[16:24] <ananke> I have a weird issue, where identical (and fairly simple) cloud-init config passed via AWS userdata behaves just fine on Amazon Linux 2, but on ubuntu and kali AMIs (haven't tried any more) cloud-init seems to try to actually _execute_ /var/lib/cloud/instance/user-data.txt
[16:24] <ananke> here's a sample log: http://sprunge.us/tlrTjt
[16:24] <blackboxsw> that does seem weird. have any sample userdata for us?
[16:25] <blackboxsw> wow that's strange
[16:25] <blackboxsw> ananke: I think the past of /var/log/cloud-init.log would be more helpful to supplement the cloud-init-output.log you pasted
[16:25] <ananke> now here's the interesting part: those config directives are in fact executing just fine, because files are written as per write_file, etc
[16:26] <ananke> lemme get the sample userdata
[16:26] <blackboxsw> cool `sudo cloud-init query userdata` may help on that system
[16:26] <blackboxsw> be wary of credentials :)
[16:27] <ananke> here's the userdata: https://dpaste.org/QJXDs
[16:28] <ananke> here was the full log: http://sprunge.us/NCSfcU
[16:29] <ananke> I'm going to kick off a sample ec2 instance and run that query command
[16:38] <ananke> hmm, vanilla ubuntu doesn't show those problems, wonder if it's something we have in our cloud-init's configs in AMIs we created. though I do get the error about : /var/lib/cloud/instance/scripts/runcmd: 2: source: not found
[16:38] <blackboxsw> thx for the example wonder if         ${WaitConditionHandle} needs to be escaped in this case.  but this example will give me something to play w/ in `lxc launch ubuntu-daily:kinetic -c user.user-data="$(cat your-data.yaml)"`
[16:40] <ananke> ${WaitConditionHandle} is populated by cloudformation in this case, and should be one line (though it's a long URL)
[16:40] <blackboxsw> ananke try cat /var/lib/cloud/instance/scripts/runcmd  I presume cloud-init shellifying your code isn't rendering what you expect it to
[16:41] <blackboxsw> you should be able to invoke that runcmd script directly with sudo to test debug expected behavior
[16:41] <ananke> thanks, I'll take a look
[16:42] <ananke> have been at this all morning. what's frustrating is that on amazon linux 2 it seems to work just fine, while the other AMIs I'm using seem to be showing those errors, AND they seem to execute the commands from `runcmd` _twice_. Once, earlier in the boot, then a minute or two later
[16:53] <ananke> ohh, interesting. 'source' error is because #!/bin/sh is used
[16:54] <ananke> wonder if amazon linux 2 uses bash to construct runcmd script
[19:00] <blackboxsw> sorry,  went into a hole on review of Ubuntu uploads for a bit. testing of lxd_container with tip of main is green  https://jenkins.canonical.com/server-team/view/cloud-init/job/cloud-init-integration-kinetic-lxd_container/50/ Azure still in progress https://jenkins.canonical.com/server-team/view/cloud-init/job/cloud-init-integration-kinetic-azure/51/.
[19:01] <blackboxsw> getting an aws runner going to confirm we are good for a quick release of tip into ubuntu kinetic
[19:04] <blackboxsw> https://jenkins.canonical.com/server-team/view/cloud-init/job/cloud-init-integration-kinetic-ec2/48/ running now too. once we see results here, I will publish https://github.com/canonical/cloud-init/pull/1625 to Ubuntu 22.10 (kinetic)


[00:41] <_mup_> ensemble/debug-log-relation-settings-changes r277 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[00:41] <_mup_> Delay __str__ of relation setting changes
[00:51] <niemeyer> Time to bake a new mgo release
[00:54] <SpamapS> niemeyer: talk went very well
[00:54] <SpamapS> Finished a bit early but had tons of questions.
[00:54] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Oh, tell me about it!
[00:55] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Was it videoed?
[00:55] <SpamapS> sadly no
[00:55] <SpamapS> Would have been good to have it on tape actually
[00:55] <niemeyer> Awww
[00:56] <niemeyer> SpamapS: So, how was it received?
[00:56] <SpamapS> Very well
[00:56] <SpamapS> There was one.. semi-hostile question asking how we could possibly do hardware provisioning w/ cobbler...
[00:56] <SpamapS> But I presented that as "not done yet" so it had no real legs.
[00:56] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Huh
[00:57] <SpamapS> He was just surprised we'd even try that when Open Stack is doing something similar but basically rolling their own cobbler.
[00:57] <niemeyer> Heh
[00:57] <SpamapS> It was the only non-excited question
[00:58] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Sweet
[00:58] <SpamapS> People saw very well how it is not the same as puppet or chef, and how the relationship definitions make it easier to deploy complex setups.
[00:58] <SpamapS> *Most* people are interested in when stacks will be ready... even though I barely mentioned them.. people see the value in the idea of repeating the entire deployment.
[00:59] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Cool, yeah, that's important indeed
[00:59] <SpamapS> A couple people said they had done similar things w/ zookeeper and thought it was a good choice for this type of info.
[00:59] <niemeyer> SpamapS: True.. I do hear about people using zk in a more custom setup, but doing similar stuff for config deployment and discovery
[01:00] <SpamapS> The Nebula guys were interested in how Ensemble could be used to add services to the openstack dashboard.
[01:00] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Hah, neat
[01:00] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Any interesting follow up conversations from there?
[01:00] <SpamapS> I didn't get a lot of people saying they wanted to write formulas.. which I was hoping for.. but.. the interest level was as much in joining the development of ensemble itself as anything.. so thats a nice surprise.
[01:02] <SpamapS> The best follow up was w/ the Nebula guys. They said they were trying to think of a way to encompass services in a generic way and so they liked the idea of just using ensemble for that.
[01:02] <niemeyer> SpamapS: That's half expected.. we'll have a _lot_ more people using it than developing
[01:02] <niemeyer> (hopefully ;-)
[01:02] <_mup_> ensemble/debug-log-relation-settings-changes r278 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:02] <_mup_> Modified output format of change items
[01:02] <niemeyer> SpamapS: That's very promising
[01:02] <SpamapS> niemeyer: well the audience is open source developers.. so its not a surprise that they'd want to get deep into code
[01:03] <SpamapS> Anyway, I invited a lot of people to the bof which starts in 55 minutes.. will send an email with my report on both events tomorrow.
[01:03] <niemeyer> SpamapS: OSCON seems quite varied in terms of audience
[01:03] <SpamapS> niemeyer: indeed.. all over the place
[01:04] <SpamapS> OpenStack seems to be the belle of the ball tho. :)
[01:04] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Fantastic
[01:04] <niemeyer> SpamapS: That's good.. I hope people make it nice :)
[01:04] <jcastro> SpamapS: glad to hear it went well
[01:04] <SpamapS> jcastro: as predicted, lolcats were lol-flat
[01:04] <jcastro> SpamapS: when you get back let's do a call,  I want all the nitty gritty reactions, etc.
[01:04] <jcastro> I told you dude, last year's joke!
[01:05] <SpamapS> jcastro: only joke that hit was me acting excited that we were ushering in the singularity .. one step away from Skynet. ;)
[01:05] <SpamapS> jcastro: I wish I had time to change it. :-P no worries, the content was quite compelling.
[01:05] <jcastro> heh
[01:06] <jcastro> glad to hear people didn't confuse it with puppet/chef
[01:06] <jcastro> I've been getting alot of that
[01:06] <SpamapS> jcastro: A couple of people did make the point that puppet/chef can do some of the same things. But once they get that the formula is a self contained unit they let go of that.
[01:06]  * jcastro nods
[01:06] <jcastro> SpamapS: hey did jono attend your talk?
[01:07] <SpamapS> no haven't seen him
[01:07] <SpamapS> big conference center.. and our tracks do not collide. :-P
[01:07] <SpamapS> adam_g was there.. and can maybe offer his own impressions.
[01:15] <_mup_> ensemble/debug-log-relation-settings-changes r279 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:15] <_mup_> Test new formatting for long strings
[01:23] <_mup_> ensemble/debug-log-relation-settings-changes r280 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:23] <_mup_> Changed use of nonlocal in apply_changes
[01:47] <_mup_> ensemble/debug-log-relation-settings-changes r281 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:47] <_mup_> Fix test_invoker with respect to new format
[01:49] <_mup_> ensemble/debug-log-relation-settings-changes r282 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:49] <_mup_> Capitalization
[01:54] <_mup_> ensemble/debug-log-relation-settings-changes r283 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[01:54] <_mup_> Log testing of hooks must wait for the ended deferred
[02:06] <_mup_> ensemble/debug-log-relation-settings-changes r284 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[02:06] <_mup_> PyFlakes
[07:28] <kim0> Morning everyone
[07:40] <raphink> hi kim0
[08:15] <kim0> raphink: hey
[09:08] <shang> hi all, when I do the ensemble add-relation mydb:db myblog, what is the ":db" means?
[09:08] <shang> are there any other options that I can use?
[09:09] <shang> it's not just a relationship name, it has to be db, otherwise the system won't take it
[09:19] <kim0> shang: Hi there
[09:19] <kim0> shang: seems like you were at cloud days ?
[09:19] <shang> kim0: hi, thanks for the great session the other day
[09:20] <kim0> cool
[09:20] <shang> kim0: I was actually watching ur youtube video and start plaing with ensemble :-)
[09:20] <shang> kim0: the zero to ensemble in 5 minutes was awesome!!
[09:20] <kim0> ah great .. looking into the formulas to answer your question
[09:21] <kim0> shang: ok so basically, looking at metadata.yaml .. you will find that the mysql formula provides many possible relations
[09:21] <kim0> like, db, db-admin, shared-db, master ..
[09:21] <shang> ah!
[09:21] <kim0> so that :db that you add there, is needed to know exactly which relation to use
[09:22] <shang> right, initially, I thought the name could be anything
[09:22] <kim0> it could be anything for the formula writer :)
[09:22] <shang> just a name for the relation
[09:22] <shang> right, :D
[09:22] <kim0> shang: so how are you enjoying your ensembling
[09:23] <shang> yeah, very fun....
[09:23] <kim0> awesome :)
[09:23] <shang> kim0: still looking into how the ensemble and orchestra work together tho
[09:23] <kim0> You'll love it even more when you start writing a formula
[09:23] <shang> kim0: have to read through the logs again
[09:23] <kim0> a ha .. that's still work in progress
[09:24] <shang> yeah, I will definitely give that a try
[09:24] <kim0> playing with ensemble on ec2 might be the path of least resistance for now
[09:24] <kim0> but sure .. have fun :)
[09:24] <kim0> shang: let me know once you feel confident enough to write your first formula
[09:24] <shang> yeah, I test a couple times on ec2 already
[09:24] <shang> kim0: haha, I will be sure to let u know! :D
[09:25] <kim0> cool :)
[09:25] <shang> kim0: so the idea is to be able to use ensemble on openstack (like ec2 ) and deploy openstack (orchestra)?
[09:26] <kim0> I think that's correct yes, bu I might be missing some details
[09:26] <kim0> ensemble will definitely use openstack like it does ec2
[09:27] <kim0> and ensemble will integrate with orchestra but I'm not entirely clear on the details there
[09:27] <shang> ok
[09:27] <shang> i will catch up with the logs and see what's going on :)
[09:28] <kim0> cool
[09:28] <kim0> shang: and you can wait for the us to wake up and ask again, you'll get more details :)
[09:29] <shang> kim0: yeah, I will do more reading first :)
[09:29]  * kim0 nods .. have fun
[09:29] <shang> kim0: thanks again for all the hard works!
[09:29]  * kim0 works on a new and cool ensemble blog post
[09:30]  * shang wrote a few ensemble 101 post, but will write more fun stuff in the future!
[09:30] <kim0> shang: throw them over and I can tweet them from ubuntucloud :)
[09:31] <shang> kim0: was very basic, but this is like a ensemble journey to me ;) http://voices.canonical.com/shang.wu/category/ensemble/
[09:32] <kim0> cool :)
[09:49] <TeTeT> shang: nice writeup, will follow it eventually and do some more testing. Still need to write my very first own formula
[09:50] <shang> TeTeT: yeah, I will try the same!
[13:04] <niemeyer> Greetings!
[13:20] <niemeyer> Hey, happy sysadmin day!
[13:53] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-machines r293 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[13:53] <_mup_> Merged trunk
[13:53] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-machines-reexpose r302 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[13:53] <_mup_> Merged upstream expose-provision-machines
[13:56] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provider-ec2 r307 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[13:56] <_mup_> Merged upstreadm expose-provsion-machines-reexpose
[14:06] <niemeyer> Got to restart.. kernel upgrade pending for a while
[14:21] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provider-ec2 r308 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[14:21] <_mup_> Removed EC2 operation classes in favor of functions for security group functions
[14:42] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provider-ec2 r309 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[14:42] <_mup_> PEP8 & PyFlakes
[14:49] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provider-ec2 r310 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[14:49] <_mup_> Reverted a side PEP8 fix, apparently it's possible to have 'd.has_key(key)' and 'key in d' to be different
[14:51] <jimbaker> too bad, i've been annoyed about that pep8 violation for a while in test_base.py, but it's definitely not in scope for this branch to figure out why that would be the case
[15:15] <kim0> Ensemble crunching UFO data with hadoop :) http://cloud.ubuntu.com/2011/07/ubuntu-takes-ufos-to-the-cloud/
[15:18] <niemeyer> fwereade: Wow.. Lots of new branches in review.. were all of these just pending bugs?
[15:18] <m_3> kim0: nice!
[15:18] <jimbaker> kim0, i think you meant corpus, not corpse ;)
[15:18] <kim0> lol .. fixing
[15:18] <jimbaker> but when it's about ufos, who knows?
[15:18] <niemeyer> ROTFL
[15:18] <m_3> ah, corpse fits in with the theme though
[15:18] <fwereade> niemeyer: they were all features tidied and moved from andres' branch, which I added bugs to yesterday to ensure they showed up in the queue ;)
[15:19] <niemeyer> fwereade: and I thought I was free from reviews.. tsc tsc
[15:19] <fwereade> niemeyer: if yu weren't expecting them, I may have misunderstood you yesterday?
[15:19] <niemeyer> fwereade: I wasn't expecting them only in the sense I had no idea we had that many branches ready to land already. :-)
[15:20] <niemeyer> fwereade: It's awesome to have them, though!
[15:20] <fwereade> niemeyer: be careful what order you do them, some of them have >1 prerequisite so the diffs look larger than they really are
[15:20] <fwereade> niemeyer: cool :)
[15:20] <niemeyer> fwereade: Ok.. is it well documented in the description/metadata of the MP?
[15:20] <fwereade> niemeyer: should be
[15:20] <niemeyer> fwereade: Cool
[15:20] <niemeyer> fwereade: I'll find my way thne
[15:20] <niemeyer> then
[15:21] <niemeyer> Looks like that's my afternoon today
[15:21] <fwereade> niemeyer: it's just that the MP can only understand a single prereq (AFAICT)
[15:21] <niemeyer> fwereade: Yeah, but if you documented, I'll find a way to get a reasonable diff
[15:21] <niemeyer> fwereade: I just won't be happy if I have to guess what are the pre-reqs :-)
[15:21] <fwereade> niemeyer: cool :)
[15:25] <jimbaker> fwereade, that's a whole lot of branches, cool
[15:25] <fwereade> jimbaker: cheers, sorry I was unwittingly hiding them all week :)
[15:26] <jimbaker> fwereade, do please take a look at the my branch expose-provider-ec2. i think it's ready for merging since i've addressed your and niemeyer's questions
[15:27] <fwereade> jimbaker: just saw that had landed, will do
[15:27] <jimbaker> i will be on vacation next week, so i'd like to see this land soon, and not wait to austin
[15:28] <jimbaker> the requested changes were easy, the painful part was dealing with the refactoring that happened on trunk
[15:45] <niemeyer> Will get some lunch and bbiab
[15:57] <_mup_> ensemble/states-with-principals r300 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[15:57] <_mup_> security convience api for integration work.
[16:10] <_mup_> Bug #818139 was filed: orchestra: can't terminate instances <Ensemble:In Progress by fwereade> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/818139 >
[16:11] <fwereade> I think I need to stop at the correct time today: so, later all, enjoy your weekends :)
[16:11] <m_3> fwereade: later man
[16:11] <fwereade> (it's funny, these timezones make me feel like a slacker ;))
[16:11] <m_3> ha!
[16:11] <m_3> it works the other way around too
[16:11] <hazmat> fwereade, have a good weekend
[16:11] <m_3> we get in and you've got gobs of stuff there
[16:12] <fwereade> haha, jolly good, as long as the pain is spread evenly :p
[16:12] <fwereade> cheers
[16:27] <_mup_> ensemble/states-with-principals r301 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[16:27] <_mup_> incorporate the workaround for zk-770 fast auth directly into principal.attach methods.
[17:08] <m_3> jcastro, kim0: language check please... ensemble.ubuntu.com/Interfaces (and the mysql one too)
[17:09] <jcastro> on it
[17:10] <jcastro> m_3: I'm going to just make you an ensemble interface template
[17:10] <m_3> xclnt
[17:12] <m_3> jcastro: they'll be scripted if that makes any difference for the template
[17:24] <kim0> m_3: is writing a formula consumers really necessary ? mysql consumers list is gonna grow large quick
[17:27] <jcastro> m_3: oh ok, so they'll just all output like the mysql one?
[17:27] <m_3> jcastro: yeah, that's the idea
[17:27] <m_3> kim0: nope, not necessary
[17:28] <jcastro> oh ok, we won't need a template then
[17:28] <SpamapS> Yeah drop the consumers
[17:28] <m_3> kim0: it'd be nice though... let's say I'm writing a new formula that consumes mysql... I know where to copy from
[17:28] <SpamapS> If we want to auto-generate that from the repository we will, but don't manually maintain it
[17:28] <m_3> yeah, the info is in the repo
[17:29] <jcastro> m_3: you might want to add CategoryInterface at the bottom of each so moin can group them all
[17:29] <m_3> was gonna try to not _manually_ maintain any of it
[17:29] <m_3> jcastro: thanks, I'll add
[17:31] <jcastro> m_3: and <<Include(Header)>> at the top, so it adds the nice menu thing at the top, I've added a submenu for Interfaces
[17:32] <m_3> do I add the "Interfaces" page to CategoryCategory to get CategoryInterfaces to show up?
[17:32] <SpamapS> m_3: this is *way* too hard to understand. Fields for what? when do they get set (on join or on changed?) .. also does it wait for incoming stuff?
[17:32] <jcastro> yeah
[17:33] <m_3> SpamapS: ok, I'll add more structure to it
[17:34]  * kim0 starts weekend .. partially afk
[17:35] <niemeyer> m_3: Hmm
[17:36] <niemeyer> m_3: Having a table like that at the top as a summary may be fine, but the mysql interface description is lacking the most important bits
[17:36] <niemeyer> m_3: Also, note that an interface is two-sided.. there's a client and a server
[17:36] <jcastro> m_3: I'll do the organizing, as long as you have the CategoryInterface on each page we'll be good, I'll go find out how to add it to CategoryCategory
[17:36] <m_3> niemeyer: yeah, SpamapS was just sayign that
[17:37] <m_3> jcastro: cool
[17:37] <niemeyer> m_3: Who sets what, and how should the other side react
[17:37] <niemeyer> m_3: At which time, etc
[17:37] <m_3> niemeyer: understood
[17:38] <niemeyer> m_3: We really need some prose
[17:38] <m_3> niemeyer: I was actually thinking a picture
[17:38] <niemeyer> m_3: Also, the interface should be lowercased: "mysql"
[17:38] <m_3> niemeyer: not sure that's maintainable though
[17:38] <niemeyer> m_3: Pictures are hard to maintain over time
[17:39] <niemeyer> m_3: Also hard to debate on a mailing list
[17:39] <m_3> niemeyer: gotcha
[17:41] <niemeyer> m_3: The table is a nice touch, though, as a summary
[17:44] <m_3> first pass... I'll refine
[17:45] <niemeyer> Okay, reviews
[17:50] <SpamapS> m_3: to me the format is more hierarchical.. there are 4 events for any relation, and thus, any interface, and 2 participants, so potentially 8 tables.   provider->joined,changed,departed,broken  and the same for requirer
[17:51] <SpamapS> broken may not be useful at the interface level tho
[17:54] <jimbaker> niemeyer, thanks for that approval
[17:56] <m_3> SpamapS: yes, saw your email on it... that made a lot of sense
[17:56] <niemeyer> jimbaker: np
[17:56] <m_3> SpamapS: one thing that wasn't clear was what you meant by an interface repo as opposed to a formula repo
[17:56] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Looking at expose-provider-ec2 now
[17:57] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Trying to understand why we need machine_id in the provider
[17:57] <jimbaker> niemeyer, sure. the problem is we need to determine the security group associated with that machine
[17:58] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Machine.instance_id should uniquely identify that machine within the provider, and we have that information
[17:58] <jimbaker> niemeyer, the security group must be created before the machine is launched, so the machine_id seems appropriate for this sort of info
[17:58] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Why do we need two identifiers within the provider?
[17:58] <jimbaker> niemeyer, we only get the machine.instance_id upon launch
[17:58] <niemeyer> jimbaker: That's right.. hm
[17:59] <jimbaker> niemeyer, so we need some sort of identifier that exists prior to launch, and can be uniquely associated with the machine
[17:59] <jimbaker> niemeyer, this is the role of machine_id
[17:59] <niemeyer> jimbaker: It is, but I'm a bit unhappy with having to cross-reference..
[18:00] <jimbaker> niemeyer, agreed
[18:00] <niemeyer> jimbaker: The machine in zk knows the instance id, and now the machine itself has a reference to the machine id
[18:00] <jimbaker> niemeyer, sure. but we still need to have the security group created
[18:00] <jimbaker> niemeyer, this is why i kept them separated in the original API
[18:01] <jimbaker> niemeyer, we can remove this ugliness once we stop using security groups
[18:04] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Yeah, let me ponder for a moment if there's a way to avoid having the machine id there
[18:05] <jimbaker> niemeyer, sounds good
[18:05] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Just so you understand, doing this means the provider cannot construct such an object anymore
[18:05] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Because it can't tell what's the id of the machine
[18:06] <jimbaker> niemeyer, it cannot construct an immutable object, that's true
[18:07] <jimbaker> niemeyer, so maybe the better alternative is to back to the original API and pass machine_id separately from machine
[18:07] <jimbaker> niemeyer, however this will not be necessary once we remove the security group requirements
[18:08] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Sure, once we remove the code you're introducing the code being introduced stops being a problem ;-)
[18:08] <jimbaker> niemeyer, hah
[18:09] <jimbaker> niemeyer, given that the responsibilities for managing the firewall will also move to the machine agent, it does kill a lot of the code in the predecessor branches too :)
[18:10] <jimbaker> niemeyer, but at least the provider API remains the same, although that's a small part
[18:11] <SpamapS> m_3: I mean if we were going to put interfaces in machine readable format, we shouldn't put them in with the formulas. They' don't belong to any one formula
[18:12] <m_3> ok
[18:14] <_mup_> ensemble/debug-log-relation-settings-changes r285 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:14] <_mup_> Fix minor formatting nits
[18:14] <niemeyer> m_3: FWIW, there's no need to define the hook where the setting is made
[18:15] <niemeyer> m_3: It's fine for this to be implementation specific
[18:15] <niemeyer> m_3: Due to the way Ensemble works, formulas can wait until the other side provides the setting
[18:16] <m_3> I'm thinking language like...
[18:16] <m_3> When 'relation-joined', mysql:
[18:16] <m_3> provides:
[18:16] <m_3> accepts:
[18:17] <niemeyer> m_3: Yeah, but that's exactly the point.. we don't have to enforce that
[18:17] <m_3> When 'relation-changed', mysql: etc etc
[18:17] <niemeyer> m_3: It's fine for a formula to provide the setting at its own time
[18:17] <niemeyer> m_3: The other side will get told that the setting is now available
[18:18] <niemeyer> m_3: Let me think of an analogy.. hmm
[18:18] <m_3> niemeyer: so you would consider two different formulas setting the same parameters in different hooks to be using the same interface
[18:18] <m_3> niemeyer: and SpamapS would consider those to be two different interfaces?
[18:18] <niemeyer> m_3: If you come to visit me, you'll ring the bell, and I'll open the door
[18:19] <niemeyer> m_3: We don't have to agree at the exact time when this happens, because when you're ready you'll ring the bell, I'll listen to it, and will open the door
[18:20] <niemeyer> m_3: Yes, I'll consider the same interface, because formulas shouldn't be built on the expectation of the exact hook where something must happen
[18:20] <niemeyer> m_3: The relation settings are events.. if formula A has to provide a username to formula B, formula B can sit and wait until the username is available
[18:21] <m_3> ok, lemme put language around it and we can go over concrete examples
[18:21] <SpamapS> niemeyer: what you're saying is, define what to do when you receive a hook, not what to do inside a hook
[18:23] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Assuming you mean "when you receive a setting", right
[18:23] <_mup_> ensemble/trunk r287 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:23] <_mup_> merge debug-log-relation-settings-changes [r=hazmat,niemeyer][f=766317]
[18:23] <_mup_> Log (at debug level) the relation setting changes that occur upon a
[18:23] <_mup_> successful hook exit.
[18:24] <jimbaker> formula developers, rejoice! - you can now see all of your relation setting changes in the debug log
[18:25] <m_3> jimbaker: *\0/*
[18:26] <jcastro> http://foss-boss.blogspot.com/2011/07/ubuntu-takes-ufos-to-cloud.html
[18:26] <jimbaker> m_3, the next step is to parse the resulting debug log to generate some sequence diagrams, http://sdedit.sourceforge.net/example/index.html
[18:27] <jcastro> woo, so when can we get rid of those first two steps with branching people's formulas?
[18:27] <jimbaker> m_3, ok, a little bit out as a step... but definitely something that would be cool
[18:29] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-machines r294 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:29] <_mup_> Merged trunk
[18:31] <m_3> jimbaker: that would actually be very useful... and damned sexy
[18:32] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provision-machines-reexpose r303 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:32] <_mup_> Merged upstream expose-provision-machines
[18:32] <m_3> jcastro: dunno man... there's fluffy stuff associated with that... like the name for principia for instance
[18:32] <jcastro> heh
[18:33] <jcastro> end of july!
[18:35] <jimbaker> m_3, yeah, it would be a cool complement to the docs on interfaces being discussed
[18:36] <jimbaker> m_3, here's how my formula actually interacts with your formulas
[18:36] <jimbaker> one could see a riak ring in action - what info is being communicated as the ring is being modified with add-unit/remove-unit
[18:37] <jimbaker> one swim lane could be the ensemble administrator doing commands, the other swim lanes would be the unit agents
[18:37] <m_3> it'd be interesting to visually debug
[18:38] <_mup_> ensemble/expose-provider-ec2 r311 committed by<EMAIL_ADDRESS>[18:38] <_mup_> Merged upstream expose-provision-machines-reexpose
[18:38] <m_3> niemeyer, SpamapS: ensemble.ubuntu.com/Interfaces mysqlA vs mysqlB?
[18:40] <m_3> (general approach)
[18:41] <niemeyer> m_3: Hmm.. that seems to be going away from what I had in mind
[18:42] <niemeyer> m_3: What we need is paragraph of text for a human to read
[18:43] <m_3> niemeyer: oh sorry, yes, I understood that... filling in text is next
[18:43] <niemeyer> m_3: "The mysql interface enables a formula that requires a mysql database to have access to one.  (...) The server side of such a relation should be able to provide database information in the `username` and `password` settings to the client side (...) When the client side detects the ..."
[18:43] <m_3> niemeyer: just wanted to get the presentation details straight first
[18:44] <niemeyer> m_3: Yeah, sorry.. I just mean that all of these tables and hook names just shouldn't be there
[18:44] <m_3> niemeyer: ok, I'll give y'all a little more polished version then
[18:45] <niemeyer> m_3: Try to think about this as a consumer
[18:46] <niemeyer> m_3: If you were just starting to use Ensemble, and went into a page about an interface you had to implement.. what would you like to read there?
[18:47] <m_3> niemeyer: right... this was just enough content there to support our email conversation about what information should be part of the interface... certainly not done
[19:05] <SpamapS> As a consumer I'd want tables of variables available to me, and a description of what they mean
[19:06] <SpamapS> I'd also want to know what I can assume about the service
[19:07] <m_3> I'd also want to see a list of other similar services so I could copy
[19:07] <SpamapS> Nah
[19:07] <SpamapS> if thats there, it needs to be generated
[19:07] <m_3> oh, yeah
[19:10] <niemeyer> Agreed
[19:29] <robbiew> I'd also like a pony
[19:31] <robbiew> SpamapS: how'd OSCon session go?
[19:31] <SpamapS> robbiew: *great*
[19:32] <SpamapS> robbiew: good response from all.. reasonably well attended
[19:32] <robbiew> SpamapS: nice
[19:32] <SpamapS> robbiew: 2 guys came to the BoF later and I think enjoyed the demo
[19:32] <SpamapS> about to go to the wrap up plenary...
[19:33] <SpamapS> and then probably go to the airport and work from there till my flight leaves at 6
[19:33] <robbiew> ok
[20:08] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Review delivered on expose-provider-ec2
[20:08] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Please let me know what you thyink
[20:08] <niemeyer> jimbaker: I've covered the conversatino above there
[20:09] <niemeyer> jimbaker: I really think we should do something about it
[20:09] <niemeyer> jimbaker: But the suggestion is not too dramatic, I think
[20:09] <jimbaker> niemeyer, checking
[20:09] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Just the same thing, with a less magical API
[20:09] <niemeyer> Man.. and I didn't even get to William's 500 branches yt
[20:09] <niemeyer> yet
[20:10] <niemeyer> I'm half-depressed
[20:12] <jimbaker> niemeyer, thanks, it's definitely going to be what i work on in austin
[20:13] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Hmm?
[20:13] <jimbaker> but i'll try to take some stabs at it now
[20:13] <jimbaker> i'm on vacation next week
[20:13] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Oh, I didn't know that
[20:14] <jimbaker> niemeyer, sorry about that
[20:14] <niemeyer> jimbaker: LOL, you should be happy rather than sorry :-)
[20:14] <niemeyer> I think I'm taking a couple of months of holiday myself until 11.10
[20:14]  * niemeyer looks at robbiew
[20:14] <jimbaker> niemeyer, well it should be good, my wife has family visiting us, and they're fun people
[20:15] <niemeyer> jimbaker: Nice
[20:15]  * robbiew pretends he didn't read that
[20:24]  * niemeyer => coffee break
[21:09] <niemeyer> Okaaaay
[21:10] <niemeyer> Globo (huge TV channel around here) just made my day by saying in the news that people should not click on any link that ends in a .php because it could be a _trap_!
[21:17] <hallyn> niemeyer: save yourself by taking my floppy and clicking on the .exe that comes up.
[21:18] <niemeyer> hallyn: :-)
[21:36] <fwereade> niemeyer: they're still blind to the dangers of .asp then? this is a disaster waiting to happen!
[21:37] <niemeyer> fwereade: Very true :-)
[21:50] <niemeyer> bcsaller: Given that you'll be looking at the local dev/LXC stuff, would be nice to have your reviews on William's branch that are up
[22:00] <bcsaller> niemeyer: I will
[22:19] <niemeyer> bcsaller: Thanks
[22:19] <niemeyer> Alright.. that's enough reviewing for me for the day..
[22:20] <niemeyer> Have a good weekend all.. I'll step back and lay down for a moment
[22:31] <jimbaker> niemeyer, take care!
[23:56] <jcastro> m_3: does your postgres formula mostly work?


[00:33] <s1> Salutation.
[00:34] <EvilResistance> greetings
[00:34] <EvilResistance> how's things :p
[00:34] <wylde> blargh....
[00:34] <EvilResistance> heh
[00:36] <s1> Pretty good here :)
[00:36] <wylde> trying to find homes for some of the bugs with no package assignments. o.O Ther's some ridiculous stuff in here.
[00:37] <EvilResistance> wylde:  link me to an example
[00:37] <EvilResistance> or two
[00:37]  * EvilResistance may try and find where they belong
[00:37] <wylde> alrighty, moment
[00:37] <s1> i have one , which i filed myself ..
[00:37] <s1> !bug #995185
[00:37] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 995185 in gnome-settings-daemon "Multimedia keys are disabled" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/995185
[00:37] <EvilResistance> s1:  no need for using !bug
[00:38] <s1> Okay.
[00:38] <wylde> bug #994827 .... that one I don't think is a bug really, but I have no idea what to do with it.
[00:38] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 994827 in ubuntu "ubuntu-bug gives up too easily" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/994827
[00:38] <EvilResistance> s1:  are you sure this is a bug, or just a request for support?
[00:39] <s1> I think i got confused somewhere ..
[00:39] <wylde> oooh, here's one for you bug #993684
[00:39] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 993684 in ubuntu "I'm trying to "update" ubuntu, I want to prove if my losten grub appears" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/993684
[00:39] <s1> or assigned against the wrong package !
[00:40] <EvilResistance> wylde:  that one seems like it should be invalid
[00:41] <EvilResistance> s1:  are you asking for support, or filing that there is a bug in the program?
[00:41] <EvilResistance> if you're asking for support, a bug won't help you
[00:41] <EvilResistance> if you're showing that a bug exists in the program, then it might
[00:42] <s1> EvilResistance: I really don't know.
[00:43] <s1> I just found this trubleshooting steps .. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hotkeys/Troubleshooting
[00:43] <EvilResistance> s1:  i read your "bug report" and its not a bug report in this instanfce
[00:43] <EvilResistance> i've marked it as invalid
[00:43] <EvilResistance> and posted a comment pointing you towards where you could get support
[00:44] <s1> EvilResistance: Thank you.
[00:44] <EvilResistance> (at least that's my opinion, if another bug squad member thinks otherwise, they're free to change it)
[00:45] <EvilResistance> wylde:  bug 993684 might be a not-a-bug instance, but its hard to tell
[00:45] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 993684 in ubuntu "I'm trying to "update" ubuntu, I want to prove if my losten grub appears" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/993684
[00:45] <wylde> now, this one was never assigned to a package, although a quick scan of the comments sound like it was resolved ( should have been a support request I think).
[00:45] <EvilResistance> wylde:  might post to the bug squad mailing list if you want :/
[00:46] <wylde> EvilResistance: yeah, I set it to invalid, if the reporter feels the need to challenge that then I'm good wih it, might get more info out of him anyway.
[00:46] <EvilResistance> wylde:  that's what i'd do :P
[00:47] <wylde> lol
[00:47] <wylde> I'm just being a little over cautious, my first day trying to triage I managed to get spanked twice >.<
[00:47] <EvilResistance> wylde:  :P
[00:48] <EvilResistance> wylde:  i'm relatively new too, bnut i recommend you follow the triage guide like its law
[00:48] <EvilResistance> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage  in case you havent got the link
[00:48] <EvilResistance> i always keep that link up while i'm working on bugs :P
[00:48] <wylde> EvilResistance: yep, I have it. There's just some of these reports you just can't compare to it. You know?
[00:48] <EvilResistance> and when i'm unsure about whether it needs triaging i come here, ask bugsquad members' opinions, and poke bugcontrol members here when its worth it
[00:48] <EvilResistance> wylde:  mhm
[00:49]  * EvilResistance had one of those a few days ago
[00:50] <EvilResistance> (and so far, the ones i've pointed out for triaging have been valid for triaging)
[00:50] <wylde> EvilResistance: last week or the week before I had a reporter trying to add me their google+ lol
[00:51] <EvilResistance> wylde:  and this is why i dont have google+ or public facebooks :P
[00:51] <wylde> EvilResistance: I don't use it, I do use 1 of my gmail addresses for here though.
[00:51] <EvilResistance> :P
[00:54] <EvilResistance> wylde:  that ubuntu-bug one goes against apport i think
[00:54] <EvilResistance> apt-file shows ubuntu-bug as part of apport
[00:54] <wylde> oh this one, bug #992906 I ran across while looking for minor document bugs to fix. I moved it Unity.
[00:54] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 992906 in unity "Log out, power off icon(applet) not present on desk top" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/992906
[00:54] <EvilResistance> actually i'm not sure now
[00:54] <wylde> yeah I think it is.
[00:55]  * EvilResistance shurgs
[00:55] <EvilResistance> shrugs*
[00:56] <wylde> yeah I'll go with that, it's better than no package assignment
[00:56] <EvilResistance> dont bother yet
[00:56]  * EvilResistance is checking with someone
[00:56] <wylde> ok
[00:56] <wylde> it may even be an "opinion"
[00:56]  * EvilResistance is checking with the MOTUs for which package its against
[00:56] <EvilResistance> but it should be OPinjion
[00:57] <EvilResistance> i'll poke a bugcontrol person in a minute
[00:57] <wylde> lol alrighty
[00:58] <EvilResistance> ah ubuntu-bug is in apport
[00:58] <EvilResistance> which bug was that one again?
[00:58] <EvilResistance> that one about ubuntu-bug
[00:58] <wylde> sec
[00:58] <EvilResistance> was it this? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/994827
[00:58] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 994827 in ubuntu "ubuntu-bug gives up too easily" [Undecided,New]
[00:59] <wylde> yep
[01:00] <wylde> brb needs me MOAR COFFEE! ...and to get out of this chair for a minute >.>
[01:00] <EvilResistance> its set to 'opinion', but its open to be changed, if its not an opinion-type :P
[01:00] <Daekdroom> That bug might indeed be a bug. I think it's the wording that sucks.
[01:01] <EvilResistance> Daekdroom:  its against apport, that much I know
[01:02] <EvilResistance> but that wording suggests opinion, not bug
[01:02] <EvilResistance> if it *is* a bug, details need to be added
[01:02]  * EvilResistance set it to Opinion, but believes it may be a bug, ignoring the wording
[01:02] <EvilResistance> they don't specify which version of Ubuntu they're on, so if it was fixed later, we'll never know
[01:03] <EvilResistance> feel free to change it as you see fit, though :)
[01:03]  * EvilResistance values constructive criticism as it is needed
[01:03] <Resistance> oh, fooey.
[01:03] <Resistance> stupid ZNC changing my nick randomly >.>
[01:03]  * Resistance reminds himself to fix his autochange nicks script
[01:04] <Resistance> its supposed to go once every 6 hours, not every hour :/
[01:07] <Resistance> Daekdroom:  if you can suggest what the bug *should* say, we could invalidate bug 994827 and file a more technical bug, or recommend to the OP they do that
[01:07] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 994827 in ubuntu "ubuntu-bug gives up too easily" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/994827
[01:07] <Resistance> (OP = Original Poster)
[01:27] <wylde> lol alrighty
[01:29] <wylde> It does seem odd that it would even have an "other" option if it's going to demand a package be specified anyway. The "other" option should be removed, but only the dev can say if that's intended behavior or not :P
[01:30] <Resistance> other should return that it may not be a bug
[01:30] <wylde> ahhh true that. Possibly suggest a support channel or ubuntu-brainstorm
[01:30] <Resistance> mhm
[01:34] <wylde> uhhhh Bug #995697  <----- support question? Someone should also point out WEP even with 128bit "encryption" is like locking your front door with scotch tape >.<
[01:34] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 995697 in ubuntu "WEP security with passphrase broken" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/995697
[01:34] <Resistance> wylde: i'll propose that possible change to apport, but that'd be a feature request bug, so it wouldnt necessarily need a brainstorm topic (although this needed it: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/29656/ )
[01:34] <Resistance> whats this one now?
[01:34] <wylde> wireless wep issue
[01:35] <Daekdroom> wylde, why not warn people to prefer whatever is safer over WEP?
[01:35] <wylde> wpa-supplicant I suppose.
[01:35] <Daekdroom> I should dig into that a bit and file a wishlist on Launchpad :P
[01:35] <wylde> Daekdroom: yep, what I was getting at. :)
[01:36] <Resistance> Daekdroom:  that's a support request, but not a bug report, really
[01:36] <Daekdroom> Resistance, the bug mentioned above?
[01:37] <Daekdroom> Or suggesting that the network applet warn people to use some sort of encryption over others?
[01:37] <Resistance> Daekdroom:  IMO, yes, there *is* a way to fix WEP in 12.04, but its not a bug with any question
[01:37] <Resistance> the bug
[01:37] <Resistance> not the feature request
[01:37] <Resistance> i agree with the feature request
[01:37] <Resistance> the bug that was reported is a support request, not a bug report
[01:37] <Daekdroom> Indeed it is
[01:38] <wylde> indeed it is a support request?
[01:38] <Resistance> i marked it as invalid as such, since it's not a bug, but i would agree with filing a wishlist request on that proposed feature
[01:38] <Resistance> wylde:  yeah, i marked it as such
[01:38] <wylde> alrighty :)
[01:38] <Resistance> (the feature Daekdroom stated)
[01:38] <Resistance> it'd be instantly triageable :P
[01:39] <wylde> lol
[01:40] <wylde> I honestly think adding some awareness to wireless security options would be a good thing.
[01:40] <Resistance> i agree
[01:40] <Resistance> if Daekdroom or you files the feature request, i'll support it :P
[01:40] <Resistance> heck, I could file that feature request
[01:41] <Resistance> question though:
[01:41] <Resistance> which package gets the feature request assignied ot it?
[01:41] <Resistance> network manager?
[01:41] <Resistance> wicd?
[01:41] <Resistance> :P
[01:41] <Daekdroom> I'm not very familiar with the different types of encryption, so I don't think I'm the best to file it.
[01:41] <wylde> oooo nice idea Resistance, make make a squashfs file and keep the backup as a mountable/exportable FS :)
[01:41] <wylde> maybe make*
[01:41] <Resistance> wylde:  go register on brainstorm, post your ideas/solution to it
[01:41] <Resistance> i strongly support additional solutions :)
[01:42] <Daekdroom> I think it should be the package that contains the indicator.
[01:42] <Resistance> Daekdroom:  they both have indicators for wifi networking
[01:42]  * Resistance has used both
[01:42] <Resistance> i also dont know what's on each derivative
[01:42] <Resistance> i could find out, but i'm slightly lazy :P
[01:43] <wylde> I'm most familiar with network manager, anyone could find out. We're all just a little lazy :P
[01:43] <wylde> or "busy"?
[01:43] <Resistance> i know network manager, i've filed bugs against it before :P
[01:43] <Daekdroom> nm-connection-editor process is where it is.... What package does that belong to?
[01:43]  * Resistance is both lazyish and busyish
[01:43] <Resistance> Daekdroom:  i'll apt-file it
[01:44] <Resistance> Daekdroom:  network-manager-gnome
[01:44] <Resistance> afaict at least
[01:44] <Resistance> but that's not the source package
[01:45] <Resistance> at least not afaict
[01:45] <Resistance> (in natty)
[01:46] <Resistance> network-manager-applet (in precise)
[01:46] <Resistance> i think
[01:46] <Resistance> that's the source package for network-manager-gnome
[01:49] <Resistance> well apt-file checks against binaries...
[01:49] <Resistance> this is why i keep packages.ubuntu.com around :P
[01:49] <wylde> :)
[01:49] <Daekdroom> It is the source package indeed https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager-applet/
[01:50] <wylde> I use apt-file mostly for fixing compile dependencies
[01:50] <Resistance> Daekdroom:  apt-file to find the binary, packages.ubuntu.com/[release]/[package] to find the source
[01:50] <Resistance> :po
[01:50] <Resistance> :P *
[01:51] <IntuitiveNipple> Doesnt apt-file have a "showsrc" ? On android right now so cant check.
[01:51] <Resistance> nope
[01:52] <Resistance> note i'm checking in natty still, should probably use precise
[01:52] <IntuitiveNipple> Ahhh. Itd be in apt-cache then
[01:52] <Resistance> yep
[03:23] <steemed> Hi
[03:25] <EvilResistance> 'ello
[03:26] <steemed> Suffering from a bit of an anxiety attack, ick. Happens for no reason and I get all tensed up
[03:26] <EvilResistance> might need to get that checked.
[03:27] <steemed> Yeah, it's probably either what I grew up with and caused the depression or hypothyroidism
[03:27] <steemed> I'm self-diagnosing with hypothyroid, but a lot of the symptoms match but tests don't show that
[03:27] <EvilResistance> as i said, best get that checked.
[03:28] <steemed> yep
[03:32] <wylde> I actually got to confirm a bug I though was in error o.O
[03:32] <wylde> thought*
[03:33] <EvilResistance> wylde:  which bug
[03:33] <steemed> nice
[03:33] <wylde> Bug #994189
[03:33] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 994189 in gnome-terminal "killall incorrect tab completion" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/994189
[03:33] <wylde> tab completion really is misbehaving
[03:34] <EvilResistance> for certain programs
[03:34] <EvilResistance> works fine in zsh :P
[03:34] <wylde> EvilResistance: yeah, but even if it's some programs, it's a bug :)
[03:34] <EvilResistance> and it may even just be in bash
[03:34] <EvilResistance> did you confirm in zsh or some other shell?
[03:34] <wylde> hmmm true
[03:34] <EvilResistance> (just to be sure)
[03:34] <wylde> I'll do that
[03:35] <EvilResistance> because if the same issue happens with zsh, then its gnome-terminal, but if it happens in bash and not zsh, then... well...
[03:35] <EvilResistance> it could just be bash (so test in a tty)
[03:36] <EvilResistance> and if its reproducable in the TTY in bash and/or zsh, then it could be bash and/or zsh
[03:36] <EvilResistance> or the tab-completion package or whatever it is
[03:36] <wylde> same behaviour in tty
[03:36]  * EvilResistance is a believer in thorough testing when it comes to a terminal interface to make sure the bug isnt in the shell
[03:36] <EvilResistance> then the issue could be tab completion in bash
[03:37] <EvilResistance> or whatever shell
[03:37] <wylde> yeah
[03:37] <EvilResistance> do me a favor and load up some other shell, say zsh, and make sure tabcompletion is enablecd
[03:37] <EvilResistance> then test again
[03:38] <EvilResistance> if it happens in all shells, then it'll be a global tab-completion bug
[03:38] <EvilResistance> rather than just gnome-termina;
[03:38] <EvilResistance> gnome-terminal
[03:38] <wylde> hrmmmm
[03:38] <EvilResistance> if it doesn't happen in zsh or something in gnome-terminal and TTY, then it could just be bash tab completion
[03:39] <wylde> same in xterm
[03:40] <EvilResistance> in bash?
[03:40] <wylde> bah then it should be against gnome-terminal ....
[03:40] <wylde> yeah
[03:40] <EvilResistance> (and i didnt mean a different terminal emulator)
[03:40] <EvilResistance> (i meant an entirely different shell, i.e. not bash
[03:41] <wylde> aye
[03:42] <wylde> bahaha sh is just funny
[03:42] <EvilResistance> i dont call 'sh' a valid shell xD
[03:43] <wylde> lol well I'm not getting any real results with zsh
[03:44] <EvilResistance> real results being...
[03:45] <EvilResistance> not able to reproduce?
[03:45] <EvilResistance> (did you do theh config thing and enable tab-complete)
[03:45] <wylde> you mean the initial thing that pops up asking me to hit a key?
[03:46] <wylde> Populate your ~/.zshrc with the configuration recommended
[03:46] <wylde>      by the system administrator and exit (you will need to edit
[03:46] <wylde>      the file by hand, if so desired).
[03:46] <wylde> is the option i went with
[03:46] <EvilResistance> mmm, see i customized it
[03:47] <EvilResistance> does tab completion work on your system without additional configuring?
[03:47] <wylde> yeah I haven't, I just installed it and went with the default.
[03:47] <wylde> to a point
[03:47] <EvilResistance> did you test tab completion on something else with that?
[03:47] <wylde> not with killall plug
[03:47] <EvilResistance> with anything else
[03:47] <EvilResistance> (and if it works on other things, try killall plug[tab] )
[03:48] <wylde> Completing `process' or `corrections'
[03:48] <EvilResistance> just use the default config
[03:48] <EvilResistance> dont bother customizing
[03:49] <wylde> yeah, zsh is no help heh
[03:49] <EvilResistance> so the issue occurs there too?
[03:49] <wylde> I can't get the tab completion to work
[03:49] <wylde> no result there
[03:49] <EvilResistance> hmm
[03:50] <EvilResistance> hang on a sec
[03:50] <EvilResistance> this is 12.04 right?
[03:50] <wylde> mine is yes, the OP didn't give any details.
[03:50] <wylde> I asked them too though
[03:50] <EvilResistance> lemme test in my VM of 12.04
[03:50] <wylde> er to*
[03:51] <wylde> ooo bash-completion may be the right package
[03:51] <EvilResistance> well hang on a moment :p
[03:52]  * EvilResistance grabs his zshrc, uploads to remote-location, and opens his VM for Precise
[03:52] <wylde> I am, just trying to determine the culprit :)
[03:52] <EvilResistance> yep, i have most of the zsh tab completion active :P
[03:52]  * EvilResistance will test
[03:52] <wylde> thanks
[03:52] <EvilResistance> if i can confirm the error exists in zsh as well
[03:52] <EvilResistance> then its a bigger problem than just gnome-terminal
[03:53] <EvilResistance> if its not reproducible within zsh with most of the tab completion stuffs enabled, but happens in bash, it may be bash-completion
[03:53]  * EvilResistance will test with TTY as well
[03:53] <EvilResistance> this is why bugsquad is awesome: some of  us do more thorough testing :P
[03:53] <wylde> lol
[03:53] <EvilResistance> and we can sometimes provide alternate insights :P
[03:53]  * EvilResistance loads the VM now
[03:54] <wylde> always a good thing :)
[03:57] <wylde> bahaha, I almost killed unity with exiting a byobu shell >.<
[03:59] <EvilResistance> i'm curious what plugin-container is in...
[03:59] <EvilResistance> ahh...
[03:59] <EvilResistance> ffox i think
[03:59] <EvilResistance> and only for plugins to rujn
[04:00] <wylde> yep
[04:00] <EvilResistance> lemme load up youtube :P
[04:00] <wylde> alrighty
[04:03] <EvilResistance> hmm
[04:03] <EvilResistance> i can't confirm this exists
[04:03] <EvilResistance> tab-complete doesnt work
[04:03] <wylde> did you hit enter?
[04:04] <wylde> it LOOKS like it works, but the command won't complete
[04:04] <EvilResistance> it doesnt tab-complete :P
[04:04] <EvilResistance> that's the problem
[04:04] <wylde> not until I delete the r in container
[04:04] <EvilResistance> and bash-completion is there
[04:04] <wylde> hmm
[04:04] <EvilResistance> oh wait there it is
[04:04] <EvilResistance> yeah, it may be a bug in 'killall'
[04:05] <EvilResistance> not bash-completion
[04:05]  * EvilResistance was in ZSH ;p
[04:07] <EvilResistance> wylde:  do you think this exists in gnome-terminal?
[04:07]  * EvilResistance has to ask
[04:08] <wylde> not just gnome-terminal, same issue in xterm and tty1
[04:08] <EvilResistance> right, which makes it bash-centric
[04:08] <EvilResistance> give me a few seconds
[04:11] <EvilResistance> i'm adding that this is filed against bash-completion, but i may also file this against psmisc, and add additional details for psmisc
[04:12] <wylde> alrighty, thanks :)
[04:14] <wylde> bahaha looks like he was kubuntu too, and I only see that because he made a mistake with apt-cache policy
[04:15] <EvilResistance> damn it, i cant write correctly
[04:15] <EvilResistance> validated got autocorrected to invalidated
[04:16] <wylde> LOL
[04:16] <EvilResistance> whatever
[04:16]  * EvilResistance shrugs
[04:17] <EvilResistance> the package is 'Opinion' against gnome-terminal, but is filed against bash-completion and psmisc
[04:17] <EvilResistance> (psmisc for killall, if this bug is confirmed in any terminal emulator, should be marked 'confirmed')
[04:17] <EvilResistance> (and in any shell, including zsh
[04:17] <wylde> ahh alrighty I see.
[04:19] <EvilResistance> but as well, it may be an additional bug that needs separate filing
[04:19] <EvilResistance> actually i lied it should  be marked as confirmed
[04:21] <wylde> could possibly need to go upstream?
[04:22] <EvilResistance> for psmisc, possibly, but i'd not mark it as triageable
[04:22] <EvilResistance> i'm going to determine a potential priority for it, and poke a bugcontroller
[04:22] <wylde> heh alrighty.
[04:24] <EvilResistance> it may be either low or medium...
[04:26] <EvilResistance> wylde:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance
[04:26] <EvilResistance> against psmisc (in this case 'killall' command)
[04:26] <EvilResistance> what would you say the importance should be?
[04:26] <wylde> ahh I see
[04:27]  * EvilResistance wants your opinion now :P
[04:27] <wylde> lol, I'll do some reading :) then give you one :P
[04:27] <EvilResistance> well its not hard to tell
[04:27] <EvilResistance> that's an outline of what bug severity (low, medium, etc.) should be against packages
[04:28] <EvilResistance> i'm going to say low, but meh
[04:28] <wylde> I'd say low, it's basically annoying and not going to really affect the system.
[04:28] <EvilResistance> agreed.
[04:29] <EvilResistance> bugcontrol members:  LP Bug 994189.  To change: affects:psmisc: Severity change to 'Low'.  Status of 'Confirmed' is valid as it has been confirmed by myself and wylde.
[04:29] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 994189 in psmisc "killall incorrect tab completion" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/994189
[04:30] <wylde> sounds good to me
[04:31] <EvilResistance> yeah, that's my poke to bugcontrol to change the severity.  we can't, they can.
[04:31] <wylde> :)
[04:31] <wylde> could always subscribe them hehe
[04:32] <EvilResistance> nah, they're a subset of the bug squad and the bugs team
[04:32] <EvilResistance> they're just a group with more privileges
[04:33] <EvilResistance> we shouldn't subscribe them to anything, we poke them here
[04:33] <EvilResistance> same if we think a bug needs 'Triaged' status
[04:33] <EvilResistance> bugcontrol has to be poked, and the triage system says to poke here if you're not already bugcontrol
[04:33] <EvilResistance> (which we arent)
[04:33] <wylde> ahh alrighty. I'll keep that in mind, I did however subscribe the alsa team to a bug last week :)
[04:34] <EvilResistance> wylde:  that's an upstream group though
[04:34] <EvilResistance> :P
[04:34] <EvilResistance> that's a different story
[04:34] <wylde> hehe yep
[04:34] <EvilResistance> (although be careful subscribing other groups to bugs...
[04:34] <wylde> yeah I wouldn't do it all the time.
[04:34]  * EvilResistance returns to what he was doing prior to bugsquad stuff today,  which was coding
[04:35]  * wylde blares "codemonkey" on the stereo!
[04:37] <wylde> oh, and thanks for the assistance EvilResistance  :)
[04:38] <EvilResistance> mhm
[06:59] <wylde> I confirmed Bug #995747 , which 'seems' to be caused by  one line of code in the "external tools>>remove trailing spaces"     sed 's/[[:blank:]]*$//'
[06:59] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 995747 in gedit "Gedit: Remove trailing spaces feature removes last line." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/995747
[07:59] <wylde> ok the problems not the sed >.<
[08:16] <wylde> I'm also not sure if this needs to go upstream?
[12:11] <emper0r> hi i'm new.. where is a list to see package for adoption or requesting for help or wherever call . ?
[12:16] <penguin42> emper0r: Well, the bug list on launcpad.net you should be able to find stuff requested for packaging, but there are loads of bugs on there - what are you after doing?
[12:19] <emper0r> i'm try to start help, seeking some littles and easy issues to can adapt here.. and after experience increasing my scope. particulary python/qt problems :|
[12:20] <emper0r> sorry by my english.
[12:52] <penguin42> emper0r: That's OK, so if you know python/qt why don't you look at packages that use it, and look at their lists of bugs?
[12:54] <emper0r> ok... that list exactly where is it?
[12:55] <emper0r> btw, that means exactly..  triage in othwer words?
[12:58] <penguin42> emper0r: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu    well you can triage if you want, but you can also help fix stuff
[13:24] <ersi> emper0r: If you're a Pythonista, maybe this is something that'd interest you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Python/FoundationsQPythonVersions
[14:22] <penguin42> seeing a few people saying that apport is crashing in ubuntu.py add_hooks_info
[16:57] <jtaylor> lucid user here for some quick -proposed verification?
[16:57] <jtaylor> bug 986279
[16:57] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 986279 in hg-git "can't clone the repo: ValueError: need more than 1 value to unpack" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/986279
[19:12] <GraemeLion> If I don't have the ability to set a bug triaged, can I request it here?  Or.. an even odder question..
[19:12] <GraemeLion> The previous version of a software has a bug.  The current version does not, but the current version is supplied in a different package.  Is that bug valid?
[19:12] <micahg> GraemeLion: yes
[19:12] <micahg> GraemeLion: yes to your first question about triage :)
[19:12] <greg-g> GraemeLion: link for the second issue?
[19:13] <GraemeLion> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tf/+bug/985712
[19:13] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 985712 in tf "when run inside a screen session, tf loses the buffer on resizing" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[19:13] <GraemeLion> tinyfugue (tf) and tinyfugue version5 (tf5) are two different packages
[19:14] <GraemeLion> tf5 does not contain this bug
[19:15] <greg-g> GraemeLion: odd, why are there separate packages?
[19:15] <micahg> GraemeLion: yes, valid for tf since it's still in quantal
[19:15] <GraemeLion> micahg: Okay, makes sense :D
[19:15] <GraemeLion> greg-g: Heck of a question that one.
[19:16] <GraemeLion> I have no idea, though.  There likely shouldn't be two packages here.
[19:16] <micahg> looks like tf should be removed in Debian (different maintainers though)
[19:16] <GraemeLion> And in fact, tf5 is symlinked to tf as an alternative.
[19:18]  * micahg sends a mail
[19:18] <greg-g> thanks micahg
[19:19] <greg-g> micahg: over my pay grade ;)
[19:19] <GraemeLion> Heh.  I just picked a package I was familiar with to see if it had bugs.  Was going to try to potentially fix it if necessary
[19:20] <micahg> ah, right...tf5 is still a beta, that might be why :)
[19:20]  * micahg decides not to send the e-mail
[19:20] <GraemeLion> micahg: It's been a beta for a good long while, though
[19:20] <micahg> yes, that's true
[19:20] <GraemeLion> It might only be a beta because Ken Keys dropped off the map 5 years ago :D
[19:24] <GraemeLion> Anyways, I recommend it as a low.  Workaround exists.
[20:02] <Robint91> hi all
[21:14] <wylde>  I'm thinking Bug #996090  may be a support request but I'd like another opinion since I'm not 100% positive the following comand would clear up the issue 'sudo dpkg --clear-avail && sudo apt-get update'
[21:14] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 996090 in ubuntu "dpkg error on dist-upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/996090
[21:15] <wylde> command*
[21:17] <Resistance> it's a support request, but support requests arent bugs
[21:18] <Resistance> from the bugs guides: Status: Invalid: This should be used if the reported problem is not a bug at all ...
[21:18] <Resistance> so i'm marking it as invalid, but if someone else thinks otherwise, feel free to reopen it
[21:19]  * Resistance shall return later


[03:01] <zdsl> hello
[03:44] <jalrnc> hello, is anyone experiencing problems with the ubuntu wiki? I'm not able to save pages after editing... preview works fine though.
[05:36] <GeorgeDeka> hi all
[06:02] <jsgotangco> wassup
[06:02] <jsgotangco> gimme some docteam luv
[06:06] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[06:06] <jsgotangco> i will be talking to myself
[06:06] <jsgotangco> at least the logs are getting this
[06:06] <jsgotangco> there are a lot of discussions on the list and mostly are enthusiastic about the docteam projects
[06:06] <jsgotangco> but how come no one is pulling docs from the existing svn
[06:07] <jsgotangco> i can only see very few commits t the moment and its mostly minor changes
[06:07] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[06:07] <jsgotangco> am i seeing a pattern
[06:12] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[06:12] <jsgotangco> i will check the logs first maybe something is being cooked
[07:56] <jsgotangco> hmm
[07:57] <froud> African Greetings
[07:58] <jsgotangco> hi froud
[07:58] <froud> morn
[07:58] <jsgotangco> i see enrico checked on things
[07:59] <froud> sure, he is a bit busy but we can always count on him
[07:59] <froud> hows your kwick guide doing
[07:59] <jsgotangco> froud, im committing a draft you might want to see it
[08:00] <froud> yeah, cool
[08:00] <jsgotangco> ive taken consideration of the nature of the quick guide
[08:00] <jsgotangco> you're right merging would be horrible
[08:00] <froud> good, commit often is better, that wasy we can collabortate easier
[08:01] <jsgotangco> im doing stuff on aboutkubuntu.xml as well but i will commit them later when i make some comments
[08:01] <froud> ok
[08:02] <jsgotangco> ill be installing qemu later so i can get screens of plain kubuntu
[08:03] <jsgotangco> check how it works
[08:03] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, just use the livecd, it is easier and (AFAIK) looks the same
[08:04] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[08:04] <Burgundavia> thus would you start with qemu -cdrom kbuntu.iso
[08:04] <jsgotangco> ok i'll download it
[08:04] <Burgundavia> now that is very very slow
[08:04] <Burgundavia> my 2500+ takes about 15 minutes to boot any livecde
[08:04] <jsgotangco> i havent slept that much so im a bit tired i've watched the new pope
[08:17] <jsgotangco> http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/index.php?p=518
[08:17] <jsgotangco> haha
[08:18] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, do you know how to leave a message for your svn commits? Makes it easier to say what has changed
[08:22] <jsgotangco> hmmm
[08:23] <jsgotangco> there is no such thing as than on esvn
[08:23] <jsgotangco> i maybe wrong
[08:23] <jsgotangco> wait
[08:25] <jsgotangco> oh ok i know how now
[08:25] <jsgotangco> thanks for reminding
[08:25] <jsgotangco> i wasnt told about doing messages on commits
[08:32] <Burgundavia> -m (AFAIR) on the command line
[08:32] <Burgundavia> sorry, I have never used esvn
[08:32] <Burgundavia> it must pop something up
[08:32] <froud> jsgotangco: when you commit you have a large text field for your message
[08:33] <jsgotangco> i got it on esvn now
[08:34] <jsgotangco> have you seen the linuxjournal article on ubuntu
[08:34] <froud> no link
[08:34] <jsgotangco> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8253
[08:35] <jsgotangco> "Ubuntu's sponsor, Canonical Ltd., has the necessary funding and a history of succeeding quickly and efficiently."
[08:35] <froud> dunno what history that woul dbe
[08:35] <froud> I dont think Marks success with Thwarte should be factored here
[08:37] <jsgotangco> i know
[08:37] <jsgotangco> unless Ubuntu becomes so mainstream it becomes a Redhat in a few years
[08:37] <froud> And I think that people forget that it is community project sometimes
[08:37] <jsgotangco> but thats a big gamble
[08:37] <jsgotangco> yeah
[08:37] <jsgotangco> Ubuntu != Mark
[08:38] <froud> too much attention goes towhat Mark and Canonical wnat
[08:38] <jsgotangco> he's the hogfather though
[08:38] <jsgotangco> well mark's a businessman
[08:38] <froud> yeah, but to succeed, Ubuntu needs community acceptance
[08:39] <froud> and must remain with the community
[08:39] <Burgundavia> we use zwiki, no?
[08:39] <froud> no idea
[08:39] <jsgotangco> i believe so
[08:39] <Burgundavia> ok
[08:40] <Burgundavia> ugh
[08:40] <jsgotangco> i want to react on the article
[08:40] <jsgotangco> hehe
[08:40] <Burgundavia> their issue tracker sucks
[08:42] <jeffsch> nice to see ubuntu is growing in popularity. I guess that means the doc team will be growing too... the more users, the more people wanting to contribute
[08:43] <froud> yep, that is the bonus
[08:43] <Burgundavia> ahh, software isn't perfect yet
[08:43] <Burgundavia> I could scream
[08:44] <froud> Burgundavia: software never is
[08:44] <Burgundavia> spent 1/2 hour arguing with my brother about why sepearation of programs is a good thing
[08:44] <jsgotangco> we're growing
[08:44] <jsgotangco> but who's pulling the docs from svn
[08:44] <Burgundavia> then I check me email
[08:44] <Burgundavia> and more crap to deal with
[08:44] <Burgundavia> then I check my WP wathclist, more crap to deal with
[08:45] <Burgundavia> and then I see zwiki's issue tracker and I almost kill myself
[08:45] <jsgotangco> i've been reviewing the docs everyday and i rarely see big changes
[08:45] <jsgotangco> shouldnt we start doing more stuff now
[08:45] <Burgundavia> we should
[08:45] <Burgundavia> I have been lazy and haven't done anything
[08:45] <froud> jsgotangco: I have an improved outline of the usr guide in works
[08:46] <jsgotangco> i mean
[08:46] <froud> jsgotangco: I have a gubuntu / kubuntu isnatllation guide in the works
[08:46] <jsgotangco> the lists looks like we're incredibly busy
[08:46] <froud> jsgotangco: it is to be expected
[08:46] <jsgotangco> but i only see few doing action
[08:46] <froud> expect it
[08:46] <froud> not many people will contribute via commits
[08:46] <jsgotangco> ill just keep silent and commit
[08:47] <froud> yes that is the way forward
[08:47] <froud> actions
[08:47] <froud> do
[08:47] <froud> comiit
[08:47] <froud> get to the finish line
[08:47] <froud> yes
[08:47] <jsgotangco> true
[08:47] <froud> I see it time and again
[08:48] <jsgotangco> its becoming like election time
[08:48] <jsgotangco> popularity posts ugghhh
[08:48] <jsgotangco> i hate it
[08:48] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i dont mind im having a bad time either
[08:48] <froud> jsgotangco: you just focus on the kwick guide
[08:48] <jsgotangco> froud, sure am will do this no turning back
[08:48] <Burgundavia> focus on what you are passionate about and ignore the fools (like me)
[08:48] <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you're cool to me
[08:49] <jsgotangco> i like constructive bitching
[08:49] <froud> Burgundavia: how about some patches on the FAQ
[08:49] <froud> school run
[08:49] <froud> brb
[08:50] <jeffsch> I am working on a style guide. The initial doc plan for it is almost done
[08:50] <Burgundavia> cool
[08:50] <jeffsch> we will need a style guide for all those new writers we'll be getting :-)
[08:50] <mdke> sigh
[08:51] <jsgotangco> right
[08:52] <jsgotangco> i was looking at kde documentation last night
[08:52] <jsgotangco> it was so clean and so professional
[08:52] <jsgotangco> you think the kde foundation hires people to do that?
[08:53] <jsgotangco> but their screenshots are so outdated i noticed
[09:00] <Kinnison> Morning all
[09:01] <jsgotangco> hi Kinnison
[09:02] <froud> jeffsch: commit the document
[09:02] <froud> jeffsch: do you have a commit account
[09:02] <froud> morn Kinnison , when can we expect some docs from you
[09:02] <jeffsch> i will commit tomorrow. I am tired and want to check it over before committing
[09:02] <froud> jeffsch: ok
[09:03] <jeffsch> I also want to make a couple of wiki pages to support discussion and decision making for the document
[09:03] <froud> fair enough
[09:04] <jsgotangco> weee
[09:04] <jsgotangco> we need that
[09:04] <froud> most important person on the team :-)
[09:05] <froud> his way or the highway
[09:05] <jsgotangco> we need a dictator
[09:05] <froud> jeffsch: what do you think
[09:05] <jeffsch> haha... in my dreams
[09:05] <jsgotangco> no a benevolent dictator
[09:05] <jsgotangco> hehe
[09:05] <froud> no I am serious
[09:05] <jsgotangco> or a docteam pope
[09:06] <jeffsch> I hope there is more than one person interested in doing that type of thing
[09:06] <froud> jeffsch: you wanna be editor and chief
[09:06] <froud> yeah but there must be a head honcho
[09:06] <froud> and you are the person for the job
[09:06] <jeffsch> i wanna be world ruler, but I can settle for editor
[09:06] <jsgotangco> woo
[09:06] <jsgotangco> its settled then
[09:07] <froud> Ok now you need to get an editing team that will conform to your specs
[09:07] <jeffsch> I was hoping to be a bit more collaborative...
[09:07] <froud> and ohh.... get a wip it may come in handy
[09:07] <jsgotangco> whips are good
[09:08] <froud> I think Kinnison may have some intersting toys to lend you
[09:08] <froud> jeffsch: it will be collaborative
[09:08] <froud> but I think we need a person who is in charge of it
[09:08] <froud> since you are doing a style guide you are th emost qualified
[09:09] <froud> I love my editors
[09:09] <froud> as every writer should
[09:10] <jsgotangco> i can make you coffee
[09:10] <jsgotangco> editors like coffee dont they
[09:10] <froud> Burgundavia gives great foot massages
[09:10] <Burgundavia> huh?
[09:10] <jsgotangco> just dont be like J. Jonah Jameson
[09:10] <Burgundavia> where did you dig up that dirt?
[09:10] <froud> we wont tell you want Kinnison is good at, leave it as a surprise
[09:11] <jsgotangco> jeffsch seems overwhelmed
[09:11] <jeffsch> my attention is wandering to The Daily Show on TV...
[09:11] <Kinnison> froud: Trust me, you don't want documentation from me
[09:11] <froud> Kinnison: oh yes we do
[09:12] <jsgotangco> sure we do
[09:12] <Kinnison> Burgundavia: back me up here
[09:12] <jsgotangco> sissy
[09:13] <Kinnison> again I say, trust me, you don't want documentation from me
[09:13] <jsgotangco> you dont want an angry african eh
[09:13] <froud> Kinnison: why not?
[09:14] <froud> Kinnison: you are part of the furniture here, so may as well
[09:14] <jsgotangco> we can always throw Kinnison for wiki work
[09:14] <jsgotangco> he'd love that
[09:15] <Kinnison> all adds up to a sucky person to give doc jobs to :-)
[09:15] <froud> Ah ha we have a coder
[09:15] <jsgotangco> what are you doing in Launchpad?
[09:15] <froud> Kinnison: hows your python?
[09:15] <Kinnison> froud: it works
[09:16] <froud> and jscript?
[09:16] <Kinnison> it doesn't
[09:16] <froud> Hmmm
[09:16] <jsgotangco> 1 of 2 ain't bad
[09:17] <Kinnison> If you want to look at the sorts of things I do write, look at my arch repository
[09:18] <Kinnison> http://arch.digital-scurf.org/
[09:19] <jsgotangco> aranha, dists, ksp-tools, onak
[09:19] <jsgotangco> this is all klingon to me
[09:19] <Liz> greetings all
[09:20] <froud> linux chick
[09:20] <jsgotangco> ok i see bazaar thats one thing i only recognized
[09:20] <froud> howzit
[09:20] <jsgotangco> hi Liz
[09:20] <Liz> good thanks..how are you both?
[09:20] <Kinnison> jsgotangco: aranha is my baby
[09:21] <jsgotangco> froud, aye
[09:21] <Liz> nooo..not work
[09:21] <Liz> heh
[09:21] <froud> Liz: how about the user guide
[09:21] <jsgotangco> Kinnison, ahh...im not to familiar with this but what does it do?
[09:21] <Kinnison> jsgotangco: aranha is a web app dev platform
[09:21] <Liz> theres more additions to make?
[09:21] <jsgotangco> most of the things you do are for bazaar?
[09:21] <Liz> i need to svn the thing first
[09:22] <Liz> let me go do that first
[09:22] <Kinnison> jsgotangco: No, I keep my code in bazaar
[09:22] <froud> Liz: ok let us know when you are ready
[09:22] <froud> OK I am now in work mode, c ya later
[09:22] <jsgotangco> i see i understand now
[09:23] <jsgotangco> isn't aranha portuguese
[09:24] <jsgotangco> arachnid or something
[09:28] <jsgotangco> jeffsch, do you think its ok to edit global.net if i need to add some more
[09:28] <jsgotangco> or do i ask froud-work first
[09:29] <froud-work> jsgotangco: you should do so if you feel that it is warranted
[09:32] <Liz> ok its loading now
[09:38] <jsgotangco> yay
[09:51] <Liz> gonna go make some dinner while this is loading
[09:51] <Liz> bbiab
[09:51] <Liz> hi sivang
[09:51] <sivang> He Liz
[09:51] <sivang> Liz: 'sup?
[09:51] <Liz> dinner..bbiab
[09:51] <sivang> Liz: laterz
[09:54] <jeffsch> ok, I'm off to bed. cyall later.
[09:54] <jsgotangco> night
[09:57] <Liz> bbl
[11:12] <jsgotangco> later people im going out
[11:12] <froud-work> c ya
[03:03] <sivang> Has anyone seen enrico lately?
[03:05] <Burgundavia> I think he showed up yesterday
[03:05] <sivang> Burgundavia: eh, I see, what's up? how's documentationg going?
[03:05] <sivang> hey li
[03:06] <Liz> hey sivang
[03:06] <Liz> how are you?
[03:06] <sivang> Liz: fine, busy , but cool :)
[03:06] <sivang> Liz: are you going to attend UDU?
[03:06] <Liz> udu?
[03:06] <Liz> whats UDU?
[03:07] <Burgundavia> UbuntuDownUnder
[03:07] <Burgundavia> I wish I could be there
[03:07] <Burgundavia> dammit
[03:07] <Liz> oh yeah..its in sydney
[03:07] <Liz> im waiting for the "where, time, how much"
[03:08] <Liz> but so far, i havent seen anything
[03:08] <Burgundavia> next week
[03:08] <Burgundavia> free once you get there
[03:08] <Burgundavia> as for location see the udu wiki
[03:13] <Liz> ahhh..is that where it is
[03:13] <Liz> they are having an installfest there as well
[03:13] <Liz> i should volunteer
[03:28] <Liz> okjust signed up
[03:29] <Liz> i dont think they realised that the 25th is anzac day down here
[03:32] <Burgundavia> anzac day is a holiday no?
[03:32] <Burgundavia> much like remembrance/veterans day?
[03:39] <Liz> yes
[03:40] <Liz> it shouldnt matter too much
[03:46] <Liz> sigh..between classes and it taking me an hour to get up there
[03:46] <Liz> its going to be a fun week
[03:46] <Liz> and on that note
[03:46] <Liz> im off to bed
[03:46] <Liz> nite all
[08:40] <mdke> evenin claude
[08:40] <claude> hi
[08:41] <claude> much traffic these days on the list
[08:41] <mdke> indeed
[08:41] <mdke> lots of words
[08:41] <mdke> lots of ideas too :)
[08:41] <claude> when you're off 2 or 3 days, it takes a lot of times to get the train :)
[08:41] <claude> yeah
[08:42] <mdke> yeah i bet
[08:42] <mdke> claude, gmane can be useful to follow threads
[08:43] <claude> for now i will be most an observer
[08:43] <mdke> claude, we are working on a new method for translations: we hope to get some new translations into hoary (e.g. of quickguide through rosetta)
[08:43] <mdke> i am doing a write up of what we hope to do this evening, and will post on the wiki/list
[08:44] <claude> rosetta is still so bugged :(
[08:44] <claude> what about integration into lang-pack ?
[08:44] <mdke> not a chance ;)
[08:44] <mdke> afaik the lang-packs are really centered around interfaces rather than documentation. but you could speak to pitti about it if you like
[08:45] <claude> you talked with Carlos about it ?
[08:45] <mdke> yes
[08:45] <mdke> at length ;)
[08:45] <claude> he he
[08:46] <mdke> i'll try and finish the writeup tonight
[08:47] <claude> i think that all documentation should be exempted of freezing
[08:47] <claude> is it against debian rules ?
[08:47] <mdke> well the main documentation has to be frozen really, or translation is difficult IMO
[08:48] <mdke> claude, but I don't think translation documentation uploads will be a problem
[08:48] <mdke> carlos thought they wouldn't be
[08:48] <claude> hope so
[08:48] <mdke> if we sort out the logistics, we'll contact mdz
[08:49] <mdke> brb
[08:49] <claude> k
[09:00] <mdke> back
[10:05] <mdke> claude, have updated the l18n page, if there are any inclarities or inaccuracies please let me know
[10:23] <claude> mdke: need to review, but i think all this is still too complicated
[10:24] <mdke> claude, tell me more
[10:25] <claude> about special characters, i did'nt use entities when translating in French
[10:25] <claude> i left them in UTF-8
[10:26] <mdke> fine
[10:27] <mdke> claude, what is too complicated?
[10:27] <claude> mdke: not your explanations, but the entire process
[10:28] <mdke> there is not much more we can simplify it
[10:28] <claude> not sure about the "make po" or "make pot"
[10:28] <claude> think the i18n.sh script all this stuff
[10:28] <claude> must check with froud
[10:28] <mdke> froud will have to check that, I know nothing about it
[10:30] <claude> maybe there should be a document for translators
[10:30] <claude> and another one for what happens "behind the scene"
[10:30] <mdke> claude, to be honest, nothing on that page is for translators really, all they have to know is how rosetta works, and there are separate pages for that
[10:32] <claude> k, maybe this should be more clear on that page
[10:32] <mdke> yes you are probably right
[10:32] <mdke> i'll add an introduction
[10:32] <claude> unless we risk to frighten i18n (or l10n) volunteers
[10:33] <mdke> yeah ok
[10:41] <mdke> claude, added an introduction
[10:42] <mdke> thanks for noticing that
[10:42] <claude> great