John Clarke: The Art of Fighting and the Pursuit of Excellence | Lex Fridman Podcast #143

The following is a conversation with John Clark. He's a friend, a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt, former MMA fighter, and at least in my opinion, one of the great UFC cornerman coaches to listen to. And also, he's my current Jiu-Jitsu coach at Broadway Jiu-Jitsu in South Boston. He was once, for a time, a philosophy major in college, and is now, I would say, a kind of practicing philosopher. Opinionated, brilliant, and someone I always enjoy talking to, even when, especially when, we disagree, which we do often. He's definitely someone I can see talking to many times on this podcast. In fact, he hosts a new podcast of his own called, Please Allow Me. Quick mention of each sponsor, followed by some thoughts related to the episode. Thank you to Theragun, the device I use for post-workout muscle recovery. Magic Spoon, low-carb, keto-friendly cereal that I think is delicious. 8sleep, a mattress that cools itself and gives me yet another reason to enjoy sleep. And Cash App, the app I use to send money to friends. Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that martial arts, especially Jiu-Jitsu and Judo, have been a big part of my growth as a human being. So I think I will talk to a few martial artists on occasion on this podcast. I hope that is of interest to you. I won't talk to people who are simply great fighters or great athletes, but people who have a philosophy that I find to be interesting and worth exploring, even if I disagree with parts or most of it. I like alternating between historians and computer scientists, fighters and biologists, and between totally different world views and personalities like Elon Musk and Michael Malice. This world, to me, is fascinating because of the diversity of weirdness that is human civilization. I love the weird and the brilliant and hope you join me on the journey of exploring both. If you don't like an episode, skip it. For an OCD person like myself, sometimes not listening to a podcast episode is an act of courage. It's like not finishing a book even though you're 80% done. Try it sometimes. Listen to ones you like and don't listen to the ones you don't like. I know, it's profound advice. If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with Five Stars on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman. And now, here's my conversation with John Clark. You ready for this? I've been ready for this my whole life. All right. I was thinking of doing a Kerouac-style road trip across the United States after this whole COVID thing lifts. You ever take a trip like that? I've done a handful of long-distance driving trips up and down the East Coast, but also from the West Coast back to the East Coast and then returning to California. So, I've definitely done my fair share of driving in this country. Do you have the longing for the great American road trip? I think there are so many things that I've been lucky enough to see in the world that I now at this point in my life realize there are tons of things that I need to see here in this country. And a road trip could potentially be the best way to see them. I think to do it effectively, you need an amount of time where you can be as leisurely as possible. There's no deadline and there's no, I've got to make it from Chicago to St. Louis by sundown to get to this place at this time. I think you really need to be able to take your time and let the road take you where you need to go. It feels like you need a mission though, ultimately. There's a reason you need to be in San Francisco. That's like the Kerouac thing. You have to meet somebody somewhere loosely in a few weeks. And then it's the, as you struggle on towards the end of the mission, you meet weird characters that get in your way, but ultimately sort of create an experience. I think having a loose deadline is good, but that's a beginning and an end point. And what I mean is I don't want to have to be, all right, we're leaving say Boston on Sunday night. Let's get to New York by Monday morning. And then from New York, we're going to go to Philly and we've got to be in Philly at four. A vague beginning and end is fine, but I think having very strict guidelines in between will rob you of certain experiences along the way. If you have a timeframe to get from Philly to Indianapolis and some awesome shit starts to happen in Philly, do you really want to have to cut it short because you've got to be in Indianapolis by sunup? Why do you have to be anywhere by any time for any reason really? Well, plans change all the time. Exactly. But if we're talking about having a mission or the type of road trip, I just think it would be best to have it as loose and flexible as possible. I don't know. You got to make hard deadlines and then break them. Totally change the plans, disappoint people, break promises. That's the way of life. Somebody's waiting for you in St. Louis and all of a sudden you fell in love with a biker in New York. I don't know. I don't know what you're up to. I can appreciate that. But on a trip like that, I feel like a trip with deadlines is for a different point in your life. And at this point in my life, I don't want any of the deadlines because it's not about meeting someone and disappointing them in St. Louis. It's about me not disappointing myself. You want to have enough time in what you're doing to make sure that you get the full breadth of every experience that you encounter. How would you fully experience a place? I don't think I've actually fully experienced Boston. If you were showing up to a city for a week on this road trip, what would you do? I'm going to answer that in two parts. A few years ago, I had an opportunity to move out of Boston. The thing that kept me here, no question about it, was the fact that I felt like I had a contract with my students. I felt like a great many of them took a leap of faith by joining my gym and asking me to teach them what I know. When I had an opportunity to leave Boston, I thought of those people, and I thought, I want to fulfill my obligation to them. Because I made a decision to stay here, I then that summer made a decision to endear myself to the city of Boston. I tried to find lots and lots of different things to do. I can tell you that the coolest thing that I found to do in this city is the MFA, where they have on Friday nights, they'll have different exhibits and stuff. They'll have little beer carts and food tents, and you can go do a painting class off on the side. Very cool night of things to do. In general, whenever I'm in a new city, I try not to pay attention to Google, and I try not to do anything that I find on a travel site. The best thing to do is to walk out of your hotel or wherever it is you're staying and find the most normal looking bar, have a drink and talk to a bartender. So the people. The people. And then you can experience that town the way that they experience it. Even in a city where there are tons of tourist attractions, locals probably visit the same tourist attractions when they have visitors come from out of town, but you want to see how they view those places and how they visit them. And you want to go to eat where they're going to eat. For the most part, the North End is not a place where I would take someone and say, hey, this is Boston's, the pinnacle of Boston dining, because it's very touristy. There are a handful of really good restaurants there, but I want to know where the... I want to go to Bogie's Place. I want to know the down low spots where- The hell's Bogie's Place? It's like a little steakhouse in the back of Jam Curly's. Exactly. It's like a shitty bar? Jam Curly's? It's just a bar with bar food, but I think that- In South Boston? It is in Boston, yeah. It's in South Boston? No, it's in the downtown area. I don't know what the neighborhoods are called here, honestly, because they have an area called Downtown Boston, and I don't even know what the hell that means. I think it's near the financial district. Where's Southie? Because I've heard about this Southie. Southie is South Boston. But is there a difference between South Boston and Southie? No, it's the same thing. No, but like the mythical Southie. I think the mythical Southie is something that's long gone now, and the term now actually is Sobo. Oh no. Yeah. It's changed. What? Who took over what? What's the Goodwill hunting personality? That's Southie, isn't it? Strong accent, those badass dudes. I came here right at the end of what was South Boston. So when I got, and my gym is in South Boston, the neighborhood was just starting to change. So I think as gentrification happened and they started building more luxury condominiums, they were buying all these old businesses out, all the mom and pop businesses. And I think that kind of changed the makeup of the community. And it wasn't only because there was an influx of new young people with disposable income, it's because there's an exodus of the older people who kind of grew up and raised their families there because they were being offered humongous sums of money for their homes that they had bought in the late seventies and early eighties so that they could develop those areas. So you have a combination of the influx of new people and the exodus of the old, and now you just got this totally new neighborhood in its place. What do you love about Boston? Is there a love still for Boston? You certainly have the love of the thing that's gone as well. Yeah. I think, I don't want to pin this on Boston because it's happening in all great cities. As these areas become gentrified, what's happening is the personality and the character of the neighborhood is just being run out. And I have nothing against people coming in and making money and things like that. But when you do it at the expense of the culture, the character, and the personality of the neighborhood, you're kind of standing on the shoulders of giants. These are the people that came here and built these areas up. And it happens here in Boston. It happens all over New York. It happens on the West coast. So what I love about Boston is not nearly as romantic as what it might've been 15 years ago and what I used to love about New York. What I love about Boston is that it's walkable. The food scene is on the rise here. But I think you're hard pressed to find the charm that people think of when they think of old Boston and old New England city. Yeah. I see it differently. People sometimes criticize like MIT for the thing that it is now. But I think it is always like that. I tend to prefer to carry the flame of the greatness, the greatest moments of its history and enjoy the echoes of that in the halls of MIT. And the same way in Boston, you think about the history and that history lives on in the few individuals. You can't just look around where Boston is now and be like, what has Boston become? I think it was always carried by a minority of individuals. I think we kind of look back in history and think times were greater in a certain kind of dimension back then. But just because we remember, this is a ridiculous non-data driven assertion of mine, is we remember just the brightest stars of that history. And so we romanticize it. But I think if you look around now, those special people are still living in Boston for which Boston will be remembered as a great city in like 50 years. I think you're probably right. But isn't there some sort of theory about the point that there's like a certain age in your life where things resonate differently to you? I think they've done studies where most people stop searching for new music after age 19. Most dads you see like wearing super old clothes, that's the style of the time period of the last great part of their life. So there's an evolution in people and it could also be the memories of where they live. When I was 17, of course, my neighborhood was the best then because I was having the most fun. And we always kind of look at things through that tint, I think. And you're right. And I don't think there's anything wrong with the way cities are evolving now. It's just not. I prefer the time of like a mom and pop store, not a fabricated like gastro pub that could just be like on a four lane super highway on your way out of Epcot Center. And it's actually owned by like some conglomerate. But there's still the special places. This takes us back to the road trip is maybe I tend to romanticize the experiences of like the diners in the middle of nowhere. What would you say makes for like, it feels like life is made up of these experiences that maybe on paper seem mundane, but are actually somehow give you a chance to pause and reflect on life with like a certain kind of people, whether like really close friends or complete strangers, maybe alcohol is involved in the middle of nowhere. It seems like road trip facilitates that if you allow it to. Like, what do you think makes for those kinds of experience? Have you had any? I think in the context of a road trip, I think it's like hyper localization. And I think it is those experiences along the way with people and the people that you're with will call the experiences differently depending on the person. The road trip you took was with somebody else or alone? So I've driven up and down the East Coast several times. When I drove from LA to New York, my friend was on the run from the cops. Yeah. So we were trying to get out of- Traffic tickets? Yeah, traffic tickets. Allegedly. Yeah, allegedly. We were trying to get out of LA because he was going to have to go away for a little while. So we drove from LA and we just, we're young kids, we had no idea what we were doing. And we drove East and then we had an unbelievable trip, mostly because we didn't really have a destination. We didn't really have a timeframe, thank goodness, because he got arrested again in Pennsylvania. So we got kind of stuck there. And then we drove back to LA when he got out in Pennsylvania. But all the stops along the way were kind of like weird things. Like, you have no money, right? So you're finding that like a little diamond in the rough place to eat, the diner you talk about, like that place. I once was in, where was I? I think I was in Buenos Aires. And the guy that I was with, he said, I know this quaint little spot around the corner. And I was young, I was like 25. And I thought the coolest thing in the world would be to be such a citizen of the world that you know these quaint little spots around the corner in like all these great cities. Like I know where to get this great chicken sandwich in Argentina. I know where to get this great meal in Costa Rica. I know where to get this super local like egg in another country. I just thought that that was really cool. The ability to do that anywhere in the world. Did you get closer with that guy when through the trip? I found that like, I took a trip across the United States with a guy friend of mine. We had different goals. I was searching for meaning in life and he was searching for, what's the politically correct way of phrasing it? But just basically trying to sleep with every kind of woman that this world has to offer. What's the difference between those two things? Well, I guess he was searching for the different kinds of meanings. I mean, I still think that you can't find meaning between a woman's legs, I suppose. Have you tried all of them? But there was a tension there. We grew closer with those experiences, but we've gotten in fights. There was a lot of like literal almost fights. And then we were close and there was like silences, but then we were like brothers. It's this whole weird journey of friendship that we went on. I think anytime you spend that much time in a small space with another person, you're going to have the different parts of the relationship will manifest themselves. You'll have the periods of closeness. You'll have the periods of vulnerability where it's like maybe you're driving through Denver and it's three in the morning and you talk about something you might not have otherwise talked about. You'll have the periods where you don't want to see that motherfucker ever again. And depending, could be because of anything. But the guy that I drove twice with, we're still in contact, we're still buddies. We have very different goals also. But at that point in our lives, we never even contemplated the meaning of life. We were about probably more to the point of the friend that you drove with, we were more about racking up experiences, whatever they were. I want to be able to retell this. Hmm. Stories. Yeah. I want to be able to retell this and it's got to sound cool. Like I don't want to retell a story about, yeah, and then we drove through Alabama and they've got a lovely library and I checked out this book and I'm not interested in retelling that. Do you remember any, well, this is a kid's show. Do you remember any stories that the kids would enjoy from those times that were profound in some kind of way? There were some impactful moments on the beginning of our road trip where we had no money. And as a couple of kids who knew nothing, we literally had to, we stopped in Vegas and we went to Circus Circus at the time they had $3 blackjack and we had like 12 bucks. And my buddy was a kind of a degenerate gambler. So he knew what was up. I was just like kind of stuffing chips in my pockets, making sure we could pay for the gas. And just being at the point, which is like a starting line and like we drove from LA to Vegas, which is only about four hours and being at the starting line and realizing like, we may not even like get off the starting line here. And if we don't, what are we doing? We're going to be in trouble. And we're going to be in trouble. If we don't, what are we doing? We're going to be two guys stuck in Vegas with no money. We can't go West cause you're going to get pinched. We have no money to go East. What the hell are we going to do? We're going to wind up in Vegas. So, you know, that, that was kind of a profound thing where you just, it's a turning, it potentially could have been a turning point in our lives had we not made enough money to continue going East. That's the beautiful thing about road trips when you're broke is like in retrospect, everything turned out fine, but you're facing the complete darkness, the uncertainty of the possibilities laid before you. And like, I don't know if you were confident at that time, but like I was really full of self doubt. Like just like all I could see is all the trajectories where you just screw up your life. Like, what am I doing with my life? I'm a failure, like all these dreams I've had, I've never realized I'm a complete piece of shit. All those kinds of things. I had no concept of consequence. I like, I was, I probably had toxoplasmosis. I had literally no concept of consequence. Immediate gratification was all I cared about. Oh, so existentialist. Yeah. It did not, it did not even enter my mind at, in my like early twenties that anything that I was doing at that point could reverberate for the rest of my life. I think part of me didn't even think I'd make it this far. And so I was not interested in like the long play. I remember thinking like, why should I be acting now in a way that might impact a point in my life I never reach. And yet now you are a man who searches for meaning in life, at least. I would say to put another way, you have, you think deeply about this world and in a philosophical context while also appreciating the violence of hurting other friends of yours, right? On a regular basis. So what, why do you think, I mean, maybe there's a broader question there, but it calls a personal question. It seems that people who fight for prolonged periods of time, like jujitsu people and mixed martial arts people, even military folks, become over time philosophers. What is that? Is that, is there a parallel between fighting and violence and the philosophical depth with which you now have arrived from the starting point of being the full existentialist of like just living in the moment to like being introspective human now? I would say to that, being a soldier or a warrior hundreds of years ago is probably what started the marriage between martial arts and philosophy. If you're constantly under someone else's charge and you're told to go out and walk in a line and, you know, overtake some Germanic tribe somewhere, and that happens all the time, your job is being a soldier. There's, on any given day, you might not come home. So I think that you have to start your day by thinking deeply about how you've lived to that point and the people that are living in and around you and how you've treated them. And I think that probably is what started the marriage of being kind of like a philosophical martial artist. You've got to really like, on a daily basis, take stock of what's going on around you and inside you, because we all suffer with this kind of idea, if today's my last day, did I do it right? And we don't really do it so much nowadays because we're so comfortable, but if we were being marched out to war every day, I think you'd see people live a little bit differently, you know, and you treat the people around you a little bit differently. Do you think there's echoes of that in just even the sport of grappling and jiu-jitsu where you're facing your own mortality? We don't really think of it that way, but... To be honest, I think that a lot of people that train in a martial art in contemporary society, I don't consider them all martial artists. I think just because you train a martial art does not mean you're a martial artist. There are so many people that use martial arts as a form of exercise and like this little piece of self-concept. They use martial arts as a tagline in their Instagram bio, and it's really a form of exercise. It's something they do, it's not something they are, and I think there's a big difference there. There's a bunch of stuff mixed up in there because the Instagram thing is something you do for... It could be something you are for display versus who you are in the private moments of searching and thinking and struggling and all that kind of stuff. Instagram is a surface level layer that much of modern society operates in, which is really problematic because there's that gap between the person you show to the world and the person you are in private life. And if you make majority of your project, of the human project of your few years on this earth, the optimization of the public Instagram profile, then you never develop this private person. But it does seem that if you do jiu-jitsu long enough, it's very difficult not to fall into like this has become a personal journey, an intellectual journey. Because if you get your ass kicked thousands of times, there's a certain point to where that... Maybe it's like a defense mechanism, but that turns into some kind of deeply profound introspective experience versus exercise. It's not yoga. That's true. Yeah. So let me go back first and address the Instagram point, which I think there's a difference between people whose Instagram is intrinsically tied to their profession and they have to put a specific profile out there. And I think in general, people who truthfully, their business is tied to their Instagram profile, I want to exclude them. I think that most people, Instagram is how they want to be seen. And that's not always congruent with who you are. But I think there is a level of dishonesty there. Like this is how I want people to see me. I'm going to put all this stuff in my Instagram bio, but that's really not me. And when you do that, I think it's a little disingenuous and you're right. You're never really going to marry those two things together and it gets tough. Sorry to interrupt. Let me push back on something. This is a good time to address the many flaws of the great and powerful John Clark. Okay. Let's go there because it's interesting. You strive so hard for excellence in your life and for extreme competence that you are visibly and physically off put by people who have not achieved competence. Do you think we should be nicer to the people who are those early, like you mentioned, a person who first picks up an art, becomes vegan, starts doing CrossFit, started doing Jiu-Jitsu for the first time and create that as their, you know, they're struggling through this like, who am I? And they're really overly proud and it's kind of ridiculous. And you in your wise chair of seeing many battles, that you see the ridiculousness of that. I tend to, I'm learning to give those folks, not to mock them and to sort of give them a chance to do their ridiculousness because I think I was that too. Let me first clarify. I want to be clear about what you mean when you say a level of competence. Now, I've never won a world championship. I've never, you know, there are plenty of things in my life where I've not achieved what most people would consider to be the penultimate level of success. Now- That's accomplishments. It's accomplishments. It's ribbons, it's things like that. And it's not that those things don't mean anything to me. And the fact that I haven't in some arenas is something that I want to change, which is, we can talk about that in a second. But, you know, I've never won a world championship. We can talk about that in a second. But I think that there's a difference between the very eager noob of whatever it is they're doing, who does the thing so that they can signal they do the thing. That's a person I have less respect for. So we know each other primarily through jujitsu. Look at a jujitsu tournament. There's this idea that people espouse online. I respect anyone with the guts to get on the mat and put it on the line and sign up for a tournament. That is the biggest load of shit I have ever heard. This is great. Do you know how easy it is for you to put your name on something and pay the registration fee and walk in there? That's not the hard part. That's the easiest part. I don't care if you lose your first match, but I respect the person who signs up for the tournament, registers for the tournament, goes on a diet, loses weight the right way, trains their ass off and does the things properly, and then goes on the mat. The person who simply signs their name on the registration form and jumps on the mat, if they haven't done these other things, they actually have nothing to lose. Because what they've done is they've stepped onto the mat in the ring, in the cage with a bucket full of excuses. Yeah. Sure, you signed up, but you're not really vulnerable because you didn't run, you didn't do this, you didn't do all the things you're supposed to do. The person who eliminates every possible excuse and then steps on the mat and gets their ass kicked in the first round, I have so much more respect for that person than the person who does nothing and maybe on natural ability wins a couple of matches and then writes on Facebook on how I lost to the eventual champion. That's worth zero. That's worth zero. And in that process, what did you learn about yourself? You learned about yourself that you've got a natural level of aptitude for whatever this activity is that you're doing, but you didn't actually learn how to maximize it through training and through dedication and through all these other things. I'm an incredibly interested, novice musician. I like to play bass, but I don't put that on anything. I stink at it. I would really love to be sick at it. I'm currently not, but I'm not running around talking about entering any of those other things. It's for myself and I want to reach a level of competence in that. So the person that you have respect for is a person who takes it fully seriously, takes the effort fully seriously. So for bass, that would be that you agree with yourself that you're going to perform live and just in your own private moments, your private thoughts, you're not going to give yourself an excuse out like, I'm just going to have fun. This is a nice experience. You're going to think, I'm going to try to be the best possible bass player given everything that's going on in my life, but I'm going to do my best and put it all on the line. And if I fail, that's not because I didn't try. It's because I'm a failure. Exactly. And then sit in that sick feeling of like, I'm a failure. But isn't that an important thing to know? No, absolutely. But there's a, that's like the best thing we could be, but sometimes it's fun to lose yourself in the bragging, in the... Yeah. In the lesser ways of life. And I think I'm careful not to, because too many people in my life, when I brought them with like a little candle of a fire of a dream, they would just go like, you know, they would just blow that fire out. That they would dismiss me because they see like, you know, I would say, I've said a lot of ridiculous stuff, but the one, you know, I've always dreamed about like putting, I always dreamed of having this world full of robots. And, you know, every time I would bring these ideas up, they'll be shut down by the different people, by my parents, by, you know, you know, then you need to first get an education. You need to succeed in these dimensions. In order to do all these things, you have to get good grades. You have to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like there's all this stuff that it's indirect or direct ways of blowing out that little ridiculous dream that you present. And it's like, you know, I remember sort of bringing up, I don't know, things like becoming a state champion in wrestling, right? It's a weird dance because of course the coaches will tell, they'll kind of dismiss that. It's like, okay, okay. But at the same time, it feels like in those early days, you have to preserve that little fire. That's like Johnny Ive, I don't know if you know who that is, is a designer at Apple. He was a chief designer. He's behind most iPhone, all that stuff. And he always talked about that he wouldn't bring his ideas to Steve Jobs until they were matured because he would always shit on them. He wanted them to as little babies live for a little bit before they get completely shut down. And I always think about that when I see a beginner sort of bragging on Instagram. You have to be careful. Let them play with that little dream. You know? Are you playing with a little dream that you're nurturing and you're trying to take that little flame and you're trying to create a roaring blaze with it? Or are you playing with the idea of it and behind that there's no substance? It's hard to know the difference. That's what I struggle with. Is it? I don't think it necessarily is. Certainly you're wrong. And when I say Instagram, I don't want to impugn a bunch of strangers, but I have a gym with a lot of members. And I can tell you that the number of years I've been in the gym, when someone comes to me and says, this is my goal, I don't tell them yes or no in general, but I know. I can tell by the way they say it to me, I can thin slice it. I've seen the look on people's faces. And when people start to like, say they want to do X, Y, and Z, I know right off the bat, this person's either going to put an effort in or they're not going to put an effort in. So to me, it's about the effort behind that. If you're busting your ass and you're a new at something and you're brand new, but you're working really hard and you have a series of like moderate successes in that, like, that's the guy I want to champion because that persistence and that grit over time, those successes will no longer be moderate. They'll be huge. But the person who's having moderate success by doing nothing, chances are they'll never learn to put that work in and the successes will never grow. You have an admiration for Mike Tyson. I love him. I was just going to let that sit for a brief moment. Why? I think there's a combination of factors. One is like the timeliness of his career and like the age I was when he like came to prominence, the raw, brutal violence and the raw, brutal honesty when he speaks. I think it's easy for people to hear him or see his life and cast him aside as some simian-esque, like just Cretan scourge on society. But when you hear him speak, like this is not a guy who's unintelligent. This is a guy who knows himself better than probably most of us know ourselves. It's disarming and that's a humongous part of my admiration for him. Who is Mike Tyson? Because it feels like there's similarities between him and you. It feels like there's a violent person in there, but also a really kind person. And they're all like living together in a little house and you're the same. There's a thoughtful person, but there's also a scary, violent person. And they're like having a picnic. They're having a picnic. I think there are dialectical tensions in everyone. These like opposing forces that are constantly pulling at you and at different points in your life, like it's sliding scale. And I think that certainly when I was a younger person, there was a lot more manifestation of the violence and a lot less of the kindness. People who were not as close to me probably saw more of the violent side and only the very close people to me saw like what would pass for the kind side. And now that's sliding in the other direction. And I worry actually sometimes that there could be a situation where I need that old version of me. And he's getting further and further away and I can't call him up if I need him. And that concerns me to a certain degree. The sad aging warrior seeing his greater self fade away, but you still compete. Does that person return? It seems like for Mike Tyson, that person returned at the prospect of competition. It returns, but I've learned better how to manifest it in competition in terms of like the effects that that type of emotion has on you physically in the middle of a competition. So I've better learned how to manifest it in competition. So I've better learned how to utilize that energy. But I think another side effect of this is like having a gym where you're a bigger guy and you're the head instructor, you can't be as mean and violent as you once were because you're also now trying to run a business. And you spend so long, so many years trying not to be mean and to soften your technique a little bit that that all of a sudden just becomes who you are. And I don't necessarily like that. So I've been trying to reclaim that a little bit on the mat. But I think in competition, there has to be an athlete really wants to score the points. A fighter really wants to incapacitate you and put you in a position where they can do their own bidding. And the result in a jujitsu match might just still be two points, but the motivations are very, very different. What do you make of Tyson on Joe Rogan saying that he was aroused by violence? Do you think that's insane? Do you think that's deeply honest for him? And do you think that rings true for many of us, others who practices in different degrees? I can't speak for a lot of people. And I think that it was a brutally honest statement by him. And I think it's something that even if a lot of people feel it, they're not that comfortable admitting it or saying it. But I think there's great joy in landing a flush right hand on someone's jaw and then watching them crumble. You don't even feel it. You ever play baseball as a kid? You can hit a base hit off the end of the bat and it will sting your hands because of the way that you hit it. You can hit a home run and you won't feel anything. And it'll just feel so good in your hands. And that's, I think, one of the joys of physical contact. When you do it the right way, and that goes for all physical contact, when you do it the right way, the physical pleasure you can derive from it and the mental pleasure, it's unparalleled. You see, but that's different. Let me draw a distinction. I'm not... I've had the fortune of being a wrestler. And I would draw a distinction between a very well executed in competition double leg, single leg takedown or a pin. There's some, as an OCD person, there's something so comforting about a well executed pin because it's like two seconds and it's just like everything is flush and nice. And like, it's all clean. I mean, okay, as this OCD person who likes to align, it's just beautiful. Okay, that's good technique. Wrestling also provides you, maybe more than other sports, the feeling of dominating another human. Yes. Of breaking, no, not just of them being very cocky and very powerful. You feel this power of another human being and then you breaking them. And like, I'm not as honest as Mike Tyson. I don't think I've ever sort of looked in the mirror and said that I enjoyed that aspect of it, but it certainly seems like you chase that. So when I was a wrestler in high school, I lost so many matches because of over-aggressiveness. Like, I would pick the top position and let you stand just in front of me. Like, I would pick the top position and let you stand just so that I could do a mat return. And I wasn't trying to return you to the mat. I was actually trying to drive you through the mat and through the ground. It gave me joy to do that. It wasn't like I was trying to just return you to the mat so that I could pin you. You just talked about the dominating another person. I used to look at that as you've got someone who in theory is equally trained and equally skilled as you are, and you're absolutely out there totally dominating them. There's joy in that. You could get in an MMA fight and you could take someone down and you can mount them. And all that feels great. But when you start raining down the punches on their face from mount and like dropping elbows and stuff, like there's another level of satisfaction there. And it's tough to describe. And I don't think that everyone is made for it. When I was a senior in high school, my wrestling coach said, look, you've got to stop with all this crazy, aggressive wrestling. Like they tried to turn me into a technician and it did work to a degree. And it was a humongous shift for me in terms of success. But it wasn't the same level of enjoyment out of it. Like, I mean, I got disqualified from New England because my coach said crossface and I crossface and he said harder. And I basically wound up and blasted a kid in the face and his nose got busted everywhere. But I didn't think not to do it because that felt good. It felt good to crossface him like that. I was a lot of like... I mean, that's a weird American warrior ethos that I've picked up. But I also have the Russian, the Setya brothers that don't see it as that. They don't get drawn. They think that there is a tension between the art of the martial art and the violence of the martial art. It's a poetic way I could put it, but they're not so fascinated with this Dan Gable dominating another human. They think of the effortlessness of the technique and your mastery of the art is exhibited in its effortlessness, how much you lose yourself in the moment and the timing, just the beauty of a timing. There's much more... Like one example in judo, but also in wrestling, you can look at the foot sweep. Wrestlers in America and even judo players in America and much of the world don't admire the beauty of the foot sweep. But a well-timed foot sweep, which is a way to sort of off balance to find the right timing to just effortlessly turn the tables of... I mean, dominate your opponent is seen as the highest form of mastery in Russian wrestling and in the case of judo, it's in Japanese judo. It's interesting. I'm not sure what that tension is about. I think it actually takes me back to... I don't know if you listen to Dan Carlin, Hardcore History and Genghis Khan, if you've ever... I've read a great, great book. On Genghis Khan? Yeah. I'm still trying to adjust. Most of my life said Genghis Khan, but the right pronunciation is actually Changus Khan. There's a tension there. We kind of think, I don't know, we, I kind of thought as Genghis Khan is a ultra violent, a leader of ultra violent men. But another view, another way to see them is the people who, warriors that valued extreme competence and mastery of the art of fighting with weapons, with bows, with horse riding, all that kind of stuff. And I'm not sure exactly where to place them on my sort of thinking about violence in our human history. I think in the context of like a combat sports, I think there's a difference between an athlete winning a contest under a certain set of rules and a fighter winning a fight under those exact same rules. There's a different approach to it. And I don't think one is any better than the other. Like in MMA, I think a great example would be George St. Pierre. George St. Pierre is a tremendous athlete and he considers himself to be a martial artist first. He's trying to win an athletic competition. Like Nick Diaz is trying to bust your ass. Yeah. There's a different approach to it. And yes, they've had different results at the highest level of competition, but it's difficult to attribute the difference in results just to their approach to the sport, because they're different human beings with different abilities and different physical attributes. The Saitia brothers have that luxury of being able to talk about the beauty of a perfectly timed slide by, right? There are other wrestlers that will never be able to pull that off. And therefore, they have to pursue other ways to defeat someone. And maybe it is the Dan Gable breaking a man's spirit by outworking him type thing, which is beautiful in its own way. But we tend to self-select the ways in which we're able to be successful and then kind of take a deep dive into that. What do you think is more beautiful? Brute force or effortless execution of a technique that dominates another human? I think it's a subjective thing based on what skills you perceive yourself to have. I've never been a slick, super athletic, dexterous competitor in anything. And I've always been more of an I've got to outwork you, I've got to outgrind you, I've got to out mean you. And so because I've lived that, I tend to see the beauty in that more because I have a perceptual awareness that I don't have for the people who have the luxury of being very slick and athletic and using beautiful technique. Now, that said, there was a phenomenal little video the other day I sent to a friend of a compilation of foot sweeps by Leota Machida in MMA. And they're so beautiful and they're so awesome. And it's not that I don't have an appreciation for those, but I can't emulate those because I lack the physical ability to do that. Whereas I at least have a chance to emulate some of the people who do it through grit and through outworking people. But I would love to return to Genghis Khan and get your thoughts about, like, I have so many mixed feelings about whether he is evil or not, whether the violence that he brought to the world had ultimately, the fact that it had maybe kind of like Dan Carlin describes, cleansed the landscape, it's like a reset for the world through violence, had ultimately a progressive effect on human civilization, even though in the short term it led to massive, you could say, suffering. I don't know what to make of that, man. What are your thoughts on Genghis Khan? I think it's always difficult to look at a historical figure and their actions of their time through a modern day lens, because it's easy for us to kind of impugn their achievements and the things that they did and say, oh, well, what he did was wrong. Well, of course that can be true, but a lot of times we don't actually have any real good context or concept of the times they were living in and what really was deemed wrong and what really wasn't. We're looking at it through a very cushy modern lens. That being said, from what I've read about Genghis Khan, yeah, he was a violent dude, but also he gave you an option. When he got to a village, he said, look, you have a choice. You can come with us or you can run. He gave them an option to join his legion of fighters who he took very good care of. He was the first military leader to pay his soldiers' families when they died. And he did that based on the booty that they got when they raided a village. He took that money, he took his share, and he divided that up amongst the soldiers and then the soldiers' families. I think he also is credited with first horseback mail routes or something like that. Isn't he the godfather of the modern postal system? There's something like that. Yeah, he's the Bernie Sanders of the Mongol Empire. I do think the offering of surrender is an interesting one because it's interesting as a thought experiment whether you would sacrifice your way of life, like the pride of nations or the nationalism, pride of your country, whether you're willing to give that up to survive. It depends on who depends on you. If you have a family and young kids and stuff like that, I think your obligation is primarily to them. And therefore, surrender has to be something that you consider in that moment in time so that you can take care of those people. If you're a man alone and you've got all these principles and all this other stuff and you're not down with what Genghis Khan is doing and what he's selling, yeah, try and escape. Do your thing and just know what waits on the other side of that for you potentially. But I think if there's someone else out there that depends on you, your obligation should be to them. It feels like historically people valued principles more than life in this weight of like, what do I value more, the principles I hold versus survival? It seems that now we don't value principles as much. Principles could be also religion, it could be your values, whatever. We're okay sort of sacrificing those to preserve our survival. And that applies in all forms, like actual survival or like on social media, like preserving your reputation, all those kinds of things. It seems like we, especially in America, value individual life, that death is somehow a really bad thing as opposed to saying sacrificing your principles is a very bad thing and everybody dies and it's okay to die. What's horrible is to sacrifice your principles of who you are just to live another day. I think a big problem is people don't really even know what their principles are anymore. Right. Social media and just the way that we live nowadays where we're separated from the human contact like this, you're not contacting people in a community anymore. You're not, whether you're religious or not, you're not congregating at a church, you're not part of a parish like you would be down South. You're not part of that community anymore and so it's difficult to figure out what your principles and values are because you're constantly jumping from one bucket to the next online. And you don't get a lot of direct, reasonable feedback from people. You just get dipshit feedback like, oh, you don't believe this? Well, you're a jerk. I think the hard thing currently is having the integrity and character to stick by your principles when under, I don't want to equate murder in the Genghis Khan times to social media cancel culture, but it certainly doesn't feel good when people are attacking on social media. And it does take a lot of integrity to, without anger, without emotion, without mocking others or attacking others unfairly, standing by the ideas you hold. Or in another way, standing by your friends, standing by this little group like loyalty of the people that you know are good people. I find that in cancel culture, one of the sad things is whenever somebody gets quote unquote canceled, everybody just gets, all their friends become really quiet and they'll defend them or worse. I mean, quiet is at least understandable. They kind of signal that they throw them out of the bus, I guess is one way to put it. And that's something I think about a lot because from coming from me, it's like I hold an ethic. I don't know if others hold this ethic. Maybe it's this Russian mobster ethic of you should help your friends bury the body. You shouldn't criticize your friends for committing the murder. There are certain levels of, yeah, you have that discussion after you bury the body that maybe you shouldn't have done that murder thing. I don't know. I understand that that's a problematic, what's the terminology? That's a problematic ethical framework within which to operate. But at the same time, it feels like what else do we have in this world except the brotherhood, the sisterhood, the love we have for a very small community. But perhaps that's the wrong way of thinking. Perhaps the 21st century would be defined by the dissipation of this community, of this loyalty concept. We're all just individuals. I think you're right. And I think you have to have some sort of core framework of principles and beliefs that you operate on. And I think what I was referencing is a little bit different. But to speak to your point, you need a framework of core principles on which you can then base a lot of your other decisions. Like, I believe these three things to be true, whatever they are. And that will help inform other decisions you make in your life. As far as how you treat your friends, I've got probably three friends that I've been able to tell my friends that if they called me right now and said, let's bury the body. Sorry, Lex, I gotta go. There are other people in my life that if they said, hey, we've got to go bury the body, I would say, who is this? You know? Yeah. So I think it depends on the relationship. I want to, that's a good, that's a really good measure. I would love to have, I would love that to be in your profile. People put like pronouns. I would love to put like, honestly, like objectively, not self-report, but objective, how many people in your life, if they committed murder, you would not ask any questions and you would help them hide the body. Like, I would love to know that number for people. Yeah. And I think it's a weird thing too, because you think right away, like, okay, it must be the group of people that are the closest to you. That's who you're first thinking of, right? But obviously for like my best friend, I would do it, no question about it. I've got other people that are close to me that are close to me in other ways. And I probably wouldn't do that only because I don't think they do it for me. Yeah. And that is a consideration. So I guess it's the principle there then that you do for your friends, what you think they would do for you. Is that the underlying principle or do you just have a blind loyalty to, you know, people in your life for different reasons? I got people that are not on my inner circle that I probably wouldn't help change a tire at two in the morning if they were on the highway. But if they called me and said, hey, we got to bury the body, I might show up for that. It's just these weird, different connections you have. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, I have close friends that like, I'd probably be exactly, the tire is a good example, would be like, can't you find somebody else to do this? Right. I think part of that is just this leap of faith into like giving yourself to the other person that creates a deep connection that makes life fulfilling, like meaningful, that doesn't exist if you don't take that leap. I mean, it's not about the murder. We're sort of focusing, I think that's a, I think you have to, what is it, cross that bridge when you get there. I'm not exactly sure. This is just a thought experiment. But it's, I think about that a lot, especially these COVID times. And as people become more and more isolated and separated from each other, how important is it to have those deep, deep connections to other humans? I think especially like what you're talking about there. Have you ever seen the movie, The Town? There's a great line in the movie where one of the main characters walks into his friend's house and he says, I need your help. We're going to go hurt some people and you can never ask me about it again. And the friend looks up and he says, whose car are we taking? Like that, that is the type of person you need in your life. And the people, like there are people that will walk through that door and say that to you and you drop everything you're doing. And then there's the people that walk through your door and you're like, you know what? I got a hot pocket in the microwave. I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit tied up right now, but I'd love to help you out. But you know, I don't want to do that. And you don't have that, that deep connection with those people. You mentioned some principles that you've changed your mind on. Is there, do you want to go there? Is there some interesting principles and the process of changing that is useful to talk about? I can't really cite a specific thing except that understanding that the principles that you have at different points in your life can change and it's okay to change them without being a total pussy and being bullied by other people into thinking what you thought was wrong. If you come to these conclusions of your own volition and you decide to change them, that's great. And it can be really, it can be really liberating. It's really liberating to have an idea that you hold so true to your, your core belief system. And then to actually have someone change your mind for you and be okay with it, as opposed to being like, no, I got to die with this. I got to die with this. It's really liberating. There are definitely our ideas. You want to die on that Hill and no one's ever going to change your mind, but it's really liberating to be confident enough to say, change my mind. I'm lucky enough to have some smart motherfuckers around me who can tell me, listen, you're being a total dipshit. Like, let's, let's rethink this. Or like I have one friend who does the five Y's all the time and he loves backing me into a corner. And what's the five Y's you just like when someone makes a statement about something to really get to the core issue, they say, if you ask why five times make a statement, well, why is that? And you answer that, well, why? And you phrase the Y's differently, obviously, but then you get to the core. They say five times you can get to the core of the issue. And that's a challenging thing. But I find later in life, it's so liberating for me to be confident enough to be like, man, was I fucking way off the mark on this and have my mind changed. And be able to say that to others that I was wrong. Totally. That ability. And I never used to have that. And it's, it feels real good. And there's a hunger for that too. Yeah, you're so right, actually, on a personal level, it feels very good. Exactly as you said, it's liberating because you're free to then think as opposed to. Defend. Yeah. Without thinking. Yeah. You get so sick of defending the same thing over and over and over. And you start to think about it and it's like, well, I would really like to evolve my thought process here. And when you're constantly defending one point, it's difficult to let other ideas in. You discount the possibility that you can have your mind changed when you're constantly on the defense. You have to have a crack in the front line in order to let a new idea come in and possibly flourish. And maybe the new idea doesn't even prove your current belief system to be wrong, but maybe it's like the water to a seed and it grows and now it's something even bigger and better. And you can start to work with that instead. And it's a tough thing because I'm a stubborn fuck and it's very difficult for me, it was historically, to say, I was wrong about this one or I messed this one up or, yeah, I wish I could have that one back. There's a public figure for me thing too, which there's a difference between changing your mind with a small circle of friends and changing your mind publicly about something. But it has equal, one echoes the other. It is equally liberating, but people will not make that change easy, but it doesn't matter. That's the point. It doesn't, I think it's ultimately liberating as a human being, public figure or not, to think deeply about this world and to keep changing, which is like, I think there's a deep hunger for that in political discourse, that people are so tribal currently about politics that they want to see somebody who says, you know what, I changed my mind on this. Right. And then keep changing their mind and keep asking questions, keep showing that they're open-minded, all that kind of stuff. But you want someone in a position of political power to change their mind because they realize that there might be a better way, not because they realize that by changing their mind, they're going to get a new demographic to vote for them. That's transparent as shit. Nobody wants to see that. Right. Like that's a person who can't separate their position from their people they're supposed to be helping. Yeah. And you can usually smell that. That's, we're just talking offline about, there's something about Hillary Clinton, where she talked about changing her mind on gay marriage, that it felt like this is a political calculation versus like really deeply thinking about like what, you know, what things do we do in this world that violate basic human rights? Like really thinking about deeply and, you know, of course, politicians are calculating this, but you can see it. That's the thing. That's why I like, on a human level, there's like political policies, but there's also humans. And I've always liked Bernie Sanders, for example. I don't know, not the later, perhaps Bernie Sanders, but I used to listen to him back in the day. And it felt that people might disagree with me, but it felt like there was a real human struggling with ideas, whatever agree with him or not. It felt like he wasn't doing political calculation. He was just a human. He couldn't be further away from my political ideals, but also like there's an obvious authenticity to his passion for what he's saying that is not present in other candidates. And you could see it, all these people that have been in politics forever, like from all the way back when Hillary was a lawyer in the seventies. There's a couple of shots of her in a courtroom in the seventies though. She's looking all right. She's got those big glasses on. Yeah. Kind of a little bit of a nerdy babe back in the day. Oh, you mean like, yeah. Well, John Clark says Hillary Clinton was a baby back in the day. 73 Clinton. Yeah. That's an interesting question about authenticity and politicians. Do you think like Hillary Clinton, just the Clintons in general are a good example of that. Why do you think they become over time so inauthentic? Is it the system that changes them? Is that their own hunger for power? Is it, what is it? Or are they always inauthentic? Well, first I'd like to say that, I don't know if you know this, but I come from a bit of a political dynasty myself. I was on the student government several times in high school and my dad won the runoff in a special election in Bradenton beach, Florida. I think there's like 700 people there. So your dad got you the job. Yeah. We're basically a lot of people compare us to the Kennedys. My guess with the politicians is that, and you can, you can see it now as we're becoming more like cognizant as people to the political process. I think the process corrupts people. And I think that, I don't know the ins and outs of it. I've listened to people who are far more educated on it than me. And I, and I'm unprepared to cite any of their points. I think you can see it a little bit in Dan Crenshaw. Can I say this? Yeah. So I like him. I really liked Dan, especially like a year, year and a half ago, he seemed very level headed. It's clear to me now that as he panders more and more to the right, it's because he's setting himself up for a presidential run. It's clear that that's happening. And he just doesn't seem like the same authentic ideals oriented guy that he did a year and a half ago. Now I could be wrong on that. It could be way off, but I think that you can take someone as honest as you want to. When you start them on that path to the presidency, you become so unbelievably beholden to so many people and entities along the way that by the time you get to the final destination, the Oval Office, all you're doing is paying back the favors that got you there. And you never get to serve the people you're supposed to serve. Your primary focus is on your office and not on the people that you're supposed to be helping. And I think that that's a humongous problem. And like, we could talk all about campaign finance reform in a two-party system, but at the end of the day, the people who are running for political posts, they're working to keep a job. They're not working to improve the lives of the constituents, which is different. Long, long time ago, a lot of politicians, those were part-time jobs. And they held other posts out West. They were ranchers by day and sheriff by night, whatever the case might be. But now, you have such a cushy path for the rest of your life that the goal is to just be a politician, not do the things that you think a politician is supposed to do. And that's a problem. By the way, I'll talk to Dan on this. It's funny, I like the version of him from a year ago, and I haven't been really paying attention. So I'll actually pay more attention now and ask him that exact question, like, how do you prevent yourself from changing, becoming what the Clintons became? I tend to believe, like, there's conspiratorial stuff about Clintons and all these politicians. I tend to believe that there were actually good, thoughtful people back in the day. At some point. And the system changes them. It's not even the system. There's something about just the process of campaigning. I just think it wears you down to where, if you look at the percentage of time you spend on the kinds of conversations you have, it's like, one, you do these speeches, which you repeat the same thing over and over and over. It beats the process of thinking, you just exhaust your brain to where you're not thinking anymore, you're just repeating. It's very, it's exceptionally difficult to keep making speech after speech after speech, saying the same thing over and over and over again. And at the same time, thinking deeply and changing your mind and learning. And then also the pandering to financial, like, having phone calls, like, fundraising, all those kinds of things. That's what they do now. They spend most of their time fundraising. They're not worried about anything. Sorry to interrupt you, but I was going to say that you can see there's a fuel, like the, the more attention and the higher regard you're held in, in your community and the more sycophants like continue to blow smoke up your ass, the more it changes the way you present yourself. And you can see it in, in every walk of life. I mean, jujitsu is a tiny, tiny little section of the world, but you see it in the jujitsu community when someone all of a sudden starts a social media page or whatever, and they get a bunch of people like basically like, you know, cyber filleting them on their Instagram page. They, they, they changed. Filleting. Is that a word? I think so. So giving a play show. Yeah. So filleting. Yeah. Jamie, look it up. I think, but in those people, it changes their character. It changes who they are because they become emboldened and, and you know, now they've got this like mythical cyber mob behind them. There's a sign at the entrance to your gym that reads for every moment of triumph. It's a quote by Hunter S Thompson. It reads for every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled. What does this quote mean to you? That quote to me is about mostly about sacrifice. And it's about to achieve anything great or anything beautiful or to triumph, you have to have sacrificed so many things to get there, unless you're the most unbelievably genetically gifted person in the world. And greatness is just, you know, falls upon you, which is raining from the sky. I think on your path to greatness, on your path to success and triumph, you leave a lot of carnage in your wake. Personal relationships, other goals, things that you didn't pursue, you know, other unfulfilled dreams. And you kind of have to sell a lot of that out in order to be really the, the, at the peak of your field or, or what you want to be. I know that that's happened in my life. I mean, there's tons and tons of relationships that, you know, couldn't survive. The way that I was living my life, because when I was trying to be a big time fighter or like when I was just training all the time, tons of relationships, uh, dissolved themselves naturally. Some not so naturally, uh, some people get it. Some people don't get it. Some people hate you. Um, you miss tons of other opportunities. And I think that's kind of what that quote means to me. It's a, it's about sacrifice. It's about. You're giving up what you want to do. Now for what you want more, and it's the, the trampling of souls. It's messy too, because it's not clear what, what the right path is. Like that sacrifice is not obvious that, um, that's, those are the right sacrifices to make. You might be, you might be ruining your own life, but the fact that you're willing to take that risk. And, uh, sort of go all in on the, whether it's stupid or not to go all in on something that the possi- the possibility of creating something beautiful is there. Who says it's stupid? If you're going all in on it, you don't think it's stupid. Someone else might think it's stupid, but I mean, who really cares? Well, I'm of many minds on many things. So I feel like there's certain minds that are going to be the ones that are going to take the risk, so I feel like there's certain minds, certain moods of the day where you think it's stupid like relationships is a beautiful one, which is, you've seen the movie Whiplash by any chance? Yes. It seems like in a man's life, or it could be a woman's, but, um, I don't identify as a woman, so I know the man, the lived experience... You're good though, it's 2020 bro. But my lived experience for now is that of a man, we'll see about tomorrow. And there is, in the pursuit of excellence, there's often a choice of, some of the souls that must be trampled are personal relationships with humans in your life that you might deeply care about. It could be family, it could be friends, it could be loved ones of all different forms, it could be the people that, your colleagues that depend on you, people who will lose jobs because of the decisions you make, all those kind of stuff. It seems that that moment happens, and I'm not sure that sacrifice is always the correct one. Like, to me, the movie Whiplash, where people haven't seen, spoiler alert maybe, I don't even know if that movie has any spoilers, but there is a relationship with a female, there's a student, there's a drummer that's pursuing excellence of this particular art form of drumming, and he has a brief fleeting relationship with a female, and he also has an instructor that's pushing him to his limits in what appears to be awfully a lot like a toxic relationship, and he chooses, not chooses, he naturally makes the decision to sacrifice the romantic relationship with the woman in further pursuit of this chaos of, this chaotic pursuit of excellence. And that doesn't feel like a deliberate decision. It feels like a giant mess of an emotional mess where you're just kind of like a fish swimming against stream, just like, fuck it. You let go of all the things that convention says you should appreciate, you throw away the possibility of a stable life, of a comfortable life, of what society says is a meaningful life, and just pursue this crazy thing full of seeming toxicity with crazy people surrounding you. I don't know, so I don't know what the right decision is. Part of my brain says you should stay with the girl, fuck that instructor that's making you, that's pushing you to places where it's like, that are destructive, potentially destructive, like could lead to suicide, could lead you to completely fail on your pursuit of excellence or destroy the dream, the passionate pursuit of the thing that you've always dreamed for, in that case is drumming. I don't know, I'm on many minds there. Like what is the right thing to do? So my first two thoughts are, number one, fuck convention, what is convention? It's like some laid out path, some linear progression of the way your life is supposed to go, like that someone can draw a picture of at the end. That shit's, first of all, it's just boring and whatever. And it's, I don't wanna say that it's cowardly because it isn't cowardly, but for someone who's not conventional to not be non-conventional is cowardly, to get sucked into the convention, that's first. Second of all, I believe that scene in the diner in that movie where he tells her, you're in my way because I'm gonna want to be with you, or you're going to want me to be going out to dinner with you, and I know I should be practicing, or I know I should be training. And then ultimately I'm gonna make, I'm either gonna feel bad about not being with you by training, or I'm gonna skip the training to be with you, and neither one is right. The whole thing that they don't mention in that is that that's the wrong girl. That's the wrong girl. The right girl is a gangster. The right girl says, oh, you have practice tonight? I'll leave you a sandwich and some milk so that you can, you know, outside the door, let me know when you're done, or you have some like free time. Like the right girl compliments that. She's not an impediment in any way. Even if what you wanna do is be with her so much that you're putting the drums down, or you're putting the bass down, or you're picking up the pizza, or you're not going to training, like that girl, without even telling you why she's making decisions, is making decisions to help you achieve your goal. Now that might sound like some sort of like chauvinistic king of the castle type shit, like where everyone should cater to you, but the fact of the matter is that person is a compliment to your life in helping you do your thing, and in your own way, you're helping them to achieve whatever their goals are also. It's uncommon that you have two people under the same roof striving to be unbelievably excellent in one small area. It's not impossible, but it's uncommon. Like relationships have to be like binary systems, like two stars, like the gravitational pull is what keeps you together and circling around one another, right? And one is bigger than the other, and they'll fluctuate, and the stars will get bigger, and they'll get smaller in their contract based on positioning and composition. That's the way a relationship should be. Not an asteroid coming in to disrupt the surface of your planet. It's a binary system, it's a compliment. That girl was the wrong girl for him. So you shouldn't, like the big unconventional dreams should not be adjusted to fit into this world. Because I mean, there is a part of me that's like full of self-doubt. Well, maybe you're just a dick. Maybe. Yeah, who cares? Look, so first of all, who cares? Who cares? This is, by the way, somebody who's, you have recently gotten, well, recently, in the span of the history of the universe is recently you've gotten to a relationship, but you haven't always, you have not felt the need to be in the relationship just because you're supposed to by society's kind of momentum. If you, I think that if you really want anything, you've gotta be prepared fully to be the exact opposite. If you're a person who's looking for a relationship, the only way you're gonna get in an awesome relationship is by being comfortable being alone, because that's the risk. If you're a person who's driven by money, you've gotta be comfortable being totally poor, because that's the risk, right? And when you're constantly hedging your bets, you're never all in. You're never all in on the thing you're trying to do. A relationship has to compliment your life. You can't say it's okay to want to be in a relationship, but you can't want to be in a relationship so bad that you take someone in who fits the suit. And it's like, oh, our schedules kind of work out. You live near me and this and that and the other thing, because the logistics of a relationship are not always perfect. It's what matters is when the two people are together. That's the perfect part of it. And it's great to wanna meet people and say, if we meet and some sort of a relationship develops, I'm willing to run with it, but I'm not meeting you hoping a relationship develops. I think you kind of put the cart before the horse in a lot of those situations. It's like when guys meet. No guy goes out and is like, I'm looking for a bro, right? Nobody does that. You go to the gym and you run into a bunch of dudes, and the next thing you know, someone's cool and they wanna talk about fighting, and you're fucking shotgunning beers, and all of a sudden you got a bro. And that's how it works. It works the same way with women. What's the shotgun in beers? I'll show you after this. You poke a hole in the bottom and you open the top. Yeah. Yeah, it's very- This is the problem with America. Drink vodka like a man. Okay, now don't poke holes in beers. This is the problem with the frat culture. They don't really know how to drink. They think they know how to drink. They don't know how to drink. What do you think makes a successful relationship if we can linger on that a little longer? I think, let me ask John Clark about love. I didn't ask a question, but let me just say love. About love. Are you one of those people who never says, I love you? No, no. I'm an extreme person, and my emotions are also extreme. And one of the things I concern myself with, maybe this is philosophical in martial arts, warrior, soldier type related stuff, is I don't want anyone, if I die tonight on the drive home, hopefully that doesn't happen, I hope that no one is left questioning how I felt about them. And people I don't like probably are not questioning that. And so the thing that I've had to learn how to do later in life is to tell the people that you care about that you care about them. And each thing can be equally off-putting to the receiver of the message. Each thing can be equally off-putting to the receiver of the message. When you're letting someone know how much you dislike them, that can be off-putting to the person receiving that message. And when you tell someone how much you care about them, that can also be off-putting to the person, depending on how they view their relationship with you. But it's still important to get it out there. Like you shouldn't hold those things in because you're worried about how they'll be received or if they'll come back at you. So you're okay going all in on these? Yeah. Not afraid of commitment? No, I'm not afraid of commitment. Anyone who says they're afraid of commitment is full of shit. You know what they're afraid of? They're afraid of commitment with that person. That's what they're afraid of. Like when someone knocks you on your ass and they come into your life and you're flushed with all these emotions, you're not worried about, oh, I don't really like commitment. No, because they've knocked you on your ass. You want to be with them. You want those things. The two most alive points in your life, I think people feel is the euphoria of a new relationship and then the loss when that love is gone. You'll never feel more, I don't think, than in those moments in your life. See, the nice thing about the loss is it lasts longer. Yeah. So that's a Louis C.K. point that he makes, which is like in his show, I think is a conversation with an older gentleman that says that's his favorite part of the relationship is that period between the loss of the relationship and the real death, which is forgetting the person. But that period lasts the longest and that's the most fulfilling. Missing the other person is as fulfilling as the actual love, the early infatuation, which is interesting. I also think of the Bukowski. I return to that. There's a little clip of him in an interview saying that love is a fog that dissipates with the first light of reality or something like that. So basically emphasizing that it's this very, very, very fleeting thing, that it's a moment's thing and then it just fades and everything else is something else. So love is only a temporary thing, which is interesting. I think some people say that's cynical. I don't know. I don't know what to think of it. I think it's important to understand that everything is fleeting when you don't put effort into it. Almost everything will be fleeting. If you don't put effort into it, most people will get fat and lazy. If you don't put effort into something, you're gonna not be good at playing guitar or playing bass. You've gotta put effort into it. The same thing goes for a relationship. That, the awesome part of it, that love part, that dies soon and early on in a relationship because it's so good that we think we don't have to work at it. But you do. You have to keep doing the things and you gotta keep things new and crisp and fresh. And when you, different people probably feel differently about this, but I don't know, you walk around your girl and you start farting and stuff, that's when it all dies. That's when it dies. We're all human beings. We're all here and our bodies work in the same way, but you start to chip away at this beautiful thing when you stop, when you buck conventional courtesy and things like that. We take it for granted, basically. You take it for granted, yeah. I mean, it's the same thing with life. It's like, it's the same, I'm a big fan of meditating on death, that you could die today. In the same way you should meditate on this relationship could end today. This connection with another human could be, this is the last time you could be interacting. And your chances of that increase when you take it for granted and you shit on people. But when you work at it, the chances of that decrease. It's never gonna be zero, but it decreases. And when you do that, when you're the person and you're trying to maintain and you're trying to work at the relationship, you gotta make sure that both people are working at it. Otherwise, you're just a fucking chump. Okay, let's return back to mixed martial arts. Let me ask the ridiculous question of who do you think are the top three, maybe top five greatest fighters of all time? Phew, it's so hard to compare fighters across generations. And maybe one way to say it is which metrics would you put on the table as to measure what a great fighter is? There was a guy named Dioxippus. Ha ha ha. In the fourth century. Yeah. And he was such a badass that in the Olympics in 336 BC, no one even showed up to fight him. In the pancreation event. Nobody even showed up because he was fucking everybody up. Years later, he was retired. And this crazy Macedonian dude came there at some dinner for Alexander the Great. Everyone's chilling, drinking whatever they were drinking out of their chalices. And this Macedonian dude threatened him and challenged him. So Dioxippus said, yeah, man, we'll throw down. And they set the time and the place. Macedonian dude comes out, like body armor, spear, shield, all this other shit. Dioxippus came out absolutely naked with a wooden club and took on this much younger guy, beat the living crap out of him, and then put his foot on his throat. And then didn't even kill him in a show of ultimate power for the time. So I think- There's something about the guy being naked too is just extra demeaning. Extra demeaning. Yeah. Okay, can we- Can we rephrase the question then? Because those are clearly going to be some probably forgotten warriors in history. Let's take it to modern day mixed martial arts in the UFC. Well, just mixed martial arts there. Who do you think are the top fighters of all time? What metrics would you consider in trying to answer this perhaps unanswerable question? I think one of the things you wanna think about is strength of opponent at the time you fought them. So for example, fighting BJ Penn in his prime and beating him is far different than beating BJ Penn last year, right? So to say you have a victory over BJ Penn is not the same given the time frame of when it happened. Not to take anything away from anyone who's beaten BJ Penn. Just use that as an example of someone whose career went into a different direction. Yes. I would say, the guy who I think is probably the best that people are the least familiar with would be Murillo Bustamante. And I think he was a guy who was one of the guys with the first really good physical build for MMA, which I think is narrow from the chest to the back and long shoulder to shoulder and kind of sinewy made out of steel cable. That was a guy who could box. That was a guy who could wrestle. And that was a guy who had great jaw strength. That was a guy who could wrestle. And that was a guy who had great jujitsu. He wasn't a great kick boxer, but at the time he didn't need it. Fought everybody and gave everybody a run. I think he's probably one of those guys who's gotta be considered. Yeah, there's a few killers that never, cause like why is he not in the discussion? Cause like, I think greatness requires both the skill and the opportunity to beat each other. And when you talk about a fighter, the other thing that really a good fighter needs to become great is a foil. Yeah. And so many fighters don't have a foil. That's one of the biggest attractions, I think of early Mike Tyson's career. He didn't have a foil. He had no one driving him. And by the time he did, by the time he had a foil in Holyfield, his career was in a different place. But he's one of the greats all the time. He never really had a foil. So his greatness was in unparalleled destruction of like nobody's, well, not, you know, of lesser opponents. Right. And so when people debate the, you know, the level of greatness of Mike Tyson, that's one of the things they say, like he didn't fight a lot of killers in their prime. I think you've obviously got to say in that conversation, I have a really difficult time keeping George St. Pierre out of the conversation. Only because he was able to beat you with anything. He could out jab you, he could out wrestle you, and he could submit you. The problem I have with Fedor is his career also took a drastic turn towards the end. And when he was fighting in pride, he was doing a lot more grappling. And then he just started casting that over him right at people. And his game kind of changed at that point. You can't take anything away from his greatness, but at that time, the great heavyweights were not really fighting in pride, and they didn't really exist yet. And by the time he fought a really good one, Fabrizio Verdum, he did get submitted there. Does his later performance color your and our perception of his greatness, like in general about fighters? Not mine, but I'm someone who's like intimately involved in the sport, but it colors everyone else's. Same with Anderson Silva. I don't think Anderson Silva doesn't wanna fight in like seven years or something, or is it one? That's a guy who in his prime was one of the best fighters. Is he in the top five for you? I think he's probably in the top five, yeah. Greatest striker of all time or no? In MMA? In mixed martial arts. In mixed martial arts? That's a tough question. The greatest MMA striker of all time. Because the timing, we were talking about foot sweeps, right, who makes it look easier? And then Anderson Silva. I think in an incredibly short sample of his prime, it's gotta be Anderson Silva, and I think you have to consider discussing Liota Machida for his unbelievable manipulation of distance, which is something that people don't really talk too much about in terms of fighting, unless you're someone in the sport. His use of distance and the ability to like, what we call pop out, like make you miss by one inch so that he could follow your fist back in as you retract it and then hit you over the top, that, that's a thing of beauty. Anderson Silva, when he became a counter striker, when he got to his prime in the UFC, that was a thing of beauty. That was a thing of beauty. So I think definitely those two guys, and Murillo Bustamante's gotta be the third guy. There's just so many good guys now. It's just- So where do you put, in terms of metrics, so you mentioned GSB and Anderson Silva, I think they have a large number of defenses of a title. Is that important to you? Like this kind of consistent domination? No, because it's easily manipulated by the people making money off the fights. So there was a great quote one time when UFC was coming to prominence and Vince McMahon from the WWE, he said, you know, the difference between what we do and what UFC does is that when we have a superstar, I can make sure he stays on top until he's no longer a superstar because we have predetermined results. The UFC can't do that because they're actually having fights. Well, it's true and false. You can't do that, but you can give your superstars the most favorable matchups to keep them on top for the longest. So people always talk about title defenses as if the guy they're fighting, the challenger, is always the person most deserving of the shot. And it's just not true. So I don't put that much stock in it. Is it possible to put a guy in consideration as one of the greats if all they had is one or two amazing fights? I'll tell you, like, and amazing could be a lot of different definitions. It could be just a war. Like, they never really reached the highest of excellences of domination, but they've, like, we had this discussion about Kyle Bocniak, right? Yep, to me, that's a perfect example. He had this famous fight against Zabit Magomedsharipov where on one side you have an Anderson Silva type of fighter and Zabit, like, just a very good striker. And then there's, like, the warrior on the Kyle side. And just the fight, they created something special together. It was a fight of the night or whatever, but that fight was special on that night because the two dance partners. You can have a great performance without being a great fighter. Not saying neither of those guys is a great fighter, but to answer your first question, I think that having one or two great performances does not necessarily mean that you are great. I need a larger sample size. I have no idea what that is. I don't have any idea what that is. And also, how much weight does toughness have when you're thinking about the criteria when you define a great fighter? That's a good question, and I don't have the answer to it. I admire the underdog that rises to the occasion through brute force. They didn't bring the skillset to the table that perhaps some of the greats have, but they rose to the occasion. I mean, there's something about that. There's something about that. And so now we're more talking about the internal attributes as opposed to the external physical attributes. And those are the things I think that you cannot teach. Those things, you come in the door and you either have that or you don't. I think, and we talk about this all the time, and this is one of the things where my mind changes regularly. Like on what makes a fighter, is it born or is it bred? And this week I'm of the opinion that it's in you. And maybe it's in you and you suppress it and people can tease it out of you, but I don't think you can make someone who doesn't have that seed in there, I don't think you can turn them into that great warrior with that level of grit and mental toughness. Now, when that fight, when Kyle fought Zabit, it's a unique situation for both guys. It was kind of a later replacement fight for Kyle. Zabit's star was on the rise and Kyle put the blueprint out there on how to beat Zabit. Which is? Which is pressure him and try and drag him into the late rounds. You notice that later on when Calvin Cater fought him, they wouldn't give him five rounds. They wanted five rounds and Zabit's camp, from what I understand, would not agree to the five round fight. Well, he didn't look, right, so with Kyle it was a three round fight. Three round fight. And what did, it went to decision? It went to decision. Zabit won the decision, clearly, which is. Did Kyle have a shot at winning the third round? I don't remember the exact score, but Kyle could have won the third round had he done a couple things differently. But I do believe in the fourth round, I think Kyle would have won a fourth round. And I think maybe even won the fight if there would have been a fifth round. And he was pressing forward, perhaps in a funny way that you could tell me I'm wrong, but it felt like he wasn't emphasizing head movement at that point. He went full Mike Tyson. There was a point at which, so it's funny that you say that. Which is a contradiction, actually, because. Mike Tyson had great head movement. I actually don't know exactly what I mean, because he was in the pocket. I think he was trying to do the movement. He was just in the pocket and pressing forward. And the fuck you attitude of just not passing down. That was a little bit later when Zabit's back was towards the cage. Towards the end of the round. We get that fight, and I said to Kyle, I was like, look, this kid has been training martial arts since he was three years old. There's not an area where you're gonna out-technique him. And so we've gotta now channel some of that grit that we know you have. This is an opportunity to showcase it. And I don't know how long I did it for, because Kyle's much shorter than Zabit. So for a good long while, while we were training for Zabit, I didn't even say anything. And I just had clips of Mike Tyson training on the TV in the gym, and the head movement. And I didn't even mention it. And then we started to get into it, and talk about getting inside the length of the longer fighter, and things like that. And we kind of, which, when some people train MMA, they say, okay, this guy's a really good wrestler. Let's think about avoiding the wrestling, or being a better wrestler. And I think that when the difference in skill is so great, those are both the wrong answer. If a guy who's a really good wrestler wants to take you down, and you don't have a lot of wrestling experience, he's probably gonna get you down if he's got a good coach, right? So you have to deal with that. To then say, I'm gonna then learn in eight weeks how to wrestle better than a guy who's been wrestling since he was eight years old is also a bad idea. So what we concentrated on for that camp, and it worked beautifully, was not getting caught in chain wrestling. These are the takedowns you're gonna get caught with. This is how to not get caught with the next step while you're defending takedown one. Because it's the chain of techniques that are gonna get you fucked, right? So we did a ton of work on get-ups, and breaking the hands from the various takedowns. It was a while ago now, so I don't remember exactly the techniques we worked on. But we concentrated on defend the first takedown and stay out of the chain. Don't get chained into a bunch of wrestling techniques, because you will be out-wrestled. And that was really successful. And then the third round, Sabit was tired. And- He was tired. Sabit got tired. He cuts a tremendous amount of weight. Like, I can't see him staying at 145 forever when they start giving him five-round fights. I don't even know if he's had a five-round fight yet. He may have, but... I can't see him staying down there. The guy's like 6'1". Guys, he's a giant of a guy. So Kyle pressed forward there, and he said he felt that there was no power left in Sabit's hands, and so he felt fine. And I think part of it was he fed off the crowd as he moved forward and saw that he wasn't taking a lot of damage. Like, the punches weren't staying him. He started walking right through them. It goes to your question of what makes a fighter. Was him walking forward like that something that you're born with, or is that something you were training? Is that the Mike Tyson on TV? He's born with that. Kyle is born with that. And the crowd, I've been in a lot- Was it in Boston? No, it was in New York. It was in Brooklyn. I've been in a lot of arenas for a lot of different sporting events. That's one of the loudest things I've ever heard when he did that. I was going crazy. And you ask about that being taught or not. Kyle is so much like that that I have to try and tease some of that out of him and pull it back. Because he's also so very technical when he wants to be that the emotion and the fun of it gets in the way of his technique and probably has cost him a couple of wins. And so that's one of the things we work on with him right now. It's like staying within yourself, being a professional, taking your time to download the information in round one, and then starting your fight in round two. But the tension between those two things is what makes, what on that day created one of the, in my opinion, one of the greatest fights I've ever seen. Joe Rogan agrees. Yeah, it's one of the greatest fights I've certainly ever seen. So it's funny that you as a coach, I can see the frustration of throwing away some of the strategy kind of thing. Like you seeing, being not happy that there could be things that he could have done to win the fight. It's in retrospect. I think that at that time, we were playing with incredible house money. Like Kyle was a gigantic underdog in that fight. Zabit was unstoppable. I think people were probably picking him to finish the fight in round one. I think at that point, no one had ever gone the distance with Zabit. And no one certainly had put that kind of performance together and I think Kyle put the blueprint out there. And in retrospect, when I look at the last round, yeah, there were things that could have been done differently but we're playing with house money at that point. Like, I mean, let it fly. You get to a point where you've got it, you're down three rounds and there's 20 seconds left. You got to move all your chips to the center of the table and see what happens. Do you remember what Joe Rogan said about it? I remember like he got one over. I think I have trouble remembering because offline we talked about that fight and he's exceptionally impressed by it. I mean, Joe's from Boston. So it's like, I mean, there's a story there. Okay, it sucks not, you naturally want to romanticize like there's a Rocky versus like, there's a Rocky IV, a Draga. I mean, similar, I suppose, kind of chemistry. Kyle's style represents the American ideal, right? The spirit. Yeah, I mean, he's from Gloucester. It's like you could have dragged him off the docks three hours before the fight and said, hey, you want to go fight and he would have said yes. That was a special fight, but that's as per discussion of like greatest fighters of all time, I tend to believe that that fight is more special than the championship belt defenses by George St. Pierre. You know, there's something to that. It's like Rocky I is more special than like Rocky III. Right, so like it's the underdog or it's whatever, like the dance partners like going to war and like that moment, I mean, it's bigger, it's bigger than any individual fighter. They create that and that, I know it's not perhaps good for a career. It's not good for like in terms of money, in terms of longevity, in terms of all those kinds of things, but that's a special moment in the history of fighting that you both created. I can remember like when I was in college, I remember, impatiently for me, I cried for that fight as I watched him. And I think it just so happened that I still have a collection of those wonderful moments inside the men's chamber of arms, but especially like when he won the fight that I can remember like right after like there was so much excitement in the air during the third round. And I remember being in the corner and like, I was so excited at the end of it that I had forgotten what happened in the other two rounds. I didn't even know. So in awe of his performance that like I forgot what was going on and I and It's so hard to not be a fan at that moment and to stay within yourself and try and like coach But then what the fuck you even coaching at that point? It's like we're rumbling. We got 30 seconds We're trying to win here and I remember like The performance itself. I'm not a fan of moral victories but if ever there was gonna be one that was one and when the fight was over and I grabbed Kyle like The they hadn't even been to the center of the cage yet And I just hugged him and I said you're my fucking hero and I remember Being very emotional about that that I was able to be a part of that It feels wrong to say but I was I kind of avoided saying it But I think if I'm being honest with my feelings, this is a safe space for feeling. Yeah is I Think it was the greatest Mixed martial arts fight I've ever seen and I don't think I'm being biased. I was honestly thinking like am I being biased? I honestly don't think so. I think that was a great fight Like if you want to rank fights I've ever seen I think to me that was the greatest fight I've ever seen it certainly was a one of the greatest displays of like just Dogged effort from an underdog who was out experienced and in probably outsized but I mean like you just Kyle's one of those kids. You're never gonna tell him he's out of a fight He has something you can't teach and I've seen tons of people with more physical attributes and they're just mental midgets and they got a million dollar body and a 50 cent heart and And in Kyle is not that yeah, and you can't teach it no matter what you do, but that was I Would say like my career in combat sports, which spans, you know I'll if you want to go all the way back to like wrestling like that was one of probably the greatest experiences I've been a part of it's a bittersweet sport. She's a fickle mistress Yeah, I mean the the tragic aspect of that is Like I guess Kyle lost right right so like if you look at the record and all the kind of things perhaps Like you look at the career Maybe like as a financial From a financial perspective that perhaps is not the the greatest thing for Kyle's career or that or In the history of the UFC perhaps it's not it's not You know, like maybe many people didn't even watch that fight, but it was a special moment that stands in the history There's not many of these in In the history of fighting so but at the end of the day when you look at someone's career in the UFC like Financially, there's a you know a handful of people that make real money Everybody else makes nothing. There's a handful of people that make real money So did that loss cost him in the in the near term? Sure But when you look back on your life, you're not gonna look back on that loss as something that derailed my life financially And I never recovered from it. That's not gonna happen It's like the sad thing is unless you were a champion and you know Most most people are gonna be forgotten right away. I mean, I'm not gonna say that But if you're a champion and you know, most most people are gonna be forgotten right after they're gone Most people will be forgotten and if you're not forgotten certainly your your accolades are gonna be misrepresented Either they're gonna be inflated or diminished one way or the other so looking back on it. It's just so hard to to quantify that but it's an experience and like when you're in that moment and you're one of the people like Intimately involved in it the value of that experience supersedes any financial gain Where would you put Khabib in the discussion of the greatest of all time. So you recently we worked together. We watched the fight Of him and Justin Gachey and and Khabib retired Would you put him up there as some of the as one of the greatest or did he never? truly find his foil that like the great warrior that challenged him and And And maybe do you want to do you think he's fully retired now? To answer the question about being fully retired. I don't have any idea. I can't for a second pretend to Think that I understand the way that people from that part of the world think and respect their family and things like that to an American who says oh, I promised my mom I wouldn't do it. I mean I promised my mom I wouldn't do a lot of things and I went right out fucking back door and did him Yeah But I think that that means something different to people in different parts of the world so I've no idea what kind of weight that carries So I can't answer that I can say a lot of times when people think about great fighters They think about the aspects that make up MMA like they think of MMA as a pie and there are all these different pieces that make up for make up the pie and How good is this piece and how good is this piece and how good is this piece? when the fact of the matter is is You only need one really really really good piece and the other pieces are complimentary pieces to get you To where you're the strongest and if you want to tell me that Khabib's not the greatest MMA fighter because he doesn't have really slick striking you can make that argument But what I can tell you is Khabib has good enough striking to get him to his grappling where he is Clearly the best guy at 155 they've ever seen. Yeah, so does that make him the greatest fighter in that division or not? to Your point about the foil. They wanted Connor to be his foil and he just manhandled them I mean they wanted that to happen did not happen. So well, there there's a kind of argument to be made which kind of not you get haters in this argument and and you're gonna be one of the haters because I know you're How should I put it lack of? admiration for Conor McGregor But you know, what is it football is a game of inches yeah, there's there's a sense where You know that Connor there's an argument to be made that Connor wasn't exactly dominated That he ended up being dominant meaning. Let me phrase it differently is There's a lot of points in the fight that it could have a different trajectory Right could have happened So he wasn't so far from having a chance at winning that fight. It's just the end You can focus the most important moments at the end. You've lost the most important moments, right? But the road less taken it could have been if he didn't lose those very important moments He had a chance. I'm saying out of all the people that could be fought It's arguable that Connor was up there of the people that had a chance. Let me say this first I love it so much heat for this. I do love Khabib I'm a huge Khabib fan because I'm a grappler first and foremost need to because I'm also Russian. I love Khabib calm down Okay, but when when when Connor came on the scene? I love Connor because I'm an Irish American and you know, I want to support him and things like that He was he was good fun. He he got to be for my personal Taste he got to be too much Of all the people could be has fought. I would never fight Connor again if I were him and here's why and I said this about the Diaz fight Nate Diaz who was one of my favorite fighters has fought the exact same fight for 12 years Connor will switch something up to give himself an edge And I believe that Connor would figure something out in fight number two I think but I also thought that Gage you would give Connor a chance In fight number two, I think but I also thought that gauge you would give could be problems where it wouldn't be a matter of I'm gonna out wrestle Khabib or Become better at defending his wrestling takedowns Connor would have figured out a way to not get wrestled I feel like he's constantly changing. He's constantly evolving and Whether or not people realize it or not I think Connor is one of the better overall athletes in MMA just from looking at his body and his movement and the way he Shaped he's got a very tiny waist. He's got really pronounced glutes and shoulders and I think he's for real athlete Where's a lot of guys in MMA are not for real athletes. They're just good at one of the things that makes up MMA. I understand what you're saying about if This happened if that happened But I mean you could say that about every single combat sports event ever if Spinks is hook land Landed on Tyson, maybe that fight didn't end the way that it did but you know what it didn't you're absolutely right but if we could talk about just Conor McGregor for a second, I Can't wait to get your fan mail or hate mail Speak to the innovation of Connor. I don't hear very many people making this argument But is it possible to make an argument that Conor McGregor is one of the greatest fighters of all time? It's an interesting argument and the problem the only problem with the argument is there's so much emotion on either side yeah, I had a conversation sorry to interrupt with Yaron Brook who's a Philosopher objectivist and which is the philosophy of Ayn Rand and the amount of Emotion around that particular human is fascinating to me. It's similar to the amount of emotion around Donald Trump you can think of different personalities. Maybe Elon Musk. Those are the people that aren't willing to have their mind changed They're too emotionally attached to the argument. Yeah, but it's weird that why do we? Why why some people? Inspire so much emotion and others don't but Conor McGregor. I feel like Nobody's able to have a calm like fight analysis of the guy like look to me as it's just a fan of Martial arts like I studied judo. I love watching just hours of Olympic judo and Appreciating the art form like I forget the humans involved Teddy Rene who's a heavy heavyweight the most probably the most dominant heavyweight in the history of judo just studying his gripping just the art of it and Who cares if there's shit talking like to me? I? Put all of that aside and just look at the art. It's it's like what I really appreciate about Conor McGregor is His innovation like of movement of Maybe it's romanticized. Maybe you can correct me. I'm just a Cheeto eating fan of mixed martial arts But like I seem to detect more innovation than almost any other fighter that I've Pay attention to in Conor McGregor. I think first I'll answer in two parts. I think well, I'm not gonna answer the first part It's just a comment because you didn't ask the question. What was the question? I don't even remember It's about the the how Conor McGregor fans are very emotional and Conor McGregor detractors are very emotional I think fans become very emotional They become cheerleaders of someone like Conor McGregor or Donald Trump because they see that person exhibiting the qualities that they themselves lack And so they become cheerleaders for that right and I think that for the most part People who are detractors of Conor McGregor's they're not really Conor McGregor detractors. They're detractors of Conor supporters There's a beef that they have with the people in that bucket I like it's not really a problem and that applies probably in our current political climate right Donald Trump with the left and the right there it's more about like they They actually don't like on the others the caricature the most extreme versions of what they see in this Orders of the other side. Yeah, it's good point. But I think the more interesting thing is the fighter himself So let's put the supporters aside. I would I would say that you know what some people know and some people don't know is that Conor's base is in karate and the karate style of Conor McGregor Stephen Thompson of Liotta Machida That type of distance management a lot of times we think as martial artists we think that the sport version of the art we've chosen to pursue somehow taints the authenticity in the effectiveness of it But point karate is what led to that in-and-out distance management style of Conor of Liotta and of Stephen Thompson They all kind of use it a little bit differently but they use it very effectively all three of them and that comes from a world of trying to kind of like Step in land contact on you from my point and then get back out before you can counter strike me Right, and that's where that comes from Conor is blessed to have longer arms than someone his height probably normally has and his movement is just So fluid he's so athletic with The hinges of his body the knees and the hips and the swivel of his body, which is also the hips and the shoulders his movement his distance and the way he sets people up for the straight left hand while you're circling away from it and he Can still land it which is what he did a Chad Mendes hit him with a straight left while he was circling away from it That is something that is a very beautiful to watch and Sometimes people see the kicks and they see all the flashy snap kicks and the sidekicks All that stuff is doing is setting people up for the left hand. It's all it's doing. It's you're corralling people you're funneling people or you're leading the dance and you're bringing them to a spot where you know, you can land that left hand and His ability to do that is masterful People constantly shit on his ability to grapple and you know Because a couple of his losses have been to jujitsu guys or grapplers, but they've been two really good guys Like anyone who's gonna sit here and tell me Conor McGregor is not a good grappler go grapple him. Yeah Let me see you grapple him Let me see you grapple him to that point. I'll also say a lot of people will use Conor McGregor's X guard sweep on Nate Diaz as evidence to his high-level grappling in that fight to which I would also counter Nate Diaz didn't fight that off because he knew he was so much better at jujitsu off the bottom He didn't even care if he got swept. So is Conor McGregor innovative? Absolutely Is he one of the best fighters ever? It's tough to say because he's such a cash cow that he was fed people. I firmly believe no One who who put that Conor McGregor could be fight together thought could be would win Wow, I Remember so at that time it was not completely clear There was a myth of the great could be right wasn't completely clear. How good is he really? So that's interesting and it was unclear. How good is Conor also, right like what? because because I think to me Maybe part of my admiration Conor McGregor is rooted in the fact that I thought there's no way he beats Jose Aldo and I thought there's no definitely no way he beats Eddie Alvarez. And so like when he did I was like I had to like my My brain was like like there's something broken. It was like shut down like on windows like froze We have to rethink this like this is a special human that people who argue He's not even in the running of like top 20 is You know If you look at the number of defenses for example of his belt that he had very very little but like to me I'm one of those people is back to our discussion of like do moments make great fighters that I think Just being able to be Jose Aldo and I would argue in his prime. Some people might disagree in this In In a way where he like figures out the puzzle gets in his head the entirety of the picture and then to be I Mean Eddie Alvarez would he be considered a really strong wrestler? like like or Not not strong wrestlers a strong striker and wrestlers that could the whole combination of it and also what's the other wrestler? He fought Chad Mendes chairman. So let me comment on all those if I may so I was at the Chad Mendes fight live. Yeah, and There was a jiu-jitsu tournament. We're out in Vegas And so me my best friend came out and we got some tickets That night was supposed to be the first Aldo fight Aldo got hurt like right after I bought the tickets they pulled Chad Mendes in he was a little bit out of shape Whatever. You still got to fight the fight but I Don't I don't want to use that fight as evidence to Connors greatness because you know, they pulled Chad Mendes You know, he was like hunting and drinking beers in the woods and was a little out of shape Yeah, but if you want to talk about greatness like that surpasses your in-ring accomplishments. I was in the stands that night and The people that came from Ireland to see Connor fight that night single-handedly Set the market for hotel room prices and airline tickets to Vegas that weekend These motherfuckers were all dressed like Connor in the stands They had wool suits on and big beards and the whole thing I mean, they might probably wear pocket watches like I never saw more people Trying to be someone else never saw more people try to be someone else I mean, there's a level of is there a level of greatness in that? I mean, I don't know how to like part all that out. You're somebody who doesn't admire that I love that in the sense The following sense I think and people don't seem to hold this belief at all. But to me fighting is not just This isn't like a quiet street fight that nobody watches. This is also a spectacle. This is also a story, right? There's like there's a professional wrestling element to this This is not like you you think it's just about fight if it was just about fighting you wouldn't I mean There's a story to it. I guess is what I'm trying to get to it and like greatness has to incorporate that like people that Criticize again, I might be wrong on this, but I honestly think that Conor McGregor Not nearly as much as Khabib, but he he's a true martial artist I think he respects his opponents despite the talk I if maybe I'm misreading it, but it feels like he is a storyteller like Jail son and type of like he's constructed this image to tell it to to play the story like just the way he acts after The fight the honor he shows to his opponents. Yeah, there's a real martial artist in there and to dismiss the fact that The the story of the fight is part of it because he doesn't just shit talk This is what people don't seem to understand. He's good at shit talking very good and I'm with you on basically everything you said I think that there's greatness to that and I think that he understands how to sell a fight and I think What he did to Jose Aldo by getting in his head helped him win that fight He insulted Jose Aldo and his country so much that he knew Aldo was gonna come forward right into that left hook Was that fight in Brazil? By the way, do you remember I don't recall I know he insulted all of Brazil Yeah, I'm not sure. Yes in Brazil But when he tried to do that to Khabib you could tell that he just was not gonna get in Khabib said Khabib was unflappable But there is there is definitely something great about how he moves people You know the Irish are are like I mean Connors walkout music like for people From Ireland and of Irish descent like that shit is like very deep. Yeah, you know that it's very emotional Song I was to be honest a little bit upset with Khabib that he didn't rise I admire or that entire culture, but there's an aspect to where he could have risen to the occasion of there's the same kind of depth of love of country that Russia has And it's there in Dagestan Dagestan is a little weird in the terms of like but he could have Especially with Putin's support where for a bit the full Russian hat right of like this is the great nation like rise above the The culture of Dagestan which is a small-town boy with the small-town values of family and all those kinds of things There's a moment where you inspire entire nations like the step up and be the foil to the to the great Conor McGregor work the where also could be becomes the foil to like like both both of them at the foil to each other and become like That fight was already a great fight, right, but it could have been something historic Ali versus freight I mean it could have been really historic and I would argue I'm I guess the biggest disappointment I have and I understand it and I also honor as a martial artist, but To I'm disappointed that could be doesn't seem to even consider the possibility of doing in Moscow Mm-hmm fight number two. So and because that could be narrative wise if they do it, right? That's one of the could be one of the greatest fights in history yeah, I think in terms of Khabib and inspiring a country is it possible that by staying true to the values that he had his entire career and getting to the the zenith of Of his art form and still doing it in that humble way. Isn't it possible that that inspires? Yeah, 100% so I should I should clarify that I think they're just hearing from people from my fellow comrades know is they love that they love they love that but they There's also a brash beer chugging shit-talking thing that people really like about Connor now I do love that but the beautiful narrative would have been the clash the real clash of those cultures so could be Chooses to live the culture by walking away There's also like a clash of them sort of walking not walking away from the fire by walking Into the fire of this of this brashness. It's the sort of The cool collected Like calmness of the Dagestan people. It's like you were talking about the site you have brothers Yeah, so did they just view it totally differently and you know There are stereotypes about the Irish where there may be potentially a louder more boisterous culture And I've heard of that. Yeah, and I mean I thought they each played the their part perfectly and All those things that you're describing could have happened Maybe could be steps up and he carries the proverbial flag so to speak for a nation of people and they go to battle But the fight if it plays out the same way is still the fight. Yeah, and it was a it was an okay fight It wasn't a great fight. It was you know, the fight was okay. Yeah, and I think that Again, I don't have any idea what could be his obligations to his family are I don't I don't think either of those guys You know is want for more money To do another fight is just a legacy thing. It's just about You know fulfilling some some part of a legacy and I I just Um, I admire the possibility of a great legacy of this that is bigger than either of the fighters I think what could be he kind of He's not as concerned about legacy. I think right there's a your promoters dream because you want the rematch And the only thing that makes more money than the rematch is the trilogy You got split the trail you split the the rematch You hope Connor wins and then you had the trilogy fight and you now you're all in yeah Yeah, I can't get to could be a sad head But I know Putin just the game the entirety of it, especially at the time, especially if it was Trump as president If he was as president at the time and and Putin and in Russia and just Knowing how masterful Connor is at like because Connor would would be a different Connor I think he would be a calmer Connor like there would be a different Like because you don't want to be over-the-top Connor with the Russian people, right? No, that's it's like That's it's like when dangerous around beat that's that was the episode in the hotel in Brooklyn. Yeah when some of the Russian guys confronted Artem and then Connor came over it's not but the danger of that I mean, there's the the element of just like real danger and the real there's almost of war. It's uh, I don't know it's It was like when when uh, when Chael Sonnen was talking so much smack at maybe it was against Vanderlei Silva I I don't know and there's one of those fights where they just didn't he was gonna make it out of Brazil. Yeah. Yeah Americans don't get it. Yeah, people take some of that shit in different parts of the world very very seriously Yeah, but that's what makes it beautiful. That's uh, that's what makes a great story and I think fighting is very much about the stories not just about this the The particular outcomes of a fight or the skill set matching or like the chess of the of the fight It's also about the story of the greater like Context of societies of warring we're like warring cultures. We're still we're still good. We're We're no longer can have great big hot wars between nations because of nuclear weapons, this is our wars that we can have and And You know in some sense I feel robbed of the great war that could have happened It doesn't mean there aren't lots of wars going on. But yeah, the big one is not gonna happen There's too much of a balance of power with you know, nuclear weapons and technology and stuff, but it's not the end of war No, do you think there's always gonna be war? I Think they'll always be war especially in underdeveloped parts of the world Isn't there always underdeveloped relatively parts of the world? Yeah, I mean at some point though you'd think I mean the way that you know Technology is expanding and we're bringing technology to weird parts of the world that you wouldn't Think of as technologically advanced the way that The Chinese are inhabiting certain areas for mining purposes and things like that. I think Underdeveloped parts of the world will get developed quickly. I Just wondered like what the nature of that war might be it could be cyber. It could be all those kinds of things I think in developed nations, it's gonna be cyber I think that's probably the next phase of war But I mean, I think you talk about parts of the world like the Middle East and it's just still gonna be warring tribal factions We can't even begin to understand what those people are fighting about over there yet Yet everyone sitting in America on their couch has an opinion like You can't even begin to understand it. I sure can't. Yeah, it's back to the principles discussion it's back to the principles discussion when when when what's violated is much deeper than just kind of anything we can even in a middle-class existence Can't even comprehend a lot of times American soldiers will go to war because that's what they're told to do and they might maybe they Disagree with the orders and maybe they agree with the orders, but I get a sense that people in the Middle East fighting All believe in what they're fighting for. It's not it's not a thing where they're told to go do it I believe they're they really believe that what they're doing is the right thing and they're defending some sort of principle Are you generally optimistic about? The future speaking of war of human civilization. Do you think will? like You know people talk about the Fermi paradox and asking, you know Why haven't aliens visited us if you believe they haven't visited us? you know one of the thoughts is that there's a kind of a great filter that Intelligent civilization reach a point where it destroys itself naturally. So that's why we haven't seen them. They don't last very long there does seem to be a kind of We seem to be advancing faster and faster and faster We keep developing more and more powerful ways of destroying ourselves in all kinds of ways not even you know To just even to say nuclear weapons alone, but there's all kinds of new ways engineer pandemics nanotechnology AGI all those kinds of things It's it seems to be that the argument that we go are we going to destroy ourselves in some kind of creative way very shortly is Is not too crazy of an argument to make are you more optimistic or pessimistic? About the prospects of human civilization and maybe the 22nd century Like is it possible that your generation is the last generation to be alive on earth? No, but I wouldn't say that five generations from now that won't be that that could be true. I Guess I think of it really selfishly. I'm a big believer that When your time here on earth is over the Overwhelmingly vast majority of people will be forgotten within 12 calendar months People with no family will be forgotten sooner And so I don't give a lot of thought to what will happen to earth or mankind when I'm gone I'm I give more thought to maximizing my time here now and I want to do it in a way where I don't I'm not overtly hindering the future of civilization or humankind, but I'm definitely taking a me first approach to how I live on earth Do you have a philosophy behind why you have or don't have kids on? This topic because for many people when they have kids There's a sense It's almost like a genetic sense or something like that where all of a sudden you do start caring about what happens five generations from now I Mean, I think I'm just too selfish I mean, I'm that's I think that's the easy answer like I I know that your whole life has to change, you know, you're you're you're focused everything shifts and just don't want to do that and also like I think that there's a level of I guess if I have to like really unpack it, there's probably a level of Lack of hope in the future like I don't think it's I don't think the world and humanity is going in the right direction Direction What is the right direction look like? I think the right direction Looks like people coming back together and in a more Impactful human way in person touching feeling Talking face to face. So all the things you're describing is what we had as you mentioned before when you were like a teenager Yeah, so the state of the world but that's because your mind was formed then it very well could be a very well could be It's very possible that the virtual reality worlds that will create will be actually a much higher level of existence In fact, like now we're getting we're moving slowly away from tribalism perhaps you could argue the ideas of nations and we're going we're moving into the realm of ideas and it could be a higher form of existence where we're sort of moving past the constraints of our meat vehicles Into the space of our minds. It depends what you value because when you sit here you talk about it You know and you're talking about these things in these humongous levels on these macro levels Yeah, and I don't think a lot of people view it that way I think a lot of people view it as like what I'm what kind of pizza am I getting tonight? Yeah, like it's a bit it's a much different outlook and sure the the virtual world that's a on the horizon I'm sure it's got benefits and what and will help people But is it gonna help the things that you find valuable like was it gonna help commerce? Okay. Sure Is that the thing you find the most valuable? Is it gonna help communication? Well, it'll help disseminating information Is it gonna help explain the information you're disseminating? Probably not. Is it gonna hinder interpersonal communication? Absolutely. And those are things I find valuable interpersonal communication talking to people like the like It saddens me when I go into a restaurant and there's five-year-old kids who like, you know Slamming away on an iPad and can't make eye contact with anybody or teenagers who don't say please and thank you when they order From the waitress like that to me is wrong that shit's wrong And I don't know this for a fact, but I do attribute that to you know Using technology as a crutch when we're raising raising kids. Yeah, you know, I think those are Those are things that I find valuable. I tried to empathize I mean, I agree with you as a person who grew up in a certain age, but like prior to the internet I suppose But or at least solidified the early philosophies of the way see the world prior to the During the time of AOL let's put it this way What was your aim screen name I never had one okay, dude, I I was the last person I knew to get a cell phone I was so anti all that stuff because I just felt like I I didn't want to be a part of it. I did not want to be a part of it I I joined the underground forum about MMA in 2000 or 2001 when I first started training I think right at the tail end I got a myspace, but I didn't have any of that stuff and I didn't want any of it I don't know why I just was I was not into it. I felt like like What are the good things that are gonna come out of it? Oh money, I'm gonna get my package in two days instead of four days Does that make my life better? I try to I try to deeply empathize with a lot of experiences of other people and like one of the things I love like the smell of paper books and books in general and Early on this is like five years ago. I just gave away all my books and I said, you know, I'm really going to try to fall in love with the books in the same way I did before but now with a Kindle or Not a Kindle like paper white whatever the ebook you reader e-reader and I'm still not there but I've been kind of trying to Fall in love with that experience and the same way I try to think like teenagers are really into tick-tock now like making these short videos. I Try to consider the possibility that their existence will be a much happier one than I've had Because of this kind of interaction it's it for my sort of skeptical perspective. It's like the attention span is so short they don't really deeply think or deeply experience things they construct a social layer that they present to the world and they work on creating this social layer like the presentation to the world much more than really sitting alone with their thoughts and the Sadnesses and their hopes and dreams and fears and like working on the project that is their Their own like actual person that exists in this physical world as opposed to work on the project of a particular Social platform, but they show but like perhaps that project Like who cares who you are in the physical space maybe What you are is what your Instagram shows that's the more important project to work on. Well, what's reality is it? What's reality perception is reality, right? So how other people perceive this constructed thing? That's their reality of you. But is it your reality like that? I mean like we said earlier It's what what you want how you want people to see you is very rarely in line with how you really are or how you see yourself and I mean I can remember being like a 13 year old kid and like when you go through a bunch of you know weird 13 year old kid shit like Sitting in my room like turning a red light on and listening to like a sad record and like, you know Trying to figure out what's going on inside. Sometimes you like it. Sometimes you don't like it but I feel like those experiences are lost on kids constantly connected to a phone and like You know, I don't know what the remedy for those situations is nowadays like I don't know Do they make a tick-tock video? Do they they blog about it? Do they you know make a video or? nobody blogs anymore bro, whatever man or a Video a story about oh, this is what happened to me and blah blah blah blah blah Does that actually help them work it out? Or does it just create more noise and more static on how to get to the root of the problem and learn about themselves? I don't know what future social networks are exactly I do know on a shallow level does feel good when somebody clicks like on something I think that is more of a drug than an actual deep long-lasting fulfilling happiness but perhaps there's a way to make a social network that does lead to Long-lasting happiness that's somehow detached from the physical meat space I don't know but it feels like you want to give that a chance Do you think when people are liking things on social media? Do you think there's just a group of people an overwhelming majority of people that are gonna like whatever you put out there? They're clicking like and then there's another section of people that just constantly scroll and like scroll and like and scroll and like Like do you think? When you get a like on Content you put out that that like perhaps came from someone who normally doesn't like your content But like you've just changed their mind on something or you you've turned them around on it Yeah, I tend to think that when I get likes on social media Those are just the people that like all my shit no matter what I say Like they probably don't even read it like I could you know Put the most preposterous thing up there and you're still gonna get a handful of the same exact likes That's interesting, but I tend to the way I see likes you're kind of you said multiple things. I think in one sense you see Social media as like a battleground of ideas and like is it kind of indicated like the best possible like is an indicator of like of the Of you winning over somebody on an idea and they really appreciate that idea That's the best possible like to me a like is just two strangers Smiling at each other like it's like a moment of like like I Got you, bro. Yeah, I got you, bro. Yeah. Yeah like fist bump like yeah, we're in this fucking thing together We're in this fucking thing together. This whole thing doesn't make any sense, but we're in this together and I Yeah, it's possible for likes to be that I don't think the actual clicking of a like I think social media at its best might be that or it's like I got you bro and it's a large-scale as opposed to kind of this weird like crazy pool of dopamine where everyone's just obsessed with there's likes and likes and and then the Division drives like more of this like weird anxious Engagement. I think that's just the dark version of it in the early days of social media I think you called it a battleground of ideas, but I think social media is nothing but a battleground of fragile egos Well, but humans are fragile egos. I mean maybe but I think in moments people I Think particularly on social media. They're the most fragile like Would you be doing all the things you're doing? What would you be doing if you weren't? If you weren't podcasting and posting the things you do on social media, what would you be doing? You'd probably be much the same guy Right, but I think that on social media the fragile ego people What you see on social media is not what they'd be doing without social media Does that make any sense? Like you're you're probably your mission is probably somewhat congruent your path. You're just utilizing social media But I think a lot of people social media has changed their path and and now they're doing something totally Foreign to them And they're only able to do it maybe because of social media. I think you're focusing on a particular moment in time of people in their Less great moments like in their less great version of themselves I think you're just focusing on the masses struggling to To become the best version of themselves and then you yeah sure for stretches of time whether it's days Weeks or months. You could be a shitty person on the internet. I think you're Focusing on that and unfortunately social media platforms emphasize they love it when you're like that when you're not doing great in your own in your own life because It increases anxiety increase engagement Makes you more susceptible to an argument and then really get pulled into like conspiracy theories all that kind of stuff But it's the other side works, too I think there's also the people who are on social media like fronting like they're these positive figures and like, you know Go one of the gym like whatever it is the positivity that they spew out but in real life They're the most negative fucks you've ever met in your life and they're just so full of crap and it's just you people playing to an audience it's like you like you said like they It's like a politician sometimes like a politician wakes up one day and they decide who's the group I can pander to the best to get The most likes equals votes. Yeah, and it's the same thing on social media people wake up and whether it's conscious or not What's the group I can pander to the best to get the most likes is it the positivity motivated crowd? Is it the what was me crowd? Like what is it? Who's gonna give me the most likes? That's what I'll do I don't know how to argue against that. I guess it's it's uh It rings true what you're saying, but I just kind of refuse to believe it I guess I'm pandering to the optimistic crowd like I met with my marketing team and I just feel that Love has the the best What do you call it now, I don't know there's a lot of people that accuse me of being like exactly that which is like Why are you always being positive? It's like well because I I'd like to be that yeah But I don't I wouldn't consider you someone who panders. No, but you know it I guess what I'm saying is like It's easy to say that everyone is pandering but like maybe they're just trying I I do believe that social media platforms could encourage people when they're trying to be the best version of themselves Whatever that is it could be like Conor McGregor talking shit. It could be just being positive It could be actually creating cool things in this world Putting out instructional videos for jiu-jitsu or like inspiring students to competition. I don't know all those kinds of things educational content. I Think that people are trying like I tend to believe that people want to be good like like they want to be successful whatever that definition of success is and they're kind of struggling to do that and there's just awkward at it at first and like it's easy to focus on the awkwardness and The the stumbling around us people have that and they start shitting on each other It's easy to kind of focus in on that, but I think that's just like people, you know white belts There's more white belts in the world than there are black boats, but you gotta give them a chance to kind of grow I think on social media if you put your stuff out there Whatever your stuff is your content your views or whatever you let the chips fall where they may Like that's a different thing than being like I'm gonna I'm gonna tweak what I normally might say and put it up this way Because I want these people to like it and in terms I also think I have a different Viewpoint than you do on people wanting to be successful. I actually don't think that many people want to be successful I think people want to have the appearance of wanting to be successful But to be successful takes a shitload of work and most people don't want to put that work in So they craft this persona of a person who's trying really hard, but just can't catch the break or you know These motherfuckers with getting back on my grind. You've never been on a grind. You've been on the couch I still disagree with you. I get it. I get it you you that's your foil You enjoyed that guy in the couch with the cheetah. That's you. That's that's your motivation Just own it be like don't be like back on the ground get back on the couch. Yeah Well you you you're like David Goggins who was like talking shit to the one guy with the eating Cheetos and in in so doing inspires millions to like to actually pursue their success I get it, but I just think that most people really do want to be Successful and are like are trying to work hard and they keep failing So I mean, but why is it why is it continue? I'm sorry to interrupt you But like let's take a person who's overweight. Yeah, do you not think that person wants to be skinny? Of course, they want to be skinny They just don't want it enough to put the pizza or the pie down and go to the gym They want it, but they want it to be easy. Of course. They want to be skinny Well, everyone wants it to be easy, right? And of course people people want to be successful, but do they want it enough to do the work? I don't think they do. I think the easy thing to do is to to create a An outward facing persona of the person who really wants it and you get the same reward From a lot of people as the person who actually is successful very few people differentiate from the person who's found success and The person who's showing you how they're trying to get success on social media people see that as the same I see I see you're going after the marketing dollar that Represents the the people that want to work hard. Yeah, I like it you Started a podcast recently. Oh, yeah Called which people probably from this conversation can I guess we didn't really talk about politics much or the fact that your business owner The fact that you're a red-blooded American and love this country America we didn't really talk about politics much I mean, it's not like we're gonna be America. We don't really talk about that. But from the name of the podcast I can probably infer it and the name is please allow me Good name What have you learned from doing this podcast What's your hope of doing this podcast for people should definitely listen to you have a few episodes out you're damn good at it Which is very interesting I'm sure you'll evolve and change but so this is like the early days. I'm curious to see where it goes but what like what's your thinking around it as a As an intellectual putting your thoughts out into the world I think that one of the things that Kovac did when we're all kind of in lockdown was As a business owner, it made me take stock of what's the future of brick-and-mortar businesses and I've always been reluctant to Be an online presence in any way just because it's not my thing because I believe that I'm a force of nature and people need To experience me, right? And the the few characters that Twitter has a phase. Yeah The force of nature. There's John Clark. I want you to feel physically uncomfortable around me I this three hours of me being physically uncomfortable I'm scared for my life and so I thought that that would be one of the ways in which I could increase like I I came to the conclusion that With the lockdown and potential future lockdowns, you know In order to pay my mortgage and you know my bar tab and my grub hubs out of control That I would need to find ancillary ways to door dash slash Lex You don't want to use grub hub grub hub sucks door that they actually do so dash. No, I'm just kidding Just walk to your local Food or 11. Yeah and get and get the food Don't you can order 7-eleven from door dash or from post code Lex? Okay, I'm sorry But anyway, I thought it was like oh, I should probably increase a little bit my online presence and what would be a way to do that that would be fun for me and entertaining and I thought well a Lot of people yourself included that I know have done some podcasts and I find that inspiring and I'm fortunate enough to know a bunch of cool motherfuckers that you know I can talk to about a lot of a wide range of topics Then there is sorry to drop and there's an aspect to which podcasting does capture the force of nature better in in the digital form Podcasting captures the force of nature of a human being better than other mediums perhaps. Yeah, definitely. There's that I just felt like You know, you know when it's midnight and you're in the bar and And you get the sense that you know, the bar is gonna close in 90 minutes and you think you know Not enough people have seen me yet. And maybe we should go to another bar. So more people can see me Yeah I feel like Podcasting is like is like that for me not enough people have heard my thoughts and I feel like My mom raised me to be a giver. She didn't want me to be selfish and I have these thoughts that I think That I think it'd be a waste if you didn't give it to the world people seem to really enjoy them Yeah, no, I enjoy well while I've probably been on my best behavior today on this episode of the podcast so if you want the the uncensored unfiltered The full spectrum that the force of nature is John Clark you go to do you go you go to the podcast you funny enough I think you're drinking throughout most of the podcast. Yeah. Yeah tequila So they only last like an hour because you seem to like I'm guessing that you just lose it So like it's like Cinderella turns into a frog or whatever. One of the things I'm learning is Sometimes you have great conversations when you're drunk and sometimes you don't like I was I went into it with the right drunk edit sober mentality Yes, Hemingway Hemingway. Yes, but turns out that Sometimes you don't have that much to edit when you're super shit-faced and so I've been scaling that back a little bit and what do you mean exactly by that? Like where does it go wrong when you're drunk? I'm curious about that because It gets you especially when you have a personal relationship with the person that you're talking to rather than trying to put some ideas on display for other people to hear and maybe talk about You wind up just having like a conversation with your bro about inside jokes and things like that It's like it's not that interesting No one wants to like watch you know go to a bar and watch two people at the sitting there getting drunk and talking to each other is different than listening to Like strong discourse. Yes one interesting thing as a fan of Joe Rogan I'm a fan I've been a fan of Joe Rogan for a long time and he has his friends over a lot right and there there's a Aspect to those three four or five hour conversations that I really enjoy there's a magic to those I think he taught the world that those kinds of long-form conversations can work the what you forget is Joe Rogan is a comedian his friends are also celebrities like They know what it's like to be on the mic. They know There is a challenge to actually having your friends on a microphone Totally like that. They've never this is the first time they've been on a microphone yeah, and that's actually what you've been doing, which is a very interesting experiment and You find that some are more awkward than others like they're trying to find like What do I do with this kind of thing? Why why do you not talk to strangers? Why did you go with people that you're actually no? So the simple answer is the people that I selected are both interesting and I thought would be good at talking But then I noticed the thing you just mentioned my buddy Paul did the first one and Paul's a wild man And if you went out with Paul, he can talk about a bazillion topics to a certain to a significant A level of depth right? He's got a good understanding and he's got a unique perspective on a lot of things and I think he was the first guy invited on my podcast and it was almost like He was on a little bit less than natural about it. And then by the time he loosened up with some drinks he was It just we were all shit-faced. There's a face shift Totally. Yeah, totally. And so he's gonna come back on and he'll be more comfortable with it And and it'll probably be awesome because he's a great person to talk to I had my friend Dave on who's a restaurateur and a musician That that one will be released pretty soon But yesterday I had a guy on who you might really enjoy listening to who's a friend of mine. His name is Mark Clem He's an endurance athlete and he's been compared. He's been called the white Dave Goggins and He talks about like those comparisons and what he hates about it and the various events and stuff and he's just a guy who's just always kind of like natural and like I knew he'd be great to get on the podcast and So I started with friends who I thought could handle it and who also are just really interesting people and And I did it so that I could also establish a level of comfort because it was a new thing for me And they I knew that they wouldn't really give a shit what I was doing and be like, hey, this is cool I'm going over JC's house. We're gonna drink some tequila and talk shit. There's just gonna be a microphone there this time I mean, it's amazing what you're doing the freedom of it. I mean, you're not currently doing an advertisement or any of that kind of stuff He's just exploring your voice is one of the mediums there. You're just trying it out my 11 subscribers know what I'm about your left It's in the double digits For both you and I do you have advice for me as a Podcaster and for yourself as a podcast like if you if you were to think like you're gonna do say I mean who knows But say you do a thousand more episodes, right? I can imagine a world worth That that your life continues in that direction That this is like a little parallel like for me. This thing is like a little side hobby, but it's also one that's deeply fulfilling So not just from a business perspective, which is not the way I think about I just think of from a life human perspective. It's I probably wouldn't have this kind of conversation with you off mic like this long this deep this attentive There's something really fulfilling about these conversations. So what advice would you have for me? What advice do you have for yourself or have you not introspected this that deeply? I have I have advice I think the first advice I would give to you is I think you should Have me on more often Yeah, that's first first and second is go on your podcast and Well, I would say I would say you come on my podcast when you're ready Yeah, when you feel like the product that I'm putting out Would benefit from your presence and vice versa not not as a not as a favor to a bro But at the right time I do sense actually it's an interesting. There's a dance to it, which is Like Joe Roe. I recently did like Joe Rogan Had a conversation with me on this podcast. There's a very specific kind of thing where You you're helping each other out Yeah, but the timing on that has to be right, right, you know, like if that makes any sense You're like supporting each other. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't it doesn't make a difference You would think right because it's it's just people talking doesn't matter what microphones, but he changes things It doesn't there's an order to the guests that I've had on and the next guest that I'll have on will be a Friend we have in common and we'll be talking about Teaching and how to teach different styles of teaching and what you're teaching all these other things your mind saying who Sean Fisher and I think there's an order to It's not scientific but it's based on my gut. Is it astrologically based? What do you mean it's not scientific your your gut so you have a sense Like Joe Rogan, for example Tries to do left right? He tries to alternate like this this gut feeling of like these bins of people and he tries to alternate world views It's interesting like he kind of so that he doesn't feel like it like it's Shake it constantly shakes him It's more about him like constantly pulls him in multiple directions about like how he sees the world and that keeps him balanced That keeps the conversation kind of exciting. That's interesting I did it in a way where I Knew Paul was gonna be wild and we might get a little out of control and like have some technical Hiccups along the way and then my friend Jake who's a CEO of a pharmaceutical company That was very timely because you know, he was able to speak to vaccines and it was kind of scientific flavored yeah, and what I learned listening back on that is like I learned for myself about I Wasn't asking the next level questions to really draw out great answers and part of it is I You're simultaneously hanging out with a bro But also I was trying to learn something and I didn't learn what I wanted to learn And that's my fault because I didn't ask the questions. He's an expert in that field He doesn't know that I'm an absolute dipshit when it comes to that stuff And so I didn't do a good job And if I don't know what that means the thing I was trying to tease out of him No one who was gonna listen is gonna learn that either. Yeah, so I learned that Then I had the one with soap on which I thought was was pretty good There's the rest. There's also a farmer It's right in a social worker and kind of humble and thoughtful. Yeah thoughtful thoughtful guy It's slower. It's not a wild man that kind of thing Not a wild man in the sense that I'm wild but he does preach this this philosophy of being more wild Like being in touch with nature nature that that kind of right, right, right and then my buddy Dave he came on You know because I love music and I wanted to talk a lot about music and he's one of the most knowledgeable people about music that I know and he's got a restaurant coming up and I Thought my buddy Mark Clem being an endurance athlete like when you hear some of the I didn't even know these things existed that this fucking Kid did he's out of his mind And you know I think Sean and I will have probably the most intellectual conversation that I'll have had on my podcast to date and so there's a little bit of alternating there, but You know, I did it that way So that there's a guy there's a gut feeling behind also that what is there? Where are you going? Do you know where you're going? I'm I don't have a destination, but I want to I Want to see it to its end whether that's it Gets somewhere of its own volition or it takes on a new life at some point and then I know how to drive it where It needs to go I think The advice I have for both of us is I Think I need to No, I don't think so I think for you I see an inner turmoil I see a storm that bruising you because I feel like there's a concern for what you're saying And is it gonna get you is it gonna is it gonna? lead to negative feelings towards you or the thing that you're doing and I feel like we're different people and I have such an easier time saying fuck off to everybody and That's a liberating thing, but it also can keep can keep me from achieving the thing that I want to achieve because I'm so Flippant with opinions that I don't listen to them and let them direct me when they should there's a balance I mean you push back on that. I think you you believe that about yourself and nevertheless your social media presence Indicates otherwise if I were to be very harsh, you're like one of the you know, mentally strongest character wise people I know and yet on social media you don't put your face to the world No, so you like one of the reasons you sense the fear in me, which exists I of course want to let go of it is because I put my face and like my name on things And so when I say something stupid It it hurts when people did say like look that guy said something stupid And so there's a fear of saying something stupid in all of his different forms Like of being my lesser self. It's the same feeling I have in competition of like of losing not just losing losing doesn't matter It's embarrassing myself I like losing being the lesser version of myself and when you put yourself out there in a full way I think you I would venture to say you're also because you like said you you don't you wouldn't give yourself that advice I feel like you're also afraid of standing behind some of the ideas because right now you're doing guerrilla warfare you're you're free to to to be To say things to speak your mind from the sidelines but the moment you're standing and like when people can throw shit at you, I feel like You haven't faced that fire yet. You've been like avoiding that fire. I'm not sure maybe I'm projecting no to a degree You're right. I think like a big thing for me was putting like ads on for like our our jujitsu online like curriculum that was a big thing for me because for several reasons like in the climate of everyone under the Sun having a You know a jujitsu tutorial online and social media not social media necessarily but forums specifically that Critique and shit the bed one thing I have not done that I've thought about doing and probably You're right in your analysis of it is I've not gone the way that I do see you on things like reddit and say hey Reddit I'm doing this like I could easily go to reddit and say hey reddit. I got this website up Here's a here's a sample video or whatever the fuck people doing there. But yeah, you're right I haven't done that and part of it might be because I I I know also If I get suckered in for one second into the negativity I'm gonna become an online warrior and I don't want to be that person. So yeah, you're probably right self-aware about that I mean one of the things I've early on decided is like I'm just gonna be I've always really enjoyed being positive. So I'm going to make sure I stay that way and when there's negativity, it's like I'm not just ignoring it. I'm literally just returning it with positivity I like no I probably am the same way as you most people are with with egos you get you want to become the warrior against the negativity and Like like many wars. There's no winning all right, there's no winning that war online, especially on the internet and so in that sense that's been a journey to try to To face the fire of the negativity and it's not actually that bad. It sounds like very dramatic There's not many people that are negative, but it's like when you put advertisements So you put your face on an instructional or something like that, right? It just there's an aspect to it which you're being a salesman you're being a gimmicky thing, right? It just feels wrong and people point out look that guy's a fraud like it's fake Look, he's trying but those people are going to be out there and if you're like trying to do your best trying to be authentic and not trying to like be a Snake oil salesman and being like the shady kind of salesman I Think they keep you honest. They keep you honest being the most authentic self and podcasting is like The best medium because you're being real those out one hour Plus that you put out there. That's like real John. That's not a Like people people fall in love with that and then that's that the beautiful aspect of podcasting is there's no Long form doesn't give any Possibility for you not to be authentic, right? And that's why it's a magical medium I the the tough thing is you're not, you know popularity Takes time. Yeah popularity and so like you should shouldn't be doing it for that reason and I don't It's not the thing that really drives me Yeah, is there three books technical fiction philosophical that had an impact on you? Like these are books that you kind of return to that you enjoy and they were had you know There do you find profound some way I would say like probably the thing I read is in one of Emerson's essays that I read at a you know point in my life where I needed that type of thing and I read self-reliance and you know He's got a ton of good essays, but I thought self-reliance was probably the most impactful to me You know, I've read later in life like a handful of you know existential authors and They're all great But at the time a lot of it has to do with timing and when I read self-reliance and it was about the individual That was really good and made it was impactful. There's also a book called a Jonathan Livingston Siegel by Richard Richard Bach I think and It's kind of along the same lines It's about this Siegel who you know wants to break conformity and learn to fly and do all these other great things And so it's a very short read so if people are interested in that that's good The book which I was lucky enough to read before the movie ever even came out Which is just a pleasure of mine was a American psycho Just from a writing standpoint. Yeah, I found that the writing was was awesome Brett Easton Ellis is the author of that and several other books who have like intertwining characters He's a New England prep school guy. And so a lot of like the stories and a lot of the visuals visuals rang true for me and anyone who can write four pages of prose on like a Huey Lewis album and kudos to you and I also would say no one will do this but I Would at some point read as much of one of the big three religious texts of pot as possible It really gives you perspective. There are so many overlapping stories in the in In of religious texts and then the way that they're written gives you a unique perspective on different people throughout the world and you know if you're Roman Catholic maybe don't read the Bible read one of the other texts and that would be an interesting take but I'm Embarrassed to say that first of all, I've never read the Bible which is embarrassing to say It's like I read a bunch of stuff about the Bible not the Bible itself and the same not equating them But I haven't read Marx directly I haven't read Mein Kampf by Hitler directly and it feels like sometimes because you think like it's better to read stuff about the books but ultimately you want because like the analysis will be better in our texts that Followed it, but there's value to actually reading like the actual words Yeah, there's this power in the words that there's a reason why like the Bible is one of the most impactful books ever You know and it's it's in it's in those words and it's a value to return to those words The Communist Manifesto is truly frightening if you read it in and like modern context It's worth reading yeah, we're three and so is mine come not obviously well It's not obvious, but it is not very well written but all the ideas that led to the evil that is Hitler are all in there, which is fascinating to think about because probably some of the world leaders at the time should have probably read the books you he outlined everything he's gonna do You've mentioned Offline you mentioned an Emerson quote. I really like so let's try to end on this powerful quote It's easy in the world to live after the world's opinion It's easy in solitude to live after your own the great man is who in the midst of the world Keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude What does this quote mean to you it's kind of reinforces the idea that you're here to live your life and that even when people are trying to Influence you or Influence you or comment on the decisions that you make for your life. You should have the strength to stick by living your life the way you want to live it that There's one immutable truth for you, and it doesn't apply to everyone and so people who? People who Frown upon or Or judge the way that you live because it's not air quotes conventional their opinion should not be something that Impacts the choices that you make you're in a relationship now Yes, that deeply meaningful or is it are you ultimately still alone? Is this you're still just a man in the cold of the of the life that is suffering? No, I'm a man who's warm nestled in a bosom. I I don't think there's a better way to end John Your friend you're my coach I'm sure we'll talk many more times in the future. Thanks for wasting all your time with me today Thanks, brother. Thanks Lex. I had an awesome time. Hope to be back soon Thanks for listening to this conversation with John Clark and thank you to our sponsors They're a gun the device I use for post-workout muscle recovery Magic spoon low-carb keto friendly cereal that I think is delicious ate sleep a mattress that cools itself and gives me yet another reason to enjoy sleep and Finally cash app the app I use to send money to friends Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast If you enjoy this thing subscribe on YouTube review it with five stars and up a podcast follow on Spotify Support on patreon or connect with me on Twitter and Lex Friedman And now let me leave you with some words from Miyamoto Musashi Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time