[00:59] <mterry> Saviq, I realize my previous messages might have gotten lost in an IRC timeout of mine.  If so, lp:~mterry/mir/no-initial-display-configuration-sent-to-hosting-server-merged
[00:59] <Saviq> mterry, yeah, I'm afraid they did
[00:59] <mterry> Saviq, bummer  :)
[00:59] <mterry> Saviq, basically just that merge is all
[01:00] <Saviq> mterry, make MP please
[01:00] <mterry> Saviq, oh right
[01:00] <mterry> Saviq, https://code.launchpad.net/~mterry/mir/no-initial-display-configuration-sent-to-hosting-server-merged/+merge/213751
[01:01] <Saviq> mterry, so that replaces all mir MPs?
[01:01] <mterry> Saviq, uh...  that replaces the other no-initial-display-configuration.  Let me look at list of others
[01:01] <Saviq> mterry, no, that's fine
[01:04] <Saviq> mterry, we need that against mir/devel
[01:04] <mterry> Saviq, ugh, mir branches are the worst
[01:04] <Saviq> ;)
[01:05] <mterry> Saviq, fixed
[01:06] <mterry> tedg, so if you missed it, I tested silo 004 with the very latest unity-greeter in trusty that fixes the dbus issue and it worked fine for me
[01:06] <mterry> tedg, so +1 from me
[01:06] <tedg> mterry, Cool, I got it reconfigured with your patch and I'm looking at it now.
[01:06] <tedg> mterry, It looks good, just checking on Unity 7.
[01:07] <mterry> tedg, that's where I did my testing, FYI.  I was having problems getting my split branches in order again, so I didn't test with those.  But unity7-greeter worked fine with it, and last time I tested your branches, it was with my split branches.  So I think it'll be fine
[01:07] <Saviq> mterry, ok, mir kicked
[01:08] <tedg> mterry, I think so too, just checking :-)
[01:08] <mterry> Same principle in unity7-greeter or unity8-greeter anyway
[01:35] <AskUbuntu> what cd burn lib for app development libburn | http://askubuntu.com/q/442174
[04:52] <Mirv> mardy: when you're around, I'm testing the online accounts related patch to make sure it doesn't cause regressions, but it does not seem to affect my actual online accounts experience on desktop (cursor still not shown).
[04:53] <Mirv> I'm not sure if it makes sense to release the qtbase with that patch if it doesn't fix the issue, or if it's otherwise helpful patch too
[06:42] <dholbach> good morning
[06:48] <mardy> Mirv: it doesn't show the cursor even if you click on the login fields?
[06:50] <Mirv> mardy: no, at least not for me. testing welcome.
[06:50] <mardy> Mirv: I'll try in a minute
[06:51] <Mirv> apt-add-repository ppa:ci-train-ppa-service/landing-012
[08:01] <mardy> Mirv: I did "apt-get source qtbase-opensource-src", applied my patch, built it and install it, and it works
[08:01] <mardy> Mirv: are you sure you are using the newly built libQt5Widgets.so?
[08:12] <JamesTait> Good morning all; happy Reconciliation Day! :-D
[08:20] <Mirv> mardy: well I should be, I added the PPA on my machine. can you check the PPA instead?
[08:21] <Mirv> mardy: and https://launchpadlibrarian.net/171456246/qtbase-opensource-src_5.2.1%2Bdfsg-1ubuntu10_5.2.1%2Bdfsg-1ubuntu11.diff.gz is the debdiff
[08:23] <mardy> Mirv: qt5-beta2 PPA?
[08:24] <Mirv> mardy: no, the landing PPA https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/landing-012
[08:24] <Mirv> ie. that add-apt-repository line I posted
[08:24] <Mirv> you'd get  5.2.1+dfsg-1ubuntu11  from there
[08:25] <davidcalle> Hello #touch, I'm looking for someone with a device running a recent "new scopes" image and who would have five minutes to test a scope thing.
[08:47] <mardy> Mirv: I installed the package from the PPA, and it works
[08:47] <mardy> Mirv: you are testing it on the desktop, right?
[08:48] <Mirv> mardy: ok, please update the success report to the bug! :) yes, I tested on my desktop since I noticed the original bug report was from there.
[08:48] <Mirv> I've my device stuck running AP tests for the moment
[08:55] <Mirv> mardy: thanks! I'll try to get the AP suite run so that I can publish the update
[08:56] <Mirv> I had some weird problems but now I've tests running smooth lookingly again
[09:58] <ogra_> tvoss, i'm just going through all the upstart job overrides we ship in lxc-android-config, do we still need the ubuntu-location-service.override (which falls back to the fake provider)
[09:59] <tvoss> ogra_, I think we should keep in place for testing purposes.
[09:59] <ogra_> ok
[10:41] <MrSatoV> greetings everyone!
[10:42] <MrSatoV> I was just wondering what the best way was to stay up to date on development progress on the Nexus 10.
[10:43] <MrSatoV> I read a post somewhere that it was dropped, but the ubuntu site claims development is highly active.
[10:43] <MrSatoV> not sure what to believe
[10:44] <MrSatoV> Is everyone sleeping?
[10:56] <mpt> Are a phone’s hardware volume keys mapped to VOLUME_DOWN_KEY and VOLUME_UP_KEY like on a PC keyboard, or something else?
[12:36] <ikhthiandor> Hi all!
[12:36] <ikhthiandor> I have Nexus 7 wifi (2013) edition
[12:36] <ikhthiandor> which has codename flo
[12:36] <ikhthiandor> I'm trying the manual installation method
[12:37] <ogra_> the wiki is outdated regarding manual install, i dont think it works anymore
[12:37] <ogra_> use a normal install
[12:38] <ikhthiandor> ok
[12:38] <ikhthiandor> btw can you tell why there isn't a .zip for "flo"
[12:38] <ikhthiandor> on this link
[12:38] <ikhthiandor> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-touch/daily-preinstalled/pending/
[12:38] <ikhthiandor> there is one for "grouper"
[12:38] <ikhthiandor> which is the N7 (2012 edition)
[12:39] <ogra_> thats an oversight, we didnt remove the zips yet
[12:39] <ogra_> with the switch to an AOSP base there are no zips produced anymore
[12:39] <ogra_> (AOSP doesnt support them)
[12:42] <ogra_> sergiusens, hey ... i remember you had the lxc-android-config package in your silo ... you can drop that, i pulled your media-hub override into the latest lxc-android-config release
[13:04] <jhodapp> ogra_: awesome, thanks for doing that
[13:46] <pmcgowan> Mirv, did you see the bug on V4 date stuff?
[13:48] <ikhthiandor> The normal install on "flo" is gonna take too long
[13:48] <ikhthiandor> is there a manual way to install
[13:48] <ikhthiandor> the speed I get is around 5-10 KBps :/
[13:49] <ikhthiandor> I've downloaded these .img files
[13:50] <ikhthiandor> and currently on the android bootloader screen
[13:50] <ikhthiandor> trusty-preinstalled-boot-armhf+flo.img
[13:50] <ikhthiandor> trusty-preinstalled-recovery-armel+flo.img
[13:50] <ikhthiandor> trusty-preinstalled-system-armel+flo.img
[13:50] <ikhthiandor> ..
[13:50] <ikhthiandor> what else do I need?
[13:51] <ikhthiandor> I got enough speed when I downloaded the .img files manually
[13:51] <ikhthiandor> but barely get any speed in the normal method
[13:51] <ikhthiandor> Is this a server issue?
[13:57] <ogra_> ikhthiandor, you can use rootstock-ng to install ... but the img files are not enough
[13:58] <ogra_> flash boot and recovery img's via fastboot and boot into recovery, then: bzr branch lp:project-rootsotck-ng ... cd project-rootstock-ng ... ./rootstock-touch-install /path/to/rootfs/tarball /path/to/system.img
[13:59] <ogra_> (i doubt that is any faster than upbuntu-device-flash though)
[13:59] <ogra_> *ubuntu
[14:12] <ikhthiandor> Is there any way to resume from where I left of with "ubuntu-device-flash"?
[14:20] <ogra_> ikhthiandor, it never downloads something twice ... not sure if it resumes half downloaded files though
[14:21] <ikhthiandor> in my experience it doesn't resume file downloads...starts fresh
[14:21] <ikhthiandor> but I wonder if there is a resume flag like
[14:22] <ikhthiandor> wget -c
[14:22] <ikhthiandor> or
[14:22] <ikhthiandor> youtube-dl -c
[14:22] <ogra_> check the help
[14:22]  * ogra_ doesnt know
[14:22] <popey> it's written in go, so I doubt it uses wget
[14:24] <ogra_> popey, no, but go might well have a resume feature :)
[14:24] <popey> doesnt look like it
[14:24] <ogra_> yeah, only the opposite :)
[14:24] <popey> "lol" http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21201808/how-to-download-a-file-with-resume-support
[14:25] <ogra_> "Cleans up cache with all downloaded bits"
[14:25] <MacSlow> Cimi, the wizard just doesn't run anymore on boot... not matter what I try...
[14:26] <MacSlow> Cimi, maybe you broke something with your last commit?
[14:26] <Cimi> MacSlow, was it running?
[14:26] <MacSlow> Cimi, I'm trying it from within the build-directory now
[14:26] <MacSlow> Cimi, no... I tried it several times... always getting right to the greeter-screen... no wizard at all
[14:27] <Cimi> MacSlow, so you might be missing the upstart file
[14:27] <MacSlow> I copied that for sure
[14:27] <Cimi> /usr/share/upstart/sessions/ubuntu-system-settings-wizard.conf
[14:27] <MacSlow> certainly there /usr/share/upstart/sessions/ubuntu-system-settings-wizard.conf
[14:27] <Cimi> MacSlow, did you install the deb_
[14:27] <Cimi> ?
[14:28] <Cimi> it has to run if it's installed
[14:28] <ogra_> use a whip
[14:28] <ogra_> :)
[14:42] <dbarth> ogra_: ping? videos play fine in that g+ app on my phone
[14:42] <ogra_> dbarth, youtube ?
[14:42] <ogra_> i cant get them to play still
[14:45] <dbarth> ogra_: googleplus
[14:45] <dbarth> youtube videos embedded in googleplus
[14:46] <ogra_> dbarth, right
[14:46] <ogra_> they play for me in the browser, but not in the G+ app
[14:47] <dbarth> ogra_: they play for me in the g+ app
[14:47] <ogra_> weird
[14:48] <dbarth> ogra_: running version '6' of the g+ webapp
[14:48] <ogra_> same here
[14:48] <ogra_> on image 274
[14:48] <dbarth> #272
[14:50] <ogra_> dbarth, hmm, interesting, it works on my flo, but not on the mako
[14:54] <dbarth> ogra_: ah
[14:54] <ogra_> dbarth, feel free to close the webapp part of the bug then, must be something on my device (though i wouldnt know what, thats my dogfooding device)
[14:54] <dbarth> ogra_: so that's HW related
[14:55] <ogra_> dbarth, on what device did you test ?
[14:55] <ogra_> i thought you use a mako
[14:56] <dbarth> ogra_: n4
[14:56] <ogra_> right, mako then
[14:56] <ogra_> dbarth, was that upgraded or freshly flashed ?
[14:57] <dbarth> ogra_: upgraded from #270 to #272
[14:57] <ogra_> (mine was originally installed in the 170s ... and since only upgraded)
[14:59] <dbarth> ogra_: can you comment on the bug
[15:00] <dbarth> ogra_: what do you think is the way forward here?
[15:00] <dbarth> ogra_: it sounds like it's below the container that the problem happens
[15:00] <ogra_> dbarth, close the webapp-container part for now
[15:00] <dbarth> either oxide or the media player
[15:00] <dbarth> ok
[15:00] <ogra_> i assume there is some user setting getting in the way if it works for you
[15:00] <ogra_> (and on the flo)
[15:01] <ogra_> i just cant remember ever tinkering with that phone
[15:02] <dbarth> ogra_: maybe that's me tinkering
[15:02] <dbarth> ogra_: i will reflash clean and see if that still works
[15:02] <ogra_> ok
[15:03] <ogra_> else just close the task, in case others see it too we can re-open
[15:03] <dbarth> jsut did
[15:03] <dbarth> i'm reflashing with #270 first
[15:08] <ogra_> dbarth, the player i see is the standard mediaplayer ?
[15:08]  * ogra_ is wondering why there is no fullscreen button
[15:11] <dbarth> ogra_: we can't do fullscreen right now, oxide does not support it yet
[15:14] <ogra_> oh, thats a matter of oxide ?
[15:14]  * ogra_ thought thats just a mediaplayer one
[15:18] <dbarth> ogra_: hmm, maybe you're right, i thought there was a bug on oxide for that, but can't find it
[15:18] <dbarth> ogra_: you on #274 btw? i'm just done reflashing and upgrading
[15:19] <pmcgowan> ogra_, dbarth there is some oxide issue where the video asks to play fullscreen for mobile, chris would know
[15:19] <dbarth> right, i thought there was something like a request and then handed over to the player
[15:23] <dbarth> ogra_: re-flashed and upgraded to #274 and videos play fine in g+ app
[15:23] <pmcgowan> davmor2, did you enter a bug for the click scope jumpiness? I did not
[15:23] <dbarth> which is kind of a cool change btw
[15:24] <dbarth> yeah for oxide! ;)
[15:24] <ogra_> dbarth, close the bug task then
[15:26] <popey> pmcgowan: jumpiness?
[15:26] <davmor2> pmcgowan: I did not but I can let me write it down so I don't forget it
[15:26] <pmcgowan> popey, yeah, flick up and down and it jumps to the top
[15:26] <popey> oh the frameskip?
[15:27] <popey> i think i filed one
[15:27] <popey> one mo
[15:27] <popey> bug 1297197
[15:27]  * davmor2 stops writing
[15:27] <popey> not my wording ☻
[15:28] <bfiller> mardy: testing sync stuff, after creating the google account I can no longer open the accounts page from system settings
[15:29] <bfiller> mardy: any idea how to debug?
[15:29] <pmcgowan> popey, yep thats the one
[15:30] <pmcgowan> bfiller, thats a long standing issue, as the framework is not handling one app starting another properly
[15:30] <pmcgowan> usually unity crashes
[15:30] <bfiller> pmcgowan: not sure if this is the same issue, I got to system settings and press accounts and nothing happens
[15:31] <pmcgowan> bfiller, I think thats it, cause its probably running but shell cant find it or something
[15:31] <AskUbuntu> Ubuntu for Xperia E C1505? | http://askubuntu.com/q/442454
[15:31] <pmcgowan> bfiller, I think if you close settings it might fix, but thats the syptom I remember
[15:32] <bfiller> pmcgowan: hmn ok. closing settings doesn't fix it
[15:32] <bfiller> pmcgowan: and it was working, just stopped after I added google account
[15:33] <pmcgowan> bfiller, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-system-settings-online-accounts/+bug/1269841 looks like it
[15:33] <popey> pmcgowan: bfiller bug
[15:33] <popey> dammit
[15:33] <popey> pmcgowan: bfiller bug 1287736
[15:34] <pmcgowan> the other one is similar
[15:34] <pmcgowan> cant start accounts again
[15:34] <popey> yeah
[15:34] <pmcgowan> anyway, then there is a bug on unity8 or mir somehwere thats the underlying issue
[15:35] <bfiller> pmcgowan: I'll read the bugs, we launch apps from apps all the time, not sure what's different about online accounts
[15:35] <popey> bfiller: being able to go back?
[15:36] <pmcgowan> bfiller, yeah, its different as its shown in the stack of settings
[15:36] <pmcgowan> not sure why its a separate process anyway
[15:37] <bfiller> popey: I can't launch accounts from settings anymore, stopped working
[15:37] <popey> yeah, i get that too
[15:37] <popey> it used to work
[15:37] <popey> long long ago
[15:37] <popey> ~24 Jan
[15:38] <pmcgowan> bfiller, need to reboot or restart unity
[15:38] <pmcgowan> I swear its always done this
[15:38] <sil2100> balloons: hi! We noticed some test flakyness in one of the terminal-app tests - test_terminal.TestMainWindow.test_control_panel failed once on smoketesting
[15:38] <pmcgowan> especially when settings starts oa which starts a browser
[15:39] <sil2100> balloons: I browsed through the code and didn't see any obvious bottlenecks
[15:41] <bfiller> pmcgowan: not sure why online accounts UI is it's own app, should just be a component I would think
[15:41] <pmcgowan> bfiller, I think I got an answer to that but forget why, mardy around?
[15:44] <bfiller> kenvandine: do you know where in the system-settings-ui code it tries to launch online-accounts UI?
[15:45] <Laney> The work is done in pageComponent() in uss-oa
[15:45] <kenvandine> online accounts is a system-settings plugin
[15:45] <Laney> From the perspective of system-settings it just pushes a page
[15:45] <pmcgowan> kenvandine, why does it run as a separate process?
[15:45] <pmcgowan> Laney,
[15:45] <Laney> but oa does some special stuff there to launch its own process
[15:45] <kenvandine> so it can be used outside of system settings
[15:45] <kenvandine> like if an app needs to auth
[15:45] <pmcgowan> yeah but there is a horrible bug there
[15:46] <kenvandine> or if an app wants to initiate adding an account
[15:46] <pmcgowan> both apps are in the scope, unity crashes, cant get back to OA, etc
[15:46] <kenvandine> ugh
[15:46] <kenvandine> so this is part of why we need the trusted sessions
[15:46] <Laney> It was a decision mardy made, can't really speak to it I'm afraid
[15:47] <kenvandine> so adding an account could be embedded with the app requesting it
[15:47] <kenvandine> or if it needs to be authenticated again, etc
[15:48] <pmcgowan> maybe Saviq knows the plan for app embedding, and how this is supposed to work with Online accounts
[15:48] <kenvandine> i don't think trust sessions are ready yet
[15:48] <Saviq> yeah, not yet
[15:48] <kenvandine> that will make the work flow much cleaner
[15:48] <kenvandine> however, it shouldn't crash the shell now
[15:49] <kenvandine> that's a regression then
[15:49] <pmcgowan> well, its always done that IMO
[15:49] <kenvandine> it worked before
[15:49] <pmcgowan> not really
[15:49] <kenvandine> it didn't crash though?
[15:49] <pmcgowan> I filed bugs last year on it, unless it got fixed in between
[15:49] <Saviq> pmcgowan, can you point me to the bug / steps to repro?
[15:49] <pmcgowan> yeah shell would crash, I crashe it today
[15:50] <pmcgowan> let me try again, thought this was a know thing
[15:50] <kenvandine> not that i've heard of
[15:50] <Saviq> pmcgowan, I couldn't ever reproduce
[15:50] <pmcgowan> I think you essentially just pick the OA from the apps scope and bam
[15:50] <kenvandine> pmcgowan, that shouldn't show up in the apps scope
[15:50] <Saviq> I don't have it in there...
[15:50] <kenvandine> well
[15:50] <kenvandine> unless it's running
[15:50] <Saviq> ah in that sense yeah
[15:51] <pmcgowan> need to reboot, settings wont display
[15:51] <kenvandine> but you could switch to it if it was
[15:51] <Saviq> pmcgowan, do you have the right edge yet?
[15:51] <Saviq> i.e. image 274
[15:51] <pmcgowan> I do thank you
[15:51]  * kenvandine loves that right edge :)
[15:52]  * sil2100 too
[15:53] <bfiller> pmcgowan: so my shell doesn't crash, just no display of online accounts
[15:54] <pmcgowan> bfiller, Saviq cant get the crash right off, got a black screen but it recovers
[15:54] <bfiller> pmcgowan: and if I run this: online-account-ui --desktop_file_hint=/usr/share/applications/online-accounts-ui.desktop it tries to launch then goes away
[15:54] <bfiller> kenvandine: how is system settings launching online accounts exactly?
[15:55] <kenvandine> it's just pushing a page
[15:55] <kenvandine> you should be able to run it that way
[15:55] <kenvandine> it's a plugin for system-settings
[15:55] <bfiller> kenvandine: can you point me at the code? maybe it needs to be doing upstart app launch?
[15:55] <stgraber> rsalveti: I just did the required code changes for generic_x86, I'll do a test publish now, hopefully everything will work fine
[15:55] <kenvandine> however, there is an API for loading it when needed outside of system-settings
[15:55] <Saviq> bfiller, you need to export MIR_SOCKET
[15:55] <Saviq> bfiller, check initctl --global get-env MIR_SOCKET
[15:56] <Saviq> bfiller, otherwise it tries to connect to the system compositor
[15:56] <pmcgowan> works flawlessly now, who knows
[15:56] <kenvandine> bfiller, i think it gets triggered with dbus when it's it's stared with the proper API
[15:56] <kenvandine> bfiller, there shouldn't ever be a reason to launch it yourself
[15:56] <Saviq> we probably should export MIR_SOCKET to the phablet session...
[15:56] <kenvandine> but an app can request it to add an account
[15:56] <kenvandine> etc
[15:56] <kenvandine> via a QML api
[15:57] <Saviq> bfiller, I think it exits on its own, not liking args or so
[15:58] <kenvandine> it won't draw anything to the screen unless it has a pending request
[15:58] <kenvandine> which i think makes the shell unhappy
[15:58] <kenvandine> but then again, it shouldn't be started unless something is driving it
[15:59] <bfiller> Saviq: doesn't seem to help
[16:00] <Saviq> bfiller, yeah, but the app just exits
[16:00] <bfiller> right
[16:00] <Saviq> bfiller, it's not expecting to be ran from console
[16:00] <bfiller> Saviq, kenvandine : so how do I debug it not starting from settings panel?
[16:00] <kenvandine> bfiller,  it won't do anything if it doesn't have anything to do :)
[16:00] <Saviq> bfiller, bug #1273781
[16:00] <kenvandine> bfiller, it isn't starting from the settings panel?
[16:00] <Saviq> bfiller, I just commented on it
[16:01] <bfiller> kenvandine: nope, that's the issue
[16:01] <Saviq> bfiller, mzanetti is on it
[16:01] <Saviq> bfiller, kill it
[16:01] <bfiller> let me check that bug
[16:01] <kenvandine> oh... i hadn't seen that bug
[16:01] <Saviq> bfiller, kill the online accounts process
[16:01] <Saviq> bfiller, it will launch then
[16:01] <bfiller> Saviq: nice, that did it
[16:02] <kenvandine> does anyone know if snap decisions will work on the desktop?
[16:02] <Saviq> kenvandine, under unity8 they will
[16:02]  * kenvandine assumes not...
[16:02] <kenvandine> ok... that'll make this a little harder :)
[16:03] <bfiller> Saviq: one way to fix would be to launch it via upstart?
[16:03] <kenvandine> Saviq, thx
[16:03] <stgraber> ogra_, rsalveti: generic_x86 added and initial import in progress, note that from now on, auto-imports from cdimage will probably take around twice as long as they used to since two rootfs will need to be imported, repacked and diffed every time
[16:03] <Saviq> bfiller, yes
[16:03] <ogra_> stgraber, bah, sigh
[16:04] <Saviq> bfiller, that would be ideal
[16:04] <bfiller> Saviq: should be a one liner - that's why I was inquiring about where the launching code is
[16:04] <stgraber> ogra_: not much we can do, twice the work means twice the time (will be slightly less than twice as we don't have nearly as many device tarballs to generate but those only take less than a minute each)
[16:05] <ogra_> yeah
[16:16] <stgraber> rsalveti, ogra_: initial import done, would be nice if you could test. If it all works fine, I'll renumber the build to match the other channels.
[16:17] <ogra_> stgraber, i have no clue how to even get an x86 emulator running
[16:17] <ogra_> and rsalveti is off this week
[16:19] <rsalveti> ogra_: stgraber: I can give it a try tomorrow
[16:20] <rsalveti> but thanks for getting it done
[16:20] <rsalveti> will ping sergio to also update the ubuntu-emulator tools
[16:21] <rsalveti> cool, version 1
[16:21] <rsalveti> ogra_: stgraber: do we want to sync the numbers again?
[16:21] <ogra_> if we want to use it in testing we have to
[16:23] <stgraber> rsalveti: yeah, I'll sync the numbers once we know that things work
[16:23] <stgraber> that leaves me around 273 tries to get things right :)
[16:24] <rsalveti> :-)
[16:24] <ogra_> ugh, dont use them all :P
[16:25] <ogra_> G+ is so much more fun with the new browser and app !
[16:34] <mardy> bfiller, pmcgowan: online-accounts-ui is a D-Bus service; it's a separate process and not a plugin because it needs to run unconfined
[16:35] <mardy> bfiller: clicking on the System settings panel doesn't do anything if there's an OA window open; if there isn't one, it should work
[16:36] <bfiller> mardy: this bug is happening quite often https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-system-settings-online-accounts/+bug/1273781
[16:39] <mardy> Saviq: hi! about the bug above, you wrote "when you X an app not launched via upstart, the shell won't kill it"
[16:39] <mardy> Saviq: but the app still gets the window close event, doesn't it?
[16:40] <mardy> bfiller: can you reproduce that bug easily? Does it happen only with the long press, or even if you tap on the "back" button?
[16:41] <bfiller> mardy: I think both
[16:41] <mardy> bfiller: ah, I just read Selene's comment: it happens only with the long press
[16:41] <mardy> Saviq: ^ then I think the problem is that we don't get the window closed event (or maybe we are not handling it correctly)
[16:42]  * mardy needs to take care of crying babies
[16:42] <bfiller> mardy: it happens to me after I created the google account, can't remember if I pressed back or killed it
[17:08] <brendand> if i have an app with a .desktop file which i've installed using apt-get on my tablet, is there a way i can make the icon appear in a menu somewhere?
[17:08] <brendand> either on the side launcher or the home screen
[17:25] <ogra_> dbarth, hmm, http://paste.ubuntu.com/7195178/ ... thats what i get when clicking a video on my phone (from the googleplus app log)
[17:25] <ogra_> dbarth, is there anywhere rewriting of urls going on in oxide ?
[17:27] <dbarth> ogra_: not yet
[17:28] <dbarth> ogra_: that's /very/ interesting
[17:28] <dbarth> i wonder how you get that
[17:28] <ogra_> hmm, does my phone live in the future ?
[17:28] <ogra_> should i send you the code on it ? so you can save the work ? :)
[17:28] <dbarth> but clearly this is a reason for the video not to play as oxide currently does not have all of the navigation manageent features we had before
[17:29] <ogra_> well, it is just weird that it works in the browser ... its only the webapp that misbehaves
[17:29] <dbarth> ogra_: well, add to the bug at least and we can re-open the task i think
[17:29] <dbarth> ogra_: if you have a procedure to reproduce (without having to impersonate yourself on g+ that is)
[17:29] <ogra_> and only on that device ... which is actually the cleanest one i own :)
[17:32] <dbarth> ogra_: so maybe you have some user data which differ and trigger that https redirect or so
[17:32] <dbarth> anyway, i think that log is informative
[17:33] <ogra_> ok
[17:56] <pmcgowan> ogra_, still about?
[17:57] <pmcgowan> ogra_, why would my phone spontaneously reset the usb connection http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7195307/
[17:57] <ogra_> yup
[17:57] <ogra_> pmcgowan, hmm, it shouldn't, i removed all code that could
[17:57] <pmcgowan> I was typing on my laptop and the file dialog popped up
[17:58] <ogra_> out of power ?
[17:58] <pmcgowan> the phone had been sitting for some time without activity from me
[17:58] <pmcgowan> no its 95%
[17:58] <pmcgowan> charging from my laptop
[17:58] <ogra_> weird, that would be my only explanation
[17:58] <pmcgowan> maybe the laptop kicked the usb
[17:58] <ogra_> HW issue or power ...
[17:58] <ogra_> there is no code that can reset the USB port
[17:59] <pmcgowan> ogra_, ok will watch for it, maybe I hit the cord
[17:59] <ogra_> its all android only now ... and we dont offer any option to tinker with the android setting currently
[17:59] <ogra_> all the ubuntu side does is reading the android property
[18:00] <ogra_> (adbd or mtp-server could die, but neither of that would reset the USB on that level)
[18:25] <rickspencer3> kyleN, here's a potentially silly question
[18:25] <kyleN> ready ;)
[18:25] <rickspencer3> when I create a scope project, which file is the "project" file for QtCreator?
[18:26] <kyleN> CMakeLists.txt in the root dir I think
[18:26] <rickspencer3> I'll try that
[18:27] <kyleN> so you can open a scope branch in QtC by opening that file
[18:27] <kyleN> rickspencer3, check out http://developer.ubuntu.com/scopes/tutorials/scope-development-procedures/
[18:27] <rickspencer3> kyleN, yeah, it's just not working for me
[18:28]  * rickspencer3 reads
[18:33] <cwayne_> rickspencer3, there should be a .pro file i think
[18:33] <rickspencer3> thanks kyleN
[18:33] <kyleN> yw
[18:33] <rickspencer3> cwayne kyleN well, there were 2 things
[18:33] <rickspencer3> thing 1, I had to delete CMakeCache.txt
[18:34] <rickspencer3> thing 2, the drop down in the edit view was set to bookmarks
[18:34] <kyleN> not .pro I think. that is for qmake project files, this is cmake
[18:34] <rickspencer3> thanks, though, cwayne_
[18:34] <kyleN> ok, good to know
[18:35] <cwayne_> ah right
[18:38] <rickspencer3> kyleN, I also deleted a directory called CMakeFiles
[18:38] <rickspencer3> not sure that was absolutely necessary though
[18:38] <kyleN> rickspencer3, I am wondering whether you ran cmake in the source tree, which might create those
[18:39] <rickspencer3> kyleN, could be
[18:39] <kyleN> usually the build dir is a sibling, and you run cmake from there: cmake ../scopeIDR
[18:39] <rickspencer3> then I just mass bzr add and bzr push
[18:39] <kyleN> (if you run cmake manually of course, building from the sdk does it for you
[18:39] <kyleN> )
[18:39] <rickspencer3> so, I guess there was a lot of cruft in my dir from first attempts with the project
[18:39] <kyleN> sounds right
[18:39] <rickspencer3> kyleN, I always run cmake manually for this project
[18:40] <kyleN> prob should do it in different dir then
[18:40] <rickspencer3> I do cmake CMakeLists.txt && make && unity-scope-tool pathto.ini
[18:40] <kyleN> yup
[18:40] <kyleN> i do this:
[18:40] <kyleN> cd ..
[18:40] <kyleN> make build
[18:41] <kyleN> cmake ../scopedir && make && u-s-t/src/ini
[18:41] <kyleN>  forgot to cd into build
[18:41] <rickspencer3> arg
[18:41] <rickspencer3> scope tool puked
[18:41] <rickspencer3> Need to use QMirServerApplication
[18:41] <rickspencer3> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
[18:42] <rickspencer3> oh well
[18:42] <kyleN> (I haven't seen that one yet)
[18:42] <rickspencer3> kyleN, I did a dist-upgrade earlier today, and I just now installed the scope tool
[18:42] <kyleN> ah, i will wait then :)
[18:50] <mardy> tedg: with the new UI designs, has the HUD being killed or is it still accessible?
[18:50] <tedg> mardy, I haven't seen the new designs, but my understanding it is going to be more "context menu like"
[18:50] <tedg> mardy, Not sure what that means in detail though
[18:51] <tedg> mardy, We're providing the data in the backend, the unity8 guys get to display it ;-)
[18:51] <mardy> tedg: all I know is that the bottom edge is now for the app-developers, so I was wondering what this meant for the HUD
[18:52] <tedg> mardy, Oh, it's always been in the application, we just put the hud over that.
[18:52] <tedg> mardy, They look like they're in sync, but actually the app and shell are coordinating there.
[18:54] <kyleN> rickspencer3, opening from the cmakelists.txt alone does not actually work for me now. I also need to click the Configure Project button in the dialog that displays. (doing that creates a CmakeLists.txt.user file) I'll update that portal doc to mention that too.
[18:54] <rickspencer3> thanks kyleN
[18:54] <kyleN> that's for a fresh branch that is not already a qtc proj
[18:55] <rickspencer3> though, I am dead in the water with bug #1301547
[19:11] <pulu90> hmm, am I the only one whose nexus 7 kinda died after some upgrades today?
[19:11] <pulu90> hangs on bootloader
[19:11] <pulu90> I even reflashed, instelled upgrades and now its dead again
[19:40] <mterry> Is anyone else having their device's wifi stop working after a while?  Only a re-flash seems to fix it for me
[19:42] <mterry> (this is mako btw)
[19:48] <qtros> Hi all!
[19:49] <qtros> Can someone help me with testing of my Twitter client for Ubuntu Phone?
[20:15] <cwayne_> lool,ping
[21:08] <lool> cwayne_: pong
[21:10] <lool> but about to go to bed
[21:10] <cwayne_> lool, ah sorry, no worries, ssweeny's already sent an email about what i was gonna ask anyway :)
[21:12] <lool> cool
[21:12]  * lool => &
[21:15] <mterry> kgunn / Saviq: can one of you rekick mir (adding lp:~mterry/mir/missing-links), unity8, and remove indicator-sound from silo 002?
[21:15] <mterry> Should also be able to remove ~robertcarr/mir/remove-ensure-display-powered
[21:16] <Saviq> mterry, on it
[21:16]  * mterry hugs Saviq
[21:18] <kgunn> mterry: am highly interested in your results on this one...
[21:18] <kgunn> wondering if we might be able to promote mir-devel (tip)
[21:19] <Saviq> mterry, just a mir rebuild?
[21:19] <kgunn> i'll watch too...but ping me when you see packages
[21:19] <Saviq> https://ci-train.ubuntu.com/job/landing-002-1-build/21/console
[21:20] <mterry> Saviq, Mir rebuild with that missing-links branch.  Unity8 needs a rebuild too
[21:20] <mterry> Had to merge from trunk there
[21:20] <Saviq> right
[21:20] <Saviq> will kick that when mir builds
[21:20] <Saviq> or starts building, actually
[21:20] <mterry> They shouldn't need to be coordinated but doesn't hurt
[21:22] <Saviq> mterry, well, I kicked the mir job already, can't run more than one concurrently
[21:22] <Saviq> mterry, not that it matters much


[14:08] <doko> rsalveti, janimo, ogra_ : bug 791256 ... somebody needs to attach all the object files and libs, like in bug 641126
[14:08] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 791256 in binutils "qt4-x11 version 4:4.7.3-1ubuntu1 failed to build on armel: assertion fail ../../bfd/elf32-arm.c:12008" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791256
[14:08] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 641126 in insighttoolkit "unresolvable R_ARM_THM_CALL relocation" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/641126
[16:38] <MrCurious_> anyone know if raspberry Pi is arm8 or arm9?
[16:51] <GrueMaster> Very odd.  I am trying to update an SD on a panda that uses a usb drive for root (so mmcblk0 is not mounted), yet the system has issues when I swap SD cards.  Inserting a different SD gives me a "can't read superblock" error.
[16:52] <GrueMaster> dmesg is full of "error - 110" messages.
[16:54] <GrueMaster> partprobe fails as well.
[17:37] <ogra_> GrueMaster, i would guess it was still mounted at removal
[17:37] <GrueMaster> No, it isn't.
[17:37] <ogra_> not now, no
[17:38] <GrueMaster> I have been hitting this for a little while, thinking the same thing.  I have checked and rechecked.
[17:38] <ogra_> if flash-kernel was just fiddling with it or if there was a dangling mount that could happen
[17:38] <GrueMaster> For some reason, the kernel isn't updating the partition table cache.
[17:38] <ogra_> i think we had an open bug about dangling mounts in flash-kernel
[17:39] <GrueMaster> I have tried it on a system that was sitting idle for over the weekend, after making sure SD wasn't mounted.
[17:39] <GrueMaster> It is not a flash-kernel issue.
[17:39] <ogra_> try blockdev
[17:39] <ogra_> blockdev --rereadpt
[17:39] <ogra_> that operates closer to the kernel afaik
[17:40] <ogra_> alternatively you should be able to unbind the device
[17:40] <ogra_> thats like a forced SW unplug
[17:54] <GrueMaster> Nope, just tried.  I/O error.
[17:56] <GrueMaster> Not really sure if it is a kernel bug or a u-boot bug.
[17:56] <GrueMaster> As I see the same issue when doing netinstall over PXE boot (only using MLO/U-boot.bin on SD.
[17:57] <GrueMaster> And I can not figure out how to get iscsi rootfs to work.  That was the main purpose of this exercise.


[06:42] <mantiena> hi all
[06:47] <joneal> hey
[12:18] <madduck><EMAIL_ADDRESS>doesn't seem to be a valid email address.
[12:18] <madduck> sure it is.
[12:18] <madduck> and it's the one i want to use to subscribe to the mailing list
[12:18]  * madduck hopes this can be fixed quickly...
[12:42] <_Andrew> Can anyone walk me through the process of pushing my bzr branch to launchpad
[12:43] <_Andrew> I created my project already but I'm having trouble with the ssh part
[12:45] <stdin> have you added your ssh key to your account?
[12:50] <_Andrew> I can't find how to do that
[12:51] <stdin> have you created a key yet on your system?
[12:51] <_Andrew> yes
[12:51] <_Andrew> I created a pgp and uploaded it to launchpad
[12:52] <stdin> no, a ssh key
[12:52] <_Andrew> oh
[12:52] <stdin> you use the "ssh-keygen" to make it
[12:52] <_Andrew> ok thanks
[12:52] <madduck> maybe understanding ssh keys would be a good idea first?
[12:54] <stdin> finally, _Andrew I found the guide :p https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair
[12:54] <stdin> that'll guide you right through it
[12:54] <_Andrew> madduck, so you mean I'm stupid or something?
[12:54] <_Andrew> thanks, statik
[12:54] <_Andrew> eh.. stdin
[12:56] <stdin> _Andrew: I'm sure he just wanted to make sure you understand what a ssh key is and what it's used for, which that guide explains also
[12:58] <_Andrew> I know what it's for, but I couldn't find the guide. Thanks stdin. One last question, this is going to be the project's branch which I want everyone to contribute to so do I need to do something specific?
[12:59] <stdin> _Andrew: not really, everyone can branch a branch. so you can just act as if it's the master. just make sure you set it to be a hosted branch and it should be fine
[12:59] <stdin> then you can push up to the "master" and everyone can pull from that
[13:01] <madduck> _Andrew: no, I wasn't assuming that. I am just not much in favour of telling people what to do; instead, I like to tell them what they're trying to achieve and showing them in the right direction.
[13:01] <_Andrew> I think I get it, i'm kinda new to bzr, normally I use svn so I don't really understand the concept that well..
[13:01] <madduck> anyway, no offence intended...
[13:11] <_Andrew> Sorry if I'm abit pissed, I just don't like sarcastic comments when i'm trying contribute code.
[13:14] <_Andrew> ok, the ssh key is done and I want launchpad to be the primary location to host our code, i'm reading the related page but I don't see anything about setting it to be a hosted branch? Does that come after I push to code to launchpad?
[13:15] <wgrant> _Andrew: Pushed branches are implicitly hosted.
[13:15] <_Andrew> ok, awesome and is there some kind of naming convention for the master branch or should I just call the branch andrew?
[13:16] <wgrant> It would generally be main or trunk.
[13:16] <_Andrew> super
[13:19] <_Andrew> https://help.launchpad.net/CreatingAHostedBranch
[13:19] <_Andrew> I'm looking at that page, for registrant i'm unsure what to put there
[13:20] <_Andrew> For reference the project is here: https://code.launchpad.net/hardwar/
[13:20] <wgrant> The registrant controls the permissions.
[13:20] <wgrant> If you have a team of developers, the registrant should be that team.
[13:20] <_Andrew> So would that be a group name?
[13:20] <wgrant> If not, the registrant should be yourself.
[13:20] <_Andrew> ok, so I need to create a team?
[13:20] <_Andrew> in case I want to add people in the future?
[13:20] <wgrant> If you don't have multiple developers now there is no point.
[13:20] <wgrant> You can easily move the branch in future.
[13:22] <_Andrew> I have someone else on this project so i'm thinking a team would be the best bet
[13:23] <_Andrew> We have artwork for this project too which is going to need collaboration, do you suggest another branch just for the artwork?
[13:31] <_Andrew> ok, I got it now, thank you very much for all your help. I think I can do it from here.
[13:55] <qense> is there a way to remove a project or mark it as inactive?
[13:57] <stdin> file a request here: https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad
[13:57] <qense> thx
[13:57] <qense> and can you remove teams?
[14:00] <stdin> the admins can do anything ;) just file the request
[14:02] <qense> thanks again :)
[15:07] <_Andrew> um..
[15:08] <_Andrew> https://launchpad.net/hardwar/ .. I uploaded the code but on the overview it says "Doesn’t use Code" ?
[15:11] <stdin> _Andrew: click "Change Details" and select the "Code for this project is published in Bazaar branches on Launchpad" option
[15:11] <stdin> you branch is shown though https://code.edge.launchpad.net/hardwar/
[15:13] <_Andrew> You mean that's where I can view it or do you mean i've done it wrong?
[15:14] <stdin> that's the place that lists all the registered branches
[15:15] <_Andrew> ok
[15:15] <_Andrew> done, thanks again
[17:50] <nizarus> is any one here ?
[18:32] <mantiena> nizarus: yes ;)
[18:34] <nizarus> hi mantiena
[18:34] <nizarus> there is no activity here
[18:34] <nizarus> i was here last night and today
[18:35] <nizarus> and no one responds to my question
[18:36] <mantiena> nizarus: it seems you forgot, that now is weekend and also mothers day ...
[18:37] <mantiena> nizarus: you should wait or ask in launchpad answers
[18:37] <nizarus> i know that it is WE
[18:38] <nizarus> with ubuntu I'm more active in WE's
[18:38] <nizarus> because in the week I have my work :)
[18:38] <LaserJock> nizarus: it might help to ask your question though :-)
[18:39] <nizarus> but no problem I asked my question in launchpad
[18:39] <nizarus> and I'm waiting
[18:39] <LaserJock> k
[18:39] <LaserJock> if it's something simple we might be able to answer
[18:39] <Tooba1> hello.I know the answer to this question: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/28226, but I can't understand how to post it
[18:39] <Tooba1> (I'm logged in)
[18:40] <nizarus> ah ok, this is my question : https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/31903
[18:40] <Tooba1> any help?
[18:41] <LaserJock> Tooba1: hmm, tricky
[18:41] <LaserJock> I'm not a LP Answers expert
[18:41] <LaserJock> but the problem is that the question has expired
[18:41] <Tooba1> the funny thing is that I am able to modify it! (to try, I just inserted a newline, and it's there)
[18:42] <LaserJock> yeah
[18:42] <LaserJock> I'd use that
[18:43] <nizarus> LaserJock, have you see my question ?
[18:43] <LaserJock> nizarus: to add a poll you need to be a team admin or owner
[18:43] <nizarus> i'am a new team admin :)
[18:44] <LaserJock> k
[18:44] <nizarus> and i'm descovering launchpad
[18:44] <LaserJock> so do you see the poll item on the left hand menu?
[18:44] <Tooba1> bye, thanks
[18:44] <nizarus> yes LaserJock
[18:45] <LaserJock> nizarus: "create a poll"
[18:45] <nizarus> but is there a particular syntax or some thing like that to make polls
[18:46] <LaserJock> I don't think so
[18:46] <LaserJock> it's been some time since I set up a poll
[18:47] <nizarus> LaserJock, i'm in the page to make new poll
[18:47] <nizarus> in the zone "The proposition that is going to be voted"
[18:48] <LaserJock> k
[18:48] <nizarus> i have to specify items or some thing like that ??
[18:49] <LaserJock> it's what you are voting on
[18:49] <LaserJock> so some proposal or person or something
[18:50] <nizarus> just a simple presentation text ?
[18:50] <nizarus> what about choices for the poll ?
[18:51] <LaserJock> I think it's just a binary yes/no
[18:57] <nizarus> thank you LaserJock
[18:58] <mantiena> doko: hi
[18:58] <qense> Should rubyforge be supported by malone?
[19:38] <gmb> qense: Rubyforge is semi-supported by malone.
[19:38] <gmb> qense: You can add bug watches against it.
[19:38] <gmb> But at the moment the statuses aren't imported.
[19:38] <qense> there was a bug report in alexandria where I tried to add a bug watch to
[19:38] <qense> it failed
[19:39] <qense> and the url wasn't right
[19:39] <qense> everything after the first & was forgotten
[19:39] <qense> so rubyforge showed a 404 when you clicked the link
[19:39] <gmb> qense: Right. That's because at the moment malone is trying to treat it like a SourceForge bug.
[19:39] <gmb> Which it shouldn't do.
[19:39] <qense> ok
[19:39] <gmb> See bug 226575
[19:39] <qense> but wasn't gforge already supported after the last update?
[19:40] <gmb> qense: Bug watches against it were, in that you can say "This is bug #n on XForge."
[19:40] <gmb> But status imports weren't.
[19:40] <gmb> The idea is that we'll use the GForge SOAP API for those.
[19:40] <qense> ok
[19:40] <gmb> But the code we had already was for SourceForge which, as you can see, isn't compatible with GForge, unfortunately.
[19:42] <gmb> qense: However, there's a second bug here that you've just highlighted, which is that LP isn't giving you the correct bug URL in the bug watch. The two are related, but distinct. I'll file a bug about that now.
[19:42] <gmb> Thanks ;)
[19:43] <qense> np, thank you for helping me out
[19:46] <gmb> qense: Filed as bug 226596.
[19:46] <qense> ok
[19:52] <ianrc> hello, is there any way to delete a group i created which does not have any projects or active members?
[19:52] <qense> you should create a question at https://anwsers.launchpad.net/launchpad
[19:52] <qense> an admin will help you
[19:53] <ianrc> thank you
[19:53] <qense> oh, wrong spelled url
[19:53] <qense> https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad
[19:54] <qense> that's the one you should use


[12:09] <mdke_laptop> evenin'all
[01:53] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[01:53] <mdke_laptop> not much of a sleep Burgundavia
[01:58] <Burgundavia> I got 9 hours
[01:58] <Burgundavia> from sorry 7
[01:58] <Burgundavia> from 9am to 4pm local
[01:58] <mdke_laptop> LOL
[01:58] <mdke_laptop> crazy
[01:58] <Burgundavia> got the cool new theme?
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> huh?
[01:59] <Burgundavia> do you run hoary?
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> yes
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> is the human theme changed?
[01:59] <Burgundavia> have you updated today?
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> yes
[01:59] <Burgundavia> yes, the progress bars are now brown and other cool things
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> yes i thought i noticed a difference
[01:59] <mdke_laptop> kewl
[01:59] <Burgundavia> I like it
[02:00] <Burgundavia> should we both with new screenshots?
[02:00] <mdke_laptop> ?
[02:00] <Burgundavia> things now look different
[02:00] <mdke_laptop> right
[02:01] <Burgundavia> I think we can simply leave it
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> oh
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> you mean bother
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> gotcha now
[02:01] <Burgundavia> oh
[02:01] <Burgundavia> yet
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> nah its cool to leave i think
[02:01] <Burgundavia> s/yet/yes
[02:01] <mdke_laptop> lol
[02:01] <Burgundavia> my typing tends to suck
[02:02] <Burgundavia> why are you all trying to take care of me
[02:02] <mdke_laptop> sorry
[02:02] <Burgundavia> I am 22 dammit
[02:02] <mdke_laptop> its in my own interests
[02:02] <mdke_laptop> 22 huh
[02:02] <mdke_laptop> i'm 23
[02:03] <mdke_laptop> anyhow no offence intended
[02:04] <Burgundavia> none taken
[02:04] <Burgundavia> it takes a long more than that to offend me
[02:05] <mdke_laptop> heh
[02:06] <Burgundavia> what I really like about the new theme is how warm everything became
[02:06] <Burgundavia> just a hint of brown in all the grey
[02:07] <mdke_laptop> haven't really noticed the difference yet
[02:07] <mdke_laptop> lemme restart some stuff
[02:07] <mdke_laptop> aha
[02:07] <mdke_laptop> that's better
[02:08] <mdke_laptop> its a bit bright
[02:08] <mdke_laptop> good tho
[02:11] <mdke_laptop> evolution looks great with it
[02:14] <mdke_laptop> ok sleep for me
[02:14] <mdke_laptop> nite
[02:14] <Burgundavia> cya
[07:14] <Burgundavia> hey
[09:55] <froud> Burgundavia: hi
[09:55] <froud> much better, now that we are discussing changes
[09:56] <abelli> mdke: /j irssi
[09:57] <Burgundavia> hey
[09:57] <froud> hey
[09:57] <froud> patches look much better too :-)
[09:58] <froud> nice small
[09:58] <froud> of course it's easier when you have access
[09:58] <froud> welcome
[09:59] <Burgundavia> Are you advocating calling them programs or apps?
[09:59] <froud> For GUI they are apps
[09:59] <froud> for DOS/SHELL they are programs
[09:59] <Burgundavia> but to a user that distinction doesn't exist
[10:00] <froud> Genral documentation style guides such as that of Sun
[10:00] <froud> use this distinction
[10:00] <Burgundavia> I am saying that almost all users (the great unwashed) use program
[10:00] <Burgundavia> that is our target audience, not power users
[10:01] <froud> Windows users call GUI apps Applications
[10:01] <Burgundavia> power users do
[10:01] <froud> Its a Windows app
[10:01] <froud> not a windows program
[10:01] <froud> its a DOS program
[10:01] <Burgundavia> from my time in the trenches of helpdesk, I heard the 2nd more often then not
[10:01] <froud> that is the generally accepted convention
[10:02] <Burgundavia> I understand the distinction myself, but I am saying that it doesn't exist in users minds
[10:02] <Burgundavia> non-power non-developer users
[10:02] <froud> Because histrorically there was a change in use of terms
[10:02] <froud> we should stay with the change
[10:02] <Burgundavia> but the change is to program
[10:03] <froud> All styleguides make this distinction
[10:03] <froud> no the change was from program to app
[10:03] <Burgundavia> what does not define a language in a style guide
[10:03] <Burgundavia> one defines it in the street, and that I what I hear
[10:03] <froud> when the windows world came the term program was replaced with application
[10:03] <froud> this is a question of style
[10:04] <froud> no authors use styleguides
[10:04] <froud> they are our standards
[10:05] <Burgundavia> maybe in developers minds, but not in users
[10:06] <froud> application program
[10:06] <froud>      n : a program that gives a computer instructions that provide
[10:06] <froud>          the user with tools to accomplish a task; "he has tried
[10:06] <froud>          several different word processing applications" [syn: application,
[10:06] <froud>           applications programme]
[10:06] <froud> The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP 03) [foldoc]
[10:06] <froud> application program
[10:06] <froud>
[10:07] <froud>         <programming, operating system> (Or "application", "app") A
[10:07] <froud>         complete, self-contained program that performs a specific
[10:07] <froud>         function directly for the user.  This is in contrast to system
[10:07] <froud>         software such as the operating system kernel, server
[10:07] <froud>         processes and libraries which exists to support application
[10:07] <froud>         programs.
[10:07] <froud>
[10:07] <froud>         Editors for various kinds of documents, spreadsheets, and
[10:07] <froud>         text formatters are common examples of applications.  Network
[10:07] <froud>         applications include clients such as those for FTP,
[10:07] <froud>         electronic mail, telnet and WWW.
[10:07] <froud>
[10:07] <froud>         The term is used fairly loosely, for instance, some might say
[10:07] <froud>         that a client and server together form a distributed
[10:07] <froud>         application, others might argue that editors and compilers
[10:08] <froud>         were not applications but tools for building applications.
[10:08] <froud>
[10:08] <froud>         One distinction between an application program and the
[10:08] <froud>         operating system is that applications always run in "user
[10:08] <froud>         mode" (or "non-privileged mode"), while operating systems and
[10:08] <Burgundavia> ok
[10:08] <froud>         related utilities may run in "supervisor mode" (or "privileged
[10:08] <froud>         mode").
[10:08] <Burgundavia> I understand what you are saying
[10:08] <froud>
[10:08] <froud>         The term may also be used to distinguish programs which
[10:08] <froud>         communicate via a graphical user interface from those which
[10:08] <froud>         are executed from the command line.
[10:08] <froud> Note
[10:08] <froud> The term may also be used to distinguish programs which
[10:08] <froud>         communicate via a graphical user interface from those which
[10:08] <froud>         are executed from the command line.
[10:08] <froud> not everything need be a debate
[10:08] <froud> :-)
[10:10] <Burgundavia> I am doing some digging on places like tucows and download.com
[10:10] <Burgundavia> I have come across 1 entry of app to for every 10-20 of program
[10:10] <froud> you dont give up do you
[10:10] <froud> even when present with std's
[10:11] <froud> do waht every you want
[10:11] <Burgundavia> standards reflect what people say
[10:11] <Burgundavia> I am tenancious
[10:12] <Burgundavia> I don't mean to offend. I am looking to create the best document possible
[10:12] <Burgundavia> that means easy to understand terminology
[10:13] <froud> adhere to std create consitant usage and avoid conflict and confusion
[10:13] <Burgundavia> This another street vs university thing
[10:13] <Burgundavia> I like standards, that reflect common usage
[10:14] <froud> and FOLDOC does not
[10:14] <froud> so why not just write using colloquial language?
[10:14] <froud> Like Howzit dude, hope you are bopping today.  Found Synaptic today, it toatally rocks
[10:15] <Burgundavia> there can be a happy medium
[10:15] <froud> where is the cut-off point
[10:15] <Burgundavia> I don't think I have explained myself correctly
[10:15] <Kinnison> Morning guys
[10:15] <Burgundavia> You can be simple and consise, using common english words, without descending into street language
[10:15] <froud> As authors of user manual there are known conventions we adhere to
[10:15] <froud> morn
[10:16] <Burgundavia> morn
[10:16] <Burgundavia> I am at it again
[10:16] <Burgundavia> stirring
[10:16] <froud> yet another hot debate for your entertainment
[10:16] <froud> well the let's put :-) ;-) :-/
[10:16] <froud> into the docs
[10:17] <froud> wow c flat
[10:17] <froud> what a note
[10:17] <Burgundavia> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=application&word2=program
[10:17] <Burgundavia> I mean that is non-serious sort of way
[10:18] <froud> oh please dude, because the majority of people don't know the diff and which is correct does not make it right
[10:18] <froud> and that thing is not based on any context
[10:19] <Burgundavia> or how about: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=application+kills+kittens&word2=program+kills+kittens
[10:19] <Burgundavia> I think it is funny, but no weight
[10:20] <Burgundavia> there is a distinction between a proscritive and a descriptive dictionary
[10:21] <Burgundavia> s/proscritive/proscriptive
[10:23] <Burgundavia> froud: I follow the will of the doc team. I am merely trying to raise points of debate, in the hopes of asking questions that might not have been asked before
[10:23] <Burgundavia> At no point am I trying to offend anything that has already been done
[10:24] <Burgundavia> make that anything that anybody has already done
[10:37] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: ping
[10:38] <c_> Burgundavia: any idea about htmlizing man pages?
[10:38] <Burgundavia> I have never done it, but I imagine there would be tools for it
[10:39] <c_> Burgundavia: yeah.. the problem is finding them:(
[10:40] <Burgundavia> c_: there is a program in universe called man2html
[10:40] <Burgundavia> it seems to generate them on the fly though
[10:41] <c_> ive installed it..
[10:41] <c_> but i can't find it..
[10:42] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: what do you want?
[10:42] <Burgundavia> well I drove froud out of the doc team
[10:43] <Burgundavia> http://linux.com.hk/PenguinWeb/manpages.jsp
[10:43] <Burgundavia> abelli: that will view fedora core 1 pages
[10:43] <abelli> i n33d the d4rm ion3 man...
[10:43] <abelli> :((
[10:43] <abelli> Burgundavia: however, many thanks
[10:44] <Burgundavia> I will keep looking
[10:44] <abelli> Kinnison: any idea?
[10:45] <Kinnison> abelli: about what?
[10:46] <abelli> htmlizing man pages.
[10:49] <abelli> ion3 man page
[10:55] <Kinnison> If you install the man2html package then zcat /usr/share/man/....ion3.?.gz | man2html > /tmp/ion3.html should do the trick
[10:55] <Kinnison> The hyperlinks will be a bit crud; but it should do the trick
[10:58] <abelli> Kinnison: unbelievable.
[10:58] <abelli> Kinnison: i owe you a pizza.
[10:58] <Burgundavia> did it work?
[10:59] <abelli> mmm
[10:59] <Burgundavia> nice
[10:59] <Burgundavia> have to remember that
[10:59] <abelli> dunno, but are you saying that the Master might be wrong?
[11:00] <Kinnison> Who is 'the Master' ?
[11:00] <abelli> you..
[11:00] <abelli> there's a problem..
[11:00] <abelli> ive installed man2html's package..
[11:00] <abelli> but it's not in PATH
[11:00] <abelli> and i can't find it
[11:01] <abelli> dohhh..
[11:01] <abelli> myfault.
[11:01] <Burgundavia> dpkg will tell you
[11:01] <Kinnison> It *ought* to be /usr/bin/man2html
[11:02] <abelli> dehiho it works
[11:04] <abelli> 1 pizza, 3 SAMUEL SMITH'S OLD BREWERY PALE ALE BEER
[11:05] <Kinnison> Gosh
[11:05] <Kinnison> You'd better bring it over; I need lunch
[11:08] <abelli> Kinnison: mm ill coming to london in the near future..
[11:08] <abelli> but not now, i'm sorry
[11:08] <Kinnison> abelli: Then when you do; we'll have to meet up and say "hi"
[11:08] <abelli> sure
[11:08] <abelli> mmm ill be telling u that far earlier ..
[11:09] <abelli> lib_malloc.so
[11:09] <abelli> what package are in ?
[11:11] <abelli> btw does someone here know what burning app is going to be "supported" and if so, is it for hoary or h+1?
[11:39] <Burgundavia> abelli: they are talking about gnomebaker and/or graveman
[11:40] <abelli> Burgundavia: i sincerely like graveman.. which one is winning?
[11:41] <Burgundavia> no idea
[11:41] <abelli> Burgundavia: thank you
[02:31] <ntoll> hi
[02:31] <Burgundavia> hey
[02:31] <ntoll> I just saw the comments about docs for windows migrators
[02:31] <Burgundavia> that would be me who made it
[02:32] <ntoll> on the ubuntu-users list
[02:32] <Burgundavia> the 2nd that is
[02:32] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: yep
[02:32] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: Dude; seriously; re-set your body clock
[02:32] <ntoll> yup, I recognise the name
[02:32] <Burgundavia> Kinnison: I have ;)
[02:32] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: to what timezone?
[02:32] <Burgundavia> no idea
[02:32] <Kinnison> tsk
[02:33] <ntoll> Burgundavia, where are you? New Zealand?
[02:33] <Burgundavia> Canada
[02:33] <Burgundavia> west coast
[02:33] <Burgundavia> 5:33am here
[02:33] <ntoll> Burgundavia, aha, that explains it... anyway....
[02:33] <Burgundavia> I gather you posted the initial stuff to the list?
[02:34] <Kinnison> reset it to :Canada/Pacific
[02:34] <ntoll> nope
[02:34] <Burgundavia> oh
[02:34] <ntoll> but I've done something similar for a lug I used to belong to
[02:34] <Burgundavia> right now string freeze is several days away
[02:34] <Burgundavia> a doc like that will have to miss Hoary
[02:34] <Burgundavia> but there is no reason why we couldn't do something on the web
[02:35] <ntoll> Burgundavia, I quite agree, some sort of wiki like collab tool
[02:35] <Burgundavia> unfortunately, the current ubuntu wiki "could use some work" to say
[02:35] <ntoll> anyway, I'd be interested in getting involved in helping to write the doc
[02:36] <Burgundavia> most of the pieces are already there
[02:36] <ntoll> for the doc or the wiki?
[02:36] <ntoll> Burgundavia, if the doc where can I find it?
[02:36] <Burgundavia> install the package quickguide to see our latest work
[02:36] <ntoll> aha
[02:36] <ntoll> brb telephone
[02:36] <Burgundavia> might be ubuntu-quickguide or something
[02:38] <ntoll> o.k. off the phone now....
[02:38] <ntoll> is it html?
[02:39] <Burgundavia> so primarly the docs are written in docbook, and parsed in yelp
[02:39] <ntoll> aha
[02:39] <Burgundavia> I am advocating moving to more web based system
[02:39] <Burgundavia> but a good wiki is needed
[02:40] <Burgundavia> so for the switchers doc
[02:40] <ntoll> I see
[02:40] <Burgundavia> we have an issue is that in some countries screenshots are copyright the program owner
[02:40] <Burgundavia> ie. m$
[02:41] <ntoll> hmph.... that sucks hard
[02:41] <Burgundavia> however, we may be able to get away with some sort of 2 screenshots combined together with text over top
[02:41] <Burgundavia> 1 from each system
[02:41] <Burgundavia> that would probably be considered a new work, and thus our copyright
[02:41] <ntoll> what about fair use clauses
[02:41] <Burgundavia> don't exist in some countries
[02:42] <egli> Burgundavia: why do you want to move away from docbook?
[02:42] <Burgundavia> like germany, if I remember correctly
[02:42] <Burgundavia> egli: faster changes, easier changes
[02:42] <ntoll> hmmm.... so how does everyone else get around it
[02:42] <ntoll> ?
[02:42] <Burgundavia> To the best of my knowledge, they just talk about it, without showing it
[02:43] <egli> Burgundavia: what about revision control
[02:43] <ntoll> I mean, any newspaper or magazine that publishes a screenshot
[02:43] <egli> what about generation of diffrerent output formats?
[02:43] <Burgundavia> egli: froud and I had a long discussion of this
[02:43] <Burgundavia> egli: He raised the same points
[02:43] <egli> froud = Sean
[02:43] <egli> ?
[02:43] <Burgundavia> yes
[02:43] <egli> oh
[02:43] <Burgundavia> they were good points
[02:44] <Burgundavia> I say ship PDF's for those who have internet access with HTML as well
[02:44] <Burgundavia> however, there is no good HTML to PDF renderer
[02:44] <ntoll> can you not just say  All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners.
[02:44] <ntoll> The rest  2005 Ubuntu document developers R' US?
[02:44] <egli> I like wikis but doku ought to be a little bit formal, i.e. svn + docbook ihmo
[02:44] <Burgundavia> egli: Honestly, why?
[02:45] <Burgundavia> ntoll: probably, but we would need to get a lawyer check on that
[02:45] <egli> i'd like to be able to trace revision history
[02:45] <egli> i like to add metadata (which I can do in docbook)
[02:45] <ntoll> Burgundavia, o.k. so how do I get involved?
[02:45] <Burgundavia> egli: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vancouver_International_Airport&curid=177015&diff=0&oldid=0
[02:45] <egli> pdf can easily be generated from docbook
[02:45] <Burgundavia> ntoll: here and on the mailing list ubuntu-dic
[02:46] <Burgundavia> s/ubuntu-dic/ubuntu-doc
[02:46] <enrico> Burgundavia: how come you hate DB so much?
[02:46] <Burgundavia> DB?
[02:46] <Burgundavia> docbook
[02:46] <enrico> DocBook
[02:46] <Burgundavia> I don't hate it
[02:46] <ntoll> dicbook :-p
[02:46] <Burgundavia> I just think that there are better ways of developing useful docs
[02:46] <enrico> Burgundavia: books?
[02:46] <Burgundavia> enrico: ?
[02:46] <egli> besides gnome is using db for their docu. I think sean had some scheme how this stuff could be reused
[02:47] <enrico> I mean, there's surely better ways to write tutorials or HOWTOs.  However, can you think of better ways to write books?
[02:47] <Burgundavia> so is TLDP, Sun, etc.
[02:47] <ntoll> have you guys seen silva? (http://www.infrae.com/products/silva) Might that be of use?
[02:47] <Burgundavia> but 95% of what users really need is HOWTOs
[02:47] <egli> Burgundavia: yes sure wiki has revisions but it's all web based
[02:47] <ntoll> a plone based doc store
[02:48] <Burgundavia> users need small bitsized chunks, right now
[02:48] <Burgundavia> mostly
[02:48] <Burgundavia> how do I check my email
[02:48] <Burgundavia> how do I install a new program
[02:48] <egli> ntoll: oh man not another weirdo solution when we have one that works
[02:48] <enrico> Burgundavia: so 95% of the work won't be in DocBook.  But the remaining 5%, it's got its use
[02:48] <enrico> I can't think about a work like the QuickGuide made with a different system
[02:49] <ntoll> egli, weido? :-) I was trying to find a happy medium for you two, web based yet exports to printable formats like pdf
[02:49] <Burgundavia> There is a reason most people link to ubuntuguide.org
[02:49] <enrico> (since its best use is to be printed in a booklet to be read by someone trying out the distro)
[02:49] <Burgundavia> because it is good
[02:49] <Burgundavia> enrico: for that we would need sometime really pamphlet sized, and yes something like that would go better not-webbased
[02:50] <Burgundavia> svn and docbook are very good at what they do
[02:50] <enrico> Ok, we agree then.  I was worried you were focusing on the medium more than the goal :)
[02:50] <Burgundavia> I just don't think that is where we should be focusing our energies
[02:51] <ntoll> ubuntuguide.org isn't working for me
[02:51] <ntoll> times out
[02:51] <Burgundavia> enrico: did you see my note about possibly using ubuntuguide.org?
[02:51] <Burgundavia> ntoll: same for me
[02:51] <enrico> Burgundavia: yes, but did you discuss it nicely with Chua?  It sounded aggressive to me
[02:52] <Burgundavia> I sent an email to him
[02:52] <Burgundavia> Hey,
[02:52] <Burgundavia> I really like all the stuff you have done with your page.
[02:52] <Burgundavia> I was wondering something. This is not official, but I had a thought
[02:52] <Burgundavia> regarding documentation. Your page is already well advertised, so I
[02:52] <Burgundavia> wondered if a wiki could be installed there, and we could move the
[02:52] <Burgundavia> offical docs over there.
[02:52] <Burgundavia> As I said, this is NOT official, just me putting feelers out.
[02:52] <Burgundavia> Thanks again,
[02:53] <Burgundavia> Corey
[02:53] <egli> oh my god, move the docu to a wiki
[02:53] <Burgundavia> ah yes
[02:53] <enrico> Ok.  Although it sounds a bit like "I'm considering moving in your apartment: what do you think?"   Ubuntuguide.org is how he supports free software in Malaysia (that, and ordering *5000* Ubuntu CDs to use in courses and stuff he does)
[02:54] <Burgundavia> it is also linked from the sidebar of the forums
[02:56] <Burgundavia> What I would really like to find a home for is all the unoffical stuff at the forums FAQ section
[02:56] <Burgundavia> so much of it is: install xmms|mplayer|etc. and everything will be better
[02:57] <egli> isn't there a faq section in the ubuntulinix wiki?
[02:57] <ntoll> egli, yes and it covers taht stuff
[02:57] <egli> so why a new home?
[02:57] <Burgundavia> I was doing some work on the wiki today
[02:57] <Burgundavia> The wiki currently hosts about a dozen different things
[02:57] <Burgundavia> dev chatter
[02:57] <Burgundavia> our docs
[02:57] <Burgundavia> our chatter
[02:58] <egli> that's what you get with wiki :-)
[02:58] <Burgundavia> without the tools to make it cohesive and organized
[02:58] <ntoll> hmmm... so some wiki consolidation is in order then?
[02:58] <Burgundavia> egli: no it is not
[02:58] <Burgundavia> plus having several types of markup
[02:58] <Burgundavia> one wiki for all docs, nothing else. One kind of markup
[02:58] <egli> so how do you envision these tools " to make it cohesive and organized"
[02:58] <Burgundavia> categories
[02:59] <Burgundavia> watchlists
[02:59] <Burgundavia> smaller wiki
[02:59] <Burgundavia> focused
[02:59] <Burgundavia> the only things that are going in are documentation
[02:59] <Burgundavia> makes it easier to manage
[02:59] <egli> ok
[02:59] <egli> would that imply another wiki engine than the one currently on ubuntulinux
[02:59] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mediawiki, but it is php
[03:00] <egli> smth like mediawiki
[03:00] <egli> php is a no-no?
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mediawiki is under the most active development
[03:00] <Burgundavia> mark shuttleworth doesn't like it, from what I have heard
[03:00] <egli> mediawiki has all the stuff you want|
[03:00] <Burgundavia> some of it
[03:00] <egli> you want more?
[03:00] <Burgundavia> categories of are nice
[03:01] <Burgundavia> some work could be on categories to allow you to sort them on the fly
[03:01] <egli> where you get the additional functionality?
[03:01] <Burgundavia> I will take the existing functionality, because it is better than the current wiki
[03:01] <Burgundavia> oh, and one markup language
[03:01] <Burgundavia> not 4
[03:02] <egli> ok one markup makes sense
[03:02] <egli> but wikipedia also has a huge community
[03:02] <Burgundavia> and then in the svn would be any docs we already have, plus things like marketing brochures
[03:02] <egli> with the community mediawiki works
[03:03] <Burgundavia> wikipedia currently has about 6 developers
[03:03] <egli> with just a small community svn + db might work better
[03:03] <egli> by community I mean the contributors of content
[03:03] <Burgundavia> but you would then miss the advantages of a wiki
[03:03] <Burgundavia> ah
[03:03] <egli> sure, yes
[03:04] <egli> but editorial control, consistence of wording etc
[03:04] <Burgundavia> writer says "user needs doc on installing blah" write blah publish blah
[03:04] <Burgundavia> time ~1 day at most
[03:04] <egli> wouldn't that be achieved better in db + svn
[03:04] <Burgundavia> egli: that can be achieved with a wiki
[03:04] <Burgundavia> remember that this wiki would only be docs
[03:04] <Burgundavia> so very low volume
[03:04] <egli> also because you have the entire content at your displosal, offline
[03:05] <Burgundavia> so one or two people could just check everything that goes in. IE, just be watching the pages after the edit happens, not before
[03:05] <Burgundavia> offline is the bigger issue
[03:05] <Burgundavia> that is why a good HTML to PDF thingy is needed
[03:05] <egli> how many pages do we talk about? does that scale?
[03:06] <Burgundavia> does a wiki scale?
[03:06] <Burgundavia> In this English version, started in 2001, we are currently working on 494009 articles.
[03:06] <egli> Burgundavia: you'll never get a good html to pdf thingy
[03:06] <Burgundavia> does a community scale? yes
[03:06] <egli> no I mean in ubuntu doc. how many pages
[03:07] <egli> maybe you could get a decent mediawiki markup to pdf thingy
[03:07] <Burgundavia> for the total amount? I have no idea
[03:07] <enrico> Burgundavia: so the problem you point at is not the domain name, but that the current wiki sucks
[03:07] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:07] <egli> scale in the sense of somebody whatchlisting all the pages
[03:07] <Burgundavia> ubuntuguide.org would be icing on the cake
[03:08] <Burgundavia> that depends on how many people edit
[03:08] <Burgundavia> I currently watch 819 pages in WP
[03:08] <Burgundavia> I get about 15~20 edits a day to review
[03:08] <Burgundavia> of which most are small
[03:09] <Burgundavia> there are some major techical hurdles to overcome become we could do this fully
[03:09] <Burgundavia> and svn/docbook would never go away
[03:10] <enrico> Burgundavia: that (making a new wiki) wouldn't be appreciated, though, because the company's policy is to try and fix what one has
[03:10] <enrico> So I suggest first to ask for the name of someone that takes care of improving/fixing the wiki
[03:10] <Burgundavia> enrico: But we are talked 2 different audiences here
[03:11] <Burgundavia> enrico: I have been doing some work and will continue to do so
[03:11] <Burgundavia> but changing the wiki fundamentally, which would be required, would require buyin from the entire wiki user community, and a lot of work
[03:11] <Burgundavia> plus the wiki doesn't do multi-lang very well
[03:12] <egli> you mean the current wiki?
[03:12] <enrico> Burgundavia: that's still "this wiki sucks, let's make a new one"
[03:12] <Burgundavia> The reason I want a seperate wiki is beyond this wiki sucks
[03:12] <enrico> I quite agree that this wiki needs improvements: I'm just telling you what I see as the best way for getting it in this context
[03:12] <Burgundavia> I want a seperate wiki because it is "world facing"
[03:13] <Burgundavia> we also need something for the devs to use
[03:13] <Burgundavia> and us to chatter amongst ourselves
[03:13] <Burgundavia> it is like have a workshop and a boardroom
[03:13] <Burgundavia> you don't generally mix them
[03:13] <enrico> Why is it bad to share the wiki with the devels?
[03:14] <Burgundavia> yes
[03:14] <Burgundavia> boardroom != workshop
[03:14] <enrico> That metaphore doesn't necessarily hold for the wikis
[03:14] <Burgundavia> sorry why
[03:14] <Burgundavia> we all need the wiki for different reasons
[03:15] <Burgundavia> Ours needs to look good, with a wiki language that allows a lot of presentation markup
[03:15] <enrico> but wikis work better when different communities coehist in the same wiki, as that allows creativity to happen also in the border cases
[03:15] <Burgundavia> theirs needs to be fast and easy, but doesn't need much presentation markup
[03:16] <enrico> Ours need to be fast and easy, too.  People weren't writing much in ReST: we moved to Moin just because of that
[03:16] <Burgundavia> But our Doc wiki is really only a wiki because that is easy. It is really nicely formated stuff that happens to exist there
[03:16] <enrico> our, which one?
[03:16] <Burgundavia> our "new" wiki for the public
[03:16] <enrico> our?
[03:17] <Burgundavia> The Doc Team wiki for putting docs up for the public to read
[03:17] <Burgundavia> which is mostly what it would be doing
[03:17] <enrico> Have you discussed that with someone from Canonical?
[03:17] <Burgundavia> no
[03:17] <Burgundavia> I have just being throwing ideas around right now
[03:17] <enrico> Thought so :)
[03:18] <Burgundavia> I wanted to get buyin from the doc team, so we could ask as the doc team
[03:18] <Burgundavia> or not get buyin, in which case I drop the idea
[03:18] <enrico> Burgundavia: we've had regular sessions of "wiki sucks, let's have a new one"
[03:18] <Burgundavia> but it has gone nowhere
[03:18] <Burgundavia> wiki still sucks
[03:19] <enrico> That's why what I suggest is to get the name of someone that maintains the wiki
[03:19] <Burgundavia> I have specifics that I would like to see changed
[03:19] <Burgundavia> I would happily work with them to get it done
[03:19] <enrico> Burgundavia: at the docteam meeting, let's ask for this name, and discuss your specifics
[03:19] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:20] <Burgundavia> I was kind of wait too
[03:20] <Burgundavia> but others brought it up, so I thought I would explain my ideas
[03:20] <Burgundavia> s/wait/waiting
[03:22] <enrico> It wouldn't be bad to put down, together with the others, a list of "why it sucks", "what it's blocking" and "what it would need"
[03:22] <enrico> Then post a URL to that during the meeting
[03:22] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:23] <Burgundavia> what about the list, just I list specifics there right now to generate input?
[03:23] <enrico> sure!
[03:23] <enrico> You could use a wiki page to collect input
[03:24] <Burgundavia> sending soon
[03:24] <Burgundavia> lol
[03:24] <enrico> I think those three points ("why it sucks", "what it's blocking" and "what it would need") are all quite important
[03:26] <Burgundavia> ok
[03:38] <Burgundavia> sent a note to the list
[03:38] <enrico> Burgundavia: cool!
[03:39] <Burgundavia> enrico: I still think a completely different wiki for presentation docs is vital
[04:43] <BuffaloSoldier> hello everyone
[04:44] <Burgundavia> hey
[04:46] <Burgundavia> what brings you to ubuntu-doc?
[04:47] <BuffaloSoldier> just checking out what are you guys up to
[04:47] <BuffaloSoldier> :)
[04:47] <Burgundavia> well
[04:47] <Burgundavia> the quickguide is coming along quite nicely
[04:48] <Burgundavia> you can grab it from the repos
[04:48] <Burgundavia> ubuntu-quickguide
[04:58] <Burgundavia> BuffaloSoldier: any other questions?
[04:59] <BuffaloSoldier> nothing so far :)
[05:00] <Burgundavia> if you have anything you think should be changed, email ubuntu-doc about it
[07:05] <mdke_laptop> hi :)
[07:08] <Burgundavia> hey
[07:15] <Burgundavia> anything new and interesting?
[07:16] <mdke_laptop> not from me
[07:16] <mdke_laptop> just got home from school
[07:16] <Burgundavia> did you see the post on the list about improving the wiki?
[07:17] <mdke_laptop> yeah but haven't looked properly yet
[07:17] <mdke_laptop> lemme check it out
[07:19] <mdke_laptop> i have like 20 to get through
[07:21] <mdke_laptop> ok read
[07:21] <mdke_laptop> Burgundavia, mostly good stuff
[07:21] <mdke_laptop> one thing concerns me
[07:21] <mdke_laptop> would it be difficult to export the current content to a new wiki?
[07:25] <Burgundavia> There really isn't that much in the current wiki that would really be necessary to move
[07:25] <Burgundavia> Remember, the wiki is only from docs
[07:25] <Burgundavia> nothing more
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> there is a lot of stuff in the wiki
[07:26] <Burgundavia> no dev chatter, none of that
[07:26] <Burgundavia> most of the stuff in the wiki is not docs
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> don't forget other language docs
[07:26] <Burgundavia> they can be moved if necessary
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> right
[07:26] <mdke_laptop> i'm on the italian list
[07:27] <mdke_laptop> we were intending to consolidate lots of docs in the wiki
[07:27] <Burgundavia> I would wait
[07:27] <Burgundavia> this Sat. is the big meeting
[07:27] <Burgundavia> doc meeting that is
[07:27] <mdke_laptop> yes
[07:37] <mdke_laptop> well at the moment there are lots of italian docs in the wiki, and some others on various other sites
[07:43] <Burgundavia> there are a number of scattered sites that have docs
[07:43] <Burgundavia> the most common on the english side is ubuntuguide.org
[07:45] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[07:45] <mdke_laptop> too much scatter
[07:45] <Burgundavia> if you make the wiki cross language and suppor that well, then more of this will come together
[07:45] <mdke_laptop> heh
[07:48] <Burgundavia> have you seen the multi-lang stuff at wp?
[07:49] <mdke_laptop> yes
[07:49] <Burgundavia> It could use some work in terms of visiblity, but the ideas are very sound
[07:50] <Burgundavia> the other issue with cross lang there is different layouts of the pedia
[08:02] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[08:02] <mdke_laptop> well if the content is easy to transfer I will continue trying to sort out the italian section
[08:05] <Burgundavia> continue to work on the existing stuff. I would just be hesitant about wholesale addition of new stuff
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> well its just copy and paste from other sites really
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> but it needs structural work as well
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> i'll do a bit
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> i'm still trying to get the hang of the politics in the italian team
[08:05] <mdke_laptop> ;)
[08:06] <Burgundavia> are you italian?
[08:06] <mdke_laptop> no
[08:06] <mdke_laptop> english
[08:07] <mdke_laptop> but i have lived in italy and wanna help out their team
[08:07] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:09] <mdke_laptop> i wanna steer clear of politics tho
[08:10] <Burgundavia> I agree
[08:11] <mdke_laptop> even in linux, it exists
[08:12] <mdke_laptop> my god these wiki languages are crazy
[08:12] <mdke_laptop> moinmoin is appalling
[08:13] <Burgundavia> it is
[08:13] <Burgundavia> another reason to move wikis
[08:14] <Burgundavia> I have to catch some sleep
[08:14] <Burgundavia> talk to you again soon
[09:40] <mdke_laptop> evening enrico
[09:40] <mdke_laptop> *_
[09:41] <enrico_> mdke_laptop: hi!
[09:41] <mdke_laptop> how goes it?
[09:42] <enrico_> mdke_laptop: about to dive deep into work
[09:42] <mdke_laptop> ok
[09:42] <mdke_laptop> tuffati pure
[09:42] <enrico_> :)
[09:42] <enrico_> I haven't done anything today (yet)
[09:42] <mdke_laptop> ouch
[09:42] <enrico_> and it's evening (which is bad)
[09:42] <mdke_laptop> 21.42
[09:43] <mdke_laptop> what did you do during the day?
[09:43] <enrico_> This morning I was called to talk in a high school about the new atypical jobs
[09:43] <enrico_> that is, the new kinds of fixed-term contracts one has nowadays
[09:43] <mdke_laptop> so you have done something today!
[09:43] <enrico_> that is, "please don't have any long-term plans in your life"
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> lol
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> there are jobs in italy?
[09:44] <enrico_> you need to teach high school students that they will need to fight for the bread, nowadays
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> :(
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> tell them to come to England
[09:44] <mdke_laptop> land of the plentiful
[09:45] <mdke_laptop> before we close our borders
[09:45] <enrico> England?  I recall that wasn't very nice-looking for job-seekers that would like to have a family
[09:46] <mdke_laptop> yeah i'm just kidding
[09:46] <enrico> lots of fixed-term, decaying social services, stuff like that
[09:46] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[09:46] <mdke_laptop> its not a great place actually
[09:46] <mdke_laptop> i want to move to italy
[09:46] <enrico> There are jobs in Italy, yes, if you'd like to be exploited
[09:47] <enrico> Try googling for "serpica naro" in English sites only
[09:47] <enrico> Like, in google news, or in The Guardian (hoping The Guardian covered it)
[09:47] <mdke_laptop> ok
[09:48] <enrico> nothing on the Guardian
[09:48] <mdke_laptop> why english only?
[09:49] <mdke_laptop> Chi e' la sconosciuta stilista giapponese Serpica Naro che chiude la settimana della moda milanese?
[09:49] <mdke_laptop> ""
[09:49] <enrico> Oh, RIGHT!  You know Italian
[09:49] <enrico> That's a funny story
[09:49] <mdke_laptop> lol
[09:50] <mdke_laptop> enrico, you have something I could do to help the docteam?
[09:51] <enrico> http://www.chainworkers.org/dev/#
[09:52] <enrico> We invented a saint to protect precarious workers (that is, all the fixed-terms and similar things)
[09:52] <mdke_laptop> you were involved?
[09:52] <enrico> No, but I do have the San Precario icon in my wallet :)
[09:52] <enrico> It's got a prayer as well
[09:52] <mdke_laptop> lol
[09:52] <mdke_laptop> brb
[09:54] <enrico> To help the docteam... what I see could be needed now is to hack a bit in the documentation of single applications
[09:54] <enrico> like, the things in /usr/share/doc
[09:54] <enrico> like, the things in /usr/share/doc/<package>
[09:54] <enrico> however, we don't have cool infrastructure to handle it atm
[09:55] <enrico> what's doable is having a read to the documentation of some app you know, and if it is lacking, apt-get source <packagename>, hack on it, then send a patch to the author
[09:55] <enrico> that's still a bit of a pioneer effort
[09:56] <enrico> saturday we'll discuss a bit of these things at the docteam meeting
[09:56] <mdke_laptop> i'll turn up
[09:56] <enrico> Or, wiki gardening
[09:56] <mdke_laptop> i like wiki gardening
[09:56] <mdke_laptop> is it helpful?
[09:56] <enrico> wiki gardening is always very needed
[09:56] <enrico> It's very helpful
[09:57] <mdke_laptop> do people still use wikis tho?
[09:57] <mdke_laptop> because ubuntuguide is really the bible for n00bs ;)
[09:57] <enrico> There are wiki pages that need some proofreading (maybe in light of new Hoary changes); some that need to be merged; some that need to be deleted altogether
[09:57] <mdke_laptop> i'd like to help if I can
[09:58] <mdke_laptop> can i delete the Docbook wiki now? I merged the content into DocBook
[09:58] <enrico> If you click on "wiki contents", you see an overview of everything in the wiki: there you can see if there are things misplaced or which have no sense anymore
[09:58] <mdke_laptop> hmm
[09:58] <mdke_laptop> ok
[09:59] <enrico> Yes, please delete it; but first, check the backlinks and fix the referring page to point to DocBook
[09:59] <mdke_laptop> have done
[09:59] <enrico> then by all means please delete it
[09:59] <mdke_laptop> corey is right tho, this wiki sucks
[09:59] <enrico> I like deleting pages from the wiki :)
[09:59] <enrico> Oh, it does!
[09:59] <mdke_laptop> its so annoying to have to keep logging in
[10:01] <mdke_laptop> damn cookies don't work
[10:02] <mdke_laptop> and the language... *shudders*
[10:03] <sivang> mdke_laptop: we have a docbook wiki? :)
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> two
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> now one
[10:04] <enrico> mdke_laptop: it's been agreed to use MoinMoin as the markup of choice
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> enrico, yeah it seems to be standard
[10:04] <enrico> mdke_laptop: (unless for some pages which are in ReST for some reason)
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> but its so disturbing i'm almost tempted to use html
[10:04] <enrico> mdke_laptop: however, MoinMoin is the markup of choice for the Docteam
[10:04] <mdke_laptop> ;p
[10:05] <mdke_laptop> enrico, i'm converting anything i see into MoinMoin
[10:05] <mdke_laptop> tranquillo
[10:05] <mdke_laptop> sivang, hi btw
[10:05] <mdke_laptop> i'm matt
[10:05] <enrico> mdke_laptop: meet sivang
[10:06] <enrico> sivang: meet mdke_laptop
[10:06] <mdke_laptop> the "matt" nick was taken i'm afraid
[10:07] <sivang> mdke_laptop: pleased to meet you mdke_laptop
[10:07] <mdke_laptop> lol
[10:07] <mdke_laptop> :)
[10:07] <sivang> enrico: hi enrico, what's up?
[10:07] <enrico> sivang: I was planning to dive deep into working
[10:07] <enrico> as usual, IRC isn't helping on that
[10:07] <sivang> (althought he get's addicted to bug squashing)
[10:08] <sivang> enrico: yeah, I have to shut it off whenever I am trying to do anything substantial
[10:08] <mdke_laptop> heh
[10:08] <enrico> mdke_laptop: sivang is our mascotte: he hangs in the channel saying he's sorry for not helping the docteam but promising he'll do it soon :)
[10:08] <mdke_laptop> lol
[10:08] <sivang> enrico: btw, we still have the bug that we cannot put the documentation to a nice palce at front right?
[10:08] <enrico> sivang: sure!
[10:08] <sivang> enrico: hehehe
[10:08] <mdke_laptop> that is the worst bug of all
[10:08] <mdke_laptop> brb
[10:09] <sivang> enrico: well, I at least promise to help on such matters like registerting the docs, I will try bugger up shawnm for the release about it
[10:10] <enrico> sivang: oh, yes, please!
[10:10] <enrico> sivang: I'm clueless on that
[10:11] <sivang> enrico: I promise to do that, really, shawn is already used to me bugging him alot :)
[10:11] <sivang> enrico: s/promise/promise to do my best to try and achive these, not accounting force major stuff/
[10:11] <sivang> :-)


[00:19] <holstein> akgraner: i voted for you i think :)
[00:19] <akgraner> holstein, awww thank you...
[00:52] <holstein> akgraner: you around?
[00:52] <holstein> i have some ubuntustudio questions