android does not start, was just installing MultiROM. Android screen goes black.
[14:39] <JHOSMAN> $ adb shell error: device not found
[14:39] <JHOSMAN> android not start
[14:39] <mariogrip> what rom did you use?
[14:39] <mariogrip> did you install correct kernel??
[14:39] <JHOSMAN> One OnePlus buttons are on light
[14:40] <JHOSMAN> I use OxigenOS (opo rom oficial)
[14:40] <JHOSMAN> yes i installthe correct kernel 5.0.x
[14:41] <mariogrip> but did multirom work? did you see a screen like this? http://i.imgur.com/vUYXIiz.png
[14:41] <JHOSMAN> no
[14:42] <JHOSMAN> in boot only black screen
[14:42] <JHOSMAN> OxygenOS no boot
[14:42] <mariogrip> ok, then we will just flash back to oxygen kernel
[14:44] <JHOSMAN> You can help me? :(
[14:44] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: Yes
[14:44] <JHOSMAN> :)
[14:47] <JHOSMAN> a moment
[14:47] <JHOSMAN> Multirrom appears
[14:48] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: Does android work now then?
[14:48] <JHOSMAN> no
[14:49] <mariogrip> Im gonna find the oxygen kernel
[14:49] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: I disconnected the USB cable, restart the phone and MultiBoot appeared, I selected Android, but Android does not start. On top of that came the option of Ubuntu.
[14:49] <JHOSMAN> ok I waitting oxigen Kernel
[14:49] <JHOSMAN> :)
[14:50] <JHOSMAN> I think you can document a lot with this case :) :P
[14:53] <mariogrip> jup :P
[14:54] <mariogrip> try flashing this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98135991/multirom/multirom_uninstaller.zip
[14:54] <mariogrip> using recovery
[14:59] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: did that work?
[15:00] <JHOSMAN> im working :)
[15:01] <JHOSMAN> adb push multirom_uninstaller.zip /sdcard
[15:01] <tedg> mdeslaur: mterry: do you guys remember why we don't have a keyring on the phone? Was it just because we didn't use PAM originally?
[15:02] <JHOSMAN> and flashing!
[15:02] <JHOSMAN> im reboot
[15:02] <mterry> tedg, we started using PAM relatively quickly...  But it's true we did have a very initial gap
[15:03] <tedg> Yeah, I just didn't know if the seed kinda got made in that gap.
[15:03] <mterry> tedg, but I think in general we didn't want to password prompts (for unlocking the keyring or whatever)
[15:03] <tedg> That doesn't happen with the PAM module, right?
[15:04] <mterry> tedg, general approach being to use services to proxy access to things rather than granting apps full access to passwords
[15:04] <mterry> tedg, oh sure you can unlock at login time.  But then there's just open season on the passwords
[15:04] <mterry> tedg, I guess we're confined and all...
[15:04] <JHOSMAN> ok mariogrip , Android does not load, it stays on the logo OnePlus. now?
[15:04] <tedg> Sure, but a keyring would be more for services to store things encrypted instead of implementing the encryption themselves.
[15:05] <mterry> tedg, sounds like we're getting into tvoss territory
[15:05] <tedg> The specific use case here is storing network passwords for network manager. It wouldn't be for apps.
[15:05] <tvoss> tedg, what for exactly?
[15:06] <tedg> Last thing we want is people implementing their own encryption :-)
[15:06] <mariogrip> can you reboot to recovery and send me last_kmsg - adb pull /proc/last_kmsg
[15:06] <tedg> tvoss: VPN
[15:06] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: ^
[15:06] <mdeslaur> tedg: we didn't have keyring mediation to prevent one app from getting secrets for another app
[15:06] <tedg> mdeslaur: So for trusted services though, there wouldn't be an issue.
[15:07] <mdeslaur> tedg: network manager doesn't use the keyring anyway, AFAIK
[15:07] <mdeslaur> (well, at least for wifi stuff)
[15:07] <tedg> mdeslaur: I believe this is for VPN credentials
[15:07] <tedg> I was chatting with pete-woods about it, he might have more details there.
[15:08] <mdeslaur> oh, for the vpn, yeah, it probably does
[15:08] <JHOSMAN> ~ # last_kmsg - adb pull /proc/last_kmsg /sbin/sh: last_kmsg: not found
[15:08] <tvoss> tedg, okay, so we are talking about one trusted piece talking to another trusted piece
[15:08] <mdeslaur> tedg: that's all I can think of, pam
[15:08] <tedg> tvoss: Correct
[15:08] <JHOSMAN> excuseme
[15:09] <tvoss> tedg, so correct me if I'm wrong, but we own all the pieces of the puzzle, don't we?
[15:09] <tedg> I had suggested we just seed a keyring, but I wanted to make sure that was sane.
[15:10] <tedg> tvoss: Kinda, I think that the VPN plugins are the ones that want to use the fd.o DBus API for secrets.
[15:10] <tedg> tvoss: We write the command-and-control but the implementations are NM.
[15:10] <tvoss> tedg, okay, but we still control the installed plugins, correct?
[15:10] <JHOSMAN> file no exist
[15:10] <V99> bq aquaris E5 is compatible with multiboot?
[15:11] <tedg> tvoss: Correct. Though I've heard opening the source to them requires an extra day of sick pay.
[15:11] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: http://i.imgur.com/aAxtGLs.jpg
[15:11] <tvoss> tedg, sure, kinda expected
[15:12] <tvoss> tedg, with that, seeding a keyring is probably good enough, under the assumption that we have a minimal keyring service running (that is, with anything ui patched out)
[15:13] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN:  try flashing this kernel: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98135991/multirom/cm12.zip
[15:13] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: I cannot find the oxygen os kernel
[15:13] <tedg> tvoss: Makes sense to me, don't want to write the PAM/encryption/security pieces. You do that then you have to spend time with the security team, then you get paranoid about everything! ;-)
[15:14] <tvoss> tedg, I like those guys, and I think tinfoil hats are a great accessoire ;)
[15:14] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: i go to files oxygenos
[15:14] <tvoss> mariogrip, check your pn
[15:15]  * tedg knits a tinfoil scarf for tvoss
[15:16] <tvoss> fancy
[15:16] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: how to flash this?  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98135991/multirom/cm12.zip
[15:17] <mariogrip> with the recovery
[15:18] <JHOSMAN> ok
[15:25] <JHOSMAN> i install cm12.zip and Android no boot
[15:25] <JHOSMAN> appears only Logo of OnePlus =(
[15:27] <JHOSMAN> :'(
[15:30] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: I checked the installer OxygenOS, but has no file Kernel.
[15:32] <mterry> jdstrand, tyhicks: one add-on to the "separate lockscreen password" conversation -- so if we just stick it in AS, it doesn't require having the old password to change it.  Just be an unconfined user process.  Is that acceptable?  It's "just" the lockscreen password, but malicious actors could still annoy there -- being locked out of your laptop / phone is not great
[15:33] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: Just flash all of the oxygenOS zip, that shoud work
[15:36] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: i need reinstall all oxygenOS?
[15:36] <JHOSMAN> =(
[15:36] <tyhicks> mterry: that's fine - that'd be no different than if it were in a file in the user's home dir
[15:36] <tyhicks> mterry: I do want jdstrand's ack before we move forward with that, though
[15:36] <mterry> tyhicks, yeah...  we *could* get complicated and have a root daemon managing access etc
[15:37] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: No, just flash over it like an ota
[15:37] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: it will not delete anything, it will just work as an update
[15:38] <tyhicks> mterry: well, there's still the issue of what happens if the lock screen and admin passwords are set to the same password
[15:38] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip:  You can orient myself, I lost myself. This is the installer OxyogenOS, now what? http://oxygenos.oneplus.net/oxygenos_1.0.0.zip
[15:39] <tyhicks> mterry: will AS simply hand over the lock screen password to any process that asks for it or will processes submit guesses to AS?
[15:39] <mterry> tyhicks, I don't remember a problem with that case?  You mean it's just easier to brute force lockscreen, and that might give you admin?
[15:40] <tyhicks> mterry: yes
[15:40] <mterry> tyhicks, well we *could* add API to AS to be clever.  But the easiest solution is to just drop the crypted password as an AS property that it exposes to any unconfined app.
[15:40] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: Unzip it, and flash oxygenos_1.0.0.flashable.zip in recovery. but are you sure 1.0.0 is the version that you have installed?
[15:41] <tyhicks> mterry: hrm... that would lower the security of the system since any unconfined process could brute force the password without any sorts of delays
[15:41] <tyhicks> there'd be no limits on guesses, etc.
[15:41] <JHOSMAN> :P
[15:41] <JHOSMAN> is https://s3.amazonaws.com/oxygenos.oneplus.net/ONE_12_A.01_150827.zip
[15:42] <mterry> tyhicks, I thought you guys already said you didn't care about delays on the lockscreen password.  But you're right that it would be easier to brute force
[15:42] <mterry> tyhicks, (My memory of that is from a long time ago, when considering pam config delays in Touch)
[15:43] <tyhicks> mterry: I don't remember that but wouldn't be surprised if you're right
[15:43] <tyhicks> mterry: I don't know if I thought about the case where the two passwords were the same
[15:43] <mterry> tyhicks, yeah well that's a new wrinkle -- note that the user would have to specifically set a lockscreen password that is the same as the admin.  If the user chooses the UI option "same as admin password", we just don't store anything in AS
[15:45] <JHOSMAN> ok wait please. I download the file
[15:48] <tyhicks> mterry: we should discuss what the architecture should look like
[15:49] <tyhicks> mterry: you mentioned using AS the other day but have you considered simply writing a new pam module that checks a file other than /etc/shadow and using a different pam config for the lockscreen and calling into that pam module instead of pam_unix?
[15:49] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: http://i.imgur.com/k1XWioR.png
[15:51] <mariogrip> ok, you can take boot.img and flash it using fastboot
[15:53] <mterry> tyhicks, I'm going to have to write a PAM module anyway.  But AS was easy to use as a storage medium (and meant we could stuff all metadata about the password -- should it be displayed as pin? -- in the same place for easy atomic updating)
[15:53] <JHOSMAN> Ok, i go!
[15:53] <mterry> tyhicks, PAM doesn't really offer a way to convey metadata past overloading the prompt string and having UIs interpret that (to my knowledge...)
[15:54] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: fastboot flash boot boot.img
[15:54] <JHOSMAN> ????
[15:54] <tyhicks> mterry: yeah, I'm not sure how much metadata can be conveyed
[15:55] <tyhicks> mterry: note how there are /etc/pam.d/lightdm{,-autologin,-greeter}
[15:55] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: yes
[15:55] <JHOSMAN> ok
[15:56] <mterry> tyhicks, yeah I'll restrict usage of my module to the appropriate lightdm contexts
[15:57] <mterry> tyhicks, and maybe overriding prompt string is enough metadata for the UI to present (since we can assume anyone using this module is aware of the prompt situation), but I'm not sure how to set whether it's a PIN or not when changing the password via PAM...
[15:57] <JHOSMAN> Booting! now :D
[15:58] <mterry> tyhicks, the way I currently handle this is to store a display hint in AS and update pam separately
[15:58] <mterry> tyhicks, but I was hoping to use a more tightly integrated solution here
[15:58] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: You can give me the instructions to proceed with the installation of Ubuntu Touch?
[15:58] <mterry> tyhicks, since that's a little brittle (and code has to be very careful to roll back changes if one of the updates doesn't take)
[15:59] <tyhicks> mterry: looking at the passwd man page, I'm curious about the -r option
[15:59] <tyhicks> mterry: I wonder if that allows us to have a different /etc/shadow that is for lockscreen passwords
[16:00] <tyhicks> (the metadata issue is still a potential problem)
[16:01] <mterry> tyhicks, interesting...  And then simply use that when reading/setting.  We could keep existing infrastructure for metadata I guess.  I was just hoping to make it nicer.  Let me think about that
[16:01] <tyhicks> mterry: I don't see a corresponding repository option to pass to pam_unix but adding a bit of code to pam_unix is much easier than writing a new module from scratch
[16:02] <mterry> tyhicks, ugh really?  I'd think we would want to avoid touching pam_unix at all costs :)
[16:02] <tyhicks> mterry: we'd get to reuse all of the shadow handling code for free
[16:03] <tyhicks> mterry: it'd be easy to get right between review from myself, sarnold, and slan gasek
[16:03] <mterry> tyhicks, so we use the pam API in unity8 (can that set a different repository via the C API? -- presumably, if passwd can) and we ask AS to set the password for us in System Settings (so we'd have to patch it too to understand the new place... and when to use it over the normal shadow file)
[16:05] <tyhicks> mterry: is AS still needed?
[16:05] <mterry> tyhicks, AS is used today to proxy requests to set the password, since you need root to do that...  for some reason.  It does something during that process that needs root...
[16:06] <tyhicks> ok
[16:06] <mterry> tyhicks, oh to delete the password I think?
[16:06] <tyhicks> oh, maybe
[16:06] <mterry> tyhicks, because one of our options is to use swipe which is no-password
[16:06] <tyhicks> mterry: interesting :)
[16:07] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: I read that oxygen does not work with multirom
[16:07] <tyhicks> mterry: this might be a crazy idea but I think it is worth considering so that we reuse everything that PAM already provides - someone down the road might require that we limit lock screen password guesses, they may want to store the lock screen in ldap, etc.
[16:08] <tyhicks> s/store the lock screen in ldap/store the lock screen password in ldap/
[16:08] <mterry> tyhicks, I'm on board with re-using PAM -- my existing solution was already going to be a PAM module (just with AS as data storage)
[16:08] <mterry> tyhicks, but yeah if a separate repository is easier, that's good
[16:09] <tyhicks> mterry: it still needs a bit more investigation to see how feasible it is
[16:09] <mterry> tyhicks, yah I'll look into how much change it would be, but I bet it's easier than maintaining a new module
[16:10] <mterry> tyhicks, and probably just as much config changes around the place as a new module would be anyway
[16:11] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: what Roms that support the functionality?
[16:11] <tyhicks> mterry: that's true
[16:11] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: Cyanogenmod
[16:11] <JHOSMAN> If necessary I can change OxygenOS other.
[16:11] <JHOSMAN> I see forums of OnePlus whit CM
[16:12] <JHOSMAN> But if I consider important to put what we find today with the mobile and the official version of OnePlus (OxygenOS)
[16:12] <JHOSMAN> in the wiki documentation
[16:16] <JHOSMAN> CM12 or CM13?
[16:17] <simox> hello
[16:18] <simox> can i make a question here about ubuntu-phone?
[16:20] <lotuspsychje> simox: yes
[16:21] <simox> thanks
[16:22] <simox> i am experiecing problems while i try to download files from gmail..
[16:22] <simox> usually with .doc file..
[16:23] <simox> they won't be automaticaly loaded by document viewer..
[16:25] <simox> do you have the same issues?
[16:26] <lotuspsychje> simox: i dont think document viewer can handle .doc files yet
[16:29] <simox> are you sure? it did open some documents under libreoffice for me but only those already saved to my SD..
[16:30] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: cm12
[16:31] <simox> i think there must be a gap between webbrower-app and document viewer... docs must be downloaded before the program tries to open them
[16:36] <tyhicks> mterry: I think we're out of luck with that idea because the -r option isn't what we thought it was
[16:42] <tyhicks> mterry: I don't see a way to specify a different shadowdb in the shadow tools, pam (except for pam_extrausers), or glibc
[16:50] <mterry> tyhicks, bummer
[16:53] <mterry> tyhicks, ok so that leaves us with full-PAM (new module, with custom storage locale, and either separate metadata in AS or via prompt) *or* semi-PAM (new module, storage in AS with bundled metadata, but easy to brute force for unconfined apps)
[17:03] <tyhicks> mterry: that's how I see the situation, as well
[17:07] <mterry> tyhicks, I'll send out an email with the two options for discussion
[17:07] <mterry> tyhicks, not blocking me yet (still need pam module for both)
[17:08] <tyhicks> mterry: ok, thanks
[17:16] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: thanks!
[18:02] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: I now install CM12 :D
[18:09] <dobey> wow
[18:21] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: Did you get multirom working now? :)
[18:22] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: i m install Android applications, please wait me! :P
[18:22] <mariogrip> ok :)
[18:34] <JHOSMAN> and i need root my device :P
[18:53] <JHOSMAN> im now installing UT  :)
[18:57] <JHOSMAN> mariogrip: Installing Ubuntu has ended, but not Ubuntu starts.
[19:02] <JHOSMAN> All oka! :D
[19:02] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: does it work? :)
[19:02] <JHOSMAN> yes
[19:02] <JHOSMAN> now!
[19:02] <mariogrip> Yeey :D
[19:04] <JHOSMAN> and the desktop?
[19:07] <mariogrip> JHOSMAN: do you mean desktop mode?
[19:08] <JHOSMAN> i cant login in Telegram App, "PHONE_PASSWORD_PROTECTED"
[19:11] <mariogrip> maybe because of  2 step auth activated on your telegram account
[19:11] <JHOSMAN> yes im 2 steeps verification
[19:12] <JHOSMAN> I told you not me the wallpaper on the phone, only with all applications launcher.
[19:13] <dobey> yes, you can't change the wallpaper in the scopes
[19:14] <mariogrip> and i guess 2 set auth is not supported yet in the telegram client
[19:14] <mariogrip> 2 step auth**
[19:16] <dobey> that i don't know
[19:16] <JHOSMAN> ok
[19:17] <JHOSMAN> I think today's exercise helped identify that Ubuntu Touch is not compatible with OxygenOS. And also we learned the steps to recover the kernel.
[19:19] <mariogrip> :)
[19:19] <mariogrip> it's more that multirom (more the AK kernel that It uses) is not compatible with OxygenOS
[19:21] <JHOSMAN> As I can take a screenshot?
[19:22] <dobey> press vol up/dn at same time
[19:23] <JHOSMAN> The phone is heating up.